Jon and Justin talk about the patience, mercy, and gentleness of Christ--and how much we all need to be reminded of that. The guys also discuss self-righteousness and confusion of law and gospel in the pulpit.
Regular Episode
MEMBERS Podcast Transcripts
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. Jon and I were talking, before we recorded the regular episode today, about how the aim of so many preachers seems to be to convince folks that Jesus is aiming to create the army of the disciplined or the army of the dedicated, and that if you're not disciplined and dedicated enough, then you should be afraid. Obviously, that's not how we understand Christ at all. I'm thinking about the army or the group of people that we are aiming to pull together and mobilize; it's an army of people that understand that they are weak and in need of Christ, and want to help other weak and needy people find the rest that is ours in Jesus. Continue to spread this message as far and wide, as you are able, and join with us in doing so. That's the goal of Semper Reformanda as it's going to be coming to you in the weeks ahead. We hope it's helpful. We're excited.
We want to keep this conversation going today about the nature and the posture of Jesus toward us. I'll just go and say I was having a pretty not great morning. It's a Tuesday, not a Wednesday. It's kind of a Monday morning in my world. It's raining. I don't know that I feel like talking about much at all. And the subject matter today that we ended up landing on was great. Even as we were talking before we recorded, it was good for me; it was very good for me even during the recording. I'm just so thankful to God for Jesus and His posture toward a wretch like me. I know everybody listening to this feels the same way. If Jon and I get indignant about people that present Jesus in other ways, there's a reason for it: because it's really unhelpful.
Jon Moffitt: This is like training time. For those of you that are like, "Yes, yes, yes—Reformation. I want this. I want to do this." We want to help train you on how to think through these things and how to help other people. You are part of this Reformation group that is rescuing people who are in utter despair. Let me encourage you with those you may be shepherding, and I'm probably talking to some people who are thinking, "I am that smoldering wick that enough of a wind is going to snuff me out. I am so exhausted." Let me tell you that even though Justin and I have a lot of great theology, we feel this. He was just describing to you how he feels.
Justin Perdue: If you feel like your faith is weak, like you don't even know that you've got much faith at all, Christ is for you. He really is. I definitely feel like a smoldering wick and a bruised reed often, and have throughout my Christian life. You are not alone. Far from it.
Jon Moffitt: My encouragement to you is this: often, it can be the weight of life, it could be the weight of our health, and it can also be the weight of our sin that makes us feel like this bruised reed and the smoldering wick. Let me just encourage you with the words of Paul. Again, he is upset with them for misappropriating the law. This is Galatians. Then towards the latter part of Galatians, he says, "Brothers, if any of you is caught into transgressions, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness." I cannot emphasize how much Paul really focuses the Christian on the gentleness, lowly, meek, and compassionate side of Christianity, which I am not seeing. It's shattering. I will tell you right now, I have more grown men in my church crying on a weekly basis than I've ever experienced in my life because they have been carrying the weight of this harsh Christianity. It's like beef-jerky-and-knife Christianity. They're walking up going, "I can't get out of bed. Beef jerky and knife?"
Justin Perdue: As I've called it before it's Green Beret Christianity: It's only for the strong, it's only for the dedicated, we got to put more burdens on people so that they'll grow, we need to make this sound hard because if we don't make it sound hard, then everybody's going to want it and it's just going to foster nominalism, easy believism, and all this business.
Again, I come back to it and the antidote to all that stuff that you're talking about is the right preaching of law and gospel. You're trying to make the gospel sound hard, it's not; the law is hard, the gospel is not. The gospel is free. The gospel is something that Christ has done for you, and it's light, as he says; his burden is light and his yoke is easy. I don't know what you're talking about respectfully.
Jon Moffitt: Speaking of his burden being light, one of the things that we, as his family, have been called to is to carry a burden. Not to bury the lead here, I'm just going to tell you then Paul flat out says that after he describes those who are trapped in sin, go to them with a spirit of gentleness and meekness. He doesn't say, "Hey brother, I'm going to pray for you. Brother, you need to repent." I love what Paul does here. He says if someone's trapped—that means they're carrying the burden of their sin—you need to go to that person and you don't just need to confront them, you don't just need to say I'm to pray for you, he literally says bear their burdens. He says, verse two, "Bear one another's burdens and fulfill the law of Christ." But what's the law of Christ? Love God and love each other. When someone comes to you and they confess a sin, or they confess a struggle or a burden, and you say to them, "Brother, I'll pray for you," I'm going to say this: I know it's going to sound crazy, but that's actually the wrong answer. That's actually sinful because Paul doesn't say pray for them; he says carry that burden. We, as Christians, we just don't understand the concept of living a life with other broken, messed up sinful people—and you are not to do it alone.
Justin will tell you right now: his church is the place that he knows that will prevent him from slipping into utter despair because it's there that his brothers and sisters, and the communion of the table, and the remembrance of his baptism—those are what will draw him out. Why can I say that? Because that's what I've believe about my church.
Justin Perdue: Praying for people who are struggling is a piece of bearing burdens and sorrows, but it's much bigger than that. It is living life together and coming alongside. It's being there. It's listening. It's maybe other kinds of help. It becomes very obvious that that only can be done in the context of a local church. We don't need to take this conversation in that direction, but the exhortation of Paul in Galatians 6 is beautiful that we restore people who are in sin, we restore them with a spirit of gentleness, and we bear one another's burdens and sorrows. In doing so, we are doing what Christ told us to do. It's not the presentation that you often hear in terms of what Jesus would require of us. If people were to make a list of the things that they think Jesus requires of us, I don't know that that kind of love, gentleness, humility, patience, and those sorts of things would be at the very top; it's at the top for Christ, it's at the top for Paul, as they unpack it for us. It's significant that we would make that observation.
Jon, you had talked about wanting to sort of riff on some of the self-righteousness that's out there with respect to preachers.
Jon Moffitt: Absolutely. I just wanted to start for those who were discouraged. I didn't want to leave that hanging there. I wanted to be encouraging that you can find a good local church.
Justin Perdue: Find a local church. I don't think this'll sound inappropriate, but one of the things I know that I would want in a pastor and that I certainly want in the other pastors of CBC is a man who is in touch with the depth of his own corruption and understands his own weakness. Because I think that's going to be an antidote to some of the stuff that Jon is about to talk about, and it's also going to tend to pull out of that man a gentle and tender posture toward the saints, because he, in that sense is aiming to model what he sees the posture of Christ to be toward him. That's what we all need.
If you're out there and you're struggling, you're feeling weak, you're wondering if you've got what it takes, all of those things, I resonate with you and I know Jon does too. Christ loves you, he will sustain you, he's not angry with you; he is your friend, he is your intercessor and your advocate, and those who come to him knowing they're in need, he never turns us away. He delights to cover us, to sustain us, to love us, and to show us patience and mercy and the like. It's a sweet thing and it's the ground of our hope.
Jon Moffitt: A biblical, true, sound church, which is what we encourage you to find, will apply such a passage as Romans 15:1:. "We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak." Sometimes those who are weak, they're afraid to go into the church. Why? Because they're going to get beat down.
Justin Perdue: Because they're afraid they're going to get bludgeoned to death.
Jon Moffitt: This is where we're going to go now. So they're afraid that the preacher's going to call them out, people are going to judge them, everybody's going to know that they are not who they say they are, and they would rather either sneak in and sneak out or not go because they can't live up to the expectations. Paul is saying, "What are you talking about? You are obligated. It is part of being in my family to bear with the failings of the weak," weak, meaning those who are being enslaved in sin. What breaks my heart is when I hear preaching that doesn't come in with the tenderness and the meekness of Christ. Those who are in sin need to be drawn back underneath the wing of Christ by his gentleness and kindness. You can't help but quote Paul when he says the kindness of God is meant to lead to repentance. When Paul is talking to the Corinthians in 2 Corinthians 10:1, as we mentioned earlier, he says that, "I entreat you by the gentleness and mercy of our God." One more passage I need to quote is 2 Peter 1:9. If you are not showing these: godliness, mercy, kindness, goodness, you have forgotten that you have been cleansed. I want to say that Justin and I agree that there are a lot of Christians who are failing all about, they're flailing about, they're doing all kinds of sin, they're being all kinds of hurtful, they're doing all kinds of things that aren't glorifying God. We see these dear people and we want to put our arms around them and say, "Hey, I bet you have no rest. I bet your soul is barking at you like an annoying dog. You can feel the guilt just dripping off of them." When Justin and I bring this gentle, loving Savior with this merciful, screaming out grace gospel, these people break down in tears and repent. It's unreal. It's not the angry fire preaching that rebukes them for not living up to a standard at saying, "Are you tired of your sin? Are you tired of dealing with this alone?"
I asked this question all the time, Justin; I say to people, "Has anybody ever offered to cure the burden of your sin?" You know what their answer is? No.
Justin Perdue: To which we say Jesus has ultimately done it, and then lock arms with us as we bear one another's burdens.
Jon Moffitt: Right. Galatians 6:2. Romans 15:1.
Justin Perdue: I'm just going to reiterate. Jon and I are talking about applying the gospel to those who are grieved by their sin, who are burdened by their sin, who know that they're sinners, who know that sin is wrong. Don't misunderstand us. If people think that sin is good, if people are arrogant, high- handed about it and all that, we preach the law so that people might be humbled and crushed and driven to Christ. But for those who are humble, contrite, no sin is wrong, grieved by it, weighed down by it, stressed out by it, fearful for the judgment of God because of it, we hold out Christ always and invite them into a community of believers who understand the same thing, who understand our corruption and how we fight against it all the time, and how wearying that battle is, and we tell them to walk with us and cling to us as we all cling to Christ. We say that a lot, but it's the best illustration I know to give. We hold onto each other, bear one another's burdens and sorrows, and weep together, and then rejoice together as that is appropriate as we all are ultimately looking to Christ and hoping in him alone. That's what the church is. It's about Jesus and the people who need him. Many people, at least in our current church context, have never experienced such a thing, and that's sad.
Jon, I want to talk a little bit about the self-righteousness that does exist out there. I think that it's very interesting that the preaching that most people would assess as good and faithful to the Scriptures is so laced with the things that we talk about all the time: it's a confusion of law and gospel, it's pietism. It's all of that. But it sounds so much like the self-righteousness that Jesus lambasts and goes after. It is not gentle toward the weak. If anything, you're just fanning the flame of the pride of those who think they're doing well. It only serves to feed into this notion that Christianity is for the strong, the disciplined, the dedicated, and for those who have it together; those are the people who are to be most commended.
I've said this before and I'll stand by it: I think that growth in the faith—we are often told that it means that we get stronger and that we are doing better all the time. I think a lot of growth in the faith is actually coming to a deeper understanding of how weak and needy we are. It's a more true understanding of yourself. You've quoted 2 Corinthians 12—the thorn in the flesh and all that business; what is it that Paul concludes from that? He concludes that he will boast in his weakness because it is in his weakness and need that the grace and power of Christ is made most evident. That's our posture. Paul is not saying he boasts in his weakness because he thinks that weakness is in and of itself good, or that struggle is in and of itself good. No, it's good in that the excellencies, the mercies, the grace, the power, the sufficiency of Christ is made most plain, which is what we need this side of the resurrection.
Jon Moffitt: Hey brother, I will say this. There's no way we're going to do this justice because I know we're coming to the end and we've got to get our day going, but I will tease this out here: more is coming. We're probably going to do an Ask Theocast on this and you and I are probably going to do an episode on this. If you can understand the confusion of these preachers, they feel as if they're doing a favor to their hearers by helping the false converts realize that they're not a true convert. I had this conversation recently with a pastor and it really broke my heart. He felt like his entire ministry, he feels when he preaches in the church that most of the people in the church are not converts. This is a conservative evangelical church. We're not talking Joel Osteen, we're not talking pentecostalism, we're talking about a Bible preaching church. "I think most people in there are just false converts." My goodness, what is wrong with us? And we think what's going to convert them is calling them to the law in some low fashion? That's not going to convert them.,
Justin Perdue: If you're a pastor, the only way that I could even conceivably understand a pastor of a church, thinking that the majority of the people listening to him are unconverted is if he literally is brand new to a church reform and revitalization situation, where he's thinking, "I really think these people are not Christians."
Jon Moffitt: I'm sorry. I thought you meant if he was new to Reformed theology, which is he's new to Reformed theology.
Justin Perdue: I mean you're a new pastor coming into a church where you think the majority of these people are not regenerate. That's the only context in which I would understand that posture as a pastor, because if you have been the pastor of that church for any period of time, and you think that you have any reasonable sense of church membership, and you think you're then preaching to unregenerate people, I don't even understand what you're saying. You and your elders need to go and reevaluate how you bring people in, apparently, because you're bringing a bunch of false converts into your membership. What are you doing?
I actually assume my job is to preach to the saints of Covenant Baptist Church every Sunday. Yes, there were visitors there every week, there are people there every week who I don't know, who may or may not be Christians, and the gospel permeates everything we do so they're hearing that, and the law is proclaimed clearly in the things that we confess and say and preach. They're hearing law and gospel every Sunday and they understand how they might be reconciled to God. That's true. But my job is to preach to the saints of CBC and I assume about them that they are regenerate, and that they actually want to please God, that they want to be holy, that they want to grow and be mature, but yet they're struggling and they're weary. So then, what do those people need? They need Christ.
Just briefly, Jon, I know we've said this a bunch of times before, but it needs to be said again: if you think that you're preaching to unconverted people, do not give them some blending of law and gospel where you give them law light and tell them to do better. If you think that you are preaching to people who are not converted, who are comfortable in their skin, then you best preach the law in all of its holiness with no curve, no exceptions.
Jon Moffitt: Do what Jesus did to the self-righteous.
Justin Perdue: Exactly. Crush them. And as those people are despairing of themselves, then you hold out to them Christ.
Jon Moffitt: Amen. You and I both do this every Sunday: when we start our services, we ask what has God required of us this week? To love him perfectly and love each other. How have we done? We failed. Let's go to the Father for mercy. That will help the self-righteous see that.
I think the false convert that these weird evangelical-Calvinistic preachers are going after are not false converts. I think they're confused, and I think they're abused; I think there are a lot of people who are just exhausted by Christianity, by all of the little laws that have been laid upon them. They're done with it. This was me. I know I was saved, but when I walked away from the pastorate early on in my twenties, and I walked away from ministry and went and worked for Apple for a while, I was confused and an abused Christian who was over what was handed to me. It wasn't until I discovered this message of rest that I became so excited again about Christ, because I realized I found rest for my soul. All of these people who they look lazy, they are entrapped in sin. They are not taking Christ seriously. But I would say they're a smoldering wick and a bruised reed. They're so exhausted and you got preachers coming over and beating them over the head. These people are confused. They've been abused by the marketing tactics of evangelicalism. How do I know this? Because, Justin, these are the listeners of Theocast and the people who are running into our churches. Every person running in my church right now are not strong Christians. They are not strong. They come in and they're like, "This is a place of rest. I'm in." And they are confessing sin on levels that I have just never seen because they realize that's where the rest of their soul is found.
Justin Perdue: An illustration comes to mind. I've already said what I need to say about law and gospel, and how that should be administered. If somebody is a Christian who has just never been taught well, and is struggling to no end, and is basically drowning, you don't then go over to that person and hold them underwater so that they will demonstrate to you how much they want to breathe. It's just insane. What you may want to do is go over and grab that person and pull them up, talk to them about who Christ is, what he's done, and what's good for their lives, and then invite them into a community of people that are going to pursue goodness and righteousness together, flee from sin together, and ultimately are going to point each other to Christ.
Anyway, there that is. This has been a longer than normal members' episode, which is good. It's a good conversation. I've been encouraged in my own heart today in thinking about Christ and his posture toward us. I hope that you have been as well. Jon and I hope that some of the things that we've been talking about here have been clarifying and putting words to your thoughts. Not sure.
If you're newer to the membership, welcome. This is, I suppose, what you can expect more of as we are moving forward, and I hope that's what you're here for. Thank you again for partnering with us in the way that you have already. We pray that you continue to benefit from this ministry. We hope that you'll continue to lock arms with us and partner with us so that we can see this platform grow, not because Jon and I are trying to be famous, but because we want this message to spread.
Jon Moffitt: Churches are being planted. People are being rescued.
Justin Perdue: A lot of plans that we do have are going to require this platform to grow.
There that is. See you next week.
