Jon and Justin talk about the importance of law/gospel distinction in the Sermon the Mount, as well as how to love and care for those with a tender conscience.
Regular Episode
MEMBERS Podcast Transcripts
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast, soon to be Semper Reformanda.
Justin, today's podcast is probably going to be one of those that I think is going to hit a lot of people really hard. Two things are going to happen: I think people are going to find massive relief and then there's going to be a whole another group of people that just are going to have a hard time swallowing this pill—it just doesn't feel right. All of the major evangelical/ Calvinist Reformed people out there do not seem to be making the same application we're making. It seems like we're swimming upstream here. I know there are people that are in my own church that are brand new and they're coming out of Calvingelicalism. They're going, "I don't know about this. This seems like you guys just to allow people to live however they want." I even got an email. In that email, one of the listeners was asking me basically that if you have someone who's living with her girlfriend, you have someone who's a drunk and doesn't want to give it up—basically people who are in this ongoing sin—how is it that something like this verse doesn't apply to them? He feels we should say this first to them and say, "Hey, listen, if you don't straighten up, God's going to say to you, 'I never knew you.'" How can that application not be appropriate?
Justin Perdue: I'm not sure if I'm going to answer that question directly. Initially, with some thoughts, I want to give a little bit of backfill as to what I think has to be present for us to have any chance to understand Jesus rightly in the Sermon on the Mount. I think you're going to agree with me, Jon: what we did today in the regular podcast was an exercise in several things, but maybe most pointedly and exercise in the application of the law-gospel distinction, where we're trying to rightly divide law and gospel, and demonstrate what in the world Christ is actually trying to accomplish. Is he saying that we quite literally need to do these things and can do them in order that we would be saved? The answer to that is no, he is telling us what we need to do but can't, and then is inviting us to come to him.
Lest anyone think that law-gospel distinction is somehow out of bounds, or even think that it's just a Lutheran category, I've got a couple little snippet quotes to throw out and then maybe talk more pastorally about what you were raising.
William Perkins, who's a Puritan, said this, "As far as the law-gospel distinction is concerned, it is as integral to Reformed theology as it is to Lutheranism." Theodore Beza, a people of Calvin, said this: "Ignorance of this distinction between law and gospel is one of the principal sources of abuses, which corrupted and still corrupt Christianity."
I agree completely that this corruption of this understanding, a lack of understanding of the distinction in the law and the gospel, is a Reformed category. Law-gospel distinction is, and a lack of understanding of this leads us to conclude all kinds of terrible things from the text.
The reason that came into my mind, Jon, is that you were saying that one of the reasons people will have a hard time digesting what we said today is that most of the people who are Calvinists, certainly at who maybe claim to be Reformed in the evangelical world that had a big platform, don't say what we said. My response to that in part is I think they sound different than us, and they don't say what we said, because I don't think they are distinguishing law from gospel in an appropriate way. I think they are blending law and gospel, or even confusing the two altogether, and are preaching gospel as law and law as gospel. It's really, really detrimental to people.
I just can't help but think about this, I think this all the time, because I used to struggle in this way. It comes across very schizophrenic and contradictory because on the one hand, you tell people it's all grace and it's all Christ and it's faith, but then on the other hand, you come in in a passage like Matthew 7 and say, "Well, you better be serious enough and obedient enough. You better be really, really legitimate or Christ is going to reject you." Then I'm asking myself, "Which is it? Is it Christ or is it me?"
Then, of course, because of the Calvinistic bend of a lot of these dudes, they pivot and go around the side door and say, "God in His sovereignty, by His spirit, is just going to work this kind of perseverance in you." That's a cop out answer. That doesn't work because again, you're not answering the question. You completely dodged the question. You can't use the sovereignty of God as your answer for everything; you still need to rightly preach law and gospel, and I don't think you're doing that.
That was just a brief word theologically as to why we sound so different. I think, at the heart of it, it's law-gospel distinction.
Jon Moffitt: I would say the heart of it is law-gospel distinction and ordinary means. The reason is, to add onto what you're saying, they believe that the Christian life is sustained in progress by our own personal efforts. This is why they have no problems embracing and preaching spiritual disciplines, and fruit checking. It's this constant pushing, I would say, of the wrong kind of fruit.
What bothers me about the kind of fruit that I'm handed by most Christianity is that it's so absent from the local context of our church. When Paul says to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, he doesn't point to these introspective actions, these disciplines; he doesn't point to quiet time. He points to the way in which we interact with each other: it's to bear one another with gentleness, meekness, and patience, and be eager to maintain the bond of peace. Even in James, where he says, "Listen, if you're telling me that you have faith in Christ, and yet you're unwilling to love your brother and not show favoritism, then your faith is of no value because that is not what people who have faith in Christ do."
In 1 John, he says, "If you say you love God and you love not your brother, then the truth is not in you." And you're a liar. There's so much that's happening when all of these verses are coming to mind, and yet they are looking at morality.
I read something yesterday that said something like if you are still struggling with porn today or the desire for it, then you really should question your salvation. It's almost like you need to get saved and baptized again because that somehow will make this legitimate Holy Spirit action come about. It's heartbreaking to me. I don't want to get angry cause I can easily do that. When I look at Matthew 7 as an example—to go back to our passage—that is just not a passage I'm going to go to for someone who is struggling with sin. It can't be. Now, if I have a brother who is sleeping with his neighbor and he won't stop doing that, that's not okay, and I'm going to confront them on it according to Galatians 6:1.
Justin Perdue: Even thinking about a 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 kind of passage: if you got somebody that is proudly and arrogantly engaging in sin, we meet that with the law and we say, "Don't you know God's law? Don't you know that people who do that will not inherit the kingdom of God?" Then we remind them of who they are, and how they used to be that but not anymore. Live like a Christian. It's effectively what we're saying.
Jon Moffitt: 2 Peter 1:9 or 1:10? You've forgotten you have been cleansed from these sins.
Justin Perdue: We're pointing people to identity, we're pointing people to Christ and what he's done for them, after we've met some sin with law if somebody's arrogant about it. We're just imploring them as the apostles did: live according to your identity, live according to who you are now, and remember who you are.
A brief comment on the fruit piece, John. You were talking about the fruit that we're often pointed to is just whack, and I agree with you. A lot of times it really comes across like we're being pointed to the fruit of our own effort, not the fruit of God's Spirit—and I think that distinction really matters. All the fruit that is talked about out there that we need to have, it really does come across like this is stuff that you're going to, through your determination and dedication, produce. Again, I am not disputing that people who are alive, breathe, eat, and do stuff. People who are alive produce fruit. But you just can't talk about it this way, because it inverts the relationship and the emphasis is completely off.
Jon Moffitt: If you are the person who's struggling—this will apply also to the person that might be trying to coach someone; a lot of times it's a spouse or a neighbor or someone else in the church—I would first say, alright, you've got it. You've understood it. Law-gospel distinction. There's no way Matthew seven is talking to the lazy Christian. He's talking to the self-righteous. You need to realize that these shifts in thinking do not happen in one conversation. They do not happen overnight. It is so dangerous to press in on this with someone who just isn't getting it yet. I unfortunately made this mistake and I will tell you that this is a long road, and at times you have to take a little step forward.
This applies to those of you that are struggling. It's like you can't seem to find that sure footing that you're good with Christ. It will come. There will come a moment where you begin to realize that the truth of Christ and all of this bad theology that you've been handed, it will start making sense where you can identify a law passage and you will not allow it to be a gospel passage. You won't allow it to lie to you. You'll see which ones are gospel passages and you're going to embrace it wholeheartedly. What we're hopefully building for you is a system by which you can trust that is not new and has been handed down to us by many generations. I know sometimes you feel crazy and we're here to tell you you're not.
Justin Perdue: I agree with everything you said. I'm always mindful, too, of Satan's role in these things. Satan takes the law of God and turns it into something that it's not meant to be for the Christian, namely condemnatory and accusing. Then he throws his own accusations upon that. He's the great accuser of the brethren—and Revelation says that. Then our own consciences wage war against us, too, and we're mindful of our sin.
I just want to point this out again, as we've said in the past: if you are grieved over your sin because you are concerned that it offends Christ, the only reason you would ever think that is because you are his. People can be concerned with sin and immorality for all kinds of earthly reasons, but to be grieved over sin because you think that it grieves Christ is only something that a Christian feels.
This is huge. Hear me say this: the difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is not that the non-Christian still sins and the Christian doesn't. It's that the Christian has agreed with God about his or her sin and has sided with God against his or her sin. That's it. That's the only difference. We know who we are and we know where our righteousness lies, and it's not within us, it's in Christ alone. We embrace wholeheartedly that he is our whole and only righteousness, and we receive what he's given to us.
I just want to speak personally to people out there who are struggling with this: I totally understand it. I still battle these things sometimes where I question whether or not I'm legitimate because I'm confronted with my own sin and corruption and the bends in my frame. I am discouraged by the fact that I still think this or desire that, or whatever it may be, or just how weak I feel, or how I'm doing emotionally. I'm like, "What is wrong with me?" I have those experiences regularly. It has only been in recent years that when I have those experiences, my initial instinctive response is to say, "Yeah, all that's true of me, and Christ has me, and Christ is my hope and confidence."
To your point, Jon, this isn't something that happens immediately for people. This has taken me years and years of constantly battling my own conscience, my own weakness, and my own fears of not being legitimate, and actually finding real rest and peace in Christ with the acknowledgement that I am not worthy and never could be, and that I was never meant to come and present before God something that would cause Him to look at me and say, "Yeah, I'll accept you," other than to say I have nothing and all I have is Christ and what he did for me.
The prodigal son is so helpful for me, as I think I've understood that passage rightly in the recent years, where the son comes back and is basically planning to bargain with the father. He's got his pitch already prepared: "I'm going to come back. I'm not worthy to be called your son. I've sinned against heaven and before you. Just treat me as a slave. Let me work for you." And the father won't hear anything of it. He says, "Forget all that. I've got a robe of righteousness for you and a ring of grace and shoes of mercy. Let's celebrate because you were lost and now found. You were dead and are now alive." That's the posture of our heavenly Father toward us.
Ultimately for me, for years, even upon encountering Calvinism, I still wrestled with assurance because of this confusing message that was presented to me, like what we've been talking about today. The only time that I could ever find peace and rest was when Christ was held out. My final plea always was Christ. This is where I keep landing; all I've got is him. My encouragement to all of us is that that's always been the case and always will be; he's all we've got and he's all we need. If that's not true, then Christianity is a sham and we're wasting our time.
Jon Moffitt: That's absolutely right. We're going to do a podcast on this soon, but I'm just going to leave this one last tip with you. It really breaks my heart to see Christians out there where there are a lot of these discernment ministries and these harsh revivalist preachers. Basically, they think they're going to correct Christianity by their hot preaching; they're pointing you in the face. I'm telling you right now, that's not what Jesus is doing. Jesus gave them the law.
If I have someone who I think is a lackadaisical Christian, who isn't taking their faith seriously, they don't need to hear a questioning of their salvation. You need to give them the law. The law says all of what's required, and they need to be able to look at that and go, "Oh my goodness. I'm failing that." They need to be able to feel the weight of their sin so much that they go, "Well, what's the solution then? Now you got me so scared." The solution is Christ. The solution that the revivalist is preaching is not Christ.
Justin Perdue: It's moral transformation.
Jon Moffitt: It's, "Try harder. Do more." Guess what? It doesn't work because if it did, then they wouldn't get to keep doing what they're doing. It doesn't work. It's not what Jesus does. So, we call people to Christ; we do not call them to moral transformation. Hopefully you understand that that does lead to their transformation, but it's not by their own efforts, it's by the ordinary means of grace within the local church, in the power of the Spirit.
Hopefully this is encouraging to you guys. Stay tuned. So much new stuff coming. As a matter of fact, while I was on the phone, the guy who's building our website called me. Hopefully it's a good update there.
We will see you guys next week.
