Jon and Justin talk about how freeing it is to realize your sanctification isn't for you.
Regular Episode
MEMBERS Podcast Transcripts
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. Truthfully, Jon made a comment and as soon as we got done recording the regular episode, I don't know why but it wigs me out to record an episode with a beer in my hand. You have a fundamentalist background. Why don't you just talk about that autobiographically, for a minute, and to help people understand why this would be something that you're self-conscious about. I admit that I am, slightly, but I don't think probably as much as you. I do worry. I'll talk about those fears.
Jon Moffitt: I don't want to come across as if we have arrived, and that once you arrive at our level, then you will truly know what Christian liberty is like. We've done some special Zoom classes for pastors only. We've gone through some books. All the guys that have a bourbon in their hand and it's okay. It's kind of a smaller, closed off conversation. But when I know that thousands of people are going to be listening to this, I never want to be that guy that puts an additional burden on people who are already feeling burdens. Which is kind of what we wanted to talk about—about lifting this. But, yes, there is that feeling of wanting people to know my heart, and I want them to know the joy of what happens in resting in Christ.
People could ask you why you are even going to take the chance of offending someone. The reason why I keep doing it is, in many ways, I think that I want people to know that things can be done with grace and mercy, and they don't have to be done with arrogance and pride. In many ways, that's probably why I do it uncomfortably. The first time we did this a couple of months ago, I can remember when we started it, I said we're going to get some comments here and there—and we did. Maybe we are wrong, but I don't think our attitudes are.
Justin Perdue: Our attitudes aren't. We may be wrong about this, but we're not wrong about Jesus. That I'm confident about.
Jon Moffitt: I grab onto Colossians when it says, "Hey, don't let anybody... if they're going to pass judgment..."
Justin Perdue: This is the members' area. We're talking to our crew and our family here. The things that go through my mind, recording a podcast like this, drinking beer and all, I do think it's great to be able to enjoy the good gifts that God has given us. The problem is never with the gifts. The problem is with our hearts, and the fact that we so tend to abuse the good things that God gives us. If we were to make a list of the greatest things in the world, all of them could be abused. In no particular order, power and authority can be abused. It's not inherently bad. It's actually good. Sex, money, drink—we could go on down the list. We can abuse all of them. They're not bad inherently. But I'm self-conscious, too. Just talking with our members, and even doing an episode like this, I don't ever want to come across like we are flaunting our liberty. I don't ever want to come across as reckless or cavalier, and have people say, "We knew that those Theocast guys are just a bunch of antinomians, and they're the kind of guys who serve antinomians, and they serve beer and bourbon in all their church functions." That is not who we are. But I'm always worried about that. I always want to be wise in what we do. I am the kind of guy that will hyper analyze everything that I say and do. That's a tendency I have because I don't want to be unwise and potentially harm somebody.
Then there's some legitimate fear of man, because I know we're going to get shot at for this, and nobody likes that.
Jon Moffitt: Can I just interject here? I'm not going to use Jesus as my justification, even though I want to. There are certain kinds of people that I don't care that are angry at me.
Justin Perdue: I'm the same.
Jon Moffitt: Like the self-righteous who, it doesn't matter who you are or what you do, they're going to attack you. It doesn't matter because they're going to find something to attack. The person I'm thinking of is this sensitive person who's legitimately so exhausted, they are just clamoring for truth. It's that person that I want to be sensitive to.
Justin Perdue: I honestly don't know that that individual was going to be put off by what we're doing.
Jon Moffitt: No, but it doesn't mean I don't stop first.
Justin Perdue: I think that individual is probably encouraged, in some way probably, with this.
Jon Moffitt: Let's talk a little bit about if someone here is listening and they understand, and they say, "I know what you guys are saying. It is wrong. I shouldn't feel this way. But I can't change." Let me describe it this way, Justin—see if you agree, or maybe you would try to describe it in a different way: an incorrectly bound conscience is someone who is living in fear of something they should not be afraid of. What we're really talking about is what they are afraid of, and I would say judgment.
Justin Perdue: The judgment of God. Precisely. Or even if it's not, "I'm going to hell," but the displeasure of God or the disapproval. That He is somehow less pleased with me, He is less happy with me, He does not feel the same way about me now than He did five minutes ago before I started doing or not doing this thing. It could be either. It could go either way.
Jon Moffitt: This is when Justin started the introduction.
Justin Perdue: To be very clear, we are not talking about sin. If the Bible says this is immoral and sinful, that's not a topic for conversation.
Jon Moffitt: We could use tithing as an example. We have brothers in here who come from a background where you are in sin if you don't tithe a percentage.
Justin Perdue: Or we're talking about something that the Bible does not clearly say is wrong that you are engaging in. Just to be very clear, we're not saying that because you're now engaging in something that the Bible says is very clear and immoral and wrong, that you shouldn't worry about it. No, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about something that the Bible actually does not condemn that you are now practicing, for example, and you ought not be worried about how God feels about you. His love for you has not changed. Christ's work for you has not changed. What you are doing, in no way, violates a clear command of God. You are free. Live accordingly. It sounds revolutionary to say.
Jon Moffitt: So, that person who's feeling that, this is where I would get to. I feel weird saying this, but I think all lies do come from Satan. It's satanic, in certain ways, because Satan has been able to get into your conscience and bind you in such a way where instead of resting on the sufficiency of Christ, being set free from that burden, you are actually underneath the Law and the weight of condemnation. Christ says you should be resting and you can't find rest because you've been lied to.
Justin Perdue: Let's talk about the work of Satan broadly in the world. What does he say to those who are not in Christ to those who don't give a rip about God? He says to them, "You're fine. You keep doing you." And people are just going to keep doing them. What does he say to the saints? "You're not fine. You think you're fine, but what you have done now has ruined it all. And yet you think that Christ is enough for you. Not for you. He might be enough for some people, but not for you, not with what you've done." And that's how the devil works on us. He does it in these ways, for some people with issues of conscience, where he just constantly accuses them. He chases after them and tells them that they are evil, wicked, and not in God's favor, and they are never going to meet the standard. The devil does this to us in our own consciences. He's the great accuser of the brethren.
What we are seeking to do, in even having this conversation, is to set the saints for whom Christ died for and submitted himself to the Law. The people that he did that for are free. Something as trivial as whether or not they can enjoy a certain kind of beverage, or listen to a certain song, or go to this certain establishment, as long as it is not a clear issue of sin, something that trivial and silly ought never to cause us to question our standing in the Lord Jesus. But for so many, it does.
Jon Moffitt: To be very clear, your assurance in Christ must always and firmly be set on what Christ has done for you, and that you are set free from the condemnation of Christ, you are adopted, you are in union with him. To better describe this, just imagine Christ has wrapped his arms around you, and as God looks at you, all He can see is Christ. You are held by Christ, by faith alone, for the work of Christ, you were being held by him. This all comes to you, never by your performance, because then you have a reason to say, "This is why I am in Christ." This is Paul saying, "We boast all the more in Christ, not in our own works, but in Christ's work." So, if you are being held by what you are or are not doing... It doesn't matter what it is. In your mind, often it's something good. What's interesting is that Satan will take something that is good and make it a requirement, and now you feel guilty for it.
Justin Perdue: I want to riff on this. This is my own articulation of something that Michael Horton wrote in The Crisis of Evangelical Christianity. Such a great book. People often think that if Satan ruled the world right now—and I understand he's the ruler of this world, principalities, that's fine—but here's the thing: what if Satan was ultimately in control and he was aiming to deceive the masses. What would the world look like? People assume that what it would look like is just abject immorality everywhere, Sodom and Gomorrah, and just orgies here and drugs here and all that. That may be true in some instances, but Horton makes a very compelling argument and I agree with him. I think that actually what Satan would have is a very morally upright universe where people are thinking that their morality, in some way, justifies them. They are straight-laced. They are upright. They're doing they're checking all the boxes. They don't need Jesus for a blessing. That's Satan's only goal.
We talk about this a lot. There are so many things that evangelicals get geeked up about, and they don't need Jesus for a single one of them. I said this at the very beginning of this whole conversation almost an hour ago, that evangelicals, we tend to obsess about our behavior. When we do that, we are playing right into Satan's hands, honestly. This is not a Godward thing that we're doing. We are deceiving ourselves into thinking that our righteousness is tethered to our behavior. That's what the devil would have us believe, and he does it in two directions, like I've already said. He would tell the morally upright person who does not have any regard for Jesus that they're fine, and he tells the saint who is struggling with sin, who loves and trusts Christ, that they are condemned.
Jon Moffitt: I would say all lies are demonic, and the reason it has to be that intense is because he is accusing you and your conscience. What he wants you to feel as if you do not live up to the standard, God will abandon you. That is what enslaves people. We're over here saying you may not want to or need to participate in whatever freedom there might be for you, but do not ever allow that to be the thing that removes your hope, assurance, security, love, and affection from your Father, because that is not the design.
Justin Perdue: And don't ever do that to your brothers and sisters. Don't ever be an instrument, not of God, but of the devil, where you are actually going to be robbing your brothers and sisters of their peace and assurance before the Lord, because you are condemning them for something that the Scripture does not condemn them for, and something that the Scripture doesn't even say is wrong.
Jon Moffitt: I have one last section that I think we need to cover. I think this is a very important conversation because I know that those who are new to Theocast are going to yell out at whatever device they're listening on. "You guys, you say these things, but you need to pay attention to when Paul says that all things are lawful, which means you are free to do them, but they're not all helpful." How do we determine what Paul meant there? I would like to go back and say two things to you. We like to use the hypothetical weaker brother in that moment that does not exist, that's one, that we use to determine that. Alcohol is one of those things that says, sure, it's lawful, but it's not helpful, which you and I would beg to differ.
Secondly, I would say, in context, which I'm going to let you speak to, what is Paul really getting at? I think what he's getting at is the protection of the safety and the unity of the congregation of the body of Christ.
Justin Perdue: In the immediate context, it's 1 Corinthians 10. I read it earlier. Verse 23: all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful, but not all things build up. Verse 24, let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. It's about the body building itself up. It's about the unity of the saints and the bond of peace. It's about the body, every part functioning as it should, building itself unto maturity.
Jon Moffitt: I'd like to jump back in and say the point is unity around Christ and growth in Christ in grace. We cannot allow a preference of someone that will dictate that. So what he is not saying is it's lawful, but it may not be helpful because this person has a preference. I have preferences as a pastor. We were just talking about this with the guys in the car on the way over here. We were talking about music and Ben had asked me the question, "What's your view of music and what does this look like?" I told him what my biblical convictions are, things that I absolutely believe what worship should be, and then I told him what my preferences are that I do not mandate. There are things that we do in our church that are not what I prefer, but our congregation at large, it seems to edify them. So I set my preference aside.
Justin Perdue: In our membership class, in the section, we're talking about our gathering and what we do and why, we'll talk about music. We'll say that at our church, we do music that's old and new. All we care about is that the theology is good. Basically, what we aim to do is set out to offend everyone. We aim to offend everybody's preferences because this church will be built on no one's preference, including my own, as the lead pastor. There are plenty of songs that we do in our church.
We're talking about what kind of songs we as pastors will select for corporate worship.
Jon Moffitt: Or should you wear a suit on the pulpit?
Justin Perdue: We were talking to this the other day and I said, "Brother, this is not to be weird about this, but I'm intentional about everything that I do: how I dress, and all these kinds of things." What's the goal? The goal is not for me to be able to do what I like. The goal is for me to not distract the saints in corporate worship. For example, I'm going to be preaching in a church, not at Covenant Baptist Church, this coming Sunday. I agreed to go preach in a different congregation in their morning and evening service. One of the questions, when I go do something like that, that I'm always asked is how long I preach, and what I wear. Our goal is to give them Christ, and the goal is for me to come in there and look like what they're used to. Who gives a rip about what I like to wear to preach? That is so absurd. I want to go in there and not distract those dear saints who need to be given Christ that day.
When it comes back to the question of corporate worship and singing, one of the ways we frame it is there are plenty of songs that we sing that I don't like the melody or the arrangement. But guess what? That sister over there, she loves that song. Get over yourself and look at that brother or sister of yours who is edified in Christ to no end by singing this song that you don't really like. If you can't get on board with that, maybe this church isn't for you.
I'm not trying to be a jerk in communicating it like that, but we all need to think in these terms. Like Paul says, don't look out for your own interests. Don't look out for your own sake, but consider your neighbor.
Jon Moffitt: For the sake of unity and the bond of peace. When Paul says later in Ephesians to not quench the Spirit, we always assume that means if you keep doing a particular sin, then the Spirit within you is basically going to go away. In context, Paul was talking about the bond and peace of the unity of the Spirit and our unwillingness to be. What he means is that the Spirit that bonds us together. The Spirit produces patience and meekness and gentleness, and you're unwilling to obey those, you're going to quench that bond.
Justin Perdue: Right. A few verses before that, he talks about not giving the devil a foothold. Don't get us started on how absurdly that's ripped out of context. No, you realize that's a corporate exhortation. What is Satan's foothold that he would grab in the church? It's to harm the unity and the love of the saints with the Lord Jesus. That's what we're talking about.
I'm actually preaching through Ephesians right now. I think Ephesians is probably the most clear example of what I would call the apostolic pattern in all the Bible. The status forward, identity forward realities that we always talk about; you are justified, now live from it; you are in Christ, now live from it. Ephesians models that so beautifully. I was talking to a guy not long ago who is a preacher. He was like, "The first half of Ephesians was epic. Then I got into the second half and it's like I wished I was back in the first half." I said, "Really? That's interesting because I can't wait to get to Ephesians 4. Because having grounded our people in the Lord Jesus and his finished work in their place, and God's grace and all this stuff, which we do every Sunday, having done that, I can't wait to talk to them about how we now get to live together and how the Lord has told us to do these things and it's good. It is so cool.
I love exploding people's thinking where they think that to be godly is to be on a Bible reading plan and to abstain from certain sins. I want to say, "Hey, if you were going to write a letter to a local church to tell them the first thing you were going to say, out of the gate, about how they ought to live together, what would you say to them?" Paul starts with love, humility, gentleness, patience, bearing with one another, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Then he gives them the basis for it. Is that how you want to start the letter as an evangelical? I think not.
Jon Moffitt: "Read your Bible, pray every day, and you will grow." Paul says when the body functions properly it builds itself up in love.
Justin Perdue: Hopefully, some of that was clear. Hopefully, some of that might have been encouraging. It was a behind the curtain moment, for sure.
Jon Moffitt: Hey, listen, I want you to hear two things. These are two men who struggle with their own consciences or who struggle with their own sin. We're super glad that you're a part of it.
Justin Perdue: I'll just say this too. We don't do this well all the time, because we can be like anybody else. But we aim to take Christ very seriously and not take ourselves very seriously at all.
It's been good to talk with you. We sincerely hope some of this was helpful and encouraging. We leave you with this thought: Christ has accomplished everything for you than you could ever. He has given you all the righteousness that will ever be required of you. All of your sins, he took them and he's never giving them back. Rest in him, trust in him, love your brothers and sisters and let that love exercise your Christian liberty. That's a good takeaway.
We'll see you next week.
