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"Ordinary" by Michael Horton
Is the Woke Church Movement a False Gospel? | ask Theocast
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https://youtu.be/sPRY4xH4oOo
Semper Reformanda Transcripts
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to Semper Reformanda.
So I recently did an episode of Ask Theocast and the title of it was Is the Woke Church a False Gospel? I would love to get your thoughts on this, because I know you have them, in relationship to the woke church, sufficiency of Christ, and false gospel. How do you process this entire episode that you just gave me with a real life issue? This is something our listeners are dealing with.
Justin Perdue: All right. I'm just going to talk about my posture on this whole thing, the woke church and issues of social justice that are going on in our culture. For me, I'm just going to be very simple in terms of how I approach it. And then I'm happy to answer pointed questions about what I make of this or that person, or this or that thing.
For me and for our own congregation, in as much as I can affect that, and I know this is true for our elders, our aim and my aim—I'll speak personally—is to continue to preach Christ and the sufficiency of Christ, to not add any clutter on top of that, which would include these things. There are not things that we're going to add to Jesus in order to be tests of orthodoxy or fidelity even; we're gonna preach Jesus. But then my encouragement to us is let's continue to make Christ the main thing, point one another to him and rest in his sufficiency, and then humbly seek to understand each other. That is my encouragement.
If you're going to ask me what the prescription is for what ails us in the church, when it comes to this conversation on social justice and all these things, there are a lot of people who have been wounded and hurt over these issues. There are plenty of people, my brothers and sisters in the faith, who have had experiences in America that I've not had. It doesn't mean that we need to alter the message of the church, it doesn't mean that we add anything to the gospel, it doesn't mean that we change the message of Christ. What it does mean is that we preach Christ for the salvation of God's people and for the building up of the body of Christ, and we love each other, and we seek in humility to understand other people, to understand our brothers and sisters and what they have gone through. We don't assume that we did it. It's just part and parcel of loving each other. So that's how I aim to address it in our congregation. And that's how I am to talk about it with people that I know.
I would say this, too: this issue will never be settled on social media. This issue will never be settled in those kinds of forums. The way that this issue, I think, there's harmony reached on this is by conversations happening where I can talk to a living, breathing, human being who has been through things and who has struggled with this or that thing, or has had this experience, and I can just listen, try to understand, try to weep with those who are weeping, and to try to come alongside and say, "Brother, sister, how can I help you bear this burden?" But that, to me, is not unique to this issue, but it's clearly biblical and good. That's how I would aim to approach it.
You can ask me more pointed questions because I'm not trying to avoid your question. But I've never said anything like this exactly on Theocast, and this matters to me that we approach it this way.
Jon Moffitt: I guess what I'm trying to get at, too, to add to what you're saying: I gave my thoughts on the episode, but when we're thinking about the issue like what the woke church is presenting, I would say some of the issues they're presenting, and I would even say a lot of the issues they're presenting, are not illegitimate. They're observations. You don't need to be educated through some university to see that they're right. But when I'm hearing about the solutions that are being provided to me,—Justin, maybe we're wrong, and I will take the criticism because this is my perception—the solutions being offered are not the sufficiency of Christ.
Justin Perdue: Sufficiency of Christ, brother, and even the unity that we have in him that outstrips anything else.
Jon Moffitt: Matt Chandler literally said—or maybe it wasn't Matt Chandler, might even be David Platt. One of those guys. I need to find the quote and put it in there. But it was saying that Christianity is causing the very problems of the division within the local church. Justin, you and I can say that this issue is not new to the United States or the world in general.
Justin Perdue: No, it's not. That's true. At the same time, the situation in America, given race-based chattel slavery and the like, is a unique situation that hasn't happened every place.
I think something that I will go ahead and say, and this is maybe opening a huge can of worms: when people make comments about evangelicalism and its whiteness or whatever, if somebody even asks me, "Are you an evangelical?" My answer is, no, I'm a confessional, Reformed Christian. In that sense, I do not consider myself to be an evangelical in the sense of the movement.
Jon Moffitt: It is a pietistic movement.
Justin Perdue: There's a lot of cultural pieces that have contributed to it. And I think some of the observations about even the predominance of white stuff in the evangelical church is true. Given that the evangelical church is uniquely American and uniquely involves white people. So, of course, those things are true. But this is where for me, brother, I do find some comfort in looking back to something that predates this country, and we're looking back not only to the Scriptures, but even to Christian history that is from West Asia, Europe, North Africa, you name it, and we're standing on the shoulders of those saints. I hope that's of some encouragement to brothers and sisters of any ethnicity.
But then my posture, again, is going to be Jesus is enough for us in all things, and we need to look to Christ, and then we need to love each other.
Jon Moffitt: Paul even uses Philippians 2 as the illustration of Christ lowering himself, and then we as believers setting our preference in society. And I understand some of the concerns that are being brought to us, that sermons are being preached, clothes are being worn, music, style, whatever. I don't disagree that every side of the table needs to set preference in society, that we don't need to cater.
Someone asked me recently—they haven't been in my church yet—they had reached out to me and said, "Hey, I would love to sit down with you and ask you about your church," and so that person asked me—and this is really dangerous so I had to be careful on how I say this—but he basically asked me, "What are you doing to reach out to other ethnicities?" And I actually took offense to that. I said, "So you assume I don't?" I'm not sure what he was meaning by that. And so I even asked him, "What do you mean by your question?" Because the very nature of the question assumes that our church is only geared for one ethnicity. And my answer to him was that I think that no matter where anyone goes, no matter what country they're in, no matter what city they're in, if they are properly applying God's Word as it was intended to be applied, preference and cultural do not take place when we're talking about who it is we're going to love. In other words, Jesus doesn't say, this is how you love your neighbor. Paul literally says, "I become all things to all people" How does he do that? He's setting preference aside.
Justin Perdue: I agree with you. I do think we need to set preference aside in the church. As I say often, we aim to offend everyone. In our church, we don't build a church on my preferences or anybody else.
I was talking with McKinsey, who's on the staff at our church, the other day about some of this, and he's the same way when it comes to the style of the way that we do stuff. I am not going to deny, of course, that we have been influenced by any number of American church experiences that we've had, but we are aiming to look back to stuff that's quite old and we do Reformed worship—and that's fine. But it's not as though I enjoy naturally the style of the things that we do. I think that needs to be said. There's a lot of music that we sing and do that stylistically I don't care for. I'll be frank: I do listen to some "Christian music" because I find some of it likable, but there's a lot of it that, frankly, I just don't find musically good. And so if you're asking me what I'm going to put on when we get in the truck going home, it's not going to be necessarily what we sing on Sunday morning stylistically at all. I'm a white guy, but that's true.
We need to all be able to get over our preferences and stuff, but the exhortation that I keep coming back to is to consider one another—and it's not complicated in that regard. And that has to be done with people with whom I have meaningful relationships, and with whom I feel safe and they feel safe with me because of Christ and the unity that we have. And because we know that we're not going to impugn the other person's motivations and we're not going to cast a bunch of shade. It's the only way that, to me, any progress can be made in this whole thing.
Is the woke church preaching a different gospel? No, in as much as they are still preaching Christ crucified for sinners. That's the answer there. And I think that charity and humility are required here. And don't be a jerk in the ways that you go about speaking to these things. Yes, defend the truth, stand up for the sufficiency of Christ. Sure. We're trying to do that. But we're not doing that necessarily by mowing everybody.
Jon Moffitt: One of the things I do want to say is I've been watching this situation gain traction. There are videos that are six years old and are gaining traction, and what I'm concerned about and what breaks my heart is that that which unifies us is being put in the background, which is the sufficiency of Christ. That which can motivate us to set our preferences aside is not being emphasized. When we read the instructions to the local church, the local church is to remove anything that would cause fraction and division amongst them. Paul literally says in Ephesians chapter 4 to be eager to maintain the bond of peace. Later on in chapter five, he says to not grieve the Spirit. He's talking about that bond.
Justin Perdue: To harm the unity of the church is to grieve the Spirit. That's really clear.
Jon Moffitt: When I hear men say we need to be a diverse church, we need to have diversity of all different ethnicities in our local body, when that becomes the primary focus, I actually think that you have lost the mission. Because the goal is to love anyone and everyone that is around us, and to set our preferences aside.
Justin Perdue: And to show no partiality.
Jon Moffitt: Right. And to show no partiality. And to make Christ the focus—not diversity. It actually bothers me when churches put on their website that they're diverse or multicultural. I just look at that and I don't know what to do with that.
Justin Perdue: I don't want to impugn anybody's motivations and put up something like that. We do not put something like that as a part of our mission statement or the description of our church on purpose because no matter how good it may be, we don't ever want to elevate anything to the level of the gospel because that's the only thing that is essential.
Jon Moffitt: Right. Your church's tagline is what?
Justin Perdue: Imperfect people, perfect Savior.
Jon Moffitt: Right. It's just helpful to let people know this is what we're emphasizing. Everyone is in equal need of Christ. It doesn't matter who you are, male or female, it doesn't matter what your age is, it doesn't matter what your background is or where you were born...
Justin Perdue: What your socioeconomic status is. Anything.
Jon Moffitt: You are in need of God's grace.
Justin Perdue: You're in equal need of God's grace. Every one of us comes here absolutely devoid of any righteousness on our own that could ever stand before the Lord. We're all wrecked and ruined and undone, and we need Christ, and he is the only one to whom any of us can look. It matters not, like you said, anything about you. It doesn't matter.
Jon Moffitt: I think the only reason I raised so much concern here, and I maybe raise my tone at points, is that when Christ and him crucified, the sufficiency of Christ, and our union in Christ are no longer the focus of the local church, you are ready to step off the cliff at any other direction. And it really is scary to me because you see so many people who, I think, are going down this direction and they have massive platforms.
Justin Perdue: A couple of things that I just want to riff on for a second, if I can. With all due respect, there will be something else that evangelicals are worked up over in two years. I've been sincerely following this probably for a little more than a decade—a dozen years or so. I would be relatively in tune with what's going on even in the Calvinistic evangelical world. Every 18 to 24 months, there is something new that becomes the fad and the obsession, and everybody's arguing over it. And you can bet with certainty that every four years, when the election cycle comes around, that politics is going to be it. But there's a lot of other things, and people argue and fight over these things. Pick your issue.
What will sustain us long-term in the church is the sufficiency of Christ and the exhortation to humbly seek to understand each other. That's what we keep coming back to. This will carry the day and carry the mantle regardless of what's going on in the culture around us, and regardless of what our people are concerned for. These tools are actually the only things we really have. So we need to preach those.
One other thought is that like Michael Horton says in his book, Christless Christianity, if you look around at the American church, there is a lot of ink spilled and a lot of sermons preached and tons of activities planned around things that you don't need Jesus for at all. And I think this is something that I experienced, and this is something that I continue to see. How many different sermon series on marriage, parenting, or whatever could you go sit through and honestly never be offended even if you weren't a Christian? Because all it is wisdom It might be wisdom underneath the Scripture, but we're not connecting any of this to Christ and we're not helping people see how Jesus is the primary thing. It seems that the primary concern for us needs to be our lives now and how we're doing. I'm not trying to dismiss the premise that we want to glorify the Lord with our lives, but something is amiss when you constantly see all this in the church.
And as Horton says in his book, and we say it at my church regularly, Jesus didn't come so you would have a better marriage. He didn't come so you'd be a better parent. He didn't come so that you would be more responsible with your money. He came to save you. We can talk about parenting, marriage, and finances, but a lot of that is not going to be from the pulpit. A lot of that's going to be in conversation, and we can counsel one another. But for our time together and worship, we're going to preach Jesus.
I realized we talked a long time about one topic, but it is at the forefront of people's minds.
Jon Moffitt: It is. It's on the front of mine and I'm trying to think it through, and it's on the front of a lot of people's minds.
Justin Perdue: Last thing I'll say about this is we need to avoid, as Christians, as people who are about the sufficiency of Christ, in as much as it concerns Theocast and Semper Reformanda and all, when people are arguing and engaging in and whatnot over stuff around wokeness and the gospel, we don't want to make the error that people are making in either direction. We don't want to immediately jump to calling people heretics. We don't want to immediately jump to just being really uncharitable and jerkish about how people are just compromising and giving away the gospel. We need to avoid that language.
But then on the other side, we need to be very slow to charge people with things like racism. If we're ever going to be able to have the conversation, we need to tone down that rhetoric and we need to not engage that way so that we can actually have meaningful exchange, meaningful dialogue, and maybe make some progress here.
Jon Moffitt: I will tell you right now I hit the mute button on people. I don't even hear what they have to say the moment you can tell from their tone—they use all caps or the way that they're talking when they're coming in so hot—this person does not know what meekness and gentleness are at all.
Justin Perdue: It's true. No meekness and gentleness, no tact, no thoughtfulness, no humility. Let's just be real: in the Reformed world, there are going to be more people who err on the side of that heresy hunting and that quick to charge others with, "You're on a slippery slope." Even this week, as I've seen stuff about complementarianism and all. I can't tell you how many people are basically like, "Yeah, all you people out there who don't rigidly toe the line and say that to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen is a God honoring thing, anybody who doesn't say such a thing is on a slippery slope toward denying Christ." Just stop. That's stupidity. What you're saying is absolutely dumb. In their minds, the next step is egalitarianism, and the next step is to affirm the LGBTQ movement, and the next step after that is just to deny Christ altogether. I don't know where in the world you're getting this from.
Jon Moffitt: I do think fundamentalism is a slippery slope argument.
Justin Perdue: Last statement on this. I know we got to shut this thing down, but we're here together, and we're excited about Semper Reformanda.
I recently preached a sermon on Ephesians 5:22 and following at Covenant Baptist Church that I would happily have anybody listen to if they want to hear me talk at length about some of these issues. You can find it on our church's website, we have a podcast app. There's a shameless plug for that. Listen to it if you want. But I remember having a conversation with so many people in the aftermath of that message and that service that day. And I said what I've said so many times: if we want to proverbially destroy what God has said about men and women, and the distinctions that do exist between men and women, if we want to destroy that for our children and grandchildren, then by all means, keep going further than the Bible goes. Because you will. Absolutely. You will cause, in particular, our daughters and granddaughters to hate the church. They will hate what the Scripture says, or what they think the Scripture says about men and women, because we continue to say way more than the Bible says. And because we have taken a beautiful passage like Ephesians 5:22 and following and come away with 89 principles of authority and headship and submission, and it's absurd.
Anyway, there that was. Husbands, love your wives; wives, respect your husbands. It's really that simple. And Christ is enough.
Jon Moffitt: Thank you for listening and joining the Reformation. If you have any questions, let us know. There is a Facebook group for Semper Reformanda members. We've been toying with this for a long time, but we have a Facebook group just for you so we can start processing how these groups are going to unfold. So go join that group. You've already got an email on how to join that. There's also some more information about the membership and all that good stuff.
Talk to you next week.
