Why You Can't Stop Sinning (Romans 7 Reality)

Transcript

Edited machine transcript. May contain errors.

[00:00:04] Hi, this is Justin.

[00:00:06] Today on Theocast, we are going to be having a conversation about why you and why we can't stop sinning.

[00:00:13] In other words, we're having a conversation about Romans chapter 7.

[00:00:17] And we acknowledge that there's been some debate about this passage throughout the history of the church as to whether Paul is writing as a Christian, as a regenerate man, or writing about himself, or maybe a hypothetical person in

[00:00:27] an unregenerate state.

[00:00:28] If you've ever wondered about that, today's pod is for you.

[00:00:32] So, we're going to do a little bit of that textual work.

[00:00:34] We're going to go through the passage and try to explain it and expound on it a little bit, and then talk pastorly about the sinner-saint reality, about our battle against the flesh, about how with Paul we so often

[00:00:44] find ourselves not doing what we want to do and doing the evil things that we don't want.

[00:00:50] And this is our experience, this side of the resurrection.

[00:00:53] So take heart, weary saint.

[00:00:55] Christ has us, Christ will finally deliver us.

[00:00:57] There will come a day when we will be freed from sinning.

[00:01:00] We hope this podcast is helpful for you as you think about living between this day and that one.

[00:01:06] Stay tuned.

[00:01:07] We are excited to announce we have a brand new podcast available called the Kingsmen Podcast.

[00:01:13] It's where we are reclaiming biblical mandate by training and equipping men for the work of the kingdom.

[00:01:18] You can find it anywhere you download a podcast.

[00:01:20] You can also watch it on YouTube.

[00:01:22] We have new episodes that come out every Monday.

[00:01:36] Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ, conversations about the Christian life from a confessional, reformed, and pastoral perspective.

[00:01:48] If you're wondering what we're aiming to do here at Theocast, we are aiming to clarify the gospel and reclaim the purpose of the kingdom of Christ.

[00:01:57] Your hosts, today are Jon Moffitt, who is pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, and I'm Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[00:02:07] And we're meeting on another Wednesday.

[00:02:09] This is our third consecutive double dip Wednesday.

[00:02:13] It is grinding, Jon.

[00:02:16] Trying to get ready for the summer.

[00:02:17] We got travels, bro.

[00:02:18] Trying to travel.

[00:02:19] Trying to produce content.

[00:02:20] We got things going on.

[00:02:21] You're coming to Asheville in late June.

[00:02:23] whoop.

[00:02:24] That's going to be cool.

[00:02:24] Hey, you know what?

[00:02:25] If you're going to go to Nine Marks, that's going to be in September in North Carolina.

[00:02:30] Yes, in North Carolina, right?

[00:02:32] Yeah.

[00:02:32] It's Southeastern.

[00:02:34] Do you know what you're speaking on?

[00:02:35] Can you say?

[00:02:36] Do you know what you're saying?

[00:02:36] Speaking on the conversation, so the conference is on expositional preaching.

[00:02:41] Oh, that's but then the way they want to go about doing the conference, apparently, is rather than giving talks about preaching, they want the speakers to preach sermons from different genres of scripture.

[00:02:52] Oh, there you go.

[00:02:52] And I believe they've given me the Pauline epistles a message of my choosing.

[00:02:59] It's like, here, you get the golden pot.

[00:03:01] Have fun, you know, where it's easy to find.

[00:03:04] I mean, I'm in Romans right now.

[00:03:07] It's like the issue is going to be: I preach 48 to 50-minute sermons, and I think they're going to want this to be more like 40.

[00:03:15] So I'm going to, you're probably going to have to do a little editing down.

[00:03:18] Andrew, Andrew Johnson, who works for Theocast, came and visited you, and he's like, Yeah, he preaches longer than you do.

[00:03:23] I was like, Yeah, it's because he can.

[00:03:25] I can't.

[00:03:26] Anyways, compliment my brother.

[00:03:28] Hey, real quick, speaking of Justin and lecturing, Justin has some new lectures available on Theocast U.

[00:03:35] He's going through covenant theology.

[00:03:37] I believe the Abrahamic covenant and the.

[00:03:40] So Noahic Abrahamic and Mosaic should be uploaded have already been uploaded.

[00:03:44] Yeah.

[00:03:45] So by the time this comes out, you can go and listen to those.

[00:03:47] If you want to know what the opportunity I'll be doing, I'll be doing the Davidic next month, so that should be up.

[00:03:52] There you go.

[00:03:53] That is a program that we started for Sempara Framanda, and it has 22, 21 lecture or classes that have multiple lectures in them.

[00:04:03] And so, yeah, I've got a leadership development class that's 10 months long, and we are already have uploaded five of those.

[00:04:10] The ones that I just did recently was on the history of creeds and confessions.

[00:04:14] It's a two-hour lecture with notes.

[00:04:16] So that's the kind of stuff that you can expect in there.

[00:04:19] That's it.

[00:04:19] That's all my advertisements for the week, brother.

[00:04:22] Word.

[00:04:23] So we're now going to pivot to our topic for the day, which I think, in some regards, you're going to set up for us.

[00:04:30] Yeah.

[00:04:31] So, why don't you go ahead and do that for the listener, Jon?

[00:04:35] Yeah, we titled this Why You Can't Stop Sinning.

[00:04:38] And we try and title things in a way that will clarify what we're talking about and also grab your attention at the same time.

[00:04:46] We don't want you to sin.

[00:04:48] I don't want to sin.

[00:04:49] Man, if I could go another day without sinning, but waiting for Jesus to come back, I guarantee you my life would be better.

[00:04:55] 100%.

[00:04:55] Amen, brother.

[00:04:56] Yeah.

[00:04:56] And I strive for that every day.

[00:04:58] Really do.

[00:04:58] Hate sin.

[00:05:00] Utilize confession because my God says it's there and I am not ashamed of it.

[00:05:04] So, Justin, one of the things that's complicated about the world that we live in, we are very thankful for our reformed and conservative brothers, our dispensational brothers and evangelicals who are out there who don't even know what they

[00:05:16] are, but are very concerned about the gospel and about holy living.

[00:05:21] So, man, arm in arm, thankful.

[00:05:23] Praise God for you people.

[00:05:24] You're our brothers and sisters.

[00:05:26] But at times, we can get theologically confused, get our roads crossed, and crash into some other theological lanes that shouldn't be crashed into.

[00:05:36] And this is definitely one of them.

[00:05:38] We will say things like, oh, yeah, for sure, for sure.

[00:05:41] Christians are going to sin, they're going to sin.

[00:05:43] But, and then it's like, it almost feels as if that's the abnormal experience of the Christian life.

[00:05:51] Like, if you're a sinning, then there might be something wrong with you because normal Christians don't do that.

[00:05:57] Normal Christians, you know, and I, I don't, this is such a childish word, but it's like Christian, me Christians may have boo-boos, but they don't have any, you know, big ones that, and that's just not how the experience

[00:06:08] of the one, that's not my experience.

[00:06:11] I'm sure anybody that's listening is not your experience.

[00:06:14] No, and it, we can't, we never base theology off experience.

[00:06:18] Don't ever do that.

[00:06:19] It's just not what we do.

[00:06:21] But the scripture has a lot to say.

[00:06:25] And sometimes, Justin and I will speak in generalities, like generally, this is what the Bible says.

[00:06:30] We thought we'd go ahead and just dive into a text to show you that clearly Paul teaches this.

[00:06:36] And Justin's been going through Romans 7.

[00:06:39] We'll put his sermons down in the link.

[00:06:41] You can listen to all of his sermons anywhere you listen to a podcast, but this specific one, if you want to hear it in a long form, like 50 minutes, you can.

[00:06:48] Oh, yeah, and you'd get two 50-minute sermons on Romans 77.

[00:06:54] And this is vacation season, so there you go.

[00:06:57] You know, you can put it in double speed and you're good to go.

[00:07:00] Justin, give us initial thoughts on this.

[00:07:02] I know you have some additional thoughts, and then walk us through Romans 7 for about a little bit, and then a few minutes.

[00:07:07] And then we'll just talk.

[00:07:08] Exactly.

[00:07:09] Yeah.

[00:07:11] Man, there's a lot that could be said.

[00:07:16] I mean, there's a debate.

[00:07:18] Let's just start here.

[00:07:19] Yeah.

[00:07:19] There's a debate about Romans chapter 7 that has existed through the history of the church as to whether Paul is writing this passage of scripture as a Christian.

[00:07:29] Can I interject?

[00:07:30] Sure.

[00:07:31] And say that it goes back to as early as Augustine.

[00:07:35] Yeah.

[00:07:35] As Augustine and Augustine, yeah.

[00:07:38] And we may acknowledge some of this in a minute.

[00:07:40] So there's a debate that's existed regarding Romans 7 because the language is so strong.

[00:07:45] and Paul uses language that I think on the surface of it, if you're not trying to understand it, well, everybody's trying to understand it.

[00:07:54] I don't impugn motivations, but I understand why people, given the strength of the language that exists in Romans 7, would sometimes be nervous to say, yeah, he's writing as a Christian, because, man, what does this say about us?

[00:08:07] And does this contradict some of our other understandings about the new nature we've been given through regeneration, etc.

[00:08:14] We're going to get into some of those things today.

[00:08:16] I'm going to go ahead and state from the outset that our understanding, you've already basically implied this, is that Paul most certainly is writing as a Christian in Romans 7.

[00:08:26] He's writing about his own experience as a regenerate man.

[00:08:30] And I don't think that I said this in preaching through the text.

[00:08:34] I'm going to go and say it for our podcast today.

[00:08:36] I don't feel the need to approach this polemically

[00:08:41] or in any way

[00:08:44] antagonistically toward the other perspective.

[00:08:47] I don't think that's needed.

[00:08:48] I don't think we need to go in to a text like Romans 7 with a polemical perspective because I think once you read the words and just expound on them in their most obvious way and their most obvious

[00:08:57] meaning, it becomes apparent to everyone that, yeah, he's writing as a believer.

[00:09:03] The context of the whole letter of Romans, I think, makes that plain.

[00:09:06] And then, in addition to all the exegetical pieces, you just said we don't want to build a theology on experience.

[00:09:11] I completely agree.

[00:09:12] And then, yet, if we're aiming to do faithful exegesis in the context of the whole Bible, in the context of the book that it's in, in the immediate context in terms of the flow of Paul's argument in Romans

[00:09:25] 5, 6, 7, etc., and on top of that, we hear the words, and every one of us knows,

[00:09:35] yeah, he's writing about me and he's reading my mail.

[00:09:39] And truer words have never been written about my Christian experience.

[00:09:43] At least I haven't read them.

[00:09:45] When you add that experiential, existential piece to it, I think it makes it all the more compelling.

[00:09:52] And so, yeah, I want to acknowledge the debate that exists.

[00:09:56] I want to make plain our position.

[00:09:58] Augustine, you mentioned him in the earlier years of his public ministry.

[00:10:02] He understood Paul to be writing about himself in an unregenerate state, and then pivoted later in his life to understand Romans 7 to be written by Paul as a Christian.

[00:10:12] And then, in terms of the reformed tradition, whether we're talking about Martin Luther or John Calvin or just the confessional traditions, I mean, our own confession, Jon, cites Romans 7 repeatedly regarding language of the internal war and the

[00:10:25] battle of the spirit against the flesh and the fact that we will not be fully sanctified in this life, etc.

[00:10:30] So our own confessional tradition is very clear that we understand Romans 7 to be written by Paul as a believer, as a regenerate man.

[00:10:38] So, having said that, let's do a little bit of exegesis and some exegetical work here so that if people have their Bibles open, or maybe you're driving and that's not possible.

[00:10:48] Don't worry about it.

[00:10:49] I'm going to try to set the context for you.

[00:10:51] So, Romans 5, most people know Paul's been talking pointedly at the end of that chapter about the imputation of Christ's righteousness, the biblical truth of covenant representation, that just as we were imputed with, counted with Adam's guilt, we

[00:11:05] are counted with Christ's righteousness by faith.

[00:11:08] And then Paul goes into Romans 6 to talk beautifully and write beautifully about our union with the Lord Jesus and what this means for our Christian lives and for our sanctification.

[00:11:19] And in particular, in Romans 6 and verse 14, Paul makes a statement of fact that sin will not have dominion over believers.

[00:11:28] And he grounds it in this reality: since you are not under law, but under grace.

[00:11:34] Now, he's already talked about being united to Jesus, but then he grounds it again.

[00:11:38] Sin's not going to have dominion over you, fact, because you're not under the law anymore, you're under grace.

[00:11:44] Beginning in Romans 7:1 and following, he's going to unpack that principle more.

[00:11:50] Because in Romans 7, 1 to 6, he makes plain that through our union with Christ, we no longer belong to the law.

[00:11:58] We belong to Jesus now.

[00:12:00] The law used to be our husband, but now our bridegroom is Christ.

[00:12:04] And this occurred through our union with Jesus and our death in Him.

[00:12:09] His death is counted as our death.

[00:12:11] And so now the law no longer has hold on, and in Christ, we died to it so that we might belong to Jesus.

[00:12:20] And this is how we bear fruit for God, Paul says.

[00:12:23] Then in Romans 7:5, he indicates that when we were in our fallen, corrupt, natural state, all the law did was exacerbate our sinful passions.

[00:12:33] It made things worse.

[00:12:35] Right.

[00:12:36] Then in Romans 7:6, he says, but we've been released from the law.

[00:12:41] He reiterates that again, having died to that which used to hold us captive.

[00:12:44] And then he says that the result of this is that we serve God now in the new way of the spirit, not in the old way of the written code.

[00:12:53] Okay, pause button.

[00:12:54] All of that that I've just articulated raises some questions about the law.

[00:13:00] If everything you're writing, Paul, is true, then is the law good or is it somehow bad, right?

[00:13:06] Like if it only served to exacerbate our sinful passions, and if we needed to be set free from the law in order to actually serve God in the spirit and bear fruit for him, maybe there's something wrong with

[00:13:16] the law, then, which is where he turns in Romans 7 and verse 7.

[00:13:22] He asks the question: What then shall we say?

[00:13:25] That the law is sin?

[00:13:26] And then he answers it in a way that we're used to if we've been reading through the book of Romans with this indignant, emphatic, no way, by no means, right?

[00:13:34] Excellent.

[00:13:35] Right.

[00:13:36] But then he goes on effectively to do this.

[00:13:39] He says there's nothing wrong with the law.

[00:13:42] The problem is sin in us.

[00:13:44] And then he begins to write about himself.

[00:13:47] And he says, more or less, that through the law he came to understand himself to be a sinner.

[00:13:54] Right?

[00:13:54] This is huge.

[00:13:55] We can't miss this.

[00:13:56] Like, is Paul writing as a regenerate man?

[00:13:58] Absolutely, he is.

[00:13:59] This is the first point of our argument on that front.

[00:14:02] That he had just said that in our fallen natural state, the law only exacerbated our passions.

[00:14:07] It didn't do anything good for you unless the law comes with the power of the Holy Spirit, then everything's different.

[00:14:15] Because if the law comes with the ministry of the Holy Spirit and you have eyes to see the law's standard at a spiritual level, at a heart level, it crushes all of your legal hopes.

[00:14:26] Like, remember what Paul had written about himself in terms of his life before he had an encounter with the risen Lord Jesus, Philippians chapter three, right?

[00:14:35] Hebrew of Hebrews.

[00:14:37] You know, as to he's a righteous under the law, blameless, right?

[00:14:42] Talks about being a Pharisee that was just absolutely crushing that life.

[00:14:46] And so he had tremendous confidence in himself prior to encountering the risen Lord Jesus.

[00:14:52] But here he says that when he had eyes to effectively see the law this way, it crushed his legal hopes.

[00:15:00] He was convinced by the law that he was a sinner who had no righteousness before the Lord.

[00:15:06] So, this is the first and greatest use of the law in Paul's life.

[00:15:11] The law is holy and righteous and good, he says in verse 12.

[00:15:15] And the commandments, everything that it commands, holy, righteous, and good.

[00:15:20] Then, verse 13, did that which is good then bring death to me?

[00:15:24] By no means, he says, no way.

[00:15:26] It was sin producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

[00:15:34] The law's first and greatest use is to show us the depth of our sin, the depth of our corruption, and bring us to the end of ourselves for righteousness.

[00:15:42] That happened for Paul.

[00:15:44] That's what he says right there.

[00:15:46] So I want to begin there.

[00:15:47] Then he pivots in verse 14 and following.

[00:15:50] He says that the law is spiritual, it requires a spiritual, heavenly righteousness, and the law was given by God Himself.

[00:15:58] But then, when it comes to Him, He's like, I'm of the flesh, and I'm sold under sin.

[00:16:03] When He says sold under sin, don't get tripped up over that.

[00:16:05] All He's talking about is the fall of Adam.

[00:16:07] That's right.

[00:16:07] We were all sold under sin when Adam fell.

[00:16:11] So that's what he says.

[00:16:12] Then he goes on to describe his day-over-day experience as a Christian.

[00:16:16] For I don't understand my own actions.

[00:16:18] I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

[00:16:22] And that's where we all read that.

[00:16:23] And it brings tears to our eyes because we are like, I have been there countless times.

[00:16:28] He goes on.

[00:16:29] Now, if I don't do what I want, I agree with the law that it's good.

[00:16:32] That's easy to understand.

[00:16:34] If I hate when I break the law, then I am agreeing with the law and the standard of the law that what the law teaches is good and right and pure.

[00:16:45] But the problem is, I can't live up to it.

[00:16:48] But I'm agreeing with the Lord and I'm agreeing with the law.

[00:16:51] Only believers feel this way, only believers see the law like this.

[00:16:55] We're going to continue on.

[00:16:56] Verse 17: it's no longer, I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

[00:17:00] So here he's getting into the principle of indwelling sin.

[00:17:03] And we're going to talk more about this later.

[00:17:05] We have been given a new nature in the Lord Jesus Christ, praise the Lord.

[00:17:09] And the corpse of the old man remains.

[00:17:12] That's right.

[00:17:13] And here's the reality: this is pivotal for our understanding.

[00:17:16] The corpse of the old nature is not made holy.

[00:17:20] There's a reason we still need to die.

[00:17:23] We will be rid of the corpse of that old nature when we die or Christ returns, and we will be raised like 1 Peter, right?

[00:17:29] Incorruptible, imperishable.

[00:17:31] But until then, that corpse of the old nature is only corrupt and it remains with us.

[00:17:36] This is what he's talking about here.

[00:17:38] Then, verse 18: For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is in my flesh.

[00:17:43] That's a qualification he only needs to make if he's writing as a regenerate man.

[00:17:47] Because if he's unregenerate, all he is is flesh.

[00:17:50] But as a regenerate man, he's saying, There's nothing good in my flesh because there is actually something good in his inner man now.

[00:17:56] There is something good in his new nature.

[00:17:58] It's called the sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

[00:18:00] That's what he's indicating here.

[00:18:02] So there's nothing good in his flesh.

[00:18:03] And then he says again, these gripping words: For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

[00:18:10] Dear listener, have you ever been there?

[00:18:13] I've been there countless times.

[00:18:14] So has Jon.

[00:18:16] Verse 19.

[00:18:16] For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

[00:18:21] And we're like, yes, it's so true.

[00:18:24] We're grieved.

[00:18:25] We lament the fact that that's the case, but it is true.

[00:18:29] And brief insertion: only regenerate people look at the law and say that it's good.

[00:18:36] Only regenerate people love the Lord, want to honor Him, and are grieved at the thought of offefending Him.

[00:18:42] We continue on.

[00:18:43] Verse 20.

[00:18:44] Now, if I do not do what I want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

[00:18:48] So there he goes again.

[00:18:49] This is not an excuse.

[00:18:51] No.

[00:18:51] We're not exonerated, but what he's saying is there is a battle and an internal war that exists between my spirit and my flesh, my inner man, the regenerate part of me, and the corpse of the old nature, right?

[00:19:04] They're at war with one another.

[00:19:05] He says the same thing in Galatians 5:17.

[00:19:08] And this war is what keeps you from doing what you want to do.

[00:19:12] So, then I'm going to quickly go through these last few verses.

[00:19:15] I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.

[00:19:18] So, this principle of this internal war and this principle of I want to do what's right, but evil is there.

[00:19:26] That principle is so strong and abiding that Paul refers to it as a law.

[00:19:31] This is how it is.

[00:19:33] Then he goes on, for I delight in the law of God and my inner being.

[00:19:37] Again, only a regenerate person can say such a thing because that is a grace from God.

[00:19:42] And by the way, nobody delights in something that is their death sentence.

[00:19:46] That's right.

[00:19:47] Only people who are forgiven, justified, and absolved would ever say, I delight in the law of God in my inner man.

[00:19:53] Then he goes on, but I see in my members, right, my flesh, another law waging war against the law of my mind.

[00:20:00] That's another, the law of my mind clearly is his inner man, his regenerate part, and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

[00:20:08] Don't let that language of captivity flip you out either.

[00:20:11] This is what happens to you and me every time we're just absolutely captured in sinful thoughts when we can't shake them, when we go on and indulge in something, we are overtaken.

[00:20:25] It is what occurs, right?

[00:20:27] So that's what Paul's describing.

[00:20:29] Then the cry of every believer: wretched man that I am.

[00:20:34] Again, his cry before Philippians 3.

[00:20:38] What was his cry before he'd encountered the risen Lord Christ?

[00:20:41] Righteous man that I am.

[00:20:42] That was his boast.

[00:20:45] Now he says, Wretched man that I am.

[00:20:47] That's his cry.

[00:20:49] That only happens through regeneration.

[00:20:51] That's true.

[00:20:51] Only happens through being given eyes to see.

[00:20:53] So, wretched man that I am, he says, who will deliver me from this body of death?

[00:20:58] And again, notice he's writing as a regenerate man with hope in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[00:21:02] Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[00:21:05] Who will deliver me?

[00:21:07] Jesus will.

[00:21:09] That's his answer.

[00:21:10] So then, putting a bow on the whole conversation, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, his inner man, his regenerate nature, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

[00:21:21] This is the internal war that is the experience of every believer.

[00:21:24] It is ongoing, it is irreconcilable.

[00:21:28] Our confession says that.

[00:21:29] The scriptures bear it out.

[00:21:31] And this is meant to, a last comment from me, and then we'll just talk pastorly, Jon, and just popcorn thoughts back and forth, because I know I have a lot.

[00:21:39] So do you.

[00:21:41] This truth and these truths that we're articulating here that Paul writes so beautifully.

[00:21:46] I mean, first of all, thank God for these words because it's what we go through.

[00:21:50] The Lord isn't silent on this war and this battle, and the fact that we often are just discouraged and disheartened in it.

[00:21:57] Because I mean, Paul is clearly battling those same feelings because he's crying out to the Lord.

[00:22:03] I'm wretched.

[00:22:05] And we're all like, yeah, I get it.

[00:22:07] So, these words are actually not meant to discourage us.

[00:22:11] These words are a great comfort to us because we realize that it's not that Christianity didn't take with me, it's not that I'm a faker, it's that, nah, like the Apostle Paul, I am engaged in a war, that's

[00:22:27] right, and there are going to be plenty of times when that war doesn't seem like it's going very well, like our confession even says, it may seem that the flesh is greatly prevailing for a time.

[00:22:39] 5.5.

[00:22:40] And 13.3.

[00:22:42] Same thing, right?

[00:22:44] But the regenerate part overcomes.

[00:22:46] That's right.

[00:22:46] Because the Lord will see it through.

[00:22:48] And so this was the experience of the apostle.

[00:22:51] And so we can take heart that we're experiencing nothing new, that this has been what the saints have known from the beginning of the faith.

[00:23:00] That's right.

[00:23:03] If you're new to Theocast, we have a free e-book available for you called Faith versus Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest.

[00:23:10] And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a reformed confessional perspective.

[00:23:21] You can get your free copy at theocast.org/slash primer.

[00:23:28] So theologically, this is really important to understand.

[00:23:32] And this is because we don't think of, we don't think eschatologically, we don't think about the world to end and the world to come.

[00:23:38] We get stuck in a present world.

[00:23:40] And when you do that, you don't understand.

[00:23:42] So, for instance, the Christian experiences this: two deaths, two births, one resurrection.

[00:23:48] That's how it works, right?

[00:23:50] You were born into sin, that's your first death, right?

[00:23:54] And then you're going to physically die, that's your second death.

[00:23:57] So you have an actual physical birth and then a physical death.

[00:23:59] You have a spiritual death, you have a spiritual birth, and then we're not Platonists.

[00:24:04] We have a real resurrection where we're going to come back with our bodies.

[00:24:08] Now, some people, when you understand this and you understand, first of all, a covenant understanding of scripture, which is a covenant of redemption, God is redeeming the world, and there is an already not yet factor that's happening.

[00:24:22] God brings his children to life in their current state, our bodies that we're in, that we may take this body and use it like a tank.

[00:24:34] We're using it like a tank, it's gonna be destroyed.

[00:24:37] And the wielding that tank is complicated at times because it's got its own will, it's got its own mind, but we're supposed to use it to go into the kingdom of darkness and bring other people to life by

[00:24:49] shooting the gospel, right?

[00:24:50] We're proclaimers of the gospel.

[00:24:52] And Paul is like, man, as I do this mission of taking the redemption of Christ around the world.

[00:24:59] I'm wrestling this thing, and it wins at times.

[00:25:02] But the thing is, he doesn't quit the fight because the goal, and this is what I love, Justin.

[00:25:07] I'm going to do this a little bit of an introduction into next week, okay?

[00:25:11] Because he understands the ultimate aim is not overcoming the flesh.

[00:25:15] The ultimate aim is to fight the flesh because we have a bigger fight.

[00:25:18] Exactly.

[00:25:18] And that's the advancement of the gospel.

[00:25:21] But to say that you're not going to wrestle your flesh is absolutely foolish.

[00:25:27] You are going to wrestle it.

[00:25:29] And not only like every day, you're going to wrestle it from moment to moment, from second to second.

[00:25:35] We've all been in this moment where we're not thinking anything sinful.

[00:25:39] Oh, how many of you have been in prayer in church, right?

[00:25:42] Yeah.

[00:25:43] And all of a sudden you're like, what is that in my brain?

[00:25:46] Where did this come from?

[00:25:47] Why?

[00:25:47] Like, what?

[00:25:49] As though it came from nowhere.

[00:25:50] Like, or, or, yeah, you have that, you have that experience.

[00:25:53] Like, where, what, what is happening to me?

[00:25:55] Where did this come from?

[00:25:56] That's right.

[00:25:57] Like, I'm having this thought of something that happened 15 years ago that I haven't thought about in five years.

[00:26:02] And all of a sudden, I'm tripped up like crazy.

[00:26:04] I can't get beyond it.

[00:26:05] What in the world?

[00:26:06] Where did this come from?

[00:26:07] Right.

[00:26:08] And it's coming from your flesh and it's spiritual warfare.

[00:26:11] It's the enemy.

[00:26:12] It's all kinds of things, right?

[00:26:13] Can I jump in there real quick?

[00:26:14] That spiritual warfare comment, and I'll come back to you.

[00:26:17] Satan knows we are in a weak vessel, and he attacks that vessel to get out our spirit sometimes.

[00:26:23] Sorry, go ahead.

[00:26:24] Sure.

[00:26:24] And I'm not trying to say that, like, Satan controls our minds or anything.

[00:26:28] I'm not saying that, but there are real spiritual warfare that we engage in, and we battle against the corruption of the flesh, and it's intense.

[00:26:36] And there are plenty of times, like you just said, where it just comes out of nowhere, and all of a sudden it's got its hooks in us, and we can't shake it.

[00:26:45] And it's this whole business of being taken captive by the law of sin that Paul writes about, you know, and you're crying out for deliverance and for grace and for mercy, and like Lord, help me, because I got

[00:26:55] nothing here.

[00:26:56] And I'm distracted as the day is long.

[00:26:57] And yeah, maybe I'm sitting in the assembly with the saints and I can't focus on anything we're doing because I'm such a frail creature, you know, in this regard.

[00:27:06] Or, how many times have people had this thought?

[00:27:09] I mean, this is related.

[00:27:11] Um, if I'm a believer and I'm born again, how in the world could I have done that thing?

[00:27:22] If I am united to the Lord Jesus Christ, how in the world could I have felt that or thought that or craved that.

[00:27:32] That's our life, man.

[00:27:33] That's our experience.

[00:27:35] And we talked about this with Ken Jones on a pod a few weeks ago.

[00:27:38] I'm just going to repeat it now because it's worth saying.

[00:27:42] There is no sin save the unpardonable one, right?

[00:27:46] The effectively the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit determining that Jesus is of the evil one and he can go to hell.

[00:27:53] And having tasted and seen all that, we could talk about it some other time.

[00:27:57] But outside of that, there's no sin that a Christian won't commit, that a Christian might not commit.

[00:28:01] Right.

[00:28:02] And like Ken said so well, there's no Christian, there's no sin that a Christian should commit.

[00:28:07] That's right.

[00:28:08] But there is no sin that a Christian might not commit.

[00:28:11] We are all capable of all of these things, man, because of the corruption of the flesh.

[00:28:15] Yeah, so let's give some logical and the battle doesn't go away.

[00:28:19] No.

[00:28:19] Yeah.

[00:28:20] So you got, first of all, you have warnings.

[00:28:22] Paul says, don't turn what your body was a slave to before to return to it.

[00:28:28] Paul wouldn't say that if you could, or it might happen.

[00:28:31] Church discipline, accountability, constant preaching of the gospel exists.

[00:28:36] Exactly.

[00:28:36] You have to, I don't think you can name an epistle where there isn't a warning of going back to the old way.

[00:28:43] I just don't think there's an epistle where that's not there.

[00:28:46] Right.

[00:28:47] And what's interesting is that there is an epistle that's going to point you to use fleshly means to fight the flesh because you can't.

[00:28:55] You can't fight the flesh with the flesh.

[00:28:56] It won't happen.

[00:28:57] Right.

[00:28:57] Well, and what I was, I want to say this and double down on this to be really clear, because I think this is very important for us practically and experientially in our lives.

[00:29:05] Because I think we have been taught some bad things on this front.

[00:29:08] That's right.

[00:29:09] And we also assume some bad things on this front.

[00:29:12] What I said earlier is really important, and I know you agree, Jon, that the corpse of the old man remains, and the corpse of the old man, the flesh, is not made holy.

[00:29:21] No.

[00:29:22] Why does that matter?

[00:29:23] Because I think a lot of times that's what we think about when we think about sanctification is that my flesh is becoming more holy.

[00:29:29] And it's like, no, your inner man, your regenerate nature is being built up and strengthened and nourished and sustained in the Lord Jesus Christ by the ministry of His Spirit through the means of grace.

[00:29:40] That's true.

[00:29:42] And as that occurs for you, that will matter in your life.

[00:29:45] Amen.

[00:29:47] And yet, the flesh will always be corrupt and it will always be with you.

[00:29:52] What does that mean?

[00:29:53] It means that the battle against it is not going away.

[00:29:56] I don't care how godly you are.

[00:29:58] Like the most godly people, the godliest amongst us, will find nothing but death and corruption and ruin in their flesh.

[00:30:05] And that flesh is there.

[00:30:07] And then what this means is that the battle against the flesh, Jon, might be just as intense in 10 or 20 years from now as it is today.

[00:30:16] That's right.

[00:30:16] And that doesn't mean you haven't been sanctified.

[00:30:19] You have.

[00:30:20] But there are going to come times in seasons or moments like you were alluding to just a bit ago where the flesh rears its head and the battle is just as intense as it has ever been.

[00:30:31] That's right.

[00:30:31] And that's because that flesh is the same tomorrow as it is today.

[00:30:36] It's going to be the same in 10 years as it is today.

[00:30:38] It's death.

[00:30:40] That's right.

[00:30:40] And it's corruption.

[00:30:42] And so this matters a ton for us as we even think about our growth and our sanctification and what we can expect as believers.

[00:30:49] We resist the flesh.

[00:30:50] You said it earlier.

[00:30:51] We resist the flesh every day as we live by faith in the Son of God.

[00:30:54] Yeah.

[00:30:56] So I think what's interesting too is Paul didn't write this six months or even a year or two after his experience on the road to Emma.

[00:31:02] Not the road to Damascus.

[00:31:06] You have Paul writing a season in his life.

[00:31:08] He's a seasoned believer.

[00:31:11] And, you know, in what probably his, I think, his most famous work would be Romans.

[00:31:16] You know, he puts this right smack dab right there in a most important part of this experience between six and eight, you know, six, eight, and nine, really.

[00:31:26] Imputation, union with Jesus.

[00:31:28] That's right.

[00:31:29] Eternal hope.

[00:31:30] There's this war.

[00:31:31] Right.

[00:31:32] Right.

[00:31:33] you can, and I, Paul uses a lot of military tactics and language.

[00:31:37] He uses, I mean, listen, he's using armor.

[00:31:39] He's using swords, fiery darts, and Ephesians, right?

[00:31:44] And I think what he's saying is you have to understand your weak points.

[00:31:49] You got to understand where you're open to suscept, you know, you're susceptible for attack.

[00:31:54] And this is why he says, don't make provision for your flesh, because if you do, your flesh will take over, it'll go after it.

[00:32:00] I mean, you hear these types of links.

[00:32:01] Why would you say don't make provision for your flesh?

[00:32:02] Because, listen, you're dragging around a really powerful piece of material that will take you down if you let it.

[00:32:10] That's right.

[00:32:10] This is why the renewing of our mind, Romans 12, just fast forward a few chapters, right?

[00:32:16] He says, What?

[00:32:17] It's the constant renewing of the mind because the mind overpowers the flesh.

[00:32:22] So the mind tells the flesh, no.

[00:32:24] And when we don't do that, then the flesh will rear its.

[00:32:28] Man, Justin, you and I have experienced the slavery to our flesh.

[00:32:32] We know what it's like when the flesh is hungry and powerful and you feed it.

[00:32:36] Man, it's so hard to fight back against that.

[00:32:38] This is why Paul, in Colossians 2, says: if you're going to try and use the law or other disciplined means like asceticism to control your flesh, it's of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

[00:32:51] Chapter 3, verse 1.

[00:32:52] Where does he call you to look?

[00:32:54] Christ.

[00:32:55] Renew your mind in Christ, the power of Christ.

[00:32:58] So, by no means are we saying, well, you know, this is your experience.

[00:33:01] Just, you know, use the gospel, believe in grace.

[00:33:04] no, no, no, no.

[00:33:05] We're over here warning you about the power of your flesh.

[00:33:08] So you'll take it serious and not, you know, it's kind of like a, it's kind of like teaching your kids about the dangers of the road or the dangers of a snake or the dangers of fire.

[00:33:18] You want them to understand it so they respect it and they appropriately behave around it, right?

[00:33:25] Right.

[00:33:27] A few things we could talk about.

[00:33:28] So many.

[00:33:29] I want to try to speak pastorally to the listeners a little bit for a moment to comfort you.

[00:33:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:37] So, for all of the believers listening to this podcast, what I'm about to say is true of you.

[00:33:43] You don't want to sin.

[00:33:45] No.

[00:33:45] Your flesh craves it.

[00:33:46] I understand that.

[00:33:47] But in your inner man, you do not want to sin.

[00:33:50] When you do sin, you lament it.

[00:33:54] Or maybe you're bothered by the fact that you don't lament it as much as you should.

[00:33:59] But still, the point is, you're perplexed in your soul over sin.

[00:34:04] And sometimes, when you, if you're like me or you're like John, when you give in to sin, it really does feel as though you've been taken captive, as though you've been carried away against your will.

[00:34:14] And I've done and said this thing, and I'm not even quite sure.

[00:34:18] Like, it doesn't even feel like me.

[00:34:20] I feel almost like schizophrenic.

[00:34:23] You know, like there's part of if I said that, right?

[00:34:26] That phrase comes out of your mouth.

[00:34:27] Yeah.

[00:34:28] And what we're talking about there, in one sense, is the reality of indwelling sin that Paul writes about so beautifully in this chapter.

[00:34:35] so this is our reality and this is our condition.

[00:34:37] We don't want it to be this way.

[00:34:38] And so, when Paul cries out, wretched man that I am, who will deliver me?

[00:34:42] That is the cry of every Christian.

[00:34:44] And let me encourage you with this: that you cry that in your soul because you have become convinced by the Holy Spirit through the law, right?

[00:34:54] That what you're doing, like that, that thing is evil and that the law is good, right?

[00:34:58] You've come to delight in God's law, and you don't want to break it.

[00:35:04] You cry this because you've come to love the Lord and you're grieved by the thought of offending him.

[00:35:09] And so you know, as you read Romans 7, that's what Paul writes about is his day-by-day experience as a Christian because it's the plague of your own heart.

[00:35:19] And so, then the encouragement, too, in thinking about the corruption of the flesh and the fact that this battle is not going away and that the flesh will not be sanctified.

[00:35:28] There's a reason why we sing words like I'm about to quote in some of our favorite hymns.

[00:35:34] Battle it and going away.

[00:35:36] One day we'll be freed from it.

[00:35:37] And so, what do we sing now?

[00:35:39] We say, oh, that day when freed from sinning, right?

[00:35:43] I shall see thy lovely face, clothed then in blood-washed linen, how I'll sing thy sovereign grace.

[00:35:51] Or, dear dying lamb, thy precious blood shall never lose its power till all the ransomed church of God be saved to sin no more.

[00:36:02] Right?

[00:36:02] That's a future reality.

[00:36:04] The saints have always understood this.

[00:36:07] But in the here and now, beloved, it's a battle.

[00:36:10] And we fight hard.

[00:36:12] Sometimes it goes okay.

[00:36:14] Many times it doesn't go very well.

[00:36:17] And we're torn up over it.

[00:36:19] And so then, what's the hope?

[00:36:21] Well, it's what we talk about on this podcast all the time.

[00:36:24] It's the ministry of the Holy Spirit, because pointing us to Christ, that's where I'm going, because the evil one in our own consciences, they regularly say to us, you have way too much sin, which is a true statement.

[00:36:37] You don't have enough faith, also a true statement.

[00:36:41] You're not repentant enough.

[00:36:43] That's exactly right.

[00:36:44] You don't have the joy that a child of God should have.

[00:36:48] True.

[00:36:49] Your hold of Christ is weak.

[00:36:51] Right?

[00:36:52] All of that's true.

[00:36:54] And so then the ministry of the Holy Spirit, brother, is to take our gaze off of ourselves and fix it on Christ.

[00:36:59] Amen.

[00:37:00] Right.

[00:37:01] And the Spirit of God, the irony is the Spirit of God does confirm to us that we in and of ourselves are in fact nothing, but that Christ is all in all.

[00:37:11] Right.

[00:37:12] And it's not, you know, as many have said before, and as we've said on the show, it's not our hold of Jesus that saves us, it's Jesus.

[00:37:19] It's not our joy in Christ that saves us, it's Christ.

[00:37:22] It's not even our faith, right?

[00:37:23] Faith is an instrument.

[00:37:25] Amen.

[00:37:25] It's the blood and righteousness of Christ.

[00:37:28] Amen.

[00:37:29] And so we look to him.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:31] Listen, there are times, and I'll encourage everybody: if you don't think you can get trapped in sin.

[00:37:36] Man, James even says you can get trapped in sin to the point where you might even die from it.

[00:37:41] This is an interesting passage.

[00:37:43] I read this on Sunday.

[00:37:44] I'll read it now, and then I'm going to turn to something hopeful, and then we'll go to SR, JP.

[00:37:48] Perfect.

[00:37:49] 1 Timothy 5:20 says this: As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all so that the rest may stand in fear.

[00:37:57] This is later, and you know, this is another Paul.

[00:38:00] Paul isn't saying they're not a believer.

[00:38:02] He's like, hey, look, there are people who finally give in to the battle.

[00:38:05] You need to rebuke them, meaning, like, hey, don't do that.

[00:38:08] But then he says things that are so precious.

[00:38:11] And so I'm just going to just say this.

[00:38:15] Read this.

[00:38:16] This is Titus.

[00:38:16] I'm gonna read a couple of passages for you.

[00:38:19] This is Titus 3:4.

[00:38:20] It says, But when the goodness and loving kindness of our God appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration, the renewal of the

[00:38:30] Holy Spirit, whom he poured out to us richly through Jesus Christ, so that being justified by grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[00:38:40] This saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works.

[00:38:48] These things are excellent and profitable for people.

[00:38:52] Listen, Paul counteracts the fight, the war, the good works.

[00:38:56] He always points us to the hope of Christ.

[00:39:00] He always points us to what God did on our behalf.

[00:39:04] And so we're gazing constantly at what a loving God has done, and because of that, we go, Okay, I can keep, I can keep fighting.

[00:39:12] Because he didn't look at my fight and say, Okay, Jon, you're fighting, I'll give it to you.

[00:39:17] No, he gave it to me and then says, Hey, Jon, go fight.

[00:39:21] You're good.

[00:39:22] I love you.

[00:39:23] You've got this because I live in you.

[00:39:25] And if you keep reminding yourself, you know, what is, I'll just quote it again, 2 Peter 1:9.

[00:39:30] You've forgotten.

[00:39:31] you've been cleansed from your former sins, is why you forgot you stopped fighting.

[00:39:35] Yeah.

[00:39:35] The Christian life is the given life, man.

[00:39:37] That's right.

[00:39:38] Yeah, he gives us everything, and then he says, Now go and live and fight.

[00:39:42] Yeah.

[00:39:42] And that's kind of a nice dovetail into what we'll be talking about on the regular show next week.

[00:39:47] That's right.

[00:39:48] We're now going to pivot, though, to our second podcast that we record each week called Semper Reformanda.

[00:39:54] Semper Reformanda is just the name of kind of a related ministry of Theocast for our members, people who have partnered with Theocast financially.

[00:40:01] And what Semper Reformanda gives you access to is not only this additional podcast each week, but also additional teaching content, Theocast U, and some other resources that we make available to our members, as well as an app where

[00:40:13] you can interact with other people who are engaging with and wrestling with the same things that you are.

[00:40:18] And that app is an encouraging place to be.

[00:40:21] A lot of people crossed over 700 people in there.

[00:40:24] Yeah, praise the Lord.

[00:40:25] And a lot of good, like QA going on in there, people helping each other, sending resources to one another, all that good stuff happens there.

[00:40:33] So, if you're interested in learning more about how you could partner with Theocast or being a Semper Reformanda member, head over to theocast.org.

[00:40:39] You can find all that information there.

[00:40:41] Jon and I are going to go have this additional conversation where we talk maybe a little bit more transparently or pastorally or in more theological depth.

[00:40:48] It just depends week to week.

[00:40:50] Today, I wouldn't mind talking a little bit about what I assume as a preacher, Jon, and what, like in light of Romans 7, how that affects us as preachers and pastors, in terms of our posture and our tone,

[00:41:03] and some of the things that exist out there that maybe sound and feel different from where that comes from.

[00:41:08] Might be a good conversation.

[00:41:09] I love it.

[00:41:09] So, we're going to head that direction and have that conversation.

[00:41:12] Hopefully many of you will join us over there.

[00:41:13] If not, we'll talk with you on the regular pod again next week.

[00:41:16] Grace and peace to you.