Why Do I Still Struggle with Sin? (w/ Luke Kjolhaug)

Transcript

Edited machine transcript. May contain errors.

[00:00:01] Have you ever asked yourself this question, why do I still struggle with this sin?

[00:00:05] I thought over time, as I become a more mature Christian, I would struggle less.

[00:00:10] I would have less temptation.

[00:00:11] I thought sin would become less enticing, or I would sin less.

[00:00:16] These are all common questions.

[00:00:19] And there's a biblical answer to this.

[00:00:21] And there's a proper way of understanding our flesh and the spirit, the power, the side of us that we call the saint.

[00:00:27] And it's called saint-sinner reality, where we're both a sinner and a saint at the same time.

[00:00:33] And what does the Bible say our expectation should be?

[00:00:36] Should eventually we have a 70-30 experience where 70% of us is not sinning and we're living righteous and 30% isn't.

[00:00:43] We start out 50-50.

[00:00:44] These are important questions.

[00:00:46] And that's what we're going to talk about today.

[00:00:47] I have a special guest with me, and he's written a book on the reality of a saint sinner.

[00:00:52] It's a great discussion.

[00:00:53] Stay tuned.

[00:00:56] Before we start the podcast today, let's take a moment and focus our hearts and our minds on Christ.

[00:01:02] Let's look to Christ together.

[00:01:04] If you've walked with Jesus for a while, you know, the tension.

[00:01:07] You love him, but you still sin.

[00:01:10] You want to obey, but you still fall short.

[00:01:14] One moment you feel close to God, and the next, you wonder

[00:01:18] how could he still love someone like you?

[00:01:21] That's the saint and sinner reality.

[00:01:23] Luther called it summa justis et pecator.

[00:01:26] At the same time, righteous and sinner.

[00:01:29] It's not a glitch in the Christian life, it is the Christian life.

[00:01:34] In yourself, you're still weak.

[00:01:36] You're still broken.

[00:01:38] You're still fighting sin.

[00:01:39] But in Christ, you are already righteous, already loved, already accepted.

[00:01:45] Both are true, and the gospel holds them together.

[00:01:48] When you fail, you don't look inward for reassurance, look outward to Jesus.

[00:01:54] He's your standing before God, not your performance, not your progress, Christ alone.

[00:02:01] This truth keeps you from despair when you fall and from pride when you grow.

[00:02:07] So today, when you feel the war inside between who you are and who you long to be, remember this: your identity isn't found in the struggle, it's found in your Savior.

[00:02:20] Look to Christ, He's the one who justifies the ungodly, sanctifies the weary, and one day will glorify the broken.

[00:02:29] Let's jump into the topic.

[00:02:31] All of Christ for all of life

[00:02:35] All of Christ for life.

[00:02:46] Welcome to Theocast.

[00:02:47] It's good to be back with you and I have another episode.

[00:02:50] I've got my friend Luke here with me.

[00:02:52] I'll get into that in here in just a minute.

[00:02:54] I'm Jon Moffitt.

[00:02:55] I'm pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[00:02:58] And if you'd like to learn more about our ministries, you can go to theocast.org where we have all kinds of books, and we have a community there that has classes available.

[00:03:07] And that community is growing, it's about 2,500 people, and it's a wonderful place to ask questions.

[00:03:12] There are people from around the world, so, a lot of prayer requests.

[00:03:15] It's a fun group.

[00:03:16] Love for you to come check it out.

[00:03:18] With me today, they're going to do a book review, but really, I want us to talk about a subject that I love.

[00:03:25] And with me today is Luke Chellog, he is a pastor in Minnesota, where I'm assuming it's pretty cold right now.

[00:03:33] So our weather just changed here.

[00:03:36] Yeah.

[00:03:38] I have friends in Minnesota, and they're like, but the summers are amazing here.

[00:03:42] I'm like, well, they're not wrong.

[00:03:47] I think I'll stick with the summers in Tennessee.

[00:03:50] But no, Luke and I were able to spend a little bit of time at the 15-17 conference that we were both at about a month ago.

[00:03:58] But I have actually had your book longer.

[00:04:00] I was given your book, I think it was a pre-copy, when I was in Arkansas.

[00:04:05] And so I've had the opportunity to read through this and just not have had the opportunity to get Luke on.

[00:04:10] So finally, we got to meet, got to talk a little bit.

[00:04:13] And so, Luke, you're a pastor.

[00:04:14] You've been a pastor for five years in Minnesota.

[00:04:17] And tell us a little bit about you, tell us about your church and your family.

[00:04:21] Yeah, thanks, Jon.

[00:04:22] This is awesome.

[00:04:22] I'm glad to have the opportunity to come on and chat with you about this book.

[00:04:27] Yeah, I've been pastor here at Elam for going on five years now, I suppose.

[00:04:32] Before I was here, I was a pastor on the East Coast in New Jersey, Princeton, New Jersey.

[00:04:39] Church of the Lutheran Brethren is the denomination that I'm a part of.

[00:04:43] So it's a pretty small, I think we have like a hundred and I don't know, 110 churches in the U.S., something like that.

[00:04:50] But you go over to Africa and it's kind of exploding.

[00:04:54] So, yeah, that's a little bit about my kind of denominational background, but before I was a pastor, I was actually a civil engineer for four years.

[00:05:06] So, yeah, it's been kind of a strange thing, like that, that shift, and it was more you talk to different people about their call to ministry.

[00:05:16] And some are like, Well, God got hold of me, and I just had to be a pastor, and it was like an undeniable call.

[00:05:22] For me, it was nothing like that.

[00:05:24] It was more just like I'm kind of discontent with what I'm doing right now.

[00:05:30] And also, I want to learn more about why I believe what I believe.

[00:05:35] And so, if I go to seminary to get a degree and just use that to raise a family, like it will not have been a loss.

[00:05:42] So, I don't know, it's kind of a

[00:05:46] not a like linear way God led me into the ministry, but clearly it worked.

[00:05:52] So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:05:54] Well, God definitely has His ways of bringing us into wherever our vocation might be.

[00:06:01] So, this topic, oh, before I get into it, Doug, or not Doug, but I've done a podcast recently with Doug.

[00:06:08] Luke wrote a book that I'm only going to mention now, but I'm going to talk to you about it later at the end of this podcast.

[00:06:13] But this is a book I definitely highly recommend for you to get.

[00:06:17] But it's the subject that I really want us to talk about.

[00:06:20] And so I'll talk about this book here in a little bit.

[00:06:22] One of the things that I love about my Lutheran brothers is how much this is emphasized, the idea of saint and sinner.

[00:06:33] Um, I'm not sure exactly what your theological background is, um, and we're going to definitely hear about it, but I was not raised in the awareness of Reformed faith, law, gospel distinction.

[00:06:44] I was raised in an Arminian Baptist background.

[00:06:47] And so, the idea of a saint-sinner reality, which we'll get to an explanation here in a minute, was not my experience.

[00:06:53] Really, the way I grew up and I experienced it was that

[00:06:58] Jesus is definitely my Savior.

[00:07:00] He forgave my sins.

[00:07:01] He cleansed me of all my unrighteousness.

[00:07:04] And it was almost as if I am this new creation.

[00:07:08] I'm this new being.

[00:07:10] And now this expectation is that I need to live exactly what I have become.

[00:07:16] And this new creation, you know, and I would hear verses like, hey, Jon, the old has passed away.

[00:07:21] Behold, all things are new.

[00:07:23] The Holy Spirit now lives within you.

[00:07:25] And so it wasn't that they expected perfection, but they didn't have a category for sin, except for if you were doing that, then you probably should start questioning your salvation.

[00:07:35] Like, well, what's wrong with you?

[00:07:37] And they would give you really measurements: like, here's how to measure whether you think that you're really saved.

[00:07:46] And if you're still struggling with these kinds of sins, or if you're having a problem, or if there's some kind of a habitual issue that you're, you probably need to question your salvation.

[00:07:55] And this is, I think, a lot of people's experiences where you come in to Christianity and there's a heavy emphasis on the new life, but it's not the new life in its totality, it's the new life of like

[00:08:10] half of it, which then creates a lot of despair.

[00:08:12] I, what I ended up doing is just hiding a lot of sin.

[00:08:15] I would just pretend, you know, I was somebody different.

[00:08:19] But, Luke, what's your experience with this?

[00:08:22] Is this something that you grew up underneath, or how, how was this?

[00:08:25] How did you come to understand this type of teaching?

[00:08:28] Well, I'm a pastor, so I am no longer a sinner.

[00:08:31] I'm just a saint.

[00:08:32] So that's working out pretty well for me.

[00:08:34] That's how it works, right?

[00:08:35] Exactly.

[00:08:35] Exactly.

[00:08:38] No, it was funny.

[00:08:39] I did grow up in attending a Lutheran church, but I feel like theologically my formation, for whatever reason, came more from Christian radio than maybe the sermons that I was hearing, and I love Christian radio, right?

[00:08:52] Like, there's nothing intrinsically bad about it, but the particular brand that I was listening to, it was a lot of fluffy clouds and rainbows, kind of, and it was never, yeah, it was.

[00:09:05] It I resonate a lot with what you just kind of described because that was my experience

[00:09:11] as well, where, like, yes, Jesus is there, he's an important part of things.

[00:09:16] We're never not going to talk about Jesus, but as far as being like him being an ongoing presence in your life and needing his daily forgiveness, that part of it was sort of, yeah, I would say that was

[00:09:32] a big piece of the puzzle that just wasn't really there for me for whatever reason.

[00:09:39] Right.

[00:09:39] Right.

[00:09:40] So, do this for our listeners, explain a little bit this phrase.

[00:09:44] It's saint-sinnered.

[00:09:45] Sometimes we use this phrase, and people think they know what they mean, like law, gospel, distinction, and then you have them define it, and you're like, Yeah, that's not what we mean by law, gospel distinction.

[00:09:54] So, when we say Saint Sin or someone uses a pecator, what is it?

[00:09:58] Why is that such an important distinction really coming out of the Reformation?

[00:10:03] Why is this so important?

[00:10:05] Yeah.

[00:10:06] Well, you're saying it, I think, a lot better than I because I don't speak Latin, and that sounded right.

[00:10:10] I don't either.

[00:10:11] I just copy, I copy Chad or somebody else off of that.

[00:10:14] I don't know where I grabbed that.

[00:10:15] That's a bad guy to copy either.

[00:10:17] Exactly, right?

[00:10:18] Yeah, the whole similar similar uses epicater, this idea that we're simultaneously Christians, that's important to recognize.

[00:10:26] Christians are simultaneously saints and sinners, this side of heaven.

[00:10:30] So we have kind of this dual sort of Jekyll and Hyde identity, where we are fully, I think that's that's a key word here in this definition, too.

[00:10:40] We're fully saints and fully sinners.

[00:10:44] This is a part that we get a little bit uncomfortable with because I think by default, our version of I don't know, Christianity is sort of this like Nike version where you just do it, right?

[00:10:59] Where little by little, this old sinner side of me becomes like less of a percentage of my identity.

[00:11:08] I go from 48% sinner to 47% on one day, and then hopefully, like throughout my life, there's this kind of widening gap between the two, right?

[00:11:19] Yeah.

[00:11:20] But I think what we're talking about, and we're saying simultaneously, saint and sinner, is: we're saying that you, as a Christian, me as a Christian, there's never a day that goes by in my life where I don't need

[00:11:32] the full forgiveness of Jesus, not just the partial forgiveness, not just a little bit, but like, I am a sinner through and through.

[00:11:40] That, and that's like a qualitative rather than a quantitative kind of distinction, I think, when we're talking about sin there.

[00:11:47] So, yeah, simultaneously, saint and sinner at the same time, at one and the same time, righteous and sinful.

[00:11:52] There's kind of different ways you could phrase it, but that's sort of the heart of it.

[00:11:56] Yeah, and I think everybody, you know, if you were to press people, yeah, I mean, I have a desire to sin at times, I don't want to do that.

[00:12:04] And then I have a desire to want to do right.

[00:12:07] And so they feel that tug of war.

[00:12:10] But

[00:12:11] it depends on how you were raised, or it depends on what you listen to.

[00:12:15] When you talk about Christian radio.

[00:12:17] Christian radio can tend to emphasize, I think, the saint side of it, which, you know, I've heard people say, hey, if we focus on too much of the sinner side, people are going to be too beat down.

[00:12:26] They're going to always just feel so horrible about themselves.

[00:12:30] It's almost almost like a self-love, like they're not going to love themselves.

[00:12:35] And I'm like, there's a lot about us we don't want to love.

[00:12:39] Paul literally, Paul says it this way: there are parts about him that he hates.

[00:12:46] Yeah, he doesn't mess around about that.

[00:12:48] Yeah.

[00:12:49] yeah, and I love how he uses the present tense when he describes himself.

[00:12:54] He's saying, Listen, I am the greatest sinner that I know.

[00:12:57] And yet, in that same chapter, he's talking about the wonders and the glories of Christ's union to him, right?

[00:13:04] I think, even, I think when Paul talks about like you're a new creature, all things have passed away, behold, all things have become new.

[00:13:11] Sometimes they translate that as like a new creation.

[00:13:14] But I think some of the older translations, which I would agree with, is new creature.

[00:13:19] In other words, if you think about it, before Adam, there was just purity, right?

[00:13:26] So in Adam, there was just purity.

[00:13:28] So then Adam falls, and we go from a state of purity to a state of sin because, you know, in so in Adam all died, right?

[00:13:36] And then

[00:13:38] Christ comes, the new covenant comes, and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us.

[00:13:42] And Paul is saying, there, this is a new, like, this type of being that is that was once dead and impure in Adam, but now has the spirit inside of them.

[00:13:54] Their body is still impure, but they're standing before righteous, they're standing before God is now righteous.

[00:14:01] That kind of existence has never been.

[00:14:03] That is a because that's not Jesus.

[00:14:05] Jesus is not that.

[00:14:06] Jesus is not Saint-Sinner.

[00:14:08] Praise God for that.

[00:14:08] That would be horrible.

[00:14:10] Yeah, it would be in a bad spot there, yeah.

[00:14:13] So, this is a new kind of creature where everybody else in the world, everybody, and when they're born, they are born under Adam, therefore, they're born in this cursed sin where their flesh just takes control constantly all the

[00:14:26] time.

[00:14:27] And then the spirit comes in.

[00:14:29] And, you know, it's hard to say it this way, but really, what is the way the New Testament, I think, at times described it, Luke, and I'd love to free you to talk about this, is that there's now

[00:14:40] a war that happens between these two powers, your flesh and the spirit.

[00:14:46] 100%.

[00:14:46] And I mean, this is exactly what the Apostle Paul talks about.

[00:14:49] I know there are debates about Romans 7 where Paul is talking about the good that I want to do, this is the exact thing that I don't do, and the evil I don't want to do.

[00:15:01] This is the same thing I find myself continually drawn back toward.

[00:15:05] And I would argue that that is, and I'm probably in the minority here, but I would argue that that is Paul talking in the present tense as a converted believer.

[00:15:15] And there are certainly debates about that.

[00:15:17] But you can go to places like Galatians 5 as well, where there is no debate about who is writing.

[00:15:23] This is the converted Paul, and he's talking about the spirit and the flesh, and there is this war that happens within us between the old Adam, this old sin nature that we have, and then the new Adam, this

[00:15:35] new creature that you'd mentioned, that we have been made into and are continually being made into, right?

[00:15:42] Like there's a now but not yet aspect of this.

[00:15:46] Um, and the two of those they don't get along very well, like they're at war with one another, and I think we feel-I don't know, I just like reflecting on my own time growing up.

[00:15:57] I can remember times talking to pastors about just like particular sins that maybe I was struggling with in my own life, and I would talk about it in such a way as like this struggle is the problem.

[00:16:13] The fact that there's this tension between what I want to do and what I actually do, like, that's a bad thing.

[00:16:21] Help me exterminate this.

[00:16:23] Help me get rid of it.

[00:16:25] But the more that I, and I think this is part of what I'm trying to do with this book, is to help us see that that internal struggle is a sign of life.

[00:16:34] Like the very fact that there is a civil war there, that presupposes that there is a new creature for the old to war against, right?

[00:16:43] And that didn't used to be the case.

[00:16:45] So this, this, the fact that there's tension and that there's um that we we feel that civil war is actually in a weird way uh kind of a a good thing because it it's the christian life.

[00:16:59] This is what we walk in.

[00:17:01] This is how we live this side of heaven.

[00:17:05] And I think you can talk too about like, well, the saint side is, I think it's important to emphasize too, the saint side is ultimate, whereas the sinner side is penultimate.

[00:17:16] So, again, like the we are only sinful this side of heaven, and you know, ultimately, our true identity is going to be like, we're going to become who God has already declared us to be.

[00:17:28] So, it's a tension, though.

[00:17:30] It's a wrestling, and it's not one that we're super comfortable with because we would prefer either ors to both ands, I think.

[00:17:37] That's just so much neater.

[00:17:40] Yeah.

[00:17:41] Yeah, the tackle end to the podcast is all of Christ for all of life.

[00:17:44] And I think that that's the part we forget that if there wasn't a remaining sin, if there wasn't a struggle within the body, we wouldn't need all of Christ to survive, right?

[00:17:55] If we had the new body now, if we had that experience, then we would just be walking in pureness.

[00:18:01] And this is why you have three different times it says, you know, walk by the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, right?

[00:18:07] So putting, you know, looking unto Jesus, why would we do that?

[00:18:12] Because we need to set aside the weight and the sin that easily besets us.

[00:18:15] So, if I'm not looking unto Christ, that means I'm going to have sin that sets me up, that messes with me.

[00:18:22] I think that even 1 John comes in, you know, he just slams down the gauntlet.

[00:18:28] He's like, if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.

[00:18:31] Right?

[00:18:32] Yeah.

[00:18:34] You're like, oh, I'm a liar.

[00:18:36] It's what he just says, you're a liar, and the truth is not in you.

[00:18:39] And so, and I think this is important, but at the same time, John is very concerned with that, hey, we need to confess our sins.

[00:18:49] What I love about 1 John, I've said this for years, and I know it made people feel uncomfortable because it made me feel uncomfortable the first time I may have heard it.

[00:18:56] Someone else said it.

[00:18:56] I don't know.

[00:18:57] I just copy everybody else.

[00:18:59] I don't have an original, I've had original sinful thought, but a good thought I don't know if I've ever had.

[00:19:05] But God, in many ways, what this doctrine is teaching us is that God is expecting us to sin and to struggle.

[00:19:13] This is why we walk by faith, right?

[00:19:16] He says, Yeah, no, no, it's an expectation because of the world that He's saving us out of, right?

[00:19:23] This is why John is saying this.

[00:19:25] Like, if you think you get to a point where you don't have sin, you're not rightly understanding your status of who you are.

[00:19:32] This is why one of the greatest gifts that we have, Hebrews 4, is that we at any moment, in any time, can run and ask for mercy.

[00:19:41] He goes, In a time of need, you can, with boldness, come before the Father and ask for mercy and grace.

[00:19:46] Why?

[00:19:46] Well, because we're sinners, right?

[00:19:48] And how is it that we would have the capacity to do that?

[00:19:51] Because we're saints.

[00:19:52] Like we have the right to boldly run into the presence of God because we're seen as righteous, but yet our flesh has sinned, and we need mercy and we need forgiveness.

[00:20:01] If you're new to theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

[00:20:04] It's called pietism.

[00:20:06] Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy?

[00:20:11] That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

[00:20:18] It's dread versus joy, really.

[00:20:20] That's pietism.

[00:20:21] Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

[00:20:29] And we have a little book for you, it's free.

[00:20:31] We want you to download it, and we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism, reformed theology, really.

[00:20:39] How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when Jesus says, Come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

[00:20:47] You can download at our website, just go to theocast.org.

[00:20:50] This is where I want to kind of go with this, Luke.

[00:20:52] It's kind of like this is an interesting doctrine, but this has massive implications to our Christian faith and how we think about life.

[00:21:01] So, if we don't get this right, what ends up happening to a lot of believers?

[00:21:06] Like, what's your experience of pastoring people or even You know, looking around just even in culture?

[00:21:11] If we don't get this right, what are some of the negative effects upon us?

[00:21:15] Yeah, man, it's not good.

[00:21:17] It is not good.

[00:21:18] I mean, if it's not this both and situation where you are a sinner and you're a saint, the only other possible alternative is you're either a sinner or you're a saint.

[00:21:30] If you are a sinner without the saint, then you're driven to despair because you have no hope of the righteousness of Christ and of His forgiveness.

[00:21:42] And if you're only a saint, then you have no ongoing need for the daily forgiveness of Christ, dependence upon him, and you're, yeah, it's not good at either.

[00:21:57] It kind of either leads to one of two places, I would say, pride or despair, and neither of those are good places to be.

[00:22:04] Yeah, I think just kind of tying this in, you know, if we tie in the law and the gospel into this, the law is what ends up comes in and reminds us of what God's expectation is, which is

[00:22:15] absolute perfection.

[00:22:17] And we look at that and we realize, oh, there's no way, I am.

[00:22:21] I am utterly, but if you do not have the law, then you end up relativizing God's expectations of you, and you can look at your life and say, Yeah, I am a really good saint, you know, I'm doing

[00:22:33] really, really well, and that creates less dependence upon Christ.

[00:22:36] That creates less, we don't walk by faith.

[00:22:38] We're walking by faithfulness.

[00:22:40] And I don't know about you, but I've walked, I've been around cultures where we emphasize faithfulness.

[00:22:44] And it's like, well, look, I have read my Bible.

[00:22:47] I have done this.

[00:22:48] I've done this.

[00:22:48] I've done this.

[00:22:49] I've done this.

[00:22:49] I'm a faithful Christian.

[00:22:51] And so we're trusting in our faithfulness.

[00:22:54] And yet, we are, you know, we can look at the fruits that are coming out of our life, and it's like the fruit of your life is the evidence of what you are doing.

[00:23:05] But when we're thinking about meekness and gentleness and kindness, we're thinking about showing compassion and mercy towards each other, that seems to be absent from your list.

[00:23:14] Peter calls that an ineffective and unfruitful Christian, right?

[00:23:17] Right, so we have to have the law because the law reminds us that what God expects us of us, man, we're never, and then we hunger for the gospel.

[00:23:27] And the gospel is what you had just said: that good news that not only does He forgive us of our sins, that we're our conscience is made clean.

[00:23:35] Like, God does never, I love what in the psalmist says that He separates it from as far as the east is from the west, he remembers it no more.

[00:23:43] But it's not only that, because that's a partial gospel.

[00:23:47] If it's not just, if it's just forgiveness, then this is what I was getting at as well.

[00:23:55] Do you spend the rest of your life trying to prove to God your sainthood?

[00:24:00] Like, I know I'm a saint because of what I have done.

[00:24:03] And the good news of the gospel says, no, this is 2 Peter 1.

[00:24:07] Everything that is required for life and godliness has been granted to you by divine power.

[00:24:13] That means all of the righteousness that your forgiveness and your righteousness.

[00:24:17] Like you have nothing left to do.

[00:24:20] He calls you a saint because of what Christ has done for you.

[00:24:24] We call this the act of obedience of Christ, right?

[00:24:26] So when you get one of these off, you can get one, a despairing Christian who like they

[00:24:34] can't seem to find any joy in Christ because all they can see is their sin.

[00:24:38] Or you get a very judgmental Christian, and all they ever do is judge themselves by other people because they are extremely faithful.

[00:24:45] And so we need both.

[00:24:47] We need to understand who we are according to the law and who we are according to the gospel.

[00:24:53] And that keeps that balance of saints sin a reality.

[00:24:57] Yeah, I think too, of like what Paul says in Romans 6, because I mean, I love the way that Paul writes his letters and I love the way he argues because he anticipates the arguments that are going to

[00:25:07] come up against him and the counterpoints, and he's like, Yeah, so what then?

[00:25:11] Should we just sin that grace may increase?

[00:25:12] And he says this multiple times: like, by no means, don't by no means, we who have died to sin, how can we live in this any longer?

[00:25:19] Right?

[00:25:19] So, I do think it's important to talk about, like, when we talk, I'm preaching through the book of Galatians right now at my church, which is an awesome book.

[00:25:30] We're talking about the freedom in Christ in chapter five.

[00:25:34] It is for freedom that Christ has set us free and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

[00:25:40] But then Paul also goes on in that same passage to talk about how we're supposed to use that freedom, right?

[00:25:48] It's freedom from something, freedom from bondage to the law, but it's also freedom for something.

[00:25:54] It's freedom to love and to serve my neighbor.

[00:25:57] So I think there's, you do have to be aware, like, there are those two ditches on the highway of Christian freedom, right?

[00:26:04] Like, there's the legalism side on the one hand, but then there is also kind of the side of antinomianism or license or anarchy, however, you want to call that too.

[00:26:16] And both of those are real, they certainly exist.

[00:26:20] But yeah, so it's a matter of kind of how you how you use that Christian freedom, I think, is important.

[00:26:26] Yeah, I think that's a good point that you're making.

[00:26:28] So, like, if you have a proper understanding of Saint-Sinner reality, it works when you understand what God has called us to.

[00:26:36] Like, if you think about the Antinomian, they, it's almost like they don't understand the purpose of life, but to fulfill their own personal desires, right?

[00:26:45] And so they don't want any kind of structure because it's like, no, no, no, I am free to go do whatever I want.

[00:26:51] And it's like, well, don't tread on me.

[00:26:53] Yes, you're

[00:26:55] that's right.

[00:26:56] And it's like, yeah, but we've been called into the kingdom of light.

[00:26:59] We have called to be proclaimers.

[00:27:01] We have been called into the body of Christ.

[00:27:03] Like, there's an actual purpose for your life.

[00:27:04] That's why Peter can say you're ineffective and unfruitful, and he doesn't mean in your salvation.

[00:27:11] Like, that would make no sense.

[00:27:12] Like, if like, I'm going to go to this section because I think it's really important.

[00:27:16] So, in 2 Peter, I have just, I preached through this last year, and I really enjoyed it.

[00:27:24] So, 2 Peter chapter 1, he says this, because this is really good for both the legalist and the antinomian.

[00:27:31] His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

[00:27:35] So, whatever it is I am to live, and however, I am to be godly, there's nothing left for you.

[00:27:42] Like, do you really want to go to God and go?

[00:27:45] I don't know if Jesus' divine power was quite enough to get me across the line.

[00:27:50] I mean, how offensive is that?

[00:27:52] Right?

[00:27:52] When he died on the cross and he perfectly lived and you never messed up, I don't know if that was quite enough.

[00:27:58] But this is what we practically end up doing.

[00:28:00] So then he says, and how do we know?

[00:28:02] Like, how do we know about this divine power?

[00:28:05] He says, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence.

[00:28:10] And I love how he goes on because then he talks about: well, maybe it was granted to us, but now we have to like do something so we don't lose it.

[00:28:19] By which, yeah, by which he has granted to us, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of

[00:28:31] sinful desire.

[00:28:32] So, how is this happening?

[00:28:35] This is all happening through what?

[00:28:37] His very great promises, which the promises have nothing to do with you.

[00:28:41] So, this is really, really important.

[00:28:43] So, then he says, for this very reason, make every effort.

[00:28:46] And it says, supplement your faith, but I think another way of saying this is to almost give away or express, like express the joy of what it is that you have in your faith because he's talking about love

[00:28:59] and meekness and gentleness and kindness.

[00:29:02] And then he says, This: For if these qualities are yours, right?

[00:29:06] Sorry, I'm sorry, verse 9.

[00:29:08] For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his former sins.

[00:29:17] So, what he's getting at is that once you understand who you are, like you have been granted everything you need for life, and this reality is going to be there, this saint-sinnered reality.

[00:29:28] But you have a focus for your life.

[00:29:30] The focus for your life is not sinless perfection.

[00:29:33] The focus for your life is to try and reflect what God has given to you in the gospel, like to love and be gracious and kind while we repent, right?

[00:29:43] If the antinomian stops short, it's like, look, I have everything I need for life and godliness, and their life becomes self-focused.

[00:29:50] It's all about themselves and self-gratification with no instruction from the Lord.

[00:29:54] Well, that's that's no benefit.

[00:29:57] That is ineffective and unfruitful.

[00:29:58] That's exactly what he means.

[00:29:59] By definition, right?

[00:30:01] Yeah.

[00:30:02] But I will go on to say this, and this is truly a problem in the United States.

[00:30:07] I've seen individuals like this, but look, I don't know about you, I've seen more individuals who seem to not believe that verse three and four exist and that his divine power is partially given to them, and it's their

[00:30:21] fruit, their good works.

[00:30:23] That's the emphasis.

[00:30:24] And what happens is they become legalist, meaning I must perform in a certain way.

[00:30:31] In other words, I will never, or I'm not going to prove that I'm truly a Christian.

[00:30:36] And so, this is the other side of the ditch that you're talking about.

[00:30:38] You got one side where it's like they don't care how they live, and it's not helpful to anyone.

[00:30:43] And then, in my opinion, the legalists are also not very helpful people because they're so introspective.

[00:30:49] They so focus on themselves.

[00:30:52] And they can get really harsh towards other people.

[00:30:54] Like they can, they can be, if you don't live your life the way that I live my life, then you're probably not a Christian.

[00:31:00] Has that been your experience?

[00:31:01] Oh, 100%.

[00:31:02] Yeah.

[00:31:02] And it's rarely in an overt kind of way where it's like they're saying you must listen to Christian music only in order to be justified before the like nobody comes right out and says that kind of thing, but

[00:31:15] it's more just like the culture that's there, and it's kind of in the background.

[00:31:20] And I was thinking, too, as you were talking, like, Paul talks about how the law is written on the human heart, right?

[00:31:27] The gospel is not.

[00:31:28] So, we speak fluent law, we don't speak fluent gospel.

[00:31:33] That's good, that's really good, and like just by nature, we are drawn toward checklists and we are drawn toward, you know, do this, don't do that.

[00:31:42] That kind of vocabulary, it just comes natural to us.

[00:31:47] But this idea of the gospel that God does something outside of myself, that he's going to gift me something that I don't deserve.

[00:31:55] In fact, that I was like his enemy wanting to throw this gift back in his face, that I was the one that crucified his son, and yet he still went after me while I was his enemy to reconcile

[00:32:06] me to God.

[00:32:07] That is an idea that the human heart will never in a million years come up with.

[00:32:15] So, yeah.

[00:32:16] And that is such a great observation because, dude, I'm totally going to use that.

[00:32:22] That is so good.

[00:32:23] We speak fluent law.

[00:32:25] I mean, this is true.

[00:32:26] because what is Paul says in that same later on?

[00:32:29] He goes, How will they hear unless there's a preacher?

[00:32:33] So, innately inside them is the law condemning them, but the gospel has to, and this is like, see, the sign right behind me.

[00:32:40] Here we go, extra nose outside of ourselves.

[00:32:43] This is the whole idea that the gospel, the good news, is outside of us and it needs to be brought to us by means, right?

[00:32:51] This is why Paul's like, consider how to build one another up through psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, right?

[00:32:56] Faith comes by hearing and hearing through the.

[00:32:58] Now, this is so important.

[00:33:00] People always say, through the word.

[00:33:02] no, through the word of Christ, right?

[00:33:06] Christ for you.

[00:33:08] So if we are left alone to ourselves, we are going to be speaking the law to ourselves, either to condemn us, if we understand it correctly, or we relativize it and we think, Oh, I have done a good

[00:33:21] job.

[00:33:22] And this is where Jesus comes in and slams you and goes, Oh, yeah, you didn't murder anybody, but you hated somebody.

[00:33:28] Oh, yeah, you didn't cheat on your spouse, but you thought about it and you're guilty, right?

[00:33:33] And this is that we need that reminder of the law, but the only thing that truly comes and motivates us and sets us free and gives us joy is Christ for you, the hope of Christ, right?

[00:33:44] 100%.

[00:33:45] That this is, I know that a lot of times people like to use this phrase.

[00:33:49] So I'm going to pick a couple pet peeves right now, but when it says, you know, preach the gospel to yourself, I know what they mean.

[00:33:54] And the way I would say that, if I were to reword it biblically, I would say, set your mind on things above, but the preach-you don't preach the gospel to yourself.

[00:34:04] That's a supernatural gift given to you by God through the means of the church.

[00:34:08] Right?

[00:34:08] This is when you show up on Sunday, God shows up on Sunday and He preaches to you through the word, through the sacrament, through the song, and through the preacher.

[00:34:18] That's where the preaching happens.

[00:34:19] So don't ever think you're a good preacher to yourself.

[00:34:22] What's that?

[00:34:23] I said sometimes, in spite of the preacher, he brings his word.

[00:34:27] Yeah, that's good.

[00:34:29] Yeah, we take communion every Sunday, and there are times where I feel like, man, I just bombed that sermon.

[00:34:34] I'm so glad we got communion coming next.

[00:34:36] At least they're going to get Jesus some way.

[00:34:38] Yep, absolutely.

[00:34:40] I was just thinking about those two ditches, too.

[00:34:42] Like legalism and antinomianism, they're really just versions of the same thing.

[00:34:46] Like, they're both idolizing different stuff.

[00:34:49] You know, legalism idolizes the law, turns it into this, not just something that drives me to Christ, but turns it into an end in and of itself to be worshipped.

[00:34:58] Whereas antinomianism just kind of worships everything else, I guess.

[00:35:03] Money and food and pleasure, and I mean, ultimately, it's the worship of self-it's what it is.

[00:35:09] That's a good way to put it, yeah.

[00:35:11] Yeah, because if Christ is the ultimate, then we're going to lay our life down for Christ.

[00:35:16] But if we are the ultimate, then everybody else lays their life down for us and for our gratification and what we want.

[00:35:23] Because antinomian doesn't help anybody, no one is ever helped by antinomianism.

[00:35:28] And technically, nobody's ever helped by legalism either.

[00:35:32] Exactly.

[00:35:33] And I wouldn't want either one of them.

[00:35:36] They're both horrible.

[00:35:37] Yes.

[00:35:37] I think we probably have more of a legalistic issue in evangelicalism than we do antinomianism.

[00:35:43] Probably resonate with that.

[00:35:44] Yep.

[00:35:46] Well, I listen, I live in the belt buckle of this, you know, of the South where this is I very rarely, in Minnesota, you probably meet way more unbelievers than I do.

[00:35:57] Everybody at some point has some kind of evangelical story in the cities that I live in.

[00:36:02] And so entinoming isn't the issue here, it is people thinking that their performance is what matters.

[00:36:08] So I have people who won't come to church because they have been so exhausted and beaten up by legalistic preaching.

[00:36:17] And they don't, like, I'm going to go back to the Saint-Sinner reality.

[00:36:21] It's like, oh, you're struggling.

[00:36:23] Are you even a Christian?

[00:36:24] Do you love Jesus?

[00:36:25] You need to rededicate your life, right?

[00:36:27] Like, temptation is somehow a problem for a Christian.

[00:36:31] I'm like, what are you talking about?

[00:36:32] That's a normal experience for the Christian life.

[00:36:34] Paul literally says it's the normal experience.

[00:36:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:36:38] Yeah, no, totally.

[00:36:40] I mean, I'm in rural Minnesota, so we're not in, like, I don't know, metropolitan area where secularism might be more rampant.

[00:36:47] So, I kind of think we're sort of in the Bible belt, but okay, there's, there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of evangelicalism around where I'm at, too.

[00:36:55] And I, I agree, like, the legalism is just the ditch that a lot of us veer toward.

[00:37:03] I think it's good to just be aware of your natural tendency too, and to like be honest with yourself: say, hey, one of these, like, by nature, I'm going to tend to veer toward one of these ditches more

[00:37:12] than the other, but you're right, like the legalistic impulse, that's more something that's like the Bible is clear.

[00:37:18] This is written on the human heart, and self-salvation is anti-God, right?

[00:37:22] And that's where that comes from.

[00:37:24] So, yeah.

[00:37:26] I think that

[00:37:28] one of the other is I want to go to before we end, brothers, has been really good.

[00:37:32] This is, this for me, I think, what is what transformed my experience and my Christian faith in my early 20s when I finally came to the realization that the struggle against sin is normal and that it doesn't go

[00:37:48] away.

[00:37:48] Like, I was trained to think that over time, you were talking about like the math equation, it's like we start out 50-50 and then it's like 60-40, you know, 70-30.

[00:37:58] And I wish that was true, I know, but it seems like the more I know of Christ, the more aware of my sin I become.

[00:38:06] And what I like, what really helped me when I finally embraced this idea of that I will not be relieved of the sinner side of me until glory, until I am resurrected in the new heavens, the new earth.

[00:38:19] And that that dog hunts me down constantly.

[00:38:22] And if I take a moment's breath and just not like, don't acknowledge that, then it's like, this is what Paul talks about.

[00:38:30] Like, if you, if you stop resting, trusting, looking unto Jesus, the flesh will come and hunt you down.

[00:38:37] And it's the constant hunt.

[00:38:39] And so, every day for me, which has been helpful, is to wake up and say, There won't be a day where I won't fight my flesh.

[00:38:45] There won't be a day where I won't struggle.

[00:38:47] There won't be a day where I have to trust in the Lord for the temptations of my flesh.

[00:38:53] I mean, I think it's interesting that when Jesus said, he ends the Lord's Prayer and He says, Then deliver us from evil, or in some translations, deliver us from the evil one.

[00:39:00] Why?

[00:39:01] Because Ephesians 6 tells us he's constantly hunting us down, he's coming after us.

[00:39:05] He wants to, Peter, what does Peter say later on in 2 Peter?

[00:39:08] He's like, be sober-minded, be vigilant.

[00:39:10] Why?

[00:39:11] Because he wants to get hold of your flesh.

[00:39:13] He wants to enslave you once again.

[00:39:15] Once I realized that, it helped me wake up and go, It is normal to struggle.

[00:39:21] I need Jesus.

[00:39:23] It doesn't, it's not a sign that your faith is deficient in some way.

[00:39:27] You're not like a, you're not a, a, I don't know, yellow belt Christian compared to all the black belts or something.

[00:39:34] Okay.

[00:39:35] Yeah, one day you'll get the black belt and you'll never struggle to get it.

[00:39:38] You'll get there.

[00:39:38] You'll get there.

[00:39:39] Yeah.

[00:39:39] Exactly.

[00:39:40] I have older gentlemen in my church and they're in my small group.

[00:39:43] And I love it because I've got guys that are in their 20s, and then I have, I'm actually guys right out of high school.

[00:39:49] They're 18, 19.

[00:39:50] And then I have guys in their 60s and 70s.

[00:39:53] And we'll talk about, you know, we'll have moments of confession and prayer and what, you know, and where are we at?

[00:39:58] And it's interesting to see the guy's face when I've got the 65, 70-year-old over here saying, You know, I'm still trusting the Lord, you know, resting in Him, you know, fighting my flesh and temptation for lust.

[00:40:08] And you can see they're like, It's 70.

[00:40:10] Oh, man.

[00:40:11] I thought eventually it would go away.

[00:40:13] It's supposed to be better than this by now, man.

[00:40:16] Exactly.

[00:40:17] Not until you go in the grave, man.

[00:40:20] This is why I love Romans 7.

[00:40:22] You were talking about that.

[00:40:22] Paul says, Who will save me from this body of death?

[00:40:26] Yeah, thanks be to Christ.

[00:40:28] Not my faithfulness, not eventually over time, you know, my own personal efforts of doing good works.

[00:40:35] He says, Christ's will be the one who ends up delivering me.

[00:40:38] So it's Christ that I must, one, from my salvation, and two, he sustains me by faith.

[00:40:46] I think that's this, I'll end with this, Luke, and I'll throw it over to you for your thoughts.

[00:40:50] The misnomer, if you guys didn't hear anything, hear this.

[00:40:53] The misnomer of most Christianity is: put in enough work and your flesh will eventually not bother you.

[00:40:59] And that's just a lie, it's just not true.

[00:41:04] Yeah, I had a thought as you were saying that, and now it's slipped by me.

[00:41:10] You're okay.

[00:41:12] But no, this right there, if I would say anything, you and I, when we get up in the pulpit every single Sunday, we want everyone to look and find despair in their flesh and find hope in Christ.

[00:41:23] Yeah, that doesn't mean, oh, just hold on to your sin.

[00:41:27] No, we have a great high priest who calls us to repent.

[00:41:30] And he says, You are my dear child.

[00:41:32] You're a saint.

[00:41:33] You have not been fully healed.

[00:41:35] We have the already not yet.

[00:41:37] We have already in Christ, but we're not yet, fully resurrected until, and this is God's design, and we don't really understand it.

[00:41:44] that's up to Him, right?

[00:41:45] Yeah, He's withholding His judgment on all creation.

[00:41:49] This is the only way I can understand it: He's going to judge all of creation at once, therefore, our bodies are going to be used as vessels of mercy to express as ambassadors to those who have yet been

[00:42:01] saved.

[00:42:02] And so we walk by faith as he uses us to rescue others, and one day judgment will come, and we get the new body, which will be wonderful.

[00:42:10] And I love when he says, This is when I wipe away the tear.

[00:42:13] I wipe it away when you have a new body.

[00:42:16] So it's totally normal, dear child, dear friend, dear brother, dear sister who's listening to this.

[00:42:21] It's totally normal to wake up every day and say, I'm going to fight the flesh and I'm going to find joy in Christ.

[00:42:28] That's the normal experience.

[00:42:30] And if you want some comfort in that, you want some help in that, and you want a longer, a lot more scripture and a lot more explanations and some really great personal stories.

[00:42:40] I would encourage you to get this book right here.

[00:42:42] It's Saint Center, a surprising primer or primer.

[00:42:45] How do you say it?

[00:42:46] For the Christian.

[00:42:47] I don't want you on the primer.

[00:42:50] So, great book.

[00:42:52] And I mean, look, it's forwarded by Michael Horton.

[00:42:56] So if that doesn't motivate you to buy it, I don't know what's wrong with you.

[00:43:00] I mean, seriously, you may not know who Luke is, but you know who Horton is, so go get it.

[00:43:06] Do you like this advertisement?

[00:43:07] That's good.

[00:43:07] That's good.

[00:43:09] 1517.org, you can buy it there.

[00:43:12] Or if you want to get it on Amazon, you can get it on Amazon as well.

[00:43:15] And I think if you're out of the country, it's available in Kindle, if I remember correctly.

[00:43:20] Is that correct?

[00:43:20] I believe so, yes.

[00:43:22] I believe, I think I saw it on there for Kindle.

[00:43:24] I could be wrong.

[00:43:25] But Luke, this was great.

[00:43:27] If people want to get in contact with you or if they want to follow you and what you're doing, I should have asked you this ahead of time.

[00:43:32] Do you have socials or anything like that that they can be blessed by your ministry?

[00:43:37] Yeah, I'm not super active on the socials, um, but you can find me on Facebook and Instagram, and I have a YouTube channel called Foxhole Theology, where I just do little video clips, whenever I get the spare time

[00:43:51] between being a dad and a pastor and writing and all that good stuff.

[00:43:54] So, um, yeah, love to get in contact with you.

[00:43:58] Yeah, that's awesome.

[00:43:59] Well, brother, thank you so much.

[00:44:01] This has been refreshing to me.

[00:44:04] Luke also participates with 1517 Ministry.

[00:44:07] If you can go over there, I believe you have articles over there, or is it just a book that's there?

[00:44:12] Quite a few.

[00:44:12] Yeah.

[00:44:13] So you can go read his articles that are over there.

[00:44:15] I recommend 1517.

[00:44:17] They've been a tremendous help for me.

[00:44:19] But this is, I think this is their first book that they put out on this particular topic, if I remember correctly.

[00:44:26] So, and it's this is what I appreciate about 1517 is unless it's Chad Bird.

[00:44:31] Chad Bird's books are like that thick, but this is a readable book.

[00:44:35] You can sit down, read this.

[00:44:36] It's good for your teenagers.

[00:44:38] Sometimes people ask me, hey, what's a good book I should get from my teenagers?

[00:44:42] Luke has done a fantastic job of writing this on a level where younger people can read this.

[00:44:47] You're 15, 16, 17-year-old, and they need to know this.

[00:44:51] They're going to be programmed to think that they have to perform or there's something wrong with them, and then they end up hiding their sin.

[00:44:58] And this is a great book.

[00:44:59] If you're looking for like a family devotional, something like that, I would grab that.

[00:45:03] So, well, brother, thanks for that.

[00:45:04] And for those of you that are listening, we've got some more interviews coming.

[00:45:08] I got a couple more book interviews coming.

[00:45:10] And so stay tuned.

[00:45:12] God bless you.

[00:45:13] Hey guys, real quick.

[00:45:15] Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[00:45:19] So, where do you go?

[00:45:20] How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[00:45:24] We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources are there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's

[00:45:36] there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[00:45:38] You can go check it out.

[00:45:39] The link is in the description below.

[00:45:42] All of Christ for all of life

[00:45:46] All of Christ for all of life