The Difference Between Reformed Theology and Calvinism

Transcript

Edited machine transcript. May contain errors.

[00:00:06] Hi, this is Jon, and today on Theocast, Justin and I want to explain a really important historic distinction: the Calvinistic movement, the new Calvinism, the Young, Restless, and Reformed, and historic Reformed Confessionalism.

[00:00:20] We've already done two episodes: Pietism and What is Reformed Theology, and that has led us to this place where we have to help you understand the difference between just being a Calvinist, or as we say, Calvangelical, and the

[00:00:32] historic Reformed faith.

[00:00:34] We hope you enjoy the discussion.

[00:00:36] Stay tuned.

[00:00:36] If you're to Theocast, we know that many people who start listening to us struggle with their assurance?

[00:00:42] What does it even mean to walk by faith?

[00:00:44] Or how do you rest in Christ?

[00:00:46] So we put together a free e-book called Rest, and it's where you can learn about the sufficiency of Christ and the differences between the law and the gospel.

[00:00:54] And that's an important distinction.

[00:00:56] If you'd like to learn more, just go to our website theocast.org.

[00:01:08] Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to find their rest in Christ, conversations about the Christian life from a reformed, pastoral, and confessional perspective.

[00:01:21] If you're wanting to know what we do, after none of that made sense, we want you to know Jesus Christ and the gospel.

[00:01:28] Clarify the gospel and then understand your place in the kingdom.

[00:01:32] What is the purpose of it?

[00:01:33] So, your host today are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[00:01:38] And I'm Jon Moffitt.

[00:01:39] I'm pastor of Grace Reform Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[00:01:43] And Justin, for the sake of today's subject and time, we're not even going to do announcements, brother.

[00:01:48] We're going to jump into it.

[00:01:49] How's that sound?

[00:01:50] Praise be to the Lord of hosts, man.

[00:01:54] People love the announcements, though, John.

[00:01:56] Yeah, they do.

[00:01:56] You're so good at them.

[00:01:57] Yeah, there're so good.

[00:01:59] You've seen the title of today's episode: The Difference Between Reformed Theology and Calvinism.

[00:02:05] And we refer you to our conversation from two weeks ago on what is pietism.

[00:02:09] That's going to inform today's conversation, as well as last week's podcast: What is Reformed Theology?

[00:02:14] We're not going to just rehash those conversations, we're going to try to cover some of that material, but in a more maybe autobiographical way, more of an existential, like your experience, kind of way.

[00:02:23] And how do I discern the difference between something that is Calvinistic versus something that's reformed in a more full-orbed way?

[00:02:30] The reason we're having this conversation today is that many people amongst evangelicals who call themselves Reformed, when they use that language, what they essentially mean is that they're Calvinists, that reformed is synonymous with Calvinism in the minds of

[00:02:46] many people.

[00:02:47] Or maybe to be reformed means I affirm the five solas of the Reformation, or perhaps it's that I uphold predestination or the doctrines of grace as they're called, pertaining to how God saves His people.

[00:03:01] But that's really all people mean by saying that they're reformed.

[00:03:05] I want to go ahead and none of the things that John and I articulate today are meant to be pejorative at all.

[00:03:12] We're not impugning anybody's motivations.

[00:03:14] All we aim to do is have a conversation in the interest of clarity because clarity is important, just so that we can draw appropriate distinctions and understand where we are and what we believe, how we think, all of

[00:03:25] that.

[00:03:26] So, our premise today is to try to expose the differences that do exist between Calvinism as it most often appears in the evangelical context and historical Reformed theology in the historical reformed faith.

[00:03:42] So, off we go.

[00:03:43] Off we go.

[00:03:44] I think I want to start a little bit.

[00:03:46] I mean, this is going to be somewhat biographical, and then we're going to talk historical, just kind of what's going on with the

[00:03:53] You know, Christian faith in general.

[00:03:54] Justin, we would both agree that there has been a rise in the interest of Calvinism.

[00:04:01] I would argue because it's biblical.

[00:04:02] As people study the Bible, they see the fallen nature of man.

[00:04:07] I mean, uh, there's been great preaching and teaching on in Adam all died, you know, and the second work of Adam.

[00:04:14] And total depravity is it's almost impossible not to see in scripture.

[00:04:19] I mean, you were dead in your trespasses and sins.

[00:04:22] You know, John 6, there's just, I remember John 6 was like that paramount moment.

[00:04:26] Yeah, that's a English moment coming down the mountain from John 6.

[00:04:30] You know, I was just like, how do I unsee that?

[00:04:32] And it was in my Bible because I was reading it through Ephesians and it was like Ephesians 2, or it was in Ephesians 2, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, like the cross reference to that was

[00:04:41] John 6.

[00:04:42] And I had read both those passages my entire life, and that just kind of started me down the road.

[00:04:47] And then it led me to what I call the gateway drugs.

[00:04:50] It's something we've used in the past of that phrase.

[00:04:52] But, you know, guys like John Piper, John MacArthur, RC Sproul were really introductory to this.

[00:05:00] And I would say in the last 25, 30 years, you really have seen an increase in writing, podcasts, podcast titles, even the Calvinist movie that kind of really documented this explosion, where even men like Mark Driscoll made this

[00:05:15] extreme.

[00:05:16] Mark Driscoll and Matt Chandler, who have big wide reaches, really helped make this popular, along with John Piper.

[00:05:23] And so there was that side of it being that guys were discovering, I think, the beauty and the joy of Calvinism and it going from a kind of derogatory say, I grew up in Calvinism, was like there was

[00:05:39] Satan and then there's Calvinism.

[00:05:40] You know, it's his doctrine.

[00:05:41] It was the doctrine of demons.

[00:05:42] I literally was told it was the doctrine of demons.

[00:05:45] Yeah, well, I mean, at best, yeah, Calvinism is a boogeyman.

[00:05:48] Exactly.

[00:05:48] Right.

[00:05:49] And then there was, there was a lot of great historic work done on it, and I'm thankful for that.

[00:05:53] I remember John Piper's series on Calvinism that he did, and I just consumed that over and over again.

[00:05:59] I listened to it, I remember it.

[00:06:01] And, you know, that was really helpful for me just because he was so kind and gracious and patient with people when walking through some of the arguments that I had against it.

[00:06:12] And so, you know, that part of it isn't for us, that's kind of the wing I found myself in.

[00:06:18] Where I grew up

[00:06:20] independent Baptist, which is very Arminian, and but there's a heavy emphasis on Bible reading and Bible study.

[00:06:29] And, you know, what's interesting is I think James White may have made this observation that Calvary Chapel has created more More Calvinists than any other denomination on the planet because they do emphasize like the plain reading of the

[00:06:41] text, right?

[00:06:42] Just like, what does the text say?

[00:06:43] And if you do take the text plainly, it's hard to argue that God's sovereignly saving sinners by His divine will.

[00:06:52] So, you know, we would just want to acknowledge that I believe God has used a lot of this for me in my life, and I know thousands of others in a beneficial way.

[00:07:03] Same for me.

[00:07:04] You know, I've talked many times on the show about my Christian upbringing and being in a pretty atheological, liberal kind of environment that was moralistic.

[00:07:14] And I was always thirsting for something more and wanting something more robust.

[00:07:19] And so, in my early 20s, when I encountered Calvinism, you know, the doctrines of grace, and even a commitment to trying to preach through books of the Bible in the local church that I was attending at the time,

[00:07:29] this was all new for me.

[00:07:31] And the Lord used it mightily, and even learning about historical things like Augustine and Pelagius and how they understood the fall of man differently, and clearly seeing that Augustine was right in how our nature had fallen in Adam,

[00:07:46] and that we're dead in our trespasses and sins, and that the only way we could then have life is if God gives it to us.

[00:07:53] All of those things were transformational for me and significant in my Christian life, many years ago, now, because I'm not in my early 20s anymore.

[00:08:02] But I can remember encountering these things.

[00:08:04] And I've made the observation before, I know, with people in my church all the time, as I survey, and I think you agree, John.

[00:08:11] So, as we survey the landscape of American evangelicalism, there is undeniably a resurgence in the interest in interest in the doctrines of grace and in Calvinism over the last several decades, sometimes referred to as New Calvinism or the

[00:08:25] Young, Restless, and Reformed Movement.

[00:08:27] And I think you can understand where this comes from because, you know, if you think about the last half of the 20th century, there's the megachurch movement and the seeker-sensitive movement and all of this attractional ministry stuff where

[00:08:39] it's showy, it's kind of in the minds of many people, it's fluffy, there's not a lot of substance to it.

[00:08:46] It's kind of like cotton candy, you know, it's sweet, tastes good, it's kind of attractive in some ways, but then there's just not a lot of staying power.

[00:08:52] And so then there were a lot of young people, like in our generation, John, that grew up in the church wanting more.

[00:08:59] And then there is a return to a lot of good historical stuff.

[00:09:03] And this new Calvinism, Young, Restless, and Reformed movement kind of washes up on the shore.

[00:09:07] And you have things like the Gospel Coalition and Together for the Gospel and all these kinds of things.

[00:09:13] And there was a tremendous amount of juice and energy, and people rallied to it with good reason.

[00:09:19] Like you said, I was tremendously helped by so many of these teachers and these preachers.

[00:09:24] I mean, nine marks would be part of that rise as well.

[00:09:27] For sure.

[00:09:27] For sure.

[00:09:28] So helped by so many men and women in that vein.

[00:09:33] But here's what I think is happening, and this maybe will launch us into our conversation even more today.

[00:09:39] But I think these personal and just historical observations are important for people just to have lenses on to see this stuff.

[00:09:46] It only makes sense to me that as people encounter these old categories of Calvinism and the doctrines of grace, and they rediscover these old writings and to realize that we're not the first people who have tried to read

[00:10:00] the Bible and understand it.

[00:10:02] And they find all this helpful.

[00:10:04] People continue, and it's robust, and it kind of gives me some of the substance that I feel like I've been lacking.

[00:10:08] Like I'm eating really healthy food now, and this is good for me.

[00:10:12] Well, as you start to do that, you want more of it.

[00:10:15] So you keep reading and you keep listening and you keep studying, and then you crash up against more historical categories.

[00:10:22] That's right.

[00:10:23] You crash up against things like confessions of faith and catechisms and all of these kinds of things.

[00:10:30] And you begin to uncover there in your study, not only of scripture, but of the history of the church, that man, just like Calvinism was new to me and it made sense to me according to scripture, there's a

[00:10:43] lot of other stuff, too, that's really helpful that Christians have thought about before, that also seems to square with the Bible that I just didn't know about before.

[00:10:52] That's right.

[00:10:53] And so you and I have walked that road over the last, what, 15, 20 years.

[00:10:58] Right.

[00:10:59] And there are a number of other people that are listening to the show that are either on that road right now or are maybe just coming to a crossroads and are kind of wondering, what do I do here?

[00:11:08] Oh, yeah.

[00:11:08] I mean, I was in my very real early 20s, when I had that aha moment in my office as a youth pastor, going, I think I believe in whatever this is, but I didn't know what to call it

[00:11:21] back then.

[00:11:22] Sure, and you know, once you start going down the road of historic theology, you start realizing that there's a whole world.

[00:11:30] It's like, you know, I've had these moments in my life, and we'll talk about them here, but uh, it's like every time you walk through the cabinets, you know, the wardrobe and you land in Narnia, you're like, Whoa,

[00:11:42] what is all of this?

[00:11:43] You know, I remember I just couldn't stop talking about Calvinism, and my wife was like, You have to stop.

[00:11:50] Well, you gotta chill out, man.

[00:11:51] Exactly.

[00:11:51] Arcade stage was for sure, you know.

[00:11:54] But I just was so refreshing and it was make so much sense.

[00:11:58] Like everything was clicking, you know.

[00:12:00] And I think that experience gets a lot of people excited.

[00:12:04] And, but there's a there's a part that Justin and I, you know, it's, it's almost like we keep telling people, keep reading, you know, don't stop, keep reading.

[00:12:14] Because what has happened is that

[00:12:17] there's like a new subset of Christianity in the conservative evangelical world.

[00:12:24] Like, there's some one of the names we didn't even mention, but C.J.

[00:12:27] Hey Mahaney, which I know you know, sure.

[00:12:29] he has a whole new brand of Calvinistic, which is the charismatic Calvinism, right?

[00:12:34] With the sovereign grace ministries, and so there's like there's been these spin-offs where uh Calvinism is at its core, but that's like there's nothing really governing it.

[00:12:46] Like, Calvinism doesn't govern anything other than you and I agree that predestination is a thing.

[00:12:52] Yeah, and that God saves sinners.

[00:12:53] Yeah, that's about it.

[00:12:54] You know, you know, because you still have all kinds of brands of Calvinists out there where you could be charismatic, you could be Pentecostal.

[00:13:06] All right, so John, let's just cut to the chase.

[00:13:08] What do you think?

[00:13:09] Let's cut to the chase.

[00:13:10] Let's just cut to the chase here.

[00:13:11] And I think this will launch us into.

[00:13:13] Well, I just wanted to make one comment.

[00:13:15] Where I was going with this is that what Justin and I began to realize biographically, and this is where theocast comes into play: is that the distinctions theologically and historically are important because we have seen the ramifications of

[00:13:32] them in pastoral ministry and personal life experience.

[00:13:36] Because I'll say it this way, which will kind of launch it off.

[00:13:39] These three episodes go together: pietism, reform theology, and then now, this distinction, because I will say historically, the new movement, not Calvinism, the new Calvinism, the Young, Restless, and Reformed, and the Charismatic Calvinism are very pietistic in nature.

[00:13:59] So that's why we have to create a distinction between the Calvinistic movement of today and the Reformed historic movement.

[00:14:05] That's exactly what I was going to say.

[00:14:07] Cool.

[00:14:07] So, in cuttings, I just want to steal it from you.

[00:14:09] No, you're fine.

[00:14:10] Really, what we're trying to say is this.

[00:14:12] What we are saying is this, humbly and with all due respect to our brothers and sisters who might disagree with us, and that's fine.

[00:14:18] That's fine.

[00:14:18] From our vantage point, the Calvinism that exists and what many people call reformed theology that exists in the American church is a pietistic and revivalistic brand of Calvinism.

[00:14:32] And we're going to maybe illustrate this more further in the rest of the show, but if you go back and listen to last week's episode, you're going to hear things about covenant theology and about the law and the

[00:14:43] gospel and the distinction that exists between the two.

[00:14:46] You're going to hear about the means of grace.

[00:14:48] You're also going to hear about confessionalism.

[00:14:51] And I think all of those things sort of brought down on a wedge.

[00:14:56] A lot of what we're trying to help the listener understand today and maybe give you lenses to see is how if you take Calvinism and you put it with these other categories that have existed in the Reformed faith

[00:15:08] through history, the emphasis is different, slightly, but it's different than what you often get amongst Calvinists today.

[00:15:17] The tone is different.

[00:15:20] The takeaway is maybe slightly different.

[00:15:23] And there is an objectivity to it that is healthy and good.

[00:15:28] So it's not this objectivity that you see.

[00:15:31] Why do you see so many evangelicals running to Rome?

[00:15:34] Why do you see so many evangelicals running to like very sacerdotal versions of Christianity?

[00:15:40] It's because they're in search of something objective.

[00:15:43] Because everything they've ever had is all subjective.

[00:15:45] It's about their response, it's about their fervor, their discipline, their devotion, you know, in their conversion moment and then thereafter.

[00:15:52] So they're constantly evaluating themselves and they realize how far short of the mark they're coming.

[00:15:57] And so there's no hope, there's no peace.

[00:16:00] And people are craving for, I need to know that I can know that I can know that I have peace with God.

[00:16:06] And so they're looking for anything objective that they can cling to, and they're swinging on a pendulum from the subjectivism of pietism and revivalism.

[00:16:15] Maybe that's Calvinistic, but there's commercialism.

[00:16:18] They're swinging over to like Rome and sacerdotalism.

[00:16:21] And that's sad to see.

[00:16:23] I'll go ahead and say, if I can one more illustration, I'll just go ahead and now rather than saving it for the end.

[00:16:29] Many of the listeners will know, and I don't know this brother personally, and this is not in any way disparaging about him at all.

[00:16:37] Um, he says a lot of wonderful things that John and I would wholeheartedly amen.

[00:16:41] So, many are familiar with a Christian hip-hop artist named Flame, who recently, in the last few years, became Lutheran.

[00:16:49] And we, first of all, we have a number of Lutheran friends that are dear to us, and we love them and are so grateful.

[00:16:56] But what Flame is saying in many, like in some of his, his

[00:17:03] His songs and his newer albums is he's comparing Lutheranism to Calvinism and he is disparaging, in a way, Calvinism.

[00:17:12] And what I would want to say, and John, I'm not going to speak for you.

[00:17:16] I think you agree with me, is that the kind of Calvinism that Flame is rightly critiquing on those albums is a pietistic and revivalistic Calvinism.

[00:17:27] And so, what Flame has found is the confessional faith.

[00:17:31] He has found confessional Lutheranism, and he is reacting against revivalistic and pietistic Calvinism, I don't think what he's reacting against is the confessional reformed faith.

[00:17:43] And I'm saying this as a person that used to be a pietistic Calvinist.

[00:17:46] That's right.

[00:17:47] And so I've walked this road because all of the things that Flame is articulating on his albums and his struggles, and how we're always being pointed back in on ourselves, that was my life, which is why encountering confessionalism

[00:18:00] and the law and gospel distinction and all of these things that we've been talking about for weeks has changed my Christian life.

[00:18:07] I'm grateful.

[00:18:08] I'm humbled.

[00:18:08] It's a joy for me to be a pastor, to be able to preach and teach these things.

[00:18:12] So I think that's the experience, probably, of a lot of people out there.

[00:18:15] And maybe flame as an illustration is helpful.

[00:18:17] And even for me to say, like, bro, I'm with you in what you found.

[00:18:21] I think I've found it too, just in the confessional reform faith, not in confessional Lutheranism.

[00:18:26] Hey, guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this, and it's encouraging to you but you have questions so where do you go how do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources

[00:18:37] we have started something called the theocast community we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and

[00:18:49] you can share it and ask questions.

[00:18:51] You can go check it out.

[00:18:52] The link is in the description below.

[00:18:54] Shout out to our Brother in Christ and dear friend Jimmy Bueller, who came up with the phrase years ago where we were talking about this very thing.

[00:19:02] And just kind of on the fly, Jimmy goes, These are Calvangelicals.

[00:19:06] Yeah.

[00:19:07] You know, and it's great, it's a great phrase.

[00:19:09] And I'll have to text him to let him know we use this phrase again.

[00:19:11] It is a great phrase.

[00:19:13] But for some of you, I've asked over the years, where's Jimmy?

[00:19:16] Jimmy's doing great.

[00:19:18] He's working at a Christian school.

[00:19:20] I love him, and He's teaching Bible and history and love.

[00:19:22] That's right.

[00:19:23] He's sharing the gospel.

[00:19:24] And so we love our brother.

[00:19:25] Just schedules over the years, just haven't worked out.

[00:19:28] So, anyways, total side note.

[00:19:30] Yep.

[00:19:31] But if you go back to our old episode, you'll see Jimmy there.

[00:19:34] Everybody loved him.

[00:19:36] So, but Jimmy had a really good point because we are talking about evangelical Calvinistic.

[00:19:42] Now, historically speaking, Justin, evangelicals over the last 100, 150 years have been primarily that aren't confessional, are dispensational.

[00:19:53] And dispensationalists tend to not be covenantalists.

[00:19:56] And so our dispensationalist brothers are Protestants and evangelical.

[00:20:02] So Protestant means to protest Rome, your well, to bear witness.

[00:20:06] Right.

[00:20:07] Against it, saying we don't agree with their testimony.

[00:20:09] And then evangelical is really a phrase.

[00:20:11] This kind of just means we agree on the core essentials of the gospel.

[00:20:14] It's kind of where that came from.

[00:20:16] People of the evangel, the good news.

[00:20:18] People of the evangel.

[00:20:19] And so to call them Calvangelical, meaning that they would be a slight little bit more clarity, meaning that they're Calvinistic evangelicals.

[00:20:28] And I think that a lot of evangelicals today, a lot of people who promote Calvinism that are prominent tend to be very conservative dispensationalists.

[00:20:40] I'll give you an example of this would be someone like John MacArthur, or even John Piper, or even Matt Chandler, guys like this.

[00:20:48] And all those guys might not be dispensationalists, but they're evangelical.

[00:20:52] They would be more leaning dispensational because they would not hold to covenant theology.

[00:20:57] They would, yeah.

[00:20:58] They would hold some kind of either dispensation or some kind of like new covenant view or something like that.

[00:21:02] Exactly.

[00:21:03] Specifically, though, John Piper, I mean, John MacArthur is for sure holds to a dispensational view.

[00:21:09] And the reason why I mentioned this is important because historically, dispensationalism is a non-confessional.

[00:21:18] Listen, I love my dispensational brothers.

[00:21:20] I once was one.

[00:21:22] I was trained in a dispensational school.

[00:21:25] So I say this with as much compassion and not to be derogatory at all.

[00:21:31] Appreciation.

[00:21:32] Yeah.

[00:21:32] I mean, they have been great defenders of the Orthodox faith for a long time where they're trying to protect things like the sufficiency of scripture, things like that.

[00:21:40] But they tend to be non-confessional and pietistic in nature because historically, dispensationalists weren't Calvinist.

[00:21:49] They were more Arminian, free will, for like a free will Baptist kind of an idea.

[00:21:53] And it's been a more modern shift where our brothers are looking at the text, taking it more seriously.

[00:21:59] And you will see that I think the biggest name, in my opinion, would be John MacArthur of being, and he has taught five-point Calvinism, like all five points.

[00:22:10] And so, what ends up happening is that because he's conservative and Calvinistic, people then will then put him into the historic reformed camp.

[00:22:21] And I'm not here trying to be picky on who's in the boat, who's not in the boat.

[00:22:25] That's where that's not the point.

[00:22:27] It's just that there are category confusions, and there's why we'll sound Justin and I are going to sound different than someone like a Piper or a MacArthur or even a Matt Chandler because the positions that we're coming from

[00:22:43] are actually theologically different because we're understanding scripture.

[00:22:47] We agree with them on Calvinism.

[00:22:50] But when it comes to confessional theology, which is the rest of covenant theology and confessionalism and ordinary means of grace, law-gospel distinction, we're going to look at the text differently.

[00:23:00] Like all of the rest of scripture, we're going to actually look at it differently.

[00:23:04] When we come to the passages on like Calvinism, like you were dead in your trespasses and sins, if I preach that and MacArthur preaches that, it's going to sound the same because we agree with them on those passages.

[00:23:14] But when it comes to the rest of scripture, yeah, we're going to look at it differently because of the historic reformed approach, where their approach is either going to be like

[00:23:26] it's going to be more dispensational, or guys like Piper, who probably would not call himself a dispensationalist.

[00:23:32] No, but he's kind of a mono-covenantalist.

[00:23:34] Yeah, he would be more of a biblicist.

[00:23:36] Yeah.

[00:23:36] Same thing with a guy like Platt, or, you know, I don't have to keep going.

[00:23:42] No, let me just make a few observations here.

[00:23:44] I think, so let's take a few of the things that we outlined last week that are tenets of Reformed theology and just discuss them in brief regarding the kind of contemporary moment.

[00:23:54] So, covenant theology, you've brought it up.

[00:23:57] I think the guys who are Calvinists and are dispensationalists would disagree with covenant theology self-consciously.

[00:24:02] Like, they would say it's not helpful in terms of a way to understand the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, like hermeneutically, in terms of how we interpret.

[00:24:11] It's not good.

[00:24:12] I think a lot of guys that are more broadly evangelical Calvinists are going to be in a camp where they're kind of new covenant guys or progressive covenantalists, and they might not even have all the categories of historical

[00:24:24] covenant theology.

[00:24:25] They might not be vehemently opposed to it.

[00:24:27] They might kind of think they agree with it, but they're certainly not going to see it as a really important matter like you and I would in terms of how we understand scripture.

[00:24:36] So, when we talk about Jesus from all of the Bible, we're talking about covenant theology.

[00:24:41] You know, we're talking about understanding that this is one plan of God to redeem and save, accomplished through Christ.

[00:24:47] And covenant theology is going to help us understand how it all hangs together.

[00:24:50] I think on the law and the gospel distinction, I think there are a lot of Calvinistic evangelicals that would be nervous about the ways that we articulate that distinction.

[00:25:00] Yeah.

[00:25:02] And I know this because I've been in conversations with guys about it, just kind of covertly.

[00:25:07] I'm not really laying my cards on the table.

[00:25:09] I'm just kind of listening to guys talk.

[00:25:11] And the distinction between the law and the gospel, some people feel like, well, this is imposed upon scripture.

[00:25:17] You're forcing this on the text.

[00:25:19] And it's just, it's going to lead to lawlessness.

[00:25:21] You know, and there's not enough concern for holiness.

[00:25:23] And that's right.

[00:25:23] To which we would disagree with all of those takes.

[00:25:26] But for us, the understanding of the law and the gospel and the covenant of works and grace, those things go together in terms of how we see the scriptures unfold in God's two words of law and gospel.

[00:25:36] That's right.

[00:25:36] We've talked about ordinary means and how there's a difference of understanding there, where amongst many contemporary Calvinists, the ordinary means of grace contain spiritual disciplines that are personal, whereas for us, it's a corporate emphasis.

[00:25:48] Yeah.

[00:25:50] Go ahead.

[00:25:50] No, I was going to say

[00:25:53] almost as a point of illustration, Justin and I, we have a new community called Theocast Community, and there's an app, and someone posted a video in there asking our thoughts on a video from Paul Washer.

[00:26:04] And he makes this statement that I agree with him.

[00:26:07] Paul was saying, and I commend the guy.

[00:26:11] You could tell he was really sick when he was preaching this.

[00:26:13] I think it was at a G3 conference.

[00:26:14] So I was like, good for you.

[00:26:16] But he was he was uh saying he was making criticisms of modern-day Calvinists, which I agree with him, where he makes this statement where he says they're playing marbles with diamonds.

[00:26:28] They don't understand the jewel that they're holding.

[00:26:31] And so they treat it so frivolously.

[00:26:34] And his conclusion was: we need to be, what happened, you know, then he kind of went to the reform side of it and he was like, We don't need to be reformed, we need to be biblical.

[00:26:44] And he goes, Whatever happened wrong with being biblical.

[00:26:46] And I understand his heart, and I'm with him on that.

[00:26:50] But anytime, Justin, someone says that I just biblical, I just believe what the Bible says, that's not verifiable.

[00:26:57] Like, I don't know what you mean.

[00:26:59] Just because you say you believe a book, I don't know what you mean by that book.

[00:27:04] And the reason why, Justin and I are kind of arguing, saying, hey, Reformed theology isn't a cool past.

[00:27:10] It's not just Martin Luther nailing a 95 thesis to the door.

[00:27:14] It's not just John Calvin.

[00:27:16] It's not John Calvin's institutes.

[00:27:17] Right.

[00:27:18] So, like, reformed has a history.

[00:27:20] And that's the thing that we're talking about.

[00:27:22] Like, there's, we said five to six areas that historically the church has really wrestled with fighting against heresy and bad doctrine.

[00:27:31] And from that has come this wonderful track that you can run on, you know, safely put your train on and say, you know, I can trust where this is running because it's been examined and it's been looked at.

[00:27:44] Like from my reformed, I'm sorry, from my Calvinistic brothers, they feel safe enough to embrace John Calvin's five points, but then it's kind of like their history lesson stops there.

[00:27:58] Like, they don't really go past and really understand the art.

[00:28:01] You know, like, for instance, Sinclair Ferguson's work on the whole Christ is so important, understanding the art of creed.

[00:28:08] Like, we are reliving

[00:28:10] the marriage controversy.

[00:28:12] We are reliving it today.

[00:28:13] Yeah.

[00:28:13] Because we don't understand history and we're not reading it and understanding that, you know, as John or as Spurgeon said, that I think is so helpful.

[00:28:21] He's like, we read scriptures, assuming we're the first one to have the Holy Spirit and interpret it correctly.

[00:28:28] And it's what he was arguing, he was fighting the same issue that we're fighting today, where we're saying we don't need history, but yet we're repeating history.

[00:28:37] We're repeating heresies.

[00:28:38] We're repeating the same issues.

[00:28:40] Where, you know, we are, though, the faith that's once been handed down faithfully, we kind of just assume, like, well, after the disciples, everyone got it wrong, and now we're here getting it right again.

[00:28:51] Yeah.

[00:28:51] A couple of things that are popping up corner round in my brain.

[00:28:54] You know, we've talked about how so much of Calvinism today is pietistic, and there's an emphasis on the Christian life.

[00:29:01] And obviously, there's a preaching of Jesus, but the Christian life really becomes the focus and the emphasis.

[00:29:06] And I think that's pretty self-evidently plain in a lot of the preaching and a lot of the books that are written and that sell today.

[00:29:13] But then the biblicism thing that you brought up earlier, I think, is worth a mention here.

[00:29:19] And biblicism, kind of historically properly defined, is where you're going to be.

[00:29:27] You're going to be nervous about any doctrinal claim that is not explicitly stated in scripture.

[00:29:34] And alongside that, you are going to tend to diminish the importance of creeds and confessions and historical things that the church has concluded.

[00:29:44] So I'll repeat that.

[00:29:45] You're going to be nervous about any kind of doctrinal claim that is not explicitly verbatim stated in scripture, chapter and verse, and you're going to tend to diminish the importance of creeds and confessions.

[00:29:57] And I think that it's very clear that that is the kind of Calvinism that exists amongst most people today.

[00:30:04] That's right.

[00:30:05] That it is a biblicistic kind of Calvinism, which is not what John and I are trying to articulate.

[00:30:12] We are appealing to an historical confessional faith where we're not asking the question only, what does the text say or what does it mean to us?

[00:30:21] We're actually trying to, as a friend of mine put on Twitter or X or whatever you call it recently, that as a confessionalist, you bring the one holy Catholic Apostolic Church to Bible study.

[00:30:32] That's right.

[00:30:33] And the question is no longer: what does the text mean to me, or what does the text mean to us, but how have faithful saints historically understood this text?

[00:30:42] And that's the posture that we're coming with.

[00:30:45] And so, even when it comes to the law and gospel distinction or covenant theology, those are things text we understand that the church historically has identified these doctrinal categories, and then we go back to the scripture with them,

[00:30:58] with these tools in our backpacks, and it actually helps us to better understand the text.

[00:31:04] And that's a reformed approach and a confessional approach to even understanding scripture versus a more modern Calvinistic approach that is biblicistic at the same time.

[00:31:17] Yeah, you know, sometimes people will then hurl at us, and the Pactum has done a really good job on the difference between solo scriptura and solo scriptura.

[00:31:28] And so you can go listen to that episode.

[00:31:30] Love our brothers over there.

[00:31:32] But sometimes they hurl, hey, this is why the five souls came out to be because the Roman Catholic Church was promoting the same thing you guys are promoting.

[00:31:40] And unfortunately, that's just a lack of understanding on history.

[00:31:45] And I'm not trying to be a jerk.

[00:31:47] Both of us are not trying to be jerkish here.

[00:31:50] I think the like, if I were to tell you, what is the heart and purpose of this?

[00:31:54] I'm talking to the guy that I was 20 years ago.

[00:31:58] I'm talking to you.

[00:31:59] Like, I was this Calvinist who couldn't get enough almost exactly 20, maybe 21 years ago, is when I was like, I'm finally a Calvinist.

[00:32:06] I got embraced.

[00:32:07] Think, how old am I right now?

[00:32:08] Pretty close to that.

[00:32:10] And, you know, over the years of being able to watch and really examine and historically look at the Creeds of Confessions and allow history to inform me of where people have run off the road in the past has

[00:32:26] really brought a lot of comfort to me.

[00:32:28] And listen, all reformed, truly reformed, all reformed say the only authority that we have is scripture.

[00:32:38] I mean, our confession states it in the opening line.

[00:32:41] You know, the supreme and only authority is scripture.

[00:32:44] Sometimes we get confused thinking that because of history, that creeds of confessions are like how the Catholics put it, where the Catholic teaching is on par with scripture.

[00:32:57] We're not saying that.

[00:32:59] I think it's very important and clearly to understand that because sometimes when I know from my dispensationalist background, I can remember pastor saying, No creed but Christ, no confession but the Bible, which is a creed and a confession,

[00:33:10] by the way, in and of itself.

[00:33:12] So is the Schofield Study Bible.

[00:33:13] Right.

[00:33:14] Anytime you have some kind of a study Bible, you're at that point.

[00:33:17] Or the riry, or whatever you got.

[00:33:19] Right.

[00:33:19] Exactly.

[00:33:20] So we're just asking yourself: you know, is it verifiable?

[00:33:24] Who's verified it?

[00:33:25] How has it been accepted?

[00:33:26] Who's challenged it?

[00:33:28] What scrutiny has it stood underneath?

[00:33:30] And a lot of times, Justin, you and I and I aren't married to terms.

[00:33:33] We're not married to words.

[00:33:34] You know, like, I don't, you don't have to have the word reformed.

[00:33:37] I think it's just a great historic word that really is married to doctrine, but not terms.

[00:33:43] No, like, some people have a hard time with the idea of covenant of works.

[00:33:45] Well, I'm like, I don't care what you call it.

[00:33:48] Did Adam represent us all in the garden?

[00:33:50] That's right.

[00:33:50] Or if someone's like, I can't stand the word Trinity.

[00:33:53] You don't actually have to be Trinitarian in word, but you do in doctrine.

[00:33:59] Like you can't deny the trying part of God, right?

[00:34:02] You just can't do it.

[00:34:03] But you have to call yourself Trinitarian.

[00:34:06] It's helpful.

[00:34:06] Historically, it's helpful.

[00:34:08] Yeah.

[00:34:09] And that's all we're trying to get at: is that sometimes people think we're arguing for a particular brand of Christianity, like you have to be Baptist, or and we're not.

[00:34:17] We're just trying to challenge everyone and say, listen, the movement's great, Calvinistic movement is great, but

[00:34:26] we need the dialogue to continue.

[00:34:27] Yeah, and there's no badge of honor here.

[00:34:29] I mean, we're not worried about merit and all this stuff.

[00:34:32] And yeah, like if you wear these kind of shoes, you're better.

[00:34:34] I mean, it's that's stupid.

[00:34:36] I want you to do this.

[00:34:37] I want to do this too.

[00:34:38] Like, if I'm speaking to me 15, 20 years ago, 20 years ago is about, you know, I'm would talk to me about Calvinism.

[00:34:46] 15 years ago, I would talk about confessionalism and the law and the gospel at most pointedly.

[00:34:53] Because covenant theology and Calvinism kind of came together for me, but that's neither here nor there.

[00:34:56] But this is where I really want to go.

[00:34:59] If you're out there and you've embraced Calvinism, and

[00:35:04] you lean into the sovereignty of God, and He saves sinners.

[00:35:08] Salvation belongs to the Lord.

[00:35:10] And this is undeniable to me from scripture.

[00:35:13] And the Lord, our God is in the heavens, He does everything He pleases, and that's a good thing.

[00:35:17] And you're there, and in your best moments, it gives you peace to know that the only way you ever became a Christian in the first place is because God did it for you.

[00:35:28] And you read passages like John 6:37 to 40.

[00:35:33] You read passages like John 10, you know, in the like teens, and then in the like 27, 28, and you hear Jesus say to you, I'm never going to let you go.

[00:35:44] I'm going to raise you up on the last day.

[00:35:47] And you're like, okay, I'm safe because Jesus won't fail me.

[00:35:52] I may fail him, but he won't fail me.

[00:35:55] But yet you're haunted because you sit in an environment where there is so much emphasis on you, and there is all of this.

[00:36:04] We need to be serious-minded.

[00:36:06] We need to not be like the rest of the Christians out there who are just seeker-sensitive and just want to be comforted and just want to consume.

[00:36:12] We need to be devoted to God.

[00:36:14] We need to pursue obedience and we need to be strong in the faith and all of these things.

[00:36:21] And you need to obey, and you need to give your life to these things, and you need to discipline yourself, or you may end up proving yourself to just be a non-believer.

[00:36:30] Because that's where I lived, man.

[00:36:32] Like, I embraced the sovereignty of God.

[00:36:35] I embraced Calvinism and the doctrines of grace.

[00:36:37] I saw in them my only hope.

[00:36:39] But then there was also kind of out of the other side of the mouth was always this unsettling language of you're not doing enough.

[00:36:47] And if you don't do well enough, you're going to prove yourself to be a faker.

[00:36:50] God will save all of his elect, but you're going to prove yourself to not be elect through your lack of A, B, C, D.

[00:36:57] That's right.

[00:36:58] And we've referenced Matthew 7 a lot, but yeah, just that haunting feeling of I'm going to be one of these people that will have meant to follow Christ my whole life, and I'm going to stand before him at

[00:37:06] the end of it all, and he's going to tell me to depart from him because he didn't know me because I was a fake.

[00:37:12] And

[00:37:14] what I would say to me, to you out there, if that's where you are, is that according to scripture, Christ is a sufficient Savior, and that our union with Him will save us, period.

[00:37:28] And that these understandings of the law and the gospel, and the understanding of Christ as the plan of God from all of time to save and to be the representative of his people, and even of the ordinary means

[00:37:39] of grace, and how we're going to be sustained and how we're going to grow in the faith, these things change your life.

[00:37:45] It's just a different tone and a different emphasis because it becomes all of Christ and I fade into the background.

[00:37:51] I'm growing.

[00:37:52] I'm being sanctified, but it's not because I'm focusing on me, it's because my eyes are fixed on the Savior and I'm living life with the saints.

[00:38:00] And if that sounds like water in the desert to you, then consider the confessional faith.

[00:38:07] Consider the law and the gospel.

[00:38:09] Consider covenant theology and some of these things that we've been talking about for the last few weeks.

[00:38:13] Amen.

[00:38:16] Yeah, one of the things, Justin, as we're kind of just kind of close, bringing this to a close,

[00:38:23] I guess my challenge to you is this: is that Um, there are passages of scripture that I think we either ignore or we We kind of explain away, and we tend to emphasize.

[00:38:39] So, here's my challenge to everyone: let all of scripture influence your perspective of God.

[00:38:47] This is why Justin and I love confessionalism and reformed theology: it demands all of scripture be used, all of it be used to formulate our understanding of scripture.

[00:38:58] For instance, it feels like in the Calvinistic Reformed, Calvinistic Evangelical world, that there's a heavy emphasis on self-examination and assurance, meaning that you do these things to find your assurance.

[00:39:12] When you look at the entirety of scripture, there is warning passages for sure for people who are, you know, but some of them are completely taken out of context.

[00:39:22] Like when Paul says, examine yourself, that is way out of context of what he was saying.

[00:39:27] They were arguing that he got the gospel wrong, and he was like, well, then you should examine yourself because you got your gospel from me.

[00:39:34] So if you're, if I'm not saved, you're not saved.

[00:39:36] That's what he was saying.

[00:39:38] It's important to understand the context there.

[00:39:40] But how else do you hear things like, God has not given us a spirit of fear?

[00:39:44] Why would he say that?

[00:39:45] Because fear was coming in.

[00:39:48] Like, am I truly a believer?

[00:39:50] If I die, will I rise again?

[00:39:52] Right.

[00:39:52] And he's like, yes, you're going to rise again.

[00:39:55] He who began a good work in you will complete it.

[00:39:58] Look unto Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith, right?

[00:40:03] I love 1 Peter or 2 Peter says, where your inheritance is kept in heaven, untarnished, unfading, and cannot be removed.

[00:40:11] You have to allow all of those passages to inform your understanding of your relationship with God.

[00:40:17] This is what Reformed theology has been fighting for.

[00:40:20] If you go read the confessions, let me just challenge you.

[00:40:22] If you've never read the 1689 London Baptist Confession or the Westminster Confession or the Belgic Confession, you can't walk away with a full-orbed understanding of the entirety of the Christian life from regeneration to glorification and the purpose of

[00:40:41] the church in between.

[00:40:42] That's what confessionalism is for.

[00:40:44] It kind of demands that you look at scripture from every angle versus looking at it from one angle.

[00:40:50] Amen.

[00:40:51] If this is personal and it's dated in that it's going to, it's going to date this podcast.

[00:40:56] I don't even care.

[00:40:57] I'm preaching Romans right now, and we need to land this plane.

[00:41:00] But I am preaching Romans right now, and what you just said is so true.

[00:41:04] Like, studying and preaching Romans with the lenses of law and gospel, like the law and gospel distinction, and with covenant theology categories.

[00:41:17] Being grounded in the text, looking at how Paul uses the Old Testament, how he reasons and argues in this letter, the ways that he is teaching the saints in Rome, the doctrines of the faith with the law and

[00:41:30] gospel distinction and covenant theology in view, bro, it is flat out incredible.

[00:41:34] That's right.

[00:41:35] And it does, it takes all of the biblical witness into consideration.

[00:41:40] And you're actually making sense of the prophets and the Psalms and Moses and all the things that they wrote, how they all point to Christ and are fulfilled in and through Him.

[00:41:52] But you understand how from the beginning, you know, Adam's guilt, because of the covenant of works and his representation, his guilt is counted to us.

[00:42:00] And you understand how he represented us all.

[00:42:02] But just as Adam did, Christ represents everyone who's united to him.

[00:42:06] The law and the gospel, like no one will stand before God in his own righteousness, because in the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed that is given by God to sinners through faith, right?

[00:42:18] And so then, Paul crushes everybody with the law for chapters.

[00:42:22] You know, and it's like basically it's true.

[00:42:25] God rewards those who do good, but nobody does good.

[00:42:28] God rewards those who seek Him, but nobody does that either.

[00:42:30] And the law shuts everybody's mouth, and that's why the gospel has been revealed.

[00:42:35] Right.

[00:42:35] And it's anyway, like all of these categories, bro, they do a justice to the scriptures, they take all of the scripture into account, and they make much of Christ.

[00:42:46] And so I'm happy to sort of plant my flag here, just saying it's really good.

[00:42:50] And not being facetious, but come on in.

[00:42:53] The water is nice.

[00:42:54] And man, it's sweet.

[00:42:56] And I think you'll find that you're filled with gratitude and humility.

[00:42:59] I have one illustration and then I'll be done.

[00:43:01] It's not a long one.

[00:43:01] There's a movie called You're closing it down.

[00:43:03] So you get this and then you shut it down.

[00:43:05] Have you seen the movie yesterday?

[00:43:06] It's like in 2019.

[00:43:08] I have not.

[00:43:08] Okay, so this, I'm going to ruin it for anybody who has not seen the movie.

[00:43:11] You can go watch it.

[00:43:12] Spoiler alert, including me, apparently.

[00:43:13] So I'm being ruined just along with you.

[00:43:15] Yeah, but it's a great movie because within five minutes, I'm not spoiling it.

[00:43:19] You'll get it.

[00:43:19] But the guy gets hit.

[00:43:21] He's a musician.

[00:43:22] He gets hit while riding Martin's bike and he wakes up in the hospital.

[00:43:26] And when he wakes up, nobody begins to realize nobody knows who the Beatles are, like they don't exist.

[00:43:34] And so he keeps singing a song one day, just like, you know, oh, like, you know, yesterday.

[00:43:38] So he starts singing it.

[00:43:39] And everybody's like, that song is amazing.

[00:43:41] They're like, dude, that's the Beatles.

[00:43:42] They're like, who's that?

[00:43:43] And he begins to realize.

[00:43:44] So he becomes world famous because he's singing all the Beatles songs, right?

[00:43:48] right, That nobody knows.

[00:43:49] Right.

[00:43:49] Well, that's how Justin and I kind of feel like true.

[00:43:51] I feel like, hey, guys, this is like this.

[00:43:54] I know it's new to you, and you've never heard of it, but this is old.

[00:43:57] It's so old, it's new.

[00:43:59] So, please don't, if you're listening to us, like, this is amazing, this is not John and Justin.

[00:44:03] We're not brilliant.

[00:44:04] We're not brilliant.

[00:44:05] We're re-singing songs that were hits that unfortunately have been lost because of pietism, revivalism.

[00:44:12] And I'll tell you this: because Satan has done his job, he wants to suppress the truth.

[00:44:17] And so, our encouragement to you is: keep looking, keep reforming, Semper Reformanda, always reforming.

[00:44:22] Go back to the font, go back to ad fontes, go back to the fount, and realize there's more to the text than just Calvinism.

[00:44:29] Yeah, and keep taking the clutter off of the gospel.

[00:44:32] Yeah.

[00:44:32] And there's like not losing our first love has a lot to do with that.

[00:44:36] And not hiding your light under a bushel.

[00:44:38] It's like, man, let's keep the light is Christ, period.

[00:44:42] And so we're trying to keep him preeminent in everything that we do.

[00:44:45] And the Confessional Reformed Faith does a great job of that.

[00:44:48] And so we're happy to be where we are.

[00:44:50] Awesome.

[00:44:51] All right.

[00:44:51] We'll see you guys next week.

[00:44:52] Hey, everyone.

[00:44:53] Before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you.

[00:44:56] And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it.

[00:45:00] But we also need your support, and it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

[00:45:05] So, the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.