Resources:
Episode: Discipleship is not about you
Episode: Take up your cross?
1689 LBC, Chapters 13 and 18
Giveaway: "A Place for Weakness" by Michael Horton
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https://youtu.be/z_80o_t4aII
Semper Reformanda Transcripts
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to Semper Reformanda. We just carried right over from our podcast.
I have been doing a lot of thinking about the church lately, and this podcast really came out of a conversation I had with one of my church members, and then with you this morning, about how I think the church has created an atmosphere of celebrating the strong and confusing, hurting, and shunning the weak. I look at the New Testament, I look at Christ, and it seems to me that he was calling the weak to himself; he was caring for the weak. You hear Paul talking about those who are strong caring for the weak.
Justin Perdue: And at the same time, telling people that all of you who came to Christ are weak, and talking about his own weakness, and that God uses the weak things in the world.
Jon Moffitt: When Paul says he's the foremost sinner, I think he really means that.
Justin Perdue: I don't think it gets lip service or rhetorical flourish. I think it's legit.
Jon Moffitt: I think Paul's tone is very much controlled by his own sin and his dependence upon Christ.
Justin Perdue: He says it in so many places. We're referencing 1 Timothy 1:15-16, where Paul says that he is the foremost of sinners—and he says that in the present tense, not the past. I got a shoutout on social media not long ago for implying that we still are the foremost of sinners or something, and that we're new creations in Christ and we're saints now. Yes, we are, but we're also sinners. We're both. So stop. I understand that we're saints.
Jon Moffitt: It's like half of the Bible doesn't exist.
Justin Perdue: I understand that our identity is now in Christ, and that we are saints now, and we are new creations. Amen. Praise God for all of it. And at the same time, we are still sinners because we have not been fully sanctified yet, and we have not been resurrected yet. So stop it already. This is where some of the damage comes from. It's related to the conversation we're having because people want to emphasize the new creation part and the saints part that we act like we're not sinners anymore. And if you're still a sinner, then what's wrong with you?
Back to Paul. It's so obvious that he understands himself to be a sinner. 1 Timothy 1:15-16, we've already referenced that, but also 1 Corinthians 1, where he tells everyone that you weren't wise, you weren't strong, and all these kinds of things in the eyes of the world—you're actually weak, and the Lord uses the weak things of the world to shame the strong and to accomplish His purposes. So there's that. It's very clear that Paul always is reiterating this whole thing of us having no righteousness. Philippians 3 is in the Scripture for a reason; he's just blatantly clear about how we don't have righteousness. We are the circumcision who've worshiped the Lord Jesus Christ in the Spirit and put no confidence in the flesh because we don't have anything good to offer. Then, of course, there's 2 Corinthians 12, which I mentioned, where he talks about being so weak and having a thorn in the flesh the Lord would take away, and boasting in his weakness. I don't think that's lip service. And then finally, there's Romans 7, where he talks about his struggle, his battle. I think he is describing himself as a believer, and his writing is as true as words have ever been written about what it's like to be a Christian and battle against sin. And he discusses delighting in God's law in his inner man, but yet he's sinning all the time in a way that he doesn't understand, to the point that he cries out that he's a wretched man, and he's crying out for deliverance from this body of death, meaning, "I'm still a sinner. Please deliver me from this." He's thankful to God for Jesus and is thankful that there's no condemnation anymore.
I think he meant it. That's my answer. I think he was sincere in saying that he was a sinner, and even the foremost of one. I feel that way and I know you feel that way. I think we should model this as pastors for our people. To use Paul as an example from 1 Timothy 1, if God has been so patient, gracious, and merciful, that Christ has been patient with me, he'll be patient with you.
Jon Moffitt: That's right. I confessed to my own church on Sunday in my sermon about my own struggle, when COVID first happened, with fear and anxiety of our church being closed down because of finances and all kinds of things. You and I had this conversation. I can remember sitting on my bed, talking with one of my elders going, "There's $4,000 in the bank. People are losing jobs. We can't meet. What's going to happen?" I was, at that time, already working three jobs to try and provide for my family. There was this moment of being gripped. I was so thankful for Anthony and my elder, who just loved on me. He didn't rebuke me. He just cared for me, he cared for my soul. They reminded me that we're just going to trust in the Lord and whatever He does. Our hope is not gone; Christ is still on the throne, he's going to return, and we're going to live with him forever.
It's just those moments where often, someone who finds themself in fear and in doubt, they need a gentle hand to love them and to carry them. It just feels like often what comes in is harsh beating of the sheep, whipping them into shape. It's almost like, "How dare you question God? How dare you have doubts?" What do you mean, "how dare"? That's our frame. That's how we're built.
Justin Perdue: I don't assume that anybody wants to doubt. I don't assume that anybody wants to be afraid. I'm saying that I understand that in our flesh, we like our sin sometimes, and we're grieved about how we like it. Such is our experience. I'm not denying that reality. But I don't know if any person in my own congregation, or speaking for myself personally, when we battle fear and doubt would want to be in such a condition. We would do well to remember that.
And I think you're right. What people need is someone who will love them, someone who will listen to them, and—depending on what they're going through—will encourage them in the Lord Jesus Christ. Or perhaps if it's a season of doubt, you may just need to listen and love for a while and let people flounder around a little bit, and let them say some things that aren't true as they're wrestling through pain that is producing questions about God and His character.
Jon Moffitt: I had a phone call recently with someone. I had to tell them that very thing. They were so worried about what's going to happen with this relationship. I said, "Look, you just love them as Christ loves you, and you leave the results in the hands of the Lord. Just know that most likely, this isn't going to turn out how you want it to turn out, but we don't lose heart because Christ has been so kind and so patient and so merciful to us constantly." We just use that as our motivation.
I am so exhausted by the individualistic, self-progressive message that comes from the prosperity gospel, and also comes from a very pietistic, legalistic side of conservative Christianity. People come in and they hear what I'm saying. I can see it in their faces.
I was doing this to a dog yesterday: I was making this weird whistle noise and you know how they cock their head like, "What are you doing?" Congregants who do it don't realize they're doing it. They're cocking their head and squinting as you preach, because they're going, "It sounds so good, but yet it feels so foreign. I like what you're saying, but I have never felt or experienced the concept of resting."
Justin Perdue: And a lot of times, in their own minds, a bunch of objections are rising up.
Jon Moffitt: It is. Justin, can I say this here?
Justin Perdue: I don't know. You can and I'll comment on it.
Jon Moffitt: This could get us in trouble. Well, we're in the process of thinking about and planning to start a denomination. We're not going to put any exacts on there. But the reason for it is that we do feel the pressure and the struggle with so many churches that, in many ways, are off-kilter a little bit in their emphasis. Because people are coming out of there and they're so exhausted by Christianity. Christianity should be the thing that infuses you with joy. It should not be the thing that exhausts you. Like what Jesus says, "Come to me and find rest." That's not what they're finding.
Justin Perdue: It shouldn't be a yoke that exhausts and weighs people down.
A brief comment on the denomination thing. It sounds insane to hear two guys behind a mic saying that we're considering starting a denomination. Part of this is because we've had a number of pastor type guys reach out to us and just say they have no one with whom to associate. Jon and I have had that same burden, and have for a while, as guys who our churches hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession. We just don't really have people to associate with who have an appropriate understanding of law and gospel, ordinary means, pietism, and some of these things. Really it's just organically been developing for a while, and we're just starting to put the legwork in on it and think about what it would be to form an association of churches for the purpose of not only a shared confessional standard in heritage, but also for the purposes of pooling resources so that we can plant churches. That's the goal. Part of the driving motivator is that we would want to have other congregations, along with our churches, who understand these things and who understand Christianity this way from the Scripture and from the confessions, and then who are desiring to see more churches like this be planted. Because one of the things we hear from you guys all the time, from our listeners, is that you don't have anywhere to go to church, and you don't have a church where your pastors talk like we do, or you don't have a church to go where anything similar to what we're describing exists. We want to see more churches like this planted, not because Grace Reformed Church or Covenant Baptist Church are perfect. My goodness. I know CBC has plenty of warts and flaws, and I know that Christ has paid for every one of them.
Anyway, that's where all this is coming from. Because so many saints have been beaten to death in the church and the church is the last place where they would go to find rest or to feel safe, or certainly it would be the last place where they would ever talk about doubt or fear. "Doubt and fear? Check that at the door. This is for the strong and for the serious followers of Jesus. What you need is to be shamed into being that."
Jon Moffitt: Not only that, they've been feeding at a gas station and they have never been introduced to a grocery store. It's like the joys of Christ are handed to them. This is junk food every week.
There's so much that's wrong with the modern church today. In many ways, when we talk about Semper Reformanda, we are continuing the Reformation, which is why Justin and I wanted to start this very ministry. We got to a point where we said, "Hey, let's plant more churches, let's help more people encourage the local church, and let's see if we can start transforming the church from the inside out because this is necessary. People are suffering."
Justin Perdue: And rather than Theocast as a ministry being involved in church planting, it makes a lot more sense to have an association of churches that share a confession planting churches. So a lot of this instinct for us is actually birthed out of a historical understanding of how Christians have done this in the past. There's no biblical requirements for any of this, and so we have complete freedom to do it. We're hopeful. You can pray along with us that the Lord will bless this effort.
Jon Moffitt: Semper Reformanda, which is my heart and Justin's heart, to go back to this ministry, is that this is what these conversations are about. You guys are thinking the same thing we are, so how is it then that we go in and either start more churches, help churches transform, or support those who are doing well who are changing. Justin and I are a part of a Facebook group that has a large group of pastors, and I know several of those guys are trying to change the wind and the sails on big churches to be more about resting in Christ and confessional. It's a big task. It's exhausting to do that. So SR really is gathering together and having more nuanced conversations. How do we have helpful conversations around these topics? Identify the problem. But what I never want us to become is people who point out the problems, but never offer solutions. I just don't ever want to do that. That to me is not helpful. That's the discernment ministry.
Justin Perdue: And there are a million of those.
Jon Moffitt: Not interested in that. I want to point out the problem and say, "What can we do? We know what the solution is, which is Christ. How do we get that to be the focal point again?" It's encouraging that more and more of you guys who are part of SR are stepping up and wanting to be involved. We have more guys that are wanting to plant churches. We have another guy who's thinking about moving out here. I know Justin has some guys in the works. It's exciting. It's a grind. It's hard. It's exhausting. But I think it's worth the energy and time because the eternal ramifications of this are powerful. This is a 2 Peter 1 moment where we want to be effectively caring for each other and giving each other hope. There are people who are on that Facebook group, and you guys go in and ask questions, and you can see the despair and exhaustion in their words. To think that Theocast/true Christians could come in and provide someone a place of rest and comfort—and I don't mean the Facebook group or SR, but I mean local communities and local churches is invigorating. It helps me stay focused on saying what we do matters. Every week, when I get up and preach in Spring Hill and he preaches in Nashville, that matters.
We aren't just living the Christian life. We aren't just doing life. We're a part of the Kingdom of God that really is doing something that is not commercial-based; it's eternity-based.
Justin Perdue: It is. This is an invigorating conversation for me, too. Jon and I, just like anybody else, you can fall prey to the contemporary church and Christian reasoning where you're wigging out about numbers and metrics and all these kinds of things. It's just a good reminder that we get up and we herald Christ every week for the dear saints who show up and who are a part of our respective congregations. We trust the Lord with them, and then we trust the Lord as we seek to see more of these kinds of churches planted. It's not about building some big kingdom; it's about reaching people with this message of the sufficiency of Christ, because these two wretches behind this microphone understand he's our only hope. We assume that many other believers have run up against the wall of this kind of thinking that we've been describing today, where either it's steeped in prosperity theology where you are always seeking to validate yourself through certain charismatic gifts, or through a second baptism, and you've got to achieve all these things, and you got to have enough faith, and it's all about you ultimately. Or maybe it's coming from a different angle: it's more of that lordship, conservative Christianity, obedience angle, where you've got to prove yourself and you've got to validate yourself through your progressive obedience, your growth, affection, discipline, and everything else. The more rigor there is, the more legit you are.
We're speaking about it because many people have been run over by this stuff. There are many sheep who have been bludgeoned by it. It's encouraging to think of saints being brought out of that and being brought into something else that's much, much better.
Jon Moffitt: I'll close with this, Justin. We are seeing something happen. Someone put in a comment on Facebook this morning about where Theocast has been and where it's going—and I couldn't agree with them more—that we've seen multiple churches planted, we see more coming, we are seeing people encouraged by the books, we are seeing people encouraged by the Facebook group, by the podcast, obviously. I think very soon these SR groups are going to be a great way for people to be havens, or we'll see churches planted from it. Thanks to everyone who wants to be a part of this. I know it's crazy. I sound crazy. We sound crazy. We know we sound crazy. And to think that we're going to keep doing this stuff is... If the Lord doesn't want it to happen, it's not going to happen. But we know the message is real, it does transform people, and we want it out there. You want it out there too, so let's all get it out there. If Jesus comes back tomorrow, it's all worth it. If he comes back in a hundred years, it's still all worth it. Because, as Paul says, it doesn't matter who hears the gospel; it just needs to be proclaimed.
Justin Perdue: Last thought on Christ's coming back. This is the language of Peter: "God is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness." What's he talking about? He's talking about the return of Christ. Then he talks about how God desires that all men would reach repentance. We serve a God who desires that all men would reach repentance and He has ordained that many would. Every day that He waits to send His Son back is a demonstration of His patience and kindness that is meant to lead men to repentance. And so we work and we minister until Christ returns.
Jon Moffitt: Thank you for participating. If you are worried about being a leader and you're afraid you don't have it in you, first of all, you don't and neither do we. No one does. But if you at least want to have the conversation, let us know. We need more leaders. This is how it works: you just gotta one, be able to send out communications of where you are going to meet, and two, be able to host a conversation around questions. You don't have to teach. You don't have to study. You just gotta be able to facilitate. You gotta be able to ask questions, read the creed, the instructions, and you just gotta be willing to love on people who are listening to Theocast and they're like, "What is happening to my mind?" If you want to be there to love on those people, then you can be a leader. Go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members, fill up the application, and we'll set up an interview.
Love you guys. We'll see you next week.
