Jon and Justin talk about obedience and the uses of the law. What is the first use of the law? What is the third use? Are there ways these are often confused?
Regular Episode
MEMBERS Podcast Transcripts
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast. We love talking to you. It's so much fun. We talk to the world at broad and we want to change and help them find rest, and then it's family time; it's the after show.
We're here to talk to you guys as a team. A couple of things: Semper Reformanda is on its way. Keep praying. It's a lot of work, it's a lot of stress, but it's going to be so worth it. I'm going to go ahead and just let this out now because we got to start getting ready for it. We are going to start having local groups gathered together so that you can discuss this stuff and help other people make this transition. It's going to be for members only, so it's going to be a very close group. If you are interested in starting one of those locally or online...
Justin Perdue: Because we may do some of these virtually, too.
Jon Moffitt: Oh, we will be. Until we can get a local one.
Please reach out to us. Go to our contact page, and send us a form and just say, "Hey, I want to be an SR Leader. I want to start an SR Group." SR standing for Semper Reformanda. We will start taking those applications and start putting you through the training.
It's a lot of work. We're getting there. Hopefully by the time this podcast comes out, we'll be ready for you.
Justin Perdue: Just a thought on these groups, too. You guys who are part of the membership now, soon to be called Semper Reformanda, you guys have been affected by this theology as Jon and Jimmy and I have, and we all are still learning what it is to enjoy the freedom we have in Christ. We're still learning what it is to rest in Christ, but we are heralding that good news to one another. I know Jon, Jimmy, and I, we're trying to herald this good news in our congregations, in our local churches. But if we want to continue to see this Reformation just go forth and affect more and more people, then one of the ways that we can see this happen is by having groups of you guys, in effect, mobilized to love other people and share this good news with them. That's what these groups are intended for: not only for your encouragement, and for fellowship, and for you to have those "I'm really not crazy" moments, which is great, but then also for you to be able to band with like-minded brothers and sisters, to spread this word in the communities in which you live and even to do some of that virtually. We really are trying to build an army here, to use that analogy, and we're trying to advance this by the power of God's Spirit. It's the best news in the world.
Jon Moffitt: The podcast can only do so much. I have guys in my church who say, "I was two weeks into Theocast. I didn't know your church existed yet. I wish I had somebody I could sit down and process this information with." That's you guys. Some of you members, you guys get it. You don't have to know all the theological answers. You just got to help people unlearn things, let them process, ask questions, be there, love on them, be patient with them. We can't do that by email.
Justin Perdue: I see some of the stuff that's posted on the Facebook group by many of you guys. You guys are answering questions well, and you're pointing people to Christ, you're blowing up pietism and all these absurd things. That's what we want you to keep doing. We just want to give you more platforms to do that.
Jon Moffitt: What we want to really help you do is as you hear sermons, as you read your Bible, as you read theological books and you hear things that are, that feel out of place, having these categories is going to help you not stumble over things. We saw some stuff on Hebrews 6 that was in the Facebook group recently, and some questions about Hebrews 10. When I came across this phrase, "Pick up your cross and follow me," I immediately thought there are theological categories that this is absolutely smashing up against, and it's not working. This explanation that Christianity is giving to me, none of them are working because they are crossing exegetical lines, they're crossing theological lines, Jesus is contradicting himself. You don't just have to accept something because it sounds right. Jesus often spoke in riddles and in ways that we don't understand because we don't understand the culture. I almost want to give you that liberation of saying you need to use these historical categories and confessions, because that's what liberates you from this really bad theology that really enslaves people.
Justin Perdue: A lot of the theology that's done in the evangelical church, even by Calvinistic guys is biblicism, where dudes are pitting one passage of Scripture against another, they're ignoring, at times, the history of the faith, the history of interpretation, the rule of faith, etc.
Jon Moffitt: They say, "Well, I just believe what the Bible says."
Justin Perdue: Right. They're not confessional, and in that sense, not that they would ever phrase it this way, and not that they're meaning in a malicious sense to go rogue, but they are doing systematic theology and doing doctrine on their own, rather than doing it corporately with not only saints who were alive in the time they are, but with saints who have gone before us. That's one of the beauties of a confessional perspective is that we stand in line with saints who have gone before us for two thousand years now, and who have hammered out some of these issues of doctrine. The things that the church has hammered out, and the things that even the confessions outline, are very helpful to us—to echo Jon's point—in understanding and interpreting Scripture.
There are things that we discuss on the podcast a lot. We talked about three big categories today that are important for us to be able to understand and interpret the Bible well. One of those is the law-gospel distinction, one of those is theology of the cross, and then the other is more of reading things in context and understanding what Jesus is aiming to do given his audience. I think we can unpack each of those a little bit if we want.
One observation that I want to make first, because you were talking about the phrase "take up your cross", how it's often used, and how it was crashing up against categories. I agree with you. I'm thinking to myself, if the way that that passage is normally preached is right, then the Reformation got it wrong. We need to go back to Rome because they were the ones advocating for monastic life and monkery.
It sounds to me that if really, what Jesus is saying is you need to basically be able to practically, functionally, and relatively hate your family, and be willing to give away anything and suffer anything for my sake, then we all need to do that. We need to go live in a monastery, we need to discipline ourselves and practice self-flagellation, and do penance and confession all day, renounce our families, renounce our jobs, and renounce everything else if we're really going to take Jesus at his word—and that's clearly not what any evangelical thinks he means.
I just am confused as to what in the world's going on. Humbly, I'm confused as to what's going on in the minds of many folks who talk this way, as though this is what Jesus requires and they're asking people if they have met the standard. I'm thinking to myself, "Well, no, I certainly have not. Have you met the standard? Because I don't know that you have either."
Jon Moffitt: If you're new to Theocast, if you just joined the membership, my suggestion to you is that you make sure you listen to the law-gospel podcast, understand how to define the difference between the law and the gospel. This is going to clarify almost your entire Bible for you. Theology of the Cross Vs. Theology of Glory is another podcast that you need, or I would even say triumphalism was the episode that we did, that explained the difference between the theology of cross versus triumphalism. You need to listen to that. It's going to give you this solid foundation of understanding this theology. I'm going to warn you: as you do this, it's going to mess with your head because you're going to start hearing preaching and you're going to go, "That's law and you're preaching it to me as gospel. That is a theology of triumphalism. That's not a theology of the cross."
Justin Perdue: What it is a blending of law and gospel that functionally turns the gospel into a covenant of works.
Jon Moffitt: Right. Then you would probably want to go listen to the saint and sinner reality. I can't remember what episode we titled that. I'll have to go back and find it, but it'll be in the show notes.
The point of it is that we're trying to give you theological tools. As Paul says, don't let anybody rob you of your assurance. Colossians 2. Don't let anybody put this burden upon you that requires you to do something that now you have no assurance of. These are the kinds of conversations that are very important to us because you want to find your strength, you want to find your foundation in Christ. It gets so frustrating when I hear and read things that are careless, that are pietism-based. If you don't know what pietism is, you should go download our primer Faith Vs. Faithfulness. It's step one.
My other conversation is for those of you who've been listening for a while. I want to continue to remind you that this is a process for people. You are asking them to almost trust in an entirely different Jesus and an entirely different theological system, so this transition takes time. We get people who tell us all the time: "My spouse isn't here. My friends aren't here. They think I'm crazy." We want you to gather together as Theocast listeners, not so that you can bash these people, but so that you can create patience and really unload on each other, get it out on each other, so that when you go back to those who aren't here yet—they're stuck in pietism or legalism—that you can walk through passages like Luke and say, "Hey, listen, to take up your cross isn't the requirement of some kind of lordship salvation. This is Jesus trying to help you understand that you don't bring anything to a relationship. And when you do enter into the relationship, it's not progress, it's suffering. It's actually the opposite direction."
Justin Perdue: It's not strength, it's weakness. It's dependency.
Jon Moffitt: Absolutely. Anyways, that's all I have for today, unless you have anything else.
Justin Perdue: There are a number of things that are running through my mind, and I may just offer them considering that this is sort of what this podcast part is for. In my concern, in my own church, and even for those of you who have benefited enough from Theocast that you've decided to join the membership, and eventually we trust become a part of Semper Reformanda, my concern is that your assurance not be taken away from you, the peace that Christ has accomplished for you is not stolen away, and that you're not turned back in on yourself. Speaking very personally, I'm a very introspective guy who has battled assurance my whole life, wrestled with assurance, and questioned whether or not I'm legit. I still do question whether or not I'm legit enough, because that's just how I'm wired to think. I get texts and messages from a number of you that I've connected with over the last couple of years, saying, "Hey brother, do you ever have times where you feel this way or where you questioned this?" All the time, regularly.
When we say things like Jesus is enough, or Jesus is the ground of our assurance, what we mean is that you're never going to find that looking to your good works, your performance, or your obedience; you're going to find it only in Christ, what he has accomplished for you that is done. That, I think, in a nutshell is what Christ is calling people to in Luke 14: "You can only trust in me and you can't trust in anything in you." That's the message that we keep heralding and proclaiming here.
I trust the age old objection that you'll always get to this kind of theology. Two things: "You guys, in saying what you're saying, are going to produce lawlessness and apathy," which is just not true. Or you get the objection that's related: "Well, you just want to be able to do whatever you want and not have to worry about obedience and holiness, but yet still feel safe and secure in Christ." No, that's not the project of any of this.
I'm trying to use biblical language here that I think is accurate. We are a group of people who, like the tax collector in Luke 18, understand that we're not worthy, and understand that if it depends on us in any way, we're done. We are like those tax collectors and sinners in Luke 15, the early verses we read today, who gathered near Jesus and Jesus looks and says, "I've come for such as you." That's what this is. This is not an attempt to justify sinful behavior. This is not an attempt to say, "Yeah, guys, just go off and do whatever you want. Send the daylights out of the thing because Jesus and I—we're good." No, it's a message of hope, peace, comfort, and rest that is preached and heralded to weary people who are troubled by their own sin, and who are concerned that if it depends upon them in any way, they're never going to meet the standard. They're going to be told, "I never knew you." The message is, no, Christ has us and he has done enough. His message is not to be strong enough; his message is you will never be, but he is, so trust him.
I could keep rambling on about this, but that's the heart that's behind it.
Jon Moffitt: It's such an important conversation. Justin and I believe in this so much, we dedicate a lot of time to Theocast in writing and recording. Justin and I are working on helping other churches get planted. I'm helping Patrick. Justin has guys in his church that he's developing and getting ready to do this.
We don't want to build an empire. We don't want to be the next big whatever. We truly want to see people rest in Christ. If that's what you want, then these conversations we're having matter. You are going to hear people, for the rest of your life, tell you that you're an antinomian. I'm going to just stand on the shoulders of Martin Lloyd Jones, who says if your gospel doesn't get accused of being antinomian, then you didn't preach it right.
I agree. This is why Paul himself has to say, "Oh, by the way, I'm not telling you to run headlong into sin." Paul had to say this himself. If you're feeling this tension of God's grace feeling too good, it's right. It's far more than your brain can comprehend as a human. God's grace will never be comprehended in this life. It can't be; it's too much, it's too unreal. This is why Paul says to walk by the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh." You know what we do with that? Justin has another passage we have to unpack and we will. We turn that into law. Somehow walking by the Spirit becomes a law passage.
Justin Perdue: With Paul in Romans, because he says that in Galatians 5. In Romans 8 and other places, he makes quite clear the contrast between the Spirit and the flesh, and even in other places in Romans, the contrast between the Spirit and the law and everything else. Romans 7 says those words.
Jon Moffitt: That might just be a good episode coming.
Justin Perdue: Hebrews 6 is the passage where people struggle over apostasy. I know I've thought a reasonable amount about it. I know you have, Jon.
Jon Moffitt: That's all we got. We're running out of time. We're bumping up into our end. Thank you so much. Stay tuned: new website, new membership, new book coming out.
Justin Perdue: The next primer in our series is going to be a primer on the five points of Reformed theology. Those five points are covenant theology, Calvinism, confessionalism, law-gospel distinction, and ordinary means of grace. That primer is going to contain a section on each of those with an introduction and probably a brief conclusion. We're excited to write this and get it into people's hands. I'm excited for people in my church to have it.
Jon Moffitt: Basically, the primer is going to be about what Reformed theology is. Stay tuned for that.
We'll see you next week.
