Podcast Transcript

Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we are going to be talking about the nature of discipleship. We hear that once you become a disciple, you should have courage and boldness, be able to share your faith, and have a progression in holiness. Then there are those who don’t experience such changes.

Not only that, we read in the New Testament how there are secret disciples, disciples who waiver, go up and down, and they struggle with their own sin. There’s a lot the Bible has to say about discipleship and we don’t think it’s a clean, straight line to the top. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Today we’re going to talk about discipleship specifically, as the title says, Strong Disciples Only. That’s how we hear the Bible described. For those of you who are new in Christ.—God has called you to Himself, regenerated, at that moment, you have been infused by the Spirit, and also because of the Spirit not living within you, you now have the spirit of boldness and strength. Evangelism is not what you’re afraid of. You’re willing and ready to die for Christ and to take on any kind of persecution. That’s the way in which the New Testament describes true discipleship.

Justin Purdue: Yeah, you’re strong, you’re not weak, you’re never afraid, and you never doubt or wrestle or struggle.

Jon Moffitt: We can take verses like when Jesus says in Luke 14:26: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” This is an absolute radical life transformation that you have to be willing to forsake everything in order to become a part of Jesus.

I said this one Sunday, and I’ll say it here: if that’s your interpretation, I could also make the interpretation that Jesus is basically saying to hate everybody. “I don’t like anybody anyways. That just works out for me. I like that kind of discipleship. Just me and Jesus. I hate everybody else.” You can make that conclusion, but that’s not what he says. Also in Luke 14:33, when it says, “So therefore, anyone of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.”

We talked about this particular passage in the past, which is “take up your cross and follow me”, which we’ll link to in the notes as well. The problem we’re about to face here is we’re going to look at all of Scripture and we’re going to look at everything the Bible has to say about discipleship, and we’re going to then look at the examples given to us, and then compare it to what’s being told of us today, which is all disciples everywhere, once they come to Christ, should be willing and ready and have no problems with fear. Unfortunately, that’s just not what we’re about to see.

Justin Purdue: I think the presentation that so many people receive and the contexts where many people have either found themselves for a season, or maybe still find themselves today, you get the idea that if you are a disciple of Jesus Christ, that you’re like a Green Beret. You’re a special ops soldier and you need to come and be a part of this force of people. You need to be unafraid, you need to not waffle, doubt, struggle, wrestle, or anything like that—and that’s because only the strong survive. That’s the message that many people are given: you must persevere—which is a true thing to say.

Jon Moffitt: I would say everything you said it’s true as well. We do not have reasons to be afraid. If Christ is our Savior and God is our King, we don’t have reasons to be afraid. But that doesn’t mean people don’t struggle with fear.

Justin Purdue: In our experience, we struggle with fear and doubt, and that is because we are still fallen. We are saints and sinners at the same time. Because of that reality, our experience and how we feel—from hour-to-hour, day-to-day, week-to-week—will ebb and flow. This presentation that one must always be just ready to charge the wall, and that you are never fearful, that you don’t doubt, that you don’t struggle, that you’re not weak, is not something that squares with the New Testament presentation of disciples. And that’s the kind of stuff we’re going to look at today.

Because we are having this from a pastoral perspective, my hope is that it encourages the weary saints out there who know themselves to be afraid at points of various things and also know themselves to struggle with doubt and wrestlings of various kinds.

Jon Moffitt: I want to begin by reading our confession. I think it will be helpful here in understanding that the position that we are presenting is a very old one. It’s been concluded, argued over, and written down to be confirmed as we confess as believers. As it relates to the moment you come to Christ, sanctification does begin the process of us being transformed not only in our soul, but also in our mind, in how we engage God and how we think about Him. It isn’t always an absolute moral transformation. My kids aren’t morally struggling at the moment, but there is a mind transformation.

I think it’s very helpful how the writers of the confession write this. This is chapter 13 on Sanctification. Point two says, “This sanctification extends throughout the whole person, though it is never completed in this life. Some corruption remains in every part. From this arises continual and irreconcilable war, with the desires of the flesh against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh.” And they reference some verses here that Justin and I mention quite often, which is Galatians 5:17, 1 Peter 2:11. Then in point three, it says this: “In this war, the remaining corruption may greatly prevail for a time. Yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part overcomes.” This is why we can take great comfort in the doctrine for perseverance or preservation of the saints. That is what they’re teaching there. But they can acknowledge and do acknowledge that at times, the remaining sin that Christians still have, the saint-sinner reality—we live in a dualistic understanding where we are saved by Christ, but yet we struggle with the flesh; this is Galatians 5:17—that discipleship isn’t a straight line. There isn’t this immediate infusion of power to the point where all struggle is gone.

Justin Purdue: I was going to add a little piece from the confession from a different chapter that I think speaks to some of these things too. Even in chapter 18 on Assurance of Grace and Salvation of the 1689 London Baptist Confession, in paragraph three, this language is helpful too that we understand that assurance is ours in Christ Jesus, but we don’t always feel it. They say, “This infallible assurance is not such an essential part of faith that it is always fully experienced alongside faith, and true believers may wait a long time and struggle with many difficulties before obtaining it.” And then they go on and say other things. I think we need to understand that our experience will not always be one of rock solid confidence in Christ and in our standing in him that would then produce this kind of fearlessness and would drive away all doubt.

Many times the presentation—just to reiterate and be crystal clear—is that if you are legitimately in Christ and you are a true disciple, then there are certain things that should characterize you, and there are certain things that should not. And if those things are characterizing your life, ala this conversation—fearfulness, doubt—then you should be concerned. Our posture as pastors is seeing how that’s piling it on the weary saint in a way that Christ doesn’t, in a way that the gospel writers don’t, and in a way that the apostles don’t.

Take us away, brother. Give us example number one.

Jon Moffitt: The first example we’re going to explain to you is that there aren’t followers of Jesus and then disciples, like there are those who are in the Navy and then there are Navy seals. It’s not two levels. Right. There are those who are in Christ and those who are not.

Justin Purdue: To be in Christ is to be a disciple.

Jon Moffitt: So to be in Christ is to be a disciple. To be a disciple, there are clear requirements, there are clear instructions, there are laws for us to obey—this is the new use of the law, or the third use of the law that we speak about. But we also know that there’s grace, mercy, and repentance. It’s a very complicated situation that the clearest focal point we always have is Jesus.

Today, we’re gonna talk about some of the complications that you may find yourself in, and that the text leads us to and gives us examples of. A great example for me is I am finishing up John. Every time I get to a new section of John, I am always dumbfounded by what I don’t know, and just how amazing the gospel writers present the glory of Christ and the frailty of man.

So Jesus is about to be buried, and John writes the most unique account of the burial of Jesus. He mentions things and says things that all the writers do not say. His account is quite unique. This helped me when trying to understand what it is that John wrote. John writes this probably about 30 years after the burial of Jesus. John has had time to contemplate, to think, to research, to know what’s going on. He isn’t writing wondering what’s happening next. First, it’s not fiction. He’s not just coming up with any of this in his head. Two, he’s not videotaping it and wondering what the next section will be like it’s a documentary. He knows what’s about to happen because he experienced it. So what you have here at the high point of history, which is Christ’s death, is you have a changing of the garden in some ways, which is really interesting in how John describes it.

So, Jesus is now dead. The disciples in chapter 20 are being described as hiding out in a room out of fear of the Jews. I love the detail John puts there: the door is locked. As if that’s going to keep the Jews out.

Justin Purdue: They are all afraid, they’re disheartened, they’re discouraged, they’re despondent.

Jon Moffitt: They are. John isn’t writing as a form of criticism because he is describing his own self, as a doubter, as one who’s a disciple of Jesus who is afraid.

Let’s just make a real quick observation. You have Peter saying, “Lord, I’ll, I’ll die for you. And there’s nothing that’s going to separate you from me.” Of course, we know of Peter’s failure. And then at the point of the cross, you have these disciples who are now running and hiding, and then you have these two disciples that John mentions. They’re quite fascinating.

He describes Joseph of Arimathea and he describes him in a really interesting way. Here in John 19:38, this is what he says, “After these things Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus…” Stop. Full stop. He clearly describes him as a follower of Christ. There’s not a question, there’s not an apostate, or a false professor. That’s not what he says. He says, “Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews…” That’s how John describes him. Mark describes him as one who took courage because he had to go stand before Pilate to ask for the body of Jesus. The last person that stood before Pilate, in reference to Jesus, died. I understand why this is a courageous act. But listen to who John couples with Joseph; he couples Nicodemus. Verse 39 says, “Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes.”

What is interesting about the two men? Jesus dies on the cross, all the disciples abandon him. The two disciples are secret disciples—one comes at night because he’s afraid, the other one is being described as a secret disciple.

Justin Purdue: And that coming at night, for those who don’t know, is in John 3. That account of Nicodemus coming to Jesus.

Jon Moffitt: Nick at night in John 3. If you go back to chapter 12, you can see that John is describing both of these disciples. Again, remember, John’s writing 30 years after. This isn’t unfolding as time. He says this: “Nevertheless, many even of the authorities,” both Joseph and Nicodemus are part of the synagogue, so they both would be well known there, “many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

You need to take notice of a couple of facts here: one, John doesn’t discredit their belief. Two, John does not say that there are false converts or false disciples. He actually gives both Nicodemus and Joseph the title of “disciple”—not one of the 12. Of course, there were multiple disciples, but the point of it is that John very pointedly and purposely points out the fickleness of discipleship as it relates to fear, anxiety, pain, and following Christ. It’s not simple. It’s not a straight line like those who have Christ are radically going to be willing to die for him at any cost.

Justin Purdue: You already mentioned Peter, but I’m going to pick up on Peter just for a minute. Many are familiar with the account of Peter denying Jesus in the gospels. What occurred there, for those who are not as familiar, is that Jesus had predicted his death and all these kinds of things many times. Peter, at points, even rebuked Jesus for talking about things like that. That’s another conversation. But then certainly, he had pledged his undying allegiance to Christ and his fearless devotion to him, that even if everybody else falls away, he won’t do it. “I’m not going to fall away. I will always be with you. I will always follow you.” Peter is told by Christ that—this is on the last night of Jesus’s life on earth—that he would in fact deny Jesus. Again, he rebuts that, saying, “No, I won’t.” And of course he does. He denies Christ out of fear when he goes to the courtyard. He follows Jesus as he’s arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, he’s taken before the council, he’s in the courtyard at the high priest’s house, and all those things. Three different times he’s confronted: “You were with him. You were with Christ. You were with him, weren’t you?” And he says, “No, I wasn’t. I don’t even know him.” That’s his initial denial.

But then, something else that people might not be as familiar with occurs years later in Antioch. Paul writes about this episode in Galatians 2, and Paul confronted Peter in Antioch because Peter was operating out of fear of Jewish believers. So we read in Galatians 2:11 and following how in Antioch, Peter and Paul were there. And when Peter is interacting with Gentile Christians and there are no believers from Jerusalem, there are no Jewish Christians present, Peter just kicks it with Gentiles and is acting as they do, not worried about certain aspects of the law and all these kinds of things and is operating in freedom, and things are going well. But then there are some Jewish believers who show up—certain men who came from James, who we know was in Jerusalem. Peter completely changes his behavior with respect to how he’s carrying himself and things that he’s doing, not doing, eating, not eating, and things like this. Paul talks about having to confront him because he was operating out of fear of the Jews and fear of the circumcision party, and was leading people astray through his hypocrisy. So here you have an apostle in Peter who had already had this experience earlier, where he had denied the Lord Jesus Christ and then had been restored, and was now preaching, writing, and all these kinds of things in the early church. But then, he is afraid of men. He’s afraid of other people and what they would think of him. And so he changes how he operates, how he talks, what he eats, and things of that nature so that he would be thought of well by other people. He was dominated, in that sense, by fear of man. That’s another good example of how we can operate in fear—not just fear of authority or fear that we might lose something materially or that we might even lose our lives, but also we operate out of fear based on what other people will think of us. Such is our frailty.

Jon Moffitt: In John 12, the rebuke that he gives to those leaders there where Peter himself falls under.

Justin Purdue: One other example. This one is not so much fear as it is doubt, and I think those things are often related in our experience. Many are familiar with one of the 12 named Thomas. He is even referred to as Doubting Thomas, which is kind of an unfair title that we give to him. I just want to talk a little bit about his life. It’s very interesting that this man who is known for doubting—in John chapter 11, in the whole episode of Lazarus and his resurrection, when Jesus makes the decision that they will go to Jerusalem effectively, just outside of it to Bethany, because of Lazarus in his death, Jesus tells the disciples in John 11:14 that Lazarus has died. “And for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” And then Thomas says in verse 16 of John 11, he says to the other disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.” He understands that their lives are going to be in jeopardy and that harm could come to them—and he’s willing to go. I think this is instructive for us that this one man who was so courageous in one moment, even if he’s saying it half out of sarcasm, later after Jesus dies is the one who’s says “I will never believe that he rose from the dead unless I see him for myself and I can touch him.” And of course, we know the episode that Jesus appears to him and we don’t see harshness at all. But he knows this man’s frame. He more or less looks at him and he says “Here, come and touch and see.”

Jon Moffitt: I can hear Thomas in the background saying, “Fool me once—I gave up everything to follow this guy. Fool me twice—that’s not going to happen.”

Justin Purdue: In John 20:25, Thomas literally says, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” Then in the very next verse, Jesus appears to them and he says, and he says, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it on my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” And then Thomas replies, “My Lord and my God!” His faith is stirred and strengthened because Jesus condescends to his weakness.

Jon Moffitt: He is gentle and lowly in spirit.

Justin Purdue: Such is our frame and such is our condition. Some moments, we’re like, “Yes, I believe! I would run through a wall for Christ. I believe and I just know that I know that I know that this was true.” And then the very next day or the next week we’re questioning everything, our faith feels very weak, and I think saints throughout history have had that very same experience.

Jon Moffitt: How many times do you and I talk about this?

Justin Purdue: On the regular.

Jon Moffitt: This is going to be kind of a weird section. I’ll say this and I’ll throw it back over to you. Sometimes, we listen to the episodes just to make sure everything is good to go and clean.

Justin Purdue: Clean as in edit. It’s not like we say bad things.

Jon Moffitt: Yeah. Just to make sure all the edits are correct. Anyways, we sound bigger and more professional—this is my opinion of myself. I listened to us and I’m like, “Wow. We sound great. I know who I am. I know how small I am. I know how frail I am.” I just don’t ever want listeners to hear us, and I’ll speak for you too because I know you agree, and just assume that because we do this podcast and we’re pastors that we are these strong disciples. In many ways, I wanted to do this podcast because I’m over here going, “Well, I don’t feel like a strong disciple. I feel very weak. I struggle with anxiety and fear often because of my frailty, and what’s required of me as a human being is overwhelming at times.”

Justin Purdue: I can resonate with that. Even today, I’ve been feeling very intensely the battle against the flesh in various ways, to where Paul’s words in Romans 7, “Wretched man that I am. Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Those words resonate. No truer words have ever been written from my perspective. Even as we sit down to record this podcast, I’m mindful of ways that I doubt and wrestle or ways that I’m struggling against sinful thoughts in my own mind. I do not feel as devoted to Jesus as I want to be. I do not feel and understand myself to be trusting him as much as I want to trust him. I need conversations like this with you, my brother in Christ, to stir me and to encourage me.

I’ve said this before, and my mentor in the faith used to talk this way too: God, I think in one sense, has made me a pastor in his providence because He knew that I probably wasn’t strong enough to not be one; meaning that my job requires me to study God’s word in order to teach it and preach it. My job requires me to point others to Christ, and as I do that, my own faith is strengthened. I find myself so often preaching and saying things to other people, and I’m having that weird out-of-body experience that you almost have regularly as a preacher, where you’re hearing yourself say stuff, and your own mind, you’re able to kind of process that. Sometimes you’re struck by it and you say, “I think I really do believe that.” Sometimes you’re struck because you’re struggling to believe and you’re asking God to give you faith. Such is my experience, and so I would never want the listener to hear me say something, and I know that you feel the same because you just said so, and think that we just never doubt, or we’re never afraid—because we are. We, too, are frail; just like people listening to us talk are. We all need the grace of God, and we all need Him to give us faith, and to preserve us, or we have no hope that He’s utterly faithful.

If we were going to ask the question of what is required to be a disciple of Christ, the biblical answer to that is faith. Of course, faith is not of ourselves; it’s a gift of God. But if you are trusting Christ to be your righteousness and the satisfaction for your sins, then you are His disciple. But here’s the thing: even faith can waiver. That’s the challenge. My faith in Christ is what’s going to end up producing fruit of us being born again by the Spirit of God, we trust Christ, and then fruit is born from that in the form of repentance or in the form of good works, obedience, and the like. But even faith will vacillate and waiver at points. That’s how fundamental this battle is. That’s why we say that the fundamental battle of the Christian life is not even the fight against sin; the fundamental battle of the Christian life is the fight for faith to actually believe what the Lord has said; in particular, to believe what the Lord has said to us in His Son—that good word of our acceptance, our forgiveness, our absolution, and our righteousness that is through Christ, by faith, apart from works. We have to battle for faith so often because our life and our experiences preach a different message than the one that God speaks to us.

That’s the experience of disciples everywhere, and it’s been the disciples’ experience of all time. I’m thinking about even the words of the apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 12, where he talks about weakness, how he was weak, and how even the Lord told him that through Paul’s weakness, the Lord’s strength was magnified and made evident. Paul says, “I’m going to boast and rejoice in my weakness because it’s there that the Lord shows Himself to be strong, and He shows His grace to be sufficient.” I think we all need to be reminded of that in this conversation when we are made to feel sometimes like only the strong survive. Actually, we’re all weak. The thing that we need to understand is that we are weak and that we need to cast ourselves completely upon the strength that is Christ alone for us.

Jon Moffitt: I think a lot of the frailty, even fear and anxiety, which we’re going to get into in a minute is caused by a confusion of what discipleship is in Christ. People are so exhausted by trying to climb into the boat of assurance and holding onto the rail that they may not be tossed out. They’re so exhausted by that, and they have the fear that they’re not able to enjoy the rest that truly is found in Christ. I think that’s caused by a lot of confusion in not only modern day teaching, but historical teaching. I can even think of the book, which we’ll probably reference more in Semper Reformanda, but the Cost of Discipleship is really what we’re talking about here. Prosperity gospel, believe it, or not creates a lot of fear and anxiety in people because of these certain reasons: they don’t see success, they don’t see God blessing them, they see failure, and they realize they haven’t done enough as a disciple for God to approve their lives, and then therefore bless and take care of them. The cost of discipleship they see is no blessings from God equals either they are not a disciple, or they’re not good disciples, and that they’re not willing to do some of the things that are required. Some of this is having this outgoing personality in worship, being outgoing in public. You see this pressing in. I’ve been in contexts even in churches where if your hands aren’t raised and you’re not emotionally charged by what’s going on, then how can you truly describe yourself as a dedicated disciple? Because if you truly were, you would be invested in what’s going on in the worship service. I look at that and I go, “I’m pretty sure that’s not what is required of a disciple to be invested emotionally into this event that you have created.” a lot of people I have met who are solemn quiet personalities, they feel less than because they’re not flamboyantly involved in a worship experience. I have other people who are very strong about their discipleship as it relates to Christ because they are so involved in this worship experience.

Justin Purdue: I think another way that this kind of thing can manifest itself is maybe more in the lordship salvation camp, and just simply for our purposes today, where you see a confusion as to what faith even is. What ends up happening is not only are the law and the gospel collapsed and blended together, but then you have effectively, obedience, repentance, sincerity of devotion, and all these kinds of things woven into the definition of what faith is. If one is going to have saving faith, then one also has all of these other things that are apart from faith. What that ends up producing for us is a standard that frankly, I fear no one can really meet. It’s also a standard that no one can define either. But it’s where levels of obedience and levels of dedication are required of us.

I would even say that progression in the battle against sin, in terms of getting increasing amounts of victory—like there needs to be this ongoing transformation and we do agree and uphold that our lives will be transformed—we are just trying to say, as we always do, that that transformation is going to ebb and flow some. It’s going to go up and down, and it’s not going to be clean and linear all the time. You may look at your life on any given day and have legitimate reasons to say, “I don’t know that this battle, this fight against my flesh, is going as well today as it did yesterday or a year ago because I find myself really struggling right now.” I think that is the common experience of many people. When they are in a context where they’re told that you need to be getting better all the time, then there’s a tremendous cause for concern, worry, doubt, and fear as to whether they’re really in Christ.

I know in my own life, Jon, if one of the reasons that I can be discouraged in the faith—and I’m saying this as a host of Theocast and as a pastor, and I know this isn’t true—but it’s like my mind, my conscience, and things that I heard for years still wage war against me. I will think man fighting this sin is really hard right now, or my affections are not where they were six months ago or whatever it may be. And then you start questioning things, you start condemning yourself. Even if you don’t question whether or not you’re in Christ, joy and peace and rest are taken away because you’re constantly unsettled about your spiritual condition.

Jon Moffitt: I think the cost of discipleship, and even both of what we described, which is making Jesus Lord of your life, you have unrealistic expectations. One, we can’t make Jesus Lord of our life because he is, and if the evidence of my Christian life is one, Jesus blessing me, or two, me sacrificing everything to make Jesus Lord of my life, then no one is truly a disciple because no one’s been able to truly do that. We have to make the levels acceptable, and there is no acceptable level that the Bible puts it at other than faith. Even when it says faith without works is dead, we don’t even know what level of works James is speaking of other than, “Look, that’s what you need to be pursuing.”

Justin Purdue: I know that we’ve said this before, but for the newer listener: faith without works is dead from James 2—all we understand James to be saying is that faith will result in obedience and doing good works. We’re not told how much. We’re not told to measure it. That’s all it is. It’s not as though you need to weave works into the groundwork of your justification and your salvation. It is just simply that good works are a necessary consequence of faith—and God will produce them in you. That’s all James is writing to.

Jon Moffitt: We’re going to move into a second podcast that we do. I’m going to give a couple of lead-ins.

First of all, we’re going to speak a little bit more to the two sides that we showed, which is the prosperity gospel/ lordship salvation. I do want to talk about how the church has had an influence here. The church should be a place of rest and comfort. Shepherds should be feeding the sheep, not beating them; I think often, sheep come in and are beaten down so much that they become afraid of the shepherd, they become afraid of the church. We’re going to talk about that for a little bit and how we, as Reformers can help transform our churches back to a biblical Reformed perspective of what it is that we are supposed to be doing, and to draw in, not lazy Christians, not people who are nominal, but I think people who are absolutely exhausted and beat down. How do we draw them back into our church that we might build them up into Christ, and into the maturity of Christ, that they may truly know what it means to have strength that comes from something other than their own dedication to God? Because Justin and I will both agree our strength is not found in our discipline and dedication because we’re pretty bad at it.

Justin Purdue: God help us if it needs to come from us.

Jon Moffitt: We’re going to talk about the Reformed view of sanctification. We do a second podcast which is kind of our family behind-the-scenes podcast where it’s a little more unfiltered. If you’d like to support what we’re doing here at Theocast and join that podcast, be able to join a local community in your area to discuss it, that’s what Semper Reformanda is. We are still in the process of developing those teams in groups and we have online and local groups. If you want to be a part of any of that, you can go to theocast.org/sr, or just go to our website. You’ll find it there.

Justin Purdue: If you are one of those people who, not only if you’re weary, but if you do know that you’re weak, you struggle, you wrestle, you doubt, and you’re aggrieved at the fact that you don’t obey Christ more than you do, then come join the rest of us who are just like you who are looking to Christ for everything because we understand him to be our only hope. Come and be a part of this and be encouraged by other brothers and sisters who get this too.

Jon Moffitt: We have a Facebook group. Real conversations happen there as well.

All right. We’ll see you guys next week.