# Theocast — Complete Content

> Generated September 22, 2026. Append `?format=md` to any article/episode URL for individual markdown.

# Learning Paths

Study Reformed theology at your own pace, with teaching, conversations, and questions for reflection.

## [An Introduction to Reformed Theology](https://theocast.org/learn/reformed-theology)
The foundations of Reformed theology: gospel rest, law and gospel, assurance, sanctification, Scripture, and the church.
9 lessons

## [Assurance of Salvation](https://theocast.org/learn/assurance)
Confidence in Christ through changing feelings, ongoing struggles, and questions about obedience and salvation.
7 lessons

## [Lordship Salvation](https://theocast.org/learn/lordship-salvation)
The relationship between saving faith, repentance, obedience, and assurance of salvation.
6 lessons

## [Covenant Theology](https://theocast.org/learn/covenant-theology)
Redemption, works, and grace: how God’s covenants reveal his saving purpose and find their fulfillment in Christ.
6 lessons

## [Calvinism](https://theocast.org/learn/calvinism)
God’s sovereign grace in salvation: election, atonement, the Spirit’s call, and the preservation of believers.
7 lessons

## [The Spiritual Realm](https://theocast.org/learn/spiritual-realm)
Christ’s victory over evil and the believer’s confidence in the face of accusation, temptation, and spiritual opposition.
7 lessons

## An Introduction to Reformed Theology

> Study at your own pace.

The foundations of Reformed theology: gospel rest, law and gospel, assurance, sanctification, Scripture, and the church.

9 lessons · 31 selected resources. Follow them in order or begin where your questions are most urgent. Study these truths alongside life in your local church.

*Source: https://theocast.org/learn/reformed-theology*
*Last modified: 2026-09-15*

Books are optional further reading from Theocast’s recommended list. No purchase is needed to complete a lesson.

### 01. Begin with the Map

**Why this lesson:** Understand how the main teachings of Reformed theology fit together.

**What holds Reformed theology together?**

Reformed theology holds together the Bible’s teaching on God’s covenants, salvation by grace, the church’s confession, the means of grace, and the distinction between law and gospel. Each helps us understand the others. God saves a people through Christ, gives them promises to trust, and gathers them into churches where their faith is nourished. Learning these connections gives us a foundation for studying particular doctrines without losing sight of the whole.

Based on [What Is Reformed Theology?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-is-reformed-theology).

- **Confession:** A shared written summary of what a church believes Scripture teaches.
- **Covenant Theology:** An approach to reading Scripture through God's covenants and the unfolding promise of redemption in Christ.

- **Lesson source: [What Is Reformed Theology?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-is-reformed-theology)** · Episode
  A five-part orientation to covenant theology, Calvinism, confessionalism, the ordinary means of grace, and law and gospel.
- **Further study: [The Difference Between Reformed Theology and Calvinism](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-difference-between-reformed-theology-and-calvinism)** · Episode
  A distinction between the broader historic Reformed faith and a modern evangelical movement centered mainly on Calvinism.
- **Further study: [Core Christianity](https://amzn.to/2u4P0JC)** · Book
  Michael Horton. Optional reading: continue the introduction with a book from our Theology list.

**For Reflection**
1. Which of these five themes is least familiar to you?
2. How might a shared confession help a church read and teach Scripture together?

### 02. Rest in Christ

**Why this lesson:** Start with Christ's sufficiency, not a program for spiritual improvement.

**What makes it possible to rest in Christ?**

Christ has paid for our sins and supplied the righteousness we need before God. His finished work gives weary sinners a place to rest. We receive him by faith, with nothing to add to the obedience and sacrifice that secure our acceptance. From that security, we can repent honestly, love our neighbors, and attend to our responsibilities. We come to Christ because we need his mercy, and his welcome does not depend on the strength of our performance.

Based on [Resting in Jesus Christ](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/resting-in-jesus-christ).

- **Righteousness:** The right standing before God that believers receive through Christ, rather than earning by their own record.
- **Faith:** Receiving and resting on Christ and his promise.

- **Lesson source: [Resting in Jesus Christ](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/resting-in-jesus-christ)** · Episode
  A pastoral conversation about Christ's sufficiency, the judgment seat, and why sinners may come to Jesus without fear of condemnation.
- **Further study: [Is the Gospel Really That Simple?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-the-gospel-really-that-simple)** · Episode
  Why making the gospel needlessly complicated can rob Christians of the peace, hope, and assurance it is meant to bring.
- **Further study: [Is the Gospel Really That Simple?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/is-the-gospel-really-that-simple)** · Article
  A written summary of the gospel and Christ’s sufficiency.

**For Reflection**
1. Where do you tend to treat God's welcome as something you must earn?
2. How does Christ's sufficiency change the way you approach repentance?

### 03. Distinguish Law and Gospel

**Why this lesson:** Hear God's commands and God's promise without blending them together.

**How do God's commands differ from his promise?**

The law tells us what God requires. The gospel announces what Christ has done to save sinners. A command cannot give the comfort of a promise fulfilled by Christ. The law remains good: it exposes sin and directs our conduct. But it cannot supply the righteousness we lack or remove the guilt it reveals. Distinguishing law and gospel helps us hear both the seriousness of sin and the completeness of Christ’s work.

Based on [An Introduction to the Law and Gospel Distinction](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/an-introduction-to-the-law-and-gospel-distinction).

- **Law:** God's commands, which reveal his righteous requirements and expose our sin.
- **Gospel:** The good news of salvation through Christ's finished work.

- **Lesson source: [An Introduction to the Law and Gospel Distinction](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/an-introduction-to-the-law-and-gospel-distinction)** · Episode
  A focused introduction to why mixing God's law with the gospel obscures Christ's sufficiency and unsettles the conscience.
- **Further study: [Is the Gospel Really That Simple?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/is-the-gospel-really-that-simple)** · Article
  A careful separation of the gospel itself from our faith, repentance, obedience, and surrender in response to it.
- **Further study: [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus)** · Book
  Jon Moffitt. Optional reading: study the chapter on law and gospel as part of reading Scripture with Christ at the center.
- **Further study: [Law and Gospel: A Theology for Sinners (and Saints)](https://amzn.to/2f91Akg)** · Book
  William McDavid, Ethan Richardson & David Zahl. Optional reading: begin with a short introduction from Mockingbird.
- **Further study: [Law-Gospel Preaching: Is It Dangerous?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/law-gospel-preaching-is-it-dangerous)** · Article
  Law, gospel, and assurance in confessional Baptist preaching.
- **Further study: [Law and Gospel](https://amzn.to/2u57Tfp)** · Book
  C.F.W. Walther. Optional reading: compare a Lutheran treatment from our Law & Gospel list with the teaching here.

**For Reflection**
1. When you encounter a command in Scripture, what are you expecting it to do?
2. How would you explain the difference between a command to obey and a promise to receive?

### 04. Locate Your Assurance

**Why this lesson:** Look outside yourself to Christ when feelings and performance fluctuate.

**Where should a troubled conscience look for assurance?**

Assurance is confidence that Christ’s saving promise is for us. That confidence rests on his finished work and the testimony of the Spirit. Feelings change, and our obedience remains imperfect, but Christ’s sufficiency does not change with them. Faith receives the Savior and the comfort of his promise. When your conscience troubles you, begin with what Christ has done and what he promises to everyone who comes to him.

Based on [Recovering a Supernatural Assurance](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/recovering-a-supernatural-assurance).

- **Assurance:** Confidence in Christ's saving promise and our acceptance in him.
- **Conscience:** Our awareness of responsibility before God, which can accuse us and needs the comfort of the gospel.

- **Lesson source: [Recovering a Supernatural Assurance](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/recovering-a-supernatural-assurance)** · Episode
  Jon Moffitt describes doubt as spiritual warfare and directs anxious Christians away from their sincerity and obedience to Christ's finished work.
- **Further study: [Recovering a Supernatural Assurance](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/recovering-a-supernatural-assurance)** · Article
  A direct treatment of final salvation and peace with God that points the listener to Christ and his sufficiency.
- **Further study: [Is My Faith Legit?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-my-faith-legit)** · Episode
  An examination of whether saving faith should be defined by feelings and what that answer means for Christian assurance.

**For Reflection**
1. What do you usually reach for first when your confidence falters?
2. How is confidence in Christ different from confidence in the strength of your own faith?

### 05. Understand the Christian Life

**Why this lesson:** Make room for real growth without pretending the struggle with sin is over.

**How can a Christian belong to Christ and still struggle with sin?**

Christians are righteous in Christ and still battle sin. God renews us in holiness, yet growth includes weakness, setbacks, and the need for correction. Remaining sin gives us reason to repent and seek help. It does not mean Christ has failed to save us. Because our standing rests in him, we can acknowledge failure without defending it or hiding it. Real growth and honest dependence on mercy belong together.

Based on [Why Do I Still Struggle with Sin?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-do-i-still-struggle-with-sin-w-luke-kjolhaugh).

- **Sanctification:** God's work of renewing believers in holiness throughout their lives.
- **Repentance:** Turning from sin toward God, depending on his mercy rather than hiding or defending the sin.

- **Lesson source: [Why Do I Still Struggle with Sin?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-do-i-still-struggle-with-sin-w-luke-kjolhaugh)** · Episode
  Jon Moffitt and Luke Kjolhaug discuss the saint-sinner reality and set realistic expectations for temptation, growth, and daily struggle.
- **Further study: [Obedience Is Not a Dirty Word](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/obedience-is-not-a-dirty-word)** · Episode
  A case for obedience as a good fruit of the Christian life, motivated by assurance and peace rather than scolding.
- **Further study: [Triumphalism](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/triumphalism)** · Episode
  A critique of the expectation that mature Christians should always appear victorious and consistently improving.
- **Further study: [Gospel-Driven Life](https://amzn.to/2vjcuul)** · Book
  Michael Horton. Optional reading: consider the gospel in the life of the church.
- **Further study: [The Whole Christ](https://amzn.to/2wCGRwM)** · Book
  Sinclair Ferguson. Optional reading: continue studying grace and obedience.
- **Further study: [Gospel Mystery of Sanctification](https://amzn.to/2uWMW57)** · Book
  Walter Marshall. Optional reading: continue studying the Christian life with a selection from our Sanctification list.

**For Reflection**
1. Do you tend to minimize sin or interpret every struggle as evidence that you do not belong to Christ?
2. What would honest repentance and receiving help look like in your local church?

### 06. Read Scripture Toward Christ

**Why this lesson:** See the Bible as one unfolding story of redemption centered on Jesus.

**How does reading Scripture toward Christ change what we look for?**

The Bible tells the unfolding story of redemption fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Each passage belongs to that story while retaining its own setting, purpose, and words. Read for what God reveals, promises, and accomplishes before reducing a passage to an example to imitate. Promises, sacrifices, kings, and deliverances prepare us to understand the Savior. Reading toward Christ helps us see how Scripture’s commands and promises shape faith and life.

Based on [Is the Whole Bible Really About Jesus?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-the-whole-bible-really-about-jesus).

- **Redemption:** God's work of rescuing his people from sin through Christ.
- **Christ-Centered Reading:** Reading a passage in its own context and within Scripture's larger witness to Christ.

- **Lesson source: [Is the Whole Bible Really About Jesus?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-the-whole-bible-really-about-jesus)** · Episode
  An introduction to typology, the interpretive pattern of Jesus and the apostles, and the fulfillment of Scripture's promises in Christ.
- **Further study: [How Not to Read Your Bible](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-not-to-read-your-bible)** · Episode
  Pastoral help for discouraged readers who feel they do not understand Scripture or get enough from their reading.
- **Further study: [Christless “Expository” Preaching](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/christless-expository-preaching)** · Article
  A discussion of what it means to preach Christ from all of Scripture and whether that makes every sermon sound the same.
- **Further study: [The Unfolding Mystery](https://amzn.to/2uZTAWK)** · Book
  Edmund Clowney. Optional reading: continue the study of Scripture with a selection from our Biblical Theology list.

**For Reflection**
1. What changes when you ask what a passage reveals about God's work before asking what you should do?
2. How can you keep a passage's original setting in view while reading it within the whole Bible?

### 07. Receive the Gifts of the Church

**Why this lesson:** Learn about the ordinary place where Christians hear, receive, and share these truths.

**What do Christians receive when the church gathers?**

When the church gathers, God strengthens faith through the ministry of the Word, baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and prayer. Believers also encourage and care for one another in fellowship. These gifts sustain weary Christians who need to hear the gospel again. Gathering gives us a place to receive God’s promises and serve people whose weaknesses we share. The Christian life is lived with others, in dependence on the same Savior.

Based on [Have We Missed the Point of Church?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/have-we-missed-the-point-of-church).

- **Ordinary Means of Grace:** The ordinary ways God nourishes faith, particularly the Word, sacraments, and prayer.
- **Fellowship:** The shared life of believers as they encourage, serve, and care for one another.

- **Lesson source: [Have We Missed the Point of Church?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/have-we-missed-the-point-of-church)** · Episode
  A confessional account of church as the place of forgiveness, Christ's righteousness, fellowship, and God's sustaining care.
- **Further study: [The Difference Between Sin and Struggle](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-difference-between-sin-and-struggle)** · Episode
  A distinction between unrepentant sin and the struggle of fallen believers, with implications for life together in the church.
- **Further study: [Should I Stay Or Should I Go?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go)** · Episode
  Pastoral guidance on when to leave a church, including unhelpful approaches and the importance of timing.

**For Reflection**
1. What do you expect to receive when your church gathers?
2. How might seeing church as a place of receiving grace change the way you care for others there?

### 08. Confess the Faith Together

**Why this lesson:** Why does a church use a confession?

**Why does a church use a confession?**

A confession gives a church shared language for what it believes Scripture teaches. It gathers biblical teaching into a public statement that can be examined, taught, and trusted. Historic confessions connect a congregation with Christians who have wrestled with the same questions before us. Scripture remains the authority by which every confession is judged. A church’s confession helps its members understand what will be taught and hold that teaching accountable.

Based on [What Does It Mean To Be Confessional?](https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-does-it-mean-to-be-confessional).

- **Confessional Theology:** Reading and teaching Scripture with a church’s publicly stated beliefs.
- **Objective Promise:** A promise grounded in God’s action, independent of changes in our feelings.

- **Lesson source: [What Does It Mean To Be Confessional?](https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-does-it-mean-to-be-confessional)** · Episode
  Why historic confessions matter for faith and church life.
- **Further study: [The Creedal Imperative](https://amzn.to/2u4hYcy)** · Book
  Carl R. Trueman. Optional reading: take the question of shared confessions into a longer study.

**For Reflection**
1. How could a shared confession help you understand what a church teaches?
2. Which part of your church’s confession would you like to discuss with a pastor?

### 09. Keep Receiving God’s Gifts

**Why this lesson:** How does God strengthen faith over time?

**How does God strengthen faith over time?**

God gives his people the Word, baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and prayer to strengthen their faith. These means of grace are ordinary gifts through which the Holy Spirit sustains us. The Christian life continues in dependence on the same grace by which it began. Regular worship gathers us around God’s promises and the people he calls us to love. We receive his care through these gifts even when our private efforts feel weak.

Based on [What Are the Means of Grace?](https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-are-the-means-of-grace).

- **Means of Grace:** The appointed ways God strengthens faith, including his Word, the sacraments, and prayer.
- **Sacraments:** Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, signs God gives his church in connection with his promises.

- **Lesson source: [What Are the Means of Grace?](https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-are-the-means-of-grace)** · Episode
  God’s provision for strengthening faith.
- **Further study: [Ordinary](https://amzn.to/2uZHKfg)** · Book
  Michael Horton. Optional reading: a companion from our Theology list for ongoing life in the church.

**For Reflection**
1. How does the way faith begins relate to the way it grows?
2. What could help you participate more attentively in your church’s ordinary worship?

### Further study

- [Covenant Theology](https://theocast.org/learn/covenant-theology): Redemption, works, and grace: how God’s covenants reveal his saving purpose and find their fulfillment in Christ.
- [Assurance of Salvation](https://theocast.org/learn/assurance): Confidence in Christ through changing feelings, ongoing struggles, and questions about obedience and salvation.
## Assurance of Salvation

> Study at your own pace.

Confidence in Christ through changing feelings, ongoing struggles, and questions about obedience and salvation.

7 lessons · 14 selected resources. Follow them in order or begin where your questions are most urgent. Study these truths alongside life in your local church.

*Source: https://theocast.org/learn/assurance*
*Last modified: 2026-09-15*

Books are optional further reading from Theocast’s recommended list. No purchase is needed to complete a lesson.

### 01. What Grounds Assurance?

**Why this lesson:** Where can my confidence rest when my record gives me reasons to doubt?

**Where can my confidence rest when my record gives me reasons to doubt?**

Christ’s sacrifice and righteousness stand outside the changing record of your week. Faith receives him; it does not supply a second achievement that makes his work sufficient. Hebrews 10:14 declares that by one offering Christ has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Growth continues, but acceptance is not waiting for that growth to reach a hidden threshold. Your confidence can rest in the offering Christ has completed and the promise God has made.

Based on [Recovering a Supernatural Assurance](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/recovering-a-supernatural-assurance).

- **Assurance:** Confidence in God’s saving promise in Christ.
- **Justification:** God’s declaration that a sinner is righteous on account of Christ, received through faith.

- **Lesson source: [Recovering a Supernatural Assurance](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/recovering-a-supernatural-assurance)** · Episode
  Christ’s completed work and the believer’s confidence.
- **Further study: [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ)** · Book
  Jon Moffitt. Optional reading: consider assurance in Christ's finished work when the pressure to perform leaves you weary.
- **Further study: [Justified By Faith Alone](https://amzn.to/2vbnWsC)** · Book
  R.C. Sproul. Optional reading: study justification alongside assurance.
- **Further study: [No Condemnation Now We Dread | Romans 8:1–4](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/no-condemnation-now-we-dread-romans-8-1-4)** · Article
  A written reflection on Christ’s righteousness and the promise of Romans 8.
- **Further study: [Assured by God](https://amzn.to/2ivELc0)** · Book
  Burke Parsons. Optional reading: continue with this assurance title from our Justification list.

**For Reflection**
1. When you doubt, what do you usually look at first: Christ’s promise or your recent performance?
2. How does a completed sacrifice differ from a spiritual score you must keep improving?

### 02. When You Don’t Feel Saved

**Why this lesson:** What if my feelings do not match what I believe?

**What if my feelings do not match what I believe?**

A distracted prayer or a season of sorrow can make faith feel uncertain. Yet the reliability of the Savior does not rise and fall with the intensity of your emotions. Faith rests on God’s promises fulfilled in Jesus. Feelings deserve honest attention, but they cannot carry the weight of proving Christ’s trustworthiness. Bring your doubts into the open, return to his promise, and receive encouragement from people who can help you hear it again.

Based on [Is My Faith Legit?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-my-faith-legit).

- **Object of Faith:** The one trusted: Jesus Christ, rather than the strength of your trusting.
- **Promise:** God’s word concerning what he will do, fulfilled in Christ.

- **Lesson source: [Is My Faith Legit?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-my-faith-legit)** · Episode
  Faith, changing feelings, and the reliability of God’s promises.
- **Further study: [Why You Don't Feel Saved](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/why-you-dont-feel-saved)** · Article
  Christ’s invitation to weary people who question their faith.

**For Reflection**
1. Which feelings have you treated as evidence that God has changed his mind about you?
2. What promise of Christ could you bring into a discussion with a trusted pastor or friend?

### 03. When Sin Persists

**Why this lesson:** Does ongoing struggle mean that I do not belong to Christ?

**Does ongoing struggle mean that I do not belong to Christ?**

The Christian life includes a real conflict with sin. Sanctification is promised, but its course is not always the steady improvement we imagine. This gives us reason to confess honestly and seek help, without treating every failure as proof that Christ has abandoned us. He is a sympathetic high priest who receives weak people in mercy. His care gives us somewhere to bring our sin, and the church gives us people with whom to face it.

Based on [Saints Who Still Sin](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/saints-who-still-sin).

- **Sanctification:** God’s continuing work of making believers holy.
- **Repentance:** Turning from sin toward God, including honestly acknowledging the need for mercy and help.

- **Lesson source: [Saints Who Still Sin](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/saints-who-still-sin)** · Episode
  The struggle with sin and Christ’s care for weak believers.
- **Further study: [Why Do I Still Struggle with Sin?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/why-do-i-still-struggle-with-sin)** · Article
  A written companion on the believer’s continuing struggle.
- **Further study: [The Bruised Reed](https://amzn.to/2u4AYaQ)** · Book
  Richard Sibbes. Optional reading: a companion from our Theology list for studying Christ’s care for weak believers.

**For Reflection**
1. How would confidence in Christ change the way you confess a recurring sin?
2. Who in your local church could help you face that struggle honestly?

### 04. Read the Warnings in Context

**Why this lesson:** How do serious warnings belong alongside promises of assurance?

**How do serious warnings belong alongside promises of assurance?**

Scripture’s warnings call for a response. Read them within the paragraph, the whole letter, and the gospel being proclaimed. In Hebrews 12, the pursuit of holiness belongs alongside God’s fatherly discipline and the call to look to Jesus. God corrects his children for their good. A warning against rejecting him must be taken seriously, while a struggling believer needs to hear the promises surrounding it. Ask whom the passage addresses, what it warns against, and how it calls its hearers to respond.

Based on [Assurance of Salvation (w/ Room for Nuance)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/assurance-of-salvation-w-room-for-nuance).

- **Context:** The surrounding argument that helps explain what a passage is saying.
- **Fatherly Discipline:** God’s correction of his children for their good, discussed in Hebrews 12.

- **Lesson source: [Assurance of Salvation (w/ Room for Nuance)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/assurance-of-salvation-w-room-for-nuance)** · Episode
  A discussion of warnings, holiness, and pastoral disagreement.

**For Reflection**
1. Read Hebrews 12:1–14. Who is addressed, and what response is called for?
2. How does reading the surrounding promises and commands affect your understanding of that warning?

### 05. Obedience and Self-Examination

**Why this lesson:** How can I take obedience seriously without making it the basis of my acceptance?

**How can I take obedience seriously without making it the basis of my acceptance?**

Obedience matters because God’s commands are good and our neighbors need our love. Self-examination helps us name sin, receive correction, and seek reconciliation. It cannot provide a substitute for Christ’s righteousness. When examination becomes an endless search for enough evidence to earn peace with God, it loses its proper purpose. Confess what needs repentance, receive the gospel’s assurance, and turn toward the people you are called to serve.

Based on [Assurance of Salvation (w/ Room for Nuance)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/assurance-of-salvation-w-room-for-nuance).

- **Fruit of Faith:** The good works that flow from faith, rather than purchase acceptance with God.
- **Self-Examination:** Honest attention to one’s beliefs and conduct, directed toward repentance rather than endless self-measurement.

- **Lesson source: [Assurance of Salvation (w/ Room for Nuance)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/assurance-of-salvation-w-room-for-nuance)** · Episode
  The same extended conversation, revisited with attention to obedience and examination.
- **Further study: [What Does “Examine Yourself” Actually Mean?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/what-does-examine-yourself-actually-mean)** · Article
  Read the examination passages with attention to their setting.

**For Reflection**
1. Is your self-examination helping you confess and love others, or keeping your attention fixed on your own standing?
2. What concrete act of love could follow from resting in Christ’s acceptance this week?

### 06. Answer Accusation with Christ

**Why this lesson:** What if shame keeps questioning your place in Christ?

**What if shame keeps questioning your place in Christ?**

Accusation can become a familiar habit of thought. Shame may lead you to question your standing even where Scripture has given no such verdict. Your conscience needs to be instructed by God’s Word, and a feeling of condemnation is not automatically his judgment. In Christ, sins can be confessed and forgiven. Bring a specific fear to a trusted pastor and consider how God’s promise answers it.

Based on [When We Don't See Satan's Accusations](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/when-we-dont-see-satans-accusations).

- **Condemnation:** A verdict of guilt and judgment, from which believers are freed in Christ.
- **Conscience:** Our awareness of moral responsibility, which needs instruction from God’s Word.

- **Lesson source: [When We Don't See Satan's Accusations](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/when-we-dont-see-satans-accusations)** · Episode
  The doubts and accusations that can become familiar.

**For Reflection**
1. What recurring accusation are you treating as though it were God’s verdict?
2. How could you test that accusation against what Scripture says?

### 07. Confess Without Hiding

**Why this lesson:** How does assurance make honest repentance possible?

**How does assurance make honest repentance possible?**

Confidence in Christ gives sinners somewhere to bring their failures. God receives his children in mercy, so confession does not require pretending to have outgrown weakness. Repentance brings sin into the light and seeks the help needed to turn from it. Assurance makes room for truthful relationships in the church, including acknowledgment of harm and the work of repair. Because forgiveness rests in Christ, we can stop hiding and ask for help.

Based on [Make Repentance Great Again](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/make-repentance-great-again).

- **Confession of Sin:** Honestly acknowledging sin before God and, where appropriate, those affected.
- **Continual Repentance:** The ongoing turning to God that belongs to the Christian life.

- **Lesson source: [Make Repentance Great Again](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/make-repentance-great-again)** · Episode
  God’s mercy and the freedom to confess sin.

**For Reflection**
1. What makes confession feel threatening to you?
2. What would one honest, appropriate step toward confession or repair look like this week?

### Further study

- [Lordship Salvation](https://theocast.org/learn/lordship-salvation): The relationship between saving faith, repentance, obedience, and assurance of salvation.
- [The Spiritual Realm](https://theocast.org/learn/spiritual-realm): Christ’s victory over evil and the believer’s confidence in the face of accusation, temptation, and spiritual opposition.
## Lordship Salvation

> Study at your own pace.

The relationship between saving faith, repentance, obedience, and assurance of salvation.

6 lessons · 11 selected resources. Follow them in order or begin where your questions are most urgent. Study these truths alongside life in your local church.

*Source: https://theocast.org/learn/lordship-salvation*
*Last modified: 2026-09-15*

Books are optional further reading from Theocast’s recommended list. No purchase is needed to complete a lesson.

### 01. Name the Disagreement

**Why this lesson:** How does obedience relate to saving faith?

**How does obedience relate to saving faith?**

Lordship Salvation concerns the relationship between saving faith, submission to Christ, and obedience. Jesus is Lord, and believers are called to obey him. The central question is how that obedience relates to justification and assurance. We are accepted by God through faith in Christ, whose righteousness is sufficient. Good works follow from faith, but they cannot bear the weight of establishing our acceptance. Keeping these relationships clear helps us care for Christians who struggle with sin and doubt.

Based on [Assurance of Salvation (w/ Room for Nuance)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/assurance-of-salvation-w-room-for-nuance).

- **Lordship Salvation:** An approach to saving faith that emphasizes submission to Christ’s lordship, raising questions about obedience and assurance.
- **Assurance:** Confidence in God’s saving promise in Christ.

- **Lesson source: [Assurance of Salvation (w/ Room for Nuance)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/assurance-of-salvation-w-room-for-nuance)** · Episode
  How does obedience relate to saving faith?
- **Further study: [Christ The Lord: The Reformation and Lordship Salvation](https://amzn.to/2uWObS9)** · Book
  Michael Horton. Optional reading: a book selected in our Lordship Salvation reading category.

**For Reflection**
1. Why do obedience and repentance belong in the Christian life?
2. What happens when obedience becomes the foundation of assurance?

### 02. Distinguish Command and Promise

**Why this lesson:** What happens when we ask the law to give us peace with God?

**What happens when we ask the law to give us peace with God?**

God’s law describes what righteousness requires and exposes our failure. The gospel announces Christ’s work for sinners. Adam disobeyed; Christ obeyed in the place of his people. If a command becomes something you must fulfill to secure acceptance, it cannot offer the rest that Christ’s promise provides. God’s commands remain good and binding, while our righteousness before him is received through faith in the Savior who has fulfilled them.

Based on [An Introduction to the Law and Gospel Distinction](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/an-introduction-to-the-law-and-gospel-distinction).

- **Law:** God’s commands, which reveal his righteousness and our need.
- **Gospel:** The good news of what Christ has done to save sinners.

- **Lesson source: [An Introduction to the Law and Gospel Distinction](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/an-introduction-to-the-law-and-gospel-distinction)** · Episode
  What happens when we ask the law to give us peace with God?
- **Further study: [Law-Gospel Preaching: Is It Dangerous?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/law-gospel-preaching-is-it-dangerous)** · Article
  How distinguishing law and gospel relates to obedience and assurance.

**For Reflection**
1. Choose a command and a promise from Scripture. What does each give its hearer?
2. How does Christ’s obedience change the way you think about your standing before God?

### 03. Receive Christ by Faith

**Why this lesson:** What makes faith a place of rest?

**What makes faith a place of rest?**

Resting in Christ means relying on his work for our standing before God. The law demands perfect obedience. Seeking even a small part of our righteousness in our own record adds pressure without resolving guilt. Faith receives the Savior who has met that need. He has borne sin’s penalty and fulfilled the law for his people. We can therefore approach God in confidence, trusting Christ’s righteousness rather than waiting until our performance feels sufficient.

Based on [Resting in Jesus Christ](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/resting-in-jesus-christ).

- **Faith:** Receiving and resting in Christ for salvation.
- **Righteousness:** The right standing before God that Christ provides, rather than a partial record of personal success.

- **Lesson source: [Resting in Jesus Christ](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/resting-in-jesus-christ)** · Episode
  What makes faith a place of rest?
- **Further study: [Justified By Faith Alone](https://amzn.to/2vbnWsC)** · Book
  R.C. Sproul. Optional reading: continue the question of acceptance with a selection from our Justification list.

**For Reflection**
1. What have you been trying to add to Christ’s work as a reason God should receive you?
2. How might resting in Christ change the way you respond to failure this week?

### 04. Put Obedience in Its Place

**Why this lesson:** How does obedience follow from union with Christ?

**How does obedience follow from union with Christ?**

Believers are united to Christ in his death and resurrection. Romans 6 grounds the call to obedience in that union: those who belong to him are called to live from the new life he gives. Grace does not make sin harmless. It frees us to confess sin, receive correction, and serve others without trying to purchase a status Christ has already given. Good works are the fruit of faith and expressions of love for our neighbors.

Based on [Assurance of Salvation (w/ Room for Nuance)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/assurance-of-salvation-w-room-for-nuance).

- **Union with Christ:** The believer’s connection to Christ and participation in the benefits of his saving work.
- **Good Works:** Obedience that serves God and neighbor as a result of grace.

- **Lesson source: [Assurance of Salvation (w/ Room for Nuance)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/assurance-of-salvation-w-room-for-nuance)** · Episode
  How does obedience follow from union with Christ?
- **Further study: [What Does “Examine Yourself” Actually Mean?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/what-does-examine-yourself-actually-mean)** · Article
  Self-examination in its biblical context.

**For Reflection**
1. How does Paul’s appeal to union with Christ answer the claim that grace makes sin harmless?
2. What act of love or repentance could grow from that confidence rather than from a need to earn acceptance?

### 05. Understand Repentance

**Why this lesson:** Is repentance another achievement to measure?

**Is repentance another achievement to measure?**

Repentance is agreeing with God about our sin and turning to him for mercy. It belongs with faith because the Savior we trust is the one to whom we turn. Repentance does not pay for sin or complete Christ’s sacrifice. It brings our need into the open. Christians continue to repent throughout life, including during persistent struggles. We can acknowledge sin honestly and seek help because forgiveness rests in Christ.

Based on [Repenting of Repentance](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/repenting-of-repentance).

- **Repentance:** Turning from sin to God in agreement with his Word.
- **Penance:** An attempt to make satisfaction for sin, distinguished here from receiving mercy in Christ.

- **Lesson source: [Repenting of Repentance](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/repenting-of-repentance)** · Episode
  A pastoral account of repentance and ongoing struggle.
- **Further study: [What is Repentance?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-is-repentance)** · Episode
  Repentance at conversion and throughout the Christian life.
- **Further study: [The Whole Christ](https://amzn.to/2wCGRwM)** · Book
  Sinclair Ferguson. Optional reading: a companion from our Sanctification list for the discussion of grace and repentance.

**For Reflection**
1. How does repentance differ from trying to pay for sin?
2. What does turning to Christ look like in a struggle that has not yet ended?

### 06. Read James 2 in Context

**Why this lesson:** What does James mean by faith without works?

**What does James mean by faith without works?**

James 2 confronts a profession of faith that leaves a hungry or poorly clothed neighbor without help. The passage directs attention toward concrete love. Living faith bears fruit because the believer receives life from Christ. Works reveal that life; they do not purchase justification. Read James’s examples in the argument of the letter, attending to favoritism, mercy, and the needs of others. Then consider whom your faith calls you to serve.

Based on [Faith Without Works Is Dead (James 2)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/faith-without-works-is-dead-james-2).

- **Living Faith:** Faith in Christ that bears fruit in love for others.
- **Good Works:** Acts of obedience and love that serve the needs God places before us.

- **Lesson source: [Faith Without Works Is Dead (James 2)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/faith-without-works-is-dead-james-2)** · Episode
  Faith, good works, and love within the argument of James.

**For Reflection**
1. What examples does James use to make the need for works concrete?
2. How could the distinction between faith’s fruit and its ground help you read this passage?

### Further study

- [Assurance of Salvation](https://theocast.org/learn/assurance): Confidence in Christ through changing feelings, ongoing struggles, and questions about obedience and salvation.
- [Covenant Theology](https://theocast.org/learn/covenant-theology): Redemption, works, and grace: how God’s covenants reveal his saving purpose and find their fulfillment in Christ.
## Covenant Theology

> Study at your own pace.

Redemption, works, and grace: how God’s covenants reveal his saving purpose and find their fulfillment in Christ.

6 lessons · 13 selected resources. Follow them in order or begin where your questions are most urgent. Study these truths alongside life in your local church.

*Source: https://theocast.org/learn/covenant-theology*
*Last modified: 2026-09-15*

Books are optional further reading from Theocast’s recommended list. No purchase is needed to complete a lesson.

### 01. Read the Covenants Together

**Why this lesson:** How do the covenants help us follow the story of Scripture?

**How do the covenants help us follow the story of Scripture?**

God’s covenants help us follow his saving purpose through the whole Bible. Redemption, works, and grace describe the plan of salvation, our need for righteousness, and the gift of that righteousness in Christ. The covenant of redemption is accomplished in history through Christ’s fulfillment of what Adam failed to do. The promise of grace unfolds through Scripture and reaches its fulfillment in the new covenant. Learning these connections helps us read individual passages within the story of salvation.

Based on [Introduction To Covenant Theology Part One](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/introduction-to-covenant-theology-part-one).

- **Covenant:** A binding relationship established by God, with promises and obligations.
- **1689 Federalism:** A Baptist account of the covenants associated with the Second London Baptist Confession.

- **Lesson source: [Introduction To Covenant Theology Part One](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/introduction-to-covenant-theology-part-one)** · Episode
  An overview of redemption, works, and grace.
- **Further study: [Covenant Theology: A Reformed Baptist Primer](https://amzn.to/2Z861Ar)** · Book
  Douglas Van Dorn. Optional reading: begin with a selection from the Baptist section of our covenant reading list.

**For Reflection**
1. What question about the relationship between the Old and New Testaments brought you here?
2. How do redemption, works, and grace help you connect the covenants in Scripture?

### 02. Salvation Planned by God

**Why this lesson:** Where does the plan of redemption begin?

**Where does the plan of redemption begin?**

The plan of redemption begins with God. The Father purposes salvation, the Son accomplishes it, and the Spirit applies it. Ephesians 1:3–14 joins these actions in praise: God chooses his people in Christ, grants redemption through his blood, and seals believers with the promised Spirit. Salvation rests on this work of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Our confidence begins with God’s saving purpose before it turns to the changing circumstances of our lives.

Based on [How does covenant theology encourage assurance and rest in Christ?](https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-does-covenant-theology-encourage-assurance-and-rest-in-christ).

- **Covenant of Redemption:** God’s eternal purpose, shared by Father, Son, and Spirit, to save a people in Christ.
- **Adoption:** God’s welcome of believers into his family through Christ.

- **Lesson source: [How does covenant theology encourage assurance and rest in Christ?](https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-does-covenant-theology-encourage-assurance-and-rest-in-christ)** · Episode
  Ephesians 1 and the saving work of the Trinity.
- **Further study: [Trinity & the Covenant of Redemption](https://amzn.to/2w2XQHj)** · Book
  J.V. Fesko. Optional reading: compare a selection from the Presbyterian section of our covenant reading list.

**For Reflection**
1. What does Ephesians 1 place before your own response to the gospel?
2. How might God’s purpose give comfort when your confidence is weak?

### 03. Adam and the Covenant of Works

**Why this lesson:** Why does Adam’s obedience matter for understanding Christ?

**Why does Adam’s obedience matter for understanding Christ?**

God placed Adam under his command, with life and death bound to obedience and disobedience. Adam acted as a representative of humanity, and his fall brought sin and death to those he represented. Romans 5 places Christ alongside Adam as the obedient representative whose righteousness brings life. The covenant of works helps explain our need for more than another opportunity to obey. We need a Savior who fulfills righteousness for us.

Based on [Is the Covenant of Works in the Bible? (w/ Pat Abendroth)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-the-covenant-of-works-in-the-bible-w-pat-abendroth).

- **Covenant of Works:** God’s covenant with Adam, requiring obedience and carrying the penalty of death for disobedience.
- **Representative Head:** Someone whose action counts for the people represented, as Adam and Christ do.

- **Lesson source: [Is the Covenant of Works in the Bible? (w/ Pat Abendroth)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-the-covenant-of-works-in-the-bible-w-pat-abendroth)** · Episode
  The biblical argument for the covenant of works.
- **Further study: [Covenant Theology: from Adam to Christ](https://amzn.to/2w744Ug)** · Book
  Nehemiah Coxe & John Owen. Optional reading: continue the study of Adam and Christ from our Baptist covenant list.

**For Reflection**
1. How does Romans 5:12–21 connect Adam’s disobedience with Christ’s obedience?
2. Why would Christ’s obedience matter if our problem includes Adam’s failure?

### 04. Follow the Promise of Grace

**Why this lesson:** How were believers saved before Christ came?

**How were believers saved before Christ came?**

After the fall, God promised that the woman’s offspring would defeat the serpent. That promise unfolds through the Old Testament as God preserves a people and prepares them for the coming Savior. Believers before Christ were saved by faith in the promised Messiah. In Baptist covenant theology, the covenant of grace is promised through these earlier covenants and established in the new covenant through Christ. The distinction between promise and fulfillment helps explain how the whole Bible tells one saving story.

Based on [The Covenant of Grace in the Old Testament](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-covenant-of-grace-in-the-old-testament).

- **Covenant of Grace:** God’s saving covenant in Christ, whose benefits are received through faith.
- **Types and Shadows:** Earlier people, events, and institutions that point forward to fulfillment in Christ.

- **Lesson source: [The Covenant of Grace in the Old Testament](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-covenant-of-grace-in-the-old-testament)** · Episode
  Trace the promise of grace through the Old Testament.
- **Further study: [The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom](https://press.founders.org/shop/the-mystery-of-christ-his-covenant-and-his-kingdom/)** · Book
  Samuel Renihan. Optional reading: continue with a longer work from our Baptist covenant list.

**For Reflection**
1. How does the promise in Genesis 3:15 shape the rest of the story?
2. What is the difference between a promise and its fulfillment?

### 05. Receive Christ’s Righteousness

**Why this lesson:** What does Christ give us beyond forgiveness?

**What does Christ give us beyond forgiveness?**

In Christ, believers receive both forgiveness and a righteous standing before God. His death answers for our guilt, and his obedience supplies the righteousness we lack. We receive these benefits through union with him by faith. The covenant of works helps explain why the Savior’s obedient life matters alongside his sacrificial death. Christ has fulfilled what God requires. Our acceptance is therefore secure in him, rather than dependent on completing what he began.

Based on [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/more-than-forgiven).

- **Active Obedience:** Christ’s fulfillment of God’s law on behalf of his people.
- **Imputation:** The crediting of Christ’s righteousness to believers.

- **Lesson source: [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/more-than-forgiven)** · Episode
  Christ’s obedience, forgiveness, and a righteous standing.
- **Further study: [No Condemnation Now We Dread | Romans 8:1–4](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/no-condemnation-now-we-dread-romans-8-1-4)** · Article
  Christ’s obedience and the believer’s standing in Romans 8.

**For Reflection**
1. How does being counted righteous differ from being given another chance to earn acceptance?
2. What would change in your prayers if you approached God on the basis of Christ’s righteousness?

### 06. Compare Ways of Reading Scripture

**Why this lesson:** Where do covenant theology and dispensationalism differ?

**Where do covenant theology and dispensationalism differ?**

Covenant theology reads Scripture as the unfolding fulfillment of God’s saving promise in Christ. Its relationship to dispensationalism involves several connected questions: how Christ is revealed throughout the Bible, how law and gospel relate, and how Adam’s and Christ’s obedience shape redemption. The traditions also differ in their accounts of Israel and the church. Studying these differences carefully helps us understand what an interpretation assumes and test it against Scripture.

Based on [Covenant Theology VS Dispensationalism](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/covenant-theology-vs-dispensationalism).

- **Dispensationalism:** A family of approaches that distinguishes administrations in God’s dealings with humanity and emphasizes distinctions between Israel and the church.
- **Christ-Centered Reading:** Reading a passage in its context and in relation to Scripture’s fulfillment in Christ.

- **Lesson source: [Covenant Theology VS Dispensationalism](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/covenant-theology-vs-dispensationalism)** · Episode
  Compare the two approaches under three specific headings.
- **Further study: [Credobaptism or Paedobaptism?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/credobaptism-or-paedobaptism)** · Article
  A related comparison within Reformed theology: Baptist and Presbyterian readings of the covenants and baptism.
- **Further study: [Introducing Covenant Theology](https://amzn.to/2vjzNEo)** · Book
  Michael Horton. Optional reading: read a Presbyterian selection alongside the Baptist teaching in this path.

**For Reflection**
1. How do your beliefs about Christ’s fulfillment of Scripture affect the way you read a passage?
2. What question would you want to ask someone who holds the other view?

### Further study

- [Calvinism](https://theocast.org/learn/calvinism): God’s sovereign grace in salvation: election, atonement, the Spirit’s call, and the preservation of believers.
- [An Introduction to Reformed Theology](https://theocast.org/learn/reformed-theology): The foundations of Reformed theology: gospel rest, law and gospel, assurance, sanctification, Scripture, and the church.
## Calvinism

> Study at your own pace.

God’s sovereign grace in salvation: election, atonement, the Spirit’s call, and the preservation of believers.

7 lessons · 15 selected resources. Follow them in order or begin where your questions are most urgent. Study these truths alongside life in your local church.

*Source: https://theocast.org/learn/calvinism*
*Last modified: 2026-09-15*

Books are optional further reading from Theocast’s recommended list. No purchase is needed to complete a lesson.

### 01. Begin with God’s Saving Work

**Why this lesson:** What is Calvinism?

**What is Calvinism?**

Calvinism describes God’s sovereign work in saving sinners. The five points address our need, God’s election, Christ’s atonement, the Spirit’s calling, and the preservation of believers. Together they explain why salvation depends on God’s mercy and action. We bring our sin and need; he gives life, righteousness, and forgiveness. These doctrines shape how we pray, preach the gospel, and care for weak believers. They belong within the wider teaching of Scripture about Christ and his church.

Based on [What Is Calvinism?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/what-is-calvinism).

- **Doctrines of Grace:** A name for the five teachings commonly summarized as Calvinism.
- **Monergism:** The teaching that God alone brings sinners from spiritual death to life.

- **Lesson source: [What Is Calvinism?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/what-is-calvinism)** · Article
  The doctrines of grace and God’s work in saving sinners.
- **Further study: [Why New Calvinism Is Not Reformed](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/why-new-calvinism-is-not-reformed)** · Article
  How the doctrines of grace relate to the broader Reformed tradition.
- **Further study: [The Five Points of Calvinism](https://amzn.to/2vurp0C)** · Book
  Edwin Palmer. Optional reading: use this selection from our Calvinism list as a book-length companion to the path.

**For Reflection**
1. How does God’s saving work shape the way a church preaches?
2. Which of the five points do you most want to understand?

### 02. Understand Total Depravity

**Why this lesson:** How deeply has sin affected us?

**How deeply has sin affected us?**

Sin affects every part of human life, including our desires, judgment, and will. Total depravity describes this reach of sin and our inability to give ourselves spiritual life. It does not mean every person commits every possible evil. Christians also continue to struggle with remaining sin. An honest account of our condition teaches dependence on mercy and the need for confession, correction, and care within the church.

Based on [The Dark Side of Christianity](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-dark-side-of-christianity).

- **Total Depravity:** Sin affects every part of us; we cannot make ourselves spiritually alive.
- **Remaining Sin:** The corruption believers continue to fight in this life.

- **Lesson source: [The Dark Side of Christianity](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-dark-side-of-christianity)** · Episode
  A conversation about depravity and the reality of sin.
- **Further study: [Willing to Believe](https://amzn.to/2t24hZ5)** · Book
  R.C. Sproul. Optional reading: follow the question of human ability with a selection from our Calvinism list.

**For Reflection**
1. How does remaining sin affect your expectations of yourself and other Christians?
2. How can a church take sin seriously while making honest confession possible?

### 03. Consider God’s Choice in Christ

**Why this lesson:** Does election lead us toward confidence or speculation?

**Does election lead us toward confidence or speculation?**

Election is God’s gracious choice of his people in Christ. Ephesians 1:3–14 places that choice before the foundation of the world and joins it to adoption, redemption, and the Spirit’s seal. God’s choice rests in his purpose and grace. The passage gives believers reason to praise him for salvation. Read election together with Christ’s saving work and his promise to receive those who come to him, rather than trying to discover a hidden reason for his mercy.

Based on [How does covenant theology encourage assurance and rest in Christ?](https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-does-covenant-theology-encourage-assurance-and-rest-in-christ).

- **Unconditional Election:** God’s choice to save rests in his gracious purpose, rather than foreseen merit.
- **Predestination:** God’s determination beforehand of his people’s adoption and inheritance in Christ.

- **Lesson source: [How does covenant theology encourage assurance and rest in Christ?](https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-does-covenant-theology-encourage-assurance-and-rest-in-christ)** · Episode
  God’s saving purpose in Ephesians 1.
- **Further study: [Chosen By God](https://amzn.to/2vjbO89)** · Book
  R.C. Sproul. Optional reading: continue studying election with this selection from our Calvinism list.

**For Reflection**
1. What does Ephesians 1:3–14 say God chose his people for?
2. Which part of the passage gives you a question to discuss with your pastor?

### 04. Ask What the Cross Accomplished

**Why this lesson:** What does particular atonement claim about Christ’s death?

**What does particular atonement claim about Christ’s death?**

Christ’s death accomplishes the redemption of his people. Particular atonement emphasizes the effective purpose of his sacrifice: the Savior gives his life for his sheep and secures their salvation. His death deals with their guilt and reconciles them to God. John 6:37–40 joins the Father’s gift of a people to the Son with Christ’s promise to receive and preserve them. That promise gives sinners confidence to come to him.

Based on [Limited Atonement (Calvinism Series)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/limited-atonement-calvinism-series).

- **Particular Atonement:** The teaching that Christ’s death secures the salvation of the people he came to redeem.
- **Atonement:** Christ’s sacrificial work dealing with sin and reconciling sinners to God.

- **Lesson source: [Limited Atonement (Calvinism Series)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/limited-atonement-calvinism-series)** · Episode
  The purpose and accomplishment of Christ’s death.

**For Reflection**
1. How does accomplishing redemption differ from making salvation possible?
2. How do the promises in John 6:37–40 shape the pastoral use of this doctrine?

### 05. Understand the Spirit’s Call

**Why this lesson:** How does someone who is spiritually dead come to faith?

**How does someone who is spiritually dead come to faith?**

A person who is spiritually dead cannot produce new life from within. The Holy Spirit gives that life and brings sinners to faith through the gospel. Effectual calling names this gracious work: God opens the heart to receive Christ, and the person truly believes. The power of conversion belongs to God. We therefore speak the gospel plainly and pray for his work, trusting him to accomplish what persuasion alone cannot do.

Based on [How Does God Bring Us to Faith?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/how-does-god-bring-us-to-faith).

- **Effectual Calling:** God’s work through his Word and Spirit that brings sinners to faith in Christ.
- **Regeneration:** The new spiritual life given by the Holy Spirit.

- **Lesson source: [How Does God Bring Us to Faith?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/how-does-god-bring-us-to-faith)** · Article
  Regeneration, effectual calling, and the Spirit’s work through the gospel.
- **Further study: [The Holy Spirit](https://amzn.to/2wmx0H8)** · Book
  Sinclair B. Ferguson. Optional reading: a companion from our Holy Spirit list for studying his work.

**For Reflection**
1. How does the account of spiritual death explain the need for the Spirit’s work?
2. What might change if evangelism depended on God’s power rather than your persuasiveness?

### 06. Trust God to Keep His People

**Why this lesson:** What happens when believers falter?

**What happens when believers falter?**

God preserves his people in faith through their lives. Abraham’s failures and the disciples’ fear show that believers remain weak and capable of serious sin. God’s faithfulness gives them reason to return to him. Perseverance includes repentance, correction, and the care of other believers. It does not promise a life without stumbling. Our hope rests in the Savior who sustains his people and calls them to continue trusting him.

Based on [When the Faithful Falter](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/when-the-faithful-falter).

- **Perseverance of the Saints:** God preserves his people so that they continue in faith to the end.
- **Preservation:** God’s faithful care that sustains believers, including through weakness and correction.

- **Lesson source: [When the Faithful Falter](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/when-the-faithful-falter)** · Episode
  Abraham, the disciples, and the Lord’s faithfulness.
- **Further study: [Grace as Divine Power?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/grace-as-divine-power)** · Article
  Grace as God’s provision for sustaining and strengthening believers.

**For Reflection**
1. How can you recognize God’s faithfulness to Abraham without making Abraham’s sin harmless?
2. How might God’s faithfulness affect the way you encourage a faltering friend?

### 07. Pray and Speak of Christ

**Why this lesson:** Why pray or evangelize if God is sovereign?

**Why pray or evangelize if God is sovereign?**

God’s sovereignty gives us reason to pray. He knows our needs, rules over our circumstances, and invites us to ask him for help. Prayer is one of the means he gives his people, expressing their dependence on him. The same confidence shapes evangelism. We can love our neighbors and speak of Christ without assuming that their conversion depends on our skill. God works through the gospel we share, and we trust him with the result.

Based on [How does God's sovereignty mesh with prayer?](https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-does-gods-sovereignty-mesh-with-prayer).

- **Sovereignty:** God’s authority and rule over creation and salvation.
- **Means:** The ways God appoints to carry out his purposes, including prayer and gospel proclamation.

- **Lesson source: [How does God's sovereignty mesh with prayer?](https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-does-gods-sovereignty-mesh-with-prayer)** · Episode
  Why God’s rule encourages prayer.
- **Further study: [How's Evangelism Going?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/hows-evangelism-going)** · Episode
  Loving neighbors and speaking of Christ.
- **Further study: [Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God](http://amzn.to/2w74iL6)** · Book
  J. I. Packer. Optional reading: take the relationship between God’s rule and evangelism into a longer study.

**For Reflection**
1. How does Jesus’ invitation to pray answer the concern that prayer is pointless?
2. Who could you pray for and care for this week?

### Further study

- [Covenant Theology](https://theocast.org/learn/covenant-theology): Redemption, works, and grace: how God’s covenants reveal his saving purpose and find their fulfillment in Christ.
- [Assurance of Salvation](https://theocast.org/learn/assurance): Confidence in Christ through changing feelings, ongoing struggles, and questions about obedience and salvation.
## The Spiritual Realm

> Study at your own pace.

Christ’s victory over evil and the believer’s confidence in the face of accusation, temptation, and spiritual opposition.

7 lessons · 14 selected resources. Follow them in order or begin where your questions are most urgent. Study these truths alongside life in your local church.

*Source: https://theocast.org/learn/spiritual-realm*
*Last modified: 2026-09-15*

Books are optional further reading from Theocast’s recommended list. No purchase is needed to complete a lesson.

### 01. Begin with Christ’s Victory

**Why this lesson:** Why does the cross matter for the unseen conflict?

**Why does the cross matter for the unseen conflict?**

Through his death and resurrection, Christ defeated the powers that held sinners in bondage. Colossians 2:13–15 connects the forgiveness of sin and cancellation of our debt with the disarming of rulers and authorities. The cross is therefore central to understanding spiritual warfare. Our confidence begins with the Savior’s accomplished victory. Questions about unseen things should be governed by what Scripture reveals about his work.

Based on [Satan, Did You Know?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/satan-did-you-know).

- **Spiritual Warfare:** The conflict with evil in which Christians depend on Christ and his provision.
- **Christ’s Victory:** The defeat of sin, death, and the devil through Christ’s saving work.

- **Lesson source: [Satan, Did You Know?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/satan-did-you-know)** · Episode
  The cross and Christ’s victory over Satan.
- **Further study: [Christ’s Victory Over the Principalities and Powers Part 1](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/christ-s-victory-over-the-principalities-and-powers-part-1)** · Article
  Jon Moffitt’s reading of Colossians 2 and the unseen powers. Some interpretive details are debated among Christians.
- **Further study: [The Cross of Christ](https://amzn.to/2w96kLo)** · Book
  John Stott. Optional reading: a companion from our Justification list for studying the cross, rather than a guide to every interpretation of the unseen realm.

**For Reflection**
1. How does Colossians 2:13–15 connect forgiveness with Christ’s victory?
2. Why should Christ’s revealed victory govern our questions about the unseen realm?

### 02. Recognize the Accuser

**Why this lesson:** How does accusation undermine assurance?

**How does accusation undermine assurance?**

Satan accuses believers, seeking to undermine confidence in God’s fatherly care and Christ’s sufficiency. Accusation directs attention to our weakness as though it could overturn the Savior’s promise. Sin calls for confession and repentance, but Christ receives those who come to him for mercy. A troubled conscience needs the gospel. His righteousness and sacrifice answer the guilt that our own record cannot resolve.

Based on [Tactics of the Accuser (Part 1)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/tactics-of-the-accuser-part-1).

- **Accusation:** A charge used to undermine confidence in God’s mercy and Christ’s sufficiency.
- **Assurance:** Confidence in God’s saving promise in Christ.

- **Lesson source: [Tactics of the Accuser (Part 1)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/tactics-of-the-accuser-part-1)** · Episode
  How accusation targets the peace of believers.

**For Reflection**
1. How can accusation affect a believer’s confidence in God’s care?
2. What gospel truth would you bring to a friend who thinks failure has placed them beyond mercy?

### 03. Recognize Misused Law

**Why this lesson:** How can a good command become a weapon of condemnation?

**How can a good command become a weapon of condemnation?**

God’s law is good, but its demands can be used to drive sinners toward despair or self-righteousness. Neither supplies the righteousness we need. Christ has canceled the record of debt against his people, and the accusing powers cannot undo his work. Colossians 2 joins forgiveness with their defeat. We can hear God’s commands truthfully while trusting Christ, rather than making our obedience the answer to every accusation.

Based on [How Satan Uses the Law](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-satan-uses-the-law).

- **Legalism:** Treating personal obedience as the ground of acceptance with God.
- **Law and Gospel:** The distinction between God’s commands and the announcement of Christ’s saving work.

- **Lesson source: [How Satan Uses the Law](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-satan-uses-the-law)** · Episode
  Legalism, condemnation, and the work of Christ.
- **Further study: [How Satan Uses the Law](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/how-satan-uses-the-law)** · Article
  A written summary of the episode on legalism and spiritual warfare.

**For Reflection**
1. How does the cancellation of our debt remove the force of accusation?
2. What happens to assurance when your own obedience must answer every accusation?

### 04. Resist Temptation and Distraction

**Why this lesson:** What can draw a church away from its calling?

**What can draw a church away from its calling?**

Temptation draws us toward sin, while distraction can turn our attention from the church’s calling even through worthwhile pursuits. Believers are called to be sober-minded: watchful, clear in judgment, and attentive to Christ. Ordinary responsibilities and interests need not be abandoned. They must be ordered in a way that leaves room to receive God’s Word and love his people. Watchfulness directs us toward faithful care for others.

Based on [Tactics of the Accuser (Part 2)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/tactics-of-the-accuser-part-2).

- **Temptation:** An enticement to distrust or disobey God.
- **Sober-Mindedness:** Watchful, clear judgment about the Christian life and its dangers.

- **Lesson source: [Tactics of the Accuser (Part 2)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/tactics-of-the-accuser-part-2)** · Episode
  Temptation, distraction, and the church’s calling.

**For Reflection**
1. What good activity could become a distraction from caring for others?
2. How would watchfulness differ from becoming preoccupied with identifying hidden threats?

### 05. Stand Together in the Church

**Why this lesson:** What does resisting the devil look like in a congregation?

**What does resisting the devil look like in a congregation?**

The warnings in James 4 and Ephesians 4 address the life of believers together. Quarrels, anger, and destructive speech harm the fellowship Christ has given his church. Resisting the devil therefore has practical consequences for ordinary relationships. Read these warnings with the surrounding calls to humility, truthful speech, forgiveness, and love. A congregation stands together as its members repent and care for one another.

Based on [How Satan Attacks Christians Today](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-satan-attacks-christians-today).

- **Congregation:** A local gathering of believers who worship and care for one another.
- **Foothold:** An opportunity for the devil’s activity, described in Ephesians 4.

- **Lesson source: [How Satan Attacks Christians Today](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-satan-attacks-christians-today)** · Episode
  Spiritual opposition in the setting of church life.
- **Further study: [Grace as Divine Power?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/grace-as-divine-power)** · Article
  God’s grace as provision for the Christian life.
- **Further study: [The Holy Spirit](https://amzn.to/2wmx0H8)** · Book
  Sinclair B. Ferguson. Optional reading: broaden the study with a book from our Holy Spirit list.

**For Reflection**
1. Which surrounding commands help explain the warning in Ephesians 4?
2. What relationship in your church could benefit from repentance or a patient conversation?

### 06. Return to Christ When Accused

**Why this lesson:** Where can a weary Christian find confidence?

**Where can a weary Christian find confidence?**

Christ defends his people against accusation. His sacrifice and righteousness give us an answer when failure tempts us toward despair, and they remove the need to establish a righteousness of our own. Attention to spiritual opposition should deepen our dependence on him. We can confess sin, receive mercy, and encourage one another because the Savior’s work is sufficient. The study of spiritual warfare belongs within this life of faith and love.

Based on [Jesus and the Accuser (w/ Chad Bird & Ken Jones)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/jesus-and-the-accuser-w-chad-bird-ken-jones).

- **Self-Righteousness:** Seeking a secure standing before God in one’s own moral record.
- **Gospel Comfort:** The reassurance given by Christ’s saving work and promise to sinners.

- **Lesson source: [Jesus and the Accuser (w/ Chad Bird & Ken Jones)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/jesus-and-the-accuser-w-chad-bird-ken-jones)** · Episode
  A pastoral panel on how Christ defends accused believers.
- **Further study: [When We Don't See Satan's Accusations](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/when-we-dont-see-satans-accusations)** · Episode
  Recognizing accusations that often go unnoticed.

**For Reflection**
1. How can the same accusation lead one person toward pride and another toward despair?
2. What from this path could help you bring a specific doubt to Christ and a trusted pastor?

### 07. See the Rebellion That Failed

**Why this lesson:** Why does Genesis 6 belong in a study of spiritual conflict?

**Why does Genesis 6 belong in a study of spiritual conflict?**

Peter and Jude read Genesis 6 as an attempt to corrupt the line through which the promised seed of Genesis 3:15 would come. It failed. God preserved an uncorrupted family, and in 1 Peter 3 Christ proclaims victory to the spirits who did not obey in the days of Noah. Peter then places angels, authorities, and powers under his authority. Christians have long differed over the identity of the sons of God, and we can hold that question generously. The apostles' purpose does not depend on settling it: they want our eyes open to a realm we cannot see and our confidence resting in a victory already won.

Based on [Giants from Angels? Genesis 6 Explained](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/giants-from-angels-genesis-6-explained).

- **Nephilim:** The Hebrew term in Genesis 6 for the offspring described there, rendered as giants in some translations and connected later to the Anakim and Rephaim.
- **Sons of God:** A phrase used in Job of heavenly beings present before humanity was created; in the New Testament believers receive the title through adoption in Christ.

- **Lesson source: [Giants from Angels? Genesis 6 Explained](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/giants-from-angels-genesis-6-explained)** · Episode
  A full walk through Genesis 6, the objections, and how Peter and Jude use the passage.
- **Further study: [Who Are the Sons of God in Genesis 6?](https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/who-are-the-sons-of-god-in-genesis-6)** · Article
  The same argument in written form, from the text of Genesis through 1 Peter, 2 Peter, and Jude.

**For Reflection**
1. Which passages of Scripture do you tend to skip, and what might you be missing by avoiding them?
2. When evil appears to be winning, where does Peter direct a suffering church to look?

### Further study

- [Assurance of Salvation](https://theocast.org/learn/assurance): Confidence in Christ through changing feelings, ongoing struggles, and questions about obedience and salvation.
- [An Introduction to Reformed Theology](https://theocast.org/learn/reformed-theology): The foundations of Reformed theology: gospel rest, law and gospel, assurance, sanctification, Scripture, and the church.

## Articles

### Who Are the Sons of God in Genesis 6?

*Published: September 18, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/who-are-the-sons-of-god-in-genesis-6*
*Tags: Genesis, Spiritual Realm*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Giants from Angels? Genesis 6 Explained](/blogs/theocast/giants-from-angels-genesis-6-explained)

Genesis 6 tells us that the sons of God saw the daughters of man, that they took wives for themselves, and that the Nephilim were on the earth in those days. Most of us learned to read past it quickly. The passage feels like mythology dropped into the middle of Scripture, and we are not sure what to do with giants.

Yet two apostles thought this story was worth telling to suffering Christians. That alone should slow us down.

## Why This Question Keeps Returning

The debate has grown louder in recent years, and thoughtful Reformed teachers have argued publicly for the angelic reading, some from the text and some from the early church. For the first four centuries, the angelic view was not merely common. It was the settled assumption of the writers we still read. The Sethite view, which treats the sons of God as the godly line of Seth, became the majority position later, largely through Augustine.

We raise this not to settle a controversy by counting votes. We raise it because many of us were handed one reading without ever being told there was another, and without being shown what the apostles do with the passage.

## Reading the Text Itself

Moses tells us that man began to multiply and that daughters were born to them. Those daughters are plainly human. Then the sons of God see that the daughters of man are attractive, and they take wives for themselves.

Two groups are being set beside each other. One is named in ordinary human terms. The other is not. The question the text puts in front of us is simple: who are these sons of God?

The verbs deserve our attention. They saw, and they took. That is the movement of Genesis 3, where Eve saw that the fruit was good and took it. Something forbidden is seen, desired, and seized. A boundary God established is crossed.

It is also worth noticing what surrounds the passage. Nothing in Genesis 4 through 7 introduces the line of Seth as a category called the sons of God. The reading has to be imported from outside the narrative.

## The Sons of God in the Old Testament

This is the first appearance of the phrase, so we look for where else Scripture uses it. We find it in Job.

In Job 1 and Job 2, the sons of God present themselves before the Lord. That gathering is in heaven rather than on earth, and the accuser comes among them. These are not men.

Job 38:7 settles the matter. God describes the morning stars singing together and the sons of God shouting for joy while the foundations of the earth were laid. Seth did not exist. Neither did any human being. Whoever the sons of God are, they were present before humanity was made, which rules out both a godly human line and a dynasty of human kings.

In the New Testament we are called sons of God, but Scripture tells us plainly how we receive that title. It comes by adoption in Christ. The Old Testament use is doing something different.

## Do Angels Have Bodies?

The first objection we usually hear is that angels are spirits and cannot act physically.

Scripture is more physical about the spiritual realm than we tend to be. In Genesis 18, Abraham washes his visitors’ feet and feeds them. Their feet had gathered dust, and they ate what he prepared. In Genesis 19, the men of the city see them as men and demand that Lot hand them over.

We are not told how any of this works. Scripture does not give us a mechanics of the unseen world. Paul tells us we wrestle against rulers and authorities, that the conflict is real, and that we stand in the strength of the Lord. He does not satisfy our curiosity beyond that. But the claim that the spiritual realm has no physical point of contact is not what the text shows us.

## What Jesus Actually Said

The second objection is that Jesus settled the question when he said that in the resurrection people neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven.

Context matters here. He is answering a trap about a woman who had seven husbands, designed to make the resurrection look absurd. His subject is marriage in the age to come, not the capacities of angels.

And notice what he says. Angels in heaven do not marry. That describes what they do in their proper place, where things are as they should be. It does not tell us what they are able to do. There is a difference between cannot and does not, and the whole objection rests on reading one as the other.

That phrase, in heaven, turns out to matter. Peter and Jude both describe angels who did not stay where they belonged.

## The Giants Are Not a Footnote

Genesis 6 tells us the Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward. Nephilim is simply the Hebrew word carried over into our translations; some render it giants.

If this passage were only about godly men marrying ungodly women, we would expect a troubled household and children who wander from the faith. We would not expect a category of being that terrifies an army. Believers marry unbelievers constantly, and no giants result.

Scripture keeps giving us more. In Numbers 13, the spies describe the sons of Anak who came from the Nephilim, and say they felt like grasshoppers. Deuteronomy links the Emim, the Anakim, and the Rephaim as peoples great and tall. Moses records that Og of Bashan had an iron bed nine cubits long, somewhere near thirteen or fourteen feet.

Then we meet Goliath. We usually remember his height and forget his equipment. His bronze coat weighs five thousand shekels, roughly a hundred and twenty-five pounds, and the shaft of his spear is compared to a weaver’s beam. Assemble the whole kit and you are carrying several hundred pounds onto a battlefield. Hand that load to the strongest man alive and he cannot lift his arms to fight. An army refuses to face him, and they are not being cowardly.

Joshua tells us these peoples were violent, and the record of the conquest treats certain clans as something to be removed rather than merely defeated. The text is describing strength that is not ordinary human strength.

## A Corrupted Earth and an Uncorrupted Line

Genesis 6 then tells us the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and that all flesh had corrupted its way. Human sin is certainly part of that. The text says all flesh, and by this point in the narrative more than humanity is in view.

Just before the flood account, Moses calls Noah a righteous man, blameless in his generations, and then gives us his family line. Noah is not righteous because of his performance. Scripture is consistent that righteousness comes by faith. But that second word is doing particular work.

Blameless translates a Hebrew word that Leviticus uses for a sacrificial animal without blemish. Set beside a genealogy, the phrase speaks of a line that remained uncorrupted. That is why the genealogy sits where it does.

## A Rebellion That Failed

Three chapters earlier, God made a promise. The seed of the woman would crush the serpent’s head.

That phrasing would not have been lost on its first hearers. Descent was reckoned through the man, so a seed belonging to the woman points ahead to a birth unlike any other. The deliverer would come as a human being.

Read Genesis 6 against that promise and the strategy comes into view. Corrupt the human line, and the promised seed cannot arrive. Judgment can be postponed forever.

It failed. God cleansed the earth, preserved one uncorrupted family, and the promise held. Scripture goes on weaving the same thread. A shepherd from the line that leads to Christ takes down a giant and cuts off his head, and we are meant to hear Genesis 3 in it.

## How Peter Uses the Story

Here the passage stops being a curiosity.

Peter writes to believers scattered across Asia Minor. They have been pushed to the margins and persecuted for their faith. They gave their lives to God, and it feels like the losing side. The powers of Rome look like they are winning.

In 1 Peter 3, Christ is put to death in the flesh and made alive in the spirit, and he goes and proclaims to the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey in the days of Noah. The timing is explicit. This is Genesis 6.

What did he proclaim? Victory. This is not a second chance offered to the dead. It is an announcement to the powers that tried to prevent his coming that they have lost. Peter then finishes the thought: Christ has gone into heaven and is at the Father’s right hand, with angels, authorities, and powers subjected to him. To a church that feels forgotten, that last line is the entire point.

In 2 Peter 2, the same story becomes a warning. False teachers are exploiting the church and appear to face no consequences. Peter answers that their condemnation is not idle. God did not spare angels when they sinned but committed them to chains of gloomy darkness until judgment. He moves straight from there to Noah and the flood, then to Sodom and Gomorrah, and the thread running through all of it is sensuality.

Twice, in two letters, Peter reaches for this passage. Once to comfort and once to warn. Whatever we conclude about the details, we cannot say this is an obscure corner of Scripture that pastors should avoid.

## How Jude Uses It

Jude removes any remaining ambiguity. The angels who did not stay within their own position of authority left their proper dwelling, and he keeps them in chains until the judgment of the great day.

Then Jude adds a comparison. They did this just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire. He places the sin of these angels alongside a sin of that kind, in a story where angels appear again.

Jude also quotes Enoch on the coming judgment. That does not make Enoch Scripture, any more than Paul quoting pagan poets makes them Scripture. It tells us his readers knew the material and that he did not need to explain it. The passage he draws from sits in the middle of a retelling of this same rebellion.

## Learning to See the Whole Field

The New Testament writers assumed a world with more in it than we usually allow. Paul says our struggle is not against flesh and blood. He warns that people can appear as servants of righteousness while serving another master. John tells us to test the spirits. James tells us to resist the devil. None of them treat this as exotic.

We have often read the Old Testament battles as merely physical and the New Testament as merely moral. Peter and Jude read them as one conflict. The nation was established to bring the Messiah. The Messiah has come. The powers lost that war, and they now turn their attention to his church.

This is not an invitation to speculate or to go looking for demons. It is an invitation to stop being surprised.

## How We Actually Fight

Paul tells us the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds, and he tells us what those strongholds are. They are arguments and lies raised against the knowledge of God. The battlefield is what we believe.

So we fight where God has told us to stand. Preaching, prayer, singing, the Lord’s table, baptism, and the ordinary company of God’s people. These look unremarkable, which is exactly why we underrate them. Peter tells the same suffering church to be sober-minded and watchful, because what is prowling after them is after their minds.

Notice as well how Peter handles Christians who are not growing. He does not question whether they belong to Christ. He says they have forgotten that they were cleansed. That is a different pastoral instinct than most of us were trained to have, and it is the one that actually bears fruit.

## Our Hope

Faithful Christians have read the sons of God differently, and we can hold that question generously. What Peter and Jude do with the story does not depend on settling it.

Whichever way we read Genesis 6, the apostles want the same thing for us. They want our eyes open to a realm we cannot see, and our confidence resting somewhere other than what we can presently observe. Evil is not new, it is not winning, and it has been publicly defeated.

The rebellion failed. The powers are subjected to Christ. The wicked will be judged and the righteous will be saved, and we receive that by faith rather than by resolving every question about giants. We are not called to hunt anything. We are called to look to the one who cleansed us, and to hold onto the fact that he holds us still.

---

### How Does God Bring Us to Faith?

*Published: September 15, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/how-does-god-bring-us-to-faith*

The gospel announces what Jesus Christ has done for sinners. He has fulfilled righteousness, borne sin’s penalty, and risen from the dead. Faith receives this Savior. But how does someone who is spiritually dead come to trust him?

## New life is God’s gift

Sin reaches into our desires, judgment, and will. We cannot cure that condition by persuading ourselves to become spiritually alive. The Holy Spirit must give the life we lack. This work is called regeneration.

The word _monergism_ describes God’s work in bringing sinners from death to life. There is one worker who gives that life: God. Our need is met by his gracious action, rather than a contribution that makes us worthy of being saved.

## The Spirit works through the gospel

Effectual calling names God’s work through his Word and Spirit that brings a sinner to faith. The gospel is proclaimed, the heart is opened, and the person receives Christ. Faith is a real response of trust. The power that brings us to that response belongs to God.

This is why preaching centers on the Savior and his accomplished work. Explaining how to improve our lives cannot supply the spiritual life we need. We need to hear who Christ is and what he has done for us.

## Confidence in God frees us to speak

We can explain the gospel clearly, answer questions patiently, and love our neighbors. We cannot produce conversion through our skill. Trusting the Spirit’s work relieves us of that burden while giving us reason to keep speaking of Christ.

The same confidence gives us reason to pray. God invites us to ask him for what we cannot provide. His sovereignty encourages dependence: he knows our needs and has the power to meet them.

## Faith looks to the Savior

The point of understanding God’s call is to see his grace more clearly. Faith receives Christ, whose righteousness and sacrifice are sufficient. Our hope rests in the one who saves us, and our thanksgiving returns to the God who gave us life.

Adapted for reading from the opening teaching on salvation in [The “Five Points” of Reformed Theology](/blogs/podcast-transcription/the-five-points-of-reformed-theology-transcript). Continue with [How Does God’s Sovereignty Mesh with Prayer?](/blogs/asktheocast/how-does-gods-sovereignty-mesh-with-prayer) and [How’s Evangelism Going?](/blogs/theocast/hows-evangelism-going).

---

### What Is Calvinism?

*Published: September 15, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/what-is-calvinism*

Salvation belongs to the Lord. We cannot give ourselves spiritual life, remove our guilt, or supply the righteousness God requires. God does what we cannot do: he gives life, forgives sin, and receives us in Christ.

Calvinism describes this work of sovereign grace. Its familiar five points answer connected questions about our need and God’s provision. They help us understand why faith rests in Christ and why the gospel gives weary sinners hope.

## Our need and God’s mercy

Total depravity means sin affects every part of us, including our desires and will. We need more than instruction or encouragement to improve. We need spiritual life that only God can give.

Unconditional election places the beginning of salvation in God’s gracious purpose. Ephesians 1:3–14 joins his choice of a people in Christ with their adoption, redemption, and the Spirit’s seal. The passage leads believers to praise God for what he has done.

## What Christ and the Spirit accomplish

Particular atonement concerns the effective purpose of Christ’s death. The Savior gives his life for his people and secures their redemption. John 6:37–40 connects the Father’s gift of a people to the Son with Jesus’ promise to receive and preserve them.

Effectual calling describes the Spirit’s work bringing sinners to faith through the gospel. God opens the heart to receive Christ. The person truly believes, but the life that makes this response possible is a gift of grace.

## God keeps those he saves

Perseverance means God sustains his people in faith. Believers still stumble and need repentance, correction, and encouragement. Their hope rests in the Savior’s faithfulness, rather than a promise of uninterrupted personal improvement.

## Grace changes how we live

These doctrines belong in prayer, preaching, and the care of struggling Christians. We pray because God can give what we need. We proclaim Christ because the Spirit works through the gospel. We encourage weak believers by pointing them to the righteousness and mercy of their Savior.

Calvinism is part of the larger teaching of Reformed theology, which also concerns God’s covenants, the church’s confession, the means of grace, and law and gospel. These truths belong together because they direct us to the same Christ.

Adapted for reading from [The “Five Points” of Reformed Theology](/blogs/podcast-transcription/the-five-points-of-reformed-theology-transcript), with further teaching from [God’s saving purpose in Ephesians 1](/blogs/asktheocast/how-does-covenant-theology-encourage-assurance-and-rest-in-christ), [Limited Atonement](/blogs/theocast/limited-atonement-calvinism-series), and [When the Faithful Falter](/blogs/theocast/when-the-faithful-falter).

---

### Law-Gospel Preaching: Is It Dangerous?

*Published: August 27, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/law-gospel-preaching-is-it-dangerous*
*Tags: Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction*

There have been conversations in the Reformed Baptist world about law-gospel preaching and whether it is dangerous for a believer's assurance. Posts and videos have been circulating. I am not going to answer those directly.

I want to set out the historic understanding of law and gospel, then let our confession teach us how to preach assurance to the saints. Law-gospel distinction is not new, and it is not only Lutheran. It belongs to the Reformed faith. For my Reformed Baptist brothers, it is in our confession. It guides how we preach and how we read. It is not the only hermeneutic. Jesus himself uses it.

The concern I keep hearing is this. If you distinguish law and gospel, and you keep pointing people to their justification, you will never talk about obedience. People will wander. History will supply a failed preacher, and someone will say the theology produced the lifestyle.

Every movement has failed theologians. Paul already had to ask whether we should sin so that grace might abound, and he answered, "May it never be." When you preach grace as Scripture preaches it, that question comes up. Paul was not ashamed of the gospel, because he believed it was the power of God for the salvation of the entire person: forgiveness, sanctification, glorification. Not a ticket into a relationship, then a handoff to the flesh.

## What We Mean by Law and Gospel

The gospel is the salvation of the whole person. He who began a good work in you will complete it. We look to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. Grace appeared as a person. He was sinless, so he could be our substitute. He was also righteous. God's law does not ask for a clean slate. It demands perfection, perpetual and continual. James says that if you fail in one point, you fail in all. Jesus did not fail in one jot.

Sanctification is Christ's work too. We have agency. We do the good works. When Scripture names the power, God is the one who pulls out the heart of stone, puts in a heart of flesh, and causes us to walk in his ways. The works were prepared beforehand, right after "not by works, lest any man should boast." If he began the work, he continues it. Romans 8 runs from calling through glorification. A power outside ourselves completes the whole Christian life. You see that power in good works. Good works are inevitable and wonderful. Christians can also have long seasons of obedience, and of disobedience. Our confession will say so.

The good news is that Christ is sufficient to save the whole person, and by faith that reality is yours.

The law is the requirement. I believe in the third use of the law. Once you are in Christ, the law does not come to condemn you. To the rich young ruler who asked what he must do to inherit, Jesus said, keep the commandments. That use of the law crushes us, because we cannot keep it perfectly. After the Spirit lives in you, the law remains, but your relationship to it has changed. Your inadequacies are covered by Christ. Hebrews says it is impossible to please him without faith. We seek to obey, and we do it imperfectly. Our goal is to be like Christ.

So how do we preach? Do we emphasize obedience so that people will turn to obedience? Or do we tell them who they are in Christ, then point them to obedience and say, go and do likewise?

Paul calls the first move witchcraft. Mix the law back into the gospel and you attribute the power of God to something else. You began by faith in Jesus Christ. You continue that way. You do not use law-obedience to change the heart. Fruit of the Spirit means Christ is doing the work.

John writes that what we will be has not yet appeared, and everyone who hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. The hope is in him. When the fruits are lacking in 2 Peter, Peter does not call their salvation into question. He says they have forgotten they were cleansed from their former sins. They were not in opposition to him. They were not obeying. He points them back to Christ.

Paul called the Corinthians elect brothers while he planned to come and preach the gospel to them, because that is what would straighten them out. He also gave them a great deal of law. The foundation is Christ first.

Here is the illustration I use. If I give you instructions to my house, those instructions cannot get you there. They can only tell you where to go. You need some power besides the map. Once you are a believer, Christ is the power. The law is the instructions. We do not use the law to motivate us. We use the law to guide us, because our hearts are still sinful and we have not yet been transformed.

## Founded on the Blood and Righteousness of Christ

Chapter 18.2 of the 1689, on assurance of grace and salvation, says this certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith, founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the gospel, and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirit that we are the children of God; and as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy.

The framers give more than one gift. They use the word "founded" once. It is founded upon Christ, not upon the graces. If the foundation is not Christ, the house crumbles. Your involvement is not at the foundation. The way we preach should reflect that.

The other two are gifts we did not merit. The inward evidences of the Spirit include faith itself. Faith is a gift, Ephesians 2, not of works, lest any man should boast. Then the Spirit of adoption witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God. Christ covers sin and supplies righteousness. The Spirit gives faith. The Spirit testifies, you are adopted, because your faith is in that foundation. Even if you try to find assurance in your faith, your faith is not your own.

> Chapter 16.3: "Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ; and that they may be enabled thereunto, besides the graces they have already received, there is necessary an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will and to do of his good pleasure."

They are quoting Philippians 2:13\. Galatians 5:22 calls this fruit of the Spirit. Ephesians 2 says the works were prepared beforehand. If there is fruit, it is evidence of what is already happening in you. Faith produces the fruit.

## Obedience is the Fruit of this Assurance

Chapter 18.3 says it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.

The confession wants holiness. Paul wanted holiness. "May it never be" is in the Bible because grace, preached properly, raises the question. Cheerfulness in the duties of obedience is the proper fruit of assurance. Good works flow from being assured of your position in Christ. They do not flow from preaching the law as fear.

2 Peter 1:10 sits right after 1:9\. You have forgotten you were cleansed from your former sins. Therefore be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election. Confirm, not establish. He does not tell you to establish your election by your obedience. Verse 3 already said his divine power has granted you all things that pertain to life and godliness. Because you have that power, go produce fruit. If you are not producing fruit, you have forgotten. The cycle keeps returning to Christ, and to the evidence of Christ in you, which is faith.

## Strengthen is not the Whole of 16.2

Do our good works affect our assurance? Yes. The sentence people quote is not in the chapter on assurance. It is in the chapter on good works, 16.2, and it is about what good works are for.

These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith. And by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end, eternal life.

That paragraph is not about establishing assurance. It is a list of the purposes of good works. Thankfulness. Strengthen their assurance. Edify the brethren. Adorn the gospel. Stop adversaries. Glorify God. Six. Five of them look outward. One of them is inward. Isolating "strengthen their assurance" from the rest of that list is pietistic. It matches revivalistic preaching, which is why we reach for it.

You cannot strengthen what is not there. Strengthen means it is already founded and held up by something else. When I am glorifying God, obeying him, and edifying my brothers, I am encouraged by what God is doing in me. I can feel the Spirit's power. That does strengthen my faith. It is still a work of Christ. Living a holy life is better for you, for me, and for God's glory than living an unholy life. I tell people that all the time. That is the positive use of 16.2.

The concern, though, is the person who is not obeying. Someone who objects to God's law and claims there are no consequences is not a believer. What about the person who agrees the law is right and has found himself trapped in sin? Galatians 6:1\. James 5.

## When True Christians Fall

> Chapter 18.4: true believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted, as by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit, by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light. Yet they are never destitute of the seed of God and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by which in the meantime they are preserved from utter despair.

Neglect here is neglect of the foundation. We have stopped proclaiming Christ for you. If we are not feeding assurance with Christ, disobedience comes out, and it wounds the conscience. Many Christians have been there. They start to wonder if they are even his. The confession says they are never destitute of the seed of God and the life of faith, because they were never saved or sanctified by their works. The Spirit preserves them from utter despair.

> Chapter 5.5, on providence: the most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled, and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends. So that whatsoever befalls any of his elect is by his appointment, for his glory, and their good.

Oftentimes. The framers did not treat this as rare. He is talking about his own children, his elect. They are not on trial while we wait to see how the story ends. God may let a saint feel the power of the flesh so that he will depend on Christ more closely.

> Chapter 17.1: those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, from which he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality. He is the one nourishing faith in them. If we are not obeying, the heart and mind have turned from what he is doing, and the fruit of assurance is not showing.
> 
> Chapter 17.3: though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, have their graces and comforts impaired, their hearts hardened, their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.

That is what unholiness costs. Hard heart. Wounded conscience. Scandal. Temporal judgment. Notice where the paragraph lives. Perseverance of the saints. Even there, they are renewed in repentance and preserved through faith in Christ. Not through a louder sermon on fear of the law.

The law still tells them what they should be doing. They know they are not doing it. How do they get back? Look to Christ. Turning your mind off of Jesus is how you turn toward sin. That is why we proclaim Christ and all his benefits, week in and week out.

## Do not be Ashamed of this Gospel

I think we have taken the supernatural out of the gospel and put the power back in the flesh. The proclaimed message, believed, is the power of God unto salvation for the entire person. I am not ashamed of that. Satan wants the emphasis on our obedience instead of Christ's. If someone is not obeying, it is a faith issue. They have put their faith, in part, on something else. Jesus told Peter he was thinking worldly, not spiritually, right after Peter confessed him as the Christ.

> Titus 3:4-8: when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. The saying is trustworthy, and I wants you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

He does not even say "for your assurance." He says they are profitable for people. That is the confession's list in 16.2.

> Galatians 3:3: having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? What changes you is not a louder command to do. What changes you is what you are believing, and that empowers you to do.
> 
> Romans 1:16: I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.

We need to encourage people to obey. The great commandments are to love God and love your neighbor. 1 John tells you how that love works: we love because he first loved us. You cannot remove the order. God establishes his life in you. The fruit and evidence is that you love God and love others. Obedience is the outflow of faith, which is the outflow of assurance. The confession says good works can strengthen assurance. They are not the foundation.

Let us not emphasize one phrase in the chapter on good works and set aside the chapters on assurance and perseverance, where the focus is Christ. When Paul says examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith, he is not giving an obedience inventory. He is talking to people who were entertaining another gospel than the one he preached. 2 Peter 1:10 is still sitting after "you have forgotten that you were cleansed," and after "his divine power has granted you all things." If you look at your life and see no works, go back to where the works come from. Do not send them to effort, or to fear. The foundation is Christ's blood and righteousness, through the evidences of the Spirit in you.

I want holiness in my church. I want holiness in yours. We agree more than we disagree. Let us not be ashamed of the supernatural power of the preached gospel. The preaching of Christ to the ears of the believer assures the heart. The fruit of that assurance is obedience. That is what the text says. That is what our confession has believed for hundreds of years.

If you want more, I walk through this in \*The Bible According to Jesus\*, including a chapter that introduces law-gospel distinction. If you need a copy, tell us. We will give you one.

Original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhQjFIYWefI

Related video: \[Do you keep his commandments? - 1 John 2:4\](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtbnooVDagg).

---

### That Voice Isn't God

*Published: May 27, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/that-voice-isnt-god*

https://youtu.be/8kWd6aZAWXo

What if the voice constantly accusing you is not the voice of God? In this conversation, Jon Moffitt addresses the fear, doubt, and condemnation that many Christians quietly battle in their minds. Questions about salvation, recurring sin, and God’s love can become overwhelming and spiritually paralyzing. You will hear why constant accusation and despair are not the voice of Christ speaking truth to his people. The discussion points to the freedom and assurance that belong to those who are united to Christ. Instead of captivity to fear, the gospel offers rest for weary consciences.

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### Why You Don't Feel Saved

*Published: March 30, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/why-you-dont-feel-saved*
*Tags: assurance of salvation, Rest, Weary*

Come to me all who are weary and I will give you…

What is it that Jesus will give you? What does it mean to come to Him? Who is He talking to? And how do you know if you came to Him properly?

For many, this does not feel simple. It feels like a test you might fail. A door you might miss. A standard you are never quite sure you have met.

But it was never meant to be an impossible maze. It is no maze at all. It’s the most narrow road you could possibly walk _(Matthew 7:14)_. There is only enough room for your feet to be pointed in one direction, Jesus Christ.

And yet, that road is impossible to walk.

No one has ever walked it successfully _(Romans 3:10–12)_. Jesus Himself said there are few who find it _(Matthew 7:14)_. Why? Because you must be able to walk in order to find it.

So which is it?

Is the way simple, or is it impossible?

This is where everything begins to break down.

Because when we miss the metaphors our King is using, we turn His invitation into a burden He never gave.

In the modern error of revivalist preaching, the image of Christ becomes a hardened, angry taskmaster. His eyes burn. His voice thunders. His hands feel like steel. To follow Him requires abandoning everything, picking up your cross, cutting off sin at any cost, and standing firm against every scheme of the enemy.

There is no room for weakness in His kingdom. Only those who finish the course, who remain faithful to the very end, who never give in, not even for a moment.

Don’t even attempt to hold His name if you are not ready for the task at hand.

How dare you claim to be part of His kingdom with such weakness and wickedness?

And if you are unsure of your place within His kingdom, there is no shortage of voices ready to help you doubt your standing. They will not leave you there in your unworthy state. They will give you a system. A path. A way to fix what is broken. They will point to examples of sacrifice, discipline, and devotion, and if you listen carefully enough, you might be able to prove your way into the kingdom.

A good, steady dose of daily self-examination will keep you focused.

And so you measure.

As I write this, I look up and see my son in the hallway attempting to measure himself against the board where all of my other children’s heights are marked. He holds his hand above his head and tries to turn around and see if he has grown.

This is how most Christians are taught to see their faith.

They are given a system.  
A scale.  
A list of markers.

Assurance comes once you reach certain points.  
And disappears the moment you fall behind.

And you can feel it.

The pressure in your chest.  
The weight in your mind.  
The quiet fear that maybe… you don’t measure up.

## **Finally Finding Rest**

Coming to Him was meant to provide rest.

But rest from what?

Until you answer that question, you will misunderstand everything Jesus is saying. Because once you see it, you begin to realize that coming to Jesus does not require strength. It requires the faith of a child _(Matthew 18:3)_.

In Matthew 11, Jesus is not speaking into a vacuum. He is speaking to people who have been crushed under religious leadership. Burdens had been placed on them, not by God, but by men, requiring obedience, performance, and relentless effort just to feel accepted.

And Jesus responds:

_“I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;_ 
_yes, Father, for such was your gracious will._ 
_All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him._ 
_Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:25–28)_

Who understands Christ?

Not the wise.  
Not the strong.  
Not the religiously accomplished.

Children.

Those with childlike faith, simple, dependent, with their eyes fixed entirely on the God of the universe. The Son has not revealed Himself to the proud or the self-sufficient, but to the weak, the needy, those who know they cannot carry themselves.

And so Jesus holds out His hand and says, Come to Me.

You can be set free from this burden they have placed on you, a weight no one can bear _(Acts 15:10)_.

They place weight on your shoulders.  
I lift it off.

They demand performance.  
I give you rest.

They measure your worth.  
I give you mine.

They crush you under expectation.  
I am gentle and lowly in heart _(Matthew 11:29)_.

Their path leads to exhaustion.  
My path leads to life.

## **Who can be saved?**

After the rich man walks away grieving, the disciples are shaken. This was not a rebellious man or someone openly opposed to God. This was a disciplined, moral, and religious man. He had done what most people assume is required. And yet, he still walked away empty. That is what unsettles them. If someone like that cannot make it, then the question is unavoidable and deeply personal: “Who then can be saved?” _(Matthew 19:25)_

Jesus does not soften the moment. He does not adjust the standard or offer them a more attainable path. He does not give them steps to improve or a system to follow. Instead, He gives them the truth that cuts against every instinct we have: “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” _(Matthew 19:26)_ He does not say it is difficult. He says it is impossible. Not unlikely. Not rare. Impossible.

That is the part we resist. We want salvation to be within reach, something that can be obtained with enough sincerity, discipline, or effort. But Jesus removes that entirely. There is nothing in you that can produce it, nothing in you that can secure it, and nothing in you that can sustain it. Every attempt to achieve it in your own strength will end the same way it did for that rich man, with sorrow, exposure, and the realization that you cannot do what is required.

That is exactly the point Jesus is making. Your salvation is not possible in your hands. It never was. That is why the King calls you to come to Him, not to assist Him, not to contribute something He lacks, and not to complete what He started, but simply to come. Because He Himself is your salvation _(1 Corinthians 1:30)_.

You cannot find it in your own strength because it is not possible to do so. And until that truth settles in, until it strips away every last bit of confidence in yourself, you will continue trying to accomplish what Jesus has already declared cannot be done. But when you finally see it, when you stop looking to yourself and look to Him, the call to come is no longer confusing. It is the only hope left.

## **How do I know I have faith?**

That question is often asked with a kind of quiet panic, as if the answer must be found by looking deeper within yourself. But asking, “How do I know I have faith?” is like asking, “How do I know I am alive?” You do not determine life by staring at yourself long enough. You recognize it by what is plainly true.

First, you see your need to be rescued from death _(Romans 3:23)_. You are no longer pretending you are fine. You are no longer comparing yourself to others or excusing what is broken. You see it clearly. You know you cannot fix it. Second, you see that Christ is your only hope _(Acts 4:12)_. Not one option among many. Not a helpful addition. The only hope. There is no plan B, no second option, no combination of Christ and your effort working together.

This is why Peter’s words are so simple and so powerful: “You have the words of eternal life” _(John 6:68)_. He is not analyzing his faith. He is not measuring its strength. He is not looking inward. He is looking at Christ and saying, There is nowhere else to go.

The Reformers used the phrase _extra nos_, outside of us. Salvation does not come from within you. It is not produced by your sincerity, your experience, or the intensity of your belief. You are not looking at your faith to save you. You are looking to Christ. Faith is simply the act of trusting Him.

That is why faith is not a feeling, not an experience, and not an emotional breakthrough. It does not depend on how strong it feels in the moment. If you were about to slip beneath the water and I threw you a rope, you would not sit there analyzing whether your trust was pure enough or strong enough. You would grab it.

That is the call of the gospel: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” _(Acts 16:31)_. Not believe in your believing. Not confirm your sincerity. Believe in Him.

## **What is this burden Jesus speaks of?**

It is not the burden of maintaining or proving your salvation. It is the burden of belonging to Him. That is a very different kind of weight. Jesus is not placing you under a system you must uphold to remain accepted. He is calling you into a life where you are united to Him, and because of that, you will experience what He experienced.

He tells us plainly, “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you” _(John 15:18)_. This should not surprise us, because “the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” _(1 John 5:19)_, and “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers” _(2 Corinthians 4:4)_. The hostility you feel is not random. It is not merely circumstantial. It is the natural response of a world in rebellion against its Creator.

Satan hates everything about his Maker. He cannot overthrow Him, so he wages war against those who belong to Him. If he can cause the children of God to doubt the Father, to question their standing, to turn inward and begin measuring themselves, he has already done great damage. But even beyond that, there is open resistance. Rejection. Pressure. Suffering.

This is the burden Jesus speaks of.

Not earning your place.  
Not maintaining your status.  
But carrying the reality that you now belong to a King the world rejects.

That is why Paul writes, “We do not wrestle against flesh and blood…” _(Ephesians 6:12)_. The battle is real, and it is spiritual. And yet, in the middle of that battle, you are not left wondering where you stand. That is why he also says, “Nothing… will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” _(Romans 8:38–39)_.

The suffering is real, but so is your security.

You may be opposed, but you are not abandoned.  
You may be pressed, but you are not rejected.

Because your belonging to Christ was never secured by your strength.

“We love because he first loved us” _(1 John 4:19)_.  
“He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion” _(Philippians 1:6)_.  
“I give them eternal life, and they will never perish” _(John 10:28)_.

So how do we know we belong to the King?

Faith.

Do you trust Him?

That trust is not something you produced. Jesus says no one comes unless the Father draws him _(John 6:44)_. If you find yourself trusting Christ, even in the middle of weakness, even in the middle of suffering, that is evidence that you belong to Him.

And that is why it feels so simple.

Because it is.

Jesus called it childlike faith, not because it is fragile, but because it rests entirely on Him

## **What about obedience?**

Do you love the King?

The One who cares for your soul _(1 Peter 5:7)_, who promises to bring you safely home _(John 14:3)_, who intercedes for you even now _(Romans 8:34)_, and who sympathizes with your weakness _(Hebrews 4:15)_. Not distant. Not frustrated. Not waiting for you to improve. That King.

Do you want to serve Him?

Of course you do.

Scripture tells us why: “We love because he first loved us” _(1 John 4:19)_. Your obedience does not create that love. It flows from it. It is the response of a heart that has been rescued, not the condition for being accepted.

Peter even explains what happens when obedience feels weak or absent. It is not that you have lost your standing, but that “he has forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins” _(2 Peter 1:9)_. The issue is not that grace has failed you. It is that you have lost sight of it. You have turned your eyes away from what Christ has done and back onto yourself.

Obedience, then, is not driven by fear or the need to prove something. It flows from gratitude. We obey because we have been set free _(Romans 6:18)_, not so that we might be free. The direction matters. One crushes. The other gives life.

And even in that obedience, we are not perfect. We stumble. We fail. We fall short in ways that frustrate us and expose our weakness. But we do not run from our King. We run to Him. Again and again, we come back, not to renegotiate our standing, but to rest in what He has already secured.

That is why Paul can say, “By the grace of God I am what I am” _(1 Corinthians 15:10)_. His life, his obedience, his endurance, none of it is rooted in his own strength. And that is why he can also say, “I can do all things through him who strengthens me” _(Philippians 4:13)_. The power does not come from within. It flows from Christ.

Obedience is real. It matters. It grows. But it is never the foundation.

Christ is.

## **Don’t be distracted by performance**

Be excited about who Christ is, not what you are doing for Him.

“Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith” _(Hebrews 12:2)_. That is the direction of the Christian life. Not inward, constantly evaluating your progress, but outward, fixed on Christ. Because the truth is, you will never perform to a level that satisfies your conscience. There will always be something lacking, something unfinished, something that reminds you of your weakness.

That is why the Christian life is a life of repentance. Not a one-time event, but a continual returning. We keep coming back, again and again, not to earn forgiveness, but because we already have it. And He keeps cleansing. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us” _(1 John 1:9)_. This is the rhythm of grace until the day we are made new _(Revelation 21:5)_.

Joy does not come from how well you perform. It never has. It comes from how fully you have been saved. From knowing that what Christ has accomplished for you is complete, secure, and unchanging. The more your eyes are fixed on that reality, the more rest and freedom you will experience.

So keep your eyes on the gospel. Let Christ fuel your life, not your obedience. Obedience will come, and it will matter, but it is not the source of your life. It is the fruit of it. It is a gift that overflows to others, not a measurement that defines you.

Christ is your life.

So look to Him.

You don’t feel saved because you keep looking at yourself.

The Bible doesn’t point you there. Jesus doesn’t point you there.

[_The Bible According to Jesus_](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus "The Bible According to Jesus") will help you finally see why.

---

### Does the Bible Require Head Coverings?

*Published: February 18, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/does-the-bible-require-head-coverings*

Few passages create as much confusion and tension as 1 Corinthians 11\. If we are honest, many pastors would prefer to skip it. Some treat it as purely cultural. Others insist it is universally binding. In recent years, we have seen a renewed push in some conservative circles to require head coverings in corporate worship. At the same time, other churches dismiss the entire passage as a relic of ancient customs.

So what are we to do with it?

As pastors who care about rightly dividing the Word of truth, we need to slow down, read carefully, and let Scripture interpret Scripture. We also need to remember the difference between law and gospel. When secondary matters are elevated to primary ones, consciences are bound where Christ has given freedom.

Let us walk through this carefully.

## The Passage in Question

In 1 Corinthians 11:2–16, Paul speaks about headship, authority, prayer, prophecy, long hair, head coverings, and even angels. It is one of the more difficult sections in the New Testament.

Paul writes:

* The head of every man is Christ.
* The head of a wife is her husband.
* The head of Christ is God.
* A man dishonors his head if he covers it while praying.
* A woman dishonors her head if she does not cover it.
* Long hair is a disgrace for a man.
* A woman’s hair is her glory.
* A wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels.

That is a lot to process. And unlike other doctrines Paul teaches repeatedly across multiple letters, this particular set of instructions appears only here.

So we have to ask: what is Paul doing?

## Start With the Broader Context

Before we isolate these verses, we need to zoom out.

First Corinthians is not a celebratory letter. Paul is correcting a troubled church. Division, lawsuits, sexual immorality, misuse of spiritual gifts, chaos at the Lord’s Table. The letter is filled with rebuke.

He confronts factionalism in chapter 1\. He addresses sexual immorality in chapter 5\. He rebukes lawsuits among believers in chapter 6\. He corrects abuses of marriage and singleness in chapter 7\. He deals with idolatry and food sacrificed to idols in chapters 8–10\. Immediately after this head covering section, he rebukes them for corrupting the Lord’s Supper.

In other words, Paul is not writing to a healthy church that is excelling in obedience. He is correcting a church obsessed with externals while neglecting weightier matters.

That context matters.

## Paul and the Nazarite Vow

There is another detail that deserves attention.

In Acts 18:18, Luke tells us that after leaving Corinth, Paul cut his hair because he was under a vow. The most likely explanation is that he had taken a Nazarite vow, which included not cutting one’s hair.

Now consider this.

In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul says that long hair is a disgrace for a man. Yet Luke tells us that Paul himself had long hair during his time in Corinth.

The Corinthians knew what Paul looked like. They had seen him. They had heard him preach. They knew whether his hair was long or short.

So how do we reconcile that?

Either Paul is contradicting himself, or something more nuanced is happening in this passage.

## The Possibility of Sarcasm

We know from the rest of the letter that Paul is capable of biting irony and sharp rhetoric.

In 1 Corinthians 4, he mocks their self-exaltation. In Galatians 5, he makes a pointed remark about false teachers emasculating themselves. He exposes absurdity by pushing it to its logical conclusion.

Is it possible that 1 Corinthians 11 contains elements of sarcasm?

If we read the passage straight through without considering tone, it can sound like Paul is issuing a universal dress code. But when we read it in light of the entire letter and in light of Paul’s own actions, it begins to look different.

The Corinthians were deeply concerned with outward appearances. They were fascinated with status, image, and cultural respectability. Corinthian men prided themselves on certain masculine norms. Roman men often covered their heads in worship. Cultural practices varied.

What if the Corinthians had elevated a cultural expression into a spiritual litmus test?

What if they had taken a secondary matter and treated it as central?

That would fit the pattern of the rest of the letter.

## The Theological Anchor Remains

There are parts of this passage that are not sarcastic and should not be treated lightly.

Paul affirms:

* Christ is the head of man.
* The husband is the head of the wife.
* God is the head of Christ.
* Creation order matters.

Those truths are taught elsewhere in Scripture. Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 reinforce them. Headship and ordered relationships within marriage and the church are not cultural inventions. They are rooted in creation.

But here is the key: those theological truths do not automatically require a specific garment in every culture.

Paul grounds his argument in theology. The Corinthians appear to have taken that grounding and used it to police external appearances while ignoring deeper sins.

## Angels and Cultural Anxiety

The reference to angels has puzzled interpreters for centuries.

Some argue it refers to heavenly beings observing worship. Others say it refers to human messengers. Still others suggest that it reflects Corinthian superstition about spiritual beings.

The text does not provide a detailed explanation. That alone should make us cautious about building rigid requirements on a single obscure phrase.

When a passage is unclear, we interpret it in light of what is clear elsewhere in Scripture.

## Law, Gospel, and Christian Liberty

At the heart of this discussion is a pastoral concern.

When secondary matters become tests of orthodoxy, consciences are burdened. When cultural expressions are elevated to divine mandates, the church fractures.

We must distinguish between moral law that reflects God’s character and cultural practices that may express those truths differently across time and place.

Headship in marriage is not optional. Order in corporate worship matters. Modesty is required of all believers.

But a particular style of head covering, in a particular first-century context, does not carry the same weight as the gospel itself.

When Paul encounters churches that turn secondary issues into primary ones, he does not respond gently. He exposes the absurdity. He defends the gospel. He refuses to let external markers overshadow Christ crucified.

## So Does the Bible Require Head Coverings?

If someone chooses to wear a head covering as a matter of conscience, we have no quarrel with that. Christian liberty allows for such decisions.

But to bind the entire church to a specific garment as a universal requirement is another matter. That goes beyond what the rest of Scripture clearly teaches.

The enduring principles in 1 Corinthians 11 are:

* Christ is our ultimate head.
* Marriage reflects ordered authority.
* Worship should honor God, not cultural pride.
* External appearance must never eclipse internal faith.

When we read the passage in context, the weight shifts away from fabric and toward fidelity to Christ.

And that is where our focus must remain.

The church’s unity does not rest on veils or hairstyles. It rests on the finished work of Jesus Christ, our true covering, our righteousness, and our peace.

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Does the Bible Require Head Coverings? (w/ Doug Van Dorn)](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/does-the-bible-require-head-coverings-w-doug-van-dorn)

---

### What Does “Examine Yourself” Actually Mean?

*Published: February 11, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/what-does-examine-yourself-actually-mean*

We hear the phrase “examine yourself” quoted often in Christian circles. For many believers, those words carry weight, fear, and exhaustion. They are used to question assurance, to measure spiritual performance, and to keep people on a constant treadmill of introspection.

This passage sits at the center of why we care so deeply about context, about the clarity of the gospel, and about handling the law rightly. When Scripture is removed from its setting, it can wound consciences in ways God never intended. When Scripture is read carefully, it brings freedom, rest, and confidence in Christ.

So let us slow down and ask a simple question. What does “examine yourself” actually mean in the Bible?

## Why This Question Matters So Much

There are many Christians who live with relentless self-scrutiny. Day after day, they measure themselves. They review their obedience. They compare their failures to God’s law. They compare their lives to other believers. None of that ever produces peace.

That cycle exists because certain passages are often quoted without context. One of the most common is 2 Corinthians 13:5, where Paul says, “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith.”

Those words are frequently used to call a believer’s salvation into question. They are treated like a command to inspect fruit, obedience, and progress in order to determine whether someone is truly saved.

The problem is that Paul is not doing that at all.

## Reading 2 Corinthians 13 in Context

Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 13 do not appear in isolation. He is responding to a very specific situation in the Corinthian church.

False teachers had entered the church and were challenging Paul’s authority. They questioned whether Christ truly spoke through him. They doubted the legitimacy of his apostleship and the power of his message.

Paul addresses this directly in verse 3 when he writes, “Since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me.”

That sentence frames everything that follows.

When Paul tells the Corinthians to examine themselves, he is not asking them to evaluate their obedience. He is asking them to consider how they came to faith in the first place.

They believed the gospel. They confessed Christ. They saw the power of God at work among them.

And how did that happen? It happened through Paul’s preaching.

So Paul’s point is simple and pastoral. If Christ is in you, then the gospel you received is true. If the gospel you received is true, then the messenger who brought it is legitimate.

The test Paul refers to is belief in the gospel, not moral performance. Failing the test would mean rejecting the gospel he preached. It would not mean struggling with sin or weakness.

Paul is defending his ministry, not dismantling their assurance.

## The Lord’s Supper and Self-Examination

Another passage often used in this discussion is 1 Corinthians 11, where Paul speaks about examining oneself before taking the Lord’s Supper.

Here again, context matters.

Paul is not asking believers to question whether they are Christians. He is correcting an abuse of the Lord’s Table. The Corinthian church had divided itself by status and wealth. Some were feasting. Others were going hungry. The Table had become a place of pride and exclusion.

Paul calls them to examine whether they are discerning the body rightly. The issue is unity, humility, and love within the church.

The examination is about how believers are treating one another, not about validating salvation.

## Galatians and the Call to Gentle Restoration

Galatians 6 also includes language about testing or examining oneself. Paul addresses how believers are to respond when someone is caught in sin.

His instruction is clear. Those who are walking by the Spirit are to restore the struggling believer with gentleness. They are also to watch themselves, recognizing their own vulnerability.

The examination is directed toward the one doing the restoring. It guards against pride and self-righteousness. It does not instruct the church to interrogate the salvation of the one who is struggling.

Paul explicitly acknowledges that Christians can be caught in sin. He does not assign a timeline. He does not revoke assurance. He calls for restoration through the gospel.

## Jesus and the Examination of Fruit

Jesus does speak about fruit in Matthew 7\. This passage is often used to justify constant fruit inspection of believers.

Yet the context is unmistakable. Jesus is warning about false teachers.

He says, “Beware of false prophets.” He explains that their fruit reveals who they are. The focus is on what they teach and what their teaching produces.

This passage is not about believers examining their own salvation. It is about discerning who should be trusted as a teacher. Scripture consistently places greater accountability on those who teach because they shape the faith of others.

The fruit under examination belongs to the teacher, not the congregation.

## When Examination Truly Is Necessary

There are moments when self-examination is appropriate and necessary.

When someone openly rejects God’s truth. When someone denies what Scripture clearly calls sin. When someone insists that obedience contributes to salvation. When someone refuses repentance and embraces false teaching.

In those cases, examination is about truth. It is about whether someone is agreeing with God or replacing God’s truth with their own.

Faith saves because it rests in Christ. Works do not save. Any message that adds human performance to justification is a distortion of the gospel. Paul speaks of this with strong language in Galatians because the stakes are eternal.

That kind of examination is not about fruit counting. It is about believing the truth.

## The Real Focus of Biblical Examination

Scripture does not call us to live with our eyes turned inward at all times. That path leads to despair or pride.

Scripture calls us to look to Christ.

Are we trusting His work? Are we resting in His sufficiency? Are we believing His promises?

Faith is not the thing that saves us. Christ saves us. Faith is the evidence that we have been saved.

Weak faith does not make Christ weak. Strong storms do not sink a sufficient Savior.

The Bible consistently directs our attention away from self-rescue and toward divine rescue. Assurance grows as we know Christ better, not as we monitor ourselves more closely.

## A Word to the Weary Believer

If you feel trapped in constant self-examination, hear this clearly. Scripture does not command you to interrogate your salvation every day. It invites you to trust the One who holds you.

Look to Christ. Study His work. Rest in His promises. Receive His means of grace.

The more you examine His sufficiency, the more your heart will settle. Christ has never failed to save His people. He will not start with you.

That is what “examine yourself” means when Scripture is read the way God intended.

This article is a summary of the following episode: [What Does “Examine Yourself” Actually Mean?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-does-examine-yourself-actually-mean)

---

### The Bible's Emphasis Isn't Obedience

*Published: February 4, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-bibles-emphasis-isnt-obedience*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [The Bible's Emphasis Isn't Obedience](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-bibles-emphasis-isnt-obedience)

Modern Christianity often treats the Bible like a manual for self-improvement. People open it looking for quick answers, a verse for a problem, or a list of spiritual steps that will get life back under control. Sermons can reinforce that instinct by placing the main weight on what the believer must do.

That pattern shapes expectations. It shapes preaching. It shapes how Christians read. It also shapes why so many believers carry a constant sense of pressure and insecurity.

Obedience matters. It is commanded. It is expected. It is part of the Christian life. Yet the Bible’s primary emphasis runs deeper than commands and behavior. Scripture sets our focus on God’s work, God’s promises, and God’s redemption.

When that emphasis is lost, the Christian life becomes exhausting.

## Why Emphasis Matters

There is a difference between something being present in Scripture and something being central in Scripture.

All Scripture is profitable. Every passage belongs. Nothing is wasted. Yet Scripture does not give equal space, equal weight, or equal attention to every subject. Some themes show up with steady force from beginning to end. Those themes are meant to govern how we understand everything else.

When the church spends most of its time talking about subjects that Scripture treats as secondary, believers begin to live under the wrong priorities. They become trained to look at the Bible through the wrong lens. They read it like a dictionary or a search engine. They want a quick definition or a targeted solution.

That approach often creates confusion and disappointment. A verse pulled out of context cannot carry the weight people place on it. A command isolated from the story of redemption turns into a burden. A promise assigned to the wrong audience produces frustration.

Emphasis protects us from those mistakes. It teaches us how to read the whole Bible with clarity.

## The Bible Is Not a Theological Search Engine

Many believers were trained to use the Bible like a quick reference guide.

A problem arises. A feeling hits. A decision needs to be made. Then a verse is located, and the matter seems settled.

That approach encourages a chapter-and-verse mindset, where the presence of a reference is treated as proof of understanding. Yet a reference does not equal meaning. Words require context. Promises require context. Commands require context. The story requires context.

Scripture was not designed to function like a modern search bar. It was written to be read as a unified account of God’s redeeming work. When we treat it as a collection of disconnected answers, we miss the whole point.

## Obedience Has a Place, Yet It Is Not the Center

Many Christians assume the Bible’s main concern is obedience. That assumption shapes what people listen for in sermons and what they feel guilty about in their daily lives.

Yet when you read Scripture as a whole, you notice something.

The Bible spends a great deal more time showing what God has done than it spends listing what we must do. The story moves with God as the central actor. God creates. God covenants. God delivers. God preserves. God judges. God promises. God redeems.

Even when obedience is addressed, it usually sits inside a larger purpose. It serves the life of the people of God. It guards the unity of the church. It protects love among believers. It directs the community toward faithfulness in a cursed world.

Obedience functions within the kingdom. It does not carry the weight of securing the kingdom.

## A Simple Illustration of How Scripture Uses Obedience

A team cannot function without rules. A game cannot be played without boundaries. Everyone on the court must obey the standards that keep the game coherent. Yet the rules are not the point of the game.

The goal is the game itself. The goal is unity, coordination, shared purpose, and meaningful action together. Rules serve that goal.

Scripture presents obedience in a similar way. Obedience serves love. Obedience serves unity. Obedience protects the church. Obedience helps believers care for one another through suffering, sorrow, temptation, and weakness.

Many commands in the New Testament are directed toward life together.

Bear one another’s burdens. Forgive one another. Serve one another. Pursue gentleness, patience, meekness, and love. Consider others more significant than yourself.

Those fruits exist for the good of other people. They are meant to be consumed by the church and displayed to the world. They are not trophies for the individual believer.

## The Bible’s Primary Emphasis Is Redemption

If you want to understand the Bible’s emphasis, start by looking at the shape of the story.

Before the world was created, God set His saving purpose in motion. Scripture speaks of God choosing, promising, and preparing redemption before the foundations of the world. That means the story begins with God, not man.

Genesis opens with creation, calling, and blessing. Humanity is placed in the world as image bearers with purpose and responsibility. Then the fall arrives, and the curse enters. The world becomes a place of death, corruption, deception, and sorrow.

In that moment, Scripture introduces a promise. Redemption is coming. God will act. God will rescue. God will restore.

From that point forward, the Bible unfolds as a story of rescue.

The Old Testament reveals human depravity with painful honesty. It also reveals God’s patience, God’s covenant faithfulness, and God’s preservation of His people. The law exposes the need for deliverance. The prophets keep announcing hope. The storyline presses toward the coming Messiah.

The New Testament arrives with the fulfillment.

Christ comes as the redeemer. Christ comes as the lamb. Christ comes as the king. Christ comes to deliver His people from sin, death, and the kingdom of darkness. Christ comes to give rest to the weary.

That is the Bible’s center of gravity.

## The Bible Also Emphasizes the Curse and the Need for Rescue

Scripture refuses to pretend that this world is safe or stable. It repeatedly describes a creation that groans, bodies that decay, and lives marked by suffering.

The Bible also speaks with clarity about spiritual evil. The kingdom of darkness is real. Deception is real. Temptation is real. The need for liberation is real.

When believers lose sight of this, they start to treat Christianity like a program for building a better life. That view cannot survive contact with real grief, real loss, real betrayal, real illness, or real suffering.

Scripture trains the believer to live with a different framework.

You live under a curse. You will face sorrow. You will face weakness. You will face opposition. You will also have hope, because Christ has acted and Christ will return.

That hope does not rest on self-rescue. It rests on a redeemer.

## Why American Christianity Drifts Toward Obedience

A culture obsessed with performance will always drift toward behavior management. A religious culture shaped by revivals and moral campaigns will naturally build its identity around visible obedience.

That creates a man-centered version of the faith where everything becomes “I did.”

I prayed. I walked forward. I got baptized. I disciplined myself. I changed myself. I proved myself.

Yet Scripture repeatedly emphasizes God’s initiative.

He began the good work. He redeemed His people. He clothed them in righteousness. He sustains them by His power. He brings them into glory.

When that emphasis returns, the church breathes again. Rest returns. Joy returns. Gratitude returns. Obedience becomes fruit instead of a burden.

## What This Means for Reading the Bible

If you open the Bible mainly asking, “What must I do today?” you will eventually feel crushed.

If you open the Bible asking, “What has God done? What is God doing? What has God promised in Christ?” you will start to see the story as it was meant to be seen.

You will learn to read the Bible as a unified message of redemption.

You will start to notice how often Scripture highlights God’s action, God’s faithfulness, God’s rescue, and God’s power.

You will also start to understand why so many people struggle to read Scripture. They are looking in the wrong place for the wrong kind of emphasis.

## A Word to the Weary

If you are tired of sermons that load you down, you are not alone.

Scripture does call you to obey. It also calls you to rest. It calls you to look to Christ. It calls you to trust the one who has already done what you could never do.

You do not prove yourself to God. You do not secure your place by performance. You live by faith in a redeemer.

The Bible’s emphasis is Christ for sinners, Christ for sufferers, and Christ for the church.

When that becomes the emphasis of your reading, the Word becomes a joy again.

---

### Why Christians Struggle to Read the Bible

*Published: January 28, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/why-christians-struggle-to-read-the-bible-1*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Why Christians Struggle to Read the Bible](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/why-christians-struggle-to-read-the-bible)

Many Christians want to read the Bible. They believe they should. They even start strong for a week or two. Then the momentum fades, and the guilt starts to creep in.

That pattern is common, and it rarely comes from laziness. Most of the time, people struggle with Bible reading because they have been handed the wrong expectations, the wrong tools, and the wrong reasons.

This article is meant to put words to that struggle and to offer a path forward. A path shaped by years of pastoral ministry, years of conversations with believers around the world, and years of watching what happens when the Bible becomes a burden instead of a source of rest.

## The Bible Feels Hard Because Many of Us Were Taught to Read It Wrong

A lot of Christians grew up hearing that the Bible is powerful and beneficial. Then they opened it and experienced something else.

Confusion. Condemnation. Frustration. A sense that the whole thing was a never-ending list of demands.

When the Bible feels like that, reading it becomes emotionally expensive. You can tell yourself it matters, yet your heart expects another round of shame. In that moment, distraction makes sense. Avoidance makes sense. Busyness becomes a convenient cover.

If you are thinking, I should want this more, you are not alone. Many people were trained to approach Scripture as a performance metric. Read more. Try harder. Do better. Then maybe life will finally straighten out.

That approach does not produce joyful reading. It produces fear, pride, or despair.

## Practical Barriers Usually Reveal a Deeper Problem

People often say, “I am too busy.”

Sometimes that is true. Life can be hectic. Schedules can be brutal.

Yet for most people, the deeper issue is that Bible reading feels unhelpful. If opening the Bible leaves you confused or crushed, your brain will treat it like a chore. You will find time for what feels life-giving, and you will avoid what feels like punishment.

Many believers read Scripture for years, driven by guilt, shame, or fear. They hoped Bible reading would keep them from sinning. They hoped it would keep them out of trouble. They hoped it would earn a sense of safety.

That kind of pressure does not lead to love. It leads to burnout.

## Emotional Barriers Can Make Scripture Feel Discouraging

The Bible can be hard to open when your heart is heavy.

Discouragement makes you want to numb out. Stress makes you want to escape. When you feel shot emotionally, reading feels like work.

Some believers also carry anger toward God or deep frustration with Him. That often comes after loss, betrayal, illness, or unanswered prayers. In those moments, people can feel like Scripture is full of words that do not match their lived experience.

Grief can make you avoid the Bible even when you know you need it.

If someone has handed you verses like weapons, that pain cuts deeper. You begin to associate the Bible with cold answers instead of real comfort. You learn how to play the church game outwardly while quietly feeling lost inwardly.

That is one reason many people stop reading. It is not because the Bible lacks comfort. It is because they do not know how to find it when they are hurting.

## Misinformation and Misuse of Scripture Can Destroy Confidence

One of the enemy’s most effective strategies is misinformation.

Scripture can be quoted in a way that sounds faithful while steering people away from hope. Satan tried this with Jesus. He quoted Scripture and twisted its meaning.

That still happens. Passages get lifted out of context. Promises get assigned to people who were never meant to receive them in that way. Commands get weaponized. The Bible becomes a club.

When that happens, the book meant to strengthen faith can end up weakening faith.

It leaves believers thinking, “If this is what the Bible is, I cannot survive under it.”

The real issue is not Scripture. The real issue is mishandling Scripture.

## Many Christians Do Not Know Where to Start

Plenty of people begin their reading plans in Genesis because it is the first book. Then they hit sections that feel confusing, strange, or overwhelming.

Genesis is rich and beautiful, and it also carries layers that many modern readers do not recognize. Genre, structure, and purpose matter. Moses wrote to a particular people in a particular moment. The story is not random. It is redemption-shaped.

That is why many believers need a basic map before they need a long reading plan.

They need to know what they are looking for. They need to know how the pieces connect. They need tools that help them find the thread of the story.

## Tools Matter Because the Treasure Is Worth Digging For

A tool can be simple and still uncover something priceless.

A shovel is simple. A child can use it. Yet a shovel can unearth treasure.

Bible reading works in a similar way. You do not need a seminary degree to learn helpful tools. You need basic categories that guide your attention.

Context. Continuity. Covenants. Understanding the difference between law and gospel. How the New Testament teaches you to understand the Old Testament. How the whole story moves toward Christ.

Those tools help you know where to dig and what you are digging for.

Without tools, you can read for years and still feel lost.  
With tools, you can read and actually see what God is doing.

## Reading Alone Can Make the Struggle Worse

Modern Christianity often treats Bible reading as a private project.

That mindset leaves many believers isolated and defeated. It also ignores how communal Scripture has always been.

For most of church history, individual Christians did not own a personal Bible. The Word was heard, taught, discussed, sung, and shared in the life of the gathered church. That communal pattern shaped the way Christians learned to think, believe, and grow.

Even now, many people need a safe place to ask questions. They need fellow believers who can help them think through hard passages. They need pastors and elders who teach faithfully. They need friends who can talk through what they are reading.

The Word is meant to be a shared meal, not a solitary burden.

## Habits Help, Yet Habits Cannot Heal a Wrong View of Scripture

Routine is valuable. Consistency is good. It helps to build habits.

Yet habits cannot fix a heart that associates the Bible with condemnation. A schedule will not overcome confusion. A checklist will not restore joy.

When someone sees the Bible as a place to meet Christ and to receive help, they start returning to it for the same reason they return to food. They need it. They want it. They are nourished by it.

That shift changes everything.

## A Better Goal Than Finishing a Plan

Many Christians approach Bible reading hoping to earn God’s approval or to prove they are serious.

That mentality always leads back to pressure.

Scripture calls believers to walk by faith. It calls them to look to Jesus as the author and finisher of faith. It teaches that divine power supplies what we need for life and godliness.

That changes how you open the Bible.

You open it to see Christ. You open it to be strengthened. You open it to be comforted. You open it to be equipped to love others in a world filled with confusion.

The Bible is not a scoreboard. It is a living word that tears down strongholds and brings real hope.

## A Pastoral Word to the Wounded

Some listeners have stopped going to church because of real abuse and real harm. That pain is not small.

Yet isolation is never the cure. The enemy loves to keep wounded people away from the place where God restores them through the Word rightly taught and rightly applied.

If you have been hurt, I am sorry. I mean that. I also pray God gives you strength to find a church that will handle Scripture with care, with patience, and with mercy.

You deserve better than what you received.

## The Bible Is for the Weary

If you feel close to giving up, Scripture is for you.

It tells the truth about suffering. It tells the truth about hope beyond the grave. It tells the truth about mercy for sinners. It tells the truth about grace for the weak.

The Word of God is not meant to crush you. It is meant to lead you to rest, to wisdom, and to a steady confidence in Christ.

If you have struggled to read the Bible, you are not disqualified. You are not alone. You may simply need better tools, better guidance, and a better view of what the Bible is doing.

May God use His Word to restore your joy and strengthen your faith.

If you are interested in learning more about how to read the Bible as Jesus does, we encourage you to check out [_The Bible According to Jesus_](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus)

---

### Losing the War on Grace

*Published: January 21, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/losing-the-war-on-grace*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Losing the War on Grace](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/losing-the-war-on-grace)

There is a reason this topic has been pressing on me. It feels like we have lost something essential in the life of the church. Not a minor preference. Not a style issue. Something central to spiritual survival.

We have lost the emphasis of grace. And when grace loses its place, the church loses her strength.

The war is not over. Christ has already won. Yet many Christians are living as if they have been left to fight on their own. They wake up under weight, under pressure, under shame, under fear. They assume the answer has to be more effort, more intensity, more self-management, more personal grit. They try to muscle their way through temptation, suffering, discouragement, and doubt.

Then they wonder why they feel exhausted.

## How We Drifted into a Physical Christianity

If you step back and look at the modern church, a pattern shows up. The energy often goes toward what can be seen and measured.

Moralism becomes the engine. Practical living becomes the selling point. Sermons become coaching sessions. The goal becomes a better marriage, better parenting, better habits, better influence, better outcomes.

Politics gets woven in as if power can be secured by strategy. Entertainment becomes a substitute for reverence. Some churches motivate through inspiration. Some motivate through fear. In both cases, the focus is usually the same.

What do you need to do next?

That kind of Christianity feels natural in our time because we live in a world that has trained us to trust what we can see. We measure life with physical metrics. We assess our spiritual condition through external evidence. We treat the church like a system that produces results, and we treat grace like a word we use after failure.

Then the gospel becomes a tool for getting started rather than the power that sustains us every day.

## The Supernatural Nature of the Christian Life

Scripture refuses to let us reduce faith to the visible realm.

Peter speaks of divine power. The writer of Hebrews describes the Word of God as living and active, cutting down to the marrow. Paul teaches that spiritual warfare is real, organized, and relentless.

Ephesians 6 does not describe a conflict that can be solved by human strength. Galatians 3 exposes the insanity of trying to live by the flesh after beginning by the Spirit.

Paul uses a startling word in Galatians. He says they were bewitched. That is not casual language. He is describing spiritual deception. He is describing demonic strategy.

If the enemy can convince Christians that the Christian life runs on effort, then he has cut them off from the true source of power.

## Losing Grace Means Losing Strength

Satan understands what many believers forget. Grace is not a soft religious idea. Grace is the power of Christ at work for His people.

That is why the enemy does not always fight by pushing obvious wickedness. He often fights by shifting emphasis. He can keep the church busy with good things while starving her of the one thing she cannot live without.

Doctrine matters, yet doctrine without the living application of Christ can become cold performance. Justice matters, yet justice without grace can turn into self-righteousness. Service matters, yet service without grace can turn into burnout. Even spiritual disciplines can turn into a ladder that people climb to feel safe.

If the message becomes Christ saves you, then you sustain you, the church has embraced a lie.

That lie produces either pride or despair.

Pride grows in the ones who think they are doing well. Despair grows in the ones who know they are not.

Both outcomes silence joy, crush assurance, and drain love.

## Shepherding by Doubt is Cruel

One of the most destructive habits in parts of the conservative church is the constant practice of calling people’s salvation into question as a routine method of motivation.

That kind of shepherding does not restore bruised reeds. It snaps them.

Romans 8 speaks with clarity. Nothing can separate believers from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Christ holds His people. None can take them out of His hand. The gospel gives rest to the weak and weary.

That does not remove church discipline. God disciplines His children because He loves them. The church corrects sin to protect the flock and call wanderers back. Yet a steady diet of suspicion and fear does not produce holiness. It produces hiding.

Scripture calls for restoration with gentleness. Galatians 6 makes that plain. People caught in sin need a church that knows how to apply Christ to them with humility, patience, and hope.

Grace teaches us to renounce ungodliness. Grace strengthens the heart. Grace sustains suffering saints. Grace trains believers to live in a world that is still groaning.

Fear can create outward conformity for a season. Grace creates real spiritual fruit.

## The Battlefield is the Pulpit and the Pew

Every Sunday is a battlefield.

The enemy wants pastors to rely on personality, cleverness, and technique. He wants sermons that entertain without feeding. He wants services that distract rather than proclaim. He wants churches that treat the Lord’s Table like an optional extra instead of a means of Christ’s care.

If grace is removed from the church, people will still gather. They will still sing. They will still volunteer. They will still look busy.

They will not be nourished.

The enemy also wants believers isolated from the place where grace is ordinarily delivered through Word, prayer, fellowship, and the gathered worship of the church. Isolation makes people vulnerable. Peter warns about this. Sober-minded vigilance is not a personality trait. It is a posture of war.

A Christian who lives on self-reliance will eventually collapse under the weight of life in a cursed world.

## The Curse is Real, and So is the Lie

We live under Genesis 3\. Bodies decay. Relationships fracture. Suffering lands on the just and the unjust. The world groans. Our bodies groan. The church groans. Scripture does not hide that.

Yet the enemy sells a story that sounds hopeful. Enough effort, enough time, enough money, enough control, and you can arrive.

That is the arrival fallacy. Next year will finally be the year. This new plan will finally fix it. This new leader will finally bring peace. This new discipline will finally make you secure.

The Bible tells us to set our minds on things above because the lasting hope is not found here. The King is coming. When He comes, He will wipe every tear and make all things new.

Until then, His grace is sufficient.

## Grace Makes the Weak Effective

One of the most freeing truths for weary Christians is this. Grace does not require physical strength to accomplish spiritual good.

Someone flat on their back can stand in the strength of the Lord. Someone dying can pray with power. Someone exhausted can still love with real love because Christ supplies what they lack.

Grace does not depend on the body’s abilities. Grace depends on Christ’s power.

That means you are not useless. You are not sidelined. You are not forgotten.

If Christ is in you, your life has purpose in the kingdom. Even one day lived by faith matters more than a lifetime spent chasing smaller dreams.

## Press Into the War with the Right Weapon

We have to recover the category of spiritual warfare. Not as entertainment. Not as fear theater. Not as obsession. As realism.

The enemy fights with lies. Christ answers with grace.

Ephesians 6 says the war is not against flesh and blood. The armor is not self-discipline as a savior. The armor is Christ applied through the means He has given.

That is why the church must keep singing grace, preaching grace, praying grace, and placing grace before the eyes of the saints week after week. We drain constantly. We get attacked constantly. We forget constantly.

So we gather, not to prove our worth, but to receive what we cannot produce.

## A Closing Word for the Weary

If you are exhausted, you need grace. If you are ashamed, you need grace. If you are stuck in sin, you need grace. If you feel numb, you need grace. If you feel afraid, you need grace.

Grace is not God shrugging at sin. Grace is the Father giving you Christ again and again, forgiving you, sustaining you, strengthening you, and holding you fast.

As long as you are breathing, the grace of God in Jesus Christ is sufficient for you.

Do not let the enemy steal the emphasis. Do not let him replace Christ with your own strength. Come back to the gospel. Come back to the gathered church. Come back to the means of grace.

Christ will carry you through.

---

### Grace as Divine Power?

*Published: January 14, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/grace-as-divine-power*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Grace as Divine Power?](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/grace-as-divine-power)

Grace is one of the most used words in the Christian vocabulary. It gets printed on mugs, stitched onto pillows, and spoken in church conversations with ease. Yet many believers have lost what the New Testament means when it uses the word. Grace has been reduced to a past event, a signed verdict, a transaction that settles a record, and then gets filed away.

Scripture speaks about grace with far more weight than that. Grace is forgiveness, and grace is also power. Grace brings salvation, and grace strengthens, trains, restores, and sustains.

That is why the question matters: Is grace divine power?

## What Does Scripture Emphasize?

The Bible contains law, history, poetry, wisdom, and narrative. Yet Scripture emphasizes a central message with relentless clarity. The promised Messiah has come. He has acted for his people. He has secured salvation and continues to work in them.

The word Christ means Messiah. Scripture is not a biography meant to satisfy curiosity. It is a proclamation about what the Messiah is for us.

Savior. Redeemer. King. Prophet. Priest.

When that center is clear, the message of grace becomes more than a theological label. It becomes the living, active way Christ deals with sinners and keeps them.

## Why Grace Feels So Small Today

Modern Christianity often treats grace as the moment God forgives you, then hands you a new assignment. Grace becomes the entrance. Then effort becomes the engine.

Many believers live as if grace cleans the record, while power is something they must generate through discipline, routines, and determination. That mindset quietly trains us to view grace as paperwork rather than strength.

Scripture treats grace as an ongoing gift with ongoing effect. Grace is not only the word that explains what happened to us. Grace is the word that explains how Christ sustains us.

## Paul and the Meaning of “Sufficient”

One of the clearest places to see this is 2 Corinthians 12\. Paul describes a persistent affliction and an attack that will not let up. He pleads for relief. Christ answers him.

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” (2 Corinthians 12:9)

That sentence does not treat grace as a sentimental comfort. It treats grace as the form Christ’s power takes in the life of the believer. Grace is not presented as a soft message meant to calm Paul down. Grace is presented as strength that meets him in weakness.

Two details matter.

First, grace does not remove the weakness. Paul remains weak.

Second, grace supplies the power to endure. Paul learns to boast in weakness because Christ’s power rests on him through grace.

Grace is sufficiency. Grace is endurance. Grace is the way Christ keeps a suffering saint faithful.

## “I Am What I Am” by Grace

Paul uses the same active meaning of grace in 1 Corinthians 15.

“By the grace of God I am what I am… I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.” (1 Corinthians 15:10)

Paul does not deny effort. He refuses to credit effort as the cause.

Grace is not only the reason Paul was forgiven. Grace is the reason Paul was sustained and effective. Grace is not a memory from the beginning of his Christian life. Grace is present with him and active in him.

## Grace Strengthens the Heart

Hebrews says, “It is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace.” (Hebrews 13:9)

That is not courtroom language. That is inner person language.

Grace strengthens. Grace stabilizes. Grace fortifies the heart. It meets the believer where fear, anxiety, temptation, and weakness live.

Paul tells Timothy the same thing in 2 Timothy.

“Be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus.” (2 Timothy 2:1)

Grace comes from Christ and carries Christ’s strength to those who need it. This is why a believer can be outwardly fading while inwardly being renewed. The body weakens. The heart is strengthened by grace.

## Grace Trains and Forms Us

Titus 2 pushes even further. Grace saves and grace trains.

“The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation… training us to renounce ungodliness… and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this present age.” (Titus 2:11 & 12)

Grace is not passive. Grace is not God shrugging at sin. Grace is the power of God applied to sinners through Christ. Grace teaches. Grace shapes. Grace trains.

This matters because many believers assume transformation comes from external pressure and internal willpower. Scripture says the deepest change is produced by grace.

## Grace for the Moment You Need Help

Hebrews 4 brings grace into the present tense of daily struggle.

“Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:16)

Mercy addresses guilt. Grace supplies help.

In the moment of need, the believer does not bring a résumé. The believer comes confidently because standing with God rests on Christ.

Grace is help. Grace is timely. Grace is given.

## Grace in Suffering and Spiritual Warfare

Peter calls God “the God of all grace” in 1 Peter 5, and then describes what God does after suffering.

“And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.” (1 Peter 5:10)

Grace is tied to restoration and strengthening. Grace is how the Lord holds his people in suffering.

James speaks the same way in James 4 when he confronts arrogance, slander, and spiritual adultery in the church. His answer is not a demand for self-improvement. His answer is a gift.

“He gives more grace.” (James 4:6)

Grace is what confronts pride at the root, because pride is a form of self-protection. Grace frees us from the need to preserve ourselves through hostility toward others. Grace creates humility. Grace creates repentance. Grace creates peace.

## The Mistake We Keep Making

We keep thinking spiritual strength is produced the way physical strength is produced. Discipline yields results. Practice yields progress.

There is discipline in the Christian life. There is effort. There is watchfulness. Yet Scripture refuses to make effort the engine of spiritual life.

Effort is fruit. Grace is root.

When we reverse that order, we end up treating grace as a reward for discipline. We look for grace after we have done our part. That turns the Christian life into a cycle of anxiety and self-focus.

Paul confronted that mindset head-on in Galatians 3 because believers were trying to sustain themselves by law-keeping. The law can expose sin and guide the believer. The law cannot create obedience in the heart.

Only grace does that.

## Grace Is Not God Saying “It’s Fine”

One of the most damaging distortions of grace is the idea that grace means God is casual about sin. Grace becomes a shrug. Grace becomes tolerance.

Grace is costly. Grace required incarnation. Grace required obedience. Grace required blood. Grace required the cross.

Grace means Christ lived where we failed, died for our guilt, and rose in victory over death and the powers of darkness. Grace means forgiveness is real, and transformation is real, because Christ is real and active.

Grace is God’s love applied through Christ, with divine power attached.

## The Means by Which Grace Comes

Christ gives grace through means. Scripture, preached and heard. Scripture sung and remembered. Prayer offered with confidence. The table received. Baptism enjoyed as promise. Fellowship built around the word of Christ.

Grace is not a private substance we generate inside ourselves. Grace is a gift Christ gives, and he gives it through his appointed channels.

This is one reason the enemy works so hard to isolate believers from the church and from the word. A disconnected Christian is a weakened Christian. Not because God stops loving them, but because they are cut off from the ordinary nourishment Christ uses to strengthen his people.

## A Life That Can Endure

When grace is recovered as divine power, the Christian life becomes livable.

You can confess sin without despair. You can face suffering without losing hope. You can resist temptation without pretending you are strong. You can obey without using obedience to secure your standing with God.

Grace is the power of Christ for the believer. Grace forgives and grace strengthens. Grace restores and grace trains. Grace guards and grace establishes.

That is a gift worth proclaiming. That is a gift worth building churches around. That is a gift worth giving away to weary saints who have tried every other way to make life work.

And that is why this proclamation matters. Grace is divine power, gifted to you.

---

### Recovering a Supernatural Assurance

*Published: January 7, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/recovering-a-supernatural-assurance*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Recovering a Supernatural Assurance](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/recovering-a-supernatural-assurance)

This is a conversation I have needed to have for a long time. Many believers are exhausted, anxious, and unsure where they stand with God. Not always questioning salvation itself, but questioning God’s posture toward them. Is he pleased? Is he frustrated? Is he distant? Is there a purpose to our lives at all?

What we are increasingly convinced of is this. We have lost the spiritual depth of the Christian faith. We have trained ourselves to interpret everything through what we can see, measure, and evaluate. That instinct has quietly reshaped how we think about assurance.

It is time to recover a supernatural assurance.

## A Disenchanted Faith

We live in a deeply disenchanted world. If something cannot be measured, explained, or proven through visible means, we struggle to trust it. That way of thinking has bled into Christianity.

When believers wrestle with assurance, the default response is often to look inward or outward in visible ways. We evaluate obedience. We measure habits. We examine progress. We assess success, influence, stability, and self-control. We search for physical evidence to answer a spiritual question.

Scripture does not lead us down that road.

Paul tells us plainly in Ephesians 6 that our struggle is not rooted in flesh and blood. He names a real and terrifying enemy that operates in a realm beyond what we can see. That matters because assurance itself sits on that battlefield. Doubt, accusation, fear, and despair are not simply emotional experiences. They are part of a spiritual conflict.

If assurance is treated as a physical problem, we will look for physical solutions. Scripture tells us assurance is a spiritual gift that must be received, guarded, and strengthened through spiritual means.

## Assurance Is Not a Work of the Flesh

Many of us grew up learning to measure assurance by sincerity or transformation. We were taught, sometimes subtly and sometimes explicitly, that confidence before God came from how deeply we meant it or how much our lives had changed.

That approach leaves us trapped. Sincerity has no clear boundary. Transformation never feels complete. If assurance rests on either, it will always be unstable.

Scripture never presents sincerity as the foundation of salvation. The Bible describes us as dead in sin, enslaved to darkness, and unable to rescue ourselves. Dead people do not rescue themselves by meaning it harder.

The rich young ruler was sincere. His obedience was real. His confidence collapsed the moment the law exposed its true demand.

Assurance does not come from how seriously we take God. It comes from how completely Christ has taken us.

## Justification Silences Every Accusation

Romans 8 brings this into sharp focus. Paul asks a devastating question. Who can bring a charge against God’s elect? His answer is simple and final. God is the one who justifies.

That matters because accusations will come. They will come from others. They will come from our own conscience. They will come from the enemy who delights in pointing out our failures.

The question is not whether accusations exist. The question is whether they have authority.

They do not.

Justification is not self-declared. It is God-declared. We are not accepted because we obeyed well enough or believed sincerely enough. We are accepted because Christ stood in our place, bore our guilt, and provided his righteousness.

Assurance rests where justification rests. Entirely outside of us.

## Peace Is Guarded Supernaturally

Philippians 4 tells us something remarkable. The peace of God guards our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

That peace is not produced by performance. It is not maintained by consistency. It is guarded by Christ himself.

Peace protects what we love and what we think. Assurance lives in that same space. When Christ is the object of faith, the Spirit brings a settled confidence that cannot be generated through discipline or habit alone.

This does not minimize obedience. Good works matter. They encourage us. They serve others. They glorify God. They are fruit.

They are not the root.

## Faith Comes From Hearing

Assurance grows the same way faith does. Scripture is clear. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Assurance weakens when the voice of Christ is drowned out by the noise of the world or the accusations of the enemy. It strengthens when the gospel is preached, heard, remembered, and applied.

That is why the gathering of the church matters. That is why preaching matters. That is why confession, prayer, and the ordinary means of grace matter.

We are not sustaining ourselves. We are being sustained.

## A Kingdom Strength We Do Not Produce

Standing in the strength of the Lord does not require physical ability, visible success, or emotional stability. A believer can be weak in body, overwhelmed in circumstance, and nearing death while standing firmly in Christ.

Strength in the Christian life is not self-generated. It is received.

Peter tells us that everything needed for life and godliness has already been granted by divine power. Not human power. Divine power.

That changes how we face temptation, doubt, and suffering. We do not wake up trying to secure our place in the kingdom. Christ has already secured it.

## Christ Has Done It All

Hebrews 10 brings us to the center of assurance. By a single offering, Christ has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

One sacrifice. A finished work. A permanent standing.

Christ has paid for our sins. Christ has provided our righteousness. Christ is preparing our glorification. We are not managing our salvation. We are receiving it.

The lie that haunts many Christians is the idea that the Christian life is about getting saved, keeping ourselves saved, or proving that we are saved. That lie drains joy, weakens love, and keeps believers turned inward.

The gospel turns us outward. Toward Christ. Toward others. Toward hope.

## Walking by Faith in a Supernatural Reality

We walk by faith. Faith is not wishful thinking. It is trust in a finished work that we did not perform.

The Spirit uses that faith to produce peace, obedience, humility, and love. Not as proof of acceptance, but as fruit of it.

Assurance is not found by searching ourselves. It is found by looking to Christ.

And as we recover that supernatural assurance, weary believers begin to rest, wounded believers begin to heal, and isolated believers find the courage to step back into the life of the church.

That is our prayer. That Christ would once again be seen as sufficient, present, and powerful for his people.

---

### The Christmas Paradox

*Published: December 17, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-christmas-paradox*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [The Christmas Paradox](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/the-christmas-paradox)

We love Christmas, and we struggle with it at the same time. That tension sits right at the heart of the season. We sing about joy, light, and peace while carrying grief, disappointment, and exhaustion. We decorate homes while quietly wondering why life still feels so heavy. Christmas promises wonder, yet it often exposes just how broken things are.

That paradox is not accidental. It is actually the doorway into understanding what Christmas truly means.

## The Longing Beneath the Lights

There is nothing strange about wanting Christmas to feel magical. When life has been shaped by loss, sickness, broken relationships, or chronic disappointment, it makes sense to hope for a moment of relief. We want something that feels bigger than our circumstances. We want a break from the weight of living in a fallen world.

That longing is not sinful. It is human. More than that, it is deeply biblical.

Scripture never rebukes our desire for things to be different. It names it. Romans tells us that creation groans. Ecclesiastes tells us that everything under the sun is broken. The Psalms give us words for sorrow, frustration, and waiting. The Bible never asks us to pretend that life feels fine.

Christmas stirs that longing because it touches something true. We were not made for death, decay, or disappointment. We were made for life with God in a world without sin. The ache we feel during this season is not weakness. It is memory. It is the echo of Eden and the anticipation of glory.

## Advent and the Gift of a Clean Conscience

The first coming of Christ was not sentimental. It was surgical. Jesus entered a broken world to deal with the deepest problem we have, which is guilt before a holy God.

At Christmas, we remember that the Son of God took on flesh to obey where we have failed. He did not come to give us better habits. He came to give us a clean conscience. Hebrews tells us that his blood cleanses us from dead works so that we can rest before God.

This matters more than we realize. Many believers live every day wondering whether God is disappointed in them. They fear dying at the wrong moment. They worry that one failure might undo everything. Christmas answers that fear directly.

Jesus came to secure forgiveness that does not expire. He came to give righteousness that does not fluctuate. He came to remove the burden of trying to prove ourselves worthy of God’s love.

Our standing with the Father rests on Christ alone. That truth brings relief into even the darkest seasons.

## The Second Advent and the Hope of Restoration

Christmas also points forward. The first coming of Christ guarantees the second. Advent teaches us to wait with hope, not denial.

We still live in a world marked by pain. Bodies break. Relationships strain. Death still intrudes. Scripture never tells us that these realities will disappear before Christ returns. What it tells us is that they will not have the final word.

The same Jesus who came in humility will return in glory. The same Christ who bore our sins will renew all things. New bodies, restored creation, and unbroken fellowship with God are not metaphors. They are promises.

That future hope gives us permission to be honest about the present. We do not need to pretend that life feels good. We can lament, grieve, and cry out to God without fear. The New Testament encourages this posture. It tells us to set our minds on things above, not because earthly life is meaningless, but because it is incomplete.

## Grace in the Middle of Disappointment

One of the great dangers of the holiday season is placing our hope in temporary relief. We expect certain moments to carry more weight than they can bear. When they fail, disappointment deepens.

The gospel offers something different. Grace meets us in disappointment rather than bypassing it. Christ does not promise to fix everything now. He promises to carry us faithfully until the end.

This is where the Christian life becomes lighter, not heavier. We are free to acknowledge that the world is broken. We are free to admit that our lives have not turned out the way we imagined. We are free to say that some pain will not be resolved this side of glory.

Grace does not shame us for feeling this way. Grace sustains us in it.

## The True Wonder of Christmas

We are surrounded by stories of holiday magic because people are desperate for hope. Beneath every festive myth is the same question. Is there something worth believing in that can hold up under suffering?

Christmas answers that question with a person. Jesus Christ came in weakness to rescue sinners. He lived under the law, suffered injustice, died in our place, and rose victorious. His work does not depend on our performance. His promises do not collapse when circumstances worsen.

The gospel tells us that our entire past has been dealt with at the cross. Our present is held by the intercession of Christ. Our future is secured by his resurrection.

That is not escapism. That is reality.

## Living Between the Advents

We live in the tension of already and not yet. We have forgiveness now. We have righteousness now. We have adoption now. We also wait for resurrection, renewal, and restoration.

This tension explains why Christmas feels both joyful and heavy. It reminds us of what Christ has done and what he will finish. It allows us to celebrate without pretending. It allows us to hope without denying pain.

As we gather with family, sing familiar songs, and exchange gifts, we do so with clear eyes. We enjoy good things without asking them to save us. We celebrate Christ’s birth while longing for his return.

## A Word to the Weary

If this season feels hard, you are not failing. If joy feels mixed with sorrow, you are not alone. If your heart longs for something more, that longing is pointing you to Christ.

Christmas is not about creating a perfect moment. It is about remembering a perfect Savior who entered an imperfect world to redeem it.

We rest in what he has accomplished. We wait for what he has promised. And we walk forward together, anchored in grace.

That is the Christmas paradox. And it is good news for weary souls.

All of Christ for all of life.

---

### The Strange Relief of a Grace-Shaped Life

*Published: December 10, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-strange-relief-of-a-grace-shaped-life*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [The Strange Relief of a Grace-Shaped Life (w/ David Zahl)](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/the-strange-relief-of-a-grace-shaped-life-w-david-zahl)

We talk often at Theocast about all of Christ for all of life. Not bits of Christ, not slices of the Christian message, but the real Jesus for the real world we are actually living in. Some days that world feels manageable. Other days it feels like a collapsing roof. Most days it feels like a treadmill that keeps speeding up no matter how tired we are.

This is why the word _relief_ keeps coming back to my mind. It is also why David Zahl’s work resonates so deeply with me. When someone in ministry for almost twenty years looks around and says, “The greatest need in our world is relief,” you can feel the truth of it. Because you and I are not dealing with small problems. We are dealing with weary people in a weary world.

I want to share some of what came out of our conversation with David because it touches the core of what we care about at Theocast: helping tired Christians rediscover the joy and freedom that only grace can give.

## **Why Grace Must Be Recovered**

We throw the word grace around, but most of us carry a meaning that looks nothing like Scripture. Many believers hear _grace_ and imagine God offering them an invitation that must then be honored with a life of high performance and constant improvement.

Grace becomes fuel for a treadmill. Or we imagine grace as a gentle push that helps us work a little harder. Or we think of grace as something God gives until he gets tired of us. All of those definitions collapse under the real weight of life.

The biblical meaning of grace is far more shocking and far more relieving. It is God’s love toward sinners given freely, without conditions, without a later bill arriving in the mail. It is God’s kindness poured out on people who cannot clean themselves up, who cannot hold themselves together, who cannot undo the mess they made, and who cannot rescue themselves from despair.

Grace is _God for you_ when all you have to offer is need. Grace is _God with you_ when your strength is gone. Grace is _God holding you_ when you are too weak to take another step. That is where relief begins.

## **A Culture Buried in Pressure**

One of the things David mentioned in our talk struck me deeply. He said that fifteen years ago, a college student asking to talk usually wanted to confess something related to purity. Now, nine out of ten come to confess thoughts of despair. That is a staggering shift.

We are watching an entire generation buckle under pressures they can’t articulate. And it is not only college students. I have had men and women in their seventies sit in my office and confess the same kind of despair.

Everyone is carrying something heavy. Everyone feels like they are behind. Everyone fears they are disappointing someone. People do not simply want inspiration. They need relief.

## **What Grace Does That Nothing Else Can Do**

Grace does not promise to reverse the curse here and now. It does not promise a smooth life. Scripture is honest about sorrow, loss, and death. But grace gives something that makes the suffering survivable.

Grace gives you a God who loves you without condition. Grace gives you a Savior who took on your weakness. Grace gives you a place to collapse. Grace gives you a purpose that is not dependent on your success. Grace gives you a future no grief can touch.

One of the reasons the gospel is truly good news is because it frees us from believing that life depends on our performance. A grace-shaped life creates an unexpected kind of relief: you can stop taking yourself so seriously.

You can breathe again. You can laugh again. You can fail without believing you are ruined. You can suffer without believing you are abandoned. And you can love others without turning every moment into a transaction.

## **Grace Produces a Different Kind of Community**

A community shaped by performance becomes a place where people hide. A community shaped by grace becomes a place where people come alive.

A grace-shaped church is one where:

* People confess sin without fear.
* People carry each other’s burdens.
* People experience comfort, not competition.
* People are met with compassion, not conditions.

And here is the irony: Churches built on high expectations usually implode. Churches built on grace usually flourish, because they give people a place to be honest and a place to find rest.

## **Why We Need a Fresh Reminder**

You and I never graduate from our need for grace. We drift toward performance without noticing it. We drift toward self-condemnation without choosing it. We drift into fear because we forget the heart of God toward us.

So the goal of reminding you about grace is not to inspire you for a moment. It is to re-anchor you in reality.

God is not against you. He is not tired of you. He is not measuring you against someone else. He is not waiting for improvement before he draws near.

He knows the worst about you and still gave you his Son. He knows the battles you face and still promises to carry you. He knows the despair that haunts you and still calls you his child.

Grace is not a soft word. Grace is God’s rescue for people who cannot rescue themselves. That is why it brings such strange relief.

## **A Final Word for Tired Souls**

If you are exhausted by pressure, if you feel the weight of expectations you cannot meet, if you wonder why sadness keeps showing up uninvited, hear this clearly:

Christ is for you. Christ holds you. Christ has you. And Christ will not let you go. Let your heart rest for a moment in that truth. Let the pressure drop. Let the fear loosen. Grace really is as good as it sounds. And it really is for you.

All of Christ for all of life.

---

### The Prosperity Gospel Test

*Published: December 3, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-prosperity-gospel-test*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [The Prosperity Gospel Test](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/the-prosperity-gospel-test)

Most of us would never dream of calling ourselves prosperity-gospel Christians. If someone asked, we would quickly distance ourselves from teachings that promise health, wealth, and influence as the outcome of strong faith or generous giving. We know the danger of a transactional view of God.

But there is a subtler form of prosperity thinking that slips into the lives of sincere, reformed, gospel-loving believers. It does not show up in our theology statements. It shows up in our assumptions, our fears, our disappointment, and the quiet ways we measure God’s love.

This version of the prosperity gospel is not about money or success. It is about performance. It is about believing God moves toward us or away from us based on how well we think we are doing. It is pietism dressed up in conservative clothing.

To expose this in ourselves, I put together a handful of questions. They are simple, but they reveal a great deal about where we place our hope.

## Question 1: When life is hard, do you quietly assume you caused it?

Many Christians immediately search their behavior when suffering hits. We wonder if our hardship is punishment for laziness, lack of discipline, weak prayer, or missed devotion.

Scripture certainly teaches that sin brings consequences. Peter says not to suffer for evil. But all suffering is not the result of personal failure. We live in a fallen world, and hardship is universal. The quiet instinct to assume every hard thing is God’s reaction to us is deeply rooted in transactional thinking.

## Question 2: Do you feel God is pleased with you only when your spiritual habits are strong?

Most believers know this experience. You begin the year with fresh resolve. Bible reading is consistent, prayer is steady, and your conscience feels lighter. Then life hits, the rhythm falls apart, and suddenly God feels distant.

This is not the voice of the gospel.  
It is the voice of the scorekeeper we create in our own minds.

God’s affection toward his children does not rise and fall with our performance. His delight is grounded in Christ, not in our discipline.

## Question 3: When blessings come, do you feel you finally did something right?

A good season of life can expose what we secretly believe. When finances improve or relationships flourish, many Christians assume they finally got things together. It is easy to imagine that blessings prove we made good choices, followed the right steps, or impressed God in some way.

Scripture never ties God’s love to our outward circumstances. If it did, Paul, Peter, and the entire early church would have been considered spiritual failures. Blessing is meaningful, but it is never a verdict on your performance.

## Question 4: When you fall into sin, do you believe God steps back from you?

This may be the most common form of quiet prosperity thinking. We imagine God takes a step back until we confess, clean up, and try harder. We assume his nearness is fragile and easily damaged.

Nothing could be further from the gospel. When we sin, we have an advocate. When we fail, we have a High Priest who intercedes for us.

The Father does not pull away from his children when they stumble. He invites us to run toward him with boldness. Our righteousness before him is Christ himself.

## Question 5: Do you measure God’s love by how peaceful or comfortable life feels?

When life feels calm, we say God is good. When life breaks apart, we quietly question what he is doing. This is prosperity thinking in disguise.

Jesus promised that sorrow and suffering will come. He promised trouble in this world. He also promised to be near, to sustain, and to carry us.

Comfort is not proof of God’s love. The cross is.

## Question 6: Do you believe mature Christians should have fewer struggles?

Many believers assume that the older they get in the faith, the smoother life should become. Yet every believer I have shepherded over the years would say the opposite. Temptation does not disappear. Trials often increase. Awareness of sin grows deeper.

Maturity does not remove struggle.  
Maturity teaches us to run to Christ in the struggle.

Paul himself lived this tension. His present tense words in Romans 7 are not the confession of an unbeliever. They are the battle cry of a mature apostle who needed Christ every day.

## Question 7: Do you expect spiritual effort to produce quick results?

This is one of the clearest signs of quiet prosperity thinking. We live in a results-driven world. We assume that more reading, more prayer, more discipline will guarantee transformation. But growth is not mechanical.

Spiritual maturity is slow. It is the work of the Spirit. It happens through the ordinary means of grace, through life in the church, through suffering, through weakness, and through long dependence on Christ.

We do not accelerate sanctification by force of will. Faithfulness matters, but it does not control outcomes.

## Question 8: Do you feel uneasy resting in Christ unless you have first done your part?

Rest sounds passive to many believers. It feels irresponsible. We assume we must meet God halfway. Yet Jesus calls exhausted people, not accomplished people. Rest is not a reward for effort. It is the life we have in Christ.

Rest means this: Your forgiveness is secure. Your righteousness is complete. Your status before God is fixed. Your salvation is upheld by someone stronger than you.

Rest frees you to love, serve, and obey without fear.

## Question 9: Do you believe a strong Christian life should shield you from sorrow?

Some Christians assume sadness is a sign of weak faith. They avoid lament. They suppress grief. They wear a constant smile because sorrow feels like spiritual failure.

Jesus wept. Paul despaired of life itself. The Psalms are filled with tears.

Sorrow is not a lack of faith. Sorrow is part of the life of faith.

## A Quiet Invitation Back to Grace

Here is what all these questions reveal:

Many Christians who reject the prosperity gospel still live as though God’s favor moves up and down based on performance. Many believers who cherish the doctrines of grace still slip into transactional thinking.

But the gospel is not transactional. Salvation is not earned. God’s love is not fragile. Christ’s righteousness is not incomplete.

You do not need to convince God to bless you. You do not need to earn his smile. You do not need to clean yourself up before he comes near.

You already have his attention. You already have his affection. You already have his righteousness. You already have his mercy.

Rest in that.

And from that rest, you will have strength to face suffering, to love others, to confess your sin, and to walk by faith.

The quiet prosperity thinking that creeps into our hearts can be exposed. But we do not fight it by trying harder. We fight it by looking to Christ.

All of Christ for all of life.

---

### Why Do I Still Struggle with Sin?

*Published: November 26, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/why-do-i-still-struggle-with-sin*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Why Do I Still Struggle with Sin? (w/ Luke Kjolhaug)](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/why-do-i-still-struggle-with-sin-w-luke-kjolhaugh)

Every Christian eventually asks this question. We come to Jesus with joy, we believe the gospel, we know we are forgiven, and yet the battle within us continues. Temptation remains. Sin still rises up from places we thought had been conquered. We hear sermons about new life, new creation, and holiness, and we wonder why our hearts still feel divided.

Many believers assume something must be wrong with them. Some assume their faith is weak. Others fear they were never saved. But Scripture paints a very different picture. The ongoing struggle with sin is not a sign that God has abandoned us. It is the normal experience of the Christian life.

## Saint and Sinner

Christians throughout history have used the phrase “saint and sinner” to describe the believer’s identity. It simply means this: in Christ we are fully righteous in standing before God, and yet in our flesh we remain sinful until the resurrection. Both realities are true at the same time.

Paul himself speaks this way. He calls himself the chief of sinners while rejoicing in his union with Christ. He speaks of indwelling sin with painful honesty and then lifts his voice in hope because Christ is his righteousness.

This is not a half-and-half identity. We are not fifty percent saint and fifty percent sinner. We are fully counted righteous in Christ and fully aware of the sin that remains in our bodies. We are a new creation, yet we still await the day when our bodies will be raised in perfection.

## The War Within

The New Testament consistently describes a battle between the flesh and the Spirit. Galatians 5 makes this clear. Romans 7 expresses the tension in vivid detail. There is a real war happening inside every believer. The flesh pulls one way, the Spirit another.

Before conversion, there was no war. We followed the desires of the flesh without resistance. The fight itself is a sign of life. A dead heart does not wrestle. A living heart does.

This means your struggle with sin is not evidence that God has turned his face from you. It is evidence that the Spirit is at work in you. The conflict only comes because you belong to Christ.

## The Danger of Forgetting the Gospel

When we remove the saint-and-sinner reality from our understanding, we drift into two unhealthy directions.

Some fall into despair. They assume their failure disqualifies them. They convince themselves that no true Christian would still struggle. They hide their sin. They fear that one more failure will reveal them as frauds.

Others drift into pride. They begin to measure themselves by their performance. They imagine themselves strong. They compare themselves to others and become harsh and judgmental. They reduce the Christian life to checklists and progress charts.

Both paths pull us away from Christ. Both paths rob us of joy. Both forget that the Christian life rests entirely on the finished work of Jesus.

## Why God Expects Us to Struggle

First John tells us that anyone who claims to have no sin deceives himself. Hebrews 4 invites us to come boldly to the throne of grace for help in time of need. These promises are written to Christians. God assumes we will struggle. He expects us to confess. He prepares mercy ahead of time.

We have a Savior who intercedes for us. We have the Spirit who sustains us. We have the Father who welcomes us again and again.

The struggle will be part of our life until the day we see Jesus face to face. That day will come, but until then, we walk by faith. We look to Christ. We rest in his righteousness. We fight with the confidence that the battle does not determine our standing with God.

## The Purpose of the Fight

Understanding this tension does not minimize the call to holiness. It gives the only foundation where holiness can grow. We pursue godliness not to earn anything but because everything has already been granted to us.

Second Peter tells us that God’s divine power has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. Our effort is never to secure our place with God. Our effort flows from our place with God.

We obey because we have been loved. We repent because grace makes repentance possible. We serve because Christ has served us.

## Normal Christianity

If you wake up tomorrow and the flesh is pulling at you again, that does not mean your salvation is in question. If you find yourself weary from the battle, that does not mean you have failed. If you find sin still lurking in your heart, that does not mean Christ has withdrawn from you.

It means you are alive. It means the Spirit is in you. It means you desperately need Jesus, which is exactly where faith thrives.

The Christian who understands this tension can finally breathe. You do not have to pretend. You do not have to perform. You do not have to hide. You fight sin, and you rest in Christ. That rhythm is the normal Christian life.

## The Hope That Carries Us

One day the war will end. The flesh will fall silent. The body of death will give way to a body of glory. Christ will wipe away every tear. But until that day, we look to him.

He is the author and finisher of our faith. He began our salvation, and he will complete it.

So take heart. The struggle does not disprove your faith. It reveals it. And the Savior who holds you will not let you go.

---

### The Prison of Self-Preservation

*Published: November 20, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-prison-of-self-preservation*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [The Prison of Self-Preservation](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/the-prison-of-self-preservation)

Loneliness has a way of exposing what we worship. When we feel unseen, unloved, or forgotten, the natural instinct is to turn inward and protect ourselves. The message of our culture reinforces that instinct. We are told to prioritize ourselves, to love ourselves first, to build our own happiness. But what often happens is that this pursuit of self-preservation becomes a prison.

## The Lie of Self-Priority

A woman online recently shared her grief over realizing she was not a priority to anyone in her life. She spoke with heartbreak. She felt unseen and unloved. Yet, by the end of her message, she resolved to make herself her own priority. Her words revealed the cycle so many live in.

Our world preaches that joy is found in self-fulfillment, independence, and personal freedom. We are encouraged to avoid dependence, to avoid commitment, and to avoid anything that might require sacrifice. We convince ourselves that if we remain in control, we will remain safe.

But the more we protect ourselves, the more isolated we become. The more we prioritize ourselves, the more we lose the very things our souls long for.

This is what sin produces in the human heart. Scripture teaches that we are born curved inward on ourselves. We naturally assume that self-focus will rescue us. In reality, self-focus is the very thing that destroys us.

## The Freedom of Christ

The gospel exposes this lie. Jesus did not come to teach us how to protect ourselves. He came to rescue us from ourselves. The cross reveals a love that gives rather than grasps.

Philippians 2 tells us that Christ humbled himself, even to the point of death. Then Paul says, “Let this mind be in you.” The call to consider others more significant than ourselves only makes sense in light of what Christ has already done for us.

God’s love is not earned. It is not maintained by our performance. He loved us before we were born. He loved us while we were his enemies. His love is not conditional or fragile. It does not weaken when we fail. He set his affection on us in Christ and sealed what he began. Nothing can separate us from that love.

When we see this, self-preservation loses its grip. We no longer need to guard ourselves from losing something that cannot be lost. We can serve, give, and love because our security rests in Christ alone.

## Created for Communion

We were never designed to live alone. God created humanity to walk with him and to walk with one another. Sin fractured that fellowship. Isolation and mistrust followed.

Yet God is restoring what sin destroyed. And part of that restoration is found in the church.

The church is the place where lonely people are welcomed into a family. Every believer is needed. Every member matters. The church exists to encourage, comfort, and build up the saints in love.

The woman who said she was no one’s priority expressed a longing every human shares. We all want to be loved and known. That longing is not a flaw. It is part of being made in the image of God. We were created for communion.

## The Joy of Self-Giving

Jesus said that no one has greater love than to lay down his life for his friends. That is the shape of the Christian life. Joy is found not by protecting ourselves but by giving ourselves away.

When we understand how deeply Christ loves us, we begin to reflect that love in our relationships. Marriage becomes a picture of grace. Parenting becomes a place to display patience. Life in the church becomes a rhythm of giving and receiving mercy.

Self-protection promises safety. Christ promises joy.

## The Hope of Glory

Every act of love in this life is a small glimpse of the world to come. A day is coming when isolation will disappear forever. The loneliness and anxiety that mark our culture will be swallowed by the presence of God.

Until that day, we live by faith. We remember that the One who laid down his life for us has given us a place in his family. We rest in the love that cannot be shaken.

The gospel does not call us to preserve ourselves. It calls us to die to ourselves and find life in Christ. That is the only freedom that lasts.

Self-preservation cannot free us. Only grace can. And the Savior who speaks that grace still says, “Come to me, all who are weary, and I will give you rest.”

---

### Jesus and the Accuser

*Published: October 30, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/jesus-and-the-accuser*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Jesus and the Accuser (w/ Chad Bird & Ken Jones)](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/jesus-and-the-accuser-w-chad-bird-ken-jones)

Scripture tells us that believers have three great enemies—the world, the flesh, and the devil. Each one works to steal our peace and shake our confidence in Christ. Yet one of the most powerful and subtle ways the enemy attacks is through accusation. Revelation 12 calls him “the accuser of the brothers,” describing how he stands before God, day and night, bringing charges against the saints.

He accuses us because we give him plenty of material. We have failed countless times. We stumble, we sin, and we fall short. Our conscience agrees with his words. But when we listen to those accusations without the gospel in view, we lose sight of the One who silenced them all.

## The Devil’s Favorite Weapon

Satan is a skilled preacher of the law. He knows how to twist God’s truth and use it to condemn. He points to our sin and tells us that we have disqualified ourselves. He reminds us of our weakness and insists that God must be tired of forgiving us.

He even works through voices that sound good and sincere. He can make condemnation sound holy. Many well-meaning sermons, conversations, and even our own inner thoughts echo his tone—urging us to perform better, feel more, and prove that we belong to God. It all sounds like spiritual advice, but it is a weapon designed to turn our eyes inward.

The law, when separated from Christ, always accuses. It exposes our failure, but it cannot heal us. Satan knows this, and he uses the law to drive us into despair or pride.

## The Gospel Silences the Accuser

The gospel announces a different message. Jesus has already stood before every accusation on our behalf. The cross was the courtroom where all charges were heard and answered. Every sin the accuser names has already been condemned in Christ’s body.

The devil says, “You are guilty.” The gospel replies, “You are forgiven.”  
The devil says, “You are unworthy.” The gospel replies, “You are clothed in Christ’s righteousness.”  
The devil says, “You have failed again.” The gospel replies, “Jesus intercedes for you even now.”

Faith clings to this verdict: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

When we understand this, we begin to see how God views us. He delights in his children. He smiles upon those united to his Son. The Father’s joy in you is grounded in the perfect obedience and sacrifice of Christ, not in your performance.

## Accusations in the Church

Satan does not only accuse us before God. He also accuses us before one another. The same voice that whispers guilt in our ear stirs division and judgment among believers. Churches often wound their own members by holding them to standards that the gospel has already fulfilled in Christ.

When a brother or sister falls, the enemy wants the church to respond with condemnation rather than compassion. He loves to see us treat forgiven sinners as though they are beyond grace. Every time we do, we act as his messengers instead of Christ’s.

The gospel calls us to something different—to restore the fallen gently, to bear one another’s burdens, and to remember that we all stand in grace.

## The Power of the Cross

Jesus has disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame. The battle against accusation has already been won. The cross is not only a place of forgiveness; it is the victory of the Lamb who conquers through sacrifice.

Our confidence is not in our repentance, sincerity, or level of faith. Even the smallest spark of faith clings to the full Christ. Our hope is anchored in what he has done, not in how we feel.

When doubts come, remember this truth: Jesus stands outside of us, unshaken by our weakness. His righteousness is untouched by our failure. His intercession never stops. The enemy cannot reach him, and he cannot undo what Christ has finished.

## Standing Firm

The Christian life is spiritual warfare, but not in the dramatic sense we often imagine. The battle takes place in our hearts and minds, where the enemy seeks to twist the gospel. He does not need to tempt us with spectacular evil. All he must do is persuade us that Christ’s work was not enough.

The way we fight is by standing firm in the truth. We resist the accuser by speaking the gospel to one another and to ourselves. We remind our hearts that Christ’s work is complete and that his promises are sure.

When Satan whispers lies, we answer with Scripture: “Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.”

## Encouragement for the Weary

Many believers struggle with lingering guilt or with the fear that they have out-sinned God’s mercy. If that is you, take heart. The accusations you hear do not come from your Shepherd. The voice of your Savior calls you to rest.

Jesus does not break bruised reeds or snuff out smoldering wicks. He cherishes every faint spark of faith. The same grace that saved you will keep you.

The next time the accuser reminds you of your sin, remind him of your Savior. Point to the cross and the empty tomb. Christ has already spoken the final word over you: forgiven, righteous, beloved, secure.

The accuser has been cast down. The Lamb has triumphed. And you, dear Christian, stand free.

---

### Gospel VS Law Based Living

*Published: October 27, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/gospel-vs-law-based-living*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Gospel VS Law Based Living (w/ Chad Bird & Ken Jones)](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/gospel-vs-law-based-living-w-chad-bird-ken-jones)

Every believer wrestles with what motivates the Christian life. Some days we feel driven by guilt or fear, believing that our obedience is what keeps God pleased with us. Other days we glimpse something better, a life moved by gratitude and joy in the finished work of Christ. That tension between gospel-focused living and law-driven living has existed since the earliest days of the church.

## The Weight of the Law

Many Christians live with a kind of spiritual schizophrenia. We know that salvation is by grace, yet we wake up each morning as if everything depends on our performance. We treat the law as a ladder to climb toward God’s favor, rather than a mirror that reveals our need for grace.

When the law is used as a measuring stick for our worth, it only breeds despair. It can show us what holiness looks like, but it cannot make us holy. The law has no power to change the heart. It is holy, righteous, and good, but it exposes how far we fall short.

Paul said it plainly: the law brings knowledge of sin, not strength to overcome it. It is a weapon that kills, not a tool that gives life. Every time we try to use the law as fuel for sanctification, it leaves us weary and afraid.

## The Freedom of the Gospel

The gospel reveals something greater. God does not relate to us based on our performance but through the finished work of his Son. Christ kept the law perfectly, bore its curse, and fulfilled its demands. He now clothes us in his righteousness and calls us his own.

When we see ourselves as God sees us in Christ, everything changes. The Father smiles on us. He delights in his children. He is more joyful about our redemption than we can imagine.

This is the power that the gospel brings to daily life. We are free to pursue holiness without fear of rejection. We no longer obey to earn favor but because we already have it. The Spirit moves us to walk in love, not to prove ourselves but because we are secure in Christ.

## Standing in the Armor of Christ

Paul’s command to “put on the armor of God” is not a call to muster strength. It is a call to stand in what we already possess. The armor is not a new task to complete but a description of who we are in Jesus.

* The breastplate of righteousness is his righteousness covering us.
* The helmet of salvation is his finished rescue.
* The belt of truth, the gospel of peace, and the shield of faith are all gifts of grace that belong to those who are united to him.

We do not forge this armor by obedience. We wear what Christ has already won. God has given us every spiritual blessing in Christ. Our task is to stand firm in those blessings, not to create them.

## Seeing Ourselves Through God’s Eyes

If we could see ourselves as God sees us in Christ, we would hardly recognize the reflection. We would see holiness, beauty, and righteousness, not because of our efforts but because we are wrapped in the perfection of Jesus.

Faith is learning to believe that this is true. It is trusting that even when we feel unworthy or defeated, God’s verdict does not change. He sees us through the blood and obedience of his Son.

## Living from a New Identity

Gospel living begins with remembering who we are. We have been qualified by God, transferred from darkness into the kingdom of his beloved Son. The Spirit continually reminds us of this reality, shaping our minds and hearts to match what is already true.

The Christian life is not about creating a new identity through performance. It is about living out the one we have been given. We are children of light, forgiven and accepted. We walk in holiness not to become righteous but because we are.

## Rest for Weary Hearts

Law-driven living will always end in exhaustion. Gospel-focused living produces rest. The more we understand what Christ has done, the more we delight in obeying him. The goodness of God leads us to say no to sin and yes to righteousness.

The law exposes. The gospel empowers. The law accuses. The gospel declares, “You are mine.”

When we wake each morning, the call is simple: stand in the grace that is already ours. Put on the armor of Christ. Remember that the battle has been won. The One who began a good work in us will carry it to completion.

The gospel gives what the law never can: assurance, peace, and joy in the presence of a God who is already pleased with his children.

---

### Is the Gospel Really That Simple?

*Published: October 24, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/is-the-gospel-really-that-simple*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Is the Gospel Really That Simple?](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/is-the-gospel-really-that-simple)

When someone asks, “What is the gospel?” many Christians freeze. We worry about saying the wrong thing. We wonder if our answer will sound too shallow or if it will leave something out. We often overcomplicate the message that God has made beautifully simple.

The gospel is deep enough to study for a lifetime, yet simple enough for a child to believe. It is both profound and plain.

## The Gospel in Its Simplest Form

At its core, the gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ lived, died, and rose again for sinners. He stood in our place. He fulfilled the law we could not keep. He bore the punishment our sin deserved. He conquered death and the devil.

Faith in Christ alone is what saves. The question is not how much you know or how strong your faith feels. The question is: are you trusting in Jesus or in something else?

The person who believes that Jesus has done everything necessary for salvation is saved. The gospel is not a complex system to master but a simple announcement of what God has already done through his Son.

## The Faith of a Child

Abraham believed God’s promise and was counted righteous. He did not know every detail about the coming Messiah, but he trusted that God would redeem his people. That same faith—trusting God’s Redeemer—is what saves us.

A child who says, “Jesus died for my sins and he will take me to be with him,” believes the gospel. That is the kind of faith that unites us to Christ. We never graduate from that.

The believer who has studied theology for decades and the new Christian who has only recently heard the name of Jesus share the same foundation: Jesus Christ for us.

## Growing in the Knowledge of Grace

When we first believe, our understanding is small. Over time, God deepens our knowledge through discipleship and the church. We grow in clarity, but growth does not make us more saved. We do not advance beyond the gospel. We grow deeper into it.

The believer who has walked with Christ for fifty years still rests on the same truth as the person who was saved yesterday: “Jesus is enough for me.”

Doctrine and maturity help us see more clearly what Christ has done, but they do not add to the gospel. They help us appreciate the fullness of what we already possess in him.

## The Danger of Losing Simplicity

Paul warned the church in Galatia about drifting from the simplicity of Christ. When we add conditions or measures of progress to the gospel, we create another message altogether. The moment salvation depends on our performance or our level of understanding, it stops being good news.

We are not saved by the sincerity of our repentance, the strength of our faith, or the amount of our obedience. We are saved by the finished work of Jesus. Faith simply receives what he has done.

Christians often confuse how we are saved with how we grow. The gospel saves us. The Spirit uses the gospel to mature us. Growth comes through teaching, discipleship, and the ordinary means of grace in the local church. But progress in holiness is never the basis of our acceptance before God.

## Faith in Christ Alone

If you are uncertain about your standing with God, begin here: Do you believe that Jesus has done everything necessary to reconcile you to the Father? Do you believe that his life, death, and resurrection are enough for you?

If the answer is yes, you can rest. Salvation does not depend on the size of your faith but on the strength of your Savior. Jesus keeps all who come to him. He said, “Whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”

## The Gospel That Holds

The gospel is not an invitation to prove yourself. It is an announcement that Christ has already secured your salvation. He lived the perfect life you could not live. He died the death your sin demanded. He rose to give you eternal life.

Every believer—from the youngest child to the oldest saint—stands on the same ground: Jesus Christ for us.

The gospel really is that simple. And it is that good.

---

### When Christians Hurt Each Other

*Published: October 24, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/when-christians-hurt-each-other*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [When Christians Hurt Each Other](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/when-christians-hurt-each-other)

Conflict among Christians can be one of the most painful experiences in life. The people who are supposed to embody grace and compassion sometimes wound each other the most deeply. Every believer knows what it feels like to be hurt or misunderstood by another Christian. Every believer also knows the guilt of being the one who caused pain.

The good news is that the gospel of Christ not only reconciles us to God but also gives us a way to live with one another in the midst of our failures.

## Conflict Is Normal

Conflict is not a sign that something strange has happened. It is part of living in a fallen world. Even in the church, where we share the same Spirit and the same hope, we still sin against each other. We have not been freed from the presence of sin yet, which means we will continue to deal with misunderstanding, selfishness, and hurt until Christ returns.

That reality does not make conflict easy, but it should keep us from despair. We can acknowledge what is true without losing hope.

## Begin with Humility

When conflict arises, humility must lead the way. Scripture calls us to consider others as more significant than ourselves. Pride assumes the worst of others. Humility gives them the benefit of the doubt.

When someone offends us, we often jump to conclusions about their motives. We think we know why they said what they said or did what they did. But we do not know another person’s heart. We are called to listen carefully, to ask clarifying questions, and to approach each other with gentleness.

Instead of accusing, we can say, “Here’s how that landed on me. Is that what you meant?” or “I may be misunderstanding you. Can you help me understand what you were trying to say?” Those small acts of humility often keep wounds from deepening.

## Listen with Compassion

James tells us that wisdom is gentle, open to reason, and full of mercy. When someone tells us how our words or actions have hurt them, it is not our job to debate their experience. It is our job to listen and grieve that they have been hurt.

You may not have intended harm, but love acknowledges pain even when it was unintentional. A simple response like, “I am sorry that I made you feel that way. That was not my desire, and I want to understand,” can disarm tension and rebuild trust.

## Address the Deeper Issues

Many arguments are not about the surface issue at all. They are the result of hidden frustration or unresolved hurt. In marriage, friendship, or church relationships, it is helpful to ask, “Is something else bothering you?” Often the real wound has never been named, and that question allows honesty to enter the room.

When believers walk in the light together, bitterness loses its power.

## Remember the Gospel

The heart of reconciliation is the gospel. Jesus has loved us when we were his enemies. He forgave us when we were guilty and unrepentant. He continues to show mercy even when we fail him daily.

That reality changes how we relate to others. Christ has forgiven every sin that believers commit against one another. His death covers not only the offenses we confess but also the ones we do not even realize we have committed.

Because of this, we can forgive those who hurt us. Forgiveness is not easy, and it is not natural, but it is the way of those who have been forgiven much.

## Forgive, Even When It Hurts

Jesus told his disciples to forgive again and again. He was not minimizing sin or pretending the pain is small. He was teaching that forgiveness is a posture of the heart, not a one-time event.

Sometimes forgiveness must be renewed daily. The hurt may linger, and the relationship may never return to what it was. Forgiveness does not always mean full restoration, and it does not erase consequences. But it does release the bitterness that poisons the soul.

Forgiveness frees us to love without demanding repayment. It entrusts justice to God, who judges rightly and never forgets.

## Extend Grace in the Family of Faith

When we are wronged, it is tempting to hold grudges or demand proof of repentance. The gospel leads us in another direction. We deal with one another not according to law but according to grace. We seek peace. We aim to restore, not to punish.

Christians are called to love even when the other person does not respond in kind. Love does not wait to be reciprocated. It moves first. It lays down its rights and chooses compassion over vindication.

## Healing and Hope

There are times when the pain of being hurt by another Christian runs deep. Some wounds take years to heal. There may be seasons where trust cannot be immediately rebuilt. Even so, we can rest in this: Jesus has borne every offense and every sorrow. He knows what it is to be betrayed, misunderstood, and forsaken by friends.

He also promises that a day is coming when sin will no longer separate us. Every tear will be wiped away. Every relationship between God’s people will be whole.

Until that day, we live as forgiven sinners who forgive. We love as those who have been loved first. We remember that the church is not a gathering of perfect people but a community of redeemed ones who are learning, slowly and painfully, to love like their Savior.

When Christians hurt each other, the gospel is still true. Christ is still enough. His mercy is the only thing strong enough to hold us together.

---

### Tempted? Welcome to Christianity

*Published: October 23, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/tempted-welcome-to-christianity*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Tempted? Welcome to Christianity](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/tempted-welcome-to-christianity)

If you have walked with Christ for any amount of time, you have likely wondered why temptation still feels so strong. You may have even assumed that maturity in the faith would mean the struggle gets easier. Many Christians believe that the longer they follow Jesus, the less temptation they will face. The reality is quite different.

The Christian life is one of continual dependence on Christ in the midst of ongoing temptation. That struggle is normal.

## Temptation Is a Common Experience

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 10:13, “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man.” The temptation you face is not unique. Every believer knows the same pull. The desires that draw us away from God have been present since the garden.

Temptation is part of living in a fallen world under the influence of the evil one. The apostle John says that the whole world lies in his power. The devil tempts, the world entices, and our flesh responds. Yet none of this surprises God. He is faithful and does not abandon us to fight alone. Paul reminds us that God “will provide the way of escape,” which means the strength to endure through faith in Christ.

Temptation is not the evidence that God has failed you. It is the reminder that you still live in a body that longs for redemption.

## Jesus Understands

Jesus knows what temptation feels like. He was tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin. He felt hunger, exhaustion, and fear. He was confronted by Satan directly. He even prayed in the garden, “Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me.” The Son of God knows what it means to feel the weight of temptation pressing down.

Because he understands, we can come to him. Hebrews 4 tells us that he sympathizes with our weaknesses. He is not shocked by our struggles or ashamed to call us his brothers and sisters. He welcomes us to his throne of grace so that we may receive mercy and find help in time of need.

## The Battle Within

Every believer lives with two realities: the presence of the Holy Spirit and the corruption of the flesh. We have been made new in Christ, yet we still carry our fallen nature. The Spirit leads us toward righteousness, but the flesh pulls toward sin. This tension defines the Christian life.

You are not broken beyond repair when you feel that internal war. It is the sign of spiritual life. Before we were saved, there was no fight. Now there is resistance. The flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is contrary to the flesh. Temptation is the evidence that the Spirit is at work in you, not proof that he has left you.

## God Provides a Way

Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 10 are not a promise that temptation will disappear. They are a promise that God will strengthen us to endure. The “way of escape” is always Christ himself. He is our refuge and our strength. His faithfulness is greater than our weakness.

The Lord provides means of grace to help us stand. He gives us his Word, prayer, the Lord’s Supper, and the fellowship of the church. These are not empty rituals. They are how God feeds and protects his people. We come to the table each week not because we have conquered sin, but because we need strength to face it again.

Temptation is not conquered in isolation. God has given us each other. Confess your struggles to trusted brothers and sisters. Pray together. Encourage one another with the gospel. The church is a community of fellow strugglers who fight the same enemy and rest in the same Savior.

## When You Feel Ashamed

Temptation often brings shame. We wonder why we are tempted by the same sins again and again. Shame drives us to hide. The gospel calls us to step into the light.

When shame whispers that you are alone, remember that Jesus was tempted too. When guilt tells you that God must be tired of you, remember that his mercy never runs out. When you feel defeated, remember that Christ has already overcome the world.

Our Father does not despise weak, tempted saints. He delights in those who run to him for help.

## Enduring Until Glory

The struggle with temptation will last until Christ returns. Every day we pray, “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” Every day we stand in the strength of the Lord and trust his grace to keep us.

There will come a day when temptation will cease forever. Sin will be gone. The flesh will be no more. The enemy will be silenced. We will finally rest in perfect holiness and joy. Until then, we endure by faith.

If you are tempted, welcome to Christianity. This is the fight every believer knows. You are not alone, and you are not abandoned. Christ is faithful to strengthen, forgive, and keep you until the day you see him face to face.

---

### Processing Evil in Light of Charlie Kirk

*Published: October 14, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/processing-evil-in-light-of-charlie-kirk*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Processing Evil in Light of Charlie Kirk](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/processing-evil-in-light-of-charlie-kirk)

Reports of targeted violence have a way of freezing us in place. Many of us learned of the attack on Charlie Kirk within minutes of hearing about other brutal incidents that same week. The details differ. The ache feels the same. Christians wrestle with shock, grief, and anger, and we wonder how to process what we are seeing and how to shepherd those we love.

This article aims to steady you with Scripture, ground your reactions, and point you to the hope that does not move.

## Name evil as evil

The Bible gives us moral clarity. Evil is real and objective because God is real and holy. Scripture describes a world that groans under the curse, where sin produces death and misery in spiritual, temporal, and eternal forms. When violence erupts, we do not minimize it, excuse it, or numb ourselves to it. We call it what it is and we mourn.

## Expect grief, shock, and righteous anger

Grief and indignation are fitting. You bear God’s image, and your conscience recognizes injustice. The Psalms model tears, protests, and pleas: “How long, O Lord?” Give yourself and your family permission to lament. Read a psalm aloud. Pray with simple words. Ask the Lord for mercy on victims and witnesses. Ask for wisdom for first responders and medical teams.

## Understand the deeper conflict

Scripture explains why our world bleeds. Humanity is enslaved to sin, carried along by the course of this age, and darkened by the lies of the evil one. We do not wage war against flesh and blood. Satan murders and deceives, and people act from corrupted desires. Justice must address crimes, yet Christians also see the spiritual battlefield beneath the headlines and respond with spiritual weapons.

## Honor God’s provision of civil authority

God grants the sword to governing authorities to restrain evil and preserve order. Pray for leaders, for investigators, and for courts to work with integrity. Seek the peace of your city. Participate wisely as a citizen. Where your vocation allows, pursue policies and practices that protect life and honor the vulnerable.

## Remember the mission of the church

The church holds a unique trust from Christ: proclaim the gospel, baptize, teach, pray, and gather at the Lord’s Table. These ordinary means are God’s chosen instruments to bring the dead to life, to free captives, to expose lies, and to build a people who shine as lights in a dark place. When the world shakes, do not abandon the ordinary for the sensational. Double down on Word, prayer, and sacrament. The wisdom of God is displayed through the church to rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

## Pastor and parent, speak to your people

* **Acknowledge reality.** Say plainly what happened and that it is evil.
* **Give language for sorrow.** Pray a psalm of lament together.
* **Point to Christ.** He entered a violent world, suffered under injustice, died, and rose. He sympathizes with the fearful and the wounded.
* **Offer concrete care.** Organize prayer, meals, and support for those affected by local incidents.
* **Guard your speech.** Refuse to dehumanize image bearers. Reject careless online posts that inflame.
* **Keep gathering.** Isolation magnifies fear. Presence with the saints strengthens faith.

## Practical steps for the week

1. **Pray daily** for victims, families, first responders, and leaders.
2. **Read and pray Psalm 10, 13, 46, or 94** as a household or small group.
3. **Invite a neighbor to church** and to your table. People are hungry for mercy and stability.
4. **Serve in your vocation** with justice and compassion. Do good work at a fair price. Protect the weak where you can.
5. **Limit doom-scrolling.** Take in enough news to pray intelligently, then set the phone down and open your Bible.
6. **Seek help** if anxiety spikes. Speak with a pastor or trusted friend. You are not alone.

## Hold fast to the sure hope

Jesus came to save sinners and to set captives free. He disarmed the powers of darkness at the cross. He reigns now and will return to make all things new. Until that day, the church bears witness to a kingdom that cannot be shaken. The world needs what only Christ gives: forgiveness, righteousness, restoration, and rest.

Come, Lord Jesus. Keep us faithful until you do.

---

### Make Repentance Great Again

*Published: October 12, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/make-repentance-great-again*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Make Repentance Great Again](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/make-repentance-great-again)

When most Christians hear the word _repent_, their stomach turns a little. For many, it brings to mind fear, guilt, or a sense of failure. The same is true when we talk about confessing sin. But repentance and confession are not meant to crush believers. They are gifts from God that bring life, freedom, and joy.

Repentance is not a punishment for Christians. It is a privilege. It is the fruit of grace at work in us. And it is one of the sweetest rhythms of life in Christ.

## The Heart of Repentance

Scripture calls repentance an _evangelical grace_. That means it comes from God’s mercy. When the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he grants us faith and repentance. We turn from sin, but more importantly, we turn toward Christ.

Every act of repentance is a fresh return to the safety of our Redeemer. It is not a way to earn his favor but a way to live in the freedom his grace has already secured. The Christian life is one of continual repentance, not because we fall in and out of God’s family, but because we belong to him and trust him to cleanse us.

Repentance is not about proving yourself. It is about looking to the One who has already done everything for you.

## The Blessing of Confession

Psalm 32 (ESV) paints a clear picture of what confession brings.

> “Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.”

David describes the misery of hiding sin: “When I kept silent, my bones wasted away.” But when he confessed, he found forgiveness and peace.

To live with “no deceit” means being honest about who we are. We do not pretend we are fine. We admit we are sinners who need grace every day. There is freedom in that honesty. It is not despairing; it is restful. We can stop pretending to be righteous and cling to the One who truly is.

Confession brings healing because God meets us there with mercy. His hand may be heavy for a moment, not to crush us, but to draw us out of hiding and into the light.

## Repentance in the Family of God

Repentance is not the door into the family of God. Faith in Christ brings us in. Repentance is how we live as children who trust our Father.

When we sin, we are not losing our adoption. We are losing sight of our Father’s goodness. Repentance is simply returning home. The Holy Spirit helps us turn our hearts back to Christ, and in that turning, our joy is renewed.

The Spirit gives us power to resist sin and to love righteousness. He is not shocked by our weakness. He is patient and gentle, always drawing our hearts to look to Christ, the author and finisher of our faith.

## Why Repentance Is Good News

Repentance produces humility. When we see our sin clearly, we grow softer toward others who struggle. We remember that we are all dependent on grace.

Repentance also deepens our love for Jesus. The more we see the ugliness of our sin, the more we see the beauty of the cross. The more we feel our need, the more we cherish his mercy.

The Lord delights in forgiving. Scripture says there is joy in heaven over one sinner who repents. God is not angry when his children come home. He rejoices.

## Daily Repentance, Daily Rest

Christians live in two realities at once. We are justified and forgiven, yet we still battle sin. Our repentance will never be perfect, but our Savior’s grace always is.

Repentance is not about despair. It is about dependence. It is the daily rhythm of turning from sin and resting again in Christ’s finished work.

The cross is big enough for every sin we confess. The blood of Jesus never runs out. His forgiveness is not a single event in the past; it is a present reality that renews us every day.

## The Joy of Returning

God’s kindness leads us to repentance. His mercy never tires. When we turn to him again and again, we are reminded that our relationship with him is secure.

Thomas Watson once said, “As our sin is ever before us, so God’s promises must ever be before us.” Repentance keeps both in view: the depth of our need and the height of his grace.

So we repent not to earn forgiveness but to enjoy it. We confess not to avoid rejection but to remember that we are already accepted. Repentance is not a fearful word for Christians. It is a hopeful one.

Let’s make repentance great again—because every time we turn to Christ, we find mercy waiting for us.

---

### Christless “Expository” Preaching

*Published: October 11, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/christless-expository-preaching*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Christless “Expository” Preaching](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/christless-expository-preaching)

For decades, expository preaching has been the standard many pastors have aimed to uphold. In many ways, that has been a good thing. It brought a renewed seriousness to the pulpit, a return to opening the Bible, and a focus on explaining what the text actually says. But we need to ask a deeper question: what makes preaching truly Christian?

If a sermon explains the text accurately yet never heralds Christ for sinners, it may be expository, but it is not biblical. The New Testament is clear. Preaching is meant to proclaim the person and work of Jesus Christ from all of Scripture. Anything less fails to fulfill what God intends for his Word.

## What Preaching Really Is

The word “expository” means to explain or expound. That is a good and biblical aim. But explaining the Bible is not the same thing as preaching Christ. Teaching may focus on information, background, and context. Preaching is proclamation. It is the public heralding of Christ as Savior, Lord, and Redeemer.

When the church gathers on the Lord’s Day, we come to hear good news. We do not come to receive data or moral instructions. The church comes to hear Christ proclaimed from the whole of Scripture. The preacher’s task is not simply to describe the meaning of a passage, but to show how that passage reveals the person and work of Jesus.

## The Problem with “Running Commentary” Sermons

Many sermons today sound more like lectures. The preacher walks through each verse, explaining words and grammar, but never lifting the listener’s eyes to Christ. It may sound reverent and serious, but it leaves the hearer without hope.

The apostles never preached that way. Every sermon recorded in the book of Acts—from Peter at Pentecost to Paul in Antioch—ends with Christ. Their exposition of Scripture always moves toward the Redeemer who fulfills it.

If our preaching does not reach that point, it stops short of the gospel. It may fill minds with facts but will leave hearts unchanged.

## The Apostolic Pattern

Paul wrote, “We preach Christ crucified.” He did not say, “We preach Scripture explained.” He proclaimed Jesus from all of Scripture. In 1 Corinthians 2:2 he declared, “I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.”

That same message runs throughout his letters. He tells the Colossians, “Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ.”

Maturity does not come from biblical data alone. It comes from faith in Christ. And faith comes through hearing the message of Christ (Romans 10:17). The power of preaching lies not in eloquence or precision but in the Spirit working through the proclamation of the Savior.

## The True Meaning of Exposition

When Jesus met the disciples on the road to Emmaus, he explained the Scriptures to them, beginning with Moses and the prophets. He showed them that everything written was about him. Their hearts burned within them as he opened the Scriptures. That is the model for every faithful expositor.

The greatest commentary on the Old Testament is not found in academic books. It is found in the New Testament, where Jesus and the apostles reveal how the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms point to the Redeemer.

Faithful exposition does not skip this. It embraces it. Every text finds its ultimate meaning in Christ: his person, his work, his grace, and his promises.

## Why This Matters

A sermon that never reaches Christ is not just incomplete. It withholds life. The Word of God is meant to reveal the glory of the Son. Without him, Scripture becomes a closed book. The Pharisees searched the Scriptures, thinking they could find life in them, yet Jesus said they refused to come to him.

Preaching is not about mastering biblical details. It is about proclaiming the one who fulfills them. The preacher’s job is to lead weary sinners to rest in Christ, to hold out his sufficiency, his righteousness, his mercy, and his finished work.

## All of Christ for All of Life

The Bible is not a collection of moral lessons. It is the story of redemption, beginning in Genesis and fulfilled in the person of Jesus. Every law, every promise, every sacrifice, and every shadow finds its end in him.

That is why the church gathers each week, to see Christ. When the Word is preached rightly, the people of God leave strengthened in faith, not because they learned new information, but because they beheld their Savior.

Christless exposition may sound faithful, but it leaves the soul hungry. True expository preaching feeds the flock with Christ himself, the one who loves sinners and gave himself for them.

---

### Stop Dehumanizing Jesus

*Published: October 10, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/stop-dehumanizing-jesus*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Stop Dehumanizing Jesus](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/stop-dehumanizing-jesus)

Many Christians affirm that Jesus is God but struggle to grasp that he is also truly human. Scripture tells us that he grew in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man. That single verse can unsettle us because it reveals that the Son of God did not only take on flesh. He lived the full experience of human life.

If that thought feels uncomfortable, we need to pause and consider what the Bible is showing us. Jesus of Nazareth is not a distant figure of divine power. He is a man of feeling. He is compassionate, merciful, and gentle. And the reason he can meet us with such sympathy is because he is one of us.

## The Humanity of Christ Matters

The church throughout history has often emphasized the deity of Jesus when it was being denied, and that emphasis was right. But in doing so, many have forgotten to speak clearly about his humanity. Jesus is not part God and part man. He is fully God and fully man, two complete natures united in one person.

Luke 2:52 tells us that Jesus grew in wisdom and favor with God. Hebrews 5:8 says he learned obedience through suffering. These verses do not lessen his divinity. They reveal the depth of his humanity. As a real man, he walked the road we walk, faced the trials we face, and endured every kind of sorrow.

He knows what it means to be tired, hungry, betrayed, and grieved. He knows temptation. He knows pain. He knows the burden of obedience. Yet he never sinned. He lived as the true man who loved God perfectly and loved others completely.

## The God Who Humanized Himself

Sometimes people worry that talking about the humanity of Christ will make him seem less divine. But God himself chose to take on human flesh. The eternal Son entered time and space to redeem those who bear his image. There is now a man who sits on the throne of God.

Through the incarnation, God revealed his heart in human form. “No one has ever seen God,” John writes, “but the one and only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.” We know what God is like because we have seen Jesus.

The one who walked among us shows us the heart of God. He healed the sick, forgave the guilty, touched the unclean, and wept with the grieving. He came to those who had been forgotten and broken. He spoke words of life and compassion to those who thought they had no hope left.

## A Compassionate Savior

From the beginning, God has revealed himself as merciful. In the garden, when Adam and Eve fell, the Lord came to them, spoke promise to them, and clothed their shame. To Hagar, abandoned in the wilderness, he came as the God who sees. Throughout Scripture, God is shown as one who comes to sinners and sufferers with compassion.

That same God came to us in Jesus Christ. He did not simply watch human sorrow from afar. He entered it. He lived among pain, loss, betrayal, and death. When he saw Mary and Martha weeping for their brother, he was deeply moved. He wept with them. That moment in John 11 is not incidental. It reveals the heart of the Savior who grieves with those who grieve and loves those who suffer.

He is not cold or detached. He is the Lord who feels deeply for his people. His compassion is not theoretical. It is personal. He sympathizes with us in every weakness and meets us with grace.

## Forsaken for Our Sake

At the cross, Jesus endured the full weight of our sin. As God, he remained one with the Father. As man, he was forsaken for our sake. He bore the curse that belonged to us so that we might never be separated from God.

When he cried out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” he was entering into the deepest human despair. He was standing where we should stand, feeling what we should feel. And because he was forsaken, we will never be.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus because he has already carried that separation for us.

## The Humanity That Comforts Us

We need a Savior who is both divine and human. As God, he is able to save. As man, he is able to sympathize. He is the one who obeyed perfectly in our place, and he is the one who understands every weakness we face.

When we grieve, he knows what grief feels like. When we are tempted, he knows the struggle. When we pray in confusion and pain, he listens as one who has lived in our world and suffered for our redemption.

Christ is not distant from our suffering. He meets us in it. He weeps with us, carries us, and comforts us.

## The Wonder of the Incarnation

The incarnation is not only a doctrine to defend. It is the heartbeat of our comfort and assurance. The eternal Son became a man to reveal God’s love in a way we could see, touch, and understand.

Our Savior is divine, holy, and sovereign. He is also human, gentle, and near. He understands the pain of this world and has conquered it.

So when you are weary and heavy laden, hear his invitation: “Come to me, and I will give you rest.”

The one who calls you is God himself, and he is also the man who knows your pain.

That is the kind of Savior we have.

---

### "Accurate" Yet Empty: The Problem with Theological Lectures

*Published: October 9, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/accurate-yet-empty-the-problem-with-theological-lectures*

This article is a summary of the following episode: ["Accurate" Yet Empty: The Problem with Theological Lectures](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/accurate-yet-empty-the-problem-with-theological-lectures)

Many sermons today are filled with careful exposition, accurate grammar, and precise theology, but they miss the one thing that gives the Word life—Jesus Christ.

We can preach with clarity, trace the verbs and nouns of a passage, explain the historical background, and even define the original Greek words. But if our conclusion is not Christ for sinners, we have stopped short of the very point of Scripture. A sermon may be technically correct, but it can still be empty.

## Preaching That Moves the Heart

When Jesus walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus, he explained the Scriptures to them beginning with Moses and the prophets. He showed them that everything written was about him. As they listened, their hearts burned within them. That is what faithful exposition does. It reveals Christ in such a way that the Spirit opens our eyes and warms our hearts toward him.

When preaching or teaching fails to do this, it may sound accurate, but it lacks life. True expository preaching does not simply explain the text. It heralds the Redeemer who is present in it.

## The Scriptures Testify About Him

Jesus told the religious leaders in John 5 that they searched the Scriptures because they thought the Scriptures themselves gave life. He told them plainly that the Scriptures testify about him. They knew the text, but they did not know the Savior.

This warning is still needed. It is possible to handle the Bible with skill and yet miss the Son of God who is speaking through it. Preaching that only delivers information leaves people cold and weary. Preaching that delivers Christ revives and sustains.

## The Apostolic Pattern

The apostles understood this. Every sermon we have recorded in Acts centers on Christ. Peter at Pentecost proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus as the fulfillment of the Psalms. Paul in Antioch connected the entire Old Testament to the risen Redeemer who frees us from sin.

Paul summarized his ministry this way: “We preach Christ crucified.” When he wrote to the Corinthians, he said he resolved to know nothing among them except Jesus Christ and him crucified. His message was not moral improvement or religious philosophy. It was Christ for sinners.

The same pattern appears in Romans. Paul begins by saying the gospel was promised through the prophets in the Scriptures concerning God’s Son. He ends by saying that the preaching of Christ brings about the obedience of faith. The Bible’s aim from beginning to end is to reveal Jesus as the fulfillment of God’s promises and the source of life.

## Doctrine That Leads to Christ

Sound doctrine matters deeply. It protects the church, strengthens faith, and keeps us grounded in truth. But doctrine is never an end in itself. Its purpose is to make Jesus clear. Every teaching of Scripture should lead to the comfort, assurance, and joy found in him.

When we preach about God’s attributes, his holiness, or his sovereignty, those truths should draw us to worship Christ who embodies them perfectly. When we teach about sin, the law, or obedience, those truths should lead us to the cross where the law’s demands are satisfied and grace overflows.

## Preaching With Life

The difference between a theological lecture and a sermon is not the level of accuracy but the presence of Christ. Preaching is proclamation. It announces good news. It calls the weary to rest in the finished work of the Redeemer.

The prophets longed to see what we now know. They spoke of the grace that was to come, searching carefully to understand the person and work of the Messiah. The angels themselves long to look into these things. Every passage, every promise, every picture in Scripture finds its fulfillment in him.

When preachers proclaim the text without Christ, they place a veil back over the hearts of their hearers. When they proclaim Christ from the text, the Spirit lifts that veil and gives life.

## Christ, the Heart of Every Sermon

If a sermon ends with moral effort or self-reflection, it leaves the listener weary. If a sermon ends with Jesus, it leaves the listener resting in his finished work. That is why Paul said, “Him we proclaim.”

Faith does not come by hearing information. Faith comes by hearing the message of Christ.

So we keep preaching him—his cross, his resurrection, his compassion, his promises, and his return. Every page of Scripture leads us there. Every weary heart needs that hope.

Without Christ, even the most accurate sermon is empty. With him, even the simplest message is full of life.

---

### In the Beginning, Jesus...

*Published: October 8, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/in-the-beginning-jesus*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [In the Beginning, Jesus...](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/in-the-beginning-jesus)

When most people open Genesis or Exodus, they think of creation, evolution, or the flood. But those opening books are not first about scientific arguments or historical curiosities. They are about Christ. From the first words of Scripture to the final page, the story has always been about Jesus. The Redeemer who was there from the beginning.

When we read Genesis and Exodus with that lens, everything changes. We begin to see the glory of God’s grace, his covenant love, and his plan of redemption unfold long before the manger in Bethlehem.

## Christ in the Beginning

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” Those words introduce us to the triune God who made all things. The Father speaks, the Spirit hovers over the waters, and the Son acts as the divine Word through whom all things were made. John 1 tells us that nothing was made apart from him.

That means the voice that said “Let there be light” was the same voice that cried out, “It is finished.” The Son of God who spoke creation into being is the same Lord who entered it to redeem it.

Even in the garden, the presence of Jesus is clear. Genesis says the Lord walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the day. When they sinned, it was the Son who sought them. He called out, “Where are you?” and covered their shame with garments. From the very beginning, he was revealing himself as the Redeemer.

## The Promise of the Seed

When the curse fell, God spoke a promise. The seed of the woman would crush the serpent’s head. That promise came from the lips of the Son himself. The Redeemer was announcing what he would one day accomplish.

The entire story of Scripture unfolds from that moment. Every generation, every covenant, and every shadow points forward to the One who would fulfill it all.

## Christ in the Shadows

The Old Testament is filled with glimpses of Jesus. He appears as the angel of the Lord, the messenger who is also divine. Hagar met him in the wilderness and called him “the God who sees me.” Jacob wrestled with him through the night and walked away changed. Moses spoke with him at the burning bush.

Even the ark of Noah points to Christ. In that story, judgment falls on the earth, yet those who are hidden in the ark are carried safely through. The same is true for everyone who is hidden in Christ.

The pattern continues in Exodus. The Passover lamb, whose blood covers the people from death, prefigures the blood of Christ that shields us from judgment. The crossing of the Red Sea shows the people of God passing through the waters while their enemies are destroyed. Paul says this, too, was Christ at work—leading his people and saving them.

When manna fell from heaven and water came from the rock, God was teaching Israel to depend on him alone. Jesus would later say, “I am the bread of life.” Paul writes that the rock that gave them drink was Christ.

Every symbol, every act of deliverance, and every covenant promise whispers his name.

## The Presence of the Redeemer

At Mount Sinai, the same God who gave the law would later fulfill it. The one who descended in fire and smoke is the one who would descend again in humility and take on flesh. When God revealed his name to Moses—“The Lord, the Lord, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love”—that was the Son speaking.

The tabernacle, too, points us to Jesus. God’s glory filled the tent where atonement was made through the blood of sacrifice. Christ is the true tabernacle. He is the high priest who carries his people on his heart and shoulders, and he is the final sacrifice whose blood has made permanent peace.

## Christ for His People

When the angel of the Lord led Israel through the wilderness, it was Jesus who went before them. The same Lord who conquered the nations and brought them into the promised land will one day lead his people into the new creation.

Every page of Genesis and Exodus shows us the mercy and faithfulness of God through his Son. He creates, sustains, redeems, and dwells among his people. From the first promise in Eden to the cloud of glory over the tabernacle, Christ has always been present, always working for the good of those who belong to him.

## The Comfort of Christ in All Scripture

Seeing Jesus in the Old Testament is not a theological exercise. It is a comfort to weary hearts. The same Savior who spoke the world into being is the one who sustains it today. He has always been faithful to his people, and he always will be.

When we read Genesis and Exodus, we are not reading ancient myths or moral lessons. We are reading the beginning of the gospel story. The Redeemer has been there from the start, and he will be there at the end.

From creation to covenant, from promise to fulfillment, the message is the same: Jesus was present from the beginning.

---

### No Damascus Road? No Problem.

*Published: September 23, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/no-damascus-road-no-problem*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [No Damascus Road? No Problem.](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/no-damascus-road-no-problem)

Many believers wrestle with their testimonies. Some quietly think, “I don’t have an exciting story. I never had a dramatic conversion moment, so maybe my faith isn’t real.” Others assume that only those who have wrecked their lives in visible ways can truly understand grace. Both ways of thinking miss the point and create unnecessary burdens.

The good news of the gospel is not about the drama of our story. It is about the sufficiency of Christ. Whether you grew up in a Christian home or came to faith late in life, your testimony is not about you but about him.

## All of Us Need the Same Grace

Scripture makes this clear. In Adam, all are condemned. By nature, we are children of wrath. Whether your sins look spectacular or ordinary, the result is the same. You are either in Adam or in Christ. There is no middle ground.

James 2:10 reminds us that whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point is guilty of breaking all of it. Violation of the law in any measure brings condemnation. Paul echoes this truth in Romans and Ephesians: all have sinned, all are ruined, and all need the righteousness of Christ.

This means that every believer, regardless of their past, stands before God clothed in the same grace.

## The Danger of Ranking Testimonies

When we elevate certain stories as “better” than others, we distort the gospel. It creates a subtle form of self-righteousness. Some boast in their dramatic rescue, while others feel ashamed of their “ordinary” story. Both perspectives miss the heart of salvation.

Grace is not measured by the amount of sin you committed before believing. Grace is measured by the holiness of God and the magnitude of Christ’s work. Every Christian has been raised from death to life. That is always miraculous.

## The Same Savior for All

Paul himself illustrates this in 1 Timothy 1:15–16. He calls himself the foremost of sinners, but his conclusion is not that others cannot understand grace like he does. Instead, he points to the mercy and patience of Jesus as proof that Christ will be merciful to all who believe.

The thief on the cross and Timothy, raised in the faith from childhood, both stand in the same grace. Both are loved by God with the same love. Both are preserved by the same power of the Spirit. Both will reign with Christ forever.

## Freedom From the Lie

The enemy loves to whisper lies: “Your life is too ordinary to matter,” or “You have blown it too badly for God to use you.” Both are false. The gospel answers with truth. If you are in Christ, you are forgiven, clothed in righteousness, adopted as a child, and indwelt by the Spirit.

You do not need a spectacular testimony to rejoice in grace. You only need Jesus, and he is enough.

## The Wonder of Amazing Grace

Every believer can sing “Amazing Grace” with tears in their eyes. The miracle is not found in how low you sank or how ordinary your life appeared. The miracle is that God loved you, gave his Son for you, and brought you from death to life.

So rejoice in your testimony, whatever shape it takes. It is the story of God’s mercy. It is the story of Christ’s finished work. And that is always worth telling.

---

### Deliverance from Trials Is Never Promised

*Published: September 22, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/deliverance-from-trials-is-never-promised*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Deliverance from Trials Is Never Promised](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/deliverance-from-trials-is-never-promised)

Many of us have prayed the prayer of Paul. “Lord, please take this away from me.” Not once but many times. It can feel exhausting and confusing when the trial does not go away. For some, it even brings doubt. Does God care? Is he listening?

This conversation matters because we need to be reminded of what God has actually promised us in Christ. The gospel is not transactional. His love does not hinge on removing our hardships. His grace is what sustains us in them.

## God Has Not Promised Deliverance From Trials

Jesus told his disciples that in this life we would have trouble. The apostles echo the same message in nearly every letter of the New Testament. Suffering is not strange for the believer. It is expected. The church has always lived under the weight of a cross in a world at war.

Peter says not to be surprised when fiery trials come upon you. Paul speaks of his own experience in 2 Corinthians 12 when he pleaded with the Lord three times to take away his thorn. The answer he received is the same word that comes to us: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

The Lord has never promised to deliver us from every pain or to protect us from every sorrow in this life. What he has promised is his presence and his sustaining grace.

## Grace for Today

Grace is not an abstract idea. It is the supernatural strength of God at work in us. Ephesians 3 says that we are strengthened with power through his Spirit in our inner being so that we may know the love of Christ. That is the grace we need most. In trials, God wants us to see and believe that his love is wide, long, high, and deep.

Paul’s words in Philippians 4 remind us of this reality. He had learned the secret of facing abundance and hunger, plenty and need. He could endure all things through Christ who strengthened him. That same Christ strengthens us.

## Honest Prayers

God invites us to speak to him honestly in our suffering. The Psalms give us language for our groaning. Job cried out in confusion. Paul admitted his pleading. The Lord is not offended when his children come to him with their fears, frustrations, and tears. To bring our pain to God is not unbelief. It is faith.

Hebrews 4 tells us to come boldly to the throne of grace to receive mercy and find help in time of need. Prayer is not a transaction but the open approach of children to their Father. He promises grace, and he gives it freely.

## What God Is Doing in Our Trials

We cannot always say why a particular trial is happening. Scripture does not allow us to presume on God’s providence. Yet we can say with confidence what he is producing in us. James 1 tells us that trials test our faith and produce steadfastness. The result is maturity.

The trial itself is not good. Disease, death, and suffering are fruits of the curse. But the Lord uses them to work perseverance and hope in us. When we endure through tears and weakness by trusting in Christ, steadfastness is being formed.

## The Love of God Is Not Transactional

God’s love for us is not based on what we offer him. It is one-way love. He loved us when we were his enemies. He sent his Son as the propitiation for our sins. His love is not conditioned on our performance, and it is not withdrawn when we struggle.

This truth anchors us in trials. We may doubt. We may feel forgotten. Yet God’s steadfast love never changes. He has bound himself to us in Christ, and nothing can separate us from that love.

## The Hope That Awaits

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15 that if our hope in Christ is for this life only, we are to be pitied. Our hope is not limited to relief here and now. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. One day death will be swallowed up in victory. Until then, we live in weakness and trust in the sufficiency of Christ.

This hope shapes how we endure. We do not live as those without purpose. The Lord is rescuing his people through the proclamation of the gospel, and he uses us in that mission. In our weakness, his strength is seen.

## Grace for Weary Pilgrims

Deliverance from trials in this life is never promised. What is promised is something better: the presence of Christ, the grace of God that sustains us, and the hope of glory that awaits us.

Dear saint, your suffering is not meaningless. The Lord has not forgotten you. He is with you. His grace is sufficient for you. And one day soon, faith will give way to sight and sorrow will be no more.

---

### The Re-Purposed Driven Life

*Published: August 15, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-re-purposed-driven-life*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [The Re-Purposed Driven Life](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-re-purposed-driven-life)

Last week we talked about what it means to be tired in this fallen world. We looked at the reality of life as saints who are also sinners, and how we often imagine that one day things will be easier. That day never comes in this life. This week is about the “now what?” question. If the Christian life is marked by weakness and struggle, what do we do with that? How do we live in light of it?

This is a deeply personal question for us. We do not wake up every day thinking with perfect perspective. But we know where our hope is found, and we want to point each other back to it. Scripture calls us to lift our eyes off of the things that are seen and set them on the things that are unseen. We are physical people, and we are trained by nature to live by sight. But the Lord tells us to live by faith, to see with the eyes of the heart.

Paul’s words in Colossians 3 are a beautiful starting point:

> If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

This is our reality in Christ. We have died with him, and our lives are hidden with him in God. When he returns, we will appear with him in glory. This perspective is what shapes how we live now.

## Children of God

We are not merely servants in the kingdom of God. We are his children. That title changes everything. A child approaches a loving father with confidence, not fear. God is more inclined to give us mercy and grace because we belong to him. This identity is meant to steady us, especially when we are weak.

## Temples of the Holy Spirit

Paul tells us that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament, God’s presence was confined to the Holy of Holies, approached only once a year by the high priest. Now that same Spirit dwells in us. The presence and power that once filled the tabernacle now fills his people. This is both humbling and empowering. When we speak the truth of the gospel, the Spirit works through us.

## Ambassadors for Christ

Every believer has been sent into the world as an ambassador of Christ. We are citizens of another kingdom, representing our King in the midst of a dark and broken world. The work is not just for pastors or missionaries. God places his people in homes, neighborhoods, workplaces, and communities as his representatives.

Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 10 that the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. Through the truth of the gospel, God tears down the lies and arguments that keep people from him. This is his work, and he does it through weak vessels so that his power is clearly seen.

## Hope That Fuels Perseverance

Living with this identity and purpose changes how we face suffering. We know that our labor is not in vain because Christ has already won the victory. The resurrection guarantees our future. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15, the mortal will put on immortality, death will be swallowed up in victory, and the sting of death will be gone. Until that day, we labor with hope, knowing that Christ is building his kingdom.

## The Perspective of the Kingdom

The world we live in is scarred by the war of sin and death. Jesus has already won, and now we go into the enemy’s territory to rescue those who are still enslaved. The gates of hell cannot keep us out because Christ has broken them. He is preparing a place for us, and he will return to make all things new. In the meantime, we proclaim the gospel and comfort one another. This is why the gathering of the church matters so much. We need encouragement, discipleship, and restoration so that we can continue in the work God has given us.

## You Matter

If you are alive today, God has work for you. No believer is insignificant in his kingdom. Whether your influence feels large or small, you carry the light of Christ into dark places. You are his child, his temple, his ambassador. Every act of kindness, every conversation about Jesus, every prayer is a part of his work to draw people from darkness into light.

## The Life to Come

Our ultimate hope is not in this life but in the life to come. The resurrection of Jesus guarantees our resurrection. One day we will be with him, free from sin and sorrow, and joy will be our constant reality. This hope shapes how we live today. It steadies us in suffering and strengthens us in service.

Until that day, we wake up each morning knowing that Christ is with us and working through us. Our labor is not in vain. We live, serve, and suffer with the certain hope that the King is coming, and when he does, everything will be made new.

---

### Jesus Knows You’re Tired

*Published: August 13, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/jesus-knows-you-re-tired*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [Jesus Knows You're Tired](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/jesus-knows-youre-tired)

Life in a fallen world is often exhausting. Many of us carry the quiet hope that one day things will get easier. We imagine a time when the trials will be lighter, the struggles will fade, and our hearts will finally feel at rest. But the Scriptures never promise that kind of ease in this life. Instead, they prepare us for the reality of suffering, weakness, and ongoing battle with sin. They also give us a greater hope to carry us through it.

This is not just a pastoral truth. It is personal. We feel it in our own lives, in ministry, and in our relationships. If we feel it, you probably do too. So hear this: you are not alone. You are not losing your mind. Christ knows what you are facing, and he is faithful.

## The Lie of Arrival

One of the quiet lies we can believe is that if we just grow enough in our faith, learn enough theology, and live with enough intentionality, we will eventually reach a place where life is smooth and the difficulties feel lighter. It is a subtle form of prosperity thinking, and it leaves us vulnerable to disappointment and doubt.

When the trials come, and they always do, we can start to question ourselves and even question God. We wonder if we belong to Christ at all, or if God is as faithful as he says. The Bible tells us to expect difficulty. Peter warns us not to be surprised by fiery trials as though something strange were happening. Paul says that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character. These truths reframe how we see hardship. Trials are not evidence that God has abandoned us. They are opportunities to learn that his grace is sufficient.

## Suffering and Weakness

The apostles never hide the reality of suffering. Paul describes God as “the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction.” He does not promise to remove the affliction. He promises to meet us in it. That is the heart of our hope, not that God will make life easy, but that he will sustain us through every season.

Peter says that trials prove the genuineness of our faith and result in praise and glory for Christ. When life is hard, we find ourselves leaning more on Jesus. We rely on his strength, his love, his promises, and his sufficiency. This deepens our joy and confidence in him, even when our circumstances feel like they are draining the life out of us.

## The Ongoing Fight Against Sin

There is another kind of weariness that every believer knows, the ongoing struggle with sin. Scripture says that we are both justified and still sinners. We are clothed in Christ’s righteousness, fully forgiven, and at peace with God. Yet we still carry the old nature, and our flesh still desires what is contrary to the Spirit.

This means that temptation is never far away. Sometimes the fight feels easier. Sometimes it feels harder than ever. And that is normal. The Christian life is not a steady climb toward effortless holiness. The flesh and the Spirit are opposed to each other, and this battle will not end until we see Christ face to face.

Paul’s counsel is clear: “Walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.” The desires may still be there, but the Spirit empowers us to resist them. We depend on Christ daily for strength, knowing that without him, we would give in.

## The Reality in the Church

This tiredness is not just personal. It is communal. Churches are full of redeemed sinners who still wrestle with sin and weakness. Even healthy congregations experience conflict, hurt, and disappointment. The New Testament churches did too. Faithful ministry does not eliminate problems. If anything, faithful gospel work often stirs up opposition, because it presses against the kingdom of darkness.

This should not lead us to despair but to prayer. Pray for your church. Pray for unity, for humility, for perseverance in the truth. Pray for your pastors, who feel the weight of these realities as they shepherd the flock.

## Our Certain Hope

The Christian life is shaped by the cross. Jesus was crucified before he was raised, and we follow him in that pattern. We carry weakness, we bear suffering, and we keep fighting sin. We do all of it with our eyes fixed on him, knowing that our hope is not in this life but in the life to come.

One day, the fight will be over. The suffering will end. The old nature will be gone. Until then, we take our tiredness to Jesus. We remind one another that his grace is sufficient and that he will finish the good work he began in us. He knows our weakness. He is not ashamed of us. And he will bring us safely home.

---

### How Satan Attacks Christians Today

*Published: August 11, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/how-satan-attacks-christians-today*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [How Satan Attacks Christians Today](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-satan-attacks-christians-today)

Scripture speaks often of the world, the flesh, and the devil. These are not abstract categories. They describe active enemies that wage war against the people of God. One of Satan’s chief aims is to obscure the clarity of the gospel and to destroy love and unity within the church.

James 4 addresses this directly. The believers James wrote to were tearing each other down with their words, acting out of selfish ambition and pride. They wanted the acceptance of the world, and their relationships in the church were marked by conflict. James confronts them strongly, calling this “friendship with the world” and warning that it makes them act as enemies of God. But he does not leave them crushed under condemnation. He reminds them that God “gives more grace” and calls them to humility.

Then James gives an important instruction: “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” This is not superstition or empty rhetoric. It is a sober reminder that behind the world’s influence and the passions of the flesh, there is also an enemy who delights in division and pride. When believers submit to the Lord and walk in humility, they are resisting the schemes of Satan.

## Satan’s Goals in the Church

The devil cannot take a believer out of Christ’s hand. But he can cause believers to turn on one another. He can divide a congregation and cloud the message of the gospel. This is why the apostles spend so much time in their letters on two main themes: the clarity of the good news in Christ and the call to love and unity in the body.

Where the gospel is obscured, hope fades. Where unity is broken, the witness of the church is damaged. Satan aims to achieve both outcomes.

## The Devil’s Playground

Ephesians 4 sheds more light on how Satan works. Paul warns believers not to give the devil an opportunity. In context, he is talking about anger, corrupting talk, bitterness, wrath, clamor, slander, and malice. These are not small matters. They grieve the Holy Spirit and destroy fellowship.

Paul calls the church instead to kindness, tender hearts, and forgiveness. These attitudes reflect the gospel itself, as God in Christ has forgiven us. When these virtues are absent, the devil gains influence and the Spirit’s work is resisted.

## A Call to Vigilance

Jesus prayed for his people to be protected from the evil one. He taught his disciples to pray, “Deliver us from the evil one.” Peter warned that the devil prowls like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. The New Testament writers were concerned about Satan’s influence because they knew his strategies.

Often, his work is not dramatic or sensational. In many churches, his most effective tactic is to stir up pride, anger, and suspicion among believers. If he can enslave Christians to sin or turn them against each other, the power of the gospel is muted in that place.

## Guarding the Gospel and Our Unity

Every believer has a role to play in resisting these attacks. We are to hold fast to the sufficiency of Christ, keeping the message of grace clear and free from additions. We are to pray for the Lord’s protection, asking him to keep us from the cravings of the flesh and the lies of the enemy.

We are to practice humility, kindness, and forgiveness in our relationships within the church. The local congregation should be a place of safety, mercy, and rest. When we sin against each other, we are to be quick to confess and quick to extend grace.

## The Role of the Church

The ministry of the church is meant to nourish and protect pilgrims on the way to our heavenly homeland. We are not there yet, and the road is filled with dangers. We need the regular preaching of Christ, the sacraments, the prayers of the saints, and the fellowship of believers. These are the means God has given to strengthen and safeguard his people.

A faithful church guards sound doctrine and works to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. It is vigilant against the schemes of the devil, not out of fear, but out of confidence in Christ’s promise to preserve his people.

## Our Hope

Satan’s goal is to draw believers away from the gospel, because the gospel is the greatest treasure we have. We resist him by submitting to God, resting in his grace, and loving one another well.

Christ has already won the victory. He will keep his people to the end. As we fix our eyes on him, we can walk together in truth and unity, confident that the God of peace will soon crush Satan under our feet.

---

### White-Knuckled American Sanctification

*Published: August 8, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/white-knuckled-american-sanctification*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [White-Knuckled American Sanctification](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/white-knuckled-american-sanctification)

When most people hear the word _sanctification_, they don’t think of peace or joy. They think of pressure. Of effort. Of failure. It feels more like a trip to the DMV than walking with the Lord. There is dread, fear, guilt, and a gnawing sense that they are never doing enough. Sadly, this is the version of sanctification many of us have inherited.

This did not come out of nowhere. It has roots in two powerful movements that have shaped American Christianity for generations: _pietism_ and _revivalism_. These movements have deeply impacted how sanctification is preached, practiced, and pursued. If we are honest, they have turned it into something exhausting and unsustainable.

It is time we recover something better.

## What Is Pietism?

At its core, pietism makes the Christian life revolve around the Christian. The emphasis shifts away from Christ and his sufficiency, and instead lands on personal performance. Affections, effort, and growth become the central focus. The gaze turns inward. The goal becomes measurable spiritual progress.

Piety itself is good. Scripture calls us to godliness and maturity in Christ. But pietism alters the focus. It becomes overly introspective. People begin to measure their faith by how deeply they feel things, how consistently they obey, or how sincere their repentance seems. The eyes turn away from Christ and fix on self.

That is a heavy burden to carry.

## What Is Revivalism?

Revivalism is closely connected. It arose to stir spiritual renewal, but over time it became a method. The idea developed that, if the right mood is created through music, emotional appeals, or passionate preaching, then a spiritual result can be produced.

This led to practices like the anxious bench and the altar call. The measure of faith became a personal experience: a decision, a tearful moment, or a dramatic commitment. The weekly church gathering began to lose its place. The focus shifted to special events designed to produce visible results.

Revivalism does not ask whether Christ is being faithfully proclaimed through the ordinary means of grace. It asks whether the methods are producing the intended emotional effect.

## The Damage to Sanctification

Pietism and revivalism have reshaped how we think about sanctification. Growth in godliness is no longer grounded in the finished work of Christ. It becomes a personal project. Self-evaluation and effort define the journey. Obedience turns into performance. Conviction gives way to shame. Repentance becomes a burden. Joy fades.

We end up white-knuckling our way through the Christian life.

Many of us have felt this firsthand. We spiral into guilt when we fail. We try to prove our sincerity by how badly we feel. We measure growth by intensity. And grace begins to feel like a background idea instead of the foundation under our feet.

This is not what Scripture holds out to us.

## A Different Kind of Sanctification

Biblical sanctification begins with union with Christ. It is God’s work in us. We grow because we belong to Jesus. We grow because the Spirit is at work. This growth is steady and quiet. It is often unseen. It is entirely dependent on grace.

The New Testament calls us to discipline and obedience. We pursue holiness, but not to earn anything. Not to secure our place. We obey as those who are already loved, already accepted, and already safe in Christ.

The Christian life is not sustained by pressure. It is carried forward by promise.

## Replacing Joy with Duty

Pietism and revivalism create a cycle of pride and despair. If you think you are doing well, pride creeps in. If you are failing, despair takes over. Either way, your eyes are on yourself.

Joy disappears. Prayer turns into a performance. Bible reading becomes a spiritual scoreboard. Obedience becomes a weight. Even the fruit of the Spirit gets reduced to a checklist.

This is not how God grows his children.

## What We Need Instead

We need to remember that God is faithful. He began the work, and he will complete it. Jesus is not ashamed of us. The Father is not tired of us. The Spirit has not given up on us.

We need to return to the ordinary means of grace. We gather under the preached Word. We come to the Table. We join our voices in prayer and song. These are not routine. These are the ways God meets with his people and nourishes them.

Sanctification is not our burden to carry. It is the fruit of being united to Christ.

## Living as the Weak and the Loved

Sanctification is not about proving our value. It is about learning to depend more fully on Jesus. It is about walking in weakness and resting in grace.

The New Testament does not tell us to ask whether we are doing enough. It calls us to examine whether we are trusting in Christ. The question is not how fast we are growing. The question is whether we are clinging to Jesus.

When we sin, we don’t need to spiral into guilt. We confess. We grieve. We believe the gospel again. That is the road to real growth.

## Confessional Clarity

Confessional theology helps us recover a healthy view of sanctification. The 1689 London Baptist Confession keeps the gospel clear and the Christian life grounded in grace. It gives us categories to understand what God is doing in us.

We are not aiming to impress. We are learning to walk by faith, rest in Christ, and love our neighbor.

## A Final Word

Sanctification is not something we achieve on our own. It happens in the context of the church. It happens as we gather to hear Christ proclaimed. It happens through the Word, the sacraments, and the shared life of the saints.

We keep showing up. We keep receiving. We trust the Spirit is working in us. We may not always feel it, but we know he is faithful.

There is peace here. There is rest. And there is joy.

Let’s recover that joy together.

---

### The Suspicion of Experience

*Published: August 7, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-suspicion-of-experience*

This article is a summary of the following episode: [The Suspicion of Experience](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-suspicion-of-experience)

_Why the Christian Life Is Deeply Supernatural_

Many of us who have been shaped by the Reformed tradition feel hesitant when it comes to the word “experience.” It can bring to mind emotional hype, theological compromise, or practices we associate with other traditions.

Because of this, we often avoid anything that seems subjective or rooted in feeling. The goal is to stay grounded in the truth. But in avoiding what feels risky, we sometimes forget something essential about the Christian life. It is not mechanical religion. It is life in Christ. It is not simply belief in the right doctrines. It is also participation in what God is doing by grace, through faith, in real time.

Let’s consider how the Christian life is meant to be experienced.

## Faith Is Supernatural

We do not live the Christian life through our natural abilities. The flesh cannot produce the fruit of the Spirit. Rules and routines cannot transform the heart. Paul explains in Colossians 2 that man-made religion has the appearance of wisdom but no power to restrain the flesh.

Life in Christ involves resurrection, not self-help. The same power that raised Jesus from the dead is at work in us (Ephesians 1:19–20). That power does not come from effort or resolve. It is the work of the Spirit.

This reality is not abstract. It shapes our actual lives and how we relate to God and others.

## Worship Is an Encounter

When the church gathers, we are not attending a religious event. We are meeting with the living God. Christ is present with us as we sit under his Word, receive his sacraments, and join in prayer and singing.

These elements are not symbolic activities or exercises in remembrance. God ministers to his people through them. The Lord is with us and works through what he has ordained.

This truth should shape how we approach worship. There is something sacred happening when the church gathers. God is there.

## Singing That Lifts the Soul

Singing in the church is not optional. It is part of how God ministers to us. In Ephesians and Colossians, Paul urges the church to sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to one another. This is not simply a way to express ourselves. It is how we encourage and exhort one another in the faith.

Many believers have experienced seasons when singing felt impossible. But even then, the voices of fellow saints can carry us. In those moments, God is caring for us through his people.

## Preaching That Produces Faith

Paul writes in Romans 10:17 that faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. That not only applies to those who have not yet believed. It applies to all who need to be sustained in the gospel.

Preaching is not just an information download. Christ is present when his Word is proclaimed. He speaks peace to our troubled hearts and reminds us of what is true.

This is why we show up week after week to hear again that Jesus is enough.

## The Table That Feeds

When we come to the Lord’s Table, we are not engaging in a ritual for memory’s sake. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10 that we are participating in the body and blood of Christ.

This is spiritual nourishment. God strengthens our faith through ordinary bread and wine. We come with nothing but need, and God provides what our souls lack.

## The Church Is a Sacred Place

The church is where God has promised to meet with his people in a unique way. Christ is always with us. But when the church gathers under the Word, around the Table, and in prayer, God draws near in a distinct way.

This shapes how we view the Lord’s Day. It is not a weekly tradition. It is the appointed time to be strengthened by the means of grace.

## Experience Is Part of the Christian Life

We do not put our trust in our emotions or circumstances. But we do trust what God has promised to do when his Word is preached, his gospel is sung, and his people gather.

We do not chase emotional highs. We come with humility and expectation. We believe that God is present. And even when we do not feel it, he is doing something in us.

The experience of God’s grace is not something we manufacture. It is something God gives.

## Learning to Expect

What are we helping our churches look for each week? What are we encouraging people to come and receive?

God has not called us to come and evaluate. He has called us to come and receive. We receive grace. We receive help. We receive Christ himself through his Word and Spirit.

The Christian life is not built on a checklist. It is a life of dependence, nourished by grace. And it is sustained by the regular rhythm of worship, preaching, prayer, and fellowship.

## Final Thoughts

Church is not about attendance. It is not about hype. It is not a way to prove anything. For most of us, showing up on a Sunday is hard at times. We come tired. We come distracted. We come weary.

But we still come. Because Jesus is there. And he gives what we need.

Let us not hesitate to use words like sacred and supernatural. Let us encourage one another to come with hope and expectation. And let us trust that God will do what he has said.

The Christian life is not something we live in our own strength. It is life with God, through Christ, by the Spirit.

That is worth showing up for. Every time.

---

### Thou Shalt Not Misquote

*Published: June 25, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/thou-shalt-not-misquote*

This article is a summary from the following episodes: [Thou Shalt Not Misquote](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/thou-shalt-not-misquote "Thou Shalt Not Misquote")

_Reading the Bible in Context for the Sake of Clarity—and Christ_

You’ve probably seen it on mugs, notebooks, graduation cards—even tattooed on someone’s arm. Jeremiah 29:11\. “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”

It’s one of the most quoted verses in the Bible—and one of the most misquoted.

The same could be said of Matthew 7:1: “Judge not, lest you be judged.” These are passages that either confuse people or, sadly, crush them under the weight of false expectations. That’s why we’re writing this—not to be contrarian, but pastoral. Not to nitpick, but to clear away the clutter so Christ is seen more clearly.

So let’s look at these two beloved verses, not to diminish their value, but to anchor them in the hope they were always meant to point to.

## Jeremiah 29:11 – Is God Promising Me a Better Life?

Let’s begin with the classic: _“For I know the plans I have for you…”_ This verse gets used in all kinds of ways—encouragement during suffering, hope for your career, assurance about your relationships, and motivation at a graduation ceremony. And we get it. The longing to know that God is for us is deeply human.

But here’s the problem: when Jeremiah 29:11 is used to promise smoother circumstances, better outcomes, or personal prosperity in this life, it sets people up for disappointment. Because when those things don’t happen—when suffering persists, when dreams crumble, when life just doesn’t “prosper”—people are left wondering: _Has God failed me? Or have I failed Him?_

That’s a terrible place to be. And it's also not what the verse means.

### What’s the Context?

Jeremiah is writing to a very specific group of people: Jews who have been taken into Babylonian exile. He’s delivering a word from the Lord to a people who are crushed, displaced, and unsure of what comes next. And the promise is this: _Your exile will not last forever. In 70 years, I will bring you back. I am still your God, and you are still my people._

It’s a promise to Israel in a specific redemptive-historical moment. But does that mean it has nothing to do with us? No—far from it.

### The Real Hope

When we read this passage through the lens of covenant theology and the storyline of Scripture, we see the deeper meaning: God is a redeeming God. He brings His people out of bondage. He keeps His promises. And just like He brought Israel out of exile, He will bring all His people out of sin, death, and the grave.

So is Jeremiah 29:11 for us? Absolutely—but not in the way it’s often used. It’s not about your promotion. It’s about your resurrection. It’s not a promise of present prosperity. It’s a promise of future glory.

God is bringing us home. And not just to a land, but to a kingdom that cannot be shaken—where every tear will be wiped away, and we will dwell with Him forever.

## Matthew 7:1 – Does This Mean I Can’t Call Out Sin?

“Judge not, lest you be judged.” It’s the go-to verse for deflecting any criticism—especially moral or doctrinal critique. In today’s world, it’s often thrown around like a shield to avoid accountability. “You can’t judge me—Jesus said so!”

But again, when we read the whole passage in context, we see something very different than blanket moral relativism.

### What’s the Context?

Jesus isn’t saying, “Never evaluate anyone’s beliefs or actions.” He’s saying, “Be humble. Be self-aware. Don’t approach others in self-righteousness.”

Immediately after this verse, Jesus tells us to take the log out of our own eye before trying to remove the speck from someone else’s (v. 3–5). In other words, we are called to discernment—but it must be done with a posture of humility, not pride.

Later in the same chapter, Jesus tells us to watch out for false teachers (v. 15). That requires judgment. Paul tells us in Galatians 6:1 to restore someone caught in sin “in a spirit of gentleness.” That also requires discernment.

### The Real Call

Jesus isn’t forbidding correction—He’s forbidding condemnation. He’s warning against the kind of pride that looks down on others without acknowledging our own need for grace.

Biblical judgment is always gospel-shaped. It’s gentle, honest, and aimed at restoration—not shame. And it flows from a heart that knows: _“But for the grace of God, so go I.”_

## The Common Thread: The Gospel of Grace

Both of these passages—Jeremiah 29:11 and Matthew 7:1—are often misquoted in ways that either promote false comfort or prevent real correction. But when read rightly, they do the opposite. They bring real hope and real healing.

**Jeremiah 29:11**, read in context, doesn’t promise us a comfortable life now—it promises us a glorious life forever with Christ. It assures us that God’s plans are redemptive, not circumstantial. It’s not about temporary relief; it’s about eternal rest.

**Matthew 7:1**, read in context, doesn’t forbid discernment—it forbids self-righteousness. It reminds us that we’re all sinners in need of grace. And that grace should shape the way we speak to each other, correct each other, and live in community with one another.

## Final Word: Let the Bible Lead You to Christ

The reason misquoting Scripture is so dangerous is not just because it distorts theology—it’s because it obscures the gospel.

When we read the Bible through a me-centered lens, we miss the point. Scripture is not a grab bag of inspirational sayings. It’s one unified story of redemption. It’s about Christ—His life, death, resurrection, and reign. And every passage, rightly understood, leads us to rest in Him.

So yes—thou shalt not misquote. But not because we’re trying to win a debate. Because we want people to see Jesus.

---

### Examine Yourselves!

*Published: June 19, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/examine-yourselves-1*

This article is a summary from the following episodes: [Examine Yourselves!](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/examine-yourselves "Examine Yourselves!")

_What It Really Means to Test Whether You Are in the Faith_

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith.” That verse—2 Corinthians 13:5—gets quoted a lot. And if you’ve spent any time in the kinds of conversations we have around here at Theocast, you’ve probably heard it used in response to how we talk about Jesus. His sufficiency. His finished work. The peace we have with God because of Him. And inevitably, someone will raise their hand and ask, “Okay, but what about self-examination?”

It’s a good question. And Scripture does call us to examine ourselves. But the kind of self-examination many of us have been taught is actually not what Paul has in mind. In fact, the version of self-examination we often hear in churches today ends up producing the opposite of what Paul intends—it produces fear, confusion, and a misplaced confidence in our own obedience rather than in the person and work of Christ.

So what does Paul mean when he says, “Examine yourselves”? And how do we do that in a way that leads to peace rather than anxiety?

Let’s walk through it together.

## What It Doesn’t Mean: Fruit-Checking and Fear

For many of us, self-examination has become synonymous with looking inward to assess our behavior, our obedience, and our progress in sanctification. The assumption is: _If I’m really saved, then I’ll see the fruit—and if I don’t, then maybe I’m not._

So we spiral. We start asking questions like:

* “Am I repenting enough?”
* “Am I progressing in holiness?”
* “Do I feel enough conviction over my sin?”
* “Am I doing enough good works?”

The problem with that kind of self-examination is that it subtly shifts our hope from Christ to ourselves. It doesn’t lead us to trust more deeply in Jesus—it leads us to trust in our track record. And when we inevitably find ourselves lacking, we start to doubt whether we even belong to God.

That’s not biblical self-examination. That’s pietistic introspection. And it’s a dead end.

## What Paul Actually Says

In 2 Corinthians 13:5, Paul writes:

> _“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!”_

Notice what he says: _Are you in the faith?_ He doesn’t say, _“Do you see enough change?”_ or _“Are you good enough?”_ He says, _“Do you realize that Jesus Christ is in you?”_ That’s the test. That’s the examination.

Paul isn’t telling us to evaluate our spiritual performance. He’s calling us to assess our faith—our confidence, our hope, our trust. Not “Are you behaving like a Christian?” but “Are you believing in Christ alone for your righteousness and life?”

This passage isn’t about the fruit. It’s about the root.

## Context Is Everything

Paul wrote 2 Corinthians in the midst of a messy church situation. Some so-called “super-apostles” had crept into Corinth, undermining Paul’s authority and questioning whether someone like him—weak, unimpressive, suffering—could really be an apostle of Jesus Christ.

Paul responds by pointing to the paradox of the gospel: that God’s power is made perfect in weakness. He boasts not in his strength but in his weakness, because it magnifies Christ.

That’s the backdrop for 2 Corinthians 13\. Paul is essentially saying, “If you think I’m disqualified because I’m weak and because my only strength is in Christ, then maybe you need to examine yourselves. Are you trusting in strength—or are you trusting in Christ?”

That’s the heart of the matter. That’s the kind of self-examination we all need.

## What We Should Be Asking

Here’s what biblical self-examination sounds like:

* “Do I believe that Jesus is enough for me?”
* “Is my trust in Christ alone for my righteousness before God?”
* “Do I believe that His work on the cross is sufficient to save even me?”
* “Do I see myself as weak and in need of His strength?”
* “When I think about standing before God, is my peace grounded in what I’ve done—or in what Christ has done for me?”

Those are the questions that matter. Because fruit can be faked. Behavior can be managed. But faith—that is the root of all true spiritual life.

## You're Worse Than You Think… and That’s Why Jesus Came

A healthy kind of self-examination will always lead us to humility. Because when we’re honest about our thoughts, our motives, our hearts—when we acknowledge just how corrupt the flesh still is—we’re reminded that we are not our own hope.

Even the godliest Christians among us, if their inner life were broadcast on a screen, would run out of the room in shame. The flesh is worse than we think. But the gospel is better than we imagine.

And that’s the point: Jesus didn’t come to save people who had it together. He came to save sinners—weak, failing, exhausted sinners who had no hope apart from Him.

## The Offense of Mercy and Grace

Here’s another test: Are you offended by grace?

If someone sins in a way that offends you deeply, and your gut reaction is, “Not sure grace covers that,” then it’s time to examine your understanding of the gospel. Because if grace isn’t for the worst kinds of sinners, then it’s not for any of us.

Grace isn’t fair. It’s not earned. It’s for those who don’t deserve it—and that includes you and me.

When we start to withhold grace from others, we’re usually forgetting how desperately we need it ourselves. And when we minimize the depth of our own sin, we inevitably shrink the work of Christ.

## The Result of Self-Examination: Peace in Christ

If your self-examination leaves you with doubt and despair, then you’re not doing it right.

Biblical self-examination should drive you to Jesus. It should make you say, “Lord, I’m worse than I realized—and I need you more than ever.” And what do we find when we turn to Him?

Peace.

Romans 5:1 says, _“Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”_ Not through fruit. Not through obedience. Through faith.

So if you’re lacking peace, examine where your faith is. If it’s in your performance, you’ll never have peace. But if it’s in Christ alone, peace is already yours—because He is our peace (Ephesians 2:14).

## Examine Yourselves… and Look to Christ

So yes, examine yourself. But don’t examine your fruit to determine if you’re saved. Examine your faith. Ask yourself: _Am I trusting in Jesus alone? Do I believe He’s enough?_

And if your answer is, _“Yes. I’m clinging to Him because I have nowhere else to go,”_ then friend, you pass the test.

Because Christ is your righteousness. Christ is your life. Christ is your peace.

And that’s the whole point.

---

### Thoughts on Costi Hinn and Cheap Grace

*Published: June 12, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/thoughts-on-costi-hinn-and-cheap-grace*

This article is a summary from the following episodes:[Thoughts on Costi Hinn and Cheap Grace](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/thoughts-on-costi-hinn-and-cheap-grace "Thoughts on Costi Hinn and Cheap Grace")

  
From time to time, we receive messages asking us to respond to certain sermons or teachings, and while we can’t cover everything, occasionally we engage when it touches on key issues we care deeply about—like law and gospel, assurance, and how Christians should think about obedience.

Recently, many of you shared a clip from a sermon by Costi Hinn titled _“Will Jesus Even Know You?”_ Costi is someone we love and thank God for. The Lord has clearly done remarkable work in his life, and we’re encouraged by his boldness in confronting prosperity theology and pointing people to Christ. So this isn’t a critique born of animosity—it’s a conversation between brothers, meant to help clarify and encourage, especially for the sake of weary saints who might be left confused or frightened by certain language.

So, what was said? And where is there some confusion?

Let’s talk about it.

## Cheap Grace and the Caricature

In the sermon, Costi warns against what he calls “cheap grace”—a kind of easy-believism where someone professes faith in Christ but lives in persistent sin, showing no transformation or obedience. He emphasizes that there must be “proof” of justification in our lives through obedience, or else our profession is false.

That concern isn’t new. It echoes debates from the 1980s when teachers like Zane Hodges promoted what became known as the “Free Grace” movement—teaching that one moment of intellectual assent secured salvation, regardless of any fruit or obedience afterward. John MacArthur famously responded with his book _The Gospel According to Jesus_, and what emerged was the Lordship Salvation debate.

And let’s be clear: we agree that true saving faith will bear fruit. We agree that revivalism and easy-believism have done damage to the church. But here’s where we start to differ—especially on the use of language like “cheap grace” and “proof of justification.”

## Faith Is the Proof, Not the Fruit

The Reformed tradition has long affirmed: _We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone._ Faith inevitably produces fruit—but fruit is not the proof of justification. It’s the result of it.

The moment we start telling struggling Christians that the _proof_ of their standing before God is found in their obedience, we’re on dangerous ground. We’ve shifted their eyes from Christ to themselves. We’ve turned assurance into a performance review.

Evidence? Yes. Encouragement? Yes. But never _proof_. Because fruit ebbs and flows. Obedience is inconsistent. And the line between “enough fruit” and “not enough” is always moving.

We’ve seen this firsthand: Christians terrified that they might not “really be saved” because their lives don’t look radically different. Kids who grew up in the church and trust Christ, but now wonder if they missed something because they never had a dramatic conversion story. People caught in sin, struggling to believe they’re still loved by God.

What they need in those moments is not a checklist. They need Christ.

## Not All Who Sin Are Hypocrites

Another point Costi raises is that many in the church “claim to have faith” but “live sinful lives,” and that’s evidence they’re not truly saved.

Again, it depends on what we mean.

If by “living sinful lives” we mean persistent, unrepentant rebellion while claiming grace—that’s a serious problem, and the New Testament gives us plenty of language for addressing it. But if we mean that Christians who sin regularly (which is all of us) are to examine themselves to see if they’re truly saved, we’ve confused the categories.

Paul doesn’t tell believers who are trapped in sin, “Maybe you’re not justified.” He tells them, _“You have forgotten that you were cleansed from your former sins”_ (2 Peter 1:9). In other words, the problem isn’t that they’ve lost salvation—it’s that they’ve lost sight of the gospel.

Scripture speaks plainly: believers still sin. They often fall short. And sometimes they’re even _trapped_ in sin (Gal. 6:1). But the call in those moments isn’t to question justification—it’s to remember grace.

## Does Grace Produce Obedience? Absolutely.

This is where we want to be crystal clear: grace changes people. The same grace that saves you is the grace that sanctifies you.

Titus 2:11–12 says it plainly: _“The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation… training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions.”_ Grace trains us. Not the law. Not fear. Not guilt. Grace.

Grace is not passive. It’s not soft. It’s not an excuse to coast. It’s power. It’s the presence of Christ through the Holy Spirit, changing us from the inside out.

We don't preach grace because we want people to get lazy—we preach grace because it’s the only thing that actually works. Law can crush, but it cannot create life. Only Jesus raises the dead.

## What About the Hypocrites?

We understand Costi’s concern. Every pastor has seen people play church. There are those who say “Lord, Lord,” but live as if they don’t know him.

But what’s the solution?

Not moralism. Not ramped-up obedience language. The solution is law and gospel.

We need to preach the law in all its weight—showing the holiness of God and the utter inability of man. We need to preach the gospel in all its glory—showing the mercy of God and the finished work of Christ. And we need to call people to trust, not in their performance, but in Jesus alone.

If someone’s a “faker,” they don’t need to try harder—they need to be born again. And that doesn’t happen through willpower. It happens through the Word.

## Jesus Is the Rock

The last thing we want is to create fear and confusion in the hearts of sincere but struggling Christians. That’s why this conversation matters.

Yes, we want to see obedience. Yes, we want holiness and godly living. But never at the expense of assurance. Never at the expense of the gospel.

Jesus is our only hope. He is the proof. His obedience, not ours. His blood, not our sweat. His cross, not our consistency.

So to those who are tired, confused, and wondering if they’re really in—look to Christ. He will never cast you out. And for those concerned about hypocrisy in the church—keep preaching Christ. Keep holding out the gospel. And trust that the same grace that saves will also train and transform.

We’re grateful for Costi, and we’re grateful for the chance to have conversations like these—not to tear down, but to build up. The church needs clarity. And most of all, it needs Christ.

Let’s keep pointing people to him.

---

### Why Are So Many People Going to Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism?

*Published: June 5, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/why-are-so-many-people-going-to-eastern-orthodoxy-and-roman-catholicism*

This article is a summary from the following episodes: [Why Are So Many People Going to Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism?](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/why-are-so-many-people-going-to-eastern-orthodoxy-and-roman-catholicism "Why Are So Many People Going to Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism?")

It’s happening more and more. People who once identified as evangelical are walking away—not to atheism, but to the incense and icons of Eastern Orthodoxy or the ornate ritual of Roman Catholicism. And they’re not necessarily doing it out of rebellion. They’re doing it because they’re looking for something they feel evangelicalism has failed to deliver: sacredness. Mystery. Stability. Weight.

If you’ve talked to someone who’s made that transition, you’ve probably heard phrases like:

“It just felt hollow where I was.”  
“I wanted something ancient.”  
“I needed something objective—something outside of me.”

We understand that impulse. We really do. And what we want to say as confessional Reformed Protestants is this: you don’t need to go to Rome or Constantinople to find the sacred. You don’t need to abandon the Reformation to encounter the spiritual, the mystical, and the transcendent.

Let’s talk about why people are leaving—and why Reformed theology has better answers than most people realize.

## A Hunger for the Sacred

We’re not talking about superstition or blind ritual. What people are longing for is a kind of holy seriousness—a recognition that God is not just their buddy, but the sovereign Lord who inhabits eternity and meets with his people in glory and grace.

They’re weary of fog machines, TED-talk sermons, and church services that feel more like corporate pep rallies than encounters with the divine. They’re looking for something that doesn’t feel so shallow. Something rooted. Something real.

Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism present themselves as havens of this sacredness. They offer liturgy, history, and a profound sense of continuity. And they emphasize that worship is not entertainment. That’s attractive—especially for people who feel like they’ve been fed spiritual junk food for years.

But here’s the thing: what draws them in is not uniquely Orthodox or Catholic. The Reformers understood sacredness. They embraced mystery. And they took the spiritual realm seriously. We just stopped talking like they did.

## The Reformers Were Mystical (In the Best Way)

It might surprise some people to hear this, but the Reformers weren’t just theologians of doctrine—they were theologians of experience. John Calvin was called the theologian of the Holy Spirit. Thomas Goodwin preached about cosmic spiritual realities. Martin Luther spoke of the sacraments as direct, tangible encounters with the risen Christ.

For them, the preaching of the Word wasn’t just information transfer—it was the voice of Christ to his people. Baptism wasn’t just symbolic—it was union with Christ, the washing of regeneration. The Lord’s Supper wasn’t just a memorial—it was real nourishment for weak and weary saints.

They believed Jesus was really present with his people through Word and sacrament. They believed the local church was a sacred place where heaven touched earth. And they believed in an objective gospel—one that brought comfort to people whose internal lives were falling apart.

Sound familiar? That’s exactly what people are chasing when they leave for Orthodoxy or Rome.

## How We Lost the Sacred

So what happened?

A lot. But here’s the short version: the Enlightenment exalted reason and gutted the supernatural. Revivalism turned the faith inward and emotional. Rationalism stripped our worship of mystery. Pietism made Christianity about personal performance. And pragmatism—well, that made it all about results.

Over time, we traded sacredness for relevance. We traded the Table for TED talks. We traded gospel promises for moral to-do lists. We stopped talking about Christ for us and started talking only about Christ in us. We stopped treating church like the throne room of God and started treating it like a weekend event.

And people have noticed.

They’re looking for something ancient and durable. They want to hear about the power of God, not just the potential of man. They want the presence of Jesus, not just life tips with a Bible verse. And when they can’t find that in evangelical churches, some assume their only option is to leave Protestantism altogether.

## You Don’t Have to Leave

Here’s the good news: the sacred is already here. The mystical, spiritual, rich theology that people are yearning for—it’s not hidden in Rome or behind a Greek iconostasis. It’s right here in historic Reformed theology.

When we gather on the Lord’s Day, Christ is really with us. When the Word is preached, he speaks. When the Table is served, he feeds. When the waters of baptism are poured, he unites sinners to himself. When we sing, we join the angels. When we pray, we approach the throne of grace.

All of that is supernatural. All of that is sacred. All of that is rich with history and weight.

The problem is not that Reformed theology lacks the sacred. The problem is we’ve forgotten how to talk about it. Or worse, we’ve been afraid to.

## What About Rome’s Objectivity?

Another major draw to Roman Catholicism is its emphasis on objectivity. In a world of Instagrammed spirituality and endless self-examination, the Roman Church says, “Come and receive grace through the sacraments.” No performance. No feelings required.

That sounds comforting, especially to those who have been beat down by the never-enough culture of modern evangelicalism. But here’s what gets missed: in Rome’s system, grace is not a guarantee. It’s a drip. A hope-so. An if-you-do-enough kind of grace.

You participate in the sacraments, and you hope it’s enough to outweigh your sin. There’s no assurance. No final word of peace.

But the gospel gives us something better: Jesus himself. We don’t look inward. We look outward. Extranos. The finished work of Christ outside of us, for us, on our behalf. That’s our peace. And it’s delivered to us through the preaching of the Word and the sacraments—not because they work automatically, but because they deliver Christ to those united to him by faith.

## Let’s Recover What Was Always Ours

People are leaving evangelicalism because they’re hungry. They’re tired of novelty. They’re starving for transcendence. They want something real.

As Reformed pastors, we want to say: it’s already here.

We don’t need to chase Rome or Orthodoxy. We need to reclaim the sacredness we’ve forgotten. We need to talk like the Reformers did—about the Holy Spirit, about the mystery of union with Christ, about the heavenly realities we participate in every Sunday. And we need to preach a gospel that actually gives rest to the weary.

Jesus hasn’t stopped being enough. We’ve just stopped pointing to him clearly.

So let’s recover the sacred. Let’s lift our eyes. And let’s help people see that they don’t need to leave to find what they’re looking for. Christ is here. And he is for us.

---

### Credobaptism or Paedobaptism?

*Published: May 29, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/credobaptism-or-paedobaptism*

This article is a summary from the following episodes: Part One: [Credobaptism or Paedobaptism? Pt. 1 Adriel Sanchez and Theocast Discuss Baptism & Covenant Theology](https://youtu.be/HkbXrFuwqiE?si=pSiY-fLfUy%5FGPhe6 "Credobaptism or Paedobaptism? Pt. 1 Adriel Sanchez and Theocast Discuss Baptism & Covenant Theology")  
Part Two: [Credobaptism or Paedobaptism? - Part 2 (w/ Adriel Sanchez from Sola Media)](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/credobaptism-or-paedobaptism-part-2-w-adriel-sanchez-from-sola-media "Credobaptism or Paedobaptism? - Part 2 (w/ Adriel Sanchez from Sola Media)")  

_A Conversation Among Brothers_

We love conversations like this one—not because they’re easy, but because they matter. In a two-part video exchange between us (Jon and Justin) and our brother Adriel Sanchez, pastor in the PCA and host of Core Christianity, we got to sit down and talk through the long-standing differences between the Reformed Paedobaptist and Reformed Credobaptist positions.

It’s rare for this conversation to happen with mutual respect, clarity, and warmth. But that’s exactly what we experienced. We’re grateful for Adriel and the work he’s doing, and we’re also grateful to be able to clearly lay out why we remain confessional Baptists.

This article isn’t trying to settle a 300-year-old debate. It’s not a point-by-point rebuttal or a call to arms. It’s a summary of a pastoral, theological conversation between friends. And our prayer is that it helps weary Christians find clarity—not just about baptism, but about the gospel and the covenant promises of God in Christ.

## What Do We Agree On?

Before we dive into the differences, let’s be clear about where we agree. The three of us are confessional. We believe in covenant theology. We’re reformed. We believe in the ordinary means of grace. And most importantly, we’re preaching the same Christ for sinners.

We all agree that baptism isn’t just a public testimony. It’s a sign and seal of the covenant of grace. It signifies union with Christ, the forgiveness of sins, and being buried and raised with Jesus. And we all want to push back against the shallow, symbolic-only views of baptism that dominate much of modern evangelicalism.

We agree that children of believers are to be raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. That they are holy—not “vipers in diapers,” but set apart in the context of the covenant community. And we agree that God works through means—through the preached word, through the sacraments, through the community of the church.

Where we begin to differ is in who should receive the sign of the covenant—and what exactly that sign signifies in terms of covenant participation and union with Christ.

## The Covenant Framework: One or Two Administrations?

For Adriel, the theological shift came when he began to see baptism as primarily something God does. It’s a work of grace, not just a work of man. That shift opened the door to seeing continuity between circumcision in the Old Covenant and baptism in the New—and led him to embrace infant baptism within the framework of covenant theology.

From our perspective, we affirm one covenant of grace throughout redemptive history. But we see it unfolding progressively through distinct, successive covenants—Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic—until it’s formally established in the New Covenant in Christ. This means we see more discontinuity than our Paedobaptist brothers do.

For us, the Abrahamic covenant isn’t the covenant of grace per se—it’s a typological covenant that includes both earthly and spiritual promises. Circumcision, then, was a sign of that typological covenant, applied to Abraham’s offspring according to the flesh. It pointed forward to something greater—regeneration, the circumcision of the heart—not unlike the way the land, the temple, and the priesthood pointed to Christ.

The fulfillment of circumcision, then, is not baptism. It’s regeneration. The true circumcision is made without hands. That’s why we give the sign of the covenant only to those who show evidence of the new birth—those who have been united to Christ by faith.

## Visible Church and Covenant Participation

Adriel argues that children of believers belong to the visible church and should receive the sign of the covenant, just as they did under the Old Covenant. He sees continuity in language like “household,” “holy,” and even in the warning passages of Hebrews, which speak of people sanctified by the blood of the covenant who fall away.

We agree that there’s a kind of external participation in the life of the covenant community. There are those in our churches—our children included—who are under the preached word, surrounded by the people of God, and are “holy” in the sense of being set apart. But for us, that doesn’t mean they are in the New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31 describes a New Covenant where all its members “know the Lord,” have the law written on their hearts, and have their sins forgiven. That’s not true of everyone in the visible church. And so we make a distinction between visible church membership and New Covenant membership. Baptism, in our view, is given to those who are in union with Christ and part of the New Covenant. Not just externally, but truly.

To baptize someone into the New Covenant is to say that the blessings of Christ are theirs. If that person later walks away, we’re left with either an over-realized sacrament or the implication that Christ fails to save some of those he mediates for.

## Household Baptisms and Covenant Language

Adriel rightly points out that New Testament baptisms often involve households, and he sees that as a continuation of covenantal patterns from the Old Testament. He argues that Luke’s use of “household” language would be misleading if children were now excluded from covenant signs.

We hear that. But we also note that the text never explicitly says infants were present or baptized. And in many cases, the household is said to have rejoiced or believed along with the head of the house. That suggests conscious participation.

More than that, baptism in the New Testament is consistently tied to faith, union with Christ, and regeneration. Romans 6, Galatians 3, Colossians 2—all describe baptism as being buried with Christ, clothed in Christ, raised with Christ, joined to Christ. There’s no category in the New Testament for someone receiving the sign of baptism without being united to the one it signifies.

That’s where the rubber meets the road for us. The sign is tied so closely to the thing signified that to give it without evidence of the reality is, in our view, inconsistent with New Testament practice.

## Warning Passages and Covenant Holiness

Adriel brings up Hebrews 10 and other texts that speak of people who were “sanctified by the blood of the covenant” and yet fall away. He sees this as evidence that people can participate in the New Covenant externally without having vital union with Christ.

We agree that the warnings are real and serious. And we don’t deny that people can be in the church, receive the means of grace, and even look like Christians, yet not be truly converted.

But for us, those people are not in the New Covenant. They’re part of the visible church. They’re participants in the life of the covenant community. But they’re not in vital union with Christ, and they haven’t received the reality signified by baptism.

We think that distinction matters—not just theologically, but pastorally. Because if we say someone is in the New Covenant and united to Christ, and then that person walks away, what are we left with? Either Jesus fails to save, or our categories need adjustment.

## Pastoral Encouragement and Gospel Comfort

This is where we land the plane. What matters most is not how much water or when it was applied. What matters most is Jesus. The comfort of baptism is not found in our profession, or in the sincerity of our parents, or in our theological precision. It’s found in Christ and his promises.

We encourage people to remember their baptism—not because it proves their faith, but because it points them to Jesus. To his finished work. To his faithfulness. To his gospel.

We love our Paedobaptist brothers. We know we haven’t resolved every difference. But we also know this: we’re preaching the same Christ. We’re pointing to the same grace. And we’re looking to the same promise.

Let’s keep pointing people there.

---

### Why New Calvinism Is Not Reformed

*Published: May 22, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/why-new-calvinism-is-not-reformed*

This article is a summary from the following episode: [Why New Calvinism Is Not Reformed](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/why-new-calvinism-is-not-reformed "Why New Calvinism Is Not Reformed")

Let’s say this right up front: we’re thankful for New Calvinism. It brought a much-needed recovery of God’s sovereignty and the doctrines of grace to mainstream evangelicalism. Many of us would never have found Reformed theology without it. But as helpful as it was—and is in some respects—New Calvinism is not Reformed theology.

That might sound harsh to some ears, but hear us out. We're not trying to pick a fight. We’re pastors. We care about clarity, especially when it comes to the gospel. And over the years, we've seen how the confusion between New Calvinism and historic Reformed theology has hurt people. So we're pulling back the curtain on a few key differences—not to argue, but to help the weary and the burdened see Jesus more clearly.

### A One-Dimensional Calvinism

New Calvinism is primarily Calvinistic in its soteriology. That’s its strongest leg. It champions doctrines like total depravity, unconditional election, and particular redemption. We’re with them there. Absolutely.

But Reformed theology has never been only about the five points of Calvinism. That's like saying a car is just an engine. Important? Yes. Sufficient? No.

Historically, Reformed theology is built on five foundational pillars:

1. **Calvinism**
2. **Confessionalism**
3. **Covenantalism**
4. **Law-Gospel Distinction**
5. **Ordinary Means of Grace**

New Calvinism grabs hold of that first piece but largely leaves the rest behind. And that’s where the confusion—and the exhaustion—often begins.

### Confessionalism: Grounded in Christ for Us

Being Reformed means being confessional. That doesn’t just mean we have a favorite old document. It means we’ve tethered ourselves to a theological framework that is Christ-centered, gospel-rich, and rooted in church history.

Confessionalism keeps us grounded in the external, objective work of Christ. It protects us from drifting into the introspective, subjective spirituality that so often wears people out. When we say “Christ for you,” we mean it—and our confession helps us hold that line.

New Calvinism, on the other hand, tends to be more biblicistic and eclectic. It often mixes Calvinistic soteriology with revivalism, pietism, or even dispensationalism. Without the ballast of a confession, theology becomes more individualistic and less churchly—and over time, less clear about where our hope actually lies.

### Covenant Theology: The Bible Is One Story

Reformed theology reads the Bible through the lens of covenant. We see three major covenants—redemption, works, and grace—that explain the whole story of Scripture and make sense of Jesus as the second Adam who did everything the first Adam failed to do.

New Calvinism doesn’t typically operate with this framework. Instead, it often borrows categories from covenant theology without realizing it. We’ll hear language about the first and second Adam or about substitutionary atonement and imputed righteousness—but without the cohesive theological scaffolding that makes those doctrines sing.

Without covenant theology, you might still preach a powerful gospel, but you lose the clarity and consistency that keeps Christ at the center of every page of Scripture. And that affects everything—from how we read our Bibles to how we understand baptism, church, and assurance.

### Law and Gospel: Don’t Mix the Medicine

One of the most critical distinctions Reformed theology gives us is the law/gospel distinction. It’s not just a Lutheran thing—it’s a Reformation thing. And we need it.

Law is what God requires. Gospel is what God gives. The law says, “Do this and live.” The gospel says, “It is finished.”

New Calvinism often collapses these two. It rightly calls people to trust in Christ for justification, but then tends to bring the law in through the back door for sanctification. The result? A gospel that starts with grace but ends with performance. And for many, that becomes a treadmill of guilt, effort, and despair.

Reformed theology insists that both our justification and our sanctification are rooted in Christ alone. Sanctification is not about climbing spiritual ladders; it’s about learning to live from the union we already have with Jesus. The gospel doesn’t just start the Christian life—it carries us every step of the way.

### Ordinary Means of Grace: Jesus Is Still Serving Us

Reformed theology believes in the ordinary means of grace—word, sacraments, prayer, and fellowship—as the primary way God strengthens and sustains His people. But here’s the twist: we believe Jesus is actually present with us in those means. Really. Spiritually. Mystically. Powerfully.

New Calvinism often has a high view of preaching (praise God), but tends to reduce the sacraments to mere symbols. Communion becomes just a memorial. Baptism becomes just an act of obedience. But for us, these are not just reminders—they’re means. Jesus meets us in them, serves us, nourishes us, and strengthens our faith.

If your faith feels weak, you don’t need another conference or another list. You need Jesus. And He’s promised to meet you in the ordinary, week after week.

### Simul Justus et Peccator: Saint and Sinner

Here’s one last thing that often gets missed in New Calvinism: the saint/sinner reality. In Christ, we are righteous and holy—and yet we still battle the flesh every day. That tension is normal. Romans 7, Galatians 5, Psalm 32—they all bear witness to it.

But if you don’t have that category, you end up surprised by your struggle. Worse, you start to wonder if you’re even saved. Reformed theology gives you a better answer: you're both saint and sinner until glory. So don’t look inward for your peace—look to Christ. Rest in His finished work. He’s got you.

**Final Thought**

We’re not mad at New Calvinism. We’re grateful for what it recovered. But we’ve seen how many people have come out of that movement disillusioned, confused, or just plain exhausted.

What we’re holding out here isn’t a tribe or a trend—it’s Jesus. Reformed theology, when rightly understood, gives you Christ in all of Scripture, Christ in the sacraments, Christ in your struggle, and Christ for you in everything.

And that's why we’re here. Not to argue. Not to posture. But to help you rest.

---

### Our Thoughts on John Piper and Falling Away

*Published: May 8, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/our-thoughts-on-john-piper-and-falling-away*

This article is a summary from the following episode: [Our Thoughts on John Piper and Falling Away](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/our-thoughts-on-john-piper-and-falling-away "Our Thoughts on John Piper and Falling Away")

### Introduction: Why We’re Talking About This

Recently, a video clip from the Coram Deo conference featuring John Piper sparked conversation online, specifically around his comments about the possibility of falling away from the living God. In his talk, Piper emphasized the need to preach the warning that believers can fall away. His message was clear: we must take this seriously, and we must not shy away from telling people that they can lose their way.

As is often the case with discussions around assurance, justification, and sanctification, Theocast was brought into the conversation. We received numerous questions from our community asking for our thoughts on Piper’s statements. So, we decided to address this directly—not to stir controversy, but to provide clarity and encouragement to weary believers. Our goal here, as always, is to point you to the sufficiency of Christ and to help you rest in the finished work of Jesus.

### Respect for John Piper and the Need for Clarity

Before diving into our concerns, it’s important to say this: We respect John Piper. God has used him in significant ways in many lives, including our own. However, we also believe it’s crucial to address the theological implications of his comments because they touch on vital issues like assurance, the sufficiency of Christ, and what it means to live in peace with God.

Piper’s comments introduced a tension between the sovereign grace of God and the believer’s security. Essentially, he stated that believers could fall away from the living God and that pastors should preach this warning without hesitation. He added that, of course, if you’re elect, you won’t fall away—but in the same breath, he said, “I, John Piper, can fall away from the living God.” This juxtaposition leaves the hearer with more questions than answers.

### The Issue with Biblicism

One of the major issues at play here is what we call **biblicism**—an approach to scripture that emphasizes isolated proof texts without considering the broader theological context. Biblicism often presents biblical truths as if they are in conflict with one another when, in reality, they harmonize when rightly understood. In this case, Piper appears to pit the doctrine of perseverance against warning passages, suggesting they coexist in tension rather than coherence.

Biblicism often insists on a raw, unfiltered reading of the text without theological reflection. This can lead to an unintended consequence: creating fear and doubt in sincere believers who are already prone to introspection.

### What Does Scripture Really Say?

Let’s consider what the Bible says about falling away. The book of Hebrews, which Piper referenced, certainly warns against falling away. However, these warnings are directed at those who may have been part of the covenant community externally but never truly trusted Christ internally. In other words, these are warnings to those who participate in the life of the church without genuine faith.

In Hebrews, the writer is addressing people who are tempted to abandon Christ and return to the old covenant. These warnings are not aimed at believers who are genuinely resting in Jesus but are meant to caution those who are reverting to legalism and self-righteousness.

Similarly, the New Testament emphasizes the security of those who are truly in Christ:

* **John 10:28-29:** “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”
* **Romans 8:38-39:** “For I am sure that neither death nor life... nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
* **Philippians 1:6:** “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”

The message is clear: **If you are in Christ, you are safe.** No amount of sin, struggle, or weakness can separate you from the love of God.

### The Consequence of Law-Gospel Confusion

The heart of the problem with Piper’s statement lies in **collapsing law and gospel**. The law says, “Do this and live.” The gospel says, “Christ has done it for you.” When these are confused, we end up with a message that sounds like, “Yes, you’re justified by faith, but your final standing before God depends on your continued faithfulness.” This is where Piper’s concept of “final justification” comes into play—a doctrine we find problematic because it undermines the assurance the gospel provides.

When Piper says that a professing believer can fall away, he inadvertently places the burden back on the individual to maintain their salvation. This mindset can create a lifelong struggle with doubt, as believers constantly examine themselves to ensure they haven’t “made shipwreck of their faith.”

### Assurance Comes from Christ, Not Introspection

We understand the instinct to warn against complacency. But true sanctification and growth in holiness come from looking to Christ, not ourselves. When Piper says, “You can fall away from the living God,” he leaves believers with a sense of uncertainty rather than the comfort that comes from the gospel. The Bible’s answer to fear and doubt is to point us to Christ, not to our performance.

Piper’s own comments from a panel discussion reveal this tension. He stated, “Introspection is a dead-end road.” We agree wholeheartedly. But the very theology he promotes inevitably leads to introspection, as believers constantly wonder whether they are truly treasuring Christ enough.

### The Pastoral Problem

As pastors, we encounter people burdened by this very fear. They ask, “How do I know if I’m elect?” Our response is simple: **Are you trusting Christ for your righteousness and salvation? If so, you belong to him.** Assurance doesn’t come from examining our works or our feelings; it comes from the objective work of Christ.

Paul’s letters repeatedly encourage believers to rest in the finished work of Jesus, to rejoice in the certainty that our salvation is secure because it is rooted in Christ’s faithfulness, not ours.

### Why Assurance Matters

Our concern is not just theological—it’s pastoral. Messages like Piper’s can easily foster fear and confusion, leaving believers feeling like they are on shifting sand. In contrast, the gospel tells us that we are safe because Jesus holds us fast. There is no comfort in being told that our assurance is dependent on our ongoing performance. But there is profound comfort in knowing that our salvation was accomplished, secured, and will be completed by Christ.

### Final Thoughts: Let the Gospel Ring Clear

We respect John Piper, but we believe his approach to warning passages undermines the full assurance that scripture offers to believers. Instead of keeping people in a perpetual state of uncertainty, let’s proclaim the sufficiency of Christ without reservation.

Our hope for you, weary pilgrim, is that you rest in the reality that Jesus is enough. When doubt creeps in, don’t look within—look to the cross. Christ’s finished work is your only assurance, and in him, you are secure.

---

### Law & Gospel (with Chad Bird)

*Published: May 6, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/law-gospel-with-chad-bird*

This article is a summary from the following episode: [2025 Law & Gospel Conference](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/law-gospel-with-chad-bird "Law & Gospel")

### When the Law Is All You Know

When we talk about the Christian life, we have to be clear—crystal clear—about two things: what God requires of us and what God provides for us. If we confuse those, if we blur the line between law and gospel, we end up in a place of confusion, fear, and exhaustion. Most of us have lived that. Some of us for decades.

This weekend, a few of us sat down for a live conversation, not to give a theological lecture, but to share our own stories—where we came from, how misunderstanding law and gospel wrecked us, and how the Lord rescued us by his grace.

Some of us grew up in churches where we were saturated with Bible knowledge but never heard the gospel applied personally. Jesus was taught, but not as the Savior who actually did it all for _me_. So we lived in fear. Doubt. The constant anxiety of wondering if we'd done enough, repented enough, meant it enough. It was revival after revival, rededication after rededication. We were taught—explicitly or implicitly—that true preaching left you uncertain whether you were even saved. That's what good preaching was supposed to do.

Others of us grew up in more liberal environments where doctrine was minimized and Christianity was just about "being a good person." But that left us swinging between hypocrisy and despair. We could see that moralism wasn't producing anything genuine, but we didn’t know what the alternative was. We trusted Christ as best we could, but still lived under a cloud of suspicion about God’s love. Constantly wondering, “Is he really for me?”

### How Confusing Law and Gospel Devastates Us

And for many of us, even once we found "better theology," it wasn't always better news. Because what often gets called "gospel" today is actually just another version of law. We heard, "Yes, you're saved by grace, but now you must sincerely obey to stay assured." In other words, your confidence isn’t in Christ alone—it’s in how well you're following him. And that, friends, will wreck you too.

We need to understand this: the law and the gospel are not enemies, but they are different. The law tells us what God demands—perfect righteousness. The gospel tells us what God has graciously provided—Jesus Christ, who is our righteousness. When we collapse those two, we end up with what some of us have called “the gospel of sincere obedience.” And that’s not good news. That’s just a softer form of law.

### What the Law Requires, What the Gospel Provides

The breakthrough came when we learned to distinguish between the law and the gospel. The law is what God requires: perfect love for him and neighbor. The gospel is what God provides: Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law for us, died for all our lawlessness, and now gives us his righteousness as a gift.

The law says, "Do this and live." The gospel says, "It is finished. Trust in Christ and live."

The law is good. It shows us the character of God and what true love looks like. But it cannot save. It can only accuse. Only the gospel saves. Only Jesus saves.

So when someone asks, “What’s the most Christian thing we can do?” the default answer is often a law answer: love God, love neighbor, follow Jesus, surrender all. And while those things are biblical, they’re not the gospel. The most Christian thing we can do is trust in Christ. To fall into his arms, to cast ourselves on his mercy and rest in his finished work. That’s the heart of Christianity.

### Why “Follow Jesus” Isn’t the Gospel

Let’s be clear. Following Jesus matters. But that’s the fruit of the gospel, not the gospel itself. Following Jesus doesn’t make us Christians. Trusting Jesus does. We often confuse discipleship language with gospel language, and that creates a subtle shift from “Christ for us” to “me for Christ.”

Even passages like “pick up your cross” or “surrender all” are often preached as if they’re the gospel. But Jesus isn’t calling us to save ourselves by dying well. He’s calling us to trust that he died for us. He picked up _his_ cross so that we, though weak and failing, might live. His death is our death. His resurrection is our life.

### Deconstruction and Reconstruction

We’ve also walked through seasons of deconstruction. When you realize that much of what you’ve believed about Christianity was actually moralism, pietism, or revivalism, it can be disorienting. And for a time, we can become more defined by what we’re _against_ than what we’re _for_. That’s understandable—but we can’t stay there.

We don’t want to just tear down. We want to build up. Not in ourselves, but in Christ. We want to point people to the rock that is higher than we are. The goal isn’t to just destroy bad teaching. It’s to free weary sinners so they can finally rest in Jesus.

We’re not just trying to remove the rubble. We’re laying bricks on the only true foundation—Christ crucified and risen for sinners.

### The Life of Faith, Not Sight

Living by faith is hard. Because faith lives in tension. We don’t see what we believe. We still sin. We still struggle. We still feel the weight of shame. But we walk not by sight, but by faith in the Son of God who loved us and gave himself for us.

Faith doesn’t mean we never doubt or never fall. Faith means we keep coming back to Christ, again and again, empty-handed and open-hearted, trusting that he is faithful—even when we’re not.

And this life of faith is not lived in isolation. We need each other. We need the church. We need to hear the gospel again and again—not because we forget the facts, but because we forget the comfort. We forget the rest. We forget the peace.

### Rest in the Rock That Is Christ

Brothers and sisters, let’s not define our Christianity by what we’re avoiding. Let’s define it by who we’re clinging to. Christ is our life. Christ is our peace. Christ is our hope.

The law will always show us what God requires—and we should listen. But only the gospel shows us what God has provided. And that is the only message that saves.

In Christ, we are secure. We are loved. We are home.

---

### God Really Does Love Us

*Published: April 28, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/god-really-does-love-us*

This article is a summary from the following episode: [God Really Does Love Us](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/god-really-does-love-us-with-dan-cruver "God Really Does Love Us")

If you’ve been a Christian for any amount of time, you’ve probably said it: "I know that God loves me." We can even go a little further and say, "I know Jesus died for my sins. I know I'm forgiven. I know I’ll be with God forever."

But here’s where it gets tricky.

If someone presses us with the question, "How do you think God _feels_ about you right now?" that’s when the discomfort begins. If they dig even deeper and ask, "How do you feel about how you think God feels about you?"—it’s almost unbearable. Deep down, many of us are suspicious. We wonder: Does God really love me? Is He really _delighted_ to save me? Or did He save me out of obligation—some legal technicality of grace—and now He just kind of tolerates me?

Brothers and sisters, hear us: **God really does love you.** And not in some thin, sentimental way. His love is deeper, stronger, more sure than anything you've ever imagined.

## God's Love Was Never Transactional

Ephesians 1 blows the doors off of any suspicion we might have. Paul writes that before the foundation of the world—before we had done anything good or bad—God chose us in Christ. He predestined us to be adopted as sons.

This means that God's love for us isn’t based on how lovable we are. It’s based on His unchanging character and His eternal plan of grace. He didn’t look into the future, see us at our best, and then decide we were worth it. No, He loved us first. He loved us freely.

As Dan Krueger pointed out in our conversation, the believers in Ephesus came out of a polytheistic culture where the gods were capricious and fickle. People lived every day under the crushing burden of wondering, "Have I done enough to appease the gods today?" Paul's letter to them—and to us—proclaims something radically different: **The true God has loved you before you could ever do anything to deserve it.**

## We Struggle to Believe It

We struggle because everything around us teaches us conditional love. Even the best human relationships are often transactional. Perform well, and you're accepted. Fail, and love is withheld.

Because of that, it’s hard for us to comprehend a love that is unconditional, everlasting, and freely given. It's hard to believe that the Father doesn’t just love us in some abstract, cold way, but that He _delights_ in us. Yet, Scripture insists that He does.

In John 17, when Jesus prays for His people, He says that the Father loves us even as He loves the Son (John 17:23). Think about that. The kind of love the Father has for Jesus—the perfect, eternal love between the members of the Trinity—is the kind of love He has for you.

No wonder Paul says in Ephesians 3 that we need _strength_ to comprehend the breadth, length, height, and depth of the love of Christ. We can barely wrap our minds around it. We live every day needing to be reminded: **We are loved indeed.**

## The Enemy Wants You to Doubt

Why is it so important to know we are loved? Because the enemy’s primary strategy is to make us doubt it.

In Ephesians 6, when Paul talks about spiritual warfare and putting on the armor of God, he’s not giving us a list of things to do to be better Christians. He’s telling us to stand in the truth of the gospel. The belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness, the shield of faith—these aren’t things we conjure up. They are all about standing in Christ’s finished work.

Satan accuses us by pointing out our sin and failures. He leverages our suspicion against us. He twists God’s law out of context and tries to convince us that we're still condemned. But the gospel is clear: **There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).**

When Satan accuses, Jesus stands as our advocate (1 John 2:1). And He’s not pleading a weak case. He’s standing there in all His righteousness, saying, "I lived for them. I died for them. They are mine."

## God's Love Fuels Everything

When you know you are loved by God in Christ—really know it—everything changes.

* **Obedience becomes joyful** instead of fearful. We don’t obey to earn love; we obey because we are already loved beyond measure.
* **Confession becomes honest** instead of frantic. We don't have to prove we're sorry enough; we come to a Father who already embraces us.
* **Endurance becomes possible.** Life is hard. But knowing that God's love is unwavering gives us the strength to keep walking.

We aren't working for His love. We're working _from_ His love.

## Final Thought

The greatest evidence of God's love for you isn’t found in your feelings, your performance, or your circumstances. It’s found in Jesus Christ—crucified, risen, reigning, and coming again.

God loved you before you were born. He loves you now in the midst of all your struggles and failures. And He will love you forever.

Take a deep breath, weary pilgrim. Rest in Christ.

You are loved indeed.

---

### Christ's Victory Over the Principalities and Powers Part 4

*Published: April 20, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/christs-victory-over-the-principalities-and-powers-part-4*

This article is a summary from the following sermon: [The Cross: The Trojan Horse of Hell](https://www.youtube.com/live/Qfizi3w6VOg?si=ful6oPzHtK5c6X-%5F) by Jon Moffitt

We've been spending the last few weeks pulling back the curtain—seeing the depth of Christ’s victory, not just over sin, but over the rulers, authorities, and powers of darkness. And today, we come to the final piece: how the cross became the Trojan horse of hell.

Our anchor text is still Colossians 2:

> “And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by cancelling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.” (Colossians 2:13–15)

Jesus didn’t just forgive us. He humiliated the powers of darkness. He crushed Satan’s head, just as God had promised all the way back in Genesis 3:15.

But Satan didn’t see it coming.

## The Satanic Gospel

There’s a gospel straight from hell. It wears church clothes, uses Bible words, and sounds close enough to the real thing to deceive even well-meaning Christians.

Here’s how it goes:

* "God wants you healthy, wealthy, and comfortable."
* "Your main problem is you just aren't trying hard enough."
* "Obey, give, serve, and believe—and God will owe you blessings."

But what happens when that gospel fails? When the marriage doesn’t get better? When the cancer doesn’t go away? When the money doesn’t show up?

You start to wonder if God failed—or if you did. Either way, you’re crushed. And that's exactly the point.

The satanic gospel makes you love a god who doesn’t exist—and hate the one who does.

It’s brilliant. And it’s deadly.

And if we're honest, we'd admit we want that gospel to be true. We want a God who answers all our prayers, gives us the life we dream of, and fits into our plans.

But that's not reality. It’s fantasy.

And Satan loves it when we chase a fantasy, because while we’re doing that, we stay enslaved.

## The Inverted Gospel of Jesus Christ

The true gospel is upside-down. It's foolishness to the world (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Our King didn't come riding a war horse with armies behind him. He came in weakness, humility, and shame. He laid his life down for his enemies.

And in doing so, he conquered.

Satan’s gospel says:

* "Climb higher."
* "Take control."
* "Protect yourself."
* "Exalt yourself."

Jesus says:

* "Humble yourself."
* "Lose your life to find it."
* "Trust me, even when you can't see."

That’s why faith doesn’t come by sight. It comes by hearing. (Romans 10:17)

We walk not by what we see, but by what we hear from the Word of Christ.

That’s why so many struggle. That's why the real gospel feels almost ridiculous. Because everything in us wants to measure, touch, and control.

But the real gospel demands faith—faith in a King who conquered by dying.

## The Trojan Horse of Hell

Satan thought he had won at the cross.

The Son of God humiliated, beaten, mocked, nailed to a tree. Cursed. Abandoned.

It must have looked like the ultimate victory for the kingdom of darkness.

But the cross was the Trojan horse.

Like the people of Troy pulling the Greek horse into their gates, Satan pulled Jesus onto the cross—and in doing so, he let the very power of God inside his own stronghold.

The moment of triumph became the moment of defeat.

Jesus didn’t lose at the cross—He triumphed.

He paid the debt. He canceled the record of sin that Satan used to accuse us. He disarmed the powers. He put them to open shame.

The cross looked like humiliation. It was actually the coronation of the King.

## How the Resurrection Changes Everything

When Jesus rose from the grave, He didn’t just come back to life.

He declared to all creation:

* Death has been defeated.
* Sin has been paid for.
* Satan has lost.

He stormed the gates of hell itself, took the keys of death and Hades (Revelation 1:18), and set the captives free.

He didn’t just survive death. He conquered it.

And now He sends us—His church—into the world to storm the gates of hell. Not with swords or threats, but with the gospel of grace.

The gates of hell cannot prevail against the advance of the gospel (Matthew 16:18).

Every time the gospel is proclaimed and believed, another captive is set free.

## Living in the True Reality

The world will tell you the cross was weakness. Fantasy. A waste.

But we know better.

We know that true reality—the one we can't see yet fully with our eyes—is that Christ reigns. The victory has been won. Satan has been shamed.

We live in the already, waiting for the not yet.

We don't fight to win. We fight because Christ has already won.

And even when it feels dark—even when the world mocks us, when suffering presses in, when we feel the weight of our own sin—we stand.

Not because we are strong, but because Christ is.

We walk by faith, not by sight.

We look not to the things that are seen, but to the things that are unseen. (2 Corinthians 4:18)

Because what is seen is temporary—but what is unseen is eternal.

## Take Heart, Christian

If you feel weak today, you’re exactly where you need to be.

This gospel isn’t for the strong. It’s for the broken.

It’s for sinners who can’t save themselves.

It’s for the weary who are done trying to be enough.

The victory doesn't rest on your performance. It rests on Christ’s finished work.

He has triumphed. He has disarmed the powers. He has set you free.

So cling to Him.

Trust what you hear in the gospel—not what you see in the mirror, or in the world, or in your circumstances.

Faith comes by hearing. And the Word you’ve heard is this:

**Jesus Christ has conquered. And you are His.**

---

### The Biblical and Historical Problems with Spiritual Disciplines Part 3

*Published: April 18, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-6*

Jon Moffitt

My previous two articles have focused on Roman Catholic theology and its slow entry back into mainstream Christianity. Until the 1970’s, it was difficult to find any popular materials or teachers speaking on the subject of spiritual disciplines. Research uncovers that Richard Foster, Dallas Willard and Don Whitney are the three most influential writers/teachers to have given this movement sustained credibility.

This man centered approach to sanctification has been introduced back into Christianity and has now infiltrated the majority of books written on the subject. Because of these three men, practicing spiritual disciplines for spiritual growth in sanctification is now the norm and not the exception. What was once limited to the writings of a few puritan authors, and limited to the teachings of a few revivalist preachers, is now a mainstream theological concept in the Christian church? Ask any Christian if they have heard of the concept of spiritual disciplines and most likely they will give you a short list of required actions.

I have examined the writings of these three men in order to further demonstrate that the theology behind these disciplines is not based on sound biblical teaching but rather based on ancient Roman Catholic theology. I mentioned this quote from Foster in my first article, and I think it helps explain how these authors have been influenced. Foster writes,

> When I first began writing in the field in the late 70s and early 80s the term “Spiritual Formation” was hardly known, except for highly specialized references in relation to the Catholic orders.[\[1\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fedn1)

  
Foster is clearly versed in the writings of these orders and makes references often in his books. In his book _Celebration of Discipline,_ in his teachings on “Forms of Meditation,” Foster writes, “Seek to live the experience, remembering the encouragement of Ignatius of Loyola to apply all our senses to our task.”[\[2\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fedn2)

As detailed in my second article, Ignatius started the Jesuit movement, and was one of the prominent men who led the counter-reformation against Luther and Calvin. Ignatius openly denied the gospel of grace and directly opposed the reformers in his writings. Ignatius is not the only Roman Catholic influence in Foster’s theology. In the middle of the 20th century, Thomas Merton was a man famously known as a Trappist monk in Gethsemani, KY. He wrote more than 70 books the on subject of [spirituality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality). One of Merton’s best loved books was his autobiography [The Seven Storey Mountain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The%5FSeven%5FStorey%5FMountain) (1948). Foster, in an attempt to encourage the Roman Catholic concept of meditation, points his readers to Merton’s writings,

> Thomas Merton writes that the person “… who has meditated on the Passion of Christ but has not meditated on the extermination camps of Dachau and Auschwitz has not yet fully entered into the experience of Christianity in our time.”[\[3\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fedn3)

One last example of an influencer of Foster’s Roman Catholic theological leanings is a man by the name of Henri Nouwen. Nouwen was known for teaching that God is already within every human. He writes, “The God who dwells in our inner sanctuary is the same as the one who dwells in the inner sanctuary of each human being.”[\[4\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fedn4) Foster encourages his readers to partake in Nouwen’s theology of meditation in the opening quote of his book on _The Discipline of Solitude._ Henri Nouwen has noted that

> _…without solitude it is virtually impossible to lead a spiritual life.” Why is this so? Because, in solitude, we are freed from our bondage to people and our inner compulsions, and we are freed to love God and know compassion for others._[_\[5\]_](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fedn5)

Foster positively introduced three of the most popular catholic mystic writers (two of them from the 20th century) as experts in spiritual growth. Foster never warns us about their misunderstanding of the gospel. He doesn’t provide a foot note about their Roman Catholic background. He simply presents them as authorities on the matter. This is important because Foster’s book is the foundation for the modern-day spiritual disciplines movement. Foster’s impact is greater than most Christians realize.

Most people would not consider Foster’s teaching on spiritual disciplines to be dangerous or damaging because they are not aware he was a quaker mystic who embraced Catholic theology. Conservative evangelicals have noticed Foster’s influence on Christian thinking and unfortunately have embraced it. In the forward of Don Whitney’s book _Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life_, J.I Packer wrote,

> Ever since Richard Foster rang the bell with his Celebration of Discipline (1978), discussing the various spiritual disciplines has become a staple element of conservative Christian in-talk in North America. This is a happy thing.

Dallas Willard is the second author/teacher who has had a large influence in popularizing the spiritual disciplines movement, and he was also a strong influence in both Foster and Whitney’s theology. Willard writes,

> I want to explain, with some precision and detailed fullness, how activities such as solitude, silence, fasting, prayer, service, celebration— disciplines for life in the spiritual kingdom of God and activities in which Jesus deeply immersed himself— are essential to the deliverance of human beings from the concrete power of sin and how they can make the experience of the easy yoke a reality in life. By focusing on the whole of Christ’s life and the lives of many who have best succeeded in following him, I will outline a psychologically and theologically sound, testable way to meet grace and fully conform to him.[\[6\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fedn6)

Willard’s list of activities (solitude, silence and fasting, among others) are never described in scripture as being able to relieve the power of sin in one’s life. Willard calls his readers to focus on imitating Christ’s life and those who have “best succeeded in following him” to help further sanctify themselves. Christ, however, calls us to faith in Him and His works. Willard has placed the reader’s faith in their faithfulness (their ability to complete these actions), which ultimately points away from faith in Christ’s ability to accomplish righteousness in us. Willard actually argues for this very point on his website,

> Sometimes we think of spiritual formation as formation by the Holy Spirit. Once again. That’s essential. . . . But now I have to say something that may be challenging for you to think about: Spiritual formation is not all by the Holy Spirit. . . . We have to recognize that spiritual formation in us is something that is also done to us by those around us, by ourselves, and by activities which we voluntarily undertake . . .There has to be method.[\[7\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fedn7)

Don Whitney is the last of the three authors I am going to review, and of the three, he is the most widely accepted among conservative and some reformed Christians. The influence of both Foster’s and Willard’s writings are very evident in Whitney’s theology. To be fair, Whitney does not go as far as some do in promoting Roman Catholic practices or writings, but he still embraces the belief that practicing certain actions will produce spiritual growth. Early in his book, Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life Whitney states, “I will maintain that the only road to Christian maturity and Godliness passes through the practice of the Spiritual Disciplines.”[\[8\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fedn8)

Because Whitney has partially embraced this Roman Catholic view of spiritual growth, it confuses important biblical doctrines such as assurance, which the reformers specifically left the Roman Catholic Church over. Whitney, in an attempt to urge Christians towards spiritual disciplines, writes,

> And so, the urgent question every Christian should ask is, “How then shall I pursue holiness, the holiness without which I will not see the Lord? How can I become more like Jesus Christ?” We find a clear answer in 1 Timothy 4: 7: “Discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness”(NASB). In other words, if your purpose is godliness — and godliness is your purpose if you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, for He makes godliness your purpose — then how do you pursue that purpose? According to this verse, you “discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness.[\[9\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fedn9)

I believe that Whitney would reject any notion that our good works are the basis of our salvation. However, Whitney’s logic concludes that unless I am demonstrating godliness I will not see Christ; therefore I must be diligent to practice spiritual disciplines so that I can see Christ. The “righteousness required” mentioned in Hebrews 12:14 is not a righteousness of my own, but that of Christ’s. It is imputed righteousness. If Whitney is correct, how much righteousness is enough to be acceptable?

Lastly, I want to draw attention to a new book by David Mathis, Executive Editor for Desiring God Ministries, entitled Habits of Grace: Enjoying Jesus Through Spiritual Disciplines. This is the most recent book to gain traction in promoting spiritual disciplines. This book has received much praise and has some big contributors behind it, such as John Piper, Don Whitney, Tim Challies, Jerry Bridges, and even D.A. Carson.

I believe some of these men have endorsed the book because of the reformed view it has appeared to have taken. Mathis uses the language “means of grace” as his baseline reasoning for the spiritual disciplines. While this is a very reformed concept for how we grow in Christ, the problem lies in that Mathis is only creating a bridge between Don Whitney’s book and a reformed view of the means of grace. In the preface he openly admits to the influence of Whitney’s book on his own theology, and it is noticeable in how many times Whitney’s book is referenced. Mathis, in stating his purpose for the book, writes,

> In particular, I am eager to help Christians young and old simplify their approach to their various personal habits of grace, or spiritual disciplines, by highlighting the three key principles of ongoing grace: hearing God’s voice (his word), having his ear (prayer), and belonging to his body (fellowship).[\[10\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fedn10)

Mathis isn’t offering any new ideas even though it sounds as though he will be taking a reformed approached to this subject. He is simply changing the terms and then giving the same instructions as Foster, Willard and Whitney. He openly admits this very concern,

> Whatever the term, the key is that God has revealed certain channels through which he regularly pours out his favor. And we’re foolish not to take his word on them and build habits of spiritual life around them.[\[11\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fedn11)

Once again, the dilemma presented by Mathis is that I am required to perform certain actions to receive favor from my Father. The call is not to place our faith in Christ and trust that His righteousness, imputed to us, is all we need to find favor with our Father.

[\[1\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fednref1) //[web.archive.org/web/20100601012402///www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=744](http://web.archive.org/web/20100601012402///www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=744)

[\[2\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fednref2) Foster, Richard. Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth, 29.

[\[3\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fednref3) Ibid, 32.

[\[4\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fednref4) Nouwen, Henri. Here and Now, p. 22.

[\[5\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fednref5) Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth, chapter 7.

[\[6\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fednref6) Willard, Dallas. The Spirit of the Disciplines, p.10.

[\[7\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fednref7) //[www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=58](http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=58)

[\[8\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fednref8) Whitney, Don. Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life, p. 16-17.

[\[9\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fednref9) Ibid, p. 4.

[\[10\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fednref10) Mathis, Davis. Habits of Grace, p. 16.

[\[11\]](https://theocast.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-3/#%5Fednref11) Ibid, p. 27.

---

### The Biblical and Historical Problems with Spiritual Disciplines Part 2

*Published: April 18, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-5*

Jon Moffitt

Over the last 400 years Christianity has slowly slipped away from a reformed understanding of _sola fide,_ or a life lived by faith alone in Christ, as it concerns our sanctification and have embraced a hybrid of Roman Catholic theology and Evangelicalism. It is commonly believed that we are saved by grace through faith alone, but we are then handed the responsibility of our own sanctification achieved through external effort. The aim of this second article ([adapted from my lecture series](https://cbcnashville.org/event/simplelife/2016-08-28/)) is to demonstrate a gradual shift back to Roman Catholicism through the subtle teaching of spiritual disciplines.

During the protestant reformation of the 16th century, the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) responded by starting what was called the “counter reformation.”1 Ignatius of Loyola founded a group called the Jesuits (also known as the Society of Jesus) who were the main thrust behind the movement. Most of Ignatius’ writings were attacks against the protestant teachings of Luther and Calvin.

Ignatius is most famous for his book _The Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola_ (composed 1522–1524). Ignatius leads his readers through a series of mystical ascetic practices believing they will lead to greater spiritual awareness and growth.

Ignatius’ theology was rejected by the reformers because it openly attacked the doctrine of sola fide. As mentioned in the [first article](https://musingsofgrace.org/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-1-notes/), many of the confessions and writings of the reformers charted a course steering their readers far away from this traditional RCC view of spiritual growth.

Martin Luther wrote a staunch warning against ascetic theology,

> Yet all these seeming holy actions of devotion…are nothing else but works of the flesh. All manner of religion, where people serve God without his Word and command, is simply idolatry, and the more holy and spiritual such a religion seems, the more hurtful and venomous it is; for it leads people away from the faith of Christ, and makes them rely and depend upon their own strength, works, and righteousness. In like manner, all kinds of orders of monks, fasts, prayers, hairy shirts…are mere works of the flesh.2

So how did Ignatius’ theology and other RCC teachings on spiritual growth find their way back into popular evangelicalism? It only took 100 years before protestants began to embrace the very theology against which the reformers protested. Pastor and American church historian Charles E. Hambrick-Stowe observed,

> Puritans knew and used classic Catholic devotional works. The most popular, judging from the number of editions, were the works of St. Augustine, St. Bernard of Clairvaux, Thomas à Kempis’s perennial The Imitation of Christ, and the primers…It was not unheard of for a Protestant to pirate the work of a Catholic writer and present himself as the author…Perhaps most important, excerpts and phrases from medieval classics and Church Fathers worked their way silently into Protestant devotional manuals, sermons, and treatises and so were passed on to the laity.3

The church historian Richard Lovelace wrote,

> It is not surprising that Puritan writings are saturated with references to patristic authors. There are more references to the fathers than to Luther and Calvin. Puritanism is thus a bridge movement in which modern evangelicals and Roman Catholics may find spiritual common roots. Cotton Mather’s omnivorous spiritual appetite smuggled in many Catholic devices: short ejaculatory prayers, vows and intentions of piety, and day- and night-long vigils (depriving one’s sleep).4

It is noteworthy to mention that the early writings of the reformers never mention spiritual disciplines or spiritual formation. The puritans of the 17th century are the earliest protestants I could find who embraced spiritual disciplines and taught them to their congregations.

Richard Lovelace believes that many of the practices we have today originated from puritan theology.

> Modern evangelical spirituality has retained many instruments pioneered during this era. The “quiet time” at the outset of the day springs directly from the Scripture reading and reflection prescribed for Puritan laity. The Puritans added graces at meals, prayer with spouses, and household devotions at the evening meal. Beyond this they recommended continual short prayers during the day, and also “occasional reflections”—mystical insights drawn from the symbolic meaning of events and objects, a devotion tracing back to the medieval Victorine theologians. Puritans invented the use of spiritual diaries as a kind of Protestant substitute for the confessional.5

I do not believe that any of these actions are sinful or unbiblical. We are commanded to pray and encouraged to engage God’s word. However, many Puritans were creating new practices (spiritual disciplines) and placing the value upon performing them instead of trusting in the promises already given to them in Scripture.

I will admit that it can be difficult at times to see how Puritan teaching is harmful or wrong. Most Puritan theology is not misleading or unbiblical. I’m not warning against all Puritan teaching. I simply want to point out the subtle shift back to RCC influence in their writings concerning how we grow spiritually and how we view our daily responsibilities before God.

As we continue to move through history, the concept of external effort leading to spiritual growth gains traction, but Roman Catholic theology is never overtly embraced. Puritan writings do not promote Catholic resources as do authors like Richard Foster and Dallas Willard.6

During the 18th century, American Christians became deeply influenced by the mind of Jonathan Edwards. Edwards’ 70 resolutions has had a large impact on how Christians think about their daily life in Christ. I would encourage you to read his resolutions and note where Edwards talks of placing his trust in the Spirit’s power to accomplish these resolutions. You will be hard pressed to find him mention faith, belief, or trust when it comes to Christ’s work on our behalf to accomplish these resolutions.

I would consider Edwards to be a solid believer who trusted and taught the gospel faithfully. When it came to sanctification, Edwards was deeply influenced by Puritan theology and had embraced a Roman Catholic understanding, perhaps unknowingly.

Two brothers that helped the evangelicals shift away from a faith-driven sanctification were John and Charles Westley. These men emphasized personal holiness by means of methods leading to the founding of the Methodist movement. Methodist professor Randy Maddox wrote in _Christianity Today_ that John Wesley,

> …championed pursuit of holiness through spiritual disciplines, typically describing the Christian’s goal as “perfect love.” Simultaneously, he issued denials of any “perfect” holiness in this life.7

I would not describe Wesley’s view of spiritual formation as the same as Foster or Willard. Wesley did, however, start a trend of confusion because of his emphasis on personal holiness that leads to perfection. The emphasis of the Christian life became more about achieving “perfect love” then about living by faith in Christ.8

Finally, in the 19th century we see the rise of revivalism in America. Charles Finney has been described as “The Father of Modern Revivalism.”9I mention Finney here because of his strong influence away from historical biblical theology. In his systematic theology Finney asks, “Does a Christian cease to be a Christian, whenever he commits a sin?” He answers,

> Whenever he sins, he must, for the time being, cease to be holy…The Christian, therefore, is justified no longer than he obeys, and must be condemned when he disobeys; or Antinomianism is true…In these respects, then, the sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground.

> Many other influential preachers would follow Finney’s theology and tactics throughout the rest of the 19th and into the early 20th centuries. Two of the most well know men were Billy Sunday and D.L. Moody. They too would attempt to change America’s lack of godliness through moralistic preaching. By this time in American history, reformed theology was on the decline, and morality-driven sermons were on the rise.10

Conclusion: This was a quick demonstration of how Americans have been conditioned to accept moralistic teaching and self-effort improvement over the past several hundred years. The further we move away from the reformation the closer we are to returning to a Roman Catholic theology concerning spiritual growth and piety.

In part three of this series we are going to examine the modern day promoters of spiritual disciplines and their source material. What was once rejected by the reformers in the 16th century is now openly being promoted as helpful and evangelical in the majority of spiritual disciplines material.

  
Recommended Resources: 

* [A Simple Life Of Faith: Examining Spiritual Disciplines (audio)](https://cbcnashville.org/event/simplelife/2016-08-28/)
* [Are Spiritual Disciplines Biblical? (Theocast)](https://musingsofgrace.org/are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical/)
* [Spiritual Disciplines? We asked R. Scott Clark (Theocast) ](https://musingsofgrace.org/spiritual-disciplines-we-asked-r-scott-clark/)

1 //[www.britannica.com/event/Counter-Reformation](http://www.britannica.com/event/Counter-Reformation)

2 Tabletalk, 1626 AD

3 Hambrick-Stowe, Charles E. (1982-01-01). The Practice of Piety: Puritan Devotional Disciplines in Seventeenth-Century New England (Published for the Omohundro Institute of Early American History and Culture, Williamsburg, Virginia) (Kindle Locations 596-602)

4 Lovelace, 31

5 Ibid, 30.

6 I will give examples of this in my next article.

7 Maddox, Randy L. Be Ye Perfect? The evolution of John Wesley’s most contentious doctrine. //[www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-69/be-ye-perfect.html](http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-69/be-ye-perfect.html)

8 Ibid.

9 Hankins, Barry (2004), The Second Great Awakening and the Transcendentalists, Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, p. 137, ISBN 0-313-31848-4.

10 For further reading on this point in history. Marsden, George M. Fundamentalism and American Culture. New York: Oxford UP, 2006.

---

### The Biblical and Historical Problems with Spiritual Disciplines Part 1

*Published: April 18, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-4*

Jon Moffitt

Let’s take a quick simple survey: Can you name five spiritual disciplines? What do you believe is the most important discipline? What do you believe is the purpose of the disciplines?

When this survey is given to a crowd of 10 people or more, I have typically seen several different answers…though everyone’s lists are not the same, there will be some similarities. So who’s right? The last survey question is the most important of the three, “What do you believe is the purpose of the disciplines?” The most common answers I receive are:

* To help us grow in Christ
* To help us be more effective Christians
* To help us meet requirements for sanctification
* To earn God’s favor or blessing on earth

Last year I was asked by the young adults in my ministry to do a series on the spiritual disciplines (also known as spiritual formation). I spent several months working through any book or article I could get my hands on. Very early on in my study I was able to gain greater understanding about how most people develop their motivation for spiritual disciplines.

Every author I read was promoting a particular list of disciplines that if practiced diligently would provide spiritual growth. I became deeply discouraged over time as I discovered a theological thread that was not biblically or historically accurate. I have yet to find a book written on this subject that doesn’t promote external efforts as the means to spiritual growth.

I do want to clarify my last statement. There are good men who have written on this subject. They have clearly stated that we cannot grow in our sanctification without the work of the Spirit in our lives. Some with great enthusiasm promote the power of the Spirit to transform us. The confusion comes with how these authors partner the Spirit’s work with our work in sanctification.

This caused such great confusion in my own study as I worked through the mounds of books and articles. Every author I read led the reader away from a faith-centered focus on sanctification toward a self-effort system. In my opinion, Christianity has been deeply affected by this teaching. For instance, I have given the survey above to a number of people over the last year. No one has ever listed “faith” as one of their five disciplines. Even more revealing is that no one ever picked faith to be the most important discipline. Sadly, most churches today teach that we are justified by faith alone but are sanctified through spiritual disciplines.

Before diving into the biblical and historical problems with the modern-day view of spiritual disciplines, I think it would be helpful to establish what has been taught historically on the biblical view of sanctification. Paul, in writing to the Galatians, asks a very clarifying question, 

> _Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh (Galatians 3:2-3)?_

We are justified by faith, and we are sanctified by faith _alone._ This view of sanctification is not new and has been confessed by churches for hundreds of years. The 1689 Second London Baptist Confession holds that believers and “…their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ.”1

The Westminster Shorter Catechism states, “…for we are not sanctified, except by faith uniting us to Christ.”2 And later on it teaches that,

> _The Spirit of God maketh the reading, but especially the preaching, of the Word, an effectual means of convincing and converting sinners, and of building them up in holiness and comfort, through faith, unto salvation.3_

Historically, the church has objected to any type of external effort to achieve sanctification or holiness before God. Those who promote spiritual disciplines have slipped away from the traditional biblical view and have introduced a hybrid of biblical concepts meshed with Roman Catholicism and Mysticism.

From what I have observed, there are three major authors who have had the greatest influence in the church concerning spiritual disciplines: Richard Foster, Dallas Willard, and Don Whitney. We will examine other prominent teachers later on in the series, but for now we are going to look at how this theological perspective was ignited by these three men.

Richard Foster, who is a Quaker writer and theologian, wrote a book in 1978 entitled, _Celebration of Discipline_:

> _…inner righteousness is a gift from God to be graciously received. The needed change within us is God’s work, not ours.4_

This statement seems to align with the historical view, right? But the next paragraph demonstrates the confusion I found in how he tries to infuse the two concepts together:

> _God has given us the Disciplines of the spiritual life as a means of receiving his grace. The Disciplines allow us to place ourselves before God so that he can transform us.5_

To point back to historical teaching earlier, Foster has added an element to our spiritual growth. Unless we practice certain actions, we will not be receiving the grace needed to progress in our spiritual growth. This is a perfect example of hybrid theology: mixing biblical teaching with Mystic and Jesuit practice (I will explain this point later in the article). In his book, Foster provides an extensive list of various disciplines that help assist in our transformation, example: such as simplicity, solitude, submission, and service to name a few. The problem with this list is that Scripture never states that any of these actions produces spiritual transformation.

Another author/teacher that has influenced Foster greatly is Dallas Willard. In 1988, Willard wrote _The Spirit of the Disciplines: Understanding How God Changes Lives_. He states that,

> _Today, for the first time in our history as a nation, we are being presented with a characteristic range of human behaviors such as fasting, meditation, simple living, and submission to a spiritual overseer, in an attractive light. Though still regarded by too few as essentials of Christian living, such practices are widely studied as possibly one important aid to being an effective Christian.6_

What Willard openly admits is that what he was teaching has been rejected for hundreds of years. The next quote from Willard is very important because he admits that material on spiritual disciplines have only come about recently:

> _Lectures, seminars, retreats, and books and articles on them enjoy a popularity that was utterly inconceivable fifteen years ago \[emphasis added\]. They are increasingly looked to as a reliable means of growth in spiritual substance toward maturity in Christ.7_

I researched Willard’s claim to see if this was accurate. Google allows you to search books by subject and date. I did a search for books that contained “spiritual disciplines,” “formation,” and “exercise” in two different date ranges. My first search was from 1400’s to 1977 and yielded two pages of results. There were five to six books from the 1960’s that had the title but were not available to read. I then did the same search from 1978 to the present and google provided 27 pages of results. As I scrolled through the results I noticed the number of authors that have written on this subject in the past forty years has exploded.

The specific reason I chose those dates was based upon Willard’s comments and Richard Foster’s first book, _Celebration of Discipline,_ written in 1978\. In 2004, Foster openly expressed in an article that,

> _When I first began writing in the field in the late 70s and early 80s the term “Spiritual Formation” was hardly known, except for highly specialized references in relation to the Catholic orders.8_

The rest of this series will be dedicated to demonstrating the historical point Foster just made. What is being taught today is not historical Christianity. Practicing spiritual disciplines has felt normal for years because it has been cunningly slipped into the evangelical church as biblical. What was once deemed Roman Catholic and anti-gospel is now fully accepted and taught to be necessary for spiritual growth. The end of Foster’s quote states, “Today it is a rare person who has not heard the term. Seminary courses in Spiritual Formation proliferate like baby rabbits.”9 It is shocking to most people when I bring up my objections. We have assumed what we have heard is biblical…because it sounds biblical.

The goal of these articles is to show how Foster and Willard have adopted a non-biblical view of spiritual growth and how it has spread throughout Christianity in the last 40 years. Many of the sources Foster and Willard use and encourage their readers to engage in are Roman Catholics, Jesuits, Mystics, and open theists (we will be reviewing this material closely in upcoming articles).

Sadly, in recent history, the reformed (and what is known as the Calvinistic crowd) have embraced this misleading theology as well. The most well-known and accepted book among many conservative and reformed Christians today is Don Whitney’s book _Spiritual Disciplines For The Christian Life._ Whitney wrote that, “the only road to Christian maturity and Godliness passes through the practice of the Spiritual Disciplines.”10

As stated earlier, the reformed and historical Christian faith has taught that we are saved and sanctified by grace alone, through faith alone. Whitney provides a list of disciplines as means necessary to establishing spiritual growth:

> _This book examines the Spiritual Disciplines of Bible intake, prayer, worship, evangelism, service, stewardship, fasting, silence and solitude, journaling, and learning. This is by no means, however, an exhaustive list of the Disciplines of Christian living. A survey of other literature on this subject would reveal that confession, accountability, simplicity, submission, spiritual direction, celebration, affirmation, sacrifice, ‘watching,’ and more also qualify as Spiritual Disciplines.11_

It would be easy to find many of the disciplines Whitney provided in the Bible (I don’t agree with his use of them, but at least they can be found); Disciplines like Bible intake, prayer, worship, and evangelism. My next article will take a look at some of the disciplines Whitney suggests and see how they are rooted in Jesuit and mystical religions. As stated earlier, much of Foster’s and Willard’s books promote the same type of disciplines, and I believe Whitney has been influenced by them as well.

One last observation about Whitney’s list is that he explains there are “more” than just the list he provided. Whitney has just removed any boundaries concerning what causes spiritual growth in a believer. The danger in this logic is that if it looks or sounds spiritual, it can be used for spiritual growth. Thankfully, I’m not the first to recognize the problem and danger in this logic.

D.A. Carson writes,

> _It is not helpful to list assorted Christian responsibilities and label them spiritual disciplines. That seems to be the reasoning behind the theology that smuggles in, say, creation care and almsgiving. But by the same logic, if out of Christian kindness you give a back rub to an old lady with a stiff neck and a sore shoulder, then back rubbing becomes a spiritual discipline.12_

The danger in Whitney’s view is that it begins to create rules or laws that the Bible never promises would benefit the believer. For instance Scripture never promises if you live a simple or poor life that you will grow in sanctification. But this concept has been taught for hundreds of years in many forms. Earlier in the article Carson observes,

> _…some of these so-called spiritual disciplines are entirely divorced from any specific doctrine whatsoever…they are merely a matter of technique. That is why people sometimes say, “For your doctrine, by all means commit yourselves to evangelical confessionalism. But when it comes to the spiritual disciplines, turn to Catholicism or perhaps Buddhism.13_

Dr. Carson’s observation aligns perfectly with what I have found written in much of these authors’ material. Dr. Carson concludes that this type of teaching,

> _… subtly cajoles us into thinking that growth in spirituality is a function of nothing more than conformity to the demands of a lot of rules, of a lot of obedience.14_

This is why the study of historical theology is so important. Much of what is taught today concerning spiritual disciplines has been rejected for hundreds of years for biblical reasons. Modern Christianity has only recently embraced them in the last 40 years because of the ignorance concerning former heretical teaching. In my next few articles, I am going to demonstrate from Foster, Willard, and Whitney’s books that they have embraced a non-biblical view developed by Jesuit, Roman Catholic and Mystic theology. 

I want to keep clarifying my position so that the contrasts can be clearly seen throughout the rest of the articles. Faith is the only means by which we are transformed. In closing, here are a couple of quotes from the 16th century explaining the historical biblical view of sanctification. I picked these quotes because they are written by men who were fighting the very theology Foster and Willard are now embracing. The Belgic Confession of the Reformed Faith written in 1561 states,

> _Therefore it is impossible that this holy faith can be unfruitful in man; for we do not speak of a vain faith, but of such a faith which is called in Scripture a “faith working through love”, which excites man to the practice of those works which God has commanded in His Word.15Therefore we do good works, but not to merit by them (for what can we merit?); nay, we are indebted to God for the good works we do, and not He to us, since it is He who “worketh in us both to will and to work, for his good pleasure”.16_

And lastly, John Calvin in the _Acts of the Council of Trent_ wrote,

> _In short, I affirm, that not by our own merit but by faith alone, are both our persons and works justified; and that the justification of works \[sanctification\]depends on the justification \[forensic\] of the person, as the effect on the cause.17_

Calvin’s point is that we are both justified and sanctified by Faith ALONE.

Next week I am going to trace the concept of spiritual disciplines back to the 16th century and demonstrate why it was rejected by believers then and why there is a large gap between 16th century and 1978.

  
Recommended Resources:

* [A Simple Life Of Faith: Examining Spiritual Disciplines (audio)](https://cbcnashville.org/event/simplelife/2016-08-28/)
* [Are Spiritual Disciplines Biblical? (Theocast)](https://musingsofgrace.org/are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical/)
* [Spiritual Disciplines (D.A. Carson)](https://themelios.thegospelcoalition.org/article/spiritual-disciplines)

1 The London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 Kindle Edition, Chapter 16, point 3.

2 Westminster Shorter Catechism, question 29.

3 Ibid, question 89.

4 Foster, Richard J. Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth. San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1988, 6\. 5 Ibid, 7.

6 Willard, Dallas. The Spirit of the Disciplines: Understanding How God Changes Lives. San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1988, 17.

7 Ibid.

8 Foster, Richard J. Spiritual Formation: A Pastoral Letter. //[web.archive.org/web/20100601012402///www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=744](http://web.archive.org/web/20100601012402///www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=744)

9 Ibid.

10 Whitney, Donald S. Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life. Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress, 1991, 16-17.

11 Ibid.

12 Carson, D.A. Themelios, Volume 36, Issue 3, 378.

13 Ibid, 377-78.

14 Ibid, 379.

15 Belgic Confession, article XXIV.

16 Ibid.

17 Calvin, Jean, and John Dillenberger. John Calvin: Selections from His Writings. Garden City, NY: Anchor Books, 1971, 176.

---

### Truer Words Have Never Been Written: A Reflection on Romans 7:7–20

*Published: April 18, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/truer-words-have-never-been-written-a-reflection-on-romans-7-7-20*

This article is a summary from the following sermon:[ ](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/would-satan-approve-of-your-morality)[Truer Words Have Never Been Written](https://covbap.org/sermons/truer-word-have-never-been-written-romans-77-20/ "Truer Words Have Never Been Written") by Justin Perdue

Beloved, if you’ve ever wondered whether you’re the only Christian who feels constantly at war within yourself, who does what you hate and fails to do what you long for—Romans 7 is for you.

This isn’t a theoretical passage. It’s not abstract theology. This is personal. It’s raw. It's written by a man who knows what it’s like to feel weak, to struggle with sin, and to long for deliverance. The Apostle Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is not describing life before Jesus. He’s describing the Christian life in real time. He’s writing as a man united to Christ, justified by grace, and yet still very much in the fight with his own flesh.

And if that’s where you find yourself, welcome. You’re not crazy. You’re not a fraud. You’re in good company—the company of the saints, the company of Paul.

### 1\. The Law: Good, Holy, and Necessary

Right out of the gate, Paul wants to clear up a misunderstanding: is the law bad? Is it sinful? Should we be suspicious of it because we had to be released from it?

“By no means,” he says. The law isn’t the problem. Sin is.

The law is holy and righteous and good (v. 12). It reflects the very character of God. It’s not defective—it’s divine. But what the law does—and it does this very well—is show us our sin. “If it had not been for the law,” Paul writes, “I would not have known sin” (v. 7).

The law, particularly the moral law of God (think Ten Commandments), doesn’t just give us external standards. It reveals our hearts. Paul uses the example of coveting to make the point. Coveting isn’t just stealing something—it’s desiring something we shouldn't even want. And the law exposes that. It confronts us not just in our behavior, but in our affections, in the deep places of the soul.

So what’s the result?

We see ourselves as we really are.

We see that we’re not okay.

We see that apart from the grace of God, we’re not alive—we’re dead.

Paul says, “I once was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died” (v. 9). What he means is this: there was a time when Paul thought he was doing great. Crushing it. Knocking it out of the park as a Pharisee. Blameless according to the letter of the law.

But then the law came with power—by the Spirit—and exposed him. It killed his confidence in himself. It tore down all his legal hopes. He saw the law for what it really is—spiritual, holy, demanding—and saw himself for what he really was—a sinner, dead in trespasses.

This is the law’s greatest use. It can’t save us, but it can show us our need for a Savior. It reveals the sinfulness of sin. It shows us just how deep the problem goes—not just in our actions but in our desires.

And this? This is grace. Because until we’re cut by the law, we’ll keep trying to live. We’ll keep pretending that sin is manageable. But when the law slays us, it opens us up to life in Jesus.

### 2\. The Flesh: Corrupt, Persistent, and at War with the Spirit

From verse 14 on, Paul shifts gears—but the honesty remains. He says things we’ve all felt but have been afraid to admit:

“I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.”  
“I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.”  
“I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.”

This is not a man glibly excusing sin. This is a regenerate man, a Christian, grieved over what he sees in himself.

He calls it what it is: “sin that dwells within me.” It’s indwelling sin. It’s the flesh. And as he puts it in Galatians 5, the flesh and the Spirit are opposed to each other. They keep us from doing what we want to do.

This is the internal war. And only Christians experience it. Only those born of the Spirit, who have a new heart and new desires, wrestle like this. The unbeliever might feel guilty at times. He might even feel bad. But he doesn’t have this kind of battle raging within.

This is what Calvin said of the Christian: “They are so divided that with the chief desire of the heart they aspire to God...and yet are drawn down to earth by their flesh.”

Sound familiar?

You hate your sin. You grieve over your failure. You wish with all your heart that you could just obey—fully, freely, joyfully—and yet you don’t. You’re not alone. Paul’s right there with you.

So are we.

And Paul even draws a distinction within himself: “It is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me” (v. 17). He’s not dodging responsibility. He’s naming his identity. The “I” in Christ—the regenerate, Spirit-filled Paul—hates the sin he finds himself doing. He doesn’t want it. He doesn’t will it. But the flesh is real. The corruption is still present.

This is what it means to be at the same time justified and sinner.

We are new. And yet we carry around the corpse of the old man.

The flesh isn’t getting better. It’s not reforming. It’s not being sanctified. It’s being put to death. And that’s a slow, painful process that won’t be completed until we see Jesus.

### 3\. We Are Not Christians Because of What We Do

This might sound strange to say in a world full of moralistic religion, but let’s be clear: you are not a Christian because of how well you behave.

You are a Christian because of what you believe about Jesus Christ.

We believe that Jesus is the Son of God incarnate, that He lived under the law and fulfilled it perfectly, that He died to satisfy its penalty, and that He rose from the grave. He is our righteousness. He is our pardon. He is our hope.

If you are trusting in Him, you are righteous in the sight of God—even as you war with sin.

This doesn’t make us casual about sin. If anything, it makes us more aware of how deeply we need Christ’s power to fight it. But we fight because we believe. We pursue holiness because we believe. And when we fall, we run to the throne of grace because we believe.

We don’t obey in order to be loved. We obey because we are loved.

And that changes everything.

### 4\. So What Do We Do With All This?

We keep coming. We keep gathering. We keep hearing the law rightly preached—so we see its goodness and feel its weight. But even more, we keep hearing Christ preached, crucified and risen, for us.

We don’t come to church to be told to do better and try harder. We come to be told that Christ has done it all. We come to be reminded that our standing is not in our performance but in His. We come to hear again that even though we do what we hate and fail to do what we love, we are still safe in the arms of Jesus.

And we need to hear that again. And again. And again.

Because the war is real. The flesh is strong. The guilt is heavy.

But Christ is stronger. His righteousness is ours. And in Him, there is no condemnation.

### Final Thought: Take Heart, Christian

If you’re struggling with sin—really struggling—not just the occasional slip-up but the kind of heart-level war that makes you question everything...

If you feel like a contradiction, like a riddle to yourself...

If you wonder how you can love God and still sin against Him...

Take heart.

You are not alone. And you are not disqualified.

The gospel is for you. Jesus is for you. And He has already won the war.

So even as you groan, even as you fail, even as you cry out—know this:

You are His.

And one day soon, when Christ who is your life appears, you also will appear with Him in glory.

Until then, let’s keep clinging to Jesus together.

---

### The Good and The Bad of New Calvinism

*Published: April 16, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-good-and-the-bad-of-new-calvinism*

This article is a summary from the following episode: [The Good and The Bad of New Calvinism.](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/the-good-and-the-bad-of-new-calvinism "The Good and The Bad of New Calvinism")

If you’ve been around the church world for any length of time, you’ve probably heard the term “New Calvinism” or “the Young, Restless, and Reformed.” This movement gained a lot of traction in the American church, especially in the early 2000s. It was fresh, exciting, and for many of us, it was a breath of gospel-scented air in what felt like a spiritual desert.

But like anything that grows fast and wide, there were real strengths—and real weaknesses.

Today, we want to step back, reflect, and have an honest conversation about the good and the bad of New Calvinism. What was worth celebrating? And what should we be cautious about?

## The Good of New Calvinism

### A Recovery of Sovereign Grace

One of the most significant gifts of New Calvinism was the recovery of the doctrines of grace. In a church culture that often felt man-centered, the emphasis on God's sovereignty in salvation was like a thunderclap. We remembered that salvation is of the Lord from start to finish—that we are dead in our sins and need to be made alive by God’s sovereign hand.

It reminded us that we are saved not because of our own effort, but because God chose to set His love upon us before the foundation of the world.

### A Renewed Interest in Old Theology

New Calvinism sent many of us back to the old paths. Suddenly people were dusting off the writings of men like John Owen, Thomas Watson, and Jonathan Edwards. Banner of Truth books were flying off shelves. Seminaries and publishers realized there was a hunger for deep, historic theology again.

And that has had a lasting impact. Today, more believers are reading the Puritans, studying the Reformers, and even exploring the ancient creeds and confessions of the church because of the trail New Calvinism blazed.

### A Call to Serious Preaching

There was also a noticeable push back toward expository preaching. After decades of topical, moralistic, and seeker-sensitive sermons, many pastors returned to preaching through books of the Bible—chapter by chapter, verse by verse. That shift alone has borne tremendous fruit in the life of the church.

Serious-minded preaching meant a serious-minded view of God, His Word, and the Christian life. That was needed.

### A Greater Concern for Ecclesiology and Mission

New Calvinism also helped many rediscover a healthier doctrine of the church. Conversations about elder plurality, church membership, and biblically faithful missions gained momentum. Instead of merely focusing on attractional strategies, many leaders began asking deeper questions about what it means to actually be the church.

All of that was—and still is—a good thing.

## The Bad of New Calvinism

But it wasn’t all roses. As thankful as we are for what New Calvinism recovered, there were significant weaknesses too.

### Calvinism without Covenant Theology

New Calvinism largely recovered Calvinistic soteriology (doctrine of salvation)—but without the broader framework of covenant theology. Without an understanding of how God relates to His people through covenant, many were left trying to piece things together with only a few puzzle pieces in hand.

This created a serious imbalance. People knew God was sovereign, but often didn't know how to make sense of the Christian life, assurance, or sanctification in a covenantal, Christ-centered way.

### A Pietistic and Revivalistic Bent

New Calvinism carried with it a strong pietistic and revivalistic streak. There was an overemphasis on personal experience, internal fervor, and subjective measures of sincerity.

Instead of grounding assurance in Christ’s finished work, many began looking inward for signs of true faith. Sanctification became something we anxiously tried to perform, rather than something God promises to work in us through ordinary means of grace.

It often left people tired, discouraged, and spiritually anxious—constantly wondering if they were “really” saved or “serious enough.”

### A Biblicism That Rejected Historic Confessionalism

Another issue was biblicism—the allergy to creeds, confessions, and historical theology. Many new Calvinists prided themselves on “just believing the Bible,” but this often led to a flattening of Scripture and ignoring how Christians have faithfully understood the Bible for centuries.

The result? Confusion over key doctrines like sanctification, law and gospel, assurance, the sacraments, and the Christian life as a whole.

Instead of standing on the shoulders of the Reformers, many were trying to reinvent the wheel—and it showed.

### An Overemphasis on Human Effort in Sanctification

Perhaps one of the clearest dangers was how sanctification was often framed. Many taught that while God saves us by grace, we stay in His good graces—or prove our salvation—through our ongoing performance.

This shifted the Christian life back into a subtle form of works-based righteousness. Instead of resting in Christ’s finished work, many believers lived in a cycle of self-assessment, striving, and discouragement.

In short, the movement rescued us from shallow theology, but often left us adrift in practical pietism.

## Where Do We Go From Here?

Here’s the good news: God has used New Calvinism for much good. Many of us are Christians today because of the ministry of those who labored in that movement. For that, we are grateful.

At the same time, we don’t have to stay stuck in its weaknesses. We can press deeper into a fuller, richer understanding of what it means to be truly Reformed—covenantal, confessional, and Christ-centered.

We don’t need to reinvent Christianity. We need to return to the ordinary, beautiful, powerful means God has given us: Word, sacrament, prayer, and the gathered church.

We need Christ—not just at the beginning of the Christian life, but for all of it.

## Final Thought

We’re thankful for New Calvinism. It woke many of us up. But we need more than just Calvinistic slogans and serious conferences. We need the ordinary, steady, joy-giving reality of Jesus Christ crucified and risen—for sinners like us—week after week, year after year, until we see Him face to face.

All of Christ, for all of life.

---

### Christ's Victory Over the Principalities and Powers Part 3

*Published: April 13, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/christs-victory-over-the-principalities-and-powers-part-3*

This article is a summary from the following sermon: [Christ’s Victory Over the Principalities and Powers Part 3](https://www.youtube.com/live/PB5Se1Jirac?si=kRO88jvNQdDIWnQK) by Jon Moffitt

We’ve been spending these weeks together peeling back the layers of the gospel story—looking deeper than we often do at the cross and resurrection of Jesus. And the more we peel back, the better the news gets.

Christ didn't just die to forgive you. He died to break the power of evil that had enslaved you.

He died to crush Satan and the kingdom of darkness that holds so much of this world captive.

The Apostle Paul gives us our anchor point in Colossians 2:

> “And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by cancelling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.” (Colossians 2:13–15)

It’s not an exaggeration to say that the resurrection of Jesus Christ changes everything—not just for us individually, but for the entire cosmos.

## The Lie That Won't Die

From the beginning, Satan’s primary weapon against humanity hasn’t been brute force. It’s been lies.

Jesus said he was a liar from the beginning. In Genesis 3, Satan doesn't overpower Eve; he deceives her. He gets her to doubt God's word, doubt God’s heart, and believe that there’s a better way than trusting her Creator.

Satan’s tactics haven’t changed. He just got better at disguising them.

Paul warns us that Satan can appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). That means the evil one doesn’t always come dressed in red with a pitchfork. Sometimes he comes through people who sound good, smell good, and smile a lot—but their words subtly turn us away from Jesus.

That's why the apostles and prophets—again and again—command us: _Test the spirits._ _Test the messengers._ Not everything that glitters is gold.

And the only way to know the difference is by knowing the truth.

## Job, David, and Israel: Targeted by the Enemy

The Bible shows us repeatedly that Satan and the powers of darkness are active in human history—not just tempting individuals, but moving through cultures, nations, and empires.

In Job, we see Satan using both human attackers and natural disasters to try and destroy Job’s faith (Job 1).

In David’s life, we see Satan tempting David with pride and self-reliance, leading him to sin against God by numbering the people (1 Chronicles 21:1).

In Israel’s history, we see the gods of the nations luring God's people into idolatry—offering them promises of power, prosperity, pleasure, and safety in exchange for their worship.

And the tactics haven’t changed.

Today, we are still being tempted with the same old lies:

* Trust in power instead of God.
* Find your satisfaction in sexuality and sensuality.
* Sacrifice whatever you have to for your own success and happiness.
* Redefine good and evil based on what feels right.

## Cultural Pressure and the Deception of the Flesh

One of Satan’s greatest tools is cultural pressure.

Israel looked around at the nations and said, “We want a king like them” (1 Samuel 8). They wanted to be normal. They didn’t want to be weird or different. They wanted to fit in.

We feel the same pull today.

We are being discipled by our culture—whether we realize it or not—through media, music, education, entertainment. And the pressure is subtle: Don’t be different. Don’t make people uncomfortable. Go along with the flow. Embrace the values of the world around you.

But the values of the world are being shaped by the powers of darkness. And the flow of the world is always away from God, not toward Him.

As Paul says in Ephesians 2, before we were saved, we were “following the prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2). We were dead and enslaved without even knowing it.

The world is still enslaved. The culture around us isn’t just "neutral"—it’s being influenced by real spiritual forces.

And if we’re not anchored to Christ, we will drift.

## False Teachers: Twisting the Gospel

Another tactic Satan uses is false teachers.

Not all false teachers are obvious. They often sound really good. They quote Bible verses. They talk about love and hope. But they twist the message—subtly, cleverly.

Deuteronomy 13 warned Israel: even if someone performs signs and wonders, if their message leads you away from the true God, don’t listen to them.

The New Testament repeats this warning over and over. Paul says even if an angel from heaven preaches a different gospel, “let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8).

John says to test every spirit, because many false prophets have gone out into the world (1 John 4:1).

False teachers will always downplay the sufficiency of Christ. They’ll always downplay the seriousness of sin. They’ll always twist the gospel into something it’s not—either into legalism ("do more, try harder") or into license ("do whatever you want, God doesn't care").

And behind them—whether they know it or not—stands the kingdom of darkness, working to keep people enslaved.

## Satan’s Goal: Silence the Church or Change the Message

Satan knows his time is short. Revelation 12 tells us he’s full of wrath because he knows his end is coming.

So what does he do?

If he can't destroy the church, he'll distract it. If he can't stop the messengers, he'll change the message.

He wants churches full of people who show up, sing songs, hear TED Talks with Bible verses sprinkled in, and never once hear the actual gospel.

He wants the message watered down, confused, or corrupted.

Because as long as the gospel is hidden, the captives stay captive.

## Christ Has Already Won

But here’s the good news: **Jesus has already disarmed the rulers and authorities.**

The power they had—the record of debt against us—has been nailed to the cross. The blood of Christ covers it all. It’s no longer a weapon in their hands.

When Satan accuses us, we can point to the cross.

When shame overwhelms us, we can point to the cross.

When fear rises up, we can point to the cross.

Christ has put the powers of darkness to open shame. He has triumphed over them. He has secured our freedom.

And now, we walk by faith, not by fear. We walk in His victory, not ours.

We proclaim His gospel, knowing that every time a sinner is saved, another soul is pulled from the grip of darkness into the glorious kingdom of the Son.

## Keep Your Eyes on Jesus

Brothers and sisters, the world is dark. The lies are thick. The temptations are real. But our hope isn’t in our ability to stay strong. It’s not in our ability to sniff out every false teacher or resist every temptation.

Our hope is in Christ.

We cling to Him. We rest in Him. We preach Him.

Because He is alive. He has conquered. He will come again.

And when He does, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess, and every ruler, every power, every principality will be thrown down once and for all.

Until then, we walk by faith. We love one another. We hold fast to the gospel.

And we remember: **The victory is already won.**

---

### The Danger of God's Glory without the Gospel

*Published: April 9, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-danger-of-gods-glory-without-the-gospel*

This article is a summary from the following episode: [The Danger of God's Glory without the Gospel](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/the-danger-of-god-s-glory-without-the-gospel "The Danger of God's Glory without the Gospel")

If we asked you, "What is the glory of God?"—how would you answer?

There’s a lot of talk about God's glory in the church today, especially among serious-minded evangelicals. And that’s a good thing. God's glory is real. It’s wonderful. It’s something we absolutely should care about.

But here's the problem: if we talk about God's glory without talking about the gospel—without talking about His mercy, His grace, His heart for sinners—we can actually end up misrepresenting Him. We can paint a picture of God that's cold, distant, and terrifying, rather than the God who delights in saving us.

We want to talk about the danger of separating God's glory from the good news—and why the Bible never does.

## God's Glory Is Tied to Redemption

Yes, God is passionate about His own glory. The Scriptures are clear about that. He will be glorified in all the earth. He will be glorified in judgment. He will be glorified in creation. No one is arguing otherwise.

But the primary way God reveals His glory—the primary way He invites us to see and savor it—is through redemption. Through the cross. Through the person and work of Jesus Christ.

From the beginning of the Bible to the end, God's glory is most clearly seen in His grace toward sinners.

The story of Scripture isn't mainly about God flexing His power for its own sake. It’s about God pursuing His people, binding His heart to them, redeeming them at infinite cost to Himself—and delighting in it.

When we talk about God's glory, we can’t skip the gospel. Otherwise, we leave people thinking that God is primarily about Himself, and we’re just footnotes in His story. That's not how the Bible talks.

## God’s Heart Is for His People

There’s a way of talking about God's glory that, even unintentionally, can make Him sound cold and robotic. As if He saved us simply because it was necessary for His plan, not because He loves us.

But Scripture tells a different story.

God didn’t save us because He had to in order to get more glory. He saved us because He loves us. He delights in us. He rejoices over us.

_“The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.”_ (Zephaniah 3:17)

Jesus didn’t go to the cross because the Father forced Him to. He set His face like flint toward Jerusalem out of love for us. For the joy set before Him—the joy of redeeming His people—He endured the cross (Hebrews 12:2).

God’s glory and our good are not in competition. In fact, they’re beautifully bound together. God is most glorified when He saves sinners and brings them home.

## God Isn't Ashamed of Us

If we're not careful, all our talk about God's sovereignty and glory can leave people feeling like they’re barely tolerated by God. As if He’s primarily concerned about His reputation, and we’re just along for the ride.

But the Bible paints a different picture.

God is not ashamed of His people. Jesus is not ashamed to call us His brothers and sisters (Hebrews 2:11). The Father loves us with the same love He has for His Son (John 17:23).

When we fail, we don’t have to hide. We don’t have to wonder if God is done with us. We run to Him, not from Him—because we know He cares for us (1 Peter 5:7).

The cross doesn’t just prove God's justice. It proves His love.

## Preach the Gospel, Not Just Glory

We need to talk about the glory of God. Absolutely. But let's talk about it the way the Bible does.

Let’s show people God's glory **in the face of Jesus Christ** (2 Corinthians 4:6). Let’s hold up a Savior who bore our shame, carried our griefs, conquered our sin, and welcomes us with open arms.

The glory of God is not an abstract concept. It’s personal. It has a name and a face: Jesus.

And when we see Him—bleeding, dying, rising, reigning—we see the heart of God. We see a glory that stuns us, humbles us, and draws us in.

## Rest in the God Who Loves You

Christian, your God is not cold toward you. He is not merely using you for His plans. He has set His love on you from all eternity. He rejoices over you with singing. He is preparing a place for you. He delights to call you His own.

God’s glory isn’t against your good. His glory **is your good**.

So rest. Rejoice. And behold the glory of God—in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

---

### Christ’s Victory Over the Principalities and Powers Part 2

*Published: April 6, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/christ-s-victory-over-the-principalities-and-powers-part-2*

This article is a summary from the following sermon: [Christ’s Victory Over the Principalities and Powers Part 2](https://www.youtube.com/live/ks-XEwdPgU4?si=sHE7gEDIPYtpcGbL) by Jon Moffitt

Most of us know the story: Jesus came to save sinners like you and me. Praise God—that’s gloriously true! But there’s more to the story, more to the battle, and more to Christ’s triumph than we often realize.

Jesus didn’t just rescue us from personal guilt. He didn’t just save us from ourselves. He came to crush the powers that had enslaved the world. He came to liberate His people from the rule of unseen rulers, authorities, principalities, and powers—the dark domain that holds the nations captive.

When Paul says Christ has "disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame" (Colossians 2:15), he’s not speaking in metaphor. He’s describing a real cosmic war that Jesus entered—and won.

## A Red Rover Rescue Mission

Let’s picture it the way we explained it to the kids this week.

Imagine two teams locked together, arms tight, daring the other side to break through. The enemy's goal is to tear through our line, to pull people away, to destroy the unity of the body of Christ. But how does he do it? Not usually with brute force. No, he uses lies. Twisted truths. Good things abused and corrupted.

Satan and his forces don't often come through the front door. They sneak in through distraction, division, shame, fear, and false teaching. They take food, sports, success—good gifts—and turn them into idols that divide us. They twist the very gospel that unites us.

That’s why Paul says we must be alert. We must know our enemy. We must know how the enemy attacks—and even more, we must know the One who has already won.

## Where Did the Enemy Come From?

A lot of Christians don't even know how the Bible describes the enemy. We've been discipled more by materialism and rationalism than by Scripture. If we can't see it or touch it, we assume it isn't real.

But the Bible tells a different story.

Genesis 10 and 11 give us the backdrop. After the flood, humanity gathered together at Babel—not to worship God, but to tap back into the power of heaven. They built a ziggurat, hoping to call down the spiritual beings for their own gain, just like the rebellion before the flood.

In response, God confused their language and divided the nations. Deuteronomy 32 tells us something remarkable: when God divided humanity, He assigned spiritual beings—called “sons of God”—to oversee the nations. But He kept one nation for Himself: Israel.

> “When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. But the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.” (Deuteronomy 32:8–9)

The nations were handed over to spiritual rulers, and their job was to shepherd and govern people toward righteousness.

But they didn’t.

Psalm 82 tells us these sons of God rebelled. Instead of governing justly, they ruled corruptly. They led people into darkness. They accepted worship for themselves instead of pointing people to Yahweh.

So God judged them: "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die" (Psalm 82:6–7).

These rulers—these fallen beings—became the principalities and powers that Paul warns us about. They are the gods behind the nations. They are real, and they are hostile.

## The Nations Turned to Other Gods

Throughout the Old Testament, Israel constantly battles against these false gods—Baal, Molech, Chemosh, and others. These aren't just statues or human-invented myths. They are real spiritual powers.

When Israel yoked themselves to these gods through sacrifices and idolatry, they weren’t just making cultural mistakes—they were committing spiritual adultery. They were handing themselves over to demonic rulers.

And the power these rulers had was terrifying. They promised prosperity, protection, fertility—but at horrific costs, like the sacrifice of children to Molech.

This is why God’s first commandment is so severe: "You shall have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3). He wasn’t just warning against bad ideas—He was warning against very real, very powerful beings who sought to enslave and destroy.

## Christ’s Rescue Operation

Into this dark and twisted world comes Jesus.

When Paul says that Jesus transferred us out of the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son (Colossians 1:13), he means it literally.

We weren’t just lost. We weren’t just confused. We were held captive. We were enslaved to rulers who hated us and hated our God. And Jesus came to storm their kingdom, tear open their gates, and set the captives free.

And how did He do it?

He paid our ransom.

> “Knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers… with the precious blood of Christ.” (1 Peter 1:18–19)

There was a legal demand against us. The rulers of this world held up the record of our sin and said, "You can't have them, God! They belong to us!"

So Jesus satisfied the demand. He didn't bribe them. He didn't negotiate. He didn't compromise. He shed His blood and purchased us forever.

And when He rose from the grave, He put the rulers and authorities to open shame. They thought they had won. They thought they had snuffed out the Messiah. Instead, the cross became their public humiliation. Their grip was broken. Their power shattered.

## The Gospel Marches Forward

But the battle isn’t over yet.

The rulers and authorities, though defeated, are still fighting a desperate, doomed rebellion. They know their time is short, and they are determined to inflict as much damage as they can.

They don't want the gospel to spread. They don't want people rescued. They want to keep the nations enslaved.

That’s why Jesus commissions His church:

> "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations…" (Matthew 28:18–19)

Notice: _all authority in heaven and on earth_. Jesus didn’t just win back people—He reclaimed the nations.

And He sends us—weak, small, ordinary people—to advance His kingdom.

The powers of darkness tremble when the gospel is proclaimed. They shudder when captives are set free. They lose their grip every time a sinner repents and trusts in Christ.

## Stand Firm, Church

We aren’t fighting flesh and blood. We aren’t just battling bad ideas or political ideologies.

We are in a cosmic war against real, defeated, but still dangerous enemies.

Paul tells us in Ephesians 6:

> “Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.” (Ephesians 6:11)

We fight by standing in Christ. We fight by clinging to the gospel. We fight by proclaiming the good news that the King has already won.

Friend, you are free. You have been ransomed. You are no longer under the domain of darkness. Christ is your King, and His kingdom cannot be shaken.

The rulers and powers of this world will rage. They will lie. They will tempt and accuse.

But they cannot undo what Jesus has done.

They cannot steal you from His hand.

They cannot silence His gospel.

And one day, they will be finally, fully destroyed when our King returns.

Until then, we stand firm. We proclaim Christ. We rejoice that our names are written in heaven.

Because our King reigns—and His victory is ours.

---

### Let's Talk About Idolatry

*Published: April 2, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/lets-talk-about-idolatry-1*

This article is a summary from the following episode: [Let's Talk About Idolatry.](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/let-s-talk-about-idolatry "Let's Talk About Idolatry")

When we were growing up in the church, we used to chuckle at the Israelites. Here they were, carrying around little statues in the desert—as if a chunk of wood or stone could do anything—while God Himself was splitting seas and raining down bread from heaven.

It seemed ridiculous.

But the older we get, and the more honest we are, the more we realize something: idolatry hasn’t gone away. It’s not just some Old Testament relic. It’s alive and well today. And it’s just as dangerous now as it was then.

We need a clearer understanding of what idolatry really is—and why it still matters for us.

## Not Just Good Luck Charms

When we think of idolatry today, we usually imagine something primitive—superstitious people bowing to statues or wearing charms for luck. And while the Bible does mock that kind of thing at times (and rightly so), there’s far more going on.

Idolatry in the Bible isn’t just about dumb objects. It's about **worship**. It's about hearts and minds being pulled away from the living God and given over to something else—something dark.

And here's the kicker: behind those idols, there’s real spiritual power.

The Bible is clear: when people worship idols, they are fellowshipping with demons (1 Corinthians 10:20–21). There’s a dark, unseen reality working to pull people away from God’s truth and into bondage. And it doesn’t always look obvious. Sometimes, it looks religious. Sometimes, it looks noble. But it’s deadly.

## Idolatry Isn’t Just a Heart Problem

Today, especially in the West, we mostly talk about "idols of the heart." Things like sports, family, career, success—good things that we can turn into ultimate things.

That’s real. We don’t deny it. Our hearts are indeed idol factories, as Calvin said. We are constantly tempted to trust in created things rather than the Creator. And yes, football can become an idol. So can food. So can a career. So can a relationship.

But when the Bible talks about idolatry, especially in the Old Testament, it goes deeper than that. It's not just about misplaced priorities. It's about false worship. It’s about allegiance to spiritual powers that oppose God.

It’s about trusting in something other than the Lord to save us, define us, and satisfy us.

And that kind of idolatry is still happening all around us—often in ways we don’t even recognize.

## Idolatry Is Alive and Well

We see it in our culture's obsession with self. We see it in the way we celebrate autonomy, redefine morality, and sacrifice truth for comfort and acceptance.

Think about it: the Old Testament prophets railed against child sacrifice to Molech. Today, we see millions of lives ended before they ever begin—because children are viewed as obstacles to personal freedom. It's the same demonic logic dressed up in modern clothes.

The powers behind the idols haven’t changed. They’ve just evolved their tactics.

Where the Old Testament had temples and shrines, we have entertainment empires, social movements, and political ideologies. But the goal is the same: pull people away from God. Get them to worship created things rather than the Creator.

And sadly, even Christians can get swept up in it if we’re not watchful.

## The Gospel Tears Down Idols

Here's the good news: Jesus came to tear all of this down.

He came to rescue us from the domain of darkness and transfer us into His kingdom of light (Colossians 1:13). He didn’t just come to give us better habits—He came to set captives free.

We don't fight idolatry by simply trying harder. We fight by clinging to Christ. By proclaiming the gospel to ourselves and to one another. By remembering that our standing before God isn’t based on what we do or how strong we are—it’s based entirely on Jesus’ finished work.

We resist the pull of false worship by being constantly drawn back to the beauty and sufficiency of Christ. We fix our eyes on Him, the author and finisher of our faith.

And we remember: the devil may roar, but he's a defeated lion. Christ has already crushed his head.

## Keep Looking to Jesus

So let's be clear: idolatry isn’t just about ancient statues or misplaced affections. It's about who (or what) we trust, worship, and give our lives to.

And the only one worthy of that trust—the only one who can truly save—is Jesus.

Let’s keep pointing each other to Him. Let's keep hearing the gospel. Let's keep resting in Christ.

Because the only thing powerful enough to tear down the strongholds of idolatry is the power of God—the gospel of Jesus Christ.

---

### Christ’s Victory Over the Principalities and Powers Part 1

*Published: March 30, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/christ-s-victory-over-the-principalities-and-powers-part-1*

This article is a summary from the following sermon: [Christ’s Victory Over the Principalities and Powers Part 1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY5YY-hj9aU&list=PL1Va3nlqav0WnSw-GqrJ6cz-1Y9jxU3ox&index=5) by Jon Moffitt

When we think about why Jesus came, most of us immediately go to forgiveness. “He came to die for my sins.” And that’s gloriously true. But if we stop there, we are missing a massive part of the good news.

The cross and resurrection didn’t just deal with your personal guilt. They crushed the powers that had enslaved you. Jesus didn’t just punch your ticket to heaven; He disarmed your enemies and publicly shamed them.

The Apostle Paul pulls the veil back for us in Colossians 2:

> “And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by cancelling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.” (Colossians 2:13–15)

If we don’t understand the battle Jesus entered into, we’re not going to grasp the fullness of what He accomplished. There’s more happening here than a private, internal experience with God. We are part of a cosmic drama, a war that rages in the heavens and spills into the earth.

And Christ has already won.

## A Real Enemy, A Real War

One of the more sobering realities is this: 26 out of the 27 books of the New Testament mention the presence and activity of Satan, demons, and the spiritual realm. That’s not just a little warning—that’s a floodlight on a real threat.

The Bible speaks about these rulers and authorities, often called “watchers” or “principalities and powers.” These beings were created good. They were tasked with governing and protecting the earth. But like humanity, they rebelled. They didn’t want to serve under God; they wanted to be God. They lusted for power and praise.

And when they fell, they turned from guardians into tyrants.

Rather than pointing humanity to our Creator, they turned our worship inward—or toward themselves. Their goal has always been the same: enslave the hearts and minds of people, keep them away from the living God, and drag them into destruction.

And they are still at it.

## Their Weapon of Choice: The Law

What’s shocking—and honestly brilliant in a horrifying way—is the primary weapon they use against us.

It’s not violence. It’s not even gross immorality.

It’s the law.

The very good, holy, righteous law of God is twisted into a weapon to accuse, manipulate, and subvert.

They hold up the record of debt against us—all the ways we have broken God’s commands—and they scream into our hearts, “Look at you. Look how filthy you are. How could God ever love you?”

And here’s the worst part: if left to ourselves, they’re right.

We are guilty. We have a real debt.

But the gospel explodes into that dark courtroom and declares that Jesus has taken our entire record—every failure, every sin, every unclean thought, every wrong word—and nailed it to the cross. Our debt has been cancelled. It’s not hanging over us anymore.

The accuser holds up an empty file.

Jesus disarmed them. He stripped them of their greatest weapon.

## The Church Under Attack

We don’t often feel this in the West because things seem relatively peaceful. We aren’t waking up to literal demonic manifestations. We’re distracted by grocery prices and gas prices and career stress. It’s easy to forget that there’s an unseen war raging around us.

But when you read the New Testament closely, you see it everywhere. Paul, Peter, John—they all warn the church repeatedly: the enemy is real, and the church is his target.

And the way he attacks us is subtle. It's slow. It's systemic.

It's through guilt, shame, fear, distraction, and false teaching.

It’s through the misuse of God’s law.

## Accusation: Crushing the Conscience

The first tactic the enemy uses is accusation.

He takes God's good law and uses it to beat you down. He whispers: “Look at your life. Look at your sin. There's no way God could love you.”

And the tragedy is that many Christians stay trapped there. Every Sunday feels like a funeral. Every prayer feels like a burden. They know they’re sinners, but they never feel free.

But here’s the good news: **Jesus didn’t just forgive your sins; He silenced your accuser.** He didn’t just sweep your guilt under the rug. He took the full wrath of God against your sin and satisfied it forever.

You don't need to defend yourself anymore. Christ is your defense. The blood of the Lamb answers every accusation.

When Satan stands before the throne and says, “That one right there deserves death,” the Father looks at the Son and says, “Paid in full.”

## Manipulation: Twisting the Gospel

The second tactic is manipulation.

The enemy doesn’t always come at you directly. Sometimes he just shifts the gospel a few degrees.

He says, "Yeah, you're saved by faith... but if you really want to stay saved, or if you really want God’s blessing, you better get serious about obedience."

So many churches—often unintentionally—start preaching this. They trade the finished work of Christ for a to-do list. They start measuring maturity by how disciplined you are, how radical you are, how sacrificial you are.

And it sounds so right. It sounds so good. Because we do want to grow. We do want to obey.

But when the fuel for Christian living becomes law instead of grace, the engine always burns out.

Paul rebukes this kind of thinking hard in Galatians 3:

> “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:1, 3)

When we fall into this trap, we’re doing the enemy’s work for him. We are living like slaves, not sons.

Jesus didn’t just rescue you from your guilt. He rescued you from a life of trying to earn your place at the table. You’re already seated with Him in the heavenly places.

## Subversion: Redefining Freedom

The third tactic is subversion.

The enemy wants to redefine freedom. He wants to convince us that true freedom means throwing off God’s law altogether.

“Follow your heart,” he says. “Love is love. Your truth is what matters.”

He twists the idea of grace into lawlessness.

Peter and Paul warned about this constantly. There were false teachers in the early church saying, "Since we’re forgiven, we can live however we want!" They encouraged sensuality, selfishness, and rebellion—and called it freedom.

But it’s not freedom. It's just a different kind of slavery.

Real freedom isn’t the absence of restraint. Real freedom is belonging to Christ, being ruled by His good and gracious Word, and walking in the light.

Subversion looks attractive because it promises immediate pleasure and acceptance. But it leads to ruin every time.

The loving thing to do is not to affirm people in their chains. The loving thing is to tell them that Christ can set them free.

## The Hope of the Resurrection

This is why the resurrection of Jesus is such a big deal.

If all Christ did was die, we might still wonder if the powers had won. But when He rose, He declared victory.

He is alive. He reigns now. And one day, He will come back to finish what He started.

Paul reminds us in 1 Corinthians 15:

> “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.” (1 Corinthians 15:22–24)

One day, every corrupt power will fall. Every lying spirit will be silenced. Every enemy of your soul will be crushed under the feet of King Jesus.

Until then, we live by faith, not by sight.

We trust that the battle has been won, even while the war rages around us.

We hold fast to Christ, knowing that He holds fast to us.

And when the accusations come, when the lies creep in, when the world tells you to find freedom in your own way—remember:

**Christ has already triumphed. You are already free.**

---

### How Could Lot Be Righteous?

*Published: March 26, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/how-could-lot-be-righteous-1*

This article is a summary from the following episode: [How Could Lot Be Righteous?](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/how-could-lot-be-righteous "How Could Lot Be Righteous?")

If you had to pick someone in the Bible to be called "righteous," would it be Lot? We wouldn’t have picked him either.

When we think about righteousness, we instinctively think about moral performance. Who did the right things? Who avoided the wrong things? In that kind of system, Lot wouldn’t stand a chance. His story is filled with compromise, failure, and some truly disturbing moments.

And yet Peter, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, calls Lot a **righteous man** (2 Peter 2:7–8). Not once, but multiple times.

So what’s going on? How could Lot be called righteous?

We need to rethink what righteousness before God really means.

## Not Righteous by Performance

When we hear words like “righteous” and “godly,” we usually think behavior. We think in terms of obedience. But the Bible consistently teaches that righteousness before God is **not** based on how well we perform. It’s based on **faith**.

Hebrews 11, that great “Hall of Faith” chapter, makes this crystal clear. Over and over, the writer points out that the saints of old—men like Noah, Abraham, Moses, and even Rahab—were commended **not** because they lived flawless lives, but because they trusted the promises of God.

Without faith, Hebrews says, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). Impossible. No amount of moral effort can bridge the gap. Only faith in the Redeemer can.

Lot was righteous, not because of what he did (or didn’t do), but because he trusted in the God who justifies the ungodly.

## Lot’s Story Isn’t Pretty

Lot’s life, frankly, is a mess. He chose to live near Sodom, knowing full well what kind of place it was. He had to be dragged out of the city when judgment came. He offered his daughters to an angry mob. Later, after escaping destruction, he got drunk and was involved in scandalous behavior with his own daughters.

And yet Peter says his “righteous soul” was tormented by the wickedness he saw around him (2 Peter 2:8). Lot grieved over sin. He hated the corruption of the world. And, most importantly, he clung to the promises of God, however weakly.

That’s faith. And faith is what God counts as righteousness.

## Righteousness Is by Faith, Not Achievement

This isn’t just true for Lot. It’s true for Noah. It’s true for Abraham. It’s true for David. It's true for you and me.

Romans 4:5 says, _"To the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."_

This is why Hebrews 11 isn’t just a celebration of heroes who conquered kingdoms—it’s also a celebration of sufferers, outcasts, and those who wandered in deserts and caves, clinging to promises they hadn’t yet received (Hebrews 11:32–40).

Their hope wasn’t in themselves. Their righteousness wasn’t in their resume. It was in the Messiah to come.

And ours is too.

## Why This Matters Today

In a culture that’s increasingly hostile to the truth, it’s easy for us to fall into self-righteousness. We see the debauchery around us, and like Lot, we’re rightly grieved. But if we’re not careful, we’ll start thinking that our standing before God is based on how well we resist the darkness.

It’s not.

Our standing with God is—and always has been—based on Christ. On His righteousness. On His obedience. On His life, death, and resurrection, counted to us by faith.

We don’t rescue ourselves. We don’t clean ourselves up. God rescues the godly—those who trust in His Son.

That’s the good news Peter wants his readers to cling to. And it’s the good news we need today.

## Keep Trusting the Promises

The call for us, just like it was for Lot, is to keep trusting. To hold fast to Christ in a world gone mad. To pursue virtue, yes—but not because we’re trying to earn anything. We pursue holiness because we already have everything in Jesus.

We live by faith. We die in faith. And we will be raised by the same.

**God rescues the godly. Always has. Always will.**

Not because of what we do, but because of who we trust.

---

### The Most Christian Thing We Do

*Published: March 19, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/the-most-christian-thing-we-do-5*

This article is a summary from the following episode: [The Most Christian Thing We Do](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/the-most-christian-thing-we-do "The Most Christian Thing We Do").

If we asked you, "What's the most Christian thing you could do?"—how would you answer?

A lot of us might say something like, “Well, not sinning.” And sure, a life of holiness is the fruit of being united to Christ. But we want to offer a different answer today—one that we think captures the heart of the Christian life:

**The most Christian thing we can do is to confess our weakness, admit our need, and throw ourselves into the arms of Jesus.**

That’s it. And when we live there—daily acknowledging our frailty and resting in Christ alone—it leads to real freedom, real joy, and yes, real transformation.

## Not Celebrating Sin, But Confessing It

Let’s be clear. We’re not celebrating sin itself. We’re not rejoicing in the fact that we’re messed up and broken. No Christian should. But we do celebrate the confession of our sin. We rejoice when we see ourselves clearly—that we are weak, dependent, and utterly in need of mercy.

Because it’s in confessing our weakness that we most fully cast ourselves on Christ. It's there—in that humble place—that we experience freedom, assurance, and real sanctification.

This is why, every Lord’s Day, we gather together, covered in the blood and righteousness of Jesus, and we confess. We confess our sins. We confess our need. And we hear, once again, that we are forgiven, that we are righteous in Christ, and that we are safe forever.

## Freedom Through Weakness

The irony of the Christian life is this: real strength looks like weakness. Real maturity looks like deeper dependence on Christ, not less.

We don’t “graduate” from grace. We don’t move past the gospel. As Paul says in 2 Corinthians 12, when he pleaded with the Lord to remove his thorn in the flesh, God responded, _"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."_ So Paul says, _"I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me."_

The Christian life isn’t onward and upward triumphalism. It’s growing more and more aware of our desperate need—and rejoicing more and more in Christ’s sufficiency.

## Sanctification Starts with Dependence

There’s a dangerous idea floating around that sanctification is mainly about sinning less. That’s not wrong entirely—obedience matters. But that’s not the heart of sanctification.

Sanctification is about trusting Christ more. It's about shifting the weight of our hope off ourselves and more onto Jesus. It's about growing in the humility that says, “I am weak. Christ is strong. I have nothing. Christ is everything.”

And yes, as we trust Him more, real change happens. But that change is the fruit of faith, not the foundation.

When we gather with the church, when we confess our sins to one another, when we pray for each other as James 5 commands—we are living out this truth. We are practicing the most Christian thing we can do: depending entirely on Christ.

## Christ in the Foreground

The problem in much of American evangelicalism isn’t that we talk too much about obedience. It’s that we talk about obedience without keeping Christ in the foreground.

We call people to godliness without reminding them that all of life flows from what Christ has already done. We burden people with the law without comforting them with the gospel. And when we do that, we turn the Christian life into drudgery and despair.

But when Jesus is central—when His life, death, and resurrection are the lens through which we view everything—we find freedom. Joy. Rest.

We learn to confess our sins without fear. We learn to walk in newness of life, not because we’re trying to earn something, but because we already have everything in Christ.

## Sitting in the Redeemer’s Hand

One of our favorite images comes from _The Hammer of God_—a novel that beautifully captures this gospel reality. It describes a Christian as a little bird sitting in the hand of his Redeemer, eating and singing songs in the sunshine.

That’s the Christian life. We are weak, but Christ is strong. We are needy, but Christ is sufficient. We deserve judgment, but we have been given mercy. And we live every day in the safety of His hands.

## The Most Christian Thing We Can Do

So what’s the most Christian thing we can do?

Confess that we are sinners. Admit that we are weak. Acknowledge that we have nothing to offer. And then, with empty hands, trust completely in Jesus Christ.

All of Christ for all of life. Always.

---

### Would Satan Approve of Your Morality?

*Published: March 12, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/would-satan-approve-of-your-morality*

This article is a summary from the following episode: [Would Satan Approve of Your Morality? ](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/would-satan-approve-of-your-morality "Would Satan Approve of Your Morality?")

Here’s a question that might sound strange at first: Is it possible that Satan would applaud the kind of preaching you hear on Sunday—or even the way you talk about the Christian life with your friends?

We believe the answer is yes. And that’s worth sitting with for a minute.

We tend to think Satan’s preferred sermons would be filled with moral chaos—denials of miracles, soft takes on sin, and worldly ideologies sneaking into the church. But what if one of his favorite kinds of preaching sounds a lot more… conservative? What if it upholds virtue, extols disciplined living, and calls people to clean up their lives—but it’s completely devoid of Jesus?

That’s the kind of religion Satan can work with. That’s the kind of Christianity that damns.

### The Sermons Hell Applauds

There is a kind of preaching that the enemy loves—sermons that major on morality but never mention the Mediator. Preaching that’s heavy on law but light on grace. Christless, cross-less messages that leave people with a to-do list instead of good news.

And here’s the thing: it’s often done in Jesus’ name. These sermons might be emotionally moving. They might be packed with biblical language. They might challenge you to be better, try harder, live cleaner, and do more.

But if they fail to point you to the finished work of Christ—if they fail to give you Jesus as your righteousness, Jesus as your hope, Jesus as your very life—they aren’t Christian sermons. They’re just well-dressed despair.

### When the Gospel Is Assumed, It’s Lost

The danger isn’t always false doctrine. Sometimes it’s just the absence of gospel clarity. A church can affirm all the right things in its statement of faith and still leave people starving, because the pulpit assumes the gospel instead of proclaiming it.

In our own tradition, we’ve seen how easily this can happen. After the Reformation, within just a couple of centuries, some pulpits were so overrun by moralism that the General Assembly in Scotland had to pass a law instructing pastors to actually preach the covenant of grace. Imagine that. They had to mandate gospel preaching in a Protestant church.

The temptation to drift from Christ-centered preaching to moral improvement talks is alive and well today.

### Obedience Isn’t the Problem—Obscuring Jesus Is

Let’s be clear: we care about obedience. We preach the third use of the law. We believe the Christian life is one of discipleship, holiness, and bearing fruit. But when those things are disconnected from Jesus—when they become ends in themselves rather than the overflow of union with Christ—they become dangerous.

Without the gospel, moral instruction becomes a tool for self-righteousness. It leads people to believe that their obedience earns them standing before God or status among others. Either way, it’s slavery.

And Satan doesn’t mind it at all.

He’d love nothing more than for churches to become factories of guilt and performance. He’d love for Christians to wake up each day with a burden on their back, wondering if they’ve done enough. He’d love for us to view God not as our Father who loves us, but as a disappointed judge with arms crossed.

### The Christian Life Is Lived in Christ

The antidote to all of this isn’t to stop talking about the law. It’s to keep the gospel front and center. Every call to obedience in Scripture is framed by the love and work of Christ. “Be imitators of God,” Paul writes, “as beloved children.” That’s the pattern. That’s the posture.

So when we talk about sanctification, faithfulness, parenting, marriage, or spiritual discipline, we do it with Jesus in full view. Because it’s only through Him—and because of Him—that we can live the life we’ve been called to.

### Pastors, Pay Attention to the Emphasis

If you’re a preacher, hear this: you don’t have to be a heretic to harm your people. If Christ isn’t clearly and regularly held out as the answer, the hope, and the source of strength for your congregation, you may be feeding them stones instead of bread.

Even church discipline—something many of us in Reformed circles rightly uphold—must be done in light of the gospel. When we call someone to repentance, we’re not pronouncing them lost. We’re calling them back to safety. We’re calling them back to Jesus.

### Don’t Assume—Proclaim

If someone professes Christ but struggles, our first move should be compassion, not suspicion. Maybe they’ve never been discipled. Maybe they’ve been beaten down by pietism or burned out by performance. Maybe they’ve never heard a gospel-centered sermon in their life.

Let’s not assume they’re false professors. Let’s give them Jesus. Let’s remind them of who they are in Him and call them to live in light of that.

### Resting in the One Who Loves Us

The devil wants us focused on ourselves—our progress, our failures, our discipline, our devotion. But the gospel calls us to fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith.

He’s the One who lived the narrow way. He’s the door we enter through. He’s the Savior who loves us, intercedes for us, and never lets us go.

Let’s not give the enemy anything to applaud. Let’s give our people Jesus.

---

### How Satan Uses the Law

*Published: March 5, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/how-satan-uses-the-law*

This article is a summary from the following episode: [How Satan Uses the Law. ](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/how-satan-uses-the-law "How Satan Uses the Law")  
  
If you’ve been following us for a while, you know we care deeply about encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ. And one of the things we keep coming back to—because Paul keeps coming back to it—is the danger of legalism. But here’s something we often miss in that conversation: legalism isn’t just a human problem. According to the Apostle Paul, it's also spiritual warfare.

That might sound intense. But we’re not overstating it—Paul himself says it. Legalism isn’t just a theological mistake. It’s a strategy used by the enemy to enslave God’s people and obscure the finished work of Jesus. When we add anything to Christ, Paul says we’re not just tinkering with doctrine—we’re falling under the influence of the kingdom of darkness.

Let’s explain.

### **The Law as a Weapon**

Paul uses strong language in Galatians 4 and Colossians 2\. He talks about “elemental spirits of the world,” “rulers,” and “authorities.” And in both letters, he draws a straight line between these powers and the misuse of the law.

In Colossians 2:14–15, he says that Jesus disarmed these rulers and authorities by canceling “the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands.” That’s law language. And what did Jesus do with that debt? He nailed it to the cross. That’s not just good news—it’s warfare. Christ publicly shamed the enemy by taking away their weapon: condemnation.

And yet, what does the kingdom of darkness do? They keep holding up the law as a tool to accuse, condemn, and enslave. And far too often, we as Christians—maybe unknowingly—join in.

### **Satan Loves Religion**

We often assume that Satan’s best work shows up in things like murder, exploitation, and moral chaos. But the Scriptures paint a more subtle—and more dangerous—picture. Paul, Peter, and John all warn us that Satan’s strategy is often to masquerade as an angel of light. And when it comes to twisting the truth, he doesn’t need to invent a new religion—he just needs to distort the gospel.

He did it in the garden. He did it when he tempted Jesus. And he’s still doing it today.

As we said in a recent conversation, Michael Horton nails it when he says that if Satan ran the world, it wouldn’t necessarily be a horror show. It might look religious, moral, even virtuous—but it would be void of Christ. That’s the real deception. That’s the kind of “faith” that damns.

Satan doesn’t mind if we believe in God. He minds if we trust in Christ alone. If he can convince us to believe in Jesus plus something—plus obedience, plus law-keeping, plus personal holiness—then he’s already got us wrapped in chains.

### **Paul Doesn’t Hold Back**

If this sounds dramatic, just go read Galatians again. Paul says, “Who has bewitched you?” (Galatians 3:1). That’s not a metaphor. He’s saying, “You’re under a spell. You’ve come under the influence of something dark.” And what caused it? They were adding law to the gospel.

That’s why Paul is so stark. In Galatians 5, he says that if we accept circumcision—if we add even one requirement of the law—then “Christ is of no advantage to you.” Not some advantage. No advantage. Because it’s either all of Christ or none of Him. There’s no middle ground. Legalism doesn’t help us get closer to God. It actually pulls us further away.

This is why we get so fired up. This isn’t just a theological nuance. This is the gospel. This is spiritual warfare.

### **Our Armor Is Christ**

So what do we do? We don’t fight the enemy with cleverness or charisma. We fight with clarity. We proclaim Christ crucified—again and again. We remind ourselves and each other that our standing with God is not based on our performance, but on Jesus’ finished work.

We stand in His righteousness. We wear His armor. We trust His promises. And we rest in His grace.

And when the accuser whispers, “You haven’t done enough,” we point to the cross and say, “It is finished.”

### **Don’t Be Fooled**

Friend, if your heart is being pulled away from Christ alone—even in subtle ways—you’re not just drifting. You’re stepping into enemy territory. When Paul warns us not to be “taken captive by philosophy and empty deceit” (Col. 2:8), he’s talking about teachings that sound religious, sound moral, sound wise—but are not of Christ.

Legalism is not harmless. It’s demonic. That’s not our opinion. That’s Paul’s.

We’re not saying the law is bad. Not at all. It’s beautiful and good when used rightly. It shows us our sin. It guides our lives in Christ. But it can’t save. It can’t justify. And it can’t sanctify. If we use it for those purposes, we’re back under bondage—and we’re playing right into the enemy’s hands.

### **Keep Clinging to Christ**

Let us say this as clearly as we can: We are secure because of Christ, not because of our obedience. We are justified because of His righteousness, not ours. And we are sanctified by His Spirit working through the gospel, not our performance or checklist.

We believe all of Christ is for all of life. Anything less is slavery.

So if someone tells you Jesus plus something else equals righteousness—whether it’s a leader, a book, a podcast, or even that voice in your own head—you can say with confidence, “That’s not from God. That’s from the kingdom of darkness.”

And then keep holding fast to Jesus. Keep resting. Keep hearing the gospel, week in and week out. Keep gathering with others who need it just as much as we do.

The devil may be a roaring lion, but he’s a defeated one. And Christ has already crushed his head.

---

### Struggling with Anxiety?

*Published: December 25, 2024 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/struggling-with-anxiety*

Jon Moffitt  

When we share our deepest fears and anxieties, it’s often because we trust that the person we confide in genuinely cares about our well-being. They have a sincere interest in our lives.

However, sharing isn’t always easy. Sometimes, we hesitate because we don’t want to burden the people we love. Other times, embarrassment holds us back. We might think, “Why can’t I let this go? What’s wrong with me? People must think I’m weak or crazy!” This feeling is all too familiar.

At its core, anxiety stems from a sense of helplessness—a belief that we can’t handle what lies ahead. This is completely understandable. We live in a spiritual warzone where Satan’s dark forces aim to keep us trapped in mental prisons. These prisons rob us of joy and hinder our ability to love and care for others. Paul refers to these as strongholds created by lies. While the lies of a child are easy to detect, the deceptions of “the god of this world,” practiced over millennia, are much harder to expose.

**Paul's Answer to Anxiety**

Paul lovingly reminds the church in Philippi that there is nothing in this world worth being anxious about. His solution? Bring your concerns to God. He says, “In everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God” (Phil. 4:6).

What worries you? What do you need? Paul doesn’t simply say, “Stop worrying!” Instead, he urges us to talk to our King—our loving Father, the one with limitless power. And what happens when we do this?

“And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Phil. 4:7).

This peace doesn’t make sense from the world’s perspective. But according to Paul, it’s real. Notice, Paul doesn’t promise that God will grant every request, but rather that He will give us peace, knowing that our concerns are now in His capable hands.

**Does God Care to Listen?**

One of Satan’s greatest lies is convincing us that God doesn’t care about our anxieties. But Scripture says otherwise. Satan seeks to destroy our trust in God, keeping us from the joy and freedom that come from surrendering our burdens.

Paul writes, “For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ” (2 Cor. 10:4–5).

When anxiety grips us, we may hesitate to approach our loving King. But Hebrews reminds us of Jesus’ heart:

“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin” (Heb. 4:15).

Jesus understands. He sympathizes. His posture toward us is one of compassion and acceptance. Peter echoes this sentiment: “Cast all your anxieties on Him, because He cares for you” (1 Pet. 5:7).

> "Because He Cares For You!"

To “cast” means to throw off. We’re invited to hurl our burdens onto Jesus, who eagerly waits to carry them.

**How Often Should We Come?**

Peter uses the present tense—“casting”—implying that this is an ongoing process. It’s not a one-time act. Hebrews 4:16 encourages us:

“Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”

As often as we need, we can approach God for mercy and grace. We ask for mercy because we’ve doubted His protection. We ask for grace to strengthen our faith in His promises.

**The Battle Against Anxiety**

Anxiety isn’t something we “get over.” We will continue to battle it until Christ’s return and the restoration of His perfect kingdom. But we are not alone. We can bring our worries to our King, who is eager to carry them. In exchange, He offers peace—sometimes for the day, sometimes just for the moment.

The more we practice casting our cares on Him, the less power anxiety will have over us. Struggles will remain, but they don’t have to imprison us or steal our hope and joy. Don’t complicate giving your King your anxiety. Just start telling him why you are struggling. Know he wants to hear from you, he cares, and he will provide peace when you trust him.

---

### Theonomy: A Reformed Baptist Response

*Published: September 10, 2023 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/theonomy-a-reformed-baptist-response*
*Tags: Theonomy*

Justin Perdue

9Marks Journal, Spring 2023

Theonomy Article  
  
**INTRODUCTION**  
  
**Theonomy: A Definition**  
  
Before engaging with theonomy, we need a good definition. At the level of etymology, the word “theonomy” simply means “God’s law,” coming from θεος, which means “God,” and νομος, which means “law.” In this article, however, we will be dealing with theonomy in a more technical and historical sense.  
  
Theonomy asserts that the judicial laws of the Mosaic covenant are normative for all geopolitical entities. Civil governments are obligated to enforce the old covenant judicial laws, together with their penalties, and any law not included in the old covenant judicial code should be considered out of bounds. Theonomy understands that God has given the universal blueprint for civil government in the Mosaic judicial law. As T. David Gordon wrote, “Theonomy wishes to see _every_ nation conform its civil practices to those revealed in the Mosaic legislation… Theonomy does not wish merely a return to a biblical ethic, or a Judeo-Christian ethic, but to the ethic of the Sinai covenant.”[](#%5Fftn1)  
  
Our definition squares with the writings of the earliest and most influential theonomists.[](#%5Fftn2) Others have offered similar definitions.[](#%5Fftn3) It is good for the reader to recognize that theonomy often comes packaged with Christian reconstructionism and a particular flavor of postmillennial eschatology. Theoretically, it is possible to isolate theonomy from these other two, but practically that doesn’t occur at street level.[](#%5Fftn4)  
  
**The Argument**  
  
_The argument of this article is that theonomy is incompatible with confessional Baptist theology._  
  
For those who may be unfamiliar, at least with the term “confessional Baptist,” allow me to offer some clarification. Confessional Baptists hail from the Reformed tradition and the Puritan stream of that tradition, in particular.[](#%5Fftn5) Confessional Baptists have: a theology, piety, and practice that is articulated by the Second London Baptist Confession (2LCF); a theology, piety, and practice that is grounded in the objective realities of Christ’s saving work in the place of the sinner, by virtue of the covenant of grace; a theology, piety, and practice that is grounded in the local church and realized through the ordinary means of grace.[](#%5Fftn6)  
  
For the purpose of this article, confessional Baptist doctrine defends against theonomy in at least three ways. First, confessional Baptist doctrine maintains a threefold division of the law, as well as the distinction between moral and positive law. Second, confessional Baptist covenant theology—particularly that of 1689 Federalism—affirms the historic covenantal framework of Scripture but upholds the uniqueness of the new covenant as the establishment of the covenant of grace. Third, a confessional perspective on the sufficiency of Scripture, two-kingdoms doctrine, the mission of the church, and the Christian as pilgrim runs counter to the assertions of theonomy.  
  
**Acknowledgement of Others**  
  
Before moving on to the body of this article, I want to make very clear that I have been greatly helped by the writing and teaching of others. Much of what follows is my own articulation and understanding of what numerous faithful men have taught; in everything that follows, I am sitting on their shoulders. Especially to be acknowledged, in no particular order: Samuel Renihan, Pascal Denault, Tom Hicks, David VanDrunen, R. Scott Clark, and D. G. Hart.  
  
**I. THREEFOLD DIVISION OF THE LAW AND THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN MORAL AND POSITIVE LAW**  
  
Confessional Baptist theology maintains a historical threefold division of the law, as well as the distinction between moral and positive law, neither of which square with theonomy. I am beginning here because confessional Protestants of various stripes agree on this subject matter, most notably Baptists and Presbyterians.  
  
**Threefold Division of the Law**  
  
Chapter nineteen of the 2LCF (on the Law of God) articulates the following:  
  
1\. God gave to Adam a Law of universal obedience, written in his Heart, and a particular precept of not eating the Fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him, and all his posterity to personal entire exact and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.  
  
2\. The same Law that was first written in the heart of man, continued to be a perfect rule of Righteousness after the fall; and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in Ten Commandments and written in two Tables; the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to man.  
  
3\. Besides this Law commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel Ceremonial Laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which Ceremonial Laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only Law-giver who was furnished with power from the Father, for that end, abrogated and taken away.  
  
4\. To them also he gave sundry judicial Laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only, being of moral use.  
  
The law of Moses can be divided into three categories: moral, ceremonial, and judicial.[](#%5Fftn7) The moral law was written into creation and in the heart of man. It is summarized in the Ten Commandments, which the Lord gave to Moses on two tablets of stone. As we will consider more below, the moral law is binding for all human beings at any time and in any place. The ceremonial law contained many typological ordinances, all of which prefigured Christ, along with various instructions of moral duties. The ceremonial laws were fulfilled and abrogated by Jesus. The judicial law was given specifically to the nation of Israel and expired when that nation-state, under the old covenant, ceased to exist. It is now the principles of general equity (i.e., general justice) in the judicial law that are of value.[](#%5Fftn8)  
  
Theonomists, however, advocate for a twofold division of the law: moral and ceremonial. Again, we look to Greg Bahnsen,[](#%5Fftn9) who writes:  
  
The most fundamental distinction to be drawn between Old Testament laws is between moral laws and ceremonial laws… This is not an arbitrary or ad hoc division, for it manifests an underlying rationale or principle. Moral laws reflect the absolute righteousness and judgment of God, guiding man’s life into the paths of righteousness; such laws define holiness and sin, restrain evil through punishment of infractions, and drive the sinner to Christ for salvation. On the other hand, ceremonial laws—or redemptive provisions—reflect the mercy of God in saving those who have violated His moral standards.[](#%5Fftn10)  
  
As others have noted, the conflation of the moral law and judicial law is a critical point to the exegetical arguments of theonomists. Bahnsen collapses the categories of moral and judicial law wholesale. “The moral law of God can…be seen in two subdivisions, the divisions having simply a literary difference: (1) general or summary precepts of morality…and (2) commands that specify the general precepts by way of illustrative application…”[](#%5Fftn11) Bahnsen is saying that the judicial law of Israel _is the moral law_, just illustratively applied. This is how he and other theonomists argue for the continually binding nature of the judicial law.  
  
**Moral Law and Positive Law**  
  
There is a distinction between moral law[](#%5Fftn12) and positive law—a distinction that helps us better understand the various kinds of laws in the Mosaic covenant and how they would or would not apply in the new covenant era.  
  
Moral law is necessitated by God’s immutable character and reflects it. Moral law is revealed in nature and in Scripture. It is written into creation and pointedly into the human race. People know God’s moral law innately because it is written on their consciences. This is Paul’s argument in his letter to the Romans:  
  
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse (Romans 1:18-20).  
  
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law… For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts… (Romans 2:12, 14-15a).  
  
Again, consider the language of 2LCF (chapter nineteen on the Law of God):  
  
2\. The same Law that was first written in the heart of man, continued to be a perfect rule of Righteousness after the fall; and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in Ten Commandments and written in two Tables; the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to man.  
  
5\. The moral Law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator; who gave it: Neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[](#%5Fftn13)  
  
Positive law is different from moral law. Positive law is _posited_ by decree or kingly fiat. It is more revelatory or governmental. It is also tethered to the covenant in which it is given. It is not inherently moral; it is God’s word attached to the positive law that makes it a moral issue. People would not know they should obey a positive law if not told (e.g., eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, circumcision, etc.). _Very important for our consideration is that Israel’s ceremonial and judicial laws were positive laws_. Israel would not have known its ceremonial or judicial laws if God had not revealed them.  
  
Samuel Renihan is very helpful here when he writes:  
  
Among the laws by which God governed Israel, there are two basic kinds. Israel was governed by moral laws and by positive laws… moral laws transcend transcription. They are known by nature, though suppressed by fallen nature. God delivered the moral law to Israel, summarized in the Ten Commandments. In addition to moral laws, God gave positive laws to Israel. Positive laws are added laws, additional laws. These laws are not morally right or wrong in and of themselves. Circumcision, how to build the tabernacle, which animals to sacrifice for which sins, and what foods you can or can’t eat are positive laws. They were added by God to Israel’s covenantal obligations. Every covenant has its own positive laws that govern the people of that covenant, like the trees in Eden. The Moral law and the positive laws of Israel governed the people. That was their function. Israel’s positive laws are often split up into two groups: the civil law, and the ceremonial law.[](#%5Fftn14)  
  
**Pulling All of This Together**  
  
God’s moral law abides. It existed at creation, before any unique era of redemptive history, before any covenant was made in time and space. And so, it transcends any one era of redemptive history or any one covenant made in time and space. It is summarized in the Ten Commandments. Its requirements are fulfilled by Christ in our place. It guides our living in Christ.  
  
The ceremonial law of the Mosaic covenant contained many typological ordinances, all of which prefigured Christ, along with various instructions of moral duties. The ceremonial law was fulfilled and abrogated by Christ.  
  
The judicial law of the Mosaic covenant ceased to be binding when the nation of Israel (under the old covenant) ceased to exist. On this point, it is very obvious that the structure of the kingdom of God on earth changed from the old covenant to the new covenant. The institutional form of the kingdom of God on earth in the old covenant was Israel; the institutional form of the kingdom of God on earth in the new covenant is the church. Israel was a geopolitical entity. The church is not in any sense a geopolitical entity. It certainly is not a nation-state. It spans the globe and is comprised of people from every tribe, language, people, and nation. This significant change provides a simple and straight-forward rationale for the expiration of the Mosaic judicial law.  
  
Regarding the judicial law, its principles of general equity are of abiding value. God’s moral law is the basis for many of the judicial laws in the Mosaic law. And so, we conclude that “general equity” means that what is contained in the moral law—more particularly, the second table of the law—is for the determination of general justice, broadly. We do _not_ go to a judicial law and ask, “What principle is contained here that we need to apply today?” This is exactly what theonomy says we should do.[](#%5Fftn15) Rather than doing this, we appeal _directly_ to the moral law.  
  
As opposed to matters of general equity, matters of _particular equity_ are those laws that only pertain to the people of Israel in the land of Canaan. There are many (e.g., division of land, provision of a kinsman redeemer, regulation of polygamy, particular rules of property and inheritance, requirement for the resting of fields, etc.). In the next section, we will consider how the judicial law given to Israel was unique to Israel’s situation and circumstances—and to the purposes of God through Israel. The judicial law has a positive, temporal element that is bound to a particular era of redemptive history; and there are judicial laws that are undergirded by moral laws. The key for us is to remember that it is the moral law that abides, not the specific judicial law given specially to Israel in a specific circumstance in a specific era of redemptive history.  
  
**II. COVENANT THEOLOGY (1689 FEDERALISM)**  
  
Confessional Baptist covenant theology (1689 Federalism)[](#%5Fftn16) is incompatible with theonomy.  
  
**An Overview of 1689 Federalism**  
  
Let me attempt to give the reader an overview of 1689 Federalism from 30,000 feet. We begin with the _covenant of redemption_ made in eternity past, amongst the persons of the Godhead, most pointedly between the Father and Son. In this covenant, it was determined that the Son would be the covenant head of an elect people. He would become a man to represent men. He would keep the law of nature (God’s moral law). He was tempted by Satan just as Adam was. But he did not fall. He would keep the Mosaic law to fulfill all righteousness (moral, ceremonial, and civil). He would give his life to fulfill the law’s penalty, to endure its curse. His reward for accomplishing this work would be his people, who would be resurrected to live with him forever in a new heaven and a new earth.  
  
We now move on to the two covenants made in time and space: the covenant of works and the covenant of grace. God made the _covenant of works_ with Adam in the garden of Eden. In this covenant, Adam represented the entire human race. He could earn blessedness and life through obedience, for himself and all of his posterity; he would receive death (spiritual, temporal, and eternal) through disobedience, again, for himself and all of his posterity. In the _covenant of grace_, Jesus freely grants the salvation and new creation inheritance he earned in the covenant of redemption to all who receive him by faith. All the merits of Christ are mediated to his elect people by faith, apart from works. The covenant of grace is first promised in Genesis 3:15, when God states that the seed of the woman would bruise the serpent’s head. The rest of the Bible is the unfolding of the accomplishment of that promise.  
  
God made a covenant with Noah after the flood. He promised he would sustain the common kingdom of the earth. All human beings were represented in Noah and would benefit from this covenant, believers and unbelievers alike.[](#%5Fftn17) Along with sustaining the creation, God would sustain its cultural activities, most pointedly, procreation and the securing of proportionate, retributive justice. It is important for us to see that, beyond his purposes for the common kingdom of the world, God would sustain the creation via the Noahic covenant so that the Savior could come—so that God the Son could take on flesh and enter the creation as a human being in order to accomplish salvation.  
  
Now, back to the _covenant of grace_. It is _promised_ in Genesis 3:15\. It is _revealed by farther steps_ throughout the Old Testament, in and through covenants that are subservient to it (i.e., the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant, and the Davidic covenant). It is _established and accomplished_ through Christ in the _new covenant_.  
  
**Drilling Down on the Old Covenant**  
  
It is important for us to understand that the old covenant is composed of the covenants made with/through Abraham, Moses, and David.[](#%5Fftn18) In other words:  
  
Old Covenant = Abrahamic Covenant + Mosaic Covenant + Davidic Covenant  
  
In the old covenant, God was doing something uniquely in and through Israel. The culmination of this unique work of God was the coming of Christ and the establishment of the new covenant (covenant of grace). Jesus—and the new covenant in him—is the goal and aim of everything God did in and through Israel. It is in this sense that the old covenant must be understood typologically. The covenants with/through Abraham, Moses, and David were significant in and of themselves. They served a real purpose in their own era of redemptive history. And they pointed to something other and greater that was coming. This exposes a crucial error of theonomy: it misunderstands the biblical covenants. The judicial laws of the Mosaic covenant were uniquely fitted to the nation of Israel under the old covenant. Once the new covenant is established in Christ (the goal of the old covenant), it does not follow that uniquely situated old covenant categories (the judicial law, in this case) would be directly imported into the new covenant. This was not God’s design in establishing the old covenant, in general, nor in giving the Mosaic law, in particular.  
  
In the Abrahamic covenant, we see the beginnings of Israel. God promises Abraham a people and a land. Most pointedly, the Christ would be a descendant of Abraham, and he would come through this people in this land.  
  
Then there is the giving of the law through Moses. The Sinai covenant was a kind of covenant of works—a type of it. There is an echo of the covenant of works in the Mosaic covenant with its “Do this and live” paradigm.[](#%5Fftn19) It is clear that the law of Moses was given by God to govern, regulate, and guide the people of Israel, as well as to prescribe their worship. What is perhaps not as clear to many Christians is that God gave the Mosaic law with a redemptive purpose. After the fall, God did not give the law so that human beings could be justified by it. The first and greatest use of the law is to show human beings our sin and drive us to Christ who kept the law for us.[](#%5Fftn20)  
  
This brings us to the Davidic covenant. God promised David that he would have a son whose kingdom would be established forever. This son of David would be God’s son, and he would sit on his throne forever (2 Samuel 7:12-16). God then told David’s son, Solomon, that he and his offspring would represent the nation of Israel:  
  
And as for you, if you will walk before me, as David your father walked, with integrity of heart and uprightness, doing according to all that I have commanded you, and keeping my statutes and my rules, then I will establish your royal throne _over Israel_ forever, as I promised David your father, saying, ‘You shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.’ But if you turn aside form following me, you or your children, and do not keep my commandments and my statutes that I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them, then I will cut off _Israel_ from the land that I have given them, and the house that I have consecrated for my name I will cast out of my sight, and _Israel_ will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples (1 Kings 9:4-7).  
  
As goes the king, so goes the kingdom. The principle of representation (i.e., covenant headship) runs throughout the Scripture. Adam represented the human race in the covenant of works. The Davidic king represented the people under the old covenant. And Christ represents all of his people in the new covenant. This makes all kinds of sense of the witness of the prophets regarding the servant of the Lord and the righteous Branch that would be raised up for David:  
  
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all… by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous… (Isaiah 53:4-6, 11b).  
  
Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: “The Lord is our righteousness” (Jeremiah 23:5-6).  
  
Behold, the days are coming declares the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous branch to spring up for David, and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell securely. And this is the name by which it will be called: “The Lord is our righteousness.” For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings, and to make sacrifices forever (Jeremiah 33:14-18).  
  
Thank God for Jesus Christ! He is the fulfillment of the entire old covenant. This is the witness of the prophets. This is the argument of the book of Hebrews. Jesus has reversed Adam’s curse. He has fulfilled the requirements of the Mosaic law for righteousness. He has fulfilled the ceremonial law—the priesthood, the sacrificial system, all of it. May we never seek to go back to the law now that God has established the new covenant through the blood of Christ.  
  
But what about the judicial law? How did it serve the unique purposes of God in and through Israel? It was given to govern this people—a particular people in a particular place at a particular time for a particular purpose. It was given to make Israel unique, so that other nations would say, “If only we had a God like Yahweh.” This is massively important: it was given to preserve the nation that would give birth to the Christ. The people of Israel were a disobedient and stiff-necked people. The Lord needed to give this people the judicial law to restrain them and to protect the line of promise until the coming of Christ.  
  
The judicial law, as a part of the Mosaic law, also typologically pointed to the kingdom of Christ and the eschatological purposes of God. A couple of examples will make this point. First, consider the curses and blessings of Deuteronomy 28\. God promised material blessing and prosperity to Israel for obedience to the law; he threatened curses for disobedience. This was temporally true and significant for Israel,[](#%5Fftn21) and it points to God’s righteous judgment at the end of the age. Second, consider the punishments of the judicial law. The death penalty was fairly common in Israel under the Mosaic covenant. One was executed, in many cases, for adultery or for breaking the Sabbath. This is different than the standard of proportionate, retributive justice articulated in the Noahic covenant.[](#%5Fftn22) These punishments were typological. They served to show the gravity of sin against God’s moral law and to, again, point to the severity of God’s righteous judgment at the end of the age for all those who have not trusted Christ.  
  
The Mosaic judicial law was specific and circumstantial.[](#%5Fftn23) It was perfect for what the Lord intended to do through the nation of Israel in the land of Canaan moving toward the birth of Christ. The judicial law was ideally suited to do what it did—for the people of Israel living in the land God promised them. Yet, it was circumstantial. It was an outworking of moral law uniquely accommodated to a particular people in a particular era of redemptive history. That nation of Israel had a particular purpose in God’s economy of redemption. So did its judicial laws. Now that the nation has served its purpose (i.e., to bring the promised offspring of Abraham who would save the world), the nation’s judicial laws have served their purpose, as well. We don’t need to be drawing straight lines from Canaan to California. In fact, we shouldn’t.  
  
**The Newness of the New Covenant**  
  
The new covenant is a better covenant than the old covenant. It is enacted on better promises. It is a different substance than the old covenant.[](#%5Fftn24) This is the argument of Hebrews:  
  
This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant (Hebrews 7:22).  
  
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises (Hebrews 8:6).  
  
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away (Hebrews 8:13).  
  
Therefore is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant (Hebrews 9:15).  
  
There is one covenant of grace in all of Scripture. The Scriptures are a cohesive whole. The point of the Bible is God’s plan of redemption accomplished through Christ. And yet, there is significant discontinuity between the old and new covenants.[](#%5Fftn25) This is critical when it comes to carrying over old covenant paradigms into the new covenant era.  
  
In particular, we would not carry over positive laws—ceremonial or judicial—from the old covenant into the new covenant. Positive laws are tethered to the covenant in which they are given. Confessional Baptist covenant theology does not understand that the covenant of grace was established with Abraham. For our purposes here, that means _the Mosaic covenant is not the covenant of grace_. And so, the positive laws of the Mosaic covenant are not binding in the new covenant (the covenant of grace established). The ceremonial law has been fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore, abrogated. The judicial laws ceased to be binding once the nation to which they were given (i.e., Israel under the old covenant) ceased to exist. The principles of general equity in the judicial law that are inherently tethered to the moral law still have value.  
  
Theonomy is prone to the error of what could be called a naked biblicism, meaning it is chapter and verse (proof texting) without an appropriate undergirding hermeneutic. It is devoid of a sound hermeneutical framework. Often, the rhetoric from theonomists goes something like, “It’s either God’s law or man’s law. Which are you going to choose?” Of course, we choose God’s law. But we choose God’s law rightly understood in the context of the biblical revelation. Theonomy misunderstands the biblical covenants, and thereby, misunderstands God’s law.  
  
**III. A CONFESSIONAL PERSPECTIVE**  
  
Confessional Protestantism is a distinct tradition within the broader Protestant tradition. This is especially true in the United States.[](#%5Fftn26) A confessional perspective on the sufficiency of Scripture, two-kingdoms doctrine, the mission of the church, and the Christian as pilgrim runs counter to the assertions of theonomy. I will consider each of these in brief  
  
**The Sufficiency of Scripture**  
  
Theonomists often appeal to the sufficiency of Scripture in order to contend for the continually binding nature of the Mosaic judicial code. The argumentation goes something like:  
  
God has given us everything we need to know in his holy, inspired word. We need to know how to function in the arena of civil government, so the word of God must provide us with that instruction. We can call agree that the one place where God himself engages in the project of civil government is in the Mosaic legislation. And so, God has in fact given his perfect, inspired take on civil government. He has given us the blueprint for statecraft. Now it is up to us to decide. Will we go with God’s law? Or man’s law?  
  
This is a misguided understanding of the sufficiency of Scripture, as defined by the confessions. Consider the language of 2LCF (chapter one on the Holy Scriptures):  
  
6\. The whole Counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own Glory, Man’s Salvation, Faith and Life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture… Nevertheless we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God, to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church common to human actions and societies; which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.  
  
In his word, God has revealed everything necessary for his own glory, as well as for man’s salvation, faith, and life (i.e., spiritual life in the church). God has not revealed everything there is to know about everything in the world. What is striking in the above paragraph is how the framers of 2LCF acknowledge that even in matters concerning the worship of God and the government of the church things are to be ordered by the light of nature (i.e., general revelation and natural law). If that is true in the church, how much more so in civil society?  
  
God’s word is sufficient for the purposes for which he gave it. In any of our appeals to the sufficiency of Scripture this must be taken into consideration. The assertion that Scripture is sufficient for everything, or even the assertion that the Scripture is sufficient for the governing of civil society, à la theonomy, misunderstands the doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture and diminishes the legitimacy and helpfulness of the light of nature.[](#%5Fftn27)  
  
**Two-Kingdoms Doctrine**  
  
A Reformed understanding of two-kingdoms doctrine[](#%5Fftn28) serves as a safeguard against theonomy, in that it helps us understand God’s rule over the world and especially over the church. This has significant ramifications for how we understand the church’s engagement with the broader culture. Two-kingdoms doctrine can be briefly be outlined as follows:  
  
The _common kingdom_ is established by the Noahic covenant. God will sustain the world, along with its cultural activities (e.g., procreation and securing justice). The _redemptive kingdom_ is established through the promise of the covenant of grace and its accomplishment. Christians live under the Noahic covenant, along with non-Christians; only God’s people live under the covenant of grace. Christians live in the common kingdom, along with non-Christians; only God’s people are a part of the redemptive kingdom. Christians belong especially to the church. As David VanDrunen writes:  
  
Through the church are citizens of heaven even now. This church—God’s redemptive kingdom in the present age—has a distinct membership, faith, worship, and ethic. Its way of life displays a counterculture to the cultures of this world. The church awaits the coming of Christ as a day of glorious consummation, when the bride will see her bridegroom face-to-face as she is ushered into the wedding banquet of the Lamb.[](#%5Fftn29)  
  
The redemptive kingdom of the church and the common kingdom of the world are not one and the same. Many, however, mistake God’s rule in one sphere for his rule in another. God rules the whole world, no doubt. But his rule over the redemptive kingdom is different than his rule over the common kingdom.  
  
The Bible is a story of two Adams—and we are not one of them. Only Jesus can accomplish what Adam failed to accomplish. We are not little Adams. We are not called to pick up where Adam failed and carry the mission on through.[](#%5Fftn30) We will not, through our cultural activities, usher in the new creation.[](#%5Fftn31) The new creation has been earned and attained by Jesus, and he is the one who will usher it in. Our cultural obedience does not contribute to building the new creation. Only the work of Christ has done that. To be clear, we should engage in cultural labors. God has not taken us out of the world. We have a range of responsibilities and callings in the world. This is a good thing! But we are not called to engage in cultural labors in order to build the world-to-come.  
  
In all of this, we must remember that Christ’s kingdom is not of this world. As Jesus said before Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world” (John 18:36). The zeal to rebuild Christendom or establish Christian geopolitical entities on earth may be sincere, but it is misplaced. The church does not need Caesar to do its work. And the church is not called to do the work of Caesar. Caesar is to attend well to Caesar’s kingdom; the Lord will attend to his.  
  
**The Mission of the Church**  
  
Theonomy tends to redefine the mission of the church to include: civil governments adopting and enforcing the old covenant judicial code; building a Christian society; rebuilding Christendom; Christianizing the nations.[](#%5Fftn32)  
  
We are under the new covenant. There is a mandate, but it is not one of dominion. It is a mandate to rightly preach the word of Christ and rightly administer the sacraments for the salvation of God’s people. The church of the Lord Jesus Christ will be built through word and sacrament, through the preaching of law and gospel—in other words, through the ordinary means of grace.  
  
Consider 2LCF 1.7 (on the Holy Scriptures):  
  
All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for Salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them.  
  
Also, 2LCF 14.1 (on Saving Faith):  
  
The Grace of Faith, whereby the Elect are enabled to believe the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts; and is ordinarily wrought by the Ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of Baptism, and the Lord’s Supper, Prayer and other Means appointed of God, it is increased, and strengthened.  
  
The only solution to man’s condition is not the establishment of civil laws in accord with the judicial law of Moses; it is the work of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men through the gospel. It must be said that most, if not all, theonomists would agree here. The plea is for them to reason consistently when it comes to the mission of the institutional church.  
  
**The Christian as Pilgrim**  
  
Confessionalism rightly understands the Christian life to be one of a pilgrim. We are sojourners and exiles in this world. This is a thoroughly biblical understanding. And it significantly impacts our thinking regarding the ministry and mission of the church. We have been promised a homeland, but we are not there yet. And between here and there, we face thousands of spiritual dangers. There is trial and temptation on every side. And so, we need nourishment, sustenance, and protection. This is precisely what the ministry of the church is meant to provide. D. G. Hart writes beautifully of this:  
  
For confessionalism a good bit of the Christian life includes a recognition of the spiritual dangers that still afflict believers and their consequent need for spiritual help and sustenance that the ministry of the church is designed to provide. Being a Christian, then, means participating in churchly rites and ceremonies, not simply as means of inspiration for evangelism and Christian activism, but primarily to learn dependence on grace and to persevere through life’s doubts and temptations… Confessionalism’s understanding of the Christian life as a pilgrimage…assumes the weakness and frailty of believers and measures success by the degree to which they continue to trust in God and hope for the world to come despite the trials and suffering of this life.[](#%5Fftn33)  
  
I trust it is clear how this posture runs counter to the ethos and emphasis of theonomy, particularly reconstructionist theonomy. It is important that we understand the countries in which we live are still Babylon. The common kingdom, as a whole, is still Babylon. Our calling in the church is not to turn Babylon into the new heavens and the new earth. We are to concern ourselves with the ministry of word and sacrament and the living of ordinary lives in the covenant community of the church. Through us and in spite of us, Christ will build his church. He will save his people. And one day, we will _receive_ a kingdom. Then we will see the activities and products of human culture destroyed and re-created, things to which we contributed and in which we participated. We will be given the kingdom by the Father. It will be his delight to give it, by the way. We will be welcomed into the holy city, new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from God (Revelation 21:2).  
  
In the meantime, may we take heart that what was written of the saints of old is also true of us:  
  
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city (Hebrews 11:13-16).  
  
“For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come” (Hebrews 13:14).  
  
**CONCLUSION**  
  
Confessional Baptist theology provides buttresses against theonomy in three significant areas. First, confessional Baptist theology maintains a threefold division of the Mosaic law, as well as the distinction between moral and positive law. These principles demonstrate that the judicial law of Moses is no longer binding on any geopolitical entity. Second, confessional Baptist covenant theology—particularly that of 1689 Federalism—affirms the historic covenantal framework of Scripture but upholds the uniqueness of the new covenant as the establishment of the covenant of grace. This theological framework makes plain the unique purposes of God in and through the nation of Israel under the old covenant. The Mosaic judicial law served a unique purpose for a unique people in a unique era of redemptive history. The nation has served its purpose in God’s economy of redemption (i.e., bringing the promised offspring of Abraham who would save the world), and so, the nation’s judicial laws have served their purpose, as well. Third, a confessional perspective on the sufficiency of Scripture, two-kingdoms doctrine, the mission of the church, and the Christian as pilgrim run counter to the teaching and the ethos of theonomy.  
  
_Editor’s note: this article was originally published by_ [_9Marks_](https://9marks.org/) _and is republished with their permission._  

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[](#%5Fftnref1) Gordon, T. D. “Critique of Theonomy: A Taxonomy.” _Westminster Theological Journal_, 56 (1994): 23.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref2) For example, one of the earliest and most influential voices in the theonomic and reconstructionist movement(s) was Greg L. Bahnsen. In his book, Bahnsen, Greg L. _By This Standard: The Authority of God's Law Today_. (Nacogdoches, TX: Covenant Media Press, 2020), he writes the “New Testament does not teach any radical change in God’s law regarding the standards of socio-political morality. God’s law as it touches upon the duty of civil magistrates has not been altered in any systematic or fundamental way in the New Testament…” He continues, “we must recognize the continuing obligation of civil magistrates to obey and enforce the relevant laws of the Old Testament, including the penal sanctions specified by the just Judge of all the earth. As with the rest of God’s law, we must presume continuity of binding authority regarding the socio-political commandments revealed as standing law in the Old Testament” (2-3). He goes on to say, “It is advocated that we should presume the abiding authority of any Old Testament commandment until and unless the New Testament reveals otherwise, and this presumption holds just as much for laws pertaining to the state as for laws pertaining to the individual” (5). In another volume, Bahnsen, Greg L. _Theonomy in Christian Ethics_. 3rd ed. (Nacogdoches, TX: Covenant Media Press, 2002), he writes, “God’s law as revealed in Scripture ought to direct society and the civil magistrate today. A society which is to reflect _Christian_ morality is a society which has the full, distinctive _law of God_ for its direction” (xlii). Bahnsen’s concern is to “show from God’s word that the Christian is obligated to keep the whole law of God as a pattern of sanctification and that this law is to be enforced by the civil magistrate where and how the stipulations of God so designate. That is to say, ‘theonomy’ has a central and irradicable place in any genuinely Christian ethic… Theonomy is crucial to Christian ethics, and all the details of God’s law are intrinsic to theonomy” (36).  
  
[](#%5Fftnref3) I refer the reader to Hicks, Tom. “Why Is Theonomy Unbiblical?” Web log. _Ask the Pastor, Tom Hicks_ (blog), 2022\. <https://pastortomhicks.com/2020/11/17/why-is-theonomy-unbiblical/> and VanDrunen, David. “Theonomy: A Theological Critique.” Web log. _The London Lyceum_ (blog), July 1, 2022\. <https://www.thelondonlyceum.com/theonomy-a-theological-critique/>.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref4) To deal with the contemporary, pop-level mash-up of theonomy, reconstructionism, and optimistic postmillennialism is beyond the scope of this article. I have aimed to engage theonomy in a theological, exegetical, and historical sense. It is also of note that theonomy and theonomists have been heavily influenced by the presuppositional apologetics developed by Cornelius Van Til, as well as the writings of Abraham Kuyper, but a consideration of the development of theonomy is also beyond the scope of this article.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref5) The text of the Second London Baptist Confession was written in 1677 and formally adopted in 1689\. It was adapted from the Savoy Declaration of Faith and Order (1658), which was a Congregationalist confession itself adapted from the Westminster Confession of Faith (1646), a Presbyterian confession. These three confessions of faith effectively represent the Puritan stream of the Reformed tradition (i.e., the English Reformation), the other stream of the Reformed tradition being the continental stream (i.e., Three Forms of Unity).  
  
[](#%5Fftnref6) For an excellent consideration of Reformed confessionalism, see Clark, R. Scott. _Recovering the Reformed Confession: Our Theology, Piety and Practice_. Phillipsburg, NJ: P&R Publishing, 2008.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref7) The third category can be called “judicial” or “civil.” Those terms are used interchangeably.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref8) Reformed theologians (along with Thomas Aquinas) have articulated this threefold division of the law. For a good, brief summary, see again “Theonomy: A Theological Critique”. More pointedly, in Calvin, John. _Institutes of the Christian Religion_. Edited by John T. McNeill. Translated by Ford Lewis Battles. Louisville, Kentucky: Westminster John Knox Press, 2006, Calvin articulates the threefold division of the law (4.20.15). On the moral law, he writes, “It is a fact that the law of God which we call the moral law is nothing else than a testimony of natural law and of that conscience which God has engraved upon the minds of men” (4.20.16). Regarding the judicial law, having already acknowledged that the judicial laws were taken away, Calvin goes on to say, “For the statement of some, that the law of God given through Moses is dishonored when it is abrogated and new laws preferred to it, is utterly vain. For others are not preferred to it when they are more approved, not by a simple comparison, but with regard to the condition of times, place, and nation; or when that law is abrogated which was never enacted for us. For the Lord through the hand of Moses did not give that law to be proclaimed among all nations and to be in force everywhere…” (4.20.16).  
  
[](#%5Fftnref9) I continually refer to Bahnsen because he is an early voice in the theonomic and reconstructionist movement(s) and is possibly the most deliberate and exegetical in his argumentation.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref10) _By This Standard_, 97.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref11) _By This Standard_, 98.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref12) Moral law is often referred to as natural law.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref13) The reference here is to Matthew 5:17ff, in which Jesus expounds the moral law to the hearts of men. He turns up the temperature as to what the law requires—at a spiritual level. He, of course, is preaching this as the one who came to fulfill all of the law’s requirements in the place of his people.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref14) Renihan, Samuel. _The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, And His Kingdom_. (Cape Coral, FL: Founders Press, 2019), 118.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref15) This is precisely what Bahnsen says when he writes, “The Puritans termed these case-law applications of the Decalogue ‘judicial laws,’ and they correctly held that we are not bound today to keep these judicial laws as they are worded…but only required to heed their underlying principles… The Old Testament required that a railing be placed around one’s roof as a safety precaution, since guests were entertained on the flat roofs of houses in that ancient society; with our sloped roofs today we do not need to have the same literal railing, but the general underlying principle might very well require us to have the fence around our backyard swimming pool—again, to protect human life” (_By This Standard_, 98-99).  
  
[](#%5Fftnref16) 1689 Federalism is the oldest view amongst confessional Baptists. On this and all the subject matter regarding Baptist covenant theology, I would strongly commend (in addition to _The Mystery of Christ_): Coxe, Nehemiah, and John Owen. _Covenant Theology: From Adam to Christ_. Edited by Ronald D. Miller, James M. Renihan, and Francisco Orozco. Palmdale, California: Reformed Baptist Academic Press, 2005; and Denault, Pascal. “By Farther Steps: A Seventeenth-Century Particular Baptist Covenant Theology.” Essay. In _Recovering a Covenantal Heritage_, edited by Richard C. Barcellos, 71–107\. Palmdale, CA: Reformed Baptist Academic Press, 2014.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref17) God causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good; he sends rain on the just and the unjust (Matthew 5:45). He gives the nations rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying their hearts with food and gladness (Acts 14:17). He gives to all mankind life and breath and everything (Acts 17:24).  
  
[](#%5Fftnref18) I make the with/through caveat because the Mosaic covenant was not actually made with Moses; it was made with the people of Israel. Moses was the mediator of the covenant.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref19) See, for example, the argument of Paul in Galatians 3:10-14, 4:21-26.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref20) See Romans 3:19-20, 5:20, 7:13, 9:30-10:4; Galatians 3:19\. Jesus also uses the law this way repeatedly in his ministry (e.g., Matthew 5:17ff, Matthew 19:16-26, Luke 10:25-37).  
  
[](#%5Fftnref21) To argue that God gives life, glory, and prosperity to nations (any nation other than Israel under the old covenant) who enforce and keep his law is a misunderstanding of the biblical covenants.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref22) It is the Noahic covenant, not the Mosaic, that provides the basis for the function of civil government. The proportionate, retributive justice articulated by the Noahic covenant was “an eye for an eye.” If you harm someone physically or financially, the civil authorities should exact an equal and just penalty for the sake of the victim.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref23) Circumstantial should not be understood to mean arbitrary. The Mosaic judicial law was not arbitrary, but it was certainly circumstantial.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref24) This is where 1689 Federalism differs from Westminster Federalism, which understands that the old and new covenants were one covenant under different administrations—in other words, the old and new covenants are the same substance.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref25) The Westminster Confession of Faith, in chapter eight, does make it clear that the one covenant of grace is administered differently in the new covenant and the old. There also chapter nineteen on the law of God, as in 2LCF (considered above). To be clear, according to the Westminster Confession of Faith, theonomy is not orthodox or confessional. That said, when it comes to theonomy, there are inherent pressures in Westminster Federalism. If the covenant of grace is the same substance in the old and new covenants, and is similarly administered in the new covenant, then we should expect the laws and paradigms of the old covenant to continue into the time of the new covenant—unless expressly repealed. This is one of the substantial arguments Presbyterians make for infant baptism.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref26) For a historical-theological analysis of confessionalism in America, see Hart, D. G. _The Lost Soul of American Protestantism_. Lanham, MD: Rowan and Littlefield Publishers, Inc., 2002.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref27) It is my understanding (and the understanding of many others) that the light of nature (i.e., natural law) is _the_ thing that should guide human beings in the arrangement and government of civil societies.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref28) For an excellent, accessible treatment of Reformed two-kingdoms doctrine, see VanDrunen, David. _Living in God's Two Kingdoms: A Biblical Vision for Christianity and Culture_. Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2010.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref29) _Living in God’s Two Kingdoms_, 30.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref30) A common assertion amongst theonomists is that we are fulfill the mandate that was given to Adam. Sometimes this is referred to as “Dominion Theology.” This is related to several theological problems, not least of which is mono-covenantalism, in which the covenant of works is categorically denied and is functionally collapsed into the covenant of grace.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref31) This is contradictory to the teaching of reconstructionist theonomy.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref32) While this is true of theonomy, in general, it is especially true of reconstructionist theonomy.  
  
[](#%5Fftnref33) _The Lost Soul of American Protestantism_, 171-172.

---

### Grace for the Weary

*Published: September 7, 2023 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/hope-for-the-weary*
*Tags: hope*

Jon Moffitt

How do you even contemplate lifting your broken heart to your God when your guilt has you buried 6 feet underground?

How do you find the reason to hope again when shame drowns you in despair?  
  
How do you walk into the light when your conscience drags you into depression?  
  
Grace!  
  
Your Father shouts your name not in anger but as a passionate Father looking for his lost child. He didn’t lose you. Your eyes and ears became deaf to his call because sin has covered your heart and blocked you from seeing his love.  
  
He shouts past the pain, the shame, and the noise of your brain so you can hear his voice. Child, come to me without trepidation. Listen to my words. I love you. I have always loved you. I loved you before you even knew me. I will love you through every trial. I will love you when your heart wanders from me. I loved you first, and remember, my love is never dependent upon you.  
  
His voice echoes through our hearts through the letter he wrote to us. Child, read my letter. Listen to my words. I know your weaknesses. I know the struggles you face. If you listen to my words, you will have the strength to endure this world. My love for you will provide the hope needed to walk another day. Look not to how you walk but to my words. Walk in my words. Look to my Son. He holds you. He died for you. He is preparing your home with me. You are safe. Put down the lies of the adversary and pick up my words. Listen to your brothers and sisters as they point you back to me. Hear my voice in their words. Listen to my songs in their lungs.  
  
Find your strength in my grace. When you do, another wayward child will be freed because you will point them to me. First, find your rest in me. Be renewed. Your joy is no waiting in your performance. Your joy is resting in my Son. Rest in him. And then give this truth to your neighbor so that you both can rejoice together.

---

### No Condemnation Now We Dread | Romans 8:1–4

*Published: May 28, 2023 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/no-condemnation-now-we-dread-romans-8-1-4*

This article is a summary from the following sermon: [No Condemnation Now We Dread](https://covbap.org/sermons/no-condemnation-now-we-dread-romans-81-4/ "No Condemnation Now We Dread") by Justin Perdue

Christ has kept his Father's every word. He obeyed the law perfectly. Every ounce of the Father's pleasure, Christ secured—and more. His righteous life is now ours. His merits now belong to us. We are children of God, adopted, loved, and known.

These are the kinds of truths Romans 8 so wonderfully proclaims. Known by many as “the Great Eight,” this chapter meets weary sinners with assurance, hope, and joy rooted not in themselves but in Christ alone. Romans 8 is a refuge for burdened souls because it declares with unflinching clarity: there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

## The Comfort of a Clear Statement

Romans 8:1 opens with words that every Christian needs to hear and believe: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

This verse draws together the sweeping arguments of Romans chapters 5, 6, and 7\. Paul has been proclaiming the assurance of our salvation through union with Christ. By faith, what belongs to Jesus belongs to us. His righteousness is counted as ours. His life is our life.

In chapter 6, Paul clarified that being united to Christ does not grant a license to sin. Far from it—our union with Jesus means we have died to sin and now walk in newness of life. In chapter 7, he explained that though believers are freed from the law as a covenant of works, the law itself remains good and holy, exposing our sin and pointing us to Christ.

Now in Romans 8, Paul draws the glorious conclusion: because we are in Christ, there is no condemnation remaining for us. None. The condemnation that once rested on us under the law has been completely removed.

It is important to notice that Paul moves from first-person singular in chapter 7 ("I do the very thing I hate...") to first-person plural here. This assurance is not only for apostles. It is not only for the spiritually elite. It is for all believers. It is for us.

For the Christian, the law can no longer threaten, accuse, or condemn. It has no claim over us. In Christ, we are safe.

## Why There Is No Condemnation

Paul goes on to explain how this freedom from condemnation has come to be:

> "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2)

Here, "the law of the Spirit of life" is a reference to the gospel—the message of Christ crucified and risen. "The law of sin and death" points to the moral law seen as a covenant of works. Under that covenant, righteousness demands perfection, and any failure results in death.

Left to ourselves, we could never fulfill the righteous requirements of God's law. The problem is not with the law—it is holy, righteous, and good. The problem is with us. Sin has corrupted our nature so deeply that, in our flesh, true obedience is impossible.

But what the law could not do—justify sinners—God has done.

> "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh..." (Romans 8:3)

The Father sent the Son, truly God and truly man, in the likeness of sinful flesh—fully human, yet without sin. Christ came not only to bear our punishment but to fulfill all righteousness on our behalf. In his life, he satisfied every demand of the law. In his death, he bore the full curse of the law against sin.

Everything that the law demanded—perfect obedience and full satisfaction of justice—was fulfilled by Christ. And now, by faith, all that he accomplished is credited to us.

Paul continues:

> "...in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:4)

This fulfillment does not rest on our imperfect obedience, but on Christ’s perfect work. As John Calvin put it, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us because "the obedience of Christ is accepted for us."

The Christian life, then, is not a frantic effort to achieve what Christ has already secured. It is a life lived by faith—trusting, resting, and rejoicing in what Jesus has accomplished.

## The Danger of Misusing Marks and Evidences

Throughout church history, Christians have recognized that the life of faith produces real fruit: love for God, hatred of sin, growth in holiness. These are good and necessary evidences. However, there is a great danger in misusing them.

Horatius Bonar warned that many sincere believers fall into the trap of seeking assurance not from Christ’s finished work, but from their own feelings, prayers, and spiritual attainments. They make peace with God contingent not on Christ, but on the state of their own hearts.

This is a cruel snare. It leaves believers forever questioning: Am I repentant enough? Is my faith sincere enough? Am I feeling the right things?

If our peace depends on the purity of our affections or the strength of our repentance, we will never have peace. As Bonar said, "the grace of Christ falls short of reaching the sinner as he is."

The gospel reaches us where we are—not where we ought to be. It calls us to behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world—not to behold ourselves and our religious feelings.

## Christ Alone Is Our Peace

Peace and assurance are found not by looking inward, but by looking outward—to Christ. The same Christ who first called us to himself by sheer grace still bids us come. He is still sufficient. His righteousness is still enough. His blood still speaks a better word over us.

We are not Christians because of the quality of our faith, or the depth of our repentance, or the sincerity of our feelings. We are Christians because Christ is faithful. We are Christians because he lived, died, and rose again—and because we trust in him.

When we sin—and we will—we do not run from Christ. We run to him. When we see little fruit, or when our hearts feel cold, we do not stay away until we "fix ourselves." We come needy and broken to the throne of grace, again and again, because we know the One who welcomes us there.

He has secured our salvation. He has promised to keep us. He has assured us that there is no condemnation for those who are in him.

## Final Word of Hope

The Christian life is often a war—a war within our own hearts. We groan, we stumble, we long for holiness we have not yet attained.

But even in the midst of the struggle, one thing remains unshaken: Christ. He is our righteousness. He is our peace. He is our hope.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Not because of our performance, not because of our feelings, not because of anything in us—but because of him.

He will not fail us. He will bring us safely home.

Until that day, we cling to him—and he holds us fast.

---

### Is Doug Wilson A False Teacher?

*Published: September 26, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/is-doug-wilson-a-false-teacher*
*Tags: Doug Wilson, False Teachers, Federal Vision*

Here’s a podcast episode that provides some important context on [Doug Wilson](https://youtu.be/dDOSLx1z2Z4 "Is Doug Wilson A False Teacher?")

[**Other Resources: Episode and notes about his writings on marriage and sexuality.**](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/church-discernment-and-purity-culture)

_**Video Notes By Pastor Jon Moffitt**_

**Doug Wilson Still affirms FV Joint Statement but Denies the Title**

**FV No Mas**

What I Do Not Mean (2017)

This statement represents a change in what I will call what I believe. It does not represent any substantial shift or sea change in the content of what I believe…I am making this lexical shift for the sake of clarity and communication—defining more precisely what was already there.  
https://dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/federal-vision-no-mas.htm

**Ecclesiastical Reports**

**URCNA: Report of the Synodical Study Committee on the Federal Vision and Justification**

By the standard of biblical and confessional teaching, this reformulation of the doctrine of justification by FV writers stands condemned. Rather than a radical contrast between justification by grace alone through faith alone, apart from works of any kind, a distinction is drawn between “meritorious” works, which play no role in justification, and “non- meritorious” works, which do play a role in justification. (P. 74-75)

**ARP: Minutes General Synod of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church**

The “New Perspective on Paul,” and the “Federal Vision,” are in conflict with the teaching of Scripture and as such they are unacceptable. (P. 18)  
https://arpchurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Minutes-of-Synod-2009-Web.pdf

**OPC: Report on Justification Presented to the Seventy-third General Assembly of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church**

The Committee believes that the following points that are held by some one or the other advocates of FV are out of accord with Scripture and our doctrinal standards:  
11\. A denial of the imputation of the active obedience of Christ in our justification.  
12\. Defining justification exclusively as the forgiveness of sins.  
14\. Including works (by use of “faithfulness,” “obedience,” etc.) in the very definition of faith. 15\. Failing to affirm an infallible perseverance and the indefectibility of grace. (p. 88)  
https://www.opc.org/GA/justification.html

**Mid-America Reformed Seminary Doctrinal Testimony Regarding** 
**Recent Errors May 2007** 

Article 52 We deny that faith alone means that the fruits that accompany our faith, such as works of love, or faith in its faithfulness, or faith in its non-meritorious working, or any other kind of works, are included in the definition and instrumentality of justifying faith; and so we deny that justifying faith is faith as a virtue. (p. 42)  
Article 53 We affirm that faith is merely the instrument for receiving Christ and accepting his merit. We deny the claim that God, having withdrawn his demand for perfect obedience to the law, counts faith itself, and the imperfect obedience of faith, as perfect obedience to the law, and graciously looks upon this as worthy of the reward of eternal life (CD, II, rejection of errors 4). (p. 42)  
<http://www.midamerica.edu/uploads/files/pdf/errors.pdf>

Many have claimed that DW does not affirm all of the FV theology, and he has been misrepresented by others. We will examine his writings and compare them to his affirmation of FV.

**CHANGING HISTORIC DEFINITIONS**

Creating a division between works and obedience in scripture.

**Like a Gelatinous Pudding – Blog Post**

In the New Testament, obedience is a good word. Also in the New Testament, works is not, unless it is modified with a word like good. We are called to good works ([Titus 2:7](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Titus%202.7)), but we are not saved by works ([Eph. 2:8-9](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Eph.%202.8-9)).

By way of contrast, sinners do not obey the truth ([Rom. 2:8](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom.%202.8)). The Lord is the author of eternal salvation for **all who obey Him** ([Heb. 5:9](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Heb.%205.9))…God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him ([Acts 5:32](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%205.32))…But the bottom line is that simple words obey and obedience should not set off alarm bells for people who read their Bibles.  
<https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/like-a-gelatinous-pudding.html>

_“What is faith?”_ This is a helpful paragraph from Ligonier on how protestants have always understood the definition of faith:

The Protestant Reformers recognized that biblical faith has three essential aspects: notitia, assensus, and fiducia.

Notitia. Notitia refers to the content of faith, or those things that we believe. We place our faith in something, or more appropriately, someone. In order to believe, we must know something about that someone, who is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Assensus. Assensus is our conviction that the content of our faith is true. You can know about the Christian faith and yet believe that it is not true. Genuine faith says that the content — the notitia taught by Holy Scripture — is true.

Fiducia. Fiducia refers to personal trust and reliance. Knowing and believing the content of the Christian faith is not enough, for even demons can do that ([James 2:19](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/James%202.19)). Faith is only effectual if, knowing about and assenting to the claims of Jesus, one personally trusts in Him alone for salvation.  
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/faith-defined

DW adds a new dimension to faith, thus adding something to the biblical teaching of faith. Adding these new definitions of works and obedience into faith. He is changing the definition of justification by adding works and sanctification into justification.

**Quotes from _“Reformed is not enough”_**

This book is still available on his website. <https://canonpress.com/products/reformed-is-not-enough/>

Below are several quotes where DW combines works into the definition of faith. He will clearly claim faith alone, but his definition of faith is not protestant because requires works to be a part of the meaning of faith.

In the historic Protestant view, **good works are inseparable from biblical salvation**…Because this is the case, **James can speak of justification by works**.  
Wilson, Douglas . Reformed Is Not Enough: Recovering the Objectivity of the Covenant . Canon Press. Kindle Edition.

DW creates a new understanding of salvation as it relates to the new covenant. This is because he holds to a two-stage understanding of justification. We are only justified if we remain faithful.

Chori Seraiah notes the importance of this in questions of apostasy. “The means by which men apostatize from the covenant is unfaithfulness. The means by which men persevere in the covenant is faithfulness.”43 In other words, to assert that men fall away because their salvation was **contingent upon continued faithfulness in the gospel is not to deny the sovereignty of God at all.** 
Wilson, Douglas . Reformed Is Not Enough: Recovering the Objectivity of the Covenant . Canon Press. Kindle Edition.

Faith is the only instrument God uses in our justification. But when God has done this wonderful work, the **faithful instrument** does not shrivel up and die. It continues to love God and obey Him. If it does not, but just lies there like a corpse, then we have good reason to believe that it was lying there like a corpse some days before—not being therefore an **instrument of justification**. Faith without works is a dead faith, and a dead faith never justified anybody.  
Wilson, Douglas . Reformed Is Not Enough: Recovering the Objectivity of the Covenant . Canon Press. Kindle Edition.

Rightfully so, DW has been accused of being a heretic because he refuses to recant the FV statement and his writings on faith and justification.

Why are we heretics because we say **faith cannot be separated from trust and obedience**, and because we say saving faith cannot be separated from a life of obedience and trust?  
Douglas Wilson, The Monroe Four Speak Out, 5, 6.

To be abundantly clear, we are going to look at other documents where he continues to defend this teaching. So it isn’t one book or one statement, or on sermon, or one blog article we could have possibly misunderstood. He has been clear for years and that is why we are pointing out that he is knowingly leading people away from the clear teachings of the gospel to a false gospel.

In an interview with Christian Renewal magazine, DW was asked:

“Doug, when you cite ‘continuing in goodness’ in Rom. 11 in your 2002 lecture, is that the **cause** **of our salvation or the** **fruit** **of it**?” Wilson replied:

**Yes**(laughter all around).

Look, in Colossians Paul says as you received Christ so walk in him. So **the way** **we become** Christians is **the way we stay**Christians is **the way we finish**as Christians—by faith from first to last.

So we continue in God’s goodness by trust. We stand by faith—they fell, but you **stand**—**doing** **that to the** **end is how you** **come to** **your salvation**. It’s the gift of God lest anyone boast. I believe we are saved by faith from first to last, which is why I have been accused of denying sola fide.  
Douglas Wilson, The Monroe Four Speak Out, 5, 6\. Cited in John M. Otis, [Danger in the Camp](http://triumphantpublications.com/dangerbk.html): An Analysis and Refutation of the Heresies of the Federal Vision (Corpus Christi, TX: Triumphant Publications, 2005), 335.

He is trying to hold both concepts in the same hand, and you can’t. You are either saved by faith as biblically defined and accepted by protestants, or you hold to a works-based salvation. You can’t say you agree and then give an opposing view.

**Living Faith – blog post**

I am treating _obedient faith_ and _living faith_ as synonymous… it is obedient in its life, and in that living condition it is the instrument of ourjustification.  
https://dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/living-faith.html

The reason Wilson mixes works into faith and justification is that he denies two key biblical understandings. He has openly denied the Law Gospel distinction presented to us in scripture. There is a collapsing of the law into the gospel. He also denies the covenant of works as historically held by the reformed. But for those who may not hold to this term, it isn’t that he denies the term; he is denying the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us by faith alone as apart from works.

Here again, he will state that he holds to imputation but then denies it in his explanation.

We deny that law and gospel should be considered as hermeneutics, or treated as such. We believe that any passage, whether indicative or imperative, can be heard by the faithful as good news, and that any passage, whether containing gospel promises or not, will be heard by the rebellious as intolerable demand. **The fundamental division is not in the text, but rather in the human heart.** 
Joint Federal Vision Statement https://federal-vision.com/ecclesiology/joint-federal-vision-statement/

I believe the covenant of works mentioned in Chapter VII is badly named. I would prefer something like the covenant of life (WLC 20), or the covenant of creation. I believe that this covenant obligated Adam to whole-hearted obedience to the requirement of God. The one stipulation I would add is that, had Adam stood, he would have been required to thank God for His gracious protection and provision. And had Adam stood, he would have done so by believing the Word of God. In other words, it would all have been by grace through faith… **he “covenant of works” was not meritorious and we deny that any covenant can be kept without faith.**  
CREC Examination, Pages 1-2, 4 <http://federal-vision.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/WilsonExamAnswers.pdf>

In a fictitious interview on his blog article “Semper Deformanda," DW is arguing for a change of understanding of what happened to Adam in the garden.

“I do not deny the existence of such a covenant. I simply maintain that Adam broke that covenant through his unbelief, and that, had he kept it, he would have done so by **grace alone through faith alone**.”  
https://dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/semper-deformanda.html

Recommended Resources:

* https://heidelblog.net/2018/08/resources-on-the-federal-vision-theology/
* https://heidelblog.net/2019/07/has-doug-wilson-really-changed-his-mind-about-the-federal-vision/
* https://nocompromiseradio.com/episodes/2022/09/21/aldo-leon-dissects-doug-wilson-part-1/
* Theocast episodes:  
  * (Coming Wednesday) Review of Wilson's theology by Jon and Justin
  * https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/smuggling-works-into-faith-with-mike-abendroth/
  * https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/do-john-piper-and-doug-wilson-obscure-faith-alone/
  * https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/faith-alone-is-radical/

---

### A Righteous King

*Published: August 29, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/articles/a-righteous-king*
*Tags: Jesus, King, King Jesus, Righteous King*

Justin Perdue

Chadwick Boseman recently died from colon cancer. He was 43 years old. His passing has affected many people, myself included. We continue to pray for Christ’s mercy on his family and loved ones. Though Chadwick’s acting career was relatively brief, it was significant. He delivered a number of memorable performances, but none were more notable than his portrayal of King T’Challa in _Black Panther._ As any gifted actor does with his character, he brought King T’Challa to life on screen.

I am grateful for Chadwick Boseman’s performance. It is one of those pieces of art that will stick with me. King T’Challa—and Wakanda under his rule—stirs my heart and creates a sense of longing in me. T’Challa is a good king. He is just. He is upright. He loves his people. He sacrifices himself for their good. I’ve seen _Black Panther_ several times, and each time I have watched it, I find myself thinking, “I want King T’Challa to be _my_ king.”

King T’Challa is as good of a pop-culture depiction of a righteous king as I have ever seen. He well represents the final words of King David from 2 Samuel 23:

“When one rules justly over men, ruling in the fear of God, he dawns on them like the morning light, like the sun shining forth on a cloudless morning, like rain that makes grass to sprout from the earth.” (2 Samuel 23:3-4)

We all long for such a ruler. We all long for a righteous king, who will execute justice, who will protect us from all our enemies, and who will give us peace—forever. God has given us such a king. His name is Jesus.

“Behold the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’” (Jeremiah 23:5-6)

King Jesus laid his life down for us. He took our sin upon himself and atoned for all of our iniquity. He has born our transgressions. He has taken them away from us, and by his stripes, we are healed.

King Jesus has provided us with his own righteousness. His perfect, obedient life is credited to us. He stands, indestructible and unshakable, as our representative. We have been united to him. And everything that is his, is ours.

King Jesus is our protector. He is our refuge. We take shelter in him. He has us in his hands, and no one can ever pluck us out.

King Jesus is our deliverer. He has conquered all of our enemies. He has crushed the head of the ancient serpent, who is the devil. He has defeated death and hell. Christ is victorious. He has triumphed. When he comes again for us, we will be raised imperishable in him. We will be with him. We will reign with him. We will forever praise our glorious king.

I’m grateful for the common grace means God gives us that display his glory, his grace, and his plan of redemption. For me, Chadwick Boseman’s portrayal of King T’Challa in _Black Panther_ is one of those means.

Wakanda Forever.

---

### The Danger of Self-Examination

*Published: February 13, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/look-to-christ/the-danger-of-self-examination*

Self-examination _feels_ spiritual, but it can quietly turn cruel.

When you look inward to find peace, you will always find mixed motives, weak resolve, and unfinished obedience. The more closely you examine yourself, the louder the accusations become. Your conscience was never meant to be your savior.

Scripture never tells weary sinners to look deeper within. It tells them to look outside themselves. To Christ.

Faith is not strengthened by measuring your fruit. Assurance is not secured by monitoring your performance. Peace comes from fixing your eyes on what Christ has done, not on what you are still failing to do.

When self-examination replaces Christ-examination, faith shrinks, and fear grows. But when Christ is your focus, the soul rests.

Look away from yourself. Look to Christ.

This "Look to Christ" is featured in our episode: [What Does “Examine Yourself” Actually Mean?](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-does-examine-yourself-actually-mean)

---

### Salvation By Faith, Not Obedience

*Published: February 6, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/look-to-christ/salvation-by-faith-not-obedience*

This "Look to Christ" is featured in our episode: [The Bible's Emphasis Isn't Obedience](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-bibles-emphasis-isnt-obedience)

Modern Christianity often speaks the language of the Bible while reversing its priorities.

Scripture does not center the Christian life on what we do for Christ, but on what Christ has done for us. Faith is not a footnote in the Bible. It is the engine. Obedience is never the source of life. It is the fruit.

From beginning to end, the Bible emphasizes God acting first. He rescues before He commands. He redeems before He instructs. Sinners are justified while ungodly, not after they prove themselves faithful.

Yet much of modern Christianity shifts the focus. Obedience becomes the priority. Faith becomes the starting line. Growth is measured by effort, discipline, and consistency rather than trust in Christ’s finished work.

This reversal quietly turns Christ from Savior into supervisor and leaves consciences restless.

The Bible’s emphasis is clear. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Not by performance. Not by resolve. Faith in Christ is what produces obedience, assurance, and real transformation. When faith is restored to its rightful place, obedience finally becomes what it was always meant to be. Fruit, not fuel.

---

### When Bible Reading Feels Hard

*Published: January 30, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/look-to-christ/when-bible-reading-feels-hard*

This "Look to Christ" is featured in our episode: [Why Christians Struggle to Read the Bible](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/why-christians-struggle-to-read-the-bible)

Many Christians struggle to read their Bible, and the struggle often brings more guilt than help. We open the pages and fear we will feel nothing. We worry that our inconsistencies reveal something broken in us. Slowly, Scripture starts to feel like another place. We are failing.

Jesus does not measure your faith by your reading streak. He is not waiting for discipline before offering grace. He is the Word made flesh who came near to the weary and the distracted.

Your hope is not found in how well you read the Bible, but in the one the Bible reveals when Scripture feels dry. Look to Christ. When your mind wanders, stop and remember Christ, even when all you can manage is a single verse. He is still giving himself to you.

The Bible is not a ladder you climb to reach God. It is a window that shows you the God who has already come to you in Christ.

---

### Christ Is Our Strength, Not Our Striving

*Published: January 24, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/look-to-christ/christ-is-our-strength-not-our-striving*

This "Look to Christ" is featured in our episode: [Losing the War on Grace](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/losing-the-war-on-grace)

Somewhere along the way, grace was taken from us. Not denied, but replaced. It was exchanged for self-help, pietism, and moralism.

We were taught to look to our discipline for strength instead of to Christ for power. We began to believe the Christian life is sustained by effort rather than by grace.

When grace becomes technique, joy fades. When grace becomes moral performance, hope collapses. And when we forget that a real spiritual war is raging, we try to fight unseen enemies with visible tools.

Grace restores our sight. Grace teaches us that Christ Himself is our strength.

That purpose is not found in our progress but in His presence. That joy is not manufactured by effort but received through communion with a living Savior who stands with His people in the fight.

Grace does not train us to rely on ourselves. It reopens our spiritual eyes to see what is real.

And when Christ is seen clearly again, meaning returns. Hope rises. Joy breathes.

---

### Abundant Grace, Steady Strength

*Published: January 15, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/look-to-christ/abundant-grace-steady-strength*

This "Look to Christ" is featured in our episode: [Grace as Divine Power?](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/grace-as-divine-power)

When Scripture speaks of grace, it speaks of something living and active. Grace is not only God’s kindness toward sinners. Grace is God giving Himself to His people.

Grace is not confined to the past. It is present help. Present strength. Present supply.

Grace is the way Christ stays with weak people. It is His power meeting us where we cannot stand on our own. It is His sufficiency when obedience feels fragile and endurance feels thin.

Grace is not an idea to be understood. It is a reality to be received.

In the Bible, grace is spoken of as something that works, strengthens, and trains. It fortifies the heart. It carries the soul. It holds the believer steady when everything else gives way.

Grace lives in Him. It flows from Him. And it remains with those who depend on Him. Grace has not faded. It has not weakened. It has not moved. Grace is still found where it has always been.

In Jesus.

---

### Assurance Is Not Just Comfort, It Is Contested Ground

*Published: January 7, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/look-to-christ/assurance-is-not-just-comfort-it-is-contested-ground*

This "Look to Christ" is featured in our episode: [Recovering a Supernatural Assurance](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/recovering-a-supernatural-assurance)

There are real enemies who want your faith weak and your conscience unstable. Evil spirits do not need you to abandon Christianity. They only need you to doubt whether Christ truly holds you. If they can keep you questioning your standing before God, they can keep you exhausted, inward, and afraid.

Satan is called the accuser for a reason. His work is not creative. It is repetitive. He drags forgiven sins back into your mind. He whispers that this failure proves you were never really saved. He tells you that God is patient with others but weary of you.

And the moment you try to fight that voice with your own obedience, you have already lost.

You cannot fight spiritual warfare with flesh. You cannot defeat accusations by promising to do better. You cannot silence the enemy by inspecting your performance. That only feeds the lie that your safety rests in you.

Faith is the weapon.

Scripture is how the battle is fought. Not as inspirational language, but as truth that captures the mind. And when the mind is captured, the soul follows. This is why Paul says to take every thought captive. Unchecked thoughts become chains. Gospel truth breaks them.

You have been set free. Not by your consistency. Not by your spiritual intensity. Not by your obedience. You were set free by the blood of Christ and the verdict of God.

To doubt that verdict is not humility. It is surrendering ground the cross already won.

When you stand in assurance, the accuser loses leverage. When you know you are justified, his voice has nowhere to land. He can shout, but there is no hook. No grip. No fear to exploit.

This is why assurance terrifies the enemy.

A believer who knows they are secure does not panic under conviction. They repent and rise. They do not run from God. They run to him. They do not crumble under suffering. They endure it knowing they are loved.

You do not stand in the strength of your obedience. You stand in the strength of the Lord.

And when you stand there, the powers of darkness cannot move you.

---

### Advent Joy for the Weary

*Published: December 17, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/look-to-christ/advent-joy-for-the-weary*

This "Look to Christ" is featured in our episode: [The Christmas Paradox](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/the-christmas-paradox)

Advent invites us to pause and remember why Christ came. He entered our world to address the deepest ache of the human heart: the guilty conscience. We carry memories we wish we could erase, sins we fear will define us, and failures that whisper we are unworthy. Christ did not come to add weight to that burden. He came to lift it.

In his first coming, he stepped into the very place where shame hides. He took every accusation that stands against you and bore it in his own body. Nothing you fear will rise against. Nothing you regret is left uncovered. He carried it all. His blood speaks a better word than your guilt ever could. It declares you clean.

He also wrapped you in his own righteousness. You do not come before the Father trembling, hoping you will be accepted. You come clothed in the perfect obedience of Jesus. You are not tolerated. You are welcomed. The barrier your conscience once felt has been removed. You stand before God with confidence, not because your record is clean, but because his record is yours.

This is the foundation of Advent joy. Before Christ returns to make all things new, he has already made \*you\* new in the deepest way imaginable. He has silenced the voice of guilt. He has washed the stains you could never remove. He has given you peace where fear once lived.

So as you wait, as you long for that final day when faith becomes sight, remember what his first arrival accomplished. You are forgiven. You are covered. You are clean.

---

### The Big Relief

*Published: December 10, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/look-to-christ/the-big-relief*

This "Look to Christ" is featured in our episode: [The Strange Relief of a Grace-Shaped Life (w/ David Zahl)](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/the-strange-relief-of-a-grace-shaped-life-w-david-zahl)

We live in a world that never stops asking for more. Be more productive. Be more disciplined. Be more spiritual.

And if we’re honest, it’s exhausting.

Even in the church, we can fall into this same pattern: turning the good news of Jesus into another performance review. We know the right words about grace, but in our hearts we still live like the Father’s smile depends on how well we’ve done this week.

So we keep striving. We compare. We measure. We fear. And deep down, we wonder if we’ll ever feel like we’ve done enough.

But here’s the truth: the gospel was never meant to add pressure to your life. It was meant to _relieve_ it.

Grace is not a pat on the back for the nearly perfect. It’s rest for the worn out, the anxious, the ones who keep falling short.

Jesus did not come to give you another burden to carry. He came to carry the burden for you. He obeyed where you’ve failed. He loved where you’ve grown cold. He rested in the Father’s approval so that you could rest in His.

The good news is this: you don’t have to prove yourself anymore. Christ has already proven everything on your behalf.

So when guilt whispers, “You should be doing more,” when fear says, “You’re not enough,” and when pride says, “You can fix this yourself,” look to Christ.

He is your righteousness. He is your peace. And He is enough for every unfinished part of your life. In Him, you can finally breathe. You can stop pretending. You can rest.

Because the gospel really is the big relief. The good news that the pressure is off, and grace is on.

---

### When You're Tired of Trying to Hold It All Together

*Published: December 3, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/look-to-christ/when-youre-tired-of-trying-to-hold-it-all-together*

This "Look to Christ" is featured in our episode: [The Prosperity Gospel Test](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/the-prosperity-gospel-test)

There’s a quiet kind of exhaustion that settles into the soul. Not the weariness of a long week… But the heaviness of feeling like _you_ have to make life work. That you have to be the strong one. The steady one. The one who gets it right.

Many Christians won’t say this out loud, but inside they live with a constant, low-grade fear: “What if I’m not good enough for God? What if I disappoint Him? What if I fall short again?”

And so they work. They try harder. They hide the parts of themselves that feel unworthy. They carry the pressure of holding together their faith, their family, their heart.

But friend, listen, Christ did not come to give you a heavier load to carry. He came because He knew you were already carrying one too heavy for you.

You don’t have to pretend with Him. He’s not waiting for you to level up spiritually. He’s not watching to see if you’ll finally get your act together. He moves toward you precisely where you feel the most fragile.

When Jesus says, “Come to me, and I will give you rest,” He’s not offering a break. He’s offering Himself.

He’s giving you a place where you don’t have to perform. Where you don’t have to protect an image. Where you don’t have to convince Him you’re worth loving.

You already are.

His heart toward you is steady. His mercy doesn’t fluctuate. His love doesn’t rise and fall with your best moments or your worst ones.

And when that truth begins to settle deep into your soul, when you truly believe that Jesus wants you, welcomes you, and holds you, something inside finally relaxes.

The fear loosens its grip. The pressure begins to fade. Your heart stops bracing for disappointment and starts resting in delight.

So if your heart is tired today… If you’re worn thin from trying to be enough… Look to Christ. Let Him be the rest your soul has been craving. Let Him be the One who carries what you can’t. Let His love quiet your fear.

You don’t have to hold your life together. He’s holding you.

And He won’t let go.

---

### The Saint and Sinner Reality

*Published: November 26, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/look-to-christ/the-saint-and-sinner-reality*

This "Look to Christ" is featured in our episode: [Why Do I Still Struggle with Sin? (w/ Luke Kjolhaug)](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/why-do-i-still-struggle-with-sin-w-luke-kjolhaugh)

If you’ve walked with Jesus for a while, you know the tension.  
You love Him… but you still sin.  
You want to obey… but you still fall short.  
One moment you feel close to God,  
the next, you wonder how He could still love someone like you.

That’s the saint and sinner reality.  
Luther called it _simul justus et peccator_,  
at the same time righteous and a sinner.

It’s not a glitch in the Christian life.  
It _is_ the Christian life.

In yourself, you’re still weak, still broken, still fighting sin.  
But in Christ, you are already righteous.  
Already loved.  
Already accepted.

Both are true.  
And the gospel holds them together.

When you fail, don’t look inward for reassurance.  
Look outward, to Jesus.  
He’s your standing before God.  
Not your performance.  
Not your progress.  
Christ alone.

This truth keeps you from despair when you fall…  
and from pride when you grow.

So today, when you feel the war inside,  
between who you are and who you long to be,  
remember this:  
your identity isn’t found in the struggle.  
It’s found in your Savior.

Look to Christ.  
He’s the One who justifies the ungodly, sanctifies the weary,  
and one day, will glorify the broken.

---

### The Joy That Breaks Our Selfishness

*Published: November 19, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/look-to-christ/the-joy-that-breaks-our-selfishness*

This "Look to Christ" is featured in our episode: [The Prison of Self-Preservation](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/theocast/the-prison-of-self-preservation)

Friend, if you’re anything like me, there are days when your heart turns inward.  
You start protecting your time, your comfort, your preferences.  
You cling to your plans.  
You tell yourself you deserve to look out for “number one.”  
And at first, it feels like freedom.  
“No one can disappoint me if I don’t need anyone.”  
“No one can hurt me if I keep my distance.”

But give it time, and that kind of self-protection becomes a prison.  
Selfishness doesn’t lead to freedom; it leads to loneliness.  
It isolates us in our own fears and assumptions.  
It slowly convinces us that life would be easier without the weight of other people.

But then…  
Lift your eyes.  
Look to Christ.

Look at the One who had every right to turn inward, to guard Himself, to stay distant.  
Yet He moved toward us.  
He stepped into our mess, our pain, our need.  
He loved us not because we were lovely, but because _He is love_.  
He gave Himself, fully, freely, joyfully.

And here is the miracle:  
When you see His love for you — I mean really see it — something in your heart softens.  
Fear loses its grip.  
Self-preservation loosens its hold.  
And the Spirit begins to whisper:  
“You are safe. You are wanted. You are known.  
You don’t have to protect yourself anymore.”

Loved people love people.  
Secure people move toward others.  
Those who have been embraced by Christ’s compassion find strength to open their arms too.

The joy you’re longing for is not found in living for yourself.  
It’s found in giving yourself — not to earn love, but because you already have it in Christ.  
It’s found in community, in the messy, beautiful, Spirit-filled act of loving others as He has loved you.

So if you feel yourself pulling away,  
If you sense selfishness creeping in,  
If isolation feels easier than intimacy:

Pause.  
Breathe.  
And look to Christ.

Look to the Savior who came near.  
Look to the Friend who laid down His life for you.  
Look to the Shepherd who carries you, forgives you, and holds you fast.

And as you behold His love,  
ask Him to free you from the fear that keeps you alone.  
Ask Him to fill you with the courage and joy that only come from loving others in His name.

Because in Christ, you will never run out of love to give.  
You are drawing from an infinite well.  
His love for you becomes His love through you.

Look to Christ,  
and find joy not in self-preservation,  
but in self-giving,  
the kind of joy that only grows stronger when it is shared.

---

## Episodes

### Suffering a Spiritual Hangover?

*Published: September 16, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/suffering-a-spiritual-hangover*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/dQ4Qo9%5F82h4)

What happens when the spiritual high fades and the trials begin? Jon Moffitt explores the danger of depending on powerful spiritual experiences to sustain your faith. Through stories from the Old Testament and teaching from Peter, Paul, and James, the conversation examines why spiritual highs cannot produce lasting faith or joy. Instead, trials and failures reveal where true stability must be found. The Christian life is not sustained by chasing another spiritual high, but by resting in what God has already done.

* Why depending on spiritual highs cannot sustain lasting faith
* What Old Testament stories and Peter, Paul, and James say about trials
* How trials and failures reveal where true stability must be found
* Resting in what God has done rather than chasing another experience

* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### A Wesleyan's Search For Rest (w/ Doug Hannah)

*Published: September 9, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/a-wesleyans-search-for-rest-w-doug-hannah*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*

[Watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1S63kLPlRg) 

What happens when the pursuit of holiness leaves you striving instead of resting in Christ? Jon Moffitt sits down with Christian radio professional Doug Hannah to explore his journey from the Wesleyan holiness movement and pietism toward a theology that offers real gospel rest. The conversation examines how pietism can shape the way Christians understand holiness, obedience, and the Christian life. Doug also shares how a clearer understanding of the gospel transformed his view of what it means to rest in Christ.

* Doug Hannah’s path from Wesleyan holiness and pietism toward gospel rest
* How pietism shapes holiness, obedience, and the feel of the Christian life
* What changes when the gospel relocates assurance in Christ rather than striving
* Christian radio, pietism, and losing the meaning of “gospel”

* [Anchored in Christ](https://www.anchoredpod.org/) — Doug Hannah’s podcast
* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:01\]](#transcript-00-00-01-1) Today, we're going to learn about a story about a young man who was saved in the Wesleyan holiness movement and then spent most of his life and career in Christian radio.

[\[00:00:11\]](#transcript-00-00-11-2) Yeah, you know where this is going.

[\[00:00:12\]](#transcript-00-00-12-3) A lot of things to do, superficial Christianity, and no rest.

[\[00:00:17\]](#transcript-00-00-17-4) The end of this story is powerful because he does find rest.

[\[00:00:22\]](#transcript-00-00-22-5) And then we talk a lot about Christian radio and just the gospel-centered/slash Jesus-centered movements, how we've lost what even the word gospel means, what is pietism.

[\[00:00:31\]](#transcript-00-00-31-6) It's a powerful and wonderful conversation.

[\[00:00:34\]](#transcript-00-00-34-7) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:35\]](#transcript-00-00-35-8) Today, I have Doug Hannah from Anchored in Christ podcast with me today.

[\[00:00:39\]](#transcript-00-00-39-9) I think you're going to enjoy this one.

[\[00:00:42\]](#transcript-00-00-42-10) Ever read the Bible and walk away feeling like you're failing?

[\[00:00:45\]](#transcript-00-00-45-11) No matter how hard you try, you're never measuring up.

[\[00:00:48\]](#transcript-00-00-48-12) That's not a motivation problem, that's a reading problem.

[\[00:00:51\]](#transcript-00-00-51-13) Most people have never been taught how to read the Bible the way Jesus taught it.

[\[00:00:56\]](#transcript-00-00-56-14) So when they hear things like be perfect, deny yourself, take up your cross, they assume it's all about trying harder.

[\[00:01:02\]](#transcript-00-01-02-15) But what if that's not what Jesus was doing at all?

[\[00:01:05\]](#transcript-00-01-05-16) What if the law isn't meant to fix you, but to reveal your need for a savior?

[\[00:01:10\]](#transcript-00-01-10-17) And what if the gospel isn't advice, but an announcement of what Christ has already done for you?

[\[00:01:16\]](#transcript-00-01-16-18) That's the difference between law and gospel.

[\[00:01:19\]](#transcript-00-01-19-19) And once you see it, everything changes.

[\[00:01:21\]](#transcript-00-01-21-20) Clarity, rest, and confidence.

[\[00:01:23\]](#transcript-00-01-23-21) In the Bible, according to Jesus, I show you how to read scripture the way Jesus intended.

[\[00:01:28\]](#transcript-00-01-28-22) So you stop feeling crushed and confused and start living with confidence and rest in Christ.

[\[00:01:34\]](#transcript-00-01-34-23) You can get your copy of the book at theocast.org.

[\[00:01:53\]](#transcript-00-01-53-24) Welcome to another episode of Theocast.

[\[00:01:55\]](#transcript-00-01-55-25) I'm your host, Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:01:56\]](#transcript-00-01-56-26) I'm the pastor of Grace Reform Church here in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:02:00\]](#transcript-00-02-00-27) And if this is your first time listening, we're so thankful that you're here.

[\[00:02:03\]](#transcript-00-02-03-28) And we have lots of resources available.

[\[00:02:05\]](#transcript-00-02-05-29) If you enjoy the message today, you can go to theocast.org.

[\[00:02:09\]](#transcript-00-02-09-30) There are some free books there on finding that Christ is enough for you, how to study the Bible, stuff on Reformed theology.

[\[00:02:16\]](#transcript-00-02-16-31) There's a community there.

[\[00:02:18\]](#transcript-00-02-18-32) We try to make all of that available for free, and we can do that because of the people who support this ministry.

[\[00:02:23\]](#transcript-00-02-23-33) So, for thank you for supporting us.

[\[00:02:26\]](#transcript-00-02-26-34) All right, I want to jump into it.

[\[00:02:27\]](#transcript-00-02-27-35) So, that's all who I am and what's going on, but I want to jump into the episode so we have plenty of time here.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-36) We don't run out.

[\[00:02:33\]](#transcript-00-02-33-37) Uh, today is a fun guest.

[\[00:02:35\]](#transcript-00-02-35-38) I, this, Doug, might be

[\[00:02:38\]](#transcript-00-02-38-39) the first time I've brought someone on to tell their story.

[\[00:02:40\]](#transcript-00-02-40-40) And I'm excited to do that because it's something I've always wanted to do.

[\[00:02:44\]](#transcript-00-02-44-41) And

[\[00:02:45\]](#transcript-00-02-45-42) it's to me, I like origin stories, I like to hear how the Lord has brought people to where they are today.

[\[00:02:53\]](#transcript-00-02-53-43) And, you know, sometimes I meet, you know, in the Baptist world, it's kind of like I have a boring testimony.

[\[00:02:59\]](#transcript-00-02-59-44) That's what people always say.

[\[00:03:02\]](#transcript-00-03-02-45) It's like, you were dead and now alive.

[\[00:03:05\]](#transcript-00-03-05-46) Pretty sure that's not boring.

[\[00:03:06\]](#transcript-00-03-06-47) You know, I'm pretty sure that's amazing.

[\[00:03:09\]](#transcript-00-03-09-48) You're not giving God credit, but what you're saying is you don't have the gutter to the glory story.

[\[00:03:15\]](#transcript-00-03-15-49) And that's not quite what I'm looking for.

[\[00:03:17\]](#transcript-00-03-17-50) So, anyways, Doug Hannah is with us today.

[\[00:03:19\]](#transcript-00-03-19-51) You're going to listen to his voice, and you're going to say, wait a minute, I think I've heard this voice before.

[\[00:03:27\]](#transcript-00-03-27-52) If you indulge in Christian radio from time to time, you may have.

[\[00:03:32\]](#transcript-00-03-32-53) You may have.

[\[00:03:33\]](#transcript-00-03-33-54) And if you've downloaded the Bible according to Jesus on Audible or on the audiobook on my website, that's also where you may have heard his voice, so That was so fun to do.

[\[00:03:42\]](#transcript-00-03-42-55) I loved having the chance to do that.

[\[00:03:43\]](#transcript-00-03-43-56) It had been years since I did an audiobook, and when we talked about it, I was like, Cool.

[\[00:03:48\]](#transcript-00-03-48-57) So, I was so grateful for that.

[\[00:03:50\]](#transcript-00-03-50-58) And it was, I did that.

[\[00:03:51\]](#transcript-00-03-51-59) I just want people to know I did that because I I like the book itself was like preaching to me as I'm narrating it.

[\[00:03:59\]](#transcript-00-03-59-60) So it was, I was getting a real, I mean, some books have done.

[\[00:04:02\]](#transcript-00-04-02-61) It's just like, okay, that's a job.

[\[00:04:05\]](#transcript-00-04-05-62) It's like, ooh, that's good.

[\[00:04:06\]](#transcript-00-04-06-63) Yeah, you grin as you say things going.

[\[00:04:08\]](#transcript-00-04-08-64) I can't believe I just said that out of my mouth.

[\[00:04:12\]](#transcript-00-04-12-65) And it was, I mean, I'm stealing stuff from the book for my show.

[\[00:04:15\]](#transcript-00-04-15-66) I'm like, oh, this is great.

[\[00:04:17\]](#transcript-00-04-17-67) Sirius XM.

[\[00:04:18\]](#transcript-00-04-18-68) So, yeah.

[\[00:04:18\]](#transcript-00-04-18-69) Well, you know, all Christian authors are stealing from somebody.

[\[00:04:21\]](#transcript-00-04-21-70) There's hardly an original idea anymore.

[\[00:04:23\]](#transcript-00-04-23-71) You've been robbed for sure.

[\[00:04:25\]](#transcript-00-04-25-72) Yeah, I'm robbing from somebody for sure.

[\[00:04:27\]](#transcript-00-04-27-73) Well, anyways, Doug Hannah is with us today, and I'm excited.

[\[00:04:32\]](#transcript-00-04-32-74) You guys are going to get to know him.

[\[00:04:33\]](#transcript-00-04-33-75) You're going to get to know about his podcast.

[\[00:04:34\]](#transcript-00-04-34-76) Doug's in the same city I am.

[\[00:04:36\]](#transcript-00-04-36-77) Well, I guess near.

[\[00:04:37\]](#transcript-00-04-37-78) What actual city?

[\[00:04:38\]](#transcript-00-04-38-79) Are you in Franklin?

[\[00:04:39\]](#transcript-00-04-39-80) Where are you?

[\[00:04:39\]](#transcript-00-04-39-81) Spring Hill.

[\[00:04:40\]](#transcript-00-04-40-82) Oh, you are?

[\[00:04:40\]](#transcript-00-04-40-83) That's right.

[\[00:04:41\]](#transcript-00-04-41-84) I knew that.

[\[00:04:41\]](#transcript-00-04-41-85) You're in Spring Hill.

[\[00:04:43\]](#transcript-00-04-43-86) So in Spring Hill.

[\[00:04:45\]](#transcript-00-04-45-87) And has his own podcast, which we'll get into a little bit.

[\[00:04:49\]](#transcript-00-04-49-88) I love the name of this podcast, Anchored in Christ, which is everything that we're about.

[\[00:04:55\]](#transcript-00-04-55-89) We are so thankful that I've always thought to myself, when you think about the enemy, man, he's winning the war on media just as far as like quality, content, and how many, like, how much is out there?

[\[00:05:11\]](#transcript-00-05-11-90) And sometimes people think, oh, well, you know, nobody's going to really listen to my podcast, or it's not going to get that big.

[\[00:05:19\]](#transcript-00-05-19-91) And you just never know who you're going to impact.

[\[00:05:23\]](#transcript-00-05-23-92) And you need to kind of leave that to the Lord.

[\[00:05:25\]](#transcript-00-05-25-93) Create good quality content for sure.

[\[00:05:28\]](#transcript-00-05-28-94) But, like, my mom's been on the radio for like the last five years up in Utah, just little radio programs.

[\[00:05:33\]](#transcript-00-05-33-95) I just love that.

[\[00:05:34\]](#transcript-00-05-34-96) You told me that your mom does that is just I hope you've told people about that.

[\[00:05:38\]](#transcript-00-05-38-97) And if you haven't, you need to.

[\[00:05:39\]](#transcript-00-05-39-98) Yes.

[\[00:05:39\]](#transcript-00-05-39-99) Oh, I have.

[\[00:05:40\]](#transcript-00-05-40-100) We promote our stuff all the time.

[\[00:05:41\]](#transcript-00-05-41-101) She has her second book, and she's just sweet.

[\[00:05:45\]](#transcript-00-05-45-102) So she interviews different pastors.

[\[00:05:47\]](#transcript-00-05-47-103) So she's got a daily podcast.

[\[00:05:48\]](#transcript-00-05-48-104) It's like two minutes long.

[\[00:05:50\]](#transcript-00-05-50-105) And then she has a weekly podcast.

[\[00:05:52\]](#transcript-00-05-52-106) And yeah, man, out in Mormon land.

[\[00:05:54\]](#transcript-00-05-54-107) Gribs your stuff, right?

[\[00:05:56\]](#transcript-00-05-56-108) And just uses it.

[\[00:05:57\]](#transcript-00-05-57-109) She does.

[\[00:05:58\]](#transcript-00-05-58-110) Yeah.

[\[00:05:58\]](#transcript-00-05-58-111) She's like, Can I borrow this?

[\[00:05:59\]](#transcript-00-05-59-112) I was like, take whatever you want.

[\[00:06:01\]](#transcript-00-06-01-113) Yeah.

[\[00:06:01\]](#transcript-00-06-01-114) I mean, mom, salute to you for doing that.

[\[00:06:04\]](#transcript-00-06-04-115) That's right.

[\[00:06:04\]](#transcript-00-06-04-116) That's absolutely right.

[\[00:06:06\]](#transcript-00-06-06-117) So I'm super proud of her.

[\[00:06:08\]](#transcript-00-06-08-118) And, you know, and she's always like, well, nobody listens to my podcast.

[\[00:06:10\]](#transcript-00-06-10-119) I said, Mom, you're on the radio.

[\[00:06:12\]](#transcript-00-06-12-120) You have no idea.

[\[00:06:14\]](#transcript-00-06-14-121) Like, I can look at some numbers and possibly see, but you have no idea when someone's flipped it through the radio and the Lord's going to use that content.

[\[00:06:21\]](#transcript-00-06-21-122) So, I'm glad you brought that up because that's something that people, I hear this all the time, especially people that are really into digital stuff like the radio.

[\[00:06:27\]](#transcript-00-06-27-123) who listens?

[\[00:06:27\]](#transcript-00-06-27-124) Oh, no, no, anybody listens to radio?

[\[00:06:28\]](#transcript-00-06-28-125) I'm like, you'd be surprised how many people still listen to the radio.

[\[00:06:32\]](#transcript-00-06-32-126) A vast majority of U.S.

[\[00:06:34\]](#transcript-00-06-34-127) adults still take the time for at least like 10 minutes each week and put on an FM or less so AM, but but a radio.

[\[00:06:42\]](#transcript-00-06-42-128) The kind that we all used to listen to is still being used.

[\[00:06:46\]](#transcript-00-06-46-129) Still being used.

[\[00:06:47\]](#transcript-00-06-47-130) Mom's got more impact than she realizes.

[\[00:06:49\]](#transcript-00-06-49-131) That's right.

[\[00:06:50\]](#transcript-00-06-50-132) Tapes and CDs might be gone, but the airwaves are still there.

[\[00:06:54\]](#transcript-00-06-54-133) So it's kind of like we thought when the Kindle book came around that paper books are going to be gone.

[\[00:06:59\]](#transcript-00-06-59-134) I remember the panic.

[\[00:07:00\]](#transcript-00-07-00-135) You know, I remember that.

[\[00:07:01\]](#transcript-00-07-01-136) And now it's like, no, paper books, they're not.

[\[00:07:04\]](#transcript-00-07-04-137) You know, you create a habit.

[\[00:07:04\]](#transcript-00-07-04-138) You like how you receive your information.

[\[00:07:06\]](#transcript-00-07-06-139) So, right, right.

[\[00:07:08\]](#transcript-00-07-08-140) Well, Doug, um, so you've been in radio for a long time, you've been involved in Christian media and the Christian world for a long time.

[\[00:07:16\]](#transcript-00-07-16-141) So, today we will just kind of just wanted to talk, like, walk through your journey and how it is that you came to.

[\[00:07:20\]](#transcript-00-07-20-142) You're currently confessionally Reformed, I'm sorry, confessionally Lutheran here in

[\[00:07:27\]](#transcript-00-07-27-143) the church is here in Spring Hill.

[\[00:07:28\]](#transcript-00-07-28-144) Is that correct?

[\[00:07:29\]](#transcript-00-07-29-145) That's right.

[\[00:07:30\]](#transcript-00-07-30-146) That's right.

[\[00:07:30\]](#transcript-00-07-30-147) So, what church are you at?

[\[00:07:31\]](#transcript-00-07-31-148) Faith Lutheran Church, technically Thompson Station, but it's Spring Hill.

[\[00:07:36\]](#transcript-00-07-36-149) That's why I asked because I was like, I remember it being not technically in Spring Hill, but I couldn't remember where it's at.

[\[00:07:40\]](#transcript-00-07-40-150) It's weird.

[\[00:07:41\]](#transcript-00-07-41-151) The mailing address is Thompson Station, but the actual physical plant is in the city limits of Spring Hills.

[\[00:07:46\]](#transcript-00-07-46-152) So, for people who don't know or care, which is probably growing as I speak, that's all south of Nashville for those who don't know.

[\[00:07:52\]](#transcript-00-07-52-153) That's right.

[\[00:07:53\]](#transcript-00-07-53-154) That's right.

[\[00:07:53\]](#transcript-00-07-53-155) So, how long have you lived out here?

[\[00:07:55\]](#transcript-00-07-55-156) We've been here for 25 years, believe it or not.

[\[00:07:58\]](#transcript-00-07-58-157) yeah.

[\[00:07:58\]](#transcript-00-07-58-158) He came here from Houston, had a radio job, local station here called Way FM, offered me a job in 2000, just the end of 2000, and I became their program director and eventually did mornings there.

[\[00:08:09\]](#transcript-00-08-09-159) And then, um, and so that was that was when it began here in Nashville and we've never left, never wanted to leave.

[\[00:08:15\]](#transcript-00-08-15-160) Yeah.

[\[00:08:15\]](#transcript-00-08-15-161) Yeah.

[\[00:08:15\]](#transcript-00-08-15-162) So talk to us a little bit about, so you came out of basically big, you know, big evangelical, like the big, you know, machine.

[\[00:08:24\]](#transcript-00-08-24-163) And so, talk to us a little bit about your story: like where you grew up, how you became came to faith, and then we can kind of work from there.

[\[00:08:31\]](#transcript-00-08-31-164) Yeah.

[\[00:08:32\]](#transcript-00-08-32-165) So, the upbringing from me, and by the way, as a radio guy, boy, there's nothing I love better, and I hope you can hear the sarcasm right now.

[\[00:08:39\]](#transcript-00-08-39-166) Nothing I love better than exposing my face to a video camera.

[\[00:08:44\]](#transcript-00-08-44-167) My friends who may be watching right now, let me assure you of something: whatever disappointment you've got in having to look at my face versus my voice, I promise you I feel it much more deeply.

[\[00:08:56\]](#transcript-00-08-56-168) And can we get more white light on my head?

[\[00:09:01\]](#transcript-00-09-01-169) I mean, really, look at this.

[\[00:09:04\]](#transcript-00-09-04-170) See, for those of you listening to a podcast, this is where you want to go over to YouTube because there's just extra, there's this extra job.

[\[00:09:11\]](#transcript-00-09-11-171) Maybe it's a mercy that you're on audio stuff to it.

[\[00:09:15\]](#transcript-00-09-15-172) so my upbringing was really chaotic in Michigan.

[\[00:09:18\]](#transcript-00-09-18-173) I was, was, uh, grew up with a single mom, effectively single, but along the way, in my growing up, it was just her and me, she had five husbands.

[\[00:09:28\]](#transcript-00-09-28-174) And um, she herself came out of a life of trauma and abuse, and so you know, hurt people, hurt people.

[\[00:09:35\]](#transcript-00-09-35-175) And mom didn't hurt me in the sense of she was abusive to me, but I think looking back on it now, it was definitely a childhood that was marked by a lot of trauma because of abandonment and because

[\[00:09:48\]](#transcript-00-09-48-176) of a lot of just crazy stuff.

[\[00:09:50\]](#transcript-00-09-50-177) It was the 70s, and my mom was a single woman in the 70s.

[\[00:09:56\]](#transcript-00-09-56-178) And so it was, you know, we're talking all of it.

[\[00:09:59\]](#transcript-00-09-59-179) Just she was in the military also.

[\[00:10:01\]](#transcript-00-10-01-180) So that's a culture that, you know, lends itself to just kind of being rough.

[\[00:10:05\]](#transcript-00-10-05-181) And so, as a kind of a sensitive, pretty frightened young boy, it was challenging growing up.

[\[00:10:12\]](#transcript-00-10-12-182) And it was always my number one fear in life.

[\[00:10:14\]](#transcript-00-10-14-183) I mean, it wasn't even close.

[\[00:10:16\]](#transcript-00-10-16-184) I would lose sleep at night about this, was that my mother would die, and there'd be nobody.

[\[00:10:24\]](#transcript-00-10-24-185) It's hard even now at 59 to not get a little choked up talking about it.

[\[00:10:27\]](#transcript-00-10-27-186) My mom died three years ago, but two things.

[\[00:10:31\]](#transcript-00-10-31-187) She's going to die, and I'm going to be on my own.

[\[00:10:34\]](#transcript-00-10-34-188) I'm going to live with my dad, which was an awful thing to think about for me.

[\[00:10:38\]](#transcript-00-10-38-189) And so that's the kind of stuff I was dealing with all the time.

[\[00:10:42\]](#transcript-00-10-42-190) And so I got to be a teenager, and that began to get a little better, but it also still carried with me, and there was a lot of just uncertainty about things.

[\[00:10:54\]](#transcript-00-10-54-191) I grew up in Michigan, southern Michigan, and I had a buddy of mine, and the thing you do, at least you used to back then in the early 80s, is on a good snowy night, you'd go out with

[\[00:11:04\]](#transcript-00-11-04-192) your buds and you'd find the perfect place to nail cars with snowballs.

[\[00:11:09\]](#transcript-00-11-09-193) And we had a perfect spot up on a hill as soon as a car would stop, and people would get mad.

[\[00:11:14\]](#transcript-00-11-14-194) So we'd hide.

[\[00:11:15\]](#transcript-00-11-15-195) So it was, it was just great fun.

[\[00:11:17\]](#transcript-00-11-17-196) So it's a Saturday night, and I'm spending the night at his house, and we're out doing this.

[\[00:11:20\]](#transcript-00-11-20-197) And he says, Oh, by the way, you're coming to church with me tomorrow.

[\[00:11:23\]](#transcript-00-11-23-198) And I, he wasn't asking.

[\[00:11:25\]](#transcript-00-11-25-199) I knew he had just started going to church and he had gone to some youth thing.

[\[00:11:29\]](#transcript-00-11-29-200) And so I was like, oh, okay, whatever.

[\[00:11:31\]](#transcript-00-11-31-201) So I go, and And I was happy to see some friends from school there.

[\[00:11:36\]](#transcript-00-11-36-202) There were a few girls there.

[\[00:11:37\]](#transcript-00-11-37-203) I was happy to see it.

[\[00:11:38\]](#transcript-00-11-38-204) It was okay there.

[\[00:11:39\]](#transcript-00-11-39-205) I didn't really know what to expect because I'd never done any church.

[\[00:11:42\]](#transcript-00-11-42-206) I spent about an hour with these people, Pastor John, and I can tell you, I remember it as clear as if it happened last Tuesday.

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-207) I can tell you from 1983 to now, that was the first time in my life that I was very aware that somebody else could and would love me other than my mom.

[\[00:12:03\]](#transcript-00-12-03-208) These kids, this church, these people, they just, and it was effortless, seemingly, to them.

[\[00:12:10\]](#transcript-00-12-10-209) I wasn't a project.

[\[00:12:11\]](#transcript-00-12-11-210) I just, I showed up and they did what they do.

[\[00:12:14\]](#transcript-00-12-14-211) And it was not long before I was like, I want to be a part of this.

[\[00:12:19\]](#transcript-00-12-19-212) And so I became a Christian.

[\[00:12:20\]](#transcript-00-12-20-213) That was Trinity Wesleyan Church in Jackson, Michigan in 83.

[\[00:12:24\]](#transcript-00-12-24-214) And so I started going there.

[\[00:12:27\]](#transcript-00-12-27-215) We went on a youth retreat in Hickory Corners, Michigan.

[\[00:12:29\]](#transcript-00-12-29-216) Lots of trivia here that no one will remember.

[\[00:12:32\]](#transcript-00-12-32-217) And then at that, we had the classic who wants to come forward and accept Jesus into your heart.

[\[00:12:40\]](#transcript-00-12-40-218) And I did.

[\[00:12:41\]](#transcript-00-12-41-219) It was the first of many times I came forward

[\[00:12:44\]](#transcript-00-12-44-220) as a Wesleyan.

[\[00:12:45\]](#transcript-00-12-45-221) But I was going to say the Wesleyan tradition for sure.

[\[00:12:48\]](#transcript-00-12-48-222) Yeah, it was, but it was, my goodness.

[\[00:12:52\]](#transcript-00-12-52-223) I'm telling you, if I could snap my fingers and go back to that time period for a week.

[\[00:12:56\]](#transcript-00-12-56-224) I'm doing if nothing else, just to say to them, you have no idea what.

[\[00:13:00\]](#transcript-00-13-00-225) Yeah.

[\[00:13:01\]](#transcript-00-13-01-226) I don't get emotional much, but I'm about to right now.

[\[00:13:06\]](#transcript-00-13-06-227) You don't know what this will mean to me over the next 50 years.

[\[00:13:10\]](#transcript-00-13-10-228) So, Right.

[\[00:13:12\]](#transcript-00-13-12-229) So that turned into a whole thing for me where I just then became Mr.

[\[00:13:16\]](#transcript-00-13-16-230) Church.

[\[00:13:18\]](#transcript-00-13-18-231) Everything was just about that.

[\[00:13:19\]](#transcript-00-13-19-232) But the other thing I wanted to do was be on the radio.

[\[00:13:22\]](#transcript-00-13-22-233) I always, from age nine or 10, I was just a radio nerd.

[\[00:13:25\]](#transcript-00-13-25-234) I was not one of these people that struggled with what I want to do with my life.

[\[00:13:29\]](#transcript-00-13-29-235) I know exactly what I want to do with my life, and that's be a top 40 DJ, top 40 DJ on the radio.

[\[00:13:35\]](#transcript-00-13-35-236) It was so cool.

[\[00:13:36\]](#transcript-00-13-36-237) So I become a Christian in a holiness tradition, and it becomes pretty clear: well, that's not going to fly.

[\[00:13:41\]](#transcript-00-13-41-238) I can't do that.

[\[00:13:43\]](#transcript-00-13-43-239) I might as well go be a prostitute, or something.

[\[00:13:46\]](#transcript-00-13-46-240) No way could I play rock and roll on the radio.

[\[00:13:49\]](#transcript-00-13-49-241) Well, one of the managers at a local Christian station attended my church, and he knew that I kind of wanted to do this.

[\[00:13:54\]](#transcript-00-13-54-242) And I got enrolled in a Christian school.

[\[00:13:57\]](#transcript-00-13-57-243) My mom thought, okay, well, he likes that.

[\[00:13:58\]](#transcript-00-13-58-244) Let's have him do that.

[\[00:14:01\]](#transcript-00-14-01-245) I got to go on a field trip to this local Christian radio station.

[\[00:14:04\]](#transcript-00-14-04-246) And the manager, who was at my church, invited, he said, it was obviously a plant.

[\[00:14:09\]](#transcript-00-14-09-247) He was like, I'm wondering if anybody here might be interested in an opportunity for some part-time work here at the radio station.

[\[00:14:17\]](#transcript-00-14-17-248) So I'm like, yes, sir.

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-249) So I began working at that Christian radio station in 84.

[\[00:14:23\]](#transcript-00-14-23-250) And I was that eager kid that was always willing to come in, work all night, fill in.

[\[00:14:28\]](#transcript-00-14-28-251) You know, that's back then, everything was live.

[\[00:14:29\]](#transcript-00-14-29-252) You couldn't just turn the computer on.

[\[00:14:31\]](#transcript-00-14-31-253) You had to, someone had to be there.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-254) Right.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-255) I was always like, you want me to work?

[\[00:14:34\]](#transcript-00-14-34-256) Sure.

[\[00:14:35\]](#transcript-00-14-35-257) So $3.50 an hour, I think.

[\[00:14:37\]](#transcript-00-14-37-258) And did that.

[\[00:14:38\]](#transcript-00-14-38-259) So, going to that church, working at this radio station, and my career in full-time religious enfranchisement and

[\[00:14:45\]](#transcript-00-14-45-260) franchisement began.

[\[00:14:47\]](#transcript-00-14-47-261) Where I was like, okay, I am now, I'm a card-carrying member of the faithful parachurch church thing.

[\[00:14:54\]](#transcript-00-14-54-262) And the school I went to was Baptist.

[\[00:14:57\]](#transcript-00-14-57-263) I began to get a little troubled by some of the Wesleyan teachings, particularly when I started to feel like there wasn't much assurance there.

[\[00:15:04\]](#transcript-00-15-04-264) And Baptists back then were known for once saved, always saved.

[\[00:15:08\]](#transcript-00-15-08-265) Yeah.

[\[00:15:09\]](#transcript-00-15-09-266) You know, that was the, I mean, there's a lot more to it than that, but that's what they taught us.

[\[00:15:12\]](#transcript-00-15-12-267) And I thought, yeah, it sounds right to me.

[\[00:15:13\]](#transcript-00-15-13-268) So I became a Baptist at that point.

[\[00:15:16\]](#transcript-00-15-16-269) And the journey continued.

[\[00:15:17\]](#transcript-00-15-17-270) So, yeah, but that's so that at this point, now we're in the mid-80s, met my wife.

[\[00:15:22\]](#transcript-00-15-22-271) We continued to be Baptists, raised our family.

[\[00:15:26\]](#transcript-00-15-26-272) My wife was always Baptist.

[\[00:15:28\]](#transcript-00-15-28-273) And along the way, just depending on where we moved, we would settle in at a different church.

[\[00:15:31\]](#transcript-00-15-31-274) And when we came to Nashville, we ended up at a Presbyterian church.

[\[00:15:38\]](#transcript-00-15-38-275) There was a local church in the community where I lived that was, we were looking for a place to now that we moved to Spring Hill.

[\[00:15:45\]](#transcript-00-15-45-276) And so we started attending, and I eventually joined the PCA Presbyterian Church in America.

[\[00:15:50\]](#transcript-00-15-50-277) I was a ruling elder, John.

[\[00:15:52\]](#transcript-00-15-52-278) I don't know if I did not know that.

[\[00:15:54\]](#transcript-00-15-54-279) So, this was early 2000s, like 2005, 2006.

[\[00:15:59\]](#transcript-00-15-59-280) And I thought, aha, this is it.

[\[00:16:02\]](#transcript-00-16-02-281) This is it.

[\[00:16:03\]](#transcript-00-16-03-282) So, I found what I'm supposed to do.

[\[00:16:05\]](#transcript-00-16-05-283) And I learned a lot about what you do and don't do in the reform circles.

[\[00:16:08\]](#transcript-00-16-08-284) And a lot of rules, a lot of rules.

[\[00:16:11\]](#transcript-00-16-11-285) The book of church order was a big thing.

[\[00:16:14\]](#transcript-00-16-14-286) I learned sometimes that there was just a you just had to behave yourself in a certain way.

[\[00:16:19\]](#transcript-00-16-19-287) It was just, no one was preaching this, but it was also like this.

[\[00:16:22\]](#transcript-00-16-22-288) You could just tell the smell in the room was okay, there's a reformed person, and then there's a not-so-reformed person.

[\[00:16:30\]](#transcript-00-16-30-289) And I've got to try to be a good reformed person, I'm an elder after all.

[\[00:16:33\]](#transcript-00-16-33-290) Yeah.

[\[00:16:34\]](#transcript-00-16-34-291) And so

[\[00:16:37\]](#transcript-00-16-37-292) I, that church died for other reasons.

[\[00:16:41\]](#transcript-00-16-41-293) And, but I can tell you this much.

[\[00:16:43\]](#transcript-00-16-43-294) That was the church that I first was preaching the real gospel.

[\[00:16:48\]](#transcript-00-16-48-295) The one you're preaching, the one that Jesus taught, that you don't outgrow the need for God's grace.

[\[00:16:54\]](#transcript-00-16-54-296) That's right.

[\[00:16:55\]](#transcript-00-16-55-297) Yeah.

[\[00:16:55\]](#transcript-00-16-55-298) And so when that ended, this is getting lengthy.

[\[00:16:59\]](#transcript-00-16-59-299) So you're good.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-300) That's how you're going to edit it.

[\[00:17:01\]](#transcript-00-17-01-301) What do you do, huh?

[\[00:17:02\]](#transcript-00-17-02-302) You're good.

[\[00:17:03\]](#transcript-00-17-03-303) So at that point, when that church died, I was like, well, I don't know what to do.

[\[00:17:08\]](#transcript-00-17-08-304) And that's when I began kind of my search.

[\[00:17:10\]](#transcript-00-17-10-305) Julie, my wife, and I decided it was okay for us to go to separate churches.

[\[00:17:13\]](#transcript-00-17-13-306) The kids were not small anymore.

[\[00:17:15\]](#transcript-00-17-15-307) We were trying to figure it out.

[\[00:17:16\]](#transcript-00-17-16-308) We actually took a year off of church because we were burned out by the whole experience with grace.

[\[00:17:19\]](#transcript-00-17-19-309) And then, um, we just, not John's grace, the church we used to go to, uh, and then so at that point, I started going to an Episcopal church because I, as I mentioned earlier, I kind of went through

[\[00:17:31\]](#transcript-00-17-31-310) a liberal phase.

[\[00:17:32\]](#transcript-00-17-32-311) I thought, well, you know, I was really into the writings of Willie Young.

[\[00:17:37\]](#transcript-00-17-37-312) and um, oh, um, I've lost his name now, the uh, Thomas Merton.

[\[00:17:44\]](#transcript-00-17-44-313) Um, and so you know, what is it mean to be spiritual?

[\[00:17:49\]](#transcript-00-17-49-314) What does God really expect?

[\[00:17:50\]](#transcript-00-17-50-315) Is God's word really the authority, you know, that kind of phase.

[\[00:17:54\]](#transcript-00-17-54-316) Yeah.

[\[00:17:55\]](#transcript-00-17-55-317) And of course, that was not satisfying.

[\[00:17:58\]](#transcript-00-17-58-318) So I went back to a mega church in town that my wife was going to all along.

[\[00:18:02\]](#transcript-00-18-02-319) And then eventually she became dissatisfied.

[\[00:18:05\]](#transcript-00-18-05-320) I was not satisfied.

[\[00:18:06\]](#transcript-00-18-06-321) So you can sense here, right?

[\[00:18:07\]](#transcript-00-18-07-322) We're like, it's not trying to, we're not finding it.

[\[00:18:10\]](#transcript-00-18-10-323) And then she started attending another Southern Baptist church because that's her heritage and that's what she wanted to do.

[\[00:18:16\]](#transcript-00-18-16-324) I, in COVID, so go back real quick.

[\[00:18:19\]](#transcript-00-18-19-325) So, when you guys were attending the Omega church, so what was like you said, we're not satisfied.

[\[00:18:25\]](#transcript-00-18-25-326) I mean, what was it?

[\[00:18:26\]](#transcript-00-18-26-327) You had almost, you had experienced in some ways good preaching.

[\[00:18:29\]](#transcript-00-18-29-328) Was it the preaching?

[\[00:18:30\]](#transcript-00-18-30-329) Was it?

[\[00:18:31\]](#transcript-00-18-31-330) I mean, what was it that you're like, yeah, this is definitely not a

[\[00:18:34\]](#transcript-00-18-34-331) pastor left, pastor left at the megachurch?

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-332) Yep.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-333) Yeah.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-334) And so we were, we were just like, you know, you can't really say that out loud.

[\[00:18:43\]](#transcript-00-18-43-335) I guess some people don't mind saying it, but we had a hard time saying it.

[\[00:18:46\]](#transcript-00-18-46-336) It was like, yeah, yeah, he's not there anymore.

[\[00:18:47\]](#transcript-00-18-47-337) It's just not the same.

[\[00:18:48\]](#transcript-00-18-48-338) Yeah.

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-339) But that was really it.

[\[00:18:50\]](#transcript-00-18-50-340) Yeah.

[\[00:18:51\]](#transcript-00-18-51-341) He was a dynamic guy.

[\[00:18:52\]](#transcript-00-18-52-342) Like everybody could tell this guy right now is going to, he's going to eventually be preaching and pastoring a church to 10,000 people, which in fact now he is, a different church.

[\[00:19:02\]](#transcript-00-19-02-343) And so you just, you knew that was his trajectory.

[\[00:19:05\]](#transcript-00-19-05-344) And so we knew we had a superstar on our hands.

[\[00:19:06\]](#transcript-00-19-06-345) I wanted to go to see him and hear him experience him each week.

[\[00:19:10\]](#transcript-00-19-10-346) And when he left, it was like, oh, this ain't the same.

[\[00:19:13\]](#transcript-00-19-13-347) But Uh, I didn't want to be a Southern Baptist either.

[\[00:19:18\]](#transcript-00-19-18-348) So we started going to separate churches again.

[\[00:19:20\]](#transcript-00-19-20-349) And on COVID, Christmas time, churches were closed because of an emergency proclamation.

[\[00:19:25\]](#transcript-00-19-25-350) It was Christmas Eve.

[\[00:19:27\]](#transcript-00-19-27-351) And I started calling around finding churches.

[\[00:19:29\]](#transcript-00-19-29-352) Are you actually having in-person services tonight?

[\[00:19:32\]](#transcript-00-19-32-353) And one of them, the pastor, answered the phone.

[\[00:19:33\]](#transcript-00-19-33-354) His cell phone was on their website, and he said, Yeah, come on by.

[\[00:19:36\]](#transcript-00-19-36-355) Don't have to wear a mask if you don't want to.

[\[00:19:38\]](#transcript-00-19-38-356) All right.

[\[00:19:39\]](#transcript-00-19-39-357) So I showed up.

[\[00:19:40\]](#transcript-00-19-40-358) And that church was Faith Lutheran Church.

[\[00:19:42\]](#transcript-00-19-42-359) So that was 2020.

[\[00:19:44\]](#transcript-00-19-44-360) And that's where it began.

[\[00:19:46\]](#transcript-00-19-46-361) Yeah.

[\[00:19:47\]](#transcript-00-19-47-362) So yeah, interesting journey.

[\[00:19:49\]](#transcript-00-19-49-363) So, Wesleyanism, Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, generic non-denomin in there, too.

[\[00:19:57\]](#transcript-00-19-57-364) yeah, and then Lutheran.

[\[00:19:59\]](#transcript-00-19-59-365) Yep.

[\[00:20:00\]](#transcript-00-20-00-366) And I worked for the Assemblies of God for a while.

[\[00:20:02\]](#transcript-00-20-02-367) So

[\[00:20:04\]](#transcript-00-20-04-368) Yeah, it's all in the mix.

[\[00:20:05\]](#transcript-00-20-05-369) Yeah.

[\[00:20:06\]](#transcript-00-20-06-370) So during all of this, you were working in Christian radio.

[\[00:20:08\]](#transcript-00-20-08-371) All of it.

[\[00:20:09\]](#transcript-00-20-09-372) Yeah.

[\[00:20:09\]](#transcript-00-20-09-373) Yeah, for sure.

[\[00:20:10\]](#transcript-00-20-10-374) And that's just a whole nother ball of wax.

[\[00:20:13\]](#transcript-00-20-13-375) It is.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-376) It's there's a lot to it, and particularly with the Christian music industry, where you're talking about two different things.

[\[00:20:23\]](#transcript-00-20-23-377) You're talking about that.

[\[00:20:25\]](#transcript-00-20-25-378) This is, I don't believe there's a bunch of bad actors there, but this is really about commerce.

[\[00:20:29\]](#transcript-00-20-29-379) It is.

[\[00:20:30\]](#transcript-00-20-30-380) And even in the listener-supported non-commercial side, ultimately, it's about following the lead and objectives of what the Christian music industry is wanting to do.

[\[00:20:41\]](#transcript-00-20-41-381) So

[\[00:20:43\]](#transcript-00-20-43-382) it's that may be a controversial statement for some who are in it, but I believe it to be true.

[\[00:20:47\]](#transcript-00-20-47-383) And so, you know, there is that constant tension there and being deep was not necessarily a requirement.

[\[00:20:54\]](#transcript-00-20-54-384) And looking the part was more important.

[\[00:20:58\]](#transcript-00-20-58-385) And that was something that just was never lost on me.

[\[00:21:01\]](#transcript-00-21-01-386) I knew how to look the part, but I also needed to make sure everything I was doing is authentic.

[\[00:21:05\]](#transcript-00-21-05-387) And I want to stress: I've never had a time where I was like, I don't believe this stuff.

[\[00:21:08\]](#transcript-00-21-08-388) I don't, this is not, that was never part of it, but it was, what are we really talking about here?

[\[00:21:15\]](#transcript-00-21-15-389) Do I believe in Jesus, that he is the way, the truth, and the life, the only way to salvation, that nobody comes to the Father except through him by faith.

[\[00:21:23\]](#transcript-00-21-23-390) Yes.

[\[00:21:24\]](#transcript-00-21-24-391) Never denied that.

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-392) But it was, how does that express itself?

[\[00:21:27\]](#transcript-00-21-27-393) That's where I struggled.

[\[00:21:28\]](#transcript-00-21-28-394) Yeah, exactly.

[\[00:21:30\]](#transcript-00-21-30-395) Yeah.

[\[00:21:31\]](#transcript-00-21-31-396) So, what's interesting about what you're saying is, you know, I can't remember the last time I've listened to Christian Radio.

[\[00:21:38\]](#transcript-00-21-38-397) it's just hard.

[\[00:21:39\]](#transcript-00-21-39-398) It's hard to listen to because

[\[00:21:44\]](#transcript-00-21-44-399) I'm trying to be gracious in my criticisms, but you do when you're trying to appease the masses, which is what your argument is, and I don't disagree.

[\[00:21:56\]](#transcript-00-21-56-400) You just, you, you have to be so broad and you have to be so wide so you're not offensive.

[\[00:22:02\]](#transcript-00-22-02-401) That you know, one of the arguments is: I remember in the 90s growing up, it's like if you sweat, if you just took a song and changed the label, because even if Jesus's name often wasn't even mentioned, this

[\[00:22:14\]](#transcript-00-22-14-402) is a song about the love I have for my girlfriend, you know.

[\[00:22:17\]](#transcript-00-22-17-403) And it's that, and that was the feeling of it.

[\[00:22:20\]](#transcript-00-22-20-404) And this podcast is not about criticism of Christian music, but in the Christian industry, one of the things that people feel is if there's no substance, like that's the thing about it: there's no substance in the music, there's

[\[00:22:32\]](#transcript-00-22-32-405) no substance on the radio, even the sermons that are there.

[\[00:22:36\]](#transcript-00-22-36-406) I just did an episode recently where I was reviewing the number one podcast right now, which is the Bible Recap.

[\[00:22:43\]](#transcript-00-22-43-407) And she did a criticism of, now, she's like world famous, and she goes to a lot of churches and she's involved with a lot of churches.

[\[00:22:52\]](#transcript-00-22-52-408) And she says, You know what?

[\[00:22:54\]](#transcript-00-22-54-409) The biggest problem in churches is today.

[\[00:22:55\]](#transcript-00-22-55-410) And my ears just perked up.

[\[00:22:56\]](#transcript-00-22-56-411) I was like, All right, like, this is one of the most influential Christian women in the world.

[\[00:23:01\]](#transcript-00-23-01-412) I want to know what she thinks is the problem with the church.

[\[00:23:04\]](#transcript-00-23-04-413) And I about fell over.

[\[00:23:06\]](#transcript-00-23-06-414) I about fell over.

[\[00:23:08\]](#transcript-00-23-08-415) And she says, They're not preaching the gospel, to which I was like waiting to fall over because I was like, What gospel is to you?

[\[00:23:16\]](#transcript-00-23-16-416) And she says, I heard a pastor say, You know what the gospel is?

[\[00:23:19\]](#transcript-00-23-19-417) Die to yourself and serve others.

[\[00:23:20\]](#transcript-00-23-20-418) And she says, That's not the gospel.

[\[00:23:22\]](#transcript-00-23-22-419) And I fell over.

[\[00:23:24\]](#transcript-00-23-24-420) I was like, and then she went on to describe the gospel.

[\[00:23:27\]](#transcript-00-23-27-421) And it was refreshing that there was, there's somebody who is in the big space who actually is getting it right.

[\[00:23:34\]](#transcript-00-23-34-422) And that encouraged me.

[\[00:23:36\]](#transcript-00-23-36-423) And

[\[00:23:38\]](#transcript-00-23-38-424) your journey, thankfully, and I want to point this out because sometimes when you get into a critical mode, you can just be critical about everything.

[\[00:23:47\]](#transcript-00-23-47-425) You were legitimately brought to Christ in a Wesleyan holiness tradition.

[\[00:23:52\]](#transcript-00-23-52-426) Without a doubt.

[\[00:23:54\]](#transcript-00-23-54-427) Right?

[\[00:23:55\]](#transcript-00-23-55-428) God can and does use broken, confused, and I would say sometimes under-discipled people.

[\[00:24:04\]](#transcript-00-24-04-429) It happens all the time, right?

[\[00:24:06\]](#transcript-00-24-06-430) I mean, and in that moment, in that time, it was exactly what I needed.

[\[00:24:10\]](#transcript-00-24-10-431) And, you know, I was baptized not long after that.

[\[00:24:14\]](#transcript-00-24-14-432) And, you know, of course, we Lutherans are real big on baptism, as you know.

[\[00:24:17\]](#transcript-00-24-17-433) and um, yet I know, and and if my church teaches, that's that's a baptism, that baptism counts.

[\[00:24:24\]](#transcript-00-24-24-434) That's right, we need to be re-baptized in some better tradition.

[\[00:24:28\]](#transcript-00-24-28-435) I was baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit in a lake in April.

[\[00:24:33\]](#transcript-00-24-33-436) That ain't fun in Michigan, just so you know.

[\[00:24:35\]](#transcript-00-24-35-437) So I'll never forget it.

[\[00:24:36\]](#transcript-00-24-36-438) You're kidding.

[\[00:24:37\]](#transcript-00-24-37-439) Pretty cool.

[\[00:24:39\]](#transcript-00-24-39-440) And the lake's up there ain't exactly pristine.

[\[00:24:41\]](#transcript-00-24-41-441) So it was, yeah, it was good to get out of it.

[\[00:24:43\]](#transcript-00-24-43-442) Yeah it was um for sure and i think with regard to the whole industry and everything i think there's been phases of this sure and there's a bit of internal reckoning on the radio side these days more about

[\[00:24:54\]](#transcript-00-24-54-443) we really need to be keeping the focus on Jesus.

[\[00:24:56\]](#transcript-00-24-56-444) That's really what we're here to do.

[\[00:24:57\]](#transcript-00-24-57-445) And I say amen to that, but it needs to be more specific than that.

[\[00:25:01\]](#transcript-00-25-01-446) It isn't just about a Jesus quotient, it has to do with the question that you just enunciated: what is the gospel?

[\[00:25:08\]](#transcript-00-25-08-447) Because everybody can say amen.

[\[00:25:10\]](#transcript-00-25-10-448) Oh, yeah, we got to preach the gospel.

[\[00:25:12\]](#transcript-00-25-12-449) Well, what are you talking about when you say that?

[\[00:25:15\]](#transcript-00-25-15-450) That's the thing, the line of distinction that we need to make very clear.

[\[00:25:20\]](#transcript-00-25-20-451) And I've been bothering the people in my own industry with articles and just spouting off at conventions about this very topic.

[\[00:25:27\]](#transcript-00-25-27-452) So I'm kind of becoming known for it.

[\[00:25:28\]](#transcript-00-25-28-453) Yeah.

[\[00:25:29\]](#transcript-00-25-29-454) Well, sometimes you even ask, we can go down this road a little bit, but you can ask somebody, hey, what is the gospel?

[\[00:25:34\]](#transcript-00-25-34-455) And they'll say it's the red letters of your Bible, or it's the four gospels, right?

[\[00:25:38\]](#transcript-00-25-38-456) And that's the confusing part: that the gospel, the word, that word has lost its meaning, you know, in and it's being redefined.

[\[00:25:48\]](#transcript-00-25-48-457) And like, but when people say live the gospel, uh, demonstrate the gospel, they're not things you live, they're not things that you demonstrate.

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-458) And I understand what they mean, um, and I and I am sympathetic to what they mean, but it is important that

[\[00:26:04\]](#transcript-00-26-04-459) you have a distinction between what the gospel is, because the Bible says the gospel is the power of God into salvation.

[\[00:26:12\]](#transcript-00-26-12-460) My obedience cannot bring someone else unto salvation, right?

[\[00:26:15\]](#transcript-00-26-15-461) Now, my obedience to proclaim the gospel can do that, but me proclaiming the gospel is not the gospel.

[\[00:26:21\]](#transcript-00-26-21-462) Me loving my wife is not the gospel.

[\[00:26:24\]](#transcript-00-26-24-463) Me preaching at a church, or none of those things are in and of themselves, the good news that saves people.

[\[00:26:30\]](#transcript-00-26-30-464) So if I obey, that does not produce salvation for someone else, right?

[\[00:26:36\]](#transcript-00-26-36-465) It is only the works of Christ that does that.

[\[00:26:39\]](#transcript-00-26-39-466) So it's important that even when we say, Oh, we need more of Jesus, what I have noticed, Doug, and I'm just kind of going off a tangent here, but I just told you we were going to have a

[\[00:26:47\]](#transcript-00-26-47-467) conversation, see where it goes because it'd be great, but what I am concerned about is even when people say, you know, this is Christ-centered, they actually mean Christ's law-centered.

[\[00:27:00\]](#transcript-00-27-00-468) Yes.

[\[00:27:01\]](#transcript-00-27-01-469) Like they're talking about Jesus and how we should be like Jesus, or emphasizing the law-based side of Jesus.

[\[00:27:10\]](#transcript-00-27-10-470) And they're not actually explaining what does it mean that it's Christ for you.

[\[00:27:14\]](#transcript-00-27-14-471) Like the idea of you being like when it's you know, um, anchored.

[\[00:27:19\]](#transcript-00-27-19-472) Um, what's the name of your podcast?

[\[00:27:21\]](#transcript-00-27-21-473) Why am I anchored in Christ?

[\[00:27:22\]](#transcript-00-27-22-474) Anchored in Christ.

[\[00:27:24\]](#transcript-00-27-24-475) In my mind, the anchored was the last word, but anchored in Christ.

[\[00:27:27\]](#transcript-00-27-27-476) What I know you don't mean is, well, yeah, all of the good teachings of a good moral man.

[\[00:27:33\]](#transcript-00-27-33-477) That's now thankfully, I know that.

[\[00:27:37\]](#transcript-00-27-37-478) But what happens is, is that even, and I think it's, I think Satan can do these types of things.

[\[00:27:43\]](#transcript-00-27-43-479) Even phrase like Christocentric or, you know, do you remember the gospel-centered movement?

[\[00:27:49\]](#transcript-00-27-49-480) Do you remember that?

[\[00:27:50\]](#transcript-00-27-50-481) Of course, I do.

[\[00:27:51\]](#transcript-00-27-51-482) Yeah.

[\[00:27:51\]](#transcript-00-27-51-483) Yeah, I was a big part of it.

[\[00:27:54\]](#transcript-00-27-54-484) So was I.

[\[00:27:55\]](#transcript-00-27-55-485) I mean, everything was gospel-centric, this, you know, gospel-centric skeet shooting and gospel-centric cycling.

[\[00:28:01\]](#transcript-00-28-01-486) You know, would you like to go on a gospel-centered backpack trip with me?

[\[00:28:06\]](#transcript-00-28-06-487) And it's so funny, too, how, to that point, how these things are often the spark that lights the fire is some best-selling book that comes out or some marketing campaign or some church that finally starts

[\[00:28:18\]](#transcript-00-28-18-488) hammering down on something.

[\[00:28:19\]](#transcript-00-28-19-489) And that's where it begins and it becomes a fad, you know?

[\[00:28:22\]](#transcript-00-28-22-490) It does.

[\[00:28:23\]](#transcript-00-28-23-491) And I was, you know, deeply impacted by the gospel-centeredness, but then I realized what was happening is it had become a fad thing.

[\[00:28:33\]](#transcript-00-28-33-492) Right.

[\[00:28:33\]](#transcript-00-28-33-493) And it's like, oh, this is popular, so let's jump on what is popular.

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-494) And

[\[00:28:40\]](#transcript-00-28-40-495) And that deeply influenced me.

[\[00:28:42\]](#transcript-00-28-42-496) And that's when something which blew my mind, and this is when I was in seminary when the gospel-centered stuff was at its peak, excuse me, and uh, like the gospel coalition, together for the gospel, all of that was

[\[00:28:56\]](#transcript-00-28-56-497) really, really happening.

[\[00:28:58\]](#transcript-00-28-58-498) And it was also at the time I had discovered pietism, and I was dumbfounded how I was reading gospel-centered things, and yet they were pietistic in nature.

[\[00:29:12\]](#transcript-00-29-12-499) Yeah, it's like, hmm, yeah.

[\[00:29:14\]](#transcript-00-29-14-500) And I'm assuming you've unpacked for all your viewers and listeners what you're talking about when you say pietism.

[\[00:29:18\]](#transcript-00-29-18-501) They know exactly what you're talking about.

[\[00:29:19\]](#transcript-00-29-19-502) Yeah, well, maybe it depends.

[\[00:29:20\]](#transcript-00-29-20-503) You know, if they clicked on this because they saw something new.

[\[00:29:23\]](#transcript-00-29-23-504) So it's, you know, you and I were laughing beforehand, that pietism at its core, as far as the way we which understand it and know it, it really comes from the Lutheran tradition.

[\[00:29:33\]](#transcript-00-29-33-505) They were the ones who kind of introduced it.

[\[00:29:37\]](#transcript-00-29-37-506) And sorry, yeah, no, that's totally fine.

[\[00:29:39\]](#transcript-00-29-39-507) If you want a fuller definition of what I mean by pietism, you can, it's over here.

[\[00:29:43\]](#transcript-00-29-43-508) You can get this book, Enough in Christ.

[\[00:29:45\]](#transcript-00-29-45-509) I have a whole chapter, a couple chapters on pietism, but piety is just an old word, and I like old words.

[\[00:29:50\]](#transcript-00-29-50-510) Old words sometimes, need to be brought back.

[\[00:29:52\]](#transcript-00-29-52-511) And I can remember when people would say, I am not a Christian, I am a Christ follower, or I am a believer, whatever it is.

[\[00:29:58\]](#transcript-00-29-58-512) You know, that's the pietism right there.

[\[00:30:01\]](#transcript-00-30-01-513) There you go.

[\[00:30:02\]](#transcript-00-30-02-514) So, piety is great.

[\[00:30:03\]](#transcript-00-30-03-515) So, piety would be the appropriate response to

[\[00:30:10\]](#transcript-00-30-10-516) To the calls of God.

[\[00:30:12\]](#transcript-00-30-12-517) So, for instance, he says in Ephesians 2 that you were dead in your sins, that he brought you to life, and that he will cause you to walk in these works that he has prepared for you.

[\[00:30:23\]](#transcript-00-30-23-518) So, piety would be to obey out of love and obey out of this new nature that you have, to obey God and do piety is to do works that reflect the nature of who Christ is for God's glory.

[\[00:30:36\]](#transcript-00-30-36-519) That's it.

[\[00:30:36\]](#transcript-00-30-36-520) That's what piety is.

[\[00:30:37\]](#transcript-00-30-37-521) Pietism takes those same works and others that are not there and says that these are obligated to To assure yourself or worse to gain the favor of God.

[\[00:30:52\]](#transcript-00-30-52-522) In other words, if you want God to be happy with you, if you want God to bless you, if you want to know that you are right with God, then you must do these things.

[\[00:31:00\]](#transcript-00-31-00-523) And if you don't do them to a certain level, then you will never know that you are accepted or that you can have assurance with God.

[\[00:31:07\]](#transcript-00-31-07-524) And so it is performance-based Christianity.

[\[00:31:09\]](#transcript-00-31-09-525) It's a purity test.

[\[00:31:10\]](#transcript-00-31-10-526) So if you're, if your life, you're always encouraged to be looking at your own life and checking it to make sure.

[\[00:31:18\]](#transcript-00-31-18-527) And it's funny how it's always external stuff.

[\[00:31:20\]](#transcript-00-31-20-528) I mean, there's a lot of talk about internal stuff, but really what we're talking about is things you do that others possibly could see if they were in the room with you.

[\[00:31:28\]](#transcript-00-31-28-529) So, your personal works, your just the good things that you do.

[\[00:31:33\]](#transcript-00-31-33-530) These are not just good things that you do, these are things that, okay, that means uh, check.

[\[00:31:39\]](#transcript-00-31-39-531) Yep, you're oh, that's proof.

[\[00:31:40\]](#transcript-00-31-40-532) Yep, there you go.

[\[00:31:41\]](#transcript-00-31-41-533) that's a verification that you are a good Christian.

[\[00:31:44\]](#transcript-00-31-44-534) And if you don't have that, then you really need to be asking yourself: Am I a good Christian?

[\[00:31:49\]](#transcript-00-31-49-535) And where's that going to go?

[\[00:31:50\]](#transcript-00-31-50-536) It's two forks in the road: pride or despair.

[\[00:31:52\]](#transcript-00-31-52-537) Because you're either nailing it or you're like, uh-oh.

[\[00:31:56\]](#transcript-00-31-56-538) That's absolutely right.

[\[00:31:57\]](#transcript-00-31-57-539) I love how in Titus chapter 3, he's going through and just talking about who they were and who Christ is now.

[\[00:32:06\]](#transcript-00-32-06-540) And so it's this beautiful explanation of the gospel.

[\[00:32:09\]](#transcript-00-32-09-541) And at the end of it, this is probably like one of the most verses that have been tattooed on the heart for me to remind myself not to waver from the gospel.

[\[00:32:20\]](#transcript-00-32-20-542) If the Apostle Paul writes to Titus and says this, he says, This saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things.

[\[00:32:29\]](#transcript-00-32-29-543) Like, he's like, not only is this a good thing, but put up the dukes, man.

[\[00:32:34\]](#transcript-00-32-34-544) Insist that this is the way.

[\[00:32:36\]](#transcript-00-32-36-545) This is the way.

[\[00:32:37\]](#transcript-00-32-37-546) And then he says, so that those so Paul has an agenda in mind, so the insisting on this, like, because some people time Doug, they hear me talk, they hear you talk, and they're like, Yeah, you guys don't

[\[00:32:51\]](#transcript-00-32-51-547) really care about good works, and it's like we actually really, really do.

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-548) It's that you want the works to come from a heart of love and affection.

[\[00:32:59\]](#transcript-00-32-59-549) For instance, can you imagine if God says, um, and He does this, but not to His children.

[\[00:33:05\]](#transcript-00-33-05-550) Could you imagine if God said to his children, you better love me or I will burn you forever.

[\[00:33:12\]](#transcript-00-33-12-551) And you're just like, holy mackerels, that's love out of fear.

[\[00:33:15\]](#transcript-00-33-15-552) But John doesn't say that.

[\[00:33:17\]](#transcript-00-33-17-553) John says, We love because he first loved us.

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-554) And what does he say, John tell us?

[\[00:33:25\]](#transcript-00-33-25-555) How does he demonstrate that love?

[\[00:33:27\]](#transcript-00-33-27-556) Jesus tells us that he laid his life down for us.

[\[00:33:29\]](#transcript-00-33-29-557) That was the demonstration of the love, right?

[\[00:33:31\]](#transcript-00-33-31-558) So he actually died.

[\[00:33:33\]](#transcript-00-33-33-559) And so the call to love is not out of fear.

[\[00:33:37\]](#transcript-00-33-37-560) But when I hear Christians talk, it's like, do you love God?

[\[00:33:39\]](#transcript-00-33-39-561) And there's like this anxiety underneath them of like, well, I don't know.

[\[00:33:44\]](#transcript-00-33-44-562) Maybe I don't love God.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-563) Now I'm worried.

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-564) And it's like, well, you should be worried, you know.

[\[00:33:48\]](#transcript-00-33-48-565) And there are some Baptist famous preachers out there who basically say that if you don't, if you desire anything else above God, and I'll let you decide who that person is with desiring God, then you're probably not a

[\[00:34:02\]](#transcript-00-34-02-566) Christian.

[\[00:34:03\]](#transcript-00-34-03-567) And I was like, man, I've never fully desired God ever in my entire life.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-568) Talking on this podcast, I probably haven't.

[\[00:34:09\]](#transcript-00-34-09-569) Like, I don't even know the darkness of my own heart.

[\[00:34:12\]](#transcript-00-34-12-570) Okay, so Paul has an agenda.

[\[00:34:14\]](#transcript-00-34-14-571) He goes, I insist that you focus in on Christ.

[\[00:34:18\]](#transcript-00-34-18-572) And this is trust me, trust me, this is a worthy thing.

[\[00:34:22\]](#transcript-00-34-22-573) Why?

[\[00:34:22\]](#transcript-00-34-22-574) What's the agenda?

[\[00:34:23\]](#transcript-00-34-23-575) So that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works.

[\[00:34:31\]](#transcript-00-34-31-576) Whoa.

[\[00:34:32\]](#transcript-00-34-32-577) He was like, it comes from what?

[\[00:34:36\]](#transcript-00-34-36-578) The gospel comes at God's love for you in Christ, how He's forgiven you.

[\[00:34:40\]](#transcript-00-34-40-579) It says this devotee.

[\[00:34:42\]](#transcript-00-34-42-580) He wants them to devote themselves.

[\[00:34:44\]](#transcript-00-34-44-581) That's piety.

[\[00:34:45\]](#transcript-00-34-45-582) He wants them to devote themselves to good works.

[\[00:34:48\]](#transcript-00-34-48-583) Listen to this.

[\[00:34:50\]](#transcript-00-34-50-584) For what reason?

[\[00:34:51\]](#transcript-00-34-51-585) Why, Paul?

[\[00:34:52\]](#transcript-00-34-52-586) Why should I do good works?

[\[00:34:54\]](#transcript-00-34-54-587) These things are excellent and profitable for people.

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-588) Yes.

[\[00:34:59\]](#transcript-00-34-59-589) There it is.

[\[00:35:01\]](#transcript-00-35-01-590) Yep.

[\[00:35:01\]](#transcript-00-35-01-591) For other people, as to quote Luther, God doesn't need my good works, but other people do, right?

[\[00:35:07\]](#transcript-00-35-07-592) So, this is why this conversation is so powerful because going back to what we're talking about, big evangelical, where I came out of, and you came out of, you have a lot of conversations about Jesus.

[\[00:35:19\]](#transcript-00-35-19-593) You have conversations about the gospel, but it's not this part of the gospel.

[\[00:35:24\]](#transcript-00-35-24-594) It's the, you're forgiven, but now, here's what you need to do.

[\[00:35:27\]](#transcript-00-35-27-595) And Paul says, you're forgiven, and you're clothed, and you're cared for, and you have an inheritance, and nothing else is left for you to do.

[\[00:35:35\]](#transcript-00-35-35-596) I insist that you trust that so that you can dedicate yourself to good works.

[\[00:35:39\]](#transcript-00-35-39-597) Yeah.

[\[00:35:39\]](#transcript-00-35-39-598) If you're not insisting on it, you'll dedicate yourselves to assuring yourself or finding an inheritance or getting God's favor.

[\[00:35:47\]](#transcript-00-35-47-599) But if you have all those things, then you can just go and love and serve others, which is what you found when you entered into the Lutheran tradition.

[\[00:35:57\]](#transcript-00-35-57-600) It, yeah, and I think I knew those things and I had understood those things, but it had never been organized and put together in such a way.

[\[00:36:04\]](#transcript-00-36-04-601) I don't want to be the sound of this was just paperwork, but it was, yeah, this is this is the thing where it all was, this was all practiced, so it was like, okay, when I see that phrase

[\[00:36:15\]](#transcript-00-36-15-602) behind you there on the what on the piece of wood, extra knots, yeah.

[\[00:36:19\]](#transcript-00-36-19-603) When I see that outside myself, this is being now not just something we say, and then we turn around and live as though actually it's something that is from outside ourselves, but we've got to be really, really working

[\[00:36:29\]](#transcript-00-36-29-604) hard to make sure it stays fresh and like, you know, that it's valid, that it all kind of got put together and came out where the rubber meets the road.

[\[00:36:37\]](#transcript-00-36-37-605) That's what Lutheranism did for me.

[\[00:36:40\]](#transcript-00-36-40-606) And I take great comfort in the fact that when I started to just read the confessions, get into what was going on here.

[\[00:36:47\]](#transcript-00-36-47-607) It's not new.

[\[00:36:48\]](#transcript-00-36-48-608) It's not new.

[\[00:36:49\]](#transcript-00-36-49-609) I don't know who said this.

[\[00:36:51\]](#transcript-00-36-51-610) I'm not a theologian by any stretch, but I did hear another, I think, either seminary student or theologians say, when it comes to theology, if it's old, that doesn't necessarily make it gold.

[\[00:37:02\]](#transcript-00-37-02-611) But if it's new, it most certainly isn't true.

[\[00:37:06\]](#transcript-00-37-06-612) That's good.

[\[00:37:07\]](#transcript-00-37-07-613) And I put a lot of stock in that because I think there's a lot of novel things.

[\[00:37:11\]](#transcript-00-37-11-614) I mean, in one sense, nothing's really new, but we tend to get enamored.

[\[00:37:15\]](#transcript-00-37-15-615) I mean, who remembers in 2026 the prayer of Jabez?

[\[00:37:18\]](#transcript-00-37-18-616) Who's talking about it?

[\[00:37:19\]](#transcript-00-37-19-617) My word, I used to give that out.

[\[00:37:23\]](#transcript-00-37-23-618) It was.

[\[00:37:23\]](#transcript-00-37-23-619) It was a thing.

[\[00:37:25\]](#transcript-00-37-25-620) And so I think that there is a sense in which what Lutheranism did for me, as someone who's been a part of the evangelical treadmill for a long time, is it just said, actually, we don't need to reinvent

[\[00:37:37\]](#transcript-00-37-37-621) the playbook.

[\[00:37:38\]](#transcript-00-37-38-622) A lot of Christians sorted a lot of this stuff out 500 plus years ago, and many of the traditions that are followed in the liturgy go much farther back than 500 years.

[\[00:37:47\]](#transcript-00-37-47-623) I just, you know, is that like the clincher?

[\[00:37:49\]](#transcript-00-37-49-624) I don't know, but it's something that I take a great comfort in.

[\[00:37:53\]](#transcript-00-37-53-625) And so I think, too, the other issue that is kind of along this line, where the people who are maybe concerned or critical of all this, have something of a fair point.

[\[00:38:04\]](#transcript-00-38-04-626) We have definitely got something going on here where we want to provide comfort for people in, like in what I do on the radio and through podcasts in our churches, but I do think there's a bit of false

[\[00:38:15\]](#transcript-00-38-15-627) comfort going on.

[\[00:38:16\]](#transcript-00-38-16-628) I think there's some universalism that's kind of crept in where there are people really, really quick to grab on to absolutely, Jesus saved me, done deal.

[\[00:38:24\]](#transcript-00-38-24-629) Yeah.

[\[00:38:25\]](#transcript-00-38-25-630) And I think that while no one would just sign off on that, like, oh, yeah, I don't have to do anything.

[\[00:38:30\]](#transcript-00-38-30-631) It doesn't matter.

[\[00:38:30\]](#transcript-00-38-30-632) I'm saved.

[\[00:38:32\]](#transcript-00-38-32-633) Or if they did, that sound weird coming out of their mouth.

[\[00:38:35\]](#transcript-00-38-35-634) I think that a lot of there are more and more people who live like that.

[\[00:38:38\]](#transcript-00-38-38-635) And so that's the other thing, right?

[\[00:38:39\]](#transcript-00-38-39-636) Because, as the confessions say, as you just said so eloquently, there is no Christian without a Christian life.

[\[00:38:47\]](#transcript-00-38-47-637) Yeah, right.

[\[00:38:48\]](#transcript-00-38-48-638) I mean, they're necessary, it flows together.

[\[00:38:51\]](#transcript-00-38-51-639) We just, it's not a chronological thing where Jesus saves you, and now next, this means you're just busy about doing things to make God happy.

[\[00:38:59\]](#transcript-00-38-59-640) Um, that's not what we're talking about here, and yeah, and so there's just so many ditches to go off onto, right, Pastor?

[\[00:39:04\]](#transcript-00-39-04-641) It's like, okay, you could go this way and go wrong, you can go this way and go wrong.

[\[00:39:07\]](#transcript-00-39-07-642) How about we just get back to what is the basics of the faith?

[\[00:39:13\]](#transcript-00-39-13-643) Yeah, what Christ taught us: word and sacrament.

[\[00:39:16\]](#transcript-00-39-16-644) Amen.

[\[00:39:18\]](#transcript-00-39-18-645) Do you ever wake up already feeling spiritually behind?

[\[00:39:21\]](#transcript-00-39-21-646) Like no matter how much you pray, how much you read, or how much you serve, it's just never quite enough.

[\[00:39:28\]](#transcript-00-39-28-647) Well, friend, you're not lazy and you're not faithless, you're tired, and you're not alone.

[\[00:39:34\]](#transcript-00-39-34-648) So many of us are living in a quiet prison.

[\[00:39:37\]](#transcript-00-39-37-649) The one that whispers, Grace saved you, but now it's up to you to keep it up.

[\[00:39:42\]](#transcript-00-39-42-650) The one that turns rest into guilt.

[\[00:39:45\]](#transcript-00-39-45-651) The one that makes you wonder if God is a little disappointed in you today.

[\[00:39:49\]](#transcript-00-39-49-652) I wrote a new book just for you.

[\[00:39:51\]](#transcript-00-39-51-653) It's called Enough in Christ: Freedom from a Performance-Driven Life.

[\[00:39:55\]](#transcript-00-39-55-654) It's a book that takes you back to what Christ actually said from the cross, it is finished, and shows you how to stop living like there's still work for you to do.

[\[00:40:06\]](#transcript-00-40-06-655) You can download the whole book free at theocast.org.

[\[00:40:09\]](#transcript-00-40-09-656) Christ really is enough, and in him, so are you.

[\[00:40:14\]](#transcript-00-40-14-657) Yeah, I think there is a lot of you know, I've never actually categorized it this way before, but I've thought about it this way.

[\[00:40:24\]](#transcript-00-40-24-658) One of the criticisms I have of the lordship/slash revivalism movement is, you know, I come from fundamentalism, and we pretty much question everybody's salvation because if you're not living exactly the way I live, then you're probably not a

[\[00:40:40\]](#transcript-00-40-40-659) Christian.

[\[00:40:41\]](#transcript-00-40-41-660) And

[\[00:40:42\]](#transcript-00-40-42-661) it's an external set of rules because Christ tells us what is required in order to be a believer.

[\[00:40:49\]](#transcript-00-40-49-662) And then

[\[00:40:50\]](#transcript-00-40-50-663) you have, so you have people.

[\[00:40:53\]](#transcript-00-40-53-664) Yeah, so there's three categories.

[\[00:40:54\]](#transcript-00-40-54-665) I think there are people who

[\[00:40:58\]](#transcript-00-40-58-666) Who have said a prayer or they kind of grew up in Christian tradition.

[\[00:41:03\]](#transcript-00-41-03-667) And so, growing up in Christian tradition, they consider themselves to be a good person, therefore, they're a Christian.

[\[00:41:11\]](#transcript-00-41-11-668) And when you even ask them to explain the gospel to you, they can't do it.

[\[00:41:15\]](#transcript-00-41-15-669) So you're like, oh, it's not that you actually do know the gospel and you're just living, you know, in disobedience.

[\[00:41:23\]](#transcript-00-41-23-670) It's like, you actually don't know the gospel.

[\[00:41:25\]](#transcript-00-41-25-671) And I've had people who literally have said, I've been a Christian my whole life, or I've gone with Christianity, I've been in the South, and I've never heard that gospel.

[\[00:41:35\]](#transcript-00-41-35-672) That Christ for you, that Christ forgives you, that Christ clothes you, and that Christ is the one who sustains you and sanctifies you.

[\[00:41:41\]](#transcript-00-41-41-673) Like, I've never heard that message.

[\[00:41:43\]](#transcript-00-41-43-674) Basically, what I've heard is: you know, Christ died for me.

[\[00:41:46\]](#transcript-00-41-46-675) I don't really know why, but live a good person.

[\[00:41:49\]](#transcript-00-41-49-676) Right.

[\[00:41:50\]](#transcript-00-41-50-677) And if that's what you're preaching your faith in, then it's like, yeah, you're not actually putting your faith in the actual person of Jesus Christ.

[\[00:41:55\]](#transcript-00-41-55-678) I don't think the gospel is complicated.

[\[00:41:57\]](#transcript-00-41-57-679) I think a child can believe it.

[\[00:41:58\]](#transcript-00-41-58-680) This is exactly what Jesus says.

[\[00:41:59\]](#transcript-00-41-59-681) So, I think there's a lot of people who in our city who are part of the Christian culture.

[\[00:42:05\]](#transcript-00-42-05-682) And then, I do believe there are people who have put their faith in Christ and they were never discipled.

[\[00:42:12\]](#transcript-00-42-12-683) They were never actually brought along.

[\[00:42:15\]](#transcript-00-42-15-684) And so they are the wandering sheep.

[\[00:42:16\]](#transcript-00-42-16-685) Now, I think it's interesting that in some people's brains, they don't have a category for these people.

[\[00:42:22\]](#transcript-00-42-22-686) It's either you're an obedient Christian or you're not a Christian at all.

[\[00:42:25\]](#transcript-00-42-25-687) And I'm like, you are not paying attention.

[\[00:42:28\]](#transcript-00-42-28-688) Our confessions don't say this, and definitely the scripture doesn't say this.

[\[00:42:33\]](#transcript-00-42-33-689) And I always point to Ephesians chapter 4, where Paul says that a Christian can be tossed about by every wind of doctrine, by cunningness and deceitful schemes.

[\[00:42:43\]](#transcript-00-42-43-690) Like someone can definitely be led astray for a long period of time.

[\[00:42:47\]](#transcript-00-42-47-691) Galatians 5 talks about being trapped in sin.

[\[00:42:50\]](#transcript-00-42-50-692) You've got James who says that they have this long period of disobedience.

[\[00:42:55\]](#transcript-00-42-55-693) And what I always tell someone is: this: if I find someone who's in that position, I just ask one question.

[\[00:42:59\]](#transcript-00-42-59-694) I say, Hey, look, do you disagree with God on how you should live?

[\[00:43:06\]](#transcript-00-43-06-695) And typically, I then explain, like, you're, this is what you're supposed to be doing according to your own faith.

[\[00:43:12\]](#transcript-00-43-12-696) Do you disagree with that?

[\[00:43:13\]](#transcript-00-43-13-697) no, I don't, I don't disagree with that.

[\[00:43:15\]](#transcript-00-43-15-698) Then why aren't you doing that?

[\[00:43:17\]](#transcript-00-43-17-699) Well, and then they, and so then, then there's like whatever reason that they give.

[\[00:43:20\]](#transcript-00-43-20-700) And I'm like, would you like to learn how you can actually live according to the life that God wants you to live, which is enjoying freedom.

[\[00:43:28\]](#transcript-00-43-28-701) Like they need to be discipled.

[\[00:43:30\]](#transcript-00-43-30-702) So, my church is actually filled with a lot of people who just come out of broken evangelicalism, has never, like, you come to, you think everybody in my church is reformed, but they're not.

[\[00:43:38\]](#transcript-00-43-38-703) You know, they have, they're like, I don't know what reformed theology is, but this guy teaches me Jesus and he teaches me how he loves me, and then he's discipling me.

[\[00:43:46\]](#transcript-00-43-46-704) And this is what this church is made of.

[\[00:43:48\]](#transcript-00-43-48-705) And I have found that I've trained our congregation and to think of the people in our church, in our community in this way.

[\[00:43:56\]](#transcript-00-43-56-706) Like, do you agree with God?

[\[00:43:57\]](#transcript-00-43-57-707) Yes, I agree with God that you shouldn't live in contradiction, like, you shouldn't live in sin, that you should go to church.

[\[00:44:03\]](#transcript-00-44-03-708) Yes, I agree with all that.

[\[00:44:04\]](#transcript-00-44-04-709) So, why aren't you doing that?

[\[00:44:05\]](#transcript-00-44-05-710) And typically, Doug, it's because they've been hurt or burned by the church, or they've been misled by Satan and they're living in sin, right?

[\[00:44:12\]](#transcript-00-44-12-711) And they need to be called to repentance.

[\[00:44:14\]](#transcript-00-44-14-712) And so, I'm always quick to find out.

[\[00:44:15\]](#transcript-00-44-15-713) Like, if you agree with God, let's find out why you're not living in accordance with that.

[\[00:44:19\]](#transcript-00-44-19-714) Right.

[\[00:44:20\]](#transcript-00-44-20-715) And then you have the third category, which is where people are like, you know, they're on the road to discipleship.

[\[00:44:26\]](#transcript-00-44-26-716) God's training them and caring for them, and they're living a life that's honoring and glorifying to him.

[\[00:44:32\]](#transcript-00-44-32-717) And

[\[00:44:34\]](#transcript-00-44-34-718) it's important to have that distinction for people because the thing that I think keeps a lot of people out of church and away from discipleship is that no one just ever sat down and said, Hey, do you actually

[\[00:44:47\]](#transcript-00-44-47-719) agree with God?

[\[00:44:49\]](#transcript-00-44-49-720) So, why are you living like you agree with him?

[\[00:44:52\]](#transcript-00-44-52-721) And there's typically there's hurt church, or there's pain, or there's no one who's ever cared for their soul.

[\[00:44:56\]](#transcript-00-44-56-722) They got saved at a crusade, they got saved on the radio, they were reading their Bible one day, like you know what I mean.

[\[00:45:01\]](#transcript-00-45-01-723) So it's hey, man, rescue them in.

[\[00:45:03\]](#transcript-00-45-03-724) And so, um, what's hard is that sometimes the difference, and I agree with you, sometimes the difference is the difference between someone who actually does believe the gospel and someone who doesn't, it's really, really hard to see the

[\[00:45:15\]](#transcript-00-45-15-725) difference.

[\[00:45:16\]](#transcript-00-45-16-726) Yeah, I think if your theology's wrong, it's just, I couldn't, there's any number of bad places it could go, but that's where it's going to lead somewhere, somewhere bad.

[\[00:45:24\]](#transcript-00-45-24-727) And, you know, I will, I'll cop to this as somebody who's made his career in Christian radio.

[\[00:45:29\]](#transcript-00-45-29-728) You know, there was a time when there wasn't quite so much of it.

[\[00:45:32\]](#transcript-00-45-32-729) I mean, we've got everything now.

[\[00:45:34\]](#transcript-00-45-34-730) So there are people who become Christians, God be praised, but then their discipling comes from YouTube and from their favorite celebrity preachers, the ones that are the most famous, the ones heard on the radio.

[\[00:45:46\]](#transcript-00-45-46-731) And that can be great.

[\[00:45:47\]](#transcript-00-45-47-732) You know, I mean, I, I, I love the fact that we have this preponderance of all this stuff now, and uh, you know, amend all of it.

[\[00:45:53\]](#transcript-00-45-53-733) Yeah.

[\[00:45:54\]](#transcript-00-45-54-734) But you, you really, you become disjointed if, if, if, and, and talk about from every being tossed about, if a certain preacher takes hold and he happens to be, you know, the one that's popular at the moment, and

[\[00:46:07\]](#transcript-00-46-07-735) uh, it becomes, I follow that guy, yeah, I follow Apollos, I follow Paul.

[\[00:46:12\]](#transcript-00-46-12-736) You know, it just becomes the same thing.

[\[00:46:13\]](#transcript-00-46-13-737) Just, it's just which ones do I subscribe to, and which ones do I quote the most?

[\[00:46:17\]](#transcript-00-46-17-738) Which of these people?

[\[00:46:18\]](#transcript-00-46-18-739) For me, for a while, it was Tim Keller.

[\[00:46:20\]](#transcript-00-46-20-740) If this guy says something, I'm on board.

[\[00:46:23\]](#transcript-00-46-23-741) And it isn't about whether or not that was he was a good person to do that with.

[\[00:46:27\]](#transcript-00-46-27-742) It's fat.

[\[00:46:28\]](#transcript-00-46-28-743) You shouldn't do that.

[\[00:46:29\]](#transcript-00-46-29-744) Like, these are, this is like, I call it spiritual empty calories.

[\[00:46:34\]](#transcript-00-46-34-745) Yeah.

[\[00:46:35\]](#transcript-00-46-35-746) you don't get the real nutrients that you need as a Christian if you're not taking that next step and getting discipled in a church as your people are, and that hopefully in ours are.

[\[00:46:48\]](#transcript-00-46-48-747) And so, you and I, I just know we have a real concern.

[\[00:46:51\]](#transcript-00-46-51-748) And just because of our background of for the religious treadmill people, that's not everybody, though, but that's us.

[\[00:46:56\]](#transcript-00-46-56-749) Where, you know, I was told this was the gospel.

[\[00:46:58\]](#transcript-00-46-58-750) And actually, this is a bill of goods.

[\[00:47:00\]](#transcript-00-47-00-751) It's not.

[\[00:47:01\]](#transcript-00-47-01-752) And we want to set those people free.

[\[00:47:02\]](#transcript-00-47-02-753) And because Christ does, and that's so, but I can't.

[\[00:47:06\]](#transcript-00-47-06-754) Yeah, there's a lot of people out there for whom they ain't even thinking about what does God want, they're just living their life and going, you know, I checked a religious box, I'm good.

[\[00:47:13\]](#transcript-00-47-13-755) And it's, well, that's not it either.

[\[00:47:14\]](#transcript-00-47-14-756) You're right, and that's the dangerous part of it where you can say, Do you believe the gospel?

[\[00:47:19\]](#transcript-00-47-19-757) They say yes, and you can't stop there.

[\[00:47:20\]](#transcript-00-47-20-758) Oh, you mean Christ died for you?

[\[00:47:22\]](#transcript-00-47-22-759) And that, you know, like you have to go on.

[\[00:47:25\]](#transcript-00-47-25-760) And I think, you know, sometimes I've had people visit my church and they're like, why do you always talk about grace?

[\[00:47:32\]](#transcript-00-47-32-761) Why are you always emphasizing the gospel?

[\[00:47:34\]](#transcript-00-47-34-762) And I was like, well, you assume the gospel is the cleansing point and the law is the transforming point.

[\[00:47:41\]](#transcript-00-47-41-763) And I am convinced that you've got that completely backwards where it's the gospel is the cleansing point, and the gospel is the transforming point.

[\[00:47:50\]](#transcript-00-47-50-764) And all the law is the instructions, but you can't make you do it.

[\[00:47:54\]](#transcript-00-47-54-765) You know, I can give you all the instructions in the world that you want, and it can't happen.

[\[00:47:59\]](#transcript-00-47-59-766) And this mission of reclaiming the gospel and pulling the clutter off the gospel, I would agree with you that it's heartbreaking to think about how many people who are not.

[\[00:48:09\]](#transcript-00-48-09-767) And it's again, it's not because

[\[00:48:13\]](#transcript-00-48-13-768) they've been given a false gospel.

[\[00:48:15\]](#transcript-00-48-15-769) They've been given a do better, be better, be like, be a southern moralist, be a good southern, whatever it is, and that's not the gospel.

[\[00:48:26\]](#transcript-00-48-26-770) And then they get offended by it, and you're like, Look, I'm not trying to be offensive.

[\[00:48:30\]](#transcript-00-48-30-771) I'm not even pointing to your actions.

[\[00:48:31\]](#transcript-00-48-31-772) I'm not saying your actions are saving you.

[\[00:48:33\]](#transcript-00-48-33-773) I'm saying the thing you're putting your faith in is not saving you.

[\[00:48:36\]](#transcript-00-48-36-774) Like, that's the problem, you know.

[\[00:48:39\]](#transcript-00-48-39-775) I mean, that's it for any of us, right?

[\[00:48:40\]](#transcript-00-48-40-776) What am I resting at the end of the day?

[\[00:48:42\]](#transcript-00-48-42-777) I mean, am I, am I, if I say to myself, I've had somebody say this to me, somebody close to me, actually.

[\[00:48:46\]](#transcript-00-48-46-778) Yeah, I don't, I mean, I said to them, God loves you.

[\[00:48:48\]](#transcript-00-48-48-779) There's nothing you can do about it.

[\[00:48:50\]](#transcript-00-48-50-780) Yeah, well, whatever.

[\[00:48:51\]](#transcript-00-48-51-781) I don't need that.

[\[00:48:53\]](#transcript-00-48-53-782) Right.

[\[00:48:54\]](#transcript-00-48-54-783) And you just go, okay, well, ultimately, let's break this down.

[\[00:48:57\]](#transcript-00-48-57-784) You're resting in something.

[\[00:48:58\]](#transcript-00-48-58-785) Yeah.

[\[00:48:59\]](#transcript-00-48-59-786) You could be resting in your good works.

[\[00:49:00\]](#transcript-00-49-00-787) You could be resting in your church attendance, your baptism, whatever it may be.

[\[00:49:03\]](#transcript-00-49-03-788) I mean, strictly, like

[\[00:49:06\]](#transcript-00-49-06-789) any one thing that you've checked off the box, and you go, I'm good.

[\[00:49:09\]](#transcript-00-49-09-790) I don't need to do anything else.

[\[00:49:11\]](#transcript-00-49-11-791) It also could be your just simple belief, the lie you're believing that God doesn't expect any more than that out of me.

[\[00:49:20\]](#transcript-00-49-20-792) And so, if that resting point is anything other than Christ and him crucified, you are in the wrong place.

[\[00:49:27\]](#transcript-00-49-27-793) And that's a message that I think is not as salient.

[\[00:49:31\]](#transcript-00-49-31-794) It needs to be more clear.

[\[00:49:33\]](#transcript-00-49-33-795) And it's a challenge because there's, like I say, ditches on both sides.

[\[00:49:37\]](#transcript-00-49-37-796) Yeah.

[\[00:49:37\]](#transcript-00-49-37-797) And I know what you're getting at, too, because, like, in the Wesleyan slash, you know, big box Baptist churches, it's, did you raise your hand if you want to be saved?

[\[00:49:45\]](#transcript-00-49-45-798) And it's the raising of the hand, it's the decision.

[\[00:49:47\]](#transcript-00-49-47-799) Like, I decided, you know, this is the reprogram that happens a lot, even at our church when we have to do baptism classes.

[\[00:49:55\]](#transcript-00-49-55-800) Is that we have to tell people baptism has nothing to do about you deciding to follow Jesus.

[\[00:49:59\]](#transcript-00-49-59-801) Like, I know that's what you've been taught.

[\[00:50:01\]](#transcript-00-50-01-802) Like, you know, the church, everybody gets the shirt, I have decided, but it's it, you know, some people are kind of shocked.

[\[00:50:07\]](#transcript-00-50-07-803) Like, why do you guys take so long to baptize people, especially children?

[\[00:50:11\]](#transcript-00-50-11-804) And it's because most of the time, if they haven't been raised in our church, and they've been raised somewhere else or not in church at all, they don't know other than what they've seen on YouTube or what, and

[\[00:50:21\]](#transcript-00-50-21-805) it's just this big celebration moment.

[\[00:50:23\]](#transcript-00-50-23-806) But we would consider baptism to be far, far more than that.

[\[00:50:27\]](#transcript-00-50-27-807) And it's not about what you have done for Christ.

[\[00:50:29\]](#transcript-00-50-29-808) We would call it a sacrament.

[\[00:50:30\]](#transcript-00-50-30-809) We'd call it a grace, something that comes to you.

[\[00:50:33\]](#transcript-00-50-33-810) Doug, I want to go back to something because we're running out of time here.

[\[00:50:35\]](#transcript-00-50-35-811) I want to go back to something you said and, um, and then I'm going to poke fun at you for a little bit and then so you could get ready for this one.

[\[00:50:47\]](#transcript-00-50-47-812) So, what's interesting about you're talking about like being something that's old.

[\[00:50:52\]](#transcript-00-50-52-813) What people are discovering is that

[\[00:50:57\]](#transcript-00-50-57-814) whatever has been handed to them in this novelty, in this new like Jay prayer, prayer of Jabez, the you know, the Daniel diet, whatever else that's out there, the 40 days of this, the 40 days of that.

[\[00:51:07\]](#transcript-00-51-07-815) Wow, that daniel.

[\[00:51:08\]](#transcript-00-51-08-816) Oh, my goodness.

[\[00:51:09\]](#transcript-00-51-09-817) Wow.

[\[00:51:10\]](#transcript-00-51-10-818) I grew up down the street from, or down the road from that guy.

[\[00:51:14\]](#transcript-00-51-14-819) Anyways, what's happening is that

[\[00:51:18\]](#transcript-00-51-18-820) their soul is longing for that sacredness that feels attached to something that is not novel anymore.

[\[00:51:26\]](#transcript-00-51-26-821) Like there is a shift back.

[\[00:51:28\]](#transcript-00-51-28-822) I mean, classic cars, classic music, classic coal, you know, clothes.

[\[00:51:32\]](#transcript-00-51-32-823) Everything's, you know, my daughter loves all the classic stuff because there's something that feels rooted and connected to it.

[\[00:51:39\]](#transcript-00-51-39-824) That's not what we're saying.

[\[00:51:40\]](#transcript-00-51-40-825) We're not saying there's a nostalgia for old theology.

[\[00:51:45\]](#transcript-00-51-45-826) There's a difference between this has been tried and true and tested by time.

[\[00:51:51\]](#transcript-00-51-51-827) You know, you and I are both creedal.

[\[00:51:54\]](#transcript-00-51-54-828) We would believe that the creeds that were established were established for the reasons that you have false doctrines and people being led astray by Arian theology and by counter gospel theology and that the creeds were designed to solidify

[\[00:52:10\]](#transcript-00-52-10-829) and create a, this is what we confess to be true of Christianity, right?

[\[00:52:15\]](#transcript-00-52-15-830) So historically, confessional churches, Baptist, Presbyterian, Reformed, Lutheran, are creedal at their core, and the creeds also teach us that our sole substance of where we learn these truths is from scripture.

[\[00:52:30\]](#transcript-00-52-30-831) And then that leads to confessionalism.

[\[00:52:33\]](#transcript-00-52-33-832) And the reason why the Reformed Confessions and the Lutheran Confessions are so powerful is that they agree.

[\[00:52:40\]](#transcript-00-52-40-833) This is where I love this.

[\[00:52:42\]](#transcript-00-52-42-834) They agree on who is Christ and what is Christ for you.

[\[00:52:46\]](#transcript-00-52-46-835) Now, we might differ on what I would call ecclesiastical Classical And Rule of rule of rule of law.

[\[00:52:54\]](#transcript-00-52-54-836) Like, how are we going to function as a church?

[\[00:52:57\]](#transcript-00-52-57-837) Those are such low levels that does not matter, which is why I can partner with so many people as I do.

[\[00:53:03\]](#transcript-00-53-03-838) But when it comes down to the point of this podcast, the point of your podcast, which is who is Christ for you, for far past the reformers, all the way back to the creeds, we have seen there is

[\[00:53:18\]](#transcript-00-53-18-839) a consistency that one is assured of who they are based upon what Christ has done.

[\[00:53:24\]](#transcript-00-53-24-840) He is the substance, he's the object, not ourselves.

[\[00:53:28\]](#transcript-00-53-28-841) And that's where people are feeling this.

[\[00:53:30\]](#transcript-00-53-30-842) They're feeling it on the radio.

[\[00:53:32\]](#transcript-00-53-32-843) They're feeling it in their churches.

[\[00:53:33\]](#transcript-00-53-33-844) Be better, be better, be better.

[\[00:53:34\]](#transcript-00-53-34-845) I can't be better.

[\[00:53:36\]](#transcript-00-53-36-846) So, unfortunately, this is not a podcast about this.

[\[00:53:38\]](#transcript-00-53-38-847) They're going back to more ancient things like Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy.

[\[00:53:44\]](#transcript-00-53-44-848) And what they're finding is new law just covered in what I would say retro theology.

[\[00:53:51\]](#transcript-00-53-51-849) And a whole lot more of it.

[\[00:53:53\]](#transcript-00-53-53-850) Yeah.

[\[00:53:54\]](#transcript-00-53-54-851) Like all law.

[\[00:53:56\]](#transcript-00-53-56-852) Yeah.

[\[00:53:57\]](#transcript-00-53-57-853) Nostalgic for something that is old, but unfortunately, it's just old law.

[\[00:54:00\]](#transcript-00-54-00-854) It's such a great point.

[\[00:54:01\]](#transcript-00-54-01-855) And I think that, yes, you know, and by the way, just cards on the table with our podcast, indeed, we are exactly about what you said.

[\[00:54:08\]](#transcript-00-54-08-856) About we are making it pretty plain that we do believe confessional Lutheranism is a fantastic option for those who are open to it.

[\[00:54:17\]](#transcript-00-54-17-857) So we do, we don't disguise that, but just that little slide right there.

[\[00:54:22\]](#transcript-00-54-22-858) But I would say that because I just love what you say there so much, what we're really getting back to, I'll tell you, this will be best expressed in a short story.

[\[00:54:31\]](#transcript-00-54-31-859) At the previous job, I was at, we spent a lot of money hiring a national researcher to study the tastes of young adults between 18 and 28 who were what were called faithful.

[\[00:54:40\]](#transcript-00-54-40-860) They attended church.

[\[00:54:41\]](#transcript-00-54-41-861) Now, we didn't drill too deeply into what that meant.

[\[00:54:44\]](#transcript-00-54-44-862) It's just self-selected.

[\[00:54:46\]](#transcript-00-54-46-863) We asked them a question: Do you attend church at least three times a month?

[\[00:54:49\]](#transcript-00-54-49-864) They said yes.

[\[00:54:50\]](#transcript-00-54-50-865) And so we filtered through all of that and brought them in and did a focus group, two focus groups with a moderator.

[\[00:54:56\]](#transcript-00-54-56-866) And what we were trying to do was create new Christian content specifically for these people.

[\[00:55:00\]](#transcript-00-55-00-867) So it was for sure biblically based, but fresh, something that, you know, was not what we already had.

[\[00:55:07\]](#transcript-00-55-07-868) What are their needs?

[\[00:55:08\]](#transcript-00-55-08-869) What do they want?

[\[00:55:09\]](#transcript-00-55-09-870) The thing that emerged out of all of that, which ties exactly into what you're talking about, was this strong desire on all of these people that are under 30 for truth.

[\[00:55:18\]](#transcript-00-55-18-871) Truth.

[\[00:55:19\]](#transcript-00-55-19-872) Now, what is truth?

[\[00:55:21\]](#transcript-00-55-21-873) And who gets to make the claim that something is true.

[\[00:55:26\]](#transcript-00-55-26-874) That's something that they didn't all agree on, but they all agreed that what they've been taught by this culture and with AI, they don't know that they can believe it.

[\[00:55:34\]](#transcript-00-55-34-875) So I think there's that, you're tapping into what you're talking about, that search for something that really gets back.

[\[00:55:39\]](#transcript-00-55-39-876) There's an edge that needs to be scratched.

[\[00:55:41\]](#transcript-00-55-41-877) And some are going to the smells and bells and the traditions, and they'll find that to be okay, maybe.

[\[00:55:46\]](#transcript-00-55-46-878) But what they really are looking for is: okay, what do I hang my hat on at the end of the day.

[\[00:55:50\]](#transcript-00-55-50-879) What can I go?

[\[00:55:51\]](#transcript-00-55-51-880) I believe this because this is the truth, and that is Christ and him alone.

[\[00:55:58\]](#transcript-00-55-58-881) And so that's, you know, I just, it keeps coming back to that.

[\[00:56:01\]](#transcript-00-56-01-882) And we just find so many ways to depart from it.

[\[00:56:04\]](#transcript-00-56-04-883) Me too.

[\[00:56:05\]](#transcript-00-56-05-884) I mean, I do it all the time.

[\[00:56:06\]](#transcript-00-56-06-885) Yeah.

[\[00:56:07\]](#transcript-00-56-07-886) Yeah.

[\[00:56:07\]](#transcript-00-56-07-887) If your tradition doesn't emphasize Christ for you, then you might want to reconsider your tradition.

[\[00:56:15\]](#transcript-00-56-15-888) Right.

[\[00:56:15\]](#transcript-00-56-15-889) I mean, really.

[\[00:56:17\]](#transcript-00-56-17-890) And if you don't have much of a tradition, but it still emphasizes.

[\[00:56:20\]](#transcript-00-56-20-891) No, I shouldn't say might.

[\[00:56:21\]](#transcript-00-56-21-892) It said you need to reconsider your tradition.

[\[00:56:23\]](#transcript-00-56-23-893) Right.

[\[00:56:24\]](#transcript-00-56-24-894) You really should.

[\[00:56:25\]](#transcript-00-56-25-895) Yeah.

[\[00:56:26\]](#transcript-00-56-26-896) It's such a, it's so, isn't it crazy?

[\[00:56:30\]](#transcript-00-56-30-897) We're the cheese are right there on the floor, and we can reach through the bars and let ourselves out and we stay locked in for a lot of reasons.

[\[00:56:37\]](#transcript-00-56-37-898) Yeah, well, as Luther well documented, he believed in the power of Satan, and this is, I just, I think this is how he does it.

[\[00:56:43\]](#transcript-00-56-43-899) Like, we assume, oh, demonic Hollywood, heads turning, evil things.

[\[00:56:49\]](#transcript-00-56-49-900) Uh, no, he is the liar, he is the destroyer, and so what does he do?

[\[00:56:52\]](#transcript-00-56-52-901) He lies to us, he deceives us.

[\[00:56:54\]](#transcript-00-56-54-902) And the thing is, we always assume we would catch the lie.

[\[00:56:57\]](#transcript-00-56-57-903) And yet, you and I have lived the lie where we have believed things that are counter to the gospel.

[\[00:57:03\]](#transcript-00-57-03-904) And now we can look back by God's grace through the freedom of Christ and the power of Christ, look back and say, Man, I believe the lie.

[\[00:57:09\]](#transcript-00-57-09-905) That wasn't the folk.

[\[00:57:10\]](#transcript-00-57-10-906) That wasn't even true.

[\[00:57:11\]](#transcript-00-57-11-907) And what's interesting, I'll close with this.

[\[00:57:13\]](#transcript-00-57-13-908) I'm going to ask you a question, but every time Satan confronted Jesus, he quoted scripture.

[\[00:57:20\]](#transcript-00-57-20-909) He just took it out of context.

[\[00:57:23\]](#transcript-00-57-23-910) And that's what he's so good to do.

[\[00:57:24\]](#transcript-00-57-24-911) And this is what has happened for so long.

[\[00:57:27\]](#transcript-00-57-27-912) The thing is, that people forget the guy has had, this created being has had thousands of years of practice.

[\[00:57:33\]](#transcript-00-57-33-913) You've had about you know 50 years

[\[00:57:37\]](#transcript-00-57-37-914) and not very good ones, yeah, right.

[\[00:57:39\]](#transcript-00-57-39-915) All right, so uh, everybody, there was like this ironic moment, and I know the answer to this, but I'm going to throw it to you, anyways, because it's just funny.

[\[00:57:47\]](#transcript-00-57-47-916) You're like, I am of Apollos, am I of this?

[\[00:57:50\]](#transcript-00-57-50-917) And then yet you say, I'm Lutheran, right?

[\[00:57:52\]](#transcript-00-57-52-918) And everybody was like, wait a minute, you're saying you're of Luther.

[\[00:57:56\]](#transcript-00-57-56-919) Right.

[\[00:57:56\]](#transcript-00-57-56-920) Yeah, that's that's always the good clot back.

[\[00:57:58\]](#transcript-00-57-58-921) Yeah.

[\[00:57:59\]](#transcript-00-57-59-922) Right.

[\[00:57:59\]](#transcript-00-57-59-923) So, uh, as a good Lutheran, the response to that is: Are you just of Luther?

[\[00:58:05\]](#transcript-00-58-05-924) Oh my goodness.

[\[00:58:06\]](#transcript-00-58-06-925) I mean, it couldn't possibly be less true.

[\[00:58:08\]](#transcript-00-58-08-926) And here's the thing, okay?

[\[00:58:10\]](#transcript-00-58-10-927) Um, because I mean, I believe that a little bit myself when I first started what this is all about.

[\[00:58:16\]](#transcript-00-58-16-928) And so my only real response to that as a layperson, not a pastor, not someone who's equipped for a lot of church history knowledge here.

[\[00:58:24\]](#transcript-00-58-24-929) But when I go back to, I just ask, what was Luther trying to do?

[\[00:58:29\]](#transcript-00-58-29-930) Beginning.

[\[00:58:30\]](#transcript-00-58-30-931) What was he trying to do?

[\[00:58:31\]](#transcript-00-58-31-932) Of course, get us back to the scripture, get us back to faith alone, you know, the solace.

[\[00:58:40\]](#transcript-00-58-40-933) And so, when he took the stand that he took, one of the things he never wanted to do was leave the church, he wanted to reform it.

[\[00:58:46\]](#transcript-00-58-46-934) That's right.

[\[00:58:47\]](#transcript-00-58-47-935) That's not what happened.

[\[00:58:48\]](#transcript-00-58-48-936) And I, he, and I think a lot of people know this, but I'll say it for those who don't.

[\[00:58:53\]](#transcript-00-58-53-937) He never wanted the church that ended up starting because of this to be called Lutheran.

[\[00:58:57\]](#transcript-00-58-57-938) He never wanted that.

[\[00:58:58\]](#transcript-00-58-58-939) And in other parts of the world, they don't call it that, they call it the evangelical church.

[\[00:59:02\]](#transcript-00-59-02-940) But I think that at the end of the day, because he did so much for Christianity, we talk and teach and speak of what he did and wrote for us.

[\[00:59:20\]](#transcript-00-59-20-941) But at the end of the day, we're just getting what we get back to what he talked about, what he wrote about Christ.

[\[00:59:26\]](#transcript-00-59-26-942) And just as an aside, one of the things I do love dearly about Luther, and that I am happy to embrace that name, was the way he just didn't, he just said things so plainly and with his humor.

[\[00:59:37\]](#transcript-00-59-37-943) And it was, you know, he was sometimes harsh.

[\[00:59:40\]](#transcript-00-59-40-944) And, you know, I'm sure he went too far in many instances, but it was also like, I don't know, in polite southern evangelical culture, I like people who shoot straight.

[\[00:59:48\]](#transcript-00-59-48-945) And he did.

[\[00:59:49\]](#transcript-00-59-49-946) So it took guts.

[\[00:59:51\]](#transcript-00-59-51-947) So, yeah, so we are not of Luther.

[\[00:59:53\]](#transcript-00-59-53-948) The confessions make that clear.

[\[00:59:54\]](#transcript-00-59-54-949) And if you're curious about that, read the Lutheran Confessions and it makes it abundantly clear.

[\[00:59:58\]](#transcript-00-59-58-950) That's true.

[\[00:59:59\]](#transcript-00-59-59-951) Yeah, because people will tell me that, well, you're a Calvinist or you're of John Calvin.

[\[01:00:02\]](#transcript-01-00-02-952) And I'm like, well, no, that's not quite how that works, but that's fine.

[\[01:00:05\]](#transcript-01-00-05-953) No, and this is where, you know, people will say, well, I just know no creed but Christ, or you know, I don't need a confession, I just have my Bible.

[\[01:00:12\]](#transcript-01-00-12-954) And we don't disagree with you.

[\[01:00:14\]](#transcript-01-00-14-955) I think that you just have to answer the question: what about the Bible do you believe?

[\[01:00:18\]](#transcript-01-00-18-956) And what is your creed?

[\[01:00:19\]](#transcript-01-00-19-957) Because everybody has one.

[\[01:00:21\]](#transcript-01-00-21-958) And that's not what this podcast is about.

[\[01:00:22\]](#transcript-01-00-22-959) But I just thought I'd throw that out there because I know somebody was thinking it.

[\[01:00:25\]](#transcript-01-00-25-960) And I thought, I'm going to give Doug the opportunity to explain that it's not the same thing.

[\[01:00:29\]](#transcript-01-00-29-961) It's not.

[\[01:00:29\]](#transcript-01-00-29-962) And you know what?

[\[01:00:30\]](#transcript-01-00-30-963) Here's the thing: if I did think that, I'd come, I'd probably be feisty for it.

[\[01:00:34\]](#transcript-01-00-34-964) I come by it honestly because truth is, I've put my name on lesser things.

[\[01:00:40\]](#transcript-01-00-40-965) I'm this.

[\[01:00:41\]](#transcript-01-00-41-966) So, but in fact, no, no, there you go.

[\[01:00:45\]](#transcript-01-00-45-967) There you go.

[\[01:00:46\]](#transcript-01-00-46-968) Well, and then, well, how can a Baptist and a Lutheran get along?

[\[01:00:49\]](#transcript-01-00-49-969) Well, you just found out because we both want you to rest in Jesus Christ.

[\[01:00:54\]](#transcript-01-00-54-970) And it's interesting.

[\[01:00:55\]](#transcript-01-00-55-971) Theocast, you know, I am obviously from the Reformed Baptist tradition, but we have helped many people, no matter what city they're in, if they're near a church that preached Christ for them, that's where I want them to end

[\[01:01:07\]](#transcript-01-01-07-972) up.

[\[01:01:08\]](#transcript-01-01-08-973) And there are a lot of Lutherans and Presbyterians and even Anglicans that have come from this podcast.

[\[01:01:14\]](#transcript-01-01-14-974) And I'm super thankful for it because at the end of the day, they're no longer resting in themselves, but they're resting in Christ.

[\[01:01:20\]](#transcript-01-01-20-975) And hopefully, one day your podcast and mine will be irrelevant, and these will no longer be needed, but until then, we'll keep putting it out.

[\[01:01:28\]](#transcript-01-01-28-976) So, Doug, if they wanted to learn more about what you're doing, where can they go?

[\[01:01:31\]](#transcript-01-01-31-977) We're in the middle of a domain name change.

[\[01:01:33\]](#transcript-01-01-33-978) So, let's go with this one: anchoredpod.org.

[\[01:01:36\]](#transcript-01-01-36-979) It's the current web address.

[\[01:01:39\]](#transcript-01-01-39-980) There are a surprisingly high number of podcasts on YouTube and out there called Anchored in Christ, but we are on YouTube as Anchored in Christ.

[\[01:01:45\]](#transcript-01-01-45-981) And I think we're at the point now where we're the first one you find.

[\[01:01:47\]](#transcript-01-01-47-982) Our new name is going to be anchoredinchrist.org.

[\[01:01:51\]](#transcript-01-01-51-983) And so, yes, check it out.

[\[01:01:53\]](#transcript-01-01-53-984) YouTube shorts are all over the place, which is often a good way to get into it.

[\[01:01:56\]](#transcript-01-01-56-985) It's not just me, it's my pastor, Kurt Hoover, and myself.

[\[01:01:58\]](#transcript-01-01-58-986) We co-host it together.

[\[01:02:00\]](#transcript-01-02-00-987) And he teaches us through the basics of Christian belief and walks people like maybe your audience to a certain degree that, yeah, I believe in what Jesus is talking about, but what's this gospel thing?

[\[01:02:11\]](#transcript-01-02-11-988) What's the Bible really all about?

[\[01:02:12\]](#transcript-01-02-12-989) That's good.

[\[01:02:13\]](#transcript-01-02-13-990) And for me, as somebody who found so much clarity in this stuff by coming to Lutheranism.

[\[01:02:19\]](#transcript-01-02-19-991) I'm just trying to turn that light bulb on for others because I'm not a lifer with this stuff.

[\[01:02:23\]](#transcript-01-02-23-992) Most of the people who go to my church, they've been Lutherans their whole life.

[\[01:02:25\]](#transcript-01-02-25-993) And for me, it's fresh and new, and I'm excited and anchored in Christ.org, or if you will, anchored pod.org.

[\[01:02:33\]](#transcript-01-02-33-994) Yeah, thanks, Doug.

[\[01:02:34\]](#transcript-01-02-34-995) Well, thanks for coming on.

[\[01:02:35\]](#transcript-01-02-35-996) What a fun podcast.

[\[01:02:36\]](#transcript-01-02-36-997) Thanks for sharing your story and being vulnerable with us.

[\[01:02:39\]](#transcript-01-02-39-998) And hopefully this was encouraging for you that were listening.

[\[01:02:42\]](#transcript-01-02-42-999) And yeah, go subscribe to Doug's podcast.

[\[01:02:46\]](#transcript-01-02-46-1000) I think you guys are on YouTube.

[\[01:02:48\]](#transcript-01-02-48-1001) Yeah, you're on YouTube.

[\[01:02:49\]](#transcript-01-02-49-1002) So go over there and subscribe.

[\[01:02:51\]](#transcript-01-02-51-1003) And you can get it wherever you get your fine podcasts.

[\[01:02:53\]](#transcript-01-02-53-1004) I'm also on Sirius XM weekends and filling in on the message channel 78.

[\[01:02:59\]](#transcript-01-02-59-1005) So if you want to, if you subscribe and you want to listen to that, you'll hear me.

[\[01:03:02\]](#transcript-01-03-02-1006) There you go.

[\[01:03:03\]](#transcript-01-03-03-1007) Thanks, brother.

[\[01:03:04\]](#transcript-01-03-04-1008) Thank you.

[\[01:03:05\]](#transcript-01-03-05-1009) Hey, guys, real quick.

[\[01:03:06\]](#transcript-01-03-06-1010) Some of you are listening to this, and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[01:03:10\]](#transcript-01-03-10-1011) So, where do you go?

[\[01:03:11\]](#transcript-01-03-11-1012) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[01:03:16\]](#transcript-01-03-16-1013) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers.

[\[01:03:22\]](#transcript-01-03-22-1014) All of our resources are there: past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[01:03:30\]](#transcript-01-03-30-1015) You can go check it out.

[\[01:03:31\]](#transcript-01-03-31-1016) The link is in the description below.

---

### What's Missing??? (The Bible Recap Podcast)

*Published: September 2, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/whats-missing-the-bible-recap-podcast*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/T1ZkbRPDAZ4)

What does one of the world's most popular Bible podcasts think is the biggest problem facing the church? Jon Moffitt examines The Bible Recap's perspective on what is going wrong in churches today. The conversation explores how the Bible is preached, how preaching can go wrong, and what faithful biblical preaching should look like. The central question is simple: Are churches actually preaching the Bible the way Scripture calls them to?

* What The Bible Recap sees as the church’s biggest problem
* How the Bible is preached—and how preaching can go wrong
* What faithful biblical preaching should look like
* Whether churches are preaching Scripture the way it calls them to

* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Family: Grace in the Grind (w/ Scott Keith from 1517)

*Published: August 26, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/family-grace-in-the-grind-w-scott-keith-from-1517*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/JfBPFod56EU)

Why does parenting so often leave Christians feeling exhausted, guilty, and inadequate? Jon Moffitt sits down with Scott Keith to discuss his new book and a better way to think about raising children. Together, they explore practical wisdom for teaching right and wrong while leading children with grace, kindness, forgiveness, and peace. The conversation challenges both harsh legalism and permissive parenting, pointing families toward Christ and the freedom of the gospel.

* Why parenting so often leaves Christians exhausted and guilty
* Teaching right and wrong while leading with grace and forgiveness
* Challenging both harsh legalism and permissive parenting
* Pointing families toward Christ and the freedom of the gospel with Scott Keith

* [Being Family](https://shop.1517.org/products/9781964419961-being-family) — Scott Keith — passing down faith through the generations
* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### The Devil's Door to the Church - Part 2: The Remedy (w/ Doug Van Dorn from Reformed Fringe)

*Published: August 19, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-devils-door-to-the-church-part-2-the-remedy-w-doug-van-dorn-from-reformed-fringe*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/O5LC3JXvZoQ)

Why do Christians often look for dramatic spiritual warfare while overlooking the power of the gospel? Jon Moffitt sits down with Doug Van Dorn to examine how Satan can distort the church's understanding of spiritual strength. They discuss how believers can become distracted from the gospel and why pastors must remain committed to preaching Christ. The conversation calls the church back to the gospel as the true source of strength and hope.

* Looking for dramatic spiritual warfare while overlooking the gospel
* How Satan can distort the church’s understanding of spiritual strength
* Why pastors must stay committed to preaching Christ
* The gospel as the church’s true source of strength and hope

* [Part 1 on Reformed Fringe](https://www.youtube.com/@reformedfringe) — Doug Van Dorn's podcast
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Abortion: A Spiritual Battle (w/ Jackie Moffitt)

*Published: August 12, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/abortion-a-spiritual-battle-w-jackie-moffitt*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/dXkFy-LDIM8)

What does the gospel have to say in one of the darkest battles of our time? Jon Moffitt is joined by Jackie Moffitt, who has spent nearly four decades rescuing men and women from the tragedy of abortion and proclaiming the hope of Christ. Together they examine the spiritual realities behind abortion, the value of every human life, and the mercy God offers to those burdened by guilt and shame. This honest conversation points beyond despair to the forgiveness, healing, and redemption found in the gospel.

* What the gospel says in one of the darkest battles of our time
* Spiritual realities behind abortion and the value of every human life
* Mercy for those burdened by guilt and shame
* Forgiveness, healing, and redemption found in Christ with Jackie Moffitt

* [Friends of the Women's Center](https://friendsofthewc.org/) — Jackie Moffitt's women's center
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### What's Driving You?

*Published: August 5, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/whats-driving-you*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/44Jwj4bxnT8)

What is really driving your life? Jon Moffitt explores the deeper motives behind obedience, sin, ambition, and everyday decisions, revealing why behavior is always rooted in the heart. Rather than calling for more effort, this conversation uncovers how God's grace transforms the desires that shape everything you do. Discover why the gospel does more than change your actions. It changes what you love.

* The deeper motives behind obedience, sin, ambition, and everyday decisions
* Why behavior is always rooted in the heart
* How God’s grace transforms desires rather than calling for more effort
* The gospel changing what you love, not only what you do

* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Speaking in Tongues? (w/ Michael Miller from Remnant Radio)

*Published: July 29, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/speaking-in-tongues-w-michael-miller-from-remnant-radio*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/3Z19hwUYB7o)

Can Christians disagree on spiritual gifts without dividing over the gospel? Jon Moffitt welcomes Michael Miller from Remnant Radio for a thoughtful conversation about tongues, the continuation of spiritual gifts, and the history that has shaped both of their perspectives. While approaching the topic from different viewpoints, they model how Christian brothers can sharpen one another with humility, conviction, and love. Discover what faithful disagreement looks like when Christ and the gospel remain at the center.

* Disagreeing on spiritual gifts without dividing over the gospel
* Tongues, continuation of gifts, and the history that shaped both views
* Modeling humility, conviction, and love across different perspectives
* Faithful disagreement when Christ and the gospel remain central

* [Remnant Radio](https://www.theremnantradio.com/)
* [Overcomer's Journal](https://overcomersjournal.com/)
* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Where Are All The Pastors???

*Published: July 22, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/where-are-all-the-pastors*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/5XuiRmNxDno)

Why are so many churches struggling to find faithful pastors? Jon Moffitt examines the growing pastoral shortage, why ministers are leaving the pastorate, and what this trend reveals about the state of the church. Rather than settling for discouragement, this conversation offers a biblical vision for raising up healthy leaders and strengthening local congregations. Every believer has a role to play in the life and mission of Christ's church.

* Why so many churches struggle to find faithful pastors
* Why ministers are leaving the pastorate
* A biblical vision for raising up healthy leaders
* Every believer’s role in the life and mission of Christ’s church

* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Biblically Correct. Stranger to Jesus.

*Published: July 15, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/biblically-correct-stranger-to-jesus*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/EED03aFvhlw)

Can you know the Bible and still completely miss Christ? Jon Moffitt examines Jesus' warning in John 5 that it is possible to know Scripture while remaining distant from the Savior it reveals. This honest conversation explores the danger of being theologically correct but spiritually prideful, especially in today's online Christian culture. Discover why knowledge without Christ leads to empty religion, and how the gospel calls believers to humility, grace, and true fellowship with Him.

* Jesus’ warning in John 5: knowing Scripture while missing Christ
* The danger of being theologically correct but spiritually prideful
* Why knowledge without Christ leads to empty religion
* Humility, grace, and true fellowship with the Savior Scripture reveals

* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### No Longer Reformed... But Still Reforming

*Published: July 8, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/no-longer-reformed-but-still-reforming*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/uk1Z5Vp0Jbw)

What if the biggest problem with the Reformed movement is not its theology, but its attitude? Jon Moffitt explains why the culture surrounding modern Reformed circles often fails to reflect the grace it proclaims. This conversation calls believers to repentance, humility, and a gospel-shaped way of engaging others.

* When Reformed culture fails to reflect the grace it proclaims
* Attitude as a problem even when theology is sound
* A call to repentance, humility, and gospel-shaped engagement

* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### The Father You Can Finally Trust

*Published: July 1, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-father-you-can-finally-trust*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/A0Fqs-yckVk)

What comes to mind when you hear God called Father? Jon Moffitt explores why your understanding of God should never be shaped primarily by your earthly father, whether that experience was good or painful. Scripture redefines what it means for God to be your Father, revealing a love and faithfulness unlike anything found in this world. Just as the Bible reshapes our understanding of love, it also transforms the meaning of fatherhood. This conversation offers biblical hope and clarity for anyone wrestling with the idea of God as Father.

* Why God as Father should not be shaped mainly by your earthly father
* How Scripture redefines fatherhood with love and faithfulness
* Biblical hope for those with painful or mixed father experiences
* Letting the Bible transform the meaning of “Father” the way it reshapes love

* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:01\]](#transcript-00-00-01-1) When someone says, God, your father, we tend to filter that word through our experience, whether it's good or bad, through our own dads.

[\[00:00:08\]](#transcript-00-00-08-2) And I'm here to argue, don't do that.

[\[00:00:11\]](#transcript-00-00-11-3) I don't care how good your dad was, it's never a good image of who God really is.

[\[00:00:16\]](#transcript-00-00-16-4) And if your father, you didn't have one, you don't know who he is, or he was horrible.

[\[00:00:20\]](#transcript-00-00-20-5) God redefines this relationship.

[\[00:00:23\]](#transcript-00-00-23-6) He actually defines it properly.

[\[00:00:25\]](#transcript-00-00-25-7) Just like we need to redefine the word love, don't let the world do that because most of the time it's just sensual.

[\[00:00:31\]](#transcript-00-00-31-8) We need to redefine the word father and the relationship as it relates to our God.

[\[00:00:35\]](#transcript-00-00-35-9) I promise you, this will encourage you, especially if you struggle with the word or the concept of a dad or a father.

[\[00:00:40\]](#transcript-00-00-40-10) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:42\]](#transcript-00-00-42-11) Ever read the Bible and walk away feeling like you're failing?

[\[00:00:45\]](#transcript-00-00-45-12) No matter how hard you try, you're never measuring up.

[\[00:00:48\]](#transcript-00-00-48-13) That's not a motivation problem, that's a reading problem.

[\[00:00:51\]](#transcript-00-00-51-14) Most people have never been taught how to read the Bible the way Jesus taught it.

[\[00:00:56\]](#transcript-00-00-56-15) So when they hear things like, be perfect, deny yourself, take up your cross, they assume it's all about trying harder.

[\[00:01:03\]](#transcript-00-01-03-16) But what if that's not what Jesus was doing at all?

[\[00:01:05\]](#transcript-00-01-05-17) What if the law isn't meant to fix you, but to reveal your need for a savior?

[\[00:01:10\]](#transcript-00-01-10-18) And what if the gospel isn't advice, but an announcement of what Christ has already done for you?

[\[00:01:16\]](#transcript-00-01-16-19) That's the difference between law and gospel.

[\[00:01:19\]](#transcript-00-01-19-20) And once you see it, everything changes.

[\[00:01:21\]](#transcript-00-01-21-21) Clarity, rest, and confidence.

[\[00:01:23\]](#transcript-00-01-23-22) In the Bible, according to Jesus, I show you how to read scripture the way Jesus intended.

[\[00:01:29\]](#transcript-00-01-29-23) So you stop feeling crushed and confused, and start living with confidence and rest in Christ.

[\[00:01:35\]](#transcript-00-01-35-24) You can get your copy of the book at theocast.org.

[\[00:01:53\]](#transcript-00-01-53-25) Welcome back to another episode of Theocast.

[\[00:01:55\]](#transcript-00-01-55-26) I'm Moffitt.

[\[00:01:55\]](#transcript-00-01-55-27) I'm your host, I'm the pastor of Grace Reform Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:02:00\]](#transcript-00-02-00-28) And if this is your first time listening, we're so glad you're here.

[\[00:02:02\]](#transcript-00-02-02-29) You can learn more about Theocast at theocast.org.

[\[00:02:05\]](#transcript-00-02-05-30) We have articles, other podcasts, videos, books, two new books that are over there.

[\[00:02:10\]](#transcript-00-02-10-31) This one came out earlier this year: The Bible According to Jesus.

[\[00:02:14\]](#transcript-00-02-14-32) If you want to know how to study the Bible to find rest and joy, and an introduction to covenant theology, that's what this would be.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-33) I encourage you to grab that.

[\[00:02:22\]](#transcript-00-02-22-34) And then enough in Christ.

[\[00:02:24\]](#transcript-00-02-24-35) It's free for you.

[\[00:02:25\]](#transcript-00-02-25-36) You can have it, but if you'd like to read it on paperback, you can go to Amazon or our website.

[\[00:02:31\]](#transcript-00-02-31-37) They're available there.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-38) And let's go ahead and jump into today's subject.

[\[00:02:36\]](#transcript-00-02-36-39) This topic means a lot to me.

[\[00:02:39\]](#transcript-00-02-39-40) I've been thinking about it for a while, and a recent conversation finally pushed me to say, I got to do this.

[\[00:02:47\]](#transcript-00-02-47-41) I got to do this episode.

[\[00:02:49\]](#transcript-00-02-49-42) We're about to have Father's Day for you.

[\[00:02:51\]](#transcript-00-02-51-43) Father's Day has already passed, so you're already thinking about this.

[\[00:02:54\]](#transcript-00-02-54-44) And the subject of God as our Father has

[\[00:03:01\]](#transcript-00-03-01-45) bothered me for a long time Long time because I think without realizing it, we fall into the heresy of humanizing our divine God, who we love, we end up humanizing him in a way that is extremely dangerous.

[\[00:03:22\]](#transcript-00-03-22-46) As it relates to Jesus, Jesus is a fully God and fully man.

[\[00:03:26\]](#transcript-00-03-26-47) This is not what this is about.

[\[00:03:27\]](#transcript-00-03-27-48) I don't want to fall into a heresy where we're kind of disconnecting the humanity of Christ from Himself.

[\[00:03:33\]](#transcript-00-03-33-49) That's not what I mean.

[\[00:03:34\]](#transcript-00-03-34-50) I mean the relationship, this idea that God the Father is our Father.

[\[00:03:40\]](#transcript-00-03-40-51) That's the relationship that I'm talking about.

[\[00:03:42\]](#transcript-00-03-42-52) And our relationship to Him is important, and that we don't project upon Him the human failings.

[\[00:03:48\]](#transcript-00-03-48-53) Now, when it comes to Jesus, I would say this is true as well, because Jesus is not governed by our limitations as far as our sin and how we are controlled by sin.

[\[00:03:58\]](#transcript-00-03-58-54) Christ is in no way, shape, or form related to us in that way.

[\[00:04:02\]](#transcript-00-04-02-55) As far as our weakness goes, the sufferings and the struggles that we faced.

[\[00:04:07\]](#transcript-00-04-07-56) This is true because we are told by the writer of Hebrews that in every way he did experience those types of frustrations and weakness without sin, though.

[\[00:04:16\]](#transcript-00-04-16-57) What I want to talk about to get the theological niceties out of the way and keep people from coming after me.

[\[00:04:21\]](#transcript-00-04-21-58) I want to specifically talk about how we project upon God, our Father, a human ceiling.

[\[00:04:28\]](#transcript-00-04-28-59) Well, we pretty much will look at Him through the lenses of whatever we think a father should be, or our experiences of our own fathers.

[\[00:04:39\]](#transcript-00-04-39-60) And if you don't have a father, then it's hard for you.

[\[00:04:42\]](#transcript-00-04-42-61) Like, I don't know how I've never knownown my dad.

[\[00:04:44\]](#transcript-00-04-44-62) I don't, I don't know how to relate to other.

[\[00:04:48\]](#transcript-00-04-48-63) I really don't, when someone says to me, God, our father, it either makes me angry because my father abandoned me, it makes me sad because my dad died, and I never had a relationship with him.

[\[00:04:57\]](#transcript-00-04-57-64) So I don't know what it's like to have a relationship with God as a father.

[\[00:05:01\]](#transcript-00-05-01-65) And this probably resonates with many of you that are out there who had horrible fathers.

[\[00:05:06\]](#transcript-00-05-06-66) Like I think about God the Father, and it just puts a horrible taste in my mouth.

[\[00:05:10\]](#transcript-00-05-10-67) I'm not excited about the concept of God being my father, just because I don't understand it.

[\[00:05:17\]](#transcript-00-05-17-68) It's been a negative experience.

[\[00:05:21\]](#transcript-00-05-21-69) You might be listening to this, and even be thinking to yourself, and I want to talk to you as well.

[\[00:05:26\]](#transcript-00-05-26-70) This is the boat I find myself in.

[\[00:05:28\]](#transcript-00-05-28-71) I had an amazing father, a wonderful dad.

[\[00:05:32\]](#transcript-00-05-32-72) I mean, literally, if you had to choose and pick, I would, you know, vote if you're purchasing a father, pick mine.

[\[00:05:39\]](#transcript-00-05-39-73) He was a wonderful dad, an example, wonderful example.

[\[00:05:43\]](#transcript-00-05-43-74) And the man I am today is very much influenced by him, my best friend.

[\[00:05:47\]](#transcript-00-05-47-75) And, you know, I just loved everything about him.

[\[00:05:50\]](#transcript-00-05-50-76) But my dad had a ceiling, as good as he was.

[\[00:05:53\]](#transcript-00-05-53-77) If I take what I know about my dad and try and project it into a divine fatherhood, my dad failed.

[\[00:06:00\]](#transcript-00-06-00-78) Often he failed because he was a sinner.

[\[00:06:02\]](#transcript-00-06-02-79) He was limited.

[\[00:06:03\]](#transcript-00-06-03-80) Even the best view of a father has its limitations.

[\[00:06:07\]](#transcript-00-06-07-81) And I would even say you are short-sighting yourself and you're hurting yourself if you try and think about your heavenly father as you do your earthly father, you are, without realizing it, you are going to find yourselves, you

[\[00:06:23\]](#transcript-00-06-23-82) find yourself trapped in In humanizing your experience with your divine father because of your human experience with your earthly father.

[\[00:06:36\]](#transcript-00-06-36-83) So, what we have to do is learn that our interactions with each other as humans are not the same with our God.

[\[00:06:45\]](#transcript-00-06-45-84) For a long time, we wanted to try and lower the standard of God in our relationship with Him.

[\[00:06:50\]](#transcript-00-06-50-85) And I understand why there was this distance that we would have between God.

[\[00:06:55\]](#transcript-00-06-55-86) And, you know, we would say God is not a religion, but Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship.

[\[00:06:59\]](#transcript-00-06-59-87) And so we wanted to add back in this aspect where we are relating to God, and there's definitely take and give on either direction.

[\[00:07:08\]](#transcript-00-07-08-88) There's communication happening in either way, in either direction.

[\[00:07:11\]](#transcript-00-07-11-89) And this is true.

[\[00:07:12\]](#transcript-00-07-12-90) But what we have done in doing that is that sometimes we lower this relationship so much that we lose the divine aspect, this aspect where only God can truly care for us in a way and come towards us

[\[00:07:28\]](#transcript-00-07-28-91) in a way that is unique to Himself.

[\[00:07:31\]](#transcript-00-07-31-92) Like this, this relationship we have to God is unlike anything else.

[\[00:07:36\]](#transcript-00-07-36-93) Just like the Trinity is unique, and we have to be careful to try and compare it to anything.

[\[00:07:40\]](#transcript-00-07-40-94) Otherwise, you create heresies, trying to explain and compare the Trinity to anything.

[\[00:07:45\]](#transcript-00-07-45-95) You end up actually lowering and ruining the wonder of the Trinity.

[\[00:07:49\]](#transcript-00-07-49-96) And I think when you try to relate to God in human form,

[\[00:07:56\]](#transcript-00-07-56-97) it creates a problem.

[\[00:07:57\]](#transcript-00-07-57-98) I mean, God was father before the world began.

[\[00:07:59\]](#transcript-00-07-59-99) This is the thing we have to remember: that the concept is not there.

[\[00:08:03\]](#transcript-00-08-03-100) We are learning in return what this relationship can look like.

[\[00:08:07\]](#transcript-00-08-07-101) So, what we want to do is always allow scripture to formulate our mind and our thoughts.

[\[00:08:12\]](#transcript-00-08-12-102) Here's why.

[\[00:08:12\]](#transcript-00-08-12-103) So let me tell you the end so that you'll hear this and not try to stop and say, well, this is going to be some like theological debate.

[\[00:08:19\]](#transcript-00-08-19-104) No, that's not at all.

[\[00:08:20\]](#transcript-00-08-20-105) And this is not going to be some like academic debate.

[\[00:08:22\]](#transcript-00-08-22-106) No.

[\[00:08:24\]](#transcript-00-08-24-107) When you hear God, our Father, when you pray, our Father who art in heaven, like that, when you pray out to Him, which is why I think some people have been struggling to pray, it's like I'm praying to

[\[00:08:33\]](#transcript-00-08-33-108) Father, I don't want to Father.

[\[00:08:36\]](#transcript-00-08-36-109) This relationship is too hard for me.

[\[00:08:38\]](#transcript-00-08-38-110) When you pray, our Father who art in heaven, I want you to realize that that conversation and that relationship is unlike anything you've ever experienced or can in all of the universe, whether spiritual or physical, it does not

[\[00:08:54\]](#transcript-00-08-54-111) matter.

[\[00:08:55\]](#transcript-00-08-55-112) And here's the wonder of our Bibles: is that God defines this relationship to him.

[\[00:09:02\]](#transcript-00-09-02-113) He doesn't look to, the only time he does, he's just like, yeah, you who give your children good gifts, how much more do you think I'm going to do?

[\[00:09:09\]](#transcript-00-09-09-114) Like, the only time he compares himself is the weakness of how we can give, give our earthly fathers, give us good things.

[\[00:09:17\]](#transcript-00-09-17-115) That's the only time.

[\[00:09:18\]](#transcript-00-09-18-116) It's like, what if you think that happens?

[\[00:09:20\]](#transcript-00-09-20-117) What do you think I'm going to do?

[\[00:09:21\]](#transcript-00-09-21-118) Like, I'm going to do far more than that.

[\[00:09:23\]](#transcript-00-09-23-119) You're limited.

[\[00:09:24\]](#transcript-00-09-24-120) I am, I have no limits.

[\[00:09:26\]](#transcript-00-09-26-121) So I want to recreate the word from a divine aspect because it's a divine relationship.

[\[00:09:35\]](#transcript-00-09-35-122) This relationship is not a human relationship.

[\[00:09:37\]](#transcript-00-09-37-123) Human relationships are limited, period.

[\[00:09:40\]](#transcript-00-09-40-124) As good as any relationship that you might have on this earth, there is a limit to it.

[\[00:09:46\]](#transcript-00-09-46-125) And that limitation is our human capacities, unfortunately, our sin.

[\[00:09:51\]](#transcript-00-09-51-126) Our sin 100% limits the relationship that we could have.

[\[00:09:55\]](#transcript-00-09-55-127) I have amazing relationships that are humans.

[\[00:09:58\]](#transcript-00-09-58-128) My wife is the best friend I've ever had.

[\[00:10:00\]](#transcript-00-10-00-129) And our relationship, I have a relationship with her that is beyond anything I've ever experienced in humanity with any other person.

[\[00:10:07\]](#transcript-00-10-07-130) The only thing that would ravel close to it before I was married was relationships with my mom and my dad, right?

[\[00:10:13\]](#transcript-00-10-13-131) Those were amazing relationships.

[\[00:10:15\]](#transcript-00-10-15-132) But the intimacy that I have with my wife is even greater.

[\[00:10:17\]](#transcript-00-10-17-133) I can't, like, the experiences and what we share is far greater than anything that I've ever had with my mom and dad.

[\[00:10:23\]](#transcript-00-10-23-134) And that's just the nature of how things work.

[\[00:10:25\]](#transcript-00-10-25-135) But even that is limited.

[\[00:10:26\]](#transcript-00-10-26-136) I mean, there are times where we've had great amounts of struggle.

[\[00:10:30\]](#transcript-00-10-30-137) Why?

[\[00:10:30\]](#transcript-00-10-30-138) Because there's sin involved, and there's limitations in our capacities.

[\[00:10:36\]](#transcript-00-10-36-139) So, when we think about God, the title might be there, Father, but that has to be defined by Him.

[\[00:10:43\]](#transcript-00-10-43-140) And the image is there, like children and relationship and caring, that aspect is all there.

[\[00:10:48\]](#transcript-00-10-48-141) So it is true that we have some kind of a connection to our father as it relates to our adoption to him.

[\[00:10:53\]](#transcript-00-10-53-142) And there's a familial connection as far as the spiritual blessings that come to us in the eternity, but how we relate to him is very different.

[\[00:11:05\]](#transcript-00-11-05-143) And so, what we're going to do today is look at the divine descriptions of this relationship between father and child in scripture.

[\[00:11:13\]](#transcript-00-11-13-144) And I want you to hear it because when you hear this word going forward, no matter what your experience has been in the past, I want to help it change.

[\[00:11:20\]](#transcript-00-11-20-145) I mean, some of you, I've had this experience too, where you have a bad experience with something.

[\[00:11:25\]](#transcript-00-11-25-146) And when you hear the word, you're not, you're not interested at all.

[\[00:11:28\]](#transcript-00-11-28-147) Like it could be a food, it could be an experience, a place.

[\[00:11:32\]](#transcript-00-11-32-148) You know, oh, I went to that place, and this is what happened.

[\[00:11:34\]](#transcript-00-11-34-149) And so you, something that's supposed to be enjoyable and wonderful, the word is mentioned, and you're done.

[\[00:11:41\]](#transcript-00-11-41-150) This was popcorn for me for almost 20 years of my life.

[\[00:11:44\]](#transcript-00-11-44-151) I couldn't look or smell or nothing.

[\[00:11:46\]](#transcript-00-11-46-152) It made me so sick when I was in, uh, when I was 12 years old.

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-153) I mean, I'm violently sick.

[\[00:11:52\]](#transcript-00-11-52-154) And I don't know if it was the popcorn, but it was right after I ate popcorn.

[\[00:11:55\]](#transcript-00-11-55-155) I was so sick that I could not eat it, wasn't even interested in it for 20 years.

[\[00:12:00\]](#transcript-00-12-00-156) You know, we go to the movie theater, and man, I just see it and smell it, and it just would make me crawl.

[\[00:12:06\]](#transcript-00-12-06-157) I'm like, I gotta walk past this.

[\[00:12:08\]](#transcript-00-12-08-158) This is that, thankfully, that's not the case anymore.

[\[00:12:12\]](#transcript-00-12-12-159) I just don't like popcorn just because it stuck to my teeth, but I don't get turned by it.

[\[00:12:16\]](#transcript-00-12-16-160) What I have for you is that if you are nothing, like the word means nothing to you, or it's an offense to you, or you have a bad experience with it, what we're going to do is say, Yeah,

[\[00:12:27\]](#transcript-00-12-27-161) that human experience, God is not trying to draw that so that you can look at Him.

[\[00:12:35\]](#transcript-00-12-35-162) Just to be clear, God is not saying, Look at your earthly Father and draw knowledge from that about me.

[\[00:12:41\]](#transcript-00-12-41-163) There happens to be a correlation between the word, but not the experience.

[\[00:12:47\]](#transcript-00-12-47-164) Your relationship with your earthly father is really nothing like your relationship with your heavenly father.

[\[00:12:55\]](#transcript-00-12-55-165) And being a dad, I can say that.

[\[00:12:57\]](#transcript-00-12-57-166) And I want this, I'm doing this for my own children, I'm doing this for the kids and the people in my own church.

[\[00:13:03\]](#transcript-00-13-03-167) Like, I really hope they listen to this and they learn that as good as your dad might be, or as horrible as they might be, God is not demanding you use your father's life as a window into Him.

[\[00:13:14\]](#transcript-00-13-14-168) It is not.

[\[00:13:16\]](#transcript-00-13-16-169) My life is not a window into God whatsoever.

[\[00:13:20\]](#transcript-00-13-20-170) My job is to, as uh, Paul tells the church at Ephesus, to train my children not towards me, it says train them in fear and admission of the Lord.

[\[00:13:30\]](#transcript-00-13-30-171) I'm actually re to retrain to help them rethink in light of the realities of who God is for them.

[\[00:13:36\]](#transcript-00-13-36-172) So, I just want to walk through just a couple of concepts biblically.

[\[00:13:40\]](#transcript-00-13-40-173) I want you to hear these words and hear these verses because they will help move and shift and change for you.

[\[00:13:48\]](#transcript-00-13-48-174) Do you ever wake up already feeling spiritually behind?

[\[00:13:52\]](#transcript-00-13-52-175) Like no matter how much you pray, how much you read, or how much you serve, it's just never quite enough.

[\[00:13:58\]](#transcript-00-13-58-176) Well, friend, you're not lazy and you're not faithless.

[\[00:14:02\]](#transcript-00-14-02-177) You're tired and you're not alone.

[\[00:14:05\]](#transcript-00-14-05-178) So many of us are living in a quiet prison, the one that whispers, Grace saved you, but now it's up to you to keep it up.

[\[00:14:12\]](#transcript-00-14-12-179) The one that turns rest into guilt, the one that makes you wonder if God is a little disappointed in you today.

[\[00:14:19\]](#transcript-00-14-19-180) I wrote a new book just for you.

[\[00:14:21\]](#transcript-00-14-21-181) It's called Enough in Christ: Freedom from a Performance-Driven Life.

[\[00:14:26\]](#transcript-00-14-26-182) It's a book that takes you back to what Christ actually said from the cross, it is finished, and shows you how to stop living like there's still work for you to do.

[\[00:14:36\]](#transcript-00-14-36-183) You can download the whole book free at theocast.org.

[\[00:14:40\]](#transcript-00-14-40-184) Christ really is enough, and in him, so are you.

[\[00:14:45\]](#transcript-00-14-45-185) Let's start with the probably the thing that matters the most in a relationship: love.

[\[00:14:50\]](#transcript-00-14-50-186) Now, that word is defined by our culture, and it's also defined by our experience.

[\[00:14:55\]](#transcript-00-14-55-187) Without it, we can't even help it.

[\[00:14:57\]](#transcript-00-14-57-188) When someone says, I love you, then you look at their life and you try to define it by what they're saying, and then music and movies define love.

[\[00:15:05\]](#transcript-00-15-05-189) Love is how you feel.

[\[00:15:07\]](#transcript-00-15-07-190) Love is could be a physical action, right?

[\[00:15:12\]](#transcript-00-15-12-191) Some type of interaction between the opposite sex or the same sex.

[\[00:15:15\]](#transcript-00-15-15-192) Like, we define love at the end of the day when you really think about it.

[\[00:15:19\]](#transcript-00-15-19-193) I'm just going to summarize this.

[\[00:15:21\]](#transcript-00-15-21-194) We define love how something else makes me feel.

[\[00:15:24\]](#transcript-00-15-24-195) If it creates an emotional and physical, or even some type of an adrenaline rush, we equate that to love.

[\[00:15:32\]](#transcript-00-15-32-196) And so, if I don't have those experiences, then I don't have love.

[\[00:15:36\]](#transcript-00-15-36-197) But that's not how God defines love, and it's not how He defines Himself.

[\[00:15:41\]](#transcript-00-15-41-198) Listen, how God defines love.

[\[00:15:43\]](#transcript-00-15-43-199) What he says, I love you.

[\[00:15:44\]](#transcript-00-15-44-200) Let me define the word for you.

[\[00:15:46\]](#transcript-00-15-46-201) It's a love that gives.

[\[00:15:47\]](#transcript-00-15-47-202) So when I say I love you, it's not even just giving of flowers and gifts and candies and toys.

[\[00:15:54\]](#transcript-00-15-54-203) It's a give that cannot be measured and cannot be compared, and no one else can give in this way.

[\[00:16:00\]](#transcript-00-16-00-204) No one else has ever given in this way.

[\[00:16:02\]](#transcript-00-16-02-205) This is John 3:16, the most famous verse, but think about how he defines it: for God so loved the world, and then he gives you the definition that he gave his only begotten son, he gave his only son.

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-206) Right now, when we think about why is he giving it?

[\[00:16:18\]](#transcript-00-16-18-207) Well, something had to pay for the crimes and your sin and this nature that you have.

[\[00:16:26\]](#transcript-00-16-26-208) And God is saying, My love for you, I'm gonna show you how it's defined, it's defined by giving this precious relationship that I have, a son, so that he would then receive what it is that you deserve.

[\[00:16:41\]](#transcript-00-16-41-209) There's another way in which he defines it.

[\[00:16:43\]](#transcript-00-16-43-210) Again, the Apostle John, the Apostle of Love, as he defines himself.

[\[00:16:47\]](#transcript-00-16-47-211) 1 John 4:10, in this is love.

[\[00:16:49\]](#transcript-00-16-49-212) Why would he have to say this?

[\[00:16:50\]](#transcript-00-16-50-213) Because the world has changed, even up to this point, the world has changed the define of love.

[\[00:16:55\]](#transcript-00-16-55-214) And John says, no, no.

[\[00:16:57\]](#transcript-00-16-57-215) Let me tell you what love is.

[\[00:16:58\]](#transcript-00-16-58-216) In this is love, not that we have loved him.

[\[00:17:01\]](#transcript-00-17-01-217) So it's not a, it's not transactional.

[\[00:17:03\]](#transcript-00-17-03-218) It's not that, hey, God, I love you.

[\[00:17:05\]](#transcript-00-17-05-219) And he's like, oh, okay, well, I love you too.

[\[00:17:07\]](#transcript-00-17-07-220) You know, I can remember the first time I said those words to my wife, like, I love you.

[\[00:17:11\]](#transcript-00-17-11-221) And I'm like, oh boy, really hope I get it in return.

[\[00:17:15\]](#transcript-00-17-15-222) Because if not, this is going to be awkward.

[\[00:17:17\]](#transcript-00-17-17-223) This is not saying, okay, God, I love you.

[\[00:17:20\]](#transcript-00-17-20-224) I hope he says it in return.

[\[00:17:21\]](#transcript-00-17-21-225) No, he says, and this is love, not that we loved God, but he loved us and sent his son to be a propitiation.

[\[00:17:28\]](#transcript-00-17-28-226) That means to be the payment for our sins.

[\[00:17:32\]](#transcript-00-17-32-227) It's not transactional.

[\[00:17:33\]](#transcript-00-17-33-228) God's like, I actually loved, I love you.

[\[00:17:36\]](#transcript-00-17-36-229) I did it first.

[\[00:17:37\]](#transcript-00-17-37-230) We love because he first loved us, and his love is sacrificial.

[\[00:17:42\]](#transcript-00-17-42-231) It's not transactional.

[\[00:17:44\]](#transcript-00-17-44-232) He's actually setting you up to love him.

[\[00:17:48\]](#transcript-00-17-48-233) He's setting you up to love him.

[\[00:17:50\]](#transcript-00-17-50-234) He's not responding to your love.

[\[00:17:53\]](#transcript-00-17-53-235) Romans 5:8, right?

[\[00:17:55\]](#transcript-00-17-55-236) But God shows his love for us, and that while we were sinners, Christ died for us.

[\[00:18:00\]](#transcript-00-18-00-237) The gospel is the dripping reprogramming of a definition of love.

[\[00:18:06\]](#transcript-00-18-06-238) The gospel is not transactional whatsoever.

[\[00:18:08\]](#transcript-00-18-08-239) That's why it's described as a gift.

[\[00:18:11\]](#transcript-00-18-11-240) It is a gift to us.

[\[00:18:13\]](#transcript-00-18-13-241) So when the Father says, I love you.

[\[00:18:17\]](#transcript-00-18-17-242) It's coming to you in this term that is zero transaction.

[\[00:18:21\]](#transcript-00-18-21-243) It's him giving unconditionally.

[\[00:18:23\]](#transcript-00-18-23-244) Now, that's just not, we're not used to that.

[\[00:18:26\]](#transcript-00-18-26-245) And I'm with you when you go like, yeah, I hear that, but I just don't understand that.

[\[00:18:30\]](#transcript-00-18-30-246) That's because we have to continue to use all of scripture to redefine the way in which we have this divine relationship with our God.

[\[00:18:37\]](#transcript-00-18-37-247) We don't have relationships like this.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-248) As much as I love my wife, I'm limited, I'm a sinner.

[\[00:18:44\]](#transcript-00-18-44-249) I'm so incapable of loving my wife this way or loving my children this way.

[\[00:18:48\]](#transcript-00-18-48-250) I would hope that I would love them this way, but I'm not capable of doing that because I'm a sinner and I often need to ask them to forgive me.

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-251) I don't know if a human outside of Jesus has ever, no, I can say that.

[\[00:19:02\]](#transcript-00-19-02-252) No human outside of Jesus has ever demonstrated this type of love.

[\[00:19:08\]](#transcript-00-19-08-253) This is why it has to be given by the Father first because He is the one who has to demonstrate how it works.

[\[00:19:14\]](#transcript-00-19-14-254) We're called to this kind of love, but we've never done it.

[\[00:19:17\]](#transcript-00-19-17-255) Not only that, when you think about love, it's easy to say that we love something until it until it turns on us, even if that love costs us in the beginning.

[\[00:19:28\]](#transcript-00-19-28-256) Like having children does, there's a lot of pain and suffering, especially for the women, mostly for the women, 99.999% for the women, but for all of us parents, it does it.

[\[00:19:39\]](#transcript-00-19-39-257) We have to sacrifice, right, for these children.

[\[00:19:42\]](#transcript-00-19-42-258) But does the love hold over time?

[\[00:19:44\]](#transcript-00-19-44-259) And it's like if this child doesn't respond in the way that we want.

[\[00:19:47\]](#transcript-00-19-47-260) You know, we can see where many parents have struggled to love their children because of what has happened or what they end up doing.

[\[00:19:55\]](#transcript-00-19-55-261) And so there ends up being this response to them.

[\[00:20:00\]](#transcript-00-20-00-262) I love this.

[\[00:20:00\]](#transcript-00-20-00-263) This is Numbers 23, 19, responding to Israel, helping them understand.

[\[00:20:04\]](#transcript-00-20-04-264) Don't look at the kings, don't look at rulers, don't look at humans, don't look at your earthly father.

[\[00:20:09\]](#transcript-00-20-09-265) I am not like this.

[\[00:20:11\]](#transcript-00-20-11-266) This is Numbers 23:19.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-267) God is not man, and he should not lie, or son of man, that he should change his mind.

[\[00:20:22\]](#transcript-00-20-22-268) Has said, and he will, He has said, and will he not do it?

[\[00:20:27\]](#transcript-00-20-27-269) Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

[\[00:20:31\]](#transcript-00-20-31-270) You see, right there, I love that the writers of the Old Testament, you have Moses saying, do not think of God like a human.

[\[00:20:41\]](#transcript-00-20-41-271) He is not limited, and he is not controlled by human passions, and he is not manipulated by sin or emotion, or adrenaline, or any of this.

[\[00:20:53\]](#transcript-00-20-53-272) This is, God is not manipulated by these things.

[\[00:20:56\]](#transcript-00-20-56-273) He is not controlled by these things.

[\[00:20:57\]](#transcript-00-20-57-274) He is not bound by them.

[\[00:21:00\]](#transcript-00-21-00-275) This is why doctrines are so powerful and so helpful.

[\[00:21:03\]](#transcript-00-21-03-276) We don't want lust doctrine.

[\[00:21:04\]](#transcript-00-21-04-277) We want more doctor, but let's not disconnect the doctrines and just look at it and say, Well, God is not a God that ever changes.

[\[00:21:10\]](#transcript-00-21-10-278) Great.

[\[00:21:10\]](#transcript-00-21-10-279) We want to know that because that is good for us to know that when I am failing, and I do change that.

[\[00:21:18\]](#transcript-00-21-18-280) When his interactions with me is, I have forgiven you, you are now mine.

[\[00:21:23\]](#transcript-00-21-23-281) I love you.

[\[00:21:24\]](#transcript-00-21-24-282) He says, I don't change my mind on my love.

[\[00:21:26\]](#transcript-00-21-26-283) No, we as humans do.

[\[00:21:28\]](#transcript-00-21-28-284) Divorce is a real thing.

[\[00:21:29\]](#transcript-00-21-29-285) People talk about falling out of love, right?

[\[00:21:31\]](#transcript-00-21-31-286) People disown their children.

[\[00:21:32\]](#transcript-00-21-32-287) It's a horrible thing that we do to women.

[\[00:21:34\]](#transcript-00-21-34-288) We do it to each other.

[\[00:21:34\]](#transcript-00-21-34-289) And God says, I am not like that.

[\[00:21:37\]](#transcript-00-21-37-290) I am not like that.

[\[00:21:39\]](#transcript-00-21-39-291) I am not controlled in that way.

[\[00:21:41\]](#transcript-00-21-41-292) This is good.

[\[00:21:42\]](#transcript-00-21-42-293) You need to have this in your mind when you're saying, Our father, who does not change, who is not controlled by emotions in the way in which humans are fickle, he is not moved based upon, well, I'm just

[\[00:21:54\]](#transcript-00-21-54-294) not feeling it today.

[\[00:21:56\]](#transcript-00-21-56-295) And when you show up and you expect your father to be there, or you're hoping your father is there, there is no hoping.

[\[00:22:04\]](#transcript-00-22-04-296) He says, I am there.

[\[00:22:05\]](#transcript-00-22-05-297) I am not controlled.

[\[00:22:06\]](#transcript-00-22-06-298) It's like, yeah, well, I have something else better to do.

[\[00:22:08\]](#transcript-00-22-08-299) We've all had that moment where our fathers have let us down.

[\[00:22:11\]](#transcript-00-22-11-300) They didn't show up as they should.

[\[00:22:13\]](#transcript-00-22-13-301) Something got their attention, their emotion.

[\[00:22:15\]](#transcript-00-22-15-302) They're angry when we're hoping they would be happy.

[\[00:22:17\]](#transcript-00-22-17-303) It's like, feel the waters today, right?

[\[00:22:18\]](#transcript-00-22-18-304) You're like, hey, dad, how's it going today?

[\[00:22:20\]](#transcript-00-22-20-305) You know, like, you know, my kids do this to me because I'm a failure.

[\[00:22:24\]](#transcript-00-22-24-306) And my dad will, my kids will feel me out, like, hey, you know, like, how's dad doing today?

[\[00:22:30\]](#transcript-00-22-30-307) This is not him at all.

[\[00:22:33\]](#transcript-00-22-33-308) Hosea 11:9.

[\[00:22:35\]](#transcript-00-22-35-309) For I am God and not a man, the holy one in your midst, and I will not come in wrath.

[\[00:22:41\]](#transcript-00-22-41-310) You're a youth, you have failed, and you're expecting this wrathful, vengeful God to come upon you.

[\[00:22:46\]](#transcript-00-22-46-311) I'm going to correct you because I correct the ones whom I love, but my wrath is not coming upon you.

[\[00:22:50\]](#transcript-00-22-50-312) Why?

[\[00:22:50\]](#transcript-00-22-50-313) Because I put my blessing upon you and you're my children.

[\[00:22:53\]](#transcript-00-22-53-314) Micah 3:6.

[\[00:22:55\]](#transcript-00-22-55-315) Micah 3:6, For I, the Lord, do not change.

[\[00:22:58\]](#transcript-00-22-58-316) And this is good.

[\[00:23:00\]](#transcript-00-23-00-317) Therefore, oh children of Israel, of Jacob, are not consumed.

[\[00:23:04\]](#transcript-00-23-04-318) I'm not going to consume you because I have already promised to save you.

[\[00:23:09\]](#transcript-00-23-09-319) Notice the context.

[\[00:23:10\]](#transcript-00-23-10-320) It's not that I'm a God who does not change.

[\[00:23:12\]](#transcript-00-23-12-321) It's like, oh, that's good to know.

[\[00:23:13\]](#transcript-00-23-13-322) It's like, oh, wait a minute.

[\[00:23:15\]](#transcript-00-23-15-323) Yeah, I know you said you love me, but did you see what I did?

[\[00:23:18\]](#transcript-00-23-18-324) Have you?

[\[00:23:20\]](#transcript-00-23-20-325) What?

[\[00:23:20\]](#transcript-00-23-20-326) Like, did I'm not a guy that changes?

[\[00:23:24\]](#transcript-00-23-24-327) I'm not like humans.

[\[00:23:25\]](#transcript-00-23-25-328) I am not controlled in the ways in you are.

[\[00:23:28\]](#transcript-00-23-28-329) I am true to my word, and none can stay my hand.

[\[00:23:31\]](#transcript-00-23-31-330) I love Daniel 4:35.

[\[00:23:32\]](#transcript-00-23-32-331) And who can stay his hand?

[\[00:23:34\]](#transcript-00-23-34-332) Who can keep him from doing what he wants to do?

[\[00:23:36\]](#transcript-00-23-36-333) He says, I want to love you.

[\[00:23:38\]](#transcript-00-23-38-334) I'm not responding to you.

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-335) I gave my love for you.

[\[00:23:41\]](#transcript-00-23-41-336) As a matter of fact, you were like, well, how do I know you love me?

[\[00:23:43\]](#transcript-00-23-43-337) I gave my son.

[\[00:23:45\]](#transcript-00-23-45-338) I set you free from your sin.

[\[00:23:49\]](#transcript-00-23-49-339) Like, I gave the ultimate gift.

[\[00:23:52\]](#transcript-00-23-52-340) That's how you know I love you.

[\[00:23:54\]](#transcript-00-23-54-341) Well, how do I know you're not going to stop loving me?

[\[00:23:57\]](#transcript-00-23-57-342) Because I don't change.

[\[00:24:00\]](#transcript-00-24-00-343) I'm not a God that is changed.

[\[00:24:02\]](#transcript-00-24-02-344) I can't change.

[\[00:24:02\]](#transcript-00-24-02-345) I won't change.

[\[00:24:03\]](#transcript-00-24-03-346) I don't change.

[\[00:24:05\]](#transcript-00-24-05-347) It's not a part of who he is.

[\[00:24:07\]](#transcript-00-24-07-348) He's not like a man.

[\[00:24:09\]](#transcript-00-24-09-349) Humans, we are fickle.

[\[00:24:10\]](#transcript-00-24-10-350) He is not like us.

[\[00:24:13\]](#transcript-00-24-13-351) So when God says something to you like this, Romans 8:35.

[\[00:24:18\]](#transcript-00-24-18-352) Who will separate us from the love of Christ?

[\[00:24:21\]](#transcript-00-24-21-353) Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

[\[00:24:25\]](#transcript-00-24-25-354) Like there's nothing in heaven or on earth.

[\[00:24:28\]](#transcript-00-24-28-355) Nothing, not even you, you fit into this.

[\[00:24:32\]](#transcript-00-24-32-356) You can't separate yourself from me.

[\[00:24:35\]](#transcript-00-24-35-357) This is Romans 8:37, 39.

[\[00:24:37\]](#transcript-00-24-37-358) No, all these things, in all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us, who not Not what, what who love?

[\[00:24:47\]](#transcript-00-24-47-359) How are we conquering this?

[\[00:24:49\]](#transcript-00-24-49-360) We're not even just conquering, it's more than conquering.

[\[00:24:51\]](#transcript-00-24-51-361) Like, I don't even know how to describe what that means: the victory we have in this relationship with the Father is because of love.

[\[00:24:59\]](#transcript-00-24-59-362) For I am sure that neither death nor life nor angels nor rulers nor things, I mean, he is giving you every possible thing.

[\[00:25:06\]](#transcript-00-25-06-363) And then when he's like, whatever else you want to try to throw in there, I mean, angels and demons, swords, death, you think debt, nothing and anything else can separate us from the love of God, which is in

[\[00:25:17\]](#transcript-00-25-17-364) Christ Jesus.

[\[00:25:20\]](#transcript-00-25-20-365) So it's important when Paul says, I am sure.

[\[00:25:24\]](#transcript-00-25-24-366) He goes, not that I hope.

[\[00:25:25\]](#transcript-00-25-25-367) I hope this is true for you.

[\[00:25:28\]](#transcript-00-25-28-368) If you are in Christ, you believe in the gospel, you are an adopted child.

[\[00:25:32\]](#transcript-00-25-32-369) And Jesus looks at you and says, Call upon the father.

[\[00:25:35\]](#transcript-00-25-35-370) Oh, by the way, this father, not human father, not the one who changes, not the one that is like a man.

[\[00:25:42\]](#transcript-00-25-42-371) He's not like a man.

[\[00:25:43\]](#transcript-00-25-43-372) He does not change.

[\[00:25:45\]](#transcript-00-25-45-373) You call upon this father.

[\[00:25:48\]](#transcript-00-25-48-374) Don't think about this one over here.

[\[00:25:50\]](#transcript-00-25-50-375) That's not the relationship.

[\[00:25:51\]](#transcript-00-25-51-376) This is the relationship.

[\[00:25:53\]](#transcript-00-25-53-377) And how is it that we have that relationship?

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-378) It is not a relationship based upon take and give, human interactions.

[\[00:26:00\]](#transcript-00-26-00-379) He says, I am sure of this because you are in Christ.

[\[00:26:05\]](#transcript-00-26-05-380) We have been clothed.

[\[00:26:06\]](#transcript-00-26-06-381) We have been washed by the blood of Christ.

[\[00:26:08\]](#transcript-00-26-08-382) We've been covered by the robe of Christ.

[\[00:26:10\]](#transcript-00-26-10-383) And we are in this relationship by faith, meaning that I trust that my forgiveness is true and my righteousness is true.

[\[00:26:16\]](#transcript-00-26-16-384) And how do I know I have that?

[\[00:26:18\]](#transcript-00-26-18-385) John says, I write these things that you might know and you may believe.

[\[00:26:21\]](#transcript-00-26-21-386) How is it we know?

[\[00:26:22\]](#transcript-00-26-22-387) Well, here's what he did.

[\[00:26:23\]](#transcript-00-26-23-388) And how do I know that I have Christ?

[\[00:26:25\]](#transcript-00-26-25-389) I believe.

[\[00:26:27\]](#transcript-00-26-27-390) Faith comes through hearing and hearing the word of Christ.

[\[00:26:29\]](#transcript-00-26-29-391) Did you hear it?

[\[00:26:29\]](#transcript-00-26-29-392) Did you believe it?

[\[00:26:31\]](#transcript-00-26-31-393) Did you know this is true?

[\[00:26:32\]](#transcript-00-26-32-394) Right.

[\[00:26:33\]](#transcript-00-26-33-395) And even that gift, you're like, well, I don't know if I have enough faith.

[\[00:26:36\]](#transcript-00-26-36-396) Well, that's not the right question.

[\[00:26:38\]](#transcript-00-26-38-397) It's been given to you.

[\[00:26:39\]](#transcript-00-26-39-398) And it's not a way you measure.

[\[00:26:40\]](#transcript-00-26-40-399) You don't measure your faith.

[\[00:26:42\]](#transcript-00-26-42-400) You measure the one saving you.

[\[00:26:44\]](#transcript-00-26-44-401) Is Jesus sufficient to save you?

[\[00:26:46\]](#transcript-00-26-46-402) Then you have this relationship with your father because he chose to enter into it while you were a sinner.

[\[00:26:51\]](#transcript-00-26-51-403) It wasn't like, Lord, I repent.

[\[00:26:53\]](#transcript-00-26-53-404) I believe.

[\[00:26:54\]](#transcript-00-26-54-405) Now I'm adopted.

[\[00:26:56\]](#transcript-00-26-56-406) No, the Father said, No, when you were a sinner, when you were at your worst, when you were not running towards me, the adoption papers were signed by my son in blood.

[\[00:27:07\]](#transcript-00-27-07-407) He chose us before the foundations of the world.

[\[00:27:10\]](#transcript-00-27-10-408) You see how this relationship works?

[\[00:27:12\]](#transcript-00-27-12-409) This is very different, right?

[\[00:27:14\]](#transcript-00-27-14-410) No, many times your father either chooses to have you, which is great.

[\[00:27:19\]](#transcript-00-27-19-411) You know, it's always good to be chosen.

[\[00:27:20\]](#transcript-00-27-20-412) Like, okay, my earthly father chose to have a child, and that's the result of what I am.

[\[00:27:26\]](#transcript-00-27-26-413) Or he doesn't.

[\[00:27:27\]](#transcript-00-27-27-414) You're an oops.

[\[00:27:29\]](#transcript-00-27-29-415) Either way, the relationship is complicated.

[\[00:27:31\]](#transcript-00-27-31-416) And the father is like, Before you ever even knew my existence, I decided to choose you.

[\[00:27:38\]](#transcript-00-27-38-417) I entered in this relationship and I sealed it with the blood of my son, so that you would always look at it and say, is not my performance.

[\[00:27:46\]](#transcript-00-27-46-418) I don't call him father based upon faithfulness.

[\[00:27:49\]](#transcript-00-27-49-419) I call him father because he adopted me in Christ.

[\[00:27:53\]](#transcript-00-27-53-420) Man, that's a different way of thinking about it.

[\[00:27:56\]](#transcript-00-27-56-421) Now, sometimes this is the last part, we can kind of feel as if, yeah, I know I've got this relationship with the divine being, but

[\[00:28:06\]](#transcript-00-28-06-422) it doesn't really feel like he's here, like, I don't ever really feel his presence, yeah.

[\[00:28:15\]](#transcript-00-28-15-423) Does he care?

[\[00:28:16\]](#transcript-00-28-16-424) Well, again, you are letting the world or Satan, or just the lack of knowledge to define your relationship with him, let him define it.

[\[00:28:29\]](#transcript-00-28-29-425) It's literally, he saved your soul, he created you, and then he's like, here's a book that helps you understand me.

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-426) Here's a book, a big one, full of stories.

[\[00:28:42\]](#transcript-00-28-42-427) When it's so great about the Bible, it's not just facts, you know, like a dictionary, it's a dictionary on God.

[\[00:28:48\]](#transcript-00-28-48-428) God is love.

[\[00:28:50\]](#transcript-00-28-50-429) He's like, How about I give you some stories?

[\[00:28:52\]](#transcript-00-28-52-430) Stories that define my love.

[\[00:28:56\]](#transcript-00-28-56-431) I love this.

[\[00:28:57\]](#transcript-00-28-57-432) This is a psalm.

[\[00:28:58\]](#transcript-00-28-58-433) This is like a song, right?

[\[00:29:00\]](#transcript-00-29-00-434) Someone needs to write a song about this.

[\[00:29:02\]](#transcript-00-29-02-435) Maybe there is.

[\[00:29:03\]](#transcript-00-29-03-436) I don't know a lot of modern songs, Christian songs, but Psalm 56:8.

[\[00:29:08\]](#transcript-00-29-08-437) The writer of this psalm says, You have kept count of my tossings.

[\[00:29:14\]](#transcript-00-29-14-438) Now, a guy who tosses a lot, I mean, my poor, my poor wife, I end up ripping sheets because I'm like, flip-flop, flip-flop.

[\[00:29:22\]](#transcript-00-29-22-439) And a lot of it's because of anxiety, or I just have a hard time sleeping, or whatever.

[\[00:29:25\]](#transcript-00-29-25-440) Right?

[\[00:29:26\]](#transcript-00-29-26-441) He's he actually he knows, he counts it.

[\[00:29:29\]](#transcript-00-29-29-442) Now, why would he lie?

[\[00:29:31\]](#transcript-00-29-31-443) Like, up to this point, I gave my son for you, I know all things.

[\[00:29:36\]](#transcript-00-29-36-444) Why would why would he lie?

[\[00:29:38\]](#transcript-00-29-38-445) Why would the psalmist write that and just be like, yeah, I kind of, it's like a metaphor.

[\[00:29:42\]](#transcript-00-29-42-446) He really doesn't know.

[\[00:29:43\]](#transcript-00-29-43-447) No, God is very aware.

[\[00:29:45\]](#transcript-00-29-45-448) I mean, He lives within you, the Holy Spirit, right?

[\[00:29:48\]](#transcript-00-29-48-449) The Holy Spirit is actually, we talked about prayer a couple of weeks ago, but crying out with groanings deeper than we could even possibly understand.

[\[00:29:55\]](#transcript-00-29-55-450) And so the father is in constant communion with us.

[\[00:29:58\]](#transcript-00-29-58-451) But he says, Yeah, I see your tossings.

[\[00:30:02\]](#transcript-00-30-02-452) Even more, it says, Put my tears in your bottle.

[\[00:30:11\]](#transcript-00-30-11-453) Are they not in your book?

[\[00:30:13\]](#transcript-00-30-13-454) Like, somehow God is taking note of the joy, but in this particular situation, if you're tossing the heartache, like he knows you, he is watching you.

[\[00:30:28\]](#transcript-00-30-28-455) You think about Santa Claus, ugh, it's creepy.

[\[00:30:31\]](#transcript-00-30-31-456) He knows if you've been bad or good, so beware for goodness sakes.

[\[00:30:35\]](#transcript-00-30-35-457) The psalmist is like he sees you when you are distraught and he loves you.

[\[00:30:43\]](#transcript-00-30-43-458) You don't keep things in a bottle as a count of, like, I'm going to hold this as accusations against you.

[\[00:30:47\]](#transcript-00-30-47-459) It's like, no, I keep track of my children because I love them.

[\[00:30:54\]](#transcript-00-30-54-460) This is why John says, see, this is love.

[\[00:30:57\]](#transcript-00-30-57-461) This is love.

[\[00:30:59\]](#transcript-00-30-59-462) He cares about you.

[\[00:31:00\]](#transcript-00-31-00-463) I mean, that's not in there just so it can have a fun frame on your wall, so that you know, you got to put something up on the wall.

[\[00:31:10\]](#transcript-00-31-10-464) This is in here so that you would sing it, you'd memorize it, and you would remind yourself: He is a father who cares about my experience in this world.

[\[00:31:21\]](#transcript-00-31-21-465) He truly does.

[\[00:31:23\]](#transcript-00-31-23-466) I love Zachariah 3:17.

[\[00:31:25\]](#transcript-00-31-25-467) He says, The Lord your God is in your midst.

[\[00:31:28\]](#transcript-00-31-28-468) Now, why would he say that if they already knew that?

[\[00:31:31\]](#transcript-00-31-31-469) They didn't know it, right?

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-470) They were forgetting that they had a God who was with them.

[\[00:31:37\]](#transcript-00-31-37-471) Now, their experience of a divine relationship is again, we want to try and humanize it.

[\[00:31:41\]](#transcript-00-31-41-472) I think the relationship would be like this.

[\[00:31:43\]](#transcript-00-31-43-473) Well, then it would be like any other human relationship.

[\[00:31:46\]](#transcript-00-31-46-474) If we let God define it, it becomes wonderful and glorious, more powerful than anything we could ever imagine.

[\[00:31:52\]](#transcript-00-31-52-475) And he's saying, He is in your midst, a mighty one who will save.

[\[00:31:56\]](#transcript-00-31-56-476) This is the prophet reaching out to these people, saying, Stop turning to other gods.

[\[00:32:01\]](#transcript-00-32-01-477) Stop turning to idol worship.

[\[00:32:03\]](#transcript-00-32-03-478) Stop turning to sensuality and to other nations, to other kings.

[\[00:32:08\]](#transcript-00-32-08-479) Your God is with you.

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-480) You don't need these other things.

[\[00:32:14\]](#transcript-00-32-14-481) And then there's this language that it's not just that he has saved us and he clothed us, but this relationship has an eternal impact that our physical, our physical fathers can even, like, I can't guarantee the eternality of

[\[00:32:28\]](#transcript-00-32-28-482) my kids for nothing.

[\[00:32:31\]](#transcript-00-32-31-483) I had no control over that, but our father does.

[\[00:32:35\]](#transcript-00-32-35-484) This is Ephesians 1:5.

[\[00:32:38\]](#transcript-00-32-38-485) He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will.

[\[00:32:44\]](#transcript-00-32-44-486) This isn't like he's got no plan, he has a plan for you.

[\[00:32:49\]](#transcript-00-32-49-487) He's gathered your tears, he wants to hear from you, he's creating a mechanism for you to pray to him.

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-488) Go back to a couple of weeks ago in that episode.

[\[00:32:57\]](#transcript-00-32-57-489) He wants to interact with you.

[\[00:32:59\]](#transcript-00-32-59-490) Romans 8:15.

[\[00:33:00\]](#transcript-00-33-00-491) For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry, Abba, Father.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-492) He's saying in the midst of this struggle, he goes, I didn't want you to go back into your sin.

[\[00:33:14\]](#transcript-00-33-14-493) He delivered you from it, and you can cry out for help.

[\[00:33:17\]](#transcript-00-33-17-494) Like, God, help me.

[\[00:33:19\]](#transcript-00-33-19-495) Like, I don't want to be trapped in these sins, He doesn't want you trapped in these sins.

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-496) And when we cry out with tears, He's there receiving them.

[\[00:33:26\]](#transcript-00-33-26-497) His arms aren't crossed up saying, Oh, I can't believe this is happening again.

[\[00:33:30\]](#transcript-00-33-30-498) Like, that's the attitude, as if there's a limitation to our Father and His forgiveness.

[\[00:33:35\]](#transcript-00-33-35-499) What does the psalmist say?

[\[00:33:36\]](#transcript-00-33-36-500) Is that He has separated our sins as far as the East is from the West.

[\[00:33:39\]](#transcript-00-33-39-501) He's thrown them in the deepest parts of the sea, never to be found again.

[\[00:33:42\]](#transcript-00-33-42-502) Not your past sins, but all your sins.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-503) It covers everything.

[\[00:33:47\]](#transcript-00-33-47-504) This is

[\[00:33:50\]](#transcript-00-33-50-505) Galatians 4:6.

[\[00:33:51\]](#transcript-00-33-51-506) And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba Father.

[\[00:33:58\]](#transcript-00-33-58-507) He loves us.

[\[00:34:00\]](#transcript-00-34-00-508) The Spirit lives within us, and there is this unique relationship that is between Him that you have a connection.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-509) Yes, we have a connection with our earthly Father, but you have a connection on a spiritual divine level through the power of the Spirit.

[\[00:34:13\]](#transcript-00-34-13-510) And inside of us, it is actually evoking us to have this intimate relationship.

[\[00:34:18\]](#transcript-00-34-18-511) Well, we can't have that intimate relationship with Him if we're not willing to train our heart and our mind to think of God in the ways in which He has called us to think about Him, we cannot put

[\[00:34:29\]](#transcript-00-34-29-512) a ceiling to this relationship from a human standpoint and a human father, but we have to allow the Father through the Word by the power of the Spirit to reshape the way in which we interact with Him.

[\[00:34:43\]](#transcript-00-34-43-513) Go back to 1 John 3:1.

[\[00:34:45\]](#transcript-00-34-45-514) See what kind of love the Father has given to us

[\[00:34:50\]](#transcript-00-34-50-515) that we should be called the sons of God, and so we are.

[\[00:34:56\]](#transcript-00-34-56-516) see what kind of love this is?

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-517) This isn't God saying, Yeah, I love you, kind of like I love ice cream or I love mountains.

[\[00:35:03\]](#transcript-00-35-03-518) I love you and I've adopted you.

[\[00:35:07\]](#transcript-00-35-07-519) And so we are.

[\[00:35:08\]](#transcript-00-35-08-520) This is

[\[00:35:10\]](#transcript-00-35-10-521) listen to this from Jesus.

[\[00:35:13\]](#transcript-00-35-13-522) This verse is: I remember preaching John 17.

[\[00:35:16\]](#transcript-00-35-16-523) I loved preaching John 17.

[\[00:35:17\]](#transcript-00-35-17-524) It totally kept me in ministry.

[\[00:35:20\]](#transcript-00-35-20-525) It just revived me from a really dark moment in my life.

[\[00:35:23\]](#transcript-00-35-23-526) This is John 17:23.

[\[00:35:25\]](#transcript-00-35-25-527) I in them, and you and me, this is Jesus talking, that they may become perfectly one.

[\[00:35:31\]](#transcript-00-35-31-528) So there's this relationship that we have because we are sons.

[\[00:35:36\]](#transcript-00-35-36-529) This is the Son, we are in Him, He is in us, we're in the Father.

[\[00:35:39\]](#transcript-00-35-39-530) And then He says, This so that the world may know that you sent me and loved me.

[\[00:35:44\]](#transcript-00-35-44-531) So, this is the prayer, right?

[\[00:35:46\]](#transcript-00-35-46-532) He's having this prayer, talking about what's going on, this relationship.

[\[00:35:50\]](#transcript-00-35-50-533) It's very complicated but wonderful.

[\[00:35:54\]](#transcript-00-35-54-534) But listen to this last phrase.

[\[00:35:56\]](#transcript-00-35-56-535) He says, So that the world may know that you sent me and loved them, we the adopted ones, even as you loved me, and you're thinking to yourself, well, there's, yeah, I mean, the love between the father and

[\[00:36:13\]](#transcript-00-36-13-536) the son is like, no one can touch that.

[\[00:36:15\]](#transcript-00-36-15-537) That's insane.

[\[00:36:17\]](#transcript-00-36-17-538) That is, there's that, wow.

[\[00:36:19\]](#transcript-00-36-19-539) And Jesus says, Yeah, but that's the love you get.

[\[00:36:22\]](#transcript-00-36-22-540) Like the love that God, the Father, has with me.

[\[00:36:24\]](#transcript-00-36-24-541) That's the love you get.

[\[00:36:26\]](#transcript-00-36-26-542) It's not a secondary love.

[\[00:36:28\]](#transcript-00-36-28-543) I don't understand it.

[\[00:36:30\]](#transcript-00-36-30-544) You see, see, when he says you're adopted, all the benefits that he gives to Christ, all of the blessings that come to Jesus, Paul literally says that those blessings come to us because we're in Christ, because we're adopted.

[\[00:36:44\]](#transcript-00-36-44-545) Like that, that includes our future, that includes our relationship, our current standing with Him.

[\[00:36:52\]](#transcript-00-36-52-546) I talked about how this is not just a doctrine, a book of doctrine, but it's stories.

[\[00:36:58\]](#transcript-00-36-58-547) You know, the prodigal son is probably a story that we all need to be reminded of over and over again.

[\[00:37:04\]](#transcript-00-37-04-548) But what's interesting is Jesus is defining this relationship that we have with the Father.

[\[00:37:12\]](#transcript-00-37-12-549) And this is probably a place where you see God using a human relationship, but it blows the whole human relationship to apart because even the Pharisees that were listening to this story is like, this is ridiculous.

[\[00:37:27\]](#transcript-00-37-27-550) They got angry with him.

[\[00:37:29\]](#transcript-00-37-29-551) This is ridiculous.

[\[00:37:30\]](#transcript-00-37-30-552) No one would ever do that.

[\[00:37:31\]](#transcript-00-37-31-553) He's like, that's the point.

[\[00:37:33\]](#transcript-00-37-33-554) What happens when the son comes home and he's trying to earn his forgiveness.

[\[00:37:37\]](#transcript-00-37-37-555) He's trying to earn his way back into the father's good presence.

[\[00:37:40\]](#transcript-00-37-40-556) Luke 15:20.

[\[00:37:41\]](#transcript-00-37-41-557) And he arose and came to his father.

[\[00:37:43\]](#transcript-00-37-43-558) But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him and kissed him before the son could even open his mouth.

[\[00:37:55\]](#transcript-00-37-55-559) You see, the father comes to us in our sin before we ever attempt to try to come to him and earn.

[\[00:38:02\]](#transcript-00-38-02-560) He just stops us.

[\[00:38:03\]](#transcript-00-38-03-561) He hushes us and says, Let me lavish you because this is how this relationship works.

[\[00:38:09\]](#transcript-00-38-09-562) You're not giving to me, I'm giving to you.

[\[00:38:13\]](#transcript-00-38-13-563) This is the most humiliating moment in this young man's life.

[\[00:38:17\]](#transcript-00-38-17-564) He has ruined his father's reputation, he has destroyed his life, he's lost everything.

[\[00:38:23\]](#transcript-00-38-23-565) He is at the worst he could possibly be.

[\[00:38:26\]](#transcript-00-38-26-566) He hasn't even had a chance to repent yet.

[\[00:38:29\]](#transcript-00-38-29-567) Like he was coming to do it, and Jesus stopped him.

[\[00:38:32\]](#transcript-00-38-32-568) I mean, Jesus in the story says that the Father stopped him.

[\[00:38:35\]](#transcript-00-38-35-569) So, what I want you to notice about this relationship that you have with the divine Father is that the divine father gives in a way our fathers cannot.

[\[00:38:46\]](#transcript-00-38-46-570) And they, and he holds us in a way that our fathers can never hold us.

[\[00:38:52\]](#transcript-00-38-52-571) He will never let us go, he will never forget to show up.

[\[00:38:55\]](#transcript-00-38-55-572) He will never change his mind.

[\[00:38:57\]](#transcript-00-38-57-573) He doesn't have good days and bad days.

[\[00:38:58\]](#transcript-00-38-58-574) We've all felt that, like, all right, God, let's test the waters here.

[\[00:39:01\]](#transcript-00-39-01-575) You're going to be there?

[\[00:39:02\]](#transcript-00-39-02-576) We're having a good day or a bad day today.

[\[00:39:04\]](#transcript-00-39-04-577) He doesn't have good days.

[\[00:39:06\]](#transcript-00-39-06-578) When he holds you, he holds you consistently.

[\[00:39:08\]](#transcript-00-39-08-579) And when he gives to you, he never asks for it back based upon how well you're doing.

[\[00:39:14\]](#transcript-00-39-14-580) Right?

[\[00:39:15\]](#transcript-00-39-15-581) And lastly, we have to remember that this relationship we have with him is unlike any other relationship.

[\[00:39:21\]](#transcript-00-39-21-582) It's forever.

[\[00:39:22\]](#transcript-00-39-22-583) It's started in this temporary world, but it goes on forever.

[\[00:39:27\]](#transcript-00-39-27-584) So we don't have to worry about whether our life ends and what's going to happen.

[\[00:39:31\]](#transcript-00-39-31-585) It's like, my life ends.

[\[00:39:32\]](#transcript-00-39-32-586) I'm going to be with my father.

[\[00:39:35\]](#transcript-00-39-35-587) The one who never fails me, who've always loved me, who's always ready to listen to me, who's never abandoned me.

[\[00:39:44\]](#transcript-00-39-44-588) And to help me understand this, he's given me a book.

[\[00:39:47\]](#transcript-00-39-47-589) He's given me the Holy Spirit, and he's given me the church.

[\[00:39:50\]](#transcript-00-39-50-590) He's given me a family.

[\[00:39:51\]](#transcript-00-39-51-591) And in that family, we sing about him, we pray together, we talk about, we learn more.

[\[00:39:59\]](#transcript-00-39-59-592) Jesus says that the family of God is the most important thing for him.

[\[00:40:03\]](#transcript-00-40-03-593) He goes, Why?

[\[00:40:03\]](#transcript-00-40-03-594) Because he died for it.

[\[00:40:04\]](#transcript-00-40-04-595) He says, I literally died for the church.

[\[00:40:07\]](#transcript-00-40-07-596) So I want you to redefine, no matter what your relationship with your father might be, good or bad, it could be good.

[\[00:40:13\]](#transcript-00-40-13-597) Doesn't it's going to end that way?

[\[00:40:15\]](#transcript-00-40-15-598) Right?

[\[00:40:17\]](#transcript-00-40-17-599) Don't let that define your relationship with your father going forward.

[\[00:40:20\]](#transcript-00-40-20-600) Allow God, who defined Himself?

[\[00:40:25\]](#transcript-00-40-25-601) This is why a good church that preaches the gospel faithfully week in and week out, it goes through the text and demonstrates for you your lack of capacity in any way, shape, or form to do anything that will

[\[00:40:36\]](#transcript-00-40-36-602) grab the attention of God other than his wrath, and that the way in which you grab his attention, it's impossible to please him without faith.

[\[00:40:44\]](#transcript-00-40-44-603) It's like, just believe me, child.

[\[00:40:47\]](#transcript-00-40-47-604) You want to please me?

[\[00:40:48\]](#transcript-00-40-48-605) Trust that I can do this.

[\[00:40:50\]](#transcript-00-40-50-606) Believe that, and I'll be happy with you.

[\[00:40:52\]](#transcript-00-40-52-607) That's nuts.

[\[00:40:54\]](#transcript-00-40-54-608) Believe I love you, I've forgiven you.

[\[00:40:56\]](#transcript-00-40-56-609) I will sustain you, and I'll come back and give you a new home.

[\[00:40:59\]](#transcript-00-40-59-610) You mean just believing that makes you happy?

[\[00:41:02\]](#transcript-00-41-02-611) It's like, yeah, yes, yes, it does.

[\[00:41:07\]](#transcript-00-41-07-612) Well, hopefully that was helpful for you.

[\[00:41:09\]](#transcript-00-41-09-613) And if you want to learn more on how to read the Bible in this way, this is definitely how I wrote this book: The Bible According to Jesus, and then Get Enough in Christ.

[\[00:41:18\]](#transcript-00-41-18-614) That book will help start with who you are in Jesus, and then you can transfer that to thinking about this particular.

[\[00:41:25\]](#transcript-00-41-25-615) If you can't afford any of that stuff, reach out to us, we'll give it to you.

[\[00:41:28\]](#transcript-00-41-28-616) If you want to have a dialogue with me or anybody else, we have a whole group, a wonderful community full of hundreds of people called the Theocast community.

[\[00:41:36\]](#transcript-00-41-36-617) And people are, we just had a recent missionary who hopped in there who was discouraged and needed to be encouraged, and she's finding a ton of encouragement.

[\[00:41:43\]](#transcript-00-41-43-618) That's in there.

[\[00:41:44\]](#transcript-00-41-44-619) Just, it's a wonderful place to go in and just free from social media garbage.

[\[00:41:49\]](#transcript-00-41-49-620) So, you can go look at that at theocast.org.

[\[00:41:52\]](#transcript-00-41-52-621) Hey, guys, real quick.

[\[00:41:53\]](#transcript-00-41-53-622) Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:41:57\]](#transcript-00-41-57-623) So, where do you go?

[\[00:41:58\]](#transcript-00-41-58-624) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:42:02\]](#transcript-00-42-02-625) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources are there: past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's

[\[00:42:14\]](#transcript-00-42-14-626) there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:42:16\]](#transcript-00-42-16-627) You can go check it out.

[\[00:42:17\]](#transcript-00-42-17-628) The link is in the description below.

---

### Stop Lawing the Gospel (w/ David Zahl)

*Published: June 24, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/stop-lawing-the-gospel-w-david-zahl*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/wnHLLGeLEU4)

Has the Christian life become an endless list of things to do? Jon Moffitt sits down with David Zahl to explore why believers so often drift from the freedom of the gospel back into performance and self-improvement. Together they unpack the difference between law and gospel, showing how Christ's finished work provides the rest and assurance Christians desperately need. A refreshing conversation about grace, faith, and the sufficiency of Christ.

* Drifting from gospel freedom back into performance and self-improvement
* The difference between law and gospel with David Zahl
* Christ’s finished work as rest and assurance
* Grace, faith, and the sufficiency of Christ

* [Mockingbird](https://mbird.com/) — David Zahl's ministry
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:13\]](#transcript-00-00-13-1) Welcome back to another episode of Theocast.

[\[00:00:15\]](#transcript-00-00-15-2) I'm your host, Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:00:17\]](#transcript-00-00-17-3) I'm pastor of Grace Reform Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:00:20\]](#transcript-00-00-20-4) And if this is your first time here, what I love to do with anyone that's able to join me is pull the clutter off the gospel and really let Christ shine, not only just in the gospels, but through

[\[00:00:31\]](#transcript-00-00-31-5) all of scripture and have important conversations that help us in a day where there's a lot of hopelessness and it feels as if we're constantly drowning in just our own sin and the sins of others.

[\[00:00:43\]](#transcript-00-00-43-6) So, hopefully today is refreshing for you, and this would be an encouragement to you.

[\[00:00:47\]](#transcript-00-00-47-7) If you want to learn more about what we do, we have all kinds of books and videos and a community available.

[\[00:00:51\]](#transcript-00-00-51-8) Just go to theocast.org.

[\[00:00:54\]](#transcript-00-00-54-9) Today is, man, a repeat, three Pete, four Pete.

[\[00:00:57\]](#transcript-00-00-57-10) I don't even know how many times David's been on here, but years and years ago, one of our first guests, David, came in and talked about one of my favorite books, Seculosity, one of my church's favorite books.

[\[00:01:08\]](#transcript-00-01-08-11) We did that book as our Bible study and they loved it.

[\[00:01:11\]](#transcript-00-01-11-12) But David Zahl, who's been a part of Mockingbird, for, did you say, is it?

[\[00:01:16\]](#transcript-00-01-16-13) What are you at?

[\[00:01:17\]](#transcript-00-01-17-14) Like, I think I shoot this last time, but is it 15 years?

[\[00:01:19\]](#transcript-00-01-19-15) 20 years?

[\[00:01:20\]](#transcript-00-01-20-16) How many years are you at now?

[\[00:01:21\]](#transcript-00-01-21-17) We're 19 years.

[\[00:01:23\]](#transcript-00-01-23-18) 19 years.

[\[00:01:24\]](#transcript-00-01-24-19) There you go.

[\[00:01:25\]](#transcript-00-01-25-20) Yeah.

[\[00:01:26\]](#transcript-00-01-26-21) Mockingbird is close to that big one.

[\[00:01:28\]](#transcript-00-01-28-22) Yeah.

[\[00:01:28\]](#transcript-00-01-28-23) And they produce podcasts, articles, magazine, book.

[\[00:01:33\]](#transcript-00-01-33-24) If you're thinking, man, I just need something that helps me think about Christ, gives me some discernment about Christ, and then how does this relate to often in our culture?

[\[00:01:42\]](#transcript-00-01-42-25) Or are you seeing Christ in the culture?

[\[00:01:44\]](#transcript-00-01-44-26) This is a great place to go.

[\[00:01:46\]](#transcript-00-01-46-27) What I love about Mockingbird is that you don't ever walk away going, that was offensive.

[\[00:01:51\]](#transcript-00-01-51-28) Why did they do that?

[\[00:01:53\]](#transcript-00-01-53-29) I just, there's, there are certain ministries that are like, wow, I've just never know what I'm going to get.

[\[00:01:57\]](#transcript-00-01-57-30) And then whenever I engage with Mockingbird, I've always been encouraged.

[\[00:02:00\]](#transcript-00-02-00-31) So I would encourage you guys to go and reap the benefits.

[\[00:02:04\]](#transcript-00-02-04-32) They have, I mean, I don't even know how many articles do you guys have on your website?

[\[00:02:08\]](#transcript-00-02-08-33) It's insanity how much you guys produce over there.

[\[00:02:12\]](#transcript-00-02-12-34) Do you even know how many articles you have?

[\[00:02:13\]](#transcript-00-02-13-35) Thousands.

[\[00:02:15\]](#transcript-00-02-15-36) Thousands and thousands.

[\[00:02:16\]](#transcript-00-02-16-37) I think our pace is like eight to ten new ones a week, which we might dial down.

[\[00:02:23\]](#transcript-00-02-23-38) That's a lot.

[\[00:02:25\]](#transcript-00-02-25-39) Your poor editor.

[\[00:02:27\]](#transcript-00-02-27-40) Yep.

[\[00:02:27\]](#transcript-00-02-27-41) Yeah.

[\[00:02:28\]](#transcript-00-02-28-42) Well, we had David on last time to talk about his book, the newest book that he had coming out.

[\[00:02:34\]](#transcript-00-02-34-43) And this time they're doing a remake of a book that they put out, uh, what was it, 11 years ago?

[\[00:02:38\]](#transcript-00-02-38-44) I think it's what you said, 2015.

[\[00:02:40\]](#transcript-00-02-40-45) One of the first books I ever read from the ministry, which is Law and Gospel.

[\[00:02:45\]](#transcript-00-02-45-46) And they have decided to update it, and we're going to talk a little bit about the update, but then really just the subject in general, because I love the fact that law-gospel and law-gospel distinction and understanding this important

[\[00:02:59\]](#transcript-00-02-59-47) historical subject has seen a rise more.

[\[00:03:02\]](#transcript-00-03-02-48) More people talking about it, more people writing on it is good for the Christian culture and the world at large.

[\[00:03:09\]](#transcript-00-03-09-49) This is a good thing, right?

[\[00:03:10\]](#transcript-00-03-10-50) Especially, there's been a lot of conversations about the law throughout Christian history.

[\[00:03:15\]](#transcript-00-03-15-51) But this distinction, it's like the gospel gets thrown to the side, and we just want to emphasize the law.

[\[00:03:21\]](#transcript-00-03-21-52) So, anyways, David, it's good to have you on here.

[\[00:03:24\]](#transcript-00-03-24-53) And so, talk to us.

[\[00:03:26\]](#transcript-00-03-26-54) We're just having this conversation.

[\[00:03:28\]](#transcript-00-03-28-55) so I want to just do a little bit of a repeat.

[\[00:03:29\]](#transcript-00-03-29-56) But you're updating the book a little bit, but there's a section I want to emphasize about where I think people might resonate with this.

[\[00:03:36\]](#transcript-00-03-36-57) You were talking about kind of

[\[00:03:39\]](#transcript-00-03-39-58) the target of the book, who the book is really kind of targeting as far as what people's experiences when they're thinking about their standing, their experience, or even their own sin.

[\[00:03:50\]](#transcript-00-03-50-59) So, kind of talk a little bit about this, how you guys have updated the book to approach people where they're at right now.

[\[00:03:58\]](#transcript-00-03-58-60) Yeah, thanks, John.

[\[00:03:59\]](#transcript-00-03-59-61) Thanks for having me back with Theocasta.

[\[00:04:00\]](#transcript-00-04-00-62) Love this program, love this ministry.

[\[00:04:02\]](#transcript-00-04-02-63) And of course, your ministry has meant a lot to me personally, so in your friendship, yeah, for sure.

[\[00:04:08\]](#transcript-00-04-08-64) Um, yeah, so we got this uh new 10th anniversary edition of Law and Gospel, and um, it was probably the best-selling thing that we'd put out and felt like it came together pretty quickly in a dynamic and fun

[\[00:04:23\]](#transcript-00-04-23-65) way.

[\[00:04:23\]](#transcript-00-04-23-66) That myself and two colleagues at the time wrote this thing, and we'd always wanted to revisit it to kind of just make it smoother and slightly more professional.

[\[00:04:33\]](#transcript-00-04-33-67) And when we went back to do it, what we noticed was that the target of the book, we were trying to, we're kind of the jumping off point was what we perceived as like the cruel optimism that we

[\[00:04:45\]](#transcript-00-04-45-68) saw in the church and outside the church.

[\[00:04:49\]](#transcript-00-04-49-69) I write that we wrote: people both inside and outside of the church suffered from a blind confidence about the future and themselves that was setting them up for deep disillusionment as well as putting them at odds with the

[\[00:05:00\]](#transcript-00-05-00-70) God of the Bible.

[\[00:05:02\]](#transcript-00-05-02-71) And then, but what we noticed is like that doesn't really apply in the same way.

[\[00:05:06\]](#transcript-00-05-06-72) Optimism doesn't feel like the most potent spiritual condition.

[\[00:05:12\]](#transcript-00-05-12-73) So we said, Today, things have shifted such that our opening diagnosis no longer applies in the same way.

[\[00:05:18\]](#transcript-00-05-18-74) Today's burden is much more one of despair and hopelessness.

[\[00:05:22\]](#transcript-00-05-22-75) Young people feel like they've been failed by the institutions they were raised to trust.

[\[00:05:26\]](#transcript-00-05-26-76) Many doubt that they'll ever be able to afford a house, let alone find a reliable spouse or raise a family.

[\[00:05:32\]](#transcript-00-05-32-77) Purpose and meaning feel increasingly out of reach in the age of the algorithm, and then, you know, sort of the gist of this that we can talk about as we write: the charge that you and I think too

[\[00:05:42\]](#transcript-00-05-42-78) highly of ourselves may still pertain to those within the church with its undiminished appeals to willpower and the human potential to partner meaningfully with God.

[\[00:05:51\]](#transcript-00-05-51-79) But outside the church, that high anthropology takes a different form.

[\[00:05:56\]](#transcript-00-05-56-80) These days, our ironclad confidence has more to do with future doom than future success.

[\[00:06:02\]](#transcript-00-06-02-81) Yet, pessimism, it turns out, can be just as self-righteous as its inverse.

[\[00:06:06\]](#transcript-00-06-06-82) To reclaim a sense of agency, we blame and scapegoat and divide the world into all sorts of categories, or maybe we make ourselves feel better by striking a more nihilistic pose, either way, humility seems lacking.

[\[00:06:20\]](#transcript-00-06-20-83) So that's the law of gospel distinction, is one that really dismantles our pride, I think, and is an assault on the human propensity to take God's place, to sort of boot God off the throne, which is an unsuccessful

[\[00:06:37\]](#transcript-00-06-37-84) thing anyway.

[\[00:06:38\]](#transcript-00-06-38-85) But it's just interesting to me in 10 years how much we felt that the audience, the spiritual conditions that we see out there had shifted a little bit.

[\[00:06:48\]](#transcript-00-06-48-86) The underlying like hubris, self-righteousness, and despair were similar, but they just took on slightly different forms.

[\[00:06:56\]](#transcript-00-06-56-87) Yeah, I think that is, it's so important as communicators of the gospel.

[\[00:07:01\]](#transcript-00-07-01-88) As I was taught in seminary and thankful, not only do you exegete the text, you need to exegete your audience.

[\[00:07:06\]](#transcript-00-07-06-89) Like, who are you speaking to?

[\[00:07:07\]](#transcript-00-07-07-90) Because it can change how you talk to them.

[\[00:07:10\]](#transcript-00-07-10-91) You know, are you talking to rebellious people who need to be rebuked?

[\[00:07:13\]](#transcript-00-07-13-92) Are you talking to broken people who need to be helped?

[\[00:07:16\]](#transcript-00-07-16-93) Like, they're both broken, but what is it they're going to be needing?

[\[00:07:20\]](#transcript-00-07-20-94) Yeah, it's the optimistic, like, I think the prosperity gospel, a follow Jesus and everything will go well, has fallen on its face, and the culture sees that.

[\[00:07:31\]](#transcript-00-07-31-95) Like, oh, wait, this doesn't work.

[\[00:07:33\]](#transcript-00-07-33-96) Just because I try harder or I'm a good moral person doesn't mean that my life is going to turn out well.

[\[00:07:39\]](#transcript-00-07-39-97) And I think this is a fair observation that people are a lot more pessimistic.

[\[00:07:43\]](#transcript-00-07-43-98) I know that you go through enough regime change, presidential downfall, governmental conspiracy, whatever it is that you want to put in there, people start to just think, I don't think anything's going well.

[\[00:07:55\]](#transcript-00-07-55-99) And then it's easy to point the finger and say, well, it's your, you know, we create our own little laws and we become our own little gods.

[\[00:08:00\]](#transcript-00-08-00-100) It's like, well, it's your, it's, you're the reason why this is all going.

[\[00:08:04\]](#transcript-00-08-04-101) So the gospel is: if I can fix you, then my future will be better because it's, I can't fix me to make it better.

[\[00:08:11\]](#transcript-00-08-11-102) I already tried that.

[\[00:08:12\]](#transcript-00-08-12-103) So clearly, it's not me.

[\[00:08:14\]](#transcript-00-08-14-104) It's now you.

[\[00:08:15\]](#transcript-00-08-15-105) Right.

[\[00:08:15\]](#transcript-00-08-15-106) And that becomes a create a really judgmental.

[\[00:08:18\]](#transcript-00-08-18-107) This is where, like, you know, so many people find themselves trapped in social media because it's easy to ignore your own problems and say you're the problem right you're the problem and then you have these reaction videos where

[\[00:08:34\]](#transcript-00-08-34-108) it's like see here's the problem uh so, i think either one, whether you have an optimistic view of life, if I do well, God will bless that, or life is the way it is because, you know, there are

[\[00:08:45\]](#transcript-00-08-45-109) sinners in the world.

[\[00:08:46\]](#transcript-00-08-46-110) And if they get their act together, then the world would be better, which sounds a lot like Christian nationalism, but we'll let that go, anyways.

[\[00:08:56\]](#transcript-00-08-56-111) Oh man, no, I and I also see, like, just when you think about the pessimism and the despair, you see, among especially like young evangelicals, like there's a resurgence of monastic discipline.

[\[00:09:12\]](#transcript-00-09-12-112) And you know, whether that be like around hurry, or whether that be around like living more like Jesus in this way, or Or, you know, just just truly following Christ in a more, I don't know, rigorous way, like

[\[00:09:27\]](#transcript-00-09-27-113) they're dying for something that's true and honest and helpful because life is so tough.

[\[00:09:33\]](#transcript-00-09-33-114) But naturally, what always fills that vacuum is more law.

[\[00:09:37\]](#transcript-00-09-37-115) It's just, it's like it's a different form of it.

[\[00:09:41\]](#transcript-00-09-41-116) It might not be the reformed version.

[\[00:09:44\]](#transcript-00-09-44-117) It might not be the prosperity gospel version, but I see like everywhere I go, people want the authors that have become super popular right now are speaking to that pessimism in an accessible, winsome way, but what they're really

[\[00:09:56\]](#transcript-00-09-56-118) speaking to it with is the law, and so there's this distinction is nowhere still.

[\[00:10:01\]](#transcript-00-10-01-119) I think.

[\[00:10:01\]](#transcript-00-10-01-120) Um, I would love to hop on what you just said there, David, because that's important.

[\[00:10:05\]](#transcript-00-10-05-121) But I think what I want to do first is just create almost some terms so that people don't put their definition.

[\[00:10:11\]](#transcript-00-10-11-122) We want to maybe give a biblical definition because what you just said there is, I couldn't agree with you more.

[\[00:10:16\]](#transcript-00-10-16-123) The more books you look at that are coming out, it's like they sound right, but there's something that, like, when you and I read them, they're like, man, you said a lot of right things, but the application is

[\[00:10:29\]](#transcript-00-10-29-124) not right.

[\[00:10:31\]](#transcript-00-10-31-125) So, the law, according to scripture, if we like if you dumb it down to the way in which Jesus even defines the law, but it's do this and live.

[\[00:10:40\]](#transcript-00-10-40-126) The law isn't bad stuff.

[\[00:10:41\]](#transcript-00-10-41-127) Sometimes we think the law is bad, it's really bad for sinners who want to become righteous by it.

[\[00:10:46\]](#transcript-00-10-46-128) That's real bad for them.

[\[00:10:48\]](#transcript-00-10-48-129) But the law in itself is good.

[\[00:10:49\]](#transcript-00-10-49-130) And that's why Jesus says, do these good things, these things that are pleasing and right before the Lord, do them perfectly, and you will be accepted before God.

[\[00:10:57\]](#transcript-00-10-57-131) And so that's a way of understanding the law.

[\[00:10:59\]](#transcript-00-10-59-132) Do this and live.

[\[00:11:00\]](#transcript-00-11-00-133) The requirements of being accepted before God.

[\[00:11:04\]](#transcript-00-11-04-134) And the reason why that's important is that you can identify passages that really lean you this way.

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-135) I think Psalm 1 and 2 is a great example of like, who's the righteous man that walks in the upright way?

[\[00:11:14\]](#transcript-00-11-14-136) Well, he doesn't mean comparatively to the rest of the world, and he doesn't mean

[\[00:11:20\]](#transcript-00-11-20-137) the majority of your life.

[\[00:11:22\]](#transcript-00-11-22-138) He means a perfect and righteous man who walks upright.

[\[00:11:24\]](#transcript-00-11-24-139) and who is this man?

[\[00:11:26\]](#transcript-00-11-26-140) Well, we learn it's Christ in Psalm 2.

[\[00:11:28\]](#transcript-00-11-28-141) So when we're talking about law, I think that David and I would agree that those who walk perfectly and upright before the Lord will receive his acceptance, but we have to emphasize the P and the perfect, perfect, not

[\[00:11:45\]](#transcript-00-11-45-142) just generally.

[\[00:11:46\]](#transcript-00-11-46-143) And that's just the demand of the law, right?

[\[00:11:48\]](#transcript-00-11-48-144) Just one last statement, I'll throw it to you, David.

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-145) And you can give your perspective on it.

[\[00:11:52\]](#transcript-00-11-52-146) But, like, when James says, if you fail in one area of the law, you failed in all areas of the law, because the law comes to us in completion.

[\[00:11:59\]](#transcript-00-11-59-147) It's all righteousness over all of the law.

[\[00:12:03\]](#transcript-00-12-03-148) And it's important that we understand it in that way.

[\[00:12:06\]](#transcript-00-12-06-149) That doesn't mean that we don't obey the law later.

[\[00:12:08\]](#transcript-00-12-08-150) You get into this in the books as far as the fruit of the gospel as it relates to the law.

[\[00:12:13\]](#transcript-00-12-13-151) But yeah, your thoughts on just a general idea of helping people understand, like, hey, this is what the law means in scripture.

[\[00:12:20\]](#transcript-00-12-20-152) Yeah, I mean, in the scripture, we're talking about a command attached to a condition.

[\[00:12:25\]](#transcript-00-12-25-153) We're talking about God's commandments, which are attached to, which are if you do this, then this will happen.

[\[00:12:31\]](#transcript-00-12-31-154) It's an if-then proposition.

[\[00:12:33\]](#transcript-00-12-33-155) And it's not always phrased exactly that way, right?

[\[00:12:37\]](#transcript-00-12-37-156) But that's what the content of the law is: it's the shape of righteousness.

[\[00:12:41\]](#transcript-00-12-41-157) You know, when we're talking about the law of God, we're talking about that code of ethics, even or it's spiritual life that together, you know, forms the picture of righteousness.

[\[00:12:54\]](#transcript-00-12-54-158) And again, the content of it, at least in the Bible, I think there's ways the echoes we receive of the law, what I call the little L laws in society, which are which we hear very similarly.

[\[00:13:05\]](#transcript-00-13-05-159) But those are more arbitrary.

[\[00:13:07\]](#transcript-00-13-07-160) But the ones we find in, like, yeah, I mean, I always think, I always go to the Sermon on the Mount, and I think of the command: do not worry about anything.

[\[00:13:19\]](#transcript-00-13-19-161) That is a good, and that's those are the words of Jesus, and it's the law.

[\[00:13:24\]](#transcript-00-13-24-162) But who here thinks that life wouldn't be better if we didn't worry, right?

[\[00:13:28\]](#transcript-00-13-28-163) Like, we'd have, that would be, that would be, we didn't be in perfect relationship of trust with our creator, you know.

[\[00:13:36\]](#transcript-00-13-36-164) But of course, if you're a person who's struggles with anxiety and is just told not to worry, like, how well does it work?

[\[00:13:44\]](#transcript-00-13-44-165) What the, what the What the function of the law in that respect is what the law actually does is it reveals how much you worry.

[\[00:13:54\]](#transcript-00-13-54-166) If I'm being told, yeah, do not worry about anything, all of a sudden, I think, well, gosh, I seem to worry about everything.

[\[00:14:02\]](#transcript-00-14-02-167) And what hope is there for me?

[\[00:14:04\]](#transcript-00-14-04-168) And then, of course, you get to the gospel, which is the problem: that you know, nothing impossible with man is possible with God.

[\[00:14:11\]](#transcript-00-14-11-169) So, but the law has all sorts of functions.

[\[00:14:14\]](#transcript-00-14-14-170) It just doesn't ever seem to inspire that which it commands.

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-171) And as you said, what it commands really is: love God with all your heart, strength, and mind, and your neighbor as yourself.

[\[00:14:27\]](#transcript-00-14-27-172) Like, be perfect, therefore, as your Father in heaven is perfect.

[\[00:14:31\]](#transcript-00-14-31-173) So, and of course, the response to that is: everyone, well, how could this, who could do these things?

[\[00:14:37\]](#transcript-00-14-37-174) That's right.

[\[00:14:39\]](#transcript-00-14-39-175) I love the illustration of the Sermon on the Mount.

[\[00:14:44\]](#transcript-00-14-44-176) You have our God and King, who Philippians 2, who lowers himself and becomes a human, and then he stands before us, and Jesus says, I've come to seek and to save the lost.

[\[00:14:55\]](#transcript-00-14-55-177) The problem was a lot of these people didn't think they were lost, and so Jesus kept graciously showing them all the ways in which they were lost.

[\[00:15:03\]](#transcript-00-15-03-178) Don't worry.

[\[00:15:05\]](#transcript-00-15-05-179) He wasn't telling them so they wouldn't worry.

[\[00:15:06\]](#transcript-00-15-06-180) He's telling them, see how you worry?

[\[00:15:09\]](#transcript-00-15-09-181) That's because you need me.

[\[00:15:12\]](#transcript-00-15-12-182) I mean, But he also targets the other biggies that not only worry, but he targets money, give away everything that's right, you know, and sex.

[\[00:15:22\]](#transcript-00-15-22-183) You know, do not, you know, if you've even lusted after a woman in your heart, you've committed adultery.

[\[00:15:27\]](#transcript-00-15-27-184) Like, this is the content of the law.

[\[00:15:29\]](#transcript-00-15-29-185) And we, I think we all agree that a more charitable, less like lustful, and certainly less worried society would be wonderful and would be in accordance with God's plan.

[\[00:15:40\]](#transcript-00-15-40-186) However, what you know, if if If it's true that Jesus is interested in faith, and I believe it is, That um, then how is faith created?

[\[00:15:54\]](#transcript-00-15-54-187) Well, it's usually a demolishing of faith in yourself and in your own abilities to keep the law.

[\[00:16:01\]](#transcript-00-16-01-188) After which you finally cry, uncle, and say, Well, I can't do this.

[\[00:16:05\]](#transcript-00-16-05-189) You know,

[\[00:16:07\]](#transcript-00-16-07-190) Is there help for me?

[\[00:16:09\]](#transcript-00-16-09-191) Is there any hope for me?

[\[00:16:11\]](#transcript-00-16-11-192) And that's where our Jesus as Savior, I think, has a whole lot to say to us.

[\[00:16:18\]](#transcript-00-16-18-193) Yes.

[\[00:16:20\]](#transcript-00-16-20-194) You don't get there very often unless the law is just sort of assaulting you.

[\[00:16:26\]](#transcript-00-16-26-195) Because the temptation is to believe in our own virtue and our own efficacy at all times.

[\[00:16:33\]](#transcript-00-16-33-196) Yeah.

[\[00:16:34\]](#transcript-00-16-34-197) And

[\[00:16:35\]](#transcript-00-16-35-198) yes, I think self.

[\[00:16:36\]](#transcript-00-16-36-199) This is why I think I was, I'm paraphrasing Luther who didn't say this, but like, this is why you're he said a version of like good works are more, you know, um, spiritually poisonous than your bad works because

[\[00:16:50\]](#transcript-00-16-50-200) you're tempted to put your faith in your own good works, and that is that's not what we're, um, that's not what justifies, that's not the content of salvation.

[\[00:17:03\]](#transcript-00-17-03-201) It's the faith in Christ.

[\[00:17:05\]](#transcript-00-17-05-202) Yeah, I think that if you go back and look at the beginning of the story that our God gives us, so it's like, hey, I'm going to give you this inspired book and I'm going to teach you a

[\[00:17:15\]](#transcript-00-17-15-203) pattern.

[\[00:17:16\]](#transcript-00-17-16-204) And the pattern begins in chapter three.

[\[00:17:18\]](#transcript-00-17-18-205) It's like, I created a world and humanity destroyed it.

[\[00:17:22\]](#transcript-00-17-22-206) And what's interesting is that the law was given, which was good and right and good for them.

[\[00:17:28\]](#transcript-00-17-28-207) And there was nothing wrong with it as far as like be fruitful and multiply and don't eat of that fruit.

[\[00:17:32\]](#transcript-00-17-32-208) Like, these were all, these were not tyrannical laws, right?

[\[00:17:35\]](#transcript-00-17-35-209) But what does Satan do?

[\[00:17:36\]](#transcript-00-17-36-210) What he always does, he twists God's good law?

[\[00:17:39\]](#transcript-00-17-39-211) He twists God's good word and makes us doubt our God and King.

[\[00:17:44\]](#transcript-00-17-44-212) And then, when Jesus comes to them in the garden and talks to Adam and Eve, and He expresses what they have done: like, here's your failure, Satan.

[\[00:17:53\]](#transcript-00-17-53-213) Here's your judgment.

[\[00:17:54\]](#transcript-00-17-54-214) And what does he give Adam and Eve?

[\[00:17:56\]](#transcript-00-17-56-215) No obligation and all promise of restoration through him, through the seed of Eve, right?

[\[00:18:02\]](#transcript-00-18-02-216) So that's the pattern, the pattern is: hey, the law is good, but we violate it constantly.

[\[00:18:07\]](#transcript-00-18-07-217) And God's response to our violation of the law is not more law, it's not a cleansing of, all right, I cleanse you.

[\[00:18:13\]](#transcript-00-18-13-218) Now let's set you back up to not fail again.

[\[00:18:16\]](#transcript-00-18-16-219) He literally says that he restores such that means there's forgiveness of sins.

[\[00:18:22\]](#transcript-00-18-22-220) And the thing that Adam was supposed to do is be righteous.

[\[00:18:25\]](#transcript-00-18-25-221) He was supposed to obey, and he didn't obey.

[\[00:18:27\]](#transcript-00-18-27-222) This is why Paul says, well, that's why we need a second Adam who does obey, who did obey, and his name is Jesus.

[\[00:18:34\]](#transcript-00-18-34-223) And that's the pattern right in the beginning of the book.

[\[00:18:37\]](#transcript-00-18-37-224) It's judgment against Satan for the deception that he brings to us.

[\[00:18:42\]](#transcript-00-18-42-225) This is Colossians 3.

[\[00:18:43\]](#transcript-00-18-43-226) He delivers us out of the domain of darkness and full restoration, and that includes righteousness.

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-227) So, if we switch over to the gospel, the gospel is, I feel like it's a lot of evangelicalism, I knew I grew up in this.

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-228) And no fault to my father, he was doing the best he was trained to do, but I really got emphasis on forgiveness, right?

[\[00:19:04\]](#transcript-00-19-04-229) A real big emphasis on forgiveness.

[\[00:19:06\]](#transcript-00-19-06-230) But then it was like, now prove righteousness.

[\[00:19:09\]](#transcript-00-19-09-231) Like you've been forgiven, slate is clean, don't mess up.

[\[00:19:13\]](#transcript-00-19-13-232) And that's where the title of this podcast comes in, a little bit of a switch.

[\[00:19:17\]](#transcript-00-19-17-233) And I think what you were getting at, so this is a long back to a year point is that we're starting to law the gospel.

[\[00:19:23\]](#transcript-00-19-23-234) We're lawing the gospel at this moment where there's cleansing.

[\[00:19:27\]](#transcript-00-19-27-235) Oh, great, Jesus cleansed us.

[\[00:19:29\]](#transcript-00-19-29-236) But then there's also what we would say: the big word is imputed righteousness or Jesus.

[\[00:19:37\]](#transcript-00-19-37-237) In order for you to be accepted before God, it's not that you're empty.

[\[00:19:41\]](#transcript-00-19-41-238) You don't, you, you know, it's like if you got invited to a party and the party was like, you can only come here if you got a million dollars in the bank.

[\[00:19:48\]](#transcript-00-19-48-239) And you show up with nothing, and you're like, At least I'm not in debt.

[\[00:19:51\]](#transcript-00-19-51-240) You're like, Well, the requirement wasn't debt-free, the requirement was a million dollars.

[\[00:19:57\]](#transcript-00-19-57-241) And so, when we show up to heaven, it's not like, hey, look, I kept my account.

[\[00:20:00\]](#transcript-00-20-00-242) If you know, I kept myself out of debt.

[\[00:20:02\]](#transcript-00-20-02-243) It's like, no, you needed to produce that which no one can produce, only Jesus can.

[\[00:20:07\]](#transcript-00-20-07-244) So, the fullness of the gospel is you're forgiven for how you have failed and you're accepted for righteousness you didn't commit, you didn't do right.

[\[00:20:17\]](#transcript-00-20-17-245) So that's the fullness of the gospel.

[\[00:20:18\]](#transcript-00-20-18-246) And the law, when we say we're lawing our gospel, and I'll throw this back over to you, David, because I think this is what you were trying to get at with the book.

[\[00:20:25\]](#transcript-00-20-25-247) Is that we may give people forgiveness, but then we give them law to make their life better in their own righteousness.

[\[00:20:33\]](#transcript-00-20-33-248) Yeah, it's the, I mean, we've talked about it as gospel or law, gospel, law.

[\[00:20:39\]](#transcript-00-20-39-249) It's very, very common because I want to say with sympathy and compassion that I think life is confusing and that it's, we want a roadmap, we want to sort of be told what to do.

[\[00:20:53\]](#transcript-00-20-53-250) We need some help.

[\[00:20:54\]](#transcript-00-20-54-251) The problem is that we presume that Christians now have this new relationship to the law that involves them being able to fulfill it and that the sort of the whole instead of this imputed righteousness, we believe that we've

[\[00:21:08\]](#transcript-00-21-08-252) been given sort of inherent righteousness, like the Holy Spirit functions as like spiritual steroids almost to allow us to now, as Christians, as regenerate believers, to fulfill the law.

[\[00:21:22\]](#transcript-00-21-22-253) And what we find out is that, in fact,

[\[00:21:27\]](#transcript-00-21-27-254) the old Adam still lives, you know, that we're constantly in this battle and this spiritual struggle, and that the old Adam is being put to death through the law rather than us hearing the law in a new respect.

[\[00:21:40\]](#transcript-00-21-40-255) So, yeah, I guess there's lots of very

[\[00:21:46\]](#transcript-00-21-46-256) There's euphemisms for the law that crop up that we talk about in the book a little bit.

[\[00:21:52\]](#transcript-00-21-52-257) But application tends to be a euphemism for the law.

[\[00:21:55\]](#transcript-00-21-55-258) It's the now, you have been forgiven, so basically act like it.

[\[00:21:59\]](#transcript-00-21-59-259) And I want someone to act like a forgiven person.

[\[00:22:03\]](#transcript-00-22-03-260) I want myself to be able to do that.

[\[00:22:05\]](#transcript-00-22-05-261) Do I believe that they get there through the application of fresh law, like or a gospelized form of the law?

[\[00:22:12\]](#transcript-00-22-12-262) Or do I believe that it's still the promises of God?

[\[00:22:14\]](#transcript-00-22-14-263) It's still the grace of God, which is, which has the power to create that which isn't even in the even there.

[\[00:22:23\]](#transcript-00-22-23-264) Virtue is another euphemism for the law.

[\[00:22:28\]](#transcript-00-22-28-265) Notes, you know, when people say, I've got a few notes for you, you know, that's always the law that has come back in.

[\[00:22:35\]](#transcript-00-22-35-266) And so

[\[00:22:38\]](#transcript-00-22-38-267) sometimes people hear this as you're sounding like despairing, like there's nothing I can do as a Christian to sort of cultivate a relationship with God.

[\[00:22:47\]](#transcript-00-22-47-268) It's like that's not really what I'm saying, but what I am saying is that the second I give you too much to do, you're going to turn it into a justifying law that's going to drive you further from

[\[00:22:58\]](#transcript-00-22-58-269) Christ rather than closer to him.

[\[00:23:01\]](#transcript-00-23-01-270) And yeah, but there's so many different ways that we sneak the law back in because a life of blind or trust in our Savior and the Holy Spirit's sort of agency in the world, it's just, it's scary.

[\[00:23:18\]](#transcript-00-23-18-271) And so we sneak the law back in.

[\[00:23:21\]](#transcript-00-23-21-272) And before you know it, the Christian faith, which felt like freedom, starts to feel like a burden obligation.

[\[00:23:28\]](#transcript-00-23-28-273) And before long, I hate to say it, people start to hate God because

[\[00:23:33\]](#transcript-00-23-33-274) they feel abated and switched, and they feel like they were sold a false bill of goods.

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-275) That's right.

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-276) And I really don't, that grieves me.

[\[00:23:43\]](#transcript-00-23-43-277) And that's part of what this book is about.

[\[00:23:44\]](#transcript-00-23-44-278) When you don't have a firm understanding of the distinction between the law and the gospel, the gravitational pull of the human heart, which is towards control, will always go towards the law.

[\[00:23:55\]](#transcript-00-23-55-279) And so it's not a way of like, it's not a formula that's like kind of straitjacketing scripture.

[\[00:24:01\]](#transcript-00-24-01-280) It's actually a way of safeguarding scripture from becoming nothing but law.

[\[00:24:06\]](#transcript-00-24-06-281) That's right.

[\[00:24:07\]](#transcript-00-24-07-282) And retaining that wild transformative power that you have with the gospel proclaimed to sinners.

[\[00:24:16\]](#transcript-00-24-16-283) Yeah, I think that

[\[00:24:19\]](#transcript-00-24-19-284) to give maybe like a personal anecdote to what you're saying, I can remember the first time I read Galatians where Paul says the way that you have begun is the way in which you continue, right?

[\[00:24:30\]](#transcript-00-24-30-285) So they were coming into the faith by Christ, and then they were trying to now control the flesh and live a Christian life by the means of the flesh, like the law.

[\[00:24:41\]](#transcript-00-24-41-286) And Paul, uh, in a very Pauline way, rebukes them very harshly and says, This is witchcraft.

[\[00:24:53\]](#transcript-00-24-53-287) He gets so angry with them.

[\[00:24:55\]](#transcript-00-24-55-288) But I feel his, I feel that intimacy with him when he says this is witchcraft because it is so evil to think that Christ isn't sufficient, not only to save us, but to sustain us, and that we forget

[\[00:25:09\]](#transcript-00-25-09-289) what the law truly is, right?

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-290) The law, again, it is the law is good, it's right, it's holy, it's necessary, but it can't change the heart.

[\[00:25:18\]](#transcript-00-25-18-291) It's like the rules of a game can't make you play the game, they just tell you how the game is played.

[\[00:25:24\]](#transcript-00-25-24-292) So, I don't care how much I know about basketball, it won't, the rule of the game won't cause me to pick up the basketball and put it in the hoop.

[\[00:25:31\]](#transcript-00-25-31-293) Like, that requires my body, and we're over here saying, but the more rules you know, the better you'll shoot that basketball.

[\[00:25:37\]](#transcript-00-25-37-294) And it's like, that's technically not true, right?

[\[00:25:40\]](#transcript-00-25-40-295) That's not how it works.

[\[00:25:42\]](#transcript-00-25-42-296) And so we are saying, right?

[\[00:25:45\]](#transcript-00-25-45-297) So you're talking about this animation of

[\[00:25:49\]](#transcript-00-25-49-298) you were saying things like the spirit becomes like the steroids.

[\[00:25:52\]](#transcript-00-25-52-299) And so we have these like expectations that we should see this massive change of in performance.

[\[00:25:58\]](#transcript-00-25-58-300) And what's the greatest call to Christians have, and the thing that helps me is to walk by faith.

[\[00:26:05\]](#transcript-00-26-05-301) Right now, we want to obey, we need to obey, but the call is where our heart and mind find their rest.

[\[00:26:14\]](#transcript-00-26-14-302) And that rest is not in the law.

[\[00:26:15\]](#transcript-00-26-15-303) It's not faith in the law.

[\[00:26:17\]](#transcript-00-26-17-304) We believe the law is true and right, but we're not trusting the law to change us.

[\[00:26:21\]](#transcript-00-26-21-305) We're not trusting the law to animate us.

[\[00:26:23\]](#transcript-00-26-23-306) We're trusting he who began a good work and you will complete it, right?

[\[00:26:27\]](#transcript-00-26-27-307) He who laid his life down for you and has brought you up by his love and his care and will not separate himself from you.

[\[00:26:35\]](#transcript-00-26-35-308) We then animate love because of the love he gives us.

[\[00:26:39\]](#transcript-00-26-39-309) So that's the animation that's in there.

[\[00:26:41\]](#transcript-00-26-41-310) And so when we're talking about a law gospel distinction, I think it's important.

[\[00:26:46\]](#transcript-00-26-46-311) I want to go back to what you were saying: is that there's a lot of books that are being written and they hit the nerve that you and I feel as well.

[\[00:26:54\]](#transcript-00-26-54-312) Like, I don't like the way I treat my wife, I don't like what goes on in my heart and my head.

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-313) I don't like what's going on in our culture.

[\[00:27:01\]](#transcript-00-27-01-314) And so, there's these are all, I would say, good diagnosis.

[\[00:27:05\]](#transcript-00-27-05-315) You know, you can, you can, um, uh, you can get put a car accident in front of 10 people, and everybody will agree that's a car accident.

[\[00:27:14\]](#transcript-00-27-14-316) Now, why that car accident happened, we're probably going to get some disagreements on it, right?

[\[00:27:20\]](#transcript-00-27-20-317) Or how to fix it from here going forward.

[\[00:27:22\]](#transcript-00-27-22-318) But we can all agree.

[\[00:27:23\]](#transcript-00-27-23-319) So, diagnosing a problem isn't the hard part.

[\[00:27:25\]](#transcript-00-27-25-320) And I think people are really good at diagnosing problems.

[\[00:27:28\]](#transcript-00-27-28-321) Therefore, we're like, wow, if they're good at diagnosing the problem, maybe they're good at the solution as well.

[\[00:27:32\]](#transcript-00-27-32-322) And I agree with you: the solutions that are coming our way are not Christ is sufficient for you.

[\[00:27:39\]](#transcript-00-27-39-323) The solution is: here's how to fix it yourself.

[\[00:27:44\]](#transcript-00-27-44-324) Do you ever wake up already feeling spiritually behind?

[\[00:27:47\]](#transcript-00-27-47-325) Like no matter how much you pray, how much you read, or how much you serve, it's just never quite enough.

[\[00:27:54\]](#transcript-00-27-54-326) Well, friend, you're not lazy and you're not faithless.

[\[00:27:58\]](#transcript-00-27-58-327) You're tired and you're not alone.

[\[00:28:01\]](#transcript-00-28-01-328) So many of us are living in a quiet prison.

[\[00:28:03\]](#transcript-00-28-03-329) The one that whispers, Grace saved you, but now it's up to you to keep it up.

[\[00:28:08\]](#transcript-00-28-08-330) The one that turns rest into guilt.

[\[00:28:11\]](#transcript-00-28-11-331) The one that makes you wonder if God is a little disappointed in you today.

[\[00:28:15\]](#transcript-00-28-15-332) I wrote a new book just for you.

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-333) It's called Enough in Christ: Freedom from a Performance-Driven Life.

[\[00:28:22\]](#transcript-00-28-22-334) It's a book that takes you back to what Christ actually said from the cross, it is finished, and shows you how to stop living like there's still work for you to do.

[\[00:28:32\]](#transcript-00-28-32-335) You can download the whole book free at Theocast.org.

[\[00:28:36\]](#transcript-00-28-36-336) Christ really is enough.

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-337) And in him, so are you.

[\[00:28:41\]](#transcript-00-28-41-338) Yeah, it takes something like the Sabbath.

[\[00:28:43\]](#transcript-00-28-43-339) I mean, everyone is so addicted to their devices today, and it's possible to never stop working, especially people in ministry.

[\[00:28:49\]](#transcript-00-28-49-340) This applies to just as much as anyone.

[\[00:28:52\]](#transcript-00-28-52-341) And so you have books that are written.

[\[00:28:54\]](#transcript-00-28-54-342) There's a number of books that are written about sort of like, you know, more faithful rhythms of life and more restful rhythms of life that sort of have a strong understanding of like a digital Sabbath.

[\[00:29:08\]](#transcript-00-29-08-343) And I can sell you for certain, like, it's a good idea.

[\[00:29:11\]](#transcript-00-29-11-344) These are like, you know, these are, you know, we are not enslaved to Silicon Valley, and we're not enslaved to our paycheck.

[\[00:29:21\]](#transcript-00-29-21-345) Like, that's what it means to be.

[\[00:29:23\]](#transcript-00-29-23-346) Who like

[\[00:29:25\]](#transcript-00-29-25-347) We don't want to be.

[\[00:29:26\]](#transcript-00-29-26-348) Who cares about the Sabbath?

[\[00:29:28\]](#transcript-00-29-28-349) Those are good things.

[\[00:29:29\]](#transcript-00-29-29-350) And everyone feels the intense wrongness of this never stopping, ever-accelerating demand that we live under and on the treadmill of contemporary life.

[\[00:29:40\]](#transcript-00-29-40-351) But that doesn't mean what my sense is, the way that people are programmed as sinners is we hear this command.

[\[00:29:48\]](#transcript-00-29-48-352) It's like, well, now I have, if I can just master my Sabbath practices, then I will feel better, and then I will be closer to God.

[\[00:29:58\]](#transcript-00-29-58-353) And if then, what's not only me, I've got to get everyone else in my community to do it.

[\[00:30:03\]](#transcript-00-30-03-354) And then it becomes who's keeping the Sabbath the best and who's keeping it the longest?

[\[00:30:07\]](#transcript-00-30-07-355) And then it becomes this.

[\[00:30:08\]](#transcript-00-30-08-356) We all of a sudden become really scrupulous and pressurized about the way that we're keeping the Sabbath, such that, again, was the Sabbath made for man or man for the Sabbath.

[\[00:30:18\]](#transcript-00-30-18-357) And then you, the very thing that the law was brought into produce, or Which it said, what we believe it promises, which is sort of like peace, it creates the opposite.

[\[00:30:33\]](#transcript-00-30-33-358) But what it does, but what it's effectually doing is it's showing us how ineffective we are, how much we can't do this on our own, how much we need a Savior, how much we need the Holy Spirit, and

[\[00:30:45\]](#transcript-00-30-45-359) how much any kind of

[\[00:30:48\]](#transcript-00-30-48-360) if-then

[\[00:30:50\]](#transcript-00-30-50-361) scheme becomes a scheme of human control.

[\[00:30:53\]](#transcript-00-30-53-362) Like, what that's why we say witchcraft.

[\[00:30:55\]](#transcript-00-30-55-363) What is witchcraft?

[\[00:30:56\]](#transcript-00-30-56-364) Witchcraft is casting spells to have control and mastery over the natural world and other people.

[\[00:31:02\]](#transcript-00-31-02-365) That's what witchcraft is.

[\[00:31:03\]](#transcript-00-31-03-366) And that's how we use the law.

[\[00:31:05\]](#transcript-00-31-05-367) We think it's a tool for control of ourselves and other people in our spiritual sort of well-being.

[\[00:31:13\]](#transcript-00-31-13-368) And the gospel is not that.

[\[00:31:16\]](#transcript-00-31-16-369) The gospel says that God has control and he's given it up for your sake, to redeem you, to adopt you as sons and daughters, to breathe new life, to raise the dead.

[\[00:31:28\]](#transcript-00-31-28-370) And it's a promise that God will do for you what you cannot do for yourself, which ultimately is like eternal life, salvation, deliverance from death, the devil, and sin.

[\[00:31:40\]](#transcript-00-31-40-371) So I just trying to say how much I

[\[00:31:45\]](#transcript-00-31-45-372) sympathize with people's desire for the law to do to help us.

[\[00:31:53\]](#transcript-00-31-53-373) But again, you're right, it's not faith in the law.

[\[00:31:57\]](#transcript-00-31-57-374) That's a ministry of death.

[\[00:31:58\]](#transcript-00-31-58-375) I mean, that's what Paul talks about: it's a ministry of death.

[\[00:32:01\]](#transcript-00-32-01-376) If you have faith in the law, no one fulfills it, you don't either, and you're going to be driven to hiding, splitting, despair, and uh, basically uh, apostasy.

[\[00:32:13\]](#transcript-00-32-13-377) I don't see any other.

[\[00:32:15\]](#transcript-00-32-15-378) Because when I hear people talk about former Christians, you know, ex-evangelicals or whatever, they describe to me, they don't even describe to me a problem they had with the church.

[\[00:32:28\]](#transcript-00-32-28-379) Sometimes it's the church.

[\[00:32:29\]](#transcript-00-32-29-380) It's almost always they describe some problem they had with the law.

[\[00:32:35\]](#transcript-00-32-35-381) That's what they don't say, oh, God's promises were just too amazing and one way and all enveloping.

[\[00:32:43\]](#transcript-00-32-43-382) Like it's always they they describe some sort of situation where all they got from the church was the law.

[\[00:32:50\]](#transcript-00-32-50-383) And they thought that that's so, by rejecting the law, they thought that they're rejecting Christianity.

[\[00:32:56\]](#transcript-00-32-56-384) When, in fact, there's more going on on a Sunday in a good church, I think, than simply a reiteration of the law at full volume.

[\[00:33:05\]](#transcript-00-33-05-385) It's also the proclamation of the gospel in light of the law.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-386) So the law is important.

[\[00:33:10\]](#transcript-00-33-10-387) The law does not cease to be true, but the law drives us to our knees.

[\[00:33:15\]](#transcript-00-33-15-388) And I think that's the distinction.

[\[00:33:19\]](#transcript-00-33-19-389) That this is why we wrote this book.

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-390) And I hope it comes through in ways that are not, don't sound like a new law.

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-391) Just get this distinction, you know, because that's what we can do, that's another way to law the gospel.

[\[00:33:33\]](#transcript-00-33-33-392) We can say, Would you get it?

[\[00:33:35\]](#transcript-00-33-35-393) How much do you get it?

[\[00:33:36\]](#transcript-00-33-36-394) How much understand grace?

[\[00:33:37\]](#transcript-00-33-37-395) Like, how dare you believe in the law?

[\[00:33:39\]](#transcript-00-33-39-396) It's Yeah, it's that I was told, you know, early on in our ministry with Lockingbird, I'm sure I know you've gotten this with Theocast, but you sort of like, oh, you guys are those gospel Nazis, you know, like,

[\[00:33:51\]](#transcript-00-33-51-397) or grace Nazis.

[\[00:33:53\]](#transcript-00-33-53-398) And like, what that means is, like, we were, what we were, we were wielding the gospel as the law.

[\[00:33:59\]](#transcript-00-33-59-399) It was, and it was, I don't know if we totally are able to do that given the content of the gospel, but we sure as heck try.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-400) You know, yeah, it is.

[\[00:34:10\]](#transcript-00-34-10-401) there is an attitude, and I am definitely guilty of it: of like, you know, how dare you not understand this?

[\[00:34:17\]](#transcript-00-34-17-402) And that's, and that's part of discipleship and caring.

[\[00:34:20\]](#transcript-00-34-20-403) And I think the ironic thing about

[\[00:34:24\]](#transcript-00-34-24-404) the Bible is that you don't need the law, sorry, you don't need anybody to read the law and obey it as far as like it's written there, and here's the regulations, and then go ahead and try and attempt

[\[00:34:38\]](#transcript-00-34-38-405) it.

[\[00:34:38\]](#transcript-00-34-38-406) I love how Paul says faith comes through hearing and hearing through the word of Christ, and that even our involvement into our salvation is outside of ourselves.

[\[00:34:48\]](#transcript-00-34-48-407) Like, it's we're always just receiving it, right?

[\[00:34:51\]](#transcript-00-34-51-408) It's like consider how to build one another up.

[\[00:34:53\]](#transcript-00-34-53-409) Like we need each other, even so our faith isn't object outside of ourselves.

[\[00:34:57\]](#transcript-00-34-57-410) And then he puts us into a community that requires us to need them to what speak, it says, consider how to like sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, praying for one another, building one another up.

[\[00:35:08\]](#transcript-00-35-08-411) There's a constant objectivity to our faith that is outside of ourselves, and that's at the heart of the gospel.

[\[00:35:13\]](#transcript-00-35-13-412) Everything related to the gospel has nothing to do with you, like from beginning to end, other than you are the benefactor of it.

[\[00:35:21\]](#transcript-00-35-21-413) That's it.

[\[00:35:22\]](#transcript-00-35-22-414) Right.

[\[00:35:23\]](#transcript-00-35-23-415) If you think about it, because we always are like, are you obeying the gospel?

[\[00:35:27\]](#transcript-00-35-27-416) Well, to obey the gospel is to believe it's true.

[\[00:35:30\]](#transcript-00-35-30-417) Like, that's to believe it.

[\[00:35:31\]](#transcript-00-35-31-418) Like, that's to obey the gospel.

[\[00:35:33\]](#transcript-00-35-33-419) That's what Paul means is to believe it.

[\[00:35:35\]](#transcript-00-35-35-420) And if you believe it, Paul's like, oh, by the way, that's a gift from Jesus.

[\[00:35:38\]](#transcript-00-35-38-421) Do you believe the gospel?

[\[00:35:39\]](#transcript-00-35-39-422) That's a gift from Jesus.

[\[00:35:42\]](#transcript-00-35-42-423) Yeah.

[\[00:35:42\]](#transcript-00-35-42-424) It's not some sort of a marker that I believe it more than you do.

[\[00:35:45\]](#transcript-00-35-45-425) Exactly.

[\[00:35:46\]](#transcript-00-35-46-426) No, anyone believing it at all is a work of the Holy Spirit.

[\[00:35:50\]](#transcript-00-35-50-427) It's a gift.

[\[00:35:51\]](#transcript-00-35-51-428) And that's a law, right?

[\[00:35:53\]](#transcript-00-35-53-429) How much faith do you have?

[\[00:35:54\]](#transcript-00-35-54-430) That's a law.

[\[00:35:56\]](#transcript-00-35-56-431) Exactly.

[\[00:35:57\]](#transcript-00-35-57-432) How much faith do you have?

[\[00:35:58\]](#transcript-00-35-58-433) I mean, forgiveness, love, these wonderful things that I hold so dear, which I believe are often fruits of the gospel, but proclaim just you know, just forgive everyone who's ever hurt you.

[\[00:36:12\]](#transcript-00-36-12-434) Like, that's the law.

[\[00:36:13\]](#transcript-00-36-13-435) Just love, you've got to love me.

[\[00:36:15\]](#transcript-00-36-15-436) You know, that is the law.

[\[00:36:17\]](#transcript-00-36-17-437) It's true.

[\[00:36:18\]](#transcript-00-36-18-438) A world would be a more forgiving world would be a wonderful place to live.

[\[00:36:22\]](#transcript-00-36-22-439) We do not live in a world that has, that is too forgiving or too loving.

[\[00:36:27\]](#transcript-00-36-27-440) But to yell at someone, I mean, it's height of the law.

[\[00:36:30\]](#transcript-00-36-30-441) When Jesus says, what?

[\[00:36:31\]](#transcript-00-36-31-442) How do you summarize the law?

[\[00:36:32\]](#transcript-00-36-32-443) Well, it's like love God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

[\[00:36:36\]](#transcript-00-36-36-444) Love is the law.

[\[00:36:38\]](#transcript-00-36-38-445) Belovedness, the fact that you are loved in the midst of your failure to be loving, failure to be forgiven.

[\[00:36:46\]](#transcript-00-36-46-446) That's the gospel.

[\[00:36:47\]](#transcript-00-36-47-447) That's right.

[\[00:36:47\]](#transcript-00-36-47-448) And you just, we all know the difference, you know, we feel spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, you can sense the difference between when someone gives you a because, therefore, because Christ has died and risen again, therefore you have peace with

[\[00:37:06\]](#transcript-00-37-06-449) God and eternal life that is different in how it's heard than if you believe this with everything you got, then your life will go well.

[\[00:37:19\]](#transcript-00-37-19-450) And by the way, you also get to go to heaven.

[\[00:37:21\]](#transcript-00-37-21-451) Like that is the law, the because, therefore, is the gospel, and it's not actually an arcane or academic distinction we're making here, it has everything to do with the life of everyday believers.

[\[00:37:35\]](#transcript-00-37-35-452) Um, I mean, I think I really believe that the same message that saves is the one that sanctifies because

[\[00:37:41\]](#transcript-00-37-41-453) it's all Christ-centered.

[\[00:37:44\]](#transcript-00-37-44-454) And the second I wedge my own agency into there, something I can do, even if it's something like good, like belief or forgiveness, or then all of a sudden I've got right back on some sort of a ladder,

[\[00:37:57\]](#transcript-00-37-57-455) and uh, that's what's hidden oftentimes in virtue language and in a capacation language.

[\[00:38:04\]](#transcript-00-38-04-456) And that's the reason to resist it.

[\[00:38:06\]](#transcript-00-38-06-457) Not because we want to be a different type of police.

[\[00:38:10\]](#transcript-00-38-10-458) That's right.

[\[00:38:10\]](#transcript-00-38-10-459) No, if anything, we're just like the hope that I see people have is belovedness, is that they are forgiven, not that they can forgive, but that they are forgiven.

[\[00:38:21\]](#transcript-00-38-21-460) And I want to see that increase.

[\[00:38:23\]](#transcript-00-38-23-461) I see faith being born like crazy when those things happen.

[\[00:38:27\]](#transcript-00-38-27-462) And I see the Holy Spirit running rampant in the lives of forgiven sinners in a way that fearful, cowering, strivers on spiritual treadmills.

[\[00:38:39\]](#transcript-00-38-39-463) They just don't exude the sort of freedom that I read about in scripture that I'm so attracted to.

[\[00:38:45\]](#transcript-00-38-45-464) So that's, yeah.

[\[00:38:47\]](#transcript-00-38-47-465) I love that, David, because

[\[00:38:50\]](#transcript-00-38-50-466) when you think about the gospel, like just this came to mind while you were talking, like the, the law is like, here's the law, gospel distinction: the law is what you give, and the gospel is what you get,

[\[00:39:01\]](#transcript-00-39-01-467) what you have been given without obligation.

[\[00:39:04\]](#transcript-00-39-04-468) Like, it's the law is like, here's what you must give.

[\[00:39:06\]](#transcript-00-39-06-469) And then when you think about it, the second way, and this has been, I don't know who we stole this from, somebody years ago, but the law is what is to be done.

[\[00:39:14\]](#transcript-00-39-14-470) Like, this is what you must do.

[\[00:39:15\]](#transcript-00-39-15-471) You have to do these things.

[\[00:39:17\]](#transcript-00-39-17-472) And the gospel is what has been done for you.

[\[00:39:19\]](#transcript-00-39-19-473) This has been done and given to you.

[\[00:39:21\]](#transcript-00-39-21-474) This is what you must do and give.

[\[00:39:23\]](#transcript-00-39-23-475) And you'll notice the direction of it.

[\[00:39:25\]](#transcript-00-39-25-476) It's like the gospel is always what's coming towards you in Christ because of Christ.

[\[00:39:30\]](#transcript-00-39-30-477) And the law is always what must come from you.

[\[00:39:32\]](#transcript-00-39-32-478) And so, if the moment you hear someone say, This is the gospel, and they're trying to pull something from you, that you know there's a concern there.

[\[00:39:40\]](#transcript-00-39-40-479) If the poll is not trust Christ's sufficiency, but even if they say, This is what trusting looks like, then now they're putting law on you again, right?

[\[00:39:49\]](#transcript-00-39-49-480) It's simply to believe.

[\[00:39:51\]](#transcript-00-39-51-481) I mean, people want more than that, but it really is.

[\[00:39:53\]](#transcript-00-39-53-482) I believe that Christ is who He says He is, and He is sufficient for me.

[\[00:39:57\]](#transcript-00-39-57-483) And creating those, that's just why I love the title of the book.

[\[00:39:59\]](#transcript-00-39-59-484) Is it like we have to define those terms?

[\[00:40:02\]](#transcript-00-40-02-485) And if you want a book that's going to do that, and it's been doing it for 10 years, I would encourage you to do that.

[\[00:40:08\]](#transcript-00-40-08-486) Deb, but I have one last thing I want to throw at it.

[\[00:40:10\]](#transcript-00-40-10-487) We've got like a couple seconds here.

[\[00:40:13\]](#transcript-00-40-13-488) I think sometimes when people hear this, they hear sit back and do nothing.

[\[00:40:17\]](#transcript-00-40-17-489) Like, that's the Christian life.

[\[00:40:19\]](#transcript-00-40-19-490) And it's like, no, no, no.

[\[00:40:20\]](#transcript-00-40-20-491) There's a place for the gospel.

[\[00:40:22\]](#transcript-00-40-22-492) And then there's a place on how the gospel becomes the way it is, and you said this.

[\[00:40:27\]](#transcript-00-40-27-493) I think the gospel transforms us, it's a sanctifying effect.

[\[00:40:31\]](#transcript-00-40-31-494) So, what you're not saying is, oh, just believe the gospel and ignore the law.

[\[00:40:36\]](#transcript-00-40-36-495) That's not what you're saying.

[\[00:40:39\]](#transcript-00-40-39-496) No, I mean, I just don't think that that's A.

[\[00:40:43\]](#transcript-00-40-43-497) I don't think that's the problem, by the way, in contemporary American Christianity that people are doing too little, like I, and believing the gospel too much.

[\[00:40:52\]](#transcript-00-40-52-498) Like, I don't think that's the danger we're falling into.

[\[00:40:55\]](#transcript-00-40-55-499) So, when people ask me this question, I was like, just point to me to these people that are just sitting on the couch after hearing the gospel.

[\[00:41:01\]](#transcript-00-41-01-500) I mean, most of the people I know, when they get a hold of the law gospel distinction, they get so excited, they can't get enough.

[\[00:41:08\]](#transcript-00-41-08-501) I mean, in fact, if anything, they become really irritating about it.

[\[00:41:10\]](#transcript-00-41-10-502) And like they need to be more, you know, they need to sort of burn brightly for a little while so that they can then be of use again to folks.

[\[00:41:19\]](#transcript-00-41-19-503) No, I mean, I believe that this is married to a robust view of the Holy Spirit as the actor and the sort of energizer in life, and that a person is who is who is who believes that they're

[\[00:41:32\]](#transcript-00-41-32-504) free from the condemnation of the law and the measuring and the accusing of the law is all of a sudden gets to ask that fear, that incredible question, but it is also a frightening question.

[\[00:41:43\]](#transcript-00-41-43-505) But it's like, now that I don't have to do anything, what do I want to do?

[\[00:41:47\]](#transcript-00-41-47-506) And you know, usually that is not some sort of deadening your senses with sex, drugs, and rock and rolls, because that's a response to the law almost always.

[\[00:42:00\]](#transcript-00-42-00-507) I, it, a, The person who is forgiven, who is loved, who is assured of their righteousness and their salvation, come what may, all of a sudden starts to no longer look at themselves at all.

[\[00:42:14\]](#transcript-00-42-14-508) They're not as interested in, you know, my question's been answered.

[\[00:42:18\]](#transcript-00-42-18-509) How can I be of use to my neighbors?

[\[00:42:20\]](#transcript-00-42-20-510) What can I do?

[\[00:42:21\]](#transcript-00-42-21-511) I mean, there's all sorts, and then you're, if you're, especially a person who goes to church, guess what?

[\[00:42:25\]](#transcript-00-42-25-512) The church is a venue for all sorts of amazing stuff that a person can get involved with according to the gifts that you've been given, but it's almost always going to be also in accordance with the gifts you've

[\[00:42:34\]](#transcript-00-42-34-513) been given, you know.

[\[00:42:36\]](#transcript-00-42-36-514) So, I think that there's creativity, spontaneity, uh, from the heart, you know, people starting to do things from the heart, trusting that the work of sanctification is of the Spirit, it is God who works out these things within you.

[\[00:42:51\]](#transcript-00-42-51-515) And to the extent that you're aware of it, you'll probably only, it's the pattern of sort of the Christians I know of is that you just kind of become more aware of your dependence upon God and your need

[\[00:43:00\]](#transcript-00-43-00-516) for God and your inability to do these things apart from God.

[\[00:43:04\]](#transcript-00-43-04-517) And yet there's a joy and a lack of self-consciousness and a kind of outward-centeredness that this doesn't have to be commanded.

[\[00:43:12\]](#transcript-00-43-12-518) It just happens.

[\[00:43:13\]](#transcript-00-43-13-519) And if at this point, you know, we wrote this book, and I was, you know, 12 years younger than I am now.

[\[00:43:20\]](#transcript-00-43-20-520) And let me just say, I've got 12 years of experience in work in a local congregation where I see that to be true.

[\[00:43:27\]](#transcript-00-43-27-521) I see ministries, you know, sprout up and people joyfully taking part in them, not because they feel they have to, but because they want to, yes, and that they feel like they've been given this enormous opportunity and the

[\[00:43:41\]](#transcript-00-43-41-522) freedom to give to sort of give back in some kind of way that doesn't feel coerced or leveraged.

[\[00:43:48\]](#transcript-00-43-48-523) So, when you feel the love of Christ the way that Christ loves you, to love someone else doesn't feel like foreign.

[\[00:43:57\]](#transcript-00-43-57-524) The last illustration I'll use here: my dad was my hero.

[\[00:44:00\]](#transcript-00-44-00-525) I loved my father, and I was, I think, 17 the first time I was asked to preach into my dad's congregation.

[\[00:44:08\]](#transcript-00-44-08-526) And all these people are like, You sound just like your dad.

[\[00:44:11\]](#transcript-00-44-11-527) Well, which is a total compliment to me because I loved him and I loved the way that he preached.

[\[00:44:16\]](#transcript-00-44-16-528) And my dad never came to me and was like, You're going to sound like me and you're going to look like me.

[\[00:44:19\]](#transcript-00-44-19-529) Like, I just loved him.

[\[00:44:20\]](#transcript-00-44-20-530) Like, he was my best friend.

[\[00:44:23\]](#transcript-00-44-23-531) And so, this is what we're trying to get at: when you fall in love with your God and king, who is so kind to you and gracious to you.

[\[00:44:30\]](#transcript-00-44-30-532) And you're, you keep looking at him and you keep being floored by who he is, you're going to start wanting to act like him and look like him and be like him.

[\[00:44:39\]](#transcript-00-44-39-533) This is totally first John, right?

[\[00:44:41\]](#transcript-00-44-41-534) This is looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

[\[00:44:44\]](#transcript-00-44-44-535) That's not a law, that's a drawing of the heart.

[\[00:44:46\]](#transcript-00-44-46-536) And so, if someone's like, Man, I'm really struggling to obey.

[\[00:44:49\]](#transcript-00-44-49-537) Well, you need more of the gospel, like you really do, because it will tune your heart and change your heart, and you'll see the wonder and the glory of who Jesus Christ is.

[\[00:44:58\]](#transcript-00-44-58-538) And so you'll find yourself when you fail to be like him, you're like, wow, that's nothing like Christ.

[\[00:45:03\]](#transcript-00-45-03-539) Would you forgive me for not doing that?

[\[00:45:05\]](#transcript-00-45-05-540) And it's hard for people to believe this, but David, you and I are convinced, first of all, because it's in scripture.

[\[00:45:10\]](#transcript-00-45-10-541) We never want to be convinced because of our experience.

[\[00:45:12\]](#transcript-00-45-12-542) But this is truly how I've experienced Jesus: the more of his love I see, the more like him I want to be, yeah, and the less I'm interested in measuring it, too.

[\[00:45:23\]](#transcript-00-45-23-543) Exactly.

[\[00:45:26\]](#transcript-00-45-26-544) I'm focused on Christ, I'm focused on others, and it's not a uh it's not a self-conscious thing where I'm trying to score points, so which is the which is the law.

[\[00:45:37\]](#transcript-00-45-37-545) I mean, it's never a one-time thing.

[\[00:45:38\]](#transcript-00-45-38-546) This is why we preach law and gospel is every is an every week type of thing, and we need to sort of write books and refresh them every few years so that

[\[00:45:48\]](#transcript-00-45-48-547) the world, you know, I'm speaking to myself just as much because I live in a world that all week long is telling me to be more, do more, try harder, you know, climb faster, and to

[\[00:46:04\]](#transcript-00-46-04-548) To import that into the church, usually under the form of the law, is such a dangerous thing, but such a natural reflexive thing that I need every seven days, I need every day, I need every hour to be

[\[00:46:18\]](#transcript-00-46-18-549) reminded of the distinction.

[\[00:46:21\]](#transcript-00-46-21-550) But not just what's the distinction, but what the gospel is, which is there's

[\[00:46:29\]](#transcript-00-46-29-551) Christ is the author and finisher of your faith, like that, that He is He is the one perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world, which applies not just to the sins of the world, but to you in

[\[00:46:41\]](#transcript-00-46-41-552) your ongoing disastrousness as a human.

[\[00:46:46\]](#transcript-00-46-46-553) Anyway, I don't want to start preaching to let's go.

[\[00:46:50\]](#transcript-00-46-50-554) Glad you let me talk about this because I think it hasn't diminished in the last 10 years, and I doubt it will as

[\[00:46:58\]](#transcript-00-46-58-555) life continues to become more pressurized.

[\[00:47:01\]](#transcript-00-47-01-556) I mean, Satan has been misquoting the law from Genesis 2.

[\[00:47:08\]](#transcript-00-47-08-557) From Genesis 3, technically.

[\[00:47:09\]](#transcript-00-47-09-558) You heard it said, but I say.

[\[00:47:11\]](#transcript-00-47-11-559) That's right.

[\[00:47:13\]](#transcript-00-47-13-560) Did he really say that yep.

[\[00:47:15\]](#transcript-00-47-15-561) Last thing I was watching.

[\[00:47:17\]](#transcript-00-47-17-562) You ever watch those videos where someone gets pulled over and they start like debating the law with the officer, like what the law really is?

[\[00:47:24\]](#transcript-00-47-24-563) And I think if you don't want to be fooled by Satan and the law, then clean up your understanding of the gospel and it will set you free.

[\[00:47:31\]](#transcript-00-47-31-564) Because this is what Jesus says: I'm the one who sets you free.

[\[00:47:34\]](#transcript-00-47-34-565) So that's where I would point you.

[\[00:47:37\]](#transcript-00-47-37-566) Get good books like this that give you a good view of what the biblical view of the gospel is, a biblical view of the law, and then Satan can't come and trip you up.

[\[00:47:46\]](#transcript-00-47-46-567) You know, this is so healthy.

[\[00:47:48\]](#transcript-00-47-48-568) And then find a church that will give you the gospel week in and week out, that will confront you with the law so you can repent of your sins, and then confront you with the gospel in word and

[\[00:47:58\]](#transcript-00-47-58-569) sacrament so that you can be renewed in comfort once again.

[\[00:48:02\]](#transcript-00-48-02-570) Because we walk by faith, not obedience.

[\[00:48:06\]](#transcript-00-48-06-571) And it's a good thing to remember.

[\[00:48:08\]](#transcript-00-48-08-572) Man, David, thank you for coming.

[\[00:48:10\]](#transcript-00-48-10-573) Yeah, go ahead.

[\[00:48:12\]](#transcript-00-48-12-574) No, thanks for being a source of that in my own life, John.

[\[00:48:16\]](#transcript-00-48-16-575) Thank you to Theophana.

[\[00:48:17\]](#transcript-00-48-17-576) All the folks behind it because you guys are, for those of us who, you know, some times we can't get to church, it's nice at least to have some digital backstops like this.

[\[00:48:28\]](#transcript-00-48-28-577) I appreciate that.

[\[00:48:29\]](#transcript-00-48-29-578) That's what my mom says to me all the time.

[\[00:48:31\]](#transcript-00-48-31-579) So, you and my mom, you guys are so kind to me.

[\[00:48:36\]](#transcript-00-48-36-580) Mockingbird, I always get this wrong.

[\[00:48:38\]](#transcript-00-48-38-581) It's mbird, mbird.org, mbird.com.

[\[00:48:43\]](#transcript-00-48-43-582) But I think mockingbird.org will get you there too.

[\[00:48:47\]](#transcript-00-48-47-583) I'm on social, We're on the social medias.

[\[00:48:49\]](#transcript-00-48-49-584) I'm on Substack under my own name, under my own name.

[\[00:48:53\]](#transcript-00-48-53-585) And but yeah, the mocking cast, the mocking cast.

[\[00:48:57\]](#transcript-00-48-57-586) We talk about this stuff all the time.

[\[00:48:58\]](#transcript-00-48-58-587) Oh, you have a conference that you guys do a couple?

[\[00:49:01\]](#transcript-00-49-01-588) Is it twice a year or once a year?

[\[00:49:03\]](#transcript-00-49-03-589) Twice a year.

[\[00:49:04\]](#transcript-00-49-04-590) We've got a conference coming up in October in Minneapolis.

[\[00:49:07\]](#transcript-00-49-07-591) We usually have a spring one.

[\[00:49:08\]](#transcript-00-49-08-592) We have a spring one in New York in April 2027, I think the 15th through the 17th.

[\[00:49:16\]](#transcript-00-49-16-593) My other recent book is called The Big Relief.

[\[00:49:18\]](#transcript-00-49-18-594) Yes.

[\[00:49:18\]](#transcript-00-49-18-595) You guys, you've let me talk about it.

[\[00:49:20\]](#transcript-00-49-20-596) Go back and listen to that episode.

[\[00:49:21\]](#transcript-00-49-21-597) It's great.

[\[00:49:24\]](#transcript-00-49-24-598) But yeah, thank you for having me on, John.

[\[00:49:26\]](#transcript-00-49-26-599) It's yeah, it's an honor.

[\[00:49:28\]](#transcript-00-49-28-600) Absolutely.

[\[00:49:28\]](#transcript-00-49-28-601) Seriously, if you're a gift, that's the right gift.

[\[00:49:32\]](#transcript-00-49-32-602) It's a gift.

[\[00:49:33\]](#transcript-00-49-33-603) There you go.

[\[00:49:34\]](#transcript-00-49-34-604) If you're an Amazon Nazi, you can definitely get the book there.

[\[00:49:36\]](#transcript-00-49-36-605) There are people who only buy stuff from Amazon, so you can go there.

[\[00:49:40\]](#transcript-00-49-40-606) Or if you'd like to support Mockingbird, it's always best to go to the actual website.

[\[00:49:44\]](#transcript-00-49-44-607) It just helps them out more.

[\[00:49:46\]](#transcript-00-49-46-608) So go to mbird.com and buy your book there.

[\[00:49:49\]](#transcript-00-49-49-609) And my rule of thumb is: if you can afford it, by God's mercy and grace, buy two, so you can give one away and encourage someone else.

[\[00:49:55\]](#transcript-00-49-55-610) So, thanks for listening.

[\[00:49:57\]](#transcript-00-49-57-611) And hey, brother, may God encourage you and bless you and keep you safe.

[\[00:50:02\]](#transcript-00-50-02-612) And we love you.

[\[00:50:04\]](#transcript-00-50-04-613) And we'll see you for those who are listening.

[\[00:50:05\]](#transcript-00-50-05-614) We'll see you soon.

[\[00:50:06\]](#transcript-00-50-06-615) Hey, guys, real quick.

[\[00:50:08\]](#transcript-00-50-08-616) Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:50:12\]](#transcript-00-50-12-617) So, where do you go?

[\[00:50:13\]](#transcript-00-50-13-618) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:50:17\]](#transcript-00-50-17-619) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources there: past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there,

[\[00:50:29\]](#transcript-00-50-29-620) and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:50:31\]](#transcript-00-50-31-621) You can go check it out.

[\[00:50:32\]](#transcript-00-50-32-622) The link is in the description below.

---

### Drunk Noah and the Gospel? (Genesis 9:20-27)

*Published: June 10, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/drunk-noah-and-the-gospel-genesis-9-20-27*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/law9GhtDnGg)

It's the strangest scene in Noah's story: the man who saved humanity, passed out drunk and exposed in his tent, and a curse that echoes for a thousand years. What did Ham actually do? Why did the curse fall on Canaan instead? And how does the Bible's most uncomfortable story run all the way to the cross? We walk the three views, follow the Leviticus trail, and trace the line from a shamed father to the Son who refused to grasp. From cursed to cured, this is the gospel hiding in Noah's tent.

* Noah’s shameful scene and the curse that echoes for a thousand years
* What Ham did, and why the curse fell on Canaan
* Three views, the Leviticus trail, and the line to the cross
* From cursed to cured: the gospel hiding in Noah’s tent

* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Stand Firm? I'm Barely Hanging On

*Published: June 3, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/stand-firm-im-barely-hanging-on*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/xzZER6fGT6w)

What do you do when you cannot even get out of bed, let alone “stand firm” in your faith? Jon Moffitt explores what Scripture really means when Peter and Paul call believers to stand firm in seasons of suffering and despair. This conversation challenges the idea that faith is about trying harder or pulling yourself together. Instead, you will see how the gospel gives weary Christians something solid to stand on outside of themselves. If you feel crushed by fear, exhaustion, or hopelessness, this episode offers comfort rooted in Christ and His promises.

* What Peter and Paul mean by “stand firm” in suffering and despair
* Why faith is not about trying harder or pulling yourself together
* Gospel ground outside yourself for weary Christians
* Hope when fear, exhaustion, or hopelessness crush you

* [Enough in Christ](https://theocast.org/enough-in-christ) — free ebook
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:01\]](#transcript-00-00-01-1) Hopefully, you started to watch or listen to this because you find yourself in a really dark, deep moment of despair.

[\[00:00:08\]](#transcript-00-00-08-2) And you're thinking to yourself, How in the world am I going to get through this?

[\[00:00:13\]](#transcript-00-00-13-3) And someone comes and gives you a verse, and it says, Stand firm.

[\[00:00:17\]](#transcript-00-00-17-4) It's like, I stand.

[\[00:00:19\]](#transcript-00-00-19-5) I can't even roll over.

[\[00:00:20\]](#transcript-00-00-20-6) I'm so far on my back, face down, whatever you want to say.

[\[00:00:24\]](#transcript-00-00-24-7) I don't know what to do.

[\[00:00:26\]](#transcript-00-00-26-8) How am I going to do this?

[\[00:00:28\]](#transcript-00-00-28-9) Well, this episode is for you.

[\[00:00:30\]](#transcript-00-00-30-10) To stand firm in your faith is not a pull yourself up by your bootstrap moment.

[\[00:00:34\]](#transcript-00-00-34-11) It is definitely not for you to try harder.

[\[00:00:37\]](#transcript-00-00-37-12) And I can promise you, by the end of this episode, if you feel like you're on your last thread and your life's about to snap, this is for you.

[\[00:00:45\]](#transcript-00-00-45-13) Peter and Paul are talking to you because they want you to stand somewhere that has nothing to do with you.

[\[00:00:52\]](#transcript-00-00-52-14) You need to hear this.

[\[00:00:53\]](#transcript-00-00-53-15) So stay tuned.

[\[00:00:55\]](#transcript-00-00-55-16) Ever read the Bible and walk away feeling like you're failing?

[\[00:00:59\]](#transcript-00-00-59-17) No matter how hard you try, you're never measuring up.

[\[00:01:02\]](#transcript-00-01-02-18) That's not a motivation problem, that's a reading problem.

[\[00:01:05\]](#transcript-00-01-05-19) Most people have never been taught how to read the Bible the way Jesus taught it.

[\[00:01:09\]](#transcript-00-01-09-20) So when they hear things like, be perfect, deny yourself, take up your cross, they assume it's all about trying harder.

[\[00:01:16\]](#transcript-00-01-16-21) But what if that's not what Jesus was doing at all?

[\[00:01:19\]](#transcript-00-01-19-22) What if the law isn't meant to fix you, but to reveal your need for a savior?

[\[00:01:24\]](#transcript-00-01-24-23) And what if the gospel isn't advice, but an announcement of what Christ has already done for you?

[\[00:01:29\]](#transcript-00-01-29-24) That's the difference between law and gospel.

[\[00:01:32\]](#transcript-00-01-32-25) And once you see it, everything changes.

[\[00:01:34\]](#transcript-00-01-34-26) Clarity, rest, and confidence.

[\[00:01:37\]](#transcript-00-01-37-27) In the Bible, according to Jesus, I show you how to read scripture the way Jesus intended.

[\[00:01:42\]](#transcript-00-01-42-28) So you stop feeling crushed and confused, and start living with confidence and rest in Christ.

[\[00:01:48\]](#transcript-00-01-48-29) You can get your copy of the book at theocast.org.

[\[00:02:06\]](#transcript-00-02-06-30) I'm excited to be here for another episode of Theocast.

[\[00:02:09\]](#transcript-00-02-09-31) We're here to pull the clutter off the gospel today and help weary saints find rest in Christ so that they might find joy and happiness in the midst of a really broken world, and that's a supernatural gift.

[\[00:02:21\]](#transcript-00-02-21-32) You cannot find that in the flesh, and you can't find it in discipline or willpower.

[\[00:02:25\]](#transcript-00-02-25-33) You can only find it in Christ.

[\[00:02:27\]](#transcript-00-02-27-34) And that's what we're about to talk about today.

[\[00:02:30\]](#transcript-00-02-30-35) I'm the host, I'm Jon Moffitt, the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:02:34\]](#transcript-00-02-34-36) Many of you have been coming to visit us.

[\[00:02:36\]](#transcript-00-02-36-37) I'm so glad that you've been able to stop by and rest with the saints with us here in South Nashville.

[\[00:02:44\]](#transcript-00-02-44-38) And we hope to see many, many more of you in the future.

[\[00:02:48\]](#transcript-00-02-48-39) I'm going to jump into this today.

[\[00:02:50\]](#transcript-00-02-50-40) And before I do, I just, you're going to hear about it a little bit later, but we do have paperbacks now.

[\[00:02:55\]](#transcript-00-02-55-41) So if you want to get the paperback of enough in Christ, you can do so.

[\[00:02:59\]](#transcript-00-02-59-42) You can get it on our website, theocast.org, or for those of you that are

[\[00:03:05\]](#transcript-00-03-05-43) Amazon snobs, you can go to Amazon and get one there.

[\[00:03:08\]](#transcript-00-03-08-44) Not that you're snobs.

[\[00:03:09\]](#transcript-00-03-09-45) I shop there all the time, but you can get them there if you want a bulk discount.

[\[00:03:13\]](#transcript-00-03-13-46) Like, if you want to buy those in a bulk, then you're going to want to buy them from our website.

[\[00:03:18\]](#transcript-00-03-18-47) For all of our books, we give big discounts for bulk free shipping and percentages off, all that kind of stuff.

[\[00:03:24\]](#transcript-00-03-24-48) So, paperback of Enough in Christ is available as well as the Bible according to Jesus.

[\[00:03:32\]](#transcript-00-03-32-49) Let's go ahead and jump into this.

[\[00:03:33\]](#transcript-00-03-33-50) A couple of weeks ago, I did an episode on 1 John 2:4 about what the word when we talk about

[\[00:03:42\]](#transcript-00-03-42-51) When he says you want to know that you're a true Christian by those who keep his commandments.

[\[00:03:50\]](#transcript-00-03-50-52) And unfortunately, because of a revivalistic, pietistic way of understanding scripture, which I'm going to be doing an entire series on: the history of revivalism and its effect on the Christian mind.

[\[00:04:03\]](#transcript-00-04-03-53) We interpret that as performance-based to keep his commandments.

[\[00:04:07\]](#transcript-00-04-07-54) We think of that as a performance of obedience to the Ten Commandments.

[\[00:04:12\]](#transcript-00-04-12-55) That's how we can find our assurance.

[\[00:04:14\]](#transcript-00-04-14-56) There's another several passages in scripture, like nine or 10 of them, that often can have this tone as well.

[\[00:04:22\]](#transcript-00-04-22-57) And we reverse-engineer the initial design for them, and it ends up taking weary, beat-up, exhausted Christians and making things worse for them when the intention was to encourage and strengthen them.

[\[00:04:36\]](#transcript-00-04-36-58) So, as we have said in the intro, I want to pull the clutter off of this.

[\[00:04:40\]](#transcript-00-04-40-59) I want to have a conversation around what does it mean to stand firm?

[\[00:04:46\]](#transcript-00-04-46-60) To stand firm in your faith.

[\[00:04:48\]](#transcript-00-04-48-61) What does that mean?

[\[00:04:49\]](#transcript-00-04-49-62) What did Paul and Peter have in mind when they told the believers that they need to stand firm in their faith.

[\[00:04:58\]](#transcript-00-04-58-63) Now, this is mentioned at least 10 times, and it's in various different contexts.

[\[00:05:03\]](#transcript-00-05-03-64) But I definitely want to read some of them to us this morning, or this morning, or whenever you're listening to this podcast.

[\[00:05:10\]](#transcript-00-05-10-65) But there are several times, for instance, Ephesians 6:13.

[\[00:05:13\]](#transcript-00-05-13-66) Therefore, take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day.

[\[00:05:18\]](#transcript-00-05-18-67) And having done all, stand firm.

[\[00:05:21\]](#transcript-00-05-21-68) So he keeps using this: stand, therefore, having fastened the belt of truth.

[\[00:05:25\]](#transcript-00-05-25-69) So, over and over and over in 13 and 14, he uses that Philippians 1:27.

[\[00:05:29\]](#transcript-00-05-29-70) Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ.

[\[00:05:32\]](#transcript-00-05-32-71) We can talk about that whole verse by its own episode.

[\[00:05:36\]](#transcript-00-05-36-72) So, whether I come to see you or an absent, I may hear that you are standing firm in one spirit with one mind, striving side by side for what?

[\[00:05:48\]](#transcript-00-05-48-73) For faith in the gospel.

[\[00:05:51\]](#transcript-00-05-51-74) Stand firm in what?

[\[00:05:52\]](#transcript-00-05-52-75) Faith in the gospel.

[\[00:05:53\]](#transcript-00-05-53-76) Philippians 4:1.

[\[00:05:55\]](#transcript-00-05-55-77) Therefore, my brothers, whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm in what?

[\[00:06:03\]](#transcript-00-06-03-78) Thus, in the Lord, not in you, in the Lord.

[\[00:06:06\]](#transcript-00-06-06-79) Galatians 5:1.

[\[00:06:07\]](#transcript-00-06-07-80) For freedom Christ has set you free.

[\[00:06:09\]](#transcript-00-06-09-81) Stand therefore and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

[\[00:06:13\]](#transcript-00-06-13-82) now we're getting some clarity, he doesn't want us to go back standing in our own strength, standing in our own righteousness, standing in our own ways.

[\[00:06:22\]](#transcript-00-06-22-83) 1 Thessalonians 3:8.

[\[00:06:24\]](#transcript-00-06-24-84) For now we live, if you are standing fast in what?

[\[00:06:28\]](#transcript-00-06-28-85) How is it that you know that you were alive?

[\[00:06:31\]](#transcript-00-06-31-86) He says, if you're standing fast in the Lord, not in your obedience, not even in your faith, you're standing in what?

[\[00:06:39\]](#transcript-00-06-39-87) In the Lord.

[\[00:06:40\]](#transcript-00-06-40-88) 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

[\[00:06:42\]](#transcript-00-06-42-89) So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken or by our written words.

[\[00:06:50\]](#transcript-00-06-50-90) What traditions?

[\[00:06:51\]](#transcript-00-06-51-91) It's that which has been handed down to them about Christ, or one of my favorites, 1 Peter 5:9, resist him.

[\[00:06:58\]](#transcript-00-06-58-92) That is Satan.

[\[00:06:59\]](#transcript-00-06-59-93) Resist him.

[\[00:07:00\]](#transcript-00-07-00-94) He is trying to get you to go put your faith on sinking sand to get off the solid rock.

[\[00:07:07\]](#transcript-00-07-07-95) And Peter says, resist him firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by brotherhood throughout the world, meaning that there are many who wanted to abandon the faith, they wanted to move or

[\[00:07:20\]](#transcript-00-07-20-96) shift or put their confidence in something else other than Jesus Christ.

[\[00:07:24\]](#transcript-00-07-24-97) And Paul says the one who's doing that is Satan.

[\[00:07:27\]](#transcript-00-07-27-98) It's fascinating.

[\[00:07:28\]](#transcript-00-07-28-99) They were looking at their physical circumstances, and Peter says those physical problems are the results of Satan attempting to get you to trust in something worldly or fleshly other than Jesus Christ.

[\[00:07:42\]](#transcript-00-07-42-100) So, in all of these contexts, if you walk through, you'll notice that these warnings are coming when there's persecution or false teaching, internal division within the church, suffering, temptation, and spiritual warfare, if not a connection to all of

[\[00:07:59\]](#transcript-00-07-59-101) these.

[\[00:07:59\]](#transcript-00-07-59-102) You can find them here.

[\[00:08:02\]](#transcript-00-08-02-103) And so the writers of the New Testament are encouraging the church to not falter in their faith.

[\[00:08:10\]](#transcript-00-08-10-104) And they keep using this idea over and over and over again to stand firm.

[\[00:08:17\]](#transcript-00-08-17-105) Now, we in the American Western culture, we always want there to be a self-help/slash physical Physical discipline solution to our problems.

[\[00:08:29\]](#transcript-00-08-29-106) And on my social media feeds right now, it's like the military workout because I'm in, you know, I'm about to be 45 years old.

[\[00:08:35\]](#transcript-00-08-35-107) And so they're marketing to me.

[\[00:08:37\]](#transcript-00-08-37-108) It's the military workout.

[\[00:08:39\]](#transcript-00-08-39-109) And, you know, there's always this way, you know, within 30 days, there's a solution.

[\[00:08:45\]](#transcript-00-08-45-110) And what's so frustrating about the culture that we live in, is that we're constantly being bombarded with solutions.

[\[00:08:53\]](#transcript-00-08-53-111) If you eat this way, if you work this way, if you work out this way, if you think this way, if you buy this, you wear this, you do this, you know, life's going to be better.

[\[00:09:02\]](#transcript-00-09-02-112) And the algorithms are just pounding us.

[\[00:09:06\]](#transcript-00-09-06-113) And we try some of those things.

[\[00:09:08\]](#transcript-00-09-08-114) And yet, we could see some results, right?

[\[00:09:11\]](#transcript-00-09-11-115) You can see physical results, but that doesn't mean that the heart problem is being resolved.

[\[00:09:18\]](#transcript-00-09-18-116) And at the end of the day, what the writers of the New Testament, Peter and Paul, are dealing with is a heart issue.

[\[00:09:24\]](#transcript-00-09-24-117) Real joy and satisfaction in its ultimate sense of rest and protection is not found in this world.

[\[00:09:33\]](#transcript-00-09-33-118) It can't be found in this world.

[\[00:09:35\]](#transcript-00-09-35-119) This is why we suffer.

[\[00:09:38\]](#transcript-00-09-38-120) It's part of what I talked about a couple of weeks ago: this prosperity gospel light, where, you know, if you do the right things and say the right things and discipline yourself, then your life can be better.

[\[00:09:48\]](#transcript-00-09-48-121) And that's not the case.

[\[00:09:49\]](#transcript-00-09-49-122) And we're not going to make that mistake here.

[\[00:09:51\]](#transcript-00-09-51-123) There's no way.

[\[00:09:52\]](#transcript-00-09-52-124) Hear me out.

[\[00:09:53\]](#transcript-00-09-53-125) Before you move on from this episode, don't think that I'm leading you to your life will get better if you stand firm in your faith.

[\[00:10:02\]](#transcript-00-10-02-126) Like somehow you'll see improvement.

[\[00:10:05\]](#transcript-00-10-05-127) I know this sounds like a really dark episode, but I want you to hear me out in that this is not the solution to your problems where your problems will go away.

[\[00:10:17\]](#transcript-00-10-17-128) It's understanding the world that you live in, and then understanding that there's two ways of living it: in Christ, where He is enough, or outside of Christ, where you'll never ever find a sense of rest and joy and

[\[00:10:35\]](#transcript-00-10-35-129) peace.

[\[00:10:35\]](#transcript-00-10-35-130) It's just never going to happen because it can't happen.

[\[00:10:38\]](#transcript-00-10-38-131) And that's the deception.

[\[00:10:40\]](#transcript-00-10-40-132) I feel it every day.

[\[00:10:41\]](#transcript-00-10-41-133) You feel it every day.

[\[00:10:42\]](#transcript-00-10-42-134) We feel that deception that if we had more money, if we had less weight, if we had more hair, we had whatever, whatever it is that you want to tell yourself that you need, then you'd be satisfied.

[\[00:10:50\]](#transcript-00-10-50-135) And this is not the case.

[\[00:10:52\]](#transcript-00-10-52-136) Let's go back to our passage here.

[\[00:10:54\]](#transcript-00-10-54-137) Before I do, I want to tell you who it is that I'm talking to.

[\[00:10:58\]](#transcript-00-10-58-138) I'm talking

[\[00:11:00\]](#transcript-00-11-00-139) to people who literally feel they're on their last thread.

[\[00:11:06\]](#transcript-00-11-06-140) Like the rope is about to snap, and you have no energy, you're exhausted.

[\[00:11:13\]](#transcript-00-11-13-141) Quitting is real for you.

[\[00:11:18\]](#transcript-00-11-18-142) You don't know where to do next.

[\[00:11:20\]](#transcript-00-11-20-143) You don't know where to go next.

[\[00:11:21\]](#transcript-00-11-21-144) It feels like every moment of every day is an uphill climb.

[\[00:11:26\]](#transcript-00-11-26-145) And you're just, you're wanting that moment of relief.

[\[00:11:31\]](#transcript-00-11-31-146) You're wanting that moment where you can just take a deep sigh of breath and think to yourself, everything's going to be fine.

[\[00:11:38\]](#transcript-00-11-38-147) Like, it's all going to work out, it'll be fine if this, this, and this goes, but you're not, it doesn't come.

[\[00:11:45\]](#transcript-00-11-45-148) And the waves of more discouragement and more bad news just keeps coming your way, and you look around as you know, like it does in Psalm 73, and you think to yourself, Man, to those who don't follow Jesus,

[\[00:11:56\]](#transcript-00-11-56-149) seems like their life is all put together, they have all the money they could need, all the protection, there's like no problems.

[\[00:12:02\]](#transcript-00-12-02-150) And I'm over here, and it seems like God doesn't even care about what's going on with me.

[\[00:12:07\]](#transcript-00-12-07-151) I pray all the time, and yet the world, it's just horrible.

[\[00:12:11\]](#transcript-00-12-11-152) And then you, your faith, you're questioning everything.

[\[00:12:14\]](#transcript-00-12-14-153) Like, why, why would God ever want me?

[\[00:12:17\]](#transcript-00-12-17-154) Like, how could I even be a Christian?

[\[00:12:19\]](#transcript-00-12-19-155) I mean, look at, look, why would God ever want to use me?

[\[00:12:22\]](#transcript-00-12-22-156) I am the weakest, worthless person.

[\[00:12:26\]](#transcript-00-12-26-157) Why am I even here?

[\[00:12:28\]](#transcript-00-12-28-158) These are all real questions.

[\[00:12:29\]](#transcript-00-12-29-159) And how do I know this?

[\[00:12:30\]](#transcript-00-12-30-160) Because I read your comments.

[\[00:12:32\]](#transcript-00-12-32-161) I read the messages that you send me about how you're finding hope in despair.

[\[00:12:37\]](#transcript-00-12-37-162) There are so many people.

[\[00:12:39\]](#transcript-00-12-39-163) I just got another email.

[\[00:12:41\]](#transcript-00-12-41-164) I don't know what it is, but there's an older generation that has found this channel, and they are watching this message.

[\[00:12:47\]](#transcript-00-12-47-165) They'll say things like, I've been a Christian for 40 years, 50 years, 60 years, and have never found rest in Christ.

[\[00:12:53\]](#transcript-00-12-53-166) I just heart breaking to think that that is the reality, which is why I wrote this book Enough in Christ.

[\[00:12:59\]](#transcript-00-12-59-167) And then I want to teach you how to learn this for you, how to understand and do this for yourself in scripture, which is why I wrote the book, The Bible According to Jesus.

[\[00:13:08\]](#transcript-00-13-08-168) So let's talk about this concept that Peter and Paul are giving to Christians about standing firm because it sounds like: hey, don't give up, be stronger, be better.

[\[00:13:21\]](#transcript-00-13-21-169) Don't you give in to the enemy.

[\[00:13:23\]](#transcript-00-13-23-170) And it feels very much like a motivational speech to try harder.

[\[00:13:28\]](#transcript-00-13-28-171) That's what it sounds like.

[\[00:13:31\]](#transcript-00-13-31-172) And the finger is kind of pointing at you.

[\[00:13:33\]](#transcript-00-13-33-173) Like you better, you better fight Satan or else.

[\[00:13:35\]](#transcript-00-13-35-174) That's what it sounds like.

[\[00:13:37\]](#transcript-00-13-37-175) Uh, it's terrifying when you think about it in that way.

[\[00:13:40\]](#transcript-00-13-40-176) Like, I well, I know, I know I need to stand firm, but I'm not.

[\[00:13:45\]](#transcript-00-13-45-177) Like, I know I need to do something different, but I'm not.

[\[00:13:48\]](#transcript-00-13-48-178) What am I supposed to do?

[\[00:13:51\]](#transcript-00-13-51-179) That's what I'm going to talk about today.

[\[00:13:53\]](#transcript-00-13-53-180) Let's begin with the word picture Paul and Peter are using.

[\[00:13:58\]](#transcript-00-13-58-181) Both of them are using it in a military sense.

[\[00:14:02\]](#transcript-00-14-02-182) And it's important because if you go back to a couple of weeks ago when we talked about 1 John in context, again, a whole chapter in my book on the Bible according to Jesus on reading something in context,

[\[00:14:11\]](#transcript-00-14-11-183) there's no way you're going to come to the proper interpretation and understanding and joy and hope if you don't understand what the writer intended for you to understand by either the word choice or the word picture.

[\[00:14:25\]](#transcript-00-14-25-184) Okay, there's word pictures that are used all of the time, and stand firm is definitely one of them.

[\[00:14:30\]](#transcript-00-14-30-185) Walk is another one.

[\[00:14:31\]](#transcript-00-14-31-186) How do you walk in a certain way?

[\[00:14:33\]](#transcript-00-14-33-187) But right now, we're going to talk about what does it mean when Peter and Paul tell us to stand firm or withstand, which would be with a negative, where it's to stand against something.

[\[00:14:45\]](#transcript-00-14-45-188) What do they mean by that?

[\[00:14:46\]](#transcript-00-14-46-189) So let's jump into this word for a little bit.

[\[00:14:49\]](#transcript-00-14-49-190) So, this word is used quite a bit.

[\[00:14:51\]](#transcript-00-14-51-191) It's the same word, and it has its original root, which Uh, to the original root word.

[\[00:14:58\]](#transcript-00-14-58-192) If you look it up, we're not going to get into a Greek lesson here.

[\[00:15:01\]](#transcript-00-15-01-193) But if you look it up, at its base level, it just means to stand, to set, to place, or cause to stand.

[\[00:15:07\]](#transcript-00-15-07-194) And it's important to understand that last one, to cause to stand, meaning that Uh, there is a there is an essence where you are being set into place.

[\[00:15:16\]](#transcript-00-15-16-195) In Ephesians 6, 11, 13, 14, and 2 Corinthians 1, 24, they all use this word and this idea that we are to stand firm in something, meaning that there is a place where you can put your feet down

[\[00:15:34\]](#transcript-00-15-34-196) and you do so without wondering if you're going to stumble.

[\[00:15:37\]](#transcript-00-15-37-197) That this is sure ground, this is a safe place, and you can dig your heels in.

[\[00:15:44\]](#transcript-00-15-44-198) Colossians uses it as well, and it's talking about the struggle that they have.

[\[00:15:49\]](#transcript-00-15-49-199) Like, for instance, this is Colossians 4:12.

[\[00:15:53\]](#transcript-00-15-53-200) Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always struggling on your behalf in his prayer that you may stand mature and fully assured in the will of God.

[\[00:16:05\]](#transcript-00-16-05-201) So there's this concept of like assurity of footing, like you can put your feet down here, and there you can be assured.

[\[00:16:14\]](#transcript-00-16-14-202) And then there's another way in which it's used.

[\[00:16:18\]](#transcript-00-16-18-203) Um, well, let me finish this imagery.

[\[00:16:22\]](#transcript-00-16-22-204) Paul, as he's writing to the Ephesians, he's most likely in prison.

[\[00:16:26\]](#transcript-00-16-26-205) It's a prison epistle.

[\[00:16:27\]](#transcript-00-16-27-206) And what I'm not most likely is in prison.

[\[00:16:29\]](#transcript-00-16-29-207) He is in prison.

[\[00:16:30\]](#transcript-00-16-30-208) But he's chained to a Roman guard.

[\[00:16:33\]](#transcript-00-16-33-209) And so Paul is probably writing this letter, thinking about this Roman guard, looking down at his feet, and understanding how the Roman centurion, like how those Roman soldiers would work in battle.

[\[00:16:46\]](#transcript-00-16-46-210) And what often would happen is as the battle would move forward and ground would be won, and that part of the battlefield is now victoriously under the Roman siege, they would, on their sandals, they would have these like

[\[00:17:01\]](#transcript-00-17-01-211) metal spikes, these nails, these they call them knobs that would come out at the bottom of it, like cleats for an athlete.

[\[00:17:09\]](#transcript-00-17-09-212) And they would use them to hold firm so they could plant their feet and not slide, like if you just had cowboy boots or sandals, you're going to slide all over the place.

[\[00:17:19\]](#transcript-00-17-19-213) You could plant your feet down, and with their shields, they would lock their shields together and plant their feet, and they would hold that part of the field because it now was theirs.

[\[00:17:28\]](#transcript-00-17-28-214) They had advanced and they're holding.

[\[00:17:30\]](#transcript-00-17-30-215) That's the exact imagery that

[\[00:17:35\]](#transcript-00-17-35-216) Paul is using here, and Peter is using that you are planting your feet on solid, victorious ground.

[\[00:17:44\]](#transcript-00-17-44-217) Now, we're gonna spend some more time on this in a minute, but this is amazing, it is not go win the battle and stand firm in that victory.

[\[00:17:57\]](#transcript-00-17-57-218) That's not what he's saying.

[\[00:17:58\]](#transcript-00-17-58-219) He's not saying the war is up to you to go and win, and when you win, you stand firm in that battle.

[\[00:18:05\]](#transcript-00-18-05-220) It's not an advancing word.

[\[00:18:07\]](#transcript-00-18-07-221) This is not a word that's being used here in its language, in its context, and the way in which Paul's intending and Peter is intending it.

[\[00:18:15\]](#transcript-00-18-15-222) It's not that we are advancing.

[\[00:18:18\]](#transcript-00-18-18-223) He's saying, stand firm on this victorious ground.

[\[00:18:24\]](#transcript-00-18-24-224) You see, the king won the victory, and now you're going to stand there in that place because it is already won.

[\[00:18:36\]](#transcript-00-18-36-225) You see how this changes everything.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-226) You're not winning the war so that you can receive the benefits of it.

[\[00:18:45\]](#transcript-00-18-45-227) It says that he has already won the victory.

[\[00:18:48\]](#transcript-00-18-48-228) How do we know this?

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-229) Because we are told multiple times.

[\[00:18:51\]](#transcript-00-18-51-230) I mean, think about it this way: this is Colossians 2:14 and 15.

[\[00:18:55\]](#transcript-00-18-55-231) Talking about winning the victory, right?

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-232) Jesus Christ, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands, this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

[\[00:19:05\]](#transcript-00-19-05-233) He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame by triumphing over him.

[\[00:19:10\]](#transcript-00-19-10-234) Okay, that's the ground that was won.

[\[00:19:13\]](#transcript-00-19-13-235) He took your sin and paid for it.

[\[00:19:16\]](#transcript-00-19-16-236) And then all of those who are coming after you and accusing you and holding you captive, enslaved on this battlefield of the cross, when he rose from the grave, he victoriously set us free and set us on the

[\[00:19:30\]](#transcript-00-19-30-237) ground of you are no longer under condemnation, and these enemies can no longer condemn you, and they can no longer control you.

[\[00:19:37\]](#transcript-00-19-37-238) Ephesians 2, right?

[\[00:19:38\]](#transcript-00-19-38-239) Talks about where we were once children of wrath, following the course of this world, following the principality of the air, and that we were giving into all of these horrible desires.

[\[00:19:49\]](#transcript-00-19-49-240) This is Hebrews 10:12 and 13.

[\[00:19:52\]](#transcript-00-19-52-241) But when Christ offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

[\[00:20:04\]](#transcript-00-20-04-242) You see, you're not on the battlefield winning in this advancement mode, fighting for yourself, fighting for your life.

[\[00:20:11\]](#transcript-00-20-11-243) Christ fought for your life in a way that's so mind-blowing.

[\[00:20:15\]](#transcript-00-20-15-244) He died.

[\[00:20:16\]](#transcript-00-20-16-245) Jesus died and then won the battle on the battlefield, which is so absurd, right?

[\[00:20:21\]](#transcript-00-20-21-246) And upside down.

[\[00:20:22\]](#transcript-00-20-22-247) That's why Paul's like, I'm not ashamed of the gospel.

[\[00:20:24\]](#transcript-00-20-24-248) It's absurd to people to think that a God can win by dying, but that's how it happened, right?

[\[00:20:31\]](#transcript-00-20-31-249) And so that's where you're standing.

[\[00:20:33\]](#transcript-00-20-33-250) 1 Corinthians 15:57.

[\[00:20:34\]](#transcript-00-20-34-251) But thanks be to God who gave us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[\[00:20:39\]](#transcript-00-20-39-252) So when you stand firm in your faith, you're standing faith, you're standing in that position of the battlefield has been won for your soul, and you have been set free, and all of the guilt and shame, and all

[\[00:20:50\]](#transcript-00-20-50-253) of the righteousness is needed, that's where you're standing.

[\[00:20:54\]](#transcript-00-20-54-254) Like you're, you're when he says, you know, shod your feet with what are you doing?

[\[00:20:59\]](#transcript-00-20-59-255) You're standing on the work that's already been given to you by Christ.

[\[00:21:03\]](#transcript-00-21-03-256) The whole armor of God is Christ for you in all the ways in which he has saved you.

[\[00:21:08\]](#transcript-00-21-08-257) So you're standing in the finished work that you are righteous by Christ's inheritance.

[\[00:21:14\]](#transcript-00-21-14-258) You are forgiven by Christ's mercy.

[\[00:21:16\]](#transcript-00-21-16-259) You are loved by God's grace.

[\[00:21:18\]](#transcript-00-21-18-260) And the only way you can stand there, and this is where I love this imagery.

[\[00:21:22\]](#transcript-00-21-22-261) Going back to the original one, the language, and I do believe that this is what is

[\[00:21:29\]](#transcript-00-21-29-262) being intended here.

[\[00:21:31\]](#transcript-00-21-31-263) It's not, you can have this confidence if you go stand there.

[\[00:21:38\]](#transcript-00-21-38-264) That's not what he says.

[\[00:21:39\]](#transcript-00-21-39-265) The word that's there is being one who has been pushed there to stand.

[\[00:21:46\]](#transcript-00-21-46-266) You see this?

[\[00:21:47\]](#transcript-00-21-47-267) Like the way in which that word is being used, if you go back to its original attentions, caused to stand, caused to stand.

[\[00:21:57\]](#transcript-00-21-57-268) He's saying, God caused you to stand there, he puts you there, and you have no reason to go anywhere else.

[\[00:22:07\]](#transcript-00-22-07-269) There's no more walking.

[\[00:22:09\]](#transcript-00-22-09-270) There's no more advancing.

[\[00:22:11\]](#transcript-00-22-11-271) There's nothing more for you to do.

[\[00:22:13\]](#transcript-00-22-13-272) You can just stand there in the reality of what has been given to you.

[\[00:22:18\]](#transcript-00-22-18-273) This is what I love about 2 Peter 1 when he says, His divine power has granted to you all things that pertain to life and godliness, that means he brought you to life, he gave you faith, he gave

[\[00:22:29\]](#transcript-00-22-29-274) you righteousness, he loves you, his power lives within you, he's put you in the body of Christ, he's given you a book.

[\[00:22:35\]](#transcript-00-22-35-275) He's given you hope.

[\[00:22:36\]](#transcript-00-22-36-276) Now sing, now pray, now joy.

[\[00:22:37\]](#transcript-00-22-37-277) Now build one another up.

[\[00:22:39\]](#transcript-00-22-39-278) Why?

[\[00:22:40\]](#transcript-00-22-40-279) Because he has caused you to stand in his faith, and you don't need to go anywhere else.

[\[00:22:47\]](#transcript-00-22-47-280) Stand firm there.

[\[00:22:49\]](#transcript-00-22-49-281) You're going to be fine, firm, right there.

[\[00:22:51\]](#transcript-00-22-51-282) You see, that's different because the way it's made sound is like you need to get up and advance this.

[\[00:22:57\]](#transcript-00-22-57-283) Uh, you need to be advancing, you need to be a progressing, you need to be doing winning the war, winning battles, all this kind of stuff.

[\[00:23:04\]](#transcript-00-23-04-284) That's not what they're saying.

[\[00:23:06\]](#transcript-00-23-06-285) The way in which they're using this word is that He caused you by His divine power through His work, through the victory in your life, he did all of that.

[\[00:23:18\]](#transcript-00-23-18-286) And not only that, he put you there.

[\[00:23:20\]](#transcript-00-23-20-287) He caused you to stand.

[\[00:23:22\]](#transcript-00-23-22-288) Now, just stand firm there.

[\[00:23:23\]](#transcript-00-23-23-289) You don't need to go anywhere else.

[\[00:23:25\]](#transcript-00-23-25-290) You're going to be tempted to put your faith in yourself, put your faith in your faithfulness, put your faith in your decision.

[\[00:23:31\]](#transcript-00-23-31-291) And there's so many people like, I just don't know if I was legitimate, I don't know if I don't know if I really meant it.

[\[00:23:38\]](#transcript-00-23-38-292) Well, that's you causing yourself to stand.

[\[00:23:40\]](#transcript-00-23-40-293) You didn't cause yourself to stand, he did.

[\[00:23:43\]](#transcript-00-23-43-294) Do you believe in Christ?

[\[00:23:44\]](#transcript-00-23-44-295) Yes, then you're standing.

[\[00:23:47\]](#transcript-00-23-47-296) Don't waver, don't let someone think a decision, a prayer, some kind of faithfulness or dedication, enough repentance, whatever you want to put in there, enough Bible reading, whatever you want to put in there that thinks that you think

[\[00:23:59\]](#transcript-00-23-59-297) that you're going to advance your assurance down the line because of your, it's not going to happen.

[\[00:24:05\]](#transcript-00-24-05-298) The work has been done.

[\[00:24:08\]](#transcript-00-24-08-299) The victory is his.

[\[00:24:10\]](#transcript-00-24-10-300) He put you there.

[\[00:24:11\]](#transcript-00-24-11-301) And he says, now just stand there.

[\[00:24:14\]](#transcript-00-24-14-302) Now that it makes it sound like, well, we're not to be doing anything, yeah, you're in a war.

[\[00:24:23\]](#transcript-00-24-23-303) Like, that's why Paul is using military language.

[\[00:24:26\]](#transcript-00-24-26-304) You are facing the enemy through ground that has been victoriously won.

[\[00:24:32\]](#transcript-00-24-32-305) And the enemy wants you to get off that ground because they don't want you giving confidence to people around you or confidence to yourself.

[\[00:24:40\]](#transcript-00-24-40-306) So there's no confidence in you because you're not the one who did it.

[\[00:24:44\]](#transcript-00-24-44-307) That's why Paul's like, Peter, hey, resist him.

[\[00:24:48\]](#transcript-00-24-48-308) How do you resist him?

[\[00:24:50\]](#transcript-00-24-50-309) Not in your wisdom, not in your discipline, not in your faithfulness, not in your dedication.

[\[00:24:56\]](#transcript-00-24-56-310) First Peter, he says, resist him firm in your faith, not your faithfulness, your faith in the work of Jesus Christ for you.

[\[00:25:03\]](#transcript-00-25-03-311) That's where you're standing.

[\[00:25:05\]](#transcript-00-25-05-312) So the image that he's using, stand firm, is not a call for you to pick yourself up.

[\[00:25:10\]](#transcript-00-25-10-313) It's not a call for you to, you know, strap on your boots or pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

[\[00:25:16\]](#transcript-00-25-16-314) It's a call for you to say you have nothing to worry about.

[\[00:25:21\]](#transcript-00-25-21-315) He has won the victory.

[\[00:25:24\]](#transcript-00-25-24-316) He has protected your feet, he's given you the helmet of salvation, he's given you the shield of faith, he's given you brothers and sisters around you, and now stand in that victory with a smile on your face, you

[\[00:25:37\]](#transcript-00-25-37-317) can know that there's nothing left for you to do as it relates to your relationship to your king.

[\[00:25:43\]](#transcript-00-25-43-318) You can just stand there and resist this idea that he's going to come for you.

[\[00:25:48\]](#transcript-00-25-48-319) Now, as awesome as that is, we got to keep moving because standing in your faith, not in your faithfulness, standing in Christ.

[\[00:26:00\]](#transcript-00-26-00-320) Well, it can make it sound like your life's going to be better.

[\[00:26:05\]](#transcript-00-26-05-321) You know, John, tell me how to stand in my faith so my life will be better so I can have happiness and joy.

[\[00:26:12\]](#transcript-00-26-12-322) Well, let's be honest about this because, in those same passages that talk about us standing firm in our faith, they're telling them to do that in the midst of the fire, in the midst of the storm, and in

[\[00:26:23\]](#transcript-00-26-23-323) the midst of their death.

[\[00:26:26\]](#transcript-00-26-26-324) Do you ever wake up already feeling spiritually behind?

[\[00:26:29\]](#transcript-00-26-29-325) Like no matter how much you pray, how much you read, or how much you serve, it's just never quite enough.

[\[00:26:36\]](#transcript-00-26-36-326) Well, friend, you're not lazy and you're not faithless.

[\[00:26:40\]](#transcript-00-26-40-327) You're tired and you're not alone.

[\[00:26:43\]](#transcript-00-26-43-328) So many of us are living in a quiet prison.

[\[00:26:45\]](#transcript-00-26-45-329) The one that whispers, Grace saved you, but now it's up to you to keep it up.

[\[00:26:50\]](#transcript-00-26-50-330) The one that turns rest into guilt.

[\[00:26:53\]](#transcript-00-26-53-331) The one that makes you wonder if God is a little disappointed in you today.

[\[00:26:57\]](#transcript-00-26-57-332) I wrote a new book just for you.

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-333) It's called Enough in Christ: Freedom from a Performance-Driven Life.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-334) It's a book that takes you back to what Christ actually said from the cross.

[\[00:27:08\]](#transcript-00-27-08-335) It is finished.

[\[00:27:09\]](#transcript-00-27-09-336) And shows you how to stop living like there's still work for you to do.

[\[00:27:14\]](#transcript-00-27-14-337) You can download the whole book free at theocast.org.

[\[00:27:18\]](#transcript-00-27-18-338) Christ really is enough, and in him, so are you.

[\[00:27:23\]](#transcript-00-27-23-339) I use this illustration a couple of weeks ago, but a lot of people in the Old and New Testament didn't get freedom from the storm, but God was with them through the storm in their faith.

[\[00:27:38\]](#transcript-00-27-38-340) And many suffered, and many died, and all made it home victorious.

[\[00:27:42\]](#transcript-00-27-42-341) Why?

[\[00:27:42\]](#transcript-00-27-42-342) Because it's not the experience on earth that creates our joy and our salvation, but it's the hope of that which is to come.

[\[00:27:50\]](#transcript-00-27-50-343) Hebrews talks about this.

[\[00:27:51\]](#transcript-00-27-51-344) They didn't long for a land that they could see, they longed for a country they could not see because they knew that the king was going to come back.

[\[00:27:58\]](#transcript-00-27-58-345) Look, I'm going to take a moment and pause here before we go forward.

[\[00:28:02\]](#transcript-00-28-02-346) This is the supernatural nature of the gospel that I've been trying to fight for for a very long time, fighting against pietism and revivalism and this self-introspection, which I think is extremely demonic and satanic.

[\[00:28:15\]](#transcript-00-28-15-347) It has destroyed so many people, so many sermons that have been preached that are Christless, which means they're powerless.

[\[00:28:23\]](#transcript-00-28-23-348) If you have not Christ to preach, you should not preach at all.

[\[00:28:26\]](#transcript-00-28-26-349) I think there are many sermons that are not sermons at all.

[\[00:28:29\]](#transcript-00-28-29-350) Preaching literally means to herald and persuade one that Christ is sufficient.

[\[00:28:34\]](#transcript-00-28-34-351) This is the point of the book.

[\[00:28:35\]](#transcript-00-28-35-352) And if we're not doing that, then what are we doing?

[\[00:28:39\]](#transcript-00-28-39-353) And I am convinced of that, which is why I say the Bible is about Jesus, and maybe we should hear him teach us how to read it, how to understand it, how to preach it.

[\[00:28:49\]](#transcript-00-28-49-354) And he gets angry with the Pharisees and he says, They wrote of me.

[\[00:28:52\]](#transcript-00-28-52-355) If you would have read the prophets and understood them properly, you would have known they were writing of me.

[\[00:28:57\]](#transcript-00-28-57-356) And yet, you didn't, because you are self-righteous and you want to save yourself by your own righteousness.

[\[00:29:05\]](#transcript-00-29-05-357) For I have come to seek and to save that which is lost, sick, blind, and deaf.

[\[00:29:09\]](#transcript-00-29-09-358) And so if you're sitting here and you're thinking to yourself, that is me, I am lost, I'm sick.

[\[00:29:14\]](#transcript-00-29-14-359) I am weak.

[\[00:29:15\]](#transcript-00-29-15-360) I am not a strong Christian.

[\[00:29:16\]](#transcript-00-29-16-361) I can barely survive.

[\[00:29:18\]](#transcript-00-29-18-362) Then, what I have to say is for you next because Christ is for you.

[\[00:29:22\]](#transcript-00-29-22-363) Christ is for those who are sick, and weak, and frail.

[\[00:29:27\]](#transcript-00-29-27-364) I want you to hear who and why Paul is telling us to stand firm in our faith, the scenarios and situations that we find ourselves in.

[\[00:29:39\]](#transcript-00-29-39-365) We think to ourselves, well, those Christians who are unshakable, the really mature Christians, you know, the ones who do podcasts and are pastors.

[\[00:29:53\]](#transcript-00-29-53-366) There's a lot of pastors falling right now and a lot of podcasters fumbling.

[\[00:29:58\]](#transcript-00-29-58-367) So don't think because there's a platform that somehow they have strength.

[\[00:30:02\]](#transcript-00-30-02-368) Strength doesn't come in a platform.

[\[00:30:04\]](#transcript-00-30-04-369) Strength doesn't come in social

[\[00:30:09\]](#transcript-00-30-09-370) influence.

[\[00:30:10\]](#transcript-00-30-10-371) Strength always comes in the Lord.

[\[00:30:12\]](#transcript-00-30-12-372) No matter if you're influencing your own self or a million people, it always comes in the Lord.

[\[00:30:19\]](#transcript-00-30-19-373) When you think about the testimony of Paul and Peter, and they were both men who died for their faith, then they were telling congregants to stand firm in their faith.

[\[00:30:29\]](#transcript-00-30-29-374) I want you to hear their experience.

[\[00:30:31\]](#transcript-00-30-31-375) These are men, I do believe, stood firm in their faith because they died for it, they preached it constantly, they pointed people to it.

[\[00:30:39\]](#transcript-00-30-39-376) Listen to how Paul describes his experience because what I want, I don't want you to hear is another false prosperity gospel that if you stand firm in your faith, then your life's going to get better.

[\[00:30:49\]](#transcript-00-30-49-377) No, you're going to need to stand in your faith because life is really hard, and we're going to be tempted to go towards something else, some other solution.

[\[00:30:59\]](#transcript-00-30-59-378) So, here, this is 2 Corinthians 1:8 through 9.

[\[00:31:02\]](#transcript-00-31-02-379) Paul says, For we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of the afflictions we experienced in Asia, for we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself.

[\[00:31:21\]](#transcript-00-31-21-380) Somehow we forgot that's in the New Testament.

[\[00:31:24\]](#transcript-00-31-24-381) Like, Paul's like this superhuman.

[\[00:31:26\]](#transcript-00-31-26-382) Paul's not superhuman.

[\[00:31:27\]](#transcript-00-31-27-383) He got headaches and had to sleep and had upset stomachs.

[\[00:31:34\]](#transcript-00-31-34-384) And he at times was really discouraged and he despaired.

[\[00:31:40\]](#transcript-00-31-40-385) Like he was really, really sad up to the point where life itself.

[\[00:31:46\]](#transcript-00-31-46-386) And this is a man who's telling you to stand firm in your faith.

[\[00:31:50\]](#transcript-00-31-50-387) Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death, but that was to make us rely not on ourselves, but on God who raises the dead.

[\[00:32:04\]](#transcript-00-32-04-388) So, Paul's response is: in the moments that you are feeling like, I just can't do this.

[\[00:32:13\]](#transcript-00-32-13-389) Yeah, that's where you're going to need something outside of yourself.

[\[00:32:18\]](#transcript-00-32-18-390) There is no hope in the world.

[\[00:32:21\]](#transcript-00-32-21-391) As much as the world has done a fantastic job advertising that, there is just no hope.

[\[00:32:27\]](#transcript-00-32-27-392) 2 Corinthians 7:5.

[\[00:32:29\]](#transcript-00-32-29-393) For even when we came into Macedonia, our bodies had no rest, but we were afflicted at every turn, fighting without and fear within.

[\[00:32:43\]](#transcript-00-32-43-394) He was afraid, he was exhausted, and he is the one who's telling us to stand firm in our faith.

[\[00:32:50\]](#transcript-00-32-50-395) So, the man who's telling us to stand firm in our faith is not expressing a life of ease.

[\[00:32:58\]](#transcript-00-32-58-396) 1 Corinthians 2:3, and I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling.

[\[00:33:04\]](#transcript-00-33-04-397) This doesn't sound like the strong, gregarious guy who's got it all under control.

[\[00:33:10\]](#transcript-00-33-10-398) He sounds like a guy that somehow supernaturally is doing the work of God by God's means and God's ways, and he doesn't need powerful Paul to do it.

[\[00:33:18\]](#transcript-00-33-18-399) He needs weak, frail, fumbling, bumbling Paul to do it.

[\[00:33:26\]](#transcript-00-33-26-400) This 2 Corinthians 4, 8, and 9.

[\[00:33:29\]](#transcript-00-33-29-401) We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed, perplexed, but not driven to despair, persecuted, but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed.

[\[00:33:40\]](#transcript-00-33-40-402) He's standing in a battlefield.

[\[00:33:43\]](#transcript-00-33-43-403) You see, Paul physically often felt these afflictions because he was advancing the gospel and he was being opposed.

[\[00:33:53\]](#transcript-00-33-53-404) And then there are times where it's just he's a part of a broken world.

[\[00:33:57\]](#transcript-00-33-57-405) Like, we can't blame everything on spiritual warfare.

[\[00:34:00\]](#transcript-00-34-00-406) You just live in a broken world.

[\[00:34:04\]](#transcript-00-34-04-407) So,

[\[00:34:06\]](#transcript-00-34-06-408) this idea that you're going to walk away from today's episode, and you're like, All right, I just need to stand firm in my faith, and then it'll make everything better.

[\[00:34:12\]](#transcript-00-34-12-409) No, you're missing it.

[\[00:34:15\]](#transcript-00-34-15-410) That's not what I'm saying.

[\[00:34:18\]](#transcript-00-34-18-411) That's not what I'm saying at all.

[\[00:34:21\]](#transcript-00-34-21-412) He's not saying because I stand firm in my faith, I feel great.

[\[00:34:25\]](#transcript-00-34-25-413) He's like, no, at times it's pretty bad.

[\[00:34:28\]](#transcript-00-34-28-414) But what else am I to do?

[\[00:34:29\]](#transcript-00-34-29-415) I love this conversation that Jesus has with Peter in John 6 when everybody walks away from him and he looks at him and he says, Are you going to leave me too?

[\[00:34:39\]](#transcript-00-34-39-416) And Peter says, Where would we go?

[\[00:34:42\]](#transcript-00-34-42-417) For you have the words of eternal life.

[\[00:34:46\]](#transcript-00-34-46-418) If you're actually suffering right now and you're in great despair, God has opened your mind to see what the rest of the world cannot see.

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-419) It's like that moment with Neo in the Matrix, where his eyes are opened and he sees reality and he can't unsee it.

[\[00:35:07\]](#transcript-00-35-07-420) For those of you that live in despair and are broken and are exhausted and are afraid, and you have no strength?

[\[00:35:17\]](#transcript-00-35-17-421) God has given you a gift because you actually see the world for what it is.

[\[00:35:24\]](#transcript-00-35-24-422) No hope.

[\[00:35:26\]](#transcript-00-35-26-423) There is no hope.

[\[00:35:28\]](#transcript-00-35-28-424) Not outside of Christ.

[\[00:35:30\]](#transcript-00-35-30-425) There is no hope.

[\[00:35:32\]](#transcript-00-35-32-426) None whatsoever.

[\[00:35:34\]](#transcript-00-35-34-427) This is why Paul says there's this way you have to view yourself.

[\[00:35:39\]](#transcript-00-35-39-428) This is 2 Corinthians 4:7.

[\[00:35:41\]](#transcript-00-35-41-429) But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.

[\[00:35:50\]](#transcript-00-35-50-430) You know, when people come and they learn about the power of the gospel, the hope of true life, true joy, forgiveness, and peace and love, being loved in a way that no human could ever love.

[\[00:36:06\]](#transcript-00-36-06-431) Only a God could love that way.

[\[00:36:08\]](#transcript-00-36-08-432) The pure and right and holy and righteous God who loves you.

[\[00:36:13\]](#transcript-00-36-13-433) In jars of clay, we're so weak, easily dropped, easily squeezed, and shatter we go.

[\[00:36:21\]](#transcript-00-36-21-434) My encouragement to you is that this is where Paul goes back, and I did an episode on this a while back, but this idea of grace is not just a word, but it is a source of supernatural power.

[\[00:36:34\]](#transcript-00-36-34-435) Listen to how Paul words it in this way: 2 Corinthians 12, 7 through 10.

[\[00:36:39\]](#transcript-00-36-39-436) So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelation, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

[\[00:36:51\]](#transcript-00-36-51-437) Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.

[\[00:36:56\]](#transcript-00-36-56-438) But he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.

[\[00:37:05\]](#transcript-00-37-05-439) Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weakness, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

[\[00:37:12\]](#transcript-00-37-12-440) For the sake of Christ, then I am content, that weakness, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities.

[\[00:37:18\]](#transcript-00-37-18-441) For when I am weak, then I am strong.

[\[00:37:20\]](#transcript-00-37-20-442) For when you are weak, you see

[\[00:37:23\]](#transcript-00-37-23-443) the clearest of them all.

[\[00:37:27\]](#transcript-00-37-27-444) Don't think there's something wrong with you because you're suffering or you're weak or you're frail.

[\[00:37:36\]](#transcript-00-37-36-445) You actually need to be thankful that you can see what others cannot.

[\[00:37:41\]](#transcript-00-37-41-446) And it gives you the whole reason to run to Christ, to trust that his love and his power and his ways and his gifts are sufficient to get you through.

[\[00:37:54\]](#transcript-00-37-54-447) That doesn't mean you're not going to be perplexed or have fear and anxiety and struggle.

[\[00:38:00\]](#transcript-00-38-00-448) That is the prosperity gospel again.

[\[00:38:03\]](#transcript-00-38-03-449) Our joy is one that we know that this is not it.

[\[00:38:08\]](#transcript-00-38-08-450) This isn't the end of the story.

[\[00:38:10\]](#transcript-00-38-10-451) Our biography will not be written here on this earth, but it's written in heaven.

[\[00:38:16\]](#transcript-00-38-16-452) Our names are in a different book.

[\[00:38:18\]](#transcript-00-38-18-453) Who cares what the world thinks?

[\[00:38:21\]](#transcript-00-38-21-454) Who cares if they make a documentary about you?

[\[00:38:24\]](#transcript-00-38-24-455) Your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

[\[00:38:27\]](#transcript-00-38-27-456) Your father

[\[00:38:29\]](#transcript-00-38-29-457) gathers your tears into a bottle because he cares about you.

[\[00:38:34\]](#transcript-00-38-34-458) He says, Hey, come to me and tell me your anxiety.

[\[00:38:37\]](#transcript-00-38-37-459) I care.

[\[00:38:38\]](#transcript-00-38-38-460) I'm sympathetic.

[\[00:38:39\]](#transcript-00-38-39-461) I know.

[\[00:38:40\]](#transcript-00-38-40-462) I know your struggles because I was there.

[\[00:38:43\]](#transcript-00-38-43-463) I know your struggles.

[\[00:38:46\]](#transcript-00-38-46-464) Sometimes, when I think about my experience in life,

[\[00:38:53\]](#transcript-00-38-53-465) you know, it feels like I'm dangling over a cliff and I am holding so tightly onto the rope because I know if I let that rope go, I am gone.

[\[00:39:07\]](#transcript-00-39-07-466) Like, I'm gonna fall.

[\[00:39:09\]](#transcript-00-39-09-467) So, I live in this constant state of fear, but I know I'm secure because I'm holding the rope that's attached right to my safety that's keeping me from falling.

[\[00:39:23\]](#transcript-00-39-23-468) And what's interesting about this illustration, that's the feeling I have.

[\[00:39:26\]](#transcript-00-39-26-469) So when Paul says, stand firm in your faith, and I'm like, yeah, I have if I let go of Christ, I know I'm doomed.

[\[00:39:33\]](#transcript-00-39-33-470) If I let go of him, I know it's over.

[\[00:39:36\]](#transcript-00-39-36-471) So that command to tell me to stand firm in him, other people hear that as a bad thing.

[\[00:39:41\]](#transcript-00-39-41-472) I'm like, no, I get it.

[\[00:39:42\]](#transcript-00-39-42-473) I know why you're doing that because if I try and go towards the flesh or to fame or to money or sexuality or any of these other promises, I am, I am, I will, they will not satisfy it,

[\[00:39:54\]](#transcript-00-39-54-474) they will not save, they will not sustain.

[\[00:39:58\]](#transcript-00-39-58-475) And as much as I think that I'm dangling off the side of that cliff and I'm holding onto the rope, that's how it feels at times.

[\[00:40:05\]](#transcript-00-40-05-476) Like my grip is so, like, I've got rope burn.

[\[00:40:08\]](#transcript-00-40-08-477) I'm exhausted.

[\[00:40:09\]](#transcript-00-40-09-478) I'm afraid.

[\[00:40:10\]](#transcript-00-40-10-479) I don't feel like I could rest.

[\[00:40:12\]](#transcript-00-40-12-480) Then I am remembered that I am not holding on to Christ.

[\[00:40:19\]](#transcript-00-40-19-481) He's holding on to me.

[\[00:40:22\]](#transcript-00-40-22-482) And I might be dangling off a cliff, and that's how it feels.

[\[00:40:26\]](#transcript-00-40-26-483) He'll never let me go.

[\[00:40:29\]](#transcript-00-40-29-484) Listen to how your king talks to you.

[\[00:40:31\]](#transcript-00-40-31-485) This is John 10:28, 29.

[\[00:40:33\]](#transcript-00-40-33-486) I give them eternal life, and I, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

[\[00:40:41\]](#transcript-00-40-41-487) My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one will snatch them out.

[\[00:40:46\]](#transcript-00-40-46-488) See, he's holding you.

[\[00:40:47\]](#transcript-00-40-47-489) Your life feels like you're dangling over a cliff, and you think you're holding onto that rope tight.

[\[00:40:52\]](#transcript-00-40-52-490) And Jesus says, No, I'm holding you.

[\[00:40:55\]](#transcript-00-40-55-491) I know that's how it feels, and I understand that's how it feels, but I'm holding you.

[\[00:41:01\]](#transcript-00-41-01-492) I'm holding you fast.

[\[00:41:03\]](#transcript-00-41-03-493) Jude 24.

[\[00:41:05\]](#transcript-00-41-05-494) Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.

[\[00:41:12\]](#transcript-00-41-12-495) Who?

[\[00:41:13\]](#transcript-00-41-13-496) Not you.

[\[00:41:14\]](#transcript-00-41-14-497) You're not going to keep yourself from stumbling.

[\[00:41:16\]](#transcript-00-41-16-498) He is going to do that.

[\[00:41:18\]](#transcript-00-41-18-499) Philippians 1:6.

[\[00:41:20\]](#transcript-00-41-20-500) And I am sure of this: that he who began a good work in you will keep it, will bring it to completion on the day of Jesus Christ.

[\[00:41:28\]](#transcript-00-41-28-501) He is what?

[\[00:41:29\]](#transcript-00-41-29-502) He's sure of it.

[\[00:41:31\]](#transcript-00-41-31-503) That's not you holding on.

[\[00:41:33\]](#transcript-00-41-33-504) That's him holding on to you.

[\[00:41:35\]](#transcript-00-41-35-505) 1 Peter 1:5.

[\[00:41:36\]](#transcript-00-41-36-506) And by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last day.

[\[00:41:42\]](#transcript-00-41-42-507) Dear Saint, I know it feels like the thread is about to snap.

[\[00:41:46\]](#transcript-00-41-46-508) That's because Satan's really good at getting our eyes on us.

[\[00:41:52\]](#transcript-00-41-52-509) Or am I enough?

[\[00:41:53\]](#transcript-00-41-53-510) Well, I do enough?

[\[00:41:55\]](#transcript-00-41-55-511) Have I done enough?

[\[00:41:56\]](#transcript-00-41-56-512) Will I make it to the end?

[\[00:41:58\]](#transcript-00-41-58-513) Am I going to stumble?

[\[00:41:59\]](#transcript-00-41-59-514) And my answer is: Christ is enough.

[\[00:42:02\]](#transcript-00-42-02-515) He truly is.

[\[00:42:03\]](#transcript-00-42-03-516) You can stand in there, you can stand no matter how you feel.

[\[00:42:08\]](#transcript-00-42-08-517) Don't let your heart and mind wander off into other hopes or fall into despair.

[\[00:42:14\]](#transcript-00-42-14-518) And you know what's crazy?

[\[00:42:17\]](#transcript-00-42-17-519) All throughout the history of the Bible, and all throughout the history of the world, God has used the last thread, despaired, broken Christians to rescue the world.

[\[00:42:33\]](#transcript-00-42-33-520) That's Paul.

[\[00:42:34\]](#transcript-00-42-34-521) Paul says, I am the greatest sinner I know.

[\[00:42:35\]](#transcript-00-42-35-522) I am the weakest man that I know.

[\[00:42:37\]](#transcript-00-42-37-523) I am a nothing man.

[\[00:42:38\]](#transcript-00-42-38-524) And that's who God chose to use.

[\[00:42:42\]](#transcript-00-42-42-525) You know, we hear about these well-spoken, um, very smart men in the old and the new testament, like Paul references them, and that they're all, you know, they're mentioned quite often.

[\[00:42:52\]](#transcript-00-42-52-526) Nobody knows their name, we don't even know what they did, but people are impressed with them.

[\[00:42:57\]](#transcript-00-42-57-527) But at the end of the day, they were nothing, as they say.

[\[00:43:00\]](#transcript-00-43-00-528) It was a nothing burger.

[\[00:43:02\]](#transcript-00-43-02-529) So, if you're sitting there, like, I could never do anything for God.

[\[00:43:07\]](#transcript-00-43-07-530) Well, that's you limiting God, that's not God limiting you.

[\[00:43:11\]](#transcript-00-43-11-531) See, God doesn't use your gifts and power through your strength.

[\[00:43:16\]](#transcript-00-43-16-532) He uses your gifts and power through his strength.

[\[00:43:19\]](#transcript-00-43-19-533) What are we called to do?

[\[00:43:21\]](#transcript-00-43-21-534) Love each other and believe the gospel and share the gospel.

[\[00:43:25\]](#transcript-00-43-25-535) That's what we're called to do.

[\[00:43:27\]](#transcript-00-43-27-536) The power is in the gospel.

[\[00:43:29\]](#transcript-00-43-29-537) It's not in your strength and your ability and nothing like that.

[\[00:43:33\]](#transcript-00-43-33-538) So, the seasons of life that I've gone through, man, this is what's got me through.

[\[00:43:39\]](#transcript-00-43-39-539) It's not my gifts, it's not my capacities, it's not my own strength.

[\[00:43:42\]](#transcript-00-43-42-540) As strong as you think I am, you're you should come stay with me for a little bit.

[\[00:43:47\]](#transcript-00-43-47-541) You're gonna find out real quick, John's not as strong as everybody thinks he is.

[\[00:43:51\]](#transcript-00-43-51-542) I'm a very weak man, and the only thing that makes hope to me that makes sense to me, and something to fight for, is the supernatural nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[\[00:44:02\]](#transcript-00-44-02-543) And I will end with this.

[\[00:44:05\]](#transcript-00-44-05-544) Peter and Paul both warn us that you're not fighting something.

[\[00:44:12\]](#transcript-00-44-12-545) What you're standing up against is not other humans, and it's not yourself.

[\[00:44:16\]](#transcript-00-44-16-546) Other humans and yourself are not your greatest threat.

[\[00:44:20\]](#transcript-00-44-20-547) It says, resist him firm in your faith, resist Satan firm in your faith.

[\[00:44:24\]](#transcript-00-44-24-548) And it says, for the day of evil is coming.

[\[00:44:26\]](#transcript-00-44-26-549) I think every moment, there's the moment in Christians' life where they will face an evil moment where Satan wants to destroy their faith.

[\[00:44:33\]](#transcript-00-44-33-550) You know, Jesus says this to Peter: Satan wants to sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you.

[\[00:44:39\]](#transcript-00-44-39-551) And he ends the prayer, the Lord's prayer, and deliver us from the evil one.

[\[00:44:43\]](#transcript-00-44-43-552) I pray this every day with my children: that we look under the King, the author and finisher of our faith.

[\[00:44:48\]](#transcript-00-44-48-553) We set our hope on him, we trust for our physical needs from him, we trust our forgiveness from him, we forgive others, and Lord, deliver us from the evil one.

[\[00:44:56\]](#transcript-00-44-56-554) Why?

[\[00:44:57\]](#transcript-00-44-57-555) Because he wants our faith to be in anything else than in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ.

[\[00:45:02\]](#transcript-00-45-02-556) I cannot think of anything more important in this life than to stand

[\[00:45:09\]](#transcript-00-45-09-557) in the sufficiency of what our king has already won.

[\[00:45:13\]](#transcript-00-45-13-558) He's victorious.

[\[00:45:15\]](#transcript-00-45-15-559) So, what do you do with this?

[\[00:45:17\]](#transcript-00-45-17-560) Well, if you're not in a good church, you need to get into a good church because that's who you stand next to.

[\[00:45:24\]](#transcript-00-45-24-561) When he says, put on the armor of God, he didn't write it to an individual, he wrote it to a congregation.

[\[00:45:29\]](#transcript-00-45-29-562) We need each other to stand against Satan, we need each other to build one another up.

[\[00:45:33\]](#transcript-00-45-33-563) He says, consider how to build one another up to songs and hymns and spiritual songs.

[\[00:45:36\]](#transcript-00-45-36-564) The preaching of the word brings forth faith, right?

[\[00:45:38\]](#transcript-00-45-38-565) The confrontation of sin.

[\[00:45:40\]](#transcript-00-45-40-566) At times, we start allowing sin into our life.

[\[00:45:42\]](#transcript-00-45-42-567) Those of you who are spiritual to go to them and confront them, right?

[\[00:45:45\]](#transcript-00-45-45-568) We are together as the spirit empowers us, we come together and care for one another.

[\[00:45:51\]](#transcript-00-45-51-569) If you don't know how to do that or know where to find one, come into the community and let us help you.

[\[00:45:55\]](#transcript-00-45-55-570) We'll start pointing you in the right direction.

[\[00:45:56\]](#transcript-00-45-56-571) It's a great place.

[\[00:45:57\]](#transcript-00-45-57-572) We're going to, we do book studies.

[\[00:45:59\]](#transcript-00-45-59-573) We've already gone through the Bible according to Jesus.

[\[00:46:01\]](#transcript-00-46-01-574) We're about to start on Christ is enough.

[\[00:46:04\]](#transcript-00-46-04-575) It's a wonderful community.

[\[00:46:05\]](#transcript-00-46-05-576) We'd love to have you there.

[\[00:46:06\]](#transcript-00-46-06-577) If you can't afford any of this stuff, don't let that from stopping you.

[\[00:46:09\]](#transcript-00-46-09-578) Reach out, we'll give it to you.

[\[00:46:11\]](#transcript-00-46-11-579) We give away this stuff all the time, and we'd love to give it to you.

[\[00:46:14\]](#transcript-00-46-14-580) And those of you who are donating to us and supporting or buying books, when you purchase a book, that allows us to give more of those resources away.

[\[00:46:23\]](#transcript-00-46-23-581) This is a donor support in ministry.

[\[00:46:25\]](#transcript-00-46-25-582) If this message was encouraging to you and it was helpful, please like and subscribe.

[\[00:46:29\]](#transcript-00-46-29-583) Leave a comment.

[\[00:46:29\]](#transcript-00-46-29-584) Tell me your story.

[\[00:46:30\]](#transcript-00-46-30-585) I read most of them when I get a chance, or someone on the team will.

[\[00:46:34\]](#transcript-00-46-34-586) And

[\[00:46:36\]](#transcript-00-46-36-587) share it with somebody, you know, send it to them so they can be encouraged to stand firm in the faith and not in their faith, but in the finished work of Christ.

[\[00:46:45\]](#transcript-00-46-45-588) And just remembered, you're standing there because he caused you to stand by his divine power.

[\[00:46:51\]](#transcript-00-46-51-589) You didn't get yourself up there, he put you there.

[\[00:46:55\]](#transcript-00-46-55-590) And that's a good place to end.

[\[00:46:57\]](#transcript-00-46-57-591) May you find rest and peace in that.

[\[00:46:59\]](#transcript-00-46-59-592) And may you stay looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith.

[\[00:47:03\]](#transcript-00-47-03-593) And one day we will hold hands and we will sing: holy, holy is our God, and great and mighty is He to save, even me.

[\[00:47:14\]](#transcript-00-47-14-594) Me, you go in peace.

[\[00:47:17\]](#transcript-00-47-17-595) We'll see you next week.

[\[00:47:18\]](#transcript-00-47-18-596) Hey guys, real quick.

[\[00:47:19\]](#transcript-00-47-19-597) Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:47:23\]](#transcript-00-47-23-598) So, where do you go?

[\[00:47:24\]](#transcript-00-47-24-599) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources.

[\[00:47:29\]](#transcript-00-47-29-600) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources are there: past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's

[\[00:47:40\]](#transcript-00-47-40-601) there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:47:43\]](#transcript-00-47-43-602) You can go check it out.

[\[00:47:44\]](#transcript-00-47-44-603) The link is in the description below.

---

### Do You Keep His Commandments? - 1 John 2:4

*Published: May 20, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/do-you-keep-his-commandments-1-john-2-4*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/HtbnooVDagg)

Has 1 John 2:4 brought you comfort or quietly crushed your assurance? In this conversation, Jon Moffitt examines one of the most misunderstood verses in 1 John and explains what it really means to keep Christ’s commandments. Many believers read this passage as a measure of performance and walk away discouraged or fearful. You will see how John’s words were meant to bring clarity, comfort, and confidence to struggling Christians. The discussion also explains who should actually feel warned by this passage and why context matters. At the center of it all is the assurance found in Christ rather than in personal performance.

* What 1 John 2:4 really means by keeping Christ’s commandments
* Reading the verse as performance vs. as comfort for struggling Christians
* Clarity, comfort, and confidence rather than crushed assurance
* Who should feel warned by John’s words—and who should be encouraged

* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Dear Reformed, We Have A Prosperity Gospel Too!

*Published: May 13, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/dear-reformed-we-have-a-prosperity-gospel-too*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/Mz0pMe3uU1k)

What if a softer form of the prosperity gospel has been hiding in faithful churches? In this conversation, Jon Moffitt explains how believers can quietly assume that obedience should produce comfort, stability, or an easier life. When suffering comes, that expectation often leads to confusion, disappointment, and questions about God’s goodness. You will hear why this mindset resembles a subtle version of the prosperity gospel, even in conservative circles. The discussion points to a biblical understanding of suffering, faithfulness, and the Christian life. The goal is to bring relief and hope to weary believers who are asking why life feels so hard.

* A softer prosperity gospel hiding in faithful churches
* Assuming obedience should produce comfort, stability, or an easier life
* How that expectation breeds confusion when suffering comes
* A biblical understanding of God’s goodness amid trials

* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Do I Have Enough Faith? (Review of D.A. Carson)

*Published: May 6, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/do-i-have-enough-faith-review-of-d-a-carson*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/i0DmQpm34r0)

What if your faith has been pointed at the wrong object? In this conversation, Jon Moffitt addresses the confusion of placing faith in faith itself or in personal faithfulness. You will hear why the object of faith matters and how this mistake can undermine assurance. A powerful clip from D. A. Carson highlights the beauty and clarity of the gospel. The discussion centers on what it truly means for Christ to be the object of faith. The aim is to bring clarity and confidence back to the sufficiency of Christ.

* The confusion of placing faith in faith itself or in personal faithfulness
* Why the object of faith matters for assurance
* D. A. Carson on the beauty and clarity of the gospel
* Christ as the object of faith and the sufficiency of his work

* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Should YOU Critique Other Christians?

*Published: April 29, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-biblical-case-for-public-critique*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/c56qy8hjPbo)

Do you have to confront someone privately before critiquing them publicly? In this conversation, Jon Moffitt addresses a common appeal to Matthew 18 in discussions about public criticism among Christians. Examining whether this passage requires private confrontation in every situation before speaking publicly. The discussion clarifies the context of Matthew 18 and how it should be applied. Jon also considers how believers should think about online critique and accusations of sin. The goal is to bring biblical clarity to a question that comes up often.

* Whether Matthew 18 requires private confrontation before every public critique
* The context of Matthew 18 and how it should be applied
* Thinking carefully about online critique among Christians
* Accusations of sin and when public critique is fitting

* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Modern Prophecies and Healings (w/ Remnant Radio)

*Published: April 22, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/modern-prophecies-and-healings-w-remnant-radio*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/Qzf4%5FrzF1MI)

Are there still healings and prophecies today? Can Christians who disagree on spiritual gifts still have meaningful unity? In this episode, Jon Moffitt sits down with Josh Lewis, Michael Rowntree, and Michael Miller from Remnant Radio. These pastors share a commitment to Christ and the sufficiency of Scripture while holding to a continuationist view of spiritual gifts. You will hear a thoughtful discussion on prophecy, healing, and tongues, along with how they approach exposing false teachings. The conversation also highlights how believers can sharpen one another even in areas of disagreement. If you want a clear and charitable dialogue on a debated topic, this episode will encourage you.

* Whether healings and prophecies continue today
* Unity among Christians who disagree on spiritual gifts
* Continuationist views with Remnant Radio pastors under Scripture’s sufficiency
* Prophecy, healing, tongues, and exposing false teaching

* [Remnant Radio](https://www.theremnantradio.com/)
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Do Catholics Believe in Grace? (Responding to Fr. Mike Schmitz)

*Published: April 15, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/do-catholics-believe-in-grace-responding-to-fr-mike-schmitz*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/LFbZvKbTbXY)

Do Roman Catholics really believe in salvation by faith? In this episode, Jon Moffitt interacts with a video from Father Mike Schmitz on faith, works, and grace. You will see why definitions matter when it comes to salvation and how different traditions understand faith and justification. This conversation walks through key passages and historical teaching to clarify where agreements and differences exist. The goal is to help you clearly distinguish between the Protestant view of justification and what the Roman Catholic Church has traditionally taught. If you want a deeper understanding of faith, grace, and works, this episode will help.

* Father Mike Schmitz on faith, works, and grace
* Why definitions matter for salvation, faith, and justification
* Key passages and historical teaching on agreements and differences
* Distinguishing the Protestant view of justification by faith

* [James (Saved by works) Episode](https://youtu.be/wYwO94izSv0)
* [Philip Anthony Mitchell](https://youtu.be/5FnCG6NwjUo)
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Aliens or Demons? (A Biblical Response to Ruslan)

*Published: April 8, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/aliens-or-demons-a-biblical-response-to-ruslan*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/nlR0uZx5VpU)

Are aliens actually demons, and should Christians even engage this question? This conversation is not going away, and ignoring it is not helping anyone. In this episode, Jon Moffitt takes a serious look at a viral discussion and helps you sort through it with a biblical lens. You will hear why these questions are affecting real people and even shaking some in their faith. Jon brings clarity, cuts through speculation, and points you back to the sufficiency of Scripture and the hope of the gospel. If you want to think clearly about a strange cultural moment, this episode will help.

* Whether aliens are demons—and whether Christians should engage the question
* A biblical lens on a viral discussion that is shaking some in their faith
* Cutting through speculation without ignoring real pastoral concerns
* The sufficiency of Scripture and the hope of Christ

* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Is 1 John a Test for Christians? (Paul Washer Sermon Review)

*Published: April 1, 2026 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-1-john-a-test-for-christians-paul-washer-sermon-review*

Is 1 John meant to test if you are truly saved? In this episode, Jon Moffitt responds to a sermon from Paul Washer at the Shepherds Conference 2026 where 1 John is used as a test of genuine faith. Jon explains why this is a misapplication and walks through the original purpose of the letter. 1 John is meant to strengthen assurance rather than create doubt. Jon also highlights areas of agreement and offers clearer biblical paths for applying similar warnings. If you want clarity on assurance and how to read 1 John rightly, this episode is for you.

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### "I Never Knew You!" Paul Washer Sermon Review

*Published: March 25, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/i-never-knew-you-paul-washer-sermon-review*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/hX%5Fwm2QKHL4)

Who is Jesus talking to when he says, “I never knew you”? In this episode, Jon Moffitt walks through a sermon from Paul Washer at the Shepherds Conference 2026 on Matthew 7\. This passage raises serious questions about judgment, assurance, and the meaning of true faith. Jon examines the context of Jesus’ warning and evaluates how it is being interpreted and applied. You will be challenged to think carefully about who these words are for and what they mean for your confidence before God.

* Who Jesus is talking to in “I never knew you” (Matthew 7)
* Paul Washer’s Shepherds Conference sermon and how the warning is applied
* Judgment, assurance, and the meaning of true faith
* What these words mean for confidence before God

* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
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---

### “Pluck Out Your Eye?” A Review of Philip Anthony Mitchell’s Sermon

*Published: March 18, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/pluck-out-your-eye-a-review-of-philip-anthony-mitchell-s-sermon*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/5FnCG6NwjUo)

What happens when a passionate sermon still misses the gospel? Jon Moffitt reviews a sermon from Atlanta pastor Philip Anthony Mitchell. While the message is passionate and sincere, Jon explains how confusion between law and gospel can quietly rob believers of assurance. You will see why true repentance must be fueled by the gospel and not by pressure or fear. Walking through the sermon to show where the message helps and where it falls short. If you want to better understand how the gospel gives real assurance and produces true repentance, stay tuned.

* When a passionate sermon still misses the gospel
* Confusion between law and gospel that quietly robs assurance
* Why true repentance must be fueled by the gospel, not pressure or fear
* Where Philip Anthony Mitchell’s message helps—and where it falls short

* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
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---

### From Chaos to Christ - Dillon Chase’s Story

*Published: March 11, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/from-chaos-to-christ-dillon-chase-s-story*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/5Ot0dq-17yc)

In this episode, Jon Moffitt sits down with Dillon Chase for a candid conversation about pain, grace, art, and the gospel. You will hear how Dillon’s story, from childhood trauma to ministry and music, has shaped songs that bring honesty to suffering and hope to weary souls. Jon and Dillon also talk about how good theology forms faithful art, why music can serve the church, and how Christ meets you in the darkest places. If you need a conversation that is raw, thoughtful, and rooted in grace, this episode is for you.

* Dillon Chase’s story from childhood trauma to ministry and music
* How good theology shapes faithful art that serves the church
* Honesty about suffering and hope for weary souls
* Christ meeting you in the darkest places

* [Dillon Chase Music](https://www.dillonchasemusic.com/) — guest site
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
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* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Lordship Salvation: Responding to Got Questions

*Published: March 4, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/lordship-salvation-responding-to-got-questions*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/cqB5%5FGDLyRo)

Do you feel confused when people talk about Lordship Salvation? In this episode, Jon Moffitt responds to a popular Got Questions video on the topic and helps you see where clarity is needed. You are guided through what is said well, what is misleading, and where the law and the gospel often get mixed together. This conversation is not about attacking motives but about helping you understand why Lordship Salvation can create confusion for weary believers. Stay tuned for gospel clarity and discover true assurance in Christ.

* Responding to a popular Got Questions take on Lordship Salvation
* Where law and gospel often get mixed together
* Why Lordship Salvation can confuse weary believers
* Clarity without attacking motives

* [GOT QUESTIONS: Lordship Salvation Video](https://youtu.be/BiomUqv%5FSxU)
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Giants from Angels? Genesis 6 Explained

*Published: March 2, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/giants-from-angels-genesis-6-explained*
*Last modified: 2026-09-18*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/VHkBtbXIXOE)

Who are the sons of God in Genesis 6, and does it matter what you believe about the giants? The debate is getting louder, and most of us were simply taught to skip the passage. In this episode, Jon Moffitt works through the text, answers the common objections, and shows what Peter and Jude actually do with the story. You will hear why this is not a curiosity about giants but a failed rebellion against the promised seed of Genesis 3, and why two apostles reach for it to comfort believers who feel like they are losing. Jon handles a strange passage with care, holds the debate generously, and points you back to the victory of Christ. If evil feels like it is winning, this episode will help.

* Who the “sons of God” are in Genesis 6
* What Peter and Jude actually do with the story
* A failed rebellion against the promised seed of Genesis 3
* Comfort for believers who feel like they are losing

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:00\]](#transcript-00-00-00-1) The giants in Genesis 6.

[\[00:00:00\]](#transcript-00-00-00-2) Does it really matter what view you hold?

[\[00:00:02\]](#transcript-00-00-02-3) Is it a true story?

[\[00:00:05\]](#transcript-00-00-05-4) And does it matter for us as Christians today?

[\[00:00:08\]](#transcript-00-00-08-5) That's what I want to talk about.

[\[00:00:10\]](#transcript-00-00-10-6) It's probably going to be one of the longest videos I've ever done.

[\[00:00:12\]](#transcript-00-00-12-7) I've been wanting to do it for a while.

[\[00:00:14\]](#transcript-00-00-14-8) And this is why.

[\[00:00:14\]](#transcript-00-00-14-9) As a pastor, I've had to deal with this text three times now.

[\[00:00:19\]](#transcript-00-00-19-10) I preached through First Peter and Second Peter, which both mentioned this passage in Genesis 6 and the giants.

[\[00:00:24\]](#transcript-00-00-24-11) And then I just did a three-part series walking through the flood narrative in Genesis 6 because we are walking through the book of Genesis right now as a church.

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-12) So I've had to think about this passage for quite a few years now being that I preached 1 and 2 Peter and now Genesis and I've also seen that it's on the rise.

[\[00:00:44\]](#transcript-00-00-44-13) You have Wes Huff who just affirmed the angel view which I'm going to explain here in a minute with Shawn Ryan on his show.

[\[00:00:50\]](#transcript-00-00-50-14) So millions of people just heard Wes Huff from a textual standpoint using the book of Enoch and using the text itself.

[\[00:00:58\]](#transcript-00-00-58-15) Wes and I appreciate how he said this.

[\[00:01:11\]](#transcript-00-01-11-16) " And I appreciate that he's being cautious here because of the debate that is happening.

[\[00:01:16\]](#transcript-00-01-16-17) But he says I think that most of the conclusion should be that this is an angelic view and that it does produce these offspring of giants that end up when they die end up becoming these spirits that roam the earth.

[\[00:01:30\]](#transcript-00-01-30-18) You have Gavin Ortlund.

[\[00:01:32\]](#transcript-00-01-32-19) So Wes Huff is a Reformed Baptist respected known who's become extremely well known being on a lot of popular shows such as the Joe Rogan Show and Shawn Ryan and a lot of other shows and respected rightfully so for the work that he has produced as an apologist textually speaking.

[\[00:01:50\]](#transcript-00-01-50-20) Now you have Gavin Ortlund who's also become well-known and as a church historian really understanding the early church fathers argues seven reasons why he thinks that it is the angelic view and uses church history as an example.

[\[00:02:06\]](#transcript-00-02-06-21) I'm not going to use a lot of textual argumentation for like the book of Enoch or church history.

[\[00:02:13\]](#transcript-00-02-13-22) I would encourage you to go listen to Wes Huff and Gavin Ortlund for that and I'll put the links down below because those men are very well-respected Reformed Baptist in their field and I think they did a phenomenal job explaining what they mean and their view of that.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-23) I'm going to approach this from a pastoral standpoint like how should I understand this as a Christian in my everyday life?

[\[00:02:38\]](#transcript-00-02-38-24) Why?

[\[00:02:38\]](#transcript-00-02-38-25) Why does it matter?

[\[00:02:41\]](#transcript-00-02-41-26) And will it affect the way I live and the way I read?

[\[00:02:44\]](#transcript-00-02-44-27) And the answer to that is yes.

[\[00:02:46\]](#transcript-00-02-46-28) I think it will.

[\[00:02:46\]](#transcript-00-02-46-29) And so I'm going to be using a lot of the tools that I've recently written a book on called The Bible According to Jesus.

[\[00:02:52\]](#transcript-00-02-52-30) And the tools that are in this book is what we're going to be using here, comparing scripture with scripture.

[\[00:02:58\]](#transcript-00-02-58-31) Jesus is teaching us to look for him and how to understand him in all of scripture.

[\[00:03:03\]](#transcript-00-03-03-32) And then the cosmic view which is chapter five where I'm teaching you how to think about the word of God from a supernatural basically re-enchanting your Bible.

[\[00:03:11\]](#transcript-00-03-11-33) So this has been an interesting debate.

[\[00:03:13\]](#transcript-00-03-13-34) I will say this upfront before we jump into it.

[\[00:03:15\]](#transcript-00-03-15-35) If you were to read the first 400 years of church history, it's not predominantly it is dogmatically this is the view like this the writers explicitly or at least refer to the angelic view as it relates to the early church fathers.

[\[00:03:31\]](#transcript-00-03-31-36) And there's a lot of documentation on this.

[\[00:03:33\]](#transcript-00-03-33-37) You can just go Google it or you can read Doug Van Dornne's book.

[\[00:03:37\]](#transcript-00-03-37-38) There's a whole back part of his book that just shows you how many quotes from the early first f early church fathers and Gavin Ortlund was the one who really points this out and does a good job saying that Augustine is really the one who shifts the view the view that is the most predominant view today which is the Sethite view that doesn't come until Augustine and he's the one who really made that popular.

[\[00:03:58\]](#transcript-00-03-58-39) Okay, that's a little bit of the introduction.

[\[00:04:00\]](#transcript-00-04-00-40) I also want to jump into the text.

[\[00:04:01\]](#transcript-00-04-01-41) We're going to spend a little bit of time in Genesis, most of our time in First and Peter, 1 Peter, Second Peter, and Jude because the most powerful thing you can do is use the New Testament where it speaks of the Old Testament as our interpretive understanding.

[\[00:04:16\]](#transcript-00-04-16-42) And that's what we're going to do eventually.

[\[00:04:18\]](#transcript-00-04-18-43) So, let's set the stage.

[\[00:04:20\]](#transcript-00-04-20-44) Does what does the text tell us from Genesis?

[\[00:04:22\]](#transcript-00-04-22-45) And what is affirmed or clarified in the New Testament?

[\[00:04:26\]](#transcript-00-04-26-46) That's what we're going to spend our time doing this morning.

[\[00:04:30\]](#transcript-00-04-30-47) I want to point out a couple of obvious points when it comes to Genesis chapter 6 and why Moses wrote things in a certain way.

[\[00:04:39\]](#transcript-00-04-39-48) You have to realize that a lot of times when Moses is writing, he's writing to a particular people from a particular context, right?

[\[00:04:48\]](#transcript-00-04-48-49) So he's not just kind of writing for all generations, for everyone.

[\[00:04:53\]](#transcript-00-04-53-50) He's writing to the children of Israel who were just exiled out of Egypt.

[\[00:04:57\]](#transcript-00-04-57-51) They are very pagan.

[\[00:04:59\]](#transcript-00-04-59-52) They are worshiping other gods.

[\[00:05:02\]](#transcript-00-05-02-53) They are very versed in pagan mythology and so the they would know very well a lot of the references that Moses would be making and I would say that Genesis and Exodus are written well specifically Genesis is written as a polemic against polytheism like they this is the biggest thing that plagues Israel for their entire existence.

[\[00:05:26\]](#transcript-00-05-26-54) The number one command you shall have no other gods before me.

[\[00:05:28\]](#transcript-00-05-28-55) So Moses is writing in that context.

[\[00:05:30\]](#transcript-00-05-30-56) It's important for us to understand that.

[\[00:05:32\]](#transcript-00-05-32-57) And then you will notice that there is no mention of gods.

[\[00:05:37\]](#transcript-00-05-37-58) There is no mention of any of that in the first six chapters of Genesis because we're talking about the humble beginnings of the world.

[\[00:05:47\]](#transcript-00-05-47-59) And so you don't you are not introduced the concept of worshiping false gods until after the flood, which is interesting.

[\[00:05:57\]](#transcript-00-05-57-60) That's when eventually you'll start to learn about pagan worship.

[\[00:06:02\]](#transcript-00-06-02-61) And this is where you are, this is where we're going to be introduced to the concept of angels starting to interact with humanity in ways that they weren't interacting with before chapter 6.

[\[00:06:13\]](#transcript-00-06-13-62) Okay?

[\[00:06:13\]](#transcript-00-06-13-63) So, I just wanted to point that out.

[\[00:06:15\]](#transcript-00-06-15-64) Let's go ahead and read the text.

[\[00:06:17\]](#transcript-00-06-17-65) And I want to point out a couple of things.

[\[00:06:19\]](#transcript-00-06-19-66) This is Genesis chapter 6.

[\[00:06:19\]](#transcript-00-06-19-67) We're going to read through a few verses, make some observations, see if we can get enough data from Genesis 6, and then jump over into Peter and Jude.

[\[00:06:31\]](#transcript-00-06-31-68) So Genesis 6:1, when man began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive.

[\[00:06:41\]](#transcript-00-06-41-69) Now, sometimes things are just blatantly obvious and we need to pay attention to them.

[\[00:06:46\]](#transcript-00-06-46-70) Moses is explicitly say stating in the text that there were daughters born to these humans.

[\[00:06:53\]](#transcript-00-06-53-71) Why is that important?

[\[00:06:53\]](#transcript-00-06-53-72) Because they're humans.

[\[00:06:58\]](#transcript-00-06-58-73) So when man be to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them.

[\[00:07:02\]](#transcript-00-07-02-74) So we're talking about gender specific though we have females.

[\[00:07:07\]](#transcript-00-07-07-75) And then it says the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive.

[\[00:07:13\]](#transcript-00-07-13-76) So you have right here in the text a connection between two different groups of people and you we need to stop and ask ourselves who are these sons of God.

[\[00:07:26\]](#transcript-00-07-26-77) How where else has this phrase been used?

[\[00:07:28\]](#transcript-00-07-28-78) This is the first time.

[\[00:07:30\]](#transcript-00-07-30-79) So there's nowhere in this text so far if you start from Genesis 5 and go all the way through Genesis 7, you're not going to see the Seth as being a part of this conversation at all.

[\[00:07:41\]](#transcript-00-07-41-80) So when you talk about entering into this concept of, oh, these are the godly line of Seth, that's why they're called the sons of God, it it's not going to make sense from for multitude of reasons.

[\[00:07:52\]](#transcript-00-07-52-81) And so I want to go through some of these right now.

[\[00:07:54\]](#transcript-00-07-54-82) First of all, you have a contrast between daughters and sons.

[\[00:08:00\]](#transcript-00-08-00-83) And what's this whole passage about?

[\[00:08:02\]](#transcript-00-08-02-84) Well, they're producing giants.

[\[00:08:02\]](#transcript-00-08-02-85) So we'll get to that in a minute.

[\[00:08:04\]](#transcript-00-08-04-86) The question is where else in the Bible is the word sons of God used in this particular area and context.

[\[00:08:13\]](#transcript-00-08-13-87) Now we know in the New Testament we are called sons of God but that is clarified of what that means which is based upon adoption.

[\[00:08:21\]](#transcript-00-08-21-88) That's our way of receiving this title.

[\[00:08:24\]](#transcript-00-08-24-89) But in the Old Testament that is not how this word was used.

[\[00:08:28\]](#transcript-00-08-28-90) A great example of this is Job 1.

[\[00:08:40\]](#transcript-00-08-40-91) " And we know that whole narrative and this is where Satan also comes.

[\[00:08:43\]](#transcript-00-08-43-92) And so you have this gathering and what you learn is that this gathering is not on the earth.

[\[00:08:47\]](#transcript-00-08-47-93) This gathering is in heaven.

[\[00:08:48\]](#transcript-00-08-48-94) And you see very quickly that this is how this is being used.

[\[00:08:55\]](#transcript-00-08-55-95) This is the only other place that we have the idea of the sons of God being fleshed out.

[\[00:09:00\]](#transcript-00-09-00-96) Well, later on in chapter 38 when he's dialoguing with Job, he actually tells us a little bit more about the sons of God.

[\[00:09:08\]](#transcript-00-09-08-97) And he says he's he's explaining to them where were you Job when all of these things were happening.

[\[00:09:15\]](#transcript-00-09-15-98) He's talking about in this particular area, Job 38:7, he's talking about when the foundations of the earth were made.

[\[00:09:20\]](#transcript-00-09-20-99) Okay, so this is before humans were made.

[\[00:09:22\]](#transcript-00-09-22-100) This is before full creation had take place.

[\[00:09:25\]](#transcript-00-09-25-101) This is this is day one, right?

[\[00:09:27\]](#transcript-00-09-27-102) That you got the firmament being made.

[\[00:09:37\]](#transcript-00-09-37-103) " Well, this can't be the godly line of Seth because Seth does not exist.

[\[00:09:42\]](#transcript-00-09-42-104) This can't be human kings because humans do not exist.

[\[00:09:45\]](#transcript-00-09-45-105) So, the title sons of God belong to angels.

[\[00:09:48\]](#transcript-00-09-48-106) This is the morning star.

[\[00:09:53\]](#transcript-00-09-53-107) The idea of stars or angels, we know that the angels were present according to what Job is saying here, but other passages as well that these are the heavenly beings.

[\[00:10:06\]](#transcript-00-10-06-108) So, Job 2:1, Job 38:7, and Job 1:6 are the ones where they're using this idea of the sons of God.

[\[00:10:13\]](#transcript-00-10-13-109) And we learn from Job that these sons of God are angels.

[\[00:10:17\]](#transcript-00-10-17-110) And this is the context that we're given.

[\[00:10:21\]](#transcript-00-10-21-111) Now if we take that because if you have to say where else is this word sons of God used in the old testament this is where it's used and it's being told to us that these are angels.

[\[00:10:31\]](#transcript-00-10-31-112) So then we go back to Genesis and we begin to read that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive.

[\[00:10:39\]](#transcript-00-10-39-113) Well that makes sense to us now because we that's a problem in our minds.

[\[00:10:44\]](#transcript-00-10-44-114) We should be saying why are angelic beings being attracted to human beings?

[\[00:10:50\]](#transcript-00-10-50-115) That's a cross of boundaries, right?

[\[00:10:52\]](#transcript-00-10-52-116) That is there's a boundary that is to be set.

[\[00:10:56\]](#transcript-00-10-56-117) We're going to learn very quickly that Jude and Peter explicitly acknowledge the crossing of the boundary.

[\[00:11:04\]](#transcript-00-11-04-118) They went across the boundary that was set before them and that is the violation.

[\[00:11:09\]](#transcript-00-11-09-119) This is why Jude says, we'll get to this later on, that they left their proper place of authority.

[\[00:11:15\]](#transcript-00-11-15-120) Right?

[\[00:11:17\]](#transcript-00-11-17-121) So, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive and they took as their wives any they chose.

[\[00:11:21\]](#transcript-00-11-21-122) Now, why is this important in the narrative?

[\[00:11:27\]](#transcript-00-11-27-123) Well, if you understand sons of God being angels, that's a problem.

[\[00:11:31\]](#transcript-00-11-31-124) That is not nowhere in so far up the Genesis 1-6 are we told that humans are supposed to be marrying angels.

[\[00:11:39\]](#transcript-00-11-39-125) We're just that's just not in the text at all.

[\[00:11:42\]](#transcript-00-11-42-126) And so when you see here this word saw, the angels saw that the daughters of man were attractive.

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-127) It's the same word and concept of Eve.

[\[00:11:52\]](#transcript-00-11-52-128) Eve saw that the fruit was good.

[\[00:11:54\]](#transcript-00-11-54-129) In other words, something that was forbidden, she saw it and crossed the boundary and took it.

[\[00:12:01\]](#transcript-00-12-01-130) The angels saw the women, desired them, and crossed the boundary and took it.

[\[00:12:10\]](#transcript-00-12-10-131) So, this is kind of what we're seeing as the narrative being set up.

[\[00:12:14\]](#transcript-00-12-14-132) So, now sometimes what I hear is one of the arguments against this, I want to go ahead and address it now, is well, John, two problems.

[\[00:12:19\]](#transcript-00-12-19-133) One, angels don't have bodies.

[\[00:12:22\]](#transcript-00-12-22-134) And two, they Jesus explicitly said that they are not they're not capable of this.

[\[00:12:28\]](#transcript-00-12-28-135) So let's go ahead and address that now.

[\[00:12:30\]](#transcript-00-12-30-136) Even though I think Peter and Jude go they make it very clear that that's not the problem.

[\[00:12:36\]](#transcript-00-12-36-137) But let's go ahead and address that because we need to look at all of scripture and allow it to formulate our thoughts.

[\[00:12:42\]](#transcript-00-12-42-138) Well, we the idea that angels don't have bodies.

[\[00:12:46\]](#transcript-00-12-46-139) We're not given we're not told everything about the supernatural realm.

[\[00:12:50\]](#transcript-00-12-50-140) We're just not.

[\[00:12:50\]](#transcript-00-12-50-141) There's a lot that's just not explained to us how it works.

[\[00:12:54\]](#transcript-00-12-54-142) Paul's like, "Look, you wrestle against it.

[\[00:12:56\]](#transcript-00-12-56-143) How it functions, we know a little bit.

[\[00:13:06\]](#transcript-00-13-06-144) " So, you know, that's how we fight against it.

[\[00:13:09\]](#transcript-00-13-09-145) As far as how it works, we're not we're not very clear.

[\[00:13:12\]](#transcript-00-13-12-146) We do, but to say that it's angels or the spiritual realm has no physical presence, it's just not accurate to the text.

[\[00:13:18\]](#transcript-00-13-18-147) If you go to Genesis chapter 18 and read verses 1-8, what you learn there is that Abraham is engaging with two angels and he washes their feet and he feeds them.

[\[00:13:28\]](#transcript-00-13-28-148) So in some way the angels do have physicality to where their feet need to be washed.

[\[00:13:33\]](#transcript-00-13-33-149) In other words, their feet got dirty and then so they weren't hovering and flying above the ground.

[\[00:13:38\]](#transcript-00-13-38-150) And then secondly, they consumed food.

[\[00:13:40\]](#transcript-00-13-40-151) They could digest food.

[\[00:13:42\]](#transcript-00-13-42-152) And then later on in chapter 19, you see in where this is where they're in Sodom and Gomorrah and it says the two angels came to Sodom in the evening and what is it that they the men said?

[\[00:13:54\]](#transcript-00-13-54-153) The men said where are the men who came to you tonight?

[\[00:13:58\]](#transcript-00-13-58-154) So the they saw them not as figments of imaginations or ghosts or spirits.

[\[00:14:05\]](#transcript-00-14-05-155) They saw them as fleshly beings that could have intimate relationships with because they're telling Lot to bring these men that they know that are in the city to bring them out.

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-156) So it says that we may know them which is language for intimacy.

[\[00:14:23\]](#transcript-00-14-23-157) So the text very clearly appear says that they are not only touched and eating but they are being seen as being able to procreate and that's not foreign to us because Genesis chapter 6 says that it was happening.

[\[00:14:45\]](#transcript-00-14-45-158) So Genesis chapter 19 it's not that's not strange in that you have two texts now that are alluding to that.

[\[00:14:53\]](#transcript-00-14-53-159) And when you're talking about Jesus in marriage, again, we have to read things in context.

[\[00:14:57\]](#transcript-00-14-57-160) Why is Jesus talking about this?

[\[00:14:59\]](#transcript-00-14-59-161) They're trying to trip him up.

[\[00:15:00\]](#transcript-00-15-00-162) They're trying to, you know, prove that he's not the Messiah.

[\[00:15:02\]](#transcript-00-15-02-163) And you've got this lady who's had seven husbands and you know, who's her husband in heaven?

[\[00:15:07\]](#transcript-00-15-07-164) And and Jesus uses an illustration.

[\[00:15:15\]](#transcript-00-15-15-165) " So like when we are when we rise from the dead those of us who have had you know multiple spouses is he's saying there's there's not marriage in the new heavens the new earth or in heaven.

[\[00:15:25\]](#transcript-00-15-25-166) And then he says this but are like angels in heaven.

[\[00:15:27\]](#transcript-00-15-27-167) Well that doesn't say capacity.

[\[00:15:30\]](#transcript-00-15-30-168) It says that the angels right now in heaven do not do not marry.

[\[00:15:37\]](#transcript-00-15-37-169) Now think about that for a moment.

[\[00:15:40\]](#transcript-00-15-40-170) That also implies that there's a lot of similarities to humans and we never think about that in the text.

[\[00:15:45\]](#transcript-00-15-45-171) We only emphasize the non-married part.

[\[00:15:48\]](#transcript-00-15-48-172) It's like we don't become angels.

[\[00:15:50\]](#transcript-00-15-50-173) That's not what Jesus is saying.

[\[00:15:50\]](#transcript-00-15-50-174) But he is saying they're not they're alike the angels meaning that they're in the heavens.

[\[00:15:56\]](#transcript-00-15-56-175) They're they're not marrying.

[\[00:15:57\]](#transcript-00-15-57-176) This again explicitly comes to be an important phrase because Jesus is saying in heaven this is the proper way in which things will be.

[\[00:16:06\]](#transcript-00-16-06-177) This is good and right.

[\[00:16:08\]](#transcript-00-16-08-178) Jude and Peter say they crossed bounds, they left their proper place of authority and they did that which was not right.

[\[00:16:15\]](#transcript-00-16-15-179) Okay, we're going to get to that here in a minute.

[\[00:16:18\]](#transcript-00-16-18-180) So to say that Jesus say that they don't have bodies and that Jesus says that they can't do that, that's not what he says.

[\[00:16:24\]](#transcript-00-16-24-181) He says they don't do that.

[\[00:16:26\]](#transcript-00-16-26-182) There's a difference between can't and don't.

[\[00:16:28\]](#transcript-00-16-28-183) Okay?

[\[00:16:29\]](#transcript-00-16-29-184) So we need to be make sure that we read things in the context and we understand what the original intention was.

[\[00:16:37\]](#transcript-00-16-37-185) Jesus was not talking about the capacity of angels.

[\[00:16:39\]](#transcript-00-16-39-186) That's not what this text is about.

[\[00:16:45\]](#transcript-00-16-45-187) " That's not the context.

[\[00:16:47\]](#transcript-00-16-47-188) The context in that particular area, they were trying to trip Jesus up about marriage.

[\[00:16:50\]](#transcript-00-16-50-189) So, okay, this is where the next point to me is very valid and important because, you know, so what?

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-190) They had children.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-191) What's the big deal?

[\[00:17:02\]](#transcript-00-17-02-192) This the narrative.

[\[00:17:02\]](#transcript-00-17-02-193) It's like, why does this matter?

[\[00:17:04\]](#transcript-00-17-04-194) And I think my perspective on this became very strong because of how Peter used it.

[\[00:17:12\]](#transcript-00-17-12-195) And I'm going to get to that.

[\[00:17:14\]](#transcript-00-17-14-196) I keep alluding to it, but man, Peter's use of this.

[\[00:17:16\]](#transcript-00-17-16-197) He uses it to comfort and to convict.

[\[00:17:18\]](#transcript-00-17-18-198) And then Jude uses it to slam.

[\[00:17:20\]](#transcript-00-17-20-199) I mean, just absolutely obliterate false teachers.

[\[00:17:22\]](#transcript-00-17-22-200) So, it's fascinating.

[\[00:17:24\]](#transcript-00-17-24-201) But let's look at it from the narrative.

[\[00:17:29\]](#transcript-00-17-29-202) So, let's go back to chapter 6:4.

[\[00:17:31\]](#transcript-00-17-31-203) It says the Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterwards.

[\[00:17:34\]](#transcript-00-17-34-204) Now, I'm not going to get into that debate.

[\[00:17:36\]](#transcript-00-17-36-205) I think if you're thinking about when it says before or in these days means the days of prior to the flood and what comes right after this, it's it's the flood.

[\[00:17:49\]](#transcript-00-17-49-206) So, somehow you have angels that are in populating with women before the flood and it produces giants.

[\[00:17:57\]](#transcript-00-17-57-207) And then it says afterwards.

[\[00:17:59\]](#transcript-00-17-59-208) I don't know how they're there afterwards.

[\[00:18:01\]](#transcript-00-18-01-209) The text doesn't say us.

[\[00:18:02\]](#transcript-00-18-02-210) And my point is that I don't I don't think it it's necessary for you to know how they come back, but they just do.

[\[00:18:08\]](#transcript-00-18-08-211) And that's why Moses puts it in there.

[\[00:18:10\]](#transcript-00-18-10-212) And he has to put it in there because you find David and Goliath and you find all the giants and the giant tribes.

[\[00:18:15\]](#transcript-00-18-15-213) So there's there's this is important for us to pay attention.

[\[00:18:18\]](#transcript-00-18-18-214) You have angels taking wives and it says it's producing these nefall these nephilim.

[\[00:18:25\]](#transcript-00-18-25-215) Nephilim is just a transliteration of the Hebrew word.

[\[00:18:30\]](#transcript-00-18-30-216) Some trans some translations use the word giant.

[\[00:18:32\]](#transcript-00-18-32-217) If you turn over to there's several passages that talk about these giants.

[\[00:18:40\]](#transcript-00-18-40-218) So, I think it's important to stop and say if this is just godly men of Seth having children with ungodly women and it's producing, you know, they're saying big people.

[\[00:18:53\]](#transcript-00-18-53-219) Well, that would be that would just be estranged.

[\[00:18:55\]](#transcript-00-18-55-220) You know, that doesn't happen now.

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-221) There's people as there are Christians who marry on non-believers all the time.

[\[00:19:05\]](#transcript-00-19-05-222) We we're not we're not creating giants.

[\[00:19:06\]](#transcript-00-19-06-223) So, there's something more that's going on here.

[\[00:19:20\]](#transcript-00-19-20-224) " Okay, so this is important.

[\[00:19:20\]](#transcript-00-19-20-225) So it's the same word and he's saying these are the sons of Anak who come from so there's this tribe of the Anakim there's this tribe and they are Nephilim it's the same word it's the same idea the men of renown from Genesis 6 and it says you know this is you know this is the whole spy story and it says and we seem like grasshoppers in their sight you know so when they're when they're coming upon these this tribe of the Anakim that who are Nephilim.

[\[00:19:54\]](#transcript-00-19-54-226) They are giants.

[\[00:19:58\]](#transcript-00-19-58-227) They're they're huge.

[\[00:19:58\]](#transcript-00-19-58-228) Now, if you just take that particular passage, then it's like, okay, well, they're tall and you know, they're afraid, so they exaggerated a little bit.

[\[00:20:09\]](#transcript-00-20-09-229) It's not that they're just tall.

[\[00:20:12\]](#transcript-00-20-12-230) We've had tall people and even, you know, groups of people that are tall.

[\[00:20:17\]](#transcript-00-20-17-231) That's not it's not that's not what makes this particular passage such a problem.

[\[00:20:24\]](#transcript-00-20-24-232) It was the capacity of these giants that makes it so terrifying because of how powerful and big they are.

[\[00:20:33\]](#transcript-00-20-33-233) It's like supernatural power.

[\[00:20:36\]](#transcript-00-20-36-234) You know, the definition of a demigod is a half human, half god or half angelic being.

[\[00:20:43\]](#transcript-00-20-43-235) And these beings come across as if they have one, they're ginormous in size, but also in power and strength.

[\[00:20:50\]](#transcript-00-20-50-236) You have multiple passages that start talking about these tribes and how they're affecting, influencing, and attributing to issues in the in the promised land with Israel.

[\[00:21:03\]](#transcript-00-21-03-237) So this is Deuteronomy 2:10-11.

[\[00:21:10\]](#transcript-00-21-10-238) " Okay, so it keeps pointing back to the Anakim, which is what we learned about in Numbers, who were they were seen as grasshoppers.

[\[00:21:17\]](#transcript-00-21-17-239) Like the Anakim, they also counted as Rephaim.

[\[00:21:21\]](#transcript-00-21-21-240) So you have these tribes that are starting to be described and they're all related to the Nephilim.

[\[00:21:26\]](#transcript-00-21-26-241) So you have the Anakim and the Rephim and the Eim.

[\[00:21:31\]](#transcript-00-21-31-242) So these are all these are all giant tribes.

[\[00:21:33\]](#transcript-00-21-33-243) These are all the descendants of the Nephilim, which you know, how they got back here after the flood, I don't know.

[\[00:21:40\]](#transcript-00-21-40-244) But we definitely have an issue with them being here.

[\[00:21:42\]](#transcript-00-21-42-245) And then you have the description of Deuteronomy, the next chapter.

[\[00:21:46\]](#transcript-00-21-46-246) That's Jeremy 2, Jud Deuteronomy 3.

[\[00:21:47\]](#transcript-00-21-47-247) Why is it so important for Moses to remember and write down the size of one of these kings, these Nephilim kings?

[\[00:21:55\]](#transcript-00-21-55-248) Well, one, first of all, they're documenting the I mean, they were fighting these giants and they wanted to be documented.

[\[00:22:02\]](#transcript-00-22-02-249) This was a big deal.

[\[00:22:11\]](#transcript-00-22-11-250) " Okay, so now we know what a Rephaim is.

[\[00:22:12\]](#transcript-00-22-12-251) We know that Rephaim or of the descendants of the Nephilim.

[\[00:22:14\]](#transcript-00-22-14-252) So Og is a Nephilim king.

[\[00:22:17\]](#transcript-00-22-17-253) This is what this being described as.

[\[00:22:21\]](#transcript-00-22-21-254) " And why is that important?

[\[00:22:25\]](#transcript-00-22-25-255) Well, he's a big man.

[\[00:22:27\]](#transcript-00-22-27-256) How big?

[\[00:22:27\]](#transcript-00-22-27-257) Nine cubits was its length and four cubits was its breadth.

[\[00:22:30\]](#transcript-00-22-30-258) So 9 cubits is about 13 to 14 feet long.

[\[00:22:32\]](#transcript-00-22-32-259) That's how big this big this bed of iron is, which aligns with the concept of Goliath.

[\[00:22:41\]](#transcript-00-22-41-260) Goliath was a ginormous man.

[\[00:22:41\]](#transcript-00-22-41-261) So you're obviously your bed is bigger than what you are.

[\[00:22:45\]](#transcript-00-22-45-262) And so you know is anywhere from 10 to 12 feet tall.

[\[00:22:48\]](#transcript-00-22-48-263) When you go to the story of Samuel, this is where again the writers of the Old Testament keep dropping more and more data so that you could understand how like what these beings are like.

[\[00:23:03\]](#transcript-00-23-03-264) We know they're cannibalistic.

[\[00:23:04\]](#transcript-00-23-04-265) We learn this from Joshua that in the land when they're going in there, it says that they were eating the inhabitants of the land that they're violent and one that they're powerful.

[\[00:23:15\]](#transcript-00-23-15-266) So when we're reading about David and Goliath, the story about Goliath, it's not only telling you how tall he is.

[\[00:23:23\]](#transcript-00-23-23-267) He's wear anywhere from 9 to 10 feet tall, but it's not his height, it's what he's wearing and what he fights with.

[\[00:23:32\]](#transcript-00-23-32-268) You have an entire army that won't go onto the battlefield because they see this monster.

[\[00:23:35\]](#transcript-00-23-35-269) And he's not just some tall skinny basketball player, right?

[\[00:23:40\]](#transcript-00-23-40-270) Okay.

[\[00:23:40\]](#transcript-00-23-40-271) I mean, you don't you don't ever see guys that are 9 10 foot tall and they look like a monster that can look and if you read this is Sam 1st Samuel 17.

[\[00:23:53\]](#transcript-00-23-53-272) " It says this, "Whose height was six cubits in a span.

[\[00:24:02\]](#transcript-00-24-02-273) " Like, why is it important that Samuel's writing this down?

[\[00:24:06\]](#transcript-00-24-06-274) Because he's describing you just how big and monstrosity.

[\[00:24:09\]](#transcript-00-24-09-275) I mean, this guy, his 5,000 shekels is roughly 125 lbs.

[\[00:24:16\]](#transcript-00-24-16-276) Someone did the did the math and if you put it all together, it's anywhere from 800 to 900 lb of armor that Goliath had on him.

[\[00:24:27\]](#transcript-00-24-27-277) I mean, the weaver's beam, this is the his spear, and it's described as a weaver's beam.

[\[00:24:32\]](#transcript-00-24-32-278) That's like 15 to 16 pound spear.

[\[00:24:34\]](#transcript-00-24-34-279) Like there's not very many human beings in the world that can throw a spear and actually murder or kill somebody with that kind of strength.

[\[00:24:44\]](#transcript-00-24-44-280) It's it's very heavy.

[\[00:24:46\]](#transcript-00-24-46-281) So what you're being told is that this guy's not only tall, but he is a powerful I don't I don't you give me the most powerful, strongest man in the world and we put 600 lb of armor on him.

[\[00:25:00\]](#transcript-00-25-00-282) He's not going to be able to fight anybody.

[\[00:25:02\]](#transcript-00-25-02-283) What is this telling you?

[\[00:25:04\]](#transcript-00-25-04-284) He's not only tall, but there's something not human about this these beings.

[\[00:25:09\]](#transcript-00-25-09-285) And I'm not going to do the entire episode on this.

[\[00:25:12\]](#transcript-00-25-12-286) You can go and listen to my sermons.

[\[00:25:13\]](#transcript-00-25-13-287) But I think that there's a reason why God has certain tribes completely wiped out because those tribes are of the Anakim and Rephaim.

[\[00:25:25\]](#transcript-00-25-25-288) They are these beings that are not humane.

[\[00:25:29\]](#transcript-00-25-29-289) They are not of this world.

[\[00:25:31\]](#transcript-00-25-31-290) They're not of God's creation.

[\[00:25:31\]](#transcript-00-25-31-291) He calls them impure.

[\[00:25:33\]](#transcript-00-25-33-292) He calls them unclean.

[\[00:25:36\]](#transcript-00-25-36-293) And so when those that are and many of these tribes are the ones that are in the strongholds, they're in the high places of the promised land.

[\[00:25:43\]](#transcript-00-25-43-294) And so Israel has to go in and wipe them out.

[\[00:25:47\]](#transcript-00-25-47-295) And when he doesn't when like for instance when Saul doesn't do it, Samuel gets really upset at him and actually ends up killing the king right before him.

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-296) It's like you were supposed to get rid of this Nephilim king and you didn't do it.

[\[00:25:59\]](#transcript-00-25-59-297) So the reason I mention this is that the product of the sons of God and the daughters of man produces these giants.

[\[00:26:05\]](#transcript-00-26-05-298) And when you read about these giants, they are not just tall people.

[\[00:26:09\]](#transcript-00-26-09-299) They are cannibalistic violent.

[\[00:26:12\]](#transcript-00-26-12-300) And what we're going to learn is that they they're also introducing evil, just absolute evil into the world.

[\[00:26:20\]](#transcript-00-26-20-301) All right.

[\[00:26:23\]](#transcript-00-26-23-302) So how does this affect our understanding of Genesis 6?

[\[00:26:25\]](#transcript-00-26-25-303) Go back to Genesis 6 and vers 11.

[\[00:26:27\]](#transcript-00-26-27-304) So, I'm going have to keep going.

[\[00:26:29\]](#transcript-00-26-29-305) Weird.

[\[00:26:29\]](#transcript-00-26-29-306) I I realize this is going to be a long video.

[\[00:26:32\]](#transcript-00-26-32-307) All right.

[\[00:26:34\]](#transcript-00-26-34-308) Genesis 6:11.

[\[00:26:34\]](#transcript-00-26-34-309) Now, the earth was corrupt in God's sight.

[\[00:26:37\]](#transcript-00-26-37-310) And we have to ask ourselves, okay, what was corrupt?

[\[00:26:41\]](#transcript-00-26-41-311) So far in the narrative, what we have is angels coming down and now they're creating these beings called Nephilim.

[\[00:26:47\]](#transcript-00-26-47-312) And the next thing that God says is the earth is corrupt.

[\[00:26:51\]](#transcript-00-26-51-313) Is it true that it's corrupt because of what humans are doing?

[\[00:26:55\]](#transcript-00-26-55-314) Yes.

[\[00:26:55\]](#transcript-00-26-55-315) But I think in general, the whole thing is corrupt.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-316) " So we do know that would include the Nephilim, right?

[\[00:27:11\]](#transcript-00-27-11-317) So just trying to help put things into perspective.

[\[00:27:14\]](#transcript-00-27-14-318) If we're talking about Nephilim being not just humans, but this is inhumane strength and God sees this as a corruption.

[\[00:27:25\]](#transcript-00-27-25-319) Verse, if you go back to verse 9, it's interesting how Moses talks about Noah.

[\[00:27:30\]](#transcript-00-27-30-320) He says this, Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generations.

[\[00:27:34\]](#transcript-00-27-34-321) And you have is you have the documentation of gen of Noah's line in the lineage of Noah.

[\[00:27:39\]](#transcript-00-27-39-322) Why is that important to us?

[\[00:27:42\]](#transcript-00-27-42-323) Why is the lineage of Noah in Genesis given to us?

[\[00:27:44\]](#transcript-00-27-44-324) Well, because we need to know that he's human.

[\[00:27:50\]](#transcript-00-27-50-325) Call it say I'm crazy.

[\[00:27:50\]](#transcript-00-27-50-326) But this word here when it says Noah was a righteous man, which means he had faith in God.

[\[00:27:58\]](#transcript-00-27-58-327) Righteousness is not by one's actions.

[\[00:28:00\]](#transcript-00-28-00-328) We had to learn that from Genesis 3 and Paul tells us in Adam all died and in Christ all are righteous.

[\[00:28:07\]](#transcript-00-28-07-329) So he's not righteous by his actions.

[\[00:28:10\]](#transcript-00-28-10-330) He's righteous because he's a believer, a follower of God.

[\[00:28:13\]](#transcript-00-28-13-331) And then it says blameless in his generation.

[\[00:28:15\]](#transcript-00-28-15-332) That word there, blameless, is the Hebrew word tamim.

[\[00:28:19\]](#transcript-00-28-19-333) And it's the same exact word that is used in Leviticus 1:3 when talking about sacrifices that are being presented before God.

[\[00:28:27\]](#transcript-00-28-27-334) It says that a male without blemish, that this animal that is coming, it has to be to mean.

[\[00:28:32\]](#transcript-00-28-32-335) It's the same word where it says Noah was a righteous man and blameless or he was without fault or failure.

[\[00:28:39\]](#transcript-00-28-39-336) He was pure and clean in his generations.

[\[00:28:42\]](#transcript-00-28-42-337) Why would it say in his generations?

[\[00:28:45\]](#transcript-00-28-45-338) Because it means that there was not a Nephilim line.

[\[00:28:50\]](#transcript-00-28-50-339) As crazy as that sounds, there's not a Nephilim line in the generation of Noah.

[\[00:28:54\]](#transcript-00-28-54-340) And so what you're being told is it's a wild story.

[\[00:28:59\]](#transcript-00-28-59-341) Trust me, I know it's a wild story.

[\[00:29:01\]](#transcript-00-29-01-342) And I think Peter and Jude know it's a wild story.

[\[00:29:03\]](#transcript-00-29-03-343) And they use it as a wild story.

[\[00:29:05\]](#transcript-00-29-05-344) And we'll get to that.

[\[00:29:07\]](#transcript-00-29-07-345) I keep I keep alluding to it, but promise me if you stick with me and you get to Peter, it's beautiful.

[\[00:29:10\]](#transcript-00-29-10-346) So, let's back up and let's connect this to Jesus just for a second because it's important at this point that as wild as this is getting, what is being promised in Genesis chapter 3, so three chapters earlier, you have the story of the fall and it says, "From the seed of Eve will come the one who crushed the serpent's head.

[\[00:29:36\]](#transcript-00-29-36-347) What we're being told is that the victor, the one who will who restore all things, who will conquer death, who will destroy, the one who is the destroyer, is from it's a human.

[\[00:29:44\]](#transcript-00-29-44-348) It's a human.

[\[00:29:48\]](#transcript-00-29-48-349) It's a seed of Eve.

[\[00:29:48\]](#transcript-00-29-48-350) Now, that phrase would not have been lost on the ancient world because the seed does not belong to the woman.

[\[00:29:54\]](#transcript-00-29-54-351) It belongs to the man.

[\[00:29:56\]](#transcript-00-29-56-352) So, the seed of Eve is a prophecy of a virgin birth.

[\[00:29:58\]](#transcript-00-29-58-353) There will be one who comes from a woman, but it will not be of a man.

[\[00:30:02\]](#transcript-00-30-02-354) And what we learn very quickly is that the seed of the woman will crush the seed of the serpent.

[\[00:30:11\]](#transcript-00-30-11-355) I'm not going to get into this here, but a lot of types and shadows you have the seed of this fallen angel which is the Goliath and then David is in the line the lineage of Christ.

[\[00:30:26\]](#transcript-00-30-26-356) And so you have a picture of it already happening.

[\[00:30:33\]](#transcript-00-30-33-357) When does when does when David kills Goliath, cuts off his head.

[\[00:30:34\]](#transcript-00-30-34-358) And if you don't see that's a connection between David and Goliath and Genesis 3.

[\[00:30:43\]](#transcript-00-30-43-359) It's a beautiful connection.

[\[00:30:43\]](#transcript-00-30-43-360) But this is the point is that the Bible is constantly weaving these themes.

[\[00:30:46\]](#transcript-00-30-46-361) You have the you have the physical redemption of what's happening in the world.

[\[00:30:53\]](#transcript-00-30-53-362) This is Genesis 3 and the seed that is to come, the Messiah.

[\[00:30:55\]](#transcript-00-30-55-363) And then you have the spiritual war that's happening underneath.

[\[00:30:58\]](#transcript-00-30-58-364) Satan knows that his day of judgment is coming.

[\[00:31:00\]](#transcript-00-31-00-365) It's coming through a male.

[\[00:31:02\]](#transcript-00-31-02-366) It's coming through a seed.

[\[00:31:04\]](#transcript-00-31-04-367) It's coming through a person.

[\[00:31:05\]](#transcript-00-31-05-368) And in the story, as wild as it sounds, it's Genesis 6 makes it sound like the attempt is let's let's ruin the seed of humanity so there are no more humans.

[\[00:31:16\]](#transcript-00-31-16-369) Therefore, judgment can't come.

[\[00:31:18\]](#transcript-00-31-18-370) It's a wild way of thinking about that.

[\[00:31:20\]](#transcript-00-31-20-371) And you might be like, John, you're really stretching it.

[\[00:31:24\]](#transcript-00-31-24-372) But then you go read Peter and you think to yourself, that's exactly how Peter interprets it.

[\[00:31:28\]](#transcript-00-31-28-373) Quite fascinating.

[\[00:31:30\]](#transcript-00-31-30-374) So, this is what we have so far in the text.

[\[00:31:35\]](#transcript-00-31-35-375) I just we could do some more, but I think if you go back and read listen to Gavin Ortlund's article or sorry, his video, I think it'll be helpful to pick up anything where I left off.

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-376) Now, I want to get to the pastoral side of this of like why does it matter to us?

[\[00:31:52\]](#transcript-00-31-52-377) Why why should we think about it in the in these ways?

[\[00:31:54\]](#transcript-00-31-54-378) And the way in which I titled this in my sermon series is called a failed rebellion.

[\[00:32:01\]](#transcript-00-32-01-379) And I think that's exactly how Peter and Jude use it.

[\[00:32:03\]](#transcript-00-32-03-380) They use this failed rebellion because it is God cleanses the earth, right?

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-381) So there is a petration.

[\[00:32:13\]](#transcript-00-32-13-382) They they come and they corrupt the world.

[\[00:32:18\]](#transcript-00-32-18-383) They corrupt the line of the Messiah.

[\[00:32:22\]](#transcript-00-32-22-384) And God comes and he purifies it.

[\[00:32:26\]](#transcript-00-32-26-385) And he and you'll notice even in the Old Testament, I didn't mention this now, but how many stories there are about David who keeps hunting down these g these giants and killing the tribes and the giants, you know, and it says that he takes five stones.

[\[00:32:41\]](#transcript-00-32-41-386) He took five stones.

[\[00:32:43\]](#transcript-00-32-43-387) One related for Goliath and his and his brothers.

[\[00:32:46\]](#transcript-00-32-46-388) So, you can see that they're always hunting them down because of what they are according to the to the narrative.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-389) All right, let's get to the pastoral side of this.

[\[00:32:57\]](#transcript-00-32-57-390) Let's start in 1 Peter chapter or 1 Peter chapter 3.

[\[00:33:00\]](#transcript-00-33-00-391) And it's important that you understand what's going on in the first few chapters and why Peter is writing this letter.

[\[00:33:14\]](#transcript-00-33-14-392) So what we have is Peter is writing to suffering believers that are scattered across Asia Minor and they have been marginalized.

[\[00:33:24\]](#transcript-00-33-24-393) They are being persecuted for their faith.

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-394) They've had to leave the out they had to leave Rome and live on the outskirts and they are realizing like we've we've dedicated our lives to God and yet it feels like we're losing and they're very discouraged.

[\[00:33:38\]](#transcript-00-33-38-395) So Peter is writing to encourage them of who they are in Christ and what they've received.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-396) You know, he starts out by God's divine power has granted to you everything that pertains to life and godliness like you should be encouraged by this.

[\[00:33:51\]](#transcript-00-33-51-397) And yet suffering is normal because you are fighting in the spiritual war.

[\[00:33:58\]](#transcript-00-33-58-398) And so Peter doesn't go towards the physical nature of the war.

[\[00:34:04\]](#transcript-00-34-04-399) He does something quite fascinating.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-400) He reminds them of the spiritual nature of the war and to encourage them in this fight that they have and that they are being ostracized and marginalized and they're experiencing suffering not only in a physical sense because they've had to leave their homes and now they live on the outskirts of town but they're being persecuted for their faith.

[\[00:34:25\]](#transcript-00-34-25-401) This is what he says to them.

[\[00:34:25\]](#transcript-00-34-25-402) So let's look at 1 Peter chapter 3 18 and following.

[\[00:34:30\]](#transcript-00-34-30-403) For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison.

[\[00:34:42\]](#transcript-00-34-42-404) Okay, so to comfort the believer, I'm just trying to set this up so when I read this, we can all catch this.

[\[00:34:50\]](#transcript-00-34-50-405) To comfort the believer, he starts again with Christ's death and resurrection.

[\[00:34:56\]](#transcript-00-34-56-406) But then he points to something like very fascinating verse 19 it says in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formally did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah.

[\[00:35:17\]](#transcript-00-35-17-407) Okay, now we have context.

[\[00:35:19\]](#transcript-00-35-19-408) Who are these spirits?

[\[00:35:19\]](#transcript-00-35-19-409) Are these spirits of humans?

[\[00:35:22\]](#transcript-00-35-22-410) Are these the spirits of angels?

[\[00:35:24\]](#transcript-00-35-24-411) Like who are they?

[\[00:35:28\]](#transcript-00-35-28-412) Well, first of all, it says they did not obey.

[\[00:35:30\]](#transcript-00-35-30-413) Well, we learn from second Peter and Jude very quickly that we'll see this in a minute.

[\[00:35:34\]](#transcript-00-35-34-414) These are angels.

[\[00:35:36\]](#transcript-00-35-36-415) He's talking about angels.

[\[00:35:38\]](#transcript-00-35-38-416) And what was the obeying?

[\[00:35:38\]](#transcript-00-35-38-417) Well, Peter and Jude in the second letters tell us that they left their proper place of authority.

[\[00:35:45\]](#transcript-00-35-45-418) This is very much what I was talking about earlier that Jesus says in heaven in their proper place of authority where they're supposed to be, they're not supposed to be marrying.

[\[00:35:54\]](#transcript-00-35-54-419) And it says here that they did not obey.

[\[00:35:58\]](#transcript-00-35-58-420) Okay, so let's read it in context again.

[\[00:36:01\]](#transcript-00-36-01-421) So which now and this is the part that I think is so fascinating.

[\[00:36:06\]](#transcript-00-36-06-422) And I'll come back to it in a sec.

[\[00:36:08\]](#transcript-00-36-08-423) Let's read the rest of the text.

[\[00:36:10\]](#transcript-00-36-10-424) When God's patients waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared in which a few that is eight persons were brought safely through the waters.

[\[00:36:16\]](#transcript-00-36-16-425) So the context is very is clearly talking about Genesis 6 and what happened there.

[\[00:36:21\]](#transcript-00-36-21-426) Baptism which corresponds to this now saves you not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[\[00:36:31\]](#transcript-00-36-31-427) So this whole thing is about spiritual nature of our faith and the victory of Christ.

[\[00:36:36\]](#transcript-00-36-36-428) And the flood is an example of Christ's cleansing us.

[\[00:36:38\]](#transcript-00-36-38-429) He's he preserved Noah.

[\[00:36:40\]](#transcript-00-36-40-430) He will preserve you.

[\[00:36:40\]](#transcript-00-36-40-431) And then he says this who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of the father with angels, authorities and powers having been subjected to him.

[\[00:36:49\]](#transcript-00-36-49-432) Why is that important for Peter to say?

[\[00:36:51\]](#transcript-00-36-51-433) Well, in context, they don't feel like they're winning.

[\[00:36:57\]](#transcript-00-36-57-434) It feels like the pagan supernatural, the gods of Rome are winning.

[\[00:37:04\]](#transcript-00-37-04-435) They are not feeling powerful.

[\[00:37:04\]](#transcript-00-37-04-436) They're feeling forgotten.

[\[00:37:08\]](#transcript-00-37-08-437) They don't feel like they're winning at all.

[\[00:37:10\]](#transcript-00-37-10-438) They're discouraged.

[\[00:37:11\]](#transcript-00-37-11-439) And so, what does Peter do?

[\[00:37:14\]](#transcript-00-37-14-440) He reminds them of what happened in the past and it will happen again.

[\[00:37:19\]](#transcript-00-37-19-441) And what's the reality?

[\[00:37:19\]](#transcript-00-37-19-442) And so let's go back and read this.

[\[00:37:32\]](#transcript-00-37-32-443) " Proclaimed what?

[\[00:37:32\]](#transcript-00-37-32-444) What did Jesus proclaim?

[\[00:37:35\]](#transcript-00-37-35-445) His victory.

[\[00:37:35\]](#transcript-00-37-35-446) Because if it he was made alive in the spirit, it means that they lost.

[\[00:37:41\]](#transcript-00-37-41-447) So when Christ died, this is called the descent into Hades or the descent into hell.

[\[00:37:48\]](#transcript-00-37-48-448) It's in our creeds.

[\[00:37:49\]](#transcript-00-37-49-449) There's a lot of I've done a whole sermon on it.

[\[00:37:52\]](#transcript-00-37-52-450) I'll put a link in here about the descent into hell.

[\[00:37:56\]](#transcript-00-37-56-451) I've preached a whole series on this.

[\[00:37:58\]](#transcript-00-37-58-452) It's wonderful.

[\[00:37:58\]](#transcript-00-37-58-453) But what this is saying in church history affirms, this is what the church understood is that Jesus is going down and proclaiming victory over those who attempted to stop his coming.

[\[00:38:12\]](#transcript-00-38-12-454) Why else is he mentioning in the days of Noah these spirits?

[\[00:38:18\]](#transcript-00-38-18-455) Because Genesis 3, the Messiah will come as a man.

[\[00:38:22\]](#transcript-00-38-22-456) Genesis 6, let's corrupt humanity.

[\[00:38:25\]](#transcript-00-38-25-457) Well, what we learn here is that those angels that did this were all gathered up and they were thrown according to Peter and Jude.

[\[00:38:32\]](#transcript-00-38-32-458) They were thrown into prison.

[\[00:38:34\]](#transcript-00-38-34-459) They were thrown.

[\[00:38:35\]](#transcript-00-38-35-460) This right here.

[\[00:38:35\]](#transcript-00-38-35-461) So when it says Jesus Christ died and when he died when his spirit descended into the lower regions of the earth which is a whole another explanation but for our sake here in which he went and proclaimed what proclaimed victory.

[\[00:38:49\]](#transcript-00-38-49-462) It was a victory lap.

[\[00:38:51\]](#transcript-00-38-51-463) He's not preaching so that the dead humans could believe again.

[\[00:38:53\]](#transcript-00-38-53-464) No, it says which he proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formerly did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah.

[\[00:39:03\]](#transcript-00-39-03-465) Right?

[\[00:39:03\]](#transcript-00-39-03-466) And the reason why I hold this position is because this isn't the only place that it's talked about.

[\[00:39:11\]](#transcript-00-39-11-467) So I want to go ahead and jump into second Peter because we gain more clarity as relates to second Peter because in this particular passage in chapter one first Peter he's comforting the believer.

[\[00:39:23\]](#transcript-00-39-23-468) Now I want you to hear me out.

[\[00:39:26\]](#transcript-00-39-26-469) He's using the flood and these angels who tried to stop Jesus from coming.

[\[00:39:31\]](#transcript-00-39-31-470) He's Peter as a pastor is saying you remember that story.

[\[00:39:37\]](#transcript-00-39-37-471) Now this happens a lot.

[\[00:39:37\]](#transcript-00-39-37-472) Paul a lot of the apostles will assume knowledge like you know your Old Testament and so they will just make references to things about the Sabbath or about the Exodus or about you know when the rock was struck in the wilderness and you know Paul says when the walk the rock was struck and water came out of it the water was Christ.

[\[00:39:58\]](#transcript-00-39-58-473) Like the rock was Christ.

[\[00:40:00\]](#transcript-00-40-00-474) Well, you just have to know about that story.

[\[00:40:02\]](#transcript-00-40-02-475) And all he says is rock struck water.

[\[00:40:04\]](#transcript-00-40-04-476) That's it.

[\[00:40:04\]](#transcript-00-40-04-477) Doesn't give you any other context.

[\[00:40:06\]](#transcript-00-40-06-478) So, they just assume you know what story he's talking about.

[\[00:40:09\]](#transcript-00-40-09-479) Peter is assuming you know what story he's talking about.

[\[00:40:11\]](#transcript-00-40-11-480) Why is it important you understand it that it's the spirits of the angels?

[\[00:40:14\]](#transcript-00-40-14-481) Because they were trying to stop the salvation of humanity and stop judgment.

[\[00:40:19\]](#transcript-00-40-19-482) Two things happening here.

[\[00:40:23\]](#transcript-00-40-23-483) Salvation of humanity and the judgment of those who have rebelled.

[\[00:40:30\]](#transcript-00-40-30-484) It feels like to the early church that th those who rebel, they win.

[\[00:40:35\]](#transcript-00-40-35-485) They're getting away with it.

[\[00:40:38\]](#transcript-00-40-38-486) They they there's no they do whatever they want and we're over here suffering.

[\[00:40:44\]](#transcript-00-40-44-487) And Peter is saying, remember that moment when the angels did this?

[\[00:40:48\]](#transcript-00-40-48-488) God gathered him up.

[\[00:40:51\]](#transcript-00-40-51-489) He put him in gloomy darkness.

[\[00:40:59\]](#transcript-00-40-59-490) " Chapter two, he gets more explicit.

[\[00:41:20\]](#transcript-00-41-20-491) " So he proclaimed victory and then everything was put under his authority.

[\[00:41:24\]](#transcript-00-41-24-492) There's nothing outside the authority of God.

[\[00:41:26\]](#transcript-00-41-26-493) Church be comforted.

[\[00:41:28\]](#transcript-00-41-28-494) This is this is the tone of Peter.

[\[00:41:30\]](#transcript-00-41-30-495) The second letter is different.

[\[00:41:33\]](#transcript-00-41-33-496) Now he's dealing with false teachers and how the false teachers seem to be getting away with it as well and they can just kind of do whatever they want.

[\[00:41:39\]](#transcript-00-41-39-497) There's no consequences.

[\[00:41:40\]](#transcript-00-41-40-498) So turn with me to second Peter chapter 2 and look at verse one.

[\[00:41:47\]](#transcript-00-41-47-499) " Well, there you go.

[\[00:41:47\]](#transcript-00-41-47-500) So that's the context.

[\[00:41:49\]](#transcript-00-41-49-501) Also arose among the people, just as there were false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

[\[00:42:01\]](#transcript-00-42-01-502) Well, how do we know it's going to bring upon them swift destruction?

[\[00:42:04\]](#transcript-00-42-04-503) Well, let's keep reading.

[\[00:42:04\]](#transcript-00-42-04-504) And many will follow their sensuality.

[\[00:42:06\]](#transcript-00-42-06-505) So, now we're dealing with areas of sensuality.

[\[00:42:10\]](#transcript-00-42-10-506) That's interesting key context because what stories is going to use stories of sensuality.

[\[00:42:17\]](#transcript-00-42-17-507) And because of them, the way of truth will be blaspheing, and in their greed, they will exploit you with false words.

[\[00:42:23\]](#transcript-00-42-23-508) Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

[\[00:42:29\]](#transcript-00-42-29-509) Okay, this is key.

[\[00:42:32\]](#transcript-00-42-32-510) He's saying their condemnation is on their way.

[\[00:42:35\]](#transcript-00-42-35-511) So, just to think that they may not doesn't look like they're going to be condemned, but they are.

[\[00:42:40\]](#transcript-00-42-40-512) And in this, this is actually a quote from Enoch.

[\[00:42:42\]](#transcript-00-42-42-513) We'll get to this here in a minute.

[\[00:42:44\]](#transcript-00-42-44-514) Now verse four, four and five key verses.

[\[00:42:47\]](#transcript-00-42-47-515) For let me give you some illustration guys.

[\[00:42:51\]](#transcript-00-42-51-516) Let me remind you of a powerful story of old of where this took place.

[\[00:42:54\]](#transcript-00-42-54-517) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment.

[\[00:43:04\]](#transcript-00-43-04-518) Well, that sounds like first Peter.

[\[00:43:06\]](#transcript-00-43-06-519) The first time he wrote it, he called them spirits where he proclaimed victory.

[\[00:43:09\]](#transcript-00-43-09-520) This time he calls them angels.

[\[00:43:12\]](#transcript-00-43-12-521) So explicitly and it says they sinned and he cast them into hell waiting for judgment.

[\[00:43:19\]](#transcript-00-43-19-522) Well, where do we know a story about angels sinning?

[\[00:43:24\]](#transcript-00-43-24-523) He tells you next verse, if he did not spare the ancient world but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness with seven others when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly.

[\[00:43:37\]](#transcript-00-43-37-524) So right there in the narrative, he's telling you he's following it down.

[\[00:43:42\]](#transcript-00-43-42-525) And what did the angels what was their sin?

[\[00:43:47\]](#transcript-00-43-47-526) Sensuality.

[\[00:43:47\]](#transcript-00-43-47-527) Look at verse six.

[\[00:43:50\]](#transcript-00-43-50-528) But if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes, he condemned them to extinction making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly, making them an example.

[\[00:44:01\]](#transcript-00-44-01-529) Okay.

[\[00:44:01\]](#transcript-00-44-01-530) Keep reading.

[\[00:44:04\]](#transcript-00-44-04-531) If he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked.

[\[00:44:08\]](#transcript-00-44-08-532) Again, dealing with the context here.

[\[00:44:10\]](#transcript-00-44-10-533) For as the for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep them unright, keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.

[\[00:44:28\]](#transcript-00-44-28-534) Two times Peter is comforting the church with Genesis chapter 6 and not just the general story where he's putting to judgment these wicked humans who become really bad.

[\[00:44:44\]](#transcript-00-44-44-535) He doesn't say that.

[\[00:44:44\]](#transcript-00-44-44-536) It's important to understand it's not that he's pointing to the flood and he's saying see God brought condemnation upon the wicked.

[\[00:44:53\]](#transcript-00-44-53-537) He he's twice talks about it being the angels and it's specifically the angels who sin during the time of Noah.

[\[00:45:03\]](#transcript-00-45-03-538) What well what do we know from the sons of God in the context?

[\[00:45:06\]](#transcript-00-45-06-539) That's that's those who created this hybrid being right.

[\[00:45:11\]](#transcript-00-45-11-540) So you start connecting it all and you're realizing you have Peter twice.

[\[00:45:15\]](#transcript-00-45-15-541) He finds it significant enough to use that story twice and it is spiritual warfare.

[\[00:45:20\]](#transcript-00-45-20-542) You've got the realm of the angelic spiritual realm collapsing into the physical realm and creating all kinds of sin and havoc, sensuality, and it's an attempt at stopping the Messiah.

[\[00:45:35\]](#transcript-00-45-35-543) And Peter is saying they were judged, they will be judged, and judgment will come upon those who are doing it to you now.

[\[00:45:42\]](#transcript-00-45-42-544) He's like, if he judged the angels, he's going to judge these people.

[\[00:45:45\]](#transcript-00-45-45-545) Just remain faithful.

[\[00:45:45\]](#transcript-00-45-45-546) Keep focusing on the gospel.

[\[00:45:47\]](#transcript-00-45-47-547) Keep focusing on Christ.

[\[00:45:50\]](#transcript-00-45-50-548) So you have two separate letters where Peter is using Genesis 6, I think explicitly the angelic view as a means of comfort and warning.

[\[00:46:03\]](#transcript-00-46-03-549) So when someone says to me, while you guys are focusing on stuck weird passages, well, someone needs to tell Peter that because Peter twice uses this to explain and comfort the church.

[\[00:46:20\]](#transcript-00-46-20-550) So, I mean, could you imagine this is how Peter did it?

[\[00:46:35\]](#transcript-00-46-35-551) " That's that's what Peter's doing.

[\[00:46:38\]](#transcript-00-46-38-552) These poor Christians twice, two different letters, they're in Asia Minor suffering because of the persecution that's going on in Rome.

[\[00:46:47\]](#transcript-00-46-47-553) Then you get to Jude.

[\[00:46:47\]](#transcript-00-46-47-554) Jude is probably the nail in the coffin.

[\[00:46:49\]](#transcript-00-46-49-555) I mean, this is the one that just kind of finalizes it all because he's he uses language that is so explicit that Jude also is reading.

[\[00:46:57\]](#transcript-00-46-57-556) So you could say, well, maybe Peter's just reading it that way.

[\[00:47:01\]](#transcript-00-47-01-557) Well, Jude's reading it this way, too.

[\[00:47:02\]](#transcript-00-47-02-558) So you got not just wildeyed Peter.

[\[00:47:05\]](#transcript-00-47-05-559) Jude reads it this way.

[\[00:47:05\]](#transcript-00-47-05-560) So Jude, you got verses five and following.

[\[00:47:09\]](#transcript-00-47-09-561) It says, 'Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus who saved a people out of the land of Egypt a Egypt afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

[\[00:47:19\]](#transcript-00-47-19-562) And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment day.

[\[00:47:33\]](#transcript-00-47-33-563) Okay, so now we have the same thing that Peter says.

[\[00:47:35\]](#transcript-00-47-35-564) We have angels who did not stay within their own position of authority but left their proper dwelling.

[\[00:47:43\]](#transcript-00-47-43-565) Well, where is a story that we know of that?

[\[00:47:44\]](#transcript-00-47-44-566) It's definitely Genesis chapter 6.

[\[00:47:47\]](#transcript-00-47-47-567) And what is it that they did?

[\[00:47:50\]](#transcript-00-47-50-568) Well, you got to read verse 7.

[\[00:47:52\]](#transcript-00-47-52-569) Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal f of eternal fire.

[\[00:48:06\]](#transcript-00-48-06-570) Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[\[00:48:09\]](#transcript-00-48-09-571) Just as So he's saying the angels did not stay within their own position of authority just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise, twice, he says it now, indulged in sexual immorality.

[\[00:48:22\]](#transcript-00-48-22-572) So their dude is comparing what the angels did leaving their proper place of authority with Sodom and Gomorrah.

[\[00:48:31\]](#transcript-00-48-31-573) And which is interesting about that particular story is that you have angels involved in Sodom and Gomorrah as well.

[\[00:48:35\]](#transcript-00-48-35-574) So that should not be lost on us.

[\[00:48:38\]](#transcript-00-48-38-575) Verse eight, yet in like manner these people also relying on their dreams defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.

[\[00:48:48\]](#transcript-00-48-48-576) So it what we have here is a third confirmation of the angels in the context of Noah and it being sensuality being the what is being condemned.

[\[00:49:00\]](#transcript-00-49-00-577) That's that's the flow.

[\[00:49:03\]](#transcript-00-49-03-578) So you there's nowhere at all you could you cannot read Peter and Jude and come away with the Sethite view.

[\[00:49:10\]](#transcript-00-49-10-579) You just can't do it.

[\[00:49:10\]](#transcript-00-49-10-580) And I'm trying to I'm not trying to be rude.

[\[00:49:12\]](#transcript-00-49-12-581) Is just not there cuz you're dealing with explicitly twice he calls them angels and then in the first one he calls them spirits but in the context you learn that the spirits are angels.

[\[00:49:24\]](#transcript-00-49-24-582) Why?

[\[00:49:24\]](#transcript-00-49-24-583) Because it's the same story.

[\[00:49:26\]](#transcript-00-49-26-584) It's the story of Noah.

[\[00:49:28\]](#transcript-00-49-28-585) They're being chained in gloomy darkness.

[\[00:49:29\]](#transcript-00-49-29-586) It's you and Jude says it the same way.

[\[00:49:32\]](#transcript-00-49-32-587) Well, how is it that they're using this similar language?

[\[00:49:33\]](#transcript-00-49-33-588) And so there later on if you go and read in Jude let me scroll down here in Jude chapter for 14 but Jude 14 and 15 you are dealing now with what's going to happen to all of these rebellious sensual false teachers those who are leading people astray.

[\[00:50:00\]](#transcript-00-50-00-589) Like what is what's going to happen with them?

[\[00:50:02\]](#transcript-00-50-02-590) They're causing so much pain and havoc.

[\[00:50:03\]](#transcript-00-50-03-591) Jude 14 it says it was also about these that Enoch the seventh of Adam prophesied saying behold the Lord comes with 10,000 of his holy ones to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way and all of the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

[\[00:50:30\]](#transcript-00-50-30-592) All right.

[\[00:50:30\]](#transcript-00-50-30-593) Now, you can't find that quote in the Old Testament.

[\[00:50:33\]](#transcript-00-50-33-594) It's not there.

[\[00:50:35\]](#transcript-00-50-35-595) He's quoting Enoch.

[\[00:50:35\]](#transcript-00-50-35-596) Now, this is the particular passage that Wes Huff was talking about.

[\[00:50:43\]](#transcript-00-50-43-597) He was kind of talking about the credentials and where it came from and what it's like.

[\[00:50:48\]](#transcript-00-50-48-598) I'll let Wes Huff explain that.

[\[00:50:48\]](#transcript-00-50-48-599) What you have here is this is not a nor is unusual for Paul to Paul does this.

[\[00:50:56\]](#transcript-00-50-56-600) Paul will quote, you know, philosophers and just because he quotes them doesn't mean that particular passage is now considered to be scripture or that book or that author is now infallible.

[\[00:51:07\]](#transcript-00-51-07-601) They can pull a quote and use that quote as an example and as an illustration.

[\[00:51:12\]](#transcript-00-51-12-602) Well, what Judah is doing is pull pulling a well-known book that these that these readers would have known of.

[\[00:51:21\]](#transcript-00-51-21-603) He doesn't have to explain the book of Enoch and he doesn't explain the quote.

[\[00:51:24\]](#transcript-00-51-24-604) They would have known it.

[\[00:51:26\]](#transcript-00-51-26-605) This was a common language.

[\[00:51:28\]](#transcript-00-51-28-606) You know, it would be for us as Christians, it'd be like quoting a section from the Chronicles of Narnia or CS Lewis or something like that.

[\[00:51:36\]](#transcript-00-51-36-607) But specifically Enoch, the book of Enoch was this particular section that he's quoting from.

[\[00:51:43\]](#transcript-00-51-43-608) So if you go to the book of Enoch and you read it, he is quoting Enoch first Enoch 1:9.

[\[00:51:46\]](#transcript-00-51-46-609) And what you're what you hear, I mean, this is the quote.

[\[00:51:53\]](#transcript-00-51-53-610) But behold, he comes with 10,000 of his holy ones to execute judgment upon all and destroy all the I mean, it's it's a quote.

[\[00:51:58\]](#transcript-00-51-58-611) He's quoting verbatim.

[\[00:52:01\]](#transcript-00-52-01-612) Why does this matter?

[\[00:52:03\]](#transcript-00-52-03-613) Well, if you stop and say, is it just a general quote?

[\[00:52:10\]](#transcript-00-52-10-614) It's kind of like a, oh yeah, this is an example.

[\[00:52:15\]](#transcript-00-52-15-615) For this entire section, angels, sexuality, when you go and read Enoch 1:9, what you realize is that is right smack dab in the middle of the story of Genesis 6 and the watchers and the fallen angels is what they're called, the watchers.

[\[00:52:30\]](#transcript-00-52-30-616) Daniel uses this word watchers.

[\[00:52:32\]](#transcript-00-52-32-617) And so Enoch when it's describing, again, Enoch is not scripture.

[\[00:52:37\]](#transcript-00-52-37-618) I'm not saying all of my argument is landing on Enoch not whatsoever.

[\[00:52:41\]](#transcript-00-52-41-619) Could stop this video right now and you have all the evidence that you need.

[\[00:52:45\]](#transcript-00-52-45-620) But this is just icing on the cake.

[\[00:52:47\]](#transcript-00-52-47-621) Throw a couple candles.

[\[00:52:47\]](#transcript-00-52-47-622) What you have right smack dab in the middle of chapter 9 is from chapter 6 to chapter 16.

[\[00:52:54\]](#transcript-00-52-54-623) Here's the narrative.

[\[00:52:54\]](#transcript-00-52-54-624) The rebellion of the angels, which sounds very similar if you just go and read it to that of Genesis 6.

[\[00:53:02\]](#transcript-00-53-02-625) This is their then it talks about their union with women, their birth of the giants, their corruption of humanity and the imprisonment of the chains in into judgment.

[\[00:53:12\]](#transcript-00-53-12-626) This is what all and then you have chapter nine.

[\[00:53:15\]](#transcript-00-53-15-627) And so he said what Enoch is writing about is that those angels who did this and the ungodly who participated in it, these ungodly humans that agreed and participated, there's judgment coming for them.

[\[00:53:28\]](#transcript-00-53-28-628) So this is important to us because it's just affirming the view that's there.

[\[00:53:35\]](#transcript-00-53-35-629) Jude is quoting from Enoch from the section that is quoting about this entire story of Genesis.

[\[00:53:40\]](#transcript-00-53-40-630) And when you go back and read some of these passages that are in Enoch, it's pretty wild.

[\[00:53:44\]](#transcript-00-53-44-631) Where you they it sounds like Peter like Peter clearly is writing understanding and using the same kind of language.

[\[00:53:56\]](#transcript-00-53-56-632) This is Enoch one 1 Enoch 15.

[\[00:53:58\]](#transcript-00-53-58-633) It says, "Where have you left the high, holy, and eternal heaven?

[\[00:54:05\]](#transcript-00-54-05-634) " So what does Peter say?

[\[00:54:07\]](#transcript-00-54-07-635) They left their proper place of authority.

[\[00:54:09\]](#transcript-00-54-09-636) Jude says they left their proper place of authority.

[\[00:54:12\]](#transcript-00-54-12-637) You were spiritually holy, living in the eternal life, but you have defiled yourself by the blood of women, and the spirits of the giants shall be called evil spirits upon the earth.

[\[00:54:20\]](#transcript-00-54-20-638) So this is coming from the book of Enoch in that section that Jude is quoting from and you have there's a section of Enoch that talks about the angels being thrown into like they're gathered up.

[\[00:54:38\]](#transcript-00-54-38-639) He sends Michael to go gather up the angels and to chain them up.

[\[00:54:41\]](#transcript-00-54-41-640) It's the same language that Peter is using.

[\[00:54:44\]](#transcript-00-54-44-641) So you can do some research on that if you want.

[\[00:54:47\]](#transcript-00-54-47-642) There's a lot of great books that are out there that kind of show the correlation between Enoch and Peter and Jude.

[\[00:54:52\]](#transcript-00-54-52-643) I'm not going to spend time doing that.

[\[00:54:54\]](#transcript-00-54-54-644) I don't think it makes my argument more strong if I think you could leave Enoch out of completely, but I do just find it fascinating that the New Testament writers are using well-known Jewish traditional understandings and they use them as examples of their interpretation of Genesis chapter 6.

[\[00:55:10\]](#transcript-00-55-10-645) All of that to say, well then how should we think about this as Christians?

[\[00:55:16\]](#transcript-00-55-16-646) Well, what is it doing?

[\[00:55:16\]](#transcript-00-55-16-647) This is a wild story.

[\[00:55:19\]](#transcript-00-55-19-648) Angels creating giants.

[\[00:55:23\]](#transcript-00-55-23-649) Well, the whole Old Testament is dealing with giants.

[\[00:55:25\]](#transcript-00-55-25-650) I mean, they're everywhere in the Old Testament.

[\[00:55:26\]](#transcript-00-55-26-651) They're in the promised land.

[\[00:55:28\]](#transcript-00-55-28-652) They're dealing with they're killing giants who are kings.

[\[00:55:32\]](#transcript-00-55-32-653) Og and you've got David and Goliath.

[\[00:55:34\]](#transcript-00-55-34-654) I mean, it's a whole part of the narrative.

[\[00:55:36\]](#transcript-00-55-36-655) But what you're But we're not we're always reading it as like physical.

[\[00:55:40\]](#transcript-00-55-40-656) Peter used it as spiritual.

[\[00:55:40\]](#transcript-00-55-40-657) Jude used it as a spiritual thing and so does Paul.

[\[00:55:49\]](#transcript-00-55-49-658) " Like, Israel was establishing the nation to bring the Messiah.

[\[00:55:53\]](#transcript-00-55-53-659) The Messiah has come.

[\[00:55:53\]](#transcript-00-55-53-660) That part's over.

[\[00:55:56\]](#transcript-00-55-56-661) They lost that part.

[\[00:56:00\]](#transcript-00-56-00-662) " when it says that in Colossians that he transfers us out of the kingdom of darkness and what does it say?

[\[00:56:07\]](#transcript-00-56-07-663) He puts the principalities powers to open shame.

[\[00:56:09\]](#transcript-00-56-09-664) Why?

[\[00:56:09\]](#transcript-00-56-09-665) Why does he put him to open shame?

[\[00:56:12\]](#transcript-00-56-12-666) Well, because they're the one that crucified him.

[\[00:56:14\]](#transcript-00-56-14-667) And in crucifying him, they actually accomplished our redemption.

[\[00:56:18\]](#transcript-00-56-18-668) And it's it's on them.

[\[00:56:20\]](#transcript-00-56-20-669) Paul says in Corinthians that they that God withheld his plan because if they would have known about the plan, they wouldn't have crucified him.

[\[00:56:28\]](#transcript-00-56-28-670) So they're they in their victory of we killed them.

[\[00:56:32\]](#transcript-00-56-32-671) Like this is the Chronicles of Narnia, that beautiful scene where they're all celebrating because Aslan is dead and then he comes running out on the field and they're like, "What?

[\[00:56:42\]](#transcript-00-56-42-672) " This is Jesus putting them to shame on the battlefield saying you lost.

[\[00:56:45\]](#transcript-00-56-45-673) And Peter is using it.

[\[00:56:47\]](#transcript-00-56-47-674) So church, for those of us that feel as if, man, evil is rising and it's winning and it feels like the wicked succeed.

[\[00:56:55\]](#transcript-00-56-55-675) You know, this is Psalm 73 that the the wicked are fat and the righteous are are hungry and we're going without and it seems like they have easy life and we suffer.

[\[00:57:04\]](#transcript-00-57-04-676) Peter is saying you got to look past the physical here and realize this is a spiritual war and what you're fighting is the same thing that my brother Paul has been talking about.

[\[00:57:16\]](#transcript-00-57-16-677) I mean later on in Peter he says Satan is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

[\[00:57:22\]](#transcript-00-57-22-678) He's prowling about and in this he's dealing with the mind.

[\[00:57:26\]](#transcript-00-57-26-679) He says, "Be sober minded.

[\[00:57:27\]](#transcript-00-57-27-680) " Why?

[\[00:57:27\]](#transcript-00-57-27-681) Because the truth of Christ resting in our heart, the principalities, the the spiritual realm wants to intoxicate our minds.

[\[00:57:37\]](#transcript-00-57-37-682) It wants to fill it with lies.

[\[00:57:37\]](#transcript-00-57-37-683) It wants us discouraged.

[\[00:57:39\]](#transcript-00-57-39-684) It wants us hurting.

[\[00:57:41\]](#transcript-00-57-41-685) And Peter is using these illustrations of actual spiritual warfare happening.

[\[00:57:48\]](#transcript-00-57-48-686) These angels that are using different means.

[\[00:57:51\]](#transcript-00-57-51-687) They tried using corrupting the line.

[\[00:57:54\]](#transcript-00-57-54-688) Later on, you see them trying to murder all the children.

[\[00:57:56\]](#transcript-00-57-56-689) They find out that Jesus is a is a baby.

[\[00:57:59\]](#transcript-00-57-59-690) So, let's murder all of the children.

[\[00:58:01\]](#transcript-00-58-01-691) You can keep seeing it.

[\[00:58:02\]](#transcript-00-58-02-692) Jesus is pulled out into the wilderness and tempted by Satan.

[\[00:58:06\]](#transcript-00-58-06-693) Now, that they that they lost that they lost it over Jesus.

[\[00:58:09\]](#transcript-00-58-09-694) And now what do they do?

[\[00:58:11\]](#transcript-00-58-11-695) Paul says they're coming after the church now.

[\[00:58:12\]](#transcript-00-58-12-696) They lost the war with Jesus.

[\[00:58:14\]](#transcript-00-58-14-697) The Messiah has come and now they know he's coming back.

[\[00:58:16\]](#transcript-00-58-16-698) So, what do we do?

[\[00:58:18\]](#transcript-00-58-18-699) Let's just get them not talking about Jesus.

[\[00:58:20\]](#transcript-00-58-20-700) Let's not let's let's slow this thing down.

[\[00:58:22\]](#transcript-00-58-22-701) Maybe we can I even possibly think that Satan thinks he can turn humanity against God.

[\[00:58:28\]](#transcript-00-58-28-702) So, what does he do?

[\[00:58:30\]](#transcript-00-58-30-703) He goes after the church.

[\[00:58:31\]](#transcript-00-58-31-704) This is James.

[\[00:58:33\]](#transcript-00-58-33-705) It's fascinating how James uses this.

[\[00:58:42\]](#transcript-00-58-42-706) " Like, we just have no concept of that.

[\[00:58:43\]](#transcript-00-58-43-707) Like what the writers of the New Testament, they had an enchanted worldview of evil and wickedness coming upon the church.

[\[00:58:50\]](#transcript-00-58-50-708) You know, test the spirits to see if they're among you.

[\[00:58:54\]](#transcript-00-58-54-709) Paul literally says that you have angels of light.

[\[00:58:56\]](#transcript-00-58-56-710) Those you have people teaching in the church appear as people, but they're actually they're actually angels that are that are of angels of light.

[\[00:59:05\]](#transcript-00-59-05-711) They're of Satan.

[\[00:59:08\]](#transcript-00-59-08-712) I mean, it's wild.

[\[00:59:08\]](#transcript-00-59-08-713) You got Hebrews 4 or Hebrews talking about angels being among you.

[\[00:59:14\]](#transcript-00-59-14-714) You don't even know it.

[\[00:59:15\]](#transcript-00-59-15-715) Like they just lived in a different perspective than we do.

[\[00:59:17\]](#transcript-00-59-17-716) And the reason why this is important is that they trusted that the church needed to believe in the supernatural means to fight against this.

[\[00:59:29\]](#transcript-00-59-29-717) So what is they emphasizing?

[\[00:59:32\]](#transcript-00-59-32-718) They're emphasizing the gather church so that we can be preaching and teaching and praying and singing and fellowshipping and receiving of the Lord's table and baptism because those are the spiritual weapons of our warfare.

[\[00:59:42\]](#transcript-00-59-42-719) What does Paul literally say?

[\[00:59:42\]](#transcript-00-59-42-720) The weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but of the divine power to tear down strongholds.

[\[00:59:47\]](#transcript-00-59-47-721) And what are those strongholds?

[\[00:59:49\]](#transcript-00-59-49-722) He talks about lies that are cast about.

[\[00:59:51\]](#transcript-00-59-51-723) So we live in a world that is bombarding us with lies from Satan on every level from TV to phones to internet to everywhere.

[\[01:00:00\]](#transcript-01-00-00-724) It's everywhere.

[\[01:00:02\]](#transcript-01-00-02-725) And this is why we have to be sober minded, filling our hearts and our minds with the supernatural power of the gospel, Christ for you.

[\[01:00:08\]](#transcript-01-00-08-726) Right?

[\[01:00:08\]](#transcript-01-00-08-727) Peter again in second Peter where he's dealing with the descent of Christ and all of this, what does he say in his opening of the letter?

[\[01:00:19\]](#transcript-01-00-19-728) He says that everything that you need for life has already been given to you.

[\[01:00:24\]](#transcript-01-00-24-729) Like don't try and go earn your salvation or your reward.

[\[01:00:26\]](#transcript-01-00-26-730) Everything for life and godliness has been given to you by divine power and is kept by Christ in heaven for you.

[\[01:00:31\]](#transcript-01-00-31-731) So add to your faith what these weapons of our warfare.

[\[01:00:34\]](#transcript-01-00-34-732) The fruit like the fruit of the spirit coming out of us is what encourages others and draws as Peter says be ready to give an answer of the hope that lies within you.

[\[01:00:45\]](#transcript-01-00-45-733) Right?

[\[01:00:45\]](#transcript-01-00-45-734) But then he says this in second Peter 1:9.

[\[01:00:49\]](#transcript-01-00-49-735) And he says, "But if these but if these things are not true about you and they're not increasing," he doesn't question their salvation.

[\[01:00:56\]](#transcript-01-00-56-736) This is important.

[\[01:00:59\]](#transcript-01-00-59-737) He doesn't question their salvation.

[\[01:01:03\]](#transcript-01-01-03-738) " Like you forgot you are not a part of this wicked evil kingdom of darkness.

[\[01:01:11\]](#transcript-01-01-11-739) You were brought out of that.

[\[01:01:13\]](#transcript-01-01-13-740) You forgot that.

[\[01:01:13\]](#transcript-01-01-13-741) You need to remember that if you're not producing virtue and kindness and mercy and gentleness and meekness, if you're not producing these things, you you've forgotten you've been cleansed.

[\[01:01:25\]](#transcript-01-01-25-742) You forgot who you were.

[\[01:01:26\]](#transcript-01-01-26-743) Church, this is why preaching all of scripture and not removing the weirdness and allowing those stories to come to the surface and inform us actually changes and gives us hope.

[\[01:01:40\]](#transcript-01-01-40-744) When we see that evil is winning, man, it feels like it's winning, right?

[\[01:01:42\]](#transcript-01-01-42-745) There's it feels like the world's in chaos.

[\[01:01:45\]](#transcript-01-01-45-746) The Epstein files and alien this and this, you know, it's like evil and babies being murdered and it's all kinds of crazy stuff happening.

[\[01:01:52\]](#transcript-01-01-52-747) Peter and Paul and Jude, they're really giving you an introduction into the matrix.

[\[01:02:02\]](#transcript-01-02-02-748) They're giving you this is a red pill moment, right?

[\[01:02:06\]](#transcript-01-02-06-749) Where they're opening your mind and saying there's more going on.

[\[01:02:09\]](#transcript-01-02-09-750) And the only way in which you are going to be aware of that is to look into past look past the physical realm into the spiritual realm and trust that Christ is winning.

[\[01:02:22\]](#transcript-01-02-22-751) Like whatever you see feels like losing, let me remind you he proclaimed victory.

[\[01:02:28\]](#transcript-01-02-28-752) Let me remind you that he put them to open chain.

[\[01:02:32\]](#transcript-01-02-32-753) Let me remind you he rose from the grave.

[\[01:02:34\]](#transcript-01-02-34-754) Let me remind you that those who tried to stop, God has already gathered up those angels.

[\[01:02:39\]](#transcript-01-02-39-755) Now there are other ones who are doing work.

[\[01:02:40\]](#transcript-01-02-40-756) There are there are those who do causing havoc.

[\[01:02:43\]](#transcript-01-02-43-757) But if he if he took care of them, he will take care of the these.

[\[01:02:45\]](#transcript-01-02-45-758) What are we supposed to be doing?

[\[01:02:48\]](#transcript-01-02-48-759) We're not demon hunters, right?

[\[01:02:49\]](#transcript-01-02-49-760) We have been called to care, comfort, and go and reach the lost.

[\[01:02:54\]](#transcript-01-02-54-761) We are to focus in on Christ, laying aside the weight and the sin that easily besets us and focus our eyes on Jesus Christ.

[\[01:02:59\]](#transcript-01-02-59-762) So I don't we shouldn't be ashamed or afraid of Genesis 6.

[\[01:03:04\]](#transcript-01-03-04-763) We should welcome it because it is a great comfort us that as crazy as it is.

[\[01:03:09\]](#transcript-01-03-09-764) I mean, there's so much evidence for the flood.

[\[01:03:13\]](#transcript-01-03-13-765) It's wild.

[\[01:03:13\]](#transcript-01-03-13-766) There's evidence for giants.

[\[01:03:16\]](#transcript-01-03-16-767) I mean, it's wild.

[\[01:03:16\]](#transcript-01-03-16-768) What's coming to be like what people are finding these days and evil is on the rise.

[\[01:03:24\]](#transcript-01-03-24-769) And we could use Peter and Jude to comfort us and Paul to instruct us on how to fight.

[\[01:03:29\]](#transcript-01-03-29-770) We stand in the strength of the Lord.

[\[01:03:31\]](#transcript-01-03-31-771) We put on the armor of God.

[\[01:03:32\]](#transcript-01-03-32-772) We realize that unless we do that, we will be taken out and not in a way in which oh like we'll be demonpossessed but our heart and our mind will be swayed.

[\[01:03:42\]](#transcript-01-03-42-773) We'll become ineffective and unfruitful in the kingdom.

[\[01:03:45\]](#transcript-01-03-45-774) So to be effective and fruitful to love and care for others and to find hope and joy in the midst of darkness, we reenchant our faith.

[\[01:03:53\]](#transcript-01-03-53-775) We open up the Bible.

[\[01:03:55\]](#transcript-01-03-55-776) We allow the wild stories to be true because it's the wild stories that are used to comfort our hearts.

[\[01:03:59\]](#transcript-01-03-59-777) So, if that was encouraging to you, I talk more about that this book, chapter 5, not specifically this.

[\[01:04:06\]](#transcript-01-04-06-778) I get more into how to read the Bible from an enchanted worldview, specifically from Jesus, how he teaches us to do that.

[\[01:04:15\]](#transcript-01-04-15-779) Org or, on Amazon.

[\[01:04:17\]](#transcript-01-04-17-780) So, hopefully this is encouraging to you.

[\[01:04:19\]](#transcript-01-04-19-781) And, if you want to hear me preach a more like full explanation of that, my three-part series, and I'll put even the the Peter sermon.

[\[01:04:28\]](#transcript-01-04-28-782) So, there's like five, six sermons that I'll put in the show notes below.

[\[01:04:32\]](#transcript-01-04-32-783) You can go and listen to those.

[\[01:04:32\]](#transcript-01-04-32-784) Couple books that I would recommend that I found helpful.

[\[01:04:36\]](#transcript-01-04-36-785) Doug Van Dorne's book on the Giants was very helpful.

[\[01:04:38\]](#transcript-01-04-38-786) If you want to go read that, I'll put the show notes there.

[\[01:04:42\]](#transcript-01-04-42-787) Doug and I have done a couple of podcasts on this.

[\[01:04:43\]](#transcript-01-04-43-788) If you go to the Reformed Fringe, there's several episodes that we've done specifically on this.

[\[01:04:48\]](#transcript-01-04-48-789) We did one on how the early church actually altered the Bible, altered the text to remove the supernatural view of Genesis 6 and Deuteronomy 32.

[\[01:04:57\]](#transcript-01-04-57-790) So you can go listen to that episode as well.

[\[01:04:59\]](#transcript-01-04-59-791) So at the end of the day, no matter what position that you take, whether it's the Sethite view or the angelic view, the one thing you do have to agree is Peter and Jude and Paul want to open our eyes to the spiritual realm and comfort us.

[\[01:05:12\]](#transcript-01-05-12-792) The wicked will be judged.

[\[01:05:14\]](#transcript-01-05-14-793) The righteous will be saved.

[\[01:05:17\]](#transcript-01-05-17-794) And we believe this by faith.

[\[01:05:20\]](#transcript-01-05-20-795) No matter what position you take, that is the application from Jude and Peter.

[\[01:05:24\]](#transcript-01-05-24-796) All right.

[\[01:05:24\]](#transcript-01-05-24-797) Thank you for listening.

[\[01:05:25\]](#transcript-01-05-25-798) If this was helpful, please like and subscribe and share this with someone.

[\[01:05:29\]](#transcript-01-05-29-799) That's just an easy way to help get more people.

[\[01:05:31\]](#transcript-01-05-31-800) At the end of the day, I would love to grab as many people that are thinking about Genesis 6 and get them to Christ.

[\[01:05:37\]](#transcript-01-05-37-801) So, yes, giants and crazy, but at the end of the day, let's get them to Jesus.

[\[01:05:42\]](#transcript-01-05-42-802) And that's the point of this episode.

[\[01:05:44\]](#transcript-01-05-44-803) So thanks for listening.

---

### Where Real Spiritual Experience Is Found (w/ Reformed Pastor Clips)

*Published: February 25, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/where-real-spiritual-experience-is-found-w-reformed-pastor-clips*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/BzLTIY-B4v0)

What if your morning changed because you remembered where you are right now in Christ? You are not just forgiven, you are united to the risen Jesus and, in Him, your life is already secure and hopeful. In this episode, Jon Moffitt is joined by Daniel, also known as reformedpastorclips, to unpack union with Christ and why it is the heart of the gospel. You will hear how this doctrine reshapes assurance, sanctification, and even the pull toward Rome or Eastern Orthodoxy by offering real transcendence without trading Christ for rituals. If reading the Bible feels confusing or heavy, this conversation helps you see Scripture as a guide that leads you to Jesus and fills your joy.

* Union with Christ as the heart of the gospel
* How this doctrine reshapes assurance and sanctification
* Real transcendence without turning to Rome or Eastern Orthodoxy
* Conversation with Daniel (reformedpastorclips)

* [Reformed Pastor Clips](https://linktr.ee/reformedpastorclips) — Daniel's links
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Does the Bible Require Head Coverings? (w/ Doug Van Dorn)

*Published: February 18, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/does-the-bible-require-head-coverings-w-doug-van-dorn*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/9RRIcWrzjbg)

Should women wear head coverings in church, or is something else going on in 1 Corinthians 11? This passage has puzzled believers for years and is gaining new attention in both conservative and Reformed churches. In this episode, Jon is joined by Doug Van Dorn to explore how this text should be read and understood. You will see why context, culture, and authorial intent matter when interpreting difficult passages of Scripture. Rather than focusing on surface-level conclusions, this conversation equips you to read the Bible more carefully.

* Reading 1 Corinthians 11 on head coverings carefully
* Why context, culture, and authorial intent matter
* Moving past surface-level conclusions on a contested text
* Conversation with Doug Van Dorn

* [Doug Van Dorn](https://www.douglasvandorn.com/) — guest site
* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### What Does “Examine Yourself” Actually Mean?

*Published: February 11, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-does-examine-yourself-actually-mean*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/2XfpduQdbOI)

Do verses about self-examination leave you anxious or afraid about your salvation? You may have heard preaching encouraging you to “examine yourself,” in other words, measure your faith by your fruit. In this episode, Jon Moffitt walks through these well known texts in their proper context. You will see what the authors actually intended and why that matters so much. Instead of fear or self-doubt, this discussion aims to bring you comfort in Christ. If these passages have haunted you, this episode is meant to set you free.

* Self-examination texts that leave believers anxious about salvation
* What the authors actually intended in context
* Fruit-measuring versus comfort in Christ
* Relief for passages that have haunted weary Christians

* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### The Bible's Emphasis Isn't Obedience

*Published: February 4, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-bibles-emphasis-isnt-obedience*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/Kufm5sLTfLE)

Many Christians assume the Bible's main focus is on what you must do. Obedience matters, but Jon challenges you to consider what Scripture actually emphasizes. Is it primarily a rulebook, or is it pointing you to something deeper? In this episode, discover the true heartbeat of the Bible and the hope it holds for you. This could shift your whole perspective.

* Whether Scripture’s main focus is what you must do
* Obedience that matters without treating the Bible as a rulebook
* The true heartbeat of the Bible and the hope it holds

* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://theocast.org/pages/join)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Why Christians Struggle to Read the Bible

*Published: January 28, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-christians-struggle-to-read-the-bible*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/AqxTXLk8b3Y)

Have you ever felt like reading the Bible is difficult? Many Christians love Jesus but quietly struggle to read His Word. Not because of laziness, but because they don’t understand it. What should be a source of joy and strength often feels like a weight dragging you down. In this episode, Jon Moffitt helps you rediscover the Bible as a gift meant to lead you to Christ, not crush you with confusion or guilt. Come find clarity and relief in the Word that was always meant to be good news.

* Why many who love Jesus still find Bible reading hard
* Confusion and guilt that turn the Word into a weight
* Rediscovering Scripture as a gift that leads to Christ

* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:01\]](#transcript-00-00-01-1) One of the most ironic things about modern Christianity is that people say they love Jesus, but yet they struggle to read his word.

[\[00:00:08\]](#transcript-00-00-08-2) And it's not because of a lack of dedication or discipline.

[\[00:00:12\]](#transcript-00-00-12-3) What I find is that most people struggle to read the Bible because they don't understand it, and what they do understand just discourages them.

[\[00:00:20\]](#transcript-00-00-20-4) That which is supposed to build their faith becomes a brick that drowns them.

[\[00:00:24\]](#transcript-00-00-24-5) They feel a weight that constantly just pulls them under.

[\[00:00:28\]](#transcript-00-00-28-6) And today in the episode, I want to talk about how that has happened and why that's happened and find some relief and understand how it is that we can go to God's Word and receive from it what it

[\[00:00:39\]](#transcript-00-00-39-7) was designed to be, which is a guide and a joy to Jesus Christ.

[\[00:00:44\]](#transcript-00-00-44-8) Before we jump into the episode, as we do every week, let's take a moment and be refreshed by looking to Christ.

[\[00:00:50\]](#transcript-00-00-50-9) Many Christians struggle to read their Bible, and the struggle often brings more guilt than help.

[\[00:00:55\]](#transcript-00-00-55-10) We open the pages and fear we will feel nothing.

[\[00:01:00\]](#transcript-00-01-00-11) We worry that our inconsistencies reveal something broken in us.

[\[00:01:05\]](#transcript-00-01-05-12) Slowly, scripture starts to feel like another place we are failing.

[\[00:01:10\]](#transcript-00-01-10-13) Jesus does not measure your faith by your reading streak.

[\[00:01:14\]](#transcript-00-01-14-14) He is not waiting for discipline before offering grace.

[\[00:01:18\]](#transcript-00-01-18-15) He is the word made flesh who came near to the weary and the distracted.

[\[00:01:24\]](#transcript-00-01-24-16) Your hope is not found in how well you read the Bible, but in the one the Bible reveals.

[\[00:01:31\]](#transcript-00-01-31-17) When scripture feels dry, look to Christ.

[\[00:01:35\]](#transcript-00-01-35-18) When your mind wanders, stop and remember Christ.

[\[00:01:39\]](#transcript-00-01-39-19) Even when all you can manage is a single verse, he is still giving himself to you.

[\[00:01:46\]](#transcript-00-01-46-20) The Bible is not a ladder you climb to reach God, it is a window that shows you the God who has already come to you in Christ.

[\[00:01:57\]](#transcript-00-01-57-21) Most Christians that I meet, they're not reading their Bibles because they're not interested in it or in Jesus.

[\[00:02:02\]](#transcript-00-02-02-22) It's frustrating, it's confusing.

[\[00:02:04\]](#transcript-00-02-04-23) We often get lost.

[\[00:02:05\]](#transcript-00-02-05-24) I myself have felt that for many years.

[\[00:02:07\]](#transcript-00-02-07-25) The Bible, according to Jesus, was written to help people understand the point of the Bible, which we're not hiding.

[\[00:02:14\]](#transcript-00-02-14-26) It's about Jesus: how to understand the Old Testament law and the covenants and the promises and the prophecies.

[\[00:02:19\]](#transcript-00-02-19-27) Hopefully this is helpful for you and will encourage you to read your Bible more.

[\[00:02:23\]](#transcript-00-02-23-28) You can pre-order it today at theocast.org.

[\[00:02:39\]](#transcript-00-02-39-29) Welcome to Theocast.

[\[00:02:41\]](#transcript-00-02-41-30) I'm your host, Jon Moffitt, the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:02:45\]](#transcript-00-02-45-31) And if you'd like to learn more about Theocast, you can go to theocast.org.

[\[00:02:49\]](#transcript-00-02-49-32) We've got books, articles, all kinds of stuff, including a community there.

[\[00:02:53\]](#transcript-00-02-53-33) And excited to be in that community and so many great people from around the world.

[\[00:02:58\]](#transcript-00-02-58-34) You can go learn more about that at theocast.org.

[\[00:03:02\]](#transcript-00-03-02-35) Discussing books, articles, and your questions.

[\[00:03:05\]](#transcript-00-03-05-36) So it's good to see you there.

[\[00:03:06\]](#transcript-00-03-06-37) Okay, this is take two for me.

[\[00:03:08\]](#transcript-00-03-08-38) I was 20 minutes into this episode.

[\[00:03:10\]](#transcript-00-03-10-39) I looked over and realized I wasn't recording, so I'm convinced it was the greatest podcast I ever recorded and only me and the Lord will know how it went.

[\[00:03:24\]](#transcript-00-03-24-40) So maybe I can fix some of my mistakes on this particular episode.

[\[00:03:29\]](#transcript-00-03-29-41) All right, so I wrote a book recently and I wanted to do an episode not about the book necessarily like the content, but why I wrote it and how passionate I am about About the the contents of it.

[\[00:03:45\]](#transcript-00-03-45-42) I started just going through Genesis with my church earlier this year, or late last year.

[\[00:03:50\]](#transcript-00-03-50-43) But before jumping into that book, which has, there's so many things going on in Genesis, like so many complications.

[\[00:03:56\]](#transcript-00-03-56-44) I thought it would be good to go and give.

[\[00:03:58\]](#transcript-00-03-58-45) I have so many new believers, young Christians.

[\[00:04:02\]](#transcript-00-04-02-46) I have children.

[\[00:04:03\]](#transcript-00-04-03-47) I have a 21, 19, 17, a 10-year-old.

[\[00:04:05\]](#transcript-00-04-05-48) Like, I just want them to know the Bible and how to understand it and not be ignorant of it so that they aren't to and fro.

[\[00:04:12\]](#transcript-00-04-12-49) And they understand how the Word of God can tear down strongholds and how it becomes a comfort and a guide, and how it is.

[\[00:04:18\]](#transcript-00-04-18-50) The power of the gospel is for them, and it can guide and direct them.

[\[00:04:21\]](#transcript-00-04-21-51) And the law is wonderful, and grace and mercy is glorious.

[\[00:04:25\]](#transcript-00-04-25-52) Like, I want all of that for them.

[\[00:04:27\]](#transcript-00-04-27-53) And I think that Genesis just pulls back so much beauty when it comes to that.

[\[00:04:32\]](#transcript-00-04-32-54) So, what we did is we did a series on the Emmaus Road.

[\[00:04:37\]](#transcript-00-04-37-55) We called it the Emmaus Way of how to read the Bible.

[\[00:04:40\]](#transcript-00-04-40-56) And that's where this book comes from, which is the Bible according to Jesus.

[\[00:04:44\]](#transcript-00-04-44-57) And, um, I know the struggles that I've had with reading God's Word throughout my journey as a Christian.

[\[00:04:53\]](#transcript-00-04-53-58) I grew up in a pastor's home.

[\[00:04:55\]](#transcript-00-04-55-59) My dad was a Baptist pastor.

[\[00:04:58\]](#transcript-00-04-58-60) And the man loved his Bible, loved Jesus.

[\[00:05:00\]](#transcript-00-05-00-61) My mom, still to this day, my mom has two radio programs.

[\[00:05:05\]](#transcript-00-05-05-62) Shout out to mom, two radio programs in Utah.

[\[00:05:09\]](#transcript-00-05-09-63) If you haven't checked those out, you should.

[\[00:05:11\]](#transcript-00-05-11-64) They're amazing.

[\[00:05:12\]](#transcript-00-05-12-65) Her name is Diana Carroll, and we'll put the links down in the description here.

[\[00:05:16\]](#transcript-00-05-16-66) So, shout out there.

[\[00:05:17\]](#transcript-00-05-17-67) But my mom still loves the Bible and

[\[00:05:20\]](#transcript-00-05-20-68) has gone on this wonderful excursion with me of going from Independent Baptist to Reformed.

[\[00:05:27\]](#transcript-00-05-27-69) And we loved every minute of it.

[\[00:05:31\]](#transcript-00-05-31-70) But I have a lot of people that are growing up in church, in my church, that are not Reformed.

[\[00:05:37\]](#transcript-00-05-37-71) I have a lot of teenagers in our youth group that I have the joy of teaching.

[\[00:05:41\]](#transcript-00-05-41-72) Speaking of, shout out to Gavin.

[\[00:05:44\]](#transcript-00-05-44-73) I told him I'd give him a shout out.

[\[00:05:46\]](#transcript-00-05-46-74) Love Gavin.

[\[00:05:47\]](#transcript-00-05-47-75) You know who you are, and a huge fan of Theocass.

[\[00:05:50\]](#transcript-00-05-50-76) He's always encouraging me.

[\[00:05:52\]](#transcript-00-05-52-77) So I told him I'd give him a shout out as well.

[\[00:05:57\]](#transcript-00-05-57-78) So one of the things that I wanted to do was kind of talk about the common reasons of why people don't read their Bible, and it'll really help shape the reason behind why I wrote this book.

[\[00:06:08\]](#transcript-00-06-08-79) And it's 10 years of podcasting has helped me to clarify my thoughts where I get to preach, I get to teach, I get to shepherd a disciple in my own church.

[\[00:06:18\]](#transcript-00-06-18-80) And then I've been able to engage with people around the world outside of my context.

[\[00:06:21\]](#transcript-00-06-21-81) So I know, I know what's going on here in Spring Hill, but being able to engage with people in all other, all these different countries and different states.

[\[00:06:31\]](#transcript-00-06-31-82) And at the end of the day, I wanted to be able to provide a tool that could be used as a discipleship mechanism where you can really sit down and show people that the Bible is designed to lead

[\[00:06:41\]](#transcript-00-06-41-83) you to rest.

[\[00:06:43\]](#transcript-00-06-43-84) Like it's an amazing book.

[\[00:06:46\]](#transcript-00-06-46-85) And the fact that we don't engage it most of the time is because we don't understand it primarily.

[\[00:06:53\]](#transcript-00-06-53-86) Or we've been

[\[00:06:55\]](#transcript-00-06-55-87) taught to read it wrong, like in the wrong way, and that creates frustration.

[\[00:07:02\]](#transcript-00-07-02-88) And that frustration then leads to, like, well, then I don't engage it.

[\[00:07:05\]](#transcript-00-07-05-89) So, this, um, this article, I found several articles, one by Barna, the Barna group, and then there was Christianity Today, there was Lifeway.

[\[00:07:15\]](#transcript-00-07-15-90) There were several that I found, but they're all kind of saying the same thing.

[\[00:07:19\]](#transcript-00-07-19-91) So, I'm going to end up just doing an article from Center for Biblical Engagement.

[\[00:07:23\]](#transcript-00-07-23-92) I felt like they kind of summarized it well.

[\[00:07:26\]](#transcript-00-07-26-93) And they kind of broke it down into some categories.

[\[00:07:28\]](#transcript-00-07-28-94) And so, I wanted to walk through these categories of why people don't read their Bibles and then help explain how this book came to be for my life, my church, my family.

[\[00:07:36\]](#transcript-00-07-36-95) And then hopefully it's an encouragement to you.

[\[00:07:39\]](#transcript-00-07-39-96) I would say it's a summary of 10 years of theology when it comes to theocast of all the topics that we love to talk about from law, gospel distinction, third use of the law, the power of God's grace,

[\[00:07:52\]](#transcript-00-07-52-97) sanctification, salvation,

[\[00:07:55\]](#transcript-00-07-55-98) you know, and then even the supernatural nature of our faith.

[\[00:07:58\]](#transcript-00-07-58-99) So, all of that is what's in the book.

[\[00:08:01\]](#transcript-00-08-01-100) So, here's what the article says: kind of the common, I would say, modern reasons why people don't read their Bibles.

[\[00:08:10\]](#transcript-00-08-10-101) And I'm going to check real quick.

[\[00:08:11\]](#transcript-00-08-11-102) Yeah, I'm recording.

[\[00:08:11\]](#transcript-00-08-11-103) We're good.

[\[00:08:13\]](#transcript-00-08-13-104) I have that fear-like, I can't do that mistake again.

[\[00:08:16\]](#transcript-00-08-16-105) All right, so this is under the heading of hindrances.

[\[00:08:20\]](#transcript-00-08-20-106) It says practical and habit barriers.

[\[00:08:22\]](#transcript-00-08-22-107) So, being too busy or having a hectic schedule, which look,

[\[00:08:30\]](#transcript-00-08-30-108) I understand this.

[\[00:08:31\]](#transcript-00-08-31-109) You know, this whole section is like not making it a priority in your schedule, feeling distracted and overwhelmed.

[\[00:08:37\]](#transcript-00-08-37-110) This is true.

[\[00:08:38\]](#transcript-00-08-38-111) And when you see the Bible, it's not something like if you're

[\[00:08:46\]](#transcript-00-08-46-112) more confusing and condemning than it is helpful and supernatural, then

[\[00:08:54\]](#transcript-00-08-54-113) I can understand how this is like making time to do something that is not going to be beneficial.

[\[00:08:59\]](#transcript-00-08-59-114) Like you want it to be beneficial, but you're not convinced that it is.

[\[00:09:03\]](#transcript-00-09-03-115) That's why you don't make the time for it.

[\[00:09:05\]](#transcript-00-09-05-116) And I look, I'm here to show you some sympathy.

[\[00:09:10\]](#transcript-00-09-10-117) I grew up this way.

[\[00:09:11\]](#transcript-00-09-11-118) Like, the reason why I read my Bible when I was in high school was not because I thought it was beneficial.

[\[00:09:18\]](#transcript-00-09-18-119) I know some of you are shocked.

[\[00:09:19\]](#transcript-00-09-19-120) Like, how can you say that?

[\[00:09:21\]](#transcript-00-09-21-121) look, let's just be honest with each other.

[\[00:09:22\]](#transcript-00-09-22-122) Let's stop pretending.

[\[00:09:23\]](#transcript-00-09-23-123) Let's stop playing.

[\[00:09:27\]](#transcript-00-09-27-124) There's nothing more refreshing than being with somebody who is real, right?

[\[00:09:33\]](#transcript-00-09-33-125) And so let's just be real with one another.

[\[00:09:34\]](#transcript-00-09-34-126) It's like, look, I didn't read it, I only read it because I was made to feel guilty, ashamed, or I was afraid.

[\[00:09:44\]](#transcript-00-09-44-127) There came a point where I was like, Well, if I read, if I read the Bible, I won't sin, I will get in, I'll get in less trouble.

[\[00:09:50\]](#transcript-00-09-50-128) That never worked.

[\[00:09:52\]](#transcript-00-09-52-129) Then it was like memorizing scripture, and that never worked.

[\[00:09:54\]](#transcript-00-09-54-130) I can remember memorizing all of Philippians and then sections of Romans.

[\[00:09:57\]](#transcript-00-09-57-131) And I remember memorizing Ephesians in high school.

[\[00:10:01\]](#transcript-00-10-01-132) And it's just like, I knew the verses, but man, I couldn't figure out how to make sense of them.

[\[00:10:07\]](#transcript-00-10-07-133) I, I can remember memorizing Ephesians in high school, and like, I don't even, how is it that I can memorize those passages and not see the sovereignty of God in salvation, it was overwhelming because I didn't understand the

[\[00:10:24\]](#transcript-00-10-24-134) sovereignty of God and salvation until I was in my 20s.

[\[00:10:28\]](#transcript-00-10-28-135) I remember the first time I read Ephesians, and it like I had this like supernatural awakening.

[\[00:10:36\]](#transcript-00-10-36-136) I was just, I was beat down.

[\[00:10:39\]](#transcript-00-10-39-137) I was so frustrated.

[\[00:10:41\]](#transcript-00-10-41-138) And I just wanted, like, I needed something.

[\[00:10:44\]](#transcript-00-10-44-139) And I was like, I'm just going to read Ephesians because I don't even know what to do with my life right now.

[\[00:10:48\]](#transcript-00-10-48-140) I'm married.

[\[00:10:49\]](#transcript-00-10-49-141) I've got two kids.

[\[00:10:51\]](#transcript-00-10-51-142) I've got one on the way.

[\[00:10:53\]](#transcript-00-10-53-143) And I just remember reading Ephesians and, like, wait, what is this?

[\[00:10:56\]](#transcript-00-10-56-144) Like, how have I've never seen this?

[\[00:10:58\]](#transcript-00-10-58-145) I remember taking the spine of the Bible, flipping it over and like, what version of this?

[\[00:11:01\]](#transcript-00-11-01-146) It was, you know, I grew up reading the King James Bible.

[\[00:11:03\]](#transcript-00-11-03-147) I'm like, did I grab another Bible off the shelf?

[\[00:11:06\]](#transcript-00-11-06-148) Like, is this the Book of Mormon?

[\[00:11:07\]](#transcript-00-11-07-149) What's going on here?

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-150) I was living in Utah at the time.

[\[00:11:10\]](#transcript-00-11-10-151) Started opening all kinds of questions for me.

[\[00:11:13\]](#transcript-00-11-13-152) And that was like that, that experience really set me on a journey of like, what else do I not know?

[\[00:11:20\]](#transcript-00-11-20-153) What else have I missed?

[\[00:11:21\]](#transcript-00-11-21-154) So, you know, guilting and shaming, you know, 20 years of guilt and shame never really got me to a point where I saw I wanted to, everybody around me believed that the Bible was beneficial and powerful, but it

[\[00:11:32\]](#transcript-00-11-32-155) just felt like one big to-do list.

[\[00:11:36\]](#transcript-00-11-36-156) Like, hey, you better obey God because he saved you.

[\[00:11:40\]](#transcript-00-11-40-157) You know,

[\[00:11:42\]](#transcript-00-11-42-158) it's like, what?

[\[00:11:43\]](#transcript-00-11-43-159) It's then you read about the love of God and how much he loved you.

[\[00:11:47\]](#transcript-00-11-47-160) He's like, I know you say you love me, but how you talk about God doesn't feel loving.

[\[00:11:52\]](#transcript-00-11-52-161) You know, you sound like an angry parent who is just like, you say you love me, but yet I don't see it in your tone or your actions or mercy or grace.

[\[00:12:03\]](#transcript-00-12-03-162) You know, I just see constant disappointment.

[\[00:12:06\]](#transcript-00-12-06-163) And that's how Bob Reading felt to me.

[\[00:12:09\]](#transcript-00-12-09-164) So being busy is just an excuse, really.

[\[00:12:13\]](#transcript-00-12-13-165) It's like,

[\[00:12:14\]](#transcript-00-12-14-166) I need to fill my time with something that matters because it doesn't feel like Bible reading matters because I can't seem to find any hope in it.

[\[00:12:22\]](#transcript-00-12-22-167) Right.

[\[00:12:23\]](#transcript-00-12-23-168) And that kind of leads to the second point that they bring up, which is the emotional and heart barriers that people feel when they're reading their Bibles.

[\[00:12:30\]](#transcript-00-12-30-169) Discouragement or emotional struggles make people avoid scripture.

[\[00:12:37\]](#transcript-00-12-37-170) I get, especially in today's world, right?

[\[00:12:39\]](#transcript-00-12-39-171) Because when you're stressed out, you just want to like zone, you know, fall into the Netflix

[\[00:12:48\]](#transcript-00-12-48-172) like disconnect.

[\[00:12:50\]](#transcript-00-12-50-173) Man, am I guilty of that?

[\[00:12:52\]](#transcript-00-12-52-174) Like, I felt I have felt that in the past, where I just want to zone out, like, I don't want to think about reality.

[\[00:12:56\]](#transcript-00-12-56-175) I'm so discouraged.

[\[00:12:57\]](#transcript-00-12-57-176) I'm emotionally shot, and it's work to read God's Bible.

[\[00:13:03\]](#transcript-00-13-03-177) Like, and you know, yeah, I feel dirty saying those kinds of things, but I'm just being vulnerable with you.

[\[00:13:09\]](#transcript-00-13-09-178) Like, everyone has gone through these experiences.

[\[00:13:12\]](#transcript-00-13-12-179) I wish poor pastors would admit their own struggles, right?

[\[00:13:16\]](#transcript-00-13-16-180) Sometimes I listen to pastors and I'm like,

[\[00:13:20\]](#transcript-00-13-20-181) What you know, what I need to get what you've got because you don't sound like you struggle with anything.

[\[00:13:27\]](#transcript-00-13-27-182) You've got it all together.

[\[00:13:28\]](#transcript-00-13-28-183) And then I read Paul, who I probably think is the greatest Christian that ever lived, and Paul's like, I ain't got nothing together.

[\[00:13:35\]](#transcript-00-13-35-184) Like, you, you, you, you clump all of my righteousness together, and none of you are going to want to dig through that and find any gems.

[\[00:13:42\]](#transcript-00-13-42-185) You're going to set it on fire.

[\[00:13:45\]](#transcript-00-13-45-186) It's like, okay, that could resonate with that, Paul.

[\[00:13:47\]](#transcript-00-13-47-187) They appreciate that.

[\[00:13:49\]](#transcript-00-13-49-188) And then he's like, look, if you want to know how I survive, I survive off God's grace.

[\[00:13:54\]](#transcript-00-13-54-189) I could resonate with that.

[\[00:13:55\]](#transcript-00-13-55-190) Like, that's now we're talking, right?

[\[00:13:58\]](#transcript-00-13-58-191) So discouragement, finding yourself in those moments of discouragement and emotional struggle, if the Bible, if you don't understand how to mine it or utilize it or obey it, meaning like how to find encouragement in the moments of discouragement.

[\[00:14:13\]](#transcript-00-14-13-192) Yeah, I get how you're not going to run to the text.

[\[00:14:15\]](#transcript-00-14-15-193) Another one is anger towards God or spiritual frustration.

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-194) Man, I'm really glad they put this in the article because I have people in my own church that I've had to walk this through, I walked through this.

[\[00:14:25\]](#transcript-00-14-25-195) Now, when my dad died, I didn't want to touch my Bible.

[\[00:14:28\]](#transcript-00-14-28-196) I was so confused.

[\[00:14:29\]](#transcript-00-14-29-197) I had prayed, I had fasted, I was convinced.

[\[00:14:33\]](#transcript-00-14-33-198) Like, how is it that you got evil people who are hurting and murdering.

[\[00:14:38\]](#transcript-00-14-38-199) And then you have my dad who's been helping people, giving his life to people for like his whole life.

[\[00:14:44\]](#transcript-00-14-44-200) And then you let him die.

[\[00:14:46\]](#transcript-00-14-46-201) That doesn't make any sense.

[\[00:14:48\]](#transcript-00-14-48-202) That's how my theology worked.

[\[00:14:49\]](#transcript-00-14-49-203) Like, I just remember being up on top of this mountain, just yelling out at God.

[\[00:14:52\]](#transcript-00-14-52-204) Like, I don't, I don't get it.

[\[00:14:54\]](#transcript-00-14-54-205) This makes zero sense.

[\[00:14:57\]](#transcript-00-14-57-206) I didn't want to go to the Bible.

[\[00:14:58\]](#transcript-00-14-58-207) And even when people wanted to give me Bible verses, I was like, yeah, well, I'll pretend because I understood how to play the game, but I was like, man, I can't make sense of this.

[\[00:15:07\]](#transcript-00-15-07-208) It wasn't long after that, I had that Ephesians moment I was telling you about because I was finally at a point where I gotta make sense of something.

[\[00:15:17\]](#transcript-00-15-17-209) But there's a lot of people who have been misled.

[\[00:15:19\]](#transcript-00-15-19-210) Like Satan's greatest tool is misinformation.

[\[00:15:24\]](#transcript-00-15-24-211) I mean, he tried it with Jesus.

[\[00:15:26\]](#transcript-00-15-26-212) Like, if

[\[00:15:28\]](#transcript-00-15-28-213) If you, like, Jesus, Satan has a shot at Jesus.

[\[00:15:32\]](#transcript-00-15-32-214) He comes at him, right?

[\[00:15:32\]](#transcript-00-15-32-215) How does he come at him?

[\[00:15:34\]](#transcript-00-15-34-216) He completely skews the text.

[\[00:15:36\]](#transcript-00-15-36-217) He misquotes it.

[\[00:15:38\]](#transcript-00-15-38-218) I have a whole section in there about context, like understanding biblical context, and how Satan will quote scripture, but he quotes it out of context.

[\[00:15:47\]](#transcript-00-15-47-219) And Jesus is like, no, actually, here's the context, and here's how this is supposed to be understood.

[\[00:15:52\]](#transcript-00-15-52-220) Like, I have this whole section in the book about this, and he's Satan.

[\[00:15:56\]](#transcript-00-15-56-221) So, like, if you don't understand scripture the way that Jesus does, then you are going to be destroyed by the Bible.

[\[00:16:04\]](#transcript-00-16-04-222) Like, can you imagine that?

[\[00:16:06\]](#transcript-00-16-06-223) The book that's supposed to set you free is the book that destroys your faith.

[\[00:16:10\]](#transcript-00-16-10-224) Happens all the time.

[\[00:16:12\]](#transcript-00-16-12-225) How do I know this?

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-226) Because I'm a pastor, it's happened to me, and thousands of you have reached out to Theocast where the Bible has become a billy club instead of this pool of grace.

[\[00:16:23\]](#transcript-00-16-23-227) That's satanic, man.

[\[00:16:25\]](#transcript-00-16-25-228) Tell me that's not satanic.

[\[00:16:27\]](#transcript-00-16-27-229) Paul says that.

[\[00:16:29\]](#transcript-00-16-29-230) He gets angry.

[\[00:16:30\]](#transcript-00-16-30-231) He's like, who bewitched you?

[\[00:16:32\]](#transcript-00-16-32-232) Like, this is witchcraft, turning the gospel into the law or adding things to the law.

[\[00:16:39\]](#transcript-00-16-39-233) That's why he says in Corinthians, he's like, Satan comes as an angel of light.

[\[00:16:44\]](#transcript-00-16-44-234) Well, what's an angel?

[\[00:16:45\]](#transcript-00-16-45-235) It's a messenger, right?

[\[00:16:46\]](#transcript-00-16-46-236) A messenger of light.

[\[00:16:47\]](#transcript-00-16-47-237) Like, I am here to proclaim to you good news, and then gives you the exact opposite of what you need, but it sounds good and it sounds right.

[\[00:16:54\]](#transcript-00-16-54-238) You know, that's why Paul's like, just because someone sounds smart and eloquent doesn't mean they're right.

[\[00:16:59\]](#transcript-00-16-59-239) I am not eloquent.

[\[00:16:59\]](#transcript-00-16-59-240) I stutter.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-241) I'm short.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-242) I'm ugly.

[\[00:17:02\]](#transcript-00-17-02-243) Don't look at me and determine what is right.

[\[00:17:04\]](#transcript-00-17-04-244) Listen to what I'm saying and compare it to what has come before.

[\[00:17:07\]](#transcript-00-17-07-245) Jesus is the fulfillment.

[\[00:17:09\]](#transcript-00-17-09-246) So I get.

[\[00:17:10\]](#transcript-00-17-10-247) That's why I'm so passionate about the book that I wrote because I want people to be able to say that's not accurate to the text.

[\[00:17:18\]](#transcript-00-17-18-248) That's not how the church has understood this.

[\[00:17:20\]](#transcript-00-17-20-249) Like the Creeds and Confessions matter because they really help guide and direct us away from law, gospel, confusion, and misapplying the law, and really misapplying supernatural texts, you know, making promises where there are no promises.

[\[00:17:34\]](#transcript-00-17-34-250) You know, if my people which are called by my name shall humble themselves, and we we apply that, we pray that and we wonder like well what happened well there's a context to that there's a way to understand

[\[00:17:44\]](#transcript-00-17-44-251) that passage you know i could do all things through christ who strengthens me there's a that that applies to something, but that doesn't necessarily apply to

[\[00:17:55\]](#transcript-00-17-55-252) how we often want to put it into a football game or whatever.

[\[00:18:00\]](#transcript-00-18-00-253) So, yeah, emotional and heart barriers might be one of the biggest problems for people who are trying to read the Bible.

[\[00:18:11\]](#transcript-00-18-11-254) Definitely.

[\[00:18:12\]](#transcript-00-18-12-255) Definitely my case for sure.

[\[00:18:15\]](#transcript-00-18-15-256) Next, cognitive and confidence barriers comes confusion about where to start reading.

[\[00:18:22\]](#transcript-00-18-22-257) Everybody starts their Bible reading plan in Genesis, and I'm like, please, don't do that.

[\[00:18:27\]](#transcript-00-18-27-258) I don't mean that, that you know, it's not wrong, but

[\[00:18:31\]](#transcript-00-18-31-259) I know, like, so sometimes we think because the Bible starts with Genesis, that that's where the story starts, and what it says with John in the beginning.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-260) I said, Yeah, I understand that, but um, this story, like the way the Bible was written, it has genres and structures, right?

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-261) Like, if you really want to understand Genesis, you should read Exodus.

[\[00:18:53\]](#transcript-00-18-53-262) You should start in Egypt.

[\[00:18:58\]](#transcript-00-18-58-263) And you're like, well,

[\[00:19:00\]](#transcript-00-19-00-264) you missed the beginning of the world.

[\[00:19:02\]](#transcript-00-19-02-265) Right.

[\[00:19:03\]](#transcript-00-19-03-266) But the book about the beginning of the world was written to exiles that just grew up in Egypt and left Egypt.

[\[00:19:11\]](#transcript-00-19-11-267) So, if you understand that, you're going to understand why he writes it the way he writes it, why Moses writes it the way he writes it.

[\[00:19:17\]](#transcript-00-19-17-268) So, like, the introduction to the Bible is Exodus, which then explains Genesis and then explains the rest of the law.

[\[00:19:27\]](#transcript-00-19-27-269) And so I hope you understand that even there's an introduction before that.

[\[00:19:32\]](#transcript-00-19-32-270) This is why we want to read, actually, with the New Testament in our hands because the New Testament is what informs us of how to understand the old.

[\[00:19:39\]](#transcript-00-19-39-271) It's the commentary, right?

[\[00:19:41\]](#transcript-00-19-41-272) We love commentaries.

[\[00:19:42\]](#transcript-00-19-42-273) I'm reading this in the Bible, and this commentary tells me how to understand it.

[\[00:19:45\]](#transcript-00-19-45-274) That's the New Testament.

[\[00:19:46\]](#transcript-00-19-46-275) You're holding the New Testament saying, well, what did Peter say about the Exodus?

[\[00:19:50\]](#transcript-00-19-50-276) What did Paul say about it?

[\[00:19:51\]](#transcript-00-19-51-277) What did Jude say about it?

[\[00:19:53\]](#transcript-00-19-53-278) Right?

[\[00:19:54\]](#transcript-00-19-54-279) So we are told that before the foundations of the world, God is already working.

[\[00:19:58\]](#transcript-00-19-58-280) It's called He's making a promise, a covenant to redeem his people.

[\[00:20:02\]](#transcript-00-20-02-281) So the Bible was written as a story of redemption.

[\[00:20:05\]](#transcript-00-20-05-282) How do we know that?

[\[00:20:06\]](#transcript-00-20-06-283) Because Paul tells us that, right?

[\[00:20:08\]](#transcript-00-20-08-284) So before Exodus is Corinthians.

[\[00:20:12\]](#transcript-00-20-12-285) Before that is Ephesians.

[\[00:20:13\]](#transcript-00-20-13-286) Like you can see, before the foundations of the world, God had already predetermined that He's going to save a people before the world began.

[\[00:20:18\]](#transcript-00-20-18-287) So, you know, the story is a story of redemption.

[\[00:20:21\]](#transcript-00-20-21-288) Then you read Exodus.

[\[00:20:22\]](#transcript-00-20-22-289) Then it gives you the context.

[\[00:20:23\]](#transcript-00-20-23-290) Then you read Genesis.

[\[00:20:24\]](#transcript-00-20-24-291) Like, all these tools are really helpful.

[\[00:20:26\]](#transcript-00-20-26-292) It's just understanding the nature of how to read them.

[\[00:20:29\]](#transcript-00-20-29-293) So in the book, I try to help you understand how to navigate the structure of the book and it leads you to Jesus.

[\[00:20:38\]](#transcript-00-20-38-294) Like, if you, if you understand what you're mining, what you're going for, it matters.

[\[00:20:42\]](#transcript-00-20-42-295) So, how you know, where do you start?

[\[00:20:44\]](#transcript-00-20-44-296) And my, my, I would say, like, if you're going on an expedition to find some kind of a treasure, you're going to need tools, and the tools aren't hard.

[\[00:20:53\]](#transcript-00-20-53-297) Like, the tools are not complicated.

[\[00:20:55\]](#transcript-00-20-55-298) It's what the tools end up mining is hard.

[\[00:20:57\]](#transcript-00-20-57-299) I'll give you an example.

[\[00:20:58\]](#transcript-00-20-58-300) Like, a shovel is not complicated technology, like how to make the tool and how to use the tool.

[\[00:21:04\]](#transcript-00-21-04-301) It is not a complicated technology.

[\[00:21:05\]](#transcript-00-21-05-302) It's ancient, right?

[\[00:21:07\]](#transcript-00-21-07-303) You've got the scoop, you've got a flat edge so you can step on it with your foot, then you have a handle so you can use some leverage and pull the dirt out.

[\[00:21:14\]](#transcript-00-21-14-304) There you go.

[\[00:21:14\]](#transcript-00-21-14-305) I mean, you can teach a two-year-old how to use a shovel.

[\[00:21:18\]](#transcript-00-21-18-306) This is why they exist at the beach for kids to use.

[\[00:21:22\]](#transcript-00-21-22-307) But what the shovel unearths?

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-308) Priceless, right?

[\[00:21:28\]](#transcript-00-21-28-309) You could unearth a treasure simply by digging.

[\[00:21:32\]](#transcript-00-21-32-310) So that's how tools work.

[\[00:21:34\]](#transcript-00-21-34-311) The tool isn't the goal, knowing the tool isn't the goal.

[\[00:21:39\]](#transcript-00-21-39-312) It's to take the tool and go into the text and then say, what am I about to unearth?

[\[00:21:43\]](#transcript-00-21-43-313) What am I about to discover as I dig and as I work through all of this and I get to the different layers?

[\[00:21:48\]](#transcript-00-21-48-314) And all of a sudden, I hit the treasure.

[\[00:21:50\]](#transcript-00-21-50-315) Now, it's also important to understand what you're digging for because you could land on something and think you've landed on the treasure, you know.

[\[00:21:56\]](#transcript-00-21-56-316) It's like, oh, I found a coin.

[\[00:21:58\]](#transcript-00-21-58-317) Yay!

[\[00:21:58\]](#transcript-00-21-58-318) It's like, no, you're not digging for a coin.

[\[00:22:01\]](#transcript-00-22-01-319) And we could do this where we're digging in the text and we find something interesting or applicable, and we think, oh, I found, no, no, no.

[\[00:22:08\]](#transcript-00-22-08-320) The treasure is Christ, not just a person, like just not the person of Jesus, but the treasure is Christ for you.

[\[00:22:17\]](#transcript-00-22-17-321) Right?

[\[00:22:18\]](#transcript-00-22-18-322) That's the point.

[\[00:22:19\]](#transcript-00-22-19-323) That's why Jesus is on the road to a maze, and he's like, All the scripture is pointing to the treasure of me.

[\[00:22:24\]](#transcript-00-22-24-324) Here are the tools on how to get it, gentlemen.

[\[00:22:26\]](#transcript-00-22-26-325) And he hands him a shovel.

[\[00:22:27\]](#transcript-00-22-27-326) He says, As you dig, don't stop digging till you get to me.

[\[00:22:31\]](#transcript-00-22-31-327) I am the treasure, Christ for you.

[\[00:22:34\]](#transcript-00-22-34-328) So understanding one, where the tool is will help you know where to dig and how to get how to start.

[\[00:22:41\]](#transcript-00-22-41-329) Another one, it says difficulty interpreting meaning or understanding.

[\[00:22:44\]](#transcript-00-22-44-330) And so I do work through there's six tools that I give you, and each one, when you get into a text, you can ask yourself, like, how is this?

[\[00:22:50\]](#transcript-00-22-50-331) What is the context?

[\[00:22:52\]](#transcript-00-22-52-332) Where's the continuity?

[\[00:22:53\]](#transcript-00-22-53-333) How does this connect?

[\[00:22:54\]](#transcript-00-22-54-334) Where's the law and the gospel here?

[\[00:22:56\]](#transcript-00-22-56-335) Right?

[\[00:22:57\]](#transcript-00-22-57-336) How is this connected to the story of Jesus?

[\[00:22:59\]](#transcript-00-22-59-337) Where is this connected in the covenants?

[\[00:23:00\]](#transcript-00-23-00-338) Because this covenant, the Bible is structured in covenants, right?

[\[00:23:04\]](#transcript-00-23-04-339) What is the supernatural nature of this text?

[\[00:23:05\]](#transcript-00-23-05-340) Like, what is it leading towards?

[\[00:23:07\]](#transcript-00-23-07-341) What are the benefits that are there?

[\[00:23:08\]](#transcript-00-23-08-342) So, those are all how the tools work.

[\[00:23:09\]](#transcript-00-23-09-343) If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

[\[00:23:12\]](#transcript-00-23-12-344) It's called pietism you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy that you wake up worrying about how well you're gonna perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:23:26\]](#transcript-00-23-26-345) it's dread versus joy, really.

[\[00:23:28\]](#transcript-00-23-28-346) That's pietism.

[\[00:23:29\]](#transcript-00-23-29-347) Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

[\[00:23:37\]](#transcript-00-23-37-348) And we have a little book for you.

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-349) It's free.

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-350) We want you to download it, and we're going to explain the difference between Pietism and what we call confessionalism, Reformed theology, really, how it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when Jesus says,

[\[00:23:51\]](#transcript-00-23-51-351) Come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

[\[00:23:55\]](#transcript-00-23-55-352) You can download it at our website, just go to theocost.org.

[\[00:23:58\]](#transcript-00-23-58-353) I wanted to put a put in someone's hands these powerful understandings.

[\[00:24:03\]](#transcript-00-24-03-354) Like, here's how to understand the text, and here's how I got there.

[\[00:24:06\]](#transcript-00-24-06-355) Like, here's the understanding, here's a conclusion of the text, and then here's how I got there.

[\[00:24:10\]](#transcript-00-24-10-356) Here's the tool so that you can go learn how to do it for yourself on a not-seminary level.

[\[00:24:14\]](#transcript-00-24-14-357) Like, you don't need a college degree in order to read this book and understand the tools.

[\[00:24:19\]](#transcript-00-24-19-358) It's powerful.

[\[00:24:20\]](#transcript-00-24-20-359) That's important to me because I want everyone to feel as if when they're listening to a sermon, they're in a Bible study, they're listening to a podcast, they'll be able to use discernment, saying, I have the tools to

[\[00:24:29\]](#transcript-00-24-29-360) mine the text, and sir, you're not, you're not, you're you misinterpret that text, you didn't think about all their other tools.

[\[00:24:37\]](#transcript-00-24-37-361) So, it's not just how you read the Bible, I'm more interested that you understand, like, how does the Bible work?

[\[00:24:43\]](#transcript-00-24-43-362) Right?

[\[00:24:44\]](#transcript-00-24-44-363) I mean, there's no, there's nothing more frustrating than going to the doctor, and you realize that the doctor is telling you misinformation.

[\[00:24:50\]](#transcript-00-24-50-364) You're like, what?

[\[00:24:51\]](#transcript-00-24-51-365) I know that that's not correct.

[\[00:24:52\]](#transcript-00-24-52-366) How is it that you don't know that?

[\[00:24:54\]](#transcript-00-24-54-367) We want to do this theologically, that we'll be able to hear the word of God preached or read it or listen to a podcast and be able to discern because we understand how to mine a text.

[\[00:25:03\]](#transcript-00-25-03-368) And that's the point of the book.

[\[00:25:06\]](#transcript-00-25-06-369) Lastly, social barriers: doing Bible reading alone without accountability.

[\[00:25:10\]](#transcript-00-25-10-370) Man, Satan won the victory on this one.

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-371) Oh, he has isolated us in every way, socially and culturally, but really, even Bible reading.

[\[00:25:18\]](#transcript-00-25-18-372) Man, it's insane how much we emphasize personal Bible reading, and people just are beat up by that.

[\[00:25:26\]](#transcript-00-25-26-373) Man, it's fascinating how much the Bible is communal, how much the Word of God and the discovery of it and digging into it and applying of it is a communal aspect.

[\[00:25:39\]](#transcript-00-25-39-374) And it shouldn't be an either-or, like, oh, it should only be communal.

[\[00:25:43\]](#transcript-00-25-43-375) But it does make it sound like the primary diet of the Christian life is you and your Bible alone.

[\[00:25:50\]](#transcript-00-25-50-376) And it's like, well, that would have been tough for like thousands of years until like 200 years ago.

[\[00:25:59\]](#transcript-00-25-59-377) I say that because just think about technology.

[\[00:26:02\]](#transcript-00-26-02-378) It was just in the early church,

[\[00:26:06\]](#transcript-00-26-06-379) people didn't know books, period.

[\[00:26:08\]](#transcript-00-26-08-380) Like it was just, you hold, you had scrolls, you had vellum, which is animals, and they would, they would be held in the synagogues, like the Old Testament would be held in the synagogues as Peter and Paul, Jude,

[\[00:26:20\]](#transcript-00-26-20-381) and James are writing their letters are getting passed around to the churches, and the pastors would make a copy and they would pass it on.

[\[00:26:24\]](#transcript-00-26-24-382) So the pastors had a copy.

[\[00:26:26\]](#transcript-00-26-26-383) And so you had the elders that they would, you know, have access to the synagogue and they had access to these letters.

[\[00:26:32\]](#transcript-00-26-32-384) But this is why they would gather.

[\[00:26:33\]](#transcript-00-26-33-385) This is why Peter or Hebrews says, do not forsake the assembling of yourselves as such as you are, right?

[\[00:26:38\]](#transcript-00-26-38-386) Because the gathering of the church, the elders could do their job of teaching and preaching, and um, you know, even in the day of a day of Pentecost, where you have the apostles, they're preached, and there's all these

[\[00:26:51\]](#transcript-00-26-51-387) people are saved, and they would go home and they gather around the food and they would discuss it, right?

[\[00:26:56\]](#transcript-00-26-56-388) Because they don't have it.

[\[00:26:58\]](#transcript-00-26-58-389) Maybe they could write it down, they could write it on their walls, or they could have portions of it, but they didn't have access to the word of God by themselves.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-390) And so the communal aspect of it is important.

[\[00:27:06\]](#transcript-00-27-06-391) This isolation, this isolating it is not helpful.

[\[00:27:10\]](#transcript-00-27-10-392) You have to forgive me here because I've recorded this podcast twice.

[\[00:27:13\]](#transcript-00-27-13-393) I think I can't remember if I used this illustration earlier or not, but I don't think I have.

[\[00:27:18\]](#transcript-00-27-18-394) I think I did on the other episode.

[\[00:27:19\]](#transcript-00-27-19-395) But, you know, my son Knox likes to read whenever we're driving around and he's sitting in the back seat of my truck and he likes reading Lord of the Rings.

[\[00:27:28\]](#transcript-00-27-28-396) I mean, at 10, it's impressive.

[\[00:27:30\]](#transcript-00-27-30-397) Nine years old, he reads Lord of the Rings.

[\[00:27:31\]](#transcript-00-27-31-398) And he'll ask me, like, that what does this word mean?

[\[00:27:33\]](#transcript-00-27-33-399) Or what do you think he means to this?

[\[00:27:34\]](#transcript-00-27-34-400) Or what does this phrase mean?

[\[00:27:36\]](#transcript-00-27-36-401) And so he is engaging reading with me.

[\[00:27:40\]](#transcript-00-27-40-402) Like immediately, if he doesn't understand something, he can just stop and ask, like, what does that word mean?

[\[00:27:44\]](#transcript-00-27-44-403) Or what do you think you meant by this?

[\[00:27:45\]](#transcript-00-27-45-404) Or here's an interesting, you know, as part of the story.

[\[00:27:49\]](#transcript-00-27-49-405) And that is normal where we should be able to be around other godly believers.

[\[00:27:56\]](#transcript-00-27-56-406) This is why midweek studies and finding ways to be around other people that know the word and discuss it together is encouraging.

[\[00:28:06\]](#transcript-00-28-06-407) So you're not applying it alone.

[\[00:28:07\]](#transcript-00-28-07-408) And this is why he's like, consider daily how to build one another up.

[\[00:28:11\]](#transcript-00-28-11-409) So, my like, I wrote a book about how to read the Bible, not so that people would read it alone.

[\[00:28:16\]](#transcript-00-28-16-410) I know that sounds crazy.

[\[00:28:18\]](#transcript-00-28-18-411) I just want people to know their Bibles, like, in any way they can get it.

[\[00:28:22\]](#transcript-00-28-22-412) And God has designed it through the preaching and teaching and the fellowship is a powerful way in which you know it.

[\[00:28:27\]](#transcript-00-28-27-413) And as the more you know it, then you can engage in it yourself.

[\[00:28:30\]](#transcript-00-28-30-414) And if you have questions, you know, knowing when to stop and say, All right, how do I find a solution to this?

[\[00:28:36\]](#transcript-00-28-36-415) It's helpful.

[\[00:28:37\]](#transcript-00-28-37-416) I have a whole section in there on how to read commentaries, which is good.

[\[00:28:40\]](#transcript-00-28-40-417) But we should be more communal in

[\[00:28:44\]](#transcript-00-28-44-418) our access to the word.

[\[00:28:45\]](#transcript-00-28-45-419) I do this all the time.

[\[00:28:46\]](#transcript-00-28-46-420) I have pastors that I love to call the elders.

[\[00:28:49\]](#transcript-00-28-49-421) We're always engaging in this.

[\[00:28:50\]](#transcript-00-28-50-422) And so I try not to study the Bible alone.

[\[00:28:52\]](#transcript-00-28-52-423) I don't want to mislead myself or the congregation.

[\[00:28:57\]](#transcript-00-28-57-424) And this kind of leads down to the last section they have, which is routine and memory barriers, you know, forgetfulness or not having a set routine.

[\[00:29:05\]](#transcript-00-29-05-425) Um,

[\[00:29:08\]](#transcript-00-29-08-426) yeah, I

[\[00:29:10\]](#transcript-00-29-10-427) look, it's good, it's good to create habits, I'm all for it.

[\[00:29:12\]](#transcript-00-29-12-428) Um, and we want to create consistency.

[\[00:29:17\]](#transcript-00-29-17-429) But I think if we remove some of the barriers of what I've spoken of before, confusion, bad theology, and guilt and shame-that's what we associate with the Bible.

[\[00:29:29\]](#transcript-00-29-29-430) I love the Bible.

[\[00:29:30\]](#transcript-00-29-30-431) I love engaging with it.

[\[00:29:31\]](#transcript-00-29-31-432) I engage with every day.

[\[00:29:34\]](#transcript-00-29-34-433) You know, do I have a set reading plan where I sit down and no?

[\[00:29:37\]](#transcript-00-29-37-434) I mean, I know a lot of pastors do, and a lot of people do.

[\[00:29:39\]](#transcript-00-29-39-435) I just love the word of God.

[\[00:29:41\]](#transcript-00-29-41-436) I'm always thinking about it, I'm always fascinated by it.

[\[00:29:45\]](#transcript-00-29-45-437) Um, whatever book I'm preaching in, I just live in it.

[\[00:29:47\]](#transcript-00-29-47-438) Like, I just got done with first and second Peter.

[\[00:29:50\]](#transcript-00-29-50-439) I felt like Peter has been my buddy for the last two years and uh loved preaching that.

[\[00:29:56\]](#transcript-00-29-56-440) And then James was my buddy for a while.

[\[00:29:58\]](#transcript-00-29-58-441) Now I'm in Genesis and it's like that is a wild ride, you know, wild ride.

[\[00:30:03\]](#transcript-00-30-03-442) Just going through Genesis 6 right now, 3 through 6 is like just you've got to know your tools if you're going to get through those sections and understand how it's connected to Jesus.

[\[00:30:14\]](#transcript-00-30-14-443) So, for me,

[\[00:30:17\]](#transcript-00-30-17-444) I don't want you to be impressed or like, oh, wow, John.

[\[00:30:19\]](#transcript-00-30-19-445) Look, I have struggles like everybody else does, but the Word of God is a comfort to me.

[\[00:30:24\]](#transcript-00-30-24-446) It's gone from guilt and shame or trying to use it as some kind of like, I'm going to tease God.

[\[00:30:29\]](#transcript-00-30-29-447) Like, look, I've been reading my Bible real faithfully.

[\[00:30:32\]](#transcript-00-30-32-448) I just, I'm over that.

[\[00:30:33\]](#transcript-00-30-33-449) Like, I don't need God's favor.

[\[00:30:34\]](#transcript-00-30-34-450) I don't need Him to be impressed with me.

[\[00:30:36\]](#transcript-00-30-36-451) There's nothing about me that He's impressed with.

[\[00:30:39\]](#transcript-00-30-39-452) You know,

[\[00:30:41\]](#transcript-00-30-41-453) at the end of the day, the good and faithful service, like he says, well done.

[\[00:30:46\]](#transcript-00-30-46-454) The only reason Jesus tells me well done is because I'm standing in his righteousness.

[\[00:30:53\]](#transcript-00-30-53-455) You know, we walk by faith, there's no way he's giving me a pat on the back because I did something.

[\[00:31:01\]](#transcript-00-31-01-456) This just doesn't make any sense, right?

[\[00:31:03\]](#transcript-00-31-03-457) So I want to hear well done, good and faithful servant.

[\[00:31:06\]](#transcript-00-31-06-458) How am I going to hear that?

[\[00:31:06\]](#transcript-00-31-06-459) Looking into Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

[\[00:31:10\]](#transcript-00-31-10-460) You know, the one who gave me everything I need by his divine power for life and godliness.

[\[00:31:15\]](#transcript-00-31-15-461) If he gave me everything I need, why is it that I'm going to stand up there and be like, pat me on the back?

[\[00:31:19\]](#transcript-00-31-19-462) Because I lacked something and I then brought it to heaven with me.

[\[00:31:23\]](#transcript-00-31-23-463) If he's given me everything I need for life and godliness and I walk by faith, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith, that's how you should read the Bible.

[\[00:31:29\]](#transcript-00-31-29-464) So then I'm like, look, the Bible becomes a joy.

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-465) Like, how can I see more of Christ today?

[\[00:31:34\]](#transcript-00-31-34-466) How can I be encouraged by him?

[\[00:31:35\]](#transcript-00-31-35-467) How can I contemplate on him?

[\[00:31:37\]](#transcript-00-31-37-468) I'd like to share this.

[\[00:31:38\]](#transcript-00-31-38-469) I want to encourage you.

[\[00:31:39\]](#transcript-00-31-39-470) I want to build you up.

[\[00:31:40\]](#transcript-00-31-40-471) I want to think about the supernatural nature of my faith.

[\[00:31:43\]](#transcript-00-31-43-472) I want to know the truth.

[\[00:31:44\]](#transcript-00-31-44-473) I hate being lied to, and I hate acting upon lies.

[\[00:31:48\]](#transcript-00-31-48-474) There's nothing that frustrates me more than I walk back and I look at my life and I go, that was completely wrong.

[\[00:31:55\]](#transcript-00-31-55-475) And I had access to the truth.

[\[00:31:57\]](#transcript-00-31-57-476) That's frustrating.

[\[00:31:58\]](#transcript-00-31-58-477) And so the more of God's word I'm liberated by, the more I'm intrigued by it.

[\[00:32:03\]](#transcript-00-32-03-478) And I want to be around people who love God's word rightly.

[\[00:32:07\]](#transcript-00-32-07-479) Like they understand the law and the gospel rightly.

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-480) And it's refreshing.

[\[00:32:12\]](#transcript-00-32-12-481) So that's at the heartbeat of this book.

[\[00:32:15\]](#transcript-00-32-15-482) Is tools for you to be able to look at and one, understand how to mine the text.

[\[00:32:22\]](#transcript-00-32-22-483) And then some of these tools might be new for some of you.

[\[00:32:24\]](#transcript-00-32-24-484) Like if you don't understand law, gospel distinction, covenant theology, Christ in all of scripture.

[\[00:32:29\]](#transcript-00-32-29-485) What does it mean that the gospel is the power of God, like a supernatural understanding of the gospel in your life?

[\[00:32:36\]](#transcript-00-32-36-486) These are all really, really important.

[\[00:32:38\]](#transcript-00-32-38-487) You know, context, continuity.

[\[00:32:40\]](#transcript-00-32-40-488) How is it all, how is it all connected?

[\[00:32:43\]](#transcript-00-32-43-489) And so I hope that you find it beneficial.

[\[00:32:48\]](#transcript-00-32-48-490) And

[\[00:32:50\]](#transcript-00-32-50-491) I look forward to it.

[\[00:32:51\]](#transcript-00-32-51-492) I'm going to be, for those of you that are interested, I'm going to go through each chapter and teach a class on it.

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-493) And that class will be available on the community.

[\[00:32:58\]](#transcript-00-32-58-494) So you can go to the Theocast community.

[\[00:33:00\]](#transcript-00-33-00-495) There's a bunch of other classes that are available there that I've taught.

[\[00:33:03\]](#transcript-00-33-03-496) When you finish the class, we're going to do a live QA at the end, work through some text, work through some hard portions.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-497) I'll let you bring some text, but we'll have a couple opportunities for there to be a live class where you can engage and ask about that.

[\[00:33:14\]](#transcript-00-33-14-498) I just want to help people love the Bible.

[\[00:33:17\]](#transcript-00-33-17-499) I do this at my church all the time.

[\[00:33:19\]](#transcript-00-33-19-500) Tonight, I'm going to be teaching the youth, and I love it.

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-501) So, just want to encourage other pastors.

[\[00:33:24\]](#transcript-00-33-24-502) If you're a pastor and you have questions about this, then please reach out.

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-503) I definitely want to talk to the pastors that are there and encourage you?

[\[00:33:31\]](#transcript-00-33-31-504) I've man, there's so many pastors that I've talked to throughout the years, and uh, so if you're a pastor, please reach out.

[\[00:33:37\]](#transcript-00-33-37-505) And um, you know, if you can't afford the book, we'll get books to you.

[\[00:33:41\]](#transcript-00-33-41-506) Like, you can have as many as you need as you want, and uh, if you can't afford the book, reach out.

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-507) We'll get you a copy.

[\[00:33:47\]](#transcript-00-33-47-508) I just want you to be cared for.

[\[00:33:49\]](#transcript-00-33-49-509) I want you to have the liberation of joy in Christ.

[\[00:33:51\]](#transcript-00-33-51-510) Like the Bible becomes a powerful weapon against discouragement and tearing down strongholds.

[\[00:33:58\]](#transcript-00-33-58-511) look, this country is not well.

[\[00:34:03\]](#transcript-00-34-03-512) We can't figure out if men can have babies.

[\[00:34:05\]](#transcript-00-34-05-513) Churches are being attacked.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-514) Wild.

[\[00:34:09\]](#transcript-00-34-09-515) And people's solutions.

[\[00:34:11\]](#transcript-00-34-11-516) Look, people aren't the enemy.

[\[00:34:14\]](#transcript-00-34-14-517) You got to remember that.

[\[00:34:15\]](#transcript-00-34-15-518) Paul, who was attacking people, is the one who wrote that.

[\[00:34:18\]](#transcript-00-34-18-519) We wrestle not against flesh and blood, right?

[\[00:34:21\]](#transcript-00-34-21-520) Paul attacking the church, Paul wasn't the enemy.

[\[00:34:24\]](#transcript-00-34-24-521) At the time, he was attacking the church.

[\[00:34:25\]](#transcript-00-34-25-522) He was attacking them.

[\[00:34:27\]](#transcript-00-34-27-523) The solution to our world is gospel proclamation.

[\[00:34:31\]](#transcript-00-34-31-524) Those who are willing to proclaim Jesus Christ for you, to do it in every area of our life.

[\[00:34:37\]](#transcript-00-34-37-525) That's why Peter's like, be ready to give an answer of the hope that lies within you.

[\[00:34:40\]](#transcript-00-34-40-526) Why?

[\[00:34:41\]](#transcript-00-34-41-527) Because the way we love and act and serve and work in our community causes people to step back and say, wait, wait a minute, wait.

[\[00:34:48\]](#transcript-00-34-48-528) Why are you acting this way?

[\[00:34:50\]](#transcript-00-34-50-529) I am persecuting you.

[\[00:34:51\]](#transcript-00-34-51-530) I'm yelling in your face.

[\[00:34:54\]](#transcript-00-34-54-531) I'm coming after you, and you're not responding with vengeance.

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-532) What's going on?

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-533) What hope do you have?

[\[00:35:00\]](#transcript-00-35-00-534) What do you understand that I don't understand?

[\[00:35:03\]](#transcript-00-35-03-535) Because there is no getting free, church.

[\[00:35:06\]](#transcript-00-35-06-536) If you're struggling and you're suffering and you find yourself in a place where like you're about to give up, the Bible is for you.

[\[00:35:15\]](#transcript-00-35-15-537) Like it is to give you hope that there's life beyond the grave.

[\[00:35:20\]](#transcript-00-35-20-538) That God's mercy is for you.

[\[00:35:22\]](#transcript-00-35-22-539) That when Paul's like, I'm suffering, and yet God's power is made perfect in weakness through grace.

[\[00:35:29\]](#transcript-00-35-29-540) And the more you read the Bible, the more God's grace is exposed and washed upon you.

[\[00:35:34\]](#transcript-00-35-34-541) Like the power of the God, the Bible is powerful.

[\[00:35:39\]](#transcript-00-35-39-542) And Satan wants you to ignore it, and he doesn't want you to know it.

[\[00:35:42\]](#transcript-00-35-42-543) He doesn't want you to be in a gospel community.

[\[00:35:44\]](#transcript-00-35-44-544) I mean, there's a lot of you who listen to this podcast and don't go to church because you got abused and hurt, you got turned off.

[\[00:35:49\]](#transcript-00-35-49-545) But Satan won.

[\[00:35:50\]](#transcript-00-35-50-546) I am sad that has happened to you, I'm heartbroken.

[\[00:35:54\]](#transcript-00-35-54-547) And I pray God's mercy upon you.

[\[00:35:57\]](#transcript-00-35-57-548) And I pray that you have the energy to go back to a church that's going to teach you the right way to love God and the gospel, and that we'll use the Word of God to restore you.

[\[00:36:09\]](#transcript-00-36-09-549) So may God bless this work and bless you.

[\[00:36:13\]](#transcript-00-36-13-550) And I look forward to seeing many of you in the community.

[\[00:36:16\]](#transcript-00-36-16-551) We're going to work through this together.

[\[00:36:17\]](#transcript-00-36-17-552) If you have questions or needs, you know, feel free to go to theocast.org and let us know.

[\[00:36:22\]](#transcript-00-36-22-553) And

[\[00:36:24\]](#transcript-00-36-24-554) I would not be able to put this book together if it wasn't for you and this community.

[\[00:36:28\]](#transcript-00-36-28-555) I was able to preach it at my church, but the Theocast community is what made this possible.

[\[00:36:34\]](#transcript-00-36-34-556) So, thank you for all of you that support us monthly, who give donations and share these resources.

[\[00:36:42\]](#transcript-00-36-42-557) That's what allowed us to produce this book and more to come.

[\[00:36:45\]](#transcript-00-36-45-558) And so I'm excited for the docket of books that we have got coming out this year.

[\[00:36:50\]](#transcript-00-36-50-559) So God bless you and Lord willing, I'll see you around the king's throne worshiping him and you'll never ever read this book, but if he doesn't return, then I pray that you'll be encouraged and we'll see you next

[\[00:37:01\]](#transcript-00-37-01-560) week.

[\[00:37:02\]](#transcript-00-37-02-561) Hey guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this, and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:37:07\]](#transcript-00-37-07-562) So, where do you go?

[\[00:37:08\]](#transcript-00-37-08-563) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:37:13\]](#transcript-00-37-13-564) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there,

[\[00:37:25\]](#transcript-00-37-25-565) and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:37:27\]](#transcript-00-37-27-566) You can go check it out.

[\[00:37:28\]](#transcript-00-37-28-567) The link is in the description below.

---

### Losing the War on Grace

*Published: January 21, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/losing-the-war-on-grace*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/EY%5FBHu98MCM)

If grace is your greatest weapon, wouldn’t it make sense for Satan to attack it first? In this episode, Jon Moffitt walks you through how the enemy shifts your focus from the sufficiency of Christ to moralism, fear, and performance. Many churches and podcasts today emphasize obedience over Jesus. That distortion is not harmless, it’s spiritual warfare. You are invited to consider how the gospel has been quietly replaced and why turning to Christ is essential for your assurance, growth, and hope. This is a call to rest in the gospel that truly saves and sustains.

* How the enemy shifts focus from Christ’s sufficiency to performance
* Moralism and fear replacing the gospel in churches and podcasts
* Why turning to Christ matters for assurance, growth, and hope

* [The Bible According to Jesus](https://theocast.org/products/the-bible-according-to-jesus) — how Jesus teaches us to read the Scriptures
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Grace as Divine Power?

*Published: January 14, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/grace-as-divine-power*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/ckjUfKmpLS8)

Is grace just a nice word, or is it spiritual power? In this episode, Jon talks about re-enchanting grace. Restoring its true, supernatural weight. Paul didn’t use grace as a soft or passive term but as a force directly connected to Jesus Christ. Grace forgives, yes, but it also strengthens and empowers. Stay tuned for a fun and meaningful discussion that will deepen your appreciation for what grace really is.

* Grace as more than a soft or passive word
* Paul’s connection of grace to the power of Jesus Christ
* Grace that forgives and also strengthens

* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Recovering a Supernatural Assurance

*Published: January 7, 2026 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/recovering-a-supernatural-assurance*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/kNrRMOkjHgM)

Struggling with assurance of salvation can feel like spiritual warfare… Because it is. Satan wants you to doubt your standing with God and keep you anxious and uncertain. Today’s episode is about how assurance is not found in your sincerity or obedience but in Christ alone. Jon discusses why you can’t fight this battle with fleshly means, but only with gospel truth. Exploring how the spiritual battle for assurance is directly linked to the comfort found in the finished work of Jesus.

* Assurance of salvation as a spiritual battle
* Why sincerity and obedience cannot ground your standing with God
* Gospel truth and the finished work of Jesus as comfort

* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:01\]](#transcript-00-00-01-1) When we think about the doctrine of assurance, we don't necessarily always think about it being spiritual warfare, but it is at its core.

[\[00:00:10\]](#transcript-00-00-10-2) You believing that you are good with God is the most important part of your life.

[\[00:00:16\]](#transcript-00-00-16-3) And Satan wants to keep you on your heels, constantly questioning: Am I dangling over the pits of hell?

[\[00:00:22\]](#transcript-00-00-22-4) Is God about to let me go?

[\[00:00:25\]](#transcript-00-00-25-5) Or maybe not so much your salvation, but God's disposition towards you.

[\[00:00:31\]](#transcript-00-00-31-6) And what we do is we often focus in on our sincerity or our obedience.

[\[00:00:37\]](#transcript-00-00-37-7) And this episode, it's to really show you and have a discussion about how this is spiritual warfare and this is a spiritual issue and you cannot use fleshly means in order to fight it.

[\[00:00:49\]](#transcript-00-00-49-8) It's an important concern about re-enchanting our Bibles and re-enchanting our faith when it comes to our standing before God.

[\[00:00:58\]](#transcript-00-00-58-9) Before we jump into it, as we do every week, let's take a moment and let's look to Christ and encourage our hearts to trust Him more.

[\[00:01:06\]](#transcript-00-01-06-10) Assurance is not just comfort, it is contested ground.

[\[00:01:10\]](#transcript-00-01-10-11) There are real enemies who want your faith weak and your conscience unstable.

[\[00:01:15\]](#transcript-00-01-15-12) Evil spirits do not need you to abandon Christianity.

[\[00:01:19\]](#transcript-00-01-19-13) They only need you to doubt whether Christ truly holds you.

[\[00:01:24\]](#transcript-00-01-24-14) If they can keep you questioning your standing before God, they can keep you exhausted, inward, and afraid.

[\[00:01:32\]](#transcript-00-01-32-15) And Satan is called the accuser for a reason.

[\[00:01:36\]](#transcript-00-01-36-16) His work is not creative, it's repetitive.

[\[00:01:39\]](#transcript-00-01-39-17) He drags forgiven sins back into your mind.

[\[00:01:43\]](#transcript-00-01-43-18) He whispers that this failure proves you were never really saved.

[\[00:01:48\]](#transcript-00-01-48-19) He tells you that God is patient with others, but weary of you.

[\[00:01:53\]](#transcript-00-01-53-20) And the moment you try to fight that voice with your own obedience, you have already lost.

[\[00:02:00\]](#transcript-00-02-00-21) You cannot fight spiritual warfare with flesh.

[\[00:02:05\]](#transcript-00-02-05-22) You cannot defeat accusations by promising to do better.

[\[00:02:10\]](#transcript-00-02-10-23) You cannot silence the enemy by inspecting your performance.

[\[00:02:16\]](#transcript-00-02-16-24) That only feeds the lie that your safety rests in you.

[\[00:02:21\]](#transcript-00-02-21-25) Faith is the weapon.

[\[00:02:23\]](#transcript-00-02-23-26) In Scripture is how that battle is fought.

[\[00:02:28\]](#transcript-00-02-28-27) Not as inspirational language, but as truth that captures the mind.

[\[00:02:33\]](#transcript-00-02-33-28) And when the mind is captured, the soul follows.

[\[00:02:36\]](#transcript-00-02-36-29) This is why Paul says to take every thought captive.

[\[00:02:40\]](#transcript-00-02-40-30) Unchecked thoughts become chains.

[\[00:02:43\]](#transcript-00-02-43-31) Gospel truth breaks them.

[\[00:02:46\]](#transcript-00-02-46-32) You have been set free, not by your consistency and not by your spiritual intensity, and not by your obedience.

[\[00:02:55\]](#transcript-00-02-55-33) You were set free by the blood of Christ and the verdict of God.

[\[00:03:00\]](#transcript-00-03-00-34) To doubt that verdict is not humility, it is surrendering ground the cross already won.

[\[00:03:07\]](#transcript-00-03-07-35) When you stand in your assurance, the accuser loses leverage, and when you know you are justified.

[\[00:03:15\]](#transcript-00-03-15-36) His voice has nowhere to land.

[\[00:03:19\]](#transcript-00-03-19-37) He can shout, but there is no hook, there is no grip, no fear to exploit.

[\[00:03:24\]](#transcript-00-03-24-38) This is why assurance terrifies the enemy.

[\[00:03:28\]](#transcript-00-03-28-39) A believer who knows they are secure does not panic under conviction.

[\[00:03:33\]](#transcript-00-03-33-40) They repent and rise.

[\[00:03:35\]](#transcript-00-03-35-41) They do not run from God, they run to Him, and they do not crumble under suffering.

[\[00:03:41\]](#transcript-00-03-41-42) They endure it knowing they are loved.

[\[00:03:44\]](#transcript-00-03-44-43) You do not stand in the strength of your obedience.

[\[00:03:48\]](#transcript-00-03-48-44) You do not stand in, you stand in the strength of the Lord.

[\[00:03:51\]](#transcript-00-03-51-45) When you stand there, the powers of darkness cannot move you.

[\[00:04:11\]](#transcript-00-04-11-46) Welcome to Theocast.

[\[00:04:12\]](#transcript-00-04-12-47) We talk about all of Christ for all of life.

[\[00:04:15\]](#transcript-00-04-15-48) And I'm your host, Jon Moffitt, and the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:04:20\]](#transcript-00-04-20-49) If you'd like to learn more about what we do at Theocast, you can go to theocast.org.

[\[00:04:24\]](#transcript-00-04-24-50) We have a free ebook there.

[\[00:04:25\]](#transcript-00-04-25-51) We've got all kinds of articles that are about reformed theology and Christian life and spiritual warfare.

[\[00:04:31\]](#transcript-00-04-31-52) You go and listen to it there.

[\[00:04:35\]](#transcript-00-04-35-53) This episode is one that has been sitting on my heart and mind for a while.

[\[00:04:42\]](#transcript-00-04-42-54) And when I talk about all of Christ for all of life, this is what I mean.

[\[00:04:46\]](#transcript-00-04-46-55) What I am convinced of in the Christian life is that we have just lost the spiritual nature of our faith.

[\[00:04:55\]](#transcript-00-04-55-56) Like, let me say it this way: we need to re-enchant our Bibles, we need to re-enchant our world.

[\[00:05:02\]](#transcript-00-05-02-57) We have tried to live the Christian life and understand God from a physical perspective only, from what we can see, from what we can hear, from what we can experience.

[\[00:05:14\]](#transcript-00-05-14-58) And that's how we measure what we will live for and trust.

[\[00:05:18\]](#transcript-00-05-18-59) And man, I've been really just thinking about this a lot.

[\[00:05:21\]](#transcript-00-05-21-60) And so, not a very scripted conversation today.

[\[00:05:23\]](#transcript-00-05-23-61) I just really wanted to talk to those of you who are feeling the weight of the world.

[\[00:05:31\]](#transcript-00-05-31-62) And at times, I would say questioning your purpose.

[\[00:05:36\]](#transcript-00-05-36-63) And then, for those of you specifically who are questioning your assurance, maybe not always am I saved, but is God okay with me?

[\[00:05:46\]](#transcript-00-05-46-64) Is God angry with me?

[\[00:05:47\]](#transcript-00-05-47-65) I mean, there's a broad perspective when it comes down to the idea of assurance.

[\[00:05:53\]](#transcript-00-05-53-66) Am I saved?

[\[00:05:55\]](#transcript-00-05-55-67) Is God good with me?

[\[00:05:56\]](#transcript-00-05-56-68) And am I even of use?

[\[00:06:00\]](#transcript-00-06-00-69) Like, what's the purpose of my life?

[\[00:06:02\]](#transcript-00-06-02-70) And I think people can fit in anywhere in that category.

[\[00:06:07\]](#transcript-00-06-07-71) We can, and often we look at the physical aspects of our life to answer those questions, how am I obeying?

[\[00:06:18\]](#transcript-00-06-18-72) What habits have I formed?

[\[00:06:21\]](#transcript-00-06-21-73) What can I, what sins have I not overcome?

[\[00:06:24\]](#transcript-00-06-24-74) What's my financial status?

[\[00:06:26\]](#transcript-00-06-26-75) What's my marital status?

[\[00:06:27\]](#transcript-00-06-27-76) You know, what's my influence?

[\[00:06:31\]](#transcript-00-06-31-77) Those are all the effectiveness that we think is happening.

[\[00:06:34\]](#transcript-00-06-34-78) We're so physically bound.

[\[00:06:37\]](#transcript-00-06-37-79) And this is why I use that phrase in the opening line: we have to re-enchant our world.

[\[00:06:42\]](#transcript-00-06-42-80) That might make some of us feel uncomfortable, but we're going to look at some passages today that really need to cause us to step back and reevaluate our faith, how we think about

[\[00:06:57\]](#transcript-00-06-57-81) this interaction that we have with God.

[\[00:07:01\]](#transcript-00-07-01-82) I mean, I think a verse that we know also well, and it's quoted often, but man, I've been really meditating on it lately.

[\[00:07:08\]](#transcript-00-07-08-83) Ephesians 6, when he says, We wrestle not against flesh and blood.

[\[00:07:12\]](#transcript-00-07-12-84) Like the war of the life that we live, he says there's this wrestling that happens.

[\[00:07:18\]](#transcript-00-07-18-85) And the biggest struggle that we're having is it's not in the thing that you can see.

[\[00:07:23\]](#transcript-00-07-23-86) It's not even flesh, it's not someone else.

[\[00:07:27\]](#transcript-00-07-27-87) Then he names a terrifying list of really an entire kingdom.

[\[00:07:33\]](#transcript-00-07-33-88) It's a structure of a kingdom, principalities, powers, rulers, the whole structure.

[\[00:07:38\]](#transcript-00-07-38-89) And he says, that's what you're wrestling.

[\[00:07:43\]](#transcript-00-07-43-90) So, you know, we think we're fighting politics, our neighbors, our bad habits.

[\[00:07:48\]](#transcript-00-07-48-91) Paul's like, that's not what you're fighting.

[\[00:07:51\]](#transcript-00-07-51-92) Not if you're in Christ.

[\[00:07:54\]](#transcript-00-07-54-93) I mean, we're talking about chapter six of the letter that's coming from Paul, when he's introducing people to the Christian life in the church of Ephesus, begins with Christ, then he goes to unity, then he gets to the

[\[00:08:08\]](#transcript-00-08-08-94) ending part: okay, you know, this is what you need to know.

[\[00:08:11\]](#transcript-00-08-11-95) Now that you know all of this to be true about Christ, this is what's going to want to keep you out of it.

[\[00:08:16\]](#transcript-00-08-16-96) Here's what is going to knock you down.

[\[00:08:19\]](#transcript-00-08-19-97) And because his solution is to stand in the strength of the Lord and in the power of his might, right?

[\[00:08:23\]](#transcript-00-08-23-98) Not in your strength.

[\[00:08:28\]](#transcript-00-08-28-99) Now that's terrifying.

[\[00:08:30\]](#transcript-00-08-30-100) Now, I think, and he uses strong language with the Galatians, right?

[\[00:08:34\]](#transcript-00-08-34-101) In Galatians chapter three, he says, Who bewitched you that you think you're going to live the Christian life in the flesh?

[\[00:08:41\]](#transcript-00-08-41-102) You begun by the spirit, you're now going to be perfected by the flesh.

[\[00:08:45\]](#transcript-00-08-45-103) Paul words it differently in Ephesians.

[\[00:08:46\]](#transcript-00-08-46-104) He's like, You're not wrestling against flesh and blood.

[\[00:08:51\]](#transcript-00-08-51-105) So these are,

[\[00:08:53\]](#transcript-00-08-53-106) you know, this is just, these are words that we have on our page, but how do we bring it to life in our faith, and I know some of you are probably thinking, like, oh, John's lost it, you

[\[00:09:06\]](#transcript-00-09-06-107) know, it's charismatic now.

[\[00:09:07\]](#transcript-00-09-07-108) And I'm told my charismatic friends out there who are listening to this, they're probably like, Fast, finally, somebody's talking about this.

[\[00:09:12\]](#transcript-00-09-12-109) Listen, to talk about the power of the spirit in the spiritual warfare doesn't mean you have to fall into one particular camp or another.

[\[00:09:19\]](#transcript-00-09-19-110) Like, this is the part of the Christian faith that we have got to stop, like, creating divisions and dividing lines.

[\[00:09:26\]](#transcript-00-09-26-111) Everything that I'm talking about fits within every Christian realm.

[\[00:09:30\]](#transcript-00-09-30-112) I don't care what brand of Christianity you call yourself, you have to deal with Ephesians 6 and you got to do with Galatians chapter 3.

[\[00:09:40\]](#transcript-00-09-40-113) You have to answer these passages in 1st and 2nd Peter, where it talks about be sober-minded, be vigilant.

[\[00:09:46\]](#transcript-00-09-46-114) Why?

[\[00:09:47\]](#transcript-00-09-47-115) Because there's an actual entity that wants to come and hurt you.

[\[00:09:52\]](#transcript-00-09-52-116) It's not an idea, it's not a metaphor.

[\[00:09:56\]](#transcript-00-09-56-117) Now, specifically, the area that I want to point out that I've been thinking about a lot lately is how assurance is not a physical battle.

[\[00:10:08\]](#transcript-00-10-08-118) Assurance is actually a spiritual warfare issue.

[\[00:10:12\]](#transcript-00-10-12-119) That is core.

[\[00:10:13\]](#transcript-00-10-13-120) Think about it.

[\[00:10:15\]](#transcript-00-10-15-121) You're not saved physically.

[\[00:10:19\]](#transcript-00-10-19-122) This is what we're talking about.

[\[00:10:21\]](#transcript-00-10-21-123) What's being rescued is the entirety of the person, which means your body and soul have been rescued by Christ.

[\[00:10:30\]](#transcript-00-10-30-124) And both your body and soul are now being used by Christ because you have come to life.

[\[00:10:37\]](#transcript-00-10-37-125) You're a new kind of creature.

[\[00:10:39\]](#transcript-00-10-39-126) The spirit is alive within you.

[\[00:10:42\]](#transcript-00-10-42-127) And so you don't fight in the kingdom with a physical body only, there's a dual aspect of it.

[\[00:10:52\]](#transcript-00-10-52-128) That's why I think Paul says what he says here in Ephesians chapter 6.

[\[00:10:58\]](#transcript-00-10-58-129) I think that for so long.

[\[00:10:59\]](#transcript-00-10-59-130) I mean, Theocast has been talking about this for 10 years about pietism and legalism, specifically pietism, which really emphasizes the external effort of the believer, where we're always focused in on what we're doing, and that's where we find

[\[00:11:12\]](#transcript-00-11-12-131) our sense of assurance.

[\[00:11:14\]](#transcript-00-11-14-132) Now, listen, I think it's very clear in scripture and in our confessions that we can look at our works that God is doing in us and through us, these fruits that are being produced, and they should bring a

[\[00:11:26\]](#transcript-00-11-26-133) sense of encouragement to us.

[\[00:11:29\]](#transcript-00-11-29-134) I'm all for that.

[\[00:11:31\]](#transcript-00-11-31-135) Our confession is very clear on that.

[\[00:11:35\]](#transcript-00-11-35-136) That our good works can and should encourage us, but there's a difference between encouraging and the source and the foundation or

[\[00:11:47\]](#transcript-00-11-47-137) the cause of our assurance.

[\[00:11:49\]](#transcript-00-11-49-138) Right?

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-139) There's a very, very different way of looking at it.

[\[00:11:54\]](#transcript-00-11-54-140) And

[\[00:11:56\]](#transcript-00-11-56-141) this is why this is an important conversation today because the moment you realize that assurance is like the core of the battleground for the Christian believer, and I think the church at large.

[\[00:12:08\]](#transcript-00-12-08-142) Then you're going to stop looking for physical solutions and you're going to be turning towards solutions that the Bible gives you, and they are spiritual.

[\[00:12:20\]](#transcript-00-12-20-143) They're outside nature, they're supernatural, right?

[\[00:12:26\]](#transcript-00-12-26-144) They are, they come to us by the Spirit.

[\[00:12:29\]](#transcript-00-12-29-145) And

[\[00:12:31\]](#transcript-00-12-31-146) it makes sense that Satan knows how powerful the gospel is.

[\[00:12:37\]](#transcript-00-12-37-147) He's very aware of it.

[\[00:12:38\]](#transcript-00-12-38-148) I mean, Jesus talks about when we're casting the seed of the gospel, he comes by and he picks it up and he prevents the unbeliever from being able to believe it, right?

[\[00:12:47\]](#transcript-00-12-47-149) He's blinding the eyes of the unbelievers.

[\[00:12:49\]](#transcript-00-12-49-150) That's what it says, right?

[\[00:12:51\]](#transcript-00-12-51-151) If 2 Corinthians, the God of this world is blinding the minds of the unbeliever, he understands how powerful the gospel is.

[\[00:12:58\]](#transcript-00-12-58-152) So, the church of Corinth, Paul's like, I cannot wait and come to preach to you the power of the gospel.

[\[00:13:04\]](#transcript-00-13-04-153) Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

[\[00:13:08\]](#transcript-00-13-08-154) So the words that are gathered from God's word are projected by our voice into the ears of another, and the spirit comes and does something that is outside the physical realm, and it's in the spiritual realm only.

[\[00:13:28\]](#transcript-00-13-28-155) That is

[\[00:13:30\]](#transcript-00-13-30-156) otherworldly, and that's the point.

[\[00:13:33\]](#transcript-00-13-33-157) I am definitely at the point in my faith, in my walk with Christ, that I cannot, in any way, shape, or form trust my flesh.

[\[00:13:43\]](#transcript-00-13-43-158) My flesh may fail, my body is weak.

[\[00:13:47\]](#transcript-00-13-47-159) What does the psalmist say?

[\[00:13:48\]](#transcript-00-13-48-160) But where are we looking?

[\[00:13:50\]](#transcript-00-13-50-161) Right?

[\[00:13:51\]](#transcript-00-13-51-162) We are always looking to Christ as our source.

[\[00:13:54\]](#transcript-00-13-54-163) And to do that requires faith.

[\[00:13:56\]](#transcript-00-13-56-164) And faith is a gift, a spiritual gift, a supernatural gift that comes to us, and that is the source of our assurance.

[\[00:14:08\]](#transcript-00-14-08-165) So when we're talking about assurance, assurance becomes down to the question: let's just start with the basics.

[\[00:14:16\]](#transcript-00-14-16-166) Am I saved?

[\[00:14:17\]](#transcript-00-14-17-167) Like, that's the basic, right?

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-168) Am I actually a new believer?

[\[00:14:22\]](#transcript-00-14-22-169) Does the Spirit live within me?

[\[00:14:23\]](#transcript-00-14-23-170) Have I been forgiven?

[\[00:14:24\]](#transcript-00-14-24-171) Am I okay with God as it comes down to judgment day?

[\[00:14:28\]](#transcript-00-14-28-172) And that's a very important question.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-173) Well, the world has tried to answer that question in many different ways, in many different religions, right?

[\[00:14:38\]](#transcript-00-14-38-174) We want to look to different aspects of our faith as things like our obedience or our baptism, things like that, as to finding the assurance of our faith.

[\[00:14:49\]](#transcript-00-14-49-175) And I can remember growing up as a kid, you know, I'd get down on my hands and knees because I was terrified that God would come back without and come back and I'd be left, right?

[\[00:14:58\]](#transcript-00-14-58-176) So, Lord, if I did really mean it last night, I really mean it tonight that I'm praying.

[\[00:15:02\]](#transcript-00-15-02-177) You know, I really, really, really believe this time.

[\[00:15:05\]](#transcript-00-15-05-178) And I was like waiting for it to land on me, like, okay, yeah, I'm saved.

[\[00:15:11\]](#transcript-00-15-11-179) Because I was, you know, 12, 11-year-old kid struggling with all kinds of stuff.

[\[00:15:16\]](#transcript-00-15-16-180) My body's going through all kinds of changes.

[\[00:15:18\]](#transcript-00-15-18-181) And I kept wanting this sense of relief and assurance that I just never felt like I could get.

[\[00:15:26\]](#transcript-00-15-26-182) And

[\[00:15:27\]](#transcript-00-15-27-183) it was my sincerity is what kept tricking me.

[\[00:15:33\]](#transcript-00-15-33-184) Like, am I sincere enough?

[\[00:15:35\]](#transcript-00-15-35-185) And it was never worded to me this way, but it was implied.

[\[00:15:39\]](#transcript-00-15-39-186) And I think this is what's so hard about Christianity and modern Christianity.

[\[00:15:43\]](#transcript-00-15-43-187) It's not necessarily what is said, it's what it's not said, right?

[\[00:15:46\]](#transcript-00-15-46-188) It's the implications and what is implied.

[\[00:15:49\]](#transcript-00-15-49-189) And what was implied to me was that my salvation, my assurance, was based upon transformation.

[\[00:15:56\]](#transcript-00-15-56-190) How did I trans, like did my life change and my sincerity?

[\[00:16:03\]](#transcript-00-16-03-191) that's the two aspects that were handed to me.

[\[00:16:08\]](#transcript-00-16-08-192) And I would hear sermons.

[\[00:16:10\]](#transcript-00-16-10-193) I'm sure some of you have heard sermons like this as well: like, you know, rededicating your life to the Lord, or, you know, I knew about God, or I believed in the gospel, but it wasn't until I really

[\[00:16:20\]](#transcript-00-16-20-194) gave my life to Jesus.

[\[00:16:21\]](#transcript-00-16-21-195) That's when I knew.

[\[00:16:23\]](#transcript-00-16-23-196) And I don't care what you give your life to, giving your life to Jesus doesn't save you.

[\[00:16:31\]](#transcript-00-16-31-197) Sincerity never saved anybody.

[\[00:16:34\]](#transcript-00-16-34-198) I know those are wild things to say, but when we look at scripture, you're being rescued out of something.

[\[00:16:42\]](#transcript-00-16-42-199) So I don't care how sincere you are, your sincerity never did anything for you and your salvation.

[\[00:16:49\]](#transcript-00-16-49-200) Let me explain.

[\[00:16:50\]](#transcript-00-16-50-201) The way in which the Bible describes this is that we were dead in our trespasses and sins.

[\[00:16:54\]](#transcript-00-16-54-202) We were part of the kingdom of darkness.

[\[00:16:56\]](#transcript-00-16-56-203) We were held captive by Satan, and we were under the condemnation of God.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-204) I mean, it's not that just you're a sinner, you're a slave, and you needed to be set free.

[\[00:17:06\]](#transcript-00-17-06-205) I mean, there's so many aspects to living as a human being in this world, right?

[\[00:17:11\]](#transcript-00-17-11-206) You were, there's a lot going on, and so just because you sincerely give your life to Jesus doesn't mean that all of a sudden you and God are good.

[\[00:17:21\]](#transcript-00-17-21-207) That doesn't necessarily, that's not how that works.

[\[00:17:24\]](#transcript-00-17-24-208) There is a lot of people who try to come to God in sincerity.

[\[00:17:28\]](#transcript-00-17-28-209) The rich young ruler came to Jesus in sincerity.

[\[00:17:32\]](#transcript-00-17-32-210) Like, Master, I've sincerely served you, I have kept the commandments.

[\[00:17:37\]](#transcript-00-17-37-211) I mean, listen, if there is, there's not a sincere guy more than the rich young willer, I don't, I don't know who's more sincere than that.

[\[00:17:47\]](#transcript-00-17-47-212) And so he said, or have I failed?

[\[00:17:50\]](#transcript-00-17-50-213) Where have I missed?

[\[00:17:52\]](#transcript-00-17-52-214) And Jesus says, We'll keep all the commandments.

[\[00:17:56\]](#transcript-00-17-56-215) And obviously, he's exposing him because the man doesn't understand the nature of the law, it's perfection.

[\[00:18:04\]](#transcript-00-18-04-216) And it's not some of the commandments, it's all of the commandments.

[\[00:18:08\]](#transcript-00-18-08-217) The man walked away sorrowful because he realized he couldn't do it.

[\[00:18:13\]](#transcript-00-18-13-218) But he never came to Jesus and said, He didn't say, How can I be a part of the kingdom like it's not it's not what am i lacking give me how i can fix it it's like jesus i'm

[\[00:18:25\]](#transcript-00-18-25-219) lacking everything so sincerity and sincerely obeying is not the solution to your salvation.

[\[00:18:33\]](#transcript-00-18-33-220) And it's definitely not the solution to

[\[00:18:36\]](#transcript-00-18-36-221) your assurance.

[\[00:18:37\]](#transcript-00-18-37-222) Let me tell you why.

[\[00:18:38\]](#transcript-00-18-38-223) How do you know you're sincere enough?

[\[00:18:40\]](#transcript-00-18-40-224) Like, is it like if there's a scale between like, like you know, dying, you'll die for your faith, and then maybe you'll show up on a Christmas morning or Easter Sunday, those are the scales of sincerity.

[\[00:18:53\]](#transcript-00-18-53-225) And as long as you're in between that scale, then you're okay.

[\[00:18:56\]](#transcript-00-18-56-226) You can have assurance, right?

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-227) But just if you stop coming to church on Easter, then you're done.

[\[00:19:01\]](#transcript-00-19-01-228) But just be on the scale at some point.

[\[00:19:04\]](#transcript-00-19-04-229) You're not going to find that.

[\[00:19:05\]](#transcript-00-19-05-230) You're not going to find sincerity in

[\[00:19:09\]](#transcript-00-19-09-231) In scripture.

[\[00:19:10\]](#transcript-00-19-10-232) Now, that's definitely a tactic of the evil one because you have to think about it.

[\[00:19:13\]](#transcript-00-19-13-233) Satan is the father of all lies.

[\[00:19:15\]](#transcript-00-19-15-234) He wants us to believe things that are slightly off.

[\[00:19:19\]](#transcript-00-19-19-235) If you listen to the lies that he offers Jesus in the wilderness.

[\[00:19:22\]](#transcript-00-19-22-236) He's quoting scripture.

[\[00:19:24\]](#transcript-00-19-24-237) He's just quoting it out of context.

[\[00:19:26\]](#transcript-00-19-26-238) And this happens so often.

[\[00:19:28\]](#transcript-00-19-28-239) I've heard people say, examine yourself to see if you're of the faith.

[\[00:19:30\]](#transcript-00-19-30-240) John, what is wrong with you?

[\[00:19:32\]](#transcript-00-19-32-241) This is heretical.

[\[00:19:32\]](#transcript-00-19-32-242) I know that in the YouTube comments, that someone's going to comment it down there.

[\[00:19:36\]](#transcript-00-19-36-243) Examine yourself to see if you're of the faith.

[\[00:19:38\]](#transcript-00-19-38-244) Well, you should read that in context.

[\[00:19:39\]](#transcript-00-19-39-245) Do me a favor before you quote that verse.

[\[00:19:41\]](#transcript-00-19-41-246) Just go read the whole section.

[\[00:19:42\]](#transcript-00-19-42-247) Read the whole chapter.

[\[00:19:44\]](#transcript-00-19-44-248) You're going to realize who Paul's talking to and why he says that.

[\[00:19:46\]](#transcript-00-19-46-249) And I've done a whole episode on it.

[\[00:19:48\]](#transcript-00-19-48-250) You can go to Theocast, type in Theocast, examine yourself, and you can watch that episode.

[\[00:19:54\]](#transcript-00-19-54-251) But assurance does not come by self-examination because then you are being justified by you.

[\[00:20:05\]](#transcript-00-20-05-252) Think about it this way.

[\[00:20:06\]](#transcript-00-20-06-253) This is Romans 8:33.

[\[00:20:08\]](#transcript-00-20-08-254) I love this.

[\[00:20:09\]](#transcript-00-20-09-255) Because we're talking about accusations.

[\[00:20:11\]](#transcript-00-20-11-256) So, like, if you're going to examine yourself, I'm telling you, you are going to be accused.

[\[00:20:17\]](#transcript-00-20-17-257) You will find something to bring in your own accusations against yourself.

[\[00:20:22\]](#transcript-00-20-22-258) If not, ask your spouse or your friend or your neighbor.

[\[00:20:25\]](#transcript-00-20-25-259) They'll figure find something for you to bring an accusation against you.

[\[00:20:30\]](#transcript-00-20-30-260) They will.

[\[00:20:31\]](#transcript-00-20-31-261) This is why Paul says it this way: Romans 8:33: Who shall bring any charge against God's elect.

[\[00:20:38\]](#transcript-00-20-38-262) It is God who justifies.

[\[00:20:41\]](#transcript-00-20-41-263) So they can bring the charge, but it doesn't matter.

[\[00:20:44\]](#transcript-00-20-44-264) You're not justifying yourself by your obedience, not before or after.

[\[00:20:49\]](#transcript-00-20-49-265) This is so important.

[\[00:20:50\]](#transcript-00-20-50-266) Not before you are justified and not after you are justified.

[\[00:20:55\]](#transcript-00-20-55-267) You're not justifying yourself based upon your obedience.

[\[00:21:03\]](#transcript-00-21-03-268) It's a spiritual matter.

[\[00:21:06\]](#transcript-00-21-06-269) It is a spiritual act.

[\[00:21:08\]](#transcript-00-21-08-270) This is why I want this language of reenchanting our Bibles: that when we read these types of verses, we realize that there is a whole spiritual realm, and that realm includes what God is doing through us.

[\[00:21:22\]](#transcript-00-21-22-271) We may not see it, but we can definitely experience the power of the Spirit in us by faith, that real peace and real joy and real comfort, real assurance can come to us, but it comes to us in

[\[00:21:36\]](#transcript-00-21-36-272) a spiritual form, not in a physical form.

[\[00:21:43\]](#transcript-00-21-43-273) Listen to this.

[\[00:21:44\]](#transcript-00-21-44-274) This is Philippians 4:7.

[\[00:21:46\]](#transcript-00-21-46-275) The peace of God will guard your hearts and your minds.

[\[00:21:49\]](#transcript-00-21-49-276) How?

[\[00:21:49\]](#transcript-00-21-49-277) In your obedience, in your assurance, in your sincerity, in your longevity, in your faithfulness.

[\[00:22:00\]](#transcript-00-22-00-278) He says that it's in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:22:06\]](#transcript-00-22-06-279) The peace of God, Philippians 4:7, the peace of God will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:22:12\]](#transcript-00-22-12-280) So, what you love and what you think, you're going to have peace.

[\[00:22:19\]](#transcript-00-22-19-281) Man, that would be amazing, right?

[\[00:22:23\]](#transcript-00-22-23-282) To have peace.

[\[00:22:25\]](#transcript-00-22-25-283) Because this is where we labor and we wrestle and we struggle.

[\[00:22:31\]](#transcript-00-22-31-284) And Paul is like, peace comes in Christ.

[\[00:22:36\]](#transcript-00-22-36-285) And it has to be all of who He is and what He has done in all of your life.

[\[00:22:40\]](#transcript-00-22-40-286) See, that's why that phrase matters.

[\[00:22:43\]](#transcript-00-22-43-287) We don't want some of Him, we want His death, life, resurrection, glorification.

[\[00:22:46\]](#transcript-00-22-46-288) We want Him to be our great high priest, who is a priest who is ever interceding for us right now by name.

[\[00:22:53\]](#transcript-00-22-53-289) He is praying for us, he represents us.

[\[00:22:56\]](#transcript-00-22-56-290) It is why we can pray at any moment, asking for mercy and grace and wisdom from the Father.

[\[00:23:01\]](#transcript-00-23-01-291) That peace is not, I've done well, therefore I can go request something from the Father.

[\[00:23:07\]](#transcript-00-23-07-292) It is, child, you have face planet, and now you can run into the presence of the Father and tell him about it with peace.

[\[00:23:15\]](#transcript-00-23-15-293) Why?

[\[00:23:15\]](#transcript-00-23-15-294) Because your presence and standing before God is not based upon your sincerity or your performance.

[\[00:23:25\]](#transcript-00-23-25-295) Assurance is a supernatural work of God in your life.

[\[00:23:30\]](#transcript-00-23-30-296) If you're new to theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

[\[00:23:33\]](#transcript-00-23-33-297) It's called pietism.

[\[00:23:34\]](#transcript-00-23-34-298) Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy, that you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:23:46\]](#transcript-00-23-46-299) It's dread versus joy, really.

[\[00:23:48\]](#transcript-00-23-48-300) That's pietism.

[\[00:23:50\]](#transcript-00-23-50-301) Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

[\[00:23:58\]](#transcript-00-23-58-302) And we have a little book for you.

[\[00:23:59\]](#transcript-00-23-59-303) It's free.

[\[00:24:00\]](#transcript-00-24-00-304) We want you to download it, and we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism, reformed theology, really.

[\[00:24:07\]](#transcript-00-24-07-305) How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when Jesus says, Come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

[\[00:24:15\]](#transcript-00-24-15-306) You can download it on our website, just go to theocast.org.

[\[00:24:18\]](#transcript-00-24-18-307) The more of the gospel that we hear, faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of Christ, the more of Jesus for you that you feed on and that you meditate on, the Spirit brings peace to your soul.

[\[00:24:36\]](#transcript-00-24-36-308) And from that comes good works, and from that comes fruit, and from that comes peace.

[\[00:24:44\]](#transcript-00-24-44-309) But we reverse it all of the time.

[\[00:24:46\]](#transcript-00-24-46-310) My labor, my work, my sincerity brings assurance, and you either have false pride, you either look at it and you have pride and arrogance.

[\[00:24:56\]](#transcript-00-24-56-311) And man, do I see this in the reformed world and Christianity?

[\[00:24:59\]](#transcript-00-24-59-312) People who feel like they perform really, really well.

[\[00:25:01\]](#transcript-00-25-01-313) And then they're just hard to be around because there's no humility, there's no grace, there's no unity of the spirit, because it's look how well I'm doing.

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-314) And then people have to act and believe the way we do about everything, or we won't agree with them, or we won't associate with them.

[\[00:25:20\]](#transcript-00-25-20-315) It's ridiculous.

[\[00:25:21\]](#transcript-00-25-21-316) And uh, or we won't allow people to have assurance because they're not living life the way in which we want to.

[\[00:25:28\]](#transcript-00-25-28-317) Now, listen, I'm not an antinomian.

[\[00:25:30\]](#transcript-00-25-30-318) If the Bible is very clear, you should not murder babies, and you should not marry the same gender, and you should not sleep.

[\[00:25:38\]](#transcript-00-25-38-319) Listen, where the Bible is clear on the law, let's uphold the law.

[\[00:25:43\]](#transcript-00-25-43-320) It's for our good.

[\[00:25:45\]](#transcript-00-25-45-321) You know, sometimes I look at laws and I'm like, that's ridiculous.

[\[00:25:48\]](#transcript-00-25-48-322) Like, I don't know who created that law.

[\[00:25:50\]](#transcript-00-25-50-323) That is of no benefit.

[\[00:25:51\]](#transcript-00-25-51-324) But the lawgiver is perfect, and right, and holy, and gracious, and kind.

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-325) And so he gives us laws that are good for us, they're not bad for us.

[\[00:26:00\]](#transcript-00-26-00-326) It's just don't try and use the law for your assurance.

[\[00:26:04\]](#transcript-00-26-04-327) Don't try and use the law for your sincerity because you're going to be condemned.

[\[00:26:11\]](#transcript-00-26-11-328) And what does Romans 8:1 say?

[\[00:26:13\]](#transcript-00-26-13-329) At the beginning of that chapter, we looked at Romans 8:33.

[\[00:26:15\]](#transcript-00-26-15-330) But what does Romans 8:1 say?

[\[00:26:18\]](#transcript-00-26-18-331) There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:26:22\]](#transcript-00-26-22-332) And that verse is just lost on most people.

[\[00:26:25\]](#transcript-00-26-25-333) You cannot be condemned.

[\[00:26:29\]](#transcript-00-26-29-334) I don't know how else you want to interpret that.

[\[00:26:31\]](#transcript-00-26-31-335) What does that mean?

[\[00:26:35\]](#transcript-00-26-35-336) There's no condemnation for those who are sincere, for those who are obedient, he says, For those who are in Christ Jesus, and you can't be in Christ unless a supernatural work of God in you.

[\[00:26:50\]](#transcript-00-26-50-337) And how do you know that the supernatural work of God is in you and you have this work in you?

[\[00:26:55\]](#transcript-00-26-55-338) How do you know that?

[\[00:26:57\]](#transcript-00-26-57-339) Faith.

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-340) And faith comes through hearing Christ.

[\[00:27:01\]](#transcript-00-27-01-341) It's circular, right?

[\[00:27:02\]](#transcript-00-27-02-342) It feels like it's right if you believe that Christ is enough to forgive you and to make you righteous before Him, and that He's coming back and He will make all things new, He will crack the curse in

[\[00:27:18\]](#transcript-00-27-18-343) half, and he will bring forth the new heavens and the new earth, and he will give you a new body.

[\[00:27:23\]](#transcript-00-27-23-344) You believe that to be true?

[\[00:27:25\]](#transcript-00-27-25-345) We better just put it simple, make it very simple.

[\[00:27:29\]](#transcript-00-27-29-346) Jesus is enough to save me from myself and my sin.

[\[00:27:35\]](#transcript-00-27-35-347) If you believe that, and only Jesus, and He is the only way, you believe that, and you are saved.

[\[00:27:43\]](#transcript-00-27-43-348) And if you struggle with the rest and you don't understand it, then it's time to be discipled.

[\[00:27:48\]](#transcript-00-27-48-349) Right?

[\[00:27:48\]](#transcript-00-27-48-350) And the more you know of Christ and the more you know of the Bible, the stronger your assurance will be.

[\[00:27:54\]](#transcript-00-27-54-351) What happens is we fill our hearts and our minds with worldliness, and it isn't necessarily the kind of worldliness we're thinking like, oh, it's like, you know, evil things, but we fill our minds with the world, we occupy

[\[00:28:08\]](#transcript-00-28-08-352) our time with the world, and then we wonder why we struggled assurance.

[\[00:28:13\]](#transcript-00-28-13-353) Well, because we think like the world, especially

[\[00:28:20\]](#transcript-00-28-20-354) our world right now, which is very disenchanted.

[\[00:28:24\]](#transcript-00-28-24-355) I mean, if we can't see it, improve it, examine it, and put a microscope on it, we're not going to believe in it.

[\[00:28:30\]](#transcript-00-28-30-356) And this is why evolution has been so powerful, the theory of evolution has been so powerful in our culture for so long because we want to be able to have an explanation for everything.

[\[00:28:39\]](#transcript-00-28-39-357) You know, even in Paul's day, they said the gospel is foolish.

[\[00:28:42\]](#transcript-00-28-42-358) Like, that's ridiculous.

[\[00:28:44\]](#transcript-00-28-44-359) Did you have a God who died for you so that you could be saved.

[\[00:28:49\]](#transcript-00-28-49-360) And people mock the idea of there being gods now.

[\[00:28:52\]](#transcript-00-28-52-361) I mean, getting yourself in trouble, all kinds of trouble with that.

[\[00:28:55\]](#transcript-00-28-55-362) First commandment: you shall have no other gods.

[\[00:28:57\]](#transcript-00-28-57-363) Why?

[\[00:28:58\]](#transcript-00-28-58-364) Because the evil one wants to pull our heart and mind in any way he can off of our God and King.

[\[00:29:07\]](#transcript-00-29-07-365) I think this is why Ephesians 6 matters so much.

[\[00:29:13\]](#transcript-00-29-13-366) Because if you think you're wrestling with what you can see, he's like, you're not.

[\[00:29:18\]](#transcript-00-29-18-367) Here's why.

[\[00:29:19\]](#transcript-00-29-19-368) All right, this is why this has mattered so much to me.

[\[00:29:22\]](#transcript-00-29-22-369) If it's physical, we feel like we have a shot at it in some way, because we can see it.

[\[00:29:28\]](#transcript-00-29-28-370) And if it's not us, someone else can manage it.

[\[00:29:31\]](#transcript-00-29-31-371) So, if the problem is a physical problem, then we can go towards physical solutions.

[\[00:29:36\]](#transcript-00-29-36-372) But the problem is that what we're facing every single day is not physical problems.

[\[00:29:42\]](#transcript-00-29-42-373) The problems that we're facing are spiritual problems.

[\[00:29:47\]](#transcript-00-29-47-374) I think this is the thing that has me more worked up about anything because the moment you understand your only hope is Jesus to get through life, to make it work, the only solution is Jesus, then you're going

[\[00:30:06\]](#transcript-00-30-06-375) to want to know about the supernatural nature of the gospel and how it works for you.

[\[00:30:13\]](#transcript-00-30-13-376) How else do you stand in the strength of the Lord?

[\[00:30:16\]](#transcript-00-30-16-377) What does that look like

[\[00:30:18\]](#transcript-00-30-18-378) we even come with physical solutions to some of that.

[\[00:30:22\]](#transcript-00-30-22-379) Well, it's journaling, it's Bible reading.

[\[00:30:24\]](#transcript-00-30-24-380) It's, you know, listen, those things are helpful, but that's not what he means.

[\[00:30:31\]](#transcript-00-30-31-381) When he says stand in the strength of the Lord, he doesn't mean 30 minutes of Bible reading.

[\[00:30:37\]](#transcript-00-30-37-382) Now, stay tuned.

[\[00:30:38\]](#transcript-00-30-38-383) In the coming episodes, we're going to talk more and more about this particular subject.

[\[00:30:42\]](#transcript-00-30-42-384) Like, what does it mean to have the strength of God, to stand in it, to be effective in our world, to actually do something in our world?

[\[00:30:52\]](#transcript-00-30-52-385) And you could be blind, you could be deaf, you could be wheelchair-bound, you could be dying of cancer, and yet you are standing in the strength of the Lord.

[\[00:31:04\]](#transcript-00-31-04-386) Well, that's that's a powerful thought to think about.

[\[00:31:07\]](#transcript-00-31-07-387) You could be three seconds from death, and you can have peace and joy, and you can be fighting for the king and his kingdom because you're doing it in God's strength.

[\[00:31:23\]](#transcript-00-31-23-388) That gets me excited.

[\[00:31:25\]](#transcript-00-31-25-389) Doesn't matter what your age is, your gender, your situation, what country you live in,

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-390) God loves you, He saved you, and He says, You stand in my strength, and you can take on the entire kingdom of darkness

[\[00:31:45\]](#transcript-00-31-45-391) because you're using my power, you're not using your power.

[\[00:31:49\]](#transcript-00-31-49-392) What an absolute fascinating thought to think about, right?

[\[00:31:56\]](#transcript-00-31-56-393) So

[\[00:31:58\]](#transcript-00-31-58-394) let's close this down.

[\[00:31:59\]](#transcript-00-31-59-395) This has been a little longer than I thought it was going to be, but just got thinking about this and I wanted to record it before I forgot.

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-396) Hebrews 10:14, he says, This for by a single offering, he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

[\[00:32:23\]](#transcript-00-32-23-397) Whose work?

[\[00:32:26\]](#transcript-00-32-26-398) Every single aspect of the gospel, the good news, every single, all of Christ, his sacrifice is not only cleansing you, it's sanctifying you.

[\[00:32:37\]](#transcript-00-32-37-399) For this is Hebrews 10:14, for by a single sacrifice, he has perfected for all time.

[\[00:32:46\]](#transcript-00-32-46-400) How do I know I'm okay with God?

[\[00:32:49\]](#transcript-00-32-49-401) Because Jesus paid for my sins, Jesus provided for my righteousness, and Jesus is paving the way for my glorification.

[\[00:33:00\]](#transcript-00-33-00-402) He does it all.

[\[00:33:04\]](#transcript-00-33-04-403) The mistake, and I think the horrible tactic of Satan that has worked in Christianity is that we think the Christian life is either about getting saved, keeping ourselves saved, or proving that we're saved.

[\[00:33:21\]](#transcript-00-33-21-404) We're not doing any work for the kingdom when we're doing that.

[\[00:33:24\]](#transcript-00-33-24-405) We're trying to secure our spot.

[\[00:33:26\]](#transcript-00-33-26-406) It's so selfish.

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-407) It's so small-minded, think about it.

[\[00:33:34\]](#transcript-00-33-34-408) Every day we wake up, we're trying to secure our spot in the kingdom, and we read all the passages that you can find plenty, and you can take them out of context.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-409) I'm writing a whole book right now called The Bible According to Jesus, or whatever we're going to call it.

[\[00:33:49\]](#transcript-00-33-49-410) But the point of it is: how to read the Bible the way that Jesus taught you to read it.

[\[00:33:55\]](#transcript-00-33-55-411) So you don't do this, you don't pull verses out of context.

[\[00:33:58\]](#transcript-00-33-58-412) And you see that all of Christ is sufficient to save your soul.

[\[00:34:03\]](#transcript-00-34-03-413) Imagine Christians who wake up to this.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-414) They wake up and they realize, I'm not listening to the lies of Satan anymore.

[\[00:34:13\]](#transcript-00-34-13-415) He won't point to my sincerity.

[\[00:34:15\]](#transcript-00-34-15-416) My sincerity is not enough.

[\[00:34:18\]](#transcript-00-34-18-417) He's not going to point to my obedience.

[\[00:34:19\]](#transcript-00-34-19-418) My obedience is not enough.

[\[00:34:21\]](#transcript-00-34-21-419) It might even be there.

[\[00:34:22\]](#transcript-00-34-22-420) I know it might even have some sincerity, but it will never be enough to assure me that God loves me and to assure me that I'm doing what's right, and to assure me that I am effective for the

[\[00:34:35\]](#transcript-00-34-35-421) kingdom or effective for my salvation.

[\[00:34:39\]](#transcript-00-34-39-422) This is why I love 2 Peter 1.

[\[00:34:43\]](#transcript-00-34-43-423) Everything for life and godliness has been granted to you by his divine power.

[\[00:34:48\]](#transcript-00-34-48-424) Chapter 1, verse 3.

[\[00:34:50\]](#transcript-00-34-50-425) By his divine power.

[\[00:34:51\]](#transcript-00-34-51-426) Did you notice?

[\[00:34:52\]](#transcript-00-34-52-427) Divine power.

[\[00:34:55\]](#transcript-00-34-55-428) That which you will not see physically, but you will experience spiritually.

[\[00:35:00\]](#transcript-00-35-00-429) We have to start thinking this way.

[\[00:35:03\]](#transcript-00-35-03-430) We walk by faith.

[\[00:35:06\]](#transcript-00-35-06-431) What does he say?

[\[00:35:07\]](#transcript-00-35-07-432) Walk by the Spirit, which is a supernatural experience, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, right?

[\[00:35:16\]](#transcript-00-35-16-433) So we have to begin to focus our hearts and our minds and intentions, not on ourselves.

[\[00:35:22\]](#transcript-00-35-22-434) And as we find that assurance and we understand this is a spiritual war that he wants to keep us focused, that we're not okay, that we're not safe, which means we'll pray less, we'll trust less, we'll serve others

[\[00:35:35\]](#transcript-00-35-35-435) less, we'll go to church less.

[\[00:35:39\]](#transcript-00-35-39-436) I know what it's like.

[\[00:35:40\]](#transcript-00-35-40-437) I felt it in my own soul where we get beat down by our sins, and it's like it's just easier to stay home, drink a cup of coffee, and maybe watch some Netflix or the game.

[\[00:35:49\]](#transcript-00-35-49-438) I'll live stream today.

[\[00:35:50\]](#transcript-00-35-50-439) I mean, I know all of that is.

[\[00:35:53\]](#transcript-00-35-53-440) He doesn't want us gathering for the spiritual nourishment of our souls.

[\[00:35:58\]](#transcript-00-35-58-441) He doesn't want us to be around others who are secretly despondent, who are secretly, they're not, they're not ready to open up and say, I don't know why I exist.

[\[00:36:13\]](#transcript-00-36-13-442) I don't know if I'm saved.

[\[00:36:15\]](#transcript-00-36-15-443) I don't know if anybody loves me.

[\[00:36:18\]](#transcript-00-36-18-444) I don't know if anybody cares for me.

[\[00:36:19\]](#transcript-00-36-19-445) The amount of people who sneak in and out of church, it's not because they're lazy.

[\[00:36:25\]](#transcript-00-36-25-446) Often it's because they're hurt and they're confused and they don't know about the wonder of Christ for them.

[\[00:36:35\]](#transcript-00-36-35-447) And if that's you, well, I hope the OCAS can be an encouragement to you.

[\[00:36:41\]](#transcript-00-36-41-448) That's why I do this podcast.

[\[00:36:44\]](#transcript-00-36-44-449) I want to encourage people in my city.

[\[00:36:47\]](#transcript-00-36-47-450) I want to encourage people in my church.

[\[00:36:49\]](#transcript-00-36-49-451) This is an extra source that I can give to them and encourage them, especially those who are new.

[\[00:36:55\]](#transcript-00-36-55-452) And I want to encourage those around the world.

[\[00:36:58\]](#transcript-00-36-58-453) If you don't live in my town and you can't come to my church, well, there's a community that you can come join.

[\[00:37:04\]](#transcript-00-37-04-454) And in that community, I'm trying to provide more and more resources to start teaching you about the supernatural nature of the law-gospel distinction.

[\[00:37:12\]](#transcript-00-37-12-455) That when Paul talks about this war, like, what does that mean?

[\[00:37:15\]](#transcript-00-37-15-456) And how are we involved in that?

[\[00:37:19\]](#transcript-00-37-19-457) How can we find comfort in seeing the covenants of Scripture fulfilled in Christ, that the Bible really is all about Jesus.

[\[00:37:30\]](#transcript-00-37-30-458) And that book is what gets us when we think about the cursed world that we live in, which is real.

[\[00:37:36\]](#transcript-00-37-36-459) Genesis 3, curse is not lifted yet.

[\[00:37:40\]](#transcript-00-37-40-460) Death is here, and destruction is upon us.

[\[00:37:46\]](#transcript-00-37-46-461) Then the Bible becomes the most precious gift to us, and the church that Christ died for the most precious gift to us.

[\[00:37:56\]](#transcript-00-37-56-462) Maybe rabbling today, maybe I spoke to some of you.

[\[00:37:59\]](#transcript-00-37-59-463) If I did, come in and chat with me in the community.

[\[00:38:02\]](#transcript-00-38-02-464) I'd love to see you in there.

[\[00:38:03\]](#transcript-00-38-03-465) I'd love to answer your questions.

[\[00:38:05\]](#transcript-00-38-05-466) We're doing live QA's in there and some classes.

[\[00:38:11\]](#transcript-00-38-11-467) I want to see people set free, I want to see people helped.

[\[00:38:15\]](#transcript-00-38-15-468) And hopefully this was encouraging you today.

[\[00:38:19\]](#transcript-00-38-19-469) And

[\[00:38:20\]](#transcript-00-38-20-470) if it was, share it with somebody.

[\[00:38:22\]](#transcript-00-38-22-471) Leave us a comment.

[\[00:38:24\]](#transcript-00-38-24-472) And Ward willing.

[\[00:38:26\]](#transcript-00-38-26-473) We'll see you next week.

[\[00:38:28\]](#transcript-00-38-28-474) God bless.

[\[00:38:29\]](#transcript-00-38-29-475) Hey guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:38:35\]](#transcript-00-38-35-476) So, where do you go?

[\[00:38:36\]](#transcript-00-38-36-477) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:38:40\]](#transcript-00-38-40-478) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources are there: past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's

[\[00:38:52\]](#transcript-00-38-52-479) there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:38:54\]](#transcript-00-38-54-480) You can go check it out.

[\[00:38:55\]](#transcript-00-38-55-481) The link is in the description below.

---

### The Christmas Paradox

*Published: December 17, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-christmas-paradox*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/%5FjBqIT9ezss)

Hooked by the holidays? Or just hoping to get through them? Whether you’re counting down to Christmas with excitement or bracing for the season’s sorrow, this episode is for you. Jon talks about the joy found in Christ during this time of year, regardless of your emotional state. The first coming of Jesus offers hope for the cheerful and the hurting alike. Tune in for a timely reminder that Christ meets us right where we are.

* Joy in Christ whether the holidays feel bright or heavy
* Hope in the first coming of Jesus for the cheerful and the hurting
* Christ meeting you right where you are this season

* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### The Strange Relief of a Grace-Shaped Life (w/ David Zahl)

*Published: December 10, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-strange-relief-of-a-grace-shaped-life-w-david-zahl*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/AVWGLvzuKoA)

Many Christians wrestle with anxiety, discouragement, and even thoughts of despair. Our performance-driven culture distorts our view of God and grace, leaving us feeling exhausted and hollow. In this episode, Jon interviews David Zahl about his new book: “The Big Relief.” We discuss how grace reorients our lives, bringing joy, purpose, and rest for weary souls. If you’re craving real relief, this conversation is for you.

* Anxiety and despair in a performance-driven culture
* How grace reorients life toward joy, purpose, and rest
* David Zahl on The Big Relief for weary souls

* [The Big Relief](https://amzn.to/3MywSRk) — David Zahl — urgency of grace for a worn-out world
* [Mockingbird](https://mbird.com/) — David Zahl's ministry
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### The Prosperity Gospel Test

*Published: December 3, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-prosperity-gospel-test*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/tkQwYLXO2ko)

You probably don’t believe in the prosperity gospel, at least not the version that promises wealth and health in exchange for faith or donations. But what if traces of it still influence your Christian life? In this episode, Jon explores how transactional thinking subtly creeps into the hearts of even Reformed believers. We often assume God's nearness or blessing is based on our performance, which can rob us of joy and rest in Christ. This episode aims to expose hidden prosperity thinking and point you back to the comfort of the true gospel.

* Transactional thinking that still shapes Reformed believers
* Assuming God’s nearness rests on performance
* Exposing hidden prosperity thinking and recovering rest in Christ

* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Why Do I Still Struggle with Sin? (w/ Luke Kjolhaug)

*Published: November 26, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-do-i-still-struggle-with-sin-w-luke-kjolhaugh*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/m67ArN9QjJA)

Have you ever wondered, “Why do I still struggle with this?” Many Christians expect that with maturity, temptation will decrease and sin will lose its appeal. But Scripture offers a more realistic view. In this episode, we talk about the saint-sinner reality. How believers remain both righteous in Christ and yet still battle the flesh. Jon is joined by special guest pastor and author, Luke Kjolhaug, to explore what the Bible actually says about spiritual growth, expectation, and daily struggle.

* The saint–sinner reality of the Christian life
* Why maturity does not mean temptation simply fades
* Spiritual growth, expectation, and daily struggle with Luke Kjolhaug

* [Sinner Saint](https://shop.1517.org/products/9781964419152-sinner-saint) — Luke Kjolhaug — primer to the Christian life
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:01\]](#transcript-00-00-01-1) Have you ever asked yourself this question, why do I still struggle with this sin?

[\[00:00:05\]](#transcript-00-00-05-2) I thought over time, as I become a more mature Christian, I would struggle less.

[\[00:00:10\]](#transcript-00-00-10-3) I would have less temptation.

[\[00:00:11\]](#transcript-00-00-11-4) I thought sin would become less enticing, or I would sin less.

[\[00:00:16\]](#transcript-00-00-16-5) These are all common questions.

[\[00:00:19\]](#transcript-00-00-19-6) And there's a biblical answer to this.

[\[00:00:21\]](#transcript-00-00-21-7) And there's a proper way of understanding our flesh and the spirit, the power, the side of us that we call the saint.

[\[00:00:27\]](#transcript-00-00-27-8) And it's called saint-sinner reality, where we're both a sinner and a saint at the same time.

[\[00:00:33\]](#transcript-00-00-33-9) And what does the Bible say our expectation should be?

[\[00:00:36\]](#transcript-00-00-36-10) Should eventually we have a 70-30 experience where 70% of us is not sinning and we're living righteous and 30% isn't.

[\[00:00:43\]](#transcript-00-00-43-11) We start out 50-50.

[\[00:00:44\]](#transcript-00-00-44-12) These are important questions.

[\[00:00:46\]](#transcript-00-00-46-13) And that's what we're going to talk about today.

[\[00:00:47\]](#transcript-00-00-47-14) I have a special guest with me, and he's written a book on the reality of a saint sinner.

[\[00:00:52\]](#transcript-00-00-52-15) It's a great discussion.

[\[00:00:53\]](#transcript-00-00-53-16) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:56\]](#transcript-00-00-56-17) Before we start the podcast today, let's take a moment and focus our hearts and our minds on Christ.

[\[00:01:02\]](#transcript-00-01-02-18) Let's look to Christ together.

[\[00:01:04\]](#transcript-00-01-04-19) If you've walked with Jesus for a while, you know, the tension.

[\[00:01:07\]](#transcript-00-01-07-20) You love him, but you still sin.

[\[00:01:10\]](#transcript-00-01-10-21) You want to obey, but you still fall short.

[\[00:01:14\]](#transcript-00-01-14-22) One moment you feel close to God, and the next, you wonder

[\[00:01:18\]](#transcript-00-01-18-23) how could he still love someone like you?

[\[00:01:21\]](#transcript-00-01-21-24) That's the saint and sinner reality.

[\[00:01:23\]](#transcript-00-01-23-25) Luther called it summa justis et pecator.

[\[00:01:26\]](#transcript-00-01-26-26) At the same time, righteous and sinner.

[\[00:01:29\]](#transcript-00-01-29-27) It's not a glitch in the Christian life, it is the Christian life.

[\[00:01:34\]](#transcript-00-01-34-28) In yourself, you're still weak.

[\[00:01:36\]](#transcript-00-01-36-29) You're still broken.

[\[00:01:38\]](#transcript-00-01-38-30) You're still fighting sin.

[\[00:01:39\]](#transcript-00-01-39-31) But in Christ, you are already righteous, already loved, already accepted.

[\[00:01:45\]](#transcript-00-01-45-32) Both are true, and the gospel holds them together.

[\[00:01:48\]](#transcript-00-01-48-33) When you fail, you don't look inward for reassurance, look outward to Jesus.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-34) He's your standing before God, not your performance, not your progress, Christ alone.

[\[00:02:01\]](#transcript-00-02-01-35) This truth keeps you from despair when you fall and from pride when you grow.

[\[00:02:07\]](#transcript-00-02-07-36) So today, when you feel the war inside between who you are and who you long to be, remember this: your identity isn't found in the struggle, it's found in your Savior.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-37) Look to Christ, He's the one who justifies the ungodly, sanctifies the weary, and one day will glorify the broken.

[\[00:02:29\]](#transcript-00-02-29-38) Let's jump into the topic.

[\[00:02:31\]](#transcript-00-02-31-39) All of Christ for all of life

[\[00:02:35\]](#transcript-00-02-35-40) All of Christ for life.

[\[00:02:46\]](#transcript-00-02-46-41) Welcome to Theocast.

[\[00:02:47\]](#transcript-00-02-47-42) It's good to be back with you and I have another episode.

[\[00:02:50\]](#transcript-00-02-50-43) I've got my friend Luke here with me.

[\[00:02:52\]](#transcript-00-02-52-44) I'll get into that in here in just a minute.

[\[00:02:54\]](#transcript-00-02-54-45) I'm Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:02:55\]](#transcript-00-02-55-46) I'm pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:02:58\]](#transcript-00-02-58-47) And if you'd like to learn more about our ministries, you can go to theocast.org where we have all kinds of books, and we have a community there that has classes available.

[\[00:03:07\]](#transcript-00-03-07-48) And that community is growing, it's about 2,500 people, and it's a wonderful place to ask questions.

[\[00:03:12\]](#transcript-00-03-12-49) There are people from around the world, so, a lot of prayer requests.

[\[00:03:15\]](#transcript-00-03-15-50) It's a fun group.

[\[00:03:16\]](#transcript-00-03-16-51) Love for you to come check it out.

[\[00:03:18\]](#transcript-00-03-18-52) With me today, they're going to do a book review, but really, I want us to talk about a subject that I love.

[\[00:03:25\]](#transcript-00-03-25-53) And with me today is Luke Chellog, he is a pastor in Minnesota, where I'm assuming it's pretty cold right now.

[\[00:03:33\]](#transcript-00-03-33-54) So our weather just changed here.

[\[00:03:36\]](#transcript-00-03-36-55) Yeah.

[\[00:03:38\]](#transcript-00-03-38-56) I have friends in Minnesota, and they're like, but the summers are amazing here.

[\[00:03:42\]](#transcript-00-03-42-57) I'm like, well, they're not wrong.

[\[00:03:47\]](#transcript-00-03-47-58) I think I'll stick with the summers in Tennessee.

[\[00:03:50\]](#transcript-00-03-50-59) But no, Luke and I were able to spend a little bit of time at the 15-17 conference that we were both at about a month ago.

[\[00:03:58\]](#transcript-00-03-58-60) But I have actually had your book longer.

[\[00:04:00\]](#transcript-00-04-00-61) I was given your book, I think it was a pre-copy, when I was in Arkansas.

[\[00:04:05\]](#transcript-00-04-05-62) And so I've had the opportunity to read through this and just not have had the opportunity to get Luke on.

[\[00:04:10\]](#transcript-00-04-10-63) So finally, we got to meet, got to talk a little bit.

[\[00:04:13\]](#transcript-00-04-13-64) And so, Luke, you're a pastor.

[\[00:04:14\]](#transcript-00-04-14-65) You've been a pastor for five years in Minnesota.

[\[00:04:17\]](#transcript-00-04-17-66) And tell us a little bit about you, tell us about your church and your family.

[\[00:04:21\]](#transcript-00-04-21-67) Yeah, thanks, Jon.

[\[00:04:22\]](#transcript-00-04-22-68) This is awesome.

[\[00:04:22\]](#transcript-00-04-22-69) I'm glad to have the opportunity to come on and chat with you about this book.

[\[00:04:27\]](#transcript-00-04-27-70) Yeah, I've been pastor here at Elam for going on five years now, I suppose.

[\[00:04:32\]](#transcript-00-04-32-71) Before I was here, I was a pastor on the East Coast in New Jersey, Princeton, New Jersey.

[\[00:04:39\]](#transcript-00-04-39-72) Church of the Lutheran Brethren is the denomination that I'm a part of.

[\[00:04:43\]](#transcript-00-04-43-73) So it's a pretty small, I think we have like a hundred and I don't know, 110 churches in the U.S., something like that.

[\[00:04:50\]](#transcript-00-04-50-74) But you go over to Africa and it's kind of exploding.

[\[00:04:54\]](#transcript-00-04-54-75) So, yeah, that's a little bit about my kind of denominational background, but before I was a pastor, I was actually a civil engineer for four years.

[\[00:05:06\]](#transcript-00-05-06-76) So, yeah, it's been kind of a strange thing, like that, that shift, and it was more you talk to different people about their call to ministry.

[\[00:05:16\]](#transcript-00-05-16-77) And some are like, Well, God got hold of me, and I just had to be a pastor, and it was like an undeniable call.

[\[00:05:22\]](#transcript-00-05-22-78) For me, it was nothing like that.

[\[00:05:24\]](#transcript-00-05-24-79) It was more just like I'm kind of discontent with what I'm doing right now.

[\[00:05:30\]](#transcript-00-05-30-80) And also, I want to learn more about why I believe what I believe.

[\[00:05:35\]](#transcript-00-05-35-81) And so, if I go to seminary to get a degree and just use that to raise a family, like it will not have been a loss.

[\[00:05:42\]](#transcript-00-05-42-82) So, I don't know, it's kind of a

[\[00:05:46\]](#transcript-00-05-46-83) not a like linear way God led me into the ministry, but clearly it worked.

[\[00:05:52\]](#transcript-00-05-52-84) So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[\[00:05:54\]](#transcript-00-05-54-85) Well, God definitely has His ways of bringing us into wherever our vocation might be.

[\[00:06:01\]](#transcript-00-06-01-86) So, this topic, oh, before I get into it, Doug, or not Doug, but I've done a podcast recently with Doug.

[\[00:06:08\]](#transcript-00-06-08-87) Luke wrote a book that I'm only going to mention now, but I'm going to talk to you about it later at the end of this podcast.

[\[00:06:13\]](#transcript-00-06-13-88) But this is a book I definitely highly recommend for you to get.

[\[00:06:17\]](#transcript-00-06-17-89) But it's the subject that I really want us to talk about.

[\[00:06:20\]](#transcript-00-06-20-90) And so I'll talk about this book here in a little bit.

[\[00:06:22\]](#transcript-00-06-22-91) One of the things that I love about my Lutheran brothers is how much this is emphasized, the idea of saint and sinner.

[\[00:06:33\]](#transcript-00-06-33-92) Um, I'm not sure exactly what your theological background is, um, and we're going to definitely hear about it, but I was not raised in the awareness of Reformed faith, law, gospel distinction.

[\[00:06:44\]](#transcript-00-06-44-93) I was raised in an Arminian Baptist background.

[\[00:06:47\]](#transcript-00-06-47-94) And so, the idea of a saint-sinner reality, which we'll get to an explanation here in a minute, was not my experience.

[\[00:06:53\]](#transcript-00-06-53-95) Really, the way I grew up and I experienced it was that

[\[00:06:58\]](#transcript-00-06-58-96) Jesus is definitely my Savior.

[\[00:07:00\]](#transcript-00-07-00-97) He forgave my sins.

[\[00:07:01\]](#transcript-00-07-01-98) He cleansed me of all my unrighteousness.

[\[00:07:04\]](#transcript-00-07-04-99) And it was almost as if I am this new creation.

[\[00:07:08\]](#transcript-00-07-08-100) I'm this new being.

[\[00:07:10\]](#transcript-00-07-10-101) And now this expectation is that I need to live exactly what I have become.

[\[00:07:16\]](#transcript-00-07-16-102) And this new creation, you know, and I would hear verses like, hey, Jon, the old has passed away.

[\[00:07:21\]](#transcript-00-07-21-103) Behold, all things are new.

[\[00:07:23\]](#transcript-00-07-23-104) The Holy Spirit now lives within you.

[\[00:07:25\]](#transcript-00-07-25-105) And so it wasn't that they expected perfection, but they didn't have a category for sin, except for if you were doing that, then you probably should start questioning your salvation.

[\[00:07:35\]](#transcript-00-07-35-106) Like, well, what's wrong with you?

[\[00:07:37\]](#transcript-00-07-37-107) And they would give you really measurements: like, here's how to measure whether you think that you're really saved.

[\[00:07:46\]](#transcript-00-07-46-108) And if you're still struggling with these kinds of sins, or if you're having a problem, or if there's some kind of a habitual issue that you're, you probably need to question your salvation.

[\[00:07:55\]](#transcript-00-07-55-109) And this is, I think, a lot of people's experiences where you come in to Christianity and there's a heavy emphasis on the new life, but it's not the new life in its totality, it's the new life of like

[\[00:08:10\]](#transcript-00-08-10-110) half of it, which then creates a lot of despair.

[\[00:08:12\]](#transcript-00-08-12-111) I, what I ended up doing is just hiding a lot of sin.

[\[00:08:15\]](#transcript-00-08-15-112) I would just pretend, you know, I was somebody different.

[\[00:08:19\]](#transcript-00-08-19-113) But, Luke, what's your experience with this?

[\[00:08:22\]](#transcript-00-08-22-114) Is this something that you grew up underneath, or how, how was this?

[\[00:08:25\]](#transcript-00-08-25-115) How did you come to understand this type of teaching?

[\[00:08:28\]](#transcript-00-08-28-116) Well, I'm a pastor, so I am no longer a sinner.

[\[00:08:31\]](#transcript-00-08-31-117) I'm just a saint.

[\[00:08:32\]](#transcript-00-08-32-118) So that's working out pretty well for me.

[\[00:08:34\]](#transcript-00-08-34-119) That's how it works, right?

[\[00:08:35\]](#transcript-00-08-35-120) Exactly.

[\[00:08:35\]](#transcript-00-08-35-121) Exactly.

[\[00:08:38\]](#transcript-00-08-38-122) No, it was funny.

[\[00:08:39\]](#transcript-00-08-39-123) I did grow up in attending a Lutheran church, but I feel like theologically my formation, for whatever reason, came more from Christian radio than maybe the sermons that I was hearing, and I love Christian radio, right?

[\[00:08:52\]](#transcript-00-08-52-124) Like, there's nothing intrinsically bad about it, but the particular brand that I was listening to, it was a lot of fluffy clouds and rainbows, kind of, and it was never, yeah, it was.

[\[00:09:05\]](#transcript-00-09-05-125) It I resonate a lot with what you just kind of described because that was my experience

[\[00:09:11\]](#transcript-00-09-11-126) as well, where, like, yes, Jesus is there, he's an important part of things.

[\[00:09:16\]](#transcript-00-09-16-127) We're never not going to talk about Jesus, but as far as being like him being an ongoing presence in your life and needing his daily forgiveness, that part of it was sort of, yeah, I would say that was

[\[00:09:32\]](#transcript-00-09-32-128) a big piece of the puzzle that just wasn't really there for me for whatever reason.

[\[00:09:39\]](#transcript-00-09-39-129) Right.

[\[00:09:39\]](#transcript-00-09-39-130) Right.

[\[00:09:40\]](#transcript-00-09-40-131) So, do this for our listeners, explain a little bit this phrase.

[\[00:09:44\]](#transcript-00-09-44-132) It's saint-sinnered.

[\[00:09:45\]](#transcript-00-09-45-133) Sometimes we use this phrase, and people think they know what they mean, like law, gospel, distinction, and then you have them define it, and you're like, Yeah, that's not what we mean by law, gospel distinction.

[\[00:09:54\]](#transcript-00-09-54-134) So, when we say Saint Sin or someone uses a pecator, what is it?

[\[00:09:58\]](#transcript-00-09-58-135) Why is that such an important distinction really coming out of the Reformation?

[\[00:10:03\]](#transcript-00-10-03-136) Why is this so important?

[\[00:10:05\]](#transcript-00-10-05-137) Yeah.

[\[00:10:06\]](#transcript-00-10-06-138) Well, you're saying it, I think, a lot better than I because I don't speak Latin, and that sounded right.

[\[00:10:10\]](#transcript-00-10-10-139) I don't either.

[\[00:10:11\]](#transcript-00-10-11-140) I just copy, I copy Chad or somebody else off of that.

[\[00:10:14\]](#transcript-00-10-14-141) I don't know where I grabbed that.

[\[00:10:15\]](#transcript-00-10-15-142) That's a bad guy to copy either.

[\[00:10:17\]](#transcript-00-10-17-143) Exactly, right?

[\[00:10:18\]](#transcript-00-10-18-144) Yeah, the whole similar similar uses epicater, this idea that we're simultaneously Christians, that's important to recognize.

[\[00:10:26\]](#transcript-00-10-26-145) Christians are simultaneously saints and sinners, this side of heaven.

[\[00:10:30\]](#transcript-00-10-30-146) So we have kind of this dual sort of Jekyll and Hyde identity, where we are fully, I think that's that's a key word here in this definition, too.

[\[00:10:40\]](#transcript-00-10-40-147) We're fully saints and fully sinners.

[\[00:10:44\]](#transcript-00-10-44-148) This is a part that we get a little bit uncomfortable with because I think by default, our version of I don't know, Christianity is sort of this like Nike version where you just do it, right?

[\[00:10:59\]](#transcript-00-10-59-149) Where little by little, this old sinner side of me becomes like less of a percentage of my identity.

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-150) I go from 48% sinner to 47% on one day, and then hopefully, like throughout my life, there's this kind of widening gap between the two, right?

[\[00:11:19\]](#transcript-00-11-19-151) Yeah.

[\[00:11:20\]](#transcript-00-11-20-152) But I think what we're talking about, and we're saying simultaneously, saint and sinner, is: we're saying that you, as a Christian, me as a Christian, there's never a day that goes by in my life where I don't need

[\[00:11:32\]](#transcript-00-11-32-153) the full forgiveness of Jesus, not just the partial forgiveness, not just a little bit, but like, I am a sinner through and through.

[\[00:11:40\]](#transcript-00-11-40-154) That, and that's like a qualitative rather than a quantitative kind of distinction, I think, when we're talking about sin there.

[\[00:11:47\]](#transcript-00-11-47-155) So, yeah, simultaneously, saint and sinner at the same time, at one and the same time, righteous and sinful.

[\[00:11:52\]](#transcript-00-11-52-156) There's kind of different ways you could phrase it, but that's sort of the heart of it.

[\[00:11:56\]](#transcript-00-11-56-157) Yeah, and I think everybody, you know, if you were to press people, yeah, I mean, I have a desire to sin at times, I don't want to do that.

[\[00:12:04\]](#transcript-00-12-04-158) And then I have a desire to want to do right.

[\[00:12:07\]](#transcript-00-12-07-159) And so they feel that tug of war.

[\[00:12:10\]](#transcript-00-12-10-160) But

[\[00:12:11\]](#transcript-00-12-11-161) it depends on how you were raised, or it depends on what you listen to.

[\[00:12:15\]](#transcript-00-12-15-162) When you talk about Christian radio.

[\[00:12:17\]](#transcript-00-12-17-163) Christian radio can tend to emphasize, I think, the saint side of it, which, you know, I've heard people say, hey, if we focus on too much of the sinner side, people are going to be too beat down.

[\[00:12:26\]](#transcript-00-12-26-164) They're going to always just feel so horrible about themselves.

[\[00:12:30\]](#transcript-00-12-30-165) It's almost almost like a self-love, like they're not going to love themselves.

[\[00:12:35\]](#transcript-00-12-35-166) And I'm like, there's a lot about us we don't want to love.

[\[00:12:39\]](#transcript-00-12-39-167) Paul literally, Paul says it this way: there are parts about him that he hates.

[\[00:12:46\]](#transcript-00-12-46-168) Yeah, he doesn't mess around about that.

[\[00:12:48\]](#transcript-00-12-48-169) Yeah.

[\[00:12:49\]](#transcript-00-12-49-170) yeah, and I love how he uses the present tense when he describes himself.

[\[00:12:54\]](#transcript-00-12-54-171) He's saying, Listen, I am the greatest sinner that I know.

[\[00:12:57\]](#transcript-00-12-57-172) And yet, in that same chapter, he's talking about the wonders and the glories of Christ's union to him, right?

[\[00:13:04\]](#transcript-00-13-04-173) I think, even, I think when Paul talks about like you're a new creature, all things have passed away, behold, all things have become new.

[\[00:13:11\]](#transcript-00-13-11-174) Sometimes they translate that as like a new creation.

[\[00:13:14\]](#transcript-00-13-14-175) But I think some of the older translations, which I would agree with, is new creature.

[\[00:13:19\]](#transcript-00-13-19-176) In other words, if you think about it, before Adam, there was just purity, right?

[\[00:13:26\]](#transcript-00-13-26-177) So in Adam, there was just purity.

[\[00:13:28\]](#transcript-00-13-28-178) So then Adam falls, and we go from a state of purity to a state of sin because, you know, in so in Adam all died, right?

[\[00:13:36\]](#transcript-00-13-36-179) And then

[\[00:13:38\]](#transcript-00-13-38-180) Christ comes, the new covenant comes, and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us.

[\[00:13:42\]](#transcript-00-13-42-181) And Paul is saying, there, this is a new, like, this type of being that is that was once dead and impure in Adam, but now has the spirit inside of them.

[\[00:13:54\]](#transcript-00-13-54-182) Their body is still impure, but they're standing before righteous, they're standing before God is now righteous.

[\[00:14:01\]](#transcript-00-14-01-183) That kind of existence has never been.

[\[00:14:03\]](#transcript-00-14-03-184) That is a because that's not Jesus.

[\[00:14:05\]](#transcript-00-14-05-185) Jesus is not that.

[\[00:14:06\]](#transcript-00-14-06-186) Jesus is not Saint-Sinner.

[\[00:14:08\]](#transcript-00-14-08-187) Praise God for that.

[\[00:14:08\]](#transcript-00-14-08-188) That would be horrible.

[\[00:14:10\]](#transcript-00-14-10-189) Yeah, it would be in a bad spot there, yeah.

[\[00:14:13\]](#transcript-00-14-13-190) So, this is a new kind of creature where everybody else in the world, everybody, and when they're born, they are born under Adam, therefore, they're born in this cursed sin where their flesh just takes control constantly all the

[\[00:14:26\]](#transcript-00-14-26-191) time.

[\[00:14:27\]](#transcript-00-14-27-192) And then the spirit comes in.

[\[00:14:29\]](#transcript-00-14-29-193) And, you know, it's hard to say it this way, but really, what is the way the New Testament, I think, at times described it, Luke, and I'd love to free you to talk about this, is that there's now

[\[00:14:40\]](#transcript-00-14-40-194) a war that happens between these two powers, your flesh and the spirit.

[\[00:14:46\]](#transcript-00-14-46-195) 100%.

[\[00:14:46\]](#transcript-00-14-46-196) And I mean, this is exactly what the Apostle Paul talks about.

[\[00:14:49\]](#transcript-00-14-49-197) I know there are debates about Romans 7 where Paul is talking about the good that I want to do, this is the exact thing that I don't do, and the evil I don't want to do.

[\[00:15:01\]](#transcript-00-15-01-198) This is the same thing I find myself continually drawn back toward.

[\[00:15:05\]](#transcript-00-15-05-199) And I would argue that that is, and I'm probably in the minority here, but I would argue that that is Paul talking in the present tense as a converted believer.

[\[00:15:15\]](#transcript-00-15-15-200) And there are certainly debates about that.

[\[00:15:17\]](#transcript-00-15-17-201) But you can go to places like Galatians 5 as well, where there is no debate about who is writing.

[\[00:15:23\]](#transcript-00-15-23-202) This is the converted Paul, and he's talking about the spirit and the flesh, and there is this war that happens within us between the old Adam, this old sin nature that we have, and then the new Adam, this

[\[00:15:35\]](#transcript-00-15-35-203) new creature that you'd mentioned, that we have been made into and are continually being made into, right?

[\[00:15:42\]](#transcript-00-15-42-204) Like there's a now but not yet aspect of this.

[\[00:15:46\]](#transcript-00-15-46-205) Um, and the two of those they don't get along very well, like they're at war with one another, and I think we feel-I don't know, I just like reflecting on my own time growing up.

[\[00:15:57\]](#transcript-00-15-57-206) I can remember times talking to pastors about just like particular sins that maybe I was struggling with in my own life, and I would talk about it in such a way as like this struggle is the problem.

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-207) The fact that there's this tension between what I want to do and what I actually do, like, that's a bad thing.

[\[00:16:21\]](#transcript-00-16-21-208) Help me exterminate this.

[\[00:16:23\]](#transcript-00-16-23-209) Help me get rid of it.

[\[00:16:25\]](#transcript-00-16-25-210) But the more that I, and I think this is part of what I'm trying to do with this book, is to help us see that that internal struggle is a sign of life.

[\[00:16:34\]](#transcript-00-16-34-211) Like the very fact that there is a civil war there, that presupposes that there is a new creature for the old to war against, right?

[\[00:16:43\]](#transcript-00-16-43-212) And that didn't used to be the case.

[\[00:16:45\]](#transcript-00-16-45-213) So this, this, the fact that there's tension and that there's um that we we feel that civil war is actually in a weird way uh kind of a a good thing because it it's the christian life.

[\[00:16:59\]](#transcript-00-16-59-214) This is what we walk in.

[\[00:17:01\]](#transcript-00-17-01-215) This is how we live this side of heaven.

[\[00:17:05\]](#transcript-00-17-05-216) And I think you can talk too about like, well, the saint side is, I think it's important to emphasize too, the saint side is ultimate, whereas the sinner side is penultimate.

[\[00:17:16\]](#transcript-00-17-16-217) So, again, like the we are only sinful this side of heaven, and you know, ultimately, our true identity is going to be like, we're going to become who God has already declared us to be.

[\[00:17:28\]](#transcript-00-17-28-218) So, it's a tension, though.

[\[00:17:30\]](#transcript-00-17-30-219) It's a wrestling, and it's not one that we're super comfortable with because we would prefer either ors to both ands, I think.

[\[00:17:37\]](#transcript-00-17-37-220) That's just so much neater.

[\[00:17:40\]](#transcript-00-17-40-221) Yeah.

[\[00:17:41\]](#transcript-00-17-41-222) Yeah, the tackle end to the podcast is all of Christ for all of life.

[\[00:17:44\]](#transcript-00-17-44-223) And I think that that's the part we forget that if there wasn't a remaining sin, if there wasn't a struggle within the body, we wouldn't need all of Christ to survive, right?

[\[00:17:55\]](#transcript-00-17-55-224) If we had the new body now, if we had that experience, then we would just be walking in pureness.

[\[00:18:01\]](#transcript-00-18-01-225) And this is why you have three different times it says, you know, walk by the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, right?

[\[00:18:07\]](#transcript-00-18-07-226) So putting, you know, looking unto Jesus, why would we do that?

[\[00:18:12\]](#transcript-00-18-12-227) Because we need to set aside the weight and the sin that easily besets us.

[\[00:18:15\]](#transcript-00-18-15-228) So, if I'm not looking unto Christ, that means I'm going to have sin that sets me up, that messes with me.

[\[00:18:22\]](#transcript-00-18-22-229) I think that even 1 John comes in, you know, he just slams down the gauntlet.

[\[00:18:28\]](#transcript-00-18-28-230) He's like, if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.

[\[00:18:31\]](#transcript-00-18-31-231) Right?

[\[00:18:32\]](#transcript-00-18-32-232) Yeah.

[\[00:18:34\]](#transcript-00-18-34-233) You're like, oh, I'm a liar.

[\[00:18:36\]](#transcript-00-18-36-234) It's what he just says, you're a liar, and the truth is not in you.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-235) And so, and I think this is important, but at the same time, John is very concerned with that, hey, we need to confess our sins.

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-236) What I love about 1 John, I've said this for years, and I know it made people feel uncomfortable because it made me feel uncomfortable the first time I may have heard it.

[\[00:18:56\]](#transcript-00-18-56-237) Someone else said it.

[\[00:18:56\]](#transcript-00-18-56-238) I don't know.

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-239) I just copy everybody else.

[\[00:18:59\]](#transcript-00-18-59-240) I don't have an original, I've had original sinful thought, but a good thought I don't know if I've ever had.

[\[00:19:05\]](#transcript-00-19-05-241) But God, in many ways, what this doctrine is teaching us is that God is expecting us to sin and to struggle.

[\[00:19:13\]](#transcript-00-19-13-242) This is why we walk by faith, right?

[\[00:19:16\]](#transcript-00-19-16-243) He says, Yeah, no, no, it's an expectation because of the world that He's saving us out of, right?

[\[00:19:23\]](#transcript-00-19-23-244) This is why John is saying this.

[\[00:19:25\]](#transcript-00-19-25-245) Like, if you think you get to a point where you don't have sin, you're not rightly understanding your status of who you are.

[\[00:19:32\]](#transcript-00-19-32-246) This is why one of the greatest gifts that we have, Hebrews 4, is that we at any moment, in any time, can run and ask for mercy.

[\[00:19:41\]](#transcript-00-19-41-247) He goes, In a time of need, you can, with boldness, come before the Father and ask for mercy and grace.

[\[00:19:46\]](#transcript-00-19-46-248) Why?

[\[00:19:46\]](#transcript-00-19-46-249) Well, because we're sinners, right?

[\[00:19:48\]](#transcript-00-19-48-250) And how is it that we would have the capacity to do that?

[\[00:19:51\]](#transcript-00-19-51-251) Because we're saints.

[\[00:19:52\]](#transcript-00-19-52-252) Like we have the right to boldly run into the presence of God because we're seen as righteous, but yet our flesh has sinned, and we need mercy and we need forgiveness.

[\[00:20:01\]](#transcript-00-20-01-253) If you're new to theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

[\[00:20:04\]](#transcript-00-20-04-254) It's called pietism.

[\[00:20:06\]](#transcript-00-20-06-255) Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy?

[\[00:20:11\]](#transcript-00-20-11-256) That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:20:18\]](#transcript-00-20-18-257) It's dread versus joy, really.

[\[00:20:20\]](#transcript-00-20-20-258) That's pietism.

[\[00:20:21\]](#transcript-00-20-21-259) Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

[\[00:20:29\]](#transcript-00-20-29-260) And we have a little book for you, it's free.

[\[00:20:31\]](#transcript-00-20-31-261) We want you to download it, and we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism, reformed theology, really.

[\[00:20:39\]](#transcript-00-20-39-262) How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when Jesus says, Come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

[\[00:20:47\]](#transcript-00-20-47-263) You can download at our website, just go to theocast.org.

[\[00:20:50\]](#transcript-00-20-50-264) This is where I want to kind of go with this, Luke.

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-265) It's kind of like this is an interesting doctrine, but this has massive implications to our Christian faith and how we think about life.

[\[00:21:01\]](#transcript-00-21-01-266) So, if we don't get this right, what ends up happening to a lot of believers?

[\[00:21:06\]](#transcript-00-21-06-267) Like, what's your experience of pastoring people or even You know, looking around just even in culture?

[\[00:21:11\]](#transcript-00-21-11-268) If we don't get this right, what are some of the negative effects upon us?

[\[00:21:15\]](#transcript-00-21-15-269) Yeah, man, it's not good.

[\[00:21:17\]](#transcript-00-21-17-270) It is not good.

[\[00:21:18\]](#transcript-00-21-18-271) I mean, if it's not this both and situation where you are a sinner and you're a saint, the only other possible alternative is you're either a sinner or you're a saint.

[\[00:21:30\]](#transcript-00-21-30-272) If you are a sinner without the saint, then you're driven to despair because you have no hope of the righteousness of Christ and of His forgiveness.

[\[00:21:42\]](#transcript-00-21-42-273) And if you're only a saint, then you have no ongoing need for the daily forgiveness of Christ, dependence upon him, and you're, yeah, it's not good at either.

[\[00:21:57\]](#transcript-00-21-57-274) It kind of either leads to one of two places, I would say, pride or despair, and neither of those are good places to be.

[\[00:22:04\]](#transcript-00-22-04-275) Yeah, I think just kind of tying this in, you know, if we tie in the law and the gospel into this, the law is what ends up comes in and reminds us of what God's expectation is, which is

[\[00:22:15\]](#transcript-00-22-15-276) absolute perfection.

[\[00:22:17\]](#transcript-00-22-17-277) And we look at that and we realize, oh, there's no way, I am.

[\[00:22:21\]](#transcript-00-22-21-278) I am utterly, but if you do not have the law, then you end up relativizing God's expectations of you, and you can look at your life and say, Yeah, I am a really good saint, you know, I'm doing

[\[00:22:33\]](#transcript-00-22-33-279) really, really well, and that creates less dependence upon Christ.

[\[00:22:36\]](#transcript-00-22-36-280) That creates less, we don't walk by faith.

[\[00:22:38\]](#transcript-00-22-38-281) We're walking by faithfulness.

[\[00:22:40\]](#transcript-00-22-40-282) And I don't know about you, but I've walked, I've been around cultures where we emphasize faithfulness.

[\[00:22:44\]](#transcript-00-22-44-283) And it's like, well, look, I have read my Bible.

[\[00:22:47\]](#transcript-00-22-47-284) I have done this.

[\[00:22:48\]](#transcript-00-22-48-285) I've done this.

[\[00:22:48\]](#transcript-00-22-48-286) I've done this.

[\[00:22:49\]](#transcript-00-22-49-287) I've done this.

[\[00:22:49\]](#transcript-00-22-49-288) I'm a faithful Christian.

[\[00:22:51\]](#transcript-00-22-51-289) And so we're trusting in our faithfulness.

[\[00:22:54\]](#transcript-00-22-54-290) And yet, we are, you know, we can look at the fruits that are coming out of our life, and it's like the fruit of your life is the evidence of what you are doing.

[\[00:23:05\]](#transcript-00-23-05-291) But when we're thinking about meekness and gentleness and kindness, we're thinking about showing compassion and mercy towards each other, that seems to be absent from your list.

[\[00:23:14\]](#transcript-00-23-14-292) Peter calls that an ineffective and unfruitful Christian, right?

[\[00:23:17\]](#transcript-00-23-17-293) Right, so we have to have the law because the law reminds us that what God expects us of us, man, we're never, and then we hunger for the gospel.

[\[00:23:27\]](#transcript-00-23-27-294) And the gospel is what you had just said: that good news that not only does He forgive us of our sins, that we're our conscience is made clean.

[\[00:23:35\]](#transcript-00-23-35-295) Like, God does never, I love what in the psalmist says that He separates it from as far as the east is from the west, he remembers it no more.

[\[00:23:43\]](#transcript-00-23-43-296) But it's not only that, because that's a partial gospel.

[\[00:23:47\]](#transcript-00-23-47-297) If it's not just, if it's just forgiveness, then this is what I was getting at as well.

[\[00:23:55\]](#transcript-00-23-55-298) Do you spend the rest of your life trying to prove to God your sainthood?

[\[00:24:00\]](#transcript-00-24-00-299) Like, I know I'm a saint because of what I have done.

[\[00:24:03\]](#transcript-00-24-03-300) And the good news of the gospel says, no, this is 2 Peter 1.

[\[00:24:07\]](#transcript-00-24-07-301) Everything that is required for life and godliness has been granted to you by divine power.

[\[00:24:13\]](#transcript-00-24-13-302) That means all of the righteousness that your forgiveness and your righteousness.

[\[00:24:17\]](#transcript-00-24-17-303) Like you have nothing left to do.

[\[00:24:20\]](#transcript-00-24-20-304) He calls you a saint because of what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:24:24\]](#transcript-00-24-24-305) We call this the act of obedience of Christ, right?

[\[00:24:26\]](#transcript-00-24-26-306) So when you get one of these off, you can get one, a despairing Christian who like they

[\[00:24:34\]](#transcript-00-24-34-307) can't seem to find any joy in Christ because all they can see is their sin.

[\[00:24:38\]](#transcript-00-24-38-308) Or you get a very judgmental Christian, and all they ever do is judge themselves by other people because they are extremely faithful.

[\[00:24:45\]](#transcript-00-24-45-309) And so we need both.

[\[00:24:47\]](#transcript-00-24-47-310) We need to understand who we are according to the law and who we are according to the gospel.

[\[00:24:53\]](#transcript-00-24-53-311) And that keeps that balance of saints sin a reality.

[\[00:24:57\]](#transcript-00-24-57-312) Yeah, I think too, of like what Paul says in Romans 6, because I mean, I love the way that Paul writes his letters and I love the way he argues because he anticipates the arguments that are going to

[\[00:25:07\]](#transcript-00-25-07-313) come up against him and the counterpoints, and he's like, Yeah, so what then?

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-314) Should we just sin that grace may increase?

[\[00:25:12\]](#transcript-00-25-12-315) And he says this multiple times: like, by no means, don't by no means, we who have died to sin, how can we live in this any longer?

[\[00:25:19\]](#transcript-00-25-19-316) Right?

[\[00:25:19\]](#transcript-00-25-19-317) So, I do think it's important to talk about, like, when we talk, I'm preaching through the book of Galatians right now at my church, which is an awesome book.

[\[00:25:30\]](#transcript-00-25-30-318) We're talking about the freedom in Christ in chapter five.

[\[00:25:34\]](#transcript-00-25-34-319) It is for freedom that Christ has set us free and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

[\[00:25:40\]](#transcript-00-25-40-320) But then Paul also goes on in that same passage to talk about how we're supposed to use that freedom, right?

[\[00:25:48\]](#transcript-00-25-48-321) It's freedom from something, freedom from bondage to the law, but it's also freedom for something.

[\[00:25:54\]](#transcript-00-25-54-322) It's freedom to love and to serve my neighbor.

[\[00:25:57\]](#transcript-00-25-57-323) So I think there's, you do have to be aware, like, there are those two ditches on the highway of Christian freedom, right?

[\[00:26:04\]](#transcript-00-26-04-324) Like, there's the legalism side on the one hand, but then there is also kind of the side of antinomianism or license or anarchy, however, you want to call that too.

[\[00:26:16\]](#transcript-00-26-16-325) And both of those are real, they certainly exist.

[\[00:26:20\]](#transcript-00-26-20-326) But yeah, so it's a matter of kind of how you how you use that Christian freedom, I think, is important.

[\[00:26:26\]](#transcript-00-26-26-327) Yeah, I think that's a good point that you're making.

[\[00:26:28\]](#transcript-00-26-28-328) So, like, if you have a proper understanding of Saint-Sinner reality, it works when you understand what God has called us to.

[\[00:26:36\]](#transcript-00-26-36-329) Like, if you think about the Antinomian, they, it's almost like they don't understand the purpose of life, but to fulfill their own personal desires, right?

[\[00:26:45\]](#transcript-00-26-45-330) And so they don't want any kind of structure because it's like, no, no, no, I am free to go do whatever I want.

[\[00:26:51\]](#transcript-00-26-51-331) And it's like, well, don't tread on me.

[\[00:26:53\]](#transcript-00-26-53-332) Yes, you're

[\[00:26:55\]](#transcript-00-26-55-333) that's right.

[\[00:26:56\]](#transcript-00-26-56-334) And it's like, yeah, but we've been called into the kingdom of light.

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-335) We have called to be proclaimers.

[\[00:27:01\]](#transcript-00-27-01-336) We have been called into the body of Christ.

[\[00:27:03\]](#transcript-00-27-03-337) Like, there's an actual purpose for your life.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-338) That's why Peter can say you're ineffective and unfruitful, and he doesn't mean in your salvation.

[\[00:27:11\]](#transcript-00-27-11-339) Like, that would make no sense.

[\[00:27:12\]](#transcript-00-27-12-340) Like, if like, I'm going to go to this section because I think it's really important.

[\[00:27:16\]](#transcript-00-27-16-341) So, in 2 Peter, I have just, I preached through this last year, and I really enjoyed it.

[\[00:27:24\]](#transcript-00-27-24-342) So, 2 Peter chapter 1, he says this, because this is really good for both the legalist and the antinomian.

[\[00:27:31\]](#transcript-00-27-31-343) His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

[\[00:27:35\]](#transcript-00-27-35-344) So, whatever it is I am to live, and however, I am to be godly, there's nothing left for you.

[\[00:27:42\]](#transcript-00-27-42-345) Like, do you really want to go to God and go?

[\[00:27:45\]](#transcript-00-27-45-346) I don't know if Jesus' divine power was quite enough to get me across the line.

[\[00:27:50\]](#transcript-00-27-50-347) I mean, how offensive is that?

[\[00:27:52\]](#transcript-00-27-52-348) Right?

[\[00:27:52\]](#transcript-00-27-52-349) When he died on the cross and he perfectly lived and you never messed up, I don't know if that was quite enough.

[\[00:27:58\]](#transcript-00-27-58-350) But this is what we practically end up doing.

[\[00:28:00\]](#transcript-00-28-00-351) So then he says, and how do we know?

[\[00:28:02\]](#transcript-00-28-02-352) Like, how do we know about this divine power?

[\[00:28:05\]](#transcript-00-28-05-353) He says, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence.

[\[00:28:10\]](#transcript-00-28-10-354) And I love how he goes on because then he talks about: well, maybe it was granted to us, but now we have to like do something so we don't lose it.

[\[00:28:19\]](#transcript-00-28-19-355) By which, yeah, by which he has granted to us, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of

[\[00:28:31\]](#transcript-00-28-31-356) sinful desire.

[\[00:28:32\]](#transcript-00-28-32-357) So, how is this happening?

[\[00:28:35\]](#transcript-00-28-35-358) This is all happening through what?

[\[00:28:37\]](#transcript-00-28-37-359) His very great promises, which the promises have nothing to do with you.

[\[00:28:41\]](#transcript-00-28-41-360) So, this is really, really important.

[\[00:28:43\]](#transcript-00-28-43-361) So, then he says, for this very reason, make every effort.

[\[00:28:46\]](#transcript-00-28-46-362) And it says, supplement your faith, but I think another way of saying this is to almost give away or express, like express the joy of what it is that you have in your faith because he's talking about love

[\[00:28:59\]](#transcript-00-28-59-363) and meekness and gentleness and kindness.

[\[00:29:02\]](#transcript-00-29-02-364) And then he says, This: For if these qualities are yours, right?

[\[00:29:06\]](#transcript-00-29-06-365) Sorry, I'm sorry, verse 9.

[\[00:29:08\]](#transcript-00-29-08-366) For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his former sins.

[\[00:29:17\]](#transcript-00-29-17-367) So, what he's getting at is that once you understand who you are, like you have been granted everything you need for life, and this reality is going to be there, this saint-sinnered reality.

[\[00:29:28\]](#transcript-00-29-28-368) But you have a focus for your life.

[\[00:29:30\]](#transcript-00-29-30-369) The focus for your life is not sinless perfection.

[\[00:29:33\]](#transcript-00-29-33-370) The focus for your life is to try and reflect what God has given to you in the gospel, like to love and be gracious and kind while we repent, right?

[\[00:29:43\]](#transcript-00-29-43-371) If the antinomian stops short, it's like, look, I have everything I need for life and godliness, and their life becomes self-focused.

[\[00:29:50\]](#transcript-00-29-50-372) It's all about themselves and self-gratification with no instruction from the Lord.

[\[00:29:54\]](#transcript-00-29-54-373) Well, that's that's no benefit.

[\[00:29:57\]](#transcript-00-29-57-374) That is ineffective and unfruitful.

[\[00:29:58\]](#transcript-00-29-58-375) That's exactly what he means.

[\[00:29:59\]](#transcript-00-29-59-376) By definition, right?

[\[00:30:01\]](#transcript-00-30-01-377) Yeah.

[\[00:30:02\]](#transcript-00-30-02-378) But I will go on to say this, and this is truly a problem in the United States.

[\[00:30:07\]](#transcript-00-30-07-379) I've seen individuals like this, but look, I don't know about you, I've seen more individuals who seem to not believe that verse three and four exist and that his divine power is partially given to them, and it's their

[\[00:30:21\]](#transcript-00-30-21-380) fruit, their good works.

[\[00:30:23\]](#transcript-00-30-23-381) That's the emphasis.

[\[00:30:24\]](#transcript-00-30-24-382) And what happens is they become legalist, meaning I must perform in a certain way.

[\[00:30:31\]](#transcript-00-30-31-383) In other words, I will never, or I'm not going to prove that I'm truly a Christian.

[\[00:30:36\]](#transcript-00-30-36-384) And so, this is the other side of the ditch that you're talking about.

[\[00:30:38\]](#transcript-00-30-38-385) You got one side where it's like they don't care how they live, and it's not helpful to anyone.

[\[00:30:43\]](#transcript-00-30-43-386) And then, in my opinion, the legalists are also not very helpful people because they're so introspective.

[\[00:30:49\]](#transcript-00-30-49-387) They so focus on themselves.

[\[00:30:52\]](#transcript-00-30-52-388) And they can get really harsh towards other people.

[\[00:30:54\]](#transcript-00-30-54-389) Like they can, they can be, if you don't live your life the way that I live my life, then you're probably not a Christian.

[\[00:31:00\]](#transcript-00-31-00-390) Has that been your experience?

[\[00:31:01\]](#transcript-00-31-01-391) Oh, 100%.

[\[00:31:02\]](#transcript-00-31-02-392) Yeah.

[\[00:31:02\]](#transcript-00-31-02-393) And it's rarely in an overt kind of way where it's like they're saying you must listen to Christian music only in order to be justified before the like nobody comes right out and says that kind of thing, but

[\[00:31:15\]](#transcript-00-31-15-394) it's more just like the culture that's there, and it's kind of in the background.

[\[00:31:20\]](#transcript-00-31-20-395) And I was thinking, too, as you were talking, like, Paul talks about how the law is written on the human heart, right?

[\[00:31:27\]](#transcript-00-31-27-396) The gospel is not.

[\[00:31:28\]](#transcript-00-31-28-397) So, we speak fluent law, we don't speak fluent gospel.

[\[00:31:33\]](#transcript-00-31-33-398) That's good, that's really good, and like just by nature, we are drawn toward checklists and we are drawn toward, you know, do this, don't do that.

[\[00:31:42\]](#transcript-00-31-42-399) That kind of vocabulary, it just comes natural to us.

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-400) But this idea of the gospel that God does something outside of myself, that he's going to gift me something that I don't deserve.

[\[00:31:55\]](#transcript-00-31-55-401) In fact, that I was like his enemy wanting to throw this gift back in his face, that I was the one that crucified his son, and yet he still went after me while I was his enemy to reconcile

[\[00:32:06\]](#transcript-00-32-06-402) me to God.

[\[00:32:07\]](#transcript-00-32-07-403) That is an idea that the human heart will never in a million years come up with.

[\[00:32:15\]](#transcript-00-32-15-404) So, yeah.

[\[00:32:16\]](#transcript-00-32-16-405) And that is such a great observation because, dude, I'm totally going to use that.

[\[00:32:22\]](#transcript-00-32-22-406) That is so good.

[\[00:32:23\]](#transcript-00-32-23-407) We speak fluent law.

[\[00:32:25\]](#transcript-00-32-25-408) I mean, this is true.

[\[00:32:26\]](#transcript-00-32-26-409) because what is Paul says in that same later on?

[\[00:32:29\]](#transcript-00-32-29-410) He goes, How will they hear unless there's a preacher?

[\[00:32:33\]](#transcript-00-32-33-411) So, innately inside them is the law condemning them, but the gospel has to, and this is like, see, the sign right behind me.

[\[00:32:40\]](#transcript-00-32-40-412) Here we go, extra nose outside of ourselves.

[\[00:32:43\]](#transcript-00-32-43-413) This is the whole idea that the gospel, the good news, is outside of us and it needs to be brought to us by means, right?

[\[00:32:51\]](#transcript-00-32-51-414) This is why Paul's like, consider how to build one another up through psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, right?

[\[00:32:56\]](#transcript-00-32-56-415) Faith comes by hearing and hearing through the.

[\[00:32:58\]](#transcript-00-32-58-416) Now, this is so important.

[\[00:33:00\]](#transcript-00-33-00-417) People always say, through the word.

[\[00:33:02\]](#transcript-00-33-02-418) no, through the word of Christ, right?

[\[00:33:06\]](#transcript-00-33-06-419) Christ for you.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-420) So if we are left alone to ourselves, we are going to be speaking the law to ourselves, either to condemn us, if we understand it correctly, or we relativize it and we think, Oh, I have done a good

[\[00:33:21\]](#transcript-00-33-21-421) job.

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-422) And this is where Jesus comes in and slams you and goes, Oh, yeah, you didn't murder anybody, but you hated somebody.

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-423) Oh, yeah, you didn't cheat on your spouse, but you thought about it and you're guilty, right?

[\[00:33:33\]](#transcript-00-33-33-424) And this is that we need that reminder of the law, but the only thing that truly comes and motivates us and sets us free and gives us joy is Christ for you, the hope of Christ, right?

[\[00:33:44\]](#transcript-00-33-44-425) 100%.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-426) That this is, I know that a lot of times people like to use this phrase.

[\[00:33:49\]](#transcript-00-33-49-427) So I'm going to pick a couple pet peeves right now, but when it says, you know, preach the gospel to yourself, I know what they mean.

[\[00:33:54\]](#transcript-00-33-54-428) And the way I would say that, if I were to reword it biblically, I would say, set your mind on things above, but the preach-you don't preach the gospel to yourself.

[\[00:34:04\]](#transcript-00-34-04-429) That's a supernatural gift given to you by God through the means of the church.

[\[00:34:08\]](#transcript-00-34-08-430) Right?

[\[00:34:08\]](#transcript-00-34-08-431) This is when you show up on Sunday, God shows up on Sunday and He preaches to you through the word, through the sacrament, through the song, and through the preacher.

[\[00:34:18\]](#transcript-00-34-18-432) That's where the preaching happens.

[\[00:34:19\]](#transcript-00-34-19-433) So don't ever think you're a good preacher to yourself.

[\[00:34:22\]](#transcript-00-34-22-434) What's that?

[\[00:34:23\]](#transcript-00-34-23-435) I said sometimes, in spite of the preacher, he brings his word.

[\[00:34:27\]](#transcript-00-34-27-436) Yeah, that's good.

[\[00:34:29\]](#transcript-00-34-29-437) Yeah, we take communion every Sunday, and there are times where I feel like, man, I just bombed that sermon.

[\[00:34:34\]](#transcript-00-34-34-438) I'm so glad we got communion coming next.

[\[00:34:36\]](#transcript-00-34-36-439) At least they're going to get Jesus some way.

[\[00:34:38\]](#transcript-00-34-38-440) Yep, absolutely.

[\[00:34:40\]](#transcript-00-34-40-441) I was just thinking about those two ditches, too.

[\[00:34:42\]](#transcript-00-34-42-442) Like legalism and antinomianism, they're really just versions of the same thing.

[\[00:34:46\]](#transcript-00-34-46-443) Like, they're both idolizing different stuff.

[\[00:34:49\]](#transcript-00-34-49-444) You know, legalism idolizes the law, turns it into this, not just something that drives me to Christ, but turns it into an end in and of itself to be worshipped.

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-445) Whereas antinomianism just kind of worships everything else, I guess.

[\[00:35:03\]](#transcript-00-35-03-446) Money and food and pleasure, and I mean, ultimately, it's the worship of self-it's what it is.

[\[00:35:09\]](#transcript-00-35-09-447) That's a good way to put it, yeah.

[\[00:35:11\]](#transcript-00-35-11-448) Yeah, because if Christ is the ultimate, then we're going to lay our life down for Christ.

[\[00:35:16\]](#transcript-00-35-16-449) But if we are the ultimate, then everybody else lays their life down for us and for our gratification and what we want.

[\[00:35:23\]](#transcript-00-35-23-450) Because antinomian doesn't help anybody, no one is ever helped by antinomianism.

[\[00:35:28\]](#transcript-00-35-28-451) And technically, nobody's ever helped by legalism either.

[\[00:35:32\]](#transcript-00-35-32-452) Exactly.

[\[00:35:33\]](#transcript-00-35-33-453) And I wouldn't want either one of them.

[\[00:35:36\]](#transcript-00-35-36-454) They're both horrible.

[\[00:35:37\]](#transcript-00-35-37-455) Yes.

[\[00:35:37\]](#transcript-00-35-37-456) I think we probably have more of a legalistic issue in evangelicalism than we do antinomianism.

[\[00:35:43\]](#transcript-00-35-43-457) Probably resonate with that.

[\[00:35:44\]](#transcript-00-35-44-458) Yep.

[\[00:35:46\]](#transcript-00-35-46-459) Well, I listen, I live in the belt buckle of this, you know, of the South where this is I very rarely, in Minnesota, you probably meet way more unbelievers than I do.

[\[00:35:57\]](#transcript-00-35-57-460) Everybody at some point has some kind of evangelical story in the cities that I live in.

[\[00:36:02\]](#transcript-00-36-02-461) And so entinoming isn't the issue here, it is people thinking that their performance is what matters.

[\[00:36:08\]](#transcript-00-36-08-462) So I have people who won't come to church because they have been so exhausted and beaten up by legalistic preaching.

[\[00:36:17\]](#transcript-00-36-17-463) And they don't, like, I'm going to go back to the Saint-Sinner reality.

[\[00:36:21\]](#transcript-00-36-21-464) It's like, oh, you're struggling.

[\[00:36:23\]](#transcript-00-36-23-465) Are you even a Christian?

[\[00:36:24\]](#transcript-00-36-24-466) Do you love Jesus?

[\[00:36:25\]](#transcript-00-36-25-467) You need to rededicate your life, right?

[\[00:36:27\]](#transcript-00-36-27-468) Like, temptation is somehow a problem for a Christian.

[\[00:36:31\]](#transcript-00-36-31-469) I'm like, what are you talking about?

[\[00:36:32\]](#transcript-00-36-32-470) That's a normal experience for the Christian life.

[\[00:36:34\]](#transcript-00-36-34-471) Paul literally says it's the normal experience.

[\[00:36:37\]](#transcript-00-36-37-472) Mm-hmm.

[\[00:36:38\]](#transcript-00-36-38-473) Yeah, no, totally.

[\[00:36:40\]](#transcript-00-36-40-474) I mean, I'm in rural Minnesota, so we're not in, like, I don't know, metropolitan area where secularism might be more rampant.

[\[00:36:47\]](#transcript-00-36-47-475) So, I kind of think we're sort of in the Bible belt, but okay, there's, there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of evangelicalism around where I'm at, too.

[\[00:36:55\]](#transcript-00-36-55-476) And I, I agree, like, the legalism is just the ditch that a lot of us veer toward.

[\[00:37:03\]](#transcript-00-37-03-477) I think it's good to just be aware of your natural tendency too, and to like be honest with yourself: say, hey, one of these, like, by nature, I'm going to tend to veer toward one of these ditches more

[\[00:37:12\]](#transcript-00-37-12-478) than the other, but you're right, like the legalistic impulse, that's more something that's like the Bible is clear.

[\[00:37:18\]](#transcript-00-37-18-479) This is written on the human heart, and self-salvation is anti-God, right?

[\[00:37:22\]](#transcript-00-37-22-480) And that's where that comes from.

[\[00:37:24\]](#transcript-00-37-24-481) So, yeah.

[\[00:37:26\]](#transcript-00-37-26-482) I think that

[\[00:37:28\]](#transcript-00-37-28-483) one of the other is I want to go to before we end, brothers, has been really good.

[\[00:37:32\]](#transcript-00-37-32-484) This is, this for me, I think, what is what transformed my experience and my Christian faith in my early 20s when I finally came to the realization that the struggle against sin is normal and that it doesn't go

[\[00:37:48\]](#transcript-00-37-48-485) away.

[\[00:37:48\]](#transcript-00-37-48-486) Like, I was trained to think that over time, you were talking about like the math equation, it's like we start out 50-50 and then it's like 60-40, you know, 70-30.

[\[00:37:58\]](#transcript-00-37-58-487) And I wish that was true, I know, but it seems like the more I know of Christ, the more aware of my sin I become.

[\[00:38:06\]](#transcript-00-38-06-488) And what I like, what really helped me when I finally embraced this idea of that I will not be relieved of the sinner side of me until glory, until I am resurrected in the new heavens, the new earth.

[\[00:38:19\]](#transcript-00-38-19-489) And that that dog hunts me down constantly.

[\[00:38:22\]](#transcript-00-38-22-490) And if I take a moment's breath and just not like, don't acknowledge that, then it's like, this is what Paul talks about.

[\[00:38:30\]](#transcript-00-38-30-491) Like, if you, if you stop resting, trusting, looking unto Jesus, the flesh will come and hunt you down.

[\[00:38:37\]](#transcript-00-38-37-492) And it's the constant hunt.

[\[00:38:39\]](#transcript-00-38-39-493) And so, every day for me, which has been helpful, is to wake up and say, There won't be a day where I won't fight my flesh.

[\[00:38:45\]](#transcript-00-38-45-494) There won't be a day where I won't struggle.

[\[00:38:47\]](#transcript-00-38-47-495) There won't be a day where I have to trust in the Lord for the temptations of my flesh.

[\[00:38:53\]](#transcript-00-38-53-496) I mean, I think it's interesting that when Jesus said, he ends the Lord's Prayer and He says, Then deliver us from evil, or in some translations, deliver us from the evil one.

[\[00:39:00\]](#transcript-00-39-00-497) Why?

[\[00:39:01\]](#transcript-00-39-01-498) Because Ephesians 6 tells us he's constantly hunting us down, he's coming after us.

[\[00:39:05\]](#transcript-00-39-05-499) He wants to, Peter, what does Peter say later on in 2 Peter?

[\[00:39:08\]](#transcript-00-39-08-500) He's like, be sober-minded, be vigilant.

[\[00:39:10\]](#transcript-00-39-10-501) Why?

[\[00:39:11\]](#transcript-00-39-11-502) Because he wants to get hold of your flesh.

[\[00:39:13\]](#transcript-00-39-13-503) He wants to enslave you once again.

[\[00:39:15\]](#transcript-00-39-15-504) Once I realized that, it helped me wake up and go, It is normal to struggle.

[\[00:39:21\]](#transcript-00-39-21-505) I need Jesus.

[\[00:39:23\]](#transcript-00-39-23-506) It doesn't, it's not a sign that your faith is deficient in some way.

[\[00:39:27\]](#transcript-00-39-27-507) You're not like a, you're not a, a, I don't know, yellow belt Christian compared to all the black belts or something.

[\[00:39:34\]](#transcript-00-39-34-508) Okay.

[\[00:39:35\]](#transcript-00-39-35-509) Yeah, one day you'll get the black belt and you'll never struggle to get it.

[\[00:39:38\]](#transcript-00-39-38-510) You'll get there.

[\[00:39:38\]](#transcript-00-39-38-511) You'll get there.

[\[00:39:39\]](#transcript-00-39-39-512) Yeah.

[\[00:39:39\]](#transcript-00-39-39-513) Exactly.

[\[00:39:40\]](#transcript-00-39-40-514) I have older gentlemen in my church and they're in my small group.

[\[00:39:43\]](#transcript-00-39-43-515) And I love it because I've got guys that are in their 20s, and then I have, I'm actually guys right out of high school.

[\[00:39:49\]](#transcript-00-39-49-516) They're 18, 19.

[\[00:39:50\]](#transcript-00-39-50-517) And then I have guys in their 60s and 70s.

[\[00:39:53\]](#transcript-00-39-53-518) And we'll talk about, you know, we'll have moments of confession and prayer and what, you know, and where are we at?

[\[00:39:58\]](#transcript-00-39-58-519) And it's interesting to see the guy's face when I've got the 65, 70-year-old over here saying, You know, I'm still trusting the Lord, you know, resting in Him, you know, fighting my flesh and temptation for lust.

[\[00:40:08\]](#transcript-00-40-08-520) And you can see they're like, It's 70.

[\[00:40:10\]](#transcript-00-40-10-521) Oh, man.

[\[00:40:11\]](#transcript-00-40-11-522) I thought eventually it would go away.

[\[00:40:13\]](#transcript-00-40-13-523) It's supposed to be better than this by now, man.

[\[00:40:16\]](#transcript-00-40-16-524) Exactly.

[\[00:40:17\]](#transcript-00-40-17-525) Not until you go in the grave, man.

[\[00:40:20\]](#transcript-00-40-20-526) This is why I love Romans 7.

[\[00:40:22\]](#transcript-00-40-22-527) You were talking about that.

[\[00:40:22\]](#transcript-00-40-22-528) Paul says, Who will save me from this body of death?

[\[00:40:26\]](#transcript-00-40-26-529) Yeah, thanks be to Christ.

[\[00:40:28\]](#transcript-00-40-28-530) Not my faithfulness, not eventually over time, you know, my own personal efforts of doing good works.

[\[00:40:35\]](#transcript-00-40-35-531) He says, Christ's will be the one who ends up delivering me.

[\[00:40:38\]](#transcript-00-40-38-532) So it's Christ that I must, one, from my salvation, and two, he sustains me by faith.

[\[00:40:46\]](#transcript-00-40-46-533) I think that's this, I'll end with this, Luke, and I'll throw it over to you for your thoughts.

[\[00:40:50\]](#transcript-00-40-50-534) The misnomer, if you guys didn't hear anything, hear this.

[\[00:40:53\]](#transcript-00-40-53-535) The misnomer of most Christianity is: put in enough work and your flesh will eventually not bother you.

[\[00:40:59\]](#transcript-00-40-59-536) And that's just a lie, it's just not true.

[\[00:41:04\]](#transcript-00-41-04-537) Yeah, I had a thought as you were saying that, and now it's slipped by me.

[\[00:41:10\]](#transcript-00-41-10-538) You're okay.

[\[00:41:12\]](#transcript-00-41-12-539) But no, this right there, if I would say anything, you and I, when we get up in the pulpit every single Sunday, we want everyone to look and find despair in their flesh and find hope in Christ.

[\[00:41:23\]](#transcript-00-41-23-540) Yeah, that doesn't mean, oh, just hold on to your sin.

[\[00:41:27\]](#transcript-00-41-27-541) No, we have a great high priest who calls us to repent.

[\[00:41:30\]](#transcript-00-41-30-542) And he says, You are my dear child.

[\[00:41:32\]](#transcript-00-41-32-543) You're a saint.

[\[00:41:33\]](#transcript-00-41-33-544) You have not been fully healed.

[\[00:41:35\]](#transcript-00-41-35-545) We have the already not yet.

[\[00:41:37\]](#transcript-00-41-37-546) We have already in Christ, but we're not yet, fully resurrected until, and this is God's design, and we don't really understand it.

[\[00:41:44\]](#transcript-00-41-44-547) that's up to Him, right?

[\[00:41:45\]](#transcript-00-41-45-548) Yeah, He's withholding His judgment on all creation.

[\[00:41:49\]](#transcript-00-41-49-549) This is the only way I can understand it: He's going to judge all of creation at once, therefore, our bodies are going to be used as vessels of mercy to express as ambassadors to those who have yet been

[\[00:42:01\]](#transcript-00-42-01-550) saved.

[\[00:42:02\]](#transcript-00-42-02-551) And so we walk by faith as he uses us to rescue others, and one day judgment will come, and we get the new body, which will be wonderful.

[\[00:42:10\]](#transcript-00-42-10-552) And I love when he says, This is when I wipe away the tear.

[\[00:42:13\]](#transcript-00-42-13-553) I wipe it away when you have a new body.

[\[00:42:16\]](#transcript-00-42-16-554) So it's totally normal, dear child, dear friend, dear brother, dear sister who's listening to this.

[\[00:42:21\]](#transcript-00-42-21-555) It's totally normal to wake up every day and say, I'm going to fight the flesh and I'm going to find joy in Christ.

[\[00:42:28\]](#transcript-00-42-28-556) That's the normal experience.

[\[00:42:30\]](#transcript-00-42-30-557) And if you want some comfort in that, you want some help in that, and you want a longer, a lot more scripture and a lot more explanations and some really great personal stories.

[\[00:42:40\]](#transcript-00-42-40-558) I would encourage you to get this book right here.

[\[00:42:42\]](#transcript-00-42-42-559) It's Saint Center, a surprising primer or primer.

[\[00:42:45\]](#transcript-00-42-45-560) How do you say it?

[\[00:42:46\]](#transcript-00-42-46-561) For the Christian.

[\[00:42:47\]](#transcript-00-42-47-562) I don't want you on the primer.

[\[00:42:50\]](#transcript-00-42-50-563) So, great book.

[\[00:42:52\]](#transcript-00-42-52-564) And I mean, look, it's forwarded by Michael Horton.

[\[00:42:56\]](#transcript-00-42-56-565) So if that doesn't motivate you to buy it, I don't know what's wrong with you.

[\[00:43:00\]](#transcript-00-43-00-566) I mean, seriously, you may not know who Luke is, but you know who Horton is, so go get it.

[\[00:43:06\]](#transcript-00-43-06-567) Do you like this advertisement?

[\[00:43:07\]](#transcript-00-43-07-568) That's good.

[\[00:43:07\]](#transcript-00-43-07-569) That's good.

[\[00:43:09\]](#transcript-00-43-09-570) 1517.org, you can buy it there.

[\[00:43:12\]](#transcript-00-43-12-571) Or if you want to get it on Amazon, you can get it on Amazon as well.

[\[00:43:15\]](#transcript-00-43-15-572) And I think if you're out of the country, it's available in Kindle, if I remember correctly.

[\[00:43:20\]](#transcript-00-43-20-573) Is that correct?

[\[00:43:20\]](#transcript-00-43-20-574) I believe so, yes.

[\[00:43:22\]](#transcript-00-43-22-575) I believe, I think I saw it on there for Kindle.

[\[00:43:24\]](#transcript-00-43-24-576) I could be wrong.

[\[00:43:25\]](#transcript-00-43-25-577) But Luke, this was great.

[\[00:43:27\]](#transcript-00-43-27-578) If people want to get in contact with you or if they want to follow you and what you're doing, I should have asked you this ahead of time.

[\[00:43:32\]](#transcript-00-43-32-579) Do you have socials or anything like that that they can be blessed by your ministry?

[\[00:43:37\]](#transcript-00-43-37-580) Yeah, I'm not super active on the socials, um, but you can find me on Facebook and Instagram, and I have a YouTube channel called Foxhole Theology, where I just do little video clips, whenever I get the spare time

[\[00:43:51\]](#transcript-00-43-51-581) between being a dad and a pastor and writing and all that good stuff.

[\[00:43:54\]](#transcript-00-43-54-582) So, um, yeah, love to get in contact with you.

[\[00:43:58\]](#transcript-00-43-58-583) Yeah, that's awesome.

[\[00:43:59\]](#transcript-00-43-59-584) Well, brother, thank you so much.

[\[00:44:01\]](#transcript-00-44-01-585) This has been refreshing to me.

[\[00:44:04\]](#transcript-00-44-04-586) Luke also participates with 1517 Ministry.

[\[00:44:07\]](#transcript-00-44-07-587) If you can go over there, I believe you have articles over there, or is it just a book that's there?

[\[00:44:12\]](#transcript-00-44-12-588) Quite a few.

[\[00:44:12\]](#transcript-00-44-12-589) Yeah.

[\[00:44:13\]](#transcript-00-44-13-590) So you can go read his articles that are over there.

[\[00:44:15\]](#transcript-00-44-15-591) I recommend 1517.

[\[00:44:17\]](#transcript-00-44-17-592) They've been a tremendous help for me.

[\[00:44:19\]](#transcript-00-44-19-593) But this is, I think this is their first book that they put out on this particular topic, if I remember correctly.

[\[00:44:26\]](#transcript-00-44-26-594) So, and it's this is what I appreciate about 1517 is unless it's Chad Bird.

[\[00:44:31\]](#transcript-00-44-31-595) Chad Bird's books are like that thick, but this is a readable book.

[\[00:44:35\]](#transcript-00-44-35-596) You can sit down, read this.

[\[00:44:36\]](#transcript-00-44-36-597) It's good for your teenagers.

[\[00:44:38\]](#transcript-00-44-38-598) Sometimes people ask me, hey, what's a good book I should get from my teenagers?

[\[00:44:42\]](#transcript-00-44-42-599) Luke has done a fantastic job of writing this on a level where younger people can read this.

[\[00:44:47\]](#transcript-00-44-47-600) You're 15, 16, 17-year-old, and they need to know this.

[\[00:44:51\]](#transcript-00-44-51-601) They're going to be programmed to think that they have to perform or there's something wrong with them, and then they end up hiding their sin.

[\[00:44:58\]](#transcript-00-44-58-602) And this is a great book.

[\[00:44:59\]](#transcript-00-44-59-603) If you're looking for like a family devotional, something like that, I would grab that.

[\[00:45:03\]](#transcript-00-45-03-604) So, well, brother, thanks for that.

[\[00:45:04\]](#transcript-00-45-04-605) And for those of you that are listening, we've got some more interviews coming.

[\[00:45:08\]](#transcript-00-45-08-606) I got a couple more book interviews coming.

[\[00:45:10\]](#transcript-00-45-10-607) And so stay tuned.

[\[00:45:12\]](#transcript-00-45-12-608) God bless you.

[\[00:45:13\]](#transcript-00-45-13-609) Hey guys, real quick.

[\[00:45:15\]](#transcript-00-45-15-610) Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:45:19\]](#transcript-00-45-19-611) So, where do you go?

[\[00:45:20\]](#transcript-00-45-20-612) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:45:24\]](#transcript-00-45-24-613) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources are there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's

[\[00:45:36\]](#transcript-00-45-36-614) there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:45:38\]](#transcript-00-45-38-615) You can go check it out.

[\[00:45:39\]](#transcript-00-45-39-616) The link is in the description below.

[\[00:45:42\]](#transcript-00-45-42-617) All of Christ for all of life

[\[00:45:46\]](#transcript-00-45-46-618) All of Christ for all of life

---

### The Prison of Self-Preservation

*Published: November 19, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-prison-of-self-preservation*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/SSf4fSO69Pw)

Do you ever feel alone, like something is just wrong with you? Many people silently wrestle with loneliness while living in a culture that celebrates self-prioritization and self-love. But instead of healing us, this only leads to deeper isolation. In this episode, Jon reviews a thought-provoking video and discusses a humble truth about why loneliness persists and how the gospel offers real liberation. Stay tuned for hope and clarity.

* Loneliness in a culture of self-prioritization
* Why self-love talk can deepen isolation
* Gospel liberation from the prison of self-preservation

* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### When In Despair... (w/ Chad Bird @ 1517)

*Published: October 29, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/when-in-despair-w-chad-bird-1517*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/EeOnKVEZ%5Fys)

Do you ever feel stuck in despair, wondering if God is still near? In this conversation, Jon Moffitt, Justin Perdue, and Chad Bird discuss how Christ meets us in our darkest moments with real comfort and sustaining grace. Recorded live at 1517’s Here We Still Stand 2025 Conference in San Diego, we explore how the Psalms, the church, and the gospel itself anchor us when life feels overwhelming. This conversation reminds weary sinners that our hope is not in ourselves but in Christ alone.

* Christ meeting us in despair with real comfort
* The Psalms, the church, and the gospel as anchors
* Live conversation with Chad Bird at Here We Still Stand 2025

* [Chad Bird](https://www.1517.org/contributors/chad-bird) — 1517
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Jesus and the Accuser (w/ Chad Bird & Ken Jones)

*Published: October 22, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/jesus-and-the-accuser-w-chad-bird-ken-jones*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/xxTZYSpdlCM)

Satan’s primary weapon against believers is accusation, especially when we fail. At our recent Law-Gospel conference, Justin Perdue preached on Jesus and the Accuser, showing how Satan targets our assurance and tempts us to trust our own righteousness or despair entirely. What follows is a panel discussion with Chad Bird, Ken Jones, Justin, and Jon Moffitt, diving deeper into how Christ defends us when Satan attacks. If you want to hear the full lecture, check out the link below. This panel discussion stands on its own and offers real hope for those battling doubt.

* Accusation as Satan’s primary weapon against believers
* How Christ defends us when assurance is attacked
* Panel with Chad Bird, Ken Jones, Justin, and Jon from the Law-Gospel conference

* [Jesus and the Accuser](https://youtu.be/jix%5FD1SoWSc)
* [Theocast Conference 2025 Lectures](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5OjtM2rVrI01Sy%5F8BbxHaqVnneV9RjtE)
* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Gospel VS Law Based Living (w/ Chad Bird & Ken Jones)

*Published: October 15, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/gospel-vs-law-based-living-w-chad-bird-ken-jones*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/Xz-w7gLYWgQ)

What truly motivates the Christian life: the gospel or the law? Too often, we confuse gospel-driven living with law-based performance. This panel discussion, recorded live at our 2025 Theocast Conference, explores how the distinction between law and gospel shapes our motivations, obedience, and joy in Christ. Featuring a post-lecture conversation with Chad Bird, Ken Jones, Justin Perdue, and Jon Moffitt, this episode unpacks what it means to live by grace. If you're tired of legalism and looking for gospel clarity, this one's for you.

* What truly motivates the Christian life: gospel or law
* Confusing gospel-driven living with law-based performance
* Grace-shaped obedience and joy with Chad Bird and Ken Jones

* [Gospel vs Law Focused Living](https://youtu.be/ZXWV7U7tZaM)
* [Theocast Conference 2025 Lectures](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5OjtM2rVrI01Sy%5F8BbxHaqVnneV9RjtE)
* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Is the Gospel Really That Simple?

*Published: October 8, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-the-gospel-really-that-simple*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/Wxe%5FsLBz9MQ)

I regularly sit across the table from people and ask them to tell me the gospel. I can see how nervous and anxious that question makes them. Maybe you have had that experience: someone asks you, "What is the gospel?" and suddenly you do not know how to respond. You worry you might not say the right thing. Often this happens because we have made the gospel far too complicated in the way we talk about it. That robs us of the peace, hope, and assurance the Lord intends for us to have. The gospel is unfathomably deep, yet it is also beautiful in its simplicity. Jon and Justin have a conversation about that today. We hope it encourages you.

* Why “What is the gospel?” makes people nervous
* How we complicate the gospel and lose peace and assurance
* Recovering the simple, sufficient good news

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:00\]](#transcript-00-00-00-1) I sit across the table from people regularly and ask them to tell me the gospel.

[\[00:00:06\]](#transcript-00-00-06-2) And I can see how nervous and anxious that question makes them.

[\[00:00:11\]](#transcript-00-00-11-3) Maybe you've had that experience.

[\[00:00:13\]](#transcript-00-00-13-4) Somebody asked you, what is the gospel?

[\[00:00:15\]](#transcript-00-00-15-5) And oh, I don't know how to respond.

[\[00:00:17\]](#transcript-00-00-17-6) I might not say the right thing.

[\[00:00:20\]](#transcript-00-00-20-7) That's because often we have made the gospel far too complicated in the way that we talk about it, and it robs us of peace and hope and assurance that the Lord means us to have.

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-8) The gospel is unfathomably deep, but it is also beautiful in its simplicity.

[\[00:00:38\]](#transcript-00-00-38-9) And Jon and I have a conversation about that today.

[\[00:00:41\]](#transcript-00-00-41-10) We hope it encourages you.

[\[00:00:42\]](#transcript-00-00-42-11) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:43\]](#transcript-00-00-43-12) Hey, guys, this is Justin.

[\[00:00:45\]](#transcript-00-00-45-13) Maybe you know that you are forgiven because of Jesus Christ, but you're wondering: what does Jesus have to do with my Christian life?

[\[00:00:54\]](#transcript-00-00-54-14) How is he involved in my sanctification, even?

[\[00:00:58\]](#transcript-00-00-58-15) Or is he concerned at all with the ways that I struggle and the way that my life goes up and down?

[\[00:01:03\]](#transcript-00-01-03-16) Is there any comfort for me in Jesus, when it comes to all of that?

[\[00:01:07\]](#transcript-00-01-07-17) Well, I've written a book called More Than Forgiven: How Being in Christ Changes Everything that deals with this topic from Romans chapter 6.

[\[00:01:16\]](#transcript-00-01-16-18) You can find this book at theocast.org.

[\[00:01:28\]](#transcript-00-01-28-19) Welcome to the 300th episode of Theocast.

[\[00:01:32\]](#transcript-00-01-32-20) You know, Dustin, we don't number them, so people won't know that, but 300th episode.

[\[00:01:37\]](#transcript-00-01-37-21) No.

[\[00:01:38\]](#transcript-00-01-38-22) 300th episode.

[\[00:01:39\]](#transcript-00-01-39-23) And starting our seventh year together.

[\[00:01:44\]](#transcript-00-01-44-24) That's a long time, brother.

[\[00:01:45\]](#transcript-00-01-45-25) I had a whole lot less gray hair when we started this thing.

[\[00:01:48\]](#transcript-00-01-48-26) Bro, I was joking.

[\[00:01:50\]](#transcript-00-01-50-27) I'm hoping this is the year of Jubilee for the podcast.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-28) Yeah.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-29) And for our lives, man.

[\[00:01:55\]](#transcript-00-01-55-30) That's right.

[\[00:01:56\]](#transcript-00-01-56-31) So, man, what a special episode for us today, just because of the Lord's kindness and keeping us together to able to do this with money, donations, technology, all of it.

[\[00:02:07\]](#transcript-00-02-07-32) We've gone, Justin and I have, in seven years, we've gone through, or six years, but we've known each other for almost seven years.

[\[00:02:13\]](#transcript-00-02-13-33) We've gone through quite a bit and uh, in both of our lives, so we're just thankful that we can sit behind the microphones once again, yeah, brother.

[\[00:02:19\]](#transcript-00-02-19-34) I mean, through many dangers, toils, and snares, we have already come.

[\[00:02:22\]](#transcript-00-02-22-35) His grace has brought us safe thus far, right?

[\[00:02:25\]](#transcript-00-02-25-36) High highs and low lows, it is, man.

[\[00:02:27\]](#transcript-00-02-27-37) Yeah, sometimes I feel like the Christian life is like the stock market, you know.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-38) Bro, there are times it crashes, baby.

[\[00:02:34\]](#transcript-00-02-34-39) Anyways, uh, your host today, just if you're new to Theocast, the first time you listen to this because of the episode, let me tell you a little bit about who we are.

[\[00:02:41\]](#transcript-00-02-41-40) Justin and I are both pastors, and our goal is to pull the clutter off of the gospel and give people hope, rest, and clarity, and focus for their Christian life.

[\[00:02:51\]](#transcript-00-02-51-41) So that's where we're at today.

[\[00:02:53\]](#transcript-00-02-53-42) And we do this from a Reformed perspective.

[\[00:02:55\]](#transcript-00-02-55-43) If you're curious about where we're coming from, we're both Reformed Baptist pastors.

[\[00:02:59\]](#transcript-00-02-59-44) Justin Perdue is the pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:03:03\]](#transcript-00-03-03-45) And I'm Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:03:04\]](#transcript-00-03-04-46) I'm the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:03:07\]](#transcript-00-03-07-47) I just had a guy visit my church on Sunday who's been listening to the podcast for two years.

[\[00:03:12\]](#transcript-00-03-12-48) And he's like, I didn't know you're in my hometown, which means he is skipping the intro.

[\[00:03:18\]](#transcript-00-03-18-49) So don't, don't skip the intro.

[\[00:03:21\]](#transcript-00-03-21-50) shame.

[\[00:03:22\]](#transcript-00-03-22-51) Yeah.

[\[00:03:22\]](#transcript-00-03-22-52) Don't do that.

[\[00:03:23\]](#transcript-00-03-23-53) Justin, it's one week past when we were together in Atlanta last week, and you and I were spending some time together doing some work for Theocast and doing some recording.

[\[00:03:34\]](#transcript-00-03-34-54) We had recorded an episode on Charlie Kirk.

[\[00:03:37\]](#transcript-00-03-37-55) If you guys didn't, and really, not just Charlie, a lot of the things going on that week, which were pretty traumatic.

[\[00:03:43\]](#transcript-00-03-43-56) The episode was really not about Charlie directly, it was more Charlie's assassination an occasion for us to talk about evil in the world.

[\[00:03:53\]](#transcript-00-03-53-57) Exactly.

[\[00:03:54\]](#transcript-00-03-54-58) And to process that as Christians.

[\[00:03:57\]](#transcript-00-03-57-59) And so that's really what the podcast is.

[\[00:03:58\]](#transcript-00-03-58-60) It's evergreen, and that it'll be a podcast people can listen to, I hope, for a long time, and it will be applicable.

[\[00:04:05\]](#transcript-00-04-05-61) Yeah.

[\[00:04:06\]](#transcript-00-04-06-62) So the reason I mentioned that is that this is our 300th episode.

[\[00:04:10\]](#transcript-00-04-10-63) Justin and I, as pastors, are coming out of Sunday preaching on that and back in the office and thinking through all of these things.

[\[00:04:18\]](#transcript-00-04-18-64) And one of the thoughts we had about it being our 300th episode.

[\[00:04:22\]](#transcript-00-04-22-65) And what we love about Theocast is: you know, there's, by the way, if you want to learn more about Theocast, I should say, before we jump into the episode, theocast.org, there's so much there.

[\[00:04:32\]](#transcript-00-04-32-66) Books that Justin have written, I've written.

[\[00:04:35\]](#transcript-00-04-35-67) There's a community that's got 2,500 people in it.

[\[00:04:38\]](#transcript-00-04-38-68) It's off the internet.

[\[00:04:39\]](#transcript-00-04-39-69) Sorry, it's off social media.

[\[00:04:40\]](#transcript-00-04-40-70) It's our own platform.

[\[00:04:41\]](#transcript-00-04-41-71) It's off the group.

[\[00:04:42\]](#transcript-00-04-42-72) We've got other books.

[\[00:04:44\]](#transcript-00-04-44-73) We've got mugs.

[\[00:04:44\]](#transcript-00-04-44-74) We've got shirts and hats and you know, stickers, whatever, whatever, whatever make yourself available of it.

[\[00:04:50\]](#transcript-00-04-50-75) Um, so Justin, this episode is a big deal.

[\[00:04:54\]](#transcript-00-04-54-76) We always say pulling the clutter off the gospel, and so today, instead of pulling the clutter off, we're going to explain in its simplest form what is the gospel and why that matters.

[\[00:05:07\]](#transcript-00-05-07-77) And so I don't want to steal your thunder.

[\[00:05:08\]](#transcript-00-05-08-78) So I'm going to throw it over to you, brother.

[\[00:05:10\]](#transcript-00-05-10-79) 300th episode.

[\[00:05:11\]](#transcript-00-05-11-80) Let's do what Theocast is known for.

[\[00:05:13\]](#transcript-00-05-13-81) Let's talk about Jesus and His sufficiency for sinners.

[\[00:05:17\]](#transcript-00-05-17-82) Yeah, amen to all that.

[\[00:05:19\]](#transcript-00-05-19-83) And we are going to talk about the sufficiency of Jesus today for sure.

[\[00:05:23\]](#transcript-00-05-23-84) I'm, I know we're going to get into the things that he has done for us.

[\[00:05:28\]](#transcript-00-05-28-85) How could we not?

[\[00:05:29\]](#transcript-00-05-29-86) But really, the crux of this conversation, what we want to get at is the beauty and the simplicity more than anything else of the gospel.

[\[00:05:41\]](#transcript-00-05-41-87) That there are so many things, man, that we can contemplate, talk about, study, meditate upon.

[\[00:05:47\]](#transcript-00-05-47-88) I mean, we can plumb the depths of the gospel for the rest of our lives and never hit the bottom.

[\[00:05:52\]](#transcript-00-05-52-89) And at the same time, it is so simple that the educated and uneducated children, you know, they can understand it.

[\[00:06:01\]](#transcript-00-06-01-90) It is not complicated message.

[\[00:06:04\]](#transcript-00-06-04-91) And why this matters to me, man, I'm thinking about not only my own life, yours.

[\[00:06:11\]](#transcript-00-06-11-92) We're thinking about people in our churches.

[\[00:06:12\]](#transcript-00-06-12-93) We're thinking about theocast listeners that we've met and engaged with.

[\[00:06:15\]](#transcript-00-06-15-94) We're thinking about the listener out there that we haven't met, but we can understand enough of people's experiences that there's a lot of doubt, there's a lot of questions.

[\[00:06:24\]](#transcript-00-06-24-95) There are ways that we are assaulted by the evil one, there are ways that our consciences and our own hearts condemn us sometimes.

[\[00:06:30\]](#transcript-00-06-30-96) And those condemnations and those accusations take different forms.

[\[00:06:34\]](#transcript-00-06-34-97) And sometimes people question the legitimacy of their standing before the Lord, or they don't have peace with God, or they lose hope because they start to wrestle with, like, well, have I really understood enough?

[\[00:06:50\]](#transcript-00-06-50-98) Like, do it, is my grasp of doctrine, is my grasp of the gospel sufficient?

[\[00:06:56\]](#transcript-00-06-56-99) You know, well, and it gets, this even gets into like, well, I don't, you know, I think I meant to be a Christian when I was younger, but maybe I wasn't even really saved.

[\[00:07:06\]](#transcript-00-07-06-100) I don't know, you know, and we start to just question all these things because sometimes it comes across from well-intentioned people I trust, sincere people I trust, that if you don't have a certain level of understanding.

[\[00:07:18\]](#transcript-00-07-18-101) and if you can't articulate things in a particular way, then you probably should question your legitimacy.

[\[00:07:25\]](#transcript-00-07-25-102) And I think it's beautiful that we're recording this on the 300th episode.

[\[00:07:30\]](#transcript-00-07-30-103) We'll talk about the gospel and what it is.

[\[00:07:32\]](#transcript-00-07-32-104) Love doing that.

[\[00:07:34\]](#transcript-00-07-34-105) But then want to encourage all of you out there that the simplicity of the gospel means that really this is the heart of the matter.

[\[00:07:44\]](#transcript-00-07-44-106) Are you trusting in Christ

[\[00:07:47\]](#transcript-00-07-47-107) or something else?

[\[00:07:48\]](#transcript-00-07-48-108) Yes.

[\[00:07:49\]](#transcript-00-07-49-109) The gospel is as simple as Jesus for you, Jesus for you in your place.

[\[00:07:58\]](#transcript-00-07-58-110) It's that simple.

[\[00:07:59\]](#transcript-00-07-59-111) That you know, you don't know everything.

[\[00:08:02\]](#transcript-00-08-02-112) There's a lot you don't understand, but you know enough that you know this.

[\[00:08:06\]](#transcript-00-08-06-113) If I am going to live with God forever, and if I'm going to stand before the Lord, and it's going to go well for me, and I'm going to have peace and joy forevermore in His presence, the only

[\[00:08:17\]](#transcript-00-08-17-114) way that that's going to happen is because of Jesus Christ and what He's done for me.

[\[00:08:23\]](#transcript-00-08-23-115) Even if I can't articulate every aspect of that, even if I don't have a full grasp of my sin and the depth of my depravity and all these kinds of things, I know I need Jesus.

[\[00:08:34\]](#transcript-00-08-34-116) And I know that He came for me, and that whatever He did to save sinners, he did it for me.

[\[00:08:41\]](#transcript-00-08-41-117) And so it's about him in my place, standing for me.

[\[00:08:45\]](#transcript-00-08-45-118) And that's the simplicity of the gospel that the wise and the simple, the educated and the uneducated can all understand and be reconciled to God and have peace and joy and hope in our hearts now and forevermore.

[\[00:08:58\]](#transcript-00-08-58-119) That's right.

[\[00:08:59\]](#transcript-00-08-59-120) Yeah, this is such an important conversation because when we cannot clarify the simplicity in its seed form, it's the current The curve

[\[00:09:11\]](#transcript-00-09-11-121) baseline of like you cannot go any lower than this.

[\[00:09:14\]](#transcript-00-09-14-122) Like, if you go any lower than this, you do not have the gospel.

[\[00:09:17\]](#transcript-00-09-17-123) And the reason I say that, it's not that there's levels to the gospel, right?

[\[00:09:23\]](#transcript-00-09-23-124) There is the gospel in its simplest form, and then there is the fullness of the gospel.

[\[00:09:28\]](#transcript-00-09-28-125) And that's why Paul even says that he was commissioned to reveal the mystery of Christ or the fullness of Christ, right?

[\[00:09:36\]](#transcript-00-09-36-126) Meaning that there is what was promised that they believed in the old, the gospel was preached to Abraham and he was justified.

[\[00:09:45\]](#transcript-00-09-45-127) Well, dude, Abraham had no idea that the gospel included the name Jesus, that he was going to die and rise again, that he was going to be born of a virgin.

[\[00:09:57\]](#transcript-00-09-57-128) None of that had been prophesied yet.

[\[00:09:59\]](#transcript-00-09-59-129) Those prophecies had not come.

[\[00:10:01\]](#transcript-00-10-01-130) So it wasn't like the angel of the Lord came and revealed all these secrets to Abraham.

[\[00:10:07\]](#transcript-00-10-07-131) He didn't know it.

[\[00:10:07\]](#transcript-00-10-07-132) This is why it was called the mystery of Christ, right?

[\[00:10:10\]](#transcript-00-10-10-133) What they were putting their faith in is God, my Redeemer.

[\[00:10:14\]](#transcript-00-10-14-134) Like, God's going to redeem me.

[\[00:10:16\]](#transcript-00-10-16-135) And I believe that.

[\[00:10:17\]](#transcript-00-10-17-136) God is going to save me out of Adam's failure.

[\[00:10:20\]](#transcript-00-10-20-137) Like, I am a sinner.

[\[00:10:22\]](#transcript-00-10-22-138) I cannot fix myself, and God will save me.

[\[00:10:25\]](#transcript-00-10-25-139) Right.

[\[00:10:25\]](#transcript-00-10-25-140) And we're not given detail, like you said, Paul, regarding what was preached to Abraham, but Paul in Galatians, most pointedly, picks up on Genesis 12:3, where the Lord tells Abraham that through his offspring, the nations, like the nations

[\[00:10:40\]](#transcript-00-10-40-141) will be saved, right?

[\[00:10:42\]](#transcript-00-10-42-142) And Paul picks up on that and says the gospel was preached to Abraham.

[\[00:10:46\]](#transcript-00-10-46-143) That's right.

[\[00:10:46\]](#transcript-00-10-46-144) And again, we don't know all the detail, like you said, and we don't even need to speculate because we know this much: that Jesus in John 8, for example, talks about Abraham and says that Abraham rejoiced to see

[\[00:10:58\]](#transcript-00-10-58-145) my day.

[\[00:10:59\]](#transcript-00-10-59-146) So, Abraham, what did Abraham believe?

[\[00:11:02\]](#transcript-00-11-02-147) Messiah was coming.

[\[00:11:03\]](#transcript-00-11-03-148) He believed in Messiah.

[\[00:11:04\]](#transcript-00-11-04-149) He trusted that there was one coming who was going to save him and save all of God's people.

[\[00:11:10\]](#transcript-00-11-10-150) And that justified him, yes, and that is how he is justified by faith.

[\[00:11:15\]](#transcript-00-11-15-151) He trusts the promises of God realized in Messiah, and he doesn't have a full understanding.

[\[00:11:22\]](#transcript-00-11-22-152) I cannot imagine that he did, I don't think the prophets did.

[\[00:11:25\]](#transcript-00-11-25-153) I mean, the New Testament bears that out.

[\[00:11:27\]](#transcript-00-11-27-154) Yeah, they said they longed to look into it, but they didn't fully understand it.

[\[00:11:31\]](#transcript-00-11-31-155) Correct.

[\[00:11:31\]](#transcript-00-11-31-156) And they're they're searching through they're searching the scriptures to try to understand who this Messiah is going to be and when he would come and what he, you know, and to fully understand what he's doing.

[\[00:11:43\]](#transcript-00-11-43-157) Go ahead.

[\[00:11:44\]](#transcript-00-11-44-158) Not that the gospel was confusing.

[\[00:11:45\]](#transcript-00-11-45-159) There's a difference between you are saved by faith in the Messiah.

[\[00:11:49\]](#transcript-00-11-49-160) You're saved that God will save you through His Messiah.

[\[00:11:52\]](#transcript-00-11-52-161) That's what you're saved in.

[\[00:11:53\]](#transcript-00-11-53-162) And then, as we are on the other side of it, we get the beauty of looking back in its still simplest form, telling children you are saved by Jesus Christ.

[\[00:12:03\]](#transcript-00-12-03-163) So we don't say Messiah as if he's nameless, but we say Jesus Christ, which is why there was a confusion.

[\[00:12:09\]](#transcript-00-12-09-164) And even I will just say this, not part of the notes, but why in Judaism there was such a stark transition because it was like, no, he's come, he's here.

[\[00:12:18\]](#transcript-00-12-18-165) And if you reject Jesus, this is why Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life.

[\[00:12:22\]](#transcript-00-12-22-166) No man can come to the Father unless you come through me.

[\[00:12:24\]](#transcript-00-12-24-167) I'm the one the prophets prophesied with from.

[\[00:12:26\]](#transcript-00-12-26-168) So you've got to believe in me.

[\[00:12:28\]](#transcript-00-12-28-169) And so that's where we say to be saved now, you have to believe in Jesus because he is the fulfilled promise that they were putting their faith in.

[\[00:12:38\]](#transcript-00-12-38-170) And even in the old covenant era, because when Jesus shows up on the scene, I'm agreeing with you, and you're going to agree with what I'm about to say.

[\[00:12:44\]](#transcript-00-12-44-171) Jesus shows up on the scene and tells a Jewish audience, most pointedly, the Pharisees who are experts on the law, experts on the scriptures, that you search the scriptures thinking that in them you have eternal life, but it

[\[00:12:57\]](#transcript-00-12-57-172) is they that bear witness about me.

[\[00:12:59\]](#transcript-00-12-59-173) When he's saying that, he's saying that all of the Old Testament, because that's the scriptures that existed at the time, the Old Testament bears witness about the Christ.

[\[00:13:08\]](#transcript-00-13-08-174) The Old Testament bears witness about Messiah, and I'm him.

[\[00:13:12\]](#transcript-00-13-12-175) That's what he's saying.

[\[00:13:13\]](#transcript-00-13-13-176) So, again, like you're saying, it's not that it's complicated, it's that Jesus is shot through all of the Bible, and we're able now to name him.

[\[00:13:23\]](#transcript-00-13-23-177) You shall call his name Jesus because he will save his people from their sins.

[\[00:13:28\]](#transcript-00-13-28-178) We can name him.

[\[00:13:29\]](#transcript-00-13-29-179) We no longer just, it's not the servant of the Lord, it's not Messiah in some general terms.

[\[00:13:35\]](#transcript-00-13-35-180) It's Jesus of Nazareth, is all that, and he is the Messiah.

[\[00:13:39\]](#transcript-00-13-39-181) And so we're clear on that part, that part.

[\[00:13:41\]](#transcript-00-13-41-182) But the main thing is, we encourage everybody, that to be a Christian is to hope in Christ at the end of the day.

[\[00:13:50\]](#transcript-00-13-50-183) That's right.

[\[00:13:50\]](#transcript-00-13-50-184) It's to believe that He has done it.

[\[00:13:53\]](#transcript-00-13-53-185) Yeah, and Christ, Christ, just to jump in, Christ in the Old Testament is Messiah.

[\[00:13:58\]](#transcript-00-13-58-186) That's what Jesus Christ.

[\[00:13:59\]](#transcript-00-13-59-187) Christ isn't his last name.

[\[00:14:01\]](#transcript-00-14-01-188) No, that's a title.

[\[00:14:03\]](#transcript-00-14-03-189) Right.

[\[00:14:03\]](#transcript-00-14-03-190) Christopher.

[\[00:14:04\]](#transcript-00-14-04-191) Old Testament.

[\[00:14:05\]](#transcript-00-14-05-192) Yeah.

[\[00:14:05\]](#transcript-00-14-05-193) Old Testament believed in Christ.

[\[00:14:07\]](#transcript-00-14-07-194) We believe in Christ, and Christ is Jesus.

[\[00:14:11\]](#transcript-00-14-11-195) Right.

[\[00:14:11\]](#transcript-00-14-11-196) Messiah, Jesus.

[\[00:14:13\]](#transcript-00-14-13-197) Yeah.

[\[00:14:13\]](#transcript-00-14-13-198) Exactly.

[\[00:14:14\]](#transcript-00-14-14-199) Christ is the reason why, yeah, this is so important because I want people to understand.

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-200) Yeah, like the simplicity of the faith of the Old Testament believer carries true today, even though we have the fullness of Christ, the simplicity is so important for us to make sure that we maintain because the New Testament

[\[00:14:31\]](#transcript-00-14-31-201) maintains it.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-202) Totally.

[\[00:14:33\]](#transcript-00-14-33-203) Totally.

[\[00:14:34\]](#transcript-00-14-34-204) And we believe rightly that all of the people of God from all time are saved the same way.

[\[00:14:40\]](#transcript-00-14-40-205) And so the Old Testament, Old Covenant saints were trusting the promises that we trust.

[\[00:14:49\]](#transcript-00-14-49-206) Did they have all the detail and the clarity that we had?

[\[00:14:52\]](#transcript-00-14-52-207) No.

[\[00:14:52\]](#transcript-00-14-52-208) But it was revealed to them in ways that were adequate and sufficient through a number of different institutions and types and shadows and the promises that God made to them directly.

[\[00:15:02\]](#transcript-00-15-02-209) It's revealed there, but they're believing in a person.

[\[00:15:07\]](#transcript-00-15-07-210) That's right.

[\[00:15:08\]](#transcript-00-15-08-211) And they're trusting in him and what he's done for them.

[\[00:15:12\]](#transcript-00-15-12-212) It's not that they do something, it's not that they even contribute something.

[\[00:15:18\]](#transcript-00-15-18-213) It's that we are trusting in God's anointed one, the one that God has sent into the world to do everything that Adam failed to do and to pay for all of the ways that we have failed.

[\[00:15:34\]](#transcript-00-15-34-214) The death and the ruin and the sin and the misery that Adam has plunged us into, that we have doubled down upon, and we would have done the same thing Adam did, all that ruin.

[\[00:15:43\]](#transcript-00-15-43-215) The Messiah, the anointed one of God, came into the world to rescue us from that, and only he could do it.

[\[00:15:49\]](#transcript-00-15-49-216) That's right.

[\[00:15:50\]](#transcript-00-15-50-217) And so we put all our hope in him and we put all of our trust in him.

[\[00:15:53\]](#transcript-00-15-53-218) That's what it is to be a Christian at the most basic level.

[\[00:15:56\]](#transcript-00-15-56-219) So, Justin, I want to, if you're good, I want to.

[\[00:16:00\]](#transcript-00-16-00-220) There's two more things that I think I'd love to cover.

[\[00:16:02\]](#transcript-00-16-02-221) We talked about this a little bit beforehand, but I'd like for us to talk a little bit about kind of the progression of someone's faith.

[\[00:16:08\]](#transcript-00-16-08-222) Sure.

[\[00:16:10\]](#transcript-00-16-10-223) How does one progress?

[\[00:16:11\]](#transcript-00-16-11-224) And then, can someone on the second side of that?

[\[00:16:14\]](#transcript-00-16-14-225) Can someone come to faith and there actually be a moment where, I'll put it this way: an Ephesians 4 moment.

[\[00:16:21\]](#transcript-00-16-21-226) So we'll get to that later.

[\[00:16:22\]](#transcript-00-16-22-227) yeah.

[\[00:16:23\]](#transcript-00-16-23-228) So I think it's important for people to understand in that

[\[00:16:27\]](#transcript-00-16-27-229) as someone is being discipled in Christ, I think that there is the baseline, like if I think about my children, your children, or anyone who was saved as a little child, their faith is so, like, it's so little.

[\[00:16:42\]](#transcript-00-16-42-230) I mean, it's like, what I mean by faith, like, their knowledge of what they believe in is so little, and yet it's powerful enough to save anyone.

[\[00:16:51\]](#transcript-00-16-51-231) That's the thing about it.

[\[00:16:52\]](#transcript-00-16-52-232) It's so amazing.

[\[00:16:54\]](#transcript-00-16-54-233) So, I just want to start with that for a moment.

[\[00:16:56\]](#transcript-00-16-56-234) Like, if you're a 97-year-old person or a 70-year-old person, your faith in Christ, it's not your faith that saves you.

[\[00:17:05\]](#transcript-00-17-05-235) You have to remember this: it's the power of the gospel, and the gospel is the good news that Jesus saves, right?

[\[00:17:11\]](#transcript-00-17-11-236) It's Jesus that saves, and you're putting your faith in the object and the power of Jesus.

[\[00:17:16\]](#transcript-00-17-16-237) So remember, when you stand on judgment day and God looks upon you and says, My dear child, how do you stand?

[\[00:17:24\]](#transcript-00-17-24-238) You either say, I stand in Jesus, or you stand in yourself.

[\[00:17:28\]](#transcript-00-17-28-239) It's as simple as that.

[\[00:17:30\]](#transcript-00-17-30-240) It's as simple as that.

[\[00:17:32\]](#transcript-00-17-32-241) So I believe Jesus is enough.

[\[00:17:34\]](#transcript-00-17-34-242) Like that's that, that's where we're at.

[\[00:17:36\]](#transcript-00-17-36-243) Now, that being said, throughout time, this is why the church is obligated to disciple and train and raise each other up so that we don't fall off into doctrines of heresy and into false teachings, and we get entangled

[\[00:17:51\]](#transcript-00-17-51-244) because it does and can happen.

[\[00:17:53\]](#transcript-00-17-53-245) That means your understanding of the gospel today.

[\[00:17:57\]](#transcript-00-17-57-246) Let's say, I'll just use me as an example, Justin.

[\[00:18:00\]](#transcript-00-18-00-247) I was raised in a great home.

[\[00:18:01\]](#transcript-00-18-01-248) My dad was an amazing minister, but he was raised as an independent Baptist.

[\[00:18:06\]](#transcript-00-18-06-249) And so we had, uh, we did not believe in the doctrines of grace or things like the ordinary means of grace and things like that.

[\[00:18:13\]](#transcript-00-18-13-250) But by the time I was 12 years old, I was a very assured of my salvation based upon what Christ had done for me.

[\[00:18:20\]](#transcript-00-18-20-251) That part I was pretty convinced of, and I had a pretty good working understanding of the Trinity, but very legalistic in my understanding.

[\[00:18:29\]](#transcript-00-18-29-252) So I didn't, I struggled a lot to think that God was happy with me, which is very different from assurance.

[\[00:18:35\]](#transcript-00-18-35-253) I just didn't think He was happy with me.

[\[00:18:37\]](#transcript-00-18-37-254) I remember when I discovered Calvinism and the means of grace, it was, it felt like it was almost a second birth.

[\[00:18:47\]](#transcript-00-18-47-255) It was more of an awakening.

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-256) And I would say it this way: God opened my heart to realities that were so refreshing and life-giving that it had that feeling.

[\[00:18:58\]](#transcript-00-18-58-257) And I know some people think to themselves when they discover the assurance of their salvation or the doctrines of grace or even covenant theology that there's this awakening, and like that's their salvation moment.

[\[00:19:09\]](#transcript-00-19-09-258) And I understand that feeling, but I think it's important to understand that deep theology does not equate your true conversion.

[\[00:19:17\]](#transcript-00-19-17-259) No, totally, man.

[\[00:19:18\]](#transcript-00-19-18-260) I mean, a number of us have had these experiences.

[\[00:19:22\]](#transcript-00-19-22-261) I think there are probably a number of listeners out there that would feel like whether it's doctrines of grace, like you said, or even the law and gospel distinction, something we talk about a lot on this podcast.

[\[00:19:33\]](#transcript-00-19-33-262) I know a lot of people are like, man, that was like being born again.

[\[00:19:38\]](#transcript-00-19-38-263) It was such a, I've come to a deeper, like, just fresh, you know, robust understanding.

[\[00:19:46\]](#transcript-00-19-46-264) Like, I've grown.

[\[00:19:48\]](#transcript-00-19-48-265) This is deeper, it's fresher, it's all those things.

[\[00:19:51\]](#transcript-00-19-51-266) And I am encouraged and invigorated and renewed.

[\[00:19:54\]](#transcript-00-19-54-267) It's great.

[\[00:19:55\]](#transcript-00-19-55-268) But you're right.

[\[00:19:57\]](#transcript-00-19-57-269) That does not mean that what had happened for you prior was illegitimate or was insufficient.

[\[00:20:03\]](#transcript-00-20-03-270) Or, oh, yeah, so absolutely, we learn and we grow.

[\[00:20:07\]](#transcript-00-20-07-271) We're discipled in the faith.

[\[00:20:09\]](#transcript-00-20-09-272) We're taught the doctrines of the faith so that we can discern truth from error, all of that kind of stuff.

[\[00:20:13\]](#transcript-00-20-13-273) That's important that we do that.

[\[00:20:15\]](#transcript-00-20-15-274) And really, I think for me, I can speak for myself personally, not that I think you're going to disagree at all.

[\[00:20:21\]](#transcript-00-20-21-275) You and I believe that we preach the gospel, certainly to the unbelievers, but we preach the gospel to the saints all the time, every week.

[\[00:20:30\]](#transcript-00-20-30-276) When we get in the pulpit, we're going to hold Jesus Christ out to everybody who's there.

[\[00:20:34\]](#transcript-00-20-34-277) And we believe that that is what people most need to hear.

[\[00:20:38\]](#transcript-00-20-38-278) This is about hope.

[\[00:20:40\]](#transcript-00-20-40-279) And it's about hoping in the Lord Jesus Christ that even though we don't now see Him, we love Him, and even though we don't see Him right now, we believe in Him.

[\[00:20:47\]](#transcript-00-20-47-280) And we have an unshakable hope in inheritance can't be taken away from us in Christ.

[\[00:20:53\]](#transcript-00-20-53-281) And so, what do we want to do when we preach the gospel?

[\[00:20:56\]](#transcript-00-20-56-282) We're trying to more and more ground all of us in Christ for us.

[\[00:21:02\]](#transcript-00-21-02-283) So, we never go beyond the simplicity of what we've already articulated.

[\[00:21:08\]](#transcript-00-21-08-284) Christ for us is the good news.

[\[00:21:10\]](#transcript-00-21-10-285) But when we preach doctrinally and we hold Christ out, what are we trying to help people better understand?

[\[00:21:16\]](#transcript-00-21-16-286) Well, we want you to see more of the depth and the wonder of everything he's done for you.

[\[00:21:22\]](#transcript-00-21-22-287) We want you to see even more of his heart and the ways that he loves you and how he is better than you maybe even first knew.

[\[00:21:30\]](#transcript-00-21-30-288) It doesn't mean that you're not his.

[\[00:21:31\]](#transcript-00-21-31-289) It just means you're going to grow continually in your understanding of the love and the sufficiency of your savior in your place.

[\[00:21:39\]](#transcript-00-21-39-290) And so that's why it's important to talk about, well, you have sin, and that means that you deserve judgment.

[\[00:21:50\]](#transcript-00-21-50-291) And we want to talk about all the ways that Jesus took your sin from you and died for it.

[\[00:21:57\]](#transcript-00-21-57-292) And this idea, you know, substitution and all these different things, we want to talk about that.

[\[00:22:01\]](#transcript-00-22-01-293) Then, when it comes to the fact that God's holy law requires righteousness and you ain't got any.

[\[00:22:07\]](#transcript-00-22-07-294) And so, how would you then come to have it?

[\[00:22:10\]](#transcript-00-22-10-295) Well, we can talk about Jesus and His life and how He fulfilled the law, He He did it for you, and we want you to understand that better.

[\[00:22:18\]](#transcript-00-22-18-296) The reason we want you to understand all these things better is so that you never confuse the categories and then end up buying into the lie that you need to be good enough somehow.

[\[00:22:29\]](#transcript-00-22-29-297) You knew it, everybody does.

[\[00:22:31\]](#transcript-00-22-31-298) You knew on the front end, when everybody comes to faith in Christ, man, we know I can't be good enough.

[\[00:22:37\]](#transcript-00-22-37-299) This is why I need him.

[\[00:22:39\]](#transcript-00-22-39-300) And then all we're trying to do, even in the tagline of this podcast we use sometimes, taking the clutter off the gospel.

[\[00:22:44\]](#transcript-00-22-44-301) Why are we doing that?

[\[00:22:46\]](#transcript-00-22-46-302) So that we don't ever get it twisted to think that I got to be good enough on the back end of this thing.

[\[00:22:50\]](#transcript-00-22-50-303) That's right.

[\[00:22:51\]](#transcript-00-22-51-304) Right?

[\[00:22:52\]](#transcript-00-22-52-305) It's like, and you said, I'm not even more, is my faith strong enough?

[\[00:22:55\]](#transcript-00-22-55-306) Well, I don't even know, I don't even know how to answer that question on the one hand, because our faith could always be stronger, but how much faith is enough?

[\[00:23:02\]](#transcript-00-23-02-307) Any, because any faith we have is a gift of God, and it's not about the quality or the strength of our faith, it's the option for our faith.

[\[00:23:08\]](#transcript-00-23-08-308) I digress.

[\[00:23:09\]](#transcript-00-23-09-309) But the point is, even the doctrinal pieces, John, it's not about going on to something new.

[\[00:23:14\]](#transcript-00-23-14-310) It's about grounding us more deeply in Christ for us.

[\[00:23:18\]](#transcript-00-23-18-311) If you're new to theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

[\[00:23:21\]](#transcript-00-23-21-312) It's called pietism.

[\[00:23:22\]](#transcript-00-23-22-313) Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy.

[\[00:23:28\]](#transcript-00-23-28-314) That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:23:34\]](#transcript-00-23-34-315) It's dread versus joy, really.

[\[00:23:37\]](#transcript-00-23-37-316) That's pietism.

[\[00:23:38\]](#transcript-00-23-38-317) Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

[\[00:23:46\]](#transcript-00-23-46-318) And we have a little book for you.

[\[00:23:47\]](#transcript-00-23-47-319) It's free.

[\[00:23:48\]](#transcript-00-23-48-320) We want you to download it, and we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism, Reformed theology, really.

[\[00:23:55\]](#transcript-00-23-55-321) How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when Jesus says, Come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

[\[00:24:03\]](#transcript-00-24-03-322) You can download it at our website, just go to theocast.org.

[\[00:24:06\]](#transcript-00-24-06-323) And the reason why we want to make this distinction is that, unfortunately, in the modern day, and this is true, even like the confusion of the Merrow Man, when we're going back to some of these debates, where we

[\[00:24:19\]](#transcript-00-24-19-324) start We start barrow controversy, 18th cented Church of Scotland.

[\[00:24:22\]](#transcript-00-24-22-325) Go, John.

[\[00:24:22\]](#transcript-00-24-22-326) That's right.

[\[00:24:23\]](#transcript-00-24-23-327) Yeah, The Whole Christ by Sinclair Ferguson is a great book to read.

[\[00:24:26\]](#transcript-00-24-26-328) Encourage you to right.

[\[00:24:27\]](#transcript-00-24-27-329) What we start doing is we start manipulating and changing, or I would say, adding to the gospel where the good news is now a transaction.

[\[00:24:36\]](#transcript-00-24-36-330) It's not transactional, right?

[\[00:24:38\]](#transcript-00-24-38-331) So, and this is why we have to keep it in its simplest form.

[\[00:24:41\]](#transcript-00-24-41-332) Like, if a child can understand the gospel according to Jesus, then you need to understand that what that means.

[\[00:24:47\]](#transcript-00-24-47-333) In its simplest form, that it requires us to trust in the sufficiency of Christ, the Messiah who can what?

[\[00:24:55\]](#transcript-00-24-55-334) Save me from my disobedience is what we tell children: like you are disobedient before the Lord, and that means God requires you to be perfect.

[\[00:25:03\]](#transcript-00-25-03-335) Do you think you can try?

[\[00:25:04\]](#transcript-00-25-04-336) Do you want to try to do that?

[\[00:25:05\]](#transcript-00-25-05-337) And they're going to tell you, sure, maybe, but then you're like, okay, like you have to love him and nothing else.

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-338) Do you think you can do that?

[\[00:25:12\]](#transcript-00-25-12-339) And you're like, well, no.

[\[00:25:12\]](#transcript-00-25-12-340) I was like, okay, you don't want to try and obey him.

[\[00:25:15\]](#transcript-00-25-15-341) Do you know someone who did for you?

[\[00:25:17\]](#transcript-00-25-17-342) And not only that, but died so that you don't have to die, not physically, but spiritually.

[\[00:25:23\]](#transcript-00-25-23-343) That's Jesus.

[\[00:25:24\]](#transcript-00-25-24-344) Do you want that for yourself?

[\[00:25:26\]](#transcript-00-25-26-345) Yes, I want that.

[\[00:25:27\]](#transcript-00-25-27-346) And that's as simple as it needs to be.

[\[00:25:30\]](#transcript-00-25-30-347) And as if you feel like, no, there has to be more to it, Justin.

[\[00:25:34\]](#transcript-00-25-34-348) I'm going to speak for the both of us here.

[\[00:25:36\]](#transcript-00-25-36-349) And I say this with as much compassion as I can.

[\[00:25:39\]](#transcript-00-25-39-350) That's exactly what Satan wants you to think.

[\[00:25:42\]](#transcript-00-25-42-351) He wants you to think that the gospel is outside of the simplicity of a child.

[\[00:25:48\]](#transcript-00-25-48-352) He wants to complicate it so much so that your faith begins to go off of Christ and somehow on you and your intellect and your knowledge.

[\[00:25:59\]](#transcript-00-25-59-353) And let me tell you right now, we're going to get into this here in a second, but there's a lot of people who come to Christ and they really are a believer, and then Satan gets a hold of

[\[00:26:10\]](#transcript-00-26-10-354) them and gets them distracted off, and they get off into all kinds of weird churches, and/or they're not in a church, and they're not been discipled, they're not been cared for, they're not growing.

[\[00:26:19\]](#transcript-00-26-19-355) Paul rebukes churches for even being weak and anemic, like you should have been farther along than you are now.

[\[00:26:25\]](#transcript-00-26-25-356) He doesn't question their theology.

[\[00:26:27\]](#transcript-00-26-27-357) He's like, you should have been trained.

[\[00:26:29\]](#transcript-00-26-29-358) Unfortunately, you weren't, right?

[\[00:26:32\]](#transcript-00-26-32-359) No, amen to that.

[\[00:26:33\]](#transcript-00-26-33-360) And even I'm thinking about the letters to the seven churches in Revelation when Jesus rebukes, for example, the church in Ephesus, you've lost your first love.

[\[00:26:40\]](#transcript-00-26-40-361) That's right.

[\[00:26:41\]](#transcript-00-26-41-362) What does that mean?

[\[00:26:42\]](#transcript-00-26-42-363) It means you've left what we're talking about.

[\[00:26:44\]](#transcript-00-26-44-364) That's right.

[\[00:26:45\]](#transcript-00-26-45-365) You've left the beauty and the simplicity, this kernel of the good news.

[\[00:26:50\]](#transcript-00-26-50-366) You've left it.

[\[00:26:50\]](#transcript-00-26-50-367) Like you've moved on from that.

[\[00:26:52\]](#transcript-00-26-52-368) And I think that is an indictment on many.

[\[00:26:55\]](#transcript-00-26-55-369) I say this with humility, but with all sincerity, I think that's an indictment on many churches through the centuries, including in our own day.

[\[00:27:01\]](#transcript-00-27-01-370) That like what you just said is true.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-371) There's this instinct we have

[\[00:27:06\]](#transcript-00-27-06-372) individually as Christians, and I think the church sometimes doubles down on this: that, well, yeah, we got the gospel.

[\[00:27:12\]](#transcript-00-27-12-373) And

[\[00:27:13\]](#transcript-00-27-13-374) now we really need to move on to these other things.

[\[00:27:16\]](#transcript-00-27-16-375) Or if we're going to be gospel people, now like we get overly obsessed with particulars and how it's articulated and all of that.

[\[00:27:23\]](#transcript-00-27-23-376) Yeah, we're getting our eyes off of the main thing.

[\[00:27:26\]](#transcript-00-27-26-377) That's right.

[\[00:27:26\]](#transcript-00-27-26-378) And yeah, you can go.

[\[00:27:28\]](#transcript-00-27-28-379) And what I was trying to talk about earlier, I think, is really important that you can go really deep and yet keep it so simple.

[\[00:27:36\]](#transcript-00-27-36-380) That's the goal.

[\[00:27:37\]](#transcript-00-27-37-381) I think it's impossible to go deep unless you start with simple.

[\[00:27:40\]](#transcript-00-27-40-382) Yeah, but I'm even saying in the depth, it can be simple.

[\[00:27:43\]](#transcript-00-27-43-383) Because, you know, even like as an example, conversation with my kids last night, I asked my 10-year-old daughter, we were talking about baptism, and I said, you know, baptism is about our union with Jesus.

[\[00:27:56\]](#transcript-00-27-56-384) I mean, I was just saying a few things, but I said, you know, when it says that we are united to him in his

[\[00:28:02\]](#transcript-00-28-02-385) death, what's that mean?

[\[00:28:05\]](#transcript-00-28-05-386) And she goes, just real, you know, 10-year-old.

[\[00:28:08\]](#transcript-00-28-08-387) She said, well,

[\[00:28:10\]](#transcript-00-28-10-388) when he died, it counted as my death.

[\[00:28:14\]](#transcript-00-28-14-389) Like, I died with him.

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-390) He died for me.

[\[00:28:18\]](#transcript-00-28-18-391) That's what that means.

[\[00:28:18\]](#transcript-00-28-18-392) Exactly.

[\[00:28:19\]](#transcript-00-28-19-393) Like, we've been united to Jesus, that what was true for him is true for me.

[\[00:28:24\]](#transcript-00-28-24-394) It's that simple.

[\[00:28:25\]](#transcript-00-28-25-395) Amen.

[\[00:28:26\]](#transcript-00-28-26-396) Right.

[\[00:28:27\]](#transcript-00-28-27-397) And it's not complicated.

[\[00:28:28\]](#transcript-00-28-28-398) It's like, yeah, we can use it.

[\[00:28:30\]](#transcript-00-28-30-399) I'm reading language from our confession of faith on baptism and what it means.

[\[00:28:34\]](#transcript-00-28-34-400) And it's like, what's it mean that you've been united to him in his death?

[\[00:28:39\]](#transcript-00-28-39-401) Because when he died, it counted for me.

[\[00:28:42\]](#transcript-00-28-42-402) Exactly.

[\[00:28:44\]](#transcript-00-28-44-403) Exactly.

[\[00:28:45\]](#transcript-00-28-45-404) You know, it is as simple, it's that simple that children can understand it.

[\[00:28:49\]](#transcript-00-28-49-405) And now we can, anyway, I think we've made that point.

[\[00:28:52\]](#transcript-00-28-52-406) Let's move on to where you wanted to go next.

[\[00:28:54\]](#transcript-00-28-54-407) Sure.

[\[00:28:55\]](#transcript-00-28-55-408) What I wanted to say is, and this is kind of where we're going to go next.

[\[00:29:00\]](#transcript-00-29-00-409) So, you and I both love golf.

[\[00:29:01\]](#transcript-00-29-01-410) Scotty Scheffler is the number one golfer in the world right now.

[\[00:29:04\]](#transcript-00-29-04-411) Yeah.

[\[00:29:05\]](#transcript-00-29-05-412) And also, not a, yeah.

[\[00:29:08\]](#transcript-00-29-08-413) And he's also

[\[00:29:10\]](#transcript-00-29-10-414) not afraid to share his faith.

[\[00:29:11\]](#transcript-00-29-11-415) No, which is refreshing.

[\[00:29:12\]](#transcript-00-29-12-416) Bro seems to be a sincere Christian.

[\[00:29:16\]](#transcript-00-29-16-417) Yeah, he seems to be sincere about his faith.

[\[00:29:19\]](#transcript-00-29-19-418) Yeah.

[\[00:29:20\]](#transcript-00-29-20-419) That's what I mean.

[\[00:29:20\]](#transcript-00-29-20-420) Yeah.

[\[00:29:20\]](#transcript-00-29-20-421) Yeah.

[\[00:29:21\]](#transcript-00-29-21-422) Seems very genuine.

[\[00:29:22\]](#transcript-00-29-22-423) Yeah, for sure.

[\[00:29:24\]](#transcript-00-29-24-424) So, what's interesting about Scotty is,

[\[00:29:27\]](#transcript-00-29-27-425) you know, what everybody says about him, he's just not, it's not impressive.

[\[00:29:30\]](#transcript-00-29-30-426) Like, he's sure.

[\[00:29:31\]](#transcript-00-29-31-427) Like, you don't look at the guy like a Dustin Johnson or a Tiger Woods when there's something like wow.

[\[00:29:36\]](#transcript-00-29-36-428) You know, sorry.

[\[00:29:38\]](#transcript-00-29-38-429) I mean, not to nerd out on sports, but like, yeah, he doesn't have the same aura and the same, like, like you're saying, you're the way Tiger was in his prime.

[\[00:29:46\]](#transcript-00-29-46-430) But Scotty's doing stuff that is insane.

[\[00:29:51\]](#transcript-00-29-51-431) But he doesn't have the same wow flair.

[\[00:29:52\]](#transcript-00-29-52-432) Like he's saying Roy McRoy.

[\[00:29:54\]](#transcript-00-29-54-433) When people hit it, when he hits the driver, everybody's like, wow.

[\[00:29:56\]](#transcript-00-29-56-434) And when Scotty hits it, they're like, that was weird.

[\[00:30:01\]](#transcript-00-30-01-435) But he just gets the ball in the hole, bro.

[\[00:30:03\]](#transcript-00-30-03-436) So the reason I'm bringing this up is this: to get off us off the nerding.

[\[00:30:07\]](#transcript-00-30-07-437) Uh, Scotty talks about every time he touches a club for practice, he has the same club, and it has these uh, it has a grip like you have to hold it.

[\[00:30:16\]](#transcript-00-30-16-438) And so he says, I start with the fundamentals every day because if I don't, if I don't have that right, that's his only connection to the club, which hits the ball, right?

[\[00:30:26\]](#transcript-00-30-26-439) Down the chain, it's going to fall apart.

[\[00:30:27\]](#transcript-00-30-27-440) That's right.

[\[00:30:28\]](#transcript-00-30-28-441) So he literally starts with what he started with when he was six years old: how to grip the club, how to grip the club, how to grip the club, how to sit down.

[\[00:30:34\]](#transcript-00-30-34-442) That's right.

[\[00:30:35\]](#transcript-00-30-35-443) And it's the basics, it's the fundamentals.

[\[00:30:37\]](#transcript-00-30-37-444) And here's what's interesting about golf: you get the fundamentals off by, and I mean a fraction of a centimeter, and the ball will go 300 yards the wrong direction.

[\[00:30:46\]](#transcript-00-30-46-445) It's insane how precise it has to be.

[\[00:30:48\]](#transcript-00-30-48-446) And this is, we're talking tenths of a degree.

[\[00:30:50\]](#transcript-00-30-50-447) You know, that kind of thing.

[\[00:30:52\]](#transcript-00-30-52-448) I mean, we're talking, it's crazy.

[\[00:30:54\]](#transcript-00-30-54-449) For those anybody who knows golf, you know this.

[\[00:30:55\]](#transcript-00-30-55-450) This is why it could be so invigorating and infuriating at the same time.

[\[00:30:59\]](#transcript-00-30-59-451) And this is true.

[\[00:31:00\]](#transcript-00-31-00-452) This is why this podcast matters to Justin and I: is that if you get the gospel wrong, just a smidge, just a little bit off, where it leads is tremendously wrong direction.

[\[00:31:13\]](#transcript-00-31-13-453) It's extremely damaging.

[\[00:31:14\]](#transcript-00-31-14-454) And this is where sometimes Justin and I can say, well, here's why you're over here, is because this is part of the gospel, you got wrong, right?

[\[00:31:23\]](#transcript-00-31-23-455) And so we're always tying it back to our faith.

[\[00:31:25\]](#transcript-00-31-25-456) And this is kind of where this next section is going: is that I believe someone can have a very strong faith in the gospel.

[\[00:31:33\]](#transcript-00-31-33-457) It's like, I know I'm trusting Christ, but yet, and this is going to lead into an episode we'll do next week, but I'm going to read this anyways.

[\[00:31:39\]](#transcript-00-31-39-458) This is Ephesians chapter 4.

[\[00:31:41\]](#transcript-00-31-41-459) And I think it's important that people understand this.

[\[00:31:44\]](#transcript-00-31-44-460) Okay.

[\[00:31:44\]](#transcript-00-31-44-461) This is really important for you to hear.

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-462) Paul is talking about the nature of the church and how it's to function.

[\[00:31:51\]](#transcript-00-31-51-463) And if it doesn't function like it's supposed to, he says this: He says, so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunningness, by

[\[00:32:05\]](#transcript-00-32-05-464) craftiness and deceitful schemes.

[\[00:32:06\]](#transcript-00-32-06-465) That means, as children, meaning children in the faith, that is where you are.

[\[00:32:13\]](#transcript-00-32-13-466) That means if you're not being discipled and cared for, this could be true about someone.

[\[00:32:19\]](#transcript-00-32-19-467) Yeah, and Justin, this is where I get a little upset because you get guys who come in.

[\[00:32:24\]](#transcript-00-32-24-468) I'm going to calm down for a second.

[\[00:32:25\]](#transcript-00-32-25-469) Guys come in and start questioning people's salvation because they just haven't seen this explosive growth.

[\[00:32:30\]](#transcript-00-32-30-470) They haven't seen this massive transformation.

[\[00:32:32\]](#transcript-00-32-32-471) They're still being tossed about.

[\[00:32:34\]](#transcript-00-32-34-472) They're still children in the faith.

[\[00:32:36\]](#transcript-00-32-36-473) And the point I'm trying to make is that we have to understand the difference between what saves us and how we grow, right?

[\[00:32:44\]](#transcript-00-32-44-474) The gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ, is what brings us to faith.

[\[00:32:49\]](#transcript-00-32-49-475) And if we aren't being discipled in that gospel over and over by more mature people, then you aren't going to see the kind of growth that we should see.

[\[00:32:58\]](#transcript-00-32-58-476) And there's a difference between how we grow in Christ and how we come to Christ.

[\[00:33:03\]](#transcript-00-33-03-477) You cannot say if you're not growing in Christ at a certain level, then you have not come to him.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-478) That's a danger.

[\[00:33:09\]](#transcript-00-33-09-479) And the reason why I mention this is that that then becomes a different gospel.

[\[00:33:15\]](#transcript-00-33-15-480) If there's a, you have to have a certain level of progress in order for you to be saved.

[\[00:33:20\]](#transcript-00-33-20-481) That's a different gospel.

[\[00:33:23\]](#transcript-00-33-23-482) 100%.

[\[00:33:24\]](#transcript-00-33-24-483) I mean, we've talked about this in various ways over the years, right?

[\[00:33:27\]](#transcript-00-33-27-484) Like, we call it sometimes the gospel of sincere obedience.

[\[00:33:31\]](#transcript-00-33-31-485) It becomes a different word.

[\[00:33:33\]](#transcript-00-33-33-486) It's a different message that somehow, at least in part, I'm saved by the sincerity of my obedience, my efforts to obey.

[\[00:33:40\]](#transcript-00-33-40-487) We talk about it sometimes, prove it.

[\[00:33:43\]](#transcript-00-33-43-488) It's a kind of prove it.

[\[00:33:44\]](#transcript-00-33-44-489) Yeah, the prove yourself gospel.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-490) Yeah.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-491) Yeah, prove yourself, right?

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-492) Where you have to continually do things to validate yourself, to prove your legitimacy.

[\[00:33:54\]](#transcript-00-33-54-493) And that is a different gospel for sure because your eyes are fixed on something other than Christ.

[\[00:34:02\]](#transcript-00-34-02-494) And there is a way to do one without neglecting the other, right?

[\[00:34:06\]](#transcript-00-34-06-495) Like what we want to do, like to your point, this is why I think that gospel clarity and gospel emphasis is so important.

[\[00:34:13\]](#transcript-00-34-13-496) Is that you want to be absolutely sure that the gaze of the Christian, the hope of the Christian, is fixed entirely on Jesus for them.

[\[00:34:25\]](#transcript-00-34-25-497) And then, with that locked in, now we can talk about all the stuff pertaining to the Christian life and wisdom and obedience and all of these good things that the Lord has revealed to us in His Word.

[\[00:34:40\]](#transcript-00-34-40-498) Yes, and amen to all that.

[\[00:34:42\]](#transcript-00-34-42-499) But we have to do it.

[\[00:34:44\]](#transcript-00-34-44-500) We've talked about this forever, John.

[\[00:34:45\]](#transcript-00-34-45-501) I mean, since we've been doing things together, Jesus always has to be in the foreground, always.

[\[00:34:52\]](#transcript-00-34-52-502) And the Christian life, and whatever you want to put in that bucket, you know, that would include sanctification, right?

[\[00:35:00\]](#transcript-00-35-00-503) And obedience, and even repentance, and all these various things, wisdom, throw them in that bucket of the Christian life.

[\[00:35:09\]](#transcript-00-35-09-504) Those things are always viewed through the lens of Jesus, Jesus for me.

[\[00:35:15\]](#transcript-00-35-15-505) That's how it has to be done, or we are in danger, to use your illustration from earlier, of finding ourselves way off course eventually.

[\[00:35:24\]](#transcript-00-35-24-506) Because at first, it's like, you know, the Gospel's assumed a little bit.

[\[00:35:29\]](#transcript-00-35-29-507) At first, it's like, you know, yeah, of course, Jesus, yes, but we got to talk about this over here.

[\[00:35:36\]](#transcript-00-35-36-508) Then, before you know it, the gospel's a footnote.

[\[00:35:40\]](#transcript-00-35-40-509) And And

[\[00:35:41\]](#transcript-00-35-41-510) we're, you know, we're sincerely working and trying and striving and doing all kinds of stuff.

[\[00:35:47\]](#transcript-00-35-47-511) But at the heart of the matter, I'm not even sure where my hope and my confidence lies anymore.

[\[00:35:52\]](#transcript-00-35-52-512) That's right.

[\[00:35:53\]](#transcript-00-35-53-513) Yeah, it can't be.

[\[00:35:54\]](#transcript-00-35-54-514) Rest is found in my obedience instead of in Christ.

[\[00:35:57\]](#transcript-00-35-57-515) Yeah, like you know, you can hit your wagon to obedience if you want to.

[\[00:36:00\]](#transcript-00-36-00-516) I'd rather hitch it to Jesus.

[\[00:36:02\]](#transcript-00-36-02-517) That's right.

[\[00:36:04\]](#transcript-00-36-04-518) I mean, he's the wagon that's going to take us to the promised land.

[\[00:36:08\]](#transcript-00-36-08-519) And so, yeah, man, this is really critical.

[\[00:36:12\]](#transcript-00-36-12-520) And the reasons that we get geeked up about some of the doctrine and we want to take the clutter off the gospel all the time, and we want to talk about everything Christ did, and is because we're trying

[\[00:36:23\]](#transcript-00-36-23-521) to continually pull the saints back onto the rock that is higher than them.

[\[00:36:27\]](#transcript-00-36-27-522) Like you're tempted to look over there, you're tempted to trust that over there, you're tempted to find some hope or peace or confidence in that over there.

[\[00:36:34\]](#transcript-00-36-34-523) And dear saint, while you can be encouraged by your growth and the fruit that you see, and it's helping your neighbor, praise the Lord for all that.

[\[00:36:41\]](#transcript-00-36-41-524) Your hope and stay is always and forever.

[\[00:36:44\]](#transcript-00-36-44-525) Jesus for you.

[\[00:36:46\]](#transcript-00-36-46-526) You know, that's that's it.

[\[00:36:47\]](#transcript-00-36-47-527) And that's what we're about.

[\[00:36:49\]](#transcript-00-36-49-528) And the 300th episode, yeah, it's a fitting conversation.

[\[00:36:52\]](#transcript-00-36-52-529) So I'll end, we'll end with this.

[\[00:36:54\]](#transcript-00-36-54-530) If you're listening to this and you're like, I'm still kind of confused.

[\[00:36:57\]](#transcript-00-36-57-531) So we'll just close with the gospel for you.

[\[00:37:02\]](#transcript-00-37-02-532) If you're feeling the weight of your sin, like, man, I, I, I, I just, I know I'm not good.

[\[00:37:07\]](#transcript-00-37-07-533) I know I'm a sinner.

[\[00:37:08\]](#transcript-00-37-08-534) Great.

[\[00:37:09\]](#transcript-00-37-09-535) That is step one.

[\[00:37:10\]](#transcript-00-37-10-536) You need to understand your condition.

[\[00:37:12\]](#transcript-00-37-12-537) And that is important.

[\[00:37:13\]](#transcript-00-37-13-538) Now, understand your condition is not the gospel.

[\[00:37:15\]](#transcript-00-37-15-539) Okay.

[\[00:37:15\]](#transcript-00-37-15-540) What is it?

[\[00:37:16\]](#transcript-00-37-16-541) And the law.

[\[00:37:16\]](#transcript-00-37-16-542) That's actually the gospel.

[\[00:37:17\]](#transcript-00-37-17-543) That's actually law, in a way.

[\[00:37:18\]](#transcript-00-37-18-544) That's law.

[\[00:37:19\]](#transcript-00-37-19-545) That's right.

[\[00:37:20\]](#transcript-00-37-20-546) Right.

[\[00:37:20\]](#transcript-00-37-20-547) Yeah.

[\[00:37:21\]](#transcript-00-37-21-548) So, and by the way, you may say, I don't, I don't feel, I don't, I don't think I think I feel guilty enough over my sin.

[\[00:37:28\]](#transcript-00-37-28-549) Like, I you most certainly don't.

[\[00:37:30\]](#transcript-00-37-30-550) You never will.

[\[00:37:31\]](#transcript-00-37-31-551) Yeah, you will never know how sinful you are.

[\[00:37:34\]](#transcript-00-37-34-552) Because if you did, I don't even want to think about what that would do to the psyche of the human mind.

[\[00:37:39\]](#transcript-00-37-39-553) It'd be too much.

[\[00:37:40\]](#transcript-00-37-40-554) It'd be too much for us.

[\[00:37:41\]](#transcript-00-37-41-555) It would be too much for us to understand.

[\[00:37:43\]](#transcript-00-37-43-556) So, God, in His mercy, even keeps back how bad you are before Him.

[\[00:37:47\]](#transcript-00-37-47-557) He just says, This: Look, it's bad enough that you're my enemy.

[\[00:37:51\]](#transcript-00-37-51-558) That's not good.

[\[00:37:52\]](#transcript-00-37-52-559) You do not want to be the enemy of God.

[\[00:37:54\]](#transcript-00-37-54-560) And then he says, But while you're my enemy, dear child, I've come to you and I love you.

[\[00:37:59\]](#transcript-00-37-59-561) If you can even hear those words that Christ died for you and will wash away your sin, and he will forever take care of you.

[\[00:38:10\]](#transcript-00-38-10-562) Just think about it this way.

[\[00:38:11\]](#transcript-00-38-11-563) Don't think you have to understand everything.

[\[00:38:12\]](#transcript-00-38-12-564) Can Jesus take care of me before the Father out of love.

[\[00:38:17\]](#transcript-00-38-17-565) Yes, not out of transaction, out of love.

[\[00:38:20\]](#transcript-00-38-20-566) Do you believe that?

[\[00:38:21\]](#transcript-00-38-21-567) Then great.

[\[00:38:22\]](#transcript-00-38-22-568) We can add so much more to your faith.

[\[00:38:24\]](#transcript-00-38-24-569) But what you need to trust is this.

[\[00:38:27\]](#transcript-00-38-27-570) Don't trust your sincerity.

[\[00:38:28\]](#transcript-00-38-28-571) Don't trust your repentance.

[\[00:38:30\]](#transcript-00-38-30-572) Don't trust your faith.

[\[00:38:32\]](#transcript-00-38-32-573) Don't trust any of that.

[\[00:38:34\]](#transcript-00-38-34-574) Trust that Jesus can save and he can give you everything that you need, and he will never let you go.

[\[00:38:41\]](#transcript-00-38-41-575) If you come, he says, all those who come to him, he will never let him go.

[\[00:38:45\]](#transcript-00-38-45-576) And how is it you have the power to come to him?

[\[00:38:46\]](#transcript-00-38-46-577) Because he gave you that power.

[\[00:38:48\]](#transcript-00-38-48-578) That's the gospel.

[\[00:38:49\]](#transcript-00-38-49-579) Trust that.

[\[00:38:50\]](#transcript-00-38-50-580) And let's start working on building your faith.

[\[00:38:53\]](#transcript-00-38-53-581) Let's start working, get you in a good church.

[\[00:38:55\]](#transcript-00-38-55-582) Let's start getting you discipled because you can find rest and there is rest.

[\[00:38:59\]](#transcript-00-38-59-583) And the fact is that you don't have it, that's not because of the gospel.

[\[00:39:02\]](#transcript-00-39-02-584) That's because you've been lied to by Satan, and we're going to clean that up.

[\[00:39:06\]](#transcript-00-39-06-585) Yeah.

[\[00:39:07\]](#transcript-00-39-07-586) Super quick, just some good, good questions to ask others.

[\[00:39:11\]](#transcript-00-39-11-587) And to even, if I were sitting with you and I wanted to encourage you in the heart of what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:39:20\]](#transcript-00-39-20-588) Yeah, you just ask, hey,

[\[00:39:23\]](#transcript-00-39-23-589) have you obeyed God's law perfectly?

[\[00:39:26\]](#transcript-00-39-26-590) You would say, well, no.

[\[00:39:27\]](#transcript-00-39-27-591) And I would say, well, in God's Word, it says that if we don't, then we deserve death, and we deserve judgment.

[\[00:39:33\]](#transcript-00-39-33-592) Did Jesus do anything about that for you?

[\[00:39:36\]](#transcript-00-39-36-593) And you would say, Well, yeah, I know he died on the cross for me.

[\[00:39:39\]](#transcript-00-39-39-594) And I would say, Amen.

[\[00:39:40\]](#transcript-00-39-40-595) And then it would say, Okay, can you?

[\[00:39:44\]](#transcript-00-39-44-596) I've already asked you this, but I just want to double down on this.

[\[00:39:46\]](#transcript-00-39-46-597) Can you keep God's law to earn God's favor?

[\[00:39:49\]](#transcript-00-39-49-598) Well, no.

[\[00:39:50\]](#transcript-00-39-50-599) Well, do you think that Jesus did that for you?

[\[00:39:52\]](#transcript-00-39-52-600) Was he perfect?

[\[00:39:53\]](#transcript-00-39-53-601) Well, yeah, I think I believe he was.

[\[00:39:55\]](#transcript-00-39-55-602) Amen.

[\[00:39:55\]](#transcript-00-39-55-603) I agree with you.

[\[00:39:56\]](#transcript-00-39-56-604) He was that for you.

[\[00:39:57\]](#transcript-00-39-57-605) You're dying just like me.

[\[00:39:59\]](#transcript-00-39-59-606) You're going to be put in the ground one day.

[\[00:40:02\]](#transcript-00-40-02-607) Did Jesus do anything about that?

[\[00:40:03\]](#transcript-00-40-03-608) Does the Bible say anything about Jesus conquering the grave?

[\[00:40:06\]](#transcript-00-40-06-609) And you're like, He got up from the dead.

[\[00:40:08\]](#transcript-00-40-08-610) Yes, he did.

[\[00:40:09\]](#transcript-00-40-09-611) Amen.

[\[00:40:10\]](#transcript-00-40-10-612) He did that for you.

[\[00:40:11\]](#transcript-00-40-11-613) Right?

[\[00:40:11\]](#transcript-00-40-11-614) You have an enemy who's the ancient serpent, the devil.

[\[00:40:16\]](#transcript-00-40-16-615) Did Jesus do anything to defeat him?

[\[00:40:20\]](#transcript-00-40-20-616) yeah, he did.

[\[00:40:21\]](#transcript-00-40-21-617) He conquered him.

[\[00:40:22\]](#transcript-00-40-22-618) Yeah, he did that for you, didn't he?

[\[00:40:24\]](#transcript-00-40-24-619) And do you believe that?

[\[00:40:25\]](#transcript-00-40-25-620) And you would say, yeah.

[\[00:40:26\]](#transcript-00-40-26-621) And I'd say, Amen.

[\[00:40:28\]](#transcript-00-40-28-622) Brother, sister, I'm with you.

[\[00:40:30\]](#transcript-00-40-30-623) He's the only hope we could ever have.

[\[00:40:31\]](#transcript-00-40-31-624) And he's enough.

[\[00:40:32\]](#transcript-00-40-32-625) He's done it all.

[\[00:40:34\]](#transcript-00-40-34-626) So let's keep trusting him, right?

[\[00:40:36\]](#transcript-00-40-36-627) I mean, that's it.

[\[00:40:37\]](#transcript-00-40-37-628) Those are the kinds of conversations that we want to have with each other.

[\[00:40:40\]](#transcript-00-40-40-629) You can have them with your kids, you can have them with other adults, you can have them with anybody.

[\[00:40:44\]](#transcript-00-40-44-630) That's right.

[\[00:40:45\]](#transcript-00-40-45-631) Let's make the gospel great again in its simplest form.

[\[00:40:51\]](#transcript-00-40-51-632) Hey, thanks for listening.

[\[00:40:52\]](#transcript-00-40-52-633) If you've been encouraged by this, this is a great community that you can be a part of.

[\[00:40:56\]](#transcript-00-40-56-634) Other like-minded brothers and sisters, this is not a replacement for your church, but it is a great way to find kingdom help and kingdom encouragement as we do the work of the kingdom all around the world, there's people

[\[00:41:07\]](#transcript-00-41-07-635) from all around the world in there.

[\[00:41:08\]](#transcript-00-41-08-636) We'd love to see you in there.

[\[00:41:09\]](#transcript-00-41-09-637) Justin and I are always encouraged by the interactions that are in there.

[\[00:41:13\]](#transcript-00-41-13-638) So if you'd like to come join that, you can go to deocast.org.

[\[00:41:16\]](#transcript-00-41-16-639) Thanks for listening and God bless you guys.

[\[00:41:18\]](#transcript-00-41-18-640) And hopefully, on this 300th episode and the start of our seventh year, you've been encouraged.

[\[00:41:24\]](#transcript-00-41-24-641) May the Lord give us many more.

[\[00:41:26\]](#transcript-00-41-26-642) Hey guys, real quick.

[\[00:41:27\]](#transcript-00-41-27-643) Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:41:31\]](#transcript-00-41-31-644) So, where do you go?

[\[00:41:32\]](#transcript-00-41-32-645) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:41:37\]](#transcript-00-41-37-646) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources are there: past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's

[\[00:41:48\]](#transcript-00-41-48-647) there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:41:51\]](#transcript-00-41-51-648) You can go check it out.

[\[00:41:52\]](#transcript-00-41-52-649) The link is in the description below.

---

### When Christians Hurt Each Other

*Published: October 1, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/when-christians-hurt-each-other*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/US8-srcN7Hc)

Justin and Jon love this phrase: All of Christ for all of life. That is what this podcast is about today. The doctrine of Christ is important, and we need to get it right—but it is also for our daily lives. This is where it becomes a balm and a joy. It allows us not only to have rest but also to give rest. So we want to talk about what all of Christ looks like in areas such as relational conflict. How do we apply the wonders of Jesus for us, and how do we use something like the third use of the law to proclaim the light of the Kingdom while resisting the darkness? We live in a dark world, so considering all of Christ in conflict is a really important conversation. It was helpful for us, and we hope it will be encouraging for you as well.

* All of Christ for all of life in relational conflict
* Doctrine as balm that lets us rest and give rest
* Applying Christ and the third use of the law when believers hurt each other

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Tempted? Welcome to Christianity

*Published: September 24, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/tempted-welcome-to-christianity*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/St8pgZJPhd8)

Something I wish Christianity would address more often is the normal battle with sin. Or, to put it another way: temptation. Temptation is a normal experience. That word "normal" is the key. We tend to think that as we grow in Christ, temptation decreases. But that is not what Paul says about our experience. It’s important to understand that you will not only struggle with sin, meaning you’re fighting it, but the temptation to sin may actually increase as you mature in the faith. Paul gives us some very important ways to think about temptation and how to endure it. This is a really important conversation. If you're struggling and feel the weight of temptation beating you down, this episode is for you.

* Temptation as a normal Christian experience
* Why maturity may increase the fight rather than erase it
* What Paul says about struggling with sin in the faith

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Make Repentance Great Again

*Published: September 17, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/make-repentance-great-again*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/tvrP93zylU0)

When I say the word repent, how do you feel? When I say confess your sins, what does that evoke in you? If repentance feels scary, threatening, or uncomfortable, or if confession feels the same, this podcast is for you. Jon and Justin are going to have a sweet conversation about how good God is to us, how forgiving and merciful He is, and how, since we have been united to Jesus by faith and brought into the family of God, it is actually a joy to live a life of continual repentance and honest confession of sin. We want to walk in the light together. There is real freedom and lasting joy in doing so. So let's make repentance great again.

* When repentance and confession feel scary or threatening
* God’s mercy to those united to Jesus by faith
* Joy in continual repentance and honest confession

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Processing Evil in Light of Charlie Kirk

*Published: September 11, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/processing-evil-in-light-of-charlie-kirk*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/k0j%5FEUMitEs)

This conversation was recorded before the official announcement of Charlie’s death. Our hearts and our prayers are with his family. May the Lord Jesus Christ comfort them now and always. There is so much evil and pain in this world, and in this life. It all just feels too much to bear. We don't just face the evils of men; day by day, we are confronted with truly wicked and demonic powers that look to steal our hope.

* Evil, pain, and demonic powers that steal hope
* Remembering the light of Christ and His gospel in dark hours
* Jesus defeating death so you can live

---

### Christless "Expository" Preaching

*Published: September 10, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/christless-expository-preaching*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/p1lxdrYnOMs)

Expository preaching has been very popular for the last 30 to 40 years, and we are thankful for that. But the Bible actually tells us how the Word is to be explained and expounded, and that is what this episode is about. Jon and Justin are going to make the argument that if Christ is not part of the explanation, then technically it is not a Christian sermon. It is not a biblical sermon. It is not biblical exposition. It is a bold claim, but this conversation really matters. We are going to argue from Scripture what biblical expositional preaching actually is. To avoid burying the lead: it is about Jesus.

* Why exposition without Christ is not a Christian sermon
* How the Word is to be explained according to Scripture
* Christ as necessary to biblical exposition

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Stop Dehumanizing Jesus

*Published: September 3, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/stop-dehumanizing-jesus*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/fGu05yTfBoI)

Is there a man who sits on the throne of God? And what does that mean for us? Can Jesus identify with us and have compassion on us in the midst of our struggle, our fear, and our discouragement? Does He feel things for us? Is Jesus of Nazareth a man of feeling? The answer to those questions is yes. He is a man of feeling. He is with us, compassionate, merciful, and gentle. This has everything to do with the fact that He is not only God; He is truly human. Jon and Justin are going to have that conversation today, and we hope it encourages and comforts you in Christ.

* Jesus as truly man as well as truly God
* His compassion, mercy, and feeling toward struggling believers
* Why His humanity matters for our fear and discouragement

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### "Accurate" Yet Empty: The Problem with Theological Lectures

*Published: August 27, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/accurate-yet-empty-the-problem-with-theological-lectures*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/f7fV%5F3KB66M)

Today's episode is definitely a little more in your face, as you can tell from the title, but it's so important. Jon and Justin want to talk about preaching and how we understand Scripture in general, including expository and exegetical preaching. We want to help you see that if your conclusion is not Jesus, then something is missing. And we have reasons for saying that, based on the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. So if your sermon is exegetically and historically sound but does not end with Christ, we are going to challenge that. Because without Jesus, the sermon is ultimately empty.

* Exegesis that never concludes with Jesus
* Why historically sound sermons can still be empty
* Jesus and the apostles on what faithful preaching must do

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### In the Beginning, Jesus...

*Published: August 20, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/in-the-beginning-jesus*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/sflwjw2h0Po)

When you read Genesis or Exodus, the very first books of the Bible, what comes to mind? Do you think of creationism versus evolution? An ark in Kentucky? Or do you think about Christ, how He has been present from the very beginning and is woven through every book of Scripture, including Genesis and Exodus? Jon and Justin are having a conversation today about Christ in the beginning. We’re going to survey Genesis and Exodus and help you see Jesus, not in a strange or forced way, but in a sound, biblical, apostolic way. Christ is there. He is for you. He has always been the Redeemer. We hope this encourages and comforts you.

* Christ present from the beginning of Scripture
* Seeing Jesus in Genesis and Exodus without forcing the text
* Sound, biblical Christ-centered reading of the early books

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### No Damascus Road? No Problem.

*Published: August 13, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/no-damascus-road-no-problem*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/115k7CZTMWI)

Some of you may feel like your testimony isn’t exciting enough to be worth sharing. Maybe you’ve wondered if you're even saved because you haven’t experienced a dramatic life transformation. Others may think only those who’ve hit rock bottom can truly understand grace. In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about why that’s not true; and why every believer, no matter their story, needs the same amazing grace.

* When your testimony feels too ordinary to share
* Whether dramatic transformation is required to prove salvation
* Every believer needing the same amazing grace

* [9Marks × Theocast](https://www.9marks.org/theocast/) — Church Matters journal giveaway
* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Deliverance from Trials Is Never Promised

*Published: August 6, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/deliverance-from-trials-is-never-promised*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/D%5Fsy2hgXaxc)

Many of you have probably prayed the prayer of Paul: “Lord, please take this away from me.” Not just once, but many times. It can become exhausting, frustrating, and even lead to doubt. That’s why today’s podcast is so important. We need to talk about trials and God’s grace, and how the two go together. What promise do we actually have from God? We dive deep into the reality of His love for us, especially how it’s not transactional, even in the midst of our suffering. We hope this encourages you. And if you find it helpful, please share it with someone. It might give them strength and hope in their own season of suffering.

* Praying for the thorn to be taken away—again and again
* What God actually promises in trials
* Non-transactional love in the midst of suffering

* [9Marks × Theocast](https://www.9marks.org/theocast/) — Church Matters journal giveaway
* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### The Re-Purposed Driven Life

*Published: July 30, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-re-purposed-driven-life*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/BrabO9XbZG4)

In this life, we’re offered all kinds of reasons and purposes to live. But when you try them, you often realize that, in the end, you’re still weak, still unsatisfied, and still not measuring up. Then comes the question: “What is the purpose of my life? Why am I even here?” That’s a really tough place to be. This episode connects closely to last week’s: “Jesus Knows You’re Tired.” So what now? Do we just give up? Is that the message of Christ? No. He gives us new hope, a new identity, and a new purpose. And it’s in our weakness that we find our greatest significance. That’s what today’s episode is all about. We hope it encourages you.

* When every offered purpose still leaves you weak and unsatisfied
* New hope, identity, and purpose in Christ
* Following “Jesus Knows You’re Tired” with gospel purpose

* [Jesus Knows You're Tired](https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/jesus-knows-youre-tired) — related episode
* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Jesus Knows You're Tired

*Published: July 23, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/jesus-knows-youre-tired*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/bhwgil-MObI)

Maybe you’ve heard the term arrival fallacy; the idea that once we reach a certain point in life, things will finally get easier. We can fall into the same mindset in the Christian life, believing that one day suffering will lessen, trials will be lighter, or the battle with sin won’t be as intense. Some even think that if we just get church and doctrine right, the problems will go away. But that’s not biblical. In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about the ongoing reality of weakness, struggle, and suffering in the Christian life. You’re not alone, you’re not crazy, and Christ is for you and with you.

* Arrival fallacy in the Christian life
* Ongoing weakness, struggle, and trials that do not simply fade
* Rest in a Savior who knows you are tired

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### How Satan Attacks Christians Today

*Published: July 16, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-satan-attacks-christians-today*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/a8VfuqKa2Dc)

James 4 gives us an interesting warning: Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. In Ephesians 4, Paul talks about not giving the devil a foothold—don’t give him room in the congregation. What we want to talk about today is this: What does that actually look like, and what is Satan after in both of those contexts? We would argue that, throughout the New Testament, the writers are trying to protect something specific from Satan—and it’s vitally important that we understand what that is. Why? Because it’s directly connected to our spiritual health and life. These are real attacks from a real enemy.

* What “resist the devil” and “no foothold” actually protect
* Satan’s aim in the congregation and in the believer
* New Testament writers guarding something specific from the enemy

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### White-Knuckled American Sanctification

*Published: July 9, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/white-knuckled-american-sanctification*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/a6UN1EQMt7Y)

Should we be brute-forcing sanctification? Are we relying on our own strength to produce holiness? The American church often places heavy emphasis on the growth of the Christian—living each day simply to behave better than the day before—instead of emphasizing trust and rest in the finished work of Christ. It becomes more about avoiding sin than clinging to Jesus. In today’s episode, Jon and Justin are joined by a panel of pastors from the recent Grace Reformed Network 2025 General Assembly conference. Together, we discuss key doctrinal failings within the broader American church and how the Holy Spirit truly brings about sanctification in us.

* Brute-forcing holiness by our own strength
* Growth talk that eclipses trust in Christ’s finished work
* Panel pastors from the Grace Reformed Network 2025 Assembly

* [Grace Reformed Network](https://www.gracereformednetwork.org/)
* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:10\]](#transcript-00-00-10-1) Welcome to Theocast, Encouraging Weary Pilgrims to Rest in Christ.

[\[00:00:15\]](#transcript-00-00-15-2) Conversations about your life and ours because it matters about the Christian life from a reformed and pastoral perspective.

[\[00:00:23\]](#transcript-00-00-23-3) We're two pastors who are excited about talking about Jesus.

[\[00:00:27\]](#transcript-00-00-27-4) That's really what this podcast is about.

[\[00:00:29\]](#transcript-00-00-29-5) And it just so happens that we're in the same room today.

[\[00:00:33\]](#transcript-00-00-33-6) I don't even get to talk to the camera.

[\[00:00:34\]](#transcript-00-00-34-7) I actually get to talk to my dear brother, Justin Perdue, who's the pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:00:43\]](#transcript-00-00-43-8) It's been a long week.

[\[00:00:44\]](#transcript-00-00-44-9) We're struggling.

[\[00:00:45\]](#transcript-00-00-45-10) I'm going to get there.

[\[00:00:46\]](#transcript-00-00-46-11) I'm Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:00:46\]](#transcript-00-00-46-12) I'm pastor of Grace Reformed Church here in Springhill, Tennessee.

[\[00:00:50\]](#transcript-00-00-50-13) It's been a long series of days.

[\[00:00:52\]](#transcript-00-00-52-14) This is our fifth day together.

[\[00:00:53\]](#transcript-00-00-53-15) It's our second podcast together, and uh, it's been great, it's been refreshing.

[\[00:00:59\]](#transcript-00-00-59-16) But, um, we do.

[\[00:01:00\]](#transcript-00-01-00-17) If you hear some noise going on, uh, we got our first podcast in, and now there's some kind of an event going next door.

[\[00:01:06\]](#transcript-00-01-06-18) It's popping off over there.

[\[00:01:07\]](#transcript-00-01-07-19) My walls are pretty thin here in the office.

[\[00:01:10\]](#transcript-00-01-10-20) So, but no, we just had our General Assembly.

[\[00:01:14\]](#transcript-00-01-14-21) This is our second one.

[\[00:01:15\]](#transcript-00-01-15-22) Second General Assembly for the Grace Reform Network.

[\[00:01:17\]](#transcript-00-01-17-23) Yep.

[\[00:01:17\]](#transcript-00-01-17-24) And we talked a little bit more about it in the last episode.

[\[00:01:20\]](#transcript-00-01-20-25) You can go there.

[\[00:01:21\]](#transcript-00-01-21-26) But what we're going to do is, we had a panel, and I'll let you explain it.

[\[00:01:26\]](#transcript-00-01-26-27) We had a really good panel discussion that we just felt encouraged by.

[\[00:01:30\]](#transcript-00-01-30-28) We thought you would be encouraged by it.

[\[00:01:32\]](#transcript-00-01-32-29) And this year, our panel was made up of six people.

[\[00:01:35\]](#transcript-00-01-35-30) So, you and I, and we have our two other board members, so Patrick Crandall and Charles Townsend.

[\[00:01:40\]](#transcript-00-01-40-31) So, who are the other two guys that we had on there?

[\[00:01:42\]](#transcript-00-01-42-32) So, that they can, I don't think we really say their names, and you won't.

[\[00:01:45\]](#transcript-00-01-45-33) So, Patrick Crandall, you already mentioned, pastor of Covenant Grace Columbia, here in Metro Nashville area.

[\[00:01:51\]](#transcript-00-01-51-34) And then Charles Townsend, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Spencer, Indiana.

[\[00:01:55\]](#transcript-00-01-55-35) So those guys are on the board with us.

[\[00:01:57\]](#transcript-00-01-57-36) And then the other two pastors are Jeremiah Hurt, who is the pastor of Reforming Truth Church in Lexington, Kentucky.

[\[00:02:03\]](#transcript-00-02-03-37) And then Darren Caldwell, pastor of Covenant Grace, Utah, out in Syracuse, Utah, not far from Salt Lake City.

[\[00:02:10\]](#transcript-00-02-10-38) And so those are the six of us who are on the panel.

[\[00:02:12\]](#transcript-00-02-12-39) And it's a really good conversation.

[\[00:02:14\]](#transcript-00-02-14-40) Go all pastors in the network.

[\[00:02:15\]](#transcript-00-02-15-41) All pastors in the network.

[\[00:02:17\]](#transcript-00-02-17-42) So all these guys are where we are, theologically, confessional Baptists, would have the same law and gospel categories and would have categories for pietism, revivalism, and all the stuff.

[\[00:02:25\]](#transcript-00-02-25-43) And if you don't know what those words are, just stay tuned because we have a conversation that we entitled then: Pietism, Revivalism, and Sanctification.

[\[00:02:34\]](#transcript-00-02-34-44) What you see in terms of an episode title here is White-Knuckled American Sanctification.

[\[00:02:39\]](#transcript-00-02-39-45) And this is what we're getting at is this.

[\[00:02:42\]](#transcript-00-02-42-46) Pietism and revivalism are movements that shaped the American church, particularly in the Baptist world, but have shaped the American church significantly.

[\[00:02:50\]](#transcript-00-02-50-47) And we really tackle, like, how have these things just ruined sanctification for us?

[\[00:02:55\]](#transcript-00-02-55-48) Where it has turned it into this white-knuckled, really difficult thing.

[\[00:03:00\]](#transcript-00-03-00-49) And it's kind of like, you say sanctification, and what do you feel?

[\[00:03:04\]](#transcript-00-03-04-50) Well, I feel dread, fear, I feel uneasy, I feel like a failure, and sanctification ends up feeling like a trip to the DMV, and it's just not a good thing.

[\[00:03:12\]](#transcript-00-03-12-51) And that is not at all how we should think about sanctification.

[\[00:03:15\]](#transcript-00-03-15-52) So, in this panel discussion, we define pietism and revivalism.

[\[00:03:19\]](#transcript-00-03-19-53) We kick that around a little bit.

[\[00:03:21\]](#transcript-00-03-21-54) So, that's good.

[\[00:03:22\]](#transcript-00-03-22-55) And we do try to identify the problems and how those movements have subjectivized religion.

[\[00:03:28\]](#transcript-00-03-28-56) It's made it all about me in a way that is unhelpful rather than continuing to point us all to Christ and the faithfulness of God to sanctify.

[\[00:03:37\]](#transcript-00-03-37-57) And then we try to pull ourselves onto the rock that is higher than we are.

[\[00:03:40\]](#transcript-00-03-40-58) We don't want to just leave us in, well, here's our problems, and here's how the American church has not helped us.

[\[00:03:46\]](#transcript-00-03-46-59) But we then try to have a conversation that encourages us all in the faithfulness of God and the faithfulness of our Savior to continue to work in and through us.

[\[00:03:55\]](#transcript-00-03-55-60) And it's a good conversation.

[\[00:03:57\]](#transcript-00-03-57-61) I think that you're going to enjoy.

[\[00:03:58\]](#transcript-00-03-58-62) I know, Jon, you agree.

[\[00:03:59\]](#transcript-00-03-59-63) You're going to enjoy the input from these other guys.

[\[00:04:01\]](#transcript-00-04-01-64) It's good to hear other voices sometimes.

[\[00:04:03\]](#transcript-00-04-03-65) And we're going to leave it to you and trust that you're going to be bolstered and comforted in your walk with Christ.

[\[00:04:11\]](#transcript-00-04-11-66) Yeah.

[\[00:04:11\]](#transcript-00-04-11-67) If you want to hear from these men, they both taught, and Justin and I both preached.

[\[00:04:15\]](#transcript-00-04-15-68) I preached Tuesday night, you preached Wednesday night.

[\[00:04:17\]](#transcript-00-04-17-69) We did multiple panels on stuff.

[\[00:04:18\]](#transcript-00-04-18-70) If you wanted to learn more about that and the network, you can go to grace reform network.org and we'd love for you to pray for us and support us in the way that you can.

[\[00:04:26\]](#transcript-00-04-26-71) We've got over 21 churches now that are spread around the globe, mostly here in the United States.

[\[00:04:31\]](#transcript-00-04-31-72) We got one in Romania, and just really thankful to be able to have gospel preaching churches that understand the importance of this.

[\[00:04:38\]](#transcript-00-04-38-73) So, if you want to learn more about that or just pray for us, that would be much appreciated.

[\[00:04:43\]](#transcript-00-04-43-74) So, we pray that you enjoyed this as much as I did.

[\[00:04:46\]](#transcript-00-04-46-75) I loved hearing this conversation.

[\[00:04:48\]](#transcript-00-04-48-76) It was a blast.

[\[00:04:48\]](#transcript-00-04-48-77) It was a blast.

[\[00:04:49\]](#transcript-00-04-49-78) so we'll leave to you.

[\[00:04:50\]](#transcript-00-04-50-79) Hope you enjoy it.

[\[00:04:51\]](#transcript-00-04-51-80) So, we're going to do a panel now on pietism, revivalism, and sanctification.

[\[00:04:58\]](#transcript-00-04-58-81) So, maybe let's start by defining those two terms.

[\[00:05:02\]](#transcript-00-05-02-82) I don't want to assume things.

[\[00:05:06\]](#transcript-00-05-06-83) Pietism.

[\[00:05:08\]](#transcript-00-05-08-84) Somebody take a stab at it.

[\[00:05:10\]](#transcript-00-05-10-85) Go for it, D.

[\[00:05:11\]](#transcript-00-05-11-86) Sanctification by law, by legalism, holiness by legalism.

[\[00:05:17\]](#transcript-00-05-17-87) Other thoughts?

[\[00:05:19\]](#transcript-00-05-19-88) Correct me, Jon.

[\[00:05:21\]](#transcript-00-05-21-89) Yeah, no, because then what's the difference between legalism, right?

[\[00:05:25\]](#transcript-00-05-25-90) There is a subtlety that's there, and the subtlety is that sometimes a lot, sometimes what, so like, let's start with this: what's the difference between pietism and piety?

[\[00:05:36\]](#transcript-00-05-36-91) Let's go positive.

[\[00:05:37\]](#transcript-00-05-37-92) Great.

[\[00:05:38\]](#transcript-00-05-38-93) So, piety would be.

[\[00:05:39\]](#transcript-00-05-39-94) Piety is effectively godliness.

[\[00:05:42\]](#transcript-00-05-42-95) I mean, it is the sanctifying work of the Spirit of God in our lives, transforming and conforming us to the image of Christ, that is something that God does.

[\[00:05:53\]](#transcript-00-05-53-96) So, yeah, whether we want to frame it as godliness, Christian maturity, holiness, et cetera, different terms could be used to describe what piety is.

[\[00:06:00\]](#transcript-00-06-00-97) Piety is good.

[\[00:06:02\]](#transcript-00-06-02-98) Sure.

[\[00:06:03\]](#transcript-00-06-03-99) So, where the difference between legalism and pietism will come in is that legalism would end up using the actual like Mosaic law, the Ten Commandments, force, and pietism is a little smarter, which makes it harder to catch, in

[\[00:06:18\]](#transcript-00-06-18-100) that it may not emphasize sanctification by the law.

[\[00:06:24\]](#transcript-00-06-24-101) What it ends up, though, doing is emphasizing sanctification, like the growth, so much so, it becomes really an introspective movement where it's instead of focusing on who Christ is and what he's doing, you're always focusing on your development

[\[00:06:42\]](#transcript-00-06-42-102) and where you're at in your development.

[\[00:06:44\]](#transcript-00-06-44-103) And then things that can start slipping in are memes.

[\[00:06:48\]](#transcript-00-06-48-104) So, Pietism will come up with With areas in which you can really kind of extradite the pietistic movement or the piety in your life?

[\[00:06:58\]](#transcript-00-06-58-105) Yeah, one brief way I describe it is Christian-centered Christianity, right?

[\[00:07:03\]](#transcript-00-07-03-106) The Christian, the Christian life, the Christian's performance, actions, attitudes, emotions are the thing that everything orbits around and are centered on.

[\[00:07:12\]](#transcript-00-07-12-107) I think with pietism, the real issue is the emphasis is off.

[\[00:07:18\]](#transcript-00-07-18-108) So, introspection can be healthy.

[\[00:07:23\]](#transcript-00-07-23-109) Hyper introspection is crippling.

[\[00:07:26\]](#transcript-00-07-26-110) Pietism tends toward a very hyper introspective posture.

[\[00:07:30\]](#transcript-00-07-30-111) We are always looking within.

[\[00:07:32\]](#transcript-00-07-32-112) So it is.

[\[00:07:33\]](#transcript-00-07-33-113) It's about, as we phrased it for years, even on a podcast, the obsession with and the hyper-focus on the interior of my Christian life, my affections, my performance, my obedience, my sincerity, my fervor.

[\[00:07:50\]](#transcript-00-07-50-114) That is pietistic.

[\[00:07:52\]](#transcript-00-07-52-115) And it is, like you said, Patrick, the real kicker is that the Christian is being pointed in on himself, on herself, rather than extra-nosed being pointed outside of ourselves to Christ, who is our sufficiency.

[\[00:08:06\]](#transcript-00-08-06-116) So that's pietism.

[\[00:08:08\]](#transcript-00-08-08-117) And it is, like John said, I mean, I think it's a slippery thing because there's enough, there's truth in it.

[\[00:08:14\]](#transcript-00-08-14-118) You know, and again, like introspection or thinking about my Christian life with an intentionality, these things are good to a point.

[\[00:08:25\]](#transcript-00-08-25-119) All right, let's talk about revivalism.

[\[00:08:28\]](#transcript-00-08-28-120) Definitely related.

[\[00:08:29\]](#transcript-00-08-29-121) I mean, in terms of Christian history, pietism shows up a little bit sooner in terms of where it hails from, you know, German Lutheranism and the like.

[\[00:08:40\]](#transcript-00-08-40-122) And definitely in Puritanism.

[\[00:08:42\]](#transcript-00-08-42-123) And then, of course, and then it manifests itself in the English Reformation, and there really is no tradition that does not have pietism in it somehow.

[\[00:08:51\]](#transcript-00-08-51-124) That's absolutely the case.

[\[00:08:53\]](#transcript-00-08-53-125) But revivalism as we know it, I mean in terms of historically, really arose with the awakenings of the 18th and 19th century, the great revivals at the end of the 19th century, etc.

[\[00:09:03\]](#transcript-00-09-03-126) But if you guys were going to define what is revivalism, take a step.

[\[00:09:09\]](#transcript-00-09-09-127) Well, maybe you can draw a similar distinction to the one you just drew, Justin, with piety and pietism, right?

[\[00:09:16\]](#transcript-00-09-16-128) Revival is good.

[\[00:09:18\]](#transcript-00-09-18-129) We like revival.

[\[00:09:19\]](#transcript-00-09-19-130) Revival is great.

[\[00:09:19\]](#transcript-00-09-19-131) We would love the Lord to send revival.

[\[00:09:21\]](#transcript-00-09-21-132) Revival is to revive, to give life, right?

[\[00:09:25\]](#transcript-00-09-25-133) We want the Lord to give life through His Spirit.

[\[00:09:27\]](#transcript-00-09-27-134) That's kind of what we're all about, right?

[\[00:09:29\]](#transcript-00-09-29-135) And he does it every Lord's Day.

[\[00:09:31\]](#transcript-00-09-31-136) And he does, you know, revive us yet again.

[\[00:09:33\]](#transcript-00-09-33-137) So, wait a minute, you mean revivalism is planned?

[\[00:09:37\]](#transcript-00-09-37-138) No, I said that God revives his people every Sunday, which I know we all agree.

[\[00:09:41\]](#transcript-00-09-41-139) Calm down.

[\[00:09:42\]](#transcript-00-09-42-140) Calm down.

[\[00:09:43\]](#transcript-00-09-43-141) Now, let Patrick talk as I talk to you, Patrick.

[\[00:09:50\]](#transcript-00-09-50-142) Looking at Patrick, Patrick.

[\[00:09:51\]](#transcript-00-09-51-143) Go ahead.

[\[00:09:51\]](#transcript-00-09-51-144) We're talking about Patrick.

[\[00:09:52\]](#transcript-00-09-52-145) Go ahead.

[\[00:09:52\]](#transcript-00-09-52-146) You can try to stick on there like you're right.

[\[00:09:54\]](#transcript-00-09-54-147) Tell us about revivalism.

[\[00:09:55\]](#transcript-00-09-55-148) All right.

[\[00:09:56\]](#transcript-00-09-56-149) Pick up where you left off.

[\[00:09:57\]](#transcript-00-09-57-150) Revival, good.

[\[00:09:58\]](#transcript-00-09-58-151) The Lord giving life.

[\[00:09:58\]](#transcript-00-09-58-152) Amen.

[\[00:09:59\]](#transcript-00-09-59-153) Amen.

[\[00:09:59\]](#transcript-00-09-59-154) Let's do it.

[\[00:10:00\]](#transcript-00-10-00-155) Revive us again.

[\[00:10:00\]](#transcript-00-10-00-156) That's a good thing.

[\[00:10:02\]](#transcript-00-10-02-157) What Revivalism does, though, revivalism does is it seize revival as something that can be accomplished essentially through human methods and programming, right?

[\[00:10:19\]](#transcript-00-10-19-158) Like, if you can

[\[00:10:22\]](#transcript-00-10-22-159) rightly, or not rightly, if you can affect people's emotions, if you can affect their affections using whatever means necessary, there's a pragmatic element to revivalism, right?

[\[00:10:33\]](#transcript-00-10-33-160) Revival is the goal.

[\[00:10:34\]](#transcript-00-10-34-161) So, whatever means necessary, if we can affect this thing, that's what we're going to do.

[\[00:10:39\]](#transcript-00-10-39-162) And we can bring it about by use of means, not ordinary means measures and such.

[\[00:10:47\]](#transcript-00-10-47-163) Historically, it also was an emphasis on moralism.

[\[00:10:53\]](#transcript-00-10-53-164) So it goes with it.

[\[00:10:55\]](#transcript-00-10-55-165) Yeah, shutting down

[\[00:10:59\]](#transcript-00-10-59-166) Liquor out of the Christian community.

[\[00:11:01\]](#transcript-00-11-01-167) Moral transformation.

[\[00:11:02\]](#transcript-00-11-02-168) Yeah.

[\[00:11:04\]](#transcript-00-11-04-169) So they definitely identified a problem in early America where there was a lot of drunkenness, there was a lot of debauchery happening.

[\[00:11:11\]](#transcript-00-11-11-170) So revivalism became basically a moralistic movement where Christianity was more about what you were not doing versus what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:11:22\]](#transcript-00-11-22-171) It's very, very close to pietism.

[\[00:11:24\]](#transcript-00-11-24-172) And that's probably why pietism ended up flourishing on its back.

[\[00:11:28\]](#transcript-00-11-28-173) Because revivalism, you could

[\[00:11:31\]](#transcript-00-11-31-174) feed each other, sure, yeah, absolutely.

[\[00:11:33\]](#transcript-00-11-33-175) But you, this is where you start to see fiery preaching that becomes kind of at the time the modern-day motivational speakers, where you're motivating people to change bad habits in their life and things that they're doing wrong, but

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-176) you're using non-gospel power to do it.

[\[00:11:52\]](#transcript-00-11-52-177) You're using human wit and ingenuity and fear tactics and really manipulation.

[\[00:11:57\]](#transcript-00-11-57-178) You're a lot of manipulation, where you know, this is where you get the anxious bench, this is where you get the sawdust trail.

[\[00:12:04\]](#transcript-00-12-04-179) This is where you get decisionalism to make a decision to change your life today.

[\[00:12:09\]](#transcript-00-12-09-180) Or rededicate.

[\[00:12:10\]](#transcript-00-12-10-181) Yeah, I mean, revivalism, you guys have said really good things.

[\[00:12:13\]](#transcript-00-12-13-182) I mean, there is a methodology to it, that's a component.

[\[00:12:16\]](#transcript-00-12-16-183) It is outside of the local church, generally speaking.

[\[00:12:20\]](#transcript-00-12-20-184) So you take the center of the Christian life and you remove it from the gathered church in an ordinary Sunday-over-Sunday way, and you put it in this special revival meeting where you have a very gifted, fiery preacher, strong

[\[00:12:34\]](#transcript-00-12-34-185) orator, and then what it becomes about is the individual person's experience.

[\[00:12:40\]](#transcript-00-12-40-186) The conversion experience, we referenced these things, referenced these things earlier, excuse me.

[\[00:12:44\]](#transcript-00-12-44-187) The conversion experience, the conversion moment, my own personal fervor and dedication and sincerity become the focus, and then the moral transformation of life thereafter is revivalism at its heart.

[\[00:12:57\]](#transcript-00-12-57-188) And what pietism and revivalism represent is a subjectivizing of religion in a way that is unhelpful rather than clinging to the objective realities of Christ for us, which is biblical and reformed.

[\[00:13:10\]](#transcript-00-13-10-189) A book I will recommend, I think, is an excellent treatment of pietism and revivalism over and against confessionalism, is by D.G.

[\[00:13:19\]](#transcript-00-13-19-190) Hart, Darrell Hart's book called The Lost Soul of American Protestantism.

[\[00:13:24\]](#transcript-00-13-24-191) It is worth a read, particularly for the pastors in the room.

[\[00:13:26\]](#transcript-00-13-26-192) I think it will be, if you've not thought deeply about some of these things, it might be one of those like aha kind of situations for you where you're like, oh my gosh, like this is putting words to

[\[00:13:37\]](#transcript-00-13-37-193) every experience that I've had in the church, perhaps.

[\[00:13:39\]](#transcript-00-13-39-194) So I leave that resource to you.

[\[00:13:40\]](#transcript-00-13-40-195) All right, so we've done our work here in trying to define pietism and revivalism and what it has done to religion.

[\[00:13:48\]](#transcript-00-13-48-196) But I'll launch it out this way for you guys.

[\[00:13:52\]](#transcript-00-13-52-197) How has pietism and revivalism ruined sanctification in terms of how we view it.

[\[00:14:01\]](#transcript-00-14-01-198) Because I think it has.

[\[00:14:02\]](#transcript-00-14-02-199) I think that sanctification, when you hear that word, what do you feel?

[\[00:14:07\]](#transcript-00-14-07-200) You can participate.

[\[00:14:08\]](#transcript-00-14-08-201) I know we're Reformed, I know we're confessional.

[\[00:14:10\]](#transcript-00-14-10-202) You can participate.

[\[00:14:11\]](#transcript-00-14-11-203) Dread.

[\[00:14:14\]](#transcript-00-14-14-204) Duty.

[\[00:14:16\]](#transcript-00-14-16-205) Stop being baptism.

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-206) Participate.

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-207) Sanctification.

[\[00:14:20\]](#transcript-00-14-20-208) When I say sanctification, what do you think?

[\[00:14:22\]](#transcript-00-14-22-209) What do you feel?

[\[00:14:23\]](#transcript-00-14-23-210) Like first response?

[\[00:14:24\]](#transcript-00-14-24-211) Somebody.

[\[00:14:25\]](#transcript-00-14-25-212) Work.

[\[00:14:26\]](#transcript-00-14-26-213) Work.

[\[00:14:27\]](#transcript-00-14-27-214) Fear, dread, growth, okay?

[\[00:14:29\]](#transcript-00-14-29-215) Spiritual disciplines, guilt.

[\[00:14:30\]](#transcript-00-14-30-216) Spiritual disciplines, guilt.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-217) Great.

[\[00:14:33\]](#transcript-00-14-33-218) I mean, this is exactly.

[\[00:14:34\]](#transcript-00-14-34-219) I mean, so I think that part of this is probably innate to us in our legal frame, but I think that pietism and revivalism, and you guys can weigh in on this, has doubled down on that legal frame

[\[00:14:45\]](#transcript-00-14-45-220) that we have.

[\[00:14:46\]](#transcript-00-14-46-221) And now, sanctification sounds scary, it's characterized by fear and dread.

[\[00:14:52\]](#transcript-00-14-52-222) I don't feel safe with God.

[\[00:14:54\]](#transcript-00-14-54-223) It's, I need to do this.

[\[00:14:56\]](#transcript-00-14-56-224) And typically, I'm failing at it.

[\[00:14:58\]](#transcript-00-14-58-225) I'm not doing it well.

[\[00:15:00\]](#transcript-00-15-00-226) And obedience becomes like this not great thing because all it is is this standard that's held over me that kind of condemns me all the time because I don't obey well enough.

[\[00:15:10\]](#transcript-00-15-10-227) And then sanctification sounds like a trip to the DMV.

[\[00:15:13\]](#transcript-00-15-13-228) And I think that pietism and revivalism is underneath some of that has exacerbated that problem.

[\[00:15:20\]](#transcript-00-15-20-229) And I would love to hear you guys tell me I'm wrong, maybe, or just talk about your own thoughts on this matter.

[\[00:15:26\]](#transcript-00-15-26-230) Yeah, I mean, both of those philosophies are inherently rationalistic.

[\[00:15:31\]](#transcript-00-15-31-231) It comes out of Enlightenment thinking that

[\[00:15:34\]](#transcript-00-15-34-232) man can improve man.

[\[00:15:36\]](#transcript-00-15-36-233) And so, by nature, what it's going to do is it's going to minimize God, it's going to remove the distance between the Creator and the creation.

[\[00:15:45\]](#transcript-00-15-45-234) It's going to make that easier for us to attain.

[\[00:15:49\]](#transcript-00-15-49-235) By making it easier, it makes us hopeless because we know deep down we can't really do it.

[\[00:15:53\]](#transcript-00-15-53-236) It minimizes sin and it maximizes us and our power and our ability.

[\[00:15:59\]](#transcript-00-15-59-237) So we can't pray things that, like David is praying, I am poor and needy, weak and needing to be revived.

[\[00:16:06\]](#transcript-00-16-06-238) Psalm 85, will you not revive us?

[\[00:16:09\]](#transcript-00-16-09-239) It says, no, instead of praying to God, I'm going to look to myself.

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-240) I can revive me, or that guy can revive me, or that meeting can revive me, rather than I need God to revive me.

[\[00:16:21\]](#transcript-00-16-21-241) And I often say we create a law where there is no law.

[\[00:16:24\]](#transcript-00-16-24-242) We can't maintain the law as it is written, we can't keep the law as it is written, and yet we add on to it

[\[00:16:33\]](#transcript-00-16-33-243) whatever it is in your life.

[\[00:16:34\]](#transcript-00-16-34-244) Well, if I read the Bible in a year.

[\[00:16:37\]](#transcript-00-16-37-245) And I'm not, if you want to read the Bible in a year, read the Bible in a year.

[\[00:16:40\]](#transcript-00-16-40-246) Or 30 years.

[\[00:16:40\]](#transcript-00-16-40-247) Charles is not telling you to not read the Bible.

[\[00:16:43\]](#transcript-00-16-43-248) So please do not hear what he's saying.

[\[00:16:46\]](#transcript-00-16-46-249) But again, it's crushing because, like, if I do this, I will be more holy and I will do good for a little bit.

[\[00:16:56\]](#transcript-00-16-56-250) And then

[\[00:16:58\]](#transcript-00-16-58-251) it's just like crash dieting.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-252) You slip up and you feel like a failure, and you sometimes, with Sanctu, you go the other way, or you isolate, you withdraw all those things.

[\[00:17:09\]](#transcript-00-17-09-253) Yeah, so you just use a word that literally is going in my mind.

[\[00:17:12\]](#transcript-00-17-12-254) Anybody, Anytime you see or hear the word diet or you're told you need to go on a diet, the reason why that's a cringe because there is the immediate effect where you do see some weight loss, and then

[\[00:17:24\]](#transcript-00-17-24-255) there's the guilt and the shame because, well, there comes a moment where it stops working.

[\[00:17:29\]](#transcript-00-17-29-256) And the reason we call it a diet is it's not supposed to be long-term.

[\[00:17:33\]](#transcript-00-17-33-257) Or you just can't do it anymore.

[\[00:17:34\]](#transcript-00-17-34-258) Yeah, you can't do it anymore.

[\[00:17:35\]](#transcript-00-17-35-259) This is how the experience of pietism is where you have this moment of explosion where you're seeing some positivity and growth, and then there's a crash.

[\[00:17:45\]](#transcript-00-17-45-260) And so there's shame and regret associated with it, and then we hide it, right?

[\[00:17:52\]](#transcript-00-17-52-261) We try and hide our lack of growth spiritually.

[\[00:17:55\]](#transcript-00-17-55-262) So, when you have a bad experience to sanctification, here's another one that's related to it with the same idea.

[\[00:18:01\]](#transcript-00-18-01-263) But what do you think of?

[\[00:18:02\]](#transcript-00-18-02-264) You don't have to respond, but what do you think of when I say the word evangelism?

[\[00:18:05\]](#transcript-00-18-05-265) Right?

[\[00:18:06\]](#transcript-00-18-06-266) It's there's this weird connection to it.

[\[00:18:08\]](#transcript-00-18-08-267) Both of those, we were just singing at the top of our lungs, holy, holy, holy.

[\[00:18:14\]](#transcript-00-18-14-268) We were evangelizing each other, we were proclaiming how awesome our God is, right?

[\[00:18:18\]](#transcript-00-18-18-269) This is technically what evangelism is.

[\[00:18:20\]](#transcript-00-18-20-270) And sanctification is the promise of our God going, hey, I know it's bad, but don't worry, we're going to make it better.

[\[00:18:26\]](#transcript-00-18-26-271) You'll learn how to trust me day by day, and it'll be sweet.

[\[00:18:29\]](#transcript-00-18-29-272) And it's new every morning.

[\[00:18:30\]](#transcript-00-18-30-273) That's what sanctification should be.

[\[00:18:32\]](#transcript-00-18-32-274) Versus I wake up every morning thinking about the weight of my responsibility to do something.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-275) That's what revivalism, pietism has created in us.

[\[00:18:41\]](#transcript-00-18-41-276) The joy of sanctification has been robbed.

[\[00:18:43\]](#transcript-00-18-43-277) Well, the joy of sanctification is robbed because the pietism and revivalism thing.

[\[00:18:47\]](#transcript-00-18-47-278) That, by the way, I think, again, I'm speaking for myself.

[\[00:18:51\]](#transcript-00-18-51-279) I'm not going to put it on all these guys.

[\[00:18:54\]](#transcript-00-18-54-280) The Baptist tradition in America was routed early on by pietism and revivalism.

[\[00:19:00\]](#transcript-00-19-00-281) And so, most of Baptist life that we have known on this continent is not what we're doing.

[\[00:19:05\]](#transcript-00-19-05-282) We are a throwback to Baptists in Europe over three centuries ago.

[\[00:19:10\]](#transcript-00-19-10-283) And that's not a badge of honor.

[\[00:19:12\]](#transcript-00-19-12-284) That's not to be arrogant or condescending.

[\[00:19:14\]](#transcript-00-19-14-285) It's just to be clear on the fact that we don't have that much in common with most Baptists in the States through American history.

[\[00:19:22\]](#transcript-00-19-22-286) All right, so having said that, I think that one of the reasons that sanctification becomes like you were just describing, Jon, is that this pietism and revivalism thing, it is inherently a kind of prove-yourself framework.

[\[00:19:35\]](#transcript-00-19-35-287) Like I'm constantly having to prove my legitimacy.

[\[00:19:39\]](#transcript-00-19-39-288) And it becomes this weight that I really was never meant by God to carry, and it becomes crushing.

[\[00:19:46\]](#transcript-00-19-46-289) And so it becomes this, like we've phrased it before, bro, the gospel of sincere obedience, you know, where my sincere obedience is really what's going to win the day.

[\[00:19:56\]](#transcript-00-19-56-290) And it is, I'm looking at myself all the time, and even the ways that I would engage the Lord, the question is not what's God-like.

[\[00:20:03\]](#transcript-00-20-03-291) The question is not, how faithful is He, and what's He going to continue to do in my life, and how is He patient and gentle, and He's going to continue to walk with me.

[\[00:20:11\]](#transcript-00-20-11-292) It's not that.

[\[00:20:12\]](#transcript-00-20-12-293) It's like, Well, am I engaging God well enough?

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-294) And am I engaging God often enough?

[\[00:20:16\]](#transcript-00-20-16-295) And am I sincere and earnest enough?

[\[00:20:17\]](#transcript-00-20-17-296) Or am I too distracted?

[\[00:20:19\]](#transcript-00-20-19-297) And it all becomes about me and how I'm doing it.

[\[00:20:23\]](#transcript-00-20-23-298) It's like what we do with the armor of God.

[\[00:20:25\]](#transcript-00-20-25-299) You know, well, how well are you doing and putting on the armor, brother?

[\[00:20:28\]](#transcript-00-20-28-300) It's like, that's not the point.

[\[00:20:29\]](#transcript-00-20-29-301) The armor is Christ.

[\[00:20:31\]](#transcript-00-20-31-302) You know, and so I think this is where we kind of, you can see how the pietism and revivalism just kind of takes us inherently in this direction.

[\[00:20:38\]](#transcript-00-20-38-303) And last thought for now, revivalism is inherently utilitarian.

[\[00:20:44\]](#transcript-00-20-44-304) It's a utilitarian view of the faith.

[\[00:20:47\]](#transcript-00-20-47-305) What's your faith doing is the question all the time that's asked.

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-306) It's a misapplication of James, you know, in how we would demonstrate our faith through our works.

[\[00:20:57\]](#transcript-00-20-57-307) That's not it.

[\[00:20:58\]](#transcript-00-20-58-308) But it's like, what is your faith doing to transform you and the society around you?

[\[00:21:03\]](#transcript-00-21-03-309) Is it inherently revivalistic question.

[\[00:21:06\]](#transcript-00-21-06-310) Yeah, I mean, going back to utilitarianism, utilitarianism says it's only good if it produces a pragmatic result.

[\[00:21:14\]](#transcript-00-21-14-311) Right?

[\[00:21:14\]](#transcript-00-21-14-312) What did we just sing before we got up here.

[\[00:21:18\]](#transcript-00-21-18-313) The end of gathering together, the end of the Christian religion, isn't that it does something pragmatically good for me, it's to behold your God.

[\[00:21:28\]](#transcript-00-21-28-314) And if that's the case, then i i need to stop looking to material means in order to accomplish that though go might use some of those means like bible reading and things like that but instead of looking to

[\[00:21:39\]](#transcript-00-21-39-315) that for the power for it we need to look to go and and that helps restore that means of sanctification.

[\[00:21:47\]](#transcript-00-21-47-316) I mean, it's been around.

[\[00:21:48\]](#transcript-00-21-48-317) I mean, it's just the Galatian heresy sneaking in the back door.

[\[00:21:52\]](#transcript-00-21-52-318) You know, I mean, the Galatian heresy obviously is just Jesus Christ plus works of the law for righteousness with God.

[\[00:21:59\]](#transcript-00-21-59-319) And then you get that down, and you're like, okay.

[\[00:22:02\]](#transcript-00-22-02-320) And then Satan just comes in the back door with a repackaged form of the Galatian heresy, which is now, Jesus Christ plus your good works for sanctification.

[\[00:22:11\]](#transcript-00-22-11-321) And Jesus Christ plus anything, I know we've heard the term gospel, you know, the mixing of law and gospel, but when you mix Jesus Christ with works, you just end up getting works before it's all said and done,

[\[00:22:24\]](#transcript-00-22-24-322) and really quickly.

[\[00:22:25\]](#transcript-00-22-25-323) And I just think that Satan has done a good job of just repackaging this Galatian heresy over and over and over and over again.

[\[00:22:31\]](#transcript-00-22-31-324) Well, that's because anything that you mix with Jesus or add to Jesus will become the dominant thing.

[\[00:22:37\]](#transcript-00-22-37-325) That has borne itself out over and over again through Christian history because that's what makes us distinct.

[\[00:22:42\]](#transcript-00-22-42-326) It's not Christ, it's this other thing that we're so geeked up about.

[\[00:22:46\]](#transcript-00-22-46-327) Yeah, and there's this really dangerous inversion that happens.

[\[00:22:49\]](#transcript-00-22-49-328) I was thinking about

[\[00:22:52\]](#transcript-00-22-52-329) You know, Paul saying, I planted a polis water, God gives the increase, right?

[\[00:22:57\]](#transcript-00-22-57-330) That's important, not just for the historical thing, but that's how this works all the time, right?

[\[00:23:02\]](#transcript-00-23-02-331) We as human beings plant and water how through the administration of the ordinary means of grace.

[\[00:23:09\]](#transcript-00-23-09-332) That's how the gospel is planted and watered, right?

[\[00:23:13\]](#transcript-00-23-13-333) But who determines what happens with that?

[\[00:23:16\]](#transcript-00-23-16-334) Who determines what increase comes with that?

[\[00:23:18\]](#transcript-00-23-18-335) That's the Lord.

[\[00:23:19\]](#transcript-00-23-19-336) By His Spirit, He accomplishes what He intends for that to happen.

[\[00:23:22\]](#transcript-00-23-22-337) We don't have any control over that.

[\[00:23:24\]](#transcript-00-23-24-338) That's His work through the Spirit.

[\[00:23:25\]](#transcript-00-23-25-339) What we are called to do is to be faithful, to give ourselves to the means he's ordained, the things he says, this is how I give Christ to people.

[\[00:23:33\]](#transcript-00-23-33-340) That's what we are to give ourselves.

[\[00:23:34\]](#transcript-00-23-34-341) And what What these distortions do is they flip it, right?

[\[00:23:40\]](#transcript-00-23-40-342) They basically abandon God's ordained means through which He says, I do this.

[\[00:23:46\]](#transcript-00-23-46-343) Like, I give people Christ through these things.

[\[00:23:49\]](#transcript-00-23-49-344) And they look at the fruit and they say, Well, we want more of that.

[\[00:23:53\]](#transcript-00-23-53-345) Like, we want to get more out of this.

[\[00:23:56\]](#transcript-00-23-56-346) And so we're going to pursue other means, we're going to make up new means to try to get this end result, which is not true fruit, it's false fruit pursued by means that can't produce anything true.

[\[00:24:06\]](#transcript-00-24-06-347) If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

[\[00:24:09\]](#transcript-00-24-09-348) It's called pietism.

[\[00:24:11\]](#transcript-00-24-11-349) Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy?

[\[00:24:16\]](#transcript-00-24-16-350) That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:24:22\]](#transcript-00-24-22-351) It's dread versus joy, really.

[\[00:24:25\]](#transcript-00-24-25-352) That's pietism.

[\[00:24:26\]](#transcript-00-24-26-353) Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

[\[00:24:34\]](#transcript-00-24-34-354) And we have a little book for you.

[\[00:24:36\]](#transcript-00-24-36-355) It's free.

[\[00:24:36\]](#transcript-00-24-36-356) We want you to download it.

[\[00:24:37\]](#transcript-00-24-37-357) We're going to explain the difference between Pietism and what we call confessionalism, Reformed theology, really.

[\[00:24:43\]](#transcript-00-24-43-358) How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when Jesus says, Come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

[\[00:24:51\]](#transcript-00-24-51-359) You can download at our website, just go to theocos.org.

[\[00:24:55\]](#transcript-00-24-55-360) There's someone asking me this question earlier yesterday about examine yourself, which is kind of in this train of thought.

[\[00:25:01\]](#transcript-00-25-01-361) A lot of revivalistic preaching and pietism uses self-examination passages.

[\[00:25:06\]](#transcript-00-25-06-362) What's interesting about those passages is Peter and Paul's, and particularly with Paul, they're accusing Paul of being weak.

[\[00:25:18\]](#transcript-00-25-18-363) This is 2 Corinthians 13:5.

[\[00:25:20\]](#transcript-00-25-20-364) Yeah.

[\[00:25:21\]](#transcript-00-25-21-365) So.

[\[00:25:21\]](#transcript-00-25-21-366) Go ahead.

[\[00:25:22\]](#transcript-00-25-22-367) Paul, we don't know if we want to follow you or trust your gospel because

[\[00:25:27\]](#transcript-00-25-27-368) you're kind of a weak man.

[\[00:25:28\]](#transcript-00-25-28-369) Now, these guys over here, they're powerhouses.

[\[00:25:32\]](#transcript-00-25-32-370) We think we're going to follow them.

[\[00:25:35\]](#transcript-00-25-35-371) Yeah, they're coming across super strong.

[\[00:25:37\]](#transcript-00-25-37-372) And Paul, his response to them is like, well, then you need to examine yourself because you got your gospel from me, this weak guy who doesn't know what he's doing.

[\[00:25:45\]](#transcript-00-25-45-373) Go ahead.

[\[00:25:46\]](#transcript-00-25-46-374) And 2 Corinthians 12 comes before 2 Corinthians 13.

[\[00:25:49\]](#transcript-00-25-49-375) Revolutionary.

[\[00:25:50\]](#transcript-00-25-50-376) That's helpful.

[\[00:25:51\]](#transcript-00-25-51-377) Because what does Paul write about there?

[\[00:25:52\]](#transcript-00-25-52-378) He writes about the fact that to keep him from becoming conceited, God afflicted him, essentially, with a thorn in the flesh, a messenger from Satan.

[\[00:26:00\]](#transcript-00-26-00-379) We don't know exactly what it was.

[\[00:26:01\]](#transcript-00-26-01-380) That's helpful.

[\[00:26:03\]](#transcript-00-26-03-381) And where he takes it, though, is that he will boast all the more in what?

[\[00:26:07\]](#transcript-00-26-07-382) His weakness, his need.

[\[00:26:08\]](#transcript-00-26-08-383) Like, because Christ is for him, and Christ is his sufficiency, and Christ is his strength.

[\[00:26:13\]](#transcript-00-26-13-384) And it's on the heels of saying all of that in the context of what you just said that he then exhorts the Corinthians to examine themselves as to whether they're in the faith.

[\[00:26:22\]](#transcript-00-26-22-385) It's not of, hey, what are you doing?

[\[00:26:24\]](#transcript-00-26-24-386) It's what do you believe?

[\[00:26:27\]](#transcript-00-26-27-387) Who do you trust?

[\[00:26:29\]](#transcript-00-26-29-388) Do you confess and acknowledge your weakness or not?

[\[00:26:31\]](#transcript-00-26-31-389) Are you casting yourself completely on Christ or not?

[\[00:26:35\]](#transcript-00-26-35-390) That's the question.

[\[00:26:36\]](#transcript-00-26-36-391) Not are you doing enough good works?

[\[00:26:38\]](#transcript-00-26-38-392) No, because he's already said

[\[00:26:41\]](#transcript-00-26-41-393) they're believing, starting to believe a false gospel.

[\[00:26:43\]](#transcript-00-26-43-394) They're not just denying that he's an apostle, they're starting to believe a false gospel.

[\[00:26:49\]](#transcript-00-26-49-395) And it's offense when Paul says, I am the chiefest of the weakest, because they want to see strength, and strength is

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-396) attractive.

[\[00:27:00\]](#transcript-00-27-00-397) When you, I can remember growing up and hearing revivalistic preaching, and you know, the compliment would be like, man, you really, you really got me between the eyes today, preacher.

[\[00:27:09\]](#transcript-00-27-09-398) You really stomped on my mail, man.

[\[00:27:11\]](#transcript-00-27-11-399) You just dirtied it up.

[\[00:27:12\]](#transcript-00-27-12-400) Like, all these things that you think are a compliment.

[\[00:27:15\]](#transcript-00-27-15-401) And someone came to and told me this recently, like, wow, man, you really, you really let us have it.

[\[00:27:20\]](#transcript-00-27-20-402) And I was like, that was the most gospel message I've ever preached.

[\[00:27:25\]](#transcript-00-27-25-403) And I realized he didn't know what to say.

[\[00:27:27\]](#transcript-00-27-27-404) Like, that's all he's ever known what to say.

[\[00:27:29\]](#transcript-00-27-29-405) It's like, thanks for beating us up.

[\[00:27:30\]](#transcript-00-27-30-406) I'm like, you should be encouraged, not beat up, man.

[\[00:27:33\]](#transcript-00-27-33-407) I had to stop for a moment and go, What did I do?

[\[00:27:35\]](#transcript-00-27-35-408) Did I mess up on this one?

[\[00:27:37\]](#transcript-00-27-37-409) So, this idea of strength and power, often Paul is pointing you away from that.

[\[00:27:43\]](#transcript-00-27-43-410) So, pietism and revivalism, it's this draw towards strength on the outside and on the outside of us.

[\[00:27:51\]](#transcript-00-27-51-411) And we want to present ourselves, you know, it's the kind of the measuring up against the wall, like, how am I doing?

[\[00:27:57\]](#transcript-00-27-57-412) And the more you look to the law, and the more that you look to the gospel, and you proclaim these properly, it is a reversal.

[\[00:28:07\]](#transcript-00-28-07-413) Your level is always going down, and the gospel is always going up.

[\[00:28:10\]](#transcript-00-28-10-414) And I would say pietism likes to even, if not, reverse those, and that's the danger of it.

[\[00:28:16\]](#transcript-00-28-16-415) Yeah, so, anyways, that's where the self-examinations come in.

[\[00:28:19\]](#transcript-00-28-19-416) Sure, right?

[\[00:28:20\]](#transcript-00-28-20-417) So, I'm all about self-examinations.

[\[00:28:22\]](#transcript-00-28-22-418) As a matter of fact, Paul loves to beat people upside the head with self-examinations in this way.

[\[00:28:29\]](#transcript-00-28-29-419) What are you doing?

[\[00:28:31\]](#transcript-00-28-31-420) Why are you trusting in yourself?

[\[00:28:33\]](#transcript-00-28-33-421) Stop doing that.

[\[00:28:34\]](#transcript-00-28-34-422) You need to examine yourself and say, Are you feeling confident because you're doing well?

[\[00:28:37\]](#transcript-00-28-37-423) Don't do that.

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-424) You're weak.

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-425) You're frail.

[\[00:28:39\]](#transcript-00-28-39-426) You just trust in Christ.

[\[00:28:41\]](#transcript-00-28-41-427) Now, that kind of self-examination, let it go.

[\[00:28:43\]](#transcript-00-28-43-428) This whole weekend has been that.

[\[00:28:45\]](#transcript-00-28-45-429) Or, you know, you pass judgment on people who practice such things, but you actually pass judgment on yourself because you too practice the very same things.

[\[00:28:54\]](#transcript-00-28-54-430) Do you think that you too will escape the judgment of God?

[\[00:28:58\]](#transcript-00-28-58-431) There's no way.

[\[00:28:59\]](#transcript-00-28-59-432) So then, what does He, and that's a very law and gospel thing he's doing in the early chapters of Romans.

[\[00:29:03\]](#transcript-00-29-03-433) I mean, that's how Paul speaks.

[\[00:29:05\]](#transcript-00-29-05-434) Or he writes to the Corinthians, and he, you know, there's this man who's having sexual relations with his stepmom.

[\[00:29:11\]](#transcript-00-29-11-435) You are celebrating that, you're arrogant, you think this is somehow like an expression of Christian freedom or something, and in fact, you should have put him out.

[\[00:29:18\]](#transcript-00-29-18-436) You're suing each other, it's not good in Corinth.

[\[00:29:21\]](#transcript-00-29-21-437) Have I not told you that people who practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God, and such were some of you.

[\[00:29:28\]](#transcript-00-29-28-438) But you've been sanctified and cleansed and washed by Jesus Christ.

[\[00:29:31\]](#transcript-00-29-31-439) Even there, He doesn't call their salvation, their legitimacy into question, even in the most strong words of warning that the apostles write.

[\[00:29:39\]](#transcript-00-29-39-440) Yeah, it's important that we remember these things and speak this way.

[\[00:29:43\]](#transcript-00-29-43-441) To your point, there being a real quick billion-dollar industry in the self-help industry, Paul acknowledges this.

[\[00:29:50\]](#transcript-00-29-50-442) He says, this man-made religion, this self-help, has an appearance of wisdom, but it's of no help.

[\[00:29:56\]](#transcript-00-29-56-443) Right, but these things have been around forever because they don't just lead to despair, they also lead people to pride.

[\[00:30:02\]](#transcript-00-30-02-444) And self-righteousness, exactly.

[\[00:30:03\]](#transcript-00-30-03-445) Well, yeah, and like the self-help thing, a couple things.

[\[00:30:08\]](#transcript-00-30-08-446) Other philosophies existed alongside Christianity.

[\[00:30:11\]](#transcript-00-30-11-447) Like Christianity was not in a vacuum.

[\[00:30:14\]](#transcript-00-30-14-448) You had Stoicism and all these other philosophies out there that turned oneself in on themselves.

[\[00:30:22\]](#transcript-00-30-22-449) If you practice these things, you'll be better.

[\[00:30:25\]](#transcript-00-30-25-450) And Patrick and I were talking the other night, grieving that we weren't finished with our notes yet.

[\[00:30:31\]](#transcript-00-30-31-451) And I was commenting that it's that simple reversal or flipping categories or however you want to phrase it that messes us up with pietism revivalism.

[\[00:30:40\]](#transcript-00-30-40-452) It's if I can be sent, if I can sanctify myself enough, then I might be justified.

[\[00:30:46\]](#transcript-00-30-46-453) Instead of, I am eternally, I have been justified.

[\[00:30:52\]](#transcript-00-30-52-454) Nothing is going to change that, and from that justification flows my sanctification because, again, it's not our work.

[\[00:31:00\]](#transcript-00-31-00-455) But you have to have justification first and then sanctification, and it's not you.

[\[00:31:04\]](#transcript-00-31-04-456) But we flip that in both of those categories.

[\[00:31:08\]](#transcript-00-31-08-457) I'm going to throw this out there.

[\[00:31:10\]](#transcript-00-31-10-458) This would be an interesting conversation.

[\[00:31:12\]](#transcript-00-31-12-459) You and I have been talking about there's also a negative flip side.

[\[00:31:17\]](#transcript-00-31-17-460) You're talking about it now.

[\[00:31:18\]](#transcript-00-31-18-461) Yeah.

[\[00:31:18\]](#transcript-00-31-18-462) What did I say?

[\[00:31:19\]](#transcript-00-31-19-463) No, I was just making sure you meant you and I.

[\[00:31:21\]](#transcript-00-31-21-464) Yeah, Justin, yeah.

[\[00:31:22\]](#transcript-00-31-22-465) There's a flip side where many of you have been in a pietistic culture, so your freedom out of that is amazing.

[\[00:31:31\]](#transcript-00-31-31-466) So much so

[\[00:31:33\]](#transcript-00-31-33-467) that any talk of ought to and responsibility becomes pietism or legalism.

[\[00:31:42\]](#transcript-00-31-42-468) Like, yeah, obedience is legalism.

[\[00:31:44\]](#transcript-00-31-44-469) If you're saying that, stop it.

[\[00:31:45\]](#transcript-00-31-45-470) It's unhelpful.

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-471) Yeah.

[\[00:31:48\]](#transcript-00-31-48-472) One of the things Satan loves to do is make cheap copies so that he can destroy the real.

[\[00:31:55\]](#transcript-00-31-55-473) We ought to, exactly what you were saying, pursue virtue.

[\[00:31:59\]](#transcript-00-31-59-474) We ought to pursue obedience.

[\[00:32:01\]](#transcript-00-32-01-475) Been trained in it.

[\[00:32:02\]](#transcript-00-32-02-476) Yeah, be trained in it.

[\[00:32:03\]](#transcript-00-32-03-477) Like 2 Peter, that make every effort.

[\[00:32:07\]](#transcript-00-32-07-478) For this reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue.

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-479) Virtue with knowledge.

[\[00:32:12\]](#transcript-00-32-12-480) Knowledge with self-control.

[\[00:32:13\]](#transcript-00-32-13-481) Self-control with steadfastness, steadfastness with godliness, godliness with brotherly affection, brotherly affection with love.

[\[00:32:20\]](#transcript-00-32-20-482) And then he says, For if these qualities are yours, the assumption, if you read before that, is that is that they are

[\[00:32:29\]](#transcript-00-32-29-483) yours and they are increasing, then you'll be kept from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord.

[\[00:32:36\]](#transcript-00-32-36-484) Right before that, in verse 3, his divine power has granted to us all things.

[\[00:32:42\]](#transcript-00-32-42-485) What piety, revivalism, all these materialistic ways of trying to do the Christian life do is say, add to yourself not Christian virtue, not self-control.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-486) Add to yourself Bible reading, emotionalism, fasting, or not drinking, not dancing, not smoking,

[\[00:33:02\]](#transcript-00-33-02-487) abstaining from sin.

[\[00:33:03\]](#transcript-00-33-03-488) Do not touch, do not, you know, demonic doctrines, Paul says in 1 Timothy 4, asceticism.

[\[00:33:10\]](#transcript-00-33-10-489) Do those things, and that's how you will be effective.

[\[00:33:14\]](#transcript-00-33-14-490) That's how you will be qualified for the kingdom.

[\[00:33:17\]](#transcript-00-33-17-491) Rather than look to Christ, who has given you all these things, now lean into him, press into him in all of this.

[\[00:33:26\]](#transcript-00-33-26-492) You want virtue?

[\[00:33:27\]](#transcript-00-33-27-493) Make it Christian virtue, Christ-like virtue in Christ.

[\[00:33:31\]](#transcript-00-33-31-494) You can't have that on your own.

[\[00:33:32\]](#transcript-00-33-32-495) You need the Spirit to make that.

[\[00:33:34\]](#transcript-00-33-34-496) I think, in our experience, or maybe I speak for myself, it's a dead giveaway because I still am a recovering pietist.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-497) I mean, just am.

[\[00:33:47\]](#transcript-00-33-47-498) I mean, I think we maybe all are.

[\[00:33:49\]](#transcript-00-33-49-499) And in one sense, a recovering revivalist and all those things.

[\[00:33:54\]](#transcript-00-33-54-500) So, for me, a lot of times when I'm assessing my own life or when I sin, it goes beyond a healthy conviction.

[\[00:34:03\]](#transcript-00-34-03-501) It goes beyond, yeah, Lord, I agree with you that this isn't good.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-502) Forgive me.

[\[00:34:08\]](#transcript-00-34-08-503) I know you're with me.

[\[00:34:09\]](#transcript-00-34-09-504) I know you love me.

[\[00:34:11\]](#transcript-00-34-11-505) And I know that you are going to complete the good work you've begun in me.

[\[00:34:14\]](#transcript-00-34-14-506) That's not my immediate instinct, at least, it has not been.

[\[00:34:18\]](#transcript-00-34-18-507) There tends to be this kind of guilt and shame piece.

[\[00:34:22\]](#transcript-00-34-22-508) All I can think about is myself, what I've done, what I've thought, what I've felt.

[\[00:34:27\]](#transcript-00-34-27-509) I feel a sense of a need to do some kind of penance to demonstrate to God, even in prayer, that I really feel it, you know, that I really care enough about what has just happened or what has

[\[00:34:39\]](#transcript-00-34-39-510) just gone through my mind or the way that I've just spoken to my wife or whatever it may be.

[\[00:34:45\]](#transcript-00-34-45-511) And that, I think, is a giveaway that in my own heart and mind the Lord is still working on me.

[\[00:34:52\]](#transcript-00-34-52-512) Because I think to agree with God and to know He's with us, to know He's faithful, to ask for forgiveness, to know that the Lord is faithful and just, to forgive, to have thoughts of Christ, and to be

[\[00:35:03\]](#transcript-00-35-03-513) filled with gratitude.

[\[00:35:04\]](#transcript-00-35-04-514) That Lord Jesus, you are not ashamed of me.

[\[00:35:06\]](#transcript-00-35-06-515) Lord God, you are not ashamed to call me your Son, and I know that you're for me and that you're going to do this.

[\[00:35:13\]](#transcript-00-35-13-516) That's a very different way to keep walking.

[\[00:35:16\]](#transcript-00-35-16-517) And that's actually sustainable to walk that way.

[\[00:35:19\]](#transcript-00-35-19-518) Imagine what this would look like: pietism revivalism applied to your home.

[\[00:35:24\]](#transcript-00-35-24-519) If you're going to do this with your kids, and we've all failed in this.

[\[00:35:28\]](#transcript-00-35-28-520) Did you really mean it when you said you were sorry?

[\[00:35:31\]](#transcript-00-35-31-521) no, no.

[\[00:35:32\]](#transcript-00-35-32-522) Did you really mean it?

[\[00:35:34\]](#transcript-00-35-34-523) I know that you feel bad, but you don't feel bad enough.

[\[00:35:37\]](#transcript-00-35-37-524) What does that do?

[\[00:35:38\]](#transcript-00-35-38-525) That crushes.

[\[00:35:39\]](#transcript-00-35-39-526) It does.

[\[00:35:40\]](#transcript-00-35-40-527) That's not what our father does to us.

[\[00:35:42\]](#transcript-00-35-42-528) Or the straight legalism.

[\[00:35:43\]](#transcript-00-35-43-529) Say you're sorry.

[\[00:35:44\]](#transcript-00-35-44-530) I'm sorry.

[\[00:35:45\]](#transcript-00-35-45-531) Right.

[\[00:35:46\]](#transcript-00-35-46-532) Right.

[\[00:35:46\]](#transcript-00-35-46-533) Yeah, just walk through the motions.

[\[00:35:48\]](#transcript-00-35-48-534) Yeah.

[\[00:35:49\]](#transcript-00-35-49-535) It's not producing actual change, it's producing external conformity.

[\[00:35:53\]](#transcript-00-35-53-536) Now, this could be taken to a place that I don't intend it to be, what I'm about to say.

[\[00:35:59\]](#transcript-00-35-59-537) Like, if you took this, if you took this and nailed it to the wall, it would not be elbow, because what I am not saying is that we should not exercise discernment, that we should not try to be

[\[00:36:09\]](#transcript-00-36-09-538) wise in how we engage one another.

[\[00:36:11\]](#transcript-00-36-11-539) But if you think about the early verses of Luke 17, where Jesus depicts this situation, where if your brother sins against you seven times in the day, and he asks you to forgive him.

[\[00:36:20\]](#transcript-00-36-20-540) You're to forgive him.

[\[00:36:23\]](#transcript-00-36-23-541) Like, yeah, that is just not how we think.

[\[00:36:25\]](#transcript-00-36-25-542) I mean, because what we would do, even here, potentially, brother.

[\[00:36:31\]](#transcript-00-36-31-543) Brother, you have sinned against me seven times today.

[\[00:36:35\]](#transcript-00-36-35-544) There is no way in the world that your repentance and your apology has been sincere at all, because if it was, you would have stopped doing it by now.

[\[00:36:44\]](#transcript-00-36-44-545) Right?

[\[00:36:44\]](#transcript-00-36-44-546) This is how we think.

[\[00:36:45\]](#transcript-00-36-45-547) Whereas Jesus doesn't depict that.

[\[00:36:48\]](#transcript-00-36-48-548) It's that, yes, as the sins continue to pile up, each time, if there is forgiveness asked for, you are to forgive.

[\[00:36:54\]](#transcript-00-36-54-549) And this is how the Lord is with us.

[\[00:36:56\]](#transcript-00-36-56-550) Because we tend to think that he's really disappointed in me, and here I am again confessing the same thing.

[\[00:37:02\]](#transcript-00-37-02-551) He is so fed up and done with me.

[\[00:37:04\]](#transcript-00-37-04-552) I know that eventually he's going to hold me at arm's length or maybe judge me.

[\[00:37:09\]](#transcript-00-37-09-553) Because that's what we do.

[\[00:37:11\]](#transcript-00-37-11-554) Yeah.

[\[00:37:14\]](#transcript-00-37-14-555) So, to your point, because there's a context to this, because Paul also says in Titus that if you warn somebody about being contentious and stirring up needless divisions, it says to have nothing more to do with them.

[\[00:37:28\]](#transcript-00-37-28-556) Warn them once, twice, three times.

[\[00:37:30\]](#transcript-00-37-30-557) Right.

[\[00:37:30\]](#transcript-00-37-30-558) Right.

[\[00:37:31\]](#transcript-00-37-31-559) So in the context, I think there's an understanding of like, hey, my brother keeps failing me versus a guy who's being purposely contentious, malicious, malicious, that's different, yeah.

[\[00:37:41\]](#transcript-00-37-41-560) And it's because we don't allow all of Scripture to inform us, right?

[\[00:37:45\]](#transcript-00-37-45-561) But I think the heart of that is this, my brother keeps failing.

[\[00:37:48\]](#transcript-00-37-48-562) Lord, it's in Galatians 6:1.

[\[00:37:49\]](#transcript-00-37-49-563) We find ourselves continually being caught or trapped in sin.

[\[00:37:54\]](#transcript-00-37-54-564) That's what I think Christ is describing.

[\[00:37:57\]](#transcript-00-37-57-565) Meredith Klein talking about theonomy, and I think it applies to pietism and Revivalism as well.

[\[00:38:03\]](#transcript-00-38-03-566) It says that when you deny covenant of works on the front end, it will always sneak back in on the back end.

[\[00:38:09\]](#transcript-00-38-09-567) 100%.

[\[00:38:10\]](#transcript-00-38-10-568) When you deny that Adam could have and failed to merit life, then you have to deny that Christ did merit life.

[\[00:38:21\]](#transcript-00-38-21-569) It's Romans 5.

[\[00:38:23\]](#transcript-00-38-23-570) And so when you deny that on the front end, you end up sneaking it in on the back.

[\[00:38:26\]](#transcript-00-38-26-571) We have to apply some type of merit, something that we have earned to our salvation.

[\[00:38:32\]](#transcript-00-38-32-572) And that's where pietism comes in.

[\[00:38:34\]](#transcript-00-38-34-573) I've now merited this by my personal devotion to Christ.

[\[00:38:40\]](#transcript-00-38-40-574) Yeah, the denial of the covenant of works or any form of mono-covenantalism is devastating for not only the sufficiency of Christ and the clarity of the gospel, but for this issue.

[\[00:38:50\]](#transcript-00-38-50-575) Because you will somehow, some way, tell people that they are saved by faith and obedience, faith and faithfulness, faith and good works, somehow.

[\[00:39:00\]](#transcript-00-39-00-576) Whether it's final justification or lordship salvation or federal vision or new perspectives on Paul, I don't really care what tradition you're in, we've all got it.

[\[00:39:09\]](#transcript-00-39-09-577) And you're going to do this, and it comes from that place, I think.

[\[00:39:11\]](#transcript-00-39-11-578) You're right.

[\[00:39:12\]](#transcript-00-39-12-579) Yeah, if we take Paul's wonderful admonition to us in Philippians, where it says, have this mind among you, which is also in Christ Jesus, that he humbled himself, right?

[\[00:39:20\]](#transcript-00-39-20-580) And the description is that our life becomes a gift to those who are around us.

[\[00:39:26\]](#transcript-00-39-26-581) We're laying ourselves down.

[\[00:39:28\]](#transcript-00-39-28-582) And what pietism, revivalism does is it puffs ourselves up.

[\[00:39:31\]](#transcript-00-39-31-583) Look how well I'm doing.

[\[00:39:32\]](#transcript-00-39-32-584) That's not the point.

[\[00:39:33\]](#transcript-00-39-33-585) The point of your life is not for everyone else.

[\[00:39:35\]](#transcript-00-39-35-586) Look at you and go, man, you're a great Christian.

[\[00:39:36\]](#transcript-00-39-36-587) The point of your life is that you're just to lay it down, and why?

[\[00:39:40\]](#transcript-00-39-40-588) Because this is what Christ has done for me.

[\[00:39:42\]](#transcript-00-39-42-589) And this, in order to do that, it does require something of you.

[\[00:39:46\]](#transcript-00-39-46-590) I mean, it does, it's not easy to lay your life down, right?

[\[00:39:50\]](#transcript-00-39-50-591) To love your wife as Christ loves the church, good night, man.

[\[00:39:54\]](#transcript-00-39-54-592) I can't wait to get to heaven so I don't have to try and do that one anymore because I'm so bad at it, right?

[\[00:39:59\]](#transcript-00-39-59-593) So, but there, but when you realize that, okay, the point of my life now, because that list you read in 2 Peter, those are all really beneficial to my spouse and to every person in here, you like it

[\[00:40:12\]](#transcript-00-40-12-594) when I'm loving and kind and gracious and forgiving, right, and sacrificial.

[\[00:40:16\]](#transcript-00-40-16-595) That really, really helps you.

[\[00:40:17\]](#transcript-00-40-17-596) And at the end of the day, if you understand who I am, you're not going to be like, Jon, you're such a great person.

[\[00:40:22\]](#transcript-00-40-22-597) That's not what you're going to do.

[\[00:40:23\]](#transcript-00-40-23-598) You're like, well, I know who you are, so God's got to be pretty amazing because that's not natural, my friend.

[\[00:40:29\]](#transcript-00-40-29-599) Right, pietism is not concerned with you loving anybody, it just gets you on self, gets you off Christ, gets you on self.

[\[00:40:37\]](#transcript-00-40-37-600) The things that pietism will have you do, even if you could do it, you still would be failing at the number one thing that actually God has called you to do.

[\[00:40:46\]](#transcript-00-40-46-601) You know, loving Him.

[\[00:40:48\]](#transcript-00-40-48-602) So you love Him because you love His son, and then we're called to love one another, and loving one another, we fulfill the law.

[\[00:40:54\]](#transcript-00-40-54-603) Pietism has you running around like a chicken with your head cut off, doing a bunch of stuff.

[\[00:40:58\]](#transcript-00-40-58-604) And even if you could be like, hey, man, you're doing really well.

[\[00:41:01\]](#transcript-00-41-01-605) My experience with pietism and my own heart also is the one thing that I'm never doing well when I'm wrapped up in pietism is actually being kind to people and gentle.

[\[00:41:11\]](#transcript-00-41-11-606) Dude, pietists are the meanest people on the planet.

[\[00:41:14\]](#transcript-00-41-14-607) They are.

[\[00:41:14\]](#transcript-00-41-14-608) They are the meanest species.

[\[00:41:16\]](#transcript-00-41-16-609) I can say that because I was one.

[\[00:41:17\]](#transcript-00-41-17-610) I was one and I still know a lot of them.

[\[00:41:21\]](#transcript-00-41-21-611) Yeah, and it really is a project of, we would never frame it this way.

[\[00:41:25\]](#transcript-00-41-25-612) And I don't mean this in a full-blown sense, but it has an element at least of self-justification.

[\[00:41:31\]](#transcript-00-41-31-613) Because really, what I'm pursuing these things, and the reason that I value them so much, I do think that there is sincere, I want to be devoted to God, I want to love God and honor God.

[\[00:41:41\]](#transcript-00-41-41-614) So there's that true component to it.

[\[00:41:43\]](#transcript-00-41-43-615) But oftentimes, I'm doing these things and I'm engaging in these disciplines because then I feel better about myself having done them.

[\[00:41:51\]](#transcript-00-41-51-616) And I think that's a dangerous place to live where I find comfort before God based upon what I'm doing or abstaining from goes, it goes bad places.

[\[00:42:04\]](#transcript-00-42-04-617) yeah,

[\[00:42:05\]](#transcript-00-42-05-618) I don't think many of us could imagine that a pastoral response to us might be, you need to stop reading your Bible.

[\[00:42:12\]](#transcript-00-42-12-619) You need to stop fasting.

[\[00:42:14\]](#transcript-00-42-14-620) You're looking to that for your righteousness, and you're not looking to it for Christ.

[\[00:42:20\]](#transcript-00-42-20-621) That to us, because of that internal desire for pietism and those things, sounds absurd.

[\[00:42:27\]](#transcript-00-42-27-622) That the answer might be to stop doing this thing that's not a command in Scripture so that you can actually look to Christ.

[\[00:42:35\]](#transcript-00-42-35-623) Again, not to say reading your Bible is bad, but it can be.

[\[00:42:38\]](#transcript-00-42-38-624) It might be.

[\[00:42:38\]](#transcript-00-42-38-625) It might be.

[\[00:42:40\]](#transcript-00-42-40-626) By the way, after this panel, please don't come asking us about this because we're going to talk about it after lunch.

[\[00:42:44\]](#transcript-00-42-44-627) Yeah.

[\[00:42:44\]](#transcript-00-42-44-628) Okay?

[\[00:42:44\]](#transcript-00-42-44-629) The whole Bible discipline.

[\[00:42:47\]](#transcript-00-42-47-630) And even how you would approach the scriptures, and you're doing it in the context of a church that has sound doctrine.

[\[00:42:53\]](#transcript-00-42-53-631) We'll talk about all that later.

[\[00:42:55\]](#transcript-00-42-55-632) All right.

[\[00:42:56\]](#transcript-00-42-56-633) Any just burning comment that you need to make that you're not going to be able to even enjoy your lunch if you don't make it?

[\[00:43:02\]](#transcript-00-43-02-634) I had one, but I forgot it when he started talking to me.

[\[00:43:04\]](#transcript-00-43-04-635) So clearly it didn't matter that much to you, Jon.

[\[00:43:07\]](#transcript-00-43-07-636) Anything guys?

[\[00:43:08\]](#transcript-00-43-08-637) He was so good.

[\[00:43:09\]](#transcript-00-43-09-638) I was overwhelmed.

[\[00:43:10\]](#transcript-00-43-10-639) My final just pastoral thought is that the Lord Jesus Christ is better than we think.

[\[00:43:16\]](#transcript-00-43-16-640) The love of God is deeper than we think.

[\[00:43:18\]](#transcript-00-43-18-641) And God is far more patient and gentle than we think.

[\[00:43:22\]](#transcript-00-43-22-642) And that that means everything and will carry the day as we are being sanctified by Him.

[\[00:43:27\]](#transcript-00-43-27-643) There is not going to come a day where He's going to be done with us.

[\[00:43:30\]](#transcript-00-43-30-644) He will always be with and for us.

[\[00:43:32\]](#transcript-00-43-32-645) And that means that we can live a sustainable life where we confess sin and agree with Him about it and rest in the love of Him, of His love for us.

[\[00:43:42\]](#transcript-00-43-42-646) So I pray that God continues to work these things in and through us all, and that we know a more peaceful and restful experience of sanctification as we continue to live this life together.

[\[00:43:53\]](#transcript-00-43-53-647) So, with all that, let me pray for lunch.

[\[00:43:56\]](#transcript-00-43-56-648) Do you guys want us to engage?

[\[00:43:57\]](#transcript-00-43-57-649) I have one comment.

[\[00:43:58\]](#transcript-00-43-58-650) Yeah, I remember.

[\[00:44:00\]](#transcript-00-44-00-651) The goal is not always to not be a pietist, this is why confessionalism is so helpful.

[\[00:44:04\]](#transcript-00-44-04-652) Exactly.

[\[00:44:04\]](#transcript-00-44-04-653) We are positively towards the confession.

[\[00:44:07\]](#transcript-00-44-07-654) Exactly.

[\[00:44:08\]](#transcript-00-44-08-655) All right.

[\[00:44:09\]](#transcript-00-44-09-656) I'm going to pray.

[\[00:44:09\]](#transcript-00-44-09-657) And then we'll be dismissed.

[\[00:44:11\]](#transcript-00-44-11-658) Father, we're thankful for this morning.

[\[00:44:13\]](#transcript-00-44-13-659) We're thankful for yet another day to consider the wonders of your grace and mercy to us in Christ.

[\[00:44:19\]](#transcript-00-44-19-660) We pray that you would bless our time over lunch as we enjoy one another and as we enjoy good gifts that you've given us in the form of food.

[\[00:44:28\]](#transcript-00-44-28-661) We thank you for how good you are.

[\[00:44:30\]](#transcript-00-44-30-662) We pray that we would continue to see the depths of your love and that you would strengthen us all in our inner man that we might know and comprehend with all the saints, the height, depth, length, and breadth

[\[00:44:42\]](#transcript-00-44-42-663) of the love of Christ for us.

[\[00:44:43\]](#transcript-00-44-43-664) May that happen for us, even as we spend time every launch.

[\[00:44:46\]](#transcript-00-44-46-665) And we ask it in Christ's name.

[\[00:44:47\]](#transcript-00-44-47-666) Amen.

[\[00:44:48\]](#transcript-00-44-48-667) Hey guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this, and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:44:53\]](#transcript-00-44-53-668) So, where do you go?

[\[00:44:55\]](#transcript-00-44-55-669) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:44:59\]](#transcript-00-44-59-670) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources are there.

[\[00:45:07\]](#transcript-00-45-07-671) Past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:45:13\]](#transcript-00-45-13-672) You can go check it out.

[\[00:45:14\]](#transcript-00-45-14-673) The link is in the description below.

---

### The Suspicion of Experience

*Published: July 2, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-suspicion-of-experience*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/pHeptNJUgSw)

In Reformed circles, we can be wary of the word experience—often for good reason. Emotional manipulation and manufactured moments have led many to question what’s truly spiritual. But Scripture is clear: God promises His supernatural presence in the gathering of His people. Church is an encounter with the living God—a true spiritual experience where our souls are fed and refreshed. In this episode, we explore how God meets us in real, tangible ways and why we should expect to walk away encouraged by Him.

* Reformed wariness of “experience” after emotional manipulation
* God’s promised presence in the gathering of His people
* Real spiritual encounter where souls are fed and refreshed

* [Grace Reformed Network](https://www.gracereformednetwork.org/)
* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Thou Shalt Not Misquote

*Published: June 25, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/thou-shalt-not-misquote*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/IuajlYEFXYg)

Today, Justin and Jon want to cover two passages that often confuse or even hurt people. One is Jeremiah 29:11—about your future. You might be wondering how that verse applies to you, especially if everything is going horribly—or even if everything is going great and you're attributing it to that promise. We’re going to talk about that verse, and also Matthew 7:1: “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” Our goal is to help you read these passages properly—and more importantly, to see Christ in them and trust in His sufficiency.

* Jeremiah 29:11 read in context—for hard seasons and easy ones
* Matthew 7:1 (“judge not”) without losing Christ in the text
* Seeing Jesus clearly in commonly misused verses

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Examine Yourselves!

*Published: June 18, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/examine-yourselves*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/mvJYSjcc8P0)

"Examine yourselves to determine whether or not you are in the faith." Have you ever heard those verses raised? We have here at Theocast—especially because of how we talk about Jesus, His sufficiency, and the reality that He has done everything necessary for us to have peace with God. People sincerely ask, “Brothers, what about the call to self-examination?” Jon and Justin are going to have that conversation today. Self-examination is good, but what we’re examining might be different than what you’ve been told. It’s not so much about what we do—it’s about what we believe and who we trust.

* The call to examine whether you are in the faith
* Self-examination that fits Christ’s sufficiency
* What we examine—and what we should not turn into a works test

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Thoughts on Costi Hinn and Cheap Grace

*Published: June 11, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/thoughts-on-costi-hinn-and-cheap-grace*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/Ctw0Fx4FvBA)

Throughout the years, Theocast has received all kinds of messages and emails. At times, you ask us to address certain topics, and while we can’t respond to everything, we do our best to select a few. This is one we wanted to talk about. We love our dear brother Costi, and in this sermon, he’s expressing a concern about Christian hypocrisy—people who claim to believe while showing no obedience. Jon and Justin want to reflect on this sermon, share our thoughts, and point out where there may be some law/gospel confusion. We also aim to interact with Costi’s concerns and offer some helpful insights from both Peter and Titus.

* Costi Hinn’s concern about hypocrisy and obedience
* Charitable reflection on cheap-grace accusations
* Where the sermon may miss gospel clarity

* [Costi Hinn’s Sermon on Christian Hypocrisy](https://youtu.be/cjWXT3Zz1RE)
* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Why Are So Many People Going to Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism?

*Published: June 4, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-are-so-many-people-going-to-eastern-orthodoxy-and-roman-catholicism*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/8IaoF5lQaWc)

Why are so many people leaving evangelicalism and turning to the Orthodox Church—or even to Rome? When you talk to them, you find that they’re longing for a sense of sacredness. They’re seeking a spiritual experience. They want to know that their faith is grounded in something outside of themselves. We have a lot to say about that. In this episode, we’ll explain how we got here—the state of the evangelical church—and why you don’t need to go to Rome or the Greek Orthodox Church to find the sacredness and supernatural power of the Christian faith.

* Why many leave evangelicalism seeking the sacred
* Longing for spiritual experience grounded outside the self
* Finding sacredness without turning to Rome or Orthodoxy

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Credobaptism or Paedobaptism? - Part 2 (w/ Adriel Sanchez from Sola Media)

*Published: May 28, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/credobaptism-or-paedobaptism-part-2-w-adriel-sanchez-from-sola-media*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/SrXWEbGrEVE)

On today’s special episode of Theocast, Jon and Justin are joined by Adriel Sanchez of Sola Media to continue a thoughtful conversation on the differences between baptizing believers only and baptizing infants. This isn’t a debate but a dialogue between three Reformed brothers who share a deep love for Christ and his church. We explore key theological distinctions in covenant theology, union with Christ, and the role of baptism as a sign and seal of God’s promises. The discussion touches on continuity between the covenants, the objectivity of the sacraments, and pastoral implications. Whether you're undecided or simply curious, this episode offers biblical reflection and gospel-centered clarity. All of it is rooted in humility, respect, and unity in Christ.

* Credobaptism and paedobaptism in humble Reformed dialogue
* Covenant theology, union with Christ, and baptism as sign and seal
* Continuity of the covenants and pastoral implications with Adriel Sanchez

* [Part 1 on Sola Media](https://youtu.be/HkbXrFuwqiE)
* [Core Christianity](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8oIOkAqgPGdCzmL7O9uwDDFZMskvI5yh) — Adriel Sanchez
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Why New Calvinism Is Not Reformed

*Published: May 21, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-new-calvinism-is-not-reformed*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/FEchtLmsxnA)

New Calvinism, while it has some good aspects, has also caused a lot of problems for many people today. Jon and Justin are going to have a conversation about how historical Reformed theology differs from New Calvinism—a movement that has really taken shape and gained a lot of traction over the last few decades, particularly in America. There are good things about New Calvinism, which we discussed a few weeks ago. But there are also key differences—differences we believe are vital for the clarity of the gospel and for emphasizing Christ for us. So today, we're going to talk about those differences and give you some helpful categories. We hope this conversation brings clarity, and more than anything, we pray you are comforted in the Lord Jesus Christ, who has done everything necessary to save you.

* Where historical Reformed theology differs from New Calvinism
* Gains and losses in a recent American movement
* Differences that matter for gospel clarity and rest

* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Law & Gospel (with Bob Hiller @ 1517)

*Published: May 14, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/law-gospel-with-bob-hiller-1517*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/20-z0X917CA)

Today's episode is a special recording from the 1517 Conference in Bentonville, Arkansas. Jon and Justin are joined by Bob Hiller, senior pastor of Community Lutheran Church in Escondido, California, and a valued member of the 1517 family. In this episode, we explore the challenges of balancing grace and law, emphasizing that the Christian life is about receiving Christ's work rather than striving for perfection through self-effort. We discuss the freedom found in the gospel, encouraging each other to trust in Christ's completed work rather than relying on our own achievements for spiritual growth.

* Balancing grace and law without self-effort perfectionism
* The Christian life as receiving Christ’s work
* Freedom in the gospel with Bob Hiller at 1517

* [Bob Hiller](https://www.1517.org/contributors/bob-hiller) — 1517
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Our Thoughts on John Piper and Falling Away

*Published: May 7, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/our-thoughts-on-john-piper-and-falling-away*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/X9WeY6ekw%5FY)

Recently, a video clip from the Coram Deo Conference began circulating online, featuring John Piper making comments about falling away from the living God—and how that warning needs to be preached. The message that one can fall away must be clearly communicated, with no punches pulled. Theocast was brought into the online conversation surrounding this video, and we've received a number of questions about our thoughts on what Piper said. Today, we aim to charitably engage with John’s comments and express our concerns about his message. We hope this conversation brings clarity and answers some of your questions. Ultimately, as always, our desire is to point you to Jesus Christ and to help you see from the Scriptures that He truly is enough to save you—and that you don’t need to be afraid.

* John Piper’s warning about falling away from the living God
* Charitable engagement with the Coram Deo clip
* How Theocast hears the warning without losing assurance

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Law & Gospel (with Chad Bird)

*Published: April 30, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/law-gospel-with-chad-bird-1*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/qgD2CVP90%5FY)

Today’s episode is a special live podcast recording from our 2025 Law & Gospel Conference! Jon, Justin, and our special guest, Chad Bird, discuss their theological journeys that led them to understand the importance of the law and gospel distinction and what it means for the Christian. After the discussion, the guys hold a Q&A with the audience!

* Theological journeys toward the law–gospel distinction
* What that distinction means for the Christian
* Live conference conversation and Q&A with Chad Bird

* [Chad Bird's Resources](https://www.1517.org/contributors/chad-bird) — 1517
* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/collections/books/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### God Really Does Love Us (with Dan Cruver)

*Published: April 23, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/god-really-does-love-us-with-dan-cruver*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/d0fHvLvhxEE)

As Christians, we often say we know God loves us and that Jesus died for our sins so we could be forgiven and accepted in Christ. But when asked how we think God really feels about us, we tend to get uncomfortable. If we're honest, many of us quietly wonder if God truly delights in us or if His grace was more of a reluctant necessity. Maybe He saved us, but does He actually enjoy us? Today, Jon and Justin are joined by Dan Cruver, author of Love Indeed, to talk about the deep, assuring love of God. Our hope is to encourage one another—and you—with the truth of how deeply God loves sinners like us.

* Knowing God loves us versus feeling He delights in us
* Reluctant-necessity views of grace that steal assurance
* Dan Cruver on Love Indeed and the deep love of God

* [Love Indeed](https://a.co/d/2VycVad) — Dan Cruver
* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### The Good and The Bad of New Calvinism

*Published: April 16, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-good-and-the-bad-of-new-calvinism*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/gat0fQxaenc)

New Calvinism: The Young, Restless, and Reformed Movement. This has been a significant movement—a major groundswell—in recent decades within the American and Western Church. What’s good about it? What’s maybe not so good? That’s the conversation Jon and Justin are going to have today from our typical confessional and Reformed perspective. There is much to celebrate, but there are also aspects where we might say, "Maybe not the best."

* What is good in the Young, Restless, and Reformed movement
* Where New Calvinism falls short from a confessional view
* Celebrating gains without ignoring the costs

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### The Danger of "God's Glory" without the Gospel

*Published: April 9, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-danger-of-gods-glory-without-the-gospel*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/7SPyHCK0Lcc)

If I asked you, "What is the glory of God?" how would you answer? The glory of God is a central focus in the evangelical church, and rightly so. It is a wonderful reality that must be understood biblically to avoid misrepresenting His character. God is glorified in creation, in executing justice, and above all, in saving His people. He has always loved us, bound His heart to us, and takes the greatest joy in our redemption. Jon and Justin will discuss how separating God's glory from Jesus and the gospel can be dangerous, as it risks misrepresenting His character.

* What the glory of God is—and is not—biblically
* Glory in creation, justice, and saving His people
* The danger of separating God’s glory from Jesus and the gospel

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### Let's Talk About Idolatry

*Published: April 2, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/lets-talk-about-idolatry*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/%5F5yM1uWh8JE)

If you're like us and were raised in the church, you probably chuckled when you first learned that the Israelites carried around small idols in the desert—almost like little good luck charms. They had the power of God on their side, the One who split the sea, provided them with food, led them by a pillar of fire at night and a cloud by day. Yet, they still clung to these idols. How foolish those Israelites must have been, right? But that’s not quite how the story goes. Idolatry and idol worship may seem like an Old Testament issue, but they haven’t disappeared. The powers behind them are still at work today. That’s exactly what Justin and Jon want to discuss. We need to have a proper understanding of idolatry and recognize that it remains a real danger in our lives.

* Israel’s idols and how quickly we judge them
* Idolatry as more than ancient good-luck charms
* How the gospel exposes and frees us from modern idols

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### How Could Lot Be Righteous?

*Published: March 26, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-could-lot-be-righteous*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/7d4pZStvj1A)

If I had to pick one person from the entire Bible and give him the title of "righteous" based on his actions, it wouldn’t be Lot. I’m sorry, but what that man did is not the definition of righteousness. Yet, that’s often how we think about godliness—righteousness as a comparison of who obeys the law. "I didn’t do these things; therefore, I’m righteous. You did those things; therefore, you’re unrighteous." But that’s not the definition used in the books of Hebrews and 2 Peter. They present a different perspective. In today’s podcast, Justin and Jon discuss why Peter refers to Noah and Lot as righteous—and what that really means.

* Why Lot’s actions do not look like righteousness
* Righteousness as law-comparison versus how Hebrews and 2 Peter speak
* Gospel righteousness that is not measured by performance

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

---

### The Most Christian Thing We Do

*Published: March 19, 2025 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-most-christian-thing-we-do*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*

[Watch on YouTube](https://youtu.be/-xSvQyidkN0)

What is the most Christian thing we could do? If you're like many out there, you might say, "Well, I would not sin." Fair answer. That certainly is a fruit of being united to the Lord Jesus Christ. But Jon and Justin offer a different perspective today. Perhaps the most Christian thing we could ever do is confess and acknowledge our weakness and then cast ourselves into the arms of Jesus Christ. We believe this leads to all kinds of good things, including freedom, joy, and peace. It is also a path to sanctification and transformation of life. If you're wondering how that could be the case, stay tuned for today's episode.

* Whether “not sinning” is the most Christian thing we do
* Confessing weakness and casting ourselves on Christ
* Freedom, joy, and peace that flow from that posture

* [More Than Forgiven](https://theocast.org/products/more-than-forgiven) — Justin Perdue
* [Theocast Community](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)
* [Rest](https://theocast.org/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook) — free ebook on faith vs. faithfulness
* [Partner with Theocast](https://theocast.org/partner/)

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:01\]](#transcript-00-00-01-1) What is the most Christian thing that we could do?

[\[00:00:04\]](#transcript-00-00-04-2) I wonder how you'd answer that question.

[\[00:00:07\]](#transcript-00-00-07-3) If you're like many out there, you might say, well, I would not sin.

[\[00:00:13\]](#transcript-00-00-13-4) Fair answer.

[\[00:00:15\]](#transcript-00-00-15-5) Certainly is a fruit of being united to the Lord Jesus Christ.

[\[00:00:19\]](#transcript-00-00-19-6) But Jon and I are going to offer a different answer, a different thought today.

[\[00:00:23\]](#transcript-00-00-23-7) That perhaps the most Christian thing we could ever do is to confess and acknowledge our weakness and to then cast ourselves into the arms of Jesus Christ, which we think leads to all kinds of good things, including freedom

[\[00:00:36\]](#transcript-00-00-36-8) and joy and peace, and actually is a path to sanctification and transformation of life.

[\[00:00:43\]](#transcript-00-00-43-9) And if you're wondering how that could be the case, stay tuned and listen to today's episode.

[\[00:00:47\]](#transcript-00-00-47-10) Hey guys, this is Justin.

[\[00:00:49\]](#transcript-00-00-49-11) Maybe you know that you are forgiven because of Jesus Christ.

[\[00:00:54\]](#transcript-00-00-54-12) But you're wondering, what does Jesus have to do with my Christian life?

[\[00:00:59\]](#transcript-00-00-59-13) How is he involved in my sanctification, even?

[\[00:01:02\]](#transcript-00-01-02-14) Or is he concerned at all with the ways that I struggle and the way that my life goes up and down.

[\[00:01:07\]](#transcript-00-01-07-15) Is there any comfort for me in Jesus when it comes to all of that?

[\[00:01:11\]](#transcript-00-01-11-16) Well, I've written a book called More Than Forgiven: How Being in Christ Changes Everything that deals with this topic from Romans chapter six.

[\[00:01:20\]](#transcript-00-01-20-17) You can find this book at theocast.org.

[\[00:01:32\]](#transcript-00-01-32-18) Welcome to another episode of Theocast, where our aim is to help you rest in Christ.

[\[00:01:40\]](#transcript-00-01-40-19) And we're going to have conversations about the Christian life, pretty much all of the Christian life, but it's going to come to you from a gospel-centered reform perspective.

[\[00:01:48\]](#transcript-00-01-48-20) So, we just want to pull off the clutter off the gospel and show you that Jesus is sufficient, all of Christ for all of life.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-21) that's the for today.

[\[00:01:56\]](#transcript-00-01-56-22) Uh, your hosts are Justin Perdue, who is the pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:02:01\]](#transcript-00-02-01-23) I'm Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:02:02\]](#transcript-00-02-02-24) I'm pastor of Grace Form Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:02:06\]](#transcript-00-02-06-25) And we are excited to be here with you today.

[\[00:02:08\]](#transcript-00-02-08-26) We've got a lot on our schedule.

[\[00:02:10\]](#transcript-00-02-10-27) So, Justin, we're going to jump into this as fast as we possibly can.

[\[00:02:13\]](#transcript-00-02-13-28) Two announcements for you.

[\[00:02:16\]](#transcript-00-02-16-29) We have a conference coming up with Chad Bird and Mark, so not Mark, Ken Jones.

[\[00:02:21\]](#transcript-00-02-21-30) Mark's my brother.

[\[00:02:22\]](#transcript-00-02-22-31) Shout out to Mark

[\[00:02:24\]](#transcript-00-02-24-32) and Mark Jones.

[\[00:02:25\]](#transcript-00-02-25-33) Yeah.

[\[00:02:26\]](#transcript-00-02-26-34) And it's going to be on April the 10th through the 12th, special hangout on Thursday.

[\[00:02:33\]](#transcript-00-02-33-35) All four of us are going to be lecturing, going to have panel discussions and a podcast.

[\[00:02:37\]](#transcript-00-02-37-36) Lots of time to hang.

[\[00:02:39\]](#transcript-00-02-39-37) So come support Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:02:42\]](#transcript-00-02-42-38) That's April 10th through the 12th.

[\[00:02:44\]](#transcript-00-02-44-39) And another announcement is: big deal.

[\[00:02:47\]](#transcript-00-02-47-40) Justin Purdue's book is out.

[\[00:02:49\]](#transcript-00-02-49-41) Hey, man, give us a quick overview of what it is and where they can get it.

[\[00:02:53\]](#transcript-00-02-53-42) The book's called More Than Forgiven: How Being in Christ Changes Everything.

[\[00:02:58\]](#transcript-00-02-58-43) It is a treatment of a theological category called union with Christ.

[\[00:03:03\]](#transcript-00-03-03-44) And what that means is that we have been united to Jesus through faith.

[\[00:03:07\]](#transcript-00-03-07-45) Everything that's true of Him is true of us.

[\[00:03:09\]](#transcript-00-03-09-46) And because we've been united to Him, He now conforms us to His image, He works in and through us, He keeps us unto salvation.

[\[00:03:15\]](#transcript-00-03-15-47) It is very much a treatment of all of Christ for all of life.

[\[00:03:18\]](#transcript-00-03-18-48) It is not just that we've been forgiven of our sins and now we go out there and try to sanctify ourselves and try to be good people.

[\[00:03:23\]](#transcript-00-03-23-49) It's that the Lord actually will do that work.

[\[00:03:25\]](#transcript-00-03-25-50) He's promised to do so.

[\[00:03:26\]](#transcript-00-03-26-51) He is faithful.

[\[00:03:27\]](#transcript-00-03-27-52) He will surely do it.

[\[00:03:28\]](#transcript-00-03-28-53) That kind of thing.

[\[00:03:30\]](#transcript-00-03-30-54) And so, again, Romans chapter 6, it's a great, great chapter by the Apostle Paul on that subject.

[\[00:03:35\]](#transcript-00-03-35-55) So I'm kind of drawing from that, trying to be pastoral and in application and just dealing with all the things that we all wrestle with and the ways that we feel internally and the ups and downs of our

[\[00:03:45\]](#transcript-00-03-45-56) lives.

[\[00:03:46\]](#transcript-00-03-46-57) Where is Jesus and all that?

[\[00:03:48\]](#transcript-00-03-48-58) You can get it at theocast.org.

[\[00:03:51\]](#transcript-00-03-51-59) All right.

[\[00:03:52\]](#transcript-00-03-52-60) Or Amazon, I trust.

[\[00:03:53\]](#transcript-00-03-53-61) I don't know.

[\[00:03:55\]](#transcript-00-03-55-62) If you want to buy it in bulk, you definitely want to our website.

[\[00:03:57\]](#transcript-00-03-57-63) You're going to get a better discount on free shipping and all that kind of stuff.

[\[00:04:00\]](#transcript-00-04-00-64) So, sure.

[\[00:04:02\]](#transcript-00-04-02-65) Justin, today is, I love these weeks.

[\[00:04:05\]](#transcript-00-04-05-66) These are my favorite kind of weeks when both of us are we've got something that's been brewing and we've been thinking about it a lot.

[\[00:04:12\]](#transcript-00-04-12-67) And we get on the phone on Wednesdays early just to kind of get caught up and talk about life.

[\[00:04:17\]](#transcript-00-04-17-68) And we both had something to talk about.

[\[00:04:19\]](#transcript-00-04-19-69) And they were different yet the same.

[\[00:04:21\]](#transcript-00-04-21-70) So, we're gonna have two episodes that are that are gonna build on each other.

[\[00:04:24\]](#transcript-00-04-24-71) So, not to not to take any more of our time, we're gonna try and keep this to 30 minutes.

[\[00:04:29\]](#transcript-00-04-29-72) JP, tell tell us, tell us about this subject.

[\[00:04:33\]](#transcript-00-04-33-73) It's an interesting title.

[\[00:04:35\]](#transcript-00-04-35-74) And what do you mean by this?

[\[00:04:38\]](#transcript-00-04-38-75) Talk to us, my friend.

[\[00:04:39\]](#transcript-00-04-39-76) The title is the most Christian thing we do.

[\[00:04:42\]](#transcript-00-04-42-77) And the Theocast listener will be intrigued by that title.

[\[00:04:45\]](#transcript-00-04-45-78) Where are they going to go with this?

[\[00:04:46\]](#transcript-00-04-46-79) Where are they going to do this?

[\[00:04:48\]](#transcript-00-04-48-80) I thought it was about what Christ has done, not what we do.

[\[00:04:51\]](#transcript-00-04-51-81) And you would be correct in thinking that way.

[\[00:04:54\]](#transcript-00-04-54-82) My aim in this conversation is a few things.

[\[00:04:58\]](#transcript-00-04-58-83) I want to clarify

[\[00:05:00\]](#transcript-00-05-00-84) something.

[\[00:05:01\]](#transcript-00-05-01-85) So we often get accused of being antinomians, and that's fine.

[\[00:05:07\]](#transcript-00-05-07-86) And one of the things that people will say about antinomians or advocates of radical grace, such as we are, apparently, is that we can fall into this trap of celebrating sin or celebrating.

[\[00:05:19\]](#transcript-00-05-19-87) Please interrupt.

[\[00:05:20\]](#transcript-00-05-20-88) Yeah.

[\[00:05:20\]](#transcript-00-05-20-89) I just want a t-shirt that says advocates of radical grace.

[\[00:05:23\]](#transcript-00-05-23-90) Bro, I'm guilty as charged.

[\[00:05:25\]](#transcript-00-05-25-91) I mean, I don't know.

[\[00:05:26\]](#transcript-00-05-26-92) I mean, what a shirt.

[\[00:05:27\]](#transcript-00-05-27-93) Grace is radical.

[\[00:05:28\]](#transcript-00-05-28-94) And

[\[00:05:31\]](#transcript-00-05-31-95) one of the biggest issues we have as fallen human beings is that we despise grace.

[\[00:05:34\]](#transcript-00-05-34-96) Somebody designed a shirt for us.

[\[00:05:36\]](#transcript-00-05-36-97) Go ahead.

[\[00:05:37\]](#transcript-00-05-37-98) Yeah.

[\[00:05:38\]](#transcript-00-05-38-99) So I want to clarify something.

[\[00:05:40\]](#transcript-00-05-40-100) It is not that we celebrate sin, it is not that we celebrate messiness in our lives.

[\[00:05:47\]](#transcript-00-05-47-101) It's not that we rejoice in the fact that we're broken and jacked up, whatever phrases you want to use.

[\[00:05:54\]](#transcript-00-05-54-102) That's not it.

[\[00:05:56\]](#transcript-00-05-56-103) But we do rejoice in, and we want to celebrate the confession of our weakness and the confession of our sin.

[\[00:06:04\]](#transcript-00-06-04-104) And so, not to bury the lead, perhaps the most Christian thing we do, and I'm thinking life of the church right now.

[\[00:06:10\]](#transcript-00-06-10-105) We said this in our service this past Sunday, and we'll probably keep saying it for a while.

[\[00:06:15\]](#transcript-00-06-15-106) Perhaps the most Christian thing we do is to come together as the body of Christ, covered in the blood and righteousness of Jesus, to confess our sins and to confess our weakness and our need of Jesus and to

[\[00:06:27\]](#transcript-00-06-27-107) cast ourselves upon him and into his arms.

[\[00:06:29\]](#transcript-00-06-29-108) So I want to clarify that distinction.

[\[00:06:32\]](#transcript-00-06-32-109) We'll talk some about it.

[\[00:06:34\]](#transcript-00-06-34-110) But then I also hope, Jon, that this conversation is freeing and liberating for people, that we can be given a better perspective on our lives, that we really are sinners who deserve judgment and wrath, but yet we live

[\[00:06:47\]](#transcript-00-06-47-111) every day by the grace of our God.

[\[00:06:50\]](#transcript-00-06-50-112) And we, I'll say this again later, we sit like birds in the hand of our Redeemer and we eat.

[\[00:06:57\]](#transcript-00-06-57-113) And in between, we sing songs in the sunshine, to use language from the novel, The Hammer of God.

[\[00:07:02\]](#transcript-00-07-02-114) And that's a very, to me, brother, is just a wonderful perspective on life and on life this side of the resurrection.

[\[00:07:09\]](#transcript-00-07-09-115) So I hope that's accomplished today.

[\[00:07:12\]](#transcript-00-07-12-116) And then lastly, I hope we can have some conversations about how rejoicing in the confession of our weakness or seeing and owning our weakness is a good thing

[\[00:07:25\]](#transcript-00-07-25-117) is really a path to transformation of life and is a means that the Lord uses in his sanctifying work.

[\[00:07:34\]](#transcript-00-07-34-118) And I think a lot of the ways that we have been conditioned to think and live in the American church, anyway, this triumphalism and the onward and upward and just always improving stuff.

[\[00:07:45\]](#transcript-00-07-45-119) Not only does it hinder real, just honest, transparent, authentic, pick your word kind of living in the church, I think it stunts our sanctification, stunts our growth, and it's a hindrance to the things that I think the Lord

[\[00:08:01\]](#transcript-00-08-01-120) means to do.

[\[00:08:01\]](#transcript-00-08-01-121) Not that the Lord is thwarted, but I think we throw up a bunch of obstacles that hurt the saints, frankly, and make the church a less safe place to be than the Lord intends it for us.

[\[00:08:16\]](#transcript-00-08-16-122) So, those are things on my mind, and I trust it'll be a good conversation.

[\[00:08:20\]](#transcript-00-08-20-123) Yeah, jump in.

[\[00:08:21\]](#transcript-00-08-21-124) You know, my brain always works in illustrations.

[\[00:08:23\]](#transcript-00-08-23-125) You know, they're um

[\[00:08:26\]](#transcript-00-08-26-126) sometimes, and I want to encourage those of you who are listening that you put a lot of effort into your Christian faith, and at times you feel as if Theocast won't acknowledge your effort.

[\[00:08:35\]](#transcript-00-08-35-127) I want to sit here and say, 'Look, I want to acknowledge your effort because it comes from a heart that wants to do what is right.

[\[00:08:41\]](#transcript-00-08-41-128) Right.

[\[00:08:41\]](#transcript-00-08-41-129) Well, you, you've been given a new heart that loves God.

[\[00:08:44\]](#transcript-00-08-44-130) Sure.

[\[00:08:45\]](#transcript-00-08-45-131) And delights in his law.

[\[00:08:46\]](#transcript-00-08-46-132) So, yeah.

[\[00:08:46\]](#transcript-00-08-46-133) Amen.

[\[00:08:47\]](#transcript-00-08-47-134) Yep.

[\[00:08:47\]](#transcript-00-08-47-135) And then, secondly, you know, JP, you're a guy that's been in the gym a lot.

[\[00:08:52\]](#transcript-00-08-52-136) I've been to some gyms.

[\[00:08:53\]](#transcript-00-08-53-137) I talk to people.

[\[00:08:54\]](#transcript-00-08-54-138) I've got friends who own gyms.

[\[00:08:56\]](#transcript-00-08-56-139) And there are people who go in, and they are probably some of the most motivated people on the planet, right?

[\[00:09:02\]](#transcript-00-09-02-140) And, dude, they spend all their energy and they are dedicated, but they never see progress because, well, honestly, they're putting all their energy in the wrong place.

[\[00:09:11\]](#transcript-00-09-11-141) There you go.

[\[00:09:11\]](#transcript-00-09-11-142) And they end up hurting themselves more than you know, they go, they go in there to get stronger and they end up hurting themselves.

[\[00:09:17\]](#transcript-00-09-17-143) It's not for lack of zeal or motivation or doing good things.

[\[00:09:21\]](#transcript-00-09-21-144) Like they're doing good things, they're just doing them the wrong way.

[\[00:09:25\]](#transcript-00-09-25-145) Doing them the wrong way.

[\[00:09:26\]](#transcript-00-09-26-146) So I think this is very true of Christianity, and that we can get really zealous, have all this energy, and start doing really good things, but yet they end up hurting us in the long run because, well, we're

[\[00:09:38\]](#transcript-00-09-38-147) not applying them appropriately and we're not putting the emphasis in the proper place and we're not trusting in the power like we should.

[\[00:09:46\]](#transcript-00-09-46-148) And you know, I said this to you when we were getting ready.

[\[00:09:50\]](#transcript-00-09-50-149) What's interesting about

[\[00:09:53\]](#transcript-00-09-53-150) what is a real Christian thing to do?

[\[00:09:55\]](#transcript-00-09-55-151) The most Christian thing you can do is to admit the absolute inability for all things in when it related to life and godliness, amen, and embracing Peter's words that God has given us everything by his divine power related

[\[00:10:10\]](#transcript-00-10-10-152) to life and godliness.

[\[00:10:11\]](#transcript-00-10-11-153) That's the most Christian thing you could do.

[\[00:10:13\]](#transcript-00-10-13-154) I am nothing, he is everything.

[\[00:10:14\]](#transcript-00-10-14-155) That is literally

[\[00:10:16\]](#transcript-00-10-16-156) strong.

[\[00:10:17\]](#transcript-00-10-17-157) Yes.

[\[00:10:17\]](#transcript-00-10-17-158) Yeah.

[\[00:10:18\]](#transcript-00-10-18-159) And it takes a lot of work to do that, Justin.

[\[00:10:19\]](#transcript-00-10-19-160) Like, you have to sanctification is the process of embracing your weakness more and more and putting your faith in Christ more and more.

[\[00:10:28\]](#transcript-00-10-28-161) That's the process of sanctification where we have less trust in us and more trust in Jesus, every single day.

[\[00:10:33\]](#transcript-00-10-33-162) People think of sanctification as I sin less.

[\[00:10:35\]](#transcript-00-10-35-163) That is a byproduct, but that's not sanctification.

[\[00:10:38\]](#transcript-00-10-38-164) And we've said this many times: that the Christian life is about far more than not sinning.

[\[00:10:43\]](#transcript-00-10-43-165) But that's how it's talked about often.

[\[00:10:45\]](#transcript-00-10-45-166) That's the impression we get, many of us is that the Christian life, the great goal of the Christian life, is just not sin or to not sin as much.

[\[00:10:53\]](#transcript-00-10-53-167) And like you said, that may very well be a byproduct or a fruit or an output.

[\[00:10:58\]](#transcript-00-10-58-168) It should be a byproduct.

[\[00:10:59\]](#transcript-00-10-59-169) Agree.

[\[00:10:59\]](#transcript-00-10-59-170) But even that, you know, we have to be thoughtful about how we gauge it because there's always sins at the level of the heart and the mind and the spiritual struggle and all that.

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-171) And so there's many, many things that could be said there.

[\[00:11:11\]](#transcript-00-11-11-172) But the Christian life really is about communion with God and a deepening sense, like you already said, of my need of Christ and of his love for me, his sufficiency as my substitute and as my redeemer and my

[\[00:11:25\]](#transcript-00-11-25-173) mediator.

[\[00:11:25\]](#transcript-00-11-25-174) And then that is going to result in all kinds of love toward the neighbor.

[\[00:11:29\]](#transcript-00-11-29-175) And then it will result in me because I have been united to the Holy One and I've been given a new heart and I delight in God's law, and I don't want to dishonor God, and I don't want

[\[00:11:39\]](#transcript-00-11-39-176) to sin and hurt people, then, yeah, there will be that fruit born in my life over a lifetime.

[\[00:11:46\]](#transcript-00-11-46-177) Real change will happen.

[\[00:11:48\]](#transcript-00-11-48-178) But we've said this many times, too.

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-179) One of the great ironies in this is that you don't actually affect change

[\[00:11:56\]](#transcript-00-11-56-180) most effectively by pointing at the change or by telling people to change, you actually affect change most effectively by heralding Jesus in the place of sinners, by heralding the love, the mercy, the power, and the grace of Christ

[\[00:12:12\]](#transcript-00-12-12-181) as much as possible.

[\[00:12:14\]](#transcript-00-12-14-182) And that will do the job.

[\[00:12:16\]](#transcript-00-12-16-183) And so the most Christian thing we could do is to agree with God about ourselves, agree with God about Him, His character, and then agree with God about Jesus and what He's accomplished and who He is for us

[\[00:12:30\]](#transcript-00-12-30-184) and then to cast ourselves into his arms to fall into the arms of christ who is the forgiveness of our sins and our righteousness and gives us eternal life and has told us that no one can take us

[\[00:12:41\]](#transcript-00-12-41-185) from him.

[\[00:12:42\]](#transcript-00-12-42-186) And I think it's sad, Jon, that for many people that I'm talking, we're talking American evangelicalism, right?

[\[00:12:50\]](#transcript-00-12-50-187) Because we're in the States.

[\[00:12:50\]](#transcript-00-12-50-188) If you're an international listener, I trust some of this will apply to you, too.

[\[00:12:55\]](#transcript-00-12-55-189) But I've had conversations with people over the years where they have effectively said

[\[00:13:01\]](#transcript-00-13-01-190) when they come to our church often that they're so refreshed by the ways that they're welcomed and greeted, even, but they're also encouraged by how one of the very first things we do every Lord's Day is we confess

[\[00:13:13\]](#transcript-00-13-13-191) our sins.

[\[00:13:15\]](#transcript-00-13-15-192) We confess that we are sinners and that we have strayed from the Lord's ways, that we have sinned in thought, word, and deed.

[\[00:13:21\]](#transcript-00-13-21-193) We have not done the things that we should.

[\[00:13:23\]](#transcript-00-13-23-194) And then we are absolved of our guilt and assured of our forgiveness on account of Christ alone.

[\[00:13:29\]](#transcript-00-13-29-195) And they will effectively say, my paraphrase, that, you know, in many churches where I've been, the last thing that I felt like I could do was admit that I am a sinner.

[\[00:13:42\]](#transcript-00-13-42-196) Like, not just in this generic sense, we're all comfortable to do that.

[\[00:13:46\]](#transcript-00-13-46-197) Oh, yeah.

[\[00:13:47\]](#transcript-00-13-47-198) You know, we're sinners saved by grace and all that.

[\[00:13:51\]](#transcript-00-13-51-199) But I mean, not just to acknowledge in a general sense, I'm a sinner.

[\[00:13:57\]](#transcript-00-13-57-200) I'm only human, right?

[\[00:13:58\]](#transcript-00-13-58-201) I'm imperfect.

[\[00:13:59\]](#transcript-00-13-59-202) I fail.

[\[00:13:59\]](#transcript-00-13-59-203) But I mean to confess that I am a real sinner who's committed real sins, and it is worse than I care to let on.

[\[00:14:08\]](#transcript-00-14-08-204) And this is my ongoing reality, even as a believer, because I do drag the corpse of the old man around with me.

[\[00:14:16\]](#transcript-00-14-16-205) And there is a lot of weakness here.

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-206) And there is a lot of, there are a lot of cravings and passions and desires that I'm frankly ashamed of and embarrassed by, but this is true of me.

[\[00:14:28\]](#transcript-00-14-28-207) And I am very thankful that the Lord has done something about this and that we collectively together can gather and acknowledge this and confess it and say it out loud, and then together are assured of God's love and

[\[00:14:41\]](#transcript-00-14-41-208) mercy and forgiveness, His compassion, His grace.

[\[00:14:44\]](#transcript-00-14-44-209) And we're told that we're going to make it because Christ has done it.

[\[00:14:48\]](#transcript-00-14-48-210) It's wonderful.

[\[00:14:49\]](#transcript-00-14-49-211) It's freeing, too.

[\[00:14:50\]](#transcript-00-14-50-212) We're going to get there in a minute, but it's a wonderful thing.

[\[00:14:53\]](#transcript-00-14-53-213) And it's the most Christian thing we can do.

[\[00:14:55\]](#transcript-00-14-55-214) Well, and it would be, I think it's the, it's a, it's safe to say only Christians do this, like, no other religions do this.

[\[00:15:04\]](#transcript-00-15-04-215) They don't promote weakness, right?

[\[00:15:06\]](#transcript-00-15-06-216) They promote strength.

[\[00:15:07\]](#transcript-00-15-07-217) I love this Psalm - Psalm 51, right?

[\[00:15:10\]](#transcript-00-15-10-218) David finds himself in the midst of his weakness.

[\[00:15:12\]](#transcript-00-15-12-219) Like, wow, I am a weak man.

[\[00:15:14\]](#transcript-00-15-14-220) Like, there's that final moment where the problem is.

[\[00:15:16\]](#transcript-00-15-16-221) Wretched man that I am.

[\[00:15:18\]](#transcript-00-15-18-222) He's like, Thou art the man, you know.

[\[00:15:20\]](#transcript-00-15-20-223) Yes, and I love this.

[\[00:15:22\]](#transcript-00-15-22-224) I like how you went to the King James there, Jon.

[\[00:15:24\]](#transcript-00-15-24-225) That was good.

[\[00:15:26\]](#transcript-00-15-26-226) Hey, man, what's that old IFB coming out in you, dude?

[\[00:15:29\]](#transcript-00-15-29-227) Born and raised, man.

[\[00:15:30\]](#transcript-00-15-30-228) It's funny.

[\[00:15:30\]](#transcript-00-15-30-229) I quote it all the time in my sermons, not even realizing it.

[\[00:15:32\]](#transcript-00-15-32-230) Oh, come on, man.

[\[00:15:33\]](#transcript-00-15-33-231) It's hey, listen.

[\[00:15:34\]](#transcript-00-15-34-232) Sometimes the way the King James worded it, it's one of the best translations.

[\[00:15:37\]](#transcript-00-15-37-233) I will give credit to where credit's due.

[\[00:15:39\]](#transcript-00-15-39-234) It did, it fell from heaven.

[\[00:15:40\]](#transcript-00-15-40-235) 60 years.

[\[00:15:43\]](#transcript-00-15-43-236) We all know.

[\[00:15:44\]](#transcript-00-15-44-237) Now you're offending people.

[\[00:15:45\]](#transcript-00-15-45-238) We all know.

[\[00:15:45\]](#transcript-00-15-45-239) King ain't ain't it, amen.

[\[00:15:49\]](#transcript-00-15-49-240) All right, come on, distracted.

[\[00:15:50\]](#transcript-00-15-50-241) Come on.

[\[00:15:51\]](#transcript-00-15-51-242) I don't even know what I'm going to say.

[\[00:15:52\]](#transcript-00-15-52-243) Sorry.

[\[00:15:52\]](#transcript-00-15-52-244) So, what's interesting, Justin, is that there's going back to the gym illustration, we can feel this guilt and shame.

[\[00:15:58\]](#transcript-00-15-58-245) And the first thing we want to do is clean ourselves up, right?

[\[00:16:02\]](#transcript-00-16-02-246) So we assume more effort creates sanctification.

[\[00:16:06\]](#transcript-00-16-06-247) And man, Paul couldn't be more clear that the law cannot sanctify you.

[\[00:16:11\]](#transcript-00-16-11-248) It just can't do it.

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-249) And that means you trying to obey the law can't sanctify you.

[\[00:16:16\]](#transcript-00-16-16-250) Listen, Justin and I think are you trying to flee from sin or whatever?

[\[00:16:20\]](#transcript-00-16-20-251) Exactly.

[\[00:16:20\]](#transcript-00-16-20-252) Right.

[\[00:16:21\]](#transcript-00-16-21-253) So, Justin and I believe you should obey, and it's expected of the believer.

[\[00:16:26\]](#transcript-00-16-26-254) I mean, Peter, literally, like, add to your faith all of these virtues, and I'm all for it.

[\[00:16:30\]](#transcript-00-16-30-255) Amen.

[\[00:16:30\]](#transcript-00-16-30-256) And I, and I want that in my life, and I want that in yours.

[\[00:16:33\]](#transcript-00-16-33-257) But when you find yourself in the midst of failure, which is the constant experience of the Christian life, you need to have the same heart as David here.

[\[00:16:41\]](#transcript-00-16-41-258) Listen to what he says when he

[\[00:16:46\]](#transcript-00-16-46-259) When falls himself at the bottom of the pit, he does not say, I will clean my heart before you, and I will renew my spirit.

[\[00:16:55\]](#transcript-00-16-55-260) He says, Create in me a clean heart.

[\[00:16:58\]](#transcript-00-16-58-261) He's asking God.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-262) And you renew a spirit, a right spirit within me.

[\[00:17:04\]](#transcript-00-17-04-263) Right.

[\[00:17:04\]](#transcript-00-17-04-264) And then he says, verse 12: Restore to me the joy of your salvation and uphold me with your willing spirit.

[\[00:17:12\]](#transcript-00-17-12-265) So, where all of this comes from is always our cleansing and our joy and our restoration is never in willpower of the flesh or of self.

[\[00:17:24\]](#transcript-00-17-24-266) It's always by means of God and his gospel.

[\[00:17:26\]](#transcript-00-17-26-267) Because why can David ask for his heart to be cleansed and our new spirit to be renewed in him?

[\[00:17:33\]](#transcript-00-17-33-268) Because Jesus has promised it through what?

[\[00:17:36\]](#transcript-00-17-36-269) His forgiveness in the cross and his righteousness in his life.

[\[00:17:39\]](#transcript-00-17-39-270) That's how the spirit is renewed in us.

[\[00:17:41\]](#transcript-00-17-41-271) The righteousness, once again, we walk by faith.

[\[00:17:43\]](#transcript-00-17-43-272) We're going to talk about this next week.

[\[00:17:45\]](#transcript-00-17-45-273) But I think it's so healthy to be reminded that when we find ourselves in sin, we don't fall into the trap, which Justin, I think this is how Satan keeps people in discouragement.

[\[00:17:56\]](#transcript-00-17-56-274) Sure, is they keep trying to cleanse themselves out of it.

[\[00:17:59\]](#transcript-00-17-59-275) And we confess this is why he says, with boldness in a time of need, run to the Father, right?

[\[00:18:04\]](#transcript-00-18-04-276) Hebrews 4.

[\[00:18:05\]](#transcript-00-18-05-277) Run to the Father and ask for mercy and grace.

[\[00:18:08\]](#transcript-00-18-08-278) No, amen.

[\[00:18:08\]](#transcript-00-18-08-279) If you're new to theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

[\[00:18:12\]](#transcript-00-18-12-280) It's called pietism.

[\[00:18:13\]](#transcript-00-18-13-281) Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy.

[\[00:18:19\]](#transcript-00-18-19-282) That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:18:25\]](#transcript-00-18-25-283) It's dread versus joy, really.

[\[00:18:27\]](#transcript-00-18-27-284) That's pietism.

[\[00:18:28\]](#transcript-00-18-28-285) Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

[\[00:18:37\]](#transcript-00-18-37-286) And we have a little book for you.

[\[00:18:38\]](#transcript-00-18-38-287) It's free.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-288) We want you to download it, and we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism, reformed theology, really, how it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when Jesus says,

[\[00:18:50\]](#transcript-00-18-50-289) Come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

[\[00:18:54\]](#transcript-00-18-54-290) You can download at our website.

[\[00:18:55\]](#transcript-00-18-55-291) Just go to theocas.org.

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-292) We talk like this with our church.

[\[00:18:59\]](#transcript-00-18-59-293) Only God does the work of sanctification.

[\[00:19:02\]](#transcript-00-19-02-294) We do not sanctify ourselves because God is the only intrinsically holy being in the universe.

[\[00:19:07\]](#transcript-00-19-07-295) And so, if anyone else or anything else is going to be holy, the Lord must make it so.

[\[00:19:12\]](#transcript-00-19-12-296) So, we are monergistic when it comes to sanctification in that regard.

[\[00:19:15\]](#transcript-00-19-15-297) God does the work.

[\[00:19:16\]](#transcript-00-19-16-298) Now, we make effort.

[\[00:19:18\]](#transcript-00-19-18-299) Like we said, grace is not opposed to effort, it's opposed to earning, right?

[\[00:19:22\]](#transcript-00-19-22-300) That's important.

[\[00:19:23\]](#transcript-00-19-23-301) And so we make effort in the Christian life unto Christian maturity.

[\[00:19:27\]](#transcript-00-19-27-302) And so we'll draw a distinction between those two things.

[\[00:19:30\]](#transcript-00-19-30-303) We don't sanctify ourselves, but we do put in effort unto Christian maturity.

[\[00:19:35\]](#transcript-00-19-35-304) There are any number of things that we can do and apply for that purpose.

[\[00:19:39\]](#transcript-00-19-39-305) So that's good.

[\[00:19:40\]](#transcript-00-19-40-306) Another comment to make is that I think along the lines of things you were just saying, people get things twisted here.

[\[00:19:47\]](#transcript-00-19-47-307) We think, now, this is true in the world at a common kingdom level, but it is not true in the Christian life.

[\[00:19:54\]](#transcript-00-19-54-308) We think that the opposite of vice is virtue.

[\[00:19:58\]](#transcript-00-19-58-309) In the world, that's true.

[\[00:20:00\]](#transcript-00-20-00-310) But in the Christian life, that's actually not exactly true.

[\[00:20:02\]](#transcript-00-20-02-311) The opposite of vice as a Christian is actually Jesus for me and casting myself on him.

[\[00:20:10\]](#transcript-00-20-10-312) So think Philippians 3: the way that Paul, what does Paul renounce there?

[\[00:20:15\]](#transcript-00-20-15-313) Philippians 3, like 3 to 11.

[\[00:20:18\]](#transcript-00-20-18-314) He renounces not his vice, but his virtue.

[\[00:20:22\]](#transcript-00-20-22-315) So in the world, it's like, well, yeah, I need to renounce my vice and I need to pursue virtue.

[\[00:20:27\]](#transcript-00-20-27-316) And where I'm not saying don't pursue virtue, but I'm saying put that in the right place.

[\[00:20:31\]](#transcript-00-20-31-317) That effort unto maturity is fine.

[\[00:20:34\]](#transcript-00-20-34-318) But when it comes to being godly and when it comes to being righteous, you renounce not just your vice, you renounce your virtue for the sake of being found in Christ Jesus by faith, so that you might have

[\[00:20:46\]](#transcript-00-20-46-319) a righteousness that is not according to the law, but a righteousness that is found by faith in Jesus Christ.

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-320) That is what it is to be a Christian.

[\[00:20:54\]](#transcript-00-20-54-321) And so, even in confessing the things that we're talking about, in confessing our weakness, and confessing our need and our inadequacy, we are reinforcing those great truths.

[\[00:21:04\]](#transcript-00-21-04-322) And kind of two other places I want to take this conversation.

[\[00:21:08\]](#transcript-00-21-08-323) Sure.

[\[00:21:08\]](#transcript-00-21-08-324) Yeah.

[\[00:21:10\]](#transcript-00-21-10-325) I don't really care which we get to first.

[\[00:21:12\]](#transcript-00-21-12-326) This actually logically, in my mind, makes the most sense right now.

[\[00:21:15\]](#transcript-00-21-15-327) When we get this right, and it's not about being right for being right's sake, but when we get this correct, and in the life of the church, this is the consistent drumbeat.

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-328) I think that it makes the church a safer place for sinners.

[\[00:21:29\]](#transcript-00-21-29-329) Like we can be honest about our frame and we can live openly with one another as brothers and sisters in the Lord in a way that will be used of God.

[\[00:21:38\]](#transcript-00-21-38-330) And I think that the result of having this kind of resting heart rate in the church, where the most Christian thing we do is what we're talking about today.

[\[00:21:45\]](#transcript-00-21-45-331) I think it is actually used of God unto sanctification.

[\[00:21:50\]](#transcript-00-21-50-332) It produces the fruits of godliness in the saints very effectively, because we're no longer posturing so much.

[\[00:22:01\]](#transcript-00-22-01-333) We're no longer living behind facades.

[\[00:22:03\]](#transcript-00-22-03-334) We no longer feel the need to wear a mask and have it all together and say the right things because we know how to speak the Christian, the Christian talk.

[\[00:22:12\]](#transcript-00-22-12-335) Like I know how to talk well.

[\[00:22:14\]](#transcript-00-22-14-336) I know how to answer the questions well.

[\[00:22:16\]](#transcript-00-22-16-337) I know how to say the thing that sounds really good, though.

[\[00:22:19\]](#transcript-00-22-19-338) I know deep down there's a lot more going on in here that I don't even know how to approach with you because I have no idea what you're going to think about me.

[\[00:22:24\]](#transcript-00-22-24-339) Like we get rid of all that stuff and we're able to actually engage at the heart and mind level and say what's really going on.

[\[00:22:33\]](#transcript-00-22-33-340) And then it's amazing how over the course of years and decades, as we have relationships like that in the church, we live in the fellowship of the saints, and we apply the means of grace, the Lord does remarkable

[\[00:22:44\]](#transcript-00-22-44-341) work in his people.

[\[00:22:45\]](#transcript-00-22-45-342) So, this actually leads to godliness and leads to sanctification and transformation of life.

[\[00:22:51\]](#transcript-00-22-51-343) So, no one out there should hear us saying this and think that, oh, well, you guys are just trying to coddle people in their sin.

[\[00:22:59\]](#transcript-00-22-59-344) no.

[\[00:22:59\]](#transcript-00-22-59-345) I mean, this is the path not only to freedom, which we're going to get to in a minute, and peace and joy, but it is actually the path to transformation and sanctification as well.

[\[00:23:11\]](#transcript-00-23-11-346) So, I quote this verse a lot.

[\[00:23:12\]](#transcript-00-23-12-347) When I preach James, this was a practice that we implemented, and it's a practice that the Reformed Church has been utilizing for years.

[\[00:23:22\]](#transcript-00-23-22-348) But it's James 5:16, and this whole section is on praying for each other, right?

[\[00:23:26\]](#transcript-00-23-26-349) Say, yeah, yeah.

[\[00:23:27\]](#transcript-00-23-27-350) It says, Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you might be healed.

[\[00:23:32\]](#transcript-00-23-32-351) I think he is talking about spiritual sickness here.

[\[00:23:35\]](#transcript-00-23-35-352) Like, there are people who are indulging in their sins, they're hiding their sins, they're.

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-353) And he says, I love this.

[\[00:23:40\]](#transcript-00-23-40-354) He doesn't say confess them.

[\[00:23:42\]](#transcript-00-23-42-355) He says, confess them to each other.

[\[00:23:44\]](#transcript-00-23-44-356) Why?

[\[00:23:44\]](#transcript-00-23-44-357) Because the admittance of weakness then draws the prayer of a brother.

[\[00:23:49\]](#transcript-00-23-49-358) So at our church, a men's group will every other week.

[\[00:23:52\]](#transcript-00-23-52-359) The men get together and we have time of prayer and confession where you can share a burden or confess a sin or do a prayer of praise.

[\[00:23:59\]](#transcript-00-23-59-360) And we pray for you right away.

[\[00:24:01\]](#transcript-00-24-01-361) So if you confess a burden, we stop and pray for you right then.

[\[00:24:04\]](#transcript-00-24-04-362) If you confess a sin, we stop and pray for you right there because we want the healing and the promises that come from James, right?

[\[00:24:10\]](#transcript-00-24-10-363) So it says, therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you might be healed.

[\[00:24:15\]](#transcript-00-24-15-364) And then I love this: the prayer of a righteous person has great power as it's working.

[\[00:24:20\]](#transcript-00-24-20-365) This is a hint for next week's episode.

[\[00:24:21\]](#transcript-00-24-21-366) I don't believe he means self-righteousness here.

[\[00:24:24\]](#transcript-00-24-24-367) I think he means Paul, James means the one who has righteousness by faith has powerful prayers.

[\[00:24:31\]](#transcript-00-24-31-368) And it's a comfort to us saying, hey, those who are righteous by faith, your prayers are effective.

[\[00:24:37\]](#transcript-00-24-37-369) Yeah, because the Lord hears and answers them.

[\[00:24:39\]](#transcript-00-24-39-370) That's right.

[\[00:24:40\]](#transcript-00-24-40-371) His ear is always open.

[\[00:24:41\]](#transcript-00-24-41-372) Yep.

[\[00:24:42\]](#transcript-00-24-42-373) So confess your sins to each other and then pray for each other, and you will experience spiritual healing.

[\[00:24:49\]](#transcript-00-24-49-374) I think that's an important practice.

[\[00:24:50\]](#transcript-00-24-50-375) What we're getting at is that that's part of the normal experience of the Christian life is to confess weakness, not only to our Father, but to each other.

[\[00:24:58\]](#transcript-00-24-58-376) Amen.

[\[00:24:58\]](#transcript-00-24-58-377) It creates equality, which is a problem in James.

[\[00:25:01\]](#transcript-00-25-01-378) Yeah.

[\[00:25:02\]](#transcript-00-25-02-379) And then 2 Corinthians 12.

[\[00:25:04\]](#transcript-00-25-04-380) Let's talk about that a little bit.

[\[00:25:05\]](#transcript-00-25-05-381) Well-known passage, Paul's thorn in the flesh.

[\[00:25:07\]](#transcript-00-25-07-382) He says, to keep me from becoming conceited because the Lord had revealed magnificent things to him.

[\[00:25:12\]](#transcript-00-25-12-383) And Paul, it sounds like, is a dude just like you or me.

[\[00:25:15\]](#transcript-00-25-15-384) And it's like he's not impervious to sin.

[\[00:25:18\]](#transcript-00-25-18-385) It's like, ah, to keep me from being conceited.

[\[00:25:20\]](#transcript-00-25-20-386) The Lord gave me thorn in the flesh.

[\[00:25:22\]](#transcript-00-25-22-387) And we're not told exactly what the thorn is.

[\[00:25:24\]](#transcript-00-25-24-388) We do know that Paul pleaded with the Lord three times to take it away, and the Lord said, No, because my grace is sufficient and my strength is made perfect in your weakness.

[\[00:25:33\]](#transcript-00-25-33-389) And so Paul ends that whole paragraph by saying, I will therefore rejoice all the more in my weakness.

[\[00:25:41\]](#transcript-00-25-41-390) Now, what I think he means is not, it's not that the fact that I'm weak brings me joy in and of itself.

[\[00:25:47\]](#transcript-00-25-47-391) It's not that I am a sinner that brings me joy.

[\[00:25:50\]](#transcript-00-25-50-392) I actually lament my sin.

[\[00:25:52\]](#transcript-00-25-52-393) He literally, Romans 7, he cries out, wretched man that I am, who's going to deliver me?

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-394) It's not, and he hates the fact that he doesn't do the good that he wants to do.

[\[00:25:59\]](#transcript-00-25-59-395) He hates the fact that he continues doing the evil that he doesn't want.

[\[00:26:03\]](#transcript-00-26-03-396) So it's not that he is like, oh, yay, I'm a sinner.

[\[00:26:07\]](#transcript-00-26-07-397) You know, like, man, it's wonderful that I sin and just mess it up six ways from Sunday.

[\[00:26:11\]](#transcript-00-26-11-398) That's not what he's saying.

[\[00:26:12\]](#transcript-00-26-12-399) Nope.

[\[00:26:13\]](#transcript-00-26-13-400) But what is he saying?

[\[00:26:14\]](#transcript-00-26-14-401) I rejoice in my weakness for what reason?

[\[00:26:16\]](#transcript-00-26-16-402) Because in my weakness, the Lord is there and he's strong.

[\[00:26:20\]](#transcript-00-26-20-403) And it's in seeing my weakness and confessing it and acknowledging it and owning it, that I most intimately and deeply know the strength and the saving power of Jesus Christ for me.

[\[00:26:36\]](#transcript-00-26-36-404) And I know the grace of God most powerfully and pointedly in my life when I am able to acknowledge and confess and even celebrate the confession of weakness and the fact that I'm a sinner.

[\[00:26:48\]](#transcript-00-26-48-405) And he's writing this in the context, remember, of the ministry of all these quote-unquote super apostles who have this obviously like earthly strength.

[\[00:26:57\]](#transcript-00-26-57-406) And their ministry is shiny and it's impressive.

[\[00:27:00\]](#transcript-00-27-00-407) Whereas Paul, it's like, well, Paul's weak.

[\[00:27:03\]](#transcript-00-27-03-408) He's not impressive.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-409) He's not obviously strong, and he's depicting the fact that no, this is actually Christianity, this is the heart of the faith, right?

[\[00:27:13\]](#transcript-00-27-13-410) And when he goes on to say, you need to examine yourselves, you know, to as to whether or not you're in the faith, I think this is what he means.

[\[00:27:20\]](#transcript-00-27-20-411) Like, are you looking for something that is obviously powerful and glorious in an earthly sense, or especially since you've heard the gospel from me and I'm weak, or is this what you believe?

[\[00:27:30\]](#transcript-00-27-30-412) And is this what you understand?

[\[00:27:32\]](#transcript-00-27-32-413) That you're a sinner and that you're weak like me, and that you are casting yourself completely upon the mercy and the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

[\[00:27:40\]](#transcript-00-27-40-414) Because that's what it is to be a Christian.

[\[00:27:41\]](#transcript-00-27-41-415) Amen.

[\[00:27:42\]](#transcript-00-27-42-416) And I think what this produces, kind of where I want to go with this, and I'd love to hear your thoughts and we'll bring this to a close.

[\[00:27:47\]](#transcript-00-27-47-417) Yep.

[\[00:27:48\]](#transcript-00-27-48-418) Um, what I think this produces when we see this, and this has landed on me in new ways.

[\[00:27:54\]](#transcript-00-27-54-419) This is how it always works in the Christian life.

[\[00:27:55\]](#transcript-00-27-55-420) I mean, these are things we've talked about a thousand times, and you believe them and you feel them.

[\[00:27:59\]](#transcript-00-27-59-421) But then, for whatever reason, in the Lord's providence, you start having these conversations again and you start thinking about things again, and you're affected in a slightly different way.

[\[00:28:07\]](#transcript-00-28-07-422) In the recent weeks, I've been just personally, I've been in a season where I have felt kind of devoid of feeling, which is very strange for me as a guy who lives in my emotions all the time.

[\[00:28:16\]](#transcript-00-28-16-423) And I've been pretty flat and gray, but the Lord has been really good to me in a couple of ways in particular.

[\[00:28:21\]](#transcript-00-28-21-424) One is preaching John chapter 10 that I've been affected by.

[\[00:28:24\]](#transcript-00-28-24-425) But then the other is when my mom was very sick in the hospital recently, I read to her from the novel, The Hammer of God, that I had not read in years, and I was just gripped and affected.

[\[00:28:35\]](#transcript-00-28-35-426) I've mentioned this, I think, in a previous podcast.

[\[00:28:37\]](#transcript-00-28-37-427) But the reason I bring it up right now is that there is a scene in the final part of that Hammer of God novella where a guy who had been living in a kind of revivalistic, pietistic state of

[\[00:28:47\]](#transcript-00-28-47-428) mind

[\[00:28:49\]](#transcript-00-28-49-429) comes to see the reality of indwelling sin for all that it is.

[\[00:28:53\]](#transcript-00-28-53-430) And he sees the sinner-saint reality that we talk about all the time.

[\[00:28:56\]](#transcript-00-28-56-431) He sees it in just like striking color.

[\[00:29:00\]](#transcript-00-29-00-432) And what he sees in that, and what he's trying to communicate to his friend is that, brother, in this is a gospel that we would see our weakness and we would see the depth of our sin because here's

[\[00:29:11\]](#transcript-00-29-11-433) what that leads to.

[\[00:29:13\]](#transcript-00-29-13-434) I now can say with joy that I am a sinner worthy of condemnation who lives now every day by the grace of his God.

[\[00:29:24\]](#transcript-00-29-24-435) And I sit like a bird in my Redeemer's hand, and I eat there.

[\[00:29:28\]](#transcript-00-29-28-436) And in between, I sing songs in the sunshine.

[\[00:29:31\]](#transcript-00-29-31-437) And every day, I find something for my poor soul to draw from the fountain of redemption.

[\[00:29:38\]](#transcript-00-29-38-438) And I'm thinking, God be praised.

[\[00:29:40\]](#transcript-00-29-40-439) Like, this is where I want to live.

[\[00:29:43\]](#transcript-00-29-43-440) And it gives me a different perspective on my life.

[\[00:29:46\]](#transcript-00-29-46-441) It fills me with gratitude and joy and hopefulness that this is who God is for me and the way that He loves me.

[\[00:29:53\]](#transcript-00-29-53-442) And this is how Jesus is with me and for me.

[\[00:29:56\]](#transcript-00-29-56-443) And I'm free.

[\[00:29:58\]](#transcript-00-29-58-444) I really am.

[\[00:30:00\]](#transcript-00-30-00-445) Because what I deserved, I'm not going to get anymore.

[\[00:30:03\]](#transcript-00-30-03-446) And what I could never earn, I've been given, and I'm secure.

[\[00:30:07\]](#transcript-00-30-07-447) And the Lord provides for me everything that I need for life and godliness.

[\[00:30:11\]](#transcript-00-30-11-448) And He's told me that I'll be with Him forever.

[\[00:30:13\]](#transcript-00-30-13-449) And so, really, all is well, it is well with my soul, you know.

[\[00:30:17\]](#transcript-00-30-17-450) And so, I think that that kind of freedom and joy is what this results into.

[\[00:30:22\]](#transcript-00-30-22-451) I agree.

[\[00:30:23\]](#transcript-00-30-23-452) Yeah.

[\[00:30:24\]](#transcript-00-30-24-453) You know, a verse that is often quoted, and I'm thankful that it's quoted because it's mentioned in Christ, but I don't think it's used appropriately.

[\[00:30:32\]](#transcript-00-30-32-454) Philippians 4, right?

[\[00:30:33\]](#transcript-00-30-33-455) But I'm going to read the verse before it that never gets quoted.

[\[00:30:36\]](#transcript-00-30-36-456) Paul says, I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound.

[\[00:30:41\]](#transcript-00-30-41-457) And in any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance, and need.

[\[00:30:48\]](#transcript-00-30-48-458) And I love how he says it's a secret because it's a secret in that, like, people just aren't paying attention.

[\[00:30:55\]](#transcript-00-30-55-459) You know, it's like there's the secret that's rumbling around in Christianity.

[\[00:30:58\]](#transcript-00-30-58-460) It says, and I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

[\[00:31:01\]](#transcript-00-31-01-461) And that's kind of what we're getting at.

[\[00:31:03\]](#transcript-00-31-03-462) The most Christian thing to do is walk by the strength of Jesus.

[\[00:31:06\]](#transcript-00-31-06-463) That's the most Christian thing you can do.

[\[00:31:08\]](#transcript-00-31-08-464) And to always admit, forever and ever to each other and to your king, I am nothing, I have nothing, I can do nothing.

[\[00:31:15\]](#transcript-00-31-15-465) He is everything, all of Christ for all of life.

[\[00:31:17\]](#transcript-00-31-17-466) That's the most Christian thing that you can do, which is why our singing and our prayer, our confessions, and sermons should be about Jesus.

[\[00:31:23\]](#transcript-00-31-23-467) Yeah.

[\[00:31:25\]](#transcript-00-31-25-468) Well, bro, imagine too.

[\[00:31:26\]](#transcript-00-31-26-469) I mean, you pastor a church, I pastor a church.

[\[00:31:28\]](#transcript-00-31-28-470) Both of our churches are imperfect.

[\[00:31:30\]](#transcript-00-31-30-471) Like, lest anybody be.

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-472) You don't have to remind me of that.

[\[00:31:33\]](#transcript-00-31-33-473) No kidding.

[\[00:31:33\]](#transcript-00-31-33-474) I mean, pastors know the Warts and the flaws of churches as well as anyone.

[\[00:31:37\]](#transcript-00-31-37-475) And so that's not a shock to anybody that Grace Reformed Church, Covenant Baptist Church are imperfect churches.

[\[00:31:44\]](#transcript-00-31-44-476) But honestly, if we take these things to heart, the things we're talking about today.

[\[00:31:50\]](#transcript-00-31-50-477) And if this is where we live, confessing this, owning this, acknowledging it, and throwing ourselves into the arms of Christ, remembering, here we go, remembering that we are always debtors to grace and that there is never a moment

[\[00:32:04\]](#transcript-00-32-04-478) in the Christian life where I am not in need of God's grace.

[\[00:32:08\]](#transcript-00-32-08-479) I will never arrive to the place where I am now sufficient on my own and I don't need the grace of God.

[\[00:32:14\]](#transcript-00-32-14-480) If that's where we live consciously all the time, imagine the kind of fruit that would bear in a local church.

[\[00:32:20\]](#transcript-00-32-20-481) Imagine how that would affect relationships in a church.

[\[00:32:23\]](#transcript-00-32-23-482) Imagine how that would marry.

[\[00:32:25\]](#transcript-00-32-25-483) Oh, sure.

[\[00:32:26\]](#transcript-00-32-26-484) But imagine how that would stamp out division.

[\[00:32:28\]](#transcript-00-32-28-485) Imagine how that would promote humility and charity and every good fruit.

[\[00:32:32\]](#transcript-00-32-32-486) You know, I mean, it's like the Lord knew what he was doing in giving us this gospel and in teaching us these things in his word.

[\[00:32:39\]](#transcript-00-32-39-487) And this is part of the Christian life that the Lord continues to teach, he continues to work in us, he continues to show us things.

[\[00:32:46\]](#transcript-00-32-46-488) And we have these light bulb moments where it's like, oh, I think I see more clearly now.

[\[00:32:51\]](#transcript-00-32-51-489) And we're helped.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-490) And thank God for it.

[\[00:32:54\]](#transcript-00-32-54-491) Amen.

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-492) One last verse to throw in here.

[\[00:32:58\]](#transcript-00-32-58-493) This is Ephesians 3:16.

[\[00:33:00\]](#transcript-00-33-00-494) That according to the riches of his glory, he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his spirit in your inner being.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-495) Remember, the strength doesn't come from you as much as we want it to be.

[\[00:33:13\]](#transcript-00-33-13-496) It doesn't.

[\[00:33:14\]](#transcript-00-33-14-497) So that's where we walk by faith, which is going to be next week's conversation.

[\[00:33:19\]](#transcript-00-33-19-498) Justice, what a great habit.

[\[00:33:21\]](#transcript-00-33-21-499) What a great conversation today.

[\[00:33:24\]](#transcript-00-33-24-500) People then say, Well, what about obedience?

[\[00:33:26\]](#transcript-00-33-26-501) What about righteousness?

[\[00:33:27\]](#transcript-00-33-27-502) Doesn't God call us to be godly?

[\[00:33:29\]](#transcript-00-33-29-503) Call us to be righteous.

[\[00:33:31\]](#transcript-00-33-31-504) Yes, that is true.

[\[00:33:32\]](#transcript-00-33-32-505) And then, yet, Peter uses this weird illustration we're going to talk about next week called Lot and Noah.

[\[00:33:39\]](#transcript-00-33-39-506) He calls them righteous men.

[\[00:33:41\]](#transcript-00-33-41-507) How dare he?

[\[00:33:42\]](#transcript-00-33-42-508) Because I'm telling you right now, bro, those guys wouldn't be elders in my church.

[\[00:33:47\]](#transcript-00-33-47-509) Y'all read Genesis, right?

[\[00:33:48\]](#transcript-00-33-48-510) That's right.

[\[00:33:49\]](#transcript-00-33-49-511) You read Genesis?

[\[00:33:50\]](#transcript-00-33-50-512) Genesis 9 and 19 are rough.

[\[00:33:52\]](#transcript-00-33-52-513) Let's just say.

[\[00:33:53\]](#transcript-00-33-53-514) All right.

[\[00:33:53\]](#transcript-00-33-53-515) Hey, guys, thanks for listening.

[\[00:33:56\]](#transcript-00-33-56-516) We're so thankful.

[\[00:33:56\]](#transcript-00-33-56-517) There's a growing community.

[\[00:33:58\]](#transcript-00-33-58-518) If you want to be around other people who are enjoying conversations about this topic and many others related to reformed theology, theocast community is where you want to be.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-519) Over 2,000 people in there, it's safe from social media battles that just are worthless.

[\[00:34:13\]](#transcript-00-34-13-520) So, we'd love to see you guys in there.

[\[00:34:15\]](#transcript-00-34-15-521) Justin and I dip our head in there once in a while and say, Hey, love you guys, and we'll see you next week.

[\[00:34:19\]](#transcript-00-34-19-522) Hey, guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this, and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:34:24\]](#transcript-00-34-24-523) So, where do you go?

[\[00:34:26\]](#transcript-00-34-26-524) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:34:30\]](#transcript-00-34-30-525) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers?

[\[00:34:37\]](#transcript-00-34-37-526) All of our resources are there: past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:34:44\]](#transcript-00-34-44-527) You can go check it out.

[\[00:34:45\]](#transcript-00-34-45-528) The link is in the description below.

---

### Would Satan Approve of Your Morality?

*Published: March 12, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/would-satan-approve-of-your-morality*
*Tags: Holiness, Legalism, moralization, Satan*

https://youtu.be/LthGX6Byqzc

Is there a kind of preaching that Satan would approve of? We often assume it’s the kind that denies miracles and weakens morality, but he may just as well applaud preaching that exalts virtue and moral living while leaving out Jesus. At Theocast, we believe this kind of Christless preaching is dangerous, as it shifts the focus from the gospel to mere behavior. Today, Jon and Justin will discuss this issue and how it affects life in the local church. How do we talk about obedience, faithfulness, and discipleship without obscuring Jesus or assuming the gospel? Our goal is to keep Christ at the center of every conversation, and we hope this discussion is helpful to you.

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---

### How Satan Uses the Law

*Published: March 5, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-satan-uses-the-law*
*Tags: Holiness, Law and Gospel, Legalism, Satan*

https://youtu.be/ezAsTdifjnM

It is safe to say that the Apostle Paul was one of the most vigorous defenders of the gospel, and he said many things to protect it from legalism. However, there is an aspect of Paul's discussions that often goes unnoticed—his argument that legalism is not only a human issue but also a tool used by the kingdom of darkness. Paul explains that when Jesus put the rulers of this age to open shame, it was because they were using the law to condemn us. Jon and Justin discuss how the law can be manipulated by demonic forces to draw us back into legalism, which is entirely opposed to the gospel.

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---

### Despisers of Grace

*Published: February 26, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/despisers-of-grace*
*Tags: grace, Legalism*

https://youtu.be/pQ895NEBAMs

When people look at the liberal-conservative divide—or perhaps the loose versus strict legalistic divide—in the church, they assume there is nothing in common between these groups. However, Jon and Justin disagree. We believe that both of these groups can be described as despisers of grace. Today, we’re going to explain what we mean by that. We’ll have a conversation about the law, the gospel, the grace of God, and the path to true freedom and rest in Jesus.

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---

### More Than Forgiven

*Published: February 19, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/more-than-forgiven-1*
*Tags: Sanctification*

Many believers struggle with doubts about whether they truly belong to Christ, often because their lives don’t look the way they want. Is Jesus only enough for the forgiveness of sins, or is there more to what He has accomplished in us? The answer is yes—He is better than you’ve ever imagined. He not only forgives and justifies but also works in us by His Spirit to sanctify us. Through our union with Him, we are safe, secure, justified, and being sanctified, and we will be with God forever. Today, Jon and Justin discuss union with Christ, based on Romans 6 and Justin’s new book, _More Than Forgiven_.

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https://youtu.be/jH\_Vgr2\_S2Q

---

### What About Tongues, Healing, and Prophecy?

*Published: February 12, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-about-tongues-healing-and-prophecy*
*Tags: Spiritual Gifts*

Have you ever had someone say, “The Lord told me to tell you…”? How do you process that statement? What about modern prophecies, miracles, visions, and dreams? As Reformed, conservative Christians, how do we interpret these things through Scripture? That is the focus of today’s podcast. We want to have a meaningful conversation about assurance and the hope we have in Christ.

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https://youtu.be/wnoceGtT3bw

---

### Whose Voice Are You Listening To?

*Published: February 5, 2025 | Author: Theocast Inc*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/whose-voice-are-you-listening-to*

As human beings, we constantly hear many voices, whether we realize it or not. A key question to ask ourselves is: Whose voice am I listening to? Is it the voice of Satan, who accuses and deceives? The voice of my flesh or the world? Or the voice of my Savior, who speaks truth and life? The voice we listen to shapes our daily experience and how we see the world. Jon and Justin hope this conversation helps us recalibrate our ears to hear the voice of Jesus.

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https://youtu.be/wB1Kxd9YCHw

---

### Why Is Life So Hard?

*Published: January 29, 2025 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-is-life-so-hard*
*Tags: Trials*

Disappointment is part of the human experience, rooted in our expectations that life should be free of struggles. We often forget that trials are inevitable and that everyone will eventually die. Today's podcast explores this utopian view of life and how hardships can shake our faith, causing us to question God’s purpose. Jon and Justin discuss why this happens and where true hope is found. The world is groaning under suffering, but the ultimate solution is always Jesus.

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https://youtu.be/2D\_CS4qSRLY

---

### What Does It Mean to Confirm Our Election?

*Published: January 23, 2025 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-does-it-mean-to-confirm-our-election*
*Tags: Assurance, Obedience, Pietism*

At Theocast, we get this question a lot: What about 2 Peter when it says that we should be confirming our calling and election by our obedience? Isn't that really a way for us to examine ourselves and find our assurance, saying, "Look, my obedience aligns with my confession?" Yes and no. That passage has probably hurt more people than it has helped. But Peter wrote it to help them—he actually wrote it to encourage them. So if you read 2 Peter 1:10 and feel discouraged, you should keep listening. That is not what was intended.

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https://youtu.be/aTcFDbviAM4

---

### Does Jesus Weep With Us?

*Published: January 22, 2025 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/does-jesus-weep-with-us*
*Tags: Jesus*

What comes to mind when you think about God? Do you feel comfort, safety, and love, or do you wrestle with doubt, dread, and judgment? It's been said that our thoughts about God shape every area of our lives, and today Jon and Justin dive deep into this idea. Join them as they explore who God is, what He is like, and how He has revealed Himself through Jesus Christ. Tune in for a thoughtful and honest conversation about faith, feelings, and the character of God.

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https://youtu.be/z-uH11WxxWA

---

### Have You Overcorrected in Your Deconstruction?

*Published: January 1, 2025 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/have-you-overcorrected-in-your-deconstruction*
*Tags: Deconstruction*

What comes to mind when you think about God? Do you feel comfort, safety, and love, or do you wrestle with doubt, dread, and judgment? It's been said that our thoughts about God shape every area of our lives, and today Jon and Justin dive deep into this idea. Join them as they explore who God is, what He is like, and how He has revealed Himself through Jesus Christ. Tune in for a thoughtful and honest conversation about faith, feelings, and the character of God.

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https://youtu.be/z-uH11WxxWA

---

### As A Christian, Do My Emotions Matter?

*Published: December 18, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/as-a-christian-do-my-emotions-matter*
*Tags: Confessionalism, Feelings*

What comes to mind when you think about God? Do you feel comfort, safety, and love, or do you wrestle with doubt, dread, and judgment? It's been said that our thoughts about God shape every area of our lives, and today Jon and Justin dive deep into this idea. Join them as they explore who God is, what He is like, and how He has revealed Himself through Jesus Christ. Tune in for a thoughtful and honest conversation about faith, feelings, and the character of God.

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https://youtu.be/z-uH11WxxWA

---

### Thinking About God: Dread or Comfort?

*Published: December 18, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/thinking-about-god-dread-or-comfort*
*Tags: Delight not dread, Pietism, Rest*

What comes to mind when you think about God? Do you feel comfort, safety, and love, or do you wrestle with doubt, dread, and judgment? It's been said that our thoughts about God shape every area of our lives, and today Jon and Justin dive deep into this idea. Join them as they explore who God is, what He is like, and how He has revealed Himself through Jesus Christ. Tune in for a thoughtful and honest conversation about faith, feelings, and the character of God.

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https://youtu.be/z-uH11WxxWA

---

### Gutting the Scripture of Its Power

*Published: December 11, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/gutting-the-scripture-of-its-power*
*Tags: Assurance, Gospel, law gospel distinction, Pietism*

Many Christians today feel absolutely drained and powerless. They have tried every solution under the sun to overcome their sin, grow in Christ, and mature in their faith, striving for sanctification. Yet, they feel defeated and often question, “_Am I even God's? Do I truly belong to Him?”_ It seems as though the power of Christianity has disappeared. How did that happen? That’s exactly what Justin and Jon want to discuss today. How did the power of the gospel become gutted from the Bible?

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https://youtu.be/J0RUO4SlIVs

---

### Gospel-Lite and Law-Heavy Living

*Published: December 4, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/gospel-lite-and-law-heavy-living*
*Tags: Christian Living, law gospel distinction*

Does the Christian life ever feel like you're sitting on a bicycle, pedaling as hard as you possibly can, but not going anywhere—only to realize there's no chain on the bike? That's what we call "gospel-lite, law-heavy living." You feel like you're putting in a lot of effort but not making any progress because you've been relying on the wrong power source. That's what Justin and Jon want to talk about today: where the true source of light and power comes from.

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### Living by Faith Isn't Easy

*Published: November 20, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/living-by-faith-isnt-easy*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: Christian Living, Faith*

Over the years, Jon and Justin have sought to defend the gospel message: that we are saved by Jesus Christ through faith in Him alone. This belief has often been met with criticism. People frequently object, saying, "Surely it’s not that simple—it has to involve more than just faith in Jesus." In response, Jon and Justin argue that faith is not as easy as it might seem. Walking by faith, rather than by sight, is challenging for us as human beings. In today’s discussion, they will explore this concept further, referencing scripture and addressing recent debates about justification, obedience, and good works. They’ll also examine our tendency to want to hold onto or point to something we’ve done as a measure of our salvation.

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## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:00\]](#transcript-00-00-00-1) Over the years, Jon and I have sought to defend the gospel that we are saved by Jesus Christ through faith in Him alone.

[\[00:00:10\]](#transcript-00-00-10-2) And a lot of times we get criticized for that.

[\[00:00:12\]](#transcript-00-00-12-3) And people will raise the objection and they'll say, guys, surely it's not that easy.

[\[00:00:16\]](#transcript-00-00-16-4) It has to be about more than just faith in Jesus.

[\[00:00:20\]](#transcript-00-00-20-5) And our response to that, one of our responses anyway, is who said faith is easy?

[\[00:00:25\]](#transcript-00-00-25-6) Walking by faith and not sight as human beings is a difficult thing.

[\[00:00:30\]](#transcript-00-00-30-7) Jon and I are going to talk about that today.

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-8) We're going to refer to the scriptures.

[\[00:00:34\]](#transcript-00-00-34-9) We're also going to talk a little bit about some of the recent debates over justification and obedience and good works and all that stuff, and how we so desperately want to be able to hold on to something or

[\[00:00:43\]](#transcript-00-00-43-10) point to something that we are doing.

[\[00:00:45\]](#transcript-00-00-45-11) And so, we struggle to think about these things well.

[\[00:00:48\]](#transcript-00-00-48-12) We hope that you're encouraged in the Lord Jesus today and that you are convinced anew that He is enough to save even you.

[\[00:00:53\]](#transcript-00-00-53-13) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:54\]](#transcript-00-00-54-14) If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

[\[00:00:57\]](#transcript-00-00-57-15) It's called pietism.

[\[00:00:58\]](#transcript-00-00-58-16) Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy?

[\[00:01:04\]](#transcript-00-01-04-17) That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:01:10\]](#transcript-00-01-10-18) It's dread versus joy, really.

[\[00:01:13\]](#transcript-00-01-13-19) That's pietism.

[\[00:01:14\]](#transcript-00-01-14-20) Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope, not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

[\[00:01:22\]](#transcript-00-01-22-21) And we have a little book for you.

[\[00:01:23\]](#transcript-00-01-23-22) It's free.

[\[00:01:24\]](#transcript-00-01-24-23) We want you to download it, and we're going to explain the difference between Pietism and what we call confessionalism, Reformed theology, really, how it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ.

[\[00:01:35\]](#transcript-00-01-35-24) And when Jesus says, Come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

[\[00:01:39\]](#transcript-00-01-39-25) You can download it at our website.

[\[00:01:41\]](#transcript-00-01-41-26) Just go to theocast.org.

[\[00:01:52\]](#transcript-00-01-52-27) Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to trust in Christ.

[\[00:01:58\]](#transcript-00-01-58-28) We are going to have some conversations about the Christian life, but from a biblical reformed perspective, we'll explain what that means here in a minute.

[\[00:02:09\]](#transcript-00-02-09-29) One of the things that Justin and I continue to do over the last five years is we're trying to pull all the clutter off the gospel that easily gets put on there, even by us as pastors, is to

[\[00:02:18\]](#transcript-00-02-18-30) keep refining the gospel.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-31) Not that it needs to be refined, but we mess with it.

[\[00:02:23\]](#transcript-00-02-23-32) And then talk about well, then what do we do with this gospel in light of the kingdom?

[\[00:02:26\]](#transcript-00-02-26-33) So it's fun conversations.

[\[00:02:28\]](#transcript-00-02-28-34) Your hosts are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-35) What's left of it?

[\[00:02:33\]](#transcript-00-02-33-36) I'm Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:02:34\]](#transcript-00-02-34-37) I'm pastor of Grace, a bad joke.

[\[00:02:36\]](#transcript-00-02-36-38) I'm pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:02:40\]](#transcript-00-02-40-39) Justin, for this podcast, it'd be a few weeks for people, but for you, it's only been, you know, a week or two weeks since the disaster.

[\[00:02:48\]](#transcript-00-02-48-40) A little bit back to normal.

[\[00:02:49\]](#transcript-00-02-49-41) We're back on the internet, but it's been a 30-second update.

[\[00:02:55\]](#transcript-00-02-55-42) It's been four weeks, yeah.

[\[00:02:56\]](#transcript-00-02-56-43) Four weeks tomorrow is when it really hit.

[\[00:03:01\]](#transcript-00-03-01-44) And so, yeah, this is the first just two days ago.

[\[00:03:04\]](#transcript-00-03-04-45) I mean, we got internet back in our church office, for example.

[\[00:03:06\]](#transcript-00-03-06-46) So, I mean, it's been serious.

[\[00:03:10\]](#transcript-00-03-10-47) A lot of people are in, I'm fortunate.

[\[00:03:12\]](#transcript-00-03-12-48) A lot of our church members are fortunate in terms of the areas that we live in.

[\[00:03:16\]](#transcript-00-03-16-49) We have power.

[\[00:03:18\]](#transcript-00-03-18-50) Sometimes the water isn't drinkable, but there's at least water that you can boil.

[\[00:03:22\]](#transcript-00-03-22-51) And, you know, some folks are in a much more difficult place, and there are areas of the city that have been washed away, that the rebuild is going to take a while.

[\[00:03:29\]](#transcript-00-03-29-52) And as I was telling you, it's kind of hard to wrap your mind around that.

[\[00:03:32\]](#transcript-00-03-32-53) And I think there's a lot of uncertainty for all of us that we're going to be feeling for quite some time.

[\[00:03:38\]](#transcript-00-03-38-54) But between, yeah, hurricane and flood and everything.

[\[00:03:44\]](#transcript-00-03-44-55) And then I'm sick physically.

[\[00:03:48\]](#transcript-00-03-48-56) So much for triumphalism and onward and upward, man.

[\[00:03:51\]](#transcript-00-03-51-57) And the power of positive confession, right?

[\[00:03:53\]](#transcript-00-03-53-58) I mean, I heard a Christian comedian one time, and I'm not, some Christian comedians are funny, some aren't.

[\[00:03:58\]](#transcript-00-03-58-59) That's not the point.

[\[00:03:59\]](#transcript-00-03-59-60) One time he was saying this to a large group of people, and he said, Man, last time I was in this city, I got so sick.

[\[00:04:06\]](#transcript-00-04-06-61) And he said, Of course, y'all don't want me to say I got sick because y'all are in a positive confession.

[\[00:04:10\]](#transcript-00-04-10-62) Y'all want me to say that I was overcome by a multitude of symptoms.

[\[00:04:13\]](#transcript-00-04-13-63) And it's like, it's so true.

[\[00:04:15\]](#transcript-00-04-15-64) I mean, how silly we are.

[\[00:04:16\]](#transcript-00-04-16-65) Like, don't, don't speak it.

[\[00:04:17\]](#transcript-00-04-17-66) Don't speak it into existence.

[\[00:04:19\]](#transcript-00-04-19-67) Don't manifest it, you know.

[\[00:04:20\]](#transcript-00-04-20-68) And anyway, it ain't working for me.

[\[00:04:22\]](#transcript-00-04-22-69) Your boy is hurting over here in Western North Carolina.

[\[00:04:26\]](#transcript-00-04-26-70) But Christ is good, He's on the throne, and we trust and rest in Him, which is what we're going to talk about today.

[\[00:04:32\]](#transcript-00-04-32-71) I'm happy for you to make any announcements you want, Jon, before I run away with tea in this.

[\[00:04:36\]](#transcript-00-04-36-72) Well, it's important people understand that for those of you who have purchased tickets to come to the Law Gospel Conference in April, we're still planning, Lord willing, to do that.

[\[00:04:44\]](#transcript-00-04-44-73) We still think that that's possible in the city and at the church that Justin's at.

[\[00:04:48\]](#transcript-00-04-48-74) So, if you haven't signed up for that, we still have some tickets left.

[\[00:04:51\]](#transcript-00-04-51-75) Myself, Ken Jones, Chad Bird, and Justin, we're all going to be podcasting together, lecturing, doing panels.

[\[00:04:59\]](#transcript-00-04-59-76) We're going to have a hang night Thursday night, singing, fellowshipping.

[\[00:05:03\]](#transcript-00-05-03-77) We're working on getting some books there and book distributors.

[\[00:05:06\]](#transcript-00-05-06-78) So we want it to be a refreshing time of fellowship where you get to meet really good people, have some time for food and drink.

[\[00:05:14\]](#transcript-00-05-14-79) So, yes, we want to lecture.

[\[00:05:16\]](#transcript-00-05-16-80) Yes, we want to gather and sing, but I mean, there's something about gathering in person, you know, and not just listening to Theocast.

[\[00:05:24\]](#transcript-00-05-24-81) And I know there's the community is growing.

[\[00:05:28\]](#transcript-00-05-28-82) We've got almost 2,000 people in the app, and you guys, I've seen you talk, like, oh, I look forward to meeting you.

[\[00:05:33\]](#transcript-00-05-33-83) I look forward to giving you a hug.

[\[00:05:36\]](#transcript-00-05-36-84) And so that's it's just refreshing.

[\[00:05:38\]](#transcript-00-05-38-85) These are the what I would call little tastes of heaven that God gives us to remind us that as bad as this world is, there's something beyond this world to put our faith in, and we don't get to

[\[00:05:50\]](#transcript-00-05-50-86) see it in its fullness, we get to taste it, and that taste allows our faith to stay focused on what is to come.

[\[00:05:58\]](#transcript-00-05-58-87) What does Paul say to not get entangled with civilian pursuits, sure, as he says?

[\[00:06:02\]](#transcript-00-06-02-88) So.

[\[00:06:02\]](#transcript-00-06-02-89) So just that.

[\[00:06:04\]](#transcript-00-06-04-90) We got the.

[\[00:06:04\]](#transcript-00-06-04-91) If you want to sign up for that, you can go to our website.

[\[00:06:07\]](#transcript-00-06-07-92) We've got the community continues to grow.

[\[00:06:10\]](#transcript-00-06-10-93) It's a great way to support Justin and I.

[\[00:06:11\]](#transcript-00-06-11-94) JP, I don't want to wasting any more time, but I want to go ahead and jump into the subject.

[\[00:06:16\]](#transcript-00-06-16-95) This is one we have a lot to say, so we're going to do our best to try and get this into 40 minutes.

[\[00:06:22\]](#transcript-00-06-22-96) But talk to us about today's subject.

[\[00:06:24\]](#transcript-00-06-24-97) It's what I would call a retro Theocast convo, but a really important one.

[\[00:06:32\]](#transcript-00-06-32-98) So, you and I have been doing this together for over five years, and it's kind of normal for human beings because our lives are not clean and linear.

[\[00:06:42\]](#transcript-00-06-42-99) We experience things, nothing happens in a vacuum, right?

[\[00:06:46\]](#transcript-00-06-46-100) Like we, we've talked about that even with respect to church history before.

[\[00:06:51\]](#transcript-00-06-51-101) So, even the things that you and I go through, Jon, that our churches go through, that our friends go through, conversations resurface.

[\[00:06:59\]](#transcript-00-06-59-102) And the beauty of us doing this podcast for as long as we have is that there will be a number of things that maybe we talked more about three or four years ago than we have in the last

[\[00:07:07\]](#transcript-00-07-07-103) year or two.

[\[00:07:08\]](#transcript-00-07-08-104) And that's not because we don't still believe those things, or it's not because we don't think they're important.

[\[00:07:13\]](#transcript-00-07-13-105) It's just because there's a ton of stuff to talk about when it comes to the Christian life and when it comes to Jesus for us and the plan of God from all of eternity and His word and everything

[\[00:07:21\]](#transcript-00-07-21-106) else.

[\[00:07:22\]](#transcript-00-07-22-107) And so this is kind of like a retro episode.

[\[00:07:25\]](#transcript-00-07-25-108) This is something that we used to say a good bit, and we're going to say it again today and have a fresh convo about the fact that the life of faith is not easy.

[\[00:07:36\]](#transcript-00-07-36-109) So, the way I want to tee this up is I'll start with maybe the punchy and then I'll maybe try to bring it down to the experiential level for a lot of us, um,

[\[00:07:48\]](#transcript-00-07-48-110) the listener won't be shocked to know that we get accused of a lot of things.

[\[00:07:51\]](#transcript-00-07-51-111) I mean, if you're on social media, if you're on YouTube, you see the comments, uh, people don't, not everybody likes us, and that's fine.

[\[00:08:00\]](#transcript-00-08-00-112) What else do you expect in a fallen world?

[\[00:08:02\]](#transcript-00-08-02-113) But one of the things that we used to get accused of a lot when people were charging us with things like antinomianism or whatever.

[\[00:08:12\]](#transcript-00-08-12-114) They would say, well, guys, you know, you're talking about the Christian life is fundamentally a life of faith and it's about trusting Christ.

[\[00:08:18\]](#transcript-00-08-18-115) And we are saved by trusting by Jesus, and we're saved by trusting in him and just casting ourselves upon him.

[\[00:08:25\]](#transcript-00-08-25-116) And you guys keep talking about faith and faith alone and all this kind of stuff.

[\[00:08:29\]](#transcript-00-08-29-117) And surely, guys, it's not that easy.

[\[00:08:33\]](#transcript-00-08-33-118) Surely there has to be more to it than trusting in Jesus.

[\[00:08:39\]](#transcript-00-08-39-119) Now, there are all kinds of things that can be said about implications of trusting in Jesus and the outflows of trusting in Jesus and the fruit and the evidence of trusting in Jesus, those are legitimate conversations to have,

[\[00:08:52\]](#transcript-00-08-52-120) and we've had them.

[\[00:08:54\]](#transcript-00-08-54-121) But what I would like to offer is when people make that charge, guys, surely it's not that easy.

[\[00:09:01\]](#transcript-00-09-01-122) It has to be about more than faith in Christ.

[\[00:09:04\]](#transcript-00-09-04-123) My question is: who in the world said faith is easy?

[\[00:09:08\]](#transcript-00-09-08-124) Who in the world said that to simply trust in Christ is an easy thing to do in the midst of life in this world under the sun, given all the things that we experience.

[\[00:09:21\]](#transcript-00-09-21-125) I mean, when you read the scriptures and when you think about your own life and the things that we go through, how often do we see the people of God in the word of God asking, like, Lord, where

[\[00:09:32\]](#transcript-00-09-32-126) are you?

[\[00:09:33\]](#transcript-00-09-33-127) Where are you?

[\[00:09:33\]](#transcript-00-09-33-128) Are you asleep at the wheel?

[\[00:09:34\]](#transcript-00-09-34-129) What are you doing?

[\[00:09:35\]](#transcript-00-09-35-130) Are you going to help?

[\[00:09:36\]](#transcript-00-09-36-131) You really for us?

[\[00:09:37\]](#transcript-00-09-37-132) Do you really love us?

[\[00:09:38\]](#transcript-00-09-38-133) Because our experience says that you don't.

[\[00:09:42\]](#transcript-00-09-42-134) God says all kinds of things in His Word: that He has adopted us, that He's chosen us, that He delights in us, that He rejoices over the fact that He has saved us, that we are His beloved children,

[\[00:09:55\]](#transcript-00-09-55-135) that he is no longer our judge, right?

[\[00:09:58\]](#transcript-00-09-58-136) That he is near, that he is present, that he sees, that he knows.

[\[00:10:01\]](#transcript-00-10-01-137) I mean, all of these things he says to us, that he is near to the brokenhearted, that he accomplishes all of his purposes.

[\[00:10:10\]](#transcript-00-10-10-138) We could go on and on, all of the promises and the strong statements that the Lord makes.

[\[00:10:16\]](#transcript-00-10-16-139) But then we think, we feel, and we experience like

[\[00:10:21\]](#transcript-00-10-21-140) it's the opposite, feels the opposite to me.

[\[00:10:24\]](#transcript-00-10-24-141) Lord, you say that I'm your beloved child, I feel like you're your enemy.

[\[00:10:28\]](#transcript-00-10-28-142) Lord, you say that you're near.

[\[00:10:30\]](#transcript-00-10-30-143) I feel, I don't feel like that.

[\[00:10:31\]](#transcript-00-10-31-144) You feel distant to me.

[\[00:10:33\]](#transcript-00-10-33-145) You say that you work all things together for good.

[\[00:10:36\]](#transcript-00-10-36-146) Well, I don't see any earthly good right now.

[\[00:10:38\]](#transcript-00-10-38-147) Yeah.

[\[00:10:40\]](#transcript-00-10-40-148) You know, you say that you're no longer my judge, you're my father, but all I feel is like fear and dread when I think about being near you.

[\[00:10:50\]](#transcript-00-10-50-149) Because I know I'm a sinner.

[\[00:10:52\]](#transcript-00-10-52-150) This is what we experience.

[\[00:10:54\]](#transcript-00-10-54-151) And you tell me that you've covered my shame and my guilt, but all I can feel and all that's on the front of my mind right now is my shame and my guilt.

[\[00:11:04\]](#transcript-00-11-04-152) You know, welcome to the life of faith.

[\[00:11:07\]](#transcript-00-11-07-153) Yeah.

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-154) And who said this is easy?

[\[00:11:10\]](#transcript-00-11-10-155) You know?

[\[00:11:11\]](#transcript-00-11-11-156) So that I hope that this isn't really a punchy podcast.

[\[00:11:15\]](#transcript-00-11-15-157) It's meant to be more pastoral, but I mean, I do hope to open the eyes of those who would make that statement that faith is somehow an easy thing.

[\[00:11:22\]](#transcript-00-11-22-158) First of all, it's supernatural.

[\[00:11:23\]](#transcript-00-11-23-159) We don't believe in it of ourselves.

[\[00:11:24\]](#transcript-00-11-24-160) It's not self-generated faith.

[\[00:11:26\]](#transcript-00-11-26-161) The Lord has to give it to us by His supernatural power, one.

[\[00:11:30\]](#transcript-00-11-30-162) And then, two, it is not easy for us because we are wired to live by sight, not faith.

[\[00:11:36\]](#transcript-00-11-36-163) And for us to have to walk by faith is not an easy task when we want to just be able to see it, touch it, taste it, feel it.

[\[00:11:44\]](#transcript-00-11-44-164) So, we're going to talk about all that.

[\[00:11:46\]](#transcript-00-11-46-165) And, might quote from some people who have lived before us who have seen these things too.

[\[00:11:51\]](#transcript-00-11-51-166) We might quote from the good book.

[\[00:11:53\]](#transcript-00-11-53-167) We'll see and hopefully encourage some people out there.

[\[00:11:57\]](#transcript-00-11-57-168) Yeah, speaking of quoting from the most powerful book on the planet.

[\[00:12:05\]](#transcript-00-12-05-169) Man, Justin, it is important that at times people can hear us talking, like, man, you guys are so doom and gloom.

[\[00:12:14\]](#transcript-00-12-14-170) And to be honest with you,

[\[00:12:18\]](#transcript-00-12-18-171) I don't particularly like it when a doctor comes and lies to me about my situation because he doesn't think I can handle the truth.

[\[00:12:25\]](#transcript-00-12-25-172) And, like, how dare you, you know, like try and sugarcoat this thing.

[\[00:12:32\]](#transcript-00-12-32-173) And in many ways, I have a really hard time trusting that doctor going forward.

[\[00:12:35\]](#transcript-00-12-35-174) Because why would you withhold this information from me?

[\[00:12:38\]](#transcript-00-12-38-175) know, right.

[\[00:12:40\]](#transcript-00-12-40-176) Because now I'm living blind and I'm having a blind hope, and my reality has been skewed.

[\[00:12:46\]](#transcript-00-12-46-177) And when I do figure it out, which most people do figure out, that the world is not what people tell them it is, it's harder to deal with because you, you had, you know, it's like if you have

[\[00:12:55\]](#transcript-00-12-55-178) low expectations, you can, the fall is very small.

[\[00:12:59\]](#transcript-00-12-59-179) You have high expectations, that fall can hurt.

[\[00:13:01\]](#transcript-00-13-01-180) This is 2 Corinthians chapter 5.

[\[00:13:04\]](#transcript-00-13-04-181) Paul says this in verse 1: For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

[\[00:13:16\]](#transcript-00-13-16-182) For in the tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling.

[\[00:13:20\]](#transcript-00-13-20-183) So he's telling us what we can expect, but here's reality, guys.

[\[00:13:26\]](#transcript-00-13-26-184) If indeed by putting it on, we may not be found naked.

[\[00:13:31\]](#transcript-00-13-31-185) For while we are still in this tent, we groan, man.

[\[00:13:34\]](#transcript-00-13-34-186) This is important.

[\[00:13:37\]](#transcript-00-13-37-187) So, really quick, man, and none of these things, because this is Paul.

[\[00:13:43\]](#transcript-00-13-43-188) None of these things mean that we've not been united to Christ.

[\[00:13:46\]](#transcript-00-13-46-189) None of these things mean that the Lord Jesus is not with us, that He's not at work in our lives.

[\[00:13:54\]](#transcript-00-13-54-190) But yet, this is so often our experience.

[\[00:13:57\]](#transcript-00-13-57-191) We groan.

[\[00:13:58\]](#transcript-00-13-58-192) Or He said earlier in the letter that we encountered all these trials and this kind of suffering that caused us to despair of life itself.

[\[00:14:04\]](#transcript-00-14-04-193) That's right.

[\[00:14:05\]](#transcript-00-14-05-194) That happens to us.

[\[00:14:06\]](#transcript-00-14-06-195) That's right.

[\[00:14:07\]](#transcript-00-14-07-196) I mean, this morning, I hurt my back.

[\[00:14:10\]](#transcript-00-14-10-197) I've been groaning all day, literally out loud.

[\[00:14:13\]](#transcript-00-14-13-198) You don't feel well.

[\[00:14:14\]](#transcript-00-14-14-199) You and I were sharing some of the struggles of ministry, just caring for people's problems.

[\[00:14:20\]](#transcript-00-14-20-200) Or even just the trials of this year.

[\[00:14:21\]](#transcript-00-14-21-201) 2024 has been a tough year.

[\[00:14:23\]](#transcript-00-14-23-202) Well, and look, I don't have a problem saying that I'm kind of groaning about the future of what's going to happen with our country and this election.

[\[00:14:30\]](#transcript-00-14-30-203) There's a lot of scary stuff going on, right?

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-204) Sure.

[\[00:14:33\]](#transcript-00-14-33-205) So we think about, and he says, for a while, we are still in this tent, he doesn't, and he doesn't tell us not to, he just describes what's going on.

[\[00:14:40\]](#transcript-00-14-40-206) We groan being burdened.

[\[00:14:44\]](#transcript-00-14-44-207) So, this means Paul.

[\[00:14:45\]](#transcript-00-14-45-208) And what's interesting is Paul's going to tell us what the solution is, but it's not what you think it is.

[\[00:14:50\]](#transcript-00-14-50-209) Not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

[\[00:14:58\]](#transcript-00-14-58-210) So he's talking about an already not yet.

[\[00:15:01\]](#transcript-00-15-01-211) It's like we're not there yet.

[\[00:15:02\]](#transcript-00-15-02-212) That's right.

[\[00:15:03\]](#transcript-00-15-03-213) Who has prepared us for the very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as guarantee.

[\[00:15:11\]](#transcript-00-15-11-214) Not now, not guarantee now, it's what is to come.

[\[00:15:14\]](#transcript-00-15-14-215) Exactly.

[\[00:15:15\]](#transcript-00-15-15-216) This is why the next verse is so important.

[\[00:15:17\]](#transcript-00-15-17-217) So, we are always of good courage.

[\[00:15:20\]](#transcript-00-15-20-218) So, there's a groaning with encouragement.

[\[00:15:24\]](#transcript-00-15-24-219) For we are always of good courage.

[\[00:15:26\]](#transcript-00-15-26-220) We know that while we are at home in the body, we're away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight.

[\[00:15:36\]](#transcript-00-15-36-221) Which means walking by faith leads to groaning and burden-bearing.

[\[00:15:41\]](#transcript-00-15-41-222) Well, and some of that sounds just like Ephesians 1, where we have received the promised Holy Spirit as the guarantee of our eternal inheritance.

[\[00:15:49\]](#transcript-00-15-49-223) So, but it is this already not yet that you've described, and we will not turn

[\[00:15:56\]](#transcript-00-15-56-224) the not yet into the consummated new heavens and the new earth, no matter how hard we try, no matter how much we apply ourselves.

[\[00:16:02\]](#transcript-00-16-02-225) We will not turn earth into heaven, so to speak.

[\[00:16:05\]](#transcript-00-16-05-226) We are living by faith now, and our future is certain.

[\[00:16:08\]](#transcript-00-16-08-227) Our future is secure, and we live in light of that hope, which is why Paul prays the way that he does later in Ephesians 1.

[\[00:16:14\]](#transcript-00-16-14-228) I pray that you would have the eyes of your heart enlightened so that you might know the hope to which you've been called, right?

[\[00:16:20\]](#transcript-00-16-20-229) So that you might know the riches of God's glorious inheritance and the saints, and you might know the greatness of the power that is at work within you, right?

[\[00:16:27\]](#transcript-00-16-27-230) Like all that is true, and yet we have not experienced it in full.

[\[00:16:32\]](#transcript-00-16-32-231) And so we struggle and we groan.

[\[00:16:34\]](#transcript-00-16-34-232) Yeah.

[\[00:16:35\]](#transcript-00-16-35-233) And I think that sometimes we, and this is another podcast that we'll do sometime, Justin, but I'm just going to allude to it now.

[\[00:16:43\]](#transcript-00-16-43-234) I do this in all my counseling or shepherding with people, discipleship.

[\[00:16:47\]](#transcript-00-16-47-235) Sometimes we get so focused on the problems, like whatever it is that we're struggling with, that it actually ends up tripping us up.

[\[00:16:56\]](#transcript-00-16-56-236) Like, for instance, you ride bikes, I ride motorcycles.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-237) When you're on the road and you need to avoid a problem, what do you have to do?

[\[00:17:06\]](#transcript-00-17-06-238) You have to look away from the problem because your body always goes towards what you're looking at.

[\[00:17:11\]](#transcript-00-17-11-239) So I had to learn this when I was first riding street bikes: there's something in the road I got to avoid.

[\[00:17:15\]](#transcript-00-17-15-240) I got to pick something else out and ride towards that.

[\[00:17:19\]](#transcript-00-17-19-241) And this is true about our faith, in that Paul is acknowledging the problems.

[\[00:17:24\]](#transcript-00-17-24-242) What I think is funny is that we don't pay attention.

[\[00:17:26\]](#transcript-00-17-26-243) He's like, now, now, when he says, walk by faith, this isn't a theory of like, just have faith.

[\[00:17:33\]](#transcript-00-17-33-244) And I hate movies that do this and songs that do this.

[\[00:17:36\]](#transcript-00-17-36-245) Just have faith.

[\[00:17:36\]](#transcript-00-17-36-246) Faith in what?

[\[00:17:37\]](#transcript-00-17-37-247) Like the universal power, faith in yourself.

[\[00:17:40\]](#transcript-00-17-40-248) He's talking about Jesus.

[\[00:17:42\]](#transcript-00-17-42-249) He's talking about.

[\[00:17:43\]](#transcript-00-17-43-250) Yeah.

[\[00:17:44\]](#transcript-00-17-44-251) Faith is never divorced from its object.

[\[00:17:46\]](#transcript-00-17-46-252) That's right.

[\[00:17:46\]](#transcript-00-17-46-253) In the Christian paradigm.

[\[00:17:48\]](#transcript-00-17-48-254) And the object of our faith is only and always Christ.

[\[00:17:51\]](#transcript-00-17-51-255) Right.

[\[00:17:51\]](#transcript-00-17-51-256) And as Peter says, blessed are you who do not see and yet believe.

[\[00:17:57\]](#transcript-00-17-57-257) Exactly.

[\[00:17:57\]](#transcript-00-17-57-258) Yeah.

[\[00:17:58\]](#transcript-00-17-58-259) And well, Jesus says that in John 20, right after Tom, you know, the whole, what a scene.

[\[00:18:02\]](#transcript-00-18-02-260) He's so compassionate to Thomas and all those things.

[\[00:18:05\]](#transcript-00-18-05-261) That's another podcast for another day, too.

[\[00:18:07\]](#transcript-00-18-07-262) Sure.

[\[00:18:07\]](#transcript-00-18-07-263) But then, you know, put your hands, you know, go ahead and put your hands into scars, put your hand in my side.

[\[00:18:11\]](#transcript-00-18-11-264) And Thomas says, My Lord and my God, right?

[\[00:18:13\]](#transcript-00-18-13-265) And Jesus says, Do you believe after seeing effectively?

[\[00:18:16\]](#transcript-00-18-16-266) Well, blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.

[\[00:18:19\]](#transcript-00-18-19-267) And then Peter says that in 1 Peter 1:8, that though you have not seen him, you believe in him, though you don't now see him, you love him, right?

[\[00:18:26\]](#transcript-00-18-26-268) I mean, it's just like that's that's right, this is the nature of our Christian life.

[\[00:18:32\]](#transcript-00-18-32-269) Go ahead.

[\[00:18:33\]](#transcript-00-18-33-270) So, yeah, just to finish my thought.

[\[00:18:35\]](#transcript-00-18-35-271) So, when we think about the trials, or if you just, I mean, look, there's so much with the internet and news and social media, we just have access to more evil.

[\[00:18:50\]](#transcript-00-18-50-272) Man, it's just it's so evil, right?

[\[00:18:52\]](#transcript-00-18-52-273) There's so, and it's it's it's you're scared for your kids, uh, the influence of what's going on, and you can get really depressed, you can get really concerned.

[\[00:19:01\]](#transcript-00-19-01-274) Sure, and uh, what I, what I, what I love about Paul is so he's in chapter five.

[\[00:19:06\]](#transcript-00-19-06-275) Come back next week because we're, I'm going to just kind of tip the hat to this.

[\[00:19:10\]](#transcript-00-19-10-276) But eventually, he gets to chapter 10 and he starts talking about the weapons of our warfare, which is the gospel, right?

[\[00:19:15\]](#transcript-00-19-15-277) Sure.

[\[00:19:16\]](#transcript-00-19-16-278) So, we're putting our faith not in our faithfulness, which is often what we want to talk about, what we're going to talk to today of how do we wrestle and struggle with these things.

[\[00:19:25\]](#transcript-00-19-25-279) But we're putting our faith as we wrestle and we see the weakness, we see our frailty, we believe that it's not that if we do our best, then we can reach the end, that we are putting our faith

[\[00:19:37\]](#transcript-00-19-37-280) in a power that dwells within us, that feeds our souls, that uplifts us.

[\[00:19:41\]](#transcript-00-19-41-281) And I just have to keep saying this.

[\[00:19:43\]](#transcript-00-19-43-282) I mean, verse 8: yes, we are of good courage and we would rather be away from the body and home with the Lord.

[\[00:19:53\]](#transcript-00-19-53-283) This is our hope, but we're not discouraged.

[\[00:19:57\]](#transcript-00-19-57-284) We have a reason to be encouraged in light of the burdens, in light of the struggle, because there's something more significant.

[\[00:20:03\]](#transcript-00-20-03-285) And what's the significance?

[\[00:20:05\]](#transcript-00-20-05-286) That God is using our pain, our suffering, our circumstances, and situations to be salt and light, to be means to encourage and draw people to himself.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-287) So our suffering isn't without purpose, it isn't just like God wants to test us to see if we can make it.

[\[00:20:20\]](#transcript-00-20-20-288) By the way, that is how a lot of people preach.

[\[00:20:22\]](#transcript-00-20-22-289) It drives me nuts.

[\[00:20:24\]](#transcript-00-20-24-290) The reason for the trials is because we're in a war, you know?

[\[00:20:27\]](#transcript-00-20-27-291) It's like we're trying to help people who are blind see, and blind people, what do they do, man?

[\[00:20:31\]](#transcript-00-20-31-292) They flail about sinning and slapping you, and it's hard at times.

[\[00:20:35\]](#transcript-00-20-35-293) Well, trials, it's not a Lord is testing us to see who's going to make it.

[\[00:20:42\]](#transcript-00-20-42-294) It's that He is using trials to test our faith, yes, but what that is doing is producing steadfastness in God's people.

[\[00:20:48\]](#transcript-00-20-48-295) Because we keep seeing that the faith comes from Him, not us.

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-296) Correct.

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-297) Exactly.

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-298) Like, he is refining us, he is not sifting us like wheat so that we might be lost.

[\[00:20:58\]](#transcript-00-20-58-299) Like, that's not it at all.

[\[00:21:00\]](#transcript-00-21-00-300) Um, can I give you an illustration real quick?

[\[00:21:02\]](#transcript-00-21-02-301) Sure.

[\[00:21:03\]](#transcript-00-21-03-302) When I was in summer camp, uh, out in the desert in California, they had this massive rock cliff and we would rappel down the rock.

[\[00:21:09\]](#transcript-00-21-09-303) And I remember the very first time I had to do it, my counselor is looking me right in the eye.

[\[00:21:13\]](#transcript-00-21-13-304) He goes, Listen, this is a great spiritual act for you, but you need to listen to me very carefully.

[\[00:21:19\]](#transcript-00-21-19-305) I have you.

[\[00:21:21\]](#transcript-00-21-21-306) You will not fall.

[\[00:21:23\]](#transcript-00-21-23-307) Yeah.

[\[00:21:23\]](#transcript-00-21-23-308) Okay.

[\[00:21:24\]](#transcript-00-21-24-309) I know exactly what I'm doing.

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-310) This harness and my capacities.

[\[00:21:28\]](#transcript-00-21-28-311) You can do this.

[\[00:21:29\]](#transcript-00-21-29-312) Well, all those words meant nothing until I had to lean back perpendicular with the rock and walk down.

[\[00:21:38\]](#transcript-00-21-38-313) And many, and that's what he, that's what trials are doing.

[\[00:21:40\]](#transcript-00-21-40-314) He's like, dear child, I have you, and I'm not going to let you go.

[\[00:21:45\]](#transcript-00-21-45-315) And when the trial comes, that's where he's talking about steadfastness, where we go, oh, we're okay in this trial.

[\[00:21:50\]](#transcript-00-21-50-316) Look, I'm actually making it because he will hold me fast.

[\[00:21:54\]](#transcript-00-21-54-317) I'm not holding him fast, he's holding me fast.

[\[00:21:57\]](#transcript-00-21-57-318) This is part of the walk by faith and not by sight that Paul is talking about.

[\[00:22:02\]](#transcript-00-22-02-319) Yeah, Psalm 37: like when we fall, we will not be cast headlong because the Lord upholds our hand, right?

[\[00:22:09\]](#transcript-00-22-09-320) So I've got, I want to keep us in the scripture for a second and make an observation.

[\[00:22:14\]](#transcript-00-22-14-321) You know, it is the power of God.

[\[00:22:15\]](#transcript-00-22-15-322) Just say, I want to keep us in the scripture for a second, and then I'm going to quote Martin Luther.

[\[00:22:19\]](#transcript-00-22-19-323) And then eventually, I do want to move on to talk about the recent

[\[00:22:25\]](#transcript-00-22-25-324) conversation on social media around Richard Baxter and justification and how that actually plays into this conversation.

[\[00:22:32\]](#transcript-00-22-32-325) All right.

[\[00:22:33\]](#transcript-00-22-33-326) So, you went to 2 Corinthians.

[\[00:22:35\]](#transcript-00-22-35-327) I want to look at Romans 6 for a second and just draw a few things to our attention.

[\[00:22:40\]](#transcript-00-22-40-328) Yeah.

[\[00:22:41\]](#transcript-00-22-41-329) Um, So I'm looking, excuse me.

[\[00:22:46\]](#transcript-00-22-46-330) So I'm going to start in verse five.

[\[00:22:49\]](#transcript-00-22-49-331) This is right after they can just see how well planned out we are when we do these.

[\[00:22:52\]](#transcript-00-22-52-332) That's right, baby.

[\[00:22:54\]](#transcript-00-22-54-333) This is pro podcasting at its finest.

[\[00:22:56\]](#transcript-00-22-56-334) It's pro at its level, pro dog.

[\[00:22:58\]](#transcript-00-22-58-335) Top level.

[\[00:22:59\]](#transcript-00-22-59-336) Pro.

[\[00:23:00\]](#transcript-00-23-00-337) So, this is right after the, you know, we've been baptized into Jesus, we've been united to him thing.

[\[00:23:05\]](#transcript-00-23-05-338) And Paul says, For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

[\[00:23:11\]](#transcript-00-23-11-339) And that's strong words.

[\[00:23:12\]](#transcript-00-23-12-340) And then he listened to the words that he uses, the verbs in particular.

[\[00:23:15\]](#transcript-00-23-15-341) And then I want to unpack this for a second.

[\[00:23:17\]](#transcript-00-23-17-342) I'll quote Luther.

[\[00:23:18\]](#transcript-00-23-18-343) He says, We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

[\[00:23:27\]](#transcript-00-23-27-344) For one who has died has been justified from sin.

[\[00:23:31\]](#transcript-00-23-31-345) Now, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

[\[00:23:37\]](#transcript-00-23-37-346) We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again.

[\[00:23:40\]](#transcript-00-23-40-347) Death no longer has dominion over him.

[\[00:23:42\]](#transcript-00-23-42-348) For the death he died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God.

[\[00:23:47\]](#transcript-00-23-47-349) So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:23:53\]](#transcript-00-23-53-350) So the verbs that he keeps using here are: we know that the old man was put to death on the cross.

[\[00:23:58\]](#transcript-00-23-58-351) He'll say that if we have died with Christ, we believe that we'll also live with him.

[\[00:24:04\]](#transcript-00-24-04-352) And he means now and forever.

[\[00:24:06\]](#transcript-00-24-06-353) We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again because death doesn't have power over him anymore.

[\[00:24:12\]](#transcript-00-24-12-354) And then you want to talk about a confession.

[\[00:24:14\]](#transcript-00-24-14-355) He says, so we also must reckon ourselves, confess, right?

[\[00:24:18\]](#transcript-00-24-18-356) That we're dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:24:21\]](#transcript-00-24-21-357) So, Martin Luther, commenting in particular on verse 8, where it's like, now, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

[\[00:24:30\]](#transcript-00-24-30-358) It's he draws this out, and I could not agree more.

[\[00:24:34\]](#transcript-00-24-34-359) I know you'll also be with Luther on this too, Jon.

[\[00:24:39\]](#transcript-00-24-39-360) That like Paul is speaking for himself and all of the apostles, when he says that we believe, he's speaking for saints everywhere.

[\[00:24:47\]](#transcript-00-24-47-361) And so it's important that we see that everything that Paul's writing about is a matter of faith, not experience.

[\[00:24:53\]](#transcript-00-24-53-362) Right?

[\[00:24:54\]](#transcript-00-24-54-363) The hope of bodily resurrection unto eternal life is a matter of faith, not present experience.

[\[00:25:00\]](#transcript-00-25-00-364) Our spiritual life in Christ is also a matter of faith, not present experience.

[\[00:25:06\]](#transcript-00-25-06-365) And so, Martin Luther wrote this: He said, Our spiritual life is a matter not of experience, but of faith.

[\[00:25:13\]](#transcript-00-25-13-366) No one knows or experiences the fact that he lives spiritually or is justified, but he believes and hopes this.

[\[00:25:23\]](#transcript-00-25-23-367) And that's it's so good because it's like, all right, yeah, I don't experience bodily resurrection now.

[\[00:25:29\]](#transcript-00-25-29-368) I don't always like feel and experience the fact that I'm justified.

[\[00:25:34\]](#transcript-00-25-34-369) I don't always feel and experience my union with the Lord Jesus moment over moment, but I believe and I trust that this is so.

[\[00:25:43\]](#transcript-00-25-43-370) I believe and I hope that this is so.

[\[00:25:46\]](#transcript-00-25-46-371) Or verse 11: I don't always feel and experience like I'm dead to sin and alive to God.

[\[00:25:52\]](#transcript-00-25-52-372) Because there are times when the corrupt flesh that I still drag around with me, there's all kinds of stuff that wells up from there.

[\[00:25:59\]](#transcript-00-25-59-373) Paul writes about this in Romans 7: that there's all these times that I'm doing what I don't want to do, and I'm not doing the things that I know are good, and that comes from the corrupt flesh.

[\[00:26:09\]](#transcript-00-26-09-374) And so there's a lot of times that I don't experience the fact that I'm dead to sin and alive to God in Christ, but I believe and I hope and I trust that it's so.

[\[00:26:19\]](#transcript-00-26-19-375) The life of faith, it's what we're describing.

[\[00:26:22\]](#transcript-00-26-22-376) And it's not easy.

[\[00:26:23\]](#transcript-00-26-23-377) No.

[\[00:26:24\]](#transcript-00-26-24-378) Because

[\[00:26:25\]](#transcript-00-26-25-379) our experience, our conscience, our flesh, the evil one, the world preaches a very different word than the gospel and preaches a very different word than the scriptures do.

[\[00:26:37\]](#transcript-00-26-37-380) Yeah.

[\[00:26:38\]](#transcript-00-26-38-381) So I want to talk about Richard Baxter, but I want you to be able to comment on any of that you want to.

[\[00:26:42\]](#transcript-00-26-42-382) No, let's hop for the sake of time.

[\[00:26:44\]](#transcript-00-26-44-383) Let's hop over there because we have a lot to say.

[\[00:26:46\]](#transcript-00-26-46-384) A lot to say here.

[\[00:26:47\]](#transcript-00-26-47-385) All right.

[\[00:26:48\]](#transcript-00-26-48-386) So this will be a little dated because Jon and I, as you guys know, record fairly well in advance.

[\[00:26:53\]](#transcript-00-26-53-387) And so the dust up, the kerfuffle that I'm referring to will have occurred.

[\[00:26:58\]](#transcript-00-26-58-388) A great word.

[\[00:26:58\]](#transcript-00-26-58-389) I know.

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-390) I don't know kerfuffle.

[\[00:27:00\]](#transcript-00-27-00-391) Kerfuffle.

[\[00:27:01\]](#transcript-00-27-01-392) It's like another good word is caddywampus, but it doesn't catty contexts.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-393) Yeah, anyway, you won't.

[\[00:27:07\]](#transcript-00-27-07-394) Anyway, there that is.

[\[00:27:08\]](#transcript-00-27-08-395) So, this is will have been weeks in the past by the point that you guys are listening to this, but some of you might remember it.

[\[00:27:16\]](#transcript-00-27-16-396) I think it was all occasioned by Justin Taylor of Crossway putting a poll on Twitter.

[\[00:27:22\]](#transcript-00-27-22-397) And it was something pertaining to the relationship, the nature of the relationship between obedience, good works, faith, justification, salvation, all this stuff.

[\[00:27:32\]](#transcript-00-27-32-398) And it brought to the fore a lot of disagreement and controversy over how different people in the broader, quote-unquote, reformed camp look at things.

[\[00:27:42\]](#transcript-00-27-42-399) And so, what ended up occurring was Richard Baxter, in particular, became a kind of lightning rod exhibit A example, right, of the way that some in the broader reformed Puritan world have written about some of these things.

[\[00:28:01\]](#transcript-00-28-01-400) And for those who are unfamiliar with Richard Baxter, in short, he was not sound when it comes to justification, sanctification, and things relating to that.

[\[00:28:11\]](#transcript-00-28-11-401) He sounded much more Roman Catholic than he did Protestant in terms of how he would talk about obedience and repentance and good works and how they were instrumental in one sense in our justification, and how, in order to

[\[00:28:23\]](#transcript-00-28-23-402) remain justified, those things needed to be present.

[\[00:28:26\]](#transcript-00-28-26-403) Again, that sounds like Trent, not the Reformation.

[\[00:28:30\]](#transcript-00-28-30-404) And so there's that on Baxter.

[\[00:28:33\]](#transcript-00-28-33-405) But I was having a conversation with one of our pastors here in the office yesterday, and we were talking about this whole thing-the controversy that you know over Baxter and justification and obedience, and all this.

[\[00:28:48\]](#transcript-00-28-48-406) I think there is a sense in which, Jon, we so desperately want to be able to turn faith into sight, even when it comes to this question.

[\[00:28:57\]](#transcript-00-28-57-407) We so desperately want to be able to point to something that we are doing, something that we are contributing, that's tangible, that we can quantify, that we can measure, that we can hold on to, and say, because of

[\[00:29:10\]](#transcript-00-29-10-408) this thing that I'm holding up in my hand, I am legitimate.

[\[00:29:14\]](#transcript-00-29-14-409) Because of this thing that I am holding in my hand, I know that I am God's.

[\[00:29:21\]](#transcript-00-29-21-410) Rather than us hammering this truth and pounding the desk and saying the only thing that matters when it comes to you being God's is the fact that Jesus is for you and that you have been united to him

[\[00:29:36\]](#transcript-00-29-36-411) by faith, that you, as a weary pilgrim, you know, have seen the only one who can save you, the only one who can protect you, the only one who loves you, and you have cast yourself into his arms.

[\[00:29:46\]](#transcript-00-29-46-412) Like, that is it.

[\[00:29:48\]](#transcript-00-29-48-413) And then there's a lot that flows out of that that we can talk about, but you can't hold on to it tangibly.

[\[00:29:55\]](#transcript-00-29-55-414) How do you know you're going to make it?

[\[00:29:56\]](#transcript-00-29-56-415) The answer is Jesus, period.

[\[00:29:59\]](#transcript-00-29-59-416) How do you know you're God's Christ?

[\[00:30:02\]](#transcript-00-30-02-417) Period.

[\[00:30:04\]](#transcript-00-30-04-418) And that makes us very uncomfortable because we want to be able to point to something and grab hold of something that we are contributing.

[\[00:30:11\]](#transcript-00-30-11-419) And I think we were, so McKinsey, you know, our associate pastor, he and I are having this conversation yesterday.

[\[00:30:17\]](#transcript-00-30-17-420) It's like underneath some of this is this issue that we struggle so much to just live a life of simple trust and reliance upon Christ.

[\[00:30:28\]](#transcript-00-30-28-421) And it makes us very nervous.

[\[00:30:30\]](#transcript-00-30-30-422) Hey guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:30:36\]](#transcript-00-30-36-423) So, where do you go?

[\[00:30:37\]](#transcript-00-30-37-424) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:30:41\]](#transcript-00-30-41-425) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there,

[\[00:30:53\]](#transcript-00-30-53-426) and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:30:55\]](#transcript-00-30-55-427) You can go check it out, the link is in the description below.

[\[00:30:58\]](#transcript-00-30-58-428) Multiple times in the New Testament, Paul is dealing with churches who want to go back and hold on to something that gives them control.

[\[00:31:12\]](#transcript-00-31-12-429) We love to be in control, right?

[\[00:31:14\]](#transcript-00-31-14-430) We want to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I believe in Jesus, but at the same time, it'd be nice to have like a backup plan here.

[\[00:31:20\]](#transcript-00-31-20-431) And then no one ordered it that way.

[\[00:31:21\]](#transcript-00-31-21-432) No.

[\[00:31:22\]](#transcript-00-31-22-433) But that's what they want, right?

[\[00:31:23\]](#transcript-00-31-23-434) So Galatians is a powerful book because Paul is helping them to see that, first of all, he's acknowledging that walking by faith is hard.

[\[00:31:35\]](#transcript-00-31-35-435) And if anybody ever tells you that it's easy, they've never done it.

[\[00:31:40\]](#transcript-00-31-40-436) Period.

[\[00:31:41\]](#transcript-00-31-41-437) Because the flesh is powerful, the flesh is strong, and you know, it often overtakes us.

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-438) And we, we, and we see the strength of our flesh, therefore, we want to use the strength of our flesh.

[\[00:31:53\]](#transcript-00-31-53-439) We're going to get into this next week about how much wisdom we think there is in using our flesh to control our flesh, but I'm not going to get into this week.

[\[00:32:03\]](#transcript-00-32-03-440) Paul comes in, and sometimes he uses language where it's kind of like I call it the snap of a father when children are not paying attention, the father goes, Hey, kids, like, you never want to snap at your

[\[00:32:14\]](#transcript-00-32-14-441) kids, but you're like, I need you to look at me right now.

[\[00:32:17\]](#transcript-00-32-17-442) Right.

[\[00:32:17\]](#transcript-00-32-17-443) Or you use your voice to get their attention.

[\[00:32:20\]](#transcript-00-32-20-444) hey, right.

[\[00:32:21\]](#transcript-00-32-21-445) You know, you do that one thing.

[\[00:32:22\]](#transcript-00-32-22-446) My dad used to do that.

[\[00:32:22\]](#transcript-00-32-22-447) Hey, boys.

[\[00:32:23\]](#transcript-00-32-23-448) Yeah.

[\[00:32:24\]](#transcript-00-32-24-449) So he goes, Oh, foolish Galatians, right?

[\[00:32:27\]](#transcript-00-32-27-450) Galatians 3:1.

[\[00:32:28\]](#transcript-00-32-28-451) Who has bewitched you?

[\[00:32:30\]](#transcript-00-32-30-452) It was before your very eyes that Jesus was publicly portrayed as crucified.

[\[00:32:33\]](#transcript-00-32-33-453) Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, something you can do, or by hearing with faith.

[\[00:32:42\]](#transcript-00-32-42-454) Are you so foolish having begun by the Spirit?

[\[00:32:44\]](#transcript-00-32-44-455) So He brought you to life by faith.

[\[00:32:49\]](#transcript-00-32-49-456) Are you now being perfected by the flesh?

[\[00:32:51\]](#transcript-00-32-51-457) I mean, it's a simple question.

[\[00:32:54\]](#transcript-00-32-54-458) I don't think Paul is confusing here.

[\[00:32:56\]](#transcript-00-32-56-459) I don't think it's there's hidden language.

[\[00:32:58\]](#transcript-00-32-58-460) I think it's a really good translation.

[\[00:32:59\]](#transcript-00-32-59-461) There aren't, there aren't texts, and there's other passages to confirm this, right?

[\[00:33:05\]](#transcript-00-33-05-462) So, what he is saying is: you trusted the power of the Spirit to bring you life, and now you've abandoned that.

[\[00:33:13\]](#transcript-00-33-13-463) You don't walk in, you're not walking in faith in the power of the gospel by means of the Spirit.

[\[00:33:18\]](#transcript-00-33-18-464) You're now turning to the flesh, thinking, I can better my life, I can make my life better, I can control my sin, and I can do all that God demands of me by means of some kind of now

[\[00:33:32\]](#transcript-00-33-32-465) he's pointing to the law here by some means of law.

[\[00:33:36\]](#transcript-00-33-36-466) This would be walking by right.

[\[00:33:37\]](#transcript-00-33-37-467) That's right.

[\[00:33:38\]](#transcript-00-33-38-468) This would be walking by faithful obedience, faithfulness.

[\[00:33:43\]](#transcript-00-33-43-469) That's what, that's what it would be.

[\[00:33:44\]](#transcript-00-33-44-470) Versus.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-471) And I would even call it in a Romans paradigm walking according to the flesh, not the spirit.

[\[00:33:49\]](#transcript-00-33-49-472) That's right.

[\[00:33:50\]](#transcript-00-33-50-473) Like, I don't care if you're seeking to obey God's law, if you're doing it in your own effort, it is walking according to the flesh.

[\[00:33:55\]](#transcript-00-33-55-474) That's right.

[\[00:33:56\]](#transcript-00-33-56-475) Yeah.

[\[00:33:56\]](#transcript-00-33-56-476) Because he was talking about this entire section, he's talking about being in God in his acceptance, in full union with him.

[\[00:34:06\]](#transcript-00-34-06-477) Union with Christ cannot be achieved by flesh-based righteousness.

[\[00:34:12\]](#transcript-00-34-12-478) It can't be achieved.

[\[00:34:14\]](#transcript-00-34-14-479) Go back to our episodes on the act of obedience of Christ.

[\[00:34:17\]](#transcript-00-34-17-480) Like, this is so vital.

[\[00:34:20\]](#transcript-00-34-20-481) So it is hard, Justin, to every day wake up and realize that I have to trust that the gospel is sufficient.

[\[00:34:29\]](#transcript-00-34-29-482) I mean, I just, I love 1st and 2 Peter because in both letters, he confirms the gospel to them.

[\[00:34:35\]](#transcript-00-34-35-483) He says, by God's divine power, it's been granted to you.

[\[00:34:39\]](#transcript-00-34-39-484) To have a grant means that it's been given to you without your effort.

[\[00:34:45\]](#transcript-00-34-45-485) A grant, right?

[\[00:34:46\]](#transcript-00-34-46-486) It's another definition of grace.

[\[00:34:48\]](#transcript-00-34-48-487) It's been granted to you by his divine power.

[\[00:34:51\]](#transcript-00-34-51-488) Been gifted, been gifted.

[\[00:34:52\]](#transcript-00-34-52-489) That's right.

[\[00:34:53\]](#transcript-00-34-53-490) All that is for life and godliness, everything that you're going to ever need is been granted to you by grace alone.

[\[00:35:00\]](#transcript-00-35-00-491) And that what that's what you're putting your faith in.

[\[00:35:02\]](#transcript-00-35-02-492) You're putting your faith in the sufficiency of all of who Christ is for all of life and eternity.

[\[00:35:07\]](#transcript-00-35-07-493) And so Paul is rebuking them, saying, you've embraced the first part.

[\[00:35:12\]](#transcript-00-35-12-494) You know, we've done an episode on like a half gospel, people who believe in half the gospel.

[\[00:35:17\]](#transcript-00-35-17-495) And so Justin and I have to wake up every day and we use the means, we use fellowship, we use prayer that our faith would remain strong and that we wouldn't be enticed by the flesh to think, oh,

[\[00:35:28\]](#transcript-00-35-28-496) my discipline will get me to the end.

[\[00:35:31\]](#transcript-00-35-31-497) Or my whatever.

[\[00:35:32\]](#transcript-00-35-32-498) Yeah, fill it blank.

[\[00:35:34\]](#transcript-00-35-34-499) Exactly right.

[\[00:35:35\]](#transcript-00-35-35-500) Now, listen, you and I live disciplined lives.

[\[00:35:37\]](#transcript-00-35-37-501) Sure.

[\[00:35:37\]](#transcript-00-35-37-502) You and I live faithful lives, but we do so by faith, right?

[\[00:35:42\]](#transcript-00-35-42-503) Our faith is what creates the discipline in us, our faith is what creates the faithfulness in us.

[\[00:35:47\]](#transcript-00-35-47-504) But what happens is we want to look to the results and say, well, see, that's why I'm significant.

[\[00:35:53\]](#transcript-00-35-53-505) That's why I'm safe.

[\[00:35:55\]](#transcript-00-35-55-506) We always have to look at the cause, not the results.

[\[00:35:57\]](#transcript-00-35-57-507) This is how I'm enough.

[\[00:35:59\]](#transcript-00-35-59-508) That's right.

[\[00:36:00\]](#transcript-00-36-00-509) And you, every day of your life, dear Saint out there, I mean, we all are faced with this question.

[\[00:36:06\]](#transcript-00-36-06-510) As we wake up today, as we look at the day ahead, is Jesus enough or is he not?

[\[00:36:11\]](#transcript-00-36-11-511) Has he done everything or has he not?

[\[00:36:14\]](#transcript-00-36-14-512) And, like, is he mighty and able to save even me, or is he not?

[\[00:36:20\]](#transcript-00-36-20-513) Will he

[\[00:36:22\]](#transcript-00-36-22-514) fail me or will he keep me?

[\[00:36:26\]](#transcript-00-36-26-515) Right?

[\[00:36:26\]](#transcript-00-36-26-516) I mean, you have to ask those questions every day.

[\[00:36:29\]](#transcript-00-36-29-517) And you're exactly right.

[\[00:36:30\]](#transcript-00-36-30-518) We're always wanting to be able to point.

[\[00:36:33\]](#transcript-00-36-33-519) It's kind of what I was saying earlier: point something, hold on to something that would demonstrate that I'm enough.

[\[00:36:38\]](#transcript-00-36-38-520) And we often don't understand the relationship between Christ and faith in Christ and then faithfulness that flows out of it.

[\[00:36:47\]](#transcript-00-36-47-521) I think one of our struggles, man, well, a couple of things in my mind.

[\[00:36:51\]](#transcript-00-36-51-522) I might pivot here.

[\[00:36:52\]](#transcript-00-36-52-523) I don't want to steal our thunder for next week's episode, but 2 Corinthians 13:5 is so often brought up, you know, the examine yourselves

[\[00:37:02\]](#transcript-00-37-02-524) to take a few minutes to talk about that.

[\[00:37:05\]](#transcript-00-37-05-525) We need to do a whole episode on it to see whether you're in the faith, yeah.

[\[00:37:09\]](#transcript-00-37-09-526) Um, the way that, again, we're not alone in this interpretation, just to be really clear.

[\[00:37:16\]](#transcript-00-37-16-527) The way that that is typically exposited, preached, whatever verb you want to use, exegeted, you know, all those, all those words, right?

[\[00:37:25\]](#transcript-00-37-25-528) The way that's typically handled in our day by serious-minded, like Calvinistic types is this is about fruit, and this is about faithfulness, and this is about obedience.

[\[00:37:37\]](#transcript-00-37-37-529) And so you need to assess yourself in terms of what you're doing

[\[00:37:44\]](#transcript-00-37-44-530) to know whether or not you're legit.

[\[00:37:47\]](#transcript-00-37-47-531) You and I are of like mind that the thrust of 2 Corinthians is Paul defending the legitimacy of his apostolic ministry, given the fact that he is weak over and against these quote-unquote super apostles who, like theology of

[\[00:38:03\]](#transcript-00-38-03-532) glory, type stuff, are very impressive to the eye.

[\[00:38:07\]](#transcript-00-38-07-533) Paul is not.

[\[00:38:09\]](#transcript-00-38-09-534) And so, what Paul is saying effectively here is you need to examine yourselves in terms of what you believe.

[\[00:38:17\]](#transcript-00-38-17-535) You need to examine yourselves like you've heard the gospel from me, and you've heard the nature of the gospel from me, and everything that you're enamored with is opposite of that.

[\[00:38:27\]](#transcript-00-38-27-536) that's right.

[\[00:38:28\]](#transcript-00-38-28-537) It's theology of glory, it's strength and power and shininess in the world.

[\[00:38:34\]](#transcript-00-38-34-538) And it's about you, and it's about the evidence and the fruit and all the stuff that you that we can see rather than it's like, nah, when I'm weak, he's strong.

[\[00:38:47\]](#transcript-00-38-47-539) God's power is made perfect in our weakness.

[\[00:38:49\]](#transcript-00-38-49-540) It's all about God's grace, and ultimately, it's all about Jesus for us.

[\[00:38:54\]](#transcript-00-38-54-541) Examine yourselves, therefore, to see if you're in the faith is a call to examine: what do I believe?

[\[00:39:00\]](#transcript-00-39-00-542) And am I trusting in Christ, or am I trusting in myself?

[\[00:39:03\]](#transcript-00-39-03-543) Am I trusting in Jesus, that He's enough?

[\[00:39:06\]](#transcript-00-39-06-544) Or am I looking to something else as though I have to supply it, or we have to supply it to be enough?

[\[00:39:13\]](#transcript-00-39-13-545) And so, this is so good, Justin.

[\[00:39:15\]](#transcript-00-39-15-546) Yeah, just yeah, I mean, just go back to chapter 10.

[\[00:39:18\]](#transcript-00-39-18-547) This is a little bit of an introduction to next week.

[\[00:39:20\]](#transcript-00-39-20-548) A sermon I just preached this last week.

[\[00:39:23\]](#transcript-00-39-23-549) I did 2 Corinthians 10:1 through 6.

[\[00:39:27\]](#transcript-00-39-27-550) Paul's talking about the position of the attitude and heart of the believer who walks by faith.

[\[00:39:32\]](#transcript-00-39-32-551) Listen to how he starts this: I, Paul, myself, entreat you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ.

[\[00:39:38\]](#transcript-00-39-38-552) The reason he says this is that he's contrasting these wise, strong, boastful people who are pointing to their success.

[\[00:39:48\]](#transcript-00-39-48-553) And the church of Corinth's like, Paul, why aren't you like that?

[\[00:39:50\]](#transcript-00-39-50-554) Like, we think you're weak, and we actually think that you are scared and you're acting timid because we're, we have these strong leaders, and what they're doing is they're pulling them back into Judaism, and their strength and their

[\[00:40:04\]](#transcript-00-40-04-555) boasting is in, look, look how well we're doing.

[\[00:40:07\]](#transcript-00-40-07-556) Exactly.

[\[00:40:08\]](#transcript-00-40-08-557) That's exactly.

[\[00:40:08\]](#transcript-00-40-08-558) So he goes on and says, I beg you that when I am present, I may not have to show boldness with such confidence as I count on showing against you.

[\[00:40:17\]](#transcript-00-40-17-559) Because why?

[\[00:40:17\]](#transcript-00-40-17-560) Because you're walking according to the flesh.

[\[00:40:20\]](#transcript-00-40-20-561) He's like, Your confidence has nothing to do with your faith.

[\[00:40:26\]](#transcript-00-40-26-562) This is, and this is, and then he goes on.

[\[00:40:28\]](#transcript-00-40-28-563) He says, For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war with the flesh.

[\[00:40:32\]](#transcript-00-40-32-564) We're not grabbing on to our flesh to be successful.

[\[00:40:36\]](#transcript-00-40-36-565) And then I'll just jump down here.

[\[00:40:40\]](#transcript-00-40-40-566) When he talks about boasting, he says, if you're going to boast, we're going to boast in the Lord.

[\[00:40:45\]](#transcript-00-40-45-567) Dude, how many times is that written?

[\[00:40:47\]](#transcript-00-40-47-568) Right.

[\[00:40:48\]](#transcript-00-40-48-569) I mean, that's Jeremiah, but then it's 1 Corinthians 1, too.

[\[00:40:51\]](#transcript-00-40-51-570) I mean, that's right.

[\[00:40:51\]](#transcript-00-40-51-571) Ephesians 2.

[\[00:40:52\]](#transcript-00-40-52-572) I mean, it's everywhere.

[\[00:40:54\]](#transcript-00-40-54-573) So when we see our lives being transformed and changed, or what you should say, sustained, at times, God just sustains us.

[\[00:41:02\]](#transcript-00-41-02-574) You know, I feel like, man, I haven't been progressing, I haven't been growing.

[\[00:41:05\]](#transcript-00-41-05-575) It's like, yeah, but he's been sustaining you, he's been keeping you safe.

[\[00:41:09\]](#transcript-00-41-09-576) And then you can go, but how is he doing that?

[\[00:41:11\]](#transcript-00-41-11-577) Well, I'm going to boast in the Lord because I put my faith in the power that's outside of my flesh.

[\[00:41:15\]](#transcript-00-41-15-578) And this is what this is about.

[\[00:41:16\]](#transcript-00-41-16-579) Dear Christian, if you're sitting here and you wake up every morning and you groan and you're like, man, this just seems hard.

[\[00:41:22\]](#transcript-00-41-22-580) That's because it's supposed to be.

[\[00:41:25\]](#transcript-00-41-25-581) That's normal.

[\[00:41:26\]](#transcript-00-41-26-582) What we want to tell you is that suffering and trials and struggles and fighting your flesh and fighting temptations and looking into Christ, receiving the table, all of this stuff so that we can be refreshed and renewed is

[\[00:41:40\]](#transcript-00-41-40-583) the normal experience of the Christian life.

[\[00:41:42\]](#transcript-00-41-42-584) This idea where, you know, we play the Lego music and that should be what we experience.

[\[00:41:48\]](#transcript-00-41-48-585) And what I love about the Lego, the Lego movie is it's like the whole thing comes crashing down because everything isn't awesome.

[\[00:41:54\]](#transcript-00-41-54-586) Right.

[\[00:41:55\]](#transcript-00-41-55-587) Everything is fake.

[\[00:41:57\]](#transcript-00-41-57-588) You know, the whole even the TV show, honey, where's my pants?

[\[00:41:59\]](#transcript-00-41-59-589) The whole thing is fake.

[\[00:42:01\]](#transcript-00-42-01-590) And I love it because the whole thing.

[\[00:42:02\]](#transcript-00-42-02-591) I'm taking your word for it, Jon, because I've not seen any of these things.

[\[00:42:04\]](#transcript-00-42-04-592) Oh, you got to go watch it.

[\[00:42:05\]](#transcript-00-42-05-593) It's great.

[\[00:42:06\]](#transcript-00-42-06-594) Cause it's like everything is this awesome world until they realize it's fake, it's not real.

[\[00:42:11\]](#transcript-00-42-11-595) And this Christianity that you've been handed, this theology of glory.

[\[00:42:14\]](#transcript-00-42-14-596) That's right.

[\[00:42:15\]](#transcript-00-42-15-597) It's exactly like the Truman show.

[\[00:42:17\]](#transcript-00-42-17-598) Yeah.

[\[00:42:17\]](#transcript-00-42-17-599) When you wake up and you go, this isn't reality.

[\[00:42:20\]](#transcript-00-42-20-600) Some people crash and burn so hard they walk away from church.

[\[00:42:23\]](#transcript-00-42-23-601) We don't want that.

[\[00:42:24\]](#transcript-00-42-24-602) We want you to go, listen, there's a hope beyond the Truman show.

[\[00:42:28\]](#transcript-00-42-28-603) There's a be hope, there's a hope beyond the veil.

[\[00:42:30\]](#transcript-00-42-30-604) We should do an episode and just call it the Truman Show, that'd be fun.

[\[00:42:33\]](#transcript-00-42-33-605) Yeah, let's do it.

[\[00:42:34\]](#transcript-00-42-34-606) I'm done.

[\[00:42:35\]](#transcript-00-42-35-607) Uh, dude, what you hit on something that I was thinking as well.

[\[00:42:38\]](#transcript-00-42-38-608) Yeah, one last thought.

[\[00:42:39\]](#transcript-00-42-39-609) Let's do it.

[\[00:42:40\]](#transcript-00-42-40-610) And this is this can be my last thought, too.

[\[00:42:42\]](#transcript-00-42-42-611) The reason that we have to talk about this, about the life of faith and the fact that it's hard.

[\[00:42:48\]](#transcript-00-42-48-612) Two things, if I had to boil it down.

[\[00:42:50\]](#transcript-00-42-50-613) Why is it that you needed to hear this today?

[\[00:42:52\]](#transcript-00-42-52-614) Why is it that Jon and I, for our own souls, needed to talk about this today?

[\[00:42:56\]](#transcript-00-42-56-615) It's because we suffer and we still sin, period.

[\[00:43:00\]](#transcript-00-43-00-616) Because we suffer and because we still sin, we question and we struggle and we doubt and we fear.

[\[00:43:09\]](#transcript-00-43-09-617) And so we have to be reminded yet again, like you said, that this is the normal experience of God's people in this life.

[\[00:43:16\]](#transcript-00-43-16-618) In this pilgrimage, right?

[\[00:43:18\]](#transcript-00-43-18-619) We will experience these things.

[\[00:43:21\]](#transcript-00-43-21-620) And it doesn't mean for one second, that we're not Christ's, or that the Lord isn't with us, right?

[\[00:43:25\]](#transcript-00-43-25-621) But it does mean that we have not arrived yet.

[\[00:43:30\]](#transcript-00-43-30-622) And so we continue to remind ourselves that Christ is enough today and every day.

[\[00:43:36\]](#transcript-00-43-36-623) And that, yeah, there are good things that the Lord will produce in and through me because of the fact that I'm united to Christ, but the ground of my hope and my confidence, the object of my faith, Jesus,

[\[00:43:49\]](#transcript-00-43-49-624) Jesus of Nazareth is the one who has saved me, and he's the one who will keep me.

[\[00:43:53\]](#transcript-00-43-53-625) And so we press on.

[\[00:43:54\]](#transcript-00-43-54-626) I know, I think you're going to close it down.

[\[00:43:56\]](#transcript-00-43-56-627) Yeah.

[\[00:43:56\]](#transcript-00-43-56-628) This is pro podcasting again, pro podcasting 101.

[\[00:44:00\]](#transcript-00-44-00-629) It's taking us five years to get to this level, Joseph.

[\[00:44:02\]](#transcript-00-44-02-630) Good, people could only aspire, Jon, to be like to be at this place.

[\[00:44:06\]](#transcript-00-44-06-631) We do get asked all the time, guys, how did you get to where you are?

[\[00:44:10\]](#transcript-00-44-10-632) Well, we just tell them by a lot of work and a flush, a lot of market of flash.

[\[00:44:16\]](#transcript-00-44-16-633) Part of it is we have kind of switched back and forth on like who does the intros, who does the lead-ins, who does the podcast.

[\[00:44:22\]](#transcript-00-44-22-634) And this is the ball behind the curtain, fourth wall stuff.

[\[00:44:25\]](#transcript-00-44-25-635) Again, faux pas.

[\[00:44:26\]](#transcript-00-44-26-636) Go ahead, Jon.

[\[00:44:27\]](#transcript-00-44-27-637) Shut us down.

[\[00:44:28\]](#transcript-00-44-28-638) Yeah, absolutely.

[\[00:44:29\]](#transcript-00-44-29-639) Well, next week, we're going to get in.

[\[00:44:30\]](#transcript-00-44-30-640) We're going to pick up this conversation and have some other thoughts for you.

[\[00:44:33\]](#transcript-00-44-33-641) But yeah, my encouragement to you, if you're listening to this, this is why Paul says: consider how to build one another up, be in a church that's not perfect, full of broken people who are also walking by faith.

[\[00:44:45\]](#transcript-00-44-45-642) Sing gospel songs, hear the gospel read, hear the law read, have a shepherd that cares for you.

[\[00:44:51\]](#transcript-00-44-51-643) It's God's designed to increase your faith in what he's doing as we are light and salt in our world.

[\[00:44:58\]](#transcript-00-44-58-644) For God's glory and his kingdom, we pray that you are encouraged.

[\[00:45:01\]](#transcript-00-45-01-645) We'll see you next week.

[\[00:45:02\]](#transcript-00-45-02-646) Hey, everyone.

[\[00:45:03\]](#transcript-00-45-03-647) Before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you.

[\[00:45:06\]](#transcript-00-45-06-648) And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it.

[\[00:45:10\]](#transcript-00-45-10-649) But we also need your support.

[\[00:45:12\]](#transcript-00-45-12-650) And it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

[\[00:45:16\]](#transcript-00-45-16-651) So the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.

---

### How Do We Know God Is Pleased With Us?

*Published: November 13, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-do-we-know-god-is-pleased-with-us*
*Tags: Assurance, pleasing God*

Many Christians often struggle with a significant question: How does God truly feel about me? We are aware of the sins we try to hide and the personal struggles we face. God knows all our weaknesses and failures, and deep down, we question whether He is angry or disappointed with us. We may wonder if He will discipline us or pursue us in judgment because we continue to fail. How can God keep loving someone who repeatedly falls short? This is an essential question, and today, Justin and Jon want to address it. Understanding God's attitude toward you is transformative, as it shapes your experience in this world and your journey in the Christian faith. We want to reassure and remind you that God's disposition toward you is not dependent on your performance. Join us as we explore how the gospel frees you from the burden and shame that often weigh heavily on our hearts.

[Join the Theocast Community!](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)  
  
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https://youtu.be/uC46uTVz8So

---

### Why Does God Allow Evil and Suffering?

*Published: November 6, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering*
*Tags: evil, Sin, suffering*

If God is both sovereign and good, why does He allow evil and suffering in the world? These are questions we often ask. For Justin, who lives in Asheville, North Carolina, they’ve just gone through a hurricane, so there are many people asking these questions. Today, Jon and Justin are having a conversation about this, and we acknowledge that we don’t have specific answers to every question. The secret things belong to the Lord. But we’re going to talk about God—His power, His character, His nature, His love for us—and the truths we know about Him that anchor our souls when everything else is giving way. We hope this conversation encourages you and offers you hope.

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https://youtu.be/lQ-NlgT2c-k

---

### An Introduction to the Law and Gospel Distinction

*Published: October 30, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/an-introduction-to-the-law-and-gospel-distinction*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction*

The distinction between law and gospel is one of the most important topics covered at Theocast, as it lies at the heart of resting in Christ. Many struggle with trusting in Christ's sufficiency because they mistakenly mix the law with the gospel, believing there's something they must do to earn God's acceptance. This episode compiles key points from previous episodes to help clarify this important distinction and encourage listeners to rest in Christ's finished work.

Check out the full episodes featured in this compilation:  
  
[Law/Gospel Distinction is Life-Changing | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/law-gospel-distinction-is-life-changing/)  
  
[Intro to Law and Gospel Distinction | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/intro-to-law-and-gospel-distinction/)  
  
[The Law, the Gospel, and Sanctification | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/intro-to-law-and-gospel-distinction/)  
  
[There is No Power in the Law | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/there-is-no-power-in-the-law/)  
  
[Law, Gospel, and Jesus (w/ The Pactum) | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/law-gospel-and-jesus-w-the-pactum/)  
  
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https://youtu.be/\_5lzNLdaNZ0 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:00\]](#transcript-00-00-00-1) We've said this before, I'll say it again: that the believer's sanctification comes from the same source and rests on the same foundation as our justification, and that is union with Christ by faith.

[\[00:00:12\]](#transcript-00-00-12-2) So, this is why we continue to preach Jesus.

[\[00:00:14\]](#transcript-00-00-14-3) You want to see sanctified people in the church preach Christ and then guide people with the law.

[\[00:00:20\]](#transcript-00-00-20-4) Right.

[\[00:00:20\]](#transcript-00-00-20-5) Confirm them in the faith.

[\[00:00:22\]](#transcript-00-00-22-6) Extol as much as possible the grace of Jesus and watch what the Lord will do in growing his people.

[\[00:00:29\]](#transcript-00-00-29-7) Rightly said, that first use of the law preaching, we're trying to kill everyone.

[\[00:00:33\]](#transcript-00-00-33-8) We're trying to crush everyone in terms of our hope in our own merit and our own legal righteousness.

[\[00:00:40\]](#transcript-00-00-40-9) We preach the law this way so that we can then herald Christ.

[\[00:00:45\]](#transcript-00-00-45-10) So, this is law and gospel preaching.

[\[00:00:48\]](#transcript-00-00-48-11) So, it's not just that you mow everybody down with the law, like, hey, this is what God requires, and you haven't done it.

[\[00:00:53\]](#transcript-00-00-53-12) Like, ain't nobody done this, not even for five minutes.

[\[00:00:55\]](#transcript-00-00-55-13) Like, that's that's great, but that's not Christian preaching.

[\[00:01:00\]](#transcript-00-01-00-14) Christian preaching is then, that's true, you haven't done this, but oh, beloved, let me tell you of the one who's done it in your place.

[\[00:01:07\]](#transcript-00-01-07-15) Let me tell you of the one who has taken all of your law breaking upon himself and he died for it and he made satisfaction for it.

[\[00:01:16\]](#transcript-00-01-16-16) And because God is good and just, he doesn't just

[\[00:01:20\]](#transcript-00-01-20-17) sweep sin under the rug, but that's not what he's done because he designed it this way that he would crush his son in the place of sinners.

[\[00:01:30\]](#transcript-00-01-30-18) Right?

[\[00:01:30\]](#transcript-00-01-30-19) So we preach that and then we preach Jesus as the law keeper.

[\[00:01:35\]](#transcript-00-01-35-20) And it's as though we have been as obedient as He was obedient for us.

[\[00:01:39\]](#transcript-00-01-39-21) And we receive all of that by faith in Christ.

[\[00:01:42\]](#transcript-00-01-42-22) So, even with that first use of the law piece, even when the power of the Spirit accompanies it, that really is only laying us open, Jon, in order to make us fertile soil for the seed of the

[\[00:01:52\]](#transcript-00-01-52-23) gospel to be sown.

[\[00:01:53\]](#transcript-00-01-53-24) Right.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-25) Amen.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-26) The law-gospel distinction is probably one of the most important subjects that we cover here at Theocast.

[\[00:02:00\]](#transcript-00-02-00-27) It's at the heart of resting.

[\[00:02:02\]](#transcript-00-02-02-28) Most people struggle with trusting in the sufficiency of Christ because they put the law back in the gospel, meaning we believe that there's something for us to do in order for God to accept us or for us to

[\[00:02:14\]](#transcript-00-02-14-29) be safe and secure.

[\[00:02:15\]](#transcript-00-02-15-30) We don't look unto the author and finisher of our faith.

[\[00:02:18\]](#transcript-00-02-18-31) We look unto us, we, the finisher of our faith.

[\[00:02:22\]](#transcript-00-02-22-32) Well, we put our faith in a source and a power that's outside of ourselves, and this is an important subject for Theocast.

[\[00:02:28\]](#transcript-00-02-28-33) And we have covered several episodes on this, and so we wanted to take some of the best parts of those episodes and put them into one podcast, one video, so that you can share this resource so it can

[\[00:02:38\]](#transcript-00-02-38-34) be an encouragement to you.

[\[00:02:40\]](#transcript-00-02-40-35) This also allows Justin and I to get a break throughout the year.

[\[00:02:43\]](#transcript-00-02-43-36) He just got hit by the storm there in Asheville and so we thought this would be a good opportunity to put out an episode to give us some time to allow him to get ready.

[\[00:02:53\]](#transcript-00-02-53-37) The update of how he is doing is on the community.

[\[00:02:56\]](#transcript-00-02-56-38) He's doing well.

[\[00:02:56\]](#transcript-00-02-56-39) If you'd like to help support him, you can go to Justin's website, which is covebapt.org and learn more about him and to support him.

[\[00:03:04\]](#transcript-00-03-04-40) But this is a resource we wanted to put together.

[\[00:03:07\]](#transcript-00-03-07-41) And if you're new to Theocast, as someone just shared this with you, we're two Reformed Baptist pastors.

[\[00:03:12\]](#transcript-00-03-12-42) Justin Perdue is the pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:03:16\]](#transcript-00-03-16-43) I'm Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:03:17\]](#transcript-00-03-17-44) I'm the pastor of Grace Reform Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:03:20\]](#transcript-00-03-20-45) We love this topic.

[\[00:03:21\]](#transcript-00-03-21-46) It's set us free.

[\[00:03:23\]](#transcript-00-03-23-47) It is the power of God to save.

[\[00:03:25\]](#transcript-00-03-25-48) It is the law of God to convict.

[\[00:03:26\]](#transcript-00-03-26-49) It's important that we keep those separate.

[\[00:03:29\]](#transcript-00-03-29-50) We pray that this will be shared and it'll be a blessing to you.

[\[00:03:33\]](#transcript-00-03-33-51) One of the things that has dramatically helped clarify scripture for me and for Justin and continues to do so is understanding the distinction between the law and the gospel.

[\[00:03:45\]](#transcript-00-03-45-52) It was one of the wonderful things that was, I would say, rediscovered and clarified during the Reformation and has continued to be so.

[\[00:03:52\]](#transcript-00-03-52-53) I'm so thankful.

[\[00:03:53\]](#transcript-00-03-53-54) there's so many ministries out there today who have put a bullhorn to this distinction, and it just we need to turn the volume up even louder.

[\[00:04:01\]](#transcript-00-04-01-55) We need to get more voices in it because the more people talking about it only creates more clarity.

[\[00:04:05\]](#transcript-00-04-05-56) So, today is a, if this is brand new, the point of this episode is that it is an introduction to the basic understanding.

[\[00:04:15\]](#transcript-00-04-15-57) If you would have told me years ago when I was in college, John, do you believe in the distinction between the law and the gospel?

[\[00:04:21\]](#transcript-00-04-21-58) I probably would have understood that to be the Old Testament and the New Testament.

[\[00:04:26\]](#transcript-00-04-26-59) That's how I probably would have interpreted that, or the Mosaic law versus the gospel, but I would have not understood this defining, I would say, hermeneutic that we use to make sure that when we're looking at particular passages,

[\[00:04:42\]](#transcript-00-04-42-60) we aren't adding gospel back into the law, or adding the law back into the gospel, vice versa.

[\[00:04:47\]](#transcript-00-04-47-61) I was just going to echo what you said personally and pastorally.

[\[00:04:50\]](#transcript-00-04-50-62) I would contend that the distinction between the law and the gospel is as significant for our understanding of the scriptures, as about any other doctrinal framework, could be covenant theology is up there as well.

[\[00:05:04\]](#transcript-00-05-04-63) But this framework of law and gospel that comes up out of the scripture that we see clearly revealed in the text, and then we go back to the text with this framework.

[\[00:05:14\]](#transcript-00-05-14-64) It changes the game in terms of how you understand the Bible and how you would understand preaching.

[\[00:05:21\]](#transcript-00-05-21-65) And it has changed the game for me personally as a believer.

[\[00:05:26\]](#transcript-00-05-26-66) And it has certainly changed the game for me as a preacher of God's word.

[\[00:05:29\]](#transcript-00-05-29-67) And so I want to just underscore everything that you said and kind of heartily amen this and reiterate that this is not new.

[\[00:05:38\]](#transcript-00-05-38-68) No.

[\[00:05:38\]](#transcript-00-05-38-69) And that theologians through history have seen this in the Lutheran tradition and in the Reformed tradition, and have said very good things about this and have made it's plain that if one does not rightly understand how to divide

[\[00:05:51\]](#transcript-00-05-51-70) law and gospel, one is not a sound theologian.

[\[00:05:55\]](#transcript-00-05-55-71) That's right.

[\[00:05:56\]](#transcript-00-05-56-72) And so this is important, what we're talking about.

[\[00:05:58\]](#transcript-00-05-58-73) Amen.

[\[00:05:58\]](#transcript-00-05-58-74) And I would echo what you said about covenant theology.

[\[00:06:01\]](#transcript-00-06-01-75) The covenant theology would be the color to the structure of law gospel because, really, we're talking about a covenant of works and a covenant of grace.

[\[00:06:10\]](#transcript-00-06-10-76) And so, if you want to know after this episode, if you'd like to introduction to covenant theology and seeing that distinction, then you can look in our show notes.

[\[00:06:19\]](#transcript-00-06-19-77) We have a five-part series that we put together as an introduction to that with some handout and some book recommendations.

[\[00:06:26\]](#transcript-00-06-26-78) But let's go ahead and jump into it.

[\[00:06:27\]](#transcript-00-06-27-79) We'll start with the definition and then we'll use the Bible to kind of help us guide us in why this would be so important.

[\[00:06:34\]](#transcript-00-06-34-80) First of all, the law.

[\[00:06:36\]](#transcript-00-06-36-81) The easiest way to understand the law is that it's a command, they are commands to do something.

[\[00:06:40\]](#transcript-00-06-40-82) So anytime you hear a command, you can understand that that is a law.

[\[00:06:44\]](#transcript-00-06-44-83) And I know that this can be hard for people to understand because when we think of law, it's hard because the Bible uses the word law in multiple ways, which we're going to get into more in our third

[\[00:06:53\]](#transcript-00-06-53-84) episode.

[\[00:06:53\]](#transcript-00-06-53-85) So stay tuned for that for a full explanation.

[\[00:06:56\]](#transcript-00-06-56-86) But for this scenario, when the Bible speaks of the law, whether the Old Testament, the five books of the law, the Mosaic law, whatever, we do understand that it is representing a command, something not suggested, but something that

[\[00:07:12\]](#transcript-00-07-12-87) is commanded that one must do.

[\[00:07:16\]](#transcript-00-07-16-88) And we've learned from Jesus, which we'll talk about here in a moment, that Jesus says, What does the law say to the lawyer?

[\[00:07:21\]](#transcript-00-07-21-89) Not one of legal, but of the actual one who knows the Mosaic law.

[\[00:07:25\]](#transcript-00-07-25-90) What does he say to the lawyer?

[\[00:07:26\]](#transcript-00-07-26-91) And the lawyer says, Love God, love neighbor.

[\[00:07:29\]](#transcript-00-07-29-92) And he says, Do this and live.

[\[00:07:31\]](#transcript-00-07-31-93) And so, the completion of the law is this: we understand that the law represents righteousness.

[\[00:07:37\]](#transcript-00-07-37-94) For those who obey the law, they are demonstrating they are righteous, they can be considered righteous.

[\[00:07:44\]](#transcript-00-07-44-95) The gospel is the opposite of the law in that there is no commands in the gospel.

[\[00:07:50\]](#transcript-00-07-50-96) There is no due in the gospel.

[\[00:07:52\]](#transcript-00-07-52-97) Sometimes we forget that gospel literally means news.

[\[00:07:56\]](#transcript-00-07-56-98) That's what it means.

[\[00:07:57\]](#transcript-00-07-57-99) It means a declaration of what has been done.

[\[00:08:00\]](#transcript-00-08-00-100) So, the other way we can say this is a promise fulfilled.

[\[00:08:04\]](#transcript-00-08-04-101) That's what, so you have a command to be done, a promise fulfilled, or do versus done.

[\[00:08:10\]](#transcript-00-08-10-102) So, and here's what is the promised that was fulfilled.

[\[00:08:13\]](#transcript-00-08-13-103) The promise was that where Adam failed and now fell into sin, he failed to be righteous and fell into sin.

[\[00:08:22\]](#transcript-00-08-22-104) The promise is Christ succeeded to be righteous and removed our sin by taking it on for us, and there's nothing left to do.

[\[00:08:31\]](#transcript-00-08-31-105) He sits at the right hand of the Father as our great high priest and mediator, and those who, by faith in Christ, trust that the good news is they can be considered righteous and without sin.

[\[00:08:44\]](#transcript-00-08-44-106) So that's the gospel.

[\[00:08:45\]](#transcript-00-08-45-107) And then there's nothing to do this way.

[\[00:08:48\]](#transcript-00-08-48-108) If you ever hear someone say, there's the command of the gospel or the imperative of the gospel, there's something for you to do?

[\[00:08:54\]](#transcript-00-08-54-109) There's a confusion there because the gospel is clearly this: a promised fulfilled.

[\[00:09:00\]](#transcript-00-09-00-110) It is done, it is news.

[\[00:09:02\]](#transcript-00-09-02-111) Sometimes, when people say, Well, John, there's nothing in the Bible where it says the law says do this and live.

[\[00:09:08\]](#transcript-00-09-08-112) There's like there's nowhere it says that.

[\[00:09:09\]](#transcript-00-09-09-113) And I said, Well, actually, Christ is the one who helps us with that.

[\[00:09:13\]](#transcript-00-09-13-114) Now, there's nothing in the Old Testament that would give the indication that the law was given, like the Mosaic law or the ceremonial law, was given as a means to earn salvation.

[\[00:09:22\]](#transcript-00-09-22-115) We would agree.

[\[00:09:23\]](#transcript-00-09-23-116) The law was never given as a means to earn salvation.

[\[00:09:27\]](#transcript-00-09-27-117) The gospel was preached to Adam, and he believed, right?

[\[00:09:30\]](#transcript-00-09-30-118) The promise of the Messiah, the seed of Eve, the gospel was as we're told, Galatians 3:8.

[\[00:09:34\]](#transcript-00-09-34-119) The gospel was preached to Abraham, and Abraham was justified.

[\[00:09:38\]](#transcript-00-09-38-120) He believed.

[\[00:09:38\]](#transcript-00-09-38-121) So the gospel has always been the good news that one can be justified by the promises of God.

[\[00:09:44\]](#transcript-00-09-44-122) And that promise was always the Messiah, right?

[\[00:09:46\]](#transcript-00-09-46-123) No, amen.

[\[00:09:48\]](#transcript-00-09-48-124) So, but it's very clear that, and this is where, again, I'm going to go ahead and put in a little bit of covenant theology here because I think it's going to help on understanding the law.

[\[00:09:57\]](#transcript-00-09-57-125) You see, we are, according to Romans and 1 Corinthians, we are in Adam.

[\[00:10:04\]](#transcript-00-10-04-126) And what that means is, is that when Adam failed to obey God's law, don't eat of the fruit of the tree.

[\[00:10:09\]](#transcript-00-10-09-127) Every human being that came from him at that moment was born under that curse.

[\[00:10:15\]](#transcript-00-10-15-128) We were cursed under that.

[\[00:10:17\]](#transcript-00-10-17-129) So in Adam, all died.

[\[00:10:19\]](#transcript-00-10-19-130) Now, what's interesting is that who is described as the second Adam?

[\[00:10:24\]](#transcript-00-10-24-131) That would be Jesus.

[\[00:10:24\]](#transcript-00-10-24-132) That would be Christ.

[\[00:10:26\]](#transcript-00-10-26-133) And the thing that's important here is Jesus needed to earn righteousness for us because we could not earn righteousness.

[\[00:10:35\]](#transcript-00-10-35-134) We could not do it ourselves.

[\[00:10:36\]](#transcript-00-10-36-135) And the question is: how do we determine whether Jesus is righteous or not?

[\[00:10:40\]](#transcript-00-10-40-136) How do we know this?

[\[00:10:42\]](#transcript-00-10-42-137) And the conclusion we know this is by the law.

[\[00:10:44\]](#transcript-00-10-44-138) Did he keep the law?

[\[00:10:45\]](#transcript-00-10-45-139) Did he keep the law?

[\[00:10:47\]](#transcript-00-10-47-140) The prophets literally said that the king who sat on the throne of David would perfectly keep the law.

[\[00:10:53\]](#transcript-00-10-53-141) Well, we know what that law is, it's the Mosaic law.

[\[00:10:56\]](#transcript-00-10-56-142) And so, when Jesus comes and perfectly keeps the law, Paul says, for us that became righteousness.

[\[00:11:03\]](#transcript-00-11-03-143) It became our life.

[\[00:11:05\]](#transcript-00-11-05-144) No, that's right.

[\[00:11:06\]](#transcript-00-11-06-145) I mean, 1 Kings 9 makes it very clear that as the king goes, so goes the kingdom in terms of Israel.

[\[00:11:11\]](#transcript-00-11-11-146) The king would represent the people.

[\[00:11:13\]](#transcript-00-11-13-147) Like if the king was obedient, the people would be blessed.

[\[00:11:16\]](#transcript-00-11-16-148) If the king broke the law, the people would be cut off, God says.

[\[00:11:20\]](#transcript-00-11-20-149) And then in Jeremiah 23 and 33 and other places, it's very clear that the righteous branch that God will raise up for David is going to not only execute justice and righteousness in the land, but the name by

[\[00:11:31\]](#transcript-00-11-31-150) which he will be called is the Lord is our righteousness.

[\[00:11:34\]](#transcript-00-11-34-151) That's right.

[\[00:11:35\]](#transcript-00-11-35-152) So clearly, yeah, he would come and fulfill all of God's requirements in the law, and then those, or excuse me, his fulfillment would be then imputed, given to all of those who are united to him by faith.

[\[00:11:48\]](#transcript-00-11-48-153) This is why Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:17, do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets, but I have come to fulfill them.

[\[00:11:57\]](#transcript-00-11-57-154) And he'll use the language of fulfilling all righteousness.

[\[00:12:00\]](#transcript-00-12-00-155) And the scriptures use the language of, by my servant's righteousness, says the Lord, will the many be accounted righteous?

[\[00:12:06\]](#transcript-00-12-06-156) That's Isaiah.

[\[00:12:08\]](#transcript-00-12-08-157) And then also Romans 5, where Paul makes it very clear that by the obedience and righteousness of the one man, Christ Jesus, the many are accounted righteous.

[\[00:12:16\]](#transcript-00-12-16-158) That's right.

[\[00:12:17\]](#transcript-00-12-17-159) Yeah.

[\[00:12:17\]](#transcript-00-12-17-160) So obedience to the law, according to the Old and New Testament, according to this understanding of the covenant of works, which we'll get into later if you get into our series.

[\[00:12:27\]](#transcript-00-12-27-161) The law was designed to, one, tell us about the nature of God.

[\[00:12:34\]](#transcript-00-12-34-162) Like, how did we learn about the nature of God and how we violated his nature, the law, but it also was a way to demonstrate righteousness.

[\[00:12:44\]](#transcript-00-12-44-163) So, this is what I love about it when the lawyer comes to him in Luke 10 and says to him, You know, what must I do to be holy and acceptable in the kingdom?

[\[00:12:51\]](#transcript-00-12-51-164) Because that's what it means.

[\[00:12:52\]](#transcript-00-12-52-165) To enter the kingdom, one must be righteous.

[\[00:12:54\]](#transcript-00-12-54-166) And so, what does Jesus say?

[\[00:12:55\]](#transcript-00-12-55-167) Well, what's written in the law, and how do you read it?

[\[00:12:57\]](#transcript-00-12-57-168) And of course, the man says, Love God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself.

[\[00:13:00\]](#transcript-00-13-00-169) And Jesus, quote, Luke 10:28 says to him, You have answered correctly, do this, and you will live.

[\[00:13:08\]](#transcript-00-13-08-170) So Jesus understood the conclusion of obeying the law was eternal life.

[\[00:13:15\]](#transcript-00-13-15-171) Oh, yeah.

[\[00:13:15\]](#transcript-00-13-15-172) And the conclusion of that lawyer should have been: well, no one can do that.

[\[00:13:20\]](#transcript-00-13-20-173) Which is why the man is seeking to justify himself according to the law, which is why Jesus even tells the parable of the Good Samaritan.

[\[00:13:27\]](#transcript-00-13-27-174) So Jesus quotes in Luke 10:28 to that scribe, that lawyer, who asks Jesus, What do I need to do in order to inherit eternal life, in order to inherit the kingdom of God?

[\[00:13:38\]](#transcript-00-13-38-175) Jesus, again, dead giveaway, right?

[\[00:13:41\]](#transcript-00-13-41-176) Well, what is in the law?

[\[00:13:43\]](#transcript-00-13-43-177) How do you read it?

[\[00:13:44\]](#transcript-00-13-44-178) So we're talking about law here.

[\[00:13:45\]](#transcript-00-13-45-179) And the man answers, you know, love God with all your heart, soul, and strength.

[\[00:13:48\]](#transcript-00-13-48-180) Love your neighbor as yourself.

[\[00:13:50\]](#transcript-00-13-50-181) Jesus says, You've answered correctly.

[\[00:13:52\]](#transcript-00-13-52-182) Do this, and you will live.

[\[00:13:53\]](#transcript-00-13-53-183) Jesus is quoting Leviticus 18:5 right there that reads this way: You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules.

[\[00:14:01\]](#transcript-00-14-01-184) If a person does them, he shall live by them.

[\[00:14:05\]](#transcript-00-14-05-185) I am the Lord, is what God said.

[\[00:14:07\]](#transcript-00-14-07-186) So Jesus quotes that.

[\[00:14:09\]](#transcript-00-14-09-187) And then, of course, this lawyer in Luke 10 seeking to justify himself according to what?

[\[00:14:15\]](#transcript-00-14-15-188) The law.

[\[00:14:16\]](#transcript-00-14-16-189) The law says, Well, who's my neighbor?

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-190) Right?

[\[00:14:19\]](#transcript-00-14-19-191) So I want to make sure I'm doing this right.

[\[00:14:21\]](#transcript-00-14-21-192) And then Jesus tells the parable of the Good Samaritan, which the main point of that parable is: ain't none of y'all done this.

[\[00:14:30\]](#transcript-00-14-30-193) Nobody has done this.

[\[00:14:31\]](#transcript-00-14-31-194) That's right.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-195) Right.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-196) And secondarily, we can say, yeah, we should sacrificially love our neighbor, but that's not the main reason Jesus tells it.

[\[00:14:37\]](#transcript-00-14-37-197) That's right.

[\[00:14:37\]](#transcript-00-14-37-198) He's trying to crush that lawyer and everybody else in his hearing who thinks that they can keep the law for righteousness.

[\[00:14:44\]](#transcript-00-14-44-199) You actually, you can't do that.

[\[00:14:46\]](#transcript-00-14-46-200) Which is, just if I can, really quickly, I want to pick up Paul's argument in Galatians chapter 3 because he's going to quote not only Leviticus 18, he's going to quote Deuteronomy 27.

[\[00:14:58\]](#transcript-00-14-58-201) This is an important kind of connection, I think, for people to see.

[\[00:15:02\]](#transcript-00-15-02-202) So in Galatians chapter 3, beginning in verse 10, Paul makes it very clear that all who rely on works of the law are under a curse.

[\[00:15:09\]](#transcript-00-15-09-203) Well, why is that?

[\[00:15:10\]](#transcript-00-15-10-204) He says, for it's written, cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law and do them.

[\[00:15:17\]](#transcript-00-15-17-205) So again, it's an all or nothing standard.

[\[00:15:19\]](#transcript-00-15-19-206) James 2, 10 and 11, right?

[\[00:15:21\]](#transcript-00-15-21-207) Anybody, if you've broken one bit of God's law, if you've broken any piece of God's law, you've broken the whole thing.

[\[00:15:26\]](#transcript-00-15-26-208) Because the one who said, you know, do not commit adultery also said, Don't commit murder, et cetera.

[\[00:15:29\]](#transcript-00-15-29-209) Right.

[\[00:15:30\]](#transcript-00-15-30-210) So it's all or nothing standard.

[\[00:15:32\]](#transcript-00-15-32-211) So Paul says, you know, you're cursed if you've not done everything in the law and you've lived accordingly.

[\[00:15:38\]](#transcript-00-15-38-212) And he says, now it's evident that no one's justified before God by the law.

[\[00:15:42\]](#transcript-00-15-42-213) Right.

[\[00:15:42\]](#transcript-00-15-42-214) He says, For the righteous shall live by faith.

[\[00:15:45\]](#transcript-00-15-45-215) Then he says, But the law is not of faith, rather, the one who does them shall live by them.

[\[00:15:49\]](#transcript-00-15-49-216) He quotes Leviticus 18:5.

[\[00:15:52\]](#transcript-00-15-52-217) The law and the gospel are different things, they're complementary, and we're going to talk about that in a second, but they're not the same.

[\[00:15:59\]](#transcript-00-15-59-218) They are distinct from one another.

[\[00:16:01\]](#transcript-00-16-01-219) They're different in terms of how they operate.

[\[00:16:04\]](#transcript-00-16-04-220) And then he goes on to say how Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.

[\[00:16:09\]](#transcript-00-16-09-221) And he's going to write over in chapter four that Jesus at the right time was born of a woman, born under the law, in order to redeem those who are under the law.

[\[00:16:17\]](#transcript-00-16-17-222) Yeah.

[\[00:16:17\]](#transcript-00-16-17-223) That through him we might receive adoption as sons.

[\[00:16:21\]](#transcript-00-16-21-224) Yeah, the law was always designed to help clarify what is righteousness.

[\[00:16:26\]](#transcript-00-16-26-225) It is not relative obedience, it's not 75% obedience, it is 100%.

[\[00:16:32\]](#transcript-00-16-32-226) And there's only one person.

[\[00:16:33\]](#transcript-00-16-33-227) This is why the disciples, after the rich young ruler walks away, they say, Well, Jesus, if that man cannot earn salvation, who can be saved?

[\[00:16:44\]](#transcript-00-16-44-228) And then Jesus flat out clarifies the law with man, it is impossible.

[\[00:16:50\]](#transcript-00-16-50-229) No human being is able to earn for themselves righteousness by the law because it's not majority, it's complete, it's perfection.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-230) It's personal, perfect, perpetual obedience.

[\[00:17:04\]](#transcript-00-17-04-231) That's right.

[\[00:17:04\]](#transcript-00-17-04-232) The law is what God requires.

[\[00:17:05\]](#transcript-00-17-05-233) The gospel is what God graciously provides.

[\[00:17:09\]](#transcript-00-17-09-234) And unpack it from there.

[\[00:17:10\]](#transcript-00-17-10-235) So, what he requires, what he provides, the laws, that, and the gospel is that.

[\[00:17:16\]](#transcript-00-17-16-236) Pretty simple.

[\[00:17:16\]](#transcript-00-17-16-237) We can unpack it.

[\[00:17:17\]](#transcript-00-17-17-238) We can look at Bible verses, but there's my answer.

[\[00:17:20\]](#transcript-00-17-20-239) I'm sticking to it.

[\[00:17:22\]](#transcript-00-17-22-240) Yeah.

[\[00:17:23\]](#transcript-00-17-23-241) Excellent.

[\[00:17:23\]](#transcript-00-17-23-242) Yeah.

[\[00:17:24\]](#transcript-00-17-24-243) I think what I do in a class when I teach it is helping people understand really news versus obligation, right?

[\[00:17:32\]](#transcript-00-17-32-244) So the law is here's an obligation to be met and there's a result that comes from it.

[\[00:17:39\]](#transcript-00-17-39-245) That's do this.

[\[00:17:40\]](#transcript-00-17-40-246) And the gospel isn't a proclamation of what was already done, like, because news is always past tense, right?

[\[00:17:46\]](#transcript-00-17-46-247) So it's what has happened.

[\[00:17:47\]](#transcript-00-17-47-248) So it's done versus do in the simplest.

[\[00:17:49\]](#transcript-00-17-49-249) When you read a passage of scripture, are you reading about what was done for you by Christ, or are you reading about what you must do?

[\[00:17:56\]](#transcript-00-17-56-250) And that's the simplest way of thinking about the law is requirement, and the gospel is the announcement of what has been done.

[\[00:18:03\]](#transcript-00-18-03-251) Justin, we want to hear yourself.

[\[00:18:05\]](#transcript-00-18-05-252) You guys have covered it all.

[\[00:18:07\]](#transcript-00-18-07-253) I don't know that there's a lot to say.

[\[00:18:09\]](#transcript-00-18-09-254) If I'm going to maybe get a little bit further down the road, I would say that in Old or New Testament, law is anywhere we read of what God requires for righteousness.

[\[00:18:22\]](#transcript-00-18-22-255) And then, anywhere in Old or New Testament where we read of what God gives us in His grace that we receive by faith the works of another, then that's gospel.

[\[00:18:34\]](#transcript-00-18-34-256) And simple paradigms that are helpful to me: do is law, done is gospel.

[\[00:18:42\]](#transcript-00-18-42-257) So that's simple.

[\[00:18:44\]](#transcript-00-18-44-258) Do just that conveys a potential fact.

[\[00:18:47\]](#transcript-00-18-47-259) Go ahead.

[\[00:18:48\]](#transcript-00-18-48-260) I appreciate the fact you said in either testament, right?

[\[00:18:51\]](#transcript-00-18-51-261) Because so much of this conversation ends up being helping people to undo wrong thinking.

[\[00:18:58\]](#transcript-00-18-58-262) Correct.

[\[00:18:58\]](#transcript-00-18-58-263) So we've been all super simple and clear, but there's so much baggage because, you know, oh, what about the dispensation of law and the dispensation of gospel?

[\[00:19:07\]](#transcript-00-19-07-264) No, we're not talking about that.

[\[00:19:09\]](#transcript-00-19-09-265) What about the fact that the Old Testament is law and the New Testament is gospel?

[\[00:19:13\]](#transcript-00-19-13-266) No, we're not talking about that.

[\[00:19:15\]](#transcript-00-19-15-267) There's so many factors like that.

[\[00:19:16\]](#transcript-00-19-16-268) So I love your clarity as far as in either Testament because there's grace in both.

[\[00:19:21\]](#transcript-00-19-21-269) There's gospel in both, right?

[\[00:19:23\]](#transcript-00-19-23-270) And there's law in both.

[\[00:19:24\]](#transcript-00-19-24-271) So that's all.

[\[00:19:25\]](#transcript-00-19-25-272) Yeah, I think that's what I want to give an example of that.

[\[00:19:27\]](#transcript-00-19-27-273) I'll give an example of that is when Paul says the gospel was preached to Abraham and he believed.

[\[00:19:33\]](#transcript-00-19-33-274) Oh, yeah.

[\[00:19:34\]](#transcript-00-19-34-275) I mean, that's a great example of in the Old Testament is clearly the gospel.

[\[00:19:39\]](#transcript-00-19-39-276) Well, Jesus in John 8 says that Abraham rejoiced to see my day.

[\[00:19:44\]](#transcript-00-19-44-277) He saw it and was glad.

[\[00:19:45\]](#transcript-00-19-45-278) He saw it by faith, right?

[\[00:19:46\]](#transcript-00-19-46-279) I mean, amen.

[\[00:19:47\]](#transcript-00-19-47-280) I think continuing to give people some simple paradigms that, again, are helpful to me.

[\[00:19:51\]](#transcript-00-19-51-281) And maybe this because of how my brain works, not only that do, done distinction, but the law says do this and live, Leviticus 18:5.

[\[00:20:00\]](#transcript-00-20-00-282) The one who does these things will live by them.

[\[00:20:02\]](#transcript-00-20-02-283) The gospel says Jesus has done it.

[\[00:20:04\]](#transcript-00-20-04-284) Now live in him.

[\[00:20:06\]](#transcript-00-20-06-285) Right.

[\[00:20:06\]](#transcript-00-20-06-286) Or here's one that has gotten me shot at on social media.

[\[00:20:10\]](#transcript-00-20-10-287) And you brothers can help clean this up so that I'm not misunderstood.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-288) Noel.

[\[00:20:16\]](#transcript-00-20-16-289) No.

[\[00:20:17\]](#transcript-00-20-17-290) Wait till we do an episode on hypnoticism.

[\[00:20:20\]](#transcript-00-20-20-291) Oh my gosh.

[\[00:20:21\]](#transcript-00-20-21-292) Yeah.

[\[00:20:22\]](#transcript-00-20-22-293) It's going to happen.

[\[00:20:22\]](#transcript-00-20-22-294) So the law demands everything and gives nothing.

[\[00:20:28\]](#transcript-00-20-28-295) The gospel demands nothing and gives everything.

[\[00:20:32\]](#transcript-00-20-32-296) And what we mean by that, so the law demands everything and gives nothing.

[\[00:20:36\]](#transcript-00-20-36-297) Well, it's an exacting standard, it's all or nothing.

[\[00:20:38\]](#transcript-00-20-38-298) It's perfect, or you're ruined.

[\[00:20:41\]](#transcript-00-20-41-299) The gospel demands nothing of us, meaning we don't do anything.

[\[00:20:45\]](#transcript-00-20-45-300) It gives us everything that we need for forgiveness and righteousness and eternal life.

[\[00:20:50\]](#transcript-00-20-50-301) And that gets people really worked up when you start to say things like the gospel contains nothing in it whatsoever that we are to do.

[\[00:20:57\]](#transcript-00-20-57-302) It's important that we acknowledge that we're not simply saying gospel, gospel, gospel.

[\[00:21:01\]](#transcript-00-21-01-303) When we talk about the law, gospel distinction, we're emphasizing, yes, we're emphasizing the gospel, and we would happily say we're gospel-centric or something like that, but we're all for emphasizing the law as well.

[\[00:21:14\]](#transcript-00-21-14-304) And even using it lawfully, using it lawfully, which means strongly, it requires perfect, exact obedience.

[\[00:21:22\]](#transcript-00-21-22-305) And so, we want to be committed to both and being clear with both.

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-306) We think that's what the Bible models, it's what the Protestant Reformation was about: recovering.

[\[00:21:30\]](#transcript-00-21-30-307) And when you blur the two, you ruin both.

[\[00:21:34\]](#transcript-00-21-34-308) And so, if it's well, the gospel has all of these demands, and you have to obey all these things, you're just blurring the two, and you've ruined the gospel because it should come to us freely by grace alone,

[\[00:21:45\]](#transcript-00-21-45-309) through faith alone, on account of Christ alone.

[\[00:21:47\]](#transcript-00-21-47-310) But you also ruined the law, and somehow you've made the law gracious.

[\[00:21:51\]](#transcript-00-21-51-311) And it's not gracious, it's exacting.

[\[00:21:55\]](#transcript-00-21-55-312) It's about obeying.

[\[00:21:57\]](#transcript-00-21-57-313) And so that's why we like to joke and say, I think, you know, probably Kim Riddlebarger probably came up with it according to my sources.

[\[00:22:04\]](#transcript-00-22-04-314) But I learned it from my court and, you know, gospel, gospel is a bad move.

[\[00:22:09\]](#transcript-00-22-09-315) It's a bad look, and it sounds bad because it is bad.

[\[00:22:13\]](#transcript-00-22-13-316) So, law and gospel don't blur the two, but emphasize the two, is how I would want to say it.

[\[00:22:18\]](#transcript-00-22-18-317) Yeah.

[\[00:22:18\]](#transcript-00-22-18-318) I can remember thinking that I was really upholding the law in my understanding of preaching and teaching, but I really wasn't in that I made the law achievable in my preaching and teaching.

[\[00:22:32\]](#transcript-00-22-32-319) And what it ended up doing is putting an unbearable burden upon me and everyone else that was around who I was because I imperatives.

[\[00:22:42\]](#transcript-00-22-42-320) Yeah.

[\[00:22:43\]](#transcript-00-22-43-321) And I thought, man, we need to, we need, you know, the world wants to shy away, and they want to downplay obedience, and the Bible emphasizes obedience.

[\[00:22:51\]](#transcript-00-22-51-322) And so, we need to emphasize and preach obedience to the law.

[\[00:22:54\]](#transcript-00-22-54-323) And that's really what my preaching and teaching was like.

[\[00:22:56\]](#transcript-00-22-56-324) And yeah, gospel, of course, and grace.

[\[00:22:59\]](#transcript-00-22-59-325) We are saved by grace alone.

[\[00:23:01\]](#transcript-00-23-01-326) But what I didn't understand was, I really saw the gospel as means of removal of sin, and it was a half-gospel, which is why your book, another plug for Pat's book, Active Obedience of Christ, is a part of

[\[00:23:17\]](#transcript-00-23-17-327) the gospel, right?

[\[00:23:18\]](#transcript-00-23-18-328) It's a part of the good news of what Christ accomplished, not only passively receiving our punishment, but also actively earning our righteousness.

[\[00:23:26\]](#transcript-00-23-26-329) So, what ended up helping me was that the law got put back where it belonged, where the fence was no longer climbable.

[\[00:23:35\]](#transcript-00-23-35-330) I couldn't get over the wall because no one can get that high.

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-331) And the law, when I remember that, when I first understood the concept of the law crushing me, that's when I realized, oh, I have to have the gospel.

[\[00:23:50\]](#transcript-00-23-50-332) And there's nothing in the gospel for me to do because the gospel relieves the crushing blow of the law.

[\[00:23:57\]](#transcript-00-23-57-333) That's when Jesus's words, when he says, come to me, all you are heavy laden, I understood what he meant.

[\[00:24:01\]](#transcript-00-24-01-334) Like, ah, I feel the weight of the law now.

[\[00:24:04\]](#transcript-00-24-04-335) And he kept trying to put the weight of the law, like on the rich man.

[\[00:24:07\]](#transcript-00-24-07-336) He would put the weight of the law on people, and they were like, I can carry it.

[\[00:24:10\]](#transcript-00-24-10-337) He's like,

[\[00:24:12\]](#transcript-00-24-12-338) you have half a law.

[\[00:24:13\]](#transcript-00-24-13-339) You don't have the whole law.

[\[00:24:14\]](#transcript-00-24-14-340) It sounds blasphemous and awful, and it is blasphemous and awful.

[\[00:24:19\]](#transcript-00-24-19-341) I think Martin Luther, you know, was just told by his mentor again and again, he had all this guilt.

[\[00:24:24\]](#transcript-00-24-24-342) And just love God, love God, love God, which is the law according to Jesus.

[\[00:24:30\]](#transcript-00-24-30-343) That's to the point where the summary of the first table.

[\[00:24:32\]](#transcript-00-24-32-344) Right.

[\[00:24:33\]](#transcript-00-24-33-345) Yeah.

[\[00:24:33\]](#transcript-00-24-33-346) Luther got to the point where he said, I don't love God.

[\[00:24:36\]](#transcript-00-24-36-347) I hate God.

[\[00:24:37\]](#transcript-00-24-37-348) I hate him.

[\[00:24:38\]](#transcript-00-24-38-349) And yeah, that's terrible.

[\[00:24:41\]](#transcript-00-24-41-350) But the reality is, all of a sudden, now things are starting to click.

[\[00:24:44\]](#transcript-00-24-44-351) Things are starting to make sense because he really was grasping the fact that he didn't love God appropriately as he must.

[\[00:24:52\]](#transcript-00-24-52-352) And that's what led him to desperation to then eventually, see Christ.

[\[00:24:56\]](#transcript-00-24-56-353) So

[\[00:24:57\]](#transcript-00-24-57-354) I like the story.

[\[00:24:58\]](#transcript-00-24-58-355) I just wanted to add it to your journey, John.

[\[00:25:00\]](#transcript-00-25-00-356) Sex telling us about your journey.

[\[00:25:02\]](#transcript-00-25-02-357) Well, that's what made me fall in love with a lot of Reformation theology and writers was because they would beat you brutally with the law.

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-358) I mean, just pound you.

[\[00:25:12\]](#transcript-00-25-12-359) And then they're like, Are you done?

[\[00:25:13\]](#transcript-00-25-13-360) Are you exhausted?

[\[00:25:14\]](#transcript-00-25-14-361) Great, because now you're ready for the gospel.

[\[00:25:17\]](#transcript-00-25-17-362) And the gospel becomes sweet, and you learn to live by the gospel and not live by the law.

[\[00:25:23\]](#transcript-00-25-23-363) And when I make statements like that, people think, um, you know, you're antinomian.

[\[00:25:28\]](#transcript-00-25-28-364) It's like, well, no, there's a difference of I walk by faith in Christ and therefore obey versus I walk by faith in the law because I think obeying the law produces righteousness.

[\[00:25:37\]](#transcript-00-25-37-365) My faith must be in Christ.

[\[00:25:39\]](#transcript-00-25-39-366) And that's why the distinction matters.

[\[00:25:41\]](#transcript-00-25-41-367) Because if you think about it in this way, I remember the first time I started understanding the covenant of works.

[\[00:25:49\]](#transcript-00-25-49-368) And I remember, I wish I knew who the author was.

[\[00:25:51\]](#transcript-00-25-51-369) I totally give him credit right now.

[\[00:25:53\]](#transcript-00-25-53-370) But he was reading Genesis 3:15, you know, first mention of the gospel.

[\[00:25:58\]](#transcript-00-25-58-371) And he says, What demands are in this description of God's promise of restoration.

[\[00:26:03\]](#transcript-00-26-03-372) And I was like, oh, wow, there's nothing that he never tells them anything.

[\[00:26:08\]](#transcript-00-26-08-373) He says, this is what I'm doing.

[\[00:26:10\]](#transcript-00-26-10-374) And then, from my understanding, they just went forward believing that, right?

[\[00:26:14\]](#transcript-00-26-14-375) It was a declaration of what would be done.

[\[00:26:16\]](#transcript-00-26-16-376) And that's so important to understand.

[\[00:26:18\]](#transcript-00-26-18-377) They did break the law.

[\[00:26:19\]](#transcript-00-26-19-378) Don't eat of the fruit.

[\[00:26:20\]](#transcript-00-26-20-379) They did do that.

[\[00:26:22\]](#transcript-00-26-22-380) And then what was going to restore it was the works of Christ, not the work of Adam and Eve.

[\[00:26:27\]](#transcript-00-26-27-381) Why is it that this law and gospel distinction matters for our souls on a day over day, week over week basis?

[\[00:26:34\]](#transcript-00-26-34-382) You know, there's a great quote in the book, the Cahoon book.

[\[00:26:38\]](#transcript-00-26-38-383) It's brief to the point, but it answers that question.

[\[00:26:40\]](#transcript-00-26-40-384) I think, Justin, he says, troubled consciences cannot ordinarily be quieted unless the doctrine of the gospel is rightly distinguished from that of the law.

[\[00:26:51\]](#transcript-00-26-51-385) And, you know, troubled consciences are a problem, right?

[\[00:26:57\]](#transcript-00-26-57-386) They are that.

[\[00:26:58\]](#transcript-00-26-58-387) For each of us.

[\[00:27:00\]](#transcript-00-27-00-388) And so, how can we quiet that troubled conscience?

[\[00:27:03\]](#transcript-00-27-03-389) Well, we need to know what the law requires, and then we're going to even be more troubled.

[\[00:27:07\]](#transcript-00-27-07-390) And then we need to have the balm, if you will, to use the old language of the gospel to soothe us and to give us comfort and joy and assurance.

[\[00:27:16\]](#transcript-00-27-16-391) And it's, I know it's why, it's why each of us preaches every week, and we each want to preach the law to let people know they should be more troubled than they are, but also to preach the gospel

[\[00:27:26\]](#transcript-00-27-26-392) so that they can be more encouraged than they ever otherwise, it would be.

[\[00:27:30\]](#transcript-00-27-30-393) We got this email.

[\[00:27:31\]](#transcript-00-27-31-394) This is a very common email that we get.

[\[00:27:33\]](#transcript-00-27-33-395) This line caught me when I read it.

[\[00:27:34\]](#transcript-00-27-34-396) They were just talking about their experience before understanding all the gospel distinction and resting in Christ.

[\[00:27:40\]](#transcript-00-27-40-397) They said: there is a constant fear and dread, and a struggle with a rebellious heart and unbelief.

[\[00:27:47\]](#transcript-00-27-47-398) That's where you are.

[\[00:27:48\]](#transcript-00-27-48-399) You're in a constant fear and dread because I can't live up to the obligations of the law, and I'm being told to.

[\[00:27:56\]](#transcript-00-27-56-400) That's where I think this conversation is so important.

[\[00:27:59\]](#transcript-00-27-59-401) And you're talking about the practical nature of it, Justin.

[\[00:28:02\]](#transcript-00-28-02-402) Is that if there's a if they're reading a book, listening to a podcast, or listening to preaching, and the preacher calls you to obey the law, he needs to call you to obey it in its exacting form so

[\[00:28:14\]](#transcript-00-28-14-403) that you don't think it's achievable.

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-404) Fear and dread come in when you think you can do it.

[\[00:28:19\]](#transcript-00-28-19-405) Someone, no, not too long ago, you know, greeted me after the service, and it was after it was gospel.

[\[00:28:27\]](#transcript-00-28-27-406) I mean, I don't know what the text was, but it was super assuring, and it was pretty much all gospel once I talked about the law.

[\[00:28:36\]](#transcript-00-28-36-407) And the person came up to me, and they're like, Oh, Pastor, that was so convicting.

[\[00:28:42\]](#transcript-00-28-42-408) And I thought, You must have been checking your texts or your emails or something.

[\[00:28:48\]](#transcript-00-28-48-409) Right.

[\[00:28:48\]](#transcript-00-28-48-410) But I knew enough to know that the person loved Paul Washer and Paul Washer kinds of sermons, and they were kind of trained to have that be the best compliment you can give when someone has preached something that

[\[00:29:01\]](#transcript-00-29-01-411) robs you of your assurance that it's somehow good.

[\[00:29:04\]](#transcript-00-29-04-412) And I thought, you didn't hear what I said.

[\[00:29:06\]](#transcript-00-29-06-413) You should be saying, Pastor, thank you encouraging me and comforting me.

[\[00:29:10\]](#transcript-00-29-10-414) Exactly.

[\[00:29:11\]](#transcript-00-29-11-415) Jesus is a wonderful savior.

[\[00:29:14\]](#transcript-00-29-14-416) If Christians are going to have any joy and peace in believing, like that's a biblical category, right?

[\[00:29:21\]](#transcript-00-29-21-417) So that you might have joy and peace in believing.

[\[00:29:24\]](#transcript-00-29-24-418) Well, you can't mix the law and the gospel then, then.

[\[00:29:26\]](#transcript-00-29-26-419) because as soon as you start to weave works into the fabric of our standing before the Lord now or in the future, you've given it all away.

[\[00:29:35\]](#transcript-00-29-35-420) Because any sane person is going to assess his or her life and say, yeah, I mean, even if there's some fruit, even if there's some evidence, even if there's some love, like I could love a lot more.

[\[00:29:48\]](#transcript-00-29-48-421) And hey, yeah, maybe I don't engage in things that I used to engage in, but I could sin a lot less.

[\[00:29:55\]](#transcript-00-29-55-422) And you know that there is no way that what you're abstaining from or what you're doing could ever earn you something before the Lord because you know him, he's holy and he's righteous and he's altogether good.

[\[00:30:09\]](#transcript-00-30-09-423) And so, how could this end well for me?

[\[00:30:12\]](#transcript-00-30-12-424) Right is the question.

[\[00:30:13\]](#transcript-00-30-13-425) And so, that conscience, that troubled conscience piece, you're robbed of all joy, you're robbed of all peace, and then doubt and fear and dread are introduced back into the equation.

[\[00:30:22\]](#transcript-00-30-22-426) And we functionally undo the adoption that the Lord has given us.

[\[00:30:28\]](#transcript-00-30-28-427) I mean, like, this is a Romans 8:15 thing.

[\[00:30:29\]](#transcript-00-30-29-428) We've not been given a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but we've been given a spirit of adoption by whom we call God Father.

[\[00:30:36\]](#transcript-00-30-36-429) And I think all of those things are jeopardized when the law and the gospel are collapsed.

[\[00:30:41\]](#transcript-00-30-41-430) Not only do you lose the law and all of its holiness, and you can no longer use it lawfully.

[\[00:30:45\]](#transcript-00-30-45-431) First use to show us our sin and drive us to Christ.

[\[00:30:48\]](#transcript-00-30-48-432) Second use to restrain corruption.

[\[00:30:49\]](#transcript-00-30-49-433) Third use to guide our living in Jesus.

[\[00:30:52\]](#transcript-00-30-52-434) You can't do that well, but you've given the gospel away because you've now are preaching a gospel of sincere obedience, not a gospel of Christ for you, for your forgiveness and your righteousness and your eternal life.

[\[00:31:06\]](#transcript-00-31-06-435) And that makes all of the difference on a Tuesday morning when I'm tying my shoes, man, getting ready to go do whatever it is I'm about to do.

[\[00:31:13\]](#transcript-00-31-13-436) If I know, in spite of the ups, downs, trials, and travails, it doesn't matter if my week is devastatingly bad or if every time I pull the leverage trip sevens, it doesn't matter.

[\[00:31:22\]](#transcript-00-31-22-437) It's like I know that I'm safe and secure.

[\[00:31:25\]](#transcript-00-31-25-438) Romans, the letter to the Romans.

[\[00:31:27\]](#transcript-00-31-27-439) So Romans 2:13, it's not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-440) Paul then mows everybody down in Romans 3, 9, and following, and makes it plain that the law holds everybody accountable, and no flesh will ever be justified by works of the law.

[\[00:31:41\]](#transcript-00-31-41-441) But now the righteousness of God has been revealed apart from the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it.

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-442) It is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for everyone who believes.

[\[00:31:52\]](#transcript-00-31-52-443) So you get that whole piece of how the righteousness that God requires, he gives.

[\[00:31:57\]](#transcript-00-31-57-444) And it is that very righteousness of the law, as Paul makes very plain, tracking through the rest of the book of Romans.

[\[00:32:03\]](#transcript-00-32-03-445) In particular, you get to Romans 8:4, where in Jesus Christ, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in us.

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-446) Why?

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-447) Because he kept the law.

[\[00:32:12\]](#transcript-00-32-12-448) Then Romans 9:30 through like 10:4, you get this.

[\[00:32:16\]](#transcript-00-32-16-449) Israel, this is remarkable that Paul writes these words.

[\[00:32:19\]](#transcript-00-32-19-450) He says that Israel pursued a law that would lead to righteousness.

[\[00:32:23\]](#transcript-00-32-23-451) Wow, right?

[\[00:32:25\]](#transcript-00-32-25-452) But then they didn't succeed in reaching it.

[\[00:32:27\]](#transcript-00-32-27-453) Why?

[\[00:32:28\]](#transcript-00-32-28-454) Because they pursued it as though that could be achieved by works.

[\[00:32:31\]](#transcript-00-32-31-455) Right?

[\[00:32:32\]](#transcript-00-32-32-456) So, what was the great error of Israel?

[\[00:32:34\]](#transcript-00-32-34-457) It was they sought to establish their own righteousness under the law rather than Romans 10, 3, submitting to God's righteousness.

[\[00:32:41\]](#transcript-00-32-41-458) Right.

[\[00:32:41\]](#transcript-00-32-41-459) And then Romans 10, 4, because Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

[\[00:32:47\]](#transcript-00-32-47-460) So that's where I start.

[\[00:32:48\]](#transcript-00-32-48-461) Galatians, Pat, do you want to pile on that?

[\[00:32:50\]](#transcript-00-32-50-462) I don't want to yeah, I don't want to spirit.

[\[00:32:52\]](#transcript-00-32-52-463) Go for it.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-464) I don't want to

[\[00:32:56\]](#transcript-00-32-56-465) Romans 10, like a broken record, right?

[\[00:32:58\]](#transcript-00-32-58-466) Just go there again and again.

[\[00:33:00\]](#transcript-00-33-00-467) Bro, because it's so Galatians, yeah, Galatians 3, John.

[\[00:33:05\]](#transcript-00-33-05-468) You mentioned it.

[\[00:33:06\]](#transcript-00-33-06-469) Deuteronomy 27:26, cursed is everyone who does not abide by everything written in the book of the law and do it.

[\[00:33:11\]](#transcript-00-33-11-470) Right?

[\[00:33:12\]](#transcript-00-33-12-471) So, Paul quotes that, and then he says, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, right?

[\[00:33:18\]](#transcript-00-33-18-472) So, we're cursed because we haven't done the law.

[\[00:33:20\]](#transcript-00-33-20-473) Christ becomes a curse to die for us.

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-474) Then Galatians 4, 4, and 5, at the right time, God sent His Son, born of woman, born what?

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-475) Under the law, so that those who he might redeem those who are under the law, right?

[\[00:33:33\]](#transcript-00-33-33-476) Acts 13, Paul in Antioch is preaching, and he says that through Jesus Christ, you can be set free from everything that you could not be set free from by the law of Moses, right?

[\[00:33:43\]](#transcript-00-33-43-477) So you get this whole thing again where Jesus is doing something that the law couldn't do.

[\[00:33:48\]](#transcript-00-33-48-478) I'm just doing like a quarterback or something.

[\[00:33:53\]](#transcript-00-33-53-479) You could do this all day.

[\[00:33:55\]](#transcript-00-33-55-480) Shout out to Omaha.

[\[00:33:56\]](#transcript-00-33-56-481) 2:13.

[\[00:33:57\]](#transcript-00-33-57-482) Romans chapter 13.

[\[00:33:58\]](#transcript-00-33-58-483) Oh, my God.

[\[00:33:59\]](#transcript-00-33-59-484) Romans 2:13.

[\[00:34:02\]](#transcript-00-34-02-485) I like it.

[\[00:34:03\]](#transcript-00-34-03-486) I like it.

[\[00:34:04\]](#transcript-00-34-04-487) Bro, we could do this all day.

[\[00:34:05\]](#transcript-00-34-05-488) The point is, we could do this all day.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-489) Yeah, we could just get confused or nervous or misled sometimes by people who don't like this.

[\[00:34:13\]](#transcript-00-34-13-490) And they say, Well, that's just Mosaic law, you know.

[\[00:34:18\]](#transcript-00-34-18-491) And we would say, No, yeah, it's true.

[\[00:34:21\]](#transcript-00-34-21-492) Jesus was born under that administration of the law.

[\[00:34:24\]](#transcript-00-34-24-493) That's true.

[\[00:34:26\]](#transcript-00-34-26-494) He was born as an Israelite.

[\[00:34:28\]](#transcript-00-34-28-495) All of that's true.

[\[00:34:30\]](#transcript-00-34-30-496) But there's always the moral law built in even the Mosaic law.

[\[00:34:34\]](#transcript-00-34-34-497) As a covenant of works.

[\[00:34:35\]](#transcript-00-34-35-498) As a covenant of works.

[\[00:34:36\]](#transcript-00-34-36-499) So, regardless, trans-testamentally, to make things up, we would say it's always been true that human beings are required to love their creator appropriately.

[\[00:34:46\]](#transcript-00-34-46-500) So, heart, soul, mind, and strength, neighbor as yourself.

[\[00:34:49\]](#transcript-00-34-49-501) That's old.

[\[00:34:49\]](#transcript-00-34-49-502) That's new.

[\[00:34:51\]](#transcript-00-34-51-503) So don't be misled by that, dear listeners, to Theocast and the Pactum.

[\[00:34:57\]](#transcript-00-34-57-504) We acknowledge that it is a different administration.

[\[00:35:00\]](#transcript-00-35-00-505) Yeah.

[\[00:35:01\]](#transcript-00-35-01-506) No, amen.

[\[00:35:03\]](#transcript-00-35-03-507) I'd like to highlight some confusion that exists kind of broadly, maybe with a law and gospel paradigm, if you guys will permit it.

[\[00:35:11\]](#transcript-00-35-11-508) And we can edit this out if it's no good.

[\[00:35:14\]](#transcript-00-35-14-509) So there was a video released by a theologian relatively well known.

[\[00:35:22\]](#transcript-00-35-22-510) There was something he said in the beginning of the video that was not received well, but then later in the video, he said this: that if he had an opportunity to speak to a congregation that he perceived to

[\[00:35:33\]](#transcript-00-35-33-511) be effectively nominal, right, like Christian in name only, so, false professors, right?

[\[00:35:42\]](#transcript-00-35-42-512) He would preach on the doctrine of the new birth.

[\[00:35:46\]](#transcript-00-35-46-513) And I thought, that's interesting.

[\[00:35:48\]](#transcript-00-35-48-514) I don't think that's what I would preach at all.

[\[00:35:51\]](#transcript-00-35-51-515) I think if I were preaching to a congregation that I understood to be nominal, Christian in name only, what would I do?

[\[00:35:58\]](#transcript-00-35-58-516) I would preach the law in all of its holiness.

[\[00:36:01\]](#transcript-00-36-01-517) Like you said, Pat, you absolutely let it rip on the law, it's a revelation of God's character who gave it.

[\[00:36:07\]](#transcript-00-36-07-518) God never changes, his law never changes.

[\[00:36:10\]](#transcript-00-36-10-519) God is perfect and holy, and so is the standard.

[\[00:36:12\]](#transcript-00-36-12-520) You know, personal, perfect, perpetual obedience.

[\[00:36:16\]](#transcript-00-36-16-521) Good luck with that.

[\[00:36:17\]](#transcript-00-36-17-522) How are you doing?

[\[00:36:18\]](#transcript-00-36-18-523) yeah, then having done that, you herald Jesus Christ to these people as the law keeper and as the one who died to fulfill the law's curse in the place of anyone who would ever trust in him, right?

[\[00:36:31\]](#transcript-00-36-31-524) And then hold him out in his triumphant resurrection, vindicated in all of his work, pointing back to that covenant of redemption, how God had determined to plant to save a people from before the foundations of the world.

[\[00:36:41\]](#transcript-00-36-41-525) And Jesus is the savior.

[\[00:36:43\]](#transcript-00-36-43-526) Trust him.

[\[00:36:44\]](#transcript-00-36-44-527) That's my message.

[\[00:36:45\]](#transcript-00-36-45-528) If I'm going to be preaching to a people that are nominal, but yet we have guys running around, guys who know better running around saying, I'm going to tell people that they need to be born again.

[\[00:36:56\]](#transcript-00-36-56-529) Okay, so just to, you know, think out loud together here on this episode.

[\[00:37:00\]](#transcript-00-37-00-530) So, I'd be okay doing the new birth, but in a certain sense, if I say But in a way, born again, how about this?

[\[00:37:08\]](#transcript-00-37-08-531) You must be born again.

[\[00:37:10\]](#transcript-00-37-10-532) That's what Jesus says.

[\[00:37:11\]](#transcript-00-37-11-533) Is that law or gospel?

[\[00:37:12\]](#transcript-00-37-12-534) No, amen.

[\[00:37:13\]](#transcript-00-37-13-535) That's law, brother.

[\[00:37:14\]](#transcript-00-37-14-536) That's law, baby.

[\[00:37:15\]](#transcript-00-37-15-537) That's what does he do?

[\[00:37:18\]](#transcript-00-37-18-538) Yeah.

[\[00:37:18\]](#transcript-00-37-18-539) So that's the requirement.

[\[00:37:19\]](#transcript-00-37-19-540) You must be born again is law.

[\[00:37:21\]](#transcript-00-37-21-541) That's right.

[\[00:37:21\]](#transcript-00-37-21-542) Yes.

[\[00:37:22\]](#transcript-00-37-22-543) So, no, that's good, dude.

[\[00:37:24\]](#transcript-00-37-24-544) So you must be born again.

[\[00:37:25\]](#transcript-00-37-25-545) John 3 is lost.

[\[00:37:27\]](#transcript-00-37-27-546) What is it?

[\[00:37:28\]](#transcript-00-37-28-547) It's the requirement.

[\[00:37:30\]](#transcript-00-37-30-548) I'm just thinking out loud.

[\[00:37:32\]](#transcript-00-37-32-549) Notice he doesn't say, here's how to do it.

[\[00:37:36\]](#transcript-00-37-36-550) That's right.

[\[00:37:37\]](#transcript-00-37-37-551) But it is the requirement.

[\[00:37:40\]](#transcript-00-37-40-552) But then, what does he say at the end of that?

[\[00:37:42\]](#transcript-00-37-42-553) He says: just as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up.

[\[00:37:47\]](#transcript-00-37-47-554) There in John 3, I wouldn't preaching John 3.

[\[00:37:50\]](#transcript-00-37-50-555) I would do that.

[\[00:37:52\]](#transcript-00-37-52-556) No.

[\[00:37:53\]](#transcript-00-37-53-557) But you're going to preach with the serpent lifted up in the wilderness as Christ on the cross for sinners.

[\[00:37:58\]](#transcript-00-37-58-558) Absolutely.

[\[00:37:59\]](#transcript-00-37-59-559) Amen.

[\[00:38:00\]](#transcript-00-38-00-560) Because so often, people, what they get, I mean, you guys have said this in various ways, but often what people get when you collapse these categories is you kind of get the law preached as gospel.

[\[00:38:08\]](#transcript-00-38-08-561) You know, we dumb it down and relativize it, do your best in keeping the law, and if you do well enough, then you're going to be saved in the end.

[\[00:38:14\]](#transcript-00-38-14-562) Well, that's the law preached as gospel and it's damning.

[\[00:38:17\]](#transcript-00-38-17-563) Whereas we often get the gospel preached as law, you know, obey well enough and you'll be saved.

[\[00:38:22\]](#transcript-00-38-22-564) It's just, it's unhelpful when those categories are collapsed.

[\[00:38:26\]](#transcript-00-38-26-565) GRN and Theocast, we want to promote three uses of the law because the third use of the law, which is for us, it's a guide, it directs us and it points us to the beauty and the glory of

[\[00:38:37\]](#transcript-00-38-37-566) Christ for God's glory and the betterment of our neighbor, right?

[\[00:38:43\]](#transcript-00-38-43-567) It's for your advantage that we utilize that.

[\[00:38:46\]](#transcript-00-38-46-568) So when someone says, you guys just emphasize grace, you just emphasize grace, you don't care about the law, I think that it's unfair when you have someone who's confessional and reformed and encourages church discipline based upon the third

[\[00:38:59\]](#transcript-00-38-59-569) use of the law.

[\[00:39:00\]](#transcript-00-39-00-570) You know, someone says there's nowhere in the Bible that says there's three uses of the law.

[\[00:39:04\]](#transcript-00-39-04-571) This goes down to Trinity again.

[\[00:39:06\]](#transcript-00-39-06-572) It's a helpful way.

[\[00:39:07\]](#transcript-00-39-07-573) Yeah, it's a word concept fallacy.

[\[00:39:09\]](#transcript-00-39-09-574) It's helpful way to describe how the Bible functions and sections itself.

[\[00:39:13\]](#transcript-00-39-13-575) Just like there's nowhere in the Bible it says Old Testament, New Testament.

[\[00:39:16\]](#transcript-00-39-16-576) But we make that division for the sake of clarity.

[\[00:39:18\]](#transcript-00-39-18-577) I have seen greater growth and maturity in the congregation since the law-gospel distinction is in place and say, This is what the law demands.

[\[00:39:28\]](#transcript-00-39-28-578) This is what Christ has done.

[\[00:39:29\]](#transcript-00-39-29-579) Let us rest in Christ.

[\[00:39:30\]](#transcript-00-39-30-580) Let us run to Christ, and I have seen greater maturity and greater growth in myself and the body of believers than I ever did preaching law.

[\[00:39:40\]](#transcript-00-39-40-581) That's good.

[\[00:39:41\]](#transcript-00-39-41-582) Antinomianism against the law.

[\[00:39:44\]](#transcript-00-39-44-583) Heard of it, yes.

[\[00:39:45\]](#transcript-00-39-45-584) We've been accused of it before, yes.

[\[00:39:47\]](#transcript-00-39-47-585) I'll make some historical comments maybe in a minute.

[\[00:39:49\]](#transcript-00-39-49-586) There were a number of other brothers, have been a number of other men who have gone before us, many, and you're going to know their names who have been accused of the same thing.

[\[00:39:56\]](#transcript-00-39-56-587) John Owen, Thomas Boston, to name two, were accused of antinomianism in their own eras, in the ways that they wrote and spoke, and were dogged about this: the distinction between the law and the gospel and the ways that

[\[00:40:09\]](#transcript-00-40-09-588) we hold Jesus out to sinners.

[\[00:40:11\]](#transcript-00-40-11-589) It's like you said, in a sense, it is ridiculous.

[\[00:40:14\]](#transcript-00-40-14-590) To fallen human reason in the legal frame that we have, it

[\[00:40:19\]](#transcript-00-40-19-591) sounds crazy.

[\[00:40:21\]](#transcript-00-40-21-592) But to be antinomian, historically speaking, is a couple of things.

[\[00:40:24\]](#transcript-00-40-24-593) It is to deny the third use of the law, right?

[\[00:40:27\]](#transcript-00-40-27-594) To deny that the law has a place in the life of the Christian to guide.

[\[00:40:31\]](#transcript-00-40-31-595) Chapter 19, paragraph 6, that you read is absolute gold when it comes to how we think about the law's usefulness and the goodness of the law in the life of the Christian, we are no longer under it as

[\[00:40:41\]](#transcript-00-40-41-596) a covenant of works to be kept for righteousness or to be condemned by it based upon our disobedience.

[\[00:40:46\]](#transcript-00-40-46-597) That is true.

[\[00:40:47\]](#transcript-00-40-47-598) But when it comes to how do I know what righteousness looks like?

[\[00:40:50\]](#transcript-00-40-50-599) I look to the law.

[\[00:40:51\]](#transcript-00-40-51-600) How do I know what's good for my neighbor?

[\[00:40:52\]](#transcript-00-40-52-601) I look to the law.

[\[00:40:53\]](#transcript-00-40-53-602) How do I know what's good for me, for my wife, for my children?

[\[00:40:56\]](#transcript-00-40-56-603) And we look to the law and we appeal to it unashamedly in all those ways.

[\[00:41:00\]](#transcript-00-41-00-604) And so, whenever you start talking like that, you are in no way, in any kind of historical or theological sense, an antinomian.

[\[00:41:06\]](#transcript-00-41-06-605) Right?

[\[00:41:07\]](#transcript-00-41-07-606) We do say the law no longer exists in any way for righteousness.

[\[00:41:13\]](#transcript-00-41-13-607) That's true.

[\[00:41:14\]](#transcript-00-41-14-608) That's scandalous.

[\[00:41:15\]](#transcript-00-41-15-609) I mean, Calvin writes in his Institutes, and when it comes to us standing before the judgment seat of God, the law has no place in our conscience.

[\[00:41:25\]](#transcript-00-41-25-610) I guess Calvin was an antinomian as well.

[\[00:41:27\]](#transcript-00-41-27-611) You know, when it comes to these matters.

[\[00:41:28\]](#transcript-00-41-28-612) And so, the three uses of the law, just really briefly, this is why this is critical to maintain.

[\[00:41:33\]](#transcript-00-41-33-613) The first use of the law is to show us our sin and drive us to Christ who kept it.

[\[00:41:36\]](#transcript-00-41-36-614) The second use is broader, it's civil, it restrains human corruption because we're shown what's good and bad, right and wrong.

[\[00:41:42\]](#transcript-00-41-42-615) There's curses for breaking it, there's blessings for keeping it.

[\[00:41:45\]](#transcript-00-41-45-616) Third use of the law in Christ guides our living, and we by the Spirit seek conformity unto it, and that is a good and wonderful thing.

[\[00:41:52\]](#transcript-00-41-52-617) So that's how we respond to that.

[\[00:41:55\]](#transcript-00-41-55-618) But we don't ever collapse the law and the gospel when it comes to righteousness and standing and relationship to God.

[\[00:42:02\]](#transcript-00-42-02-619) And we make no apologies for that.

[\[00:42:04\]](#transcript-00-42-04-620) The helpful way of thinking about it for someone who's struggling with, no, this sounds antinomian.

[\[00:42:09\]](#transcript-00-42-09-621) So the law are road signs, they're telling you the way, right?

[\[00:42:15\]](#transcript-00-42-15-622) This is the way you should go.

[\[00:42:17\]](#transcript-00-42-17-623) But the roadside can't make you go anywhere, it's just pointing to the direction.

[\[00:42:21\]](#transcript-00-42-21-624) You have to have a power that actually carries you in the direction that the roadside is pointing.

[\[00:42:26\]](#transcript-00-42-26-625) And this is where Paul says: he who began a good work in you will complete it, right?

[\[00:42:31\]](#transcript-00-42-31-626) As you began by grace, you're going to continue by grace.

[\[00:42:34\]](#transcript-00-42-34-627) So we emphasize and preach grace, right?

[\[00:42:38\]](#transcript-00-42-38-628) Because we know that's the motion, that's the motion, that's the motivation.

[\[00:42:41\]](#transcript-00-42-41-629) That's what does 1 Peter 1:9 say?

[\[00:42:44\]](#transcript-00-42-44-630) Why are you not following the road signs?

[\[00:42:46\]](#transcript-00-42-46-631) Is it not that you forgot you've been cleansed, right?

[\[00:42:49\]](#transcript-00-42-49-632) It's not because somehow the road signs cause it.

[\[00:42:53\]](#transcript-00-42-53-633) And that's what's so helpful: is that the law is a great arrow pointing: here's where one should go, and here's how one gets there, which is in Christ.

[\[00:43:02\]](#transcript-00-43-02-634) Well, it's Christ for pardon and Christ for power.

[\[00:43:04\]](#transcript-00-43-04-635) That's what you're talking about.

[\[00:43:06\]](#transcript-00-43-06-636) Pardon from sin, power unto sanctification.

[\[00:43:08\]](#transcript-00-43-08-637) So I am an antinomian when it comes to that.

[\[00:43:10\]](#transcript-00-43-10-638) Right.

[\[00:43:11\]](#transcript-00-43-11-639) Well, when it comes to justification and standing and righteousness.

[\[00:43:14\]](#transcript-00-43-14-640) Well, yeah.

[\[00:43:14\]](#transcript-00-43-14-641) The law cannot produce righteousness in me.

[\[00:43:17\]](#transcript-00-43-17-642) Exactly.

[\[00:43:18\]](#transcript-00-43-18-643) It can't transform.

[\[00:43:18\]](#transcript-00-43-18-644) It can only be.

[\[00:43:19\]](#transcript-00-43-19-645) No, that's right.

[\[00:43:20\]](#transcript-00-43-20-646) Yeah.

[\[00:43:20\]](#transcript-00-43-20-647) The law is a covenant of works, does not work.

[\[00:43:22\]](#transcript-00-43-22-648) Right.

[\[00:43:22\]](#transcript-00-43-22-649) Right.

[\[00:43:23\]](#transcript-00-43-23-650) And so

[\[00:43:24\]](#transcript-00-43-24-651) one of the things I think that gets confused, right, is it's different.

[\[00:43:28\]](#transcript-00-43-28-652) It's a different thing to say the law is good, and it's a different thing to say the law is good news for sinners.

[\[00:43:33\]](#transcript-00-43-33-653) Those are two totally different things.

[\[00:43:35\]](#transcript-00-43-35-654) We say the law is not good news for sinners.

[\[00:43:37\]](#transcript-00-43-37-655) The law condemns sinners.

[\[00:43:39\]](#transcript-00-43-39-656) The law is good.

[\[00:43:40\]](#transcript-00-43-40-657) That's why it's bad for sinners.

[\[00:43:42\]](#transcript-00-43-42-658) I'm glad there's laws against murder.

[\[00:43:43\]](#transcript-00-43-43-659) I don't really want people to be free to come murder me.

[\[00:43:45\]](#transcript-00-43-45-660) I don't think that's a good thing.

[\[00:43:47\]](#transcript-00-43-47-661) If I am a murderer, is that law good for me now?

[\[00:43:49\]](#transcript-00-43-49-662) No.

[\[00:43:50\]](#transcript-00-43-50-663) No.

[\[00:43:50\]](#transcript-00-43-50-664) Not because that law is bad, but because I am bad.

[\[00:43:54\]](#transcript-00-43-54-665) The law is good.

[\[00:43:56\]](#transcript-00-43-56-666) The problem is that we are bad.

[\[00:43:58\]](#transcript-00-43-58-667) So when we say things like the law is not the good news.

[\[00:44:03\]](#transcript-00-44-03-668) That's what we mean.

[\[00:44:04\]](#transcript-00-44-04-669) It's not good news for sinners.

[\[00:44:05\]](#transcript-00-44-05-670) It is good.

[\[00:44:06\]](#transcript-00-44-06-671) That's precisely why it's bad news for sinners.

[\[00:44:09\]](#transcript-00-44-09-672) Yeah, just to quote Charles, he says, collapsing dilutes the good news of both.

[\[00:44:14\]](#transcript-00-44-14-673) Like, if they're good apart from each other, and when you combine them together, then they both lose their goodness.

[\[00:44:20\]](#transcript-00-44-20-674) That's good.

[\[00:44:22\]](#transcript-00-44-22-675) And then, conversely, once we are united to Christ, the law becomes good for us.

[\[00:44:28\]](#transcript-00-44-28-676) Once we are justified, even the first use of the law for Christians is good.

[\[00:44:34\]](#transcript-00-44-34-677) Repentance is not this thing you do once, it's not the thing that unites you to Christ.

[\[00:44:37\]](#transcript-00-44-37-678) Repentance is the Christian.

[\[00:44:39\]](#transcript-00-44-39-679) Exactly, it's right.

[\[00:44:40\]](#transcript-00-44-40-680) It is what comes as the fruit of faith.

[\[00:44:42\]](#transcript-00-44-42-681) We live a life of repentance.

[\[00:44:43\]](#transcript-00-44-43-682) Now we constantly need to be reminded of our sinfulness and brought back to total dependence on Jesus Christ.

[\[00:44:50\]](#transcript-00-44-50-683) Amen.

[\[00:44:51\]](#transcript-00-44-51-684) And that's where the uses of the law are preached to the believer every week.

[\[00:44:54\]](#transcript-00-44-54-685) Absolutely.

[\[00:44:55\]](#transcript-00-44-55-686) In the first use to humble us and to continue to drive us to Christ and to cast ourselves on Him.

[\[00:44:59\]](#transcript-00-44-59-687) Third used to guide us, right?

[\[00:45:00\]](#transcript-00-45-00-688) And Paul's words in Romans 7 are helpful in this too.

[\[00:45:03\]](#transcript-00-45-03-689) I mean, when he speaks of how, you know, if given that the law is all these good things that he's already said, and the problem is sin in us, not anything with the law, right?

[\[00:45:12\]](#transcript-00-45-12-690) He says that, like, if I do, as a regenerate man, if I do what I don't want, then I agree with the law, then it is good, right?

[\[00:45:20\]](#transcript-00-45-20-691) Because the reason the unique paradox in the believer's life is that I have a flesh that loves sin and craves it, but I have an inner man, a regenerate part of me, that loves God's law and delights in

[\[00:45:32\]](#transcript-00-45-32-692) it, and I'm grieved when I break it.

[\[00:45:35\]](#transcript-00-45-35-693) Not because I've merited punishment, but because I love the Lord and I want to live in a way that pleases and honors Him and is good for my neighbor.

[\[00:45:43\]](#transcript-00-45-43-694) And so I'm agreeing with the law and with the Lord who gave it that it's good as a Christian.

[\[00:45:48\]](#transcript-00-45-48-695) And we should talk like this, right?

[\[00:45:50\]](#transcript-00-45-50-696) But we need to be clear on what we mean.

[\[00:45:52\]](#transcript-00-45-52-697) To hold a law, gospel distinction is not antinomian.

[\[00:45:55\]](#transcript-00-45-55-698) In fact, it's anti-antinomian.

[\[00:45:57\]](#transcript-00-45-57-699) Agreement.

[\[00:45:58\]](#transcript-00-45-58-700) If you have a proper law-gospel distinction, you actually have the highest view of God's law that can be because you won't relativize it.

[\[00:46:06\]](#transcript-00-46-06-701) If you're going to blend them, you have to relativize it, you have to move the target, you have to make it at least theoretically attainable if you're going to hold it out as good news.

[\[00:46:14\]](#transcript-00-46-14-702) But if you refuse to do that, if you say, No, the law is not the good news, the good news is only Christ, then you can keep the law of God as the perfect standard that flows out of

[\[00:46:23\]](#transcript-00-46-23-703) the very character and nature of God Himself, and you can uphold that.

[\[00:46:27\]](#transcript-00-46-27-704) Right.

[\[00:46:27\]](#transcript-00-46-27-705) Because the law is not the good news, the good news is Christ.

[\[00:46:31\]](#transcript-00-46-31-706) So it's actually law-gospel distinction's anti-antinomian.

[\[00:46:34\]](#transcript-00-46-34-707) Agree.

[\[00:46:35\]](#transcript-00-46-35-708) Do we overthrow the law by this faith, right?

[\[00:46:37\]](#transcript-00-46-37-709) By no means.

[\[00:46:38\]](#transcript-00-46-38-710) We uphold the law.

[\[00:46:40\]](#transcript-00-46-40-711) What's he talking about?

[\[00:46:41\]](#transcript-00-46-41-712) He's not talking about our spirit-wrought obedience.

[\[00:46:43\]](#transcript-00-46-43-713) He is talking about the fact that Christ died to endure the law's penalty and he lived to fulfill its requirements.

[\[00:46:50\]](#transcript-00-46-50-714) And what greater commendation of the law could there ever be than that God the Son, when he became a human being, put himself under it, lived and kept it, and died to fulfill its curse?

[\[00:47:00\]](#transcript-00-47-00-715) Like, do we overthrow the law?

[\[00:47:01\]](#transcript-00-47-01-716) Are you kidding?

[\[00:47:01\]](#transcript-00-47-01-717) No, we uphold and honor the law very much.

[\[00:47:04\]](#transcript-00-47-04-718) Look at what Christ did.

[\[00:47:06\]](#transcript-00-47-06-719) So, yeah, I agree with you.

[\[00:47:07\]](#transcript-00-47-07-720) To maintain this distinction, as the apostles did, is to be an anti-antinomia.

[\[00:47:13\]](#transcript-00-47-13-721) Where do we point to God's love dwelling up inside of us?

[\[00:47:17\]](#transcript-00-47-17-722) John doesn't point to the law.

[\[00:47:19\]](#transcript-00-47-19-723) The law produced love in you.

[\[00:47:20\]](#transcript-00-47-20-724) It says, No, we love because He first loved us, which is gospel, right?

[\[00:47:23\]](#transcript-00-47-23-725) And it's important that

[\[00:47:27\]](#transcript-00-47-27-726) it is the natural bent of every sinner who has grace in them to clamor for the law because, just as your beautiful illustration, we don't like to come with empty hands, it's embarrassing.

[\[00:47:42\]](#transcript-00-47-42-727) It's embarrassing to admit you're a sinner.

[\[00:47:44\]](#transcript-00-47-44-728) That's true.

[\[00:47:45\]](#transcript-00-47-45-729) But that's what the law demands.

[\[00:47:47\]](#transcript-00-47-47-730) And for those who get closer to the law and allow its light to shine on your filthiness, Christ and the gospel becomes brighter.

[\[00:47:54\]](#transcript-00-47-54-731) And what's happening in a lot of these law gospel collapsing of churches is that people want to come and have their ego stroked and be told they're doing well, and here's how to get better.

[\[00:48:06\]](#transcript-00-48-06-732) And we're standing up and knocking people out of the kneecaps.

[\[00:48:10\]](#transcript-00-48-10-733) And it's like, I don't like that at all.

[\[00:48:12\]](#transcript-00-48-12-734) You know, but it was like, yeah, but you need Jesus.

[\[00:48:14\]](#transcript-00-48-14-735) And this is the only way to get you there.

[\[00:48:16\]](#transcript-00-48-16-736) We live in an age because we're so anxious about nominalism, and because we have seen the bad fruit of revivalism, like easy believism and all these things, and walking aisles, and praying prayers, and mass baptisms, and the whole

[\[00:48:28\]](#transcript-00-48-28-737) thing.

[\[00:48:29\]](#transcript-00-48-29-738) We're so anxious about the fruit of all that.

[\[00:48:31\]](#transcript-00-48-31-739) We see the problem that's a legitimate problem, and so now what we often do is we make the gospel sound hard.

[\[00:48:38\]](#transcript-00-48-38-740) We think that's the antidote, right?

[\[00:48:40\]](#transcript-00-48-40-741) We introduce the demands of the gospel, it's hard to believe.

[\[00:48:45\]](#transcript-00-48-45-742) Well, yeah, you're exactly right.

[\[00:48:46\]](#transcript-00-48-46-743) It's hard to believe.

[\[00:48:47\]](#transcript-00-48-47-744) It's impossible to believe it actually, because God must give us his faith.

[\[00:48:50\]](#transcript-00-48-50-745) But the gospel is free, right?

[\[00:48:53\]](#transcript-00-48-53-746) It is.

[\[00:48:54\]](#transcript-00-48-54-747) It's that Isaiah 55 and that Matthew 11 reality.

[\[00:48:57\]](#transcript-00-48-57-748) So, may we never do that?

[\[00:49:00\]](#transcript-00-49-00-749) We don't live the gospel, we don't do the gospel, there are no demands of the gospel other than if there is one, believe it, receive it.

[\[00:49:07\]](#transcript-00-49-07-750) Can I throw a wrench in your illustration?

[\[00:49:08\]](#transcript-00-49-08-751) Because I know your answer, but I think everyone here is maybe thinking, yeah, but Paul and the confession says, obey the gospel.

[\[00:49:16\]](#transcript-00-49-16-752) I'm asking you.

[\[00:49:16\]](#transcript-00-49-16-753) Yeah, great.

[\[00:49:17\]](#transcript-00-49-17-754) I'm so glad that you said that.

[\[00:49:19\]](#transcript-00-49-19-755) Romans 1:5, Romans 16, 26, right?

[\[00:49:23\]](#transcript-00-49-23-756) Romans 10, 16, 17.

[\[00:49:25\]](#transcript-00-49-25-757) These are the verses that we're appealing to.

[\[00:49:28\]](#transcript-00-49-28-758) Paul will use the language in Romans 1 and Romans 16, the obedience of faith.

[\[00:49:32\]](#transcript-00-49-32-759) I think that's the dead giveaway, what he's talking about.

[\[00:49:35\]](#transcript-00-49-35-760) And then when he says in Romans 10, 16, 17, not everyone has obeyed the gospel.

[\[00:49:40\]](#transcript-00-49-40-761) What does it mean to obey the gospel?

[\[00:49:42\]](#transcript-00-49-42-762) Very simple answer: believe in Jesus.

[\[00:49:46\]](#transcript-00-49-46-763) That's it.

[\[00:49:47\]](#transcript-00-49-47-764) The obedience of faith, faith in Christ.

[\[00:49:50\]](#transcript-00-49-50-765) So I think that's how I would answer that question.

[\[00:49:53\]](#transcript-00-49-53-766) And that's where they'll take a portion of scripture and twist it and say, no, but there are demands in the gospel, and there aren't.

[\[00:50:01\]](#transcript-00-50-01-767) And it's important because sometimes people will hear what you say, and they think that you're just being over-dramatic.

[\[00:50:06\]](#transcript-00-50-06-768) No.

[\[00:50:06\]](#transcript-00-50-06-769) Which you can be.

[\[00:50:07\]](#transcript-00-50-07-770) I've known you long enough.

[\[00:50:08\]](#transcript-00-50-08-771) Hyperbolic, right?

[\[00:50:10\]](#transcript-00-50-10-772) Well, but in this area here.

[\[00:50:11\]](#transcript-00-50-11-773) But this is where we say things like this, too.

[\[00:50:13\]](#transcript-00-50-13-774) There are all kinds of implications that flow from the gospel.

[\[00:50:18\]](#transcript-00-50-18-775) You better believe there are because of the gospel, because of our union with Christ.

[\[00:50:24\]](#transcript-00-50-24-776) Everything changes, right?

[\[00:50:26\]](#transcript-00-50-26-777) Amen to all that.

[\[00:50:28\]](#transcript-00-50-28-778) But the implications of the gospel are not the gospel.

[\[00:50:31\]](#transcript-00-50-31-779) Yeah, so the gospel is news, right?

[\[00:50:33\]](#transcript-00-50-33-780) It is good news.

[\[00:50:34\]](#transcript-00-50-34-781) It is good news.

[\[00:50:35\]](#transcript-00-50-35-782) It comes from this idea of these heralds who would go out and proclaim the king, the Caesar's victory.

[\[00:50:42\]](#transcript-00-50-42-783) He would declare the glory of Caesar because he conquers his enemies.

[\[00:50:48\]](#transcript-00-50-48-784) That's what the gospel is.

[\[00:50:49\]](#transcript-00-50-49-785) We are heralding the victory of King Jesus.

[\[00:50:53\]](#transcript-00-50-53-786) There is no command in there.

[\[00:50:55\]](#transcript-00-50-55-787) It is the declaration of the victory of Jesus Christ.

[\[00:50:59\]](#transcript-00-50-59-788) Now, if Jesus Christ is victorious, if he has conquered sin and death and done that on behalf of his people, does that mean stuff for me?

[\[00:51:07\]](#transcript-00-51-07-789) Absolutely, it does.

[\[00:51:08\]](#transcript-00-51-08-790) Is there a response that you should have?

[\[00:51:10\]](#transcript-00-51-10-791) Response to that?

[\[00:51:11\]](#transcript-00-51-11-792) Absolutely, there is.

[\[00:51:12\]](#transcript-00-51-12-793) That's the differentiation between implications and what the gospel is.

[\[00:51:17\]](#transcript-00-51-17-794) Don't help the gospel by blending those two things together, right?

[\[00:51:21\]](#transcript-00-51-21-795) You introduce yourself into Jesus' victory, and that's not what we want to do.

[\[00:51:25\]](#transcript-00-51-25-796) The gospel is Jesus' victory.

[\[00:51:27\]](#transcript-00-51-27-797) Jesus does the gospel.

[\[00:51:28\]](#transcript-00-51-28-798) Nobody else has ever lived the gospel.

[\[00:51:31\]](#transcript-00-51-31-799) Jesus does.

[\[00:51:32\]](#transcript-00-51-32-800) We think that if we make Christianity harder, then we're going to weed out the weak and the fakers, and the weak, not like sincere weak.

[\[00:51:42\]](#transcript-00-51-42-801) But we're just going to weed out the people that don't belong.

[\[00:51:46\]](#transcript-00-51-46-802) And it makes pastoring easier.

[\[00:51:49\]](#transcript-00-51-49-803) And here, man.

[\[00:51:52\]](#transcript-00-51-52-804) Because if I can put a whole bunch of burdens on people and I can give them a standard, and because

[\[00:52:00\]](#transcript-00-52-00-805) Grace is sloppy.

[\[00:52:03\]](#transcript-00-52-03-806) Grace is messy.

[\[00:52:04\]](#transcript-00-52-04-807) Let me hear what you're saying, though.

[\[00:52:05\]](#transcript-00-52-05-808) Nope, sorry.

[\[00:52:06\]](#transcript-00-52-06-809) I'd never use one of these, obviously.

[\[00:52:08\]](#transcript-00-52-08-810) Grace is sloppy.

[\[00:52:10\]](#transcript-00-52-10-811) It's just, if I can put a bunch of rules and I can kind of ground it somewhere in scripture, and then I can put burdens on people, I can place guilt on them, and I can make them toe

[\[00:52:22\]](#transcript-00-52-22-812) the line that my calendar stays less full, and I feel like I've accomplished more because I've got people goose-stepping.

[\[00:52:30\]](#transcript-00-52-30-813) Yeah.

[\[00:52:30\]](#transcript-00-52-30-814) Does that make sense?

[\[00:52:32\]](#transcript-00-52-32-815) Yeah, and I want to be clear: I'm not impugning anybody's motivations.

[\[00:52:35\]](#transcript-00-52-35-816) I trust that the motivations are good.

[\[00:52:37\]](#transcript-00-52-37-817) People look around, guys look around, and they see real problems.

[\[00:52:40\]](#transcript-00-52-40-818) Yeah, right?

[\[00:52:41\]](#transcript-00-52-41-819) Maybe it's conscious.

[\[00:52:42\]](#transcript-00-52-42-820) This is bad, like this is there's bad fruit everywhere, and there are a lot of false professors in the church, right?

[\[00:52:48\]](#transcript-00-52-48-821) So to speak.

[\[00:52:49\]](#transcript-00-52-49-822) And so then it's like, all right, what do we do?

[\[00:52:51\]](#transcript-00-52-51-823) And I think, devoid of some of these historical categories and given our natural frame to weave works back in, we take this kind of green beret approach to Christianity.

[\[00:53:01\]](#transcript-00-53-01-824) Only the strong survive, right?

[\[00:53:02\]](#transcript-00-53-02-825) And only the serious among us are the ones who really are legitimate.

[\[00:53:05\]](#transcript-00-53-05-826) And so let's turn the temperature up on the law to test who's legitimate and who's not.

[\[00:53:10\]](#transcript-00-53-10-827) You miss the tears instead of missing about wolves.

[\[00:53:12\]](#transcript-00-53-12-828) And it's like well, we need to try to tear the weeds out, you know, amongst the wheat.

[\[00:53:17\]](#transcript-00-53-17-829) Jesus said, Don't do that, actually.

[\[00:53:18\]](#transcript-00-53-18-830) Right.

[\[00:53:18\]](#transcript-00-53-18-831) Because you're going to rip the wheat up with it.

[\[00:53:20\]](#transcript-00-53-20-832) I mean, in the parable, and it's what he says.

[\[00:53:22\]](#transcript-00-53-22-833) Right.

[\[00:53:22\]](#transcript-00-53-22-834) And so I think a lot of times we try to over-purify.

[\[00:53:25\]](#transcript-00-53-25-835) And I mean, we're talking about, we're Baptists here, I mean, we're talking about regenerate church membership, but we don't want to be Donatists and try to over-purify the church.

[\[00:53:34\]](#transcript-00-53-34-836) The law of God is sometimes referred to, the law that we're talking about right now, sometimes referred to as the moral law or the law of creation is written into humanity.

[\[00:53:43\]](#transcript-00-53-43-837) It's written into the world that God makes from the very beginning, and then is summarized and given to Moses on two tablets of stone, otherwise known as the Ten Commandments.

[\[00:53:51\]](#transcript-00-53-51-838) So, when we're saying the law right now, we're talking about the moral law of God, just to be very clear.

[\[00:53:57\]](#transcript-00-53-57-839) What man has done throughout history, it's very obvious, the biblical record bears this out.

[\[00:54:02\]](#transcript-00-54-02-840) We have turned that moral law of God into something that we can keep in order to be saved.

[\[00:54:08\]](#transcript-00-54-08-841) We have deluded ourselves into thinking that we can do it.

[\[00:54:11\]](#transcript-00-54-11-842) Now, God in His Word does say things like, Do these things and you will live, Leviticus chapter 18 and verse 5.

[\[00:54:17\]](#transcript-00-54-17-843) Cursed is everyone who does not do everything that is written in the book of the law, Deuteronomy 27, 26, right?

[\[00:54:23\]](#transcript-00-54-23-844) Like these things are real from the Lord.

[\[00:54:26\]](#transcript-00-54-26-845) The problem is that man has taken those verses so literally on the surface of them to think that we can actually keep God's law well enough to merit eternal life.

[\[00:54:36\]](#transcript-00-54-36-846) There was one opportunity for man to obey and merit eternal life that occurred in the Garden of Eden when God made a covenant with our first father, Adam, and Adam failed to keep that covenant and was therefore cursed

[\[00:54:48\]](#transcript-00-54-48-847) and was driven out of the garden by the Lord himself away from the presence of the tree of life because he would no longer be able to earn eternal life.

[\[00:54:57\]](#transcript-00-54-57-848) And so now, as we fast-forward through the history of humanity, the history of the world, the history of redemption, a man named Jesus of Nazareth shows up on the scene and preaches a sermon on the side of a

[\[00:55:06\]](#transcript-00-55-06-849) hill that's pretty famous.

[\[00:55:07\]](#transcript-00-55-07-850) It's called the Sermon on the Mount.

[\[00:55:09\]](#transcript-00-55-09-851) And what he does in that sermon, amongst other things, is to teach people as the Lord Himself, like He's the Lord in the flesh, He's going to teach people how they are to understand and apply the moral law

[\[00:55:21\]](#transcript-00-55-21-852) of God.

[\[00:55:22\]](#transcript-00-55-22-853) And He crushes everyone in that sermon, He makes it quite plain that no human being is able to do this.

[\[00:55:29\]](#transcript-00-55-29-854) And right now, you may be listening to me and you're thinking, bro, you ain't said a good thing yet.

[\[00:55:32\]](#transcript-00-55-32-855) Like everything you're saying so far sounds condemning and it's not hope-filled.

[\[00:55:38\]](#transcript-00-55-38-856) It's crushing my soul.

[\[00:55:40\]](#transcript-00-55-40-857) And I'm here with you.

[\[00:55:41\]](#transcript-00-55-41-858) And here comes the good news: Jesus of Nazareth, God the Son incarnate, came and placed himself willingly under that same law.

[\[00:55:51\]](#transcript-00-55-51-859) Galatians 4, 4, and 5.

[\[00:55:53\]](#transcript-00-55-53-860) At the right time, Christ was born of woman, born under the law, in order to redeem those who were under the law.

[\[00:56:00\]](#transcript-00-56-00-861) Well, how did he do that?

[\[00:56:01\]](#transcript-00-56-01-862) He came and he placed himself under that law and he died under that law.

[\[00:56:05\]](#transcript-00-56-05-863) He paid the penalty that a lawbreaker deserves.

[\[00:56:08\]](#transcript-00-56-08-864) Though he had never broken the law and did not deserve to die, he died as the representative of all who would ever trust in him.

[\[00:56:15\]](#transcript-00-56-15-865) He died as the representative of all of his people from all time.

[\[00:56:19\]](#transcript-00-56-19-866) And when he did that, because he is God and therefore infinite, he is able to atone for all of the law-breaking of everyone who he represents.

[\[00:56:29\]](#transcript-00-56-29-867) So that's huge.

[\[00:56:30\]](#transcript-00-56-30-868) The penalty of the law has been fulfilled.

[\[00:56:32\]](#transcript-00-56-32-869) The justice of God in the law has been fulfilled in full by Christ for his people's sake.

[\[00:56:38\]](#transcript-00-56-38-870) So we are free from the condemnation of the law.

[\[00:56:41\]](#transcript-00-56-41-871) Huge.

[\[00:56:42\]](#transcript-00-56-42-872) Second thing that he did, he fulfilled all righteousness.

[\[00:56:46\]](#transcript-00-56-46-873) He kept the law perfectly his entire life.

[\[00:56:50\]](#transcript-00-56-50-874) He did and kept his father's every word.

[\[00:56:54\]](#transcript-00-56-54-875) The law he followed perfectly.

[\[00:56:56\]](#transcript-00-56-56-876) So, all God's pleasure he secured for us.

[\[00:56:59\]](#transcript-00-56-59-877) All this and more, he earned for me, right?

[\[00:57:02\]](#transcript-00-57-02-878) And as a song we sing in our church goes, Because his righteous life is mine, and all his merits now I own.

[\[00:57:08\]](#transcript-00-57-08-879) I am a child of God on high.

[\[00:57:11\]](#transcript-00-57-11-880) I am adopted, loved, and known.

[\[00:57:12\]](#transcript-00-57-12-881) So, Christ has secured all of that for us through his own righteous life that is counted to us by faith.

[\[00:57:18\]](#transcript-00-57-18-882) So, in a nutshell, law and gospel in its most primary sense, the law in its first use is to show us our sin and drive us to Christ because Christ willingly subjected himself and put himself under the law

[\[00:57:31\]](#transcript-00-57-31-883) to die under it for us, to fulfill its penalty and to live under it for us to fulfill its requirements.

[\[00:57:38\]](#transcript-00-57-38-884) And He's done both.

[\[00:57:39\]](#transcript-00-57-39-885) And so, what that means, John, is that we're free from the condemnation of the law, and all of the requirements of the law have been met in Christ for us.

[\[00:57:47\]](#transcript-00-57-47-886) So everything that He did, it's as though we did it.

[\[00:57:49\]](#transcript-00-57-49-887) It's as though we've already died, penalty paid, it's as though we lived a perfect life, righteousness earned.

[\[00:57:56\]](#transcript-00-57-56-888) Though we've not done any of it, He did it for us.

[\[00:57:59\]](#transcript-00-57-59-889) And that's the gospel.

[\[00:58:00\]](#transcript-00-58-00-890) I just preached James chapter 2, and it's that famous verse that Justin and I quote all the time: you know, whoever keeps the whole law, but yet fails in one point, he has become guilty of it all.

[\[00:58:11\]](#transcript-00-58-11-891) That's James is summarizing the intentions of the first use of the law.

[\[00:58:16\]](#transcript-00-58-16-892) You know, what's interesting of why James says that?

[\[00:58:19\]](#transcript-00-58-19-893) Most people don't know why he says that's just kind of verses quoted often.

[\[00:58:22\]](#transcript-00-58-22-894) And I would even say out of context, James is dealing with an issue within the churches where they're showing partiality.

[\[00:58:29\]](#transcript-00-58-29-895) And the reason they're showing partiality is because of their own, they are justifying their sin.

[\[00:58:35\]](#transcript-00-58-35-896) They don't see what they're doing as being hurtful, and not only that, ungodly.

[\[00:58:40\]](#transcript-00-58-40-897) So, James comes in and goes, You don't understand.

[\[00:58:43\]](#transcript-00-58-43-898) Like, you have missed the whole point of the gospel.

[\[00:58:48\]](#transcript-00-58-48-899) The law comes in and shows you that you have absolutely violated it, and you're violating it now by showing partiality.

[\[00:58:56\]](#transcript-00-58-56-900) And you need the mercy of God because the next thing he says later down is he says, So speak and so act as those who are judged under the law of liberty, which means those who have been set

[\[00:59:07\]](#transcript-00-59-07-901) free from the law.

[\[00:59:08\]](#transcript-00-59-08-902) Another way of saying this is you need to show mercy because you've received mercy.

[\[00:59:13\]](#transcript-00-59-13-903) That's what the first use of the law is for.

[\[00:59:16\]](#transcript-00-59-16-904) You should never look at the law and think to yourself, oh man, I failed God.

[\[00:59:21\]](#transcript-00-59-21-905) I need to try harder.

[\[00:59:23\]](#transcript-00-59-23-906) You've missed it.

[\[00:59:24\]](#transcript-00-59-24-907) You're supposed to look at the law and say, man, I have failed God.

[\[00:59:29\]](#transcript-00-59-29-908) What am I going to do?

[\[00:59:30\]](#transcript-00-59-30-909) Where am I going to look now?

[\[00:59:32\]](#transcript-00-59-32-910) And this is as Justin said.

[\[00:59:34\]](#transcript-00-59-34-911) If you rightly feel the crushing power of the law, you should be ground into powdered, blown away, saying, I have no strength.

[\[00:59:43\]](#transcript-00-59-43-912) Then you turn and say, What news?

[\[00:59:46\]](#transcript-00-59-46-913) What do I have?

[\[00:59:47\]](#transcript-00-59-47-914) And there is what's called good news, right?

[\[00:59:49\]](#transcript-00-59-49-915) Of that which has been done.

[\[00:59:51\]](#transcript-00-59-51-916) So, what's helpful when we think about law, gospel, and sanctification.

[\[00:59:57\]](#transcript-00-59-57-917) Just in these two things, the law first use often is lowered.

[\[01:00:02\]](#transcript-01-00-02-918) We ignore what James says.

[\[01:00:03\]](#transcript-01-00-03-919) It's like, yeah, we relativize it.

[\[01:00:05\]](#transcript-01-00-05-920) It's like, yeah, well, you know, I haven't done, as he says, he's going to mention, he's going to really quote Jesus.

[\[01:00:12\]](#transcript-01-00-12-921) He's going to mention murder, then he's going to mention adultery.

[\[01:00:15\]](#transcript-01-00-15-922) And so we'll say, well, I haven't done those things, obviously.

[\[01:00:17\]](#transcript-01-00-17-923) I haven't broken those laws.

[\[01:00:19\]](#transcript-01-00-19-924) So then we've created what's called the acceptable sins clause, right?

[\[01:00:23\]](#transcript-01-00-23-925) Where we can be vicious with our words and our actions and ungracious and not show mercy, and yet we still consider ourselves to be acceptable in the eyes of God because I haven't done a comparative sin, which is

[\[01:00:35\]](#transcript-01-00-35-926) the big ones.

[\[01:00:36\]](#transcript-01-00-36-927) A person would read, you know, you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, etc., and then would just take those words at their value and say, Well, I haven't killed someone.

[\[01:00:47\]](#transcript-01-00-47-928) I'm doing well.

[\[01:00:48\]](#transcript-01-00-48-929) I haven't had sexual relations with someone who isn't my spouse.

[\[01:00:52\]](#transcript-01-00-52-930) I'm doing well.

[\[01:00:54\]](#transcript-01-00-54-931) And Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chapter five, takes those two commandments and says, You've heard it said, this, but I'm saying to you, here's how you need to understand that.

[\[01:01:05\]](#transcript-01-01-05-932) If you've been angry with somebody, you've broken the sixth commandment about murder.

[\[01:01:10\]](#transcript-01-01-10-933) If you have lusted after someone who's not your spouse, then you have broken the seventh commandment about adultery.

[\[01:01:16\]](#transcript-01-01-16-934) And so, a lesson we can learn from that is that there are spiritual meanings and applications to things that are not on the surface of the text, you know, in a commandment, for example, there's a way that we

[\[01:01:28\]](#transcript-01-01-28-935) should rightly unpack an exegete, to use a technical term, God's law.

[\[01:01:33\]](#transcript-01-01-33-936) And people have often not done that, John.

[\[01:01:36\]](#transcript-01-01-36-937) We codify everything and we put it in these human terms that are achievable, and we delude ourselves into thinking that we're doing a lot better than we're doing.

[\[01:01:44\]](#transcript-01-01-44-938) That's right.

[\[01:01:46\]](#transcript-01-01-46-939) So, going back to this law and gospel, the only thing that can set you free, I'll say the statement now, we can unpack it, but the only thing that can set you free and motivate you is the gospel.

[\[01:02:02\]](#transcript-01-02-02-940) Now, before we go into this, I want to go back and tie what James says, if you fail in one point of the law, you fell in all of them, and go back to the covenant of works.

[\[01:02:12\]](#transcript-01-02-12-941) This is why Justin and I would say covenant theology is the most Christocentric, freeing, so helpful in glorifying God and singing praises to His work and de-emphasizing the work of man.

[\[01:02:27\]](#transcript-01-02-27-942) When we start looking at scripture and you compare what the flow of scripture is, you learn right away that no one can keep the law.

[\[01:02:38\]](#transcript-01-02-38-943) One of my favorite, and Justin, I think, would agree, one of my favorite parts of covenant theology is the covenant that's made with David, the Davidic covenant.

[\[01:02:45\]](#transcript-01-02-45-944) And in that covenant, the psalmist says it this way: that

[\[01:02:51\]](#transcript-01-02-51-945) there is a promise that's been given.

[\[01:02:53\]](#transcript-01-02-53-946) And in that promise, that the son of David that sits on the throne and perfectly obeys my law will earn for everyone eternal not only righteousness but entrance into the kingdom.

[\[01:03:08\]](#transcript-01-03-08-947) So you have to understand when Jesus comes and he perfectly obeys the law, and you have people who are standing up to him saying, Well, yeah, no, I'm obeying the law.

[\[01:03:17\]](#transcript-01-03-17-948) And he's like, No, you don't understand.

[\[01:03:18\]](#transcript-01-03-18-949) You're not even close to me.

[\[01:03:20\]](#transcript-01-03-20-950) Like you, you should be grabbing onto my feet as the prostitute did.

[\[01:03:25\]](#transcript-01-03-25-951) You should be clinging on to me for dear life because your righteousness cannot match my righteousness because one sign of guilty is a sign of guilty altogether.

[\[01:03:35\]](#transcript-01-03-35-952) And this is why James comes in and says, We live as people under mercy.

[\[01:03:40\]](#transcript-01-03-40-953) And so we have to show mercy.

[\[01:03:43\]](#transcript-01-03-43-954) Every day we live as people under mercy.

[\[01:03:45\]](#transcript-01-03-45-955) This is why I love when Hebrews says that we can boldly run into the throne room of God and ask for what in a time of need?

[\[01:03:54\]](#transcript-01-03-54-956) Mercy and grace.

[\[01:03:56\]](#transcript-01-03-56-957) Because not before salvation, we need mercy, but after our regeneration and after our adoption, we still need mercy.

[\[01:04:03\]](#transcript-01-04-03-958) That's a big thing, John, that so many people seem to struggle to understand.

[\[01:04:06\]](#transcript-01-04-06-959) It's right.

[\[01:04:06\]](#transcript-01-04-06-960) It's like I needed a lot of grace and mercy on the front end, and now I'm just going to handle this.

[\[01:04:10\]](#transcript-01-04-10-961) Well, and that's why, first, John, this is why people confuse 1 John.

[\[01:04:14\]](#transcript-01-04-14-962) You know, I said this on Sunday, Justin.

[\[01:04:17\]](#transcript-01-04-17-963) We have presuppositions when it comes to scripture, we can easily lay them down on top of the Bible.

[\[01:04:22\]](#transcript-01-04-22-964) And I've seen people do this.

[\[01:04:23\]](#transcript-01-04-23-965) This is why it's so dangerous when someone gives me one verse and they say, Give me, you know, what does this mean?

[\[01:04:28\]](#transcript-01-04-28-966) I have this natural bent to want to apply it the way I want to apply it, which I always stop them.

[\[01:04:32\]](#transcript-01-04-32-967) I'm like, hey, we got to look at the context.

[\[01:04:34\]](#transcript-01-04-34-968) Why did they say that?

[\[01:04:35\]](#transcript-01-04-35-969) There's a reason why they said that.

[\[01:04:36\]](#transcript-01-04-36-970) But some of these presuppositions is that, like, when somebody reads James or 1 John, they can immediately apply it as, well, this, these are books about what, like, you need to be proving your salvation, right?

[\[01:04:47\]](#transcript-01-04-47-971) You need to be proving that you truly are a legitimate Christian.

[\[01:04:51\]](#transcript-01-04-51-972) Or if you go prosperity gospel, like when John says, or James says in James 2:8, if you are really obeying the commandments of love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing well, they can apply that as a transactional

[\[01:05:04\]](#transcript-01-05-04-973) relationship, like God will bless me if you're in the Lord's favorite.

[\[01:05:09\]](#transcript-01-05-09-974) That's right, if I'm doing an obedience.

[\[01:05:11\]](#transcript-01-05-11-975) James isn't using it like that at all, and neither is John.

[\[01:05:15\]](#transcript-01-05-15-976) James and 1 John both use it in this way.

[\[01:05:18\]](#transcript-01-05-18-977) Look to the law, first use.

[\[01:05:20\]](#transcript-01-05-20-978) You are not even remotely close because you can't do it perfectly.

[\[01:05:25\]](#transcript-01-05-25-979) Now look to the cross.

[\[01:05:26\]](#transcript-01-05-26-980) What did you receive?

[\[01:05:28\]](#transcript-01-05-28-981) Mercy.

[\[01:05:28\]](#transcript-01-05-28-982) Now, look to your brother, give him mercy.

[\[01:05:31\]](#transcript-01-05-31-983) It's always in that order.

[\[01:05:33\]](#transcript-01-05-33-984) But, Justin, what we tend to do is we kind of somehow loop it back up to the law and say, okay, law failed mercy.

[\[01:05:41\]](#transcript-01-05-41-985) Now I need to go back to prove that I'm no, like it ends at the cross.

[\[01:05:47\]](#transcript-01-05-47-986) And so, this is kind of where I think we should, if you're ready, go into this idea of law, gospel, then sanctification.

[\[01:05:53\]](#transcript-01-05-53-987) You know, Paul says, the law is a schoolmaster.

[\[01:05:57\]](#transcript-01-05-57-988) And I just think of old school Americans when teachers would walk around with twitches or long rulers and you were doing what you smack your hand.

[\[01:06:05\]](#transcript-01-06-05-989) Bloody knuckles.

[\[01:06:06\]](#transcript-01-06-06-990) Right.

[\[01:06:06\]](#transcript-01-06-06-991) And that's the point of it.

[\[01:06:07\]](#transcript-01-06-07-992) It's like you should look at the law as a sinner, and the law is not good.

[\[01:06:12\]](#transcript-01-06-12-993) The law is bad.

[\[01:06:13\]](#transcript-01-06-13-994) It just smacks you around and it says over and over: guilty, guilty, guilty, right?

[\[01:06:20\]](#transcript-01-06-20-995) But when you set, when you're set free from it, and you can look back as one who is not being judged by the law, you can look at as one who's been justified and cleansed and set free.

[\[01:06:31\]](#transcript-01-06-31-996) And James uses this phrase: the law of liberty, which means you've been set free.

[\[01:06:38\]](#transcript-01-06-38-997) It's amazing.

[\[01:06:39\]](#transcript-01-06-39-998) The law becomes something that is beautiful and glorious because it's no longer barking condemnation upon you, because you're clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

[\[01:06:48\]](#transcript-01-06-48-999) You don't hate the law, you love the law.

[\[01:06:51\]](#transcript-01-06-51-1000) It's a complete switch.

[\[01:06:53\]](#transcript-01-06-53-1001) I'm going to say this, Justin, and it might be confusing, and you can correct me, but I think the actual most antinomian thing you can say is that the law is achievable because what you're doing is lowering the

[\[01:07:04\]](#transcript-01-07-04-1002) law.

[\[01:07:05\]](#transcript-01-07-05-1003) That's actually anti-law.

[\[01:07:07\]](#transcript-01-07-07-1004) You always want the law to be unachievable.

[\[01:07:09\]](#transcript-01-07-09-1005) You want it to be that thing that smacks you around and says, you are a 100% guilty failure, and you'll never be able to live up to the expectations and requirements of the law.

[\[01:07:21\]](#transcript-01-07-21-1006) That's what makes the gospel so amazing.

[\[01:07:25\]](#transcript-01-07-25-1007) The reform through history have referred to people as antinomian, antinomian, who denied the passive and active obedience of Christ in the place of the Christian.

[\[01:07:36\]](#transcript-01-07-36-1008) Because what they've said is, you have destroyed, you are against God's law because you are against the purpose for which God gave it.

[\[01:07:43\]](#transcript-01-07-43-1009) I mean, isn't that astonishing, John?

[\[01:07:45\]](#transcript-01-07-45-1010) We get shot at.

[\[01:07:46\]](#transcript-01-07-46-1011) Thomas Boston got shot at.

[\[01:07:48\]](#transcript-01-07-48-1012) People through history have gotten shot at as antinomian people who preach the gospel, right?

[\[01:07:54\]](#transcript-01-07-54-1013) When in reality, the antinomian is the person that's denying the passive and active obedience of Christ and fulfilling the penalty and requirement of the law.

[\[01:08:02\]](#transcript-01-08-02-1014) That's right.

[\[01:08:02\]](#transcript-01-08-02-1015) And you're an antinomian if you think you can do it, to your point.

[\[01:08:05\]](#transcript-01-08-05-1016) If you're an Arminian, semi-Pelagian, fill in the blank, like you think I can keep the law, you're the one who's denying the law.

[\[01:08:13\]](#transcript-01-08-13-1017) When in reality, the person who is upholding the law is the person preaching Christ as the fulfillment of the law in every way?

[\[01:08:21\]](#transcript-01-08-21-1018) And then is talking about sanctification, you know, the law as guide, but not as threat.

[\[01:08:27\]](#transcript-01-08-27-1019) The ultimate end and goal of the law and the gospel while on this earth.

[\[01:08:33\]](#transcript-01-08-33-1020) Because you have to understand, the supreme goal is our sanctification, right?

[\[01:08:38\]](#transcript-01-08-38-1021) Those whom he, I'm sorry, our glorification, those whom he justified, sanctified, and then glorified.

[\[01:08:42\]](#transcript-01-08-42-1022) So the ultimate goal is glorification to live with God and Jesus Christ forever.

[\[01:08:48\]](#transcript-01-08-48-1023) But in the meantime, there is a remaining work to be done, and that work is not only the advancement of the gospel, but he uses the means of sanctification as the way in which he advances the gospel.

[\[01:09:00\]](#transcript-01-09-00-1024) And this is where the confusion becomes: is that somehow sanctification becomes the

[\[01:09:06\]](#transcript-01-09-06-1025) The confirmation of one's salvation.

[\[01:09:08\]](#transcript-01-09-08-1026) Sanctification is not the confirmation of one's salvation.

[\[01:09:11\]](#transcript-01-09-11-1027) That's when things become threatening.

[\[01:09:14\]](#transcript-01-09-14-1028) Man, I can't tell you how many sermons are being posted inside the Facebook group that are sent to me.

[\[01:09:19\]](#transcript-01-09-19-1029) And you will hear someone who should be preaching joy and hope, and they sound threatening, and they sound that the tone is always one of a judgmental framework, as if, Justin, they were preaching the first use of the

[\[01:09:35\]](#transcript-01-09-35-1030) law, trying to condemn people.

[\[01:09:37\]](#transcript-01-09-37-1031) Yeah.

[\[01:09:37\]](#transcript-01-09-37-1032) Which I preach the first use of the law, and so do you every Sunday, right?

[\[01:09:41\]](#transcript-01-09-41-1033) We come, we confess our sins, we receive mercy from God.

[\[01:09:45\]](#transcript-01-09-45-1034) It is necessary, but there's a difference between preaching the first use of the law under condemnation and what we're going to talk about now, which is the third use of the law and sanctification, completely different.

[\[01:09:56\]](#transcript-01-09-56-1035) To the Christian, third use of the law, we preach the law as guide, but we don't ever do that in a way that's threatening, edgy, and harsh.

[\[01:10:04\]](#transcript-01-10-04-1036) We do that in the way that I think we're about to have this conversation.

[\[01:10:08\]](#transcript-01-10-08-1037) That look at look to Christ, consider what God has done for us in Jesus.

[\[01:10:13\]](#transcript-01-10-13-1038) We're free now.

[\[01:10:15\]](#transcript-01-10-15-1039) We believe the law of God is good.

[\[01:10:17\]](#transcript-01-10-17-1040) Now, let us encourage one another and stir one another up toward love and good works and conformity to the law by the Spirit.

[\[01:10:25\]](#transcript-01-10-25-1041) That's what we get to do in the church.

[\[01:10:27\]](#transcript-01-10-27-1042) So it's very much a, hey, guys, hey, friends, let's do this because it's so good.

[\[01:10:34\]](#transcript-01-10-34-1043) How good is the Lord to us?

[\[01:10:36\]](#transcript-01-10-36-1044) And He's told us this is good for our lives.

[\[01:10:38\]](#transcript-01-10-38-1045) Let's pursue that.

[\[01:10:39\]](#transcript-01-10-39-1046) And this is obviously honoring to the Lord and good for us.

[\[01:10:42\]](#transcript-01-10-42-1047) Let's do this.

[\[01:10:43\]](#transcript-01-10-43-1048) So good.

[\[01:10:44\]](#transcript-01-10-44-1049) And this thing over here is wicked, and it's going to destroy other people.

[\[01:10:48\]](#transcript-01-10-48-1050) So let's not go there.

[\[01:10:50\]](#transcript-01-10-50-1051) You know, that's how we should talk.

[\[01:10:52\]](#transcript-01-10-52-1052) And so we're motivated by Christ.

[\[01:10:54\]](#transcript-01-10-54-1053) We're motivated by love and joy and gratitude.

[\[01:10:57\]](#transcript-01-10-57-1054) We're not motivated by fear and dread.

[\[01:10:59\]](#transcript-01-10-59-1055) So, this is where sanctification historically and confessionally becomes very important.

[\[01:11:04\]](#transcript-01-11-04-1056) Sanctification is the, is needed, absolutely needed, for the unity of the body of Christ and the advancement of the gospel.

[\[01:11:11\]](#transcript-01-11-11-1057) So, the more that we trust in, and even clarifying what sanctification is, the Reformed has all have always had a monergistic, that means one working view of sanctification versus other forms of theology that seem to all summarize and

[\[01:11:26\]](#transcript-01-11-26-1058) being synergistic, dualistic, two working, you and God working together.

[\[01:11:31\]](#transcript-01-11-31-1059) No, we believe that God uses the Spirit by the use of means within the ordinary means of the church to draw us closer into a deeper faith.

[\[01:11:40\]](#transcript-01-11-40-1060) That's what sanctification is: it's a greater strengthening of our faith in Christ.

[\[01:11:46\]](#transcript-01-11-46-1061) And from faith comes obedience.

[\[01:11:48\]](#transcript-01-11-48-1062) I think it's very interesting that Paul does not say, obey the law as evidence of your salvation.

[\[01:11:56\]](#transcript-01-11-56-1063) He actually says things like this: walk by faith, right?

[\[01:12:00\]](#transcript-01-12-00-1064) If you've been regenerate, walk by faith, or walk by the spirit.

[\[01:12:04\]](#transcript-01-12-04-1065) Why would he say that?

[\[01:12:05\]](#transcript-01-12-05-1066) Because we are no longer underneath the condemnation of the first, the law, use of the law, we're not being judged by it.

[\[01:12:11\]](#transcript-01-12-11-1067) We've been set free.

[\[01:12:13\]](#transcript-01-12-13-1068) So we walk every day looking to that and using that as our motivation.

[\[01:12:20\]](#transcript-01-12-20-1069) I quoted this beforehand, to Justin

[\[01:12:23\]](#transcript-01-12-23-1070) in James chapters 2, he says this and starting off this whole section of rebuking them on this showing partiality.

[\[01:12:31\]](#transcript-01-12-31-1071) He says, if you really fulfill the royal law, that means the ultimate final law: love God, love neighbor.

[\[01:12:37\]](#transcript-01-12-37-1072) According to scripture, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

[\[01:12:39\]](#transcript-01-12-39-1073) You are doing well.

[\[01:12:42\]](#transcript-01-12-42-1074) I love this.

[\[01:12:43\]](#transcript-01-12-43-1075) It's the same thing that you and I quote all the time, 1 Peter 2, no, 2 Peter 1, when he says, You are ineffective and unfruitful, which means our obedience is an effective way of bringing encouragement and strengthening.

[\[01:13:01\]](#transcript-01-13-01-1076) But, Justin, in James chapter 2 and in 1 or 2 Peter 1, both of those are motivations of mercy and the gospel.

[\[01:13:13\]](#transcript-01-13-13-1077) James says it this way: he says, Let me just read it to you here, verse 12.

[\[01:13:18\]](#transcript-01-13-18-1078) So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty, meaning that there is no judgment, there is only mercy.

[\[01:13:25\]](#transcript-01-13-25-1079) You've been set free from it.

[\[01:13:26\]](#transcript-01-13-26-1080) So, your words and your actions are that of one who lives according to the mercy received.

[\[01:13:34\]](#transcript-01-13-34-1081) Same thing in 2 Peter 1:9.

[\[01:13:36\]](#transcript-01-13-36-1082) He says, If you are not increasing in showing these first, or sorry, the third use of the law, the love of God and love of neighbor.

[\[01:13:44\]](#transcript-01-13-44-1083) He says, You've forgotten that you have been cleansed from your former sins.

[\[01:13:48\]](#transcript-01-13-48-1084) James and Peter are using mercy.

[\[01:13:50\]](#transcript-01-13-50-1085) Let me use one more.

[\[01:13:52\]](#transcript-01-13-52-1086) This is Philippians.

[\[01:13:54\]](#transcript-01-13-54-1087) I'll turn this over after you, Justin.

[\[01:13:56\]](#transcript-01-13-56-1088) This is Philippians chapter 2.

[\[01:13:58\]](#transcript-01-13-58-1089) He says this in verse 3: Do nothing for selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves.

[\[01:14:05\]](#transcript-01-14-05-1090) Why?

[\[01:14:05\]](#transcript-01-14-05-1091) Well, otherwise, if you don't, you're going to be proved that you're not a Christian.

[\[01:14:08\]](#transcript-01-14-08-1092) He doesn't use a fear tactic here.

[\[01:14:10\]](#transcript-01-14-10-1093) No, he doesn't use dread, he uses delight.

[\[01:14:14\]](#transcript-01-14-14-1094) Let each one of you look not only to his own interests, but also the interests of others.

[\[01:14:17\]](#transcript-01-14-17-1095) Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus.

[\[01:14:20\]](#transcript-01-14-20-1096) Who was this?

[\[01:14:21\]](#transcript-01-14-21-1097) What's the motivation?

[\[01:14:22\]](#transcript-01-14-22-1098) Though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.

[\[01:14:27\]](#transcript-01-14-27-1099) And he goes down to talk about all the way to verse eight and being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

[\[01:14:36\]](#transcript-01-14-36-1100) He's saying, All of us have that same mind.

[\[01:14:38\]](#transcript-01-14-38-1101) We're considering each other more significant, we're loving each other, and why?

[\[01:14:44\]](#transcript-01-14-44-1102) Because our minds are unified in what?

[\[01:14:46\]](#transcript-01-14-46-1103) The mercy we received in the cross, the gospel.

[\[01:14:51\]](#transcript-01-14-51-1104) Romans 13:8 to 10.

[\[01:14:53\]](#transcript-01-14-53-1105) Owe no one anything except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

[\[01:14:59\]](#transcript-01-14-59-1106) So, this is the third use of the law as well.

[\[01:15:00\]](#transcript-01-15-00-1107) Right.

[\[01:15:01\]](#transcript-01-15-01-1108) Because Paul has been super clear in Romans already what Jesus has done.

[\[01:15:04\]](#transcript-01-15-04-1109) And now he's talking to people at a horizontal level: like, how are you to act with one another?

[\[01:15:08\]](#transcript-01-15-08-1110) So, love each other.

[\[01:15:09\]](#transcript-01-15-09-1111) And if you love each other, you fulfill the law.

[\[01:15:11\]](#transcript-01-15-11-1112) Verse 9.

[\[01:15:12\]](#transcript-01-15-12-1113) For the commandments, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet, and any other commandment are summed up in this word: you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

[\[01:15:23\]](#transcript-01-15-23-1114) Love does no wrong to a neighbor.

[\[01:15:25\]](#transcript-01-15-25-1115) Therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.

[\[01:15:28\]](#transcript-01-15-28-1116) That's really good.

[\[01:15:30\]](#transcript-01-15-30-1117) Yeah, like, so this is what we've strive to do, and how we strive to live with one another.

[\[01:15:33\]](#transcript-01-15-33-1118) And we're keeping the law, we're living in conformity to the law of God when we love our neighbor.

[\[01:15:39\]](#transcript-01-15-39-1119) And we could do a whole episode, and I don't want to

[\[01:15:42\]](#transcript-01-15-42-1120) because I know you and I agree on this.

[\[01:15:43\]](#transcript-01-15-43-1121) It's very interesting that people that often beat the drum of obedience have created all of these good works that aren't even in the scriptures that we need to do.

[\[01:15:51\]](#transcript-01-15-51-1122) You know, and then, and then this piece of love neighbor is just kind of assumed at best, if not neglected altogether.

[\[01:15:58\]](#transcript-01-15-58-1123) So, another podcast for another day, Romans 15, 5 and following, God is called a couple of things.

[\[01:16:06\]](#transcript-01-16-06-1124) He's called the God of endurance and the God of encouragement.

[\[01:16:10\]](#transcript-01-16-10-1125) What wonderful words those are!

[\[01:16:12\]](#transcript-01-16-12-1126) Because I don't know about you, but like when I'm feeling low and when I'm really struggling and feeling flat and gray or whatever, I have no hope within myself whatsoever that I'm going to be encouraged in my spirit.

[\[01:16:25\]](#transcript-01-16-25-1127) And I have no hope whatsoever that I'm going to endure because I'm like, I don't even feel like a Christian right now, you know?

[\[01:16:31\]](#transcript-01-16-31-1128) And so it's a tremendous comfort to the saints and always has been that picking up on what you said earlier, that God is the one who sanctifies his people.

[\[01:16:40\]](#transcript-01-16-40-1129) And he is the one who is faithful utterly, even when we are faithless.

[\[01:16:44\]](#transcript-01-16-44-1130) Like he will not deny himself, and he will accomplish the work that he has set out to do in us.

[\[01:16:49\]](#transcript-01-16-49-1131) And this does not, in the lives and hearts, and minds of the saints, does not produce apathy and a lack of concern for obedience.

[\[01:16:58\]](#transcript-01-16-58-1132) It comforts us in our pursuit of it.

[\[01:17:02\]](#transcript-01-17-02-1133) And so I'm comforted to know that God is utterly faithful, that He will complete the good work that He has begun in me.

[\[01:17:09\]](#transcript-01-17-09-1134) That 1 Thessalonians 5, that was Philippians 1:6, 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and 24, that may we be sanctified completely, and that the one who has called us is faithful, he will surely do it.

[\[01:17:24\]](#transcript-01-17-24-1135) Amen.

[\[01:17:25\]](#transcript-01-17-25-1136) God is the one who is faithful always, and God is the one who ultimately does the work of sanctification in and through us by His Spirit through the means that He's given.

[\[01:17:35\]](#transcript-01-17-35-1137) And that doesn't mean that we don't participate.

[\[01:17:37\]](#transcript-01-17-37-1138) Of course, we do.

[\[01:17:38\]](#transcript-01-17-38-1139) We apply means, we pray, we strive, we do all that stuff by virtue of the fact that we've been given life from God and by virtue of the fact that we've been united to Christ by faith.

[\[01:17:50\]](#transcript-01-17-50-1140) The motivation to keep trying as we fail, I know I fail as a father, as a husband, as a pastor, as a neighbor, all of the time.

[\[01:17:58\]](#transcript-01-17-58-1141) Every Sunday, I look forward to the moment where we confess our sins together to receive mercy together, right?

[\[01:18:03\]](#transcript-01-18-03-1142) James 5, confess your sins to one another.

[\[01:18:05\]](#transcript-01-18-05-1143) Tonight, men's Bible study.

[\[01:18:06\]](#transcript-01-18-06-1144) We're going to gather together, encourage one another, confess our sins to one another.

[\[01:18:10\]](#transcript-01-18-10-1145) It creates equality because there is no one to whom God shows favor upon based upon their own works.

[\[01:18:15\]](#transcript-01-18-15-1146) Our favor comes because of Christ.

[\[01:18:18\]](#transcript-01-18-18-1147) This is a great section of scripture that I put out on social media the other day.

[\[01:18:22\]](#transcript-01-18-22-1148) This is 1 John 4:17.

[\[01:18:23\]](#transcript-01-18-23-1149) He says, This by this love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence.

[\[01:18:29\]](#transcript-01-18-29-1150) Listen to that words.

[\[01:18:30\]](#transcript-01-18-30-1151) James says, confidence, right?

[\[01:18:31\]](#transcript-01-18-31-1152) Not fear, not dread, not wondering, not weary, confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is, so also are we in this world.

[\[01:18:41\]](#transcript-01-18-41-1153) There is no fear in love, but perfect love cast out fear, for fear has to do with punishment.

[\[01:18:49\]](#transcript-01-18-49-1154) And whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

[\[01:18:52\]](#transcript-01-18-52-1155) Then he says, This: We love because he first loved us.

[\[01:18:55\]](#transcript-01-18-55-1156) He's like, Don't be afraid.

[\[01:18:57\]](#transcript-01-18-57-1157) You're in love.

[\[01:18:58\]](#transcript-01-18-58-1158) You have the love of the Father.

[\[01:19:00\]](#transcript-01-19-00-1159) There's no judgment coming onto you.

[\[01:19:01\]](#transcript-01-19-01-1160) And then, then he says, Now go love somebody because you have no fear, you have no dread, you have no worry.

[\[01:19:08\]](#transcript-01-19-08-1161) Imperfectly, go love people.

[\[01:19:11\]](#transcript-01-19-11-1162) That is how sanctification should be observed.

[\[01:19:13\]](#transcript-01-19-13-1163) If you're struggling in your loving of neighbor, in obedience to Christ in those ways, you don't double down and try harder.

[\[01:19:22\]](#transcript-01-19-22-1164) You look longer and harder to what's been done for you in the law through so you start with the law and say, Yep, I failed.

[\[01:19:32\]](#transcript-01-19-32-1165) I failed you again, Father.

[\[01:19:33\]](#transcript-01-19-33-1166) I need mercy.

[\[01:19:34\]](#transcript-01-19-34-1167) What does he say?

[\[01:19:34\]](#transcript-01-19-34-1168) In the time of need, run and ask for mercy and grace, and it will 100% of the time be granted to you, we always are motivated by the mercy and grace of the gospel, never fear and dread.

[\[01:19:46\]](#transcript-01-19-46-1169) Pull the clutter off the law here.

[\[01:19:48\]](#transcript-01-19-48-1170) Let's let the law be what it's for, and let's let the gospel be what it's for.

[\[01:19:51\]](#transcript-01-19-51-1171) So, talk to us about what do you mean there is no law?

[\[01:19:55\]](#transcript-01-19-55-1172) Sorry, there's no power in the law.

[\[01:19:57\]](#transcript-01-19-57-1173) Go.

[\[01:19:57\]](#transcript-01-19-57-1174) Nobody ever accused Paul of being a legalist.

[\[01:20:00\]](#transcript-01-20-00-1175) He was always accused effectively of being against Moses, right?

[\[01:20:06\]](#transcript-01-20-06-1176) And Jesus, as well, I mean, accused of similar things.

[\[01:20:09\]](#transcript-01-20-09-1177) The title again: there is no power in the law, there's power in the blood, amen, and there is power in the gospel that is the power of God, the gospel is the message of Christ is the power of

[\[01:20:20\]](#transcript-01-20-20-1178) God unto salvation for all who believe.

[\[01:20:23\]](#transcript-01-20-23-1179) The law is good.

[\[01:20:24\]](#transcript-01-20-24-1180) So don't misunderstand us.

[\[01:20:26\]](#transcript-01-20-26-1181) The law is good.

[\[01:20:27\]](#transcript-01-20-27-1182) The law is holy.

[\[01:20:29\]](#transcript-01-20-29-1183) The law of God is wise.

[\[01:20:31\]](#transcript-01-20-31-1184) Amen.

[\[01:20:33\]](#transcript-01-20-33-1185) It is righteous.

[\[01:20:35\]](#transcript-01-20-35-1186) All of those things.

[\[01:20:36\]](#transcript-01-20-36-1187) And the law in and of itself does not have power to save anyone.

[\[01:20:41\]](#transcript-01-20-41-1188) And the law in and of itself does not have power to sanctify anyone.

[\[01:20:46\]](#transcript-01-20-46-1189) Both of those are important.

[\[01:20:48\]](#transcript-01-20-48-1190) I'll just go ahead and right now.

[\[01:20:49\]](#transcript-01-20-49-1191) When it comes to salvation, the law can not save, it can only kill.

[\[01:20:55\]](#transcript-01-20-55-1192) And when it comes to sanctification, the transformation of a Christian's life, the law cannot change or transform, it can only guide.

[\[01:21:03\]](#transcript-01-21-03-1193) That's right.

[\[01:21:04\]](#transcript-01-21-04-1194) Because there's a lot of preaching in churches across this land and across this world that are basically, just the preaching is law as though the law can do something, and as though the law alone is what we need.

[\[01:21:18\]](#transcript-01-21-18-1195) And this is the instinct of many people: whether it's the church needs to preach law so that people will live better, just unashamedly.

[\[01:21:27\]](#transcript-01-21-27-1196) We're just about better living.

[\[01:21:28\]](#transcript-01-21-28-1197) We're about making better people who are more morally upright.

[\[01:21:32\]](#transcript-01-21-32-1198) Or even if it's a church where the gospel is wonderful and the gospel is preached, but the instinct is something like, okay, yeah, we get the gospel, but now let's move on to the more important matters of the

[\[01:21:44\]](#transcript-01-21-44-1199) Christian life.

[\[01:21:46\]](#transcript-01-21-46-1200) Tell me what to do.

[\[01:21:47\]](#transcript-01-21-47-1201) What we are contending for is the preaching of law and gospel.

[\[01:21:50\]](#transcript-01-21-50-1202) And even though the law is holy, good, righteous, wise, we're saying it has no power to save, no power to sanctify.

[\[01:21:57\]](#transcript-01-21-57-1203) When the law is preached the right way with the gospel, when the law and the gospel are rightly divided, wonderful things happen.

[\[01:22:05\]](#transcript-01-22-05-1204) And the law and the gospel are not contradictory, but they are complementary in God's economy of salvation.

[\[01:22:11\]](#transcript-01-22-11-1205) And I hope that this podcast today, I know you do too.

[\[01:22:14\]](#transcript-01-22-14-1206) We'll make that even more clear.

[\[01:22:15\]](#transcript-01-22-15-1207) What powers us is not the instructions, it's that which we are being carried in.

[\[01:22:21\]](#transcript-01-22-21-1208) We're being carried by Christ, but as we are being moved by Christ, our flesh still wants to get in the way.

[\[01:22:28\]](#transcript-01-22-28-1209) And the law is what guides and protects us and keeps us from not going off the rails.

[\[01:22:33\]](#transcript-01-22-33-1210) And when you understand this illustration, we love the law.

[\[01:22:37\]](#transcript-01-22-37-1211) The law is extremely helpful, but it is not the power that actually does anything.

[\[01:22:42\]](#transcript-01-22-42-1212) That is always done by Christ.

[\[01:22:44\]](#transcript-01-22-44-1213) And so I think when you say that phrase that you used, it's really important because what we're actually trying to do is elevate the law and make its value really helpful, but not put our trust in the law

[\[01:22:57\]](#transcript-01-22-57-1214) as far as the means by which we are going to obey.

[\[01:23:01\]](#transcript-01-23-01-1215) Well, and to even piggyback on 1 Timothy 1:8, that the law is good provided it's used lawfully.

[\[01:23:06\]](#transcript-01-23-06-1216) When the law is used unlawfully, when you try to make the law do something that it cannot do, it actually becomes harmful and detrimental, which is why there's so much ink spilled in the New Testament on the fact

[\[01:23:17\]](#transcript-01-23-17-1217) that we cannot be justified by works of the law, right?

[\[01:23:21\]](#transcript-01-23-21-1218) Paul throws such sharp elbows on that, as do the other apostles, as does Jesus.

[\[01:23:25\]](#transcript-01-23-25-1219) I mean, even in the ways that he handles the law and the gospel, which we've talked about at a number of other points.

[\[01:23:30\]](#transcript-01-23-30-1220) Yeah, can I use one more verse there?

[\[01:23:31\]](#transcript-01-23-31-1221) Sure.

[\[01:23:32\]](#transcript-01-23-32-1222) Hebrews 7:19, for the law made nothing perfect.

[\[01:23:36\]](#transcript-01-23-36-1223) But on the other hand, a better hope is introduced through which we draw near to Christ.

[\[01:23:40\]](#transcript-01-23-40-1224) And what the whole book of Hebrews about: Christ.

[\[01:23:42\]](#transcript-01-23-42-1225) Yeah, Christ is better, he's greater.

[\[01:23:44\]](#transcript-01-23-44-1226) The first and greatest use of the law, so like a Romans 3, Romans 5, Romans 7, Galatians 3 reality, is to show us our sin and drive us to Christ.

[\[01:23:52\]](#transcript-01-23-52-1227) It's that kind of theological use, it's the mirror, you know, where we assess ourselves in light of the law and we're crushed in our sin and driven to Christ who kept it for us.

[\[01:24:02\]](#transcript-01-24-02-1228) As we would define the second use, that's the more broad civil use.

[\[01:24:06\]](#transcript-01-24-06-1229) It curbs human corruption.

[\[01:24:08\]](#transcript-01-24-08-1230) And then the third use is to guide our living in Christ.

[\[01:24:12\]](#transcript-01-24-12-1231) And so that's for the believer.

[\[01:24:14\]](#transcript-01-24-14-1232) It's not condemnatory, it's not threatening as it pertains to our standing, but it tells us what's good for us, what's good for our neighbor, what does righteousness look like?

[\[01:24:24\]](#transcript-01-24-24-1233) What are things that we should run from?

[\[01:24:26\]](#transcript-01-24-26-1234) Because it's going to ruin us.

[\[01:24:28\]](#transcript-01-24-28-1235) Those kinds of things.

[\[01:24:29\]](#transcript-01-24-29-1236) We're guided by the law, right?

[\[01:24:30\]](#transcript-01-24-30-1237) Because we don't have wisdom in and of ourselves.

[\[01:24:32\]](#transcript-01-24-32-1238) So, in the early verses of Romans 7, Paul makes it plain that we have to be, we used to belong to the law.

[\[01:24:39\]](#transcript-01-24-39-1239) And now, as believers, we actually have died to the law in Christ.

[\[01:24:43\]](#transcript-01-24-43-1240) So we've been united to Jesus in his death.

[\[01:24:47\]](#transcript-01-24-47-1241) His death counts as our death.

[\[01:24:49\]](#transcript-01-24-49-1242) And so the death that lawbreakers deserve, Jesus died it, and in him we did too.

[\[01:24:54\]](#transcript-01-24-54-1243) And so, because a death has occurred, we no longer belong to the law.

[\[01:24:59\]](#transcript-01-24-59-1244) And we needed to be set free from the law.

[\[01:25:01\]](#transcript-01-25-01-1245) We now belong to Jesus, and this is how we're actually able to serve God.

[\[01:25:05\]](#transcript-01-25-05-1246) And Paul says in like verses 4, 5, 6 of Romans 7 that before, when we were unregenerate, before we'd been united to Christ, the law only served to exacerbate our passions.

[\[01:25:19\]](#transcript-01-25-19-1247) So, this is important.

[\[01:25:21\]](#transcript-01-25-21-1248) So, even when we preach the law and try to apply it to the heart, like Jesus does in Matthew 5, and there are other places in Scripture, but that's maybe the most epic one where he says, you know,

[\[01:25:33\]](#transcript-01-25-33-1249) you've heard it said that you shouldn't murder, and then he makes it plain that if you've been angry, you're a lawbreaker and liable to the hell of fire.

[\[01:25:40\]](#transcript-01-25-40-1250) And you've heard it said, don't commit adultery.

[\[01:25:43\]](#transcript-01-25-43-1251) But I'm telling you, if you've looked at someone with lustful intent, you're a lawbreaker, that kind of thing.

[\[01:25:47\]](#transcript-01-25-47-1252) Even preaching the law that way, apart from the power of the Holy Spirit, for us as fallen people.

[\[01:25:55\]](#transcript-01-25-55-1253) All that's going to do is exacerbate our passions.

[\[01:25:57\]](#transcript-01-25-57-1254) When things are forbidden, we want them all the more as fallen people.

[\[01:26:00\]](#transcript-01-26-00-1255) There's something really epically wrong with us because this is how we all operate.

[\[01:26:05\]](#transcript-01-26-05-1256) But then Paul pivots, beginning in Romans 7, 7, and he makes it really clear how the Lord used the law for him.

[\[01:26:13\]](#transcript-01-26-13-1257) And when the law is accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit, Paul sees that he's ruined and all of his legal hopes.

[\[01:26:21\]](#transcript-01-26-21-1258) Remember, this is a man.

[\[01:26:23\]](#transcript-01-26-23-1259) He writes in Philippians 3, right?

[\[01:26:24\]](#transcript-01-26-24-1260) That he, righteousness according to the law, blameless, right?

[\[01:26:27\]](#transcript-01-26-27-1261) He had all of this confidence in the life that he had lived and in the disciplines that he had, and all that.

[\[01:26:33\]](#transcript-01-26-33-1262) But the law, when it's accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit, showed him that all of his legal hopes were dashed, and it showed him that he was ruined, and it showed him through the commandment, he says,

[\[01:26:46\]](#transcript-01-26-46-1263) sin becomes sinful beyond measure.

[\[01:26:48\]](#transcript-01-26-48-1264) Right?

[\[01:26:49\]](#transcript-01-26-49-1265) So sin is shown to be sin through the right preaching of the law when the Holy Spirit accompanies it and gives us eyes to see.

[\[01:26:55\]](#transcript-01-26-55-1266) This

[\[01:26:57\]](#transcript-01-26-57-1267) tendency towards trusting in the flesh or the law.

[\[01:27:03\]](#transcript-01-27-03-1268) When we say trust in the flesh, what we mean is when Paul says, I have the desire to do what is right, but not the capacities to carry it out.

[\[01:27:11\]](#transcript-01-27-11-1269) That's what he's fighting for constantly.

[\[01:27:15\]](#transcript-01-27-15-1270) He is sympathetic to that desire of going, I can do this.

[\[01:27:18\]](#transcript-01-27-18-1271) I can do this.

[\[01:27:19\]](#transcript-01-27-19-1272) I know I can do this.

[\[01:27:20\]](#transcript-01-27-20-1273) And then the scripture goes in and goes, but don't try it because you will fail.

[\[01:27:25\]](#transcript-01-27-25-1274) So, probably the most clear place that he puts this is in Galatians chapter 3.

[\[01:27:31\]](#transcript-01-27-31-1275) And he says, Oh, foolish Galatians who bewitched you.

[\[01:27:35\]](#transcript-01-27-35-1276) So, that's very strong language.

[\[01:27:37\]](#transcript-01-27-37-1277) He's saying, this is like demonic.

[\[01:27:39\]](#transcript-01-27-39-1278) You know that, right?

[\[01:27:40\]](#transcript-01-27-40-1279) Like, this is not of the spiritual realm of Christ.

[\[01:27:42\]](#transcript-01-27-42-1280) This is of the spiritual realm of the evil.

[\[01:27:45\]](#transcript-01-27-45-1281) He says, it was before your very eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.

[\[01:27:49\]](#transcript-01-27-49-1282) Let me ask you only this.

[\[01:27:50\]](#transcript-01-27-50-1283) Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

[\[01:27:54\]](#transcript-01-27-54-1284) Now, this is important.

[\[01:27:55\]](#transcript-01-27-55-1285) How did you start?

[\[01:27:57\]](#transcript-01-27-57-1286) How did you come into the family of God?

[\[01:27:59\]](#transcript-01-27-59-1287) I mean, Ephesians 2, just slap you upside the head, not by works, lest any man should boast, right?

[\[01:28:04\]](#transcript-01-28-04-1288) Not by obedience.

[\[01:28:05\]](#transcript-01-28-05-1289) So, are you so foolish having begun by the spirit?

[\[01:28:08\]](#transcript-01-28-08-1290) Are you now being perfected by the flesh?

[\[01:28:11\]](#transcript-01-28-11-1291) Do you suffer so many things that is in vain, right?

[\[01:28:15\]](#transcript-01-28-15-1292) Verse 5: Does he who supply the spirit to you and works miracles among you?

[\[01:28:20\]](#transcript-01-28-20-1293) I love that he talks about the supernatural work that's happening now.

[\[01:28:25\]](#transcript-01-28-25-1294) Do so by works.

[\[01:28:26\]](#transcript-01-28-26-1295) Now, this, I love this, by works of the law or by hearing with faith.

[\[01:28:32\]](#transcript-01-28-32-1296) Paul is not downplaying the law, he's not belittling it, he's not casting it aside.

[\[01:28:37\]](#transcript-01-28-37-1297) He's saying, You are not using it as it was designed, right?

[\[01:28:41\]](#transcript-01-28-41-1298) You are not living according to its purpose.

[\[01:28:44\]](#transcript-01-28-44-1299) The way in which we continue in our progression and faith, the way in which we grow into the likeness of Christ is by faith.

[\[01:28:53\]](#transcript-01-28-53-1300) And Justin, he points it out clearly: it's faith in the work of Christ.

[\[01:28:57\]](#transcript-01-28-57-1301) Amen.

[\[01:28:58\]](#transcript-01-28-58-1302) I love this when Paul says we walk by faith, right?

[\[01:29:03\]](#transcript-01-29-03-1303) And that's how we don't fulfill the lust of the flesh.

[\[01:29:05\]](#transcript-01-29-05-1304) What we hear in modern-day preaching is the law, law, law.

[\[01:29:09\]](#transcript-01-29-09-1305) If you don't want to obey the flesh, you want to stop lusting and stop all your problems, it's law, law, law.

[\[01:29:15\]](#transcript-01-29-15-1306) And Paul goes, no, it's not.

[\[01:29:18\]](#transcript-01-29-18-1307) That's demonic.

[\[01:29:19\]](#transcript-01-29-19-1308) It's actually Christ, Christ, Christ.

[\[01:29:21\]](#transcript-01-29-21-1309) Because walking by faith is to receive the righteousness of Christ.

[\[01:29:25\]](#transcript-01-29-25-1310) To walk by the Spirit is to receive the righteousness of Christ.

[\[01:29:29\]](#transcript-01-29-29-1311) And so that's what we need to continue to be exhorted in.

[\[01:29:32\]](#transcript-01-29-32-1312) Keep trusting him.

[\[01:29:33\]](#transcript-01-29-33-1313) Keep looking to him.

[\[01:29:34\]](#transcript-01-29-34-1314) And this is part of what, when we say pull the clutter off the gospel, Justin and I want to reclaim the power of the gospel.

[\[01:29:40\]](#transcript-01-29-40-1315) And when I mean power, I mean the supernatural work of the Spirit.

[\[01:29:44\]](#transcript-01-29-44-1316) When Jesus says that it's like the wind blowing and he does a work, we believe that there's an actual supernatural work happening here.

[\[01:29:52\]](#transcript-01-29-52-1317) He says, 1 Peter 1:3, His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, Justin, that should just wrap it up and sum it up right there.

[\[01:30:02\]](#transcript-01-30-02-1318) Now he goes into the third use of the law later on.

[\[01:30:05\]](#transcript-01-30-05-1319) Now, if this is true about you, here's how you should obey.

[\[01:30:08\]](#transcript-01-30-08-1320) Yeah, but he says the power to do so is divine.

[\[01:30:12\]](#transcript-01-30-12-1321) It's not flesh.

[\[01:30:13\]](#transcript-01-30-13-1322) It's divine.

[\[01:30:14\]](#transcript-01-30-14-1323) I mean, that should just wrap up this argument.

[\[01:30:16\]](#transcript-01-30-16-1324) Case closed, right?

[\[01:30:18\]](#transcript-01-30-18-1325) But how many writers of the New Testament?

[\[01:30:20\]](#transcript-01-30-20-1326) This is like, was our fourth book with coded so far?

[\[01:30:23\]](#transcript-01-30-23-1327) Yeah.

[\[01:30:23\]](#transcript-01-30-23-1328) They're all having to clarify what we keep falling into.

[\[01:30:26\]](#transcript-01-30-26-1329) The law can only guide, can't transform.

[\[01:30:28\]](#transcript-01-30-28-1330) What transforms?

[\[01:30:29\]](#transcript-01-30-29-1331) It is literally, it is the power of God at work in us, right?

[\[01:30:34\]](#transcript-01-30-34-1332) Through our union, our vital union with Jesus Christ.

[\[01:30:37\]](#transcript-01-30-37-1333) This is the Romans 6 argument in other places, John 15.

[\[01:30:41\]](#transcript-01-30-41-1334) I mean, so both immediately pop into my mind.

[\[01:30:44\]](#transcript-01-30-44-1335) In Romans 6, the argument's very clear: like, we shouldn't continue in sin because we've been united to Christ, we've been baptized into Him, right?

[\[01:30:52\]](#transcript-01-30-52-1336) We're united with Him in His death.

[\[01:30:53\]](#transcript-01-30-53-1337) We're united to Him in resurrection power.

[\[01:30:55\]](#transcript-01-30-55-1338) What's that mean?

[\[01:30:57\]](#transcript-01-30-57-1339) It's the Ephesians 1, end of Ephesians 1 argument, right?

[\[01:31:00\]](#transcript-01-31-00-1340) That the very power of God that raised Jesus from the dead is the power that's at work in believers, right?

[\[01:31:06\]](#transcript-01-31-06-1341) Unto sanctification.

[\[01:31:07\]](#transcript-01-31-07-1342) And we've been justified from sin's guilt, and we've been set free from its tyranny.

[\[01:31:13\]](#transcript-01-31-13-1343) And we're not under the law anymore, we're under grace, but we've become obedient from the heart.

[\[01:31:18\]](#transcript-01-31-18-1344) Like, this is the argument.

[\[01:31:20\]](#transcript-01-31-20-1345) And it's all through our vital union with Christ.

[\[01:31:23\]](#transcript-01-31-23-1346) John 15, right?

[\[01:31:25\]](#transcript-01-31-25-1347) Apart from me, you can do nothing, Jesus says.

[\[01:31:27\]](#transcript-01-31-27-1348) If you're united to me, I'm the living vine.

[\[01:31:30\]](#transcript-01-31-30-1349) If you are united to me, you will bear fruit.

[\[01:31:34\]](#transcript-01-31-34-1350) Hold Jesus out and preach Jesus out.

[\[01:31:36\]](#transcript-01-31-36-1351) Preach the love and the mercy and the grace and the power of Christ to the believer.

[\[01:31:41\]](#transcript-01-31-41-1352) Guide the believer with the law that is good, and the Lord will use that to transform and to sanctify.

[\[01:31:49\]](#transcript-01-31-49-1353) To increase our faith, to help our faith grow into maturity, it is the heralding of Christ.

[\[01:31:55\]](#transcript-01-31-55-1354) It's the continuing reminder of the work of what Christ has done.

[\[01:31:59\]](#transcript-01-31-59-1355) That doesn't mean to the exclusion of the law.

[\[01:32:02\]](#transcript-01-32-02-1356) No.

[\[01:32:02\]](#transcript-01-32-02-1357) What he means is that faith is what we walk by, so we need that to be strengthened constantly so that we can obey the law.

[\[01:32:09\]](#transcript-01-32-09-1358) The law is a good diet.

[\[01:32:12\]](#transcript-01-32-12-1359) It is a faithful preacher of the Bible will preach the law, right?

[\[01:32:17\]](#transcript-01-32-17-1360) But he must empower his listener through the means of Christ.

[\[01:32:22\]](#transcript-01-32-22-1361) And that's what we're trying to get into order here.

[\[01:32:24\]](#transcript-01-32-24-1362) The law needs to have its proper place, it's instruction, it's not power.

[\[01:32:28\]](#transcript-01-32-28-1363) Where's power?

[\[01:32:29\]](#transcript-01-32-29-1364) Power is in Christ.

[\[01:32:30\]](#transcript-01-32-30-1365) So we feed on Christ and then we receive the, like, I love how it's the sandwich effect, Justin.

[\[01:32:36\]](#transcript-01-32-36-1366) I don't know if you can point out a passage in scripture that even James is that will use the sandwich effect of Christ for you, now obey, remember Christ.

[\[01:32:46\]](#transcript-01-32-46-1367) Yeah, it's they always use that sandwich effect, it's incredible.

---

### Reading the Bible Through Law/Gospel Lenses

*Published: October 23, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/reading-the-bible-through-law-gospel-lenses*
*Tags: Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction*

Is there a right and wrong way to read your Bible? We're going to argue that yes, there is. There’s a dangerous way where passages are misapplied—for example, reading the law as gospel or the gospel as law, which leads to confusion and distorts the message. In today's podcast, we discuss how to read your Bible with a law-gospel distinction. We'll cover how to think about different parts of the Bible, like narratives, Psalms, Proverbs, prophecy, and the New Testament gospels, ensuring you approach them with the right perspective to avoid muddying the gospel.

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https://youtu.be/DVsHikYWXN4

---

### Gospel Shrewdness and Discernment Ministries

*Published: October 16, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/gospel-shrewdness-and-discernment-ministries*
*Tags: Discernment Ministries*

Today's conversation is one that Jon and Justin wanted to have as they look at the broader Christian landscape. Even within their own churches, it seems that many Christians operate out of fear and are overly concerned with certain theological directions. This fear may prevent us from partnering with sincere, well-meaning Christians to promote the gospel and could stunt our own growth by keeping us from learning from those outside our tradition, who have valuable insights on many aspects of the Christian life. This episode is two pastors processing things in real time, and we hope it will be helpful, freeing, and comforting for you.

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---

### How Humility Helps Us

*Published: October 9, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-humility-helps-us*
*Tags: humility*

When you hear the word "humility," what comes to mind? How do you feel when you recall how a pastor, perhaps in your past, spoke to you about the need to be humble? How did that affect you? In today's episode, Jon and Justin have a conversation about humility—specifically, humbling ourselves before and under the mighty hand of God. The purpose of humility may not be what you're expecting. It leads to much good, because God is mighty to save and deliver us. He is our faithful God who loves us and desires that we come to Him with all our anxieties and burdens. All of this is tied to being humble before Him. We hope this episode comforts and encourages you in Christ.

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https://youtu.be/uYjcRkZZc8s

---

### Assurance of Salvation? (w/ Room for Nuance)

*Published: October 2, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/assurance-of-salvation-w-room-for-nuance*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: Assurance, assurance of salvation*

Jon and Justin were recently invited onto the Room for Nuance podcast with Sean DeMars to discuss various topics surrounding assurance of salvation, law-gospel distinction, and the relationship between faith and works. We hope you find this conversation informative and encouraging!

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https://youtu.be/2HWDXb5p0gA 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:03\]](#transcript-00-00-03-1) All right, we are back with not just another episode of the Room for Nuance podcast, but also an episode of the Theocast podcast.

[\[00:00:12\]](#transcript-00-00-12-2) I am Sean DeMars, and you guys are Justin Perdue.

[\[00:00:16\]](#transcript-00-00-16-3) Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:00:18\]](#transcript-00-00-18-4) Yeah, so we always like to get started with prayer, if that's okay with you guys.

[\[00:00:21\]](#transcript-00-00-21-5) All right, and I'll have the guests open us whichever rock, paper, scissors to see who opens us up in prayer.

[\[00:00:27\]](#transcript-00-00-27-6) Yeah, just one.

[\[00:00:28\]](#transcript-00-00-28-7) One for the win.

[\[00:00:28\]](#transcript-00-00-28-8) Let's see who's got it.

[\[00:00:30\]](#transcript-00-00-30-9) Rock, paper, scissors, rock, paper, scissors, shoot.

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-10) All right.

[\[00:00:35\]](#transcript-00-00-35-11) You're up, man.

[\[00:00:36\]](#transcript-00-00-36-12) How'd you figure it out?

[\[00:00:37\]](#transcript-00-00-37-13) I did paper because I won.

[\[00:00:39\]](#transcript-00-00-39-14) So I get the prayer.

[\[00:00:40\]](#transcript-00-00-40-15) That's how we're doing it.

[\[00:00:42\]](#transcript-00-00-42-16) I see how the game works.

[\[00:00:43\]](#transcript-00-00-43-17) Let's pray.

[\[00:00:43\]](#transcript-00-00-43-18) Let's do it.

[\[00:00:44\]](#transcript-00-00-44-19) Our Father in heaven, we're grateful that you have shown mercy to sinners like us.

[\[00:00:49\]](#transcript-00-00-49-20) We're grateful to know that you are always with us.

[\[00:00:51\]](#transcript-00-00-51-21) We pray that by your spirit you would guide us in this conversation.

[\[00:00:54\]](#transcript-00-00-54-22) We pray that the things that we talk about would encourage the saints and that they would honor you.

[\[00:00:59\]](#transcript-00-00-59-23) And we pray that in Christ's name.

[\[00:01:00\]](#transcript-00-01-00-24) Amen.

[\[00:01:01\]](#transcript-00-01-01-25) Amen.

[\[00:01:02\]](#transcript-00-01-02-26) Now, this is going to be a joint episode.

[\[00:01:05\]](#transcript-00-01-05-27) So, like a mashup, if you will.

[\[00:01:07\]](#transcript-00-01-07-28) A mashup, if you will, but who's who's leading this thing?

[\[00:01:09\]](#transcript-00-01-09-29) I feel like, Justin, you're a take-charge kind of guy.

[\[00:01:12\]](#transcript-00-01-12-30) Well, Sean, I mean, you were the one who initiated this.

[\[00:01:14\]](#transcript-00-01-14-31) That's true.

[\[00:01:16\]](#transcript-00-01-16-32) I got the ball rolling.

[\[00:01:17\]](#transcript-00-01-17-33) You keep it rolling.

[\[00:01:17\]](#transcript-00-01-17-34) Yeah, well, I mean, we are in our office, but your equipment, so it's kind of a tie.

[\[00:01:21\]](#transcript-00-01-21-35) Yeah, okay, yeah.

[\[00:01:22\]](#transcript-00-01-22-36) Hey, I mean, we can play rock, paper, scissors, man.

[\[00:01:26\]](#transcript-00-01-26-37) All right, well, let's start this.

[\[00:01:27\]](#transcript-00-01-27-38) Tell us about Theocast.

[\[00:01:28\]](#transcript-00-01-28-39) Tell me what your name means.

[\[00:01:30\]](#transcript-00-01-30-40) I think I can guess.

[\[00:01:31\]](#transcript-00-01-31-41) And then tell me kind of what the heartbeat of your ministry is.

[\[00:01:34\]](#transcript-00-01-34-42) Yeah, John, you should go first on this.

[\[00:01:36\]](#transcript-00-01-36-43) Yeah, well, we were uh a real short story.

[\[00:01:40\]](#transcript-00-01-40-44) We're we were trying to figure out just a name for a podcast, and they were all really bad.

[\[00:01:45\]](#transcript-00-01-45-45) And one night I was sitting, I'm like, listen, we talk about theology, it's a podcast.

[\[00:01:50\]](#transcript-00-01-50-46) Why don't we just keep it simple and literally just call it Theocast?

[\[00:01:53\]](#transcript-00-01-53-47) And no one else had had the name.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-48) And that's what it came from.

[\[00:01:55\]](#transcript-00-01-55-49) That in itself is shocking.

[\[00:01:57\]](#transcript-00-01-57-50) Yeah.

[\[00:01:57\]](#transcript-00-01-57-51) I thought I was thinking like theos, God cast some casting a vision out into it.

[\[00:02:03\]](#transcript-00-02-03-52) Literally was, we're a theology podcast.

[\[00:02:05\]](#transcript-00-02-05-53) We talk about all kinds of theology, and it's a podcast.

[\[00:02:08\]](#transcript-00-02-08-54) So we just, it was literally that simple, and no one had had it.

[\[00:02:10\]](#transcript-00-02-10-55) So we're like, let's just do it.

[\[00:02:12\]](#transcript-00-02-12-56) And but the podcast really has always been about helping people kind of pull back the pietistic, legalistic, like self-help view of the gospel and putting people back into the Reformation of the Sola Fide, the confessions, and you know,

[\[00:02:31\]](#transcript-00-02-31-57) the tagline of our podcast is helping worry pilgrims find rest in Christ.

[\[00:02:35\]](#transcript-00-02-35-58) Say that one more time.

[\[00:02:35\]](#transcript-00-02-35-59) Helping worry pilgrims find rest in Christ.

[\[00:02:37\]](#transcript-00-02-37-60) I kind of mumbled there.

[\[00:02:39\]](#transcript-00-02-39-61) So, sorry, sorry, one more time.

[\[00:02:41\]](#transcript-00-02-41-62) Are you saying worried or wearied?

[\[00:02:42\]](#transcript-00-02-42-63) Wearied, weary, yeah, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

[\[00:02:48\]](#transcript-00-02-48-64) There you go.

[\[00:02:49\]](#transcript-00-02-49-65) See, maybe if I move the microphone down, you'll be able to see my lips.

[\[00:02:54\]](#transcript-00-02-54-66) That so that's been the heartbeat of it.

[\[00:02:56\]](#transcript-00-02-56-67) We'll take on um theological problems once in a while if we feel like it's causing some confusion and rest, but we're really trying to help people find the sufficiency in Christ in all of life, and then from there

[\[00:03:09\]](#transcript-00-03-09-68) they learn how to be a part of the kingdom.

[\[00:03:13\]](#transcript-00-03-13-69) And so instead of most Christianity, feels like you're obeying God so that hopefully you'll make it into the kingdom.

[\[00:03:20\]](#transcript-00-03-20-70) And we think that's reversed.

[\[00:03:21\]](#transcript-00-03-21-71) So that's what the heartbeat of the podcast is.

[\[00:03:24\]](#transcript-00-03-24-72) Yeah, to add to that and maybe restate some of what you said in my own ways.

[\[00:03:30\]](#transcript-00-03-30-73) Yeah, we're trying to help people understand the utter sufficiency of Christ as their Savior and what it means to be united to Jesus, not just for justification, but for all of the Christian life and for what that means

[\[00:03:42\]](#transcript-00-03-42-74) for their eternity.

[\[00:03:43\]](#transcript-00-03-43-75) And I agree with John.

[\[00:03:45\]](#transcript-00-03-45-76) A lot of times, the way that even amongst serious-minded, well-intentioned brothers and sisters in the Lord, even like Calvinistic, brothers and sisters in the Lord, if I can say that word.

[\[00:03:56\]](#transcript-00-03-56-77) There is this, there's a sense in which, yeah, you are kind of chasing after something to prove your legitimacy.

[\[00:04:04\]](#transcript-00-04-04-78) You know, it's like, yes, it's all of grace, it's by faith alone in Christ alone.

[\[00:04:08\]](#transcript-00-04-08-79) But now there's a sense in which if you're not careful, you might just mess this up and prove yourself to be an unbeliever.

[\[00:04:16\]](#transcript-00-04-16-80) Rather, do you think that that's a non-valid category?

[\[00:04:19\]](#transcript-00-04-19-81) No, I'm not saying that there aren't false professions.

[\[00:04:23\]](#transcript-00-04-23-82) Of course, there are.

[\[00:04:25\]](#transcript-00-04-25-83) But I think the emphasis sometimes in, again, I think because of, and we can talk about all of this, yeah, because of the, the bad fruit of revivalism, amongst other things, legitimate responses to easy believism and legitimate antinomian

[\[00:04:43\]](#transcript-00-04-43-84) theology.

[\[00:04:45\]](#transcript-00-04-45-85) There sometimes is a posture, again, amongst well-intentioned pastors, where it's almost like we need to smoke out the fakers.

[\[00:04:54\]](#transcript-00-04-54-86) And that tone, I mean, we're just coming in hot here.

[\[00:04:56\]](#transcript-00-04-56-87) I mean, that tone informs a lot.

[\[00:04:59\]](#transcript-00-04-59-88) I mean, even when it comes to preaching and the way that we pastor people, rather than the emphasis being on Christ for us and union with Jesus, kind of like Paul's response, you know, in Romans 6: Where the

[\[00:05:12\]](#transcript-00-05-12-89) age-old objection, if where sin abounded, grace abounded all the more.

[\[00:05:18\]](#transcript-00-05-18-90) Should we just sin?

[\[00:05:20\]](#transcript-00-05-20-91) That's a legit question that the gospel raises, in one sense.

[\[00:05:24\]](#transcript-00-05-24-92) And his response is interesting because he doesn't say, by no means, here is what the law says, even.

[\[00:05:32\]](#transcript-00-05-32-93) It's not how he starts.

[\[00:05:33\]](#transcript-00-05-33-94) He doesn't say, by no means, if you are a serious Christian and not a fake.

[\[00:05:38\]](#transcript-00-05-38-95) Here's how you'll live.

[\[00:05:39\]](#transcript-00-05-39-96) The way he begins to ground the saints and help them think about their obedience is: by no means, because we have been united to the Savior and we've been baptized into Jesus.

[\[00:05:50\]](#transcript-00-05-50-97) We've been set free from sin's guilt, and now we are free from its dominion.

[\[00:05:55\]](#transcript-00-05-55-98) Right?

[\[00:05:55\]](#transcript-00-05-55-99) And so that's effectively what we're trying to do: put the emphasis in that place and to help people see that the Christian life is not one where we're chasing after status.

[\[00:06:06\]](#transcript-00-06-06-100) We've been given justification.

[\[00:06:08\]](#transcript-00-06-08-101) We're not chasing after an identity.

[\[00:06:11\]](#transcript-00-06-11-102) We've been given one in that we've been adopted as children of the Father, and we're now in Christ, and we live from that, not for it.

[\[00:06:18\]](#transcript-00-06-18-103) And so that's really all we've been meaning to do for a while and help people know that you're not a Christian because of what you do, you're a Christian because of what you believe.

[\[00:06:28\]](#transcript-00-06-28-104) And now that you've been united to Christ, that is who you are.

[\[00:06:32\]](#transcript-00-06-32-105) And we, even in the pages of the New Testament, would see that's how the apostles often exhort the saints toward holiness.

[\[00:06:38\]](#transcript-00-06-38-106) Live like who you are now.

[\[00:06:39\]](#transcript-00-06-39-107) We can talk about all this more, but well, even in the illustration, when Jesus says with the wheat and the tares, it's like you start pulling out the tares, you're going to pull the wheat with it.

[\[00:06:47\]](#transcript-00-06-47-108) So we leave that alone, which is different from if you have a false teacher in your congregation, they have just exposed themselves to the point where they have to be removed, right?

[\[00:06:56\]](#transcript-00-06-56-109) But it seems like a lot of preaching when we're dealing with our congregation, there's always this, I guess, this fear that we have a false convert, a false convert convert congregation professors, false conversions.

[\[00:07:11\]](#transcript-00-07-11-110) And

[\[00:07:13\]](#transcript-00-07-13-111) that tenor becomes like a, it's been a, in our experience, in the history that I come from, from like a fundamentalist Calvinistic background, that seems to kind of be the tenor of the preaching.

[\[00:07:24\]](#transcript-00-07-24-112) We're always trying to find the person who's faking and make sure that we kind of bring them to repentance.

[\[00:07:29\]](#transcript-00-07-29-113) So the preaching becomes very exacting and very self-examination.

[\[00:07:34\]](#transcript-00-07-34-114) And we're not giving people hope that it's beyond their own capacity, is really their own obedience.

[\[00:07:40\]](#transcript-00-07-40-115) And to be clear, I mean, John and I are both pastor churches where we practice church discipline.

[\[00:07:44\]](#transcript-00-07-44-116) You know, and so nothing that we're saying right now is in any way calling any of that into question or evaluating our lives.

[\[00:07:54\]](#transcript-00-07-54-117) We're all about healthy examination and healthy introspection, even.

[\[00:07:59\]](#transcript-00-07-59-118) What we're pushing back against is the hyper introspection, or a constant kind of examination and measuring of oneself that becomes actually very unhealthy and counterproductive because the emphasis now becomes, and the focus becomes me somehow.

[\[00:08:15\]](#transcript-00-08-15-119) Like rather than being pointed to Christ always and then seeing my own Christian life through the lens of Jesus as my representative, Jesus as my substitute, Jesus as the one to whom I've been united, and then I see

[\[00:08:30\]](#transcript-00-08-30-120) me through him.

[\[00:08:32\]](#transcript-00-08-32-121) I kind of brought into the foreground and my life is the focus.

[\[00:08:36\]](#transcript-00-08-36-122) And

[\[00:08:37\]](#transcript-00-08-37-123) we feel like that is an inversion of the best ways to talk about Christian living.

[\[00:08:44\]](#transcript-00-08-44-124) So, you look like you have a thousand questions.

[\[00:08:47\]](#transcript-00-08-47-125) You get to ask them.

[\[00:08:47\]](#transcript-00-08-47-126) Yeah.

[\[00:08:48\]](#transcript-00-08-48-127) You got to tell us about your podcast.

[\[00:08:49\]](#transcript-00-08-49-128) Ooh, okay.

[\[00:08:50\]](#transcript-00-08-50-129) Or do you do?

[\[00:08:51\]](#transcript-00-08-51-130) We want to keep rolling down this train, or do you want to?

[\[00:08:54\]](#transcript-00-08-54-131) I'll leave that up to you.

[\[00:08:55\]](#transcript-00-08-55-132) Yeah, let's finish your train.

[\[00:08:56\]](#transcript-00-08-56-133) And then, if there's any time left, we'll talk about me.

[\[00:09:00\]](#transcript-00-09-00-134) See, the worst for last.

[\[00:09:02\]](#transcript-00-09-02-135) Leave that.

[\[00:09:02\]](#transcript-00-09-02-136) Leave us.

[\[00:09:03\]](#transcript-00-09-03-137) You know what?

[\[00:09:04\]](#transcript-00-09-04-138) You got the lead now.

[\[00:09:04\]](#transcript-00-09-04-139) Yeah.

[\[00:09:05\]](#transcript-00-09-05-140) Leave us.

[\[00:09:06\]](#transcript-00-09-06-141) Okay.

[\[00:09:07\]](#transcript-00-09-07-142) So, what I want to try to do is imagine people who might be listening or watching who will have questions or perhaps disagreements with the way you've stated things.

[\[00:09:16\]](#transcript-00-09-16-143) Because very often, what will happen is people will view, and you use this word a couple times than what you were saying, brother.

[\[00:09:23\]](#transcript-00-09-23-144) They'll view your emphasis from their perspective, not necessarily understanding your perspective or your context.

[\[00:09:30\]](#transcript-00-09-30-145) And they'll evaluate.

[\[00:09:31\]](#transcript-00-09-31-146) I've used this example multiple times: people pushing back against Platt's radical book.

[\[00:09:37\]](#transcript-00-09-37-147) It's some of the critique very valid.

[\[00:09:39\]](#transcript-00-09-39-148) Also, not understanding that David Platt was pastoring one of the wealthiest churches in America, where people were not in any way trying to sacrifice radically.

[\[00:09:47\]](#transcript-00-09-47-149) And it was in that context that I think the book made a little more sense.

[\[00:09:50\]](#transcript-00-09-50-150) Now it did get published to the whole wide world.

[\[00:09:52\]](#transcript-00-09-52-151) So that's another question entirely.

[\[00:09:54\]](#transcript-00-09-54-152) But sure.

[\[00:09:55\]](#transcript-00-09-55-153) Um, so let me think about my context in light of what you just said.

[\[00:09:59\]](#transcript-00-09-59-154) Okay, my context is: I'm a pastor of a church in one of the most church cities in the Bible Belt, okay?

[\[00:10:05\]](#transcript-00-10-05-155) A city of 55,000 people, uh, all of the bad juju you just mentioned, revival and revivalism, uh, false converts, go down the water slide and get baptized this Sunday, yeah, 100%, 100, right, all that stuff.

[\[00:10:19\]](#transcript-00-10-19-156) Uh, Contextually, there's a very serious pastoral need to let people know that the way that they've been thinking about Christianity is wrong and that they may, in fact, not have any good reason to be confident in their salvation.

[\[00:10:35\]](#transcript-00-10-35-157) On top of that, now, theologically and textually, I'm thinking about verses like: examine yourself to see if you are truly in the faith, or pick any one of the first, second, third John's, you know, love, obedience, faith, they

[\[00:10:48\]](#transcript-00-10-48-158) have to go together.

[\[00:10:49\]](#transcript-00-10-49-159) Examine yourself to make sure that they are going together because if they're not, you don't actually love God and all that other stuff.

[\[00:10:56\]](#transcript-00-10-56-160) So, what would your counsel be to a pastor like me who says, Yes, I'm on board.

[\[00:11:02\]](#transcript-00-11-02-161) I want to, I want to, I want to do gospel ministry from a place of Christ's accomplished work for us on the cross.

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-162) But at the same time, this is a real problem.

[\[00:11:11\]](#transcript-00-11-11-163) So, how do I do this?

[\[00:11:14\]](#transcript-00-11-14-164) Examine yourself, make you know, all this.

[\[00:11:16\]](#transcript-00-11-16-165) How do I do this in that way?

[\[00:11:18\]](#transcript-00-11-18-166) So, I would you believe in the sovereignty of God and salvation, Craig?

[\[00:11:22\]](#transcript-00-11-22-167) Well, of course, yeah, so you consider yourself to be a Calvinist.

[\[00:11:26\]](#transcript-00-11-26-168) Yeah.

[\[00:11:26\]](#transcript-00-11-26-169) Yeah.

[\[00:11:28\]](#transcript-00-11-28-170) For some, for whatever reason, at times, there are portions of our Bibles that

[\[00:11:33\]](#transcript-00-11-33-171) we are put into a context and we forget about them.

[\[00:11:36\]](#transcript-00-11-36-172) So, no matter what context someone is in, the jungles of Africa, a transgender, or someone who was raised in the big evangelical church with the water slide, they all need the same thing.

[\[00:11:49\]](#transcript-00-11-49-173) Their need doesn't change.

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-174) Is that fair?

[\[00:11:52\]](#transcript-00-11-52-175) Yeah, their need doesn't change, but we see different emphases in different parts of the scripture depending on the audience.

[\[00:11:59\]](#transcript-00-11-59-176) Well, let me reward it this way: if you're dead, you're dead.

[\[00:12:02\]](#transcript-00-12-02-177) It doesn't matter how it doesn't resurrected, exactly.

[\[00:12:05\]](#transcript-00-12-05-178) Yeah, and then what resurrects them, right?

[\[00:12:07\]](#transcript-00-12-07-179) It's the same gospel that resurrects all three, right?

[\[00:12:10\]](#transcript-00-12-10-180) It does not change.

[\[00:12:12\]](#transcript-00-12-12-181) So, if I'm wondering if someone is not in the faith, the solution doesn't change.

[\[00:12:18\]](#transcript-00-12-18-182) It's always we present them with the law.

[\[00:12:21\]](#transcript-00-12-21-183) Have you met the standards by God's requirement, perfection to the law?

[\[00:12:25\]](#transcript-00-12-25-184) Well, all three are going to have to say no, right?

[\[00:12:28\]](#transcript-00-12-28-185) Then you ask the second question.

[\[00:12:30\]](#transcript-00-12-30-186) Then, by what means do you consider yourself to be accepted by God?

[\[00:12:34\]](#transcript-00-12-34-187) Well, the two over here are gonna be like, who's God?

[\[00:12:37\]](#transcript-00-12-37-188) Right?

[\[00:12:37\]](#transcript-00-12-37-189) You got the person in the jungles, you're gonna have to explain that to them.

[\[00:12:40\]](#transcript-00-12-40-190) The transgender, depending on their background.

[\[00:12:42\]](#transcript-00-12-42-191) And then you're talking about this person in the South who's been raised in the church.

[\[00:12:46\]](#transcript-00-12-46-192) If they say, well, and if their answer isn't faith in Christ and the gospel and trusting in His sufficiency on my behalf, if it's anything other than that, like a good person, my baptism, then you understand their experience

[\[00:12:58\]](#transcript-00-12-58-193) at church isn't really a gospel, they haven't heard the gospel yet.

[\[00:13:03\]](#transcript-00-13-03-194) So, uh, salvation is always by one means and one means only.

[\[00:13:08\]](#transcript-00-13-08-195) It's not taking your faith more seriously, doing certain kinds of acts of obedience.

[\[00:13:13\]](#transcript-00-13-13-196) You can never equate someone's salvation with their performance because if you do that, at that moment, you're not saved by faith, you're being saved by works.

[\[00:13:22\]](#transcript-00-13-22-197) I also pass through very similar contexts to you do.

[\[00:13:24\]](#transcript-00-13-24-198) I mean, Nashville, Bible Belt of the, you know, of the United States, and I very rarely meet anybody in my city that doesn't go to some kind of a church or associated with some kind of a church or

[\[00:13:34\]](#transcript-00-13-34-199) call themselves a Christian.

[\[00:13:35\]](#transcript-00-13-35-200) Exactly, right?

[\[00:13:36\]](#transcript-00-13-36-201) Although, increasingly these days, it even feels like it's changed in the last like 10 years or it has only in that Tennessee has gained a lot of outside of people from outside of the go back to California.

[\[00:13:49\]](#transcript-00-13-49-202) Actually, that would mean you would have to go back.

[\[00:13:51\]](#transcript-00-13-51-203) Exactly.

[\[00:13:52\]](#transcript-00-13-52-204) Yeah.

[\[00:13:52\]](#transcript-00-13-52-205) So, this is for me pastoring and encouraging other pastors, it's always what is what is it that leads people to salvation?

[\[00:14:01\]](#transcript-00-14-01-206) And Paul says it's the gospel, right?

[\[00:14:02\]](#transcript-00-14-02-207) The gospel is the power unto salvation.

[\[00:14:04\]](#transcript-00-14-04-208) So if I'm ever questioning if someone's truly not understood or they're not living according to how they're supposed to be living.

[\[00:14:13\]](#transcript-00-14-13-209) It might be one, they're anemic and they've not been discipled because that definitely happens because Paul said rebuke anemic churches.

[\[00:14:20\]](#transcript-00-14-20-210) It's like, hey, Corinthians, stop sleeping with each other, right?

[\[00:14:24\]](#transcript-00-14-24-211) or they actually aren't saved, and the only solution to salvation is the gospel.

[\[00:14:29\]](#transcript-00-14-29-212) So, those are what we're kind of trying to push back with.

[\[00:14:33\]](#transcript-00-14-33-213) If you come in with heavy-handed, hard, harsh preaching, it won't convert them.

[\[00:14:38\]](#transcript-00-14-38-214) So

[\[00:14:40\]](#transcript-00-14-40-215) here's how I would say it.

[\[00:14:42\]](#transcript-00-14-42-216) If I think that the people I'm speaking to, that a number of them are false professors.

[\[00:14:52\]](#transcript-00-14-52-217) By definition, a false professor would be someone who we suspect is unregenerate.

[\[00:15:00\]](#transcript-00-15-00-218) The strategy there, and I know you're going to agree with me.

[\[00:15:03\]](#transcript-00-15-03-219) The strategy there is not to tell dead people to try harder, right?

[\[00:15:08\]](#transcript-00-15-08-220) It's not to tell dead people to be holy or to obey more or to be more serious, et cetera.

[\[00:15:18\]](#transcript-00-15-18-221) The solution in that environment, the strategy in that environment, is to preach the law in all of its holiness, in all of its perfection, the fact that it reflects God's own holy character, and that it is to be

[\[00:15:31\]](#transcript-00-15-31-222) obeyed perfectly at a spiritual level.

[\[00:15:34\]](#transcript-00-15-34-223) You know, the Jesus in Matthew 5 kind of thing, right?

[\[00:15:38\]](#transcript-00-15-38-224) You need a righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees.

[\[00:15:42\]](#transcript-00-15-42-225) You have heard it said, what a shocking, audacious statement, right?

[\[00:15:46\]](#transcript-00-15-46-226) You've heard it said in the 10 words, right, that God gave on Sinai.

[\[00:15:50\]](#transcript-00-15-50-227) You shall not murder, but I am going to apply that at a spiritual level to your heart, that if you have anger in your heart toward your brother, you're a lawbreaker.

[\[00:15:57\]](#transcript-00-15-57-228) He does the same thing, excuse me, with the seventh commandment.

[\[00:16:00\]](#transcript-00-16-00-229) And he sums up Matthew chapter 5, verse 48: you must be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.

[\[00:16:07\]](#transcript-00-16-07-230) That's the way that we would preach the law.

[\[00:16:09\]](#transcript-00-16-09-231) And the law preached that way to a sinner.

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-232) All it can do is lay you bare.

[\[00:16:16\]](#transcript-00-16-16-233) All it can do is condemn and crush and kill you.

[\[00:16:20\]](#transcript-00-16-20-234) It cannot save you, and so that to me is where you begin.

[\[00:16:24\]](#transcript-00-16-24-235) If you think that you've got, so don't misunderstand what we're saying, not that you are, Sean, but even for the listener out there, we are not saying that you don't preach the law, you do, you preach the law

[\[00:16:33\]](#transcript-00-16-33-236) to expose, you know, the law used as a mirror, right?

[\[00:16:37\]](#transcript-00-16-37-237) That as we assess ourselves in light of it, we see I'm undone, I'm condemned, and I'm driven to Jesus Christ who died to fulfill the law's penalty and who lived to fulfill its requirements, right?

[\[00:16:50\]](#transcript-00-16-50-238) And he is the forgiveness of my sins.

[\[00:16:53\]](#transcript-00-16-53-239) He is my righteousness.

[\[00:16:54\]](#transcript-00-16-54-240) I've covered in his robes.

[\[00:16:57\]](#transcript-00-16-57-241) I've washed my robes and made them white in his blood.

[\[00:16:59\]](#transcript-00-16-59-242) And now, through him alone, by faith in him alone, apart from anything that I could ever do, I have peace with God now and forever.

[\[00:17:06\]](#transcript-00-17-06-243) Right.

[\[00:17:07\]](#transcript-00-17-07-244) So that's that law and gospel reality.

[\[00:17:10\]](#transcript-00-17-10-245) You know, Charles Spurgeon says, and Spurgeon's a guy that we all like, and it's hard to disagree with Charles.

[\[00:17:17\]](#transcript-00-17-17-246) Hard, very hard to disagree with Charles.

[\[00:17:19\]](#transcript-00-17-19-247) Even the Armenians love him.

[\[00:17:20\]](#transcript-00-17-20-248) That's right.

[\[00:17:21\]](#transcript-00-17-21-249) I know.

[\[00:17:22\]](#transcript-00-17-22-250) I'm always shocked.

[\[00:17:23\]](#transcript-00-17-23-251) So, while we're for our purposes today, it's really interesting too.

[\[00:17:26\]](#transcript-00-17-26-252) Not only do Arminians love him, but folks that are not covenantal theologians love him, and he was covenantal, folks that might get a little nervous about the way that we would talk about the distinction between the law and

[\[00:17:38\]](#transcript-00-17-38-253) the gospel, love him, and he would say the same things.

[\[00:17:41\]](#transcript-00-17-41-254) And he has a sermon in a little book that I think Michael Reeves edited it, Christ's Glorious Achievements.

[\[00:17:50\]](#transcript-00-17-50-255) And the first sermon in that book is called Christ: The End of the Law.

[\[00:17:54\]](#transcript-00-17-54-256) It's worth a read because he does this very thing where he talks about the law to a sinner, it can only judge, it can only condemn, it can only kill.

[\[00:18:04\]](#transcript-00-18-04-257) And he says, yet, strange irony, we cannot keep men away from it.

[\[00:18:10\]](#transcript-00-18-10-258) Just like the gnat that is drawn to the candle, even though it burns its wings, we cannot keep men from seeking righteousness by the law.

[\[00:18:18\]](#transcript-00-18-18-259) And then he goes on to say other things: like, brethren, as we talk about the law, we're breaking it.

[\[00:18:23\]](#transcript-00-18-23-260) You know, as we talk about its letter, we're violating its spirit.

[\[00:18:27\]](#transcript-00-18-27-261) All of these things.

[\[00:18:28\]](#transcript-00-18-28-262) And that his point in all of it is that when it comes to righteousness before God, there is only one way to receive it, and it is not through the law.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-263) He says, if you ever think that you can ascend to God up the trembling sides of Mount Sinai.

[\[00:18:45\]](#transcript-00-18-45-264) It is evidence that you have never seen that shaking mountain at all.

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-265) Like you don't understand the law.

[\[00:18:51\]](#transcript-00-18-51-266) Let's just forget everything else we were going to talk about and just quote spurts into each other Right, it's beautiful,, and always so good.

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-267) It's really good.

[\[00:18:59\]](#transcript-00-18-59-268) Just so another question that you asked was: What about examine yourself to see if you're of the faith?

[\[00:19:05\]](#transcript-00-19-05-269) Right.

[\[00:19:06\]](#transcript-00-19-06-270) Um, Justin and I had a really long conversation one day on a podcast about this because we just heard this passage used so often.

[\[00:19:15\]](#transcript-00-19-15-271) In that context, Paul is dealing with people who are questioning his apostleship and his gospel.

[\[00:19:21\]](#transcript-00-19-21-272) And so he tells them: okay, you don't accept my apostleship and you don't accept my gospel.

[\[00:19:26\]](#transcript-00-19-26-273) Well, that's how you came to faith.

[\[00:19:27\]](#transcript-00-19-27-274) So you better examine yourself to see if you're truly of the faith because you got it from me.

[\[00:19:32\]](#transcript-00-19-32-275) And in that context, it doesn't really work out unless you are somehow questioning your pastor's faith, I guess, or questioning the Apostle Paul's faith.

[\[00:19:42\]](#transcript-00-19-42-276) But does that mean that there isn't other portions of scripture that would cause us to think that a self-examination isn't warranted.

[\[00:19:50\]](#transcript-00-19-50-277) Yes.

[\[00:19:52\]](#transcript-00-19-52-278) The only time that you're going to see that there's a self-examination that is warranted is in passages where there's unrepentant sin, where you are being confronted and you've been told, hey, you're in sin, you need to repent, and

[\[00:20:03\]](#transcript-00-20-03-279) you're unwilling to, you're unwilling to repent.

[\[00:20:06\]](#transcript-00-20-06-280) Justin and I would agree.

[\[00:20:07\]](#transcript-00-20-07-281) You really need to examine yourself at this moment because if you are on, if you have confronted you with the law, we've shown you you are condemned.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-282) You were unwilling to stop doing this.

[\[00:20:16\]](#transcript-00-20-16-283) You really are with the law, and we've demonstrated that the way that you are living is out of step with what the Lord says is good.

[\[00:20:23\]](#transcript-00-20-23-284) And you disagree with that.

[\[00:20:25\]](#transcript-00-20-25-285) like I don't need to stop doing this.

[\[00:20:27\]](#transcript-00-20-27-286) Then, at that point, you are actually demonstrating that your faith is not in scripture and in Christ, and you really should think twice about calling yourself a Christian.

[\[00:20:38\]](#transcript-00-20-38-287) That's very clear in scripture.

[\[00:20:39\]](#transcript-00-20-39-288) 1 John talks about that.

[\[00:20:40\]](#transcript-00-20-40-289) James talks about that.

[\[00:20:41\]](#transcript-00-20-41-290) And so there is the unrepentant disagreement with the law.

[\[00:20:45\]](#transcript-00-20-45-291) Now, there are people that I'm sure you've experienced this, we both have, where even our own lives, or at times where we can get trapped in sin.

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-292) I don't agree, I should be doing this.

[\[00:20:54\]](#transcript-00-20-54-293) I mean, I agree I shouldn't be doing this.

[\[00:20:55\]](#transcript-00-20-55-294) We could even be blind to the sin that we're exactly like, I don't want to do this, I don't want to be in it, and I need help getting out of it.

[\[00:21:02\]](#transcript-00-21-02-295) That's very different being trapped in sin versus not agreeing with God on your sin, right?

[\[00:21:08\]](#transcript-00-21-08-296) So, at that point, I would say, hey, you really do need to think about your profession of faith because you're not agreeing with God on the gospel and you're not agreeing with God on what is said.

[\[00:21:18\]](#transcript-00-21-18-297) Yeah, and even what's the difference between a Christian and a non-Christian or a believer and an unbeliever?

[\[00:21:24\]](#transcript-00-21-24-298) It's not that the believer doesn't sin and that the unbeliever does sin.

[\[00:21:30\]](#transcript-00-21-30-299) It's that the believer agrees with God about his sin and sides with God against it, and then is trusting a righteousness that is alien to him to cover his sins, trusting in agreeing with God about my sin, siding

[\[00:21:48\]](#transcript-00-21-48-300) with God against it.

[\[00:21:49\]](#transcript-00-21-49-301) I'm casting myself into the arms of the Savior whose blood I'm covered by and whose righteousness has robed me.

[\[00:21:57\]](#transcript-00-21-57-302) That's what makes a person a Christian.

[\[00:21:59\]](#transcript-00-21-59-303) It's that.

[\[00:22:00\]](#transcript-00-22-00-304) It's not that we don't sin.

[\[00:22:02\]](#transcript-00-22-02-305) Of course, we fight against it, we strive against it.

[\[00:22:04\]](#transcript-00-22-04-306) You know, with the help of God's Spirit, as we live life in the fellowship of the saints, we lock arms together.

[\[00:22:09\]](#transcript-00-22-09-307) As we are pilgrims in this life, we pray for protection from the evil one.

[\[00:22:14\]](#transcript-00-22-14-308) We pray that God would give us grace that we might not sin.

[\[00:22:18\]](#transcript-00-22-18-309) All of those things are right.

[\[00:22:19\]](#transcript-00-22-19-310) And those things are not contradictory in any way.

[\[00:22:22\]](#transcript-00-22-22-311) To be fully assured and to know that we have rest and peace with God in no way leads to licentiousness.

[\[00:22:30\]](#transcript-00-22-30-312) We continue.

[\[00:22:31\]](#transcript-00-22-31-313) It shouldn't.

[\[00:22:32\]](#transcript-00-22-32-314) It should not.

[\[00:22:33\]](#transcript-00-22-33-315) And I would put it this way: the preaching of the utter sufficiency of Jesus Christ never caused anyone to sin because let's be frank, none of us need help sinning, we have a corrupt flesh that still loves sin,

[\[00:22:48\]](#transcript-00-22-48-316) right?

[\[00:22:48\]](#transcript-00-22-48-317) And so we don't need help sinning.

[\[00:22:50\]](#transcript-00-22-50-318) And so the fact, the idea, I think this is partly what Paul's getting at, even in Romans 6.

[\[00:22:54\]](#transcript-00-22-54-319) The idea that Jesus, who died for our sins and who is our righteousness, the idea that being united to Christ would somehow coddle or nourish corruption and sin in us is absurd.

[\[00:23:10\]](#transcript-00-23-10-320) Like to be united to Christ, it's like we've been united to divine, like John 15 paradigm.

[\[00:23:17\]](#transcript-00-23-17-321) And because there's life in him, there's now life in me.

[\[00:23:21\]](#transcript-00-23-21-322) And being united to Christ, it's like, man, the fountain of holiness begins to flow.

[\[00:23:26\]](#transcript-00-23-26-323) Jesus is the fountainhead of holiness.

[\[00:23:29\]](#transcript-00-23-29-324) And those streams do not dry up.

[\[00:23:32\]](#transcript-00-23-32-325) I mean, and it only flows one direction.

[\[00:23:34\]](#transcript-00-23-34-326) The only way that we would ever be holy is to be united to the Holy One.

[\[00:23:40\]](#transcript-00-23-40-327) And so that's a lot of what we're trying to communicate as well: is that holiness is something that it only flows from Christ to us, and it is through our vital union with Him by faith, that we would

[\[00:23:52\]](#transcript-00-23-52-328) ever be holy in the first place.

[\[00:23:54\]](#transcript-00-23-54-329) And so we would say that if you want to see holy people in your church, of course, we preach the law, not only the way we were talking about earlier, like to the unbeliever.

[\[00:24:05\]](#transcript-00-24-05-330) But we also preach the law as the guide of our lives, as the rule of life in Christ.

[\[00:24:10\]](#transcript-00-24-10-331) And we help, we encourage each other.

[\[00:24:12\]](#transcript-00-24-12-332) We're like, man, look how good this is.

[\[00:24:14\]](#transcript-00-24-14-333) Look how wise God's law is.

[\[00:24:16\]](#transcript-00-24-16-334) Man, we want to live like that, don't we?

[\[00:24:17\]](#transcript-00-24-17-335) Because we've been given new hearts that now delight in God's law and love it.

[\[00:24:21\]](#transcript-00-24-21-336) And it's like, man, we want to live like this.

[\[00:24:23\]](#transcript-00-24-23-337) We often fail.

[\[00:24:24\]](#transcript-00-24-24-338) That's why we need repentance, why we need to continue to turn to Jesus.

[\[00:24:27\]](#transcript-00-24-27-339) Amen.

[\[00:24:28\]](#transcript-00-24-28-340) We preach the law like that, but we also understand that the power unto sanctification is only through the preaching of Christ.

[\[00:24:36\]](#transcript-00-24-36-341) The law can guide sanctification, but it can't empower it.

[\[00:24:40\]](#transcript-00-24-40-342) Only Christ and the power of God through our union with Christ is what actually produces the transformation.

[\[00:24:47\]](#transcript-00-24-47-343) So we got to keep preaching Jesus to the saints for that reason.

[\[00:24:52\]](#transcript-00-24-52-344) So, 1 John.

[\[00:24:53\]](#transcript-00-24-53-345) Well, just to be clear, I want to make sure I've articulated what you're saying back to you.

[\[00:24:58\]](#transcript-00-24-58-346) Not that I all of that, but let me try to put a little bit of, especially what you said, brother.

[\[00:25:02\]](#transcript-00-25-02-347) Um, John, you said, I think that the only time a call for self-examination is warranted is if there's unrepentant sin.

[\[00:25:12\]](#transcript-00-25-12-348) A call for self-uh, if you're going to look at it in scripture.

[\[00:25:16\]](#transcript-00-25-16-349) Well, yeah, that's where I'm looking at it.

[\[00:25:18\]](#transcript-00-25-18-350) No, I know.

[\[00:25:19\]](#transcript-00-25-19-351) Yeah, we agree about the book.

[\[00:25:22\]](#transcript-00-25-22-352) I guess what I mean is a call for self-examination in question of one's salvation.

[\[00:25:27\]](#transcript-00-25-27-353) Yeah, that's right.

[\[00:25:28\]](#transcript-00-25-28-354) Because Paul says, examine yourself to see if you're in the faith.

[\[00:25:31\]](#transcript-00-25-31-355) Versus, examine yourself to see if you're being effective.

[\[00:25:33\]](#transcript-00-25-33-356) Because Peter does this.

[\[00:25:34\]](#transcript-00-25-34-357) Yeah.

[\[00:25:35\]](#transcript-00-25-35-358) For Peter's like, Hey, are these fruits in you?

[\[00:25:37\]](#transcript-00-25-37-359) Versus 2 Peter 1, are these fruits in you?

[\[00:25:39\]](#transcript-00-25-39-360) Because if they are, you're effective, and if they're not, you're ineffective, and you forgot you've been cleansed.

[\[00:25:44\]](#transcript-00-25-44-361) Yeah, so there's this difference between effectiveness, that is definitely being called a lot.

[\[00:25:51\]](#transcript-00-25-51-362) I'm thinking, 1 John, you know, you've been known by God, loved by God.

[\[00:25:54\]](#transcript-00-25-54-363) Yeah.

[\[00:25:55\]](#transcript-00-25-55-364) So there's a difference between, hey, you should examine the way you're acting right now because it's not loving, it's not kind, and it's not for the sake of the body.

[\[00:26:03\]](#transcript-00-26-03-365) And uh, this is not effective for what we're doing, or even say, Yeah, and it's not honoring the Lord, it's helping your brother, it's not helping your neighbor.

[\[00:26:09\]](#transcript-00-26-09-366) Yeah, there's a lot of calls to that, and I would say every epistle has those, it's kind of the greeting, uplift, rebuke that's in that rebuke section of like, I'm rebuking you because, well, you really should examine how

[\[00:26:21\]](#transcript-00-26-21-367) you're acting right now.

[\[00:26:22\]](#transcript-00-26-22-368) It's not appropriate.

[\[00:26:23\]](#transcript-00-26-23-369) Compared to you need to examine yourself because I don't think you're in the faith.

[\[00:26:29\]](#transcript-00-26-29-370) Now, that is a very, very important, like, accusation, right?

[\[00:26:35\]](#transcript-00-26-35-371) Like, even in First John, first John's like, perfect love casts out all fear.

[\[00:26:38\]](#transcript-00-26-38-372) Well, who has perfect love?

[\[00:26:39\]](#transcript-00-26-39-373) Jesus does, right?

[\[00:26:40\]](#transcript-00-26-40-374) Towards us.

[\[00:26:41\]](#transcript-00-26-41-375) So we have no fear.

[\[00:26:42\]](#transcript-00-26-42-376) There's no condemnation.

[\[00:26:44\]](#transcript-00-26-44-377) There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, right?

[\[00:26:48\]](#transcript-00-26-48-378) When you think about Romans 8, what can separate you from the love of God that's in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:26:52\]](#transcript-00-26-52-379) So we're always comforted by God's love for us.

[\[00:26:55\]](#transcript-00-26-55-380) We love, first John, we love because he first loved us, right?

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-381) The only time that you should really have a concern about your salvation is when you are now messing with the underbelly of the gospel, right?

[\[00:27:12\]](#transcript-00-27-12-382) That's where I was saying, even in that path, that the discipline passages are the ones where we're like, look, we've walked you down the road.

[\[00:27:19\]](#transcript-00-27-19-383) Now, you're now you're acting like an unbeliever completely, versus you're acting sinful and not helpful.

[\[00:27:26\]](#transcript-00-27-26-384) Now you're acting like an unbeliever.

[\[00:27:28\]](#transcript-00-27-28-385) So, I have like, I have a dozen different things that I could say right now that, and maybe we'll get to them.

[\[00:27:34\]](#transcript-00-27-34-386) Uh, I'll say something that is also maybe provocative, and I'm not trying to be a shock jock with this, but even maybe to dovetail a little bit because I agree there, there are different kinds of self-examination, I think

[\[00:27:43\]](#transcript-00-27-43-387) that's a good distinction.

[\[00:27:45\]](#transcript-00-27-45-388) Like examining, are you being effective?

[\[00:27:47\]](#transcript-00-27-47-389) Examining, are you being helpful to your neighbor?

[\[00:27:50\]](#transcript-00-27-50-390) Are you living in a way that honors God and blesses your brothers and sisters and is for the edification of the body?

[\[00:27:55\]](#transcript-00-27-55-391) Or are you not?

[\[00:27:56\]](#transcript-00-27-56-392) Versus examining yourself as to whether you're even a Christian at all.

[\[00:28:00\]](#transcript-00-28-00-393) Or maybe phrase it this way: when should a person question his or her salvation?

[\[00:28:05\]](#transcript-00-28-05-394) Right?

[\[00:28:06\]](#transcript-00-28-06-395) And I think that the time when that is most plain in scripture is when you are being confronted with sin in your life and you are unrepentant.

[\[00:28:18\]](#transcript-00-28-18-396) Or I might even put it this way: now, this is going to presuppose a lot that you're in a healthy church that preaches the gospel, that is led by godly elders, and practices healthy discipline.

[\[00:28:31\]](#transcript-00-28-31-397) It assumes all that.

[\[00:28:32\]](#transcript-00-28-32-398) But I would.

[\[00:28:33\]](#transcript-00-28-33-399) So there's like six churches that this is applying to, yeah.

[\[00:28:36\]](#transcript-00-28-36-400) So, for all, for all, you know, like maybe 500 people, like, I don't even know how big the audience is, but for all 12 of you that this applies to, right?

[\[00:28:44\]](#transcript-00-28-44-401) Um, I hope you're encouraged by what I'm about to do.

[\[00:28:46\]](#transcript-00-28-46-402) Right.

[\[00:28:47\]](#transcript-00-28-47-403) Uh, I think in a church that's healthy, that practices discipline rightly, we should question our salvation when we are facing the discipline of the church.

[\[00:28:59\]](#transcript-00-28-59-404) And outside of that, we need obviously, we're still calling each other all the time.

[\[00:29:04\]](#transcript-00-29-04-405) In our services, we read the law every week, we confess sin every week corporately.

[\[00:29:08\]](#transcript-00-29-08-406) We're assured of our forgiveness in Christ.

[\[00:29:10\]](#transcript-00-29-10-407) But what are we doing there?

[\[00:29:11\]](#transcript-00-29-11-408) I mean, we're calling one another to repentance, perpetually all the time.

[\[00:29:15\]](#transcript-00-29-15-409) Amen.

[\[00:29:15\]](#transcript-00-29-15-410) Which is a form of examination.

[\[00:29:18\]](#transcript-00-29-18-411) Right.

[\[00:29:18\]](#transcript-00-29-18-412) We do.

[\[00:29:18\]](#transcript-00-29-18-413) We do that, but we're doing that in a way where we know, man, like we sing all the time, our sins, they're many, his mercy is more.

[\[00:29:26\]](#transcript-00-29-26-414) You know, we're still doing that from a place of we're convicted, we lament, we grieve the fact that we're weak, we don't want to sin, but yet we do.

[\[00:29:34\]](#transcript-00-29-34-415) So, what do we do with our sin?

[\[00:29:36\]](#transcript-00-29-36-416) We confess it, we acknowledge it, we pull it into the light, but we're doing that from a place knowing that God is our Father, not our judge, knowing that we're safe and secure in Christ, we're loved and known

[\[00:29:47\]](#transcript-00-29-47-417) by God, and we confess our sins.

[\[00:29:50\]](#transcript-00-29-50-418) That's very different than, hey, uh, I'm facing the discipline of the church, and

[\[00:29:57\]](#transcript-00-29-57-419) I should look at my life and question sincerely whether or not I am in Christ or not.

[\[00:30:02\]](#transcript-00-30-02-420) Those are different things.

[\[00:30:04\]](#transcript-00-30-04-421) Yeah.

[\[00:30:05\]](#transcript-00-30-05-422) So that was a thought that I had, one of the 12 thoughts.

[\[00:30:09\]](#transcript-00-30-09-423) Right.

[\[00:30:10\]](#transcript-00-30-10-424) Good.

[\[00:30:10\]](#transcript-00-30-10-425) Hard to choose, I'm guessing, between them.

[\[00:30:12\]](#transcript-00-30-12-426) Like, which one is your favorite?

[\[00:30:13\]](#transcript-00-30-13-427) Brother, I'm greatly perplexed over here.

[\[00:30:15\]](#transcript-00-30-15-428) Yeah.

[\[00:30:17\]](#transcript-00-30-17-429) You guys specialize, forgive me if that's not the right word, but I think if it is the right word, it's a good thing to specialize in helping believers find assurance.

[\[00:30:30\]](#transcript-00-30-30-430) Why do you think that resonates so powerfully with your audience?

[\[00:30:35\]](#transcript-00-30-35-431) Because I mean, you have a pretty decent audience and people never get tired of it.

[\[00:30:40\]](#transcript-00-30-40-432) People just need more of it, they love it.

[\[00:30:43\]](#transcript-00-30-43-433) Why do you think that resonates so much?

[\[00:30:46\]](#transcript-00-30-46-434) Yeah, it affects their life, their daily life, right?

[\[00:30:50\]](#transcript-00-30-50-435) So if you live in, if you live,

[\[00:30:54\]](#transcript-00-30-54-436) H have you guys ever passed a police officer speeding?

[\[00:31:01\]](#transcript-00-31-01-437) No.

[\[00:31:03\]](#transcript-00-31-03-438) And then what do you do for the next 10 minutes?

[\[00:31:07\]](#transcript-00-31-07-439) You're waiting, right?

[\[00:31:08\]](#transcript-00-31-08-440) You're just like, you're waiting, you're waiting, you're waiting.

[\[00:31:11\]](#transcript-00-31-11-441) Am I going to get?

[\[00:31:11\]](#transcript-00-31-11-442) I'm going to get, did he catch me?

[\[00:31:12\]](#transcript-00-31-12-443) Did he catch me?

[\[00:31:13\]](#transcript-00-31-13-444) Did he catch me?

[\[00:31:13\]](#transcript-00-31-13-445) Did he catch me?

[\[00:31:14\]](#transcript-00-31-14-446) Right.

[\[00:31:14\]](#transcript-00-31-14-447) That's how most people live their Christian faith.

[\[00:31:16\]](#transcript-00-31-16-448) Is God going to catch me?

[\[00:31:18\]](#transcript-00-31-18-449) Is this going to be the day?

[\[00:31:19\]](#transcript-00-31-19-450) Is this, is this it?

[\[00:31:20\]](#transcript-00-31-20-451) This is it?

[\[00:31:20\]](#transcript-00-31-20-452) I'm going to, he's going to, and so they live in this constant fear of the judge coming after them.

[\[00:31:25\]](#transcript-00-31-25-453) And yes, I know I've been cleansed.

[\[00:31:27\]](#transcript-00-31-27-454) And so, we most people have what a portion of the gospel.

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-455) There's really like four aspects to the gospel, anything about it: like you have your forgiveness where God cleanses you of your sins, right?

[\[00:31:38\]](#transcript-00-31-38-456) This is the part where we stop.

[\[00:31:40\]](#transcript-00-31-40-457) Like, God has forgiven me.

[\[00:31:42\]](#transcript-00-31-42-458) And it's, we have this clean slate mentality of like, if I don't mess up, then I'll make it to heaven.

[\[00:31:46\]](#transcript-00-31-46-459) Well, the second part of the gospel is that is not going to go well for you.

[\[00:31:51\]](#transcript-00-31-51-460) So, all of Jesus's righteousness, everything that he did to obey, what does it say?

[\[00:31:56\]](#transcript-00-31-56-461) We're clothed in it, we're imputed with it.

[\[00:31:58\]](#transcript-00-31-58-462) So, those are the first two parts of the gospel, which is so thankful.

[\[00:32:02\]](#transcript-00-32-02-463) The third part of the gospel is that not only have you been forgiven and clothed, the power of the spirit comes and lives within you, right?

[\[00:32:09\]](#transcript-00-32-09-464) This is the promise of the new covenant.

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-465) And then the fourth part of the gospel is that it's all 100% kept by God's power, right?

[\[00:32:16\]](#transcript-00-32-16-466) And this is 1 Peter chapter 1, verses 4.

[\[00:32:21\]](#transcript-00-32-21-467) He says, by God's divine power, he will preserve this until the day of judgment.

[\[00:32:25\]](#transcript-00-32-25-468) So, when you understand that perspective of it, you live life differently.

[\[00:32:32\]](#transcript-00-32-32-469) A lot of people live their life trying to get into God's kingdom and making sure that at the end of their life they'll make it.

[\[00:32:39\]](#transcript-00-32-39-470) You'll hear the tone and perspective of the New Testament.

[\[00:32:42\]](#transcript-00-32-42-471) It's very different.

[\[00:32:44\]](#transcript-00-32-44-472) You are in.

[\[00:32:46\]](#transcript-00-32-46-473) Now live like it.

[\[00:32:48\]](#transcript-00-32-48-474) Live as a light to others.

[\[00:32:49\]](#transcript-00-32-49-475) Care for them.

[\[00:32:50\]](#transcript-00-32-50-476) As a matter of fact, you are so safe and secure, you can die living for the king because all is safe and sound.

[\[00:32:57\]](#transcript-00-32-57-477) So, when people are liberated from a full gospel, like all of the gospel is given to them, they believe in all of it.

[\[00:33:04\]](#transcript-00-33-04-478) This is what Paul is getting upset with him, and even says, Not liberated from the full gospel, liberated to a full gospel, liberated from the fear-based gospel.

[\[00:33:14\]](#transcript-00-33-14-479) Yeah, you know, Paul gets really angry at the Colossians, at the Galatians, he's like, who's who's used witchcraft to bewitch you?

[\[00:33:21\]](#transcript-00-33-21-480) It's like, you're you, how did you begin?

[\[00:33:23\]](#transcript-00-33-23-481) So you begin by God's sovereignty upon your life by faith.

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-482) He goes, And now you're going to continue by the law, the law of obedience, so you can earn my favor.

[\[00:33:32\]](#transcript-00-33-32-483) He says, No, the way you began is why you continue.

[\[00:33:35\]](#transcript-00-33-35-484) You came into the faith by trusting in the sufficiency of Jesus, and you will continue by trusting in the sufficiency of Jesus.

[\[00:33:42\]](#transcript-00-33-42-485) So now obey this way.

[\[00:33:43\]](#transcript-00-33-43-486) So I think a lot of people have, it's really resonated with them because a lot of preaching coming out of revivalism, coming out of legalistic pietism, even the prosperity gospel, right?

[\[00:33:56\]](#transcript-00-33-56-487) You do your part.

[\[00:33:57\]](#transcript-00-33-57-488) God does his part.

[\[00:33:58\]](#transcript-00-33-58-489) He'll bless you.

[\[00:33:59\]](#transcript-00-33-59-490) And even charismatic theology, where it is, they're always trying to get the Holy Spirit within them so they can confirm their faith, like speaking in tongues and certain aspects of it.

[\[00:34:10\]](#transcript-00-34-10-491) So, when you finally tell someone your entire existence in relationship to God is fully wrapped up in His power, there's a moment that's liberating, not to the moment where I'm like, okay, I'm going to go live for myself.

[\[00:34:21\]](#transcript-00-34-21-492) You realize I want to be closer to that, and I want everyone else to experience that.

[\[00:34:27\]](#transcript-00-34-27-493) So, my way I live, the way I think, the way I talk, it's all going to be a reflection of the assurance that I have, and all my peace and joy comes from that.

[\[00:34:37\]](#transcript-00-34-37-494) And I want you to have that peace and joy as well.

[\[00:34:40\]](#transcript-00-34-40-495) When you get around people who only have the cleansing side of the gospel and they're trying to work off the rest, they're often, well, when we fail, we sin.

[\[00:34:49\]](#transcript-00-34-49-496) So we're often depressed.

[\[00:34:50\]](#transcript-00-34-50-497) We're often doubting.

[\[00:34:52\]](#transcript-00-34-52-498) And then the only way to sometimes find assurance is like, well, I'm better than Sean.

[\[00:34:56\]](#transcript-00-34-56-499) So I become judgmental.

[\[00:34:57\]](#transcript-00-34-57-500) I have a high bar, but go on.

[\[00:35:00\]](#transcript-00-35-00-501) But you become judgmental.

[\[00:35:02\]](#transcript-00-35-02-502) I mean, how many judgmental Christians have you met?

[\[00:35:04\]](#transcript-00-35-04-503) Very few, right?

[\[00:35:06\]](#transcript-00-35-06-504) No, I think all of them of whom I am the foremost.

[\[00:35:09\]](#transcript-00-35-09-505) Yeah, right.

[\[00:35:10\]](#transcript-00-35-10-506) I think the way I would begin to answer, you asked, why is it that talking about assurance resonates with people?

[\[00:35:18\]](#transcript-00-35-18-507) I think there's a lot here.

[\[00:35:21\]](#transcript-00-35-21-508) I mean, I think at the most basic level, it's because as believers, we are sinner saints, we are at the same time, we're justified, but we still sin.

[\[00:35:30\]](#transcript-00-35-30-509) And so the fact that we still sin troubles us.

[\[00:35:33\]](#transcript-00-35-33-510) Our consciences accuse us.

[\[00:35:35\]](#transcript-00-35-35-511) The evil one doubles down on that, right?

[\[00:35:39\]](#transcript-00-35-39-512) The way that Satan operates, I mean, we could talk about any number of things right now, but the way that the evil one operates, to people who are outside of Christ, he convinces them, you don't need mercy, you're

[\[00:35:47\]](#transcript-00-35-47-513) fine.

[\[00:35:48\]](#transcript-00-35-48-514) But to people who are in Christ, he says, Oh, there's mercy in the Lord Jesus Christ, but not for you.

[\[00:35:58\]](#transcript-00-35-58-515) And I think many among us, our consciences are more tender than we might let on.

[\[00:36:04\]](#transcript-00-36-04-516) We're riddled by guilt and fear and shame.

[\[00:36:07\]](#transcript-00-36-07-517) And when we have some sense of the holiness of God from the scriptures, we think, my goodness, he is magnificent, he is pure, he is wholly good, but I'm none of that, right?

[\[00:36:22\]](#transcript-00-36-22-518) And he is righteously wrathful against evil.

[\[00:36:25\]](#transcript-00-36-25-519) And I know that there is sin that just continues to come from the corruption of my flesh.

[\[00:36:32\]](#transcript-00-36-32-520) And when we're not taught, and this is what John was getting at, people have not come from contexts in the church, many, where they've been taught well about everything that Jesus has done for them, how the work of

[\[00:36:46\]](#transcript-00-36-46-521) redemption is over, right?

[\[00:36:48\]](#transcript-00-36-48-522) And how there is nothing left for them to do when it comes to peace with God.

[\[00:36:53\]](#transcript-00-36-53-523) And so there is this underlying assumption for many people, that there is some contribution that I need to make in order to know that I'm safe, and I'm going to fail in making that contribution well enough.

[\[00:37:06\]](#transcript-00-37-06-524) And we see it all over, or preserving my safe, or there is a sure, or there's a sense in which I question, like I know, I know that I do not live the way that I want to live.

[\[00:37:18\]](#transcript-00-37-18-525) I'm disappointed in myself.

[\[00:37:19\]](#transcript-00-37-19-526) God has to be.

[\[00:37:21\]](#transcript-00-37-21-527) There's that suspicion, or like you said, that analogy is beautiful.

[\[00:37:24\]](#transcript-00-37-24-528) If you pass the police officer on the side of the road and you're looking in the rearview mirror, there's this suspicion that a lot of saints have that at the end of the day, God is going to flip

[\[00:37:35\]](#transcript-00-37-35-529) the script and He's going to judge me, and he would be right to do so because I'm not worthy, right?

[\[00:37:40\]](#transcript-00-37-40-530) Is how we feel.

[\[00:37:42\]](#transcript-00-37-42-531) And so I think for all the people out there that have heard us talk about the love of God for them in Christ or the utter sufficiency of Jesus, and everything that He's done for us, and what this

[\[00:37:51\]](#transcript-00-37-51-532) then means for how we relate to God.

[\[00:37:54\]](#transcript-00-37-54-533) The fact that we can be safe in the presence of a holy God is an astonishing word to speak.

[\[00:38:00\]](#transcript-00-38-00-534) And I think for some people, a lot of people have a hard time reconciling that.

[\[00:38:04\]](#transcript-00-38-04-535) Like, is it okay for me to feel safe with a holy God?

[\[00:38:08\]](#transcript-00-38-08-536) Well, in the Lord Jesus Christ, it is, right?

[\[00:38:11\]](#transcript-00-38-11-537) And it's not that Jesus had to come and die and suffer so that God could love you.

[\[00:38:17\]](#transcript-00-38-17-538) It's because God has loved you from before the foundation of the world that Christ came.

[\[00:38:21\]](#transcript-00-38-21-539) And now he's achieved all of these things for you so that there is no barrier to fellowship and communion with God for you anymore, and now live in that.

[\[00:38:30\]](#transcript-00-38-30-540) And we've just not been taught that.

[\[00:38:32\]](#transcript-00-38-32-541) Many of us have not come from an environment where that was what we were fed.

[\[00:38:38\]](#transcript-00-38-38-542) And so we, like Luther, Martin Luther's helpful to me on a lot of these things.

[\[00:38:43\]](#transcript-00-38-43-543) Like Luther would say, just his tirade against the Jews stuff, or oh, you mean his law and gospel stuff?

[\[00:38:48\]](#transcript-00-38-48-544) His law and gospel stuff, or even his Luther's, Luther's really tender conscience, yeah, and the fact that he was so gripped by God's holiness and his sin that until he had had his tower experience and had come to

[\[00:39:02\]](#transcript-00-39-02-545) see that the righteous live by faith, and here's what that means, I love his honesty too, where he would say, you know, we're told to love God.

[\[00:39:09\]](#transcript-00-39-09-546) And he'd say, love God, I hate him.

[\[00:39:13\]](#transcript-00-39-13-547) Why?

[\[00:39:13\]](#transcript-00-39-13-548) Because I see in him, he's a holy judge, and he's going to condemn me.

[\[00:39:18\]](#transcript-00-39-18-549) And he should.

[\[00:39:20\]](#transcript-00-39-20-550) But it's like that's how Luther felt toward God.

[\[00:39:22\]](#transcript-00-39-22-551) And he was so warped out of his frame over this that, you know, he's confessing sin for hours and hours a day.

[\[00:39:28\]](#transcript-00-39-28-552) And he's, you know, flagellating himself and all these kinds of things.

[\[00:39:32\]](#transcript-00-39-32-553) And it's never enough.

[\[00:39:33\]](#transcript-00-39-33-554) And he was exactly right about that.

[\[00:39:36\]](#transcript-00-39-36-555) And I just think there's a lot of people in modern Christianity that have had similar kinds of experiences, or that's what they've absorbed, is that I need to do something.

[\[00:39:46\]](#transcript-00-39-46-556) Last comment here: the canons of Trent.

[\[00:39:49\]](#transcript-00-39-49-557) So, the Council of Trent was a Roman Catholic ecumenical council in the middle of the 16th century that was effectively held somewhat in response to the Protestant Reformation.

[\[00:39:59\]](#transcript-00-39-59-558) So they produce writings, canons, standards of this council.

[\[00:40:05\]](#transcript-00-40-05-559) And I think it's session six, canon 24.

[\[00:40:09\]](#transcript-00-40-09-560) This would have been in the late 1540s.

[\[00:40:11\]](#transcript-00-40-11-561) Effectively, it communicates that if anyone teaches that

[\[00:40:17\]](#transcript-00-40-17-562) fruit or good works, I should say good works or obedience are a fruit of justification received and are not

[\[00:40:28\]](#transcript-00-40-28-563) a cause of justification or of maintaining it, right?

[\[00:40:33\]](#transcript-00-40-33-564) Let him be accursed.

[\[00:40:35\]](#transcript-00-40-35-565) And so I would say that in modern evangelical contexts, nobody is saying that we obey in order to contribute to our justification.

[\[00:40:44\]](#transcript-00-40-44-566) But I think there's an implication sometimes that we obey in order to maintain our justified status.

[\[00:40:51\]](#transcript-00-40-51-567) And that, that idea is straight out of the canons of the Roman Catholic Church that we obey to maintain something.

[\[00:41:00\]](#transcript-00-41-00-568) The Protestant Reformed way to talk about it is we obey because we've been given everything.

[\[00:41:08\]](#transcript-00-41-08-569) And a last analogy, I'm I've lied several times in saying that I'm about to wrap up, and I'm imagining being a congregant in your church on a Sunday morning 17th final point.

[\[00:41:19\]](#transcript-00-41-19-570) Brother, you have buzzed the tower four times.

[\[00:41:21\]](#transcript-00-41-21-571) When are you going to set this thing down?

[\[00:41:23\]](#transcript-00-41-23-572) Yeah, exactly.

[\[00:41:24\]](#transcript-00-41-24-573) So the analogy of the family is useful.

[\[00:41:29\]](#transcript-00-41-29-574) The apostles write this way with respect to obedience.

[\[00:41:32\]](#transcript-00-41-32-575) They'll say, You you're in the family.

[\[00:41:38\]](#transcript-00-41-38-576) That's not changing.

[\[00:41:40\]](#transcript-00-41-40-577) That's what grace means.

[\[00:41:42\]](#transcript-00-41-42-578) But now that you're in the family, here's how the family lives.

[\[00:41:46\]](#transcript-00-41-46-579) Rather than

[\[00:41:48\]](#transcript-00-41-48-580) you're in the family, but in order to stay in the family and not get kicked out, you need to live right.

[\[00:41:55\]](#transcript-00-41-55-581) Just completely different emphasis.

[\[00:41:56\]](#transcript-00-41-56-582) No, you're in the family.

[\[00:41:58\]](#transcript-00-41-58-583) God has adopted you.

[\[00:41:59\]](#transcript-00-41-59-584) He's put his name on you.

[\[00:42:00\]](#transcript-00-42-00-585) He's not ashamed to have done that.

[\[00:42:02\]](#transcript-00-42-02-586) He delights in you.

[\[00:42:03\]](#transcript-00-42-03-587) He looks forward to the day when you're presented pure and blameless in his presence, there's going to be great joy there.

[\[00:42:08\]](#transcript-00-42-08-588) There's rejoicing in heaven over the fact that this has been done for you and you've been united to the Savior.

[\[00:42:14\]](#transcript-00-42-14-589) You're in the family, and that will not change because God has you.

[\[00:42:18\]](#transcript-00-42-18-590) And now, here is how we live in the family.

[\[00:42:21\]](#transcript-00-42-21-591) Live like who you are.

[\[00:42:23\]](#transcript-00-42-23-592) And in my mind and heart, for me, rather than making obedience seem somehow less necessary, or well, I don't need to worry about it.

[\[00:42:34\]](#transcript-00-42-34-593) Then, exact opposite is produced, I think, in the hearts of the saints, where we say, Man, my gosh, I want to live for him.

[\[00:42:42\]](#transcript-00-42-42-594) My goodness, I want to obey.

[\[00:42:45\]](#transcript-00-42-45-595) And that doesn't mean that we're not warned.

[\[00:42:46\]](#transcript-00-42-46-596) We can talk about that in a minute, too.

[\[00:42:47\]](#transcript-00-42-47-597) Like, what do we do with like warnings?

[\[00:42:49\]](#transcript-00-42-49-598) And I mean, even like 1 Corinthians 6:9 to 11, when Paul uses really strong language, here I go buzzing the tower another time.

[\[00:42:58\]](#transcript-00-42-58-599) When he says, you know, like he's just gotten done, like 1 Corinthians 5, he's rebuking the whole church for the fact that there was a man who's having relations with his stepmother, and you're somehow, you're arrogant.

[\[00:43:09\]](#transcript-00-43-09-600) You should be putting this man out.

[\[00:43:11\]](#transcript-00-43-11-601) You should be grieved, but you're arrogant, thinking that this is somehow an expression of Christian freedom or something, that you can just do what you want.

[\[00:43:18\]](#transcript-00-43-18-602) You should remove this man from among you so that he might be restored, so that he might be saved.

[\[00:43:23\]](#transcript-00-43-23-603) And then he's rebuking them for the fact that they're suing each other and they're dragging each other into court.

[\[00:43:27\]](#transcript-00-43-27-604) I mean, it's not a good look.

[\[00:43:29\]](#transcript-00-43-29-605) I mean, it's a tire fire there in Corinth, right?

[\[00:43:31\]](#transcript-00-43-31-606) And so then he says, he names a list of things, all kinds of debauchery and sin that we would find people engaged in.

[\[00:43:39\]](#transcript-00-43-39-607) And he says, Do you not know?

[\[00:43:41\]](#transcript-00-43-41-608) Like, do you not remember?

[\[00:43:42\]](#transcript-00-43-42-609) Have I not told you that people who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God?

[\[00:43:46\]](#transcript-00-43-46-610) Now, that's law, right?

[\[00:43:48\]](#transcript-00-43-48-611) There, man.

[\[00:43:48\]](#transcript-00-43-48-612) That is a word of law, and it should be spoken.

[\[00:43:51\]](#transcript-00-43-51-613) And then he says, This, though, and such were some of you, right?

[\[00:43:55\]](#transcript-00-43-55-614) And then, but now you've been cleansed, you've been washed, you've been sanctified, you've been united to Christ effectively.

[\[00:44:00\]](#transcript-00-44-00-615) And so, I would even say, There, that's an interesting passage where, circling back to our earlier conversation, strong words of warning.

[\[00:44:06\]](#transcript-00-44-06-616) Why would you ever do these things for which the wrath of God is coming?

[\[00:44:09\]](#transcript-00-44-09-617) People who do these things deserve judgment.

[\[00:44:12\]](#transcript-00-44-12-618) You're not that anymore.

[\[00:44:14\]](#transcript-00-44-14-619) You used to be that.

[\[00:44:16\]](#transcript-00-44-16-620) You're different now.

[\[00:44:17\]](#transcript-00-44-17-621) Here's your new reality, and now live like this.

[\[00:44:20\]](#transcript-00-44-20-622) That's what he's emphasizing, even there.

[\[00:44:22\]](#transcript-00-44-22-623) So there's various ways that the apostles even use strong language of warning, not all of them, like some of the some of them are more of that kind of disciplined question, examine yourself stuff.

[\[00:44:33\]](#transcript-00-44-33-624) Other times, it's not calling their salvation into question at all, right?

[\[00:44:39\]](#transcript-00-44-39-625) But it's still strong.

[\[00:44:40\]](#transcript-00-44-40-626) Don't do this.

[\[00:44:42\]](#transcript-00-44-42-627) But I'm not saying that you're not Christ's, but you need to understand: don't do this.

[\[00:44:46\]](#transcript-00-44-46-628) Like, if this is not, this is not how you are to live, and this is not what you are anymore in the first place.

[\[00:44:51\]](#transcript-00-44-51-629) Yeah.

[\[00:44:52\]](#transcript-00-44-52-630) I'll just add one more thing to that.

[\[00:44:54\]](#transcript-00-44-54-631) Um, since I haven't flown by the tire at all yet, get you a couple You should five legs lapse.

[\[00:44:59\]](#transcript-00-44-59-632) It's a good thing to do.

[\[00:45:00\]](#transcript-00-45-00-633) So, water's nice, man.

[\[00:45:01\]](#transcript-00-45-01-634) Come on in.

[\[00:45:02\]](#transcript-00-45-02-635) A lot of Christianity, rightfully so, is centered around good works, right?

[\[00:45:07\]](#transcript-00-45-07-636) We're concerned about that because there's work to be done.

[\[00:45:11\]](#transcript-00-45-11-637) And what we're trying to do is put good works back where they belong.

[\[00:45:15\]](#transcript-00-45-15-638) Good works in the law are to gain God's attention and favor.

[\[00:45:21\]](#transcript-00-45-21-639) Look what I have done.

[\[00:45:22\]](#transcript-00-45-22-640) Do you consider me to be righteous?

[\[00:45:24\]](#transcript-00-45-24-641) Well, there's none righteous, no, not one.

[\[00:45:28\]](#transcript-00-45-28-642) But good works in Christ done by faith, they mean everything, not according, but not for our justification and not for our sanctification.

[\[00:45:37\]](#transcript-00-45-37-643) Then, what are they for?

[\[00:45:38\]](#transcript-00-45-38-644) Think about most of the good works when they're defined in the New Testament, right?

[\[00:45:43\]](#transcript-00-45-43-645) They're all outward-facing, gentle, meek, kind, patience, forgiving, right?

[\[00:45:49\]](#transcript-00-45-49-646) So, even the definition-just doing love and unity.

[\[00:45:51\]](#transcript-00-45-51-647) That's right.

[\[00:45:52\]](#transcript-00-45-52-648) I mean, what are the two greatest commandments?

[\[00:45:53\]](#transcript-00-45-53-649) Love God, love neighbor, right?

[\[00:45:55\]](#transcript-00-45-55-650) So, as we're loving God, we're going to love each other.

[\[00:45:57\]](#transcript-00-45-57-651) So, when you have someone who is assured, they realize that the purpose of their life and good works is not to gain God's attention.

[\[00:46:07\]](#transcript-00-46-07-652) It's because, as Luther says it all so famously, God doesn't need your good works.

[\[00:46:12\]](#transcript-00-46-12-653) He used Christ to save you, but your neighbor needs them, right?

[\[00:46:17\]](#transcript-00-46-17-654) So consider how to build one another up.

[\[00:46:19\]](#transcript-00-46-19-655) Lay your life down, right?

[\[00:46:20\]](#transcript-00-46-20-656) Be sacrificial.

[\[00:46:21\]](#transcript-00-46-21-657) Consider others more significant than yourself.

[\[00:46:23\]](#transcript-00-46-23-658) Even the fruits of the spirit, they're all outward-facing, not inward-facing.

[\[00:46:28\]](#transcript-00-46-28-659) So when someone finally realizes, oh, I can fail and fumble and do good works, and God will somehow, use them for his glory and advancing the kingdom, that's a whole lot less pressure.

[\[00:46:41\]](#transcript-00-46-41-660) And it also makes sense when Jesus says, Come to me, all you who are heavy laden by the law.

[\[00:46:46\]](#transcript-00-46-46-661) Like you've tried to obey the law and it's not working.

[\[00:46:48\]](#transcript-00-46-48-662) And what does he say?

[\[00:46:49\]](#transcript-00-46-49-663) I will give you rest.

[\[00:46:50\]](#transcript-00-46-50-664) And then he goes, My yoke?

[\[00:46:52\]](#transcript-00-46-52-665) It's a whole lot easier because you're obeying from love, you're obeying from what you already have, and you're doing it as a reflection for others' benefits.

[\[00:47:01\]](#transcript-00-47-01-666) You're not doing it to try and keep or maintain that which can't be kept.

[\[00:47:07\]](#transcript-00-47-07-667) You guys have referenced Luther a lot.

[\[00:47:09\]](#transcript-00-47-09-668) Justin, I think I remember you telling me on a phone call, brother, that you actually have a lot of cachet with Lutherans.

[\[00:47:16\]](#transcript-00-47-16-669) Lutherans love some theocasts.

[\[00:47:18\]](#transcript-00-47-18-670) Theocasts.

[\[00:47:18\]](#transcript-00-47-18-671) We have good relationships with some confessional Lutherans.

[\[00:47:20\]](#transcript-00-47-20-672) Yeah.

[\[00:47:21\]](#transcript-00-47-21-673) Yeah.

[\[00:47:24\]](#transcript-00-47-24-674) I've also found that people who sort of, again, to use that word specialize or emphasize or focus on, they feel called to help people understand a more robust gospel, particularly in relation to assurance.

[\[00:47:37\]](#transcript-00-47-37-675) Yeah, uh, they are often accused of antinomianism, as Luther was.

[\[00:47:43\]](#transcript-00-47-43-676) And we are.

[\[00:47:44\]](#transcript-00-47-44-677) That's what I was going to ask.

[\[00:47:45\]](#transcript-00-47-45-678) So I'm sitting here listening to you talk about the use of the law.

[\[00:47:50\]](#transcript-00-47-50-679) I mean, every other word.

[\[00:47:52\]](#transcript-00-47-52-680) You're just like, the law, the law, the law.

[\[00:47:54\]](#transcript-00-47-54-681) Like, we have to hold the law.

[\[00:47:55\]](#transcript-00-47-55-682) We have to hold the law.

[\[00:47:56\]](#transcript-00-47-56-683) And yet, I'm pretty sure that you guys are accused of antinomianism.

[\[00:48:01\]](#transcript-00-48-01-684) Uh, what do you do with that?

[\[00:48:03\]](#transcript-00-48-03-685) You just like keep saying what, like, I'll just repeat myself again, like, well, if I know I'm assuming your podcast is like you want just blunt statements, so I just want the good statements exactly.

[\[00:48:15\]](#transcript-00-48-15-686) I think sometimes people don't give us the courtesy of listening to everything that we say, they'll take a sound bite of 30 seconds to a minute.

[\[00:48:22\]](#transcript-00-48-22-687) Yeah.

[\[00:48:23\]](#transcript-00-48-23-688) That doesn't sound like you know.

[\[00:48:25\]](#transcript-00-48-25-689) Christians wouldn't.

[\[00:48:26\]](#transcript-00-48-26-690) No, definitely recently someone took a sound bite of 30 seconds and said some stuff, and then someone sent it to us.

[\[00:48:32\]](#transcript-00-48-32-691) And I was like, you know, that's their discretion if that's what they want to do.

[\[00:48:34\]](#transcript-00-48-34-692) I think it's uncharitable.

[\[00:48:37\]](#transcript-00-48-37-693) Even our own book, our book that we have on rest, people the name of that book, yeah.

[\[00:48:42\]](#transcript-00-48-42-694) So it's 'Rest' Consideration of Faith versus Faithfulness.

[\[00:48:45\]](#transcript-00-48-45-695) It's free.

[\[00:48:45\]](#transcript-00-48-45-696) Go to our website and download it.

[\[00:48:47\]](#transcript-00-48-47-697) Or you could go to Amazon.

[\[00:48:49\]](#transcript-00-48-49-698) Or go to Amazon and buy it.

[\[00:48:50\]](#transcript-00-48-50-699) Yeah.

[\[00:48:50\]](#transcript-00-48-50-700) Okay.

[\[00:48:52\]](#transcript-00-48-52-701) But in there, you know, we are trying to, a lot of what we're talking about is just condensed and down a lot smaller form.

[\[00:48:58\]](#transcript-00-48-58-702) Yeah.

[\[00:48:59\]](#transcript-00-48-59-703) But we rewrote it.

[\[00:49:01\]](#transcript-00-49-01-704) We wrote our first edition.

[\[00:49:02\]](#transcript-00-49-02-705) We decided to kind of update a little bit and we put a chapter on there that's so what about obedience?

[\[00:49:07\]](#transcript-00-49-07-706) And I always chuckle because people get through the first half of the book, make their conclusion.

[\[00:49:12\]](#transcript-00-49-12-707) The last half of the book is dealing with, like, what does this look like in our faith now?

[\[00:49:16\]](#transcript-00-49-16-708) And I always chuckle because it's like somehow they just forget to get to the latter part of the book.

[\[00:49:21\]](#transcript-00-49-21-709) And there, when you talk like we are, you're going to get the same.

[\[00:49:27\]](#transcript-00-49-27-710) And I feel comfortable in this, you're going to get the same accusations that Paul does.

[\[00:49:31\]](#transcript-00-49-31-711) Paul's going five chapters just hardcore at you with the gospel.

[\[00:49:34\]](#transcript-00-49-34-712) And then he's like, all right, well, I know what you're thinking.

[\[00:49:37\]](#transcript-00-49-37-713) Why don't we just disobey so that grace can abound?

[\[00:49:40\]](#transcript-00-49-40-714) And he stops people from doing that, right?

[\[00:49:42\]](#transcript-00-49-42-715) And he goes into application.

[\[00:49:44\]](#transcript-00-49-44-716) Well, there's no, there's no way you're going to obey rightly if you don't understand the gospel rightly, right?

[\[00:49:50\]](#transcript-00-49-50-717) You're going to obey for the wrong reasons.

[\[00:49:51\]](#transcript-00-49-51-718) And it actually is damaging to you and to the gospel and to your faith.

[\[00:49:56\]](#transcript-00-49-56-719) And so Paul and the writers of the New Testament are very concerned that you get the gospel right and then you put obedience in.

[\[00:50:04\]](#transcript-00-50-04-720) I think that a confusion of the law of what it is and the gospel causes this.

[\[00:50:11\]](#transcript-00-50-11-721) So we are rightly explaining the gospel for what it is, and it makes people nervous because then, I'll tell you this right now: I am 100% anatinomian, and I will embrace that.

[\[00:50:24\]](#transcript-00-50-24-722) When it comes to my salvation, I can't do anything to be saved, right?

[\[00:50:29\]](#transcript-00-50-29-723) Ephesians 2:8, 9 makes that pretty clear, like 100% antinomian.

[\[00:50:33\]](#transcript-00-50-33-724) And so, if you're going to say you guys are antinomian, well, where is the accusation?

[\[00:50:38\]](#transcript-00-50-38-725) When it comes to my faith in Christ and my justification, I am an antinomian.

[\[00:50:43\]](#transcript-00-50-43-726) But when it comes to my post-salvation, right?

[\[00:50:46\]](#transcript-00-50-46-727) Like now I'm regenerate, I'm alive, and you're telling us that you now are an antinomian, I just think that's an unfair accusation because, first of all, we both hold to and very clearly teach that church discipline is for

[\[00:51:01\]](#transcript-00-51-01-728) the good of the church.

[\[00:51:02\]](#transcript-00-51-02-729) Well, you can't enact church discipline if there isn't a reason to obey, but the law changes for us, right?

[\[00:51:09\]](#transcript-00-51-09-730) Paul says that when those of us who are in Christ, we no longer have a fear of condemnation.

[\[00:51:14\]](#transcript-00-51-14-731) There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:51:17\]](#transcript-00-51-17-732) So, well, then what is the law for us now?

[\[00:51:19\]](#transcript-00-51-19-733) Well, the law becomes a wonderful guide.

[\[00:51:22\]](#transcript-00-51-22-734) Think of it this way.

[\[00:51:24\]](#transcript-00-51-24-735) Go back to the driving illustration.

[\[00:51:26\]](#transcript-00-51-26-736) We see the speed limit wherever it's at, and that speed limit is there because it helps remind us what is a safe way to live in life that's exactly how the law becomes for us it can it can't

[\[00:51:37\]](#transcript-00-51-37-737) it can't judge us it cannot condemn us but it is a good reminder that it's safe and good for us and for others that we obey in that way right, stop signs are good because it means I'm not

[\[00:51:47\]](#transcript-00-51-47-738) going to plow into someone.

[\[00:51:48\]](#transcript-00-51-48-739) So the law becomes that for us.

[\[00:51:50\]](#transcript-00-51-50-740) This is a good way to live, it reflects God's glory and it's good for neighbor.

[\[00:51:55\]](#transcript-00-51-55-741) So, but it cannot condemn you, it can't in Christ, in Christ, right?

[\[00:52:00\]](#transcript-00-52-00-742) So, but when you start, oh, disobeying the law, that's where church discipline comes in.

[\[00:52:04\]](#transcript-00-52-04-743) It's good for the brothers and sisters to come in and say, Hey, um, I'm going to confront you on this.

[\[00:52:09\]](#transcript-00-52-09-744) I don't think you understand that you are violating God's law.

[\[00:52:11\]](#transcript-00-52-11-745) That's not good for his glory, and that's not good for our church.

[\[00:52:15\]](#transcript-00-52-15-746) And we would encourage that.

[\[00:52:16\]](#transcript-00-52-16-747) I mean, Galatians 6:1, those who are trapped in sin, go to them and pull them out with a spirit of gentleness and meekness, right?

[\[00:52:22\]](#transcript-00-52-22-748) And so we preach all of the gospel, and we preach all of the law, but we never combine them.

[\[00:52:26\]](#transcript-00-52-26-749) And I'll give this illustration because I know you have some thoughts you want to say, or you might have another question.

[\[00:52:29\]](#transcript-00-52-29-750) But we, we, one of the things that we are very passionate about is law-gospel distinction.

[\[00:52:37\]](#transcript-00-52-37-751) The law is always do this, these commands.

[\[00:52:40\]](#transcript-00-52-40-752) And if you do them, you will have the title of righteous.

[\[00:52:43\]](#transcript-00-52-43-753) And therefore, if you're righteous completely, you will live forever.

[\[00:52:46\]](#transcript-00-52-46-754) The law is always do list of things to do.

[\[00:52:50\]](#transcript-00-52-50-755) The gospel is titled is news, right?

[\[00:52:54\]](#transcript-00-52-54-756) So news is either potential, no, news is always past.

[\[00:52:58\]](#transcript-00-52-58-757) And news is connected to a person.

[\[00:53:00\]](#transcript-00-53-00-758) So the gospel is the good news of what Jesus did in all of his life, right?

[\[00:53:05\]](#transcript-00-53-05-759) So, his birth, his life, his death, and resurrection.

[\[00:53:09\]](#transcript-00-53-09-760) So, the gospel is all about what has already been done.

[\[00:53:13\]](#transcript-00-53-13-761) You either believe it and have eternal life, or you obey the law and have eternal life, those are your only options.

[\[00:53:19\]](#transcript-00-53-19-762) And the whole Bible is broken down into these two categories.

[\[00:53:23\]](#transcript-00-53-23-763) Unfortunately, in modern-day context, the gospel is you repent, you do, you turn away from your sins, and you obey enough and have faith in Jesus, and you can have eternal life.

[\[00:53:36\]](#transcript-00-53-36-764) And that's where that collapsing happens.

[\[00:53:41\]](#transcript-00-53-41-765) And that's what we're trying to say.

[\[00:53:43\]](#transcript-00-53-43-766) We get called antinomians because we won't allow the law to be collapsed on the gospel.

[\[00:53:49\]](#transcript-00-53-49-767) The law has its place before salvation, and the law has its place after salvation, but never in the gospel.

[\[00:53:54\]](#transcript-00-53-54-768) That's why we get called antinomian.

[\[00:53:56\]](#transcript-00-53-56-769) Yeah, I mean, I think we so we did an entire episode, not, I don't know, in the last six months, nine months, why we're not antinomian.

[\[00:54:05\]](#transcript-00-54-05-770) The listeners could check it out and get the more long-form answer.

[\[00:54:08\]](#transcript-00-54-08-771) Yeah, I think we're longer than that.

[\[00:54:11\]](#transcript-00-54-11-772) For real, bro.

[\[00:54:12\]](#transcript-00-54-12-773) It was like 45 minutes.

[\[00:54:14\]](#transcript-00-54-14-774) Yeah.

[\[00:54:15\]](#transcript-00-54-15-775) You know, I mean, obviously, I mean, Paul was accused of being against Moses.

[\[00:54:19\]](#transcript-00-54-19-776) I mean, that's like he, right.

[\[00:54:22\]](#transcript-00-54-22-777) I mean, that's pretty clear.

[\[00:54:23\]](#transcript-00-54-23-778) And then, I mean, Luther, the reformers, same thing.

[\[00:54:27\]](#transcript-00-54-27-779) I mean, and then, you know, Lloyd Jones is famous for saying: if you're not accused of being an antinomian, you're probably not preaching the gospel.

[\[00:54:34\]](#transcript-00-54-34-780) I mean, all those That one hits.

[\[00:54:35\]](#transcript-00-54-35-781) It does.

[\[00:54:36\]](#transcript-00-54-36-782) I mean, so that's all legit.

[\[00:54:38\]](#transcript-00-54-38-783) That's fair.

[\[00:54:38\]](#transcript-00-54-38-784) So, in some senses, you, when you're called an antinomian, I think as Christians and as preachers of the God, of God's word, of the gospel.

[\[00:54:48\]](#transcript-00-54-48-785) I think we'd receive that with, like, yeah, hey, man, it's, yeah, I'm happy to, happy to take that shot.

[\[00:54:55\]](#transcript-00-54-55-786) Happy to be lumped in with all these others and yeah, receives.

[\[00:54:59\]](#transcript-00-54-59-787) Specifically, when it's you're talking about emphasis of the gospel, not because we've been caught in some atrocious sin.

[\[00:55:05\]](#transcript-00-55-05-788) Sure.

[\[00:55:05\]](#transcript-00-55-05-789) Right.

[\[00:55:06\]](#transcript-00-55-06-790) So that's all true.

[\[00:55:08\]](#transcript-00-55-08-791) I think the reason that we get called antinomian largely is because of what John said, because of our commitment to the distinction between the law and the gospel, and how we want to protect, because at least as we

[\[00:55:20\]](#transcript-00-55-20-792) understand the scriptures, you know, the law is a covenant of works, like, do this and live, right?

[\[00:55:25\]](#transcript-00-55-25-793) This is how Jesus speaks often in the Gospels to various audiences of people.

[\[00:55:30\]](#transcript-00-55-30-794) I mean, I'm thinking of, you know, you could think of the rich young man, or you could even think of the prelude to the parable of the Good Samaritan.

[\[00:55:37\]](#transcript-00-55-37-795) I mean, there's things there where, in various contexts, people will say, Teacher, what do I need to do in order to have eternal life?

[\[00:55:45\]](#transcript-00-55-45-796) And Jesus straight up says to the scribe in Luke 10, Well, what's in the law?

[\[00:55:49\]](#transcript-00-55-49-797) How do you read it?

[\[00:55:50\]](#transcript-00-55-50-798) And the scribe answers, you know, love, love God and love neighbor, basically.

[\[00:55:54\]](#transcript-00-55-54-799) And Jesus says, you've answered correctly.

[\[00:55:56\]](#transcript-00-55-56-800) Do this and you'll live.

[\[00:55:57\]](#transcript-00-55-57-801) Right.

[\[00:55:58\]](#transcript-00-55-58-802) And then, of course, that scribe seeking to justify himself, and we would ask, well, according to what?

[\[00:56:04\]](#transcript-00-56-04-803) According to the law, he asks, he begins to litigate, and asks, Well, who's my neighbor?

[\[00:56:08\]](#transcript-00-56-08-804) Right?

[\[00:56:08\]](#transcript-00-56-08-805) I mean, so even there, we see the law as a covenant of works: like, do this and you'll live.

[\[00:56:13\]](#transcript-00-56-13-806) Then you have the gospel, which we would refer to as effectively the covenant of grace, right?

[\[00:56:20\]](#transcript-00-56-20-807) Where it is given to sinners, we receive it by faith, and it's all completely wrapped up into what Jesus has done.

[\[00:56:27\]](#transcript-00-56-27-808) And so there is no sense in which those two categories of works, grace, law, gospel should be collapsed into each other.

[\[00:56:36\]](#transcript-00-56-36-809) And I think because we maintain that distinction so staunchly, we are often accused of being antinomian.

[\[00:56:44\]](#transcript-00-56-44-810) What I would say in response as to why we're not, two things we've mentioned already, so I'll be brief.

[\[00:56:50\]](#transcript-00-56-50-811) One, we'll see.

[\[00:56:52\]](#transcript-00-56-52-812) Watch me, brother.

[\[00:56:53\]](#transcript-00-56-53-813) Oh, God.

[\[00:56:53\]](#transcript-00-56-53-814) Watch me.

[\[00:56:54\]](#transcript-00-56-54-815) I like this guy.

[\[00:56:55\]](#transcript-00-56-55-816) Watch me.

[\[00:56:56\]](#transcript-00-56-56-817) One is we practice church discipline.

[\[00:57:00\]](#transcript-00-57-00-818) Two, we uphold what has historically been called the third use of the law.

[\[00:57:05\]](#transcript-00-57-05-819) The law is the guide, the law is the perfect rule of life.

[\[00:57:10\]](#transcript-00-57-10-820) And so, you just, for those who aren't used to the, can you just give the first, second, and third?

[\[00:57:14\]](#transcript-00-57-14-821) Sure.

[\[00:57:14\]](#transcript-00-57-14-822) So, it depends on which tradition you're talking about.

[\[00:57:16\]](#transcript-00-57-16-823) So, like, Lutherans would number this differently than Reformed folk would.

[\[00:57:20\]](#transcript-00-57-20-824) So, for us, the first use of the law, and again, I want to be really clear here.

[\[00:57:24\]](#transcript-00-57-24-825) This is like anything else.

[\[00:57:26\]](#transcript-00-57-26-826) We're grasping at the leash of language to try to describe these things.

[\[00:57:30\]](#transcript-00-57-30-827) And these categories can, they're not just perfect.

[\[00:57:33\]](#transcript-00-57-33-828) They're like, oh once you have these three uses everything just fits neatly in a category and it that's not what we're trying to say but they are kind of like civil ceremonial sure also that stuff yeah that kind

[\[00:57:42\]](#transcript-00-57-42-829) of fits people trying to categorize things that are really pretty interconnected.

[\[00:57:47\]](#transcript-00-57-47-830) Sure.

[\[00:57:47\]](#transcript-00-57-47-831) Yeah.

[\[00:57:47\]](#transcript-00-57-47-832) But I do think these are helpful.

[\[00:57:49\]](#transcript-00-57-49-833) So, historically, the first use in the Reformed tradition is the law as a mirror, right?

[\[00:57:54\]](#transcript-00-57-54-834) That it's given first and foremost to show us our sin and then drive us to Christ.

[\[00:58:00\]](#transcript-00-58-00-835) And so this is like Romans 3:19 and 20.

[\[00:58:04\]](#transcript-00-58-04-836) You know, the law holds everyone accountable.

[\[00:58:06\]](#transcript-00-58-06-837) It shuts everybody's mouth.

[\[00:58:07\]](#transcript-00-58-07-838) By works of the law, no flesh will ever be justified, since through the law comes knowledge of sin, or the law was given to increase the trespass of Adam, right?

[\[00:58:16\]](#transcript-00-58-16-839) Romans 5:20.

[\[00:58:17\]](#transcript-00-58-17-840) Like when in the aftermath of sin, when the law was given, it didn't make things better, actually made it worse.

[\[00:58:23\]](#transcript-00-58-23-841) Right?

[\[00:58:23\]](#transcript-00-58-23-842) Romans 7:13, you know, so that sin would be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

[\[00:58:30\]](#transcript-00-58-30-843) Or Galatians 3:19, the law was given because of transgression until the promised offspring of Abraham would come.

[\[00:58:36\]](#transcript-00-58-36-844) That's first use.

[\[00:58:37\]](#transcript-00-58-37-845) Second use is kind of civil.

[\[00:58:39\]](#transcript-00-58-39-846) It's broad.

[\[00:58:40\]](#transcript-00-58-40-847) It's to restrain human corruption.

[\[00:58:42\]](#transcript-00-58-42-848) God prohibits evil in the law.

[\[00:58:45\]](#transcript-00-58-45-849) Third use in Christ to the Christian is as the perfect rule of life or to guide our living.

[\[00:58:50\]](#transcript-00-58-50-850) And so, this is where we would say that that third use piece, what makes it unique, is that the law in that regard is not condemnatory with respect to our standing.

[\[00:58:59\]](#transcript-00-58-59-851) It is not threatening with respect to our standing, yet it guides our living.

[\[00:59:03\]](#transcript-00-59-03-852) And we pursue conformity unto it by the Spirit in union with Christ.

[\[00:59:08\]](#transcript-00-59-08-853) And so, that third use of the law part, to be an antinomian, historically speaking, you would need to deny that.

[\[00:59:15\]](#transcript-00-59-15-854) And I'm happy to say this right now.

[\[00:59:16\]](#transcript-00-59-16-855) I mean, because this may be helpful to the listener.

[\[00:59:18\]](#transcript-00-59-18-856) So, I mean, even it's fine to name names here.

[\[00:59:21\]](#transcript-00-59-21-857) Oh, yes.

[\[00:59:22\]](#transcript-00-59-22-858) I assume this.

[\[00:59:24\]](#transcript-00-59-24-859) So, even

[\[00:59:26\]](#transcript-00-59-26-860) take an individual like Tullian Shavijin.

[\[00:59:28\]](#transcript-00-59-28-861) So, he was really good on the first use of the law and justification, really good.

[\[00:59:33\]](#transcript-00-59-33-862) But, where he would be different than us is that he would deny the third use of the law.

[\[00:59:39\]](#transcript-00-59-39-863) So, one is not like the other.

[\[00:59:41\]](#transcript-00-59-41-864) That would be the way that I would begin to respond.

[\[00:59:45\]](#transcript-00-59-45-865) Yeah, because obedience, any type of, and I understand the sentiment, like any, there's a repulse against any kind of obedience when it says there's no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:59:57\]](#transcript-00-59-57-866) But if you're a new, how do you know if you're in Christ Jesus if you're not walking in obedience?

[\[01:00:03\]](#transcript-01-00-03-867) Yeah, well, and I would say that, and that's a good question, and we could definitely go there.

[\[01:00:11\]](#transcript-01-00-11-868) So, like, first, uh, John in the Gospels says, I write.

[\[01:00:14\]](#transcript-01-00-14-869) So, are you now speaking to that question, or are you saying what you were going to say?

[\[01:00:16\]](#transcript-01-00-16-870) I'm going to in a very, very roundabout way.

[\[01:00:19\]](#transcript-01-00-19-871) Okay.

[\[01:00:19\]](#transcript-01-00-19-872) So, Jon, and John says in his Gospel in chapter 20, he says, I write these things that you might believe, and then believing, knowing you have eternal life.

[\[01:00:27\]](#transcript-01-00-27-873) So, he says, Learn the life of Jesus.

[\[01:00:30\]](#transcript-01-00-30-874) And when you do, you have eternal life.

[\[01:00:33\]](#transcript-01-00-33-875) So, I would say that everywhere in scripture, when we're talking about assurance, am I saved?

[\[01:00:42\]](#transcript-01-00-42-876) It is always pointed to the object of our faith: is Jesus sufficient to do what He promises.

[\[01:00:48\]](#transcript-01-00-48-877) And if you believe that he is, he goes, you've been saved.

[\[01:00:51\]](#transcript-01-00-51-878) You have assurance, right?

[\[01:00:53\]](#transcript-01-00-53-879) We have put faith as the object of our assurance.

[\[01:00:57\]](#transcript-01-00-57-880) And when you do that, faith rather than the finished work of Christ.

[\[01:01:01\]](#transcript-01-01-01-881) Rather than the person, yeah.

[\[01:01:02\]](#transcript-01-01-02-882) You have faith in your faith, or it's like it's the strength of the faith, the quality of the faith, the sincerity of the faith that is the emphasis, not the object of faith.

[\[01:01:10\]](#transcript-01-01-10-883) That's right.

[\[01:01:11\]](#transcript-01-01-11-884) So you have to like, I love using this illustration.

[\[01:01:15\]](#transcript-01-01-15-885) Um, are you afraid to fly in a plane?

[\[01:01:18\]](#transcript-01-01-18-886) Okay, have you ever been near someone that is?

[\[01:01:20\]](#transcript-01-01-20-887) Like, you see them on the plane, they're super, super nervous, right?

[\[01:01:23\]](#transcript-01-01-23-888) So, you're sitting there, you go from point A to point B, the same person next to you, point A to point B, but the entire time they are in utter terror and fear.

[\[01:01:31\]](#transcript-01-01-31-889) Were they transported less safely than you?

[\[01:01:35\]](#transcript-01-01-35-890) Yeah, no, no, right?

[\[01:01:37\]](#transcript-01-01-37-891) Their experience may have been different than yours, but they got there the same way.

[\[01:01:42\]](#transcript-01-01-42-892) Why?

[\[01:01:42\]](#transcript-01-01-42-893) Because they had less trust in the means, right?

[\[01:01:45\]](#transcript-01-01-45-894) They were less secure of whether they could be there or not.

[\[01:01:48\]](#transcript-01-01-48-895) So, when we talk about faith in an object, the object is the security of our salvation.

[\[01:01:55\]](#transcript-01-01-55-896) It is never our faith, right?

[\[01:01:57\]](#transcript-01-01-57-897) The faith is the evidence that we have been saved, but the faith is not the security of our faith.

[\[01:02:04\]](#transcript-01-02-04-898) This is what is so important because at times we think somehow that it's the faith that saves us.

[\[01:02:10\]](#transcript-01-02-10-899) Jesus is the one who saves you.

[\[01:02:12\]](#transcript-01-02-12-900) You trust in me?

[\[01:02:13\]](#transcript-01-02-13-901) I mean, you understand?

[\[01:02:14\]](#transcript-01-02-14-902) Like, it's like whether I believe in a plane has the capacity to take me to point A to point B, it doesn't really matter.

[\[01:02:20\]](#transcript-01-02-20-903) It only matters if the plane actually has the capacity.

[\[01:02:23\]](#transcript-01-02-23-904) So, if Jesus has the capacity to save me, the evidence that I am in Jesus is my faith, right?

[\[01:02:31\]](#transcript-01-02-31-905) Then what we learn is that our good works become the additive, or what he would say, a helpful way of adding to our faith.

[\[01:02:40\]](#transcript-01-02-40-906) This is why, even in 1 Peter, when he talks about his divine power, he has granted to you everything you need for life and godliness, right?

[\[01:02:45\]](#transcript-01-02-45-907) Or this is 2 Peter, sorry.

[\[01:02:47\]](#transcript-01-02-47-908) And then he says, Now take to that faith and add these works.

[\[01:02:51\]](#transcript-01-02-51-909) Remember this?

[\[01:02:52\]](#transcript-01-02-52-910) Right.

[\[01:02:52\]](#transcript-01-02-52-911) And so you add all these things to it.

[\[01:02:54\]](#transcript-01-02-54-912) Well, you're adding to them because you've already been grounded and safe.

[\[01:02:58\]](#transcript-01-02-58-913) And our confession and the confessions speak about assurance in this way: in that the ground of our assurance, the way that we absolutely know without a doubt that we are in Christ, and we're safe, it's always our faith,

[\[01:03:09\]](#transcript-01-03-09-914) and our good works can be bolstering and add to that.

[\[01:03:13\]](#transcript-01-03-13-915) So, there's nothing as a matter of fact, I would encourage people to look at their goods and good works and say, Wow, look what God is doing in our life.

[\[01:03:20\]](#transcript-01-03-20-916) But if you make if you reverse it and the good works become your assurance, I have one question for you: how many good works do you need to fully find assurance?

[\[01:03:31\]](#transcript-01-03-31-917) Right, and there's no question in the Bible in that.

[\[01:03:34\]](#transcript-01-03-34-918) The Bible does say you can have complete assurance by faith alone.

[\[01:03:38\]](#transcript-01-03-38-919) So I'll say a few things here, too.

[\[01:03:42\]](#transcript-01-03-42-920) Like obedience, how do you know you're in Christ?

[\[01:03:45\]](#transcript-01-03-45-921) That's effectively kind of how you said it.

[\[01:03:48\]](#transcript-01-03-48-922) So, and I'll talk about it specifically related to works and obedience.

[\[01:03:54\]](#transcript-01-03-54-923) Here's how things often are posited.

[\[01:03:58\]](#transcript-01-03-58-924) We'll make a few statements that are true, and then we'll draw a conclusion that isn't, at least from our vantage point.

[\[01:04:05\]](#transcript-01-04-05-925) So we will rightly say that all those who are justified will do good works.

[\[01:04:11\]](#transcript-01-04-11-926) True.

[\[01:04:13\]](#transcript-01-04-13-927) If there are no good works, you're not justified.

[\[01:04:16\]](#transcript-01-04-16-928) True.

[\[01:04:17\]](#transcript-01-04-17-929) Then the conclusion often is: therefore, do good works to know you're justified.

[\[01:04:23\]](#transcript-01-04-23-930) That's where we would push back.

[\[01:04:25\]](#transcript-01-04-25-931) And I guess it's fundamental.

[\[01:04:27\]](#transcript-01-04-27-932) When you use the word no, you mean it in a sort of infallible, unshakable sense.

[\[01:04:33\]](#transcript-01-04-33-933) More in an assurative sense.

[\[01:04:34\]](#transcript-01-04-34-934) Like an assurance kind of sense, right?

[\[01:04:36\]](#transcript-01-04-36-935) Like, how do I know

[\[01:04:40\]](#transcript-01-04-40-936) from the perspective of assurance?

[\[01:04:41\]](#transcript-01-04-41-937) How can I be assured that I have peace with God?

[\[01:04:45\]](#transcript-01-04-45-938) And we would say, like with our confession, and Sean, I think you're going to agree with this, rightly, our good works and the fruit that is born bolsters our assurance.

[\[01:04:55\]](#transcript-01-04-55-939) It obviously is of great encouragement, not only sometimes to ourselves as we are aware of it in a way, but it's an encouragement to the saints.

[\[01:05:03\]](#transcript-01-05-03-940) It's helpful to the body of Christ.

[\[01:05:05\]](#transcript-01-05-05-941) Others might identify these things in our lives and say, bro, like super encouraged by the way that I see evidence of God's grace in your life, or super encouraged by the ways that I'm seeing you do this, or

[\[01:05:14\]](#transcript-01-05-14-942) the way your life has changed.

[\[01:05:16\]](#transcript-01-05-16-943) Like, we should be encouraged by that, and we should, in the church, encourage others as we see these things.

[\[01:05:20\]](#transcript-01-05-20-944) And Paul even writes that way: I'm encouraged by what I'm seeing.

[\[01:05:23\]](#transcript-01-05-23-945) Totally.

[\[01:05:24\]](#transcript-01-05-24-946) So, it's not that obedience or good works or fruit are not bolstering our assurance.

[\[01:05:31\]](#transcript-01-05-31-947) The thing that we want to drive a stake in the ground and say, good works or obedience can never be the ground of our assurance.

[\[01:05:38\]](#transcript-01-05-38-948) I guess I'm thinking about scriptures, you probably are.

[\[01:05:41\]](#transcript-01-05-41-949) It's Jesus for us that is.

[\[01:05:43\]](#transcript-01-05-43-950) Okay.

[\[01:05:44\]](#transcript-01-05-44-951) It seems like you want fruits.

[\[01:05:47\]](#transcript-01-05-47-952) Well, I'll just speak in terms of fruits, but that's a pretty wide open category.

[\[01:05:50\]](#transcript-01-05-50-953) Good works.

[\[01:05:51\]](#transcript-01-05-51-954) You want it to cut in one direction, in a positive direction, as a source of like strengthening assurance.

[\[01:05:57\]](#transcript-01-05-57-955) But it seems like you don't want examination of fruits to cut in the other direction to maybe remove any sort of assurance.

[\[01:06:06\]](#transcript-01-06-06-956) And I'm thinking about, again, going back to 1 John, thinking about James and the way he specifically is like, listen, if you don't have these works, then you probably deceived.

[\[01:06:17\]](#transcript-01-06-17-957) You don't have the faith that you think you have.

[\[01:06:19\]](#transcript-01-06-19-958) I know this is tough, there's a tension here.

[\[01:06:22\]](#transcript-01-06-22-959) You're trying to say both and you're trying to hold two things in tension.

[\[01:06:26\]](#transcript-01-06-26-960) But from my perspective, what you're saying sounds very Lutheran.

[\[01:06:30\]](#transcript-01-06-30-961) And I think the Lutherans take it a little too far in that they basically say, like, you should never look at your fruit and ever let that in any way lead you to examine or even doubt your salvation.

[\[01:06:45\]](#transcript-01-06-45-962) Thoughts?

[\[01:06:47\]](#transcript-01-06-47-963) How long can someone sin doing bad fruits until they you would say they're no longer a believer?

[\[01:06:56\]](#transcript-01-06-56-964) Is that a that's not a rhetorical question?

[\[01:06:58\]](#transcript-01-06-58-965) No, yeah, I don't think that's, I probably would just disagree with the way the question was stated, but I'm assuming you're trying to be provocative.

[\[01:07:04\]](#transcript-01-07-04-966) Oh, 100%.

[\[01:07:05\]](#transcript-01-07-05-967) Yeah.

[\[01:07:05\]](#transcript-01-07-05-968) But there's something to think about: like, how long was David in sin?

[\[01:07:09\]](#transcript-01-07-09-969) We think a few hours, but no, it was a long time before Nathan the prophet came to him and said, Let me tell you a story.

[\[01:07:15\]](#transcript-01-07-15-970) Yeah, you are the man, right?

[\[01:07:17\]](#transcript-01-07-17-971) David was in sin for a long time before he came to repentant.

[\[01:07:20\]](#transcript-01-07-20-972) You think about the church of Corinth, and Paul's like, All right, I've got to write to you not only the first time, but now, the second time, you think about even the last verse of James.

[\[01:07:29\]](#transcript-01-07-29-973) James gives an indication that there are people who are so far in disobedience that God's about to take their life.

[\[01:07:35\]](#transcript-01-07-35-974) Like that, like Ananias and Safari.

[\[01:07:37\]](#transcript-01-07-37-975) He goes, and if you can get them to repent, at least keep them from dying.

[\[01:07:40\]](#transcript-01-07-40-976) So, there is an indication in the New Testament.

[\[01:07:44\]](#transcript-01-07-44-977) Um, I like this one as well: first Peter chapter, I'm sorry, Ephesians 4 talks about if you don't want to be trapped, tossed about, and every wind of doctrine, or deceived, then you need to implement these things in

[\[01:07:56\]](#transcript-01-07-56-978) your life, which means you can have all of that to be true, right?

[\[01:08:00\]](#transcript-01-08-00-979) Galatians 6:1, those who are trapped in sin, it doesn't say how long they've been trapped in sin, we don't know how long those people were trapped in sin, but we know that they were.

[\[01:08:08\]](#transcript-01-08-08-980) So there's an indication that Christians can and will struggle with sin, right?

[\[01:08:12\]](#transcript-01-08-12-981) First John even says this: if you say you're not struggling with sin, you're a liar and the truth is not in you.

[\[01:08:17\]](#transcript-01-08-17-982) So, how many times and how often can someone struggle with sin, according to 1 John?

[\[01:08:21\]](#transcript-01-08-21-983) He doesn't tell us that.

[\[01:08:22\]](#transcript-01-08-22-984) How many times can you repent?

[\[01:08:23\]](#transcript-01-08-23-985) He doesn't tell us that either, right?

[\[01:08:25\]](#transcript-01-08-25-986) So, there's an indication that someone can be weak and immature in the faith, and they could be weak and immature for a very, very long time.

[\[01:08:33\]](#transcript-01-08-33-987) There's even a rebuke in Revelation that talks about this.

[\[01:08:35\]](#transcript-01-08-35-988) So I'm very cautious, and I stand back and look at all of scripture and say there are warning passages, but there are also indications that Christians can struggle, right?

[\[01:08:47\]](#transcript-01-08-47-989) The harshest passages are given in 1 John towards people who are outright rejecting the gospel, right?

[\[01:08:55\]](#transcript-01-08-55-990) For instance, um, John says, if you say you have love for God and not love for one another, which is a rejection, he's like, which is a rejection of the law.

[\[01:09:04\]](#transcript-01-09-04-991) I don't interrupt you, yeah.

[\[01:09:05\]](#transcript-01-09-05-992) He's like, then you don't have the truth in you, like, you are not agreeing with God on God's standards.

[\[01:09:12\]](#transcript-01-09-12-993) But for someone to struggle with sin is normal.

[\[01:09:17\]](#transcript-01-09-17-994) Now, what about looking at fruit as far as like on the negative side, right?

[\[01:09:26\]](#transcript-01-09-26-995) It's interesting in that when someone is in disobedience in the New Testament, I'll give you an example as with James.

[\[01:09:33\]](#transcript-01-09-33-996) So I preach to James, and the problem I struggle with James and how people approach his letter is they don't allow all of James to inform them.

[\[01:09:43\]](#transcript-01-09-43-997) Over nine times, he goes through these sections, he says, brothers, and then he tells them what he wants them to hear.

[\[01:09:49\]](#transcript-01-09-49-998) Brothers.

[\[01:09:50\]](#transcript-01-09-50-999) Then he tells them what's going to hear, brothers.

[\[01:09:52\]](#transcript-01-09-52-1000) He is never questioning their salvation.

[\[01:09:55\]](#transcript-01-09-55-1001) He is saying, your actions aren't matching your words, and therefore, your justification of your words, you need to rethink what you're saying.

[\[01:10:04\]](#transcript-01-10-04-1002) He's not calling into question their faith.

[\[01:10:06\]](#transcript-01-10-06-1003) He's like, you need to look at yourself like I'm seeing you.

[\[01:10:09\]](#transcript-01-10-09-1004) The way you're acting doesn't match your mouth.

[\[01:10:12\]](#transcript-01-10-12-1005) Therefore, the justification of your words is not true.

[\[01:10:15\]](#transcript-01-10-15-1006) So he's constantly affirming who they are.

[\[01:10:18\]](#transcript-01-10-18-1007) Peter does the same thing.

[\[01:10:20\]](#transcript-01-10-20-1008) And he's calling into question their actions, saying, you are not living a life that is beneficial.

[\[01:10:27\]](#transcript-01-10-27-1009) The strongest warnings are always when someone is not agreeing with God about their sin and they're saying it is okay to live in opposition to God, and therefore I can be a Christian and live in opposition to God

[\[01:10:40\]](#transcript-01-10-40-1010) openly and defiantly.

[\[01:10:43\]](#transcript-01-10-43-1011) And at that point, then, yeah, you should see that is bad fruit.

[\[01:10:48\]](#transcript-01-10-48-1012) And we would agree that you really need to examine your salvation because at that moment you can't versus someone who was struggling, trapped, caught, wandering.

[\[01:10:58\]](#transcript-01-10-58-1013) It's very, you can.

[\[01:10:59\]](#transcript-01-10-59-1014) I mean, even Peter talks, or Paul talks about Demas, who kind of wandered off from the faith because of his present, right?

[\[01:11:04\]](#transcript-01-11-04-1015) And who brings it back later on?

[\[01:11:06\]](#transcript-01-11-06-1016) Barnabas is the one who brings demons back, right?

[\[01:11:08\]](#transcript-01-11-08-1017) So you have this idea that people can wander from the faith and that it's our responsibility to either bring them back or to disciple them.

[\[01:11:17\]](#transcript-01-11-17-1018) But if they're unwilling to repent of that sin and see that it's an opposition to God, then it's at that point I would say, Yeah, that's bad faith.

[\[01:11:23\]](#transcript-01-11-23-1019) You need to examine yourself, and you're not of the faith.

[\[01:11:26\]](#transcript-01-11-26-1020) A few thoughts.

[\[01:11:27\]](#transcript-01-11-27-1021) One on church discipline.

[\[01:11:30\]](#transcript-01-11-30-1022) And Sean, I, you know, given that you and I both have like nine marks connections, relationships, DNA, both have been on, you know, done the internship, been on staff at Capitol Hill, all the things.

[\[01:11:43\]](#transcript-01-11-43-1023) You know, even as we, and it's good to always acknowledge that even within certain groups of Christians or pastors or whatever, it's not monolithic in how we all understand things.

[\[01:11:53\]](#transcript-01-11-53-1024) So, even for myself, and I'd be interested to hear how you think about this.

[\[01:11:58\]](#transcript-01-11-58-1025) And then I want to touch on 1 John in a minute, but right now, church discipline.

[\[01:12:03\]](#transcript-01-12-03-1026) So, even when it comes to the most severe level of church censure, which is excommunication, I think a good question to ask ourselves is: what are we saying and what are we not saying?

[\[01:12:16\]](#transcript-01-12-16-1027) We all, of course, are going to acknowledge that none of us are God and none of us can see the human heart, and that ultimately, you know, the Lord is the only one who knows whether or not this

[\[01:12:27\]](#transcript-01-12-27-1028) person is a Christian.

[\[01:12:28\]](#transcript-01-12-28-1029) Everybody acknowledges that.

[\[01:12:30\]](#transcript-01-12-30-1030) I think the way that we talk in our local church as pastors, about even excommunication, we will say that when we do excommunicate someone, which we have done at multiple points in our church's brief-ish life, we are not

[\[01:12:45\]](#transcript-01-12-45-1031) saying with certainty that this person isn't a believer.

[\[01:12:48\]](#transcript-01-12-48-1032) What we are saying is that this person is in hard-hearted, obstinate, unrepentant sin that is incredibly dangerous for him or her.

[\[01:12:58\]](#transcript-01-12-58-1033) And we are barring them from the fellowship and not admitting them to the table.

[\[01:13:02\]](#transcript-01-13-02-1034) Because we no longer have confidence.

[\[01:13:04\]](#transcript-01-13-04-1035) Well, so that, I mean, even the emphasis of 1 Corinthians 5, so that they might be restored.

[\[01:13:08\]](#transcript-01-13-08-1036) That's right.

[\[01:13:08\]](#transcript-01-13-08-1037) One.

[\[01:13:09\]](#transcript-01-13-09-1038) And then, two, what we're saying is their life is being lived in such a way where they are outside of the bounds.

[\[01:13:18\]](#transcript-01-13-18-1039) Would you agree with that statement?

[\[01:13:19\]](#transcript-01-13-19-1040) As a church, you're saying we no longer have confidence.

[\[01:13:22\]](#transcript-01-13-22-1041) You're not declaring that they're an unbeliever, you don't have the authority to do that.

[\[01:13:26\]](#transcript-01-13-26-1042) Of course.

[\[01:13:26\]](#transcript-01-13-26-1043) But would you say, as a church, you know, when we received you into membership, we gave you the team jersey, we were expressing a semblance of confidence in your confession of faith.

[\[01:13:34\]](#transcript-01-13-34-1044) When we remove you from the table and remove you from membership, we're just saying we just aren't confident that your confession is in line with the gospel.

[\[01:13:41\]](#transcript-01-13-41-1045) Sure.

[\[01:13:41\]](#transcript-01-13-41-1046) So, and I know that that illustration is used, and like Jonathan Lehman uses that illustration.

[\[01:13:50\]](#transcript-01-13-50-1047) I don't use that illustration the same way.

[\[01:13:52\]](#transcript-01-13-52-1048) So, this is where there might be a little bit of disagreement.

[\[01:13:54\]](#transcript-01-13-54-1049) And that's fine.

[\[01:13:55\]](#transcript-01-13-55-1050) So, like, I would not use the same language that you might.

[\[01:13:58\]](#transcript-01-13-58-1051) This is why I brought it up because I know enough of our, of where we hail from and how we agree on church discipline and how we might articulate things differently, which is getting at the question you're asking

[\[01:14:10\]](#transcript-01-14-10-1052) us.

[\[01:14:11\]](#transcript-01-14-11-1053) So, yeah, I don't, we would not use the same kind of language of we're putting the jersey on you and then we're taking the jersey back, the way that we would phrase it is: we are not certain that

[\[01:14:21\]](#transcript-01-14-21-1054) this person's an unbeliever, but we are certain that there is clear, demonstrable, unrepentant sin.

[\[01:14:27\]](#transcript-01-14-27-1055) That if, like, if this, if this remains the case.

[\[01:14:31\]](#transcript-01-14-31-1056) Well, I wouldn't use the word certain either, just to be clear.

[\[01:14:33\]](#transcript-01-14-33-1057) Yeah, confident is the word certain, yeah.

[\[01:14:35\]](#transcript-01-14-35-1058) Yeah, totally.

[\[01:14:35\]](#transcript-01-14-35-1059) Big difference.

[\[01:14:36\]](#transcript-01-14-36-1060) Totally, brother.

[\[01:14:36\]](#transcript-01-14-36-1061) Yeah.

[\[01:14:37\]](#transcript-01-14-37-1062) So, but we just don't, we just don't speak about, we don't use the language that we can, we are no longer confident in this person's confession or confession of faith.

[\[01:14:46\]](#transcript-01-14-46-1063) We just don't use that.

[\[01:14:47\]](#transcript-01-14-47-1064) We say, what we, this person professes faith in Christ, and this person is living in a way contrary to that profession.

[\[01:14:55\]](#transcript-01-14-55-1065) And they are you would not, therefore, say we have lower confidence, less confidence?

[\[01:15:00\]](#transcript-01-15-00-1066) I think because we so would maybe acknowledging what I already have said, because we don't know their heart, what we're going to major on is what is clear.

[\[01:15:10\]](#transcript-01-15-10-1067) Yeah.

[\[01:15:10\]](#transcript-01-15-10-1068) And we're going to major on the emphasis, particularly of 1 Corinthians 5, that this removal is what needs to be done for the sake of this person so that he or she might be restored, you know, in the

[\[01:15:23\]](#transcript-01-15-23-1069) day of the Lord's return.

[\[01:15:24\]](#transcript-01-15-24-1070) Paul talks about turning them over to Satan to have his way so that they might be restored.

[\[01:15:27\]](#transcript-01-15-27-1071) Right.

[\[01:15:29\]](#transcript-01-15-29-1072) But you guys are big on saying, like, hey, we need to interpret the whole Bible's language on this.

[\[01:15:33\]](#transcript-01-15-33-1073) Matthew 18, right, treat them like a Gentile or a tax collector.

[\[01:15:38\]](#transcript-01-15-38-1074) Yeah, sure.

[\[01:15:38\]](#transcript-01-15-38-1075) Right.

[\[01:15:40\]](#transcript-01-15-40-1076) that's, I think, in the realm of less confident.

[\[01:15:43\]](#transcript-01-15-43-1077) Somebody who needs to be, treat them like someone who needs to be converted.

[\[01:15:46\]](#transcript-01-15-46-1078) Right.

[\[01:15:46\]](#transcript-01-15-46-1079) Well, yeah, you would be, and mainly what you're doing is you're calling, that's where we would go back to you're preaching, you're you are effectively applying the law to them in that way to crush and to humble.

[\[01:15:57\]](#transcript-01-15-57-1080) Yeah, uh, so I do think that's legitimate in terms of how we would then interact with them, yeah.

[\[01:16:01\]](#transcript-01-16-01-1081) But even in that context, it's just so this is important.

[\[01:16:04\]](#transcript-01-16-04-1082) Um, so, like, one of the first steps that we're going to do if someone's in an unrepentant sin is to remove them from the table.

[\[01:16:13\]](#transcript-01-16-13-1083) Like, hey, you can't come and get communion knowing you're in defiant sin.

[\[01:16:18\]](#transcript-01-16-18-1084) We're not going to welcome you to the Lord's table.

[\[01:16:20\]](#transcript-01-16-20-1085) And this is not an official act of the church.

[\[01:16:22\]](#transcript-01-16-22-1086) This is just you.

[\[01:16:24\]](#transcript-01-16-24-1087) This is an official act of the church.

[\[01:16:24\]](#transcript-01-16-24-1088) That's the first step.

[\[01:16:26\]](#transcript-01-16-26-1089) Well, and not the first.

[\[01:16:27\]](#transcript-01-16-27-1090) I'm just saying there's always to confront them and call them to research.

[\[01:16:32\]](#transcript-01-16-32-1091) And even admonish and admonish.

[\[01:16:33\]](#transcript-01-16-33-1092) But there's a time before the church would officially vote to excommunicate the member where you would call them to not participate.

[\[01:16:40\]](#transcript-01-16-40-1093) So separately.

[\[01:16:40\]](#transcript-01-16-40-1094) And that's just like even, I mean, we've read polity, you know, the Baptist stuff.

[\[01:16:45\]](#transcript-01-16-45-1095) And then so if you look at some of the older Baptist documents, and then if you look as well, in like, you know, the PCA's Book of Church Order, et cetera., the, the three tiers of censure, of admonishment,

[\[01:16:55\]](#transcript-01-16-55-1096) suspension from the table, and excommunication that we would kind of be in that camp.

[\[01:17:00\]](#transcript-01-17-00-1097) I just so ardently disagree with that.

[\[01:17:02\]](#transcript-01-17-02-1098) That's fine, brother.

[\[01:17:02\]](#transcript-01-17-02-1099) And that's fine.

[\[01:17:03\]](#transcript-01-17-03-1100) And that's not meant to be a jabbed, you guys.

[\[01:17:06\]](#transcript-01-17-06-1101) No, I mean, that's fine.

[\[01:17:07\]](#transcript-01-17-07-1102) I think there's freedom in how this is applied.

[\[01:17:09\]](#transcript-01-17-09-1103) I'm just walking it.

[\[01:17:10\]](#transcript-01-17-10-1104) So, like, there's a sorry, it's actually interesting that I disagree with you guys about that, but I because I think I disagree with it for reasons that feel more in line with you guys and the way you think

[\[01:17:21\]](#transcript-01-17-21-1105) about this stuff.

[\[01:17:22\]](#transcript-01-17-22-1106) Maybe so.

[\[01:17:22\]](#transcript-01-17-22-1107) Because I'm so like, listen, the supper is a means of grace that God has given us to draw us to repentance and draw us to Himself.

[\[01:17:32\]](#transcript-01-17-32-1108) And unless the church has officially excommunioned you, officially removed you from the table, I just don't see any reason in scripture to remove that means of grace from someone as long as we're still trying to bring them back

[\[01:17:44\]](#transcript-01-17-44-1109) to repentance.

[\[01:17:45\]](#transcript-01-17-45-1110) So, to me, removing someone before the church has officially excommunicated them, removing them from the table, is actually working at cross-purposes with God's means of grace.

[\[01:17:54\]](#transcript-01-17-54-1111) Yeah, I mean, we can have that conversation if we want to.

[\[01:17:56\]](#transcript-01-17-56-1112) I think that's what I mean, dude.

[\[01:17:57\]](#transcript-01-17-57-1113) How long?

[\[01:17:58\]](#transcript-01-17-58-1114) I mean, like, you finished your first question, and I think we should.

[\[01:18:02\]](#transcript-01-18-02-1115) I still want to see the first John.

[\[01:18:03\]](#transcript-01-18-03-1116) It's something.

[\[01:18:04\]](#transcript-01-18-04-1117) So, I think that So, Jesus and the New Testament authors are protecting the fidelity and the unity of the church.

[\[01:18:12\]](#transcript-01-18-12-1118) So, sin, like when Paul says to in Ephesians, he says, grieve not the Holy Spirit, right?

[\[01:18:18\]](#transcript-01-18-18-1119) We think that's personal sin.

[\[01:18:20\]](#transcript-01-18-20-1120) That is sin in the church.

[\[01:18:21\]](#transcript-01-18-21-1121) He's like, the spirit brings unity.

[\[01:18:23\]](#transcript-01-18-23-1122) When you sin, it grieves his work and it causes diversity.

[\[01:18:26\]](#transcript-01-18-26-1123) Disunity in the church and division and anger in the body.

[\[01:18:28\]](#transcript-01-18-28-1124) So, etc.

[\[01:18:29\]](#transcript-01-18-29-1125) What happens when you have unrepentant sinners who are unwilling to change?

[\[01:18:33\]](#transcript-01-18-33-1126) They are going to bring conflict into the church that is contrary to its work, right?

[\[01:18:38\]](#transcript-01-18-38-1127) We are to live sacrificial, repentive lives for the sake of the unity of the church.

[\[01:18:43\]](#transcript-01-18-43-1128) So Jesus says you have to put them out and treat them like an unbeliever because we don't unify ourselves with unbelievers, right?

[\[01:18:49\]](#transcript-01-18-49-1129) They're not, they don't have the Holy Spirit.

[\[01:18:51\]](#transcript-01-18-51-1130) They can't bring their gifts of grace.

[\[01:18:52\]](#transcript-01-18-52-1131) Therefore, they're, this is why we don't do church for unbelievers.

[\[01:18:56\]](#transcript-01-18-56-1132) We do church for believers to go out and get them.

[\[01:18:58\]](#transcript-01-18-58-1133) So he's like, you have to treat them as one who is, they're so much in sin that you have to put them outside the context because they're not being unified with the body.

[\[01:19:07\]](#transcript-01-19-07-1134) But why are we putting them out?

[\[01:19:09\]](#transcript-01-19-09-1135) We're not putting them out so they remain there, we're putting them out so they see themselves for who they are.

[\[01:19:14\]](#transcript-01-19-14-1136) You are acting like an unbeliever that we might restore them.

[\[01:19:18\]](#transcript-01-19-18-1137) But the restoration, what is it they need?

[\[01:19:20\]](#transcript-01-19-20-1138) They always need the gospel.

[\[01:19:21\]](#transcript-01-19-21-1139) Because if we're saying, treat them like a Gentile, what do Gentiles need?

[\[01:19:25\]](#transcript-01-19-25-1140) They need the gospel, right?

[\[01:19:26\]](#transcript-01-19-26-1141) Yeah, so it's always in the context of the church.

[\[01:19:29\]](#transcript-01-19-29-1142) We always individualize it in the context of the person, but I think we need to contact look at it in the context of the person and the church.

[\[01:19:36\]](#transcript-01-19-36-1143) And because Paul's talking about like the purity of the congregation, he's worried about the unity of the congregation.

[\[01:19:42\]](#transcript-01-19-42-1144) So, and I'm Jesus is also thinking about it in the sheepfold.

[\[01:19:47\]](#transcript-01-19-47-1145) So, there, there is an essence because sometimes, um, when it says, don't even eat with them, I think he means in that context of like, you're not going to, you're not going to enjoy the Lord's table with immunity.

[\[01:19:57\]](#transcript-01-19-57-1146) Yeah.

[\[01:19:58\]](#transcript-01-19-58-1147) Yeah.

[\[01:19:58\]](#transcript-01-19-58-1148) I mean, and you could take that in both ways.

[\[01:20:00\]](#transcript-01-20-00-1149) I don't care how you want to take that.

[\[01:20:01\]](#transcript-01-20-01-1150) Yeah.

[\[01:20:01\]](#transcript-01-20-01-1151) I think it's very similar to 2 John where it says, do not receive these false teachers into your home.

[\[01:20:05\]](#transcript-01-20-05-1152) Yeah.

[\[01:20:06\]](#transcript-01-20-06-1153) You don't do something that makes it look like to the public world that you're in fellowship with this person who's either an unrepentant sin or preaching a false gospel or whatever.

[\[01:20:14\]](#transcript-01-20-14-1154) That could be corporately, it could be individually.

[\[01:20:16\]](#transcript-01-20-16-1155) You can go have lunch.

[\[01:20:17\]](#transcript-01-20-17-1156) I mean, as a matter of fact, I would hope that our members would go have lunch with someone who's an unrepentant sin.

[\[01:20:22\]](#transcript-01-20-22-1157) But the way that you relate to them during that meal is going to be very different.

[\[01:20:27\]](#transcript-01-20-27-1158) Yeah, you're going to, and I would even say there's a difference between a false teacher.

[\[01:20:30\]](#transcript-01-20-30-1159) Oh, of course.

[\[01:20:31\]](#transcript-01-20-31-1160) Yeah, and you would agree.

[\[01:20:32\]](#transcript-01-20-32-1161) Yes, gradations.

[\[01:20:33\]](#transcript-01-20-33-1162) Yeah.

[\[01:20:34\]](#transcript-01-20-34-1163) So I would always look at it as until they, until an individual is like has absolutely changed their faith, saying, I actually no longer embrace the gospel.

[\[01:20:46\]](#transcript-01-20-46-1164) I'm going to continue to tell them

[\[01:20:49\]](#transcript-01-20-49-1165) you are living outside of God's will and judgment.

[\[01:20:52\]](#transcript-01-20-52-1166) If you remain in this state that you are in now, in unrepentant sin, you're going to have to stand in judgment before the Lord in that, right?

[\[01:21:00\]](#transcript-01-21-00-1167) Um, Because there are contexts in the New Testament where people do live in really grotesque sins for a very long time and then they come back.

[\[01:21:07\]](#transcript-01-21-07-1168) Our confession speaks to this in chapter five.

[\[01:21:10\]](#transcript-01-21-10-1169) It says that God at times allows people to wander in their sins so that when they repent, they have a greater dependence on God.

[\[01:21:16\]](#transcript-01-21-16-1170) Yeah, there's all kinds of good and holy purposes He has, and that's one of them.

[\[01:21:19\]](#transcript-01-21-19-1171) That's right.

[\[01:21:20\]](#transcript-01-21-20-1172) Yeah, I guess I would just the reason why I appreciate confidence as a category is because it's not on/off.

[\[01:21:26\]](#transcript-01-21-26-1173) It's like a dimmer switch.

[\[01:21:27\]](#transcript-01-21-27-1174) Obviously, someone who's wandered 10,000 feet from the fold in egregious sin for quite a long time, the church and U.S.

[\[01:21:36\]](#transcript-01-21-36-1175) pastors and whoever else is in their lives has diminished confidence.

[\[01:21:40\]](#transcript-01-21-40-1176) Yeah, I would agree with that.

[\[01:21:41\]](#transcript-01-21-41-1177) That's true.

[\[01:21:42\]](#transcript-01-21-42-1178) Yeah, that's right.

[\[01:21:42\]](#transcript-01-21-42-1179) And then, and then, you know, if they come back, they start poking their head in on a Sunday morning, oh, we have greater hope and confidence.

[\[01:21:48\]](#transcript-01-21-48-1180) You know, let's just, and let's just keep giving them the gospel and pray that the Lord causes fruit to be born and keeping with repentance.

[\[01:21:54\]](#transcript-01-21-54-1181) Yes, and I have no problems with that.

[\[01:21:56\]](#transcript-01-21-56-1182) Even Paul talks about how encouraged and strengthened he is by the fidelity and faithfulness to the gospel that they have.

[\[01:22:03\]](#transcript-01-22-03-1183) Of course.

[\[01:22:03\]](#transcript-01-22-03-1184) So that's not language that we're, yes.

[\[01:22:06\]](#transcript-01-22-06-1185) Yeah.

[\[01:22:07\]](#transcript-01-22-07-1186) I don't have any more to say now that I agree.

[\[01:22:08\]](#transcript-01-22-08-1187) I mean, to kind of speak to the way that you kind of launched us into this portion of the conversation, I do, I will receive what you said about the way that I, as a pastor, emphasize fruit and

[\[01:22:20\]](#transcript-01-22-20-1188) examination of it in that positive direction to adorn your profession, to build up the body of Christ, to bless your neighbor, and to bolster your assurance.

[\[01:22:31\]](#transcript-01-22-31-1189) Absolutely.

[\[01:22:31\]](#transcript-01-22-31-1190) I want to talk in those terms all the time.

[\[01:22:33\]](#transcript-01-22-33-1191) We practice where I think we go the negative direction is really when we practice church discipline.

[\[01:22:40\]](#transcript-01-22-40-1192) I don't know that outside of that, I'm doing, I'm not saying I don't know this, Sean, but I might not be doing as much of that as you might.

[\[01:22:49\]](#transcript-01-22-49-1193) Sure.

[\[01:22:49\]](#transcript-01-22-49-1194) And that's, it might just be.

[\[01:22:51\]](#transcript-01-22-51-1195) I'm even examining myself as I'm sitting here listening to you guys talk, and I'm like, oh, do I need to calibrate?

[\[01:22:55\]](#transcript-01-22-55-1196) I wonder, I'm thinking of when I preach through Judges or John, which is like every time you're in John, it's just like, do they really believe in Jesus?

[\[01:23:04\]](#transcript-01-23-04-1197) And the temptation is just to lean heavily in that direction.

[\[01:23:07\]](#transcript-01-23-07-1198) So I'm trying to listen to Rashid, too.

[\[01:23:09\]](#transcript-01-23-09-1199) Like, do I need to calibrate when I'm doing it?

[\[01:23:10\]](#transcript-01-23-10-1200) No, these are these kinds of conversations are really helpful because we are like-minded brothers in the Lord that have maybe some disagreements over some things, or might have different emphases, or we might have just different degrees to which

[\[01:23:23\]](#transcript-01-23-23-1201) we think this, do this, whatever, apply this.

[\[01:23:25\]](#transcript-01-23-25-1202) It's healthy, it's good.

[\[01:23:27\]](#transcript-01-23-27-1203) Sharpening.

[\[01:23:27\]](#transcript-01-23-27-1204) First John.

[\[01:23:28\]](#transcript-01-23-28-1205) So, this is a, I'm going to be, I want to be thoughtful.

[\[01:23:32\]](#transcript-01-23-32-1206) I want to be nuanced.

[\[01:23:33\]](#transcript-01-23-33-1207) Hey, there's plenty of room for it.

[\[01:23:35\]](#transcript-01-23-35-1208) Shout out.

[\[01:23:37\]](#transcript-01-23-37-1209) Room for nuance.

[\[01:23:38\]](#transcript-01-23-38-1210) But I'll give my take on 1 John.

[\[01:23:43\]](#transcript-01-23-43-1211) I'll lead by saying that I think in our modern context, any commentary, for example, that's been written on 1 John by anybody who's alive

[\[01:23:54\]](#transcript-01-23-54-1212) is bad.

[\[01:23:56\]](#transcript-01-23-56-1213) Well, you're wrong.

[\[01:23:58\]](#transcript-01-23-58-1214) Kind of.

[\[01:23:58\]](#transcript-01-23-58-1215) I mean, so I think generally speaking, the way that we view 1 John is as like the litanus test of salvation.

[\[01:24:06\]](#transcript-01-24-06-1216) I would contend that the emphasis of 1 John, so I preached it a few years ago.

[\[01:24:14\]](#transcript-01-24-14-1217) I think John is writing to a church that has been bombarded by false teaching and apostasy.

[\[01:24:20\]](#transcript-01-24-20-1218) And in the context, I mean, you can gather some of these things from what he writes.

[\[01:24:24\]](#transcript-01-24-24-1219) So there are people who are denying effectively the sins of Gnosticism.

[\[01:24:29\]](#transcript-01-24-29-1220) Yeah, so proto-Gnostic thought.

[\[01:24:31\]](#transcript-01-24-31-1221) Right.

[\[01:24:31\]](#transcript-01-24-31-1222) Yeah.

[\[01:24:31\]](#transcript-01-24-31-1223) And then this kind of like dualism, where there's like kind of spiritual plane, physical plane, sins done in the body don't matter, right?

[\[01:24:38\]](#transcript-01-24-38-1224) Because all that really matters is kind of the spiritual plane.

[\[01:24:40\]](#transcript-01-24-40-1225) So that's that kind of denial of the sinfulness of sin, or that sins committed in the body don't matter.

[\[01:24:44\]](#transcript-01-24-44-1226) You see that even in chapter one.

[\[01:24:46\]](#transcript-01-24-46-1227) Obviously, there's a kind of docetism going on as well, where Jesus only appeared to be in the flesh, but he wasn't really human.

[\[01:24:54\]](#transcript-01-24-54-1228) And it's very clear that there are people who have left the church that John is writing to, even in chapter 2 and verse 19, a verse that we know: well, they went out of us, or went out from

[\[01:25:03\]](#transcript-01-25-03-1229) us because they're not of us, right?

[\[01:25:05\]](#transcript-01-25-05-1230) Yeah, so that's all going on, and I think John is actually writing to the saints to assure them that they're legit in light of all the things that have been bombarding them.

[\[01:25:19\]](#transcript-01-25-19-1231) So that's why he makes such an emphasis on several things: you know, confessing sin and acknowledging sin.

[\[01:25:26\]](#transcript-01-25-26-1232) Confessing, how often does he say we confess that Christ came in the flesh, and that's critical.

[\[01:25:32\]](#transcript-01-25-32-1233) And then he talks about love

[\[01:25:36\]](#transcript-01-25-36-1234) rather than abandonment, he talks about love and loving one another, and then, rather than denying that sin is even a thing, right?

[\[01:25:45\]](#transcript-01-25-45-1235) He's saying, pursue righteousness.

[\[01:25:47\]](#transcript-01-25-47-1236) So I think what he is writing, because how often too, in that letter, like if you go through it, how often does he not only call them brothers or beloved or beloved children, he writes a lot of really

[\[01:25:57\]](#transcript-01-25-57-1237) strong words about how you are strong or we are children of God, right?

[\[01:26:03\]](#transcript-01-26-03-1238) So he is constantly pointing them to who they are.

[\[01:26:06\]](#transcript-01-26-06-1239) And I think is trying to demonstrate not that they are illegitimate, but that the people who left them are illegitimate.

[\[01:26:14\]](#transcript-01-26-14-1240) And so I think that for me, and then you even get into chapter five, where, you know, verse 13, where he writes these things so that they would know, right?

[\[01:26:23\]](#transcript-01-26-23-1241) And like John Calvin, John Calvin's commentary on 1 John, I think is quite good.

[\[01:26:28\]](#transcript-01-26-28-1242) And on that verse, he writes some things that I quote often that have become, in one sense, very much a kind of guiding principle for me as a preacher.

[\[01:26:41\]](#transcript-01-26-41-1243) He says that the apostle writes this to those who are already in the faith, so that they might know that they're in Christ.

[\[01:26:47\]](#transcript-01-26-47-1244) And he says, But note, and he says, Let's take note, though, of how disciples are confirmed in the faith.

[\[01:26:53\]](#transcript-01-26-53-1245) It is to have the office and power of Christ explained to them.

[\[01:26:57\]](#transcript-01-26-57-1246) And then he says, It is, therefore the duty of a godly minister to extol as much as possible the grace of Christ, so that being satisfied with that, we might look to nothing else.

[\[01:27:10\]](#transcript-01-27-10-1247) And I think he's right on that.

[\[01:27:11\]](#transcript-01-27-11-1248) And so that's my take on First John.

[\[01:27:13\]](#transcript-01-27-13-1249) And again, like-minded brothers can have differing opinions on that.

[\[01:27:17\]](#transcript-01-27-17-1250) Yeah, we're talking about three or four degrees of difference here, right?

[\[01:27:21\]](#transcript-01-27-21-1251) Not 15, not correct, not 15.

[\[01:27:23\]](#transcript-01-27-23-1252) Not fundamentally different direction.

[\[01:27:25\]](#transcript-01-27-25-1253) That's right.

[\[01:27:25\]](#transcript-01-27-25-1254) Right.

[\[01:27:26\]](#transcript-01-27-26-1255) Hey guys, real quick.

[\[01:27:28\]](#transcript-01-27-28-1256) Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[01:27:31\]](#transcript-01-27-31-1257) So, where do you go?

[\[01:27:33\]](#transcript-01-27-33-1258) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources.

[\[01:27:37\]](#transcript-01-27-37-1259) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources are there.

[\[01:27:45\]](#transcript-01-27-45-1260) Past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[01:27:51\]](#transcript-01-27-51-1261) You can go check it out.

[\[01:27:52\]](#transcript-01-27-52-1262) The link is in the description below.

[\[01:27:54\]](#transcript-01-27-54-1263) So, brother, you wanted to read something real quick?

[\[01:27:57\]](#transcript-01-27-57-1264) No.

[\[01:27:57\]](#transcript-01-27-57-1265) Okay, good, good.

[\[01:27:59\]](#transcript-01-27-59-1266) Close it, keep your thoughts to yourself.

[\[01:28:02\]](#transcript-01-28-02-1267) I want to ask you guys your opinions on three books in relation to this subject.

[\[01:28:08\]](#transcript-01-28-08-1268) This could be fun.

[\[01:28:08\]](#transcript-01-28-08-1269) I think so.

[\[01:28:09\]](#transcript-01-28-09-1270) Hopefully, we won't get those books thrown at us based upon our responses.

[\[01:28:13\]](#transcript-01-28-13-1271) We'll see.

[\[01:28:13\]](#transcript-01-28-13-1272) First book from somebody I think we all appreciate, Kevin DeYoung, The Hole in Our Holiness.

[\[01:28:20\]](#transcript-01-28-20-1273) Oh, Sean.

[\[01:28:22\]](#transcript-01-28-22-1274) Okay.

[\[01:28:24\]](#transcript-01-28-24-1275) John, I'll go.

[\[01:28:25\]](#transcript-01-28-25-1276) I'll take the bullet.

[\[01:28:26\]](#transcript-01-28-26-1277) All right.

[\[01:28:27\]](#transcript-01-28-27-1278) So, appreciate Kevin.

[\[01:28:29\]](#transcript-01-28-29-1279) Like you're saying, which means he's about to get real quick.

[\[01:28:33\]](#transcript-01-28-33-1280) Love that, brother.

[\[01:28:34\]](#transcript-01-28-34-1281) He's got his love in his heart.

[\[01:28:35\]](#transcript-01-28-35-1282) So great for his ministry.

[\[01:28:37\]](#transcript-01-28-37-1283) All right.

[\[01:28:37\]](#transcript-01-28-37-1284) So before, like, we took a pull back the curtain, we took a brief break, and we were acknowledging the fact that these kinds of conversations are so healthy because we tend to look back over church history and assume

[\[01:28:49\]](#transcript-01-28-49-1285) that people who were a part of the same tradition were just monolithic and thought the same way about everything, which is just abjectly false, and so patently false.

[\[01:28:58\]](#transcript-01-28-58-1286) So, this is great to do.

[\[01:28:59\]](#transcript-01-28-59-1287) So, yeah, like it's possible to appreciate a man's ministry and agree with him about a lot of things and then disagree with him about some things.

[\[01:29:06\]](#transcript-01-29-06-1288) Like, that can be done, and we don't just need to burn his entire ministry down.

[\[01:29:10\]](#transcript-01-29-10-1289) And just, well, I need to just reject everything he's ever said or written, right?

[\[01:29:14\]](#transcript-01-29-14-1290) Which is, I assume, kind of the point of your entire podcast: room for nuance.

[\[01:29:17\]](#transcript-01-29-17-1291) How about that?

[\[01:29:18\]](#transcript-01-29-18-1292) All right, so that book by Kevin, Holy Holy, he really, where I would take some exception to it is even his treatment of Hebrews 12.

[\[01:29:29\]](#transcript-01-29-29-1293) So I think Kevin, we're all reactionary.

[\[01:29:31\]](#transcript-01-29-31-1294) We have to acknowledge that.

[\[01:29:32\]](#transcript-01-29-32-1295) We all react.

[\[01:29:33\]](#transcript-01-29-33-1296) Yeah, you do theology in a real world where people are saying things.

[\[01:29:37\]](#transcript-01-29-37-1297) Nothing happens.

[\[01:29:38\]](#transcript-01-29-38-1298) You respond to them.

[\[01:29:38\]](#transcript-01-29-38-1299) Yeah, that's right.

[\[01:29:39\]](#transcript-01-29-39-1300) I mean, even the Protestant Reformation, for goodness sakes.

[\[01:29:42\]](#transcript-01-29-42-1301) I mean, we're all sitting here today because there's reaction and confessions of faith, creeds in the ancient, you know, in the patristic era.

[\[01:29:49\]](#transcript-01-29-49-1302) I mean, they're all done.

[\[01:29:50\]](#transcript-01-29-50-1303) Why?

[\[01:29:50\]](#transcript-01-29-50-1304) Well, it's a reaction to what's going on.

[\[01:29:52\]](#transcript-01-29-52-1305) Yeah.

[\[01:29:52\]](#transcript-01-29-52-1306) So that's not illegitimate to be reactionary.

[\[01:29:54\]](#transcript-01-29-54-1307) I think Kevin understandably was reacting to like Tully and Shavijin and some of that kind of stuff, where it was this first use of the law only and a denial of the third use of the law.

[\[01:30:05\]](#transcript-01-30-05-1308) And there really were reasons to ask: like, does holiness matter?

[\[01:30:09\]](#transcript-01-30-09-1309) Based upon how some of these guys, particularly in the Presbyterian world at that time, were speaking, teaching, writing, etc.

[\[01:30:14\]](#transcript-01-30-14-1310) So I'm sympathetic to that.

[\[01:30:16\]](#transcript-01-30-16-1311) I do think, from my vantage point, I do think that the book, to a degree, was maybe an over-correction.

[\[01:30:26\]](#transcript-01-30-26-1312) And in particular, the treatment of Hebrews 12, I don't agree wholly because I think in the context there, you know, Hebrews 12 begins with

[\[01:30:36\]](#transcript-01-30-36-1313) we are to

[\[01:30:39\]](#transcript-01-30-39-1314) obviously set aside the sin that entangles all these kinds of things, and we are to look to Christ, the author and the finisher of our faith, right?

[\[01:30:48\]](#transcript-01-30-48-1315) And then he begins to talk about God's fatherly discipline.

[\[01:30:53\]](#transcript-01-30-53-1316) And he speaks in such a way, the writer writes in such a way as to say that you're being disciplined because you're a child of God, right?

[\[01:31:02\]](#transcript-01-31-02-1317) And this is actually so that, like verse 10 or 11, so that you might share in his holiness.

[\[01:31:07\]](#transcript-01-31-07-1318) God disciplines you.

[\[01:31:08\]](#transcript-01-31-08-1319) This one's never pleasant when you're going through it, of course not.

[\[01:31:11\]](#transcript-01-31-11-1320) And that's why he has to exhort the saints that you're being disciplined, not because you're illegitimate, you're being disciplined because you're God's child.

[\[01:31:20\]](#transcript-01-31-20-1321) And so, strengthen your weak hands, your feeble knees, and bear up under the discipline of God, in as much as it concerns you, pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.

[\[01:31:31\]](#transcript-01-31-31-1322) I don't see that to be as threatening of a thing as maybe Kevin made it to be, because literally, the discipline of God as your heavenly Father is meant for you so that you would share in His holiness.

[\[01:31:42\]](#transcript-01-31-42-1323) So he's actually working this in us.

[\[01:31:45\]](#transcript-01-31-45-1324) And there is a holiness without which we will not see him.

[\[01:31:49\]](#transcript-01-31-49-1325) And he is disciplining us to that end that we might share in his holiness.

[\[01:31:53\]](#transcript-01-31-53-1326) So, I might make a different emphasis in terms of an application of Hebrews 12.

[\[01:31:58\]](#transcript-01-31-58-1327) Having said that, obviously, we are concerned for holiness and obedience in the church.

[\[01:32:04\]](#transcript-01-32-04-1328) We're called to it, and it's wonderful that we would pursue it and we should pursue it.

[\[01:32:09\]](#transcript-01-32-09-1329) So, nothing that I'm saying should be misconstrued in that regard.

[\[01:32:12\]](#transcript-01-32-12-1330) So, that's yeah, turn that thing around in the book.

[\[01:32:16\]](#transcript-01-32-16-1331) In the book, I believe, and forgive me if I misquoted, but I'm pretty sure he says to the tone of, I will stake my entire ministry on the fact that this verse means that our holiness does play into

[\[01:32:29\]](#transcript-01-32-29-1332) our justifying, or basically.

[\[01:32:31\]](#transcript-01-32-31-1333) He's saying that he's not, that this is not writing about positional holiness, to which I would agree.

[\[01:32:35\]](#transcript-01-32-35-1334) Agree, but the struggle then becomes if, and I and I agree with Justin that he didn't really take time to execute the entire passage, kind of just pulled the one verse out and says, see, right here it says

[\[01:32:49\]](#transcript-01-32-49-1335) this.

[\[01:32:50\]](#transcript-01-32-50-1336) And when you're looking at it and you're reading it, you're talking about a loving, gracious Heavenly Father who, I mean, he begins with looking unto the author and finisher of our faith.

[\[01:32:59\]](#transcript-01-32-59-1337) So stop and think about that just for a moment.

[\[01:33:02\]](#transcript-01-33-02-1338) If he authors and finishes it, what does the writer want us to walk away with in that statement?

[\[01:33:09\]](#transcript-01-33-09-1339) Confidence, assurance.

[\[01:33:11\]](#transcript-01-33-11-1340) If he, if he brought me to life, he will bring me to glory.

[\[01:33:16\]](#transcript-01-33-16-1341) So that's how he begins the context, right?

[\[01:33:18\]](#transcript-01-33-18-1342) He goes, Now, the journey from life to glory, it could be a rough one, right?

[\[01:33:24\]](#transcript-01-33-24-1343) So he's like, lift up your drooping head.

[\[01:33:26\]](#transcript-01-33-26-1344) Like, hey, listen, you can lift your eyes, lift your head up.

[\[01:33:29\]](#transcript-01-33-29-1345) It's been a rough path, but know that when the Lord disciplines you in these moments where you struggle, it's love.

[\[01:33:36\]](#transcript-01-33-36-1346) He disciplines those whom He loves, right?

[\[01:33:38\]](#transcript-01-33-38-1347) So there's this flow of confidence and gentleness and encouragement towards holiness, and then all of a sudden, just to turn that thing on its head and smack you against it doesn't make sense, right?

[\[01:33:49\]](#transcript-01-33-49-1348) You're like, why would he go from confidence and gentleness and encouragement and God's fatherly discipline to mass to just like pop fear on you, right?

[\[01:33:59\]](#transcript-01-33-59-1349) So, when you look at it in context, even in the verses that follow, he is encouraging them to think different about their life, of course.

[\[01:34:06\]](#transcript-01-34-06-1350) Right.

[\[01:34:06\]](#transcript-01-34-06-1351) So, I mean, he even goes on and says, see to it that you're restraining from sexual morality and holy, just like Esau.

[\[01:34:13\]](#transcript-01-34-13-1352) So it's almost like you're the writer of people sitting down this child and saying, All right, look, you're different now.

[\[01:34:22\]](#transcript-01-34-22-1353) Okay, there's a different way of thinking about life.

[\[01:34:25\]](#transcript-01-34-25-1354) Your confidence needs to always be Jesus, setting aside the weight and the sin that easy besets us.

[\[01:34:31\]](#transcript-01-34-31-1355) And what are we doing as we're setting aside as in this running of the race?

[\[01:34:34\]](#transcript-01-34-34-1356) We're not looking to ourselves, examining myself.

[\[01:34:37\]](#transcript-01-34-37-1357) He goes, looking unto Jesus who started you and he will finish you.

[\[01:34:41\]](#transcript-01-34-41-1358) So, some of our criticism of a book like The Hole and Our Holiness is that we agree we want to be holy.

[\[01:34:48\]](#transcript-01-34-48-1359) The motivation is not fear that I may not make it.

[\[01:34:51\]](#transcript-01-34-51-1360) The motivation is, I'll turn another passage, 1 Johnn even says this, right?

[\[01:34:56\]](#transcript-01-34-56-1361) First John says, What we will be, we have not yet, he has not yet appeared.

[\[01:35:00\]](#transcript-01-35-00-1362) But while we wait for his appearing, we purify ourselves as he is pure, right?

[\[01:35:06\]](#transcript-01-35-06-1363) Looking into Jesus.

[\[01:35:07\]](#transcript-01-35-07-1364) So, this is 1 John saying it just slightly different in Hebrews.

[\[01:35:11\]](#transcript-01-35-11-1365) Hebrews, look at Jesus, set aside the weight.

[\[01:35:13\]](#transcript-01-35-13-1366) Look at Jesus, purify yourself.

[\[01:35:15\]](#transcript-01-35-15-1367) So, the motivation for holiness is always the good aspects of who Christ is.

[\[01:35:21\]](#transcript-01-35-21-1368) My kickback would be: the holiness without no one will see the Lord.

[\[01:35:27\]](#transcript-01-35-27-1369) How much holiness?

[\[01:35:28\]](#transcript-01-35-28-1370) That's always my question.

[\[01:35:31\]](#transcript-01-35-31-1371) Is that your argument with the author of Hebrews?

[\[01:35:33\]](#transcript-01-35-33-1372) No.

[\[01:35:33\]](#transcript-01-35-33-1373) I think the author of Hebrews is just making his argument very clear in that: hey, listen, holiness has its place and it's a part of your life.

[\[01:35:40\]](#transcript-01-35-40-1374) And it's all a part of this entire context.

[\[01:35:43\]](#transcript-01-35-43-1375) My argument with De Young, when he uses it the way he did, in a fear tactic, my answer is: how much holiness does one need to have in order to make sure they see the Lord?

[\[01:35:54\]](#transcript-01-35-54-1376) Is there a place for fear in sanctification process?

[\[01:35:58\]](#transcript-01-35-58-1377) 100%.

[\[01:35:59\]](#transcript-01-35-59-1378) Justin and I was talking about this the other day.

[\[01:36:01\]](#transcript-01-36-01-1379) I'm really afraid of the consequences of my sin against my family, against the glory and honor of the Lord, against the implications of my church.

[\[01:36:10\]](#transcript-01-36-10-1380) I am afraid of what it will do because it's negative and destructive and not helpful at all.

[\[01:36:16\]](#transcript-01-36-16-1381) Am I afraid of that?

[\[01:36:18\]](#transcript-01-36-18-1382) My sin will lead me to the place well, I will not be saved.

[\[01:36:21\]](#transcript-01-36-21-1383) No, because there's nothing that can separate me from that.

[\[01:36:24\]](#transcript-01-36-24-1384) Because are you're asking, is there a place for fear as it pertains to our relationship to God?

[\[01:36:29\]](#transcript-01-36-29-1385) Yeah.

[\[01:36:30\]](#transcript-01-36-30-1386) So I agree with you guys about all of the fatherly

[\[01:36:37\]](#transcript-01-36-37-1387) comforting, assuring language of Hebrews.

[\[01:36:41\]](#transcript-01-36-41-1388) And then, but it feels like at the end there, where he says, Holiness, without which no one will see the Lord, it's not fear that, like, my sin might hurt my marriage, it's fear that's why I asked you

[\[01:36:51\]](#transcript-01-36-51-1389) the question, yeah, right.

[\[01:36:53\]](#transcript-01-36-53-1390) Because you're getting at that fear as it pertains to God and me, yeah, it's couched within the context of overall assurance, but I don't want neuter that, right?

[\[01:37:02\]](#transcript-01-37-02-1391) And I don't, I mean, I can't, I don't even remember everything that Kevin said about it there.

[\[01:37:06\]](#transcript-01-37-06-1392) I guess it's been a while.

[\[01:37:07\]](#transcript-01-37-07-1393) Yeah, same.

[\[01:37:10\]](#transcript-01-37-10-1394) So, when I, you know, even here, like, is there a sense in which Christians fear God?

[\[01:37:16\]](#transcript-01-37-16-1395) I mean, I think we need to define fear, you know, fear of the Lord, because that's used in various places throughout scripture.

[\[01:37:22\]](#transcript-01-37-22-1396) And I think there are different nuances to it.

[\[01:37:25\]](#transcript-01-37-25-1397) There we go again.

[\[01:37:26\]](#transcript-01-37-26-1398) There we go again.

[\[01:37:28\]](#transcript-01-37-28-1399) So, I think the way that I would say, Sean, I think, in short, is there a place for the fear in the form of dread in the Christian's life as it pertains to signification?

[\[01:37:40\]](#transcript-01-37-40-1400) I'm going to push back hard against that and generally say no.

[\[01:37:44\]](#transcript-01-37-44-1401) So, can I pause you right there?

[\[01:37:45\]](#transcript-01-37-45-1402) But I want to clarify what I mean.

[\[01:37:47\]](#transcript-01-37-47-1403) Okay, sure.

[\[01:37:48\]](#transcript-01-37-48-1404) Go ahead.

[\[01:37:48\]](#transcript-01-37-48-1405) So, what I would say, though, is that we do, as Christians, fear God, we revere Him, we respect Him, we're in awe of him, we see him as holy, and majestic, and glorious, and all those things.

[\[01:37:59\]](#transcript-01-37-59-1406) And we do know that his righteous wrath is coming for all those who deserve it.

[\[01:38:04\]](#transcript-01-38-04-1407) And we would understand, even as far as my corrupt flesh is concerned, I do deserve that as well.

[\[01:38:09\]](#transcript-01-38-09-1408) So there is a sense of great reverence and fear that we have in that regard.

[\[01:38:14\]](#transcript-01-38-14-1409) But I am not any longer because of my union with Christ and the fact that I have been in the Lord Jesus, I really am.

[\[01:38:21\]](#transcript-01-38-21-1410) I am, I'm not what I once was.

[\[01:38:23\]](#transcript-01-38-23-1411) I am a new creation and united to Christ.

[\[01:38:25\]](#transcript-01-38-25-1412) That I am now God's child, and that that is not going anywhere.

[\[01:38:30\]](#transcript-01-38-30-1413) And so there is no longer fear of him as judge, there is fear of him as father, which are, which is fundamentally different.

[\[01:38:37\]](#transcript-01-38-37-1414) And, you know, like, if we think about all this, I'm going to pause you right there.

[\[01:38:40\]](#transcript-01-38-40-1415) So I just, so I don't lose this.

[\[01:38:42\]](#transcript-01-38-42-1416) Please, brother.

[\[01:38:44\]](#transcript-01-38-44-1417) I hear you.

[\[01:38:45\]](#transcript-01-38-45-1418) That doesn't sound like what the author of Hebrews is saying there.

[\[01:38:48\]](#transcript-01-38-48-1419) Couched with all the language of assurance and children, he still is, it's not like fear of like, Yeah, I'm your father, I'm going to discipline you.

[\[01:38:57\]](#transcript-01-38-57-1420) He says, Fear without holiness, you will not see the Lord.

[\[01:39:02\]](#transcript-01-39-02-1421) Right?

[\[01:39:02\]](#transcript-01-39-02-1422) So, like, I do like, I don't know what you guys think about the structure of Hebrews and all that.

[\[01:39:06\]](#transcript-01-39-06-1423) Five sermons.

[\[01:39:08\]](#transcript-01-39-08-1424) I mean, if we want to just have a six-hour podcast, we could cover all of it.

[\[01:39:11\]](#transcript-01-39-11-1425) but but uh, like, I wonder if you guys were sitting in maybe the church service where uh, this sermon were being preached, right?

[\[01:39:19\]](#transcript-01-39-19-1426) Yeah, because we do it does seem like a sermon, yeah, right.

[\[01:39:22\]](#transcript-01-39-22-1427) And he says, Listen, without holiness, you will not see the Lord.

[\[01:39:26\]](#transcript-01-39-26-1428) Couched in all the language of all the other stuff in the chapter, which grounds our assurance.

[\[01:39:32\]](#transcript-01-39-32-1429) I wonder if you would correct him.

[\[01:39:33\]](#transcript-01-39-33-1430) I wonder if you would say that's not an appropriate way.

[\[01:39:36\]](#transcript-01-39-36-1431) Now, obviously, you're not going to sit here and tell me that you would correct the author of Hebrews, divinely inspired.

[\[01:39:40\]](#transcript-01-39-40-1432) But I wonder if you were in my church service and I tried to have that warp and woof as I was preaching through the warp and woof of the text.

[\[01:39:47\]](#transcript-01-39-47-1433) Don't ask me exactly what that means.

[\[01:39:48\]](#transcript-01-39-48-1434) You'll just feel it out.

[\[01:39:50\]](#transcript-01-39-50-1435) If I was preaching that text in my congregation and I'm giving them the assurance and discipline, it comes from a father who loves us and he's going to keep us and he's the author and perfecter.

[\[01:39:57\]](#transcript-01-39-57-1436) But don't get it twisted.

[\[01:39:59\]](#transcript-01-39-59-1437) If you are not holy, you will not see God.

[\[01:40:01\]](#transcript-01-40-01-1438) And that should terrify you.

[\[01:40:02\]](#transcript-01-40-02-1439) I wonder if you would correct me after that and say, brother, I don't think that was appropriate.

[\[01:40:06\]](#transcript-01-40-06-1440) If you use the word terrify, I might push back against that because I don't mean that's the most terrifying thing I can think of to not see the Lord.

[\[01:40:14\]](#transcript-01-40-14-1441) Be holy, because if you're not, you won't see the Lord.

[\[01:40:16\]](#transcript-01-40-16-1442) Sure.

[\[01:40:18\]](#transcript-01-40-18-1443) Yeah.

[\[01:40:21\]](#transcript-01-40-21-1444) We still have two more books to do.

[\[01:40:23\]](#transcript-01-40-23-1445) Yeah, you do have decisions to make, though, because

[\[01:40:27\]](#transcript-01-40-27-1446) you have to look at all of scripture.

[\[01:40:29\]](#transcript-01-40-29-1447) And I would say, even all of the book, and make your decisions in light of that.

[\[01:40:34\]](#transcript-01-40-34-1448) I feel like

[\[01:40:36\]](#transcript-01-40-36-1449) I mean, even back up, I think it's funny how we're emphasizing the holy part, but we're not emphasizing the part before that, right?

[\[01:40:43\]](#transcript-01-40-43-1450) He says, Strive for peace with everyone.

[\[01:40:46\]](#transcript-01-40-46-1451) And so, what does he mean by that?

[\[01:40:49\]](#transcript-01-40-49-1452) Like, there's a context to everything he's writing.

[\[01:40:51\]](#transcript-01-40-51-1453) What is he concerned about, right?

[\[01:40:53\]](#transcript-01-40-53-1454) Like, what is it at the heart of what he's getting at?

[\[01:40:56\]](#transcript-01-40-56-1455) And I think that there is a there, we rest in the sufficiency of Christ, and we understand that we're going to struggle against sin, saint, sin, and reality.

[\[01:41:06\]](#transcript-01-41-06-1456) That is right there in the text.

[\[01:41:08\]](#transcript-01-41-08-1457) And that if you don't agree with him on this, there's a problem.

[\[01:41:13\]](#transcript-01-41-13-1458) There's a problem if you don't agree with him on this.

[\[01:41:15\]](#transcript-01-41-15-1459) Yeah.

[\[01:41:15\]](#transcript-01-41-15-1460) Right?

[\[01:41:16\]](#transcript-01-41-16-1461) I mean, that's, it's, there's a, because how then do you answer the question in Romans 8, where he's like, Well, there's nothing that will separate you from the love of God, not even you, right?

[\[01:41:25\]](#transcript-01-41-25-1462) Jesus loses none of his own.

[\[01:41:27\]](#transcript-01-41-27-1463) So I have to hold that intention.

[\[01:41:29\]](#transcript-01-41-29-1464) We are saved by faith, not by works.

[\[01:41:31\]](#transcript-01-41-31-1465) I have to hold that intention.

[\[01:41:32\]](#transcript-01-41-32-1466) That passage, you're saved by works.

[\[01:41:34\]](#transcript-01-41-34-1467) If you're in, if you're putting the emphasis the way you're putting it, you have to say you are saved by works.

[\[01:41:40\]](#transcript-01-41-40-1468) You have to say that without holiness, you will not see the Lord.

[\[01:41:43\]](#transcript-01-41-43-1469) Well, I mean, I'm just quoting well, you could also say, For God's who loved the world, therefore, free will.

[\[01:41:49\]](#transcript-01-41-49-1470) Yeah, right.

[\[01:41:50\]](#transcript-01-41-50-1471) Yeah, and this is one of the problems that I think sometimes we can get into with like sometimes you just have to let a text stand on its own, and you don't, you cannot qualify it to death with

[\[01:42:01\]](#transcript-01-42-01-1472) every facet and nuance that the that the gospel presents you know because if you do that you're gonna neuter sure passages and there's there's always a danger of doing that i agree.

[\[01:42:12\]](#transcript-01-42-12-1473) i certainly agree with that i agree.

[\[01:42:13\]](#transcript-01-42-13-1474) But I guess at the end of the day, when you stand, so we're all three standing before Christ, and Jesus says to you, Why are you here?

[\[01:42:21\]](#transcript-01-42-21-1475) And your answer is the same answer we would give.

[\[01:42:23\]](#transcript-01-42-23-1476) Yeah, same, same answer.

[\[01:42:24\]](#transcript-01-42-24-1477) Right.

[\[01:42:25\]](#transcript-01-42-25-1478) But then, how do you justify that in light of this?

[\[01:42:27\]](#transcript-01-42-27-1479) Well, okay.

[\[01:42:28\]](#transcript-01-42-28-1480) Are you not going to say, I have holiness?

[\[01:42:30\]](#transcript-01-42-30-1481) No, but I would.

[\[01:42:31\]](#transcript-01-42-31-1482) Okay.

[\[01:42:31\]](#transcript-01-42-31-1483) So now we're going to get off into a big, long thing.

[\[01:42:34\]](#transcript-01-42-34-1484) I'm saying this is why I struggle with your emphasis and what you're pointing to because it's inconsistent with the rest of scripture.

[\[01:42:41\]](#transcript-01-42-41-1485) So we have to ask ourselves.

[\[01:42:42\]](#transcript-01-42-42-1486) Well, I just, I just basically just said, like, what if I just quoted the author of Hebrews and just said exactly what he said?

[\[01:42:48\]](#transcript-01-42-48-1487) Right, but there's always a context to a statement, and that's what I'm kicking back saying.

[\[01:42:53\]](#transcript-01-42-53-1488) You can't make a statement.

[\[01:42:54\]](#transcript-01-42-54-1489) All right, here's one for I'm going to change the scenario.

[\[01:42:56\]](#transcript-01-42-56-1490) Okay.

[\[01:42:57\]](#transcript-01-42-57-1491) What if Justin comes to you and says, I do not like the way that John talks to his children.

[\[01:43:00\]](#transcript-01-43-00-1492) He's extremely harsh and forceful.

[\[01:43:03\]](#transcript-01-43-03-1493) And you're like, well, that's a pretty serious accusation towards a pastor.

[\[01:43:07\]](#transcript-01-43-07-1494) What happened?

[\[01:43:08\]](#transcript-01-43-08-1495) Well, we were standing on the road, and his little son ran out into the middle of the road.

[\[01:43:13\]](#transcript-01-43-13-1496) Could have got hit by a car.

[\[01:43:14\]](#transcript-01-43-14-1497) He screamed at him.

[\[01:43:14\]](#transcript-01-43-14-1498) There's a context to it, right?

[\[01:43:16\]](#transcript-01-43-16-1499) Yeah.

[\[01:43:16\]](#transcript-01-43-16-1500) So you're stating this, and I'm like, Yeah, but there's a context to what he's saying entirely entire Bible and book, which which I don't think you can divorce from it.

[\[01:43:23\]](#transcript-01-43-23-1501) Which, John, of course, you agree.

[\[01:43:24\]](#transcript-01-43-24-1502) I mean, so we I agree with you that there are there is a sense in which you can't, you cannot nuance everything.

[\[01:43:31\]](#transcript-01-43-31-1503) That's right.

[\[01:43:31\]](#transcript-01-43-31-1504) And you can't, because a lot of times a text, it loses its punch.

[\[01:43:35\]](#transcript-01-43-35-1505) I agree with that completely.

[\[01:43:37\]](#transcript-01-43-37-1506) And of course, you as well, given what I know of you, are going to agree that we preach that verse or these couple of verses in the context, not only of like Hebrews 12, but in the context of

[\[01:43:48\]](#transcript-01-43-48-1507) the letter, the sermon, if you will.

[\[01:43:51\]](#transcript-01-43-51-1508) Right.

[\[01:43:51\]](#transcript-01-43-51-1509) And so there is, there has to be a sense in which, even the way that that verse hits is informed by everything around it.

[\[01:44:00\]](#transcript-01-44-00-1510) Obviously.

[\[01:44:01\]](#transcript-01-44-01-1511) And so we all agree on that.

[\[01:44:02\]](#transcript-01-44-02-1512) Yeah, that's right.

[\[01:44:02\]](#transcript-01-44-02-1513) And I think for me, yeah, I have no rebuttal with the writer of scripture, of course, but I have no rebuttal, even with the force of the verse.

[\[01:44:14\]](#transcript-01-44-14-1514) What I would do though, too, is what I did just a minute ago: that even the words of holiness and the fact that we need it, it's like God is working in us, verse 10, that we will have

[\[01:44:26\]](#transcript-01-44-26-1515) it, and that's what the discipline is there for.

[\[01:44:29\]](#transcript-01-44-29-1516) So it's not like I'm going to say, uh, and just try to neuter, I'm trying to neuter verse 14, but I'm fear in terms of reverence, awe, like God's power, all of these things.

[\[01:44:40\]](#transcript-01-44-40-1517) And even where he's going to go, he's going to go Sinai and Zion.

[\[01:44:44\]](#transcript-01-44-44-1518) You know, it's like even this, and the fact that we've been given this unshakable kingdom, and all these things, and God is a consuming fire.

[\[01:44:50\]](#transcript-01-44-50-1519) I mean, because he's pointing them back to Mount Sinai, and he's contrasting it, though, with where they have now come, you know, to effectively to Christ and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and so the blood

[\[01:45:01\]](#transcript-01-45-01-1520) of Jesus that preaches a better word than the blood of Abel.

[\[01:45:04\]](#transcript-01-45-04-1521) And so, like all of that, there is fear and reverence and awe of God, and there is holiness that is required of us.

[\[01:45:12\]](#transcript-01-45-12-1522) And I understand that Joshua, guys, can we just move on?

[\[01:45:16\]](#transcript-01-45-16-1523) We got two more whole books to do.

[\[01:45:17\]](#transcript-01-45-17-1524) It's a five-second statement.

[\[01:45:19\]](#transcript-01-45-19-1525) I don't believe you, but let's see.

[\[01:45:21\]](#transcript-01-45-21-1526) So, I just want to for context's sake, I do believe he's talking about you need to look at discipline and holiness, and you're going to receive this discipline.

[\[01:45:30\]](#transcript-01-45-30-1527) Here's my last statement: okay, that we may share his holiness in light of the discipline.

[\[01:45:34\]](#transcript-01-45-34-1528) So, he's saying, if you think you're going to go through the Christian life without discipline, which produces holiness, then you're not going to see glory.

[\[01:45:41\]](#transcript-01-45-41-1529) The two are connected.

[\[01:45:42\]](#transcript-01-45-42-1530) Agree.

[\[01:45:42\]](#transcript-01-45-42-1531) The discipline of God and holiness.

[\[01:45:44\]](#transcript-01-45-44-1532) So you're just like, no, I don't want discipline from God.

[\[01:45:46\]](#transcript-01-45-46-1533) I don't know.

[\[01:45:46\]](#transcript-01-45-46-1534) Because then you're not going to see holiness.

[\[01:45:48\]](#transcript-01-45-48-1535) I think that is the context.

[\[01:45:50\]](#transcript-01-45-50-1536) Okay.

[\[01:45:50\]](#transcript-01-45-50-1537) So we'll do that.

[\[01:45:51\]](#transcript-01-45-51-1538) All right.

[\[01:45:52\]](#transcript-01-45-52-1539) Now that we've figured all of that out, we're going to move on to the second book.

[\[01:45:56\]](#transcript-01-45-56-1540) Am I really a Christian?

[\[01:45:58\]](#transcript-01-45-58-1541) Or is it Am I Really Saved?

[\[01:45:59\]](#transcript-01-45-59-1542) Am I Really a Christian by Mike McKinley?

[\[01:46:01\]](#transcript-01-46-01-1543) And it's been a long time.

[\[01:46:02\]](#transcript-01-46-02-1544) Wherein he walks through 1 John, and I think his goal, he wrote that, he's told me this, and he said it publicly.

[\[01:46:09\]](#transcript-01-46-09-1545) His goal with that book was primarily to people coming in falsely confident in their salvation, cultural Christians, walking them through 1 John, almost intentionally trying to get them to doubt, to examine themselves.

[\[01:46:25\]](#transcript-01-46-25-1546) But if you talk to him more about it, he says he thinks 1 John has this, and I think he's right here that it has this effect where it causes some who are falsely hopeful to doubt, and it

[\[01:46:37\]](#transcript-01-46-37-1547) causes some who are falsely doubting to hope.

[\[01:46:41\]](#transcript-01-46-41-1548) But, anyways, have you read Am I Really Saved?

[\[01:46:44\]](#transcript-01-46-44-1549) Okay, well, then you're not a part of this.

[\[01:46:45\]](#transcript-01-46-45-1550) Boo.

[\[01:46:45\]](#transcript-01-46-45-1551) Get out of here.

[\[01:46:46\]](#transcript-01-46-46-1552) Bro, admittedly, I have not, I don't know that I've read the book.

[\[01:46:51\]](#transcript-01-46-51-1553) Obviously, I know Mike and I love Mike.

[\[01:46:53\]](#transcript-01-46-53-1554) Yeah.

[\[01:46:54\]](#transcript-01-46-54-1555) And I'm aware of the book, but I don't think that I have read it.

[\[01:46:58\]](#transcript-01-46-58-1556) And so, in that regard, I'm hesitant to react in deep share.

[\[01:47:02\]](#transcript-01-47-02-1557) Great.

[\[01:47:02\]](#transcript-01-47-02-1558) Yeah.

[\[01:47:02\]](#transcript-01-47-02-1559) Well, then we'll move on to the first one.

[\[01:47:04\]](#transcript-01-47-04-1560) I've already said what I think about 1 John, which might probably be more indicative of how I might respond.

[\[01:47:11\]](#transcript-01-47-11-1561) Yeah.

[\[01:47:11\]](#transcript-01-47-11-1562) Yeah.

[\[01:47:12\]](#transcript-01-47-12-1563) Third book, classic, written by somebody who's long dead.

[\[01:47:18\]](#transcript-01-47-18-1564) Okay.

[\[01:47:19\]](#transcript-01-47-19-1565) Odds of you loving it are higher.

[\[01:47:21\]](#transcript-01-47-21-1566) JC Riles, Holiness.

[\[01:47:26\]](#transcript-01-47-26-1567) I have mixed feelings on that book.

[\[01:47:28\]](#transcript-01-47-28-1568) There we go.

[\[01:47:30\]](#transcript-01-47-30-1569) Yeah.

[\[01:47:30\]](#transcript-01-47-30-1570) And he's not going to see this.

[\[01:47:31\]](#transcript-01-47-31-1571) So speak frankly.

[\[01:47:33\]](#transcript-01-47-33-1572) Well, that's not true because one day I will meet him.

[\[01:47:38\]](#transcript-01-47-38-1573) But I don't think anybody at that point will care about this.

[\[01:47:41\]](#transcript-01-47-41-1574) Yeah, if JC Ryles really stressing over what we say on Room for Nuance podcast, heaven ain't what we thought it was.

[\[01:47:46\]](#transcript-01-47-46-1575) Yeah, I mean, listen, I think the book has a lot of correct observations for like at times it makes really good observations about

[\[01:47:56\]](#transcript-01-47-56-1576) um i'll be worded this way

[\[01:47:59\]](#transcript-01-47-59-1577) there are times where in Christian culture, people are confused on what is appropriate and what is not appropriate.

[\[01:48:07\]](#transcript-01-48-07-1578) I think we're in this issue right now with our culture.

[\[01:48:10\]](#transcript-01-48-10-1579) Like, there's so much sensuality in the church, that I think at times we kind of have to, unfortunately, we're going to be more blunt these days.

[\[01:48:18\]](#transcript-01-48-18-1580) I'm like, I thought this was like, you know, this.

[\[01:48:22\]](#transcript-01-48-22-1581) So, Ryle at times, I think, is writing in that context where he's a little bit more blunt, and I appreciate that about some of it because, at first, a long time ago, I would have had a problem with

[\[01:48:33\]](#transcript-01-48-33-1582) the bluntness of it.

[\[01:48:34\]](#transcript-01-48-34-1583) But I even realizing I've got congregants where I'm like, little pastor time under your belt.

[\[01:48:40\]](#transcript-01-48-40-1584) You're like, that was actually really good.

[\[01:48:41\]](#transcript-01-48-41-1585) He did it.

[\[01:48:42\]](#transcript-01-48-42-1586) Said it that way.

[\[01:48:42\]](#transcript-01-48-42-1587) Yeah, for sure.

[\[01:48:44\]](#transcript-01-48-44-1588) But at times, then the confusion becomes where I struggle with some of the motivation for holiness, right?

[\[01:48:52\]](#transcript-01-48-52-1589) So let me put it this way.

[\[01:48:54\]](#transcript-01-48-54-1590) This is what is holiness.

[\[01:48:56\]](#transcript-01-48-56-1591) I thought it was good.

[\[01:48:58\]](#transcript-01-48-58-1592) What motivates me to be holy, I struggle with.

[\[01:49:03\]](#transcript-01-49-03-1593) Holistically, or just in part, in part, right?

[\[01:49:06\]](#transcript-01-49-06-1594) And it's been a while since I've read it.

[\[01:49:07\]](#transcript-01-49-07-1595) But there are times where it's like, I don't feel like it's looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith, to be my holiness.

[\[01:49:14\]](#transcript-01-49-14-1596) Like, what we will be, we are not yet.

[\[01:49:16\]](#transcript-01-49-16-1597) So I want to be like him, or even 2 Corinthians 4, when he talks about that Jesus is veiled to us right now, and that we are looking at the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

[\[01:49:29\]](#transcript-01-49-29-1598) And as we do that, we are being transformed into his image, right?

[\[01:49:32\]](#transcript-01-49-32-1599) It's always looking at Jesus for the motivation for our holiness, right?

[\[01:49:36\]](#transcript-01-49-36-1600) And at times, I felt like it's more of the fear of judgment if I'm not holy is where I struggled in that I will never be holiness.

[\[01:49:45\]](#transcript-01-49-45-1601) I will never be holy enough to not warrant God's judgment, right?

[\[01:49:50\]](#transcript-01-49-50-1602) That is, that is just, I'm always going to be judged for my lack of holiness.

[\[01:49:54\]](#transcript-01-49-54-1603) It's always going to happen.

[\[01:49:56\]](#transcript-01-49-56-1604) So, therefore, I struggle to look at my holiness in that way.

[\[01:50:00\]](#transcript-01-50-00-1605) Versus, his righteousness covers me, his blood covers me.

[\[01:50:04\]](#transcript-01-50-04-1606) And now I want to reflect that for his glory, as failing as it's going to be, and for the benefits of others.

[\[01:50:10\]](#transcript-01-50-10-1607) So it just felt like the Ryle book, that's the part of it that I felt like I was like, I don't agree with the motivation for holiness.

[\[01:50:17\]](#transcript-01-50-17-1608) All right, so I'm going to, I'm going to just kind of take, I had had you, Sean, lead us.

[\[01:50:22\]](#transcript-01-50-22-1609) I'm going to take this for a second if you're going to take it for a second.

[\[01:50:26\]](#transcript-01-50-26-1610) Because I want to speak to a few things just because that are popping around in my brain.

[\[01:50:29\]](#transcript-01-50-29-1611) I'm not going to speak specifically to Holiness by Ryle.

[\[01:50:32\]](#transcript-01-50-32-1612) I think the book is largely good.

[\[01:50:34\]](#transcript-01-50-34-1613) Yeah.

[\[01:50:34\]](#transcript-01-50-34-1614) And would I mean, probably share John's sentiment, maybe to a slightly differing degree.

[\[01:50:39\]](#transcript-01-50-39-1615) A question that I get asked a lot, so this is related, uh, is what do you think of the Puritans now?

[\[01:50:47\]](#transcript-01-50-47-1616) First of all, Very broad question.

[\[01:50:50\]](#transcript-01-50-50-1617) that's my reaction immediately.

[\[01:50:51\]](#transcript-01-50-51-1618) It's like me, you asking me, what do I think of evangelicals?

[\[01:50:54\]](#transcript-01-50-54-1619) Because Puritans is technically, that's just the English Reformation.

[\[01:50:57\]](#transcript-01-50-57-1620) Non-conformists, just correct.

[\[01:50:59\]](#transcript-01-50-59-1621) Yeah, exactly.

[\[01:51:00\]](#transcript-01-51-00-1622) I mean, it's the English Reformation.

[\[01:51:01\]](#transcript-01-51-01-1623) And so, of course, I say, well, it's case by case.

[\[01:51:07\]](#transcript-01-51-07-1624) So there are Puritan authors, and John, I know you're the same way.

[\[01:51:10\]](#transcript-01-51-10-1625) There are Puritan authors that we love.

[\[01:51:13\]](#transcript-01-51-13-1626) I mean, thoroughly love.

[\[01:51:15\]](#transcript-01-51-15-1627) And then there are some Puritan authors where we're like, you know, maybe not as helpful, right?

[\[01:51:19\]](#transcript-01-51-19-1628) This book, not that book.

[\[01:51:20\]](#transcript-01-51-20-1629) Correct.

[\[01:51:21\]](#transcript-01-51-21-1630) Correct.

[\[01:51:22\]](#transcript-01-51-22-1631) So, like, for example, I mean, and we don't need to get into this because we don't need to get into like the marrow controversy in Scotland and so Scottish Presbyterianism, I won't do that to us right now.

[\[01:51:32\]](#transcript-01-51-32-1632) But one of my favorite Puritans is Thomas Boston, who is from that era, 18th century in Scotland.

[\[01:51:41\]](#transcript-01-51-41-1633) You know, I mean, John Owen, love John Owen.

[\[01:51:43\]](#transcript-01-51-43-1634) I mean, we could name others.

[\[01:51:45\]](#transcript-01-51-45-1635) Some, yeah, John Cahoon is another.

[\[01:51:48\]](#transcript-01-51-48-1636) But then, like, for example, the reason I bring this up as well.

[\[01:51:52\]](#transcript-01-51-52-1637) So, like Richard Baxter, not a fan.

[\[01:51:56\]](#transcript-01-51-56-1638) And I don't know where you stand on that.

[\[01:51:58\]](#transcript-01-51-58-1639) And that's.

[\[01:51:58\]](#transcript-01-51-58-1640) I love dying thoughts.

[\[01:51:59\]](#transcript-01-51-59-1641) Don't really trust them on justification.

[\[01:52:01\]](#transcript-01-52-01-1642) Exactly.

[\[01:52:02\]](#transcript-01-52-02-1643) So, exactly.

[\[01:52:02\]](#transcript-01-52-02-1644) So that's a lot of the justification and sanctification, and how he kind of collapses those categories.

[\[01:52:07\]](#transcript-01-52-07-1645) And I would agree, right?

[\[01:52:09\]](#transcript-01-52-09-1646) So there's a book by a man named Walter Marshall called The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification.

[\[01:52:16\]](#transcript-01-52-16-1647) Marshall had been influenced in his younger days and may have even been a member or a congregant of Baxter's.

[\[01:52:23\]](#transcript-01-52-23-1648) And so his book, I think, is largely informed by some of the ways in which Baxter's confusion on justification and sanctification, I think, had affected him as a young man.

[\[01:52:33\]](#transcript-01-52-33-1649) And then he's writing in a kind of the way that we are maybe aiming to emphasize sanctification and a pursuit of holiness in terms of this emphasis on Christ and even the emphasis of kind of this given life,

[\[01:52:48\]](#transcript-01-52-48-1650) and where he makes a statement where, and this is not a monogism, synergism conversation.

[\[01:52:53\]](#transcript-01-52-53-1651) I'm not even trying to introduce all that because it depends on how you define those terms, right?

[\[01:52:56\]](#transcript-01-52-56-1652) When it comes to sanctification.

[\[01:52:58\]](#transcript-01-52-58-1653) But he makes an observation that's really good where he says, you know, where there are many who are very happy to acknowledge that they have a justification that is via a righteousness that is wrought by God, that is

[\[01:53:09\]](#transcript-01-53-09-1654) wrought by Jesus.

[\[01:53:11\]](#transcript-01-53-11-1655) But then they think that they will be sanctified by a righteousness that is wrought of themselves, right?

[\[01:53:17\]](#transcript-01-53-17-1656) And he's pointing out that kind of collapsing and that confusion that exists there.

[\[01:53:21\]](#transcript-01-53-21-1657) And so, I think what John and I are largely contending for is that even our sanctification is a holiness and a righteousness that is wrought by God.

[\[01:53:31\]](#transcript-01-53-31-1658) And he uses various means, of course, and even various kinds of emphases and teaching to accomplish it.

[\[01:53:36\]](#transcript-01-53-36-1659) But I still, I do think at the end of the day, even when it comes to the pursuit of holiness, we're doing that not primarily, not to attain something that isn't ours in terms of peace with God.

[\[01:53:50\]](#transcript-01-53-50-1660) We're not chasing after something that has not been given to us, but we're pursuing holiness because of what God has done for us, because of whom God has made us in His Son.

[\[01:54:01\]](#transcript-01-54-01-1661) And because God has done everything and has assured us of the end, we strive.

[\[01:54:09\]](#transcript-01-54-09-1662) And that's where I think people trip: is that, and there are people, brother, to be very clear that are in the kind of confessional reformed world that do get out over their skis?

[\[01:54:18\]](#transcript-01-54-18-1663) And John and I would be the first to say, Yeah, they've over-course-corrected because you cannot even use for some of these folks, you can't even use the language of striving.

[\[01:54:26\]](#transcript-01-54-26-1664) That's bad.

[\[01:54:27\]](#transcript-01-54-27-1665) Like, if we can't use the language of striving, if we can't use words like repent, if we can't use words like obey, work, obey, like we've got a serious problem.

[\[01:54:38\]](#transcript-01-54-38-1666) You know, and so I just want to be very plain about all of that.

[\[01:54:41\]](#transcript-01-54-41-1667) In our disagreements or our two or three degrees of separation, we are all for striving and working and pursuing.

[\[01:54:50\]](#transcript-01-54-50-1668) We're just trying to maybe highlight the motivations and the emphasis may be slightly different.

[\[01:54:55\]](#transcript-01-54-55-1669) Yeah.

[\[01:54:55\]](#transcript-01-54-55-1670) The reason why I asked is because I think those two modern, one a little older, probably some of the most popular books on holiness, sanctification, which is all bound up with assurance, which is kind of where you guys

[\[01:55:06\]](#transcript-01-55-06-1671) are.

[\[01:55:07\]](#transcript-01-55-07-1672) That's your subject matter to some degree.

[\[01:55:09\]](#transcript-01-55-09-1673) To some degree.

[\[01:55:12\]](#transcript-01-55-12-1674) So, in light of those thoughts about those books, do you have a recommendation?

[\[01:55:16\]](#transcript-01-55-16-1675) Like, this is our number one, when people have questions, and I'm like, You can't be in our church, but here's a resource we want you to take and read.

[\[01:55:22\]](#transcript-01-55-22-1676) You got your book, you already gave that a shout-out.

[\[01:55:25\]](#transcript-01-55-25-1677) But any other, like, really good resources on sanctification and assurance, they can be together in one book, they can be different books.

[\[01:55:32\]](#transcript-01-55-32-1678) Doesn't matter.

[\[01:55:33\]](#transcript-01-55-33-1679) Just give them, give them.

[\[01:55:35\]](#transcript-01-55-35-1680) I mean, Walter Marshall, obviously.

[\[01:55:36\]](#transcript-01-55-36-1681) Walter Marshall book, I just mentioned, The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification, is probably my favorite piece on sanctification, in particular.

[\[01:55:45\]](#transcript-01-55-45-1682) I think it's really good.

[\[01:55:46\]](#transcript-01-55-46-1683) I would also, some of the good, so John Cahoon's treatise on the law and the gospel, and Cahoon is spelled weird: C-O-L-Q-U.

[\[01:55:55\]](#transcript-01-55-55-1684) Yeah.

[\[01:55:56\]](#transcript-01-55-56-1685) It is weird.

[\[01:55:57\]](#transcript-01-55-57-1686) I thought you were saying Calhoun weird, yeah, but no, no, John Cahoon.

[\[01:56:01\]](#transcript-01-56-01-1687) Uh, so he's got a book called A Treatise on the Law and the Gospel, where he does a lot of really good work, though, even talking about the law in ways that we have somewhat in this podcast that

[\[01:56:10\]](#transcript-01-56-10-1688) I think are very useful.

[\[01:56:12\]](#transcript-01-56-12-1689) As far as a book on insurance, I mean, I think very quickly becoming a modern classic is gentle and lowly, you know, by Dane Ordland is beautiful.

[\[01:56:19\]](#transcript-01-56-19-1690) I mean, everybody loves it for a reason.

[\[01:56:21\]](#transcript-01-56-21-1691) I didn't know how much I needed that book until I was like the second chapter in, and I was like, oh, exactly.

[\[01:56:26\]](#transcript-01-56-26-1692) I didn't want to read it at first.

[\[01:56:27\]](#transcript-01-56-27-1693) I was like, everyone is tired of this book.

[\[01:56:29\]](#transcript-01-56-29-1694) I'm confirming.

[\[01:56:30\]](#transcript-01-56-30-1695) Exactly.

[\[01:56:31\]](#transcript-01-56-31-1696) Dude, I was two chapters in, and I was like, everyone needs this book.

[\[01:56:35\]](#transcript-01-56-35-1697) It's so good.

[\[01:56:36\]](#transcript-01-56-36-1698) So, and then it became very controversial.

[\[01:56:39\]](#transcript-01-56-39-1699) The Bruised Read, of course, by Sibs.

[\[01:56:42\]](#transcript-01-56-42-1700) A little less accessible.

[\[01:56:43\]](#transcript-01-56-43-1701) Yeah, but all.

[\[01:56:44\]](#transcript-01-56-44-1702) I've tried to get a lot of people.

[\[01:56:46\]](#transcript-01-56-46-1703) I can get people to read Gentle and Lowly.

[\[01:56:48\]](#transcript-01-56-48-1704) Well, I think that's why it's so powerful because it is so consumable.

[\[01:56:51\]](#transcript-01-56-51-1705) Yeah, that's right.

[\[01:56:52\]](#transcript-01-56-52-1706) I'm just going to make a couple other book recs that are not related.

[\[01:56:56\]](#transcript-01-56-56-1707) Sure.

[\[01:56:57\]](#transcript-01-56-57-1708) I think that the whole Christ by Sinclair Ferguson, and he deals with that thing that I've mentioned, that I'm not going to talk about controversy.

[\[01:57:04\]](#transcript-01-57-04-1709) But he does some great law and gospel, the offer of the entire, like the whole Christ, like in holding him out to sinners.

[\[01:57:11\]](#transcript-01-57-11-1710) And the offer of Jesus is not conditioned upon anything in you, I think is really good and helpful when it comes to this assurance and peace with God conversation.

[\[01:57:21\]](#transcript-01-57-21-1711) Any other recommendations, brother?

[\[01:57:24\]](#transcript-01-57-24-1712) Whitehorse then put out a little book on law gospel distinction because what confuses most of your assurance is putting the law back in your gospel.

[\[01:57:32\]](#transcript-01-57-32-1713) So that's a great little book that I would recommend reading.

[\[01:57:35\]](#transcript-01-57-35-1714) I think you can get it on their website.

[\[01:57:36\]](#transcript-01-57-36-1715) It's just called Law Gospel Distinction.

[\[01:57:38\]](#transcript-01-57-38-1716) Yeah.

[\[01:57:38\]](#transcript-01-57-38-1717) Nice, right?

[\[01:57:40\]](#transcript-01-57-40-1718) There it is.

[\[01:57:41\]](#transcript-01-57-41-1719) I think you took the wheel.

[\[01:57:43\]](#transcript-01-57-43-1720) I did.

[\[01:57:44\]](#transcript-01-57-44-1721) What now, Captain?

[\[01:57:45\]](#transcript-01-57-45-1722) Because you were asking, and I kind of wanted to pivot and speak about Puritans and all of those kinds of things.

[\[01:57:52\]](#transcript-01-57-52-1723) And then to bring up you know Baxter and Marshall and the like.

[\[01:57:56\]](#transcript-01-57-56-1724) I was trying to take the wheel on this whole like book, author.

[\[01:57:59\]](#transcript-01-57-59-1725) What do we like to read?

[\[01:58:00\]](#transcript-01-58-00-1726) What do we recommend?

[\[01:58:01\]](#transcript-01-58-01-1727) Which I feel like we've kind of concluded.

[\[01:58:03\]](#transcript-01-58-03-1728) Yeah, first I'm happy to hand the wheel back to you.

[\[01:58:05\]](#transcript-01-58-05-1729) I have one, I have one thing that would be fun to throw at you, and we could, we could all three talk about it for sure.

[\[01:58:12\]](#transcript-01-58-12-1730) The big if you want to know what this is all boiled down to, because we kind of are picking passages and doctrines and books.

[\[01:58:18\]](#transcript-01-58-18-1731) If you really want to know what this all boiled down to, it is a matter of perspective and emphasis.

[\[01:58:24\]](#transcript-01-58-24-1732) So, we believe that the job of the preacher, according to scripture, is to feed and protect the sheep.

[\[01:58:33\]](#transcript-01-58-33-1733) What does Jesus tell Peter?

[\[01:58:35\]](#transcript-01-58-35-1734) Feed my sheep, right?

[\[01:58:36\]](#transcript-01-58-36-1735) So we're going to feed them assurance based upon Christ's work.

[\[01:58:41\]](#transcript-01-58-41-1736) We're going to feed them Christ, effectively, right?

[\[01:58:43\]](#transcript-01-58-43-1737) We're going to protect them against anything that would take their eyes off of Christ.

[\[01:58:49\]](#transcript-01-58-49-1738) That would be the argument of our emphasis.

[\[01:58:52\]](#transcript-01-58-52-1739) What would you, how would you describe, like, okay, this is what I emphasize, or how I understand scripture to be emphasized to believers.

[\[01:59:00\]](#transcript-01-59-00-1740) And you may agree, disagree, yeah, no, I think it's a very tiny disagreement.

[\[01:59:05\]](#transcript-01-59-05-1741) I think I do believe more in a call to self-examination, and you can put whatever language on that.

[\[01:59:10\]](#transcript-01-59-10-1742) Yeah, of course, sure.

[\[01:59:12\]](#transcript-01-59-12-1743) I'm of the school of for every one look at yourself, take 10 looks at Christ.

[\[01:59:16\]](#transcript-01-59-16-1744) McShane, right?

[\[01:59:17\]](#transcript-01-59-17-1745) Yeah, that's right.

[\[01:59:18\]](#transcript-01-59-18-1746) But like, I do think there needs to be a look at yourself, and not to find the grounding of my justification, but to find evidence that I'm not deceived about my justification.

[\[01:59:28\]](#transcript-01-59-28-1747) And there's individual and corporate aspects of that.

[\[01:59:31\]](#transcript-01-59-31-1748) But even that ability to look at myself is something that is empowered by God's grace and God's grace alone.

[\[01:59:37\]](#transcript-01-59-37-1749) Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

[\[01:59:39\]](#transcript-01-59-39-1750) For it is He who works in you, you know, but the will and to work.

[\[01:59:42\]](#transcript-01-59-42-1751) That's right.

[\[01:59:43\]](#transcript-01-59-43-1752) yeah, so yeah, I think that's where I would be as a matter of emphasis or as a matter of practice.

[\[01:59:49\]](#transcript-01-59-49-1753) Well, hopefully, those two things are lined up like perfect circles.

[\[01:59:53\]](#transcript-01-59-53-1754) Two perfect circles.

[\[01:59:53\]](#transcript-01-59-53-1755) I think so.

[\[01:59:54\]](#transcript-01-59-54-1756) Like, we would agree in the practice because we do practice that every week.

[\[01:59:57\]](#transcript-01-59-57-1757) We read the law to them, ask them to examine their heart, confess their sin before the Lord,

[\[02:00:02\]](#transcript-02-00-02-1758) so that we can lead them to feeding in Christ.

[\[02:00:04\]](#transcript-02-00-04-1759) So, the emphasis is always Christ for you, not examination of self.

[\[02:00:09\]](#transcript-02-00-09-1760) Yeah, I think, again, like, I think there are multiple places in scripture where you see the call to examine self is you're examining yourself to see, am I really in Christ?

[\[02:00:21\]](#transcript-02-00-21-1761) And is Christ really in me?

[\[02:00:22\]](#transcript-02-00-22-1762) Yeah.

[\[02:00:24\]](#transcript-02-00-24-1763) So I so now that we're, that's, I think, the heart between perspectives.

[\[02:00:28\]](#transcript-02-00-28-1764) I would say that there's a way in which you can examine yourself that is actually examining Christ.

[\[02:00:34\]](#transcript-02-00-34-1765) You look at yourself to see Christ.

[\[02:00:37\]](#transcript-02-00-37-1766) Can't do it too much, can't do it too often, can't do it the wrong way.

[\[02:00:40\]](#transcript-02-00-40-1767) But I don't think there's any real ability to do the fruit inspection that I think scripture calls us to without that.

[\[02:00:47\]](#transcript-02-00-47-1768) Yeah.

[\[02:00:48\]](#transcript-02-00-48-1769) Yeah, there's a lot we're saying the same thing and wording it different.

[\[02:00:52\]](#transcript-02-00-52-1770) Funny how that works.

[\[02:00:55\]](#transcript-02-00-55-1771) Anyway, there's a anyway.

[\[02:00:58\]](#transcript-02-00-58-1772) There's a book.

[\[02:00:59\]](#transcript-02-00-59-1773) There's a book.

[\[02:01:00\]](#transcript-02-01-00-1774) There's an old book.

[\[02:01:00\]](#transcript-02-01-00-1775) It's not even in print.

[\[02:01:02\]](#transcript-02-01-02-1776) I think it Jay Collier from RHB, Reformation Heritage Books.

[\[02:01:06\]](#transcript-02-01-06-1777) he sent it to us in like this digitized format.

[\[02:01:10\]](#transcript-02-01-10-1778) I don't have my computer with me, and I might butcher some of this.

[\[02:01:12\]](#transcript-02-01-12-1779) I think it's William Cuthbert, I believe, is the author, written in like 1750, The Right Use of Marks and evidences, or something like this is the name of the book.

[\[02:01:22\]](#transcript-02-01-22-1780) 100 years later, 1850, it's republished with a lengthy preface by Horatius Bonner.

[\[02:01:29\]](#transcript-02-01-29-1781) And very, the reason I even bring it up is because it's a very interesting treatment of there are good and bad ways to use marks and evidences, like good and bad ways to talk about fruit, evidence, et cetera.

[\[02:01:45\]](#transcript-02-01-45-1782) And we all, of course, agree.

[\[02:01:47\]](#transcript-02-01-47-1783) And where there, again, it's just, it's a couple of degrees of separation where we might push and sharpen each other on what are the appropriate ways to use marks and evidences in preaching or in the Christian life in

[\[02:02:00\]](#transcript-02-02-00-1784) general.

[\[02:02:02\]](#transcript-02-02-02-1785) Again, rowing the boat in the same direction, the three of us.

[\[02:02:05\]](#transcript-02-02-05-1786) But yeah, there's just that tiny little bit of difference, which is okay.

[\[02:02:10\]](#transcript-02-02-10-1787) And I'm not going to go into all the stuff that's written there in that lengthy preface.

[\[02:02:14\]](#transcript-02-02-14-1788) I think it is worth a read.

[\[02:02:15\]](#transcript-02-02-15-1789) And I wish RHB would publish it in print.

[\[02:02:18\]](#transcript-02-02-18-1790) Come on, let's get it out.

[\[02:02:19\]](#transcript-02-02-19-1791) What's the hold of?

[\[02:02:20\]](#transcript-02-02-20-1792) They're doing good things.

[\[02:02:20\]](#transcript-02-02-20-1793) They're doing great things.

[\[02:02:21\]](#transcript-02-02-21-1794) Yeah.

[\[02:02:22\]](#transcript-02-02-22-1795) Deprima published his book on Spurgeon through there, which talks about holding things in tension.

[\[02:02:27\]](#transcript-02-02-27-1796) His did have you seen Alex Duprima's book on Spurgeon and the new Mercy Ministry?

[\[02:02:31\]](#transcript-02-02-31-1797) Oh, the Mercy Ministry.

[\[02:02:32\]](#transcript-02-02-32-1798) Yeah, he's also got a new Spurgeon in a poor Spurgeon the Poor.

[\[02:02:36\]](#transcript-02-02-36-1799) That was so good.

[\[02:02:36\]](#transcript-02-02-36-1800) That was a corrective for me.

[\[02:02:38\]](#transcript-02-02-38-1801) I was, I thought we were doing pretty good with that, and I read it and I was like, man, I think we can do better.

[\[02:02:43\]](#transcript-02-02-43-1802) Yeah, I have not read it.

[\[02:02:44\]](#transcript-02-02-44-1803) I mean, I know, and I know Alex.

[\[02:02:46\]](#transcript-02-02-46-1804) I have not read that book yet.

[\[02:02:47\]](#transcript-02-02-47-1805) No, we may end up having Alex on our podcast to talk about Spurgeon in general.

[\[02:02:53\]](#transcript-02-02-53-1806) He's so sharp, so clear, godly brother.

[\[02:02:57\]](#transcript-02-02-57-1807) Yeah, I hope you do.

[\[02:02:58\]](#transcript-02-02-58-1808) Well, now that I've said it in front of God and everyone, uh, you know, so what did you say?

[\[02:03:04\]](#transcript-02-03-04-1809) Oh, I was saying room for nuanced stuff.

[\[02:03:05\]](#transcript-02-03-05-1810) I don't really have much to say, but that was right.

[\[02:03:07\]](#transcript-02-03-07-1811) So, I mean, even for the theocast audience, yeah, why don't you briefly because we're doing a great job with brief today?

[\[02:03:14\]](#transcript-02-03-14-1812) Why don't you talk a little bit about room for noise, the reason for the podcast in general?

[\[02:03:18\]](#transcript-02-03-18-1813) And then that may spur a number of questions that I might want to ask you.

[\[02:03:21\]](#transcript-02-03-21-1814) Well, brother, even in this conversation, I've just appreciated your willingness to like, okay, let's acknowledge some disagreements.

[\[02:03:29\]](#transcript-02-03-29-1815) Let's not blow things out of proportion.

[\[02:03:31\]](#transcript-02-03-31-1816) Let's recognize that we have a lot more in common than we have in different ways.

[\[02:03:36\]](#transcript-02-03-36-1817) That's right.

[\[02:03:37\]](#transcript-02-03-37-1818) And let's not just really revert to that second-level separationist impulse, which lives in all of us.

[\[02:03:44\]](#transcript-02-03-44-1819) And

[\[02:03:45\]](#transcript-02-03-45-1820) let's not give even a little bit of oxygen to that impulse because if we do, we're going to be in a dinghy alone trying to do gospel ministry.

[\[02:03:52\]](#transcript-02-03-52-1821) Yeah.

[\[02:03:52\]](#transcript-02-03-52-1822) And if you're going to go pastor a church of like eight people who agree with you on the other side.

[\[02:03:55\]](#transcript-02-03-55-1823) Yeah, that's a dinghy.

[\[02:03:58\]](#transcript-02-03-58-1824) Just me and my little dinghy in this violent ocean of spiritual warfare.

[\[02:04:02\]](#transcript-02-04-02-1825) You know,

[\[02:04:05\]](#transcript-02-04-05-1826) you know, I was we did during during the really hot and heavy CRT stuff with a with a podcast called Defend and Confirm, me and Russell Berger did a series on critical theory.

[\[02:04:20\]](#transcript-02-04-20-1827) And

[\[02:04:22\]](#transcript-02-04-22-1828) it was helpful for people who had a lot of pastors for the first time were like, What's critical race theory?

[\[02:04:28\]](#transcript-02-04-28-1829) And we were able to just send them the series.

[\[02:04:30\]](#transcript-02-04-30-1830) And then, you know, okay, that well, that was really helpful, right?

[\[02:04:33\]](#transcript-02-04-33-1831) But I got invited onto a podcast to talk about critical theory, and they said, Well, you have okay, we got 15 minutes.

[\[02:04:41\]](#transcript-02-04-41-1832) Oh, I'm like, Whoa, okay, and then I found that that's just kind of happening a lot.

[\[02:04:48\]](#transcript-02-04-48-1833) In light of what's happening, sort of with our media, people just feel like they have to go shorter, shorter, shorter.

[\[02:04:55\]](#transcript-02-04-55-1834) I mean, even think about the way you use YouTube.

[\[02:04:57\]](#transcript-02-04-57-1835) You used to go on YouTube and you'd watch like maybe a 30-minute video, maybe a 20-minute video.

[\[02:05:02\]](#transcript-02-05-02-1836) Now, if you're not doing those 60-second reels, you know, like your presence on YouTube is diminished because that's all people really want.

[\[02:05:09\]](#transcript-02-05-09-1837) How often have you clicked on a YouTube video and saw that it was like 15 minutes and you just click right back.

[\[02:05:13\]](#transcript-02-05-13-1838) You can't make that investment.

[\[02:05:14\]](#transcript-02-05-14-1839) You can't do that.

[\[02:05:16\]](#transcript-02-05-16-1840) So I just thought, okay, Christians are trying to have really complicated, really difficult, really emotionally fraught, spiritually significant conversations on a time crunch.

[\[02:05:28\]](#transcript-02-05-28-1841) And I just think that's bad.

[\[02:05:29\]](#transcript-02-05-29-1842) I think it's dangerous, it's unhelpful, it's not going to work for unity.

[\[02:05:33\]](#transcript-02-05-33-1843) We need room, plenty of time for nuance, right?

[\[02:05:37\]](#transcript-02-05-37-1844) Just as we've even been having these conversations, you've been like, well, this, but not quite that, right?

[\[02:05:42\]](#transcript-02-05-42-1845) that's nuance.

[\[02:05:43\]](#transcript-02-05-43-1846) And I don't think it's a liberal word.

[\[02:05:45\]](#transcript-02-05-45-1847) I don't think it's a postmodern neologism.

[\[02:05:47\]](#transcript-02-05-47-1848) I don't think we should abandon it.

[\[02:05:48\]](#transcript-02-05-48-1849) I think it's a good word.

[\[02:05:49\]](#transcript-02-05-49-1850) We just don't need to let liberals co-opt it.

[\[02:05:51\]](#transcript-02-05-51-1851) Okay.

[\[02:05:51\]](#transcript-02-05-51-1852) It's our word, just like all the other good words are our words.

[\[02:05:56\]](#transcript-02-05-56-1853) And so, and then I also started realizing that, kind of typical of evangelicals, that they kind of understood the direction that the culture was going, but they also kind of missed it.

[\[02:06:07\]](#transcript-02-06-07-1854) And one of the ways that they missed it was they didn't realize that one of the fastest-growing forms of media in the world is long-form podcasts, Joe Rogan, Lex Friedman.

[\[02:06:18\]](#transcript-02-06-18-1855) And it's not just for the weird ayahuasca stories.

[\[02:06:20\]](#transcript-02-06-20-1856) You know, it's Rogan is good at bringing on a subject matter expert who spent their whole lives for 10 years or 20 years or five years, thinking about something and writing about things and speaking about things and changing

[\[02:06:33\]](#transcript-02-06-33-1857) their minds about things.

[\[02:06:34\]](#transcript-02-06-34-1858) And he'll bring them on and he'll just let them go, you know, and he'll ask good questions.

[\[02:06:38\]](#transcript-02-06-38-1859) He'll press them a little bit here and there, and I'll back off and kind of just, I mean, they're the subject matter expert, not him, you know, and then it'll back off and let them talk.

[\[02:06:46\]](#transcript-02-06-46-1860) And you started seeing a lot of that.

[\[02:06:49\]](#transcript-02-06-49-1861) And I said, well, we should really be doing this with this complicated stuff in the church, you know.

[\[02:06:54\]](#transcript-02-06-54-1862) So get Dane Ortland on.

[\[02:06:57\]](#transcript-02-06-57-1863) Let him talk about gentle and lowly.

[\[02:07:00\]](#transcript-02-07-00-1864) Say, hey, well, these masters, guys, they critiqued your book in this way.

[\[02:07:03\]](#transcript-02-07-03-1865) How would you respond to that?

[\[02:07:05\]](#transcript-02-07-05-1866) And not, hey, how would you respond to that?

[\[02:07:06\]](#transcript-02-07-06-1867) And by the way, you have six minutes, you know, right?

[\[02:07:10\]](#transcript-02-07-10-1868) And uh, so that's what we started with.

[\[02:07:13\]](#transcript-02-07-13-1869) And brothers, I have to say, it has been incredible.

[\[02:07:17\]](#transcript-02-07-17-1870) It just, just to let, I mean, you guys, I didn't get really to your origin story, but you didn't end up specializing in law gospel stuff, assurance stuff, sanctification stuff for no reason.

[\[02:07:31\]](#transcript-02-07-31-1871) That's right.

[\[02:07:31\]](#transcript-02-07-31-1872) Right?

[\[02:07:32\]](#transcript-02-07-32-1873) Right.

[\[02:07:32\]](#transcript-02-07-32-1874) There's been a lot of blood and sweat and tears and repentance and joy and glory wrapped up in this.

[\[02:07:39\]](#transcript-02-07-39-1875) And I don't want to interview you guys and be like, okay, in 30 minutes, give me what you got.

[\[02:07:46\]](#transcript-02-07-46-1876) And I'm so glad that that's not what this conversation was.

[\[02:07:49\]](#transcript-02-07-49-1877) So, when I get Matthew Martins on, one of the best lawyers in the country, who also knows the Bible better than any lawyer in the country, to come on and talk about reforming criminal justice from a Christian perspective,

[\[02:08:01\]](#transcript-02-08-01-1878) I man, it was so good just to give him like three plus hours to talk about that stuff, and so yeah, that's what we're trying to do.

[\[02:08:08\]](#transcript-02-08-08-1879) Uh, it's it's a little tricky, it's a little tricky.

[\[02:08:11\]](#transcript-02-08-11-1880) I mainly want our stuff to be evergreen.

[\[02:08:14\]](#transcript-02-08-14-1881) I don't want to get into, but like you said earlier, brother, some things come up and they just kind of need to be addressed.

[\[02:08:21\]](#transcript-02-08-21-1882) So I did an interview with Douglas Wilson and Joe Rigny about the Moscow mood and theonomy, just because, man, it's already in our churches.

[\[02:08:31\]](#transcript-02-08-31-1883) So I could spend a lot of time saying, Don't look at that, don't look at that, don't look at that.

[\[02:08:35\]](#transcript-02-08-35-1884) Or I could just say, Well, we'll look at it, we'll talk about it.

[\[02:08:38\]](#transcript-02-08-38-1885) Kind of suck some of the oxygen out of that fire.

[\[02:08:40\]](#transcript-02-08-40-1886) So that's kind of what we've been trying to do.

[\[02:08:42\]](#transcript-02-08-42-1887) Now I got to ramble.

[\[02:08:44\]](#transcript-02-08-44-1888) No, that's fine.

[\[02:08:45\]](#transcript-02-08-45-1889) That's good.

[\[02:08:45\]](#transcript-02-08-45-1890) Well, really quickly, like origin stories, man, you kind of gave a little bit of a room for nuance origin story in a way.

[\[02:08:53\]](#transcript-02-08-53-1891) But I mean, I'm for me, just to put a little more personal spin on this.

[\[02:09:02\]](#transcript-02-09-02-1892) For myself, I know I am a person, I'm an anxious soul.

[\[02:09:07\]](#transcript-02-09-07-1893) Assurance has always been something that I think, because of my tender conscience and the ways that I tend to even examine and evaluate myself and question my, it's like, man, because I'm a sinner, you question your legitimacy, right?

[\[02:09:21\]](#transcript-02-09-21-1894) That's a thing for me.

[\[02:09:23\]](#transcript-02-09-23-1895) You know, I grew up in an environment that was just laced with moralism and it was a theological, there was no doctrine.

[\[02:09:29\]](#transcript-02-09-29-1896) Be a good person.

[\[02:09:31\]](#transcript-02-09-31-1897) And, you know, rededicated my life 150 times between the age of 12 and 18, all the things.

[\[02:09:36\]](#transcript-02-09-36-1898) And then, as I encountered better theology in my 20s, like in even Calvinism, I think the reason that that resonated so much with me was because it's like, okay, well, the only reason I'm trusting Jesus in the first

[\[02:09:46\]](#transcript-02-09-46-1899) place is because God has done this for me.

[\[02:09:49\]](#transcript-02-09-49-1900) And if God did that, God's going to keep me.

[\[02:09:51\]](#transcript-02-09-51-1901) And that was incredible news.

[\[02:09:53\]](#transcript-02-09-53-1902) And then for me, you know, there were times that even, you know, as I encountered Calvinistic teaching, I felt like sometimes all the good that was held out to me in Christ was kind of then eroded the next

[\[02:10:04\]](#transcript-02-10-04-1903) minute, you know, and what gave me comfort at the end of it all was always coming back to Christ Himself and the things that He would speak to people who knew they need Him.

[\[02:10:16\]](#transcript-02-10-16-1904) You know, I'm going to prepare a place for you.

[\[02:10:19\]](#transcript-02-10-19-1905) Fear not, believe in God, believe also in me, kind of stuff.

[\[02:10:21\]](#transcript-02-10-21-1906) Or, you know, I'm going to raise you up.

[\[02:10:24\]](#transcript-02-10-24-1907) I'm the good shepherd, you know, and those kinds of things.

[\[02:10:27\]](#transcript-02-10-27-1908) And so, that for me, for sure, is a backfill to why theocast is a thing and why I'm even thrilled to be participating in it.

[\[02:10:34\]](#transcript-02-10-34-1909) And I think we all, you know, there's our concerns for the church broadly.

[\[02:10:39\]](#transcript-02-10-39-1910) You know, like you're just saying, everything you said about room for nuance, I'm like, yeah, dude, like this is a great thing.

[\[02:10:44\]](#transcript-02-10-44-1911) And then there's also just kind of personal things, you know, in our own spiritual lives as Christians that inform our ministries, too.

[\[02:10:51\]](#transcript-02-10-51-1912) And that's part of what I think makes us effective.

[\[02:10:54\]](#transcript-02-10-54-1913) I mean, even the reformers, for example, I mean, Luther, Calvin, pick your guy.

[\[02:10:57\]](#transcript-02-10-57-1914) It's like, there's a reason why they were useful because of the way the Lord had made them, you know.

[\[02:11:03\]](#transcript-02-11-03-1915) So, I think it's really good.

[\[02:11:04\]](#transcript-02-11-04-1916) Like, just the theocast, room for nuance, they're different.

[\[02:11:08\]](#transcript-02-11-08-1917) We're trying to do different things, and the church needs both.

[\[02:11:12\]](#transcript-02-11-12-1918) Yeah.

[\[02:11:13\]](#transcript-02-11-13-1919) I have a few seconds to add to that.

[\[02:11:16\]](#transcript-02-11-16-1920) Theocast was originated because we were trying to take really complicated concepts and make them really simple.

[\[02:11:24\]](#transcript-02-11-24-1921) like simplify them, bring them down to the lay level.

[\[02:11:27\]](#transcript-02-11-27-1922) Like, Justin and I, we really encourage each other to keep doing that.

[\[02:11:31\]](#transcript-02-11-31-1923) Like, how do you take really heady doctrines and the person washing dish and goes, oh, I think I, you know, the person driving in the car, like, they don't have to stop and really think about what they're hearing.

[\[02:11:42\]](#transcript-02-11-42-1924) It just is, it's really simple.

[\[02:11:43\]](#transcript-02-11-43-1925) It's just still it now, it's very, very simple.

[\[02:11:46\]](#transcript-02-11-46-1926) And subjects like assurance become one of the areas that we need to simplify the most because they feel this whole podcast, they feel so complex, right?

[\[02:11:55\]](#transcript-02-11-55-1927) It's so complex.

[\[02:11:56\]](#transcript-02-11-56-1928) But for me, from like an origin story, I'm coming from a very harsh fundamentalist background, and then being in the Calvinistic Calvangelical Lordship Salvation crowd, I just saw the harshness just rip people apart.

[\[02:12:11\]](#transcript-02-12-11-1929) I had two friends of mine that I graduated with that left Left ministry.

[\[02:12:18\]](#transcript-02-12-18-1930) One of them left seminary, but left ministry because they could not, upon self-examination, they could not determine if they were saved.

[\[02:12:26\]](#transcript-02-12-26-1931) And so, like, I don't want to be a pastor.

[\[02:12:27\]](#transcript-02-12-27-1932) And so, they got out from underneath kind of that lordship push.

[\[02:12:31\]](#transcript-02-12-31-1933) And that's when they started to discover kind of a more of a reformed understanding of assurance.

[\[02:12:36\]](#transcript-02-12-36-1934) And they're both pastors now, but hearing them talk about that.

[\[02:12:39\]](#transcript-02-12-39-1935) And that's one of the things that we hear quite often when we get contacted by Theocast is that people are like, I can't seem to just find assurance based upon this context that I'm in.

[\[02:12:52\]](#transcript-02-12-52-1936) And you guys have been able to offer that for me.

[\[02:12:54\]](#transcript-02-12-54-1937) It's really freed my soul to obey in ways that I was so introspective examining myself all the time, I ended up not doing any good works.

[\[02:13:05\]](#transcript-02-13-05-1938) So that's kind of where the origin of like we want to liberate people from that.

[\[02:13:09\]](#transcript-02-13-09-1939) All right, so Sean, let me ask you this question.

[\[02:13:10\]](#transcript-02-13-10-1940) I'm just interested in your answer, and we can stop this whenever we need to.

[\[02:13:14\]](#transcript-02-13-14-1941) But given, so none of us, none of us are, none of us are academics, we're pastors.

[\[02:13:20\]](#transcript-02-13-20-1942) We sometimes interview or engage.

[\[02:13:22\]](#transcript-02-13-22-1943) Some of us are more not academics than others.

[\[02:13:25\]](#transcript-02-13-25-1944) You have like what?

[\[02:13:27\]](#transcript-02-13-27-1945) How many degrees between the two of you?

[\[02:13:28\]](#transcript-02-13-28-1946) Odd?

[\[02:13:29\]](#transcript-02-13-29-1947) Just one?

[\[02:13:30\]](#transcript-02-13-30-1948) Yeah.

[\[02:13:30\]](#transcript-02-13-30-1949) Just one.

[\[02:13:31\]](#transcript-02-13-31-1950) Okay.

[\[02:13:31\]](#transcript-02-13-31-1951) So, and I don't know how much I tout my degree.

[\[02:13:36\]](#transcript-02-13-36-1952) Double the amount that Sean has.

[\[02:13:37\]](#transcript-02-13-37-1953) Yeah.

[\[02:13:38\]](#transcript-02-13-38-1954) So So we're not academics, we're pastors, but we interact with a lot of people who might be in that world, and that's that's fine.

[\[02:13:46\]](#transcript-02-13-46-1955) But given even all the things that you've done with room for nuance and the interviews that you've done as a pastor, I'm asking you this question.

[\[02:13:53\]](#transcript-02-13-53-1956) Talk to me or talk to us about one, two, three things on the front of your mind that you're like, hey, in our church context in the States, these are things that we are, that if we're not dealing

[\[02:14:03\]](#transcript-02-14-03-1957) with them already, we're going to be.

[\[02:14:05\]](#transcript-02-14-05-1958) And I think we need to be ready for.

[\[02:14:07\]](#transcript-02-14-07-1959) I think the main thing is the therapeutic culture that we live in.

[\[02:14:12\]](#transcript-02-14-12-1960) Even that connects back to that assurance thing.

[\[02:14:15\]](#transcript-02-14-15-1961) You kind of psychologize

[\[02:14:18\]](#transcript-02-14-18-1962) your experience with Christ and the gospel because your whole life you've been trained to examine yourself, think about yourself constantly, and then you become a Christian and you just sort of overlay that onto your spiritual experience.

[\[02:14:31\]](#transcript-02-14-31-1963) But even outside of that, just this therapeutic culture, the therapeutic culture that we live in has permeated the cell membrane of the church.

[\[02:14:42\]](#transcript-02-14-42-1964) And you guys have probably even experienced something like this.

[\[02:14:44\]](#transcript-02-14-44-1965) Like you're pastoring someone and you're talking to them about some issue, and they'll just sort of casually bring up a therapist that you didn't even know that they had.

[\[02:14:53\]](#transcript-02-14-53-1966) If you just sort of survey your congregation, so many of them are on medication.

[\[02:14:58\]](#transcript-02-14-58-1967) Not that necessarily it's always a wrong thing to be on medication, but, like, if a hundred people in your church, if 60 of them are on antidepressants or so, anyways, I think, I think, uh, I think even secular

[\[02:15:11\]](#transcript-02-15-11-1968) analysts are realizing that this is bad, and you know, uh, it the

[\[02:15:19\]](#transcript-02-15-19-1969) the cynical prophets of old saw this coming.

[\[02:15:23\]](#transcript-02-15-23-1970) Freud said that one day all the priesthood would be replaced by therapists.

[\[02:15:29\]](#transcript-02-15-29-1971) and I feel that as a pastor.

[\[02:15:32\]](#transcript-02-15-32-1972) And I think the more I talk to other pastors, the more they feel it too.

[\[02:15:35\]](#transcript-02-15-35-1973) So that's one.

[\[02:15:36\]](#transcript-02-15-36-1974) You want to riff on that before I move on to the I want you to keep going.

[\[02:15:40\]](#transcript-02-15-40-1975) Okay.

[\[02:15:40\]](#transcript-02-15-40-1976) Just keep rolling.

[\[02:15:41\]](#transcript-02-15-41-1977) The second thing, not to beat a dead horse, but I do think critical theory is just, I think it's the ascendant worldview that's in competition with the Western Christian worldview.

[\[02:15:50\]](#transcript-02-15-50-1978) All right, so talk about that for a minute.

[\[02:15:52\]](#transcript-02-15-52-1979) Like, because, especially, for like, are this, these are not things that we talk about on Theocast.

[\[02:15:56\]](#transcript-02-15-56-1980) Okay.

[\[02:15:57\]](#transcript-02-15-57-1981) Because we're, this is just not our lane.

[\[02:15:58\]](#transcript-02-15-58-1982) Yeah.

[\[02:15:58\]](#transcript-02-15-58-1983) So why don't you go for a minute?

[\[02:16:00\]](#transcript-02-16-00-1984) Yeah.

[\[02:16:00\]](#transcript-02-16-00-1985) So critical theory, Neil Shinby talks about there's four different elements of it, but it's basically just like a rebranded, repurposed, reified to use the scholarly term, Marxism.

[\[02:16:12\]](#transcript-02-16-12-1986) You combine Freudian thought with Marxist thought, and then you end up with this beast with seven heads called critical theory.

[\[02:16:20\]](#transcript-02-16-20-1987) And so, all the stuff that you've heard, like critical race theory, critical queer theory, colonial theory, fat theory, all of that is basically part of the same bad juju of thought.

[\[02:16:30\]](#transcript-02-16-30-1988) That's a mixture of Marx and Freud.

[\[02:16:33\]](#transcript-02-16-33-1989) And it came to America after World War II through some scholars from the Frankfurt School who came over here and they ended up being professors at Columbia and Harvard.

[\[02:16:44\]](#transcript-02-16-44-1990) And it got into the backwaters of academia.

[\[02:16:47\]](#transcript-02-16-47-1991) And when it did,

[\[02:16:50\]](#transcript-02-16-50-1992) it spent about four decades sort of percolating and drifting down.

[\[02:16:55\]](#transcript-02-16-55-1993) And it moved out of the classroom into the newsroom, into the education rooms

[\[02:17:01\]](#transcript-02-17-01-1994) in other colleges and high schools and even now elementary schools.

[\[02:17:05\]](#transcript-02-17-05-1995) If you're wondering why is this teacher trying to queer a child during like the reading day at their library, it's because of queer theory, it's critical theory.

[\[02:17:12\]](#transcript-02-17-12-1996) It's made its way into the Sunday school room.

[\[02:17:14\]](#transcript-02-17-14-1997) It's made its way into the boardroom.

[\[02:17:16\]](#transcript-02-17-16-1998) If you're wondering why BlackRock, which manages trillions of dollars of money, in any way gives a crap about LGBTQ plus issues, it's because of critical theory that's made its way into the boardroom.

[\[02:17:29\]](#transcript-02-17-29-1999) And so, and then of course, yes, it's made its way into the church.

[\[02:17:34\]](#transcript-02-17-34-2000) There's varying degrees of that.

[\[02:17:37\]](#transcript-02-17-37-2001) So, there are some people who have been sort of unwittingly influenced by critical theory, you know, like the pastor who cared about racial issues, and someone gave him a copy of Robin D'Angelo's white fragility.

[\[02:17:50\]](#transcript-02-17-50-2002) And he's like, oh, you know, let me just read this and see what it's about.

[\[02:17:54\]](#transcript-02-17-54-2003) And there's some good things in there, some things that make sense, and doesn't maybe have the discernment to think.

[\[02:17:58\]](#transcript-02-17-58-2004) So that's the guy who might just sort of be unwittingly influenced.

[\[02:18:02\]](#transcript-02-18-02-2005) And then there's some other people who have been sort of wholly given over to it.

[\[02:18:05\]](#transcript-02-18-05-2006) I think you got to triage that.

[\[02:18:08\]](#transcript-02-18-08-2007) So put it on the same kind of spectrum that you would with like Arminianism.

[\[02:18:11\]](#transcript-02-18-11-2008) And so somebody can be like a Pelagian, like one of my elders was when I got to our church.

[\[02:18:16\]](#transcript-02-18-16-2009) He said, Man, I'm Pelagian.

[\[02:18:18\]](#transcript-02-18-18-2010) Old Pelagius got it right.

[\[02:18:19\]](#transcript-02-18-19-2011) No way.

[\[02:18:20\]](#transcript-02-18-20-2012) Oh, yeah.

[\[02:18:22\]](#transcript-02-18-22-2013) Nobody identifies as that.

[\[02:18:23\]](#transcript-02-18-23-2014) Dude, he was like Pelagian to the bone.

[\[02:18:26\]](#transcript-02-18-26-2015) I don't know.

[\[02:18:26\]](#transcript-02-18-26-2016) Ever met someone who would claim No, I'm Pelagian.

[\[02:18:29\]](#transcript-02-18-29-2017) First and only one for me.

[\[02:18:31\]](#transcript-02-18-31-2018) He is now the most reformed dude in our church.

[\[02:18:33\]](#transcript-02-18-33-2019) He's too.

[\[02:18:34\]](#transcript-02-18-34-2020) I'm like, bro, you're more reformed than me.

[\[02:18:35\]](#transcript-02-18-35-2021) Look, praise God.

[\[02:18:36\]](#transcript-02-18-36-2022) The Lord.

[\[02:18:37\]](#transcript-02-18-37-2023) Yes.

[\[02:18:37\]](#transcript-02-18-37-2024) So you have Pelagianism, and then you have semi-Pelagianism, and then you have sort of classical Arminianism.

[\[02:18:43\]](#transcript-02-18-43-2025) And some people would say those are the same.

[\[02:18:46\]](#transcript-02-18-46-2026) They're not, though, but they're not.

[\[02:18:47\]](#transcript-02-18-47-2027) And then, and then you have like maybe four-point Calvinists, you know, they're just for Maldivianism.

[\[02:18:52\]](#transcript-02-18-52-2028) Yeah, it's yeah, Molly, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's like a different point on the axis here.

[\[02:18:57\]](#transcript-02-18-57-2029) And then, and then you have you know, reformed theology proper.

[\[02:19:01\]](#transcript-02-19-01-2030) Uh, in the same way, like there are some people who are so wholly given over to critical theory, they're like Pelagians, you know, they're like, no, they got it right.

[\[02:19:10\]](#transcript-02-19-10-2031) Like, the Frankfurt School is the way.

[\[02:19:12\]](#transcript-02-19-12-2032) Most people are somewhere in the middle there.

[\[02:19:15\]](#transcript-02-19-15-2033) they, they, you know, the chew the chew the bones, chew the meat, spit out the bones.

[\[02:19:20\]](#transcript-02-19-20-2034) they're friendly to it.

[\[02:19:20\]](#transcript-02-19-20-2035) They think it's a useful tool.

[\[02:19:22\]](#transcript-02-19-22-2036) Think Resolution 9.

[\[02:19:25\]](#transcript-02-19-25-2037) And I think that they're misguided.

[\[02:19:27\]](#transcript-02-19-27-2038) I think they're opening the door to some really dangerous, bad juju stuff in the church.

[\[02:19:33\]](#transcript-02-19-33-2039) But last thing here, the most important thing you need to understand about critical theory is that it co-opts whatever field it enters into.

[\[02:19:41\]](#transcript-02-19-41-2040) It's not actually a field of study like it unto itself.

[\[02:19:44\]](#transcript-02-19-44-2041) Think about biology, biology is the study of life forms on Earth.

[\[02:19:48\]](#transcript-02-19-48-2042) Math is the study of numbers and how they work together, and languages, subjects, and predicates, and all this stuff.

[\[02:19:54\]](#transcript-02-19-54-2043) Critical theory is a sociological lens through which you examine all these other things that are actually things under themselves.

[\[02:20:02\]](#transcript-02-20-02-2044) So now math is not math, it's a sociological thing.

[\[02:20:07\]](#transcript-02-20-07-2045) Two plus two only equals four because of corrupt power structures that have trained you to think in white western ways about numbers, take all that and come into the church now.

[\[02:20:17\]](#transcript-02-20-17-2046) Take that sociological, that cynical, sociological, Marxist Freudian lens and read the Bible.

[\[02:20:24\]](#transcript-02-20-24-2047) And what do you get?

[\[02:20:26\]](#transcript-02-20-26-2048) Examine

[\[02:20:28\]](#transcript-02-20-28-2049) relationships in the church, and what do you get?

[\[02:20:31\]](#transcript-02-20-31-2050) You get destruction, just pure and utter destruction.

[\[02:20:35\]](#transcript-02-20-35-2051) And now you don't read the Bible, like someone who's trying to, as a sinner, by God's grace, encounter a savior.

[\[02:20:42\]](#transcript-02-20-42-2052) You're reading it to understand power structures and all this other stuff.

[\[02:20:46\]](#transcript-02-20-46-2053) So, yeah, so we've been trying to kind of warn against that.

[\[02:20:51\]](#transcript-02-20-51-2054) Yeah, that's really good.

[\[02:20:52\]](#transcript-02-20-52-2055) The third thing, I think.

[\[02:20:54\]](#transcript-02-20-54-2056) Hey, give us three.

[\[02:20:55\]](#transcript-02-20-55-2057) Yeah, the third thing Baptists should do.

[\[02:20:57\]](#transcript-02-20-57-2058) Yeah, I think, I mean, I think theonomy is an ascendant threat.

[\[02:21:03\]](#transcript-02-21-03-2059) It's Would you lump in like Christian nationalism and kind of broader reconstructionist ideas with theonomy?

[\[02:21:10\]](#transcript-02-21-10-2060) Yeah.

[\[02:21:10\]](#transcript-02-21-10-2061) So, yeah.

[\[02:21:12\]](#transcript-02-21-12-2062) You know, we need to bust out a chart here to kind of clarify where each one goes under which umbrella.

[\[02:21:17\]](#transcript-02-21-17-2063) And it needs to not be like a 2D chart, it needs to be like a four-dimensional chart because some theonomists are not reconstructionists and

[\[02:21:26\]](#transcript-02-21-26-2064) all that stuff.

[\[02:21:27\]](#transcript-02-21-27-2065) But it's actually what I'm seeing is that it's a reaction to the ascendant leftist worldviews, and there's a lot of Christians who are afraid, and rightly so, of drag Queen story Hour and men beating up women in the

[\[02:21:45\]](#transcript-02-21-45-2066) Olympics, and you know, my work, I have to call this person by a pronoun that isn't, and they feel like the Christian worldview is dying in the West, and they're right, it is, it's dying, yeah.

[\[02:22:00\]](#transcript-02-22-00-2067) The world they grew up in, that's right, yeah, and they don't want that to happen, and I don't want that to happen.

[\[02:22:05\]](#transcript-02-22-05-2068) Uh, the Lord's sovereign, and He can use it, and I think it'll probably be better for the gospel in the long run.

[\[02:22:10\]](#transcript-02-22-10-2069) But the most thoughtful of them want to have a theological reason to fight back against that.

[\[02:22:18\]](#transcript-02-22-18-2070) They're not just out here culture warring.

[\[02:22:20\]](#transcript-02-22-20-2071) The best of them want to have some sort of theological grounding.

[\[02:22:24\]](#transcript-02-22-24-2072) Sure.

[\[02:22:25\]](#transcript-02-22-25-2073) Right.

[\[02:22:26\]](#transcript-02-22-26-2074) Where from scripture?

[\[02:22:27\]](#transcript-02-22-27-2075) How do I get there?

[\[02:22:28\]](#transcript-02-22-28-2076) How can I fight this battle with scripture?

[\[02:22:29\]](#transcript-02-22-29-2077) And that's what theonomy offers you, right?

[\[02:22:32\]](#transcript-02-22-32-2078) It offers you a certain kind of political theology, a justification that is just 100% in opposition to the exile theology that we find in the New Testament, the pilgrim theology that we find in the New Testament, that this

[\[02:22:45\]](#transcript-02-22-45-2079) idea that the church is always a nation within a nation.

[\[02:22:50\]](#transcript-02-22-50-2080) In God's providence and kindness, there may be times where that pagan nation is more friendly and receptive to what you're saying, but the vast majority of human history and even the world today bears witness to the fact that

[\[02:23:04\]](#transcript-02-23-04-2081) that's the exception that proves the rule: that this is not our home, and we're always going to be at war with the nations as our own little nation within the nation.

[\[02:23:13\]](#transcript-02-23-13-2082) So

[\[02:23:16\]](#transcript-02-23-16-2083) I think particularly the versions of it that are being espoused right now are really bad and really dangerous.

[\[02:23:24\]](#transcript-02-23-24-2084) I think they're going to do untold damage.

[\[02:23:25\]](#transcript-02-23-25-2085) So, we have done of the three things that you mentioned, we have done some work and done some podcasts ourselves on the termy piece.

[\[02:23:36\]](#transcript-02-23-36-2086) Yeah.

[\[02:23:37\]](#transcript-02-23-37-2087) And I mean, agree with everything you said

[\[02:23:40\]](#transcript-02-23-40-2088) about that.

[\[02:23:41\]](#transcript-02-23-41-2089) And so that we're not here all afternoon, because this is, we've been going for a minute.

[\[02:23:46\]](#transcript-02-23-46-2090) I'm getting hungry.

[\[02:23:48\]](#transcript-02-23-48-2091) Yeah.

[\[02:23:48\]](#transcript-02-23-48-2092) I promise to be tacos.

[\[02:23:49\]](#transcript-02-23-49-2093) So, yeah, maybe.

[\[02:23:51\]](#transcript-02-23-51-2094) Yeah, we would have vegetarianism.

[\[02:23:54\]](#transcript-02-23-54-2095) I think if I was going to make a statement about where our concern, because we've just been here together this week for the first general assembly of something called the Grace Reform Network, it's a network of confessional, like

[\[02:24:05\]](#transcript-02-24-05-2096) Second London Confession Baptist churches.

[\[02:24:07\]](#transcript-02-24-07-2097) And some of the time that we spent together was teaching and panel discussions and just general education stuff.

[\[02:24:15\]](#transcript-02-24-15-2098) We did a panel discussion.

[\[02:24:16\]](#transcript-02-24-16-2099) John and I were part of it, on this, on theonomy and Christian nationalism and related subject matter.

[\[02:24:24\]](#transcript-02-24-24-2100) I think a lot of our concern, agreeing with everything you've already stated, is the way that serious-minded theonomy and

[\[02:24:34\]](#transcript-02-24-34-2101) related things can really obscure not only Christ and the gospel, but can also kind of make the mission of the church it's a right, it's a right word version of the same thing we critique on the left.

[\[02:24:48\]](#transcript-02-24-48-2102) Correct.

[\[02:24:48\]](#transcript-02-24-48-2103) Mission drift.

[\[02:24:49\]](#transcript-02-24-49-2104) Correct.

[\[02:24:50\]](#transcript-02-24-50-2105) Exactly.

[\[02:24:50\]](#transcript-02-24-50-2106) Like our concern is the purity of the mission of the church.

[\[02:24:52\]](#transcript-02-24-52-2107) On the left, it's like environmentalism and it's on the right.

[\[02:24:57\]](#transcript-02-24-57-2108) So it's good to criticize this.

[\[02:24:58\]](#transcript-02-24-58-2109) Yeah.

[\[02:24:58\]](#transcript-02-24-58-2110) On the right, it is all of these things where, like, baked into the cake, part of the mission of the church is the transformation of society this way, or maybe even overhauling the government to some extent.

[\[02:25:12\]](#transcript-02-25-12-2111) And this is what Christians, it's not just that Christians, as individuals, as citizens of the common kingdom, can be involved in all kinds of good pursuits.

[\[02:25:20\]](#transcript-02-25-20-2112) It's that the institutional church needs to be involved in these kinds of social and even political matters sometimes.

[\[02:25:26\]](#transcript-02-25-26-2113) Yeah.

[\[02:25:27\]](#transcript-02-25-27-2114) And that fidelity to the Lord Jesus includes these things.

[\[02:25:30\]](#transcript-02-25-30-2115) Yeah.

[\[02:25:31\]](#transcript-02-25-31-2116) And if you're not, therefore, pursuing them, then you are not being faithful to

[\[02:25:35\]](#transcript-02-25-35-2117) your compromisers.

[\[02:25:36\]](#transcript-02-25-36-2118) You're cowards.

[\[02:25:37\]](#transcript-02-25-37-2119) And that's very concerning rather than kind of a historical understanding of we preach the word of God, we administer the sacraments, we rightly practice discipline for the salvation of God's people being the mission of the church.

[\[02:25:50\]](#transcript-02-25-50-2120) So you said you're in a town of like 55,000.

[\[02:25:53\]](#transcript-02-25-53-2121) You're seeing this in your church.

[\[02:25:55\]](#transcript-02-25-55-2122) Dude, I went 16 hours, four flights, two camel rides, and

[\[02:26:04\]](#transcript-02-26-04-2123) a guy in a rickshaw picked me up to get to Moscow, Idaho.

[\[02:26:07\]](#transcript-02-26-07-2124) This town of 22,000 people, and it's there.

[\[02:26:11\]](#transcript-02-26-11-2125) I mean, it's everywhere.

[\[02:26:12\]](#transcript-02-26-12-2126) You know, the internet has made the world a very small place.

[\[02:26:16\]](#transcript-02-26-16-2127) And I think you see it in big cities, like big blue cities that you would never expect to see it.

[\[02:26:23\]](#transcript-02-26-23-2128) I think it's actually more dangerous there because people are feeling the pinch so acutely.

[\[02:26:28\]](#transcript-02-26-28-2129) They are.

[\[02:26:29\]](#transcript-02-26-29-2130) That when somebody holds out this thing that, I mean, in the branding and the marketing, you know, like by what standard, I'm like, yeah, right?

[\[02:26:37\]](#transcript-02-26-37-2131) I mean, it sounds so good.

[\[02:26:38\]](#transcript-02-26-38-2132) So, sure.

[\[02:26:40\]](#transcript-02-26-40-2133) It's either God's law or man's law, which is okay.

[\[02:26:43\]](#transcript-02-26-43-2134) It's like, well, yeah, I mean, I'm all for God's law.

[\[02:26:45\]](#transcript-02-26-45-2135) I just think the way that you're applying God's law rightly understood in the context of redemptive history within the biblical covenantal framework, etc.

[\[02:26:53\]](#transcript-02-26-53-2136) And it's an error that I, no offense to my Presbyterian brothers, but it makes more sense that they would make in light of their biblical theology and the continuity that they see between the covenants and even their law,

[\[02:27:03\]](#transcript-02-27-03-2137) gospel, their threefold distinction of the law, which I don't hold to, civil, ceremonial.

[\[02:27:10\]](#transcript-02-27-10-2138) I think that's part of the problem.

[\[02:27:11\]](#transcript-02-27-11-2139) You would be, would you be a progressive coming in on this?

[\[02:27:14\]](#transcript-02-27-14-2140) Depends on who's asking and what they mean by it, but basically, yeah.

[\[02:27:17\]](#transcript-02-27-17-2141) Yeah.

[\[02:27:18\]](#transcript-02-27-18-2142) Um, like, like, I'm not a 1689er, a 1689 federalist, like we are.

[\[02:27:22\]](#transcript-02-27-22-2143) Uh, but there goes those three degrees of difference again, right?

[\[02:27:26\]](#transcript-02-27-26-2144) Yes, uh, but, um, but the fact that I'm seeing it in church, I get the gospel.

[\[02:27:31\]](#transcript-02-27-31-2145) You get the gospel, baby.

[\[02:27:32\]](#transcript-02-27-32-2146) Come on.

[\[02:27:33\]](#transcript-02-27-33-2147) But the fact that I'm seeing it make inroads into Baptist circles is so frustrating.

[\[02:27:38\]](#transcript-02-27-38-2148) It is.

[\[02:27:38\]](#transcript-02-27-38-2149) And big can we make names?

[\[02:27:39\]](#transcript-02-27-39-2150) I mean, big names that hold the name, Joel Webbin, right?

[\[02:27:42\]](#transcript-02-27-42-2151) I don't even know who that is.

[\[02:27:44\]](#transcript-02-27-44-2152) It can't be that big of a name.

[\[02:27:44\]](#transcript-02-27-44-2153) Or even.

[\[02:27:45\]](#transcript-02-27-45-2154) Buckle up.

[\[02:27:47\]](#transcript-02-27-47-2155) He's got probably 150,000 subscribers on his YouTube, and he's a part of this Moscow mood.

[\[02:27:53\]](#transcript-02-27-53-2156) He's just in Texas.

[\[02:27:54\]](#transcript-02-27-54-2157) But he is, he claims himself to be a Reformed Baptist.

[\[02:27:57\]](#transcript-02-27-57-2158) He's probably the biggest Reformed Baptist theonomist that I know of.

[\[02:28:00\]](#transcript-02-28-00-2159) Oh, okay.

[\[02:28:00\]](#transcript-02-28-00-2160) Yeah.

[\[02:28:01\]](#transcript-02-28-01-2161) All right.

[\[02:28:01\]](#transcript-02-28-01-2162) Anyway, maybe you should have him on your room for nuance.

[\[02:28:03\]](#transcript-02-28-03-2163) I would love to.

[\[02:28:04\]](#transcript-02-28-04-2164) And we, you know, we've, even for us, as, you know, second London Confession guys.

[\[02:28:11\]](#transcript-02-28-11-2165) Yeah.

[\[02:28:11\]](#transcript-02-28-11-2166) We are covenantal.

[\[02:28:13\]](#transcript-02-28-13-2167) So we would affirm even like the threefold division of the law.

[\[02:28:17\]](#transcript-02-28-17-2168) And then we would hold to one covenant of grace in all scripture, though there's some nuance in terms of how we understand that as opposed to our Presbyterian friends, so we contend, even from our standpoint, like this theonomy

[\[02:28:29\]](#transcript-02-28-29-2169) in particular, like if you're thinking like Greg Bonson and some of the seminal figures, this does not square with confessional Baptist theology from our perspective.

[\[02:28:37\]](#transcript-02-28-37-2170) That's right.

[\[02:28:38\]](#transcript-02-28-38-2171) PCA guys want to be exceedingly clear as well.

[\[02:28:41\]](#transcript-02-28-41-2172) They don't think it squares with Westminster stuff.

[\[02:28:43\]](#transcript-02-28-43-2173) Oh, of course.

[\[02:28:43\]](#transcript-02-28-43-2174) So would you say, because I loved how you emphasize, like, you know, we would call it a theology of the cross, like, we should expect suffering.

[\[02:28:53\]](#transcript-02-28-53-2175) Would you say that sojourner and exile paradigm?

[\[02:28:56\]](#transcript-02-28-56-2176) We could not agree more, right?

[\[02:28:57\]](#transcript-02-28-57-2177) yeah.

[\[02:28:57\]](#transcript-02-28-57-2178) There's you got mega church anemic Christians who have somewhat been influenced by prosperity gospel.

[\[02:29:05\]](#transcript-02-29-05-2179) So we could say that there's a carnality to these people that they really want their world to be more enjoyable to live in.

[\[02:29:12\]](#transcript-02-29-12-2180) That's why theonomy probably is very enticing to them.

[\[02:29:16\]](#transcript-02-29-16-2181) Yeah.

[\[02:29:17\]](#transcript-02-29-17-2182) You know, I'm not.

[\[02:29:18\]](#transcript-02-29-18-2183) Sorry, you were going to say something.

[\[02:29:19\]](#transcript-02-29-19-2184) No, go ahead because then mine's maybe slightly.

[\[02:29:21\]](#transcript-02-29-21-2185) I mean, what I think I've not seen explicitly like the prosperity-like connection to theonomy, but I can imagine it.

[\[02:29:27\]](#transcript-02-29-27-2186) I mean, I'm sure it's true.

[\[02:29:28\]](#transcript-02-29-28-2187) Somebody comes out of that.

[\[02:29:30\]](#transcript-02-29-30-2188) Actually, no, I actually have experienced this.

[\[02:29:34\]](#transcript-02-29-34-2189) Somebody kind of came out of that context.

[\[02:29:36\]](#transcript-02-29-36-2190) They came to our church, got disciples, got a little more of the gospel, and then, like, within six months, we didn't know anything, we were idiots.

[\[02:29:44\]](#transcript-02-29-44-2191) You know, they got on the theonomy train, so I did see that.

[\[02:29:47\]](#transcript-02-29-47-2192) Yeah, that yeah, because there's a there everyone, like to be we're all parents here, I mean, everyone wants a safe experience for their family.

[\[02:29:56\]](#transcript-02-29-56-2193) Yeah, that's right.

[\[02:29:57\]](#transcript-02-29-57-2194) And that's what they offer.

[\[02:29:58\]](#transcript-02-29-58-2195) Yeah.

[\[02:29:59\]](#transcript-02-29-59-2196) In theory.

[\[02:30:00\]](#transcript-02-30-00-2197) In theory.

[\[02:30:01\]](#transcript-02-30-01-2198) Because I got to tell you, when I was in Moscow, if you were going to say, like, man, if it's going to work anywhere, yeah, it's going to work here.

[\[02:30:08\]](#transcript-02-30-08-2199) Like, they got Doug Wilson.

[\[02:30:09\]](#transcript-02-30-09-2200) There are like four sister churches in that area.

[\[02:30:12\]](#transcript-02-30-12-2201) It's like the CREC stuff.

[\[02:30:13\]](#transcript-02-30-13-2202) Yeah, that's right.

[\[02:30:14\]](#transcript-02-30-14-2203) The hub of it.

[\[02:30:15\]](#transcript-02-30-15-2204) But I mean, there's their little downtown strip, like half the buildings are owned by the church and people related to it and businesses related to it, New St.

[\[02:30:22\]](#transcript-02-30-22-2205) Andrews.

[\[02:30:22\]](#transcript-02-30-22-2206) And the other half, when I was there, like had pride flags out, you know.

[\[02:30:25\]](#transcript-02-30-25-2207) So, like, they're not, right?

[\[02:30:28\]](#transcript-02-30-28-2208) They're not any, I surveyed people who lived in the city and asked them questions.

[\[02:30:32\]](#transcript-02-30-32-2209) I interviewed my taxi driver, and you know, they're not any closer to getting there than anywhere.

[\[02:30:38\]](#transcript-02-30-38-2210) So, I think I didn't know that.

[\[02:30:40\]](#transcript-02-30-40-2211) So, you went there to interview, yeah, I went there to interview them, yeah, and could not have been uh actually.

[\[02:30:46\]](#transcript-02-30-46-2212) What's interesting, I think, is uh, I haven't said this publicly, but nobody watches a show anyway, so I'll tell you here and there.

[\[02:30:54\]](#transcript-02-30-54-2213) I had one encounter with one person there who was everything that I thought it would be: kind, affable, intelligent, generous, real sense of brotherly unity.

[\[02:31:05\]](#transcript-02-31-05-2214) And then I had another encounter, which is everything that you hear about the Moscow mood and the way people act on the internet.

[\[02:31:12\]](#transcript-02-31-12-2215) And

[\[02:31:14\]](#transcript-02-31-14-2216) I thought that was pretty revealing.

[\[02:31:16\]](#transcript-02-31-16-2217) Yeah.

[\[02:31:17\]](#transcript-02-31-17-2218) That was pretty revealing.

[\[02:31:18\]](#transcript-02-31-18-2219) Yeah.

[\[02:31:19\]](#transcript-02-31-19-2220) Yeah.

[\[02:31:19\]](#transcript-02-31-19-2221) Yeah.

[\[02:31:19\]](#transcript-02-31-19-2222) Yeah.

[\[02:31:20\]](#transcript-02-31-20-2223) Yeah.

[\[02:31:20\]](#transcript-02-31-20-2224) It is.

[\[02:31:21\]](#transcript-02-31-21-2225) Well, I mean, we're going to go here.

[\[02:31:23\]](#transcript-02-31-23-2226) So now that you say that, what's been the attitude?

[\[02:31:27\]](#transcript-02-31-27-2227) Like, you experienced Theonymists.

[\[02:31:29\]](#transcript-02-31-29-2228) How would you describe their attitude towards culture and other Christians?

[\[02:31:33\]](#transcript-02-31-33-2229) Yeah, I think, I think, so first of all, anytime you have like a movement, however tight or loose that may be, you usually have people at the forefront of that movement who do a particularly good job of being

[\[02:31:47\]](#transcript-02-31-47-2230) balanced and fair and charitable.

[\[02:31:50\]](#transcript-02-31-50-2231) And then you have people who kind of sort of ape them and they make hash of it, right?

[\[02:31:55\]](#transcript-02-31-55-2232) So, let's say in our nine Mark's world, right?

[\[02:31:57\]](#transcript-02-31-57-2233) Mark is such a fantastic example of thoughtful, nuanced.

[\[02:32:02\]](#transcript-02-32-02-2234) Holds the convictions, but can be Catholic to the infinite.

[\[02:32:05\]](#transcript-02-32-05-2235) Very open-handed, very charitable.

[\[02:32:06\]](#transcript-02-32-06-2236) All of those kinds of things.

[\[02:32:07\]](#transcript-02-32-07-2237) Very difficult to do.

[\[02:32:08\]](#transcript-02-32-08-2238) He does it well.

[\[02:32:09\]](#transcript-02-32-09-2239) Then you get guys who come along and they read 19 Mark's book and they're like, you're excommunicated, and you're excommunicated.

[\[02:32:16\]](#transcript-02-32-16-2240) And then people start throwing shade and like, nine Marxists are nine Marxists, they're authoritarian.

[\[02:32:22\]](#transcript-02-32-22-2241) Okay, well, maybe don't evaluate the whole movement based on this guy.

[\[02:32:26\]](#transcript-02-32-26-2242) Sure.

[\[02:32:26\]](#transcript-02-32-26-2243) But I will say that the vast majority of theonomy kind of people that I've encountered have just been hostile, they've been uncharitable, they've been unkind.

[\[02:32:40\]](#transcript-02-32-40-2244) I'm not talking about, you know, are you being winsome?

[\[02:32:42\]](#transcript-02-32-42-2245) Yeah, I just mean like basic Christian decency.

[\[02:32:45\]](#transcript-02-32-45-2246) Like if someone disagrees with you about something, not calling them gay on the internet, you know, that kind of thing.

[\[02:32:51\]](#transcript-02-32-51-2247) And listen, we're part of it.

[\[02:32:53\]](#transcript-02-32-53-2248) That literally just happened to me.

[\[02:32:56\]](#transcript-02-32-56-2249) Got the t-shirt, brother.

[\[02:32:58\]](#transcript-02-32-58-2250) There are.

[\[02:33:00\]](#transcript-02-33-00-2251) Now, I'll call you gay offline because we're friends, right?

[\[02:33:04\]](#transcript-02-33-04-2252) But that's totally different.

[\[02:33:07\]](#transcript-02-33-07-2253) Okay.

[\[02:33:07\]](#transcript-02-33-07-2254) Well, Dave, sorry.

[\[02:33:09\]](#transcript-02-33-09-2255) But even if you look at kind of the main theonomy denominational structure, the CREC, and I know, you know, there are theonomists out there who are like, they don't represent us, but you get what I'm saying?

[\[02:33:20\]](#transcript-02-33-20-2256) If you think about Baptists, you think about the SVC, if you think about Presbyterians, you think about the PCA.

[\[02:33:23\]](#transcript-02-33-23-2257) If you think about Theonymists, you think about the CREC.

[\[02:33:26\]](#transcript-02-33-26-2258) I have just a mountain, a mountain of stories of pastors saying, like, the CREC came to our town, and it just things went crazy.

[\[02:33:38\]](#transcript-02-33-38-2259) Like, hostility, frustrations, disunity, accusations.

[\[02:33:42\]](#transcript-02-33-42-2260) I'm thinking about the verse: you know, do not bite and devour one another.

[\[02:33:45\]](#transcript-02-33-45-2261) Right.

[\[02:33:47\]](#transcript-02-33-47-2262) And yeah, so I mean, all of that leads me to say, I don't want to be, I don't want to be overly harsh towards my Theonomy brothers, but I just, that's most of what I've seen.

[\[02:33:56\]](#transcript-02-33-56-2263) Yeah.

[\[02:33:56\]](#transcript-02-33-56-2264) Yeah.

[\[02:33:57\]](#transcript-02-33-57-2265) So I've never said this publicly.

[\[02:33:58\]](#transcript-02-33-58-2266) So since we're the state of doing this, two years ago, I put out a 30-minute video just saying, here's my concerns with Doug Wilson, right?

[\[02:34:06\]](#transcript-02-34-06-2267) And I just deal with this theology.

[\[02:34:08\]](#transcript-02-34-08-2268) And you did that in part because you saw this creeping into your own church.

[\[02:34:12\]](#transcript-02-34-12-2269) I had to deal with it.

[\[02:34:13\]](#transcript-02-34-13-2270) So, as a pastor, I kind of have a circle.

[\[02:34:16\]](#transcript-02-34-16-2271) And if the crazies are out there and they're not in my circle, I don't care.

[\[02:34:19\]](#transcript-02-34-19-2272) But the crazies come into my circle, I got to deal with them.

[\[02:34:22\]](#transcript-02-34-22-2273) So, Doug came in with it of force, kind of like a lot of people are experiencing.

[\[02:34:26\]](#transcript-02-34-26-2274) So, I decided to deal with it in a letter that I wrote to our congregation.

[\[02:34:30\]](#transcript-02-34-30-2275) And I was like, you know what?

[\[02:34:31\]](#transcript-02-34-31-2276) I'm going to put a video out there because some people won't read this letter, but they will watch this video.

[\[02:34:35\]](#transcript-02-34-35-2277) Well, it got a lot of attraction, and I started getting emails and people calling me and messaging me on Facebook.

[\[02:34:43\]](#transcript-02-34-43-2278) Mostly, pastors, your video split my church in half.

[\[02:34:47\]](#transcript-02-34-47-2279) I lost my elders.

[\[02:34:48\]](#transcript-02-34-48-2280) I lost half my board because they did not realize the amount of influence that Wilson had had in their churches.

[\[02:34:55\]](#transcript-02-34-55-2281) And so these pastors were bringing this to their congregation or bringing it to their churches, and it was just slicing it right down the middle.

[\[02:35:02\]](#transcript-02-35-02-2282) And those, I think I lost count like 20.

[\[02:35:04\]](#transcript-02-35-04-2283) After 20, I was like, this is a problem.

[\[02:35:07\]](#transcript-02-35-07-2284) Yeah.

[\[02:35:07\]](#transcript-02-35-07-2285) When, so when I had one guy, he was, he disagreed with me about interviewing Wilson.

[\[02:35:13\]](#transcript-02-35-13-2286) He says, you're just giving him more exposure.

[\[02:35:15\]](#transcript-02-35-15-2287) You introduce, I said, listen, if you have people in your church who are homeschoolers, he's in your church, right?

[\[02:35:22\]](#transcript-02-35-22-2288) You know, and I'm not, I'm talking about him like he's a commando secret agent, like he's trying to, and I doubt Doug will ever see this.

[\[02:35:29\]](#transcript-02-35-29-2289) But if he does, brother, I don't mean to insinuate that you're trying to creep into churches and tear them apart.

[\[02:35:34\]](#transcript-02-35-34-2290) We're just talking about the way reality works.

[\[02:35:36\]](#transcript-02-35-36-2291) Yeah.

[\[02:35:36\]](#transcript-02-35-36-2292) A man with a platform has influence.

[\[02:35:38\]](#transcript-02-35-38-2293) Right.

[\[02:35:39\]](#transcript-02-35-39-2294) And his platform, particularly through homeschooling stuff in Canon Press, is if your church has homeschooling families, he has an influence.

[\[02:35:47\]](#transcript-02-35-47-2295) So, just like you, brother, I finally felt like I needed to address it in some sense, because it was making its way into our church.

[\[02:35:54\]](#transcript-02-35-54-2296) No, it's just interesting that you say that because it sounds like you've been involved in it in some way.

[\[02:36:00\]](#transcript-02-36-00-2297) And I've just been noticing, like, well, in my experience, these guys are hostile.

[\[02:36:04\]](#transcript-02-36-04-2298) And that just tells me that that in and alone is an off-putting of the theology.

[\[02:36:10\]](#transcript-02-36-10-2299) Well, and I think for my part, maybe I've not had as much direct in our church, maybe overtly, but I live in a.

[\[02:36:20\]](#transcript-02-36-20-2300) Because you live in a land of the fruit and nuts, bro.

[\[02:36:22\]](#transcript-02-36-22-2301) I live in a very liberal city in North Carolina.

[\[02:36:25\]](#transcript-02-36-25-2302) Yeah.

[\[02:36:26\]](#transcript-02-36-26-2303) So it's a unique environment.

[\[02:36:28\]](#transcript-02-36-28-2304) But I do think that.

[\[02:36:28\]](#transcript-02-36-28-2305) I like the way he said it better.

[\[02:36:30\]](#transcript-02-36-30-2306) Yeah.

[\[02:36:30\]](#transcript-02-36-30-2307) Part of my part of my concerns with some of this too is that because of theonomy's ties to things like Christian nationalism, or because of theonomy's ties to like what you were touching on before, there are a lot

[\[02:36:43\]](#transcript-02-36-43-2308) of people who are frankly afraid of the trajectory of the culture.

[\[02:36:47\]](#transcript-02-36-47-2309) And they do, it's like to see in the pages of scripture to have a theological sort of underpinning to not only validate that concern, but then to also validate action against what they see.

[\[02:37:00\]](#transcript-02-37-00-2310) I think that's every place.

[\[02:37:01\]](#transcript-02-37-01-2311) And I mean, I think you look at the political climate, all of the kinds of things going on in our country.

[\[02:37:05\]](#transcript-02-37-05-2312) I think that every Christian, to some extent or another, is having to wrestle with these things.

[\[02:37:12\]](#transcript-02-37-12-2313) Yeah, political theology that used to just sort of be assumed.

[\[02:37:14\]](#transcript-02-37-14-2314) Yeah.

[\[02:37:15\]](#transcript-02-37-15-2315) Now you kind of just got to figure out where you stand on these things.

[\[02:37:17\]](#transcript-02-37-17-2316) You have to.

[\[02:37:17\]](#transcript-02-37-17-2317) Yeah.

[\[02:37:18\]](#transcript-02-37-18-2318) Yeah.

[\[02:37:18\]](#transcript-02-37-18-2319) You have to.

[\[02:37:18\]](#transcript-02-37-18-2320) And so, yeah, for me, that was a lot of the reason that I was willing to engage on it.

[\[02:37:23\]](#transcript-02-37-23-2321) And because I see in my church our members wrestling with these things and the potential division that can be brought into a congregation, one of our roles as pastors is to protect the church, you know, and to keep

[\[02:37:38\]](#transcript-02-37-38-2322) this kind of division that is of the evil one from manifesting itself in our congregations.

[\[02:37:43\]](#transcript-02-37-43-2323) And so I think you've got to, as a pastor, you've got to be informed on some of these things, and you need to get out in front of it in these ways.

[\[02:37:49\]](#transcript-02-37-49-2324) Not only because the mission of the church, I really do think, is at stake and the clarity of the gospel is at stake.

[\[02:37:55\]](#transcript-02-37-55-2325) We don't want Christ to be obscured, but we also don't want our churches just fractured over this stuff, you know, in terms of like whether voting patterns.

[\[02:38:04\]](#transcript-02-38-04-2326) Go ahead.

[\[02:38:05\]](#transcript-02-38-05-2327) On that note.

[\[02:38:05\]](#transcript-02-38-05-2328) So if you're an elder, a pastor, bishop, whatever you call yourself, presbyter, and you're watching this, Theocast did a series on Theonomy.

[\[02:38:14\]](#transcript-02-38-14-2329) We've done episodes on them.

[\[02:38:15\]](#transcript-02-38-15-2330) Okay.

[\[02:38:16\]](#transcript-02-38-16-2331) And I have a 10,000-word essay on Theocast that's reasonably well-like.

[\[02:38:21\]](#transcript-02-38-21-2332) So just go to Theocast, type in Theonomy, and it'll come up.

[\[02:38:24\]](#transcript-02-38-24-2333) And Nine Marks also published an abridged version of that essay in their journal on the whole they published a journal disguised as a book on theonomy.

[\[02:38:32\]](#transcript-02-38-32-2334) Right.

[\[02:38:33\]](#transcript-02-38-33-2335) Uh, Defendant Confirmed did a series on theonomy, I don't know, four or five-part series on theonomy.

[\[02:38:38\]](#transcript-02-38-38-2336) So there, there are good resources out there from trusted brothers that you can check out.

[\[02:38:42\]](#transcript-02-38-42-2337) Okay, you were going to say something, brother.

[\[02:38:45\]](#transcript-02-38-45-2338) I have a real estate agent who's coming right now to take photos of this building.

[\[02:38:48\]](#transcript-02-38-48-2339) I didn't think we'd be here this long.

[\[02:38:50\]](#transcript-02-38-50-2340) Oh, great.

[\[02:38:50\]](#transcript-02-38-50-2341) Well, that seems like a good place to be in the providence of God.

[\[02:38:53\]](#transcript-02-38-53-2342) Yeah, that and the fact that we want to go eat tacos together is a good reason to land this plane for yeah, we've buzzed the tower only the Lord knows how many times.

[\[02:39:00\]](#transcript-02-39-00-2343) That's right.

[\[02:39:01\]](#transcript-02-39-01-2344) Luke is just sitting here going, I have to drive back to Decatur.

[\[02:39:05\]](#transcript-02-39-05-2345) Hey, listen on a note of hope.

[\[02:39:07\]](#transcript-02-39-07-2346) Theonomy, therapeutic culture, list them out, right?

[\[02:39:10\]](#transcript-02-39-10-2347) All the threats to the gospel: Gnosticism, justification by works.

[\[02:39:14\]](#transcript-02-39-14-2348) The gospel wins.

[\[02:39:16\]](#transcript-02-39-16-2349) Jesus already won.

[\[02:39:17\]](#transcript-02-39-17-2350) It was finished on the cross, it was planned before the foundations of the world.

[\[02:39:21\]](#transcript-02-39-21-2351) Now we are just walking in the works that He's prepared before us, hopeful, confident, trusting that He will lead His people home.

[\[02:39:29\]](#transcript-02-39-29-2352) Amen.

[\[02:39:30\]](#transcript-02-39-30-2353) Amen.

[\[02:39:30\]](#transcript-02-39-30-2354) All right, let's pray.

[\[02:39:31\]](#transcript-02-39-31-2355) Lord, thank you so much for my theocast brothers.

[\[02:39:33\]](#transcript-02-39-33-2356) Thank you for in your providence allowing us to have this time together.

[\[02:39:37\]](#transcript-02-39-37-2357) We pray that any stupid, silly, inaccurate things we've said in this podcast, that you'll just protect our viewers and our listeners from it.

[\[02:39:44\]](#transcript-02-39-44-2358) Anything good and useful, perhaps even challenging that has been said in this podcast, we pray that you'll use it, that you'll work your word down into the hearts of your people.

[\[02:39:54\]](#transcript-02-39-54-2359) Insofar as we've spoken your word, Lord, we pray that you will bless our words.

[\[02:39:58\]](#transcript-02-39-58-2360) Get this episode to exactly those who need to hear it.

[\[02:40:02\]](#transcript-02-40-02-2361) And Lord, protect us and keep us as we go back out into the world to continue to be your ambassadors.

[\[02:40:07\]](#transcript-02-40-07-2362) We pray this in the name of Jesus, the most holy name, the most beautiful name, the most precious name.

[\[02:40:12\]](#transcript-02-40-12-2363) Amen.

[\[02:40:12\]](#transcript-02-40-12-2364) Amen.

[\[02:40:13\]](#transcript-02-40-13-2365) Hey, real quick, Sean.

[\[02:40:14\]](#transcript-02-40-14-2366) Thanks bro.

[\[02:40:14\]](#transcript-02-40-14-2367) If the people want to find you, where will they go?

[\[02:40:17\]](#transcript-02-40-17-2368) Sixth Avenue Community Church, Dick, Alabama.

[\[02:40:20\]](#transcript-02-40-20-2369) I don't know.

[\[02:40:20\]](#transcript-02-40-20-2370) Do we have room for nuanced stuff?

[\[02:40:22\]](#transcript-02-40-22-2371) I don't have personal social media.

[\[02:40:23\]](#transcript-02-40-23-2372) That's what I meant.

[\[02:40:23\]](#transcript-02-40-23-2373) Room.

[\[02:40:24\]](#transcript-02-40-24-2374) Yeah.

[\[02:40:24\]](#transcript-02-40-24-2375) Social media.

[\[02:40:25\]](#transcript-02-40-25-2376) Yeah.

[\[02:40:25\]](#transcript-02-40-25-2377) Just type in room for nuance.

[\[02:40:28\]](#transcript-02-40-28-2378) Just, yeah, it'll say liberal podcast.

[\[02:40:30\]](#transcript-02-40-30-2379) And then you know that's right.

[\[02:40:33\]](#transcript-02-40-33-2380) Hey, everyone, before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you.

[\[02:40:36\]](#transcript-02-40-36-2381) And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it.

[\[02:40:40\]](#transcript-02-40-40-2382) But we also need your support.

[\[02:40:42\]](#transcript-02-40-42-2383) And it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

[\[02:40:46\]](#transcript-02-40-46-2384) So the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.

---

### The Gospel of Sincere Obedience

*Published: September 25, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-gospel-of-sincere-obedience*
*Tags: Obedience*

Oh no, Jon and Justin are talking about obedience again. Yes, we are—and it’s an important subject because, to be frank, we truly want everyone who listens to this podcast to obey sincerely. The question is, how is that accomplished? There is no good news for those who only emphasize obedience. We have to look to a power beyond ourselves, and that’s what we’re going to be discussing today.

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https://youtu.be/1piXjO-q6YU

---

### How to Disagree as Christians

*Published: September 18, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-to-disagree-as-christians*
*Tags: Disagreement*

We live in a time where we’re prone to throw mud, be condescending, self-righteous, and accusatory, and we often misrepresent those with whom we disagree. This behavior doesn’t seem to align with what Scripture teaches about being gentle, kind, patient, and avoiding arguments. So, today, Jon and Justin are going to talk about that. We’ll also discuss the hope we have, our citizenship in heaven, and our Savior, Jesus, and how all of this should inform our posture and interactions with others. We hope this conversation is helpful to you.

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https://youtu.be/ZGecJGACDK0

---

### Radical Discipleship

*Published: September 11, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/radical-discipleship*
*Tags: Biblical Discipleship, Discipleship*

Do you ever wake up thinking, "I just don't do enough for God"? You feel like you need to be doing more. You see so many people with radical ministries and faith, helping so many, and all you do is, well, just go to church. If this sounds familiar, this podcast is for you. The idea of radical discipleship—the belief that you need to do more or something extraordinary for God—creates a pressure that God never intended for anyone to bear. Yet, He gives you a promise of how you can contribute to His kingdom, and it’s called, well, ordinary.

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https://youtu.be/GJBFoe8Fmeg

---

### Law and Gospel (w/ Remnant Radio)

*Published: September 4, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/law-and-gospel-w-remnant-radio*
*Tags: Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction*

Today's episode is a special one. Jon and Justin were recently interviewed by the hosts of Remnant Radio, Josh and Michael, and had a great conversation about all things law and gospel. We discussed the history, confusing passages, and how it is often misused to rob us of assurance. More importantly, we explored how, when used correctly, it can provide deep assurance. We hope you find this conversation encouraging!

[Remnant Radio](https://theremnantradio.com/)  
  
[Join the Theocast Community!](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)  
  
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https://youtu.be/cEtdV6r7Ygk

---

### Godliness vs. Legalism

*Published: August 28, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/godliness-vs-legalism*
*Tags: Legalism*

What is the difference between godliness and legalism? Sometimes, when people define godliness, they actually describe legalism or even pietism. Understanding this distinction is crucial, and the Bible addresses it often. Today, Jon and Justin will explain where true, heart-filled, God-glorifying godliness comes from and reveal the damage caused by the lies of Satan—legalism and pietism. We pray you are encouraged by this conversation.

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https://youtu.be/\_XRDfTQfZPM

---

### We Sin, We Suffer, We Die... Where's the Good News?

*Published: August 21, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/we-sin-we-suffer-we-die-wheres-the-good-news*
*Tags: suffering*

The Christian life is often depicted by American culture as one of prosperity and health, but more frequently, our pilgrimage through this fallen world is characterized by sin, suffering, and ultimately death. Jon and Justin have discussed suffering, sickness, death, and our only hope to escape this harrowing reality in many episodes of Theocast. This compilation features the most informative and helpful portions of those episodes, with the aim of being extremely clear about where we stand, who and what we look to for comfort, and how we should view and endure suffering in this world.

Here’s a list of the episodes featured in this compilation:

[Hope in the Midst of Hell | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/hope-in-the-midst-of-hell/)  
  
["Where Are You, God?" | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/where-are-you-god/)  
  
[Anxiety and the Gospel | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/anxiety-and-the-gospel/)  
  
[He Gets Us | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/he-gets-us/)  
  
[Train Wrecks Welcomed | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/why-those-who-destroyed-their-lives-ran-to-jesus/)  
  
[Feeling Cold and Discouraged? | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/feeling-cold-and-discouraged/)  
  
[Does God Really Love Me? | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/does-god-really-love-me/)  
  
https://youtu.be/bi3CkrwP0rM

---

### For the Outcasts

*Published: August 14, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/for-the-outcasts*
*Tags: Encouragement, Gospel*

Maybe you're out there feeling weary, burdened, beat up, or left behind. Even in your experience as a Christian in the church, you feel like you've been run over, like you don't fit. You know that Jesus is real, but you wonder if the problem is with you. If you've felt this way repeatedly, and if you've been made to feel this way over and over, this podcast is for you.

Today, Jon and Justin are going to have a tender and honest conversation about the things that matter most to us as pastors and why Theocast exists at all: to hold out Jesus Christ for us. He came to save people like you and me. Join us as we rejoice in Him today and talk about Him. We hope you are encouraged.  
  
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https://youtu.be/yR9f8LIOft4

---

### What Robs Us of Rest?

*Published: August 7, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-robs-us-of-rest*
*Tags: Anxiety, Encouragement, Rest, Resting in Christ, Struggling*

Have you ever found yourself resting in Christ, only to suddenly lose that peace? What can rob you of your rest in Christ? Today's podcast addresses this very issue. We will explore the pitfalls that either trap us, preventing us from finding rest, or trip us up once we are at rest, causing anxiety, pain, and suffering. These pitfalls can undermine the very hope we have in the sufficiency of Christ. Join Justin and Jon as they walk through three different areas of life that cause us to lose our rest in Christ. We pray this is encouraging to you.

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https://youtu.be/YfHPZgaMBFs

---

### Stop Preaching the Pietism 'Gospel'

*Published: July 31, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/stop-preaching-the-pietism-gospel*
*Tags: Pietism*

If you are directed inwardly to find the comfort and assurance that Christ has saved you from your sin, you will be of all men most miserable. Jon and Justin have spoken about pietism and its effects on the Christian life in many episodes of Theocast. This is a compilation of the most informative and helpful portions of those episodes, with the aim of being extremely clear on where we stand, what problems we see with pietism, and the subtle yet devastating fruits of the pietism 'gospel' within the local church.

Here’s a list of the episodes featured in this compilation:

[What is Pietism? | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-is-pietism/)  
  
[What Robs Us of Joy? | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-robs-us-of-joy/)  
  
[NOT Sinning Is NOT the Purpose of Your Life | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/not-sinning-is-not-the-purpose-of-your-life/)  
  
[The Prove Yourself Gospel | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/the-prove-yourself-gospel/)  
  
[Leaving Pietism | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/leavingpietism/)  
  
[How Pietism Ruins Good Works | Theocast](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/how-pietism-ruins-good-works/)  
  
https://youtu.be/75wksOfPVlU

---

### Where Is Jesus in My Suffering? (w/ Mike Abendroth)

*Published: July 24, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/where-is-jesus-in-my-suffering-w-mike-abendroth*
*Tags: joy in suffering, suffering*

Today, it seems like if you are not suffering from some kind of ailment or cancer, you know someone who is or have had a family member or friend who has died because of it. It is a painful experience to watch someone lose their life and wither away. At times, our faith is crushed, and our assurance is called into question. Where is Jesus in all of this suffering?

We have the privilege of hosting a special guest, Mike Abendroth, who has recently written a book about this experience from his own perspective. We know this will be encouraging for you. If you get an opportunity to purchase the book, we highly recommend it!  
  
[NoCo Radio](https://nocompromiseradio.com/)  
  
[Mike’s Book: _Cancer Is Not Your Shepherd_](https://a.co/d/8Deve2V)  
  
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https://youtu.be/ZdIxjDkPMG4

---

### There Is No Power in the Law

*Published: July 17, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/there-is-no-power-in-the-law*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: law, law gospel distinction, Three Uses of the Law*

Some of you are probably really concerned about this title, thinking we've gone too far. Well, we're here to defend not ourselves, but to show you from Scripture that all power remains in Christ and Him crucified. The law is only here to guide or convict us. We're going to talk about the different uses of the law, but the law is powerless to save and powerless to sanctify. Let us prove it to you from Scripture.

[Our episode on the Three Uses of the Law](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/intro-to-three-uses-of-the-law/)  
  
[Our episode on Walking by the Spirit](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-does-it-mean-to-walk-by-the-spirit/)  
  
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https://youtu.be/MUt47zf4M9o 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:00\]](#transcript-00-00-00-1) Some of you are probably really concerned about this title.

[\[00:00:04\]](#transcript-00-00-04-2) Guys, you have gone too far.

[\[00:00:06\]](#transcript-00-00-06-3) Well, we're here to defend not ourselves, but we want to show you from scripture that all power remains in Christ and Him crucified, and the law is only but here to guide us or convict us.

[\[00:00:19\]](#transcript-00-00-19-4) And we're going to talk about the different uses of the law, but the law is powerless to save and it's powerless to sanctify.

[\[00:00:26\]](#transcript-00-00-26-5) Let us prove it to you from scripture.

[\[00:00:28\]](#transcript-00-00-28-6) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:28\]](#transcript-00-00-28-7) If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

[\[00:00:31\]](#transcript-00-00-31-8) It's called pietism.

[\[00:00:33\]](#transcript-00-00-33-9) Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy?

[\[00:00:38\]](#transcript-00-00-38-10) That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:00:45\]](#transcript-00-00-45-11) It's dread versus joy, really.

[\[00:00:47\]](#transcript-00-00-47-12) That's pietism.

[\[00:00:48\]](#transcript-00-00-48-13) Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope, not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

[\[00:00:56\]](#transcript-00-00-56-14) And we have a little book for you.

[\[00:00:58\]](#transcript-00-00-58-15) It's free.

[\[00:00:58\]](#transcript-00-00-58-16) We want you to download it, and we're going to explain the difference between Pietism and what we call confessionalism, Reformed theology, really, how it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ.

[\[00:01:09\]](#transcript-00-01-09-17) And when Jesus says, Come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

[\[00:01:13\]](#transcript-00-01-13-18) You can download it at our website.

[\[00:01:15\]](#transcript-00-01-15-19) Just go to theocast.org.

[\[00:01:26\]](#transcript-00-01-26-20) Welcome to Theocast, Encouraging Wary Pilgrims to Rest in Christ.

[\[00:01:30\]](#transcript-00-01-30-21) Conversations about the Christian life from a reformed, pastoral, confessional perspective.

[\[00:01:36\]](#transcript-00-01-36-22) Our aim today, if this is your first time listening, is to pull the clutter off the gospel, which is the power of God to save, and reclaim the purpose of the kingdom, which is God uses the church to

[\[00:01:47\]](#transcript-00-01-47-23) advance his gospel throughout the world to bring those into his kingdom.

[\[00:01:51\]](#transcript-00-01-51-24) That is the purpose.

[\[00:01:52\]](#transcript-00-01-52-25) And that's what we want to talk about today.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-26) Your hosts are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:01:58\]](#transcript-00-01-58-27) And I'm Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:02:00\]](#transcript-00-02-00-28) I'm the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Springhill, Tennessee.

[\[00:02:04\]](#transcript-00-02-04-29) And Justin, it's good to be on the pod.

[\[00:02:06\]](#transcript-00-02-06-30) This is, for those of you who don't know, we sometimes record two episodes in a week.

[\[00:02:11\]](#transcript-00-02-11-31) And so this is our second episode of the day.

[\[00:02:14\]](#transcript-00-02-14-32) That is true, Jon.

[\[00:02:16\]](#transcript-00-02-16-33) Yeah.

[\[00:02:16\]](#transcript-00-02-16-34) Hopefully, we can deliver a second time.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-35) Yeah.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-36) Well, let's see.

[\[00:02:21\]](#transcript-00-02-21-37) When this comes out, we'll be about a week away from GRN.

[\[00:02:24\]](#transcript-00-02-24-38) You still have time to register if you want to come.

[\[00:02:25\]](#transcript-00-02-25-39) We live local in the area, it's going to be in South Nashville, just north of Brentwood at Community Bible Church, and we'd love to have you there.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-40) Justin and I are two days full of panels, lectures, and preaching and singing, and it's all going to be centered around the powerful means of grace.

[\[00:02:43\]](#transcript-00-02-43-41) God comes to us and encourages us by His power and His Spirit through these means.

[\[00:02:48\]](#transcript-00-02-48-42) And so, you're going to want to come hear that and learn more about GRN, a bunch of pastors who are weak and frail, who are looking to Christ and put the gospel in their local cities.

[\[00:03:00\]](#transcript-00-03-00-43) And very soon, globally, we've got some churches that are going to be joining us from around the world.

[\[00:03:05\]](#transcript-00-03-05-44) So please pray for Grace Reform Network as we are adding on several new churches this year.

[\[00:03:12\]](#transcript-00-03-12-45) And if you, if you so desire to help us add more churches and plant more churches, maybe consider partnering with us and donate to the ministry.

[\[00:03:20\]](#transcript-00-03-20-46) So, there's my shameless plug.

[\[00:03:22\]](#transcript-00-03-22-47) Brief plug on that, too.

[\[00:03:23\]](#transcript-00-03-23-48) We are in the early phases of this network's life and are really just getting to the place where the infrastructure is in place to enable us to grow.

[\[00:03:30\]](#transcript-00-03-30-49) And so we're going to be putting more of our effort into growth in the coming years.

[\[00:03:35\]](#transcript-00-03-35-50) And we would be very grateful for any ways that you would partner with us in that effort.

[\[00:03:40\]](#transcript-00-03-40-51) And so I'm sure you'll hear occasionally us mention the Grace Reform Network here on Theocast.

[\[00:03:45\]](#transcript-00-03-45-52) And if you ever have any questions, hit us up.

[\[00:03:47\]](#transcript-00-03-47-53) We'd love to give you more info.

[\[00:03:49\]](#transcript-00-03-49-54) Sometimes, Justin, when we do these podcasts, we create questions.

[\[00:03:52\]](#transcript-00-03-52-55) I know there's an advertisement coming later, but I'll say it now.

[\[00:03:55\]](#transcript-00-03-55-56) We have a growing community of over 1,500 people in our app.

[\[00:03:58\]](#transcript-00-03-58-57) It's a private app, and it is, you can only access it through our system.

[\[00:04:04\]](#transcript-00-04-04-58) And we like it that way because it keeps out advertisements and spamming and all of that.

[\[00:04:09\]](#transcript-00-04-09-59) It's a great place for encouragement, for questions, for fellowship.

[\[00:04:14\]](#transcript-00-04-14-60) There are lectures in there.

[\[00:04:15\]](#transcript-00-04-15-61) Justin has one on the three uses of the law, law, gospel, distinction, the history of the Reformation.

[\[00:04:20\]](#transcript-00-04-20-62) I have in stuff in there on prayer.

[\[00:04:23\]](#transcript-00-04-23-63) What else?

[\[00:04:24\]](#transcript-00-04-24-64) Spiritual warfare.

[\[00:04:24\]](#transcript-00-04-24-65) I know, there's a lot of stuff in there.

[\[00:04:26\]](#transcript-00-04-26-66) All of our previous podcasts, Justin's sermons, my sermons, and all of the conferences we've ever done.

[\[00:04:31\]](#transcript-00-04-31-67) It's all in the app.

[\[00:04:32\]](#transcript-00-04-32-68) And you can go access that for free.

[\[00:04:34\]](#transcript-00-04-34-69) If you want to join and donate to our ministry, there's an opportunity for that as well.

[\[00:04:38\]](#transcript-00-04-38-70) Justin, let's not waste any more time.

[\[00:04:40\]](#transcript-00-04-40-71) Not that we said was wasteful, but we want to get into the topic of today, which, you know, it could sound punchy, but we're just trying to do what Paul did and pull the clutter off the law here.

[\[00:04:52\]](#transcript-00-04-52-72) Let's let the law be what it's for, and let's let the gospel be what it's for.

[\[00:04:55\]](#transcript-00-04-55-73) So, talk to us about what do you mean there is no law?

[\[00:05:00\]](#transcript-00-05-00-74) Sorry, there's no power in the law.

[\[00:05:01\]](#transcript-00-05-01-75) Go.

[\[00:05:02\]](#transcript-00-05-02-76) I would say it's more than punchy.

[\[00:05:03\]](#transcript-00-05-03-77) It sounds borderline blasphemous, and we're just

[\[00:05:07\]](#transcript-00-05-07-78) yeah, now we want to defend ourselves, right?

[\[00:05:09\]](#transcript-00-05-09-79) Uh, because of a title that we came up with, but we are trying to take our cue from the Apostle Paul and from the other apostles, from Jesus.

[\[00:05:17\]](#transcript-00-05-17-80) But Paul, especially, when he says that the law is good provided that it's used lawfully, we're going to talk about lawfully using the law today.

[\[00:05:26\]](#transcript-00-05-26-81) And I think it's important to make this observation.

[\[00:05:30\]](#transcript-00-05-30-82) Nobody ever accused Paul of being a legalist.

[\[00:05:33\]](#transcript-00-05-33-83) He was always accused effectively of being against Moses, right?

[\[00:05:38\]](#transcript-00-05-38-84) And Jesus as well.

[\[00:05:40\]](#transcript-00-05-40-85) I mean, accused of similar things.

[\[00:05:42\]](#transcript-00-05-42-86) So we're in good company in thinking about the law this way.

[\[00:05:46\]](#transcript-00-05-46-87) So, what we want to do, the title, again, there is no power in the law.

[\[00:05:51\]](#transcript-00-05-51-88) There's power in the blood, amen.

[\[00:05:52\]](#transcript-00-05-52-89) And there is power in the gospel.

[\[00:05:55\]](#transcript-00-05-55-90) It is the power of God.

[\[00:05:56\]](#transcript-00-05-56-91) The gospel is.

[\[00:05:57\]](#transcript-00-05-57-92) The message of Christ is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe.

[\[00:06:02\]](#transcript-00-06-02-93) The law is good?

[\[00:06:03\]](#transcript-00-06-03-94) So don't misunderstand us.

[\[00:06:05\]](#transcript-00-06-05-95) The law is good, the law is holy, the law of God is wise.

[\[00:06:10\]](#transcript-00-06-10-96) Amen.

[\[00:06:11\]](#transcript-00-06-11-97) It is righteous.

[\[00:06:13\]](#transcript-00-06-13-98) All of those things.

[\[00:06:15\]](#transcript-00-06-15-99) And the law, in and of itself, does not have power to save anyone.

[\[00:06:20\]](#transcript-00-06-20-100) And the law, in and of itself, does not have power to sanctify anyone.

[\[00:06:25\]](#transcript-00-06-25-101) Both of those are important.

[\[00:06:26\]](#transcript-00-06-26-102) I'll just go ahead and say right now.

[\[00:06:28\]](#transcript-00-06-28-103) When it comes to salvation, the law can not save, it can only kill.

[\[00:06:33\]](#transcript-00-06-33-104) And when it comes to sanctification, the transformation of a Christian's life, the law cannot change or transform, it can only guide.

[\[00:06:42\]](#transcript-00-06-42-105) That's right.

[\[00:06:43\]](#transcript-00-06-43-106) And so we just want to be really clear about those things today because there's a lot of confusion out there with the podcast last week that we trust many of you have heard.

[\[00:06:53\]](#transcript-00-06-53-107) We really went against what we called moral preaching, or we might even call it law preaching, that is devoid of gospel, where it's all about what we're to do or not do.

[\[00:07:03\]](#transcript-00-07-03-108) And we're kind of going that at that again today because there's a lot of preaching in churches across this land and across this world that are basically just the preaching is law, as though the law can do something,

[\[00:07:17\]](#transcript-00-07-17-109) and as though the law alone is what we need.

[\[00:07:20\]](#transcript-00-07-20-110) And this is the instinct of many people.

[\[00:07:23\]](#transcript-00-07-23-111) Whether it's the church needs to preach law so that people will live better, just unashamedly, we're just about better living, we're about making better people who are more morally upright.

[\[00:07:34\]](#transcript-00-07-34-112) Or even if it's a church where the gospel is wonderful and the gospel is preached, but the instinct is something like, okay, yeah, we get the gospel, but now, let's move on to the more important matters of the

[\[00:07:46\]](#transcript-00-07-46-113) Christian life.

[\[00:07:48\]](#transcript-00-07-48-114) Tell me what to do, give me the insight, give me the marching orders, whatever.

[\[00:07:52\]](#transcript-00-07-52-115) There's just a lot of law preaching out there.

[\[00:07:54\]](#transcript-00-07-54-116) And what we are contending for is the preaching of law and gospel.

[\[00:07:59\]](#transcript-00-07-59-117) And even though the law is holy, good, righteous, wise, we're saying it has no power to save, no power to sanctify.

[\[00:08:05\]](#transcript-00-08-05-118) When the law is preached the right way with the gospel, when the law and the gospel are rightly divided, wonderful things happen.

[\[00:08:14\]](#transcript-00-08-14-119) And the law and the gospel are not contradictory, but they are complementary in God's economy of salvation.

[\[00:08:19\]](#transcript-00-08-19-120) And I hope that this podcast today, I know you do too, will make that even more clear.

[\[00:08:24\]](#transcript-00-08-24-121) Yeah, Justin, I love how you say that because it's sometimes in Christianity, and this is antinomianism, where we just ditched the law all together.

[\[00:08:33\]](#transcript-00-08-33-122) And it's like, well, we're going to walk.

[\[00:08:34\]](#transcript-00-08-34-123) We are not doing.

[\[00:08:35\]](#transcript-00-08-35-124) No, we're going to walk by the Spirit.

[\[00:08:37\]](#transcript-00-08-37-125) Well, dear friend, to walk by the spirit, or whatever.

[\[00:08:40\]](#transcript-00-08-40-126) Yeah.

[\[00:08:41\]](#transcript-00-08-41-127) Yeah.

[\[00:08:41\]](#transcript-00-08-41-128) But you need the law because the law is then what guides you to do that.

[\[00:08:45\]](#transcript-00-08-45-129) The way I would look at it is, Justin, is that when you understand what the law is.

[\[00:08:51\]](#transcript-00-08-51-130) You know,

[\[00:08:54\]](#transcript-00-08-54-131) what do we, in order for, yeah, I have three children who are driving now in my home.

[\[00:08:59\]](#transcript-00-08-59-132) I feel really old at the moment, but I've had to give them the instructions on how to perform not only the proper means of driving, but also the rules of the road.

[\[00:09:09\]](#transcript-00-09-09-133) And why would I want to do that?

[\[00:09:12\]](#transcript-00-09-12-134) Because it's what keeps them safe in using a very powerful machine, something that can be extremely beneficial and helpful, or it can be very dangerous.

[\[00:09:21\]](#transcript-00-09-21-135) And that's exactly how the law works in the believer's life.

[\[00:09:24\]](#transcript-00-09-24-136) What powers us is not the instructions, it's that which we are being carried in.

[\[00:09:30\]](#transcript-00-09-30-137) We're being carried by Christ.

[\[00:09:32\]](#transcript-00-09-32-138) But as we are being moved by Christ, our flesh still wants to get in the way.

[\[00:09:37\]](#transcript-00-09-37-139) And the law is what guides and protects us and keeps us from not going off the rails.

[\[00:09:41\]](#transcript-00-09-41-140) And when you understand this illustration, we love the law.

[\[00:09:45\]](#transcript-00-09-45-141) The law is extremely helpful, but it is not the power that actually does anything.

[\[00:09:51\]](#transcript-00-09-51-142) That is always done by Christ.

[\[00:09:53\]](#transcript-00-09-53-143) And so I think when you say that phrase that you used, it's really important because what we're actually trying to do is elevate the law and make its value really helpful, but not put our trust in the law

[\[00:10:06\]](#transcript-00-10-06-144) as far as the means by which we are going to obey.

[\[00:10:09\]](#transcript-00-10-09-145) Well, and to even piggyback on 1 Timothy 1:8, that the law is good provided it's used lawfully.

[\[00:10:15\]](#transcript-00-10-15-146) When the law is used unlawfully, when you try to make the law do something that it cannot do, it actually becomes harmful and detrimental, which is why there's so much ink spilled in the New Testament on the fact

[\[00:10:26\]](#transcript-00-10-26-147) that we cannot be justified by works of the law.

[\[00:10:30\]](#transcript-00-10-30-148) Paul throws such sharp elbows on that, as do the other apostles, as does Jesus.

[\[00:10:34\]](#transcript-00-10-34-149) I mean, even in the ways that he handles the law and the gospel, which we've talked about at a number of other points.

[\[00:10:38\]](#transcript-00-10-38-150) Yeah.

[\[00:10:39\]](#transcript-00-10-39-151) Can I use one more verse there?

[\[00:10:40\]](#transcript-00-10-40-152) Sure.

[\[00:10:41\]](#transcript-00-10-41-153) Hebrews 7:19, for the law made nothing perfect.

[\[00:10:44\]](#transcript-00-10-44-154) But on the other hand, a better hope is introduced through which we draw near to Christ.

[\[00:10:49\]](#transcript-00-10-49-155) What's the whole book of Hebrews about?

[\[00:10:50\]](#transcript-00-10-50-156) Christ.

[\[00:10:51\]](#transcript-00-10-51-157) Yeah, Christ is better, He's greater.

[\[00:10:53\]](#transcript-00-10-53-158) So we've talked, I want to just do this really quickly, Jon, and then we can dive in further.

[\[00:10:58\]](#transcript-00-10-58-159) We have talked at a number of points too over the years about the three uses of the law, historically understood.

[\[00:11:03\]](#transcript-00-11-03-160) I just want to do this quickly.

[\[00:11:04\]](#transcript-00-11-04-161) And this will differ.

[\[00:11:05\]](#transcript-00-11-05-162) Number one and two will differ depending on whether you're talking to a Lutheran or a Reformed person, but that's neither here nor there.

[\[00:11:10\]](#transcript-00-11-10-163) The three uses are still the same.

[\[00:11:13\]](#transcript-00-11-13-164) Yeah, I in our conversation earlier today, I did that.

[\[00:11:15\]](#transcript-00-11-15-165) I pressed the numbers up.

[\[00:11:17\]](#transcript-00-11-17-166) So, the way that we often articulate it here: the first and greatest use of the law, so, like a Romans 3, Romans 5, Romans 7, Galatians 3 reality is to show us our sin and drive us to Christ.

[\[00:11:27\]](#transcript-00-11-27-167) It's that kind of theological use.

[\[00:11:29\]](#transcript-00-11-29-168) It's the mirror, you know, where we assess ourselves in light of the law and we're crushed in our sin and driven to Christ who kept it for us.

[\[00:11:37\]](#transcript-00-11-37-169) As we would define the second use, that's the more broad civil use.

[\[00:11:41\]](#transcript-00-11-41-170) It curbs human corruption.

[\[00:11:43\]](#transcript-00-11-43-171) And then the third use is to guide our living in Christ.

[\[00:11:47\]](#transcript-00-11-47-172) And so that's for the believer.

[\[00:11:49\]](#transcript-00-11-49-173) It's not condemnatory, it's not threatening as it pertains to our standing, but it tells us what's good for us, what's good for our neighbor, what does righteousness look like, and what are things that we should run from because

[\[00:12:02\]](#transcript-00-12-02-174) it's going to ruin us.

[\[00:12:03\]](#transcript-00-12-03-175) Those kinds of things.

[\[00:12:04\]](#transcript-00-12-04-176) We're guided by the law, right?

[\[00:12:05\]](#transcript-00-12-05-177) Because we don't have wisdom in and of ourselves.

[\[00:12:07\]](#transcript-00-12-07-178) So I hope that's clear for people.

[\[00:12:10\]](#transcript-00-12-10-179) I want to dive into some scripture.

[\[00:12:12\]](#transcript-00-12-12-180) Even when it comes to that first use of the law, Jon, that mirror use to show us our sin and drive us to Christ.

[\[00:12:19\]](#transcript-00-12-19-181) The law in and of itself does not have power to do that apart from the Holy Spirit accompanying it.

[\[00:12:26\]](#transcript-00-12-26-182) And I think Romans 7, 1 through 13-ish makes that very clear.

[\[00:12:30\]](#transcript-00-12-30-183) So in the early verses of Romans 7, Paul makes it plain that we have to be, we used to belong to the law, and now as believers, we actually have died to the law in Christ.

[\[00:12:42\]](#transcript-00-12-42-184) So we've been united to Jesus in his death.

[\[00:12:45\]](#transcript-00-12-45-185) His death counts as our death.

[\[00:12:48\]](#transcript-00-12-48-186) And so the death that lawbreakers deserve, Jesus died it, and in him we did too.

[\[00:12:53\]](#transcript-00-12-53-187) And so, because a death has occurred, we no longer belong to the law.

[\[00:12:58\]](#transcript-00-12-58-188) And we needed to be set free from the law.

[\[00:13:00\]](#transcript-00-13-00-189) We now belong to Jesus.

[\[00:13:01\]](#transcript-00-13-01-190) And this is how we're actually able to serve God.

[\[00:13:04\]](#transcript-00-13-04-191) And Paul says in like verses 4, 5, 6 of Romans 7, that before, when we were unregenerate, before we'd been united to Christ, the law only served to exacerbate our passions.

[\[00:13:18\]](#transcript-00-13-18-192) So, this is important.

[\[00:13:19\]](#transcript-00-13-19-193) So, even when we preach the law and try to apply it to the heart, like Jesus does in Matthew 5, and there are other places in Scripture, but that's maybe the most epic one where he says, you know,

[\[00:13:32\]](#transcript-00-13-32-194) you've heard it said that you shouldn't murder.

[\[00:13:35\]](#transcript-00-13-35-195) And then he makes it plain that if you've been angry, you're a lawbreaker and liable to the hell of fire.

[\[00:13:39\]](#transcript-00-13-39-196) And you've heard it said, don't commit adultery.

[\[00:13:42\]](#transcript-00-13-42-197) But I'm telling you, if you've looked at someone with lustful intent, you're a lawbreaker, that kind of thing.

[\[00:13:46\]](#transcript-00-13-46-198) Even preaching the law that way, apart from the power of the Holy Spirit for us as fallen people, all that's going to do is exacerbate our passions.

[\[00:13:56\]](#transcript-00-13-56-199) When things are forbidden, we want them all the more as fallen people.

[\[00:13:59\]](#transcript-00-13-59-200) There's something really epically wrong with us because this is how we all operate.

[\[00:14:03\]](#transcript-00-14-03-201) But then Paul pivots, beginning in Romans 7:7, and he makes it really clear how the Lord used the law for him.

[\[00:14:12\]](#transcript-00-14-12-202) And when the law is accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit, Paul sees that he's ruined and all of his legal hopes.

[\[00:14:20\]](#transcript-00-14-20-203) Remember, this is a man, he writes in Philippians 3, right?

[\[00:14:23\]](#transcript-00-14-23-204) That he, righteousness according to the law, blameless, right?

[\[00:14:26\]](#transcript-00-14-26-205) He had all this confidence in the life that he had lived and in the disciplines that he had and all that.

[\[00:14:31\]](#transcript-00-14-31-206) But the law, when it's accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit, showed him that all of his legal hopes were dashed, and it showed him that he was ruined, and it showed him through the commandment, he says,

[\[00:14:44\]](#transcript-00-14-44-207) sin becomes sinful beyond measure.

[\[00:14:46\]](#transcript-00-14-46-208) Right?

[\[00:14:47\]](#transcript-00-14-47-209) So, sin is shown to be sin through the right preaching of the law, when the Holy Spirit accompanies it and gives us eyes to see.

[\[00:14:54\]](#transcript-00-14-54-210) But then, what does that first use of the law?

[\[00:14:57\]](#transcript-00-14-57-211) What do we do with it?

[\[00:14:58\]](#transcript-00-14-58-212) I mean, rightly said, that first use of the law preaching, we're trying to kill everyone.

[\[00:15:03\]](#transcript-00-15-03-213) We're trying to crush everyone in terms of our hope, in our own merit, in our own legal righteousness.

[\[00:15:10\]](#transcript-00-15-10-214) So that this is important.

[\[00:15:12\]](#transcript-00-15-12-215) We preach the law this way so that we can then herald Christ.

[\[00:15:18\]](#transcript-00-15-18-216) So, this is law and gospel preaching.

[\[00:15:20\]](#transcript-00-15-20-217) So, it's not just that you mow everybody down with the law.

[\[00:15:23\]](#transcript-00-15-23-218) Like, hey, this is what God requires, and you haven't done it.

[\[00:15:26\]](#transcript-00-15-26-219) Like, ain't nobody done this, not even for five minutes.

[\[00:15:28\]](#transcript-00-15-28-220) Like, that's that's great, but that's not Christian preaching.

[\[00:15:33\]](#transcript-00-15-33-221) Christian preaching is then, that's true, you haven't done this, but oh, beloved, let me tell you of the one who's done it in your place.

[\[00:15:40\]](#transcript-00-15-40-222) Let me tell you of the one who has taken all of your law breaking upon himself and he died for it and he made satisfaction for it.

[\[00:15:49\]](#transcript-00-15-49-223) And because God is good and just, he doesn't just sweep under the swim, sweep sin under the rug, but that's not what he's done because he designed it this way that he would crush his son in the place

[\[00:16:01\]](#transcript-00-16-01-224) of sinners, right?

[\[00:16:03\]](#transcript-00-16-03-225) So we preach that and then we preach Jesus as the law keeper, and it's as though we have been as obedient as he was obedient for us.

[\[00:16:12\]](#transcript-00-16-12-226) And we receive all of that by faith in Christ.

[\[00:16:14\]](#transcript-00-16-14-227) So, even with that first use of the law of peace, even when the power of the Spirit accompanies it, that really is only laying us open, Jon, in order to make us fertile soil for the seed of the

[\[00:16:25\]](#transcript-00-16-25-228) gospel to be sown.

[\[00:16:26\]](#transcript-00-16-26-229) Right?

[\[00:16:27\]](#transcript-00-16-27-230) Amen.

[\[00:16:27\]](#transcript-00-16-27-231) Yeah.

[\[00:16:28\]](#transcript-00-16-28-232) Yeah.

[\[00:16:29\]](#transcript-00-16-29-233) A couple of things.

[\[00:16:31\]](#transcript-00-16-31-234) First of all, if you're new to Theocast, we in the notes, or you can go look it up.

[\[00:16:35\]](#transcript-00-16-35-235) We have an entire series on the three uses of the law.

[\[00:16:37\]](#transcript-00-16-37-236) Highly recommend you to go listen to that.

[\[00:16:40\]](#transcript-00-16-40-237) That'll expound on a little what Justin just said, which was great.

[\[00:16:43\]](#transcript-00-16-43-238) We also have a podcast on what does it mean to walk by the power of the spirit, which I'm going to kind of allude to right now.

[\[00:16:49\]](#transcript-00-16-49-239) Justin, this is this

[\[00:16:52\]](#transcript-00-16-52-240) tendency towards trusting in the flesh or the law.

[\[00:16:57\]](#transcript-00-16-57-241) When we say trust in the flesh, what we mean is when Paul says, I have the desire to do what is right, but not the capacities to carry it out.

[\[00:17:06\]](#transcript-00-17-06-242) That's what he's fighting for constantly.

[\[00:17:09\]](#transcript-00-17-09-243) He's sympathetic to that desire of going, I can do this.

[\[00:17:13\]](#transcript-00-17-13-244) I can do this.

[\[00:17:14\]](#transcript-00-17-14-245) I know I can do this.

[\[00:17:15\]](#transcript-00-17-15-246) And then the scripture goes in and goes, but don't try it because you will fail.

[\[00:17:20\]](#transcript-00-17-20-247) So, probably the most clear place that he puts this is in Galatians chapter three, and he says, Oh, foolish Galatians who bewitched you.

[\[00:17:29\]](#transcript-00-17-29-248) So he, it's a that's very strong language.

[\[00:17:31\]](#transcript-00-17-31-249) He's saying this is like demonic, you know, that, right?

[\[00:17:35\]](#transcript-00-17-35-250) Like, this is not of the spiritual realm of Christ, this is of the spiritual realm of the evil.

[\[00:17:40\]](#transcript-00-17-40-251) He says, It was before your very eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.

[\[00:17:43\]](#transcript-00-17-43-252) Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

[\[00:17:49\]](#transcript-00-17-49-253) Now, this is important.

[\[00:17:50\]](#transcript-00-17-50-254) How did you start?

[\[00:17:51\]](#transcript-00-17-51-255) How did you come into the family of God?

[\[00:17:54\]](#transcript-00-17-54-256) I mean, Ephesians 2 just slap you upside the head, not by works, lest any man should boast, right?

[\[00:17:58\]](#transcript-00-17-58-257) Not by obedience.

[\[00:18:00\]](#transcript-00-18-00-258) So, are you so foolish having begun by the Spirit?

[\[00:18:03\]](#transcript-00-18-03-259) Are you now being perfected by the flesh?

[\[00:18:06\]](#transcript-00-18-06-260) Do you suffer so many things that is in vain?

[\[00:18:09\]](#transcript-00-18-09-261) Right?

[\[00:18:10\]](#transcript-00-18-10-262) Verse 5: Does he who supply the spirit to you and works miracles among you?

[\[00:18:15\]](#transcript-00-18-15-263) I love that he talks about the supernatural work that's happening now.

[\[00:18:20\]](#transcript-00-18-20-264) Do so by works.

[\[00:18:21\]](#transcript-00-18-21-265) Now, this, I love this: by works of the law or by hearing with faith.

[\[00:18:27\]](#transcript-00-18-27-266) Paul is not downplaying the law, he's not belittling it.

[\[00:18:29\]](#transcript-00-18-29-267) He's not casting it aside.

[\[00:18:32\]](#transcript-00-18-32-268) He's saying, you are not using it as it was designed.

[\[00:18:35\]](#transcript-00-18-35-269) You are not living according to its purpose.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-270) The way in which we continue in our progression and faith.

[\[00:18:44\]](#transcript-00-18-44-271) The way in which we grow into the likeness of Christ is by faith.

[\[00:18:47\]](#transcript-00-18-47-272) And Justin, he points it out clearly: it's faith in the work of Christ.

[\[00:18:52\]](#transcript-00-18-52-273) Amen.

[\[00:18:53\]](#transcript-00-18-53-274) I love this when Paul says, We walk by faith, right?

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-275) And that's how we don't fulfill the lust of the flesh.

[\[00:19:00\]](#transcript-00-19-00-276) What we hear in modern-day preaching is the law, law, law.

[\[00:19:04\]](#transcript-00-19-04-277) If you don't want to obey the flesh, you want to stop lusting and stop all your problems.

[\[00:19:09\]](#transcript-00-19-09-278) It's law, law, law.

[\[00:19:10\]](#transcript-00-19-10-279) And Paul goes, no, no, it's not.

[\[00:19:13\]](#transcript-00-19-13-280) It's demonic.

[\[00:19:14\]](#transcript-00-19-14-281) It's actually Christ, Christ, Christ.

[\[00:19:16\]](#transcript-00-19-16-282) Because walking by faith is to receive the righteousness of Christ.

[\[00:19:20\]](#transcript-00-19-20-283) To walk by the Spirit is to receive the righteousness of Christ.

[\[00:19:23\]](#transcript-00-19-23-284) And so that's what we need to continue to be exhorted in.

[\[00:19:26\]](#transcript-00-19-26-285) Keep trusting him, keep looking to him, right?

[\[00:19:29\]](#transcript-00-19-29-286) And then, yes, your law, the law of God is a, is a perfect guide for your life.

[\[00:19:34\]](#transcript-00-19-34-287) Amen.

[\[00:19:34\]](#transcript-00-19-34-288) So he does this.

[\[00:19:35\]](#transcript-00-19-35-289) What he's talking about.

[\[00:19:36\]](#transcript-00-19-36-290) Yeah, he does this twice in 1 Peter and in 2 Peter, but I'm going to go to 2 Peter.

[\[00:19:41\]](#transcript-00-19-41-291) How he starts it, Justin.

[\[00:19:44\]](#transcript-00-19-44-292) And this is part of what when we say pull the clutter off the gospel.

[\[00:19:47\]](#transcript-00-19-47-293) Justin and I want to reclaim the power of the gospel.

[\[00:19:50\]](#transcript-00-19-50-294) And when I mean power, I mean the supernatural work of the spirit.

[\[00:19:54\]](#transcript-00-19-54-295) When Jesus says that it's like the wind blowing and he does a work, we believe that there's an actual supernatural work happening here.

[\[00:20:03\]](#transcript-00-20-03-296) He says, 1 Peter 1:3, His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

[\[00:20:10\]](#transcript-00-20-10-297) Justin, that should just wrap it up and sum it up right there.

[\[00:20:12\]](#transcript-00-20-12-298) Now he goes into the third use of the law later on.

[\[00:20:15\]](#transcript-00-20-15-299) Now, if this is true about you, here's how you should obey.

[\[00:20:18\]](#transcript-00-20-18-300) Yeah.

[\[00:20:18\]](#transcript-00-20-18-301) But he says the power to do so is divine, it's not flesh, it's divine.

[\[00:20:24\]](#transcript-00-20-24-302) I mean, that should just wrap up this argument.

[\[00:20:26\]](#transcript-00-20-26-303) Case closed, right?

[\[00:20:28\]](#transcript-00-20-28-304) But how many writers of the New Testament?

[\[00:20:30\]](#transcript-00-20-30-305) This is like, was our fourth book we've quoted so far?

[\[00:20:33\]](#transcript-00-20-33-306) Yeah.

[\[00:20:33\]](#transcript-00-20-33-307) They're all having to clarify what we keep falling into.

[\[00:20:36\]](#transcript-00-20-36-308) Yeah.

[\[00:20:36\]](#transcript-00-20-36-309) I'll jump on this sanctification, obedience, third use of the law stuff too.

[\[00:20:44\]](#transcript-00-20-44-310) The law can only guide, can't transform.

[\[00:20:46\]](#transcript-00-20-46-311) What transforms?

[\[00:20:47\]](#transcript-00-20-47-312) It is literally, it is the power of God at work in us, right?

[\[00:20:51\]](#transcript-00-20-51-313) Through our union, our vital union with Jesus Christ.

[\[00:20:54\]](#transcript-00-20-54-314) This is the Romans 6 argument in other places, John 15.

[\[00:20:59\]](#transcript-00-20-59-315) I mean, so both immediately pop into my mind.

[\[00:21:02\]](#transcript-00-21-02-316) In Romans 6, the argument's very clear.

[\[00:21:04\]](#transcript-00-21-04-317) Like, we shouldn't continue in sin because we've been united to Christ.

[\[00:21:08\]](#transcript-00-21-08-318) We've been baptized into Him, right?

[\[00:21:10\]](#transcript-00-21-10-319) We're united with Him in His death.

[\[00:21:11\]](#transcript-00-21-11-320) We're united to Him in resurrection power.

[\[00:21:13\]](#transcript-00-21-13-321) What's that mean?

[\[00:21:14\]](#transcript-00-21-14-322) It's the Ephesians 1, end of Ephesians 1 argument, right?

[\[00:21:18\]](#transcript-00-21-18-323) That the very power of God that raised Jesus from the dead is the power that's at work in believers, right, unto sanctification.

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-324) And we've been justified from sin's guilt, and we've been set free from its tyranny, and we're not under the law anymore, we're under grace, but we've become obedient from the heart.

[\[00:21:36\]](#transcript-00-21-36-325) Like, this is the argument, and it's all through our vital union with Christ.

[\[00:21:41\]](#transcript-00-21-41-326) We've said this before, I'll say it again: that the believer's sanctification comes from the same source and rests on the same foundation as our justification, and that is union with Christ by faith.

[\[00:21:53\]](#transcript-00-21-53-327) So, this is why we continue to preach Jesus.

[\[00:21:55\]](#transcript-00-21-55-328) You want to see sanctified people in the church preach Christ and then guide people with the law.

[\[00:22:01\]](#transcript-00-22-01-329) Right.

[\[00:22:01\]](#transcript-00-22-01-330) Confirm them in the faith.

[\[00:22:03\]](#transcript-00-22-03-331) Extol as much as possible the grace of Jesus and watch what the Lord will do in growing his people.

[\[00:22:10\]](#transcript-00-22-10-332) John 15, right?

[\[00:22:12\]](#transcript-00-22-12-333) Apart from me, you can do nothing, Jesus says.

[\[00:22:14\]](#transcript-00-22-14-334) If you're united to me, I'm the living vine.

[\[00:22:17\]](#transcript-00-22-17-335) If you are united to me, you will bear fruit.

[\[00:22:21\]](#transcript-00-22-21-336) Right.

[\[00:22:22\]](#transcript-00-22-22-337) Now, again, this isn't we let go and let God.

[\[00:22:25\]](#transcript-00-22-25-338) I mean, that's not what we're saying, but what we are clearly advocating for is hold Jesus out and preach Jesus out, preach the love and the mercy and the grace and the power of Christ to the believer.

[\[00:22:37\]](#transcript-00-22-37-339) Guide the believer with the law that is good.

[\[00:22:40\]](#transcript-00-22-40-340) And the Lord will use that to transform and to sanctify.

[\[00:22:45\]](#transcript-00-22-45-341) But just beating people with the law or merely telling people to try harder and do better, there's no power in that.

[\[00:22:54\]](#transcript-00-22-54-342) Hey, guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:22:59\]](#transcript-00-22-59-343) So, where do you go?

[\[00:23:00\]](#transcript-00-23-00-344) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:23:04\]](#transcript-00-23-04-345) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources there.

[\[00:23:13\]](#transcript-00-23-13-346) Past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there.

[\[00:23:17\]](#transcript-00-23-17-347) And you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:23:18\]](#transcript-00-23-18-348) You can go check it out.

[\[00:23:20\]](#transcript-00-23-20-349) The link is in the description below.

[\[00:23:22\]](#transcript-00-23-22-350) Well, just to your point, you know, the famous verse, Romans 10:17: So faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ.

[\[00:23:32\]](#transcript-00-23-32-351) And I don't believe that just means to the unbeliever.

[\[00:23:34\]](#transcript-00-23-34-352) I think it is to the believer because what is Paul keeps saying to increase our faith, to help our faith grow into maturity, it is the heralding of Christ.

[\[00:23:44\]](#transcript-00-23-44-353) It's the continuing reminder of the work of what Christ has done.

[\[00:23:47\]](#transcript-00-23-47-354) That doesn't mean to the exclusion of the law.

[\[00:23:50\]](#transcript-00-23-50-355) No.

[\[00:23:50\]](#transcript-00-23-50-356) What he means is that faith is what we walk by, so we need that to be strengthened constantly so that we can obey the law.

[\[00:23:58\]](#transcript-00-23-58-357) The law is a good diet, it is a faithful preacher of the Bible will preach the law, right?

[\[00:24:05\]](#transcript-00-24-05-358) But he must power his listener through the means of Christ.

[\[00:24:10\]](#transcript-00-24-10-359) And that's what we're trying to get into order here.

[\[00:24:12\]](#transcript-00-24-12-360) The law needs to have its proper place.

[\[00:24:14\]](#transcript-00-24-14-361) It's instructions, it's not power.

[\[00:24:16\]](#transcript-00-24-16-362) Where's power?

[\[00:24:17\]](#transcript-00-24-17-363) Power is in Christ.

[\[00:24:18\]](#transcript-00-24-18-364) So we feed on Christ and then we receive the, like, I love how it's the sandwich effect, Justin.

[\[00:24:24\]](#transcript-00-24-24-365) I don't know if you can point out a passage in scripture that even James will use the sandwich effect of Christ for you.

[\[00:24:32\]](#transcript-00-24-32-366) Now obey, remember Christ.

[\[00:24:35\]](#transcript-00-24-35-367) They always use that sandwich effect.

[\[00:24:37\]](#transcript-00-24-37-368) It's incredible.

[\[00:24:38\]](#transcript-00-24-38-369) I mean, Romans again, right?

[\[00:24:40\]](#transcript-00-24-40-370) You know, you get the justification that we have in Christ, the imputation of Christ's righteousness.

[\[00:24:45\]](#transcript-00-24-45-371) We have peace with God now and forever.

[\[00:24:47\]](#transcript-00-24-47-372) We've been united to Christ, right?

[\[00:24:49\]](#transcript-00-24-49-373) And we've become obedient from the heart, all the things.

[\[00:24:51\]](#transcript-00-24-51-374) There still is going to be a struggle.

[\[00:24:53\]](#transcript-00-24-53-375) We delight in the law of God in our inner being now because we're born again, but yet we don't have the power, we don't have the ability to live in accord with it perfectly.

[\[00:25:02\]](#transcript-00-25-02-376) Who's going to deliver us?

[\[00:25:03\]](#transcript-00-25-03-377) Jesus will.

[\[00:25:03\]](#transcript-00-25-03-378) There's no condemnation for any of us who are in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:25:07\]](#transcript-00-25-07-379) We're groaning.

[\[00:25:08\]](#transcript-00-25-08-380) The creation's groaning, but the Spirit of God is with us in the groaning, and God is uber-faithful, and nobody will ever be able to take us away from his love for us in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:25:19\]](#transcript-00-25-19-381) Then God's going to save all his people from Jews and Gentiles alike.

[\[00:25:23\]](#transcript-00-25-23-382) And then Paul says, I appeal to you, therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God.

[\[00:25:30\]](#transcript-00-25-30-383) Right?

[\[00:25:30\]](#transcript-00-25-30-384) So, on the basis of all that, Romans 12 and following, here's how we're to live together in the church.

[\[00:25:36\]](#transcript-00-25-36-385) And then, even to the last thing I want to say right now, and to bring the law back in, it's very clear that the moral law of God, i.e., the Ten Commandments, is what Paul is basing his understanding

[\[00:25:48\]](#transcript-00-25-48-386) of righteousness on, and even how we should live.

[\[00:25:51\]](#transcript-00-25-51-387) Because in Romans 13, 8 to 10, he cites several of the Ten Commandments, and then he basically draws the conclusion: to love one another is to fulfill the law, to love one another is to keep the law.

[\[00:26:02\]](#transcript-00-26-02-388) So he exhorts us in those ways.

[\[00:26:04\]](#transcript-00-26-04-389) And then he tells the weak and the strong to bear with each other and not cast shade and not cast judgment, right?

[\[00:26:09\]](#transcript-00-26-09-390) And he emphasizes the unity that should exist in the church.

[\[00:26:12\]](#transcript-00-26-12-391) And then he, like you said, at the end of Romans and the end of 15 and 16, he goes back to Jesus and how God is going to bring about faith in his people and stuff.

[\[00:26:24\]](#transcript-00-26-24-392) I mean, it's beautiful the way the apostles write.

[\[00:26:26\]](#transcript-00-26-26-393) We could geek on that for a long time.

[\[00:26:27\]](#transcript-00-26-27-394) But yeah, so you know, part of the good news of the gospel is God's unconditional favor and love towards us.

[\[00:26:32\]](#transcript-00-26-32-395) Now, unconditioning means that before you were saved and after you're saved, there's nothing you can do that, will either gain his love or lose his love, right?

[\[00:26:40\]](#transcript-00-26-40-396) You know, Romans 8: nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:26:44\]](#transcript-00-26-44-397) What I love about this, Justin, is when we are lawbreakers, what does God use to bring us back to himself?

[\[00:26:50\]](#transcript-00-26-50-398) I love how Hebrews says this.

[\[00:26:52\]](#transcript-00-26-52-399) It's his love.

[\[00:26:54\]](#transcript-00-26-54-400) It's the gospel that brings us back.

[\[00:26:56\]](#transcript-00-26-56-401) It says he disciplines those whom he loves.

[\[00:26:58\]](#transcript-00-26-58-402) That's gospel, right?

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-403) So gospel motivates us, and gospel repents us.

[\[00:27:02\]](#transcript-00-27-02-404) Dude, it's so good.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-405) Say it, say it again for the people in the back.

[\[00:27:06\]](#transcript-00-27-06-406) Like the love of God, the gospel is what produces repentance in the believer.

[\[00:27:12\]](#transcript-00-27-12-407) Yeah.

[\[00:27:12\]](#transcript-00-27-12-408) I mean, again, the law is involved, of course, because we understand how do we know what sin is?

[\[00:27:17\]](#transcript-00-27-17-409) Well, because we know the law, but when we sin, what is it that restores us?

[\[00:27:23\]](#transcript-00-27-23-410) What is it that brings us back?

[\[00:27:25\]](#transcript-00-27-25-411) It is God's love and mercy and grace in Christ.

[\[00:27:28\]](#transcript-00-27-28-412) I mean, I'll give you an example, Justin.

[\[00:27:29\]](#transcript-00-27-29-413) I'll give you another example.

[\[00:27:31\]](#transcript-00-27-31-414) In Hebrews 4, when we know we failed the law, because it says, in time of need, with boldness, run into my presence and ask me for mercy and grace, and it will be granted.

[\[00:27:44\]](#transcript-00-27-44-415) Why would we do that?

[\[00:27:45\]](#transcript-00-27-45-416) That's the good news of the gospel: unconditional mercy and grace, always forever.

[\[00:27:51\]](#transcript-00-27-51-417) What was that in light of?

[\[00:27:52\]](#transcript-00-27-52-418) That was in light of law-breaking, right?

[\[00:27:55\]](#transcript-00-27-55-419) So we broke the law, we did not love God, we did not love neighbor, we lusted, we failed, whatever it is that you want to say.

[\[00:28:01\]](#transcript-00-28-01-420) And what does he motivate us with?

[\[00:28:04\]](#transcript-00-28-04-421) The gospel.

[\[00:28:05\]](#transcript-00-28-05-422) I mean, those are, can we keep going?

[\[00:28:07\]](#transcript-00-28-07-423) You know, Romans 12, laying aside the weight and the sin that easily sets us.

[\[00:28:12\]](#transcript-00-28-12-424) Totally.

[\[00:28:12\]](#transcript-00-28-12-425) Or sorry, Hebrews 12.

[\[00:28:13\]](#transcript-00-28-13-426) Yeah.

[\[00:28:13\]](#transcript-00-28-13-427) Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, right?

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-428) He who began a good work in us will complete it.

[\[00:28:20\]](#transcript-00-28-20-429) These are all motivating passages to show us the powerlessness of the law and the power of the gospel.

[\[00:28:26\]](#transcript-00-28-26-430) No, amen.

[\[00:28:27\]](#transcript-00-28-27-431) I love that Hebrews 12 piece, too, because that's what launches the writer into the words about discipline.

[\[00:28:34\]](#transcript-00-28-34-432) Like, we're looking at Christ

[\[00:28:36\]](#transcript-00-28-36-433) and bearing up under the discipline of a loving heavenly Father who desires that we share in His holiness.

[\[00:28:41\]](#transcript-00-28-41-434) That's beautiful.

[\[00:28:42\]](#transcript-00-28-42-435) I mean, but then, yeah, I mean, you were talking about You talked about Romans, you talked about several different places.

[\[00:28:49\]](#transcript-00-28-49-436) And I was thinking about Philippians, even.

[\[00:28:51\]](#transcript-00-28-51-437) You know how Philippians 1 begins, and like he who began a good work and you will complete it.

[\[00:28:56\]](#transcript-00-28-56-438) And then we have the example of Christ in Philippians chapter 2.

[\[00:29:00\]](#transcript-00-29-00-439) And then, even those words in verses 12 and 13 of Philippians 2, that we're to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, because it is God who wills and works in us, or God who works in us,

[\[00:29:11\]](#transcript-00-29-11-440) both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

[\[00:29:13\]](#transcript-00-29-13-441) So, of our, all of our working, everything we do in the Christian life is fueled by the work of God, by the power of God at work in us.

[\[00:29:23\]](#transcript-00-29-23-442) And then, Paul in Philippians 3 goes back to say, to write the same things to you again is of no trouble for me and it's safe for you.

[\[00:29:34\]](#transcript-00-29-34-443) And then what does he write in Philippians 3:1 to 11?

[\[00:29:37\]](#transcript-00-29-37-444) He writes about, don't pay any attention to the circumcision party, like to those who are telling you that you need works.

[\[00:29:44\]](#transcript-00-29-44-445) And then he in order to be justified, and then he talks about how he has more reason to boast than anybody.

[\[00:29:49\]](#transcript-00-29-49-446) And then he doesn't renounce his vice, he renounces his virtue, he renounces all the good things about himself, quote-unquote, good things about himself.

[\[00:29:58\]](#transcript-00-29-58-447) Why?

[\[00:29:59\]](#transcript-00-29-59-448) And he counts them as nothing, as rubbish, right?

[\[00:30:01\]](#transcript-00-30-01-449) So that he might have what?

[\[00:30:03\]](#transcript-00-30-03-450) The righteousness of Christ that we receive by faith.

[\[00:30:06\]](#transcript-00-30-06-451) Yeah.

[\[00:30:07\]](#transcript-00-30-07-452) And but yeah, and he, but he's been guiding people.

[\[00:30:10\]](#transcript-00-30-10-453) I mean, he's already encouraged through the example of Jesus has encouraged humility and love for one another.

[\[00:30:15\]](#transcript-00-30-15-454) But how does he even encourage humility and love?

[\[00:30:17\]](#transcript-00-30-17-455) He holds Christ out.

[\[00:30:19\]](#transcript-00-30-19-456) And look at what Christ has accomplished for you.

[\[00:30:23\]](#transcript-00-30-23-457) And now consider him and love each other.

[\[00:30:25\]](#transcript-00-30-25-458) You know?

[\[00:30:25\]](#transcript-00-30-25-459) Well, the gospel, if you'll notice, the gospel always comes first as power and motivation.

[\[00:30:31\]](#transcript-00-30-31-460) And then obedience is the fruit of it.

[\[00:30:32\]](#transcript-00-30-32-461) I'll give you an example.

[\[00:30:33\]](#transcript-00-30-33-462) Jesus says, Come to me, all you are heavy laden and burdened by the law, and I will give you rest from that.

[\[00:30:39\]](#transcript-00-30-39-463) Then he says, My yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

[\[00:30:42\]](#transcript-00-30-42-464) In light of my love, the work I have for you is much lighter than if you try to do it by the flesh and the law.

[\[00:30:49\]](#transcript-00-30-49-465) Right?

[\[00:30:50\]](#transcript-00-30-50-466) Like, forget that.

[\[00:30:52\]](#transcript-00-30-52-467) Or First John is like, why do we love?

[\[00:30:56\]](#transcript-00-30-56-468) Well, it's not the law.

[\[00:30:58\]](#transcript-00-30-58-469) We love because he first loved us, right?

[\[00:31:01\]](#transcript-00-31-01-470) He first loved us.

[\[00:31:03\]](#transcript-00-31-03-471) And there's so many examples of this: like when Jesus says that the greatest joy that we can have is by laying our life down.

[\[00:31:13\]](#transcript-00-31-13-472) Why?

[\[00:31:13\]](#transcript-00-31-13-473) Because the Son laid his life down for us.

[\[00:31:16\]](#transcript-00-31-16-474) You know, it's like, how many times is the gospel just washed over us and saying, trust me, walk by faith, and don't look to the law to give you the strength to do this.

[\[00:31:26\]](#transcript-00-31-26-475) Look to the law to give you the guidance to do this.

[\[00:31:28\]](#transcript-00-31-28-476) But first, child, always, always, always look to me.

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-477) My love, my forgiveness, my strength, my grace, my mercy.

[\[00:31:36\]](#transcript-00-31-36-478) So, Justin, no, I don't think you can preach enough love and grace and mercy to the believer because it's the only power source that they have to actually obey.

[\[00:31:45\]](#transcript-00-31-45-479) And if you want your congregation, if you think you have a lethargic congregation, you think you have a congregation that is, you know, lukewarm, preaching the law to them will not, I mean, sure, tell them, hey, look, you

[\[00:31:57\]](#transcript-00-31-57-480) guys know you failed, right?

[\[00:31:59\]](#transcript-00-31-59-481) Yeah, I know I failed.

[\[00:32:00\]](#transcript-00-32-00-482) You're okay.

[\[00:32:02\]](#transcript-00-32-02-483) Then give Jesus.

[\[00:32:04\]](#transcript-00-32-04-484) Yeah, I mean, right, unabashedly give it to them.

[\[00:32:07\]](#transcript-00-32-07-485) Yeah, get, I mean, if you've got, if you've got people that you think, I know I've said this before, but if you have people that you think are unregenerate or you think are fakers or nominal or whatever, you

[\[00:32:16\]](#transcript-00-32-16-486) want to fill in the blank, yeah.

[\[00:32:18\]](#transcript-00-32-18-487) My Lord, I mean, preach the law and its first use and then preach Jesus.

[\[00:32:22\]](#transcript-00-32-22-488) That's the answer.

[\[00:32:23\]](#transcript-00-32-23-489) It's not to tell dead people to try harder.

[\[00:32:25\]](#transcript-00-32-25-490) I mean, that just doesn't do anything.

[\[00:32:27\]](#transcript-00-32-27-491) I love how you mentioned a number of different passages.

[\[00:32:32\]](#transcript-00-32-32-492) I mean, John 13, 34, 35 comes to mind.

[\[00:32:34\]](#transcript-00-32-34-493) The whole letter of 1 John comes to mind, where we're encouraged.

[\[00:32:37\]](#transcript-00-32-37-494) I mean, the exhortation from Jesus and from the apostle is what?

[\[00:32:41\]](#transcript-00-32-41-495) Love one another.

[\[00:32:42\]](#transcript-00-32-42-496) I mean, that is what is repeatedly stated and will even be known by the ways that we love each other in the church.

[\[00:32:48\]](#transcript-00-32-48-497) But what is the driver and the motivator and the power unto that love.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-498) It is Christ for us.

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-499) And so we're preaching the gospel so that, like, if we want to see real love in the church for one another amongst the saints, then preach Christ, preach the love of Christ.

[\[00:33:06\]](#transcript-00-33-06-500) abide in my love.

[\[00:33:07\]](#transcript-00-33-07-501) Yes.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-502) And then we and then we will see these things manifest themselves.

[\[00:33:14\]](#transcript-00-33-14-503) It is not the law itself that does that, it is the preaching of the love and the grace and the mercy and the power of Jesus that does that.

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-504) And here's even an observation.

[\[00:33:26\]](#transcript-00-33-26-505) Yeah, lost observation for me.

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-506) I know we're coming down to the end here, but even in the Old Testament, when the law was given, the sacrificial system was given because of the weakness of the law, right?

[\[00:33:36\]](#transcript-00-33-36-507) The law was there to guide them and direct them and prepare them for the Messiah.

[\[00:33:40\]](#transcript-00-33-40-508) But in the weakness of the law, what did the law provide?

[\[00:33:43\]](#transcript-00-33-43-509) It provided a sacrifice, which pointed us to the lamb, right?

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-510) The final sacrifice.

[\[00:33:48\]](#transcript-00-33-48-511) So, even when the law was originally given, which was not given to save, it was given to govern, but it was also given, as Paul says, to expose them to their nature.

[\[00:33:57\]](#transcript-00-33-57-512) Right, it was given for redemptive purposes, i.e., to drive us to Christ.

[\[00:34:02\]](#transcript-00-34-02-513) Right.

[\[00:34:02\]](#transcript-00-34-02-514) And so Christ becomes the once-for-all final sacrifice to the defeat the law.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-515) In essence, it's like he becomes for us righteousness.

[\[00:34:11\]](#transcript-00-34-11-516) So the whole story from beginning to end, I mean, I'll just, I've mentioned this before, I'll mention it again.

[\[00:34:16\]](#transcript-00-34-16-517) Genesis 3:15, there's no law at all in the first mention of the gospel because there's nothing for you to do.

[\[00:34:24\]](#transcript-00-34-24-518) What does he say?

[\[00:34:24\]](#transcript-00-34-24-519) I will make this right through the seed of Eve, and he will be the head crusher, and he will be bruised.

[\[00:34:31\]](#transcript-00-34-31-520) And then you're going, Well, who's this Messiah?

[\[00:34:33\]](#transcript-00-34-33-521) And from that moment forward, you're looking for what God does to save sinners.

[\[00:34:38\]](#transcript-00-34-38-522) And it's important, the law comes later to help us understand how much we really have failed him.

[\[00:34:46\]](#transcript-00-34-46-523) And the law then comes to guide us so that we don't fall back into the fleshly desires that we've had in the past once we've been saved by Christ.

[\[00:34:54\]](#transcript-00-34-54-524) No, amen.

[\[00:34:56\]](#transcript-00-34-56-525) I agree completely.

[\[00:34:57\]](#transcript-00-34-57-526) I don't know that I have anything to add, Jon.

[\[00:34:59\]](#transcript-00-34-59-527) I mean, there you go.

[\[00:35:00\]](#transcript-00-35-00-528) We could riff for a long time about these things, but I think maybe to put a bow on it, at least from my end, some summarizing thoughts, right?

[\[00:35:09\]](#transcript-00-35-09-529) The law is good, the law is holy, the law is righteous, the law is wise.

[\[00:35:12\]](#transcript-00-35-12-530) By all means, preach the law.

[\[00:35:14\]](#transcript-00-35-14-531) But use it the right way and use it, preach it, and apply it at a spiritual level so that everybody in, I mean, I'm not just talking two preachers here, but this is how we should communicate the law,

[\[00:35:27\]](#transcript-00-35-27-532) certainly in preaching, so that everybody in a gathering on a Sunday morning understands, I cannot and have not met this standard.

[\[00:35:35\]](#transcript-00-35-35-533) And so I have no hope in myself.

[\[00:35:38\]](#transcript-00-35-38-534) I am despairing of my own righteousness.

[\[00:35:40\]](#transcript-00-35-40-535) That is a good place to be.

[\[00:35:42\]](#transcript-00-35-42-536) And we need to be reminded of that week over week because we tend to get this twisted.

[\[00:35:46\]](#transcript-00-35-46-537) Because you listen to a lot of people talk, and it sounds like we're at least in part going to be with God forever because of our discipline and our virtue.

[\[00:35:54\]](#transcript-00-35-54-538) And that is not true.

[\[00:35:56\]](#transcript-00-35-56-539) We will be with God forever because of what Christ alone has accomplished in our place.

[\[00:36:00\]](#transcript-00-36-00-540) So that's important.

[\[00:36:00\]](#transcript-00-36-00-541) We use the law that way to remind us all that we have no merit, no righteousness in which we could stand on our own steam.

[\[00:36:09\]](#transcript-00-36-09-542) But then, along with that, we use the law as the good and perfect guide for our living, but we don't preach it in a threatening way, we don't preach it in a condemnatory way to the believer.

[\[00:36:20\]](#transcript-00-36-20-543) We help the believer see, man, look how good this is.

[\[00:36:23\]](#transcript-00-36-23-544) I mean, Jesus has saved us and he is our righteousness and he's atoned for our sins.

[\[00:36:27\]](#transcript-00-36-27-545) And then look at how good the law of God is.

[\[00:36:29\]](#transcript-00-36-29-546) You delight in it.

[\[00:36:30\]](#transcript-00-36-30-547) I know you do because you're born again, and so why don't we live like this?

[\[00:36:33\]](#transcript-00-36-33-548) Let's put that Hebrews 12, let's set aside the sin that so easily entangles us.

[\[00:36:38\]](#transcript-00-36-38-549) Let's look to Christ, let's pursue love, let's pursue humility, right?

[\[00:36:42\]](#transcript-00-36-42-550) Let's pursue service to one another.

[\[00:36:44\]](#transcript-00-36-44-551) These things are clearly good for us.

[\[00:36:46\]](#transcript-00-36-46-552) They're good for our neighbor.

[\[00:36:49\]](#transcript-00-36-49-553) They honor the Lord, right?

[\[00:36:50\]](#transcript-00-36-50-554) This is how we talk.

[\[00:36:51\]](#transcript-00-36-51-555) This is how we preach.

[\[00:36:53\]](#transcript-00-36-53-556) And even when we warn, this is important to me.

[\[00:36:57\]](#transcript-00-36-57-557) Even when we warn, which we should, because the apostles warn believers throughout the New Testament, we don't ever call a believer's salvation into question in the way that we do this.

[\[00:37:07\]](#transcript-00-37-07-558) It's like the 1 Corinthians 6 paradigm is the best illustration of it, where it's a pretty bad situation in the church in Corinth.

[\[00:37:14\]](#transcript-00-37-14-559) And Paul's been writing about that.

[\[00:37:16\]](#transcript-00-37-16-560) In chapter 6, verses 9 to 11, though, he says, I've told you before that people who do these things, and he lists a bunch of things, they're not going to inherit the kingdom of God.

[\[00:37:26\]](#transcript-00-37-26-561) That's strong.

[\[00:37:27\]](#transcript-00-37-27-562) But then he doesn't say, and

[\[00:37:31\]](#transcript-00-37-31-563) And a lot of you are probably headed that direction straight to hell.

[\[00:37:34\]](#transcript-00-37-34-564) He doesn't say that.

[\[00:37:35\]](#transcript-00-37-35-565) He says, Such were some of you.

[\[00:37:38\]](#transcript-00-37-38-566) You used to be that.

[\[00:37:39\]](#transcript-00-37-39-567) You're not that anymore.

[\[00:37:40\]](#transcript-00-37-40-568) And so, this is where that union with Christ and the believer's identity has to be preached as well.

[\[00:37:45\]](#transcript-00-37-45-569) Live like who you are now.

[\[00:37:47\]](#transcript-00-37-47-570) So, this is all in the realm of rightly preaching law and gospel and of using the law lawfully rather than using the law to bludgeon and unsettle the saints all the time.

[\[00:37:58\]](#transcript-00-37-58-571) It's just not the best way to do it.

[\[00:38:01\]](#transcript-00-38-01-572) Christianity is the only religion that says you are both saved and securely sanctified, growing in your faith by Christ alone, by a power outside of yourself.

[\[00:38:12\]](#transcript-00-38-12-573) All other religions will point you to yourself or the law and/or some kind of a law.

[\[00:38:18\]](#transcript-00-38-18-574) So, this is why Paul's like, in light of in Romans and in Corinth, where there are all these other gods and all these other religions, he goes, In light of that, I'm not ashamed of the religion that I

[\[00:38:28\]](#transcript-00-38-28-575) have embraced because it is the power of God.

[\[00:38:30\]](#transcript-00-38-30-576) And I'm not going to be ashamed of that.

[\[00:38:32\]](#transcript-00-38-32-577) Last comment for real, for real, here.

[\[00:38:35\]](#transcript-00-38-35-578) You're exactly right.

[\[00:38:37\]](#transcript-00-38-37-579) Like, Christianity is the only religion that points us to a savior who's done it for us.

[\[00:38:42\]](#transcript-00-38-42-580) Amen.

[\[00:38:43\]](#transcript-00-38-43-581) And the thing, every other religion, like you said, points us in on ourselves.

[\[00:38:47\]](#transcript-00-38-47-582) And here's the real bondage of that whole thing.

[\[00:38:50\]](#transcript-00-38-50-583) We're pointed in on ourselves.

[\[00:38:52\]](#transcript-00-38-52-584) Do this, do this, do this, don't do that, and maybe your God will be merciful.

[\[00:38:58\]](#transcript-00-38-58-585) That's every other world religion.

[\[00:39:01\]](#transcript-00-39-01-586) Amen.

[\[00:39:02\]](#transcript-00-39-02-587) That's not ours, right?

[\[00:39:04\]](#transcript-00-39-04-588) Because we know that we have peace with God.

[\[00:39:08\]](#transcript-00-39-08-589) And that's why we continue to preach the gospel so that that peace and that rest and that security and that love would take more root in our hearts and minds as we even consider standing before the Lord at

[\[00:39:19\]](#transcript-00-39-19-590) the end of it all.

[\[00:39:20\]](#transcript-00-39-20-591) Amen.

[\[00:39:21\]](#transcript-00-39-21-592) Well, this is encouraging.

[\[00:39:23\]](#transcript-00-39-23-593) Do us a favor and leave us a review, give us a thumbs up, share it with someone who needs to be encouraged.

[\[00:39:29\]](#transcript-00-39-29-594) We also have a little book that you can use to share, like a little tract called Rest, Consideration of Faith versus Faithfulness, which is really what this is at the heart at.

[\[00:39:36\]](#transcript-00-39-36-595) You can go buy a bunch of copies on our website or on the website or on Amazon and hand them out.

[\[00:39:40\]](#transcript-00-39-40-596) Just a great way to continue to get this message out there.

[\[00:39:43\]](#transcript-00-39-43-597) More people in our world need to find rest in the sufficiency of Christ.

[\[00:39:47\]](#transcript-00-39-47-598) Hopefully you found that today.

[\[00:39:48\]](#transcript-00-39-48-599) Thank you for listening.

[\[00:39:49\]](#transcript-00-39-49-600) We'll see you, Lord willing, around the king's throne.

[\[00:39:52\]](#transcript-00-39-52-601) But if not, we'll have another podcast for you next week.

[\[00:39:54\]](#transcript-00-39-54-602) Hey, everyone.

[\[00:39:55\]](#transcript-00-39-55-603) Before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you.

[\[00:39:58\]](#transcript-00-39-58-604) And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it.

[\[00:40:02\]](#transcript-00-40-02-605) But we also need your support.

[\[00:40:03\]](#transcript-00-40-03-606) And it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

[\[00:40:08\]](#transcript-00-40-08-607) So the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.

---

### What Does America Need?

*Published: July 10, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-does-america-need*
*Tags: America, American Politics, Culture, Engaging culture*

People often criticize us here at Theocast, saying that we are not concerned about society, the culture in which we live, or even the country of which we are citizens. So today, Jon and Justin are going to address that. We're going to discuss the gospel and what the Lord is doing in building His church. How do all of these things affect our perspectives on society, culture, and the countries in which we live? We hope that this is encouraging and clarifying for you.

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https://youtu.be/wsPb5XkKbmY

---

### Psalm 1 Is NOT About You

*Published: July 3, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/psalm-1-is-not-about-you*
*Tags: law gospel distinction, Psalms*

One of the most famous Psalms that nearly everyone reads is Psalm 1\. Jon and Justin want to highlight the distinction between the law and the gospel in Psalm 1, showing that it is not about how God blesses those who obey Him. Psalm 1 is not about you! You don't appear until Psalm 2, and that is where the gospel is!

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https://youtu.be/QAnQE-J-Kvw

---

### Missing the Gospel in John 3

*Published: June 26, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/missing-the-gospel-in-john-3*
*Tags: Christ in the Old Testament, Gospel, Old Testament*

In listening to a lot of preaching today, it's clear that it's possible to talk about the gospel or even about the work of God without actually getting around to preaching the gospel itself—preaching Jesus Christ for sinners. This can happen with any number of passages, but today Jon and Justin are going to have a conversation about a well-known text: the interchange between Jesus and Nicodemus from John chapter three. There's a lot of truly epic content in this passage, including the sovereign grace of God, the work of God, and regeneration in the new birth. Unfortunately, the gospel message within this passage—the Son of Man being lifted up for us—is often not talked about enough. We hope this discussion is encouraging and clarifying for you.

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https://youtu.be/9bTHySpu2\_o

---

### The Old Testament Preaches the Gospel

*Published: June 19, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-old-testament-preaches-the-gospel*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: Christ in the Old Testament, Gospel, Old Testament*

Many Christians struggle with reading and understanding the Old Testament. They know it's supposed to be about Jesus, and they've read the New Testament, but they're just disconnected from the Old. Today's podcast is our attempt to give you reasons why you should read your Old Testament. By doing so, you will see the wonder and glory it defines for us, which leads us to Christ and His grace.

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https://youtu.be/JtUx7b2BzMU 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:00\]](#transcript-00-00-00-1) There is a famous movie, and everyone pretty much knows the end of the movie.

[\[00:00:04\]](#transcript-00-00-04-2) It's Braveheart, where he yells freedom.

[\[00:00:07\]](#transcript-00-00-07-3) I've seen it probably a hundred times.

[\[00:00:08\]](#transcript-00-00-08-4) But you know one thing I've never seen?

[\[00:00:10\]](#transcript-00-00-10-5) I've actually never seen the movie, which that movie doesn't have that much of a draw for me because I just don't really know the story behind it.

[\[00:00:17\]](#transcript-00-00-17-6) And that's how most people read their Old Testament.

[\[00:00:20\]](#transcript-00-00-20-7) They know it's supposed to be about Jesus and they've read the new, but they're just disconnected from the old.

[\[00:00:26\]](#transcript-00-00-26-8) And today's podcast is our attempt to give you the reasons of why you should read your Old Testament.

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-9) And in doing so, see the wonder and glory as it defines for us grace and leads us to Christ.

[\[00:00:39\]](#transcript-00-00-39-10) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:39\]](#transcript-00-00-39-11) If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

[\[00:00:42\]](#transcript-00-00-42-12) It's called pietism.

[\[00:00:44\]](#transcript-00-00-44-13) Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy?

[\[00:00:49\]](#transcript-00-00-49-14) That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:00:56\]](#transcript-00-00-56-15) It's dread versus joy, really.

[\[00:00:58\]](#transcript-00-00-58-16) That's pietism.

[\[00:00:59\]](#transcript-00-00-59-17) Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

[\[00:01:07\]](#transcript-00-01-07-18) And we have a little book for you.

[\[00:01:09\]](#transcript-00-01-09-19) It's free.

[\[00:01:09\]](#transcript-00-01-09-20) We want you to download it, and we're going to explain the difference between Pietism and what we call confessionalism, Reform theology, really, how it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ.

[\[00:01:20\]](#transcript-00-01-20-21) And when Jesus says, Come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

[\[00:01:25\]](#transcript-00-01-25-22) You can download it at our website.

[\[00:01:26\]](#transcript-00-01-26-23) Just go to theocast.org.

[\[00:01:37\]](#transcript-00-01-37-24) Welcome to Theocast, Encouraging Weary Pilgrims to Rest in Christ.

[\[00:01:42\]](#transcript-00-01-42-25) Conversations about the Christian life from a reformed pastoral confessional perspective, we'll throw in some law gospel, covenant theology, supernatural, and humor.

[\[00:01:52\]](#transcript-00-01-52-26) Whatever we feel like today.

[\[00:01:56\]](#transcript-00-01-56-27) Your hosts today are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:02:01\]](#transcript-00-02-01-28) And I'm Jon Moffitt, I'm the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:02:06\]](#transcript-00-02-06-29) Justin, this is our second recording for the day.

[\[00:02:09\]](#transcript-00-02-09-30) For those that don't know, we try and double up to give ourselves some time in between our recordings.

[\[00:02:14\]](#transcript-00-02-14-31) So I'm going to let you talk because I need to cough for a second.

[\[00:02:18\]](#transcript-00-02-18-32) So say hello to the folks.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-33) What's up, fam?

[\[00:02:21\]](#transcript-00-02-21-34) Good to be with you again, yeah.

[\[00:02:24\]](#transcript-00-02-24-35) We record usually every other Wednesday, just kind of pulling the curtain back here.

[\[00:02:28\]](#transcript-00-02-28-36) And so, this is our second one today.

[\[00:02:30\]](#transcript-00-02-30-37) It's been away for day one.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-38) So, yeah, we've always recorded on Wednesdays.

[\[00:02:33\]](#transcript-00-02-33-39) We've always recorded on Wednesdays.

[\[00:02:34\]](#transcript-00-02-34-40) We started doing this every other week thing, I don't know how long it's been, but it works because it allows us to get other pastoral work done, things like that.

[\[00:02:44\]](#transcript-00-02-44-41) So, people aren't tuning in to know those things, though they do care about us and we're grateful.

[\[00:02:49\]](#transcript-00-02-49-42) As you also know, Jon and I are pastors, so we're preaching on Sunday mornings.

[\[00:02:53\]](#transcript-00-02-53-43) And a lot of times, the conversations that we have on here are birthed out of things that are on our minds and hearts as a result of what we're preaching.

[\[00:03:02\]](#transcript-00-03-02-44) So last week, Jon has been in 1 Peter.

[\[00:03:05\]](#transcript-00-03-05-45) And so last week we were talking about deliverance from Satan, effectively, the deliverance from the kingdom of darkness.

[\[00:03:12\]](#transcript-00-03-12-46) Not deliverance ministries.

[\[00:03:14\]](#transcript-00-03-14-47) Yeah.

[\[00:03:15\]](#transcript-00-03-15-48) And not deliverance like Appalachia craziness either, but deliverance from the kingdom of darkness and from bondage to Satan.

[\[00:03:23\]](#transcript-00-03-23-49) So if you haven't listened to that episode, go back and check it out.

[\[00:03:26\]](#transcript-00-03-26-50) This week, we're pivoting to the Old Testament.

[\[00:03:28\]](#transcript-00-03-28-51) So I'm preaching Exodus and I'm in the early chapters.

[\[00:03:32\]](#transcript-00-03-32-52) And Jon and I were talking before we hit record today about things.

[\[00:03:36\]](#transcript-00-03-36-53) And wouldn't you know it that the gospel being preached and defined by the Old Testament came up.

[\[00:03:43\]](#transcript-00-03-43-54) And so that's effectively our conversation today.

[\[00:03:45\]](#transcript-00-03-45-55) But let me tee it up this way: there are a lot of ways that many of us have been taught to read the Old Testament that are less than helpful.

[\[00:03:53\]](#transcript-00-03-53-56) So if you're out there and you're newer to redemptive historical reformed Christianity, great.

[\[00:04:00\]](#transcript-00-04-00-57) Or maybe you've been in it for a while.

[\[00:04:02\]](#transcript-00-04-02-58) I still trust this is going to resonate with you.

[\[00:04:04\]](#transcript-00-04-04-59) For many of us, we're honestly growing up or cutting our teeth reading the Bible, the Old Testament was kind of scary.

[\[00:04:09\]](#transcript-00-04-09-60) Like, we didn't know what to do with it.

[\[00:04:11\]](#transcript-00-04-11-61) It's kind of seems like a wasteland.

[\[00:04:13\]](#transcript-00-04-13-62) Like, maybe there's an occasional oasis here or there, there's a promise, there's a prophecy about the Messiah.

[\[00:04:19\]](#transcript-00-04-19-63) There's some grace over there, but generally, the Old Testament is hard.

[\[00:04:24\]](#transcript-00-04-24-64) It's law, it's scary, it's fire, and brimstone, and judgment, and frightening.

[\[00:04:30\]](#transcript-00-04-30-65) Can we say weird.

[\[00:04:31\]](#transcript-00-04-31-66) Or weird.

[\[00:04:33\]](#transcript-00-04-33-67) All right, that's one weird stuff in the book.

[\[00:04:36\]](#transcript-00-04-36-68) Sure.

[\[00:04:36\]](#transcript-00-04-36-69) You know, and like you get, you guys have heard, you know, God was different back then.

[\[00:04:40\]](#transcript-00-04-40-70) He was harsh.

[\[00:04:41\]](#transcript-00-04-41-71) It was all wrath and judgment.

[\[00:04:42\]](#transcript-00-04-42-72) He flooded the world.

[\[00:04:44\]](#transcript-00-04-44-73) Yeah.

[\[00:04:44\]](#transcript-00-04-44-74) Or another way that many of us have been taught to read the Old Testament is with a law-centered mentality.

[\[00:04:51\]](#transcript-00-04-51-75) This is where we go through and we mine every text for what we're supposed to be doing.

[\[00:04:57\]](#transcript-00-04-57-76) Like, I need to know my instructions.

[\[00:05:00\]](#transcript-00-05-00-77) What am I supposed to be doing?

[\[00:05:01\]](#transcript-00-05-01-78) And we're going to the text with that in mind.

[\[00:05:03\]](#transcript-00-05-03-79) And oftentimes, because so much of the Old Testament is narrative or poetry or just God's commentary on the history, i.e., the prophets, we're going to introduce and create laws where there aren't any.

[\[00:05:16\]](#transcript-00-05-16-80) Kind of a thing we do.

[\[00:05:17\]](#transcript-00-05-17-81) Another way that we misread the Old Testament, this one is very common.

[\[00:05:21\]](#transcript-00-05-21-82) This one is what I like to call the flannel board approach.

[\[00:05:24\]](#transcript-00-05-24-83) This is where we moralize the Old Testament.

[\[00:05:26\]](#transcript-00-05-26-84) So, this is following around the Old Testament saints, and we're trying to figure out how to be like them, you know, how to dare to be a Daniel, or how can we be like David, or whatever.

[\[00:05:35\]](#transcript-00-05-35-85) And we tend to heroize all the characters in the Old Testament.

[\[00:05:39\]](#transcript-00-05-39-86) We don't really talk about their sin and their failure, their weakness, though they are just like us.

[\[00:05:45\]](#transcript-00-05-45-87) And we turn the Old Testament into a collection of moral tales or like Aesop's fables, kind of thing.

[\[00:05:52\]](#transcript-00-05-52-88) And it's just not helpful.

[\[00:05:54\]](#transcript-00-05-54-89) So, those are just a few of the ways that we've been taught to approach the Old Testament that does not do us any service.

[\[00:06:00\]](#transcript-00-06-00-90) There is a much better way to read the Old Testament, and it is the way that the apostles and Jesus Himself understood it.

[\[00:06:09\]](#transcript-00-06-09-91) And it is a testimony about God's plan of redemption that is accomplished through Jesus Christ.

[\[00:06:16\]](#transcript-00-06-16-92) And so we're going to be talking from Exodus a little bit today and inevitably from other places in the Old Testament.

[\[00:06:21\]](#transcript-00-06-21-93) But John, I'm going to tee us up with what we both agree: Genesis 3:15.

[\[00:06:27\]](#transcript-00-06-27-94) Yeah, that occurs obviously very early in a very large book.

[\[00:06:33\]](#transcript-00-06-33-95) So, not even, I mean, just two, three pages into a massive book, we get this promise, this pronouncement from God to Adam and Eve.

[\[00:06:44\]](#transcript-00-06-44-96) They have sinned.

[\[00:06:46\]](#transcript-00-06-46-97) The devil has deceived them.

[\[00:06:48\]](#transcript-00-06-48-98) They have sinned.

[\[00:06:49\]](#transcript-00-06-49-99) They have broken God's covenant.

[\[00:06:50\]](#transcript-00-06-50-100) And God pronounces what He's going to do.

[\[00:06:54\]](#transcript-00-06-54-101) He says to the serpent, I'm going to put enmity between you and the woman, between her offspring and your offspring.

[\[00:07:01\]](#transcript-00-07-01-102) You will bruise his heel, and he will bruise your head.

[\[00:07:05\]](#transcript-00-07-05-103) And we understand that to be God's pronouncement, the promise of a Redeemer who is going to come and right all these wrongs and save the human race.

[\[00:07:14\]](#transcript-00-07-14-104) And we obviously understand this is a prophecy and a pronouncement about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[\[00:07:20\]](#transcript-00-07-20-105) And so, of course, Jon, wouldn't you think that if that is stated by God in Genesis 3:15, that the rest of the big book that's called the Bible is about that promise and it's about the accomplishment of it.

[\[00:07:33\]](#transcript-00-07-33-106) Wouldn't you think that?

[\[00:07:35\]](#transcript-00-07-35-107) Yeah.

[\[00:07:35\]](#transcript-00-07-35-108) Yeah.

[\[00:07:36\]](#transcript-00-07-36-109) As you were saying this, I had something come to mind.

[\[00:07:38\]](#transcript-00-07-38-110) I've been listening and engaging to people that I don't agree with because it helps me.

[\[00:07:43\]](#transcript-00-07-43-111) I might be wrong.

[\[00:07:44\]](#transcript-00-07-44-112) Yeah, I might be wrong.

[\[00:07:45\]](#transcript-00-07-45-113) As a matter of fact, I was wrong for many years.

[\[00:07:47\]](#transcript-00-07-47-114) That's why I ended up where I am today.

[\[00:07:49\]](#transcript-00-07-49-115) You know, I started to rethink, I was a dispensationalist rethinking covenant theology, and I'm like, wow, there's a lot of points here I can't argue with.

[\[00:07:56\]](#transcript-00-07-56-116) So, as you were saying this, Justin, I think about my brothers in the dispensational world who will say things like, well, there's no such thing as the covenant of grace, because no, it doesn't even say that.

[\[00:08:12\]](#transcript-00-08-12-117) And so, how can you say that there's like this overarching covenant because the Bible never really defines it?

[\[00:08:16\]](#transcript-00-08-16-118) I said, Well, all right, let me give you an example.

[\[00:08:18\]](#transcript-00-08-18-119) Genesis 3:15, it does something, it does something to the reader, and it's very important to understand this because this is going to flow into Exodus.

[\[00:08:26\]](#transcript-00-08-26-120) It's going to flow into the rest of the Old Testament.

[\[00:08:29\]](#transcript-00-08-29-121) It gives you a concept without giving you the word, it actually defines it without giving you a word.

[\[00:08:35\]](#transcript-00-08-35-122) Here's the concept: grace, right?

[\[00:08:39\]](#transcript-00-08-39-123) Genesis 3:15, without ever saying the word mercy and grace, gives you the concept of it.

[\[00:08:48\]](#transcript-00-08-48-124) That's right.

[\[00:08:48\]](#transcript-00-08-48-125) Now, later on, we learn the word and we use Genesis 3:15 as the way to define it.

[\[00:08:55\]](#transcript-00-08-55-126) Because the reason this is a really important part of this podcast that Justin, I wanted to do is that one of the things I'm realizing is that we're not allowing the Bible to define its terms.

[\[00:09:05\]](#transcript-00-09-05-127) This is part of what today is about: allowing the narrative of the Old Testament to define terms.

[\[00:09:12\]](#transcript-00-09-12-128) And as you're reading, first of all, we learn from Genesis 1 that God is above all other gods.

[\[00:09:19\]](#transcript-00-09-19-129) We learned this in Exodus, right?

[\[00:09:21\]](#transcript-00-09-21-130) That there are other gods.

[\[00:09:22\]](#transcript-00-09-22-131) So, God is above all other gods.

[\[00:09:23\]](#transcript-00-09-23-132) Why?

[\[00:09:23\]](#transcript-00-09-23-133) Because he's the creator and sustainer of the world, that he created humanity, he set the terms.

[\[00:09:29\]](#transcript-00-09-29-134) And the moment that they broke the terms, what are they faced with?

[\[00:09:32\]](#transcript-00-09-32-135) Gospel.

[\[00:09:33\]](#transcript-00-09-33-136) They are faced with grace.

[\[00:09:35\]](#transcript-00-09-35-137) And that grace is defined as God's act wholly and man receiving completely, right?

[\[00:09:42\]](#transcript-00-09-42-138) That is the definition of it.

[\[00:09:44\]](#transcript-00-09-44-139) So that's the first interaction that we have with sin and grace in the Bible.

[\[00:09:50\]](#transcript-00-09-50-140) And then you have to ask yourself: okay, well, how does grace work then?

[\[00:09:55\]](#transcript-00-09-55-141) Then, how does the gospel work?

[\[00:09:58\]](#transcript-00-09-58-142) And that's where you keep reading.

[\[00:09:59\]](#transcript-00-09-59-143) You keep reading the unfolding promise of the Messiah.

[\[00:10:03\]](#transcript-00-10-03-144) Amen.

[\[00:10:03\]](#transcript-00-10-03-145) The war, the war between the seeds, really.

[\[00:10:05\]](#transcript-00-10-05-146) So true.

[\[00:10:07\]](#transcript-00-10-07-147) So

[\[00:10:09\]](#transcript-00-10-09-148) you've kind of said this.

[\[00:10:10\]](#transcript-00-10-10-149) I just want to repackage it because I think it's an observation worth making.

[\[00:10:14\]](#transcript-00-10-14-150) Genesis 3:15, in theological terms, is often referred to as the proto-yuon galeon, meaning the first pronouncement of the good news.

[\[00:10:23\]](#transcript-00-10-23-151) And it is really, really important.

[\[00:10:26\]](#transcript-00-10-26-152) We agree with that.

[\[00:10:27\]](#transcript-00-10-27-153) And it's really important that we see, like you said, God doesn't tell Adam and Eve anything to do, He doesn't give them a command.

[\[00:10:34\]](#transcript-00-10-34-154) He doesn't put requirements on them in any way, shape, or form.

[\[00:10:37\]](#transcript-00-10-37-155) He actually requires nothing of them at all.

[\[00:10:39\]](#transcript-00-10-39-156) He just says, promises, pronounces what he is going to do.

[\[00:10:44\]](#transcript-00-10-44-157) And if that is true from Jump Street in terms of the first time the good news is uttered, then it's going to be true throughout.

[\[00:10:53\]](#transcript-00-10-53-158) We've said this before, and it, again, sometimes gets people worked up and upset with us: that the gospel contains nothing in it whatsoever that we are to do or to contribute.

[\[00:11:03\]](#transcript-00-11-03-159) It is completely a message of what God alone does through Jesus Christ for us and then gives to us.

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-160) We receive it by faith, not by works.

[\[00:11:11\]](#transcript-00-11-11-161) You know, it's by grace, not by merit.

[\[00:11:14\]](#transcript-00-11-14-162) Where the law demands everything and gives nothing.

[\[00:11:18\]](#transcript-00-11-18-163) It's an exacting standard.

[\[00:11:19\]](#transcript-00-11-19-164) There's no mercy in the law.

[\[00:11:20\]](#transcript-00-11-20-165) It's you either keep it perfectly or you are condemned.

[\[00:11:24\]](#transcript-00-11-24-166) The gospel actually demands nothing of us and gives us everything.

[\[00:11:29\]](#transcript-00-11-29-167) And that is true from Genesis 3:15 onward.

[\[00:11:33\]](#transcript-00-11-33-168) Yet, that's a difficult concept for us as human beings because we're always wanting to introduce ourselves into the equation somehow.

[\[00:11:39\]](#transcript-00-11-39-169) We're always wanting to introduce works and merit and these kinds of things into the gospel and weave it into the fabric of salvation.

[\[00:11:47\]](#transcript-00-11-47-170) Can't do that, guys.

[\[00:11:48\]](#transcript-00-11-48-171) It's a collapsing of categories, and you really give it all away when you do that.

[\[00:11:53\]](#transcript-00-11-53-172) So, as you trace the story from Genesis 3:15 onward, I mean, you have all kinds of things that, I mean, we could spend a long, long time, I mean, surveying the Old Testament.

[\[00:12:05\]](#transcript-00-12-05-173) I mean, a little shout out to our friends, Chad Bird and Daniel Henry Price, on their podcast, 40 Minutes in the Old Testament.

[\[00:12:10\]](#transcript-00-12-10-174) We would encourage you to go check that out, where they kind of walk, they really do walk through the Old Testament and they are showing you Christ throughout.

[\[00:12:16\]](#transcript-00-12-16-175) It's a good podcast.

[\[00:12:18\]](#transcript-00-12-18-176) Chat has a book called The Christ Key.

[\[00:12:19\]](#transcript-00-12-19-177) Yeah, excellent.

[\[00:12:21\]](#transcript-00-12-21-178) We would wholeheartedly commend that as well.

[\[00:12:23\]](#transcript-00-12-23-179) Sam Renahan's book, The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom, is also really helpful on some of these subjects as well.

[\[00:12:30\]](#transcript-00-12-30-180) But as you even follow the book of Genesis, these themes repeat themselves.

[\[00:12:33\]](#transcript-00-12-33-181) God is calling people to Himself who don't deserve it and who weren't seeking for Him.

[\[00:12:38\]](#transcript-00-12-38-182) I mean, He calls Abram out of paganism, He preaches the gospel to Him, He says He's going to make a people out of him.

[\[00:12:43\]](#transcript-00-12-43-183) And then, I mean, even, you know, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, my goodness, I mean, we could talk about Jacob's life for quite some time.

[\[00:12:49\]](#transcript-00-12-49-184) I mean, these people are just like you and me, Jon, and they're just like every listener out there.

[\[00:12:54\]](#transcript-00-12-54-185) They're weak, they're sinful, they're frail, they have no righteousness of their own, and it is completely and only what God does for them that results in their salvation.

[\[00:13:04\]](#transcript-00-13-04-186) And they are trusting the promises of God that are realized in Jesus Christ.

[\[00:13:09\]](#transcript-00-13-09-187) And as we fast forward through the book of Genesis, people are familiar with the remarkable providences of God that result in Joseph going down to Egypt to effectively function as a savior, as a type of Christ, to deliver

[\[00:13:22\]](#transcript-00-13-22-188) God's people from famine and from certain death, right?

[\[00:13:26\]](#transcript-00-13-26-189) And so then, as the people are in Egypt, you know, Joseph and that whole generation dies, there's a new king in the land, and he is oppressing the people of Israel because he's afraid of them.

[\[00:13:35\]](#transcript-00-13-35-190) They've become many in the land.

[\[00:13:36\]](#transcript-00-13-36-191) And what if a war breaks out?

[\[00:13:38\]](#transcript-00-13-38-192) He says, and they side with the enemy.

[\[00:13:39\]](#transcript-00-13-39-193) This isn't going to be good.

[\[00:13:40\]](#transcript-00-13-40-194) So he enslaves them and makes all these, like, there's black ops, you know, like, we're going to kill all the Hebrew male children.

[\[00:13:49\]](#transcript-00-13-49-195) And when that doesn't work, because the midwives don't listen to them, it's like, all right, well, we're going to throw all the Hebrew male children into the Nile River to their death.

[\[00:13:55\]](#transcript-00-13-55-196) You know, these kinds of things are happening.

[\[00:13:57\]](#transcript-00-13-57-197) So God raises up a deliverer in Moses, and his life is miraculously preserved through his own ark, right?

[\[00:14:05\]](#transcript-00-14-05-198) That the basket that he's put into is literally the same noun that shows up only in one other place in scripture, and that's in the account of the flood.

[\[00:14:12\]](#transcript-00-14-12-199) Just like Noah and his family are brought safely through water in an ark, so is Moses.

[\[00:14:17\]](#transcript-00-14-17-200) And the Lord uses three

[\[00:14:21\]](#transcript-00-14-21-201) several women to preserve Moses's life.

[\[00:14:23\]](#transcript-00-14-23-202) This is something the Lord will do over and over again as well, where you know, even Pharaoh's own daughter is an instrument in the Lord's hands.

[\[00:14:29\]](#transcript-00-14-29-203) And many are familiar with the story.

[\[00:14:31\]](#transcript-00-14-31-204) I mean, Moses ends up murdering a man when he's 40 years old.

[\[00:14:34\]](#transcript-00-14-34-205) He has to flee the land of Egypt into the desert, and he's there for 40 years.

[\[00:14:38\]](#transcript-00-14-38-206) And then the Lord appears to him in a burning bush.

[\[00:14:42\]](#transcript-00-14-42-207) And we're going to get to some of these things in Exodus, and then we'll just use this as a launching off point.

[\[00:14:47\]](#transcript-00-14-47-208) Many people are familiar with the account of the burning bush.

[\[00:14:49\]](#transcript-00-14-49-209) One thing that I was never taught when I was young, Jon, I don't know about you, is who it is in particular that comes to speak to him.

[\[00:14:55\]](#transcript-00-14-55-210) It's the angel of the Lord, he's the messenger of Yahweh.

[\[00:14:58\]](#transcript-00-14-58-211) He identifies himself as Yahweh, he speaks as Yahweh.

[\[00:15:02\]](#transcript-00-15-02-212) And we understand, along with many through history, that this is the Son of God.

[\[00:15:06\]](#transcript-00-15-06-213) So it is appropriate to say that this is Jesus speaking to Moses from the burning bush.

[\[00:15:11\]](#transcript-00-15-11-214) And he says to Moses, I have heard my people's cries, and I have come down to deliver them.

[\[00:15:17\]](#transcript-00-15-17-215) What a word.

[\[00:15:19\]](#transcript-00-15-19-216) Go ahead.

[\[00:15:19\]](#transcript-00-15-19-217) And that is such a powerful thing.

[\[00:15:23\]](#transcript-00-15-23-218) You and I are going to do a whole pod on the angel of the Lord here very soon.

[\[00:15:25\]](#transcript-00-15-25-219) Yeah, it'd be great for Christ and the, but you know, the people hear the word angel and they're like, there's no way Jesus can be an angel.

[\[00:15:31\]](#transcript-00-15-31-220) And it's like, well, the words we don't understand.

[\[00:15:34\]](#transcript-00-15-34-221) Yeah, we don't have our titles correct here.

[\[00:15:36\]](#transcript-00-15-36-222) That's like saying that a human being can't be a mailman.

[\[00:15:39\]](#transcript-00-15-39-223) It's like, well, that's just a description of a job.

[\[00:15:42\]](#transcript-00-15-42-224) So, but it the reason why this is important is that the angel of the Lord shows up a lot in the Old Testament.

[\[00:15:48\]](#transcript-00-15-48-225) And it's always very important reasons.

[\[00:15:50\]](#transcript-00-15-50-226) And it's always Jesus.

[\[00:15:52\]](#transcript-00-15-52-227) That's right.

[\[00:15:52\]](#transcript-00-15-52-228) Always.

[\[00:15:53\]](#transcript-00-15-53-229) And so it's important for us to understand that, but specifically in this particular area, you have these what's called Christophanies, right?

[\[00:16:01\]](#transcript-00-16-01-230) Where Christ is showing forth, and it's this pre, because it's this pre-incarnate state, it's what it is, right?

[\[00:16:09\]](#transcript-00-16-09-231) And it's, it's, it's, when you, when you start reading the, when you actually allow the Old Testament to be what it is, a buildup of vocabulary and theological concepts for the gospel, that's exactly what it is.

[\[00:16:22\]](#transcript-00-16-22-232) I mean, literally, when Jesus shows up, he's like, Well, the Old Testament's about me.

[\[00:16:26\]](#transcript-00-16-26-233) You should have had a Christology based upon the Old Testament.

[\[00:16:30\]](#transcript-00-16-30-234) I showed up a bunch.

[\[00:16:31\]](#transcript-00-16-31-235) I showed up a bunch.

[\[00:16:33\]](#transcript-00-16-33-236) Showed you.

[\[00:16:33\]](#transcript-00-16-33-237) And you know what's not, you know, what's encouraging about that, Jon?

[\[00:16:35\]](#transcript-00-16-35-238) Is that I think a lot of times we wouldn't say it out loud like this, just kind of what we think.

[\[00:16:40\]](#transcript-00-16-40-239) It's like, well, way in eternity past, way back when, before the world was a thing and time and space were a thing, God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit planned redemption.

[\[00:16:48\]](#transcript-00-16-48-240) Praise the Lord.

[\[00:16:49\]](#transcript-00-16-49-241) And then it's like, all right, creation happens.

[\[00:16:52\]](#transcript-00-16-52-242) And it's like God, the Son is just kind of waiting.

[\[00:16:55\]](#transcript-00-16-55-243) Yeah.

[\[00:16:56\]](#transcript-00-16-56-244) I'm waiting for my time.

[\[00:16:57\]](#transcript-00-16-57-245) He's just kind of waiting for his time, but it's like, I'm not going to get involved.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-246) I'm not going to get engaged until it's my time to go down there, like in becoming incarnate by the Holy Spirit via the Virgin Mary.

[\[00:17:07\]](#transcript-00-17-07-247) Until then, I'm uninvolved.

[\[00:17:09\]](#transcript-00-17-09-248) Could not be further from the truth.

[\[00:17:11\]](#transcript-00-17-11-249) It's like Jesus, God the Son, has been intimately involved all along.

[\[00:17:17\]](#transcript-00-17-17-250) And I think when you have the eyes to see this and you start to read the Old Testament and see how often he shows up and is speaking to people.

[\[00:17:25\]](#transcript-00-17-25-251) I mean, dude, I can't wait to get to Abraham.

[\[00:17:28\]](#transcript-00-17-28-252) Shows up to Abraham.

[\[00:17:29\]](#transcript-00-17-29-253) I know.

[\[00:17:29\]](#transcript-00-17-29-254) Yeah, Genesis 18.

[\[00:17:31\]](#transcript-00-17-31-255) I cannot wait to get to Exodus 33 and 4.

[\[00:17:34\]](#transcript-00-17-34-256) When the Lord, literally, in 34, 6, and 7, which is where famously many people know these verses, where he reveals his name.

[\[00:17:43\]](#transcript-00-17-43-257) Again, he kind of defines it: the Lord, the Lord, a God, merciful, gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love, right?

[\[00:17:48\]](#transcript-00-17-48-258) And faithfulness.

[\[00:17:49\]](#transcript-00-17-49-259) Well, right before that, in verse 5, it says the Lord came and stood next to Moses and then says this.

[\[00:17:56\]](#transcript-00-17-56-260) Well, who do we think that is?

[\[00:17:58\]](#transcript-00-17-58-261) It's God the Son, it's Jesus coming down to define his own name.

[\[00:18:03\]](#transcript-00-18-03-262) And that, all of this, Jon, thinking that Jesus is the one who says in Exodus 3, when Moses asked, What's your name?

[\[00:18:11\]](#transcript-00-18-11-263) He says, I am who I am.

[\[00:18:13\]](#transcript-00-18-13-264) And then in Exodus 34, the Lord, the Lord, a God, merciful, grace, slow to anger, makes it hit all that much more when Jesus shows up in the gospels and starts to say things like, before Abraham was, I

[\[00:18:25\]](#transcript-00-18-25-265) am, or when he catches up to the disciples on the Sea of Galilee in Mark 6, and he means to pass by them like he did Moses in Exodus 33.

[\[00:18:34\]](#transcript-00-18-34-266) And he says, take heart.

[\[00:18:36\]](#transcript-00-18-36-267) It is I.

[\[00:18:37\]](#transcript-00-18-37-268) Literally, it says, take heart, I am, right?

[\[00:18:41\]](#transcript-00-18-41-269) Like, this is Yahweh incarnate, and it's you see it so vividly, and this is so exciting to me.

[\[00:18:47\]](#transcript-00-18-47-270) And I noticed to you, you see it so clearly in the New Testament when you're rightly reading the old, because the old testament is all about him, too.

[\[00:18:55\]](#transcript-00-18-55-271) That's right.

[\[00:18:56\]](#transcript-00-18-56-272) Yeah.

[\[00:18:56\]](#transcript-00-18-56-273) Well, it's not only about him, it's about the gospel.

[\[00:19:00\]](#transcript-00-19-00-274) That's what he would come and do, right?

[\[00:19:02\]](#transcript-00-19-02-275) Yeah, this is why a covenantal supernatural reading of scripture allows the Bible to be what it is, right?

[\[00:19:10\]](#transcript-00-19-10-276) And we kind of make fun of this word.

[\[00:19:12\]](#transcript-00-19-12-277) I know Pat likes to make fun of this word journey, but as you journey, everybody's on a journey.

[\[00:19:17\]](#transcript-00-19-17-278) Everybody's on a journey.

[\[00:19:18\]](#transcript-00-19-18-279) We're all on a journey today.

[\[00:19:19\]](#transcript-00-19-19-280) That's right.

[\[00:19:20\]](#transcript-00-19-20-281) That's right.

[\[00:19:21\]](#transcript-00-19-21-282) But as you plow through scripture, however, you want to say it, You're gaining, you're gaining context.

[\[00:19:29\]](#transcript-00-19-29-283) Yeah, I do.

[\[00:19:30\]](#transcript-00-19-30-284) You're gaining theology.

[\[00:19:32\]](#transcript-00-19-32-285) You're gaining.

[\[00:19:32\]](#transcript-00-19-32-286) Like you said earlier, vocabulary.

[\[00:19:34\]](#transcript-00-19-34-287) Vocabulary.

[\[00:19:36\]](#transcript-00-19-36-288) But more importantly, it's this: Justin.

[\[00:19:38\]](#transcript-00-19-38-289) When Jesus raises from the grave and finally fulfills, like it's like the pinnacle of the story, and all those times, then later on, John goes, Look, I wrote these things that you might see and believe, and in believing,

[\[00:19:56\]](#transcript-00-19-56-290) have eternal life.

[\[00:19:58\]](#transcript-00-19-58-291) That's the whole point, guys.

[\[00:19:59\]](#transcript-00-19-59-292) The whole point of the Bible is for you to see God is sufficient.

[\[00:20:04\]](#transcript-00-20-04-293) He is sufficient to save.

[\[00:20:06\]](#transcript-00-20-06-294) The Exodus is the greatest example the Old New Testament uses as the sufficiency of God's power to save his people.

[\[00:20:13\]](#transcript-00-20-13-295) Absolutely.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-296) He did what he did physically, he does spiritually.

[\[00:20:16\]](#transcript-00-20-16-297) That's the point.

[\[00:20:17\]](#transcript-00-20-17-298) Exactly.

[\[00:20:18\]](#transcript-00-20-18-299) What I did in the Exodus physically, I'm doing spiritually.

[\[00:20:21\]](#transcript-00-20-21-300) Exactly.

[\[00:20:21\]](#transcript-00-20-21-301) Because out of Egypt came my son, and who was Jesus.

[\[00:20:24\]](#transcript-00-20-24-302) Amen.

[\[00:20:25\]](#transcript-00-20-25-303) And even in the transfiguration, when Jesus is speaking to Moses and Elijah, he literally is talking about, in our English, it often comes across it's rendered departure, but the literal word is Exodus.

[\[00:20:37\]](#transcript-00-20-37-304) He is speaking to Moses and Elijah about the Exodus that he was going to accomplish.

[\[00:20:43\]](#transcript-00-20-43-305) It's like, dude, it's shot through scripture, these themes of deliverance and redemption and rescue, and God bringing his people out of bondage, like we talked about last week, into a land that he is going to give them eternally.

[\[00:20:58\]](#transcript-00-20-58-306) Right?

[\[00:20:59\]](#transcript-00-20-59-307) This is not a New Testament idea.

[\[00:21:02\]](#transcript-00-21-02-308) Like, this is all through the scriptures when you have eyes to see it.

[\[00:21:06\]](#transcript-00-21-06-309) Hey guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:21:11\]](#transcript-00-21-11-310) So, where do you go?

[\[00:21:12\]](#transcript-00-21-12-311) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:21:16\]](#transcript-00-21-16-312) We have started something called the Theocast community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources are there.

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-313) Past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:21:30\]](#transcript-00-21-30-314) You can go check it out.

[\[00:21:31\]](#transcript-00-21-31-315) The link is in the description below.

[\[00:21:34\]](#transcript-00-21-34-316) I just want to jump in here too.

[\[00:21:35\]](#transcript-00-21-35-317) I think Exodus is one of the greatest examples since you're going through it right now.

[\[00:21:38\]](#transcript-00-21-38-318) It's a great example between the wars, between the kingdoms, because it starts in Genesis 3.

[\[00:21:43\]](#transcript-00-21-43-319) Oh, for sure.

[\[00:21:44\]](#transcript-00-21-44-320) And then, who is Moses coming to?

[\[00:21:47\]](#transcript-00-21-47-321) Because Pharaoh asked him, Well, what God are you representing?

[\[00:21:50\]](#transcript-00-21-50-322) Exactly.

[\[00:21:50\]](#transcript-00-21-50-323) Because there's multiple gods.

[\[00:21:52\]](#transcript-00-21-52-324) Well, and Pharaoh himself would have understood himself to be an incarnate deity, an incarnate God.

[\[00:21:57\]](#transcript-00-21-57-325) So, what does God do?

[\[00:21:59\]](#transcript-00-21-59-326) He shames the rest of the gods.

[\[00:22:01\]](#transcript-00-22-01-327) He utterly ashames them.

[\[00:22:03\]](#transcript-00-22-03-328) Which seed was not to.

[\[00:22:05\]](#transcript-00-22-05-329) Right.

[\[00:22:05\]](#transcript-00-22-05-330) And he doesn't do so saying you don't exist, he acknowledges their existence and utterly shames them by using plugs to shame them.

[\[00:22:13\]](#transcript-00-22-13-331) And then what does he do when he pulls them out?

[\[00:22:14\]](#transcript-00-22-14-332) He's like, All right, I just proved to you I am the supreme Elohim, I am the supreme God.

[\[00:22:20\]](#transcript-00-22-20-333) Right.

[\[00:22:20\]](#transcript-00-22-20-334) Therefore, you will have no other gods before me.

[\[00:22:22\]](#transcript-00-22-22-335) It's the first command.

[\[00:22:24\]](#transcript-00-22-24-336) Exactly.

[\[00:22:25\]](#transcript-00-22-25-337) Right.

[\[00:22:25\]](#transcript-00-22-25-338) So, all of this should help us in our narratives when we get to the new, and all of a sudden Jesus is like, Well, Satan is the God of this world.

[\[00:22:31\]](#transcript-00-22-31-339) And we're like, What?

[\[00:22:33\]](#transcript-00-22-33-340) Well, that shouldn't shock you.

[\[00:22:35\]](#transcript-00-22-35-341) If you're at Job and if you've read Exodus, this is not a shocking situation.

[\[00:22:39\]](#transcript-00-22-39-342) And then Paul's like, hey, just so you know, as you proclaim the gospel, there are going to be other entities out there that don't like this.

[\[00:22:45\]](#transcript-00-22-45-343) Well, we knew that.

[\[00:22:47\]](#transcript-00-22-47-344) Look, Justin, what I think is interesting, you were talking about the children being killed.

[\[00:22:52\]](#transcript-00-22-52-345) Man, the evil one and that whole force of evil, they have been going after children forever, right?

[\[00:23:01\]](#transcript-00-23-01-346) Exodus is a great example.

[\[00:23:02\]](#transcript-00-23-02-347) Then they start murdering their children to Balak, to Balak, or Balaam.

[\[00:23:08\]](#transcript-00-23-08-348) Yep.

[\[00:23:09\]](#transcript-00-23-09-349) Then you get into the New Testament.

[\[00:23:11\]](#transcript-00-23-11-350) Yeah.

[\[00:23:12\]](#transcript-00-23-12-351) Yeah, Molech.

[\[00:23:12\]](#transcript-00-23-12-352) That was it.

[\[00:23:13\]](#transcript-00-23-13-353) Then you get into the New Testament.

[\[00:23:15\]](#transcript-00-23-15-354) He goes after the children again, trying to kill the Messiah, and he's still doing striking parallels in that and the Exodus narrative.

[\[00:23:21\]](#transcript-00-23-21-355) Yeah, absolutely.

[\[00:23:23\]](#transcript-00-23-23-356) And abortion today is like the evil one has been just utterly destroying.

[\[00:23:28\]](#transcript-00-23-28-357) And then, this is what Jesus says: He has come to steal our joy and our hope, to destroy our faith, and to kill.

[\[00:23:35\]](#transcript-00-23-35-358) And he is murdering millions of babies right now.

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-359) And all of this should be for us what we learned about this.

[\[00:23:43\]](#transcript-00-23-43-360) This isn't shocking.

[\[00:23:45\]](#transcript-00-23-45-361) This is part of the narrative all the way back starting in Genesis.

[\[00:23:49\]](#transcript-00-23-49-362) Sorry, in Exodus.

[\[00:23:50\]](#transcript-00-23-50-363) No, you're right.

[\[00:23:51\]](#transcript-00-23-51-364) So I'm going to track a few chapters super quick here in Exodus and talk a little bit more about some really marvelous things in terms of how we relate to God and about the gospel for a second.

[\[00:24:01\]](#transcript-00-24-01-365) So repeatedly, one of the cool things that shows up in Exodus over and over is how the cries of his people, the cries of God's people, make their way to him, and he hears.

[\[00:24:12\]](#transcript-00-24-12-366) Another thing that is marvelous is that the Lord sees the predicament of his people and he visits his people and he knows, like he's intimately acquainted with what they're going through, and he remembers his covenant, you know, that

[\[00:24:28\]](#transcript-00-24-28-367) he made with Abraham to give them a land, right?

[\[00:24:31\]](#transcript-00-24-31-368) And to make them numerous.

[\[00:24:32\]](#transcript-00-24-32-369) And whenever God says he's going to remember, here he says, I'm going to remember my covenant, or I remember my covenant.

[\[00:24:38\]](#transcript-00-24-38-370) It's not that he's calling to mind something that he's forgotten, or it's like, you know, this was kind of in the recesses of my brain, somewhere, and now I'm calling it to the front.

[\[00:24:44\]](#transcript-00-24-44-371) It's not that at all.

[\[00:24:45\]](#transcript-00-24-45-372) It's that God is now going to act to deliver on the promises that He's made.

[\[00:24:51\]](#transcript-00-24-51-373) So those things show up over and over again.

[\[00:24:53\]](#transcript-00-24-53-374) But Moses goes before Pharaoh, Moses and Aaron, and they just lead off with thus says the Lord.

[\[00:25:01\]](#transcript-00-25-01-375) And to you, like you were alluding to a minute ago, I mean, Pharaoh's kind of like, Yeah, I mean, who is Yahweh that I should do what he says?

[\[00:25:08\]](#transcript-00-25-08-376) Like, I don't know him.

[\[00:25:10\]](#transcript-00-25-10-377) That's right.

[\[00:25:10\]](#transcript-00-25-10-378) And I'm not inclined.

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-379) And I'm not inclined to let the people of Israel go.

[\[00:25:13\]](#transcript-00-25-13-380) I mean, that's effectively what he says.

[\[00:25:14\]](#transcript-00-25-14-381) And so then Moses and Aaron kind of pivot, sort of an interesting pivot, like in their own schemes, in my opinion, where they're like, well, you know, the God of the Hebrews has met with us.

[\[00:25:22\]](#transcript-00-25-22-382) And if we can't journey out into the wilderness and make sacrifices to him, he's probably going to kill us, which is interesting because Pharaoh's like, you're talking to me about sword and pestilence falling on you.

[\[00:25:31\]](#transcript-00-25-31-383) I'm the one holding the sword, you know, and I could put a little something on you if pestilence is what you're after.

[\[00:25:36\]](#transcript-00-25-36-384) You know, it's just an interesting thing.

[\[00:25:38\]](#transcript-00-25-38-385) So, of course, this all results in Pharaoh keeps saying, listen, the people are lazy.

[\[00:25:42\]](#transcript-00-25-42-386) The people are idle.

[\[00:25:43\]](#transcript-00-25-43-387) They got too much time on their hands, which is why they're constantly, you guys are always talking about needing to go and take a vacation out into the desert to sacrifice to your God or whatever.

[\[00:25:52\]](#transcript-00-25-52-388) You need to get to work.

[\[00:25:53\]](#transcript-00-25-53-389) And so he makes their lives harder by taking away the straw, right?

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-390) They got to go get their own straw to make bricks with.

[\[00:25:59\]](#transcript-00-25-59-391) And the Israelite foremen are getting beaten because the BRIC quota is not being met now, because there's a lot more work to do and no time to do it.

[\[00:26:08\]](#transcript-00-26-08-392) And so this results in the Israelite foreman going to Pharaoh and like, why are you treating us like this?

[\[00:26:15\]](#transcript-00-26-15-393) You know, this is unreasonable.

[\[00:26:17\]](#transcript-00-26-17-394) And Pharaoh isn't hearing it.

[\[00:26:19\]](#transcript-00-26-19-395) He says, you know, you're still not going to get straw and your quota is not going to be reduced.

[\[00:26:22\]](#transcript-00-26-22-396) Get back to work.

[\[00:26:23\]](#transcript-00-26-23-397) And so then, as the foremen are leaving Pharaoh, they run into Moses and Aaron in the waiting room, right?

[\[00:26:28\]](#transcript-00-26-28-398) And they say to Moses, May the Lord look upon you and judge you, because you have basically ruined our lives and you've put a sword into Pharaoh's hand with which he's going to kill us.

[\[00:26:39\]](#transcript-00-26-39-399) And

[\[00:26:40\]](#transcript-00-26-40-400) really shocking to me is how the Lord then, or excuse me, Moses then turns to God and says very blunt, direct, honest things.

[\[00:26:50\]](#transcript-00-26-50-401) He says, Lord, effectively this: why do you do evil to this people?

[\[00:26:56\]](#transcript-00-26-56-402) Ever since I've come here and I'm saying the things that you've told me to say, Pharaoh has only done evil things to this people, and you have not delivered your people at all.

[\[00:27:09\]](#transcript-00-27-09-403) It's like he said, What?

[\[00:27:12\]](#transcript-00-27-12-404) He just said to the Lord, You have not done a blessed thing to help your people since I came here and started saying what you told me to say.

[\[00:27:21\]](#transcript-00-27-21-405) And what's shocking is what the Lord doesn't do.

[\[00:27:23\]](#transcript-00-27-23-406) He doesn't drop the hammer, he doesn't strike Moses dead.

[\[00:27:25\]](#transcript-00-27-25-407) He then says, Moses, just wait and see what I'm going to do.

[\[00:27:29\]](#transcript-00-27-29-408) Just watch and see what I'm about to do.

[\[00:27:32\]](#transcript-00-27-32-409) And then he functionally preaches the gospel to him.

[\[00:27:34\]](#transcript-00-27-34-410) This is amazing.

[\[00:27:35\]](#transcript-00-27-35-411) This is in Exodus 6.

[\[00:27:37\]](#transcript-00-27-37-412) I'm not going to labor this long, but it goes this way.

[\[00:27:40\]](#transcript-00-27-40-413) He says, and I'm saying his name, Yahweh, that is the Lord, right?

[\[00:27:44\]](#transcript-00-27-44-414) So he says, I am Yahweh.

[\[00:27:46\]](#transcript-00-27-46-415) I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

[\[00:27:49\]](#transcript-00-27-49-416) I will deliver you from slavery.

[\[00:27:50\]](#transcript-00-27-50-417) I will redeem you.

[\[00:27:51\]](#transcript-00-27-51-418) I will take you to be my people.

[\[00:27:53\]](#transcript-00-27-53-419) I will be your God.

[\[00:27:54\]](#transcript-00-27-54-420) I will bring you into the land.

[\[00:27:55\]](#transcript-00-27-55-421) I will give it to you as a possession.

[\[00:27:57\]](#transcript-00-27-57-422) I am Yahweh.

[\[00:27:59\]](#transcript-00-27-59-423) That's how he says it, and it's like that is who I am, and who I am means all of that for you.

[\[00:28:06\]](#transcript-00-28-06-424) That's right, redemption and deliverance, and I'm going to take you to myself, and I'm going to be your God, and I'm going to give you a land to be your possession forever.

[\[00:28:14\]](#transcript-00-28-14-425) That's who I am, and that's what I'm going to do for you.

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-426) I'm the Lord.

[\[00:28:18\]](#transcript-00-28-18-427) What a marvelous statement.

[\[00:28:20\]](#transcript-00-28-20-428) And just for our purposes, right here, kind of where we started with Genesis 3:15, how God did not require anything of Adam and Eve.

[\[00:28:26\]](#transcript-00-28-26-429) There is not a whiff of synergism in Exodus 6.

[\[00:28:30\]](#transcript-00-28-30-430) Synergism meaning us working with God, us cooperating with God for salvation.

[\[00:28:36\]](#transcript-00-28-36-431) It is monergistic.

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-432) There is one person working, and it is the Lord.

[\[00:28:40\]](#transcript-00-28-40-433) And that is the good news: that He is the Savior, and He does it all, and that's who He is, and He's a Redeemer by nature.

[\[00:28:50\]](#transcript-00-28-50-434) Right.

[\[00:28:50\]](#transcript-00-28-50-435) Anyway, just wonderful stuff.

[\[00:28:52\]](#transcript-00-28-52-436) Wonderful stuff.

[\[00:28:52\]](#transcript-00-28-52-437) No, man, I think it's awesome.

[\[00:28:54\]](#transcript-00-28-54-438) I mean, what's interesting is you fast-forward to Israel's unfortunate history and their constant rebellion and turning to, because they just keep turning to other gods, is what they just keep doing.

[\[00:29:04\]](#transcript-00-29-04-439) You eventually get to the book of Hosea and you read Hosea, and you're just realizing, like, what a rough book.

[\[00:29:10\]](#transcript-00-29-10-440) I mean, it's really, really.

[\[00:29:12\]](#transcript-00-29-12-441) And at the end, he divorces Israel and says, I'm done with you.

[\[00:29:16\]](#transcript-00-29-16-442) And then at the end, he's like, Not really.

[\[00:29:19\]](#transcript-00-29-19-443) My heart, his heart won't allow him to.

[\[00:29:21\]](#transcript-00-29-21-444) That's right.

[\[00:29:22\]](#transcript-00-29-22-445) But Divorces her, he divorces her so he can bring her back.

[\[00:29:26\]](#transcript-00-29-26-446) Yeah.

[\[00:29:26\]](#transcript-00-29-26-447) Right.

[\[00:29:27\]](#transcript-00-29-27-448) He likes turns her over to herself so he can then ultimately redeem her and bring her back.

[\[00:29:31\]](#transcript-00-29-31-449) And it is an interesting story, and it's got a lot of characters, it's got a lot of movement.

[\[00:29:38\]](#transcript-00-29-38-450) And I understand at times as you read your old Testament, you can get into the weeds and you forget that, like, hey, look, sometimes we need setup because that setup becomes very important later on, like the law, the

[\[00:29:49\]](#transcript-00-29-49-451) Levitical law, and all of that.

[\[00:29:50\]](#transcript-00-29-50-452) That's really important.

[\[00:29:52\]](#transcript-00-29-52-453) If you're not reading it in light of what it's for, it can become very, you know, like, whoa.

[\[00:29:57\]](#transcript-00-29-57-454) And the genealogies, people kind of get all wigged out about the genealogies.

[\[00:30:01\]](#transcript-00-30-01-455) But hey, listen, you know why the genealogies matter?

[\[00:30:04\]](#transcript-00-30-04-456) It's not so we get the age of the earth right.

[\[00:30:06\]](#transcript-00-30-06-457) I mean, not to get into that debate.

[\[00:30:08\]](#transcript-00-30-08-458) Oh my gosh, go ahead.

[\[00:30:09\]](#transcript-00-30-09-459) We have to have a genealogy.

[\[00:30:11\]](#transcript-00-30-11-460) Yeah, we have to have a genealogy because there was a promise made that from the line of Adam that went through the line of Noah, he had to purify the generation.

[\[00:30:21\]](#transcript-00-30-21-461) Abraham.

[\[00:30:23\]](#transcript-00-30-23-462) So we know from Noah, Abraham.

[\[00:30:25\]](#transcript-00-30-25-463) Yeah.

[\[00:30:25\]](#transcript-00-30-25-464) And it wasn't Judah.

[\[00:30:26\]](#transcript-00-30-26-465) It was David.

[\[00:30:28\]](#transcript-00-30-28-466) That's right.

[\[00:30:28\]](#transcript-00-30-28-467) And so as you follow this, you have to understand that we're looking for the Messiah who becomes the savior of the world.

[\[00:30:36\]](#transcript-00-30-36-468) And the whole Old Testament is about God's preservation of his promised Messiah through humanity, and he uses Israel as a means to preserve it.

[\[00:30:45\]](#transcript-00-30-45-469) The weakest nation in the planet, that's what he ends up using.

[\[00:30:49\]](#transcript-00-30-49-470) Why?

[\[00:30:49\]](#transcript-00-30-49-471) Because all glory goes to the king and not to the kingdom.

[\[00:30:54\]](#transcript-00-30-54-472) So, genealogies, just briefly, I mean, typically, Leviticus and genealogies is where people are just like, man, I'm checking out of my Bible reading plan.

[\[00:31:01\]](#transcript-00-31-01-473) You know, I just can't do this.

[\[00:31:02\]](#transcript-00-31-02-474) I just got to skip over this or fly right by it or something.

[\[00:31:05\]](#transcript-00-31-05-475) But genealogies preach a word to us and they preach the gospel to us, like you're saying.

[\[00:31:09\]](#transcript-00-31-09-476) it's it allows us to trace how God really does keep his promises in time and space and how he has been faithful through all of these generations to keep working as a redeemer.

[\[00:31:23\]](#transcript-00-31-23-477) And it also shows us a number of things.

[\[00:31:25\]](#transcript-00-31-25-478) Something else to me that was striking even in the genealogy that's there in, sorry, I'm leaning away from the mic, even the genealogy that's there in Exodus 6, you know, that zero's in on the tribe of Levi because

[\[00:31:37\]](#transcript-00-31-37-479) that's where Moses and Aaron come from.

[\[00:31:39\]](#transcript-00-31-39-480) There are a number of generations that are recorded there.

[\[00:31:42\]](#transcript-00-31-42-481) And it's like, man, God, God works on his own timetable, too.

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-482) And, like, the Lord is accomplishing through this Moses and this Aaron, right, promises that he had made back to Abraham many, many, many, many generations ago.

[\[00:31:57\]](#transcript-00-31-57-483) And so, I'm mindful of like Peter's words, right?

[\[00:31:59\]](#transcript-00-31-59-484) Don't do not count slowness with the Lord as some count slowness, right?

[\[00:32:03\]](#transcript-00-32-03-485) He is not dilly-dallying, he's not delaying, he's accomplishing all of his purposes and his plans in his time.

[\[00:32:09\]](#transcript-00-32-09-486) You know, and genealogy shows us that too.

[\[00:32:12\]](#transcript-00-32-12-487) You know, this is like total comedy at this moment, but it is funny.

[\[00:32:16\]](#transcript-00-32-16-488) The two men who never die and don't get to live out their life are the two men that are really described as like some of the most righteous men in the Old Testament.

[\[00:32:25\]](#transcript-00-32-25-489) And God's like, Yeah, you're too righteous.

[\[00:32:27\]](#transcript-00-32-27-490) I can't use you.

[\[00:32:27\]](#transcript-00-32-27-491) Whoop, up, you go.

[\[00:32:29\]](#transcript-00-32-29-492) I got to get the bag.

[\[00:32:30\]](#transcript-00-32-30-493) I'm using the bag, guys, and you're too righteous.

[\[00:32:33\]](#transcript-00-32-33-494) And I'm not going to wait for you to turn bad.

[\[00:32:34\]](#transcript-00-32-34-495) So, whoop, up, you go, Enoch, and whoop, up, oh, you go, Elijah, and we're going to use Abraham.

[\[00:32:41\]](#transcript-00-32-41-496) Sorry, this is a total joke, but it is funny.

[\[00:32:43\]](#transcript-00-32-43-497) It's kind of like, all right, I want to become so holy and righteous.

[\[00:32:46\]](#transcript-00-32-46-498) God's like, the point, you're too good.

[\[00:32:48\]](#transcript-00-32-48-499) I'm going to take you home.

[\[00:32:49\]](#transcript-00-32-49-500) The point is, he uses broken vessels and draws straight lines with crooked sticks.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-501) It's all he's got to work with, right?

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-502) That's what he does.

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-503) I mean, do you ever wonder why he just took him home?

[\[00:32:58\]](#transcript-00-32-58-504) I mean, he doesn't tell you.

[\[00:32:59\]](#transcript-00-32-59-505) He does not tell you.

[\[00:33:01\]](#transcript-00-33-01-506) He doesn't, but it is funny.

[\[00:33:02\]](#transcript-00-33-02-507) It's like, well, he's too righteous.

[\[00:33:04\]](#transcript-00-33-04-508) I'm going to take him home.

[\[00:33:06\]](#transcript-00-33-06-509) So, that's total side note.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-510) I just thought of it.

[\[00:33:09\]](#transcript-00-33-09-511) That's how my brain works.

[\[00:33:10\]](#transcript-00-33-10-512) That's how Jon's brain works, guys.

[\[00:33:12\]](#transcript-00-33-12-513) Yeah.

[\[00:33:12\]](#transcript-00-33-12-514) So, I just wanted to recap it back.

[\[00:33:14\]](#transcript-00-33-14-515) So, Justin, this being said, we find a lot of comfort when we finally get to the New Testament.

[\[00:33:20\]](#transcript-00-33-20-516) The New Testament writers are looking at the old, going, Yeah, it's about Jesus.

[\[00:33:25\]](#transcript-00-33-25-517) And this is about the unfolding story of redemption, about how God's sovereign grace and mercy is brought upon people who can prove over and over again they cannot earn God's favor.

[\[00:33:37\]](#transcript-00-33-37-518) And God's favor, so God's wrath is revealed, and it needs to be revealed because it helps us understand that one cannot be righteous before the Lord based upon their own obedience.

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-519) So God's wrath is revealed and it's good and it's healthy for us to see.

[\[00:33:49\]](#transcript-00-33-49-520) And the law is revealed also for good and holy purposes.

[\[00:33:52\]](#transcript-00-33-52-521) Yeah.

[\[00:33:52\]](#transcript-00-33-52-522) Right.

[\[00:33:52\]](#transcript-00-33-52-523) And the law is wonderful.

[\[00:33:54\]](#transcript-00-33-54-524) And this is why we love the law because the law exposes us to the holiness of God and our need of a savior, and therefore God never left us hopeless.

[\[00:34:02\]](#transcript-00-34-02-525) What I think is interesting, Justin, is that before he gave the law, he gave the gospel, which is interesting.

[\[00:34:09\]](#transcript-00-34-09-526) I mean, technically, you can say he gave the law to Adam, the first original covenant of works.

[\[00:34:15\]](#transcript-00-34-15-527) But the promises of the gospel first came and then the law for clarification.

[\[00:34:20\]](#transcript-00-34-20-528) I mean, Paul is super clear on this in his letters.

[\[00:34:22\]](#transcript-00-34-22-529) Yeah.

[\[00:34:24\]](#transcript-00-34-24-530) So we just want to encourage everyone as you read the Old Testament that you should engage it.

[\[00:34:29\]](#transcript-00-34-29-531) It's a beautiful story.

[\[00:34:31\]](#transcript-00-34-31-532) It is ancient.

[\[00:34:32\]](#transcript-00-34-32-533) Listen, I'm tired of people who are like, they just make it sound like if you don't, if you struggle with the Old Testament, there's something wrong with your education or there's something wrong with your intellect.

[\[00:34:41\]](#transcript-00-34-41-534) It's an it's a dead language old book, guys.

[\[00:34:44\]](#transcript-00-34-44-535) It's complicated, all right?

[\[00:34:46\]](#transcript-00-34-46-536) It's hard to read.

[\[00:34:47\]](#transcript-00-34-47-537) Let's just acknowledge that it's going to take some work.

[\[00:34:50\]](#transcript-00-34-50-538) It's going to take work to preach it, to understand it, and study it.

[\[00:34:54\]](#transcript-00-34-54-539) But it's worth it, right?

[\[00:34:55\]](#transcript-00-34-55-540) It's worth the work.

[\[00:34:57\]](#transcript-00-34-57-541) But I get so frustrated.

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-542) It's like, it's fifth-grade leadering level.

[\[00:35:00\]](#transcript-00-35-00-543) Anybody should be able to understand it.

[\[00:35:01\]](#transcript-00-35-01-544) And I'm like, and that's why we don't have heresies because it's so easy to understand.

[\[00:35:05\]](#transcript-00-35-05-545) But this is why, agree, and this is why the Lord and his economy has set it up like where we need the church and we need preachers and teachers and all these things, because I've had a number of

[\[00:35:15\]](#transcript-00-35-15-546) conversations with people.

[\[00:35:16\]](#transcript-00-35-16-547) I'm only three sermons into Exodus, but like it's sweet the conversations you have at the back door about the gospel.

[\[00:35:23\]](#transcript-00-35-23-548) And people are just like, man, this is bomb.

[\[00:35:25\]](#transcript-00-35-25-549) Like, we're getting Jesus and gospel from Exodus, this is like blowing my brain up in every good way.

[\[00:35:30\]](#transcript-00-35-30-550) And I'm just so full of joy and hope and peace.

[\[00:35:32\]](#transcript-00-35-32-551) And man, the Old Testament is just coming to life in a way that never did before.

[\[00:35:35\]](#transcript-00-35-35-552) That's all wonderful.

[\[00:35:37\]](#transcript-00-35-37-553) But, like, this is part of what we're saying is, we all, you and me included, Jon, I mean, we have needed to be shown this.

[\[00:35:45\]](#transcript-00-35-45-554) And we need to be taught how to read the Old Testament this way.

[\[00:35:49\]](#transcript-00-35-49-555) And when you have somebody that can plainly break it down and lay it out for you, it can become something where it's like, yeah, okay, I get it.

[\[00:35:55\]](#transcript-00-35-55-556) I see it.

[\[00:35:56\]](#transcript-00-35-56-557) And now I'm able to better engage it.

[\[00:35:59\]](#transcript-00-35-59-558) When I realize that God gives us in the Old Testament effectively, He gives us history, He gives us writings, and then He gives us his commentary on the history and the prophets.

[\[00:36:08\]](#transcript-00-36-08-559) But then, when we realize that this is all about redemption, it's all ultimately, you know, and even in revealing God's law, he's doing that for good and holy and redemptive purposes when it comes to his people.

[\[00:36:19\]](#transcript-00-36-19-560) And he institutes all kinds of ceremonial laws that point us to Christ and the work that he would come and do.

[\[00:36:26\]](#transcript-00-36-26-561) And there's all these things.

[\[00:36:28\]](#transcript-00-36-28-562) And then, I mean, I loved, I mean, some of my favorite sermon series that I've ever preached are the minor prophets, like just to see how the Lord is working and all these dynamics are at play, and how

[\[00:36:38\]](#transcript-00-36-38-563) He uses even great nations in the history of the world to accomplish all of His purposes of redemption for His people.

[\[00:36:43\]](#transcript-00-36-43-564) I mean, it's remarkable.

[\[00:36:45\]](#transcript-00-36-45-565) But yeah, dude, I mean, it's still, we need to be taught this.

[\[00:36:49\]](#transcript-00-36-49-566) And when we are, it does pop and things come to life.

[\[00:36:53\]](#transcript-00-36-53-567) Yeah, go ahead.

[\[00:36:53\]](#transcript-00-36-53-568) And then I might.

[\[00:36:55\]](#transcript-00-36-55-569) Yeah, I've got one last statement.

[\[00:36:56\]](#transcript-00-36-56-570) I'll throw it over to you and then we'll close it down.

[\[00:36:58\]](#transcript-00-36-58-571) I believe you should read the Old Testament answering this question: Can God be trusted?

[\[00:37:04\]](#transcript-00-37-04-572) That's what it's written for.

[\[00:37:06\]](#transcript-00-37-06-573) Can He be trusted?

[\[00:37:07\]](#transcript-00-37-07-574) Does He keep His promises?

[\[00:37:09\]](#transcript-00-37-09-575) And the answer to that is yes.

[\[00:37:11\]](#transcript-00-37-11-576) Because then, if he can be trusted, everything he has said, therefore, we should believe without exception.

[\[00:37:17\]](#transcript-00-37-17-577) So, read your Bible that way.

[\[00:37:19\]](#transcript-00-37-19-578) Can he be trusted?

[\[00:37:21\]](#transcript-00-37-21-579) The other question that I might put alongside that is Genesis 3:15.

[\[00:37:26\]](#transcript-00-37-26-580) Who is this promised seed?

[\[00:37:27\]](#transcript-00-37-27-581) That's right.

[\[00:37:28\]](#transcript-00-37-28-582) You know, that's because he made the promise, it's coming.

[\[00:37:30\]](#transcript-00-37-30-583) Exactly.

[\[00:37:31\]](#transcript-00-37-31-584) You know, can he throw from the grave?

[\[00:37:33\]](#transcript-00-37-33-585) that's that's that's the back office.

[\[00:37:34\]](#transcript-00-37-34-586) It's Like, he can be trusted.

[\[00:37:36\]](#transcript-00-37-36-587) Who is this promised redeemer?

[\[00:37:38\]](#transcript-00-37-38-588) And the Old Testament is getting us there, man.

[\[00:37:41\]](#transcript-00-37-41-589) And man, it's glorious when you see that God has not changed.

[\[00:37:45\]](#transcript-00-37-45-590) The gospel has always been there.

[\[00:37:47\]](#transcript-00-37-47-591) Jesus has always been present and personally involved with his people as a redeemer.

[\[00:37:52\]](#transcript-00-37-52-592) And gosh, it's encouraging.

[\[00:37:54\]](#transcript-00-37-54-593) So don't ever go back to the Old Testament.

[\[00:37:56\]](#transcript-00-37-56-594) I mean, listen to good teaching, learn.

[\[00:37:58\]](#transcript-00-37-58-595) Don't go back to the Old Testament with some of those bad frameworks that we talked about at the beginning.

[\[00:38:02\]](#transcript-00-38-02-596) I got an illustration for you.

[\[00:38:04\]](#transcript-00-38-04-597) Read it looking for Christ in every good way.

[\[00:38:07\]](#transcript-00-38-07-598) You know, a movie I've seen the end of, but never like, I don't have an appreciation for the movie like other people do, but I've seen the end of the movie probably a hundred times, but never seen the

[\[00:38:14\]](#transcript-00-38-14-599) actual movie is Braveheart.

[\[00:38:16\]](#transcript-00-38-16-600) I've seen that scene, right?

[\[00:38:18\]](#transcript-00-38-18-601) I know, I've never seen it.

[\[00:38:20\]](#transcript-00-38-20-602) I know, I know.

[\[00:38:20\]](#transcript-00-38-20-603) It's so bad.

[\[00:38:21\]](#transcript-00-38-21-604) But what's interesting is your response right there, dude, because the beginning of the movie is what makes Seth so great.

[\[00:38:30\]](#transcript-00-38-30-605) But the end is pretty, it's pretty motivated.

[\[00:38:32\]](#transcript-00-38-32-606) Oh, the end.

[\[00:38:32\]](#transcript-00-38-32-607) But I don't really know what's going on.

[\[00:38:34\]](#transcript-00-38-34-608) You know, it's just more like, oh, like, that's a really good speech.

[\[00:38:36\]](#transcript-00-38-36-609) Dude, I almost last week for our podcast last week, we were talking about freedom, I almost did freedom.

[\[00:38:40\]](#transcript-00-38-40-610) I almost did it.

[\[00:38:41\]](#transcript-00-38-41-611) I was like, anyway.

[\[00:38:43\]](#transcript-00-38-43-612) But my point is, we get to the New Testament often.

[\[00:38:45\]](#transcript-00-38-45-613) We're like, wow, this is really great what Jesus has done.

[\[00:38:48\]](#transcript-00-38-48-614) And we're over here going, bro, no, no, no, you got to go back to the beginning, dude.

[\[00:38:52\]](#transcript-00-38-52-615) You don't understand everything you missed.

[\[00:38:55\]](#transcript-00-38-55-616) It's in full color.

[\[00:38:56\]](#transcript-00-38-56-617) It's got some narrative.

[\[00:38:58\]](#transcript-00-38-58-618) It's got backstory.

[\[00:39:00\]](#transcript-00-39-00-619) And this is why Jesus says: you search the scriptures thinking that in them you find eternal life, and it is they that bear witness about me.

[\[00:39:08\]](#transcript-00-39-08-620) Which is eternal life.

[\[00:39:09\]](#transcript-00-39-09-621) That's right.

[\[00:39:10\]](#transcript-00-39-10-622) I am the eternal life.

[\[00:39:11\]](#transcript-00-39-11-623) It's so good.

[\[00:39:12\]](#transcript-00-39-12-624) It's so good.

[\[00:39:13\]](#transcript-00-39-13-625) All right, Justin.

[\[00:39:14\]](#transcript-00-39-14-626) Well, we nerded out enough.

[\[00:39:15\]](#transcript-00-39-15-627) We got to go.

[\[00:39:16\]](#transcript-00-39-16-628) But thank you for listening.

[\[00:39:17\]](#transcript-00-39-17-629) I pray this is encouraging to you.

[\[00:39:19\]](#transcript-00-39-19-630) Don't be discouraged.

[\[00:39:21\]](#transcript-00-39-21-631) Keep engaging in God's word.

[\[00:39:22\]](#transcript-00-39-22-632) Look for Christ in all of scripture.

[\[00:39:24\]](#transcript-00-39-24-633) And I don't mean under the rock where, you know, there's some kind of a, but he is the point of the story.

[\[00:39:29\]](#transcript-00-39-29-634) It's building towards him.

[\[00:39:31\]](#transcript-00-39-31-635) While we wait, we thus hope.

[\[00:39:33\]](#transcript-00-39-33-636) So, my encouragement to you is be in a good church that's preaching to you the gospel where you receive the supernatural nature of the word and sacrament and prayer and fellowship.

[\[00:39:42\]](#transcript-00-39-42-637) Speaking of Justin, we totally could have announced this at the beginning.

[\[00:39:46\]](#transcript-00-39-46-638) I forgot, but GRN registration, our conference is open and ready.

[\[00:39:53\]](#transcript-00-39-53-639) And you're going to want to come this year because we are talking about the means of grace, the supernatural nature of fellowship.

[\[00:40:01\]](#transcript-00-40-01-640) That's right, reclaiming the means of grace, where myself, Justin, and I are going to be, all three of us, myself, Justin, and I

[\[00:40:09\]](#transcript-00-40-09-641) are going to be lecturing and preaching on the supernatural nature of the ordinary means of grace?

[\[00:40:14\]](#transcript-00-40-14-642) And you're going to want to be there for that.

[\[00:40:16\]](#transcript-00-40-16-643) So it's a suggested donation of $20.

[\[00:40:18\]](#transcript-00-40-18-644) That's it.

[\[00:40:19\]](#transcript-00-40-19-645) It's three days or two days, full two days of conferencing together in Nashville.

[\[00:40:24\]](#transcript-00-40-24-646) So go to theocast.org.

[\[00:40:26\]](#transcript-00-40-26-647) We have a link there for you.

[\[00:40:28\]](#transcript-00-40-28-648) We'll see you next week.

[\[00:40:29\]](#transcript-00-40-29-649) Hey, everyone.

[\[00:40:29\]](#transcript-00-40-29-650) Before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you.

[\[00:40:32\]](#transcript-00-40-32-651) And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it.

[\[00:40:36\]](#transcript-00-40-36-652) But we also need your support, and it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

[\[00:40:42\]](#transcript-00-40-42-653) So, the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.

---

### What Happened to Freedom in the Gospel?

*Published: June 12, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-happened-to-freedom-in-the-gospel*
*Tags: Freedom, Gospel*

Jesus said that those whom the Son sets free are free indeed. But maybe you're listening to this podcast and thinking, "I don't really feel free." There may be reasons for that. The gospel is marvelous and wonderful, and it has many facets. At times, certain aspects aren't discussed as much. The forgiveness of sins, absolution from guilt, and the imputation of Christ's righteousness are wonderful truths. Additionally, we have been set free from the kingdom of darkness and from the evil one. Today on the podcast, Jon and Justin have a conversation about that freedom and how it is an essential part of the gospel message.

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https://youtu.be/C25mCKC1BBM

---

### Can Christians Struggle with PTSD? (w/ 1517)

*Published: June 5, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/can-christians-struggle-with-ptsd-w-1517*
*Tags: Anxiety, Depression, Mental Illness, PTSD*

Recently, Christian social media has been ablaze with the topic of mental illness and whether or not it is a real thing. In particular, diagnoses such as ADHD, PTSD, and OCD. We thought we would lend our voices to this discussion from a theological lens, analyzing the implications of the fall of Adam, a world of suffering, and compassion for our fellow man. For today’s discussion, Jon and Justin are joined by Scott Keith and Chad Bird of 1517! We hope and pray you find this conversation encouraging!

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https://youtu.be/PLn9DlJHFRk

---

### A Conversation Between Baptists and Anglicans

*Published: May 29, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/a-conversation-between-baptists-and-anglicans*
*Tags: Anglican, theology*

What do Baptists and Anglicans have in common? Jon and Justin recently had the opportunity to be on the Doth Protest podcast with our friends James and Drew, who are Anglican. We discussed the Reformation, our backgrounds, what we believe, and what we have in common. In particular, the emphasis of the podcast centered around Jesus, God's grace, and the sufficiency of our Savior. We were encouraged by the conversation, and we trust that you will be too.

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https://youtu.be/-IhvdnFLLuc

---

### "Where Are You, God?"

*Published: May 22, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/where-are-you-god*
*Tags: hope, Struggling, suffering*

Exhausted? Beat up? Suffering? Where are you, God? Why is this happening? Why can't I hear you? Why can't I feel your presence? For those who have these feelings and are exhausted, just needing a glimmer of hope, Justin and Jon have something for you today. We want to point you to Christ and His gospel.

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https://youtu.be/oIApaRJwR8w

---

### Antinomianism (w/ The Pactum)

*Published: May 15, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/antinomianism-w-the-pactum*
*Tags: Antinomianism*

What is antinomianism? Are Jon and Justin, here at Theocast, antinomian? What about the law and the Christian life? Does the law have a place in the life of the believer? What about the difference between lordship salvation and antinomianism? Is it one or the other? Recently, Jon and Justin had an opportunity to discuss these topics—the uses of the law, union with Christ, and many other good subjects—with our friends over at The Pactum, Pat Abendroth and Mike Grimes. We hope this episode clarifies these issues for you and encourages you in your Christian life.

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https://youtu.be/jg\_K3YUtU4M

---

### Anxiety and the Gospel

*Published: May 8, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/anxiety-and-the-gospel*
*Tags: Anxiety, Depression, hope*

For those of us who are feeling anxious, depressed, dark, and discouraged, this is a conversation for you. How do we take what we feel and put it in the light of the gospel and the objective reality outside of ourselves? How do our feelings tend to adjust and change towards the truth of the gospel? We pray you find this conversation encouraging!

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https://youtu.be/xiwIUNqWyjw

---

### Law, Gospel, and Jesus (w/ The Pactum)

*Published: May 1, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/law-gospel-and-jesus-w-the-pactum*
*Tags: law gospel distinction*

It has been said that Jesus is the greatest teacher of the law. Many would come to him and say, 'How can we enter into your kingdom?' We assume Jesus would give them the gospel. But if you read these passages, it sounds like law because he tells them to obey the law and live. Today's episode is a discussion about the law-gospel distinction with our good friend Pat Abendroth from The Pactum. We tackle a lot of the hard passages in both the Old and New Testament.

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https://youtu.be/bfxNUuwZNoM

---

### What Does It Mean to Walk by the Spirit?

*Published: April 24, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-does-it-mean-to-walk-by-the-spirit*
*Tags: Obedience, Sanctification, Walk by the spirit*

Do you ever wonder what it means to walk by the spirit? It's a phrase found in several places in the New Testament. If you asked ten different Christians what it means to walk by the spirit, you'd likely get ten different answers. But today on the pod, Jon and Justin are going to take a swing at answering that question. We're going to explore this concept and offer our perspectives. Our answers might surprise you.

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https://youtu.be/jzZNhyDBhZ4

---

### Saved by Works? (w/ The Pactum)

*Published: April 17, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/saved-by-works-w-the-pactum*
*Tags: Active Obedience of Christ, Good Works, Obedience, Works*

Are we saved by works? The answer to this question might astonish you. In fact, we are saved by works! The real question is, whose works save us? Ours? Or someone else’s? In today’s episode, Jon, Justin, and our friend Pat Abendroth from The Pactum will be discussing the active obedience of Christ, a vital biblical doctrine that helps sinners see Jesus better. We pray you will find this conversation informative and encouraging.

[Pat’s new book! _The Active Obedience of Christ_](https://a.co/d/eBckeVm)  
  
[The Pactum](https://www.thepactum.org/)  
  
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https://youtu.be/4NUJS53PZTc

---

### Why We're Not Antinomian

*Published: April 10, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-were-not-antinomian*
*Tags: Antinomian, Antinomianism*

Emphasizing grace, grace boys, antinomianism, the law, preaching, harsh - these are all words that seem to be circulating widely on the internet. We wanted to address this topic. First and foremost, what is antinomianism? Is preaching Christ from all of Scripture, Christ-centered preaching, generally considered antinomian? Moreover, why is it that Reformed theology, and Theocast, is wrongly considered antinomian? We'll explain this by examining the uses of the law and church discipline.

[Join the Theocast Community!](https://www.theocastcommunity.org)

[Jon’s Course: Saint, Sinner, and the Supernatural](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/saint-sinner-and-the-supernatural)

[Justin’s Course: Law and Gospel Distinction](https://www.theocastcommunity.org/c/law-and-gospel-distinction)  
  
[Our episode on Romans 7](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/why-you-cant-stop-sinning/)  
  
[COVENANT Conference](https://covbap.churchcenter.com/registrations/events/1931256)  
  
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https://youtu.be/vBoNVVlyX7c

---

### The Baptism Debate

*Published: April 3, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-baptism-debate*
*Tags: Baptism, baptist, Covenant Theology, Presbyterians*

The baptism debate. Typically, when we hear this, we cringe because it's not really done well; there are a lot of strawmen. We don't represent each other's side well, and it becomes heated and emotional. We don't want to do that today. We want to talk about the differences and where they stand biblically, and then why we would hold to a position known as the credo-baptist position: the 1689 Baptist view of baptism. Most of all, we pray that you're informed and encouraged. We love our brothers who are paedo-baptists, and we hope that comes out in this podcast.

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[Sam Renihan’s book, _The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant & His Kingdom_](https://a.co/d/bToBUI4)

[Jewett’s book, _Infant Baptist and the Covenant of Grace_](https://a.co/d/0SRr3X3)

[VanDorn’s book, _Waters of Creation_](https://a.co/d/1v3are6)

[Nettles’s Article, _Baptists and the Ordinances_](https://www.modernreformation.org/resources/articles/baptists-and-the-ordinances)

[Our “Remember Your Baptism” episode](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/remember-your-baptism-2/)

[COVENANT Conference](https://covbap.churchcenter.com/registrations/events/1931256)

https://youtu.be/q\_AT5WR0Y74

---

### Why We're Not Presbyterian

*Published: March 27, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-were-not-presbyterian*
*Tags: baptist, Covenant Theology, Presbyterians*

Have you ever wondered what the differences are between a confessional Baptist position on covenant theology and a confessional Presbyterian position? (We know you have--because you’ve asked us.) Jon and Justin talk about the differences today. It really all comes down to how one understands the covenant of grace to be revealed and then established. We hope this conversation brings some clarity for you!

[Sam Renihan’s book, _The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant & His Kingdom_](https://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Christ-His-Covenant-Kingdom/dp/1943539154)

[1689 Federalism Website](http://1689federalism.com/)

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[COVENANT Conference](https://covbap.churchcenter.com/registrations/events/1931256)

https://youtu.be/\_tW1Z3\_qa\_M

---

### Are Baptists Reformed?

*Published: March 20, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/are-baptists-reformed*
*Tags: baptist, Covenant Theology, Presbyterians*

In today’s episode, Jon and Justin have a conversation about the Reformation and the streams that flowed out of it pertaining to covenant theology. While there are disagreements amongst and between various traditions, Presbyterians, the Reformed, and confessional Baptists agree on a lot! This discussion covers some history, as well as the significant points of agreement. Let’s make Reformed catholicity a thing!

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[More episodes on Covenant Theology](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/topics-index/)  
  
https://youtu.be/wTc2iUoEw48

---

### Covenant Theology VS Dispensationalism

*Published: March 13, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/covenant-theology-vs-dispensationalism*
*Tags: Covenant Theology, Dispensationalism*

What are the major differences between covenant theology and dispensationalism? That’s a question we get a lot. Jon and Justin sit down to discuss the differences under three main headings: Christ in all of Scripture, law/gospel distinction, and the covenant of works (active obedience of Christ).

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https://youtu.be/wxlE-jAXExQ

---

### The Power of the Gospel (w/ Chris Gordon)

*Published: March 6, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-power-of-the-gospel-w-chris-gordon*
*Tags: Gospel, Power of the Gospel*

Paul declares to the church, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God." He urges us not to feel ashamed because the gospel embodies a power that transcends our universe – God's power. This concept often perplexes modern Christians. How can mere words encapsulate God's power? This episode delves into this question, exploring how we can embrace the gospel's benefits. Essentially, Paul emphasizes that while the world may ridicule it, Christians recognize the gospel as God's power for their lives.

[ABOUNDING GRACE RADIO](https://www.agradio.org/)  
  
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https://youtu.be/rgk0ZqXuRLw

---

### How to Feel Christ's Love

*Published: February 28, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-to-feel-christs-love*
*Tags: God's Love*

Here is the reality for Christians: the one we love the most is the one we’ve never seen. There are times we have a hard time comprehending what God is like. We have a hard time feeling his love for us. And so, God can feel distant from us. It is hard for us to feel safe approaching him. Jon and Justin talk about our relationships with Jesus, his love for us, how he is with his people, seeing him in the Word of God and more in today’s episode.

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https://youtu.be/tAvpSvJkAgY

---

### He Gets Us

*Published: February 21, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/he-gets-us*
*Tags: Condoning Sin, Liberalism, Sin, Wokeness*

Many of you watched the Super Bowl and saw the “He Gets Us” ad. Many of you are aware of the controversy surrounding Alistair Begg in recent weeks. There is a lot of concern amongst Christians about wokeness and liberalism and condoning sin. In today’s episode, Jon and Justin have a conversation about our call to love others--even those outside the church. Does showing compassion to an unbeliever who is engaging in sin mean we are condoning that sin? What does it mean to be salt and light and the aroma of Christ? What about speaking the truth of the law? What about sharing the gospel?

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https://youtu.be/IP69oBFHXbw

---

### Be Honest... Are You Scared of Jesus Coming Back? (w/ Chris Gordon)

*Published: February 14, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/be-honest-are-you-scared-of-jesus-coming-back-w-chris-gordon*
*Tags: End Times, Eschatology, Fear, Second Coming*

Are you afraid of the second coming of Jesus? You might have been taught a fearful eschatology. The book of Revelation should not be a scary thing for the Christian. Instead, we should find ourselves encouraged and our hope strengthened by our study of it. Join Jon and Justin in a conversation with Rev. Chris Gordon from Abounding Grace Radio in this podcast from the January 2024 Theocast/AG Radio Conference, "Suffering & The Hope of Christ's Return."

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https://youtu.be/uAGpBewAg-g

---

### Why Doctrine Can Feel Cold

*Published: February 7, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-doctrine-can-feel-cold*
*Tags: Doctrine, God's Love, theology*

Do you ever feel like you know a lot about Jesus--but you can’t remember the last time you felt that he loves you? Has doctrine ever felt cold to you? Have you ever been tempted to pit doctrine and experience against each other? If you answered “yes” to any of those questions, today’s podcast is for you. Jon and Justin have a conversation about Jesus and his love for us. The guys make an effort to pull us into God’s story of redemption and into the way Christ loves us.

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https://youtu.be/leOO0YRvwEw

---

### The Burden of Bible Reading

*Published: January 31, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-burden-of-bible-reading*
*Tags: Bible Reading, Pietism*

For many people, reading the Bible can feel like a burden. It seems that the whole conversation around Bible reading is riddled with guilt and shame. It shouldn’t be that way. It is good that we would know and love the Word of God! It is important that we, as Christians, be regularly engaging with the Word. That said, there are a number of ways that we can do that. Jon and Justin consider how we are called to know, love, and obey the Word in today’s episode.

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https://youtu.be/QFo5-Dn\_pik

---

### Satan, Did You Know?

*Published: January 24, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/satan-did-you-know*
*Tags: Satan*

Every year around Christmastime, Christians love to argue about the song “Mary, Did You Know?” That’s another conversation for another day. (Mary did know some things, but she didn’t know everything.) A more significant question is, “Satan, did you know?” Did you know that Christ was bruising your head at the cross? How much did Satan know of the gospel?

Jon and Justin talk about the victory of Christ over Satan in today’s episode.  
  
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https://youtu.be/WQP0AweEgPk

---

### Law, Gospel, and Sanctification (w/ The Baptist Broadcast)

*Published: January 17, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/law-gospel-and-sanctification-w-the-baptist-broadcast*
*Tags: Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction, Sanctification*

When you assess your life and your sanctification, do you conclude that there’s no way you could be God’s child? If so, it is possible that the categories of the law and the gospel have not been clearly explained for you. In today’s episode, Jon and Justin have a conversation with Josh Sommer (host of The Baptist Broadcast) about the law/gospel distinction and sanctification.

[The Baptist Broadcast](https://thebaptistbroadcast.com/)  
  
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https://youtu.be/yoDRiIddOVg

---

### How to Repent of Sin

*Published: January 10, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-to-repent-of-sin*
*Tags: Biblical Repentance, repent, Repentance, Sin*

Perfect love casts our fear. And certainly, the love of God for us is perfect. Yet, fear reigns often--in our hearts before God and even in our relationships with others in the church.

Here’s the thing, fear is actually a hindrance to repentance. Are you having a hard time repenting? The answer is not fear and dread. The answer is to lean into the love of God for us. United to Christ, trusting his righteousness, we walk by the Spirit. And there is freedom unto repentance.  
  
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https://youtu.be/NfqMnvior84

---

### How to Lose Friends and Alienate People!

*Published: January 3, 2024 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-to-lose-friends-and-alienate-people*
*Tags: Disagreement, how to disagree, theology*

Happy New Year from us here at Theocast! We assume that you might’ve had some difficult conversations over the holidays about Jesus or about matters of theology and the Christian life. In light of that, how should we approach disagreement--amongst our family and friends, or even in our churches? (Hint: patience, gentleness, and love are generally useful.)

We hope this conversation is a help to you as you think about engaging others around you.  
  
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https://youtu.be/PobKXeFQAPY

---

### How Then Shall We Live?

*Published: December 13, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-then-shall-we-live*
*Tags: Christian Life, Kingdom of God*

It matters how we live as Christians.

In light of Jesus--because he has saved us and because he loves us--how do we live our lives? What is our purpose? What is our mission? Why do we pursue obedience and holiness? Does God have a plan for our lives?  
  
Jon and Justin talk about all of this in today’s episode. We hope it encourages and motivates you to live for the sake of the kingdom of Christ.  
  
Book: [Gospel and Kingdom](https://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Kingdom-Graeme-Goldsworthy/dp/184227791X) \- Graeme Goldsworthy  
  
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https://youtu.be/hwF5X0ADIG0

---

### Concerns About Obedience?

*Published: December 6, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/concerns-about-obedience*
*Tags: Obedience*

Many people raise sincere, well-intentioned concerns toward us here at Theocast--and toward other confessional Reformed believers--that perhaps we don’t talk enough about obedience. Or that there isn’t enough application of Scripture being done, as it pertains to our personal conduct and holiness. How would Jon and Justin respond to these concerns? The guys have that conversation in today’s episode.

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https://youtu.be/Jkj3WZiPW\_8

---

### Train Wrecks Welcomed

*Published: November 29, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/train-wrecks-welcomed*
*Tags: Friend of Sinners, Gospel*

Fairly regularly, we see posts or correspondence discouraging people from listening to Theocast because this podcast attracts those whose lives are shipwrecked. From our perspective, we are happy to receive such a compliment. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. He came to save sinners. He came for the weak and frail. He came for those who were weighed down by guilt and shame. This is the gospel. And, here’s the thing: it is anything but the celebration and condoning of sin.

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https://youtu.be/oG94Fl8k07E

---

### The Meat of the Word IS NOT About Your Obedience

*Published: November 15, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-meat-of-the-word-is-not-about-your-obedience*
*Tags: Holiness, Meat of the Word, Obedience*

If you think the “meat of the word” is about our obedience and what we do, this episode is for you. Jon and Justin explain how holiness and obedience is a fruit of our growth in Christ--but how to eat the meat of the word is to grow in our understanding of the gospel of Christ, our union with Christ, the mystery of Christ, and even of the local church.

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https://youtu.be/IybL55IKXlQ?si=6cuSnEBXdBQJGGth

---

### The Clarity of the Gospel (w/ Kelsi Klembara of 1517)

*Published: November 8, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-clarity-of-the-gospel-w-kelsi-klembara-of-1517*
*Tags: Gospel*

In this episode, Jon and Justin sit down with Kelsi Klembara of 1517 (host of “Outside Ourselves”). The guys talk personally about their own experiences in the church and how they came to grow in their understanding of Christ and the gospel. After that, the conversation centers on the clarity of the gospel but covers a number of topics, including trends in the contemporary church, half-gospels, the sacraments, and what’s going on with people in our generation.

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https://youtu.be/X6Jvx0BCcYM

---

### Hope in the Midst of Hell

*Published: November 1, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/hope-in-the-midst-of-hell*
*Tags: hope, hopelessness, Struggling*

Life under the sun is often brutally hard. We live in a world where we bury our children. Only an insane person would look around and say that everything is as it should be. So, what hope do we have? The hope is not for anything in this life or in this world. The hope is in the life--and the world--to come. Jon and Justin have a very personal and pastoral conversation about hope in the midst of heartbreak and pain. Jesus has promised us that he has gone to prepare a place for us and that he will bring us to be with him where he is. We take him at his word.

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https://youtu.be/vr5eTfEXdQU

---

### Saints Who Still Sin

*Published: October 25, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/saints-who-still-sin*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: saint and sinner, Sin*

There are many believers who think that the longer they are Christians, the less they will sin. More than that, the battle against sin will get easier. But, if we’re honest, we all know sin remains--and that the battle rages on. Christians are, at the same time, saints and sinners. Today’s episode is a conversation amongst four pastors about how understanding the saint/sinner reality informs pastoral ministry, fosters real sanctification, and produces honesty and compassion in the church.

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https://youtu.be/j4ygv9HjX9I 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:06\]](#transcript-00-00-06-1) Hi, this is Jon.

[\[00:00:07\]](#transcript-00-00-07-2) Today on Theocast, we're going to talk about the struggle that everyone has.

[\[00:00:11\]](#transcript-00-00-11-3) I know I'm a Christian, Christ, by the power of the Spirit, lives within me, and yet I keep sinning.

[\[00:00:17\]](#transcript-00-00-17-4) The struggle between the flesh and the spirit.

[\[00:00:20\]](#transcript-00-00-20-5) You may have heard it this way: saint and sinner at the same time.

[\[00:00:24\]](#transcript-00-00-24-6) We want to speak into this because it's the reality of everyone, and yet at times we feel like the sinner wins, and the saint is helpless and hopeless.

[\[00:00:33\]](#transcript-00-00-33-7) We want to speak into that.

[\[00:00:34\]](#transcript-00-00-34-8) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:35\]](#transcript-00-00-35-9) If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word.

[\[00:00:38\]](#transcript-00-00-38-10) It's called pietism.

[\[00:00:39\]](#transcript-00-00-39-11) Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy?

[\[00:00:45\]](#transcript-00-00-45-12) That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

[\[00:00:51\]](#transcript-00-00-51-13) It's dread versus joy, really.

[\[00:00:54\]](#transcript-00-00-54-14) That's pietism.

[\[00:00:55\]](#transcript-00-00-55-15) Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

[\[00:01:03\]](#transcript-00-01-03-16) And we have a little book for you.

[\[00:01:04\]](#transcript-00-01-04-17) It's free.

[\[00:01:05\]](#transcript-00-01-05-18) We want you to download it, and we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism, reformed theology, really, how it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ.

[\[00:01:16\]](#transcript-00-01-16-19) And when Jesus says, Come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like?

[\[00:01:20\]](#transcript-00-01-20-20) You can download it on our website.

[\[00:01:22\]](#transcript-00-01-22-21) Just go to theocast.org.

[\[00:01:32\]](#transcript-00-01-32-22) Welcome to Theocast, Encouraging Worry Pilgrims to Rest in Christ.

[\[00:01:36\]](#transcript-00-01-36-23) Conversations about the Christian life from a reformed, confessional, and pastoral perspective.

[\[00:01:41\]](#transcript-00-01-41-24) Those perspectives.

[\[00:01:42\]](#transcript-00-01-42-25) That's right.

[\[00:01:43\]](#transcript-00-01-43-26) We each week try to clarify the gospel and reclaim the purpose of the kingdom.

[\[00:01:47\]](#transcript-00-01-47-27) That's what we're here for today.

[\[00:01:49\]](#transcript-00-01-49-28) Your host, Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-29) And I'm Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-30) I'm the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:01:58\]](#transcript-00-01-58-31) And this is week two for you, but this is the second episode in one day.

[\[00:02:03\]](#transcript-00-02-03-32) We just finished one, and now we're on to the second one because we are actually together in Smyrna, Tennessee, which is just south of

[\[00:02:13\]](#transcript-00-02-13-33) Nashville, Tennessee.

[\[00:02:14\]](#transcript-00-02-14-34) And we mentioned this last week, so we won't go into details of it.

[\[00:02:18\]](#transcript-00-02-18-35) We just finished the GRN conference.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-36) Yeah.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-37) And we had a panel discussion after Patrick Crandall's amazing lecture on saint and sinner simultaneously.

[\[00:02:29\]](#transcript-00-02-29-38) It was, yeah, it was passionate, it was encouraging.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-39) Don't really want to tell you much about it because I really wants you to go listen to it, but you can do so on the Jaron website, or eventually it's not there yet, or you can go to the

[\[00:02:41\]](#transcript-00-02-41-40) community app, should be there as well.

[\[00:02:42\]](#transcript-00-02-42-41) Yeah, it's a great conversation.

[\[00:02:44\]](#transcript-00-02-44-42) It was very important for our peace before the Lord.

[\[00:02:48\]](#transcript-00-02-48-43) Yeah, really important for our lives in the local church, for our sanctification, living honestly and openly together, all of those things and more.

[\[00:02:56\]](#transcript-00-02-56-44) If you weren't, if you didn't listen to last week, this is a panel discussion with Charles Townsend, who's the pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Spencer, right?

[\[00:03:05\]](#transcript-00-03-05-45) Spencer Indiana.

[\[00:03:05\]](#transcript-00-03-05-46) Spencer, Indiana.

[\[00:03:06\]](#transcript-00-03-06-47) And then Patrick Crandall, who is the pastor of Covenant Grace Columbia.

[\[00:03:11\]](#transcript-00-03-11-48) And, boy, Patrick Crandall, that was weird.

[\[00:03:14\]](#transcript-00-03-14-49) We're strong, We're tired now.

[\[00:03:15\]](#transcript-00-03-15-50) Patrick, Crandall, and uh, which I have to just say this because it was funny.

[\[00:03:20\]](#transcript-00-03-20-51) Somebody uh said that everybody from his church are Crandallites.

[\[00:03:23\]](#transcript-00-03-23-52) That was funny.

[\[00:03:24\]](#transcript-00-03-24-53) Sounds too much like Campbellites for my money.

[\[00:03:26\]](#transcript-00-03-26-54) It was so funny, and then Justin and I.

[\[00:03:28\]](#transcript-00-03-28-55) So, this is a panel discussion, and uh, it's a very theocasty conversation, it is, it is, yeah.

[\[00:03:33\]](#transcript-00-03-33-56) It is, uh, it's a little echoey.

[\[00:03:34\]](#transcript-00-03-34-57) We're in a pretty, pretty large building, so but I think the content would be great, encouraging you.

[\[00:03:40\]](#transcript-00-03-40-58) if you're watching this on YouTube, there will be no video for this.

[\[00:03:43\]](#transcript-00-03-43-59) We apologize.

[\[00:03:45\]](#transcript-00-03-45-60) But I think you're going to enjoy the discussion.

[\[00:03:48\]](#transcript-00-03-48-61) I think so.

[\[00:03:48\]](#transcript-00-03-48-62) And we will be back with you next week with a regular episode.

[\[00:03:52\]](#transcript-00-03-52-63) Yep.

[\[00:03:53\]](#transcript-00-03-53-64) Thank you.

[\[00:03:54\]](#transcript-00-03-54-65) All right, folks, let's go ahead and find our seats as we get ready to grill everybody up here on this wonderful, just fantastic address on Center State.

[\[00:04:05\]](#transcript-00-04-05-66) So, again, thank you, Patrick, for that word.

[\[00:04:07\]](#transcript-00-04-07-67) It's fantastic.

[\[00:04:09\]](#transcript-00-04-09-68) We were just talking about this up there.

[\[00:04:11\]](#transcript-00-04-11-69) Only, I only really have, I was so engrossed in the message that towards the end I remembered I was supposed to come up with questions.

[\[00:04:17\]](#transcript-00-04-17-70) But really, only have two, 2.5 questions because I know all of us men have a lot to talk about here.

[\[00:04:24\]](#transcript-00-04-24-71) So, first of all, first question I want to ask specifically because of Grace Reform Network, all of you have seen the criteria and whatnot.

[\[00:04:32\]](#transcript-00-04-32-72) We make Romans 7 a significant issue for membership and a right understanding of Romans 7 and this idea of a sinner-saint reality.

[\[00:04:41\]](#transcript-00-04-41-73) So, gentlemen, just speak on the fact of why we felt that was so important, that we would add that to the criteria for being a member of this organization.

[\[00:04:53\]](#transcript-00-04-53-74) Anyway, that's what I've done.

[\[00:04:58\]](#transcript-00-04-58-75) We'll do that.

[\[00:04:59\]](#transcript-00-04-59-76) Part of the reason that we made Romans 7 an issue is that it is, like it has been in other eras of the church's history, it's becoming increasingly in vogue these days to see Romans 7 as written by

[\[00:05:14\]](#transcript-00-05-14-77) Paul in an unregenerate state.

[\[00:05:17\]](#transcript-00-05-17-78) And we wanted to drive a stake in the ground in the historical Reformed and Augustinian position that Paul is writing as a regenerate man in Romans 7.

[\[00:05:28\]](#transcript-00-05-28-79) So that's maybe the formal reason.

[\[00:05:31\]](#transcript-00-05-31-80) But then, in terms of materially, there are so many.

[\[00:05:36\]](#transcript-00-05-36-81) I think effectively, that's what we're going to be talking about now.

[\[00:05:39\]](#transcript-00-05-39-82) Because truer words have never been written than what is contained in Romans 7, 14 and following about the normative experience of the Christian.

[\[00:05:50\]](#transcript-00-05-50-83) This has so much to do with pastoral posture, which, brother, you, I think, gently and also in good and punchy ways made that clear.

[\[00:06:00\]](#transcript-00-06-00-84) We'll talk more about that, I know.

[\[00:06:02\]](#transcript-00-06-02-85) This has a lot to do with the culture of a local church and the compassion that sinners should have for one another and the watchfulness that we have over one another that is not heavy-handed but it is born

[\[00:06:15\]](#transcript-00-06-15-86) out of love and an understanding of our common predicament.

[\[00:06:21\]](#transcript-00-06-21-87) Like, brother, sister, I get it.

[\[00:06:23\]](#transcript-00-06-23-88) Like, I'm with you.

[\[00:06:25\]](#transcript-00-06-25-89) Right?

[\[00:06:26\]](#transcript-00-06-26-90) And at the end of the day, we all still sin.

[\[00:06:30\]](#transcript-00-06-30-91) It's like we were talking about yesterday: Heidelberg Catechism question 60.

[\[00:06:33\]](#transcript-00-06-33-92) It's not just that I've broken all of God's commands and never kept one, I'm still inclined toward all evil.

[\[00:06:40\]](#transcript-00-06-40-93) Right?

[\[00:06:41\]](#transcript-00-06-41-94) And so, what do you got for me?

[\[00:06:43\]](#transcript-00-06-43-95) If we can't, if we can't deal with that, then what are we doing?

[\[00:06:46\]](#transcript-00-06-46-96) I could say more, but I want you brothers to jump in.

[\[00:06:49\]](#transcript-00-06-49-97) Yeah, no, this is important because when you hold the distinctions, one side of the distinction creates rest, that's the saint side, and then the other creates dependence, that's the sinner's side, right?

[\[00:07:01\]](#transcript-00-07-01-98) So when we look to who we are in Christ, we can relax and rest because all righteousness is there.

[\[00:07:07\]](#transcript-00-07-07-99) And then when we look to the frailty of our flesh, that creates dependence.

[\[00:07:11\]](#transcript-00-07-11-100) And I love your idea of True, a true mature Christian is one who is in greater dependence, right?

[\[00:07:19\]](#transcript-00-07-19-101) So when you, when you remove one side of that, you do end up either with antinomies or despair.

[\[00:07:25\]](#transcript-00-07-25-102) There is no need for dependence, do whatever you want, or you're in despair because you can't seem to find rest, right?

[\[00:07:34\]](#transcript-00-07-34-103) So, this the duality of the nature.

[\[00:07:38\]](#transcript-00-07-38-104) What's interesting is that sometimes people don't catch this.

[\[00:07:40\]](#transcript-00-07-40-105) Paul describes this in Corinthians as a new kind of creature.

[\[00:07:44\]](#transcript-00-07-44-106) That's what he says.

[\[00:07:45\]](#transcript-00-07-45-107) He's like, there was the original, perfect Adam and Eve, then there's the fallen nature of all of humanity, and then there's this whole new subcategory of creatures who have God inside them.

[\[00:07:59\]](#transcript-00-07-59-108) They're templed in God.

[\[00:08:00\]](#transcript-00-08-00-109) So this is new for us.

[\[00:08:03\]](#transcript-00-08-03-110) And then he goes on to teach how a fallen creature who is embodied with spirit now looks and lives.

[\[00:08:16\]](#transcript-00-08-16-111) There's no other reason why it's connected to Romans 7.

[\[00:08:18\]](#transcript-00-08-18-112) Right.

[\[00:08:19\]](#transcript-00-08-19-113) There's no way that we can have peace before God if we don't have this understanding.

[\[00:08:24\]](#transcript-00-08-24-114) I don't think that's hyperbolic to say.

[\[00:08:27\]](#transcript-00-08-27-115) And it's important that we understand that, like Luther said, you know, the dead man, I mean, obviously, our old nature has been put to death, but the dead man floats, and we drag the corpse of the old man

[\[00:08:41\]](#transcript-00-08-41-116) around with us all the time.

[\[00:08:42\]](#transcript-00-08-42-117) We all know that's true.

[\[00:08:44\]](#transcript-00-08-44-118) We feel that burden.

[\[00:08:47\]](#transcript-00-08-47-119) And it's really important that we understand that the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit does not make the flesh holy.

[\[00:08:56\]](#transcript-00-08-56-120) I think that gets collapsed a lot of times in how Christians with the best of intentions talk about sanctification.

[\[00:09:02\]](#transcript-00-09-02-121) The old man is not sanctified.

[\[00:09:04\]](#transcript-00-09-04-122) The only thing we're ever told to do with that is put it off and live like who we are now.

[\[00:09:09\]](#transcript-00-09-09-123) It's our inner man that's being sanctified and transformed and conformed to the image of Christ.

[\[00:09:16\]](#transcript-00-09-16-124) And clarity on this is so critical for our peace and our assurance and our rest, which is then going to result in bearing fruit for the Lord.

[\[00:09:24\]](#transcript-00-09-24-125) Right?

[\[00:09:26\]](#transcript-00-09-26-126) And this is just to continue this on, because you've already mentioned this phrase, and just want to go back to that line that hurt so bad, but was so good, as far as we treat the ones wounded in

[\[00:09:38\]](#transcript-00-09-38-127) war as traitors.

[\[00:09:40\]](#transcript-00-09-40-128) And specifically, pastorally, instead of being shepherds, we become butchers.

[\[00:09:45\]](#transcript-00-09-45-129) So, how should this impact our, to use Justin's phrase, our pastoral posture, especially when you're dealing with people that

[\[00:09:56\]](#transcript-00-09-56-130) are in the midst of grievous sin, because we're all in the midst of sin at all times.

[\[00:10:01\]](#transcript-00-10-01-131) But what I'm talking about is when it really comes to the surface, there's a lot of unrepentant situations.

[\[00:10:05\]](#transcript-00-10-05-132) We're just dealing with the congregation as a whole.

[\[00:10:07\]](#transcript-00-10-07-133) Go ahead, whomever.

[\[00:10:11\]](#transcript-00-10-11-134) One of the things that we've been talking a lot about as a church lately is just the nature of sin, how it works, how it functions, and it works, it's duplicitous.

[\[00:10:21\]](#transcript-00-10-21-135) It works on lies and manipulation.

[\[00:10:24\]](#transcript-00-10-24-136) And one of the best things, sin thrives in the dark, right?

[\[00:10:29\]](#transcript-00-10-29-137) And so one of the ways that this happens is if you don't pastor, shepherd, or even if you're not a pastor, if you don't relate to people in this reality, and your expectation is this kind of over-realized eschatological

[\[00:10:45\]](#transcript-00-10-45-138) prosperity, spirituality, sort of thing is that now there's this expectation: like, okay, we don't sin.

[\[00:10:51\]](#transcript-00-10-51-139) I'm not a Christian, so I don't sin.

[\[00:10:53\]](#transcript-00-10-53-140) So that means when I do sin, I can't actually bring that out because then people aren't going to think I'm a Christian.

[\[00:10:58\]](#transcript-00-10-58-141) I'm not a saint.

[\[00:10:59\]](#transcript-00-10-59-142) So I've got to bury this.

[\[00:11:01\]](#transcript-00-11-01-143) And how are we helped with sin?

[\[00:11:04\]](#transcript-00-11-04-144) It's not by doing that.

[\[00:11:06\]](#transcript-00-11-06-145) We confess our sins, right?

[\[00:11:07\]](#transcript-00-11-07-146) Like when they are exposed to the light, their lies are laid bare.

[\[00:11:11\]](#transcript-00-11-11-147) When we confess to one another, we're able to preach Christ to one another.

[\[00:11:14\]](#transcript-00-11-14-148) That's how we find grace and help in our sin.

[\[00:11:17\]](#transcript-00-11-17-149) And so there's this very insidious shift, right?

[\[00:11:19\]](#transcript-00-11-19-150) If we can be convinced that we are not sinners, then we have to play at this, because it's not true.

[\[00:11:24\]](#transcript-00-11-24-151) We're going to still sin, but now we have to play the game, right?

[\[00:11:27\]](#transcript-00-11-27-152) We have to portray ourselves as not sinners, which keeps us from the help we need to actually deal with sin, right?

[\[00:11:35\]](#transcript-00-11-35-153) It actually hinders real sanctification.

[\[00:11:37\]](#transcript-00-11-37-154) Absolutely.

[\[00:11:38\]](#transcript-00-11-38-155) So it's hilarious that when you talk the ways that we do sometimes, the charge of antinomianism is brought up.

[\[00:11:45\]](#transcript-00-11-45-156) Because in reality, it's like, no, we are after real heart-level, like deep recesses of my soul sanctification, where in the church we understand where our righteousness comes from, that it's alien to us, like you were talking about today.

[\[00:12:02\]](#transcript-00-12-02-157) And that frees us to stare what you know our sin in the face, confess it, weep over it, grieve over it, and lock arms with the saints so that we might be sanctified.

[\[00:12:14\]](#transcript-00-12-14-158) And we've all seen this.

[\[00:12:15\]](#transcript-00-12-15-159) I mean, we could give testimonies in our own local churches of just astonishing confession of real deep sin and how the Lord has been so gracious to people.

[\[00:12:26\]](#transcript-00-12-26-160) And it's because of this freedom and this peace that exists in the church when these things are maintained, these doctrines are guarded, and the pastors lead in it, and the saints get it too.

[\[00:12:40\]](#transcript-00-12-40-161) And we live like this.

[\[00:12:42\]](#transcript-00-12-42-162) Yeah, I can remember when we started emphasizing this very early on in our church.

[\[00:12:48\]](#transcript-00-12-48-163) There was a concern about, well, man, if you do this, people are just going to get around each other and air their dirty laundry.

[\[00:12:53\]](#transcript-00-12-53-164) What you're telling me is, you don't want to hear about other people's problems.

[\[00:12:57\]](#transcript-00-12-57-165) Because dirty laundry just means sin.

[\[00:12:59\]](#transcript-00-12-59-166) Let's just not be, that's what you're talking about.

[\[00:13:02\]](#transcript-00-13-02-167) I got enough to deal with.

[\[00:13:03\]](#transcript-00-13-03-168) I don't deal with your issues.

[\[00:13:03\]](#transcript-00-13-03-169) So, when we get together, a men's group and a women's group, you know, let's just keep it simple.

[\[00:13:07\]](#transcript-00-13-07-170) Yeah, lie to him.

[\[00:13:08\]](#transcript-00-13-08-171) Yeah, right.

[\[00:13:11\]](#transcript-00-13-11-172) Where, when you give people the opportunity to come carrying burdens and saying, apparently, I have a problem because I can't offload this.

[\[00:13:23\]](#transcript-00-13-23-173) What does James say?

[\[00:13:24\]](#transcript-00-13-24-174) Confess your sins to one another.

[\[00:13:27\]](#transcript-00-13-27-175) What does Romans 15:1 say?

[\[00:13:29\]](#transcript-00-13-29-176) Those of you who have a strong have an obligation to deal with the failings of the weak.

[\[00:13:33\]](#transcript-00-13-33-177) What does Galatians 6 say, right?

[\[00:13:35\]](#transcript-00-13-35-178) Those of you who are spiritual should go to those who are trapped in sin and restore them with a spirit of gentleness and meekness.

[\[00:13:41\]](#transcript-00-13-41-179) The church is surrounded about those who are depending on Christ and those who are struggling in the flesh, and there's a symbiotic relationship that happens there, but churches don't allow people to be sinners.

[\[00:13:55\]](#transcript-00-13-55-180) You have to create a place where someone can open up and say, I am trapped.

[\[00:14:02\]](#transcript-00-14-02-181) Please help me.

[\[00:14:04\]](#transcript-00-14-04-182) Please come and give me something, right?

[\[00:14:06\]](#transcript-00-14-06-183) This is why he says, every day consider how to encourage one another, how to build one another up.

[\[00:14:12\]](#transcript-00-14-12-184) Why?

[\[00:14:13\]](#transcript-00-14-13-185) Because the hound of sin is at your door wanting to claw you to death.

[\[00:14:19\]](#transcript-00-14-19-186) And so the moment you allow someone to open up the darkest part of their heart, and you can see it on their face.

[\[00:14:28\]](#transcript-00-14-28-187) They're willing, they're trying to think, do I give them 10% or the whole thing?

[\[00:14:31\]](#transcript-00-14-31-188) Like, I don't know how much they're gonna.

[\[00:14:33\]](#transcript-00-14-33-189) And every, I know every one of you guys have had this moment where they're like, all right, Pastor, I'm about to shock you.

[\[00:14:38\]](#transcript-00-14-38-190) Like, that's not even possible.

[\[00:14:40\]](#transcript-00-14-40-191) Right?

[\[00:14:41\]](#transcript-00-14-41-192) Instead of recoiling in horror, you know, when they're sitting in the chair and won't even make eye contact because there's so much shame.

[\[00:14:50\]](#transcript-00-14-50-193) And the expectation is when I say this to my pastor, he's going to push back.

[\[00:14:56\]](#transcript-00-14-56-194) And instead, you lean in.

[\[00:14:58\]](#transcript-00-14-58-195) Amen.

[\[00:14:59\]](#transcript-00-14-59-196) Right?

[\[00:14:59\]](#transcript-00-14-59-197) That bears fruit.

[\[00:15:01\]](#transcript-00-15-01-198) I mean, even just a pastoral posture, how does this inform you as a preacher?

[\[00:15:06\]](#transcript-00-15-06-199) So, I've said this before, I mean, maybe on Theocast, but I'll say it here because I haven't said it this weekend, I don't believe, or this week.

[\[00:15:14\]](#transcript-00-15-14-200) That what I presume as a preacher, is that my people love the Lord and want to honor him and want to obey him and are grieved at the thought of offending him

[\[00:15:28\]](#transcript-00-15-28-201) and yet they battle mightily against the corruption of their flesh, and they are weak, and they lament their weakness.

[\[00:15:37\]](#transcript-00-15-37-202) And so I preach accordingly, but we also pastor accordingly, which means that the things that should characterize pastoral ministry, it's like you do need to shoot wolves sometimes, but that's that means legitimate wolves, right?

[\[00:15:52\]](#transcript-00-15-52-203) But our pastoral posture is one of patience and gentleness.

[\[00:15:57\]](#transcript-00-15-57-204) And we trust that that will bear fruit over the long haul.

[\[00:16:01\]](#transcript-00-16-01-205) And this doctrine drives that posture.

[\[00:16:04\]](#transcript-00-16-04-206) Yeah.

[\[00:16:04\]](#transcript-00-16-04-207) Wolves are proclaiming another gospel.

[\[00:16:07\]](#transcript-00-16-07-208) They're not just sinning.

[\[00:16:09\]](#transcript-00-16-09-209) Sheep are going to sin.

[\[00:16:11\]](#transcript-00-16-11-210) That's what we've been warned about.

[\[00:16:12\]](#transcript-00-16-12-211) Like, you're going to be bit by them, right?

[\[00:16:15\]](#transcript-00-16-15-212) Yeah.

[\[00:16:17\]](#transcript-00-16-17-213) Did you have something to add?

[\[00:16:18\]](#transcript-00-16-18-214) Yeah, I was just going to say, God gave us another tool for wolves.

[\[00:16:21\]](#transcript-00-16-21-215) It's called discipline.

[\[00:16:22\]](#transcript-00-16-22-216) Too many people are trying to church discipline from the pulpit, right?

[\[00:16:25\]](#transcript-00-16-25-217) Like the preaching of the gospel to the gathered church is not for church discipline.

[\[00:16:29\]](#transcript-00-16-29-218) He gave us another means of grace for those who falsely profess, like people preach not this way because they're afraid of false professors.

[\[00:16:38\]](#transcript-00-16-38-219) Exactly.

[\[00:16:38\]](#transcript-00-16-38-220) That sort of thing.

[\[00:16:39\]](#transcript-00-16-39-221) So, all the preaching is not care for these people who love Jesus, and you're patching up their wounds so they can go back out into this conflict.

[\[00:16:48\]](#transcript-00-16-48-222) What you're doing is you're trying to smoke out these one or two false people in there.

[\[00:16:52\]](#transcript-00-16-52-223) You're not letting the tares and the wheat grow up together, as Christ said.

[\[00:16:57\]](#transcript-00-16-57-224) But he gave us something for that.

[\[00:16:58\]](#transcript-00-16-58-225) It's discipline.

[\[00:16:59\]](#transcript-00-16-59-226) Right.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-227) Don't do church discipline from the pulpit.

[\[00:17:02\]](#transcript-00-17-02-228) That's not what it's for.

[\[00:17:03\]](#transcript-00-17-03-229) Yeah, the only kind of discipline you're doing from the pulpit is formative.

[\[00:17:06\]](#transcript-00-17-06-230) right.

[\[00:17:07\]](#transcript-00-17-07-231) But what we're talking about here is like the formal process of church discipline.

[\[00:17:11\]](#transcript-00-17-11-232) And in our context, I know we have three levels of church censure: admonishment, suspension from the table, excommunication.

[\[00:17:17\]](#transcript-00-17-17-233) We don't need to get in the nuts and bolts.

[\[00:17:19\]](#transcript-00-17-19-234) But this is relevant, what we're talking about right now.

[\[00:17:22\]](#transcript-00-17-22-235) How should our posture be with respect to even church discipline.

[\[00:17:26\]](#transcript-00-17-26-236) We should be patient.

[\[00:17:28\]](#transcript-00-17-28-237) We ought not be hasty, generally speaking.

[\[00:17:30\]](#transcript-00-17-30-238) Now, heinous sin, we can always make exceptions that prove the rule.

[\[00:17:33\]](#transcript-00-17-33-239) It's not what we're doing right now.

[\[00:17:34\]](#transcript-00-17-34-240) In a general sense, you're patient, you're gentle, you're clear, you do things in the light so that everybody understands what's going on.

[\[00:17:43\]](#transcript-00-17-43-241) And then, even when it comes to the point of excommunication, we should be plain that, what we are saying right now is not making a pronouncement that these people certainly are not Christians, but that we are saying that

[\[00:17:57\]](#transcript-00-17-57-242) you are living in obstinate, hard-hearted, stubborn, unrepentant sin that is dangerous for your soul.

[\[00:18:02\]](#transcript-00-18-02-243) And so, the loving thing to do, the tool that the Lord has given us, that is actually restorative in nature, that is a piece of how He keeps His people, is we are going to put you out that

[\[00:18:12\]](#transcript-00-18-12-244) you might be brought back to the fold.

[\[00:18:15\]](#transcript-00-18-15-245) Right?

[\[00:18:16\]](#transcript-00-18-16-246) Instead of saying

[\[00:18:18\]](#transcript-00-18-18-247) immediately somebody is in chapter five situation from 69, like you said, Baxlin, whatever term you want to use, I feel in my own past and in other contexts is we're too quick to say, they were never of us.

[\[00:18:31\]](#transcript-00-18-31-248) Which to me is almost that butchering kind of situation.

[\[00:18:34\]](#transcript-00-18-34-249) Instead of dealing with, right, you don't know, but instead of walking with them, like you talked about so well, it's easier to to just kick them out

[\[00:18:46\]](#transcript-00-18-46-250) to make it easier for everybody else instead of walking with the wounded.

[\[00:18:50\]](#transcript-00-18-50-251) Yeah, before moving on, this is why 5.5 in our confession is extreme.

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-252) If you haven't memorized this, you need to, right?

[\[00:19:00\]](#transcript-00-19-00-253) Do you understand that in scripture and in the confession, it doesn't put a timeline on that?

[\[00:19:07\]](#transcript-00-19-07-254) Like how long a Christian could wander.

[\[00:19:10\]](#transcript-00-19-10-255) Just, I want you to stop and think about that for a moment.

[\[00:19:12\]](#transcript-00-19-12-256) There is no timeline on that, which means that people can wander for a very long time.

[\[00:19:16\]](#transcript-00-19-16-257) Do you know what was almost a year before David got confronted?

[\[00:19:20\]](#transcript-00-19-20-258) It wasn't like, boom, boom, boom.

[\[00:19:22\]](#transcript-00-19-22-259) Oh, I got to repent.

[\[00:19:23\]](#transcript-00-19-23-260) It was a long time.

[\[00:19:24\]](#transcript-00-19-24-261) And then it took a really gnarly illustration for him to wake up.

[\[00:19:27\]](#transcript-00-19-27-262) You are the man.

[\[00:19:28\]](#transcript-00-19-28-263) This is you.

[\[00:19:29\]](#transcript-00-19-29-264) So, this, as a pastor and a shepherd, it's incumbent upon us to realize that this is a process that takes time, that you are depending on the Spirit to do His side.

[\[00:19:40\]](#transcript-00-19-40-265) We do our side, we administrate, we be gracious, we do the means that He's given us, and then we wait and pray and are ready to welcome back, right?

[\[00:19:50\]](#transcript-00-19-50-266) Because they're not the traitor.

[\[00:19:53\]](#transcript-00-19-53-267) What's interesting, I think, in this situation is that there are a lot of people who would agree with the saints-centered reality.

[\[00:20:01\]](#transcript-00-20-01-268) And so they'll say, Yeah, to the saints' side, we need to preach the gospel, but to the sinner side, we're going to come after them with the law.

[\[00:20:10\]](#transcript-00-20-10-269) Well, the hard part about that is Paul says, Did you not know that the kindness of God was meant to lead you to repentance?

[\[00:20:16\]](#transcript-00-20-16-270) I think it's fascinating in the great high priest in Hebrews, he doesn't point to the law as to why, with boldness, they run into the throne room of God.

[\[00:20:27\]](#transcript-00-20-27-271) What does he point to?

[\[00:20:28\]](#transcript-00-20-28-272) They're standing as a child.

[\[00:20:31\]](#transcript-00-20-31-273) He's your father.

[\[00:20:33\]](#transcript-00-20-33-274) Because of his affection, with boldness,

[\[00:20:37\]](#transcript-00-20-37-275) you don't run boldly to the law, do you?

[\[00:20:39\]](#transcript-00-20-39-276) Because the law is there to prove your failure, but you run towards a father that you know is waiting for you with what?

[\[00:20:46\]](#transcript-00-20-46-277) In a time of need, come to me with grace and mercy.

[\[00:20:50\]](#transcript-00-20-50-278) So, the preaching of the gospel is for the saint side and the sinner side because when you don't provide grace and mercy to a sinner, they don't want to repent.

[\[00:20:59\]](#transcript-00-20-59-279) I am speaking from example here.

[\[00:21:02\]](#transcript-00-21-02-280) We hide, we cover, we pretend.

[\[00:21:05\]](#transcript-00-21-05-281) We put coats of paint on it, right?

[\[00:21:08\]](#transcript-00-21-08-282) But what seeps through is the rottenness.

[\[00:21:11\]](#transcript-00-21-11-283) And so, when someone tells me preaching grace will only allow people to remain in their sin, I can't justify that with all of these other passages that say the opposite of this: that it's emphasizing that grace is what

[\[00:21:24\]](#transcript-00-21-24-284) leads us home, it's not what keeps us away from repentance, it actually draws us in.

[\[00:21:30\]](#transcript-00-21-30-285) And then, of course, Paul gets accused of being an antinomian and says, Well, then, let's just send all the more so we can see more grace.

[\[00:21:37\]](#transcript-00-21-37-286) He's like, No, you, you know, may it never be.

[\[00:21:40\]](#transcript-00-21-40-287) May it never be.

[\[00:21:40\]](#transcript-00-21-40-288) Hey, guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:21:46\]](#transcript-00-21-46-289) So, where do you go?

[\[00:21:47\]](#transcript-00-21-47-290) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

[\[00:21:51\]](#transcript-00-21-51-291) We have started something called the Theocast community.

[\[00:21:54\]](#transcript-00-21-54-292) We're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources there: past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:22:05\]](#transcript-00-22-05-293) You can go check it out.

[\[00:22:06\]](#transcript-00-22-06-294) The link is in the description below.

[\[00:22:08\]](#transcript-00-22-08-295) I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on how sometimes there are people in the reformed world who would agree saint-sinner, but somehow they think you've got to preach one way to the saint side and another way to the

[\[00:22:18\]](#transcript-00-22-18-296) center side.

[\[00:22:21\]](#transcript-00-22-21-297) Yeah, one of the things I think is important.

[\[00:22:23\]](#transcript-00-22-23-298) So we talk about like the three uses of the law.

[\[00:22:26\]](#transcript-00-22-26-299) And one of the things to remember is that we're not preaching the law three different ways.

[\[00:22:31\]](#transcript-00-22-31-300) These are three ways the Spirit uses the law.

[\[00:22:34\]](#transcript-00-22-34-301) Exactly.

[\[00:22:34\]](#transcript-00-22-34-302) Right?

[\[00:22:35\]](#transcript-00-22-35-303) And so Saint sinners need the law and the gospel.

[\[00:22:39\]](#transcript-00-22-39-304) They don't need it blended, and they don't need one or the other.

[\[00:22:41\]](#transcript-00-22-41-305) They need both because the Spirit uses the preaching of the law in those three ways, and he applies it to the hearts of the people who hear it and does the work that he's supposed to do with it,

[\[00:22:54\]](#transcript-00-22-54-306) right?

[\[00:22:55\]](#transcript-00-22-55-307) So, those who need to be convicted and driven to Christ, he does that through that.

[\[00:22:59\]](#transcript-00-22-59-308) When the third use, those who need guidance on what it looks like to live as a saint, he does that in them.

[\[00:23:04\]](#transcript-00-23-04-309) Our call is to preach the law faithfully and lawfully, use it for what use it the way it's meant to be used.

[\[00:23:11\]](#transcript-00-23-11-310) And we can never do it apart from the gospel, and we can never preach it as the gospel, right?

[\[00:23:16\]](#transcript-00-23-16-311) Law and gospel must go together.

[\[00:23:18\]](#transcript-00-23-18-312) The gospel is not needed unless the law is preached faithfully.

[\[00:23:22\]](#transcript-00-23-22-313) And the law without the gospel is utter despair, right?

[\[00:23:25\]](#transcript-00-23-25-314) And so, saints, sinners need law, gospel faithfully proclaimed, and it does all that's needed for this.

[\[00:23:34\]](#transcript-00-23-34-315) That's the answer: is to preach law and gospel and the uses of the law.

[\[00:23:38\]](#transcript-00-23-38-316) And I think sometimes we kind of said this yesterday, we'll say it again.

[\[00:23:42\]](#transcript-00-23-42-317) I think sometimes the confusion, even amongst a thoughtful group like this, might be that, well, the first use of the law is for the non-believer, and the third use is for the Christian.

[\[00:23:52\]](#transcript-00-23-52-318) It's like, well, that latter part is true.

[\[00:23:54\]](#transcript-00-23-54-319) The third use is only for the believer.

[\[00:23:56\]](#transcript-00-23-56-320) But that first use is actually helpful for us week over week because we're reminded yet again, like Sunday after Sunday, like, hey, fam, don't get it twisted.

[\[00:24:03\]](#transcript-00-24-03-321) Like, you're not keeping the law for merit.

[\[00:24:06\]](#transcript-00-24-06-322) Like, you can't do this.

[\[00:24:07\]](#transcript-00-24-07-323) You couldn't do it before.

[\[00:24:08\]](#transcript-00-24-08-324) You can't do it now.

[\[00:24:09\]](#transcript-00-24-09-325) You know, and so you're always being driven to Christ to cast yourself wholly upon Him Lord's Day after Lord's Day.

[\[00:24:16\]](#transcript-00-24-16-326) That's also helpful because it reminds us always where our peace comes from and where our righteousness is found, right?

[\[00:24:23\]](#transcript-00-24-23-327) Yeah, absolutely.

[\[00:24:25\]](#transcript-00-24-25-328) Um, and to answer your question, I know I'm awful at this.

[\[00:24:30\]](#transcript-00-24-30-329) These microphones.

[\[00:24:33\]](#transcript-00-24-33-330) Why, coming from my own recovering pietism or whatever, is thinking that somehow you can get people to grace through a guilt trip.

[\[00:24:42\]](#transcript-00-24-42-331) And guilt and shame are appropriate in some responses, but trying to pile guilt, almost like Jesus telling the Pharisees, you're tying up heavy burdens on people that you don't lift a finger to help bear, that kind of situation.

[\[00:24:54\]](#transcript-00-24-54-332) And you said it so well, it's like kicking a dead horse.

[\[00:24:58\]](#transcript-00-24-58-333) If you kick it long enough, it'll become alive.

[\[00:25:00\]](#transcript-00-25-00-334) And it's just the vanity of our own rationale.

[\[00:25:05\]](#transcript-00-25-05-335) And thank God for recovering from that.

[\[00:25:07\]](#transcript-00-25-07-336) But with that, we've kind of all talked about this a little bit, but you had mentioned just Romans 7 or this reality of similar uses at Pekator in the Christian life.

[\[00:25:17\]](#transcript-00-25-17-337) So you have a congregant or yourself, I'm sure we've all felt this.

[\[00:25:23\]](#transcript-00-25-23-338) I've been struggling with this same sin year after year after year.

[\[00:25:30\]](#transcript-00-25-30-339) How?

[\[00:25:31\]](#transcript-00-25-31-340) You talked about the battle, you talked about the fight.

[\[00:25:33\]](#transcript-00-25-33-341) How do we find comfort in this reality?

[\[00:25:35\]](#transcript-00-25-35-342) How do we preach comfort?

[\[00:25:37\]](#transcript-00-25-37-343) How do we tell our brothers and sisters comfort?

[\[00:25:39\]](#transcript-00-25-39-344) It's kind of a softball, but it's real.

[\[00:25:42\]](#transcript-00-25-42-345) I just, when someone wants to dip their toe in the water and see if it's safe to confess, the one they're always like, man, I just keep struggling with pride.

[\[00:25:52\]](#transcript-00-25-52-346) I just, man, that's how they're going to test you.

[\[00:25:55\]](#transcript-00-25-55-347) Like, all right, we'll see how they handle this one.

[\[00:25:58\]](#transcript-00-25-58-348) Which, if we really want to be punchy in how sometimes sin is handled, like long-standing habitual sin, like the idea that habitual sin means you're not a Christian, it's like, well, I guess none of us are then.

[\[00:26:08\]](#transcript-00-26-08-349) Because sin's habitual, guys.

[\[00:26:10\]](#transcript-00-26-10-350) I mean, you generally speaking, you have proclivities, you have bends in your frame.

[\[00:26:14\]](#transcript-00-26-14-351) You're going to battle from now until you die or Christ returns.

[\[00:26:17\]](#transcript-00-26-17-352) That's not to discourage, that's to be honest.

[\[00:26:20\]](#transcript-00-26-20-353) And there'll be grace in it.

[\[00:26:21\]](#transcript-00-26-21-354) The Spirit of God will sanctify, but the fight is real, right?

[\[00:26:25\]](#transcript-00-26-25-355) And so, then, like with that whole pride thing, it's like you're looking at a guy, somebody in sort of the self-righteous type.

[\[00:26:31\]](#transcript-00-26-31-356) It's like, man, I've been struggling with pride for 25 years.

[\[00:26:33\]](#transcript-00-26-33-357) You know, and it's like, I want to say to that man, brother, you sure you're a Christian?

[\[00:26:38\]](#transcript-00-26-38-358) Because

[\[00:26:40\]](#transcript-00-26-40-359) you talk to everybody else as though they should be better by now, and you've been struggling with the same thing for 25 years.

[\[00:26:44\]](#transcript-00-26-44-360) I don't know if you saved, man.

[\[00:26:46\]](#transcript-00-26-46-361) You know, if we want to be punchy, we could go that direction.

[\[00:26:49\]](#transcript-00-26-49-362) I mean, how many of you have been a believer for a while, and you believed the lie that over time this will go away.

[\[00:26:55\]](#transcript-00-26-55-363) Anybody?

[\[00:26:56\]](#transcript-00-26-56-364) Yeah, like you should be better.

[\[00:26:57\]](#transcript-00-26-57-365) That's right.

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-366) Or we think, even, well, sanctification means that the fight will get easier.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-367) Yeah, that's what I mean.

[\[00:27:05\]](#transcript-00-27-05-368) Not true.

[\[00:27:06\]](#transcript-00-27-06-369) No.

[\[00:27:07\]](#transcript-00-27-07-370) It's hard.

[\[00:27:07\]](#transcript-00-27-07-371) Not just, I don't even mean that, like, I just won't do it anymore.

[\[00:27:09\]](#transcript-00-27-09-372) It's right.

[\[00:27:10\]](#transcript-00-27-10-373) But even just that the fight will get easier, not necessarily true.

[\[00:27:13\]](#transcript-00-27-13-374) It might be just as hard or harder in 10 years than it is at this current moment.

[\[00:27:16\]](#transcript-00-27-16-375) Might.

[\[00:27:16\]](#transcript-00-27-16-376) That's right.

[\[00:27:17\]](#transcript-00-27-17-377) That's right.

[\[00:27:18\]](#transcript-00-27-18-378) And that I can tell you the relief to my soul when I came to the realization that it's normal to wake up every day and grind and fight and claw.

[\[00:27:32\]](#transcript-00-27-32-379) Like, no, that's why you got to depend on Christ because that's what the flesh is going to have to do with.

[\[00:27:37\]](#transcript-00-27-37-380) It was like, oh, oh, oh, so this is like normal.

[\[00:27:42\]](#transcript-00-27-42-381) Okay, good.

[\[00:27:42\]](#transcript-00-27-42-382) Because I thought it was just me.

[\[00:27:44\]](#transcript-00-27-44-383) I thought everybody else had it under control, and I was the only one, like, out of control.

[\[00:27:47\]](#transcript-00-27-47-384) Like, what happened?

[\[00:27:48\]](#transcript-00-27-48-385) Go ahead.

[\[00:27:49\]](#transcript-00-27-49-386) Yeah, I think it's important to realize: like, we're promised sanctification.

[\[00:27:53\]](#transcript-00-27-53-387) It's going to happen, and it's going to culminate in glorification.

[\[00:27:55\]](#transcript-00-27-55-388) It is certain.

[\[00:27:56\]](#transcript-00-27-56-389) He does not promise us he's going to do it in a particular way that we want him to do it, like making everything easier for us, which is the way we would like it to go.

[\[00:28:04\]](#transcript-00-28-04-390) Right?

[\[00:28:04\]](#transcript-00-28-04-391) And, you know, there are, you know, just my own Christian life, there are things that have gotten easier.

[\[00:28:09\]](#transcript-00-28-09-392) There has been grace that has

[\[00:28:13\]](#transcript-00-28-13-393) helped me to pursue Christ when I would have chased sin.

[\[00:28:16\]](#transcript-00-28-16-394) Praise God.

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-395) There are other things that are just as hard as they were 10 years, 15 years ago, God in His wisdom is sanctifying me the way that

[\[00:28:28\]](#transcript-00-28-28-396) is best for me and most glorifies Him.

[\[00:28:31\]](#transcript-00-28-31-397) It's not the way I would design it because I don't have His wisdom, right?

[\[00:28:34\]](#transcript-00-28-34-398) I don't know everything He knows.

[\[00:28:35\]](#transcript-00-28-35-399) I trust him.

[\[00:28:37\]](#transcript-00-28-37-400) I trust him.

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-401) And how he is sanctifying me is good because of who he is.

[\[00:28:42\]](#transcript-00-28-42-402) Can we make a few random comments at the end of this?

[\[00:28:45\]](#transcript-00-28-45-403) If we're wanting to keep to the schedule, it's 245, right?

[\[00:28:47\]](#transcript-00-28-47-404) Yeah, I just have one more thought on that, and I'll go.

[\[00:28:49\]](#transcript-00-28-49-405) Yeah, we might get bleed over slightly.

[\[00:28:51\]](#transcript-00-28-51-406) Because what happens is sometimes we have what's called these declarative overachievement moments where it's like I was once a gragatic, now I'm not.

[\[00:29:01\]](#transcript-00-29-01-407) What you are fooled by is that you think that this particular sin was the pinnacle moment.

[\[00:29:08\]](#transcript-00-29-08-408) You're just moved on to another struggle.

[\[00:29:10\]](#transcript-00-29-10-409) The struggle never, so the sin may change, but the struggle remains.

[\[00:29:14\]](#transcript-00-29-14-410) That's why there's dependence, and that's why saint-sinner matters.

[\[00:29:18\]](#transcript-00-29-18-411) So, praise God, we might overcome certain sins, but the moment you think you should lower your guard, take heed.

[\[00:29:24\]](#transcript-00-29-24-412) That's the fight we're talking about.

[\[00:29:26\]](#transcript-00-29-26-413) Every day you wake up, not knowing what sin you'll fight that day, but you will fight sin that day every day, and the sin changes over time.

[\[00:29:34\]](#transcript-00-29-34-414) But there's always a guard of don't make provision for my flesh because it will give in.

[\[00:29:39\]](#transcript-00-29-39-415) Yeah, and people will say things like: I can't remember the exact phrase, but everybody is one day away.

[\[00:29:46\]](#transcript-00-29-46-416) One day away from disaster, it could be one day away from falling back off the wagon, or whatever the case.

[\[00:29:51\]](#transcript-00-29-51-417) I would argue the reality is we're one moment away.

[\[00:29:54\]](#transcript-00-29-54-418) When we get so arrogant to think, because we've all been there, that pinnacles where I killed that sermon, I really did well on counseling, or blah, blah, blah, this paper's great, whatever.

[\[00:30:03\]](#transcript-00-30-03-419) Man, that's the time to watch out.

[\[00:30:06\]](#transcript-00-30-06-420) So, in thinking about the dear people that would gather in our churches, I think if we get this wrong, what often ends up happening, because we absorb, again, best of intentions, the teaching many people have sat under, and

[\[00:30:20\]](#transcript-00-30-20-421) our natural constitutions, tender consciences, especially, people will absorb this: yeah, you should be better by now.

[\[00:30:27\]](#transcript-00-30-27-422) And they, like Luther, staring themselves in the face, looking in the mirror, and it's like, well, I'm not better.

[\[00:30:34\]](#transcript-00-30-34-423) And so then there's one of two conclusions that many tender-hearted, sincere saints draw.

[\[00:30:41\]](#transcript-00-30-41-424) One, this whole thing's a sham.

[\[00:30:45\]](#transcript-00-30-45-425) Or two, Christianity's real, but it didn't take with me.

[\[00:30:50\]](#transcript-00-30-50-426) Right?

[\[00:30:51\]](#transcript-00-30-51-427) Yeah.

[\[00:30:52\]](#transcript-00-30-52-428) And that's not the result we're trying to produce.

[\[00:30:57\]](#transcript-00-30-57-429) Right.

[\[00:30:58\]](#transcript-00-30-58-430) Just had a conversation at lunch with some folks from my church talking about an individual that, coming from an oppressive background, a pietistic background, whatever, went to a place where it was like, forget it.

[\[00:31:11\]](#transcript-00-31-11-431) I'm going to burn the whole thing down to the ground.

[\[00:31:13\]](#transcript-00-31-13-432) I can never be good enough, but I can be the best sinner there is.

[\[00:31:18\]](#transcript-00-31-18-433) And that is a danger when we misunderstand and misapply this.

[\[00:31:23\]](#transcript-00-31-23-434) It's what's happening with a lot of people who are deconstructing.

[\[00:31:25\]](#transcript-00-31-25-435) That's right.

[\[00:31:26\]](#transcript-00-31-26-436) You said something that I would like to say something about, because I think it's a very, very insightful observation that there is such a thing as this kind of, you called it a spiritual prosperity gospel.

[\[00:31:39\]](#transcript-00-31-39-437) Yeah, we've called it similar things even in our own local church because we all can recognize prosperity theology when it's material.

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-438) Like, and we can nail that and just say, yeah, that's terrible, and here's all the reasons why this is wrong.

[\[00:31:52\]](#transcript-00-31-52-439) But I think we buy into, you know, like even, you know, Horton has the phrase of easy listening legalism.

[\[00:31:59\]](#transcript-00-31-59-440) I think there's an easy listening prosperity theology that is spiritual, not temporal.

[\[00:32:05\]](#transcript-00-32-05-441) And it's a theology of glory, really.

[\[00:32:07\]](#transcript-00-32-07-442) I mean, we have bought into this lie that if we are sincere enough and devoted enough and disciplined enough and do all the things the right way and meditate the right way and apply it the right way, then

[\[00:32:18\]](#transcript-00-32-18-443) we will become so daggum spiritually strong that we will, to use your phrase, we'll just kind of hover and float six inches above the fray.

[\[00:32:27\]](#transcript-00-32-27-444) And it's like, yeah, sin's real.

[\[00:32:29\]](#transcript-00-32-29-445) The battle's real.

[\[00:32:30\]](#transcript-00-32-30-446) That's all true.

[\[00:32:30\]](#transcript-00-32-30-447) We're sinner saints, but I'm going to be impervious to trial and temptation because I'm going to be so spiritually strong.

[\[00:32:37\]](#transcript-00-32-37-448) And that is not, not what the Lord would have us believe.

[\[00:32:42\]](#transcript-00-32-42-449) That's a tactic of the evil one to deceive and delude.

[\[00:32:46\]](#transcript-00-32-46-450) If I spend enough quiet time, sure.

[\[00:32:48\]](#transcript-00-32-48-451) If I get up with that cup of coffee, yeah, right.

[\[00:32:51\]](#transcript-00-32-51-452) Yeah, exactly.

[\[00:32:52\]](#transcript-00-32-52-453) Yeah.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-454) All right.

[\[00:32:54\]](#transcript-00-32-54-455) One in it.

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-456) Yeah, I think so.

[\[00:32:56\]](#transcript-00-32-56-457) Great time for that.

[\[00:32:56\]](#transcript-00-32-56-458) Great quote from Chad Bird when he was on our pod one time.

[\[00:32:59\]](#transcript-00-32-59-459) Yeah.

[\[00:32:59\]](#transcript-00-32-59-460) He said, This is just the honesty that this produces.

[\[00:33:02\]](#transcript-00-33-02-461) He guys, guys, let's be real.

[\[00:33:04\]](#transcript-00-33-04-462) He said, so often, our virtue is just an absence of temptation.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-463) And it's like, that's exactly right.

[\[00:33:10\]](#transcript-00-33-10-464) And then I'm mindful of Derek Thomas said that when Christians sin, we do not fall from grace, but into it.

[\[00:33:18\]](#transcript-00-33-18-465) That's another good word.

[\[00:33:20\]](#transcript-00-33-20-466) Well, thank you.

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-467) We've got a break.

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-468) Obviously, the schedules on your lanyard.

[\[00:33:24\]](#transcript-00-33-24-469) You can look at that.

[\[00:33:25\]](#transcript-00-33-25-470) One last reminder so that our dear friend will be able to pack up and move on to the information.

[\[00:33:32\]](#transcript-00-33-32-471) Those books are available.

[\[00:33:33\]](#transcript-00-33-33-472) He's going to be more than happy to be there to answer any questions.

[\[00:33:36\]](#transcript-00-33-36-473) Please avail yourself of that.

[\[00:33:38\]](#transcript-00-33-38-474) We'll have 20, 30 minutes.

[\[00:33:39\]](#transcript-00-33-39-475) 3:15, guys, is when we're so we've got 25 minutes.

[\[00:33:42\]](#transcript-00-33-42-476) We do need to start promptly at 3:15, and we'll go to 4 o'clock with QA?

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-477) Awesome.

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-478) See you soon.

[\[00:33:47\]](#transcript-00-33-47-479) You're just missed.

[\[00:33:48\]](#transcript-00-33-48-480) Hey, everyone.

[\[00:33:48\]](#transcript-00-33-48-481) Before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you.

[\[00:33:51\]](#transcript-00-33-51-482) And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it.

[\[00:33:55\]](#transcript-00-33-55-483) But we also need your support, and it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

[\[00:34:01\]](#transcript-00-34-01-484) So, the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.

---

### The War in Israel: Reformed Thoughts

*Published: October 18, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-war-in-israel-reformed-thoughts*
*Tags: Nation of Israel*

The events in Israel in recent days have sparked a lot of theological debate. Here at Theocast, we have gotten a number of questions from listeners. How should we think about the horrific terrorist attack on Israeli citizens and the turmoil that rages on? Are these events the fulfillment of end-time prophecy? What do these events mean for the mission of the church? Jon and Justin respond to these questions and more in today’s episode.

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---

### Law/Gospel Distinction Is Life-Changing

*Published: October 11, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/law-gospel-distinction-is-life-changing*
*Tags: Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction*

Today’s episode is a conversation amongst four pastors about how understanding the distinction between the law and the gospel changed their understanding of Scripture and their ministries. It is a very pastoral and personal conversation.

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https://youtu.be/qCaXuRtIc3s

---

### Remember Your Baptism

*Published: October 4, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/remember-your-baptism*
*Tags: Baptism*

For far too many of us, baptism is about us. It is something we do. It is about our testimony. It is about our faithfulness to God. Or maybe, it’s a sentimental thing. But, biblically, baptism is God’s gift to us. It is a sign of our union with Jesus, of the remission of our sins, of our being raised to walk in newness of life, and of God’s pledge to keep us unto salvation. Baptism is a source of great comfort, encouragement, and strength for believers. If you’ve never thought about it this way, stay tuned to today’s episode.

[Jon’s Sermon on Baptism](https://gracereformed.org/media/dhsqr37/how-to-remember-your-baptism)  
  
[Justin’s Sermon on Romans 6:1-4](https://covbap.org/sermons/baptized-into-christ-romans-61-4/)  
  
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https://youtu.be/7YD\_4Zhn1\_Y

---

### The Difference Between Reformed Theology and Calvinism

*Published: September 27, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-difference-between-reformed-theology-and-calvinism*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: Calvinism, Calvinism vs Reformed, Calvinism Vs Reformed Theology, reformed, Reformed Theology*

For many people, “Reformed” means “Calvinism.” While Calvinism is certainly a piece of Reformed theology, Reformed theology is much more than Calvinism. In this conversation, Jon and Justin talk about the differences between the modern Calvinistic evangelical movement and the historic Reformed faith. The guys talk autobiographically and also aim to put words to the experiences of many Christians.

Note: If you have not listened to the previous two episodes, “[What Is Pietism?](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-is-pietism/)” and “[What Is Reformed Theology?](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-is-reformed-theology/)”, we would encourage you to do so before listening to this one.  
  
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https://youtu.be/cxCPakuLN\_s 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:06\]](#transcript-00-00-06-1) Hi, this is Jon, and today on Theocast, Justin and I want to explain a really important historic distinction: the Calvinistic movement, the new Calvinism, the Young, Restless, and Reformed, and historic Reformed Confessionalism.

[\[00:00:20\]](#transcript-00-00-20-2) We've already done two episodes: Pietism and What is Reformed Theology, and that has led us to this place where we have to help you understand the difference between just being a Calvinist, or as we say, Calvangelical, and the

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-3) historic Reformed faith.

[\[00:00:34\]](#transcript-00-00-34-4) We hope you enjoy the discussion.

[\[00:00:36\]](#transcript-00-00-36-5) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:36\]](#transcript-00-00-36-6) If you're to Theocast, we know that many people who start listening to us struggle with their assurance?

[\[00:00:42\]](#transcript-00-00-42-7) What does it even mean to walk by faith?

[\[00:00:44\]](#transcript-00-00-44-8) Or how do you rest in Christ?

[\[00:00:46\]](#transcript-00-00-46-9) So we put together a free e-book called Rest, and it's where you can learn about the sufficiency of Christ and the differences between the law and the gospel.

[\[00:00:54\]](#transcript-00-00-54-10) And that's an important distinction.

[\[00:00:56\]](#transcript-00-00-56-11) If you'd like to learn more, just go to our website theocast.org.

[\[00:01:08\]](#transcript-00-01-08-12) Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to find their rest in Christ, conversations about the Christian life from a reformed, pastoral, and confessional perspective.

[\[00:01:21\]](#transcript-00-01-21-13) If you're wanting to know what we do, after none of that made sense, we want you to know Jesus Christ and the gospel.

[\[00:01:28\]](#transcript-00-01-28-14) Clarify the gospel and then understand your place in the kingdom.

[\[00:01:32\]](#transcript-00-01-32-15) What is the purpose of it?

[\[00:01:33\]](#transcript-00-01-33-16) So, your host today are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:01:38\]](#transcript-00-01-38-17) And I'm Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:01:39\]](#transcript-00-01-39-18) I'm pastor of Grace Reform Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:01:43\]](#transcript-00-01-43-19) And Justin, for the sake of today's subject and time, we're not even going to do announcements, brother.

[\[00:01:48\]](#transcript-00-01-48-20) We're going to jump into it.

[\[00:01:49\]](#transcript-00-01-49-21) How's that sound?

[\[00:01:50\]](#transcript-00-01-50-22) Praise be to the Lord of hosts, man.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-23) People love the announcements, though, John.

[\[00:01:56\]](#transcript-00-01-56-24) Yeah, they do.

[\[00:01:56\]](#transcript-00-01-56-25) You're so good at them.

[\[00:01:57\]](#transcript-00-01-57-26) Yeah, there're so good.

[\[00:01:59\]](#transcript-00-01-59-27) You've seen the title of today's episode: The Difference Between Reformed Theology and Calvinism.

[\[00:02:05\]](#transcript-00-02-05-28) And we refer you to our conversation from two weeks ago on what is pietism.

[\[00:02:09\]](#transcript-00-02-09-29) That's going to inform today's conversation, as well as last week's podcast: What is Reformed Theology?

[\[00:02:14\]](#transcript-00-02-14-30) We're not going to just rehash those conversations, we're going to try to cover some of that material, but in a more maybe autobiographical way, more of an existential, like your experience, kind of way.

[\[00:02:23\]](#transcript-00-02-23-31) And how do I discern the difference between something that is Calvinistic versus something that's reformed in a more full-orbed way?

[\[00:02:30\]](#transcript-00-02-30-32) The reason we're having this conversation today is that many people amongst evangelicals who call themselves Reformed, when they use that language, what they essentially mean is that they're Calvinists, that reformed is synonymous with Calvinism in the minds of

[\[00:02:46\]](#transcript-00-02-46-33) many people.

[\[00:02:47\]](#transcript-00-02-47-34) Or maybe to be reformed means I affirm the five solas of the Reformation, or perhaps it's that I uphold predestination or the doctrines of grace as they're called, pertaining to how God saves His people.

[\[00:03:01\]](#transcript-00-03-01-35) But that's really all people mean by saying that they're reformed.

[\[00:03:05\]](#transcript-00-03-05-36) I want to go ahead and none of the things that John and I articulate today are meant to be pejorative at all.

[\[00:03:12\]](#transcript-00-03-12-37) We're not impugning anybody's motivations.

[\[00:03:14\]](#transcript-00-03-14-38) All we aim to do is have a conversation in the interest of clarity because clarity is important, just so that we can draw appropriate distinctions and understand where we are and what we believe, how we think, all of

[\[00:03:25\]](#transcript-00-03-25-39) that.

[\[00:03:26\]](#transcript-00-03-26-40) So, our premise today is to try to expose the differences that do exist between Calvinism as it most often appears in the evangelical context and historical Reformed theology in the historical reformed faith.

[\[00:03:42\]](#transcript-00-03-42-41) So, off we go.

[\[00:03:43\]](#transcript-00-03-43-42) Off we go.

[\[00:03:44\]](#transcript-00-03-44-43) I think I want to start a little bit.

[\[00:03:46\]](#transcript-00-03-46-44) I mean, this is going to be somewhat biographical, and then we're going to talk historical, just kind of what's going on with the

[\[00:03:53\]](#transcript-00-03-53-45) You know, Christian faith in general.

[\[00:03:54\]](#transcript-00-03-54-46) Justin, we would both agree that there has been a rise in the interest of Calvinism.

[\[00:04:01\]](#transcript-00-04-01-47) I would argue because it's biblical.

[\[00:04:02\]](#transcript-00-04-02-48) As people study the Bible, they see the fallen nature of man.

[\[00:04:07\]](#transcript-00-04-07-49) I mean, uh, there's been great preaching and teaching on in Adam all died, you know, and the second work of Adam.

[\[00:04:14\]](#transcript-00-04-14-50) And total depravity is it's almost impossible not to see in scripture.

[\[00:04:19\]](#transcript-00-04-19-51) I mean, you were dead in your trespasses and sins.

[\[00:04:22\]](#transcript-00-04-22-52) You know, John 6, there's just, I remember John 6 was like that paramount moment.

[\[00:04:26\]](#transcript-00-04-26-53) Yeah, that's a English moment coming down the mountain from John 6.

[\[00:04:30\]](#transcript-00-04-30-54) You know, I was just like, how do I unsee that?

[\[00:04:32\]](#transcript-00-04-32-55) And it was in my Bible because I was reading it through Ephesians and it was like Ephesians 2, or it was in Ephesians 2, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, like the cross reference to that was

[\[00:04:41\]](#transcript-00-04-41-56) John 6.

[\[00:04:42\]](#transcript-00-04-42-57) And I had read both those passages my entire life, and that just kind of started me down the road.

[\[00:04:47\]](#transcript-00-04-47-58) And then it led me to what I call the gateway drugs.

[\[00:04:50\]](#transcript-00-04-50-59) It's something we've used in the past of that phrase.

[\[00:04:52\]](#transcript-00-04-52-60) But, you know, guys like John Piper, John MacArthur, RC Sproul were really introductory to this.

[\[00:05:00\]](#transcript-00-05-00-61) And I would say in the last 25, 30 years, you really have seen an increase in writing, podcasts, podcast titles, even the Calvinist movie that kind of really documented this explosion, where even men like Mark Driscoll made this

[\[00:05:15\]](#transcript-00-05-15-62) extreme.

[\[00:05:16\]](#transcript-00-05-16-63) Mark Driscoll and Matt Chandler, who have big wide reaches, really helped make this popular, along with John Piper.

[\[00:05:23\]](#transcript-00-05-23-64) And so there was that side of it being that guys were discovering, I think, the beauty and the joy of Calvinism and it going from a kind of derogatory say, I grew up in Calvinism, was like there was

[\[00:05:39\]](#transcript-00-05-39-65) Satan and then there's Calvinism.

[\[00:05:40\]](#transcript-00-05-40-66) You know, it's his doctrine.

[\[00:05:41\]](#transcript-00-05-41-67) It was the doctrine of demons.

[\[00:05:42\]](#transcript-00-05-42-68) I literally was told it was the doctrine of demons.

[\[00:05:45\]](#transcript-00-05-45-69) Yeah, well, I mean, at best, yeah, Calvinism is a boogeyman.

[\[00:05:48\]](#transcript-00-05-48-70) Exactly.

[\[00:05:48\]](#transcript-00-05-48-71) Right.

[\[00:05:49\]](#transcript-00-05-49-72) And then there was, there was a lot of great historic work done on it, and I'm thankful for that.

[\[00:05:53\]](#transcript-00-05-53-73) I remember John Piper's series on Calvinism that he did, and I just consumed that over and over again.

[\[00:05:59\]](#transcript-00-05-59-74) I listened to it, I remember it.

[\[00:06:01\]](#transcript-00-06-01-75) And, you know, that was really helpful for me just because he was so kind and gracious and patient with people when walking through some of the arguments that I had against it.

[\[00:06:12\]](#transcript-00-06-12-76) And so, you know, that part of it isn't for us, that's kind of the wing I found myself in.

[\[00:06:18\]](#transcript-00-06-18-77) Where I grew up

[\[00:06:20\]](#transcript-00-06-20-78) independent Baptist, which is very Arminian, and but there's a heavy emphasis on Bible reading and Bible study.

[\[00:06:29\]](#transcript-00-06-29-79) And, you know, what's interesting is I think James White may have made this observation that Calvary Chapel has created more More Calvinists than any other denomination on the planet because they do emphasize like the plain reading of the

[\[00:06:41\]](#transcript-00-06-41-80) text, right?

[\[00:06:42\]](#transcript-00-06-42-81) Just like, what does the text say?

[\[00:06:43\]](#transcript-00-06-43-82) And if you do take the text plainly, it's hard to argue that God's sovereignly saving sinners by His divine will.

[\[00:06:52\]](#transcript-00-06-52-83) So, you know, we would just want to acknowledge that I believe God has used a lot of this for me in my life, and I know thousands of others in a beneficial way.

[\[00:07:03\]](#transcript-00-07-03-84) Same for me.

[\[00:07:04\]](#transcript-00-07-04-85) You know, I've talked many times on the show about my Christian upbringing and being in a pretty atheological, liberal kind of environment that was moralistic.

[\[00:07:14\]](#transcript-00-07-14-86) And I was always thirsting for something more and wanting something more robust.

[\[00:07:19\]](#transcript-00-07-19-87) And so, in my early 20s, when I encountered Calvinism, you know, the doctrines of grace, and even a commitment to trying to preach through books of the Bible in the local church that I was attending at the time,

[\[00:07:29\]](#transcript-00-07-29-88) this was all new for me.

[\[00:07:31\]](#transcript-00-07-31-89) And the Lord used it mightily, and even learning about historical things like Augustine and Pelagius and how they understood the fall of man differently, and clearly seeing that Augustine was right in how our nature had fallen in Adam,

[\[00:07:46\]](#transcript-00-07-46-90) and that we're dead in our trespasses and sins, and that the only way we could then have life is if God gives it to us.

[\[00:07:53\]](#transcript-00-07-53-91) All of those things were transformational for me and significant in my Christian life, many years ago, now, because I'm not in my early 20s anymore.

[\[00:08:02\]](#transcript-00-08-02-92) But I can remember encountering these things.

[\[00:08:04\]](#transcript-00-08-04-93) And I've made the observation before, I know, with people in my church all the time, as I survey, and I think you agree, John.

[\[00:08:11\]](#transcript-00-08-11-94) So, as we survey the landscape of American evangelicalism, there is undeniably a resurgence in the interest in interest in the doctrines of grace and in Calvinism over the last several decades, sometimes referred to as New Calvinism or the

[\[00:08:25\]](#transcript-00-08-25-95) Young, Restless, and Reformed Movement.

[\[00:08:27\]](#transcript-00-08-27-96) And I think you can understand where this comes from because, you know, if you think about the last half of the 20th century, there's the megachurch movement and the seeker-sensitive movement and all of this attractional ministry stuff where

[\[00:08:39\]](#transcript-00-08-39-97) it's showy, it's kind of in the minds of many people, it's fluffy, there's not a lot of substance to it.

[\[00:08:46\]](#transcript-00-08-46-98) It's kind of like cotton candy, you know, it's sweet, tastes good, it's kind of attractive in some ways, but then there's just not a lot of staying power.

[\[00:08:52\]](#transcript-00-08-52-99) And so then there were a lot of young people, like in our generation, John, that grew up in the church wanting more.

[\[00:08:59\]](#transcript-00-08-59-100) And then there is a return to a lot of good historical stuff.

[\[00:09:03\]](#transcript-00-09-03-101) And this new Calvinism, Young, Restless, and Reformed movement kind of washes up on the shore.

[\[00:09:07\]](#transcript-00-09-07-102) And you have things like the Gospel Coalition and Together for the Gospel and all these kinds of things.

[\[00:09:13\]](#transcript-00-09-13-103) And there was a tremendous amount of juice and energy, and people rallied to it with good reason.

[\[00:09:19\]](#transcript-00-09-19-104) Like you said, I was tremendously helped by so many of these teachers and these preachers.

[\[00:09:24\]](#transcript-00-09-24-105) I mean, nine marks would be part of that rise as well.

[\[00:09:27\]](#transcript-00-09-27-106) For sure.

[\[00:09:27\]](#transcript-00-09-27-107) For sure.

[\[00:09:28\]](#transcript-00-09-28-108) So helped by so many men and women in that vein.

[\[00:09:33\]](#transcript-00-09-33-109) But here's what I think is happening, and this maybe will launch us into our conversation even more today.

[\[00:09:39\]](#transcript-00-09-39-110) But I think these personal and just historical observations are important for people just to have lenses on to see this stuff.

[\[00:09:46\]](#transcript-00-09-46-111) It only makes sense to me that as people encounter these old categories of Calvinism and the doctrines of grace, and they rediscover these old writings and to realize that we're not the first people who have tried to read

[\[00:10:00\]](#transcript-00-10-00-112) the Bible and understand it.

[\[00:10:02\]](#transcript-00-10-02-113) And they find all this helpful.

[\[00:10:04\]](#transcript-00-10-04-114) People continue, and it's robust, and it kind of gives me some of the substance that I feel like I've been lacking.

[\[00:10:08\]](#transcript-00-10-08-115) Like I'm eating really healthy food now, and this is good for me.

[\[00:10:12\]](#transcript-00-10-12-116) Well, as you start to do that, you want more of it.

[\[00:10:15\]](#transcript-00-10-15-117) So you keep reading and you keep listening and you keep studying, and then you crash up against more historical categories.

[\[00:10:22\]](#transcript-00-10-22-118) That's right.

[\[00:10:23\]](#transcript-00-10-23-119) You crash up against things like confessions of faith and catechisms and all of these kinds of things.

[\[00:10:30\]](#transcript-00-10-30-120) And you begin to uncover there in your study, not only of scripture, but of the history of the church, that man, just like Calvinism was new to me and it made sense to me according to scripture, there's a

[\[00:10:43\]](#transcript-00-10-43-121) lot of other stuff, too, that's really helpful that Christians have thought about before, that also seems to square with the Bible that I just didn't know about before.

[\[00:10:52\]](#transcript-00-10-52-122) That's right.

[\[00:10:53\]](#transcript-00-10-53-123) And so you and I have walked that road over the last, what, 15, 20 years.

[\[00:10:58\]](#transcript-00-10-58-124) Right.

[\[00:10:59\]](#transcript-00-10-59-125) And there are a number of other people that are listening to the show that are either on that road right now or are maybe just coming to a crossroads and are kind of wondering, what do I do here?

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-126) Oh, yeah.

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-127) I mean, I was in my very real early 20s, when I had that aha moment in my office as a youth pastor, going, I think I believe in whatever this is, but I didn't know what to call it

[\[00:11:21\]](#transcript-00-11-21-128) back then.

[\[00:11:22\]](#transcript-00-11-22-129) Sure, and you know, once you start going down the road of historic theology, you start realizing that there's a whole world.

[\[00:11:30\]](#transcript-00-11-30-130) It's like, you know, I've had these moments in my life, and we'll talk about them here, but uh, it's like every time you walk through the cabinets, you know, the wardrobe and you land in Narnia, you're like, Whoa,

[\[00:11:42\]](#transcript-00-11-42-131) what is all of this?

[\[00:11:43\]](#transcript-00-11-43-132) You know, I remember I just couldn't stop talking about Calvinism, and my wife was like, You have to stop.

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-133) Well, you gotta chill out, man.

[\[00:11:51\]](#transcript-00-11-51-134) Exactly.

[\[00:11:51\]](#transcript-00-11-51-135) Arcade stage was for sure, you know.

[\[00:11:54\]](#transcript-00-11-54-136) But I just was so refreshing and it was make so much sense.

[\[00:11:58\]](#transcript-00-11-58-137) Like everything was clicking, you know.

[\[00:12:00\]](#transcript-00-12-00-138) And I think that experience gets a lot of people excited.

[\[00:12:04\]](#transcript-00-12-04-139) And, but there's a there's a part that Justin and I, you know, it's, it's almost like we keep telling people, keep reading, you know, don't stop, keep reading.

[\[00:12:14\]](#transcript-00-12-14-140) Because what has happened is that

[\[00:12:17\]](#transcript-00-12-17-141) there's like a new subset of Christianity in the conservative evangelical world.

[\[00:12:24\]](#transcript-00-12-24-142) Like, there's some one of the names we didn't even mention, but C.J.

[\[00:12:27\]](#transcript-00-12-27-143) Hey Mahaney, which I know you know, sure.

[\[00:12:29\]](#transcript-00-12-29-144) he has a whole new brand of Calvinistic, which is the charismatic Calvinism, right?

[\[00:12:34\]](#transcript-00-12-34-145) With the sovereign grace ministries, and so there's like there's been these spin-offs where uh Calvinism is at its core, but that's like there's nothing really governing it.

[\[00:12:46\]](#transcript-00-12-46-146) Like, Calvinism doesn't govern anything other than you and I agree that predestination is a thing.

[\[00:12:52\]](#transcript-00-12-52-147) Yeah, and that God saves sinners.

[\[00:12:53\]](#transcript-00-12-53-148) Yeah, that's about it.

[\[00:12:54\]](#transcript-00-12-54-149) You know, you know, because you still have all kinds of brands of Calvinists out there where you could be charismatic, you could be Pentecostal.

[\[00:13:06\]](#transcript-00-13-06-150) All right, so John, let's just cut to the chase.

[\[00:13:08\]](#transcript-00-13-08-151) What do you think?

[\[00:13:09\]](#transcript-00-13-09-152) Let's cut to the chase.

[\[00:13:10\]](#transcript-00-13-10-153) Let's just cut to the chase here.

[\[00:13:11\]](#transcript-00-13-11-154) And I think this will launch us into.

[\[00:13:13\]](#transcript-00-13-13-155) Well, I just wanted to make one comment.

[\[00:13:15\]](#transcript-00-13-15-156) Where I was going with this is that what Justin and I began to realize biographically, and this is where theocast comes into play: is that the distinctions theologically and historically are important because we have seen the ramifications of

[\[00:13:32\]](#transcript-00-13-32-157) them in pastoral ministry and personal life experience.

[\[00:13:36\]](#transcript-00-13-36-158) Because I'll say it this way, which will kind of launch it off.

[\[00:13:39\]](#transcript-00-13-39-159) These three episodes go together: pietism, reform theology, and then now, this distinction, because I will say historically, the new movement, not Calvinism, the new Calvinism, the Young, Restless, and Reformed, and the Charismatic Calvinism are very pietistic in nature.

[\[00:13:59\]](#transcript-00-13-59-160) So that's why we have to create a distinction between the Calvinistic movement of today and the Reformed historic movement.

[\[00:14:05\]](#transcript-00-14-05-161) That's exactly what I was going to say.

[\[00:14:07\]](#transcript-00-14-07-162) Cool.

[\[00:14:07\]](#transcript-00-14-07-163) So, in cuttings, I just want to steal it from you.

[\[00:14:09\]](#transcript-00-14-09-164) No, you're fine.

[\[00:14:10\]](#transcript-00-14-10-165) Really, what we're trying to say is this.

[\[00:14:12\]](#transcript-00-14-12-166) What we are saying is this, humbly and with all due respect to our brothers and sisters who might disagree with us, and that's fine.

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-167) That's fine.

[\[00:14:18\]](#transcript-00-14-18-168) From our vantage point, the Calvinism that exists and what many people call reformed theology that exists in the American church is a pietistic and revivalistic brand of Calvinism.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-169) And we're going to maybe illustrate this more further in the rest of the show, but if you go back and listen to last week's episode, you're going to hear things about covenant theology and about the law and the

[\[00:14:43\]](#transcript-00-14-43-170) gospel and the distinction that exists between the two.

[\[00:14:46\]](#transcript-00-14-46-171) You're going to hear about the means of grace.

[\[00:14:48\]](#transcript-00-14-48-172) You're also going to hear about confessionalism.

[\[00:14:51\]](#transcript-00-14-51-173) And I think all of those things sort of brought down on a wedge.

[\[00:14:56\]](#transcript-00-14-56-174) A lot of what we're trying to help the listener understand today and maybe give you lenses to see is how if you take Calvinism and you put it with these other categories that have existed in the Reformed faith

[\[00:15:08\]](#transcript-00-15-08-175) through history, the emphasis is different, slightly, but it's different than what you often get amongst Calvinists today.

[\[00:15:17\]](#transcript-00-15-17-176) The tone is different.

[\[00:15:20\]](#transcript-00-15-20-177) The takeaway is maybe slightly different.

[\[00:15:23\]](#transcript-00-15-23-178) And there is an objectivity to it that is healthy and good.

[\[00:15:28\]](#transcript-00-15-28-179) So it's not this objectivity that you see.

[\[00:15:31\]](#transcript-00-15-31-180) Why do you see so many evangelicals running to Rome?

[\[00:15:34\]](#transcript-00-15-34-181) Why do you see so many evangelicals running to like very sacerdotal versions of Christianity?

[\[00:15:40\]](#transcript-00-15-40-182) It's because they're in search of something objective.

[\[00:15:43\]](#transcript-00-15-43-183) Because everything they've ever had is all subjective.

[\[00:15:45\]](#transcript-00-15-45-184) It's about their response, it's about their fervor, their discipline, their devotion, you know, in their conversion moment and then thereafter.

[\[00:15:52\]](#transcript-00-15-52-185) So they're constantly evaluating themselves and they realize how far short of the mark they're coming.

[\[00:15:57\]](#transcript-00-15-57-186) And so there's no hope, there's no peace.

[\[00:16:00\]](#transcript-00-16-00-187) And people are craving for, I need to know that I can know that I can know that I have peace with God.

[\[00:16:06\]](#transcript-00-16-06-188) And so they're looking for anything objective that they can cling to, and they're swinging on a pendulum from the subjectivism of pietism and revivalism.

[\[00:16:15\]](#transcript-00-16-15-189) Maybe that's Calvinistic, but there's commercialism.

[\[00:16:18\]](#transcript-00-16-18-190) They're swinging over to like Rome and sacerdotalism.

[\[00:16:21\]](#transcript-00-16-21-191) And that's sad to see.

[\[00:16:23\]](#transcript-00-16-23-192) I'll go ahead and say, if I can one more illustration, I'll just go ahead and now rather than saving it for the end.

[\[00:16:29\]](#transcript-00-16-29-193) Many of the listeners will know, and I don't know this brother personally, and this is not in any way disparaging about him at all.

[\[00:16:37\]](#transcript-00-16-37-194) Um, he says a lot of wonderful things that John and I would wholeheartedly amen.

[\[00:16:41\]](#transcript-00-16-41-195) So, many are familiar with a Christian hip-hop artist named Flame, who recently, in the last few years, became Lutheran.

[\[00:16:49\]](#transcript-00-16-49-196) And we, first of all, we have a number of Lutheran friends that are dear to us, and we love them and are so grateful.

[\[00:16:56\]](#transcript-00-16-56-197) But what Flame is saying in many, like in some of his, his

[\[00:17:03\]](#transcript-00-17-03-198) His songs and his newer albums is he's comparing Lutheranism to Calvinism and he is disparaging, in a way, Calvinism.

[\[00:17:12\]](#transcript-00-17-12-199) And what I would want to say, and John, I'm not going to speak for you.

[\[00:17:16\]](#transcript-00-17-16-200) I think you agree with me, is that the kind of Calvinism that Flame is rightly critiquing on those albums is a pietistic and revivalistic Calvinism.

[\[00:17:27\]](#transcript-00-17-27-201) And so, what Flame has found is the confessional faith.

[\[00:17:31\]](#transcript-00-17-31-202) He has found confessional Lutheranism, and he is reacting against revivalistic and pietistic Calvinism, I don't think what he's reacting against is the confessional reformed faith.

[\[00:17:43\]](#transcript-00-17-43-203) And I'm saying this as a person that used to be a pietistic Calvinist.

[\[00:17:46\]](#transcript-00-17-46-204) That's right.

[\[00:17:47\]](#transcript-00-17-47-205) And so I've walked this road because all of the things that Flame is articulating on his albums and his struggles, and how we're always being pointed back in on ourselves, that was my life, which is why encountering confessionalism

[\[00:18:00\]](#transcript-00-18-00-206) and the law and gospel distinction and all of these things that we've been talking about for weeks has changed my Christian life.

[\[00:18:07\]](#transcript-00-18-07-207) I'm grateful.

[\[00:18:08\]](#transcript-00-18-08-208) I'm humbled.

[\[00:18:08\]](#transcript-00-18-08-209) It's a joy for me to be a pastor, to be able to preach and teach these things.

[\[00:18:12\]](#transcript-00-18-12-210) So I think that's the experience, probably, of a lot of people out there.

[\[00:18:15\]](#transcript-00-18-15-211) And maybe flame as an illustration is helpful.

[\[00:18:17\]](#transcript-00-18-17-212) And even for me to say, like, bro, I'm with you in what you found.

[\[00:18:21\]](#transcript-00-18-21-213) I think I've found it too, just in the confessional reform faith, not in confessional Lutheranism.

[\[00:18:26\]](#transcript-00-18-26-214) Hey, guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this, and it's encouraging to you but you have questions so where do you go how do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources

[\[00:18:37\]](#transcript-00-18-37-215) we have started something called the theocast community we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-216) you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:18:51\]](#transcript-00-18-51-217) You can go check it out.

[\[00:18:52\]](#transcript-00-18-52-218) The link is in the description below.

[\[00:18:54\]](#transcript-00-18-54-219) Shout out to our Brother in Christ and dear friend Jimmy Bueller, who came up with the phrase years ago where we were talking about this very thing.

[\[00:19:02\]](#transcript-00-19-02-220) And just kind of on the fly, Jimmy goes, These are Calvangelicals.

[\[00:19:06\]](#transcript-00-19-06-221) Yeah.

[\[00:19:07\]](#transcript-00-19-07-222) You know, and it's great, it's a great phrase.

[\[00:19:09\]](#transcript-00-19-09-223) And I'll have to text him to let him know we use this phrase again.

[\[00:19:11\]](#transcript-00-19-11-224) It is a great phrase.

[\[00:19:13\]](#transcript-00-19-13-225) But for some of you, I've asked over the years, where's Jimmy?

[\[00:19:16\]](#transcript-00-19-16-226) Jimmy's doing great.

[\[00:19:18\]](#transcript-00-19-18-227) He's working at a Christian school.

[\[00:19:20\]](#transcript-00-19-20-228) I love him, and He's teaching Bible and history and love.

[\[00:19:22\]](#transcript-00-19-22-229) That's right.

[\[00:19:23\]](#transcript-00-19-23-230) He's sharing the gospel.

[\[00:19:24\]](#transcript-00-19-24-231) And so we love our brother.

[\[00:19:25\]](#transcript-00-19-25-232) Just schedules over the years, just haven't worked out.

[\[00:19:28\]](#transcript-00-19-28-233) So, anyways, total side note.

[\[00:19:30\]](#transcript-00-19-30-234) Yep.

[\[00:19:31\]](#transcript-00-19-31-235) But if you go back to our old episode, you'll see Jimmy there.

[\[00:19:34\]](#transcript-00-19-34-236) Everybody loved him.

[\[00:19:36\]](#transcript-00-19-36-237) So, but Jimmy had a really good point because we are talking about evangelical Calvinistic.

[\[00:19:42\]](#transcript-00-19-42-238) Now, historically speaking, Justin, evangelicals over the last 100, 150 years have been primarily that aren't confessional, are dispensational.

[\[00:19:53\]](#transcript-00-19-53-239) And dispensationalists tend to not be covenantalists.

[\[00:19:56\]](#transcript-00-19-56-240) And so our dispensationalist brothers are Protestants and evangelical.

[\[00:20:02\]](#transcript-00-20-02-241) So Protestant means to protest Rome, your well, to bear witness.

[\[00:20:06\]](#transcript-00-20-06-242) Right.

[\[00:20:07\]](#transcript-00-20-07-243) Against it, saying we don't agree with their testimony.

[\[00:20:09\]](#transcript-00-20-09-244) And then evangelical is really a phrase.

[\[00:20:11\]](#transcript-00-20-11-245) This kind of just means we agree on the core essentials of the gospel.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-246) It's kind of where that came from.

[\[00:20:16\]](#transcript-00-20-16-247) People of the evangel, the good news.

[\[00:20:18\]](#transcript-00-20-18-248) People of the evangel.

[\[00:20:19\]](#transcript-00-20-19-249) And so to call them Calvangelical, meaning that they would be a slight little bit more clarity, meaning that they're Calvinistic evangelicals.

[\[00:20:28\]](#transcript-00-20-28-250) And I think that a lot of evangelicals today, a lot of people who promote Calvinism that are prominent tend to be very conservative dispensationalists.

[\[00:20:40\]](#transcript-00-20-40-251) I'll give you an example of this would be someone like John MacArthur, or even John Piper, or even Matt Chandler, guys like this.

[\[00:20:48\]](#transcript-00-20-48-252) And all those guys might not be dispensationalists, but they're evangelical.

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-253) They would be more leaning dispensational because they would not hold to covenant theology.

[\[00:20:57\]](#transcript-00-20-57-254) They would, yeah.

[\[00:20:58\]](#transcript-00-20-58-255) They would hold some kind of either dispensation or some kind of like new covenant view or something like that.

[\[00:21:02\]](#transcript-00-21-02-256) Exactly.

[\[00:21:03\]](#transcript-00-21-03-257) Specifically, though, John Piper, I mean, John MacArthur is for sure holds to a dispensational view.

[\[00:21:09\]](#transcript-00-21-09-258) And the reason why I mentioned this is important because historically, dispensationalism is a non-confessional.

[\[00:21:18\]](#transcript-00-21-18-259) Listen, I love my dispensational brothers.

[\[00:21:20\]](#transcript-00-21-20-260) I once was one.

[\[00:21:22\]](#transcript-00-21-22-261) I was trained in a dispensational school.

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-262) So I say this with as much compassion and not to be derogatory at all.

[\[00:21:31\]](#transcript-00-21-31-263) Appreciation.

[\[00:21:32\]](#transcript-00-21-32-264) Yeah.

[\[00:21:32\]](#transcript-00-21-32-265) I mean, they have been great defenders of the Orthodox faith for a long time where they're trying to protect things like the sufficiency of scripture, things like that.

[\[00:21:40\]](#transcript-00-21-40-266) But they tend to be non-confessional and pietistic in nature because historically, dispensationalists weren't Calvinist.

[\[00:21:49\]](#transcript-00-21-49-267) They were more Arminian, free will, for like a free will Baptist kind of an idea.

[\[00:21:53\]](#transcript-00-21-53-268) And it's been a more modern shift where our brothers are looking at the text, taking it more seriously.

[\[00:21:59\]](#transcript-00-21-59-269) And you will see that I think the biggest name, in my opinion, would be John MacArthur of being, and he has taught five-point Calvinism, like all five points.

[\[00:22:10\]](#transcript-00-22-10-270) And so, what ends up happening is that because he's conservative and Calvinistic, people then will then put him into the historic reformed camp.

[\[00:22:21\]](#transcript-00-22-21-271) And I'm not here trying to be picky on who's in the boat, who's not in the boat.

[\[00:22:25\]](#transcript-00-22-25-272) That's where that's not the point.

[\[00:22:27\]](#transcript-00-22-27-273) It's just that there are category confusions, and there's why we'll sound Justin and I are going to sound different than someone like a Piper or a MacArthur or even a Matt Chandler because the positions that we're coming from

[\[00:22:43\]](#transcript-00-22-43-274) are actually theologically different because we're understanding scripture.

[\[00:22:47\]](#transcript-00-22-47-275) We agree with them on Calvinism.

[\[00:22:50\]](#transcript-00-22-50-276) But when it comes to confessional theology, which is the rest of covenant theology and confessionalism and ordinary means of grace, law-gospel distinction, we're going to look at the text differently.

[\[00:23:00\]](#transcript-00-23-00-277) Like all of the rest of scripture, we're going to actually look at it differently.

[\[00:23:04\]](#transcript-00-23-04-278) When we come to the passages on like Calvinism, like you were dead in your trespasses and sins, if I preach that and MacArthur preaches that, it's going to sound the same because we agree with them on those passages.

[\[00:23:14\]](#transcript-00-23-14-279) But when it comes to the rest of scripture, yeah, we're going to look at it differently because of the historic reformed approach, where their approach is either going to be like

[\[00:23:26\]](#transcript-00-23-26-280) it's going to be more dispensational, or guys like Piper, who probably would not call himself a dispensationalist.

[\[00:23:32\]](#transcript-00-23-32-281) No, but he's kind of a mono-covenantalist.

[\[00:23:34\]](#transcript-00-23-34-282) Yeah, he would be more of a biblicist.

[\[00:23:36\]](#transcript-00-23-36-283) Yeah.

[\[00:23:36\]](#transcript-00-23-36-284) Same thing with a guy like Platt, or, you know, I don't have to keep going.

[\[00:23:42\]](#transcript-00-23-42-285) No, let me just make a few observations here.

[\[00:23:44\]](#transcript-00-23-44-286) I think, so let's take a few of the things that we outlined last week that are tenets of Reformed theology and just discuss them in brief regarding the kind of contemporary moment.

[\[00:23:54\]](#transcript-00-23-54-287) So, covenant theology, you've brought it up.

[\[00:23:57\]](#transcript-00-23-57-288) I think the guys who are Calvinists and are dispensationalists would disagree with covenant theology self-consciously.

[\[00:24:02\]](#transcript-00-24-02-289) Like, they would say it's not helpful in terms of a way to understand the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, like hermeneutically, in terms of how we interpret.

[\[00:24:11\]](#transcript-00-24-11-290) It's not good.

[\[00:24:12\]](#transcript-00-24-12-291) I think a lot of guys that are more broadly evangelical Calvinists are going to be in a camp where they're kind of new covenant guys or progressive covenantalists, and they might not even have all the categories of historical

[\[00:24:24\]](#transcript-00-24-24-292) covenant theology.

[\[00:24:25\]](#transcript-00-24-25-293) They might not be vehemently opposed to it.

[\[00:24:27\]](#transcript-00-24-27-294) They might kind of think they agree with it, but they're certainly not going to see it as a really important matter like you and I would in terms of how we understand scripture.

[\[00:24:36\]](#transcript-00-24-36-295) So, when we talk about Jesus from all of the Bible, we're talking about covenant theology.

[\[00:24:41\]](#transcript-00-24-41-296) You know, we're talking about understanding that this is one plan of God to redeem and save, accomplished through Christ.

[\[00:24:47\]](#transcript-00-24-47-297) And covenant theology is going to help us understand how it all hangs together.

[\[00:24:50\]](#transcript-00-24-50-298) I think on the law and the gospel distinction, I think there are a lot of Calvinistic evangelicals that would be nervous about the ways that we articulate that distinction.

[\[00:25:00\]](#transcript-00-25-00-299) Yeah.

[\[00:25:02\]](#transcript-00-25-02-300) And I know this because I've been in conversations with guys about it, just kind of covertly.

[\[00:25:07\]](#transcript-00-25-07-301) I'm not really laying my cards on the table.

[\[00:25:09\]](#transcript-00-25-09-302) I'm just kind of listening to guys talk.

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-303) And the distinction between the law and the gospel, some people feel like, well, this is imposed upon scripture.

[\[00:25:17\]](#transcript-00-25-17-304) You're forcing this on the text.

[\[00:25:19\]](#transcript-00-25-19-305) And it's just, it's going to lead to lawlessness.

[\[00:25:21\]](#transcript-00-25-21-306) You know, and there's not enough concern for holiness.

[\[00:25:23\]](#transcript-00-25-23-307) And that's right.

[\[00:25:23\]](#transcript-00-25-23-308) To which we would disagree with all of those takes.

[\[00:25:26\]](#transcript-00-25-26-309) But for us, the understanding of the law and the gospel and the covenant of works and grace, those things go together in terms of how we see the scriptures unfold in God's two words of law and gospel.

[\[00:25:36\]](#transcript-00-25-36-310) That's right.

[\[00:25:36\]](#transcript-00-25-36-311) We've talked about ordinary means and how there's a difference of understanding there, where amongst many contemporary Calvinists, the ordinary means of grace contain spiritual disciplines that are personal, whereas for us, it's a corporate emphasis.

[\[00:25:48\]](#transcript-00-25-48-312) Yeah.

[\[00:25:50\]](#transcript-00-25-50-313) Go ahead.

[\[00:25:50\]](#transcript-00-25-50-314) No, I was going to say

[\[00:25:53\]](#transcript-00-25-53-315) almost as a point of illustration, Justin and I, we have a new community called Theocast Community, and there's an app, and someone posted a video in there asking our thoughts on a video from Paul Washer.

[\[00:26:04\]](#transcript-00-26-04-316) And he makes this statement that I agree with him.

[\[00:26:07\]](#transcript-00-26-07-317) Paul was saying, and I commend the guy.

[\[00:26:11\]](#transcript-00-26-11-318) You could tell he was really sick when he was preaching this.

[\[00:26:13\]](#transcript-00-26-13-319) I think it was at a G3 conference.

[\[00:26:14\]](#transcript-00-26-14-320) So I was like, good for you.

[\[00:26:16\]](#transcript-00-26-16-321) But he was he was uh saying he was making criticisms of modern-day Calvinists, which I agree with him, where he makes this statement where he says they're playing marbles with diamonds.

[\[00:26:28\]](#transcript-00-26-28-322) They don't understand the jewel that they're holding.

[\[00:26:31\]](#transcript-00-26-31-323) And so they treat it so frivolously.

[\[00:26:34\]](#transcript-00-26-34-324) And his conclusion was: we need to be, what happened, you know, then he kind of went to the reform side of it and he was like, We don't need to be reformed, we need to be biblical.

[\[00:26:44\]](#transcript-00-26-44-325) And he goes, Whatever happened wrong with being biblical.

[\[00:26:46\]](#transcript-00-26-46-326) And I understand his heart, and I'm with him on that.

[\[00:26:50\]](#transcript-00-26-50-327) But anytime, Justin, someone says that I just biblical, I just believe what the Bible says, that's not verifiable.

[\[00:26:57\]](#transcript-00-26-57-328) Like, I don't know what you mean.

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-329) Just because you say you believe a book, I don't know what you mean by that book.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-330) And the reason why, Justin and I are kind of arguing, saying, hey, Reformed theology isn't a cool past.

[\[00:27:10\]](#transcript-00-27-10-331) It's not just Martin Luther nailing a 95 thesis to the door.

[\[00:27:14\]](#transcript-00-27-14-332) It's not just John Calvin.

[\[00:27:16\]](#transcript-00-27-16-333) It's not John Calvin's institutes.

[\[00:27:17\]](#transcript-00-27-17-334) Right.

[\[00:27:18\]](#transcript-00-27-18-335) So, like, reformed has a history.

[\[00:27:20\]](#transcript-00-27-20-336) And that's the thing that we're talking about.

[\[00:27:22\]](#transcript-00-27-22-337) Like, there's, we said five to six areas that historically the church has really wrestled with fighting against heresy and bad doctrine.

[\[00:27:31\]](#transcript-00-27-31-338) And from that has come this wonderful track that you can run on, you know, safely put your train on and say, you know, I can trust where this is running because it's been examined and it's been looked at.

[\[00:27:44\]](#transcript-00-27-44-339) Like from my reformed, I'm sorry, from my Calvinistic brothers, they feel safe enough to embrace John Calvin's five points, but then it's kind of like their history lesson stops there.

[\[00:27:58\]](#transcript-00-27-58-340) Like, they don't really go past and really understand the art.

[\[00:28:01\]](#transcript-00-28-01-341) You know, like, for instance, Sinclair Ferguson's work on the whole Christ is so important, understanding the art of creed.

[\[00:28:08\]](#transcript-00-28-08-342) Like, we are reliving

[\[00:28:10\]](#transcript-00-28-10-343) the marriage controversy.

[\[00:28:12\]](#transcript-00-28-12-344) We are reliving it today.

[\[00:28:13\]](#transcript-00-28-13-345) Yeah.

[\[00:28:13\]](#transcript-00-28-13-346) Because we don't understand history and we're not reading it and understanding that, you know, as John or as Spurgeon said, that I think is so helpful.

[\[00:28:21\]](#transcript-00-28-21-347) He's like, we read scriptures, assuming we're the first one to have the Holy Spirit and interpret it correctly.

[\[00:28:28\]](#transcript-00-28-28-348) And it's what he was arguing, he was fighting the same issue that we're fighting today, where we're saying we don't need history, but yet we're repeating history.

[\[00:28:37\]](#transcript-00-28-37-349) We're repeating heresies.

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-350) We're repeating the same issues.

[\[00:28:40\]](#transcript-00-28-40-351) Where, you know, we are, though, the faith that's once been handed down faithfully, we kind of just assume, like, well, after the disciples, everyone got it wrong, and now we're here getting it right again.

[\[00:28:51\]](#transcript-00-28-51-352) Yeah.

[\[00:28:51\]](#transcript-00-28-51-353) A couple of things that are popping up corner round in my brain.

[\[00:28:54\]](#transcript-00-28-54-354) You know, we've talked about how so much of Calvinism today is pietistic, and there's an emphasis on the Christian life.

[\[00:29:01\]](#transcript-00-29-01-355) And obviously, there's a preaching of Jesus, but the Christian life really becomes the focus and the emphasis.

[\[00:29:06\]](#transcript-00-29-06-356) And I think that's pretty self-evidently plain in a lot of the preaching and a lot of the books that are written and that sell today.

[\[00:29:13\]](#transcript-00-29-13-357) But then the biblicism thing that you brought up earlier, I think, is worth a mention here.

[\[00:29:19\]](#transcript-00-29-19-358) And biblicism, kind of historically properly defined, is where you're going to be.

[\[00:29:27\]](#transcript-00-29-27-359) You're going to be nervous about any doctrinal claim that is not explicitly stated in scripture.

[\[00:29:34\]](#transcript-00-29-34-360) And alongside that, you are going to tend to diminish the importance of creeds and confessions and historical things that the church has concluded.

[\[00:29:44\]](#transcript-00-29-44-361) So I'll repeat that.

[\[00:29:45\]](#transcript-00-29-45-362) You're going to be nervous about any kind of doctrinal claim that is not explicitly verbatim stated in scripture, chapter and verse, and you're going to tend to diminish the importance of creeds and confessions.

[\[00:29:57\]](#transcript-00-29-57-363) And I think that it's very clear that that is the kind of Calvinism that exists amongst most people today.

[\[00:30:04\]](#transcript-00-30-04-364) That's right.

[\[00:30:05\]](#transcript-00-30-05-365) That it is a biblicistic kind of Calvinism, which is not what John and I are trying to articulate.

[\[00:30:12\]](#transcript-00-30-12-366) We are appealing to an historical confessional faith where we're not asking the question only, what does the text say or what does it mean to us?

[\[00:30:21\]](#transcript-00-30-21-367) We're actually trying to, as a friend of mine put on Twitter or X or whatever you call it recently, that as a confessionalist, you bring the one holy Catholic Apostolic Church to Bible study.

[\[00:30:32\]](#transcript-00-30-32-368) That's right.

[\[00:30:33\]](#transcript-00-30-33-369) And the question is no longer: what does the text mean to me, or what does the text mean to us, but how have faithful saints historically understood this text?

[\[00:30:42\]](#transcript-00-30-42-370) And that's the posture that we're coming with.

[\[00:30:45\]](#transcript-00-30-45-371) And so, even when it comes to the law and gospel distinction or covenant theology, those are things text we understand that the church historically has identified these doctrinal categories, and then we go back to the scripture with them,

[\[00:30:58\]](#transcript-00-30-58-372) with these tools in our backpacks, and it actually helps us to better understand the text.

[\[00:31:04\]](#transcript-00-31-04-373) And that's a reformed approach and a confessional approach to even understanding scripture versus a more modern Calvinistic approach that is biblicistic at the same time.

[\[00:31:17\]](#transcript-00-31-17-374) Yeah, you know, sometimes people will then hurl at us, and the Pactum has done a really good job on the difference between solo scriptura and solo scriptura.

[\[00:31:28\]](#transcript-00-31-28-375) And so you can go listen to that episode.

[\[00:31:30\]](#transcript-00-31-30-376) Love our brothers over there.

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-377) But sometimes they hurl, hey, this is why the five souls came out to be because the Roman Catholic Church was promoting the same thing you guys are promoting.

[\[00:31:40\]](#transcript-00-31-40-378) And unfortunately, that's just a lack of understanding on history.

[\[00:31:45\]](#transcript-00-31-45-379) And I'm not trying to be a jerk.

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-380) Both of us are not trying to be jerkish here.

[\[00:31:50\]](#transcript-00-31-50-381) I think the like, if I were to tell you, what is the heart and purpose of this?

[\[00:31:54\]](#transcript-00-31-54-382) I'm talking to the guy that I was 20 years ago.

[\[00:31:58\]](#transcript-00-31-58-383) I'm talking to you.

[\[00:31:59\]](#transcript-00-31-59-384) Like, I was this Calvinist who couldn't get enough almost exactly 20, maybe 21 years ago, is when I was like, I'm finally a Calvinist.

[\[00:32:06\]](#transcript-00-32-06-385) I got embraced.

[\[00:32:07\]](#transcript-00-32-07-386) Think, how old am I right now?

[\[00:32:08\]](#transcript-00-32-08-387) Pretty close to that.

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-388) And, you know, over the years of being able to watch and really examine and historically look at the Creeds of Confessions and allow history to inform me of where people have run off the road in the past has

[\[00:32:26\]](#transcript-00-32-26-389) really brought a lot of comfort to me.

[\[00:32:28\]](#transcript-00-32-28-390) And listen, all reformed, truly reformed, all reformed say the only authority that we have is scripture.

[\[00:32:38\]](#transcript-00-32-38-391) I mean, our confession states it in the opening line.

[\[00:32:41\]](#transcript-00-32-41-392) You know, the supreme and only authority is scripture.

[\[00:32:44\]](#transcript-00-32-44-393) Sometimes we get confused thinking that because of history, that creeds of confessions are like how the Catholics put it, where the Catholic teaching is on par with scripture.

[\[00:32:57\]](#transcript-00-32-57-394) We're not saying that.

[\[00:32:59\]](#transcript-00-32-59-395) I think it's very important and clearly to understand that because sometimes when I know from my dispensationalist background, I can remember pastor saying, No creed but Christ, no confession but the Bible, which is a creed and a confession,

[\[00:33:10\]](#transcript-00-33-10-396) by the way, in and of itself.

[\[00:33:12\]](#transcript-00-33-12-397) So is the Schofield Study Bible.

[\[00:33:13\]](#transcript-00-33-13-398) Right.

[\[00:33:14\]](#transcript-00-33-14-399) Anytime you have some kind of a study Bible, you're at that point.

[\[00:33:17\]](#transcript-00-33-17-400) Or the riry, or whatever you got.

[\[00:33:19\]](#transcript-00-33-19-401) Right.

[\[00:33:19\]](#transcript-00-33-19-402) Exactly.

[\[00:33:20\]](#transcript-00-33-20-403) So we're just asking yourself: you know, is it verifiable?

[\[00:33:24\]](#transcript-00-33-24-404) Who's verified it?

[\[00:33:25\]](#transcript-00-33-25-405) How has it been accepted?

[\[00:33:26\]](#transcript-00-33-26-406) Who's challenged it?

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-407) What scrutiny has it stood underneath?

[\[00:33:30\]](#transcript-00-33-30-408) And a lot of times, Justin, you and I and I aren't married to terms.

[\[00:33:33\]](#transcript-00-33-33-409) We're not married to words.

[\[00:33:34\]](#transcript-00-33-34-410) You know, like, I don't, you don't have to have the word reformed.

[\[00:33:37\]](#transcript-00-33-37-411) I think it's just a great historic word that really is married to doctrine, but not terms.

[\[00:33:43\]](#transcript-00-33-43-412) No, like, some people have a hard time with the idea of covenant of works.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-413) Well, I'm like, I don't care what you call it.

[\[00:33:48\]](#transcript-00-33-48-414) Did Adam represent us all in the garden?

[\[00:33:50\]](#transcript-00-33-50-415) That's right.

[\[00:33:50\]](#transcript-00-33-50-416) Or if someone's like, I can't stand the word Trinity.

[\[00:33:53\]](#transcript-00-33-53-417) You don't actually have to be Trinitarian in word, but you do in doctrine.

[\[00:33:59\]](#transcript-00-33-59-418) Like you can't deny the trying part of God, right?

[\[00:34:02\]](#transcript-00-34-02-419) You just can't do it.

[\[00:34:03\]](#transcript-00-34-03-420) But you have to call yourself Trinitarian.

[\[00:34:06\]](#transcript-00-34-06-421) It's helpful.

[\[00:34:06\]](#transcript-00-34-06-422) Historically, it's helpful.

[\[00:34:08\]](#transcript-00-34-08-423) Yeah.

[\[00:34:09\]](#transcript-00-34-09-424) And that's all we're trying to get at: is that sometimes people think we're arguing for a particular brand of Christianity, like you have to be Baptist, or and we're not.

[\[00:34:17\]](#transcript-00-34-17-425) We're just trying to challenge everyone and say, listen, the movement's great, Calvinistic movement is great, but

[\[00:34:26\]](#transcript-00-34-26-426) we need the dialogue to continue.

[\[00:34:27\]](#transcript-00-34-27-427) Yeah, and there's no badge of honor here.

[\[00:34:29\]](#transcript-00-34-29-428) I mean, we're not worried about merit and all this stuff.

[\[00:34:32\]](#transcript-00-34-32-429) And yeah, like if you wear these kind of shoes, you're better.

[\[00:34:34\]](#transcript-00-34-34-430) I mean, it's that's stupid.

[\[00:34:36\]](#transcript-00-34-36-431) I want you to do this.

[\[00:34:37\]](#transcript-00-34-37-432) I want to do this too.

[\[00:34:38\]](#transcript-00-34-38-433) Like, if I'm speaking to me 15, 20 years ago, 20 years ago is about, you know, I'm would talk to me about Calvinism.

[\[00:34:46\]](#transcript-00-34-46-434) 15 years ago, I would talk about confessionalism and the law and the gospel at most pointedly.

[\[00:34:53\]](#transcript-00-34-53-435) Because covenant theology and Calvinism kind of came together for me, but that's neither here nor there.

[\[00:34:56\]](#transcript-00-34-56-436) But this is where I really want to go.

[\[00:34:59\]](#transcript-00-34-59-437) If you're out there and you've embraced Calvinism, and

[\[00:35:04\]](#transcript-00-35-04-438) you lean into the sovereignty of God, and He saves sinners.

[\[00:35:08\]](#transcript-00-35-08-439) Salvation belongs to the Lord.

[\[00:35:10\]](#transcript-00-35-10-440) And this is undeniable to me from scripture.

[\[00:35:13\]](#transcript-00-35-13-441) And the Lord, our God is in the heavens, He does everything He pleases, and that's a good thing.

[\[00:35:17\]](#transcript-00-35-17-442) And you're there, and in your best moments, it gives you peace to know that the only way you ever became a Christian in the first place is because God did it for you.

[\[00:35:28\]](#transcript-00-35-28-443) And you read passages like John 6:37 to 40.

[\[00:35:33\]](#transcript-00-35-33-444) You read passages like John 10, you know, in the like teens, and then in the like 27, 28, and you hear Jesus say to you, I'm never going to let you go.

[\[00:35:44\]](#transcript-00-35-44-445) I'm going to raise you up on the last day.

[\[00:35:47\]](#transcript-00-35-47-446) And you're like, okay, I'm safe because Jesus won't fail me.

[\[00:35:52\]](#transcript-00-35-52-447) I may fail him, but he won't fail me.

[\[00:35:55\]](#transcript-00-35-55-448) But yet you're haunted because you sit in an environment where there is so much emphasis on you, and there is all of this.

[\[00:36:04\]](#transcript-00-36-04-449) We need to be serious-minded.

[\[00:36:06\]](#transcript-00-36-06-450) We need to not be like the rest of the Christians out there who are just seeker-sensitive and just want to be comforted and just want to consume.

[\[00:36:12\]](#transcript-00-36-12-451) We need to be devoted to God.

[\[00:36:14\]](#transcript-00-36-14-452) We need to pursue obedience and we need to be strong in the faith and all of these things.

[\[00:36:21\]](#transcript-00-36-21-453) And you need to obey, and you need to give your life to these things, and you need to discipline yourself, or you may end up proving yourself to just be a non-believer.

[\[00:36:30\]](#transcript-00-36-30-454) Because that's where I lived, man.

[\[00:36:32\]](#transcript-00-36-32-455) Like, I embraced the sovereignty of God.

[\[00:36:35\]](#transcript-00-36-35-456) I embraced Calvinism and the doctrines of grace.

[\[00:36:37\]](#transcript-00-36-37-457) I saw in them my only hope.

[\[00:36:39\]](#transcript-00-36-39-458) But then there was also kind of out of the other side of the mouth was always this unsettling language of you're not doing enough.

[\[00:36:47\]](#transcript-00-36-47-459) And if you don't do well enough, you're going to prove yourself to be a faker.

[\[00:36:50\]](#transcript-00-36-50-460) God will save all of his elect, but you're going to prove yourself to not be elect through your lack of A, B, C, D.

[\[00:36:57\]](#transcript-00-36-57-461) That's right.

[\[00:36:58\]](#transcript-00-36-58-462) And we've referenced Matthew 7 a lot, but yeah, just that haunting feeling of I'm going to be one of these people that will have meant to follow Christ my whole life, and I'm going to stand before him at

[\[00:37:06\]](#transcript-00-37-06-463) the end of it all, and he's going to tell me to depart from him because he didn't know me because I was a fake.

[\[00:37:12\]](#transcript-00-37-12-464) And

[\[00:37:14\]](#transcript-00-37-14-465) what I would say to me, to you out there, if that's where you are, is that according to scripture, Christ is a sufficient Savior, and that our union with Him will save us, period.

[\[00:37:28\]](#transcript-00-37-28-466) And that these understandings of the law and the gospel, and the understanding of Christ as the plan of God from all of time to save and to be the representative of his people, and even of the ordinary means

[\[00:37:39\]](#transcript-00-37-39-467) of grace, and how we're going to be sustained and how we're going to grow in the faith, these things change your life.

[\[00:37:45\]](#transcript-00-37-45-468) It's just a different tone and a different emphasis because it becomes all of Christ and I fade into the background.

[\[00:37:51\]](#transcript-00-37-51-469) I'm growing.

[\[00:37:52\]](#transcript-00-37-52-470) I'm being sanctified, but it's not because I'm focusing on me, it's because my eyes are fixed on the Savior and I'm living life with the saints.

[\[00:38:00\]](#transcript-00-38-00-471) And if that sounds like water in the desert to you, then consider the confessional faith.

[\[00:38:07\]](#transcript-00-38-07-472) Consider the law and the gospel.

[\[00:38:09\]](#transcript-00-38-09-473) Consider covenant theology and some of these things that we've been talking about for the last few weeks.

[\[00:38:13\]](#transcript-00-38-13-474) Amen.

[\[00:38:16\]](#transcript-00-38-16-475) Yeah, one of the things, Justin, as we're kind of just kind of close, bringing this to a close,

[\[00:38:23\]](#transcript-00-38-23-476) I guess my challenge to you is this: is that Um, there are passages of scripture that I think we either ignore or we We kind of explain away, and we tend to emphasize.

[\[00:38:39\]](#transcript-00-38-39-477) So, here's my challenge to everyone: let all of scripture influence your perspective of God.

[\[00:38:47\]](#transcript-00-38-47-478) This is why Justin and I love confessionalism and reformed theology: it demands all of scripture be used, all of it be used to formulate our understanding of scripture.

[\[00:38:58\]](#transcript-00-38-58-479) For instance, it feels like in the Calvinistic Reformed, Calvinistic Evangelical world, that there's a heavy emphasis on self-examination and assurance, meaning that you do these things to find your assurance.

[\[00:39:12\]](#transcript-00-39-12-480) When you look at the entirety of scripture, there is warning passages for sure for people who are, you know, but some of them are completely taken out of context.

[\[00:39:22\]](#transcript-00-39-22-481) Like when Paul says, examine yourself, that is way out of context of what he was saying.

[\[00:39:27\]](#transcript-00-39-27-482) They were arguing that he got the gospel wrong, and he was like, well, then you should examine yourself because you got your gospel from me.

[\[00:39:34\]](#transcript-00-39-34-483) So if you're, if I'm not saved, you're not saved.

[\[00:39:36\]](#transcript-00-39-36-484) That's what he was saying.

[\[00:39:38\]](#transcript-00-39-38-485) It's important to understand the context there.

[\[00:39:40\]](#transcript-00-39-40-486) But how else do you hear things like, God has not given us a spirit of fear?

[\[00:39:44\]](#transcript-00-39-44-487) Why would he say that?

[\[00:39:45\]](#transcript-00-39-45-488) Because fear was coming in.

[\[00:39:48\]](#transcript-00-39-48-489) Like, am I truly a believer?

[\[00:39:50\]](#transcript-00-39-50-490) If I die, will I rise again?

[\[00:39:52\]](#transcript-00-39-52-491) Right.

[\[00:39:52\]](#transcript-00-39-52-492) And he's like, yes, you're going to rise again.

[\[00:39:55\]](#transcript-00-39-55-493) He who began a good work in you will complete it.

[\[00:39:58\]](#transcript-00-39-58-494) Look unto Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith, right?

[\[00:40:03\]](#transcript-00-40-03-495) I love 1 Peter or 2 Peter says, where your inheritance is kept in heaven, untarnished, unfading, and cannot be removed.

[\[00:40:11\]](#transcript-00-40-11-496) You have to allow all of those passages to inform your understanding of your relationship with God.

[\[00:40:17\]](#transcript-00-40-17-497) This is what Reformed theology has been fighting for.

[\[00:40:20\]](#transcript-00-40-20-498) If you go read the confessions, let me just challenge you.

[\[00:40:22\]](#transcript-00-40-22-499) If you've never read the 1689 London Baptist Confession or the Westminster Confession or the Belgic Confession, you can't walk away with a full-orbed understanding of the entirety of the Christian life from regeneration to glorification and the purpose of

[\[00:40:41\]](#transcript-00-40-41-500) the church in between.

[\[00:40:42\]](#transcript-00-40-42-501) That's what confessionalism is for.

[\[00:40:44\]](#transcript-00-40-44-502) It kind of demands that you look at scripture from every angle versus looking at it from one angle.

[\[00:40:50\]](#transcript-00-40-50-503) Amen.

[\[00:40:51\]](#transcript-00-40-51-504) If this is personal and it's dated in that it's going to, it's going to date this podcast.

[\[00:40:56\]](#transcript-00-40-56-505) I don't even care.

[\[00:40:57\]](#transcript-00-40-57-506) I'm preaching Romans right now, and we need to land this plane.

[\[00:41:00\]](#transcript-00-41-00-507) But I am preaching Romans right now, and what you just said is so true.

[\[00:41:04\]](#transcript-00-41-04-508) Like, studying and preaching Romans with the lenses of law and gospel, like the law and gospel distinction, and with covenant theology categories.

[\[00:41:17\]](#transcript-00-41-17-509) Being grounded in the text, looking at how Paul uses the Old Testament, how he reasons and argues in this letter, the ways that he is teaching the saints in Rome, the doctrines of the faith with the law and

[\[00:41:30\]](#transcript-00-41-30-510) gospel distinction and covenant theology in view, bro, it is flat out incredible.

[\[00:41:34\]](#transcript-00-41-34-511) That's right.

[\[00:41:35\]](#transcript-00-41-35-512) And it does, it takes all of the biblical witness into consideration.

[\[00:41:40\]](#transcript-00-41-40-513) And you're actually making sense of the prophets and the Psalms and Moses and all the things that they wrote, how they all point to Christ and are fulfilled in and through Him.

[\[00:41:52\]](#transcript-00-41-52-514) But you understand how from the beginning, you know, Adam's guilt, because of the covenant of works and his representation, his guilt is counted to us.

[\[00:42:00\]](#transcript-00-42-00-515) And you understand how he represented us all.

[\[00:42:02\]](#transcript-00-42-02-516) But just as Adam did, Christ represents everyone who's united to him.

[\[00:42:06\]](#transcript-00-42-06-517) The law and the gospel, like no one will stand before God in his own righteousness, because in the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed that is given by God to sinners through faith, right?

[\[00:42:18\]](#transcript-00-42-18-518) And so then, Paul crushes everybody with the law for chapters.

[\[00:42:22\]](#transcript-00-42-22-519) You know, and it's like basically it's true.

[\[00:42:25\]](#transcript-00-42-25-520) God rewards those who do good, but nobody does good.

[\[00:42:28\]](#transcript-00-42-28-521) God rewards those who seek Him, but nobody does that either.

[\[00:42:30\]](#transcript-00-42-30-522) And the law shuts everybody's mouth, and that's why the gospel has been revealed.

[\[00:42:35\]](#transcript-00-42-35-523) Right.

[\[00:42:35\]](#transcript-00-42-35-524) And it's anyway, like all of these categories, bro, they do a justice to the scriptures, they take all of the scripture into account, and they make much of Christ.

[\[00:42:46\]](#transcript-00-42-46-525) And so I'm happy to sort of plant my flag here, just saying it's really good.

[\[00:42:50\]](#transcript-00-42-50-526) And not being facetious, but come on in.

[\[00:42:53\]](#transcript-00-42-53-527) The water is nice.

[\[00:42:54\]](#transcript-00-42-54-528) And man, it's sweet.

[\[00:42:56\]](#transcript-00-42-56-529) And I think you'll find that you're filled with gratitude and humility.

[\[00:42:59\]](#transcript-00-42-59-530) I have one illustration and then I'll be done.

[\[00:43:01\]](#transcript-00-43-01-531) It's not a long one.

[\[00:43:01\]](#transcript-00-43-01-532) There's a movie called You're closing it down.

[\[00:43:03\]](#transcript-00-43-03-533) So you get this and then you shut it down.

[\[00:43:05\]](#transcript-00-43-05-534) Have you seen the movie yesterday?

[\[00:43:06\]](#transcript-00-43-06-535) It's like in 2019.

[\[00:43:08\]](#transcript-00-43-08-536) I have not.

[\[00:43:08\]](#transcript-00-43-08-537) Okay, so this, I'm going to ruin it for anybody who has not seen the movie.

[\[00:43:11\]](#transcript-00-43-11-538) You can go watch it.

[\[00:43:12\]](#transcript-00-43-12-539) Spoiler alert, including me, apparently.

[\[00:43:13\]](#transcript-00-43-13-540) So I'm being ruined just along with you.

[\[00:43:15\]](#transcript-00-43-15-541) Yeah, but it's a great movie because within five minutes, I'm not spoiling it.

[\[00:43:19\]](#transcript-00-43-19-542) You'll get it.

[\[00:43:19\]](#transcript-00-43-19-543) But the guy gets hit.

[\[00:43:21\]](#transcript-00-43-21-544) He's a musician.

[\[00:43:22\]](#transcript-00-43-22-545) He gets hit while riding Martin's bike and he wakes up in the hospital.

[\[00:43:26\]](#transcript-00-43-26-546) And when he wakes up, nobody begins to realize nobody knows who the Beatles are, like they don't exist.

[\[00:43:34\]](#transcript-00-43-34-547) And so he keeps singing a song one day, just like, you know, oh, like, you know, yesterday.

[\[00:43:38\]](#transcript-00-43-38-548) So he starts singing it.

[\[00:43:39\]](#transcript-00-43-39-549) And everybody's like, that song is amazing.

[\[00:43:41\]](#transcript-00-43-41-550) They're like, dude, that's the Beatles.

[\[00:43:42\]](#transcript-00-43-42-551) They're like, who's that?

[\[00:43:43\]](#transcript-00-43-43-552) And he begins to realize.

[\[00:43:44\]](#transcript-00-43-44-553) So he becomes world famous because he's singing all the Beatles songs, right?

[\[00:43:48\]](#transcript-00-43-48-554) right, That nobody knows.

[\[00:43:49\]](#transcript-00-43-49-555) Right.

[\[00:43:49\]](#transcript-00-43-49-556) Well, that's how Justin and I kind of feel like true.

[\[00:43:51\]](#transcript-00-43-51-557) I feel like, hey, guys, this is like this.

[\[00:43:54\]](#transcript-00-43-54-558) I know it's new to you, and you've never heard of it, but this is old.

[\[00:43:57\]](#transcript-00-43-57-559) It's so old, it's new.

[\[00:43:59\]](#transcript-00-43-59-560) So, please don't, if you're listening to us, like, this is amazing, this is not John and Justin.

[\[00:44:03\]](#transcript-00-44-03-561) We're not brilliant.

[\[00:44:04\]](#transcript-00-44-04-562) We're not brilliant.

[\[00:44:05\]](#transcript-00-44-05-563) We're re-singing songs that were hits that unfortunately have been lost because of pietism, revivalism.

[\[00:44:12\]](#transcript-00-44-12-564) And I'll tell you this: because Satan has done his job, he wants to suppress the truth.

[\[00:44:17\]](#transcript-00-44-17-565) And so, our encouragement to you is: keep looking, keep reforming, Semper Reformanda, always reforming.

[\[00:44:22\]](#transcript-00-44-22-566) Go back to the font, go back to ad fontes, go back to the fount, and realize there's more to the text than just Calvinism.

[\[00:44:29\]](#transcript-00-44-29-567) Yeah, and keep taking the clutter off of the gospel.

[\[00:44:32\]](#transcript-00-44-32-568) Yeah.

[\[00:44:32\]](#transcript-00-44-32-569) And there's like not losing our first love has a lot to do with that.

[\[00:44:36\]](#transcript-00-44-36-570) And not hiding your light under a bushel.

[\[00:44:38\]](#transcript-00-44-38-571) It's like, man, let's keep the light is Christ, period.

[\[00:44:42\]](#transcript-00-44-42-572) And so we're trying to keep him preeminent in everything that we do.

[\[00:44:45\]](#transcript-00-44-45-573) And the Confessional Reformed Faith does a great job of that.

[\[00:44:48\]](#transcript-00-44-48-574) And so we're happy to be where we are.

[\[00:44:50\]](#transcript-00-44-50-575) Awesome.

[\[00:44:51\]](#transcript-00-44-51-576) All right.

[\[00:44:51\]](#transcript-00-44-51-577) We'll see you guys next week.

[\[00:44:52\]](#transcript-00-44-52-578) Hey, everyone.

[\[00:44:53\]](#transcript-00-44-53-579) Before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you.

[\[00:44:56\]](#transcript-00-44-56-580) And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it.

[\[00:45:00\]](#transcript-00-45-00-581) But we also need your support, and it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

[\[00:45:05\]](#transcript-00-45-05-582) So, the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.

---

### What Is Reformed Theology?

*Published: September 20, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-is-reformed-theology*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: reformed, Reformed Theology, what is reformed theology*

We often get the questions, “What does it mean to be Reformed?” and “What is Reformed theology? In today’s episode, Jon and Justin answer these questions by discussing five historical tenets of Reformed theology: covenant theology, Calvinism, confessionalism, ordinary means of grace, and the law/gospel distinction. (The guys sneak in one additional matter of doctrine at the end, as well.)

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https://youtu.be/wHF5dOWS46c 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:07\]](#transcript-00-00-07-1) Hi, this is Justin.

[\[00:00:08\]](#transcript-00-00-08-2) Today on Theocast, Jon and I are going to answer the question: what is Reformed theology?

[\[00:00:14\]](#transcript-00-00-14-3) As pastors, we get this question a lot, and here at Theocast, we get this question quite often.

[\[00:00:19\]](#transcript-00-00-19-4) So we thought we would go back and grab historical categories of doctrine that Reformed Christians have agreed on and held dearly through the centuries, and have the conversation oriented around those.

[\[00:00:30\]](#transcript-00-00-30-5) We hope that this is clarifying.

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-6) We hope it's helpful and encouraging to you.

[\[00:00:33\]](#transcript-00-00-33-7) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:34\]](#transcript-00-00-34-8) If you're new to Theocast, we know that many people who start listening to us struggle with their assurance.

[\[00:00:40\]](#transcript-00-00-40-9) What does it even mean to walk by faith, or how do you rest in Christ?

[\[00:00:44\]](#transcript-00-00-44-10) So, we put together a free e-book called Rest, and it's where you can learn about the sufficiency of Christ and the differences between the law and the gospel.

[\[00:00:52\]](#transcript-00-00-52-11) And that's an important distinction.

[\[00:00:54\]](#transcript-00-00-54-12) If you'd like to learn more, just go to our website theocast.org.

[\[00:01:06\]](#transcript-00-01-06-13) Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ because He is enough for salvation, for forgiveness, for righteousness, and eternal life.

[\[00:01:17\]](#transcript-00-01-17-14) Here at Theocast, we have conversations about the Christian life from a confessional, reformed, and pastoral perspective.

[\[00:01:23\]](#transcript-00-01-23-15) And we are seeking to clarify the gospel and reclaim the purpose of the kingdom of Christ.

[\[00:01:29\]](#transcript-00-01-29-16) Around the microphones today, as normal, is Jon Moffitt, who is the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:01:37\]](#transcript-00-01-37-17) And then I am with John, and I'm Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:01:43\]](#transcript-00-01-43-18) So, yes, this does mean we're recording from remote locations in our respective studios, but we get to see one another's faces via video interface.

[\[00:01:51\]](#transcript-00-01-51-19) We thank God for technology, even though I'm not necessarily the biggest techie, John.

[\[00:01:55\]](#transcript-00-01-55-20) We're having an important conversation today.

[\[00:01:57\]](#transcript-00-01-57-21) Yes, we are.

[\[00:01:57\]](#transcript-00-01-57-22) So, I don't want to Waste a lot of time here..

[\[00:02:00\]](#transcript-00-02-00-23) But I want to make a couple of announcements, or we do.

[\[00:02:02\]](#transcript-00-02-02-24) I'm going to give the first one and then you'll give the second one.

[\[00:02:05\]](#transcript-00-02-05-25) Sure.

[\[00:02:05\]](#transcript-00-02-05-26) The first announcement, just to continue to put this on people's radar screens, is a grace Reformed network event.

[\[00:02:10\]](#transcript-00-02-10-27) So, you and I, John, are on the board of directors for something called the Grace Reformed Network, which is a network of confessional Baptist churches that we hope to see formally started next month.

[\[00:02:19\]](#transcript-00-02-19-28) That's right.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-29) And so, October 3rd through the 5th in Nashville, Tennessee.

[\[00:02:24\]](#transcript-00-02-24-30) We have an event.

[\[00:02:26\]](#transcript-00-02-26-31) The first two days, October 3rd and the 4th, are open to anyone to come.

[\[00:02:30\]](#transcript-00-02-30-32) The last day is reserved for representatives of churches who plan to be a part of the network.

[\[00:02:34\]](#transcript-00-02-34-33) But there are still a few registration slots available.

[\[00:02:37\]](#transcript-00-02-37-34) So if you go to gracereformnetwork.org, it's all pretty straightforward and self-explanatory.

[\[00:02:41\]](#transcript-00-02-41-35) If you would love to come and hear teaching on confessionalism and law and gospel distinction and covenant theology and saint-centered reality, along with a sermon from John and me, the respective evenings.

[\[00:02:51\]](#transcript-00-02-51-36) We'd love to meet you.

[\[00:02:52\]](#transcript-00-02-52-37) We'd love to have you there.

[\[00:02:54\]](#transcript-00-02-54-38) Should be a really good time.

[\[00:02:55\]](#transcript-00-02-55-39) So register for that event, and maybe we'll see you in a month in Tennessee.

[\[00:02:59\]](#transcript-00-02-59-40) Yeah, it's fun.

[\[00:03:00\]](#transcript-00-03-00-41) It's starting to fill up.

[\[00:03:01\]](#transcript-00-03-01-42) Second announcement: if you haven't heard about it yet, we have a brand new app that has everything that we've ever produced, and it's a social app.

[\[00:03:08\]](#transcript-00-03-08-43) So it's a community, it's what it's called, Theocast community.

[\[00:03:11\]](#transcript-00-03-11-44) At this point, there's well over 500 of you're in there.

[\[00:03:14\]](#transcript-00-03-14-45) There's a free access in there if you want to come in and just interact and see what the material is.

[\[00:03:18\]](#transcript-00-03-18-46) And then, if you want to support what we're doing and be a part of the education material and classes that myself and Justin are teaching, you can support us and be a part of that as well.

[\[00:03:28\]](#transcript-00-03-28-47) You just go to theocastcommunity.org and learn more about that.

[\[00:03:31\]](#transcript-00-03-31-48) All right, Justin, that was pretty quick, but let's get into the meat and bones because really, this is the backbone of our podcast and our ministry and our pastorate, everything.

[\[00:03:41\]](#transcript-00-03-41-49) So, yeah, in many ways.

[\[00:03:42\]](#transcript-00-03-42-50) Yeah.

[\[00:03:42\]](#transcript-00-03-42-51) Well, as you can see, we're going to be talking about what is reformed theology.

[\[00:03:47\]](#transcript-00-03-47-52) And thankfully, in the last 50 years, it feels like it's on the rise.

[\[00:03:53\]](#transcript-00-03-53-53) It's the awareness has gone up, which is good.

[\[00:03:56\]](#transcript-00-03-56-54) Justin and I have benefited from the new neo-Calvinism movement.

[\[00:04:03\]](#transcript-00-04-03-55) That sparked our interest.

[\[00:04:05\]](#transcript-00-04-05-56) Not in this episode.

[\[00:04:06\]](#transcript-00-04-06-57) It's been a good gateway drug.

[\[00:04:07\]](#transcript-00-04-07-58) It's right for many people.

[\[00:04:08\]](#transcript-00-04-08-59) Right.

[\[00:04:09\]](#transcript-00-04-09-60) Not in, oh, for sure, for sure, for me.

[\[00:04:11\]](#transcript-00-04-11-61) But not in this episode.

[\[00:04:12\]](#transcript-00-04-12-62) But next week we're going to talk a little bit more about biographically about our experience in reform theology versus Calvinism.

[\[00:04:18\]](#transcript-00-04-18-63) Why are those two things distinct?

[\[00:04:20\]](#transcript-00-04-20-64) And with those movements, the neo-Calvinistic movement is different from the Reformed theology.

[\[00:04:24\]](#transcript-00-04-24-65) So, today we're going to set up what is reformed theology so that next week will make more sense.

[\[00:04:29\]](#transcript-00-04-29-66) But I will, the one thing that Justin and I are a little concerned about is that there are if you ever met somebody who gets excited about something new they've learned and they just kind of come and dispute

[\[00:04:43\]](#transcript-00-04-43-67) everything that they have, but they don't, they haven't had it all figured out yet, or they hadn't learned all the information.

[\[00:04:48\]](#transcript-00-04-48-68) And so it sounds half right, and the rest of it sounds crazy and disconnected.

[\[00:04:54\]](#transcript-00-04-54-69) And that's kind of how Reformed theology, unfortunately, has unfolded through the years where anything that's old and conservative and somewhat Calvinistic becomes reformed.

[\[00:05:04\]](#transcript-00-05-04-70) And so, what we want to do is explain why the pillars of reformed theology are in place.

[\[00:05:11\]](#transcript-00-05-11-71) They're there historically.

[\[00:05:13\]](#transcript-00-05-13-72) They're there over theological debates and they have been examined for hundreds of years now.

[\[00:05:19\]](#transcript-00-05-19-73) And Justin and I embrace all five of these pillars because it really helps govern our church and our hearts and keeps us safe as we engage in God's word.

[\[00:05:29\]](#transcript-00-05-29-74) So, sola fide, I mean, sola scriptura for sure, but we're going to talk about how these are really argumentations from scripture that we think guide and direct the church.

[\[00:05:40\]](#transcript-00-05-40-75) Go ahead.

[\[00:05:41\]](#transcript-00-05-41-76) Two quick public service announcements.

[\[00:05:43\]](#transcript-00-05-43-77) One, I use the term gateway drug, which has a negative connotation.

[\[00:05:47\]](#transcript-00-05-47-78) And in reality, I should have just said that New Calvinism, the young, restless, and reformed movement, so-called, has been a really good gateway and kind of launching off point for many people.

[\[00:05:57\]](#transcript-00-05-57-79) Over the last 20 to 30 years, people have continued to encounter old things and have bumped up against the historic confessions of faith and the like, which is a lot of what we're going to be talking about today.

[\[00:06:07\]](#transcript-00-06-07-80) That's PSA number one.

[\[00:06:08\]](#transcript-00-06-08-81) PSA number two is that John and I are articulating what we would call five pillars or five tenets of reformed theology.

[\[00:06:14\]](#transcript-00-06-14-82) We do not claim that this is all that can be said about reform theology wholesale, but these are five sort of headers that we find really useful for ourselves and for our congregations.

[\[00:06:26\]](#transcript-00-06-26-83) And we see these things historically attested to.

[\[00:06:30\]](#transcript-00-06-30-84) And so we feel good about these five things giving a good presentation of what it means to be reformed in one's theological orientation.

[\[00:06:37\]](#transcript-00-06-37-85) So, yeah, this is an episode we did in the past, but we thought we'd refresh it.

[\[00:06:41\]](#transcript-00-06-41-86) It's been a while, add some new ideas, ways of thinking about it.

[\[00:06:45\]](#transcript-00-06-45-87) So, Justin, I'll throw it over to you.

[\[00:06:46\]](#transcript-00-06-46-88) So, to get us started with what we call the three C's.

[\[00:06:51\]](#transcript-00-06-51-89) Yeah, so we got the three C's and then two additional points, but C number one: a major tenet of reformed theology is covenant theology.

[\[00:06:58\]](#transcript-00-06-58-90) It is not wrong to say that reform theology is covenant theology.

[\[00:07:03\]](#transcript-00-07-03-91) For sure.

[\[00:07:04\]](#transcript-00-07-04-92) So, to we'll get into this more next week, but to claim to be reformed in one's theological posture and not be covenantal in an historical tri-covenantal sense, which I'm going to outline in just a minute, is kind of

[\[00:07:18\]](#transcript-00-07-18-93) a contradiction in terms.

[\[00:07:20\]](#transcript-00-07-20-94) Really is, yeah.

[\[00:07:21\]](#transcript-00-07-21-95) Yeah.

[\[00:07:21\]](#transcript-00-07-21-96) And so we could get into the nuances that exist.

[\[00:07:25\]](#transcript-00-07-25-97) There's some nuance disagreement amongst those of us who hold to covenant theology, and we'll talk more about that probably in the months to come on some other episodes.

[\[00:07:33\]](#transcript-00-07-33-98) But the major thing that we want to highlight first here is that Reformed theologians through history have all held to what we would call the tri-covenantal framework of Scripture, the three major covenants, the first of which being the

[\[00:07:45\]](#transcript-00-07-45-99) covenant of redemption that is made in eternity past amongst the Godhead, most pointedly between the Father and the Son, concerning the redemption of a people.

[\[00:07:54\]](#transcript-00-07-54-100) And the Son would come and accomplish the work of salvation, and then what he did would be given to his people.

[\[00:08:00\]](#transcript-00-08-00-101) His reward for the work done would be to inherit this people, resurrected and glorified in the new heavens and the new earth with him forever.

[\[00:08:07\]](#transcript-00-08-07-102) So, there that is the covenant of redemption, oftentimes referred to as the Pactum Salutis.

[\[00:08:11\]](#transcript-00-08-11-103) The next covenant is the covenant of works, which God made with Adam in the garden.

[\[00:08:16\]](#transcript-00-08-16-104) And we understand there that Adam represented the entire human race and he had the potential to earn eternal life and blessedness through his obedience and keeping of the covenant, or he could earn and receive death, spiritual, temporal, and

[\[00:08:32\]](#transcript-00-08-32-105) eternal death for breaking the covenant.

[\[00:08:34\]](#transcript-00-08-34-106) And so that covenant is referred to as the covenant of works because it was contingent upon the rewards of that covenant, or no, were contingent upon Adam's obedience.

[\[00:08:43\]](#transcript-00-08-43-107) They were contingent upon his works.

[\[00:08:46\]](#transcript-00-08-46-108) So that's the second of the three major covenants.

[\[00:08:48\]](#transcript-00-08-48-109) The third is the covenant of grace.

[\[00:08:50\]](#transcript-00-08-50-110) Now, the way John and I would articulate this is this covenant is promised in Genesis 3:15, and it is revealed increasingly by farther steps throughout the Old Testament in other covenants that are subservient to it, and then is

[\[00:09:03\]](#transcript-00-09-03-111) established and accomplished through Jesus in the new covenant.

[\[00:09:07\]](#transcript-00-09-07-112) And so we see from Genesis 3:15 onward the unfolding of the accomplishment of that promise that there would come one who would crush the head of the serpent and redeem his people.

[\[00:09:16\]](#transcript-00-09-16-113) So, those three major covenants are critical for our understanding of how the Bible hangs together and of how there has been one plan of God from before all time to save a people that would live, as I said

[\[00:09:29\]](#transcript-00-09-29-114) earlier, resurrected and glorified with God the Son in the new heavens and the new earth forever.

[\[00:09:33\]](#transcript-00-09-33-115) Good.

[\[00:09:34\]](#transcript-00-09-34-116) Yeah, and the reason that we would put such a firm, you know, kind of stamp on this is that it influences how you interpret scripture?

[\[00:09:44\]](#transcript-00-09-44-117) You know, looking at the Bible from a Christocentric standpoint where Christ is the point, and really it's a redemption, it's a story of redemption.

[\[00:09:53\]](#transcript-00-09-53-118) Like it's the ark of the whole Bible is the redemptive story of how God saves sinners.

[\[00:09:59\]](#transcript-00-09-59-119) Now, there's more in the Bible than that.

[\[00:10:00\]](#transcript-00-10-00-120) Sometimes people think that's what we're saying is that's the only thing the Bible is about.

[\[00:10:03\]](#transcript-00-10-03-121) It's about God's kingdom and his glory.

[\[00:10:05\]](#transcript-00-10-05-122) There's so much that's wrapped up in there, but it is the redemptive story of the beginning to the end.

[\[00:10:11\]](#transcript-00-10-11-123) And so, the reason why covenant theology has been so powerful in the reform movement is because of the emphasis that it places on Christ in all of scripture.

[\[00:10:23\]](#transcript-00-10-23-124) And when you compare this to other hermeneutics of the Bible that are popular, it's not that Christ is absent, it's this the emphasis seems to change.

[\[00:10:32\]](#transcript-00-10-32-125) And we would argue that the emphasis comes from the text.

[\[00:10:35\]](#transcript-00-10-35-126) We're not putting it into the text.

[\[00:10:37\]](#transcript-00-10-37-127) So, this is not an apologetic for covenant theology.

[\[00:10:40\]](#transcript-00-10-40-128) Justin and I have done multiple series.

[\[00:10:43\]](#transcript-00-10-43-129) We'll put these in the notes below.

[\[00:10:44\]](#transcript-00-10-44-130) We did a five-part series as an introduction to covenant theology, and then we did a three-part series on the implications of covenant theology.

[\[00:10:50\]](#transcript-00-10-50-131) As you like, we basically go through and give the arguments of why these three covenants should be seen in scripture.

[\[00:10:56\]](#transcript-00-10-56-132) So, that's below.

[\[00:10:57\]](#transcript-00-10-57-133) We'd encourage you to go interact with that.

[\[00:10:59\]](#transcript-00-10-59-134) But, you know, Justin, I think that you and I would say: if we only talked about covenant theology on this podcast every week, I don't know if I would ever run out of things to say because the covenant

[\[00:11:09\]](#transcript-00-11-09-135) that Christ made with us is never ending, which means the benefits are immeasurable in my estimation, which is we preach from that covenantal perspective every time that we get up in the pulpit or get behind these mics.

[\[00:11:23\]](#transcript-00-11-23-136) Right.

[\[00:11:24\]](#transcript-00-11-24-137) And the covenant of grace, in particular, as opposed to the covenant of works, is made between God and his elect people.

[\[00:11:31\]](#transcript-00-11-31-138) And what happens in the covenant of grace is the merits of Jesus, the Redeemer, are given to sinners and received completely by faith.

[\[00:11:40\]](#transcript-00-11-40-139) And so we don't do anything.

[\[00:11:42\]](#transcript-00-11-42-140) And so, in that sense, too, this covenantal understanding, in particular of works and grace, helps us to see the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and how He has done everything necessary to save his people.

[\[00:11:53\]](#transcript-00-11-53-141) And it does, as you said so beautifully, helps us keep the main point in view that the Bible is the story of God's plan of redemption, and it's accomplished through Christ.

[\[00:12:04\]](#transcript-00-12-04-142) And so it keeps us between the ditches and it keeps us on the rails when it comes to how we understand any one particular passage.

[\[00:12:12\]](#transcript-00-12-12-143) And so it's very important for us.

[\[00:12:13\]](#transcript-00-12-13-144) All right.

[\[00:12:13\]](#transcript-00-12-13-145) So that's number one: covenant theology.

[\[00:12:16\]](#transcript-00-12-16-146) And now we're going to move on to number two.

[\[00:12:18\]](#transcript-00-12-18-147) Yeah.

[\[00:12:19\]](#transcript-00-12-19-148) Which is John.

[\[00:12:20\]](#transcript-00-12-20-149) Yeah, the probably the popular one, Calvinism, right?

[\[00:12:23\]](#transcript-00-12-23-150) Yeah.

[\[00:12:23\]](#transcript-00-12-23-151) I'm going to give you a really quick explanation of what it is, just theologically, and then we'll talk about the kind of historical points.

[\[00:12:30\]](#transcript-00-12-30-152) And again, we've done multiple series on this.

[\[00:12:33\]](#transcript-00-12-33-153) We'll put the notes below, or you could just go to our new app and type in Calvinism, and you'll see it all there.

[\[00:12:39\]](#transcript-00-12-39-154) So, Calvinism really is a discussion of how you understand the nature of man and the nature of God.

[\[00:12:48\]](#transcript-00-12-48-155) So, anthropology and theology, right?

[\[00:12:50\]](#transcript-00-12-50-156) So, this debate is a very significant one, and it's been happening for hundreds of years now.

[\[00:12:54\]](#transcript-00-12-54-157) I mean, all the way back to Augustine and Pelagius, we're debating this, which is: does man have the capacity to save himself by means of his own will, or is man dead in his trespasses and sins, right?

[\[00:13:06\]](#transcript-00-13-06-158) His eyes are blind, his ears are deaf.

[\[00:13:09\]](#transcript-00-13-09-159) Must the Holy Spirit, John 3, must the Holy Spirit come and bring new birth, a new birth that Nicodemus didn't even understand.

[\[00:13:17\]](#transcript-00-13-17-160) That's the debate.

[\[00:13:18\]](#transcript-00-13-18-161) And unfortunately, it got connected to a man's name.

[\[00:13:22\]](#transcript-00-13-22-162) We're not going to get into that.

[\[00:13:23\]](#transcript-00-13-23-163) We do in our series, but the man's name really was: there was an argumentation between should we be amending the confession or not?

[\[00:13:31\]](#transcript-00-13-31-164) And the answer to that was no.

[\[00:13:32\]](#transcript-00-13-32-165) We think it's sufficient to say that unless God, through the preaching of the gospel and through the means of the Spirit, comes and regenerates a man's heart or a woman's heart, they will not have faith in Christ.

[\[00:13:44\]](#transcript-00-13-44-166) That's what Calvinism is.

[\[00:13:45\]](#transcript-00-13-45-167) Now, this debate broke down into five areas of how that would work, right?

[\[00:13:50\]](#transcript-00-13-50-168) And it's known as tulip, if you want to look that up.

[\[00:13:54\]](#transcript-00-13-54-169) And the five points of Calvinism.

[\[00:13:56\]](#transcript-00-13-56-170) The five points of Calvinism.

[\[00:13:57\]](#transcript-00-13-57-171) And, you know, we can quickly go through them, but you can look them up.

[\[00:14:00\]](#transcript-00-14-00-172) And I'm not going to really spend time explaining those five points.

[\[00:14:04\]](#transcript-00-14-04-173) I would encourage you to do so.

[\[00:14:05\]](#transcript-00-14-05-174) But the reason why we connected into Reformed theology is that the way in which we understand Scripture is that we trust and believe in a sovereign God who creates and sustains the world, and that without his moving and

[\[00:14:20\]](#transcript-00-14-20-175) acting, sinners do not go from death to life.

[\[00:14:25\]](#transcript-00-14-25-176) This is why Paul specifically writes passages like you were dead in your trespasses and sins.

[\[00:14:30\]](#transcript-00-14-30-177) He made you alive.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-178) He means Christ through the means of the Holy Spirit.

[\[00:14:35\]](#transcript-00-14-35-179) So each one of the points, when you go through it, it points this out.

[\[00:14:39\]](#transcript-00-14-39-180) Like point number one is total depravity or total inability, the capacity of the human in its will.

[\[00:14:46\]](#transcript-00-14-46-181) You were born dead.

[\[00:14:47\]](#transcript-00-14-47-182) So you had physical capacities with a dead spirit is how we kind of describe that to be.

[\[00:14:53\]](#transcript-00-14-53-183) And this is where the rest of the points kind of fall into place, explaining what we'd call really how salvation happens.

[\[00:15:01\]](#transcript-00-15-01-184) So, Calvinism really is the argument of were you saved because you chose to be saved, or were you saved because God saved you because you were dead?

[\[00:15:08\]](#transcript-00-15-08-185) That's the debate.

[\[00:15:10\]](#transcript-00-15-10-186) And I'll just let you speak into that, but I think that's the general idea.

[\[00:15:13\]](#transcript-00-15-13-187) If you're new to Calvinism, it's really your will versus God's will.

[\[00:15:17\]](#transcript-00-15-17-188) And what we're here to say is Reformed theology, I think, argues pretty clearly from a Calvinistic standpoint that is without God and His movement, we would remain dead in our sins.

[\[00:15:27\]](#transcript-00-15-27-189) Yeah, I mean, in a I mean, not in a reductionistic sense, I think this is appropriate.

[\[00:15:33\]](#transcript-00-15-33-190) Calvinism can be summarized as God accomplishes all of his purposes.

[\[00:15:38\]](#transcript-00-15-38-191) One, two, salvation is of the Lord.

[\[00:15:40\]](#transcript-00-15-40-192) That's right.

[\[00:15:41\]](#transcript-00-15-41-193) He saves.

[\[00:15:42\]](#transcript-00-15-42-194) That is Calvinism reduced down to a very digestible level.

[\[00:15:47\]](#transcript-00-15-47-195) So, Jonah 2:9, salvation is of the Lord.

[\[00:15:50\]](#transcript-00-15-50-196) God is the Savior of sinners.

[\[00:15:51\]](#transcript-00-15-51-197) Jesus, actually, when he came to accomplish the work of redemption, he did it all.

[\[00:15:58\]](#transcript-00-15-58-198) And he didn't just make salvation possible for people.

[\[00:16:02\]](#transcript-00-16-02-199) And then we need to actualize it through something that we do or an act of our will, but Jesus actually saved all of his people.

[\[00:16:10\]](#transcript-00-16-10-200) And the work is really done.

[\[00:16:11\]](#transcript-00-16-11-201) That's a piece of this as well.

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-202) And also, how God saves, like you alluded to this too, John.

[\[00:16:17\]](#transcript-00-16-17-203) We believe that God works in redemption.

[\[00:16:20\]](#transcript-00-16-20-204) We believe that God works directly upon the human heart to impart faith, to give life, to regenerate, and to unite his people to Jesus, who is the forgiveness of their sins, their righteousness, and their eternal life?

[\[00:16:36\]](#transcript-00-16-36-205) And so that is what we mean when we talk about God saving sinners, that He is the actor and He acts directly on the human heart in a way that saves us.

[\[00:16:44\]](#transcript-00-16-44-206) That's right.

[\[00:16:45\]](#transcript-00-16-45-207) Just a couple of really brief historical comments for those out there that might be thinking, well, you know, where does this all come from?

[\[00:16:51\]](#transcript-00-16-51-208) As you've already kind of mentioned, some of this stuff.

[\[00:16:54\]](#transcript-00-16-54-209) In the 17th century, there were followers of a theologian named Jacob Arminius, who wrote a document called the Remonstrance, where they raised issue with five major areas of doctrine as it had been understood historically in the tradition of

[\[00:17:07\]](#transcript-00-17-07-210) orthodoxy.

[\[00:17:08\]](#transcript-00-17-08-211) So then there was a synod, the Synod of Dort in 1618, 1619, that convened.

[\[00:17:13\]](#transcript-00-17-13-212) It was an ecumenical group of Reformed pastors, as we would call them looking back, Reformed churchmen, who debated the remonstrance of the Arminians, and then they came up with responses, doctrines, canons of the Synod of Dort arranged under

[\[00:17:27\]](#transcript-00-17-27-213) those five headers, those five objections.

[\[00:17:30\]](#transcript-00-17-30-214) And so those five heads of doctrine are what we get the five points of Calvinism.

[\[00:17:34\]](#transcript-00-17-34-215) So this didn't just come out of nowhere, and it wasn't an offensive thing where people historically said, we're going to come up with these five major points and then really enforce these and teach these and preach these.

[\[00:17:45\]](#transcript-00-17-45-216) But in fact, they came to be in the first place as a defense of Orthodox doctrine.

[\[00:17:51\]](#transcript-00-17-51-217) So, just a brief comment there.

[\[00:17:53\]](#transcript-00-17-53-218) No, that's good.

[\[00:17:54\]](#transcript-00-17-54-219) And I will say that this affects your ministry and how you interact with people.

[\[00:18:00\]](#transcript-00-18-00-220) If you believe, you know, it really comes down to you're apologetic and how you approach people.

[\[00:18:05\]](#transcript-00-18-05-221) If you believe, you're presupposing your presuppositionalism, you're realizing that this person cannot be logicked into heaven, that the gospel has to be proclaimed, the Holy Spirit has to come, then that changes how you do church and evangelism, and

[\[00:18:20\]](#transcript-00-18-20-222) it changes how you counsel and shepherd people.

[\[00:18:22\]](#transcript-00-18-22-223) It changes how you see the world.

[\[00:18:24\]](#transcript-00-18-24-224) Yeah, people don't need to be convinced to change their mind, they need a supernatural gift to do so, and so, this is why in Reformed theology, it's been so important that this is one of the main pillars because

[\[00:18:35\]](#transcript-00-18-35-225) it influences how you do ministry and how you see life.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-226) Yeah.

[\[00:18:39\]](#transcript-00-18-39-227) And as you said, Calvinism finds itself firmly entrenched within the Augustinian tradition.

[\[00:18:44\]](#transcript-00-18-44-228) That's right.

[\[00:18:44\]](#transcript-00-18-44-229) So it's not new in the history of the church.

[\[00:18:47\]](#transcript-00-18-47-230) Hey, guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

[\[00:18:52\]](#transcript-00-18-52-231) So where do you go?

[\[00:18:53\]](#transcript-00-18-53-232) How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources.

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-233) We have started something called the Theocast community.

[\[00:19:00\]](#transcript-00-19-00-234) We're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like-minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions.

[\[00:19:11\]](#transcript-00-19-11-235) You can go check it out.

[\[00:19:12\]](#transcript-00-19-12-236) The link is in the description below.

[\[00:19:14\]](#transcript-00-19-14-237) Just to recap, point one: covenant theology.

[\[00:19:17\]](#transcript-00-19-17-238) Second major tenet of Reformed theology is Calvinism.

[\[00:19:20\]](#transcript-00-19-20-239) We're now moving on to the third, the third of the C's, which is confessionalism.

[\[00:19:25\]](#transcript-00-19-25-240) So, Reformed theology is confessional in its orientation and its posture.

[\[00:19:30\]](#transcript-00-19-30-241) And I'll get us started here with just a few thoughts.

[\[00:19:33\]](#transcript-00-19-33-242) To be confessional means that we have a theology, a piety, and a practice.

[\[00:19:38\]](#transcript-00-19-38-243) And let me just define the theology, an understanding of God, piety, godliness, a way of godliness, practice the way we do church.

[\[00:19:46\]](#transcript-00-19-46-244) All right, so we have a theology, piety, and practice that is articulated in a confession of faith that was produced in the era of the Protestant Reformation.

[\[00:19:54\]](#transcript-00-19-54-245) So that is the kind of low-hanging fruit.

[\[00:19:56\]](#transcript-00-19-56-246) First thing we would say.

[\[00:19:57\]](#transcript-00-19-57-247) I think whenever you talk about confessionalism, that's about the only category that people have in their minds: is that you appeal to a confession.

[\[00:20:04\]](#transcript-00-20-04-248) And we're going to talk about that more in just a minute.

[\[00:20:06\]](#transcript-00-20-06-249) But in addition to that, we would say that to be confessional is to also have a theology, piety, and practice that is grounded in the objective work of Christ for sinners.

[\[00:20:16\]](#transcript-00-20-16-250) So, objective, meaning it exists outside of us and it stands unaffected by us in terms of how we're feeling or how we're doing.

[\[00:20:24\]](#transcript-00-20-24-251) Our subjective response or subjective feelings about what Christ accomplished do not change what he has done for us.

[\[00:20:32\]](#transcript-00-20-32-252) And so that's an emphasis of confessionalism.

[\[00:20:35\]](#transcript-00-20-35-253) You could also say that it's a declarative reality, too.

[\[00:20:38\]](#transcript-00-20-38-254) It's done.

[\[00:20:39\]](#transcript-00-20-39-255) An emphasis on the fact that everything is finished, and these truths about Jesus are to be believed.

[\[00:20:45\]](#transcript-00-20-45-256) We don't do anything, we believe in him.

[\[00:20:47\]](#transcript-00-20-47-257) We trust in Christ and thereby receive everything that he's done for us.

[\[00:20:51\]](#transcript-00-20-51-258) Next, we would say that to be confessional is to have a theology, piety, and practice that is grounded in the local church.

[\[00:20:58\]](#transcript-00-20-58-259) It is inherently church-shaped, this confessional Christian life, and devotion is church-shaped as a Christian from a confessional perspective.

[\[00:21:06\]](#transcript-00-21-06-260) And we're going to talk more in a minute about the ordinary means of grace.

[\[00:21:09\]](#transcript-00-21-09-261) And that's how we understand that faith is imparted and sustained and strengthened.

[\[00:21:14\]](#transcript-00-21-14-262) And, John, last comment before I throw it over to you.

[\[00:21:18\]](#transcript-00-21-18-263) Confessional Protestants, confessional reformed Christians historically have also shied away from what we would call a theology of glory and have emphasized what would be called a theology of the cross, where the Christian life is ordinary.

[\[00:21:36\]](#transcript-00-21-36-264) It can even be difficult, mundane, filled with suffering.

[\[00:21:40\]](#transcript-00-21-40-265) We live it in the context of the local church.

[\[00:21:41\]](#transcript-00-21-41-266) All that's true, but the Christian life is not about just making one's way from this great spiritual experience to this next great spiritual experience to this next spiritual high.

[\[00:21:51\]](#transcript-00-21-51-267) But in reality, it's about learning to trust Christ in the midst of weakness and in the midst of the battle against the corruption of the flesh.

[\[00:21:59\]](#transcript-00-21-59-268) So that's a confessional theological posture.

[\[00:22:02\]](#transcript-00-22-02-269) And I trust that some of those things might be new to the listener, but they're helpful for us to have in our minds.

[\[00:22:08\]](#transcript-00-22-08-270) yeah.

[\[00:22:08\]](#transcript-00-22-08-271) This is this one's probably the couldn't be the hardest to stomach at times, and I think maybe I mean, covenant theology is probably the most debated for sure, but I don't think people understand.

[\[00:22:20\]](#transcript-00-22-20-272) Well, I'm just saying, if you go online and look at what people debate, it's dispensationalism versus covenant theology seems to be a pretty hot one.

[\[00:22:27\]](#transcript-00-22-27-273) But everyone believes in confessions because I don't know of a church website that's worth its weight in gold that doesn't have a doctrinal standard on it.

[\[00:22:37\]](#transcript-00-22-37-274) Of some kind, I don't, I don't know.

[\[00:22:38\]](#transcript-00-22-38-275) Yeah, you shouldn't go to it if it doesn't.

[\[00:22:41\]](#transcript-00-22-41-276) That means the doctrinal standard is whatever the pastor or elders decide it to be, and it can change and shift at any moment.

[\[00:22:47\]](#transcript-00-22-47-277) And there's no way to examine it.

[\[00:22:49\]](#transcript-00-22-49-278) Like, Justin, if I were to walk up to you and you and I are going to have a meaningful relationship, and you say, well, what do you believe about Jesus?

[\[00:22:56\]](#transcript-00-22-56-279) Because we're supposed to test the spirits to make sure they're of the Lord.

[\[00:23:00\]](#transcript-00-23-00-280) And I'm just not supposed to just accept everything you say because you say you're a Christian.

[\[00:23:04\]](#transcript-00-23-04-281) You say, well, John, what about Jesus do you believe?

[\[00:23:07\]](#transcript-00-23-07-282) And I just say, well, I believe the Bible.

[\[00:23:09\]](#transcript-00-23-09-283) Well, there's you say, but you're not offering me anything to examine.

[\[00:23:13\]](#transcript-00-23-13-284) Like, I can't actually validate what you're saying.

[\[00:23:15\]](#transcript-00-23-15-285) Right.

[\[00:23:16\]](#transcript-00-23-16-286) And doctrinal statements, often on websites, I grew up this way.

[\[00:23:19\]](#transcript-00-23-19-287) I think you may have grown up in churches like this where, excuse me, you know, it's like instructional manuals at a hotel to get ice.

[\[00:23:27\]](#transcript-00-23-27-288) You know, put the cup here, hit the button, and ice comes out.

[\[00:23:30\]](#transcript-00-23-30-289) That's it.

[\[00:23:30\]](#transcript-00-23-30-290) You know, that's about all that's there.

[\[00:23:32\]](#transcript-00-23-32-291) You know, we believe the Bible, we believe Jesus rose from the grave, and don't sin.

[\[00:23:35\]](#transcript-00-23-35-292) It's like that's not enough to really tell you robustly what this church stands for.

[\[00:23:41\]](#transcript-00-23-41-293) So, theologically, what I love about confessions, and specifically the one that we hold to, the 1689, but I would even, I mean, a lot of the Reformed confessions, I would not have a hard time.

[\[00:23:52\]](#transcript-00-23-52-294) Westminster, Belgic Confession, etc., etc.

[\[00:23:54\]](#transcript-00-23-54-295) Exactly.

[\[00:23:56\]](#transcript-00-23-56-296) In that they are examined documents that have stood the test of time for hundreds of years now.

[\[00:24:03\]](#transcript-00-24-03-297) That's not to say you are ungodly, unbiblical, or in danger if you're using a more modern confession.

[\[00:24:11\]](#transcript-00-24-11-298) Okay.

[\[00:24:12\]](#transcript-00-24-12-299) I'm not going to say that at all.

[\[00:24:13\]](#transcript-00-24-13-300) That's cultish.

[\[00:24:15\]](#transcript-00-24-15-301) But you and I find a lot of confidence in using the 1689 London Baptist Confession just because it has stood the test of time for so many years.

[\[00:24:23\]](#transcript-00-24-23-302) And it's been a confession that has, I would say, accurately represents the entirety of scripture in places that matter.

[\[00:24:32\]](#transcript-00-24-32-303) And then, when I say like in places that matter, there are certain parts of scripture, Justin, that you and I would agree that can be confusing, but they are not, um, they're not changing the nature of God, the

[\[00:24:41\]](#transcript-00-24-41-304) nature of man, or the nature of salvation, or the nature of in time, meaning that for all of eternity where we will be.

[\[00:24:48\]](#transcript-00-24-48-305) So, from a confessional standpoint, this is why, Justin, you know, I've seen churches who have almost made fun of confessions?

[\[00:24:58\]](#transcript-00-24-58-306) Sure.

[\[00:24:58\]](#transcript-00-24-58-307) They say sola scriptura, but yet then their pastor or the elders get up and write up their confession on the website.

[\[00:25:05\]](#transcript-00-25-05-308) I mean, I'll give you an example of this.

[\[00:25:06\]](#transcript-00-25-06-309) John MacArthur and John Piper are the ones who wrote the doctrinal statements.

[\[00:25:09\]](#transcript-00-25-09-310) This is not like hidden knowledge.

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-311) This is public, but they've written it.

[\[00:25:14\]](#transcript-00-25-14-312) And so they're saying the church is going to be held to my specific understanding of it.

[\[00:25:19\]](#transcript-00-25-19-313) And effectively, what happens there is the man becomes the confession.

[\[00:25:23\]](#transcript-00-25-23-314) His doctrine becomes the confession of the church.

[\[00:25:25\]](#transcript-00-25-25-315) That's right.

[\[00:25:26\]](#transcript-00-25-26-316) And at times, those things have been examined and had to be altered because let's just say they weren't orthodoxy.

[\[00:25:33\]](#transcript-00-25-33-317) Yeah.

[\[00:25:34\]](#transcript-00-25-34-318) A couple other comments here before we move on.

[\[00:25:37\]](#transcript-00-25-37-319) You've picked up on some wonderful things.

[\[00:25:39\]](#transcript-00-25-39-320) Functionally, everybody appeals to some kind of confession, even people that say no creed but the Bible, no confession but Christ.

[\[00:25:48\]](#transcript-00-25-48-321) They typically do that while they are showing you their notes in their study Bible or something like that.

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-322) Right, exactly.

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-323) Where do you think those notes came from?

[\[00:25:57\]](#transcript-00-25-57-324) You're appealing to something that is outside of scripture.

[\[00:26:01\]](#transcript-00-26-01-325) That's right.

[\[00:26:01\]](#transcript-00-26-01-326) And this is another podcast for another day, but sola scriptura does not mean solo scriptura, where we only appeal to scripture, but scripture is the highest authority, but then we appeal in a good sense, to the tradition and

[\[00:26:14\]](#transcript-00-26-14-327) the history of Orthodox belief that has existed in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ for 2,000 years.

[\[00:26:19\]](#transcript-00-26-19-328) And so we appeal to that.

[\[00:26:20\]](#transcript-00-26-20-329) And in doing so, instead of doing theology individually, where what really matters is what I think about a text or what I feel about a text.

[\[00:26:30\]](#transcript-00-26-30-330) We are asking the question: no, with all due respect, I don't so much care what you think.

[\[00:26:35\]](#transcript-00-26-35-331) What we care about is what the saints have collectively understood through history about the scriptures and about what they teach.

[\[00:26:43\]](#transcript-00-26-43-332) And so confessionalism unapologetically appeals to that one witness, that historical orthodox witness of the saints through history.

[\[00:26:52\]](#transcript-00-26-52-333) And there is some safety and some security in that, John, that protects us from a multitude of errors, man.

[\[00:26:58\]](#transcript-00-26-58-334) That's right.

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-335) You know, and so even in being good Bereans, like Acts 17, understand that that is a corporate exercise.

[\[00:27:05\]](#transcript-00-27-05-336) That is not some individualistic thing where I go to my Bible alone with no presuppositions and am able to discern truth from error.

[\[00:27:13\]](#transcript-00-27-13-337) Right.

[\[00:27:14\]](#transcript-00-27-14-338) And they were, you know, I have to understand, too, they were dealing with the Messiah has come, and he's like, Look, you don't need to trust me, you can compare what I'm saying to the prophecies being fulfilled.

[\[00:27:23\]](#transcript-00-27-23-339) I love this quote.

[\[00:27:24\]](#transcript-00-27-24-340) I'm gonna not quote it verbatim because I can't remember where it's at, but Spurgeon has this question about confessionals, and he held to the 1689.

[\[00:27:32\]](#transcript-00-27-32-341) And he says, because the debate is this: I have the Holy Spirit, and I have my Bible, which is inspired, therefore I should get it right.

[\[00:27:40\]](#transcript-00-27-40-342) And he says that I find it ironic that you believing you have the Holy Spirit and that you're going to get it right.

[\[00:27:49\]](#transcript-00-27-49-343) That the believers before you didn't have the Holy Spirit, therefore, they couldn't have got it right.

[\[00:27:55\]](#transcript-00-27-55-344) That's right.

[\[00:27:55\]](#transcript-00-27-55-345) Yeah, realizing you're not the first to study the Bible.

[\[00:27:59\]](#transcript-00-27-59-346) You're also not the first to get it wrong.

[\[00:28:01\]](#transcript-00-28-01-347) Exactly.

[\[00:28:01\]](#transcript-00-28-01-348) And therefore, maybe we should allow the wisdom of those before us to help guide us in making sure we don't fall into the same traps.

[\[00:28:10\]](#transcript-00-28-10-349) Yeah, exactly.

[\[00:28:10\]](#transcript-00-28-10-350) And maybe because you're fallen, you might not get everything right.

[\[00:28:13\]](#transcript-00-28-13-351) And it would be useful to appeal to other people who have also had the Spirit of God.

[\[00:28:16\]](#transcript-00-28-16-352) Amen.

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-353) That's right.

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-354) All right.

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-355) So that's the third point: confessionalism.

[\[00:28:19\]](#transcript-00-28-19-356) Let's move on to number four, John.

[\[00:28:20\]](#transcript-00-28-20-357) Give it to you.

[\[00:28:21\]](#transcript-00-28-21-358) Yeah.

[\[00:28:21\]](#transcript-00-28-21-359) So the next two would be ones that, well, this one for sure is a part of reformed theology because it is driven out of the first three, in our opinion.

[\[00:28:32\]](#transcript-00-28-32-360) Once you have these perspectives of the Bible from a covenantal perspective and then a Calvinistic perspective as means of the sovereignty of God.

[\[00:28:41\]](#transcript-00-28-41-361) And then we look through history of how the church has interpreted the Bible and interpreted the relationship between the sinner becoming a saint and then connected to the body of Christ, how are they then sustained?

[\[00:28:55\]](#transcript-00-28-55-362) And so there's an old phrase, and we love it, we still use it to this day.

[\[00:28:59\]](#transcript-00-28-59-363) It's how does God interact with his family?

[\[00:29:04\]](#transcript-00-29-04-364) How does he sustain them?

[\[00:29:05\]](#transcript-00-29-05-365) How does he grow them?

[\[00:29:07\]](#transcript-00-29-07-366) How does he protect them?

[\[00:29:08\]](#transcript-00-29-08-367) And we would say that the phrase is the ordinary means of grace.

[\[00:29:13\]](#transcript-00-29-13-368) If you were to

[\[00:29:15\]](#transcript-00-29-15-369) counteract the opposite of that, it would be extraordinary, you know, efforts or supernatural means, right?

[\[00:29:22\]](#transcript-00-29-22-370) You could either be effort or it could be supernatural.

[\[00:29:25\]](#transcript-00-29-25-371) God has at times meaning God acting directly in a miraculous sense in a miraculous sense like Moses in the burning bush would be a great example or speaking in tongues things like this so you have ordinary.

[\[00:29:38\]](#transcript-00-29-38-372) and the reason why we use the phrase I know for a long time, I didn't quite understand this phrase when I was younger.

[\[00:29:44\]](#transcript-00-29-44-373) Trying, I don't know what you meant by this.

[\[00:29:45\]](#transcript-00-29-45-374) When it says means of grace, that we believe that the Bible teaches that how we have begun in the faith, which is by grace through faith in Christ alone, is how then we continue in this, which is by

[\[00:29:57\]](#transcript-00-29-57-375) grace through faith alone, right?

[\[00:30:00\]](#transcript-00-30-00-376) So, how is it then that we heard the gospel, and that's how our hearts were brought to life.

[\[00:30:07\]](#transcript-00-30-07-377) Then we are told that the same means which hearing the word of God proclaimed to us is how God continues to sustain us.

[\[00:30:15\]](#transcript-00-30-15-378) And so there's three means, there's kind of been debates here and there in general, and we're not going to really get into that.

[\[00:30:21\]](#transcript-00-30-21-379) But by and large, the Reformed have all agreed that the means of grace is the public church gathered around His Word through the preaching and the teaching and the fellowship of the word, where they are speaking the truth

[\[00:30:34\]](#transcript-00-30-34-380) to one another.

[\[00:30:35\]](#transcript-00-30-35-381) Like it says, consider how to build one another up daily, right?

[\[00:30:38\]](#transcript-00-30-38-382) So, but primarily the preaching and teaching of the word is God's means to develop, strengthen, and care for his congregation.

[\[00:30:48\]](#transcript-00-30-48-383) The next would be the sacraments.

[\[00:30:50\]](#transcript-00-30-50-384) You know, some if you're new, that's a new word for you.

[\[00:30:53\]](#transcript-00-30-53-385) It might sound Roman Catholic, it just means sacred.

[\[00:30:57\]](#transcript-00-30-57-386) Really, it's a sacred command from our Lord that, and he only gave us two.

[\[00:31:01\]](#transcript-00-31-01-387) Ordinance is another word, ordinance is sometimes used.

[\[00:31:04\]](#transcript-00-31-04-388) But I like sacrament because I do too.

[\[00:31:06\]](#transcript-00-31-06-389) We use a levity to it, like it kind of really raises it to a level.

[\[00:31:10\]](#transcript-00-31-10-390) This is sacred.

[\[00:31:11\]](#transcript-00-31-11-391) This is from the Lord.

[\[00:31:12\]](#transcript-00-31-12-392) That's right.

[\[00:31:13\]](#transcript-00-31-13-393) And those are the Lord's table.

[\[00:31:16\]](#transcript-00-31-16-394) And so the body and blood of Christ presented to us.

[\[00:31:21\]](#transcript-00-31-21-395) We'll talk about that here in a minute.

[\[00:31:22\]](#transcript-00-31-22-396) And then baptism.

[\[00:31:23\]](#transcript-00-31-23-397) And we believe that those must be or those must be practiced by the church, a legitimate church underneath the authority of the church.

[\[00:31:33\]](#transcript-00-31-33-398) And when they do, when we hold the body and blood and the gospel is presented to us, God uses those means to increase our faith, to comfort our hearts, and to strengthen us.

[\[00:31:41\]](#transcript-00-31-41-399) And the same thing to nourish us.

[\[00:31:42\]](#transcript-00-31-42-400) That's right.

[\[00:31:43\]](#transcript-00-31-43-401) And our baptism, I love this.

[\[00:31:45\]](#transcript-00-31-45-402) I'm going to be preaching on this in a couple of weeks.

[\[00:31:46\]](#transcript-00-31-46-403) We need to do an episode on this soon.

[\[00:31:48\]](#transcript-00-31-48-404) But it is of no mistake that Christ sends his disciples out and says, baptize these new disciples in the name of, and anytime it's in the name of, it's under the acceptance and with the authority of, in the

[\[00:32:00\]](#transcript-00-32-00-405) name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[\[00:32:02\]](#transcript-00-32-02-406) So when we say, remember your baptism, we're saying, remember, you have been accepted by the triune God to be a part of who He is.

[\[00:32:09\]](#transcript-00-32-09-407) Remember, that is a work of them, not of you.

[\[00:32:12\]](#transcript-00-32-12-408) Yeah.

[\[00:32:13\]](#transcript-00-32-13-409) And that ultimately, your baptism is about your union with Christ.

[\[00:32:16\]](#transcript-00-32-16-410) That's right.

[\[00:32:16\]](#transcript-00-32-16-411) And you've been grafted into Him and your sins have been washed away.

[\[00:32:20\]](#transcript-00-32-20-412) And then we would say prayer is also a means corporately and individually, that prayer is a means of God's grace.

[\[00:32:26\]](#transcript-00-32-26-413) I mean, when you think about it, you have three absolute guarantees for the rest of your life that God will always answer without fail, without obligation.

[\[00:32:33\]](#transcript-00-32-33-414) He says, If in a time of need, boldly run into my throne room and I will give you mercy and grace.

[\[00:32:39\]](#transcript-00-32-39-415) Excuse me.

[\[00:32:39\]](#transcript-00-32-39-416) And then James 1 says, If you lack wisdom, ask of the Lord, and He will give it to you liberally.

[\[00:32:44\]](#transcript-00-32-44-417) So we can go to Him to receive these means.

[\[00:32:46\]](#transcript-00-32-46-418) But we're often commanded to pray for each other.

[\[00:32:49\]](#transcript-00-32-49-419) Why?

[\[00:32:49\]](#transcript-00-32-49-420) Because God moves in our hearts and in the hearts of people as we pray for them.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-421) So I'll wrap it up into this, Justin, that the reformed have believed that the faith that we practice day in and day out is a corporate reality, and that God cares for us as a unified body of believers.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-422) Just go read Ephesians 4.

[\[00:33:10\]](#transcript-00-33-10-423) When the body functions properly through teaching and preaching and praying and administering, all of these means, God builds us up into love.

[\[00:33:18\]](#transcript-00-33-18-424) So, this is so contrary to modern Christianity, which is individualism and spiritual disciplines practiced by ourselves, where church becomes a gym, where we come in and do our part, but we don't see the connection to the body.

[\[00:33:34\]](#transcript-00-33-34-425) And so, reform theology really draws us into God's mission and his method and his means.

[\[00:33:40\]](#transcript-00-33-40-426) And that's what we'd say: the ordinary means of grace is God's mission and method for the sustainability of the believer.

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-427) And in particular, the means of grace are partaken of in corporate worship.

[\[00:33:53\]](#transcript-00-33-53-428) That's right.

[\[00:33:54\]](#transcript-00-33-54-429) And so when we come to worship the Lord, we come to receive from the ministry of Christ.

[\[00:33:59\]](#transcript-00-33-59-430) And God is very much glorified and honored in that worship because we are casting ourselves wholly upon His Son, who is our salvation, right?

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-431) But so, yeah, we come to corporate worship, not to bring something to God on the basis of which he would show us his favor, but we come to receive from the ministry of Christ so that we might be

[\[00:34:16\]](#transcript-00-34-16-432) nourished and strengthened, sustained, and built up.

[\[00:34:19\]](#transcript-00-34-19-433) And so, as you said, I just want to hammer this: the corporate realities of the gathered church drive our private Christian lives.

[\[00:34:28\]](#transcript-00-34-28-434) And that is the complete opposite of how many modern Christians think intuitively, and in some senses, how they've been taught to think in the church.

[\[00:34:37\]](#transcript-00-34-37-435) Because we think that my personal devotional life will make me useful in the corporate setting, when in reality, it's the opposite: the corporate drives the private.

[\[00:34:45\]](#transcript-00-34-45-436) And corporate worship is a lifeline.

[\[00:34:48\]](#transcript-00-34-48-437) And that's because we come and receive from the means of grace in corporate worship as the gathered church as we sit under the word, as we receive and participate in the sacraments, as we pray, and then also as

[\[00:35:00\]](#transcript-00-35-00-438) we teach and exhort and admonish even one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.

[\[00:35:04\]](#transcript-00-35-04-439) That's right.

[\[00:35:05\]](#transcript-00-35-05-440) And so, this, I would, again, just in the interest of clarity, and then, John, yeah, absolutely, one more comment.

[\[00:35:09\]](#transcript-00-35-09-441) This is not the means of grace proper is not the same thing as our personal spiritual disciplines.

[\[00:35:16\]](#transcript-00-35-16-442) To read the Bible and to pray and to do these kinds of things on our own are good things to do, and yet they are not the means of grace.

[\[00:35:24\]](#transcript-00-35-24-443) And God has not attached His promises to those individual pursuits, the ways that he has attached his promises to the gathered church reality.

[\[00:35:33\]](#transcript-00-35-33-444) And so we believe that faith is imparted ordinarily through the preaching of the word, and faith is nourished, sustained, and strengthened through the various means that God has given.

[\[00:35:42\]](#transcript-00-35-42-445) Yeah, I think that phrase, God has not attached his promises, that's a scary thing to say, but it's the truth.

[\[00:35:48\]](#transcript-00-35-48-446) Like, if you go in and say, I promise this, you know, because Ephesians 4 is so plain.

[\[00:35:55\]](#transcript-00-35-55-447) When this happens, my guaranteed of this.

[\[00:35:58\]](#transcript-00-35-58-448) Justin Eldis, you know, sometimes people are like, you guys are really de-emphasizing Bible reading.

[\[00:36:02\]](#transcript-00-36-02-449) Look, you need to hear us out from a historical standpoint, people have not had access to own personal Bibles, nor the time to study them, nor the education to study them until recently.

[\[00:36:15\]](#transcript-00-36-15-450) So, God, in his providence, literally tells the early church, free up these men, get deacons around them so that what they can dedicate themselves to the study of the word, which would take them to the synagogues and where

[\[00:36:28\]](#transcript-00-36-28-451) these manuscripts would be, so they could come back to the gathered church, and you have men.

[\[00:36:33\]](#transcript-00-36-33-452) And listen, the requirements for the elders, Justin, is massively important here because they have to be able to defend, understand, and communicate God's word accurately.

[\[00:36:42\]](#transcript-00-36-42-453) Why?

[\[00:36:42\]](#transcript-00-36-42-454) It's sound doctrine.

[\[00:36:43\]](#transcript-00-36-43-455) Because it's how the church was cared for.

[\[00:36:46\]](#transcript-00-36-46-456) Exactly.

[\[00:36:46\]](#transcript-00-36-46-457) If I may, in the interest of time, we'll move on.

[\[00:36:50\]](#transcript-00-36-50-458) I agree.

[\[00:36:51\]](#transcript-00-36-51-459) We are not trying to belittle or diminish personal Bible reading.

[\[00:36:55\]](#transcript-00-36-55-460) Praise God, we have copies of the scriptures.

[\[00:36:58\]](#transcript-00-36-58-461) I mean, avail yourselves of them by all means.

[\[00:37:00\]](#transcript-00-37-00-462) What we are saying, though, is that throughout the history of the church, the Lord, whenever you read about things in the New Testament regarding the word of God and its effectiveness.

[\[00:37:11\]](#transcript-00-37-11-463) We should understand that to be speaking to corporate realities of the word preached and read in the church.

[\[00:37:17\]](#transcript-00-37-17-464) And for people to have meditated on the law of God through history would have meant, to your point, they would have gathered with the saints, they would have heard the word taught preached so that they could rightly understand

[\[00:37:29\]](#transcript-00-37-29-465) it, and then they would have lived life.

[\[00:37:31\]](#transcript-00-37-31-466) Here's another ordinary means of grace term in the fellowship of the saints, and they would have talked about it.

[\[00:37:37\]](#transcript-00-37-37-467) They would have been sharpening one another and teaching one another based upon what they were corporately learning together.

[\[00:37:44\]](#transcript-00-37-44-468) So that's how the word of God reverberated around congregations for over a millennium.

[\[00:37:50\]](#transcript-00-37-50-469) That's right.

[\[00:37:50\]](#transcript-00-37-50-470) Was through this kind of thing where we gather and we're taught, we receive, and then we live life together and we talk about it and we continue to teach each other.

[\[00:37:58\]](#transcript-00-37-58-471) Man, if we live like that in our churches today, how great would that be?

[\[00:38:01\]](#transcript-00-38-01-472) Right?

[\[00:38:01\]](#transcript-00-38-01-473) Amen.

[\[00:38:02\]](#transcript-00-38-02-474) All right, so number five, I guess I'm leading off on this one.

[\[00:38:06\]](#transcript-00-38-06-475) So, the last of the five that we're going to bring up today is the distinction between the law and the gospel.

[\[00:38:12\]](#transcript-00-38-12-476) Yeah.

[\[00:38:13\]](#transcript-00-38-13-477) Many people think that the law and gospel distinction is a Lutheran category only, and that is false.

[\[00:38:20\]](#transcript-00-38-20-478) The distinction between the law and the gospel is also a reformed doctrine and a reformed category.

[\[00:38:25\]](#transcript-00-38-25-479) You can read any number of people, William Perkins, John Calvin, I could name many others, right, who articulated these things, Theodore Beza, etc., etc., etc., that articulated what we are about to say.

[\[00:38:35\]](#transcript-00-38-35-480) The distinction between the law and the gospel, spoken relatively simply, is this: that in the old and New Testaments, you have law and gospel in both.

[\[00:38:45\]](#transcript-00-38-45-481) So there's law and gospel in the Old Testament, there's law and gospel in the New.

[\[00:38:49\]](#transcript-00-38-49-482) Whenever we read of what God requires of mankind for righteousness.

[\[00:38:55\]](#transcript-00-38-55-483) That is law.

[\[00:38:57\]](#transcript-00-38-57-484) Do this.

[\[00:38:58\]](#transcript-00-38-58-485) That's right.

[\[00:38:58\]](#transcript-00-38-58-486) Any kind of imperative, you need to do this for righteousness, that's law.

[\[00:39:02\]](#transcript-00-39-02-487) Anytime we read of what Christ has done that is then given to us that we receive by faith.

[\[00:39:08\]](#transcript-00-39-08-488) That's gospel.

[\[00:39:10\]](#transcript-00-39-10-489) So, simple ways to remember this in your mind: do is law, done is gospel.

[\[00:39:18\]](#transcript-00-39-18-490) Do this and live, Leviticus 18:5, Jesus in Luke 10, a number of other places.

[\[00:39:23\]](#transcript-00-39-23-491) Paul picks this up in Galatians 3.

[\[00:39:25\]](#transcript-00-39-25-492) We could go on there.

[\[00:39:26\]](#transcript-00-39-26-493) Do this and live, that's law.

[\[00:39:28\]](#transcript-00-39-28-494) Christ has done it.

[\[00:39:30\]](#transcript-00-39-30-495) Now live in him.

[\[00:39:31\]](#transcript-00-39-31-496) That's gospel.

[\[00:39:33\]](#transcript-00-39-33-497) Remember this too: that everything God requires in his law, he gives in his gospel.

[\[00:39:39\]](#transcript-00-39-39-498) That's right.

[\[00:39:40\]](#transcript-00-39-40-499) Last one, and then I'll throw it over to you.

[\[00:39:42\]](#transcript-00-39-42-500) Yeah, the law demands everything and gives nothing.

[\[00:39:46\]](#transcript-00-39-46-501) The gospel demands nothing and gives everything.

[\[00:39:50\]](#transcript-00-39-50-502) That's right.

[\[00:39:51\]](#transcript-00-39-51-503) The law's standard is one of perfect perpetual personal obedience at a spiritual level.

[\[00:39:57\]](#transcript-00-39-57-504) Nothing else will meet its righteous requirements.

[\[00:40:00\]](#transcript-00-40-00-505) And so it is all or nothing.

[\[00:40:03\]](#transcript-00-40-03-506) Whereas in the gospel, the covenant of grace, right?

[\[00:40:06\]](#transcript-00-40-06-507) So when we say law, we mean covenant of works, do this, and live.

[\[00:40:09\]](#transcript-00-40-09-508) When we say gospel, we mean covenant of grace, receive.

[\[00:40:12\]](#transcript-00-40-12-509) When it comes to the gospel piece, we don't do anything, we simply receive with an open hand what Jesus has done and are thereby saved.

[\[00:40:21\]](#transcript-00-40-21-510) That's right.

[\[00:40:22\]](#transcript-00-40-22-511) Now, some of what Justin is saying may seem elementary, and it's elementary, my dear Watson, and basic.

[\[00:40:29\]](#transcript-00-40-29-512) My goodness, how these categories get collapsed, John, which I know.

[\[00:40:31\]](#transcript-00-40-31-513) I will tell you the previous four that we have mentioned will be obliterated if this category is not safely protected.

[\[00:40:42\]](#transcript-00-40-42-514) And I will, we can't get into it today.

[\[00:40:44\]](#transcript-00-40-44-515) This is more of an introduction.

[\[00:40:46\]](#transcript-00-40-46-516) We have done so many episodes, but below, Justin and I did an introduction to covenant theology.

[\[00:40:50\]](#transcript-00-40-50-517) Sorry, introduction to law, gospel distinction, and then the three uses of the law recently, as I think as early as last year.

[\[00:40:57\]](#transcript-00-40-57-518) Yeah, a year and a half ago or so, last year and a half.

[\[00:40:59\]](#transcript-00-40-59-519) Yeah.

[\[00:41:00\]](#transcript-00-41-00-520) You want to go and listen to that.

[\[00:41:02\]](#transcript-00-41-02-521) But I will say this: the foundation of all the previous four really is held by a law and gospel distinction.

[\[00:41:10\]](#transcript-00-41-10-522) Because if you don't get the law and the gospel correct, then you're going to misinterpret a lot of scripture.

[\[00:41:16\]](#transcript-00-41-16-523) And it happens, Justin.

[\[00:41:17\]](#transcript-00-41-17-524) We try and point this out quite often in our podcast.

[\[00:41:21\]](#transcript-00-41-21-525) That, for instance, when someone comes up to Jesus and says, What must I do to enter the kingdom, Jesus tells them what they must do.

[\[00:41:32\]](#transcript-00-41-32-526) He does not give them the good news of what he's about to do.

[\[00:41:35\]](#transcript-00-41-35-527) He's like, if you want to know what you need to do, that's fine.

[\[00:41:38\]](#transcript-00-41-38-528) If you come and ask me what I'll do for you.

[\[00:41:41\]](#transcript-00-41-41-529) That's a whole nother answer.

[\[00:41:42\]](#transcript-00-41-42-530) Now, all of the prostitutes and all the tax collectors came and asked Jesus out.

[\[00:41:46\]](#transcript-00-41-46-531) What are you going to do for me, Jesus?

[\[00:41:47\]](#transcript-00-41-47-532) He's like, I'll save you.

[\[00:41:48\]](#transcript-00-41-48-533) Well, came knowing that they didn't have righteousness.

[\[00:41:50\]](#transcript-00-41-50-534) That's right.

[\[00:41:51\]](#transcript-00-41-51-535) They couldn't achieve it's right, But the righteous came judging him, saying, Who are you to say what we can and cannot do in the kingdom?

[\[00:41:57\]](#transcript-00-41-57-536) Because he's like, Because I am the king, is why?

[\[00:41:59\]](#transcript-00-41-59-537) Yeah, so the law and the gospel, Jesus was the greatest preacher of the law, and it's really hard.

[\[00:42:03\]](#transcript-00-42-03-538) Like, for Jesus, for instance, I'm not going to answer for this to you now, but we answered in the Law Gospel podcast.

[\[00:42:09\]](#transcript-00-42-09-539) When Jesus says, Pick up your cross and follow me, that's not the gospel.

[\[00:42:13\]](#transcript-00-42-13-540) And we'll explain to you why.

[\[00:42:14\]](#transcript-00-42-14-541) But these, these definitions are important.

[\[00:42:17\]](#transcript-00-42-17-542) And it really does, it's a debate going back hundreds and hundreds of years.

[\[00:42:22\]](#transcript-00-42-22-543) And really, it goes back to Rome.

[\[00:42:25\]](#transcript-00-42-25-544) This is where Rome collapsed the law and the gospel.

[\[00:42:28\]](#transcript-00-42-28-545) And this is what Martin Luther and the reformers saw and have been fighting to rip it apart and put it on either side.

[\[00:42:34\]](#transcript-00-42-34-546) Both are holy, both are necessary, both honor and glorify God, but one condemns you and one saves you.

[\[00:42:40\]](#transcript-00-42-40-547) And that's the important under that's important to understand the distinction between the two.

[\[00:42:43\]](#transcript-00-42-43-548) That's exactly right.

[\[00:42:44\]](#transcript-00-42-44-549) Yeah, it's sometimes jarring for people when you say that Jesus was the greatest preacher of the law ever, and that in actuality, if you read the gospel accounts, which are effectively, just the accounts of Jesus' life and ministry.

[\[00:42:59\]](#transcript-00-42-59-550) He speaks more words of law than he does gospel.

[\[00:43:02\]](#transcript-00-43-02-551) That's right.

[\[00:43:04\]](#transcript-00-43-04-552) And now he has intentions in preaching and teaching the law the way that he did.

[\[00:43:09\]](#transcript-00-43-09-553) The first of which is to crush sinners in their self-righteousness and force them to trust Him alone.

[\[00:43:17\]](#transcript-00-43-17-554) Like you come to the end of yourself because there's no way that I can meet this standard.

[\[00:43:21\]](#transcript-00-43-21-555) Exactly right.

[\[00:43:22\]](#transcript-00-43-22-556) Only one has ever met it, and you trust him to save you completely.

[\[00:43:27\]](#transcript-00-43-27-557) And he is your whole and only righteousness received by faith, not by works that you would do.

[\[00:43:33\]](#transcript-00-43-33-558) Critical importance.

[\[00:43:35\]](#transcript-00-43-35-559) If I can, like Trojan horse, like a 5.5, I think it's acknowledged in our confession.

[\[00:43:40\]](#transcript-00-43-40-560) It's kind of wrapped up in things that we've said.

[\[00:43:42\]](#transcript-00-43-42-561) We also vehemently and doggedly affirm the saint-center reality.

[\[00:43:47\]](#transcript-00-43-47-562) And the reason I bring this up is because, and this may end up becoming a sixth thing that John and I talk about over the course of years.

[\[00:43:52\]](#transcript-00-43-52-563) Like, if we redo this podcast in four or five years from now, we might have a number six because this, I don't like to use alarmist language, but this is under some kind of assault amongst like serious-minded people,

[\[00:44:06\]](#transcript-00-44-06-564) particularly around the text of Romans 7, people are saying that it's becoming very popular and in vogue right now, even in seminaries, to see Romans 7 as written by Paul in an unregenerate, like hypothetically unregenerate state.

[\[00:44:21\]](#transcript-00-44-21-565) And we would just say, no, historically, in the Reformed tradition, the Lutheran tradition as well, we have understood that Romans 7 is written by Paul as a Christian.

[\[00:44:29\]](#transcript-00-44-29-566) It's normative to the Christian experience.

[\[00:44:31\]](#transcript-00-44-31-567) And we absolutely doggedly defend the saint-center reality.

[\[00:44:34\]](#transcript-00-44-34-568) You are at the same time justified and a sinner.

[\[00:44:37\]](#transcript-00-44-37-569) We could talk more about that in future episodes, but I felt like it would be remiss to not throw that in there pointedly, John.

[\[00:44:43\]](#transcript-00-44-43-570) Yeah.

[\[00:44:43\]](#transcript-00-44-43-571) And I would say if you go to our website, Grace of Forum, the network, Jaran, GraciformNetwork.org, you will see that this is what the network is built on: are these pillars?

[\[00:44:53\]](#transcript-00-44-53-572) Yep.

[\[00:44:53\]](#transcript-00-44-53-573) And so, any church that is a part of this network will also be a part of all of this theology.

[\[00:44:59\]](#transcript-00-44-59-574) So, pray that it continues to grow and that God will encourage the pastors who are part of it.

[\[00:45:04\]](#transcript-00-45-04-575) Yeah, amen.

[\[00:45:04\]](#transcript-00-45-04-576) Well, this has been good, man.

[\[00:45:05\]](#transcript-00-45-05-577) We've jam-packed about as much as we can into 40 whatever minutes.

[\[00:45:09\]](#transcript-00-45-09-578) We trust this to the Lord, and we hope this is useful to the saints.

[\[00:45:13\]](#transcript-00-45-13-579) Again, this is just us trying to recap some of the major things that we've talked about over the years, but to give this to you in an all-in-one.

[\[00:45:20\]](#transcript-00-45-20-580) Hey, when you guys answer the question, what does it mean to be reformed?

[\[00:45:23\]](#transcript-00-45-23-581) What do you mean?

[\[00:45:24\]](#transcript-00-45-24-582) How would you talk to people who come into your offices or who show up at your church and want to know what it means to be reformed?

[\[00:45:30\]](#transcript-00-45-30-583) This would be effectively how we would start to answer that question.

[\[00:45:33\]](#transcript-00-45-33-584) Of course, more can be said, and we trust if Christ tarries, we'll record more podcasts, John.

[\[00:45:37\]](#transcript-00-45-37-585) But until then, we're grateful that you've decided to listen.

[\[00:45:40\]](#transcript-00-45-40-586) We hope you've been encouraged and helped by the content.

[\[00:45:42\]](#transcript-00-45-42-587) Grace and peace to you.

[\[00:45:43\]](#transcript-00-45-43-588) Hey, everyone.

[\[00:45:44\]](#transcript-00-45-44-589) Before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you.

[\[00:45:46\]](#transcript-00-45-46-590) And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it.

[\[00:45:50\]](#transcript-00-45-50-591) But we also need your support, and it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

[\[00:45:56\]](#transcript-00-45-56-592) So the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.

---

### What Is Pietism?

*Published: September 13, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-is-pietism*
*Tags: Pietism*

Pietism is something we have discussed many times over the years on Theocast. Four years into recording together, Jon and Justin pointedly revisit the topic in today’s episode. What is pietism? How would the guys explain it to someone visiting their respective churches? How does pietism affect the individual Christian? How does it affect churches and even corporate worship? And what about the church’s tendency to hitch its wagon to politics and social causes--does that have anything to do with pietism?

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https://youtu.be/hfAi0CzsKDU

---

### How Do I Put on the Armor of God?

*Published: September 6, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-do-i-put-on-the-armor-of-god*
*Tags: Armor of God*

What is the armor of God? It is hard to put something on if you don’t first know what it is. Jon and Justin first help identify what Paul was using as the armor of God and then explain how the believers use the armor for their protection in their daily lives. The most important part of the armor is understanding what it protects, the acceptance of the believer before God.

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https://youtu.be/vnsXCgqg0Fc

---

### How's Evangelism Going?

*Published: August 30, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/hows-evangelism-going*
*Tags: Evangelism*

If you want to make Christians feel badly about themselves, one question to ask is, “How is evangelism going?” Many Christians think the way to do evangelism is through things like street preaching, handing out tracts, or sharing the gospel with someone on an airplane. Those things are fine and good--but they may not be the main way to do evangelism according to the New Testament. In today’s episode, Jon and Justin talk about loving our neighbor and doing evangelism, as well as what to say when we have opportunities to speak of Christ.

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https://youtu.be/AKA44NHR\_CI

---

### Feeling Cold and Discouraged?

*Published: August 23, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/feeling-cold-and-discouraged*
*Tags: Battling Discouragement, human weakness, Struggle with sin, Struggling*

Christians struggle. We are often weak. We often feel cold and apathetic--even toward the things of God. We battle discouragement. Many believers are afraid to admit these things are true, but most of us live here. Jon and Justin talk openly about all of this on today’s episode. Take heart, there is hope for the weak!

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about some exciting changes that are coming to Theocast!  
  
[Grace Reformed Network Charter Meeting Information](https://gracereformednetwork.org/charter-meeting-october-2023/)  
  
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https://youtu.be/uwRhVDeuSUU

---

### Does God Really Love Me?

*Published: August 16, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/does-god-really-love-me*
*Tags: God's Love*

Does God really love me? If we’re honest, this is a question we all ask ourselves. Because of our sin, our consciences, and the assaults of the enemy, we often doubt whether God really does love us. Is he not frustrated, fed up, and displeased with us? Does God really delight to give us good gifts? Does he really delight to save us? Jon and Justin seek to answer these questions from Scripture in today’s episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk openly with the members about what keeps them going and also update the members on some exciting changes coming to Theocast!  
  
Resources:  
  
[Grace Reformed Network Charter Meeting Information](https://gracereformednetwork.org/charter-meeting-october-2023/)  
  
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https://youtu.be/kHAjsL2Yxtg

---

### When We Don't See Satan's Accusations

*Published: August 9, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/when-we-dont-see-satans-accusations*
*Tags: Spiritual Warfare*

In today’s episode, Jon and Justin talk about the accusations of Satan that often go undetected. We are conditioned to think that the evil one’s accusations look a certain way, but he is subtle and deceitful. Just by virtue of the fact that we live in the world (which is influenced by Satan), there are ways we think that cause us to question our legitimacy at every turn.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk very personally about their own battles with shame and guilt that have nothing at all to do with what God has revealed in Scripture.  
  
Resources:  
  
[Grace Reformed Network Charter Meeting Information](https://gracereformednetwork.org/charter-meeting-october-2023/)  
  
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https://youtu.be/DzFvf\_EwJYA

---

### Does Too Much Grace Lead to Sin?

*Published: August 2, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/does-too-much-grace-lead-to-sin*
*Tags: grace, Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction, Sin*

Does too much grace lead to sin? Quite the opposite, actually. It is the preaching of Christ that leads to repentance. The right division of the law and the gospel--and the heralding of the mercy and grace of God--produces repentance in the saints. These things build a culture in a local church where it is safe to confess real sin. All of this fosters real sanctification. Jon and Justin talk about this on today’s episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about mercy, grace, confession, and forgiveness in the church amongst the saints. The guys also consider that the holier and more mature Christians become, the more gentle, patient, and merciful they become.  
  
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https://youtu.be/5o9fkSnh\_uc

---

### What is the Gospel?

*Published: July 26, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-is-the-gospel*
*Tags: Gospel, law gospel distinction, self righteousness*

What is the gospel? Sadly, the answer many church-going people would give has a lot to do with us. This has left some self-righteous and proud. This has left many anxious and fearful. The gospel, however, is the message about what Jesus alone has secured for sinners: the forgiveness of sins, imputed righteousness, and an eternal inheritance.

Note: Semper Reformanda is included as part of the regular episode  
  
Resources:  
  
[Our episode on Introduction to Law/Gospel Distinction](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/intro-to-law-and-gospel-distinction/)  
  
[Our episode on What Is (and Is Not) the Gospel](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel/)  
  
[Our episode on The Prove Yourself Gospel](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/the-prove-yourself-gospel/)  
  
[Our episode on Why the Gospel Terrifies Christians](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/why-the-gospel-terrifies-christians/)  
  
[Our episode on Following Jesus Is Not the Gospel](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/following-jesus-is-not-the-gospel/)  
  
[FREE EBOOK](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/product/faithvsfaithfulness/)  
  
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https://youtu.be/kwowiSAX-F0

---

### The Dark Side of Christianity

*Published: July 19, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-dark-side-of-christianity-1*
*Tags: Church*

Jon and Justin revisit the first episode they ever recorded together, “The Dark Side of Christianity.” If we are going to live honest and helpful lives in the church, we have to acknowledge that things often feel dark. Where does this darkness come from? It comes from the corruption of our flesh, and it comes from the work of the evil one. The guys talk about both in this episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin go a little bit deeper into the realities of the demonic realm and spiritual warfare.  
  
Resources:  
  
[“The Bruised Reed” by Richard Sibbes](https://a.co/d/4oFrQGa)  
  
[“The Whole Armor of God” by Iain Duguid](https://a.co/d/cGL5mgY)  
  
[Our episode on Romans 7](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/why-you-cant-stop-sinning/)  
  
[Our episode - Christian, There Will Be Sin](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/christian-there-will-be-sin-w-ken-jones/)  
  
https://youtu.be/8-rcVktP-b0

---

### Forgiveness for Homeschoolers and Hitlers

*Published: June 28, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/forgiveness-for-homeschoolers-and-hitlers*
*Tags: Forgiveness*

In the church, we are to preach the gospel indiscriminately to all mankind. God is in the business of saving very sinful people, and if we’re honest, this can be hard for us. Alongside this, once we are saved into the church, we lock arms with other believers in order to live lives of faithfulness and holiness. Here is the rub: the church can be grossly misunderstood in both facets of its life--in both the free offer of Christ to sinners and in the practice of piety and discipline. Jon and Justin discuss all of this in today’s episode.

Semper Reformanda: In light of our understanding of the gospel and the need for compassion toward fellow sinners, Jon and Justin consider several questions: Should Christians be pacifists? What about the rule of law? Are we just enabling abusive behavior? The guys also talk about encountering harm and hatred for Christ’s name.  
  
Resources:  
  
[“The Whole Christ: Legalism, Antinomianism, and Gospel Assurance—Why the Marrow Controversy Still Matters” by Sinclair Ferguson](https://www.amazon.com/Whole-Christ-Antinomianism-Assurance-Why-Controversy-ebook/dp/B01AIM65CQ/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1503625151&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Whole+Christ+%28Sinclair+Ferguson%29&linkCode=sl1&tag=theocast-20&linkId=4ac2c33b1a0f3996d7e79e8b738f7fa3)  
  
[Our episode: Why the Gospel Terrifies Christians](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/why-the-gospel-terrifies-christians/)  
  
[Our episode: Who Does the Gospel Offend](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/who-does-the-gospel-offend/)  
  
[Grace Reformed Network - Charter Meeting Information, October 2023](https://gracereformednetwork.org/charter-meeting-october-2023/)  
  
https://youtu.be/8WP1YDp8l4A

---

### NOT Sinning Is NOT the Purpose of Your Life

*Published: June 21, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/not-sinning-is-not-the-purpose-of-your-life*
*Tags: saint and sinner, Sin*

If you listen to many in the church today, you would think that the purpose of the Christian life is abstinence from sin. Is that really it? Jon and Justin talk about what we are called to in the Christian life. Because of what Jesus has done, because we have rest, because we have been filled, we now go and serve and love. What does it mean to live as an ambassador of the kingdom of Christ? Why is it that we should seek to be spent for the cause of Christ?

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about getting up every day and continuing on in the fight. How do we do that? Then, the guys talk about sanctification--ways it has often been presented and what it is really about. It is a fun conversation, including a reference to an old hymn, “Stand Up for Jesus”!  
  
https://youtu.be/v\_vdT0I\_bx8

---

### Why You Can't Stop Sinning (Romans 7 Reality)

*Published: June 14, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-you-cant-stop-sinning-romans-7-reality*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: Romans, saint and sinner, Sin*

In today’s episode, Jon and Justin consider why it is that we can’t stop sinning. There has been debate about Romans 7 throughout the history of the church--as to whether Paul is writing as a Christian or not. (Disclaimer: It is our position that he is writing as a Christian.) The guys spend some time in the text of Romans 7 and then go on to consider the experience of sinner-saints in this fallen world. Truer words have never been written about the Christian experience than Romans 7.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about their presumptions as preachers. What do they understand about themselves and about their people? How does this affect preaching? If we are sinner-saints, what do we need to hear when we gather on Sundays?  
  
Resources:  
  
[Justin’s Sermon: Truer Words Have Never Been Written (Romans 7:7-20)](https://covbap.org/sermons/truer-word-have-never-been-written-romans-77-20/)  
  
[Justin’s Sermon: The Cry of Every Believer (Romans 7:21-25)](https://covbap.org/sermons/the-cry-of-every-believer-romans-721-25/)  
  
https://youtu.be/pADTY-sPpww 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:04\]](#transcript-00-00-04-1) Hi, this is Justin.

[\[00:00:06\]](#transcript-00-00-06-2) Today on Theocast, we are going to be having a conversation about why you and why we can't stop sinning.

[\[00:00:13\]](#transcript-00-00-13-3) In other words, we're having a conversation about Romans chapter 7.

[\[00:00:17\]](#transcript-00-00-17-4) And we acknowledge that there's been some debate about this passage throughout the history of the church as to whether Paul is writing as a Christian, as a regenerate man, or writing about himself, or maybe a hypothetical person in

[\[00:00:27\]](#transcript-00-00-27-5) an unregenerate state.

[\[00:00:28\]](#transcript-00-00-28-6) If you've ever wondered about that, today's pod is for you.

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-7) So, we're going to do a little bit of that textual work.

[\[00:00:34\]](#transcript-00-00-34-8) We're going to go through the passage and try to explain it and expound on it a little bit, and then talk pastorly about the sinner-saint reality, about our battle against the flesh, about how with Paul we so often

[\[00:00:44\]](#transcript-00-00-44-9) find ourselves not doing what we want to do and doing the evil things that we don't want.

[\[00:00:50\]](#transcript-00-00-50-10) And this is our experience, this side of the resurrection.

[\[00:00:53\]](#transcript-00-00-53-11) So take heart, weary saint.

[\[00:00:55\]](#transcript-00-00-55-12) Christ has us, Christ will finally deliver us.

[\[00:00:57\]](#transcript-00-00-57-13) There will come a day when we will be freed from sinning.

[\[00:01:00\]](#transcript-00-01-00-14) We hope this podcast is helpful for you as you think about living between this day and that one.

[\[00:01:06\]](#transcript-00-01-06-15) Stay tuned.

[\[00:01:07\]](#transcript-00-01-07-16) We are excited to announce we have a brand new podcast available called the Kingsmen Podcast.

[\[00:01:13\]](#transcript-00-01-13-17) It's where we are reclaiming biblical mandate by training and equipping men for the work of the kingdom.

[\[00:01:18\]](#transcript-00-01-18-18) You can find it anywhere you download a podcast.

[\[00:01:20\]](#transcript-00-01-20-19) You can also watch it on YouTube.

[\[00:01:22\]](#transcript-00-01-22-20) We have new episodes that come out every Monday.

[\[00:01:36\]](#transcript-00-01-36-21) Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ, conversations about the Christian life from a confessional, reformed, and pastoral perspective.

[\[00:01:48\]](#transcript-00-01-48-22) If you're wondering what we're aiming to do here at Theocast, we are aiming to clarify the gospel and reclaim the purpose of the kingdom of Christ.

[\[00:01:57\]](#transcript-00-01-57-23) Your hosts, today are Jon Moffitt, who is pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, and I'm Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:02:07\]](#transcript-00-02-07-24) And we're meeting on another Wednesday.

[\[00:02:09\]](#transcript-00-02-09-25) This is our third consecutive double dip Wednesday.

[\[00:02:13\]](#transcript-00-02-13-26) It is grinding, Jon.

[\[00:02:16\]](#transcript-00-02-16-27) Trying to get ready for the summer.

[\[00:02:17\]](#transcript-00-02-17-28) We got travels, bro.

[\[00:02:18\]](#transcript-00-02-18-29) Trying to travel.

[\[00:02:19\]](#transcript-00-02-19-30) Trying to produce content.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-31) We got things going on.

[\[00:02:21\]](#transcript-00-02-21-32) You're coming to Asheville in late June.

[\[00:02:23\]](#transcript-00-02-23-33) whoop.

[\[00:02:24\]](#transcript-00-02-24-34) That's going to be cool.

[\[00:02:24\]](#transcript-00-02-24-35) Hey, you know what?

[\[00:02:25\]](#transcript-00-02-25-36) If you're going to go to Nine Marks, that's going to be in September in North Carolina.

[\[00:02:30\]](#transcript-00-02-30-37) Yes, in North Carolina, right?

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-38) Yeah.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-39) It's Southeastern.

[\[00:02:34\]](#transcript-00-02-34-40) Do you know what you're speaking on?

[\[00:02:35\]](#transcript-00-02-35-41) Can you say?

[\[00:02:36\]](#transcript-00-02-36-42) Do you know what you're saying?

[\[00:02:36\]](#transcript-00-02-36-43) Speaking on the conversation, so the conference is on expositional preaching.

[\[00:02:41\]](#transcript-00-02-41-44) Oh, that's but then the way they want to go about doing the conference, apparently, is rather than giving talks about preaching, they want the speakers to preach sermons from different genres of scripture.

[\[00:02:52\]](#transcript-00-02-52-45) Oh, there you go.

[\[00:02:52\]](#transcript-00-02-52-46) And I believe they've given me the Pauline epistles a message of my choosing.

[\[00:02:59\]](#transcript-00-02-59-47) It's like, here, you get the golden pot.

[\[00:03:01\]](#transcript-00-03-01-48) Have fun, you know, where it's easy to find.

[\[00:03:04\]](#transcript-00-03-04-49) I mean, I'm in Romans right now.

[\[00:03:07\]](#transcript-00-03-07-50) It's like the issue is going to be: I preach 48 to 50-minute sermons, and I think they're going to want this to be more like 40.

[\[00:03:15\]](#transcript-00-03-15-51) So I'm going to, you're probably going to have to do a little editing down.

[\[00:03:18\]](#transcript-00-03-18-52) Andrew, Andrew Johnson, who works for Theocast, came and visited you, and he's like, Yeah, he preaches longer than you do.

[\[00:03:23\]](#transcript-00-03-23-53) I was like, Yeah, it's because he can.

[\[00:03:25\]](#transcript-00-03-25-54) I can't.

[\[00:03:26\]](#transcript-00-03-26-55) Anyways, compliment my brother.

[\[00:03:28\]](#transcript-00-03-28-56) Hey, real quick, speaking of Justin and lecturing, Justin has some new lectures available on Theocast U.

[\[00:03:35\]](#transcript-00-03-35-57) He's going through covenant theology.

[\[00:03:37\]](#transcript-00-03-37-58) I believe the Abrahamic covenant and the.

[\[00:03:40\]](#transcript-00-03-40-59) So Noahic Abrahamic and Mosaic should be uploaded have already been uploaded.

[\[00:03:44\]](#transcript-00-03-44-60) Yeah.

[\[00:03:45\]](#transcript-00-03-45-61) So by the time this comes out, you can go and listen to those.

[\[00:03:47\]](#transcript-00-03-47-62) If you want to know what the opportunity I'll be doing, I'll be doing the Davidic next month, so that should be up.

[\[00:03:52\]](#transcript-00-03-52-63) There you go.

[\[00:03:53\]](#transcript-00-03-53-64) That is a program that we started for Sempara Framanda, and it has 22, 21 lecture or classes that have multiple lectures in them.

[\[00:04:03\]](#transcript-00-04-03-65) And so, yeah, I've got a leadership development class that's 10 months long, and we are already have uploaded five of those.

[\[00:04:10\]](#transcript-00-04-10-66) The ones that I just did recently was on the history of creeds and confessions.

[\[00:04:14\]](#transcript-00-04-14-67) It's a two-hour lecture with notes.

[\[00:04:16\]](#transcript-00-04-16-68) So that's the kind of stuff that you can expect in there.

[\[00:04:19\]](#transcript-00-04-19-69) That's it.

[\[00:04:19\]](#transcript-00-04-19-70) That's all my advertisements for the week, brother.

[\[00:04:22\]](#transcript-00-04-22-71) Word.

[\[00:04:23\]](#transcript-00-04-23-72) So we're now going to pivot to our topic for the day, which I think, in some regards, you're going to set up for us.

[\[00:04:30\]](#transcript-00-04-30-73) Yeah.

[\[00:04:31\]](#transcript-00-04-31-74) So, why don't you go ahead and do that for the listener, Jon?

[\[00:04:35\]](#transcript-00-04-35-75) Yeah, we titled this Why You Can't Stop Sinning.

[\[00:04:38\]](#transcript-00-04-38-76) And we try and title things in a way that will clarify what we're talking about and also grab your attention at the same time.

[\[00:04:46\]](#transcript-00-04-46-77) We don't want you to sin.

[\[00:04:48\]](#transcript-00-04-48-78) I don't want to sin.

[\[00:04:49\]](#transcript-00-04-49-79) Man, if I could go another day without sinning, but waiting for Jesus to come back, I guarantee you my life would be better.

[\[00:04:55\]](#transcript-00-04-55-80) 100%.

[\[00:04:55\]](#transcript-00-04-55-81) Amen, brother.

[\[00:04:56\]](#transcript-00-04-56-82) Yeah.

[\[00:04:56\]](#transcript-00-04-56-83) And I strive for that every day.

[\[00:04:58\]](#transcript-00-04-58-84) Really do.

[\[00:04:58\]](#transcript-00-04-58-85) Hate sin.

[\[00:05:00\]](#transcript-00-05-00-86) Utilize confession because my God says it's there and I am not ashamed of it.

[\[00:05:04\]](#transcript-00-05-04-87) So, Justin, one of the things that's complicated about the world that we live in, we are very thankful for our reformed and conservative brothers, our dispensational brothers and evangelicals who are out there who don't even know what they

[\[00:05:16\]](#transcript-00-05-16-88) are, but are very concerned about the gospel and about holy living.

[\[00:05:21\]](#transcript-00-05-21-89) So, man, arm in arm, thankful.

[\[00:05:23\]](#transcript-00-05-23-90) Praise God for you people.

[\[00:05:24\]](#transcript-00-05-24-91) You're our brothers and sisters.

[\[00:05:26\]](#transcript-00-05-26-92) But at times, we can get theologically confused, get our roads crossed, and crash into some other theological lanes that shouldn't be crashed into.

[\[00:05:36\]](#transcript-00-05-36-93) And this is definitely one of them.

[\[00:05:38\]](#transcript-00-05-38-94) We will say things like, oh, yeah, for sure, for sure.

[\[00:05:41\]](#transcript-00-05-41-95) Christians are going to sin, they're going to sin.

[\[00:05:43\]](#transcript-00-05-43-96) But, and then it's like, it almost feels as if that's the abnormal experience of the Christian life.

[\[00:05:51\]](#transcript-00-05-51-97) Like, if you're a sinning, then there might be something wrong with you because normal Christians don't do that.

[\[00:05:57\]](#transcript-00-05-57-98) Normal Christians, you know, and I, I don't, this is such a childish word, but it's like Christian, me Christians may have boo-boos, but they don't have any, you know, big ones that, and that's just not how the experience

[\[00:06:08\]](#transcript-00-06-08-99) of the one, that's not my experience.

[\[00:06:11\]](#transcript-00-06-11-100) I'm sure anybody that's listening is not your experience.

[\[00:06:14\]](#transcript-00-06-14-101) No, and it, we can't, we never base theology off experience.

[\[00:06:18\]](#transcript-00-06-18-102) Don't ever do that.

[\[00:06:19\]](#transcript-00-06-19-103) It's just not what we do.

[\[00:06:21\]](#transcript-00-06-21-104) But the scripture has a lot to say.

[\[00:06:25\]](#transcript-00-06-25-105) And sometimes, Justin and I will speak in generalities, like generally, this is what the Bible says.

[\[00:06:30\]](#transcript-00-06-30-106) We thought we'd go ahead and just dive into a text to show you that clearly Paul teaches this.

[\[00:06:36\]](#transcript-00-06-36-107) And Justin's been going through Romans 7.

[\[00:06:39\]](#transcript-00-06-39-108) We'll put his sermons down in the link.

[\[00:06:41\]](#transcript-00-06-41-109) You can listen to all of his sermons anywhere you listen to a podcast, but this specific one, if you want to hear it in a long form, like 50 minutes, you can.

[\[00:06:48\]](#transcript-00-06-48-110) Oh, yeah, and you'd get two 50-minute sermons on Romans 77.

[\[00:06:54\]](#transcript-00-06-54-111) And this is vacation season, so there you go.

[\[00:06:57\]](#transcript-00-06-57-112) You know, you can put it in double speed and you're good to go.

[\[00:07:00\]](#transcript-00-07-00-113) Justin, give us initial thoughts on this.

[\[00:07:02\]](#transcript-00-07-02-114) I know you have some additional thoughts, and then walk us through Romans 7 for about a little bit, and then a few minutes.

[\[00:07:07\]](#transcript-00-07-07-115) And then we'll just talk.

[\[00:07:08\]](#transcript-00-07-08-116) Exactly.

[\[00:07:09\]](#transcript-00-07-09-117) Yeah.

[\[00:07:11\]](#transcript-00-07-11-118) Man, there's a lot that could be said.

[\[00:07:16\]](#transcript-00-07-16-119) I mean, there's a debate.

[\[00:07:18\]](#transcript-00-07-18-120) Let's just start here.

[\[00:07:19\]](#transcript-00-07-19-121) Yeah.

[\[00:07:19\]](#transcript-00-07-19-122) There's a debate about Romans chapter 7 that has existed through the history of the church as to whether Paul is writing this passage of scripture as a Christian.

[\[00:07:29\]](#transcript-00-07-29-123) Can I interject?

[\[00:07:30\]](#transcript-00-07-30-124) Sure.

[\[00:07:31\]](#transcript-00-07-31-125) And say that it goes back to as early as Augustine.

[\[00:07:35\]](#transcript-00-07-35-126) Yeah.

[\[00:07:35\]](#transcript-00-07-35-127) As Augustine and Augustine, yeah.

[\[00:07:38\]](#transcript-00-07-38-128) And we may acknowledge some of this in a minute.

[\[00:07:40\]](#transcript-00-07-40-129) So there's a debate that's existed regarding Romans 7 because the language is so strong.

[\[00:07:45\]](#transcript-00-07-45-130) and Paul uses language that I think on the surface of it, if you're not trying to understand it, well, everybody's trying to understand it.

[\[00:07:54\]](#transcript-00-07-54-131) I don't impugn motivations, but I understand why people, given the strength of the language that exists in Romans 7, would sometimes be nervous to say, yeah, he's writing as a Christian, because, man, what does this say about us?

[\[00:08:07\]](#transcript-00-08-07-132) And does this contradict some of our other understandings about the new nature we've been given through regeneration, etc.

[\[00:08:14\]](#transcript-00-08-14-133) We're going to get into some of those things today.

[\[00:08:16\]](#transcript-00-08-16-134) I'm going to go ahead and state from the outset that our understanding, you've already basically implied this, is that Paul most certainly is writing as a Christian in Romans 7.

[\[00:08:26\]](#transcript-00-08-26-135) He's writing about his own experience as a regenerate man.

[\[00:08:30\]](#transcript-00-08-30-136) And I don't think that I said this in preaching through the text.

[\[00:08:34\]](#transcript-00-08-34-137) I'm going to go and say it for our podcast today.

[\[00:08:36\]](#transcript-00-08-36-138) I don't feel the need to approach this polemically

[\[00:08:41\]](#transcript-00-08-41-139) or in any way

[\[00:08:44\]](#transcript-00-08-44-140) antagonistically toward the other perspective.

[\[00:08:47\]](#transcript-00-08-47-141) I don't think that's needed.

[\[00:08:48\]](#transcript-00-08-48-142) I don't think we need to go in to a text like Romans 7 with a polemical perspective because I think once you read the words and just expound on them in their most obvious way and their most obvious

[\[00:08:57\]](#transcript-00-08-57-143) meaning, it becomes apparent to everyone that, yeah, he's writing as a believer.

[\[00:09:03\]](#transcript-00-09-03-144) The context of the whole letter of Romans, I think, makes that plain.

[\[00:09:06\]](#transcript-00-09-06-145) And then, in addition to all the exegetical pieces, you just said we don't want to build a theology on experience.

[\[00:09:11\]](#transcript-00-09-11-146) I completely agree.

[\[00:09:12\]](#transcript-00-09-12-147) And then, yet, if we're aiming to do faithful exegesis in the context of the whole Bible, in the context of the book that it's in, in the immediate context in terms of the flow of Paul's argument in Romans

[\[00:09:25\]](#transcript-00-09-25-148) 5, 6, 7, etc., and on top of that, we hear the words, and every one of us knows,

[\[00:09:35\]](#transcript-00-09-35-149) yeah, he's writing about me and he's reading my mail.

[\[00:09:39\]](#transcript-00-09-39-150) And truer words have never been written about my Christian experience.

[\[00:09:43\]](#transcript-00-09-43-151) At least I haven't read them.

[\[00:09:45\]](#transcript-00-09-45-152) When you add that experiential, existential piece to it, I think it makes it all the more compelling.

[\[00:09:52\]](#transcript-00-09-52-153) And so, yeah, I want to acknowledge the debate that exists.

[\[00:09:56\]](#transcript-00-09-56-154) I want to make plain our position.

[\[00:09:58\]](#transcript-00-09-58-155) Augustine, you mentioned him in the earlier years of his public ministry.

[\[00:10:02\]](#transcript-00-10-02-156) He understood Paul to be writing about himself in an unregenerate state, and then pivoted later in his life to understand Romans 7 to be written by Paul as a Christian.

[\[00:10:12\]](#transcript-00-10-12-157) And then, in terms of the reformed tradition, whether we're talking about Martin Luther or John Calvin or just the confessional traditions, I mean, our own confession, Jon, cites Romans 7 repeatedly regarding language of the internal war and the

[\[00:10:25\]](#transcript-00-10-25-158) battle of the spirit against the flesh and the fact that we will not be fully sanctified in this life, etc.

[\[00:10:30\]](#transcript-00-10-30-159) So our own confessional tradition is very clear that we understand Romans 7 to be written by Paul as a believer, as a regenerate man.

[\[00:10:38\]](#transcript-00-10-38-160) So, having said that, let's do a little bit of exegesis and some exegetical work here so that if people have their Bibles open, or maybe you're driving and that's not possible.

[\[00:10:48\]](#transcript-00-10-48-161) Don't worry about it.

[\[00:10:49\]](#transcript-00-10-49-162) I'm going to try to set the context for you.

[\[00:10:51\]](#transcript-00-10-51-163) So, Romans 5, most people know Paul's been talking pointedly at the end of that chapter about the imputation of Christ's righteousness, the biblical truth of covenant representation, that just as we were imputed with, counted with Adam's guilt, we

[\[00:11:05\]](#transcript-00-11-05-164) are counted with Christ's righteousness by faith.

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-165) And then Paul goes into Romans 6 to talk beautifully and write beautifully about our union with the Lord Jesus and what this means for our Christian lives and for our sanctification.

[\[00:11:19\]](#transcript-00-11-19-166) And in particular, in Romans 6 and verse 14, Paul makes a statement of fact that sin will not have dominion over believers.

[\[00:11:28\]](#transcript-00-11-28-167) And he grounds it in this reality: since you are not under law, but under grace.

[\[00:11:34\]](#transcript-00-11-34-168) Now, he's already talked about being united to Jesus, but then he grounds it again.

[\[00:11:38\]](#transcript-00-11-38-169) Sin's not going to have dominion over you, fact, because you're not under the law anymore, you're under grace.

[\[00:11:44\]](#transcript-00-11-44-170) Beginning in Romans 7:1 and following, he's going to unpack that principle more.

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-171) Because in Romans 7, 1 to 6, he makes plain that through our union with Christ, we no longer belong to the law.

[\[00:11:58\]](#transcript-00-11-58-172) We belong to Jesus now.

[\[00:12:00\]](#transcript-00-12-00-173) The law used to be our husband, but now our bridegroom is Christ.

[\[00:12:04\]](#transcript-00-12-04-174) And this occurred through our union with Jesus and our death in Him.

[\[00:12:09\]](#transcript-00-12-09-175) His death is counted as our death.

[\[00:12:11\]](#transcript-00-12-11-176) And so now the law no longer has hold on, and in Christ, we died to it so that we might belong to Jesus.

[\[00:12:20\]](#transcript-00-12-20-177) And this is how we bear fruit for God, Paul says.

[\[00:12:23\]](#transcript-00-12-23-178) Then in Romans 7:5, he indicates that when we were in our fallen, corrupt, natural state, all the law did was exacerbate our sinful passions.

[\[00:12:33\]](#transcript-00-12-33-179) It made things worse.

[\[00:12:35\]](#transcript-00-12-35-180) Right.

[\[00:12:36\]](#transcript-00-12-36-181) Then in Romans 7:6, he says, but we've been released from the law.

[\[00:12:41\]](#transcript-00-12-41-182) He reiterates that again, having died to that which used to hold us captive.

[\[00:12:44\]](#transcript-00-12-44-183) And then he says that the result of this is that we serve God now in the new way of the spirit, not in the old way of the written code.

[\[00:12:53\]](#transcript-00-12-53-184) Okay, pause button.

[\[00:12:54\]](#transcript-00-12-54-185) All of that that I've just articulated raises some questions about the law.

[\[00:13:00\]](#transcript-00-13-00-186) If everything you're writing, Paul, is true, then is the law good or is it somehow bad, right?

[\[00:13:06\]](#transcript-00-13-06-187) Like if it only served to exacerbate our sinful passions, and if we needed to be set free from the law in order to actually serve God in the spirit and bear fruit for him, maybe there's something wrong with

[\[00:13:16\]](#transcript-00-13-16-188) the law, then, which is where he turns in Romans 7 and verse 7.

[\[00:13:22\]](#transcript-00-13-22-189) He asks the question: What then shall we say?

[\[00:13:25\]](#transcript-00-13-25-190) That the law is sin?

[\[00:13:26\]](#transcript-00-13-26-191) And then he answers it in a way that we're used to if we've been reading through the book of Romans with this indignant, emphatic, no way, by no means, right?

[\[00:13:34\]](#transcript-00-13-34-192) Excellent.

[\[00:13:35\]](#transcript-00-13-35-193) Right.

[\[00:13:36\]](#transcript-00-13-36-194) But then he goes on effectively to do this.

[\[00:13:39\]](#transcript-00-13-39-195) He says there's nothing wrong with the law.

[\[00:13:42\]](#transcript-00-13-42-196) The problem is sin in us.

[\[00:13:44\]](#transcript-00-13-44-197) And then he begins to write about himself.

[\[00:13:47\]](#transcript-00-13-47-198) And he says, more or less, that through the law he came to understand himself to be a sinner.

[\[00:13:54\]](#transcript-00-13-54-199) Right?

[\[00:13:54\]](#transcript-00-13-54-200) This is huge.

[\[00:13:55\]](#transcript-00-13-55-201) We can't miss this.

[\[00:13:56\]](#transcript-00-13-56-202) Like, is Paul writing as a regenerate man?

[\[00:13:58\]](#transcript-00-13-58-203) Absolutely, he is.

[\[00:13:59\]](#transcript-00-13-59-204) This is the first point of our argument on that front.

[\[00:14:02\]](#transcript-00-14-02-205) That he had just said that in our fallen natural state, the law only exacerbated our passions.

[\[00:14:07\]](#transcript-00-14-07-206) It didn't do anything good for you unless the law comes with the power of the Holy Spirit, then everything's different.

[\[00:14:15\]](#transcript-00-14-15-207) Because if the law comes with the ministry of the Holy Spirit and you have eyes to see the law's standard at a spiritual level, at a heart level, it crushes all of your legal hopes.

[\[00:14:26\]](#transcript-00-14-26-208) Like, remember what Paul had written about himself in terms of his life before he had an encounter with the risen Lord Jesus, Philippians chapter three, right?

[\[00:14:35\]](#transcript-00-14-35-209) Hebrew of Hebrews.

[\[00:14:37\]](#transcript-00-14-37-210) You know, as to he's a righteous under the law, blameless, right?

[\[00:14:42\]](#transcript-00-14-42-211) Talks about being a Pharisee that was just absolutely crushing that life.

[\[00:14:46\]](#transcript-00-14-46-212) And so he had tremendous confidence in himself prior to encountering the risen Lord Jesus.

[\[00:14:52\]](#transcript-00-14-52-213) But here he says that when he had eyes to effectively see the law this way, it crushed his legal hopes.

[\[00:15:00\]](#transcript-00-15-00-214) He was convinced by the law that he was a sinner who had no righteousness before the Lord.

[\[00:15:06\]](#transcript-00-15-06-215) So, this is the first and greatest use of the law in Paul's life.

[\[00:15:11\]](#transcript-00-15-11-216) The law is holy and righteous and good, he says in verse 12.

[\[00:15:15\]](#transcript-00-15-15-217) And the commandments, everything that it commands, holy, righteous, and good.

[\[00:15:20\]](#transcript-00-15-20-218) Then, verse 13, did that which is good then bring death to me?

[\[00:15:24\]](#transcript-00-15-24-219) By no means, he says, no way.

[\[00:15:26\]](#transcript-00-15-26-220) It was sin producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

[\[00:15:34\]](#transcript-00-15-34-221) The law's first and greatest use is to show us the depth of our sin, the depth of our corruption, and bring us to the end of ourselves for righteousness.

[\[00:15:42\]](#transcript-00-15-42-222) That happened for Paul.

[\[00:15:44\]](#transcript-00-15-44-223) That's what he says right there.

[\[00:15:46\]](#transcript-00-15-46-224) So I want to begin there.

[\[00:15:47\]](#transcript-00-15-47-225) Then he pivots in verse 14 and following.

[\[00:15:50\]](#transcript-00-15-50-226) He says that the law is spiritual, it requires a spiritual, heavenly righteousness, and the law was given by God Himself.

[\[00:15:58\]](#transcript-00-15-58-227) But then, when it comes to Him, He's like, I'm of the flesh, and I'm sold under sin.

[\[00:16:03\]](#transcript-00-16-03-228) When He says sold under sin, don't get tripped up over that.

[\[00:16:05\]](#transcript-00-16-05-229) All He's talking about is the fall of Adam.

[\[00:16:07\]](#transcript-00-16-07-230) That's right.

[\[00:16:07\]](#transcript-00-16-07-231) We were all sold under sin when Adam fell.

[\[00:16:11\]](#transcript-00-16-11-232) So that's what he says.

[\[00:16:12\]](#transcript-00-16-12-233) Then he goes on to describe his day-over-day experience as a Christian.

[\[00:16:16\]](#transcript-00-16-16-234) For I don't understand my own actions.

[\[00:16:18\]](#transcript-00-16-18-235) I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

[\[00:16:22\]](#transcript-00-16-22-236) And that's where we all read that.

[\[00:16:23\]](#transcript-00-16-23-237) And it brings tears to our eyes because we are like, I have been there countless times.

[\[00:16:28\]](#transcript-00-16-28-238) He goes on.

[\[00:16:29\]](#transcript-00-16-29-239) Now, if I don't do what I want, I agree with the law that it's good.

[\[00:16:32\]](#transcript-00-16-32-240) That's easy to understand.

[\[00:16:34\]](#transcript-00-16-34-241) If I hate when I break the law, then I am agreeing with the law and the standard of the law that what the law teaches is good and right and pure.

[\[00:16:45\]](#transcript-00-16-45-242) But the problem is, I can't live up to it.

[\[00:16:48\]](#transcript-00-16-48-243) But I'm agreeing with the Lord and I'm agreeing with the law.

[\[00:16:51\]](#transcript-00-16-51-244) Only believers feel this way, only believers see the law like this.

[\[00:16:55\]](#transcript-00-16-55-245) We're going to continue on.

[\[00:16:56\]](#transcript-00-16-56-246) Verse 17: it's no longer, I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-247) So here he's getting into the principle of indwelling sin.

[\[00:17:03\]](#transcript-00-17-03-248) And we're going to talk more about this later.

[\[00:17:05\]](#transcript-00-17-05-249) We have been given a new nature in the Lord Jesus Christ, praise the Lord.

[\[00:17:09\]](#transcript-00-17-09-250) And the corpse of the old man remains.

[\[00:17:12\]](#transcript-00-17-12-251) That's right.

[\[00:17:13\]](#transcript-00-17-13-252) And here's the reality: this is pivotal for our understanding.

[\[00:17:16\]](#transcript-00-17-16-253) The corpse of the old nature is not made holy.

[\[00:17:20\]](#transcript-00-17-20-254) There's a reason we still need to die.

[\[00:17:23\]](#transcript-00-17-23-255) We will be rid of the corpse of that old nature when we die or Christ returns, and we will be raised like 1 Peter, right?

[\[00:17:29\]](#transcript-00-17-29-256) Incorruptible, imperishable.

[\[00:17:31\]](#transcript-00-17-31-257) But until then, that corpse of the old nature is only corrupt and it remains with us.

[\[00:17:36\]](#transcript-00-17-36-258) This is what he's talking about here.

[\[00:17:38\]](#transcript-00-17-38-259) Then, verse 18: For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is in my flesh.

[\[00:17:43\]](#transcript-00-17-43-260) That's a qualification he only needs to make if he's writing as a regenerate man.

[\[00:17:47\]](#transcript-00-17-47-261) Because if he's unregenerate, all he is is flesh.

[\[00:17:50\]](#transcript-00-17-50-262) But as a regenerate man, he's saying, There's nothing good in my flesh because there is actually something good in his inner man now.

[\[00:17:56\]](#transcript-00-17-56-263) There is something good in his new nature.

[\[00:17:58\]](#transcript-00-17-58-264) It's called the sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

[\[00:18:00\]](#transcript-00-18-00-265) That's what he's indicating here.

[\[00:18:02\]](#transcript-00-18-02-266) So there's nothing good in his flesh.

[\[00:18:03\]](#transcript-00-18-03-267) And then he says again, these gripping words: For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

[\[00:18:10\]](#transcript-00-18-10-268) Dear listener, have you ever been there?

[\[00:18:13\]](#transcript-00-18-13-269) I've been there countless times.

[\[00:18:14\]](#transcript-00-18-14-270) So has Jon.

[\[00:18:16\]](#transcript-00-18-16-271) Verse 19.

[\[00:18:16\]](#transcript-00-18-16-272) For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

[\[00:18:21\]](#transcript-00-18-21-273) And we're like, yes, it's so true.

[\[00:18:24\]](#transcript-00-18-24-274) We're grieved.

[\[00:18:25\]](#transcript-00-18-25-275) We lament the fact that that's the case, but it is true.

[\[00:18:29\]](#transcript-00-18-29-276) And brief insertion: only regenerate people look at the law and say that it's good.

[\[00:18:36\]](#transcript-00-18-36-277) Only regenerate people love the Lord, want to honor Him, and are grieved at the thought of offefending Him.

[\[00:18:42\]](#transcript-00-18-42-278) We continue on.

[\[00:18:43\]](#transcript-00-18-43-279) Verse 20.

[\[00:18:44\]](#transcript-00-18-44-280) Now, if I do not do what I want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

[\[00:18:48\]](#transcript-00-18-48-281) So there he goes again.

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-282) This is not an excuse.

[\[00:18:51\]](#transcript-00-18-51-283) No.

[\[00:18:51\]](#transcript-00-18-51-284) We're not exonerated, but what he's saying is there is a battle and an internal war that exists between my spirit and my flesh, my inner man, the regenerate part of me, and the corpse of the old nature, right?

[\[00:19:04\]](#transcript-00-19-04-285) They're at war with one another.

[\[00:19:05\]](#transcript-00-19-05-286) He says the same thing in Galatians 5:17.

[\[00:19:08\]](#transcript-00-19-08-287) And this war is what keeps you from doing what you want to do.

[\[00:19:12\]](#transcript-00-19-12-288) So, then I'm going to quickly go through these last few verses.

[\[00:19:15\]](#transcript-00-19-15-289) I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.

[\[00:19:18\]](#transcript-00-19-18-290) So, this principle of this internal war and this principle of I want to do what's right, but evil is there.

[\[00:19:26\]](#transcript-00-19-26-291) That principle is so strong and abiding that Paul refers to it as a law.

[\[00:19:31\]](#transcript-00-19-31-292) This is how it is.

[\[00:19:33\]](#transcript-00-19-33-293) Then he goes on, for I delight in the law of God and my inner being.

[\[00:19:37\]](#transcript-00-19-37-294) Again, only a regenerate person can say such a thing because that is a grace from God.

[\[00:19:42\]](#transcript-00-19-42-295) And by the way, nobody delights in something that is their death sentence.

[\[00:19:46\]](#transcript-00-19-46-296) That's right.

[\[00:19:47\]](#transcript-00-19-47-297) Only people who are forgiven, justified, and absolved would ever say, I delight in the law of God in my inner man.

[\[00:19:53\]](#transcript-00-19-53-298) Then he goes on, but I see in my members, right, my flesh, another law waging war against the law of my mind.

[\[00:20:00\]](#transcript-00-20-00-299) That's another, the law of my mind clearly is his inner man, his regenerate part, and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

[\[00:20:08\]](#transcript-00-20-08-300) Don't let that language of captivity flip you out either.

[\[00:20:11\]](#transcript-00-20-11-301) This is what happens to you and me every time we're just absolutely captured in sinful thoughts when we can't shake them, when we go on and indulge in something, we are overtaken.

[\[00:20:25\]](#transcript-00-20-25-302) It is what occurs, right?

[\[00:20:27\]](#transcript-00-20-27-303) So that's what Paul's describing.

[\[00:20:29\]](#transcript-00-20-29-304) Then the cry of every believer: wretched man that I am.

[\[00:20:34\]](#transcript-00-20-34-305) Again, his cry before Philippians 3.

[\[00:20:38\]](#transcript-00-20-38-306) What was his cry before he'd encountered the risen Lord Christ?

[\[00:20:41\]](#transcript-00-20-41-307) Righteous man that I am.

[\[00:20:42\]](#transcript-00-20-42-308) That was his boast.

[\[00:20:45\]](#transcript-00-20-45-309) Now he says, Wretched man that I am.

[\[00:20:47\]](#transcript-00-20-47-310) That's his cry.

[\[00:20:49\]](#transcript-00-20-49-311) That only happens through regeneration.

[\[00:20:51\]](#transcript-00-20-51-312) That's true.

[\[00:20:51\]](#transcript-00-20-51-313) Only happens through being given eyes to see.

[\[00:20:53\]](#transcript-00-20-53-314) So, wretched man that I am, he says, who will deliver me from this body of death?

[\[00:20:58\]](#transcript-00-20-58-315) And again, notice he's writing as a regenerate man with hope in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[\[00:21:02\]](#transcript-00-21-02-316) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[\[00:21:05\]](#transcript-00-21-05-317) Who will deliver me?

[\[00:21:07\]](#transcript-00-21-07-318) Jesus will.

[\[00:21:09\]](#transcript-00-21-09-319) That's his answer.

[\[00:21:10\]](#transcript-00-21-10-320) So then, putting a bow on the whole conversation, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, his inner man, his regenerate nature, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

[\[00:21:21\]](#transcript-00-21-21-321) This is the internal war that is the experience of every believer.

[\[00:21:24\]](#transcript-00-21-24-322) It is ongoing, it is irreconcilable.

[\[00:21:28\]](#transcript-00-21-28-323) Our confession says that.

[\[00:21:29\]](#transcript-00-21-29-324) The scriptures bear it out.

[\[00:21:31\]](#transcript-00-21-31-325) And this is meant to, a last comment from me, and then we'll just talk pastorly, Jon, and just popcorn thoughts back and forth, because I know I have a lot.

[\[00:21:39\]](#transcript-00-21-39-326) So do you.

[\[00:21:41\]](#transcript-00-21-41-327) This truth and these truths that we're articulating here that Paul writes so beautifully.

[\[00:21:46\]](#transcript-00-21-46-328) I mean, first of all, thank God for these words because it's what we go through.

[\[00:21:50\]](#transcript-00-21-50-329) The Lord isn't silent on this war and this battle, and the fact that we often are just discouraged and disheartened in it.

[\[00:21:57\]](#transcript-00-21-57-330) Because I mean, Paul is clearly battling those same feelings because he's crying out to the Lord.

[\[00:22:03\]](#transcript-00-22-03-331) I'm wretched.

[\[00:22:05\]](#transcript-00-22-05-332) And we're all like, yeah, I get it.

[\[00:22:07\]](#transcript-00-22-07-333) So, these words are actually not meant to discourage us.

[\[00:22:11\]](#transcript-00-22-11-334) These words are a great comfort to us because we realize that it's not that Christianity didn't take with me, it's not that I'm a faker, it's that, nah, like the Apostle Paul, I am engaged in a war, that's

[\[00:22:27\]](#transcript-00-22-27-335) right, and there are going to be plenty of times when that war doesn't seem like it's going very well, like our confession even says, it may seem that the flesh is greatly prevailing for a time.

[\[00:22:39\]](#transcript-00-22-39-336) 5.5.

[\[00:22:40\]](#transcript-00-22-40-337) And 13.3.

[\[00:22:42\]](#transcript-00-22-42-338) Same thing, right?

[\[00:22:44\]](#transcript-00-22-44-339) But the regenerate part overcomes.

[\[00:22:46\]](#transcript-00-22-46-340) That's right.

[\[00:22:46\]](#transcript-00-22-46-341) Because the Lord will see it through.

[\[00:22:48\]](#transcript-00-22-48-342) And so this was the experience of the apostle.

[\[00:22:51\]](#transcript-00-22-51-343) And so we can take heart that we're experiencing nothing new, that this has been what the saints have known from the beginning of the faith.

[\[00:23:00\]](#transcript-00-23-00-344) That's right.

[\[00:23:03\]](#transcript-00-23-03-345) If you're new to Theocast, we have a free e-book available for you called Faith versus Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest.

[\[00:23:10\]](#transcript-00-23-10-346) And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a reformed confessional perspective.

[\[00:23:21\]](#transcript-00-23-21-347) You can get your free copy at theocast.org/slash primer.

[\[00:23:28\]](#transcript-00-23-28-348) So theologically, this is really important to understand.

[\[00:23:32\]](#transcript-00-23-32-349) And this is because we don't think of, we don't think eschatologically, we don't think about the world to end and the world to come.

[\[00:23:38\]](#transcript-00-23-38-350) We get stuck in a present world.

[\[00:23:40\]](#transcript-00-23-40-351) And when you do that, you don't understand.

[\[00:23:42\]](#transcript-00-23-42-352) So, for instance, the Christian experiences this: two deaths, two births, one resurrection.

[\[00:23:48\]](#transcript-00-23-48-353) That's how it works, right?

[\[00:23:50\]](#transcript-00-23-50-354) You were born into sin, that's your first death, right?

[\[00:23:54\]](#transcript-00-23-54-355) And then you're going to physically die, that's your second death.

[\[00:23:57\]](#transcript-00-23-57-356) So you have an actual physical birth and then a physical death.

[\[00:23:59\]](#transcript-00-23-59-357) You have a spiritual death, you have a spiritual birth, and then we're not Platonists.

[\[00:24:04\]](#transcript-00-24-04-358) We have a real resurrection where we're going to come back with our bodies.

[\[00:24:08\]](#transcript-00-24-08-359) Now, some people, when you understand this and you understand, first of all, a covenant understanding of scripture, which is a covenant of redemption, God is redeeming the world, and there is an already not yet factor that's happening.

[\[00:24:22\]](#transcript-00-24-22-360) God brings his children to life in their current state, our bodies that we're in, that we may take this body and use it like a tank.

[\[00:24:34\]](#transcript-00-24-34-361) We're using it like a tank, it's gonna be destroyed.

[\[00:24:37\]](#transcript-00-24-37-362) And the wielding that tank is complicated at times because it's got its own will, it's got its own mind, but we're supposed to use it to go into the kingdom of darkness and bring other people to life by

[\[00:24:49\]](#transcript-00-24-49-363) shooting the gospel, right?

[\[00:24:50\]](#transcript-00-24-50-364) We're proclaimers of the gospel.

[\[00:24:52\]](#transcript-00-24-52-365) And Paul is like, man, as I do this mission of taking the redemption of Christ around the world.

[\[00:24:59\]](#transcript-00-24-59-366) I'm wrestling this thing, and it wins at times.

[\[00:25:02\]](#transcript-00-25-02-367) But the thing is, he doesn't quit the fight because the goal, and this is what I love, Justin.

[\[00:25:07\]](#transcript-00-25-07-368) I'm going to do this a little bit of an introduction into next week, okay?

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-369) Because he understands the ultimate aim is not overcoming the flesh.

[\[00:25:15\]](#transcript-00-25-15-370) The ultimate aim is to fight the flesh because we have a bigger fight.

[\[00:25:18\]](#transcript-00-25-18-371) Exactly.

[\[00:25:18\]](#transcript-00-25-18-372) And that's the advancement of the gospel.

[\[00:25:21\]](#transcript-00-25-21-373) But to say that you're not going to wrestle your flesh is absolutely foolish.

[\[00:25:27\]](#transcript-00-25-27-374) You are going to wrestle it.

[\[00:25:29\]](#transcript-00-25-29-375) And not only like every day, you're going to wrestle it from moment to moment, from second to second.

[\[00:25:35\]](#transcript-00-25-35-376) We've all been in this moment where we're not thinking anything sinful.

[\[00:25:39\]](#transcript-00-25-39-377) Oh, how many of you have been in prayer in church, right?

[\[00:25:42\]](#transcript-00-25-42-378) Yeah.

[\[00:25:43\]](#transcript-00-25-43-379) And all of a sudden you're like, what is that in my brain?

[\[00:25:46\]](#transcript-00-25-46-380) Where did this come from?

[\[00:25:47\]](#transcript-00-25-47-381) Why?

[\[00:25:47\]](#transcript-00-25-47-382) Like, what?

[\[00:25:49\]](#transcript-00-25-49-383) As though it came from nowhere.

[\[00:25:50\]](#transcript-00-25-50-384) Like, or, or, yeah, you have that, you have that experience.

[\[00:25:53\]](#transcript-00-25-53-385) Like, where, what, what is happening to me?

[\[00:25:55\]](#transcript-00-25-55-386) Where did this come from?

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-387) That's right.

[\[00:25:57\]](#transcript-00-25-57-388) Like, I'm having this thought of something that happened 15 years ago that I haven't thought about in five years.

[\[00:26:02\]](#transcript-00-26-02-389) And all of a sudden, I'm tripped up like crazy.

[\[00:26:04\]](#transcript-00-26-04-390) I can't get beyond it.

[\[00:26:05\]](#transcript-00-26-05-391) What in the world?

[\[00:26:06\]](#transcript-00-26-06-392) Where did this come from?

[\[00:26:07\]](#transcript-00-26-07-393) Right.

[\[00:26:08\]](#transcript-00-26-08-394) And it's coming from your flesh and it's spiritual warfare.

[\[00:26:11\]](#transcript-00-26-11-395) It's the enemy.

[\[00:26:12\]](#transcript-00-26-12-396) It's all kinds of things, right?

[\[00:26:13\]](#transcript-00-26-13-397) Can I jump in there real quick?

[\[00:26:14\]](#transcript-00-26-14-398) That spiritual warfare comment, and I'll come back to you.

[\[00:26:17\]](#transcript-00-26-17-399) Satan knows we are in a weak vessel, and he attacks that vessel to get out our spirit sometimes.

[\[00:26:23\]](#transcript-00-26-23-400) Sorry, go ahead.

[\[00:26:24\]](#transcript-00-26-24-401) Sure.

[\[00:26:24\]](#transcript-00-26-24-402) And I'm not trying to say that, like, Satan controls our minds or anything.

[\[00:26:28\]](#transcript-00-26-28-403) I'm not saying that, but there are real spiritual warfare that we engage in, and we battle against the corruption of the flesh, and it's intense.

[\[00:26:36\]](#transcript-00-26-36-404) And there are plenty of times, like you just said, where it just comes out of nowhere, and all of a sudden it's got its hooks in us, and we can't shake it.

[\[00:26:45\]](#transcript-00-26-45-405) And it's this whole business of being taken captive by the law of sin that Paul writes about, you know, and you're crying out for deliverance and for grace and for mercy, and like Lord, help me, because I got

[\[00:26:55\]](#transcript-00-26-55-406) nothing here.

[\[00:26:56\]](#transcript-00-26-56-407) And I'm distracted as the day is long.

[\[00:26:57\]](#transcript-00-26-57-408) And yeah, maybe I'm sitting in the assembly with the saints and I can't focus on anything we're doing because I'm such a frail creature, you know, in this regard.

[\[00:27:06\]](#transcript-00-27-06-409) Or, how many times have people had this thought?

[\[00:27:09\]](#transcript-00-27-09-410) I mean, this is related.

[\[00:27:11\]](#transcript-00-27-11-411) Um, if I'm a believer and I'm born again, how in the world could I have done that thing?

[\[00:27:22\]](#transcript-00-27-22-412) If I am united to the Lord Jesus Christ, how in the world could I have felt that or thought that or craved that.

[\[00:27:32\]](#transcript-00-27-32-413) That's our life, man.

[\[00:27:33\]](#transcript-00-27-33-414) That's our experience.

[\[00:27:35\]](#transcript-00-27-35-415) And we talked about this with Ken Jones on a pod a few weeks ago.

[\[00:27:38\]](#transcript-00-27-38-416) I'm just going to repeat it now because it's worth saying.

[\[00:27:42\]](#transcript-00-27-42-417) There is no sin save the unpardonable one, right?

[\[00:27:46\]](#transcript-00-27-46-418) The effectively the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit determining that Jesus is of the evil one and he can go to hell.

[\[00:27:53\]](#transcript-00-27-53-419) And having tasted and seen all that, we could talk about it some other time.

[\[00:27:57\]](#transcript-00-27-57-420) But outside of that, there's no sin that a Christian won't commit, that a Christian might not commit.

[\[00:28:01\]](#transcript-00-28-01-421) Right.

[\[00:28:02\]](#transcript-00-28-02-422) And like Ken said so well, there's no Christian, there's no sin that a Christian should commit.

[\[00:28:07\]](#transcript-00-28-07-423) That's right.

[\[00:28:08\]](#transcript-00-28-08-424) But there is no sin that a Christian might not commit.

[\[00:28:11\]](#transcript-00-28-11-425) We are all capable of all of these things, man, because of the corruption of the flesh.

[\[00:28:15\]](#transcript-00-28-15-426) Yeah, so let's give some logical and the battle doesn't go away.

[\[00:28:19\]](#transcript-00-28-19-427) No.

[\[00:28:19\]](#transcript-00-28-19-428) Yeah.

[\[00:28:20\]](#transcript-00-28-20-429) So you got, first of all, you have warnings.

[\[00:28:22\]](#transcript-00-28-22-430) Paul says, don't turn what your body was a slave to before to return to it.

[\[00:28:28\]](#transcript-00-28-28-431) Paul wouldn't say that if you could, or it might happen.

[\[00:28:31\]](#transcript-00-28-31-432) Church discipline, accountability, constant preaching of the gospel exists.

[\[00:28:36\]](#transcript-00-28-36-433) Exactly.

[\[00:28:36\]](#transcript-00-28-36-434) You have to, I don't think you can name an epistle where there isn't a warning of going back to the old way.

[\[00:28:43\]](#transcript-00-28-43-435) I just don't think there's an epistle where that's not there.

[\[00:28:46\]](#transcript-00-28-46-436) Right.

[\[00:28:47\]](#transcript-00-28-47-437) And what's interesting is that there is an epistle that's going to point you to use fleshly means to fight the flesh because you can't.

[\[00:28:55\]](#transcript-00-28-55-438) You can't fight the flesh with the flesh.

[\[00:28:56\]](#transcript-00-28-56-439) It won't happen.

[\[00:28:57\]](#transcript-00-28-57-440) Right.

[\[00:28:57\]](#transcript-00-28-57-441) Well, and what I was, I want to say this and double down on this to be really clear, because I think this is very important for us practically and experientially in our lives.

[\[00:29:05\]](#transcript-00-29-05-442) Because I think we have been taught some bad things on this front.

[\[00:29:08\]](#transcript-00-29-08-443) That's right.

[\[00:29:09\]](#transcript-00-29-09-444) And we also assume some bad things on this front.

[\[00:29:12\]](#transcript-00-29-12-445) What I said earlier is really important, and I know you agree, Jon, that the corpse of the old man remains, and the corpse of the old man, the flesh, is not made holy.

[\[00:29:21\]](#transcript-00-29-21-446) No.

[\[00:29:22\]](#transcript-00-29-22-447) Why does that matter?

[\[00:29:23\]](#transcript-00-29-23-448) Because I think a lot of times that's what we think about when we think about sanctification is that my flesh is becoming more holy.

[\[00:29:29\]](#transcript-00-29-29-449) And it's like, no, your inner man, your regenerate nature is being built up and strengthened and nourished and sustained in the Lord Jesus Christ by the ministry of His Spirit through the means of grace.

[\[00:29:40\]](#transcript-00-29-40-450) That's true.

[\[00:29:42\]](#transcript-00-29-42-451) And as that occurs for you, that will matter in your life.

[\[00:29:45\]](#transcript-00-29-45-452) Amen.

[\[00:29:47\]](#transcript-00-29-47-453) And yet, the flesh will always be corrupt and it will always be with you.

[\[00:29:52\]](#transcript-00-29-52-454) What does that mean?

[\[00:29:53\]](#transcript-00-29-53-455) It means that the battle against it is not going away.

[\[00:29:56\]](#transcript-00-29-56-456) I don't care how godly you are.

[\[00:29:58\]](#transcript-00-29-58-457) Like the most godly people, the godliest amongst us, will find nothing but death and corruption and ruin in their flesh.

[\[00:30:05\]](#transcript-00-30-05-458) And that flesh is there.

[\[00:30:07\]](#transcript-00-30-07-459) And then what this means is that the battle against the flesh, Jon, might be just as intense in 10 or 20 years from now as it is today.

[\[00:30:16\]](#transcript-00-30-16-460) That's right.

[\[00:30:16\]](#transcript-00-30-16-461) And that doesn't mean you haven't been sanctified.

[\[00:30:19\]](#transcript-00-30-19-462) You have.

[\[00:30:20\]](#transcript-00-30-20-463) But there are going to come times in seasons or moments like you were alluding to just a bit ago where the flesh rears its head and the battle is just as intense as it has ever been.

[\[00:30:31\]](#transcript-00-30-31-464) That's right.

[\[00:30:31\]](#transcript-00-30-31-465) And that's because that flesh is the same tomorrow as it is today.

[\[00:30:36\]](#transcript-00-30-36-466) It's going to be the same in 10 years as it is today.

[\[00:30:38\]](#transcript-00-30-38-467) It's death.

[\[00:30:40\]](#transcript-00-30-40-468) That's right.

[\[00:30:40\]](#transcript-00-30-40-469) And it's corruption.

[\[00:30:42\]](#transcript-00-30-42-470) And so this matters a ton for us as we even think about our growth and our sanctification and what we can expect as believers.

[\[00:30:49\]](#transcript-00-30-49-471) We resist the flesh.

[\[00:30:50\]](#transcript-00-30-50-472) You said it earlier.

[\[00:30:51\]](#transcript-00-30-51-473) We resist the flesh every day as we live by faith in the Son of God.

[\[00:30:54\]](#transcript-00-30-54-474) Yeah.

[\[00:30:56\]](#transcript-00-30-56-475) So I think what's interesting too is Paul didn't write this six months or even a year or two after his experience on the road to Emma.

[\[00:31:02\]](#transcript-00-31-02-476) Not the road to Damascus.

[\[00:31:06\]](#transcript-00-31-06-477) You have Paul writing a season in his life.

[\[00:31:08\]](#transcript-00-31-08-478) He's a seasoned believer.

[\[00:31:11\]](#transcript-00-31-11-479) And, you know, in what probably his, I think, his most famous work would be Romans.

[\[00:31:16\]](#transcript-00-31-16-480) You know, he puts this right smack dab right there in a most important part of this experience between six and eight, you know, six, eight, and nine, really.

[\[00:31:26\]](#transcript-00-31-26-481) Imputation, union with Jesus.

[\[00:31:28\]](#transcript-00-31-28-482) That's right.

[\[00:31:29\]](#transcript-00-31-29-483) Eternal hope.

[\[00:31:30\]](#transcript-00-31-30-484) There's this war.

[\[00:31:31\]](#transcript-00-31-31-485) Right.

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-486) Right.

[\[00:31:33\]](#transcript-00-31-33-487) you can, and I, Paul uses a lot of military tactics and language.

[\[00:31:37\]](#transcript-00-31-37-488) He uses, I mean, listen, he's using armor.

[\[00:31:39\]](#transcript-00-31-39-489) He's using swords, fiery darts, and Ephesians, right?

[\[00:31:44\]](#transcript-00-31-44-490) And I think what he's saying is you have to understand your weak points.

[\[00:31:49\]](#transcript-00-31-49-491) You got to understand where you're open to suscept, you know, you're susceptible for attack.

[\[00:31:54\]](#transcript-00-31-54-492) And this is why he says, don't make provision for your flesh, because if you do, your flesh will take over, it'll go after it.

[\[00:32:00\]](#transcript-00-32-00-493) I mean, you hear these types of links.

[\[00:32:01\]](#transcript-00-32-01-494) Why would you say don't make provision for your flesh?

[\[00:32:02\]](#transcript-00-32-02-495) Because, listen, you're dragging around a really powerful piece of material that will take you down if you let it.

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-496) That's right.

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-497) This is why the renewing of our mind, Romans 12, just fast forward a few chapters, right?

[\[00:32:16\]](#transcript-00-32-16-498) He says, What?

[\[00:32:17\]](#transcript-00-32-17-499) It's the constant renewing of the mind because the mind overpowers the flesh.

[\[00:32:22\]](#transcript-00-32-22-500) So the mind tells the flesh, no.

[\[00:32:24\]](#transcript-00-32-24-501) And when we don't do that, then the flesh will rear its.

[\[00:32:28\]](#transcript-00-32-28-502) Man, Justin, you and I have experienced the slavery to our flesh.

[\[00:32:32\]](#transcript-00-32-32-503) We know what it's like when the flesh is hungry and powerful and you feed it.

[\[00:32:36\]](#transcript-00-32-36-504) Man, it's so hard to fight back against that.

[\[00:32:38\]](#transcript-00-32-38-505) This is why Paul, in Colossians 2, says: if you're going to try and use the law or other disciplined means like asceticism to control your flesh, it's of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

[\[00:32:51\]](#transcript-00-32-51-506) Chapter 3, verse 1.

[\[00:32:52\]](#transcript-00-32-52-507) Where does he call you to look?

[\[00:32:54\]](#transcript-00-32-54-508) Christ.

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-509) Renew your mind in Christ, the power of Christ.

[\[00:32:58\]](#transcript-00-32-58-510) So, by no means are we saying, well, you know, this is your experience.

[\[00:33:01\]](#transcript-00-33-01-511) Just, you know, use the gospel, believe in grace.

[\[00:33:04\]](#transcript-00-33-04-512) no, no, no, no.

[\[00:33:05\]](#transcript-00-33-05-513) We're over here warning you about the power of your flesh.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-514) So you'll take it serious and not, you know, it's kind of like a, it's kind of like teaching your kids about the dangers of the road or the dangers of a snake or the dangers of fire.

[\[00:33:18\]](#transcript-00-33-18-515) You want them to understand it so they respect it and they appropriately behave around it, right?

[\[00:33:25\]](#transcript-00-33-25-516) Right.

[\[00:33:27\]](#transcript-00-33-27-517) A few things we could talk about.

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-518) So many.

[\[00:33:29\]](#transcript-00-33-29-519) I want to try to speak pastorally to the listeners a little bit for a moment to comfort you.

[\[00:33:35\]](#transcript-00-33-35-520) Mm-hmm.

[\[00:33:37\]](#transcript-00-33-37-521) So, for all of the believers listening to this podcast, what I'm about to say is true of you.

[\[00:33:43\]](#transcript-00-33-43-522) You don't want to sin.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-523) No.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-524) Your flesh craves it.

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-525) I understand that.

[\[00:33:47\]](#transcript-00-33-47-526) But in your inner man, you do not want to sin.

[\[00:33:50\]](#transcript-00-33-50-527) When you do sin, you lament it.

[\[00:33:54\]](#transcript-00-33-54-528) Or maybe you're bothered by the fact that you don't lament it as much as you should.

[\[00:33:59\]](#transcript-00-33-59-529) But still, the point is, you're perplexed in your soul over sin.

[\[00:34:04\]](#transcript-00-34-04-530) And sometimes, when you, if you're like me or you're like John, when you give in to sin, it really does feel as though you've been taken captive, as though you've been carried away against your will.

[\[00:34:14\]](#transcript-00-34-14-531) And I've done and said this thing, and I'm not even quite sure.

[\[00:34:18\]](#transcript-00-34-18-532) Like, it doesn't even feel like me.

[\[00:34:20\]](#transcript-00-34-20-533) I feel almost like schizophrenic.

[\[00:34:23\]](#transcript-00-34-23-534) You know, like there's part of if I said that, right?

[\[00:34:26\]](#transcript-00-34-26-535) That phrase comes out of your mouth.

[\[00:34:27\]](#transcript-00-34-27-536) Yeah.

[\[00:34:28\]](#transcript-00-34-28-537) And what we're talking about there, in one sense, is the reality of indwelling sin that Paul writes about so beautifully in this chapter.

[\[00:34:35\]](#transcript-00-34-35-538) so this is our reality and this is our condition.

[\[00:34:37\]](#transcript-00-34-37-539) We don't want it to be this way.

[\[00:34:38\]](#transcript-00-34-38-540) And so, when Paul cries out, wretched man that I am, who will deliver me?

[\[00:34:42\]](#transcript-00-34-42-541) That is the cry of every Christian.

[\[00:34:44\]](#transcript-00-34-44-542) And let me encourage you with this: that you cry that in your soul because you have become convinced by the Holy Spirit through the law, right?

[\[00:34:54\]](#transcript-00-34-54-543) That what you're doing, like that, that thing is evil and that the law is good, right?

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-544) You've come to delight in God's law, and you don't want to break it.

[\[00:35:04\]](#transcript-00-35-04-545) You cry this because you've come to love the Lord and you're grieved by the thought of offending him.

[\[00:35:09\]](#transcript-00-35-09-546) And so you know, as you read Romans 7, that's what Paul writes about is his day-by-day experience as a Christian because it's the plague of your own heart.

[\[00:35:19\]](#transcript-00-35-19-547) And so, then the encouragement, too, in thinking about the corruption of the flesh and the fact that this battle is not going away and that the flesh will not be sanctified.

[\[00:35:28\]](#transcript-00-35-28-548) There's a reason why we sing words like I'm about to quote in some of our favorite hymns.

[\[00:35:34\]](#transcript-00-35-34-549) Battle it and going away.

[\[00:35:36\]](#transcript-00-35-36-550) One day we'll be freed from it.

[\[00:35:37\]](#transcript-00-35-37-551) And so, what do we sing now?

[\[00:35:39\]](#transcript-00-35-39-552) We say, oh, that day when freed from sinning, right?

[\[00:35:43\]](#transcript-00-35-43-553) I shall see thy lovely face, clothed then in blood-washed linen, how I'll sing thy sovereign grace.

[\[00:35:51\]](#transcript-00-35-51-554) Or, dear dying lamb, thy precious blood shall never lose its power till all the ransomed church of God be saved to sin no more.

[\[00:36:02\]](#transcript-00-36-02-555) Right?

[\[00:36:02\]](#transcript-00-36-02-556) That's a future reality.

[\[00:36:04\]](#transcript-00-36-04-557) The saints have always understood this.

[\[00:36:07\]](#transcript-00-36-07-558) But in the here and now, beloved, it's a battle.

[\[00:36:10\]](#transcript-00-36-10-559) And we fight hard.

[\[00:36:12\]](#transcript-00-36-12-560) Sometimes it goes okay.

[\[00:36:14\]](#transcript-00-36-14-561) Many times it doesn't go very well.

[\[00:36:17\]](#transcript-00-36-17-562) And we're torn up over it.

[\[00:36:19\]](#transcript-00-36-19-563) And so then, what's the hope?

[\[00:36:21\]](#transcript-00-36-21-564) Well, it's what we talk about on this podcast all the time.

[\[00:36:24\]](#transcript-00-36-24-565) It's the ministry of the Holy Spirit, because pointing us to Christ, that's where I'm going, because the evil one in our own consciences, they regularly say to us, you have way too much sin, which is a true statement.

[\[00:36:37\]](#transcript-00-36-37-566) You don't have enough faith, also a true statement.

[\[00:36:41\]](#transcript-00-36-41-567) You're not repentant enough.

[\[00:36:43\]](#transcript-00-36-43-568) That's exactly right.

[\[00:36:44\]](#transcript-00-36-44-569) You don't have the joy that a child of God should have.

[\[00:36:48\]](#transcript-00-36-48-570) True.

[\[00:36:49\]](#transcript-00-36-49-571) Your hold of Christ is weak.

[\[00:36:51\]](#transcript-00-36-51-572) Right?

[\[00:36:52\]](#transcript-00-36-52-573) All of that's true.

[\[00:36:54\]](#transcript-00-36-54-574) And so then the ministry of the Holy Spirit, brother, is to take our gaze off of ourselves and fix it on Christ.

[\[00:36:59\]](#transcript-00-36-59-575) Amen.

[\[00:37:00\]](#transcript-00-37-00-576) Right.

[\[00:37:01\]](#transcript-00-37-01-577) And the Spirit of God, the irony is the Spirit of God does confirm to us that we in and of ourselves are in fact nothing, but that Christ is all in all.

[\[00:37:11\]](#transcript-00-37-11-578) Right.

[\[00:37:12\]](#transcript-00-37-12-579) And it's not, you know, as many have said before, and as we've said on the show, it's not our hold of Jesus that saves us, it's Jesus.

[\[00:37:19\]](#transcript-00-37-19-580) It's not our joy in Christ that saves us, it's Christ.

[\[00:37:22\]](#transcript-00-37-22-581) It's not even our faith, right?

[\[00:37:23\]](#transcript-00-37-23-582) Faith is an instrument.

[\[00:37:25\]](#transcript-00-37-25-583) Amen.

[\[00:37:25\]](#transcript-00-37-25-584) It's the blood and righteousness of Christ.

[\[00:37:28\]](#transcript-00-37-28-585) Amen.

[\[00:37:29\]](#transcript-00-37-29-586) And so we look to him.

[\[00:37:31\]](#transcript-00-37-31-587) Yeah.

[\[00:37:31\]](#transcript-00-37-31-588) Listen, there are times, and I'll encourage everybody: if you don't think you can get trapped in sin.

[\[00:37:36\]](#transcript-00-37-36-589) Man, James even says you can get trapped in sin to the point where you might even die from it.

[\[00:37:41\]](#transcript-00-37-41-590) This is an interesting passage.

[\[00:37:43\]](#transcript-00-37-43-591) I read this on Sunday.

[\[00:37:44\]](#transcript-00-37-44-592) I'll read it now, and then I'm going to turn to something hopeful, and then we'll go to SR, JP.

[\[00:37:48\]](#transcript-00-37-48-593) Perfect.

[\[00:37:49\]](#transcript-00-37-49-594) 1 Timothy 5:20 says this: As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all so that the rest may stand in fear.

[\[00:37:57\]](#transcript-00-37-57-595) This is later, and you know, this is another Paul.

[\[00:38:00\]](#transcript-00-38-00-596) Paul isn't saying they're not a believer.

[\[00:38:02\]](#transcript-00-38-02-597) He's like, hey, look, there are people who finally give in to the battle.

[\[00:38:05\]](#transcript-00-38-05-598) You need to rebuke them, meaning, like, hey, don't do that.

[\[00:38:08\]](#transcript-00-38-08-599) But then he says things that are so precious.

[\[00:38:11\]](#transcript-00-38-11-600) And so I'm just going to just say this.

[\[00:38:15\]](#transcript-00-38-15-601) Read this.

[\[00:38:16\]](#transcript-00-38-16-602) This is Titus.

[\[00:38:16\]](#transcript-00-38-16-603) I'm gonna read a couple of passages for you.

[\[00:38:19\]](#transcript-00-38-19-604) This is Titus 3:4.

[\[00:38:20\]](#transcript-00-38-20-605) It says, But when the goodness and loving kindness of our God appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration, the renewal of the

[\[00:38:30\]](#transcript-00-38-30-606) Holy Spirit, whom he poured out to us richly through Jesus Christ, so that being justified by grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[\[00:38:40\]](#transcript-00-38-40-607) This saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works.

[\[00:38:48\]](#transcript-00-38-48-608) These things are excellent and profitable for people.

[\[00:38:52\]](#transcript-00-38-52-609) Listen, Paul counteracts the fight, the war, the good works.

[\[00:38:56\]](#transcript-00-38-56-610) He always points us to the hope of Christ.

[\[00:39:00\]](#transcript-00-39-00-611) He always points us to what God did on our behalf.

[\[00:39:04\]](#transcript-00-39-04-612) And so we're gazing constantly at what a loving God has done, and because of that, we go, Okay, I can keep, I can keep fighting.

[\[00:39:12\]](#transcript-00-39-12-613) Because he didn't look at my fight and say, Okay, Jon, you're fighting, I'll give it to you.

[\[00:39:17\]](#transcript-00-39-17-614) No, he gave it to me and then says, Hey, Jon, go fight.

[\[00:39:21\]](#transcript-00-39-21-615) You're good.

[\[00:39:22\]](#transcript-00-39-22-616) I love you.

[\[00:39:23\]](#transcript-00-39-23-617) You've got this because I live in you.

[\[00:39:25\]](#transcript-00-39-25-618) And if you keep reminding yourself, you know, what is, I'll just quote it again, 2 Peter 1:9.

[\[00:39:30\]](#transcript-00-39-30-619) You've forgotten.

[\[00:39:31\]](#transcript-00-39-31-620) you've been cleansed from your former sins, is why you forgot you stopped fighting.

[\[00:39:35\]](#transcript-00-39-35-621) Yeah.

[\[00:39:35\]](#transcript-00-39-35-622) The Christian life is the given life, man.

[\[00:39:37\]](#transcript-00-39-37-623) That's right.

[\[00:39:38\]](#transcript-00-39-38-624) Yeah, he gives us everything, and then he says, Now go and live and fight.

[\[00:39:42\]](#transcript-00-39-42-625) Yeah.

[\[00:39:42\]](#transcript-00-39-42-626) And that's kind of a nice dovetail into what we'll be talking about on the regular show next week.

[\[00:39:47\]](#transcript-00-39-47-627) That's right.

[\[00:39:48\]](#transcript-00-39-48-628) We're now going to pivot, though, to our second podcast that we record each week called Semper Reformanda.

[\[00:39:54\]](#transcript-00-39-54-629) Semper Reformanda is just the name of kind of a related ministry of Theocast for our members, people who have partnered with Theocast financially.

[\[00:40:01\]](#transcript-00-40-01-630) And what Semper Reformanda gives you access to is not only this additional podcast each week, but also additional teaching content, Theocast U, and some other resources that we make available to our members, as well as an app where

[\[00:40:13\]](#transcript-00-40-13-631) you can interact with other people who are engaging with and wrestling with the same things that you are.

[\[00:40:18\]](#transcript-00-40-18-632) And that app is an encouraging place to be.

[\[00:40:21\]](#transcript-00-40-21-633) A lot of people crossed over 700 people in there.

[\[00:40:24\]](#transcript-00-40-24-634) Yeah, praise the Lord.

[\[00:40:25\]](#transcript-00-40-25-635) And a lot of good, like QA going on in there, people helping each other, sending resources to one another, all that good stuff happens there.

[\[00:40:33\]](#transcript-00-40-33-636) So, if you're interested in learning more about how you could partner with Theocast or being a Semper Reformanda member, head over to theocast.org.

[\[00:40:39\]](#transcript-00-40-39-637) You can find all that information there.

[\[00:40:41\]](#transcript-00-40-41-638) Jon and I are going to go have this additional conversation where we talk maybe a little bit more transparently or pastorally or in more theological depth.

[\[00:40:48\]](#transcript-00-40-48-639) It just depends week to week.

[\[00:40:50\]](#transcript-00-40-50-640) Today, I wouldn't mind talking a little bit about what I assume as a preacher, Jon, and what, like in light of Romans 7, how that affects us as preachers and pastors, in terms of our posture and our tone,

[\[00:41:03\]](#transcript-00-41-03-641) and some of the things that exist out there that maybe sound and feel different from where that comes from.

[\[00:41:08\]](#transcript-00-41-08-642) Might be a good conversation.

[\[00:41:09\]](#transcript-00-41-09-643) I love it.

[\[00:41:09\]](#transcript-00-41-09-644) So, we're going to head that direction and have that conversation.

[\[00:41:12\]](#transcript-00-41-12-645) Hopefully many of you will join us over there.

[\[00:41:13\]](#transcript-00-41-13-646) If not, we'll talk with you on the regular pod again next week.

[\[00:41:16\]](#transcript-00-41-16-647) Grace and peace to you.

---

### The Misplaced Zeal of Cultural Transformation

*Published: June 7, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-misplaced-zeal-of-cultural-transformation*
*Tags: Christian Nationalism, Eschatology, Return of Christ, Theonomy*

In today’s episode, Jon and Justin have another conversation related to end-times theology. This time, the guys consider the perspective that the church is to be ushering in a golden age prior to Christ’s return--that through the faithfulness of the church, things will continue to get better and better. Is this what the Bible teaches? How does this perspective affect the method and messaging of the church?

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin discuss whether movements like Christian Reconstructionism and Christian Nationalism are related to prosperity theology. And what about persecution? Is it a good thing? Should we pray for it and seek it out?  
  
Resources:  
  
[Our episode on Two Kingdoms w/ David VanDrunen](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/two-kingdoms-with-david-vandrunen/)  
  
[Our episode on the Reformed Response to Theonomy](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/a-reformed-response-to-theonomy/)  
  
https://youtu.be/rFJtYEG6x0k

---

### Leaving Behind the End Times

*Published: May 31, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/leaving-behind-the-end-times*
*Tags: Eschatology, Judgement, Return of Christ*

In today’s episode, Jon and Justin talk about the end times. For many in the church, the conversation about last things--and the return of Christ--has been steeped in fear. The return of the Savior is presented as a frightful thing for the believer, and this is supposed to motivate us to action. The New Testament presentation is different. The return of Christ is meant to both give the believer hope and motivate us to action now.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue the conversation on last things by considering heavenly reward and a judgment according to works. The guys also touch on the “other-worldliness” of confessionalism.  
  
https://youtu.be/vbOmn3YmXwk

---

### A Pastoral Response to Theonomy

*Published: May 24, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/a-pastoral-response-to-theonomy*
*Tags: Theonomy*

In the second of two episodes on theonomy, Jon and Justin consider some of the practical fallout of theonomy: the gospel tends to be obscured, the mission of the church is confused, and burdens are placed on the saints that we were never meant to bear. How should we respond pastorally to these concerns and the assertions of theonomy?

Note: Semper Reformanda is included in today’s episode.  
  
Resources:  
  
[1689 Baptist Perspective: Confessionalism and Theonomy](https://www.9marks.org/article/a-1689-baptist-perspective-confessionalism-and-theonomy/)  
  
[Why is Theonomy Unbiblical?](https://pastortomhicks.com/2020/11/17/why-is-theonomy-unbiblical/)  
  
[Is the Law Relevant Today? ](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/is-the-law-relevant-today/)  
  
[Covenant Theology: Introduction & Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCfzmujnlHo&list=PL5OjtM2rVrI30Net4GA-ZeC4BJd65UA4-&ab%5Fchannel=Theocast-RestinChrist)  
  
https://youtu.be/YeLPRW6-0vk

---

### A Reformed Response to Theonomy

*Published: May 17, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/a-reformed-response-to-theonomy*
*Tags: Theonomy*

In the first of two episodes on theonomy, Jon and Justin seek to generally define theonomy and then respond to it theologically. The guys consider a confessional understanding of the threefold division of the law, the distinction between moral and positive law, and 1689 Federalism as safeguards against theonomy.

Note: Semper Reformanda is included in today’s episode.  
  
Resources:  
  
[1689 Baptist Perspective: Confessionalism and Theonomy](https://www.9marks.org/article/a-1689-baptist-perspective-confessionalism-and-theonomy/)  
  
[Why is Theonomy Unbiblical?](https://pastortomhicks.com/2020/11/17/why-is-theonomy-unbiblical/)  
  
[Is the Law Relevant Today? ](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/is-the-law-relevant-today/)  
  
[Covenant Theology: Introduction & Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCfzmujnlHo&list=PL5OjtM2rVrI30Net4GA-ZeC4BJd65UA4-&ab%5Fchannel=Theocast-RestinChrist)  
  
https://youtu.be/tiOsq1DmnNQ

---

### Who Does the Gospel Offend?

*Published: May 10, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/who-does-the-gospel-offend*
*Tags: Gospel, self righteousness*

At multiple points, Paul writes that he is not ashamed of the gospel. Why did he need to write that? What is it about the gospel that could bring shame on someone who preaches it--or believes it? The gospel offends us in our self-righteousness. That’s clear. It also offends us in our licentiousness. The truth of our union with Christ and liberation from sin’s dominion can fly in the face of the desires of our flesh. In all of this, the Lord has us and will complete the good work he has begun in us! Jon and Justin talk about all of this on today’s episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin consider how we will bear reproach for the sake of Christ and the gospel. This is the normative experience of Christians.

https://youtu.be/NCk611ASwUA

---

### Why God Rejects Your Righteousness (Romans 5:12-21)

*Published: May 3, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-god-rejects-your-righteousness-romans-5-12-21*
*Tags: Righteousness, self righteousness*

In today’s episode, Jon and Justin consider how our own righteousness only leads to death. In Romans 5:12-21, Paul makes it clear that we have all been counted with Adam’s guilt--and that the only hope we have is that we would be counted with Christ’s righteousness. By faith, Jesus becomes our representative. This is great news! We have gained more in Jesus than we lost in Adam. This is the message of the entire Bible.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin discuss the imputed righteousness of Christ and what that means for our good works. How do imputed righteousness and our obedience go together?  
  
https://youtu.be/JPRbwa0BYkk

---

### The Function of Men and Women in the Church and in the Home (Part 2)

*Published: April 26, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-function-of-men-and-women-in-the-church-and-in-the-home-part-2*
*Tags: Roles of Men and Women in the Church, Roles of Men and Women in the Home*

In today’s episode, Jon and Justin continue a lengthy conversation about men and women--and how we relate to one another in the home and in the church. There has been a lot of cultural baggage that has influenced the church through history on these matters. There has been a lot of pain caused and damage done. This conversation is not comprehensive or exhaustive. We thank you for listening with charity and kindness, as we all seek to grow in our understanding.

NOTE: There is no Semper Reformanda this week due to the nature of the conversation.  
  
Resources:  
  
Simply Trinity by Matthew Barrett  
  
[Justin’s sermon on Ephesians 5:22-6:9](https://covbap.org/sermons/out-of-reverence-for-christ-ephesians-522-69/)  
  
https://youtu.be/RCXbPmD9Bow

---

### The Function of Men and Women in the Church and in the Home (Part 1)

*Published: April 19, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-function-of-men-and-women-in-the-church-and-in-the-home-part-1*
*Tags: Roles of Men and Women in the Church, Roles of Men and Women in the Home*

In today’s episode, Jon and Justin begin a lengthy conversation about men and women--and how we relate to one another in the home and in the church. There has been a lot of cultural baggage that has influenced the church through history on these matters. There has been a lot of pain caused and damage done. This conversation is not comprehensive or exhaustive. We thank you for listening with charity and kindness, as we all seek to grow in our understanding.

NOTE: There is no Semper Reformanda this week due to the nature of the conversation.  
  
Resources:  
  
Simply Trinity by Matthew Barrett  
  
[Justin’s sermon on Ephesians 5:22-6:9](https://covbap.org/sermons/out-of-reverence-for-christ-ephesians-522-69/)  
  
https://youtu.be/xqDKQkqTcU8

---

### From Death to Comfort (Ezekiel 36-37)

*Published: April 12, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/from-death-to-comfort-ezekiel-36-37*
*Tags: preservation of the saints, Resting in Christ, salvation, Sovereignty of God*

In today’s episode, Jon and Justin talk about the fact that it is God who saves sinners--meaning, he does it all. From the beginning to the very end, salvation is a work of God. He brings us all the way home. To have this conversation, the guys consider Ezekiel 36 and 37\. The Lord says some strong things about our condition and about his work. May our souls be comforted in him.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about the reality of suffering and weakness in this life--and how the thing that is most helpful to us is getting glimpses of God’s eternal plan.  
  
https://youtu.be/Fnqk0IM\_ClY

---

### Christian, There Will Be Sin (w/ Ken Jones)

*Published: April 5, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/christian-there-will-be-sin-w-ken-jones*
*Tags: Sanctification, Sin*

For today’s episode, Jon and Justin are joined by Ken Jones (pastor of Glendale Baptist Church and host of Saints and Sinners Unplugged). The guys talk about the fact that Christians will sin--perhaps very badly for a really long time. What is the normal Christian experience? If we have been united to Christ and justified in him, how should we think about our battle against the corruption of our flesh? How can is it the church can be a safe place for sinners?Semper Reformanda is included in today’s episode for free!  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon, Justin, and Ken speak to the fact that Christians struggle with all kinds of sins--even sins related to our sexuality and gender. Then, the guys have a very good conversation about church discipline and when it is that a Christian should question his/her salvation.  
  
Ken’s Show - Saints and Sinners Unplugged

* [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@saintssinnersunplugged-ym8xp/featured)
* [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/saints-and-sinners-unplugged/id1173039301)
* [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/210DJsmeSm7MNlafp58L2P)
https://youtu.be/QF3Yf9bE6z8

---

### Revivalism (w/ Ken Jones)

*Published: March 29, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/revivalism-w-ken-jones*
*Tags: Pietism, Revivalism*

For today’s episode, Jon and Justin are joined by Ken Jones (pastor of Glendale Baptist Church and host of Saints and Sinners Unplugged). The guys talk about revivalism. There are two distinct traditions within American Protestantism: one is the confessional/ordinary means of grace tradition; the other pietistic and revivalistic. What are the differences between the two? What about the First Great Awakening? What is it that characterizes any genuine movement of God?

Semper Reformanda is included in today’s episode for free!

Semper Reformanda: Jon, Justin, and Ken answer the question, “What do we make of the Puritans?” And then, the guys go on do discuss the Marrow Controversy and how it is applicable to today.

Ken’s Show - Saints and Sinners Unplugged

* [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@saintssinnersunplugged-ym8xp/featured)
* [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/saints-and-sinners-unplugged/id1173039301)
* [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/210DJsmeSm7MNlafp58L2P)
 https://youtu.be/WTg9qZsidqM

---

### Where's Jesus in Our Preaching? (w/ Ken Jones)

*Published: March 22, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/wheres-jesus-in-our-preaching-w-ken-jones*
*Tags: Christ Centered Preaching, preaching*

For today’s episode, Jon and Justin are joined by Ken Jones (pastor of Glendale Baptist Church and host of Saints and Sinners Unplugged). The guys talk about what it is to preach Christ from all of Scripture--and how there are many approaches to preaching that claim the label “Christ-centered” but are not really heralding the person and work of Jesus to sinners. And what about application in preaching? How should we think about that?Semper Reformanda: Jon, Justin, and Ken talk about the preachers and theologians who have most impacted them and then offer some thoughts on commentaries for preachers and laypersons.  
  
Ken’s Show - Saints and Sinners Unplugged

* [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@saintssinnersunplugged-ym8xp/featured)
* [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/saints-and-sinners-unplugged/id1173039301)
* [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/210DJsmeSm7MNlafp58L2P)
https://youtu.be/3ejCv8VU2-g

---

### Pitfalls for the Reformed

*Published: March 15, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/pitfalls-for-the-reformed*
*Tags: Pietism, Revivalism*

In today's episode, Jon and Justin reflect on the world of conservative reformed Christianity. Taking a dive into dead orthodoxy on one side to pietism and revivalism on the other, the guys ask: how did we get here? What is God expecting? Can we identify these pitfalls in our own lives? This episode is not about just pointing out faults but being able to recognize harmful habits we've fallen into and moving past them.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin discuss the purpose of the Christian life and more personal aspects of their understanding on recent events in the reformed world.  
  
[Join the SR community here!](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/sr/)  
  
https://youtu.be/DFLBlCcVD\_o

---

### What's It Like to Leave Emotionalism? (w/ Chris Gordon)

*Published: March 8, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/whats-it-like-to-leave-emotionalism-w-chris-gordon*
*Tags: Emotionalism, Revivalism*

While on the west coast, Jon and Justin were invited by Chris Gordon (host of Abounding Grace Radio and pastor of Escondido United Reformed Church) to do some recording. This episode is the third portion of that conversation. The guys talk about what it’s like for an evangelical to walk into a confessional church. What is hard? What is confusing? Yet what is it that’s so attractive? What are pastoral concerns for those making the transition out of emotionalism?

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about differences between emotionalism and confessionalism--when it comes to corporate worship. In short, we come to receive from the Lord. What does that mean? What does that look like?  
  
[Part 1 of this conversation](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/give-me-jesus-not-self-improvement-w-chris-gordon/)  
  
[Part 2 of this conversation](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/christianizing-the-nations-w-chris-gordon/)  
  
https://youtu.be/Y6aoaw1P4NA

---

### Resting in Jesus Christ

*Published: March 1, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/resting-in-jesus-christ*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: Resting in Christ*

The objective in this episode is simple: to talk about the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and the rest he provides to sinners. In order to do that, Jon and Justin consider the law, the judgement seat, and the gospel--which is the power of God for salvation to all who believe. We ought not be afraid of wrath or condemnation. We ought not be afraid to go to Jesus in our time of need. He really does bid us to come to him for rest.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin consider why many people actually want their pastors to preach law and about the “foolishness” of the gospel.  
  
Resources:  
[Justin's sermons in Romans](https://covbap.org/romans-christ-our-only-righteousness/)  
  
https://youtu.be/jWlVilCMCHU 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:04\]](#transcript-00-00-04-1) Hi, this is Jon, and today on Theocast, Justin and I have one ambition, and that is to convince you that Christ is sufficient.

[\[00:00:14\]](#transcript-00-00-14-2) And we're going to talk about the law, and we're going to talk about the power of the gospel.

[\[00:00:18\]](#transcript-00-00-18-3) And our hope and our prayer is at the end, you will truly rest in Christ and trust His promises.

[\[00:00:25\]](#transcript-00-00-25-4) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:26\]](#transcript-00-00-26-5) If you'd like to help support Theocast, you can do that by leaving us a review on iTunes and subscribing on your favorite podcast app.

[\[00:00:34\]](#transcript-00-00-34-6) You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

[\[00:00:37\]](#transcript-00-00-37-7) Plus, we have a Facebook group if you'd like to join the conversation there.

[\[00:00:41\]](#transcript-00-00-41-8) Thanks for listening.

[\[00:00:53\]](#transcript-00-00-53-9) Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ, conversations about the Christian life from a reformed, pastoral, and covenantal perspective.

[\[00:01:02\]](#transcript-00-01-02-10) If you're wondering what's going to happen today on the episode, I'll tell you this: we're going to clarify the gospel and we're going to reclaim the purpose of the kingdom.

[\[00:01:09\]](#transcript-00-01-09-11) So stay tuned for that.

[\[00:01:10\]](#transcript-00-01-10-12) Your hosts are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:01:15\]](#transcript-00-01-15-13) And I'm Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:01:16\]](#transcript-00-01-16-14) I'm the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:01:20\]](#transcript-00-01-20-15) And today is going to be unique and not unique at the same time.

[\[00:01:24\]](#transcript-00-01-24-16) Justin, explain what I mean by that.

[\[00:01:27\]](#transcript-00-01-27-17) Well, hello to you, John.

[\[00:01:28\]](#transcript-00-01-28-18) Happy to explain, man.

[\[00:01:30\]](#transcript-00-01-30-19) Not unique in that we're going to talk about resting in Jesus Christ today, which is something that we talk about more or less week over week over week.

[\[00:01:40\]](#transcript-00-01-40-20) We might come at it from different angles.

[\[00:01:41\]](#transcript-00-01-41-21) We might start from a different place, but we are always having conversations

[\[00:01:46\]](#transcript-00-01-46-22) viewed through the lens of Christ for us and everything that He is for us and how He is our only hope and stay and He is our comfort and our peace.

[\[00:01:55\]](#transcript-00-01-55-23) Unique in that we are only going to talk about resting in Christ today.

[\[00:02:00\]](#transcript-00-02-00-24) We want to pointedly discuss it.

[\[00:02:02\]](#transcript-00-02-02-25) And even though we talk about these things on a regular basis, every now and then John and I want to just stop, take a moment.

[\[00:02:09\]](#transcript-00-02-09-26) I want to say something funny, like, you know, be still, put Psalm 46:10 out of context.

[\[00:02:16\]](#transcript-00-02-16-27) Just take a moment to have this conversation directly and pointedly, because we need it for our own souls, because we're human beings, we're pastors, we're preachers of God's word, we have our own frailties, we're prone to lose sight

[\[00:02:31\]](#transcript-00-02-31-28) of Christ for us because everything around us often preaches a different word, and we think that if it's profitable to us, it's probably going to be profitable to you.

[\[00:02:40\]](#transcript-00-02-40-29) And so, this is an episode that we hope, I think it's fine for us to say this, that you can come back to regardless of what season of life you're in and find some balm and comfort and encouragement.

[\[00:02:50\]](#transcript-00-02-50-30) Last thing I'll say is that even though we talk about resting in Christ a lot, don't tune this episode out.

[\[00:02:56\]](#transcript-00-02-56-31) Because we're living, breathing human beings, like I just described, that's going to mean that John and I might articulate things differently in this season of our lives than we did a year or two ago.

[\[00:03:05\]](#transcript-00-03-05-32) There are going to be certain things that are going to be more fresh in our minds and hearts because of things we've experienced, because of things we're learning, things that the Lord's teaching us, things that we're preaching.

[\[00:03:14\]](#transcript-00-03-14-33) And so we trust that this will be a different presentation of resting in Christ than we've ever done before, though we will be communicating the great truths, the same great truths, I should say.

[\[00:03:25\]](#transcript-00-03-25-34) So, with all of that, by way of introduction, John, I'm going to throw it over to you to get us off and running.

[\[00:03:29\]](#transcript-00-03-29-35) And John and I don't have script here.

[\[00:03:31\]](#transcript-00-03-31-36) We're just going to dialogue the two of us as brothers in Christ, fellow pastors, and see where this leads.

[\[00:03:37\]](#transcript-00-03-37-37) So, recently, my wife and I and our family moved into a new house.

[\[00:03:41\]](#transcript-00-03-41-38) and in the meantime, I picked up a bug on the day we were supposed to move.

[\[00:03:45\]](#transcript-00-03-45-39) And so we're, you know, I don't know, on the latter part of the day, and it's eight o'clock.

[\[00:03:51\]](#transcript-00-03-51-40) I'm setting up the kids' beds, and I am mentally and physically and emotionally exhausted.

[\[00:03:57\]](#transcript-00-03-57-41) And all I could think about was, and this sounds funny, is the cold sheets of my bed that wasn't even put together yet.

[\[00:04:04\]](#transcript-00-04-04-42) That's all I could think about was that moment, and there's a, I don't know how you feel about like when I travel, I just, there's something about your own bed, right?

[\[00:04:13\]](#transcript-00-04-13-43) Oh, yeah.

[\[00:04:14\]](#transcript-00-04-14-44) And so I kept thinking about I think most people it that way.

[\[00:04:17\]](#transcript-00-04-17-45) I kept thinking about that moment where I was going to feel safe and I was going to feel relaxed and I was just going to be able to let go and just like, okay, the labor is done.

[\[00:04:26\]](#transcript-00-04-26-46) And this life is a labor.

[\[00:04:29\]](#transcript-00-04-29-47) We are called to labor, we are fighting against the flesh.

[\[00:04:32\]](#transcript-00-04-32-48) We're waging war against principalities, and it's exhausting.

[\[00:04:37\]](#transcript-00-04-37-49) And what I love about Christ and his wonderful message to us through all of scripture is that he knows we need that?

[\[00:04:47\]](#transcript-00-04-47-50) And so he says, Come to me.

[\[00:04:49\]](#transcript-00-04-49-51) And I will be that moment of your exhaustion and your frailty, you're sick, you're beat up.

[\[00:04:57\]](#transcript-00-04-57-52) He goes, I'm going to be that refreshment where you can let go of everything and relax and know I have you.

[\[00:05:06\]](#transcript-00-05-06-53) You're safe.

[\[00:05:06\]](#transcript-00-05-06-54) I'm going to restore you.

[\[00:05:08\]](#transcript-00-05-08-55) I'm going to replenish you.

[\[00:05:10\]](#transcript-00-05-10-56) I'm going to feed you.

[\[00:05:10\]](#transcript-00-05-10-57) I'm going to strengthen you.

[\[00:05:12\]](#transcript-00-05-12-58) And that's the way God describes Himself, right?

[\[00:05:15\]](#transcript-00-05-15-59) Christ says that I am the place where you are going to be cared for.

[\[00:05:19\]](#transcript-00-05-19-60) Come to me, all who are weary, and I will give you rest.

[\[00:05:22\]](#transcript-00-05-22-61) And sometimes, Justin, in the past, we have maybe misinterpreted this.

[\[00:05:28\]](#transcript-00-05-28-62) If you come from a very performance-based background and legalistic background, that rest sounds like giving up, and it's not.

[\[00:05:35\]](#transcript-00-05-35-63) Rest is rejuvenation.

[\[00:05:37\]](#transcript-00-05-37-64) Rest is healing.

[\[00:05:38\]](#transcript-00-05-38-65) Rest is where we find strength, is where God restores us.

[\[00:05:42\]](#transcript-00-05-42-66) And so the restful part of Christ is the good news of the gospel.

[\[00:05:46\]](#transcript-00-05-46-67) So we come to Jesus because he relieves us of our sins.

[\[00:05:50\]](#transcript-00-05-50-68) We come to Jesus because he reminds us of where our righteousness is.

[\[00:05:54\]](#transcript-00-05-54-69) We come to Jesus because he reminds us of a steadfast love.

[\[00:05:58\]](#transcript-00-05-58-70) Psalm 63, when David says, your steadfast love is better than life.

[\[00:06:04\]](#transcript-00-06-04-71) Oh, it's so good, right?

[\[00:06:06\]](#transcript-00-06-06-72) That's David saying, I rest in you.

[\[00:06:09\]](#transcript-00-06-09-73) Yeah.

[\[00:06:09\]](#transcript-00-06-09-74) I will worship you because your love for me is more important than life itself.

[\[00:06:15\]](#transcript-00-06-15-75) Because in you I have taken refuge.

[\[00:06:17\]](#transcript-00-06-17-76) That's right.

[\[00:06:18\]](#transcript-00-06-18-77) So, part of that for me, I remember that physical part of it.

[\[00:06:22\]](#transcript-00-06-22-78) And I had a flash for a moment going, oh, Sunday, because this was Friday.

[\[00:06:26\]](#transcript-00-06-26-79) I'm like, oh, Sunday's coming, and I will rest.

[\[00:06:29\]](#transcript-00-06-29-80) I will be able to relax because I'm going to be around the saints, and the saints are going to hold me, they're going to sing to me, they're going to speak truth to me.

[\[00:06:37\]](#transcript-00-06-37-81) The word of God's going to be proclaimed to me.

[\[00:06:39\]](#transcript-00-06-39-82) I'm going to be reminded of his love, he's going to restore me.

[\[00:06:42\]](#transcript-00-06-42-83) And this is really what we're hoping this podcast is for you: that we're not, this is not a let go and let God.

[\[00:06:48\]](#transcript-00-06-48-84) This isn't a quitting moment.

[\[00:06:50\]](#transcript-00-06-50-85) It is a quitting moment on your own righteousness.

[\[00:06:52\]](#transcript-00-06-52-86) Well, yeah, it is you giving up and trying to earn anything.

[\[00:06:55\]](#transcript-00-06-55-87) That's right.

[\[00:06:56\]](#transcript-00-06-56-88) But the joy of Christ is that in the midst of turmoil, in a sinful body, in a sinful world, we can have hope and we could be rejuvenated and we find ourselves safe resting in the sufficiency and union

[\[00:07:11\]](#transcript-00-07-11-89) of Christ, which we'll explain what that is for the rest of the podcast.

[\[00:07:14\]](#transcript-00-07-14-90) So, as an introduction, that's really where we're wanting to go today.

[\[00:07:18\]](#transcript-00-07-18-91) Yeah, I may talk for a few minutes, John, and I'm pretty hard to derail, so you can interject as much as you want.

[\[00:07:25\]](#transcript-00-07-25-92) I got my piece in.

[\[00:07:26\]](#transcript-00-07-26-93) You're good.

[\[00:07:26\]](#transcript-00-07-26-94) Go.

[\[00:07:26\]](#transcript-00-07-26-95) Okay.

[\[00:07:28\]](#transcript-00-07-28-96) So we do talk a lot on here about the sufficiency of Christ, meaning that he is enough to save us.

[\[00:07:36\]](#transcript-00-07-36-97) So, when we say that Christ is enough, we don't mean anything sappy or sentimental by that.

[\[00:07:40\]](#transcript-00-07-40-98) This is not a Jerry Maguire, like, you know, he completes us kind of thing.

[\[00:07:44\]](#transcript-00-07-44-99) This is an objective fact that he is enough.

[\[00:07:48\]](#transcript-00-07-48-100) He is sufficient.

[\[00:07:49\]](#transcript-00-07-49-101) He is able and mighty to save even us, miserable offenders as we are, weak as we are, as prone to wander as we are, he's got this.

[\[00:07:58\]](#transcript-00-07-58-102) So, if you hear us say Christ's enough, he's sufficient.

[\[00:08:01\]](#transcript-00-08-01-103) That's what we mean.

[\[00:08:02\]](#transcript-00-08-02-104) I'm going to start, though.

[\[00:08:03\]](#transcript-00-08-03-105) This may sound counterintuitive.

[\[00:08:05\]](#transcript-00-08-05-106) I'm trying to do some diagnostics here in what I'm about to say, because I think a lot of people, when they tune into a podcast like this, and they're wanting to hear about resting in Jesus, nobody disagrees with

[\[00:08:17\]](#transcript-00-08-17-107) any of the wonderful things that we're going to say about Christ, yet might turn the podcast off and not fully understand why it is that they doubt the way they do, not fully understand why they struggle as they

[\[00:08:28\]](#transcript-00-08-28-108) do to have assurance and have peace.

[\[00:08:31\]](#transcript-00-08-31-109) And what I'm about to say is not going to give every answer to that, but I hope it's clarifying and can diagnose a little bit of our problem that we often have in the church.

[\[00:08:39\]](#transcript-00-08-39-110) And then, obviously, what John and I are hoping to do is offer a solution and pull us over onto something that is the solid rock.

[\[00:08:46\]](#transcript-00-08-46-111) I want to begin by talking about the law, John.

[\[00:08:48\]](#transcript-00-08-48-112) I know that sounds insane.

[\[00:08:50\]](#transcript-00-08-50-113) We're talking about resting.

[\[00:08:51\]](#transcript-00-08-51-114) We're talking about comfort.

[\[00:08:52\]](#transcript-00-08-52-115) We're talking about peace.

[\[00:08:53\]](#transcript-00-08-53-116) And it's, bro, you're going to bring out the law?

[\[00:08:55\]](#transcript-00-08-55-117) It's like, yes, I am.

[\[00:08:56\]](#transcript-00-08-56-118) That's right.

[\[00:08:57\]](#transcript-00-08-57-119) Because here's where we must begin: we need to understand the law and its purpose after the fall.

[\[00:09:07\]](#transcript-00-09-07-120) If we don't understand the purpose of the law after the fall, we are going to be prone to make all kinds of mistakes, right?

[\[00:09:13\]](#transcript-00-09-13-121) So, the law, John, this is not a trick question.

[\[00:09:16\]](#transcript-00-09-16-122) After the fall, was the law given to justify us?

[\[00:09:19\]](#transcript-00-09-19-123) I'm going to say no.

[\[00:09:21\]](#transcript-00-09-21-124) Yes, you're tracking with me.

[\[00:09:23\]](#transcript-00-09-23-125) We're of one mind here.

[\[00:09:25\]](#transcript-00-09-25-126) The law, after the fall, was not given to justify, it was given actually to condemn and to show us how corrupt we are, and therefore to show us the hell that quite literally is opened wide to swallow us.

[\[00:09:38\]](#transcript-00-09-38-127) And so, what I mean is, it's given, the law is after the fall, in its first and greatest use.

[\[00:09:44\]](#transcript-00-09-44-128) The law is given to bring us to the end of ourselves when it comes to righteousness, right?

[\[00:09:49\]](#transcript-00-09-49-129) So, the only appropriate response to that condemnation of the law is what?

[\[00:09:53\]](#transcript-00-09-53-130) It's to run to Jesus Christ in faith.

[\[00:09:56\]](#transcript-00-09-56-131) It's to take refuge in Christ.

[\[00:09:58\]](#transcript-00-09-58-132) Now, I would say that one of our problems, John, in the evangelical church, and I use that term loosely and broadly, right?

[\[00:10:07\]](#transcript-00-10-07-133) In the West, is that we are so prone to go back to the law for righteousness in some degree, in some form or fashion, at some level.

[\[00:10:17\]](#transcript-00-10-17-134) And I would say that it's evidence of our blindness that we would ever seek any part of our salvation in the very thing that condemns us.

[\[00:10:25\]](#transcript-00-10-25-135) And I would say this too: if we agree with God and the standard of His law, which is what?

[\[00:10:30\]](#transcript-00-10-30-136) It's perfection, it's perpetual, personal, perfect obedience.

[\[00:10:34\]](#transcript-00-10-34-137) If we agree with God in the standard of his law, then all we do by going to the law for even the smallest piece of our standing before him, all we do is just heap law upon law upon

[\[00:10:45\]](#transcript-00-10-45-138) law upon law on our conscience.

[\[00:10:48\]](#transcript-00-10-48-139) And here's where I want to go with this: no wonder we lack assurance, and no wonder we struggle.

[\[00:10:56\]](#transcript-00-10-56-140) Like you were referencing Matthew 11, when Jesus says, Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I'll give you rest.

[\[00:11:06\]](#transcript-00-11-06-141) Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I'm gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

[\[00:11:12\]](#transcript-00-11-12-142) For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

[\[00:11:15\]](#transcript-00-11-15-143) We struggle with that because deep down we wrestle with so many things because the ways that we have been taught, the Christian faith.

[\[00:11:26\]](#transcript-00-11-26-144) The law and the gospel have been so collapsed that Jesus often is presented as though he's like the master of the bait and switch.

[\[00:11:34\]](#transcript-00-11-34-145) Like he's gentle, he's compassionate on the front end, he's outward facing toward unbelievers.

[\[00:11:39\]](#transcript-00-11-39-146) Come to me.

[\[00:11:40\]](#transcript-00-11-40-147) Come to me for rest.

[\[00:11:41\]](#transcript-00-11-41-148) But then, once you're in him, once you've trusted him, it's all right.

[\[00:11:44\]](#transcript-00-11-44-149) Now I'm going to give you more to do.

[\[00:11:46\]](#transcript-00-11-46-150) Now I'm really going to put you to work because now you got to prove that you're legit.

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-151) And it cripples, which is the opposite of what he says: my yogurt is easy, my burden is light.

[\[00:11:54\]](#transcript-00-11-54-152) No, brother, I'm not trying to be disrespectful or irreverent, but it's as though we think he says, Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I'll put you on probation and I'll give you more to

[\[00:12:03\]](#transcript-00-12-03-153) do.

[\[00:12:04\]](#transcript-00-12-04-154) By the way, there's an episode on that.

[\[00:12:05\]](#transcript-00-12-05-155) Go listen to it.

[\[00:12:05\]](#transcript-00-12-05-156) Christian, you're not on probation.

[\[00:12:07\]](#transcript-00-12-07-157) Yeah, take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I'm severe and exacting in heart, and you'll find anxiety for your souls.

[\[00:12:12\]](#transcript-00-12-12-158) You know, that's how we talk.

[\[00:12:13\]](#transcript-00-12-13-159) For my yoke is hard and my burden is heavy.

[\[00:12:15\]](#transcript-00-12-15-160) This collapsing of law and gospel, too.

[\[00:12:18\]](#transcript-00-12-18-161) No wonder we struggle to see the law as good because it, like, we, how could we ever?

[\[00:12:23\]](#transcript-00-12-23-162) You know, we still carry the law around like a yoke to bear, and we're deep down, we're afraid that the law and God Himself is going to come back around in the end and condemn us.

[\[00:12:32\]](#transcript-00-12-32-163) So, what's the antidote?

[\[00:12:36\]](#transcript-00-12-36-164) I think we preach the law in all of its holiness.

[\[00:12:39\]](#transcript-00-12-39-165) We preach the thunder of the law to make it very plain that we cannot do this for righteousness.

[\[00:12:44\]](#transcript-00-12-44-166) And then we preach Christ.

[\[00:12:46\]](#transcript-00-12-46-167) That's right.

[\[00:12:47\]](#transcript-00-12-47-168) And in preaching Christ, what do we say?

[\[00:12:50\]](#transcript-00-12-50-169) We preach obviously the fact that He made satisfaction for all of our sins.

[\[00:12:56\]](#transcript-00-12-56-170) He took our sins upon himself and satisfied the wrath and justice of God for those sins.

[\[00:13:02\]](#transcript-00-13-02-171) And he's never going to give us our sin back.

[\[00:13:04\]](#transcript-00-13-04-172) We preach his perfect life as our righteousness.

[\[00:13:08\]](#transcript-00-13-08-173) It's as though we've been as perfectly obedient as He was obedient as our representative.

[\[00:13:13\]](#transcript-00-13-13-174) We preach the fact that He set us free from sin and the curse of the law and the wrath of God and the tyranny of death and the torment of hell.

[\[00:13:20\]](#transcript-00-13-20-175) We preach that he is our life, our eternal life.

[\[00:13:23\]](#transcript-00-13-23-176) We are guaranteed bodily resurrection and life with God forever because of Christ.

[\[00:13:27\]](#transcript-00-13-27-177) And he's all of that for everyone who believes on his name.

[\[00:13:32\]](#transcript-00-13-32-178) And in the gospel, this is kind of my last thought here.

[\[00:13:35\]](#transcript-00-13-35-179) In the gospel, Jesus says to terrified sinners, and we're terrified rightly because we're terrified by the condemnation of the law and the wrath of God.

[\[00:13:44\]](#transcript-00-13-44-180) He says, Come to me and have no fear of wrath.

[\[00:13:48\]](#transcript-00-13-48-181) If you believe in me, I'm your refuge and you're hidden in me, so that no wrath can ever touch you.

[\[00:13:57\]](#transcript-00-13-57-182) And in the gospel, he says, the guilty sinners, right?

[\[00:14:00\]](#transcript-00-14-00-183) Because we're really guilty, John.

[\[00:14:01\]](#transcript-00-14-01-184) We're lawbreakers, man.

[\[00:14:02\]](#transcript-00-14-02-185) We're unrighteous.

[\[00:14:03\]](#transcript-00-14-03-186) So he says to guilty sinners, come to me and have no fear of condemnation.

[\[00:14:08\]](#transcript-00-14-08-187) If you believe in me, I'm your representative.

[\[00:14:11\]](#transcript-00-14-11-188) You are righteous in me.

[\[00:14:12\]](#transcript-00-14-12-189) So that no condemnation can ever touch you.

[\[00:14:15\]](#transcript-00-14-15-190) And I said this recently in the pulpit here in Asheville.

[\[00:14:21\]](#transcript-00-14-21-191) We can pray what I'm about to pray.

[\[00:14:22\]](#transcript-00-14-22-192) You want to hear a sinner's prayer?

[\[00:14:24\]](#transcript-00-14-24-193) Here's a good one.

[\[00:14:25\]](#transcript-00-14-25-194) Like something like this: Lord Jesus, I'm a wretch.

[\[00:14:28\]](#transcript-00-14-28-195) I'm weak.

[\[00:14:30\]](#transcript-00-14-30-196) I fail often.

[\[00:14:33\]](#transcript-00-14-33-197) I love you, and I know you love me.

[\[00:14:36\]](#transcript-00-14-36-198) Give me faith to trust you and give me grace that I might live unto you.

[\[00:14:39\]](#transcript-00-14-39-199) That's how we live.

[\[00:14:40\]](#transcript-00-14-40-200) It's how we pray.

[\[00:14:41\]](#transcript-00-14-41-201) That's right.

[\[00:14:41\]](#transcript-00-14-41-202) And we can pray that way to him because he is gentle and lowly in heart, and because he is the comfort, the only comfort for sinners.

[\[00:14:51\]](#transcript-00-14-51-203) That's an amen.

[\[00:14:51\]](#transcript-00-14-51-204) And I know that verse, we love because he loves us.

[\[00:14:56\]](#transcript-00-14-56-205) He first loved us.

[\[00:14:58\]](#transcript-00-14-58-206) So, one of the things, you know, Paul tells Timothy, preach all of scripture, all of it.

[\[00:15:03\]](#transcript-00-15-03-207) and we're always like, pound the desk.

[\[00:15:05\]](#transcript-00-15-05-208) Yes.

[\[00:15:06\]](#transcript-00-15-06-209) And people who love to call it antinomianism, they're like, yeah, preach all of scripture because I'm like, listen, no, no, preach all of scripture because God's promises are plain and they're true.

[\[00:15:16\]](#transcript-00-15-16-210) This is the writer of Hebrews who is applying all of scripture in Hebrews 10:22 when he says, Let us draw near with true, with a true heart and full assurance, resting.

[\[00:15:27\]](#transcript-00-15-27-211) Yes, right?

[\[00:15:28\]](#transcript-00-15-28-212) A full assurance of faith with our hearts sprinkled clean from evil consciences and our bodies washed with pure water, meaning that your conscience can be set free.

[\[00:15:39\]](#transcript-00-15-39-213) He says, Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

[\[00:15:48\]](#transcript-00-15-48-214) The reason we can rest is not because we've accomplished something, it's because Jesus fulfilled all that he promised.

[\[00:15:57\]](#transcript-00-15-57-215) Right.

[\[00:15:57\]](#transcript-00-15-57-216) So when we say we can trust Jesus, he's saying have full confidence in that because he's faithful to finish this.

[\[00:16:05\]](#transcript-00-16-05-217) And then he says this, and let us consider how to stir one another up to love and good works.

[\[00:16:10\]](#transcript-00-16-10-218) Why?

[\[00:16:10\]](#transcript-00-16-10-219) Because he is faithful, not neglecting to meet.

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-220) Why?

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-221) Because we need to be reminded, he is faithful.

[\[00:16:16\]](#transcript-00-16-16-222) I love when John writes this.

[\[00:16:17\]](#transcript-00-16-17-223) John says, I write this, his gospel.

[\[00:16:20\]](#transcript-00-16-20-224) I write this that you might believe that he is the Christ.

[\[00:16:25\]](#transcript-00-16-25-225) Why would he want us to believe that he is the Christ?

[\[00:16:28\]](#transcript-00-16-28-226) Because Christ is for sinners, right?

[\[00:16:32\]](#transcript-00-16-32-227) He's the Messiah, He's the chosen sacrifice.

[\[00:16:35\]](#transcript-00-16-35-228) He is the righteousness on our behalf.

[\[00:16:38\]](#transcript-00-16-38-229) So, all of scripture, the culmination of it is: God is a faithful, loving God who did not pour out his wrath on us, but poured it out on his son.

[\[00:16:47\]](#transcript-00-16-47-230) And those who put their faith in him, those who rest in him, have the assurance that God will not fail them and that he is trustworthy.

[\[00:16:55\]](#transcript-00-16-55-231) And that guilty conscience that Justin and I both woke up with this morning.

[\[00:17:00\]](#transcript-00-17-00-232) We run to the scriptures or we run to each other or we run to our bodies and say, please remind me of why I should not feel guilty today.

[\[00:17:08\]](#transcript-00-17-08-233) Please remind me of why I should obey my God.

[\[00:17:11\]](#transcript-00-17-11-234) Please remind me, because of Christ.

[\[00:17:13\]](#transcript-00-17-13-235) Because of Christ.

[\[00:17:14\]](#transcript-00-17-14-236) Amen.

[\[00:17:15\]](#transcript-00-17-15-237) Amen.

[\[00:17:16\]](#transcript-00-17-16-238) 1 John 5:13, very similar to what he writes in his gospel.

[\[00:17:19\]](#transcript-00-17-19-239) I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

[\[00:17:25\]](#transcript-00-17-25-240) Right?

[\[00:17:25\]](#transcript-00-17-25-241) And Calvin, of course, I've said this before, I'll say it again.

[\[00:17:29\]](#transcript-00-17-29-242) When he writes his commentary on that verse, he says, Notice how, though, disciples are confirmed in the faith.

[\[00:17:35\]](#transcript-00-17-35-243) It's by having the office and the power of Christ explained.

[\[00:17:38\]](#transcript-00-17-38-244) And then he says, it's the duty of any godly minister, therefore, to extol, that's quite a word, to extol as much as possible the grace of Christ, so that being satisfied in him, in that sense, we might look

[\[00:17:50\]](#transcript-00-17-50-245) to nothing else.

[\[00:17:52\]](#transcript-00-17-52-246) And you mentioned Hebrews 10, everything that you wrote about full assurance of faith and all these things and the faithfulness of God earlier in that chapter, there's a lot of ink spilled about the law and what the law

[\[00:18:04\]](#transcript-00-18-04-247) requires, and how Jesus came to do the will of God, right?

[\[00:18:07\]](#transcript-00-18-07-248) And how He made a sacrifice once and for all time and made satisfaction for sins.

[\[00:18:12\]](#transcript-00-18-12-249) He sits down at the right hand of God, and then we're told by a single offering, he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

[\[00:18:22\]](#transcript-00-18-22-250) It's like, man, what a comfort verses like this are for us, right?

[\[00:18:27\]](#transcript-00-18-27-251) Because again, I think we're all prone to look at ourselves.

[\[00:18:31\]](#transcript-00-18-31-252) We're all prone to look again, like I said earlier, to the law and to measure ourselves up against that standard.

[\[00:18:38\]](#transcript-00-18-38-253) And if we're not meeting the test, we've been told enough in our lives that we should question our legitimacy.

[\[00:18:42\]](#transcript-00-18-42-254) So I would ask all of us these questions.

[\[00:18:44\]](#transcript-00-18-44-255) Are there times when we're afraid to go to Jesus in our time of need?

[\[00:18:51\]](#transcript-00-18-51-256) You know, are there times when we're afraid to go to Him when we've sinned?

[\[00:18:55\]](#transcript-00-18-55-257) That's right.

[\[00:18:56\]](#transcript-00-18-56-258) Not after we're over it, okay?

[\[00:18:58\]](#transcript-00-18-58-259) And it's kind of out of our minds for whatever reason that is.

[\[00:19:02\]](#transcript-00-19-02-260) But when we've sinned, or are we afraid to go to him?

[\[00:19:04\]](#transcript-00-19-04-261) Are there times when we question whether he would continue to advocate for wretches like we are.

[\[00:19:11\]](#transcript-00-19-11-262) And are there times when we question whether he could still love us given how much we struggle with sin?

[\[00:19:17\]](#transcript-00-19-17-263) And I think the answer for all of us on that question is, yeah, we struggle with that stuff.

[\[00:19:23\]](#transcript-00-19-23-264) And it comes back to the collapsing of the law and the gospel and looking to our performance for some piece of our peace and standing before God, right?

[\[00:19:34\]](#transcript-00-19-34-265) And we can't do that.

[\[00:19:35\]](#transcript-00-19-35-266) We have to look to Christ alone.

[\[00:19:36\]](#transcript-00-19-36-267) And we need to be reminded.

[\[00:19:38\]](#transcript-00-19-38-268) I've been encouraged in thinking about this recently: that, you know, Paul says at the end of Romans 3, he asked this question: you know, he's been pounding the desk for justification by faith apart from works.

[\[00:19:50\]](#transcript-00-19-50-269) Okay.

[\[00:19:50\]](#transcript-00-19-50-270) And so obviously, the question is raised: well, Paul, do we overthrow the law then by this faith?

[\[00:19:59\]](#transcript-00-19-59-271) And he answers, by no means.

[\[00:20:01\]](#transcript-00-20-01-272) On the contrary, we uphold the law.

[\[00:20:03\]](#transcript-00-20-03-273) Well, what's he talking about there?

[\[00:20:04\]](#transcript-00-20-04-274) Most people, John, I think, read that verse.

[\[00:20:07\]](#transcript-00-20-07-275) I'm talking serious-minded evangelicals here.

[\[00:20:10\]](#transcript-00-20-10-276) Read that verse, and they say, Well, yeah, we're justified by faith, apart from works.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-277) We're justified by faith in Christ, you know, grounded in the grace of God alone.

[\[00:20:17\]](#transcript-00-20-17-278) And then we're empowered by the Spirit to keep the law.

[\[00:20:21\]](#transcript-00-20-21-279) And so, therefore, we uphold the law.

[\[00:20:23\]](#transcript-00-20-23-280) Well, what does that produce, John?

[\[00:20:25\]](#transcript-00-20-25-281) But that produces self-examination, that produces a lot of introspection, that produces a lot of us just constantly looking inward to assess how well we're doing with law keeping.

[\[00:20:37\]](#transcript-00-20-37-282) It's as though, you know, in other messaging, right, we're justified by grace through faith in Christ alone.

[\[00:20:43\]](#transcript-00-20-43-283) We're finally saved through that faith and that grace and our law keeping, not helpful.

[\[00:20:49\]](#transcript-00-20-49-284) So we continue to assess ourselves.

[\[00:20:51\]](#transcript-00-20-51-285) All right, so what do we do here?

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-286) I am encouraged, I think what the Apostle Paul is saying entirely, he's spilling ink on justification in these early chapters of Romans.

[\[00:21:00\]](#transcript-00-21-00-287) When he says we uphold the law, he is talking about the fact that Christ fulfilled its penalty and fulfilled its requirements.

[\[00:21:09\]](#transcript-00-21-09-288) Is there more respect?

[\[00:21:10\]](#transcript-00-21-10-289) You want to talk about upholding the law?

[\[00:21:12\]](#transcript-00-21-12-290) May this encourage our hearts.

[\[00:21:13\]](#transcript-00-21-13-291) Is there greater respect that could ever be shown to the law than this: that when God determined to save a people from the curse of the law, it was God the Son Himself who endured its curse and fulfilled

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-292) its requirements.

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-293) That's right.

[\[00:21:26\]](#transcript-00-21-26-294) That is upholding the law and establishing the law.

[\[00:21:29\]](#transcript-00-21-29-295) It's like overthrowing the law.

[\[00:21:30\]](#transcript-00-21-30-296) What in the world are you talking about?

[\[00:21:31\]](#transcript-00-21-31-297) That's right.

[\[00:21:32\]](#transcript-00-21-32-298) That is to exalt and establish the law, that God the Son Himself would take on it and endure its curse and fulfill its requirement.

[\[00:21:40\]](#transcript-00-21-40-299) And if that's true, if he did that, we really have nothing to fear.

[\[00:21:46\]](#transcript-00-21-46-300) That's right.

[\[00:21:48\]](#transcript-00-21-48-301) What could we be afraid of?

[\[00:21:50\]](#transcript-00-21-50-302) Like I said earlier, there is no condemnation because he did it.

[\[00:21:53\]](#transcript-00-21-53-303) He took it.

[\[00:21:54\]](#transcript-00-21-54-304) He said, if you're if you believe in my name, condemnation will never touch you.

[\[00:21:59\]](#transcript-00-21-59-305) There is no wrath for us anymore.

[\[00:22:01\]](#transcript-00-22-01-306) Like, we're not destined.

[\[00:22:02\]](#transcript-00-22-02-307) This is first Thessalonians, right?

[\[00:22:03\]](#transcript-00-22-03-308) We're not destined for wrath, but to receive, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, because he's dealt with the wrath.

[\[00:22:10\]](#transcript-00-22-10-309) It's like you believe in my name, that wrath's never going to touch you, dear one.

[\[00:22:15\]](#transcript-00-22-15-310) Amen.

[\[00:22:16\]](#transcript-00-22-16-311) You know, and it's because we're not overthrowing the law, we're not antinomian in saying these things.

[\[00:22:23\]](#transcript-00-22-23-312) In everything I'm saying right now, I trust that it's very clear that we have great respect for the law because we say that it is rightly, because it's holy and just and good, and we're not, it's our death

[\[00:22:34\]](#transcript-00-22-34-313) sentence.

[\[00:22:35\]](#transcript-00-22-35-314) And then, of course, in Christ, we live in accord with it, but we do that without fear and without condemnation and without dread.

[\[00:22:41\]](#transcript-00-22-41-315) Amen.

[\[00:22:42\]](#transcript-00-22-42-316) Another conversation for another day.

[\[00:22:46\]](#transcript-00-22-46-317) If you're new to Theocast, we have a free e-book available for you called Faith vs.

[\[00:22:50\]](#transcript-00-22-50-318) Faithfulness: A Primer Unrest.

[\[00:22:53\]](#transcript-00-22-53-319) And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a reformed confessional perspective.

[\[00:23:04\]](#transcript-00-23-04-320) You can get your free copy at theocast.org/slash primer.

[\[00:23:11\]](#transcript-00-23-11-321) Well, I think this is important, Justin, because what you're saying robs people of rest because they hear they hear what we're saying and they're like, Yeah, guys, but and then what we're trying to say is anything that has

[\[00:23:20\]](#transcript-00-23-20-322) an

[\[00:23:22\]](#transcript-00-23-22-323) asterisk to it, we want you to remove that asterisk.

[\[00:23:24\]](#transcript-00-23-24-324) Just listen, you're a referencing Romans.

[\[00:23:27\]](#transcript-00-23-27-325) Let's just use Romans for a second here.

[\[00:23:29\]](#transcript-00-23-29-326) Because what Paul says here rocked my world about 15 years ago.

[\[00:23:33\]](#transcript-00-23-33-327) I can remember the first time I heard someone preach this, and I was, it destroyed all of the All of the reasons why I couldn't rest in Christ.

[\[00:23:41\]](#transcript-00-23-41-328) This is Romans chapter 1.

[\[00:23:43\]](#transcript-00-23-43-329) And Paul says, I am eager to preach the gospel to you, Christians, Christians, who are in Rome.

[\[00:23:52\]](#transcript-00-23-52-330) For I am not ashamed of the gospel.

[\[00:23:56\]](#transcript-00-23-56-331) For it, not the law.

[\[00:23:58\]](#transcript-00-23-58-332) That's right.

[\[00:23:58\]](#transcript-00-23-58-333) For it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

[\[00:24:06\]](#transcript-00-24-06-334) Dear Saint Paul is saying, I want to continue to preach to you your salvation in the gospel.

[\[00:24:14\]](#transcript-00-24-14-335) And the gospel is not the law, right?

[\[00:24:16\]](#transcript-00-24-16-336) We keep talking about law, gospel, distinction, dear saint, the gospel is God's power, and so you wrap your brain around that for a moment.

[\[00:24:26\]](#transcript-00-24-26-337) It is the promise that Jesus is sufficient, all of God's power is wrapped up in a message.

[\[00:24:32\]](#transcript-00-24-32-338) And that message is: Christ is sufficient to pay for your sins, Christ is sufficient to provide for you righteousness.

[\[00:24:40\]](#transcript-00-24-40-339) Christ is sufficient to sanctify you.

[\[00:24:42\]](#transcript-00-24-42-340) Christ is sufficient.

[\[00:24:43\]](#transcript-00-24-43-341) I mean, he goes on to say this in chapter eight, right?

[\[00:24:45\]](#transcript-00-24-45-342) Christ is sufficient to glorify you.

[\[00:24:47\]](#transcript-00-24-47-343) He will preserve you.

[\[00:24:49\]](#transcript-00-24-49-344) You need to hear this.

[\[00:24:50\]](#transcript-00-24-50-345) I'm eager for you to hear this.

[\[00:24:51\]](#transcript-00-24-51-346) I can't wait for you to come preach this to you.

[\[00:24:54\]](#transcript-00-24-54-347) There's nothing that will separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:24:57\]](#transcript-00-24-57-348) Nothing.

[\[00:24:58\]](#transcript-00-24-58-349) The whole book is to say, this is God's power, not you, not your power.

[\[00:25:04\]](#transcript-00-25-04-350) God's power is in Jesus.

[\[00:25:06\]](#transcript-00-25-06-351) And I cannot wait to come and preach this to you so that you might hear it.

[\[00:25:10\]](#transcript-00-25-10-352) Amen to all of that.

[\[00:25:12\]](#transcript-00-25-12-353) And Paul's argumentation is brilliant because, after where he says that the gospel is the power of God, he says that in the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed.

[\[00:25:21\]](#transcript-00-25-21-354) And by that, he doesn't mean the attribute of God, that God is righteous.

[\[00:25:25\]](#transcript-00-25-25-355) He's talking about a righteousness that God gives to sinners.

[\[00:25:29\]](#transcript-00-25-29-356) And he says it's entirely of faith.

[\[00:25:31\]](#transcript-00-25-31-357) It is beginning and ending in faith, from faith unto faith.

[\[00:25:35\]](#transcript-00-25-35-358) And so God gives righteousness to sinners.

[\[00:25:37\]](#transcript-00-25-37-359) They receive it by faith.

[\[00:25:38\]](#transcript-00-25-38-360) And this is the only kind of righteousness that fallen human beings could ever have before the Lord.

[\[00:25:43\]](#transcript-00-25-43-361) And that's what he begins to then prove in Romans 1:18 and following.

[\[00:25:47\]](#transcript-00-25-47-362) Let me tell you why this is the only kind of righteousness you could ever have because all men, Jew and Gentile alike, are under sin.

[\[00:25:54\]](#transcript-00-25-54-363) God rewards those who do good, but nobody does good.

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-364) God rewards those who seek him, but nobody does that either.

[\[00:25:59\]](#transcript-00-25-59-365) And so all the law does is shut our mouths, right?

[\[00:26:02\]](#transcript-00-26-02-366) Right.

[\[00:26:03\]](#transcript-00-26-03-367) All the law does is shut our mouths because by works of the law, no flesh will ever be justified.

[\[00:26:08\]](#transcript-00-26-08-368) And then he gives us the good news.

[\[00:26:10\]](#transcript-00-26-10-369) And I want to read, I want to emphasize that point.

[\[00:26:12\]](#transcript-00-26-12-370) We say this a lot, but we need to hear it again.

[\[00:26:14\]](#transcript-00-26-14-371) The gospel is news, it's historical, it's outside of us.

[\[00:26:19\]](#transcript-00-26-19-372) Jesus actually did it, right?

[\[00:26:22\]](#transcript-00-26-22-373) It is finished.

[\[00:26:23\]](#transcript-00-26-23-374) It is something that He alone did.

[\[00:26:25\]](#transcript-00-26-25-375) We don't do it.

[\[00:26:26\]](#transcript-00-26-26-376) We don't live it.

[\[00:26:28\]](#transcript-00-26-28-377) Jesus did it.

[\[00:26:29\]](#transcript-00-26-29-378) Jesus lived it.

[\[00:26:30\]](#transcript-00-26-30-379) We receive it, right?

[\[00:26:32\]](#transcript-00-26-32-380) We're not told.

[\[00:26:33\]](#transcript-00-26-33-381) I'm thinking back to our time in California with some dear friends.

[\[00:26:37\]](#transcript-00-26-37-382) We're not told to live the gospel.

[\[00:26:39\]](#transcript-00-26-39-383) We're told to believe it, receive it, and preach it because we can't ever do it.

[\[00:26:44\]](#transcript-00-26-44-384) And so there's nothing potential about the news of the gospel.

[\[00:26:49\]](#transcript-00-26-49-385) It's done.

[\[00:26:50\]](#transcript-00-26-50-386) Right?

[\[00:26:51\]](#transcript-00-26-51-387) The law is all about potential because it tells us to do this and you'll live.

[\[00:26:55\]](#transcript-00-26-55-388) The gospel is not potential, it's finished and it says receive it, believe it, trust it, rest.

[\[00:27:03\]](#transcript-00-27-03-389) That's right.

[\[00:27:03\]](#transcript-00-27-03-390) Yeah, that's right.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-391) And so, if we can get these things more deeply ingrained in our hearts and minds, we will know comfort and will know peace in ways that we haven't known in the past.

[\[00:27:13\]](#transcript-00-27-13-392) And Jesus, in thinking about the holiness of the law, right?

[\[00:27:17\]](#transcript-00-27-17-393) And Charles Spurgeon says this, and he says it, this is a paraphrase, but it's brilliant.

[\[00:27:21\]](#transcript-00-27-21-394) He says: Any man who thinks that he can ascend to God up the side of Sinai

[\[00:27:27\]](#transcript-00-27-27-395) makes it plain that he has never seen that trembling mountain at all.

[\[00:27:32\]](#transcript-00-27-32-396) That's right.

[\[00:27:32\]](#transcript-00-27-32-397) Right.

[\[00:27:32\]](#transcript-00-27-32-398) Because think about Sinai, right?

[\[00:27:34\]](#transcript-00-27-34-399) I mean, think about the spectacle that was Sinai when God gave the law to his people.

[\[00:27:39\]](#transcript-00-27-39-400) This is Exodus 19:20 and all that surrounding area.

[\[00:27:42\]](#transcript-00-27-42-401) There's thunder and there's smoke and there's fire and there's lightning and the mountains shaking.

[\[00:27:48\]](#transcript-00-27-48-402) And it's like, oh, by the way, don't even come near this mountain or touch it because you'll die.

[\[00:27:54\]](#transcript-00-27-54-403) And yet we think that somehow we're going to earn a piece of our standing before God by doing what the law says.

[\[00:28:01\]](#transcript-00-28-01-404) That's right.

[\[00:28:02\]](#transcript-00-28-02-405) And we can't.

[\[00:28:03\]](#transcript-00-28-03-406) And when we understand that, and we understand the thunder of the law, and when we understand Understand

[\[00:28:12\]](#transcript-00-28-12-407) what God requires for righteousness, we're brought to the end of ourselves, which is a good place to be, because then we're told of the Savior who really did everything that's necessary.

[\[00:28:21\]](#transcript-00-28-21-408) He either did or he didn't, John.

[\[00:28:23\]](#transcript-00-28-23-409) He either fulfilled its penalty and fulfilled its requirement with respect to the law, or he didn't.

[\[00:28:27\]](#transcript-00-28-27-410) That's right.

[\[00:28:28\]](#transcript-00-28-28-411) And if he did it, then where else do we have to go?

[\[00:28:32\]](#transcript-00-28-32-412) That's right.

[\[00:28:32\]](#transcript-00-28-32-413) We look to him alone, and we take him at his word that he says to us, you know, you've been burdened and heavy laden with the commands of the law, with the yoke of the law, but come to

[\[00:28:43\]](#transcript-00-28-43-414) me and I'll give you rest.

[\[00:28:44\]](#transcript-00-28-44-415) Amen.

[\[00:28:45\]](#transcript-00-28-45-416) Because I've done it for you.

[\[00:28:46\]](#transcript-00-28-46-417) Amen.

[\[00:28:47\]](#transcript-00-28-47-418) You know, adding to what you're saying.

[\[00:28:49\]](#transcript-00-28-49-419) You see, the law can please God and it can bring righteousness because Jesus proved that.

[\[00:28:57\]](#transcript-00-28-57-420) God was well pleased with his son because his son obeyed the law.

[\[00:29:01\]](#transcript-00-29-01-421) So you can obey the law and you can please him if you're perfect.

[\[00:29:05\]](#transcript-00-29-05-422) So the writer of Hebrews says something that is so restful for us.

[\[00:29:08\]](#transcript-00-29-08-423) Listen to this: he says, without faith, it isn't, because they want to go back to the law, right?

[\[00:29:14\]](#transcript-00-29-14-424) In Hebrews, without faith, it is impossible to please him.

[\[00:29:18\]](#transcript-00-29-18-425) For whoever draws would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

[\[00:29:25\]](#transcript-00-29-25-426) So, dear saint, we all have this desire to please our God.

[\[00:29:30\]](#transcript-00-29-30-427) We want to.

[\[00:29:31\]](#transcript-00-29-31-428) And He says, You want to please me?

[\[00:29:33\]](#transcript-00-29-33-429) Believe what I've said.

[\[00:29:36\]](#transcript-00-29-36-430) Believe me.

[\[00:29:37\]](#transcript-00-29-37-431) Put your faith in Christ, who is sufficient.

[\[00:29:41\]](#transcript-00-29-41-432) The whole book of Hebrews, Jesus is sufficient.

[\[00:29:43\]](#transcript-00-29-43-433) If you believe that, you'll please me.

[\[00:29:45\]](#transcript-00-29-45-434) Bro, that is so restful for me.

[\[00:29:48\]](#transcript-00-29-48-435) Matthew chapter three, I was reading this the other day just personally, right?

[\[00:29:52\]](#transcript-00-29-52-436) So we know Matthew 3 around verse 15 or so, this is where Jesus comes to be baptized by John the Baptist.

[\[00:29:59\]](#transcript-00-29-59-437) And John the Baptist is just like, brother, you should be baptizing me.

[\[00:30:02\]](#transcript-00-30-02-438) And Jesus says, no, it's appropriate that we would do this in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled.

[\[00:30:07\]](#transcript-00-30-07-439) That's significant.

[\[00:30:08\]](#transcript-00-30-08-440) But it's there, right, at Jesus' baptism, where he's doing this, that all righteousness might be fulfilled.

[\[00:30:13\]](#transcript-00-30-13-441) That obviously the spirit descends like a dove, and there's a voice from heaven.

[\[00:30:17\]](#transcript-00-30-17-442) This is my beloved Son, in whom I am, to your point, well-pleased.

[\[00:30:22\]](#transcript-00-30-22-443) So, if the Father is well pleased in the Son, and we believe in the Son, and we're united to the Son, we're represented by the Son, guess what?

[\[00:30:30\]](#transcript-00-30-30-444) He's well pleased with us in Jesus.

[\[00:30:34\]](#transcript-00-30-34-445) That's the news, right?

[\[00:30:35\]](#transcript-00-30-35-446) And all right, so another thought from me that's going to sound insane.

[\[00:30:38\]](#transcript-00-30-38-447) I know we got to wind this thing down in the next few minutes, but I'm going to go in anyway.

[\[00:30:41\]](#transcript-00-30-41-448) Like, you're thinking, Justin, you started by talking about the law.

[\[00:30:44\]](#transcript-00-30-44-449) That was whack enough.

[\[00:30:46\]](#transcript-00-30-46-450) Now you're going to talk about the judgment seat as a piece of my comfort.

[\[00:30:49\]](#transcript-00-30-49-451) Yes, I am.

[\[00:30:50\]](#transcript-00-30-50-452) All right, so if we, yeah, I am.

[\[00:30:53\]](#transcript-00-30-53-453) So we preach the thunder of the law, we preach the holy requirements of the law so that we're brought to the end of ourselves so that we might look to Christ.

[\[00:31:01\]](#transcript-00-31-01-454) We've covered that.

[\[00:31:02\]](#transcript-00-31-02-455) But we preach the judgment seat, John.

[\[00:31:06\]](#transcript-00-31-06-456) I think we need to consider this more.

[\[00:31:09\]](#transcript-00-31-09-457) The one who is the judge.

[\[00:31:11\]](#transcript-00-31-11-458) It's not the father, by the way, it's God the Son, because all judgment has been given to the Son.

[\[00:31:16\]](#transcript-00-31-16-459) Great comfort that the one who's going to be our judge is the one who died for us and the one who kept the law for us.

[\[00:31:20\]](#transcript-00-31-20-460) I mean, amen.

[\[00:31:21\]](#transcript-00-31-21-461) Praise the Lord for that.

[\[00:31:22\]](#transcript-00-31-22-462) But the one who is the judge, how is he described in the scriptures?

[\[00:31:26\]](#transcript-00-31-26-463) I mean, his eyes are like a flame of fire.

[\[00:31:29\]](#transcript-00-31-29-464) He's so holy that the brightness of his presence, this is Ezekiel 1, right?

[\[00:31:33\]](#transcript-00-31-33-465) It's like gleaming metal all around, like fire enclosed, like a rainbow that appears in the sky on a day of rain.

[\[00:31:39\]](#transcript-00-31-39-466) And he's the one from whom angels hide their faces.

[\[00:31:42\]](#transcript-00-31-42-467) He's the one of whom angels cry, Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of hosts.

[\[00:31:46\]](#transcript-00-31-46-468) And He's the one before whom the mountains melt, the earth heaves, and the valleys are split in two.

[\[00:31:50\]](#transcript-00-31-50-469) All right, it's like this is the judge.

[\[00:31:52\]](#transcript-00-31-52-470) So here's where I go: Calvin says this: that John Calvin, that any talk of justification has to begin at the judgment seat.

[\[00:32:00\]](#transcript-00-32-00-471) Like, what kind of righteousness will stand in that judgment in the court of divine justice, not human justice, divine justice?

[\[00:32:08\]](#transcript-00-32-08-472) When it's like, all right, here we go.

[\[00:32:11\]](#transcript-00-32-11-473) It's a person who never

[\[00:32:14\]](#transcript-00-32-14-474) has walked in the way of sinners or sat in the seat of scoffers, has never taken part in the counsel of the wicked, who meditates on God's law day and night, in whose spirit there's no deceit, who perfectly

[\[00:32:24\]](#transcript-00-32-24-475) loves his neighbor all the time, has never done wrong to anyone, has loved the Lord his God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength every moment.

[\[00:32:30\]](#transcript-00-32-30-476) Let such a one come forward.

[\[00:32:32\]](#transcript-00-32-32-477) Ain't nobody coming, bro.

[\[00:32:34\]](#transcript-00-32-34-478) Nobody's done that.

[\[00:32:35\]](#transcript-00-32-35-479) Right?

[\[00:32:35\]](#transcript-00-32-35-480) So we talk like this because it's like, okay, nobody's coming.

[\[00:32:39\]](#transcript-00-32-39-481) The mass of humanity is assembled and no one can come forward because if you would mark iniquities, oh Lord, who would stand?

[\[00:32:45\]](#transcript-00-32-45-482) No one.

[\[00:32:46\]](#transcript-00-32-46-483) And so then we have to ask: in that moment, this is where final justification is a crock.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-484) Like, you want to tell me that in that moment, in any way whatsoever, that you're going to be like, hey, here are some of my works?

[\[00:33:03\]](#transcript-00-33-03-485) No.

[\[00:33:04\]](#transcript-00-33-04-486) It's completely based.

[\[00:33:06\]](#transcript-00-33-06-487) Obviously, it has to be based only on the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone.

[\[00:33:12\]](#transcript-00-33-12-488) Amen.

[\[00:33:12\]](#transcript-00-33-12-489) You know, and that's a comfort to me.

[\[00:33:14\]](#transcript-00-33-14-490) Like, so it's like, how is the law comforting?

[\[00:33:17\]](#transcript-00-33-17-491) Because I couldn't ever do it.

[\[00:33:19\]](#transcript-00-33-19-492) That's right.

[\[00:33:19\]](#transcript-00-33-19-493) And Jesus says he did it and he fulfilled what it requires and he died under it so that everything the law could ever demand of me, I've been given.

[\[00:33:29\]](#transcript-00-33-29-494) That's comforting.

[\[00:33:31\]](#transcript-00-33-31-495) And then, how's the judgment seat a comfort?

[\[00:33:33\]](#transcript-00-33-33-496) Because it's very obvious that if I was the most virtuous person alive on the planet amongst 8 billion today, when I stand before him and I'm asked to come and say on what basis effectively would I be declared

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-497) just?

[\[00:33:47\]](#transcript-00-33-47-498) I've got nothing, so I've got to look to Christ.

[\[00:33:51\]](#transcript-00-33-51-499) And this is a comfort in a way that may sound insane to the listener at first.

[\[00:33:56\]](#transcript-00-33-56-500) The more you investigate these things, the more of a comfort the law and the judgment seat are because they force us and drive us to Jesus, who is the friend of sinners.

[\[00:34:06\]](#transcript-00-34-06-501) That's right.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-502) I mean, this is, so let's continue.

[\[00:34:10\]](#transcript-00-34-10-503) We're at the judgment seat.

[\[00:34:11\]](#transcript-00-34-11-504) And the disciples say, Well, then who can be saved?

[\[00:34:15\]](#transcript-00-34-15-505) Who can be saved?

[\[00:34:17\]](#transcript-00-34-17-506) And at the judgment seat of Christ, when you're standing there and God says, This is what I demand of you.

[\[00:34:22\]](#transcript-00-34-22-507) And He goes, only my power can do this.

[\[00:34:26\]](#transcript-00-34-26-508) I have taken your sins and I have thrown them in the deepest part of the sea, never to be seen before.

[\[00:34:32\]](#transcript-00-34-32-509) Come here, son.

[\[00:34:33\]](#transcript-00-34-33-510) I'm going to clothe you with what you cannot earn, which is my son's righteousness.

[\[00:34:37\]](#transcript-00-34-37-511) Robes of righteousness.

[\[00:34:38\]](#transcript-00-34-38-512) I'm going to adopt you, and then I'm going to put my inheritance on your finger, and you are mine, and only by my power for what is impossible with man is possible with God.

[\[00:34:51\]](#transcript-00-34-51-513) Church, praise the Lord, man.

[\[00:34:53\]](#transcript-00-34-53-514) Church worldwide, family worldwide.

[\[00:34:56\]](#transcript-00-34-56-515) You can rest in that.

[\[00:34:57\]](#transcript-00-34-57-516) Amen.

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-517) Let that cleanse you, let that refresh you, and let that invigorate you to go tell others with love and passion and compassion about a king who, through his power, will remove their sin, love them, and give them everything

[\[00:35:14\]](#transcript-00-35-14-518) they could ever imagine.

[\[00:35:16\]](#transcript-00-35-16-519) Yeah, that's what rests produce.

[\[00:35:18\]](#transcript-00-35-18-520) I really hope that was encouraging to you because I'm over here hooting and hollering and crying and slobbering while Justin's over here preaching the gospel, brother.

[\[00:35:26\]](#transcript-00-35-26-521) Amen.

[\[00:35:26\]](#transcript-00-35-26-522) Amen.

[\[00:35:27\]](#transcript-00-35-27-523) The Lord is good.

[\[00:35:28\]](#transcript-00-35-28-524) I think you've got to be the one to take us out, John, because you didn't.

[\[00:35:31\]](#transcript-00-35-31-525) You're right.

[\[00:35:31\]](#transcript-00-35-31-526) I will take us out.

[\[00:35:33\]](#transcript-00-35-33-527) Well, we specifically wanted to record this episode that you would be able to use that as a means of refreshment, but also to share it with friends and family and anyone else that might need to be encouraged.

[\[00:35:42\]](#transcript-00-35-42-528) So we pray that the Lord would bless that and do that.

[\[00:35:46\]](#transcript-00-35-46-529) Justin and I do a second podcast every week called Semper Reformanda.

[\[00:35:50\]](#transcript-00-35-50-530) It's for those who monthly support us through donation, and we have an app and an education department called theocast you if you want to learn more about that it's coming and we're working on it uh but if you

[\[00:36:00\]](#transcript-00-36-00-531) want to learn more about that you go to theocast.org uh we're going to talk a little bit more about this uh more specifically on how it is we can continue to advance such a great message of rest.

[\[00:36:10\]](#transcript-00-36-10-532) We're going to do that with our members, so you can go over and join us there.

[\[00:36:13\]](#transcript-00-36-13-533) Thank you for listening.

[\[00:36:15\]](#transcript-00-36-15-534) If this was helpful for you, the greatest way you can help us is to share it on social medias, to go leave us a review on iTunes.

[\[00:36:24\]](#transcript-00-36-24-535) Those are just simple ways that the world would end up hearing a needed message of the power of God.

[\[00:36:30\]](#transcript-00-36-30-536) Thank you guys for listening, and Lord willing, we'll see you in the presence of our king.

[\[00:36:34\]](#transcript-00-36-34-537) If not, then we'll be back here next week to give you more of Christ in all of Scripture.

[\[00:36:39\]](#transcript-00-36-39-538) See you then.

---

### Christianizing the Nations? (w/ Chris Gordon)

*Published: February 22, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/christianizing-the-nations-w-chris-gordon*
*Tags: Mission of the church*

While on the west coast, Jon and Justin were invited by Chris Gordon (host of Abounding Grace Radio and pastor of Escondido United Reformed Church) to do some recording. This episode is the second portion of that conversation. The guys discuss the Great Commission. What is it? Is it a call to Christianize the nations? Or is it the preaching of Jesus Christ for the justification of sinners? (Hint: It’s the latter.)

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about theonomy--how it confuses the law and obscures the gospel.

https://youtu.be/T6MvzEdDht8

---

### There Is No Gospel in Romans 2

*Published: February 15, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/there-is-no-gospel-in-romans-2*
*Tags: law gospel distinction*

"God will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek" (Romans 2:6-7, 10). Is Paul writing that our works are a piece of our righteousness before God? Is he arguing that our works factor into our salvation? Jon and Justin consider the law, the gospel, and the argument of Paul from the early chapters of Romans in today's episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk more pointedly about modern commentators and theologians who confuse Romans 2, as well as the dangers and fallout of this confusion.

Resources:  
[Justin's sermons in Romans](https://covbap.org/romans-christ-our-only-righteousness/ "‌")  
[Category Resource Page: Law/Gospel Distinction](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/theocast-categories/ "‌")

https://youtu.be/mEYgzLNyeXs

---

### Give Me Jesus, Not Self-Improvement (w/ Chris Gordon)

*Published: February 8, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/give-me-jesus-not-self-improvement-w-chris-gordon*
*Tags: preaching*

While on the west coast, Jon and Justin were invited by Chris Gordon (host of Abounding Grace Radio and pastor of Escondido United Reformed Church) to do some recording. This episode is the first portion of that conversation. The guys discuss differences between the preaching of Christ and the preaching of self-improvement, problems with an over-emphasis on application in preaching, as well as the most important thing to look for in a church.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin give a recap of their recent trip to California, which included recording content with The Babylon Bee, The Pactum, NoCo Radio, The Heidelcast, and Abounding Grace Radio.  
  
[Abounding Grace Radio](https://agradio.org/)  
  
https://youtu.be/SHR9FnSAM\_0

---

### Crusade for Glory

*Published: February 1, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/crusade-for-glory*
*Tags: Theology of Glory*

"What's wrong with the church in America?" That's a question many people are asking today. Underneath that question are a number of other questions: What is the mission of the church? What is the purpose of the Christian life? Is the church called to transform society? Is Christianity meant by God to dominate a culture? Or is it a counter-culture this side of Christ's second coming? Jon and Justin consider these things as they discuss how the American church has bought into a theology of glory.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk more about what they are most concerned for as pastors and what they see as primary concerns in the church. Justin also talks about a Christmas program he recently attended.  
  
Resources:  
[Our episode on Theology of the Cross](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/tag/theology-of-the-cross/)  
[Our episode on Two Kingdoms (w/ David VanDrunen)](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/two-kingdoms-with-david-vandrunen/)  
[Our episode on Mission Critical](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/mission-critical/)  
[Our episodes on the Tactics of the Accuser](https://youtu.be/Uzk%5F%5FJICbnQ)  
  
https://youtu.be/ZW39cJfGt0o

---

### Our Interview with the Babylon Bee!

*Published: January 25, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/our-interview-with-the-babylon-bee*
*Tags: Interview*

The Babylon Bee sits down with Jonathan Moffitt and Justin Perdue from Theocast to talk about pietism and revivalism being the soil American Evangelicalism grew out of and how that might be messing with the assurance of the Gospel. They also hit topics like reading the Bible literally, the Law/Gospel distinction, and, just for fun, how to interpret the Book of Revelation. If that wasn’t enough for you, they also discuss non-controversial topics like whether or not the nation of Israel is God’s chosen people and why some Christians might object to watching The Chosen.

[The Babylon Bee Podcast](https://babylonbee.com/podcasts/the-babylon-bee-podcast)  
  
https://youtu.be/2teOo8shZyM

---

### Getting the Gospel Right (w/ NoCo Radio, The Pactum, and The Heidelcast)

*Published: January 18, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/getting-the-gospel-right-w-noco-radio-the-pactum-and-the-heidelcast*
*Tags: Gospel*

In this special podcast, Jon and Justin are joined by fellow reformed podcasters, Mike Abendroth from No Compromise Radio, Pat Abendroth and Mike Grimes from The Pactum, and R. Scott Clark The Heidelcast!

Recorded live at Westminster Theological Seminary California, all the guys discuss Covenant Theology, Assurance, Law/Gospel Distinction, and Sola Fide!  
  
[Check out No Compromise Radio](https://nocompromiseradio.com/)  
  
[Check out The Pactum](https://www.thepactum.org/)  
  
[Check out The Heidelcast](https://heidelblog.net/the-heidelcast/)  
  
https://youtu.be/8u2VyoWMzaA

---

### Tactics of the Accuser (Part 2)

*Published: January 11, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/tactics-of-the-accuser-part-2*
*Tags: Spiritual Warfare*

Today's episode is the second of two on the tactics of the accuser, Satan, the ancient serpent who is the devil. Jon and Justin continue the conversation on spiritual warfare and the work of the evil one by considering how he tempts the saints. And then, the guys spend the bulk of the time discussing how Satan distracts us in the church--with things that are not inherently bad; in fact, often he distracts us with things that are good and even appear pious. The work of Satan to tempt and distract us deters us in our mission in the kingdom of Christ. We are called to be sober minded. The guys consider what that means.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk more about our calling as believers. We are to be soldiers of Christ who are not distracted by civilian pursuits. We are to look to Christ and set aside things that weigh us down and entangle us. Finally, the guys talk some more about sober mindedness and glorifying God.

https://youtu.be/8W\_KeNM0tgc

---

### Tactics of the Accuser (Part 1)

*Published: January 4, 2023 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/tactics-of-the-accuser-part-1*
*Tags: Spiritual Warfare*

Today's episode is the first of two on the tactics of the accuser, Satan, the ancient serpent who is the devil. Spiritual warfare is real, and as C. S. Lewis wrote, Christians tend to either hardly consider the devil's power or obsess over his power and activity. Neither of these perspectives are helpful or biblical. Jon and Justin consider this and then talk at length about perhaps the first of Satan's tactics against the saints: accusation. He seeks to rob us of the peace, rest, and hope that is ours in Christ. He seeks to cause us to question whether God is really our Father and whether Christ is really our savior.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk more about the reality of spiritual warfare, the accusations of Satan, the sufficiency of Christ, and how this relates to the mission of the kingdom of Christ.

https://youtu.be/Uzk\_\_JICbnQ

---

### The Danger of Denying Works (w/ Pat Abendroth)

*Published: December 14, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-danger-of-denying-works-w-pat-abendroth*
*Tags: Covenant of Works, Covenant Theology*

On today's episode, Jon and Justin are again joined by Pat Abendroth, pastor of Omaha Bible Church and cohost of The Pactum. In the second of two conversations on the covenant of works, the guys consider the implications of the covenant works. Does it really matter if one affirms the covenant of works? What are the dangers of denying it? In particular, the guys focus on how an understanding of the covenant of works relates to our understanding of the work of Christ, the gospel, and assurance of salvation.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk with Pat Abendroth about the wreckage produced by a denial of a covenant of works/covenant of grace framework. We see this wreckage all around us in our day.

Resources:  
[Our teaching series on covenant theology](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/introduction-to-covenant-theology/ "‌")  
[Our episodes on the implications of the covenant theology](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/un-perplexing-the-old-testament/ "‌")  
[Our episode "I Just Believe the Bible"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/i-just-believe-the-bible/ "‌")  
[The Pactum Podcast](https://www.thepactum.org/ "‌")

https://youtu.be/zJ\_V33Xl7Jk

---

### Is the Covenant of Works in the Bible? (w/ Pat Abendroth)

*Published: December 7, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-the-covenant-of-works-in-the-bible-w-pat-abendroth*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: Covenant of Works, Covenant Theology*

On today's episode, Jon and Justin are joined by Pat Abendroth, pastor of Omaha Bible Church and cohost of The Pactum. In the first of two conversations on the covenant of works, the guys answer the question, "Is the covenant of works really in the Bible?" The guys seek to make a case for the legitimacy of the covenant of works from the Scripture and begin to venture into the significance of affirming (or denying) it.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk personally with Pat Abendroth about his ministry and about his "journey" from dispensationalism to covenant theology.

Resources:  
[Our teaching series on covenant theology](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/introduction-to-covenant-theology/)  
[Our episodes on the implications of the covenant theology](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/un-perplexing-the-old-testament/)  
[Our episode "I Just Believe the Bible"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/i-just-believe-the-bible/)  
[The Pactum Podcast](https://www.thepactum.org/)

https://youtu.be/M5U1tiFmbho 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:04\]](#transcript-00-00-04-1) Hi, this is Jon, and today on Theocast, Justin and I interview a special guest on the covenant of works and why it is so important.

[\[00:00:13\]](#transcript-00-00-13-2) We argue from the Bible that the covenant of works can be found in the text, and it's vitally important to our understanding of the gospel, specifically Christ's righteousness for us.

[\[00:00:24\]](#transcript-00-00-24-3) It's a fun conversation, it's a lively one, and this is part one of a two-part episode that we do with Pat Abendroth.

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-4) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:33\]](#transcript-00-00-33-5) A simple and easy way for you to help support Theocast each month is by shopping at Amazon through the Amazon Smile program.

[\[00:00:39\]](#transcript-00-00-39-6) When you make a purchase through Amazon Smile, a portion of the proceeds will be donated to our ministry.

[\[00:00:44\]](#transcript-00-00-44-7) To learn how to sign up, just go to theocast.org/slash give.

[\[00:01:00\]](#transcript-00-01-00-8) Welcome to Theocast, Encouraging Weary Pilgrims to Rest in Christ: Conversations about Christian Life from a Reformed and pastoral perspective.

[\[00:01:08\]](#transcript-00-01-08-9) If you’re curious about what this podcast is about, we're trying to clarify the gospel and reclaim the purpose of the kingdom.

[\[00:01:14\]](#transcript-00-01-14-10) And your hosts today are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:01:20\]](#transcript-00-01-20-11) I'm Jon Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:01:24\]](#transcript-00-01-24-12) And today is a two-parter with a dear friend of ours, and probably most of you are aware of the Pactum.

[\[00:01:32\]](#transcript-00-01-32-13) I always laugh how you say that.

[\[00:01:33\]](#transcript-00-01-33-14) The Pactum.

[\[00:01:34\]](#transcript-00-01-34-15) On the Pactum.

[\[00:01:37\]](#transcript-00-01-37-16) The Pactum verse.

[\[00:01:38\]](#transcript-00-01-38-17) I'm actually a listener.

[\[00:01:39\]](#transcript-00-01-39-18) I promote listening to the Pactum.

[\[00:01:42\]](#transcript-00-01-42-19) I'm thankful you guys are both card-carrying members of the Pactum.

[\[00:01:45\]](#transcript-00-01-45-20) We are card carrying me.

[\[00:01:46\]](#transcript-00-01-46-21) I just want to know when I'm going to get my hat.

[\[00:01:48\]](#transcript-00-01-48-22) that's good.

[\[00:01:49\]](#transcript-00-01-49-23) That's good.

[\[00:01:49\]](#transcript-00-01-49-24) I don't always listen to podcasts, but when I do,

[\[00:01:53\]](#transcript-00-01-53-25) yeah, there you go.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-26) It often is the pack.

[\[00:01:55\]](#transcript-00-01-55-27) I have a secret theocast tattoo.

[\[00:01:57\]](#transcript-00-01-57-28) Nobody can know about it, though.

[\[00:01:58\]](#transcript-00-01-58-29) Oh, there you go.

[\[00:01:59\]](#transcript-00-01-59-30) Hopefully it's not the old logo.

[\[00:02:01\]](#transcript-00-02-01-31) We haven't even said this gentleman's name yet.

[\[00:02:03\]](#transcript-00-02-03-32) Yes, with us today is none other than, for those of you that know the Pactum, you did not hear Mike's voice.

[\[00:02:09\]](#transcript-00-02-09-33) You heard Pat Abendroth's voice.

[\[00:02:10\]](#transcript-00-02-10-34) That's right.

[\[00:02:11\]](#transcript-00-02-11-35) And so it's good to have Pat with us.

[\[00:02:13\]](#transcript-00-02-13-36) Pat is the pastor of Omaha Bible Church.

[\[00:02:16\]](#transcript-00-02-16-37) He's been there since 1998 and has five children.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-38) He has been married.

[\[00:02:21\]](#transcript-00-02-21-39) We just learned right now, 32 years.

[\[00:02:23\]](#transcript-00-02-23-40) Is that correct?

[\[00:02:24\]](#transcript-00-02-24-41) This is true.

[\[00:02:25\]](#transcript-00-02-25-42) It's a great blessing in my life.

[\[00:02:26\]](#transcript-00-02-26-43) Yep.

[\[00:02:27\]](#transcript-00-02-27-44) Yeah.

[\[00:02:28\]](#transcript-00-02-28-45) So, and I've known of Pat for Mrs.

[\[00:02:31\]](#transcript-00-02-31-46) Packdom, Mrs.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-47) Pack, Mr.

[\[00:02:33\]](#transcript-00-02-33-48) Pat Pactum.

[\[00:02:36\]](#transcript-00-02-36-49) See, I've known of the Abund Ross for probably 15 years, and then Mike and I, or sorry, Pat and I met.

[\[00:02:43\]](#transcript-00-02-43-50) I think you did a midger treat, it was the first time I met you about 10 years ago.

[\[00:02:46\]](#transcript-00-02-46-51) Okay, That brought in Nashville.

[\[00:02:49\]](#transcript-00-02-49-52) Yep.

[\[00:02:49\]](#transcript-00-02-49-53) And you came out and you were talking about what is the gospel.

[\[00:02:53\]](#transcript-00-02-53-54) I remember.

[\[00:02:54\]](#transcript-00-02-54-55) I remember specifically.

[\[00:02:55\]](#transcript-00-02-55-56) Yeah, I do.

[\[00:02:56\]](#transcript-00-02-56-57) I remember you were talking about the law, the Ten Commandments, is not the gospel.

[\[00:02:59\]](#transcript-00-02-59-58) It was really good.

[\[00:03:00\]](#transcript-00-03-00-59) How about that?

[\[00:03:01\]](#transcript-00-03-01-60) Good.

[\[00:03:02\]](#transcript-00-03-02-61) You know what?

[\[00:03:02\]](#transcript-00-03-02-62) I don't want to claim a lot of old things I've said before, but we had already sounds like a good one.

[\[00:03:08\]](#transcript-00-03-08-63) I can't say journey on the Pactum, but I can say it on Theocast.

[\[00:03:11\]](#transcript-00-03-11-64) So I already started my journey.

[\[00:03:12\]](#transcript-00-03-12-65) Journey.

[\[00:03:16\]](#transcript-00-03-16-66) And well, I'll go ahead and announce this now.

[\[00:03:18\]](#transcript-00-03-18-67) It's fun.

[\[00:03:20\]](#transcript-00-03-20-68) Justin and I are going to be traveling to San Diego, and we're going to have the opportunity to do a podcast with Mike and Pat from NoCo Radio.

[\[00:03:30\]](#transcript-00-03-30-69) And so we're going to have a big podcast.

[\[00:03:32\]](#transcript-00-03-32-70) I know Mike's been trying to come up with names about how to combine all three podcasts, and none of them have sounded good.

[\[00:03:37\]](#transcript-00-03-37-71) You're exactly right.

[\[00:03:38\]](#transcript-00-03-38-72) Yep.

[\[00:03:39\]](#transcript-00-03-39-73) Yeah.

[\[00:03:40\]](#transcript-00-03-40-74) So, anyways, if you haven't checked out the Pactum, please do so.

[\[00:03:46\]](#transcript-00-03-46-75) And we would encourage you.

[\[00:03:48\]](#transcript-00-03-48-76) Now, Pat, you have you've written, did you was it your dissertation or did you actually have a book on covenant theology.

[\[00:03:54\]](#transcript-00-03-54-77) No, it's the dissertation, and it's still free on the Omaha Bible Church website, but it will be in book form anytime now.

[\[00:04:00\]](#transcript-00-04-00-78) So make sure you read it free, otherwise, you're going to have to buy it on Amazon.

[\[00:04:06\]](#transcript-00-04-06-79) Good.

[\[00:04:06\]](#transcript-00-04-06-80) I've read it.

[\[00:04:07\]](#transcript-00-04-07-81) It's great.

[\[00:04:08\]](#transcript-00-04-08-82) What will be the title, Pat?

[\[00:04:10\]](#transcript-00-04-10-83) I think it's just going to be called Covenant Theology.

[\[00:04:12\]](#transcript-00-04-12-84) Okay.

[\[00:04:13\]](#transcript-00-04-13-85) Yep.

[\[00:04:13\]](#transcript-00-04-13-86) Just going to be super simple and basic.

[\[00:04:15\]](#transcript-00-04-15-87) I just saw the artwork for the cover, and it's looking good.

[\[00:04:18\]](#transcript-00-04-18-88) So excited.

[\[00:04:19\]](#transcript-00-04-19-89) Wait a minute.

[\[00:04:19\]](#transcript-00-04-19-90) You mean we're going to have a Baptist version of covenant theology available here?

[\[00:04:23\]](#transcript-00-04-23-91) I'm excited.

[\[00:04:24\]](#transcript-00-04-24-92) Come on, son.

[\[00:04:26\]](#transcript-00-04-26-93) Some people say I'm a closet Presbyterian, but anyway.

[\[00:04:29\]](#transcript-00-04-29-94) Oh, we get that all the time.

[\[00:04:30\]](#transcript-00-04-30-95) Right?

[\[00:04:31\]](#transcript-00-04-31-96) Yeah.

[\[00:04:32\]](#transcript-00-04-32-97) So it's so funny.

[\[00:04:33\]](#transcript-00-04-33-98) I basically, I basically wrote it to try to show that you can believe in covenant theology and have whatever millennial view you'd like, and you can whatever rapture view you'd like, because it's not really about that, it's about

[\[00:04:44\]](#transcript-00-04-44-99) soteriology, first and foremost.

[\[00:04:46\]](#transcript-00-04-46-100) So that's right.

[\[00:04:47\]](#transcript-00-04-47-101) Anyway, amen.

[\[00:04:48\]](#transcript-00-04-48-102) Amen.

[\[00:04:49\]](#transcript-00-04-49-103) Along those lines, covenant theology being about soteriology.

[\[00:04:52\]](#transcript-00-04-52-104) How about that?

[\[00:04:53\]](#transcript-00-04-53-105) We're going to talk today, since we have a man literally who has written a book on the topic, we're going to talk some covenant theology today.

[\[00:04:59\]](#transcript-00-04-59-106) And you had your work on covenant of works, right?

[\[00:05:02\]](#transcript-00-05-02-107) Right.

[\[00:05:02\]](#transcript-00-05-02-108) Yep.

[\[00:05:03\]](#transcript-00-05-03-109) Right.

[\[00:05:04\]](#transcript-00-05-04-110) So in the first of two episodes, covenant of grace, covenant of redemption.

[\[00:05:07\]](#transcript-00-05-07-111) Excellent.

[\[00:05:08\]](#transcript-00-05-08-112) Yeah.

[\[00:05:08\]](#transcript-00-05-08-113) So while we're here, 30,000-foot view, the three major covenants revealed in the scripture: the covenant of redemption, the Pactum Salutis, right?

[\[00:05:15\]](#transcript-00-05-15-114) Made an eternity pass between most pointedly the Father and the Son concerning the redemption of a people that would be redeemed through the work of the Son, and the Son would inherit them, and those people would live with

[\[00:05:26\]](#transcript-00-05-26-115) him in a redeemed earth, a new heavens, and a new earth forever.

[\[00:05:30\]](#transcript-00-05-30-116) Then we have the covenant of works that God made with Adam in the Garden of Eden, and we're going to talk more pointedly about that one today.

[\[00:05:36\]](#transcript-00-05-36-117) And then the covenant of grace, uh, promised in Genesis 3:15 and revealed progressively throughout the rest of scripture, established in the coming of Christ in the new covenant.

[\[00:05:45\]](#transcript-00-05-45-118) So, yeah, we're talking covenant theology today with a man who has written a volume on the topic.

[\[00:05:50\]](#transcript-00-05-50-119) We're going to talk today most pointedly about the covenant of works that God made with Adam.

[\[00:05:55\]](#transcript-00-05-55-120) And this first of two episodes is going to be effectively answering the question: is the covenant of works in the Bible?

[\[00:06:01\]](#transcript-00-06-01-121) Is this a legitimate category?

[\[00:06:02\]](#transcript-00-06-02-122) Because this is an objection raised by many people, at least it has been in my experience, when we start to talk in these terms about a covenant of works or a covenant period made with Adam in which he

[\[00:06:14\]](#transcript-00-06-14-123) represented the entire human race, in which God gave him

[\[00:06:20\]](#transcript-00-06-20-124) not only his moral law, but then positive commands in addition that needed to be obeyed for eternal life, that the possibility of eternal life stood before Adam to be earned for himself and his posterity.

[\[00:06:32\]](#transcript-00-06-32-125) And obviously, he faced the sanctions of this covenant should he break it.

[\[00:06:37\]](#transcript-00-06-37-126) That whole idea of a covenant being made with Adam is objected to by many because the word covenant doesn't occur in the first couple of chapters of the scripture.

[\[00:06:46\]](#transcript-00-06-46-127) In Genesis 2, in particular, that language of covenant does not show up.

[\[00:06:50\]](#transcript-00-06-50-128) And so people will rightly say: are we inserting categories into the scriptures that aren't there?

[\[00:06:56\]](#transcript-00-06-56-129) And are we trying to force the Bible into our nice systematic theological categories?

[\[00:07:00\]](#transcript-00-07-00-130) So I think it's a good thing for us to start here.

[\[00:07:03\]](#transcript-00-07-03-131) And then in the second of two episodes, we hope to be able to answer some questions or think together about implications of the covenant of works.

[\[00:07:11\]](#transcript-00-07-11-132) Like, if this is a covenant made with Adam in the garden, how does this matter for us now living in the 21st century and the new covenant?

[\[00:07:19\]](#transcript-00-07-19-133) And what significance is there to denying or affirming a covenant of works, even as we think about the work of Christ for us?

[\[00:07:25\]](#transcript-00-07-25-134) So that's episode two.

[\[00:07:26\]](#transcript-00-07-26-135) But you need to listen to episode one to understand episode two.

[\[00:07:29\]](#transcript-00-07-29-136) At least I hope that's plain.

[\[00:07:31\]](#transcript-00-07-31-137) So we're off and running here.

[\[00:07:32\]](#transcript-00-07-32-138) Pat, I'm going to throw it to you, man, our resident expert on covenant theology.

[\[00:07:36\]](#transcript-00-07-36-139) Okay.

[\[00:07:36\]](#transcript-00-07-36-140) So, how would you begin to answer that question?

[\[00:07:38\]](#transcript-00-07-38-141) Is the covenant of works in the Bible?

[\[00:07:42\]](#transcript-00-07-42-142) Maybe what is the covenant of works and is it in the Bible?

[\[00:07:44\]](#transcript-00-07-44-143) Sure.

[\[00:07:44\]](#transcript-00-07-44-144) Those are two big ones.

[\[00:07:45\]](#transcript-00-07-45-145) Justin, you've done such a good job articulating covenant theology.

[\[00:07:48\]](#transcript-00-07-48-146) I was ready for like the altar call, and I was ready forward.

[\[00:07:51\]](#transcript-00-07-51-147) We're all for that.

[\[00:07:52\]](#transcript-00-07-52-148) I'm not sure why I'm on the episode.

[\[00:07:54\]](#transcript-00-07-54-149) The bustles await feeling all warm inside.

[\[00:07:57\]](#transcript-00-07-57-150) We'll play 42 stanzas, the bustles await.

[\[00:07:59\]](#transcript-00-07-59-151) That's right.

[\[00:08:00\]](#transcript-00-08-00-152) And come to the altar where you're sacrificing what I don't know, given that that's an old covenant category.

[\[00:08:04\]](#transcript-00-08-04-153) But there we go.

[\[00:08:06\]](#transcript-00-08-06-154) Every eye closed, every head bowed.

[\[00:08:08\]](#transcript-00-08-08-155) Yeah.

[\[00:08:08\]](#transcript-00-08-08-156) Right?

[\[00:08:09\]](#transcript-00-08-09-157) Oh, man.

[\[00:08:10\]](#transcript-00-08-10-158) Pat, come forward, put your stick in the fire, man, and tell us about Covenant Theological.

[\[00:08:15\]](#transcript-00-08-15-159) You know, when you were speaking, Justin, I was thinking that's right, the common objection is: oh, yes, it's in the white spaces, it's not really there.

[\[00:08:21\]](#transcript-00-08-21-160) And it sounds like maybe a slam dunk argument at first, but then you pose questions to people who say such things, and you say, Well, the word sin isn't used in the early chapters of Genesis either.

[\[00:08:34\]](#transcript-00-08-34-161) Obviously, sin is there, and then, all of a sudden, you can almost see the wheels turning in their minds because they're like, oh, that's right.

[\[00:08:42\]](#transcript-00-08-42-162) And the word Trinity isn't there, but God is there.

[\[00:08:46\]](#transcript-00-08-46-163) Yeah.

[\[00:08:46\]](#transcript-00-08-46-164) Second Samuel chapter 7, Davidic covenant doesn't say covenant, but that's the text we always go to because there's a covenant there.

[\[00:08:54\]](#transcript-00-08-54-165) And everyone accepts that covenant, too.

[\[00:08:56\]](#transcript-00-08-56-166) Right?

[\[00:08:56\]](#transcript-00-08-56-167) Kind of a word study fallacy, maybe, is what we would call that.

[\[00:09:00\]](#transcript-00-09-00-168) Word concept fallacy, word study fallacy.

[\[00:09:02\]](#transcript-00-09-02-169) Exactly.

[\[00:09:02\]](#transcript-00-09-02-170) That's right.

[\[00:09:02\]](#transcript-00-09-02-171) That's right.

[\[00:09:04\]](#transcript-00-09-04-172) So, and that means briefly for people that the idea there is that if a word is not present, then the concept is not present.

[\[00:09:12\]](#transcript-00-09-12-173) And we would say, well, no, that's not exactly true.

[\[00:09:15\]](#transcript-00-09-15-174) The word covenant may not be there, but the concept definitely is there when we take the scripture on its own terms.

[\[00:09:21\]](#transcript-00-09-21-175) Right.

[\[00:09:22\]](#transcript-00-09-22-176) And if we start by saying, okay, what is even, what is even what is a covenant?

[\[00:09:25\]](#transcript-00-09-25-177) And a covenant is a formal agreement.

[\[00:09:27\]](#transcript-00-09-27-178) And by agreement, we don't mean it has to be between equal parties.

[\[00:09:32\]](#transcript-00-09-32-179) You know, God is obviously the creator, the authority, but it's a binding relationship.

[\[00:09:37\]](#transcript-00-09-37-180) It's not a casual relationship between Adam and God, it's a formal relationship, sort of like a marriage is a covenant.

[\[00:09:43\]](#transcript-00-09-43-181) The Bible calls marriage a covenant.

[\[00:09:44\]](#transcript-00-09-44-182) It's, I don't have a casual relationship with my wife.

[\[00:09:48\]](#transcript-00-09-48-183) It might be romantic, but it's also legally binding.

[\[00:09:53\]](#transcript-00-09-53-184) So, anyway, so it's this formal agreement between Adam and God, whereby Adam was to do certain things.

[\[00:10:01\]](#transcript-00-10-01-185) He wasn't free to do whatever he wanted to do.

[\[00:10:03\]](#transcript-00-10-03-186) And even that's built in the fact that he's a created being, he's obligated to do certain things, and those certain things are whatever God says.

[\[00:10:11\]](#transcript-00-10-11-187) So I would say, even by the fact that it's a creator-creature relationship, it's formal and binding.

[\[00:10:19\]](#transcript-00-10-19-188) He's not a free agent to do whatever he wants to do.

[\[00:10:21\]](#transcript-00-10-21-189) So it's already looking like a covenant, even though we haven't even gotten into the text yet.

[\[00:10:27\]](#transcript-00-10-27-190) Well, in Genesis chapter 2, if I may insert here, talking about the text a little bit, and this is before verse 17, like just leading up to Genesis 2:17.

[\[00:10:36\]](#transcript-00-10-36-191) So, you like you said, God made man in his own image, and then in Genesis 2:7 and 8, it's very interesting the language.

[\[00:10:43\]](#transcript-00-10-43-192) You know, we're talking to serious-minded evangelicals here, people who care about the words on the page.

[\[00:10:48\]](#transcript-00-10-48-193) So let's talk about those for a minute.

[\[00:10:50\]](#transcript-00-10-50-194) In Genesis 2, 7, and 8, we read this: Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

[\[00:11:00\]](#transcript-00-11-00-195) And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.

[\[00:11:07\]](#transcript-00-11-07-196) So, in other words, Adam is formed, then Eden was prepared, and then Adam was put there.

[\[00:11:12\]](#transcript-00-11-12-197) Like that, in and of itself, is significant because it's an intentional thing that God is doing with him.

[\[00:11:18\]](#transcript-00-11-18-198) I know I sort of grew up thinking that Adam was made in Eden, and in reality, Adam is formed, and then the Lord plants a garden and puts Adam there for a particular purpose.

[\[00:11:31\]](#transcript-00-11-31-199) That's a big deal.

[\[00:11:32\]](#transcript-00-11-32-200) Yeah, that's a big deal.

[\[00:11:33\]](#transcript-00-11-33-201) Deal.

[\[00:11:33\]](#transcript-00-11-33-202) You know, It's also a big deal, even to think in terms of the Pentateuch.

[\[00:11:37\]](#transcript-00-11-37-203) And when you, this is kind of fun to talk about covenant theology in the Bible, and we haven't even really gotten to the verses yet.

[\[00:11:44\]](#transcript-00-11-44-204) But taking a little bit different tact, if you think about who wrote the Pentateuch and as Bible-believing, conservative evangelicals, Reformed Christians, we would say, well, that was Moses.

[\[00:11:55\]](#transcript-00-11-55-205) It wasn't Adam.

[\[00:11:57\]](#transcript-00-11-57-206) And it all came together.

[\[00:11:58\]](#transcript-00-11-58-207) It all comes as one volume, if you will, or multiple books in the library, if you will.

[\[00:12:05\]](#transcript-00-12-05-208) And no Israelite would have read Genesis without thinking in light of the whole Pentateuch.

[\[00:12:10\]](#transcript-00-12-10-209) And so if you read the whole, you're like, oh, this is a covenantal document.

[\[00:12:15\]](#transcript-00-12-15-210) This is the covenantal God.

[\[00:12:17\]](#transcript-00-12-17-211) There's no question about that.

[\[00:12:19\]](#transcript-00-12-19-212) So it's a mistake to read Genesis 1 to 3 in isolation from the first five books.

[\[00:12:24\]](#transcript-00-12-24-213) They're meant to go together.

[\[00:12:26\]](#transcript-00-12-26-214) And so we're already thinking in covenantal kinds of terms.

[\[00:12:29\]](#transcript-00-12-29-215) Yeah.

[\[00:12:30\]](#transcript-00-12-30-216) Before we get to the text.

[\[00:12:32\]](#transcript-00-12-32-217) Well, just to interject there, even I think I forget what book I read this in, but it's been a helpful perspective for years now that we read Genesis from the prologue, the Exodus, really, like the children of Israel

[\[00:12:45\]](#transcript-00-12-45-218) were brought out of Egypt before Genesis, it was actually written.

[\[00:12:50\]](#transcript-00-12-50-219) And so God makes a covenant with them.

[\[00:12:53\]](#transcript-00-12-53-220) And then Moses goes, By the way, you probably need to know how this all got started.

[\[00:12:58\]](#transcript-00-12-58-221) So he backs up and he says, Let's start from the beginning.

[\[00:13:01\]](#transcript-00-13-01-222) And so they are already aware of covenantal language and covenant theology because they had entered into a covenant with God after Egypt.

[\[00:13:09\]](#transcript-00-13-09-223) And so I love that's a great perspective.

[\[00:13:11\]](#transcript-00-13-11-224) And I think that's a great observation in that, even like when we talk about authorial intent, or we talk about, you know, what I think it's safe to say, Moses, the author, who received the covenant in Exodus?

[\[00:13:23\]](#transcript-00-13-23-225) Authorial intent would mean he's writing from that perspective when he starts in Genesis.

[\[00:13:27\]](#transcript-00-13-27-226) Yeah, 100%.

[\[00:13:28\]](#transcript-00-13-28-227) Right.

[\[00:13:28\]](#transcript-00-13-28-228) And then it's the Lord, the Lord, the Lord, the Lord.

[\[00:13:31\]](#transcript-00-13-31-229) Well, that's covenantal in and of itself.

[\[00:13:34\]](#transcript-00-13-34-230) Yeah.

[\[00:13:34\]](#transcript-00-13-34-231) And then just one other brief observation leading to Genesis 2:17.

[\[00:13:38\]](#transcript-00-13-38-232) Immediately after reading about how God makes man, then he plants a garden, he puts Adam in the garden.

[\[00:13:44\]](#transcript-00-13-44-233) Immediately, we read about these two trees that are there.

[\[00:13:47\]](#transcript-00-13-47-234) The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, as well as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[\[00:13:52\]](#transcript-00-13-52-235) And we're going to talk about that, I'm sure, at some point, how that's not insignificant.

[\[00:13:56\]](#transcript-00-13-56-236) Because one of the objections raised against this covenant of works as well.

[\[00:14:00\]](#transcript-00-14-00-237) Not so much on the sanction penalty side, that in the day you eat of this, you'll surely die, but there is an objection against the idea that eternal life is held out to Adam if he obeys.

[\[00:14:13\]](#transcript-00-14-13-238) And that tree of life piece is going to be significant there.

[\[00:14:15\]](#transcript-00-14-15-239) But I may be getting a little bit ahead of ourselves.

[\[00:14:17\]](#transcript-00-14-17-240) Okay, Continue on, man.

[\[00:14:19\]](#transcript-00-14-19-241) When I'm speaking with someone who is more of what I would call a biblicist, they want to actually see the word in the text.

[\[00:14:26\]](#transcript-00-14-26-242) I think the low-lying fruit for us is Hosea 6:7 because it's pretty straightforward.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-243) In Hosea 6:7, it says, But like Adam, they transgressed the covenant.

[\[00:14:37\]](#transcript-00-14-37-244) There they dealt faithlessly with me.

[\[00:14:39\]](#transcript-00-14-39-245) So that's a great one to go to.

[\[00:14:42\]](#transcript-00-14-42-246) And I think sometimes we shy away from it because we know that sometimes people say, well, that's not Adam.

[\[00:14:48\]](#transcript-00-14-48-247) It's not the Adam of the Garden.

[\[00:14:50\]](#transcript-00-14-50-248) It's a place, and all this sort of thing.

[\[00:14:52\]](#transcript-00-14-52-249) And I think that's kind of a lame move because that's borrowing from the theological liberals.

[\[00:14:57\]](#transcript-00-14-57-250) Because the people who don't like a historical atom say that kind of stuff.

[\[00:15:01\]](#transcript-00-15-01-251) That's right.

[\[00:15:02\]](#transcript-00-15-02-252) That's true.

[\[00:15:03\]](#transcript-00-15-03-253) So, those of us who believe the Bible is true in a historical Adam, I think we should reclaim the legitimacy of Hosea 6:7.

[\[00:15:11\]](#transcript-00-15-11-254) Adam, yes, he transgressed the covenant.

[\[00:15:14\]](#transcript-00-15-14-255) And I guess we could end the episode because there it is.

[\[00:15:17\]](#transcript-00-15-17-256) Pike drop.

[\[00:15:18\]](#transcript-00-15-18-257) So, all right, Pat, how about that?

[\[00:15:20\]](#transcript-00-15-20-258) Let's pivot slightly and talk about Adam and how he functioned with respect to the entire human race in the garden.

[\[00:15:27\]](#transcript-00-15-27-259) Yes.

[\[00:15:28\]](#transcript-00-15-28-260) In other words, did he represent us all?

[\[00:15:30\]](#transcript-00-15-30-261) And if so, what does that mean for us?

[\[00:15:32\]](#transcript-00-15-32-262) What does that mean regarding this covenant?

[\[00:15:34\]](#transcript-00-15-34-263) Yes, indeed, he did represent us all.

[\[00:15:36\]](#transcript-00-15-36-264) And we know this not just from theologizing, we know it in light of Romans chapter 5 5 Romans 5, 18 and 19 are crucial to this whole to this whole matter.

[\[00:15:46\]](#transcript-00-15-46-265) And if you don't, I'll go ahead and read that so people can hear it.

[\[00:15:50\]](#transcript-00-15-50-266) It says in Romans 5, 18, therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men.

[\[00:15:56\]](#transcript-00-15-56-267) So one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

[\[00:16:00\]](#transcript-00-16-00-268) For as by one man's disobedience, this is really what we want to focus on right now, at least, one man's disobedience, the many, so he's representing the many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience, the many will

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-269) be made righteous.

[\[00:16:15\]](#transcript-00-16-15-270) So, all that legal terminology before God and the court of God, if you will, Adam represented the entire human race, and he, it says, disobeyed.

[\[00:16:25\]](#transcript-00-16-25-271) So through his one act of disobedience, it led to condemnation, opposite of justification.

[\[00:16:31\]](#transcript-00-16-31-272) And so, indeed, what Adam did affected himself, but also it also affected the entire human race.

[\[00:16:38\]](#transcript-00-16-38-273) And so, he, as you said, I think earlier, Justin, him and his posterity, to use the old English.

[\[00:16:46\]](#transcript-00-16-46-274) So, that's why we're in the mess that we're in.

[\[00:16:48\]](#transcript-00-16-48-275) That's why we're under condemnation.

[\[00:16:50\]](#transcript-00-16-50-276) It's why we need justification by faith in the last Adam, 1 Corinthians 15.

[\[00:16:55\]](#transcript-00-16-55-277) So what he did affected himself and it affected everyone else.

[\[00:16:59\]](#transcript-00-16-59-278) So that's why we call it a covenant of works as well.

[\[00:17:02\]](#transcript-00-17-02-279) He was obligated.

[\[00:17:04\]](#transcript-00-17-04-280) He had to do the right thing.

[\[00:17:05\]](#transcript-00-17-05-281) He didn't do the right thing.

[\[00:17:07\]](#transcript-00-17-07-282) He didn't lead the human race into justification.

[\[00:17:09\]](#transcript-00-17-09-283) He led us into condemnation.

[\[00:17:11\]](#transcript-00-17-11-284) It's the bad news.

[\[00:17:12\]](#transcript-00-17-12-285) He's our federal head.

[\[00:17:13\]](#transcript-00-17-13-286) Sometimes covenant theology is called federal theology because of the Latin word just means covenant, which makes me smile when I hear people say, I don't believe in covenant theology.

[\[00:17:24\]](#transcript-00-17-24-287) I believe in federal headship

[\[00:17:27\]](#transcript-00-17-27-288) because it's like saying, I don't like oranges, but I like oranges.

[\[00:17:31\]](#transcript-00-17-31-289) I don't like tangerines.

[\[00:17:33\]](#transcript-00-17-33-290) Right.

[\[00:17:34\]](#transcript-00-17-34-291) Yes.

[\[00:17:35\]](#transcript-00-17-35-292) So, yeah, that's good, man.

[\[00:17:36\]](#transcript-00-17-36-293) And maybe sometimes when you're trying to not, you know, freak people out who are nervous about covenant theology, you say, well, yes, I'm promoting federal headship.

[\[00:17:45\]](#transcript-00-17-45-294) Oh, okay, that's good.

[\[00:17:46\]](#transcript-00-17-46-295) Okay, exactly.

[\[00:17:47\]](#transcript-00-17-47-296) Well, we're just saying covenant headship is what we're talking about.

[\[00:17:50\]](#transcript-00-17-50-297) So, if you're new to Theocast, we have a free e-book available for you called Faith vs.

[\[00:17:58\]](#transcript-00-17-58-298) Faithfulness: a Primer on Rest.

[\[00:18:00\]](#transcript-00-18-00-299) And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a reformed confessional perspective.

[\[00:18:11\]](#transcript-00-18-11-300) You can get your free copy at theocast.org/slash primer.

[\[00:18:18\]](#transcript-00-18-18-301) The Romans 5 piece, like you said, the value of that cannot be overstated.

[\[00:18:23\]](#transcript-00-18-23-302) Because what Paul is establishing there in Romans 5:12 to 21, most pointedly, is the legitimacy of representation.

[\[00:18:31\]](#transcript-00-18-31-303) I mean, really?

[\[00:18:32\]](#transcript-00-18-32-304) I mean, that we were represented by Adam in the garden is very clear.

[\[00:18:38\]](#transcript-00-18-38-305) I mean, and thereby, to be represented by Christ is legitimate.

[\[00:18:43\]](#transcript-00-18-43-306) That's right.

[\[00:18:44\]](#transcript-00-18-44-307) And so that relationship of one to the many is stated over and over again in Romans 5.

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-308) Right.

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-309) And that's what we're contending for: is that being in Adam, this is true for us, and then being united to Christ, being in Christ, this becomes true for us.

[\[00:18:59\]](#transcript-00-18-59-310) Absolutely.

[\[00:19:00\]](#transcript-00-19-00-311) And then when we start now, all of a sudden, when we're off and running and we're looking at other texts, and we hear from Jesus and we hear from the Apostle Paul elsewhere, he keeps going back.

[\[00:19:09\]](#transcript-00-19-09-312) They keep going back to this.

[\[00:19:11\]](#transcript-00-19-11-313) This is a reality that is significant and important.

[\[00:19:14\]](#transcript-00-19-14-314) In one sense, it's the most important reality because we need someone to obey for us, and that would be none other than Jesus.

[\[00:19:22\]](#transcript-00-19-22-315) That's why we have justification.

[\[00:19:24\]](#transcript-00-19-24-316) And so we're already getting into why this is so important.

[\[00:19:28\]](#transcript-00-19-28-317) And so when we hear Jesus speak, go ahead.

[\[00:19:31\]](#transcript-00-19-31-318) No, I was going to say that if you feel lost or like you're not sure about the legitimacy of this conversation, here it is, right here.

[\[00:19:38\]](#transcript-00-19-38-319) So pay close attention because he's coming to the application of the gospel.

[\[00:19:42\]](#transcript-00-19-42-320) So go for it.

[\[00:19:43\]](#transcript-00-19-43-321) Right.

[\[00:19:44\]](#transcript-00-19-44-322) Well, and when it comes to even significance, and I know we're not really getting into that right now, but even the practical importance of all of this.

[\[00:19:51\]](#transcript-00-19-51-323) Maybe later in the episode or the next episode, we can talk about Romans 5:1 to 11.

[\[00:19:57\]](#transcript-00-19-57-324) There's the practical importance of all of this, but right now we're just focusing on the doctrine.

[\[00:20:02\]](#transcript-00-20-02-325) yeah, when we hear about Jesus and Jesus saying things like, do this and you will live in Luke chapter 10, verse 28.

[\[00:20:11\]](#transcript-00-20-11-326) That's covenanted works talk.

[\[00:20:12\]](#transcript-00-20-12-327) That's right.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-328) Jesus is asked, What should we do to gain eternal life?

[\[00:20:16\]](#transcript-00-20-16-329) And as the discussion goes in Luke chapter 10, it's love God with heart, soul, mind, and strength, love your neighbor as yourself.

[\[00:20:23\]](#transcript-00-20-23-330) And Jesus affirms that answer.

[\[00:20:25\]](#transcript-00-20-25-331) He says, You've answered correctly.

[\[00:20:27\]](#transcript-00-20-27-332) Do this, and you will live.

[\[00:20:30\]](#transcript-00-20-30-333) And make sure, you know, dear listeners, that you don't think you will live means you'll have a happy life.

[\[00:20:36\]](#transcript-00-20-36-334) The question was about what should we do to gain eternal life?

[\[00:20:39\]](#transcript-00-20-39-335) Eternal life.

[\[00:20:40\]](#transcript-00-20-40-336) Jesus basically says, do the covenant of works, which they can't do because they're in Adam, but in effect, the principle is still there.

[\[00:20:49\]](#transcript-00-20-49-337) So Jesus also affirmed the covenant of works.

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-338) He didn't use that language, just as Paul didn't use that exact label, but it's for sure in Luke chapter 10, verse 28, when he says, Do this, and you will live.

[\[00:21:03\]](#transcript-00-21-03-339) That's covenant of works talk without question, it is right.

[\[00:21:07\]](#transcript-00-21-07-340) Yeah, and I would just add to that your point: to do this and live.

[\[00:21:10\]](#transcript-00-21-10-341) So, what I love about Romans is he says, For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, right?

[\[00:21:15\]](#transcript-00-21-15-342) We don't stop and ask ourselves, why does Paul use that language, glory of God?

[\[00:21:21\]](#transcript-00-21-21-343) Right?

[\[00:21:21\]](#transcript-00-21-21-344) It's important because if we fell short of God's glory, it's not we just missed the mark.

[\[00:21:26\]](#transcript-00-21-26-345) The point of it is: if we would have done something, not sin, then we would have gained the glory of God.

[\[00:21:32\]](#transcript-00-21-32-346) And what I think he means by that is that being in the presence of God in his glory without sin, perpetually forever.

[\[00:21:39\]](#transcript-00-21-39-347) So if Adam would have obeyed, he would have entered into the glory of God.

[\[00:21:43\]](#transcript-00-21-43-348) This is Hebrews 2:10, right?

[\[00:21:45\]](#transcript-00-21-45-349) Bringing many sons to glory.

[\[00:21:48\]](#transcript-00-21-48-350) Right?

[\[00:21:49\]](#transcript-00-21-49-351) So, if you want to reject the concept of a covenant of works and you want to come up with another title, that's fine, but you can't reject the theology because it's there.

[\[00:21:56\]](#transcript-00-21-56-352) Yes, absolutely.

[\[00:21:58\]](#transcript-00-21-58-353) And I have some sympathy with people because when they hear covenant of works and they're not used to theological language, they think, oh, it can't be works because Ephesians 2 says it's by grace through faith, not by works.

[\[00:22:11\]](#transcript-00-22-11-354) And I understand the knee-jerk reaction, but in reality, somebody has to do the work, somebody has to do the obeying for us to be saved.

[\[00:22:20\]](#transcript-00-22-20-355) And we would say, Jesus does the obeying for us to be saved, but it's not like salvation is by nothing, it's actually by his obedience, his atoning sacrifice.

[\[00:22:30\]](#transcript-00-22-30-356) So I am sympathetic because when people first hear it, they're like, wait a second, that can't be true.

[\[00:22:36\]](#transcript-00-22-36-357) Right.

[\[00:22:37\]](#transcript-00-22-37-358) And in the go ahead, then you have to remind people: Jesus didn't just show up and you know, sit there, Jesus obeyed, and Jesus fulfilled all righteousness, and Jesus died on the cross, and Jesus was raised from the

[\[00:22:48\]](#transcript-00-22-48-359) dead, and Jesus ascended.

[\[00:22:49\]](#transcript-00-22-49-360) And those are things to be done.

[\[00:22:51\]](#transcript-00-22-51-361) He did the things, he did the works.

[\[00:22:54\]](#transcript-00-22-54-362) And then you can see people kind of, you know, put their shoulders down and go, okay, I get it.

[\[00:22:58\]](#transcript-00-22-58-363) I understand.

[\[00:23:00\]](#transcript-00-23-00-364) And what you're talking about there is effectively the covenant of grace, where God the Son took on flesh, fulfilled all the requirements of the law, fulfilled its punishment, right, and conquered death, and conquered the one who has the

[\[00:23:12\]](#transcript-00-23-12-365) power of death, ascended to the right hand of God the Father, and He's coming back.

[\[00:23:16\]](#transcript-00-23-16-366) All of that, He did this.

[\[00:23:17\]](#transcript-00-23-17-367) And then, in the covenant of grace, what He did is given to sin-sick wretches like us, and we receive it by faith.

[\[00:23:24\]](#transcript-00-23-24-368) Absolutely, right?

[\[00:23:25\]](#transcript-00-23-25-369) Yes, absolutely.

[\[00:23:26\]](#transcript-00-23-26-370) it's the obligation of the covenant of grace, and it comes to us freely.

[\[00:23:30\]](#transcript-00-23-30-371) And we use the label covenant of grace because it makes a lot of sense, because it comes to us freely.

[\[00:23:36\]](#transcript-00-23-36-372) So, the covenant of works is called the covenant of works because this covenant, enjoying the covenant blessing, was contingent upon Adam's obedience.

[\[00:23:44\]](#transcript-00-23-44-373) Yes.

[\[00:23:45\]](#transcript-00-23-45-374) So it was contingent upon his works as to whether he would enjoy the blessing or no.

[\[00:23:49\]](#transcript-00-23-49-375) Absolutely.

[\[00:23:50\]](#transcript-00-23-50-376) Absolutely.

[\[00:23:51\]](#transcript-00-23-51-377) A few other things we could talk through as we're just trying to flesh out the covenant of works and its legitimacy for people.

[\[00:23:56\]](#transcript-00-23-56-378) Pat, would love to hear you speak on this, and we can interact over this.

[\[00:24:00\]](#transcript-00-24-00-379) What exactly did God obligate Adam to obey in the garden, if that's a fair question.

[\[00:24:07\]](#transcript-00-24-07-380) Well, if we really want to make it simple, and maybe this isn't where you're going yet, but to be super simple, Adam needed to treat God like God is God.

[\[00:24:17\]](#transcript-00-24-17-381) Okay.

[\[00:24:18\]](#transcript-00-24-18-382) So Adam needed to act like someone in God's image who's a creature.

[\[00:24:22\]](#transcript-00-24-22-383) And so, by obligation, even if it's not stated, he needed to love God with heart, soul, mind, and strength because there's only one God.

[\[00:24:29\]](#transcript-00-24-29-384) That's right.

[\[00:24:30\]](#transcript-00-24-30-385) And so that's what he was obligated to do.

[\[00:24:32\]](#transcript-00-24-32-386) And he was obligated to love other image-bearers, his wife in that particular case, as himself.

[\[00:24:39\]](#transcript-00-24-39-387) So, though it's not stated, that's what God's law requires.

[\[00:24:44\]](#transcript-00-24-44-388) So you just said it.

[\[00:24:45\]](#transcript-00-24-45-389) A piece of the covenant of works is the moral law of God.

[\[00:24:48\]](#transcript-00-24-48-390) Yes.

[\[00:24:48\]](#transcript-00-24-48-391) Yes.

[\[00:24:49\]](#transcript-00-24-49-392) Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself, which summarizes the Ten Commandments.

[\[00:24:53\]](#transcript-00-24-53-393) Yes.

[\[00:24:54\]](#transcript-00-24-54-394) So that's a piece of what Adam was to obey.

[\[00:24:56\]](#transcript-00-24-56-395) In addition, we know that God did give Adam some other what we might call positive laws.

[\[00:25:02\]](#transcript-00-25-02-396) And by positive laws, we just mean things that are not inherently moral or immoral, but the word of God makes them so.

[\[00:25:09\]](#transcript-00-25-09-397) So when he says, most pointedly, the sanction that he puts forward, you're not to eat of this tree.

[\[00:25:16\]](#transcript-00-25-16-398) Well, eating fruit from a tree is not inherently wicked.

[\[00:25:19\]](#transcript-00-25-19-399) But when God's word is attached to it, it becomes sin.

[\[00:25:23\]](#transcript-00-25-23-400) It becomes immoral because you have now transgressed the word of God.

[\[00:25:27\]](#transcript-00-25-27-401) And so the moral law of God, combined with those positive laws, those additional commands, would constitute the terms of the covenant of works, what Adam was obligated to obey.

[\[00:25:37\]](#transcript-00-25-37-402) Fair?

[\[00:25:37\]](#transcript-00-25-37-403) Excellent.

[\[00:25:38\]](#transcript-00-25-38-404) Yep, excellent.

[\[00:25:39\]](#transcript-00-25-39-405) Yep.

[\[00:25:40\]](#transcript-00-25-40-406) Yeah.

[\[00:25:41\]](#transcript-00-25-41-407) And maybe, maybe before we move past this, we could look at some other passages and just, I'm still burdened for people to make sure that they see it in the Bible for themselves because that's what we're setting out

[\[00:25:51\]](#transcript-00-25-51-408) to do.

[\[00:25:52\]](#transcript-00-25-52-409) So I would remind people to even stick to Romans, not just Romans 5, but Romans 10 and Romans 2.

[\[00:25:59\]](#transcript-00-25-59-410) It's the same thing again and again.

[\[00:26:02\]](#transcript-00-26-02-411) And for us to see the legitimacy of Jesus and his work, we have to understand this covenant of works idea.

[\[00:26:08\]](#transcript-00-26-08-412) Romans 10:5 says, The person who does the commandments shall live by them.

[\[00:26:14\]](#transcript-00-26-14-413) It's the do this and live thing.

[\[00:26:16\]](#transcript-00-26-16-414) And maybe at first, when you read Romans 10:5, you might think, I don't know if that's talking about covenant of works.

[\[00:26:21\]](#transcript-00-26-21-415) And then you look a little closer, and even in the margin of your Bible, it'll say, Oh, this is Leviticus 18:5.

[\[00:26:28\]](#transcript-00-26-28-416) Oh, do this and live, Leviticus 18:5.

[\[00:26:31\]](#transcript-00-26-31-417) Well, we know what that means because we have an inspired interpretation of it because Jesus in Luke 10:28, we just looked at it, is quoting Leviticus 18:5, and he says it's about eternal life.

[\[00:26:43\]](#transcript-00-26-43-418) So I don't let the commentaries confuse me, is what I'm saying.

[\[00:26:49\]](#transcript-00-26-49-419) I know what Romans 10:5 is about because it's Leviticus 18:5.

[\[00:26:54\]](#transcript-00-26-54-420) And I know what that's about because Jesus has a commentary on Leviticus 18:5.

[\[00:26:58\]](#transcript-00-26-58-421) It's in Luke 10:28.

[\[00:27:00\]](#transcript-00-27-00-422) And I'm not trying to play, you know, a weird card game and trick people here, but allowing scripture to interpret scripture, and I think Jesus knows about, yes, we're talking about do this and live as in you gain

[\[00:27:13\]](#transcript-00-27-13-423) eternal life.

[\[00:27:15\]](#transcript-00-27-15-424) And when you read Romans 10 in that light, it all makes sense.

[\[00:27:19\]](#transcript-00-27-19-425) And you're like, oh, the Jews, they didn't obey, they didn't see God's law for the daunting law that it is.

[\[00:27:27\]](#transcript-00-27-27-426) So they made up their own laws that they could keep.

[\[00:27:31\]](#transcript-00-27-31-427) And so they never saw their need for Jesus righteousness provided.

[\[00:27:35\]](#transcript-00-27-35-428) Exactly.

[\[00:27:35\]](#transcript-00-27-35-429) And so if you do allow God's law to be the daunting law that it is, that says, do this and live, as in perfectly, personally, and perpetually, you're going to say, I can't do it.

[\[00:27:46\]](#transcript-00-27-46-430) I'm undone.

[\[00:27:47\]](#transcript-00-27-47-431) Woe is me.

[\[00:27:48\]](#transcript-00-27-48-432) I'm damned.

[\[00:27:49\]](#transcript-00-27-49-433) And that's exactly where we want people to be.

[\[00:27:51\]](#transcript-00-27-51-434) So they say, I need righteousness.

[\[00:27:53\]](#transcript-00-27-53-435) I don't have it.

[\[00:27:54\]](#transcript-00-27-54-436) I look outside of myself.

[\[00:27:56\]](#transcript-00-27-56-437) It's provided for me.

[\[00:27:57\]](#transcript-00-27-57-438) That's what Romans 10 is about.

[\[00:27:59\]](#transcript-00-27-59-439) And it's the aha moment.

[\[00:28:00\]](#transcript-00-28-00-440) You're like, this is amazing.

[\[00:28:02\]](#transcript-00-28-02-441) Yeah.

[\[00:28:02\]](#transcript-00-28-02-442) Yeah.

[\[00:28:02\]](#transcript-00-28-02-443) Well, to my dispensational friends who reject this concept, I said, you do believe in the title that is given to Christ as the second Adam.

[\[00:28:12\]](#transcript-00-28-12-444) And they would say, Well, yes, because that's biblical.

[\[00:28:14\]](#transcript-00-28-14-445) He's described as the second Adam.

[\[00:28:16\]](#transcript-00-28-16-446) You then have to ask theologically, why does Paul use that title of Jesus?

[\[00:28:22\]](#transcript-00-28-22-447) Right?

[\[00:28:22\]](#transcript-00-28-22-448) He can't just be saying he's the second perfect man.

[\[00:28:25\]](#transcript-00-28-25-449) There has to be a purpose for it, right?

[\[00:28:27\]](#transcript-00-28-27-450) And then when Paul says in Philippians 3:9, not having a righteousness of my own.

[\[00:28:32\]](#transcript-00-28-32-451) I mean, this is what we're talking about: is that Christ's righteousness that he earned where the second Adam, the first Adam failed, the second Adam succeeds, and that's the righteousness that is not of my own.

[\[00:28:43\]](#transcript-00-28-43-452) And so for me, I think that argument of Adam has that was the thing that kind of like tipped me over the top, going, Well, he has to be the second Adam for a reason, right?

[\[00:28:53\]](#transcript-00-28-53-453) Right, and lots of people I know, even lots of Christians.

[\[00:28:56\]](#transcript-00-28-56-454) I say, Can you tell me what righteous is?

[\[00:28:58\]](#transcript-00-28-58-455) What's righteousness?

[\[00:29:00\]](#transcript-00-29-00-456) They don't know, and I'm not here to scold them, I'm here to help them.

[\[00:29:04\]](#transcript-00-29-04-457) That's why I'm a pastor.

[\[00:29:05\]](#transcript-00-29-05-458) But even pastors, you say, Could you tell me what righteousness means?

[\[00:29:09\]](#transcript-00-29-09-459) Well, they say, Holy, something else, they give you a synonym, yeah, yeah, but that's all very ambiguous and vague.

[\[00:29:16\]](#transcript-00-29-16-460) You know, look it up in a dictionary.

[\[00:29:18\]](#transcript-00-29-18-461) You know, I think I've looked it up in at least 10 dictionaries.

[\[00:29:21\]](#transcript-00-29-21-462) It means adherence to the law.

[\[00:29:23\]](#transcript-00-29-23-463) Yeah.

[\[00:29:23\]](#transcript-00-29-23-464) And so, oh, we, we, we, Christ fulfilled the law for us.

[\[00:29:27\]](#transcript-00-29-27-465) He adhered to the law, and it's credited to us by faith.

[\[00:29:33\]](#transcript-00-29-33-466) So, even basic things like this: covenant of works, it's a covenant of obedience to God's law, and it's broken.

[\[00:29:40\]](#transcript-00-29-40-467) So we need someone else, the last Adam, like you said, Jon, to obey the law so we can have righteousness.

[\[00:29:47\]](#transcript-00-29-47-468) But maybe we're so confused about these kinds of things because we think the law is only in the Old Testament, or we're just talking about Mosaic law, and it simply isn't true.

[\[00:29:56\]](#transcript-00-29-56-469) So, I love the opportunity we have to teach people basic things like this, yeah, because then the light bulb goes off, and you can't unsee it.

[\[00:30:04\]](#transcript-00-30-04-470) it's a great thing.

[\[00:30:06\]](#transcript-00-30-06-471) So, Mike, could you connect?

[\[00:30:08\]](#transcript-00-30-08-472) I'm sorry, Mike.

[\[00:30:08\]](#transcript-00-30-08-473) It's I'm so used to talking to your brother.

[\[00:30:10\]](#transcript-00-30-10-474) Listen, I've been called Mike my whole life by my parents, by my siblings, by my friends, by my enemies.

[\[00:30:16\]](#transcript-00-30-16-475) There you go.

[\[00:30:16\]](#transcript-00-30-16-476) My brother's name is Mark.

[\[00:30:18\]](#transcript-00-30-18-477) It happens to me all the time.

[\[00:30:19\]](#transcript-00-30-19-478) My mom, I'm like, Mom, you're talking to your oldest son right now.

[\[00:30:22\]](#transcript-00-30-22-479) Okay, go ahead, Mark.

[\[00:30:23\]](#transcript-00-30-23-480) Yeah, the um, there's a very important connection because you said righteousness is adherence to the law.

[\[00:30:31\]](#transcript-00-30-31-481) So, can you combine for the listener, real quick, righteousness for Adam would have been adherence to the command not to eat the tree, right?

[\[00:30:40\]](#transcript-00-30-40-482) So, then fulfillment of the moral law.

[\[00:30:42\]](#transcript-00-30-42-483) Right.

[\[00:30:42\]](#transcript-00-30-42-484) so Jesus can't fulfill that, right?

[\[00:30:44\]](#transcript-00-30-44-485) Because that's no longer.

[\[00:30:46\]](#transcript-00-30-46-486) So explain how the Mosaic law kind of is really set up to be the earning of.

[\[00:30:53\]](#transcript-00-30-53-487) Are you even seeing the connection I'm making?

[\[00:30:55\]](#transcript-00-30-55-488) So, I think Jesus fulfilled everything that needed to be fulfilled.

[\[00:30:59\]](#transcript-00-30-59-489) So, he was born under the law, but he's born under the Mosaic law, even.

[\[00:31:03\]](#transcript-00-31-03-490) Exactly.

[\[00:31:04\]](#transcript-00-31-04-491) So, he did so in a generic sense because if you're not a Jew, you're not under that obligation, but also he was born under that system, made it all the more difficult, if you will, also because of all

[\[00:31:16\]](#transcript-00-31-16-492) of the types and shadows, so that he would be the priest and he would be the king and all of those things as well.

[\[00:31:23\]](#transcript-00-31-23-493) But I'm not sure exactly where else you want to go with it.

[\[00:31:26\]](#transcript-00-31-26-494) No, and you're answering my question.

[\[00:31:28\]](#transcript-00-31-28-495) The point of it is that Adam failed to earn righteousness.

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-496) And then God promises to Eve: one is coming to succeed where you failed.

[\[00:31:36\]](#transcript-00-31-36-497) And the question then becomes: it can't be not eating the tree.

[\[00:31:39\]](#transcript-00-31-39-498) What is that then?

[\[00:31:41\]](#transcript-00-31-41-499) And then the Mosaic law becomes the thing that we can observe to go, oh, Jesus earned righteousness for us by this.

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-500) Yes.

[\[00:31:48\]](#transcript-00-31-48-501) Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

[\[00:31:50\]](#transcript-00-31-50-502) JP, I know you had something before we close it down.

[\[00:31:52\]](#transcript-00-31-52-503) A couple of things, yeah.

[\[00:31:53\]](#transcript-00-31-53-504) I mean, even understanding how Matthew and Luke begin their accounts of Jesus and his earthly ministry are significant here.

[\[00:32:01\]](#transcript-00-32-01-505) And you talk about once you see these things, you can't unsee them in the two places out of the tube, for example.

[\[00:32:06\]](#transcript-00-32-06-506) I mean, Matthew 3:15, when Jesus is being baptized by John the Baptist, and John is objecting to, like, I don't know if I should be the one baptizing you and stuff.

[\[00:32:16\]](#transcript-00-32-16-507) And Jesus says, No, it's appropriate that we would do this for what reason?

[\[00:32:18\]](#transcript-00-32-18-508) So that all righteousness might be fulfilled.

[\[00:32:20\]](#transcript-00-32-20-509) That's significant.

[\[00:32:22\]](#transcript-00-32-22-510) Then in Matthew 4 and Luke 4, we have the temptation of Christ in the wilderness, and Satan is the tempter.

[\[00:32:28\]](#transcript-00-32-28-511) And I can't tell you how many times I heard that passage taught.

[\[00:32:31\]](#transcript-00-32-31-512) And the way it was taught was: we, like Jesus, can defeat the evil one using the word of God.

[\[00:32:39\]](#transcript-00-32-39-513) And we, I think, all three would say, okay, secondary application, fine.

[\[00:32:45\]](#transcript-00-32-45-514) But the point of that text is that the new and better Adam is here and that where the old one failed, he was tempted in a paradise with everything going for him and failed.

[\[00:32:56\]](#transcript-00-32-56-515) The second Adam shows up and he's tempted in a wilderness with everything stacked against him and he succeeds.

[\[00:33:02\]](#transcript-00-33-02-516) And it helps us to understand why that's even in the Bible, in the first place.

[\[00:33:05\]](#transcript-00-33-05-517) And this is before he even begins his earthly ministry.

[\[00:33:08\]](#transcript-00-33-08-518) Amen, dude.

[\[00:33:09\]](#transcript-00-33-09-519) It's wonderful.

[\[00:33:10\]](#transcript-00-33-10-520) Get you geeked up.

[\[00:33:11\]](#transcript-00-33-11-521) And Absolutely.

[\[00:33:13\]](#transcript-00-33-13-522) It's a solar, though, when you tell him it's not all about you and overcoming temptation.

[\[00:33:18\]](#transcript-00-33-18-523) That's going to write a book on that one.

[\[00:33:20\]](#transcript-00-33-20-524) Maybe in the members-only portions, we could talk a little bit about some of that stuff.

[\[00:33:24\]](#transcript-00-33-24-525) Yeah.

[\[00:33:24\]](#transcript-00-33-24-526) Last thing, really quickly, guys, if we can.

[\[00:33:27\]](#transcript-00-33-27-527) I just want to touch on this because I would feel irresponsible if we don't.

[\[00:33:30\]](#transcript-00-33-30-528) Sure.

[\[00:33:31\]](#transcript-00-33-31-529) So, the promise of eternal life that's held out to Adam, should he obey?

[\[00:33:36\]](#transcript-00-33-36-530) We've already talked about Romans 5, which I think is pivotal because we see the implication there is that had Adam succeeded, he could have earned this justification for us.

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-531) Yes.

[\[00:33:46\]](#transcript-00-33-46-532) Just because, like, he failed, we were condemned.

[\[00:33:48\]](#transcript-00-33-48-533) So now we needed Christ to obey so that we might be justified.

[\[00:33:53\]](#transcript-00-33-53-534) I think that parallel is significant.

[\[00:33:55\]](#transcript-00-33-55-535) But really briefly, on the tree of life, at least from my perspective, and I'd love to hear what you guys think about this.

[\[00:34:02\]](#transcript-00-34-02-536) So the tree of life is there in the garden, and we're told about it immediately upon Adam being placed in the garden.

[\[00:34:07\]](#transcript-00-34-07-537) And the tree of life shows up in another book of the Bible, and it shows up in Revelation chapter 2 and Revelation 22.

[\[00:34:16\]](#transcript-00-34-16-538) And in Revelation 2:7, this is Jesus' words to the churches.

[\[00:34:21\]](#transcript-00-34-21-539) He says, He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, to the one who conquers.

[\[00:34:26\]](#transcript-00-34-26-540) And by that, I think we would understand to the one who perseveres and trusts in Christ, right?

[\[00:34:30\]](#transcript-00-34-30-541) To the one who conquers, I will grant to eat of the tree of life.

[\[00:34:35\]](#transcript-00-34-35-542) So that's significant, which is in the paradise of God, he says.

[\[00:34:39\]](#transcript-00-34-39-543) And then in Revelation 22, we get the language of the throne of God and how there's this river that flows from the throne through the middle of the street of the city.

[\[00:34:50\]](#transcript-00-34-50-544) And it says, Also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its 12 kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month.

[\[00:34:57\]](#transcript-00-34-57-545) The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

[\[00:34:59\]](#transcript-00-34-59-546) And then he talks of how there will no longer be pain or suffering or any of these things anymore, and how there's no night and there's no need of light or lamp or sun because the Lord God will

[\[00:35:08\]](#transcript-00-35-08-547) be their light and they'll reign forever and ever.

[\[00:35:11\]](#transcript-00-35-11-548) So it's significant that where this tree of life is in the garden with Adam, it shows up again at the end of the story and it's there where eternal life and blessedness away from the presence of sin and

[\[00:35:24\]](#transcript-00-35-24-549) evil forever is the reality.

[\[00:35:27\]](#transcript-00-35-27-550) And so for me, at least, as we think about that tree, I would see that as a covenant symbol that's held out to Adam, where should you obey, this is what awaits you.

[\[00:35:37\]](#transcript-00-35-37-551) Paradise gained.

[\[00:35:38\]](#transcript-00-35-38-552) Paradise gained.

[\[00:35:40\]](#transcript-00-35-40-553) Exactly.

[\[00:35:40\]](#transcript-00-35-40-554) And so the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is present, yes.

[\[00:35:44\]](#transcript-00-35-44-555) And it represents the sanction and the potential penalty of breaking this covenant, whereas the tree of life represents what could be earned.

[\[00:35:50\]](#transcript-00-35-50-556) And I think even at the end of Genesis 3, where 22 to 24, right, where Adam and Eve are expelled.

[\[00:35:58\]](#transcript-00-35-58-557) I mean, it's very strong language, they're thrown out of the garden.

[\[00:36:02\]](#transcript-00-36-02-558) The language is very explicit about how angels, you know, with flaming swords are put there to guard the way to the tree of life.

[\[00:36:09\]](#transcript-00-36-09-559) It's very obvious that Adam no longer has access to this tree because he's broken the covenant.

[\[00:36:15\]](#transcript-00-36-15-560) And now access to the tree of life is going to have to come another way, it's going to have to come by grace through the work of another.

[\[00:36:20\]](#transcript-00-36-20-561) Yes.

[\[00:36:20\]](#transcript-00-36-20-562) Through the words of Christ.

[\[00:36:22\]](#transcript-00-36-22-563) Anyway, those are, I don't know if you guys track with me there.

[\[00:36:24\]](#transcript-00-36-24-564) Do you think, hey, brother, you might want to pick up the breaks, thoughts?

[\[00:36:29\]](#transcript-00-36-29-565) I'm in agreement, but you know, I'll let Pat disagree with you.

[\[00:36:33\]](#transcript-00-36-33-566) I'm a guest on the show, so I like the guest.

[\[00:36:35\]](#transcript-00-36-35-567) I'm in.

[\[00:36:36\]](#transcript-00-36-36-568) Oh my goodness.

[\[00:36:37\]](#transcript-00-36-37-569) We need to get another ultra.

[\[00:36:38\]](#transcript-00-36-38-570) That was a good there.

[\[00:36:39\]](#transcript-00-36-39-571) That was.

[\[00:36:39\]](#transcript-00-36-39-572) Well, we have a lot more to say as it relates to covenant theology and the covenant of works.

[\[00:36:46\]](#transcript-00-36-46-573) We're going to carry that over into our next episode next week.

[\[00:36:48\]](#transcript-00-36-48-574) For us, it'll be in just a few minutes.

[\[00:36:51\]](#transcript-00-36-51-575) But we do a second podcast.

[\[00:36:53\]](#transcript-00-36-53-576) It's a lot of fun.

[\[00:36:54\]](#transcript-00-36-54-577) It's for those who are supporting Theocast monthly donation, and it allows us to produce more content like this: books, and all kinds of stuff.

[\[00:37:02\]](#transcript-00-37-02-578) And if you'd like to participate in supporting our ministry, you can go to theocast.org.

[\[00:37:06\]](#transcript-00-37-06-579) We do a second podcast every week called Semper Reformanda, which means always reforming.

[\[00:37:11\]](#transcript-00-37-11-580) And we're going to have some fun time over there with Pat here in just a minute.

[\[00:37:14\]](#transcript-00-37-14-581) We're going to ask him some questions about some of his favorite books and movies and music and all that good stuff.

[\[00:37:19\]](#transcript-00-37-19-582) He may choose to not answer some of them, and that's fine.

[\[00:37:21\]](#transcript-00-37-21-583) So, but Pat, it's been good to have you with us.

[\[00:37:24\]](#transcript-00-37-24-584) Thank you for joining us this week.

[\[00:37:26\]](#transcript-00-37-26-585) It's been a joy.

[\[00:37:27\]](#transcript-00-37-27-586) Thank you so much.

[\[00:37:28\]](#transcript-00-37-28-587) I appreciate it.

[\[00:37:28\]](#transcript-00-37-28-588) I'm thankful for Theocast.

[\[00:37:30\]](#transcript-00-37-30-589) Yeah.

[\[00:37:30\]](#transcript-00-37-30-590) If you have not checked out the Pactum, I'd encourage you to do so.

[\[00:37:33\]](#transcript-00-37-33-591) You can also listen to all of Mike's sermons.

[\[00:37:36\]](#transcript-00-37-36-592) And if he calls you Mike one more time, man, I don't know.

[\[00:37:38\]](#transcript-00-37-38-593) Good brief.

[\[00:37:39\]](#transcript-00-37-39-594) Wow.

[\[00:37:40\]](#transcript-00-37-40-595) Anyways, pet Mike.

[\[00:37:44\]](#transcript-00-37-44-596) We'll see you guys next week.

[\[00:37:47\]](#transcript-00-37-47-597) You can listen to Mike's sermons too.

[\[00:37:48\]](#transcript-00-37-48-598) They're great.

[\[00:37:49\]](#transcript-00-37-49-599) They're all great.

[\[00:37:49\]](#transcript-00-37-49-600) No Compromise Radio.

[\[00:37:50\]](#transcript-00-37-50-601) Go listen to all of it.

[\[00:37:51\]](#transcript-00-37-51-602) We'll see you next week.

---

### Stop Watching "The Chosen"

*Published: November 30, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/stop-watching-the-chosen*
*Tags: Second Commandment, Sufficiency of Scripture, Worship*

"The Chosen" is a phenomenon in our day. Many people watch it. Many people are passionate about it. It is a polarizing show. Is it a good thing to watch "The Chosen"? Is it wrong to watch it? In today's episode, Jon and Justin aim to have a conversation that goes underneath the specific questions about "The Chosen" and gets to the real issues pertaining to the sufficiency of Scripture, how we are to worship God, the second commandment, and the quest for illegitimate religious experience.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk more openly about the dangers of media like "The Chosen," as well as the potential value of so called "secular" media.

https://youtu.be/pBxfgIC7nWs

---

### The Doctrine Most Missing in the Church

*Published: November 23, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-doctrine-most-missing-in-the-church*
*Tags: Justification*

UPDATED: We were recently contacted by Dr. Steve Lawson's ministry with an update after this episode went live (onepassion.org/statement-on-justification). We are thankful for the update. We were unaware of this update when we recorded this episode. We normally record 4-6 weeks in advance. Justin and Jon's concerns are not fully addressed in this update which is why this video has remained live on our channel.

A video was released by One Passion Ministries in which Steve Lawson answered the question, "What doctrine is most missing in churches today?" His answer was the doctrine of regeneration. While that sounds good, where he went with it was concerning. In the video, Dr. Lawson said that justification by faith alone in Christ alone is, in a sense, just paperwork in heaven--and that it does nothing to change your life. What do we make of that? How should we respond? Jon and Justin have that conversation on today's episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue the conversation around Steve Lawson's comments about justification, the new birth, and the change of life. The guys also talk about reasons for recording an episode like this.  
  
Resources:  
[Steve Lawson's video "What doctrine is most missing in churches today?"](https://youtu.be/BJb1KuIdbbk)  
[Our episode on “The Resting Heart Rate of the Christian Life”](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/the-resting-heart-rate-of-the-christian-life/)  
[Justin’s sermon on Faith Alone, In Christ Alone](https://covbap.org/sermons/faith-alone-in-christ-alone-romans-116-17/)  
  
UPDATE: Statement by Lawson's ministry [onepassion.org/statement-on-justification](http://www.onepassion.org/statement-on-justification)  
  
https://youtu.be/HtxrfYIP71o

---

### The Spirit Will Lead You into All Truth

*Published: November 16, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-spirit-will-lead-you-into-all-truth*
*Tags: Holy Spirit, Sanctification, Truth*

Many Christians in our day are convinced that they can grow in understanding and reach a better knowledge of the truth on their own. The perspective is, "I have the Bible. I have the Holy Spirit. I'm good to go." After all Jesus says the Holy Spirit will lead the disciples into all truth when he comes. That's true. But how does he do this? Jon and Justin examine the Scriptures--that the Holy Spirit inspired--to see how we are grown in our knowledge of the truth.

Semper Reformanda: Jon answers questions submitted by members in today's S|R episode.  
  
Resources:  
[Our episode on "I Just Believe the Bible"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/i-just-believe-the-bible/)  
[Our episode on "Authority Gone Wrong"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/authority-gone-wrong/)  
[Our episode on "Is Your Theological System Any Good?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/is-your-theological-system-any-good/)  
[Our episodes on Law/Gospel Distinction](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/intro-to-law-and-gospel-distinction/)  
[Our episodes on Covenant Theology](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/introduction-to-covenant-theology/)  
  
https://youtu.be/sxcbW\_flwt8

---

### I Just Believe the Bible

*Published: November 9, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/i-just-believe-the-bible*
*Tags: Biblicism*

"I'm just saying what the Bible says." "I just believe the Bible." "That's what the verse says." Have you ever heard people say these things while contending for a theological position that sounds off to you? This practice has a name. It's called biblicism. As Christians, we all want to be people of the Word. The question is whether we are handling the Word correctly. Many people through history have drawn false conclusions by "just reading the Bible" divorced from orthodox theological frameworks. Jon and Justin have a conversation about all of this in today's episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk more about the inherent inconsistency of biblicism, as well as the significance of theological debate through the history of the church.

Resources:  
[Our episode: “Is Your Theological System Any Good?”](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/is-your-theological-system-any-good/ "‌")  
[Our Introduction to Covenant Theology Series](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/introduction-to-covenant-theology/ "‌")  
[Justin’s sermon: “The Promised Gospel of God’s Son”](https://covbap.org/sermons/the-promised-gospel-of-gods-son-romans-11-7/ "‌")  
[”Reexamining the Eternal Sonship of Christ” from John MacArthur](https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A235/reexamining-the-eternal-sonship-of-christ "‌")

https://youtu.be/iq9rsE\_6Vq8

---

### The "Prove Yourself" Gospel

*Published: November 2, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-prove-yourself-gospel*
*Tags: Faith Alone, Obedience*

It is Reformation Week. And here at Theocast, in the tradition of the Reformation, we always seek to clarify the gospel. When we do, people respond in somewhat predictable ways. "Well, you do believe that Christians are required to obey, right?" "Obedience is required for salvation." Are these questions indicative of misunderstanding? How should we respond to these kinds of questions? Jon and Justin double down on union with Christ by faith in today's episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin discuss the vitriol that often meets the clear proclamation of the gospel. The guys talk quite a bit about holiness and how many people's definitions of holiness are off-centered.  
  
Resources:  
[Our episodes on 1 John](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/have-we-missed-the-point-of-1-john-part-1/)  
[Our episodes on Lordship Salvation](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/a-critique-of-lordship-salvation/)  
[Our episode on Easy-Listening Legalism](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/easy-listening-legalism/)  
  
https://youtu.be/nDi7YpXh7Kc

---

### Have We Missed the Point of 1 John? (Part 2)

*Published: October 26, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/have-we-missed-the-point-of-1-john-part-2*
*Tags: Assurance*

In today's episode, the second of two episodes on 1 John, the guys consider some specific passages from the letter that are often used to unsettle Christians and cause them to question their standing in Christ. 1 John 2:3 and surrounding, as well as 1 John 3:4-10, are discussed. How should we understand John's words on keeping the commandments and making a practice of sinning? Should these verses produce fear and doubt?  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin put a bow on the conversation about 1 John. The guys rejoice in the goodness of the letter and contrast that with how it is often taught.  
  
Resources:  
[Justin's sermon series on 1 John](https://covbap.org/4919-2/ "‌")  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50\_dKdCNwtI

---

### Have We Missed the Point of 1 John? (Part 1)

*Published: October 19, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/have-we-missed-the-point-of-1-john-part-1*
*Tags: Assurance*

At Theocast, we get as many questions about 1 John as we do any book in the Bible. It is often a book that has been used to cause Christians to question whether they are really legitimate. But is that the reason John wrote the letter? In today's episode, the first of two episodes on 1 John, Jon and Justin give an overview of the letter and discuss the purpose for which the apostle wrote it.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about how far removed we are from the historical context of 1 John--and why that matters. The guys also reflect further upon the apostle's gentle, pastoral, and reassuring tone in the letter.

Resources:  
[Justin's sermon series on 1 John](https://covbap.org/4919-2/ "‌")

https://youtu.be/r99B\_n-GzRg

---

### Authority Gone Wrong

*Published: October 12, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/authority-gone-wrong*
*Tags: Abuse, Authority, Pastoral Authority*

Fallen human beings have always had issues with authority. And, in a fallen world, authority is often abused. All of this is true in our day--even in the church. In today's episode, Jon and Justin have a conversation about authority, how it can be used well, and how it can be abused. The guys give some particular time to discussing how not to abuse pastoral authority. That part might surprise you.

https://youtu.be/pUzatCxIvFc

---

### My Personal Relationship with Jesus? (w/ Chad Bird)

*Published: October 5, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/my-personal-relationship-with-jesus-w-chad-bird*
*Tags: Relationship with God*

On today's podcast, Jon and Justin have Chad Bird on to discuss the ideology of having a personal relationship with Jesus. Where does this ideology and language come from? Is it helpful? Is it biblical? The guys consider these things and then move on to discuss the fact that the Christian life is inherently corporate and our Christian devotion is church-shaped. Why do we need the church? What is the point of the corporate gathering? (Hint: this has everything to do with our need for Jesus to minister to us and give us his gifts.)  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk in more depth with Chad Bird about a theology of the cross versus a theology of glory--and how these two ways of doing theology manifest themselves in our perspective on church.  
  
Resources:

[Our episode: "Your Sanctification is Not For You"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/your-sanctification-is-not-for-you/)  
[Our episode: "Have We Missed the Point of Church?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/have-we-missed-the-point-of-church/)  
[40 Minutes In The Old Testament from 1517 Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/40-minutes-in-the-old-testament/id960525367)  
[Hidden Streams from 1517 Podcasts](https://www.1517.org/podcasts/hidden-streams)  
[About Chad Bird from 1517 Podcasts](https://www.1517.org/sections/chadbird)

https://youtu.be/G1xIza1A1dQ

---

### Easy-Listening Legalism

*Published: September 28, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/easy-listening-legalism*
*Tags: Faith Alone, Good Works, Works*

Jon and Justin follow up on the conversation last week about smuggling works into faith. Today's episode is a little different than the norm. The guys critique teaching from John Piper, John MacArthur, and Doug Wilson on the relationship between faith and works. Multiple excerpts and quotes are cited, all of which are available in the show notes. The reason for this episode is to defend the clarity of the gospel--that we are saved by Christ alone and receive his merits by faith alone, apart from any works we could ever do.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about the legitimacy of critiquing doctrine that has been publicly taught and distributed. And then, the guys make a number of observations about the ways social and political concerns seem to be the tie that binds in many conservative Christian streams.

Resources:  
[Is DOUG WILSON a FALSE TEACHER?](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/is-doug-wilson-a-false-teacher/)  
[Our episodes on the Law/Gospel Distinction](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/tag/law-gospel-distinction/ "‌")  
[Our episode on "Smuggling Works into Faith"](https://youtu.be/rvZkqxmpa8s "‌")

**Show notes with Quotes:** 

### **What is faith?**

1689 LBCF Chapter 14 - Saving Faith

1. The grace of faith, by which the elect are enabled to believe so that their souls are saved, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts.1 Faith is ordinarily produced by the ministry of the Word.2 By this same ministry and by the administration of baptism and the Lord’s supper, prayer, and other means appointed by God, faith is increased and strengthened.3  
1[2 Corinthians 4:13](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/2%20Cor%204.13); [Ephesians 2:8](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Eph%202.8). 2[Romans 10:14](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%2010.14), [17](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%2010.17). 3[Luke 17:5](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Luke%2017.5); [1 Peter 2:2](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Pet%202.2); [Acts 20:32](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%2020.32).
2. This faith may exist in varying degrees so that it may be either weak or strong.11 Yet even in its weakest form, it is different in kind or nature (like all other saving graces) from the faith and common grace of temporary believers.12 Therefore, faith may often be attacked and weakened, but it gains the victory.13 It matures in many to the point that they attain full assurance through Christ,14 who is both the founder and perfecter of our faith.15  
11[Hebrews 5:13](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Heb%205.13), [14](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews%205.14); [Matthew 6:30](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matt%206.30); [Romans 4:19](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%204.19), [20](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%204.20). 12[2 Peter 1:1](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/2%20Pet%201.1). 13[Ephesians 6:16](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Eph%206.16); [1 John 5:4](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20John%205.4), [5](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20John%205.5). 14[Hebrews 6:11](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Heb%206.11), [12](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews%206.12); [Colossians 2:2](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Col%202.2). 15[Hebrews 12:2](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Heb%2012.2).
1689 LBCF Chapter 11- Justification
1. Those God effectually calls he also freely justifies.1 He does this, not by infusing righteousness into them but by pardoning their sins and accounting and accepting them as righteous.2 He does this for Christ’s sake alone and not for anything produced in them or done by them.3 He does not impute faith itself, the act of believing, or any other gospel obedience to them as their righteousness. Instead, he imputes Christ’s active obedience to the whole law and passive obedience in his death as their whole and only righteousness by faith.4 This faith is not self-generated; it is the gift of God.5  
1[Romans 3:24](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%203.24); [8:30](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%208.30). 2[Romans 4:5–8](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%204.5%E2%80%938); [Ephesians 1:7](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Eph%201.7). 3[1 Corinthians 1:30](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Cor%201.30), [31](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Corinthians%201.31); [Romans 5:17–19](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%205.17%E2%80%9319). 4[Philippians 3:8](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Phil%203.8), [9](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Philippians%203.9); [Ephesians 2:8–10](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Eph%202.8%E2%80%9310). 5[John 1:12](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%201.12); [Romans 5:17](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%205.17).
2. Faith that receives and rests on Christ and his righteousness is the only instrument of justification.6 Yet it does not occur by itself in the person justified, but it is always accompanied by every other saving grace. It is not a dead faith but works through love.7  
6[Romans 3:28](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%203.28). 7[Galatians 5:6](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Gal%205.6); [James 2:17](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/James%202.17), [22](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/James%202.22), [26](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/James%202.26).

### **John Piper**

These works of faith, and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the Spirit that come by faith, are necessary for our final salvation. No holiness, no heaven (Hebrews 12:14). So, we should not speak of getting to heaven by faith alone in the same way we are justified by faith alone. Essential to the Christian life and necessary for final salvation is the killing of sin(Romans 8:13) and the pursuit of holiness(Hebrews 12:14).<https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/does-god-really-save-us-by-faith-alone>Final salvation from future judgment is conditional. It will not happen apart from our persevering faith. … “salvation” refers to our future deliverance from the wrath of God at the judgment and entrance into eternal life.John Piper, Desiring God: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist. Multnomah Books, 1996, 42\. says that on the day of judgment…people will “go away into eternal punishment” because they really failed to love their fellow believers: “As you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me” (Matt. 25:45-46). There is no doubt that Jesus saw some measure of real, lived-out obedience to the will of God as necessary for final salvation.John Piper, What Jesus Demands from the World. Lifeway Press, 2015, 160.Though it may cause confusion, it is possible to use the word “justify” to describe how the fruit of good behavior works in the day of judgment. The fruits can “justify” us in the sense of proving that we are believers and belong to Jesus and have a right standing with God in him. That is how I understand Matthew 12:37, “By your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”What Jesus Demands from the World, 161n. It is not accidental that the title of this book has a double meaning. The Future of Justification draws attention not only to where the doctrine itself may be going, but also to the critical importance of God’s future act of judgment when our justification will be confirmed. How will our obedience function in that Day?John Piper, The Future of Justification: A Response to N. T. Wright. Crossway Books, 2008, 183-184.Present justification is based on the substitutionary work of Christ alone, enjoyed in union with him through faith alone. Future justification is the open confirmation and declaration that in Christ Jesus we are perfectly blameless before God. This final judgment accords with our works. That is, the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives will be brought forward as the evidence and confirmation of true faith and union with Christ. Without that validating transformation, there will be no future salvation.John Piper and N.T. Wright, compiled by Trevin Wax. “The Justification Debate: A Primer.” Christianity Today, June 29, 2009, accessed October 31, 2017,In final salvation at the last judgment, faith is confirmed by the sanctifying fruit it has borne, and we are saved through that fruit and that faith.“Does God Really Save Us by Faith Alone?” https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/does-god-really-save-us-by-faith-aloneAs Tom Schreiner says, the book “tackles one of the fundamental questions of our human condition: how can a person be right with God?”The stunning Christian answer is: sola fide—faith alone. But be sure you hear this carefully and precisely: He says right with God by faith alone, not attain heaven by faith alone. There are other conditions for attaining heaven, but no others for entering a right relationship to God…Such faith always “works by love” and produces the “obedience of faith.” And that obedience— imperfect as it is till the day we die—is not the “basis of justification, but . . . a necessary evidence and fruit of justification.” In this sense, love and obedience—inherent righteousness—is “required of believers, but not for justification”—that is, required for heaven, not for entering a right-standing with God…Thus Schreiner closes his book with a joyful testimony—and I rejoice to join him in it: ”My confidence on the last day . . . will not rest on my transformation. I have too far to go to put any confidence in what I have accomplished. Instead, I rest on Jesus Christ. He is my righteousness. He is the guarantor of my salvation. I am justified by faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.”[Faith Alone: The Doctrine of Justification](http://www.amazon.com/Faith-Alone----Doctrine-Justification-Reformers/dp/0310515785/?tag=bettwowor0e-20), by Thomas Schreiner (September, 2015)

### **John MacArthur** 

MacArthur says of the rich young ruler: "No matter what he believed, since he was unwilling to forsake all, he could not be a disciple of Christ"The Gospel according to Jesus (78)Judas, MacArthur says, "had responded positively to Christ, but never with all his heart." The Gospel according to Jesus (103)“Salvation isn’t the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it’s the fruit of actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile… The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny.”Hard to Believe, page 93"Many people believe justified means "just-as-if-I'd-never-sinned." In other words, God says, "I count you righteous even though you're really not." It is true that God makes that declaration, but there is also a reality of righteousness. We are not only declared righteous; we are made righteous (Justification by Faith, 1988, 98).This making righteous is accomplished by infusing Christ's righteousness into Christians: "God actually credits righteousness to our account. He imputes righteousness to us; he infuses divine life into us. He regenerates and sanctifies us. He makes the unholy holy, and therefore declares that we are righteous.... There is a reality--God gives us righteousness, and thus he can declare that we are righteous" (Justification, 121).MacArthur writes: "The believing sinner is justified by righteousness infused into him" (Justification, 122)."The word justification is a technical term that refers to our legal standing before God: We have been declared to be just because of our faith. But the word also embraces a radical and real transformation. Our moral character has been altered eternally through regeneration. Justification by faith means that God has both declared us righteous and made us righteous. We have been regenerated - made new by faith.... Justification is not only a state of being righteous; it is actual regeneration. We are made righteous by faith" (Justification, 132).This, of course, is the official teaching of the Roman Church. Canon XI of the Council of Trent states:"If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace whereby we are justified is only the favor of God: let him be anathema." Canon XII states: "If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified: Let him be anathema."

### **Doug Wilson**

**Denies the covenant of works**:I believe the covenant of works mentioned in Chapter VII is badly named. I would prefer something like the covenant of life (WLC 20), or the covenant of creation. I believe that this covenant obligated Adam to whole-hearted obedience to the requirement of God. The one stipulation I would add is that, had Adam stood, he would have been required to thank God for His gracious protection and provision. And had Adam stood, he would have done so by believing the Word of God. In other words, it would all have been by grace through faith… he “covenant of works” was not meritorious and we deny that any covenant can be kept without faith.[CREC EXAMINATION, PAGES 1-2, 4](http://federal-vision.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/WilsonExamAnswers.pdf)We deny that law and gospel should be considered as hermeneutics, or treated as such. We believe that any passage, whether indicative or imperative, can be heard by the faithful as good news, and that any passage, whether containing gospel promises or not, will be heard by the rebellious as intolerable demand. The fundamental division is not in the text, but rather in the human heart.[JOINT FEDERAL VISION STATEMENT](https://federal-vision.com/ecclesiology/joint-federal-vision-statement/)**Changing the definition of faith**In the New Testament, obedience is a good word. Also in the New Testament, works is not, unless it is modified with a word like good. We are called to good works ([Titus 2:7](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Titus%202.7) ), but we are not saved by works ([Eph. 2:8-9](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Eph.%202.8-9)).By way of contrast, sinners do not obey the truth ([Rom. 2:8](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom.%202.8)). The Lord is the author of eternal salvation for all who obey Him ([Heb. 5:9](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Heb.%205.9)). All nations are summoned to the obedience of faith ([Rom. 1:5](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom.%201.5)). Obedience is unto righteousness ([Rom. 6:16](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom.%206.16)). Every thought is to be brought to the obedience of Christ ([2 Cor. 10:5](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/2%20Cor.%2010.5)). God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him ([Acts 5:32](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%205.32)). And of course, obedience is an evil thing when it is rendered to the wrong master ([Rom. 6:12](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom.%206.12)), which should be obvious enough. But the bottom line is that simple words obey and obedience should not set off alarm bells for people who read their Bibles.<https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/like-a-gelatinous-pudding.html>Faith is the only instrument God uses in our justification. But when God has done this wonderful work, the faithful instrument does not shrivel up and die. It continues to love God and obey Him. If it does not, but just lies there like a corpse, then we have good reason to believe that it was lying there like a corpse some days before—not being therefore an instrument of justification. Faith without works is a dead faith, and a dead faith never justified anybody.Reformed is not enough (p. 48).The means by which men persevere in the covenant is faithfulness. In other words, to assert that men fall away because their salvation was contingent upon continued faithfulness in the gospel is not to deny the sovereignty of God at all.Wilson, Douglas . Reformed Is Not Enough: Recovering the Objectivity of the Covenant . Canon Press.Because this is the case, James can speak of justification by works. He is not speaking of rabbinical works-righteousness or Pelagian self-salvation or medieval merit theology. Rather, he compares it to the relationship of body and spirit—a living, organic entity.Wilson, Douglas . Reformed Is Not Enough: Recovering the Objectivity of the Covenant . Canon Press.Not bare bones faith. Not assent. Devils have that. True faith is more than assent. We are being accused of denying sola fide because we deny solus assensus. This is the rub, since we’re all affirming this. Why are we heretics because we say faith cannot be separated from trust and obedience, and because we say saving faith cannot be separated from a life of obedience and trust?Douglas Wilson, The Monroe Four Speak Out, 5, 6When asked in the interview, “Doug, when you cite ‘continuing in goodness’ in Rom. 11 in your 2002 lecture, is that the cause of our salvation or the fruit of it?”, Wilson replied:Yes (laughter all around).Look, in Colossians Paul says as you received Christ so walk in him. So the way we become Christians is the way we stay Christians is the way we finish as Christians—by faith from first to last.So we continue in God’s goodness by trust. We stand by faith—they fell, but you stand—doing that to the end is how you come to your salvation. It’s the gift of God lest anyone boast. I believe we are saved by faith from first to last, which is why I have been accused of denying sola fide. Wisdom is vindicated by her children.Christian Renewal,The Monroe Four Speak Out, cited in The Counsel of Chalcedon, Volume 1, May 2004, 38.True faith and works of obedience are never in opposition[TESTIMONY ON THE MARS TESTIMONY](https://dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/testimony-on-the-mars-testimony.html) – Blog articleife and obedience are essential characteristics of the instrumentality of faith[OBEDIENCE UNTO JUSTIFICATION](https://dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/obedience-unto-justification.html) \- Blog articlet is indisputable that works is the animating principle of faith.[FAITH, DEAD OR ALIVE?](https://dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/faith-dead-or-alive.html) \- Blog articleI am treating obedient faith and living faith as synonymous… it is obedient in its life, and in that living condition it is the instrument of our justification.[LIVING FAITH](https://dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/living-faith.html) \- Blog article “14\. Including works (by use of ‘faithfulness,’ ‘obedience,’ etc.) in the very definition of faith .”  
  
No. To include faithfulness in the very nature of living faith is not to intrude works. Faithful faith justifies. Faithless faith does not.[THE OPC REPORT ON THE FEDERAL VISION](https://dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/the-opc-report-on-the-federal-vision.html)Does obedience (in the context of justifying faith) mean works, or does it mean life? If the former, then mixing it into justifying faith is death warmed over. If the latter, then leaving it out is death stone cold.[RECAPITULATION DRIVES OUT GRACE](https://dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/recapitulation-drives-out-grace.html) \- Blog articleThough not ordinarily challenging the terminology of “justification by faith alone,” they have changed the definition of faith and have therefore changed the meaning of “faith alone.”[OPC REPORT ON JUSTIFICATION](https://opc.org/GA/justification.pdf), 26https://youtu.be/vaZMEYSRQ0Q

---

### Smuggling Works into Faith (with Mike Abendroth)

*Published: September 21, 2022 | Author: Nick Boudoin*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/smuggling-works-into-faith-with-mike-abendroth*
*Tags: Faith Alone, Good Works, Works*

Jon and Justin are joined by Mike Abendroth, pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church and host of No Compromise Radio. The guys have a conversation about faith--and, in particular, how works are often smuggled into faith in the evangelical church. How do we appropriately define saving faith? How do we understand the relationship between faith and works? Why is it that obedience, love, and good works are regularly woven into the definition of faith?

Semper Reformanda: Jon, Justin, and Mike talk more pointedly about Federal Vision, Lordship Salvation, final justification, and biblicism. What do all of these have in common? They all, in various ways, smuggle works into faith.

Resources:

[No Compromise Radio Hosts](https://nocompromiseradio.com/about/hosts/ "‌")

[What is the Law?](https://youtu.be/TQj8J8oiBCg "‌")

[Our episode: “Intro to Law and Gospel Distinction”](https://youtu.be/RDjkKGIu0xQ "‌")

[Our episode: “Why I Left Lordship Salvation”](https://youtu.be/thtTV5hv41k "‌")

[Mike Abendroth’s Article: “My Pilgrimage from ‘Lordship’ to Law/Gospel”](https://heidelblog.net/2022/06/my-pilgrimage-from-lordship-to-law-gospel/ "‌")

[Our episode: “Do John Piper and Doug Wilson Obscure Faith Alone?”](https://youtu.be/Z7tlAGv8c3k "‌")

[Mike Abendroth’s Book: ](https://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Assurance-31-Day-Guide/dp/0996819819?keywords=mike+abendroth&qid=1661960618&sprefix=mike+abend,aps,81&sr=8-1&linkCode=sl1&tag=theocast-20&linkId=4dcc7c3669f263845fabb9513ae54f65&language=en%5FUS&ref%5F=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl "‌")[“Gospel Assurance](https://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Assurance-31-Day-Guide/dp/0996819819?keywords=mike+abendroth&qid=1661960618&sprefix=mike+abend,aps,81&sr=8-1&linkCode=sl1&tag=theocast-20&linkId=4dcc7c3669f263845fabb9513ae54f65&language=en%5FUS&ref%5F=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl "‌")”

[Our episode: “A Critique of ](https://youtu.be/9nidOt4Bc5k "‌")

[Lordship Salvation - Part 2”](https://youtu.be/9nidOt4Bc5k "‌")

[Mike Abendroth’s “Law & Gospel” Series on American Gospel](https://www.watchagtv.com/law-gospel-mike-abendroth "‌")

https://youtu.be/rvZkqxmpa8s

---

### I've Never Known Love Like This

*Published: September 14, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/ive-never-known-love-like-this*
*Tags: Love*

We all tend to buy into the world's definition of love. We view love as transactional. And, if we're honest, love is really about our self-gratification. This understanding of love robs us of true joy in our relationships and it robs us of peace before God. The love of God for us is unconditional, sacrificial, and steadfast. We know what love is by looking to God's love for us. And we love because he first loved us. If we understand these things better, our relationships with one another in the church and in our homes will profit. Jon and Justin talk about these things in today's episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue the conversation on love by talking about the necessity of the means of grace in the church. That's right. If you're wondering how these things are connected, give the episode a listen.

Resources:  
[Jon's Sermon on Relationships, Dating, and God’s Love](https://gracereformed.org/media/vp6cvf2/romans-8-31-38-relationships-dating-and-god-s-love "‌")

https://youtu.be/Bku6ihj9MCM

---

### Hard to Forgive

*Published: September 7, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/hard-to-forgive*
*Tags: Forgiveness*

In a fallen world, we sin against others--and we will be sinned against. Sometimes, we are sinned against in ways that are indescribably painful. In today's episode, Jon and Justin talk about forgiveness. It can be hard to forgive those who wrong us. And, yet, the teaching of the Scripture is clear. We are to forgive those who sin against us, as God in Christ has forgiven us. The guys have a compassionate and pastoral conversation about these matters.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk more about forgiveness, the clarity of the Scripture on the matter, and how this is obscured in our day. The guys finish with thoughts about how forgiveness cannot be based upon our assessment of the quality of another person's repentance.

Resources:  
[Our episode on "Repenting of Our Repentance"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/repenting-of-repentance/ "‌")

[Ask Theocast on "What if I'm struggling to forgive? Can I still have assurance?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-if-im-struggling-to-forgive-can-i-still-have-assurance/ "‌")

https://youtu.be/zlagDb9\_S6g

---

### Church, Discernment, and Purity Culture

*Published: August 31, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/church-discernment-and-purity-culture*
*Tags: Church, Discernment, purity culture*

In today's episode, the guys have a conversation about a very sensitive but important topic: sexuality. Over recent years and decades, there have been various approaches to how to handle issues of sexuality in the church. Jon and Justin talk honestly about their concerns regarding crass and crude language that is used to talk about sex--and the abuses of pastoral authority that often occur (e.g., Doug Wilson and Mark Driscoll). The guys also discuss their concerns with purity culture (Joshua Harris comes up here) and the very negative ways sex is portrayed in that kind of setting. There is a better and more biblical approach.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk more about abuses of pastoral authority that occur in the church when it comes to sex in marriage. Then, the guys talk about how we often try to use outside means to address a heart-level problem.

Resources:

[Sexuality, Acceptance, and the Gospel](https://youtu.be/gWpjkyrIltU)

**NOTE: The quotes below are only provided at the request of our listeners. We in no way recommend these articles or books, for they go against the biblical understanding of how one should speak or write about women, marriage, or sexuality.** 

**Quotes from Doug Wilson's blog articles and books:** 

> _“In other words, however we try, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts. This is of course offensive to all egalitarians, and so our culture has rebelled against the concept of authority and submission in marriage. This means that we have sought to suppress the concepts of authority and submission as they relate to the marriage bed.”_

– Douglas Wilson, Fidelity: What it Means to be a One-Woman Man (Moscow, Idaho: Canon Press, 1999), 86-87.

> _"Say a woman — for some egalitarian and very foolish reason, declines to have her dinner date walk her back to her car in some urban center after dark. Let us say she is raped and murdered. According to what RHE says, my response is going to be some variant of “served her right.” Now you would have to be a fool not to see the connection between her refusal of an escort and what happened to her, but you would also have to be pretty vile to say that walking to your car deserves the penalty of rape and murder. You would also have to be pretty high up among Obama’s advisers to falsely accuse someone of being that vile._
> 
> _One consequence of rejecting the protection of good men is that you are opening yourself up to the predations of bad men. I fully acknowledge that this is not what such women think they are doing. They think they are rejecting the patriarchy, or some other icky thing, but when they have walked away from the protections of fathers and brothers, what it amounts to is a tacit (implicit, in principle, not overt) acceptance of the propriety of rape."_

<https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/110222.html>

> _"Next time you are in a grocery store check out line check out (no, I don’t mean check out) the partially dressed female on the cover of the nearest women’s magazine, the kind my kids call a day-old doughnut. Right, the one with the fake bake tan, the abs of a sixteen-year-old boy, the boobs of a wet nurse, and the knock-your-eye out bottle blondisity."_

<https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/bottle-blondisity.html>

> _"That sets the tone, and the pestering is then made complete by small-breasted biddies who want to make sure nobody is using too much hot water in the shower, and that we are all getting plenty of fiber."_

<https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/smash-the-complementarity.html>

> _"My point is that jiggling your boobs for a YouTube clip is a response to an ignorant Muslim that works equally well as a response to the apostle Peter, which is to say, not at all."_

<https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/boobquake-and-the-meaning-of-history.html>

> _"You see the strategy. Minimize the seriousness of this, but not so that you can feel good about indulging yourself. Minimize the seriousness of it so that you can walk away from a couple of big boobs without feeling like you have just fought a cosmic battle with principalities and powers in the heavenly places, for crying out loud. Or, if you like, in another strategy of seeing things rightly, you could nickname these breasts of other woman as the “principalities and powers.” Whatever you do, take this part of life in stride like a grown-up. Stop reacting like a horny and conflicted twelve-year-old boy."_

<https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/dealing-with-nuisance-lust-2.html>

> "So let me tell you what this symbolism really means. This is what _they_ are saying. They are shamelessly declaring to the world that they are just a couple of cunts."

<https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/that-lutheran-jezebel-lady.html>

> _“Stephanie lost her temper completely and totally and shouted at him, “Lionel, I already have a pussy. What made you think I was in need of another one?”_  page 139
> 
> "Ace stood there for just a moment, and then he heard a voice, wafting up from below. “Uhhh. Do it again. Uhhh.Harder, harder.” As Ace walked over to the switch that would activate the compactor, he was nodding his head slowly, and very deliberately. Her voice was fading, but against the dead quiet of the late evening recycling plant, he could still hear it plainly. “Ride me, ride me,” the plaintive voice was saying. “Okay,” Ace said, “ride, Sally, ride,” and he flipped the switch.”'

<https://canonpress.com/products/ride-sally-ride-a-novel/>

> "The first time the dishes are not done, he must sit down with his wife immediately and gently remind her that this is something which has to be done. At no time may he lose his temper, badger her, call her names, etc. He must constantly remember and confess that she is not the problem, he is. By bringing this gently to her attention, he is not to be primarily pointing to her need to repent; rather, he is exhibiting the fruit of his repentance.
> 
> He does this, without rancor and without an accusative spirit, until she complies or rebels. If she complies, he must move up one step, now requiring that another of her duties be done. If she continues to rebel after patient effort, he should at some point call the elders of the church and ask them for a pastoral visit. When the government of the home has failed to such an extent and a godly and consistent attempt by the husband to restore the situation has broken down, then the involvement of the elders is fully appropriate."

Doug Wilson,Federal Husband,Canon Press, 2011,chapter ‘Not Where They Should Be.’

> "Second, wives need to be led with a firm hand. A wife will often test her husband in some area, and be deeply disappointed (and frustrated) if she wins. It is crucial that a husband give to his wife what the Bible says she needs, rather than what she says he needs. So a godly husband is a godly lord."

Wilson, Douglas (2009-04-01). Reforming Marriage (p. 80). Canon Press. KindleEdition.

> "So he must be attractive to you, but you must also have a good understanding of the laws of attraction. If you are not attracted to a guy because he is a milksop, you shouldn’t feel bad about that. You are pleasing God through not being attracted. You are doing your duty. But if there is a guy you actually do respect, but you are not crushing on him, or your heart is not doing a gymnastic floor exercise, and as a result you worry that you are not “attracted,” this means you that probably are misinterpreting the laws of attraction at the deeper level. You are not attracted to a guy you know you could lead around. Goodfor you. But you might think you are not attracted to a guy because you are nervous about where he might lead you. Not so good."

<https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/laws-of-attraction.html>

> "He should be aggressive enough, and well-endowed enough, to satisfy you sexually."

<https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/laws-of-attraction.html>

> "Unbelieving women either compete for the attention of men through outlandish messages that communicate some variation of “easy lay,” or in the grip of resentment they give up the endeavor entirely, which is how we get lumberjack dykes. The former is an avid reader of _Cosmopolitan_ and thinks she knows 15K ways to please a man in bed. The latter is just plain surly about the fact that there even _are_ any men."

https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/on-why-christian-women-are-prettier.html

> "...but who are themselves pushy broads, twinkies in tight tops, or waifs with manga eyes."

https://dougwils.com/the-church/waifs-with-manga-eyes.html?fbclid=IwAR2zTXD3jtwXOje5g1KM5xXEv94ReOhhc1HRdbb\_2XbbLMCfBShBXrEm7Pw

https://youtu.be/45dgb7\_DtzE

---

### When Two Baptists and Two Presbyterians Walk into a Podcast...

*Published: August 24, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/when-two-baptists-and-two-presbyterians-walk-into-a-podcast*
*Tags: Baptists, Guilt Grace Gratitude, Presbyterians*

Jon and Justin recently had the opportunity to be guests on the Guilt Grace Gratitude podcast. In this episode, two Baptists and two Presbyterians talk about confessionalism and the local church. The conversation is wide-ranging, including: confessions of faith, the objective work of Christ and his sufficiency, the law and the gospel, the ordinary means of grace, the mission of the church and the point of the Lord's Day gathering, the sacraments, the effects of revivalism and pietism, and much more.  
  
Resources:  
  
[Guilt Grace Gratitude Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/guilt-grace-gratitude/id1527106099)  
  
[Our episode on Confessionalism](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-confessional)  
  
[What is Reformed Theology?](https://youtu.be/nCna6v28IpI)  
  
https://youtu.be/crYJ0s4YPgg

---

### What Happened to Preaching?

*Published: August 3, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-happened-to-preaching*
*Tags: Means of Grace, preaching*

The guys continue the series on the means of grace by discussing preaching. What has happened to the preaching of the word of Christ? Jon and Justin begin by distinguishing preaching from teaching. Then, they consider the preaching event. It is an event. (Live streams and sermon audio is not preaching.) The guys conclude with a lengthy discussion on the content of preaching. Preaching is to extol and herald the person and work of Christ in the place of sinners, and preaching requires the right dividing of law and gospel.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about some of the critiques that are raised against Christ-centered, redemptive-historical preaching, along with the false dichotomy introduced between grammatical-historical and redemptive-historical approaches to exegesis. (Warning: It's a passionate discussion.)

Resources:  
[Our episode on "Introduction to Law/Gospel Distinction"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/intro-to-law-and-gospel-distinction/ "‌")  
[Our series on Covenant Theology](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/introduction-to-covenant-theology-part-one/ "‌")  
[Our episode on "Is Your Theological System Any Good?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/is-your-theological-system-any-good/ "‌")  
[Our episode on "Legal Preaching"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/legal-preaching/ "‌")  
[Our episode on "Christ-Centered Preaching"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/tag/christ-centered-preaching/ "‌")

https://youtu.be/KuD7GVdyIaY

---

### What Happened to Communion?

*Published: July 27, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-happened-to-communion*
*Tags: Communion, Means of Grace*

The sacrament of communion was given to us by God as a means of His grace. In the Lord's Supper, Jesus is really and spiritually present to minister to us. We are confirmed in the faith and in all the benefits of Christ's death. We are nourished, sustained, and strengthened through receiving the bread and the cup. In other words, the Table is for our assurance and for our growth in the faith. Sadly, this is not how communion is typically talked about in the church. What happened? Why is it not talked about this way? In today's episode Jon and Justin have a theological, historical, and biblical conversation about communion as a means of grace.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin discuss Reformed worship--and communion as a part of that. In addition, the guys give some thoughts regarding churches that do not observe communion regularly.  
  
Resources:  
[Our episode on "What Happened to Baptism?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-happened-to-baptism/)  
[Our episode on "The Resting Heart Rate of the Christian Life"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6BIzl4ca20)  
[Ask Theocast on "What Are the Means of Grace?"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6XJNbq1QAs)  
[1689 LBC 30.1](https://www.the1689confession.com/1689/chapter-30)  
["Truth We Can Touch" by Tim Chester](https://www.amazon.com/Truth-We-Can-Touch-Communion/dp/1433566575)  
[Barcellos's book on the Lord's Supper](https://www.amazon.com/Lords-Supper-Means-Grace-Memory/dp/1781912688)  
  
https://youtu.be/BvlDocddteU

---

### What Happened to Baptism?

*Published: July 20, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-happened-to-baptism*
*Tags: Baptism, Means of Grace*

The sacrament of baptism was given to us by God as a means of His grace. Baptism is about our union with Christ. It is a sign of being grafted into him in his life, death, and resurrection. It is a sign of the remission of our sins. It is a sign of God's promise to keep us unto salvation. Sadly, this is not how baptism is typically talked about in the church. What happened? Why is it not talked about this way? In today's episode Jon and Justin have a theological, historical, and biblical conversation about baptism as a means of grace.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue to discuss baptism as a sign of our union with Christ. In particular, the guys consider how pietism, revivalism, and Arminianism have affected how many have understood union with Christ--and thereby, baptism.

Resources:  
[Our episodes on Lordship Salvation](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/tag/lordship-salvation/ "‌")  
[Our episode "The Resting Heart Rate of the Christian Life"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6BIzl4ca20 "‌")  
[Our episode on "Leaving Pietism"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=%5FUbF22sguOg "‌")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unK42bWBGzo

---

### God's Will Hunting

*Published: July 13, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/gods-will-hunting*
*Tags: God's Will Hunting, Will of God*

In today's episode, the guys talk about God's will. Many Christians agonize over the will of God for their lives. Is there a secret will of God that we are called to discern? Can we make decisions that put us outside the will of God? Has God spoken to what His will is for our lives? Jon and Justin consider these things and more.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue the conversation on the will of God. What do we say to people who fear they have ruined their lives through a past sin?

Resources:  
[Our episode on "Mercy for Those Who Doubt"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/mercy-for-those-who-doubt/ "‌")  
[Our episode "What is Biblicism? Why Is It dangerous?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/biblicists-beware/ "‌")  
[Our episode on "Leaving Pietism"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/leavingpietism/ "‌")

https://youtu.be/QFdHhmVGoJA

---

### I Come to the Garden Alone?

*Published: July 6, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/i-come-to-the-garden-alone*
*Tags: I Come to the Garden Alone, Individualism, Isolation*

The title for today's episode comes from a 20th century hymn. That hymn is illustrative of the common mindset in the evangelical church--that the real stuff of the Christian life happens when we are alone. Is that what the New Testament teaches? How is it that we grow in the faith? How is it that we become mature in Christ? Jon and Justin consider these questions and discuss how the Christian life is inherently corporate, how devotion is church-shaped, and how the corporate realities of the gathered church drive our private lives.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin give some of their perspective on personal time of Bible reading and prayer. What are healthier ways to approach these things? How does the corporate life of the church help us devotional lives?  
  
Resources:  
[Our episode on "How Not to Read Your Bible"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/how-not-to-read-your-bible/)  
[Our episode "Have We Missed the Point of Church?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/have-we-missed-the-point-of-church/)  
[Our episode on "Leaving Pietism"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/leavingpietism/)  
[Our episode on "Your Sanctification Is Not for You?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/your-sanctification-is-not-for-you/)  
[Our "Dazed and Confused" episode on Hebrews 12:1-14](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/dazed-and-confused-hebrews-121-14-and-holiness/)  
  
https://youtu.be/aXycpYjdDXQ

---

### Prayer Requires Righteousness

*Published: June 29, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/prayer-requires-righteousness*
*Tags: Prayer, Righteousness*

This is the second of at least two episodes from James 5\. In James 5:16, the apostle writes that the prayer of a righteous person is effective. This raises the question: is righteousness required for prayer? If so, what kind of righteousness is James talking about? He gives the example of Elijah and how effective his prayers were. How are we to understand that? Jon and Justin discuss all of this--and more in today's podcast.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about positional and personal righteousness. And, the guys go in on pietism and revivalism, in particular, as to how these things have resulted in confusion and have hindered us in approaching God.

Resources:  
[Our episode on "Do John Piper and Doug Wilson Obscure Faith Alone?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/do-john-piper-and-doug-wilson-obscure-faith-alone/)  
[Our episode "Self + Righteousness = Rubbish (Are You Struggling With It?)"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/self-righteousness-rubbish/)  
[Our episode on "Why the Gospel Terrifies Christians"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/why-the-gospel-terrifies-christians/)  
[Our episodes on Lordship Salvation](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/tag/lordship-salvation/)  
[Jon's two sermons on Faith and Healing](https://youtu.be/Rj3ZjmM46Z4)

https://youtu.be/mhdIDzTTuVc

---

### Prayer for Healing

*Published: June 22, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/prayer-for-healing*
*Tags: Healing, Prayer*

This is the first of at least two episodes from James 5\. In James 5:14, the apostle writes that if a person is sick he should have the elders of the church anoint him and pray for him. Then he says that the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. How are we to understand this? What kind of healing is in view? What is the prayer of faith? Jon and Justin consider these questions and more.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk in more depth about interpreting the Bible. They consider tools that help us interpret the Bible, as well as how we should approach debated passages.

Resources:  
[Our episode on James 2](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/faith-without-works-is-dead-james-2/)  
[Our episode "Dying with Dignity"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/dying-with-dignity/)  
[Our episode on "There Will Be Weakness"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/there-will-be-weakness/)  
[Jon's two sermons on Faith and Healing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj3ZjmM46Z4)

https://youtu.be/JEuxJK0Y65s

---

### The Self-Validation Project

*Published: June 15, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-self-validation-project*
*Tags: law gospel distinction, Three Uses of the Law*

In the church, we can struggle to rightly understand and apply the grace of God in Christ. We know we need grace on the front end of salvation, but then, once in, we flip to an economy of merit. And now, we're just collecting stars and earning cookies. It is as though we think that through our working we can retroactively vindicate God's saving of us and turn ourselves into the kind of people God would've been happy to save in the first place. In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about how the Christian life is a project of self-validation for many.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue to consider how a lot of teaching today communicates that the Christian life is a project of validating ourselves as legitimate. The guys talk about the effects of unhealthy introspection, as well as better motivations for Christian living.

Resources:  
[Our episode on James 2 "Faith Without Works Is Dead"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/faith-without-works-is-dead-james-2/)  
[Our episode on "How Pietism Ruins Good Works"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/how-pietism-ruins-good-works/)  
[Our episode on "Leaving Pietism"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/leavingpietism/)

https://youtu.be/1enVzZ9tGuo

---

### Is the Law Relevant Today?

*Published: June 8, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-the-law-relevant-today*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: law gospel distinction, Three Uses of the Law*

In this third of three episodes on God's law, Jon and Justin talk about the threefold division of the law. This conversation is important for anyone who has ever wondered what to make of all the laws God gave to Israel in the Old Testament. What is binding for us today? What is not? What do some of these obscure sounding commands have to do with us in the new covenant era? In short, the confessional, Reformed understanding of the threefold division of the moral, ceremonial, and judicial law is very helpful for our understanding.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin consider the fourth commandment in depth regarding the Sabbath day. There is some division of opinion--even amongst Reformed types--as to what observance of the Lord's Day should look like. The distinction between the moral and ceremonial law is a factor, as is one's understanding of covenant theology.

Resources:  
[Our first episode in this series on Law & Gospel Distinction](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/intro-to-law-and-gospel-distinction/)  
[Our second episode in this series on The Three Uses of the Law](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/intro-to-three-uses-of-the-law/)  
[Our first episode in a series on Covenant Theology](https://youtu.be/iCfzmujnlHo)  
[Our first of three episodes on Implications of Covenant Theology](https://youtu.be/AwajhpDAT6c)

https://youtu.be/55hay4xXgGw 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:05\]](#transcript-00-00-05-1) Hi, this is Jon, and today on Theocast, Justin and I continue our conversation about the law.

[\[00:00:10\]](#transcript-00-00-10-2) We've covered so far: law, gospel, distinction, three uses of the law.

[\[00:00:15\]](#transcript-00-00-15-3) And today we're going to have a discussion about the Bible and the law.

[\[00:00:19\]](#transcript-00-00-19-4) And is the law still relevant today?

[\[00:00:21\]](#transcript-00-00-21-5) Because sometimes we confuse things like judicial, civil, and moral law.

[\[00:00:26\]](#transcript-00-00-26-6) We're going to have a long discussion about the moral law.

[\[00:00:29\]](#transcript-00-00-29-7) And in Semper Reformanda, we're going to talk about the fourth command.

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-8) And does the fourth commandment to keep the Sabbath fit as part of the moral law?

[\[00:00:37\]](#transcript-00-00-37-9) We hope this is edifying and that you learn to love and trust Christ more.

[\[00:00:42\]](#transcript-00-00-42-10) We'll see you soon.

[\[00:00:43\]](#transcript-00-00-43-11) A simple and easy way for you to help support Theocast each month is by shopping at Amazon through the Amazon Smile program.

[\[00:00:49\]](#transcript-00-00-49-12) When you make a purchase through Amazon Smile, a portion of the proceeds will be donated to our ministry.

[\[00:00:54\]](#transcript-00-00-54-13) To learn how to sign up, just go to theocast.org/slash give.

[\[00:01:10\]](#transcript-00-01-10-14) Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

[\[00:01:15\]](#transcript-00-01-15-15) Conversations about the Christian life from a reformed Confessional and pastoral Perspective.

[\[00:01:21\]](#transcript-00-01-21-16) Today, your hosts again are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:01:27\]](#transcript-00-01-27-17) And I'm Jon Moffitt.

[\[00:01:28\]](#transcript-00-01-28-18) I am the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:01:33\]](#transcript-00-01-33-19) And it is good to be here with you today.

[\[00:01:35\]](#transcript-00-01-35-20) Justin, last week, we did a double hitter where we covered law, gospel, distinction, and three uses of the law.

[\[00:01:41\]](#transcript-00-01-41-21) If you didn't hear those, I encourage you to go listen to those because today is going to be a continuation of that conversation.

[\[00:01:48\]](#transcript-00-01-48-22) And so, Justin, I'm going to go ahead.

[\[00:01:50\]](#transcript-00-01-50-23) We're not going to waste any time this morning.

[\[00:01:51\]](#transcript-00-01-51-24) Other than, I will say, for those who want them, we do have Trust Christ and Calm Down shirts back in the store permanently.

[\[00:01:59\]](#transcript-00-01-59-25) So you can get them at any time that you want.

[\[00:02:02\]](#transcript-00-02-02-26) And we also adjusted once one.

[\[00:02:05\]](#transcript-00-02-05-27) No, I've got a shirt.

[\[00:02:06\]](#transcript-00-02-06-28) I want a mug.

[\[00:02:07\]](#transcript-00-02-07-29) You want a mug.

[\[00:02:08\]](#transcript-00-02-08-30) Oh, and we have Trust Christ and Calm Down mugs, which I just ordered a bunch of them because we need to send them out to some of our reformers.

[\[00:02:15\]](#transcript-00-02-15-31) And so, Justin, when we meet up in the next few months, I'll have several for you.

[\[00:02:20\]](#transcript-00-02-20-32) So, all right, my friend, speaking of Trust Christ, and Calm Down, let's talk about the law and how it is that we should understand it and it actually should lead us to rest in Christ.

[\[00:02:31\]](#transcript-00-02-31-33) Take it away.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-34) Word.

[\[00:02:33\]](#transcript-00-02-33-35) Like you said, this is the third episode of three on the law.

[\[00:02:37\]](#transcript-00-02-37-36) So, if you haven't listened to the first two, please go back and do that.

[\[00:02:40\]](#transcript-00-02-40-37) Today's conversation is going to make more sense to you, probably, and it certainly will be more useful and helpful to you if you've already got the law-gospel distinction and the three uses of the law in your mind.

[\[00:02:50\]](#transcript-00-02-50-38) So there's that.

[\[00:02:53\]](#transcript-00-02-53-39) Here we go.

[\[00:02:54\]](#transcript-00-02-54-40) Today, we're going to talk about the law and how it has been understood through history.

[\[00:02:59\]](#transcript-00-02-59-41) And this is a relevant thing to talk about, and the word relevant is in our episode title because I think a lot of Christians, if they're honest, struggle to know what to do with the law.

[\[00:03:08\]](#transcript-00-03-08-42) Because the Bible's a big book.

[\[00:03:10\]](#transcript-00-03-10-43) The book of Moses, the Pentateuch, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, that's a big section of scripture in and of itself.

[\[00:03:16\]](#transcript-00-03-16-44) And there's a lot of words there.

[\[00:03:18\]](#transcript-00-03-18-45) There's a lot of commands, there's a lot of laws, there's a lot written.

[\[00:03:21\]](#transcript-00-03-21-46) And people seem to not know exactly what to make of it, especially now that we live in the new covenant era.

[\[00:03:26\]](#transcript-00-03-26-47) So, you have some people, I mean, I'm talking about Protestant, broad evangelical Christians.

[\[00:03:32\]](#transcript-00-03-32-48) I'm not even talking about sects and weird cultist stuff.

[\[00:03:35\]](#transcript-00-03-35-49) Yeah.

[\[00:03:36\]](#transcript-00-03-36-50) That some people are in the church and they think we need to obey the food laws that are given in the Old Testament.

[\[00:03:42\]](#transcript-00-03-42-51) People are wigging out over whether or not tattoos are permissible now.

[\[00:03:46\]](#transcript-00-03-46-52) People are wondering, you know, if they can wear clothing that has blended fabric and all these kinds of things over here on the one hand, and then on the other hand, you have some people saying that, you know,

[\[00:03:56\]](#transcript-00-03-56-53) nothing that happened in the old covenant, nothing that happened in the old testament, none of those laws or commands have anything to do with us now because it's a new era.

[\[00:04:03\]](#transcript-00-04-03-54) And so here we are.

[\[00:04:04\]](#transcript-00-04-04-55) If it's not written in the New Testament explicitly, we don't even need to worry about it.

[\[00:04:08\]](#transcript-00-04-08-56) Which is what we received a lot of when the third use of the law comes out.

[\[00:04:13\]](#transcript-00-04-13-57) A lot of people give us that criticism: like, why would you ever say there's another use of the law when it's been fulfilled by Christ?

[\[00:04:19\]](#transcript-00-04-19-58) Sure.

[\[00:04:20\]](#transcript-00-04-20-59) So there's just a lot of confusion here.

[\[00:04:23\]](#transcript-00-04-23-60) And we're going to try to clear up some of that today, I guess, is a simple way to put it.

[\[00:04:27\]](#transcript-00-04-27-61) From a confessionally reformed pastoral perspective, historical, confessional, reform perspective, which all means biblical for those of you that are saying, Well, why not the Bible?

[\[00:04:37\]](#transcript-00-04-37-62) Hear us say, Hear us say hear us say biblical, that's right.

[\[00:04:41\]](#transcript-00-04-41-63) And there's a lot of stuff going on on Christian Twitter about how, you know, one like biblicism and confessionalism and stuff, that in some of what's being said, it's actually very good.

[\[00:04:51\]](#transcript-00-04-51-64) And so, to be confessional is simply to be biblical as we understand it.

[\[00:04:54\]](#transcript-00-04-54-65) And so, we're going to have this conversation today.

[\[00:04:57\]](#transcript-00-04-57-66) Historically speaking, confessional reform types have understood that the law of God, like high-level law of God, can be broken down into three parts.

[\[00:05:07\]](#transcript-00-05-07-67) Sometimes this is referred to as the threefold division of the law, sometimes referred to as the tripartite division of the law, tripartite three parts.

[\[00:05:17\]](#transcript-00-05-17-68) What are those three parts?

[\[00:05:19\]](#transcript-00-05-19-69) That's the most important pass we'll get for you.

[\[00:05:21\]](#transcript-00-05-21-70) Maybe.

[\[00:05:22\]](#transcript-00-05-22-71) Wait till SR.

[\[00:05:23\]](#transcript-00-05-23-72) SR today is going to definitely be for the theological types.

[\[00:05:26\]](#transcript-00-05-26-73) That'd be fun.

[\[00:05:27\]](#transcript-00-05-27-74) And if you've ever wondered about the Sabbath command and how to wrestle advertisement early on, as a confessional Baptist for us, but even as a confessional reform person, we're going to talk about some of that in SR.

[\[00:05:37\]](#transcript-00-05-37-75) So, if that's something that interests you, and our view might be controversial.

[\[00:05:41\]](#transcript-00-05-41-76) I don't know if it is or not, but we're going to give it.

[\[00:05:43\]](#transcript-00-05-43-77) Yeah, it is.

[\[00:05:44\]](#transcript-00-05-44-78) There it is.

[\[00:05:45\]](#transcript-00-05-45-79) Hey, good salesmanship, John.

[\[00:05:47\]](#transcript-00-05-47-80) So, three parts of the law: what are they?

[\[00:05:50\]](#transcript-00-05-50-81) One, you have the moral law of God.

[\[00:05:52\]](#transcript-00-05-52-82) So we're going to get into these in more details, but I'm going to give a drive-by flyover definition of these things.

[\[00:05:58\]](#transcript-00-05-58-83) The moral law of God first.

[\[00:06:00\]](#transcript-00-06-00-84) This is the law of comprehensive obedience that was written into Adam's heart in creation.

[\[00:06:05\]](#transcript-00-06-05-85) So it is a significant piece of what we call the covenant of works.

[\[00:06:08\]](#transcript-00-06-08-86) And if you don't know what I'm talking about there, we would refer you to some of our material on covenant theology.

[\[00:06:12\]](#transcript-00-06-12-87) But then that law also was summarized and given by God to his people through Moses and written down on two tablets of stone.

[\[00:06:19\]](#transcript-00-06-19-88) So when you hear moral law, you can think synopsis, 10 commandments.

[\[00:06:23\]](#transcript-00-06-23-89) You also even further could think synopsis of Christ: love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

[\[00:06:28\]](#transcript-00-06-28-90) Love your neighbor as yourself.

[\[00:06:30\]](#transcript-00-06-30-91) That's the moral law.

[\[00:06:32\]](#transcript-00-06-32-92) Second piece of the law in our threefold division or tripartite division of the law would be the ceremonial law that God gave to his people Israel.

[\[00:06:42\]](#transcript-00-06-42-93) So the second and third parts of the law, the ceremonial and then the third, which I'm going to get to in just a minute, were uniquely given to the nation of Israel under the old covenant in a unique

[\[00:06:54\]](#transcript-00-06-54-94) era of redemptive history.

[\[00:06:55\]](#transcript-00-06-55-95) And we're going to unpack more of what that means here in just a minute.

[\[00:06:58\]](#transcript-00-06-58-96) But the ceremonial law are the various laws given by God to Israel pertaining to things like, but not limited to, the sacrificial system, the priesthood, food laws, feast days, etc., Sabbaths, all these things.

[\[00:07:12\]](#transcript-00-07-12-97) We'll talk about that.

[\[00:07:13\]](#transcript-00-07-13-98) There's the ceremonial law.

[\[00:07:15\]](#transcript-00-07-15-99) Finally, the third part of the law was or were the laws given by God to the nation of Israel to govern them.

[\[00:07:23\]](#transcript-00-07-23-100) This is the judicial law, sometimes called the civil law.

[\[00:07:26\]](#transcript-00-07-26-101) So, whenever you read about things about how Israel is to govern itself, how disputes are to be handled within the nation-state, within the geopolitical reality that was old covenant Israel, as established by the covenants God made with Abraham,

[\[00:07:42\]](#transcript-00-07-42-102) Moses, and David, right?

[\[00:07:44\]](#transcript-00-07-44-103) That Israel.

[\[00:07:45\]](#transcript-00-07-45-104) That's the judicial law.

[\[00:07:47\]](#transcript-00-07-47-105) And so we're going to think about those three parts in reverse order now.

[\[00:07:51\]](#transcript-00-07-51-106) So we're going to go back through these, talk about them at more length, try to apply them, try to answer some questions, maybe consider some potential objections, and hopefully, in all of this, encourage us in the Lord Jesus

[\[00:08:01\]](#transcript-00-08-01-107) and what He's done for us.

[\[00:08:02\]](#transcript-00-08-02-108) Right.

[\[00:08:02\]](#transcript-00-08-02-109) So, all of that, John, in like the next 30 minutes or less than, or less than, maybe 28.

[\[00:08:08\]](#transcript-00-08-08-110) Something like that.

[\[00:08:09\]](#transcript-00-08-09-111) Kind of a light lift, right?

[\[00:08:11\]](#transcript-00-08-11-112) Yeah, that's right.

[\[00:08:11\]](#transcript-00-08-11-113) No, that's good.

[\[00:08:12\]](#transcript-00-08-12-114) I think that's a helpful definition.

[\[00:08:14\]](#transcript-00-08-14-115) And for those of you who've been at this far in the podcast, we do find this very relevant.

[\[00:08:19\]](#transcript-00-08-19-116) If you don't understand how the law is to be used, you are going to be lost often in the Old Testament.

[\[00:08:26\]](#transcript-00-08-26-117) And you're going to glance over the Levitical law and why we're going to show you how it's connected to Christ and how it's glorious and wonderful.

[\[00:08:34\]](#transcript-00-08-34-118) So

[\[00:08:36\]](#transcript-00-08-36-119) we make the argument, and we make it because Paul is the one who instructed us to have this argument that all things in the Bible are profitable.

[\[00:08:43\]](#transcript-00-08-43-120) And so we're going to show you how the law in all three areas of how the Bible is expressed is definitely useful and profitable for the believer today, not just the Jewish culture under Israel, but for the believer

[\[00:08:58\]](#transcript-00-08-58-121) today.

[\[00:08:58\]](#transcript-00-08-58-122) So, Justin, well, I guess we'll start in reverse and walk through it.

[\[00:09:03\]](#transcript-00-09-03-123) Yeah, judicial law first.

[\[00:09:04\]](#transcript-00-09-04-124) Yep.

[\[00:09:05\]](#transcript-00-09-05-125) So we'll begin with this.

[\[00:09:06\]](#transcript-00-09-06-126) I've already said it, but I'll just reiterate: the judicial law are those laws God gave to the nation-state, the geopolitical reality called Israel as established by the old covenant.

[\[00:09:18\]](#transcript-00-09-18-127) All of that language is important because we need to realize that the judicial law was given to this nation, to this particular people, established under these particular covenants for a particular season, era of redemptive history.

[\[00:09:31\]](#transcript-00-09-31-128) So I'm not going to bury the lead here.

[\[00:09:33\]](#transcript-00-09-33-129) We understand that when the nation of Israel, as instituted under the old covenant, ceased to be a nation, the judicial law of God was no longer binding on any people group.

[\[00:09:46\]](#transcript-00-09-46-130) That's right.

[\[00:09:47\]](#transcript-00-09-47-131) This is important.

[\[00:09:48\]](#transcript-00-09-48-132) So, in other words, what we're saying: old covenant Israel, as established by the covenants God made with Abraham, Moses, and David ceased to be a nation when Rome ended that nation in the first century.

[\[00:10:02\]](#transcript-00-10-02-133) And we understand that there is a nation called Israel today that was established, you know, a number of decades ago, but that is not the one and the same thing.

[\[00:10:11\]](#transcript-00-10-11-134) That is not Israel as founded by the covenants God made with Abraham and with Moses and with David.

[\[00:10:18\]](#transcript-00-10-18-135) Basically, you're saying the promises made in the old Testament under the covenant of the Old Testament are not the same promises to the nation of Israel today.

[\[00:10:27\]](#transcript-00-10-27-136) Correct.

[\[00:10:28\]](#transcript-00-10-28-137) Yes, I would agree with that.

[\[00:10:29\]](#transcript-00-10-29-138) Correct.

[\[00:10:29\]](#transcript-00-10-29-139) And the laws given to govern Israel under the Old covenant are no longer binding on people today as given.

[\[00:10:38\]](#transcript-00-10-38-140) So the confessions, all the reformed confessions, but we're going to talk about the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which is the one that we subscribe to.

[\[00:10:46\]](#transcript-00-10-46-141) The confessions will use the language of the value now of the judicial law that God gave to Israel is seen in the principles of general equity or the principles of general justice that are contained therein.

[\[00:10:58\]](#transcript-00-10-58-142) So, in other words, to put that in common language, we can look to the laws that God gave Israel to govern that nation state and see the principles of justice and equity that are contained in it.

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-143) And we can glean from that wisdom for how we might order ourselves today in our various nation states and various geopolitical realities, right?

[\[00:11:18\]](#transcript-00-11-18-144) But we do not understand that we are bound by the Bible to draw a straight line from Canaan to California in order to be faithful to God.

[\[00:11:26\]](#transcript-00-11-26-145) Right.

[\[00:11:26\]](#transcript-00-11-26-146) And what you're getting at is something that's been rising lately in the theological world called theonomy.

[\[00:11:34\]](#transcript-00-11-34-147) Oh, yeah.

[\[00:11:35\]](#transcript-00-11-35-148) There it is.

[\[00:11:36\]](#transcript-00-11-36-149) Yeah.

[\[00:11:36\]](#transcript-00-11-36-150) So, which I understand why you're making this clear distinction.

[\[00:11:39\]](#transcript-00-11-39-151) And it is important to understand that no, there is a belief, and we're not going to get into this.

[\[00:11:45\]](#transcript-00-11-45-152) We'll put some recommended podcasts down here.

[\[00:11:47\]](#transcript-00-11-47-153) I know that the Pactum did an excellent job of explaining theonomy.

[\[00:11:50\]](#transcript-00-11-50-154) I know it's on our dock.

[\[00:11:53\]](#transcript-00-11-53-155) We're sliding things over as we're knocking them down.

[\[00:11:56\]](#transcript-00-11-56-156) So we'll eventually get to that for those of you that might be interested.

[\[00:12:00\]](#transcript-00-12-00-157) But it is important to understand promise and fulfillment and purpose, right?

[\[00:12:06\]](#transcript-00-12-06-158) So, just so you understand the purpose of the Old Testament, Israel

[\[00:12:11\]](#transcript-00-12-11-159) had an important role to play in the coming of the Messiah.

[\[00:12:14\]](#transcript-00-12-14-160) And so, God established this nation, protect the nation, put a covenant around the nation for the purpose of bringing us Messiah.

[\[00:12:21\]](#transcript-00-12-21-161) And when Messiah came, the purpose of the nation was fulfilled.

[\[00:12:27\]](#transcript-00-12-27-162) And inside that is a lot of things, not just bringing us the Messiah, it was not their only role, but it was also a type and shadow of a lot of things of our redemption, of the blood atonement

[\[00:12:39\]](#transcript-00-12-39-163) sacrifices, of the structure of the nation of Israel, how it transfers over into some structures in the New Testament.

[\[00:12:46\]](#transcript-00-12-46-164) So there's a role and a purpose here.

[\[00:12:48\]](#transcript-00-12-48-165) The danger is to think that that carries on and that every nation to this day should be governed by the same judicial laws, meaning, like if a man sleeps with another woman other than his wife, he should be

[\[00:13:02\]](#transcript-00-13-02-166) stoned.

[\[00:13:02\]](#transcript-00-13-02-167) That is not to be carried over.

[\[00:13:06\]](#transcript-00-13-06-168) That should not be seen.

[\[00:13:08\]](#transcript-00-13-08-169) And we have a lot of, we can't get into it in this podcast, but there's an important understanding that the judicial law has been fulfilled and done away with.

[\[00:13:16\]](#transcript-00-13-16-170) We are no longer under that.

[\[00:13:17\]](#transcript-00-13-17-171) As Justin says, we can glean from it, and it's helpful for us in the guiding, and it's extremely helpful in understanding the flow and purpose of what we would say the redemption of sinners.

[\[00:13:28\]](#transcript-00-13-28-172) The way I might frame it is: the purpose for which those laws were given has been fulfilled.

[\[00:13:32\]](#transcript-00-13-32-173) That's right.

[\[00:13:33\]](#transcript-00-13-33-174) In that Israel has served its purpose in God's economy of redemption.

[\[00:13:37\]](#transcript-00-13-37-175) And God always intended to use that nation that He established through Abraham called Israel.

[\[00:13:43\]](#transcript-00-13-43-176) He would always use that nation to bless and save the nations.

[\[00:13:47\]](#transcript-00-13-47-177) And so he would save a people, Jew and Gentile, into one body in his son, Jesus Christ.

[\[00:13:54\]](#transcript-00-13-54-178) And Israel was essential in the plan of God in accomplishing that great plan.

[\[00:13:59\]](#transcript-00-13-59-179) But in the judicial laws given to govern the nation of Israel were subservient to that great plan of redemption.

[\[00:14:05\]](#transcript-00-14-05-180) And now that Israel has served its purpose in that plan of redemption, those laws have as well.

[\[00:14:10\]](#transcript-00-14-10-181) That's right.

[\[00:14:11\]](#transcript-00-14-11-182) Yeah.

[\[00:14:11\]](#transcript-00-14-11-183) So that's the judicial law.

[\[00:14:13\]](#transcript-00-14-13-184) There's two podcasts I would recommend here that Justin and Wagon and I will go into this a little bit deeper.

[\[00:14:17\]](#transcript-00-14-17-185) We did one on dispensationalism, which would deal a little bit of this, and then we also did one on premillennialism.

[\[00:14:22\]](#transcript-00-14-22-186) So we'll put those down in the description, but they're going to do a little bit about this fulfillment and why it is that we would hold this view because there is a dispensational view that would kind of talk

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-187) about the reinstatement of Israel and kind of how there's going to be a future here.

[\[00:14:36\]](#transcript-00-14-36-188) And so we're not going to deal with that today, but if you would like more information about those two, they'll be in the link in the description below.

[\[00:14:42\]](#transcript-00-14-42-189) Word.

[\[00:14:43\]](#transcript-00-14-43-190) All right, let's move on.

[\[00:14:44\]](#transcript-00-14-44-191) The next part of the law that we want to consider, having already considered the judicial, we're going to now consider the ceremonial law.

[\[00:14:50\]](#transcript-00-14-50-192) And again, to reiterate, these are the laws God gave to Israel via, you know, in the covenant that He made with Moses and with Israel through Moses, the moderator, the mediator of that covenant, I should say.

[\[00:15:04\]](#transcript-00-15-04-193) These laws have to do with various things.

[\[00:15:07\]](#transcript-00-15-07-194) They have to do with the sacrificial system, the priesthood, the food laws, the feast days, the Sabbaths, years of Jubilee.

[\[00:15:15\]](#transcript-00-15-15-195) I mean, all of the, we could go on and on and on and on.

[\[00:15:18\]](#transcript-00-15-18-196) So there's a lot of them, right?

[\[00:15:20\]](#transcript-00-15-20-197) And this is important.

[\[00:15:22\]](#transcript-00-15-22-198) Again, not to bury the lead here and just to go ahead and say it and get us on an encouraging track.

[\[00:15:28\]](#transcript-00-15-28-199) Read the book of Hebrews and understand, read certain sections in the book of Acts, Acts 10, Acts 11, et cetera, and we come to understand very clearly that the purpose of all of these ceremonial laws, the purpose of

[\[00:15:41\]](#transcript-00-15-41-200) all of the feasts and the sacrificial system and the priesthood and all of this stuff was to point to Christ who would come and fulfill them and accomplish everything that these things were pointing to.

[\[00:15:52\]](#transcript-00-15-52-201) And so we can unashamedly, unequivocally, with joy, say that these laws have been fulfilled and abrogated in the Lord Jesus Christ and are no longer binding for us because the one who is the fulfillment of them has come.

[\[00:16:06\]](#transcript-00-16-06-202) Amen.

[\[00:16:07\]](#transcript-00-16-07-203) Amen.

[\[00:16:07\]](#transcript-00-16-07-204) So, Paul uses this language just to kind of jump onto that, Justin.

[\[00:16:11\]](#transcript-00-16-11-205) Paul uses this language in multiple of his letters called the mystery of Christ.

[\[00:16:15\]](#transcript-00-16-15-206) Sure.

[\[00:16:16\]](#transcript-00-16-16-207) And this would probably be a great example of how many people have read Leviticus and they scratch their head?

[\[00:16:22\]](#transcript-00-16-22-208) Like, man, I don't, it is so strange.

[\[00:16:25\]](#transcript-00-16-25-209) And they get to that part of their Bible reading and they're not quite sure, like, how is it that we're going to handle this?

[\[00:16:30\]](#transcript-00-16-30-210) Multiple times, Paul says that the joy and gift he was given was to make clear that which had not fully been revealed.

[\[00:16:42\]](#transcript-00-16-42-211) Because when we think about a mystery, it's not like God was hiding something from them or doing some kind of like this bait and switch.

[\[00:16:49\]](#transcript-00-16-49-212) It's just they're what we call progressive revelation that over time.

[\[00:16:53\]](#transcript-00-16-53-213) I love the concept of types and shadows.

[\[00:16:56\]](#transcript-00-16-56-214) When you get closer to a shadow and the substance gets closer, or the light gets closer to the substance, then that shadow becomes clear and clear.

[\[00:17:04\]](#transcript-00-17-04-215) And then eventually you just don't need the shadow.

[\[00:17:05\]](#transcript-00-17-05-216) You can look up and see the actual.

[\[00:17:07\]](#transcript-00-17-07-217) Well, that's what Paul is doing.

[\[00:17:09\]](#transcript-00-17-09-218) And he takes a lot of what's happening in the ceremonial, and he explains how these are types and shadows and they're pictures, giving us insight of what's to come.

[\[00:17:21\]](#transcript-00-17-21-219) And the reason why sometimes people understand, like, why, why is it so necessary for us to have all of these civil laws and have all these judicial laws?

[\[00:17:30\]](#transcript-00-17-30-220) When you look at when Christ appears, Jesus Himself, according to His own words and the Apostles, they say the Old Testament law, this includes the five books of the law, right?

[\[00:17:43\]](#transcript-00-17-43-221) The first five books of the Old Testament are they are written about Christ.

[\[00:17:47\]](#transcript-00-17-47-222) So when Jesus shows up on the scene, you can look at the shadow, you look at the substance, and you go, they're one and the same.

[\[00:17:53\]](#transcript-00-17-53-223) We know this is the right guy.

[\[00:17:54\]](#transcript-00-17-54-224) We know it's him.

[\[00:17:55\]](#transcript-00-17-55-225) And so Paul says, This mystery, my responsibility is to point to the Old Testament and then show you that this is the clear path to who Christ is.

[\[00:18:08\]](#transcript-00-18-08-226) If you're new to Theocast, we have a free e-book available for you called Faith vs.

[\[00:18:13\]](#transcript-00-18-13-227) Faithfulness: A Primer Unrest.

[\[00:18:15\]](#transcript-00-18-15-228) And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a reformed confessional perspective.

[\[00:18:26\]](#transcript-00-18-26-229) You can get your free copy at theocast.org/slash primer.

[\[00:18:33\]](#transcript-00-18-33-230) Read a number of things that Paul wrote.

[\[00:18:35\]](#transcript-00-18-35-231) I mean, the letter to the Galatians is a good example here.

[\[00:18:38\]](#transcript-00-18-38-232) I've already mentioned the letter to the Hebrews, but in the whole debate over whether circumcision is a thing in the new covenant, this is part and parcel because circumcision is also a piece of the ceremonial law.

[\[00:18:49\]](#transcript-00-18-49-233) And so, is it something that we need to observe today in order to be faithful to God?

[\[00:18:54\]](#transcript-00-18-54-234) People, I've mentioned this in the podcast in the past.

[\[00:18:56\]](#transcript-00-18-56-235) I'll give another example.

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-236) People read the language, for example, in Exodus 12 about the Passover.

[\[00:19:01\]](#transcript-00-19-01-237) And people say, no, I understand that the law had not yet been given to Moses, but the Passover, along with other feasts, is a piece of the ceremonial law, commands that God gave.

[\[00:19:09\]](#transcript-00-19-09-238) He said, These are statutes to be obeyed forever.

[\[00:19:12\]](#transcript-00-19-12-239) You observe this forever.

[\[00:19:13\]](#transcript-00-19-13-240) And people look at that and they say, See, I mean, we need to be observing the Passover now, don't we?

[\[00:19:17\]](#transcript-00-19-17-241) I mean, God said forever.

[\[00:19:18\]](#transcript-00-19-18-242) That's right.

[\[00:19:19\]](#transcript-00-19-19-243) To which we say, well, we are in multiple senses.

[\[00:19:24\]](#transcript-00-19-24-244) One, in that Christ is our Passover Lamb.

[\[00:19:26\]](#transcript-00-19-26-245) That's right.

[\[00:19:26\]](#transcript-00-19-26-246) He has fulfilled the Passover, and we trust Him Christ.

[\[00:19:30\]](#transcript-00-19-30-247) And in addition, we observe the meal that is a fulfillment of the Passover called the Lord's Supper, which also will be fulfilled anew when the Lord Jesus next drinks of the fruit of the vine.

[\[00:19:42\]](#transcript-00-19-42-248) He's going to do it with us in the new heavens and the new earth in the marriage supper of the Lamb, right?

[\[00:19:47\]](#transcript-00-19-47-249) So we can see how all of these arcs of types and shadows, right, and fulfillment and all that kind of stuff track through scripture.

[\[00:19:54\]](#transcript-00-19-54-250) Right.

[\[00:19:55\]](#transcript-00-19-55-251) And the ceremonial law is that effectively.

[\[00:19:59\]](#transcript-00-19-59-252) Yes.

[\[00:19:59\]](#transcript-00-19-59-253) It was, it was given to teach us about the Savior.

[\[00:20:03\]](#transcript-00-20-03-254) That's right.

[\[00:20:03\]](#transcript-00-20-03-255) And not only about who He would be, but in particular what He would come to do.

[\[00:20:07\]](#transcript-00-20-07-256) That's right.

[\[00:20:08\]](#transcript-00-20-08-257) To make atonement, to cleanse us, to be our mediator, all of these things.

[\[00:20:12\]](#transcript-00-20-12-258) And he's done that.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-259) Right.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-260) And Paul, he uses this as like a completion language.

[\[00:20:18\]](#transcript-00-20-18-261) This is Colossians 1:25, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations, but now revealed to

[\[00:20:28\]](#transcript-00-20-28-262) his saints to them, God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of the mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

[\[00:20:39\]](#transcript-00-20-39-263) So, him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom that we may present everyone mature in Christ.

[\[00:20:45\]](#transcript-00-20-45-264) So, that's the final culmination, right?

[\[00:20:48\]](#transcript-00-20-48-265) So, this stuff is important, and it also has a fulfillment.

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-266) And that's just one example.

[\[00:20:53\]](#transcript-00-20-53-267) Paul he already mentioned, but he talks about this in Ephesians 3, talks about this in 1 Corinthians 2, verses 6 through 10.

[\[00:21:00\]](#transcript-00-21-00-268) The same idea.

[\[00:21:01\]](#transcript-00-21-01-269) So these, these, this, the ceremonies, they're not just kind of this weird thing that God wanted to do for the sake of Israel.

[\[00:21:09\]](#transcript-00-21-09-270) They were mysteriously set up and a mystery, meaning that they didn't fully understand everything of the implications of what was happening.

[\[00:21:18\]](#transcript-00-21-18-271) Many of them didn't even understand that

[\[00:21:21\]](#transcript-00-21-21-272) the final conclusion of this would have reached out to the Gentiles, not just the Jews.

[\[00:21:26\]](#transcript-00-21-26-273) Gentile meaning the rest of the world.

[\[00:21:28\]](#transcript-00-21-28-274) That's right.

[\[00:21:29\]](#transcript-00-21-29-275) Yeah, so I think we've done a decent job there on the ceremonial law.

[\[00:21:31\]](#transcript-00-21-31-276) And the New Testament is very clear that it doesn't so much matter now what we eat or what we drink or all these kinds of things and what days you observe or know.

[\[00:21:39\]](#transcript-00-21-39-277) These matters are at most matters of liberty and freedom, but we're not under this anymore because Christ has fulfilled them and they've been abrogated in him.

[\[00:21:47\]](#transcript-00-21-47-278) Now, we're going to move on to the last part for our consideration of the law.

[\[00:21:52\]](#transcript-00-21-52-279) So, we've talked in reverse order of how I named them at the beginning, we have considered the judicial law, we've considered the ceremonial law, we will now consider the moral law.

[\[00:22:01\]](#transcript-00-22-01-280) So, the moral law is not like the other two in multiple ways, and we're going to try to make this plain.

[\[00:22:06\]](#transcript-00-22-06-281) The moral law, it's critical that we begin with creation.

[\[00:22:09\]](#transcript-00-22-09-282) When God made Adam, He wrote a law of comprehensive obedience into humanity.

[\[00:22:15\]](#transcript-00-22-15-283) So, that law of comprehensive obedience, combined with the positive commands of keep the garden, protect it, fill the earth, and subdue it.

[\[00:22:23\]](#transcript-00-22-23-284) And a particular prohibition: do not eat of this tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[\[00:22:29\]](#transcript-00-22-29-285) That we understand makes up the conditions and the requirements of what we call the covenant of works.

[\[00:22:38\]](#transcript-00-22-38-286) As I said earlier, God would, through Moses, summarize the moral law in 10 commandments, in 10 words that are written down on two tablets of stone.

[\[00:22:50\]](#transcript-00-22-50-287) The first four commands having to do with our love to God, the latter six commands having to do with our love to neighbor.

[\[00:22:56\]](#transcript-00-22-56-288) And Romans 5:12 to 14 is critical for our understanding here, John, because our understanding, along with the confessional reform through history, is that the moral law is transcendent because it existed from creation, it existed before Israel was ever

[\[00:23:12\]](#transcript-00-23-12-289) a thing, it existed before Abraham, right?

[\[00:23:16\]](#transcript-00-23-16-290) So it's different than the judicial and the ceremonial law that was uniquely situated within Israel under the old covenant.

[\[00:23:24\]](#transcript-00-23-24-291) The moral law transcends, and it's a part of the covenant of works, sometimes referred to as the covenant of creation.

[\[00:23:29\]](#transcript-00-23-29-292) And every man from Adam to now and until the world ends is under obligation to keep that law.

[\[00:23:37\]](#transcript-00-23-37-293) And it's obvious that that's true.

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-294) Why?

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-295) Because everybody's dying.

[\[00:23:41\]](#transcript-00-23-41-296) That's right.

[\[00:23:41\]](#transcript-00-23-41-297) The reason everybody's dying is because nobody is keeping that covenant.

[\[00:23:45\]](#transcript-00-23-45-298) Adam broke it, and we died in him, and now we do what Adam did.

[\[00:23:50\]](#transcript-00-23-50-299) And nobody's keeping the covenant, which is why we all die, which is exactly what Paul is pointing out in Romans 5:12 to 14.

[\[00:23:57\]](#transcript-00-23-57-300) Even though the law was not given until Moses, everybody's dying from Adam to Moses because the moral law of God is a thing, and the covenant of works is a thing that everybody is under.

[\[00:24:08\]](#transcript-00-24-08-301) Now, there are multiple things that we're going to talk about here.

[\[00:24:10\]](#transcript-00-24-10-302) We're going to talk about what that means in terms of the moral law and its application.

[\[00:24:14\]](#transcript-00-24-14-303) This relates very much to our three uses conversation last week because we're going to talk about the law and how it guides us, but ultimately we're still going to talk about Christ and how He fulfilled this too, even

[\[00:24:25\]](#transcript-00-24-25-304) though the moral law is still a thing.

[\[00:24:27\]](#transcript-00-24-27-305) That's right.

[\[00:24:28\]](#transcript-00-24-28-306) Well, even in Romans 1 and 2, like, why, why is it that no one is without excuse?

[\[00:24:34\]](#transcript-00-24-34-307) Because what could be revealed has been revealed, as you said, even from Adam to Moses.

[\[00:24:40\]](#transcript-00-24-40-308) Before it was written down in stone, it was written in the heart.

[\[00:24:43\]](#transcript-00-24-43-309) This is what he says in chapter one.

[\[00:24:44\]](#transcript-00-24-44-310) They're without excuse.

[\[00:24:45\]](#transcript-00-24-45-311) Chapter two, even though they were not under the law, the law was still written in their heart, and therefore they're still violating the law.

[\[00:24:51\]](#transcript-00-24-51-312) And he's, and Paul is talking about the moral law here.

[\[00:24:55\]](#transcript-00-24-55-313) And I know that there's confusion because there's a heavy sense where you hear, no, there's no more law.

[\[00:25:01\]](#transcript-00-25-01-314) There's no more law.

[\[00:25:02\]](#transcript-00-25-02-315) And I think it's important to understand that this is, I think, us continuing a little bit of our conversation from last week on the uses of the law, that you have to understand that the law was fulfilled by

[\[00:25:15\]](#transcript-00-25-15-316) Christ.

[\[00:25:16\]](#transcript-00-25-16-317) And this is the obligations of the law.

[\[00:25:20\]](#transcript-00-25-20-318) And one of the obligations is one must do the law in order to prove and earn for themselves righteousness.

[\[00:25:29\]](#transcript-00-25-29-319) I can't help but tie it in here, Justin, real quick.

[\[00:25:31\]](#transcript-00-25-31-320) I think it's going to be helpful.

[\[00:25:32\]](#transcript-00-25-32-321) And then we'll go back to explaining how the moral law works for still today.

[\[00:25:38\]](#transcript-00-25-38-322) In the covenant of works, or you can call it whatever you want, it was said to this: that Adam, if you would have obeyed rightly and not ate of the fruit, something would have happened.

[\[00:25:48\]](#transcript-00-25-48-323) And what we learn from that is he would have entered into the glory of God.

[\[00:25:52\]](#transcript-00-25-52-324) He would have had the right by means of obedience, by the means of righteousness.

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-325) Because when God created Adam, Adam was sinless, but not righteous, right?

[\[00:26:02\]](#transcript-00-26-02-326) Righteousness is the presence of obedience.

[\[00:26:05\]](#transcript-00-26-05-327) It's the presence of something.

[\[00:26:06\]](#transcript-00-26-06-328) It's not the absence of something.

[\[00:26:09\]](#transcript-00-26-09-329) So Adam would have proved his righteousness, or he would have earned righteousness.

[\[00:26:13\]](#transcript-00-26-13-330) He would have earned the right to say, I would have obeyed.

[\[00:26:16\]](#transcript-00-26-16-331) Eternal blessedness.

[\[00:26:17\]](#transcript-00-26-17-332) That's right.

[\[00:26:17\]](#transcript-00-26-17-333) And entered into glory.

[\[00:26:19\]](#transcript-00-26-19-334) This is what the New Testament, but Paul and the writer of Hebrews and in Thessalonians, he talks about how glory is to be in the presence of the Father forever without the potential of sin, without the potential of

[\[00:26:34\]](#transcript-00-26-34-335) death.

[\[00:26:35\]](#transcript-00-26-35-336) So Adam would have entered into that state.

[\[00:26:37\]](#transcript-00-26-37-337) Well, this is one of when it says, Paul says that Christ is the second Adam, it means he did what the first Adam could not do, or we could say the last Adam.

[\[00:26:47\]](#transcript-00-26-47-338) And so he fulfilled the law.

[\[00:26:50\]](#transcript-00-26-50-339) And I think what we would say here is he fulfilled the moral obligations to the law that you and I cannot fulfill, which is to love God and love neighbor perfectly.

[\[00:26:59\]](#transcript-00-26-59-340) Those who are in Christ by faith are no longer under the law as a covenant of works.

[\[00:27:04\]](#transcript-00-27-04-341) That's right.

[\[00:27:05\]](#transcript-00-27-05-342) Meaning, that's the key.

[\[00:27:06\]](#transcript-00-27-06-343) I'll say that again.

[\[00:27:07\]](#transcript-00-27-07-344) Those who are in Christ by faith are no longer under the law as a covenant of works.

[\[00:27:10\]](#transcript-00-27-10-345) What do we mean by that?

[\[00:27:11\]](#transcript-00-27-11-346) We mean what John just said: that Christ, Romans 10:4, is the end of the law for righteousness.

[\[00:27:17\]](#transcript-00-27-17-347) So we do not, in the new covenant, in Christ Jesus, seek to keep the moral law of God for righteousness.

[\[00:27:24\]](#transcript-00-27-24-348) Now, brief caveat: that was never the intention of the moral law to begin with.

[\[00:27:29\]](#transcript-00-27-29-349) And it was only because of confusion that people would have ever thought that they could keep said law for righteousness.

[\[00:27:34\]](#transcript-00-27-34-350) This is, again, is why, again, ceremonial laws, the sacrificial system, the priesthood, all of this was teaching people that they needed atonement and they needed forgiveness and they needed all these things.

[\[00:27:45\]](#transcript-00-27-45-351) And they had all the teaching and shadows to show them that.

[\[00:27:47\]](#transcript-00-27-47-352) Exactly.

[\[00:27:48\]](#transcript-00-27-48-353) And covenant theology is a factor here, too, where this son of David, the righteous branch that God's going to raise up for David, is going to come and execute justice and righteousness in the land and be the one

[\[00:27:58\]](#transcript-00-27-58-354) who is called the Lord as our righteousness, right?

[\[00:28:00\]](#transcript-00-28-00-355) So, all of that's a factor here.

[\[00:28:03\]](#transcript-00-28-03-356) But we do not understand that the moral law is binding upon us in terms of a requirement for righteousness because Christ has fulfilled the moral law in that way.

[\[00:28:12\]](#transcript-00-28-12-357) When he says in Matthew 5:17, that I didn't come to abolish the law and the prophets, but I came to fulfill them.

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-358) And not anything in this law, 5:17 and following, not anything in this law, not a dot, not an iota, should be removed until all is accomplished.

[\[00:28:27\]](#transcript-00-28-27-359) He's meaning there that we ought not take away the moral law in terms of what it says and what its standard is, and all, and how it would guide our living, but he has come to fulfill that.

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-360) That's right.

[\[00:28:39\]](#transcript-00-28-39-361) So that's key in terms of the requirements for righteousness part.

[\[00:28:42\]](#transcript-00-28-42-362) Fulfill righteous, which is the requirement, meaning one must be righteous in order to under this law.

[\[00:28:47\]](#transcript-00-28-47-363) Exactly.

[\[00:28:48\]](#transcript-00-28-48-364) Yeah.

[\[00:28:48\]](#transcript-00-28-48-365) And the only way one can demonstrate righteousness is adhering to the law, not generally, yes, perfectly, perpetually and personally.

[\[00:28:57\]](#transcript-00-28-57-366) There is no forgiveness in the law, meaning that once you fail the righteous requirements of the law, there is no do-overs.

[\[00:29:03\]](#transcript-00-29-03-367) That's why in Adam all died.

[\[00:29:06\]](#transcript-00-29-06-368) Correct.

[\[00:29:07\]](#transcript-00-29-07-369) Right.

[\[00:29:07\]](#transcript-00-29-07-370) And so this is very much tethered to our conversation on the first use of the law that we had last week, where the first and primary use of the law, Galatians 3, Romans 5, other places, is to show

[\[00:29:18\]](#transcript-00-29-18-371) us our sin and our need of Christ and drive us to Him who's our Savior.

[\[00:29:24\]](#transcript-00-29-24-372) So, Christ fulfilled the moral law in our place, John.

[\[00:29:26\]](#transcript-00-29-26-373) That's clear.

[\[00:29:27\]](#transcript-00-29-27-374) We're no longer under it for righteousness.

[\[00:29:28\]](#transcript-00-29-28-375) We're no longer under it in terms of it being a covenant of works that crushes us because Christ has fulfilled his obligations for us.

[\[00:29:36\]](#transcript-00-29-36-376) But we would say, third use of the law that we talked about last week, the moral law exists to guide our living.

[\[00:29:44\]](#transcript-00-29-44-377) Because we would ask ourselves, all right, what does it look like to live in a way that God would say is good?

[\[00:29:49\]](#transcript-00-29-49-378) And what does it look like to live in a way that's good for my neighbor.

[\[00:29:53\]](#transcript-00-29-53-379) How do you know?

[\[00:29:54\]](#transcript-00-29-54-380) That's right.

[\[00:29:55\]](#transcript-00-29-55-381) Well, you know, from the law as given in the moral law in the Old Testament and also as expounded upon in various commands and imperatives in the New Testament.

[\[00:30:06\]](#transcript-00-30-06-382) That's all it is.

[\[00:30:07\]](#transcript-00-30-07-383) Love of God, love of neighbor.

[\[00:30:08\]](#transcript-00-30-08-384) That's all that the imperatives and the commands in the New Testament are: an expounding upon what it looks like in more detail to love God and love neighbor.

[\[00:30:16\]](#transcript-00-30-16-385) Jesus even says this: this is the summation of the law, to love God and love neighbor.

[\[00:30:21\]](#transcript-00-30-21-386) Or even when he says in Galatians 6:2, bear you one another's burdens and fulfill the law of Christ.

[\[00:30:26\]](#transcript-00-30-26-387) Right.

[\[00:30:26\]](#transcript-00-30-26-388) So I think it's important to understand that the law, it does not go away.

[\[00:30:31\]](#transcript-00-30-31-389) And the value of the law does not go away, but the purposes of the law do.

[\[00:30:36\]](#transcript-00-30-36-390) In other words, we do not live under the law in fear of its retribution.

[\[00:30:42\]](#transcript-00-30-42-391) We live under the law, looking to it as saying these are reflections of

[\[00:30:48\]](#transcript-00-30-48-392) the nature and heart of the Father, right?

[\[00:30:51\]](#transcript-00-30-51-393) So we can see that this, because we live in a system, because if you think about most of the law outside of love, God, there are negatives in that and saying, all right, your heart's going to desire another

[\[00:31:00\]](#transcript-00-31-00-394) woman than your wife, but you cannot do that.

[\[00:31:03\]](#transcript-00-31-03-395) Your heart's going to desire the objects of another person and you're going to covet them, but you should not do that.

[\[00:31:08\]](#transcript-00-31-08-396) You're going to be angry in it sometimes almost want to kill, and you're going to want to kill your brother, and you can't.

[\[00:31:13\]](#transcript-00-31-13-397) That's right.

[\[00:31:14\]](#transcript-00-31-14-398) But when we fail in those areas, which 1 John says you will, you're going to fail.

[\[00:31:21\]](#transcript-00-31-21-399) Hebrews 4 says, You can, with boldness, run.

[\[00:31:24\]](#transcript-00-31-24-400) This is where the difference of the law comes in because of the moral law.

[\[00:31:27\]](#transcript-00-31-27-401) It's different in that we can run into the Father's presence and ask for mercy in time of need.

[\[00:31:33\]](#transcript-00-31-33-402) So that doesn't mean that the law isn't like what, just let me ask you this: why, if the law is no longer relevant, why would you run into the presence of the father and ask for mercy, right?

[\[00:31:44\]](#transcript-00-31-44-403) Because you violated the law, right?

[\[00:31:48\]](#transcript-00-31-48-404) you understand what sin is.

[\[00:31:49\]](#transcript-00-31-49-405) That's right.

[\[00:31:50\]](#transcript-00-31-50-406) I mean, Paul says this.

[\[00:31:51\]](#transcript-00-31-51-407) We know what sin is because the law exists.

[\[00:31:53\]](#transcript-00-31-53-408) That's right.

[\[00:31:54\]](#transcript-00-31-54-409) How do you know that you should honor your father and your mother?

[\[00:31:57\]](#transcript-00-31-57-410) Yeah, you intuitively understand these things again because this law is written into you, but you understand explicitly that it's sin to not honor your father and mother because God said so.

[\[00:32:05\]](#transcript-00-32-05-411) You understand that it is wrong in a pointed way to bear false witness about your neighbor because God says so.

[\[00:32:11\]](#transcript-00-32-11-412) And these are all things in your sinful nature that you're naturally going to do because you're naturally self-absorbed and self-interested as a fallen human.

[\[00:32:19\]](#transcript-00-32-19-413) So God has to tell us, in terms of prohibition, don't do these things.

[\[00:32:24\]](#transcript-00-32-24-414) Even though we intuitively know this kind of, because we all have a conscience, because we're made in God's image, and the covenant of works is a thing.

[\[00:32:31\]](#transcript-00-32-31-415) We also need this clear teaching from the scriptures in form of law so that we can look at something and say that's sin.

[\[00:32:38\]](#transcript-00-32-38-416) That's right.

[\[00:32:39\]](#transcript-00-32-39-417) Well, under the old covenant, if they did not abide by the law, they could be kicked out, if not killed, of the community.

[\[00:32:46\]](#transcript-00-32-46-418) Under the new covenant, this is what's so glorious: is that Jesus says, I lose none, right?

[\[00:32:51\]](#transcript-00-32-51-419) We are adopted children.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-420) There's nothing that can separate us from the love of God.

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-421) So we love those passages because they draw us into the heart and protection of the Father, but yet the Father then says, I still, your heart, I mean, this goes back to Romans 7.

[\[00:33:06\]](#transcript-00-33-06-422) Your heart's going to desire things that are contrary to me.

[\[00:33:09\]](#transcript-00-33-09-423) And so this, this guide is still here, this fence is still here to show you this is what's the opposite of who I am.

[\[00:33:16\]](#transcript-00-33-16-424) And this is look at looking, I mean, I love what I love about Hebrews 12, right?

[\[00:33:20\]](#transcript-00-33-20-425) Looking unto Jesus.

[\[00:33:21\]](#transcript-00-33-21-426) Why?

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-427) Because Jesus is the reflection of God, Jesus is God.

[\[00:33:25\]](#transcript-00-33-25-428) So, as we look to Christ, we understand the way in which our heart's desire should be.

[\[00:33:30\]](#transcript-00-33-30-429) And I love that the law just becomes those lines on the road that say, here, this is where you want to stay as you're following Christ.

[\[00:33:38\]](#transcript-00-33-38-430) Not out of fear.

[\[00:33:40\]](#transcript-00-33-40-431) This is the difference, right?

[\[00:33:41\]](#transcript-00-33-41-432) This will be the last thing I have, Justin, I'll throw it over to you.

[\[00:33:44\]](#transcript-00-33-44-433) Not out of fear, but out of gratitude, knowing that as I stay within these lines, right, of my heart and gratitude and lust, all of this, I am doing it knowing that God has liberated me from the consequences

[\[00:33:57\]](#transcript-00-33-57-434) of the law, and I now live under the righteous declaration of Christ.

[\[00:34:02\]](#transcript-00-34-02-435) Amen.

[\[00:34:03\]](#transcript-00-34-03-436) All right.

[\[00:34:03\]](#transcript-00-34-03-437) I want to give a quick summary and just put a bow on this conversation.

[\[00:34:06\]](#transcript-00-34-06-438) If you want some bullet point takeaways.

[\[00:34:09\]](#transcript-00-34-09-439) How should I think about the law?

[\[00:34:11\]](#transcript-00-34-11-440) There are three parts of the law that we've outlined today.

[\[00:34:14\]](#transcript-00-34-14-441) When you read in the Old Testament the judicial civil laws that God gave to the nation of Israel, the way that you should read them is to look at them and glean from them principles of general equity or

[\[00:34:27\]](#transcript-00-34-27-442) general justice that would help us in thinking about how to live together today in a nation-state geopolitical reality kind of way.

[\[00:34:35\]](#transcript-00-34-35-443) Cool.

[\[00:34:36\]](#transcript-00-34-36-444) There's that.

[\[00:34:37\]](#transcript-00-34-37-445) Not ceremonial.

[\[00:34:38\]](#transcript-00-34-38-446) Not obligatory.

[\[00:34:39\]](#transcript-00-34-39-447) Yeah.

[\[00:34:40\]](#transcript-00-34-40-448) But they would be, again, principles of general equity or justice can be gleaned.

[\[00:34:45\]](#transcript-00-34-45-449) That's that.

[\[00:34:46\]](#transcript-00-34-46-450) The ceremonial law, when you read those, I would encourage you, primary takeaway: look at them and ask yourself: what are these things teaching me about what Christ would come and do?

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-451) And then rejoice in the work of your Savior, who came and fulfilled every one of these things, who is your Passover lamb, who is your great high priest, who is the atonement for all of your sins, who took

[\[00:35:11\]](#transcript-00-35-11-452) your sins upon himself like the day of atonement, and also took your sins upon himself and took them away from you as far as the east is from the west.

[\[00:35:19\]](#transcript-00-35-19-453) Who is your Sabbath rest?

[\[00:35:21\]](#transcript-00-35-21-454) Who, all of these things, right?

[\[00:35:23\]](#transcript-00-35-23-455) And now look at those things, understand that they were for a unique purpose in a unique era of redemptive history, and they have been fulfilled in the Lord Jesus.

[\[00:35:32\]](#transcript-00-35-32-456) Consider more of the greatness of his work as you think about the ceremonial law.

[\[00:35:37\]](#transcript-00-35-37-457) Then, finally, when it comes to the moral law of God, I would point one back to the three uses conversation because that's effectively my word here.

[\[00:35:46\]](#transcript-00-35-46-458) Right.

[\[00:35:46\]](#transcript-00-35-46-459) Is look unto Christ who has fulfilled the requirements of the moral law in your place and trust Him.

[\[00:35:52\]](#transcript-00-35-52-460) That's one.

[\[00:35:53\]](#transcript-00-35-53-461) And then secondarily, underneath that, allow the law to guide your living in Christ Jesus as you seek conformity unto it by the Spirit.

[\[00:36:02\]](#transcript-00-36-02-462) Not because it threatens you, not because it condemns you, because it can't in Christ anymore.

[\[00:36:06\]](#transcript-00-36-06-463) But it's good.

[\[00:36:07\]](#transcript-00-36-07-464) The law of God is good.

[\[00:36:08\]](#transcript-00-36-08-465) And so we pursue it in Christ Jesus via our union with Him, by the power of the Spirit, through the ordinary means of grace, all those things, we seek to live in accordance with God's holy and good and

[\[00:36:20\]](#transcript-00-36-20-466) upright law.

[\[00:36:21\]](#transcript-00-36-21-467) Not out of fear.

[\[00:36:22\]](#transcript-00-36-22-468) Not out of faith.

[\[00:36:23\]](#transcript-00-36-23-469) That's right.

[\[00:36:23\]](#transcript-00-36-23-470) Out of faith.

[\[00:36:24\]](#transcript-00-36-24-471) Out of love, joy, and gratitude.

[\[00:36:25\]](#transcript-00-36-25-472) So use the law these ways, understand the law these ways.

[\[00:36:29\]](#transcript-00-36-29-473) And we hope, I know it's been transformative for me and John, but we hope it will be for you too, and that you will feel a greater degree of peace and rest.

[\[00:36:35\]](#transcript-00-36-35-474) And also, just like, oh, okay, like, I know how to read my Bible better now.

[\[00:36:39\]](#transcript-00-36-39-475) And I know how to understand what the Lord has revealed.

[\[00:36:42\]](#transcript-00-36-42-476) And I think I understand better what the Lord has been up to all along.

[\[00:36:44\]](#transcript-00-36-44-477) That's right.

[\[00:36:45\]](#transcript-00-36-45-478) If that's true for you, praise God.

[\[00:36:46\]](#transcript-00-36-46-479) Amen.

[\[00:36:47\]](#transcript-00-36-47-480) Yeah.

[\[00:36:48\]](#transcript-00-36-48-481) Amen.

[\[00:36:48\]](#transcript-00-36-48-482) And to steal my brother's phrase, covenant theology can often help you here in understanding the uses of the law and the divisions of the law.

[\[00:36:55\]](#transcript-00-36-55-483) It's like a compass.

[\[00:36:56\]](#transcript-00-36-56-484) I can drop you in Leviticus, and you're going to know where true north is, which is Christ.

[\[00:37:00\]](#transcript-00-37-00-485) So go and listen to our covenant theology series.

[\[00:37:03\]](#transcript-00-37-03-486) And we have two series on covenant theologies.

[\[00:37:05\]](#transcript-00-37-05-487) We'll put them down.

[\[00:37:06\]](#transcript-00-37-06-488) We have an introduction, and then we have the implications of covenant theology, which helps give you practical applications for those.

[\[00:37:12\]](#transcript-00-37-12-489) Justin, we're about to go into the Semper Reformanda, and there we're going to discuss the fourth commandment, which can be confusing for people: the Sabbath day.

[\[00:37:20\]](#transcript-00-37-20-490) And what does it mean to keep the Sabbath day?

[\[00:37:22\]](#transcript-00-37-22-491) What is our perspective on that?

[\[00:37:25\]](#transcript-00-37-25-492) And there's been a lot of different interpretations through the Reformed, sure, and I would even say through dispensationalists.

[\[00:37:31\]](#transcript-00-37-31-493) So we will try and unpack all that.

[\[00:37:34\]](#transcript-00-37-34-494) Pertaining to the Sabbath, this is a little teaser.

[\[00:37:37\]](#transcript-00-37-37-495) Pertaining to the Sabbath, is it moral law?

[\[00:37:39\]](#transcript-00-37-39-496) Yes.

[\[00:37:41\]](#transcript-00-37-41-497) Are there aspects of it in terms of how many people understand it that are ceremonial?

[\[00:37:45\]](#transcript-00-37-45-498) Yes.

[\[00:37:46\]](#transcript-00-37-46-499) So, what in the world do we do with it?

[\[00:37:48\]](#transcript-00-37-48-500) Stay listen to SR.

[\[00:37:50\]](#transcript-00-37-50-501) If you don't know what SR is, it stands for Semper Reformanda, Semper Reformanda, which means always reforming.

[\[00:37:57\]](#transcript-00-37-57-502) And it's a second podcast, Justin and I do for those who have partnered with our ministry to help further the gospel proclamation.

[\[00:38:05\]](#transcript-00-38-05-503) And if you'd like to learn more about that podcast and our app, which we have an app there and all the different things that go along with our membership, you can go to theocast.org and look that up that

[\[00:38:14\]](#transcript-00-38-14-504) there.

[\[00:38:14\]](#transcript-00-38-14-505) We are so thankful that you took the time to listen to us.

[\[00:38:17\]](#transcript-00-38-17-506) Hopefully, you were encouraged and you were strengthened.

[\[00:38:20\]](#transcript-00-38-20-507) Love your pastor, care for your congregation.

[\[00:38:24\]](#transcript-00-38-24-508) And for those of you in SR, we'll see you next week.

[\[00:38:26\]](#transcript-00-38-26-509) I'm sorry, we'll see you in a minute.

[\[00:38:28\]](#transcript-00-38-28-510) See you next week.

[\[00:38:29\]](#transcript-00-38-29-511) Whatever.

[\[00:38:29\]](#transcript-00-38-29-512) One of those times.

[\[00:38:31\]](#transcript-00-38-31-513) Bye.

---

### Intro to Three Uses of the Law

*Published: June 1, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/intro-to-three-uses-of-the-law*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: law gospel distinction, Three Uses of the Law*

In this second of three episodes on God's law, Jon and Justin talk about the three uses of the law. In considering the three uses of the law, we are essentially answering the question, "Why did God give the law?" The first use of the law is to show us our sin and drive us to Christ. The second use is to teach all men right and wrong--and to restrain our corruption. The third use is to serve as the guide for our living in Christ. Without these uses in view, we are prone to make all kinds of errors in our application and understanding of God's law.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin consider how the uses of the law are often collapsed in our day and the resulting fallout of this confusion. In contending for the uses of the law, we are simply seeking to use the law lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8).

Resources:

[First episode in this series: "Intro to Law and Gospel Distinction"](https://youtu.be/RDjkKGIu0xQ)  
[Our episode on "What Must I Do to Be Saved?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-must-i-do-to-be-saved/)  
[Our episode on "John Piper on Holiness"](https://youtu.be/Recw%5FsMjZ8g)  
[Our episode on "Following Jesus Is Not the Gospel"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/following-jesus-is-not-the-gospel/)  
[Our episode on "Faith Without Works is Dead: James 2"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/faith-without-works-is-dead-james-2/)

https://youtu.be/AG-ZMlbZ4Fg 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:05\]](#transcript-00-00-05-1) Hi, this is Jon.

[\[00:00:06\]](#transcript-00-00-06-2) And today on Theocast, Justin and I are continuing our conversation on understanding the law from a biblical perspective.

[\[00:00:12\]](#transcript-00-00-12-3) Last week we did the law and the gospel distinction, and today we're talking about the three uses of the law.

[\[00:00:19\]](#transcript-00-00-19-4) And this is important to understand because we often collapse the first and third use, meaning that we treat the believer as if they're an unbeliever and we call their salvation into question.

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-5) So it is really important that we understand biblically the three different ways the Bible uses the law and that we use them rightly.

[\[00:00:40\]](#transcript-00-00-40-6) We hope this is encouraging for you.

[\[00:00:42\]](#transcript-00-00-42-7) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:42\]](#transcript-00-00-42-8) If you'd like to help support Theocast, you can do that by leaving us a review on iTunes and subscribing on your favorite podcast app.

[\[00:00:50\]](#transcript-00-00-50-9) You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

[\[00:00:53\]](#transcript-00-00-53-10) Plus, we have a Facebook group if you'd like to join the conversation there.

[\[00:00:57\]](#transcript-00-00-57-11) Thanks for listening.

[\[00:01:09\]](#transcript-00-01-09-12) Welcome to Theocast, Encouraging Weary Pilgrims to Rest in Christ: Conversations about the Christian Life from a Reformed Confessional and Pastoral Perspective.

[\[00:01:19\]](#transcript-00-01-19-13) Today, your hosts are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina, and I'm Jon Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:01:28\]](#transcript-00-01-28-14) This is part two of a series that we're doing on the law, and if you've not heard part one, you can go back and hear that's law and gospel.

[\[00:01:36\]](#transcript-00-01-36-15) Today, we're going to be talking about the three uses of the law.

[\[00:01:40\]](#transcript-00-01-40-16) And so, this is a little bit different for Justin and I.

[\[00:01:42\]](#transcript-00-01-42-17) We normally do one episode per week, we do one regular and one SR, but today we're going to double up and do two just to try and get caught up and ready for the summer.

[\[00:01:50\]](#transcript-00-01-50-18) In that case, Justin, go ahead and just jump right into it, my friend.

[\[00:01:54\]](#transcript-00-01-54-19) John, we're on the efficiency train today, man.

[\[00:01:56\]](#transcript-00-01-56-20) That's right.

[\[00:01:57\]](#transcript-00-01-57-21) We are absolutely slinging it.

[\[00:01:59\]](#transcript-00-01-59-22) All right.

[\[00:01:59\]](#transcript-00-01-59-23) In terms of podcast content, trying to create it.

[\[00:02:02\]](#transcript-00-02-02-24) Hopefully it's encouraging for people.

[\[00:02:03\]](#transcript-00-02-03-25) All right.

[\[00:02:04\]](#transcript-00-02-04-26) Yes.

[\[00:02:04\]](#transcript-00-02-04-27) So the three uses of the law, just to tee up this conversation for us, and then we're off and running.

[\[00:02:10\]](#transcript-00-02-10-28) You maybe have never heard of these categories.

[\[00:02:12\]](#transcript-00-02-12-29) If you haven't, this podcast is for you.

[\[00:02:14\]](#transcript-00-02-14-30) If you have heard of the uses of the law, we hope you're encouraged.

[\[00:02:17\]](#transcript-00-02-17-31) So, there is, just go ahead and caveat this and just sort of footnote here before we begin.

[\[00:02:22\]](#transcript-00-02-22-32) Depending on which tradition in the Lutheran or Reform streams that you are a part of, there might be a difference in number one and number two in terms of the first and second use of the law.

[\[00:02:34\]](#transcript-00-02-34-33) Pretty much everybody agrees on the third use piece.

[\[00:02:36\]](#transcript-00-02-36-34) So, just I'm acknowledging that reality out of the gate before I lay out use one, two, and three as we understand it.

[\[00:02:43\]](#transcript-00-02-43-35) And I would say, just give a brief explanation of why this distinction is so important before you give them.

[\[00:02:50\]](#transcript-00-02-50-36) In terms of the uses of the laws, of the law themselves.

[\[00:02:54\]](#transcript-00-02-54-37) Right.

[\[00:02:55\]](#transcript-00-02-55-38) I think it would be helpful just so before you start, because it's a little bit of a technical, but I think people need to understand that this is extremely important.

[\[00:03:02\]](#transcript-00-03-02-39) So, the question effectively that we're answering today in considering the uses of the law is: why did God give the law?

[\[00:03:10\]](#transcript-00-03-10-40) And that's a million-dollar question.

[\[00:03:13\]](#transcript-00-03-13-41) And obviously, there's language in the scriptures.

[\[00:03:16\]](#transcript-00-03-16-42) We're going to talk about Paul in particular from Galatians 3 and Romans 5 here in just a minute.

[\[00:03:19\]](#transcript-00-03-19-43) But why did God give the law?

[\[00:03:21\]](#transcript-00-03-21-44) What is the purpose of the law?

[\[00:03:22\]](#transcript-00-03-22-45) Well, there are multiple reasons that God gave the law.

[\[00:03:27\]](#transcript-00-03-27-46) And so that's effectively what we're getting at today.

[\[00:03:29\]](#transcript-00-03-29-47) And so I trust you're already interested.

[\[00:03:31\]](#transcript-00-03-31-48) We're going to assume a little bit of interest here.

[\[00:03:32\]](#transcript-00-03-32-49) That's good.

[\[00:03:33\]](#transcript-00-03-33-50) We're going to assume you're hooked.

[\[00:03:34\]](#transcript-00-03-34-51) That's good.

[\[00:03:34\]](#transcript-00-03-34-52) Why did God give the law?

[\[00:03:35\]](#transcript-00-03-35-53) All right.

[\[00:03:35\]](#transcript-00-03-35-54) So the first use, or a way that we'll sometimes frame it, the first and primary use of the law is to show us the depth of our sin and drive us to Christ the Savior, who kept the law

[\[00:03:49\]](#transcript-00-03-49-55) for us in terms of fulfilling its requirements and who also fulfilled its penalty on our punishment.

[\[00:03:55\]](#transcript-00-03-55-56) And so, this is a Galatians 3 and Romans 5 situation where Paul makes it very plain: like, why then the law?

[\[00:04:02\]](#transcript-00-04-02-57) It was given because of trespasses, he'll say, Galatians 3.

[\[00:04:05\]](#transcript-00-04-05-58) Romans 5, it was given to increase the trespass.

[\[00:04:08\]](#transcript-00-04-08-59) But what does that mean?

[\[00:04:10\]](#transcript-00-04-10-60) He means that it was given to do this very thing, to quite literally crush us in our sinfulness, so that we would not look unto ourselves for righteousness because we don't have it and we are not able to

[\[00:04:22\]](#transcript-00-04-22-61) keep the law perfectly.

[\[00:04:23\]](#transcript-00-04-23-62) And we would look unto the one who has kept it for us and fulfilled its penalty for us, namely Jesus Christ.

[\[00:04:29\]](#transcript-00-04-29-63) That is use one, the first and primary use of the law.

[\[00:04:32\]](#transcript-00-04-32-64) The second use of the law is sometimes referred to as pedagogical, teaching.

[\[00:04:37\]](#transcript-00-04-37-65) It sometimes is referred to as civil for these various reasons.

[\[00:04:42\]](#transcript-00-04-42-66) It is because this second use of the law applies to all men

[\[00:04:46\]](#transcript-00-04-46-67) in terms of revealing a standard of what is good and bad and what is right and wrong.

[\[00:04:53\]](#transcript-00-04-53-68) And God teaches these things not only by revealing the law's precepts and also the prohibitions.

[\[00:05:00\]](#transcript-00-05-00-69) But he also attaches sanctions to the law.

[\[00:05:03\]](#transcript-00-05-03-70) If we break it, we can expect this kind of punishment.

[\[00:05:06\]](#transcript-00-05-06-71) Also, uniquely situated within the covenant he made with Israel, which is next week's episode, he also promised blessing for keeping it.

[\[00:05:17\]](#transcript-00-05-17-72) You can expect things to go well for you in one sense if you obey the law.

[\[00:05:23\]](#transcript-00-05-23-73) And so that's the second use.

[\[00:05:24\]](#transcript-00-05-24-74) We're taught good and bad, and right and wrong, and we are encouraged by God to pursue obedience to the law.

[\[00:05:31\]](#transcript-00-05-31-75) We are discouraged by God in breaking the law.

[\[00:05:35\]](#transcript-00-05-35-76) Second use.

[\[00:05:37\]](#transcript-00-05-37-77) Third use is for Christians exclusively, and it is to guide our living in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[\[00:05:46\]](#transcript-00-05-46-78) So the third use of the law is this: that the law is our perfect guide for life in Christ Jesus?

[\[00:05:53\]](#transcript-00-05-53-79) The law no longer, in this third use sense, is condemnatory in any way.

[\[00:05:57\]](#transcript-00-05-57-80) It is no longer threatening to us in any way because Christ has handled all of that.

[\[00:06:01\]](#transcript-00-06-01-81) But we look to the law to know how to live.

[\[00:06:04\]](#transcript-00-06-04-82) We look to the law to know what to pursue.

[\[00:06:06\]](#transcript-00-06-06-83) We look to the law to know what we should flee from.

[\[00:06:09\]](#transcript-00-06-09-84) So if we're ever asking ourselves this question, all right, well, I've been united to Christ, I've been justified, forgiven, and absolved of guilt because of Christ alone.

[\[00:06:17\]](#transcript-00-06-17-85) How do I now live?

[\[00:06:18\]](#transcript-00-06-18-86) That's a law, that's a third use of the law question.

[\[00:06:22\]](#transcript-00-06-22-87) And the law being it guides us in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[\[00:06:26\]](#transcript-00-06-26-88) So that's first use, second use, third use.

[\[00:06:29\]](#transcript-00-06-29-89) And so now I think we're just going to unpack these a little bit more.

[\[00:06:33\]](#transcript-00-06-33-90) And inevitably, John, I know we're going to get into some discussion, if not in the regular episodes, certainly in SR, about how these uses are just confused.

[\[00:06:41\]](#transcript-00-06-41-91) And when you don't keep these things in appropriate categories and you keep them distinct, you end up confusing people in terms of how God intends the law to be used.

[\[00:06:53\]](#transcript-00-06-53-92) So, yeah, I know people have taken some qualms with certain words that the reformed tradition has used as means of titles and descriptions.

[\[00:07:04\]](#transcript-00-07-04-93) Like if you've read a book and the book doesn't have chapters and titles, uh, it's hard to know where you're at and what the references are.

[\[00:07:12\]](#transcript-00-07-12-94) And, uh, this is true of your Bible.

[\[00:07:14\]](#transcript-00-07-14-95) There are no technical titles, and there's definitely no verses in your Bible, but we use it.

[\[00:07:21\]](#transcript-00-07-21-96) In the original, yeah.

[\[00:07:22\]](#transcript-00-07-22-97) There's no chapter and titles, chapter and verses.

[\[00:07:25\]](#transcript-00-07-25-98) But we use them to help.

[\[00:07:27\]](#transcript-00-07-27-99) So when you say chapter and verse, you know, when Paul wrote verse 7, he didn't write verse 7.

[\[00:07:31\]](#transcript-00-07-31-100) No, he didn't.

[\[00:07:32\]](#transcript-00-07-32-101) He just wrote that sentence.

[\[00:07:32\]](#transcript-00-07-32-102) he just wrote that sentence.

[\[00:07:34\]](#transcript-00-07-34-103) So, you know, we're okay with doing that.

[\[00:07:36\]](#transcript-00-07-36-104) And I think it's okay for us to do this in general.

[\[00:07:38\]](#transcript-00-07-38-105) So, you know, sometimes people take qualms with things like covenant of works, covenant of grace, covenant of redemption, three uses of the law, law, gospel, distinction.

[\[00:07:45\]](#transcript-00-07-45-106) So someone would say, Well, I don't see anywhere in scripture where it would promote the third use of the law or even the concept of uses of the law.

[\[00:07:53\]](#transcript-00-07-53-107) And in their mind, they have one use of the law, and that is, you know, the Old Testament, the law, the Levitical law, or we would say even the ceremonial law.

[\[00:08:03\]](#transcript-00-08-03-108) And that's all that they can really reference.

[\[00:08:05\]](#transcript-00-08-05-109) So, like in Romans, when Paul says, you are no longer under law, but you're under grace, when we start hearing language from the reformers saying third use of the law, they're like, no way, man, we're not using the

[\[00:08:16\]](#transcript-00-08-16-110) law anymore.

[\[00:08:17\]](#transcript-00-08-17-111) We're not under law, we're under grace.

[\[00:08:19\]](#transcript-00-08-19-112) So I think, Justin, this is where we might want to give some clarity and helping people understand that we aren't putting a new law on people or we're not reinstituting the law as if one is obligated to live

[\[00:08:30\]](#transcript-00-08-30-113) under it to find righteousness for themselves.

[\[00:08:33\]](#transcript-00-08-33-114) We're no longer under the law as a covenant of works.

[\[00:08:35\]](#transcript-00-08-35-115) That's right.

[\[00:08:36\]](#transcript-00-08-36-116) We're no longer under the law to keep it for righteousness.

[\[00:08:39\]](#transcript-00-08-39-117) Well, all we're trying to do here is hold together the revelation of the scriptures where Jesus is clear in the Sermon on the Mount.

[\[00:08:47\]](#transcript-00-08-47-118) Right now, Romans 10, 4, Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.

[\[00:08:51\]](#transcript-00-08-51-119) That's easy to understand.

[\[00:08:52\]](#transcript-00-08-52-120) He has kept the law, fulfilled its requirements, fulfilled its penalty.

[\[00:08:56\]](#transcript-00-08-56-121) And so, in terms of righteousness, receive it in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[\[00:09:00\]](#transcript-00-09-00-122) I mean, we talked about that last episode in terms of law and gospel.

[\[00:09:03\]](#transcript-00-09-03-123) But then we're also trying to uphold, for example, Christ in the Sermon on the Mount.

[\[00:09:08\]](#transcript-00-09-08-124) After he says he does not come to abolish the law and the prophets, but to fulfill it.

[\[00:09:13\]](#transcript-00-09-13-125) He says that not a bit of this is going to pass away.

[\[00:09:17\]](#transcript-00-09-17-126) And in particular, in view, he's got the moral law.

[\[00:09:19\]](#transcript-00-09-19-127) That becomes obvious because he's going to talk about adultery and he's going to talk about murder and things.

[\[00:09:24\]](#transcript-00-09-24-128) And so he is saying that not one bit of the moral law of God is going to pass away until all things are accomplished.

[\[00:09:31\]](#transcript-00-09-31-129) And we are to teach people, right, to obey these things.

[\[00:09:36\]](#transcript-00-09-36-130) You know, now, again, is he saying obey it for righteousness?

[\[00:09:39\]](#transcript-00-09-39-131) No, because that's in effect the point of Matthew 5 is you haven't kept the law, and I'm coming to fulfill it, right?

[\[00:09:48\]](#transcript-00-09-48-132) But he is saying we need to teach one another to obey this.

[\[00:09:50\]](#transcript-00-09-50-133) So, I mean, in one sense, that's a third-use kind of category.

[\[00:09:54\]](#transcript-00-09-54-134) And to use the language of the reformers, like John Calvin's got a beautiful sentence on how the law in Christ Jesus is our kind advisor.

[\[00:10:01\]](#transcript-00-10-01-135) That's right.

[\[00:10:02\]](#transcript-00-10-02-136) It no longer is this exacting taskmaster, you know, but it is now our kind advisor in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[\[00:10:10\]](#transcript-00-10-10-137) It teaches us and shows us how to go about living life.

[\[00:10:14\]](#transcript-00-10-14-138) And people do struggle with these categories.

[\[00:10:16\]](#transcript-00-10-16-139) I mean, this is where Paul will say, 1 Timothy 1:8, I believe, he says that we uphold the law as long as it's used lawfully.

[\[00:10:24\]](#transcript-00-10-24-140) Well, in order to use the law lawfully, I would contend that you need to have these various uses in view and keep them appropriately distinct.

[\[00:10:33\]](#transcript-00-10-33-141) Because when you start collapsing all of these categories, then you're not going to uphold the law and use it lawfully.

[\[00:10:38\]](#transcript-00-10-38-142) You're going to do unlawful things with it.

[\[00:10:41\]](#transcript-00-10-41-143) That's right.

[\[00:10:41\]](#transcript-00-10-41-144) And you're going to harm the saints and you're going to confuse everyone, saints and unbelievers alike.

[\[00:10:48\]](#transcript-00-10-48-145) And if you, I mean, just look at the history of the church and the history of cultural Christianity and everything else in order to see very clearly that that kind of confusion has been prevalent at points.

[\[00:10:57\]](#transcript-00-10-57-146) Yeah.

[\[00:10:58\]](#transcript-00-10-58-147) Well, this is Calvin in his Institutes 4.20, point 16, when he says, It is a fact that the law of God, which we call the moral law, is nothing else than a testament of natural law and of that

[\[00:11:12\]](#transcript-00-11-12-148) conscience which God has engraved upon the minds of men.

[\[00:11:17\]](#transcript-00-11-17-149) Well, everyone would agree with that.

[\[00:11:18\]](#transcript-00-11-18-150) I mean, that's Romans 1, right?

[\[00:11:20\]](#transcript-00-11-20-151) So the natural law is what condemns everyone.

[\[00:11:24\]](#transcript-00-11-24-152) And so when we're talking about the third use of the law, if you, and I say this with a lot of grace, but if you reject the third use of the law, in essence, you're becoming antinomian because anti-inomia

[\[00:11:38\]](#transcript-00-11-38-153) means no law, no obligation to the law.

[\[00:11:40\]](#transcript-00-11-40-154) Or against the law.

[\[00:11:41\]](#transcript-00-11-41-155) Or against the law.

[\[00:11:42\]](#transcript-00-11-42-156) Right.

[\[00:11:43\]](#transcript-00-11-43-157) So there's a difference.

[\[00:11:44\]](#transcript-00-11-44-158) The reason why I love the word guide is that that's not an obligatory, in other words, do this and live, or under condemnation.

[\[00:11:52\]](#transcript-00-11-52-159) There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:11:55\]](#transcript-00-11-55-160) But the church does practice church discipline for those who reject holiness and righteousness, right?

[\[00:12:01\]](#transcript-00-12-01-161) So, if you disagree with God on righteousness and what it is, then you are against God's moral law.

[\[00:12:10\]](#transcript-00-12-10-162) And so, we're not, there's, if you hear third use of the law, you should never hear one can be condemned, or one is obligated to obey to earn righteousness.

[\[00:12:21\]](#transcript-00-12-21-163) It is the standard.

[\[00:12:23\]](#transcript-00-12-23-164) It's almost like this way, Justin.

[\[00:12:25\]](#transcript-00-12-25-165) Do you have rules in your home that govern your home to keep everyone safe and reflect love.

[\[00:12:30\]](#transcript-00-12-30-166) We do.

[\[00:12:31\]](#transcript-00-12-31-167) If your child disobeys that, are you kicking them out of the family?

[\[00:12:35\]](#transcript-00-12-35-168) We are not.

[\[00:12:36\]](#transcript-00-12-36-169) That is how it should be understood: is that the third use of the law guides our sinful hearts, when at times we war against the flesh, it becomes that God showing us this is what it means to reflect

[\[00:12:48\]](#transcript-00-12-48-170) the nature of God.

[\[00:12:49\]](#transcript-00-12-49-171) It is not a means to earn his favor, forgiveness, or righteousness.

[\[00:12:54\]](#transcript-00-12-54-172) And we are living lives of continual ongoing repentance where we are agreeing with God about the truth regarding our sin, and we are siding with God against it.

[\[00:13:03\]](#transcript-00-13-03-173) We talk in these terms all the time.

[\[00:13:05\]](#transcript-00-13-05-174) And those are third use of the law categories as well?

[\[00:13:09\]](#transcript-00-13-09-175) And I'm going to read a little bit from the 1689 London Baptist Confession, John, because there's a couple of paragraphs in chapter 19 on the law of God that are really helpful here.

[\[00:13:18\]](#transcript-00-13-18-176) Paragraph five is brief just to kind of underscore some of the things that we've been saying about the moral law.

[\[00:13:24\]](#transcript-00-13-24-177) And when you hear moral law, we're going to talk about this more next week.

[\[00:13:27\]](#transcript-00-13-27-178) That's right.

[\[00:13:28\]](#transcript-00-13-28-179) But when you hear moral law, think the law of God that he requires for righteousness as summarized in the Ten Commandments, right?

[\[00:13:36\]](#transcript-00-13-36-180) Written into humanity and creation, you know, given to Adam in that sense, but then given to Moses in two tablets of stone.

[\[00:13:43\]](#transcript-00-13-43-181) So, 19.5 of the 1689 reads this way: the moral law forever requires obedience of everyone, both those who are justified as well as others.

[\[00:13:51\]](#transcript-00-13-51-182) This obligation arises not only because of its content, but also because of the authority of God, the Creator who gave it.

[\[00:13:57\]](#transcript-00-13-57-183) Nor does Christ in any way dissolve this obligation in the gospel.

[\[00:14:00\]](#transcript-00-14-00-184) Instead, he greatly strengthens it.

[\[00:14:01\]](#transcript-00-14-01-185) So, this is where we would look to, again, Matthew 5 to understand that the moral law is still a thing.

[\[00:14:07\]](#transcript-00-14-07-186) And now, here's the deal: this is where 19.6 is so helpful.

[\[00:14:12\]](#transcript-00-14-12-187) And I think this paragraph, in some senses, John, is a beautiful summation of the conversation that we're trying to have today in its entirety.

[\[00:14:19\]](#transcript-00-14-19-188) So I would commend this to people.

[\[00:14:21\]](#transcript-00-14-21-189) I'm sure there's very similar language in the Westminster Confession in its congruent chapter.

[\[00:14:26\]](#transcript-00-14-26-190) So 19.6 of the 1689.

[\[00:14:28\]](#transcript-00-14-28-191) I'm just going to read this.

[\[00:14:29\]](#transcript-00-14-29-192) I may comment briefly, but I don't want to take too long.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-193) True believers are not under the law as a covenant of works to be justified or condemned by it.

[\[00:14:39\]](#transcript-00-14-39-194) So that's critical.

[\[00:14:40\]](#transcript-00-14-40-195) We've already acknowledged these things.

[\[00:14:43\]](#transcript-00-14-43-196) Yet, it is very useful to them and to others as a rule of life that informs them of the will of God and their duty.

[\[00:14:51\]](#transcript-00-14-51-197) It directs and obligates them to live according to its precepts.

[\[00:14:55\]](#transcript-00-14-55-198) It also exposes the sinful corruptions of their natures, hearts, and lives.

[\[00:15:00\]](#transcript-00-15-00-199) As they examine themselves in light of the law, they come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred of sin, along with a clearer view of their need for Christ and the perfection of His obedience.

[\[00:15:14\]](#transcript-00-15-14-200) The law is also useful to the regenerate To restrain their corruptions because it forbids sin.

[\[00:15:20\]](#transcript-00-15-20-201) The punishment threatened by the law shows them what even their sins deserve and what troubles they may expect in this life due to their sin, even though they are freed from the curse and undiminished severity of it.

[\[00:15:32\]](#transcript-00-15-32-202) The promises of the law likewise show them God's approval of obedience and the blessings they may expect when they keep it, even though these blessings are not owed to them by the law as a covenant of works.

[\[00:15:42\]](#transcript-00-15-42-203) If people do good and refrain from evil because the law encourages good and discourages evil, that does not indicate that they are under the law and not under grace.

[\[00:15:51\]](#transcript-00-15-51-204) Beautiful paragraphs.

[\[00:15:52\]](#transcript-00-15-52-205) That's so good.

[\[00:15:53\]](#transcript-00-15-53-206) Super helpful, man.

[\[00:15:54\]](#transcript-00-15-54-207) Yeah.

[\[00:15:55\]](#transcript-00-15-55-208) And therein, man, you kind of see a little bit of first, second, and third use as it would apply to the saints.

[\[00:16:02\]](#transcript-00-16-02-209) Because, you know, I'll just go ahead and because it's on my mind, and we're just having a conversation.

[\[00:16:07\]](#transcript-00-16-07-210) The first use of the law to crush us in our sin, you know, and show us the depth of our sin, to crush us in our sin and drive us to Christ.

[\[00:16:14\]](#transcript-00-16-14-211) Of course, this is how God uses the law to bring people to regeneration, repentance, faith, conversion, right?

[\[00:16:22\]](#transcript-00-16-22-212) I mean, of course, God does that in uniting people to Christ, uses the law that way.

[\[00:16:26\]](#transcript-00-16-26-213) But it's good that we would preach the first use of the law, even to all of us on Sundays in this sense.

[\[00:16:32\]](#transcript-00-16-32-214) We all need to be reminded, John, weakly that we can't keep the law for righteousness because we always tend to revert back to the law in some way.

[\[00:16:39\]](#transcript-00-16-39-215) That's right.

[\[00:16:39\]](#transcript-00-16-39-216) We always tend to confuse the issue as though our obedience to the law contributes something.

[\[00:16:43\]](#transcript-00-16-43-217) And we need to be reminded: no, brother, no, sister, no beloved.

[\[00:16:48\]](#transcript-00-16-48-218) Christ has done it all.

[\[00:16:50\]](#transcript-00-16-50-219) Just the law exposes the depth of your corruption that actually still remains in your flesh.

[\[00:16:56\]](#transcript-00-16-56-220) And what you should then do is not despair, but look unto Christ anew.

[\[00:17:01\]](#transcript-00-17-01-221) And if anything, marvel anew and be more grateful for what He's accomplished for you.

[\[00:17:07\]](#transcript-00-17-07-222) Let's again cast ourselves upon His mercy.

[\[00:17:09\]](#transcript-00-17-09-223) So there's that piece.

[\[00:17:10\]](#transcript-00-17-10-224) But then you also kind of saw a little bit of

[\[00:17:13\]](#transcript-00-17-13-225) the second use: you know, God discourages good, he discourages evil, you know, by revealing like rewards and punishments that we could expect in this life, even though we're not under the law as a covenant of work.

[\[00:17:24\]](#transcript-00-17-24-226) That's right.

[\[00:17:24\]](#transcript-00-17-24-227) And then he also talks about how it guides, or the confession talks at great length and in beautiful words about how the law guides our living and we seek to follow its precepts.

[\[00:17:33\]](#transcript-00-17-33-228) It tells us what our responsibilities and our obligations and our duties are.

[\[00:17:36\]](#transcript-00-17-36-229) And we're not under the law, we're under grace, right?

[\[00:17:39\]](#transcript-00-17-39-230) And just because we seek conformity unto the law doesn't mean that we're under the law as a covenant of works to be kept for righteousness.

[\[00:17:46\]](#transcript-00-17-46-231) And so, very helpful language from saints who have gone before.

[\[00:17:50\]](#transcript-00-17-50-232) Just another reminder of many that people have taken the Bible seriously in previous generations.

[\[00:17:56\]](#transcript-00-17-56-233) That's right.

[\[00:17:56\]](#transcript-00-17-56-234) We are not the first to have the empowerment of the Spirit to have it illuminated to us, as Charles Spurgeon so wisely said.

[\[00:18:03\]](#transcript-00-18-03-235) I think looking at Hebrews 12 is a good example of this, understanding 30 years of the law as well.

[\[00:18:08\]](#transcript-00-18-08-236) Looking unto Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, and what do we do, right?

[\[00:18:12\]](#transcript-00-18-12-237) We lay aside the weight and the sin.

[\[00:18:14\]](#transcript-00-18-14-238) How do we know what sin to lay aside?

[\[00:18:16\]](#transcript-00-18-16-239) The law is that guide telling us what sin we need to be laying aside.

[\[00:18:21\]](#transcript-00-18-21-240) And so that's why it's the guide.

[\[00:18:23\]](#transcript-00-18-23-241) We're not laying aside the sin to gain salvation or to gain righteousness in the eyes of God.

[\[00:18:29\]](#transcript-00-18-29-242) We're looking to Jesus for that.

[\[00:18:31\]](#transcript-00-18-31-243) And then the law comes in and reminds us of what it is to love God and to love the neighbor.

[\[00:18:37\]](#transcript-00-18-37-244) I think we quote this a lot, but I think it's helpful.

[\[00:18:40\]](#transcript-00-18-40-245) 2 Peter 1 is a great example of this, right?

[\[00:18:43\]](#transcript-00-18-43-246) He gives us a gospel and then the outflow of the law.

[\[00:18:47\]](#transcript-00-18-47-247) These are the things that you add to your faith, and they're all commands because you have to remember: commands are law.

[\[00:18:53\]](#transcript-00-18-53-248) Going back to the first episode we did on this.

[\[00:18:55\]](#transcript-00-18-55-249) So, what does he then tell?

[\[00:18:57\]](#transcript-00-18-57-250) What does Peter tell the church to add to it, right?

[\[00:18:59\]](#transcript-00-18-59-251) Godliness, gentleness, meekness, patience, forbearance, long-suffering.

[\[00:19:03\]](#transcript-00-19-03-252) These are all commands of things that they should do.

[\[00:19:05\]](#transcript-00-19-05-253) What I love is when he says, and if you're not doing them, the reason that you've not doing them is because you've forgotten that you've been cleansed.

[\[00:19:12\]](#transcript-00-19-12-254) The motivation is not do this and live, it is you are alive, so do this.

[\[00:19:18\]](#transcript-00-19-18-255) All right, you're not earning, you've received.

[\[00:19:20\]](#transcript-00-19-20-256) Um, one more other passage would be Philippians, right?

[\[00:19:24\]](#transcript-00-19-24-257) If there's any comfort, if there's any fellowship of the Spirit, right?

[\[00:19:28\]](#transcript-00-19-28-258) He says, then what is it?

[\[00:19:30\]](#transcript-00-19-30-259) He gives you law at that point.

[\[00:19:32\]](#transcript-00-19-32-260) He says, you need to lay your life down.

[\[00:19:35\]](#transcript-00-19-35-261) Consider others more significant than yourself.

[\[00:19:37\]](#transcript-00-19-37-262) So it's always gospel, and then it's done.

[\[00:19:41\]](#transcript-00-19-41-263) Now, here's what you need to do, right?

[\[00:19:46\]](#transcript-00-19-46-264) If you're new to Theocast, we have a free e-book available for you called Faith vs.

[\[00:19:51\]](#transcript-00-19-51-265) Faithfulness: A Primer Unrest.

[\[00:19:53\]](#transcript-00-19-53-266) And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a reformed confessional perspective.

[\[00:20:04\]](#transcript-00-20-04-267) You can get your free copy at theocast.org/slash primer.

[\[00:20:11\]](#transcript-00-20-11-268) Yeah, a couple of examples that come to my mind on how to use the law when speaking to or writing to believers.

[\[00:20:20\]](#transcript-00-20-20-269) I could pick umpteen examples in this first category, but I'll just use the low-hanging fruit of the letter to the Ephesians wholesale.

[\[00:20:26\]](#transcript-00-20-26-270) Right.

[\[00:20:27\]](#transcript-00-20-27-271) You get beautiful promises of the grace of God in Christ in the early chapters of Ephesians, and then Paul pivots to a number of exhortations.

[\[00:20:38\]](#transcript-00-20-38-272) I mean, like streams of thought in terms of writing to these people about how they're to live together as the saints in the body of Christ.

[\[00:20:47\]](#transcript-00-20-47-273) Well, all of that, in terms of how they're to live, it's not threatening.

[\[00:20:52\]](#transcript-00-20-52-274) And it is grounded in the objective work in their place and the salvation that God has given them by grace received through faith.

[\[00:21:01\]](#transcript-00-21-01-275) And so, all of that kind of Ephesians 4 through 6 stuff is third use of the law stuff.

[\[00:21:07\]](#transcript-00-21-07-276) You know, you are the redeemed, you are saints in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[\[00:21:13\]](#transcript-00-21-13-277) This is the mystery of God that's been hidden for ages, that's now been revealed.

[\[00:21:16\]](#transcript-00-21-16-278) Like, God is doing this in the church, and you're a part of it.

[\[00:21:20\]](#transcript-00-21-20-279) And now live together this way.

[\[00:21:22\]](#transcript-00-21-22-280) It's a great example of the third use of the law.

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-281) You know, where he exhorts people to love and forbearance and patience and humility and unity, seeking and pursuing unity in the spirit and the bond of peace.

[\[00:21:33\]](#transcript-00-21-33-282) And here's how we're to live together and build one another up in love unto maturity in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:21:38\]](#transcript-00-21-38-283) Put off the old man, put on the new man stuff, right?

[\[00:21:41\]](#transcript-00-21-41-284) And here's how you're to talk to each other.

[\[00:21:43\]](#transcript-00-21-43-285) Like, all that is good.

[\[00:21:46\]](#transcript-00-21-46-286) So, then the other text that comes to my mind is a slightly different.

[\[00:21:50\]](#transcript-00-21-50-287) This is more of a first use of the law to the Christian.

[\[00:21:52\]](#transcript-00-21-52-288) This is 1 Corinthians 6:9 to 11, pointedly.

[\[00:21:56\]](#transcript-00-21-56-289) But the context there, if people remember, in 1 Corinthians 5, Paul writes to the church, the entire church in Corinth, and writes about a dude that is having relations with his stepmom.

[\[00:22:05\]](#transcript-00-22-05-290) And he's like look, even pagans know this is whack.

[\[00:22:08\]](#transcript-00-22-08-291) And yet, you guys seem to be celebrating this as a kind of expression of Christian freedom, like you're arrogant.

[\[00:22:13\]](#transcript-00-22-13-292) And instead, what you should do is remove this person so that he might actually be saved, he might be restored.

[\[00:22:19\]](#transcript-00-22-19-293) And then in the early portion of chapter six in 1 Corinthians, Paul's writing about, like, guys, this is a dumpster fire.

[\[00:22:25\]](#transcript-00-22-25-294) Like, you're suing each other, and like, all kinds of bad things are happening here.

[\[00:22:30\]](#transcript-00-22-30-295) Brief insertion.

[\[00:22:32\]](#transcript-00-22-32-296) Every time people kind of foolishly will look at me or, you know, a pastor somewhere and be like, you know, we need to go back to the golden age of the early church.

[\[00:22:43\]](#transcript-00-22-43-297) You know, we need, we need to go back to the center of the first century.

[\[00:22:47\]](#transcript-00-22-47-298) You know To the first century church, because those were the days when they were murdering each other.

[\[00:22:52\]](#transcript-00-22-52-299) And I want to be like, bro, have you read the same New Testament letters I'm reading?

[\[00:22:57\]](#transcript-00-22-57-300) Because the church in the first century is just like the church now.

[\[00:23:01\]](#transcript-00-23-01-301) I mean, it was comprised of sinners, you know.

[\[00:23:04\]](#transcript-00-23-04-302) Anyway, that's another conversation.

[\[00:23:07\]](#transcript-00-23-07-303) But, bruh, I mean, how foolish, right?

[\[00:23:09\]](#transcript-00-23-09-304) We so romanticize things in ways that aren't helpful.

[\[00:23:12\]](#transcript-00-23-12-305) so those people were just like us, but Paul is writing to them: like, here's this thing with this guy, this is really bad.

[\[00:23:17\]](#transcript-00-23-17-306) Here's this, like, you're suing each other and just like bludgeoning each other to death in the gentile courts.

[\[00:23:23\]](#transcript-00-23-23-307) I mean, this is just terrible, and then he says to them, Do you not know that anybody who participates in the following list of sins will not inherit the kingdom of God?

[\[00:23:35\]](#transcript-00-23-35-308) Full stop.

[\[00:23:36\]](#transcript-00-23-36-309) Like, that's a first you, like, anybody who does these things is worthy of death, condemnation, wrath.

[\[00:23:41\]](#transcript-00-23-41-310) And then he says this: And such were some of you, such were some of you, but you have been washed, you've been sanctified, you've been cleansed, right?

[\[00:23:49\]](#transcript-00-23-49-311) In the Lord Jesus Christ.

[\[00:23:50\]](#transcript-00-23-50-312) That's a kind of first use of the law application for the saints, where he says effectively, why would you knowingly and willingly participate in things for which the wrath of God is coming?

[\[00:24:02\]](#transcript-00-24-02-313) Right?

[\[00:24:03\]](#transcript-00-24-03-314) And, but he's still not telling them that they're condemned.

[\[00:24:06\]](#transcript-00-24-06-315) That's right.

[\[00:24:07\]](#transcript-00-24-07-316) He's telling, he's like, you used to be this, you're not anymore.

[\[00:24:10\]](#transcript-00-24-10-317) Why would you do this?

[\[00:24:12\]](#transcript-00-24-12-318) You know, and this is who you are now.

[\[00:24:15\]](#transcript-00-24-15-319) Yeah.

[\[00:24:16\]](#transcript-00-24-16-320) So that's beautiful.

[\[00:24:17\]](#transcript-00-24-17-321) Yeah.

[\[00:24:18\]](#transcript-00-24-18-322) John, I think, yeah.

[\[00:24:19\]](#transcript-00-24-19-323) I think a good thing to go to now is how some of these categories are confused.

[\[00:24:22\]](#transcript-00-24-22-324) And maybe we can illustrate this.

[\[00:24:24\]](#transcript-00-24-24-325) And I would just add to that.

[\[00:24:24\]](#transcript-00-24-24-326) James is dealing with this very issue when he talks about holding to the faith and partiality.

[\[00:24:29\]](#transcript-00-24-29-327) He is, he is, and he goes in and he uses the law as an example of this.

[\[00:24:34\]](#transcript-00-24-34-328) You fail in one area of the law, you're guilty of it all.

[\[00:24:37\]](#transcript-00-24-37-329) That's first use.

[\[00:24:38\]](#transcript-00-24-38-330) And then he does carried over to the third use, saying that, okay, now you need to speak and so act as one who has been liberated from the law, right?

[\[00:24:46\]](#transcript-00-24-46-331) So, this is a theme that's almost in every New Testament epistle when you think about it.

[\[00:24:50\]](#transcript-00-24-50-332) Yes.

[\[00:24:51\]](#transcript-00-24-51-333) Galians 6.

[\[00:24:51\]](#transcript-00-24-51-334) I would contend that it is.

[\[00:24:52\]](#transcript-00-24-52-335) Yeah, Galatians 6, or Galatians altogether, but Galatians 6 is a great example of this as well.

[\[00:24:57\]](#transcript-00-24-57-336) You're using the law to pull someone out of sin.

[\[00:24:59\]](#transcript-00-24-59-337) Well, how do you know?

[\[00:25:00\]](#transcript-00-25-00-338) Identify that they're in sin, right?

[\[00:25:01\]](#transcript-00-25-01-339) We have to use the law to do that.

[\[00:25:03\]](#transcript-00-25-03-340) So, yeah, I think the next section that we're going to spend probably the next, you know, five to ten minutes on is Justin, something that we speak of.

[\[00:25:10\]](#transcript-00-25-10-341) We've observed before.

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-342) Right.

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-343) We speak of often.

[\[00:25:13\]](#transcript-00-25-13-344) And I think now that you have a law-gospel distinction from episode one, now you have the three uses of the law understanding.

[\[00:25:19\]](#transcript-00-25-19-345) We'll spend time now in an SR explaining how if you mix the first and the third use, you will create all kinds of legalism and all kinds of pietism, and you will rob people of assurance.

[\[00:25:32\]](#transcript-00-25-32-346) And yo, I was going to say, you're either going to create in the hearts and minds of some a very wicked, prideful self-righteousness.

[\[00:25:40\]](#transcript-00-25-40-347) That's right.

[\[00:25:40\]](#transcript-00-25-40-348) And I would argue in the hearts and minds of most, you're going to end up producing despair and fear.

[\[00:25:47\]](#transcript-00-25-47-349) And it's just not good.

[\[00:25:49\]](#transcript-00-25-49-350) Yeah.

[\[00:25:49\]](#transcript-00-25-49-351) So, this is something we've observed before that a lot of times in our contemporary context, and I think this is certainly true amongst like serious, sort of Calvinistic types, maybe more prevalently, or at least in a more exacting

[\[00:26:03\]](#transcript-00-26-03-352) way, this is done.

[\[00:26:06\]](#transcript-00-26-06-353) The first use of the law and the third use of the law are kind of collapsed and muddied, and the third use of the law, at least how it should be communicated to guide our living in Christ, is

[\[00:26:18\]](#transcript-00-26-18-354) preached in a very first use, like you've got to do this, you know, or you're going to die, yeah, kind of way.

[\[00:26:25\]](#transcript-00-26-25-355) Yeah.

[\[00:26:25\]](#transcript-00-26-25-356) You know, and go ahead, John.

[\[00:26:27\]](#transcript-00-26-27-357) So the perfect example of this is James chapter 2.

[\[00:26:31\]](#transcript-00-26-31-358) This is where this is done all of the time.

[\[00:26:34\]](#transcript-00-26-34-359) So James comes in and he's dealing with people who are not living according to their status?

[\[00:26:41\]](#transcript-00-26-41-360) They are confused, they're being persecuted, they're being selfish.

[\[00:26:46\]](#transcript-00-26-46-361) And so James comes in and he says, Listen, you're claiming to be a Christian.

[\[00:26:51\]](#transcript-00-26-51-362) And if that's the case, you need to be living this way, showing you're showing partiality, you're treating each other horribly.

[\[00:27:00\]](#transcript-00-27-00-363) The way you're using your tongue is absolutely ungodly.

[\[00:27:03\]](#transcript-00-27-03-364) And what's interesting is that in the first chapter, he says brothers seven times before he gets to chapter two.

[\[00:27:10\]](#transcript-00-27-10-365) And he starts chapter two saying, My brothers, this ought not so to be.

[\[00:27:15\]](#transcript-00-27-15-366) So he is not using first use, he's not calling into question their salvation.

[\[00:27:22\]](#transcript-00-27-22-367) When you start collapsing those two down, you are, in essence, collapsing law and gospel again, right?

[\[00:27:28\]](#transcript-00-27-28-368) So it's if I'm dealing in a, like I have church, I have congregants right now that I'm dealing with that they're entangled in sin and they're trapped in it.

[\[00:27:36\]](#transcript-00-27-36-369) And so I'm going to them and I'm preaching them to the gospel.

[\[00:27:39\]](#transcript-00-27-39-370) This is the freedom, and this is how you're violating it.

[\[00:27:41\]](#transcript-00-27-41-371) And I am calling them to restoration in the trust and faith in Christ.

[\[00:27:46\]](#transcript-00-27-46-372) I am not going to them with the first use saying, since you have failed here, you're now, your faith is now in question.

[\[00:27:57\]](#transcript-00-27-57-373) I think the greatest example of this are two.

[\[00:28:00\]](#transcript-00-28-00-374) James 5.

[\[00:28:02\]](#transcript-00-28-02-375) He says: if you're spiritually sick and you're not doing well, have this person confess their sin.

[\[00:28:08\]](#transcript-00-28-08-376) He doesn't call into question their salvation.

[\[00:28:10\]](#transcript-00-28-10-377) Again, Galatians 6: if one is caught in sin, so much so they can't get out.

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-378) You don't go to them and question their salvation.

[\[00:28:20\]](#transcript-00-28-20-379) You go to them in what?

[\[00:28:21\]](#transcript-00-28-21-380) You restore them with the spirit of meekness and gentleness.

[\[00:28:24\]](#transcript-00-28-24-381) We're using the gospel as a means of restoration.

[\[00:28:27\]](#transcript-00-28-27-382) This is so important.

[\[00:28:28\]](#transcript-00-28-28-383) But what happens in modern-day, I would say, revivalistic/slash/Calvangelical preaching is that we get up and we call people's salvation to question.

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-384) And if you're speaking to believers and you're doing that with the first use and you're not backing it with the gospel, exactly, that is shameful.

[\[00:28:47\]](#transcript-00-28-47-385) No, I agree.

[\[00:28:48\]](#transcript-00-28-48-386) So, like, the first use of the law, to be very clear, is preached to the saints every week in my church.

[\[00:28:53\]](#transcript-00-28-53-387) But the way we do this is, again, it's by way of law gospel reminder: like, beloved, here is God's standard in the law, and we have failed to attain to this.

[\[00:29:03\]](#transcript-00-29-03-388) That's right.

[\[00:29:04\]](#transcript-00-29-04-389) And thereby, let us all look unto Christ who has done it for us.

[\[00:29:08\]](#transcript-00-29-08-390) We need to be reminded of that.

[\[00:29:10\]](#transcript-00-29-10-391) That's an appropriate application of the first use of the law to the saints.

[\[00:29:14\]](#transcript-00-29-14-392) The very exacting first use of the law is preached to those outside of Christ.

[\[00:29:20\]](#transcript-00-29-20-393) Like you think you're okay and you're not.

[\[00:29:22\]](#transcript-00-29-22-394) Like you think you've done what God requires, you are deluded because you don't understand the holiness of the law.

[\[00:29:29\]](#transcript-00-29-29-395) And let me help you understand the holiness of the law that you might be crushed and absolutely despair of yourself so that you might then go look unto Christ, right?

[\[00:29:37\]](#transcript-00-29-37-396) That's how we preach it to those outside of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[\[00:29:41\]](#transcript-00-29-41-397) But sadly, what happens so often in our context, like you said, is there's the first use of the law minus the gospel.

[\[00:29:50\]](#transcript-00-29-50-398) Like, let me just crush you with the law, you know, and but I don't really give you hope in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[\[00:29:55\]](#transcript-00-29-55-399) I just cause you to despair of yourself.

[\[00:29:57\]](#transcript-00-29-57-400) And then it's just like, no, you need to do better, you know, and you need to try harder, is sort of the conclusion.

[\[00:30:02\]](#transcript-00-30-02-401) It's a gross application of the first use of the law, and it's masquerading as the third use of the law, supposedly to guide us in our living.

[\[00:30:10\]](#transcript-00-30-10-402) But instead, we're condemning everyone and we're calling everybody's salvation into question.

[\[00:30:14\]](#transcript-00-30-14-403) We're telling people that, hey, you know, you may very well not have any reason to think that you're amongst the redeemed.

[\[00:30:20\]](#transcript-00-30-20-404) And that's just kind of how we do it because we're trying to smoke out the fakers and smoke out the nominal.

[\[00:30:24\]](#transcript-00-30-24-405) Can I just say that I want to give two biblical examples in a separate go?

[\[00:30:27\]](#transcript-00-30-27-406) Yeah, I just want to say go back to our critique of John Piper's Sermon on Holiness is a great example of

[\[00:30:34\]](#transcript-00-30-34-407) confusing the first and the third use.

[\[00:30:36\]](#transcript-00-30-36-408) He approaches the congregation using the first and he doesn't give them the gospel as the means of doing the third.

[\[00:30:44\]](#transcript-00-30-44-409) He's preaching the first use of the law, but not then giving gospel.

[\[00:30:48\]](#transcript-00-30-48-410) And he's preaching the law as a threat, supposedly, to guide our living.

[\[00:30:53\]](#transcript-00-30-53-411) And it's just not, there's just all kinds of category confusion going on, not just in that one message, but we would humbly suggest in a lot of preaching in our land, sadly.

[\[00:31:04\]](#transcript-00-31-04-412) So good examples of this and how these passages are taught, and we've expounded on these before, so I don't need to do this at length.

[\[00:31:11\]](#transcript-00-31-11-413) But if you don't understand these uses of the law, you're going to butcher passages like the Good Samaritan and like the rich young man.

[\[00:31:18\]](#transcript-00-31-18-414) Because, and here's how we do this: we collapse law and gospel, and we confuse the way the law is supposed to be used rightly, we don't do it.

[\[00:31:28\]](#transcript-00-31-28-415) So we'll go to the Good Samaritan and we will acknowledge the context in some sort of like cursory way.

[\[00:31:34\]](#transcript-00-31-34-416) You know, that there's this guy asking what he needs to do in order to inherit the kingdom of God.

[\[00:31:38\]](#transcript-00-31-38-417) Jesus says, Well, what's the law?

[\[00:31:39\]](#transcript-00-31-39-418) How do you read it?

[\[00:31:40\]](#transcript-00-31-40-419) He says, Love God and love the neighbor.

[\[00:31:41\]](#transcript-00-31-41-420) And Jesus says, Exactly, do that, and you'll live.

[\[00:31:44\]](#transcript-00-31-44-421) And then the man doubles down.

[\[00:31:46\]](#transcript-00-31-46-422) Well, okay, well, who's my neighbor?

[\[00:31:48\]](#transcript-00-31-48-423) Because I want to make sure I'm doing this thing kind of thing.

[\[00:31:50\]](#transcript-00-31-50-424) But then here's what we end up doing with the Good Samaritan: we effectively just unsettle everyone and condemn everyone for not loving their neighbor well enough.

[\[00:32:00\]](#transcript-00-32-00-425) We don't then give them the good news, right?

[\[00:32:02\]](#transcript-00-32-02-426) And we tell them to go and try harder if they're going to legitimately be a Christian.

[\[00:32:06\]](#transcript-00-32-06-427) And I'm just like, man, that's so bad on so many levels because the first use of the law, there, which is, I think, Jesus's main point, is that nobody has loved neighbor this way.

[\[00:32:15\]](#transcript-00-32-15-428) No, nobody's kept God's law, and thereby you need to look somewhere else than your own righteousness.

[\[00:32:21\]](#transcript-00-32-21-429) One, then, third use, kindly, right?

[\[00:32:24\]](#transcript-00-32-24-430) Secondary takeaway in the Lord Jesus Christ, hey, beloved, we have been given everything in Christ.

[\[00:32:30\]](#transcript-00-32-30-431) Ought we not seek by grace in the Spirit to sacrificially love each other?

[\[00:32:35\]](#transcript-00-32-35-432) Philippians 2.

[\[00:32:37\]](#transcript-00-32-37-433) You know, I mean, there it is.

[\[00:32:38\]](#transcript-00-32-38-434) Rich young man, same thing.

[\[00:32:40\]](#transcript-00-32-40-435) You know, category confusion, right?

[\[00:32:42\]](#transcript-00-32-42-436) This young man thinks he's kept the law.

[\[00:32:43\]](#transcript-00-32-43-437) He says, I've kept the commandments.

[\[00:32:45\]](#transcript-00-32-45-438) And then Jesus turns the temperature up, says, Okay, if you effectively paraphrase, all right, then prove it.

[\[00:32:51\]](#transcript-00-32-51-439) Sell everything you have, give it to the poor, follow me.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-440) Young man can't do it.

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-441) All right.

[\[00:32:55\]](#transcript-00-32-55-442) How do we often hear that communicated?

[\[00:32:57\]](#transcript-00-32-57-443) Surrender all for Christ.

[\[00:32:59\]](#transcript-00-32-59-444) And if you're not at least willing to surrender all for Christ, you're not legit.

[\[00:33:03\]](#transcript-00-33-03-445) Yep.

[\[00:33:03\]](#transcript-00-33-03-446) Terrible and terrible exegesis, right?

[\[00:33:06\]](#transcript-00-33-06-447) The point of all that is to the young man, first use of the law: hey, homie, you think you've kept the law?

[\[00:33:12\]](#transcript-00-33-12-448) You have not.

[\[00:33:13\]](#transcript-00-33-13-449) That's right.

[\[00:33:13\]](#transcript-00-33-13-450) You have not loved God and neighbor.

[\[00:33:16\]](#transcript-00-33-16-451) If you had kept the law, you could do this.

[\[00:33:18\]](#transcript-00-33-18-452) Sell everything you have, give it to the poor, and follow me with no difficulty whatsoever.

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-453) The reason you can't do this is because you have not kept the law, nor are you able to, right?

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-454) And so, then, gospel, we should say, look unto Christ, the one who is standing right in front of the man is his salvation, right?

[\[00:33:35\]](#transcript-00-33-35-455) I mean, this is gospel.

[\[00:33:36\]](#transcript-00-33-36-456) So then, third-use takeaway: you know, if we're going to think this through, we can then talk about how we want to live lives of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, you know, and how we don't want to, you

[\[00:33:48\]](#transcript-00-33-48-457) know, store up treasures on earth or something.

[\[00:33:50\]](#transcript-00-33-50-458) I mean, that's entirely legitimate to say, but to tell people to go have a yard sale, you know, and get rid of everything they own and be willing to do this, that, or the other in order to be

[\[00:34:01\]](#transcript-00-34-01-459) a legitimate Christian is not a right application of that passage.

[\[00:34:05\]](#transcript-00-34-05-460) And just brief observation: the word willing is nowhere to be found there.

[\[00:34:09\]](#transcript-00-34-09-461) I mean, it's all just Jesus says, do this, you know, but yet we introduce this willingness category because we collapse law and gospel and we collapse the law and its uses in order to make it work.

[\[00:34:20\]](#transcript-00-34-20-462) I tell my wife that every day, I'm willing to sacrificially love you, even though I don't.

[\[00:34:24\]](#transcript-00-34-24-463) I'm willing to do it.

[\[00:34:25\]](#transcript-00-34-25-464) No, anyway, man.

[\[00:34:28\]](#transcript-00-34-28-465) Well, it's crazy.

[\[00:34:29\]](#transcript-00-34-29-466) These are just examples.

[\[00:34:30\]](#transcript-00-34-30-467) Yeah, I've got some more examples, like take up your cross and follow me.

[\[00:34:34\]](#transcript-00-34-34-468) We can talk about how what category does that fall into.

[\[00:34:36\]](#transcript-00-34-36-469) We'll do this in Sempere for Monda.

[\[00:34:38\]](#transcript-00-34-38-470) So, for those of you that are listening, if you haven't got a chance to listen to episode one, encourage you to go do so.

[\[00:34:42\]](#transcript-00-34-42-471) In our notes, we have multiple episodes are great examples of first and third use confusion, take up your cross and follow me.

[\[00:34:50\]](#transcript-00-34-50-472) Following Jesus is not the gospel.

[\[00:34:53\]](#transcript-00-34-53-473) How pietism goods works, all of those episodes will be down there.

[\[00:34:56\]](#transcript-00-34-56-474) We encourage you to listen to those.

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-475) Justin and I record a second podcast every week, of a week.

[\[00:35:02\]](#transcript-00-35-02-476) And it's part of our program called Simpa Refer Manda.

[\[00:35:06\]](#transcript-00-35-06-477) This is for those who love to continue to have conversations with us, but also want to support our ministry financially.

[\[00:35:14\]](#transcript-00-35-14-478) And so, this is what allows us to continue to produce the podcast.

[\[00:35:16\]](#transcript-00-35-16-479) And we have an app and a whole entire community in there.

[\[00:35:19\]](#transcript-00-35-19-480) We are producing books.

[\[00:35:21\]](#transcript-00-35-21-481) Justin are finishing up a book called The Basics Introductions to Reformed Theology.

[\[00:35:26\]](#transcript-00-35-26-482) We'll finish that thing.

[\[00:35:27\]](#transcript-00-35-27-483) Hey, it's in process.

[\[00:35:30\]](#transcript-00-35-30-484) So we're just encouraged by all of that.

[\[00:35:32\]](#transcript-00-35-32-485) And because of our members, we've been able to start a church planting network called Grace Reformed Network.

[\[00:35:37\]](#transcript-00-35-37-486) You can go to gracereformnetwork.org to learn more about that.

[\[00:35:40\]](#transcript-00-35-40-487) If you'd like to learn more, all about all that, just go to our website, theocast.org.

[\[00:35:44\]](#transcript-00-35-44-488) And for those of you that are going to be joining us next week, stay tuned because next week we are going to be covering the third part, which is understanding the different parts of the law.

[\[00:35:55\]](#transcript-00-35-55-489) So the three different parts of the law as far as ceremony, civil, and I'm having a brain moral law, ceremonial law, civil.

[\[00:36:03\]](#transcript-00-36-03-490) Thank you.

[\[00:36:04\]](#transcript-00-36-04-491) So, we'll see you guys next week.

---

### Intro to Law and Gospel Distinction

*Published: May 25, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/intro-to-law-and-gospel-distinction*
*Tags: law gospel distinction*

In this first of three episodes on God's law, Jon and Justin talk about the distinction between the law and the gospel. The law and the gospel are both contained in the Old and New Testaments, respectively. The law and the gospel are distinct and ought not be mixed--and, yet, they are complementary in God's economy of salvation. The guys introduce the listener to this historically Reformed doctrine and consider why it is so important.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin consider how covenant theology and law/gospel distinction complement one another in a Reformed theological framework. The guys talk about how useful these tools are for rightly understanding the Scriptures.

Resources:  
[Our episode on "What Must I Do to Be Saved?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-must-i-do-to-be-saved/)  
[Our episode on "Are You a Legalist or an Antinomian?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/are-you-a-legalist-or-an-antinomian/)  
[Our episode on "The Law, the Gospel, and Sanctification"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/the-law-the-gospel-and-sanctification/)

https://youtu.be/RDjkKGIu0xQ

---

### Stop Trying to Make Sense of Suffering

*Published: May 18, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/stop-trying-to-make-sense-of-suffering*
*Tags: pain, suffering*

Often in the church, we try to figure out exactly what God is doing when we are going through difficult things. Simply put, we shouldn't do that. The secret things belong to the Lord, and we are not privy to the counsel of God when it comes to our suffering. In today's episode, Jon and Justin aim to point out things that God has clearly revealed and promised to us in his Word. We do have an unshakable hope in the Lord Jesus Christ, and this is what we cling to--in the midst of joy or pain.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue the conversation on suffering by considering less-than-good ways suffering is talked about and dealt with in the church. We have a gentle, patient, and merciful Savior. This should inform how we interact with one another in the midst of pain.

Resources:  
[Our episode on "There Will Be Weakness"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/there-will-be-weakness/)  
[Our episode on Two Kingdoms](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/two-kingdoms-with-david-vandrunen/)  
[Our episode on "The Quest for Religious Experience"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/the-quest-for-religious-experience/)

https://youtu.be/Uv8C6wTY8y4

---

### Gospel Power for the Weary

*Published: May 11, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/gospel-power-for-the-weary*
*Tags: Struggling, Weary*

In today's episode, Jon and Justin aim to have a pastoral conversation with two groups of people in view. First, those who are beat down and weary, who are seeking to find rest. And second, those who have found rest in Christ but still wrestle with what that rest means for their Christian lives. Where does the power for sanctification come from? What do we do now that we know Christ has done everything for our salvation?  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin have a fun conversation about Jesus, calming down, assessing ourselves honestly, looking to God's Word, and loving our brothers and sisters. Resources:  
  
Our episode on "How Pietism Ruins Good Works" [https://youtu.be/19OhlchARt0 ](https://youtu.be/19OhlchARt0)Our episode on "Your Sanctification Is Not for You?" [https://youtu.be/nfDuTYz3pnA ](https://youtu.be/nfDuTYz3pnA)  
Our episode on "Have We Missed the Point of Church?" [https://youtu.be/JLHz0Cgga4s ](https://youtu.be/JLHz0Cgga4s)  
Our episode on "What Is--and Is Not--the Gospel" <https://youtu.be/NmrZA951WYU>  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYL-Um-74z0

---

### John Piper on Holiness

*Published: May 4, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/john-piper-on-holiness*
*Tags: Holiness, John Piper*

In this episode, Jon and Justin discuss a message recently given by John Piper on Christ's death and the holiness of the believer. The guys interact with clips from the message and seek to consider it from a biblical, confessional, and Reformed perspective. At Theocast, we are in complete agreement that Christ's work has secured the holiness of the saints. Significant things to consider along these lines are: union with Christ; the active obedience of Christ; the relationship of justification and sanctification; and the proper way to preach the law and the gospel.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue the conversation on the holiness of believers. The guys consider better--and more biblical--ways to pursue and instill holiness in the church.

Resources:

Our episode on Hebrews 12 https://youtu.be/QvdOXbBlnv4

Our episode on "Your Sanctification Is Not for You" https://youtu.be/nfDuTYz3pnA

Our episode on "Piper and Wilson Obscuring the Gospel" https://youtu.be/Z7tlAGv8c3k

https://youtu.be/Recw\_sMjZ8g

---

### Following Jesus Is Not the Gospel

*Published: April 27, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/following-jesus-is-not-the-gospel*
*Tags: Following Jesus, Gospel*

Following Jesus is not the gospel. There are a number of things that are fruits of regeneration and fruits of the gospel that are not the gospel. Biblically speaking, the gospel has nothing to do with us whatsoever. The gospel is completely about the person and work of Jesus Christ, our substitute and mediator. Jon and Justin talk about the fruit of the gospel, the order of salvation, and justification from a confessional, reformed perspective.  
  
Semper Reformanda: The guys talk about the legitimacy of using confessions and of critiquing the doctrine of notable figures. Then, they go into more depth on some of the ways justification is under assault in our day.  
  
Resources:  
[Our episode on "What must I do to be saved?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-must-i-do-to-be-saved/)  
[Our episode on Take up your cross](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/take-up-your-cross/)  
[Our episode on biblicism](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/biblicists-beware/)  
[Our episode on how pietism ruins good works](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/how-pietism-ruins-good-works/)  
  
https://youtu.be/lJlHlwndPQ0

---

### Stop Taking Jesus Out of the Bible

*Published: April 20, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/stop-taking-jesus-out-of-the-bible*
*Tags: suffering, Theology of the Cross*

We believe that all of the Bible--from Genesis to Revelation--is a testimony about Jesus. We believe there is law and gospel in the Old and New Testaments. These convictions are historical, confessional, Reformed convictions. Yet, many in our day get very nervous about seeing Christ in all of the Bible and of understanding the Scriptures in terms of law and gospel. Our fear is that, at the end of it, well-meaning people discourage the saints from seeing Christ for them in all of the Scriptures. Jon and Justin talk about this on today's episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue to talk (passionately) about the tendency of many to remove Jesus from many passages of the Bible. Then the guys talk about how effective the heralding of Christ actually is.

Resources:

Introduction to Covenant Theology: https://youtu.be/iCfzmujnlHo

Desiring God Article: https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/exposition-or-imposition

The Master's Seminary Article: https://blog.tms.edu/is-christ-in-every-verse

Grace To You Article: <https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A235/reexamining-the-eternal-sonship-of-christ>

https://youtu.be/KfFeQNVPtkg

---

### There Will Be Weakness

*Published: April 6, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/there-will-be-weakness*
*Tags: suffering, Theology of the Cross*

We are often made to think that the Christian life is one where we move from triumph to triumph--and from spiritual experience to spiritual experience. But that is not reality. It is not the promise of the Scripture. This side of the resurrection, we are learning to trust Christ in the midst of weakness and the battle against the flesh. We are learning to depend more upon grace. It is not a bad thing for us to come to a place where we know Christ is all we have. The guys consider all of this in today's episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin answer listener questions on Two Kingdoms doctrine and also on views of eschatology as it relates to the redemptive-historical framework of Scripture.

Resources:  
[Our episode on triumphalism](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/tag/triumphalism/)  
[Our episode on Two Kingdoms](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/two-kingdoms-with-david-vandrunen/)  
[Our episode eschatology (Left Behind?)](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/left-behind-a-conversation-on-eschatology/)

FREE EBOOK Theocast.org/primer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY8uVFMAE0c

---

### Exciting Update: Gospel Advancement

*Published: April 5, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/exciting-update-gospel-advancement*
*Tags: Grace Reformed Network, GRN*

Jon and Justin talk about the start of a new network of confessional Baptist churches, called the Grace Reformed Network. The guys explain the need for the network, as well as the theological positions of the network. If you'd like to learn more, please visit [gracereformednetwork.org](http://gracereformednetwork.org).

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk more personally about what led to starting the Grace Reformed Network and the need for more confessional churches.

https://youtu.be/8\_uoihF7Lqo

---

### What Must I Do to Be Saved?

*Published: March 30, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-must-i-do-to-be-saved*
*Tags: Good Samaritan, Lordship Salvation, Rich young ruler*

Jon and Justin seek to answer the question, "What must I do to be saved?" This is a question that was posed to Jesus at numerous points. The apostles also addressed this question repeatedly. The guys consider two parables from the Lord Jesus: the Good Samaritan and the Rich Young Man; and also a passage from the apostle Paul: Romans 2:6-13\. Reformed categories of law and gospel are essential if we are going to rightly understand these passages.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin consider how obedience is talked about in a context where law and gospel are confused. The guys talk about so much of what is preached is effectively easy-listening legalism and prosperity theology.

Resources:  
[Our episode on What Is-and Is Not-the Gospel?](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel/)  
[Our episode on Law/Gospel Distinction](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/law-gospel-distinction/)  
[Our episode on Why the Gospel Terrifies Christians](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/why-the-gospel-terrifies-christians/)

https://youtu.be/5nmMk0cdWJo

---

### Left Behind? (A Conversation on Eschatology)

*Published: March 23, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/left-behind-a-conversation-on-eschatology*
*Tags: End Times, Eschatology, premillennialism*

Jon and Justin have a discussion on views of eschatology and how it has affected modern biblical interpretation. Do historical Dispensational views contradict the clear teaching of Scripture on the atoning work of Christ? Is one's view on eschatology a measure of orthodoxy? Should our views of eschatology drive the rest of our theology, or is it the other way around?  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk in more depth about eschatology and hermeneutics. What should guide us in formulating our views on eschatology?  
  
Resources:  
[Our episode on "Is Your Theological System Any Good?"](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/is-your-theological-system-any-good/)  
["A Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddlebarger](https://amzn.to/36oa02d)  
  
https://youtu.be/WIJYXylbexM

---

### Do John Piper and Doug Wilson Obscure Faith Alone?

*Published: March 15, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/do-john-piper-and-doug-wilson-obscure-faith-alone*
*Tags: Doug Wilson, Federal Vision, Final Justification, John Piper*

Do John Piper and Doug Wilson Obscure Faith Alone? Here is how we approach this question in today's episode.

Every generation has to come to grips with the gospel. The imputation of the righteousness of Christ to sinners--as our whole and only righteousness--has often been under assault in the history of the church. It is in our day in the form of the Federal Vision and the teaching of final justification. Jon and Justin engage with both of these errors today in an effort to clarify and defend the heart of the gospel, which is the righteousness of Christ counted to sinners.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin go into more depth on the Federal Vision and then contend for the importance of confessions of faith, as well as the safety provided by a sound theological framework.

Resources:  
[Podcasts from Mid-America Reformed Seminary on Federal Vision](https://www.midamerica.edu/podcasts/mid-america-reformed-seminarys-round-table/108/federal-vision-what-is-it)  
[R. Scott Clark on Federal Vision](https://heidelblog.net/2018/08/resources-on-the-federal-vision-theology/)  
[Our episode on final justification (live from CA)](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/live-qa-on-final-justification-mark-jones/)  
[Our episode on how the gospel terrifies Christians](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/why-the-gospel-terrifies-christians/)

https://youtu.be/Z7tlAGv8c3k

---

### Repenting of Repentance

*Published: March 9, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/repenting-of-repentance*
*Tags: repent, Repentance*

Repentance is a threatening word for many in the church. It shouldn't be. Repentance is often taught and discussed in a way that is unhelpful. In this episode, Jon and Justin consider repentance from a biblical and Reformed perspective. God is the one who repents us. Repentance, at its heart, is an agreement with God and a siding with God against our sin. The turning we do in repentance is always a turning to Christ. And, it is possible to be repentant even in the midst of ongoing sin.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue to talk about repentance and ways in which discussion of the topic typically goes off the rails. Rather than weaponizing repentance and sanctification, there is a better way.

Resources:  
[Our episodes on Lordship Salvation](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/a-critique-of-lordship-salvation/)  
[A Critique of Lordship SalvationWhy I left Lordship Salvation ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thtTV5hv41k&ab%5Fchannel=Theocast-RestinChrist)[Our episodes on Calvinism](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/product/introduction-to-calvinism/)  
[Our episode on how pietism ruins good works](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/how-pietism-ruins-good-works/)

https://youtu.be/sK3p4BXcHEU

---

### What Robs Us of Joy?

*Published: March 2, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-robs-us-of-joy*
*Tags: joy*

Building off of last week's episode, when we find no joy or rest in our religion, we tend to seek it elsewhere. Christians are prone to clutter their lives will all kinds of things that might be good--but they end up keeping us from the things that will truly bring us joy. On top of this, we naturally think that we need to do things to find rest, when, in reality, we rest in order to do. Jon and Justin talk about all of this on today's episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk personally about leaving pietism and about the spiritual abuse that even occurs in some environments. The guys close by considering how Jesus, himself, is the gospel.

Resources:  
[Our episodes on the quest for religious experience](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/the-quest-for-religious-experience/)  
[Our episode on leaving pietism](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/leavingpietism/)  
[Our episode on how pietism ruins good works](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/how-pietism-ruins-good-works-sr/)

https://youtu.be/zqpNn3utVBs

---

### The Quest for Religious Experience

*Published: February 23, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-quest-for-religious-experience*

Is the Christian life one where believers move from spiritual experience to spiritual experience? Or from triumph to triumph? Or is the Christian life one where we learn to trust Christ in the midst of weakness and the battle against sin? What does it mean to be satisfied in Christ? Jon and Justin seek to answer these questions and consider how the quest to find true religion in anything subjective leaves us unsettled and exhausted.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk personally about what a subjective emphasis in religion tends to produce--and then the guys turn to consider how the gifts of God to us don't have anything to do with us.

Resources:  
[Our episodes on the implications of covenant theology](https://theocast.castos.com/episodes/un-perplexing-the-old-testament-covenant-theology-1)  
[Our episode on law/gospel](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/law-gospel-distinction/)  
[Our episode on theology of the cross](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/take-up-your-cross/)  
[Our episode on "More Than a Feeling"](https://theocast.castos.com/episodes/more-than-a-feeling-1)

https://youtu.be/Z6qS-NjPzkU

---

### Faith Without Works Is Dead (James 2)

*Published: February 16, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/faith-without-works-is-dead-james-2*

In this episode, Jon and Justin consider James 2, and in particular, the apostles' assertion that faith without works is dead. How should we understand this in the context of the entire letter of James? How has our quest for personal religious experience clouded our understanding of a passage like James 2? What are the good works we should be concerned with? And how is it that the commands of God are not burdensome? The guys discuss all this and more.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk more about the clear emphasis of the New Testament that the saints love one another. The guys also touch on the confusion that exists around good works in the church today.  
  
Resources:  
[Jon Moffitt's sermons in James ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48xOcx7-Bg0&list=PL1Va3nlqav0VS2QvxIItLdCwW%5FVReyIYf&index=10&ab%5Fchannel=GraceReformedChurch)[Our episode on pietism ruining good works](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/the-law-the-gospel-and-sanctification/)  
[Our episode on the law, gospel, and sanctification](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/the-law-the-gospel-and-sanctification/)  
[Our episode on sanctification not being about us](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/your-sanctification-is-not-for-you/)  
  
https://youtu.be/wYwO94izSv0

---

### Christian, You Are Not on Parole

*Published: February 9, 2022 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/christian-you-are-not-on-parole*
*Tags: Final Justification, Lordship Salvation*

As a Christian, do you ever feel like you are on probation or even on parole? As though you've been set free from prison, but now you need to do well enough to be finally free from fear and the threat of punishment? Many of us feel this way. Many in the church talk this way. Jon and Justin consider justification and the finished work of Christ--and what that means for the Christian life in today's episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about final justification and why it is harmful. Then, the guys move on to consider being a fruitful Christian, as well as the writing of John Owen. Enjoy!

Resources:  
[Our episode on the law, the gospel, and sanctification](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/the-law-the-gospel-and-sanctification/)  
[Our episode on why the gospel terrifies Christians](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/why-the-gospel-terrifies-christians/)  
[Our episode on more than forgiven](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/more-than-forgiven/)

https://youtu.be/zl\_E-Wb\_sOU

---

### How Pietism Ruins Good Works

*Published: January 27, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-pietism-ruins-good-works*
*Tags: Good Works, Pietism*

When we preach the gospel, there are often objections. One of the most common is, "Yeah, but what about good works?" In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about good works from a confessional perspective. What are good works? Who and what are they for? Why do we do them? How do we do them? The guys answer these questions and consider how pietism has damaged our thinking about good works.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin consider how pietism has made us less effective in doing biblical good works for the good of neighbor and honor of God. The guys also talk about how the contemporary church has much more in common with the medieval church than many would like to admit.

Resources:  
[Our book: Rest](/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook)  
[What is Peitism?](https://youtu.be/duvvK91%5FDGo)  
[Leaving pietism](https://wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/leavingpietism/)  
[Our episode on spiritual disciplines Series on Spiritual Disciplines](https://youtu.be/MNLsxbBxR-4)

https://youtu.be/19OhlchARt0

---

### Why the Gospel Terrifies Christians

*Published: January 19, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-the-gospel-terrifies-christians*
*Tags: Gospel, law gospel distinction, Pietism*

It sounds a little crazy to say that the gospel terrifies Christians. But it clearly does. Christians are prone to qualify the grace of God in Christ. Christians are prone to hedge on justification by faith alone. At times, Christians can even be unsettled by the preaching of Christ from all of Scripture. Why are these things so? Jon and Justin consider history, fear-based theology, pietism, law/gospel confusion, and Christ-centered preaching in today's episode.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue the conversation on why the gospel is frightening for Christians. The guys answer some potential objections to a reformed understanding of the sufficiency of Christ.  
  
Resources:  
[FREE Ebook](/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook)  
[Our episodes on Lordship](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/a-critique-of-lordship-salvation/)  
[Our episodes on pietism](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/leaving-pietism-transcript/)  
[Our episode on law/gospel](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rcgz6guBsug

---

### If I Knew Then What I Know Now

*Published: January 12, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now*

Today's episode is a little different than normal. Jon and Justin talk personally and autobiographically about their pilgrimage into finding rest--from a confessional and covenantal perspective. If you have been listening to Theocast for some time, we hope this encourages you. If you are newer, this will be a good and personal introduction to a number of the things we regularly discuss. Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin hone in on the Christian life--and how a confessional perspective is completely different than that of pietism.

https://youtu.be/Mvp4Wpfeezw

---

### This World Is a Sinking Ship

*Published: January 5, 2022 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/this-world-is-a-sinking-ship*
*Tags: suffering*

We all tend to hope in things of this world that will ultimately disappoint us. Our anger and frustration and despair make this abundantly clear. Jon and Justin talk about some of these things we tend to hope in--and how the church, at points, has only encouraged us to do so. At the end of it all, peace, rest, and hope can only be found in Jesus Christ and the promises God has made to us in him.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk more about how we tend to place our hope in things that cannot deliver. The guys also consider the theology of the cross and how we need to constantly remind one another of the hope we have in Christ.  
  
Resources:  
[Our episode on the theology of the cross](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-is-the-theology-of-glory-vs-the-theology-of-the-cross/)  
[Our episode on Two Kingdom doctrine](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/two-kingdoms-with-david-vandrunen/)  
[Our episode on the purpose of the church](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/have-we-missed-the-point-of-church/)  
[Our episode on the cravings of the flesh](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-cravings-of-the-flesh-transcript/)  
  
https://youtu.be/zHTzqBGYozA

---

### Christmas is Scandalous (with 1517)

*Published: December 21, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/christmas-is-scandalous-with-1517*
*Tags: 1517.org, Christmas*

In today’s episode, Jon and Justin have a conversation with friends from 1517 on the scandal of Christmas. We grow accustomed to talking about God becoming a man in order to suffer and die to save his people. But that is shocking news! Who would have ever planned salvation this way? We certainly would not have. But God did. The group discusses the humanity of Jesus, the purpose of the incarnation, the struggle of the disciples to understand the mission of Christ, as well as the point of Christmas.

Podcast: 

[30 Minutes in the New Testament](https://www.1517.org/podcasts/30-minutes-in-the-new-testament) \- Chad Bird & Daniel Emry Price

[40 Minutes in the Old Testament](https://www.1517.org/podcasts/40-minutes-in-the-old-testament) \- Eric Sorensen & Daniel Emry Price

---

### Mercy for Those Who Doubt

*Published: December 15, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/mercy-for-those-who-doubt*
*Tags: Assurance*

In today's episode, Jon and Justin consider two kinds of people: the people who are arrogant in their sin and do not think they need mercy; and the people who doubt and struggle wondering if there is in fact mercy for them. The guys talk about the law and the gospel, church discipline, and the posture of God toward the weak.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk further about observations they have made in the church regarding those who doubt and those who are arrogant in their sin. The guys get into church discipline, as well as how pastors have failed to rightly divide the law and the gospel.

Resources:  
[Our episode on the cravings of the flesh](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/cravings-of-the-flesh/)  
[Our episode on law/gospel](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction/)  
[Our episode on the dark side of Christianity](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-dark-side-of-christianity-2/)  
[Our FREE ebook on "Rest"](/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht0j633QcPs

---

### Can't Believe I Did It Again

*Published: December 8, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/cant-believe-i-did-it-again*
*Tags: ongoing sin struggle, simul justus et peccator*

We all battle besetting, habitual sin. The normal experience of the Christian in this fallen world is to battle against the corruption of our flesh. This war will go on until we die or Christ returns. We struggle to process this battle, though. We are often discouraged. And the church hasn't always helped. In this episode, Jon and Justin have a historical, theological, and biblical discussion on the battle against the flesh and the hope of Christ.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin answer some potential objections. They also consider how the grace that justifies is the grace that sanctifies, as well as the Christian's need for the church.

Resources:  
[Our video on habitual sin](https://youtu.be/jjVYOXV5crs)  
[Our episode on the cravings of the flesh](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/cravings-of-the-flesh/)  
[Our episode on pietism](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/leavingpietism/)  
[Our episode on biblicism](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/biblicists-beware/)  
[Our episode on law/gospel](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction/)  
[Our book on assurance, "Safe"](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/product/safe-paperback/) 

https://youtu.be/YP3kMUBwg4w

---

### Narnia, the Reformation, and Hopelessness

*Published: December 1, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/narnia-the-reformation-and-hopelessness*
*Tags: Resting in Christ*

Many of us, if we are honest, often live lives characterized by fear and hopelessness. This is the plight common to fallen man, true. But how has the church failed to help the saints have hope and peace? Jon and Justin talk about how a recovery of sound doctrine and of a confessional, otherworldly perspective is essential for our hope, peace, and rest.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin consider some of the most significant issues of doctrine that the saints need to be acquainted with. These include: a confessional perspective, law/gospel distinction, uses of the law, and covenant theology.  
  
Resources:  
[Our three episodes on implications of covenant theology](https://youtu.be/AwajhpDAT6c)  
[Our episode on law/gospel](https://youtu.be/EMSfwPUuuVk)  
[Our episode on "Have We Missed the Point of Church?"](https://youtu.be/JLHz0Cgga4s)  
  
https://youtu.be/swHr3ufjC3A

---

### The Resting Heart Rate of the Christian Life

*Published: November 17, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-resting-heart-rate-of-the-christian-life*
*Tags: Resting in Christ, Union in Christ*

What is the resting heart rate of the Christian life? From a biblical and Reformed perspective, it is union with Christ. By faith, we are in Christ, and everything that is ours is his. Through union with Christ, we are justified, sanctified, and glorified. And, we are also united to one another in Christ. God has given us the church, the ministry of the word, and the sacraments. These, too, are about our union with Jesus. Jon and Justin consider all of these things in today's episode.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin continue to talk about the inherently corporate nature of the Christian life, as well as how union with Christ produces unity in the church.  
  
Resources:  
[Our episode on More Than Forgiven](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/more-than-forgiven/)  
  
https://youtu.be/p6BIzl4ca20

---

### Have We Missed the Point of Church?

*Published: November 10, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/have-we-missed-the-point-of-church*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: Purpose of the Church*

Have we missed the point of church? From a Reformed, confessional perspective, it seems we have. In short, the point of church is the forgiveness of sins, the declaration of righteousness on account of Christ, and the fellowship of the saints. If these things are rightly understood, the question, "Why do you need the church?", answers itself. Jon and Justin consider all of this and how the church is the way God sustains his people in this life.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about plans for something called the Grace Reformed Network. The guys also consider more implications of a confessional perspective on church.  
  
Resources:  
Episode: [Pop Church Circus](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/pop-church-circus/)  
Episode: [Struggling with the Church](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/struggling-with-the-church/)  
  
https://youtu.be/JLHz0Cgga4s 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:02\]](#transcript-00-00-02-1) Hi, this is Jon.

[\[00:00:03\]](#transcript-00-00-03-2) Today on Theocast, we're going to have a serious conversation about have we missed the point of the church.

[\[00:00:08\]](#transcript-00-00-08-3) I'll just go ahead and say this in the beginning: is the church the primary means that God uses to strengthen and build us up in our faith.

[\[00:00:17\]](#transcript-00-00-17-4) We're going to make the argument that, according to scripture, yes, stay tuned.

[\[00:00:22\]](#transcript-00-00-22-5) If you'd like to help support Theocast, you can do that by leaving us a review on iTunes and subscribing on your favorite podcast app.

[\[00:00:29\]](#transcript-00-00-29-6) You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

[\[00:00:32\]](#transcript-00-00-32-7) Plus, we have a Facebook group if you'd like to join the conversation there.

[\[00:00:36\]](#transcript-00-00-36-8) Thanks for listening.

[\[00:00:48\]](#transcript-00-00-48-9) Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ, conversations about the Christian life from a reformed and pastoral perspective.

[\[00:00:57\]](#transcript-00-00-57-10) Your hosts today are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:01:02\]](#transcript-00-01-02-11) And I'm Jon Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

[\[00:01:07\]](#transcript-00-01-07-12) It's good to be here with you today.

[\[00:01:09\]](#transcript-00-01-09-13) There are some admittance of listeners who have been listening to us for a year and then realized they lived in the same town as us because they kept skipping the intro.

[\[00:01:18\]](#transcript-00-01-18-14) So, if that was you, you might want to go back and find out that we live in the same town as you.

[\[00:01:22\]](#transcript-00-01-22-15) You never know.

[\[00:01:23\]](#transcript-00-01-23-16) You never know.

[\[00:01:25\]](#transcript-00-01-25-17) So, Justin, it's good to have you.

[\[00:01:28\]](#transcript-00-01-28-18) You were traveling last week, so it's good to have you back in your normal and my normal habitat in my normal environment.

[\[00:01:34\]](#transcript-00-01-34-19) Yeah.

[\[00:01:34\]](#transcript-00-01-34-20) That's right.

[\[00:01:35\]](#transcript-00-01-35-21) I recorded on the road last week.

[\[00:01:37\]](#transcript-00-01-37-22) It was good.

[\[00:01:38\]](#transcript-00-01-38-23) It was a good recording.

[\[00:01:39\]](#transcript-00-01-39-24) Thank you.

[\[00:01:39\]](#transcript-00-01-39-25) It's Cross Road Show.

[\[00:01:40\]](#transcript-00-01-40-26) That's right.

[\[00:01:41\]](#transcript-00-01-41-27) If you haven't listened to that, go back and listen to it.

[\[00:01:43\]](#transcript-00-01-43-28) Justin, today's probably a subject that you and I are going to have to try our best to keep our blood pressures down.

[\[00:01:48\]](#transcript-00-01-48-29) It's something that we do for a living, but it's also something we are extremely passionate about, not only the history of it, but the function of it.

[\[00:01:56\]](#transcript-00-01-56-30) So tell us what are we talking about today.

[\[00:01:59\]](#transcript-00-01-59-31) And keeping our blood pressure down, meaning that we just care a ton about this.

[\[00:02:03\]](#transcript-00-02-03-32) That's right.

[\[00:02:03\]](#transcript-00-02-03-33) And we're passionate.

[\[00:02:05\]](#transcript-00-02-05-34) We're passionate about today's conversation on a number of levels, and that'll become clear.

[\[00:02:10\]](#transcript-00-02-10-35) So, the title of the episode, you've already seen it, because I assume even if you skip the intros, you do at least look at what the title is.

[\[00:02:17\]](#transcript-00-02-17-36) And so, the title is: Have We Missed the Point of Church?

[\[00:02:22\]](#transcript-00-02-22-37) And our answer to that, speaking from the perspective of evangelicalism in the States, is that in many ways, yes, we have missed the point of church.

[\[00:02:31\]](#transcript-00-02-31-38) Roman Bury the lead.

[\[00:02:33\]](#transcript-00-02-33-39) I think if you were to ask the average evangelical, what is the point of church?

[\[00:02:38\]](#transcript-00-02-38-40) And by that, we mean what is the point of the church as an institution, or even what is the point of church gathered?

[\[00:02:44\]](#transcript-00-02-44-41) I think you would get a whole host of answers, and the vast majority of those would be not good.

[\[00:02:52\]](#transcript-00-02-52-42) And so it is our conviction as confessional Protestants, in our case, as confessional 1689 London Baptist Confession guys, that the point of the church, the thing that makes the church utterly unique, is the forgiveness of sins and the

[\[00:03:11\]](#transcript-00-03-11-43) declaration of righteousness on account of Christ alone.

[\[00:03:15\]](#transcript-00-03-15-44) And that everything that the church is about, everything the church is, everything that the church does flows from that thing.

[\[00:03:21\]](#transcript-00-03-21-45) And there are several implications of that that we're probably going to get to today.

[\[00:03:25\]](#transcript-00-03-25-46) But I think it in the ears of many people, Jon, to say that, like the only thing that is utterly unique about the church is that forgiveness, absolution, righteousness in Christ sounds reductionistic and honestly frightening.

[\[00:03:39\]](#transcript-00-03-39-47) And it's like, really?

[\[00:03:41\]](#transcript-00-03-41-48) Is that true?

[\[00:03:43\]](#transcript-00-03-43-49) And we're going to contend, yes, in fact, that is true.

[\[00:03:46\]](#transcript-00-03-46-50) And that everything that we do in the life of the church is centered on that.

[\[00:03:49\]](#transcript-00-03-49-51) And I think the reason this conversation matters so much to me, Jon, is that I know that you've had this experience too.

[\[00:03:54\]](#transcript-00-03-54-52) I have walked through this in my own life, but I have seen it in so many other people's lives where people have either misunderstood, and this is kind of even touching back on last week's episode on Deconstruction, where

[\[00:04:06\]](#transcript-00-04-06-53) people have had experiences in the church or experiences with Christianity where it's been about all of these other things that have been confusing, that have been exhausting.

[\[00:04:19\]](#transcript-00-04-19-54) It ends up in some way being about personal moral transformation or it ends up being about personal transformation to the end of societal transformation or maybe in some streams, it's just unashamedly about societal transformation, you know, through political

[\[00:04:34\]](#transcript-00-04-34-55) and social endeavors.

[\[00:04:35\]](#transcript-00-04-35-56) And so people have gotten the point of the church confused.

[\[00:04:40\]](#transcript-00-04-40-57) It's had all kinds of clutter thrown on top of it.

[\[00:04:43\]](#transcript-00-04-43-58) And I think when we begin to discover this reality, that the church gathered and the church as an institution is about the forgiveness of sins, we understand why we need it, and it stirs our affections for it.

[\[00:05:00\]](#transcript-00-05-00-59) Like, if you're struggling to answer the question, why do I need the church?

[\[00:05:04\]](#transcript-00-05-04-60) I would humbly suggest to you: if you are a Christian and you're struggling to answer the question, why do I need the church?

[\[00:05:10\]](#transcript-00-05-10-61) You have misunderstood the point of church.

[\[00:05:12\]](#transcript-00-05-12-62) Because when you understand the point of church as a Christian, you will not have to struggle to answer that question because the question answers itself.

[\[00:05:22\]](#transcript-00-05-22-63) And if you're listening to me talk right now, and you're thinking, Brother, I don't know what in the world you're talking about.

[\[00:05:26\]](#transcript-00-05-26-64) I've never felt that way in my life.

[\[00:05:28\]](#transcript-00-05-28-65) Keep listening, and we're going to do our best over the next 35 minutes or so to try to persuade you that what we're saying is the case.

[\[00:05:35\]](#transcript-00-05-35-66) So there we go.

[\[00:05:38\]](#transcript-00-05-38-67) Jon, whatever you want to say, brother, I'm sure it's going to be good, and I'll pick up on it and try not to trample on you.

[\[00:05:44\]](#transcript-00-05-44-68) No, that's a great introduction.

[\[00:05:46\]](#transcript-00-05-46-69) I have so much compassion for people that have experienced abusive church anemic churches, you know, we talked about An anemic gospel reading the gospel, right?

[\[00:05:58\]](#transcript-00-05-58-70) And then typically anemic churches produce anemic gospels.

[\[00:06:02\]](#transcript-00-06-02-71) And if you've not heard that episode, I'd encourage you to listen.

[\[00:06:05\]](#transcript-00-06-05-72) Anemic Gospels produce anemic churches, too.

[\[00:06:07\]](#transcript-00-06-07-73) It goes both.

[\[00:06:08\]](#transcript-00-06-08-74) Better way of saying that.

[\[00:06:10\]](#transcript-00-06-10-75) And one of the mission statements I tell our church almost weekly, is that our goal is to reach the lost, the confused, and the abused by the church.

[\[00:06:21\]](#transcript-00-06-21-76) And unfortunately, because of the sinfulness of men, the arrogance of men, we, and this is not surprising because Paul warns Timothy this is going to happen.

[\[00:06:36\]](#transcript-00-06-36-77) There's going to be people with itching ears, and you're going to have false teachers and preachers that come in and ravenous wolves that come in and hurt the sheep.

[\[00:06:43\]](#transcript-00-06-43-78) So it's not a shock to Justin and I that there are churches out there, large amount of churches, and large churches that are hurting and confusing Christians.

[\[00:06:53\]](#transcript-00-06-53-79) So, if you're listening to this and you love the message of the gospel, you're loving what you're hearing about resting in Christ, but your experience in Christ's church has nothing positive to it.

[\[00:07:05\]](#transcript-00-07-05-80) First of all, I am sorry, and I apologize on the behalf of all Christians that we have not served you well in that area.

[\[00:07:15\]](#transcript-00-07-15-81) So, in many ways, Justin and I are asking you to allow us to walk you through scripture and the history of our faith to show you that your experience is unfortunately not what was intended.

[\[00:07:32\]](#transcript-00-07-32-82) God never intended the church to be a place where there was confusion, abuse, and hurt.

[\[00:07:38\]](#transcript-00-07-38-83) But he always intended the church to be, as Paul says, a place of unity and peace.

[\[00:07:44\]](#transcript-00-07-44-84) He literally says in Ephesians chapter 4 that we are to be eager to maintain the bond of peace.

[\[00:07:49\]](#transcript-00-07-49-85) And when people think about church, Justin, they don't use the word peace and they definitely don't use the word unity.

[\[00:07:56\]](#transcript-00-07-56-86) Not their experience has been.

[\[00:07:57\]](#transcript-00-07-57-87) I have people, I've had people describe church to me, and as they describe it, I reinterpret it as the most lonely place on the planet.

[\[00:08:06\]](#transcript-00-08-06-88) They're gathered with people, and yet they don't know them because they're superficial plastic people, and you cannot be real.

[\[00:08:15\]](#transcript-00-08-15-89) Because if you're real, you're going to get trampled.

[\[00:08:19\]](#transcript-00-08-19-90) And all you're offered is not Christ.

[\[00:08:22\]](#transcript-00-08-22-91) All you're offered is not how to rest in Christ.

[\[00:08:26\]](#transcript-00-08-26-92) What you're offered is just how to be a better human being in the flesh.

[\[00:08:30\]](#transcript-00-08-30-93) Or a better human 3.

[\[00:08:31\]](#transcript-00-08-31-94) Yeah, you're offered Galatians 3.

[\[00:08:33\]](#transcript-00-08-33-95) Oh, yes, faith alone, faith alone, faith alone.

[\[00:08:36\]](#transcript-00-08-36-96) But now, here's how to do works of the flesh.

[\[00:08:38\]](#transcript-00-08-38-97) And Paul says, Who bewitched you?

[\[00:08:40\]](#transcript-00-08-40-98) And a lot of churches, and I know this is a broad statement and dangerous one, but if you listen to the message, it's grace alone for salvation and flesh alone for sanctification.

[\[00:08:52\]](#transcript-00-08-52-99) And that's what Paul says: bewitched.

[\[00:08:54\]](#transcript-00-08-54-100) Yeah.

[\[00:08:56\]](#transcript-00-08-56-101) So I'm going to lead off my comments.

[\[00:09:01\]](#transcript-00-09-01-102) I mean, I know I did the introduction, but you know what I mean.

[\[00:09:02\]](#transcript-00-09-02-103) I'm going to lead off my comments with this because I just want to be as clear as I can be about this.

[\[00:09:10\]](#transcript-00-09-10-104) What is the point of church?

[\[00:09:12\]](#transcript-00-09-12-105) Why do I need the church?

[\[00:09:14\]](#transcript-00-09-14-106) I'm just going to speak personally as a believer.

[\[00:09:15\]](#transcript-00-09-15-107) Yeah, I'm pastor, but I'm a Christian, right?

[\[00:09:17\]](#transcript-00-09-17-108) I'm trusting Christ for my righteousness and for forgiveness of sins.

[\[00:09:21\]](#transcript-00-09-21-109) And so I need the church because the church is where, precisely where I can find the forgiveness of sins in Jesus' name.

[\[00:09:29\]](#transcript-00-09-29-110) It is precisely where I can find absolution of guilt in Jesus' name.

[\[00:09:34\]](#transcript-00-09-34-111) It's exactly where I can find the declaration of righteousness on account of Christ for me.

[\[00:09:40\]](#transcript-00-09-40-112) And it's the only place that I can find those things.

[\[00:09:43\]](#transcript-00-09-43-113) And so I go to church.

[\[00:09:44\]](#transcript-00-09-44-114) I need the church because it is there that I find forgiveness, absolution, and righteousness.

[\[00:09:50\]](#transcript-00-09-50-115) And it is there that I am given the Lord Jesus Christ in word and sacrament.

[\[00:09:55\]](#transcript-00-09-55-116) So, corporate worship, right?

[\[00:09:57\]](#transcript-00-09-57-117) I mean, I'm talking in corporate worship terms.

[\[00:09:59\]](#transcript-00-09-59-118) I'm talking in ordinary means of grace terms right now on purpose.

[\[00:10:03\]](#transcript-00-10-03-119) When I come to church on Sunday, what is it that I need?

[\[00:10:06\]](#transcript-00-10-06-120) I need the word of God preached.

[\[00:10:08\]](#transcript-00-10-08-121) And in the word of God being rightly preached, I need Jesus preached to me.

[\[00:10:13\]](#transcript-00-10-13-122) I need Christ preached over me that he has satisfied for my sins and has accomplished and fulfilled the law for me, and therefore I have peace with God.

[\[00:10:22\]](#transcript-00-10-22-123) I need that desperately.

[\[00:10:23\]](#transcript-00-10-23-124) I need to be reminded of that reality.

[\[00:10:25\]](#transcript-00-10-25-125) I need the right administration of the Lord's table and baptism, which is all about my union with Christ by faith.

[\[00:10:31\]](#transcript-00-10-31-126) I need that.

[\[00:10:32\]](#transcript-00-10-32-127) But alongside that, what I desperately need is not just a general kind of place I go where forgiveness and absolution and righteousness are preached and given to sinners, but I need to go to the place where I can

[\[00:10:49\]](#transcript-00-10-49-128) fellowship with other people who have been forgiven on account of Christ.

[\[00:10:52\]](#transcript-00-10-52-129) Because I need that fellowship with my brothers and sisters, because they too, like me, we are pilgrims in this world on our way to our ultimate home.

[\[00:11:02\]](#transcript-00-11-02-130) Right.

[\[00:11:03\]](#transcript-00-11-03-131) And so, again, for me, I'm just as I'm processing this, I'm like, why do I need the church?

[\[00:11:08\]](#transcript-00-11-08-132) It's like, no, I want to turn that on its head and ask you, you know, proverbially, you out there that may think you don't need the church, how do you think you're going to live without this as a

[\[00:11:18\]](#transcript-00-11-18-133) believer?

[\[00:11:19\]](#transcript-00-11-19-134) Like, if you don't have a place to go where Christ is given to you, where you are exhorted, receive what Christ has done for you, where you're reminded that He's accomplished your salvation and it's over.

[\[00:11:31\]](#transcript-00-11-31-135) If you don't have that, and if you don't have a place to go to be with other people who've been united to Christ that you have also been united to?

[\[00:11:38\]](#transcript-00-11-38-136) How are you going to make it?

[\[00:11:40\]](#transcript-00-11-40-137) Is the question.

[\[00:11:41\]](#transcript-00-11-41-138) I think the burden of proof lies there.

[\[00:11:43\]](#transcript-00-11-43-139) And so, what's the point of church?

[\[00:11:44\]](#transcript-00-11-44-140) In some senses, it's forgiveness and fellowship.

[\[00:11:47\]](#transcript-00-11-47-141) And it is the only place in the world where I can find either.

[\[00:11:52\]](#transcript-00-11-52-142) Yeah.

[\[00:11:53\]](#transcript-00-11-53-143) You know?

[\[00:11:54\]](#transcript-00-11-54-144) Justin, let me walk this backwards.

[\[00:11:55\]](#transcript-00-11-55-145) And please, we said, we said this earlier, and it's a little punchy, so

[\[00:12:01\]](#transcript-00-12-01-146) it'll get the blood flowing early in this podcast for the listener and for us.

[\[00:12:06\]](#transcript-00-12-06-147) So, Justin, it's safe to say, I'm not, I'm, uh, just answer yes to all of this.

[\[00:12:10\]](#transcript-00-12-10-148) You know, play the game with me.

[\[00:12:12\]](#transcript-00-12-12-149) And then

[\[00:12:14\]](#transcript-00-12-14-150) we'll unlush it.

[\[00:12:15\]](#transcript-00-12-15-151) It's safe to say, I wrote these things down, so I don't forget.

[\[00:12:17\]](#transcript-00-12-17-152) It's safe to say, all spiritual growth happens through the Word of God.

[\[00:12:22\]](#transcript-00-12-22-153) That's everyone would agree with that.

[\[00:12:24\]](#transcript-00-12-24-154) All spiritual growth.

[\[00:12:26\]](#transcript-00-12-26-155) It's safe to say that it's impossible to grow without the Word of God.

[\[00:12:31\]](#transcript-00-12-31-156) Yes.

[\[00:12:32\]](#transcript-00-12-32-157) That would be safe to say.

[\[00:12:33\]](#transcript-00-12-33-158) Okay.

[\[00:12:33\]](#transcript-00-12-33-159) I don't think it was controversial.

[\[00:12:34\]](#transcript-00-12-34-160) Yeah.

[\[00:12:35\]](#transcript-00-12-35-161) No, it's not controversial yet.

[\[00:12:37\]](#transcript-00-12-37-162) Now, that means that the content then of the Word of God matters because we then have to pay attention to how because the Bible says a lot, Bible says a lot, right?

[\[00:12:49\]](#transcript-00-12-49-163) Bible says a lot about pretty big.

[\[00:12:51\]](#transcript-00-12-51-164) It's mostly narrative, mostly describing God's redemption of sinners.

[\[00:12:56\]](#transcript-00-12-56-165) And then, towards the end, we get an explanation of our union.

[\[00:13:01\]](#transcript-00-13-01-166) You'd already said it, our union with Christ.

[\[00:13:03\]](#transcript-00-13-03-167) Just so In our union with each other in the church.

[\[00:13:06\]](#transcript-00-13-06-168) Well, it's going to get there.

[\[00:13:07\]](#transcript-00-13-07-169) So, we understand.

[\[00:13:08\]](#transcript-00-13-08-170) No, it's fine.

[\[00:13:09\]](#transcript-00-13-09-171) We understand union in marriage.

[\[00:13:11\]](#transcript-00-13-11-172) So, in the Old Testament, the two shall become one flesh, right?

[\[00:13:15\]](#transcript-00-13-15-173) So, we understand that union where the two are now brought together.

[\[00:13:20\]](#transcript-00-13-20-174) this good, healthy reformed tradition of understanding union in Christ, which those outside of the reformed faith would agree with this.

[\[00:13:29\]](#transcript-00-13-29-175) So it's not just a reformed doctrine, but they have promoted it heavily, meaning that you, as you're you as an individual are united in spirit with Christ and you receive all benefits of it.

[\[00:13:44\]](#transcript-00-13-44-176) Meaning that when God looks at you, He looks at you with the righteousness of Jesus.

[\[00:13:49\]](#transcript-00-13-49-177) He looks with you with the purity of Jesus, meaning that you've been cleansed.

[\[00:13:52\]](#transcript-00-13-52-178) He looks at you as the Son, adopted.

[\[00:13:55\]](#transcript-00-13-55-179) So you aren't Jesus, but you are the adopted one.

[\[00:13:57\]](#transcript-00-13-57-180) Therefore, He looks at you.

[\[00:13:59\]](#transcript-00-13-59-181) Literally, Jesus says in John, Lord, help them understand that you love me, you love them as much as you love me.

[\[00:14:07\]](#transcript-00-14-07-182) So we receive because we're united, clothed is another way of saying that.

[\[00:14:11\]](#transcript-00-14-11-183) We are one because of that, we receive all of the benefits.

[\[00:14:16\]](#transcript-00-14-16-184) Now, that's the description of your experience.

[\[00:14:19\]](#transcript-00-14-19-185) Then, God, in his word, says, okay, to help you understand and grow in that knowledge, grow in that awareness.

[\[00:14:27\]](#transcript-00-14-27-186) Paul will say things like, walk by the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

[\[00:14:32\]](#transcript-00-14-32-187) He's talking about living life in the awareness of your union, living life clothed in the righteousness of Jesus.

[\[00:14:40\]](#transcript-00-14-40-188) Living in a way that is commensurate with your union with Christ is another way to put it.

[\[00:14:45\]](#transcript-00-14-45-189) Yeah.

[\[00:14:45\]](#transcript-00-14-45-190) Right.

[\[00:14:46\]](#transcript-00-14-46-191) So now, if we are true theologians, if we're true Bible people, we're Bible thumpers, like we, I only believe what the Bible says.

[\[00:14:55\]](#transcript-00-14-55-192) And we agree to the statement that all spiritual growth happens through the Word of God.

[\[00:14:59\]](#transcript-00-14-59-193) The Word of God plainly states that spiritual growth, all right, here comes the controversial one, Justin.

[\[00:15:05\]](#transcript-00-15-05-194) Spiritual growth, I will say, primarily and most likely only happens through a biblical local assembly called the body of Christ or Church.

[\[00:15:17\]](#transcript-00-15-17-195) Can I go?

[\[00:15:18\]](#transcript-00-15-18-196) I'm going to agree with what you said.

[\[00:15:20\]](#transcript-00-15-20-197) I'm going to go turn up the temperature, man.

[\[00:15:22\]](#transcript-00-15-22-198) So I would say that the primary way we grow spiritually is through the ordinary means of grace administered in the assembly.

[\[00:15:34\]](#transcript-00-15-34-199) So, the ordinary means of grace, primarily being the right administration of the word of God, the preaching of the word, and then the right administration of the sacraments, Lord's Supper, baptism in the gathered church.

[\[00:15:45\]](#transcript-00-15-45-200) Alongside those two things, you could add prayer, you could add song to that.

[\[00:15:51\]](#transcript-00-15-51-201) You know, the things we do when we assemble.

[\[00:15:53\]](#transcript-00-15-53-202) That is the primary way we grow spiritually.

[\[00:15:56\]](#transcript-00-15-56-203) I would say if you expand it, life in the church generally, if you expand it to those categories that I alluded to earlier, where you've got ordinary means of grace and you've got the fellowship of the saints, and

[\[00:16:07\]](#transcript-00-16-07-204) by that, I mean not just the gathered church, but our life in the body of Christ with other believers.

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-205) And by this, we mean hospitality.

[\[00:16:15\]](#transcript-00-16-15-206) By this, we mean, you know, spending time in groups or whatever.

[\[00:16:19\]](#transcript-00-16-19-207) By this, we mean just enjoying each other, that life together stuff.

[\[00:16:24\]](#transcript-00-16-24-208) I would say that if you combine the assembly and the ordinary means of grace and fellowship of the saints broadly, that is exclusively how we grow in the Christian life.

[\[00:16:33\]](#transcript-00-16-33-209) And that sounds insane to the modern evangelical ear, where we think that we grow alone.

[\[00:16:42\]](#transcript-00-16-42-210) And we think that me and God, me and Jesus' time, you know, I not that everybody loves this song, but there's a reason why I walk through the garden alone was so meaningful to so many people for so

[\[00:16:54\]](#transcript-00-16-54-211) long.

[\[00:16:54\]](#transcript-00-16-54-212) It's a terrible song because they were already alone in the church.

[\[00:16:58\]](#transcript-00-16-58-213) Well, and but it's like it's me and Jesus.

[\[00:17:01\]](#transcript-00-17-01-214) It's me and God.

[\[00:17:02\]](#transcript-00-17-02-215) It's me.

[\[00:17:02\]](#transcript-00-17-02-216) It's this individual thing.

[\[00:17:05\]](#transcript-00-17-05-217) It's about me individually, and it's about my intensity, my sincerity, my devotion, my whatever.

[\[00:17:11\]](#transcript-00-17-11-218) When in reality, no, the Christian life is inherently corporate and it's inherently church-shaped.

[\[00:17:19\]](#transcript-00-17-19-219) That's right.

[\[00:17:20\]](#transcript-00-17-20-220) Can I read two hours?

[\[00:17:20\]](#transcript-00-17-20-221) I'll die on that hill, bro.

[\[00:17:22\]](#transcript-00-17-22-222) Yeah, let me read two quotes real quick to argue that point and then throw it back to you.

[\[00:17:26\]](#transcript-00-17-26-223) This one's from Bovink, Herman Bovink, in Reform Dogmatics.

[\[00:17:29\]](#transcript-00-17-29-224) He says, God alone is the distributor of grace, and He alone can bind its distribution to the means ordained by Him.

[\[00:17:36\]](#transcript-00-17-36-225) He's arguing our point that God distributes grace for the sake of growth.

[\[00:17:42\]](#transcript-00-17-42-226) I mean, this is Galatians 3.

[\[00:17:44\]](#transcript-00-17-44-227) We'll get to it in a minute.

[\[00:17:45\]](#transcript-00-17-45-228) Then, this is our confession.

[\[00:17:46\]](#transcript-00-17-46-229) So, this is the Lena Baptist confession.

[\[00:17:48\]](#transcript-00-17-48-230) Just so you understand, this isn't new to us.

[\[00:17:49\]](#transcript-00-17-49-231) This is very old.

[\[00:17:50\]](#transcript-00-17-50-232) It says, The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the word,

[\[00:18:02\]](#transcript-00-18-02-233) by which also, and by administration of baptism as the Lord's Supper prayer and other means appointed by God, it is increased and strengthened.

[\[00:18:10\]](#transcript-00-18-10-234) Did you hear that?

[\[00:18:11\]](#transcript-00-18-11-235) Increased and strengthened.

[\[00:18:13\]](#transcript-00-18-13-236) It's the ordinary preaching of God's word and the assembling, the administration of baptism and the Lord's table and the congregation of prayer.

[\[00:18:21\]](#transcript-00-18-21-237) He doesn't mean individual prayer there.

[\[00:18:23\]](#transcript-00-18-23-238) He means a corporate because all of those are done corporately.

[\[00:18:26\]](#transcript-00-18-26-239) So, our confession for the last, you know, and the Westminster would agree with this for the last 400 years.

[\[00:18:31\]](#transcript-00-18-31-240) We've been arguing that the primary way our faith is strengthened and increased is not on an individual administration by ourselves alone with the word of God, but it's the gathered congregation.

[\[00:18:46\]](#transcript-00-18-46-241) And I think it's important that the confession here says it's the ordinary The ordinary way in which God uses this.

[\[00:18:54\]](#transcript-00-18-54-242) Now, Justin, and we had said this beforehand, I'm going to mention this now just as a little bit of a, you know, for those caveat.

[\[00:19:01\]](#transcript-00-19-01-243) There are extreme circumstances where Christians find themselves isolated, not by their own decisions, but because of circumstance.

[\[00:19:08\]](#transcript-00-19-08-244) And I believe that God gives extraordinary grace and administrates in extraordinary ways in those times.

[\[00:19:14\]](#transcript-00-19-14-245) But that's not the normal experience of the Christian life.

[\[00:19:17\]](#transcript-00-19-17-246) The way that I always frame that is: the Lord gives extraordinary grace and extraordinary circumstances.

[\[00:19:23\]](#transcript-00-19-23-247) And so that is not the norm, though.

[\[00:19:25\]](#transcript-00-19-25-248) Like, so again, if don't misunderstand us, for that Christian who's been literally imprisoned for being a Christian, you know, because they've right, or you know, because of persecution is not able to assemble or whatever.

[\[00:19:39\]](#transcript-00-19-39-249) That is not what we're talking about right now.

[\[00:19:41\]](#transcript-00-19-41-250) The Lord absolutely keeps his people and sustains his people with extraordinary grace in times such as that.

[\[00:19:47\]](#transcript-00-19-47-251) I mean, that's just how he is and how he operates.

[\[00:19:50\]](#transcript-00-19-50-252) But we're talking about the normal, you know, quote-unquote, normal life under the sun, the experience.

[\[00:19:55\]](#transcript-00-19-55-253) Certainly, I mean, if we're talking to primarily American Christians here or Western Christians in nations that are rightly understood to be Western democracies, right?

[\[00:20:05\]](#transcript-00-20-05-254) Where we can, yeah, might we experience some level of persecution at a societal level.

[\[00:20:10\]](#transcript-00-20-10-255) Okay, fine.

[\[00:20:10\]](#transcript-00-20-10-256) But are we are able to assemble regularly?

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-257) Yes, we are.

[\[00:20:15\]](#transcript-00-20-15-258) And we're able to assemble freely.

[\[00:20:17\]](#transcript-00-20-17-259) So we're talking about that kind of situation.

[\[00:20:20\]](#transcript-00-20-20-260) Yeah.

[\[00:20:20\]](#transcript-00-20-20-261) So I think I'll throw in one more.

[\[00:20:22\]](#transcript-00-20-22-262) Go ahead, please.

[\[00:20:23\]](#transcript-00-20-23-263) I'll throw one more in there.

[\[00:20:25\]](#transcript-00-20-25-264) And this one might cause us to go all kinds of places.

[\[00:20:27\]](#transcript-00-20-27-265) But Justin, one would feel guilty in modern-day times to miss a quiet time because they feel that that's the primary way in which God grows and sustains them, but they are not so

[\[00:20:43\]](#transcript-00-20-43-266) bothered when they miss a mealtime.

[\[00:20:45\]](#transcript-00-20-45-267) That's when we gather together.

[\[00:20:47\]](#transcript-00-20-47-268) And I find that upside down.

[\[00:20:51\]](#transcript-00-20-51-269) I find that the priority is in the wrong place.

[\[00:20:57\]](#transcript-00-20-57-270) And I don't fault the believer for this because most likely that's how they've been trained by their pastor or the culture.

[\[00:21:04\]](#transcript-00-21-04-271) We're here to say the prime, I mean, Hebrews literally says, Do not forsake the symbol of yourself to such as you is, or is such as you ease, as is the habit of some.

[\[00:21:13\]](#transcript-00-21-13-272) It's the habit of some.

[\[00:21:16\]](#transcript-00-21-16-273) You get me all worked up, and I'll have all kinds of bad English grammar.

[\[00:21:23\]](#transcript-00-21-23-274) I wish I was drinking Mountain Dew right now.

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-275) It's just water.

[\[00:21:26\]](#transcript-00-21-26-276) But my point of it is that we, some of the arguments, like we use Ephesians 4 constantly, but Ephesians 4:16 literally says, when the body functions properly, gathered together, by the way, underneath the administration of the preaching of

[\[00:21:40\]](#transcript-00-21-40-277) the elders and teachers in Ephesians 4:11, it says, when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love.

[\[00:21:47\]](#transcript-00-21-47-278) So there's this sense where, you know, I'm preaching through the book of James, and I think James has been highly misinterpreted and misapplied.

[\[00:21:56\]](#transcript-00-21-56-279) But my belief through the study of James is that James is arguing for unity and peace within the body, and he covers everything that is causing disunity and peace within the body.

[\[00:22:07\]](#transcript-00-22-07-280) And he is writing to them about their faith.

[\[00:22:10\]](#transcript-00-22-10-281) And they're saying, if you believe in Jesus, then the result of that, every single thing he says, Justin, has to do with what's distracting the body from unity and peace.

[\[00:22:22\]](#transcript-00-22-22-282) Every single one of them.

[\[00:22:23\]](#transcript-00-22-23-283) Well, it's just like it's Ephesians 4:30, you know, where the giving the devil a foothold in the church has everything to do with tearing each other to pieces with what we say.

[\[00:22:34\]](#transcript-00-22-34-284) Yeah.

[\[00:22:36\]](#transcript-00-22-36-285) Let me read this one part of James I think is helpful for us.

[\[00:22:40\]](#transcript-00-22-40-286) He says this: Who is wise in understanding?

[\[00:22:42\]](#transcript-00-22-42-287) This is James 3:13.

[\[00:22:44\]](#transcript-00-22-44-288) Who is wise in understanding among you?

[\[00:22:46\]](#transcript-00-22-46-289) But is good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.

[\[00:22:50\]](#transcript-00-22-50-290) But if you have bitterness and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth.

[\[00:22:57\]](#transcript-00-22-57-291) This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly and unspiritual and demonic.

[\[00:23:03\]](#transcript-00-23-03-292) For where jealousy and selfish ambition exists, there will be disorder and vile practice.

[\[00:23:10\]](#transcript-00-23-10-293) And he's making this so clear, but then in verse 17, he says this: But wisdom from above is pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy, and fruits, sorry, and good fruits, impartial and sincere.

[\[00:23:23\]](#transcript-00-23-23-294) And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

[\[00:23:28\]](#transcript-00-23-28-295) So, everything that James is arguing for here in his book is: this is how believers are to find, I mean, can we just say selfish ambition?

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-296) This should not exist.

[\[00:23:41\]](#transcript-00-23-41-297) Vile practices and disorder should not exist.

[\[00:23:43\]](#transcript-00-23-43-298) Let me just go back to chapter one.

[\[00:23:45\]](#transcript-00-23-45-299) This is what the very famous verse James says: if anyone lacks wisdom, which he just described what it was.

[\[00:23:51\]](#transcript-00-23-51-300) Let him ask of God who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given to him.

[\[00:23:58\]](#transcript-00-23-58-301) Here's what's interesting, Justin: is that when we hear that from James, you know what we think immediately?

[\[00:24:04\]](#transcript-00-24-04-302) individually in my closet by myself.

[\[00:24:07\]](#transcript-00-24-07-303) This is he is actually writing to the church saying, If the church, if you're lacking these things, you need to come together and ask of God so that you can receive these things.

[\[00:24:17\]](#transcript-00-24-17-304) We individualize everything.

[\[00:24:19\]](#transcript-00-24-19-305) And yet, when James is writing, he's like, I'm writing to the 12 churches that are all scattered abroad all over the place.

[\[00:24:25\]](#transcript-00-24-25-306) And this is what's happening to you.

[\[00:24:27\]](#transcript-00-24-27-307) And yet, what do we do?

[\[00:24:29\]](#transcript-00-24-29-308) We individualize it.

[\[00:24:32\]](#transcript-00-24-32-309) If you're new to Theocast, we have a free e-book available for you called Faith versus Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest.

[\[00:24:39\]](#transcript-00-24-39-310) And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a reformed confessional perspective.

[\[00:24:50\]](#transcript-00-24-50-311) You can get your free copy at theocast.org/slash primer.

[\[00:24:57\]](#transcript-00-24-57-312) I mean, if you need more scriptural warrant for this kind of church-shaped life that we're contending for, John's already brought up the book of James, but there are ample other things.

[\[00:25:08\]](#transcript-00-25-08-313) The whole second half of the letter of the Ephesians, we've brought that up.

[\[00:25:11\]](#transcript-00-25-11-314) Very clear.

[\[00:25:12\]](#transcript-00-25-12-315) I would argue the entire letter of 1 Corinthians is about this.

[\[00:25:16\]](#transcript-00-25-16-316) And there are very pointed sections that make this just crystal clear.

[\[00:25:21\]](#transcript-00-25-21-317) You have sections of the book of Hebrews.

[\[00:25:23\]](#transcript-00-25-23-318) You know, not only did you mention Hebrews 10, I mean, Hebrews 10, right there, after he's talked about the sufficiency of the Lord Jesus Christ, he then talks about how we together, draw near to God with full assurance

[\[00:25:36\]](#transcript-00-25-36-319) of faith, holding fast to our confession together.

[\[00:25:38\]](#transcript-00-25-38-320) That's what we do.

[\[00:25:40\]](#transcript-00-25-40-321) And then you have the chapter 13 about how it's good for us to submit to our leaders.

[\[00:25:44\]](#transcript-00-25-44-322) There's the pastoral epistles are written, two congregations through a pastor.

[\[00:25:50\]](#transcript-00-25-50-323) And so, like, clearly, there's a need for this kind of churchly life and the need for elders and shepherds and teachers and all those things.

[\[00:25:58\]](#transcript-00-25-58-324) We could go on and on and on.

[\[00:26:00\]](#transcript-00-26-00-325) The Christian life is inherently corporate.

[\[00:26:02\]](#transcript-00-26-02-326) It's inherently church-shaped.

[\[00:26:03\]](#transcript-00-26-03-327) I want to circle back briefly to what I was arguing for toward the beginning of today's episode: that the church exists primarily for the forgiveness of sins and the fellowship of the saints.

[\[00:26:14\]](#transcript-00-26-14-328) And that's what we need and why we need it.

[\[00:26:16\]](#transcript-00-26-16-329) I want to read a quote from Jay Gresham Machin really quickly.

[\[00:26:19\]](#transcript-00-26-19-330) And this is from his famous book called Christianity and Liberalism.

[\[00:26:22\]](#transcript-00-26-22-331) And just a little bit of a teaser: in the coming weeks, I assume Jon and I are going to try to do an episode on confessional theology, maybe multiple.

[\[00:26:30\]](#transcript-00-26-30-332) I think that one thing about Machin's book is that it's almost always read purely through the lens of conservative versus liberal, kind of evangelical versus liberal dichotomy.

[\[00:26:42\]](#transcript-00-26-42-333) Whereas I think if we read Machin understanding him to be a confessional Protestant, not a pietistic Protestant, it's really revelatory.

[\[00:26:50\]](#transcript-00-26-50-334) But anyway, here we go.

[\[00:26:52\]](#transcript-00-26-52-335) Machin says this about the church and about how what we need is a place for us to go because we're weary pilgrims.

[\[00:27:02\]](#transcript-00-27-02-336) There must be somewhere groups of redeemed men and women who can gather together humbly in the name of Christ to give thanks to Him for His unspeakable gift and to worship the Father through Him.

[\[00:27:13\]](#transcript-00-27-13-337) Such groups alone can satisfy the needs of the soul.

[\[00:27:18\]](#transcript-00-27-18-338) At the present time, there is one longing of the human heart which is often forgotten.

[\[00:27:22\]](#transcript-00-27-22-339) It is the deep, pathetic longing of the Christian for fellowship with his brethren.

[\[00:27:27\]](#transcript-00-27-27-340) I'm just like, homie, you're reading my mail.

[\[00:27:29\]](#transcript-00-27-29-341) I mean, this man lived a hundred years ago.

[\[00:27:32\]](#transcript-00-27-32-342) I mean, born well over, I mean, well over a century older than me.

[\[00:27:35\]](#transcript-00-27-35-343) But it's just, it's like this man understood, not well over, about a century older than me.

[\[00:27:41\]](#transcript-00-27-41-344) He understood why we need the church.

[\[00:27:45\]](#transcript-00-27-45-345) I need the church because it's the one place where the forgiveness of sins in Christ is offered.

[\[00:27:51\]](#transcript-00-27-51-346) It's the one place where redeemed people, on account of Christ, gather in his name to worship the Father.

[\[00:27:57\]](#transcript-00-27-57-347) And it's the one place where we can go to fellowship with these other redeemed people.

[\[00:28:03\]](#transcript-00-28-03-348) And how desperately we need this.

[\[00:28:05\]](#transcript-00-28-05-349) That's right.

[\[00:28:05\]](#transcript-00-28-05-350) Again, why do I need the church?

[\[00:28:07\]](#transcript-00-28-07-351) My question is: how do I live without her?

[\[00:28:09\]](#transcript-00-28-09-352) Well, yeah, and so many arguments from Paul where the giftedness of the church, God has gifted the church with various myths, and this is why it's so valuable that the church identifies these gifts.

[\[00:28:23\]](#transcript-00-28-23-353) Now, I'm not talking about spiritual gifts tests.

[\[00:28:25\]](#transcript-00-28-25-354) That's what I mean is men and men of God who can accurately teach and shepherd through means of teaching.

[\[00:28:34\]](#transcript-00-28-34-355) I honestly think that we also need to defy strong women who are strong in the faith and that can love.

[\[00:28:41\]](#transcript-00-28-41-356) I mean, Paul literally says that they need to love and care and administrate this wisdom to other women in the church.

[\[00:28:47\]](#transcript-00-28-47-357) So the church is all about strength.

[\[00:28:50\]](#transcript-00-28-50-358) It's, I mean, literally, Romans 15: those of you who are strong have an obligation to deal with the failings of the weak.

[\[00:28:56\]](#transcript-00-28-56-359) There's this idea of that people come in weak with the faith, and the church is there to build you up in your faith.

[\[00:29:02\]](#transcript-00-29-02-360) Now, this is what we're told, Justin.

[\[00:29:04\]](#transcript-00-29-04-361) Go home and here's your reading plan.

[\[00:29:05\]](#transcript-00-29-05-362) And the church says, No, come on in and let us take the power of the spirit and transform you.

[\[00:29:11\]](#transcript-00-29-11-363) Can I say this?

[\[00:29:12\]](#transcript-00-29-12-364) I think people, I don't know that people, even John, would say something as good as the church exists to build me up in my faith.

[\[00:29:20\]](#transcript-00-29-20-365) I think people would say, no, the church exists so that I can be better, so that I can be a better Christian, so that I can be a better citizen, so that I can be a better father, a

[\[00:29:28\]](#transcript-00-29-28-366) better husband, a better mother, a better wife, whatever.

[\[00:29:31\]](#transcript-00-29-31-367) Like, that's why I go to church to get better.

[\[00:29:35\]](#transcript-00-29-35-368) And it's like, well, I would say, I'll go ahead and say that, yeah, you might come to church to get better in some sense, but what you ultimately are getting better in is learning through life and trial and

[\[00:29:48\]](#transcript-00-29-48-369) suffering and pain and every other thing, like under the word of Christ and under the sacraments, you are learning to trust Jesus through all of that.

[\[00:29:57\]](#transcript-00-29-57-370) If that's what you mean by better, then okay, right?

[\[00:30:00\]](#transcript-00-30-00-371) But if sanctification is the process of a greater and greater awareness of trust, and dependence on Christ.

[\[00:30:06\]](#transcript-00-30-06-372) In spite of circumstance, right?

[\[00:30:08\]](#transcript-00-30-08-373) I mean, that's the whole steadfastness piece, right?

[\[00:30:11\]](#transcript-00-30-11-374) I mean, even of James 1.

[\[00:30:12\]](#transcript-00-30-12-375) I mean, I know you're preaching it right now, but good gracious, like God produces steadfastness through pain, right?

[\[00:30:18\]](#transcript-00-30-18-376) So I think, let me just say this, Jon.

[\[00:30:21\]](#transcript-00-30-21-377) I want to introduce this paradigm.

[\[00:30:23\]](#transcript-00-30-23-378) It's not accidental, right, that we use the language of pilgrims for theocast.

[\[00:30:30\]](#transcript-00-30-30-379) encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

[\[00:30:34\]](#transcript-00-30-34-380) That language of pilgrim is not unique to us, certainly.

[\[00:30:37\]](#transcript-00-30-37-381) The reformed have been using it for hundreds of years.

[\[00:30:40\]](#transcript-00-30-40-382) I mean, I'm even thinking about, I mean, obviously there's pilgrim's' progress, but then I'm even thinking about Michael Horton's systematic theology.

[\[00:30:47\]](#transcript-00-30-47-383) I mean, he's got pilgrims all over that thing because why is that?

[\[00:30:51\]](#transcript-00-30-51-384) Well, confessional Protestants, Reformed Protestants understand that the metaphor of a pilgrim, a sojourner, an exile, is the right one to use.

[\[00:31:03\]](#transcript-00-31-03-385) Not only is it a biblical image, but it communicates that we're going to be weary, that we're going to struggle, and that we have not yet reached our homeland.

[\[00:31:13\]](#transcript-00-31-13-386) Like we are in the midst of, there's an already, but not yet.

[\[00:31:16\]](#transcript-00-31-16-387) We've been promised a land, we've been promised a home, we've been promised that we're going to have immediate fellowship with God forever, but that is not yet our experience.

[\[00:31:24\]](#transcript-00-31-24-388) We've been promised that we're going to be delivered from sin, you know, completely, like where we won't even have a sinful flesh anymore, but that's not true yet.

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-389) And so we're pilgrims right now.

[\[00:31:34\]](#transcript-00-31-34-390) The problem, I think, in so many streams of the church is that we're not thought of as pilgrims, weary pilgrims in need of rest, in need of forgiveness, in need of reminders of righteousness that Christ has accomplished, in

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-391) need of fellowship.

[\[00:31:49\]](#transcript-00-31-49-392) But instead, we are supposed to be, you know, activists or warriors or conquerors or whatever it is where we're just so spiritually strong that we just go out and slay everything.

[\[00:32:01\]](#transcript-00-32-01-393) And it's like, well, okay, I understand that Jesus by his spirit has conquered the devil and is building his church.

[\[00:32:08\]](#transcript-00-32-08-394) Amen.

[\[00:32:09\]](#transcript-00-32-09-395) And I mean, we're able, you know, in the power of God to do all kinds of things, but we did not ought not get that twisted.

[\[00:32:16\]](#transcript-00-32-16-396) We are still weak and we are still feeble and frail and need these reminders weekly in the corporate assembly, and we need the fellowship of our brethren, of our sisters, because doing this alone is an impossibility.

[\[00:32:31\]](#transcript-00-32-31-397) And yeah, anyway.

[\[00:32:32\]](#transcript-00-32-32-398) Well, here's the thing: we as Reformed believe and can argue from scripture that sanctification is a monergistic, mono, meaning one, is a monergistic Ergo meaning to work.

[\[00:32:45\]](#transcript-00-32-45-399) Yeah, one work.

[\[00:32:45\]](#transcript-00-32-45-400) That's right.

[\[00:32:46\]](#transcript-00-32-46-401) Yeah, one word.

[\[00:32:46\]](#transcript-00-32-46-402) Synergistic meaning two working together.

[\[00:32:49\]](#transcript-00-32-49-403) So we do not believe that we work alongside God to sanctify ourselves.

[\[00:32:53\]](#transcript-00-32-53-404) We do believe that we work out our sanctification, meaning that as God works in us to do his good pleasure.

[\[00:32:59\]](#transcript-00-32-59-405) Oh, doesn't it sound like Philippians 2?

[\[00:33:01\]](#transcript-00-33-01-406) But this goes back to Galatians 3.

[\[00:33:03\]](#transcript-00-33-03-407) Sounds like Philippians 3.

[\[00:33:05\]](#transcript-00-33-05-408) I strive to take hold of the resurrection so that, you know, because Christ has taken hold of me.

[\[00:33:09\]](#transcript-00-33-09-409) That's right.

[\[00:33:10\]](#transcript-00-33-10-410) He says, Who bewitched you?

[\[00:33:11\]](#transcript-00-33-11-411) Have you begun by the Spirit?

[\[00:33:12\]](#transcript-00-33-12-412) Are you now being perfected by the flesh?

[\[00:33:15\]](#transcript-00-33-15-413) No.

[\[00:33:15\]](#transcript-00-33-15-414) So God says that it's by his spirit that he transforms you, but how do you keep your faith in the right place?

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-415) I mean, this even goes back to Galatians, James 1, where he says, If you lack wisdom, he goes, ask, and it will be given to you generously to all without reproach.

[\[00:33:33\]](#transcript-00-33-33-416) And the point of it is that, by the way, wisdom there, he doesn't mean intellectual knowledge.

[\[00:33:39\]](#transcript-00-33-39-417) He literally means, if you go, I think he's talking about the fruits of the spirit.

[\[00:33:42\]](#transcript-00-33-42-418) Go read chapter 3, verses 13 and following.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-419) It's about gentleness and meekness and patience.

[\[00:33:47\]](#transcript-00-33-47-420) The point of it is, is that all of this comes to us by means of the Spirit, and the Spirit has a mechanism that He uses.

[\[00:33:55\]](#transcript-00-33-55-421) Let me read you this quote by, I mean, anytime you rig Calvin, it's almost like a mic drop, right?

[\[00:33:59\]](#transcript-00-33-59-422) Not that he's perfect, but he helps us.

[\[00:34:02\]](#transcript-00-34-02-423) It says this: this is from his institutes.

[\[00:34:04\]](#transcript-00-34-04-424) But as our faith is slight and feeble, unless it is propped up on all sides and sustained by every means, it trembles, wavers, totters, and last gives way.

[\[00:34:14\]](#transcript-00-34-14-425) How here our merciful Lord, according to his infinite kindness, so tempers himself to our capacity that, since we are creatures who always creep on the ground, cleave to the flesh, and do not think about or even conceive of

[\[00:34:29\]](#transcript-00-34-29-426) anything spiritual, he condescends to lead us to himself even by these earthly elements, and so before us in the flesh a mirror of spiritual blessings.

[\[00:34:40\]](#transcript-00-34-40-427) He's talking about the ordinary means of grace here.

[\[00:34:42\]](#transcript-00-34-42-428) Can I, while you're doing this, I'm just going to go ahead.

[\[00:34:44\]](#transcript-00-34-44-429) This is from Calvin's liturgy for the Lord's Supper in the church in Geneva.

[\[00:34:48\]](#transcript-00-34-48-430) This is just a brief excerpt.

[\[00:34:50\]](#transcript-00-34-50-431) Quote: Let us understand, therefore, that this sacrament is a medicine for poor, spiritually sick people.

[\[00:34:57\]](#transcript-00-34-57-432) And since we see only bread and wine, yet we do not doubt that He accomplishes spiritually in our souls all that He demonstrates to us outwardly through these visible signs, namely, that He is the heavenly bread that feeds

[\[00:35:10\]](#transcript-00-35-10-433) and nourishes us for eternal life.

[\[00:35:13\]](#transcript-00-35-13-434) Another quote from Calvin on the Lord's Supper, again, ordinary means of grace: quote, to demand perfection in order to receive the table betrays appalling ignorance, not to say stupidity, for it would make it useless and superfluous.

[\[00:35:27\]](#transcript-00-35-27-435) It was not instituted for the perfect, but for the weak and feeble, so as to awaken, prompt, rouse, and exercise whatever their faith and love might lack.

[\[00:35:38\]](#transcript-00-35-38-436) It's like people have understood this before.

[\[00:35:41\]](#transcript-00-35-41-437) I mean, Jon and I are not the first Christians to say this stuff, that actually corporate worship is for the weak and it's for those who are weary and needy and know themselves to be, who show up needy,

[\[00:35:54\]](#transcript-00-35-54-438) but who show up expectant that God is going to meet us in our need and that Christ will minister to us.

[\[00:36:01\]](#transcript-00-36-01-439) This is why we, we, I, I know we both, Jon, agree about this, and I know we make a big deal out of this at CBC.

[\[00:36:07\]](#transcript-00-36-07-440) Corporate worship is not a human activity, it's not about entertainment, it's not about motivation, it is not something that we offer God that He needs.

[\[00:36:16\]](#transcript-00-36-16-441) Nope, it has everything to do with us casting ourselves upon God in Christ completely.

[\[00:36:23\]](#transcript-00-36-23-442) We come in need to receive from the Lord what only He can do and give to us.

[\[00:36:29\]](#transcript-00-36-29-443) And so that is a better, like historical, reformed, biblical perspective on corporate worship and why the church exists and why we so desperately need the church.

[\[00:36:41\]](#transcript-00-36-41-444) Because it's the only here that we can receive these things and where we can fellowship with each other and have that unity and camaraderie in the Lord Jesus Christ to keep putting one foot in front of the other

[\[00:36:52\]](#transcript-00-36-52-445) in this pilgrimage that we're on.

[\[00:36:55\]](#transcript-00-36-55-446) So, Justin, to add to that, I believe Believe

[\[00:37:00\]](#transcript-00-37-00-447) with full conviction in Ephesians 4 that Paul makes the promise that the Spirit will come and do something that is supernatural, that cannot be reproduced by humans anywhere else.

[\[00:37:13\]](#transcript-00-37-13-448) That he says when the church gathers together around the gospel and is administrating the grace of God appropriately, that the Spirit comes and he unifies them and he builds them up.

[\[00:37:25\]](#transcript-00-37-25-449) He strengthens them.

[\[00:37:26\]](#transcript-00-37-26-450) It's the promise of the Spirit because literally in verse 11, it says the Spirit comes and does these things.

[\[00:37:32\]](#transcript-00-37-32-451) So nowhere else in Scripture does it say the Spirit will come and do this for you

[\[00:37:37\]](#transcript-00-37-37-452) outside of these means.

[\[00:37:40\]](#transcript-00-37-40-453) You were talking about how there are many people who feel tossed about, like theologically confused, they feel dry and distant, and they've not been in a good church.

[\[00:37:50\]](#transcript-00-37-50-454) Well, two times, Hebrews 13:9 says, Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace.

[\[00:38:02\]](#transcript-00-38-02-455) And then later in Ephesians, go back to it, verse 4, verse 4, verse 14.

[\[00:38:06\]](#transcript-00-38-06-456) He says, This: so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes, meaning that you can be.

[\[00:38:16\]](#transcript-00-38-16-457) He says, no longer, meaning that you were.

[\[00:38:19\]](#transcript-00-38-19-458) There are so many people who are, they believe the craziest doctrines.

[\[00:38:23\]](#transcript-00-38-23-459) They've been tossed about by all kinds of human cunningness.

[\[00:38:26\]](#transcript-00-38-26-460) You know, people get really upset and angry at the different movements that are out there.

[\[00:38:31\]](#transcript-00-38-31-461) I'm thinking about the Pentecostal movement, you know, where there's this, all these healings, these false healings that happen, and they get so angry at them.

[\[00:38:37\]](#transcript-00-38-37-462) And I say, listen, a lot of those are our brothers and sisters in Christ who have been tossed about.

[\[00:38:42\]](#transcript-00-38-42-463) And you need to be patient with them as God has been patient with us.

[\[00:38:46\]](#transcript-00-38-46-464) And what they need is this: verse 15: rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head into Christ.

[\[00:38:54\]](#transcript-00-38-54-465) His response, Justin, to not being tested or not being tossed about by craftiness and deceitful schemes is for the church to be administrating the grace of God through love.

[\[00:39:06\]](#transcript-00-39-06-466) I mean, this is going back to Hebrews when he says, For your heart will be strengthened by grace, but it's not grace in yourself, it's grace being administrated to you outside of yourself, so this is why we are

[\[00:39:20\]](#transcript-00-39-20-467) saying the ordinary means of grace, right?

[\[00:39:22\]](#transcript-00-39-22-468) The public preaching and teaching of God's word, the gathered church around fellowship.

[\[00:39:26\]](#transcript-00-39-26-469) This is what he just argued in Ephesians 4, the administration of the sacraments, word and prayer.

[\[00:39:31\]](#transcript-00-39-31-470) I'm sorry, the table and baptism.

[\[00:39:34\]](#transcript-00-39-34-471) That's how God protects his congregations and builds them up.

[\[00:39:40\]](#transcript-00-39-40-472) Right.

[\[00:39:40\]](#transcript-00-39-40-473) Well, I mean, in terms of the sacraments and union with Christ, I mean, read 1 Corinthians 10.

[\[00:39:45\]](#transcript-00-39-45-474) Look at Romans 6.

[\[00:39:46\]](#transcript-00-39-46-475) I mean, amongst other places, Colossians 2 and the things that those things signify.

[\[00:39:50\]](#transcript-00-39-50-476) And then, I mean, in terms of the preaching of the word, there are a number of places: Romans 10, 2 Timothy 4, I mean, all of these things where God promises to use his word uniquely and especially the

[\[00:40:00\]](#transcript-00-40-00-477) word of Christ to build up and sustain his church.

[\[00:40:03\]](#transcript-00-40-03-478) Ephesians 4, like you said, I mean, the result of the way that you combat being blown around by doctrine and by deceitful schemes and everything else, strange doctrine, is for the body to function as it should, which includes

[\[00:40:14\]](#transcript-00-40-14-479) its pastors and teachers, and then for it to work every member of the body doing its part, building itself up in love unto maturity in Christ Jesus.

[\[00:40:22\]](#transcript-00-40-22-480) I mean, that's it.

[\[00:40:23\]](#transcript-00-40-23-481) And that is like the church is God's plan.

[\[00:40:25\]](#transcript-00-40-25-482) I think sometimes people hear us talk about our need of the church, and it's almost like we're slapping the Holy Spirit in the face or something, as though He's not enough.

[\[00:40:32\]](#transcript-00-40-32-483) It's like, no, we're not, because the same Holy Spirit who inspired the scriptures is the one who tells us we need the church and is the one who tells us that he works and ministers particularly in and through

[\[00:40:41\]](#transcript-00-40-41-484) the church.

[\[00:40:42\]](#transcript-00-40-42-485) And so we are just in lockstep with the Holy Spirit when we talk about a church-shaped life in the way that we've been describing it.

[\[00:40:52\]](#transcript-00-40-52-486) And yeah, I am

[\[00:40:56\]](#transcript-00-40-56-487) so burdened for like my own people at Covenant Baptist Church.

[\[00:41:01\]](#transcript-00-41-01-488) I am very burdened for the listeners of Theocast and for professing Christians in America to have this understanding of

[\[00:41:11\]](#transcript-00-41-11-489) church and like this understanding of the corporate gathering and this understanding of the fellowship of the saints, and to see that these things are not a burden, they're not a to-do list, they're not something I need to accomplish,

[\[00:41:24\]](#transcript-00-41-24-490) but these are literally a lifeline from the Lord in terms of how He plans to sustain and keep us as sojourners and exiles in this life and to bring us ultimately to the celestial city where we'll be with

[\[00:41:38\]](#transcript-00-41-38-491) Him forever.

[\[00:41:40\]](#transcript-00-41-40-492) And I want my perspective.

[\[00:41:42\]](#transcript-00-41-42-493) I pray that the Lord would give me and you and others grace that we might continue to grow in our understanding of these things because it makes the church and the Christian life, it makes it really sweet.

[\[00:41:54\]](#transcript-00-41-54-494) And it also makes it something that you're just you cling to and you love, you know, and it's like, man, I need this and I need these people.

[\[00:42:02\]](#transcript-00-42-02-495) And I'm so excited and eager to go to corporate worship today, because I know what we're going to do.

[\[00:42:08\]](#transcript-00-42-08-496) I know that this isn't about entertainment.

[\[00:42:09\]](#transcript-00-42-09-497) It's not about motivation.

[\[00:42:11\]](#transcript-00-42-11-498) It's not even about like moral transformation.

[\[00:42:13\]](#transcript-00-42-13-499) This is about the forgiveness of sins because of Christ.

[\[00:42:17\]](#transcript-00-42-17-500) And this is about righteousness being given to a wretch like me because of Christ.

[\[00:42:21\]](#transcript-00-42-21-501) And we together are going to celebrate that today.

[\[00:42:24\]](#transcript-00-42-24-502) Amen.

[\[00:42:25\]](#transcript-00-42-25-503) Yeah.

[\[00:42:25\]](#transcript-00-42-25-504) Man, it's good.

[\[00:42:26\]](#transcript-00-42-26-505) Well, the church.

[\[00:42:27\]](#transcript-00-42-27-506) The church can actually accomplish something, Justin, if the church does what it's called to do.

[\[00:42:31\]](#transcript-00-42-31-507) If the church is distracted by all kinds of missions that are out there.

[\[00:42:35\]](#transcript-00-42-35-508) But when a church is called to do what it's supposed to do, it can change someone's entire world and the experience they have in a world where they go from despair.

[\[00:42:45\]](#transcript-00-42-45-509) They go to no dignity, no hope, no future.

[\[00:42:50\]](#transcript-00-42-50-510) And they're trying everything.

[\[00:42:52\]](#transcript-00-42-52-511) They're trying sex, relationships, money, fame.

[\[00:42:54\]](#transcript-00-42-54-512) They've tried everything to find significance.

[\[00:42:56\]](#transcript-00-42-56-513) And they walk into a church and they get attached to a body full of life, full of grace, who is focused on what matters.

[\[00:43:03\]](#transcript-00-43-03-514) And they go from a perspective that is completely them trying to figure out how to appease whatever it is that they're trying to appease, that can rest in Christ.

[\[00:43:14\]](#transcript-00-43-14-515) Now there's so much energy that's being generated that they're trying to figure out how do we get more people into this place where they are feasting every single week on the grace of God and the glory of Christ.

[\[00:43:26\]](#transcript-00-43-26-516) And the mission of the church becomes: let's gather and let's care for each other while we await our final resurrection.

[\[00:43:34\]](#transcript-00-43-34-517) We are not trying to live a resurrected life now.

[\[00:43:36\]](#transcript-00-43-36-518) No, we live in the already not yet.

[\[00:43:38\]](#transcript-00-43-38-519) Well, and when it comes to, I'll save this for future episodes, and but when it comes to like the transformation of the society in which we live, that has never been the mission of the church.

[\[00:43:48\]](#transcript-00-43-48-520) No, like God has never commissioned the church to do that.

[\[00:43:51\]](#transcript-00-43-51-521) I will say, kind of piggybacking on what you just said, that when the church functions as it should, and we actually keep an appropriate distinction between the things that are inherently supernatural and religious, and things that actually aren't,

[\[00:44:04\]](#transcript-00-44-04-522) right?

[\[00:44:05\]](#transcript-00-44-05-523) If we kind of distinguish appropriately between the redemptive kingdom and the common kingdom, like we've talked about in recent weeks, then what that does is we actually find real hope, real rest, real peace in the church.

[\[00:44:17\]](#transcript-00-44-17-524) And then we can live life as citizens pursuing justice for our neighbor and seeking to do good to our neighbor in a way that actually will end up being good for society.

[\[00:44:27\]](#transcript-00-44-27-525) That's right.

[\[00:44:27\]](#transcript-00-44-27-526) Though the mission of the church is not to change society, right?

[\[00:44:31\]](#transcript-00-44-31-527) Like, it anyway, I don't need to keep going there.

[\[00:44:35\]](#transcript-00-44-35-528) The most helpful thing you can do for a thief is to give him reasons not to steal anymore, sure in Christ.

[\[00:44:42\]](#transcript-00-44-42-529) Anyway, the church exists for peace and rest.

[\[00:44:45\]](#transcript-00-44-45-530) The church exists for forgiveness and fellowship.

[\[00:44:48\]](#transcript-00-44-48-531) And ultimately, life is found in the church in a way that it is not found anywhere else because Christ is in the church.

[\[00:44:56\]](#transcript-00-44-56-532) And yeah, we'll leave it there.

[\[00:44:57\]](#transcript-00-44-57-533) So, one, yeah.

[\[00:44:58\]](#transcript-00-44-58-534) So, one of the things that Justin and I are very, as you can see, passionate about is the local assembly and doing the right, doing church the way it was intended to be scripturally, where we gather to receive

[\[00:45:12\]](#transcript-00-45-12-535) of Christ, to build one another up, to evangelize, not only to give each other the gospel, to give their community, this is the gospel.

[\[00:45:20\]](#transcript-00-45-20-536) We're going to talk about this in Semper Reformanda about how our podcast, which is always designed for the edification of the body of Christ, hopefully you'll hear this and you go and encourage your church.

[\[00:45:31\]](#transcript-00-45-31-537) But if you're in an area that doesn't have a good church or you want to be a part of this, how do we help more churches get started?

[\[00:45:37\]](#transcript-00-45-37-538) How do we help more churches find this true rest in Christ?

[\[00:45:40\]](#transcript-00-45-40-539) We're going to continue this conversation over in another podcast that we record every week called Semper Reformanda.

[\[00:45:46\]](#transcript-00-45-46-540) For those of you that don't know Latin, it means always reforming.

[\[00:45:49\]](#transcript-00-45-49-541) And this is what we're hoping for: that we continue to help people find rest in Christ.

[\[00:45:54\]](#transcript-00-45-54-542) We continue this reformation forward, and you can learn more about this podcast.

[\[00:45:59\]](#transcript-00-45-59-543) And this podcast is designed for those who have partnered with us in our ministry.

[\[00:46:04\]](#transcript-00-46-04-544) And there is an app where this conversation happens throughout the week on the app, different conversations, different questions that go in there, and we are working to continue to build our local and online groups as well.

[\[00:46:15\]](#transcript-00-46-15-545) You can go to Theocast.org to learn more about that.

[\[00:46:17\]](#transcript-00-46-17-546) Justin, I'll see you here in Semper Reformanda.

[\[00:46:19\]](#transcript-00-46-19-547) And for those of you listening, we'll see you next week.

---

### A Guide to Deconstruction

*Published: November 3, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/a-guide-to-deconstruction*
*Tags: Covenant Theology*

There seem to be a number of people "deconstructing" these days--and by that we mean deconstructing the Christian faith and leaving it. At Theocast, we are not unfamiliar with deconstruction. We do some deconstructing of unhelpful theology in an effort to pull people toward the sufficiency of Christ for sinners. On this episode, Jon and Justin make observations about the "Christianity" people are leaving, as well as offer thoughts on how to do deconstructing well.

Semper Reformanda: The guys continue the conversation on deconstructing by speaking more to those in a confessional environment about the dangers of always having to be against something. Ultimately, we need to remember that the goal of everything we do is for the saints to rest in Jesus Christ.

Resources:  
[Episode on struggling with the church](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/struggling-with-the-church/)  
[Episode on leaving pietism](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/leavingpietism/)  
[Episode on assurance](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/assurance-podcast/)

https://youtu.be/X4YDBt88I2Y

---

### More Than Forgiven

*Published: October 27, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/more-than-forgiven*
*Tags: Covenant Theology*

In our third of three episodes on the implications of covenant theology, Jon and Justin discuss the significance of the covenant of works as it relates to the work of Christ. When we begin to see the relationship between the covenant of works and the work of Christ in our place, it becomes clear how are more than just forgiven through our union with Jesus by faith. We are declared righteous. We have peace with God now and forever. It really is finished. All really is well.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about the fallout produced by a denial of the covenant of works. The guys discuss final/future justification as a part of that and then conclude with some thoughts on the sufficiency of Christ to save sinners.  
  
Resources:  
[Our series on covenant theology](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCfzmujnlHo&t=3s)  
[Our episode on Final Justification by Mark Jones](https://youtu.be/mE%5FWbhH3UKw)  
Jon's covenant theology series:  
[Part One](https://subspla.sh/bt7ycdh)[ Part Two](https://subspla.sh/zp5t3sr)  
  
https://youtu.be/ruPNfMxZaSc

---

### The Bible Is Not an Instruction Manual

*Published: October 20, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-bible-is-not-an-instruction-manual*
*Tags: Covenant Theology*

In our second of two episodes on the implications of covenant theology, Jon and Justin consider the purpose and point of the whole Bible. It's not an instruction manual. It's not a step-by-step guide to godliness. It's not a medicine cabinet to cure everything that ails us. Rather, the Bible is about redemption. It's about Jesus. The guys unpack the implications of that and consider how to go to the Bible, how to use it, and how to understand it.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about the relationship between covenant theology and redemptive-historical theology (hint: they're the same). After that, we take a deeper dive into covenant theology. In particular, we discuss the tri-covenantal framework of redemption, works, and grace.

Resources:  
FREE Ebook: [Rest: A Consideration of Faith vs Faithfulness](/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook)  
[Our series on covenant theology ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCfzmujnlHo&t=15s)[Sacred Bond: Covenant Theology Explored Second Edition ](https://amzn.to/2Xtn95H)["The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, & His Kingdom" by Samuel Renihan](https://amzn.to/3pkRJdk)

https://youtu.be/ZriZKvraykQ

---

### Un-Perplexing the Old Testament

*Published: October 13, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/un-perplexing-the-old-testament*
*Tags: Covenant Theology, Old Testament*

For many people, when they go to Old Testament, they leave confused. The Old Testament seems to be a disjointed collection of stories and full of different kinds of literature that don't seem to hang together. When seen through the lens of covenant theology, the Old Testament, is a cohesive presentation of God and his plan to save sinners through his promised Christ. Who is this God? What is he like? Can he be trusted? How will he save us? Jon and Justin discuss these questions and more in today's episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin consider how important types and shadows are in the Old Testament--and how an over-emphasis of a literal interpretation of the Old Testament is unhelpful.

Resources:  
[Our series on covenant theology](https://youtu.be/iCfzmujnlHo)

https://youtu.be/AwajhpDAT6c

---

### The Problem: An Anemic Gospel

*Published: October 6, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-problem-an-anemic-gospel*
*Tags: Gospel, Pietism*

People make various diagnoses of what ails the church today. To some, it's a loss of a commitment to moral and social values. To others, it's a general lack of acceptance. To others, it's that we don't preach obedience and holiness enough. If we were to fix these things, would it cure what ails us? Jon and Justin consider these questions and suggest that the issue in so much of the church today is that we're preaching an anemic gospel.

https://youtu.be/l1SL4devb5E

---

### The Bible Is Not a Billy Club

*Published: September 29, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-bible-is-not-a-billy-club*
*Tags: Bible Reading, Covenant Theology*

Many people, if they were honest, would admit to being confused by the Bible--but not only confused, discouraged. It shouldn't be this way. The Bible is the testimony about Jesus Christ, who came to save sinners like us. In it, we should see our only true and lasting hope. How should we approach the Bible in order to better understand it in light of Christ? What are things we need to know so that the Bible becomes a balm for our souls, rather than a billy club?

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about the priesthood of the believer and how it has been misunderstood and misapplied. We also consider how we got to this place in the evangelical church where hope in Christ is often not what we are given from the pages of Scripture.

Resources:  
FREE Ebook wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/primer  
[Redemptive Historical Bible Reading Plan](https://storage.snappages.site/3JNNCC/assets/files/Redemptive-Historical-Bible-Reading-Plan-53.pdf)

Books:  
["Sacred Bond"](https://amzn.to/2XSWMGe)  
["The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant & His Kingdom"](https://amzn.to/39SMBUF)  
[Our Covenant Theology teaching series](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCfzmujnlHo&t=1s&ab%5Fchannel=THEOCAST)

https://youtu.be/l34HKiLzYpE

---

### The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill

*Published: September 22, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill*
*Tags: Mark Driscoll, Rise and Fall of Mars Hill*

Many people are listening to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. Many people have been impacted by Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church--in positive and negative ways. It seemed appropriate to us to have a conversation about the podcast. Our aim is not to cast shade on Mark Driscoll or Mars Hill, but rather, to consider things that we all can learn. We bring on our newest regular contributor, Patrick Crandall, for this conversation.

Semper Reformanda: The guys talk about an appropriate posture regarding the failures of other Christians and Christian leaders. And then, we consider how pastors and members can work to build healthy cultures of leadership in our churches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX1r2morO-g

---

### Is My Faith Legit?

*Published: September 15, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-my-faith-legit*
*Last modified: 2026-09-14*
*Tags: Assurance, Faith Alone, Saving Faith*

Is your faith genuine? We all struggle. We all wrestle. We all doubt. That's part of what it means to be fallen, but this produces real questions: Is the message regarding faith in Christ legitimate? If so, what is saving faith? How should we define it? And what about that bit about the demons believing? Jon and Justin seek to answer these questions from the Scripture and from the confessions.

Semper Reformanda: The guys give pastoral counsel to the person who is wrestling with the legitimacy of his/her faith. (Hint: Our counsel involves the local church.) We also talk a little more about the state of the church in our day.

Resources:  
[Our episode on law/gospel Our episode on assurance](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/assurance-podcast/)

SUPPORT Theocast: [https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/ ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/)

FACEBOOK: Theocast: [https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org ](https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org)

TWITTER: Theocast: [https://twitter.com/theocast\_org ](https://twitter.com/theocast%5Forg)

INSTAGRAM: Theocast: [https://www.instagram.com/theocast\_org/ ](https://www.instagram.com/theocast%5Forg/)

https://youtu.be/ZRaheqsN60I 

## Transcript

_Edited machine transcript. May contain errors._

[\[00:00:02\]](#transcript-00-00-02-1) Hi, this is Justin.

[\[00:00:03\]](#transcript-00-00-03-2) Today on Theocast, we are talking about legitimate faith.

[\[00:00:08\]](#transcript-00-00-08-3) We know a lot of you out there struggle.

[\[00:00:10\]](#transcript-00-00-10-4) We know that because you share some of those struggles with us and you're wrestling deep down.

[\[00:00:14\]](#transcript-00-00-14-5) Like, is my faith legit?

[\[00:00:17\]](#transcript-00-00-17-6) Is my faith genuine?

[\[00:00:18\]](#transcript-00-00-18-7) We're going to have that conversation today about what authentic, about genuine, about sincere.

[\[00:00:24\]](#transcript-00-00-24-8) Pick your descriptor, that kind of faith.

[\[00:00:26\]](#transcript-00-00-26-9) What does that look like according to the scriptures and the confessions?

[\[00:00:30\]](#transcript-00-00-30-10) We hope that the conversation encourages you in Christ.

[\[00:00:33\]](#transcript-00-00-33-11) And over in Semper Reformanda, we're going to talk about our need for the church amongst a whole host of other things.

[\[00:00:38\]](#transcript-00-00-38-12) Stay tuned.

[\[00:00:39\]](#transcript-00-00-39-13) A simple and easy way for you to help support Theocast each month is by shopping at Amazon through the Amazon Smile program.

[\[00:00:46\]](#transcript-00-00-46-14) When you make a purchase through Amazon Smile, a portion of the proceeds will be donated to our ministry.

[\[00:00:51\]](#transcript-00-00-51-15) To learn how to sign up, just go to theocast.org/slash give.

[\[00:01:06\]](#transcript-00-01-06-16) Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ, conversations about the Christian life from a reformed and a pastoral perspective.

[\[00:01:17\]](#transcript-00-01-17-17) Your hosts today are Jon Moffitt, who is pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, just south of Nashville, and I'm Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

[\[00:01:30\]](#transcript-00-01-30-18) We are meeting on an unusual day of the week, John.

[\[00:01:33\]](#transcript-00-01-33-19) That's right.

[\[00:01:33\]](#transcript-00-01-33-20) It's a podcast today.

[\[00:01:34\]](#transcript-00-01-34-21) It is a Tuesday.

[\[00:01:35\]](#transcript-00-01-35-22) It's a Monday in our world.

[\[00:01:37\]](#transcript-00-01-37-23) And it's raining where I am.

[\[00:01:39\]](#transcript-00-01-39-24) A lot.

[\[00:01:40\]](#transcript-00-01-40-25) Because that's just what it does these days.

[\[00:01:43\]](#transcript-00-01-43-26) May the Lord's mercy be upon those in Louisiana who've been hit by the hurricane.

[\[00:01:47\]](#transcript-00-01-47-27) Absolutely.

[\[00:01:48\]](#transcript-00-01-48-28) And yeah, I assume that we're experiencing some after effects of that.

[\[00:01:52\]](#transcript-00-01-52-29) But anyway, man, we are doing something a little different today in terms of this intro segment, we're going to keep it brief because we do hear your feedback, dear listener.

[\[00:02:04\]](#transcript-00-02-04-30) We hear your feedback.

[\[00:02:05\]](#transcript-00-02-05-31) And so we want to get right to the conversation, but we're quickly going to just give you a little glimpse into what's going on in our lives in particular, maybe what's going on in our pulpits in our respective

[\[00:02:16\]](#transcript-00-02-16-32) churches.

[\[00:02:17\]](#transcript-00-02-17-33) That's right.

[\[00:02:18\]](#transcript-00-02-18-34) So, we thought we'd start telling you guys what we're preaching about, things that we work on all week, and we're excited for.

[\[00:02:25\]](#transcript-00-02-25-35) So I've been just finished 97 sermons in John, believe that or not.

[\[00:02:30\]](#transcript-00-02-30-36) 97 sermons.

[\[00:02:32\]](#transcript-00-02-32-37) So over three years.

[\[00:02:34\]](#transcript-00-02-34-38) And just every summer, we took a break, and I do a series on the purpose of the church.

[\[00:02:39\]](#transcript-00-02-39-39) So, last week, I did Shattered by the Church: those who have experienced

[\[00:02:45\]](#transcript-00-02-45-40) kind of the downfall of what happens in a church that's not biblical and is abuses and hurts people.

[\[00:02:52\]](#transcript-00-02-52-41) So, we talked about that last week.

[\[00:02:53\]](#transcript-00-02-53-42) And then this week we talked about scattered church warrior evangelism and how we often are very confused on what is the mission and the purpose of the church and what we do, and how we have even skewed what

[\[00:03:05\]](#transcript-00-03-05-43) evangelism is.

[\[00:03:06\]](#transcript-00-03-06-44) So, we're going to continue that into next week, and we're going to do a podcast on it soon, too.

[\[00:03:09\]](#transcript-00-03-09-45) So, stay tuned for that.

[\[00:03:10\]](#transcript-00-03-10-46) Yeah, JP, what's been in your pulpit, man?

[\[00:03:13\]](#transcript-00-03-13-47) Yeah, so I'm in an ongoing series through the book of Genesis.

[\[00:03:16\]](#transcript-00-03-16-48) I'm doing it in 22 messages.

[\[00:03:19\]](#transcript-00-03-19-49) That's what I've got it planned for.

[\[00:03:21\]](#transcript-00-03-21-50) And I am a little over halfway through that series.

[\[00:03:24\]](#transcript-00-03-24-51) The whole series has been great, just seeing Christ from Genesis and considering Genesis as a Christian.

[\[00:03:30\]](#transcript-00-03-30-52) Amen.

[\[00:03:31\]](#transcript-00-03-31-53) And it's about redemption and all that good stuff.

[\[00:03:33\]](#transcript-00-03-33-54) Last Sunday, I preached the latter portion of chapter 25 through the end of chapter 27.

[\[00:03:38\]](#transcript-00-03-38-55) So that's the whole scenario with Jacob and Rebekah and Isaac and Esau and deceit and trickery and all these kinds of things.

[\[00:03:48\]](#transcript-00-03-48-56) And we see Jacob as kind of a punk.

[\[00:03:51\]](#transcript-00-03-51-57) You know, he's this deceitful, manipulative guy, and everybody's sinful.

[\[00:03:54\]](#transcript-00-03-54-58) Like, nobody is upright, nobody wins, and yet the promises of God remain, and the purposes of God advance, and it's very clear that he uses broken vessels and

[\[00:04:08\]](#transcript-00-04-08-59) D doesn't redeem us apart from our sin, but even through our sin and wickedness, he saves us.

[\[00:04:14\]](#transcript-00-04-14-60) And just continuing to think, too, man, about how much of a treasure the Old Testament is and how it's a wonderful gift from God, right?

[\[00:04:22\]](#transcript-00-04-22-61) Like to help us as we try to struggle honestly against the flesh and live life in the church.

[\[00:04:27\]](#transcript-00-04-27-62) Like even with Jacob, here's this guy who's a liar and a cheater and a deceiver, and God so loves liars and cheaters that He took on flesh and lived and suffered and bled and died to save us.

[\[00:04:38\]](#transcript-00-04-38-63) And so I'm so glad he really

[\[00:04:41\]](#transcript-00-04-41-64) good, man.

[\[00:04:42\]](#transcript-00-04-42-65) So, yeah, continuing on in Genesis this coming Sunday.

[\[00:04:46\]](#transcript-00-04-46-66) Yeah.

[\[00:04:47\]](#transcript-00-04-47-67) Well, if you'd like to hear that, we'll put the links to either of our sermons down in the notes, the show notes, if you want to go and listen to those.

[\[00:04:54\]](#transcript-00-04-54-68) They're also available on iTunes or any of your favorite podcasts.

[\[00:04:56\]](#transcript-00-04-56-69) Our websites, whatever.

[\[00:04:58\]](#transcript-00-04-58-70) Or YouTube.

[\[00:04:59\]](#transcript-00-04-59-71) I know both of us are on YouTube.

[\[00:05:00\]](#transcript-00-05-00-72) All that good stuff.

[\[00:05:01\]](#transcript-00-05-01-73) So we just thought we'd share that with you because we're excited about what we're giving our congregation.

[\[00:05:06\]](#transcript-00-05-06-74) But today is definitely an episode that I am excited for because I know that Justin has personal experience here, not only in his own spiritual walk, but also in counseling.

[\[00:05:18\]](#transcript-00-05-18-75) And then the years that we have been doing Theocast, really, I saw a comment today on YouTube that made me think about this would be a great subject to have.

[\[00:05:28\]](#transcript-00-05-28-76) Just someone who says that almost every hour of every day they just cannot find that sense of assurance.

[\[00:05:36\]](#transcript-00-05-36-77) Like, how do I know that my faith is genuine?

[\[00:05:40\]](#transcript-00-05-40-78) I know I have faith and I know I believe in God, but how do I know that this is saving faith?

[\[00:05:46\]](#transcript-00-05-46-79) That this I've not tricked myself that, like, we're going to look at Justin, how do I know that I'm not like James, where the demons believe and tremble, but yet they're not truly believers?

[\[00:05:58\]](#transcript-00-05-58-80) Or the person that Jesus says, Depart from me, I never knew you.

[\[00:06:03\]](#transcript-00-06-03-81) So, we're going to have a conversation first of all, talking about why I think this exists in the modern world, especially with the invention of YouTube.

[\[00:06:16\]](#transcript-00-06-16-82) I think YouTube has caused a lot of problems with this concept or modern and podcasting.

[\[00:06:21\]](#transcript-00-06-21-83) It's not that there's something wrong with YouTube in general, but just how popular this teaching has become.

[\[00:06:26\]](#transcript-00-06-26-84) And then we're going to talk about it from a biblical and reformed perspective: of how one should find rest in Christ as it relates to their saving faith.

[\[00:06:35\]](#transcript-00-06-35-85) But, Justin, let's begin with kind of the problem that we're finding as the source behind those who struggle with their faith, where is this stuff coming from?

[\[00:06:46\]](#transcript-00-06-46-86) Yeah.

[\[00:06:47\]](#transcript-00-06-47-87) So we're going to do a little bit of identification and a little bit of deconstruction before we hope to pull people onto the solid rock who is Christ.

[\[00:06:56\]](#transcript-00-06-56-88) So, yeah, nothing happens in a vacuum, right, John?

[\[00:06:58\]](#transcript-00-06-58-89) I mean, that's important to say.

[\[00:07:00\]](#transcript-00-07-00-90) Whenever we're assessing the church, we have to assess the church inside the ebbs and flows and the movements of history.

[\[00:07:08\]](#transcript-00-07-08-91) And some of that in the church is obviously theological and philosophical and methodological and all those kinds of big words.

[\[00:07:16\]](#transcript-00-07-16-92) So the church in the last what, 100, 200 years in America, because that's really what we're talking about here.

[\[00:07:21\]](#transcript-00-07-21-93) We have people listening internationally, absolutely, and we praise God for that.

[\[00:07:25\]](#transcript-00-07-25-94) But we find ourselves in the situation in the context of the Western church.

[\[00:07:28\]](#transcript-00-07-28-95) And so that's what we're really talking about.

[\[00:07:31\]](#transcript-00-07-31-96) And we find ourselves particularly situated in the States and within the context of the evangelical church.

[\[00:07:37\]](#transcript-00-07-37-97) And so that church, that movement has been characterized by a number of things over the centuries, and we outline those semi-regularly.

[\[00:07:44\]](#transcript-00-07-44-98) But a couple of things that pop into my mind immediately, John, are revivalism, right?

[\[00:07:49\]](#transcript-00-07-49-99) Where we put this huge emphasis on the conversion moment.

[\[00:07:53\]](#transcript-00-07-53-100) People need to make a decision for Christ.

[\[00:07:55\]](#transcript-00-07-55-101) That's really what we're after, it's what we're trying to do and accomplish in the church: get these decisions, see people make these choices for Jesus.

[\[00:08:03\]](#transcript-00-08-03-102) And then, along with that revivalistic emphasis on conversion, there's an emphasis on the moral transformation of life as well.

[\[00:08:11\]](#transcript-00-08-11-103) And so, the American church has been characterized by this stuff for a long time.

[\[00:08:15\]](#transcript-00-08-15-104) And you dovetail that with some of the things that were preached and taught in the latter part of the 20th century.

[\[00:08:22\]](#transcript-00-08-22-105) We've talked about some of this stuff lately as we've critiqued lordship salvation.

[\[00:08:26\]](#transcript-00-08-26-106) We've mentioned Zane Hodges and some of these other people, some associated with Dallas Theological Seminary, others not, who in the 80s and 90s, are at least recognizable figures in what we might call an easy believism kind of movement,

[\[00:08:45\]](#transcript-00-08-45-107) as it's called by opponents, anyway, where the emphasis then, yeah, we need conversion, but what that looks like is praying a prayer and doing this one thing, making this one choice, this one time.

[\[00:08:59\]](#transcript-00-08-59-108) And then based upon that one act of faith, a person is right with God forever.

[\[00:09:03\]](#transcript-00-09-03-109) It's this mechanical transaction.

[\[00:09:04\]](#transcript-00-09-04-110) Once saved, always saved, and you're good.

[\[00:09:06\]](#transcript-00-09-06-111) Doesn't really matter what happens after that.

[\[00:09:08\]](#transcript-00-09-08-112) Doesn't matter even so much if you keep believing either.

[\[00:09:12\]](#transcript-00-09-12-113) That's another conversation for another time.

[\[00:09:14\]](#transcript-00-09-14-114) So, you put all this together, and there's been a lot that's happened in the American church over the last 100 years, even last 50 years, more pointedly, where the Sunday service has been aimed at the non-Christian.

[\[00:09:27\]](#transcript-00-09-27-115) That's a big deal.

[\[00:09:28\]](#transcript-00-09-28-116) The Sunday service is almost seen like a stationary Billy Graham crusade rally, where we're going to try to win the lost and see people walk the aisle and make decisions.

[\[00:09:40\]](#transcript-00-09-40-117) And if we had a lot of decisions, that was a good service today.

[\[00:09:43\]](#transcript-00-09-43-118) If we didn't have a lot of decisions, it wasn't as good.

[\[00:09:46\]](#transcript-00-09-46-119) And so you see a lot of people making decisions in these services that are aimed at that outcome.

[\[00:09:53\]](#transcript-00-09-53-120) And then a lot of times these people aren't baptized into the church, they're not discipled, they're not invested in, they're not watched over by pastors, and that's a problem.

[\[00:10:03\]](#transcript-00-10-03-121) And so, I say all that I've said up to now, as there have been many people, often of a Calvinistic ilk, who survey the church landscape and they see all of that happening and they say, Man, there's a

[\[00:10:16\]](#transcript-00-10-16-122) lot of bad stuff here.

[\[00:10:17\]](#transcript-00-10-17-123) There's so many people who have been deceived.

[\[00:10:20\]](#transcript-00-10-20-124) And they've been told that because they've asked Jesus into their heart that one time, or they walked the aisle, or they prayed the prayer, they've been told that they're good with God, but they're probably not good with God

[\[00:10:32\]](#transcript-00-10-32-125) because what's going on is illegitimate, and they're not really Christians.

[\[00:10:38\]](#transcript-00-10-38-126) That's what's perceived, right?

[\[00:10:39\]](#transcript-00-10-39-127) They're nominal.

[\[00:10:40\]](#transcript-00-10-40-128) They're Christian in name only.

[\[00:10:42\]](#transcript-00-10-42-129) They're fakers.

[\[00:10:43\]](#transcript-00-10-43-130) They're not the real thing.

[\[00:10:45\]](#transcript-00-10-45-131) And so now, in order to love those people, we need to help them understand that they're fakers and the church is full of them.

[\[00:10:50\]](#transcript-00-10-50-132) And so we're going to smoke those people out.

[\[00:10:53\]](#transcript-00-10-53-133) And yeah, you get a lot of preachers preaching that way.

[\[00:10:56\]](#transcript-00-10-56-134) And you do, to your point, YouTube and podcasts, these are not bad things, but oftentimes what happens is videos go viral and people are platformed and they're saying stuff that's provocative and shocking and edgy, and it's like, oh,

[\[00:11:11\]](#transcript-00-11-11-135) people are just attracted to that kind of spectacle, right?

[\[00:11:15\]](#transcript-00-11-15-136) But then, what that's done for so many people with a tender conscience, in particular, is you're already introspective, and now you start assessing yourself even more, and you're already questioning your legitimacy.

[\[00:11:26\]](#transcript-00-11-26-137) And then you get an internet preacher, a famous celebrity pastor or something, telling you that you're probably not legit.

[\[00:11:34\]](#transcript-00-11-34-138) And you're like, yeah, I always questioned that I was, and now I know I'm not.

[\[00:11:39\]](#transcript-00-11-39-139) Well, they see themselves as the ghostbusters of the church, but they're here to They're here to the bust the fakers.

[\[00:11:46\]](#transcript-00-11-46-140) And, you know, we want to, you know, I don't want to malign the intentions of people who preach this way.

[\[00:11:58\]](#transcript-00-11-58-141) I think their intention is to assume the motivations are good.

[\[00:12:01\]](#transcript-00-12-01-142) Yeah.

[\[00:12:02\]](#transcript-00-12-02-143) Right.

[\[00:12:02\]](#transcript-00-12-02-144) They want to repent.

[\[00:12:03\]](#transcript-00-12-03-145) But they have picked up on revivalism and I would say pietism, something that the reformers rejected.

[\[00:12:09\]](#transcript-00-12-09-146) This is from our own book, Faith versus Faithfulness.

[\[00:12:12\]](#transcript-00-12-12-147) This is Justin's section, but I think it's helpful.

[\[00:12:14\]](#transcript-00-12-14-148) I just, I think I want to read it.

[\[00:12:16\]](#transcript-00-12-16-149) It says, Pietism could be defined as hyper-piety.

[\[00:12:19\]](#transcript-00-12-19-150) Piety is good.

[\[00:12:20\]](#transcript-00-12-20-151) This is what we want to do.

[\[00:12:21\]](#transcript-00-12-21-152) But pietism, there is an overemphasis on the life of the Christian and what the Christian should be doing.

[\[00:12:27\]](#transcript-00-12-27-153) So pietism begins with the question: what must we do?

[\[00:12:31\]](#transcript-00-12-31-154) So, when you read the New Testament, which we'll get into this in a little bit, when you read the New Testament, Paul grounds the believer in the finished work of Christ.

[\[00:12:39\]](#transcript-00-12-39-155) Almost look at every single one of his epistles, the first section is always on the sufficiency and the work of Christ.

[\[00:12:46\]](#transcript-00-12-46-156) Then he talks about, in relation to that, once you are firm in your faith, he's always encouraging them in their faith, then he talks about what they should do.

[\[00:12:56\]](#transcript-00-12-56-157) And those who struggle with their faith, it's reversed.

[\[00:12:59\]](#transcript-00-12-59-158) They're always talking about what they need to do.

[\[00:13:01\]](#transcript-00-13-01-159) And it seems like there's not enough time, or there's a no emphasis on the finished work of Christ.

[\[00:13:07\]](#transcript-00-13-07-160) And so we are always pointing to the illegitimacy of your emotions, of your affections.

[\[00:13:13\]](#transcript-00-13-13-161) I mean, affections are a big thing.

[\[00:13:15\]](#transcript-00-13-15-162) I mean, I've heard people say: if you don't desire to read your Bible, you should question your salvation.

[\[00:13:20\]](#transcript-00-13-20-163) If you don't desire to pray, or if you don't hate your sin more today than you did yesterday, you should question your salvation because your faith is not genuine.

[\[00:13:31\]](#transcript-00-13-31-164) True, genuine faith produces X, Y, and Z, whatever list, whatever it is that they want to give you.

[\[00:13:37\]](#transcript-00-13-37-165) And this can be seen in almost every brand of denomination that is out there.

[\[00:13:43\]](#transcript-00-13-43-166) And it's really sad.

[\[00:13:44\]](#transcript-00-13-44-167) I am guilty of preaching this way.

[\[00:13:48\]](#transcript-00-13-48-168) When I first came out of seminary, when I was very young in ministry, I thought it was my responsibility to kind of set a fire underneath the youth of America and get them back on track of, like, hey,

[\[00:13:59\]](#transcript-00-13-59-169) listen, genuine faith means you're going to act like it.

[\[00:14:01\]](#transcript-00-14-01-170) And then I had the list that I think was genuine and accurate of what everybody should be producing.

[\[00:14:08\]](#transcript-00-14-08-171) And there weren't bad things, but the problem, Justin, always comes back to is: are we actually introducing people to what I would say soft Roman Catholicism?

[\[00:14:19\]](#transcript-00-14-19-172) I mean, really, this is the doorway into works-based assurance/slash salvation.

[\[00:14:24\]](#transcript-00-14-24-173) Sure.

[\[00:14:25\]](#transcript-00-14-25-174) Or some kind of easy listening legalism.

[\[00:14:28\]](#transcript-00-14-28-175) Or like you said, in bringing up Roman Catholic theology, it's important that people understand that Rome was never opposed to the talk of faith ever.

[\[00:14:37\]](#transcript-00-14-37-176) The issue in Rome has always been that it's always faith plus stuff.

[\[00:14:44\]](#transcript-00-14-44-177) It's always not, it's not that God saves you, it's that you and God together do this thing.

[\[00:14:49\]](#transcript-00-14-49-178) That's right.

[\[00:14:50\]](#transcript-00-14-50-179) That's the teaching of Rome.

[\[00:14:52\]](#transcript-00-14-52-180) And I think you have to Protestantism, go ahead.

[\[00:14:55\]](#transcript-00-14-55-181) Protestantism historically has said, no, God saves sinners.

[\[00:14:58\]](#transcript-00-14-58-182) Like, He does it.

[\[00:15:00\]](#transcript-00-15-00-183) You don't cooperate with Him to do it because if that's required of us, that's actually not good news at all.

[\[00:15:07\]](#transcript-00-15-07-184) Yeah, but I don't want to go off on that rabbit trail.

[\[00:15:10\]](#transcript-00-15-10-185) You were going to say something, and then I wanted to follow up on something you said, too.

[\[00:15:14\]](#transcript-00-15-14-186) I think you have to be able to identify when a pastor is confused in two ways, which we'll get to, but they get confused on the law and the gospel, which we've done a podcast on this.

[\[00:15:25\]](#transcript-00-15-25-187) Listen to the law, gospel, and lordship series.

[\[00:15:28\]](#transcript-00-15-28-188) Yeah.

[\[00:15:30\]](#transcript-00-15-30-189) The other thing that can happen is when there is only one level of Christianity, and that is, you know, whatever brand they're going to present to you, or there's only strong Christianity.

[\[00:15:43\]](#transcript-00-15-43-190) And the more and more I engage in God's word, I am greatly encouraged to be reminded that God has people at different areas of their life in the different journeys.

[\[00:15:55\]](#transcript-00-15-55-191) Paul literally says he identifies strong and weak Christians.

[\[00:15:59\]](#transcript-00-15-59-192) Galatians, you know, are Romans 15.

[\[00:16:01\]](#transcript-00-16-01-193) He says, Those of you who are strong have an obligation to deal with the weak.

[\[00:16:05\]](#transcript-00-16-05-194) So he has just identified, there are those who are strong in their faith.

[\[00:16:09\]](#transcript-00-16-09-195) He spent 14 chapters explaining what a strong Christian is, by the way.

[\[00:16:13\]](#transcript-00-16-13-196) So we're not left dangling, not knowing what he means.

[\[00:16:17\]](#transcript-00-16-17-197) And then, when you even look at a good example, is even looking at Corinthians when he's dealing with the Corinthian church in the very first introduction to the passage where he's about to deal with some horrific sins.

[\[00:16:28\]](#transcript-00-16-28-198) He identifies them as believers, but definitely confused.

[\[00:16:31\]](#transcript-00-16-31-199) And they are, they are, and then Ephesians 4, Paul says that the elders are to appropriately teach the congregation so they aren't tossed about by every wind of dockering or by human cunningness.

[\[00:16:43\]](#transcript-00-16-43-200) Justin, what does that mean?

[\[00:16:44\]](#transcript-00-16-44-201) That means we could be.

[\[00:16:47\]](#transcript-00-16-47-202) It's very possible to be led astray.

[\[00:16:49\]](#transcript-00-16-49-203) And so

[\[00:16:51\]](#transcript-00-16-51-204) when you go and exegete a passage, right, when you look at a particular verse in the Bible and you're pulling it apart, I think it's also important that you exegete your people and you look at people and say:

[\[00:17:03\]](#transcript-00-17-03-205) are the people sitting in front of me rejecting the faith?

[\[00:17:06\]](#transcript-00-17-06-206) Are they saying there's other ways to be saved outside of Jesus?

[\[00:17:10\]](#transcript-00-17-10-207) Or have they been tossed about?

[\[00:17:12\]](#transcript-00-17-12-208) Have they been led down a road with human cunningness?

[\[00:17:15\]](#transcript-00-17-15-209) So do I need to snuff out the faker?

[\[00:17:20\]](#transcript-00-17-20-210) But in either case, it doesn't make sense for me to trust anything else other than the gospel.

[\[00:17:25\]](#transcript-00-17-25-211) Or, I mean, I might even frame it this way, too.

[\[00:17:27\]](#transcript-00-17-27-212) If you're talking about exegeting your people, do you understand that you're pastoring a church?

[\[00:17:32\]](#transcript-00-17-32-213) I mean, obviously, I'm speaking as a preacher here, but like, and we're talking about preachers right now in one sense, right?

[\[00:17:37\]](#transcript-00-17-37-214) And people listening to this podcast listen to preachers.

[\[00:17:40\]](#transcript-00-17-40-215) So I trust this applies to everyone.

[\[00:17:42\]](#transcript-00-17-42-216) But do you, as a preacher, understand that you are preaching to a congregation of people who have no interest in the things of God?

[\[00:17:50\]](#transcript-00-17-50-217) Do you understand that you're preaching to people who have no desire to obey God's word?

[\[00:17:54\]](#transcript-00-17-54-218) you, or are, Or are you preaching to people who want to obey God's word, want to be godly, want to love God more, want to love each other more, yet struggle to do so.

[\[00:18:07\]](#transcript-00-18-07-219) And if it's the latter, which is what my church is, John, it's what your church is.

[\[00:18:12\]](#transcript-00-18-12-220) That's right.

[\[00:18:13\]](#transcript-00-18-13-221) If it's the latter, then we should preach accordingly, right?

[\[00:18:16\]](#transcript-00-18-16-222) If you think it's the former that you're preaching to people who are just flat out disinterested, then your message needs to be one, as we've said a million times, of law and gospel, not just of bludgeoning people and

[\[00:18:29\]](#transcript-00-18-29-223) trying to unsettle only.

[\[00:18:31\]](#transcript-00-18-31-224) But you know, you need to preach law and gospel.

[\[00:18:33\]](#transcript-00-18-33-225) But one way to highlight this, I think, the issue that we're trying to put our finger on today, I think it's indicative of a problem.

[\[00:18:42\]](#transcript-00-18-42-226) It's illustrative of the issue when usually the question that's asked in the church context of people is always: what are you doing?

[\[00:18:54\]](#transcript-00-18-54-227) Right?

[\[00:18:54\]](#transcript-00-18-54-228) If you're going to talk about legitimacy in Christ, the question is always: what are you doing, not who are you trusting?

[\[00:19:03\]](#transcript-00-19-03-229) That's right.

[\[00:19:04\]](#transcript-00-19-04-230) And I might even say, who are you trusting, and what are you trusting him for?

[\[00:19:09\]](#transcript-00-19-09-231) That's right.

[\[00:19:10\]](#transcript-00-19-10-232) Right.

[\[00:19:10\]](#transcript-00-19-10-233) Like those, those are the questions we should ask people.

[\[00:19:14\]](#transcript-00-19-14-234) Like, if you're saying, is a person legitimate in the faith?

[\[00:19:16\]](#transcript-00-19-16-235) Am I legitimately a Christian?

[\[00:19:18\]](#transcript-00-19-18-236) Rather than asking them first off, well, tell me what you're doing, and I'll tell you whether you're legit.

[\[00:19:23\]](#transcript-00-19-23-237) I would rather say, Well, no, okay, well, who do you trust?

[\[00:19:26\]](#transcript-00-19-26-238) What do you trust?

[\[00:19:28\]](#transcript-00-19-28-239) In terms of you're a sinner, yeah, okay, yeah, uh, God's holy, yes, and he's righteous and just?

[\[00:19:34\]](#transcript-00-19-34-240) Yes.

[\[00:19:34\]](#transcript-00-19-34-241) Okay.

[\[00:19:35\]](#transcript-00-19-35-242) Well, who are you trusting and what are you trusting in?

[\[00:19:38\]](#transcript-00-19-38-243) And why are you trusting him?

[\[00:19:40\]](#transcript-00-19-40-244) You know, as it stands, as it pertains to your standing before the Lord, let's start there.

[\[00:19:45\]](#transcript-00-19-45-245) You know, if we're going to assess the legitimacy of someone's faith, amen.

[\[00:19:49\]](#transcript-00-19-49-246) Um, because I think the interesting thing, John, is the answers that you get to some of those questions.

[\[00:19:54\]](#transcript-00-19-54-247) Oh, yeah, but who are you trusting?

[\[00:19:56\]](#transcript-00-19-56-248) What are you trusting?

[\[00:19:57\]](#transcript-00-19-57-249) And some people, even in the church, they look at you kind of like, Are you digging for a particular answer?

[\[00:20:03\]](#transcript-00-20-03-250) Like, they don't even quite know how to answer it because so much of what they've been taught their whole Christian lives is about them and about what they need to do.

[\[00:20:11\]](#transcript-00-20-11-251) Yeah, well, even saying to them, Well, tell me the good news.

[\[00:20:14\]](#transcript-00-20-14-252) Like, what's the good news?

[\[00:20:15\]](#transcript-00-20-15-253) Or you could say the gospel, but say, hey, tell me the good news.

[\[00:20:18\]](#transcript-00-20-18-254) And they get done telling you the good news, and you're like, that's not good news.

[\[00:20:21\]](#transcript-00-20-21-255) That's bad news.

[\[00:20:23\]](#transcript-00-20-23-256) Like, if that's what you think is saving you, that's good.

[\[00:20:25\]](#transcript-00-20-25-257) You know, it's trouble.

[\[00:20:26\]](#transcript-00-20-26-258) And this is probably another podcast for another day: is you know, you get you ask people what the gospel is, and they really talk.

[\[00:20:33\]](#transcript-00-20-33-259) If they were to talk to you for five minutes about the good news, in reality, they talk to you for the majority of that time about the law.

[\[00:20:40\]](#transcript-00-20-40-260) That's right.

[\[00:20:41\]](#transcript-00-20-41-261) They talk about God creating everything, which is appropriate.

[\[00:20:43\]](#transcript-00-20-43-262) They talk about everything being good and all that, and then the sin of man ruining it, and the righteousness of God, and God's requirements and all of that.

[\[00:20:54\]](#transcript-00-20-54-263) But that is all law.

[\[00:20:57\]](#transcript-00-20-57-264) And it's only in talking about the person and work of Christ, like who He is and what He came to do for us in our place, what he did that we could never do for ourselves.

[\[00:21:08\]](#transcript-00-21-08-265) That alone is the gospel.

[\[00:21:10\]](#transcript-00-21-10-266) And sure, we need to talk about the lost.

[\[00:21:12\]](#transcript-00-21-12-267) We understand why the gospel is necessary.

[\[00:21:14\]](#transcript-00-21-14-268) I agree with that, but the gospel is about Christ exclusively.

[\[00:21:19\]](#transcript-00-21-19-269) And it's very interesting how people have not been taught at No, and it's confused.

[\[00:21:23\]](#transcript-00-21-23-270) the position to say that.

[\[00:21:24\]](#transcript-00-21-24-271) That's right.

[\[00:21:25\]](#transcript-00-21-25-272) I mean, you have 2 Timothy.

[\[00:21:27\]](#transcript-00-21-27-273) I mentioned this in my sermon, but you have 2 Timothy where Paul warns saying you're going to have people who have itchy ears.

[\[00:21:35\]](#transcript-00-21-35-274) And the problem is not that people have itchy ears.

[\[00:21:38\]](#transcript-00-21-38-275) The problem is that the pastors gave into it.

[\[00:21:40\]](#transcript-00-21-40-276) That's the problem.

[\[00:21:41\]](#transcript-00-21-41-277) And so you have people who don't know the gospel because instead of preaching Christ and him crucified and really bringing forth and bearing down on the law so that we might rest upon Christ, we teach them little laws

[\[00:21:54\]](#transcript-00-21-54-278) and we teach them moral Christ, little laws, meaning you can obey them.

[\[00:21:58\]](#transcript-00-21-58-279) And here's how Jesus did.

[\[00:22:00\]](#transcript-00-22-00-280) Here's the thing about what, here's what's great.

[\[00:22:02\]](#transcript-00-22-02-281) This is what will lead us into what saving faith is.

[\[00:22:05\]](#transcript-00-22-05-282) Here's what's great about the gospel, the good news.

[\[00:22:09\]](#transcript-00-22-09-283) When you hear someone describe a miracle, you don't hear them describe it in such a way that there is something to be done.

[\[00:22:18\]](#transcript-00-22-18-284) It's a miracle because they're like, it couldn't be, there's no way this was going to happen.

[\[00:22:23\]](#transcript-00-22-23-285) There's no way it was good.

[\[00:22:24\]](#transcript-00-22-24-286) You hear the impossibility, right?

[\[00:22:26\]](#transcript-00-22-26-287) And then, what's the good news about the miracle?

[\[00:22:28\]](#transcript-00-22-28-288) It's like, and then this happened, right?

[\[00:22:31\]](#transcript-00-22-31-289) So, that's what the good news of the gospel is.

[\[00:22:34\]](#transcript-00-22-34-290) It's like, there's no way you can save yourself, there's no way God would ever redeem you.

[\[00:22:38\]](#transcript-00-22-38-291) And then, guess what?

[\[00:22:40\]](#transcript-00-22-40-292) Miracle.

[\[00:22:41\]](#transcript-00-22-41-293) It's called Jesus transforms you by the power of the Spirit.

[\[00:22:46\]](#transcript-00-22-46-294) The gospel should always be good news.

[\[00:22:48\]](#transcript-00-22-48-295) And really, it's the good news of the miracle of regeneration.

[\[00:22:52\]](#transcript-00-22-52-296) I mean, this is, I love how Jesus describes it to Nicodemus.

[\[00:22:56\]](#transcript-00-22-56-297) He says, You must be born again.

[\[00:22:58\]](#transcript-00-22-58-298) And that's a miraculous thing.

[\[00:22:59\]](#transcript-00-22-59-299) And Nicodemus goes, I can't be done.

[\[00:23:01\]](#transcript-00-23-01-300) Like, he is.

[\[00:23:02\]](#transcript-00-23-02-301) I love it.

[\[00:23:03\]](#transcript-00-23-03-302) Jesus describes it as a miracle, and then Nicodemus goes, I can't perform that miracle.

[\[00:23:07\]](#transcript-00-23-07-303) He goes, Now you're getting it.

[\[00:23:09\]](#transcript-00-23-09-304) Now you see it

[\[00:23:12\]](#transcript-00-23-12-305) if you're new to Theocast, we have a free e-book available for you called Faith vs.

[\[00:23:17\]](#transcript-00-23-17-306) Faithfulness: A Primer Unrest.

[\[00:23:19\]](#transcript-00-23-19-307) And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a reformed confessional perspective.

[\[00:23:30\]](#transcript-00-23-30-308) You can get your free copy at theocast.org/slash primer.

[\[00:23:37\]](#transcript-00-23-37-309) All right, so we're going to pivot.

[\[00:23:39\]](#transcript-00-23-39-310) I think we've done a decent amount of deconstructing and identifying.

[\[00:23:43\]](#transcript-00-23-43-311) Here's the situation: like many people are being unsettled on the regular by either YouTube, podcast speakers, or maybe even their own pastors, who knows?

[\[00:23:54\]](#transcript-00-23-54-312) Sure.

[\[00:23:55\]](#transcript-00-23-55-313) Or just their own conscience.

[\[00:23:57\]](#transcript-00-23-57-314) And that's always a thing.

[\[00:23:58\]](#transcript-00-23-58-315) And Satan also is the great accuser of the brethren.

[\[00:24:01\]](#transcript-00-24-01-316) So we've got a lot going on here.

[\[00:24:03\]](#transcript-00-24-03-317) Our own consciences accuse us, the devil accuses us, and then oftentimes we have that piled on to by preachers that we listen to, maybe even pastors that we sit under.

[\[00:24:16\]](#transcript-00-24-16-318) And so we wrestle a lot with whether or not we're legitimate.

[\[00:24:20\]](#transcript-00-24-20-319) And I think any of us, if we're honest, brother, ask this question at least from time to time: like, is my faith legit?

[\[00:24:28\]](#transcript-00-24-28-320) Is my faith genuine.

[\[00:24:31\]](#transcript-00-24-31-321) I think that that kind of struggle and doubt is part and parcel of what it is to be fallen.

[\[00:24:36\]](#transcript-00-24-36-322) And so, you know, in seeking to answer that question, there is a better way, you know, to go about answering it than by assessing what you're doing all the time or how you're feeling all the time.

[\[00:24:47\]](#transcript-00-24-47-323) Not that we shouldn't think about those things.

[\[00:24:49\]](#transcript-00-24-49-324) And there's a better way to go about this in the church than by just frightening people, frankly, on the regular.

[\[00:24:55\]](#transcript-00-24-55-325) So, we want to pivot now and talk some about what is faith and what is saving faith, what's genuine faith.

[\[00:25:01\]](#transcript-00-25-01-326) I mean, fill in your descriptor there.

[\[00:25:03\]](#transcript-00-25-03-327) What does that look like?

[\[00:25:05\]](#transcript-00-25-05-328) How would we define that biblically?

[\[00:25:07\]](#transcript-00-25-07-329) And is this whole understanding of like we're saved by faith is that legit?

[\[00:25:12\]](#transcript-00-25-12-330) What do the confessions say?

[\[00:25:14\]](#transcript-00-25-14-331) And so that's where we're going to turn now.

[\[00:25:16\]](#transcript-00-25-16-332) And then we definitely, I know I am excited to answer the objection from James chapter 2 in verse 19 in particular: that's right, you do, if you believe, you do well, but hey, the demons believe.

[\[00:25:30\]](#transcript-00-25-30-333) You know, and so how many times has that been thrown at us, you know, at people proverbially, right?

[\[00:25:37\]](#transcript-00-25-37-334) That, oh, well, you know, if you just believe, I mean, even the demons do that.

[\[00:25:41\]](#transcript-00-25-41-335) And I'm like, well, if you understand faith the way that we're going to talk about it biblically and confessionally, the demons actually don't do that.

[\[00:25:48\]](#transcript-00-25-48-336) So we're going to get to that.

[\[00:25:51\]](#transcript-00-25-51-337) So, John, let's start with the Bible and the confessions and just kind of popcorn some of these off.

[\[00:25:56\]](#transcript-00-25-56-338) There's too many references to name, but we're just going to kind of speak some of these that come to mind.

[\[00:26:01\]](#transcript-00-26-01-339) I'll start us off in John 3 really quick.

[\[00:26:03\]](#transcript-00-26-03-340) Okay.

[\[00:26:03\]](#transcript-00-26-03-341) And then Can you you can pile on here.

[\[00:26:06\]](#transcript-00-26-06-342) Sounds great.

[\[00:26:07\]](#transcript-00-26-07-343) So you mentioned Nicodemus, right, and Jesus' conversation with him.

[\[00:26:10\]](#transcript-00-26-10-344) It's a good place to start, just thinking about faith and what does it mean to have faith?

[\[00:26:16\]](#transcript-00-26-16-345) So Jesus is talking to Nicodemus and references Numbers chapter 21, you know, and the serpent, the bronze serpent that's lifted up on a pole.

[\[00:26:24\]](#transcript-00-26-24-346) And the Israelites, when they look at that, if they look to it, they're healed from the snake bites they've received and stuff.

[\[00:26:30\]](#transcript-00-26-30-347) So he says, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up.

[\[00:26:36\]](#transcript-00-26-36-348) And he's talking about himself on the cross.

[\[00:26:38\]](#transcript-00-26-38-349) That whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

[\[00:26:42\]](#transcript-00-26-42-350) So, whoever believes in the Son of Man, who is going to be lifted up for the sake of humanity, whoever is believing in him will have eternal life.

[\[00:26:51\]](#transcript-00-26-51-351) And then, of course, the very next verse is one of the most famous in all the scriptures.

[\[00:26:55\]](#transcript-00-26-55-352) For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[\[00:27:02\]](#transcript-00-27-02-353) And so we're believing in particular in a person.

[\[00:27:07\]](#transcript-00-27-07-354) We're believing more pointedly in this son of man whom God has sent into the world.

[\[00:27:13\]](#transcript-00-27-13-355) And our belief in him has quite a bit to do with the fact that he's going to be lifted up on a cross for our sakes.

[\[00:27:22\]](#transcript-00-27-22-356) So we'll start the ball rolling with that, John, and give us the next one.

[\[00:27:26\]](#transcript-00-27-26-357) Yeah, absolutely.

[\[00:27:28\]](#transcript-00-27-28-358) So we have to boil this down to when Jesus says this, it's not in the sense where he is ignoring who he is, right, in the context.

[\[00:27:41\]](#transcript-00-27-41-359) So when Jesus is talking to Nicodemus.

[\[00:27:43\]](#transcript-00-27-43-360) Nicodemus is not an ignorant Jew who has no concept of Jesus Messiah.

[\[00:27:51\]](#transcript-00-27-51-361) And he even rebukes him and says, Why are you asking me about this?

[\[00:27:54\]](#transcript-00-27-54-362) You should know this.

[\[00:27:55\]](#transcript-00-27-55-363) Why are you so surprised by my answers?

[\[00:27:58\]](#transcript-00-27-58-364) Jesus is trying to help him understand: I am the fulfillment of the promises of God, right?

[\[00:28:03\]](#transcript-00-28-03-365) There, well, there has been a promise to restore the store humans back to God.

[\[00:28:09\]](#transcript-00-28-09-366) It came, the first promise came to Eve and further explained to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and David, and the prophets, all the way to today.

[\[00:28:17\]](#transcript-00-28-17-367) And he literally, Jesus says, the law and the prophets are about me, I am the fulfillment of that.

[\[00:28:23\]](#transcript-00-28-23-368) So when you ask yourself, do I have genuine faith?

[\[00:28:26\]](#transcript-00-28-26-369) Can you look at Jesus and say, he's genuinely real?

[\[00:28:30\]](#transcript-00-28-30-370) He genuinely came and was born of Mary.

[\[00:28:33\]](#transcript-00-28-33-371) Yeah, do you believe that Jesus is the plan of God to save sinners?

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-372) That's right.

[\[00:28:38\]](#transcript-00-28-38-373) Like that he is the yes and amen to all of God's promises, and that he understood, you know, Jesus understood himself to be that.

[\[00:28:45\]](#transcript-00-28-45-374) And do you understand that this has always been God's plan to save his people through what this man, this God-man named Jesus of Nazareth, would accomplish.

[\[00:28:56\]](#transcript-00-28-56-375) That's right.

[\[00:28:57\]](#transcript-00-28-57-376) That is the million-dollar question, right?

[\[00:28:59\]](#transcript-00-28-59-377) I mean, staying in John's gospel in chapter five.

[\[00:29:01\]](#transcript-00-29-01-378) I mean, super brief flyover.

[\[00:29:02\]](#transcript-00-29-02-379) You've got all kinds of epic stuff in that chapter.

[\[00:29:05\]](#transcript-00-29-05-380) You know, where Jesus has said earlier in John 5 that whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life.

[\[00:29:13\]](#transcript-00-29-13-381) He says that.

[\[00:29:14\]](#transcript-00-29-14-382) And then he's going to go on and tell this Jewish audience that they search the scriptures, thinking that in them they find eternal life.

[\[00:29:20\]](#transcript-00-29-20-383) To your point, and it is they, the scriptures, that bear witness about me.

[\[00:29:25\]](#transcript-00-29-25-384) That's right.

[\[00:29:25\]](#transcript-00-29-25-385) Right.

[\[00:29:26\]](#transcript-00-29-26-386) So, again, it's about Christ.

[\[00:29:28\]](#transcript-00-29-28-387) It's about the fact that everything that God's been revealing before he came was about him, and that salvation was going to be accomplished by him when he showed up.

[\[00:29:36\]](#transcript-00-29-36-388) And now he's calling people to believe in the testimony of God, but in particular, it's the testimony of God about him.

[\[00:29:44\]](#transcript-00-29-44-389) And so he's saying, believe in me and what I've come to do.

[\[00:29:47\]](#transcript-00-29-47-390) And then even he even goes on to say that if you believe Moses, you know, who wrote the law, the Torah.

[\[00:29:54\]](#transcript-00-29-54-391) If you believe Moses, you would believe what I'm saying because he wrote of me.

[\[00:29:59\]](#transcript-00-29-59-392) Yeah.

[\[00:30:00\]](#transcript-00-30-00-393) So Romans 10.

[\[00:30:02\]](#transcript-00-30-02-394) This is helpful.

[\[00:30:03\]](#transcript-00-30-03-395) We're going to combine Romans 10 and John 6 together.

[\[00:30:05\]](#transcript-00-30-05-396) Why not?

[\[00:30:06\]](#transcript-00-30-06-397) What wonderful passages in the Bible?

[\[00:30:08\]](#transcript-00-30-08-398) Right?

[\[00:30:09\]](#transcript-00-30-09-399) So Paul says, Romans 10:9: If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[\[00:30:19\]](#transcript-00-30-19-400) For with the heart, one believes and is justified, and with the mouth, one's confessed and is saved.

[\[00:30:25\]](#transcript-00-30-25-401) For the scripture says, Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.

[\[00:30:30\]](#transcript-00-30-30-402) Shame, meaning you will not carry the guilt of your sin.

[\[00:30:34\]](#transcript-00-30-34-403) You will, and you need to understand he's using words like heart, and he's using words like mouth.

[\[00:30:40\]](#transcript-00-30-40-404) And the point of it is: if you're willing to say, I, I will not identify with anyone else but Jesus Christ.

[\[00:30:48\]](#transcript-00-30-48-405) I believe that his death and his resurrection are sufficient to receive forgiveness and righteousness from Jesus.

[\[00:30:56\]](#transcript-00-30-56-406) That's what he's saying.

[\[00:30:57\]](#transcript-00-30-57-407) If you're willing to confess that, you can know you're saved.

[\[00:31:00\]](#transcript-00-31-00-408) Romans 10, verse 4, just a few verses earlier than what you read.

[\[00:31:03\]](#transcript-00-31-03-409) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

[\[00:31:08\]](#transcript-00-31-08-410) So that's right.

[\[00:31:09\]](#transcript-00-31-09-411) that goes with this.

[\[00:31:10\]](#transcript-00-31-10-412) Like, he trusting him is our righteousness, right?

[\[00:31:14\]](#transcript-00-31-14-413) Like, do you believe that?

[\[00:31:16\]](#transcript-00-31-16-414) Or do you think that you need to keep the law?

[\[00:31:18\]](#transcript-00-31-18-415) You need to keep the law to earn merit and righteousness in the sight of God, or are you trusting Christ for that?

[\[00:31:25\]](#transcript-00-31-25-416) That's right.

[\[00:31:26\]](#transcript-00-31-26-417) So then the question, Justin, is: okay, I hear what you're saying, and I know I believe that.

[\[00:31:31\]](#transcript-00-31-31-418) You teased John 6 out.

[\[00:31:32\]](#transcript-00-31-32-419) Oh, I'm going there right now.

[\[00:31:34\]](#transcript-00-31-34-420) Okay, bro.

[\[00:31:35\]](#transcript-00-31-35-421) Setting it up, bro.

[\[00:31:36\]](#transcript-00-31-36-422) I'm putting the ball on the team.

[\[00:31:37\]](#transcript-00-31-37-423) Hey, I'm sorry.

[\[00:31:37\]](#transcript-00-31-37-424) We're pulling out the driver.

[\[00:31:38\]](#transcript-00-31-38-425) We're about to put this thing in the fairway, man.

[\[00:31:40\]](#transcript-00-31-40-426) Come on.

[\[00:31:40\]](#transcript-00-31-40-427) Put a peg in the ground.

[\[00:31:41\]](#transcript-00-31-41-428) Keep it in the shortgrass.

[\[00:31:42\]](#transcript-00-31-42-429) Here we go.

[\[00:31:43\]](#transcript-00-31-43-430) Yeah, we need some good recommendations golf course recommendations in Knoxville.

[\[00:31:47\]](#transcript-00-31-47-431) Anyone can recommend it.

[\[00:31:48\]](#transcript-00-31-48-432) Hit us up.

[\[00:31:48\]](#transcript-00-31-48-433) Come on now.

[\[00:31:49\]](#transcript-00-31-49-434) All right.

[\[00:31:50\]](#transcript-00-31-50-435) So you you hear, okay, guys, I hear you, John.

[\[00:31:54\]](#transcript-00-31-54-436) I hear you, Justin.

[\[00:31:56\]](#transcript-00-31-56-437) But

[\[00:31:57\]](#transcript-00-31-57-438) I know there's people who say they believe in the resurrection of Jesus and they believe in all of this stuff, but they're not genuine Christians.

[\[00:32:06\]](#transcript-00-32-06-439) They're going to get to heaven and God's going to say to them, Depart from me, I never knew you.

[\[00:32:10\]](#transcript-00-32-10-440) How do I know that my faith that I have in all of these data is not just in my brain, but as Romans says, it's in my heart.

[\[00:32:18\]](#transcript-00-32-18-441) Like, how do I know that it's genuine faith?

[\[00:32:21\]](#transcript-00-32-21-442) It's not just produced by head knowledge.

[\[00:32:23\]](#transcript-00-32-23-443) And this is where John 6 comes in.

[\[00:32:25\]](#transcript-00-32-25-444) You see, these people standing before Jesus, literally from John 5, which you just had just read, they just saw Jesus feed 5,000 people, 5,000 from a loaf of bread.

[\[00:32:36\]](#transcript-00-32-36-445) I mean, you have to understand the witness level of that.

[\[00:32:39\]](#transcript-00-32-39-446) It wasn't as if there was a market nearby and they could have somehow shuffled that in there and it would have worked.

[\[00:32:44\]](#transcript-00-32-44-447) He had them sit out in the middle of a field, and all of a sudden, these disciples are walking out with baskets, and they're all watching Jesus divide it.

[\[00:32:54\]](#transcript-00-32-54-448) So then they walk up to him when they're.

[\[00:32:56\]](#transcript-00-32-56-449) Go ahead.

[\[00:32:56\]](#transcript-00-32-56-450) And I just want to geek out for a second.

[\[00:32:58\]](#transcript-00-32-58-451) Jesus has just miraculously walked on water, he's crossed a body of water.

[\[00:33:03\]](#transcript-00-33-03-452) People are in a wilderness, and he feeds them with bread from heaven.

[\[00:33:07\]](#transcript-00-33-07-453) That's right.

[\[00:33:07\]](#transcript-00-33-07-454) It's like not screams, Exodus, but anyway, exactly.

[\[00:33:11\]](#transcript-00-33-11-455) And these people should see this.

[\[00:33:13\]](#transcript-00-33-13-456) Yeah, so they go, they start.

[\[00:33:15\]](#transcript-00-33-15-457) Jesus starts teaching, and they kind of abruptly say, Yeah, okay, so he's claiming to be the Messiah, but we know his dad.

[\[00:33:22\]](#transcript-00-33-22-458) His dad's Joseph.

[\[00:33:24\]](#transcript-00-33-24-459) what's who does he think he is?

[\[00:33:26\]](#transcript-00-33-26-460) And so they welcome him, all right.

[\[00:33:28\]](#transcript-00-33-28-461) Look, speak plainly.

[\[00:33:30\]](#transcript-00-33-30-462) Tell us, are you the Messiah?

[\[00:33:31\]](#transcript-00-33-31-463) And I just, there are scenes that I wish somehow we could, like, I'm sure we'll be able to talk with Jesus, obviously, personally, and say, hey, tell us about John 6, because that's like this epic part of the

[\[00:33:42\]](#transcript-00-33-42-464) whole story of our salvation.

[\[00:33:45\]](#transcript-00-33-45-465) And I'm just wondering if Jesus raised an eyebrow out of, like, are you kidding me?

[\[00:33:49\]](#transcript-00-33-49-466) Like, did you not just see what I did?

[\[00:33:51\]](#transcript-00-33-51-467) Did you have you ever seen anybody do that before?

[\[00:33:55\]](#transcript-00-33-55-468) And at the end, there's a whole purpose for why John records this because of verse 44.

[\[00:33:59\]](#transcript-00-33-59-469) He says, No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

[\[00:34:05\]](#transcript-00-34-05-470) And what he's telling him is that you guys can see me

[\[00:34:09\]](#transcript-00-34-09-471) produce power, not that you can't even explain, and you won't believe because believing in me requires an act of the spirit.

[\[00:34:21\]](#transcript-00-34-21-472) This is John 3: the Spirit moves wherever he wishes.

[\[00:34:24\]](#transcript-00-34-24-473) He's telling Nicodemus this.

[\[00:34:26\]](#transcript-00-34-26-474) So, the reason I tell you this entire story is that if you can look at Jesus and say, without him, I have no hope, and I trust in Him alone to save me.

[\[00:34:37\]](#transcript-00-34-37-475) That, according to Jesus, is an act of the Spirit that has come upon you and opened your eyes and opened your ears and brought your stony heart to life, and you cannot believe on Jesus with faith unless it

[\[00:34:54\]](#transcript-00-34-54-476) has been given to you.

[\[00:34:55\]](#transcript-00-34-55-477) And you need to trust the word of God when it tells you that.

[\[00:34:58\]](#transcript-00-34-58-478) And this whole foolishness of, yeah, but how do I know if it's genuine?

[\[00:35:02\]](#transcript-00-35-02-479) Jesus just told you it is genuine.

[\[00:35:04\]](#transcript-00-35-04-480) Right.

[\[00:35:05\]](#transcript-00-35-05-481) And we talk about this a decent amount.

[\[00:35:06\]](#transcript-00-35-06-482) Like, how much faith is required?

[\[00:35:09\]](#transcript-00-35-09-483) Any.

[\[00:35:10\]](#transcript-00-35-10-484) Can I read the confession here right now?

[\[00:35:13\]](#transcript-00-35-13-485) I'm going to cite John 6:40 real quick.

[\[00:35:15\]](#transcript-00-35-15-486) And then you look up the confession.

[\[00:35:17\]](#transcript-00-35-17-487) So, I mean, in light of all this, I mean, just keep in mind everything that we're talking about right now.

[\[00:35:21\]](#transcript-00-35-21-488) Like, if, if you believe in Jesus, that did not come from you.

[\[00:35:25\]](#transcript-00-35-25-489) If you're looking to him and saying, yeah, I need you.

[\[00:35:28\]](#transcript-00-35-28-490) I need what you've done.

[\[00:35:30\]](#transcript-00-35-30-491) I can't do it.

[\[00:35:31\]](#transcript-00-35-31-492) You did it for me.

[\[00:35:32\]](#transcript-00-35-32-493) And I'm trusting you and your righteousness for me and your death for me, that you've fulfilled the penalty of the law and that you've conquered death and hell.

[\[00:35:40\]](#transcript-00-35-40-494) I mean, you are believing in Christ for the reason that he came, and that didn't originate with you.

[\[00:35:47\]](#transcript-00-35-47-495) And take comfort in this word from John 6:40.

[\[00:35:51\]](#transcript-00-35-51-496) Jesus says, For this is the will of my Father.

[\[00:35:54\]](#transcript-00-35-54-497) So, whenever, whenever God the Son steps up and says, Hey, here's what the Father wills, we should listen because He knows what He's talking about.

[\[00:36:03\]](#transcript-00-36-03-498) This is the will of my Father that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

[\[00:36:15\]](#transcript-00-36-15-499) Like, God is not confused about this.

[\[00:36:18\]](#transcript-00-36-18-500) And the Father is in this with the Son, as is the Spirit, right?

[\[00:36:23\]](#transcript-00-36-23-501) And faith is a gift of God.

[\[00:36:25\]](#transcript-00-36-25-502) And if anyone is looking away from him or herself, away from his or her own righteousness and works and all that, and looking to Christ for righteousness and forgiveness and eternal life, then it is the will of the

[\[00:36:39\]](#transcript-00-36-39-503) Father that you be saved, and Jesus will see to it that you will be saved.

[\[00:36:45\]](#transcript-00-36-45-504) Man, it's good.

[\[00:36:46\]](#transcript-00-36-46-505) It's a good word, dude.

[\[00:36:47\]](#transcript-00-36-47-506) That's right.

[\[00:36:48\]](#transcript-00-36-48-507) So, for those that are new to confessions, these are documents that are extremely important to the history of the church.

[\[00:36:54\]](#transcript-00-36-54-508) We have creeds and confessions, and these are always birthed out of controversy and confusion and heresy.

[\[00:37:02\]](#transcript-00-37-02-509) And they are designed to help explain the Bible to the Christian and how they should interact with God and His Word.

[\[00:37:10\]](#transcript-00-37-10-510) And in the confession, these men who wrote this down wisely concluded from Scripture.

[\[00:37:16\]](#transcript-00-37-16-511) This is chapter 14:3 underneath saving faith, this faith may exist in varying degrees so that it may be either weak or strong.

[\[00:37:26\]](#transcript-00-37-26-512) Amen.

[\[00:37:27\]](#transcript-00-37-27-513) You know, we already gave examples of this where Paul says in Romans 15, right, strong faith versus weak.

[\[00:37:34\]](#transcript-00-37-34-514) And I think anytime Paul is describing, or the New Testament is describing a strong Christian, I think it's describing the person who is fully with deep conviction trusting in the sufficiency of Christ.

[\[00:37:45\]](#transcript-00-37-45-515) I don't believe Paul is talking about someone who is in performance well, moral performance doesn't mean you have strong faith.

[\[00:37:53\]](#transcript-00-37-53-516) That's not a one-to-one correlation.

[\[00:37:56\]](#transcript-00-37-56-517) Yeah, I mean, if anything, I think to consider a strong Christian, I mean, in thinking of the language of Paul, right?

[\[00:38:03\]](#transcript-00-38-03-518) And he'll use that strong and weak stuff a lot when he's talking about issues of conscience and Christian freedom and things like that.

[\[00:38:10\]](#transcript-00-38-10-519) And the one that he calls strong is the one who understands that what I do when it comes to eating or drinking or those kinds of things actually has no bearing on my righteousness.

[\[00:38:22\]](#transcript-00-38-22-520) That's right.

[\[00:38:23\]](#transcript-00-38-23-521) Right?

[\[00:38:23\]](#transcript-00-38-23-522) That's what strength means: it's that that person understands where his or her righteousness comes from.

[\[00:38:30\]](#transcript-00-38-30-523) And that is from no other place than from Christ.

[\[00:38:34\]](#transcript-00-38-34-524) You know, and so then the strong Christian, this is the irony, right, John?

[\[00:38:37\]](#transcript-00-38-37-525) The strong Christian, if we're going to use that language, he is certain that his or her righteousness and standing before the Lord comes completely from Christ.

[\[00:38:47\]](#transcript-00-38-47-526) And then that same strong Christian, you know, who understands that reality is propelled by that knowledge of Christ to then go and love neighbor and pursue good works.

[\[00:38:59\]](#transcript-00-38-59-527) That's right.

[\[00:39:00\]](#transcript-00-39-00-528) Well, they see the joy of it, they see that to love God and neighbor brings forth joy.

[\[00:39:07\]](#transcript-00-39-07-529) But they're not doing it out of slavery.

[\[00:39:10\]](#transcript-00-39-10-530) You know, it's not bondage, it's freedom.

[\[00:39:12\]](#transcript-00-39-12-531) That's right.

[\[00:39:12\]](#transcript-00-39-12-532) So, those who are strong in faith are not being deceived by the world.

[\[00:39:17\]](#transcript-00-39-17-533) In other words, they're not being tempted to trust in their own wealth, their own health, their own actions.

[\[00:39:24\]](#transcript-00-39-24-534) They are set free.

[\[00:39:25\]](#transcript-00-39-25-535) This is the ultimate joy of Christianity is to be set free from the fear of performance and set our firm foundation on Christ.

[\[00:39:36\]](#transcript-00-39-36-536) This is why we do this podcast.

[\[00:39:38\]](#transcript-00-39-38-537) If someone's resting on Christ, I say this to my congregants.

[\[00:39:41\]](#transcript-00-39-41-538) If someone is resting on Christ, they now have the energy to reach out and help others do the same.

[\[00:39:48\]](#transcript-00-39-48-539) Yeah, the strong Christian is not only not being deceived by the world, they're not being deceived by, I'll just, I'll say it, they're not being deceived by legalism and moralism.

[\[00:39:59\]](#transcript-00-39-59-540) They understood Russians, right?

[\[00:40:01\]](#transcript-00-40-01-541) Right.

[\[00:40:02\]](#transcript-00-40-02-542) They're not being deceived by this stuff.

[\[00:40:04\]](#transcript-00-40-04-543) They know from where their righteousness comes, they know where their security lies.

[\[00:40:09\]](#transcript-00-40-09-544) They know who their surety is to use the language of the old hymns, and his name is Jesus.

[\[00:40:15\]](#transcript-00-40-15-545) That's right.

[\[00:40:16\]](#transcript-00-40-16-546) And yeah, I mean, it's huge.

[\[00:40:20\]](#transcript-00-40-20-547) I mean, so I just want to read very briefly again from chapter 14, just one sentence and might unpack it for a second and then I'll kick it back over to you.

[\[00:40:27\]](#transcript-00-40-27-548) So this is also in the 1689 London Baptist Confession, chapter 14 on saving faith, paragraph 2 at the end.

[\[00:40:33\]](#transcript-00-40-33-549) So this is right before what John just read.

[\[00:40:35\]](#transcript-00-40-35-550) The principal acts of saving faith focus directly on Christ, accepting, receiving, and resting upon Him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of the covenant of grace.

[\[00:40:48\]](#transcript-00-40-48-551) All right, so just real quick, saving faith, it focuses directly on Christ.

[\[00:40:52\]](#transcript-00-40-52-552) So it's about Jesus.

[\[00:40:54\]](#transcript-00-40-54-553) You're looking to Jesus, if that's not already abundantly clear in what we've been saying.

[\[00:40:59\]](#transcript-00-40-59-554) And then these words: accepting, receiving, and resting.

[\[00:41:03\]](#transcript-00-41-03-555) So we are obviously believing things about Christ and what He came to do, but we are accepting what He has done.

[\[00:41:11\]](#transcript-00-41-11-556) We're receiving, right, what He has done in our place.

[\[00:41:16\]](#transcript-00-41-16-557) And that means his righteous life.

[\[00:41:18\]](#transcript-00-41-18-558) That means his atoning death and making satisfaction for our sins, etc.

[\[00:41:23\]](#transcript-00-41-23-559) And then we are resting upon him alone, so not upon him and some other stuff.

[\[00:41:28\]](#transcript-00-41-28-560) It's not upon him and our affections.

[\[00:41:31\]](#transcript-00-41-31-561) It's not him and our obedience.

[\[00:41:32\]](#transcript-00-41-32-562) It's not him and our good works or him and our desire to obey.

[\[00:41:37\]](#transcript-00-41-37-563) We're resting upon him alone for justification.

[\[00:41:41\]](#transcript-00-41-41-564) So that's being declared just in God's sight for sanctification.

[\[00:41:46\]](#transcript-00-41-46-565) Holy smokes.

[\[00:41:47\]](#transcript-00-41-47-566) You want to talk about something controversial?

[\[00:41:48\]](#transcript-00-41-48-567) We're trusting Christ for our ongoing transformation.

[\[00:41:52\]](#transcript-00-41-52-568) That's right.

[\[00:41:52\]](#transcript-00-41-52-569) For He who works in you.

[\[00:41:54\]](#transcript-00-41-54-570) Yes.

[\[00:41:54\]](#transcript-00-41-54-571) And then we're trusting Christ for eternal life, which means glorification.

[\[00:41:57\]](#transcript-00-41-57-572) We're going to be resurrected from the grave and conformed ultimately into Christ's image to live with him forever in a new heavens and a new earth.

[\[00:42:06\]](#transcript-00-42-06-573) And all of this by virtue of the covenant of grace, meaning it's not based on the covenant of works, the law, you keeping the law, you doing stuff, it's grace, it's unmerited favor, and it's mercy.

[\[00:42:18\]](#transcript-00-42-18-574) You don't get what you deserve.

[\[00:42:20\]](#transcript-00-42-20-575) You get better.

[\[00:42:21\]](#transcript-00-42-21-576) That's faith.

[\[00:42:23\]](#transcript-00-42-23-577) That's saving faith.

[\[00:42:24\]](#transcript-00-42-24-578) I think a lot of this is birthed out of your perspective of the Bible.

[\[00:42:27\]](#transcript-00-42-27-579) So, Justin and I both espouse a covenantal perspective of God's Word.

[\[00:42:33\]](#transcript-00-42-33-580) And just if that's new to you, in the links, we have a whole entire free introductory class, five episodes on covenant theology.

[\[00:42:41\]](#transcript-00-42-41-581) But the reason I'm mentioning this is this: part of covenant theology is to look at the Bible from a redemptive historic understanding of scripture, meaning the entire Bible is designed to bring about strong faith to the sinner who's

[\[00:42:56\]](#transcript-00-42-56-582) trusting in God's plans.

[\[00:42:58\]](#transcript-00-42-58-583) Strong to save them.

[\[00:42:59\]](#transcript-00-42-59-584) That's right.

[\[00:43:00\]](#transcript-00-43-00-585) So throughout, from the moment that this, I love Genesis 3.

[\[00:43:06\]](#transcript-00-43-06-586) From the moment that Adam and Eve fall, God approaches them.

[\[00:43:09\]](#transcript-00-43-09-587) What's the first thing He does?

[\[00:43:10\]](#transcript-00-43-10-588) He gives them mercy, right?

[\[00:43:11\]](#transcript-00-43-11-589) Covers their shame.

[\[00:43:12\]](#transcript-00-43-12-590) Well, he promises a redeemer and then covers their shame, right?

[\[00:43:15\]](#transcript-00-43-15-591) Well, on he clothes them, right?

[\[00:43:17\]](#transcript-00-43-17-592) And covers their shame and then promises them a redeemer.

[\[00:43:21\]](#transcript-00-43-21-593) And what's interesting, Justin, is that we don't pay attention to this stuff, but he puts no requirement on them.

[\[00:43:28\]](#transcript-00-43-28-594) No.

[\[00:43:28\]](#transcript-00-43-28-595) None.

[\[00:43:29\]](#transcript-00-43-29-596) The requirement was in the garden.

[\[00:43:31\]](#transcript-00-43-31-597) They failed.

[\[00:43:31\]](#transcript-00-43-31-598) They should have died.

[\[00:43:32\]](#transcript-00-43-32-599) They should have been underneath God's wrath and forever abolished out of his presence.

[\[00:43:36\]](#transcript-00-43-36-600) But he doesn't.

[\[00:43:37\]](#transcript-00-43-37-601) He gives them mercy.

[\[00:43:38\]](#transcript-00-43-38-602) And then

[\[00:43:40\]](#transcript-00-43-40-603) from that point forward, they will never work their way back to eternal life.

[\[00:43:43\]](#transcript-00-43-43-604) No.

[\[00:43:44\]](#transcript-00-43-44-605) Jesus does it for them.

[\[00:43:46\]](#transcript-00-43-46-606) He has to.

[\[00:43:47\]](#transcript-00-43-47-607) That's the promise of grace.

[\[00:43:49\]](#transcript-00-43-49-608) So the whole Bible is designed as you read it to say, I can trust God more.

[\[00:43:54\]](#transcript-00-43-54-609) I can trust him.

[\[00:43:55\]](#transcript-00-43-55-610) I can trust him.

[\[00:43:55\]](#transcript-00-43-55-611) I can trust him.

[\[00:43:56\]](#transcript-00-43-56-612) I should never trust myself.

[\[00:43:58\]](#transcript-00-43-58-613) I should never trust my good works.

[\[00:43:59\]](#transcript-00-43-59-614) The law is designed to just scream at me.

[\[00:44:02\]](#transcript-00-44-02-615) Don't trust yourself.

[\[00:44:03\]](#transcript-00-44-03-616) You're holy, you're, you're, you are not holy, you are a wretch.

[\[00:44:06\]](#transcript-00-44-06-617) And what, unfortunately, that's not how the word of God is presented.

[\[00:44:10\]](#transcript-00-44-10-618) It's presented of be like, look how you have, you can be more like this, and you end up creating a place where it's just moral failure after moral failure because you're trained to be like somebody that the Bible

[\[00:44:24\]](#transcript-00-44-24-619) never told you to be like.

[\[00:44:26\]](#transcript-00-44-26-620) Yeah.

[\[00:44:26\]](#transcript-00-44-26-621) So, do we want to respond to the objection really quickly of James 2?

[\[00:44:31\]](#transcript-00-44-31-622) Yes, I think we need to at least touch on it briefly.

[\[00:44:35\]](#transcript-00-44-35-623) We will.

[\[00:44:35\]](#transcript-00-44-35-624) And then, in the Simple Reference podcast, which we'll explain what that is in a minute, I've got some stuff we'll talk about as well.

[\[00:44:41\]](#transcript-00-44-41-625) So let's get into James.

[\[00:44:42\]](#transcript-00-44-42-626) Not wasting any time.

[\[00:44:43\]](#transcript-00-44-43-627) Yeah, all right.

[\[00:44:44\]](#transcript-00-44-44-628) I'm going right at it.

[\[00:44:44\]](#transcript-00-44-44-629) James 2:19.

[\[00:44:45\]](#transcript-00-44-45-630) James says, You believe that God is one, you do well.

[\[00:44:49\]](#transcript-00-44-49-631) Even the demons believe and shudder.

[\[00:44:52\]](#transcript-00-44-52-632) And so, what this is often used to do is to tell people that say, Well, I believe in Jesus.

[\[00:44:59\]](#transcript-00-44-59-633) It's like, well, even the demons do that.

[\[00:45:01\]](#transcript-00-45-01-634) You better have more than belief, you know, if you're going to really stand before the Lord.

[\[00:45:06\]](#transcript-00-45-06-635) And I mean, we could parse out some of the particulars here.

[\[00:45:08\]](#transcript-00-45-08-636) And this is not the point.

[\[00:45:10\]](#transcript-00-45-10-637) But you believe that God is one.

[\[00:45:12\]](#transcript-00-45-12-638) Okay.

[\[00:45:12\]](#transcript-00-45-12-639) So, like, you understand somewhat Trinitarian theology, whatever, and you do well.

[\[00:45:17\]](#transcript-00-45-17-640) The demons understand that.

[\[00:45:18\]](#transcript-00-45-18-641) But let's just even say that in the mind of James, as he writes this, it's like, well, you the gospel, like you believe the gospel, even the demons believe and shudder.

[\[00:45:28\]](#transcript-00-45-28-642) It's like, well, here's the thing.

[\[00:45:31\]](#transcript-00-45-31-643) The demons understand facts.

[\[00:45:34\]](#transcript-00-45-34-644) I don't think that demons and Satan fully understand the redemptive plan of God through history before it unfolded because they're not omniscient, right?

[\[00:45:42\]](#transcript-00-45-42-645) I mean, Satan didn't understand exactly what Jesus came to do.

[\[00:45:45\]](#transcript-00-45-45-646) It's clear.

[\[00:45:46\]](#transcript-00-45-46-647) He knew a lot, but he didn't know everything.

[\[00:45:48\]](#transcript-00-45-48-648) All this to say: here's my pointed answer.

[\[00:45:52\]](#transcript-00-45-52-649) Well, even the demons believe.

[\[00:45:53\]](#transcript-00-45-53-650) It's like, all right, pump the brakes for a second.

[\[00:45:56\]](#transcript-00-45-56-651) We just defined what faith is, it is believing in Jesus, but it is accepting and receiving and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life on the basis of grace and not merit.

[\[00:46:10\]](#transcript-00-46-10-652) All right.

[\[00:46:11\]](#transcript-00-46-11-653) The demons do not, have not, will never do that.

[\[00:46:16\]](#transcript-00-46-16-654) Full stop.

[\[00:46:17\]](#transcript-00-46-17-655) Like it end of conversation.

[\[00:46:19\]](#transcript-00-46-19-656) Like, no demon is trusting Christ, is resting in Christ, is casting himself upon Christ.

[\[00:46:26\]](#transcript-00-46-26-657) That's what faith is.

[\[00:46:27\]](#transcript-00-46-27-658) It's not cognitive assent to a fact.

[\[00:46:30\]](#transcript-00-46-30-659) Obviously, that's included.

[\[00:46:32\]](#transcript-00-46-32-660) But it's the issue, again, John, of who are you trusting?

[\[00:46:35\]](#transcript-00-46-35-661) No demon has ever trusted Christ.

[\[00:46:37\]](#transcript-00-46-37-662) That's right.

[\[00:46:37\]](#transcript-00-46-37-663) He hates him.

[\[00:46:38\]](#transcript-00-46-38-664) I mean, so what in the world are we talking about when we bring this text up?

[\[00:46:42\]](#transcript-00-46-42-665) It's like, well, you believe, but even the demons do that.

[\[00:46:45\]](#transcript-00-46-45-666) The demons have never trusted Jesus for one second.

[\[00:46:48\]](#transcript-00-46-48-667) And it's like, if the saint sits there and trusts Christ for salvation, for goodness sakes, we're not talking about what the demons do.

[\[00:46:58\]](#transcript-00-46-58-668) So, like, stop.

[\[00:46:59\]](#transcript-00-46-59-669) Anyway, well, in a few weeks, I'm starting, I'm going to preach through the book of James.

[\[00:47:03\]](#transcript-00-47-03-670) So, if those of you want a further explanation of that, we will provide that.

[\[00:47:07\]](#transcript-00-47-07-671) And in that context, if you back all the way up to the beginning of chapter two, James is dealing with an issue where they are treating each other worse than the world treats each other.

[\[00:47:17\]](#transcript-00-47-17-672) They are treating each other terribly.

[\[00:47:20\]](#transcript-00-47-20-673) And he's saying, you cannot claim to know Christ and think this is normal or think this is how it's supposed to be, and we'll get into it.

[\[00:47:30\]](#transcript-00-47-30-674) I mean, John does the same thing.

[\[00:47:32\]](#transcript-00-47-32-675) It was an issue of to use that verse to undermine the faith of a person who's sincerely meaning to trust Christ is absurd.

[\[00:47:40\]](#transcript-00-47-40-676) It's absurd.

[\[00:47:41\]](#transcript-00-47-41-677) I think there are times when someone's faith should be put on the chopping block when they say, No, I can believe in Jesus and then completely go against scripture and I'm okay with it.

[\[00:47:53\]](#transcript-00-47-53-678) And they're not ignorant.

[\[00:47:54\]](#transcript-00-47-54-679) It's different to be ignorant and then you confront them and like, oh, I didn't know that was wrong.

[\[00:47:58\]](#transcript-00-47-58-680) I will repent now.

[\[00:48:00\]](#transcript-00-48-00-681) It's a whole nother thing to say, I don't need to love my neighbor, and I can still be a Christian.

[\[00:48:05\]](#transcript-00-48-05-682) James is saying, No, or God says this is sin, but I don't think it's sin.

[\[00:48:10\]](#transcript-00-48-10-683) But this is getting into that realm of like we've talked about before.

[\[00:48:13\]](#transcript-00-48-13-684) Why does church discipline exist?

[\[00:48:15\]](#transcript-00-48-15-685) It exists for cases of hard-hearted, unrepentant, stubborn sin.

[\[00:48:19\]](#transcript-00-48-19-686) And so that's not what we're talking about at all.

[\[00:48:21\]](#transcript-00-48-21-687) But for the average person sitting in the pew who's struggling against the flesh and is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and doesn't feel all the time the way he wants to, doesn't do all the time the things

[\[00:48:31\]](#transcript-00-48-31-688) she wants to, we ought not pummel them with, well, the dean leave.

[\[00:48:36\]](#transcript-00-48-36-689) That's right.

[\[00:48:37\]](#transcript-00-48-37-690) Well, we have more to say, Justin.

[\[00:48:38\]](#transcript-00-48-38-691) Here's what I want to talk about, and then I'll let you tell us about Sempera Fermanda since you are the host of the day, and you'll probably correct me.

[\[00:48:47\]](#transcript-00-48-47-692) It's my job.

[\[00:48:49\]](#transcript-00-48-49-693) I think we should talk about

[\[00:48:54\]](#transcript-00-48-54-694) the way in which God has designed those of us with weak faith to find strength for our faith.

[\[00:49:00\]](#transcript-00-49-00-695) I don't believe it's the intentions of God in His Word to leave people in the weakness of their faith or doubting.

[\[00:49:08\]](#transcript-00-49-08-696) So there are means by which God has given us, and we're going to talk about that from the Bible and from the confession.

[\[00:49:13\]](#transcript-00-49-13-697) And Justin, where and why are we going to talk about this?

[\[00:49:17\]](#transcript-00-49-17-698) We're going to talk about this in the Semper Reformanda podcast.

[\[00:49:21\]](#transcript-00-49-21-699) So, Semper Reformanda, always reforming, is another kind of joint ministry of Theocast.

[\[00:49:27\]](#transcript-00-49-27-700) It's another podcast we do each week.

[\[00:49:29\]](#transcript-00-49-29-701) There's an app for the Semper Reformanda members.

[\[00:49:32\]](#transcript-00-49-32-702) There's all kinds of good stuff that goes on with Semper Refer Manda or Podcast feed.

[\[00:49:36\]](#transcript-00-49-36-703) Yep.

[\[00:49:36\]](#transcript-00-49-36-704) Right.

[\[00:49:37\]](#transcript-00-49-37-705) even as it's affectionately known, SR.

[\[00:49:39\]](#transcript-00-49-39-706) And so if you're wondering, if you're newer to Theocast and you're wondering what Semper Reframed is, what membership looks like with respect to that, and how you might partner with Theocast to see this message of Christ spread as

[\[00:49:51\]](#transcript-00-49-51-707) far and wide as possible, you can go over to our website, theocast.org.

[\[00:49:56\]](#transcript-00-49-56-708) There's all kinds of information over there.

[\[00:49:58\]](#transcript-00-49-58-709) There's content over there, but some of the content over there is about Semper Reformanda, and you can figure out what that looks like, how to partner with us, and all the good things that SR being an SR member

[\[00:50:07\]](#transcript-00-50-07-710) would bring you.

[\[00:50:07\]](#transcript-00-50-07-711) And one of those things that you would get access to is this podcast that we are about to record.

[\[00:50:12\]](#transcript-00-50-12-712) And we're going to continue this conversation over there.

[\[00:50:14\]](#transcript-00-50-14-713) So, for many of you, we'll chat with you again in just a moment.

[\[00:50:17\]](#transcript-00-50-17-714) We trust as you flip over to that private feed.

[\[00:50:20\]](#transcript-00-50-20-715) And for those of you who may not be joining us on the SR podcast this week, we will talk with you again in this format next week.

[\[00:50:27\]](#transcript-00-50-27-716) We trust.

[\[00:50:27\]](#transcript-00-50-27-717) Grace and peace to you.

[\[00:50:28\]](#transcript-00-50-28-718) See you again.

---

### Two Kingdoms (with David VanDrunen)

*Published: September 8, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/two-kingdoms-with-david-vandrunen*
*Tags: David VanDrunen, Theonomy, Two Kingdoms*

On today's episode, we have a special guest, David VanDrunen. We talk about the doctrine of Two Kingdoms and its implications. In short, we talk about Christianity and culture. What are Christians to be doing? What is the mission of the church? Are we to be ushering in the kingdom of God? We answer these questions and more.  
  
Semper Reformanda: The guys talk with David VanDrunen about common objections to Two Kingdoms doctrine. We cover objections from advocates of Neo Calvinism and theonomy. Does Two Kingdoms doctrine promote apathy toward cultural involvement?  
  
[Giveaway: Living in God's Two Kingdoms by David VanDrunen](https://amzn.to/3ndhLyg)  
  
https://youtu.be/FhbX-Pvm7tE  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Coming soon...

---

### Pop Church Circus

*Published: September 1, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/pop-church-circus*
*Tags: Church, Seeker church*

There are so many unrealistic expectations heaped upon pastors and congregants in the popular church. And there hasn't been much sound thinking on what really matters. Maybe you've experienced this? Maybe you're exhausted? Confused? In this episode, the guys seek to make the main things of church life clear--in order to set us free for life in the body of Christ.  
  
Semper Reformanda: The guys talk about anything and everything as it pertains to church: the primacy of Sunday morning and the preaching of Christ, pastoral care, music, church programs...you name it, it might be in there.  
  
Giveaway: [Faith vs Faithfulness](/products/rest-a-consideration-of-faith-vs-faithfulness-ebook)  
  
https://youtu.be/CWVOjH0wCHk  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we have a discussion around the insanity of the modern church as it relates to the pastor and congregants, and how often church feels more like an exhausting circus moving from one big program to the next. And then we're going to spend some time talking about what biblical Christianity is. What is the responsibility of a church pastor and a church congregant? We hope you find this conversation edifying. We definitely pray that you find rest.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Today, what we are going to talk about is pop church circus. I think the person that we are aiming to speak to today, maybe you are that church member or that church attender where you feel like you show up to church on Sundays and you're looking around and you're seeing all of these things happen around you—different people volunteering, etc. Everybody seems to be very busy, very involved, and very much part of the movement, but you actually have no idea what's going on or you have no idea what all of this is. It can be really disorienting, particularly here in the United States.  
  
The reason why we titled this _Pop Church Circus_ is if you've ever been to a circus, you walk in and 1,001 different things are fighting for your attention, whether it's the skee-ball machine, or the bearded lady, or the conjoined twins, or whatever it might be. There are a thousand things that you can look at and give your attention to, and it's almost too much, it's almost too overwhelming.  
  
I'll just speak from personal experience. In the different churches that I've been involved in, it always seemed like there was a new initiative or a new movement and corresponding matching t-shirts to go along with it. What we're seeing, particularly in our generation—the post boomer, I think that would be Gen Z millennial—is you see a lot of deconversion stories or ex-evangelicals, is a lot of times what they call themselves, where essentially they're running away from this kind of circus. What we want to do today is just talk about and hopefully bring hope and rest to that kind of person. What do we do in that kind of situation?  
  
But maybe before we get there, would one of you want to step in and flesh this idea out a little bit more?  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm happy to jump in for a second here and put it maybe in my own words. I think there are all kinds of expectations heaped upon people in the church, and that would include pastors and congregants. And then there are a lot of unhelpful notions in the popular church of what pastoral ministry looks like. And there are also a lot of unhelpful notions about what being a church attender or a church member looks like in the popular church. Because it's this fire hose coming at them. I love the analogy of all these different things going on. There's a t-shirt for every program and there's a t-shirt for every new thing that we're doing and every initiative. It all can just be exhausting.  
  
We talk about the rest that is ours in Christ all the time on this podcast. I think one of the goals of today's conversation is to liberate people who are exhausted by the popular church. Whether you're a pastor, whether you're paid to do vocational ministry, whether you're a lay elder perhaps and you're helping pastor a church in that regard, or whether you're a member of a church or an attender of a church somewhere, our hope for the today is that you walk away from this podcast with some simple handles and takeaways. The Christian life is unfathomably deep, but at the same time, it's actually quite simple—and so I can give myself to these few things and I'm going to be absolutely inside the will of God. I'm probably going to be a little bit more rested. I'm probably going to be more effective in the things that I'm doing. That's sort of where I'm coming from in having this conversation.  
  
Jon, do you have thoughts that you want to add to that before we maybe get into the content itself?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Sometimes, what's helpful when you are wrestling and you're thinking, "That doesn't seem right. That seems wrong. That seems off," then you can sit down with someone and you just touch it to see what happens and then they completely regurgitate back to you. It helps you just calm down and go, "Okay. I'm not crazy. I'm not the only one who thinks that is a circus and I don't want anything to do with it." That is definitely the conversation we want to have with you.  
  
If you're looking at modern churches and what seems to be popular, if you drop a pin in any church in any city and look at what the mega churches are doing—what's popular, what's moving—and even most church plants, it does feel like a circus. It feels as if the culture drives whatever works and that's the pressure we all fall under. The way I describe it is that it feels superficial. It feels as if no one can have problems. Whatever is the most important thing going on in the culture is the most important thing going on in the church.  
  
Justin Perdue: And you feel like there's no way that any ordinary church can pull this off because it's this incredible machine that's been built and it requires millions of dollars a year. How in the world could we, just as ordinary Christians and ordinary pastors, ever do this thing?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I would just pipe in here and say this is a plague, I would say, in our modern culture in the church scene. Jon, you said the haunting words, which is whatever works. Our measurements and metrics and definitions of what successful churches have become so far away from what I think Scripture teaches and frankly—we're coming from a Reformed perspective—what a lot of the Reformed confessions teach.  
  
That's what we want to get into a little bit. Everything just seems like the rat race where, I don't know about you guys, but our life is tremendously busy. We have little kids. I know some people are listening and they have kids that are perhaps in sports or in different activities. We're just getting into that. I just know how easy it can become when you're part of a church. And it seems like any day that ends in why, you are either at the church building or you're doing some sort of church related activity.  
  
Justin Perdue: I just had a conversation yesterday with a guy who just started attending our church, and he was just asking me about life and the rhythms of our congregation. And I let him know that we unashamedly prioritize Sunday and time together in terms of just kickin it, getting to know each other, and being in one another's lives. But we intentionally don't fill up everybody's calendar with church activities because we don't think that that's the best way to try to arrange our lives together. That may be a different podcast for a different day, but I think that observation is good.  
  
Didn't mean to interrupt you.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: No, that's okay. I was saying that I think it's very easy to become so busy and so oriented around activity in church. To use the cliche phrase, the actual being the body of Christ to one another just actually never happens.  
  
Justin Perdue: We've programmatized it to death. I think in having this conversation, we might take two different groups of people one at a time for the next bit and see where this goes. We'll speak first to pastors, to people who are in leadership in the church and have been set aside to do that work. And then we'll talk more specifically to congregants, which would be the vast majority of people, we trust, listening to the podcast.  
  
When it comes to being a pastor, the three guys sitting here behind these microphones are in vocational ministry. We all have planted churches. In particular, in the church planting sphere, some of this circus of the popular church is more obvious and more in your face. All the pressures and the expectations that are placed upon guys who are going to plant churches and be pastors can be off the charts overwhelming. Guys can feel like, "Oh my gosh. I'm going to be a pastor. What in the world do I give my time to? There's a million things I could do." Which is true. Especially if you're in a situation like you, Jimmy, where it's not your full-time job, you've got very limited bandwidth. What do you need to give your time to?  
  
We're going to talk about just the very few things that we would see in the Scriptures and that the Reformed confessions would also bear witness to. I'm just going to go ahead and lay them out and we can talk about them one at a time.  
  
You are fulfilling your job description as a pastor if you give attention to the following things (and it's not a long list): (1) preach the Word of Christ and administer the sacraments; (2) oversee the church, and by that we mean not run it like an organization but oversee it doctrinally and guide it in that sense; (3) love your people, which would include meeting with them and shepherding them.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As Jesus says, "Tend my sheep."  
  
Justin Perdue: Tend the flock. And then (4) invest in other people who can also be pastors, because the best way to pastor the church is to see the pastoral ministry multiply in that regard.  
  
So it's pretty simple. Preach the word and administer the sacraments, oversee the church, love your people, tend to the flock, invest in other people who can lead. If you're doing that, you're gonna be doing well. There's a million other things you could give your time and attention to, and if you got the bandwidth for it, knock yourself out. But if you're thinking you don't have that kind of capacity, pay attention to these few things, and you will be doing a faithful job as a pastor of the church where you are.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I went to a preaching magazine conference here in Nashville. I walked through the exhibit hall and was engaging and trying to hold my nose for most of the time. What I saw were I could get a doctorate and degrees in leadership and I could get it in a church organizational structure. What I didn't see were help for pastors on how to shepherd, how to counsel, how to care, how to deal with loss, how to deal with suffering. It was really geared towards taking your ministry to the "next level" and reach that moment of pinnacle of 500 or a thousand people. These are what the successful pastors are doing. This is how they're preaching. They're doing leadership training. They're focusing on basically how to communicate in a style where it's more effective—communicating your mission and your objectives. It was exhausting. I lasted one day but I was supposed to be for three.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm tired listening to it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I didn't go back. To which then the two series of sermons I did hear about were about racial reconciliation, and how I was a white pastor and it is my fault that racism is in the United States. It wasn't what I came for.  
  
I was at a coffee shop yesterday with one of the guys I planted a church with, Patrick Crandall. I literally looked around the room and there were four other pastors meeting with staff or church members in there. I was obviously the most underdressed out of all of them. I apparently didn't shop wherever they shop, and I definitely didn't have my hair cut wherever they got their cut. I just chuckled on it. I didn't really care. I know most of these guys' churches and I've been to their websites. I have been in conversations with them. I look at the pressures that they live underneath to try and keep up with what's happening.  
  
I was talking with a Presbyterian pastor that's a very good friend of mine in Colombia, and he described modern Christianity in this way: most Christians jump from one church to the next because there is no connection. This one now offers this, or this offers this, or this sermon series here. I love the word circus because a circus kind of shows up, it blows in, it blows up, it blows out to the next city, and it does its song and dance. You either increase the song and dance, you either make the attractiveness better, or you're going to lose your congregants to the next big thing. I have congregants rolling into my church saying, "I am exhausted by the circus of Christianity." I know for a fact there are pastors who are exhausted by the system. They get chewed up, spit out, and they leave ministry because they can't keep up with guys that are exploding churches of up to 5,000\. it's just a machine that just chews people up.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There is something that very much happens in the church in the States, which is the pastor becomes either the CEO or the spiritual guru that has wisdom on almost every area of life. Whether it's parenting, marriage, finances, work, or whatever it may be, your pastor has all of the answers on how to do these things and do them well, and to create results, and to create metrics, and so on and so forth.  
  
My wife and I have been married for 11 years, so we're not rookies per se. But at the same time, there is a profound sense of a lot of areas that I just don't know. I would not go write a book on marriage right now because there's just so many areas that we don't have figured out.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Actually you could, Jimmy: everything you shouldn't do.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If you want the book of mistakes, I can tell you that, but I don't have any solutions. The same thing with parenting. I still go to older members of our church that have raised teenagers that are still walking with the Lord. And I ask them, "How do you do this? Because my kids are driving me nuts right now."  
  
Justin Perdue: A joke about parenting is to talk to the couple that has a one-year-old and it's their only child.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: They tell you everything you need to know. Exactly. But this is often the expectation that is laden on pastors. Sometimes, that can go one of two ways: one, the pastor gets an enormously huge head because they all of a sudden believe that they are the expert on everything. And then they become the celebrity. Or two, what Jon has mentioned: they end up burning out because they become the answer guy. If you need to know anything about life, they will know it. What is it that a pastor is supposed to do? This is what we see in the Book of Acts, that the elderly shepherds give themselves to prayer and ministry of the Word. And frankly, I would say there is probably a really good chance, a high percentage—I would say in the 90s—that your pastor does not have time for those things because of all of the other expectations that have been thrust upon him concerning being the spiritual guru or the life coach that many people want him to be  
  
Jon Moffitt: To add to the weight of what Jimmy is saying, I read this list in an installation service I did on Sunday. I just want to read it to you here. "Here's the various hats that people expect pastors to wear: preacher, counselor, leader, financial planner, designer, project manager, entrepreneur, videographer, supervisor, volunteer, coordinator, theologian, receptionist, greeter, webmaster, community, community activist, rider recruiter, life coach, shipping department, coordinator (done that), strategist, social media, dreamer, student, disciplinarian, teacher, social activist, event specialist, chaplain CEO, COO, CMO, CFO, operations manager, janitor, salesmen, and communication specialist." That's just to name a few.  
  
Justin Perdue: The thing that's interesting is a lot of that stuff that you just read, Jon, the vast majority of it, and Jimmy, using your language of the pastor being a CEO and a guru—none of that's in the Scripture at all. I would go so far as to say, if I was really going to talk about the most important thing that pastors do, we would all probably liberate ourselves a little bit if we were content for every aspect of our ministry to fail-safe the preaching of Christ. But then, I think there are other things that we need to be doing.  
  
As I'm thinking about my own job, giving people Christ in the service every Sunday is paramount in the Word, in the table, and in baptism. That's critical. Beyond that, the other thing that happens twice a month at our church is our pastors meet together to pray for our people and to discuss matters of oversight of the church. Those are the most essential things that I do, and therefore they should receive a lot of my attention and energy as a pastor. Other things that occur are important, like the meetings with people. Jon and I were just talking about meeting with congregants because he and I are both full-time pastors. I had three meetings with individuals yesterday and I've got one today. I think Jon's the same. So you give yourself to that where you meet with your people when you talk with them about their lives—and you often just listen to them talk and offer what you can. But you're not a guru. You can't answer every question. You're mainly just listening and pointing them to Christ and encouraging them in him.  
  
I think the task is weighty and thrilling, but the main things that we need to do are actually few. It's a relatively simple job description in that regard. It's beyond our capacity and we need the sufficiency of the Lord. Amen to that. But we don't do ourselves a service when we overcomplicate this and we make the list a million items long.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I was talking with a dear saint who is a pastor in Texas. He was describing to me some of the pressures he's been feeling as a church planner, like all the things that are expected of him. One of the words he used was "entrepreneur". "If you don't have an entrepreneurial spirit, then you know, you're not going to be a successful church planner." I just told him that is nowhere in the requirements of a pastor or church planter.  
  
I love that the illustration used is that of a shepherd. Jesus literally says to Peter—who, by the way, is not a very successful human being at the moment—he is hearing these things, he has denied Jesus, he's hiding in a room. He's just not your primo example of the leader that you want leading the flock of God. And what does Jesus do? He loves him, he gives him mercy, grace, and forgiveness. And then he says to him, "Feed my sheep."  
  
Shepherds are designed to do two things: feed and care for, and protect the congregation. When a pastor starts to feel the weight needed to be a public speaker, he needs to be this, he needs to be that, his attention throughout the week is drawn away from the very moment that he should be present, which is administrating the Word and then caring for those receiving the Word. When I think about what pastors spend their time doing, I can't help but wonder how it is related to the one thing they've been called to do. They become administrators. They become a communications specialist. You said influencers. We're not influencers. Pastors don't have to have a public persona to do their job effectively. They don't need to have a massive podcast or YouTube channel or whatever else is out there.  
  
Not only that, just because the pastor is popular and has a big following doesn't mean what he says is more influential. I'm going to just be a little cranky right now and say that I get exhausted being compared to what other famous pastors have said. I don't care what they say because they're not in my context, they're not in my city, and they're not in my church. Therefore what they say has no authority. Period.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: The celebrity pastor notion is just absurd. I've said this to people and they look at me like I'm nuts: when they listen to their favorite celebrity preacher and I tell them he has no authority in their lives because he's not your pastor. He might say some good things that are helpful, but he bears no authority to call you out on things because he's not your pastor.  
  
The other thing that I was going to say is there is often a weight to place on pastors that they were never meant to bear—and those are the things that you listed off. I'll never forget what one of my mentors said to me one time, and it kind of haunts me to this day even as I think about the various things that our church does, where he said your church can be very busy and productive and yet the hand of God can still be against you. I remember that hitting me in the chest, like a sledgehammer because at that point, I was leading a ministry that was "successful". But we were very busy and we were doing things, but I think our metrics and measures of success were just so far out of whack.  
  
I realize that not everybody listening to this is a pastor, but I think also as congregants as well, some of the things that can happen is congregants, as we've mentioned before, can be part of a church. Let's just describe the typical standard fare of what a typical congregant might experience in church today. The expectation is this: you attend church on Sunday morning where perhaps you volunteer in some way, whether that's teaching Sunday school, volunteering in the nursery, maybe you're an usher, or maybe you're a deacon, or maybe you're a cleanup or set up crew—whatever it might be. And then Monday night, you have some sort of church meeting where you have to discuss some matter of the church. Tuesday night, you have your community group, or your home fellowship group, or your small group, Wednesday night, you have the kids or youth program that you volunteer in and that you have to show up. Thursday night, you have to do your own family things. Friday night, you have a worship night that you have to attend and be part of. And then Saturday morning, there's a serve day. And then eventually, before you realize it, you're actually not really living in the community in which you live; you just keep driving 20 minutes to the church building and doing church-related activities. You have no time to interact with your spouse. You have no time to interact with your own kids. And then eventually you realize, "I am so exhausted. My marriage is on the rocks. My kids don't want to go to church anymore because all we're doing is church-related functions and activities."  
  
Is this realistic? Is this sustainable? What do we do?  
  
Justin Perdue: Short answer: no. We do realize that the vast majority of people listening to this are probably not in pastoral ministry. The comments about pastors that we hope are helpful to the congregant in thinking about what you should look for in a person who's going to be your pastor. Hang onto those things and set realistic expectations in your own mind and heart for your pastors, for your shepherds.  
  
Jimmy, you lay it out well. I think a lot of people are flat out exhausted by the demands that the church puts on them and the rigor of church life and all the events and things. There are, I trust, good debates that can be had about what's valuable and what isn't. Let me just start with this: the only thing that's essential in the life of any congregation is the Sunday morning gathering. Anything outside of the Sunday morning gathering is a wisdom call. I think we would do everybody a service if we could just talk like that out of the gate because a lot of times, I think people think that there is an absolute, if not biblical requirement, close to it to have all of these various other things going on in the church calendar and in the life of the congregation.  
  
I'm going to go ahead and lay out a few things that I think are the most simple and basic things that congregants should concern themselves with. This list is even shorter than the list that we had for pastors.  
  
If you are a person who attends a church, you're a Christian, and you want to be involved in a church somewhere, three things: one, join a church. Become a member of a church—and we'll talk about that in a minute. It sounds crazy to some, but join. Two, show up. Your primary ministry in your local church is to show up to service on Sunday. Three, love the brethren, love the saints. That's it. Join, show up, love each other.  
  
Volunteering could be a subset of loving one another—and we realize that there's a lot of implications biblically, but let that be your motivator. Let that be your guide.  
  
I don't know which one we want to take on first. I have a number of thoughts about each of these. Church membership? Do we want to start there?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think so. I have some words on that. I know that church members are kind of all over the board, probably, for our listeners. For some people, it doesn't mean anything. And then I would say on the opposite extreme, I think for some people, dare I say it almost means too much where...  
  
Justin Perdue: Like it's a primary doctrine.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. And I would say there are areas that maybe the church has authority in somebody's life that they don't need to have authority. But that's a whole different podcast.  
  
But I would say for most people, 9 out of 10, the average listener church, what church membership might mean in your church you get to vote on important matters and then maybe someday you can become a leader of some ministry, or you can become an elder or whatever it might be.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or you can play in the band.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right. You can play in the band.  
  
I think membership can be underthought and it can be overthought—at least my own ideas are. I do think church membership is biblical. There's always been an in and out of God's people. What I communicated to our people when we were starting this church is church membership or becoming a member at a church communicates to that body, to that pastor, "I am here and I am one of you. I belong here and I am committed to this place." Second, I think it gives you the best avenues to love and encourage the saints to "carry out" the imperatives of one another that we find in the New Testament. I think those are the important things.  
  
Justin Perdue: Church membership is about defining who we are. What we are doing is we are submitting to the same doctrine, to the same pastors, and we know who we are so that we can love one another and watch over each other.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. And we submit ourselves to the discipline of the church from both a positive and a negative sense because discipline isn't always negative.  
  
Justin Perdue: The most frequent kind of discipline is formative.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right. And part of that discipline is just weekly sitting under the preaching of the Word in the care of the elders.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think what's hard when you've never been in a local church that actually administrates God's word the way it was designed from its inception, and you're a part of this "circus", you don't have affections towards circuses. You go, you enjoy, you leave. You don't get a membership to it.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It's where I spend a lot of money and I'm really tired and my kids become cranky.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. But they're entertained. We did something as a family, and to be fair, not all churches are that way. I was listening to Jady Koch on his podcast Stand Firm, and he made a statement that the American evangelical church has failed because it has not catechized its congregants correctly. So we don't understand theological concepts like ecclesiology, the purpose of the church, the purpose of preaching, the purpose of the local body. We don't understand those things. I had a conversation with a guy about this in Texas: church membership could be a sales lead in. "Oh, you go to the same mega church I do. Oh, great!" And now they have a connection.  
  
Church membership becomes where I associate my identity. It is not where I see the extension of myself. I want our church members to go, "Oh, this is family." I literally have people who've been in my church now for nine months and they said, "I'm closer in nine months to the people in this congregation than I am my own blood relatives." First of all, it sounds biblical because that's exactly how Jesus described those of us who are connected to him in his body. But church membership becomes that identity where you say, "I am going to be held responsible for the love and care of the other members in this congregation." Because literally, the New Testament says when you function properly, you build yourself up. Consider how to build one another up and love so you're not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Consider how to sing Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to one another, carrying one another's burdens. Being a member in a local congregation isn't where you give money and serve in the nursery. It's where you live life for the sake of spiritual health and protection. It's a whole other way of thinking.  
  
A lot of times people consider themselves a member at a church because that is where they go. Biblically speaking, you know, can you argue that the word "membership" is in the New Testament? It's not in the Scripture. But the concept of family and body, which is much stronger—it's almost like maybe we need to get rid of membership and say, "What body are you a part of? How are you connected?"  
  
Justin Perdue: What church membership is is the commonly agreed upon principle that is very old, that Christians have said, "This is the best way for us to practice with the New Testament outlines in terms of our relationships to each other. It's to be a member here. So that we make up this body of Christ in this location. So that we're able to love each other, do these things for each other, submit to this leadership, and so that church discipline can be practiced. Membership is necessary." That's how the saints have always thought.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: On the opposite spectrum of this, I think one of the things that we see today in churches is where people tend to flock. People tend to go where there's exciting initiative and movement. We're chronically attracted to that. We're chronically attracted to things that are exciting. I might offend a lot of people here and that's fine because I'm not on the podcast as much as you guys are, so you guys can deal with it later.  
  
Justin Perdue: We'll clean up the mess, Jimmy.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Thank you. I appreciate that. I'll put my Twitter on you.  
  
I would say if you are part of a body where your church is always coming up with the next initiative or the next movement, that is a massive red flag for me. Why? Because I would say that what they're communicating is that the Word is not enough to do what it says that it does. And so when people come to our church, we are very open with the fact that we don't offer programs, but we offer a mindset shift. The mindset shift is, over the course of your life, we invite you to sit with us under prayer and ministry of the Word, and we trust that God's Word is going to shape and save and do what it says that it does. We are not looking for the immediate flashy results or the next big thing or movement, but rather we are trusting that God is going to use his ordinary means to do extraordinary things within our lives.  
  
What's our initiative? Our initiative is what Jesus commanded his apostles to do, which is, "Make disciples of all nations by baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them all that I've commanded you to do." Teaching everything that Jesus said? That's going to take a long time. And so we're going to have to do that over the course of life. Last week, my sermon was on Romans 12:9-21, where Paul just basically lists a bunch of common sense things where he says let love be genuine, abhor what is evil, cling to what is good. And what I told our people is something that I read in Michael Horton's book, _Ordinary_. The quote that he says is, "Everybody wants to do big things for Jesus, but nobody wants to do the dishes." Everybody wants to do the building, of wells in Africa, or raising money for sex trafficking—which is fine. Those things are not bad things. But at the end of the day, if we're chronically plagued by the next initiative, eventually we're going to become exhausted and burned out by those things.  
  
Justin Perdue: We only have a few minutes left on the regular portion of the podcast today. I'm going to land the plane with this one.  
  
I can't even count how many times people have come to CBC because it is so different from what they've ever experienced. This is especially true for people who are really zealous and they want to love Christ, serve him, and be useful. I more or less tell people to calm down and just show up to church. And they look at you like you have lost your ever-loving mind. Like there has to be something else that they need to do.  
  
In our church context, if you just faithfully show up to church not once a month, but you're there most Sundays—you just show up feeling good some Sundays and feeling terrible on others, but you just come. Everything else flows out of it. That corporate reality drives everything else in your Christian life, but it also is the way that relationships get deepened. It facilitates all of that stuff. This is how coffees and lunches get planned. But more than anything else, if you just continue to show up on Sunday, you're going to partake of the ordinary means of grace, which is huge. But then also, inevitably, you're going to be asked to do various things in the church because it becomes clear that you're going to be effective in doing it. And over the long haul, you just showing up on Sunday will result in you being all kinds of fruitful and effective, and you will feel as though you didn't even try to make it happen because it just happened, like that's how the Lord does that.  
  
The American church has to wrap its mind around this: preaching only occurs when the church has gathered. You can listen to a podcast, a sermon, from a great preacher who you have learned a lot from, and it be beneficial. At the same time, that is not preaching. It is not a means of grace, in that sense, because the preaching of the word happens when a man stands in the presence of God's people, and God uses that man to preach the Word of Christ, and we corporately sit under that Word. That is a different thing than listening to a sermon in your earbuds. And I think so many people in the states would be helped to just understand that content, that situation, that they need to be present for the preaching of the word and the administration of the Lord's Table, and for prayer and song in the context of the gathered church, because the Lord uses it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The same men or elders who administrate the Word to you should be the same men that tend to you. They should be the same men that confront you when you're trapped in sin. They should be the same men that pray for you when you're discouraged.  
  
Church is not the sermon on Sunday. I have more to say about that in the SR. I guess I'm the one that brings it over.  
  
Justin Perdue: By all means, take us there.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's been a whirlwind of a day already. It's exciting. I do. There are two things I want to talk about: there's more to church than just on Sunday, and there are, what I would say, phases of leaving pietism. I want to talk to our SR members about this. There is being exhausted by Christianity and wanting to leave that; you find rest in confessional theology, the sufficiency of Jesus, and you're there for a while; and then you move over into the last stage, which is where you get to then lead other people to rest in Christ. What does that look like in a local church? Because that happens not on Sunday, that happens throughout the week. So we're going to talk about the three different phases where you might be, and how to help your pastors in churches in administering God's Word and tending to the sheep.  
  
Where we're going is what's called Semper Reformanda. We started another podcast and it's to continue on the conversations that we're having, but do it on a much deeper, more intimate level. Often, the filters come off. I am definitely holding back. I've got some thoughts that I want to keep for over there. This is family time.  
  
If you want to learn more about it, you can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. We have a private podcast feed. We have an app where we do lots of interaction with people. We're working on starting up local and online groups that you can participate in. If you wanna learn more about that, come join us over there. For those of you that are not joining us for Semper Reformanda, we'll see you next week.  
  
Just to let you guys know, if you're wondering, Jimmy is going to be back with us soon. He's starting school. He's going to get that up and rolling. Then we'll get him back in here as one of our regular contributors.  
  
We'll see him in a few weeks. We'll see you guys later.

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### A Critique of Lordship Salvation (Part 2)

*Published: August 25, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/a-critique-of-lordship-salvation-part-2*
*Tags: Lordship, Lordship Salvation*

In this second of two episodes on Lordship Salvation, Jon and Justin seek to further clarify concerns about LS theology. These concerns include: (1) confusion about the order of salvation; (2) a redefinition of faith; (3) a collapsing of law and gospel; (4) confusion on the uses of the law; and (5) a confusion of the relationship between justification and sanctification.  
  
Semper Reformanda: The guys talk about a sustainable approach to theology and the Christian life. What is it that will last over the long term? We also consider the posture and tone we desire for the ministry of Theocast.  
  
Resources:  
  
**[Lordship Salvation Part One](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/a-critique-of-lordship-salvation/)**  
[Our episode on law/gospel](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction/)  
[Our episode on "When the Faithful Falter"](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/when-the-faithful-falter/)  
[Our episode on Assurance](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/struggling-with-assurance/)  
[Our series on Covenant Theology](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByARBXbQfCo&list=PL5OjtM2rVrI38rdQ8qB2CuI06qvb6sxN3)  
  
Giveaway: ESB Bible from [Post Tenebras Lux Bible Rebinding](https://ptlbiblerebinding.com/)  
  
https://youtu.be/9nidOt4Bc5k  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we are doing a follow-up episode to one that was released a few weeks ago. This is _A Critique of Lordship Salvation_ part two. We got a lot of feedback from our listeners on the first episode that we did about Lordship salvation. What we are going to try to do today is give, if possible, more clear comments on the concerns that we have with lordship salvation theology. We're going to try to give you some clear talking points and handles as to what the concerns are from a Reformed and confessional perspective.  
  
We hope the conversation's encouraging. We hope you enjoy the conversation. And as always, we hope that you are encouraged in the Lord Jesus Christ. Stay tuned.  
  
As the listener will have seen, this is _A Critique of Lordship Salvation_ part two. This is a follow up episode to one that we recorded a few weeks ago. It's been out for a few weeks now, at least I know that's true, where we did a critique of lordship salvation. In that particular episode that we did before, we interacted quite a bit with a book by John MacArthur entitled _The Gospel According to Jesus_ and we talked about that book some, we talked about the content of that book obviously, and ended up interacting quite a bit with John MacArthur's theology. Lordship salvation is a camp that John MacArthur is very much identified with.  
  
What we wanted to do today is follow up on that original episode. We got a lot of feedback from our listeners on the first episode. People were encouraged and helped by that, which we praise God for, and then there were questions that people had. Mainly the questions were around just seeking clarification. "Could you guys say more about this? Could you be perhaps more clear about lordship salvation itself and the concerns that you have with it? Can you give me some handles that I can wrap my hands and my mind around as I'm trying to think about lordship salvation from a Reformed confessional perspective?" What we're going to try to do today is to give you those handles to be really succinct and give you talking points in terms of our concerns about lordship salvation from a Reformed confessional perspective.  
  
I'll go and say this: Jon and I have gone back and listened to our first episode and we stand by everything that we said there. We do lament the fact that it became so much about John MacArthur and about his theology in particular. I think that was less than helpful. And I think perhaps, in an attempt to be gracious to John, because we always want to be gracious and kind towards other people and towards other Christians, I think that we were perhaps not as clear as we could have been. What we want to do today is try to clean that up a little bit and be as clear as we possibly can be.  
  
We're going to get into our talking points here in just a minute, but for those who may be tuning in for the first time and you haven't listened to the first episode, we thought we would take just a few minutes very quickly at the beginning of the show here and talk about lordship salvation and how it arose historically, and sort of our take on the movement itself as a whole before we get into our points for today.  
  
So, Jon, if I were to ask you to simply define lordship salvation, how would you answer that question?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just to backtrack before answering that, I think it's becoming of a Christian to always disagree agreeably, that we always show meekness, patience and gentleness. We did get a lot of emails and comments from people that said, "I need to learn more from you guys on how to disagree agreeably," or with kindness. I would hardly say amen to that, which is what we're going to continue to do as we critique anything—particularly doctrines that I think are confusing categories. I would not call them heretical but definitely confusing categories. We need to be gracious and patient with people that we disagree with.  
  
In my definition, I would stand pretty strongly in that in the majority of books and definitions and sermons that I have heard, lordship salvation would be described as one unable to be saved unless they first repent of all their sin and then make Jesus Lord of their life. The greatest example of this that is used, not only in John MacArthur's book but by a lot of other people who hold to this theology, is the rich young ruler. He was unwilling to repent of his love of money and make Jesus Lord of his life. So he kept his money and he stayed lord of his life—or you could say his finances stayed lord of his life. Therefore that man did not receive eternal life because of those two requirements that he failed to meet. I think that would be the definition that I would present.  
  
Justin Perdue: We interacted with the rich young ruler in the first episode and we may bring the rich young ruler up again today, but we'll be talking about the confusion of law and gospel later on in the show.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. And that being the greatest example, I think the five points we are going to offer are going to be very clear.  
  
Justin Perdue: Just a couple more comments along those lines to set it up before we jump into our points today. Historically, how this arose in the eighties and nineties, there was some theology coming out of Dallas Theological Seminary associated with a man named Zane Hodges most notably. It is sometimes called Free Grace Theology, where it was coming from a more Arminian, semi-Pelagian perspective where the teaching was that man could make this decision, this act of faith, to believe the gospel and to trust in Christ. Based upon that one act of faith that man does, he is then justified, he is good with God forever—"once saved, always saved," in this mechanical sense that was being propagated in the eighties and nineties in the evangelical church.  
  
Some adherence of that kind of Free Grace Theology would even talk in ways that made it seem as though it didn't even matter how one lived after that one act of faith. It matters no more what you do. You're good with God. Once saved, always saved. It doesn't even matter if you keep believing, if you listen to some of these folks talk, because you did one time perform this act of faith, this, this thing that you did that justified you once and for all, and now you're good.  
  
And so John MacArthur and others in the lordship salvation camp, as it came to be known, were responding to that bad theology—that free grace, Zane Hodges, DTS stuff. Our take here at Theocast—and we say this humbly but we want to be clear—we think that lordship salvation is yet another example of an overreaction against bad doctrine. And so in seeking to respond to the bad theology of that Free Grace Movement, our fear is that John MacArthur and others in the lordship salvation stream became off-centered themselves and started to confuse categories. It's not altogether unlike the sanctification debate in the early 2010s that occurred in the Calvinistic evangelical church where—some of the listeners may be aware of this—Protestant people lost their ever loving Protestant minds for a time in saying things about sanctification that were basically Roman Catholic because they were trying to push back against things that they perceive to be antinomian in nature. And we don't ever want to do that as Christians. We don't want to become off-centered ourselves in pushing back against something that's off-centered. We want to maintain a centeredness and balance and all those kinds of words that we would use to describe sound doctrine.  
  
And so our effort today is to do just that: to hold the line in this Reformed confessional way, and speak clearly about lordship salvation and the concerns that we have with it. And again, just so we're very clear, we've got five points to talk through.  
  
Jon Moffitt: All five of these points that we're going to argue from are systematic and, I would say, theological derivatives from confessions—and I would say Reformed theology in general. If you listen to Zane Hodges and those who espouse the Free Grace Movement, and those who espouse lordship salvation, there are category confusions. Both sides, I would say, do not come from a historically Reformed confessional understanding, a covenantal, law-gospel distinction, third use of the law understanding of Scripture, which is why both sides say things that are confusing.  
  
By the way, we also got criticized for inappropriately describing Zane Hodges' theology of free grace. There's a first. One on either side, I guess. But the reason I mentioned this is that we aren't just throwing lobs out there because we just don't like this theology—it does go up against historically sound theology that's been taught. And if you say, "I love Reformed theology. I think it's biblical," this is why we're saying when you compare what's being taught by both ends—free grace and lordship—they both contradict Reformed historical theology.  
  
Justin Perdue: Yeah. Reformed historical orthodoxy. That's what we're talking about—it's the history of interpretation, the rule of faith, as has been passed down in the confessions.  
  
So here we go. Concern number one with lordship salvation is that it confuses the order of salvation—or in a more theological way, there's a confusion in the _ordo salutis_ or the order of salvation. What we're talking about here is how people are actually saved and what this looks like in a human being's life. In particular, what we're getting at here is that the historical Reformed understanding is that regeneration precedes faith and repentance and obedience and all those things. In fact, repentance and obedience in particular are fruits of salvation; they are not what saves a person. There is a confusion of all of that in the lordship salvation stream because it comes across, it sounds as though a person, in order to be saved, must repent of sin—like you said, Jon—and at least be willing to obey all of the commands of the Lord, if not be obeying them in order to be right with God.  
  
Our pushback against that is no, we do not have to do anything in order to come to Christ. Christ bids us to come to him, to cast ourselves upon him, to trust him for everything that we need in terms of salvation and our standing before God. This is very similar to the Marrow Controversy that broke out in the Church of Scotland in the 18th century. There was a small rural presbytery, the Auchterarder Presbytery, where it became a very controversial matter in terms of this one question of examination that was effectively getting at this issue: must somebody forsake sin in order to come to Christ? It split the Church of Scotland because there were some known as the Marrow brethren, because of the book _The Marrow of Modern Divinity_ and their association with that book who were adamant. And we would agree with the Marrow brethren that no, we must not do anything in order to come to Jesus. Because if we do need to do anything in order to come to Christ, then we're all damned. So lordship, we fear, is very confusing on this because it sounds like there's stuff that you need to do in order to be able to legitimately come to Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm going to go to Ezekiel 36:26\. This is the promise of the new covenant, and just even understanding the nature of the new covenant. It says in verse 26, "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove your heart of stone from your flesh and give you," notice who's the acting agent here—God, "a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." The first acting part is God removing death and then giving us life, giving us the Spirit, and then giving us the capacity to obey. Notice the nature of that. That just flows into the New Testament. You start hearing Paul say, "You were dead in your trespasses and sins, but He made you alive," Ephesians 2\. Later on he says that He now causes you to walk in the good works that He had preordained for you, but the order is important: it's dead, alive, obey. That's the order as the Reformed describes the _ordo salutis_. It's the way in which we understand regeneration in the process of sanctification afterwards. It's not sanctification before. We'll get to that in a little bit. But the order is important; one, it's given to us in Scripture, and two, it also is important because it helps you understand how the nature of salvation works. You're dead, the gospel is heralded, new heart, now you obey.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. The message of Christ, the word of Christ, is preached, which is the means that the Lord ordinarily uses to save people. So as Christ is heralded and Christ is preached, God gives literally new hearts to people. He acts upon their hearts and gives them a life. And upon being given life, the scales fall off of our eyes, our hearts are set free. We're actually rational for the first time in our lives. We see Christ, and we don't know everything at that moment, but we know we need him. That's how this works. God does this supernatural thing. He performs a miracle and gives us life in the new birth, which then results in faith, and then results in repentance and obedience, etc.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I know that there are objections because there are a lot of people who love Calvinism and then would also love lordship salvation. They would say that those who espouse lordship salvation would agree with their understanding of _ordo salutis_, that no one can ever be saved. But this is where we say there's category confusion. This is the inconsistency when you don't have historical theology and orthodoxy and understand the categories that I think bump up and keep you from making errors in your theology. They will say things like, "No, no. We believe that regeneration must happen before there's obedience." And then in the same breath say, "But unless you repent and make Jesus Lord, you cannot be saved."  
  
Justin Perdue: What you're doing there is inverting the relationships—you're changing that order. We're going to get to this more on our last talking point, actually, when we get to talking about justification and sanctification, but streams only flow one way. They only flow downhill. You cannot reverse the order or invert relationships here. This is where, again, it matters that we say regeneration, faith, repentance, then obedience. One is the fruit of the other. So whenever you speak in a way that makes it sound like repentance and obedience are just part and parcel of being saved, and it gets confusing as to what comes first and how this actually happens, and what produces the other, that's a problem.  
  
Our first concern with lordship salvation is confusion about the order of salvation. Number two, we are concerned that lordship salvation redefines faith in what it even is. As compared to a historical Reform definition of faith, the lordship stream is very confusing here because they seem to desire to weave things into the definition of saving faith that the Reformed have not historically understood to be a part of faith.  
  
For example, in the lordship camp, there is a desire to say, to teach, to preach even that repentance and obedience, or even a desire to obey, are a part of what faith itself is; that faith is inseparable in terms of its essence, and what it is faith is inseparable from repentance and obedience. We want to be really clear: the Reformed have always said that where there is saving faith, repentance and obedience will be present. That is true. But there always has to be a distinction maintained between faith and repentance, and between faith and obedience. They are not one and the same. Saving faith, for example, as the 1689 London Baptist Confession would define it, consists of trusting, resting, and hoping in the Lord Jesus Christ for justification, sanctification, and glorification on the basis of the covenant of grace. As you hear, even that definition—that's in 14.2 of our confession—there is nothing there about repentance and there is nothing there about obedience. Our confession says things about repentance and it says things about obedience, but not when it defines what faith is. Our concern with lordship is that those things are collapsed together, and it sounds as though repentance and obedience is a part of faith.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Under "Good Works" of the London Baptist Confession, and this would be the same as Westminster, chapter 16, what we're trying to help explain here is redefining faith. So it says in point three: "Their ability to do good works does not arise at all from themselves, but entirely from the Spirit of Christ." So what he's describing that as is the result of, it's not the cause of.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's not even part of.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No. Being able to go back and look at the confessions and look at the Scriptures that they use as far as an explanation in defending the positions by which they have come to these conclusions is helpful. Because when you read certain passages, for instance, that say, "Repent and believe for the kingdom is near," we get all kinds of categories. They'll say, "Jon, it literally says that in the text so I literally have to believe it." One, that's Biblicism, which we did our whole entire podcast on that—and you can go and listen to it. We'll put it in the notes. But being able to distinguish and understand and read... basically the whole argument is redefining faith. It's turning it into something that it seems that the rest of Scripture is in complete disagreement with.  
  
Justin Perdue: Like faith includes obedience or faith includes repentance. Our is that no, it doesn't. Faith is actually separate and distinguishable from those things. And yes, where there is saving faith, there will be repentance and obedience. Absolutely true. The Reformed have said that for centuries.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There's never a disconnect there. Then you're going against what James says.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think the damaging results of this, whenever you start to change the definition of faith and you weave repentance and obedience into that definition, you rob people of any possibility of assurance. Because now, in order to even have legitimate faith in the Lord Jesus, I need to be adequately repenting and I need to be adequately obeying. And nobody, of course, can define that standard in terms of what adequate repentance or adequate obedience looks like. Because God's Word is pretty clear, when it comes to obedience in particular, that only perfection passes muster. Nothing short of perfection is acceptable. Then we have to talk about sincerity and our motivations and all this kind of stuff, and it gets uber confusing—to the point where I don't know that any of us are saved if adequate repentance and obedience are a part of what it even means to believe in Christ. It's very confusing. It's very harmful.  
  
Do you have any other thoughts about that before we move on to the next?  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is where certain kinds of preaching comes, where they are always trying to snuff out the lazy Christian, the fake Christian, the nominal Christian, those who said the sinner's prayer but aren't really believers. This has been coming more and more into the Facebook group. People are just sending me more and more clips by prominent Calvinistic preachers who are making claims that the majority of Christians in churches today have a false sense of assurance. What they're doing is they're pointing to this issue that we're talking about, which is redefining faith.  
  
Justin Perdue: Some of these other categories, I think, will apply to those preacher clips as well. We'll probably talk about that as we go.  
  
We're now moving on to talking point number three. So number one is confusion about the order of salvation. Number two, a redefinition of faith. Number three, a collapsing of law and gospel.  
  
We are concerned that lordship salvation collapses law and gospel. Probably if you've been listening to the Theocast for much time at all, you've heard us talk before about the distinction between law and gospel. That is a Reformed and Lutheran category that's been around for a long time, where law exists in the Old and New Testament, and gospel exists in the Old and New Testament. And whenever you hear words of things that we are to be doing, you are hearing law. Whenever you hear of what God has done, particularly in the person and work of Jesus, that's gospel.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Before you give an example, I want to give an introduction to what you're about to say. Collapsing the law and gospel means you end up changing the very nature of them. For instance, the law becomes achievable and the gospel now has something to achieve.  
  
Justin Perdue: The law is now a means of salvation and the gospel now contains all kinds of things to do.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. And that's why it becomes achievable. You lower the standard of the law and it is now, "If I repent enough, I can be saved." And now the gospel is, "When you repent enough, you can be saved." there becomes such a mixture between the two that we really don't know the difference between what is the law that condemns us and what is the gospel that now saves us.  
  
Justin Perdue: Whenever you confuse law and gospel, the way I like to summarize it to people a lot in terms of it's damaging fallout is that the gospel is turned into a covenant of works that needs to be kept for righteousness. So this is where you get all that language of the demands of the gospel, or even another John MacArthur title, _Hard to Believe_. The gospel ends up sounding hard when the law and the gospel are confused.  
  
Let me give an example from Luke 10 of how lordship salvation and others confuse law and gospel. It just becomes really concerning for people and people don't know what to do. This is right before the parable of the good Samaritan, beginning in Luke 10:25: "And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, 'Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'" So this lawyer comes and asks Jesus this question. Jesus said to him, "'What is written in the Law? How do you read it?' And he answered, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.' And he said to him, 'You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.'" The lawyer is going to go ahead and ask who his neighbor is, seeking to justify himself and all that. But here's the point: in the lordship camp, you hear people say both things when they represent Jesus and the message that Jesus brought and taught. They'll say, "Well, Jesus, on the one hand, says that we need to believe in him for eternal life. But then on the other hand, Jesus says that you need to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself if you're going to live forever."  
  
What ends up happening is we pit the two against each other and create all kinds of confusion. That's what happens in the lordship camp. Whereas for us in a Reformed law-gospel place, we say no, Jesus says, "Believe in me for eternal life," when he preaches the gospel. But then when he teaches the law, this is a summary of the law: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. That is law and not gospel. So instead of pitting the two against each other, "Believe in me," and, "Love God with all your heart," if you're going to have eternal life, we realize that belief in Christ actually provides righteousness. We have not loved the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, strength. We have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. But through faith in Christ, his perfect obedience is counted to us as though we kept the law. That's how we would say you rightly understand law and gospel. When Jesus talks about loving God and loving neighbor, he's preaching law. When he talks about coming to him and believing in him and receiving what he has done, he is talking about gospel.  
  
Belief in Christ provides the other righteousness according to the law. The lordship salvation camp confuses these things and then starts to say that—and again, it's biblicism—"You heard Jesus say it: if you're going to live forever, you better love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength." To which I want to raise my hand to say, "If that's true, then we're all damned because none of us have done that even for five minutes." So there must be something else. Maybe belief in Christ provides us with all the righteousness that we need, because he always loved God perfectly, and he always loved his neighbor perfectly, and he always kept the law perfectly.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Part of the New Testament is the Pharisees and the Sadducees lowering the standards of the law to make it achievable. And Jesus is always coming and saying the famous phrase, "You've heard it said, 'Do not sleep with another man's wife.' But I tell you you're going to be condemned of the law if you lust." What you have Jesus doing is that these people walk up to prove they are acceptable and righteous in the eyes of God. Jesus says, "You want to be acceptable in the eyes of God." Then he gives them the requirements to be acceptable in the eyes of God. We hear that and we collapse law and gospel. We hear, "Oh, that's what it must mean in order to be saved by Jesus. I have to forsake my mother and my father. I have to pick up my cross. I have to do this. I have to do that." What Jesus is saying is if you want self-righteousness to be acceptable in the eyes of God, this is what it looks like. Because to the sinner who is broken and comes to Jesus, he says, "Come to me." At that moment, Jesus has already presented himself to be Messiah—perfect One, sent by God, Redeemer, the Final Lamb. "Behold, the Lamb of God." When Jesus says, "Come to me," all of those titles are what that means. "When you come to me, I am Priest. I am Prophet. I am King. I am Redeemer. I am Lamb." You aren't coming to Jesus to prove to him you mean business.  
  
This is where I scratch my head because depravity is a doctrine that most people who believe in lordship hold to, but yet it seems to go out the window. Because no one can obey God unless the Spirit grants them. That is John 6\. That is Ephesians 2\. Yet somehow, we get to a place where the law allows us to adjust the _ordo salutis_. No, the law condemns; the gospel saves. There's nothing to do in the gospel other than you receive it—and you can't even do that unless the Spirit grants you faith. That's Ephesians 2\. It is a gift of God, lest any man should boast.  
  
So when you come up against a passage with Jesus putting a requirement on you, and you're feeling the weight of it, you need to hear that as Jesus is beating down any self-righteousness that, I might want to try and claim so that God would accept me. Then you hear the tender words of Jesus saying, "There's nothing for you to do to be saved but to believe in me," now you're understanding the gospel.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. Two really quick thoughts before we move on. We've said this before, but it bears repeating. If you read through the gospels with this lens on, I think it's very helpful.  
  
Notice how Jesus interacts with those who think that they're righteous, or who think that they can achieve righteousness, and then go through the gospels and observe how he interacts with people who know they're not righteous and realize they got nothing to stand on and nothing to bring. Look at how he interacts with them. And I would say, with basically no exceptions, for all of those who come to him trusting in their own righteousness or who think they can achieve it, he is at times harsh. He is really crushing them with the law. It's like he is saying to them, "Okay, you think you've done it? You haven't done it. And here's what the law requires." He speaks and you hear it, then you conclude it's impossible. Exactly.  
  
But then when he interacts with people who know they've got no merit, they've got no righteousness, and they've got nothing to stand on, he looks at them like he does the woman of the city in Luke 7 and says, "You're forgiven. Though your sins be many, you're forgiven."  
  
Jon Moffitt: You have the prostitute and the, and the Pharisee in the same room. And how does he talk to them differently?  
  
Justin Perdue: Correct. We're not saying that to be a Pharisee is bad and to be a prostitute is good, because some people ridiculously draw that conclusion. No, we're not saying that. Both are sinners in need of a Savior, just like all of us. The point of it is not what you've done; the point of it is do you know you need Christ? Right. And when people know they need him, Jesus is gentle and lowly. It's Matthew 11\. He bids people to come to him. "All of you who are weary and heavy laden." With what? The demands of the law and the things that the Pharisees had put on them. "Come to me and I'll give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I'm gentle and lowly in heart." His yoke was used to describe the yoke of the law. Christ said, "Take my yoke upon you because it's really light." How is that? "Because I've kept the law for you. Come to me and you'll find rest for your souls." And lordship salvation confuses this relationship and the gospel ends up sounding hard.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Even going back to Luke 7\. The whole illustration of why Luke records that is when Jesus says, "She loves much because she's been forgiven much." And then Jesus goes on to say that this Pharisee never showed any affection towards Jesus at all because he didn't see the need for Jesus. The law should be that tool that knocks you in the shins and causes you to, in pain, fall to the ground and say, "What a wretch I am." Jesus often had to keep upping the law and they still didn't get it.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or it's that weight that's placed upon you that literally just pins you to the floor and you can't get out from under it. That's what the law is.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He's not saying only those who are dedicated, only those who are fully going to abandon everything, or it's only those who really put on the hiking boots...  
  
Justin Perdue: Or all of those whose affections are in the right place all the time.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. There are multiple passages where, you already said, that Jesus basically says to obey all the Law and the Prophets and you will be saved.  
  
Justin Perdue: They think that is part of the good news. No, that's the law. It's a summary of the law.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And It's not only that—they are so blind by their own sin that they assume they can actually keep the law. That's what I'm saying about a lowering of the law. If you lower the level of the law and make it achievable, you're no longer looking at the law. You've collapsed it in the gospel.  
  
Justin Perdue: What's interesting is that the lordship stream will often criticize guys like us because they'll say that we're not taking the holiness of God or the law of God seriously enough. That's not true because what we're trying to uphold here is the holiness of God and the holy righteous requirements of the law that no one can meet. You're talking about the law in such a way that it sounds as though we can actually do this. So you're having to relativize its standards, as you've said, which is not a good thing to do.  
  
Let's keep talking a little bit about the law moving on to talking point number four. Number one is the confusion of the order of salvation, number two is a redefinition of faith, and number three is the collapsing of law and gospel. The fourth concern we have about lordship salvation is a confusion on uses of the law.  
  
Just a summation, at least in our confessional tradition, of how we define the three uses of the law: first use is to show us our sin and drive us to Christ; the second use is the civil use to restrain our corruption and teach us what's good, what's bad, what's right, what's wrong; third use is to guide our lives in Christ—by the Spirit of Christ that works in us, we will be conformed to the law though the law no longer threatens us because Christ has kept it for us and has taken our punishment as a law. He became a law breaker and took the punishment of the law for us. We're no longer condemned by it. It's no longer a fearful thing for us, but it guides our lives. It's our kind adviser, as John Calvin would say.  
  
Our concern with Lordship salvation is that there is an utter collapsing and confusion of these uses of the law. To me, the only kind of tone that's ever used when talking about the law in the lordship salvation camp is a threatening, exacting tone. And it's not because they're only preaching the first use of the law; they're actually preaching the law Christians, but it sounds scary. Obey or else. And we would say that the third use of the law ought not be done in an exacting, threatening way. To guide the Christian's life, it's not, "Do this or else." No, you've been united to Christ, and here's now how we live together in the church. Here's how we live as those who have been united to Christ by faith.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I don't know how many people who espouse lordship salvation understand the uses of the law. Again, I can remember when I was trained at TMS, I never heard this concept until I started engaging in Reformed confessional theology.  
  
Justin Perdue: And the confessional Lutheran theology, too.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Specifically, the first use and third use are very important because the first use is only always condemn: perfection, condemn. If you want to know what causes you to be alienated from God and under His condemnation, the first use of the law is designed to be that schoolmaster who will absolutely teach you that you're condemned.  
  
Justin Perdue: Can I interject one thing really quickly? I think the first use of the law can be preached to Christians, but here's what it sounds like: it's not, "You are condemned." It's more of, "Hey, let's all remember what God requires. Let's remember that even now on the backside of conversion and union with Christ, we can't keep the law adequately." Today, just like the first day we believed, we are saying, "Were it not for Christ, I stand condemned." We can talk like that as Christians, but we're not threatening people with it. We're reminding one another of the impossibility of keeping the law and why we need Jesus. But that's not what's going on in the lordship string.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. So then we get to the third use of the law, which is to guide us as Christians. In the third use of the law, you never hear, "Do this and live." A good example of this would be something like Ephesians 4: walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called. 2 Peter, 1:3-9, which talks about adding to your faith godliness. They're always saying this is the reflection, and the Bible says that if you are a believer, you do these things.  
  
It's not, "If you want to obey." This is the new covenant promise. You will walk in these truths. This is why even in the confessions, they say those who have faith obey at varying levels.  
  
Justin Perdue: You've got a new identity now. You're in Christ. You have a new status now. You're justified. You've been adopted into the family of God and here's how God's kids live. That's what the third use is.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. We believe in church discipline because it is there to protect the church and the believer.  
  
Justin Perdue: And to restore those who are going astray.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Galatians 6:1 is important. Romans 15\. Matthew and the steps of church discipline. But here's where the danger is: sometimes you hear the first use of the law being given to believers. It's the "obey or else" kind of attitude in that if you don't live up to a certain level of Christianity, a certain level of obedience—which I have been questioning how much obedience for years—then you're truly not a disciple of Jesus Christ. And the danger in that is that you are trying to motivate people by two things: fear and condemnation. But there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. And number two, what does 2 Peter 1:9 say? If these truths are not true about you and increasing—godliness, patience, kindness—what does he say that you forgot?  
  
Justin Perdue: You've forgotten the good news.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You've forgotten that you've been cleansed from your former sins. He doesn't point back to the first use of the law; he actually points back to the gospel for their motivation of obedience. Lordship salvation often calls into question the faith of the Christians who have been tossed about by every wind of doctrine, Ephesians 4, and who are not strong in their faith. Whereas Paul even to the Corinthians, you don't see Paul doing this. "I want to come and preach Christ to you." Or 2 Peter 1:9\. "You've forgotten you've been cleansed." The motivation for the believer who is weak in obedience is not condemnation under the law—first use—but it is encouragement in the gospel. Act as what you have received. You've received mercy and grace, now live in it.  
  
Justin Perdue: There's a lot I could say, but we're running short on time and we need to get to our fifth talking point. We trust there'll be more podcasts to be recorded where we can talk a little bit about the uses of the law. We actually have talked about how we've not done a podcast on the uses of the law. We need to do it soon. Maybe that'll be coming down the pipe. We'll see.  
  
Fifth talking point. I just recap them all as we go lest there be any confusion. Our concerns with Lordship salvation: number one is the confusion about the order of salvation, number two is a redefinition of faith, number three is the collapsing of law and gospel, and number four is a confusion of the uses of the law. Finally, number five is a confusion of the relationship between justification and sanctification.  
  
Justification is the declaration of God that we are just in His sight on the basis of what Christ alone has done in our place. He has paid the penalty we deserve, and we have been credited with and we have been given the righteousness of Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to us, credited to our account, and it's as though we did everything that Jesus did, and God looks at us and says, "Just." That is justification. Sanctification is the process by which we are transformed more and more into the image of Christ, into the likeness of Christ, and we are conformed even to live more and more according to God's law. And this is going to be over the course of our lives. It will ebb and flow. It will look different in different seasons. It is ultimately a work that God Himself, by His Spirit, does as a result of our union with Christ.  
  
We do agree that all those who are justified will be sanctified. It is not a question. It is certain because God will see to it. At the same time, there must be a proper distinction maintained between justification and sanctification. What lordship salvation does is collapse the two. Instead of talking about it the right way, where our sanctification flows out of our justification—that's the Reformed understanding—lordship makes it sound as though we are building our justification on our sanctification and we are anchoring our righteous standing before God on our obedience, on our desire to obey, or even on the adequacy of our repentance. Nobody would ever say it like that, but that's how it comes across. It's that "prove it" kind of theology. It's that "prove it" mentality. It's like you need to obey in order so that you might prove that you're really justified—and that is not how the Scriptures taught, it's not how the Reformed have understood it. You're making some category shifts and you're confusing some things because it is true that all those who are justified will be sanctified. "If you're not being sanctified at all, you may very well not be justified." True. "Therefore, pursue sanctification like crazy to know you're justified." Wrong. You can't do that. And that's what lordship does: prove you're justified through your obedience, through your desire to obey, through your repentance, and the like. It doesn't work that way. The stream does not flow uphill.  
  
Like you said, it's 2 Peter 1\. You've got to point people back to the gospel. That's the source. That's the fountainhead.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Calvin argued that the essence of the Christian life is assurance; it's not the pursuit of the Christian life. In lordship salvation, the pursuit of the Christian life is assurance. We are pursuing good works so that we can find a firm footing in assurance and you're reversing it—you're looking at your sanctification to clarify your justification. You're supposed to look to your justification as the root cause of your sanctification.  
  
We'll just quote Scripture here: Philippians 1\. "He who began a good work in you will complete it." Not you. Sanctification is not synergistic—it's not you and God working together. But at the same time, he says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Amen to God. And what he means by fear and trembling is not dread and doubt; he means with reverence and awe. He says to work it out because God is the one working in you. Galatians 3, he asks who tripped them up. It's not, "You come to faith and now you do the rest." He says the same way you start is the same way you continue: it's by faith and the Spirit.  
  
When you start emphasizing your sanctification as a means to clarify your justification, and these might be two big words for someone who's brand new to this... I feel like these passages are very clear. Yes, we obey. It is a part of the Christian life. Just like human beings breathe, Christians obey. At times we don't obey like we should, and at times we can go for long periods of time, which we've done multiple podcasts on. But if you are grounding your standing before God as an adopted child based upon your obedience, that means it is possible for you to go from being an adopted child to not being an adopted child. That is dangerous.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm tempted to read the John Calvin quote again that I read in the first one that people liked so much, and that might be a good way to put a bow on this.  
  
John Calvin in _The_ _Institutes_ writes this: "For if they begin to judge their salvation by good works," which is what we're talking about right now, "nothing will be more uncertain or more feeble; from this it comes about that the believer's conscience feels more fear and consternation than assurance. If righteousness is supported by works in God's sight, it must entirely collapse, and it is confined solely to God's mercy, solely to communion with Christ, and therefore solely to faith." So he's clear there at the end that this is all about mercy, this is all about union with Christ, this is all about faith when it comes to even our good works that we would perform. It's all done that way and we can not look to validate our standing before the Lord through our good works. Nothing will be more feeble and nothing will be more damaging because we can't do it. That occurs often in the teaching of the Lordship salvation stream.  
  
We hope this episode has been good in adding maybe some clarifying comments in giving you some handles and takeaways in terms of what the concerns are that we have with lordship salvation. Jonathan, you got one more thing to say before we head over to.  
  
Over in SR, I think we're going to have a conversation about sustainability and the Christian life. What is it that will really last over the long term? Then we may even talk a little bit more about the posture and the tone that we aim to strike here at Theocast, because that's a relevant thing to discuss in light of critiquing another stream of theology.  
  
Anyway, we're grateful for all of you guys for listening. We sincerely hope that this has been clarifying and encouraging for you. We hope that you are encouraged all the more in the Lord Jesus Christ. He really has done enough. We are forgiven and we have been declared righteous on the basis of Christ alone, and we receive what he did by faith alone.  
  
We are now making our way over to the Semper Reformanda podcast. That's the other podcast we record every week. This is kind of our family time with people that have partnered with Theocast. That's a fun conversation every week. We kind of pull the filter down a little and talk about things behind the curtain. We just talk very honestly with our listeners about just the Christian life and how we need to do this thing. So if that sounds like something you'd want to listen to, you can find out more information about Semper Reformanda, and in general, how you can partner with us over on our website at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. We've got an app and all kinds of things related to that ministry where we're trying to connect people all over the place—geographically situated groups and virtual online groups—where we can continue this kind of conversation about rest in Christ. Check out all that out on the website. Avail yourselves of that.  
  
For those of you headed over to SR, we'll talk with you there. For the rest of you, we will speak with you again next week. That's all we got. Grace and peace.

---

### Battling Discouragement

*Published: August 18, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/battling-discouragement*
*Tags: Anxiety, Battling Discouragement, Depression*

Life in this fallen world is often hard. We struggle in our minds and hearts with any number of things. We fight against our own sin and are affected by the sin of others. In other words, the reasons for discouragement are many. Not surprisingly, we continually find ourselves in a battle against discouragement. If that is you, you are not alone. What can we say to these things? What hope is there in the struggle? Jon, Justin, and Jimmy discuss these things on today's episode.  
  
Semper Reformanda: The guys continue to consider the battle against discouragement and particularly how it is fought within the context of the local church. We offer some thoughts on how to assess your church context, but mainly the discussion centers around the necessity of living life in the body of Christ.  
  
Giveaway: ["By Grace Alone" by Sinclair Ferguson](https://amzn.to/3iSlhLQ)  
  
https://youtu.be/7TH4qh8MzbQ  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Coming soon...

---

### For God So Hated the World

*Published: August 11, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/for-god-so-hated-the-world*
*Tags: Angry Preaching*

Listening to many preachers and teachers, it sounds like God, deep down, hates the world. Yes, he sent his Son to save sinners, but he does that only for his own glory--and even then, reluctantly. Jesus, too, really didn't care for sinners. He came holding his nose and was really on earth to rebuke everyone. This presentation of God has produced a lot of fear, or perhaps even hatred of him. But, the question is, is this presentation biblical? Jon and Justin consider that on this episode.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about adoption--how God has brought us into his own family through the blood of his Son. We now call God, "Father." The guys also get into some law/gospel stuff and a biblical understanding of God's holiness.

Giveaway: ["The Bruised Reed" by Richard Sibbes](https://amzn.to/3fVP6ZV)

Scripture References:  
John 2:13-17  
Mark 2:23-27  
Luke 6:6-11  
Luke 13:1-5  
Mark 7:1-23  
Luke 18:18-27  
Luke 15  
Matthew 9:12-13  
Matthew 11:28-30  
Matthew 12:18-21  
John 10:14-18  
John 14:1-3  
John 17:24  
Luke 12:32  
Luke 7:36-50  
Romans 8:15  
1 John 3:1

https://youtu.be/xoeBfWWICdA

**Podcast Transcript**

Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we're going to be talking about God; in particular, we're going to be talking about God's posture towards us. If you listen to many preachers and many theologians talk, it seems like God deep down hates the world and hates us. He redeems us and He saves some sinners, but He does that purely for His own glory, but He doesn't really want to do that. Then even Jesus himself came into the world kind of holding his nose and not very happy about the mission that he was on, and all of his interactions with sinners was really just to rebuke and yell at people. God is presented as harsh and Jesus is presented the same way. What this has produced in so many Christians, and so many of us, is fear, where the thought of standing before Christ or being with the Lord is a terrifying prospect. So the question is, is that presentation of God biblical? Is it accurate? Is that presentation of Jesus accurate? That's what Jon and I are going to be talking about on today's episode. If this interests you, which we assume it does, stay tuned.

This is a good conversation we're going to have. This has been prompted by a number of things, even by some posts that we've seen recently, but I think this is more of just an ongoing observation.

I think a lot of times, the way that God is depicted in general, is that deep down, God really just hates us: He hates sin, He hates sinners, and He is just completely and altogether displeased with us. The only reason that he would ever save sinners like us is because it brings Him glory somehow—but He reluctantly does that. Even Jesus, the second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, took on flesh and entered into this world—and he really did it while holding his nose, not wanting to be here, not wanting to come and do what he did. He interacted with sinners on earth and hated it the entire time. He came to yell at the Jews because they had misunderstood true religion. He also came to spend time with tax collectors and sinners, but he only did that so that he could effectively rebuke them and yell at them too.

It is just this depiction of Christ as a very harsh and exacting, threatening, and even frightening person; the last thing in the world you'd want to do is be near him. It's very clearly a misrepresentation of him because sinners, in particular people who knew that they had no righteousness, could not stay away from him. The people that thought they were righteous had a problem with him, but those who knew that they were bankrupt and devoid of righteousness seemed to flock to him in droves and wanted to be near him and hear what he had to say.

Not to bury the lead here. The title of this episode is one of the punchier titles we've come up with in a while: _For God So Hated the World_. What we're trying to depict here is that far from God just hating all of us, hating everything, and reluctantly saving us, and Jesus coming into the world, hating his mission, hating us, and just coming to rebuke every week, the Scripture actually bears witness to the fact that Jesus willingly did this and that God loves us. God delights to save us. He is gracious and merciful and compassionate and tender. Jesus says these things about himself: "He came the first time, not to judge us, but to save us." This is the testimony of the Scripture.

The reason why this matters a lot to me is I know for myself personally, because of the kind of teaching that I was exposed to for years combined with my natural constitution and an anxious conscience, what this means is that in my low moments, when I'm melancholy and struggling, feeling flat and dry spiritually, I do not have naturally good feelings in those moments about standing before Christ at the end of time.

 I think for many people, they feel the same thing: the thought of standing before Christ at the end of it all is a frightening and terrifying prospect. The last thing in the world that you think would be good for you is to be near him because the only picture you've really ever been given of him is that he is holy and terrifying and hates sinners.

Today in this podcast, we want to be able to unpack the biblical representation and presentation of Jesus in his earthly ministry, and then connect that to God, because Jesus says, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." I hope that this conversation is really comforting for people and encouraging. I trust that I'm going to be comforted as we keep talking about this stuff. I already have been comforted in my own mind as I was thinking about some of these things this morning, and then certainly talking with Jon before we recorded.

Let me throw a quick disclaimer out before we go any further, because we don't like being misunderstood, and we don't want to be in this episode.

Nothing that we're about to say should be understood to mean that Jesus came into the world indifferent about sin. God hates sin and there's a reason why He sent His son so that we could be delivered and rescued from it, and so that we could be given a righteousness that we don't have. So it's not that Jesus was indifferent about sin or that Jesus came with all this compassion, gentleness, and meekness, and he never told anybody they were wrong, or that he's just affirming people in their sin and is saying, "Hey, do whatever you want. It really doesn't matter. All we want to do is just celebrate everybody and we ought not judge each other." That's not at all what we understand Jesus to have done. So we're not communicating that in any way. But what we want to do is use a little bit of law-gospel and some other tools that are in our tool belt and approach the ministry of Jesus from an accurate perspective and chop it up a little.

Jon Moffitt: This is where law-gospel distinction is very important. (If you're new to this, in our notes, we will provide a couple of podcasts. We have a specific one on law-gospel.) What we like to do is then use that paradigm to explain Scripture, explain the nature of God, the nature of Jesus, and the nature of men.

We believe firmly that in the Reformed tradition that we have been handed, that we do use a law-gospel distinction—law being that which only condemns and gospel being that which brings to life good news.

What you're describing, Justin, in the introduction, the way I had it in my mind is Jesus, the righteous Son, walks around and says, "Hey, you peasants. If you don't repent of your evil ways, I shall boot you out of the Kingdom. I'm here to deal with you peasants. It's annoying to me that I have to come here because y'all can't obey." This is not the Jesus we're talking about.

We don't understand the position versus the disposition of God. So it is clear in Scripture that the position that we have in relationship to God is child of wrath. Enemy. We can use passages like Psalm 7:11, where it says God is a righteous judge and He has indignation all of the time. You and I had mentioned Nahum 1:2 and the following. Let me just read you a couple of verses and we'll jump down, but it says, "The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies." Jump down to verse 6: "Who can stand before the indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire and the rocks are broken into pieces by him."

So we will uphold, with firm foundations, the absolute indignation and righteous holiness of God. Under the law, that is true. This is why you can't lower the law or make the law achievable, otherwise, you are saying that you can endure God's wrath. The point of the law is that you see the law and you see the requirements of the law.

Let's just do one command of the law: love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, above all other gods or anything. We don't even need to look at the rest of the Old Testament. Don't even look at the rest of it. Just do that one law, and you should say, "Yeah, I am condemned. And then the conclusion should be now what Nahum was saying about you.

Justin Perdue: If that's the greatest commandment, I have so failed to keep it that I am ruined.

Jon Moffitt: By God's nature, which is hard for us as humans to understand, we somehow categorize God into emotions or we categorize Him into responses. Some describe God as an angry God, and then you have other people describing God as a loving God as if it's two separate beings. And yet in the complexity, God can be both. We don't understand that His anger and love can be something that is true of both statements. Outside of Christ, He is angry at me; inside of Christ, He's not—but that doesn't work with how Paul describes things. The difference between our position, a lot of times the Old Testament prophets, and even Paul when he says there is none righteous, we're all under God's condemnation, that is your position but that doesn't mean that's God's disposition towards you. While we were yet sinners, what does it say? Christ died for us. We can acknowledge our position as sinners and being underneath the wrath of God, but we have to also acknowledge the rest of Scripture that describes the disposition of God towards sinners.

Justin Perdue: That he's a Redeemer. And it's not just that He saves people because it brings Him glory—of course it does—but it is His nature that He delights to pour out grace and mercy on people who, by definition, don't deserve those things.

Jon Moffitt: Can I read verse seven in continuation? Nahum 1:7: "The Lord is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble; he knows those who take refuge in him." So those are the kinds of things that we understand law and gospel to be. That passage from Nahum is a great example of a law and gospel passage.

Justin Perdue: His indignation and wrath are so intense. What is the only hope for sinners? It's to take refuge in the Rock of Ages where we can hide ourselves.

Jon Moffitt: So there's our introduction. So Justin, let's go ahead and get into the meat of what we wanted to talk about today: Jesus' disposition towards sinners. What does Jesus want us to know about him?

Justin Perdue: Last preliminary statement: I don't want to impugn anybody's motivations. I assume that when people are preaching holiness and wrath and some of the things that I described in a punchy way where Christ is depicted as a frightening figure, I assume that they mean well, and that what they're meaning to do is give legitimate credence to the holiness of God, the righteousness of God, and like you said, God's indignation rightly against evil and sin. But rather than producing reverence and awe before God, all it ends up doing is producing a fear of Him that causes us either to hate Him or to be absolutely terrified of being near Him. Rather than the right preaching of law and gospel and of holding Christ out—as he has described himself and as his ministry would depict him—when you preach law and gospel and hold Christ out to people, I think what you do end up producing is reverence and awe before the Lord. That holy God loves me, He is graciously inclined toward me, He has given me mercy, and He has done so much for me that He has provided me with all the righteousness and holiness that I need, and He just gives that to me. He has dealt with my sin because He is righteous, but He has done it in such a way where he took the punishment that I deserve. Now I want to be near Him and worship Him. I'm in reverence. I'm in awe.

Jon Moffitt: And I would say the greater the authority, the greater the mercy means. For instance, if my neighbor gives me mercy because I accidentally mowed over onto his side of the lawn too far versus a judge who gives me mercy because I murdered somebody, the level of authority and the level of intensity... When it says, "fear of the Lord," it's one of those things that says understand His authority, understand His position, understand His power, but yet you don't walk in trembling as far as you're waiting for the hammer to pounce you. That's the exact opposite description we get from Jesus.

Justin Perdue: The way that I might start this conversation about Jesus in his earthly ministry is with this (I hope) clarifying comment: if you were to survey the gospel accounts—and again, those are not always the best names for them, but it's the life and ministry of Jesus according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John—I think that we will notice that Jesus and his disposition towards different groups of people is different. There are times when Christ does act and speak in a way that is very direct—breathtakingly direct at times; it comes across as harsh and even condemnatory—and then there are other times where he speaks and carries himself in a way that is very gentle, compassionate, tender, lowly, and meek even. People have a hard time parsing this out because in some measure, they don't have a good distinction of law and gospel in view in terms of what Christ is meaning to do. There may be other things associated with this. But I would suggest, as I've studied these passages and these books of the Bible, that pretty much without exception, the times when Jesus is harsh and breathtakingly direct and condemnatory are when he is interacting with people that think that they're righteous, are trusting in themselves that they're righteous, or think that they can achieve righteousness through the law. Then on the flip side, pretty much without exception, whenever he is around people who know that they're sinners, or who are not claiming to be righteous, or understand that they're in a position of need and they are coming with no confidence whatsoever, he is compassionate and gentle and tender and forgives sins. I think that's incredibly instructive for us if we're going to rightly understand Christ.

So I don't know which one you want to start with, Jon. Maybe we start with the direct harsher stuff first and unpack some of that so that we can then land on the sweeter stuff?

The first one that often comes to people's minds is when Jesus is flipping tables over, fashioning a whip, and is basically wrecking shop and turning the temple court inside out and is rebuking people. "My Father's house is meant to be a house of prayer for all nations and you have turned it into a den of robbers." You and I were talking about this passage before we recorded. The way that you and I both understand it, and Reformed Christians have for centuries have understood this, is that all of this hoopla is not the sale of animals itself. It's not that that is so wicked—it was necessary actually because of the sacrificial system and people coming from a long way away and couldn't have brought animals with them. The reason Christ is upset and is indignant is because where all of this hoopla and this circus was taking place is in the court of the Gentiles. It's the only place in the temple complex where the nations could come and have access to God, and in particular, have access to the forgiveness of sins in the Lord's name. Christ is indignant that this whole enterprise and this fiasco that's going on is hindering people; it's hindering the nations in coming to God for the forgiveness of their sins. And so he is indignant about that, rightly, and that's why he turns the place inside out. But a lot of times we just see that as a blanket indictment on everyone—that Jesus is upset about false worship wholesale and that basically, every one of us is in the cross hairs here and Jesus is generally telling all of us that our worship is illegitimate.

Jon Moffitt: If I were to summarize, I'd say Jesus is upset about people who are blocking the gospel. They are blocking grace from the nations, and so he gets upset saying they need to get out of the way. What breaks my heart about the interpretation of some people is that they immediately turn it into some kind of repentance of sinners. He's not upset at the Gentiles; he's upset at the Jews. It's the religious system that blocked grace from people. Justin and I often, on this podcast, get very upset when people block the gospel or block grace from people, requiring something of them or putting a hurdle in their way, and almost making it impossible to believe or follow Jesus.

Justin Perdue: It's not that Jesus is just indignant at sinners in general. He is indignant, like you just said, about barriers that are being erected between people and redemption, forgiveness of sins, and salvation. That needs to be said.

Next example that we came up with was Luke 13\. This is where Jesus is talking again to a Jewish audience and people bring to his attention the Galileans who were slaughtered by Pilate, mingled with these other pagan sacrifices. Jesus says to this group of people, "Do you think that these people were any worse than you? Well, they weren't. You need to repent or you too will likewise perish." Jesus continues, "What about those 18 people in Siloam on whom the tower fell and they died? Do you think that they were worse than you? No, they weren't. You too need to repent." it's very clear in the context. He's talking to people that think they are better than other people. Their base mentality is, "We're not like those people are and thereby are not as sinful or not in the same kind of need, or maybe not even worthy of the same kind of judgment or bad things happening to them. And Christ is meaning to blow up that kind of stupidity and let people see themselves for what they are."

Jon Moffitt: The word "repent" there. We have to ask ourselves what Jesus means by repent. What are they repenting of? We just throw that word out there as if it always means repent of immorality of some sort.

Justin Perdue: I think you're exactly right. I think what Jesus is most often aiming the gun at when it comes to repenting is he is telling them to repent of self-righteousness. Repent of all of these things that you're trusting in that are not going to save you. And in fact, you're trusting and stuff that is at best filthy rags. Stop.

Jon Moffitt: There are some sections where Jesus is dealing with the immorality of a woman. He says, "Go sin no more." Put an Excel spreadsheet together of who Jesus tells to repent of self-righteousness versus who he tells to repent of sin, and he's always poking a finger in the self-righteous' eye, because without the righteousness of Christ, you have no righteousness. And so he's always telling them to repent of their own righteousness.

Justin Perdue: But even that account that you just mentioned in John 8—and I understand that that's a disputed text but still the point is made; it's in our Bibles—and Jesus tells the woman to go and sin no more. What has he done in that circumstance? He has protected her, he has defended her, he has protected her in particular from Pharisees who wanted to stone her. Then he says, "Woman, who is left to condemn you?" And she says, "Nobody." He says, "Well, neither do I condemn you. Now go and sin no more." He is gentle and encouraging. You've just been forgiven, clearly, now go and sin no more—to which we say praise be to God.

Jon Moffitt: Which, as an exegetical note, I don't believe was a part of the original text, but I don't think it's inconsistent with the nature of Jesus.

Justin Perdue: There's a reason why it's been included in the canon.

Other examples are how Jesus is very, very confrontational with the Jewish religious leadership regarding the Sabbath Day. There are a number of passages we could point to where they are trying to either trap Jesus or Jesus will raise things in their presence, whether it's over healing a man with a withered hand or plucking a head of grain on the Sabbath. Jesus makes it very clear that these people—this is one example of many of how they have codified a godly life to death and how they are trusting in living a codified life to earn them something before God. They clearly think they are crushing it and doing what the Lord would require and desire of them in the ways that they have put this fence around the Sabbath. Jesus, again, is blowing up that kind of system and that sort of a schema of religion that, "No, you have not understood this at all. In fact, you think that man was made for the Sabbath when in reality, the Sabbath was made for you. It's for your benefit. I am Lord of the Sabbath and my word stands."

Jon Moffitt: One of the things I'm teaching my church is to look at all the Scripture before you make conclusions about one particular section of Scripture or a doctrine. We did this last time at men's group. Someone was mentioning a section of Romans 10\. And I said, "Yes, but let's read that in light of what all of Scripture has to say about justification." What ends up happening is that someone's disposition towards a particular theological bent, like angry Puritan preachers or even modern day street preachers, is they tend to emphasize one aspect of the nature of God or of the nature of redemption, which is the law .Part of redemption is the law. We have to do it in balance. When we look at Jesus, you see the balance in what Jesus goes after. I think we have to use the posture and the nature and the purpose of Jesus. Jesus literally says, "I have come to do the will of my Father." And what was the will of his Father? It wasn't to bring a sword; he brought redemption. He laid down his life. That was his purpose and will.

Justin Perdue: You're alluding to John 6 amongst other places where Jesus says that basically, he came to do the will of his Father, which is to save sinners and that he would actually lose none of any who come to him. And any who come to him, he will never cast them out. "It is the will of my Father that anybody who believes in me should not perish, but be raised on the last day. And I will do that."

Jon Moffitt: I love the descriptors the New Testament gives Jesus: "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." He is the Shepherd. He is our brother. For sinners, he is living water. For sinners, he is living bread.

Justin Perdue: He is the bread of life that came down from heaven.

Jon Moffitt: Right. For sinners. That's the thing about it. We somehow think it's for those who have made this transition. It's, "While we were in sin, Christ died for us," not, "When we repented, Christ died for us."

Justin Perdue: Or, "Once we have repented adequately and feel the way we should about our sin and are fighting hard enough, then God is pleased to sustain, bless us, and show us grace." It's crazy.

Jon Moffitt: And a lot of this is rooted out of a comment that we had read recently. This is not an uncommon statement within some areas of Christianity: "Jesus is with sinners and the reason he is with them is to call them to repentance." Let's just do an analysis again.

Jesus is described as a friend of sinners. Jesus spends time with sinners so much that he's being described as a drunkard, being criticized for letting prostitutes touch him—and just to be clear, touch not in an inappropriate way. "She's a dirty woman. How could you let her touch your feet?" And yet, when he's dealing with sinners, he describes himself as gentle and lowly. When he's dealing with the self-righteous, he is angry. John the Baptist called them a brood of vipers.

Justin Perdue: Jesus calls the Pharisees "whitewashed tombs" because on the outside they look good, they're doing the right stuff, they're checking the boxes, and they've got all these codes that they follow, but inside they're dead.

Jon Moffitt: So what's the difference between a Pharisee, a whitewashed tomb, and a sinner? Jesus says he has come to save the lost or find the lost. So as a sinner, it makes sense. If Jesus is saying, "These people understand why I'm here—they have no righteousness, they have nothing to cling to, and the Pharisees or the self-righteous are clinging to their own sin." So he's calling them to repent.

Justin Perdue: They're clinging to their own righteousness.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. He calls the self-righteous to repent and he tells those who are beat down by the law and by their sin. He says, "Come to me."

Justin Perdue: So we've already kind of naturally made the transition. There are many other passages we could go to where Jesus is like dropping bombs and setting grenades on the table and pulling the pin. We're already transitioning naturally to some of the other things that he says.

What you just said, Jon, is exactly right. For example, Matthew 9:12-13, where the Pharisees have challenged Jesus. They say to Christ's disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" And then what does Christ say? "When Jesus heard it, he said, 'Those who are well have no need of a physician but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice." For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.'" To your point, this is why he came. He didn't come for those who think that they're righteous already; he came for those who are sinners, and this is why he's here. And what's his posture toward those people? Matthew 11:28-30—which is where we got our tagline from—where he says, "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden..." With what? The demands of the law. Perhaps even the code that had been thrown on top of the law by the Pharisees. "And I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I'm gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." That is the invitation of Jesus to sinners.

Jon Moffitt: Gentle and lowly.

Justin Perdue: Yes. "And I will give you rest. If you're weary and you're burdened, and you're weighed down and getting crushed, I'm who and what you need. Come to me."

Jon Moffitt: I will say this again, and it needs to be said a thousand times: if the invitation of Jesus does not lead you to rest, you have got the wrong invitation from the wrong Bible. How can you miss the point? Weary sinners who feel the weight of the law—which is the purpose of the law. We need the law. The law must be preached. Jesus was the greatest preacher of the law. Bar none. Period. He executed that position clearly because without the law, Jesus cannot be the Redeemer. He presses the law on people, to the point where the disciples say, "Well then, who can be saved?" the rich young ruler also asked, "Who can be saved?" And he says, "With man, it's impossible. But with God, all things are possible." That's what the law should do to you. You should say, "Well, that's impossible."

And I love how the modern day American will say, "Well, everybody is a sinner." that's not what you should say. What you should say is who can be good—and the problem is nobody can be good.

Justin Perdue: I'm just struck by the way that Jesus came and did ministry. Did he call people to repentance? But just to reiterate, what we often mean when we say that is to repent of your immorality—and that's really it. Whereas what Christ means is repent of your immorality, yes, but repent of your own virtue in and your own righteousness in your own eyes and effectively come to him. That's what he's calling people to do. "Come to me and trust me. Find your righteousness here and find your rest here."

Jon Moffitt: As crazy as this sounds—and we probably need to do another podcast on this—but I think it's impossible to repent of all sin.

Justin Perdue: Of course it is.

Jon Moffitt: Because I can't love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, even though it's my ambition.

Justin Perdue: There's a million sins that we commit that we're not aware of.

Jon Moffitt: Which is why you have to repent of the one sin, which is your self-righteousness. Don't hold onto that.

Justin Perdue: These are not the words of Christ, but this is Matthew's description of Jesus, citing the prophet Isaiah—which is where Richard Sibbes got the title for his book, _The Bruised Reeds_.

So Matthew is talking about Jesus and he's healing people and he's doing these things. Matthew says this was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah because Jesus is telling people not to make him known yet. "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets; a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; and in his name the Gentiles will hope."

So again, you have this posture of this servant of God who is Christ, who will not break a bruised reed, he will not snuff out the wick that is just flickering and barely hanging on, but instead he will bring judgment to victory for all those who trust in him. What a marvelous presentation of Christ and his mission. At least the tone and the tenor of that sounds very different than how Christ is often preached.

Jon Moffitt: One more illustration to throw in there. I remember preaching John 4 on the woman at the well. Jesus knows who this woman is, knows what this woman has done, and completely engages with her, which is a surprise to the woman. " How is it that you, being a teacher, are asking me for water?" What does he offer her out of the gate? Living water, not repentance. She's trying to quench her thirst by the flesh, and Jesus says, "Are you tired of that yet? How about I give you water so that you will never thirst again?" And she says, "Give me that water," which she don't doesn't really understand. And when he finally reveals it to her, she loses her mind and runs back into the city to tell people, "Do you know who I just found?"

What I love is that Jesus always has these missionaries that are the broken of the community. They're the scum of the earth. Thinking about Zacchaeus too, right? And in John 20, when Jesus walks into the room and the disciples are there, they have abandoned Jesus, the doors are locked. Luke describes them as screeching like little girls when Jesus appears to them. And he says to them, "Peace be with you." And he shows them his scars in his hands and on his sides. And then he commissions them to complete the Father's mission.

Paul finally makes the description. Not many of us are wise. Not many of us are strong. He describes those whom Jesus saves and he saves the weak, rejected, no-name people, and that's who God uses. Why? Because in the end, Jesus gets all the glory, and we don't want any because we don't have anything to be happy about. Because we're nobody.

Justin Perdue: To be clear about what I said at the outset, God most certainly is glorified in the work of redemption. That is not up for debate. But we totally misrepresent him when we do not say—Luke 15, the parables of Christ—that God delights, finds great joy, and actually celebrates over sinners who repent. God is brought joy in this whole enterprise of salvation. It is not just that He's going to be renowned and praised—of course He will be, but He in His person delights to do this. That to me is one of the biggest mind blows in the universe. The holy God who made us, against Him, we have committed cosmic treason—to use the words of RC Sproul—loves us so much and delights to save us in such a way that He is effectively throwing a party in heaven every time a sinner repents. It's astonishing love, mercy, and grace.

Another passage. Jesus, in John 10, calls himself the Good Shepherd. This is picking up on the language of Ezekiel 34 where the Lord says that He will be the Shepherd of His people, He's going to seek them out, and He's going to save them and bring them to pasture and gather them from where they've been scattered. It's been dark and scary, but He's going to get them and they're going to be safe, and He's going to set up over them his servant, David. By the time Ezekiel was alive, David's been dead for a minute. He's talking about the Christ, the greater David who would come, and Jesus says, "I'm him. I'm the Good Shepherd. I have come, not like a hired hand. I have actually come. I know my own sheep and they know me, and I have come to lay my life down for them. The Father has given me this mission, but I do this of my own accord. I lay my life down willingly. Nobody takes it from me." He's not reluctant in this.

A few chapters later in John's gospel, when he's talking to the disciples during the last night that he's on earth, what is all of that from John 13 on through the high priestly prayer? It's all words of comfort. Because we're told that Jesus had loved his disciples while he was on earth, and then he loved them to the end, and he gives them all these words of comfort, including the beginning of chapter 14: "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, what I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." And he prays for us in John 17:24\. "I desire that you'll be with me where I am to see the glory that the Father gave me before the foundation of the world." Jesus wants us with him.

Jon Moffitt: One last illustration. What does Jesus say to the woman who's washing his feet in the Pharisee's home? Her sins have been forgiven, so she has shown him much love. The point of it is this woman understands her position and understands Jesus' disposition towards her. She feels the freedom and the right to be with Jesus. Think about this. She feels the freedom and the right to wash his feet, not out of fear, but because she knows he loves her. Unreal.

Justin Perdue: The posture that she's coming with is one of humility and meekness. She's not arrogant. She's not trusting in herself. She's a prostitute of the city, for crying out loud.

Jon Moffitt: She's crying over her forgiveness.

Justin Perdue: Exactly. Simon the Pharisee is wigging out and is thinking to himself, "If Jesus knew, if this man was a prophet, he wouldn't have anything to do with it." And Jesus, of course, knows the thoughts of man and confronts the Pharisee. But where that all ends up is, to your point, Luke 7:47 and following, these words are incredible to me: Jesus says to Simon the Pharisee, "Therefore, I tell you, her sins—which are many—are forgiven, for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little loves little." How does Jesus treat this woman who is a prostitute of the city? Does he drop the hammer on her? What are his first words to her? He just said in her presence to the Pharisee that she's forgiven. But then he looks at her and he says, "Your sins are forgiven." Then those who are at table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" Because only God can do that. And then verse 50, to conclude the account, Jesus says to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace." Not her faith in and of itself, but her faith in what? In Jesus. "It has saved you, now go in peace." That is Christ's word to wretched sinners such as us who come to him, knowing that we need him.

Jon Moffitt: What's waiting on the other side of when we come to Jesus is peace. When Jesus tells the disciples, "Peace be to you," and he shows him the scars in his hands, if the Jesus that's being presented to you—which we'll get into in SR—is not one that you can run to with your sin, you've been given the wrong Jesus. He is gentle and lowly, he draws sinners to himself, he has already taken on your sin, and you can run to him boldly, according to Hebrews, and to receive mercy and grace, and it's promised to you every single time you ask for it. That's the Jesus of the Bible.

Justin Perdue: Amen, brother. What an encouraging thought, what an encouraging, incredible message that this is the God of the universe, and this is what He's done for us. Jesus, what a friend for sinners. Just talking about it has been good for my heart. I'm encouraged by God's Word and talking about this and just thinking about the life and ministry of our Savior. I hope, for those of you who have listened to the conversation today, that you too have been encouraged and comforted, and your takeaway from this is that Jesus loves you and offers you peace and rest, and you can go to him because of that.

So Jon and I are about to continue the conversation. We're going to talk more about the posture of Christ and even the disposition of God toward us, even in thinking about how God has adopted sinners into his own family. He has not given us a spirit of fear, but rather a spirit of adoption through which we call Him Father now—which is mind blowing in and of itself. That podcast that we're about to record as an additional podcast we do each week called Semper Reformanda. That is for people who have become Semper Reformanda members who have partnered with Theocast to see this message of the sufficiency of Christ spread as far and wide as possible. If you're curious about that podcast and you want to know how you can get access to it, you could go over to our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com, and find out more there about Semper Reformanda and what that means. We've got an app, a community that's being built of people, just like you, who are learning; just like Jon and I are still learning about what it means to rest in Christ. We can lock arms together virtually or in geographical groups and all these kinds of fun things that are going on. So go over to the website and check that out.

Jon Moffitt: I just want to add, if you want to have a conversation like Justin and I just had about this, then that's what the app is for. It allows you to connect with other people and talk like Justin and I just did.

Justin Perdue: So avail yourselves of all of that, and you can get that information at the website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. For those of you who may not be heading over to SR, Jon and I will talk to you again, Lord willing, next week in this format. For the SR members, we will have another conversation with you in just a moment. See you.

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### Faith Never Saved Anyone

*Published: August 4, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/faith-never-saved-anyone*
*Tags: Faith Alone, Sola Fide*

Here's a controversial statement: Faith never saved anybody. While that may sound shocking to many Christians, it's true. Faith doesn't save sinners; Jesus does. Faith is simply the means through which the merit and work of Christ are applied to us. Jon and Justin talk about the confusion that exists in the church today and how we tend to place our faith in things that don't save.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin encourage the listener who has struggled with assurance and who is now being told he/she is an antinomian or a hyper-grace advocate. The guys also talk obedience under the sufficiency of Christ.  
  
Resources:  
[Our podcast on "Dying with Dignity"](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/dying-with-dignity/)  
[Justin's sermon on Genesis 12:10-14:24](https://covbap.org/sermons/faith-fear-and-gods-faithfulness-genesis-1210-1424/)  
  
Book Giveaway: ["Putting Amazing Back into Grace" by Michael Horton](https://amzn.to/3CgOSGc)  
  
https://youtu.be/BMHimsDL5sk  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, here's our topic: _Faith Never Saved Anyone_. I know it sounds controversial and it actually is. Justin and I are going to do our best to show you from a biblical and historical perspective what actually saves you—and it's not your faith. Stay tuned.  
  
At times we like to pick very punchy topics, but this one is a very significant and very important topic because of how much it impacts people's day-to-day life, their choices of churches, and how they interact with Christ. We're going to talk about the three different ways faith has been used within the history of evangelicalism and even within Scripture, and then present for you the biblical and historically Reformed perspective as it relates to our faith.  
  
We're going to start with examining how, in the last 300 years more prevalently, it has influenced the United States, and now broadly, even the world, that we put our faith into our faith—the idea that we have belief in something that gives us the confidence and the assurety that God is good with me, that I can be justified, and that at the end of my life all will be fine because I have faith.  
  
So, Justin, why is it a problem theologically and biblically to say that my faith is what saves me?  
  
Justin Perdue: The thing that we're really answering today is if somebody were to ask you how you know that you're saved, how you know you'll be finally saved, how you know that you'll make it to heaven, or however you want to frame that question. That's essentially what we're trying to wrestle with today. You just highlighted one of the answers that's given. I would say that this is probably the very common answer amongst the average evangelical Christian in America: you know you're safe when you have faith. That's the answer. In one sense, you are offering faith as the thing that would save you. Or if you were to stand hypothetically—and this is taking some liberty with the illustration and we're going to do this throughout—if you're standing before the judgment seat and you're being asked on, what basis should you be admitted into heaven, the answer on the part of many evangelical Christians would be, "Well, I believe." And we're going to unpack this more throughout this episode.  
  
Dear friends, saints who are listening to this episode, if your answer to the question on what basis should you be admitted into heaven begins in the first person, you've gotten it wrong. If it begins with, "I have done anything," including, "I believe," that's not the right answer.  
  
Jon, I think it might be good for us to go ahead and lay our cards on the table quickly and then continue to unpack this. So, our answer to that question, biblically speaking, of "On what basis would we be admitted into heaven? On what basis are we reconciled to God?" The answer is Jesus. Period. He is it. That's why we're saying faith has never saved anybody; Jesus saves sinners and faith is the means through which the work of Christ is applied to us. We're going to think more about that throughout this episode and we're trying to get at it in several different ways.  
  
The issue here, Jon, as I look at this, in answering this question, not only are you placing confidence in something that is related to you that is somewhat subjective in that sense, it just does not hold even biblically. I know immediately there are objections that always get raised to this. We even get this on our social media sometimes. People say, "What about like Luke 7 when Jesus looks at the woman of the city and says, 'Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.'" We would respond to that by saying that the woman in that account comes to Christ in a Pharisee's home. It's very clear that she has no confidence in anything pertaining to her. She has no righteousness on which she's going to stand, she's not confident in herself in any way and is casting herself completely upon Christ as the one who can save her. So, it's clear that the one who she is trusting is the one who does the saving. It is not her faith that does that. Faith, even in that account, is simply the means through which Christ's saving work would be applied to her.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Throughout all of the book of John, Jesus calls people to believe in him. Literally in John 6, they say, "Make it plain that you are the Messiah." And he says, "I've already given you all the evidence, but you don't believe in me." That was his point. It's not faith in general. He is proving to them that he is the source of their justification, or he is the source of their hope into the Kingdom. This even goes back to the rich young ruler when he walks up to Jesus, the one he should be trusting, and asks, "What must I do to be saved?" What he's saying is, "What can I trust to get what I want?" And Jesus says, "I'm standing right here, and the fact that you don't know that is the answer that you need." So, he tries to crush the man who trusts in himself. The man literally starts with, "I'm trusting this so far. What else do I need to trust? I have obeyed the law." In the end, Jesus sends him away because he's unwilling to trust Jesus. It's not faith in your faith. The way I would reword this, and this is going to sound heretical, and maybe we can kind of work it out, but the way I would say it is that faith is the evidence of your salvation. Because I am saved by Jesus, therefore I believe. So, you're resting in the sufficiency of Jesus to hold on to you; you are not resting in the sufficiency of holding on to Jesus. Because Jesus saved me, therefore I believe that he is sufficient to carry me home. This is what Paul says: he who began a good work in you will complete it. Where are we putting our faith? In Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's good to mention where this comes from in the contemporary evangelical movement. You had a lot of people back in the eighties or so who began to articulate things like this, where there was a good motivation to emphasize the freeness of the gospel. But then what ended up happening was it was kind of a hyper Arminian, very man-centered approach to this whole thing. You had Zane Hodges from Dallas Theological Seminary, famously in his book _Absolutely Free_, begins to articulate what is necessary is to have this one moment where you make this decision of faith, it's this one act of faith, and then at that point, based upon that act, a person is secure forever. That's where you get this language of "once saved, always saved" in this mechanical sense. What is the basis of that "once saved, always saved"? It was that one act, that decision of faith that you made at that one point, and you're looking back to that as the ground of your assurance before God. That is problematic because then in that view, what ends up happening—and where Zane Hodges went with this—is that once you've made that one decision of faith, it really doesn't matter what happens after that. It doesn't even matter if you continue believing. It's kind of crazy the way that it goes. I think that's the greatest example that we could give of placing faith in your faith, or placing faith in one decision that you made, as the ground of your hope before the Lord and the ground of your reconciliation to Him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The problem starts with—and this is where the whole Lordship thing came out—the gospel that's being presented. The good news is not this. The good news is Jesus Christ saves sinners and presents them as righteous by his own obedience. What they're hearing is, "If you say this prayer, you can be saved," or, "If you dedicate yourself, you can be saved." It's like you're the acting agent in salvation; the gospel is Jesus is the acting agent in salvation.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think one of the reasons why it's so damaging is that if you're putting faith in your faith and yeah, and faith is this one decision you made or this act of faith that you do, effectively, what you're saying is that faith is a work that you accomplish. You're saying that you are capable of mustering up faith, and that faith that you have produced is what is your confidence—and that's a really big dilemma.  
  
What I would want to say to those individuals who are going to say, "Well, I believe in Jesus, and that is the basis of my admittance into heaven," I assume that if you're like every other person I know in that your faith—pick your descriptor: the strength of it, the quality of it, the consistency of it, the vitality of it, the fervor of it, etc.—that ebbs and flows not only by the year or the day, but by the moment sometimes. If your confidence is based in something so subjective, like how you feel about Christ or how strong your faith is in this moment, how in the world could you ever have peace? And the answer to that is, if you're saying and you're objectively assessing it, you couldn't.  
  
Jon Moffitt: People put faith in all kinds of things that have no reality to them. I've met people who have all kinds of beliefs and things but there's no reality to their faith. They believe strongly in it, but they cannot place a reality connected to their faith. You're asking this question, Justin: how is it that you can go from condemned to child, from unrighteous to righteous? Faith is not what does that. Jesus doesn't look at you and go, "Oh, you believe that can happen? Therefore, it's yours." No, there has to be a substance; there has to be a key access. For instance, just because I believe a plane can take me from point A to point B doesn't mean that the plane actually does it until the plane actually takes me from point A to point B. Faith doesn't make the plane fly; the plane does. So, Jesus is the one who saves and sanctifies and presents us as righteous. I know it sounds nuanced, but it is important because in the end, when I stand before God and He lets me into His Kingdom as His child, it has nothing to do with me and it has everything to do with what Christ did on my behalf. We reword faith and almost say it's an acceptance. Do you accept the reality that without Jesus, you cannot be saved? Yes. I accept that. Do you accept the reality that without Jesus' obedience, you cannot be seen as righteous? Yes. I accept that reality. Then you are given all the benefits of Christ; faith is acceptance, it's not doing.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's not acceptance, it's receiving. I would say it's also trusting. The real question at the heart of the matter is who are you trusting? What are you trusting? Are you trusting in your faith? Are you trusting in something about you? Or are you trusting in Christ in his sufficiency? And that is where we're headed with this whole thing.  
  
I want to go ahead and introduce this now, Jon. I think people need to understand, and this is related to putting faith in faith and even faith being a work, that in the immediate aftermath of the Reformation, you had rightly a lot of people preaching and emphasizing faith over and against works to the extent that even back in the day—and I think this happens even in our context too, which is what we're highlighting here—people made such a big deal about faith that it began to sound like faith was a work that we do that then reconciles us to God. It was even to the extent that Roman Catholic theologians responded to the Protestant Reformation. Some of them even drew the conclusion, "We see that you, like us, believe in salvation by works. You just have a different set of works. Yours is faith; ours is this other stuff," in terms of the sacraments and the like, "but we all believe in salvation by works." This is where Luther, Calvin, and the Reformers had to make great effort and take great pains to demonstrate that faith, first of all, was purely a gift from God, biblically speaking, and that it was not faith itself that saved anyone, but it was the object of our faith, namely Jesus, who saved us, and that faith was simply the means through which the righteousness and the suffering and the satisfaction made for sins by Christ are applied to sinners. Historically, this has happened before, and we, like the Reformers and the Protestants through history, need to be careful that we articulate this in ways that are accurate biblically and don't turn faith into a work that we do that saves, but rather see faith as the means through which the work of Christ is applied to us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Quoting here Romans 10 real quick—just so you can hear it in Paul's words. He's talking about the legitimacy of what's backing your faith, and he's even using this illustration. Romans 10:6: "Righteousness based on faith." Then he even says in verse nine, "Because, if you confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord," where is he pointing? The object of your faith. He says you're pointing it to the reality of who Jesus is. I believe Jesus is Lord, and he's saying that's the evidence or that's what saves you. "And believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved." So, the faith is in the object of Jesus and what he did. I love that about Romans 10\. We always use that verse as having to say it with your mouth in order to be saved and you miss the point. Faith is in who Jesus is and what he did—that's what saves you; not the actual faith in itself. Just having faith.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's very clear that the presentation of the Scriptures is that it's the righteousness of God, it's the righteousness of Christ that's being counted to sinners and faith is a means. Think about Romans 1:17, think about Ephesians 2:8-10, think about Philippians 3:7-9\. It's very clear that it's somebody else's righteousness, namely the very righteousness of God, in Romans 3:21-22, that is received by faith. So, it's not faith itself that God counts to us as our righteousness; it is the righteousness of Jesus counted to us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And it's evidenced by faith.  
  
Justin Perdue: Let's move on to the next. We dealt with placing faith in faith, which is a very broad evangelical issue. Now we want to speak more to an issue that would be more prominent amongst Calvinistic or Reformed-ish evangelicals.  
  
This would be, as you put it before we recorded, if the first one is faith in our faith, this category would be many people putting faith in our faithfulness. The answer here would be something along the lines of on what basis should you be admitted into heaven. And you would begin to point to your obedience, you would begin to point to your discipline and your faithfulness. Because I understood these things, I believe these things, I did this stuff that then demonstrated and validated my faith. That's the argument—that you need to prove the legitimacy of your trust in Jesus through what you do.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. This is probably a subject that we handle all the time in Theocast. It's definitely a tricky situation. We're going to be a little bit more pointed in and try to be very nuanced and careful here. There's a kind of a razor's edge here and it feels like we can get pushed off onto either side. We are going to try to be as scripturally relevant here as we can, because what people end up hearing is that obedience isn't necessary, and that is by no means Reformed, confessional, or biblical in any shape at all.  
  
Obedience is a consequence. It's what's going to happen. Even Ezekiel says, "I'll pull out your heart of stone and I'll put it in a heart of flesh and will cause you to walk in my ways." Obviously, Christians who have the Spirit's power in them are going to obey.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm thinking of a bunch of Scripture passages: Romans 6—union with Christ, we've been delivered from the dominion of sin, we become obedient from the heart; Romans 8—we're being conformed into the image of Christ; Romans 12—we're being renewed in our minds. All of these things are our reality as a result of union with Christ by faith. Of course, like you just said, because we have been fundamentally changed and united to Christ and his Spirit is now at work in us, he is going to change us and that is going to result in good works and obedience. And we, along with the Reformed and the orthodox of all time, see that as a necessary consequence of saving faith and a necessary consequence of salvation. The problem is—and you said this so many times, Jon, and I agree with you—the problem is this kind of "prove it" mentality that exists out there because you start to try to make the stream flow uphill and you invert the relationship by saying, "Prove that you're saved by what you do." You actually can't do that; you have to be saved first and then the fruit is born. And when you invert the relationship, we got all kinds of problems.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We've gone from one side to the other, right. We are saved by our faith, now we're being saved by our faithfulness—which no one would say in the conservative Calvingelical world. To be fair, that is what ends up leading people down that road, because what is the basis foundation? Where are they resting? What's fueling their assurance? And what's fueling your assurance is the evidence of fruit in your life. Often, I would even say, it's not fruits of the Spirit, it's fruit of Christianism that's been handed down to us. As crazy as this sounds, the moment you say the desire to read your Bible daily is the evidence of your salvation and the ground of your assurance, I'm sorry, but that can't be it because your desires for anything are going to ebb and flow up and down. This is why Paul talks about the war against the flesh and the Spirit against the flesh: we are going to have our desires that go up and down. Even if you were to say you don't desire Jesus above everything else every single moment of every single day, you should not have assurance, again, you are saying the ground of your salvation—that which justifies you before God—is based upon either your actions or your emotions or your level of dedication. This is why in the Baptist world that I grew up in, the call to rededication was so relevant because it was like they were saying, "You should question whether you're good with God. You should question whether God is going to save you because look at your life. You're not fully dedicated to Him." we would have these rededication services to the point where some would even get rebaptized—Justin, you know this world—because your assurance level dropped so low that it was like they were doing a re-up on the membership here just to make sure that all things are good. And when you are looking to dedication or faithfulness as the ground of your assurance, then you have a massive problem. This is why so many people who listen to Theocast contact us and say, "For the first time in my life, I feel like I truly have assurance because I am not looking to a prayer on one side, or I'm not looking to my faithfulness on the other side because prayer and faithfulness never saved anyone."  
  
Justin Perdue: Certainly, this whole premise of walking the aisle, praying a prayer, and making a decision one time, saving someone—that is foreign to the Scriptures. This other thing of the emphasis on your disciplines and your faithfulness and the fruit in your life, and basically pointing people to that to know that they're saved, is a hopeless endeavor. I've said this recently, I think, but I'm going to go and say it again: none of us on our deathbeds will ever be comforted by our obedience. You know why? Because all of us who have been united to Christ and who have been given a new heart and a new spirit, who are actually tender in our consciences and want to obey, we will reflect back on our lives and we will be hyper aware, I trust, of how we could've done so much more. We could have obeyed so much more. We could have sinned so much less. You can't comfort someone with that because we are imperfect at best, even in our obedience, and our sincerity and how we feel about obeying ebbs and flows. So, if we're being pointed to that, not to encourage us—we agree with the confessions and the Scriptures that we can have our assurance bolstered by being shown the change in our lives—but if you're being pointed to that as how you know and on what basis should you be admitted into heaven? "Well, I've got these good works to prove that I'm legit." That is assurance robbing and peace destroying. Many saints have been wrecked by that, even in our modern context.  
  
This, in my mind, is bad Puritan theology where there is an overemphasis on moral transformation. The gospel is assumed. Of course, Christ is preached and all that, but that's in the backdrop. It's the background and really, the focus is now on the Christian's life, disciplines, obedience, performance, and the like.  
  
If we begin to answer the question of on, what basis should you be admitted into heaven in the first person in any way, we are wrong. If it's our faith, our obedience, or the fact that we persevere to continue, brother, sister, you're looking in the wrong spot.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To be clear, I want to go back and say this. I feel like people misquote me and Theocast quite often. I think Christians should and must be very disciplined in their lives as it relates to their sin and their actions, and I would even say, as it relates to the Word of God, because God's Word and God's people point us to the one who is saving us, and the more disciplined and dedicated we can be to focusing our attention on the substance of our salvation, the stronger our faith and obedience can and should be.  
  
Justin, I know you're about to get to this here in this illustration you're going to use: the emphasis is put on your faithfulness, but the emphasis has to be put on Christ and his faithfulness. This is 1 John when it says what we are, we are not yet. But we, in anticipation of this, we purify ourselves as he is pure. The looking to is Christ, not to our faithfulness. I know people can feel like we're being nuanced here, but I will tell you the flip on this: the difference between rest and no rest. You can rest seeking obedience, disciplining yourself, understanding the benefits of living a godly life, and loving those and giving grace, mercy, patience, and longsuffering, resting in the reality that it's Jesus' sufficiency that brings me home. Or you can pursue godliness and all of these other things as they ebb and flow, go up and down; as they do, so does your assurance, and so does your emotional dryness because you're trying to find comfort in yourself and in your self-sacrificing, and it cannot be found. This is why Paul says, "I am," present tense, "the greatest sinner I know." And where does he find his hope? In the sufficiency of Jesus.  
  
Justin Perdue: He does, which is where we're turning.  
  
The title of the episode, _Faith Never Saved Anyone_, is an entirely true statement. Faith does not save sinners; Jesus does. Faith, as we've been saying this whole podcast, is simply a vehicle, or a conduit, or a means—whatever word you want to use. It is the object of our faith that is the one in whom we trust who saves us. Even our confession and the ways that it will outline what saving faith is—it is receiving resting and trusting in Christ alone for salvation for all of it: justification, sanctification, and glorification. It is as 11.1 in the 1689 points out with respect to justification. It's not that God infuses righteousness into us, but He pardons our sins and accounts us as righteous. How? He does it for Christ's sake alone, not for anything produced in us or done by us. He doesn't count faith itself, the act of believing, or any other obedience to us as our righteousness. Instead, God credits; He imputes. Christ's active obedience to the law and passive obedience in his death is our whole and only righteousness by faith—and that is a beautiful definition of what justification looks like, and even of what saving faith looks like, and that's what we're trying to outline and articulate here today.  
  
What we want to do now is continue to unpack this Reformed answer to the question, "On what basis should we be admitted into heaven?" The answer is Jesus. Period. There's nothing else to say. He is the one who has saved us, and we look outside of ourselves always to him as the ground of our assurance and peace before God.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I know you mean this, but not just Jesus, the good teacher, or Jesus, the good person—it's Jesus, the replacement for our sins; the substitute; Jesus, the righteous one; Jesus, the intermediary, the one who intercedes for us; Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah. That's the one who saves you. Just to be clear.  
  
Justin Perdue: Like I said, from our confession, it's his obedience to the whole law—so his righteous life—and its obedience in his death in which he paid for our sins, took the punishment we deserve as law breakers. It's all of that counted to us so that we are not only viewed by God as though we have never sinned, we are also viewed as having all of the obedient works of Jesus credited to our account. It's phenomenal news—and faith is the means by which all of that is applied to wretches such as we.  
  
A few illustrations by teachers that most people that are listening to this podcast will probably have heard of, and these are really, really good and helpful. So, the first is Tim Keller. Keller has given an illustration at multiple points to demonstrate how it is God and His promises that saves sinners, grounded in what Jesus has done. So, he says to envision the Exodus where the people of Israel are going to be crossing through the Red Sea. This is an insane event where God miraculously parts the waters. Can you imagine what it would have been like to walk through on the floor of the Red Sea with these, we presume, walls of water on either side. You're being pursued by the Egyptian army. Keller will rightly point out that you have to assume that there would have been people in that mass of Israelites walking through the Red Sea who would have felt all kinds of different ways about this event. Some of them would have been super confident in God and in Moses, their leader: "Here we go. God is going to deliver us." And then there would have been some, no doubt, who would have been scared out of their minds. But as Keller points out rightly, both those who were confident and those who were terrified made it through to the other side. Why? Because God was their deliverer. It was not about them and their confidence; it was about God and His faithfulness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Again, it's the substance of what saved them. Obviously, they had to believe. And how do we know that they believed?  
  
Justin Perdue: They walked.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. That's such a good illustration.  
  
Justin Perdue: Another one. This one's excellent. Don Carson. So, he presents this hypothetical conversation between two Israelites the night the Passover's going to go down. God has said He's going to come through the land of Egypt and kill all the firstborn. He has instructed His people as to what they are to do and how they're to make this meal, kill a lamb, make this meal and eat it in haste, put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts of their house, and God's going to pass over that household. Carson paints this picture of two men having a conversation about all this. One of them is absolutely losing his mind. He's like, "I just don't know about all this. I'm scared. I don't know how this is going to go down. What are we supposed to do? How is this going to go down for us?" And the other man responds, "What are you talking about? The Lord has told us everything that we need to know. We can have complete confidence in what He has told us. We just need to do this with the lamb, and we need to put the blood on the doorposts and all this. Everything's going to be fine." And he's super confident. The other guy goes, "Oh my gosh. Yeah, I guess I'm going to go do that. But I just don't know. I just don't know how this is going to go down." So that happens. The one man in confidence goes and does the thing and the other man with a lot of doubt and fear and trepidation goes and does the thing. And then this question: whose house was visited by the angel of death that night? Neither. Why? Because the issue in terms of God passing over the house did not hinge upon the quality of the faith of the people; it hinged upon the quality of the promises and the One who made the promises; it hinged on His character, that the Promise Giver is the Promise Keeper, and it is His nature and His character that carries the day. It's not how the people felt and how much confidence they have.  
  
This last one has been circulating around social media lately and it's so good. So, Alistair Begg is a preacher known to some, maybe known to many. There's a clip two minutes long of him giving a message. He begins by saying some really helpful things about that first and third person stuff, about how, if you were to die and you stand before the proverbial judgment seat, you're asked on what basis you should be admitted into heaven. If you begin to answer in the first person, he says we're wrong. It must be answered in the third person because he has done these things, not because I believe, not because I obey, not because I continued.  
  
And then he gives the illustration of the thief on the cross—and he takes some liberty with these things, but the point is still made. The thief on the cross, as people know, was cursing Jesus, and Jesus said some wonderful things to him, and this man ends up trusting in Christ and clearly taking Jesus at his word, where Jesus even looks at him and says, "Today you'll be with me in paradise." Begg paints the picture of this man standing before the judgment seat, and there's the angel there—again, he takes liberty—and the angel asks this man, "On what basis are you here?" And the thief says, "I don't know." "What do you mean you don't know?" "It means, I don't know." So, this angel gets very frustrated and goes and gets his supervisor angel, who then comes to question the thief. And this supervisor angel asked the thief and he said, "Okay, tell me what you know about the doctrine of justification by faith." And the thief says, "I've never heard of it in my life." So, he says, "Okay, let's then go to the doctrine of Scripture immediately. Let's talk about that." And it's just crickets. Nothing. So even the supervisor angel is now frustrated with the thief and, and he says, "Okay, on what basis are you here?" And the thief looks at him and says, "Well, because the man on the middle cross told me I can come." Even as he gives the message, the air is let out of the room and everybody's like, "Amen, brother." You know as a Christian, as someone acquainted with your own sin, you're like, "That is right." Because that is the only way that we could ever have peace: because Christ has told me, on the basis of his unshakeable life and on the basis of his death in my place, he has told me that I can come, and he has secured that for me. That's good news. How did this shake out for the thief? He was cursing him one minute and now he's in paradise. Why is he there? Because Jesus told him he could come.  
  
Jon Moffitt: "I have come to seek and to save sinners." And the thief on the cross is a great example of a sinner. "I've come to seek and to save the lost." Not those who have found their way, but those who have lost their way. It is so counter self-righteousness so that none of us may boast.  
  
Justin Perdue: Why is it that we can be confident? Not only because of what Jesus did for us while he was on earth, but like we talked about in a podcast recently, he has ascended to the heavens and sits at the right hand of God and intercedes for his own—all of us. He's able to save us to the utmost. He advocates for us when we sin. His word stands. He's telling us, "Those of you who have trusted in me, you can come. I am the one who guarantees that. I am the guarantor of the new covenant. I'm the mediator here and what I say goes." The one in whom we trust, the object of our faith, is our confidence. It's not our faith. It's not our obedience. It's Christ and what he's done for us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One last illustration before we go over to our next podcast. The disciples are in a locked room. They're afraid the Jews might find them. Mary’s already told him, "Hey, Jesus is alive," but they still haven't figured it out yet. These are cowards. Peter has rejected Jesus three times and knows he's ashamed of it. Then Jesus appears in the room and the first word out of his mouth is "Peace be unto you." And he goes back to quote Jeremiah where he says the prophets are proclaiming peace when there is no peace, because Israel is in the absolute rejection of God. And he says, "You are unwilling to repent." These men who are in the room, not repenting, and Jesus appears before them and says, "Peace be unto you." I love what John says: he showed them the scars on his hand and his side. The substance of their peace was Jesus' death on the cross. My goodness. That's something you should believe in.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen. It's Christ's gentle posture toward them as a gentle and lowly Savior. "Peace to you. Let me show you, my scars. My scars are your salvation."  
  
Jon Moffitt: "By his wounds, we are healed." Not by our faithfulness, not by our faith, not by our obedience.  
  
We're going to continue this conversation in our family time. It's where we gather together to talk about how we take this message and move it out into the world to encourage each other to ask hard questions. This is called Semper Reformanda. It's a two-part ministry: we do a podcast every week right after this one to continue the conversation, and then we continue that conversation in local and online groups on our app. You could go in there and join the conversation, whether it's in the Tavern or in a local and online group. So, if you want to learn more about that, listen to the podcast, join the group. You can go to Theocast.org, and we would love to have you there.  
  
Justin let's go ahead and head over to the other podcast. We'll see you guys all next week.

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### When the Faithful Falter

*Published: July 28, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/when-the-faithful-falter*
*Tags: Struggle with sin*

Often in Scripture, the faithful falter. For example, Abraham is called "the man of faith" by Paul, and he is upheld as the model of justification by faith in all of the Bible. Yet, he sold his wife into defilement and adultery--twice. Or, consider the disciples. In the aftermath of Jesus' death and resurrection, they are hiding together in a room, terrified. What do we make of these things?

Semper Reformanda: The guys talk about preaching the Old Testament--and in particular, preaching on the lives of Old Testament saints. What are better and worse ways to do that? What are some common objections raised against redemptive-historical preaching?

Scripture references:  
Genesis 12:10-20  
John 20:19-23

Resources:  
[Justin's sermon: Faith, Fear, and God’s Faithfulness | Genesis 12:10-14:24 ](https://covbap.org/sermons/faith-fear-and-gods-faithfulness-genesis-1210-1424/)[Jon's sermon: John 20:19-23 – When Jesus Says “Peace”](https://gracereformed.org/sermons/john-2019-23-when-jesus-says-peace/)

Giveaway:[ "Night Driving" by Chad Bird](https://amzn.to/3i6xNa8)

https://youtu.be/R1gv7\_4ZnSg

**Podcast Transcript**

Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we're going to talk about when the faithful falter. For example, Abraham is called by the apostle Paul "the man of faith", and he is upheld as the model of justification by faith in all the Bible. Yet this is a man who, on two different occasions, sold his wife out to defilement and adultery. What do we do with that? Even the disciples, as they are sitting in a room, huddled up together, terrified in the aftermath of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection—what do we do with that account? Why are passages like this in the Bible? That's what John and I are going to have a conversation about today. We hope that you leave this episode being encouraged in the faithfulness of the Lord Jesus Christ and how he has you and has saved you. So stay tuned.

The title of the episode, everybody has seen it, is _When the Faithful Falter_. Why this topic today? I'm preaching through Genesis. This past Sunday Was in Genesis 12:10 and following all the way through the end of chapter 14\. One piece of that section of Genesis is Abraham and Sarai in Egypt. Many may know that that's the first of two situations where Abraham effectively sells his wife out to defilement, basically motivated by selfishness, self-preservation, and fear. Abraham, of course, has held up as the man of faith and the model of justification by faith in all of Scripture, but it's quite clear that his faith faltered at points. In other words, his faith was like ours.

And then Jon, you are preaching through John's gospel. Where were you this past Sunday?

Jon Moffitt: This is the disciples hiding in a room with the door locked. This is right after Jesus' resurrection. He meets Mary, and John's gospel sends Mary off to go tell the disciples that he is going to their God and to their Father. Then Jesus appears in the room. From the moment of Jesus' arrest in the garden to the moment that Jesus is standing there in that room, you don't see the strong disciples who said, "We'll go with you anywhere. We'll die for you." All you see is the constant faltering of the disciples. We're going to take both the New Testament and the Old Testament and show how the narrative seems to be the same.

Justin Perdue: Totally. So this is going to be a conversation about Genesis; it's going to be a conversation about John. And then we'll probably talk a little bit about redemptive-historical preaching, and that's probably where we're going to go in the SR portion, maybe in more detail. So get ready. If you like Genesis and John, today's podcast is for you.

Let's start out in the book of Genesis. If you have a Bible near you and you want to look along, you totally can. It's Genesis 12:10-20\. We're not going to go verse by verse or anything, but if you want to read the account that we're talking about, that's where you can find it.

Basically the situation is there's a famine in the land where Abraham is, and that famine drives him into Egypt to find food. This is going to happen again with Abraham's descendants as we know. Jacob and his children are going to go down into Israel as well. Kind of cool how those patterns repeat themselves over and over again in redemptive history, but that's another podcast for another day.

So as Abraham is driven down into Egypt for food, he's faced with a decision. Because he's going down there as a sojourner, which means that he doesn't have rights, he doesn't have legal recourse, he doesn't have protection in those ways. He's vulnerable as a Sojourner and he knows that. So as they're going down into the land of Egypt, Abraham says to his wife, "Okay, look, you're a beautiful woman. When the Egyptians see you, they're going to notice that. And they're going to want to get rid of me because you're so beautiful. They're going to want to eliminate me from the equation so that they can do with you what they want to do."

Jon Moffitt: At what point do you think she's thinking, "Aww. This is a great compliment." And then she goes, "Oh, he's being real. He's being serious."

Justin Perdue: He's like, "For real, for real." Basically, he says this: they'll kill me, but they'll let you live. So in verse 13, he pitches the plan. This is what he says: "Say you are my sister, that it may go well with me because of you, and that my life may be spared for your sake." So it's very straightforward in terms of what his plan is and what his hopes are. Because Sarai is beautiful, she is going to tell them that she's not Abram's wife—she is his sister—so now they will treat Abram well Because of that. And in verses 14-16, that's exactly what happens. They go into the land of Egypt and it all unfolds according to Abram's plan. (I'm using Abraham and Abraham interchangeably—forgive me for doing that. The studious amongst us will know that he is not called Abraham until Genesis 17.)

Verses 14 to 16, the Egyptians see that Sarai is beautiful when they enter into the land. And then the princes of Pharaoh commend her to Pharaoh, Pharaoh takes her into his house to be his wife. He treats Abram well—verse 16, "And for her sake he dealt well with Abram," and gives him a bunch of stuff. It's all working out according to Abram's plan.

But then in verse 17 is where it really takes a very interesting turn. We read that the Lord afflicts Pharaoh's house on account of Sarai because of the defilement, the adultery that's going on. Then Pharaoh, in verse 18, approaches Abram. It's wild. This whole scenario is insane in how it unfolds. In this account, it's almost as though Pharaoh is set up as the one who is the righteous man and Abram is the one who is the selfish liar. So Pharaoh confronts Abram in verse 18, "What is this that you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? Why did you say, 'She's my sister,' so that I took her for my wife?" In other words, he wouldn't have done that if he had known that she was married to Abram. "Here is your wife; take her and go." And Pharaoh gave men orders concerning him and they sent him away with his wife and all that he had.

This is a remarkable account because Pharaoh is very upright in the way that he deals with Abraham here. When he finds out about the adultery, not only does he stop the adultery, he doesn't continue, but he confronts Abraham and even rebukes Abraham for lying about it all. He doesn't kill Abraham, which would have not been uncommon, and he had been giving a bunch of stuff to Abraham because of Sarah and he doesn't demand any of that stuff back; he lets Abraham keep it all. Then he sends them away out of the country and gives orders to his men to make sure they get out safely. He is kind and merciful and all these things. It's like the Pharaoh is more concerned for Sarah's welfare than Abraham is. It is not Abraham's finest day; he does not handle this in an exemplary manner. That's very clear.

Let me just say this at the outset before we riff on this. Disclaimer—we've got to do this because we don't want to be misunderstood: sin is wrong and sin is destructive; it ruins lives; we ought to flee from it; we ought to pursue righteousness. Nothing that we are about to say excuses, sin in any way. We are just going to have an honest conversation about the nature of life in this fallen world and the fact that God's people still sin—sometimes heinously. What can we learn from these kinds of accounts about God, about ourselves, and about His ways with us? That's the question.

Jon Moffitt: There you go. You have to make the observation that Abraham is one of the few men who had the privilege of speaking with the Lord, he has conversations with Him. We do know that Abraham believes in God. What his theology is at this point, I don't know. Obviously, if Pharaoh knows what he's doing is wrong, Abraham knows what he's doing is wrong. So let's just get this clear: it's obvious Abraham knows what he's doing is wrong and yet fear is what seems to be his reason.

Justin Perdue: Yeah. Self-preservation. Selfishness.

Jon Moffitt: Fear and selfishness seem to be his motivation. It's a random story. Let's just think about the narrative here for a moment: we understand that the story of the Bible is the unfolding redemption of sinners by Christ. What did this really add to the unfolding story of the redemption of Jesus Christ? We know that Abraham is in the line of Christ's seed. It's from Abraham we get to the Messiah. Why did the Holy Spirit find it necessary to put that in there? I think it's very important because every word, according to Paul to Timothy, is profitable for reproof, for instruction, and in doctrine. I'm going to say very clearly for reproof, instruction, in doctrine, and for holiness; it's obvious to see that men who are often raised to be faithful are the ones who Scripture describes as faltering. So if you want to talk about the faithful one, we're going to have to point to Christ. But in this narrative, I can see very clearly why the Holy Spirit put this in here because one of the most famous important men in bringing us the Messiah faltered—not once, but multiple times.

Justin Perdue: Some observations here. What I said before I do think matters in terms of a pattern for Israel, because Abraham is going down into Egypt, has dealings with Pharaoh, is brought out by God into the promised land, and Israel will be, too. But I agree with you. Why all the details of his failure? This is one of the things, too, that people have said about Scripture for ages—and I agree; I know you do, too. One of the things that commends Scripture in terms of its truthfulness is the fact that it does not give a flattering presentation of its major figures. This is not a flattering presentation of Father Abraham, the man who is called by the apostle Paul "the man of faith", who is the pattern for justification by faith in all of the Bible, and yet we see him doing this. I just want to be super clear: the point of none of this is that sin is no big deal. That's ridiculous. It's absolutely absurd.

Jon, I think to what you just said, the point of this is that God saves sinners, that God justifies the ungodly, and that he doesn't just save upright, likable, virtuous people. The point is that he saves wretches in need of mercy and gives us the righteousness of Christ—a righteousness that we don't deserve and could never earn. That's what he did with Abraham.

Here's the deal—and you pointed at this, too—as Christians, we all sin and some of us will commit sins as Christians that are shameful. But God will keep us through it all. People will then raise that we can't be engaged in habitual sins. We're doing something that's heinous; surely we should learn from that first experience and never do it again. People would say that about Abraham here. After this and this whole thing and how it shook out, surely he'll never do this again. Well, he does in chapter 20—and he does the same thing again. He's going to sell his wife out to defilement again. Not excusing his behavior, but the point is that he is going to fall in the same way again, yet at the end of it all, he will be finally saved on account of the righteousness of Christ—and so will we.

Now, if you hear that and—in the face of that mercy, that grace, and that love—your immediate thought is, "Oh, good. Well, we can just go sin now," I don't know that you've understood the gospel. When we are confronted with that kind of mercy and grace, and that kind of love in the face of our sin and failure, our thoughts should be, "What a God. What a Savior. What good news. I want to go out of here now, love my neighbor, and pursue righteousness because of what God has done for me."

Jon Moffitt: Outside of Christ, there are temporal consequences and there are eternal consequences. The world knows there's temporal consequences. That is why things like AA exist. People don't like the effects of sin; most don't. Look at Pharaoh; he even knows this is wrong. He said, "Why are you doing this?" To think that to promote grace is to make sin acceptable is wrong. I will say that a lot of times I encourage men in my own church to say, "Hey, look, you need to take a long, hard look at your fight against sin and realized that there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, but the temporal punishment or consequence is you don't want to go through that." Justin and I both have had to walk people through absolute shattered lives. The scars they carry with them until death are horrendous. It's disgusting.

Justin Perdue: A guy from my congregation and I were having a conversation after the service on Sunday. He was greatly affected by the sermon and the service in general. He was just astonished at thinking about Pharaoh and Abraham and all this. Abraham committed this heinous sin, yet God's going to deliver him. That's true. And at the same time, we're not told all of the details in terms of the fallout that Abraham and Sarai and everybody had to go through. And there's going to be more in subsequent chapters when he sleeps with Hagar, and then Ishmael was born, and all of those absolutely tumultuous stuff that occurs in his household as a result of that. In chapter 20, when he sells Sarai out again, we're not told about all of the fallout in terms of their lives on earth. Our lives are wrecked by sin and we ought to flee from it for the good of our neighbor, for the good of everyone who loves us and is close to us, and we ought to pursue righteousness and flee from sin because it does honor the Lord.

One thing to comment on before we leave this Old Testament section and jump into John's gospel—and we may pick up more on this later even in SR—something I said on Sunday is we would do really well to talk honestly about the lives of saints as they are described on the pages of Scripture. In other words, we would do well not to whitewash them. We ought not try to domesticate things and edit out the ugly parts in this kind of flannel board presentation of the lives of the saints. I am convinced that the Scriptures are such a tremendous gift from God to those who seek to be honest about our struggle with sin. We're able to look at texts even like this and see how Abraham, this man of faith, sinned and struggled and yet is going to be finally delivered. We are able to see something there of how the Lord will deal with us.

Are there things commendable about Abraham's life? Absolutely. We talked about some of those in our service on Sunday; we'll talk about some of those things moving forward. But there are plenty of things about his life that are not exemplary, and this is why we don't preach sermons on how to be like Abraham. We don't preach a sermon series on "Dare to be a Daniel", or "7 Ways to be Like David", or a 31-part series on the life of Jeremiah. There's a reason that we don't do that. Abraham, if he were sitting here today, would be the first to say, "Be like me? That's not a good idea." Because seriously, Jon, you and I both have a number of godly men in our congregations who have not sold their wives out to defilement for their own protection and profit.

Jon Moffitt: Nope. 30 years of marriage. Never once.

Justin Perdue: Abraham, I think, would tell us, "Look, there's really only one thing about me that you would want to imitate—and that is to believe God. Believe in the one who justifies the ungodly. Believe in Jesus, God's promised One who has saved us from our sin." Abraham's best moments were when he took God at His word.

Jon Moffitt: To defend what you're saying, let me quote Paul. In 1 Corinthians 10, he is describing the fall of Israel, and he describes a lot of falter. He says, "Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man." If you think that you don't have the same capacity to fall as they did, you better take heed. When someone says, "Well, Jon, these are examples," I'm like, "Yes. That you too can fall."

Justin Perdue: In other words, that's an example because you are just like Abraham and Abraham is just like you. You could end up doing the exact same thing that Abraham did, though you shouldn't.

I don't think it takes a lot from us to be able to look at our people and say, "You know, it's probably not good to sell your spouse out to defilement." If I need to open the Bible to convince you of that, we need to have another conversation.

Jon Moffitt: That's called "the law in our hearts".

Justin Perdue: For real. The law is written into the human heart and there's a civil use of it where, like you even said, Pharaoh is clearly aware that to commit adultery or to take another man's wife is inappropriate.

Jon Moffitt: Let's transition to John. This is going to be a slightly different perspective but the same conclusion—it's always Jesus—but let's look at it from a different perspective.

Jesus recruits these men and in this narrative, someone even argued that maybe even Mary and some other people are in this room. Obviously Thomas is not because Thomas asked to see later. But at this point, the disciples have abandoned Jesus. Peter has denied him three times. It's a mess of a story. Of course, Jesus told them this would happen. Some of the disciples here walk with Jesus and eat with him; they don't know it's him and they're trying to figure it out. Then he appears in this locked room. John describes that Jesus appears within this locked room and uses a phrase that's not uncommon: "peace be to you". It's a very common phrase.

I think John has an unbelievable sense of humor and he is very sarcastic and snarky at times, in my humble opinion. In Greek, Jesus magically appears and the words he uses are like, "Hey, guys!" To which Luke describes them as yelling out and saying, "It's a ghost!"

John describes the very next thing that makes Jesus' words come to life. It makes sense. It's not just a simple, "Hello. Peace to you." So in Jeremiah, twice Jeremiah yells out to the people—and I would never want to have to have Jeremiah's job because all he did was preach doom and gloom and wrath upon Israel—and twice he comes after them and says, "The false prophets are saying 'Peace, peace,' when there is no peace. You better beware and you better repent because if you don't, judgment's coming upon you." And of course, what ends up happening is judgment does come upon Israel and it's a mess.

Jesus walks into the room of men who have abandoned him, who are afraid of being killed because they're followers of Jesus, who are doing everything wrong. He appears before them and he says, "Peace be to you." What does John say? Immediately, he showed him his hands and his side, and then said again, "Peace be to you." Why do they now have peace with the Father? Jesus is showing them it is not their actions, it is not their faithfulness, it's not their dedication; it is his scars in his hands and in his side. He received the wrath that Jeremiah was talking about that was coming because there was no peace between God and man, and now there's peace between God and man.

This is where things are a little bit different. I want to talk about the motivation for obedience. Because in this same section, it says, "When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. And Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you.'" I love this. This is their motivation. They're all good because of Jesus. This is what he says: "'As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.'" Men who are locked in a room, afraid that they may be caught as a Jesus follower, Jesus comes in and uses what to motivate them? Not fear, not dread, not death, not warning. What does he motivate them with? "All wrath and anger and punishment has been put upon me. Here's the proof. Now I'm sending you out to finish what the Father has started." you want to talk about your motivation to obey coming from the gospel? What a point, right?

Justin Perdue: Yeah. I'm just sitting here listening to you talk about it. I'm looking at the text, I've got my Bible open over here, and it's very clear. What is it that is to drive and propel and motivate the disciples? It's peace with God that Jesus alone has accomplished.

Like you just said, all the wrath that is due sin, all of the righteous indignation that God has against all of the wickedness that all of His people have ever committed, all of his wrath against just our inherent corruption and rebellion against him and all of those things, all of His righteousness and holiness and everything that that requires, in one sense, in terms of His justice. All of these things have been poured out in full on Christ. His scars are evidence of that. It's like Romans 5:1: because we have now been justified by faith, we have peace with God because of what Christ has done. It's like what I was saying earlier: in the face of this astonishing grace and mercy, to be crushed by the Father is what we deserve, but instead Jesus was crushed for it. When we think about how we deserve that, but now we have peace and love and grace and fellowship and security and all of these things, now I get to go be part of what the Father is doing in this world through His Son.

Then the question is, "Why would we then want to go sin?" And the answer to that question is because the flesh is real. It is a reality where we are born again, we have been united to Christ, and his Spirit has taken up residence within us. And by virtue of that, we now have become obedient from the heart, we delight in God's law in our inner man, and we want to obey. Because we hear the gospel and we see how good it is, and we've considered the mercy and the privilege and all that that is ours in Christ, we want to go and love and preach Jesus, flee from sin, and pursue righteousness. Yet the flesh remains, it's real, and the flesh at times overcomes the saints. But yet the confidence that we have is that at the end of the day, Christ is victorious because he brings judgment to victory.

Jon Moffitt: Which is not a justification for sin.

Justin Perdue: No. That's a huge disconnect and a non-sequitur.

I, for the life of me, don't understand it. Because we've got to have this conversation when it comes to sin: what is your motivation to flee from sin and pursue righteousness? Is it fear? Is it dread? Is it merit? Because if you're talking in those terms, those are legal terms where you still, in some way, are thinking that you've got something to escape or something to earn before the Lord. But God has told us that Christ has handled that. So the motivation has to be something else: and it's love, peace, security, and knowing that the wrath that was due me, Jesus took it.

Jon Moffitt: As we're talking through this, there's been all kinds of failures in the last five years. My wife says it's inevitable.

Justin Perdue: It's never ending. From various theological streams.

Jon Moffitt: There's a reason why Paul says, "Take heed lest you fall," because it doesn't matter what your theological knowledge is; if you find confidence in yourself in any part of your journey with Christ, whether it be your assurance or your fight against sin, you are priming the pump for Satan to come knock you off that stool, buddy.

Justin Perdue: What causes sin? The flesh and the tempter. It's not theological positions. Granted, we care a ton about sound doctrine and theology. It's why we do this podcast. Doctrine matters a ton for our peace before the Lord and for our lives in the local church and all of those things, but good theology has never made anyone immune to sin. And sin does not directly come—in every case—from bad doctrine. It comes from the flesh and the cravings of the flesh that overcome the saints at points. It comes from the work of the enemy, even, in his is battling and waging war against us.

Jon Moffitt: Dare I say, if you have good theology, you probably have a bigger target on your back because you're doing greater work. You think about some of the things that Paul even experienced and suffered. If he wasn't preaching the gospel faithfully, he probably would have been left alone. In some ways, you're going to be targeted even more if your theology is correct. I just think it's foolish to think your theology is what makes you immune to temptation

We have things in our lives—protections and fences and gateways—because we know that our flesh is weak. We can be Abraham. We can be the disciples. This is why Paul says these are examples for us. The strongest are the ones who fall the hardest, so don't take your faith in your strength; you put it in Christ.

Justin Perdue: This is why we preach, on the one hand, our weakness and the strength and faithfulness of Christ: because it is the only hope for sinners. I imagine that every one of us have all done things that we swore we would never do, and we've all certainly thought things that terrify even us. Personally, I think that has to be true. It's true for every Christian I know, and every member of our church, our pastors included. We all see this in ourselves and realize that were it not for the grace of God, there go I. But the point of all that is, my goodness, Christ is our only hope. This is why we need the church and we need each other, and we need to be in one another's lives talking honestly about the cravings of our flesh and our battle against sin, so that we have people in our lives that can look at us and say, "That's really hard, brother, but don't go there. That will destroy you and it's going to destroy all these people who love you. It will dishonor God. That doesn't please the Lord. He has told you that's terrible. This over here is a good thing—you know that. Keep pursuing this and let me help you walk that way."

We come back to this: If we're saved not only by our faithfulness, but even by the quality of our faith, may the Lord help us. This is a little teaser for what we're going to talk about next week. We started by talking about Abraham and we mentioned how Paul calls him the man of faith and how he is held up as the model of justification by faith and Scripture. Yet his faith faltered big time at several points in his life that are recorded on the pages of holy Scripture. In light of that, I think the takeaway should be Abraham's faith is just like mine and just like yours. It isn't always strong. Sometimes it's like we can't even find it.

I said this in the sermon on Sunday, and I said this to you earlier: we need to talk honestly, and well, and accurately about faith. We ought not make too big a deal about faith itself because sometimes evangelicals, in wanting to not preach salvation by works, will emphasize salvation by faith—and that's good, but you gotta gotta be accurate about this because faith has never saved anybody. Faith in and of itself has never saved anybody. That is the conversation that we're going to have next week. It's actually something else, someone else who saves us and we'll talk about how faith relates to that.

Jon Moffitt: And what the confusion looks like.

Justin Perdue: What the confusion looks like and why it has everything to do with our assurance and our peace before God when our faith is faltering.

Jon Moffitt: In our next podcast, Justin will explain what that is. We should talk about some of the objections that we receive when it comes to Old Testament and even New Testament faltering, and how we, as Theocast, have tried to help people walk through these objections as it relates to preaching Old Testament saints.

Justin Perdue: And we may riff a little bit on Old Testament saints, redemptive-historical preaching, the "Dare to be a Daniel" kind of mentality. There could be some humor and some lightheartedness, but we hope to be helpful to the listener in trying to be precise about what we mean, and even, like you said, let's respond to some objections that are really quickly thrown at us. For example: "Would you guys never want to make moral demands of any kind?" And that is not true. We'll talk about why over on the Semper Reformanda podcast.

We're going over to the Semper Reformanda podcast, sometimes shortened to just SR. What that is a podcast for those of you who have partnered with Theocast and have joined Semper Reformanda, and you have partnered with us, not only financially, but you're supporting the ministry and wanting to be a part of this community that we are seeking to build where there are many of you who want to continue to be able to have conversations about the podcast, about this kind of theological stuff and the transitions that you're walking through, and things that you're learning. Semper Reformanda is a community being built to facilitate those conversations.

A piece of Semper Reformanda is this podcast that we record weekly alongside the regular episodes. So that's where Jon and I are headed. If you want to find out more information about SR and how you could partner with Theocast in those ways, become a part of this pretty cool community of people, and help spread the Reformation, you can find that information over at our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com

We appreciate all of you who have tuned in. We hope this has been encouraging to you. Continue to trust Christ, flee from sin, pursue righteousness.

We'll talk with you again next week.

---

### The Forgotten Part of the Gosp...

*Published: July 21, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-forgotten-part-of-the-gosp*
*Tags: Ascension, Resurrection*

What is the gospel? Rightly, many people point to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus--through which we are forgiven of sin, absolved of guilt, counted righteous, and promised to be raised from the dead. Praise God for that! But, there are parts of the gospel that tend to be left out or assumed. Jesus intercedes and advocates for us at the right hand of God. He has given us his Spirit. He reigns from the throne of God. And he is coming back for us. All of these things matter for our assurance and peace!  
  
Semper Reformanda: The guys talk pointedly about the return of Christ. We discuss the implications of this for the mission of the church, as well as why Christ's return is such good news for us.  
  
Scripture references:  
Hebrews 1:3-4, 7:23-25, 10:11-14  
1 John 2:1-2  
Romans 8:9-11, 31-34  
1 Peter 3:22  
Revelation 21:3-5  
John 5:22-27, 16, 20  
  
Resources:  
  
Sermon: [John 20:11-18 – The Missing Part of the Gospel (Jon Moffitt)](https://gracereformed.org/sermons/john-2011-18-the-missing-part-of-the-gospel/)  
  
Giveaway: ["The Gospel Driven Life" by Michael Horton](https://amzn.to/3zju3Yv)  
  
SUPPORT Theocast: [https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/ ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/)  
  
https://youtu.be/mMzJgj6EAGA  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Coming soon...

---

### A Critique of Lordship Salvation

*Published: July 14, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/a-critique-of-lordship-salvation*
*Tags: John MacArthur, Lordship Salvation*

We have gotten a number of questions regarding Lordship Salvation and the historic, reformed position on it. So, today, that is what Jon and Justin talk about. We talk about concerns over the definition of faith, the collapsing of law and gospel, and confusion on the uses of the law. We interact with John MacArthur's book, "The Gospel According to Jesus," as well as Michael Horton's "Christ the Lord."  
  
Semper Reformanda: The guys talk more on uses of the law--and how confusing the first and third use of the law is particularly damaging. Justin also offers thoughts on how some Puritan theology is unhelpful.  
  
Resources:  
Podcast:[ Law/Gospel](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction/)  
Podcast: [Are You a Legalist or an Antinomian](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/are-you-a-legalist-or-an-antinomian/)  
  
[FREE EBOOK: Safe in Christ - A primer on rest](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/primer/)  
  
Giveaway: ["Christ the Lord" by Michael Horton](https://amzn.to/3wCvMqg)  
  
SUPPORT Theocast: [https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/ ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/)  
  
https://youtu.be/rpm-qPBEuBg  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we are going to be talking about lordship salvation. Many of you have asked us questions and have even asked us to give the historic Reformed take on lordship salvation—and so that is what we are going to offer in today's episode. We hope you enjoy the conversation.  
  
Today we're talking about lordship salvation. The title of this episode is _A Critique of Lordship Salvation_. That's what we're going to be doing from a pastoral perspective. Hopefully with grace and clarity, we're going to raise some concerns that we have, as Reformed guys, with so-called lordship salvation. For many people at the pop level, at least, in the church, a figure that is most often associated with lordship salvation is John MacArthur. This podcast is not a review of John's book that's entitled _The Gospel According to Jesus_, but we will be interacting some with that content and some of the other things that MacArthur has said and written over the last 30 years or so.  
  
We will also be referencing _Christ the Lord_, which was edited by Michael Horton. There were a number of guys that contributed to that volume: Robert Godfrey, Rod Rosenbladt, Kim Riddlebarger, and others had chapters in that book. That's a response from a Reformed and confessional perspective to the lordship salvation debate that was really, really heated back in the late eighties and the nineties. Inevitably, we're going to interact with some of that material. This podcast is not a review of that material specifically. We're going to be talking about lordship salvation in a more broad way.  
  
If we were going to define it just very simply for people, lordship salvation is this conversation about the idea that you can make Jesus your Savior but not your Lord—or is it even possible for Jesus to be your Savior, but not your Lord? There's this distinction that's introduced between those two things as though he can be one or thought of as one without being the other.  
  
And of course, the argument from the lordship salvation side or John MacArthur's side, and guys and gals who agree with him, is that you cannot make Jesus Savior without also consciously making him Lord of your life. And so we're interacting with that idea and that language that's often used about submission to the lordship of Christ; what we understand that are at best confusing things that are said from that camp.  
  
Maybe we want to start by outlining the debate as it took place historically just to give people a little bit of context. In the eighties and nineties, there was a debate between John MacArthur and Zane Hodges. Zane Hodges was articulating a kind of theology. His book _Absolutely Free_ articulated this theology that a person is justified by a single act of faith. Now, Hodges is coming at this from an Arminian, semi-Pelagian perspective where he understands that human beings can make this decision of faith and this act of faith is something they can do. And so once this act of faith occurs, once this decision to believe in Jesus occurs, at one point in time, a person is justified forever. And it matters not at all what happens in a person's life thereafter—whether or not they continue believing, whether or not they are sanctified, whether or not they desire to obey God, whether or not there are good works in their life, etc. It doesn't matter because a person is justified and they're good with God.  
  
Of course there's a lot of stuff within that kind of theological schema, where if you are obedient, if you are sanctified, if you become a disciple, and you're not a carnal Christian, then there will be blessings for you in eternity and the like. But then, MacArthur's response to that bad doctrine—and we're going to talk about this more in a minute as to why Hodges' theology is bad—is that no, that is not biblical Christianity. And in fact, there is a lot demanded of us if we're going to be legitimately Christian. And so John's book, _The Gospel According to Jesus_, is his attempt to articulate what the gospel is, what the message of salvation is, and what is required of us, in one sense, if we're going to be legitimately in Christ Jesus. That's the debate as it has historically taken place. We agree that Hodges is wrong but we also have concerns with the way that MacArthur and others have articulated the gospel.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think that's a good introduction. I appreciate that. I would agree wholeheartedly with John's assessment and in a lot of conservative, dispensational, and Reformed men's assessment of that theology. It is very confusing, and I will also say dangerous, because (1) it does confuse the gospel, (2) it confuses the nature of salvation, and (3) it confuses what I would even say _sola fide_ is. He almost thinks he's promoting a _sola fide_ position, but he's not.  
  
Justin Perdue: He's undermining it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He is. Because you're putting your faith in an action, not in Christ's actions. That's the danger of this theology in that (1) it's a confusion on the gospel, and (2) it is a confusion on the nature of the Christian.  
  
Justin Perdue: And union with Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. Those who have been put in union with Christ will show the evidence of the Spirit in their life. You can't get away from passages that speak about the obedience of the Christian as being a part of the nature. May it be varying at times at different degrees, you will see the desire and the nature of a Christian to obey. So all of those critiques of this movement are accurate. We would agree and stand wholeheartedly and say that is not an accurate representation of Scripture. Not only is it not accurate, it's actually quite disturbing at times.  
  
Justin Perdue: The theology of Zane Hodges can rightly be called antinomianism. It is legitimate antinomianism.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Anti as in against obedience or anti-law.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. Like the law has no place in the life of the Christian, and it just doesn't even matter what we do. That's legitimate antinomian theology. It's actually quite rare but it was being articulated by Zane Hodges. So we agree with John MacArthur and his critique of it.  
  
Just really quickly, because we are going to be talking about MacArthur inevitably today, we want to go and say from the outset that we are grateful to God for John MacArthur and he has done a lot of good, and has been a man who has demonstrated himself to be in ministry for decades, aiming to preach the word of God faithfully. We want to commend that. And even in his book, _The Gospel According to Jesus_, just to be very clear, there've been three editions of it—there was the original, and then a significantly revised second edition, and then now a 25th anniversary edition that's been released in recent years. The book _Christ the Lord_ was interacting with the first publication of _The Gospel According to Jesus_ and raised some significant critiques. It's clear that MacArthur and his camp heard some of those critiques based upon how the second edition was revised.  
  
We say all of this too, to be clear, that as it stands today in the way that MacArthur articulates lordship salvation, in the way that he even writes _The Gospel According to Jesus_, he is not rejecting any historical Protestant Reformed doctrines outright. He's not a heretic. He even has a chapter that was added thankfully on justification, he's clear on faith alone—at least means to be clear—he'll make assertions about faith alone. We would argue that he confuses it in ways, and we're going to come to that. He's clear on God's grace versus our effort or our merit. He's even clear on the imputation of Christ's righteousness. He'll even say good things about the law, about how it was given to show us how sinful and how disobedient we are.  
  
Sadly, in other ways he's going to collapse some categories, and we're going to get to that. But we just want to be clear from the outset that this is not a roasting of John MacArthur wholesale, and we are not understanding him to be a false teacher or preaching another gospel.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to say, to that point, that we are interacting with the most recent material. It's unfair to go back and just criticize the old book. Both of us have the newest book—that's the book we interacted with.  
  
I want everyone else to also hear that we aren't foreign to John's ministry. I actually was trained and taught by him in the classroom, trained underneath his ministry while at the Master's Seminary. Justin's also very familiar with this ministry as he engaged with John on a personal level as well. We aren't foreign. A lot of times people say, "You don't understand his teaching," or, "You haven't engaged enough with his theology or his sermons." We have on a very deep level. We do not ever want to misrepresent people if we can help it. I hate strawmen. I don't want to be involved in that.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's unhelpful to our listeners, too.  
  
When I first encountered Calvinism, I was helped by John MacArthur as a young man and was grateful for him. He was always very personally kind to me as I interacted with him just through various ways over the years.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We are not a discernment ministry. The one thing that we want to do is clarify things. We want to clarify the gospel from a historical, biblical, Reformed perspective using documents and categories like law-gospel distinction, three uses of the law, confessionalism, Reformed definitions of faith. What we're really doing is taking John's writing and holding it up against what would say is historical theology and making our assessments that way.  
  
Just know that our conclusions aren't new to us. Nothing we say today is anything Justin and I have come up on our own. We are just trying to articulate it for our listeners because it has been asked.  
  
Justin, let's go ahead and jump right into some of the heart issues of this. I do want to say one thing, Justin: I really did appreciate a lot of what was written in the book. I found myself agreeing with the majority of the book when it was describing certain things about the nature of Christianity. I had to slow down and make sure that I fully understood. I didn't want to misrepresent something or take it out of context; you can always take a paragraph way out of context. In the years that I've been a part of these conversations about lordship salvation and Reformed theology, the number one thing is that people say, "You misunderstood John." That being said, Justin and I had tried to be very clear in listening and representing what he has said consistently recently about lordship salvation.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think we could begin with this because this one is going to be less significant in the more updated versions than it was in the original version of _The Gospel According to Jesus_. I don't think we'll have to spend as much time here. The way that MacArthur seeks to define faith is one thing that we would raise some issues with. Again, in the original version of _The Gospel According to Jesus_, this language was much more troubling and much more concerning, but the language has been revised in the second and the third edition, which we give thanks for, frankly, because it's better.  
  
The thing that, it seems to me, is that John MacArthur is desiring at least to weave categories of repentance, obedience, and a desire to obey into the way that we would define saving faith. Even the subtitle of the book, "What is Authentic Faith?", I think conveys that message. Originally in the first version, there were stuff that were said that were just full-blown Roman Catholic theology. That no longer exists in the more updated versions—praise God. But there is still language at points about obedience, for example, being inseparable from faith.  
  
Let me just quote from _The Gospel According to Jesus_. MacArthur writes this, "Clearly the biblical concept of faith is inseparable from obedience. Belief is treated as if it were synonymous with obey in John 3:36," and then he cites the verse. "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life." So even here in the most updated version, you do see this desire to effectively say that you can't separate obedience from faith. That's something that is concerning to us as historically Reformed guys because we understand that saving faith is comprised of the facts about Jesus' ascent, affirming that they're true, and then trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ. That's how the Reformed have always defined faith. And then even in our own confession, there's language of trusting, hoping, and resting in Christ for justification, sanctification, and glorification on account of the covenant of grace. That's how we would define saving faith. In terms of how the Reformed have defined faith, there never has been any language of obedience, or repentance, or a desire to obey as being a part of saving faith. Those things need to be kept distinct because they are.  
  
Now, we would be the first to say, as the Reformed have always said, that when saving faith is present, good works, repentance, and those other things will be present.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And we've heard this: "You guys are being petty," or, "You're splitting hairs," or, "You're misrepresenting." We're really trying not to. I say this with as much humility. John has obviously been preaching and studying God's word for a very long time. These are not our conclusions against John; these are just things that we have learned ourselves. But you can see where John will quote and admit to _sola fide_, he will say you are not saved by works alone. So he's very orthodox in his understanding of the nature of salvation. The nature of salvation is—he literally says—a sovereign work of God that cannot be boast upon about works.  
  
Justin Perdue: And it's based on faith and our works don't contribute. He's going to say that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I appreciate the clarity on that. Where the confusion is that he is trying to show the significance of one's life who is in Christ. And this is where he will state his orthodox position, which we herald amen to, then confuses it a little bit—well, I would say a lot—with collapsing the law onto the gospel. I think the longest section in his book is probably the rich young ruler; the one that comes and asks Jesus, "Lord, what must I do to be saved?"  
  
Justin Perdue: I think what you end up seeing is that MacArthur is trying to bake submission, obedience, and a desire to obey into the nature of what it is to trust and believe in Jesus. He's not saying that fruit and obedience and all these kinds of things are the basis of being saved—that's not at all what he's saying. But it does seem good works, fruit, and all these kinds of things are the basis by which we can be assured that we are saved—and that's where we would want to raise some issue. It's as though we are building our justification upon our sanctification. Like we're deriving our justification from the sanctifying work of God in our lives—and that just flat out can't be done because as soon as we do that, we've sort of given the whole thing away.  
  
Calvin writes this: "For if they begin," they being Christians, "to judge their salvation by good works, nothing will be more uncertain or more feeble. From this it comes about that the believer's conscience feels more fear and consternation than assurance. If righteousness is supported by works in God's sight, it must entirely collapse and it is confined." So now he's talking about what salvation is; he said, "It is confined solely to God's mercy, solely to communion with Christ, and therefore, solely to faith." And so I think that's our concern is that there's a confusion of exactly what faith is at times, but then there's certainly a collapsing of justification and sanctification in a way that robs the believer of peace with God and assurance.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And historically speaking, the confessions and Reformed theology have acknowledged that good works are necessary and obviously bolster, encourage, or build upon the assurance of the believer. Wholeheartedly, it says that you should do good works, and these works of course arise only out of the Holy Spirit. The evidence of these good works bolster our salvation, but those who attain the greatest heights of obedience possible in this life are far from being able to merit reward by being beyond duty. You never, at a moment, can look to your good works as the ground of justification.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or as the basis of your assurance.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. And again, I do not want to misrepresent him. So we're going to use a couple of sections of his passage. When we're dealing with the rich young ruler, he rightly exegetes the passage.  
  
Justin Perdue: Now we're moving into the law-gospel stuff now.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. A lot of things: law-gospel, uses of the law... So he rightly exegetes the passage and says that Jesus doesn't give him the gospel. Amen to that. John's right—Jesus doesn't.  
  
Justin Perdue: He is so right for so long about the rich young ruler, and how it ends poorly.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I know. It's funny as I was reading it—I know I've read this a long time ago, but this is a lot of really great stuff. I was very encouraged by a lot of what I was reading. I was like, "I agree, agree, agree. That's historic. That's Reformed." Where the confusion comes in is his assessment of what he's trying to prevent from happening, which is you can say a prayer, live however you want, walk an aisle, sign a card, get baptized...  
  
Justin Perdue: Or believes certain things, but not really surrender your life to Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Which we would all agree. And the Reformed would say if one professes Christ and is unwilling to live for Christ, they obviously don't understand the gospel because the gospel transforms you from life to death. If you're in Christ, then the evidences of Christ will come through. We agree with all of that. But he says things in such ways that, I think, causes some confusion.  
  
I have a couple of quotes here that I wanted to read. It comes from this section about the rich young ruler. Let me back up: this is the one that we did a whole podcast on, which is Matthew 7\. You remember that episode that we did? "Lest anyone says to me, 'Lord, Lord'." In the end, he says that, "Clearly no past experience—not even prophesying, casting out demons, or doing signs and wonders—can be viewed as evidence of salvation apart from a life of obedience." And I understand what he's getting at, but in the context of Matthew 7, you're dealing with people who are rejecting Jesus as Messiah; they aren't rejecting obedience. So there's a confusion there.  
  
Justin Perdue: If anything, I think they're placing confidence in their works, not confidence in Christ. That's the irony.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So he says, "viewed as evidence of salvation apart from a life of obedience", which they were pointing to their obedience as the evidence itself of salvation, and Jesus rejected them because he says it's not your obedience that saves you...  
  
Justin Perdue: "It's not the works that you've done in My Name—it's Me."  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. That was one I was tracking with until that last statement. There's a confusion on the application here. Jesus actually is pointing to their obedience and saying that's not what justifies you.  
  
Justin Perdue: Just to be very clear for those who are listening in: the stuff that we pointed out already are some concerns about how faith is even defined or described, and now we're pointing out concerns about how MacArthur and the lordship camp tends to collapse the law and the gospel, and also how they collapse the categories of the uses of the law. That's really where we're launching into now by talking about the rich young ruler. A number of these things are just going to come out and we'll talk about them as they do.  
  
So his exposition, like you said, Jon, of the rich young ruler is pretty good for a while. And then sadly, it just ends really, really bad in terms of the takeaway.  
  
Here's perhaps the most significant quote from that section. This is MacArthur's conclusion: "Our Lord gave this young man a test: he had to choose between his possessions and Jesus Christ. He failed the test. No matter what points of doctrine he might affirm, because he was unwilling to turn from what else he loved most, he could not be a disciple of Christ. Salvation is only for those who are willing to give Christ first place in their lives." That's guiding MacArthur's exposition of the text; that's his takeaway from the passage.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just so people understand, when we talk about the categories of the law and the gospel, if you've not heard our episode understanding the difference between the two, I would encourage you to go do so. Gospel is always what has been done by Christ for sinners. It's a declaration of the good news of the freedom from the punishment of sin and the gaining of righteousness done by the works of God, through Christ, for our benefit. That is good news of declaration. The law is the demand for perfect obedience and righteousness to everything that is in the nature of God and in His Word, and the two are never, ever collapsed in on each other. So you have the good news of what is done, and then you have the declaration of what you must do.  
  
He admits in this section that Jesus never gets to the gospel, and yet says that basically he could never get to the gospel because the young man was not willing to basically come to receive the gospel.  
  
Justin Perdue: What's crazy is that MacArthur even gets right that Jesus effectively is aiming to get this young man to prove his love for God and neighbor. He even almost says that language verbatim, which was shocking to me because we agree that's what Jesus is doing when he tells the young man to sell everything he has given to the poor and then come follow him. That is him saying to the young man. "Okay, you think you've kept the commandments, now prove your love to God and neighbor." And that is still a message completely of law. This is where MacArthur kind of collapses these categories because his takeaway, like so many people from that section, is there is this element in which we must surrender all if we're going to be saved or we at least have to be willing to do so.  
  
So this collapsing of law and gospel forces MacArthur to do this whole kind of backpedaling thing where he's going to say—I'll just read this quote right now: "Do we literally have to give away everything we own to become Christians? No. But we do have to give Christ first place. That means we must be willing to forsake all for him." So now he has to backpedal on the requirements of the law and he has to dumb them down and relativize them and say, "We don't all literally need to sell everything we have in order to follow Jesus, but we need to be willing to do that."  
  
My question is, where is willing and the idea of willing in the passage? It's not there. Because Jesus is giving this man straight up law: "Prove your love to God and neighbor, and you will be perfect." And the man can't do it. That's the whole point of it. And the one who could provide him righteousness and atone for his sins is standing right there in front of him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Another quote later on down, it says, "He left not because he heard the wrong message, not even because he didn't believe, but because he was unwilling to forsake what he loved most in the world and commit himself to Christ as Lord. Instead of taking him from where he was at getting him to make a "decision," Jesus had laid out the terms that were unacceptable to him. In a sense, Jesus drove him away." To which we would say the rich young ruler came in and asked, "What must I do?" And Jesus told him what he had to do. The confusion on that is that that's somehow then connected to what it's required to be a disciple of Jesus. Jesus never gave him what was required in order to be a follower, or let's put it this way: saved from his sins. That wasn't the conclusion. So if you collapse that down in there and say Jesus is setting up the requirements of what it looks like to be a follower of him in forgiveness, that's a confusion of the law and the gospel.  
  
Justin Perdue: Which is where you get this language of the "demands of the gospel".  
  
The lordship camp loves to use that kind of language, that the gospel demands everything from us and requires everything from us, and it will cost us our very lives and all those kinds of things. There are ways in which we agree that it will cost us our lives in that we are forsaking anything about ourselves that could ever be meritorious before the Lord, we are following a crucified Savior, and all of those things; we absolutely and heartily affirm. But the language of the demands of the gospel is Exhibit A when it comes to the collapsing of the law and the gospel, in turning the gospel effectively into a kind of covenant of works, where there are all these things required of us if we're going to be worthy of the Lord Jesus Christ.  
  
This is just another observation. MacArthur, like us, would affirm that Roman 7, for example, is about a Christian where Paul writes this language of wanting to obey but finding himself not obeying: the good things he wants to do he doesn't do, the bad things he doesn't want to do, he does. Whatever he wants to do right, evil lies close at hand, etc. "I delight in the law of God in my inner man, but there's another law waging war against me," and that's sin in his members and all these things.  
  
And so MacArthur agrees with us and agrees with the Reformed through history that that's about a Christian's state—the internal war we fight as believers. He does not maintain that Christians can be perfect. Because he collapses law and gospel, and because he also maintains Christian imperfection, he then is forced to talk about this willingness to obey, and then he is also forced, as we've already talked about, to relativize and tone down the requirements of the law. It's interesting the positions that force us into that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to read one more quote. It says here, "The ultimate test was whether this man would obey the Lord. Jesus was not teaching salvation by philanthropy. He was not saying it is possible to buy eternal life with charity. In effect, He was saying, 'Here is the test of true faith: Are you willing to do what I want you to do? Whom do you want to run your life, you or Me?' The Lord was putting his finger on the very nerve of this man's existence. Knowing where his heart was, He said, 'Unless I become the highest authority in your life, there is no salvation for you.' By placing himself alongside the man's wealth and demanding that he makes the choice, our Lord revealed the true state of the man's heart."  
  
Look, I don't disagree, but did you see where it was slipped in in that quote? Jesus never offered him what he was saying. Jesus told him he never offered him eternal life; he only offered him earning it. Like you can earn it. It's not a gift. We know that that salvation faith is a gift—this is Ephesians 2\. Faith is gifted to us; it's not earned. The phrase here where he says the test of truth is are you willing to do whatever you want to do? No. No one is ever willing to do that. You are dead in your trespasses and sins. You cannot make yourself alive. This is where John is a Calvinist, but then uses non-Calvinistic language.  
  
Justin Perdue: In another sense, like some of the Reformed through history have done, he puts all of these qualifiers on faith. And there's all these things that have to be, if not done, at least qualifications that need to be met in order to come to Christ. We don't have time to get into it, but that is what the whole Marrow Controversy was about in the Church of Scotland. Do we need to do anything in order to be eligible effectively to come to Jesus? And the conclusion there from the Marrow brethren, which we agree with, is no, we don't need to do anything in order to come to Christ.  
  
We come to Christ in faith and through union with him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In essence, you can make the conclusion from John that this man needed to do something before he truly be a follower of Christ and that's the mistake.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or he had to be willing to give everything away for Christ. I don't know that anybody is on the front end, apart from a sovereign work of God, that would give us eyes to see as we hear the law and then the message of Christ and the gospel.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Even in John 3:16, when Jesus tells Nicodemus those who believe are the ones granted eternal life. He's talking about this regeneration of new birth. What's hard is that Jesus isn't talking to a believer, telling him, "Hey, if you're claiming faith in me, this is what life should look like." So to confuse that conversation, Jesus is talking to an unbeliever who isn't seeking Jesus for salvation but is seeking the law for salvation. We always have to keep the context of the passage at hand. There are times where Paul flat out says, "Hey, if you're up saying you're a believer and you're not acting like it, that's a problem." But that's not the context of the rich young ruler.  
  
Justin Perdue: As we continue with this law-gospel track, and even the law itself and how it should rightly be used, let's talk briefly on MacArthur's treatment of the Sermon on the Mount. So we understand along with the Reformed through history that the Sermon on the Mount is the greatest sermon on the law that's ever been preached. We're not saying exclusively, but largely, the purpose of the Sermon on the Mount is an exposition of the law and an application of the law to man that will condemn and crush us in our own attempts to be righteous, and would thereby drive us to the one preaching the sermon who came to fulfill the law in our place. But MacArthur's take on the Sermon on the Mount—and I think some of this has to be derived from his dispensational convictions and how he thinks about the law existing in a different era of redemptive history, and now with the coming of Christ, we're in a different redemptive dispensation. He says, for example, citing Matthew 7:13-14, which is the broad road and the narrow way and all that, his conclusion from those verses is this: "This passage crushes the claim of those who say the Sermon on the Mount is not gospel, but law. In fact, these closing verses are pure gospel with as pointed an invitation as has ever been issued." He goes on to say, "You will not find a plainer statement of the gospel according to Jesus anywhere in Scripture." He's saying that about the narrow way and the broad road in particular.  
  
My initial take on that is no, the Sermon on the Mount is not gospel—it's law. There's a confusion of law-gospel all over the place going on there. Then when he says you can't find a plainer statement of the gospel according to Jesus, I think you can. For example, Jesus' words to the woman of the city in Luke 7\. The prostitute who comes and washes his feet, etc. He says to her, "Your sins are forgiven. Your faith has saved you. Go in peace." I think that's a better word of gospel. " You're forgiven and your faith in me has saved you. Go in peace."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Jesus uses a lot of illustrations in his ministry, like the eye of a needle and the camel. He's talking about the impossibility of one finding salvation on their own or one earning salvation by their own merits. So the whole the road is narrow, the idea of it is you don't find it, you don't logically discover it, you don't earn your way into it. Taking that verse and using it in that way, you should hear that and respond as the disciples do and say, "Then who could be saved?" Jesus says, "Well, no one can. With man, it's impossible. With God, everything is possible."  
  
Everything Jesus says when it relates to the law and earning salvation, you should hear impossibility. Nicodemus did. He said, "How am I going to reenter the mother's womb?" Well, now you've got it. You got the impossibility.  
  
Justin Perdue: Now you understand that this is a work of God.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Later on, he even says that this is the work of the Spirit. You can't even manipulate the Spirit. It's like the wind and we don't know where it's going. There's nothing you can do to manipulate salvation—not before and not after. It is an entire work of God. And that's where there's the confusion of the law and the gospel. You add the law into the gospel, you are then saying there is something that you are involved in prior to regeneration. We're saying, no, it's all after regeneration, which I agree happens simultaneously, but you cannot put anything before the gift of salvation through faith.  
  
Justin Perdue: And the free offer of Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I need to clarify something. John MacArthur is not Roman Catholic and he is not noting works in front of salvation. I don't want to misrepresent him. It's just the confusion of his language at times where you wonder, "Is that what he's saying? Because it sounds like that's what he's saying."  
  
Justin Perdue: And all we are asking for in this whole thing is clarity of language, clarity on the gospel, clarity on justification, clarity on the sufficiency of Christ, and all of these things.  
  
One of the things too that we want to hit on in this regular portion of the podcast is how there is also not just a collapsing of law and gospel, but there's a confusion and a collapsing of the uses of the law—in particular, the first use and the third use. Very quick definitions: the first use of the law is to show us our sin and drive us to the Savior. It's the pedagogical, the teaching use, and the mirror use. Then there is also the third use, which is the guide that the law is for the Christian's life. Once we're united to Christ, the law guides our living in him, and we seek to be conformed to it by God's grace through the Spirit. It seems that in much of the teaching from the lordship camp and from John MacArthur, there's a confusion and collapsing of these categories.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think Sermon on the Mount is a good example of this. There are a lot of people who don't agree with the uses of the law. They say that it's not biblical. I think it's very helpful. Obviously, if you believe in church discipline, you have to believe in the uses of the law. I don't know how you don't.  
  
A good example of using the first use of the law, which is designed for sinners, as a third use of the law for believers, which is guiding the Christian's life, is Paul Washer's famous youth sermon that he preached. If you go in there and you'll listen to it, he rightly preaches law, but he's using it in such a way to condemn Christians and get them to believe that they're not Christians, and call into question their faith. He's doing it in such a way where people who hear that sermon... I remember the first time I heard it, there was this sense of "Am I truly a believer?" Because he's using the first use of the law to garner holiness.  
  
I know this is so nuanced and we're going to have to get into this later. We can't do this now, which is kind of the purpose of the Semper Reformanda podcast, to go into things a little bit deeper. But you can never use the first use of the law to encourage holiness in Christians because it will only condemn them, crush them, and push them away from Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: I know in my own church, I preach the first use of the law to the saints pretty much every week, but I do it in this way: I am reminding us of our utter inability to keep the law and to do everything that God requires so that we might anew be reminded and be driven to Christ and cast ourselves completely upon him. Even in preaching the first use of the law, lest we get it confused, we can not do this. Trust Christ. That is a first use of the law since, but it's still not done with this condemnatory edge to it that is often taking place. For example, you mentioned that sermon from Paul Washer.  
  
The other thing is whenever we talk about the third use of the law, the law for the Christian cannot condemn. And so our tone ought not be condemnatory as we are talking to people about how they ought to live. And we've made this observation before that a lot of times, the third use of the law to guide the Christian is preached like it's the first use, which is to condemn and crush those outside of Jesus who are trusting in themselves. It really is harmful because what you end up doing effectively is just unsettling every saint who is thoughtful, and who has a tender conscience thinking, "I've not really done what God requires."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Two examples of the third uses of law that we use all the time: one would be Ephesians 4 where Paul says for those of you that have been chosen, walk in a manner worthy of the calling to what you've been called, with meekness, gentleness and longsuffering. Those are commands and they are in relation to the nature of Christ, and that you should obey them, but they're not condemnatory. Peter says in 2 Peter 1:9, he lists all of these things that are godly, and he says if you're not doing these things, you have forgotten that you've been cleansed from your former sins. He's not condemning the believer because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, but he is saying you're not a very effective Christian.  
  
To condemn a Christian by using the law is...  
  
Justin Perdue: Is not to use the law lawfully. Let's just put it that way.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's an inappropriate use of the law and it's a confusion of law-gospel. So when you confuse the law and the gospel, you will immediately confuse the three uses of the law and the demands of the law. I think this happens a lot when we collapse these.  
  
If I'm going to boil it all down and say the one thing that I would love to dialogue more with the guys in this camp—and really, there's a whole generation of people that are my age that are wrestling with these truths—it's a place of emphasis. This is the very thing that we talk about. The Reformed faith and the confessions emphasize the finished work of Christ, the sufficiency of Christ on our behalf, and then obedience. We find ourselves safe in Christ; now obey. And that emphasis has been reversed. Your sufficiency and security and safety in Christ is called into question based upon your level of dedication. We aren't drawn into obedience because we're safe in Christ; we're pushed into obedience out of fear and anxiety of possibly losing what we have in Christ or proving we never were in Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. Like we've got to prove ourselves to be legitimate, therefore we obey. You and I are on the same wavelength because that's exactly where I wanted to go. As I stated at the outset, and you did too, while MacArthur and the lordship camp, generally speaking, has not directly denied any historical Reformed or Protestant doctrine, at least what has occurred is that the accent has been moved from Christ to the Christian in this kind of theology. People who are familiar with Theocast are gonna hear that and they're gonna say, "Yeah, we've heard you guys talk about that before." In so many ways, when we talk about pietism. That's what we're saying. It's not that Christ isn't preached. It's not that we're not even clear on justification or whatever it may be. It's that the emphasis and the accent has been shifted, and rather than Jesus being in the foreground in the Christian life and the Christian being in the background, that's inverted. And really the focus becomes the Christian. The same thing has happened in this conversation when it pertains to lordship salvation.  
  
I think we're going to make our way over to the Semper Reformanda podcast in just a minute.  
  
And a couple of things before we actually make our way over there. First thing is if you want to dive a little bit more into some of these things that we've been discussing today, a great thing for you to do would be to go and download the free ebook version of our primer on rest. That's called _Faith vs. Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest_. We're going to be talking about things from a Reformed confessional perspective when it comes to the sufficiency of Christ and clarity on the gospel and all that good stuff. There's a free ebook available, or you could always go on Amazon and buy the hard copy if you're a guy like me who likes to have a book in your hands.  
  
The second thing is that a big piece of Semper Reformanda is the app that's been created that connects all of the SR members together. And that's a forum in which this conversation, and conversations like it, can continue to be had in a safe place and in a place where we can talk about these things with charity and grace. We would encourage you to consider signing up and being a part of Semper Reformanda so that you can join the community of people who are thinking and wrestling with the same things that you are, and also to help us spread this message of the sufficiency of Christ as wide as we can, as far as we can.  
  
Over in the SR podcast, which is where Jon and I are headed, we're going to talk about a few things. I think we're going to keep talking some about the collapsing of the first and third use of the law. Jon may make some more comments on that.  
  
And then I want to talk about Puritans a little bit, because I think in the book that MacArthur wrote the gospel, according to Jesus, he cites a number of Puritan writers. And he seems to do that generally in a way that I think is a little bit indiscriminate. I don't want to impugn him in this way, but not all Puritans are the same. I think that some of the lordship salvation stuff that I read seems like a reworking of some of the less good Puritan theology from the 17th, 18th century and the like. We're going to talk a little bit more about that over in SR. So if you want to be a part of that conversation, sign up and become a member. And part of that means that you'll listen in on this extra podcast we do every week.  
  
We hope this conversation has been enjoyable and easy to track with. Hopefully this has brought some clarity for you as you think about lordship salvation and some of the things that you hear and see maybe in the Twittersphere and wherever else you may see comments about these matters.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One last parting shot. Wherever you talk about this, you need to do it in obedience to Paul with meekness and patience, seeking to maintain the bond of peace.  
  
Justin Perdue: And I would argue that Twitter is not the place to have significant debates. We'll leave that with the listener.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Come join us in the SR.  
  
Justin Perdue: We'll speak with you again next week.

---

### Dying with Dignity

*Published: July 7, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/dying-with-dignity*
*Tags: Prosperity Gospel, Rest*

In the church, we care for souls. But what is it that we are doing in that work? It is our conviction that we are helping one another die well--with dignity and hope. That may sound like a strange thing to say, but we are convinced it's biblical. In this life, we are weak and frail. We experience suffering and pain. Yet, Christ is our hope. And he has secured for us a life that is beyond this one.  
  
Semper Reformanda: The guys discuss a theology of the cross versus a theology of glory. And, we consider the point of our sanctification.  
  
Resources:  
[Episode: Take Up Your Cross](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/take-up-your-cross/)  
  
Giveaway: ["Recovering Eden" by Zack Eswine](https://amzn.to/3wgUdJH)  
  
FREE EBOOK: Theocast.org/primer  
  
https://youtu.be/cl1BAv\_PDHU  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we're going to be talking about what we are trying to do in the church when we care for people's souls. A lot of things are said about these things, but it's our position here that really what we're effectively doing is helping people die well—helping people die with dignity and with hope, and that hope being in the Lord Jesus Christ. A lot of the things that are said about sanctification, even growth in the Christian life, give us the wrong idea. So we want to try to define some terms and define things appropriately today, as well as think well about our weakness and our frailty in this life, and the hope that Christ has given us in the life that is to come ,and to think well together about the faithfulness of God in the midst of our suffering and pain. We hope that this conversation is encouraging for you.  
  
And then over in the SR podcast today, we're going to get into some theology of the cross and theology of glory conversations. We hope that you enjoy that conversation as well.  
  
We're going to be effectively talking today about the care of souls and what it is that we're doing in caring for souls in the church. The title of the episode is _Dying With Dignity_, which really is borrowed from something that John said on a podcast a few months ago about what we're doing in the church as we watch over and care for people, which is this: we are helping people die with dignity and hope, and effectively we're helping people die well, trusting in the Lord Jesus, knowing that deliverance has been accepted for them and that our final deliverance is coming because of Christ. And so this is a conversation in some ways about suffering, in some ways about sanctification, and trying to talk about it in a way that's honest that squares with our experience. Because a lot of times, at least this is my take and I know you agree, that the way that growth and sanctification and even healing—to use some of that therapeutic language—is talked about. I think it gives us the wrong idea of what it's going to be like.  
  
This conversation today is, we hope, a kind of a reset. And I personally think it's encouraging. We do not mean in saying this, in anything we're about to say, we do not mean to sound fatalistic as though life is gonna be terrible and Jesus is going to come back. That's not what we're saying. We're trying to biblically take a balanced posture on what it is the Lord is doing in our lives and what we can expect this life to look like between now and when we die, or between now and when Christ returns.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. When we use the word dignity, one of the things that came to mind when I first started to give this theology to our church—I was trying to describe to our church. What are we doing every week? What are we trying to accomplish? I always want to be careful not to tear the churches down, but a lot of what I was seeing presented by other churches has given such a bad taste in my mouth, because if that's the end goal—which is big buildings, big programs, big livestream...  
  
Justin Perdue: Everything bigger and better and higher.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is probably not what they're doing, but again, my own impression: it sounds like we're drowning out people's problems. It's like, "Come be a part of this movement and you can forget about your problems." That kind of system just chews people up. All of a sudden they look around to the people to the left and the right who are clean and who are all well put together.  
  
My kids and I just watched this movie called _The Mitchells Vs. The Machines_. In the movie is this dysfunctional family. They're comparing themselves to their neighbors who are all fit, who have perfect skin tone, and they all do yoga. It's just funny. Their vacations are perfect. That's how it can feel—you show up to church and it's like the Instagram family. That's exactly what it was. At the end of the movie, her neighbor says, "Hey, I just wanted to tell you I am so impressed with you. I'm now going to follow you."  
  
But the point of it is that you look around with the people next to you and you think, "Their lives are all put together and mine's not. I'm in a disarray. I have all the problems and I can't get myself together." And you see people flailing about to try and preserve their health, to preserve their looks, to preserve their money, to preserve their status and fame.  
  
I was having this discussion with someone yesterday at lunch about this person who just retired from baseball. What do they do with their life now? They're 40; their lives are half over and what used to bring them excitement, joy, and hope is gone, and you see often people start flailing about. This is where drugs come in. This is where all kinds of sexual deviancies come in.  
  
Justin Perdue: The proverbial midlife crisis.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. And the church should be able to step in and say, All of this is of no value to our life—our health, our wealth, our fame—it will not transfer to the real world, to our new world, to our new home. So when we say die with dignity, what we mean is you don't see someone grasping ridiculously to things that absolutely will perish. You're not taking them to the grave with you. What allows you to do this is your hope. If your hope is not in what this world provides, but in what is to come, which is what Christ provides, then you have that. How do you do that though? It's easy to say, "I want to die with dignity." But the question then becomes this: how is that accomplished? Is it accomplished alone? We're going to talk about that in today's podcast.  
  
Justin Perdue: There's language that's used in the church in various streams. For example, in the Calvinistic evangelical stream of things, you often hear language about growth or language about maturation in the faith, or even language of strength or getting stronger as a Christian. We've released an episode called _Strong Disciples Only_. We talked about some of that stuff and how disciples are often weak and afraid and things of that nature. But I think that language of growth and maturation and strength can be misleading because we tend to then think that as I grow, as I mature, as I get stronger, then my spiritual muscles and my spiritual capacity for work is just greater.  
  
I'm a fitness guy, and the way we define fitness is the ability to do work over a domain of time. As your fitness increases, so does your capacity to do things. Things that once were hard are now much easier. I can do more work over a period of time or I can bear more load or whatever it is. I think we think like that in the Christian life. That sometimes can be unhelpful because it's not always going to look like that. "Now that I've grown and now that I'm stronger, I can do a lot more and handle a lot more than I could five years ago or 10 years ago." Maybe. But it depends on how you define that. Or another kind of language that's used a lot in the church—and this is not necessarily all bad, but it can be if left unchecked and undefined—is the therapeutic language of healing, where people will talk about all the things that have happened to them, or even the things that have been brought upon their lives by their own sin and they are pursuing healing from those things.  
  
When some people use the word "healing", what they mean is—in their own minds—is they're going to get to a place tomorrow or a year or 10 years from now. Eventually when they have healed from this, when they look back on that thing or that experience, or that season of their life, it will no longer hurt or it will no longer affect them like it does today. To that I would like to say that I trust that over time, time alone will do some work—God, by His Spirit, will give you wisdom and perspective on your pain. Amen. Yet I trust that there will be things that we look back on for the entirety of our days on earth. And we look back and we say that still was hurtful, that still is painful, it's still hard to think about that. It's still hard for me to think about the death of my loved one. I still remember and I still grieve because that's how God made us. We're not made to forget pain and we're not made to forget sin. This is why we constantly are having to look outside of ourselves and outside of our experience to find hope.  
  
We need to be able to talk in these terms to help each other really live life in this fallen world.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. We like to poke fun at the prosperity gospel—it's an easy target. I think we equate prosperity gospel with money.  
  
Justin Perdue: But there's a different kind of prosperity theology.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. This can be seen in conservative churches as well. God is going to prosper... let's change the word because "prosper" has such dirty taste in our mouth. I like the words "heal", "progress", "bless", "strengthen", or "provide". God will provide for your needs, your job, your health, or whatever it is, because X, Y, Z is done. And what you hear is your faith, your actions, your discipline, your dedication, your faithfulness, steadiness, etc., is related to your health, your job, your anxiety—whatever you want to put in there. This is a great example of dying without dignity. Enough failure in these prosperities will create absolute disparity because you can only take so many failures. There's only so much time that eventually you realize, "I am a failure at this game. I can not accomplish this. It cannot be done." Not only that, to Justin's point, to the person who has had a minimal failure, they feel as if they can recover. But to the person who's had an epic failure—and I don't mean failure like it's their fault, but something like their spouse died, their child died, they were hurt, they were molested—  
  
Justin Perdue: An epic loss or just an epic, absolute heartbreak. Like life failed them. Like something was done to them that they will never be able to move on from.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. I said this in my sermon a couple of weeks ago. When I said that what the resurrection restores for us—in final restoration—is the loss of what we feel now. But you cannot have the restoration of death now. Unfortunately, in our church, we've suffered a lot of loss this year—children and parents and spouses. It's been a difficult year. As a church grows you're going to experience more and more suffering. Do I walk up to those parents and offer them some kind of solution to restore that pain? It cannot be restored. It's a scar that will remain until we reach glory when all will be restored. So you don't offer someone restoration; you offer them hope, which then creates a place of dignity where they can look around and go, "Okay, I can suffer now with some dignity, where I'm not going to look foolish trying to grasp onto something that just isn't going to work."  
  
Justin Perdue: And I can suffer knowing that I do have an unshakable eternal hope, and that unshakable, eternal hope may or may not change how I feel about this thing right now.  
  
As I was listening to you talk a minute ago, you were talking about how prosperity gospel, prosperity theology stuff, is often easy for us to spot, but there are different kinds of it that exist in the church. I think what we're talking about today, whether we use the therapeutic language of healing or whether we use the more Calvinistic evangelical language of growth, maturation, and the like—I'm not saying it has to because if it's done well, it's fine—but I think it can quickly become a kind of easy listening prosperity theology, where we're told that if we pursue things the right way in terms of our healing, or if we do things the right way in terms of our pursuit of godliness, then we will experience certain levels of healing or growth that will make our life better now. Maybe our lives will be better now—and I trust there will be ways that our lives are better but we don't really realize.  
  
This brings me to a few thoughts. I'm very tempted to talk about a theology of glory versus a theology of the cross. I trust maybe we'll get there and maybe we'll talk about that in SR. It could be a good conversation.  
  
Let's just talk for a minute about how sanctification even works in this life. Laying cards out on the table, Jon and I believe that sanctification is monergistic—and by that, we mean that God is the one who does it. Justification—our being absolved of guilt, forgiven of sins, and declared righteous—is monergistic; there's one worker and that's God. And then even in our sanctification, we participate because we've now been given life, but God is the one who effectively does it. He accomplishes our sanctification and conforms us into the image of His Son.  
  
I think it becomes very obvious that sanctification is monergistic when we talk about it honestly. Because how does it so often occur in our lives and in our experience? I would suggest that we are most sanctified by things that we would never have foreseen, that we would never have planned for ourselves, that we would never have signed up for, and that frankly—in our lives as they exist today—we don't like. This, to me, makes it very clear that God is the author and God is the one who accomplishes that sanctifying work in us. We encounter trials of various kinds. Again, we don't pray for trials, we don't foresee or anticipate them. We're not God; we don't see them coming. If we could change it, we would. But He ordains trials so that, like James 1:2-3, we're told to count it all joy when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. Or you have Romans 5 where Paul begins that chapter by saying, "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." That's a big deal.  
  
But then verse two, "Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace into which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. So there's that hope piece. "Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." So we can rejoice in suffering, we can count it joy when we encounter trials of various kinds, because we know that God is working steadfastness in us. That is a miracle that only God can accomplish. Because logically speaking, at a human level, the kinds of suffering that we're talking about—we're not talking about some adversity and you need to push through it to make you stronger stuff. This isn't that "climb the mountain and be a conqueror" trash. We're talking about real hardship and calamity and suffering.  
  
The human response to that is that if there is a God, I hate Him. We're just going to be driven more deeply into our selfishness and our sin. Not, "Oh, this is going to produce hope and steadfastness and character in me." That is the work of God almighty—and He does it this way. I think this is helpful for us to realize that this kind of sanctifying work is of the Lord, and we often do not see it as it's happening. We're terrible evaluators of our own growth. We need other Christians around us to help us see it. I think we can only see it individually as we pan out from our lives and we realize that we are different than we were 10 years ago, and we were different than we were 15 years ago. God has worked some stuff in me and praise be to His name.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And different in that you trust Him more.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. It's a perspective change. What is wisdom? It's effectively God's perspective that we now have to a greater degree: we actually have a better perspective on our past and we trust the Lord through it. We more readily acknowledged that the secret things belong to Him and I don't fully understand.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What you're describing is what I see all the time: it's a camouflage prosperity gospel. It's been rebranded. Satan is the father of all lies; he doesn't need you to deny the gospel or deny God or even important theology, he just needs you to get discouraged to get you off your faith. And on your faithfulness, he's just going to change something slightly. A great example of what you're talking about here—and I would even say Paul himself is debunking this camouflage prosperity gospel—in 2 Corinthians 12, he says, "So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.'"  
  
Now our situations probably will be very different from Paul. We're not dealing with the issue of conceitedness, but if you compare this with James and Romans, the idea is that often, God will allow things to be in our lives so that our weakness drives us to our knees. Another way of saying this is that our weakness drives us to the point where we don't have strength and our strength has to come from something else. And that's when he says God's grace is sufficient, for His power is made perfect in weakness.  
  
Go back to the episode about strong disciples only. The New Testament just cuts that thing off at the knees and says, no, it's not about strength; it's about God's faith and our faith in God's strength.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen, brother. If there's anybody’s strength that we need to worry about, it's God’s.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you feel like this is off, if you're hearing sermons, or you're reading books, or your brain has been trained to think that a strong Christian looks like this, but a weak Christian looks like that, a strong Christian is one who has strongly put their faith in Christ and his sufficiency. Their hope is not in their ability to do something, but in God's ability to do something for them.  
  
To be clear on all of this, often I'm convinced that people want to hear what they want to hear and they don't actually hear what we're saying. It sounds like you guys are just giving up and just letting God do something and you're not being held responsible for yourselves.  
  
Justin Perdue: And that's not what we're saying at all. To some people listening to this, I trust that some of this might sound like blasphemy, that we are somehow short-selling the Holy Spirit and you guys need to be encouraging people towards a victorious and triumphant Christian life. We've been delivered from the dominion of sin and you need to be encouraging people towards growth and maturation. I'm not discouraging growth and maturation; I'm just saying, let's talk about it accurately. And like you just said, actual maturation and real strength is knowing that you don't have it and that God is faithful and strong. In your weakness, His grace is sufficient and His power is displayed.  
  
The 1689 London Baptist Confession, chapter five, paragraph five on Divine Providence talks about these very things—how God, in His perfect and wise and holy providence, uses suffering and pain and even our own sin for His good and holy purposes in our lives. And what are those? The ones that are outlined in the confession include us being humbled, so that we might know more and more how much we need Christ and how dependent upon God we are. That's huge. God uses suffering and pain to continue to drive us to Jesus and to continue to remind us of our weakness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Chapter 17 on sanctification, point one: "Even though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet these things will never be able to move the elect from the foundation and rock to which they are anchored by faith. The felt side of the light and the love of God may be clouded and obscured from them for a time through their own unbelief and the temptations of Satan. Yet God is still the same; they will certainly be kept by the power of God for salvation, where they will enjoy their purchased possession. For they are engraved on the palms of his hand, and their names have been written in the book of life for all of eternity." The point of it is—and this is Paul in 2 Corinthians—that when you get tossed about, and at times your vision is cloudy, your foundation is in his hands. It's engraved there. In other words, you belong to him.  
  
In point 3, it says this: "They may fall into grievous sins and continue in them for a time, due to the temptation of Satan and the world, the strength of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation." Means of grace is so important. "In so doing, they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit; their graces and comforts become impaired; their hearts are hardened and their conscience wounded; they hurt and scandalize others and bring temporary judgments of themselves. Nevertheless, they will renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end." We believe this to be true. I often think people linger in sin longer because they're waiting for that moment of freedom but no, it's just a lifelong struggle and we rest in Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: I agree wholeheartedly. That was a great interjection with chapter 17\. Just finishing chapter five, paragraph five, and then I want to mention something from 2 Corinthians as well: so God uses pain and suffering and even our own sin to discipline us; He's a loving Father who disciplines His children—Hebrews 12\. But He's humbling us, He's teaching us how much we need Him, how dependent we are upon Christ, and He's also teaching us in such a way that we might—down the road, when we encounter things that are similar—we may have a different perspective than we had this time. So God's doing all those good things through our pain and even our own sin.  
  
But think about these words from 2 Corinthians at the beginning of the letter. This is from chapter one, verses eight and nine. Paul says this: "For we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself. Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead." Amen. That's what we're saying: God will use suffering and trial to the point where in our experience—listen to the words of the apostle—we despaired of life itself. We feel like we've received the sentence of death. We are perishing and sometimes I wish I just would, because it's so hard. But what is God doing? He is teaching us to rely not on ourselves, but on Him and upon Jesus who has provided us with atonement for sin and righteousness, and who has secured our resurrection.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Amen. To make a little bit of a shift and change here, this hopefully is an encouragement to the one who might be realizing they find themselves duped by a different form of prosperity gospel. They're not the failure; this life is the failure. We live in a cursed world; our heart and our bodies have been cursed. And there can be a form of victory as long as we don't have to live in the bondage of sin. It doesn't mean our struggle with sin is ever going away, but we don't need to be in bondage to it, as according to Paul. We do not do that, but you can not, should not, and do not do this on your own. Many people have also fallen into this prosperity gospel: you can succeed in the Christian life by yourself. You put in the work and God blesses you. And this is so far from the truth.  
  
Justin, you and I often get criticized because people will say, "You guys are deemphasizing Bible reading; you're deemphasizing spiritual disciplines. Basically, you are telling people that you are deemphasizing the necessity of sanctification." To respond to that, we are not deemphasizing sanctification. I want every single one of my congregants to be the exact image of what Paul describes in Ephesians 4: in perfect harmony in the fullness and wisdom and knowledge of Christ. I want every single one of my congregants to be there, and myself included, I want nothing to be in their way. I don't want anything to hinder them because that's where they're going to find the most hope, the most joy, the most peace, the most ability to long suffer. And so why would I want to remove something out of their pathway to help them in that sanctification process? It's just that we have been so trained to individualize, white knuckle, pull yourself up by the bootstrap sanctification process—and it's just not the case.  
  
The purpose of the church—and I think you can talk about discipleship, evangelism, or the means of grace in this phrase—is to help people die with dignity and hope. The only way you can die with dignity and hope is that, first of all, your hope has to be outside of this world and outside of yourself. The way in which you find yourself on death's door, and you're not at that place where you're flailing about trying to hold on to everything, it's because your brothers and sisters around you are holding you up. They're speaking Christ to you.  
  
We quote this almost every podcast, but I can't help not to. This is Hebrews 3: "Consider how to build one another up daily so that you aren't hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves as such as you are. When the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love." This is what I love to say to someone who's walked in—and I've had to say this a lot lately with so many people coming into the church—they walk in and their lives are messed up. They've made massive mistakes, they've done things that they regret, and they often feel like they're damaged goods and there's really nothing for them in the church other than show, tithe, then leave. Because how can God use such damaged goods? Here's what's great about the gospel: that you don't need a degree, you don't need a lot of money, you don't need a different past in order to love, care, and support other brothers and sisters in Christ to give them exactly what they need to rest and find hope in Christ. As a matter of fact, you can be one of the most effective Christians on the planet by simply learning to love, care, be patient, carry burdens, and allow people to have hope and be there when they die so they die with dignity.  
  
I ask them if they think they could do something like that, and the look on their face comes alive. They had nothing in the sense that they are not going to write books, or lead worship, or all this kind of stuff that they think Christianity is about. No, real Christianity is about holding the hand of a dear saint who has no hope and giving them hope.  
  
Justin Perdue: Real Christianity is trusting Christ, loving your brothers and sisters, pursuing righteousness, fleeing from Satan—that's what we're doing together. The reason why we discourage people from pursuing sin—there are a number of reasons. It dishonors the Lord, it's terrible for their lives, it wrecks this because it actually robs people of dignity. It absolutely just ruins lives: it ruins marriages and everything else.  
  
Because we love people, because we've been born again, we desire to honor God with our lives. We've become obedient from the heart (Romans 6:17). We encourage one another to continue to trust Christ and to continue to pursue righteousness. That's what it looks like to die well with hope and dignity. I'm hoping in Jesus, I'm trusting that he has me, that he's provided me with everything that I ever need. I was talking about this yesterday with one of the guys who's on staff with me and a member of our church. I am struck more and more all the time, especially in light of difficult circumstances that I find myself in or difficult circumstances that I am just very much aware of in our own congregation. There is just heartbreaking stuff going on all the time. Granted, I know that Christ is my righteousness in my best moments. I don't dispute that for a second. But then in my lowest and weakest moments, I am really just driven to rock bottom. What do I have here? What do we have here? When I'm hurting, when I'm discouraged, when I'm tired, when there just doesn't seem to be a lot of hopeful stuff going on in my life, what do we have? I've got Christ. What do I even mean by that? I believe there is a God, I believe He's holy, and I believe I'm not. I believe the Scripture is true and that Christ is coming back and he's going to judge all men. And what do I have on that day if this is where it's all going? I'm going to bank on the fact that, as I have understood Christ and the gospel, and as Christians have understood Christ in the gospel for 2000 years, that Jesus is gentle and gracious and faithful and compassionate toward those who trust in him. I am going to trust him that he's done everything for me that he has promised, and that he looks upon me with favor because I know I'm weak and I know.  
  
At the end of the day, that's the comfort for me. It doesn't necessarily make me feel better. I may still feel the exact same way about my circumstances or about the circumstances that others are going through, but we do believe that there is hope outside of this life, and there is objective hope in Christ and what he has accomplished that stands outside of how I feel, what I think, how I'm doing. I want to help my brothers and sisters continue to trust him, too. I want to help them flee from sin because it'll ruin their lives. I want to sit and listen when they're struggling and I want to hold people's hands as they pass from this life to the next. That's really what we're doing. I agree so wholeheartedly.  
  
And it sounds like a short sell to say that we're helping people die with dignity and hope. Aren't we doing more than that? At the end of the day, I think that is what we're doing and we're doing a heck of a lot by doing that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As cheesy as this is gonna sound, when we talk about being the hands and feet of Jesus, I see the church holding those dear precious people as they pass from here to there; they're passing with the hope of Christ next to them, to the reality of Christ in front of them. I see that to be a very serious ministry. The way I look at pastoral ministry now and Theocast is that... I don't want people to suffer needlessly and alone; I want them to walk away with the reality that there is more to this life than more money, more fame, more fitness, more family. All of those will fail and have failed, and it seems like we, as humans, are so stupid and Satan is so smart because the same thing that's been tripping up people from day one is still tripping people up today. What got Adam in trouble? The want for more power. It is still getting people in trouble today.  
  
Right. I have the joy of walking in—when someone is in the midst or has destroyed their life and they have no hope—to sit down and show them there's nothing they can do to restore this, but that doesn't mean your life is over because there's so much you can do to help others. And there's something you can do to have hope. That's what we're talking about.  
  
I love the reality that every week, Justin and I get to preach on Sundays, do our ministry throughout the week, and hop on a podcast and know that people are going to hear the power of God and go, "Well, my life has purpose." We were talking about this before the podcast. I'm overwhelmed that people say, "Theocast has forever changed my life." No, the gospel has forever changed your life; we just happened to be how you heard it.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's like what Charles Spurgeon said about the Bible where people asked him if he felt the need to defend the Bible because of all the stuff going on in his day, slide into liberal theology, etc. He's basically saying, and I paraphrase, "Defend the Bible? I'd sooner defend a lion. Because all I need to do is basically set the Bible loose and it will defend itself." The same is true with this message. All Jon and I are aiming to do is set loose this message of the sufficiency of Christ, because Jesus will handle it. The spirit of Christ will handle the application of this thing. All we're doing is trying to say stuff that not that many people have said on this continent, sadly, at least, especially not in our world, in a credobaptist world. We're not saying anything new and I don't think we're uniquely special in any way, but we're preaching a message that is incredible. Again, quoting ol' Chuck Spurgeon, he said, "People may preach the gospel better than me, but they will never preach a better gospel  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is the point of Semper Reformanda. We want to gather people together to learn how to do this: how to care for people, how to love on them, how to help them in our churches and in our community and in our families. One of the ways to do that is to understand this whole entire podcast has been really about the theology of cross versus the theology of glory, which we're going to dive into deeper and explain to you how to use the two in encouragement, counseling, and pastoring in the church in the next conversation with Semper Reformanda.  
  
But if you'd like to be a part of this community where we are helping more people find rest in Christ, helping them die with dignity and hope and supporting the churches, then join our ministry, Semper Reformanda, and you can download the app and listen to our private podcast feed, join the conversations, and join local groups where we meet locally and online to discuss this theology as we try and increase our awareness of Christ and decrease our trust in ourselves.  
  
Justin Perdue: In transitioning over to the SR podcast, if you've ever thought that much of what you hear about in the church, even when it comes to your growth in the faith, and it seems earthbound, it seems to focus on this life and not the one to come, that's very much related to this conversation that we're about to have—theology of glory versus a theology of the cross. Because I agree that much of the talk that we hear about sanctification and growth and maturity and strength and all that has everything to do with our life now. And in reality, where people who are not hoping in anything for this life, we are living for the life to come that Christ is secured for us. So if you're interested in listening in on that, Jon has already talked about Semper Reformanda and what it is. You can find any information that you want about this other podcast that we do, and the SR community that's been created over on our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com.  
  
So for those of you who are going to make your way over to the Semper Reformanda podcast, we'll talk with you in just a second. And for those of you who may not, at least yet, be heading over to the SR podcast, we're grateful for you. We're glad you tuned into this episode. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and were encouraged by it.  
  
We'll talk with you again next week.

---

### Marks of a Strong Christian

*Published: June 30, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/marks-of-a-strong-christian*
*Tags: Lordship Salvation, progressive sanctification, Sanctification*

How would you describe a strong Christian? If you were to make a list of what characterizes a mature Christian, what would you put on that list? At Theocast, we are convinced that many would not answer these questions the way the apostles would have. As we look to the New Testament, what does it say about those who are strong in the church?  
  
Semper Reformanda: The guys discuss parachurch ministries and how they have often contributed to the confusion about what characterizes a strong Christian. Then, we talk more about the necessity of ordinary faithfulness in loving the weak in the church.  
  
Giveaway: ["Spurgeon's Sorrows" by Zack Eswine](https://amzn.to/3qyt4R4)  
  
FREE EBOOK: [wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/primer](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/primer)  
  
Scripture references:  
Romans 15:1-4  
Galatians 6:1-2  
1 Thessalonians 5:14  
Ephesians 4:1-3  
Hebrews 3:15  
John 13:34  
  
SUPPORT Theocast: [https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/ ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/)  
  
https://youtu.be/zLoJL9uT9Ks  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Let me ask you this one question: what is a strong Christian? Is it one who is disciplined? Is it one who has read a thousand books on Christianity? How would you describe a strong Christian according to the Bible? That's what Justin and I are going to talk about today on Theocast. We might have a little bit of a twist to the question. We're going to look at it from Romans 15\. We hope you enjoy. Stay tuned.  
  
What are the marks of a strong Christian? Often, things that can cripple us and drag us down are things like depression and the dark night of the soul. This conversation is birthed out of a conversation we had at a men's Bible study and a sermon that I preached recently. We'll put the sermon in the notes as well.  
  
The conversation we want to have today are the marks of a strong Christian and those marks, if we were to do a survey, it would probably have been fun to do and see what people would have come up with. I'll throw a couple out, Justin. I'll let you throw a couple out. Ones that we've heard that normally, when we think of someone who is strong, this is someone who for 20 years has been faithfully on their knees for 30 minutes in the morning, an hour in the word, and really just hasn't missed unless they've been sick. The mark of a dedicated, faithful, disciplined Christian—that right there is a strong Christian.  
  
Justin Perdue: For me, whenever I've heard people talk about being a strong Christian, the first word that pops into my mind is discipline. It's a person who is disciplined in their life—and that may be with respect to prayer, Bible reading, but it could be any number of things. It's a regimented, ordered kind of life. I think a lot of times we think of Christians as being strong when they don't struggle with particular kinds of sins—the more taboo, public, obvious kinds of sins—they don't deal with those in the same way that others do, and so therefore they're strong.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the guys described it as there are no extremes—you don't see an extreme high, you don't see an extreme low, they're just steady. Steady Eddie, the guy with the gray hair who just always is: he's always there and he's always faithful. That's the strong Christian. Some of these things are true.  
  
Justin Perdue: Some of these things are good. To be really clear, we're not saying that discipline, steadiness, and not struggling with certain kinds of obvious sins are bad—all of those things are good.  
  
I'll just go ahead and say this, Jon, that if you were to take a survey of the top five things that should characterize a Christian, I am relatively confident that most of us would not answer that and would not fill that out the way the apostles would have. As we're getting to the number one thing that should mark us, it's pretty obvious in the New Testament and it's not what we would put first.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No, it is not.  
  
We're going to look at several passages, but we're going to look at Romans 15 as our starting point and. Our desire is that everyone would be a strong Christian—that they would find their firm foundation and effectiveness. As we have mentioned in the past, 2 Peter 1 talks about an effective Christian, and we would agree that Christians should be effective, but effective in what? What should they be effective in? When we think about strength, we think about the characteristics of strength, we need to allow Scripture to characterize those.  
  
I think often we have allowed businessmen, leadership skills, and I would even say self-made isolation tactics to determine what Christians are.  
  
Justin Perdue: When you hear us use the language of a strong Christian, you could also insert the word "mature". We're talking about what makes a strong Christian, what characterizes a strong or mature Christian according to the New Testament.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Out of the gates, Paul uses a different way of describing it, but he's saying, "Those of you who are strong, this is what you should be doing." In other words, you should have the capacity to do this, or the ability to do this.  
  
Let me just read you the first verse of Romans 15\. He says, "We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up." And then he uses our motivation and example, "For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, 'The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.'" We'll start there before I read verse four. Immediately, Paul is assuming strength with something that seems very contrary to modern day explanations of strength. He is saying strength is tied to the capacity and the ability to care for not yourself and your own sins, but to the ability to care for the sins and the failing of the strength of others.  
  
Justin Perdue: Verse one is just pretty epic. If you are strong, then you have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak. Your strength is actually meant to be used and poured out for the good of the weak in your midst. It's gripping.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Verse four—this is becoming one of my favorite verses more and more as I read it—"For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."  
  
What I love about it is he says not only must you deal with the failings and the weakness, but here's your motivation, here's your encouragement and endurance: it comes from looking at the hope of Christ in the Old Testament. (Of course, Paul is writing the New Testament at the moment. He was one of the writers.) He's always pointing us to Christ as one, example, and two, as hope. So we gain our encouragement and our endurance by looking at Christ; not our stability, not our long track record, not our discipline.  
  
Some people say, "I've been doing this for 20 years." They gain stability over the discipline or the longevity of whatever it is that they have accomplished, and Paul says, "No, your endurance and your encouragement come from what you're not doing; it's coming from what's been done."  
  
Justin Perdue: I love it. Consider Christ. He is the epitome of the one who is strong, giving himself away for the sake of the weak. Right. Consider him, seek to imitate him, strive to be like him, but he doesn't stop there. He gives us the ground underneath it all. And the thing that's actually going to drive, sustain, and propel us in that seeking to imitate Christ is to remember, recall, know, trust in the hope that you have in Christ, because this is what God has been revealing from the beginning. That's wonderful.  
  
Another passage that is great with respect to this conversation we're having today: Galatians 6\. Just the first couple of verses of that chapter. I'm gonna go and read the verses and then we'll comment on these a little bit.  
  
Paul writes, "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ." Another mark of a strong Christian is shown by Paul right here. If anybody is caught in sin, if anybody is mired in sin and transgression, you who are spiritual—you who are mature, you who are strong—should restore that person in a spirit of gentleness. And keep watch on yourself lest you too be tempted, lest you too fall.  
  
Marks of a strong Christian from Galatians 6 are gentleness toward people who are caught in sin and humility with respect to your own frame. Realize that were it not for the grace of God, there go you. And so what we ought to be doing—those of us who are mature, those of us who are strong by God's grace—we ought to be seeking to restore those who have fallen and to restore those who are struggling, who are trapped and caught in sin. We ought not be proud, we ought not be haughty, we ought not be condescending, we ought not be harsh, we ought not bludgeon people and just drop hammers and bombs all the time. We should gently seek the restoration of the weak.  
  
And then verse two, "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." We ought to seek to bear the burdens of our brothers and sisters. If the Lord has given you strength, if the Lord has given you some level of maturity, then use it to bear the burdens of your brothers and sisters in the church.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. It's so powerful to think about the difference between how we see a strong Christian and how the New Testament describes a strong Christian. If someone who is underneath the weight of their sin, who is so immature that they are so introspective, looking at themselves all the time, only worried about themselves, Paul says the spiritual people—the strong people—are the ones who have the ability to look and carry other people. It's not isolationism; it's the exact opposite.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's charity. It's humility. It's compassion.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One other passage from Paul... just a quick couple of verses. 1 Thessalonians 5, he again uses the gospel as our motivation: "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you were doing."  
  
And then later on, he continues the admonishment. He says in verse 14, "And we urge you, brothers, to admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all." Can you follow the transition here? He's going to do this again in Ephesians. The glory of Christ, we're not destined for wrath, live in that hope; and then he says to take the motivation that you get from that hope and admonish each other, encourage each other, and then be patient with all. The one thing I am trying to teach my congregation is the power of patience. I think I say it in every marital counseling issues that we're dealing with, people who have their families trapped in some weird religion, or weird church organization, or the unbeliever, or they've got an unbelieving spouse, the thing that the gospel can provide and should provide is patience because we are waiting for Christ's return and we're waiting for God to do His work here on earth. Even 2 Peter 1 describes this. The capacity for patience and godliness and longsuffering are the acts of the fruits of the Spirit that we are to add to our faith. And then it says if these are missing or lacking, you have forgotten that you've been cleansed from your former sins. So a strong grasp of the gospel leads to a strong capacity in meekness, gentleness, and patience.  
  
Justin Perdue: When you say that, I can't help but think about 1 Timothy 1:15 and 16 where Paul talks about how patient Jesus has been with him. So then his word to the saints is to consider how patient He will be with you as well.  
  
And I agree, brother, that the gospel should help us all be patient with one another because we consider how patient the Lord has been with us, and now we're going to be patient with each other; we're going to play the long game and we're going to be longsuffering when it comes to our dealings with others.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In Romans 14:1, Paul says, "As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but do not quarrel over opinions." This is why you will not see us in the Facebook group often jump into dumb stuff. The longer they listen and the stronger their faith will get, these quarrelsome things will go away.  
  
Justin Perdue: True. Ephesians 4:1 and following. Many will know that the first three chapters of Ephesians are all about the grace of God and the mystery that's been hidden for ages in God, that is the plan of redemption that Jesus has accomplished—and it's just absolute soaring, glorious stuff of what God has done for us, what Christ has accomplished for us, the security that we have in Jesus and the inheritance that we are awaiting, and the fact that we've been promised this wonderful kingdom that the Lord is just delighted to give us. That's the first three chapters of Ephesians.  
  
And then Paul transitions in the last three chapters, as it's divided in our modern translations, to exhort and encourage the church. In light of all that, here's how we live together. How does he start? I remember when I preached through Ephesians and I got to this section, I set up the first sermon in Ephesians 4 with this question, and I think it's relevant for now: if you were to write a letter to a church about how they're to live together in light of everything that you've ever read, everything that you've ever heard, everything that you've ever been taught, how would you start that letter? How would you begin it? Here's how you're to live with each other. Let that sit in your mind and then consider how Paul begins. "I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you've been called." Walk in a way that is commensurate with the gospel. And he goes on to describe it: "With all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."  
  
What does Paul say to a church? How do you live together? What's the most important stuff that would mean that we're walking in a way that's commensurate with the gospel? We're walking in a way that makes sense in light of what Jesus has done for us: with humility, gentleness, patience, bearing with one another in love, pursuit of unity. There we have it.  
  
Those things should mark mature, strong Christians. If we're talking in those terms, if you're going to be one of those, then these things—humility and gentleness toward your brothers and sisters, patience with your brothers and sisters, bearing with one another in love (which is just another way to say be longsuffering), be patient, love each other even when it's hard because people are going to fail and people are gonna be stupid and all those kinds of things. Pursue unity; don't be dividing over everything, don't bicker, don't bite and devour each other, but pursue unity. That's what the strong and mature among us need to be about doing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He goes on to explain that and the rest of the chapter—which we have probably mentioned on every episode ever in the history of the podcast because I've been in love with Ephesians for my entire ministry—but Ephesians 4, he goes on to describe that maturity built up into Christ is not an individual effort, but it's a corporate effort. Not only is a strong Christian one who cares for the needs of others, but the way in which one becomes a strong Christian, to do that is by others.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's through the corporate ministry of the church, which is going to include pastors and teachers that the Lord has given to teach sound doctrine which gives us stability and keeps us from being knocked around. And it is through every member of the body playing his or her part, so that we together, when the body is functioning properly, as the text says, we build ourselves up in love.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Now this is probably mind-bending from many people who are listening and it's probably very complicated. Justin, one of the things that you and I are facing is the longer we describe biblical Christianity, which is not me and Jesus, but it's Jesus and his body—that is biblical Christianity -people are struggling because the church has just failed. Let's just be frank here. The church has failed. I was on the phone with a pastor yesterday. Everybody in California is moving to Tennessee for whatever reason. I am not kidding—it is a weird sensation. You cannot rent a house or buy a house because there are none available; all the Californians took them up. I'm glad they're here because they're all in my church. We had nine families from California visit in one day at our church.  
  
The struggle has been people hear what we're saying, and they want to experience that, but the churches that they're in, they're not experiencing what we're describing. Not even on a simple level. The emphasis of the church is not on the corporate gathering or the corporate caring for each other; the emphasis is a pietistic, individualistic, go-home-and-try-harder emphasis. I get how that's a struggle when you hear what we're saying and you want to go apply it. In many ways, it's really hard to do that because of the context that you're finding yourself in—you can't. We understand that struggle.  
  
But there comes a moment where you, if you believe this strongly enough, if you're convicted by this, something's got to change. You either try and change the context that you're in or you change the context, meaning you got to go to a different one.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think that one of the ways that the church has failed—and I think this is been evident in the things that we've been saying today—is that the church has given us the impression, at least, there's at least an implicit message of this, if not an explicit one often, that what the Christian life is about is our own individual strength and growth. That, I would say, is a very American perspective. That's a very modern, obsessed-with-self kind of perspective, that what really matters is my own growth and my own arrival. We have absolutely lost the biblical emphasis of, like you said a minute ago, this is not about me and Jesus—this is about us and Jesus.  
  
I was having a conversation with a brother who I love dearly in our church and he's going through some hard times. This has just popped into my brain and I feel like it's applicable here and encouraging. He was talking about any number of things, we were talking about any number of things sitting on the tailgate of my truck. At one point, he is lamenting this: "I feel like right now, my faith would not exist if it were not propped up by other people around me." And he was saying that as though that was a really bad thing. And I said, basically, "Amen, brother." I said, "Do you hear what you're saying? Do you hear yourself talk?" Because he and I have had some conversations recently about why we need the church. I said, "Why do we need the church?" He said, "Brother, it's almost like that's how the Lord set it up. It's almost like God meant for it to be that way." There are going to be times in all of our lives where if it were not for the brothers and sisters around me, more pointedly who are carrying me and I am propped up on them, I don't know that I would even have faith. That's how the church is designed to function. We need each other far more than we realize. And that's not to say that we don't need Christ and the Holy Spirit; of course we do. But Christ and his Spirit minister to us through the church. We will know Jesus most tangibly in this world through the church, and through our brothers and sisters in the local church that we're a part of.  
  
We just don't think in those terms. We often tend to think that there's something wrong with me if I need other people so desperately. No, you actually are starting to understand it. We are all clinging to each other as we all cling to Jesus.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Let me just read to you the exact words from Hebrews, "But exhort one another every day, as long as it's called "today," that none of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confessing firm to the end." So he's saying we encourage each other to share in Christ, and we hold on to that to the very end because that's what's going to save us. So a strong Christian is one who has concern for others, but also a strong Christian, as Justin just said, is one who knows his strength does not come by his individualism, but his strength comes in numbers. It's the gathered body that finds our strength as we share in Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen. And obviously it comes from God through the means of the saints. That's why we'll say things that sound flat out insane to people. For example—I believe this with all my heart and I know you do too, John—that assurance of salvation is a community project. That sounds bananas to people. Maybe this is even more scandalous to say: sanctification is a community project. Growth in the faith. I'm not saying that the Lord doesn't do anything in us when we're alone or in our private time. Don't hear me say that. But I am absolutely confident, on the basis of the New Testament, that the primary way that we are grown, sustained, and assured is in the corporate context of the church, like you just read from Hebrews, as we encourage and exhort and admonish one another, we all cling to our confession and we all claim to our hope that we have been given in the Lord Jesus Christ, and we point one another to him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It is a scary concept to think that I have to trust in something outside of myself in order to accomplish the thing that God has given me. We don't want to hear that. And I get it. I love my church and Justin loves his church; I told Justin that if I ever get out of ministry, I'll move to Asheville to be a part of his church. Our churches are so full of problems and all kinds of messes, but the one thing we get right is we get the gospel right. We are starting to understand community and sharing in Christ. Our church is starting to see this.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. It takes time. I'm over five years in, you're over three years in—this doesn't happen overnight. You can't microwave this.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No, because we had to change people's perspectives of churches that they've come from. We do have new converts in our context, but we're also in the Bible belt so we're also dealing with a lot of people who grew up in Christianity. We have to reprogram people to not trust themselves. You are going to be deceived by sin and it will entangle you.  
  
I think it's so interesting when someone comes into the counseling with us and we start unraveling the problem—they confess their sin, we start talking about how it was caused, and the solutions we hand them are not isolated steps. The end goal is to allow the church to now carry this with you to the end, and it terrifies people to think other people are going to know about this. How else do you think you're going to get help? I don't have the ability to carry this by myself as the pastor.  
  
As a matter of fact, Paul doesn't say in Galatians 6 that pastors need to carry the burdens of the church. He says "you who are strong," not pastors. Paul is writing to the congregation saying the congregation is to do that.  
  
Justin Perdue: And then tells them to bear one another's burdens. It's very clear that that's an encouragement and an exhortation to everybody.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. To go back to Ephesians 4, he says the pastors and teachers are designed to equip the church for the work of ministry.  
  
Justin Perdue: Equip the saints for the work of ministry so that the body will grow and mature and build itself up in love.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Part of the Reformation that has to take place is not only theology, which Justin and I are heralding rest in Christ, but the transformation and reformation that must happen is we've got to get back to the biblical perspective of the church so that people can find rest again—and they can truly.  
  
Justin Perdue: And the gospel that we herald and the doctrine that we teach and confess in our respective churches drive that kind of culture in the church.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. There's a massive drive for social justice on all levels right now in almost every brand of Christianity that is out there. Everybody's throwing out the virtue signaling for racism and for everything that's going on. The church now is focusing outward, but it's leaving all of its members behind and they're being exhausted by all of this. I think it's easier to be involved in social justice movements because it's at a distance, and you can see immediate movement towards a change.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's easier to be involved in movements of social justice than it is to just love people in the church.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Because some people's weaknesses and failures... there is no improvement.  
  
Justin Perdue: There's not a fix. This is a limp that they're going to walk with for the rest of their lives, and they need to be loved.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. The burden of people in my church is their spouse left them or their child died or they were abused; that's a burden that cannot be fixed but can only be carried. Those are the things that don't sell. You don't do conferences on those. Our first conference should be on how to carry the burdens of other people.  
  
Justin Perdue: We may get into this more in the SR podcast, but things like conferences and short-term mission trips and stuff like that, it's easy to get excited about those things. It's easy to get people fired up and geeked up about them. They're just sparkle and fade type of things. The difficulty and the real marrow of the Christian life is what we are talking about today; it's locking arms with other fallen human beings and loving one another as we so often limp our way by the Holy Spirit's power toward the Celestial City. We're just trying to love each other in such a way that we help one another to trust Christ and die with dignity—and that's just not a sexy message for many people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Christianity really is moving from one Super Bowl to the next—we're just looking for that one high.  
  
Justin Perdue: If you're saying American Christianity, then I agree with you completely.  
  
Even the movement thing that you're talking about, Jon. There's a reason why every 18 to 24 months, there's something new.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's like we have to find motivation for what we're doing.  
  
Justin Perdue: If you read the Christian blogosphere and you just go back over the last 15 years, I promise you that you'll find five to eight big issues. Every four years you've got politics—the election cycle. But then there's been a number of other things sprinkled in from various issues of social justice, whether that's having to do with gender stuff or race stuff. There was a big emphasis on sex trafficking years ago.  
  
Again, we should pursue justice. Amen. But there's always gotta be a new thing, it seems, that people can pay attention to.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The reason why there's always a new thing is that modern Christianity is just one epic failure after the next because we aren't paying attention to Scripture. There has been no success. You can't even call numbers success because then Joel Osteen is the most successful strong Christian on the planet because he's got one of the biggest churches in the world. Numbers are not success. When Paul describes a successful Christian or church, he is not describing these things that are changing culture or overcoming. We're always going to have social issues. We're always going to have problems. But when he describes a successful strong Christian, he describes something that is just not talked about today.  
  
I want to speak to the pastor out there and the Christian worker who's been faithfully serving in their ministries year in and year out: success has nothing to do with the books you write, the podcasts you make, and the number of people in your church. That is not what success is. A successful pastor or a successful Christian is one who gets down and carries and cares for, and is patiently longsuffering with people day in and day out. No matter how many people those are—if it's one, two, or 5,000, it does not matter. But you can go to bed at night and say, "You know what? According to 2 Peter 1, I was an effective Christian today because I cared for people. I cared for them and that's what my job is." I'm a good Christian not because of the sins I conquered—I'm not saying you can live in sin—not because of all of the things I did spiritually. No, we cared for the failings and the weak and those who are suffering and we carried burdens. I can die as a man going, "You know what? I did what God asked me to do, which is to care for the people around me in my church. That's what I've been called to do. I'm a successful pastor."  
  
Justin Perdue: And God has given me Christ's very own righteousness and has dealt with my sin so that I am set free to do that work without fear of condemnation and judgment.  
  
A couple of thoughts for me to close—and I realize it's not exactly related to what you just said, but I hope this makes sense.  
  
Two big ones: number one, back to that whole idea of a survey. If you were going to fill one out, what should mark a Christian? If we don't put love for the brethren, then we are flat wrong when it comes to what the Bible reveals. Jesus himself says in John 13: how is the world going to know that we're Christ's? It's by the way we love each other. And then John picks that up in his first epistle, in chapter two, verses seven and following, where his exhortation is to love each other. This is the commandment and this is what the redeemed do. So we need to talk in those terms.  
  
The second thing is related. If we're going to really love one another and get down low and bear each other's burdens, it requires a lot of things that we've been talking about today: humility, patience, gentleness, and the like. If that's going to characterize us in the church, we've got to get rid of self-righteousness because self-righteousness and humility, gentleness, patience, compassion don't go together. They're like oil and water.  
  
I said this in a conversation this week, and this is kind of where I'm going to conclude my thoughts on this people think in the church: people think in the church today that the epidemic that's plaguing us is nominalism, that the problem is that there are too many false converts or there are too many Christians in name only. That's the issue for them. I think that's a pretty myopic and short-sighted perspective. The problem that has always existed in the church from the jump, regarding the New Testament, is self-righteousness—people trusting in their own works, trusting in their own righteousness, going back to the law. It manifests itself in a number of ways, but that's the issue.  
  
I said this to a guy this week: my main objective in terms of what I want to see in all of our lives is I want to make it my mission to destroy self-righteousness at CBC, and I want us to trust in Christ's righteousness alone and despair of our own. If that actually starts to happen for us, guess what's going to be produced? This stuff: love, compassion, patience, gentleness, and charity toward the weak and toward the struggler, rather than this kind of posture that we all contend to have where we look at the weak and the struggler and we say, "You should be better by now. You shouldn't be doing that."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Amen. We're gonna end this podcast and we're going to move over to our next one, which is called Semper Reformanda. This is a new ministry that we started for the purposes of those who want to join in what we're doing. If you want to be a part of the Reformation, you want to see change happen, then we'd encourage you to join us. It's two parts: we do a podcast and then we also have a ministry where you can gather with other listeners and talk about the podcast each week. We have an app for it, so you can join. Once you join, you can download our private podcast feed and then join a local group. We already have 20 groups we've started around the country and we're working on doing more. We have several online groups and while you're waiting for your local group, you can join in. We have a great time discussing the podcast.  
  
Today, Justin and I are going to head over there and we are going to talk about parachurch failures as it relates to the marks of a strong Christian. It's going to be a fun conversation. We'll see over there.  
  
For those of you that won't make it with us, we'll see you next week.

---

### Biblicists Beware!

*Published: June 23, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/biblicists-beware*
*Tags: Biblicism, Christ in the Old Testament, Typology*

Biblicism might sound like a good thing...but it's not. Biblicism is a methodology that tends to introduce confusion and mystery into the Scriptures where there isn't any. It also tends to confuse doctrinal and theological categories such as law/gospel distinction and faith versus works. Jon and Justin consider these things and more in this episode.

Semper Reformanda: The guys discuss how biblicism is related to theonomy and unhelpful views on the nation of Israel. And, as a bonus, we get into a little bit of eschatology.

**Resources:**  
Episode: [Is the whole Bible about Jesus?](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-the-whole-bible-really-about-jesus/)   
Episode: [Is your theological system any good?](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-your-theological-system-any-good/)  
Series: [Covenant Theology series](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCfzmujnlHo&list=PL5OjtM2rVrI30Net4GA-ZeC4BJd65UA4-)  
Book: ["Living in God's Two Kingdoms" by David VanDrunnen](https://amzn.to/2T0r2wC)

SUPPORT Theocast: [https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/](https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video%5Fdescription&redir%5Ftoken=QUFFLUhqbkZvNHpvdFZLNjVXZ1A5MWRrUmdjc210VXZFQXxBQ3Jtc0tuVGdiVXBYZVVnNkJzUGhLamh2UDhGanFWU2FBamdmdmZ6amd5S1Jibk5mYmF1U1doVl95X1RCZzdtSmFhNjMwNFBQd0ZTU19TNW8wWXpmTDV6YU45b3dvVFVjdjlvSjQ0SU5NSXpSeS1TbTJ6LV8xQQ&q=https%3A%2F%2Ftheocastorg.wpengine.com%2Fgive%2F)

https://youtu.be/Dd-b7t1Ht8A

**Podcast Transcript**

Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we are going to be explaining what biblicism is. There's a lot of theological confusion and categories and systems and theologies that have been birthed out of biblicism. We're going to explain to you what it is, how to refrain from it, and how to spot it when you see it. Stay tuned.

Today is a podcast we probably have been needing to do for a long time and we reference it often.

Justin Perdue: We even promised to do a podcast on it multiple times.

Jon Moffitt: I know. The real estate on the podcast is very small so we have to be choosy on what we pick.

Biblicism is a word. I saw someone use it the other day, saying, "I'm a biblicist." Someone should tell him not to say that.

Justin Perdue: It's not a badge of honor.

Jon Moffitt: It's a negative thing and we're going to explain to you why. Someone may think, "Why would 'Bible' and '-ism' be a bad thing?" Typically, "-ism" isn't good. Not always the case; Calvinism isn't necessarily bad—it has gotten a bad rap—which I just did an introduction to that on Ask Theocast. Check that out.

But to stay focused: biblicism. Justin, give us a quick definition of what it is. Then we are going to work through about five or six examples of what happens when you don't use Scripture properly, or you're a biblicist, this is what it ends up producing.

So what's a good definition, a simple definition, of a biblicist for our listeners?

Justin Perdue: Let me define it in a simple way, and even use pop level accessible language in talking about this. You already alluded to it once when you said a person would describe themself as a Bible person. Another way that you hear this commonly presented is people will say, "no creed but Christ", or, "no confession but the Bible". People will say that the only thing that we need to use is Scripture and any kind of framework outside of the Bible, or any tools outside of the Bible are not useful; it's not faithful or it's not responsible to use such things to understand the Scripture. And so you end up getting this kind of a situation where people will say that if the text does not say it explicitly, then we cannot preach it and we cannot teach it.

Jon Moffitt: Or the reverse is true: "The text explicitly said it, therefore I'm going to preach it."

Justin Perdue: Sure. We're going to give illustrations of this, like you said, in broad categories and the like.

What ends up happening is you make the Bible sound very schizophrenic because you quote chapter and verse in isolation and you don't interpret that verse within its broader context, even maybe within the book that it's situated in, let alone within the epoch of redemptive history that it's situated in, or let alone the entire Bible. And so you end up introducing mystery and tension into the Scripture where it does not exist, and you end up introducing things that sound contradictory and really confusing your listener when the Bible—rightly understood on its own terms with appropriate theological systems in place—is not contradictory. It is not confusing. There is going to be mystery, but we want to put the mystery in the right place.

Biblicism is dangerous on a number of levels because as you're going to hear us talk about, there really are hardly any key areas of doctrine that would not be compromised or confused by a biblicism. If you're using biblicism and you're a biblicist, you're going to confuse almost every major doctrinal category.

Jon Moffitt: Can I give an example here? A simple one would be Colossians 1:15: he is the firstborn of all creation. You could conclude that Jesus is born, or even is a created being, and I would even dare say the Trinity, if you do not allow all of Scripture to inform you about the nature of who Christ is. Many biblicists in the past have become heretical. Arian would be a great example of this, where they isolate texts and they don't allow the analogy of faith or all of Scripture to speak into a theological position or a particular text. A good example of this is that there are many people, even in recent days, who do not understand the nature of Jesus because they read individual texts and say, "Well, that's what it says. I'm going to take it literally in English without even using biblical language. That's exactly what it means in the English. That's exactly what it means. Therefore, that's what I believe."

Justin Perdue: Proof texting is an example of biblicism where you cite chapter and verse in isolation to prove a point. That's a common mistake that people make. Maybe a humorous way to put this is when you get people really worked up about these things and they will say, as I alluded to earlier, "I have no confession but the Bible and no creed but Christ," as they wave their study Bible in your face. What do you think those study notes are other than an exercise in systematic theology and biblical theology and everything else that people seem allergic to?

We did an episode a while back, Jon, something along the lines of is your theological system any good? That would be a useful episode for people to go back and listen to because we are going to contend today that the Scriptures present to us certain frameworks and systems of theology that come up out of the text that we then can utilize to better understand the text. A couple of those are going to be the redemptive-historical framework, and for us as Reformed guys, a covenantal framework of the Bible. Those things are really helpful. And a biblicist is going to press really, really hard against both of those things. They're gonna say, "That's the system that you're imposing down on the Bible and you shouldn't do that. You're being irresponsible in the ways that you're understanding and interpreting the Scripture." Hopefully, we're going to demonstrate how, if anything, biblicism is the much more dangerous and irresponsible perspective today.

Jon Moffitt: I do a lot of internet research for things and recently I'm doing a series on Calvinism for Ask Theocast and just reading different arguments here and there. And the proof texting on either side, the Calvinist or free will...

Justin Perdue: Just to be very clear, there are people that could consider themselves to be Reformed who can be biblicists from time to time. We want to be fair. Anybody can be a biblicist. I'm sure you and I have been at certain points, not meaning to be.

Jon Moffitt: What we're arguing is that being able to identify biblicist tendencies or passages that we may have interpreted in the past where we have not allowed context and tried and true theological categories.

Let me give you this one illustration. It's the most simple one that I've always used. When you read any text of Scripture that has relation to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit—if you are an evangelical who's been trained in a good church, you never read those without understanding that that is one in three. Another way of saying that is you're reading it by a theological system called Trinitarianism. It's important that you do so because it helps you fully understand that this isn't one God working in opposition or in isolation to the other gods, because we're not polytheists—we're monotheists; _poly_ meaning multiple, _mono_ meaning one. Where are monotheists who believe in a Trinity. It is a complicated system, but it's important to believe that because Jesus will say things like "I and my Father are one." These have to be read in a Trinitarian context.

I have met biblicists who will allow a Trinitarian context to be set on the text, but that's as far as they will go. They won't allow any other theological systems because "it's not biblical", yet they allow the Trinitarian system to guide them. It's not the only theological system in the Bible presented to us clearly in the text. We're going to argue for a couple others here in just a minute.

Justin Perdue: One of the categories that's most important that Jon and I are convinced of—and we're not alone amongst the Reformed in seeing this—is that biblicism really just botches the distinction between law and gospel. There are a number of places we could go. I'm mindful of several examples in the life and ministry of Jesus where people will cite Christ in terms of chapter and verse, in terms of what God requires out from the lips of Jesus himself and say, "See? There it is. There's the road to salvation. That's the way of salvation." When Jesus has in fact been actually speaking a message of law, like, "Here is how you inherit the kingdom of God. Here's what you need to do in order to be in a right relationship with God." People will say that's somehow a part and parcel of the good news.

One of the greatest examples of this is a large section of Scripture called The Sermon on the Mount, where people will say things like The Sermon on the Mount is gospel, to which we would say no. A much more careful reading of that text—a redemptive-historical reading of that text, and a reading of that text with an eye for law and gospel distinction—would actually lead you to conclude that that sermon is a sermon on the law, not the gospel, in terms of what God does require of us, not just at the level of outward conformity, but at the level of the heart, mind, desires, and everything else. That becomes quite clear as Jesus begins to discuss the law pointedly in Matthew 5:17 and following: here is what you've heard, but here is what it actually means for you. And he more or less damns everybody who hears him by saying, "You think you've done okay, but you haven't; you haven't kept the law. This is what the Lord requires of you. In fact, you need to be perfect like your heavenly Father is perfect." That confusion of law and gospel and the life of ministry of Jesus is a big deal.

Jon Moffitt: The gospel is the way in which the Bible presents its message or information, but it also is a theological category. The word "gospel" is a very closed tight knit bubble. There's only so much that can be in there, and if you add anything into it, you are now changing what the gospel is. This is why Paul gets very upset and even says, "If anybody comes to you and starts teaching you anything other than what you've already been taught, adding to the gospel," Paul is arguing for the clarity and he's saying, "this is encapsulated and cannot be changed. It's been set forth." You have to read every passage of the Bible with a clear understanding of gospel, because if you don't, then you will get "glawspel"—you get the law and the gospel together. So the gospel must be clarified.

A great example of this is the rich young ruler, which we use in the past as an example. "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus gives him what he needs to do if he wants to inherit it, like if he wants to receive it by earning.

Justin Perdue: Jesus says, "If you would be perfect."

Jon Moffitt: That's not gospel, that's law. When you understand gospel, and you have the category of gospel and you're holding that lens in your mind, and then you read Jesus, you go, "Jesus didn't give him gospel, but what do we do?" The biblicist will say "No, Jesus answered the question; therefore, it's good news."

Justin Perdue: Jesus just told people what they need to do to inherit eternal life so we need to go about the business of doing it.

Jon Moffitt: That is, to forsake everything. We need to sell all our possessions.

Justin Perdue: That is the conclusion of the biblicist when law and gospel are confused.

Another great example from the Old Testament: the prophet Micah, chapter six. The context in Micah 6—the Lord begins that chapter by indicting his people. They're guilty. They stand condemned before Him and then the prophet goes on in verse six and following of Micah 6 to write these things. He's hypothetically speaking for the people here: "With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high?" And sense the sarcasm here: Lord, you're extreme; what do you require? "Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my first born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?" And then Micah says, "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?"

Now, what people do with that passage is they read that and they say, "See? Here it is. The Lord is not satisfied with empty ritualistic religion. He is not interested in people's sacrifices. What he is interested in is the true religion of doing justice, loving kindness, and walking humbly before it." And so now you need to be a true religion, an old time religion kind of person, who is characterized by the doing of justice, the loving of kindness and the walking humbly before your God, and the Lord will be pleased with you. Again, that's biblicism. The prophet there is not giving people a message of gospel either; he's telling folks that a better understanding of what the Lord requires actually is this heart level reality. It's not external conformity to a written code, but it's a heart level reality of doing justice and loving kindness and walking humbly before your God. Nobody's ever done it well enough. That's the thing.

This is where you go to that verse. Micah 6:8 is often posited as an Old Testament presentation of the gospel. It's not. It's an Old Testament presentation of the law very similar to how Jesus presents it in the Sermon on the Mount and other places in his ministry. Learn what this means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice."

Jon Moffitt: I believe with all my heart that God blesses righteousness. He does not lie. It reflects who He is. Paul tells us there is none righteous and our good works, according to Jeremiah, are compared to really disgusting, filthy rags. Those are important. They're not in opposition to each other.

Justin Perdue: You just beautifully segued to another category. Law and gospel are massive. This one is at least as important and it is the confusion between faith and works. Biblicism is notorious for muddling this up to the high heavens. How is it that we're justified? How is it that we're finally saved even? Is it by faith or is it by our works? The classic text for me is Romans 2\. In this context, Romans 2-3 are really illustrative.

Paul has already indicted all the brilliant Gentiles at the end of Romans 1\. Then he begins, at the beginning of Romans 2, to talk to everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, because we all pass judgment on other people for not meeting our own standards. If people don't meet our standards and we pass judgment on them, we need to realize that we don't meet our own standards and thereby we condemn ourselves with our judging. If we haven't even met our own standards, how much less so have we met God's standard? We misunderstand God's kindness, not understanding that it's meant to lead men toward repentance.

And then Paul goes in Romans 2:6 and following, and as the Reformed theologian Robert Haldane once said, you either leave Romans 2:6 and following a Protestant or a Romanist—and I think he's right. There's no middle ground here in terms of how you can interpret it. And let me say this kindly, but sincerely: if you pick up a Romans commentary, there are a lot of guys who otherwise are pretty reasonable who absolutely lose their minds when it comes to Romans 2:6-13.

Let's just read a few of these verses and talk about what biblicists do with it, and then talk about how we should understand it in the context of Romans. Romans 2:6; this is true about God: "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified."

What you hear people say—again, otherwise pretty orthodox, like sound teachers, Protestants—they come to Romans 2:6-13 and they'll go, "We know that we are justified by faith, but somehow—you can see it right here it says in the text—somehow our works will factor into our final salvation, because it says so right here that God will render to each one according to his works. Those who do good, He's going to reward with eternal life. Those who do evil, He's going to punish with wrath and fury." No. That's not the way to interpret that passage, somehow mysteriously our works factor into our final salvation, because this question has to be asked in the broader context of Romans: what is Paul doing? There's a flow of his thought that's going to culminate in Romans 3:21\. He's arguing that everybody has judged themselves and judged others. We don't need our own standard, let alone God's. God is an impartial righteous judge who rewards those who do good and punish those who do evil.

The problem though is that nobody's good. Because he's going to go there in Romans 3:9 and the following: "Nobody is good. There's not one righteous. No, not one." We should be thinking we are all damned. How can anyone be saved? Which is why he says in verse 21 and following: "But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe." He concluded that whole section of his argument in verses 19 and 20, where he says that the law condemns everyone, Romans 3:19, and verse 24, by works of the law, no human being will be justified in His sight because the law only crushes people. But yet, in a biblicism kind of way, we go to Romans 2:6, and we go to Romans 2:13, and we quote it and say, "Ah, but guys, we've got to work for this. We got to do something. Even though we're saved by faith, somehow our works factor in." And that's just an irresponsible presentation. What does it do? It confuses the nature of the gospel itself and robs the saints of assurance.

Jon Moffitt: This is another way of saying this: understanding the nature of man and understanding the gospel are two categories we have to hold in both hands as we read every text. We know from scripture that we are in Adam, meaning that we have received the curse of Adam which is that our spiritual nature, the capacity to love and obey and please God, to trust in Him, has been cursed unto death. Paul describes it as being dead cause we've had to go from death to life. Obviously we are not physically dead; he is speaking about the cursed nature that we have. So you cannot demand a cursed dead nature to do that which it has no capacity to do, which is to obey God.

This is even in James: the classic quote, "faith without works is dead." We really needle down into that. And if I am looking at someone who says to me, "I'm a Christian," and yet they don't see the necessity of producing good fruit in keeping with repentance and obedience, all that... "I don't need to do that. I just need to say a prayer and I'm good." I would agree that they are confused. James is even getting it out in the context saying, "You're saying you're a follower of Jesus, but the way that you are acting is contrary to that. And if you're unwilling to repent of that, then the faith you were claiming is a dead faith." At that moment, you don't call someone to do something they can't do. Because at that moment, you go, "Okay, you don't understand the gospel. This isn't a works issue; this is a gospel issue." Because those who have saving faith are going to obey.

Justin Perdue: It's a gospel issue, it's a union with Christ issue, and it's a regeneration issue. If you have been born again and if you are not just giving some kind of mental assent to some truth about Jesus, but you are trusting him, and you're hoping in him, that only occurs via the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. You have now been united to Christ and you will bear fruit. That's what the Scriptures say. But to confuse that, to invert that, to proof text it and say, "Faith without works is dead; show me your faith by your works," to then conclude, "We need to go about telling people to do good work so that they know they're saved." Wrong. That's not the conclusion that we draw. We go about preaching Christ. We tell people to trust Christ. Through their union with him, fruit will be produced. You can't invert that relationship, but biblicism confuses that relationship to no end.

Jon Moffitt: I'll just reference this here for two reasons: one, we have a podcast on it and two, we have a podcast coming. On repentance and biblicism, we did a needle down, focus in on that a couple of weeks ago. You can go back and listen to _What Is Repentance?_ We really unfold that from what biblicism is. I would also say lordship salvation falls into this, where a lot of the arguments that you will see again in the next coming weeks... we're going to give you some more examples on this, but I'll just say this now: I think lordship salvation is built upon a biblicism platform.

Justin Perdue: It completely is in that there's a collapsing of law and gospel. There's a confusion of faith and works and repentance. There's really a different definition of faith that is given in the lordship camp where obedience and repentance and a sincere desire to obey and all those kinds of things are woven into the definition of faith. And that is something that, historically, Protestants have been very careful to not do. And we'll talk about that in some subsequent episodes.

Jon Moffitt: One example that's like a precursor to that is as someone Reformed and even Calvinist, when you understand the depravity of man and the sovereign election of God as it relates to our salvation, the biblicism of lordship doesn't seem to work. I would agree with the fact that when Jesus saves me and brings me to new life, I am now owned by him—and I'm gladly thankful that he is my Lord. But I don't have the capacity to make that change within myself or determine that that is handed to me. It's not something that is given to me as if there's something I must do in order to be a child of God.

Justin Perdue: And the bottom line is that when you have been united to Christ by faith, you now—Romans 6:17—have become obedient from the heart. You actually do desire to obey God, but the desire to obey is not a piece of faith itself. The new birth that is worked by God produces faith and then the fruits of regeneration and faith are a desire to obey, amongst a whole host of other things. But you can't confuse that. We're going to talk more about that in the coming weeks and I'm excited for those conversations.

One of the last couple of big categories in the regular portion of the podcast is also a reference back to an episode. We did one on typology and types and shadows and all those kinds of things called _Is the Whole Bible Really About Jesus?_ Just to briefly pick back up on this and to help explain how biblicism is unhelpful here: we talk regularly about how the whole Bible really is about Christ, that it's about the plan of redemption that God has had since before the foundation of the world, that centers on Christ, that's accomplished through him, that's then applied to us by the work of the Holy Spirit—all to the praise of God's glorious grace. And so we interpret every passage of Scripture in light of that main message, in light of that main point.

We realize that the way that God has revealed His plan of redemption by farther steps through history, and in the pages of Scripture, there are all of these things that serve as types of something greater to come, their shadows and the substance is going to come. There are pointers to things that are going to come later that are ultimate, that will fulfill them. And so when we preach anything in the Old Testament, for example—I could think of a number of examples, the obvious ones are the Passover, when we preach the Exodus, the parting of the Red Sea, when we preach the day of atonement or whatever it may be, we're talking about those in light of Christ and what he would come to do. He's the Passover Lamb. He is the one who has atoned for our sin and removed it from us. He is going to deliver us not out of bondage to Egypt, but from bondage to sin and death and Satan. But we would argue preaching the entire Old Testament this way.

Sometimes people get really worked up when we preach in a very Christocentric, a Christ-centered way, from the Old Testament, a biblicist will say, "Brother, you are not giving appropriate attention to the original author's intent. Did Moses fully understand everything that you're saying about Jesus? Did David fully understand everything that you're saying about Jesus from the Psalms? Did Micah understand everything that you're saying about Christ?" Fill in the blank. A biblicist will rail against a Christ-centered sermon sometimes from the Old Testament because we are not doing justice to the original author's intention—to which I want to say this humbly, but I would stake my ministry on this: is it legitimate, for example, to preach baptism from Noah and the Ark? Yes. Peter makes that connection for us in 1 Peter 3\. But what should we preach when we preach a sermon on the Ark and the flood? We should preach salvation, we should preach baptism, and we should preach Christ as the emphasis of that passage.

What should we preach when it's the Passover or the day of atonement? We should preach Jesus. What about the temple? We were having this conversation before we hit record. There is an obsession in some circles with the temple and the rebuilding of the temple and all these kinds of things, and when we see the temple being built in the Old Testament—God's having a house built for Him where he's going to dwell with His people—when we see the tabernacle for that set up in the camp of Israel, we should be preaching Jesus from those passages. Why? Because Jesus shows up on the scene and says himself that he is the fulfillment of the temple. He is God's presence on earth. Then as he ascends and sends his Holy Spirit, the church is now the fulfillment of the temple. The Spirit of God Himself dwells in the church with His people and the like. Then in the new heavens and the new earth, there will be no temple because God will be there and the Lamb will dwell among us. There's no need for a temple anymore. This is how we should preach the temple. And there are going to be people who are going to be saying, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Should you preach the temple that way in the Old Testament?" Yes. If we're a Christian, we should.

Jon Moffitt: All of Scripture is Christian Scripture.

Justin Perdue: This is where I think I get really upset with biblicism, maybe as much as any place: Romans 2 and 3 get me worked up, but this stuff really works me up because people almost call into question whether we should preach Christ from the Old Testament from these things that prefigure him and point to him, as though it's, "Maybe you should, but that shouldn't be the emphasis of your sermon." The last time I checked, we are Christians and we preach Christian sermons, do we not? We want to read Genesis or Exodus or Micah or Esther as Christians, for crying out loud.

Jon Moffitt: I think there's a fear of allegorizing there. I remember when I was in Bible college and even in seminary, it's like, "Oh, we don't want to fall into that trap where we're allegorizing everything in the text and putting things in the text that aren't there." That's a legitimate argument: you can't force into the text things that aren't there. I would argue that if you got five points of how to be faithful like David...

Justin Perdue: Tell me where that is in the text.

Jon Moffitt: No, it's not in the text at all. Let me read you something real quick from Romans 15\. I think it will make your point, Justin. Paul says this: "We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me." And then Paul gives us the motivation—and it's interesting how he gives us motivation—pay attention to this in verse four: "For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction that through endurance and through encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope." So he's referencing Christ, he's referencing our needs to bear with the weak, and our motivation is the Old Testament leads us to hope. There is no way you can conclude that Paul isn't meaning hope in Christ because he just got done arguing for it in chapter 14... well, I would say all of Romans. The point of it is that anytime you see these New Testament writers referencing the Old Testament, they are referencing it as these are designed for endurance and encouragement because the Old Testament gives us hope. Because what is the Old Testament about? It's about Jesus. This is one more example of a text of interpreting the Old Testament for us.

Justin Perdue: I know we said this last week; I'm gonna say it again: whenever we do what we're describing, where we interpret and read and preach the Old Testament in this Christ-centered way, we're doing what Jesus told us to do and we're doing what the apostles did. Full stop.

I understand there's a danger of allegorizing everything, and that is not at all what we are advocating for; all we're advocating for is to read the Old Testament the way the apostles read and understood it. There are countless examples that we could give from Paul, from Peter, from the writer of the Hebrews, from John, where it's obvious that they see things in the Old Testament. If they were in a hermeneutics class in most modern day seminaries, they would get a failing grade for saying what they're saying. "Oh, what about the original author's intent? Did the Psalmist really mean that in Psalm 68? Were they really talking about Jesus's ascension and the giving of gifts, Paul, like you say in Ephesians 4? Or the rock from 1 Corinthians 10:4 referencing Exodus 17?" All of these things are just example after example after example of how the apostles read the Old Testament. The writer of the Hebrews—what's the sacrificial system about? What's the priesthood about? It's about Christ. It all pointed to him. Why would we go back to something that's been fulfilled in the Lord Jesus? What was Abraham about ultimately? He was justified by faith as a pattern for everyone who had ever believed the promises of God realized in the Messiah, and we would be saved the same way. This is how we should read all of these things. Jesus himself in John 3, the snake that's lifted up on a pole in Numbers 21—it's about him and how he would be raised up, and when we look to him and what he's done, we're saved.

Jon Moffitt: We could go on and on and on, but we are running out of time. We did have one left. We're going to leave it for the other podcast we're about to do. We're going to talk a little bit about eschatology and biblicism.

For those of you that are new and listening, we have a ministry called Semper Reformanda, "always reforming", and we started this as a way to connect with our listeners, but also to go to a deeper level. There are many who love what we're saying on Theocast but have questions and want to go to that next level of conversation. Justin and I step into a different role in that way, where we interact with our listeners a little bit more and we take this conversation to a little bit deeper level. And you can join us.

Semper Reformanda is two things: one, it's a podcast that we do, but two, it's also a community. It's an online community, and believe it or not, a local community. By now, our app is out and you can go and sign up to get our private podcast feed, and also join a group. Download our app and see what groups are available. You can join an online discussion group, or you do it over zoom, or you can do it locally in your town. Those are growing. I think we're over 20 plus so far. People are getting signed up to start their own. So if you want to learn more about that, you can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com.

Excited to continue this conversation. We'll see you next week.

---

### Is the Whole Bible Really About Jesus?

*Published: June 16, 2021 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-the-whole-bible-really-about-jesus*
*Tags: Biblicism, Christ Centered Preaching, Christ in the Old Testament, Christ-Centered, Typology*

Is the whole Bible really about Jesus? Here at Theocast, we believe that it is. Jon and Justin consider the pattern of Jesus and the apostles with regard to how they understood the Bible. The guys consider typology and how it is useful in understanding the Scriptures--and biblicism and how it is not helpful.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Justin talks about the thing that has most impacted his preaching. Jon and Justin then discuss how important it is to see that every promise of Scripture finds its fulfillment in Jesus.  
  
Resources:  
Episode: [Is Christ-Centered Preaching Dangerous?](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous/)  
"The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant & His Kingdom" by Samuel Renihan  
["Preaching Christ in All of Scripture" by Edmond Clowney](https://amzn.to/3pVT0pm)  
["The Unfolding Mystery: Discovering Christ in the Old Testament" by Edmond Clowney](https://amzn.to/3wtJQTL)  
  
FREE Ebook: [wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/primer](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/primer)  
  
SUPPORT Theocast: [https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/ ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/)  
  
https://youtu.be/KvOnPDF1P3M  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we are going to answer the question, "Is the whole Bible really about Jesus?" We don't like to bury the lead here at Theocast, and so our position is that yes, in fact, the whole Bible is about Christ and what he has accomplished on behalf of sinners in order to save us. We're going to have this conversation from a couple of different perspectives. We're going to talk about typology and how that works in the Bible. If you don't even know what typology is, don't worry, we're going to define it and try to explain it for you.  
  
We're also going to talk about Biblicism and how it is unhelpful to understanding the Scriptures accurately. Again, if you don't know what Biblicism is, stay tuned. We're going to try to explain it to you and help you see how it relates to this conversation.  
  
We really hope this is an encouraging and life-giving conversation for you, and that is a conversation that will open up the Scriptures and show you how from Genesis to Revelation, Jesus really is the point of it.  
  
The title of the episode is _Is the Whole Bible Really About Jesus?_ What we want to do today is answer that question. But we're really just pulling the curtain back here and having a conversation about a couple of different things—and I'm going to try to explain briefly what we mean by these terms and then we'll just kind of take-off and run with this.  
  
We're having a conversation today about typology and somewhat also about Biblicism. And so just briefly to define those terms for the listener: when we talk about typology, we are talking about the way that God reveals Himself, the way He reveals redemption—in particular, the way He reveals redemption through Christ in Scripture—where there are things that occur earlier on in biblical revelation, referred to as types, that are significant in and of themselves but they point to something that is greater, different, and ultimate. So those greater, different, ultimate fulfillments of the types are often referred to as antitypes. We're going to talk about examples of some of that today. But if the Bible is read appropriately in a typological way, we are going to see types and shadows and pointers to Jesus all throughout the Old Testament before Christ even shows up on the scene in the New Testament.  
  
If you think about, for example, the writer to the Hebrews and how he explains the fact that the sacrificial system, and so many of the other things that were revealed to Israel in the law, were ultimately about Christ. They were ultimately shadows and pointers to Jesus and the redemption that would be accomplished through him. That is a biblical example of typology. We're going to talk about some other biblical examples of typology in this episode. So we're having that conversation about how typology is really helpful in coming to the Bible, and it's helpful to us, in particular, in seeing Christ through all of Scripture.  
  
But then we're also going to be having a conversation about something referred to as Biblicism. The goal of a biblicist is a good goal; it's a good aim. It's admirable that you want to be a Bible person and only say things that the Scripture says, and you don't want to add to it or take away from it. That's a good aim. But oftentimes, the way that Biblicism presents itself is that if the text does not specifically and explicitly say something, that it just must not be true. And so there's a real concern in Biblicism for some of the systematic categories, the covenantal categories, the redemptive-historical categories that the Reformed have always had that help us to see Christ in all of Scripture. The biblicist gets very anxious about that. We're going to explain what we mean by that, too.  
  
Before you check out, if you're sitting here and you're thinking, "Oh my gosh. This is an academic conversation and this is something that's going to be over my head," it is not going to be. We're going to talk about this at a street level, as a couple of pastors who deal with the Scriptures regularly and are trying to teach the Scriptures to our people. This conversation ultimately is about seeing Christ in all of Scripture in ways that are legitimate and responsible, and really upholding what Jesus Christ himself says about the Bible, namely, that it's all about him. We hope that you come away from this episode more encouraged to study the Scriptures, more encouraged to sit under the Scriptures on the Lord's Day as you hear your pastor preach them to you, or if you're a pastor out there and you're more excited to get in the pulpit and herald Christ from any text in the Bible.  
  
I might just launch us off, Jon, in thinking about the words of Jesus Christ himself in Luke 24 and in John 5\. Luke 24, the road to Emmaus. Jesus is resurrected and he appears to a couple of his disciples and he says to them that they are slow of heart to believe everything that the Scriptures have revealed. Beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he explained to these disciples everything in Moses and the prophets that was written about him.  
  
Then in John 5, at a couple of different points, Jesus makes it very clear to his Jewish audience. He says to them, "You search the Scriptures thinking that in them you find eternal life; yet it is they that bear witness about me." And then he goes on later in John 5 to say they talk about Moses a lot, and, "if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me."  
  
This is the conversation that we're having today. I get excited for this because this has changed my Christian life. It has changed the way that I think about the Bible wholesale. This is probably the single greatest thing that informs my preaching from a week to week basis: it is the fact that all of the Scriptures from Genesis to revelation are about Christ and what he has done for sinners.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I was preaching through the book of John, and John is probably one of the greatest prolific writers when it comes to the Old Testament in terms of how much he references in typology, in referencing to ceremonies and the law. He mentions the Psalms and Isaiah a lot. He won't do a direct quote, but he'll even say things like "to fulfill scripture" to allow the reader to know what Scripture something is in reference to.  
  
To add to the Scriptures that talk about Jesus in the Old Testament, there's a couple more. You have Acts 8:35: "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus."  
  
Book of Acts. Let's do some math here. The New Testament has not been written at the moment; it's being recorded as past history. What Scriptures is he referencing? What is he talking about?  
  
Justin Perdue: Whenever we hear the apostles in the New Testament reference the Scriptures or Jesus reference the Scriptures, they're talking about what we call the Old Testament.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Philip is telling the eunuch about Jesus from the Old Testament, which I can tell you right now that Justin and I both can preach the gospel clearly from the Old Testament because the apostles did. We can use Old Testament text to preach Christ and we do, and we'll always do. We are not crippled by only having the New Testament in order to preach the gospel because what else was Philip using?  
  
Another verse that would be connected to this is Acts 18:28 where he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that Christ was Jesus. Again, Scripture has to reference the Torah, the Old Testament, and he's referencing the Old Testament to show that it is about Jesus. It's not one little reference. I know sometimes people say, "Well, you guys always quote Luke 24 and you're basing an entire theological system and way of reading the Bible based on one verse. It's not. There are multiple examples of New Testament writers using the Old Testament to teach us about Jesus. There is much that can be learned and should be learned about Jesus.  
  
Now, this is where understanding typology is so important. It took me a long time to understand this and so I'm going to say it in such a way that if you're brand new to Reformed theology, if you're brand new to redemptive-historical biblical theology or covenant theology, typology is really important. When someone said "type" and "antitype", my brain didn't have a category for that. So if you're smart unlike me and you already know it, you can fast forward the next 30 seconds. But if you're like me and you need help in these categories, the antitype thing is what threw me off.  
  
A type is an example or a picture of something, but not the reality of it. We use these illustrations all the time, but one of my favorite ones is if you go to a Mexican restaurant and you get that real big laminated menu. I love that the more expensive ones will have a picture of the burrito and underneath it, it says, "Not the actual size." Thanks for clarifying. But it's a picture; it's a type of the burrito. You look at it, anticipate it, and are excited about what you see, but the picture is not what you taste, it is not what sustains you, it is not what gives you energy. The substance, or the real burrito, is called the antitype.  
  
So when we say type and antitype, which we're going to give some examples here in the Old Testament, those are the theological terms for it. A great example of this is when Jesus says to Nicodemus, "as the serpent was raised in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." The serpent in the wilderness was a type, an example, a picture of what is going to happen to Jesus, because those who looked on the serpent and believed were healed, and those who looked to Christ on the cross and believed are also healed of their sins. That's a good example of type and antitype as it relates to Jesus being referenced in the Old Testament, pointing us towards the New Testament reality.  
  
Justin Perdue: Jesus, of course, picks up on that very thing in his conversation with Nicodemus in John 3\. The New Testament is replete with examples of this kind of thing being done by Christ and the apostles.  
  
You mentioned earlier how the apostles write what I might even call the apostolic pattern when it comes to this conversation. When we are saying that we read the Bible from a redemptive-historical perspective, meaning it's redemptive history with Christ at the center, and we read it in that Christ-centered way, and we read it with an eye for typology—types and shadows and pointers and fulfillment and all those things—all we are saying and all we are advocating is, "Hey guys, let's read the Bible. In particular, let's read the Old Testament the way that the apostles understood it and the way that Christ understood it." We're not coming up with anything new. We are looking to Christ, Paul, Peter, John, and the writer to the Hebrews, and we are just following their lead in terms of how they understood the Old Testament Scriptures to bear witness to Christ and the redemption that he would accomplish for sinners.  
  
This is maybe one of the more controversial pieces of this conversation: we have freedom to not only go to the texts that the apostles specifically reference, but we have freedom to read the entire Old Testament that way, because they have given us a pattern; they have shown us how to do it.  
  
For example, the way that Peter in 1 Peter 3 connects the ark and the flood and what happened there, to redemption and to baptism. That means that it is legitimate to now go back to the Old Testament as saints have done for a long, long time and see other passages, to use Peter's language, where the saints are brought safely through water. And we can see those things as a pointer to our baptism, through which we are united to Christ, we are sealed into him, and our sins are drowned in the waters of baptism because Christ ultimately has taken the judgment of God for us. We've died in Christ to the law.  
  
So Peter connects that in 1 Peter 3 to Genesis 6-8\. But then there are other ways that the saints have seen the same connection, like Exodus and the parting of the Red Sea, where God's people walk safely through water. People have said this is a pointer to baptism—they're entirely right about that. Because it's a pointer ultimately to the deliverance that God would accomplish for us through the Lord Jesus Christ.  
  
But a lot of times—again, talking about that Biblicism thing where it's gotta be on the face of the text and if the text doesn't say it, we shouldn't draw the conclusion—if you do that, if you go to the parting of the Red Sea in Exodus, where if you were to preach the flood from Genesis and you were just conclude that Moses, in writing about the ark and the flood, doesn't say anything about baptism, doesn't say anything about Jesus and the ark being a type of Christ, and so as you preach this, you think, "The original authorial intent must have been this thing and this is what I need to say." In order for you to do that, you have now divorced the account of the ark and the flood in Genesis 6-8, you have divorced that from the entire canon, you have divorced it from the entire context of the whole Bible, and have actually been irresponsible in preaching it if you do not preach Christ and baptism from Genesis 6-8.  
  
That's the really controversial thing, I think, to say here. There is such an obsession sometimes over original authorial intent in the Old Testament that we almost academically, thinking that we're smart, convince ourselves to not preach Christ from the Old Testament.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To go back to explain what you mean by authorial intent, for those who this might be new to if you didn't grow up a part of a church that does expository teaching or preaching, what Justin is getting at is that when an author like Moses sat down to write the history, inspired by the Spirit, there's a reason behind their writing. That's authorial intent. What's the intention of the author? You can see these things in the epistles, you can hear in the beginning when Paul says, "I'm writing you for this reason." Even in the gospels, you can see the introductions to the gospels and what they're writing them for. The argument has been—within conservative, evangelical Calvinistic churches—is that you cannot give any other application than the original intention of that individual author. What we mean by author is Paul, David, Moses, etc.  
  
There's a danger when you read Scripture in that way because it disconnects the Bible as if it's a library of books that are all of the same time period, and God is a part of them—but they're not all connected as if there was one theme.  
  
Our argument is that according to the New Testament, there is a theme and there is a driving message. We can go to Ephesians 1 and it literally says that before the foundations of the world, God made a _pactum_, a covenant, that there would be salvation promised to sinners. This was before the first mention of Scripture; this is before creation. We take great heart in that because Paul is saying there's a greater theme that's going on; there's a major theme of what all of Scripture is about. Paul thankfully gives us a good peek into that to say, "This is how you should read your Bible: from a redemption of sinners that unfolds through history." This is why we use the term that's been used for many years: redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture.  
  
So our argument would be the author of Scriptures, the intention of the author, which is God by means of the Holy Spirit. The authorial intent is redemption. And then you go down into the writer. I would argue the author is God, the writers are the humans; they're instruments. So the authorial intent is always God and His redemptive plan as revealed to us in Scripture. And then we go down and say, what did the writer say in their context? We don't want to interpret it in our own means saying, "Well, I can say whatever I want now because the writer just wrote something." No, the writer wrote it for a purpose, but it's not disconnected from all of Scripture and God's authorial plan, which was told to us before.  
  
Justin Perdue: A few comments here. 1 Peter 1:10-12 in that area. The apostle there makes it clear. I'll just read 1 Peter 1:10 and following: "Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preach the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look." That's 1 Peter 1:10-12\. What that is saying is that the prophets of old, as they wrote down things inspired of the Holy Spirit, did not fully, in their humanity, understand everything that they were writing. That right there has to be taken into consideration when we have this conversation about original authorial intent.  
  
Did Moses understand everything that he wrote completely in terms of how it pointed to Christ and would be fulfilled in Jesus? No, he didn't. Did Isaiah in Isaiah 53 fully understand what was going to happen? No, he didn't. So if you are going to govern yourself by what Isaiah or Moses or David or whoever understood then you're going to gut the Scriptures of their ultimate meaning that point to Christ and his work for sinners to save us. That's just one thing for us to keep in mind.  
  
Here are two examples that I think are very illustrative and perhaps provocative when it comes to this conversation. They are both from the pen of the apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 10, in particular, verse four is where I want to get. But I'm going to begin with chapter 10 in verse one and read it real quick. Paul says, "For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ." That is a reference to Exodus 17\. Now, in Exodus 17, what's happening? In verse four of 1 Corinthians 10, it's a reference to that chapter; in Exodus 17, the people had been brought out of Egypt, they've been brought through the Red Sea, and they are grumbling because they're thirsty. And Moses says to God, "What am I supposed to do with these people?" Basically. And God says, "I will stand before you there on the rock of Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink." and Paul is saying that that rock and the water that came out of it is about Jesus.  
  
Can you imagine in an Old Testament class or in a hermeneutics class, if a student in many seminaries today were to preach that text or to write an expositional paper on Exodus 17 and to ultimately make the point of that. "Well, Jesus is the point of this." You will get a failing grade in many seminary classes because that is irresponsible hermeneutics and exegesis of the text. But that's what the apostle Paul does.  
  
Another passage that perhaps is even more illustrative of what we're talking about is Ephesians 4:7 and following. Paul has just been talking about how there's unity in the church. Then he goes on to say, he's going to talk now about how each of us have been given gifts for the use of the body and for the building of the body. He says, "But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says," and he is referencing now Psalm 68, "'When he ascended on high he led a host of cap his, and he gave gifts to men.'" And then he goes on to talk about how that's ultimately about Jesus giving gifts to the church.  
  
If a person were to read Psalm 68, that psalm is about God being enthroned on Mount Sinai, traveling from the wilderness to Mount Sinai and being thrown on Mount Sinai. We would be looking at that again in an Old Testament class, an exegesis situation, or a hermeneutics class. And if someone were to stand up and say, "Hey, that right there—God being enthroned on the mountain—what that's ultimately about is Jesus Christ and his ascension. And then it's about him giving gifts to the church." Again, I think that many people would be rebuked for such an interpretation. I think Paul himself would have gotten an F in many seminary classes for saying that that's what this is ultimately about. He would be scolded to consider original authorial intent. "Paul, what are you doing?" These are the things that we're talking about, and we could give a dozen, 20, or 30 more examples like that from the New Testament and how the apostles write. And so all we're contending for today is for us to interpret the Scriptures just like Paul. Let's look to the Old Testament and when we preach the old Testament, let's preach it asking this question: where does this text stand in relation to Christ? It's so helpful because then we are kept from moralizing.  
  
Think 1 Corinthians 10, Exodus 17\. We can talk about the people grumbling, we can talk about our sin and all those kinds of things, and we can talk about God's provision for the things that people need. But ultimately, what are we going to leave people with? That God in His grace—not only has He already rescued people from bondage to Egypt, which is a pointer to the rescue that's going to come from our bondage to Satan and sin, not only has He brought the people safely through the Red Sea, which is a pointer to baptism and how we've been brought safely through water. But now He's sustaining His people in the wilderness while they are sojourners. And He is saying that the water that He gives for their sustenance is ultimately about Jesus Christ himself. That's what we can say. It's so wonderful. It's beautiful.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In Sam Reniham's book, _The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom_, chapter 13 on the mystery of Christ is really helpful in this because that is what we're dealing with: the revelation of the mystery of the Messiah and the final consummation where Jesus does finally show up from type to antitype, or from shadow to substance.  
  
I want to allow Justin and I to speak into this for a moment where it does change two things: I think it changes God in the way in which God interacts with you and His Word, and number two, I think it allows the Word of God to come alive. My kids love putting together puzzles. They're up there right now. It's summer break and they don't have school. I wake up and they're out there putting together a puzzle, which I don't do. To me, I'd rather read a book or something. Puzzles just seem puzzling to me. But if I were to go in there and flip the puzzle upside down where all the color is now gone and there are only shapes, they could painstakingly, and probably with not a lot of joy, put that together. It's going to be confusing and they could get the outer border and the frame down. But after that, it's just not gonna be as enjoyable because part of the puzzle is seeing the progress. That's how most people read the Bible; they don't see the picture, they don't have the box cover, and they are not looking at the live colors of the illustration. They hear about how powerful the Word of God is, they hear about how wonderful it is, but what they look at is a puzzle turned upside down. I can see the general idea; I know the corner pieces are obvious, but the rest of it doesn't make sense.  
  
What we're trying to say is once someone introduced to us the historical understanding—and this is how the Word of God has been taught and read for hundreds of years—all of a sudden, we couldn't stop putting the puzzle pieces together and seeing Christ come to life as the Old Testament reveals him.  
  
Justin Perdue: You just talked about power. People were told that the Word of God is powerful. Last I checked, Jesus Christ is the power of God: the gospel and the message of Christ and his cross are the power of God unto salvation. If the word of God is powerful, which it is, and if the word of God accomplishes its work, which it does, ought we not herald the one that the Word is about, who is described as the power of God, the wisdom of God, our Redeemer, our righteousness, our sanctification, and our redemption? Yes. We should preach him. I get geeked up about this, which is probably evident even on this podcast today.  
  
I'm going to continue to illustrate some of this just to maybe demonstrate my excitement over this and how this fires me up. I'm saying this publicly so I'm bound to this forever: if someone were to push me on my favorite book of the Bible, I usually say whichever one I'm reading and studying or preaching through at the moment. It's my favorite because it's on the front of my mind. But I think I am at a place finally in my life where if somebody told me to pick one book, it is unquestionably the book of Hebrews for me at this point because of this very reality.  
  
What's the book of Hebrews about? It's about Christ and how he's greater than everything and how he's the point of it all. The writer is telling people, "Don't go back to the law. Don't neglect such a great salvation and go back to the law. You know why? Because Jesus is greater than the law. He's greater than angels. He's greater than Moses. He's greater than Aaron. The law, the sacrificial system, the priesthood, and the whole nine yards: all of that was about Jesus Christ. He has accomplished your salvation. He has once and for all made an atonement for your sins. He is seated at the right hand of God in the heavens and he's coming back. He's got you and you've been given a Kingdom that can never be shaken. It's ultimately all about Jesus and what he's done for you. And so now, in full assurance of faith, draw near to the throne of God with confidence and boldness." What a wonderful message. That's one.  
  
Another one is John 6\. This just pops into my brain and it encourages me to no end. This illustrates our point too: when Jesus has given this whole business to people about how he's the bread of life, and how he's the bread that came down from heaven, he references the manna in the wilderness. He says your fathers were fed with bread from heaven. How many people, in preaching manna from the Old Testament, are gonna preach Christ? Because we should. As Jesus spoke about it, he said, "I am the bread that comes down from heaven. Just like your fathers were sustained in the wilderness by heavenly bread, you and your pilgrimage on this earth will be sustained by me. You need to eat my flesh and drink my blood because I am true food and true drink for you." He's pointing to the Lord's Supper, but ultimately he's talking about union with him, how he is our nourishment, and how he is what we need.  
  
This is just another example of how we often are not taught from the whole Bible everything that Christ understood the Scriptures to be saying about him. When I come to the Scriptures and when I sit under the Word, I need instruction on wisdom. I need instruction on things that I need to avoid doing because they'll wreck my life. I need instruction on things that I should pursue because it will be good for me. I need good teaching on God's law so that I understand what God requires and how I have not met the test. But ultimately, what do I need and what do you need when we come to the Scriptures? We need Christ proclaimed to us because he's the only hope for sinners—and he is everywhere.  
  
I've said this before and I just want to clarify. Forgive me for being excited about all this, but when we talk about preaching the Bible and understanding the Bible this way, we are not saying that the Bible is a _Where's Waldo?_ book, Jesus is Waldo, and on every page, we're trying to find him hidden underneath words and rocks and everything else. It's not what we're saying, but we are asking the questions of the text, always knowing that everything in the Bible is oriented toward and around Christ. And so then we preach that way and we understand it that way. To your point, Jon, it makes the Bible come alive.  
  
There's actually good news all throughout. Because if I'm only told about wisdom or if I'm only given law, there's no good news in that. Or if I'm only told that God is holy and God is good, or if I'm only told that Jesus is Lord, there is no inherent good news in that for me because I'm a sinner. You've got to give me the whole thing and you got to tie it together for me with Christ as my Savior.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If I were to hand you a drill that's got a screwdriver bit in it and there's no battery in it, and you're over there and you're twisting it, you're getting the job done. You're using it like a screwdriver. That's how most people see the Old Testament. They understand it's supposed to screw or unscrew something. Then I walk over, I pop a battery in, I hit a button and I say, "Watch this. Your mind is going to explode at the capacities and the abilities of how much more you're going to be able to accomplish." That is understanding the Old Testament in light of the power of the New Testament.  
  
One more passage I want to give as an example of this is 2 Corinthians 1:20 where it says, "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him." He just summarized the Old Testament. The Old Testament is just one massive unfolding promise. It started with Adam, clarified with Abraham, moving on to David and Solomon, and all the way through the prophets. And he says, "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory." So Paul in the beginning of his letter in 2 Corinthians, he's concluding for you that Jesus is the finality of all that has been written. He is it; he is the point. There's nothing wrong with asking how this promise is connected to the greater reality of Christ. So when we look at Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets and all of that, he says all the promises of God. All of them. If Paul didn't mean to say that, he should have clarified it like "some of the promises of God". But he says, "all of them" are pointed in a redemptive nature to a Person of redemption who saves sinners. It is exhilarating to go back and read a book full of, you can say fantasy, but it's not fantasy, but it feels like fantasy, because there's so many miraculous texts in there. It's Narnia on steroids.  
  
When you go, "Hey, this is God showing how He's going to fulfill the promise of a Messiah, and Paul already told us it's going to happen. So let's go back and watch it over," now you have one conclusion. You begin to read the Bible as one story, promise, and one covenant after another of God always being faithful. Even when the children of Israel went down to one person, God was still faithful to preserve His seed, to preserve His promise in the midst of debauchery and sin and absolute chaos. God is still in control. You look at the death of Christ, which is utter chaos, and yet John says that was according to the plan.  
  
Justin Perdue: Well, how many times does it look like the light is going out on redemption as you read the Scriptures? I just preached the account of Noah and the flood not long ago because we're in Genesis right now, and the line of the promise is down to one guy and his family. There are going to be other points like David and Goliath: is redemption about to be over if this giant kills this guy? What's going to happen? And that happens over and over again in the Bible. Ultimately that's about God and what He's doing—this is His movie and we should sit on the edges of our seats with our popcorn and jumbo Coke ready, watch it, and behold what our God has done.  
  
This is maybe my closing thought: let's just say that you watch a really good movie for the first time and you're watching all these things unfold. Then you get to that point in the movie where this thing happens that makes everything that happened before it clear. It makes everything that happened before it obvious. Everything that you were watching for the last two hours was about this. It changes everything for you in terms of how you think about that movie.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Can I give one example? _The Village_.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. That's a good illustration of what we're discussing today. Jon, if you go back and watch _The Village_ tonight, you're going to watch it knowing that, and it's going to change how you see it, because you're going to identify all of these things throughout the movie before that revelation really occurs—and we read our Bibles that way now because we've been told the point of it all, and we've been shown how to read it by the apostles and by Christ himself. Why on earth would we go back and read the Scriptures that were written before Christ came as though he isn't the point? We shouldn't.  
  
It's kind of crazy. And I think it's just a joyful and joyous experience for people when you read and study the Scriptures, or you sit under preaching, where it becomes very clear that there are sermons about Christ all throughout the Old Testament. What a wonderful book the Bible is.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I know you're going to take us into the Semper Reformanda and explain what it is, but in there, I would like to talk about the dangers of not reading your Bible this way and how modern day history, through different biblical interpretation models that have been given to us, have actually caused pietism, legalism, doubt, fear, and anxiety when it relates to the Old Testament, instead of hope and joy.  
  
Justin Perdue: We'll have that conversation. Saints, if we're going to leave you with one final thought today, it's that read your Bible, study it, and sit under the preaching of God's Word knowing that the whole Bible is about your Savior who died for you, who atoned for your sin, in whom you died to the law and your penalty has been dealt with, and he is the one who provided you with righteousness and you're secure in him. Read your Bibles that way and they'll come alive, we pray, for you.  
  
We are now headed into our Semper Reformanda podcast. This is a second podcast that we record every week for people that have partnered with our ministry. If you're not familiar with Semper Reformanda and what it is, you can go over to our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com, and you will find all the information that you need to know about Semper Reformanda over there. We would encourage you, if you've not already done so, to go check that out and consider joining the Reformation as we seek to spread this message of the sufficiency of Christ and the rest that is ours in him as far and wide as possible. We would love for you to lock arms with us.  
  
For many of you that are listening to the regular podcast and will not be listening to the other one, we'll talk with you again next week. For those of you Semper Reformanda folks, we'll talk with you guys in just a moment.

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### Strong Disciples Only?

*Published: June 9, 2021 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/strong-disciples-only*
*Tags: Biblical Discipleship, Discipleship*

People often get the impression that being a disciple of Jesus is only for the strong. When it comes to discipleship, there is no room for fear or doubt. Is that the presentation of the gospel writers? Is that what we see in the New Testament epistles? Are followers of Jesus ever afraid? Do they doubt? Jon and Justin consider these things.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin discuss the apostle Paul and how he understood himself to be the foremost of sinners. And then the guys go on to talk about the corrosion in the local church that has contributed to saints living in fear and anxiety.  
  
Resources:  
Episode: [Discipleship is not about you ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/discipleship-is-not-about-you/)Episode: [Take up your cross?](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/take-up-your-cross/)  
1689 LBC, Chapters 13 and 18  
  
Giveaway: ["A Place for Weakness" by Michael Horton](https://amzn.to/3pCpKUo)  
  
FREE Ebook: wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/primer  
  
SUPPORT Theocast: [https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/ ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/)  
  
FACEBOOK: Theocast: [https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org ](https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org)  
  
TWITTER: Theocast: [https://twitter.com/theocast\_org ](https://twitter.com/theocast%5Forg)  
  
INSTAGRAM: Theocast: https://www.instagram.com/theocast\_org/  
  
https://youtu.be/ln4NtJCw\_Sg  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we are going to be talking about the nature of discipleship. We hear that once you become a disciple, you should have courage and boldness, be able to share your faith, and have a progression in holiness. Then there are those who don't experience such changes.  
  
Not only that, we read in the New Testament how there are secret disciples, disciples who waiver, go up and down, and they struggle with their own sin. There's a lot the Bible has to say about discipleship and we don't think it's a clean, straight line to the top. We hope you enjoy the conversation.  
  
Today we're going to talk about discipleship specifically, as the title says, _Strong Disciples Only_. That's how we hear the Bible described. For those of you who are new in Christ.—God has called you to Himself, regenerated, at that moment, you have been infused by the Spirit, and also because of the Spirit not living within you, you now have the spirit of boldness and strength. Evangelism is not what you're afraid of. You're willing and ready to die for Christ and to take on any kind of persecution. That's the way in which the New Testament describes true discipleship.  
  
Justin Purdue: Yeah, you're strong, you're not weak, you're never afraid, and you never doubt or wrestle or struggle.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We can take verses like when Jesus says in Luke 14:26: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." This is an absolute radical life transformation that you have to be willing to forsake everything in order to become a part of Jesus.  
  
I said this one Sunday, and I'll say it here: if that's your interpretation, I could also make the interpretation that Jesus is basically saying to hate everybody. "I don't like anybody anyways. That just works out for me. I like that kind of discipleship. Just me and Jesus. I hate everybody else." You can make that conclusion, but that's not what he says. Also in Luke 14:33, when it says, "So therefore, anyone of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple."  
  
We talked about this particular passage in the past, which is "take up your cross and follow me", which we'll link to in the notes as well. The problem we're about to face here is we're going to look at all of Scripture and we're going to look at everything the Bible has to say about discipleship, and we're going to then look at the examples given to us, and then compare it to what's being told of us today, which is all disciples everywhere, once they come to Christ, should be willing and ready and have no problems with fear. Unfortunately, that's just not what we're about to see.  
  
Justin Purdue: I think the presentation that so many people receive and the contexts where many people have either found themselves for a season, or maybe still find themselves today, you get the idea that if you are a disciple of Jesus Christ, that you're like a Green Beret. You're a special ops soldier and you need to come and be a part of this force of people. You need to be unafraid, you need to not waffle, doubt, struggle, wrestle, or anything like that—and that's because only the strong survive. That's the message that many people are given: you must persevere—which is a true thing to say.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say everything you said it's true as well. We do not have reasons to be afraid. If Christ is our Savior and God is our King, we don't have reasons to be afraid. But that doesn't mean people don't struggle with fear.  
  
Justin Purdue: In our experience, we struggle with fear and doubt, and that is because we are still fallen. We are saints and sinners at the same time. Because of that reality, our experience and how we feel—from hour-to-hour, day-to-day, week-to-week—will ebb and flow. This presentation that one must always be just ready to charge the wall, and that you are never fearful, that you don't doubt, that you don't struggle, that you're not weak, is not something that squares with the New Testament presentation of disciples. And that's the kind of stuff we're going to look at today.  
  
Because we are having this from a pastoral perspective, my hope is that it encourages the weary saints out there who know themselves to be afraid at points of various things and also know themselves to struggle with doubt and wrestlings of various kinds.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to begin by reading our confession. I think it will be helpful here in understanding that the position that we are presenting is a very old one. It's been concluded, argued over, and written down to be confirmed as we confess as believers. As it relates to the moment you come to Christ, sanctification does begin the process of us being transformed not only in our soul, but also in our mind, in how we engage God and how we think about Him. It isn't always an absolute moral transformation. My kids aren't morally struggling at the moment, but there is a mind transformation.  
  
I think it's very helpful how the writers of the confession write this. This is chapter 13 on Sanctification. Point two says, "This sanctification extends throughout the whole person, though it is never completed in this life. Some corruption remains in every part. From this arises continual and irreconcilable war, with the desires of the flesh against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh." And they reference some verses here that Justin and I mention quite often, which is Galatians 5:17, 1 Peter 2:11\. Then in point three, it says this: "In this war, the remaining corruption may greatly prevail for a time. Yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part overcomes." This is why we can take great comfort in the doctrine for perseverance or preservation of the saints. That is what they're teaching there. But they can acknowledge and do acknowledge that at times, the remaining sin that Christians still have, the saint-sinner reality—we live in a dualistic understanding where we are saved by Christ, but yet we struggle with the flesh; this is Galatians 5:17—that discipleship isn't a straight line. There isn't this immediate infusion of power to the point where all struggle is gone.  
  
Justin Purdue: I was going to add a little piece from the confession from a different chapter that I think speaks to some of these things too. Even in chapter 18 on Assurance of Grace and Salvation of the 1689 London Baptist Confession, in paragraph three, this language is helpful too that we understand that assurance is ours in Christ Jesus, but we don't always feel it. They say, "This infallible assurance is not such an essential part of faith that it is always fully experienced alongside faith, and true believers may wait a long time and struggle with many difficulties before obtaining it." And then they go on and say other things. I think we need to understand that our experience will not always be one of rock solid confidence in Christ and in our standing in him that would then produce this kind of fearlessness and would drive away all doubt.  
  
Many times the presentation—just to reiterate and be crystal clear—is that if you are legitimately in Christ and you are a true disciple, then there are certain things that should characterize you, and there are certain things that should not. And if those things are characterizing your life, ala this conversation—fearfulness, doubt—then you should be concerned. Our posture as pastors is seeing how that's piling it on the weary saint in a way that Christ doesn't, in a way that the gospel writers don't, and in a way that the apostles don't.  
  
Take us away, brother. Give us example number one.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The first example we're going to explain to you is that there aren't followers of Jesus and then disciples, like there are those who are in the Navy and then there are Navy seals. It's not two levels. Right. There are those who are in Christ and those who are not.  
  
Justin Purdue: To be in Christ is to be a disciple.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So to be in Christ is to be a disciple. To be a disciple, there are clear requirements, there are clear instructions, there are laws for us to obey—this is the new use of the law, or the third use of the law that we speak about. But we also know that there's grace, mercy, and repentance. It's a very complicated situation that the clearest focal point we always have is Jesus.  
  
Today, we're gonna talk about some of the complications that you may find yourself in, and that the text leads us to and gives us examples of. A great example for me is I am finishing up John. Every time I get to a new section of John, I am always dumbfounded by what I don't know, and just how amazing the gospel writers present the glory of Christ and the frailty of man.  
  
So Jesus is about to be buried, and John writes the most unique account of the burial of Jesus. He mentions things and says things that all the writers do not say. His account is quite unique. This helped me when trying to understand what it is that John wrote. John writes this probably about 30 years after the burial of Jesus. John has had time to contemplate, to think, to research, to know what's going on. He isn't writing wondering what's happening next. First, it's not fiction. He's not just coming up with any of this in his head. Two, he's not videotaping it and wondering what the next section will be like it's a documentary. He knows what's about to happen because he experienced it. So what you have here at the high point of history, which is Christ's death, is you have a changing of the garden in some ways, which is really interesting in how John describes it.  
  
So, Jesus is now dead. The disciples in chapter 20 are being described as hiding out in a room out of fear of the Jews. I love the detail John puts there: the door is locked. As if that's going to keep the Jews out.  
  
Justin Purdue: They are all afraid, they're disheartened, they're discouraged, they're despondent.  
  
Jon Moffitt: They are. John isn't writing as a form of criticism because he is describing his own self, as a doubter, as one who's a disciple of Jesus who is afraid.  
  
Let's just make a real quick observation. You have Peter saying, "Lord, I'll, I'll die for you. And there's nothing that's going to separate you from me." Of course, we know of Peter's failure. And then at the point of the cross, you have these disciples who are now running and hiding, and then you have these two disciples that John mentions. They're quite fascinating.  
  
He describes Joseph of Arimathea and he describes him in a really interesting way. Here in John 19:38, this is what he says, "After these things Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus..." Stop. Full stop. He clearly describes him as a follower of Christ. There's not a question, there's not an apostate, or a false professor. That's not what he says. He says, "Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews..." That's how John describes him. Mark describes him as one who took courage because he had to go stand before Pilate to ask for the body of Jesus. The last person that stood before Pilate, in reference to Jesus, died. I understand why this is a courageous act. But listen to who John couples with Joseph; he couples Nicodemus. Verse 39 says, "Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes."  
  
What is interesting about the two men? Jesus dies on the cross, all the disciples abandon him. The two disciples are secret disciples—one comes at night because he's afraid, the other one is being described as a secret disciple.  
  
Justin Purdue: And that coming at night, for those who don't know, is in John 3\. That account of Nicodemus coming to Jesus.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Nick at night in John 3\. If you go back to chapter 12, you can see that John is describing both of these disciples. Again, remember, John's writing 30 years after. This isn't unfolding as time. He says this: "Nevertheless, many even of the authorities," both Joseph and Nicodemus are part of the synagogue, so they both would be well known there, "many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.  
  
You need to take notice of a couple of facts here: one, John doesn't discredit their belief. Two, John does not say that there are false converts or false disciples. He actually gives both Nicodemus and Joseph the title of "disciple"—not one of the 12\. Of course, there were multiple disciples, but the point of it is that John very pointedly and purposely points out the fickleness of discipleship as it relates to fear, anxiety, pain, and following Christ. It's not simple. It's not a straight line like those who have Christ are radically going to be willing to die for him at any cost.  
  
Justin Purdue: You already mentioned Peter, but I'm going to pick up on Peter just for a minute. Many are familiar with the account of Peter denying Jesus in the gospels. What occurred there, for those who are not as familiar, is that Jesus had predicted his death and all these kinds of things many times. Peter, at points, even rebuked Jesus for talking about things like that. That's another conversation. But then certainly, he had pledged his undying allegiance to Christ and his fearless devotion to him, that even if everybody else falls away, he won't do it. "I'm not going to fall away. I will always be with you. I will always follow you." Peter is told by Christ that—this is on the last night of Jesus's life on earth—that he would in fact deny Jesus. Again, he rebuts that, saying, "No, I won't." And of course he does. He denies Christ out of fear when he goes to the courtyard. He follows Jesus as he's arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, he's taken before the council, he's in the courtyard at the high priest's house, and all those things. Three different times he's confronted: "You were with him. You were with Christ. You were with him, weren't you?" And he says, "No, I wasn't. I don't even know him." That's his initial denial.  
  
But then, something else that people might not be as familiar with occurs years later in Antioch. Paul writes about this episode in Galatians 2, and Paul confronted Peter in Antioch because Peter was operating out of fear of Jewish believers. So we read in Galatians 2:11 and following how in Antioch, Peter and Paul were there. And when Peter is interacting with Gentile Christians and there are no believers from Jerusalem, there are no Jewish Christians present, Peter just kicks it with Gentiles and is acting as they do, not worried about certain aspects of the law and all these kinds of things and is operating in freedom, and things are going well. But then there are some Jewish believers who show up—certain men who came from James, who we know was in Jerusalem. Peter completely changes his behavior with respect to how he's carrying himself and things that he's doing, not doing, eating, not eating, and things like this. Paul talks about having to confront him because he was operating out of fear of the Jews and fear of the circumcision party, and was leading people astray through his hypocrisy. So here you have an apostle in Peter who had already had this experience earlier, where he had denied the Lord Jesus Christ and then had been restored, and was now preaching, writing, and all these kinds of things in the early church. But then, he is afraid of men. He's afraid of other people and what they would think of him. And so he changes how he operates, how he talks, what he eats, and things of that nature so that he would be thought of well by other people. He was dominated, in that sense, by fear of man. That's another good example of how we can operate in fear—not just fear of authority or fear that we might lose something materially or that we might even lose our lives, but also we operate out of fear based on what other people will think of us. Such is our frailty.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In John 12, the rebuke that he gives to those leaders there where Peter himself falls under.  
  
Justin Purdue: One other example. This one is not so much fear as it is doubt, and I think those things are often related in our experience. Many are familiar with one of the 12 named Thomas. He is even referred to as Doubting Thomas, which is kind of an unfair title that we give to him. I just want to talk a little bit about his life. It's very interesting that this man who is known for doubting—in John chapter 11, in the whole episode of Lazarus and his resurrection, when Jesus makes the decision that they will go to Jerusalem effectively, just outside of it to Bethany, because of Lazarus in his death, Jesus tells the disciples in John 11:14 that Lazarus has died. "And for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him." And then Thomas says in verse 16 of John 11, he says to the other disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with him." He understands that their lives are going to be in jeopardy and that harm could come to them—and he's willing to go. I think this is instructive for us that this one man who was so courageous in one moment, even if he's saying it half out of sarcasm, later after Jesus dies is the one who's says "I will never believe that he rose from the dead unless I see him for myself and I can touch him." And of course, we know the episode that Jesus appears to him and we don't see harshness at all. But he knows this man's frame. He more or less looks at him and he says "Here, come and touch and see."  
  
Jon Moffitt: I can hear Thomas in the background saying, "Fool me once—I gave up everything to follow this guy. Fool me twice—that's not going to happen."  
  
Justin Purdue: In John 20:25, Thomas literally says, "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe." Then in the very next verse, Jesus appears to them and he says, and he says, "Peace be with you." Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it on my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." And then Thomas replies, "My Lord and my God!" His faith is stirred and strengthened because Jesus condescends to his weakness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He is gentle and lowly in spirit.  
  
Justin Purdue: Such is our frame and such is our condition. Some moments, we're like, "Yes, I believe! I would run through a wall for Christ. I believe and I just know that I know that I know that this was true." And then the very next day or the next week we're questioning everything, our faith feels very weak, and I think saints throughout history have had that very same experience.  
  
Jon Moffitt: How many times do you and I talk about this?  
  
Justin Purdue: On the regular.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is going to be kind of a weird section. I'll say this and I'll throw it back over to you. Sometimes, we listen to the episodes just to make sure everything is good to go and clean.  
  
Justin Purdue: Clean as in edit. It's not like we say bad things.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. Just to make sure all the edits are correct. Anyways, we sound bigger and more professional—this is my opinion of myself. I listened to us and I'm like, "Wow. We sound great. I know who I am. I know how small I am. I know how frail I am." I just don't ever want listeners to hear us, and I'll speak for you too because I know you agree, and just assume that because we do this podcast and we're pastors that we are these strong disciples. In many ways, I wanted to do this podcast because I'm over here going, "Well, I don't feel like a strong disciple. I feel very weak. I struggle with anxiety and fear often because of my frailty, and what's required of me as a human being is overwhelming at times."  
  
Justin Purdue: I can resonate with that. Even today, I've been feeling very intensely the battle against the flesh in various ways, to where Paul's words in Romans 7, "Wretched man that I am. Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Those words resonate. No truer words have ever been written from my perspective. Even as we sit down to record this podcast, I'm mindful of ways that I doubt and wrestle or ways that I'm struggling against sinful thoughts in my own mind. I do not feel as devoted to Jesus as I want to be. I do not feel and understand myself to be trusting him as much as I want to trust him. I need conversations like this with you, my brother in Christ, to stir me and to encourage me.  
  
I've said this before, and my mentor in the faith used to talk this way too: God, I think in one sense, has made me a pastor in his providence because He knew that I probably wasn't strong enough to not be one; meaning that my job requires me to study God's word in order to teach it and preach it. My job requires me to point others to Christ, and as I do that, my own faith is strengthened. I find myself so often preaching and saying things to other people, and I'm having that weird out-of-body experience that you almost have regularly as a preacher, where you're hearing yourself say stuff, and your own mind, you're able to kind of process that. Sometimes you're struck by it and you say, "I think I really do believe that." Sometimes you're struck because you're struggling to believe and you're asking God to give you faith. Such is my experience, and so I would never want the listener to hear me say something, and I know that you feel the same because you just said so, and think that we just never doubt, or we're never afraid—because we are. We, too, are frail; just like people listening to us talk are. We all need the grace of God, and we all need Him to give us faith, and to preserve us, or we have no hope that He's utterly faithful.  
  
If we were going to ask the question of what is required to be a disciple of Christ, the biblical answer to that is faith. Of course, faith is not of ourselves; it's a gift of God. But if you are trusting Christ to be your righteousness and the satisfaction for your sins, then you are His disciple. But here's the thing: even faith can waiver. That's the challenge. My faith in Christ is what's going to end up producing fruit of us being born again by the Spirit of God, we trust Christ, and then fruit is born from that in the form of repentance or in the form of good works, obedience, and the like. But even faith will vacillate and waiver at points. That's how fundamental this battle is. That's why we say that the fundamental battle of the Christian life is not even the fight against sin; the fundamental battle of the Christian life is the fight for faith to actually believe what the Lord has said; in particular, to believe what the Lord has said to us in His Son—that good word of our acceptance, our forgiveness, our absolution, and our righteousness that is through Christ, by faith, apart from works. We have to battle for faith so often because our life and our experiences preach a different message than the one that God speaks to us.  
  
That's the experience of disciples everywhere, and it's been the disciples' experience of all time. I'm thinking about even the words of the apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 12, where he talks about weakness, how he was weak, and how even the Lord told him that through Paul's weakness, the Lord's strength was magnified and made evident. Paul says, "I'm going to boast and rejoice in my weakness because it's there that the Lord shows Himself to be strong, and He shows His grace to be sufficient." I think we all need to be reminded of that in this conversation when we are made to feel sometimes like only the strong survive. Actually, we're all weak. The thing that we need to understand is that we are weak and that we need to cast ourselves completely upon the strength that is Christ alone for us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think a lot of the frailty, even fear and anxiety, which we're going to get into in a minute is caused by a confusion of what discipleship is in Christ. People are so exhausted by trying to climb into the boat of assurance and holding onto the rail that they may not be tossed out. They're so exhausted by that, and they have the fear that they're not able to enjoy the rest that truly is found in Christ. I think that's caused by a lot of confusion in not only modern day teaching, but historical teaching. I can even think of the book, which we'll probably reference more in Semper Reformanda, but the _Cost of Discipleship_ is really what we're talking about here. Prosperity gospel, believe it, or not creates a lot of fear and anxiety in people because of these certain reasons: they don't see success, they don't see God blessing them, they see failure, and they realize they haven't done enough as a disciple for God to approve their lives, and then therefore bless and take care of them. The cost of discipleship they see is no blessings from God equals either they are not a disciple, or they're not good disciples, and that they're not willing to do some of the things that are required. Some of this is having this outgoing personality in worship, being outgoing in public. You see this pressing in. I've been in contexts even in churches where if your hands aren't raised and you're not emotionally charged by what's going on, then how can you truly describe yourself as a dedicated disciple? Because if you truly were, you would be invested in what's going on in the worship service. I look at that and I go, "I'm pretty sure that's not what is required of a disciple to be invested emotionally into this event that you have created." a lot of people I have met who are solemn quiet personalities, they feel less than because they're not flamboyantly involved in a worship experience. I have other people who are very strong about their discipleship as it relates to Christ because they are so involved in this worship experience.  
  
Justin Purdue: I think another way that this kind of thing can manifest itself is maybe more in the lordship salvation camp, and just simply for our purposes today, where you see a confusion as to what faith even is. What ends up happening is not only are the law and the gospel collapsed and blended together, but then you have effectively, obedience, repentance, sincerity of devotion, and all these kinds of things woven into the definition of what faith is. If one is going to have saving faith, then one also has all of these other things that are apart from faith. What that ends up producing for us is a standard that frankly, I fear no one can really meet. It's also a standard that no one can define either. But it's where levels of obedience and levels of dedication are required of us.  
  
I would even say that progression in the battle against sin, in terms of getting increasing amounts of victory—like there needs to be this ongoing transformation and we do agree and uphold that our lives will be transformed—we are just trying to say, as we always do, that that transformation is going to ebb and flow some. It's going to go up and down, and it's not going to be clean and linear all the time. You may look at your life on any given day and have legitimate reasons to say, "I don't know that this battle, this fight against my flesh, is going as well today as it did yesterday or a year ago because I find myself really struggling right now." I think that is the common experience of many people. When they are in a context where they're told that you need to be getting better all the time, then there's a tremendous cause for concern, worry, doubt, and fear as to whether they're really in Christ.  
  
I know in my own life, Jon, if one of the reasons that I can be discouraged in the faith—and I'm saying this as a host of Theocast and as a pastor, and I know this isn't true—but it's like my mind, my conscience, and things that I heard for years still wage war against me. I will think man fighting this sin is really hard right now, or my affections are not where they were six months ago or whatever it may be. And then you start questioning things, you start condemning yourself. Even if you don't question whether or not you're in Christ, joy and peace and rest are taken away because you're constantly unsettled about your spiritual condition.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think the cost of discipleship, and even both of what we described, which is making Jesus Lord of your life, you have unrealistic expectations. One, we can't make Jesus Lord of our life because he is, and if the evidence of my Christian life is one, Jesus blessing me, or two, me sacrificing everything to make Jesus Lord of my life, then no one is truly a disciple because no one's been able to truly do that. We have to make the levels acceptable, and there is no acceptable level that the Bible puts it at other than faith. Even when it says faith without works is dead, we don't even know what level of works James is speaking of other than, "Look, that's what you need to be pursuing."  
  
Justin Purdue: I know that we've said this before, but for the newer listener: faith without works is dead from James 2—all we understand James to be saying is that faith will result in obedience and doing good works. We're not told how much. We're not told to measure it. That's all it is. It's not as though you need to weave works into the groundwork of your justification and your salvation. It is just simply that good works are a necessary consequence of faith—and God will produce them in you. That's all James is writing to.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're going to move into a second podcast that we do. I'm going to give a couple of lead-ins.  
  
First of all, we're going to speak a little bit more to the two sides that we showed, which is the prosperity gospel/ lordship salvation. I do want to talk about how the church has had an influence here. The church should be a place of rest and comfort. Shepherds should be feeding the sheep, not beating them; I think often, sheep come in and are beaten down so much that they become afraid of the shepherd, they become afraid of the church. We're going to talk about that for a little bit and how we, as Reformers can help transform our churches back to a biblical Reformed perspective of what it is that we are supposed to be doing, and to draw in, not lazy Christians, not people who are nominal, but I think people who are absolutely exhausted and beat down. How do we draw them back into our church that we might build them up into Christ, and into the maturity of Christ, that they may truly know what it means to have strength that comes from something other than their own dedication to God? Because Justin and I will both agree our strength is not found in our discipline and dedication because we're pretty bad at it.  
  
Justin Purdue: God help us if it needs to come from us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're going to talk about the Reformed view of sanctification. We do a second podcast which is kind of our family behind-the-scenes podcast where it's a little more unfiltered. If you'd like to support what we're doing here at Theocast and join that podcast, be able to join a local community in your area to discuss it, that's what Semper Reformanda is. We are still in the process of developing those teams in groups and we have online and local groups. If you want to be a part of any of that, you can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/sr, or just go to our website. You'll find it there.  
  
Justin Purdue: If you are one of those people who, not only if you're weary, but if you do know that you're weak, you struggle, you wrestle, you doubt, and you're aggrieved at the fact that you don't obey Christ more than you do, then come join the rest of us who are just like you who are looking to Christ for everything because we understand him to be our only hope. Come and be a part of this and be encouraged by other brothers and sisters who get this too.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We have a Facebook group. Real conversations happen there as well.  
  
All right. We'll see you guys next week.

---

### What is Repentance?

*Published: June 2, 2021 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-is-repentance*
*Tags: Biblical Repentance, Repent and Believe, Repentance*

If you look around in the church or on Christian social media, there seems to be a lot of confusion about repentance. What exactly is it, biblically? In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about repentance from various places in Scripture. And they consider repentance at conversion and the ongoing repentance that characterizes the Christian life.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin discuss how none of us can adequately repent, how repentance is not penance, as well the fact that the Christian life is one of ongoing repentance.  
  
**Resources:**  
["The Whole Christ" by Sinclair Ferguson](https://amzn.to/3g2fron)  
["Christ the Lord" by Michael Horton](https://amzn.to/3fEU3Xd)  
1689 LBC, Chapters 14 and 15  
  
FREE Ebook: wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/primer  
  
SUPPORT Theocast: [https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/ ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/)  
  
FACEBOOK: Theocast: [https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org ](https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org)  
  
TWITTER: Theocast: [https://twitter.com/theocast\_org ](https://twitter.com/theocast%5Forg)  
  
INSTAGRAM: Theocast: https://www.instagram.com/theocast\_org/  
  
https://youtu.be/YywV2ZQ\_sEs  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we are talking about repentance. If you look around in the church and certainly on Christian social media, there seems to be a lot of confusion about repentance and what it is. So we're going to talk about repentance from the Old Testament and repentance from the New Testament. We're going to talk about repentance on the front end in terms of conversion and how one is united to Christ. And we're also going to talk about repentance in an ongoing way in the Christian life and hope to make some sense of this topic. We hope that you're encouraged by the conversation. We hope as always that you find assurance and rest in the Lord Jesus Christ as you listen. Stay tuned.  
  
We're going to have a conversation about an important subject. People have already seen the title of the episode so I don't need to bury the lead. The title of the episode is _What is Repentance?_ That's a topic that gets Christians worked up. If you look on Christian Twitter, or Christian social media in general, and find any kind of dialogue about the topic of repentance, you will notice that people are passionate about this conversation with good reason—because it is an important doctrine, it's an important subject when it comes to our union with the Lord Jesus Christ, our conversion, etc. But then also, it matters in the Christian life as well. So today we want to have a very simple, somewhat introductory conversation on the topic of repentance because our plan over the summer, over the course of several months, is to have other conversations related to this one. We're going to deal with some of the subject matter that is contained in several books.  
  
I'll go ahead and maybe give us a sneak peek on this. In no particular order, we're going to be doing episodes that would be oriented around John MacArthur's book, _The Gospel According to Jesus_, we're going to do an episode that centers around the book edited by Michael Horton called _Christ the Lord_, and then we also will do an episode that is centered around the subject matter of _The Whole Christ_ by Sinclair Ferguson. You can look for those episodes to be coming out over the course of the summer. Those are not going to be formal book reviews; they're just going to be conversations that will deal with some of the subject matter of those books, but they're going to be an accessible, Theocast-ish kind of conversations that we hope you'll find encouraging. We're going to be dealing with matters like Lordship salvation and all those kinds of things—legalism, antinomianism, and the nature of the gospel, the sufficiency of Christ, the Marrow Controversy, and all of that over the summer.  
  
But what we want to do today is have an initial conversation about repentance and what it is. What we're going to aim to do is talk about it some on the front end, in terms of conversion, and then we're going to talk about what repentance is in the Christian life in an ongoing way. Hopefully, we can point out some of the pitfalls and some of the mistakes, frankly, that people make where categories are collapsed, and things get a little bit confusing and unhelpful to the believer.  
  
Jon, if I were to just ask you straight away what repentance is, how would you answer that question?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Historically, how this has been answered is a change of mind. This is how it's been interpreted through commentators and through the Reformers. A good example of what it is from the Old Testament, in the Decalogue, where it says, "You shall have no other gods before me." This is God telling them to change their mind from a polytheistic understanding to a monotheistic. It is no longer okay to serve multiple gods; you can only serve one God. Not only should they change their way of thinking about something being good or bad, but then it's going to affect their actions, which is that they should only serve one God. That would be a simple example of what repentance would look like in the Old Testament and the New Testament.  
  
Justin Perdue: And that change of mind is what produces the change in action.  
  
Just really briefly on this before we get any further down the road: I agree completely with you. The word, for example, in the New Testament for repentance is "metanoia", which is a change of mind, as you said, or a change of understanding. What we're discussing, and you've already hit it, is one of these pillars. We're talking about a change of mind or a change of understanding with respect to a few really important things: one being God, who He is, and the fact that He's the Creator, He's the only God, and thereby we have an obligation to Him. The second thing is it's a change of mind or understanding about ourselves—who we are, and whether we're good or not, all that kind of thing. Lastly, it's a change of mind about how we might be reconciled to God. It's really specifically a change of mind about Christ, who he is, what he did, why we need him, how it is that we're united with him and why we need to be united to him. So it's a change of understanding in all of these ways that then will produce a change in behavior or a change of course of life. We ought not collapse those things, which I think is where we're going to get to in a minute.  
  
Jon, I want to kick it back over to you because I think you were headed somewhere and I jumped in.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There's definitely a collapsing of the two understandings of repentance. What I mean by two understandings is that there's a call to the sinner who is not under the grace of God, and who has not received a generation—there's a call to repentance to that individual. And then there is a call to those who are under grace and who are children of God. Then there's another interesting whole dynamic of being the Old Testament prophets and their preaching of repentance to a nation. So you have three different categories of repentance, and often we collapse the three, and many times we collapse the nation repentance with the believer and confuse those two, or even the unbeliever and the nation, assuming that if one repents then God will give them mercy. It's like mercy only comes to the repentant—and that is true to the nation.  
  
Even in Acts, when Peter is speaking about the prophets of old, he's rebuking them. We somehow use it as a means to illustrate that we need to be preaching this type of repentance, but he was saying the prophets of old were telling them that the Messiah was coming and calling them to repent of their ways and obey the law, which will usher in the Messiah—and of course, they missed it completely, not according to God's sovereignty, but this is exactly how it unfolded, which we can get into another time. But then we hear verses where it says, "Repent and your sins will be blotted out." We assume that is the gospel, one, because often you will hear John the Baptist, or even Jesus, mention these types of phrases. And because "it's in the gospels", we assume that that is tied to the gospel.  
  
Justin, let's talk about this for a moment. Just because it's in the gospel, and John the Baptist, or even Jesus, calls people to repentance, we have to be careful to not assume that one cannot receive grace unless they've repented. Because in the Old Testament, to the nation of Israel, they would receive forgiveness, mercy, and grace if they repented. But is that true of the unbeliever now according to the New Testament?  
  
Justin Perdue: The way I'm going to lead off my comments on this is with something that I think I've said before behind the mic here: we would all be helped if the titles of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not "The Gospel According to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John", because in the original, the titles are just "according to". I think the insertion of "The Gospel According to" makes us think that everything contained within them is part and parcel of the good news, whereas we have pointed out over time how much of what's contained in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are actually not gospel—it's law. Those statements of law come from any number of people, including John the Baptist and Jesus himself.  
  
With respect to John the Baptist, I think we need to understand who he is. He is effectively the last of the old covenant prophets, and so he should be understood much more akin to Isaiah, Elijah, Jeremiah, etc., than he should be understood as a part of the gospel—like the coming of the Messiah himself. John is the forerunner. He is a transitionary figure from the old covenant into the new. But ultimately the new covenant is ushered in by the Messiah himself, and we understand that even Jesus, as he is doing ministry on earth and as he is teaching, so often speaks words of law to people in order to unsettle them in their self-righteousness, to crush them with the law, and to show them that what they desperately need is the Messiah who comes to fulfill the law for them, to atone for their sins, and to reconcile them to God.  
  
Many times when Jesus speaks, that's his objective. So we need to be careful in how we read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And then we also need to be careful on how we read the Book of Acts, which again, I don't want to get us too far down the road here, but the Book of Acts contains a bunch of different things too. Christ has already ascended and the preaching of the gospel is happening, the gospel is going forth and all of those things—that's not debatable at all. But I think what we need to do is be responsible with how we even look at the apostles' language in the Book of Acts and not be biblicists in how we read certain passages.  
  
As a parting shot on this, when you hear language of repentance even from John the Baptist, for example—yes, I know it's in John's gospel; I understand these things—but when he says he's preaching a baptism of repentance, we ought not understand that he is preaching the gospel. He is preaching something else than the good news itself.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Going back to a comment that might be new for a lot of people—when you said Biblicism, this is a very important concept for you to understand as it relates to the confusion on repentance. I think a lot of people are confused on what repentance is because they are biblicists—and it's not a good word, it's a bad word, because what it means is you are not allowing the context of the verse, the surrounding passages, and the Bible at large to influence what you are. What biblicists will do is they will look at a verse or a couple of verses and say, "Well, this is exactly what it says: Matthew 4:17, 'From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."' See? It says in the text that this is what you should be doing." But you're not looking at who Jesus is talking to, what the immediate reason is for Matthew to write that, and at large, what does the entire Bible have to say about repentance and salvation? Is Jesus talking to unbelievers or believers? Those are really important questions. Biblicism doesn't take into account all of Scripture and all of theology.  
  
I would even say that often, Biblicism doesn't allow you to systematize Scripture. You have to systematize Scripture. A good example of this is you will not be Trinitarian if you don't allow scripture to be systematized, because that's how we come up with an understanding that our God is triune.  
  
Justin Perdue: Really quick on Biblicism. I think the real pitfalls of it and where it falls short is that it does not take into consideration the canonical context of Scripture; by that, I mean the whole Canon—all 66 books. You don't take the Bible as a cohesive whole and try to hold that together appropriately if you're a biblicist. You tend to pit texts against each other as though they contradict themselves, or there's just some mystery here that you've introduced into the text that actually isn't there, if you understand the Scriptures with an appropriate framework, as you just said.  
  
The second pitfall of Biblicism is that it is inherently opposed to theological frameworks and theological systems that would even arise out of the text, like covenant theology or the distinction between the law and the gospel. What you end up doing is saying things that sound schizophrenic. "Over here it says this, and over here it says this. How do we reconcile the two? We're not sure, but they're both kind of true." It becomes very confusing for people. What ends up happening whenever you collapse categories is that clarity is lost, the saints are harmed because peace and assurance before the Lord are taken away, and the gospel becomes less clear. None of that's ever good.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You'll see pet passages that become the ones that we run to. It's like when you first meet a Calvinist, all they can emphasize are the passages on sovereignty.  
  
I put a tweet out there recently that I was trying to help people understand that repentance is a fruit of regeneration; it's not the cause of regeneration.  
  
Justin Perdue: What is regeneration?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Regeneration—a good example of this is Ephesians, where it talks about us being taken from death to life. It means to regenerate or bring back. It means to give life. We believe that, according to Ephesians, we were dead in our trespasses and sins, and Christ made us alive. So he took us from death to life. That's what regeneration means.  
  
To say that repentance is required of sinners in order to receive regeneration, or another way of saying this is you must first repent before you can receive mercy for sins, or before you can be brought into the family of God—often, you can hear this: repent and believe. But we have to be very careful that we understand the context. It says in John 3:16 that whoever believes in the Lord shall be saved. I believe that for God so loved the world that He gave His Son. I believe all of that, but that's not disconnected from the fact that you are dead. You are in Adam, and because you were in Adam, you were born a sinner.  
  
So we're going to talk about before one is alive in Christ. I absolutely believe in the command that is given to us by Christ that one must repent. I believe that. This is a legitimate command.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even the imperative to believe.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. It is an imperative to believe. You have to believe in order to receive Christ. A dead person, spiritually speaking, cannot repent. Not only that, let's say they can change the direction—they were trapped in sin and now they're no longer trapped in sin. I don't believe Jesus means in general, and I don't believe God means in general. If you're going to turn away from your sin and receive forgiveness of sins, you have to be able to turn away from all of your sin if this is what he's talking about. I don't think it's possible to turn away from not loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, because we don't have the capacity to do that. The thing about this is that if you're saying one must repent in order to be saved, then no one will ever be saved.  
  
Justin Perdue: Let me talk a little bit about the order of salvation as it's been understood, or in theological vernacular, the _ordo salutis_. All we mean here is trying to break apart how it is that someone comes to faith and is saved. We understand, along with the Reformed through history, that regeneration, or God's sovereign work of giving life to a dead sinner, precedes faith and repentance, and that faith and repentance are both fruits of regeneration—and obviously our conversation today is about repentance. And so life must be given by God in order for a sinner to have this change of mind. It is granted by the Lord, and we are united to Christ by faith given to us by God. Our minds are quite literally changed by God as we hear the message of the law and the gospel, and thereby, we are united to Christ and are saved.  
  
We've got to get this really clear. Because if we say what you just said, that you must repent first in order to receive grace, or you must repent first in order to receive mercy from God, then no one will ever receive mercy or grace. You are making repentance the efficient cause of receiving grace, life, mercy, etc. from the Lord. You really have turned it into a work that a human being must do—and I would argue that you do the same thing with faith if you think in these terms. You're turning faith into something that the person must do that is then the efficient, the effective cause of salvation. Whereas we would understand Jesus is the one who saves, and God, in His sovereign grace and mercy, gives life to dead sinners.  
  
This is related to a number of things in my own mind, but I know we're going to get to the whole Christ later this summer. But just a brief little insertion here. What sparked the Marrow Controversy in the church of Scotland was effectively this question: must a person forsake sin in order to come to Christ? Which is essentially what we're talking about today. Must a person forsake sin and turn from sin in order to come to the Lord Jesus Christ? And the answer to that question that split the church of Scotland apart, on the part of some brothers in Christ, was no. If we need to do anything in order to come to Christ, then no one will come to Christ. Because we can't.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. Because we believe in a very important doctrine that all in Adam died.  
  
Forget Calvinism. True Calvinists cannot believe this. If you're a Calvinist, you cannot believe you have the capacity to repent on your own without Christ or the Holy Spirit's power. You cannot do it because in Adam all die. So this is why we always will say repentance is a fruit of our salvation, and faith and repentance happen simultaneously.  
  
We're going to get into this in a moment: what does repentance look like after salvation? We're going to talk about that in a moment. But I want to belabor this point that if you go to someone and you require them to repent of sin in order to come to Christ, I'm sorry but you are preaching to dead men's bones and telling dead men's bones to do things that cannot be done. If you call yourself a Calvinist, you're confused. Because depravity demands us to preach the gospel and the gospel would leave one to faith and repentance.  
  
Justin Perdue: Really quickly, John, on this, I just wanna jump in. From the 1689 London Baptist Confession. This is chapter 14 on Saving Faith. But I think this needs to be stated, because what you're saying right now is entirely right that on the front end of this thing, when we're talking about somebody being converted and united to the Lord Jesus Christ initially, it really is not a wise thing, in an ultimate sense, to try to pull faith and repentance apart because it becomes very clear that they do go together in this regard.  
  
For example, chapter 14, paragraph two, at the very end of the 1689 confession, it says this: "the principal acts of saving faith focus directly on Christ—accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace. I think when you state things that way, it's very clear that a person only does such a thing like resting, receiving, trusting, and hoping in the Lord Jesus Christ because that individual has been given life from God and has also come to see that God is God, He is holy and we are not, I'm undone and I need a Redeemer and Christ is him. I am casting myself completely upon Jesus and depending on him, not me—on him and nothing else. That is evidence that this change of mind has been wrought in a person, and it's evidence that the Lord has given someone life that they would ever say, "I need Christ and I'm trusting him." When we talk this way, I think it's helpful.  
  
One more comment, if I may, in terms of how a lot of times people say things about repentance and faith that are super confusing. They go to the Book of Acts and they will cite Acts 2 with Peter. What must we do to be saved? Peter says, "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins." But then later, for example in Acts 13, Paul will say that, for example, "Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man, forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you," this man being Jesus, "and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses."  
  
Or the Philippian jailer in chapter 16\. When he's undone, people remember the story of how there are disciples of Christ in jail, and then miraculously, chains fall off, the gate swings open, and the Philippian jailer is going to kill himself because he's going to be ruined because he's allowed all the prisoners to escape. The disciples look at him and say, "Don't kill yourself." And he basically ends up asking, "What do I need to do to be saved?" And they say, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved." I think what we need to see is that in the presentation, even in the Book of Acts, you see that at certain times repentance is stated. Other times, faith is stated. Instead of pitting those against each other and making it sound like schizophrenia, what we're getting today is a better solution to say that all of this is a fruit of regeneration, of the new birth. What's happening here is the change of mind as wrought in a person who believes in Christ. This happens in our experience practically simultaneously on the front end.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Speaking of the front end, when you see Jesus using phrases like, "I've come to seek and to save the lost," "I have come to the sick, the blind, the needy," normally, he is saying this to the Pharisees. He's saying this to the self-righteous because they're standing before him and they don't believe he's the Messiah. They don't believe they need to trust in him. They can't see that they're sick. They can't see that they're sinners. So Jesus is saying that the thing you need to repent of, or the thing you need to see against the law is that you are sinful, you are sick, you were depraved, but they can't do it. This is why even in John 6, it says that the Father has to open their eyes in order for them to see it. And then he says things like, "My sheep will hear my voice and they will come to me. They will know me, they will hear me."  
  
When you hear Jesus speaking of repentance before he goes to the cross, he's talking about the self-righteous. He even uses the illustration of the two men in the temple. Which one walked away justified? The one who was beating his chest.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. Who understands he needs mercy.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Who was saying, "Be merciful to me." And then who's the self-righteous man? "Lord, I am so thankful I'm not like this man. Jesus gives the exact illustration of what these people need to repent of.  
  
My conviction is that Jesus came preaching repentance of self-righteousness. Stop trying to save yourself by yourself. That's what he came preaching. I would say that when we're preaching repentance, we would do well to do the same to tell people. As you preach the law, the law crushes people. You have them look at the law and say, "See? You can't save yourself. So repent of that and turn to Christ." We know that if they do this, you can see them turn away from self-salvation and they turn to Christ, immediately we can say that is a fruit of the Spirit. To be able to do that, you have to have the Spirit of regeneration in you.  
  
Justin Perdue: To turn from self-salvation to God's salvation is, without doubt, a change of mind that is brought by the Holy Spirit. I'm going to read from the 1689 again briefly, just to keep referring back to Reformed confession. Chapter 15 on Repentance to Life and Salvation, paragraph one, reads this way: "Some of the elect are converted after their early years having lived in the natural state," that is, without the Spirit, "for a time and served various evil desires and pleasures." Then this: "God gives these repentance to life as part of their effectual calling." And so it's very clear that—and Acts 11 is like this, the words of Titus 3 are like this—that God grants repentance to people as a part of His effectual calling on their lives. Meaning God has said to a dead person, "Live." Like when Jesus says to Lazarus, "Come out of the tomb," the one who gave the command gives life so that the command can be heeded. It's the same with us. God effectively looks at us and says, "Live." And what happens? Again, simultaneously in our experiences, the law and the gospel is preached and Christ is heralded. Scales are knocked off our eyes and we immediately see that we are ruined before a holy God and that Christ is our Savior, that he has atoned for my sin, he has accomplished my righteousness, he has secured my sanctification, he has secured my resurrection. I need him and I'm trusting him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This does not contradict passages like Acts 17:30 where he says in the past, God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent. We would say amen. Repent under Christ. Fall upon Christ. Amen to that.  
  
Justin, for just a couple of minutes here, let's talk about in the Christian life. Then we're gonna have to really take this into the Semper Reformanda. But we'll tee it up for a little bit. Often when people hear me say this, what they're saying then is, "Jon, if you preach that, then people will live however they want." No. You have to understand the difference between preaching the gospel to the unbeliever and preaching the gospel to the believer. It's the same gospel, but the application does have its differences. You're calling someone unto faith and then you're calling someone to live out their faith. As James says, faith without works is a dead faith. Justin and I believe that. Repentance is a fruit; it's a real fruit and it should be happening. I think it is a wonderful fruit that God repents us. We often look at repentance as something that we can do on our own, and it's not. It's a Spirit-wrought work. It's something that happens to us. We will repent. But I will tell you that there's nowhere in Scripture that indicates that you have the capacity to repent of all your sins all of the time. That would mean you don't walk by faith, you walk by repentance. That's not the command that we've been given.  
  
I just want to read you a couple of passages that I think are helpful. We need to be living in a life of repentance. What that means is we're constantly changing our mind from trusting in the lie of Satan to believing in the sufficiency of something outside of Jesus Christ. All sin can be summarized basically of trusting in something else that is "more sufficient" than Jesus. And then we end up with fear, anxiety, lust, anger, all of that comes out of us. Where we must find our rest is we do not have the capacity to repent of all sin. Justin and I would both agree that we need to repent of known sin, and if we're actively in sin, we need to change our mind about that and walk away from it and change the direction.  
  
But where we also rest is in the reality of, for instance, Hebrews 4:16, "Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace." Why should we have confidence? Well, the whole book of Hebrews is about the sufficiency of Jesus being our mediator. It says, "that we might receive mercy and find grace in a time of need." When do you need grace and mercy for sinners when you're sinning?  
  
I must continue here in Hebrews. It says in chapter 10, "Therefore, brothers, since we have the confidence to enter it in the holy places by the blood of Jesus." We don't have confidence to walk into the presence of God because we've done righteous things; it's because we don't do righteous things. "By the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened up for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with a heart sprinkled clean from the evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful." He's faithful, not us. That's where our confidence lies.  
  
So yes, we repent. But Justin, you and I both know we are not good with God because of our repentance; we feel we are good with God because of Christ's blood being sprinkled upon us, and God is faithful. That's where we rest.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen. Hebrews 12:24, the blood of Christ speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. That word effectively is, "It is finished." That's where our confidence is found.  
  
There are so many other passages that are popcorning around in my brain right now that I think are helpful in this conversation. 1 John 1:8 through 2:2 is really good because we're told that if we say that we have no sin, then we make God out to be a liar and the truth isn't in us. But what we're encouraged to do is to confess our sins because God is faithful and just, in the Lord Jesus Christ, to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And John then says, "Little children, beloved, I'm writing this so that you might not sin. But if anybody does, know that we have an advocate with the Father: Jesus Christ, the righteous. He's the propitiation and the satisfaction for our sins." And so we're encouraged to confess sin, to acknowledge sin, and to trust the Lord in Christ that we are absolved and that we're forgiven and that we're righteous. We're not saved by our confession, we're not saved by our repentance, but God will continually grant these things to His saints. And we live a life, as has been said so many times, of continual repentance because we understand that when it comes to us, we are always failing. And then we are casting ourselves anew upon the One who has paid for every failure.  
  
As I say things like this, I'm saying this to myself as much as I am to the listener because I need to be reminded of these things. I tend to be very bothered and grieved by my sin. I'm not saying that I'm grieved as much as I should be because that's a whole hyper-introspective Pandora's box of things. But when we encounter sin in our lives, our tendency is to be bothered by that, to be concerned by it, we question whether we're legitimate, we doubt whether we're God's, and all these things. I think my word there is that instead of having that mindset, we should be reminded that the fact that we're even grieved by our sin in the first place is evidence that we now belong to Christ. What we are encouraged to do is to continue to take our sin to the Lord, to confess it to him, to confess it to our brothers and sisters, and then to be absolved in the Lord Jesus Christ. There are various other texts in the Scriptures for sure where you see the apostles exhorting churches to repentance. Many times that's because they're turning to a different way of salvation. I'm thinking of Galatians, I'm thinking of Hebrews—not neglecting such a great salvation means don't go back to the law.  
  
Then you have passages like the letter to the Corinthians where Paul will, in various places, do a law-gospel thing. He's rebuking them for how they understand Christian freedom effectively. You think that sexual promiscuity and gross sexual immorality are expressions of Christian freedom. Don't you know that people who do these things won't inherit the Kingdom of God. Why would you engage in things that the judgment of God is coming for? You used to be this, now you've been cleansed. This isn't who you are now. Those are the words of Paul in Ephesians, it's the word of Paul in Corinthians. Remember who you are. You're not this anymore.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's 2 Peter 1.  
  
Justin Perdue: Totally. It's a really consistent message: don't go toward another gospel, don't revert back to self-salvation, don't go back to the law, and then remember who you are now in the Lord Jesus Christ and live that way. And we always are having to be reminded of these things because we go astray.  
  
Jon Moffitt: For those of you that are new, we do a podcast, and I'll let Justin explain that. But I think in Semper Reformanda, what I would like to now take us into is the confusion that repentance is a fruit. But just like other fruits like joy, meekness patients, longsuffering, they aren't full and complete. Repentance isn't full and complete. In other words—I'll say this now and explain it later—just because you're now a believer doesn't mean all sin will always be repented of fully and completely forever. Otherwise, that means we could be perfect. I'll leave that here and we'll explain later.  
  
Justin Perdue: Oh, dear listeners. Notice what Jon Moffitt just did and how he set it up and he just took it right away. He kind of dangled in front of you and he's like, "Oh, but not for now. We're going to talk about it later."  
  
If you want to be a part of the conversation that Jon has just teed up for us, we're going to have that in the other podcast that we offer weekly called Semper Reformanda. That podcast is for people who have partnered with our ministry and have locked arms with us to see this message of the sufficiency of Christ, and the rest that is ours in him, spread far and wide as possible. So if you want more information about Semper Reformanda, how you can become a part of this great thing that the Lord is doing, and how you can get more involved with Theocast and meet other people that think like you and are wrestling through the same things you are, then go over to our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. You can learn everything about Semper Reformanda over there.  
  
For many of you, we'll talk with you again next week on the regular edition of the podcast. And for others of you, we're going to talk with you in just a few minutes. I trust that you go over to your Semper Reformanda feed and listen in on the conversation there. Talk soon.

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### Prodigal, God Still Has You

*Published: May 26, 2021 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/prodigal-god-still-has-you*
*Tags: Forgiveness, Prodigal Son*

Can Christians sin to the point that there is no mercy left? Is it normal for Christians to struggle with sin--even heinous or intentional sins? When Christians sin badly and for a long time, do we fall from God's favor? Is there any comfort for the struggler? Jon and Justin consider all of this and more in today's episode.  
  
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin discuss the views of different traditions when it comes to apostasy and struggles with sin.  
  
Scripture references:  
2 Corinthians 11:3  
Romans 7:15ff  
Galatians 5:17  
Ephesians 4:27, 6:12ff  
James 1:13-15, 4:7  
1 Peter 5:8  
1 John 1:8-2:2, 3:8  
  
Resources:  
[Our primer on assurance](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/product/safe-in-christ-a-primer-on-assurance/)  
[Our episode on "How Much Can a Christian Sin?"](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-much-can-a-christian-sin/)  
  
Giveaway: ["Safe in Christ: A Primer on Assurance" by Theocast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/product/safe-in-christ-a-primer-on-assurance/)  
  
https://youtu.be/S1XTb5LR1QI  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, Justin and I talk about prodigals—those who have walked away from God. The question is, can they walk away so far that there is no grace or mercy remaining? And are prodigals normal? We look at passages in the Bible that warn us about the devil, how the devil tries to trip us up, and how we can often struggle against our own flesh and at times, lose that battle. What does it look like for a prodigal to come back into the good graces of God? It's a lively discussion. We hope you enjoy.  
  
Today's conversation is really geared towards the biblical understanding of struggling with sin. We did a podcast a while back that said how much can a Christian sin? And for how long? And I would encourage you, if you have not heard that episode, you can go listen to that. We'll put it in the show notes. This is kind of 2.0\. We wanted to add to those thoughts and really provide some additional biblical arguments for those who, I think, have been influenced by bad theology for many years.  
  
And then in our Semper Reformanda, we're going to get specifically down into some actual documents. Semper Reformanda is the unfiltered/educational section of our ministry.  
  
Justin, let's talk for a moment about the Bible as it relates to this kind of situation: there is no question the person has professed Christ; they're trusting in him, they understand that, received the sign of baptism, they are following in the biblical form of "faith alone"—and then they are ensnared into sin. First, is this a normal thing in Scripture or is this abnormal? Do we not have a lot of passages on this? How does the Bible guide us as it relates to—let's just use a really common illustration: the prodigal. Is the prodigal a common situation amongst Christians throughout history?  
  
Justin Perdue: Short answer: yes. It is a normal situation. With respect to the prodigal, one thought that popped into my mind is I think a lot of times people think that that parable only is illustrative of somebody coming to faith initially.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The prodigal was not a son until he repented.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. He basically was not a child of God, and then he repented and became one. That's actually not the way the parable is told. The parable is told that he is a child of God, he is a son, and he loses his senses and runs off into a foreign land, lives recklessly, and squanders everything. That, I do think, is a tremendous depiction of how we tend to struggle—even mightily—for seasons of our Christian lives. Then "comes to his senses" and says, "I'm going to go back to my father." This is not a podcast on the prodigal son, but it's just so encouraging the way that that parable unfolds, where the son has his pitch all planned that he's going to come back to his father. "Father, I've sinned against heaven and before you. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Just treat me as one of your hired servants. Let me work for you." And of course, fast forwarding to that poignant moment when he's approaching the household and the father sees him and runs out to him, the son begins to give his pitch. "I've sinned against heaven and before you. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son." And before he can even get to the piece about letting him work for his father as a slave, the father says, "Bring the best robe in the house and put it on my son. Give him a ring and put shoes on his feet. Kill the fattened calf and let's have a party because my son is found and he was lost. My son is alive again and he was dead." It's a beautiful picture. I think that this happens for people as they have trusted Christ, they're living life in the church, and they fall into perhaps heinous sin, intentional sin for a season of time—they're mired and they're trapped in it, and are restored. God repents us. Amen. Praise be to His name.  
  
I'm not going to bury the lead here, Jon. It is our conviction based on Scripture and the confessions that in that sort of season where we are mired in sin and trapped in it, and then of course, the restoration is coming in an obvious way as God repents us by His grace, but in that whole time, there is not a moment when we are not in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is not a moment where the Holy Spirit has left us. There is not a moment where we are lost and would go to perdition if we were to die in that moment. We would understand that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable, and that as we have been united to the Lord Jesus Christ by faith, as is signified by our baptism and even our ongoing union with him in the table. The Lord keeps us by faith, by His grace unto salvation.  
  
The underlying message that we want to communicate today is that your sin, and you being mired in it as a Christian, is a normal experience. We're not encouraging people to go sin. Of course, when we find ourselves in sin, repentance is what we encourage people toward and plead with people to. But we are wanting to continue to herald the fact that Christ has saved us even as we struggle and is inviting people back to their loving Father and to their Savior.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The prodigal in Jesus' illustration is a horrible repenter. He just is. We love to think about it in such a way that he repented but, no, he didn't. He repented with penance. He realized what he had done was wrong, but he was coming back to the father with penance. I've said this before, but my illustration is the son starts to say to the father, "I know I've sinned against you and against heaven..." And then the father goes, "Okay, great, great, great. Hold on a second. Hey, can someone bring the robe? What were you saying? Hold on. Before you finish that, can someone bring the ring? Oh, and by the way, let's get the calf going." The reason I mention this is that the father knew what that son was about to say. The point of it is, "You are my son. Therefore, there are no requirements to remain my son." There is a difference. Jesus uses this illustration.  
  
To the self-righteous who won't cling to Christ, he just gives him more law. But to the sinner, like the woman at his feet, it says your sins are forgiven. Why? Because she was trusting in Christ with her sins, which were many. And I want to say that to the believer who has found their rest in Christ, they say, "Okay, I know I can't earn my righteousness. I know it's by Christ's death on the cross and his righteous imputed or given to me." To that person, Christ says, "You are in my hand and I am in the Father's hand; no one can take you out." There's nothing that can separate us from God, which is in Christ Jesus. There's no condemnation.  
  
Justin Perdue: Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, not even our sin.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Of any kind.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. We will not out-sin the grace of Christ. For those of us who have been united to him by faith, we will not out-sin the grace of Christ, and God will keep us into the end—this is what we believe. The confessions bear that out and the Scriptures do as well.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And as confessional Calvinists, we believe that the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit—once it brings to life, it cannot be snuffed out. That's what we're saying.  
  
Justin Perdue: Jesus doesn't break bruised reeds and he doesn't put out smoldering wicks. That faith—and it might be a faint flicker—Jesus will fan that flame and he will sustain it. He's not going to snuff it out.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Safe in Christ literally means you are protected from condemnation because you are robed in Christ. Nothing can touch you. Now that is the reality of your final status. We always say you are saved, you are being saved, you will be saved. The illustration of our standing before Christ is declared as finished, we are being transformed into his image, we are being saved, and one day we will finally be saved, which is our glorification. Now, in that process of us remaining here on earth, there are warning passages in the New Testament. It is something we need to talk about.  
  
Justin Perdue: It is very clear in the New Testament that Christians can sin, Christians can be mired and trapped in sin, and that to sin and to be trapped in sin is terrible for us on every level. The revealed will of God is that we would not sin, and that we would battle against it and flee from it, etc. Yet the Scriptures bear witness to the fact that we will do it, and there are words to us about such things. This might not be the one that you were planning to lead with, and that's fine. I'm just going to throw some stuff out, and you throw some stuff out, and we'll just see where this takes us.  
  
1 John is great at this. 1 John 1, there's the acknowledgement that, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." We are sinners and we do sin. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him," God, "a liar, and his word is not in us." But then, 1 John 2:1-2 that comes immediately after that, John says, "I'm writing to you so that you might not sin. And if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." So in this one passage, there's a few verses. There's the acknowledgement of the reality of our sin, there is the acknowledgement that everybody is a sinner, and if we deny that about ourselves, then the truth is not in us. The goal is that we wouldn't sin. But when we do, we have an advocate who is Jesus Christ, the righteous, who pleads for us before the Father—when we sin, not once we're over it. I think that matters.  
  
Even that passage—it's not a warning passage so much, but it's an acknowledgement of this reality that the believer's life will be an ongoing fight against sin, and sometimes you're going to sin. Christ has you then because he pleads for you in that moment.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is not an exhaustive list. We'll provide these for you in our notes if you want to go read them yourself. I think we would do well to understand that once we are in Christ and his Spirit lives within us, the flesh that we now live in is not done away with. Not only that, Satan has not been finally bound where his influence is not to be seen. So to the New Testament writer who has the Spirit within them, we hear passages like 1 Peter 5:8: "Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." If he couldn't devour someone, meaning to trip them up or entangle them, then Peter wouldn't write such words—and such strong words with such vivid pictures. Ephesians 4:27: "And give no opportunity to the devil." What does he mean by that? Later on, he begins to explain. But the point of it is that you can be ensnared or entangled with the devil of James 4:7\. "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." 1 John 3:8—I think you already talked about that one. 2 Corinthians 11:3: "But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ."  
  
Justin Perdue: Ephesians 6:12: "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." This is quite a battle that we have on our hands. It's not just against our flesh—though that's intense. We also battle against Satan and the cosmic powers over this present darkness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: James 1:14: "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire." We know our own desires are sinful. The reason we read all of this is that those warning passages are not given to unbelievers. What you also do not see in those warning passages is, "If you, who is a believer who performed such a thing, are going to now be an unbeliever." As a matter of fact, 1 John 1:8 flat out says that if you say you're without sin, you're a liar. I always love to say that God, from all time, from the fall of Adam until now, has expected Christians to sin because we are dual nature now. Now we have a Spirit within us and we have our flesh. This is Galatians 5:17: the Spirit wars against the flesh, the flesh against the Spirit. This is a battle that's going on. And it's very clear in indication that Christians have and do fall snare to those temptations and do get devoured, meaning that they cannot be snuffed out, but they can absolutely be entrapped by sin.  
  
Justin Perdue: I know that Galatians 6:1 has been referenced already where when any one of you is trapped or caught in sin, those who are among you who are spiritual should restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, keeping watch on yourselves, lest you too fall or be tempted. But the implication of that is that this is going to happen in the church, and that then what needs to happen is such a person needs to be sought after and restored gently. And again, I think you're having to read into the text that until that person is restored, they are apostate and are thereby in a state of damnation and condemnation, and God has left them. Where do we find that in the Scriptures that God leaves those who are His for a season of time because of their sin?  
  
So, yes, we absolutely want to uphold the biblical teaching on sin, falling into sin, being trapped in sin, and then needing to be restored. Amen. But that period of time between the falling, being entrapped, and the restoration, that's not a season of time where the believer is lost.  
  
Let me just read this from the 1689 London Baptist Confession. This is chapter five, paragraph five on Divine Providence. This is a wonderful paragraph as to what we believe about God and the ways that He works and keeps us even through sin and really, really difficult times of failure. " The perfectly wise, righteous, and gracious God often allows his own children for a time to experience a variety of temptations in the sinfulness of their own hearts. He does this to chastise them for their former sins or to make them aware of the hidden strength of the corruption and deceitful illness of their hearts so that they may be humbled. He also does this to lead them to a closer and more constant dependence on him to sustain them, to make them more cautious about all future circumstances that may lead to sin, and for other just and holy purposes. So whatever happens to any of his elect happens by his appointment, for his glory, and for their good." It's a wonderful paragraph. God remains God, He remains our Father, He remains sovereign and purposeful and faithful even when we are faithless and floundering.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Not only that, but He uses our floundering as a means to expose us to our weakness.  
  
Justin Perdue: And to cause us to depend all the more on Him and to be humbled, lest we be self-righteous because we all tend to be.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. There are two people that we want to talk to today for the remainder of the podcast.  
  
Justin Perdue: Can we do just two more passages of Scripture, or at least refer to them? We haven't cited these yet because we reference them often, but if somebody is going to press us in terms of where we go as our last bastion of defense in arguing for what we're arguing for, it's clear. There are two places: Galatians 5:17, which is where Paul says that the flesh and the Spirit are opposed to one another, and it keeps us from doing what we want to do, and then obviously Romans 7:15 and following, where Paul writes such famous language about wanting to do good but not being able to do it, not wanting to do evil but finding himself doing it, that whenever he wants to do good, evil lies close at hand. He doesn't understand his own actions because he delights in the law of God and his inner man, yet he finds himself sinning. He then cries out in desperation, "I am such a wretched man. Who's going to deliver me?" Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. It's a very clear witness of Scripture that Christians often find themselves in that reality, in that place, and that we are dependent completely upon the Lord Jesus Christ and his righteousness for us. That's true for us not just on our best day, but also on our worst day. Christ remains our hope and stay, our advocate, our intercessor, our righteousness, our atonement, all of that.  
  
Okay. Now who are we talking to the rest of the time?  
  
Jon Moffitt: There are two groups of people that we want to talk to: one, to give a warning to, and two, to give comfort to. I think the podcast has really drawn in two types of people, and then there's going to be those people who have these in their life. The first one I want to talk to are the people who have a lot of confidence in their own flesh, they have a lot of confidence in their own discipline.  
  
Justin Perdue: You're talking to the self-righteous in that regard.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. The self-righteous in that regard. I've been doing a lot of work and thought on this lately, and we're not going to get into this today, but the danger I find for some people is they put their confidence in things, traditions, or rituals that have been handed down to us that are not based on Scripture. I find them enslaved into sin and often not willing to admit it, and are embarrassed of it, because they have done all the right things according to whatever the tradition says, and yet they find themselves enslaved in sin. And they stay in that sin for a very long time because self-righteousness cannot allow for weakness. It just can't.  
  
A lot of times those confidences are in how long they have been going to church, or how often they read their Bible, or how much Scripture they have memorized, or the disciplines of not doing this or that. Then they have a lot of confidence in saying Satan isn't able to trip them up because their confidence is in such and such things, whether it is their own abilities to do whatever. I've even heard people say, "I am so shocked that I did this," or, "I can never forgive myself for what I have done." Which means they had a higher expectation of themselves than they should have, because to say that you can't forgive yourself means that you knew better and you did it anyway. Paul says, "Well, but for the grace of God."  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen, bro. "There go I."  
  
Jon Moffitt: I will tell you, Justin and I are very weak men, and we walk around like weak men who are very scared of sin. I am terrified of sin. I know that Satan absolutely wants Justin and I to stumble. I feel it daily.  
  
Now, am I having little demons jump around all over the place or am I having these demonic experiences? Me, personally, no. But my flesh and the temptation of the world is real, and I know Satan has put those there to trip me up.  
  
Justin Perdue: Everybody is like this. I think. But for me, the battle against the flesh is always on my mind. In certain seasons, it's obviously more heightened and more pointed than others. There are plenty of things that happened in my life that I regularly think the only thing I can chalk these experiences up to are (a) the curse or the fall in general, or (b) spiritual warfare where clearly Satan and the cosmic powers over this present darkness hate me, hate my family, hate the church. And I think those things are real. We all battle this stuff. Anybody who has read the Scripture and has tried to assess these things in his or her mind is going to conclude that this battle is intense and we are in way over our heads here. We are punching far above our weight and were it not for the grace of God, and frankly, the protection that the Lord promises to us by His Spirit in His Son... You read it earlier: John 10:28-29\. Where do we pillow our heads? It's the fact that Christ has us and is never going to let us go. He says no one can take us out—and that includes Satan, and that includes our own stupidity. We are not going to pluck ourselves from Christ's hands and that's the comfort. We walk around weak and we walk around vulnerable all the time.  
  
Honestly, Christians out there, open your eyes to not only your own struggles, but the struggles of the people around you in your own local church. My goodness. It's so clear that we are fragile and frail on our own, and the only hope that we could ever have is Christ and the fact that he's got us.  
  
This matters, I think, because in having this conversation about warning the self-righteous, the kind that you mentioned is legit where people who are Christians are trusting in their own performance somehow, or their own disciplines, or whatever.  
  
There's another kind of self-righteousness though, because self-righteousness by definition means that I'm trusting in myself, that I'm good. There are people who find themselves caught in sin, perhaps, but then they don't want to call it sin. And so they say, "Well, I don't really care what the Bible says about this. I don't think it's sin." Conclusion.: "I'm fine. I don't need mercy, I don't need grace because I'm good where I stand." That is a kind of self-righteousness that's frightening. That is when we need to come in with the word of God, and even come in specifically with the law of God, to warn such a person that it doesn't matter what they think about what they're doing. Here's what the Lord has said about it, and it's not okay, and it will lead to their ruin lest they trust Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When 1 John says if one goes on sending, that's what he's referring to. If you're rejecting the mercy of Christ and seeing what you're doing is sin.  
  
Justin Perdue: You're rejecting the mercy of Christ. You don't think you need it because you have convinced yourself that what you're doing is not sin. Or perhaps you say, "Yeah, it is sin and I don't care, which is just another way of saying I'm done with this and I don't need the mercy of Christ." This is the thing: sinners who know and acknowledge that, "I am in desperate need of grace, I'm in desperate need of mercy, and I need Christ because he's the only one who has done for me what I could never do for myself," to those people there is comfort. But to those who think they're good, either in their own strength, in their own discipline, or just don't need Jesus because they think what they're doing is fine, there isn't comfort there.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We won't see these in petty sins. People aren't going to say it's okay to lie or to steal or to murder. Where we do see this the most is in sexual conduct.  
  
Justin Perdue: Totally. It almost always has to do with sex.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's where you're going to see it. Even the Bible will speak of that where the debauched nature will go and change the very nature of God to justify their sins. I think in the United States—and we're not going to get into this today—but I think this will become an interesting place where we, with grace and mercy and kindness, uphold the law of God here; I think there could be some form of persecution as it relates to that.  
  
Justin Perdue: Totally. There are a number of reasons why this is going to come to a head in the church and this is not that podcast. We'll talk about that later. Just to be very clear, what we've tried to do in talking to the self-righteous for a moment is to be clear in what we're saying, and also what we're not saying. We don't want to be misunderstood. All there ever is comfort for people who are sinning and just don't care, or who are sinning and don't think it's sin, or to try to comfort people who are trusting in their own righteousness somehow. That's not the point. That's dangerous. But now I think we're going to pivot to talk to another group of people that I think is much more common, at least like in the Theocast Facebook group or amongst our listeners. It's those who are struggling and those who know that they're sinners who are really questioning, "Could I be struggling like I am and legitimately be in Christ?"  
  
Jon Moffitt: For the person that I think is putting a lot of confidence in themselves... because you have performed in these ways, you're trusting in your own works and in your own discipline, these warning passages that we just read about falling into temptation and being aware of the devil, those are not disconnected from the rest of those sections, which then gives you the conclusion of how you're protected. For instance, in Hebrews, he says, "But exhort one another every day, as long as it's called "today", that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." How is it that the writer of Hebrews says this is how you aren't deceived by sin? It's the exhortation of believers. We could even go to Ephesians 4 where he says when the church functions properly—the administration of God's Word to the public, teaching and preaching is given to the church to do the work of the ministry—so that they will not be tossed about by every wind of doctrine. They will not be deceived by Satan. Those are just two examples and for the sake of time, we're not going to keep going. But those are examples of our confidence found within the local body where we are administering God's word appropriately. That's where we find our safety.  
  
Justin Perdue: Our confidence is found in the local body where we're gathering together, and we're. partaking of the means of grace together, and we're encouraging one another and living life together. What you're saying dovetails beautifully with what I wanted to say here, too. What is the antidote for the person who is really struggling and is thinking, "My gosh. I'm sinning, but I don't want to sin, but I am. I don't know if I've got enough faith." And all of these kinds of things. "Am I really in Christ? Would I struggle this way if I'm a Christian legitimately?" The antidote is never to look within whenever that happens.  
  
You mentioned a couple of great passages. I'm going to mention another one also in the book of Ephesians. We already read Ephesians 6:12, talking about the battle that's on our hands against cosmic powers of this present darkness and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places, ala Satan, and all of the powers that make up the powers of the air—to use the language earlier in Ephesians. It's a big deal.  
  
So then what does Paul say? "Therefore put on the armor of God." And we're going to do a podcast soon on the armor of God. But in short, when Paul says put on the armor of God, the exhortation is put on Christ. This war that we're fighting against Satan and the cosmic powers over this present darkness is real. Y'all better put on Jesus because he is the only way to stand against this kind of warfare. And the things that he exhorts us to have nothing to do with us. It's called the armor of God—I think that's significant—but even the things he lists like having fastened on the belt of truth. Well, whose truth is that? Not yours; it's God's. Truth about what? Himself and us, and ultimately about redemption—and that truth centers on Christ. Put on the breastplate of righteousness. Well, whose righteousness is that? It isn't yours, I promise you. You're going to wage war against the devil with your own righteousness. Good luck with that. But what he's talking about clearly is the righteousness of Christ that's been counted to us by faith. So that's where we'd look. Put on as shoes for your feet the readiness of the gospel of peace. Well, what is that? The good news of peace—peace with God. How? Through the Lord Jesus Christ and what he has done for us. It's not you. Take up the shield of faith. Notice that it's not the shield of faithfulness; it's not your fidelity to God, it is who you are trusting? I don't care how imperfect it is either. You might very imperfectly and weakly be trusting in the Lord Jesus, and yet the object of your faith, namely Christ, saves you. The helmet of salvation. Well, whose salvation is that? Salvation is of who? The Lord. We could go on.  
  
That's an antidote though: don't look to yourself; put on Jesus and look to him, trust him, cast yourself upon him. And I think that in time, comfort will come as you continue to remind yourself of this daily, but ultimately, as you gather with saints and you sit under preaching that hopefully is going to point you to him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. This last few minutes that we have, Justin, I think we need to get down into the dirty section of this, to where it really gnaws at the conscience of some people in the self-righteous camp and those who are ensnared in sin. I'm praying that this podcast will be sent to people who find themselves trapped, who want to repent but they have had really bad theology given to them. Penance is what they think is necessary.  
  
A couple of passages that we want to talk about that we alluded to in the beginning... Let's start with 1 John 2\. It says, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation," or the payment, "of our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." What is important is that every time John or the writers speak of sin, you never hear them throw a caveat, or a list of sins, or "this except for this sin". Some people would even say that if someone commits suicide, then that sin cannot be forgiven. Then that means there's something that can separate you from the love of God, including your own actions, which cannot be the case. Otherwise, Paul wouldn't have said that multiple times.  
  
I think it's important that when we're talking about the story of the prodigal son... he pretty much committed some serious heinous crimes against the father. We look at the apostle Peter and David. Let's just pick out the three big ones: two being legitimate real men, one being hypothetical. You look at every single one of those stories and you don't see God rejecting them or pushing them off for calling into question the legitimacy of the relationship of the adopted child. Just thinking about the apostle Peter... it wasn't just cussing.  
  
Justin Perdue: He denied the Lord Jesus Christ but Jesus is clear before it even happens: " Satan wants to do this, he wants to sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you." There's Christ's intercessory work. "And when you've turned again, strengthen your brothers." It's not as though between Peter's denial of Jesus and his turning, which I think happens pretty much instantaneously by the way, because when Peter looks at the Lord Jesus Christ and Jesus looks at him when Peter was standing in the courtyard upon his denial, he knows what he's done. He said he would never do it, but the thing he swore he would never do, he's done—and he's wrecked. It's not as though Peter's relationship with Jesus was ever in question.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Nathan the prophet doesn't question David's faith in God other than his blindness to his own sins. When you think about ensnared, devouring, deceit, there's a cloak and dagger kind of a deal going on here. There are shadows and hiding. I think, from what we have seen from Scripture, hopefully your confidence can be in two things: one, that if you are in sin, you can have confidence in the Advocate, not yourself. You can have confidence in God's promises. There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate of one who is in faith in Christ, even if they're trapped in sin. If your faith is in Christ, there is no sin you cannot repent of. 1 John does not indicate in chapter one or two that there is a limit to your repentance, or that there is a sin that you cannot repent of. The only thing you can't repent of is unbelief and that is given to you. So if you have the gift of faith that's been granted to you by the Father, the second gift that's been given to you is endless repentance. I know that sounds radical. They hear me say " endless repentance" and what are they thinking I'm saying? What they're thinking is, "Jon, if you say that or emphasize that, then people will just sin however they want."  
  
Justin Perdue: And there will be no skin in the game and people won't feel the need to repent.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You read those warning passages and how horrible sin is... that's not the case. What I'm trying to say is that there are people who are listening to this podcast right now, and they're like, "There's no hope for me. I can't do it. I've gone too long. I've gone too far. There's too much required." No, the kindness of the Father is leading us to repentance. His grace is sufficient. His mercy is there. You can be restored to the intimate, loving relationship, into the body of Christ.  
  
Justin, this is why even in church discipline, at moments when a Christian is being so fooled by sin, that we have to treat them like a non-believer for a while to shock their system. It's as if we are saying, "Do you realize what you are missing out on? The glory and the joy of the body of Christ. We're going to have to let Satan have his way with you so when you are fully sapped and you're dry, we're going to refresh you with mercy again."  
  
Justin Perdue: Even in that sense, church discipline is a means of restoration, and that's how God gave it to us. It's not a weapon to bludgeon people with. It's an instrument of restoring sinners because that's what God's in the business of doing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Justin, going over, we have already discussed that there are traditions that have different opinions on this. Some of these traditions are very old; some of them are new. We're going to look at the varying traditions that have different perspectives on apostasy and assurance. That is going to be a part of our Semper Reformanda podcast, a.k.a. class.  
  
For those of you that would like to join what we are doing, you can do so by joining Semper Reformanda. That is a ministry that has two parts to it. It's a podcast where Justin and I continue the conversation on a deeper unfiltered level, where we let you in on the backside of the conversation. And then number two, we have groups that you can join either online or locally, where you can then discuss this podcast with other listeners in your area. These groups are being formulated and we should be launching them by now. If you would like to start one or be a part of one in your local area, just go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com, and you can learn more about that.  
  
Justin, it was a good conversation, my friend. We have a lot coming our way. I'll just throw this out there. You and I are getting ready to do a book study or a book review of Lordship salvation with John MacArthur's book. That's coming up.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or at least an episode on Lordship where we'll talk some about it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yup. And then armor of God. We've got some good stuff. I just wish that we could record more than once a week, but this is what we can do.  
  
We'll see you guys next week.  
  
Justin Perdue: See you.

---

### There Is No Christ in Your Genesis, Sir

*Published: May 19, 2021 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/there-is-no-christ-in-your-genesis-sir*
*Tags: Christ in the Old Testament, Creation Science, Creationism, Genesis*

Is there any Christ in your Genesis? The book of Genesis is often mishandled. Peripheral things are over-emphasized and the main point is lost. Jon and Justin talk about Genesis from a redemptive-historical, covenantal, and Christ-centered perspective.  
  
Semper Reformanda Podcast: Jon and Justin take a deeper dive into covenant theology and the book of Genesis. It is our perspective that Genesis cannot be rightly understood apart from a covenantal framework. We aim to explain how and why.  
  
**Resources:**
* [Our Covenant Theology teaching series](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1zYCPUTobU)
* [Book study on Sam Renihan's book](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByARBXbQfCo&list=PL5OjtM2rVrI38rdQ8qB2CuI06qvb6sxN3)
* [Our episode: Is Your Theological System Any Good?](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-your-theological-system-any-good/)
* [Ask Theocast: GENESIS: About Creation? A Science Book? NEITHER?!?!](https://youtu.be/eeQnq7ym5sE)
Book Giveaway: ["Grace in Despair" by Dianna Carroll](https://amzn.to/3yqkYOa)  
  
SUPPORT Theocast: [https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/ ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/)  
  
FACEBOOK: Theocast: [https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org ](https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org)  
  
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INSTAGRAM: Theocast: https://www.instagram.com/theocast\_org/  
  
https://youtu.be/waEQoY56Tks  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Let me begin by asking you a question: is there any Jesus in your Genesis? Today on Theocast, Jon and I are going to be talking about the book of Genesis, the ways that it is often mishandled, and how we often miss the main point of that wonderful book. We're going to look at Genesis today from a redemptive-historical perspective, from a covenantal perspective with Jesus at the center. We hope it's encouraging for you.  
  
We're going to take a deeper dive into covenant theology over in Semper Reformanda, and how that relates to our understanding of Genesis. We hope all of this is helpful and encouraging to you. Stay tuned.  
  
For those who listen to us all the time, you might be ready for what I'm going to say: we talk about redemptive-historical theology and the redemptive-historical framework of the Bible. We talk about covenant theology and we talk about a very Christ-centered way to understand the entirety of Scripture.  
  
Today, we're going to put some of those tools to work, and we're going to have a conversation about the very first book of the Bible—and that's obviously none other than the book of Genesis. There are many takes on the book of Genesis in our day. There are a lot of things said about it that, we don't want to bury the lead here, that Jon and I find to be a little bit less than helpful and confusing. And the main point of Genesis, we fear, is often lost because of some of these peripheral things that often become the focus. In particular, what we want to do today is be able to talk about Jesus from the book of Genesis.  
  
The episode title, if you've already looked at it, is _There is No Jesus in Your Genesis, Sir_, which is a reference to a Charles Spurgeon quote, a paraphrase of the Charles Spurgeon quote, where he said, "No Christ in your sermon, sir? Go home and never preach again until you have something worth saying."  
  
So we're going to talk about the book of Genesis today on a number of levels. We're going to begin by just talking about some of the things that are often the focus of evangelicalism when it comes to the book of Genesis and hopefully have a little fun; we have a little fun in a gracious way and point out how that's less than helpful.  
  
And then we're going to pivot and talk about the ways that we think we should understand the book. I hope that this is mega encouraging for the listener as we think about how God the Son is all over the place in the book of Genesis.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What is the book of Genesis about? I asked this to my kids the other day just to test them out. Justin has his hands way up in the air. And the common answer is...  
  
Justin Perdue: Creation.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Creation. That's right. What is interesting is Justin, you're preaching through the book. I'll throw you on the spot here. How many chapters are in Genesis?  
  
Justin Perdue: 50.  
  
Jon Moffitt: 50\. And how many of those chapters are in reference to creation?  
  
Justin Perdue: Two.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right.  
  
Justin Perdue: I've got my hand raised. Can I make some comments? Ask me what Genesis is about.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We'll get there. We'll get there.  
  
I grew up influenced by what's called an evidentialist apologetic. For those of you that are new to Theocast, or maybe new to this whole idea, apologetics is to give an answer. You're not apologizing for something because you feel sorry, but it's to provide an answer. And there are two different categories of apologetics: you have evidentialist, meaning that with enough evidence you can provide solid truth so that someone can make a logical decision to follow Christ. So apologetic through evidence. And then Justin, what would be the opposite of an apologetic perspective?  
  
Justin Perdue: Presuppositionalist perspective? That means we understand that there are presuppositions that must be maintained and held if one is going to see these truths as legitimate and valid, and ultimately, given that we understand that God is the one who grants us true wisdom and sight by His grace, we understand that we're not going to reason anybody into the kingdom of God and that God must do a work in someone's life in order to cause them, help them, by His grace to see these things as true.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Those are the two perspectives. The one I came from was an evidentialist perspective. We're going to be as kind as we can be here, but this is the reality. We always try. We're sinners and we often need to repent.  
  
Anyways, what you end up getting into is an evolution/creation debate, and we use the Bible—specifically the book of Genesis—as a science textbook, or as you like to say, a documentary on creation. We then go through and we try to prove the legitimacy of creation, which I understand and I would agree with, that we can look at science to see the glory of God and to strengthen and encourage our faith. There's nothing wrong with that. But as we do with any text of the Bible, we need to always ask two very important questions: who is the audience and what's the author's intention of writing to that audience? And that will tell you the purpose of the book.  
  
Justin Perdue: And alongside that, as the divine Author of the entire Bible, what is God meaning for us to understand here too? And I know you agree.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. The hard part about when we're thinking about Genesis is that we immediately focus on the scientific/historical side of it—and it is important. If you don't have a historical Adam and Eve, you're going to be falling off into heresy after chapter 2\. So we have a problem.  
  
We understand the debate; this is not what this debate is about. We hold to a historic understanding of Adam and Eve, but when it comes down to our understanding of Genesis, because we have created such an evidentialist/this is an evolution-creation debate, we miss the whole point of why Genesis was written and the purpose of Genesis in modern day life. Our life today, as a believer—what is it supposed to be for us? There's the Creation Museum, we've got the big ark over in Kentucky, and people would ask me what my thoughts are on that. I think there are some helpful things there for Christians. They can go there and be encouraged. It's a lot of money. I don't know if I would have spent all that money on that. So if someone wants to give me multi-millions of dollars, I probably will use it for something else. But I'm not here to judge—I don't live far from Kentucky, so probably one day I'll take my kids to go see it.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'll even go so far as to say, in a slightly more joke-ish, punchy way, that if the initial thought bubbles that go up from your head when the book of Genesis is mentioned is creation versus evolution, if you immediately think Creation Museum and you immediately think Ark in Kentucky, then this podcast is for you. With all due respect, not that those things are bad. And like Jon said, there's a time and a place for some of these debates and conversations. There are useful things, I'm sure. Going to the Creation Museum or going to the ark in Kentucky could be a great experience to have with your family. I also don't think that Christians that don't go are going to be missing out on something that is somehow just essential to our faith because the point of the book of Genesis is something entirely different.  
  
I'll go ahead and say this really quickly before we get into more of the meat of the episode. When you read Genesis 1 and 2, your mind should immediately go to Revelation 21 and 22\. Because in reading the account of creation, we are reading that in light of God's promise of the consummation of redemption and restoration at the end of it. There are striking parallels between those respective chapters at the beginning and end of the Bible. I think this episode is going to maybe flesh out for us why and how that's the case.  
  
It's sad that we have sort of gotten lost in the weeds—and the concerns that are peripheral at best have become the main focus of our conversation about this book of the Bible. And we miss the main point and are robbed of really edifying and encouraging stuff.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Justin, if you don't mind, I'd like to give the context to Genesis and why it was written, and then we'll move from that to try and give us a fuller explanation, comparing to what most commentaries and what most people do with Genesis. Then, I think, we're going to argue the way in which the Bible has used the book of Genesis and we'll go from there.  
  
We need to think about the historical context at this point. I know that this is a little bit snarky, but Genesis was not written the day after creation. Adam didn't have a pen out and was tracking along.  
  
Justin Perdue: It was actually written millennia after.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yes. 2,500 plus years is the estimate of how much recorded history had passed in Genesis before it was given us. So you have to understand why then was it written so far down the line? Let's just think about the history. To understand Genesis, I would say Genesis is the prologue to Exodus, and in many ways you would want to go read Exodus first because it explains why Genesis exists. I know that the order of the books come in Genesis, Exodus, but it is for this very reason: Moses is the author of the Pentateuch. Moses' life and story explain the necessity of why these books were written. This is, I would say, the really fast prologue introductions to the whole explanation of Genesis. The people of Israel who had been enslaved in Egypt for 400 years, they have not only been there that long, but there is no recorded history other than the verbal history that's been handed to them about Abraham and the promises of Abraham, and they have become flat out polytheists, and it becomes the plague of the nation for the rest of their existence. It's just horrible. God talks about whoring after other gods and idols constantly with the prophets and even Moses. When they're brought out, Moses is up on the mountain. He comes back and what are they doing? They're worshiping another golden calf. So you have an issue of polytheism. When Moses leaves and he goes up on the mountain and brings back the 10 commandments, what's the first commandment? "You should have no other gods before me", which is the issue Israel is going to face. When Moses begins to write this, he's not writing this with the absence of reality. In Egyptian history, the tradition was that there wasn't one god who created everything; there were multiple gods.  
  
Justin Perdue: And that was true of all the ancient Near Eastern creation accounts.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So Moses is writing in such a way that it's shocking to say that in the beginning, Yahweh, one God, created all things. You have to understand that there is definitely an apologetic going on. It's polytheism, not evolution, that he's going after. This is a monotheistic religion that Moses is introducing to a polytheistic people.  
  
Justin Perdue: Sure. A few comments here on not only Moses writing it, but what he's doing. As we've already said, Genesis is historical and Moses is writing redemptive history, and it's really important that we understand that. That's why I say it's not a documentary, it's not a history textbook. It's not written like that.  
  
Two things can be true at the same time, and I think this is worth mentioning: we can uphold the fact that even the account of creation is written in a very beautiful and literary way, and at the same time, uphold its historicity. Those things are not mutually exclusive. I know sometimes people lose their minds when we start to talk about the literary elements of the way Moses wrote the book, but he is writing redemptive history for the people of Israel. And like you said, Jon, if anything, the creation account in Genesis is written as a polemic against not only polytheism generally, but also specifically against other creation myths that would have existed. It's very clear as you study it because there are very interesting distinctions between Genesis and these other accounts of creation, and those distinctions make all the difference. They're too coincidental to be a coincidence. So Moses knows what he's doing.  
  
Now, is Genesis—and the Bible in general—useful in speaking to atheism? Yeah, because in the Bible, it's very clear that people have denied the existence of God forever. The fool says in his heart that there is no God and all that. So we're not saying that one can't use the Bible to argue against an atheistic worldview, but understand why Genesis was written to the people of Israel originally. I think it does matter.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I do not feel the necessity, at any moment, when I am dealing with unbelievers or even the atheist to prove to them the evidence of science or use science to prove Scripture. And the reason I have to say that is Paul is very clear that the fool has said in his heart that there is no God. That's Proverbs. But Paul has also said that the unbeliever will look at the Word of God, specifically the gospel, and call it foolish.  
  
Justin Perdue: And the unbeliever will suppress the truth about God and unrighteousness. Romans 1\. So, clearly, God has to do a work in a person's heart and mind in order for the person to ever see God's existence is true and good.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Now, does that mean that any efforts at apologetics, when it relates to creation and all that, is of no value? No.  
  
Justin Perdue: We want to clear up misunderstanding.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. I just think we need to be very careful that we don't use Genesis in a way it was not intended to be used. If you think that God wrote that so that we could prove to the evolutionists they're wrong, evolution didn't come around until many, many, many years later.  
  
Justin Perdue: Let's talk about Genesis and what it's about. What is Genesis about? Short answer: Genesis is about redemption. Because that's what the whole Bible is about. It is also more specifically about redemption accomplished through God the Son who took on flesh, and that is in view all throughout the book of Genesis.  
  
Let's begin with the account of creation in Genesis 1:1 and following. Is Jesus in Genesis? Is God the Son in Genesis, even Genesis 1? Absolutely. He is. We should not read Genesis one without thinking of some other passages of Scripture. So when we read in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning, God..." our mind should immediately go to John 1\. "In the beginning," the exact same construction, "was the Word," who is the divine Word, God the Son, "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." So in that sense, God the Son is the beginning of all things in terms of this world, and he is the agent of creation through whom the whole thing is made.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say that we need to, I would say as the Reformers do, but I would argue as the apostles do, they use the New Testament in order to interpret and explain the Old Testament. This is a great example of that.  
  
Justin Perdue: A couple of other texts just for our encouragement: Colossians 1:16 about Jesus. "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Did the readers of Genesis, when Moses wrote the Pentateuch, fully understand that?  
  
Justin Perdue: Of course not. Did Moses understand it fully?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Probably not.  
  
Justin Perdue: This is an epic thought: the writer of the Hebrews, at the beginning of his letter, he says that God has spoken to us at various times in various ways through the prophets, etc. "But in these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son. . . through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high." Think about that thought, that the one through whom all things were made is the very one who takes on flesh to go and live in that world, suffer in that world, bleed in that world, and die in that world in order to save sinners. I think it's legit that we see that from the opening tip of Scripture. Genesis 1:1—there it is. "In the beginning, God...." We have God the Son present, and we need to think about God the Son and his redemptive work that he would do, connecting it to these other passages in the Bible.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say there are two ways in which Genesis has been read, but they come to the same conclusions. When the children of Israel would hear the law read over them constantly and they would memorize it, they would write it upon the tables of their heart—all of the commands that we have given to us and Deuteronomy—they would hear it as the same way: it is the history of redemption. The reason is that in Exodus, they just entered into a covenant with a God they really don't know much about. And Moses says, "Here's the God you just entered into covenant with. He is the creator. He's also the one who made the promise to restore that which was broken."  
  
So Moses, through the inspiration of the Spirit, is explaining how they got from creation to Egypt, and explaining the faithfulness of God along the way. I will say that the most important part of the story of Genesis is the fall, because the question then becomes, one, we know that there is sin because everyone experiences it. Moses just explains how it got here. And then the greatest part about Genesis is that you have the Creator of the universe, and now you're going to have the restoration by the Creator.  
  
Justin Perdue: He's the Restorer of the universe.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In the mind of the reader, the question has to be, "Who is the seed of Eve?" Because when he shows up, then all will be made right. That's the question the reader has.  
  
Justin Perdue: And we're going to get to that promise in just a minute. But I think you're right. I think it's important for people to see that the work of redemption is effectively the work of re-creation. That's what God is about. We're just going to pepper some stuff in here from the early chapters of Genesis. Even in verses three through five where God creates light, I think this is significant. And I think it preaches a sermon about Christ. Because there is light in the universe now, and light only comes from God—without God, there's darkness—but there's light that exists without the sun being created yet. And people sometimes lose their minds and wig out. How is there light without the sun? Have you read the book of Revelation? Have you read Revelation 21 where we're told that the Heavenly City has no need of sun or moon to shine on it for the glory of God gives it light and its lamp is the Lamb.  
  
Jesus, also according to John's gospel, in him, in the Word was life, and that life was the light of men, the true light that enlightens everyone who is coming into the world. So Christ is described that way. He's going to literally be the light of the new heavens and the new earth. So we ought to see that in the early chapters of Genesis: there's light that exists apart from the sun. It's preaching Christ to us.  
  
Last thing, if you'll allow me from the creation account early there. The seventh day, the Sabbath day; it's a very unique day because all the other six days have this common refrain of "there was evening," "there was morning," "the first, second, third, etc. day." The seventh day doesn't have that refrain. Many Christians through history have understood that to be a pointer to Christ because that seventh day is awaiting its fulfillment, and that seventh day of our Sabbath rest finds its yes and amen in Christ. In particular, it's fulfilled when Jesus would lay in a tomb outside Jerusalem. 1500 years after Moses wrote these words, he's going to lay in a tomb outside Jerusalem on the seventh day of the week because his work is done. Redemption is over. Sin is atoned for. Righteousness fulfilled. And he's going to get up from the dead on the next day to usher us into the new creation. And then the writer to the Hebrews picks up on that and tells us that we have entered into God's Sabbath rest when we cease from our working, like God rested from His. And we know that Christ is the fulfillment of that rest that we are promised forever, but it's already ours in Him.  
  
Genesis 1 and the early verses of Genesis two—we should read these in light of Christ and what God is going to do through him if we're going to read Genesis like Christians.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Genesis is a Christian book, just to be clear. The Old Testament is a Christian book. I mentioned there are two ways to read it: first of all, it's treated as an Israelite who understands that God is the one redeeming them and they're looking forward to the seed of Eve, and then it comes through the seed of Abraham, and so we gain clarity. You have the promise and then you have the narrative of humanity about how they just constantly prove they are in desperate need of restoration, or I would say rescuing. You get to the flood and God says no one is righteous, and so He abolishes the world. And then just like anybody would ever think, if we could start all over and just get rid of all the bad people, God proved that won't work. Because the problem is not with the current people on the earth; the problem is that it's in the heart or in the seed of man—it's passed down.  
  
Justin Perdue: If we're going to talk about Adam and Noah, Noah is a type of Adam. God wipes humanity off the face of the earth because He sees that the inclinations of man's heart is only evil continually in Genesis 6\. After the flood, God has hit the reset button but the problem with Noah is that he's too much like Adam. Basically, sin remains. We even see one of Noah's sons is cursed, like God cursed humanity, the snake, and the whole creation in the garden. Just hitting the reset button and wiping people off the earth is not going to fix this. There's something more fundamentally at issue here.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The second way it's read, as modern day Christians, is that we have the whole Canon now, and we allow the New Testament interpretation of the book of Genesis to be the filter by which we then go back and read and say with full confidence that Genesis is the introduction of Jesus to us, not only of the Father, but Jesus, the Creator and Sustainer of the world. And not only that, but the Spirit that moved upon the water. So we allow the New Testament to be read now as redemptive as well, but we read it as seeing that it's the fulfillment of Jesus and how we get Jesus to this point. I think, as an Israelite or as a modern day Christian, we both read Genesis from a redemptive historical understanding of Scripture because it's how we get Jesus.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's a great observation. You have the Trinity in the first two verses of Genesis 1, because you have the Father, and then the Son is the agent of creation, and the Spirit hovering over the face of the deep. That's a pretty cool thought, too.  
  
Going back to the garden and thinking about Adam and Eve, covenants and promises, and the like... Jon, let's not bury the lead here. We are convinced, and we're going to talk about this in Semper Reformanda in detail, that it is impossible to rightly understand Genesis apart from a covenantal framework—and that's a big deal. More on that over in Semper Reformanda. We're going to talk a little bit about some of this stuff right now. So God makes Adam and Eve in His own image, and then God makes a covenant with Adam where He gives him things that he is to do, and He gives him prohibitions—one prohibition in particular that there's a particular tree that he's not to eat of, and He gives a sanction: "If you break this covenant that I've made with you, then in the day that you break it, you'll surely die." Adam, in that sense, is serving as the representative of the entire human race. And when he falls into sin, he plunges all of humanity and all of the creation into sin and ruin along with him.  
  
How do we know this is true? We could go a number of places, but we can go to the book of Romans where Paul connects all of these things for us, and we see that through one man's disobedience, all of this wreckage and ruin has come upon us. But then through the obedience of the new Adam, the second Adam—Christ—that many will be made righteous. And so we can connect Adam and Christ that way, and see that God intended that if Adam had obeyed and had been righteous, that all would have been well with humanity. But because he fell and we fell in him, there now has to be another one who can represent us before God and actually accomplish all of the terms of the covenant that God made with Adam. He is perfectly obedient, he is sinless, he is completely righteous, and then his work is counted to us and he represents us for all of those who are united to him in faith. I don't think it's overstating it to say that that promise that God makes to Adam and Eve in the aftermath of the fall, that there will come a seed of the woman who will step on, who will crush the serpent's head—that is the proto-euangelion, the first promise of the gospel, as it's often referred to—that is the promise we would say of the covenant of grace.  
  
The rest of the entire Bible—it's a big book, and Genesis 3:15 is only a few pages in—the rest of the entire Bible is the unfolding and the accomplishment of that promise.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. Yes, creation is a big part of it. But I would say I agree with Justin: the covenant of works, and I would call it the first Adam and the last Adam, or he's also described as the second Adam in that Christ is the fulfillment where Adam failed. And you have Paul mentioning this language and using this language that Jesus is the second Adam. In many ways, that's what you're waiting for. You're waiting for the federal head, meaning the representative of humanity. Federal head is a language that I was introduced to by Reformed theology, and a lot of people struggle with the concept of a federal head, but federal means representative. Because Adam sinned, we are all sinners. We inherited his sin. He is the representative of humanity. If you reject that theology, it's kind of dangerous because that's the very thing that Paul says: in Adam all died because he is the original human and his disobedience is now passed on to us. But it also says in Christ, all are made alive.  
  
So, you want federal headship because if you don't have it, then Christ can't be your representative for righteousness. This doctrine is introduced in the very beginning, in the very first book, and it really becomes the theme. Because you see the federal head and the representative of the effects of it in Genesis 3:16 and following, and all of a sudden, you see the curses that come forward, you see the fallout, and then you also see the promise of the federal head of Christ, the second Adam, which is in the seed. And you see the story of the two seeds, which we would argue is the two covenants—covenant of grace versus covenant of works—Christ being the promise of the covenant of grace. If you want to know what we mean by that, we did a whole five-part series on the covenant of grace or covenant theology. It'll be in the show notes. So go down there and find that it's free. Go listen to it. There's a whole handout. We encourage you to do so.  
  
The reason why we mentioned this is that it helps you understand and really flow the narrative, where you're not trying to find one evidence to prove somebody wrong about history. Number two, you're not trying to find moral application. Can you find moral application in these texts? Sure. Don't be like Adam and Eve and disobey God. But you're missing what's really happening and the superstar of the story, which is God using Jesus to redeem sinners. That's the superstory, and there are these stories under that.  
  
I will say this: in the dispensational-evidentialist world, it seems like the superstar of the story, which should be Christ, is put down as a subset and everything else becomes a priority, whether it's the evidence of creation or moralism, the "be like" whoever...  
  
Justin Perdue: I would argue that it's not just in the evidentialist-dispensational world. I agree completely with what you assessed about that world, but I think in other streams within evangelicalism, there are still things that are inappropriate, like there's an off-centered emphasis. For example, even in thinking about Genesis 2 and the covenant God makes with Adam, I think people are happy in a general sense, to say that Adam represents us and that in his fall he represents us. But there's not always that obvious connection made with how everything that was lost in Adam and then some is going to be gained for us in Christ. We miss that connection or we emphasize things that are secondary application as though they're the main takeaway. In Genesis 3 and the account of the fall, how many times have you heard sermons where the emphasis is Adam and Eve doubting God's word? And that's the problem. Or Adam didn't lead Eve like he should have, and that's the emphasis.  
  
I'm not saying that all of that is illegitimate to say at all, but the point of that text is the fall of humanity into sin because our first covenant head and federal head fell and failed in the covenant that God had made with him. And there was a promise immediately upon sin entering the world, and immediately upon us in Adam blowing it—there's the promise of grace, there's the promise of Christ in the gospel. And God went, "I've got this. I'm going to save a people. You guys, because you have such a thing as freedom of choice, right in the garden, you have blown this. But I'm a Redeemer and I always have been, and I'm good. And there's one who's coming." that needs to be what we preach from Genesis 3\. And then as we make our way through the rest of the book, we're tracing those two lines of the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent.  
  
And the question that you often will ask, Jon, that I think is a really good one: as we're reading the rest of the Bible, we're thinking who that promised seed is. When is he coming? That's what we're finding out as it unfolds through farther steps in Revelation, unfolds through the rest of the Old Testament, where we are primed and ready by the time the angels announce to Mary and to Joseph that there's one coming who's going to be named Jesus, because he's going to save his people from their sins. Thank God he's coming. He's here.  
  
I think that we do people a tremendous disservice when we do not emphasize the redemptive plan of God accomplished through Christ, that has always been the plan not just from Genesis 1, but from before the world began.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would even say what is great when you start having a Christocentric understanding or a redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture, you begin to see the connection. There's a flow. There's a cohesiveness to the text. One of the things I love about the grace that's in the New Testament is absolutely seen in the Old Testament. Here's a great example: God comes into the garden and says, "Hey, Adam! Where are you?" As if God does not know. It's like, "Hey, buddy. I know you're hiding. I know what you just did." It's like you caught the kid with the hand in the cookie jar, but it's far worse than that. You caught them with a bloody knife and he just murdered. What does God do when He promises the seed? What requirement did He put on Adam and Eve?  
  
Justin Perdue: Nothing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Nothing. He did one thing: He separated himself from their presence and then said, "Oh, and by the way, not have anything to do with you, but through my providence and my promises, I will then restore your presence back to me." That's grace, right? To receive unmerited favor. And it was seen right in the beginning. God not only promises Jesus, but promises Jesus with no strings attached. That's good news.  
  
Justin Perdue: I could talk about this for a long time, but we got to get over to Semper Reformanda. I'll make a couple of brief comments about something you just raised.  
  
What we've done today, I hope, with Genesis is maybe begin to show people how they can and should read their entire Old Testament. Because I do think a lot of people approach the Old Testament in a number of ways that are bad. We've touched on several. One, for many people, the Old Testament is just like a wasteland: it's hard, it's full of law and threats. There is maybe an occasional oasis because there's a prophecy about the Messiah or some promise of grace or comfort or restoration. But generally speaking, the Old Testament is just hard. We ought not see it that way if we're looking at it through this Christocentric, redemptive-historical lens. You already talked about our tendency to moralize the Old Testament, where we follow around these Old Testament saints and figure out how to be like them. That's not a good way to approach the Old Testament.  
  
Lastly, I think people tend to approach the Old Testament, and this is probably especially true in a dispensationalist framework with an almost completely law-centered mentality. What are you doing with that? You're mining through every text to find the things that we need to be doing or the things that we need to not do, and that becomes the point of the message.  
  
Here's the issue: none of that squares with how Jesus understood the Scriptures and none of that squares with how the apostles understood the Scriptures. And remember that for Jesus and the apostles, the Scriptures were the Old Testament. That was their Bible at that time. They understand that whole thing, the Old Testament, to be a testimony about Christ. And so we should certainly understand the book of Genesis that way. And I think we've tried to do that this morning as we've recorded.  
  
So we're about to make our way over to Semper Reformanda, which is a podcast for those who have partnered with Theocast and have joined the Reformation, as we like to say, to see this message and this theology spread as far and wide as possible. Because Jesus really is enough for us to have peace with God now and forever, and we want as many people to know that rest and that peace is possible. If you don't even know what Semper Reformanda is, you could find out more information about it and the ways that you could partner with our ministry over at our website, the URL for that is wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. We encourage you to go check out everything we got over there on the site, including how to become a member of Semper Reformanda.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And a big part of the membership is online and local groups where you can get together and discuss the podcast each week. So don't miss out on that.  
  
Justin Perdue: Not only are you partnering with us, but we're trying to create a community where you can love on each other and encourage each other and sharpen each other. So if that sounds good to you, go check it out.  
  
We will talk with many of you over there on SR. I think that's the lingo we're using these days.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And what are we talking about?  
  
Justin Perdue: How a covenantal framework is essential to our understanding of Genesis, and in a lot of ways the Bible, but especially Genesis.  
  
All right. We'll see you over there guys.

---

### Self + Righteousness = Rubbish

*Published: May 12, 2021 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/self-righteousness-rubbish*
*Tags: self righteousness*

Let's be real, self-righteousness is a problem in the church. When we are self-righteous, it is very dangerous for others--and it is detrimental for ourselves. Jon and Justin talk about the blindness of self-righteousness, the harm that comes from it, and, of course, the sufficiency of Christ.  
  
Semper Reformanda Podcast: Jon and Justin speak to people who are in the "cage stage" of coming out of pietism. In short, calm down, trust Christ, love others, and pursue obedience. The guys also consider the posture we want to have in engaging others. In all of this, it's important to remember that it is the law--not the gospel--that is a hammer.  
  
Scripture:  
John 19:31  
Philippians 3:1-11  
Luke 18:9-14  
Matthew 7:1-5  
Romans 2:1-3  
  
Book Recommendation: ["The Whole Christ" by Sinclair Ferguson](https://amzn.to/3o6LmaQ)  
  
https://youtu.be/8pD30Ja3R3w  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we are going to be discussing self-righteousness. Let's be real: it has really been affecting the church and those around the church. This is a problem that goes all the way back to Philippians 3 when Paul talks about his own self-righteousness. We hope it's a helpful conversation. Justin and I are both encouraged by it, and we hope you are, too. Stay tuned.  
  
There's so many angles to this, but today we're talking about all the different negative dangers, weaponization of self-righteousness. It is a tricky topic because self-righteousness is not this glaring rock that's written in the middle of the road that everybody can see that they need to drive around. Often, self-righteousness is that big pothole we don't see and we fall right into it—and the damage can be quite significant.  
  
Justin Perdue: I might even say it's the black ice of the Christian life: you don't see it, you hit it, and it derails the train.  
  
I might go and lead with this, Jon, and then I want you to continue setting up the topic: I think that self-righteousness is the billboard sin of the church that we need to always have in the crosshairs. We've talked about before how it seems that in many church contexts today, or in evangelicalism today, nominalism is in the crosshairs. In my opinion, biblically, self-righteousness is in the crosshairs within the minds of the apostles because they are trying to blow up any notion of Jesus-plus theology. And we're gonna talk about the posture of Christ here in a minute, in terms of his mission on earth and who he often was seeking to unsettle.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the goals that we have here at Theocast is to always be taking the Bible—Scripture—and the themes of the Bible and make them, I would say, more practical in our everyday conversations.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or at least relatable.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So as I preach and as Justin preaches, we often get together on Wednesday morning and we talk about what we preached about this last week, and the excitement about the text, and what we learned, and some of the nuances of the texts—and that definitely is what happened today—but we have been trying to explain throughout our time on Theocast the nuance of what Christ and, we think, the New Testament, and I'll just say all of Scripture points out glaringly. (1) self-righteousness exists in everyone; (2) is danger; (3) the effects of what it causes upon us.  
  
I'm currently in John 19, and so I'll just use this as an example, kind of a springboard. In John 19,. Jesus has officially declared it is finished. In verse 31, John at multiple times will, I think—through the power of the Spirit and God's wisdom—point out the irony of the self-righteous Pharisees and the Jews of how they are going to crucify an innocent man and yet be sure not to defile themselves. A couple of examples of this is Jesus says it is finished, and as soon as it's done—It says that in verse 31—the Jews go to Pilate and ask him to take the men off of the cross. According to Deuteronomy, anytime a criminal was put or hung on a tree, they were not to be left there after sundown because it would defile the land. So they didn't want to go into the Passover defiling the land. It also says in John 18 that they didn't want to go into Pilate's courthouse because they too would defile themselves by going in there so that they would not be able to partake in Passover.  
  
John mentioned this. They're taking a man whom Pilate says is not guilty and yet they crucify him anyways. They want to make sure that they don't go into his courthouse. They want to make sure that they take them down off the cross so they are righteous enough to receive Passover. And yet they miss the irony that they killed the actual embodiment of righteousness. So the self-righteousness of the Pharisees ends up murdering the actual righteousness of those who were standing before him. And I love how scripture points out, how (1) I think blinding, and (2) dangerous self-righteous can be.  
  
Another example of this is the apostle Paul himself even explains how he, himself, as a Pharisee was blinded by his own self-righteousness and even was persecuting and killing Christians. And he himself could not see it until, of course, the Holy Spirit had to come and confront him on the road to Damascus. These are just two examples. You have the log in your eye, splinter—there are so many examples. James is another example of this. That's what we're going to be talking about today.  
  
Justin Perdue: A little more Bible backfill. I think the illustration of the apostle Paul is really good where he was convinced at one point in his life that his zeal for God was being expressed in an appropriate way by persecuting the church. And so he would have seen that as a good thing—and even a meritorious thing—that he was so zealous for God that he was persecuting these blasphemers known as Christians.  
  
Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount—Matthew 7:1 and following—is where he says, "Don't judge others, lest you be judged yourselves." and the point of that passage is that you will be held. He goes on to say in verse two that the standard that you use to judge others is the same standard that will be used against you. He's pointing out the blindness of people: you have this log in your eye and you presume then to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye. What's the point of all that? The point of all that is you have this standard that you use to judge other people with and you yourself have not even met that standard, and thereby condemn yourself. This is the language of Paul in Romans 2; he says the exact same thing. You can't even meet your own standard, and then he takes it further, and it was basically let alone God's standard. So when you have your own standard that you can't meet that you judge others with, how much more so have you not met God's standard? And it's the doers of the law who will be righteous and justified, not those who just hear it only.  
  
I think what I'm struck by, in terms of the blindness piece, is like you were illustrating with the Jews around the time of Passover and the crucifixion of Christ. They are so consumed with adhering to the letter of the law as they understood it that they completely miss the point of the law wholesale. And they are so blinded by their zeal to abide by even this hedge that they have placed around the law—to do the right things and to avoid doing the wrong things—that they have missed the entire message of God from the beginning, which was a plan of redemption, the plan to redeem God's people through the Messiah in terms of how He would do that.  
  
It's wild how we are blinded by misplaced zeal to keep commandments or to avoid doing things that are against the commandments and miss the point of the entire thing. Your confidence is completely misplaced because what you're doing is, in some way, shape, or form, in varying degrees, admittedly, but still to some extent you are placing confidence in what you are doing and you think that it's appropriate to do that—and it leads to all kinds of problems. You become incredibly dangerous to other Christians and you will ultimately ruin yourself, which we'll get to later.  
  
Let's talk a little bit about just the danger of self-righteousness maybe and how it ends up being a situation where we cut other people to pieces—and there's blindness in doing that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. We weaponize it is what we do. There's a great book by a professor by the name of Dru Johnson, and it's called _Human Rites: The Power of Rituals, Habits, and Sacraments_. It's an interesting book because it does deal with the psychology of humanity, of how we have certain habits and rituals that we create and we don't even realize how we are programmed to do things. For instance, there was a study done that when you step into an elevator and to close the elevator door, most of the time, those buttons are a placebo. They actually aren't even connected. People keep hitting it until it actually closes. We have a lot of habits and rituals we do this with.  
  
From the beginning, I'm going to say, I believe in religion, habits, and rituals—the Scripture, true religion, points us to Christ. Christians are called to create good habits. We have rituals that we participate in every Sunday.  
  
Justin Perdue: Two things on that. One, we believe in corporate worship. We're instructed to do it in Scripture, but in terms of a discipline of our religion, for example, is to show up to church on Sunday and worship with the saints. But what is corporate worship about if it's done rightly? It's about Christ—and we're being pointed to him. The sacraments, like you said, you want to talk about rituals. The Lord has sanctified two of them and has connected them to Himself, but again, those rightly understood and administered are about what? They're about Christ, and they're about our union with Christ. I think that's an important distinction to make. We are not against ritual. We are not against habits. We are not against religion. We're actually in favor of all of them. And true religion is about Jesus Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. You can look at the apostle Paul or the Pharisees throughout all of the accounts of Christ, but specifically in John 19, since this is where I was, they were considering themselves to be right in the eyes of God, even upholding justice for God because how dare this man claim to be God? So they're going to crucify him for that. They missed the sign for the substance so they embraced the sign, which is the ritual of cleanliness for the sake of Passover. They missed that for the actual sign. The Lamb.  
  
Justin Perdue: They're wigging out about the sign itself and the 17 different ways that it needs to be observed that they miss what the sign was about in the first place, who was standing quite literally right in front of them.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And they would make accusations to Christ that he's a drunkard, he's a sinner, he hangs out with sinners, he spends time with them.  
  
Justin Perdue: "If he were a prophet, he wouldn't have anything to do with this woman because he would know that she's a prostitute."  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. So they look at their own obedience to their rituals, which some of them were right, a lot of them were added upon. Christ was being accused of breaking the law for healing on the Sabbath, which is not something that was instituted by God, by his Father.  
  
The point of all of this is that these are examples. As you move into the New Testament, you can see where this attitude is not just of those of the Pharisees before Christ on the cross, but it ends up transitioning even into 1 Corinthians. There's a whole chapter on love where we are projecting how righteous we are and yet we aren't doing things out of love. And Paul says if anything is not done out of love, it's of no use, and these were projecting the righteousness of those who look, look how spiritual and because of whatever gifts that they have. And I would even dare say James is a great example of this, where they were creating a caste system of righteousness: those who had wealth were considered more righteous and are shown favoritism, versus those who were over lower status. When I mean weaponizing is that we end up using our own capacities to do habits and rituals to say, "Because I do these, God is more favorable of me." Or, "I am clearly more righteous, and so I am going to look down upon, or even use my own words to cut those who aren't living up to the same level which I am capable of doing."  
  
Justin Perdue: Totally. And the absurdity of that self-righteous posture, where you bludgeon other people with your own righteousness effectively because you are convinced that you have the high ground. You're looking down on other people who are not as disciplined or not as holy as you perceive yourself to be. And then yeah, your posture toward them is a number of things: maybe condescending, exacting, threatening. It's certainly not gentle. It's certainly not humble. It's certainly not gracious. But the absurdity of all that is that you, in trusting to some degree in your own righteousness, you are exactly the kind of person that Christ would have set himself over and against during his ministry on earth.  
  
Now don't misunderstand me. All of us are self-righteous in ways that we don't see and Christ died for our self-righteousness. He saves us from our own foolishness and trusting ourselves more than we should. None of us ever completely are devoid of any sense of self-righteousness so don't misunderstand what I'm saying.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Can I give an illustration for that, Justin? The moment you see some kind of heinous crime on the news and you're appalled by it; not by the crime, but almost a comparison of, "I can't believe..." That is self-righteousness at that moment. You have to understand when Paul says, "If it's not by God's grace, I am that person." When you see real grace and mercy, and you understand your standing before God as only merciful and full of grace, that's where you can see the heart of it.  
  
Justin and I are highly appalled by sin. There's a difference being appalled by the sin and casting judgment upon the sinner.  
  
Justin Perdue: Just to finish my thought. This is the stupidity of self-righteousness: we tend to trust in what we're doing or not doing, and we tend to be like the Pharisee in Luke 18, who is trusting even in his own God-wrought righteousness. He acknowledges that God has done it. "Thank you that I'm not like other men." So we can't just say, "Oh, well, you know, it's God's grace in my life." As though that just solves the problem. The issue is you do not trust in yourself in any way. Even if it's the work of the Holy Spirit in you—that sounds scandalous to say—even if God has made you more righteous in terms of your life than you once were, that is not what you trust in as the ground of your standing before the Lord. You trust in Christ only. That's the point of Luke 18; the one who is trusting in his own God-wrought righteousness is not justified, but the one who knows that he's a sinner and is desperate for the mercy of God is justified. And so the stupidity and the craziness of self-righteousness is that whenever we prop ourselves up and trust in things that we're doing, and trust in our own righteousness, we are acting like the people that Jesus set himself against in his earthly ministry. Because what did Jesus do over and over and over again?  
  
You already mentioned that the Jews crucified Jesus because he was a blasphemer. I think one of the other reasons, it becomes very clear in the gospels, that they want to kill him is that they hate him because he constantly explodes their own notions of their righteousness—and he makes it very clear because they're trusting in these things. This is what they understand righteous living to be, and Christ constantly sets the grenade on the table and pulls the pin. And it's like, "We got to get rid of this guy because he can't keep saying these things." You gave the illustration of the Sabbath where they would constantly try to trap him; he heals a man on the Sabbath and it's breaking the law because of the hedge they had put around the Sabbath day. He looks at them and he basically says, "Which one of you, if you even had an animal that was caught in a trap, wouldn't go get it?" Of course this is permissible. How insane is this in many different ways?  
  
Last thing I'll say about this: it's very clear when you read the gospels and you observe the posture of Christ with different groups of people that whenever he is dealing with people who are aware of their sin and know that they're not righteous, he is gentle, tender, and compassionate, and he forgives their sins. Whenever he deals with people who are trusting in themselves that they're righteous, or think they can achieve righteousness, he crushes them with the law. And he sets himself against that kind of thinking. And so the craziness of self-righteousness is that it is the exact opposite of what Christ came to exhort us to. He came to exhort us to come to the end of yourself. You don't have what it takes and you need him. This was the message that he periled it over and over again, and what he demonstrates in his posture over and over again.  
  
Jon Moffitt: A good friend of mine, pastor, and planter Patrick Crandall—he's going to be planting a church here in about a month. We were talking about this at lunch and he said to me, "We would rather have the credit than the gift." That's what self-righteousness produces. We want the credit before the eyes of man than we do the gift before our Father. That's how insane it is. We want to prove we are worthy of it. Think of it this way: when the prodigal came home, what did the Father not let him do? He would not let him have any credit at all.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. Because the prodigal son is convinced that he's going to come back as a slave.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. Here's how the conversation goes in my mind: he comes up and he embraces him, and the son starts talking. The father goes, "Hold one minute. Hey, get the fatted calf!" Then he turns back to the son and says, "Okay. What was that, son?" And he just starts talking again, "Father, I didn't know...." And the father interrupts again and says, "Hold on one second. And the robe!" "Okay, well, dad, I wanted to be a..." "And the ring!"  
  
Justin Perdue: Same way, brother. I agree. In the text you can feel it too. The prodigal son already got the pitch prepared, and he's probably rehearsing it over and over again as he's making his way home. And then what does he do? He sees his dad, his dad runs to him, and the first thing the son says is, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son." And before he can even get to the whole business about serving his father as a slave... "I'm going to somehow make it up to you, dad. You don't even have to treat me as a son anymore." The father, like you're saying, interrupts him: "Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put rings on his hands and shoes on his feet. Kill the fattened calf. Let's have a party because my son is found. We think in terms of merit.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Here's what's hard: in his conscience, it'd be easier for the son if the father would have allowed him to work it off. It's harder for the sinner to accept full forgiveness, and that's what's so hard about that story. We want to show God we mean business and God goes, "No, there's nothing left. There is no such thing as penance. You do not pay me back. You do not earn it. You do not establish it. Forgiveness is a gift and it always is a gift." And that's really hard for a self-righteous person to accept.  
  
Justin Perdue: The fact that absolution—being absolved of our guilt and being forgiven of our sins—is something that makes people very uncomfortable. When we start heralding on the basis of Scripture, when we start heralding that you're forgiven and you are absolved, people immediately rise up. And I'm talking about people who love God. People rise up and immediately get very concerned. " Brother, you might need to qualify that because you're being a little reckless with, you know, forgiveness and absolution here." Biblically, no, because in Christ Jesus, we are forgiven and we are absolved and it's done. And like you said, it's a gift. There's nothing that we can contribute to that equation.  
  
Lest you think that we're overstating it, I think my last line of defense in this whole conversation about self-righteousness and putting no confidence in the flesh is Philippians 3, where the apostle Paul is over-the-top clear... Paul really does come in from the top turnbuckle—and I mean elbow drop—on any notion of our own merit and righteousness in Philippians 3:1-11, where he talks about how we are the circumcision who put no confidence in the flesh, Philippians 3:3, and then goes on to unpack what he means. And he talks about how if there was anybody who has reason to put confidence in the flesh, he has more reasons to be confident—and he lists seven things about his former life to illustrate the fact that he was a rockstar. Even amongst people like the Pharisees, who were really good at doing the right stuff, he was elite and was crushing it in terms of a life of holiness. And then what's scandalous about Philippians 3 is how Paul then goes on to say that all of the things that he had, he counts them as loss. And then he's going to go on to say, "But anything that I had that was gained, I counted as loss. And anything that I had, I consider it rubbish." He's not there renouncing the bad things about himself. He's not renouncing his possessions either like some kind of easier, good life. It's very clear that he is renouncing his virtue and he's renouncing his own righteousness—and he says that. "I do not want it to have a righteousness of my own, but what I want and need is the righteousness of Christ that is received by faith." It's an incredible text.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And this really transitions to the second part. I think there are two types of self-righteousness. There are those who weaponize it: they become so confident in their ability to perform certain actions or not to perform certain sins that they can quickly stand up on the stage and point their finger out at everyone and basically judge them. Then there's the quiet self-righteous person who I think is a lot more introspective. They're more concerned about themselves than they are other people. They're too afraid to look out to others. They are those who have a super tender conscience where they're always examining the house that they have built, that they live in, and they're wondering if the waves are going to crash it down—to even use Jesus' illustration where they built it on sand. And Paul looks back at the house he built that was murdered by the sand. He looks at it and he goes, "This entire structure, which is better than anybody's structure that's ever been built in the history of man, is smashed. It is of no value."  
  
You have to understand when Justin and I are talking about this, we are talking about it in relation to your standing before God as His child, either as justified or condemned as unrighteous or righteous. This is what we're talking about. We cannot collapse sanctification, the process by which God is changing us, and our justification, that which we are declared right in the eyes of God. People often hear what we're saying and they're saying we are deemphasizing the necessity for obedience in the Christian's life—and we are saying, yes, if it's in relation to your standing before God, which is what Paul is talking about. I would even say in John 19, Jesus is always dealing with people saying, "Come to me, not to the law. Come to me, not your own works." And we refuse to do that as it relates to our right standing before the Father.  
  
Justin Perdue: Two comments: first is self-righteousness is foolish and it is dangerous because it will destroy you in terms of your standing before the Lord, because you cannot stand on your own merit to any degree. I had a conversation with somebody about this recently: you're never going to have perfect faith, you're never going to have a moment where there's just not even a hint of self-righteousness in your mind, but the question for all of us to answer is, "Am I trusting in Christ or something else?" At the heart of it, at the root of the matter, just answer that question. Am I banking on Jesus or my own record? And for the saints, it's very clear in our lives that we're banking on Christ and he's got us and he's provided righteousness for us. So self-righteousness is dangerous for you because it will destroy you and it's a sinking sand foundation, but then it's also dangerous because you tend to bludgeon other people to death. If you are confident in your own righteousness, you then are very exacting, condescending, and threatening oftentimes toward your brothers and sisters in the faith, and you end up harming them rather than pulling them up and doing them good. So that's one thought.  
  
The other thought is related to what you just said about the whole accusations that are sometimes thrown at us about how we are, in one sense, deemphasizing the importance of pursuing righteousness and even putting in effort in the Christian life—to which I would say is absurd. We are not saying that we don't try in the Christian life; what we are telling people to do is to stop trying to save yourself, stop trying to do stuff so that you'll be justified, stop trying to do stuff so that you are going to prove yourself or keep yourself in good standing before the Lord. Don't try to do stuff like that. Trust Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That is Philippians 3.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. Trust Christ for that and trust Jesus only for that. And then knowing that Christ has you, and that he's your righteousness and your peace before God now and forever, try. By all means, we try to love each other, encourage each other, and even flee from sin and pursue obedience.  
  
Maybe this is setting up a little bit of something, Jon, that I know we want to talk about over in the Semper Reformanda podcast. We can talk there very pointedly to those who are part of Semper Reformanda about this: it's not good when you encounter these categories of pietism—this hyper-introspective focus on your affections and obedience and performance, and you start to learn that there's something else out there that is a confessional perspective that's objective and it's about Christ. One of the things that people can do in the early stages of that transition is you begin to overreact, you swing on the pendulum way too far to the other side, and any talk of obedience is now legalism. Don't do that. That's foolish and unhelpful. We'll talk about that more in a little bit.  
  
Jon Moffitt: For the last few minutes, Justin, one thing I think would be helpful in understanding these two categories: one, if we're not careful, self-righteousness turns into a weapon against others.  
  
Justin Perdue: Hurts other people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Self-righteousness can create a false sense of security because you feel safe until your life comes crumbling down, which it will. When you finally see the weight of the law and that law just murders your house, boom, it's done. And you realize that your entire system that you created, where you feel safe in, is no longer safe.  
  
According to both the Westminster and the London Baptist Confession on the Providence of God, 5.5...  
  
Justin Perdue: What a great paragraph.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He says that often God allows believers to fall under long periods of not only sin, but sustained sin, to further show them their need of dependence upon Him to humble them. And that's what happens to those who build houses of self-righteousness. You will see God collapse those because it is not helpful or beneficial for you to be trusting in your own righteousness.  
  
For the last few minutes, this is a question that I think you and I have received and have been receiving for years: is God displeased with our disobedience?  
  
Justin Perdue: Can I please jump in very quickly on the thing that you just said? I want to encourage those out there who battle a self-righteous posture and you're even semi-aware of it. Take heart in what Jon was just referencing. For us, for our confession, it's the 1689 London Baptist Confession, chapter five, paragraph five: because you're His, and because He loves you, God's going to crush yourself righteousness one way or the other—and often that's painful. Because that is a piece of our sanctification and growth, to have our self-righteousness taken from us so that we will trust all the more in Christ only, and we will be humbled, and we will see our need of God. God only does that because He loves us and because we're His; it's not because He's angry and it's not because we're not His. Don't wig about that and trust the Lord. He's going to do His good work in your life, including taking your self-righteousness and rending that from your hands, which needs to happen.  
  
Your question: is God displeased with us?  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're probably only going to be able to answer for a couple of minutes, but I want to set it up. Just quickly we can answer it here, and we'll have to answer it in the next podcast fully.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm just going to go ahead and do something that's a little bit more of an indirect answer to your question that I hope will expose what we're trying to get at. To even ask that question, "Is God displeased with me when I don't...?" You're then assuming that there must have been, at least some point in your life, where God would look at your performance and based upon that alone would be pleased. And that's precarious.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What does God require? Biblically speaking, God requires perfection. We grade on a curve. You and I, we do this to each other: you and I have never treated each other perfectly, but we understand that our nature is sinful, and so we give each other grace.  
  
Justin Perdue: We grade on a curve or we introduce things into the text that isn't in the text. For example, we say, "Well, you need to be willing to do this." Excuse me. It's not what it says.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No. So to answer your question of whether God is ever displeased with you, then my answer would be if we're talking about your performance, then yes; every moment of every day, He is utterly displeased with you.  
  
But what does Paul say? We are clothed with the righteousness of Christ. So our sin is covered by his blood and our obedience is clothed with his righteousness. So, no, when the Father looks at me as His child, my performance does not cause our Father to lean one direction or the other. We just did a podcast on this on the impassibility of God.  
  
Justin Perdue: And also, we are united to Christ and we are quite literally hidden in him. When the Father looks upon us, He sees the merit and righteousness and holiness of His Son. And when it comes to our own performance, it never could be meritorious in God's sight. That's a crazy notion.  
  
The last thing I'll say about this is people may raise Ephesians 4 where we're told not to grieve the Holy Spirit. I know we've mentioned this a few times lately and we'll mention it again because we need to understand what that's about, and that is a passage that's about the unity of the church, and tearing other people to pieces with our words and thereby destroying the unity of the church that the Holy Spirit himself has given it. And so that needs to be understood in a corporate way, that the Holy Spirit is grieved when the church is divided rather than being unified around Christ. That's a corporate reality and that is serious. Basically, the takeaway from that is to be unified in the church around the Lord Jesus Christ and love each other.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And I will add to that, Justin. To your argument, if you read Ephesians 4:4 and following, one spirit, one body...  
  
Justin Perdue: One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. God always accepts your obedience on the merits of Christ. You've never loved God, and you've never loved your neighbor with all your heart. So let's just get that out of the way. No one is accepted by their own merits; it's always the merits of Christ. Now, we're going to get into this in Semper Reformanda, but I will say it here to get us started. Your good works absolutely matter—not to your standing before God, but they matter to the mission that God has given to the church and you as an individual. This is why 2 Peter 1 says if you aren't showing godliness, kindness, forbearance, and meekness, you're ineffective. It says you're ineffective, meaning that you're not using the gifts that have been given to you. He says, when you're not doing this, you forgot that you've been cleansed. Paul says it this way: "Walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you've been called."  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. He's already talked about our union with Christ and our identity that we have in him, and he also says put off the old man and put on the new man. That's the same exhortation. Remember who you are, remember what Christ has done, and live in a way commensurate with the gospel.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. So your obedience, as fallible as it may be, is still necessary—and God, in His graciousness and kindness, uses it to advance His kingdom.  
  
Justin Perdue: And He's the one who produces it in the first place.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. He who began a good work in you will complete it.  
  
Justin Perdue: Walk in the good works that God has already prepared beforehand for us to walk in.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is He who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.  
  
So these are all things that we're going to talk about in Semper Reformanda. This is brand new. We just launched it. Justin is exploding. We're excited. So just for those of you that are new to the podcast, we started a brand new podcast called Semper Reformanda. For those of you that don't know what that means, it's Latin for "always reforming". We're excited about taking the Reformation forward throughout the world. We have members and listeners that are all over. We have several hundred people who have joined us, and we are now doing a special podcast for them to which they can also then gather in local communities and align to discuss this and further learn and be encouraged by these truths.  
  
If you want to learn more about that, if you want to hear the podcast, and you want to join a local online group, you can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com to learn more about that. We will see you all next week.

---

### Experiencing God

*Published: May 5, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/experiencing-god*
*Tags: Experiencing God*

A lot of times when we look at our lives, we question the grace of God. Maybe that's because of how we're doing, spiritually. Or it could be because our circumstances are hard. We wrestle with whether God really is graciously inclined toward us. What is the antidote to this? It is to look to Christ. He is the evidence of God's grace toward us.

Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about the goodness and the sweetness of confessional theology--as well as the confusion and harm that exists outside of it.

Resources:  
1689 LBC (especially 2.1, 5.5)

Scripture:  
Ephesians 1:3-14, 2:4-7  
Romans 5:1-11  
Hebrews 10:1-14, 12:1-2  
Genesis 1-3

Giveaway: ["Christianity and Liberalism"](https://amzn.to/3h0q3q3) by J. Gresham Machen

SUPPORT Theocast: [https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/ ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/)

FACEBOOK: Theocast: [https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org ](https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org)

TWITTER: Theocast: [https://twitter.com/theocast\_org ](https://twitter.com/theocast%5Forg)

INSTAGRAM: Theocast: https://www.instagram.com/theocast\_org/

https://youtu.be/3tiAZ1M8w-c

**Podcast Transcript**

Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we are going to talk about one of the ways that we tend to struggle as Christians. We look around at our lives, whether that's how we're doing spiritually, where we look around at our lives circumstantially, and we question whether or not God really is graciously inclined toward us because at times, we just do not see a lot of evidence of the grace of God. And the antidote to what ails us is to actually not look at our lives as the evidence of God's grace for us, but to look at Christ's life as the evidence of God's graciousness toward us as His people.

So that's the conversation that we're going to be having today. We're going to look at the confessions and we're going to consider the Scriptures as we think about how God loves us, and how He feels about us as His people. Stay tuned.

In looking around at people in my own church, and thinking about my own life—and Jon, I know you agree because we were talking before we recorded this—I think a lot of people, and by that, I mean a lot of Christians, really wrestle with God's posture toward them. Particularly, I think people really questioned at times whether God is really graciously inclined toward them. What I mean is people look at their own lives and the transformation of their life, or sometimes a lack thereof, and question whether God has been gracious to them and is continuing to give them grace. And people look at their own circumstances, and their lives are hard, and they question again whether God is really gracious toward them. They understand that His mercies are new every morning, they realize that He has given them life, He has provided for their needs, and He doesn't have to do that. But when it comes to how they relate to Him, is He really graciously inclined towards them?

I don't want to bury the lead here. I think one of the reasons that we struggle so much with that question, and we're haunted so much by it, is because we have our gaze fixed in the wrong place when we try to look for God's grace in our lives. We're going to unpack this statement, but I would stake my ministry on this: that the evidence—the definite article—of God's grace toward us is not our lives, but it's Christ's life. And by that, I mean, it's not our lives in terms of the transformation of them.

Now, we agree with the confessions and the presentation of Scripture that we can be encouraged as we look to the transformation of our life and the fruit of our salvation; we can have our assurance bolstered by those things, and thank God for the times when that occurs in our lives. At the same time, that encouragement that we receive from looking at the transformation of our life is going to ebb and flow. Alongside that, if we look to the circumstances of our lives to see the grace of God, sometimes it's going to be obvious to us. "Man, God was so gracious to me in this situation, or in this way, or in giving me this. He's been gracious to me." But there are going to be times—let's just be real—when we're going to look around and we're gonna think, "Man, my life is just hard and it's a disappointment to me. And I don't like this. And I really hate that. I feel like I'm just ground down to powder right now. I really don't know that God is being all that gracious to me. God, where is your grace in my circumstances?" We don't see it so then we question and we struggle and we doubt and we wrestle.

Ultimately, what we want to do is fix our gaze back on the place that we can always see in an unchanging way the grace of God toward us, which is namely the life of Christ, his obedience for us, and then also his death for us as the evidence of God's grace toward us in our worst moment. On our worst day, we can look to Christ and know, yes, God is gracious toward me.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. Because we're emotional beings, our experience of the Christian life—for most Christians that I've met—is not consistent. It's not a flat line and it's also not a vertical line. It's not gradually slanted upward. If I were going to be as open as I can be on this podcast, my experience yesterday was I was underneath so much pressure and even discouragement. I ended up getting a migraine from it because of the pressure and the experience in my body, and stress in my own sin and the sins of those around me. As crazy as this sounds, I started even doubting the effectiveness of my church in the ministry and Theocast.

Because there's so much that's intertwined into a human being, and there's so much that's related to it—your fatigue, your diet, what your knowledge is, what your experiences are. Justin and I both know a lot of theology, and even at times, our emotional drain can overpower our knowledge of what we know to be true of God. We know this to be true of God, but the emotional experiences we're having at the moment can be so much more powerful than the actual knowledge we have in our hearts and minds.

Justin Perdue: Totally.

Jon Moffitt: So when we're thinking about God and the nature of God, and we separate the experience where we're feeling—my circumstances, my emotions, the spiritual nature, spiritual high or spiritual low... I've met people who are walking on water one day and who are drowning in the next. The up and down—both of us have experienced that. I will tell you when we get finished with a podcast on Wednesdays, often I feel like I'm walking on water because I've heard my brother exalt me into Christ. But when I am alone in the darkness of my sin in the closet, I feel like I'm drowning at the moment.

First of all, Justin and I want to acknowledge that it's real. Those of you who feel the emotional highs and lows, it's almost overwhelming at times. It's hard to get out of it because we don't understand two things: the nature of God and, believe it or not, systematic theology. Revivalism really introduced the downplay of the importance of theology and doctrine, and we would even say historical theology. There has been theological debates throughout the years, and even in the Reformed world, as it relates to the nature of God. For instance, does God have emotional experiences or feelings towards us? So your understanding of the nature of God in systematic theology—meaning that when we look at all of the Scripture, how does the Bible describe to us the very nature of God—can and will influence your experience of God.

There was a book you had referenced, Justin, written years ago by Henry Blackaby called _Experiencing God_. I remember reading it years ago when I was a youth pastor. We read it as a church when I was at a Baptist church in Utah. I remember reading some of that and thinking to myself that at times, God feels more fickle than we humans do. How do I know when he's angry with me? How do I know when he loves me? How can I know that for sure based upon the mood swings that I have? Does God have mood swings? One day, is He mad at me and the next day, is He happy with me? How do I know this to be true?

Justin Perdue: Let me read from the 1689 London Baptist Confession. This is chapter two on God and the Holy Trinity, the first part of paragraph one. And just remember, for the listener out there who may not be as familiar with the confessions and even confessional theology, all the confessions are is an exercise in systematic theology where the framers of the confessions are taking everything that the Bible says about a particular topic and trying to write that down in a succinct way, and in a way that's clear.

So this is chapter two, paragraph one of the 1689 London Baptist Confession—and the Westminster confession would read almost identical to this: "The Lord our God is one, the only living and true God. He is self-existent and infinite in being and perfection. His essence cannot be understood by anyone but him. He is a perfectly pure spirit. He is invisible and has no body, parts, or changeable emotions." that piece, in particular, is what we're highlighting today. The fact that God's emotions- He is an emotional being, He has emotions, but His emotions and passions... Let me just make a distinction with those things: God is emotional, and He has emotions and feelings about stuff, but He is not ruled by passions like we are. He is not controlled by His emotions in ways that we are, and His emotions do not just vacillate all over the place like ours do.

I think one of the things that is a real hang-up for us in this whole conversation that we're having, in how we think about God and how He then feels about us, is when we really question God's posture toward us. Is He gracious? Does He love me? Is He merciful? Is He really benevolent and kind toward me? Or does that change? What we do a lot of times—let me use a big word to explain it—is we anthropomorphize God. What that word means is we talk about God and speak about God in human terms, to the extent that we think He is altogether like us, which the Lord says about Himself in the Psalms that He is not. Like you thought He was altogether like you. Numbers 23: God is not like a man that He would change His mind.

We tend to think that God is like us in how He operates emotionally. While God is emotional, His emotions do not function like ours; they don't vacillate and ebb and flow by the moment and by the hour. His emotional nature toward us, in the way that He feels toward us and His posture toward us, is unchanging; in particular, it's unchanging in His eternal purposes that He has for us in His Son.

Jon Moffitt: That's really good. Now I know there are people who are saying, "Well, it says that God changed His mind and He repented." We're not going to get into that other than to say this is why systematic theology and historical theology is so important. Because when we look at all of what Scripture has to say, you can't look at one verse and isolate it; that's called biblicism. You isolate a passage and just translate or interpret it not in light of the context, but also to all of Scripture. We have to look at how God describes His nature, how He does not change and that His nature does not change, and then read those passages in light of that verse. What we walk away with is that God is working in time, and He is working with humans in time, and to explain what He's accomplishing and why it's being accomplished.

These words that Moses wrote down, in particular when it talks about God repenting or changing His mind about Israel, you have to understand the nature of that story in light of all of Scripture.

This is why this is important: you don't want the emotional God that can swing based upon circumstance. Our emotions are all influenced by circumstance.

Justin Perdue: Completely are.

Jon Moffitt: Right. So when things are going well naturally, our emotions are high. When things are going bad, our emotions are low. That is natural due to human nature. That's how we function. Now, there are people who have chemical imbalances and there can be the exception where someone's flat-lined or always happy or always angry. Of course, there's always the exception. The point of it is to understand that the nature of God doesn't function like the nature of man.

Let me read to you Bavinck from his _Reformed Dogmatics_. He says, "Those who predicate any change whatsoever of God, whether with respect to His essence, knowledge, or will, diminish all His attributes. Then later on, we talk about his independence, simplicity, omniscience, omnipotence—any of that, it says, "This robs God of His divine nature and religion of its foundation and assured comfort." So the problem, when it comes to us thinking that God vacillates back and forth between whether He's happy with us or whether He's angry with us... Let me put it in a more practical sense: God's mercy can be more or less given to us based upon how He's feeling at the moment. What the Bible tells us is that God's feelings do not vacillate. They do not go up and down. Therefore, His mercy is constant. The way that the Psalmist describes it is its new every morning, which means it cannot be depleted, it cannot be changed, and it is ever sufficient. So God's affection and feelings, if you want to say He has feelings, but God's relationship to you cannot change because His nature cannot change. So if He has covenanted, if He has promised endless mercy that covers all sin, no matter what you do or you don't do—and I know that sounds scary to say because people will live however they want—listen, true regenerate sinners who have the Spirit living within them hate their sin. They don't want their sin. So I can say with full confidence that all the sin that remains, that you still struggle with—and what I mean by remain is that our nature still fights against the flesh, Galatians 5:17—God's mercy does not change because His nature does not change. Therefore His promises are sure because they are not based upon our actions, but they are based upon Christ's actions, which are complete, stamped in history, and recorded in the Bible for us.

Justin Perdue: And Christ for us never changes because he is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

The witness of the Scriptures from beginning to end is that God is purposeful and that He always accomplishes every single purpose that He has. He's very clear about His purposes for those of us whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world, those of us whom He has predestined for adoption as His children through Christ. He is always for us, and is working for our salvation and has accomplished it.

I'm going to read a little bit from Ephesians 2 that I think highlights what we're talking about really well in terms of the nature of God and what He's like, and what that means for us. So this is Ephesians 2:4 and following. So many will know that Ephesians 2:1-3 is where Paul describes our situation before, like what we were naturally, that we were dead in our trespasses and sins, that we were following the course of the world, that we were enslaved to Satan, and that we were enslaved to our desires and passions, and were by nature children of wrath. But then these words: "But God, being rich in mercy..." That phrase is huge. God is rich in mercy. This is who our Lord is: He is a merciful God, gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us," so there we again have His love for us, "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." So in those verses, we've got mercy, we've got love, we've got grace, we've got kindness of God toward us.

What we have to say is God does not have to work Himself up and convince Himself to be merciful to us, or to love us, or to be kind, or to be gracious. This is who He is. He is the fountain that is just so full that He overflows with these things toward His own. I think what we have to realize is that the Lord saves us completely by His grace through the work of Christ, not our works, and we are unworthy. We are unworthy of salvation and of being with the Lord forever in a redeemed heaven and a redeemed earth. But it is not as though God will hold that over our heads for all of eternity, because that's not how He is. He will delight to show us kindness and He will delight to show us grace forever in Christ.

It's a mind blowing thought, Jon, that we will struggle—as long as we're breathing—to obey and to honor God with our lives, even though we want to, because we're weak. We will often be way more mindful of our failures than we will anything that we've done that is faithful. Our salvation, as we know, is all of Christ and none of us, and then God will look to us at the end of history and He will say, "Well done. Enter into my joy forever." And if that doesn't describe to us His nature... how gracious, how merciful, how kind, how patient, how rich and deep is His love—and this is how He is toward us always.

Jon Moffitt: Romans 5:8, I think, is important for us to understand. It says, "But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." So the initial action towards us is not a reaction to us. In Ephesians, when we were dead in our trespasses and sins, He made the action towards us. He made us alive.

Let's put this back towards the impassibility of God. God's emotions do not change. God's nature does not change. God did not look at us, as some would say, look down the quarter of time or saw in due time that we would choose Him, but the exact opposite. Paul makes it clear both in Ephesians and in Romans that God's actions towards us are proactive; they're not reactive, meaning they are according to His nature. So according to the nature of God, we as sinners, He chose to give us mercy, He chose to love us. We often fall in love with our spouses or with friends because of the reciprocated acts that we received from each other. I am receiving something from you and therefore I'm giving it back. I'm attracted to this relationship in some way. There are very few relationships that are unconditional; parents contend to have love for their children unconditionally because of the natural bond that's there. But outside of that, there is no such thing as an unconditional relationship. But God is the one who says there was no condition that drew Him to us other than He chose to. That is important to think about because if God set His love upon you, proved His love, as Christ said, by Jesus laying down his life for his sheep, the ones to whom the Father chose to love, the ones whom the Father chose to redeem, if God has chosen to put His affection upon you, your obedience or lack thereof will not vacillate. God's affection, nor his mercy, nor his blessings towards you...

It's really hard for us to hear, but the reason why Justin and I have to do this podcast is that when we do not have this foundation, then when your emotions, your body, and your flesh start yelling at you that God is not happy with you, these truths need to be the foundation. This is why often I encourage people to read the confessions, and read the Scripture that goes along with the confession, because it grounds us in the nature of who God is. This is why the confessions exist: they are there to remind us of what the nature of God is and what the nature of man is. And we're going to get into this a little bit more in our Semper Reformanda podcast.

Justin, when you said earlier, "I stake my ministry on this," we will say that the only reason I can stand on Sunday mornings with utter confidence, without fear, without trembling, knowing that what I am saying should be heard, is because God's Word has said He is a God that does not change, He is a God that sets affection on sinners. How do I know I'm one of those sinners that God has set His affection on? Well, it's very clear according to Scripture, that if you have faith in that God, and in that message of God's gospel, and you believe that, and you love God, then you can say, "God loves me."

We love God. Why?

Justin Perdue: Because He first loved us.

Jon Moffitt: Amen, brother.

Justin Perdue: Turning this back in a pastoral direction; we're a couple of pastors here around the microphone, and we want to speak in pastoral ways, even on this podcast. Even though unless you're a member of one of our respective churches, we're not formally your pastor. We hope to encourage you in Christ, in the love of God for you as you look around at your life and you assess things and how things are going. There are going to be plenty of times, by God's grace, where you look to your life and you see that your life is changing, and that you're not who you used to be, and you're not like you used to be, and there's been real growth and real maturation. In those times, friends, be encouraged. Praise the Lord. Thank Him for what He's done in you by the work of His Spirit.

And then there are going to be times when you're going to look at your life and how it's going, and you are not going to see a bunch of anything that would encourage you, because you're going to be very aware of your battle against sin, and the ways that you've given in, and the things that you're fighting against—and you seem to be losing often. There are going to be times where you're going to look at your circumstances and you're going to be thankful and full of gratitude and joy. You're going to be really aware of God's kindness to you. "Lord, I don't deserve this and yet You've given me this really good thing." Or, "I really didn't think this was going to turn out and it turned out super well. I never would have planned this for myself, and God, You've ordained these circumstances and it's been so clearly good for me. Thank you." In those moments, friends, thank the Lord and praise Him for His obvious grace in your life. But then there are going to be times where you're going to look at your circumstances and you are thinking, "I'm living here between rage and tears. I want to tear my house apart because I'm so frustrated. I just want to bawl my eyes out because everything is falling apart around me and my life is hard. I just don't see any hope anywhere." You're gonna have days like that. So my encouragement to you in those really hard times, when you don't see a lot of fruit in your life, and you're not encouraged by how things are going in your walk with Christ, or when you look around at your circumstances and you really see nothing good, remember this: at the end of the day, your life and your circumstances are not the primary evidence of God's grace to you; it is Christ and Christ's life for you that is the evidence of God's grace to you. Quite literally, Christ is the grace of God for us. God loves us so much in this way: God loved the world that He sent His only Son to live and to die, so that anyone who believes in him would not perish but have eternal life. And we are so secure in what God has done for us, and in the love of God for us, that Christ would literally have to be ripped out of heaven and put back in the grave for us to not be secure, for us to not be loved, for God's grace to not be all over us. Obviously, that's impossible because Christ reigns. He's enough—he's enough for forgiveness, absolution, sanctification, righteousness, and redemption. We look to Christ and we see visibly the grace of God toward us, even when our lives are falling apart.

Jon Moffitt: Just to add some passages that we can think about that grounds us in that: 2 Peter—we've mentioned this over and over again, but if you, looking at the evidence of your life, and you aren't seeing the fruit of the Spirit, and you're beginning to wonder, "What's wrong with me? Maybe I'm not a Christian." Peter says, if these are not true of you and increasing, you have forgotten that you have been cleansed from your former sins. What is he pointing you to? Objective realities. He points you to something that is outside of yourself. You didn't cleanse yourself, you didn't save yourself, you didn't die on the cross, and you didn't even put Jesus blood on you; God put Jesus blood on you. God gifted you with regeneration. God baptized you. You look to your baptism; you look to the reality that as you went under the water and were cleansed. So did Christ blood cover you.

I would also point you to 1 Corinthians when Paul is dealing with people who are trapped in their sins and disobedient, he says, "I don't want to make nothing known among you except for Christ and him crucified. I want to recenter you because you have forgotten where you have come from." Or even Hebrews 12, where it says, "Looking unto Jesus," what are we doing? Setting aside in the weight and the sin that easily besets us. And how are we doing that? Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher, the one who starts it and the one who ends it.

This is why a gospel, Christocentric theology, especially a church that emphasizes it, is so important. Yes, we should be obeying and pursuing holiness, but when that vacillates, God's affection, God's security, God's promises do not waiver because we can look at these types of passages and say that according to His nature, He has made His decision. His decision is final. It's so final that the Son sat down and said it is finished. There's nothing left to do. "I have completed the work, now trust that I will finish what I have begun. And while you wait, there is work for you to do." This is what the Christian life should feel like.

And Justin, this is why you and I say that taking communion, confessing our sins, and hearing the gospel every week is mandatory. Otherwise, Christians will become anemic and they will become emotional wrecks.

Justin Perdue: Totally. We need to be reminded all the time of several things that you just mentioned. The book of Hebrews, chapter 10, you referenced how Christ, after making a once and for all sacrifice, he sat down at the right hand of God. Two verses after that statement, the writer of Hebrews says, "Having perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." We need to be reminded of that reality, and we need to be reminded of that reality every week; there is more grace in Christ than there is sin in us. If we're not reminded of those realities, we're going to be despairing regularly and we're going to be discouraged.

And we need to be reminded that one of the reasons that we still sin, in the providence of God, is that God is continuing to teach us through our struggle. He's not trying to cause us to doubt. He's not trying to cause us to question everything in terms of His grace and love and mercy to us, He's actually working to teach us how dependent we are and how much we need Him and how much we need Christ. The fact that I still sin keeps me from ever thinking that I could do this thing. Should I be encouraged by my sin? Of course not. But my sin ought to drive me all the more to Jesus, who is my righteousness, my forgiveness, and my absolution, and thereby I have love and gratitude cultivated in my heart toward God who has saved a wretch like me. But we've gotta be reminded of that every week because we don't think that way. We, as Christians, when we sin, it bothers us because we've been united to Christ. And so now we're actually grieved at the thought of offending him.

My natural response when I sin is to think I have blown it and Christ is disappointed—does God love me as much? Part of what happens on the Lord's Day is to be reminded that, like you said earlier, God's love and grace and mercy are proactive; it's not reactive. This is who God is for me; this is who Christ is for me, and I need to be reminded of those things that I will struggle and I will be weak and I'm going to blow it sometimes. Even there, Christ for me is God's grace, and the evidence of God's grace for me. But I'm not often going to draw those conclusions on my own. I need help from the saints, from my pastors, and I need to come to the Table and cast myself upon Christ.

Jon Moffitt: I want to make one other point and I'll give you a chance to comment on it. Justin and I are very passionate about theology, and we will say specifically here, when it comes to this conversation, we're passionate about covenant theology, and not just what we call biblical covenant but the actual system of covenant theology. Here is why. When you understand the flow of Scripture, a redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture, this very nature of God is seen. The whole theology of the redemptive nature of a redemptive-historical theology is grounded in the nature of God. We learned in Ephesians that the Trinity comes together and the Father makes a covenant with the Son, the _pactum_, and they make what's known as the _pactum salutis_. They make this promise as a covenant between the two of them, that they are going to save sinners according to their will, not according to our will, but according to His will.

Then you read the Bible in this way and you start in Genesis 3:15, where you have the fall of man and the initial promise of God. And there's two things that happen here—we talk about law-gospel and we mix them all the time—this is what happens in the Old Testament, too; you mix the law and the gospel. God gives a law from then to obey, and if you obey it, he promises blessings. But God's gospel is not connected to God's law. They are separate. God's gospel, the promise of a covenant that He made with the Son—the covenant of grace; this promise that He is going to save sinners—is never dependent upon the law. The promise is always dependent upon God's nature and His nature cannot change. It's not going to change.

Justin Perdue: In eternity past, the Godhead, but more pointedly, the Father and the Son make a covenant called the covenant of redemption where God's people will be saved on the basis of the works of the Son—in particular, his fulfillment of righteousness and then his suffering, and the shedding of his blood for our redemption and for the forgiveness of our sins. Immediately, if we want to see the nature of God, read the first three chapters of the Bible. Genesis is foundational in a number of ways, and one of the ways it's foundational is it shows us so much of how redemption is going to go. Because, yes, God does make a covenant with Adam and Eve, particularly with Adam in Genesis 2 where He tells him what he is to do and what he is not to do, and promises blessings and gives sanctions he breaks it. Well, it's broken—so no longer can man be right with God on the basis of his work. That's done. It's over once original sin happens.

But then immediately upon man's sin, what does God do? He promises a Redeemer. So clearly it's not based upon us. It's not based upon what we deserve or what we can achieve. It's based upon God's promise of grace and His promise in particular of the Redeemer, the Son who takes on flesh, namely Jesus, who will come and accomplish our salvation—and it is given to us through the covenant of grace. It's a remarkable thing.

Even in those first three chapters of the Bible, we see so much about the nature of God and the nature of our salvation thereby. And it's the nature of God that determines the nature of salvation. I trust that's clear, and maybe that's heady, but it makes sense in my mind that because God is this way, He's merciful, He's gracious, and He's a covenant maker and a covenant keeper, and he's uber faithful. This is how we're going to be saved—by His mercy, His grace, and His faithfulness, not our work, our merits, or our faithfulness.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. Let me just say one thing: we did an entire five-part series on this. You can go to YouTube or our website and you can get that for free. We'd encourage you to do that.

The reason I want to add this to what Justin just said is that the story of the Bible, specifically in the Old Testament is—you can get confused—God shows that by the law, you cannot please Him. And you can see His anger, you can see His wrath, and you can see His displeasure; He says this to Israel. But that is not the relationship we have to God as Father and as a covenant keeping God. God's affection towards us when it comes to our adoption is sealed. And that's why it's important to understand law-gospel distinction, understanding the covenant of works, and covenant of grace in this flow of redemption. If you want to know more about that, go to our website. Check it out.

Justin, tell us about what we did or what we're about to do next.

Justin Perdue: We are excited to be able to record another podcast because why record one when you can record two? Amen? We are about to record our Semper Reformanda podcast, which is for people who have partnered with Theocast and partner with our ministry to see this message of the sufficiency of Christ and the rest that is ours in him spread as far and wide as possible. We're about to go have that conversation with our friends, with our team, with our family who have joined the Reformation along with us. If you are wondering what Semper Reformanda is, or if you want more information about how you can partner with Theocast, you can find all of that information at our recently revamped website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. I trust it's going to be user-friendly and intuitive because that's what we spent money to build that thing for, and you can find the information that you want there. Please consider becoming a partner with Theocast and joining Semper Reformanda, joining the Reformation. Not only will you be a part of this other conversation weekly, there are other things that will come to you as a result of being a part of that ministry.

Jon Moffitt: I'll just add real quick that we are starting a network, so you'll be able to meet with local people in your town and discuss this podcast.

Justin Perdue: Or have virtual meetings to do it. You'll be able to talk with other Christians who are wrestling with the same stuff and are seeing the same things and are having similar experiences to you. If that sounds encouraging to you, join Semper Reformanda. Again, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. You'll find that information.

We're about to go over there and have a conversation. We'll talk to many of you over there. And then we'll talk with everyone again, we trust, next week.

---

### The Insufficiency of Christ

*Published: April 28, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-insufficiency-of-christ*
*Tags: Jesus Plus Theology*

"Jesus-plus" theology has always been popular. People add things to the gospel and to Jesus in order to legitimize their Christian lives. Is Jesus really enough for us? Not just for our salvation, but for our Christian lives? Aren't there other things we need to be concerned for? Jon and Justin consider this and more.  
  
Semper Reformanda: They guys begin by giving give more information about our plans for Semper Reformanda. And then, Jon and Justin talk about the woke church. Is the woke church preaching a different gospel? The guys also talk about marriage, complementarianism, and other things Christians tend to get worked up over.  
  
**Resources:**   
  
["Ordinary" by Michael Horton](https://amzn.to/3vqqb65%20Is%20the)  
  
[Is the Woke Church Movement a False Gospel? | ask Theocast ](https://youtu.be/%5Fm7TGpups4c)  
  
FREE Ebook: Theocast.org/primer  
  
SUPPORT Theocast: https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/  
  
FACEBOOK: Theocast: https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org  
  
TWITTER: Theocast: https://twitter.com/theocast\_org  
  
INSTAGRAM: Theocast: https://www.instagram.com/theocast\_org/  
  
https://youtu.be/9hfilZI1Mp0  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. I'm here with Justin in Knoxville, Tennessee. We're actually together. Today is an important subject on the insufficiency of Jesus. We have a pretty lively conversation about, I would say, why people have to grasp onto something other than Christ when it talks about their legitimacy and their relationship to God.  
  
And then we've started a brand new membership. We have a brand new ministry called Semper Reformanda. We'll talk about that a little bit later in the podcast. Stay tuned.  
  
Justin Perdue: So the title of the episode, because you've already seen it, is _The Insufficiency of Christ_. And we were aiming to be provocative with that title and hope that many will give this episode a listen. So we've had a number of conversations in our time together today here in Knoxville, Tennessee, working on a lot of stuff. But in between our work, we're talking theology, and we're talking about the Christian life, and we're talking the church, and all these kinds of things. We say this humbly; we hope that this comes across very clearly: we don't mean to come across as though we have this all figured out or that we don't struggle and sometimes be distracted by other things ourselves. And we certainly don't want to come across condescending, so we pray we don't. But it is very clear to us that for many people in the church, Jesus and the gospel actually are not enough for their Christian life. There always has to be something else for people to feel right about their Christian faith, about their Christian life. And so this could take any number of forms.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We can use different words, too: right, safe, excited.  
  
Justin Perdue: They need to be validated. They need to feel legit about their Christian life and their Christian faith. And it seems that for many people, for that to happen, Jesus and the gospel are not enough. There has to be additional things thrown on top of it in order for me to feel right, to feel validated, and to feel legit about my life as a Christian. And so that's what we're going to talk about today.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to go back. There are really two goals that I have when we're doing this podcast and we're having this conversation. One, this episode is for the person who's probably brand new. Someone recommended this to you. You're being introduced to Theocast, Reformed theology, or maybe the concept of resting in Christ for the first time from a confessional Reformed perspective. I also want to talk to the person who's been listening to us for a while. Because what happens is that when you get out of the boat and get into the water, and you've been swimming in the water for a while, you forget what it's like to be out of the water. You forget that the weightlessness that we feel in the water is we love to be here, and we don't remember the dredge and the fear that exists within Christianity.  
  
We get to a point where we look at those who are adding things to Jesus. We get angry with them. We get upset with them. We can even start arguing with them, which I see happening in the Facebook group, things are sent to me all the time. So I think when you can see where someone's coming from and why it is that they feel the need to add something to the sufficiency of Jesus, saying that he's insufficient, then it's helpful to obey Paul when he says be gentle, kind, patient, forbearing, long-suffering, because you're understanding the perspective they're coming from. So the point of this is to demonstrate the danger of looking at Jesus as insufficient. And also for those of us who are coaching and bringing people this direction—or I would say coaching is a bad word—but really loving people as they're making this transition to rest in Christ, looking at it from their perspective.  
  
Justin Perdue: Helping people see ways that they are prone to add things on to the gospel too, cause we all are. And to help people maybe even make some sense of what they see going on broadly on Christian Twitter. And we could do a podcast one day called Christian Twitter. I don't know. That would be a discouraging conversation.  
  
Hopefully, this is some diagnostic stuff, some discerning type stuff, and clarifying stuff. And then we're gonna end up talking about Christ and the gospel. In as much as it depends on us, that's what we want to keep doing, is just preaching Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. So what does the insufficiency of Jesus look like? What does it sound like?  
  
Justin Perdue: It depends on the scenario, but basically what we're trying to get at is a situation where in the church, or just amongst Christian friends, or it may be your Christian community, whatever those communities might look like. There's this posture where we all agree on the gospel; amen to Jesus, he is our Savior, we never move on from the gospel, we've got the gospel, we believe the gospel, we need the gospel. All of that is agreed on. But then, functionally, nobody feels validated, nobody feels legitimate, nobody feels appropriately challenged even if there's not all this other stuff then added to Christ and his sufficiency and what he has done for us. And then the exhortations that accompany that live under that, live in that; love each other, right?  
  
Let's maybe start with something that came up here with our group as we were just beginning to move toward recording this. A lot of people, when they think about preaching, when they sit and listen to sermons—you and I've gotten this critique from people who have visited our respective churches, I think, where they'll say, "Oh my gosh, the preaching of Christ and the gospel was incredible. But where's the application?" Or "When, pastor, are you going to tell me stuff that I need to be doing? Because that's what I really need to hear. I got the gospel. I know the gospel. I know that Christ is my righteousness, but tell me what I need to do." That's one way that this creeps in, and this is very common.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I know you and I both love to do this: we're going to bring out the criticism, but we don't just want to criticize bad thinking or bad theology. I want to go behind the thinking behind it, because then that helps someone walk this direction.  
  
I understand when someone says, "Justin, I love everything you're saying, but when I leave here," and it comes from a good heart, "you aren't giving me things that I can do for the Father. You weren't encouraging me to be a better husband," or a better wife, or a better father, "you're not giving me exhortations to actually then obey the very commands and Scripture that we see." That's the heart behind it.  
  
Justin Perdue: Just a brief interjection here. I'm preaching Ephesians right now. I'm preaching the last sermon in that book on Sunday. I think if you ask any person who's attended our church through the course of this sermon series, there has been plenty of exhortation to love each other, to love one another in your marriage, to love your children, to think about how you speak with one another, to flee from sin, etc. All of that's there. It's in the text, right? But your point is still made that week in and week out, what do you and I aim to emphasize unashamedly as the primary takeaway? Jesus. Christ for you. The sufficiency of Christ—how he is enough, and when we say enough, we don't mean something sentimental. We mean that he is enough for your salvation, he's enough for you to have peace and rest and to be safe.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He's enough for everything: your salvation, your sanctification, and your glorification. Because what people misunderstand in what we're saying—and those who don't go to our church, or maybe don't listen to Theocast long enough, and this is the criticism of the Reformed world, those who are Christ-centered. What they think we're doing is we're only preaching sermons that are about the work of Christ or the nature of Christ and that's it. And that is not what we're doing because I believe that Genesis three 15 absolutely is about the sufficiency of Christ, and every book after is about the sufficiency of Christ. Because if God does not fulfill His promises in his covenants, which was first promised to us at the very beginning of the event, post-fall to Eve saying that from her will come the one who is going to make all things right. So the sufficiency of Christ is seen through Genesis 3:15 all the way through the end. So it doesn't matter where you're preaching. If you're new to this, when we talk about our focus being the sufficiency of Christ, we are not saying we only preach Christocentric passages  
  
Justin Perdue: Or that we only preach justification. Because, you're right, 1 Corinthians 1:30-31, Christ has become to us wisdom from God, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. And so we do understand that our union with Christ handles everything; not just our justification, being declared righteous and reconciled to God, but also our sanctification, and it secures our glorification as well.  
  
And so, yes, ultimately for us to preach Christ, we understand we are preaching the Christian life and we are preaching what makes the Christian life possible, we are preaching what makes sanctification a reality. And that's what we want to clarify. And we do as we exhort people from the Scriptures to love each other, to serve one another, and to consider others as more significant themselves, etc. We're doing that always under the banner of Christ in the gospel.  
  
Here's the thing: we do application, but we are always doing application in a way that is clearly connected to Christ and what he's done for us. That's our goal anyway. And we'll fail as preachers, but that's what we mean to do. And so even those things that might feel more practical, like boots-on-the-ground kind of takeaways, are all driven by Christ and what he's done for us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. So going back to this criticism, we understand the heart behind it now. It's a good desire. It's a good posture.  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to glorify and honor God.  
  
Jon Moffitt: But I will tell you that when I start sitting down with these—I have a congregation full of them and so do you, because we are constantly counseling them, shepherding them, and encouraging them—we have to peel back the layers of the why. So I never criticized the heart behind it. There is a genuine desire to do what is right. But I think the theology of why they want to do what's right is what's off.  
  
For instance, I'm going to go off of experience here. This is a comment that was made recently in the last year or so. Someone was thinking about my sermons. They were thinking about it in such a way where they said, "I understand what you're saying, but you don't ever give us application of things to do." He was in a context that was so different for him. I was giving them application every single week, but they didn't want to obey the application I was giving them because their ear was so trained to hear more of the application of confirming your salvation, this is how you sustain your salvation, or this is how you sanctify yourself, this is how you validate yourself. Jesus is great to get you into the team, into the family, but now here's your role, and the role is not in relationship to what we say is biblical Christianity—which we're going to get to into in a minute, but the role is in doing these things to validate you are truly a child of God. The entire list of obedience is about finding assurance of salvation.  
  
Justin Perdue: People are wanting application in a way that I think—again, good motivations, but I think misunderstands the real battle and, and the real challenge of the Christian life, which is to trust Christ. I would say all the time, the most difficult thing to do, and the thing that is most impossible for us to do on our own strength, is to simply trust Christ and only him. And so what we're doing is aiming to preach Christ in such a way where we help people see that to trust Christ, to rest in Christ, to be even fueled and motivated by that peace, rest, and that security, and the fact that your sanctification is certain. Now go love people: love your wife, love your kids, love your neighbor. Consider how you talk to each other because you need to build each other up. Forgive each other because God in Christ has forgiven you.  
  
But all of those things are driven ultimately by that preaching of Christ, rather than us up there simply telling people something that they need to be doing, like you're saying, in order to validate them. In all of these, we're aiming to use the law lawfully. We use it on the front end to crush sinners and bring them to Christ, to show them their sin and then offer them Christ.  
  
But then even in using the law as the guide, we use it in such a way where Christ now is driving that sanctification piece of your life. You're trusting him for that. The law is simply your guide in what that looks like.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's scary.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's frightening for people. It's disorienting.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When you have been trained your entire life, that the preaching of God's word, your time, the word books you listen to, books you read, podcasts you hear, are all designed to equip you for, I would say, a performance-based Christianity or a Jesus-plus Christianity. It's almost like we're hitching our wagon to Jesus by our own efforts.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. Or people will say, "I need to be equipped so that I can do the work of ministry, but I think there's a misunderstanding of what that even means. Because the work of ministry that we are equipped for is the building up of the body of Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's to each other; ministering to each other, not to yourself.  
  
It is very disorienting when you begin to hear sermons and theology and you're in a community, and the community is not focusing on what you're doing to assure yourself, focusing on what you're doing to progress in this concept of affirming that you're truly a child of God. It terrifies people.  
  
I will tell you this right now. The criticism we get is that if you're not careful—and they don't say it this way but this is how it comes across—if you're not careful in giving people rest in Christ, they're going to live however they want. They're going to take this freedom that they have, and this is what they hear.  
  
I have had people tell me over the years that they're afraid of not doing these things; for instance, not reading their Bible or literally, the words out of their mouth were, "I want to go to a church where the pastor is telling me I must read my Bible, I must do these things. Otherwise, I'm afraid I won't do them."  
  
They are living under law and Jesus isn't sufficient enough for them to say, "I am good with the Father. I will be sanctified. I will be glorified. He who began a good work in me will complete it. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith." That is not enough for them because they have been so trained. It's almost like the Stockholm syndrome of Christianity. Like they need that slavery in order to feel safe.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's basically that response when Christ is being held out and he is being heralded as the point of everything. People deep down are wrestling with, "Okay, when are you going to give me the rest of it?" He is the whole thing. Now, there are stuff underneath we can talk about, but he is it; he is all we ultimately have to offer.  
  
I'm going to pivot us and maybe transition to another observation here that I think is related to this same concern. We don't need to like date this and timestamp it or anything, but if people have been looking at social media much at all in the last week, there's been a lot going on on Christian Twitter over various issues, particularly right now surrounding complementarianism and what that looks like—how men and women relate to one another in the church and the home and all that. It becomes very clear in times like now—and it's not just over complementarianism; you pick your secondary issue—when stuff like this happens, people come out of the woodwork it seems. Quite literally, Christians crucify each other on social media. And it seems that many people are almost addicted to controversy. And I'm not trying to sound punchy or jerkish in saying this, but it's like they don't know how to live the Christian life if there's not something to argue with, and there's not something to argue against. I need to always be defining myself by what I'm against. I need to always be polemical in the way that I think about Christianity. And I've always got to have an opponent in view, who I am trying to take down in order to feel legitimate and to be invigorated as a Christian. It's like to simply believe in the Lord Jesus, to simply rest in the Lord Jesus Christ, and to love my neighbor, to love the saints is not enough.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To be about the work of the local church.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. It's not enough because what I need to be doing is I need to speak the truth, I need to be a bulldog for truth, I need to stand on the wall and make sure that nobody is in error. And I think that part of what's going on for people like that is this issue that to rest in Christ and be about the business of the local church is not enough for me to feel legitimate and good about myself as a Christian, and so I need to be making sure that all these other people are orthodox and I've got to be fighting with people all the time. There's always an argument to win. There's always a battle to be waged.  
  
What I want to say is that as much as it depends on us, one, we're going to be over here preaching Christ and seeking to love our neighbor. But then, two, I want for people who are doing this and engaging in this... Secondary issues matter a lot; it's not that they don't, but they really matter in your own local church where you have a shared confessional standard and you are all submitting yourselves to the discipline and doctrine of that church and these pastors. We need to agree about these things, but then when it comes to other people out there, it's okay that there may be some disagreement and we want to keep the main thing the main thing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. I have two thoughts on that. Those people that are what I would call "watchdog junkies".  
  
Justin Perdue: They're orthodoxy police.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. All they do are watch YouTube video after YouTube video about how there are all of these theological errors. And don't get us wrong: Theocast has no problem with pointing out theological error.  
  
Justin Perdue: And we care about the doctrine.  
  
Jon Moffitt: But the goal is not to point out the error. We never want that. The tagline of our ministry is "Encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ". We're more designing or peeling back that which is weighing you down. Like Hebrews 12 says, setting aside the weight, and the sin that easily besets you. We're trying to help point out these weights that we put on us, pietism, and we want you to pull those off. But there's a difference when the end result is we want the person we are talking to to rest in Christ. When I hear these watchdog junkies or these orthodox police, they just want to shred these people.  
  
Justin Perdue: They want to mow people down in Jesus' name.  
  
Jon Moffitt: They throw the word "heresy" so fast and so quick that if you ever even wanted that person to listen to you, there's no way they would because you have so quickly mowed them down. These are the two things I was talking to Andrew about on the way up here. He asked me the question, "What does pietism produce?" It produces three things: it produces fear, it produces a lack of assurance, but it also produces self-righteousness. What happens in these watchdog, attack mode type of a thing—and you can see people are invigorated, they're excited, they're standing for the truth, they are protectors of the who are not going to compromise—but what it really does is create this unbearably stingy self-righteousness that I honestly can't stand.  
  
Justin Perdue: In some situations, Jon, it destroys unity around the gospel. It destroys the unity around Christ. And I agree with you—I think a lot of the identity in that kind of a situation, for people that are engaging in this, a lot of their identity is derived from this stand for truth. Like my stand for truth is validating me as a believer. I am dedicated. I am of the number who are sincere and zealous and committed. The line of thinking in that situation often, too, for people, is they say things and people get angry with them. And the takeaway for them always is, "Well, people are only getting mad at me because I'm speaking the truth." Again, it's this validation thing. "People are mad at me because I'm saying the truth and people hate the truth and they hate God." They might be mad at you because you're being a jerk and maybe you haven't considered that. But again, what we're trying to drive at here is where is your identity found? Where is your sufficiency found? It's not found in this stuff and how many people you mow down on Twitter; your identity and your sufficiency is always and only found in Jesus. And then what I pray we would all engage in is to maintain our doctrinal standards and our confessional heritage, but then look for unity in any place we can because we have Christ in common.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. When we talk about doctrinal standards, sometimes I think people hear me or Justin say that it is almost an either-or scenario. You were either gracious in unifying froo-froo. So it's all marshmallows and fluff and puff. There are people over here who are like, "Oh, we're going to drop the rock, bro. We don't care if you shatter. Truth is truth, and we're going to stand for truth." It's not either-or.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's truth and love. They actually go together.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The rock of our salvation, the God in the flesh, the living Word was surrounded by sinners, surrounded by sin. So there's no way God compromised His beliefs, His doctrine, His theology. He did not set them aside. He did not lower them. He did not excuse them. And yet the very nature of who God is drew sinners to Himself. So I have to take note of this and that even when Paul says speaking the truth in love, our significance, this rest that we find in Christ, doesn't cause us to be less excited about the truth. It causes us to be more excited about the truth.  
  
When I listen to these people, the goal is to be right. "We're right, and you're wrong." No, the goal is to love these people, and the way to love them is of course to give them the truth. And they'll even say, "Well, I am loving them by telling the truth." But it's telling the truth in love, though. The goal at the end of it, even though they may disagree with you and say, "Yeah, I hear your truth and I don't agree with it. I reject it," they should still feel loved.  
  
Justin Perdue: Honestly, I think that if we're going to offend people, we want to offend people with the preaching of Christ in the gospel. He is a stumbling block, and he is a cornerstone; those who fall and crash against him will be broken. That's true. But they'll be broken because they're trusting in something else other than him, they are proud and arrogant in their sin and don't see their need for Christ. We want to offend people with the preaching and the proclamation of Jesus and his sufficiency in the place of sinners, not alienate everybody over these secondary issues.  
  
Not that we shouldn't contend for truth. Amen, we should. Like you said, it's not either-or, it's both. We want to love people and be clear about what matters most, and then be charitable about the things certainly that we can disagree about. And then even in the ways that we engage conversations on secondary issues, let's be charitable and gracious and keep the main thing the main thing.  
  
The way that we aim to operate here at Theocast is intentional. There's a reason why we have Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, and all kinds listen to us because we aim to never divide over issues like that. Now it matters for our local churches how we understand baptism or covenant theology.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Don't confuse that we don't have doctrinal standards that we hold to.  
  
Justin Perdue: For our own local churches, those things matter very much. If you're gonna be a member of Covenant Baptist Church, or Grace Reformed Church, they matter tremendously. But when it comes to this and what we're doing here, and when it comes to Christianity broadly, like in America, for example, or Christian social media, our posture is to keep heralding Jesus. And we are going to be very charitable about things that we know we have disagreements with other brothers and sisters about. We're not going to beat those drums. We're going to beat the drum of Christ because he is ultimately the person who we all unify around because we all know we need him; he's our hope, he's our peace, he's our sanctification, he's our salvation. And so let's do that. Jesus is enough even to unite us, and then in our own local churches, let's absolutely hammer these things out.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. And I would even say there's nothing wrong. You and I have had wonderful conversations with our brothers in Christ that are Lutheran, who are Anglican, who are Presbyterian. And some of my dearest friends fit all of those categories—men that I love and I trust. So what ends up happening though, and I would say fundamentalism and pietism are great examples of this, where we blur the lines on primary and secondary issues. What is a secondary issue, and something that you and I should be able to disagree over but not necessarily separate over—we blend those two.  
  
Justin Perdue: Just be clear: the primary issue would be something you need to believe to be a Christian. Secondary issue would be—the way I would define it is you need to agree about this to be in the same church. But it's not a test of whether or not you're a Christian.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Primary is an orthodoxy issue.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's an issue of orthodoxy and heresy.  
  
Jon Moffitt: These are just for the listeners who may not understand that you're talking about the nature of Christ, the Trinity, the nature of justification, sanctification, and all of those things.  
  
Justin Perdue: Secondary issues would be things like complementarianism, baptism, church government, things like that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Justin and I are openly 1689 London Baptist Confession, Covenantal Baptists.  
  
Justin Perdue: And we are unashamed of that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We are very convicted in those beliefs, but we understand that when we look at the theology of our other brothers in Christ, that some of them that are not even confessional, we will look at them and say they do understand this, and they are a properly heralding sufficiency of Christ. Let's encourage that. Let's not tear them down.  
  
Justin Perdue: Sufficiency of Christ, distinction between law and gospel, justification, theology of the cross. There are so many things that we agree on. Why would we, even on a podcast like this, take shots at other Christians over stuff and argue over these things when we can promote unity around the Lord Jesus and how he has saved us?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Because the goal is to help people see that Jesus truly is sufficient. So when you ask Justin, Jimmy, or I what we're trying to do at Theocast or what we're trying to do in our churches, we want people to know, trust, and rest in Jesus as being enough. We're even starting a conference called Enough.  
  
Justin Perdue: Hopefully coming next year.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah, very soon. Because this message, we believe, has been cluttered and it has been, I think, damaged because we now live in a culture of Jesus-plus. And the reason is because we have started fighting about secondary issues. We started losing sight of the sufficiency of Christ and preaching Christ's sufficiency.  
  
Even your quote by Bayes a couple of weeks ago. We were talking about how when we don't distinguish the law and the gospel, it causes all kinds of damage. So we want to pull the clutter off of that and say, no, the sufficiency of Christ is enough. And we understand that it's scary to trust something other than just Christ. We want to somehow say, "I'm good because of this." And if this isn't Jesus, then we're here to say then you're not good—and that's scary to hear.  
  
Part of the podcast today is to say that if you feel that tug and you feel that war within you where it sounds scary to think you can... When we say rest, people hear quit. When people hear rest, people hear stop. That's what they hear. They hear quit trying, stop, or even say they also hear we're not concerned about holiness.  
  
Justin Perdue: So I do think when we say rest in Christ, or when we say that Jesus is sufficient, those are the two phrases that you and I use the most when we're just talking to each other. And when we're thinking about anything that we want to put out broadly related to Theocast or our ministries, rest in Christ, the sufficiency of Christ, by those things, we certainly don't mean quit in terms of quitting seeking to honor God with your life. We do mean quit trying to save yourself with God's help. We do mean quit trying to validate yourself before God, because He's already told you what He thinks of you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There's nothing that can separate us.  
  
Justin Perdue: He has told us who and what we are. We have a new identity now. We're not chasing after that. We have a new status now; we're justified, we're declared righteous. We're not chasing after righteousness. So in that sense, we are saying quit running like a hamster on a wheel after your identity, because God's given it to you in His Son. Quit running after your status in terms of righteousness, because God's given you that in His son. No righteousness will ever be required of you that Jesus hasn't provided for you. No debt will ever be demanded of you that Jesus has not paid in full. So quit trying to do that. But by all means, try to love your neighbor. Try to give your life away for the good of your brothers and sisters, pursue all of that stuff knowing that you're safe in Christ and that you have rest in him.  
  
And so that's what we mean. It's not give up and quit wholesale; it is give up on trying to justify yourself because we all try to do that. And we're exhorting people to rest in Jesus, see the sufficiency of Christ, and now that you're free and you're safe, you know that your sanctification is certain, and you know that your glorification is certain. We need that reminder all the time. Even as I'm saying this and these words are coming out of my mouth, I'm like, "Lord, give me faith to do just that." But as we preach that message to one another from the Word all the time, we now are free to go and love one another, and to build up the body of Christ, and to love our neighbor, and to consider them as more significant than ourselves, because my eyes are now not just simply fixed on me and my own performance. I can actually fix my eyes on other people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. So when you start hearing sermons, you'll be able to pick out the difference of when someone believes that Jesus is insufficient to provide for all that you need versus someone who truly believes that Jesus is sufficient. The person who believes that Jesus is sufficient is trying to pull out of your hands all that you are claiming, brings you clarity and hope, and puts Christ in there. And the person who is confused—they are going to be handing you means by which you can prove your sufficiency, and it comes in the form of lists of the five ways of doing this and the seven ways of that.  
  
I think the easiest way of knowing the differences between sufficiency in self versus sufficiency in Christ is where they are pointing you towards, where you can say this is where safety is found.  
  
Justin Perdue: And this is where legitimacy is found.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. "I am legitimately safe and can rest because I am doing this." That right there believes Jesus isn't sufficient. But if you can say, "I am legitimate and safe, and I can rest because of what Christ has done for me," that, at that moment, Jesus is sufficient—and that is a message that you want to embrace.  
  
So we have a new podcast. We announced it earlier in the Facebook group, and by now it's already been out a couple of weeks. We got rid of our old membership. It was great. We loved it. But now we have something new called Semper Reformanda. If you are loving what you're hearing and you want to be a part of this conversation, there are two ways that you can do it. One, Justin and I are about to do a second podcast—it's called Semper Reformanda—where we take these weekly episodes and we take it to the next level. I definitely would say it's a step up and unfiltered, where we are going to pull up a chair around the table and say, "Sit down and let's process this with you." How did we get here? How did we come to these conclusions? What can we give you that you can help other people come to this conclusion as well? So that's Semper Reformanda. And then we are providing ways for you to go and meet in your local community and discuss this with other listeners. We have an app that you can download and you'll be able to use that app to find a local either online community if there's not a community in your area, or you can go and start one and continue this conversation about furthering the Reformation. So we're going to head over to that conversation. If you want to know more about it, you can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. It'll be right there on the top. It'll say Semper Reformanda. Join the Reformation.  
  
We look forward to having you as a part of our team, a part of those who are helping other people find the sufficiency of Christ.  
  
We'll see you next week.

---

### Leaving Dispensationalism

*Published: April 21, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/leaving-dispensationalism*
*Tags: Church*

Our listeners have been asking for a podcast about leaving dispensationalism. We try to give the people what they want! Jon and Justin talk about why we are not dispensational. We talk personally and theologically, covering topics such as: the redemptive-historical framework of Scripture, covenant theology, law/gospel distinction, sanctification, and the ordinary means of grace.  
  
Semper Reformanda Podcast: In our first ever Semper Reformanda podcast, we talk more in-depth about the differences between a confessional, reformed perspective and a dispensational perspective. We tell a story or two and share some of the things that we most want our listeners to know.  
  
**Resources:**  
  
FREE EBOOK [Theocast.org/primer](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/primer)
* Our podcast: Law/Gospel [https://youtu.be/EMSfwPUuuVk ](https://youtu.be/EMSfwPUuuVk)
* Our podcast: Demands of the Gospel? [https://youtu.be/VHUmO4eD8Lk ](https://youtu.be/VHUmO4eD8Lk)
* Our podcast: Are You a Legalist or an Antinomian? [https://youtu.be/xvGhu9Pc2LA ](https://youtu.be/xvGhu9Pc2LA)
* Our teaching series: Covenant Theology [https://youtu.be/iCfzmujnlHo ](https://youtu.be/iCfzmujnlHo)
SUPPORT Theocast: [https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/ ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/give/)  
  
FACEBOOK: Theocast: [https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org ](https://www.facebook.com/Theocast.org)  
  
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INSTAGRAM: Theocast: <https://www.instagram.com/theocast%5Forg/>  
  
[**SEMPER REFORMANDA Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/leaving-dispensationalism-sr/)  
  
https://youtu.be/sN55OsdqNoM  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we are going to do our best to give the people what they want. By popular demand, we are going to try to answer the question why it is that we have left dispensationalism. Perhaps you're out there and you have spent some time in a dispensationalist context, or maybe you're just seeing aspects of dispensational teaching in your current environment. We're going to have a conversation today about the distinctions between our perspective that is Reformed and confessional over and against the perspective that is dispensational. Jon and I are going to talk a little bit personally, we're going to talk theologically. We hope that this is a clarifying conversation for you, and as always, we hope it encourages you in the Lord Jesus Christ. Stay tuned.  
  
We're going to talk today because of popular demand. We're going to talk today about leaving dispensationalism. We're just trying to give the people what they want, and we had a number of people on the Facebook group post about this. When the first post went up, there were lots of other people that chimed in and said, "Yes, please talk about this." So we're gonna talk about it a little bit today.  
  
The episode is entitled, as already said, _Leaving Dispensationalism_. Just to clarify a little bit of what we're going to try to do today, we're not going to give a bunch of technical, deep, heady definitions of dispensational theology or anything like that. What we're going to do is hopefully aim to have an approachable conversation where we talk about the high level distinctions between our Reformed confessional perspective and a dispensational perspective.  
  
Before we even get into it, I'll just go ahead and give a little bit of my background that is relevant right now, and then Jon, you can talk a little bit about you as well. My exposure to dispensational theology was more general in that I was a part of a church that was self-consciously liberal theologically, but had a very mixed bag in terms of the membership of the church. Many of the members of the church were conservative—at least theologically—and certainly conservative morally. They had been heavily influenced by the default dispensational evangelical-ish theology that was out there in the 20th century in America. I absorbed some of that and was never taught anything contrary to it. And so basically, by default, I would have had notions of, for example, the pre-tribulation rapture understanding of the end of the world. I definitely was aware of Tim LaHaye's _Left Behind_ series. Whenever the judgment house thing would happen, there was definitely the rapture that occurred and the piles of clothes everywhere, and you don't want to be left because then you're gonna have to go through tribulation and all kinds of things. That was my exposure to it all.  
  
Then I began to read and encounter different theology in my early to mid-twenties. And as I began to read, study, and investigate Scripture more on my own from a more Reformed covenantal perspective, I started to see the distinctions between what I had absorbed and what I was now learning.  
  
That's enough about me. Jon, why don't you let the people know a little bit about your background? Because you, even more than I was, were steeped in dispensationalism, and even went to a postgraduate institution that would champion this kind of understanding of Scripture.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I've been in different kinds of dispensationalism. I grew up in the independent, fundamental Baptist world. My dad was a preacher for 20 years before he passed away in that world. And progressively coming out of it, for those of you that know anything about that world, my dad used to work for Jack Hyles, and then he slowly started to read men like John MacArthur and he started leaving it. The two colleges that I went to were both dispensational. Most of the churches I worked in in my early twenties were all dispensational. So I was very familiar with the branding and the style, I would even say, the hermeneutic and the theology. And then I ended up going to probably one of the most prominent dispensational schools that are conservative, and I would say Calvinistic, in today's world. I went to the Master's Seminary. And it was there that I really began to dive deep into the dispensational perspective, and understand the nuances and the different kinds of dispensationalism. So it's not just dispensational theology—there's actually different kinds. And this is not an overview of what this is because there's plenty of information out there of what dispensationalism is. MacArthur and the school are probably more of a progressive dispensationalism.  
  
Justin Perdue: Versus a classic historical dispensational view.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. And there are definitely some differences. I think progressive is by far better hermeneutically than a traditional classical. There's a lot of concerns that come from there.  
  
What we're going to really talk about is why I left it and why we don't hold to that perspective.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or at least why we're not there today; why we believe something else.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're going to talk about the major differences, and I would say these are differences that the majority—now, you I'm sure you can find a dispensationalist that's going to counteract this; this is the thing about it is that theology just can get so broad. But I would say mainline dispensational, and I would even say mainline progressive dispensationalism, for the sake of this argument—my seminary, my alma mater, and John MacArthur would disagree with us. That's really what this podcast is about; it is what we embrace to be what we think is biblical and historically accurate in our perspective. To be clear, Justin, I think it's safe to say this; we need to say this: we love our dispensational brothers, we do not think they're heretical. Again, I'm sure there's some weirdo out there that holds to some weird doctrine and calls himself dispensationalist; I am not going to be the straw man who torches that. That is just not fair.  
  
Justin Perdue: The only things that we would condemn from a dispensational perspective are things that most dispensationalists have already condemned themselves. Like the idea that there are two different covenants of salvation: one with Israel and one with the church. That has been rejected by the vast majority of people that would call themselves dispensationalists, and we too would look at that and say that is not at all faithful to Scripture, but is a false doctrine.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's correct. Israel was not saved by the law and those underneath it are saved by Christ. That's just not correct. Now that was taught by some, but it is not the prominent view today. And so we aren't going to bring that up as one of the oppositions because that's not what they're saying, and we do not want to misrepresent them.  
  
So I would say the easiest place to begin when we're thinking about the differences and what my journey out of dispensational theology was... When I was actually in seminary, steeped in it, studying all the different books that I was reading. They had a lot. They were talking about continuity and discontinuity between the New Testament and the Old Testament, understanding that the different dispensations, and then of course I had classes on covenant theology and the way in which it was being presented.  
  
As I began to read Scripture in really new eyes, when I stopped trying to read into the text—the moral application of being like David and or like Daniel—one of the things that I am very thankful for that my seminary taught me is to understand the authorial intent. What is the author's intentions in writing the book? One of the things that I took from that, and sometimes our dispensational friends only go to the actual author, like Moses, the Psalms, Paul, etc. But the book is authored by one God, which is our sovereign Being, and we have to ask, what was His authorial intent? What can we look at from Scripture to determine what His intentions for writing these books? Then you can lower down into the individual authors, and then you can lower down even more into the individual applications of that text. For instance, what were they trying to communicate in this particular section or this paragraph?  
  
So what I began to discover is that the Bible had one story. It was really describing one pushing narrative. Now the dispensationalist will say it's the glory of God—it is the overarching purpose of God's word and why He wrote it, which we're not going to disagree with that because everything is for the glory of God. But you can't just say this book is about God's glory when it has in the very opening scene in Genesis 3 the major theme, which is the fall of man and God's promise to restore men. So it's redemption.  
  
So I began to see Scripture unfold from a redemption or redemptive understanding, and, I would say, that it's not only just redemptive but it's redemption through history. So the technical term for it is a redemptive-historical understanding. When this was introduced to me and I was reading through the counter-arguments to covenant theology, I was taken aback by how can this not be right when it seems like all you have is the further progression of God's promises to His people through covenants and prophecies to bring us the Messiah. I quickly began to see a redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture to be an accurate way of understanding how to explain the Bible.  
  
Justin Perdue: We do not disagree with the dispensationalist that says that the Bible is about the glory of God, but we want to be more specific because we think the text is more specific and it's more clear in terms of how it is that God gets glory for Himself. And certainly He is glorified in having His righteousness vindicated through judgment. And at the same time, it is quite clear that God is glorified, I'm going to go in and say is most glorified, in the work of redemption accomplished by His Son, Jesus. That is a big point of difference which dovetails with another piece.  
  
Not only is our understanding of covenant theology at odds with a dispensational hermeneutic—with respect to the Bible and how it hangs together, how redemptive history unfolds, and the like—we also are going to be explicitly Christocentric; we're going to be Jesus-centered in how we understand the Bible and its main point, that it is God's plan of redemption accomplished through Christ that brings God glory. And our dispensational friends will disagree with us on that because for them, at the center of God's plan to glorify Himself—of course, they're not going to deny that Jesus is a part of this—but at the center of God's plan to bring Himself glory is Israel and how God works through Israel. It's a very Israel-centric hermeneutic where ours is unapologetically Jesus-centric in terms of how God goes about saving His people, what the point all along was. We're basically taking our cue from Christ himself and certainly the apostles as they understand the entire Old Testament to be ultimately about Jesus, the Christ, and what he would come to do in order to accomplish redemption—all to the praise of God's glorious grace.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To maybe bring some clarity, what's so hard is the nuance here. We don't want to misrepresent. Hear our hearts and hear how we're trying to express some technical differences.  
  
Every dispensationalist I talked to would say, of course, Jesus is the point of the Bible. They wouldn't reject that because to reject that would be weird.  
  
Justin Perdue: How do you even reject such a statement?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. So we don't want to throw that straw man out there either. Their rejection is this: "Jon, you guys find Jesus under every rock. When you say it's Christocentric, you're saying that you need to find Jesus in every single verse." I would say if you're projecting upon the text, just like I would say people do when we think about projecting moral applications—be like Daniel, be like David—you shouldn't do that either. That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is the narrative and the purpose behind what was written is to further explain, clarify, and reveal the shadow of Christ as we get closer to the substance of Christ. So we think everything in the Old Testament is a greater shadow, a revealing of what's going on when it comes to the actual substance of Christ. All of the Bible is Christocentric.  
  
Justin Perdue: Like you're saying, I think the big difference of where this comes out most pointedly is how we read and understand the Old Testament, because we read and understand the Old Testament with Christ at the center of it as well. We do not read anything going on about the nation of Israel, with the nation of Israel, and read that without Christ in view as the backdrop. I would even say a better way to phrase it is the lens through which we view Israel is Jesus. And so that, I think, is a difference between our perspective and a dispensational view. It is a hermeneutic and a hermeneutic is a means or a method of interpretation. We, again, are not forcing anything down on the text; we are taking our cue from Christ and the apostles and understanding that the point of the Bible is to reveal God's plan of redemption through history as it has unfolded, and all of His plan to save His people has centered upon Christ. We would understand, like you said at the beginning, Jon, that yes, we're concerned with authorial intent at the human level—Moses, Paul, David, whoever it may be—and we are primarily concerned with authorial intent at the divine level, because there is one Author of Scripture, namely the Holy Spirit who inspired men to write exactly what God would have written down. And so we want to get underneath any kind of human authorial intent and see exactly what God intends to reveal- and God has not left us in the dark on that. Because as we look at the entire canon and how it hangs together, we are able to better interpret the Old Testament in light of the New. And as we've said many times on here, the best interpreter of the Old Testament is the Holy Spirit speaking to us in the New Testament.  
  
That's where we're going to come at odds, I think, with some of our dispensational friends. If we were to go to an Old Testament text, it's going to come very obvious that the way that we're coming at it is different.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's really helpful. I think it's encouraging to see where we do agree with our dispensational brothers. This is why we can call them our brothers. There's a lot I've learned from them. They've been super helpful in their interpretation of Scripture. But I will say that it does impact your use of the Old Testament completely. My Alma mater did an entire lecture series on why they would reject a Christocentric understanding of the Old Testament. John MacArthur has openly stated that the primary reason he teaches from the New Testament is that we're in the New Testament era.  
  
Justin Perdue: We're in the era of the gospel of the Messiah, and so the Old Testament is really not all that applicable other than to moralize it and apply it in those kinds of ways. Is that fair?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. And if you go to his book on preaching, it's been around for years, which he still holds to that. Basically you can use the Old Testament for great illustrations, and then there are sections about the prophecy of Christ. But as it relates to preaching Christ from the Old Testament, it's just not something that they promote  
  
Justin Perdue: Whereas for us, again, as Reformed guys who are covenantal in our theology, we hold to the three historic covenants: the first one being the covenant of redemption that was made in eternity past between the members of the Godhead, most pointedly between the Father and the Son, where the Father and Son agreed together about redemption and how it would be accomplished, then the Son is going to be the one to do it. Then we would understand the covenant of works that God made with Adam in the garden, and dispensationalists would disagree with us on that language. They would just say that's just not in the Scripture. And then we also would understand the covenant of grace that is promised in Genesis 3:15, when God promises that there would be one who would be the seed of the woman who would crush the serpent's head. We understand that to be the first promise of the covenant of grace that then is going to be revealed through further steps, and ultimately established through Christ in the new covenant. Dispensationalists would disagree with us completely with respect to that framework. They would say, "Well, that's not in the Bible. You guys are imposing that down upon the text." And we would just say, no, actually we are aiming to responsibly read the entire Bible and see how it hangs together as a whole, and therefore what we're saying about these covenants actually comes up out of the text and then helps us understand the whole thing.  
  
I'll go ahead and throw these two words out there and briefly define them. When a dispensationalist would argue with us about covenant theology and say that those three covenants respectively are not in the Bible, I think two things are going on. One is a little bit of word-concept fallacy, where the words that you're using are not in the Bible, and so we shouldn't talk that way. And of course the greatest thing to bring up there is the word "trinity" is not in the Bible, yet it's the best way we know to express the threeness and the oneness of God, so three-in-one. Trinity. The other thing that I think goes on with dispensationalist is because of their high view of the Bible and their high view of inerrancy, they do tend toward biblicism, where there's just this, "Well, we need to see a chapter and verse in a text, and then we can talk this way. And what you're saying is not there, chapter and verse, in that sense, and so we disagree with your theological framework." To which again, our response is this stuff is very clearly revealed over the course of the whole canon from Genesis to Revelation, and it makes sense of the entire thing, and there's this unified thread that runs through—and covenant theology in a redemptive-historical understanding, with Jesus at the center, all of that hangs together.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We are thankful to our dispensational brothers. They do fight against the logical conclusion of biblicism, which ends up being open theism. Because if you have to have the actual text to say something, or you take every text literal and you won't allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, and you do not allow the explanation of all of Scripture to apply, you could come to the conclusion that God doesn't know the future, that God isn't in the future, and that God isn't eternal- and that's what open theism has done. It's the ultimate conclusion of biblicism.  
  
Justin Perdue: And we will do a podcast on biblicism, I trust, in the next few months, because it's something that Jon and I have talked about. Biblicism, basically, what you get there is people take words in the biblical text and they pit one text against another. They introduce a tension and a mystery that is actually not there, that can be harmonized and explained quite easily with appropriate hermeneutical tools. But biblicism actually unsettles us because it's like this is saying this, and this is saying that, and apparently there's a contradiction here, and there's a mystery and a tension here—and that actually does not exist if we understand the Scripture rightly, we would argue. For example, from a covenantal, redemptive-historical, Christ-centered perspective.  
  
Jon Moffitt: A dispensationalist would openly agree that they are not covenantal. As a matter of fact, it literally is A and B.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's oil and water.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It is. There is a distinct difference that both covenantalists and historic dispensationalist are not going to agree on these frameworks of interpretation. And I will say that dispensationalism is a framework of interpretation. It's how you interpret God's word. They would say the way in which they understand the word of God to unfold and explain itself is through these seven dispensations, which we're not going to get into, but they are going to interpret all of their Bible through those lenses. The application of it is going to come from that lens of a seven dispensation lens. Now, people are going to differ on what those dispensations are, it is broken up and there's no continuity between the two.  
  
Justin Perdue: But those seven dispensations in and of themselves or a theological system and framework. I think what's interesting is that the dispensationalist argument against Reformed covenantal types like us is that we are using and relying too much upon a theological framework or a theological system, and implication is they are not. Those seven dispensations—that's a system and a framework of its own.  
  
The other thing that can sometimes happen is, at least I've heard this before, a dispensationalist will say, "We're just using the Bible, whereas you guys are using confessions and creeds and things like this alongside the Scripture." Humbly, I would say this: what do you think that Scofield Study Bible is? That thing has some stuff that's not in the biblical text too that very much sounds like a confessional or a creed of sorts. It certainly contains some kind of a theological system in it, and you're claiming that you're not doing that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I very rarely meet somebody who can fully explain dispensationalism and they came up with it on their own. It's been handed down to them. I just have never really met someone who fully explained dispensationalism and then a dispensationalist goes, "You know that's dispensational theology." Again, is it out there? Sure. Broadly speaking, that is not the case.  
  
We have to be careful that just because it's not a specific verse or word in the Bible doesn't mean the concept doesn't stand. The Trinity, or even the eternality of God, or the sovereignty of God—these big concepts, a lot of time, it takes a lot of Scripture to help explain what's going on with this theological understanding, or we could say system, or we could say systematic of understanding it. So when I began to understand covenant theology and the hermeneutic of it, I very much embraced the idea of it because it was consistent with the flow of Scripture, and it was consistent with the explanation of Scripture. Just to be clear, Justin and I are Reformed in our understanding from a covenantal perspective of the London Baptist Confession. If you want to know the technical phrase of that, it would be the 1689 Federalism is our understanding of that. Full explanation of that in the link or in our comments. We did a whole five-part series on our perspective of covenant theology. So we'll move on from that. We don't need to spend more time there.  
  
Justin Perdue: Last thing I may say before we move on to another item. I've referenced this earlier, and I think you have too, Jon. The fact that Israel is such a big deal in terms of a dispensational theological framework, where Israel becomes a big point of emphasis and focus from a dispensational perspective, to the point that I think, at least as I've always heard it taught and explained, and even as you and I have talked—and I think this holds water but you can push back on me if you think this is overstating it—but I think that in a dispensational view, Israel, in terms of God's people and God's saving His people, Israel is the point and the church is kind of the parenthesis. Whereas from our perspective, we would say it's actually maybe the opposite: that Israel is the parenthesis and that the church, God's people, the Jew and the Gentile, the elect from all nations, tribes, and peoples around the throne of God—that's the point, and that Israel was the parenthesis. That's a fundamentally different perspective there, too, in terms of how we understand God's purposes in redemption and what He's always been out to accomplish.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And I will say because of these two theological differences, the dispensationalist has a heavy view on in time theology, the rapture. Now, this may not be true today of all dispensationalists, but of the ones I grew up in, and Tim LaHaye, and you were talking about the _Left Behind_ series. The in time theology was a scare tactic to get you to live straight.  
  
Justin Perdue: It was all fear and judgment.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. There was no assurance on Christ and resting in Christ while looking forward to the return of Christ. I was dreading the return of Christ. I did not want him to come.  
  
Justin Perdue: It was a frightening reality.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We would do the whole "scare people by leaving our clothes all over" for a youth group. I actually watched the original _Left Behind_ series back in the seventies, I think. It was very disturbing.  
  
The number one question we get all the time, because a lot of dispensationalists are listening to us, they ask us what our hermeneutic on in time theology is. Because it's so emphasized and it's so part of the theological system that what you believe about the return of Christ is of paramount, for whatever reason.  
  
We're not gonna do a podcast on this today, but I'm gonna just throw this out there that dispensationalists, amillennialists, postmillennialists, historic premillennialists—any of those positions that you want to take, they all agree that Christ is coming back, he's going to rule, and reign and we will live with him forever in our new bodies, in a new heavens and a new earth—in a physical realm, not a spiritual realm. All positions hold that. Our brothers, we do not need to be calling each other heretics in our disagreements on these positions. Justin and I have our perspective. Whatever reason in the dispensational world, the return of Christ and those details, if you don't get it wrong, you are a heretic in some way.  
  
Justin Perdue: If you don't get it right, and if you don't have a particular view on it, then you are less than, at best, if not anathema in terms of how you would be viewed.  
  
I agree with you, Jon. Whenever I talk about eschatology, even teaching our membership class at our church, our elders are united in our perspective. I don't tell people what that is. And I also will say to them, "Here's what you need to agree on: that Jesus is coming back, that it's going to be personal, it's going to be visible, it's going to be bodily, it's going to be glorious. And that there will be a judgment according to righteousness, and that all those in Christ will be resurrected on to eternal life, and to live with God forever and with each other in a new heavens and a new earth that's just as physical as this. If we believe those things, we're good to go." We're going to be charitable there.  
  
All right. Let's move on.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We got two more we gotta get to. Law-gospel distinction. Justin, real quick, tell us what it is and why it's different.  
  
Justin Perdue: I can talk about what the law-gospel distinction is first.  
  
We've done some podcasts, and I'm sure we'll link to this in the show notes. We've done several podcasts on law-gospel distinction. And even the podcasts that would have released a few weeks ago at this point called _Are You a Legalist or an Antinomian?_ is a very good law-gospel podcast in itself where we understand that there is a distinction between the law and the gospel where they need to be kept distinct. The law reveals, most pointedly and fundamentally, in God's moral law what God requires of humanity if we are going to be righteous in His sight. And then the gospel, distinct from the law, reveals what God has done for us through Christ. So the law tells us what we need to do, the gospel tells us what God has done through Jesus for us in our place.  
  
And so the law, as we understand it, because of the fall and because we are all born corrupt, we're born sinful, we all stand condemned by the law. And so the things that the law demands of us, we can't do. And then the gospel though, on the flip side, is completely about what Jesus has done and actually contains not one single word of anything that we need to do. It is the news of Christ and what he has accomplished for us in our place that we receive simply by faith, by trusting in Christ.  
  
That distinction between law and gospel is huge in a confessional Reformed theological framework, and it has everything to do with assurance and peace before God. Because when we blend law and gospel or confuse those two categories, a lot of bad things happen. But perhaps the first thing that often occurs is you end up turning the gospel into a kind of covenant of works, where there are things that you need to do in order to be saved, even by Christ. There are things that the gospel demands of us that we need to be doing, and we would disagree with that notion. There are no demands made in the gospel, but it is a proclamation and a declaration of something that has already been done for us that we receive.  
  
And so we would live and die on this hill. We would contend for this. We would stake our ministries on this: the distinction between law and gospel. A dispensationalist is not going to agree with us on this law-gospel distinction perspective.  
  
Why don't you unpack that a little bit in terms of where the disagreement would lie?  
  
Jon Moffitt: There are articles by prominent evangelicals that are out there that are dispensationalist, people that I graduated from school with, and even my own school would say, "We don't see this hermeneutic." To be clear, again, not every Bible verse in the Bible can be defined as either law or gospel. There's narrative and all those things. So don't be thinking that we're trying to put this on into every verse. But when we're in a passage, we do have to ask ourselves if we're being told what we must do to save ourselves or are we being told what was done so that we are saved?  
  
Justin Perdue: Are we being told what we need to do in order to be righteous?  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. I would even say the three uses of the law is also a great definition of something that's different probably between dispensationalism and Reformed. What happens when you're not careful to separate the law from the gospel, and I would say not all dispensationalist would hold to lordship salvation, but because of men like John MacArthur who has made dispensationalism, Calvinism, and lordship salvation so popular over the last 30 or 40 years. 50 years, I think, he's now been preaching. Bless his heart for that. Faithful man. Anyways, because of that, law-gospel distinction begins to break down lordship salvation because the passages that are used to promote lordship salvation or actually law, not gospel. They would say for instance, books that have been read, _Hard to Believe_, _The Gospel According to Jesus_, _The Gospel According to the Apostles_—all of those are hard passages. Like when the rich young ruler comes and says, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" That's a law passage we turn into a gospel passage.  
  
Justin Perdue: We collapsed the two categories and we ended up confusing both the law and the gospel.  
  
Really quick, Jon, to pick up on what you said about the uses of the law—I'm only going to talk about one of them. For us as Reformed guys, and we've got Lutheran friends who would agree with us on this as well, the first and greatest use of the law is to show us our sin and to drive us to Christ—and a dispensationalist, to my understanding, would not articulate the point of the law that way. Because again, it has everything to do with our redemptive-historical hermeneutic and a Christ-centered hermeneutic in answering what was the law for. We are ultimately going to understand that, ala Paul in Romans 5 and Galatians 3, that the law came in to increase the trespass, to bankrupt us, and crush us so that we might be driven to Christ who fulfilled the law for us in his active obedience, in his perfect life.  
  
That's the active obedience of Jesus in fulfilling the law is another huge tenant of our theology that is a result of our study of Scripture, but also it dovetails beautifully with how we understand the law in the first place.  
  
We can just move forward.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I do have some thoughts on that, but we're going to save that for Semper Reformanda a little bit later.  
  
The last one, I would say, is predominantly... again, not in all cases, but historically, why I moved to this direction and away from a dispensational understanding of Scripture is the idea of sanctification being either synergistic—the work that we do—or monergistic—the work that God does. Historically speaking, dispensationalism is a very synergistic movement. There are some who would promote a monergistic perspective, but historically speaking, and the way I was taught in seminary and growing up is that your progress in the Christian life, or how you become more like Christ, is dependent upon your own efforts. It's not primarily your efforts. It's like Christ is working in you and you're working. So they aren't saying all the sanctification is all your work. That would be unfair.  
  
Justin Perdue: Sanctifying yourself in your own strength—of course not. They're going to acknowledge the grace of God and the work of God, but it is very much an understanding that we need to do our part, and that we need to cooperate with the grace of God in our sanctification. Whereas for us, from a more Reformed perspective, we are unashamed in saying that we understand rather than synergism—two workers—we understand that there's one worker, monergism, in terms of our understanding of sanctification. And that one worker, of course, is God.  
  
Basically, to put it bluntly, the Holy Spirit sanctifies us. We, in no part, in no way do the work of sanctification. Now, we participate in our sanctification because we are alive now. We have been given spiritual life in Christ. We have been raised to walk in newness of life in him and thereby by the virtue of being alive, we participate, but we do not do the work.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think another way of saying that is we observe. Like we can observe the work of sanctification in our lives. Paul gives us ways in which we see that the way in which we are growing in the knowledge and the maturity of Christ, and the trust of Christ, and an increase of grace and mercy towards each other, and love and affection towards each other. Those are all the works of the Holy Spirit in sanctification. A lot of times when I heard... and again, this is not of all dispensations, but the breed I came from, sanctification was you didn't cuss, you stopped drinking, and you stopped going to movies, and you're being sanctified. That's just moral action change and some of it is not even wrong.  
  
Justin Perdue: Yeah. And what I mean in using that word "participate", just like I would say that every human being who is alive participates in life because he or she is alive. And that's all I'm saying; we participate in our sanctification because we are now alive, and yet God works and God is the only one who can change the heart, and God is the only one who can conform us into the likeness and image of His Son. And He is faithful to do it. And He has promised us that it will happen, and that we will be sanctified in this life and we will be fully sanctified at the point of the resurrection, and we can bank on that. It's not in jeopardy.  
  
Not only that synergism-monergism piece, but also something that we're going to emphasize heavily from a Reformed perspective is how it is that we ordinarily grow in the Christian life. And that would be, for us, an understanding of the ordinary means of grace. And so those ordinary means, just to be very clear, most prominently are the Word of God, sacrament, and prayer. And then some would maybe even add in song in the midst of the gathered church as well, as we're built up and edified in that way. But the church gathered, the saints assembled together to sit under Word, to partake of the sacraments of the Lord's Supper, baptism, to pray, and sing. That's how we understand that we are ordinarily and primarily grown in the faith. And that emphasis is somewhat unique.  
  
Now a dispensationalist is not going to disagree with any of those things. But it's going to really be about the emphasis and what is put first.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Historically, the Reformed have seen our sanctification in Christ. The protection of the believer, the growth of the believer, and the confession of the believer are primarily from the New Testament given to the local church. So we are to not forsake the assembling of ourselves, that we are to function properly so we build ourselves up in love to maturity in Christ, to the full knowledge of Christ, so that no one is tossed about by every wind of doctrine. This is given to us in Hebrews 10 and Ephesians 4\. You are given these primary means. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." So there's a heavy emphasis on God's Word, the gathered people, the sacraments—those are not to be done individually. You aren't to take the Lord's Table by yourself. You aren't to be baptizing by yourself.  
  
Justin Perdue: 1 Corinthians 10, 1 Corinthians 11, etc.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Exactly. Even the concept of prayer. Majority of the Bible speaks of prayer in a corporate reality, there is obviously an individual aspect of it, but if you're going to weigh it, it is a primary means of a corporate gathering so that we are building each other up, we're carrying each other's burdens, James 3, we're confessing our sins to one another. So the ordinary way in which God grows His people is within the local assembly through the ordinary means. Dispensationalism traditionally has emphasized spiritual disciplines, and I would even say the priesthood of all believers, which is something we absolutely say, amen, our faith is not tied to a priest, but we are tied to Christ, the ultimate priest.  
  
Justin Perdue: There is one mediator between God and man.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. But that doesn't mean now that your sanctification is primarily in your hands because it's between you, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible. That's an individualistic understanding. It's something that I wouldn't say all dispensationalists hold to, but predominantly—this is why I walked away from them—because they don't promote, they do not emphasize the ordinary means. It's not their primary means of spiritual growth; primary means of spiritual growth for them is individual efforts in pursuit of the Lord.  
  
Justin Perdue: One last observation and this is not a huge thing. Even the language that we'll use about the ordinary means and the terminology, some of that is a little different. I know, at least in my experience, dispensationalists would be very uncomfortable with the word "sacraments", and to describe the table and baptism. I guess in the minds of many, it's associated with Roman Catholicism, and it may be for them part and parcel of a sacerdotal theology where we would understand that the sacraments just operate on their own. And that is not at all what we mean, though I do think in our framework, we have a very high view of the sacraments as a means of grace, where God is present and is really there to bless, sustain, and nourish us through the table and through baptism as well. And it's His testimony to us of what He's going to do. So that's a big thing, too, even as just a small subset of that ordinary means conversation.  
  
We have bumped up against our time cap here. Hopefully some of the things that we said were of use for you in clarifying things. Hopefully you can see some of the high level differences that would exist between a Reformed confessional understanding and a dispensational view.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So this is brand new; our first initial announcement on the podcast. We record multiple weeks out in advance, so sometimes we're behind on stuff, but we have a new ministry. It's a new part of Theocast called Semper Reformanda—always reforming. Semper Reformanda is our new way for you to join in on two things. First of all, we have a brand new podcast called the Semper Reformanda podcast. We're going in that next. This is high level conversations where we take what we introduced to you in this podcast, and we're going to go a little bit deeper and more technical. Secondly, that podcast is designed to go along with a brand new program called SR groups, Semper Reformanda groups, where you can now sign up. We are developing these groups right now, but you can sign up for a local group in your city that you can go to and now have discussions on this very subject with other people who are having the same question. So we will provide discussion questions and you can download our app, which should be available now. You can go down to the Apple store, look for the Semper Reformanda app, you can download that and then sign up for a local group. In order to do that, you have to be an SR member. If you want to be an SR member, just go to sr.wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and you can learn more about that. That's it.  
  
Justin Perdue: And even in the SR podcast, which is where we're going, the Semper Reformanda podcasts, even if we don't get more technical in every aspect of it, we certainly will be a little bit more transparent and it's a little more of a safe space and family time. We hope that that podcast has that kind of feel. If that sounds interesting to you, then go to our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com, and you would learn anything that you need to know about becoming a part of Semper Reformanda and joining the Reformation there.  
  
All right, Jon. Here we go. We're going to see what we can give to people over there in our new SR podcast. We'll talk to many of you over there. We'll talk with the rest of you again next week.

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### Struggling with the Church

*Published: April 14, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/struggling-with-the-church*
*Tags: Church*

Many people struggle with the church. We go and it feels plastic. Inauthentic. Or it seems like the church is full of people who understand themselves to be crushing it. And so, it doesn't seem there is a place for the weak or miserable sinner. As a result, many people are disenchanted with the church. Where did all this come from? Is there something better?  
  
Semper Reformanda Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about the corporate nature of everything in the life of the church. We survey Ephesians 4 and consider the language of the Scripture and the ordinary means of grace.  
  
Resources:
* [Our podcast on Triumphalism](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/triumphalism/)
* [Our podcast on Theology of the Cross](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-is-the-theology-of-glory-vs-the-theology-of-the-cross/)
* ["Ordinary" by Michael Horton](https://amzn.to/3mMa5Rm)
**[Semper Reformanda Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/struggling-with-the-church-sr/)**  
  
https://youtu.be/Xo-c88UFhxc  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we are talking about the struggle with the modern church. If you've walked in and you feel like it's plastic, it's cold, you feel disconnected, you look around and you feel like an alien, we want to talk about that and why we have those struggles. Stay tuned.  
  
Today is a conversation that you and I seem to have almost every week. We are trying to shepherd people that are coming into our context in our church and help them, I would say, find out what it looks like to find not only rest in Christ, but truly rest within the community of Christ, which is the design of God. Jesus died for the church and Paul dedicated his life for the church, and I think the entire New Testament is focused and centered on what the local New Testament church looks like in a fallen, sinful world. How does the gospel go forward in our context and in the world?  
  
Justin and I grew up in very different backgrounds; his was more of a liberal Baptist background, mine was more of a fundamentalist background. As we have grown in our theology, and as pastors, we have been able to look at history and we are making assessments about the Christian life and church that are way off. You move 1% off of a line and you start walking that line for many years and before you know it, you're miles off the mark—and we are definitely miles off the mark.  
  
What Justin and I wanted to do today is help you think through your feelings, your observations, your conclusions, and I would even say comparisons to Scripture and the local context of the church. I know there's a broad range of churches that are out there, but I will say, what we're talking about today has impacted almost every single denomination that's out there. That is why we wanted to have a conversation about what happened to the church and why most people struggle with the church and why most books about the Christian life have nothing to say about the church, or what they do have to say about the church is very foreign to something like Ephesians 4\. That's what we're going to talk about today: the struggle with the modern church, what we see, and hopefully put some words to your own thoughts about your feelings about the local church.  
  
To open it up there, let's talk about when we look at the modern church, what is wrong with this context? How is it that we have got to this place? When you walk into a modern, broad evangelical church, almost an Nevin denomination—describe it to me.  
  
Justin Perdue: So many thoughts running around in my head right now. I just want to affirm everything you said and state from the outset that one of the things that I aim to do as a pastor, second only to helping people understand their need for Christ, is to help people understand their need for the church—and in one sense, to help people understand how those two things go together, how we need Christ and we need each other. It's just not a common notion in our current church context.  
  
There are a million reasons why books written today about the church and the Christian life don't have the church in them. One of the reasons for that is this conversation we're having today because so many people have had terrible experiences in the church. They are disenchanted with the church. They feel jaded and burned by the church, and have never seen anything legitimate or anything that seems to have any merit in their entire life in their experience of going to church. We want to unpack some of that today and have an honest conversation about some of our own experiences, and hopefully, as you said, put words to the thoughts that many have had.  
  
I grew up in a more liberal environment theologically, but the culture of the church that I grew up in was still moralistic. It was this combination of an aversion to doctrine—because all that does is divide and it binds us and it's bad—but then the emphasis was always just on you being a good person, doing the right stuff, and not doing the bad stuff. It was a very, very confused and difficult situation. I grew up thinking that Jesus was legit and knowing that he was the real deal. There was something about him that I couldn't walk away from. But everything else about the Christian life that I had been presented with and everything that I had ever seen in the church- it was whack. I was incredibly disenchanted with the church as an institution, and even Christianity as a religion, in light of everything that I had seen.  
  
I think for sure, one of the things that stands out for many people is the fact that the church feels and seems to be very superficial, that there is no real admission of real grievous heinous, damnable sins.  
  
Or real struggles.  
  
Right. And we may get there in a minute. There's no place for the weak.  
  
People seem to be very hesitant to admit the very dark things that go on in everybody's mind and heart. We know they're there, but we don't ever talk about them. You're happy to admit that you struggle with pride, or maybe that you worry a lot, but you're not really happy to talk about things that are much maybe darker and more sinister that are going on inside of you. There seems to be, alongside this, a lack of an awareness of sin at the same time. People seem to think that they're doing a lot better than they are. There's all this talk about all the things that we need to be doing and the things that we shouldn't be doing, and it's just almost full blown works righteousness sometimes in terms of the way that it's presented. You look around and everybody seems happy to listen to that kind of talk, and your conclusion is everybody else is crushing it because nobody seems disturbed by the fact that we're just being told things that we need to do, and things that we need to refrain from doing, as though that's going to earn us righteousness before the Lord. I guess all these people are doing well, but I know I'm not. You're sitting there thinking, "I must be the only unrighteous hypocrite of this whole bunch. Clearly this place isn't for me because apparently, these people have it all together. They look put together, they're saying the right stuff, they seem to understand themselves to just be doing well. Every time they pull the lever, it's trip sevens. I'm over here floundering and struggling with my own conscience and I've blown it countless times this week, and if this is Christianity, then either Christianity is a sham or it didn't work for me. Our conclusion is: I'm going to go elsewhere because the church has nothing for a sinner like me.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It can also become personality-driven. Those who have an outgoing, energetic, bubbly personality seem to be the ones that are always the active, good Christians, and those who are tend to be quiet, introspective, or even melancholy can be the ones who aren't the good Christians. It's a divide. This is true of not just one denomination; we're not even going to pick on a denomination because we're going to explain how this really has influenced a lot. It has just changed the way the structure and the purpose of the church is supposed to be.  
  
You walk into a context of a church and the conversations are not on a familiar level, like the way you would talk to your brother or sister or your wife. They are on a very superficial level: how was your day? How was your week? When there is a small group, the community groups tend to be social groups where you talk about social stuff; you're not talking about the muck of the Christian life. Their prayer requests are about needing to pray more, or struggling with this, or struggling with pride, or needing a new job. What's really crushing you, what's going on, and the depression—that is not allowed. I've had a man in my church recently who talked about expressing some serious issues in his life in a men's group, and they all looked at him like he was crazy. Or they'll just say, "You need to read your Bible more and you need to pray." That's it. That's the solution.  
  
People don't share because if the response to everything is to read your Bible and to pray more, then why should I even tell you I'm struggling? I already know the answer you're going to give me, so I'm just not going to say anything. That way I won't be judged and I won't feel guilty about my own struggles.  
  
Justin Perdue: What you're describing is a lack of legitimate community. There's a lot of language about community, and you might even have groups that bear that name, but to your point, there's no real admission of weakness, there's no real confession of sin where we are legitimately baring our souls and talking about what's really going on. We all speak in this very calculated language, because like you said, we have either experienced this in the past, or we've seen it happen to other people where they do confess legitimate sin and legitimate struggle, and they are shamed, judged, or run out of town on a rail. And we leave that thinking, "I'm never going to do that again." Or, "I saw what happened to that person. I'm never going to do that because it just did not go well."  
  
In addition to that, I think that many of us have been in church contexts where we look around and we listen to what's being said. The way the whole thing is presented to us, it's like this whole project is about constant improvement. This whole project is about onward and upward, and we are always getting better, everything is always exciting, every Sunday is literally better than the one before. We look at that and we think, "Uh, that's not how my life works." This feels like a lot of hot air and a lot of hype. A lot of sunshine is being pumped at me, but this just doesn't feel legitimate. It doesn't feel authentic. The way that we could end up coming away from that, aside from it just feeling fake, is because the presentation is one of we're always getting better, we're always improving, we are conquerors and we are triumphant, we are the people who are having victory over sin and struggle and weakness and the like, we conclude that there is no place for the weak in the church. There's no place for the struggler in the church. There's no place, as I said a minute ago, for like the miserable sinner. For many people, especially the ones who have more tender consciences, for people who have proclivities and bends in their frame, or they struggle with melancholy, depression, anxiety, etc., people like that just ended up feeling like there is no place for them because they cannot keep up. The tender conscience in the room looks around and assesses what's going on, and then looks within and assesses his or her own heart and mind and thinks, "I have never done anything that's legitimate or adequate. I've never loved God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength. I've never loved my neighbor as myself. I've not done this as I should. I've failed to do that as I should." All of this improvement stuff , this constantly getting better stuff, and this constantly getting victory, the tender conscience is thinking, "Well, I'm a failure. I just don't fit here."  
  
Another thought. You're talking about a lack of authenticity and a lack of an ability to confess sin. I do think there are a lot of environments where people not only have been burned when they've confessed sin, but they receive horrible counsel when they have confessed things in their lives. I'm not even talking about reductionistic, somewhat absurd stuff like, "Read the Bible and I'm sure it'll be better next week." I'm talking about legitimate faults, where they've brought some deep issue, like a struggle with sexuality, or a marriage is falling apart and the husband and wife go and seek counsel and they're just told ridiculous things by pastors. "This is what's going to fix your marriage," and a particular person in the marriage leaves, thinking, "Well, that's the last time I'm ever going to trust a pastor after what I just heard."  
  
Jon Moffitt: The trust for the church definitely is not there. We understand that the Bible emphasizes the church, the church is good, but what we experience in the church is not what we feel is right. "Feeling" is a dangerous word to say, but it's within your soul; you feel this dry, cold distance, and yet you're yearning for this warm, compassionate connection to Christ in his body.  
  
When I was first married, I started to sell this insurance. We would go to these conferences, and so we're at this conference in Texas, and these people are making all this money and they're really talking to us about how we can make money. I'm trying to just get through college and I'm just trying to sell this insurance on the side so I can make money, and then they are hyping it up; it's bumping music, we're jumping, and we're clapping. Everything is high, high, high energy, and a ton of emotion. You walk out of there at the end of that conference, and there's one conclusion that is on your mind: everyone around me is successful, everyone around me is doing it, and if I want to do it, it's up to me. I walk out of there going, "All right. If I try harder, I become better, and I work longer, I can be like that." That is what church feels like: it's high energy, it's pumping, and the pastor basically tells you all of these amazing stories, and at the end you go, "All right. If I try harder this week, I can be like that."  
  
Justin Perdue: Ultimately, at the end of the day, it depends upon me. And. That can be presented in a number of ways: it can be in this quasi prosperity wave, and it also can be in this way where we're told that we need to be more disciplined and our lives will go better and we won't sin as much and all those things. It's like a smack on the backside: "Go out there and don't disappoint God." We leave ultimately discouraged, because again, we think, "Well, this clearly depends upon me, at least in some measure, and my life isn't going that well. I'm still struggling. I must be messing this up and God is displeased with me." We leave exhausted and not encouraged.  
  
A couple of other observations just really quickly for me; these are not related at all so I'm going to do the best that I can here. Another thing that I think is hard for people is that whenever they have raised concerns in the church, those concerns have been met with pride, defensiveness, and condescension, rather than humility, patience, grace, and charity. That's sad. I know you and I, Jon, have had this conversation offline many times about how we will fail in this because we're sinners too, but one of our chief aims as pastors in our respective churches is to meet the concerns of our people and even critiques that are raised. Or when somebody comes to us and they've been hurt by us or whatever it is, to aim to meet that with humility, charity, grace, and patience, rather than being proud and defensive.  
  
I think pride is only fuel. That flame of pride is only fanned and there's gas poured on that fire by a lot of the pietistic culture that exists in the church that tells you that you will be doing better if you are disciplined and if you apply yourself in these particular ways, and people think that their discipline, devotion, and dedication are what have gotten them to work where they are. I don't want to impugn on people's motivations, but I think they end up looking down upon others who are not doing as well as they are, and are just unable to hear from other people that may raise legitimate concerns before them.  
  
The last thing I want to say before we move forward in terms of struggles with the church is this: when we go to services, it seems that the entire thing, or at least most of it is aimed at the non-believer to try to bring the non-believer in. What that means is that the gospel, in particular the way of salvation—Christ for you, that is almost exclusively preached to the non-Christian in order to get them to make that decision to trust in Christ. But then when it comes to the Christian life and the day-to-day and the week-to-week, once I am in, all I'm getting is a bunch of instruction on how to live better, how to improve, five steps to this, here are things that you need to flee from, here are ways to be disciplined. I end up being exhausted by that because I'm not actually given Jesus in the service. I am, maybe at best, in a situation where Jesus is assumed: we all believe the gospel, but we're going to talk about how you should live today. Our experience of church is not one of rest, it's not one of being reminded that Christ is our righteousness, it's not one of being comforted in the Lord Jesus Christ and thereby being motivated to live out of love, joy, and gratitude. It's a culture that's driven by guilt, shame, fear, dread, and judgment for the believer. Christ is really only held out to somebody who is not yet believed.  
  
Nobody would ever say it this way... Steven Furtick did recently, but a lot of people go to churches where it's, "If you're a Christian, this church isn't for you. This church is for the non-believer. If you're in, we got nothing for you here. In some ways, we might almost do people a service if we were just as honest as Steven Furtick is and saying that this church, Elevation, doesn't exist for the Christian, this church just exists to bring people in because in many churches, that's how they function anyway. The Christians are sitting there starving and are sitting there discouraged and dry because they're not being given Jesus, who is their life, and apart from him, they can do nothing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The question then becomes, "How did we get here?" We're going to talk about what we think the biblical church looks like, as part of what this podcast is about—thinking things from a Reformed perspective—and we will get there eventually, but we want to talk about how we got here. Sometimes it's helpful to understand, deconstruct, and pull back the structure of a church—or the structure of anything—and ask, "Why was it built this way?" I would say the modern church has a patchwork of multi-theology that is not centered on a biblical theology. I think we're going to start with revivalism, we're definitely going to talk about the emergent church, and even the massive influence of the purpose-driven church by Rick Warren.  
  
Something we reference a lot, but I think it's important for you to understand... Justin, let's talk about revivalism a little bit. It's a response to court cold orthodoxy; you think that the church has lost its way, they call it the frozen chosen, the church is dying, and so you have men who want to revive the church and get them back excited. It is not based upon theology, it is not based upon a doctrine, definitely not based upon the history of the church. You have men who are coming in and they are going to preach passionate, fiery sermons to get people to repent. From revivalism, you have all kinds of new things introduced into the church, which is event-based theology, meaning that revivalism wasn't happening inside churches but it was happening inside tent meetings.  
  
Justin Perdue: It was happening outside the local gathering on the Lord's Day.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. They would go from town to town. It's where Billy Graham really got his wings—this idea of these massive events coming from town to town. You have to understand during revivalism, there was no entertainment: there was no radio, there was no TV. When you have someone publicly coming and speaking, and it's in the center of town and you can hear it, you're going to be drawn into that. This is where you start hearing about the anxious bench and sort of famous sawdust trail.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think concerns with revivalism are several; you've mentioned some of them. One is the relocation of the ministry of the Word: it's removed from the corporate gathering on the Lord's Day and it's taken outside of the regular assembly in a field or a tent meeting or something like that. There is a huge emphasis on conversion—making a decision for Christ—not that that's a bad thing to desire, but there is perhaps an off-centered emphasis, in any means necessary, to get those professions of faith and to see conversion happen. Then in addition to that, there's a huge emphasis on moral transformation, because there's always a concern with lax and apathetic living and lawlessness. That is a piece of revivalism.  
  
As you look back through the history of the church, the first and second Great Awakening are both revivalistic movements. The first one was better than the second in terms of the theology that was being preached. George Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards are preaching better doctrine in terms of the gospel and how people were saved than many in the second great awakening were, like Charles Finney and others. That's where new methods and all kinds of things were introduced into the church. Like you mentioned, the anxious bench, the altar call, and all of these kinds of things came about in the early to middle part of the 1800s as a result of that movement. It was worse than the first Great Awakening, for sure theologically, and this sounds scandalous to say, but the whole project of revivalism in our minds from our perspective—and this is again thinking about Scripture and thinking about the history of the church and the like—the whole project was skewed and off. The Lord brings revival; He's the one who does that and He's going to do it through the means that He has given us. He's going to do it through the ordinary means of grace that are a piece of the corporate reality of the gathered church on the Lord's Day when we gather for the preaching of the Word, the administration of the sacraments, for prayer and for song, and we trust Him to do his work there, rather than using these other more extraordinary measures to bring about what we say is a work of God.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It was performance-based theology. They were going after moral transformation, they were preaching against all kinds of things like gambling and drinking, they're trying to shut down bars, they're trying to shut down pool houses. There's a massive movement. You have men like Charles Finney, who basically said he could convince an entire room to come to be converted to Christ given enough time. He was a great salesman and he was a lawyer.  
  
Justin Perdue: He was a fiery preacher but his theology is so terrible. He would say that every time a Christian sins, he or she needs to be reconverted. This is how you preach fire and brimstone messages. It's not hard. If you're dealing with people who are legitimately converted, if you're dealing with regenerate people who are aware of their sin, it is not hard to convince them they're sinners. But when you tell them that every time they sin, they basically are now unsaved again, and what they need to do is come forward to the front, this is where a lot of this mess of not only coming forward for the altar call to profess faith, but this whole rededication of life and all this stuff—this is where it comes from.  
  
Absolutely. You have a deemphasizing of doctrine, creeds, and confession. These men were not trying to promote a theology based on church history that had been faithfully handed down to them. They were emphasizing the heart of it behind it, I'm thankful; they're emphasizing evangelism and preaching the gospel. But just because someone has good intentions doesn't mean that their actions and the way that fulfilled it is correct. I think a lot of the assessment of the men who were doing revivalistic preaching, they were assessing the local churches and what happened to the dead orthodoxy, and I would say they, too, lost their way. This is part of being a sinner. This is why there's so much warning in the New Testament about who should be elders, who should be teachers, and Paul's warning against those who are shepherding. But the response had such a ripple effect. The wave of this has influenced church history hugely. Millions of millions of churches and Christians around the world have been influenced by this revivalistic movement.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're going to move forward a little bit. Revivalism starts to take a shift and change where you're starting to see a deemphasizing of doctrine. Even theological schools are dying because men are not seeing the necessity of being well-trained in church history, in the languages, and in doctrine. All of a sudden, men who were performing well and know how to articulate themselves well, or are high energy—I would even say good salesmen—you start to see the shift. Where the shift, I think, in the '90s exploded is in the emergent church, which for a while was really hard to even pin down. What does the emergent church even mean?  
  
Justin Perdue: It's like a big tent.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Rob Bell is really big in this. You have Mark Driscoll coming out of it. The emergent church was dealing basically with postmodernism. What they are trying to fight against what they are really pushing back against is resonating with people in the early '90s , in the 2000s where you had cold, hard facts that were cold and distant from our culture. They wanted something that was more warm and inviting, subjectivity versus objectivity, or spirituality over religion. I can remember that. "I don't want a religion, I want a relationship." it's images versus word, or outward versus inward, feeling versus truth. You can go on. This is where the emergent church really drew in this younger crowd, and they created these massive communities, the people are excited, churches exploded. But as Justin had said, the entire experience came more about how do we draw in a bigger crowd and how do we draw it in and be relevant to the culture? It became all about relevancy. It did not become about faithfulness to the Word of God, allowing the Word of God to convict people of sin, leading to the hope of Christ in the gospel. It became more about how to help people have an experience of God, and the experience became the primary driver of what church looked like.  
  
Justin Perdue: One other piece of this in terms of how we got here... I'm going to use a few words and define them. The current church context and the things that we're describing today are in part a result of triumphalism, and that again is a way to describe this onward and upward, always improving dynamic. The current church context is a result of pietism, which is a hyper-focus on how we are doing on our affections for God, on our disciplines, our obedience and our performance. It's this very inward, very introspective posture that has certainly characterized the church. So you combine that with a triumphalistic perspective of always needing to get better, and then you're hyper introspective and always assessing yourself, your affections, your disciplines, and your obedience. That's a big piece of how we've gotten to where we are.  
  
Then in addition to that, all of this—the triumphalistic and the pietistic stuff—is a part of a larger theology of glory, which is again, "We're strong, we're getting better, we're getting victory," and all of that versus what has historically been understood as a theology of the cross that says that we are in fact weak still. Yes, Christ is strong, but we are not; we are weak, we are needy, and that is where the grace and mercy of Christ is made manifest and obvious as he meets us in our need and our weakness. Right now, not only will we be weak, we will suffer, but there is a glory that awaits us. That kind of theology has just gone by the wayside in most churches today, which is what has resulted in something that we were describing earlier where there's just no place for the struggler, there's no place for the weak, there's no place even for the sinner—certainly not the miserable sinner, as Augustine would have called us. Augustine was lambasted for propagating what many called a miserable sinner version of Christianity. If we're going to be lumped in with him, I guess guilty as charged; we are miserable sinners and Christ is our only hope. But that's not what's been heralded to many of us in our church experience and it's left many of us jaded and disenchanted, and feeling like the church just clearly is not for us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To Justin's point, if you're new to Theocast, two really important subjects that we cover a lot; in our description in our podcast, there'll be links to a podcast for both of those—we did one on the theology of the cross versus the theology of glory, and triumphalism.  
  
One of the things I do want to mention and the impact of it: I grew up about an hour away from this church, Saddleback. Rick Warren wrote a book in the mid-nineties called _The Purpose Driven Church_, which is based off of _The Purpose Driven Life_. I don't know if people understand the influence and impact of that book, but that book is listed in the top 100 Christian books that have changed the century. In many ways, people understand the church in general shifted because of what he wrote. If you read the book about what the purpose of the church is, this is the thing that we are battling today in more ways than I've ever seen. Justin and I used to shake our heads constantly when we're thinking about all of the purposes of the church. What is the purpose of the church? You can think about it: it's social justice, or it's race, or it's dealing with gender equality. There's so much that is driven. When you think about what Jesus handed to us as our primary focus—what drives us, our purpose—and you look at the history of what the church has been driving from revivalism, to the emerging church, to the purpose driven church, you're not handed, what we are going to argue, is what the Reformed tradition has been holding to and what we think is the accurate explanation of Scripture—which is we're going to go now—of the explanation of what the purpose of the church is, the design of the church, and what you should experience in a church.  
  
Justin Perdue: In short, the church is about Jesus and the people who need him. The church obviously is centered around and built upon Jesus Christ and what he has done for us. He's the cornerstone; he's the stone off of which every other stone is oriented in terms of the building of the household of God, and he is the one who bears the weight. He is the one who has accomplished everything that we need. We begin with Christ. We emphasize what he has done for us that we received by faith. This work of Christ stands outside of us. It's _extra nos_. We're always looking to him for our righteousness, for our forgiveness, and our absolution. We are absolved of guilt because of what Jesus has done. We herald that message.  
  
Alongside that, not only do we need Christ, but it's very clear in the New Testament that we need each other. The way that Christ has instituted the church and designed the church is one. It's a design where we together, as we have all been united to Christ and then are united to each other, thereby we live life together with our various gifts and we together build one another up in love unto maturity in Christ. That's going to happen in a corporate setting, not when we're by ourselves; that's going to happen when we're with the saints, not when we're alone. We will grow together or not at all—that's very obvious in the letters of the New Testament.  
  
One of the things that we emphasize regularly is the gathered church. We need to understand that the New Testament epistles are all written to congregations, or they are written to pastors with the congregation in view ala 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus. Thereby, the exhortations in the New Testament are practically all corporate in nature. The use in the New Testament are plural and the exhortations are to people, groups of Christians, who are living life together. We sadly often just rip those from their context and assume that they're all individual exhortations, but they're not.  
  
The church gathered is a reality that the New Testament upholds all the time. The exhortations about the word of God, or about the sacraments, or about prayer, singing, or any of that, are to take place within the context of the gathered body when we're assembled. That's what the Reformed have always historically referred to as the ordinary means of grace. The way that we're grown in the faith primarily is by gathering with each other and then partaking of these means of the Word and the Lord's Table, baptism, prayer, and the like. God uses that over the course of a lifetime to do things that we could never have imagined that He would do in our lives.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to mention several verses that are not emphasized. You're not going to hear a lot of sermons on these. These are not verses people memorize but these are what I would call verses that the New Testament writers use to structure what life looks like after conversion. When you are adopted into the family, what does family life look like in the house of God? I can tell you what family life looks like in the house of Moffitt, and we have ways in which we function, we gather, and how we care for each other. My family doesn't live independent of each other. It's not like we pass each other in the hall and say, "How's your day going?" That's not how we work in the Moffitt house.  
  
In God's house, He's very clear in what He wants. I'm not angry at the modern church. I'm not mad at the church. My heart is broken because what God has given us, we seem to have abandoned. So many people are drowning in their own despair, and they're so lonely, and they're so exhausted by sin.  
  
Listen to some of these instructions that God gives the writers in the New Testament to help us understand. We'll start with James: when James says confess your sins to one another. I mention this every Sunday from my pulpit. I say, "Listen, we want to take the Word of God seriously, and James says to confess our sins to one another. Why would we do that? Because what's the fastest way to create a quality within a group of humans? Have everybody admit that they have all failed." That's immediate quality. I don't care what gender you are, I don't care what race you are, I don't care what income you have—you're in equal need of God's grace. How do we know that? Because we confess our failures.  
  
But here's another thing: we do not see dependence on the local church. We see dependence on our efforts and ourselves, but listen to how the writer of Hebrews says this. For instance, he says, "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you." We don't hear this explained, preached, and really put out there as a protection and a place of rest saying, "Hey, listen, rightly trained elders and selected elders are there for your benefit."  
  
Justin Perdue: Staying in the book of Hebrews, because I know we're going to save Ephesians 10:19 and following. I'm not going to read all of it, but the writer says that because of Christ and the access we have to God, and the confidence that we have before God, because of what Jesus has done, he says, "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." Those few verses are just dripping with corporate language. Let us consider how we can stir one another up to love and good works. Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope because God Is faithful. Let's not neglect to meet together. Let's assemble.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Even to that point earlier in chapter three, verse 13, "But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called 'today', that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin."  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. There are so many other passages that we could go to. We're running a little bit short on time. One last comment that I do want to make, before we move over to the members' portion of the podcast, is that as we—in the context of the church, in the context of legitimate community, as the gospel is preached and heralded faithfully week after week and we all understand who Christ is for us and what he did for us—what that produces is a culture in the church where honesty is the order of the day. We are confessing our failures and our shortcomings, and it's actually safe to talk about the things that are really going on in our minds and hearts, because nobody's going to be shocked. We have a robust enough understanding of sin that we understand that we all do things, think things, and desire things that are evil. We understand that our own performance is not where our standing before the Lord lies so we can encourage each other in the faithfulness of God to us in Christ. The gospel creates this authentic community where these things are taking place. I think that's what all of us are starving for. I know that by the Lord's grace, Jon, that's what you and I—along with our other elders in our churches, and our people—we together are aiming to see those kinds of things happen at Grace Reformed Church and at Covenant Baptist Church. We pray that they will and will continue to.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I have a lot more to say but we're running out of time. Let's go ahead and move over to our members' podcast, which will be changing very soon. Stay tuned for that. We have a whole new ministry coming out which will allow you to take this conversation that Justin and I just had, gather with other listeners, and discuss all of your questions and encourage one another locally and online. Stay tuned for Semper Reformanda. It's coming your way. We're excited to launch that.  
  
But we do need to have a further conversation on what the local church looks like. We're going to need to do that. If you want to know more about that, you can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and you can learn more about one, how to support Theocast, and two, to join in on this conversation that we're having about continuing the Reformation, helping the church go back to its roots, focusing in on Christ and each other.  
  
We'll see you over there. For those of you who are listening, we'll see you next time.

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### Jesus, Gentle and Lowly

*Published: April 7, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/jesus-gentle-and-lowly*
*Tags: Rest*

What is the posture of Jesus toward those who trust him? In Matthew 11, Jesus invites the weary to come to him that they might find rest. He says he is gentle and lowly in heart. Is that how you have heard Jesus presented? Or have you been told that he is harsh, exacting, and probably disappointed in you?  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about the patience, mercy, and gentleness of Christ--and how much we all need to be reminded of that. The guys also discuss self-righteousness and confusion of law and gospel in the pulpit.  
  
Scripture References:  
Isaiah 42:3; 61:1  
Matthew 11:25-30  
Luke 7:36-50; 15:1-35; 18:9-14  
2 Corinthians 10:1  
Ephesians 4:1-4; 5:1-2  
Hebrews 7:25  
1 John 2:1-2  
  
Resources:  
["The Bruised Reed" by Richard Sibbes](https://amzn.to/3mpvWxH)  
["Gentle and Lowly" by Dane Ortlund](https://amzn.to/3wzpGrE)  
  
[Members' Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-jesus-gentle-and-lowly/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIv6ndu4SF0  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we're going to be talking about Jesus, and in particular, we're going to be talking about the posture of Jesus toward his own. In Matthew 11, Jesus invites the weary to come to him and says that he is gentle and lowly in heart. But is that how you have thought about Jesus? Is that how you've heard him presented? Or have you heard Jesus presented as something that is frightening, scary, and unsafe? That he is just waiting to drop the hammer on you and is exacting toward his own? If you have, this podcast is for you today, we're going to consider the love, the patience, the mercy of Jesus in both the regular and the members' episodes. We hope this is encouraging for you. Stay tuned.  
  
We're going to be talking about Jesus today, and in a particular way, we're going to be talking about the nature of Christ, the posture of Jesus, in particular, toward his own.  
  
We are going to be talking about that subject matter because in evangelicalism broadly, there seems to be, at best, a confusing picture painted of the Lord Jesus in terms of his posture toward us and at times almost a conflicting message that is presented to us where Jesus feels all kinds of ways about us, and a number of those ways are not great and they are frightening.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Can I even say, without trying to be sacrilegious, it comes across as if Jesus is bipolar. It's like at one moment, he's one way, to the same people, he's a completely different way. How can that be?  
  
Justin Perdue: I understand what you mean in terms of not wanting to come across as sacrilegious. I just want to clarify. I think what you're saying is true in that Jesus is depicted that way—that one moment he is gentle, he's tender, he's compassionate, and the next moment he is threatening, scary, exacting, and is causing us to question whether or not we're in him at all, or if anybody ever could be.  
  
Obviously, the ministry here at Theocast is characterized by us helping one another, frankly, and also helping those who might ever listen to us to rest in Christ because we are all weary pilgrims as we are making our way as sojourners and exiles in this wasteland called fallen earth. We're all pilgrims on the way to the Celestial City, and we are weary because of living life in a fallen world, because we too are still fallen, and battle our sin and struggle in all kinds of ways. It matters very much how we understand our Lord and Savior to relate to us. It matters very much especially in those moments where we're low and down and not doing well. How is it that Jesus feels about me? How does Jesus think about me? What's his posture toward me? Is it disappointment, anger, and wrath? Is his MO one of unsettling me and scaring me into zeal, passion, and discipline or is it something else? That question is huge.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's the thing that drives you either towards Christ and affection or drives you away from him. I think a lot of the coldness that people feel, this distance, is because they have been handed a Jesus that is exacting, that is harsh, that requires you to be on your game, to be the dedicated people who have figured out how to discipline their life in such a way that it reflects the very nature of Jesus. We're going to get into this in a minute, but we use law passages that are meant to crush you, we use them to motivate us to draw near to Christ. We're going to make the argument that what draws us near to Jesus is not the law of Christ, but what draws us near to Christ is his mercy, his grace, his gentleness, his kindness, and his love.  
  
Justin Perdue: His love, his patience—all of those things.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The kindness of God is what's supposed to lead us to repentance. But what happens is, and I know that you and I have both experienced this style of Christianity within the modern, and I would say, conservative evangelical world, the Calvinistic world, and even parts of the Reformed world, Jesus is used as a whipping post. You take him and you just beat people over the head with, "Well, this is what Jesus is requiring of you and you're not doing it. How dare you say you're a Christian? How do you not question your salvation if you aren't living up to Jesus expectations of...?" Then whatever you want to put in there, whether it's forsaking all wealth, your affections, your time, your dedication, evangelism. Then Jesus is presented to you as one that requires, I would say, not the complete law because no one could do that, and they would say no one is saved by the law, but a lesser view of the law. It's not a full debt. I think you said it well in a podcast a few weeks ago: it's not that they're expecting you to be perfect, but you at least need to have the desire to be perfect. When you can't make it, when you're not there, you look at Jesus not as one to adore, but you look at him and you wonder how you could even ever consider yourself to be a part of his family because you can't live up to the expectations he's put upon you.  
  
Justin Perdue: Maybe a quick caveat out of the gate, before I say what I'm about to and launch us into this conversation, is in everything that we're about to say, in no way are we contradicting the idea that we would reverence the Lord Jesus Christ. Not to bury the lead here, but to understand that he is gentle, lowly, patient, and kind, that he loves us and that he delights to show grace and mercy to sinners who know they need him is in no way contradictory with the fact that he is the Lord of all creation and that we reverence him, and that we reverence God, meaning that we understand who the Lord is and what He requires because He has revealed it to us in his holy law and we understand that for every law breaker, the wrath of God rightly comes upon him or her. So, of course, we revere the Lord in that way; we fear Him in that biblical sense of that word, that word "fear" meaning to reverence and to be in awe. Of course we are. Part of what makes God so worthy of that is the fact that He is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, and that He delights to show that, and He delights to forgive iniquity, transgressions, and sins—and He has done that in the person and work of God the Son made flesh whose name is Jesus.  
  
Now, we're going to talk about him. I know I need this conversation regularly in my own Christian life. I know you feel the same, brother, and I trust there are thousands and thousands of people out there who will listen to this who need this as well.  
  
Let's start by doing a little bit of, as we like to phrase it, deconstruction—to diagnose what's going on out there that produces this kind of confusion with respect to Jesus and his posture toward us. We're in him. We talk a decent amount on this podcast about the distinction between law and gospel, and how important that is that we rightly divide those two things. That manifests itself in a whole host of ways, but pertinent to our conversation today, there is a ton of confusion in evangelicalism broadly, and maybe even more specifically, as you alluded to a minute ago, the Calvinistic evangelical world. I say this humbly but unashamedly: there is a failure to rightly distinguish between law and gospel when it comes to the speaking, the teaching, and the discourses of Jesus Christ; the words that come out of his mouth as recorded in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. A lot of people out there assume that if Jesus said it, that it must be gospel somehow. If it's a red letter, it must be gospel.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I have to be careful, and you need to understand some of the titles that are presented in the Bible are not biblical—the books didn't necessarily have titles to them. " The Gospel of John" is misleading; it should be "The Life and Times of Jesus Written by John". Because not everything in John's letter is gospel.  
  
Justin Perdue: Some of what Jesus says is gospel; most of what Jesus preaches and teaches is law. Everything that Jesus came to do in our place that we never could is gospel. So his perfect life, his righteousness that's counted to us by faith—that's gospel. His passive obedience, his suffering, bearing the penalty of the law in the place of those of us who have broken it, bearing the wrath of God for our transgression and iniquity—that's gospel. His triumphant resurrection that vindicated all of his work, but also secured our bodily resurrection—that's gospel.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Another way to almost reword gospel is that it's the reward of the works of Christ. We are being rewarded what Christ has done. It's tricky when you're using illustrations, but you and I would not describe the playing of a football game, the middle of the game, as the actual reward. No, the reward, the win comes at the end. If you mix those two, which ends up happening, gospel means we are receiving what Christ has done, but somehow gospel means, no, it's what Christ has done and what you do, too.  
  
Justin Perdue: The gospel is the message. It's the news of what Christ has done. That results in the salvation of the elect, the salvation of all the saints, because of Christ and because of him alone. That's the good news. The good news, as we've talked about recently, actually contains nothing within it that we are to do.  
  
The issue at hand here is that when you collapse law and gospel, and when you don't distinguish between law and gospel as Jesus is speaking and teaching it and interacting with people, then what you end up doing is giving and painting this very confusing picture of Christ. When Jesus encounters people who are self-righteous, when he encounters people who are trusting in themselves, either that they are righteous or that they can become or achieve that righteousness, he meets that with an exacting posture, he meets that with even a threatening and unsettling posture, and he speaks law into those situations and to those people. His aim is to unsettle every person who understands that he or she is well, to unsettle every person that understands that he is righteous. He is aiming to crush people with the law that they might see who they are rightly, and then be driven to their only hope, who is Christ himself. That's his mission. And that's what he's trying to achieve.  
  
Again, not to bury the lead: every time Jesus encounters a person in the gospels, every time he encounters a person who is aware of his or her need, who understands that he or she is sick, unrighteous, has no merit, and are desperate, every time he encounters such a person, he greets them and meets that with compassion, gentleness, tenderness, and he forgives their sins.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's what he even says: "Those who have ears to hear, let them hear." When Jesus is talking to those Pharisees, they want Jesus to be the victorious King, and Jesus is like, "No, I'm here to save you. Unless you see me as that, then you cannot be saved."  
  
Real quick, I want to take us to Matthew 11\. This is a great point, Justin, what you just made. Jesus is having a conversation with this crowd of Pharisees. He's dialoguing with them about the nature of himself, what he is here for, and how it is that he is going to save sinners, but they don't see themselves as sinners. In the midst of this conversation, he just starts praying. Matthew says he's praying publicly out loud in front of these Pharisees. "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children."  
  
Justin Perdue: It's dripping with irony.  
  
Jon Moffitt: These people are not looking at Jesus with affection at this moment after he says this. They're clenching their fists even more. They're even more upset.  
  
Justin Perdue: Because he's praying a prayer in their midst that indites them.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In their culture, children are a thing to be shunned, they're to be quiet, they're to be put off in the background.  
  
Justin Perdue: They represent foolishness and neediness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's exactly right. Jesus is saying that the Father of heaven has revealed it to the needy and foolish, but to you who think you're wise, he's hidden it from you. "Yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." You have here Jesus saying that if you're going to know the Father, it can only happen through him, and if you want to know Him, then Jesus is going to be the one that reveals it to you, and you who are self-righteous and you who see no need of Jesus, you're going to be blind to it.  
  
Now it's almost like he speaks past over the shoulders of the people he's talking to and onto those in the background who are too afraid to stand up front because they're not as righteous as the Sadducees and the Pharisees. Jesus looks past them and says, "Come to me, all you who labor and are heavy laden." Labor under what? He just got done talking about those who are self-righteous under the law, a law that really isn't the Moses Law; it's their law. Then he says "heavy laden"—you could feel the weight of your sin under that. Then, I love this: "And I will give you rest." Then he says, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."  
  
What's interesting is that Jesus doesn't speak of himself, as far as his nature is concerned; he speaks of the Father's will, the relationship to the Father, the relationship of, "I am the door", "I'm the way", "I'm the light", "I'm the living water". But here he is calling those who are feeling, I would say, trashed by the law; their sins are just weighing them down. What does Jesus use to entice them to come down? Is it fear? Is it dread? Is it the future of God coming and throwing them into some kind of a... No, he says, "Come to me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart," which is contrasting the Pharisees; they are harsh and they are not lowly in heart.  
  
Justin Perdue: Jesus, over and over again, is clear that he has nothing for people who understand that they're doing well with respect to the law. He'll even say, "I didn't come to call the righteous, I came to call sinners. I didn't come for those who are well, I came for those who are sick." Now, he's not saying that there are those who are righteous in and of themselves. He's not saying that there are any fallen human beings who aren't sick. His point is, "I came for those who know they are in need." I agree with your point that the Pharisees had, if anything, just added to that burden by putting the hedge around the law. Not only was there the Mosaic Law and everything that it contained, there was even more piled on top of it. So Christ is speaking to people who have been crushed by that, who are quite literally being buried under that burden that they can't carry—and they know they can't. He says to those people, "Come to me. You're weary, you're exhausted, you're way down. Come to me. That burden that's on you that's impossible for you to bear, I'll carry that for you." The reason that he can say, "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart," is because Jesus has taken the yoke of the law upon himself for us and has fulfilled it; he has carried that load and then he invites us to come to him, and he gives us a very different yoke, a very different burden that he says is easy and light. We'll probably talk about what that is here in a minute.  
  
This is a word to the weary struggler, to the person who knows deep in his or her heart that they're not meeting the standard and they're grieved by it, they're exhausted, they can't do it. And it's effectively the tax collector from Luke 18\. It's the beating your chest, not looking up to heaven, saying, "God, have mercy on me because I'm a sinner." That's who this is to. And look at the posture of our Lord towards us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I always find comfort when you look at Peter, Paul, and James, and they reflect on Christ. They, in many ways, interpret the gospels. You have to understand that sometimes we think that the way that the New Testament was written was from Matthew forward. Actually, the gospels come a lot later. For instance, Corinthians was written before the gospel. There are a lot of people who don't know this.  
  
Justin Perdue: Galatians is probably the earliest piece of writing in the New Testament.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Exactly. I think it's James that's close by. Paul describes Jesus and he says, "I, Paul, myself entreat you, by the meekness and gentleness of Christ." If someone wants to say, "Jon, you guys are misrepresenting Christ here in Matthew and you are not interpreting that correctly." I'm interpreting it the way Paul does because he says he's entreating them. He's calling them to repentance. He's begging them with what? The meekness and gentleness of Christ. I look at that and I go, "That makes sense."  
  
Justin Perdue: Here's another one: "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life." Paul's word there in 1 Timothy 1:15-16 is, "I am the foremost of sinners." In other words, nobody's a worse sinner than me and Jesus Christ has been gracious and patient with me so that you might know that he will be the same way with you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Recently people are increasingly getting confused by rest and not taking sin seriously. There is no way under heaven and hell that Jesus is saying, "Come on to me and don't worry about your sin." That's not what he's saying. He is saying, "Come to me and I'm going to free you from your sin." When he says, "rest for your soul", what gives your soul anxiety? What causes it to feel guilt and sin?  
  
Justin Perdue: He's talking to people who are grieved by sin.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Resting is not saying," I don't have to worry about my sin because there's grace." no grace leads us to repentance.  
  
Justin Perdue: For any person who is arrogant or comfortable in sin. There is a message that we speak from Scripture and it's called the law. Jesus does that in his ministry, the apostles do it in their writing, we do it, Jon, as preachers and pastors in our local churches. We preach the law toward those who are arrogant and comfortable in sin.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I winna go back to here and what Jesus is saying, and I love it because it brings so much comfort to know that what we have been saying and preaching and what leads us along is grounded in the very words and nature of Jesus Christ. It's not as if I needed this, but when I look at it, as you said, Justin, sometimes we get beat down by, unfortunately, legalism and pietism; people will attack you. There is so much of it that it's prevalent in popular evangelicalism. I just want to say, have we not read Matthew 11? Why is this not a part of our systematic theology when we think about Christology? I want to say here again that he's talking to people who are crushed by their sin. The law that's being put upon them is too much for them to carry—those who are heavy laden and burdened. Then he says, "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me." Why would we want to do that, Jesus? He goes well, "Because I am gentle and lowly in heart. My intentions are not to crush you. My intentions are not for you to earn your salvation. I am here to give you the rest they and the law cannot give you."  
  
Jesus has made his yoke and his burden very, very obvious of what he means by that. What does he mean? We go find rest in Jesus, he's giving the rest of our souls; now, what are we supposed to be doing?  
  
Justin Perdue: He says, "You're burdened and heavy laden. Come to me. I have taken the burden of the law from you. I have fulfilled it. I have taken the burden of your sins from you and have atoned for them, and you will bear none of that anymore." I'm going to say the shortest and then expand a little bit where he effectively says to us, "Now that I have done all that for you, and you have come to me, love me and love each other." Loving him is more, "Love me and abide in my love. Live and rest and dwell in my love, but love each other." Even if we're going to say it as "love me and love each other", we respond to that as those whom Jesus Christ has rescued. Oh yeah, absolutely. What else would we do, Jesus, but to love you in light of how you have loved us and have given yourself for us? That's Ephesians 5:1-2\. Also Ephesians 5:1-2: therefore we love each other. Of course, this is what we would do. That yoke is easy and that burden is light, according to the Lord Jesus. And it is.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want you to pay attention again to Paul. Paul says in Ephesians 4, he gets done just giving you the glory of Christ. We probably mention this passage every week, but it's so relevant to the everyday life of the Christian; why not mention it? Ephesians 4, Paul says, "I therefore, a prisoner of the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called." If we go back to Matthew 11, he says that if you believe in Jesus, if you've come to him, that's because it's been revealed to you or he has called you unto himself. Paul is saying if you're one of these ones who have been called, this is the burden that you bear. I love this. He doesn't point to actions, as far as these are the watermarks by which you must hit; he says, "With all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity in the bond of peace. It's like, "Listen, be nice to each other. That's what I need you to do. Be kind."  
  
Justin Perdue: In other words, love each other; be humble, be gentle, be patient, be kind, and pursue unity because we have all been united to the Lord Jesus Christ. We're united to him and we're united to one another in him. That's the message, for sure.  
  
Hebrews is chock full of stuff, but Hebrews 7 is beautiful, where we read in Hebrews 7:25, in particular, that Jesus always lives to make intercession for his own. He is able to save to the uttermost all those who draw near to God through him. That's a wonderful, wonderful thought about Christ and his posture toward us. He intercedes for us. But then also he advocates for us when we sin. 1 John 2:1-2\. "Little children, I'm writing these things to use so that none of you may sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but the sins of the whole world." Christ advocates for his people. Dane Ortlund does a good job of talking about Christ's roles. Dane does a nice job of talking about Christ as intercessor and Christ as advocate. Even the difference between the two, that as an intercessor, that's an ongoing role; as an advocate, that particularly happens when we sin. It's not that Jesus advocates for us once we've gotten beyond our sin and we've gotten better; he advocates for us in the midst of it, and that's a wonderful reminder in terms of Christ's gentleness in his love toward us even in our weakness and failure.  
  
A couple of other passages from the gospels—and these are both from Luke that come to mind—we touched on one of these a few weeks ago, so I'm not going to labor it. In the aftermath of that interchange in Luke 14, where Jesus is exhorting people to take up their cross and more or less to renounce everything they would ever look to in themselves, immediately Luke 15 follows. Jesus is speaking to people, and we're told that sinners and tax collectors are gathering around him; they're drawing near to him and the Pharisees don't like it. Then what does Christ do in that context where he's got sinners and tax collectors drawing near to him, and the Pharisees are upset? Because those kinds of folk shouldn't draw near to a prophet. What does he do? He tells three parables about the joy that there is in heaven when sinners are saved.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Not the righteous.  
  
Justin Perdue: When sinners repent, when sinners are saved, there's rejoicing in heaven, just like when a shepherd loses a sheep and goes and finds it, brings it back, and has a party. Just like the woman who loses a coin, turns her house upside down and inside out and finds it, calls her friends together and has a party. Jesus says it will be in heaven.  
  
Then, of course, the prodigal son, which is all about the posture of God toward us. We've blown it in every way, and then even when we think about how we relate to God, we come back to God with all of these pitches and presentations. "Let me work for you as a slave. Treat me as a hired servant." And the Father effectively says none of that; I've got a robe of righteousness for you, a ring of grace, and shoes of mercy. Let's celebrate cause you were lost and are found; you were dead and you're now alive. It's who God is. That's huge that we would understand that whole passage, that whole chapter, that's very well known. What is it that gives occasion for it? It is self-righteousness, people that think they don't need a Savior, and people who are upset that Jesus would have sinners draw near to him. Christ is like, "You don't get it. This is who I am. This is who my Father is."  
  
Jon Moffitt: I was going to say that what's interesting about the story of the prodigal son is that the prodigal son never disowned his father. He still realized that he was in his family, but what did he try to do? He tried to earn his way back into the good graces of the father.  
  
Justin Perdue: He tried to earn it. He said, "Let me work. Let me be a slave." The father interrupts his pitch. Because he's saying, "Father, I've sinned against heaven and before you. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son." And he's going to say, "Treat me as a hired servant." That's when the father says, "Bring the best robe and put it on him."  
  
We think, "I've got to do this. I've got to somehow plead my case and bring something." And the Father delights to say, "No, that was never what this was about." And of course that robe of righteousness is the very righteousness of Christ that we put on.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. And it's not that the father was justifying the son's sin because the son had repented; he had come home. If you think we're saying God is just going to look past your sin, that's not what we're saying.  
  
I'm going to read to you a couple of passages that are, what I would say, prophecies of Christ, and even the nature of God's relationship to the sinner. First one is Isaiah 42:3, when he says, "A bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench; he will faithfully bring forth justice." There are so many people in my church, and we've even gotten three or four or five emails this morning from Theocast listeners from around the world—this describes you. You are bruised for a number of reasons; it could be circumstances, it could be cancer, it could be your own sin. Then you definitely feel this idea of you being barely alive. What we hear in this radicalness, in this description of Jesus, is that if you're not full of flame on fire for God, then you should be questioning your salvation, you should be questioning whether you're truly in God. And you have here the prophets saying, "Don't worry. For those of you who feel like a strong enough wind is going to come and snap you, and you're not as strong as you know you're supposed to be, and for those of you that a little poof is going to blow out your fire, don't worry. That is not going to happen."  
  
I'm going to read you a quote from Richard Sibbes' book, _The Bruised Reed_. He quotes Isaiah 61:1, and he says, "He 'binds up the broken hearted'. As a mother is tenderest toward the most diseased and weakest child, so does Christ most mercifully incline to the weakest. Likewise he puts an instinct into the weakest things to rely upon something stronger than themselves for support. The vine steadies itself upon the elm, and the weakest creatures often have the strongest shelters. The consciousness of the church's weakness makes her willing to lean on her Beloved and to hide herself under his wings." I love this. The church is described as weak and Christ is described as strong. We somehow reverse this as if we are the ones to be strong, and Jesus says, "No, I'll be strong enough for you."  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen, brother. There's a great interchange toward the end of //The Bruised Reed//. It's a hypothetical dialogue between Satan and a believer. Satan, of course, is the great accuser of the brethren, and so Sibbes is talking about how effectively, as we would frame it, the sufficiency of Christ and the love of Christ toward us is what we are able to look to in order to extinguish the darts of the enemy. Satan, of course, is lobbying all these accusations about how this believer has no faith, no love, and all these things, and the believer is acknowledging it: "You're right. I've got barely a hint of faith and love." The devil will say, "Christ is not going to regard that." the believer keeps pointing back to Jesus and the nature of Christ ultimately to say, "No, Jesus will fan that flame. He will sustain and fan that flame until he has brought judgment to victory." That is the hope of the Christian.  
  
One last passage, Jon, from the gospels that I think is really good to illustrate the posture of Jesus towards sinners; it's the woman of the city from Luke 7\. This is a woman who is a prostitute. Jesus has been invited by a Pharisee to come have dinner at his house. Jesus is in the house of Simon the Pharisee, and this woman of the city, as Luke says, because she has heard that Jesus is there, she comes to this Pharisee's house. That's a shocking thing to say in and of itself, that a woman at the city who is a sinner, a prostitute, would come to the house of a Pharisee because she's heard that Christ is there. Of course, there's the famous account where she comes in and she cleans the feet of Christ with her own tears, her own hair, and anoints them with the ointment she's brought and all of these things, and the Pharisee is indignant. He's thinking if this man were a prophet, he would have nothing to do with this woman because of the kind of woman she is. Of course, Christ knows his thoughts and gives him this illustration about a moneylender who had two debtors, one owed him 500 denarii, the other owed him 50\. Neither could pay, and the moneylender forgives the debt. Who's going to love the moneylender more? And the Pharisee rightly answers that it's the one who had the bigger debt forgiven. So Christ then points to the woman and demonstrates that she has done all of these things for him because she has been forgiven much. He says that her sins, though they are many, have been forgiven, and she has loved much. And then he just looks at this woman and says to her, "Your sins are forgiven." Two verses later, he looks at her and he says, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace." It's so good. It's gripping, right?  
  
An observation not unique to me: Jesus offers not one single word of rebuke to that woman. Though her sins are many, he says so himself, the only words he speaks to her are words of forgiveness and peace. "You're forgiven, daughter, and you can go in peace because your faith in me has saved you." Jesus is a friend for sinners; there is none like him. This is how he always treats people who come to him in that way, and that's what we are aiming to uphold this morning and what we aim to uphold in our churches all the time. Jon, I need this, you need this. I need Christ to look upon me, a wretch, who knows I'm a wretch, and say, "Son, you're forgiven. You can go in peace because your faith in me has saved you."  
  
Jon Moffitt: To your point, Justin, she doesn't need to be rebuked. She is there because she's a sinner. Someone might say, "Jon, you gotta be careful there. Justin, should be careful because that can make it sound like someone could live in prostitution and just come to Jesus and it's okay." No, she came to Jesus because she wanted forgiveness, not justification for her sins.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen, brother. It's very clear in the context: she's got no merit, she's got no righteousness, she's got no confidence in herself. Her posture is meek, humble, and contrite, and is casting herself upon Christ. To everyone who comes to him that way, Jesus says, "I will never cast you out. I will keep you and I will raise you up on the last day."  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you are the smoldering wick and the bruised reed, let me encourage you that Paul makes it very clear how it is that you were to be cared for and it's not by yourself. Justin and I will explain that to you. Secondly, I have some thoughts on preachers who come in with the self-righteousness, almost of the Pharisees, and just lay law on those who are the smoldering wick and the bruised reed, and it is disgusting. So I have some thoughts on that as well.  
  
Justin Perdue: I imagine the members' podcast, the one we're about to do, is going to be spirited today. If you want to listen in on that conversation, you can find more information about our membership and ways that you can partner with the podcast at our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. The membership and everything related to it is going to be changing in the near future. I know we've been saying that for a number of weeks. We're working hard to get that pulled off for you, and we are excited about what it's going to be like. The podcast that we're about to do is very much a family time. We're having a conversation with one another. Those who have partnered with us to join this Reformation, we're going to continue to think about this subject matter in terms of the posture of Christ and even some of the things that John raised: how a number of preachers seem to have a posture that is similar to that of the Pharisees and self-righteousness and all that good stuff.  
  
If you're interested in that conversation, we look forward to talking with many of you over there. We thank you for listening today. We hope that you have been encouraged as we have thought about the gentle and lowly posture of Jesus Christ towards sinners like us. We look forward to talking with you again next week.

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### Depart from Me (Dazed and Confused: Matthew 7)

*Published: March 31, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/depart-from-me-dazed-and-confused-matthew-7*
*Tags: Assurance, Dazed &amp; Confused, Depart from Me, Matthew 7, NC*

"I never knew you; depart from me," are words in Matthew 7 many of us fear we will hear from Jesus. Should we live in fear that we will finally be rejected by Christ for not doing enough? Was that his intention? Or did he mean something else?  
  
Members' Podcast Description: Jon and Justin talk about the importance of law/gospel distinction in the Sermon the Mount, as well as how to love and care for those with a tender conscience.  
  
Book give away: ["Safe in Christ: A Primer on Assurance" ](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/product-category/books/safe-in-christ/)  
  
[Members' Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-depart-from-me-dazed-and-confused-matthew-7/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEx4FWSrrNE  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we are looking at the phrase, "Depart from me; I never knew you." Many of you have struggled with this and asked us what this means and why did Jesus say this? Justin and I are going to look at Matthew 5-7, and then specifically looking at verses 21 and following, to help you understand what Jesus really meant by saying, "Depart from me; I never knew you." Stay tuned.  
  
Justin, today is one of these podcasts that, I think, for years and years and years, we have been getting the question on Matthew 7\. The famous phrase of Jesus "depart from me; I never knew you" is a legitimate source of fear and anxiety among many, many Christians. What we're going to do today on the podcast is try and walk you through what Jesus wanted us to know and maybe how he misinterpreted that.  
  
Justin, I'm going to start with you. I know that you wanted to give us a little bit of context with Matthew 5, and that'll help us in our explanation while walking through the passage in Matthew 7, so that we can fully understand Jesus's intention. We're not going to be biblicist or eisegete a text, which means to isolate a verse out of its context and make our own application separate from the original intention of the application.  
  
Justin Perdue: We want to try to faithfully understand this text in the context of the Sermon on the Mount, because that's where this occurs. Matthew 5-7 contain the Sermon on the Mount, which is perhaps the most famous sermon in the history of the world. What we would understand is contained in those chapters is a summary of all the things that Jesus would have taught on that occasion. We want to be faithful to that context in an immediate way, but then we also want to be faithful to the context of the New Testament, the new covenant, and the context of the entire Scripture. We hope that that's what occurs today and we hope this is encouraging for people.  
  
The Sermon on the Mount, wholesale—there are a number of things that could be said about it, but it's very clear that perhaps the primary thing that Jesus is aiming to do in that sermon is to unpack and preach for the people God's law and apply it rightly to the hearts of man. He begins with the Beatitudes, which are relatively famous—and I think those we could talk about for just a second. He begins by saying blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are those who mourn, those who are meek, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, etc. It's very clear that what Christ is saying in that context is you're blessed if these things characterize you and to be these things very clearly means that you understand that you are weak, that you are needy, that you do not have what it takes, and that you would be hungering and thirsting for righteousness but understanding—and I'm going to go and say in the context of the whole Scripture—that righteousness must be given to you. It's not something that you can achieve and earn. It's very clear in the way that he lays out some of those Beatitudes there.  
  
But then he goes on, in Matthew 5, to say things like, "I didn't come to abolish the law; I came to fulfill the law." Not any small part of the law is going to pass away. Then he says to the people that righteousness is required of you, and in particular, a righteousness that is greater than that of the scribes and Pharisees, which in that context would have been a mind blowing thing to say because the scribes and Pharisees were famous for their conformity to the law. They were so godly and pious that they had even put a hedge around the law so that they didn't come close to breaking it. That would have been the perception, and that would have been held up in the minds of the people as the standard of righteousness and godliness. And Jesus says even that is not enough; you need something that exceeds even that. Then he goes on to illustrate what the law of God requires, in talking about anger, and how you've heard it said you shouldn't murder, and you might think you're good if you hadn't killed somebody, but if you're angry with your brother, you've broken the law. You've heard to not commit adultery: you might think you're doing well, and that you've fulfilled the law if you're not sleeping with somebody who's not your spouse, but I'm telling you if you've lusted after somebody, you've broken the law. He goes on to talk in those ways. Then at the very end of Matthew 5:48, the conclusion there of that section is, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Anybody who has ears to hear, that is listening to Christ speak these kinds of words, must draw the conclusion, "I am done. It's hopeless for me because I cannot do what Christ is telling me I have to do."  
  
This is an exercise in law and gospel distinction. If you don't have a law and gospel distinction in view when you come to the Sermon on the Mount, God help you because Christ is saying things that will absolutely not only unsettle you, but crush you. Because it's very clear that what is required of us before the Lord, we could never pull it off.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think it's helpful just to read the beginning of Matthew 6, because he is setting the tone of who he's talking to: "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." So he is dealing with an issue of self-righteousness. I think this is so important.  
  
Justin Perdue: Self-righteousness and this kind of very external showy religion. Even when he teaches us to pray in the famous model prayer, the Lord's Prayer, what does he say right before it? "Don't heap up empty phrases in prayer, like the Gentiles do, thinking that there'll be heard for their many words." Don't do that; that's what ungodly people do. "God already knows what you need before you ask Him, so therefore, pray this way."  
  
Jon Moffitt: And in that context, when he says not to lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, sometimes we think of that about money, but in context, again, I do think he's thinking of your works here. You think you're somehow gaining value, and he says, "No, this is not where your value is found." It's so helpful if you're going to make applications and understand what Jesus' intentions of us understanding what he's saying, you have to pay close attention to his audience, and his words, and what he's saying. This is why we wanted to start back in chapter five and get the whole sermon in mind to study what he's going after. There's a law-gospel distinction definitely going on. He's giving them law so that they'll take the gospel, they don't want the gospel, so he ups the law higher and higher and higher.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's important to remember that Jesus almost exclusively interacts with other Jewish people; he is not speaking to Gentiles, he's not speaking to pagans. He's talking to people who would have had the Torah, the law of God, who would have at least to some extent known it, and who would have been under this very Pharisaical kind of religion where they were taught, "Do these things, and you will be righteous."  
  
Even the Pharisees would acknowledge that God needs to be gracious in this and that God is the one who makes us this way ala Luke 18: "I thank you, God, that I'm not like other people." But it still is this notion of needing to be righteous and needing to do what's required. To use the language of the gospels that we see repeated over and over again, he's talking to people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and he's talking to people that trust that they can somehow achieve righteousness—and we cannot ever forget that when we're reading the teachings of Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's super helpful.  
  
Now we're moving into chapter seven, and in chapter seven, the theme is being carried along. Jesus' primary mission, he says, "I've come to seek and to save that which is lost." He says the healthy don't need a physician, but the sick. So, he's always telling them, "I am here for those." Just like we said a couple of weeks ago, when we were looking at Luke 14 and he's talking about those who can hear, let them hear. Who is it that walked toward Jesus? It was sinners and tax collectors. He is trying to convert every self-righteous Jew into a sinner because once they're a sinner, they'll want Jesus as a Savior. But until they see Jesus as Savior, then they're never going to see him as who he is. A Jewish teacher; that's all they're going to see.  
  
Justin Perdue: You're exactly right. He's talking to people and he's saying effectively, "You think you're healthy, but I'm telling you you're sick. You think you're righteous, but I'm telling you you're a sinner."  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. Then you look at chapter seven. If you pay attention from chapter five going forward, it seems like Jesus just keeps upping the wall so high that eventually no one will think they can climb over into acceptable righteousness in the presence of God—but they don't. So Jesus says, "Judge not, that you be not judged for the. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure that you use it will be measured to you. What are these people saying? "Oh, I'm a righteous person and they're not." Jesus is like, "Don't do that. You're not understanding."  
  
Justin Perdue: It's straight up Romans 2\. When you do that, what you're effectively doing is this: you are judging other people because they have not met the standard that you are holding out for them to meet. Then effectively, he is saying, "You also have not met your own standard. So when you judge other people and condemn them for not meeting the standard and not passing the test, you condemn yourself because you haven't done those things either." Then the point of Paul in Romans 2 that, I think, agrees with the words of Jesus is if you haven't met your own standard, how much less so have you met God's?  
  
Jon Moffitt: He even calls them hypocrites at one point. "You hypocrite! First take out the log that is in your own eye," your own sin, your own self-righteousness; you need to remove that before you can ever be considered to think about trying to help someone else. He starts moving on. Then there's the shift where he's trying to help them understand that he is drawing them to himself. He says something in verse seven: "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." He was bouncing back and forth between the concept of those who try and earn self-righteousness, this is what happens to them, but those who receive self-righteousness, it's theirs. "If you want my righteousness, just ask for it. It's yours."  
  
What you have to understand is that these people have so much law in their minds. They must earn it. Jesus says, "No, the Father who is good, and will give good gifts, He will give it to you. Ask for it and it's yours."  
  
Justin Perdue: Yeah. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness." Ask and it will be given. Jesus is reiterating that God is a good and faithful Father who always gives good gifts to his kids, so you can trust that God will be good and that He will respond kindly to such a request.  
  
What Jesus is doing there is it's an invitation. This is effectively Christ saying, "Come to me and come to my Father in humility and meekness and poorness of Spirit," if that's even a way to phrase it, "and the poverty of your own spiritual condition. Ask, and it will be given." It's Luke 18 again; it's, "Have mercy on me, a sinner."  
  
I'm just mindful of Jesus saying in John 6, "Whoever comes to me, I will never cast out." So this invitation, "Ask and you'll receive," it all hangs together quite beautifully.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yes, it does.  
  
Now we're getting to a place where things are going to get a little complicated. This is where these verses are often used to beat Christians down and to scare them. From some of the camps that I grew up in, which was fundamentalism and even the Lordship salvation camp, these are used as a way to say, "Hey, for those who are going to be a real Christian, a true Christian, those who are going to take Jesus seriously, we're just going to quote Jesus." Jesus literally says that it's hard to be a Christian, it's hard to find your way in. So, you start reading verses like Matthew 7:13, which says, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many, for the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Right there, Jesus is saying that if you're going to come unto him, it's going to be hard and there's not going to be very many that find it. What does Jesus communicate? Have we misunderstood him or are we understanding him rightly? What is he saying here?  
  
Justin Perdue: What I don't think he's saying is the kind of stuff that would be presented, like you've alluded to, Jon, in the Lordship camp; the kind of hard-to-believe, "Christianity is hard so you need to be dedicated enough, you need to persevere, you need to grit your teeth and white knuckle this thing, stay the course and it's going to be hard. If it was easy, everybody would do it. Only the strong survive." That's the message that we often hear, and I don't think that's at all what Christ is saying—in part, because that would fly in the face of the context of the Sermon on the Mount, and it is contradictory to the gospel, bottom line. We then ask ourselves, in light of the context of the Sermon on the Mount, where it falls in redemptive history in light of a law-gospel distinction and the like, and also a theology of the cross. I'm just throwing a bunch of terms that we've used before, and if you don't know what these are, you can listen to some other episodes.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We'll put them in the notes.  
  
Justin Perdue: What I think Christ is saying, Jon, is that very few people will be Christians because it is hard to enter, because very few people are going to renounce their own virtue, and renounce what they're doing and trust in Christ alone. That is not something that is intuitive or natural for fallen man. We always want to trust in ourselves in some way. It's hard, actually. Frankly, to use the words of Christ elsewhere, it's impossible for man to enter into this because we always want to look to ourselves, and it is only by a miracle of God that we would ever look away from ourselves completely and trust Christ. So, yeah, the gate is narrow and the way is hard in that—Christ says this in other places and we talked to this a couple of weeks ago—if we follow Jesus, we will live a cruciform life in that we follow a crucified suffering Messiah, so our lives will also be characterized by weakness and we will encounter harm and hatred for his name. It will not be an easy way to live. I think that's what he's trying to illustrate there.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is not disconnected from the context of being perfect; this is the outflow of it. As a matter of fact, he gives something above it. "However you wish to be treated, treat other people that way, for this is the Law and the Prophets." Then he says, "Oh, and by the way, entering into the gate is hard. It's narrow. There are few that find it." Why? Because it requires you to abandon yourself; any self-worth, any self-righteousness is what he is talking about.  
  
Then he says to them, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You'll recognize them by their fruits." Again, this is where we get into fruit checking. What I think is interesting in the context, Jesus is saying you're looking for the fruits of the false teachers, and you're trying to use that to be aware of it. Some would ask what Jesus is pointing out about what they are teaching that is false. I have to say, Jesus, I think, has made it very clear that the false teaching is that you are saved by the law.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think the false teaching in particular that he's pointing out in his immediate context is the false teaching of the Pharisees who have told people, maybe by God's grace, to do these things well enough and you will be righteous.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Again, we like to put things on the text. It's sad when this happens: when you have preachers or teachers who will make this context about lazy Christians or sinful Christians or people in general. Now they're trying to say that Jesus is trying to straighten these people up. You can say you follow Jesus and live however you want—and that's what Jesus is pointing out. It's like they're saying, if you're going to follow Jesus, it's going to be hard, and you need to be aware of these people because they're going to have bad fruit. Jesus is not talking about people who are claiming to follow him. He's talking to people who won't follow him. That's the problem. They won't follow him because they don't see a need for him, because they have their own righteousness. Don't put your context on what Jesus is saying. Listen to what Jesus is saying in his own context.  
  
Justin Perdue: Really, at the heart of what Jesus is trying to expose in the entire sermon, but in this context too immediately in chapter seven, is this thing that we talk about all the time: where is your trust and confidence? Are you trusting in yourself and what you're doing or are you trusting in Christ? It's very clear that what Christ is aiming to do is destroy any possibility of us trusting in ourselves, and he is inviting us to trust in him.  
  
Now we come to verses 21 to 23.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Before we do, it's the famous verses that are used, and I do think they are connected. It says, "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits."  
  
Justin Perdue: He's talking about teachers though. False prophets, etc.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He is. He does say every healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a deceased tree bear good fruit. Let's say, for the sake of argument, he's talking about good fruit and bad fruit. Justin, what fruit is he talking about here? We just have to ask it. We put into the text what we think Jesus is saying, but can we look at Matthew 5-7 and determine what Jesus means by this context of fruit?  
  
Justin Perdue: The illustration of a tree and its fruit is used. I want to say a few things. First of all, if we're talking about fruit that has any kind of value, we're talking about the fruit of God's Spirit. Full stop. It's very clear that only the Holy Spirit of God can produce that fruit. It's important that when we talk about a tree and the fruit, that we understand the relationship of the tree to the fruit. Many people before me have said this, but it just bears repeating right now, that the tree being alive is what causes it to produce fruit. The fact that there is fruit on the tree does not make the tree alive. You can't invert the relationship. So life produces fruit; fruit does not produce life. When we are talking about fruit, biblically, we are always in the realm of evidence and demonstration of life that has been given by God to somebody. This is why willpower religion will never square with the gospel of Christ, because you cannot reverse engineer this, and you cannot white knuckle this thing and produce the kind of fruit that Christ is talking about. You can't do it. Only God can.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. So in context, self-righteousness, obedience to the law and laws that aren't even Christ's law—these are manmade Jewish laws—and Jesus is saying you will know them by their fruit. You're going to see it. You're going to see the self-righteousness and know they're a false teacher, because that is not what Jesus is talking about.  
  
Justin Perdue: Yeah. The bad fruit is that. The good fruit is what I was describing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Exactly. That is where we find ourselves.  
  
Justin Perdue: Matthew 7: 21-23\. I'm just going to read them so that they're in the minds and the ears of our listeners, and then we'll talk about it. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Let's walk through this, Jon, and just riff a little bit.  
  
Verse 21, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Immediately, when I hear those words of doing the will of my Father in heaven, my mind goes to John 6, where Jesus is very clear about what it is to do the works of God. Effectively, he says in John 6:29, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." I don't think we can forget that. You may call Jesus Lord, and you may call upon him, but have you trusted in him whom the Father has sent? And if you are doing that, in one sense, you are doing the works of God. But that's just one observation on verse 21.  
  
Then notice in verse 22, there will be many who say to Jesus at the end of history, "Lord, Lord, did we not do all of these things in your name? Did we not do all of these works in your name?" Christ's response to them is, "Depart from me; I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness." I think it has to be observed in the context of the Sermon on the Mount. You have people who are calling upon Christ and who are saying to him, "Jesus, we're legitimate. Look at all we did in your name. We did it in your name. Look at all this stuff we did." And he says, "Depart from me." It's very clear that they are trusting in something else besides him alone. They are not looking to him; they are, in some measure, looking to the works they have done in his name. Christ says to those people, "Depart from me; I never knew you."  
  
I want to also observe from verse 23 that we can't forget something like John 10, where Jesus is very clear that he knows his own and that his own know him. They hear his voice and they follow after him. "I give them eternal life. They'll never perish. Nobody can pluck them from my hand."  
  
This situation is very clear in the context of everything that we've been saying. The people that are going to come to Christ and call upon him, and Jesus is going to look at them and say, "Depart from me," are people who are still trusting in their own righteousness. They are looking to work that they have performed in Christ's name. Jesus is going to tell them, "Your confidence and your trust is misplaced. You, in fact, are not my sheep because my sheep know me and follow me and trust in me, not in anything else."  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. He gets some parables to explain to them, "If you reject what I'm saying, you're a fool." He says to them, "Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew..." Anyways, we all have all heard the story. Then at the very end, Matthew writes at verse 28, "And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes. He came in and basically said, "Thus says the Lord. And if you don't believe this, you're damned."  
  
Justin Perdue: The Sermon on the Mount—just a brief theological comment here. It is so similar to when the law was given the first time through Moses at Sinai. The law then is given through a mediator on a mountain, written on tablets of stone. But then Jesus now shows up as the new and greater Moses on a mountain side, and is going to really give people the law. People are shocked and astonished at what he says, because it's like you said, it's, "Thus saith the Lord". This has come directly from God himself, and we, for the first time are hearing rightly what God requires of us, and this is astonishing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The tender, poor person who legitimately worries, "Is God going to look at me and say He never knew me?" There are people who listen to this podcast, and I know you struggle with that. You're afraid that when you get to heaven, that you weren't genuine, you truly didn't believe, you truly didn't repent enough, you didn't do good enough works—it almost sounds like Roman Catholicism—and it's pietism. It's this constant introspection of, "Am I doing enough to basically prove to God I deserve to be let in and not be left out in the cold by the Father? I want to make sure this is a done deal." This is not who Jesus is talking to. As a matter of fact, to that dear precious person who is beat down by the law, you know what he says to you? "Just come to me and I'm going to give you rest." These harsh words, you know who they're for? They're for the person who has the confidence in themselves saying, "Well, I've done all the right things. I've said all the right things. I am good. Therefore God should accept me." And Jesus says, "I don't know you that I don't save people like you because you don't need to be saved. I save people who crumble under their sin and say, 'Oh, wretched man that I am. Who will save me from this body of death?'" To quote Paul in Romans 7.  
  
Justin Perdue: God is opposed to the proud, but He gives grace to the humble. That's in Scripture. Now He is opposed to every proud person, He is opposed to people who are trusting in themselves that they are righteous. But to those who have been humbled and crushed by the law, what does Christ say? You already said it. "Come to me all who are weary and heavy-laden and I'll give you rest. Come take my yoke." Again, the yolk was an image he used of the law. "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." That's the invitation of Christ to all those who are poor in spirit, to all those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, to all those who are meek, who have been crushed by God's holy requirements and know they don't meet the test. He says, "Come to me and find rest, righteousness, peace, absolution, and forgiveness."  
  
John 6:37, where Jesus says, "All the Father gives to me will come to me and all who come to me, I will never cast out." Christ never turns people away who come to him in faith, and who come to him knowing that they can't achieve righteousness and need him to do it. It's only those who are proud and self-righteous, who are trusting in some measure in themselves, that Christ would be opposed to.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Someone may ask, "How do I know if I've heard the voice of Jesus?" He says, "My sheep hear my voice and they know me and I know them." I will tell you this: if you can look at yourself and say, "There's no way that I measure up to what God requires." "Be as perfect as I am." I can't do that. I've never been able to do it a moment. I've never loved God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, and I've definitely not loved my neighbor.  
  
If you feel that, this is what Jesus' voice sounds like: "If you do not want to be condemned and held accountable for this violation against the Father, then you come to me and I'll receive that punishment. In turn, I'm going to give you my obedience. I'm going to give you my righteous garments that you are going to wear. And the Father is going to look at you and say, 'My child.'" That's what Jesus' voice sounds like. That's where rest is found. If you are hearing the gospel message of you want to be set free from your guilt, you want all the required righteousness that God requires of you, to be in His presence, then come to Jesus. It is that simple. By faith, trust in God's imputation of His righteousness and His replacement of you on the cross. It really is that simple.  
  
Jesus keeps saying that over and over and over; it is that simple, but you must first see yourself as sick and sinful, a wretch. This is why it says that Jesus spent time with sinners because that's who he came to save. Why would he go spend time with the righteous? They don't want him. He's going to go spend time with the sinners because those people are going to want him  
  
Justin Perdue: And sinners gravitated toward him in his earthly ministry, and sinners still do the same. Paul, also in Romans 7, says, "Thanks be to God for Jesus Christ." What a tender, gentle, kind, and loving Savior we have, and he bids us come to him for all of the things that we've been talking about.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The most harsh you've ever seen Jesus is when his temper is appropriately brought to a high level. The words that come out of his mouth, like "viper", and things like that, he is not talking to those who have morally and socially destroyed their lives. He's talking to those who are presenting themselves as acceptable in his presence. He's saying, "I'm God, and you're going to come approach me as an equal? How dare you?"  
  
Justin Perdue: Or, like you said, "viper" or "hypocrite", he tells the Pharisees that they're like whitewashed tombs; they have it all together on the outside and inside they're dying. Even when he pronounces woe upon not only the scribes and Pharisees, but also on certain cities. He'll say that, "If the works that had been done in you had been done in Nineveh, Nineveh would have repented," or, "It will be better on the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than it will be for you."  
  
The posture is we don't need Jesus, we don't want Jesus, we're fine as we are, we've got this thing figured out, and we're doing just fine at pleasing the Lord—Christ's word to that is "woe to you." Judgment, condemnation, wrath. He's opposed to people like that. But for those who are sinners, weak, meek, and all those who come to him knowing they're sick, knowing their need, he is gentle, lowly, gracious, and tender.  
  
Like I said a minute ago, I just want to say it again: it is no shock that the sinners and tax collectors are the ones who gathered around Christ at various points in his ministry, when the Pharisees didn't want anything to do with Jesus. It was those who knew they were a wreck who were drawn to him—and that still is true in the church. It's true for all of us who know that we are a mess, and that we are looking inside and we find no place to stand, and we know that we rightly should bear the wrath and condemnation of God. Even after trusting in Jesus, we could never do enough to have earned God's favor, or to have turned ourselves into the kind of person that God would have been happy to save. So we're always looking to Jesus, and God gives grace.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's interesting for those who hear the voice of Jesus, they say, "Oh, it is good to be in the house of the Lord because we will be reminded once again that we were brought here on the grace of our Father." He brought us here. But to the self-righteous, they will say, "Oh, it's good to be in the house of the Lord because it is here that I have earned my righteousness. It is here that I will prove that this week I have been faithful."  
  
Justin Perdue: Piggybacking on that: one person says, "It's good to be in the house of the Lord because this is where I come and bring an offering to God that pleases Him. This is where I come to do something and give something to God that He desires." The other person says, "It is good to be in the house of the Lord because I come in absolute desperate need, and I know my faithful Father is going to meet me here, and He's going to give me what I need, and He's going to give me His son in the Word and in the sacrament. I come empty and needy that I might be filled, nourished, and sustained." One is a posture, I think, that is commensurate with what Christ is saying in the Sermon on the Mount, and another one, though well-intentioned, I think, is misguided. God is honored very much when we know that we are in need, when we know we're sick, and that we're not righteous, and we need him to give us what we could never do and accomplish on our own.  
  
Jon Moffitt: For that sensitive conscience out there that really truly is feeling this fear. First of all, _Safe in Christ_, the primer on assurance, I would recommend that. I would also recommend our episode that we did on assurance. If you are afraid that God's going to abandon you on the day of judgment, He will abandon you. Absolutely. It's not abandonment—He's going to reject you if you were showing up holding your own self-righteousness as a means by which God should accept you. You should be terrified. But if you're standing there utterly disgusted with yourself, saying there is nothing good in you that God would ever accept, and if you don't have Jesus, you're doomed, He will not turn you away.  
  
Justin Perdue: He will never turn you away. If you come with the attitude of, "I got nothing. I've got only what Christ has given me," there is no reason to fear. You will never be lost and you will never be turned away, not because you are strong, but because Christ is strong. You will never be lost and you will never be turned away, not because you won't fail, but because Christ will never fail you. We look to Jesus always. I'll talk about this more in the members' area, maybe, but that kind of wrestling, even over Matthew 7 in particular, is not lost on me because these verses would come up in my mind and heart for years and years and would just rob me of any peace. I was convinced that I was going to be one of those people, that I will have spent my life sincerely meaning to trust and follow Christ, and at the end of it all, it will have been for nothing, because he's going to look at me and he's going to see right through me. He's going to see that I'm a sinner and that I just am not worthy, and he's going to say, "Depart from me." My word to that weary saint is you most certainly are not worthy, but this has never been about your worthiness; this has always been about Christ's worthiness and Christ's work for you. God loves and delights to save all of those who trust in His Son.  
  
Jon Moffitt: For those of you that are new, we have another podcast that we do where it's kind of the unfiltered version. We're going to go deeper and farther into this conversation. It's for those who want to take this conversation to the next level, where they really want to dive into a Reformed biblical understanding and understand how it is that we can. Help others find rest in Christ. You can find out more about that by going to our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. There are all kinds of new stuff coming.  
  
There's a new membership coming. Stay tuned for that. It's so hard not to talk about it, but it's going to be amazing. I can't even tell you. It's a lot of work so we're also going to need your prayer and support on that. New website, new membership, all kinds of stuff coming, and a new book. Can we tell them what the new book is?  
  
Justin Perdue: We're looking at another primer on Reformed theology.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What is Reformed theology? Stay tuned for that.  
  
Thank you for listening. Let us know if you have any questions or any comments, or if this was helpful. Leave us a review. Leave us a comment. It's always encouraging to see how God is advancing the gospel and encouraging people to rest in Christ.  
  
We'll see you next week.

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### Are You a Legalist or an Antinomian?

*Published: March 24, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/are-you-a-legalist-or-an-antinomian*
*Tags: Antinomianism, Legalism, NC*

Are you a legalist or an antinomian? Most people would claim they are neither. But many Christians don't know what to do with God's law. Jon and Justin talk about the law and the gospel--and how it is Paul could say he delighted in God's law.  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about why it is that so many people leave legalism and head into antinomianism. They also give counsel to those leaving legalism and are wanting to help others do the same.  
  
[Members' Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-are-you-a-legalist-or-an-antinomian/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvGhu9Pc2LA  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Are you a legalist or an antinomian? Most people would say they're neither one, but there is clearly a problem in the church in terms of knowing what to do with God's law. We're going to talk about the law and the gospel today, and seek to answer how in the world could Paul say that he delights in the law of God in his inner man? We hope this is encouraging. We hope it's helpful. Stay tuned.  
  
We have observed that there is a problem in the evangelical church, broadly speaking, with respect to God's law. At one point, Jon and I absolutely have been here ourselves in the midst of this struggle. It's only by God's grace through other people who have helped us see some good things that we are no longer where we once were on this. It's not that we've got it all figured out, but praise God we're not where we used to be.  
  
There's this problem in evangelicalism with respect to God's law. We just don't know what to do with it. What do we do with God's law? You see some people on the one side of the equation who are bent towards self-righteousness, who have a reasonable amount of confidence in themselves that they can do the right things, or maybe they're the kind of people that just tend to do the right stuff often anyway. Those people look to God's law and don't have a lot of problem with it because they have deluded themselves somehow into thinking that they can keep it, that they can meet God's standard or do well enough, that God would look favorably upon them.  
  
Then on the other side of the aisle, you have people who have a more tender conscience, perhaps are aware, in some ways, of their own weakness and they're in frailty. They look at God's law and see something that is threatening and condemning, and thereby, deep down, there's a resentment and a hatred even of God's law and even of God Himself, because they fear that He's going to drop the hammer on them at some point.  
  
You've got these two camps; one might be referred to as a more legalistic camp that is often characterized by self-righteousness and condescension and the like, and thinking that they can do enough to earn righteousness or be considered righteous in the eyes of God. Then this other side that we might call the antinomian camp, who are comprised of people that have a more tender conscience, that see God's law as threatening, and thereby hate God and His commandments. There don't seem to be too many people in between who have a right and biblical understanding of God, His law and His commandments, what He requires of us.  
  
For example, we read the words of Paul in Romans 7\. Jon, you may not want to talk about this just yet but I'm just going to go and drop this bomb, set the grenade on the table, and pull the pin. We read the words of Paul in Romans 7:22, that he delights in the law of God in his inner man. Some people might read that and be incredibly puzzled by it, in terms of how a person could say such a thing. Other people might read that and just assume that maybe even a non-Christian could say that, because you hear some people say that Romans 7 is about Paul in an unregenerate state, which we don't agree with and we'll explain why.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the things that I feel like we have to clarify as new people keep coming to the podcast, and even people that have been here for a while, is that there are categories that people throw around that don't match up with the theological teachings of the Bible. For years, we have been told that we have an improper view of the law, that we are antinomians...  
  
Justin Perdue: _Anti nomos_ meaning against the law.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the things that we want to do in this podcast is clarify the difference between those who are against the law and those who love the law, and then those who are inappropriately using the law, which would be legalists.  
  
Justin Perdue: Those who hate the law, who are against it are antinomians. Those who are, in a 1 Timothy 1 kind of way, not using the law lawfully, that is the legalists. Then there's something in between, where Paul is, we would argue in Romans 7, where he is a believer who understands that he's a sinner, but he can still say he delights in God's law. How is that possible?  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the things that we probably should start with is a clear definition of what the law is. Then we can identify how people fall off on either side, whether it's an antinomian or legalism. Why don't you start with the definition of the law and then I'll talk about how one can fall off into antinomianism, with misunderstanding the law?  
  
Justin Perdue: What I'm about to articulate is really an answer to what the law is for. If you were really pressed to give one answer—obviously there are multiple things that allow for it, but at its most primary basic level: why did God give the law? We would find the answer to that question most pointedly in Romans 5 and Galatians 3, where the apostle Paul makes it very clear that the law was given to increase the trespass of man. The law was given to, in other words, show us the depth of our corruption, to show us the extent of our sinfulness before the Lord, and to thereby drive us outside of ourselves, to the only hope that we could ever have for salvation, namely, God's Christ Jesus, who did everything that we need in order to be reconciled to God.  
  
As we understand the law rightly—that it was given to increase the trespass, to show us the depth of our sin, and to drive us to Christ—we see in the Lord Jesus Christ, in God's gospel, the fact that Christ did multiple things for us. He died the death that we deserve because lawbreakers deserve to die. Jesus died a law breaker's death, and in him, we died to the law—Galatians 2\. His death is counted to us. The penalty we deserve, he took for us. The wrath and the condemnation and the judgment we deserve, he took upon himself for us. He fulfilled the penalties of the law in the place of those who trust in him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Even in God's sovereignty, in the narrative, Jesus died as a law breaker to Rome as an insurrectionist. He took the place of Barabbas, just to make it as clear as possible.  
  
Justin Perdue: He became a curse for us. He was hung on a tree; cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. All of these things, Christ did for us so that he could pay the penalty the law requires of every lawbreaker. Not only did Christ do that, he also accomplished everything that we need with respect to the law by fulfilling it for us. Jesus has a perfect record of obedience at the level of his thoughts, his desires, his deeds, his motivation; everything was always perfect in his earthly life. In doing that, he fulfilled the law in a flawless manner. Our record is trash, his record is perfect, and we get his obedience and righteousness counted to us.  
  
A right understanding of the law and the gospel is critical for the Christian life, wholesale, if we're going to be able to make up and down, and heads and tails of stuff. If we're ever going to think of God's law rightly, you've got to think of it in these terms.  
  
Talk about how people fall off one side of the other because they don't understand some of what we're talking about.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the things that happens is that when you start emphasizing the gospel, and you start preaching by grace alone, through Christ alone, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, immediately people begin to get a little nervous if you don't emphasize back into that gospel the law. They throw at you, "Hey, be careful, you're becoming an antinomian." What their fear is this: "If you're saying it's all by grace, and there's no work necessary, then you are saying that holiness is not necessary." Then they'll say if you're teaching, that you're an antinomian.  
  
Let's be clear, historically, on what an antinomian is. An antinomian is one who literally says they do not believe that there is any law or use of the law for the Christian after coming to Christ; there is no need for the law whatsoever. They don't think it's necessary to obey any of the commands of Scripture. There's no moral law. Nothing. They walk by faith and there's no need to obey. That is a true antinomian. I will agree with that if we're talking about one's justification. If we're talking about your justification, then the law has no use in your justification other than to show you your need for it.  
  
Justin Perdue: To show you your need for Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: An antinomian unfortunately says it's not for your justification, but it's also not for your Christian walk going forward. That's a true antinomian. We would have to come in and say that Paul, James, Timothy, and 2 Peter all make it very clear that post-salvation, when Paul says in Ephesians to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, he then describes meekness, patience, gentleness, and love.  
  
Those are commands. Those are laws given to the believer, what we call the third use of the law.  
  
Justin Perdue: Romans 13: love your neighbor, love one another, and thereby fulfill the law.  
  
Jon Moffitt: But those are not part of our justification. We call that the work of the Spirit. We call that the fruit of the Spirit. So the Spirit works within us and therefore we love. When we emphasize justification by faith alone, we literally mean by faith alone.  
  
The danger is immediately people come in and say faith without works is dead. There's this necessity to always throw that on there. That is where I would say one is falling off on the other side, which is legalism. I know this could sound like a really nuanced conversation, but it's important for us to understand that when someone says antinomian, you need to understand they mean there is absolutely no obedience and no law for the believer post-salvation. That's what it truly, really means to be an antinomian. We have to keep that clear.  
  
I love the Martin Lloyd-Jones quote, when he says if you aren't being accused of being an antinomian after preaching the gospel, you haven't preached the gospel rightly, because there is no law in the gospel there. Let me say it again. There is no law in the gospel. This is why we talk about law-gospel distinction.  
  
Justin Perdue: We need to understand that these two camps, as we're describing them—one being the antinomian camp, one being the legalistic camp—just to describe them a little bit more before we pivot here, the antinomian is a person who understands something of God's holiness, understands something of the requirements of the law, and thereby sees that he or she can't quite do that. There is this threatening judgment, this exacting thing going on with the law., And that person has not rightly understood the work of Christ in his or her place, and thereby has this disdain deep down in his or her heart for the law, and thereby is running away from it as fast as he or she can. That is the project of antinomianism; it's to plug our ears, scream at the top of our lungs, and run away from the law because deep down we hate it. That's that side. But then on the legalistic side, you have people who actually, though they love to talk about holiness and obedience and all these things, they have not understood the holiness of God because they don't understand what he actually requires and how everything that they have ever done is tainted with sin. They have dumbed down the law to a level of thinking that they can fulfill it and keep it, and so they have lacked understanding as well, and have also not seen the gospel in terms of the work of Christ in their place.  
  
Neither of those places is where we want to be. What we see presented in Scripture is something different, where it is very clear that Christ has accomplished everything that is necessary for us to be saved, he has paid our debt, paid our penalty, accomplished our righteousness, given us his own holiness. We are safe and we are secure.  
  
We can then say we love God's law. What in the world does that mean? What in the world does that look like? For example, in Romans 7:22, Paul says that he delights in the law of God in his inner man. A couple of thoughts on this from me: there are people out there who will say that Roman 7 is Paul writing about his unregenerate state or about a non-believer with this whole situation wanting to do good but can't; not wanting to do evil, but you do evil; whenever you want to do good, evil lies close at hand; having a desire to do what's right but can't pull it off; you delight in the law of God in your inner man, but you see in your members another law waging war against your mind.  
  
When Paul writes in those ways, people will say he's talking about somebody who isn't a Christian, to which I would say that's clearly not true on multiple levels. Look at the flow of the letter, first of all. Another observation is, how does a person who naturally is opposed to God and doesn't delight in the things of God, doesn't even understand the things of God naturally, 1 Corinthians 2, how could such a person delight in God's law? I don't think it's possible.  
  
Second observation, which is more relevant to our conversation today, only a person who has been justified, forgiven, and absolved could ever make such a statement that they delight in God's law. Why? Because unless you know that you've been declared righteous, unless you know that you've been forgiven of sin, and unless you know that you have been absolved of all guilt because of Christ alone, by the means of faith alone, you could never say that you delight in God's law because God's law condemns you, and God's law threatens you, and God is still your judge. Thereby, unless you know that you've been justified, forgiven, and absolved, you're going to hate God's law and you're going to hate him, frankly. Paul clearly, in Roman 7, is writing as a believer who understands his position, his identity, he knows he's justified—that's his status; Romans 5—he knows his identity, he's united to Christ; Romans 6\. Yet here's his experience, but he can say he delights in God's law because he knows that he's justified, forgiven and absolved of guilt.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We have to say the law is rejected. Rightly understood. There are many people today who will change the law of God. They will change the law of God and they will say things like, "I think God just requires people to be a good person, then God will let them come into heaven." They just change the requirements of the law, and they like that law. "A good person? I'm better than most." We change the law.  
  
The weight of the law should crush everyone, absolutely crush them. When someone says they know what God requires, and it doesn't crush them as an unbeliever, then that's not God's law; that's your law. That's your misinterpretation of God's law. Someone should hear it as an unbeliever and go, "That's ridiculous. No one can do that." Now you understand God's law. "Well, then I don't like God." Exactly. Then you are redeemed, pulled out from underneath the weight of the law, and all of a sudden you look down at the law from God's view—not underneath the weight of it, but looking down upon it—and you're say, "Wow, this is beautiful. This is glorious. This is the nature of God. This is what God looks like within a broken humanity." This is the perspective we should have.  
  
Justin Perdue: The law in its threatening first use sense is characterized by statements such as this: you must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect; if you break the law in any way, you're guilty of breaking all of it—James 2; if your works are going to contribute to your salvation, then you need to keep the whole law—Galatians 5; those who do these things shall live by them—Leviticus 18:5; Deuteronomy 27:26—anybody who does not keep everything that's written in this law is cursed. This is how the law speaks.  
  
To your point, Jon, if we understand that rightly in terms of what the Lord requires—and Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount makes it very clear that it's not just some external conformity, it's actually at the level of the heart and the mind—then yes, we read that and we hear that and we say we hate that because that because that is our death sentence. I'm ruined. What can I do? At that point, you are ready to hear the gospel, because then the message of the gospel is this: everything that the law is pointing out, that weight that's impossible for you to bear, Christ took that; he bore that. He said, "You know what? That burden that you can't bear? I'm happy to take that. I'll carry it for you. I will pay your penalty because you deserve it. And I will accomplish your righteousness because you need it. Trust me. It's done. You're safe. You're secure. You'll live with God forever. You will be bodily resurrected. Imperishable. Incorruptible. You will forever obey God perfectly and rejoice in him perfectly, and I have secured that for you." To which we say, hallelujah! Praise the Lord. Right. That's the law and the gospel distinction that we're talking about.  
  
It's so clear, biblically, that that conversion—coming from death to life, etc.—has to happen for a person to ever be able to say that they delight in God's law. For example, consider the patterns of some of the words in the Psalms: Psalm 130:4 reads this way: "But with you," speaking of God, "there is forgiveness, that you may be feared." Listen to that sequence. With the Lord, there is forgiveness of sins, and the fact that the Lord forgives sins—think Exodus 34, He's a God merciful, gracious, and slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin. Because that's who God is, that actually leads his people to reverence Him, to fear Him, and to love Him.  
  
Psalm 119:32 says that we will run after God's commandments when God has enlarged our heart. When He has done something internally for me, I will run after His commandments. It's exactly what Paul was saying in Romans 7 that because he knows he's safe, and because he has been justified, forgiven, and absolved, he can now look to God's law and say he delights in it. It's good. It's wonderful. Why? Because it no longer condemns him. It no longer threatens him because Christ has removed its sting, and now he can look to it as the perfect, holy, righteous, all good guide for his life. In other words, this allows us to then look at the law and use it in the third use kind of way: as the perfect guide for the life of the Christian.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The other side of this, and this is where there's a confusion between law and gospel, the antinomian pretty much rejects the law after justification, the legalist confuses the law and the gospel and collapses them together. You have one abandoning law and you have one mixing the law. It's really important to understand this because, again, antinomian is one to reject the law after justice. There's no use for it and they hate it. The legalist then mixes law and the gospel.  
  
Here's a great example of this: yes, we are saved by faith alone, and they will preach that from the mountain tops, but they will call your salvation or your assurance into question based upon your level of obedience to the law. It's highly confusing because they will say, "Sola fide. Faith alone." But then they say you have to do this, this, and this, which is law. Anytime you say you must do something, this is law, in order to do an order for this result, which is your assurance, that's a mixture of the law and gospel.  
  
Please be very clear on what we're saying: Christians are called to obey. It is actually not a call, it's a promise: those to whom the spirit indwells, there will be obedience. To what level is varying; it's a varying level. There'll also be struggle against sin. I love saying this because it throws people off: God expects you to sin. Otherwise, 1 John 1:9 would not be in the Bible.  
  
Justin Perdue: James 5:16: confess your sins to one another.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is how to identify if you're a legalist: if you are seeing that there are absolute requirements for you to perform in a certain way, basically you were to lose your justification or you do not have justification... There are two kinds of legalists: there are those who use the law to gain salvation, and there's those who use the law to maintain salvation. There's probably no one listening to this podcast, unless you maybe come from a Roman Catholic background, who is using the law to try and gain justification, your salvation. But there are plenty of people who use the law to try and affirm it or maintain it.  
  
Justin, what are your thoughts on that explanation of legalism?  
  
Justin Perdue: I agree with you. I have something else in my mind that's related to something you were saying even about antinomianism.  
  
At the heart of antinomianism too—and this is just my thought and observation here—is a lack of understanding and is a misunderstanding even of the gospel and what Christ has accomplished for us. I get this mainly from Romans 5 and 6\. A lot of times people think that the antidote to antinomianism, being against the law, is to preach the law—and I don't think that's right. I think that the antidote to antinomianism is actually to preach the gospel and to clarify who we are now in the Lord Jesus Christ. It's all about identity. That's how Paul responds. He realizes that the gospel that he has laid out in the first several chapters of Romans would lead a person to ask the question, "So, we can just sin now, right? Because not only has Jesus accomplished all these things for us, that the righteousness of God has revealed apart from the law, for all those who have faith in Christ and in God justifies the ungodly by faith. Not only is all that true, you just said that the law came in to increase the trespass, but we're sin-abounded, grace-abounded all the more. So, should we just sin?" Paul answers by no means. He doesn't say, "By no means because here's what the law says." He says, "By no means because here's who you are now: you have been united to the Lord Jesus Christ; you've been baptized into him. This is what your baptism was about. You've been united to him in his death. You in him, you died to the law. His death is your death. You've been united to him and his perfect life, and in his resurrection. This not only secures your resurrection, but means that even now, you are raised to walk in newness of life, and you are no longer under the dominion of sin, and you've become obedient from the heart. In other words, obey because you can. Obey because you want to, for the first time in your life. Remember who you are now; you're not who you used to be." That's his response. So I think that antinomian out there who is running as fast as he can away from the law, because he hates it, has not fully understood the work of Christ in his place, and has not fully understood his new identity, and who he is, and that he's not who he used to be.  
  
1 Corinthians 1:30, that Jesus has become to us wisdom from God, he is our righteousness, he is sanctification and redemption for us, he's secured everything, he's everything. It's in understanding that where we can actually look at the commandments of God and say those are good; they're not a burden.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He who began a good work in you will complete it. You're realizing that's a wonderful promise.  
  
Justin Perdue: It is a wonderful promise. The commandments are good because we can look to them and they no longer come across like a trip to the DMV, or they no longer come across like I've just been sentenced to the electric chair. They come across now as being good for me. This is actually the way that I want to live now, and this is how I'm called to live because of Christ and what he did for me. Now I am going to love my brothers and sisters, and aim to orient my life in such a way that I'm good for them. Then God, of course, gets the glory for that. I look at the commands and they're good. This is how we can understand the third use of the law, and it's not threatening in any way. As Calvin has said a long time before us, he calls the law our kind adviser in Christ.  
  
I think when the apostle Paul says in 1 Timothy 1, that we uphold the law as long as it's used lawfully, I think he's got all of this in mind; that we use the law lawfully in its first use, we preach it and all of its holiness to drive sinners to Christ, and then we uphold it in the Lord Jesus because it's no longer a threat to us, and we see it as good and not a burden.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm going to walk through the three intentions of how one understands the law, to summarize what Justin just said. The antinomian says no obedience is necessary and that's out of flat out ignorance. They're like, "No obedience. Do whatever you want. God's grace has got you covered."  
  
Justin Perdue: "Just love Jesus and you're good."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Paul says may it never be. Very clearly, he says, may that not be your attitude. Second attitude, legalism requires obedience out of fear of loss. You best obey or you will lose something; whether it be God's affection, your assurance—it could be a number of things. The legalist sees the requirements to obedience out of fear. The way the New Testament describes obedience to the believer is out of response to their justification and love.  
  
Here's a great example of this: we read this passage all the time, but I think it's helpful. 2 Peter gets done talking about love, mercy, kindness, dignity, holiness, and affection toward your brother. If you're not doing this, he says in 2 Peter 1:9, "For whoever lacks these qualities is so near-sighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins." Peter says your lack of obedience is your forgetfulness of your justification. You've been set free. You are cleansed. This is no longer who you are. He's pointing to your affections for Christ. 2 Corinthians 3: when we look at the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, you're transformed into His image. We look at the beauty of Jesus; that's our motivation to love our brother, to obey God's law.  
  
When I was in the independent fundamental Baptist world, I didn't fully understand what the law was. Sometimes when people hear us say law, they're thinking ceremonial law, they're thinking Old Testament law. What we mean are the moral commands given to the New Testament church like patience, meekness, mercy, loving, longsuffering, etc. These are the commands that we are referencing to, which are the things that horizontally, you do to your brother. Love God, love your neighbor.  
  
Justin Perdue: When we talk about the law, we're not talking about the ceremonial law, or the civil law that governed the nation of Israel—Jesus has fulfilled all that, and they've been abrogated in him. What we are referring to is God's moral law, that it could also be called the law of creation that God wrote into creation when he made the world. This is why Paul will use language like in Romans 5 of how death reigned from Adam to Moses even though the law had not been given, because all the giving of the law to Moses is the writing down of the moral law on tablets of stone. It already existed. The moral law transcends any kind of redemptive-historical epoch in that way. So we uphold the moral law, even the Decalogue, the 10 Commandments, as a guide for life. That's what we mean: the imperatives in the New Testament and also God's moral law that transcends, and those imperatives in the New Testament are really just an unpacking and a reflection of that moral law. I think there's a lot of confusion out there as to what we even mean when we say law,  
  
Jon Moffitt: For those of you that might be new to this, in our tagline, we say, "From a Reformed perspective". Some of you might be saying, "I've never heard it explained this way before. This is so new. Where are you guys getting this?" We believe it's very biblical, but the way in which it was brought to us to help us see this clearly is from men that have been defending God's word for hundreds of years, and then they end up writing clarification documents for us called confessions. Everything that we're describing for you, and being able to understand the difference between an antinomian and a legalist, and rightly dividing the law from the gospel, is understanding the categories of things like justification, sanctification, glorification that come to us from our confession. Justin and I both hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which is an adjustment from the Westminster. We would highly recommend either of those and find a true that uses these because it helps keep the Christian firmly resting on the sufficiency of Christ. When we're there, we find that rest, then obedience is not a burden.  
  
I tell people that if their church or their Christian faith has them exhausted, then you are not in alignment with Jesus when he says, "Come to me and I will give you rest. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." When I hear anyone who is preaching a burden upon someone, and they aren't giving them the relief of Christ, often that comes from someone who isn't understanding the historic faith which has been handed down to us, that which has been affirmed and fought for, and I would say recovered during the Reformation. This is why we like the word "reformed" and we're even starting a ministry called Semper Reformanda, "always reforming". We want to help people continue moving this Reformation forward.  
  
Justin Perdue: All of this language comes from the era of the Reformation. Some of this language would come from Martin Luther and our Lutheran friends as well. There is agreement between confessionally Reformed folks and our Lutheran friends about this distinction between law and gospel. I trust that pretty much everything that we have said today, our Lutheran friends would agree with, as we have tried to maintain the distinction between the law and the gospel, and even this idea that until one knows that he has been forgiven and counted righteous and absolved of guilt, there's no way in the world we could ever delight in the law of God.  
  
I agree with Jon. If you're in a church context where commandments and imperatives are made to sound threatening, scary, and burdensome, then there is a theological problem there. You know that you're on the right track when, as far as Christians are concerned when we're talking to one another in Christ, when imperatives, commands, and even God's law becomes a joy and not a burden because we know that the threat has been removed and the heaviness has been taken from us. Now we have been set free in the Lord Jesus Christ unto righteousness, and we get to do all of these good things that we actually want to do in our hearts. We have become obedient from the heart. In our inner man, we delight in God's law and we want to live in accord with it. That's how we talk as believers. It's a much, much different tone, and a much, much different posture. Sin is still taken seriously, and yet it's not just fear and dread and judgment all the time.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would dare to say that most people listening to this podcast have been in a legalistic context and struggle with legalism. One of the things that we do is a second podcast. Right now it's called the members' podcast, but we're going to be changing all of this very soon. Stay tuned for those. But in this next section, what I want to do is maybe help someone to process through this resting in Christ out of legalism, or maybe you've been listening to the podcast for a while and you're wondering how is it that you can help people.  
  
We did a podcast I'd recommend called The Slow Death of Pietism. We'll put it in the notes. You should listen to that. Processing this information is really tough—and it's everywhere. The mixture of the law and the gospel legalism is everywhere. The unfortunate thing happening right now is that people just throw out the word "antinomian". When we're trying to be biblical using a Reformed perspective, people say antinomian. No, that's not antinomianism, and actually you're promoting legalism. I don't like just throwing words back and forth. How about we just sit down and take the time to walk through these terms, and walk through the Bible, and make sure that we are not allowing our emotions to drive this conversation? We can look at things from the text and ask ourselves, are we hearing in our words, the words of Christ when he says, come to me and you will find rest? I will tell you the legalist and the antinomian—neither of them are finding rest there.  
  
Justin Perdue: One other thought, too, is that there is a tendency for people to swing on a pendulum from legalism to antinomianism, and there is a reason for that. We're going to talk about that, perhaps some in this area. There is a reason for that, and it's very clear.  
  
If you would like to listen to us talk about that and some other stuff in the members' podcast, and you're not even sure what the members' podcast is, you can find information about that on our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. We hope that a number of you make your way over to the members' area to continue this conversation with us. For those of you who may not, for whatever reason, be able to make it over there, we hope that this conversation even up to now has been clarifying for you and encouraging, and that it has pointed you to Jesus Christ and what he has accomplished in your place and has helped you see that the law of God is good because it no longer threatens or condemns you.  
  
It's always a pleasure for us to be able to speak with you in this way. We look forward to having another conversation.

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### Take Up Your Cross?

*Published: March 17, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/take-up-your-cross*
*Tags: 2021, Cross, NC, Take up your cross, Theology of the Cross*

"Take up your cross and follow me." What did Jesus mean when he said that? Is he calling us to hate our wives, kids, and parents? Is he calling us to be willing to suffer anything if we are going to be his followers? Is he laying down a test of radical discipleship? Or is he calling us to something else?  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about the heart behind Theocast, as well as some theological categories that will help us understand the Bible.  
  
Links:  
Episode on Law/Gospel: https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction/  
Episode on Triumphalism:https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/triumphalism/  
Episode Saint/Sinner: https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/are-we-both-saint-and-sinner/  
Faith vs Faithfulness: Theocast.org/primer  
  
[Members' Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-take-up-your-cross/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lUSPTkWMUI  
  
**Podcast Transcript**  
  
Coming soon...

---

### The Demands of the Gospel?

*Published: March 10, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-demands-of-the-gospel*
*Tags: 2021, Demands of the gospel, Gospel, Lordship Salvation, NC, Repent and Believe*

People like to talk about the "demands of the gospel." But does the gospel make demands of us? Must we forsake sin in order to come to Christ? Do we need to make Jesus Lord of our lives?  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about obedience and the uses of the law. What is the first use of the law? What is the third use? Are there ways these are often confused?  
  
[Members' Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-demands-of-the-gospel/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHUmO4eD8Lk

### **Podcast Transcript**

Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we are going to answer a few questions. Does the gospel make demands on us? Are there things that we need to do in order to be safe? Must we forsake sin in order to come to Christ? Do we need to make Jesus Lord of our lives?  
  
And then in the members' area, we talk about our obedience, and the first and third use of the law and how that factors into that conversation. If you don't even know what those things are, perhaps you should give it a listen. Stay tuned. We hope it's encouraging.  
  
It's pretty normal to hear people use language in the church—and by the church, I mean the evangelical church in the West, America, where we find ourselves. Normally, here people talk about the "demands of the gospel", to talk about the things that the gospel requires of us.  
  
When we can help it, we try not to bury the lead here at Theocast. We'll just go and say, right out of the gate, that we have very strong disagreements with that kind of language in terms of the demands of the gospel. It is our understanding from Scripture that the gospel, the good news about Jesus Christ, who he is and what he did for us, it is just that: it is news to be received, a message to be trusted, and it is a gift freely given. It is not something that we do things in order to earn on the front end, but it's not even something where on the back end, we do stuff that would have made us worthy to receive it in the first place.  
  
We'll go so far as to say, to just set this conversation up, that the law of God demands everything from us but it gives nothing. Whereas the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ demands nothing but gives everything. That sounds, off the charts, controversial to many people. I trust there may be people listening to this podcast right now because somebody encouraged them to give it a spin, and they're thinking, "What in the world did he just say? That the gospel demands nothing but gives everything? Is that true?"  
  
Jon Moffitt: My recommendation for the listener is, if you can, stay with us for a few minutes. We want you to hear us through because this is a subtle shift, and it can make it sound like we're heretics, but this is such an important conversation. I can't even explain to you how it can confuse so much.  
  
What we're having a conversation about really is the law and the gospel, and what happens when you mix the two. You get glawspel.  
  
I put a tweet out the other day that if you put "do" back into what God has done, you're taking the good part out of the gospel and it's bad-spel. It's just bad news. It's not good news. It's bad news. To take a little bit farther what Justin just said about the law and the gospel, the gospel, when we think about when it's being used, for instance in Rome, they would go and they would conquer a city and that city was now underneath the rule of Rome, and it's going to be receiving its taxes and warriors. They would send messengers back to Rome to declare the good news. "Hey, listen, we have just conquered a new city. It's now part of who we are." It's a military term, really, of the declaration of victory.  
  
When they're going back and declaring victory, they would've put demands on top of that. Whoever is declaring that would probably get in trouble saying, "Hey, by the way, we have victory, but the city we conquered—they have some stipulation." What? Then we didn't conquer them. Because if there are stipulations by the city, then we didn't win. It's not ours, we don't own it. When you hear the New Testament writers using it, we often forget context and we forget culture.  
  
Justin and I, just as a little teaser, we're about to do a podcast coming up soon on what it means to bear your cross, which is misunderstood, but there's a context. There's a local context of Roman and Jewish conflict between the two cultures' contexts. The gospel is the declaration of good news. I want to say, just as they would go and declare the good news of what victory they have won, it's speaking of history. This is done. It's over. We're declaring the news of the event.  
  
The gospel is the declaration of the news of the event of what has been done. When someone comes in and then uses this phrase, the "demands of the gospel", not only linguistically, but historically, that doesn't make any sense. It's almost like saying there are demands upon dead people. The dead must do this. No one would ever walk into a cemetery and say all these dead people have stuff they have to do. We don't use that language because it logically and scientifically doesn't make sense, but yet we do this to the gospel because we have confused the difference between the demands of God and the declaration of the good news of God.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to pick up on a couple of things, Jon. First, there are all kinds of things that God requires of us; His Word is full of them. Just to give a brief 30,000-foot flyover synopsis of what God requires, we could maybe sum it up this way: God demands sinlessness. He demands that we be without sin if we're going to live in His presence, and be with Him, and know eternal rest and blessedness. He also requires that we have a righteousness that is perfect, where not only have we not sinned in terms of sinlessness, but we have positively obeyed Him in every way at the level of thought, at the level of deed, desire, and what have you.  
  
We learn of these demands of God, that we keep His law perfectly, in a number of different places, including Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, where he talks about the righteousness that's necessary. Not only must it exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, but he'll even say in Matthew 5:48 that we must be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. We see the language of Paul in the letter to the Galatians, for example, where he cites the book of Moses, he cites Deuteronomy, he cites Leviticus, to make it plain that everyone who does not abide by everything that is written in the book of the law is cursed, and everybody who doesn't do everything in the book of the law is cursed.  
  
As the law says in Leviticus 18:5, those who do these things will live by them, meaning eternally. Those who keep the law will live. Think about Paul's language in Romans 2, where he says it's not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law who will be justified in God's sight.  
  
Think about James 2, where we're told that anybody who breaks the law in any way is guilty of breaking all of it. Because the one who said don't murder also said don't commit adultery. We could go on about this, but it is very clear that God makes all kinds of demands on us if we are going to live with Him. There are no exceptions allowed. There is no curve that God uses to grade us with it. Is perfection or failure in terms of the requirements of God.  
  
Now, everything that I have just described would fall under the category of law, in terms of what God requires of us. "Do these things and you will live." That is law. The question is, what is the gospel? What is gospel? Is it something where stuff is required of us or is the gospel the free gift of God, to use the language of Romans 6:23? Then what does he give us? My answer is that He gives us everything that He requires. He gives it freely. He gives it to us through the work of His son in our place that we receive by faith. Christ's sinless sacrifice takes away our sin, and Christ's perfect life of obeying the law in every way is counted to us as our record.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What Justin used is a great example; there is no gospel if there is no law.  
  
Justin Perdue: So true, brother. You've got to understand the law to understand the gospel,  
  
Jon Moffitt: Paul even says this: the law is given to show us our sin. Justin and I absolutely believe that the demands of God remain. They are there. You have to understand there's a difference between the demands of the law and then to say there are demands of the gospel.  
  
Justin Perdue: More specifically, we understand that the demands of God's moral law remain, and we could unpack that more at some point.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In a minute, we're going to get into the difference between the law as entrance into the family of God, and then the different uses of the law.  
  
Sometimes there are preachers, and it's very confusing to me and to those who are listening when they say the gospel demands this. I would say it's a poor use of words. Maybe they believe that if they do, it's heresy. I don't think that's what they believe. I think it's a confusion of what they're saying. Because to say that the gospel demands something is a heretical teaching that will lead you to damnation in hell. I'm just going to be frank on that. I'm not accusing people of heresy; I think they're confused in their language.  
  
The law demands obedience or you are condemned. The gospel does not condemn people. That's the thing about it. You have to understand the gospel does not lead people to the judgment seat of God; it relieves them from it. It rescues them from the judgment. Justin and I absolutely believe that if you don't preach the law, you cannot have gospel because the gospel is the relief of the law.  
  
Justin Perdue: Picking up on what you're articulating there. You even said the gospel sets us free from the law. In the gospel, we are given the fulfillment of the law by Christ in order that we might be delivered from the condemnation of the law.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We were having a very long conversation about Luke 14 and Mark 8 where Jesus comes in and just pounds the law. Just boom, boom, boom, boom. People are confused. They think it's gospel because Jesus is talking about following him, Jesus talking about being his disciple. They assume anytime Jesus mentions discipleship or following him, that's gospel. Paul makes it very clear as what the gospel is. If we aren't clear on what the gospel is, then you are going to live in the constant state of wondering, "How do I know that I'm justified before God?" This is the thing about it. If you go and read the book of Galatians, Paul wrote that entire book to just pry the law out of the gospel. He's just ripping it out as hard as he can saying, "How are you so confused? How have you been bewitched to think the good news requires something of you?" It can't; it is a declaration of what has been done.  
  
Justin Perdue: I was just going to comment briefly on the fact that there is so much confusion out there in terms of reading and understanding the words of Jesus, because people do assume that if Jesus spoke it, it must be gospel. Even the name of the four books—Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John—the gospel of, it's not that those are bad titles at all, but I think that can add to this confusion for some people where they assume that everything contained in it, thereby, is part of the gospel.  
  
What we need to understand is that the four accounts of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ are narrative. They're describing what he accomplished for us there, obviously recording some of the things that he taught and said, for sure, but they are recording the works of Christ that have accomplished redemption. It is, in particular, the redemptive work of Christ that is offered freely to sinners that is the good news contained within those accounts. Then that gospel is further unpacked by the apostles as they write the rest of Scripture in the New Testament.  
  
We need to understand that the majority of the words that came out of Jesus's mouth were actually law and not gospel. He was the greatest preacher and teacher of the law who has ever lived. He helped people see what the requirements of God really are and thereby he crushed people with the law that they might be driven to him who is their only hope of salvation and righteousness.  
  
For example, brother, when there's a lawyer who comes up to him—this is in pretty much all the synoptic gospels—comes up to him and says, "Good teacher, what is required to enter the Kingdom of God?" Or, "What are the greatest commandments?" Or, "What is the greatest commandment in the law?" Jesus says, "Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." People will say, "See? That's true religion there. Christ is telling us what we need to do." Yeah, he is telling us what we need to do, and that he is summing up the Law and the Prophets; he says so himself. He's summing up the first and second table of the 10 commandments; the first four commandments that tell us about how we're to love God and the latter six commandments to tell us how we are to love our neighbor. He sums that up with loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself. But that's not the good news because nobody has ever done any of that for one second of their lives. And so we need him to do that in our place, to give us that righteousness, and then we need him the sinless one to die for our sins and to bear the wrath of God, which we deserve. That's what he came to do. The distinctions that we're making right now might seem, at points, like it's minor, or a splitting of hairs, but these distinctions make all the difference in the world.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I put out on Twitter—and I think it tripped a lot of people up, which was an interesting conversation I had with some people—that repentance of sin cannot save you. People said, "You need to be more clear about what you're saying", and to be fair, how nuanced we are, can Justin and I say things in more clear, succinct ways? To both of those criticisms, we will say always. We're always trying to be clear on what we're saying, and very simple and simplistic, so that we're not misunderstood. Because you can hear things like, "repent to believe", or, "you need to repent for the kingdom is at hand". When you don't have a law-gospel understanding of the distinction between the demands of the law, the demands of the law are for you to repent. That is the demand of the law. Because if you don't repent of your sins, you are going to be held accountable for your sins. The problem is no one can repent of all their sins.  
  
Let me just put it this way. Justin, has anybody ever repented of not loving God with all their heart? Has anybody ever repented of that?  
  
Justin Perdue: Not adequately because that's true of us every moment we're breathing, and we're not continually repenting of it, so no, we've never done so adequately.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. What Jesus does is that he comes in and he takes repentance to a level that no one can do. When he says you think that you're not sleeping with a woman, that means you have kept the law, but if you had thoughts about it, you are guilty of it.  
  
What Jesus is always going after is the impossibility of righteousness. If you want to stand righteous before God and what Jesus is really calling us to, and I believe this with all of my heart, is a change of mind of where you rest your righteousness. Change where righteousness comes from and you will be saved.  
  
Justin Perdue: This is not to contradict anything that you just said, because you just said what I'm going to say and I hope I can be clear about this. If there is a demand of the gospel, it is to believe. Believe in Jesus Christ. Alongside that belief, as a part of that belief, I would include that change of mind that you just mentioned. That is repentance; God gives those things to us. The thing that God demands—belief in Christ—which means necessarily that I have changed my mind about God and His ways with us, and what He requires of me, and the way I might be reconciled to Him—God grants faith and repentance. He does in those senses. Even the one thing that we're told that we need to "do" with the gospel—trust Christ—is something that we can't do on our own. It's a gift of God that He gives us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When someone says the demand of the gospel is to believe, my response to that is I'm agreeing with you. It is news, and what you do with that news is up to you. In Luke 14, when Jesus says, "Those who have ears to hear, let them hear," and it says the sinners drew near, it's like when they heard that Jesus is they're way out of their own righteous failings, they come. Those who hear the gospel, and the Spirit has opened their minds and they see their need for repentance, they believe. There's not even the demand of belief.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm agreeing wholeheartedly. I put this up online recently, but I was having a conversation with the other guy on staff at our church. I said to him that the language that people will use like this about what we need to do in order to come to Christ is just so unhelpful and absurd. If you offer a cup of water to a man dying of thirst, what's he going to do with that? If you offer food to a starving person, what is he going to do with that? Do you need to lambast him and persuade him and convince him to drink that water or eat that food? No, because he has an awareness of what he needs. It's intuitive. He doesn't need it explained to him. He has in front of him the thing that he absolutely has to have and doesn't, and he takes it. That's what happens, to what you just said, Jon, when the Holy Spirit of God does His regenerating work in the life of a fallen sinner and we thereby, having heard God's Word, having been crushed by God's law, and we have Jesus held out to us, it is like that starving man being offered food. Give me Christ. That is the best picture that I know of to present the listener with in terms of what this actually looks like. It's not this whole yelling at people about what they need to do to repent and believe and the demands of the gospel. No, we're offering water to people who are dying of thirst. We're offering food to starving people. Sinners who are crushed by the law need Christ, and when the Spirit shows up, they receive and trust Him and cast themselves upon Him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To go back to the law-gospel distinction and what you were just saying, Justin, we were so confused with, Jesus says to the rich young ruler that all the man had to do was sell everything and come follow Jesus. You really believe that he would save himself? That is insane to think about because what you were saying is the law is now achievable. If you think the rich young ruler's problem was he wasn't willing to leave his money that's why he wasn't saved, you just thought the law is achievable. The law, taught properly, should crush a hundred percent of everyone. Everybody, said Jesus.  
  
Here's my problem: people who say, "Wow, you guys aren't preaching the gospel." No, you're not preaching the law because the law says it is 100% without failure. When someone says, "Unless you make Jesus your Lord, you cannot be saved," I agree. Yet, it needs to be a hundred percent Lord all the time without fail.  
  
Justin Perdue: If you're going to make Jesus Lord in that sense, it would mean that you love him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength all the time. Without fail. Every moment without exception.  
  
Let me just riff for a second on the whole rich young ruler passage. We've talked about this before in terms of the passage itself. I agree with you completely that what Jesus is doing in that moment is crushing that man with the weight of the law. This man thinks that he has loved God and neighbor, that he has done enough to merit eternal life. He says, "I've kept the commandments." But what does Jesus do? Jesus asks him to prove his love for God and neighbor and the man can't do it. Right. I'm in complete agreement with you there. But what kills me is that when guys who, I say this humbly, but when guys who will scream from the rooftops about faithful, biblical exposition and exegesis, then will come to a passage like that and will introduce something into the text that is flat out not there. They say, "What we need to be at least willing to do is give away everything for Christ."  
  
Jon Moffitt: You just lowered the law.  
  
Justin Perdue: First of all, where in the world did you get "willing" from the text? Because it's not in there. You pound the drum all the time that we need to be faithful to the text, but the word "willing" is nowhere to be seen on that page. Christ said do this if you would be perfect, and the man can't do it. That is the point. We can't do what God requires.  
  
The gospel is the free gift of God through faith, where we are counted righteous with the very righteousness of Jesus, and all of our sins are forgiven, and they are atoned for, and we are absolved of all guilt—and it is a free gift. Come and drink of the water without payment and without price. It's Isaiah 55\. It's Revelation 21\. I can't get away from the argument of Paul in Romans 2 and 3, where he makes it very clear that none of us live up to our own standards, let alone God's, because we judge each other for not meeting the standards that we hold out, and we can't keep our own standards either so we condemn ourselves. Then he talks about how God is a righteous judge who is impartial, who rewards those who do good with eternal life, and He punishes those who do evil with wrath and condemnation. Then he says the whole thing about how it is not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law who will be justified.  
  
But then, what does he go on to say? There's a huge problem because nobody's good. Nobody has kept the law. Which is why, beginning in Romans 3:21\. He tells us what the good news is. He says, "But now the righteousness of God has been revealed apart from the law, although the law and the Prophets bear witness to it—it is the righteousness of God by faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe." That is what we're discussing here; that God has all kinds of requirements, but none of us have ever kept His law. None of us have ever met the standard. So we are desperate for the work of Christ in our place.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Have you ever been out in public, and you get home and you realize that your zipper was down, or you had like a booger hanging and you realize no one there told you this embarrassing thing about you? Are you kidding me? All of these people saw this and no one ever said anything. When David says, "I love Thy law", I understand why he says that because when David looks into the law, he sees himself as God sees him, and it helps them keep a right perspective of who God is and who he is and how he needs to depend upon God. I never understood the phrase, " I love Thy law". I love the law of God. I love it because it keeps the gospel so fresh and clean and necessary for me. I can't move on from the gospel because the more I look at the law, I can see all of what's wrong with me. It keeps me on this dependent track of Christ where I am not going to depend upon my ability to do the law. The law exposes my frailty and says I have nothing. I have no righteousness. I love God's law for that.  
  
Justin Perdue: I love God's law because of God's gospel. We just said it earlier. You need to understand the law in order to understand the gospel. I would say that in order to really understand the law, you also need to be able to see and understand the gospel. You have to keep them distinct, but the understanding of the one aids your understanding of the other, and that's huge. So David can say, "I love God's law". We do too. We love God's law. His law is good and holy and perfect and wise, and we uphold it in every way. We preach it in all of its holiness to drive sinners to Christ. Then in the third use of the law since, we uphold God's moral law as the perfect guide for our living. But part of the reason that David could say in the Psalms, "I love Your law", part of the reason he can say that is because he also wrote Psalm 32: "Blessed it is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity." Not that there isn't any, but God doesn't count it to him. "And in whose spirit, there is no deceit."  
  
That whole thing is really abused. "You need to have an upright spirit in which there is no deceit." No, what does he mean? He goes on to say that, "When I kept silent, I didn't confess my sins, I wasted away, but then I acknowledged my sin to you and I didn't cover my iniquity. I said I will confess my transgressions to the Lord and You forgave the iniquity of my sin." That's gospel. It aided David in loving God's law. It does the same thing for us because we are not blending law and gospel, like you said earlier, that turns into this hodgepodge of terrible news where there can be no assurance and no comfort. But no, we say, "God, how holy and marvelous is your law, and God, if possible, how much greater even is your gospel in terms of what Jesus has accomplished for us in fulfilling that law and atoning for sin."  
  
Jon Moffitt: The reason, I think, a lot of the craziness of the law-gospel mixture and the demands of the gospel is you have people who are going after the lazy Christian, the Christian who isn't taking their fates there, or I would say the false converts who are sitting in churches and they don't even know that they're lost. They're coming in hard with the Bible and saying, "I'm going to be hard with the Bible and really hard with God's Word so people realize they got to take this seriously." I don't disagree with you. I have people in my church that I think that probably don't understand the gospel appropriately, that probably are not converts, but what's not going to save them is the harshness of the gospel. I don't understand why you would ever want the good news to be bad. That doesn't make sense. I'm not softening and saying someone can live however they want. No, I want the law to press in and suffocate them so much that they go, "Who will save me from this body of death? Thanks be to Christ."  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen, brother. It's insane that we would think what we need to do for the person who's Christian in name only, who may very well be unconverted, who's sitting in the assembly, "I need to make the gospel sound hard." What a terrible idea that is. "Let me make the gospel sound hard so that I can get people to take Jesus seriously." What that "nominal" person—nominal meaning unbelieving person who's in your assembly—he or she needs to be crushed by the holiness of God's law. He or she needs to be crushed with right law preaching, and then, having been crushed, he or she needs to be given the Lord Jesus Christ. "That incredibly heavy, unbearable burden of the law that you're feeling, let me tell you about the one who says he'll take that from you." Let me tell you about the One who says, "I have done everything necessary for you." His name is Jesus Christ. Cast yourself upon him and trust him. That's what we should say.  
  
Jon Moffitt: His name is wonderful.  
  
Justin Perdue: His name is wonderful. He is gentle and lowly of heart. He says he'll give us rest for our souls because he has borne the burden that we could never bear. To make the gospel sound hard in order to reach the nominal or the unconverted is bad theologically—and it is insane and it doesn't work. What we do is crush people with the law and then offer them Christ. The law drives them to him.  
  
I think a lot of people get concerned when they hear us talk like this, because they assume that we think that the law is only for showing us our sin and driving us to Christ, and that we don't care about how people live once they've trusted Jesus. That is not true. We care about how people live once they've trusted Christ because the Scripture is full of things about that. The law is helpful here in that the moral law of God that was written into humanity and creation—it's the law of creation, basically the law of nature that was then given to Moses on two tablets of stone—that law still serves as a perfect guide for our living, and we trust that the Holy Spirit conforms us to that as we trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and live life in the community of the church.  
  
This needs to be stated: once a person is in Christ Jesus, the law is no longer threatening. The teeth have been taken out of the law. It no longer is a weight and it's no longer condemning. It is a joy, actually, and we can delight in it and we can say, "Yes, it's good. I want to live that way, and God gives me grace that I may."  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's what Paul means. There is no condemnation. You cannot be condemned.  
  
Justin Perdue: What ends up happening in this whole confusion of law and gospel, people mean well, because they want folks to take Jesus seriously, and they want people to take seriously the exhortations and imperatives that are in the Scriptures. Okay, fine. There are things that flow out of the gospel, namely a transformed life, but those things that flow out of the gospel are never the gospel itself. We say that all the time, but it can't be said enough. That makes all the difference in the world.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Justin, I think that one of the things that we can talk about in our community members' podcast is the difference between the demands of the law and how it crushes us so we enter into God's rest, not using the law, and then how God reorients the law, or I would say the uses of the law, and use it for the sake of our loving our brother. There are uses of the law. People often confuse the demands of the law versus the use of the law. We'll explain what we mean by that.  
  
Justin Perdue: John Calvin uses language that's very helpful about the law, for those of us who are in Christ Jesus. For the Christian, Calvin says that God's law is our kind adviser. If that sounds foreign or crazy to you, like you've never thought about the law being your kind adviser, then this podcast that we're about to do in our members' area is something that you should give a listen to. You should check it out.  
  
If you wanted to listen in on this conversation and you're not yet a member here at Theocast, we would encourage you to go over to our website and learn more about our membership. Theocast.org is the URL where you can find that good information. This podcast that we're about to do is an opportunity for us to have a kind of family conversation. We're talking to one another in a way that's safe and comfortable, and we're trying to encourage one another as we continue in this pilgrimage of the Christian life where we're seeking to rest more in Jesus. If that sounds like something you're interested in, head over to the website, check it out and you can figure out how to be a part of this conversation and join the Reformation along with us.  
  
Thank you for listening to this episode. We hope it was encouraging for you and that, in understanding this distinction between the law and the gospel, it leads to greater levels of freedom, rest, and peace for you in light of what Christ has done for you. Grace and peace.

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### Chasing Goosebumps

*Published: March 3, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/chasing-goosebumps*
*Tags: 2021, Emotional Preaching, Emotionalism, Feeling close to God, NC, Spiritual High*

Many of us have spent our Christian lives chasing after experiences. We live in pursuit of spiritual highs and that "first-time feeling." There is something different and better. Jon and Justin talk about what that is.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys talk about pietistic, emotionally-based preaching, as well as the armor of God and the Lord's Table.  
  
[Members' Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-chasing-goosebumps/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i24rnCEQXgY

### **Podcast Transcript**

Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, Justin and I are going to discuss chasing goosebumps—those spiritual highs that you have after personal devotion time, or a worship service, or evangelizing. We're looking for that next spiritual significance where we feel close to God, and we know that His presence is near.  
  
Why is that dangerous? And how can that actually hurt our assurance and distract us from the gospel? We hope you enjoy it. Stay tuned.  
  
Justin, talk to us a little bit about this subject; why it's important, and why we chose it.  
  
Justin Perdue: This podcast exists to try to set people free from all kinds of bondage and to pull people away from things that are less than good onto the only sure foundation, which is Jesus Christ and his righteousness and work for us. One of the things that we can often chase after, and frankly be enslaved by, is the pursuit of what I might call spiritual highs, where we chase after experiences.  
  
People need to have that category in their minds that sometimes we need to be delivered from things that, in our experience, actually feels good, but then can become really bad for us because we're always measuring how we're doing up against how we felt that one time: the experience that we had, that one church service, or whatever it may be. Then it introduces all of these thoughts and concerns into our brains, and we become hyper-introspective about it, and we become anxious, or worried, or concerned about various things because we're not feeling how we once felt about Christ. "I'm not doing as well today as I was yesterday," or, "This week at church just is not thrilling my heart like I was thrilled last week or that service that happened two months ago." Or whatever it is. That can become a very heavy burden and it can become something that is a form of bondage, as I referenced just a moment ago. We're hoping to have a reasonable conversation about this and not only point out where this comes from, but also pull people onto something better as we try to think reasonably about the Christian life, and the fact that we're fallen, and that we don't always feel the way we should. That's going to come to bear in us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When many of those who are listening came to Christ, maybe you came from a background where you were in sin, or you didn't grow up in a church background and you, in that conversion moment, that moment when you saw the Holy Spirit open your eyes and your sin before you, and you saw that Jesus saved you, that it's unreal and it's an otherworldly experience to know that the Holy Spirit has transformed you. I know that many have this emotional moment where they truly experienced the gospel in a way that transformed their life. They were a different person going forward. Then you see this person and they're involved in everything, they can't get enough of the Word of God. Uh they're at soul-winning there, it's like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. My dad used to describe these people as getting a good dose of the Holy Ghost. I guess I never got one of those. That was never me.  
  
What ends up happening down the road, a year down the road, is things start to slow down and that spiritual high is no longer there. What they're looking for is that next high. It's that next "How do I get back to when I was really close to Jesus, when I was first saved? How do I maintain that experience?"  
  
When I grew up in the Baptist world, you always want to have fresh blood in your church because it keeps the excitement level up. Basically, new converts keep everybody excited. When you are always looking for that next spiritual moment that's going to throw you back up to where you feel like God is the most important thing in your life, nothing else matters, you're floating on air. When you can't find it and years start passing by, it creates all kinds of theological problems. It creates all kinds of assurance issues. Then you start seeking it in books and in movements: you have the radical movement and then you have the Charismatic movement. Every denomination and every theological bend has these goosebumps moments they want for you to experience so that you can have that next euphoric high.  
  
Justin Perdue: There's a reason why it's unusual anymore for somebody to just hold the same theological positions for a long period of time. It's unusual for people to just be members faithfully in the same church for a long period of time. Not only is it something where we grow bored, but I think in some ways, people get worried about their spiritual condition because they're not feeling it the way that they once were, or they need something different so that they can get excited and geeked up about it.  
  
Sometimes this chasing experience can actually lead us into theology and practices and stuff that are less than helpful. That may be true, but I want to back up a little bit and talk about emotions for a second, and the fact that emotions in and of itself is not a bad thing. Jon and I would both uphold the fact that part of being made in God's image, a small part of that anyway, means that we are emotional creatures and emotion, in and of itself, is a good thing. The issue for us is that we are fallen creatures, and that means that every aspect of our personality has been affected by sin—that includes our emotions. Because our emotions are fallen, and because we are inherently self- interested and the like, and lack perspective, our emotions are not always trustworthy. We have to acknowledge that if we're going to make any sense of this conversation.  
  
To feel really good about God, or to feel really good about Jesus and what he has done for you, is a wonderful thing. Praise the Lord for those moments when we realize that there are going to be plenty of times, as a fallen human being, as a Christian who is in Christ living in a fallen world, that you and I are not going to feel the way that we should. We've got to have something, by way of a sure foundation, that is bigger and much more robust than how I'm feeling on any given day.  
  
As a matter of fact, I know in our church, we often welcome people to service acknowledging that they've come in feeling any kind of way, and that the only thing that's consistent about us is that we're inconsistent in terms of how we feel. What we're trying to do is look to something that's outside of us that can give us hope and peace before the Lord—and his name is Jesus. Thank God.  
  
As good as the goosebump moments are—and they're great. Who wouldn't want them? You would be wrong to say that you shouldn't want to feel great about Christ. Of course, you should want to feel great about Christ; moved and just gripped. Those moments are wonderful and praise God for them. But also, praise God that Christianity and the gospel is about more than goosebumps, because if it's about goosebumps, it's sinking sand. It's that quagmire where the more we flail about chasing after it, the further we sink down in it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It matters where the goosebumps are coming. You and I have watched a really great movie and at the end of it, we think that was fantastic. I can remember the first time I went to the theater and I watched _The Village_. I'm not going to ruin it for anybody, but there's that aha moment at the end of the movie. If I were to go back and watch it again, it won't have the same effect on me. We experience this closeness and this emotional high where you can feel the tingle, your heart is exploding, your eyes are watering—and that could be caused by a thousand different things. It could be caused by an abortion video, when we start thinking about how kids are being murdered and it breaks your heart. Or it could be about God healing somebody from cancer. You're watching this video and it's just bringing this on. There are a million and one things that cause us, as humans, to feel this emotional drive that comes out of us. The danger is that if you go to some worship services, they're going for that—the mood, the lighting, the music, the transitions, and the words are all designed to get you into this emotional state where you can experience the presence of God. And it is an experience because of the music, the words, the emotions, the smoke, and all that kind of stuff.  
  
On the flip side, I also know people who have had this experience when they repent of sin. There's this weight that's off of them and they have this warmth theologically, where they can feel the presence of God—not real—but they understand His joy and they understand the love that He has for them.  
  
Justin, you and I have given experiences on theological shifts where I can remember the moment I started to understand the covenantal God, who has this unmovable, unshakable love for me. That was an emotional experience for me to realize that I had never seen the faithfulness of a covenantal God. It was one of those moments where I was brought to tears thinking of how much my God has proven His love for me.  
  
Justin Perdue: I've been a Christian for a while, by God's grace, but I've had several points in time, even over the last 15 years as my theology has continued to be refined, like you were saying, where you come to a greater and deeper understanding of Christ, the gospel, God and His faithfulness, our security, and all these kinds of things. It is like being born again. We're not saying either that you won't have things land on you anew.  
  
This is not trying to take us off down a trail either, but there are plenty of times for myself where, in the ebbs and flows of my life, I'll be reading something or I'm in a service in my own local congregation, or I'm preaching even, and I am very gripped and affected by what's being said or what we're doing. It's not because I haven't heard it before, but because it's landing on me. We're not trying to discourage people from treasuring those moments and from thanking God for those moments, but what we're trying to do is help people think through the fact that their love, their joy, it's going to ebb and flow all the time, and that there has to be something immovable and unshakable that does not change that would be the anchor of their soul.  
  
Jon Moffitt: People have different emotional tendencies. A good friend of mine who's a pastor here in Nashville... I think I've seen him cry once in the nine or 10 years that I've known him. I'm not a crier, but recently, just with the amount of pain and suffering that's going on in our church, I get up there and I see these people's faces when I start preaching, and my eyes start watering up. I can just imagine how painful it is for them. I don't want it to do that. It's not like I'm looking for it to do that, but you can't take personality.  
  
I've seen this where you have this gregarious, outgoing, very emotional personality, and that person is considered to be righteous, holy, and close to God because they're always emotionally involved in what they're doing. Then I have other people in our church who... the blip doesn't move from a straight line. Their face never changes, the expressions... they're not loud, they're not quiet—some could say they are flatlined, and that they need to get in line with who God is and get excited about it. I talked to this person and I thought, "This guy loves Christ." He is doing more for the body of Christ than most people are. He just doesn't want anybody to know about it. He doesn't need the emotional highs and lows to make himself feel significant within the body of Christ because he understands Christ is significant. He is the one we focus on, not my emotional highs and lows. He doesn't pursue it that way.  
  
Justin Perdue: Not only can we not trust our own emotions—I think that's very clear in terms of being our guide—we also cannot trust our evaluations of other people's emotions. We just got to get to that right now. For us to look around and assess how we think our brothers and sisters are doing in the faith, based on the countenance, on their faces, or based upon how joyful we assess them to be during singing—that is just absurd. First of all, you have no idea what's going on in that person's life, and what they may have endured and encountered yesterday or this morning before they showed up to this service. Everybody's wired differently in terms of how they express themselves, how they communicate, and how they look.  
  
That's just a public service announcement to help you be a better church member, and to love the saints in your congregation better. Quit doing this evaluation of each other's emotional state and what that means about their affections for Jesus. Because, like you said, there are all kinds of times you talk to people that seem to be quite still on the service, but it actually is very deep underneath—and the current is there. It just is not as much whitewater on the surface as we might surmise there to be.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm going to throw them a throw one at you. What is the difference between an emotional Christian goosebump moment and biblical joy? What's the difference?  
  
Justin Perdue: I've heard people contrast, for example, happiness and joy. I don't really want to do that right now; happiness is circumstantial, joy is transcendent. That's not what we're necessarily talking about here. I think that what we're talking about there, biblical joy, or even though a word that we use often which is biblical rest in Christ is more of something that I would call like a resting heart rate posture that is ongoing, that's always there. Our experience of how joyful we feel is going to be all over the place. Certainly when we say biblical joy, it's not like a temperature check like how am I doing now? How am I doing in an hour? How am I doing tomorrow? That would be an unhelpful way of thinking about biblical joy. Biblical joy is very much tethered to rest and peace, that all is tethered to Jesus and what he has done for me. Because Christ never changes right, and his work for me never changes, I can have that resting joy and peace in Christ all the time though I might feel quite differently about Christ, or about my Christian life, or about my life wholesale—depending on what moment of the day you talk to me. But underneath all that, there is something that doesn't change and that has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with Christ. That's how I would begin to answer that question.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Paul demands joy. He says be joyful in everything. Then Jesus promises joy. I look at that and I say that joy is not circumstantial, but we can't connect it to emotions. The joy of the Lord is my strength means... I love how you rephrased it. Sometimes, it's easier to say the rest of the Lord is my strength. I can find rest and comfort. I could even say the comfort of the Lord is my strength.  
  
Joy has the sense of rest and comfort because it's not based upon a circumstance, it's based upon a person, which is Jesus. So, when we think about emotional highs and lows, I think, biblically speaking, Paul and David can make these references because they are connecting them to something that's outside of our current circumstances, no matter how I'm feeling emotionally and no matter what's going on with me physically or emotionally. When Jesus says, "My joy can be in you and it can be complete," it's not just abstract joy, and it's not portions of joy, Jesus says, "The complete full joy of myself can be inside of you." And he says that when you have love for one another, that's how you tap into it.  
  
What's interesting to me is that if you're going to pursue these moments of, I would say, safety and comfort and rest, it is not connected to actions like music, or I would even say things like reading your Bible, or these emotional prayers that we have. I read a book, unfortunately, when I was in seminary, that convinced me that if I got on my knees at four in the morning and just would not get up, and begged for the presence of God to be around me, and that I could be aware of it and worship Him, then that's what was going to give me the energy for the day to obey and continue in my day. I would wake up at four in the morning, and I can remember the very first week I did that, it was like an experience I had never had. The emotional high, the crying, the joy that I felt. Then after that one week, I couldn't get it to come back no matter how hard I tried, no matter what I read. It wasn't enough because that initial experience I had, it was like the shekinah glory was in my living room, and it went away and I couldn't figure out why.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm resonating with you, not in terms of the particular piece of that book and praying at four in the morning, but I've said this many times: the most common prayer I pray is "God help me." I may be asking Him to help me about any number of things: to not sin, to continue to give me faith, to protect me from doubt and unbelief.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just to put some words to that, Justin, the three things that I almost pray for daily are mercy, grace, and wisdom, because those were the three things Jesus had asked for liberally. Mercy, grace, wisdom.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even with respect to feelings and how I feel about God, Christ, or the things of God. I could be wrong in saying this, but I'm going to go ahead and throw it out because I think it's legit: we, in this life, are meant to know, confess, see, and feel our need for Christ. We are meant to know that we are debtors to grace and in need of grace all the time. I think one of the ways that the Lord reminds us of that consistently is in this area, because we don't often feel like we should. That forces us to remember that we are dependent and we are in need. I need God's grace. I need His mercy. I need His power. I need His help if I'm even going to feel like I should. To find ourselves praying for this, not chasing highs, but for us to pray that God would give us grace and that He would help us and that He would stir our hearts, I think it's a reasonable thing to ask the Lord for and to see our need of it in this life is not bad, as we are not fully sanctified yet, and we haven't been resurrected yet.  
  
I want to pivot slightly with an anecdotal illustration of what we're getting at. In many churches—it doesn't have to be the mega church context but the illustration I'm going to give is kind of that—this is not unique to me to make this observation either. I'm not uniquely brilliant in saying this, but how many times have you been to a church service where we walk in the space, and maybe it's an inviting space, and there's the screen up front and it's got the countdown for the service to start. There's the clock and it's ticking down, and the music is playing with maybe three minutes to go. The music ramps up and the lighting changes, and then with a minute it ramps up even more, and then for the last 10, 20, 30 seconds, there's like this driving kick drum, and we're about to start this thing. Right on cue, the worship leader, with this grand gesture, grabs the microphone and he's like, "How y'all feeling out there?" I've seen this. I trust many have experienced this.  
  
My thoughts on that are several: one, what kind of New Testament question is that? How am I feeling? Depending on the day, you're going to get any different kind of answer. Maybe today, my wife and I had a fight in the car on the way to church, maybe I spilled my coffee all over this or that or the other, maybe I've just got a job promotion. But in part, a lot of times, for me, I come into a service and I'm burdened and distracted. I've got a lot going on. My initial thought to "How y'all feeling?" is I feel like a miserable wretch, so what do you have for me? Because if you're asking me how I'm feeling, that's a pretty hopeless thought. What we're trying to do is demonstrate the foolishness of that kind of question and that kind of approach to a church service or certainly the Christian life.  
  
I think we can certainly agree that rather than asking me how I feel, ask me something that's somewhat more significant than that: ask me what I know to be true. Ask me what I know to be true most pointedly about Jesus Christ and his work in my place, his atoning death, the satisfaction that he has made for my sins, the fact that in his death, I too have died to the Law, that he has provided me with righteousness. That's all I could ever need. He is the ground of my peace and assurance, not just today, but forever and ever. Ask me what I know about that, and then we're getting somewhere, and then we might actually have something to sing about, rather than this really this amorphous, free form, fleeting, ever-changing thing called “how I'm feeling”.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's hard because you see people moving the needle, and moving the experience, more and more and more to make sure that we're not distracting from that experience. I tell our congregants, our elders, and our deacons all the time that we don't want to distract from the reason we're there, which is fellowship in the Word. If there's anything that's going to cause a distraction from that, then let's do our best to make sure that the temperature is set right...  
  
Justin Perdue: The space is reasonably inviting and not miserable.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If I'm preaching and people can't hear me, then how are they to hear the Word? So, don't hear us say that those things don't matter.  
  
Justin Perdue: That sounds like something in Romans 10: how are they going to hear?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Exactly. What we're getting at is that I understand why people are turned off by church often, because they get exhausted by the fact that they're going there and everyone else around them is jumping up and down, everybody else is excited. Or even if you're in a conservative church, everybody has a smile on their face, everybody seems to be clean cut and good, and they are demonstrating that they have this joy that you don't have.  
  
Justin Perdue: I just kind of lambasted the mega church attractional model. Let me go after the traditional model real quick. Even the whole classic... if somebody gets up in the pulpit and greets everybody and says, "Isn't it wonderful to be in the house of the Lord?" Two thoughts on that. One, if you're asking me how I feel about being in the house of the Lord at this very moment, I don't know what I'm going to say to you because it depends on the week. But if you're asking me, do I know that it's good to be in the house of the Lord? Yes, I do. But those two things are very different. I assume that you're talking to me about what I know and not what I feel, but a lot of times, the way that it comes across is I should feel so warm and fuzzy about just being here. I should feel so good about just being here in God's house. I'm feeling nothing. I'm afraid that if you told me that one of my children had died, suddenly I wouldn't feel anything, because that's how jacked up I am emotionally. I certainly don't feel all kinds of warm and wonderful things about being in the house of the Lord today. Again, there better be something bigger than that for me.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. Something outside of circumstance. It's interesting you should say that, Justin. Not to talk about what we do at our services, but you and I are very sensitive to the fact that we know who is walking into our context. Every Sunday, I say to people, "Most of you, if not all of you, have walked in with shame and guilt for the failures of your week this week. We want you to know one simple truth: everyone stands for an equal need of God's grace. I don't care how you feel or what you've done, you need God's grace." Then we go into a prayer of confession, and after we confess our sins and receive forgiveness, I tell them, "Now we have reasons to worship our God, because He just forgave you of your sins." That has nothing connected to your emotions. No matter how you feel about that or not, you have one truth that remains: your God, who loves you, is good with you not based upon you. That is more important than how you feel about Him or how you have treated Him this week, because the circumstances shall remain the same: God saves sinners.  
  
I'm going to change this to something that is a really hot topic. I was shepherding somebody recently for this very purpose. They were emotionally out in every way, shape, or form; they weren't excited about church, they weren't excited about their faith, they weren't excited about their Bible reading, and they said they've been just dry. That's the way they described it. "I've been dry for two to three years and I just feel burned." When I started peeling back the layers, eventually what I got them to admit was they actually not only worked dry, but they were resentful towards God. They were angry at Him. I even got them to say, "Yeah, I kind of hate Him." Because they feel like they had put all of this energy and effort into God, and at moments, there were these high points where they were discipling people, they were being discipled, they were reading their Bible, and it was like jumping out of the page at them, they were enjoying church, and then circumstances changed, life changed, moved. All of a sudden, the things that used to bring this moment of significance weren't doing it anymore. The comment was, "I felt like God moved away. He moved. He went away. He distanced himself from me and I don't know why." They were equating God's affection, God's concern, and God's love to their emotional experience of God. The moment they weren't experiencing it through the different methods that they had set up, they assumed God was the one who moved away and they didn't understand why. It just drained them to the point where they didn't want to try anymore.  
  
This is what I said to them, and this is going to sound funny and I'm going to have to explain myself. I said, "You're not allowed to read your Bible for a year."  
  
Justin Perdue: Oh my gosh. Here we go.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Of course, they looked at me and said, "Why? If I just told you I'm dry, and I just told you I'm emotionally out of it, why would you say the one thing that could bring me back in is the one thing I can't do?" And I said, "Because that's the one thing that caused all of this problem. You just admitted that you go to the word of God and you're more depressed when you come away from it than when you entered into it. If the cause of your depression is an action, then maybe we should think about that for a moment."  
  
It was at that moment I was beginning to walk them towards the firm foundation of where they found their significance and where they found their hope was not in Christ; it was in what they were doing for Christ. Not only that, as they went into the Word, they were looking for that moment where there was this connection between them and God, and they were going to find that verse that was going to bring this connection back to this emotional experience that they're going to have. God's Word is not designed to do that; it's not designed to do that at all, yet we treat it in that way that we're looking for that golden nugget of the day. They're chasing the Bible down to find that goosebump for the day to give them the energy to say, "God's good with me because I experienced something."  
  
Justin Perdue: We talked about this in an episode we did months ago called _How Not to Read the Bible_, and one of the ways we said not to read it is this way, chasing after some experience, some high, chasing after a feeling that you would take away from the Word. There are any number of ways that we turn good things like Bible reading into bondage and slavery, for sure. What we all need to be able to do, or what we need done for us, is to have people who love us enough to recalibrate our thinking on these things. Part of it is we need to learn how to read the Bible in the first place and understand it legitimately, in terms of its entire redemptive historical framework and everything.  
  
The way you framed it was, you're exactly right, that you are not so much concerned about Christ or what he's done for you. You're concerned about what you're doing for him. Whenever that becomes your focus, there's no way that you're going to ever have peace and rest. Far from it. In fact, you're going to be exhausted. You're going to be beat to death, and you're going to have the experience of this person. Eventually, you're just going to wear out because you're going to think you are not doing enough. You never could do enough.  
  
Then you get frustrated with Jesus or with God. He is not the one requiring these things of you; you are requiring these things of you. I feel like we may be headed in a completely different direction here. I'm not trying to do that, but it is related very much to the things that we're discussing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To go back to it real quick. The reason I mentioned something so pointed is that...this has happened at my members class this last Saturday. I was talking about Bible reading and I said, "How many of you moms are so exhausted by the fact that when you wake up and you turn your head to the left, and there's already three-year-old there staring at you before you even get out of bed, and you're thinking there's no way you're going to crack the Word this week? Now you're feeling guilty because you haven't spent time in the Word, you're exhausted, you're tired, you're angry, and you are feeling theologically and spiritually insignificant." That is not the design of God's Word, and if that's what it's causing, we are way off here.  
  
Justin Perdue: I agree. If it's this work to perform, if it's this thing that I must be doing in order to grow and be sustained in the faith, and if I'm neglecting this... the perfect example, like you said, is the mom with young kids; I'm married to one. I can't tell you how many conversations we've had over the course of years where she has been discouraged by not knowing how in the world to read the Bible or read theology or whatever it is. There are just too many immediate demands upon her, and these things are primary. You ought not neglect your children or your family, and things of that nature. Any kind of church context or Christian context that would say to somebody, in that circumstance, that you are failing, there's something clearly wrong.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm exhausted, I'm beat down, I'm emotionally drained, and what's the question they ask them? "Well, have you been spending time in the Word?" No, where's your foundation. Where's your hope?  
  
Justin Perdue: You're exactly right. People tell you they're exhausted, and then you basically pivot and say, "Well, what are you doing? What have you been doing for the Lord?" " You're already tired. Let me give you some things to do," said Jesus never. Not really related exactly to what we're talking about at this very moment, but it is related to our topic today.  
  
This is somewhat anecdotal as well: I remember a service recently, in the last few months at CBC, and in the message, I referenced a quote from John Newton that I will reference on a semi-regular basis, where he says something like this. This is going to be close to exact. "In private, I am cold and lifeless as usual, but He permits me to speak for Him in public." That's good because here's a man who's well-known relatively, well-known in the last few hundred years of Christian history—maybe more as a hymn writer than as an Anglican minister—but nonetheless, this man was a minister and he speaks about the reality of his private life, how he is cold and lifeless as usual, but that God permits him to speak for Him in public. That's a moving thought to me as a preacher, I trust it is to you as well, Jon, but in the comments that I made around that and speaking about how we often don't feel it and whatnot. There was a brother in our church, a very good friend of mine on our staff, who came up to me after the service and said, "Brother, thank you for that. Because I was sitting here all morning," and he knows this stuff and he would agree completely with what we're saying, but he said, “I’ve been sitting here all morning just flat out not feeling it. I'm cold. I'm apathetic. I'm not stirred. I'm not warm. I've just got nothing." He was mindful of how he was doing, and he's grieved by how he's doing, but then he says he can't do anything to change it. Then for whatever reason, the Lord used these comments to, just in one sense, comfort him, but then also stir him that this is the normal Christian experience, that we so often don't feel it. We lament the fact that we don't feel it. We feel powerless to change it. But what we need in that moment is not, "You need to feel this way about Jesus." No, we need to be told that all is well because of Jesus, and that we will struggle, and we often won't feel as we should. But one day we will, one day we'll feel as we should all the time, and the struggle will be no more, and because of Christ, we know that that's where we're headed. In the meantime, he's got us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to say that your significance should never be found in how you feel about God. This is what chasing goosebumps is. We want to feel significant, and I will tell you, the Bible tells you how you can feel significant. It absolutely tells you. It says to love God and love each other. Peter legitimately says you're ineffective when you are not showing gentleness and patience and meekness and kindness and forgiveness. So, your effectiveness in your relationship to God has nothing to do with your emotional highs and emotional levels.  
  
Justin Perdue: Peter says that ineffectiveness comes from forgetting the gospel and what Christ has done for you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. And if you aren't doing these things, he doesn't say drum up some emotional high. He says to remember that you have been cleansed.  
  
Justin Perdue: Remember your status. Remember who you are.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You have been set free from the bondage. So, the significance of your emotions is if you have an emotional high, that doesn't become the new watermark.  
  
The other day when we had welcomed a new child into our congregation, Hazel, and she's just adorable, and I love her, and I love her family. As a pastor, that was an emotional moment because I was like, "Wow. The Lord gave us a new child to love, to care for, and to administer the gospel to." Then I'm going to go sit next to a man who just lost a child. The emotions there are pain and suffering and sorrow. I cannot allow either one of those to dictate my significance before the Lord, because my significance before the Lord is wrapped up in His arms, not mine. It's wrapped up in His affections, not mine. God has deep affection, so deep for me, and so deep for Justin, and for every listener who loves and trusts in the Lord's promises. His affections are so deep for He says, "I sacrificed my Son. That is how much affection I have for you." You cannot get any more significant affection than a man laying down his life for you. He doesn't say in return, in order for you to receive this, you must have the same level of affection. He says, believe it and it's yours. That's what stabilizes it.  
  
Justin Perdue: For sure. I want to make a brief comment about effectiveness because you brought up 2 Peter 1\. A lot of times people will act, think, and even accuse us: "How are people ever going to be effective unless we directly exhort them toward effectiveness, or unless we say things that are emotive on the face of them?" Or whatever it may be. My answer to that question is that's the wrong question, but let me speak to what your concern is. In heralding Jesus Christ and what he has done for us, and in pointing people to him only, we are actually giving people the one thing that will make them effective, and not just make them effective tomorrow, but will sustain them in their effectiveness.  
  
The proof is in the pudding in this, too. You can motivate people with emotion, fear, guilt, and all these other things for a period of time, but people will eventually absolutely crash against the rocks and will be done. It just can't be sustained, but Christ is able to sustain, and we can remain effective and fruitful in his church because he is the one who ultimately carries us along in that work.  
  
I know that we're running low on time in the regular episode here. A couple of things that, maybe for the members' episode or the episode that we're about to do for our membership, would be to talk about feelings and the Lord's Table. Maybe. Because that's a very feeling-driven moment. I know it was in my experience. Then I also may drop a little bit of a Horatius Bonar gold from his book, _God's Way of Peace: A Book for the Anxious_.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I also want to speak on preaching that is emotional, and I'm not talking about Charismatic. I'm actually talking about Calvingelicals, those who consider themselves to be Calvinistic, and how they preach in such a way that if you don't have these emotional experiences, as they are pressing you towards, then you should question your salvation. I've got some words of wisdom for those of you who may have sat under that type of preaching. We're going to liberate you from that.  
  
For those of you that don't know, this is kind of our family meeting. For those who have joined in and want to support Theocast and what we're doing, our membership is a way for you to join in on the team and get this message out. It's encouraging. We are seeing more pastors join in on what we're doing. We are seeing more churches planted. We have several more in the works and all of that is because of our members who come along onboard and support us monthly. If you wanna learn more about that, you can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com.  
  
Stay tuned, members. If you're not using the private podcast feed, go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members. You can get it there and put it in your favorite podcast app, and listen to all of our podcasts, members' and regulars right there from your phone. I don't know if you want that much Theocast, but it's available.  
  
We'll see you next week.

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### Christian Liberty? The Weaker Brother?

*Published: February 24, 2021 | Author: Jeremy Brasher*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/christian-liberty-the-weaker-brother*
*Tags: 2021, Alcohol, Christian Liberty, NC, Weaker Brother*

What is the purpose of your sanctification? Who is it for? (Hint: It's not for you.) We survey a number of passages from the New Testament to demonstrate the point of our growth in Christ.  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about how freeing it is to realize your sanctification isn't for you.  
[Members' Podast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-christian-liberty-the-weaker-brother/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xscf0J4Hmhk

### **Podcast Transcript**

Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Question for you: what is the weaker brother? If you have spent any time in evangelicalism, you have no doubt heard the weaker brother discussed. What is Paul talking about when he uses that language? We're going to go there today in the regular episode. We're going to talk also about Christian liberty; is Christian liberty really about don't drink, don't smoke, don't cheat, or is it actually about something far greater and something much more wonderful? We're going to talk about that, too. Then in the members' episode, we're going to talk about how we would go about setting someone free when their conscience is improperly bound. We hope that this conversation is helpful to you as it is encouraging. Stay tuned.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Today's a pretty important conversation. I think that we are going to make a lot of people uncomfortable, potentially make some people angry—not purposely, not our goal. The real point of the podcast is to liberate some people from some bondage and burdens they've been carrying so that they can be more meek and patient and kind.  
  
Justin Perdue: This conversation is important, even though it took us a while to figure out what we were going to talk about today. We landed on talking about something that I do think, and you agree, is very important for us to discuss—and that is the topic of Christian liberty at a high level. But then also trying to say some hopefully helpful and biblical things about the weaker brother, and what the weaker brother is and what the weaker brother is not. The goal of this conversation is, as always, to encourage people in Christ and to remove clutter that's often thrown on top of the gospel. In particular, right now, we would be talking about clutter that's thrown on top of the gospel in the form of hyper, heavy-handed "what can I do?" kind of conversations.  
  
The way that I would want to kick this conversation off is by thinking about what Christian liberty has meant to the saints who lived before, let's say, the middle of the 19th century. The last 150 years or so, the conversation about Christian liberty is often reduced to matters of conscience. What is it okay for me to do? What should I avoid doing? The whole don't drink, don't smoke, don't chew, and don't go with girls that do things kinds of conversations. That's a tendency, I think, that exists in evangelicalism, or there is a tendency, I should say, to obsess over behavior. It's just something that we do.  
  
I think we need to say, before we go any further, that Christian liberty starts with something that is so much deeper, so much greater, so much more wonderful than how we behave. It starts with the fact that we have been set free by Christ and in Christ. We are no longer chained to this life of sin because of what Jesus has done. We are no longer paralyzed by fear of death and fear of the grave—he's delivered us from that. We are no longer in bondage to Satan and the forces of evil. We're no longer under the bondage and condemnation of the Law. Christ has set us free from all of that stuff. That's what saints have always meant when they start to talk about Christian liberty: we are free from all of that stuff and free unto righteousness. We are free to live before God with a clear conscience, knowing that we've been reconciled to him through what Christ has done. So now I don't need to worry and wig out all the time about how I'm doing, because I'm actually free, and Christ has settled that and handled that for me. We would be remiss if we don't start there.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's good. Christian liberty is one of those subjects that is like grace. When you start emphasizing the joy of God and grace, people immediately want to warn you that yes, there is grace, but faith without works is dead. There's grace, but there's works. When you talk about Christian liberty, what's the first thing that you immediately feel? In a word being used as liberation, you feel bondage.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's like we're talking about something that supposedly is about freedom, but instead it sounds like slavery.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You just got done describing Christian liberty and I'm more in bondage now than I was before you described it, and yet you're telling me I'm free. What they say is you are free from sin not to sin. They want to always emphasize that you are free from sin not to sin, which is true and I completely agree. But if we're talking about Christian liberty, the conversation should lead someone to feel cared for, affectionate, and ultimately should find rest. Because if you've been liberated by something—and we're now titling it Christian liberty—it should have that exhale of relief.  
  
Justin Perdue: And the feeling actually of a burden lifted, not a burden added to my shoulders.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. But when I hear Christian liberty talked about, it is a burden. I don't know where I have been liberated from, because I might step on somebody's, I would say, theological preference where I am now not at liberty to say, think, or do something because this person's conscience is bound by it, and if their conscience is bound by it, then I must, too, be bound by it. So liberty is only as strong as the loudest voice in the room.  
  
Justin Perdue: I’ll talk a little bit of Bible here really quick. I'm not going to quote chapter and verse so much, but for the listener, the main passages that we would refer you to, if you want to read about some of these things that we're discussing today, are Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 8, 1 Corinthians 10:23 and following.  
  
If I could, I'm going to offer just a few high-level summary thoughts about those chapters and verses, and those sections of Scripture and what they contain. One, high-level thought about the Bible's clear teaching on this topic: only God and God's Word can bind the conscience. By that, I mean only God and what He has revealed specifically in his Word can tell any human being what he or she cannot do or what he or she must do.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Let me put it this way: only God can determine what should make you feel guilty for and what you should not feel guilty for. Binding the conscience, meaning that's the only thing that can say that if you step outside that, you should feel guilty for it.  
  
Justin Perdue: If God says we are to do something, or if God says we are not to do something, we are obligated to do as He says. What any human being thinks on his or her own doesn't matter. Only God can bind the conscience.  
  
Second big, high-level truth is that we are to love one another and seek one another's good. This is going to be huge because I'm not trying to steal even my own thunder, or yours either, Jon, but there is something that governs our exercise of our freedom, and it's called our love for each other. Third big truth: there are weaker brothers and weaker sisters who must be considered, and we're going to define what that means. Lastly, we are not to pass judgment on each other over these issues of liberty. I think it's a fair summary.  
  
Paul, for example, in all of those passages, he could have said, "Hey guys, under no circumstance whatsoever, in any conceivable scenario, should you ever eat meat sacrificed to idols." He doesn't say that. He tells them to do something actually harder. He says, "Love and consider each other." And we'll unpack that more.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Going back to the bondage, Paul writes to the church of Colossi. As he's talking with them for the first two chapters, really chapter one, you have this explanation of the glory of Christ, who Christ is, and who we are in Christ. He uses this transition phrase. He says, "Therefore," if this be true, this identity, this freedom, this joy that we have in Christ, "let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or whether regards to a festival or a new moon or Sabbath." So, we need to back up and ask, before we even dare to consider all these lists he's giving, which I think is a general list. These are things that someone may pass judgment, and judgment meaning guilty verdict. You are guilty before God for doing such things. He says not to let anyone do this, which is a very powerful statement. I think it sounds very much like Christian liberty; you have been set free from the burden of being found guilty, where there is no judgment coming to you from God.  
  
He says, "These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on," and then he gives a list, "asceticism and worship of angels, going in on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God." I love how he actually ends the conversation with the body being unified together.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even where he goes after that: the body grows together. Then he goes on to say, "If you, in Christ, you died to elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—‘Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch’—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh." Now, Paul is not saying just do whatever you want. He is saying, very much so here, that we ought not pass judgment on one another for what we're handling, what we're touching, what we're eating, what we're drinking. We ought not assume that there is inherent merit in this. If you live in an ascetic lifestyle where you just deny yourself constantly, it does have an appearance of godliness, but actually in and of itself has no value.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I love how in the middle of it, he says, not only does it have value, but it is disruptive to our growth as a body. Because he says we are holding onto Christ because Christ is the one who's liberated us, and Christ is the one who has set us free, and then he says the whole body is being knit together under Christ, not regulations.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. And he is saying that if, in fact, Christ has done this for you, if Christ has done what he's done for you, why are you acting this way? If Christ has done everything that we have said that Christ has done, why are we quibbling and arguing and being silly about this stuff, and thinking that what I eat or drink contributes somehow to my righteousness? I think, at least, that's in part what's in Paul's mind there.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What's so hard for them is that in Jewish culture, there were certain things that were absolutely simple for them to eat and wear and do and mark on their bodies underneath the regulations, underneath the ceremonial Law. Paul comes now and says you cannot be held underneath that because Christ is. Those are but shadows.  
  
Justin Perdue: Christ has abrogated and has abolished the ceremonial Law. We don't need to get into a conversation about the Law here, but when it comes to that aspect of God's Law delivered in the old covenant, this is no more. All of those ceremonial laws were pointing us to how God would make sinners righteous, how atonement was made, etc., and Christ has fulfilled all of that. So, it is no longer binding on the Christian.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There's a part of it here that goes into the Christian liberty, meaning that we have been set free from two things: the condemnation of the Law and the requirements of the Law. We are not going to be condemned for our sins. There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That is the liberty of the Christian. But there are also no requirements to maintain. A joke we were having earlier was there's no return policy on God's adoption. If He purchased you, you can't be returned. That means that you are now set free to obey without fear. Christian liberty means you cannot be bound by anything outside of what Christ has handed to us.  
  
Justin Perdue: You are no longer bound by the requirements of the Law for righteousness, because Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness, and that matters. The Law, as we have said many times on this podcast, and I think it's fine to say it again, we do uphold the third use of the Law, meaning the Law guides our living in Christ. But we are in no way under the Law as a covenant of works that we must keep in order to be in right standing with God. And that matters in terms of our day to day, and my own conscience, and what I perceive about my freedom and my peace before the Lord.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I come from the independent, fundamental Baptist background, and there was much that was handed to me that was theologically correct and helpful. I learned a lot from many of the pastors. My dad was a pastor. I learned a tremendous amount from him and my father-in-law, who is also a retired pastor whom I love and respect. There was a confusion between Christian liberty and the weaker brother, which is kind of where we're going to go here, and that confusion was really hard for me to navigate. How is it that if this is wrong to an individual, at what point am I set free from them, and their confusion of what God's Law says or what the Bible says, and my ability to participate in such actions?  
  
For the sake of argument, Justin, we don't have to beat around the bush. You and I are drinking beers at the moment, right? For many, that is a very complicated conversation. It's highly emotional, and I understand why it can be so hard for people to really stomach the fact that two pastors are drinking something that seems to be very offensive.  
  
Justin Perdue: Maybe, if in the regular episode there's time, but certainly in the members' area we could talk about alcohol, in particular, and why there is such a stigma around it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It is the number one topic, I think, when you're talking about Christian liberty. This probably is one of the ones that come up on top.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's certainly in the top.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm going to use the audience involvement here. Can you guys think of anything other than alcohol that becomes at the top level of Christian liberty?  
  
Justin Perdue: I think the next closest one would be media, like what kind of movies you watch, what kind of entertainment you engage in.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. It's like, “Did you cancel Netflix? Because if you didn't, then you don't really love Christ.”  
  
Justin Perdue: While we're here, what kind of establishments we go to, what kind of food we like, how we think about our diet, fashion, clothing, modesty, schooling for our kids. Is it sin to send my kids to public school? Are we required to homeschool? Is private school an option? Can we go trick or treating? We can do this all day. There are all kinds of things. In saying this right now, it's incredible how worked up we get about this stuff that is peripheral. It is in no way central to the Christian life. Before anybody objects and says, "But God is God over all things and Jesus is Lord," amen. We need to keep the main things the main things.  
  
Let's talk about the weaker brother. This really is important in terms of what the weaker brother is and then what the weaker brother is not.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And then in relation to Christian liberty.  
  
Justin Perdue: Oftentimes, the way that the weaker brother is defined is incredibly unhelpful. I'm going to offer a definition and then I'm going to maybe offer something that's not helpful. I think the weaker brother, biblically, is a person—a real person, not a hypothetical person, but a real person—in my midst with whom I have a relationship, who would or will be pulled back into a lifestyle of sin as a result of being exposed to something that I'm doing. It is a very concrete, specific situation. The weaker brother is not a hypothetical person out there who might be pulled back into sin by what you're doing. That doesn't help. I'm living a life in the context of a particular local church, with particular groups of friends, in particular relationships. Is there a weaker brother or sister in my midst with whom I have a relationship that is going to be brought into sin by what I'm doing? If the answer to that question is no, then I don't think we're talking about a biblical weaker brother situation.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Can I clarify one thing, too? They may be brought into sin, but it has nothing to do with you. In other words, if they're falling into judgmental pride, bitterness...  
  
Justin Perdue: Sure. But then let me say this, and this might sound controversial. It isn't around this table in this room, but someone, the weaker brother is not the most sensitive conscience in the room, because that is generally how Christians talk about it. That it's the weaker brother is the person who is going to be offended morally by the fact that you're drinking a beer. That is not at all what Paul is talking about in the New Testament, because that person being offended in his or her conscience, but not being tempted in any way or led in any direct sense into sin, Paul's word to that person who is passing judgment on you is actually to stop doing that. Don't cast shade either direction would be the exhortation of the apostle. Those who exercise our liberty, we ought not cast shade on people who don't. But then, those who don't ought not cast shade in the other direction: like "If you were really godly, you wouldn't drink that."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. According to Paul, your conscience can be misled.  
  
I grew up in a context where there were people who were convinced if you used any other version of the Bible than the King James version of the Bible...  
  
Justin Perdue: If he isn’t on it, he isn’t in it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I know people who, legitimately, in their conscience, they feel that when they read the ESV or the NASB, it bothers them. Those are the kinds of people that I can look at and say, "Dear brother, dear sister, I don't want to make fun of you. I don't want to bash you. But you have been bound in ways the Bible never intended you to be bonded. You're not supposed to feel that burden."  
  
Justin Perdue: And God didn't speak Old English. God doesn't speak Hebrew either. He gave us His word in such a way where it could be translated. The New Testament is recorded in Greek; Jesus didn't speak Greek. You could go all day. Or, when people talk like that, Jon, talking about bondage, Muslims understand that Allah speaks Arabic and that Revelation can only be in that language since the Quran can't be translated. We don't believe such things. Anyway, back to the topic at hand.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In all honesty, what I mean by this is that if you have a context where they convince you it's not a preference, but it is a conscience issue, that if you do something, you are violating God. I would say that there are many people who grow up in Christianity and music, drugs, and alcohol are one of those situations where you do not have to participate. Let me put it this way: you weren't the weaker brother at that moment just because you choose not to drink alcohol or maybe think alcohol is... there are so many different levels, right? Like it's sinful, or it's okay but not helpful. Then it goes down. I will say that if you think that drinking alcohol is sinful, and that basically you have violated God, and you are guilty before Him, you are, I think, confused scripturally.  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to be a little bit punchy about alcohol. I really like to read the Bible and try to edify people. Just a brief word on abstention from alcohol because it is a thing in the minds of many people. To abstain from alcohol as a high watermark of righteousness is not a Christian idea. Now, there are Muslims around the world who would say that. Mormons will come in and shame us all because they'll tell us we're in sin for drinking coffee. If we're going to use, as the high watermark of sanctification, abstaining from alcohol or something, I think our definition of holiness is whack. I'm saying something that a Muslim or a Mormon could hardly agree with, and it is not inherently Christian, but yet I am elevating this to some level of being, like the arrival of an individual to a godly place.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Can I jump in? This is like getting in the weeds a little bit, but I think it's okay to do. People will say the alcohol in the New Testament, or even in the Old Testament, isn't as high, which is fine. It doesn't matter what level the alcohol was at because the command to not get drunk was still legitimately an option. They had the option to do it.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even Jesus is accused of being a drunkard, and so obviously what he was drinking had alcohol in it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Not only that, Paul says that the elders, those who are looking at the qualifications, should not be drunk with much wine, which is a very easy for Paul to say flat out, "Just don't drink it." I understand it's pretty visible, but here's the second argument in that it was saying that they needed it back then because drinking sources were: water is polluted and all this kind of stuff. You are making argumentations that Scripture is just not going after. This is why he says do not let them pass judgment on you regarding what you eat or drink. Why do you think he mentions drink here? Because you could see very well how someone could be passing judgment on how it is you're drinking something that could cause intoxication.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's a slippery slope. Like if you drink too much, you're in sin, so why would you ever touch it?  
  
Jon Moffitt: I encourage the listener to go read a section of the Bible which you will not believe is in the Bible, but it is in the Bible: Proverbs 31:6\. I've seen many times in the Bible where people use Proverbs to explain why you shouldn't drink, which I understand. It just reads this: "Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty, and remember their misery no more." That is in the Bible. The Proverbs 31 woman, by the way, that's the prequel. That's what's going on before.  
  
Justin Perdue: 1 Corinthians 10: 24\. This is in the context of Paul's writing about these issues. "Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor." That verse alone is incredibly helpful in thinking about Christian liberty and Christian freedom, because somebody could listen to us right now and say, "You guys are contending for freedom in Christ, and you're making it clear that we're not bound by these kinds of silly things that people often want to shackle us with. Okay, great. So does this mean that we would then just act however we want to act, and do whatever we want to do, like how the world says I'm just going to do me and then everybody needs to be okay with it and celebrate it?" No. We are saying something, like the apostles said, like Paul wrote that, as I alluded to earlier, is actually much more difficult than a broad sweeping prohibition could ever be.  
  
We do well, as human beings with extreme positions, to go all in this way or abstain completely this way. We're good with that. But when we're told, no, actually you are free to eat and drink as you see fit in the Lord Jesus Christ, but you need to love your brothers and sisters, and you need to consider one another, that's something that we just lose our minds over. I think it's astonishing that the thing that regulates the exercise of our freedom is not some kind of heavy handed law; it is, in fact, the exhortation to love your brothers. God said that because He says it all the time, all over the New Testament: love each other. It's what we're called to do.  
  
We were joking a little bit before we hit record on this, about how when we began to discuss the fact that our good works are not ultimately for God; they are for our neighbor and God is glorified. Our neighbor benefits from our good works and we are called and appointed to love each other. People get all kinds of nervous. They think that we're somehow trying to cheapen the glory of God, or they think that somehow we're making a slide into the old liberalism—the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man, we just need to love each other and it's all going to be great. It's not at all what we're saying. But if you were thinking about what the Christian life is characterized by, and what marks a Christian, if you're going to answer that question biblically and love for the saints is not at the top of your list, you're not reading the same Bible I am. That conversation about love for one another needs to govern how we think about the exercise of our freedom. I'm going to consider who I live with—the brothers and sisters that I am in community with, in particular, at Covenant Baptist Church for me—and I'm going to make sure that I love and consider those people in everything that I do, including what I drink, or what I eat, or what kind of music I listen to, or how I might speak or frame something. I'm not bound by some law that's going to condemn me before God, but I'm encouraged because Christ has done everything for me. Now give your life away in love for your brothers. This isn't complicated. That's what drives and motivates us.  
  
Anyway, that's just not the tone and tenor that I hear in any of the conversations about this topic. And that saddens me.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It does. I will say people are definitely concerned about obeying God, they are concerned about what it means to be holy and righteous.  
  
Justin Perdue: Which are good concerns.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. I don't want this to come across as I'm patting on the head, but there has culturally been a handing down to Christians of a certain standard of living that isn't necessarily biblical. My desire for this podcast is actually to help people be liberated in your thinking. We often feel this binding in our own conscience, where, because you don't think this is biblical, and yet I can't find it in Scripture, I'm now bound to it.  
  
Actually, there are two things: I've been set free to love you and not feel that. But also, I know a lot of people who don't think drinking is a sin, or watching certain movies isn't a sin. There's a great friend of ours and deacon in our church who cannot watch violent movies. It legitimately messes with his head. He doesn't think it's sinful though.  
  
Justin Perdue: Sure. He just doesn't like it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: His wife does.  
  
But the reason I mentioned that is there's a "I'm refraining from participating because it's not beneficial for me" dialogue versus "No one else should participate in this because it's not beneficial for me. So if it's not beneficial for me, how can it be beneficial for you?" And that is what we're trying to say. We need to be careful we're not making those two connections.  
  
Justin Perdue: Agree. It's a very myopic perspective.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm going to just round something back around. I hear this a lot: the potential of hurting, and what I want to go back to the hypothetical weak brother, there could be someone out there that we could offend. I will tell you that I offend people all the time because of things that I choose or choose not to do, but those people aren't in my church. I have not seen where Paul binds me to the culture that surrounds me, whether it's a Christian culture or not. We could even talk about masks and all kinds of things like that, to go along with that.  
  
Justin Perdue: But do we really want to do that?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Nope. We're not going to do that.  
  
But the point of it is that I have been called to the local body and I need to be considerate and concerned about them. If I am going to lead someone in, what I would say, legitimately trapped in sin—not critical, not judgmental sin—but they need to be rebuked of that. We're talking legitimate enslavement to, at the time Paul does have mentions of falling back into idol worship when he's talking about the weaker brother, and he's talking about meat offered to idols, there's a long, strong pull that's going on there. Paul is trying to be conscious of what's going on in the context, but it doesn't bother him, but there could be a pull that ends up going back into that direction.  
  
Justin Perdue: I might put the pastor hat on for a minute. I'm going to talk as a pastor right now. Jon, we say this all the time. We love Theocast and pray the Lord continues to grow this platform, and we are unashamed about being pastors first. We pastor local churches. I know for our own elders at our church, and I'm sure that you guys at Grace Reformed would say the same thing, I'm sure for Jimmy, even, at Christ Community, his guys would say the same thing. A few things that guide us in our thinking about these matters in our church: one, if the Bible calls something sin, we call it sin. It's not an option. Two, if the Bible doesn't call something sin, we will not call it sin. Not negotiable. Don't really care how you feel about it. If the Bible doesn't say it's sin then we're not going to call it sin.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We were having a quick dialogue beforehand, and we have to clarify. Someone may say name something illegal drugs or something like that it actually fits within—  
  
Justin Perdue: It fits within a biblical parent.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Because if it's illegal, it's immoral. Because we're called to obey the authority that we're in unless it contradicts Scripture. Almost anything can fit underneath the category of Scripture. It does a broad brush. It doesn't have to literally say heroin is wrong.  
  
Justin Perdue: A few other things that matter here, we will not, like we said earlier about binding the conscience—we've already defined that—we will not bind consciences where the Scripture doesn't. That's a big deal in a local church.  
  
Next, this is controversial perhaps, we will not allow the conscience of a single person or a group of people—that includes the pastors—to dictate terms for the whole church. There won't just be this one person or this group of people who have really strong convictions about said issue that is then going to determine for the entire church how we're going to set our trajectory on this matter. Including the elders. We're not going to do that.  
  
Another thing: we will seek to destroy self-righteousness that flows both directions. The one direction is obvious, where people who don't participate in liberties and exercise freedoms can be self-righteous toward those who do. But it's also true that those who exercise freedom, and understand that they're free to do something like drink a beer, can be very self-righteous about their understanding for those who think they can't. So, it flows both directions. We want to destroy self-righteous freedom.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We could be accused of doing a podcast with a beer in hand as flaunting our liberties.  
  
Justin Perdue: But we're not casting shade on people who don't drink.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No. I don't think only strong Christians do particular things, like drink wine or watch certain movies.  
  
Justin Perdue: We're not saying, "Oh, well, if you watch R-rated movies, you must really understand that your righteousness only comes from Christ." That's not what we're saying.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Or if you can have foul language and drink a beer, then you are the truest of the free Christian.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's ridiculous.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That is actually sinful.  
  
Justin Perdue: It is. Brief plug here: that kind of lawless living, where you think that the more you can just go crazy or out of control, that is driven by the same legalistic spirit that you lambast other people for.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You're creating a new law.  
  
Justin Perdue: You have. It used to be legalism in the formal sense of the word, and now, we are being legalistic in terms of who can exercise their liberty the most. It is so ridiculous when it goes that direction. As a pastor, the biggest things that I would want to do from a cultural perspective is we want to love and consider each other, and we want to be charitable. We want that flowing both directions from the stronger to the weaker, as Paul would phrase it. And also from the weaker to the stronger.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say, just on this, before we lose a thought, Paul says we are to consider how to build one another up. If someone chooses to refrain for whatever reasons in particular, it could be for dietary purposes, there's a thousand reasons why people may say they're not going to participate in that, and it's not because their conscience is bound. They're just saying they prefer not to. I know people who have family members who have horrible backgrounds in alcoholism and all kinds of other reasons. I never want that person to feel less than. If Paul calls me to say that I am to give up my preferences, I'm to set aside, I am to make them feel loved, and so I want that person to always feel loved and cared for. I never want them to think they're just not at the top level echelon of Christianity, because once they are, that won't bother them. That is just not helpful at all.  
  
Justin Perdue: Last couple of things I'll say, as a pastor, in thinking about a culture in a local church. We would want to seek to establish a situation where we are going to all aim to love one another and legitimately consider other people as more important than ourselves. If we have that as our goal, then we are already disarming this whole conversation before it even gets started. Because my aim is to love and edify those around me, and their aim is to love and edify those around them, we're going to be just fine if that's what's governing us.  
  
Last thought: we all should seek to train our consciences according to God's Word.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And that takes work.  
  
Justin Perdue: It takes a long time.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you've grown up in a pietistic background.  
  
Justin Perdue: Yes. It takes a long time, which means what? Patience is required. What does this mean? We say this all the time, we always come back to the same stuff: we live with one another in love, patience, charity, humility, bearing with one another in meekness. Sounds like Ephesians 4 to me. It's how we live together in the church. That's the way forward in this conversation for the benefit of all.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What if you, one, you know your conscience is bound, but you know how to get free from it. Let's just remove let's remove alcohol for the moment. We're talking about particular Christian actions: things they should do or shouldn't do, places they should or shouldn't go. I think some people's consciences are bound by particular religious actions—I'm just going to say this: how often you particularly read a book or not, a.k.a. your Bible. Your conscience can be bound by many things that basically says, "Unless you do this, you're in sin," when the Bible never says that is sinful. You were binding the conscience in such a way. So, how do we set people free from that? That is a conversation I really want to have in the members' podcast.  
  
Justin Perdue: I don't know that I have anything else to add to set that up.  
  
If we are going to have a conversation worth listening to, that's yet to be determined. But if you would like to see how this conversation goes about Christian liberty and things that Jon has talked about on how to set people free from this kind of bondage in their thinking. We may talk a little bit more specifically about alcohol.  
  
Maybe you're thinking, "I would love to hear Jon and Justin riff on that a little bit." You can do that by going to our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com, and you can find more information there about our membership. The name of that is soon to change. We're just going to keep saying that every week.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's more about what you're giving than what you're getting.  
  
Justin Perdue: So true. You're not purchasing a good, this is not a commodity that you're buying, you are partnering with a ministry, you're partnering with a movement to spread this message of rest in Christ and the sufficiency of Christ for sinners like us. He is our only hope and righteousness.  
  
We'll talk with a number of you over in the members' area, and we will talk with all of you, we hope, next week.

---

### Your Sanctification Is Not for You

*Published: February 17, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/your-sanctification-is-not-for-you*
*Tags: 2021, NC, Sanctification*

What is the purpose of your sanctification? Who is it for? (Hint: It's not for you.) We survey a number of passages from the New Testament to demonstrate the point of our growth in Christ.  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about how freeing it is to realize your sanctification isn't for you.  
[MEMBERS Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-your-sanctification-is-not-for-you/)  
  
**Recommended Resources:**  
[Dazed and Confused: Hebrews 12:1-14 and Holiness](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/dazed-and-confused-hebrews-121-14-and-holiness/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDuTYz3pnA&feature=emb\_title

### **Podcast Transcript**

Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, Justin and I have this conversation: your sanctification is not for you. We hope you enjoy the conversation. Stay tuned.  
  
Justin Perdue: Your sanctification is not about you. Your sanctification, I'll even say, is not for your good; it is for the good of your neighbor. As Martin Luther is credited with saying, and we say all the time, God doesn't need your good works—but your neighbor does. That is today's conversation in a nutshell. Our sanctification by the work of God's Spirit in us is not ultimately for us; it's for the good of our brothers and sisters and all of those who are close to us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Now, we've got to prove it. Let me put it this way. One of the things that I would say most Christians, when it comes to sanctification, the way I would describe their life is proof of purchase: you need to prove that you've been purchased by Christ, so everything they do, all of sanctification is a proof of purchase.  
  
When I talk to people coming out of a Calvinistic background, or Calvingelicals, as we like to say, or just an evangelical background, you hear them saying that you better be demonstrating, you better be showing, you better be proving, and you better be examining. We just did a podcast on that. You can go back and listen to the examination episodes.  
  
One of the things that I struggle with is when you look at the New Testament, you don't have the New Testament pushing the believer towards this constant proof of purchase, that you need to be proving to yourself and to others around you and to God that you are saved.  
  
I know that they would say that's not what they're saying. But in many ways, if you think about what they're calling the believer to, it is a proof of purchase. One of the things I say is if God is sovereign, and God knows all things, and He knows my heart, and He knows to whom belongs to Him, I would be surprised if in the mind of God, He goes, "Oh, I adopted you? I don't remember that. Why don't you prove to me that I did that?" God knows His own. That is the glorious promise of the nature of God: He cannot be surprised, He does not learn, He does not change. If you are trying to prove that you belong to God, and unfortunately, final salvation, and misinterpreting Hebrews where people say that God is going to look at your good works to determine whether you belong to Him, is a complete misinterpretation of Scripture. We did a whole podcast on that. I will put it in the notes. It's called Dazed and Confused. Hebrews 12\. When it comes down to now proof of each other, there's this list that's been given to you—these are the things that they say you need to be working on as an individual so you can call it sanctification. If you aren't doing this, if you weren't sanctifying yourself, in these ways, then most likely you're not a believer again. Now we've gone from proof of purchase to God, to proof that I am living up to the claim of Christianity, which, there are a lot of movements out there that are calling people into question—if you say you're a Christian and you don't act like it, then you better start acting like it.  
  
So what I'm going to push back with in this beginning section is the point of good works, or the point of sanctification, is proof—almost 100% of the time. That is the design of it. What we're going to argue with this morning is that when you listen to how the New Testament writers describe fruit—and the purpose of your fruit, and the growth in godliness, and the growth in Christ-likeness, they tell you why you need to be doing it.  
  
What's interesting to me is that there are a few times, which we will reference in this podcast, where they will say, show me your faith by your works—but there's a context to it, and it has nothing to do with proof of purchase, which is interesting. It has everything to do with what we're going to be arguing about right now, which is that your neighbor needs your love and you're unwilling to give it. You can't say you love Christ and not love your neighbor. That's what James and 1 John are saying.  
  
Justin Perdue: We could start any number of places, and like you said a minute ago, now we need to prove and demonstrate not our legitimacy before the Lord, but we need to prove and demonstrate what we are arguing for today, which is that your sanctification is for the benefit of your brothers and sisters.  
  
Again, like I said, we could go to a number of passages in the New Testament. I'm going to start if I can, with Ephesians 4:1 and following. Many people are familiar with that wonderful letter and how the letter, at least in our modern chapter breakdown, it does break down nicely into two large sections: the first three chapters, and then the latter three chapters; the first three chapters being soaring doctrine of the eternal plan of God, His grace, His mercy, His purpose is realized through Christ, the finished work of Jesus for us—all of that stuff. Then he pivots at the beginning of chapter four to then talk to the Ephesian Christians about how they're now to live together in the church.  
  
I am actually preaching through Ephesians right now. When I got to this section of the letter, the way that I framed this piece of that letter is this: if you were asked to write a letter to a church about how they are to live together, how would you start it? Based on everything that you have ever heard, everything you've ever read, or everything you've ever been taught, how would you begin such a letter to a church about how they're to live together? Let that question sit in your mind and then consider how Paul begins. How does he begin his exhortation? He begins with words like this: he says to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you've been called. By that, he means walk in a way commensurate with the gospel, not walk in a way that would make you worthy to be saved. That's impossible. Walk in a way that's commensurate with the gospel, but what does that look like, Paul?  
  
Jon Moffitt: When people hear that, automatically they think morality. That's what they think. Like these are the moral things that you need to be doing, and these are the actions: reading your Bible, praying, tithing, etc.  
  
Justin Perdue: Disciplines. Absolutely. Listen to what Paul says. Here is what it would look like in the mind of the apostle to walk in a way that's commensurate with the gospel. He says, "With all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." Then he goes on for a few verses to talk about the basis of that unity. There's one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all.  
  
But where does the apostle begin? This is very instructive for us. He begins with humility and gentleness, patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain unity in the body of Christ. It's quite clear in all of these things that he is exhorting the Ephesian Christians to. The point of this is that all of these things are things that your neighbor, your brother and sister, is desperately going to need from you. This is not ultimately about you. This is about what your brothers and sisters need from you, so that we all together—because this is where he's going so—might be built up in love unto maturity in Christ Jesus. I just think it's such a paradigm shift, Jon, for people who have been catechized, again, explicitly or implicitly, to think that their sanctification exists primarily for their own improvement and for their own moral uprightness, confidence before the Lord, and all that. Then indirectly, as they're grown in these ways, they may be useful to other people. No, flip that on its head. Because the main point of your sanctification is that you would be good for your brothers and sisters, that you might walk in love, and humility, and patience, and gentleness with them, and that there might be unity in the church around the Lord Jesus Christ. Plus the fact that we have a common confession in him that we are saved, not by what we do, but by what Christ has done for us, and we cast ourselves upon him. We together are clinging to each other, as we all cling to Jesus, as we often say. That's where the apostle begins. It's super instructive and helpful.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What is interesting is that he says, "eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace". Everybody that I meet is that hyper sensitive to their own sanctification. It is a good thing. I appreciate their love and affection for God. They truly are trying to find ways to suppress sin and reflect godliness. The problem that I have here is that they have been misled to think that the purpose of the Christian life is to decrease sin and increase godliness. The increasing of godliness, though, is absent from this very thing that Paul says, which is to maintain the unity and the bond of peace. Their increase of godliness is actually isolated from maintaining unity and peace, because they are increasing in godliness in ways which they think less sin means more godliness, and more discipline means more godliness. If I am more stoic, disciplined, and well knowledged -I've got a lot of knowledge about the Bible, I pray a lot, and I read a lot—I'm a godly person. Paul does not describe worthy or godly in that fashion. He actually describes it with patience, meekness, and long suffering.  
  
Let me read you another section. We have to get to the latter part of Ephesians 4, which I know we will, but just something else that is very similar to this: I'm going to read you 1 Corinthians 13.  
  
Justin Perdue: We need to apologize to everyone who has ever had 1 Corinthians 13 read in a wedding because everybody thinks it's a wedding text, when in reality, it's about love in the church.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you want to say, "love your wife", it's really for the context of the church.  
  
Again, Paul writing to the Corinthian church, Paul writing to the Ephesian church; you have to understand these are not individual letters to be read individually, but these are to the congregation to be applied. So he says this: "If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own; it is not irritable or resentful. . ." Do I need to keep going? The point of it is, to say that you love someone is the fruits of the Spirit that are coming out of you. Sanctification is the process of loving your brothers and sisters without envy and strife, thinking about unity, thinking about patience and kindness. He even says this: "Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." The idea of that being that we are carrying the weight of our brothers and sisters by the motivation of love.  
  
Justin Perdue: Two big interjections right here on 1 Corinthians 13: one, love and patience go together. They're inextricably linked. It's very clear in the way that Paul describes love in 1 Corinthians 13 that love, by definition, is long-suffering. So, that whole idea of bearing with one another is wrapped up in love. Like he says, love is patient, and it's calm. Love endures all things. It bears all things. It's what love is. I think that's an important observation. If we're always getting uber frustrated with our brothers and sisters, because they're not doing as well as we think they should be. "Why are you still struggling with this? This is just hard for me. Your weaknesses and the bends in your frame is just making my life difficult. It's hard to bear with you and live with you." Love will carry the day in that environment where we say, "No, this is what we do in the church: we love one another, and we bear with one another, as we are all struggling against the corruption of our flesh."  
  
Second thought from 1 Corinthians 13: it's really cool how he begins that chapter. It's like saying you can have all the gifts in the world, like prophecy and tongues, you can have the strongest faith in the world, you can have unmatched zeal—like I'm willing to die for the gospel, and I'm willing to give away everything I have for the gospel—but if you don't have love, he says it's all meaningless. It's very clear that love and bearing with one another in this kind of gentleness and patience piece is absolutely primary in the Christian life. So if we're going to talk about sanctification, we ought to be talking in those terms.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I was just thinking about giving your life. You think about even the street preachers who go out and you look at what they do. I'm like, "Look, you're definitely telling the truth, but you're missing out on 1 Corinthians." Also when it says speak the truth in love, you are receiving so much criticism and yet you are forgetting. I'm not saying don't go to the streets preaching, but you need to understand the point of what we're communicating is the love of Christ to redeem people from their sins.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to take us to a different passage, which is also incredibly important. Galatians 5:25 and following. The end of Galatians 5 and the early part of Galatians 6\. Galatians 5:16-24—it's the famous section on the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit. Paul says in verse 25, "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. The very next verse, verse 26, "Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." Because there's that chapter division in between them where chapter six starts, a lot of times, these words are somewhat pulled apart. How many times have you heard people talk about what it might look like to walk in the Spirit? They say all kinds of stuff, and most of the time, what's said is not bad at all, but in the immediate context of Galatians 5, where Paul says, "Let us walk by the Spirit," what does he write? He says to not become conceited. Let's not be arrogant and proud in the way that we deal with one another, looking down on other people, and being condescending, and all that stuff. Let's not provoke one another. Again, that's gentleness; not trying to provoke people and stir people up in a bad way. Let's not envy one another.  
  
Then he says, "If there are people among you who are caught in sin, those of you who are spiritual," those of you who are mature, "should restore that person in a spirit of gentleness." There's that word again. Gentleness and restoration. We want to see sinners restored to the fold, not beaten to death, but brought back in lovingly and gently. He says to keep, watch on yourself, lest you to be tempted. There's humility realizing that if it's not for the grace of God, there go I. Then bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. You walk with your brothers and sisters in such a way where, as they are struggling, you bear up underneath those burdens with them. You come alongside and you aim to be helpful. You don't pile it on if their lives are going badly. You say, "Brother, how can I be of help to you? Sister, how can I encourage you in Christ and help you think through this matter? How can I be of assistance here?" Those are the words that immediately surround Paul's exhortation for us to walk in the Spirit—and that's just not the way that it's often discussed. At least it wasn't discussed that way in my contexts for a long time.  
  
Again, walking by the Spirit—people would immediately assume that if they are going to walk by the Spirit, it has everything to do with their personal disciplines and what they are doing in their time that's quiet and alone, and not how they are living in the context of the community of the church. But clearly in the minds of the apostles, walking by the Spirit is a corporate thing that we do together. It's just a paradigm shift all over the place. I trust after we do a few passages of scripture, we can probably talk about how liberating this is and how it reorients the focus.  
  
I'm going to pause and let you go to Ephesians 4.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I got to go to 2 Peter first and then I'll go to Ephesians 4 because the two go together.  
  
2 Peter 1\. I just want to read a couple of verses so you understand. It says, "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ." He goes on to talk about the great, very great promises, that we are saved by God's divine power. Then he says, "For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge. . ." He's describing sanctification. He's describing that this is the outflow; you are now going to be sharing or expressing what's new about you. Then he says, ". . . and godliness with brotherly love, and brotherly love with affection. For if these qualities are yours and increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." God does not need this from you because He doesn't need anything from us. Who needs it? This is why he says ineffective. Who needs our love? Who needs our patience? Who needs our godliness? Not God; our neighbor does.  
  
If we go back to Ephesians 4, you have Peter talking about this ineffectiveness, how we already then take this knowledge of God's divine nature of saving us, and then we use that as our means of loving our brother. Let's go to Ephesians 4:15: "Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ." Every Christian understands they want to grow. Verse 16: ". . .from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love." So, you hear Paul talking about maintaining the bond of peace, walking in a manner worthy of calling which you have been called.  
  
Then he says, "growing in the knowledge of Christ". How is that accomplished? It's accomplished in the local body. Do you know where Paul gets the most angry? (I would say all the New Testament writers get the most angry.) It's when someone's coming up and dividing the body and causing division, because what's ended up happening is if a body is divided, it's not working properly, and therefore it's not growing. So when we make the statement, "your sanctification is not about you", it's not. It's about us. It's about the body. It's about the local congregation. When you are so individualizing, proving your purchase, you are detaching yourself from the very thing that Paul, Peter, and the New Testament writers are driving you into.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to reference James 2 in a drive-by fashion. I know that that is a text that's raised often about needing to prove our faith by our works, and we have no issue because the confessions have no issue with using the language of our fruit being evidence of the fact that we've been justified. That's entirely fine. What we think we would understand James to be saying is not that we're saved by works, but that in the good works that we do that, by the way, God has already prepared beforehand for us to walk in—Ephesians 2:10\. That is a validation of the fact that we have already been justified and united to the Lord Jesus.  
  
But what is the context of James 2 that has to be asked if we're going to rightly understand it? I think we joked about this a few weeks ago, or maybe it was a recording we did a few weeks ago. We were talking about how so often guys that do biblical interpretation and exegesis will say that the three rules of biblical interpretation are context, context, and context. We're just saying, guys, let's apply rule one, two, and three as we aim to understand particular passages. The context of James 2 is the sin of partiality. In the church, there is impartiality and there is favoritism being shown toward people who are wealthy, and the people who are haggard, poor, and don't have a lot are being marginalized. He is rebuking the congregation for that reality.  
  
Then he goes into his piece about demonstrating your faith by what you do. I would argue that the works that he has in view in writing that he's just written about is, if you are going to say, if you're going to claim Christ, then you need to love the weak. You need to love those who are marginalized. You need to love one another and not show favoritism in these worldly ways.  
  
This is completely off script—like everything else that we're doing today—but you hear people talk a lot about how the church shouldn't look like the world, to which I agree, but it's not often in the ways that we frame that conversation about what movies you watch or what music you listen to, or whether or not you go dancing or something. No, the church shouldn't look like the world in that we ought to love one another in such a way that it's obvious that we belong to Jesus like in John 13\. We should love one another in such a way that people look at the church and the weak are being cared for, the marginalized are being brought in, and they love each other, and they don't seem to have this class system that the world inherently does. That's how, in a most pointed way, at the top of that list of how the church shouldn't look like the world. I think that's it. That's what James, I think, is speaking to.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There are probably people feeling like we just pulled the rug out from underneath their feet, and they're not sure where they're going here. It is so disorienting when you hear that your sanctification is not about your personal progress so that God's pleased with you.  
  
Justin Perdue: One line that I'm just going to mention to the reader is Romans 12\. That's a famous text where Paul pivots in Romans from doctrine to life. He's going to exhort the Roman Christian to a number of things. Look through the list of stuff that's in Romans 12 and tell me how many of those things are individual. The vast majority of them have an inherently corporate nature to them, whether it's love, or hospitality, or not avenging yourselves—trust God that vengeance belongs to the Lord, love your enemies, and all these things. They're corporate in nature. I think this is just undeniable. When you go to the New Testament, pick at any epistle and it's the same tune over and over again.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I might as well throw one more in there. You got Philippians. Almost in every epistle, you have these instructions of the application of loving your brother. Chapter 2 says, "So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." I can keep going. "Having this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus. He's describing living a life in tune with the nature of Christ, which is what sanctification is. It's us orienting our life towards Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: We could do this all day, and I'm really going to try to restrain myself, but even the weaker brother passages, 1 Corinthians 8, 1 Corinthians 10, and Romans 14 that are in these epistles, too, about how we're to live. What's the weaker brother stuff about? It's about love. We have all of these freedoms in the Lord Jesus Christ, and it doesn't matter what you eat or drink. Obviously, there is such a thing as abuse of food and drink, but it doesn't matter what you eat and drink. What is it that governs the exercise of our liberty and the church? Love. Paul doesn't say that under no circumstances should you ever eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols. That would be simple. He tells the church to do something that's much more complex and difficult. He says to love each other, and let your love for one another govern the exercises of your freedoms and liberties. We literally could do this all day because the entire New Testament speaks this way.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There are two things I want to bring up as we bring this to a close. We've said this before, but I want to change it up a little bit. Justin, can you think of a sin? I know this is a trick question. I'm throwing you a grounder and I apologize, but can you think of a sin that you can commit that would bring you under condemnation with God as a believer?  
  
Justin Perdue: As a believer, none.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. So there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Can you think of a sin that you could commit that won't affect someone else? Not God, but someone else.  
  
Justin Perdue: No.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So, we always think about sin in our relationship to the Father. Trust me, we should not want to sin against the Father.  
  
Justin Perdue: We need to need to be reminded of that truth, don't we?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. But what you also need to realize is that sometimes we excuse our sin. I don't know what their thought process is, but I know in my own heart, there's this excuse of sin because no one's going to know about it.  
  
We don't understand the weight that our sin is not only offensive to God, but it affects the very people to whom God has called us to love. So, in all of these passages, he is calling you to suppress your sin and then do positive actions, which is demonstrate mercy, kindness, love, and patience. When you are increasing your love for Christ, and receiving this mercy and grace, that's what motivates you to then in turn... when it says sanctify yourselves—because people always say we don't emphasize sanctification—I do. You just don't like the sanctification that I emphasize. You want to hear read more, pray more, be theologically stronger—and Paul says love more, sacrifice more, give more. The motivation for that is always love.  
  
This is the second thing I wanted to mention: if the motivation for sanctification, or I would say, acting godly towards our brothers and sisters is love, then how do we increase our love for Christ so that we might love others more?  
  
Those are the two big ones to ring up.  
  
Justin Perdue: Like we like to say often, this is not an either-or situation. This is both. Of course, we want to encourage people towards thoughtful living and reflecting on the Word of God and all these kinds of things, but to speak to both of your points, how does that even happen most effectively for you to meditate and reflect on God's Word, for you to grow in your knowledge and understanding of God's Word, for you to grow in prayer and all these other things? How does that happen? How does that growth and development happen? How do you grow in godliness?  
  
It's going to happen in a corporate context, in a gospel-preaching church, where the saints are submitting themselves to the teaching and discipline of that church, and where the saints together are growing and being built up by God's Spirit. How am I going to be sanctified? How am I going to grow? The answer to that is according to God's Word, God's plan is that you would have that occur in you in a local church context. You will do that as a part of a community of saints. You're not going to do that in isolation.  
  
Now, of course, God gives extraordinary grace in extraordinary circumstances. If a Christian is imprisoned wrongly for their faith, I trust the Lord gives grace. But let's not be crazy. And use the exception to prove the rule. The general pattern for God's work in us is to be done in the context of the church community, as we gather together and sit under the Word, as we come to the Lord's Table, and as we sing and pray together. We do that weekly over the course of years and decades. It's remarkable what the Lord can do with that. We will be transformed as we, together, behold Christ and are given Christ from the Word when we assemble. We will be changed, grown, nourished, and strengthened—to use the language of the confessions—as we, together, have a common union in Christ and come to his table to feed on him by faith. This is how this occurs. This is not mysticism. This is just God promising to bless these means that He has given us—and that occurs in the context of the gathered church. I could go on about that, Jon, but that's my initial thought there. Even that seems counterintuitive because people think the real stuff for the Christian life happens when they're by themselves, but the Scriptures say otherwise. The real stuff happens when you're with the saints.  
  
I'm having more and more people in my church admitting that they would spend time in the Word, and they're always looking for that nugget in the day, but they'd walk away going, "I didn't get anything. What does the Psalm mean when I read that? Then they come to men's and women's Bible studies, or fellowship group, or the sermon, and they walk away filled, charged, and loved, and their knowledge has completely shifted. That sounds like Ephesians 4\. That's what that sounds like. Consider how to build one another up in love and good works. That sounds like the gifting of the Spirit given to the elders, the teachers, and the preachers for the equipping of the saints. That sounds biblical versus what you're trying to do, which is isolation.  
  
I'm going to use biblical language, and it's going to make people feel uncomfortable, but your growth in God's knowledge and your growth of the Word of God, happens primarily not in seclusion, but primarily happens in the local church.  
  
It's remarkable, like you just said, if we all reflect on our own lives and the times when we've been most affected and stirred. I would imagine that 99 times out of a hundred, it's been in some kind of a corporate setting where we're either in corporate worship, or we're at a Bible study, or a home group, or we're having a conversation with a couple of friends from church about this or that thing, and we leave those circumstances edified in a very obvious way; we can see it and sense it. Sometimes we can't. A lot of times that happens in the Christian life: God's working and we're not immediately aware of that. But the times when we're most edified occur when we're together. During the week, you're often chasing after that "spiritual high" that you had at 11:00 AM on Sunday and you can't get there. Have you ever considered that maybe that experience that you had at 11:00 AM on Sunday only happened because you were with the saints, and you were in the assembly, and the Lord met you? And by that, I mean met you guys corporately to minister to you in that setting because He's promised to do it.  
  
I think that this shift in perspective on sanctification is very liberating. It is, I think, exciting to think about how my main objective in growing in the faith ought to be to pour myself into a local church context and to give myself away for the good of my brothers and sisters. If I'm making that my aim, as I'm trusting Christ, and I'm submitting to my pastors and the doctrine of my local church, I am safe. I am going to grow, and I'm going to be used by God for all kinds of good in the lives of my brothers and sisters—and they're going to be used in my life. You can take your eyes off of yourself for a minute; get over yourself and love your neighbor. Love your brothers and sisters. You're more useful, and you're more at peace, rather than obsessing about your own performance all the time in a way that's crippling and often counterproductive.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're going to definitely build on what Justin just said. We're going to talk about how this position actually leads you to rest. It gives you purpose. I would say the most restful people who are firmly rooted in their assurance in Christ are the most effective, as Peter says, in bearing burdens and loving and caring for the body of Christ. We'll see people truly change because they are no longer putting their hope in themselves, but in Christ.  
  
We're going to talk about that in what's called our members' podcast. This is a ministry that we put together for those that want to partner with us and see the message of resting in Christ go throughout media throughout the world in book form, article, podcasts, and video. We are in our sixth year and we are so excited that there are many of you that want to partner with us. We do an extra podcast just for you. You can go to our website to learn more about that. That is our membership.  
  
We will see you guys in the membership. And for those of you that are listening, we'll see you next week.

---

### The Birthplace of Bad Theology

*Published: February 10, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-birthplace-of-bad-theology*
*Tags: 2021, Assurance, Bad Theology, NC*

Where does all bad theology come from? From our perspective, it comes from a loss of the church's one foundation--that is, Jesus Christ and his work counted to us by faith alone.  
  
Members Podcast: Jon and Justin deal with common objections to "faith alone" and "Christ alone."  
  
[MEMBERS' Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-birthplace-of-bad-theology/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBAaZ2MMZck&feature=emb\_title

### **Podcast Transcript**

Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Question for you: where does all bad theology come from? Here at Theocast, it is our conviction that all bad theology comes from a loss of the one truth foundation on which the church can stand—and that foundation is Jesus Christ, his work in our place, counted to us by faith alone. We're going to talk about that today on the podcast.  
  
In the members' episode, we deal with some common objections to the emphasis that the Reformation puts on Christ alone and faith alone. We hope this is a helpful conversation for you. Stay tuned.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Lately, with Theocast, those who have been joining are really vocal and involved. It's unreal how encouraging everybody is. So many people are hungry. They're coming from all kinds of backgrounds—we're not just talking about a Baptist background, we're not just talking about Calvinists; there are people coming from Charismatic, Legalism, and Fundamentalism backgrounds. It's a broad perspective. I know this to be true in my own church where my church has seen a pretty big influx of the Charismatics who are leaving that theology and coming into our church, and people from Fundamentalism coming in this direction.  
  
One of the things that I hear all the time is that these people are finding rest and they love it; they love how much joy there is in Christ. What's their number one passion? They want to rescue anybody and everybody from their past. They want everybody to know what kind of joy they can have. They call me and they text me so frustrated with the text conversations they're having, and the dinner conversations they're having. They're like, "Jon, how do I show them that this is so wrong?" They get so upset not because these people are wrong, but they're missing out on the absolute joy that you can have in the midst of pain and suffering in a world that is crumbling.  
  
One of the conversations I've been having with Justin about this is how do we help people articulate the patience that is required? And what are we trying to accomplish when we're being patient with people who we theologically disagree with? What are we trying to do?  
  
Here at Theocast, one of the things that you'll notice is that we have no problem talking about bad theology and pointing out where things are often wrong. I'll just put it this way: what really annoys me about discernment ministries is that they are just hatchet jobs. All they do is they go in and they just hack away at people's bad theology for the sake of telling them they have bad theology. I know I'm imputing people and I'm assuming their motives, but I can only go off of what I see sometimes. It just seems like all the conversations are about proving where you're wrong. "This is unbiblical."  
  
Justin Perdue: To briefly jump in and maybe rescue some of those motivations a little bit, I assume that people that are doing that would say—and to an extent, we would agree—that in tearing down bad arguments, and tearing down bad theology, you are aiming to do good to people. I assume that their motivations are good in that regard.  
  
You and I are going in the same direction, but I was just trying to nuance and clarify.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Perception is reality. A lot of times, all people perceive you doing is coming in and telling them where they're wrong, and it seems like it's all it is an attack all the time. My poor wife had to deal with me doing this when I first discovered the relief of our theology. It was like everything she did was wrong, and it just overwhelmed her because she never felt like she could trust anything because everything was wrong. Instead of building up a better foundation and then moving someone to that foundation, we just toppled that down; we're battering rams just wrecking the older one. We're a theological wrecking ball.  
  
What I've learned is that, sure, you can liberate people from bad theology, but what did you liberate them to? It's more of you crumbled them; you didn't assure them.  
  
What we want to talk about today is the birthplace of bad theology. If you understand where it comes from, then it's a lot easier to deal with it than it is just to destroy it. Because if you understand something, and the root cause of it, it's like versus leaving the splinter in your arm and taking an ibuprofen versus going to the splinter and figuring out how to get it out.  
  
We're going to talk broadly about the birthplace of bad theology, and then, depending on how this goes, we would love to do a subsequent podcast talking about how it plays out in the different areas in theology throughout history.  
  
Justin Perdue: We can talk about where the bad theology comes from, high level, and make some comments there. Then maybe we'll transition to how that relates to our posture and our method here at Theocast, and even for ourselves, maybe in our own churches, too. Then maybe conclude—at least this portion—with some allusions to some of the various manifestations of this systemic problem.  
  
Let's talk about the real issue, the heart of the matter, here. From our perspective, the birthplace of bad theology is losing the foundation of all true religion. The foundation of the one true religion in the world is justification by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ alone. If we lose that foundation of Christ and Christ alone being the ground of our peace before God—Jesus being our righteousness, him making satisfaction for our sins, his work, his merit being applied to us by faith alone, and all of those things—if we lose that foundation, then bad theology will necessarily follow. We're just going to talk for a little bit about that foundation, the loss of it, and the fallout of that.  
  
There's a reason why we talk constantly about Jesus on this podcast. There's a reason why Jon and I, as pastors of churches, every single week in our pulpits, unashamedly herald Jesus Christ and the justification that is ours in him: because it is our understanding that this is the only firm, true, and solid foundation upon which imperfect, sinful people can stand.  
  
This is a Reformed podcast and oftentimes, we point people to the Confessions. One of the best paragraphs in the 1689 London Baptist Confession is chapter 11, paragraph one, on justification. That paragraph reads this way: "Those God effectually calls he also freely justifies." To be justified, just for the sake of clarity, is to be declared righteous. It is to be reckoned righteous. It's a legal term. It is not that we, in and of ourselves, are righteous; it's that we are deemed to be so, and we are considered that and declared to be that. So, "Those whom God effectually calls he also freely justifies. He does this, not by infusing righteousness into them," He doesn't just give us a dose of righteousness so that we then become righteous, "but by pardoning their sins and accounting and accepting them as righteous. He does this for Christ's sake alone and not for anything produced in them or done by them." That's massive. It's for Jesus's sake alone, and it's not for anything that is produced in us or anything that we do. "He does not," God, "impute faith itself, the act of believing or any other gospel obedience to them as their righteousness." This is important. It's not our faith that is our righteousness, it's not the act of believing that is our righteousness, it is not any other obedience that is our righteousness. Christ is our righteousness. "Instead, God imputes Christ's active obedience to the whole law," that's his perfect life, "and passive obedience in his death as their whole and only righteousness by faith. This faith is not self-generated; it is the gift of God."  
  
The firm foundation, in other words, is the fact that Jesus Christ is our whole and only righteousness, and we receive that righteousness by faith alone—apart from anything in us, apart from anything that we do. We don't achieve it, we receive it, and it is Christ's righteousness that's counted to wretches like us by faith. That is the firm foundation upon which true religion is built, and upon which the church stands.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's our starting point. This is where we, at Theocast, want to drive everyone towards: to understand that if your foundation is not there, you have no hope. You should not have hope. Your hope should be questionable because everything else is sinking sand, as the song says. It can absolutely not withstand the judgment requirement that God will put upon it. The weight of your sin will sink you if you are not standing on the firm foundation of Jesus Christ.  
  
Something that helped me really strongly is this: when I am dealing with somebody who is believing something that, I think, is not only unbiblical but damaging—it's hurtful to their spiritual health, they probably are going to be frustrated, and even question their assurance—when I know I'm talking to somebody like that, I can't just go over and push them off of the foundation that they're on. That not only removes their security, but anybody who feels unsafe doesn't respond well to that. It's like a scared animal: you corner a scared animal, and that's going to go sideways on you really fast.  
  
One of the things that you need to think about is that before someone can identify that they're standing on a bad foundation, you have to begin to point out the weakness of their foundation while you're pointing to a strong foundation. This is where we're getting at: the birthplace of all bad theology is when I'm talking with somebody who has what could be fundamentalism, it could be the Calvinistic pietism, or even the Charismatic theology—if you look at those systems, they're built on what I call a prop-up position, where they're trying to prop themselves up by different methods, so that they can look at those methods and then find assurance that they are good with God. I will say almost all bad theology is the attempt of finding your assurance, your right position before God, in anything else other than Jesus Christ and the finished work of Jesus Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to try to qualify what I'm about to say. When Jon and I are using the language of finding assurance, we're talking in absolute terms here. The Confessions are clear that our assurance can be bolstered, for example, by our good works, but our good works are never the foundation or the ground of our assurance. What we're talking about is ground zero. What is the foundation of our assurance and peace before the Lord? What is the foundation of our salvation, of our hope, of our confidence, of all of that? And we're speaking in absolute terms. Because this is bottom of the barrel, rubber meets the road: what is it that we're standing on? What is it that is our hope and our confidence? The answer to that question, biblically speaking, is only Jesus Christ.  
  
We're transitioning to our methodology here in the way that we're talking about this, and I trust that we'll be clear, but what we're doing constantly, as preachers or as hosts of this show, is we continue to beat the drum of Jesus Christ, his righteousness, his satisfaction, his work, and that being the only thing that you can ever trust in, hope in, rest in, or find peace in. What we're doing there is kind of a twofold thing. We're trying to extol, as much as possible, all of these things about Jesus—who he is and what he has done—so that we might look to him and be satisfied in that, and rest in that, and look to nothing else. We're doing that.  
  
But then we're also trying, like you said, to point out how these other foundations, these other things that we all tend to look to, are really lousy foundations. They're just not solid. They're weak, they're rotten, and they can't bear weight; they certainly can't bear the weight of our sin and our transgressions, the weight of our corruption. I find that that is so much of the work that I feel like I'm doing in an ongoing manner. In this podcast, it's what we're doing in an ongoing way, because we all tend to want to look to other stuff. We all tend to not just look to other stuff, but begin to put our hope in some other things. Or we fall into the trap of reasoning where there need to be these other things, there needs to be evidence, and then we start putting our hope in the evidence, and not in the groundwork of our justification, which is Christ.  
  
At points, it sounds like we're trying to have a very nuanced, splitting hairs kind of conversation, but it makes all the difference in the world to be clear, like we've said so many times. For example, things that flow out of the gospel aren't the gospel. There are all kinds of implications for our lives that do matter. There are things that are going to flow out of our justification, namely our good works, but to begin to put our hope in any way in those things is wrong. To begin to look to those things, in any way, is effectively you trying to build your Christian life, and to build your assurance, on a shaky foundation. There are many manifestations of this, which we may allude to more in just a moment, but they all come from the same place.  
  
Jon Moffitt: A house that is not built on a very solid foundation, and it starts to topple over, or you have cracks and things start falling apart. What you then have to do is prop and put things in place that should never even be there; they're not even supposed to be a part of the original design of the house. So you have this patched together house that the more you patch it, the worse that it gets. Before you know it, you're looking at it, and you're thinking there's a resemblance of a house there, but it is a convoluted mess. It is not really functioning. It seems like there's always something breaking. What you end up becoming as exhausted nearby this constant patchwork you find yourself in. Because if you put this over here, then you're imbalanced over here, and you've got to add this. I've met Christians who are so overwhelmed because they can't seem to keep everything propped up, or all the balls in the air, or all the plates spinning. There's this constant frantic feeling that if I don't hold this correctly, then this is going to fall down—and it can be manifested in multiple different ways.  
  
What makes Reformed theology so refreshing, and what was recovered during the Reformation, was the solid foundation. This is what Luther found himself. Luther was exhausted. He could not keep up. He realized the entire foundation that his entire religious experience was built on was just crushing him underneath the weight of his sin. When someone introduced to him Christ, it was like the weight was gone. He now understood that all of this bad theology that had been placed on top of him was where it came from. Once he did, he slowly started to drift away from the Roman Catholic church—not at first, he was trying to change it within and realized he couldn't do it. So, he slowly started to drift away from it. During the Reformation, that constantly happened.  
  
I will tell you that, Justin and I, that is our experience. Once we understood that our foundation was a little off, that we weren't fully standing on the sufficiency of Christ...  
  
Justin Perdue: Though we would claim to be.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Absolutely. This is the hard part about it. It's like, "No, Jon, I believe that we are saved by grace alone." What I want you to hear is that I can barely think of a theology, a bad doctrinal position, that isn't—down the road—directly propping up a bad theological position that isn't related to one's assurance in Christ. It may not be directly connected, but it is connected in some way back to the history of how they got assurance wrong, and now, because of that, you have all of these tentacles that go out that are all propping up something that was, first of all, built in the wrong place.  
  
Justin Perdue: They're all a manifestation or a form of what I would call the Jesus-Plus theology. This is part of the frustration that, I think, some of our listeners experience; I've even seen people in my own church is they're trying to talk with friends or loved ones or other people—they feel this frustration, too. Because when you talk to other people who are Christians, they, of course, are going to agree with you: we are saved by grace, through faith in Christ alone. If they're Protestant, they're going to absolutely affirm that. But then, a lot of times, people like our listeners or people in our churches, as they're trying to talk with others, they get frustrated because they're like, "No, you don't get it. You're saying you agree with me, but you don't really agree with me." Like you said earlier, Jon, they're emailing and calling us and asking, "What do I do? How do I help people see?" A lot of times our response is unsatisfactory for people because we'll tell them that they need to be patient and gracious. They need to be winsome, kind, and humble. They need to play the long game; they need to just love these people and slow drip this stuff over the course of time, and trust the Lord with it. People are saying, "Okay, but that just doesn't seem like a sufficient plan of attack here. I got to have something else."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Can I jump in real quick? What I hear is this: "But, Jon, they don't see how bad this is." I'm like, "You should hear yourself. You're right. They don't see it. Which means you should be patient."  
  
Justin Perdue: You even said something like this before we recorded today: you're not going to convince people of their own off-centered, not great theology by always punching them in the face. There are other ways to go about doing it that are actually more effective. For us, the posture that we take, as a general rule here at Theocast, is to continue to unashamedly, over and over and over again, every time we record and every time we preach, point people to Christ and him alone. We're preaching that and nuancing that in different ways every time we talk about it. It's like that proverbial diamond—we just kind of keep slightly turning it and letting people just gaze at it.  
  
What we're trying to do there is at least a couple of things: one, we're trying to so catechize people as to what the real thing is that they then, over the course of time, are better able to recognize the counterfeit. They realize, "This thing over here that I'm thinking about, or I'm trusting in a little bit, I realize that I'm off, and that that's not Jesus and thereby it will fail me." They'll realize that every time. The other thing that we're trying to do is show them by constantly heralding Christ and extolling him. We're trying to help them see the beauty and the goodness of Christ, and the fact that he really is sufficient. It's a twofold thing. You're helping them see the error, but then you're also helping them to just steep and soak in Jesus, so that they are satisfied in Christ, and that they are resting in him, and really do believe that Christ will do, and that there isn't anything else that they need to add into it.  
  
It can't be done overnight. It takes time. That's why we exhort people to patience and graciousness as they deal with people who don't yet see this stuff. Because it will happen. Sometimes it takes a while, but when it happens, it's very clear—the light bulb goes off, the toothpaste is out of the tube and they can't get it back in, but they don't want to anyway because it is so good. It's worth the wait.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the things that I even used to do when I was first in ministry dealing with college students, I was always trying to correct every little thing that was off and wrong that they had. I never really understood how they were all connected—their perspective on this and their perspective on that. It was always, "Let's look at this Bible verse." The longer I was a pastor, I started to realize that almost every little thing I was dealing with was a symptom of a greater problem. If you can identify that almost all theological issues are directly connected to an assurance issue—and to be clear, when I say there's a result of a result, someone can ask how this is directly connected to the doctrine of assurance, and that might just be a theological difference within Christianity. Let's be clear: denominations; if you're not a Baptist, then there's an assurance issue, not necessarily. Let's be clear on that. What I'm talking about is real theological issues. If you can understand that the root cause of this is directly connected.  
  
What I try and do is I walk people backwards. Why do you think it's necessary that you perform or do this, or believe this? Or hold to that or not hold to that? Or not partake in that? Then you start walking them back. Eventually, what I'm trying to do is I'm having them look at where they're looking to. If I do this, or if I don't do this, what am I looking to that it will perform or not perform? Or what will it do in my heart and my mind? We were even saying, before the podcast got started, that we were thinking about the Charismatic movement, and that a lot of people in that movement truly just want to see the power of God in a world where we've lost sight of how glorious and powerful God is. How do you fault that desire?  
  
Justin Perdue: They want to see the power of God because they don't think that the power of God is not demonstrably at work in many churches. I'm with you there.  
  
I want to comment on something that you said, and we've said this a few times already, but sometimes nuance is helpful for people as they listen. Sometimes, you need to hear it said a couple of different ways and then it clicks. Like you said, Jon, the birthplace of all bad theology can be traced back to compromising what the Scripture teaches with respect to justification. What I mean specifically is it can all be traced back to trying to add something, in some form or fashion, to Christ in his work. And really, when we say justification, we mean we're declared righteous now and forever—not just peace with God now, peace with God forever. Whenever you start bringing anything else into that equation—anything other than Jesus, who he is, and what he's done—inevitably, bad theology follows from that. It doesn't matter if you're talking about Jesus plus circumcision, or Jesus plus a work of the Law, or Jesus plus speaking in tongues, or whatever it was if you fill in the blank, or Jesus plus abstinence from certain kinds of behaviors. We could go on and on and on. Any time it's Jesus and something, we've lost the only foundation on which the church can stand. We could rant on that for a while.  
  
What we're trying to draw out here is that there are so many ways, and what's hard here is that many of them are so subtle. Because, again, you're going to ask people how are they justified, and they're going to say Christ. But then functionally and practically, it becomes quite clear that it is Jesus and this other stuff that is the ground of our hope. In some contexts, it's like, "I'm hoping in Christ but you need to be concerned about good works." In other contexts, "I'm hoping in Christ but you need to be concerned with speaking in tongues and the baptism of the Holy Spirit." In other contexts, "I'm hoping in Christ but you need to be concerned about your affections and your disciplines." And in other contexts, "I'm hoping in Christ but you need to be concerned about the kind of media that you're consuming, what kind of movies you're watching, what kind of music you're listening to, and how you dress for church on Sunday."  
  
It's very clear that to hope in Christ alone always has been, and still is, and always will be, scandalous. Because in our like legal spirits, we are always wanting to be able to contribute something or point to some other stuff. We have such a hard time with the biblical distinction of Christ as the only hope we have. He is our whole and only righteousness. He is the ground of our salvation now and in the future. And then, yes, having been united to Jesus, and having been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, there will be outflow from that. We have such a hard time keeping those things distinct. We want to meld them together to where the outflow and the groundwork become merged. Then you give the whole thing away.  
  
That's why we keep doing what we're doing. That's why we keep talking about the same stuff week after week, We keep preaching the same stuff week after week, because it's absolutely imperative that we get this right.  
  
Jon Moffitt: For the last few minutes, we will look at a couple of passages where Justin and I find a lot of hope and security in what we teach, and where we would say we base our entire ministries, no matter if it's on a podcast or sitting across in a counseling session.  
  
The apostle Paul overwhelmingly places this foundation of Christ upon almost any letter that he writes. In the second chapter of Colossians, towards the end, Paul is bringing us into the beauty and glory of Christ: "If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—"Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh." Where does he say to put the foundation of the Christian life? He says, "If you've been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things that are above, not on things of the earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." Hidden with Christ in God. He's saying, "This is what the world is telling you to do to govern you, and I'm telling you that you need to rest in your identity in Christ, where your Advocate, your Savior, is seated at the right hand of God, and you are hidden away," meaning that it's this concept that nothing can find you to steal you back. The foundation is always being pressed back in on my assurances in Christ, and that is the foundation.  
  
To even go back to Corinthians when Paul says, "I want to make nothing known among you, except for Christ, and him crucified." There is more that comes out of Paul's mouth than just the message of the gospel, but he's talking about a foundation for their faith. To him, on a foundation level, this is the most important thing before he says anything else.  
  
Justin Perdue: 1 Corinthians 1-2, since you're there right now, he does say, "I endeavor to know nothing among you other than Christ and him crucified," but a few verses earlier than that, he's been talking about the gospel, in particular, the message of Christ crucified, and Christ for sinners is the power of God unto salvation. Then he goes on to say that because of God, we are in Christ, who has become to us wisdom from God, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, so that it is written, "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord." Paul is very clear there. We could talk about Ephesians and how Paul starts that letter. We could talk about Romans in the first seven chapters. 2 Peter one. 1 John is replete with stuff, in the first couple of chapters, and throughout in terms of the confession of Christ becoming flesh, and how, when we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father and all these things.  
  
Then, of course, Romans. Paul lays out a number of things there, including how he sets up a beautiful argument that he lands there at the end of Romans 3, that God is a righteous judge, everybody is wicked, nobody does good, so we're in trouble, and now the righteousness of God has been revealed apart from the Law. Though the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it, it is the righteousness of God by faith for all those who believe in Christ.  
  
The one that immediately comes to mind for me, when we have this conversation, is Galatians. It is the book as has been said by a number of people. My former mentor in the faith used to say that Galatians is the book in the New Testament with the sharpest elbows, because Paul really is in the lane throwing bows. I think the scandal of that book is not that Paul is blowing up works righteousness—that's not what he's doing. He is blowing up Jesus-Plus theology. It's important for you to understand that. Because it's not that the people in the Galatian context were being told to keep the Law and be saved, they were being told, "Believe in Jesus and be circumcised. Believe in Jesus and obey the Law in this way." That is what it really is to be a Christian, and to be saved, and have peace with the Lord. Paul is so sharp in his language about it. If you are going to uphold any work of the Law, you better keep all of them. If you're going to uphold a work of the Law, then you are cut off from Christ and you've fallen away from grace. That's what we're trying to say here. We're trying to speak in maybe a pointed way, like Paul does in the letter to the Galatians, to defend the exclusivity of Christ as being the way that sinners are saved, and counted righteous, and their sins are paid for and satisfied for, and you can't add anything to Jesus or you compromise the whole thing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Our hearts are so quick. You've been saying it over and over again: Jesus plus. Our hearts are so quick. We've been having a lot more quotes being posted out there lately, and the comments on there, people are really quick to say, "Yeah, but James says faith without works is dead." People are so quick to want to point you to the performance of the individual. What's interesting to me is that there are a couple of passages in the Bible that do say faith without works is dead. In context, it's very important to understand why James feels the need to say that, just like 1 John feels the need to say certain things, which is a whole other podcast for another reason. Or maybe we'll just say it for the members' podcast.  
  
My point is that when you think about that tendency that we have, and with Theocast, it's just heightened for us—I just feel it all the time. Anytime we put something out there that is Jesus only, it scares people.  
  
Justin Perdue: It frightens the daylights out of people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I am sympathetic, but at the same time, you have to understand what we are trying to do is pull everything out of people's hands and say, do not ever trust in anything else. This is what Paul says to the Galatians. "Know that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham." It is faith alone in Christ. It's not faith in our faith. It's not faith in our faithfulness. It's faith in Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: I feel like I have a lot more to say, Jon, and we're going to go over now and say some of it in the members' podcast. If you're listening to us, and you are interested to be able to continue this conversation with us, and you don't know what the members' podcast is, you can find more information about that at our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is like the team meeting for me. This is where I get to talk to my fellow teammates and say, "Hey, look, here's some encouragement and motivation for you." Those of you that are trying to love people graciously towards Christ, stay tuned. We got something for you.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's what the members' podcast is: to be able to talk with those that are tracking with us and seeing the wonderful peace, rest, joy, and freedom that is found in Christ, and want others to be able to see and experience this too. We're having a conversation amongst ourselves to better understand these things, and then to hopefully better be able to help other people.  
  
Hopefully that makes sense. Make your way on over to the members' podcast and join us for that conversation. We'd love to have you there. For those of you that may not be able to do that this week, we look forward to speaking with you again next week.

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### Self-Examination?

*Published: February 3, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/self-examination*
*Tags: 2021, Assurance, NC, Self-Examination*

Should you regularly be questioning your salvation? What about self-examination? When and how should you do that? The guys answer these questions and consider several passages of Scripture that speak to these issues.  
  
Members' Podcast: The guys pointedly answer the question posed by John Piper's article, "How often should you question your salvation?"  
  
[**Link to Article**](https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/how-often-should-i-question-my-salvation)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUwyFihK7X0&feature=emb\_title

### **Podcast Transcript**

Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. We have a question for you: should you be examining yourself? Should you be self-examining every day? Should you even be listening to this podcast? That's a great question. In today's podcast, we're going to talk about self-examination and we're going to look at several passages in the Bible that tell us that we should examine ourselves—does it really? We're going to look at them in context.  
  
Then in the members' podcast, we are going to review an article that came out by a prominent evangelical that asks the question, "How often should we be examining ourselves as Christians?" We hope you enjoy.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If you have been listening to Theocast for a long time, you're going to know that one of the things that we often reference is this idea of self-examination or turning the believer inward. Whenever we talk about that, we talk about that in a negative way, that one of the things of the evangelical church is to constantly point the believer inward to examine themselves, to see whether or not they are in the faith. This doesn't come from nowhere. There are some Scriptures that we will reference later in this podcast that do talk about examining yourself, and we hope to frame those in context.  
  
The reason why we began talking about this—and when I say we, I mean Jon, Justin, and myself—is that recently there was an interview posted of a prominent evangelical leader that in essence is trying to answer the question, "How often should I question my salvation?" or, "How often should I examine myself?" We thought it would be helpful to add our own thoughts into this conversation of how to answer that. How often should we question our salvation and how often should we examine ourselves? That's where we are going today. I want to throw it to the guys here and see how they would answer that, or why it is that we want to answer that question.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is such an important conversation because so many people are crippled by this. I would say all three of us, as pastors, have had to deal with this, and even with listeners who write in. People really do struggle with the constant examination. I will say the words that come to all three of our minds are these: it's exhausting. This is an exhausting conversation because there is no end to the conversation. There's no end to the examination. Can you just imagine living in a glass house where you're constantly at the threat of being thrown out because of a mishap? That's what it feels like. This comes from pietism. (We did a podcast on this a couple of weeks ago and I encourage you to go listen to it.) But at its core, this is pietism. It's the constant self-examination.  
  
This is why I take the biggest issue with this type of self-examination: some people will do it to say, "I don't know if I truly am a believer so I need to confirm to myself that I'm a believer." You have to ask yourself, what saves you? Is it your good works or the good works of Jesus? You are saved by works. The question is: is it your good works? If you're looking to your good works as the confirmation of your faith, you now have reasons to boast. That's Ephesians 2:8-9\. But if you are saved by the works of Christ, Paul says you don't have reasons to be boasting, so we're going to boast all the more in Christ. This constant introspective self-examination—what you're trying to do is you're trying to prove to you, and everybody around you, and to God, that you're legitimate.  
  
Let me just encourage you that God never worries or wonders who His children are. If you know that God is sovereign, God does not need you to prove to Him anything. You need to look to God to confirm that God will do what He said He's going to do. My biggest and overarching first examination of this, which we are going to look at probably the two biggest passages: 2 Corinthians and 2 Peter that mentioned these, but just from the beginning, theologically speaking, you have to understand that our sovereign God never wonders who belongs to Him.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen. At the risk of sounding like a smart aleck, I might answer the question of how often we should question our salvation, or how often we should be examining ourselves, by saying you should pursue good works and flee from sin, as you trust Christ as the ground of your peace, before God. Always. That's probably how I would respond. Then begin to unpack that statement for people, that your status in Christ Jesus, by faith, is one of justified. Your identity is that you are now in Christ: you've been united to him, and everything that is his is yours, including his righteousness, his holiness, and the satisfaction that he has made for sins.  
  
In speaking that way, we are speaking like the apostles write. When they write to their audiences, they always begin with Christ and his finished work. They always begin with the identity question. Who are we? They begin with the question of status, and justification, and the rest. Then they encourage their readers to live accordingly. We see this pattern maybe most clearly demonstrated in Ephesians. I know we reference that book all the time. We see things like this elsewhere from other apostles. We're going to talk about 2 Peter 1 here in just a minute, but you see this in John's first letter. 1 John is oftentimes, I think, abused and would be understood by many to be this letter that's essentially a litmus test of salvation. I don't think that's what the apostle is doing at all. He's encouraging saints who have been abandoned and who have been bombarded by false teaching. He is encouraging them that they are legit, that they're in Christ, and that is evidenced by how they're living. He is not telling them to pursue righteousness and to love one another in order that they would prove that they're legit. He's saying, "No, you are legit, and it's evidenced by what you're doing and how you're living together." It's just a very different posture that the apostles seem to take.  
  
I think this hyper-introspective, turning-people-back-in-on-themselves, this prove-that-you're-legit kind of theology is pietistic. All it serves to do is feed this monster of us always questioning how God feels about us, because we do that naturally. We always assume that God is happier with us when we're doing well from our perspective and that He is not as happy with us, and somehow we can't be as bold or as assured before Him, if we're struggling. That's not what the apostles say. Thinking about Ephesians 3, Paul says that we have boldness and access, with confidence, before God, through our faith in Jesus Christ. It's Ephesians 3:11-12\. Not through how we're performing.  
  
So, we've got to begin this conversation by saying those things or people are going to be led into despair and despondency.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: A little bit of history as to where this kind of approach to the Christian life came from: around the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, moving into the 17th century, as Protestant teaching moved across Europe—you had Scottish Presbyterianism, you had the Church of England, you had German Lutheranism. Often, one of the downfalls that you see, as different strains of Protestantism began to differentiate themselves from other strains of Protestantism, is you would have these long diatribes, these long conversations, about theological matters that would often happen in the ivory towers of universities, and writings, and so on and so forth. And that's good. That's fun. It's good to read and deep dive into stuff like that. But this reaction to that, this swing-the-pendulum-the-other-way is you have other movements that began to rise; particularly Lutheran pietism within the German Lutheranism, but also Methodism within more of the English speaking world of Protestantism.  
  
The question began to change. What I mean by that is the question of what it meant to be a Christian changed from "Are you sound theologically?" to "Do you believe in the right things about the nature and character of God, and the gospel, and Jesus," and so on and so forth. It changed from "Are you sound?" to "Are you even saved?" That's where pietism began to be born and birthed and grew. As Christianity moved to the United States, this is the version of Christianity that actually moved to the United States. We've said this before: evangelical Christianity in the United States is a pietistic movement. You mix that version of Christianity, this hyper-individualized, hyper-focused inward version of Christianity, with the rugged individualism of the American spirit, and this is what you get: you get a Christianity that is focused on asking, "Am I even saved?"  
  
I think a lot of people enjoy this kind of Christianity, because what it does is it helps create categories, not of theology, but it creates categories of people. That on this side, over here, we have the true Christians. They not only go to church, but they take church seriously, and they take obedience seriously, and they take the Christian life seriously. Then you have Christians over here. These people go to church, but they're nominal, they're carnal. They don't take the faith seriously. For whatever reason, we love to do this. One, I think it's comparative righteousness. We like to compare. I want to compare my rags to your rags, and it doesn't matter because they're all rags anyway.  
  
That's just a little history of what we are talking about here. Whenever we read passages like 2 Corinthians 13:5: "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith," we have to understand that we have a slew of below the surface of the water iceberg preconceived notions of what that means because of how we've been raised to think about Christianity.  
  
Justin Perdue: At the heart of every holiness movement throughout the history of the church is a suspicion that if you emphasize doctrine, if you emphasize and tell people that Jesus has done everything, that Christ is sufficient, and that there's nothing left to do in order to be reconciled to God, then you're going to produce apathetic and lawless people. As we've said so many times, that would be true if salvation was a natural process that man achieved—but it isn't. It's a supernatural work of God from beginning to end, and the Holy Spirit, taking up residence within us and doing the sanctifying work that He does, makes it certain that those who have trusted Christ will be conformed into his image.  
  
If union with Christ weren't a thing then okay, maybe if you were just to emphasize what Jesus has done, you might produce lawlessness and apathy. But as it stands, that just doesn't hold. That's an age old objection that falls flat on its face, I think, empirically.  
  
A thought here just really quickly—Jimmy, to pick up on something that you were saying about how the question, at some point in history, changed from theological soundness to whether one is saved—I think it's interesting that when you listen to most people talk about self-examination in the church today, the question that they always are asking is something like, "How am I doing? How am I behaving?" They are never asking the question, "Who am I trusting?" That, I think, is indicative of what's going on, because one of those two questions is of first importance—and it's not the one about your behavior. The primary question is, "What do you believe?" Even referencing 1 John, again, notice how he makes a massive deal about their confession, about whether they believe that Christ came in the flesh, and about whether they believe that Christ had accomplished specific things for them, and whether or not they believe that they are actually sinners. He begins with that stuff. Then alongside that encourages them that they are living legitimate lives.  
  
It's very interesting that we, in our modern context, will just poo-poo the confession piece. It's like, "You can say you believe anything, but you got to really prove your mettle by how you're living and prove that you're legit." What you believe is over here, and the real rubber-meets-the-road of the Christian life is how you are doing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's the core of the matter: what the examination process is the list that's often given to people that they need to be examining. I look at that and think that it is so far from biblical, it's not even funny. The Bible doesn't tell me to examine myself against that watermark—you set that watermark on it.  
  
We did a whole podcast on this, so I'm going to say it, and I know it sounds punchy, but I need you to hear this: your political voting and your Bible reading are not the watermark of examination of whether you're in the faith. I'm sorry. I've heard people basically say, "Are you reading your Bible? How can you not read your Bible at all and consider yourself to be a Christian?"  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It's the wrong question.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When I moved to Tennessee from California, during the first winter we had, I was looking for a beanie. I wanted to cover my ears. When I asked for a beanie, they looked at me and they said, "A toboggan?" I was like, "A toboggan? No, you slide in that. That's an Olympic sport. It's a beanie." And they're like, "No, it's a toboggan." What's interesting to me is that I had a context to a word that if someone were to walk up to me and say, "Do you want a toboggan?" I would say, "I don't have a truck. No, I don't want a toboggan." In their mind, they're thinking beanie. Well, this is what's going on when we read "examine yourself" when Paul says it in 2 Peter. We put a context on it because we have been so programmed in pietism. We immediately assume examination is prayer, Bible reading, making sure we're not cussing, making sure we're good coworkers. We immediately put a context on it, where Paul has a context of what he means—which I'm going to let Justin take us there in a second. 2 Peter—we'll talk about that. There's a context and a purpose of what's being said there. So, I think we need to clarify those.  
  
This article that we referenced—he mentions both of them. I think what's frustrating for me is that his context—toboggan versus beanie—I think he's missing it. He has an understanding of the passage that is not appropriate because he's placing the history of pietism on the text and missing actually what Paul is trying to call the Corinthian church to, which is not examination of performance of things that the Bible says we need to never perform.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Here's the thing: I want to play devil's advocate a little bit, because one of the accusations that we've received is, "You guys are taking passages that have been understood like this, and you're just saying it doesn't say that. You're not doing a plain reading of the text." And so on and so forth.  
  
I'm reading it right now—2 Corinthians 13:5: "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith." It seems pretty clear. If you just want to approach the Bible as is, Paul is saying it right there. Not only there, but in 2 Peter: make your calling and your election. You have 1 Corinthians 10:11, where Paul is saying that before they go to the Lord's Table, they are to examine themselves. If we're doing a plain reading of the text, and if we are going to take the Bible as is, somebody's off here. So, help me understand.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'll take the Corinthians pieces really quickly, and you guys jump in.  
  
This is Bible exegesis, hermeneutics 101—and I'm not trying to sound snarky in saying that. But, for example, if I wrote you a letter, and let's say it's 10 pages long, and you jumped onto page nine and landed in one particular paragraph, in one particular sentence and read it, you could conclude any number of things from that one sentence that may or may not fit well in the context of that entire letter that I've written to you. I would contend, in both of these instances—the 1 Corinthians 11 piece about the Lord's supper, and the 2 Corinthians 13 piece about self-examination—the context of the entire letters are critical for our understanding.  
  
In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul is talking about the Lord's Supper there. He is making it quite plain that there is division. Division in the church at Corinth is an issue that shows up early in the letter. He comes back to it again in chapter 11, about how there is division amongst them; in particular, there is division that is manifesting itself at the time when the church ought to be most unified—that is communion around the Lord's Table. It is that division within the body that Paul is addressing when he's talking about examining themselves (in the plural) to come to the Table. Then, in the 2 Corinthians 13 piece, a major issue in that entire letter is the legitimacy of Paul's apostolic ministry—whether or not Paul is legit in comparison to these so-called super apostles that it seems that many in Corinth are chasing after. So, Paul, in saying what he does about self-examination, says, "Examine yourselves to see whether or not you are in the faith." Then he goes on to talk about himself, and whether or not he's met the test, and his legitimacy, and everything else. He is essentially saying to them, "You have believed the message that I've preached. People are saved through believing the message that we preach. So, if you think that my ministry is entirely illegitimate, then you need to question a number of things, including whether or not you are legitimately in Christ."  
  
Again, I think context is critical. People say this: the three keys to biblical interpretation are context, context, and context. Just put those in practice, please, when we begin to interpret letters.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It's as if Paul is saying, "Look, if you want to examine me, you need to examine yourselves. If you want to bring me on trial, you need to put yourself on trial."  
  
Jon Moffitt: He's not talking about moral behavior. What Jimmy was talking about is that Paul was questioning their theological stance.  
  
Justin Perdue: He's getting at the issue of weakness and power. Allah, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation—that kind of weakness and power paradigm is what he's dealing with, clearly, even in chapter 13 of 2 Corinthians.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If you do a deep dive into 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians, you will realize that Paul dearly loves this church, but is also deeply frustrated by them. They're screwy and they have all sorts of nonsense happening in their church. When you read, particularly, the end of 2 Corinthians 13:1, it's like he's saying, "This is the third time I'm coming to you. Have we not been over this? I guess I'm coming back. We're going to have Christianity 101 all over again." It's not that he's coming to them because of their morality, he's coming to them saying, "I have preached the true gospel to you."  
  
Jon, take us to take us to Peter.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One could argue that Peter is talking about morality because he makes this long mention of things that we should be adding to our faith. Let's look at this again in context, instead of just looking at the section that says, "Examine yourself." Look at verse three; it says, "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire." What Peter means in the first three verses is very plain: God's power and divine grace have saved you. How do you know that? His promises. That's how you know it's true. God's giving you everything that you need to live this life. How do you know that to be true? Look at his promises; He's been faithful to fulfill them. That's how you confirm it.  
  
Then he keeps going: "For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge..." There's a long list here: self-control, brotherly affection—for the sake of time, we're not going to read the whole list. Then he says in verse eight, "For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." To which we say amen. If you're not showing brotherly affection, kindness, and mercy, you are going to be hurting the mission of the church.  
  
Justin Perdue: And you're going to be ineffective.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. Then he says, "For whoever lacks these qualities is so near-sighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you are practicing these qualities, you will never fall." Here's the question: what qualities is he talking about in the context? If he is talking about falling away from your salvation, and he points to these actions, then what you're arguing is that Peter says you maintain and keep your salvation by actions. But how can you say that if he says in the first three verses that everything we need is by His divine power, not only for life, but for godliness. I think the qualities he's talking about are the qualities of the faith by which the first three verses set us up with. Because he says, "Add to this." He doesn't say to base it upon.  
  
Your foundation is the gospel—always the gospel—and then the outflow of the gospel are these good works. If these good works aren't happening, he's saying you forgot the foundation. The examination goes back to Christ.  
  
Here's what I think is so frustrating to me: Galatians 6:1 says, "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness." How are you going to restore them? According to Peter, you're going to restore them, reminding them that they've been cleansed, and they're not walking in a manner that is in reflection to how they have been cleansed. You don't call them to question their salvation—you call them back to their salvation. You're pointing back to their baptism in Christ saying, "You need to act like what you are, not call it into question; unless they're denying the faith—that's different. That's another conversation.  
  
Justin Perdue: 2 Peter 1, especially 2 Peter 1:9, sounds almost identical to the argument of Paul in Romans 6:1 and following. Peter is effectively saying in 2 Peter 1 that whoever lacks these qualities—and he is there, I think, talking about some of those virtues that he has listed—whoever lacks these things has forgotten the work of Christ on his behalf; whoever lacks these things is forgotten who he is.  
  
Like you said, Jon, the foundation, the primary consideration is what has Jesus done for you and who you are in him. Recall these things, believe these things, and then flowing out of that will be these other things that Peter is speaking to.  
  
Paul in Romans 6\. Many will be familiar with the end of Romans 5 and how Paul makes the argument so that as sin reigned in death, grace would also reign through righteousness, leading to eternal life through Christ Jesus, our Lord, and how that as sin increases, grace abounds all the more. So then the question is: are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? And Paul says by no means. Then he effectively says to remember who you are. He responds with identity in Jesus and union with Christ. "You've been baptized into the Lord Jesus and raised to walk in newness of life in him. You've been delivered from the dominion of sin. You now are obedient from the heart. Remember your identity." This is how the apostles always talk. They don't say, "Oh, well, you've asked that question. Are you even a Christian?" No, it's always, "you've asked this question and let me answer you with your identity, your status, and your union with Christ."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Even Disney gets this. This is in _The Lion King_. Remember when prodigal Simba is going back and forth and Mufasa comes out of the clouds. What does he say? "Remember who you are." and then Simba goes, "That's right. I'm the son of the King." Disney gets this better than most.  
  
Justin Perdue: Better than evangelicalism.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's right. Justin, to reiterate what you said earlier where the approach that we're attacking wants to wake up in the morning or go to bed at night and ask the question, "Did I do enough things today to make my life ensured?" The question needs to be, "Did I trust Christ today?"  
  
Honestly, can I just be real here and say where we want to spiritualize so many things, I think the apostles would say, "Guys, just use common sense." Just a heavy dose of common sense. When you participate within the life of the church, don't be a jerk, don't be mean, don't be cunning, don't be judging people. Be patient bearing with one another in love as you wait for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's common sense. This is how I discipline my own children.  
  
Justin Perdue: It is common sense. I think the apostles think so, too. Peter even goes on to use this language: that part of what he intends to do is to stir up his readers by way of reminder. He's not yelling at them. He's just trying to stir them up and remind them of these things, that they might live a life that is fruitful, and that they might be of good in the church for the sake of their brothers and sisters and all the rest. That's, I think, how we ought to approach this as pastors as well.  
  
We say this all the time. One of the things that makes pietism what it is that it has this edginess to it all the time; this exacting and this threatening tone. Jon, you use the language of "prove yourself" all the time. I think that's right. We've already alluded to that today. But there's always this, "You may, through your negligence, irresponsibility, apathy, or whatever, you may end up proving yourself to be a non-believer." There's always that kind of edge to this thing. It's always this sort of suspicion that everybody's nominal and we need to smoke out the fakers. It affects how we communicate in the church. Even this question of self-examination becomes a frightening prospect, when in reality, I think the New Testament tone and tenor is one of, "No, I want to remind you of these things. I want to encourage you. I want to stir you up. Here is who you are. Let me be used by God to help you in this Christian life, that you might be fruitful, and that you might be good for your neighbor."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Have you guys ever been in a group of people where whatever it is they're talking about, like for me the other day, it was college football—and I don't know because I don't really watch, but I know football and I love football—and these guys are naming names and I don't even know who these people are. These guys could say, "Jon, you're a faker. You don't like football. If you really like football, you would know this stuff." They would call me a faker. So, what do you want me to do? You basically say you want me to not offend you by saying I like football, because if I really liked football, then I would know this stuff. This is what Christianity does. We get offended because, "How dare you call yourself a Christian and you don't live to the level that I live? That is ridiculous. How dare you take this name on?"  
  
Here's what's so funny to me. Christians are called to be on a rescue mission. Our job is to take the light of Christ into a dark world so that those who are lost may find Christ. If I'm sitting next to a guy who is a poser, it's like, "Nope, he's not really a believer. He says he is, but he's not." That means he's an unbeliever. That means he's most likely confused and has been led astray. I'm probably sure he's a wolf in sheep's clothing. I have two options: I can beat them over the head and call them an idiot, or I can give them the thing that will save him, which is the gospel, and clarify the gospel. Because if he's not a believer, it means he doesn't understand the gospel nor believe it.  
  
What we hear in things like "examine yourself" is that they're beating people. You're giving them a litmus test instead of the thing that can actually transform someone's life to want to love, to want to obey, to want to pursue Christ. The only thing that transforms people is the gospel. It's not fear. It's not self-examination.  
  
Let me go back. Look at 2 Peter 1:10: "Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities, you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." If you think your obedience is your entrance into the Kingdom, that's the problem. Back up to verse three; he's saying it's God's divine power through his promises that give you the rich entrance. What our dear friends, who obviously are not acting as if they should, if they say, "I'm a Christian," and then they're denying truths, what they need is Christ and the gospel. They need a gentle hand to love them. As Galatians 6:1 says, go to such a one with meekness and restore them. What I'm hearing is, "Y'all better get your act together, or you may not be saved and that's a bad thing." I just don't see that tone coming from Scripture to the broader evangelical world.  
  
Justin Perdue: I couldn't agree more strongly, Jon, with your take. We've said this before, that if you really think there are nominal people sitting in your church, if there are people that are Christian in name only, and they're not really Christians, then why in the world are we not heralding the gospel to these people? Why is it that we're only just bombarding them and beating them over the head with Law, as though that's going to save them? It's very contradictory and inconsistent. If that's really what we think is going on, we ought to exhort them to trust Christ, because that is the foundation of what it is to be a Christian.  
  
I want to pivot slightly to pick up on some stuff that you both have said over the course of the podcast and that we've been considering. I think that one of the things in the article that we are referencing that is good is the acknowledgment that we need community, that we need the church, and that we need to live in the context of other brothers and sisters who can help us live the Christian life, and exhort us, and everything else.  
  
I think that what we need to acknowledge is that in a church where the gospel is preached and Christ is heralded, and people are living life together in an intentional way, there will be all kinds of watching over each other going on, where people are going to be admonishing each other. They're going to be encouraging each other. They're going to be exhorting each other. They're going to be correcting each other at points, looking at each other saying, "Hey, brother, you realize that's a bad idea for you to do that?" That's just going to be going on in terms of the resting heart rate of the church. It's just part of the culture.  
  
But then, the Scripture gives us a mechanism to deal with people that are absolutely not living their life in alignment with their profession—it's called church discipline. It's going to be very clear. It's going to be clear and demonstrable. It's going to take place over a season of time. It's going to be hard-hearted, high-handed, unrepentant sin—and it's going to become very clear. Then we remove those people from the church, we keep them from the Table, that they might be restored. But I feel like what people think we need to be doing is going about all the time with this posture of doubting and being suspicious of everybody's profession, waiting to drop the hammer. That is just so far from what the New Testament exhorts us to.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Can I just interject really quickly, Justin, and I'll hand it back over to you? This is what happened with Kanye West. Everybody went, "Well, we'll see." I'm so glad that Jesus didn't say that to me.  
  
Justin Perdue: Sure, time will tell, but what we want to do in the church is invite people in. "You've professed faith in Christ. Let's baptize you. Let's bring you into the fellowship of the saints. Let's admit you to the Table. Let's preach Christ. Let's love each other. We trust God will keep His promises, He is utterly faithful to us, and is going to preserve us to the end." It's not this suspicious posture all the time. As I said earlier, if it becomes very clear, over a season of time, that you were just hard-hearted and unrepentant, we have a mechanism for that, and we will do that, and we will wield that instrument carefully.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Most Christians are exhausted because they tread theological water all the time, instead of resting in Christ. No wonder people have constant doubt. They're saying, "I don't know if I believe enough." It doesn't matter how much you believe it. Can Jesus save you? That's the point.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It's not the quality of faith; it's your object of faith. Just to go with what you said, and this is the last thing I'll say before I drop a bomb on you guys, is we often want to treat Jesus like he's the varsity football coach on day one of tryouts. Like he's standing before everybody, saying, "We'll see who will last by the end of the week." And that's just not it when Jesus says in Matthew 11, "I'm gentle and lowly in heart." After the day of full contact, I'm exactly the guy you want to talk to.  
  
The title of the article, _How Often Should I Question My Salvation?_ —I do think we should answer that pointedly in the members' podcast. Not that we skirted around it, but let's give a clear answer.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We'll put that article in the notes if you want to read it. Join us on the members'.  
  
Speaking of, we are going to move over to our members' podcast. This is, what I want to call, an intimate conversation with those who join in and really want to help herald this message across the world. We have a little bit more pointed conversations with those who are our partners.  
  
If you want to learn more about that and how to help Theocast encourage and get more from us, we have so much on our website. You can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and look at our membership there. It's a way of partnering with us. Just so you know, it’s how we keep producing all that we're doing.  
  
Thank you for listening. We pray this was encouraging to you. Our main goal, our main desire at Theocast, the three of us, is that we may remove the clutter that's put on the gospel and help you find rest in Christ. We pray that you've already started that journey and that you trust that Jesus is sufficient to save you, sanctify you, and glorify you. We'll see you next week.

---

### What Is-and Is Not-the Gospel?

*Published: January 27, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel*
*Tags: Gospel*

There are a number of things discussed in the church as though they are part of the gospel--things like faith, repentance, obedience, and surrendering all to Jesus. But are these things the gospel? The guys have that conversation.  
  
Members' Podcast: The guys have a pastoral conversation about how the gospel isn't about us at all.  
  
**Recommended Resources:**  
["Faith vs Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest"](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/primer)  
["Safe in Christ: A Primer on Assurance"](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/product-category/books/safe-in-christ/)  
[Episode: Law/Gospel](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction/)  
[Episode: Assurance](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/assurance-podcast/)  
["The Whole Christ" by Sinclair Ferguson](http://amzn.to/2wCGRwM)  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmrZA951WYU

---

### Is Christ-Centered Preaching Dangerous?

*Published: January 20, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous*
*Tags: Christ Centered Preaching, preaching, Redemptive Historical*

Jon and Justin discuss an article entitled, “4 Ways Bad Biblical Theology Warps Sermons.” Is Christ-centered, redemptive-historical preaching dangerous? Is it unhelpful? Does it produce bad things in the church? The guys talk about this—and more.  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about the concerns that might be underneath an article like the one discussed in today's episode.  
  
[Article: 4 Ways Bad Biblical Theology Warps Sermons](https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/4-ways-bad-biblical-theology-warps-sermons/)  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous-transcript/) [**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62fNzw\_xasM

---

### Leaving Pietism

*Published: January 13, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/leaving-pietism*
*Tags: Pietism*

At Theocast, we talk a lot about pietism. What is it? What is the difference in piety and pietism? How does pietism affect us? Is there something better? If you find yourself struggling in the Christian life, is there something wrong with you? The guys answer these questions and more.  
  
Members Podcast Description: The guys give advice to those who are stuck in a pietistic context.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/leaving-pietism-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-leaving-pietism/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_UbF22sguOg

---

### Did We Fail 2020?

*Published: January 6, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/did-we-fail-2020*

2020 has been a difficult year. (Understatement.) Jon and Justin reflect on what they have learned, as well as the faithfulness of God.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys continue reflecting on 2020 and the faithfulness of God.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/did-we-fail-2020-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-did-we-fail-2020/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AoPZY0lp0M

---

### The Implications of the Incarnation

*Published: December 21, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-implications-of-the-incarnation*
*Tags: Christmas, Incarnation*

We had the joy of recording with Chad Bird, Daniel Emery Price, and Erick Sorensen of the 1517.org ministry for a special Christmas podcast. Why is the incarnation of Jesus important? How does it bring us hope, joy, and peace? We hope this conversation is uplifting and encouraging.  
  
**Our Guests Podcast:** 
**[40 Minutes in the OT](https://www.1517.org/podcasts/40-minutes-in-the-old-testament)** 
**[30 Minutes in the NT](https://www.1517.org/podcasts/30-minutes-in-the-new-testament)**  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-implications-of-the-incarnation-transcript/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfXHaRqk7Yg

---

### Christ Is Enough...Now What?

*Published: December 16, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/christ-is-enough-now-what*
*Tags: Obedience, Sanctification, Spiritual Growth, The Church*

Many listeners are tracking with us that Christ is enough--that he has completely saved us. Many have come to see that pietism is unhelpful. But, now, you're wondering: What do I do now? If that's you, this podcast is for you.  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin have a spirited conversation about how the church has lost its focus and mission--and how that makes it difficult for people to find legitimate communion in Christ around the means of grace.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/christ-is-enough-now-what-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-christ-is-enough-now-what/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8N3XestE94

---

### Are Spiritual Disciplines Biblical?

*Published: December 9, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical*
*Tags: Spiritual Disciplines*

Spiritual disciplines are a big deal in our modern church context. Where did they come from? Are they biblical? How is it that we are sustained and grown in the Christian life? Jon and Justin consider all these things.  
  
Members' Podcast: The guys have a lively conversation about how spiritual disciplines are highly individualized--and how the corporate realities of life in the church are what matter.  
  
**Recommended Resources:**  
["Reformed Spirituality" by Jon Moffitt](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/reformedspirituality/)  
Articles: "[The Biblical and Historical Problems with Spiritual Disciplines" By Jon Moffitt](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-biblical-and-historical-problems-with-spiritual-disciplines-part-1-notes/)  
[Dazed and Confused: Hebrews 12:1-14 and Holiness](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/dazed-and-confused-hebrews-121-14-and-holiness/)  
["Faith vs Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest"](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/primer/)  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9np3mUJOxQ

---

### The Cravings of the Flesh

*Published: December 2, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-cravings-of-the-flesh*
*Tags: homosexuality, saint and sinner, Sin, struggle with the flesh*

Sin is far worse than we often think. The Bible teaches that we are all born with lusts, cravings, passions, and desires that are wrong. Jon and Justin talk about this robust understanding of sin and its implications.  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin discuss accountability and how it is often approached in the church.  
  
**RECOMMENDED RESOURCES:**
* [Episode: Law/Gospel Distinction](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction/)
* [Law Gospel Distinction with Rod Rosenbladt](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction-with-rod-rosenbladt/)
* [Triumphalism](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/137-triumphalism/)
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-cravings-of-the-flesh-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-cravings-of-the-flesh-members/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVDUNhmd\_M8

---

### The Difference Between Sin and Struggle

*Published: November 25, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-difference-between-sin-and-struggle*
*Tags: saint and sinner, simul justus et peccator, Sin, Struggle with sin, two kingdom theology*

There is a difference between unrepentant sin and struggling as a fallen person in a fallen world. How should we understand our own struggle and the struggle of other believers? And what does this mean for life together in the church?  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about preaching that leads to more despair and discouragement, rather than helping us in it.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-difference-between-sin-and-struggle-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-difference-between-sin-and-struggle/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECcMFUFN4-8

---

### Agree to Disagree

*Published: November 18, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/agree-to-disagree*
*Tags: denominations, Doctrine, how to disagree, Level of Doctrines, Primary Doctrines*

Jon and Jimmy discuss where should we draw lines of theological disagreements. How should Christians disagree over important doctrines? How has the church lost its mission in these theological debates?  
  
Members' Podcast: What about politics? Should Christians be debating what candidate or political party one should vote for?  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/agree-to-disagree-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-agree-to-disagree/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsUQaBm2D4M

---

### The Covenant of Grace in the Old Testament

*Published: November 11, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-covenant-of-grace-in-the-old-testament*
*Tags: 1689, 1689 federalism, Covenant of Grace, Covenant Theology*

This is part 4 from our Introduction to Covenant Theology. In this class, this is our first of two sessions discussing the Covenant of Grace. In this session, we talk about the nature of the Covenant of Grace. Then we turn our focus on the promises and progressive revelation of the Covenant of Grace and trace them through the Old Testament, from Genesis to Malachi.  
  
Course Overview:  
  
_Part 1: Introduction & Overview_ 
_Part 2: The Covenant of Redemption_ 
_Part 3: The Covenant of Works_ 
_Part 4: The Covenant of Grace in the Old Testament_ 
_Part 5: The Covenant of Grace in the New Testament_  
  
[**FOR A DONATION OF ANY AMOUNT**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/product/academy-introduction-to-covenant-theology/)  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-covenant-of-grace-in-the-old-testament-transcript/)**  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5\_4VjAJylY

---

### Fantasy Christianity

*Published: November 4, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/fantasy-christianity*
*Tags: pain, Pietism, Reformed Theology, Rest in Christ, suffering, Triumphalism*

If you listen to many in the church, our Christian lives should be characterized by happiness, excitement, and by overcoming difficulty. But, this life is often characterized by pain, toil, and suffering. What do we do with that? And what is it that we're called to in the church?  
  
Members' Podcast Description: Jon and Justin talk about the mission of the church and what it looks like to keep the main things the main things.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/fantasy-christianity-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-fantasy-christianity/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZKWgHb5pB8

---

### HOT TOPIC: Is There Only One Way a Christians Can Vote?

*Published: October 30, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/hot-topic-is-there-only-one-way-a-christians-can-vote*
*Tags: Politics, Politics and the church, Voting*

These are tumultuous times in the United States. Politics are dominating much of the public conversation. And evangelical leaders have made strong statements as to how Christians should--or must--vote. Jon and Justin discuss these things and provide a historical biblical perspective.  
  
[**Read Related Article by Justin Perdue**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-there-only-one-way-a-christian-can-vote/)  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/hot-topic-is-there-only-one-way-a-christians-can-vote-transcript/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV3dzoK7hC8

---

### Left Behind: Have We Moved On from the Gospel?

*Published: October 28, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/left-behind-have-we-moved-on-from-the-gospel*
*Tags: Gospel, moving past the gospel, Pietism*

Though we would never say it this way, it often seems that the gospel is just the starting point of the Christian life--and that once we believe, we need to move on to other things. Jon and Justin consider how this happens and what it means for people in the church.  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about the "taste and see" reality of a church where the gospel permeates everything in the life of the congregation.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/left-behind-have-we-moved-on-from-the-gospel-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-left-behind-have-we-moved-on-from-the-gospel/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deHSvd-nJhE

---

### Introduction To Covenant Theology Part One

*Published: October 21, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/introduction-to-covenant-theology-part-one*
*Tags: 1689 federalism, baptist covenant theology, Covenant Theology, reformed covenant theology, Reformed Theology*

In this course, we are going to explore Covenant Theology. We will show you how Covenant Theology provides a framework for rightly reading and understanding your Bible that arises from scripture itself. We’ll dive deeply into the three covenants that comprise this framework: the Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Works, and the Covenant of Grace. In the end, we will rejoice over the firm ground Covenant Theology provides for our assurance and rest in Christ.  
  
_Part 1: Introduction & Overview_ 
_Part 2: The Covenant of Redemption_ 
_Part 3: The Covenant of Works_ 
_Part 4: The Covenant of Grace in the Old Testament_ 
_Part 5: The Covenant of Grace in the New Testament_  
  
**_Instructor: Jon Moffitt, Justin Perdue, and Jimmy Buehler_**  
  
[**FOR A DONATION OF ANY AMOUNT**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/product/academy-introduction-to-covenant-theology/)  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/introduction-to-covenant-theology-part-one-transcript/)**  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1zYCPUTobU

---

### Did It Matter How Jesus Died?

*Published: October 14, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/did-it-matter-how-jesus-died*
*Tags: Atonement, Biblical Theology, Covenant Theology, purpose of the bible, Redemptive Historical*

Why is it that Jesus died on a cross--and not some other way? Does it matter? (Hint: It does.) Jon and Justin answer this question using all of Scripture from a redemptive-historical, covenantal perspective.  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin consider why we would interpret the Bible in any other way than a redemptive-historical fashion with Jesus at the center.  
  
**Recommended Resources:**
* [Biblical Theology (Geerhardus Vos)](http://amzn.to/2viExKq)
* [Far As The Curse Is Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption (Michael Williams)](http://amzn.to/2uWmXec)
* [The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom (Samuel Renihan)](https://press.founders.org/shop/the-mystery-of-christ-his-covenant-and-his-kingdom/)
* [Introduction To Covenant Theology (Theocast)](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/intro-to-covenant-theology/)
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/did-it-matter-how-jesus-died-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-is-your-theological-system-any-good/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TChRmEYDr0

---

### Is Your Theological System Any Good?

*Published: October 7, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-your-theological-system-any-good*
*Tags: bible study, Biblical Theology, Covenant Theology, Redemptive Historical, reformed confessions, theological system*

Some people say we should read the Bible with no presuppositions-and that it isn't good to have a theological system. Is that possible? Is that right? Jon and Justin consider these things and how we should do biblical theology.  
  
Members' Podcast: The guys discuss whether all of Scripture is Christian Scripture, dispensationalism, and how interpretative models affect assurance.  
  
**Recommended Resources:**
* [Biblical Theology (Geerhardus Vos)](http://amzn.to/2viExKq)
* [Far As The Curse Is Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption (Michael Williams)](http://amzn.to/2uWmXec)
* [The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom (Samuel Renihan)](https://press.founders.org/shop/the-mystery-of-christ-his-covenant-and-his-kingdom/)
* [Introduction To Covenant Theology (Theocast)](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/intro-to-covenant-theology/)
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-your-theological-system-any-good-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-is-your-theological-system-any-good/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-VfGoKS0nw

---

### The "Five Points" of Reformed Theology

*Published: September 30, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-five-points-of-reformed-theology*
*Tags: Calvinism, Confessionalism, Covenant Theology, reformed, Reformed Theology, what is reformed theology*

Jon and Justin answer a question that we get all the time: "When you say 'reformed' theology, what do you mean?" We offer our own "five points" on the subject.  
  
Members' Podcast: The guys continue the conversation around the major tenets of reformed theology.  
  
**Recommended Resources:**  
[Introduction to Covenant Theology](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/intro-to-covenant-theology/)  
[Introduction to Calvinism](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/product/introduction-to-calvinism/)  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-five-points-of-reformed-theology-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-five-points-of-reformed-theology/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8t2ijO06kY

---

### Our Weakness, Sex, and the Gospel

*Published: September 23, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel*
*Tags: biblicalsexuality, Gospel, human weakness, marriage, purity culture, saint and sinner, Sex*

Jon and Justin have a conversation about our weakness, sex, and the gospel. (Parents: There is nothing graphic, but please be aware.) Our culture tells us all kinds of things about sex. The church hasn't always helped. What has God said in his Word?  
  
Members' Podcast: Justin and Jon consider Proverbs 6:33 and whether our disgrace from sexual sin can ever be taken away? Also, the guys talk about how the church has often confused its mission when it comes to sex and the culture.  
  
Recommended Resources:  
\- Justin Perdue's Sermon: [Our Weakness, Sex, and the Gospel](https://covbap.org/sermons/our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel-part-2/)  
\- [Tim Killer's Book: The Meaning of Marriage](https://amzn.to/362iJVu)  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTmMYp-dsdw

---

### How Not to Read Your Bible

*Published: September 16, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-not-to-read-your-bible*
*Tags: bible, Bible Reading, Church, devotions, Means of Grace, Pietism, quiet times*

Are you discouraged about reading your Bible? Maybe you feel like you don't understand it? Maybe you read it and feel like you've gotten nothing from it? In this episode, the guys talk about how not to read your Bible--and then consider what Scripture says about how to interact with it.  
  
Members' Podcast: The guys consider whether personal Bible reading is a litmus test of being a good and faithful Christian.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-not-to-read-your-bible-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-how-not-to-read-your-bible/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOkIvpFS0e0

---

### The Slow Death of Pietism

*Published: September 9, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-slow-death-of-pietism*
*Tags: Assurance, Bible Reading, Legalism, Pietism, piety, reformed piety, Reformed Theology, Rest, Sanctification, Spiritual Disciplines*

On today's episode, we are able and blessed to sit around the same table to discuss and meet with our old friend pietism. The other night, we were discussing how pietism dies a very slow and painful death. We also talked about the damage it can cause to our assurance and what we see when we look at ourselves in Christ. In this podcast, we discuss the slow and painful death of pietism and how it can harm us.  
  
Members Podcast: We get a little bit more punchy as we talk about the dangers of pietism as it relates to the gathered saints in the local church and the damage that it can cause. We hope this conversation is beneficial to you as it was to us. We look forward to you listening.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-the-slow-death-of-pietism-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-slow-death-of-pietism/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaJYbVRnfTg

---

### What the World Needs Now

*Published: September 2, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-the-world-needs-now*
*Tags: biblical forgiveness, Forgiveness, Gospel, grace, Rest, salvation, the cross*

Life is hard. Relationships are hard. In light of that, what is it that we need most? There are countless solutions offered. Jon and Justin consider what Scripture has to say.  
  
Members Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about the most difficult kind of people to live with, as well the struggle we have to accept people's repentance.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-the-world-needs-now-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-what-the-world-needs-now/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeD69Rwhuvc

---

### Does Your Job Matter to God???

*Published: August 26, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/does-your-job-matter-to-god*
*Tags: job, Vocation, work. christianjobs*

In this episode, Jon and Jimmy discuss the topic of Vocation. Does the Bible lead us to believe that some jobs are more spiritual than others? Is the pastor's job more important than the stay-home-mom? We also explain how God is accomplishing His mission through the ordinary every day lives of those in the church.  
  
Members Podcast: Jon drops a bomb and opens the topic of transforming culture and American Christianity. Is it the mission of the church to fight back against bad governments? What role should Christian play in politics, or even pursuing being a politician?  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/does-your-job-matter-to-god-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-does-your-job-matter-to-god/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOj\_BY2vO1w

---

### Fearing the Judgment Seat

*Published: August 12, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/fearing-the-judgment-seat*
*Tags: Heaven, rewards, rewards in heaven, the judgment seat of Christ*

In this episode, Jon and Justin answer a listener question. Should we be afraid of the judgment seat of Christ? Should we fear that all of our good works will be burned up? We survey the passages in the New Testament that speak to these things.  
  
Members Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about the responsibility of leaders in light of Hebrews 13 and James 3\. And, we discuss turning our fear into good motivation for the advancement of the gospel.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/fearing-the-judgment-seat-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-fearing-the-judgment-seat-2/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMYBhjkbFyQ

---

### You're a Bad Christian If...

*Published: August 5, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/youre-a-bad-christian-if*
*Tags: blacklivesmatter, covid19, Gospel, Legalism, metoo, Pietism, Racism, Reformed Theology, self righteousness*

In this episode, the guys talk about all of the requirements being placed upon Christians as a result of the current cultural issues. It seems we are failing all over the place, and forgiveness and absolution are nowhere to be found. What do we make of these things?  
  
Members Podcast: The guys continue the conversation on the burdens of our current cultural moment. We take a look back at the #metoo movement and consider the primacy of the gospel in the life of the church  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/youre-a-bad-christian-if-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-youre-a-bad-christian-if/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw7S2mBf\_O0

---

### Why All Calvinists Are Not Reformed

*Published: July 22, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/why-all-calvinists-are-not-reformed*
*Tags: Calvinism, Calvinism vs Reformed, Calvinist, reformed, Reformed Theology, Why Not Call Calvinist are Reformed*

In this episode, the guys talk about the difference between Calvinism and reformed theology. The two are not one and the same. We explain the major tenets of reformed theology and why they are important.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys talk personally about our transition into confessional, reformed theology--and the difference it has made in our lives and churches.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/why-all-calvinists-are-not-reformed-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-why-all-calvinists-are-not-reformed/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzjs6FuIBnM

---

### Should I Stay Or Should I Go?

*Published: July 8, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go*
*Tags: Church, leaving a church, Legalism, Pietism, Reformed Theology*

When should you leave a church? Jon and Jimmy discuss this question from a pastoral and congregant perspective. We discuss unhelpful ways we have seen this done, what you should not say, and the timing one should consider.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys layout the primary and secondary issues one should consider first before they leave or stay in their current context. Is something like sanctification a reason to leave?  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP5yfxIgmEs

---

### Drowning in Evangelicalism?

*Published: July 1, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/drowning-in-evangelicalism*
*Tags: Church Growth Movement, Confessional theology, Evangelicalism, Legalism, Pietism, Reformed Theology*

In this episode, the guys talk about evangelicalism. Where did it come from? What produced it? What kind of effect has evangelical culture had on Christians? If you feel as though you're drowning--if you are struggling and disenchanted--you are not crazy. And you are not alone.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys continue the conversation on evangelicalism by considering how confessional theology is the antidote to so much of what ails the contemporary church.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/drowning-in-evangelicalism-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-drowning-in-evangelicalism/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVxDqrISdD0

---

### Dazed and Confused: Does 2 Peter 1:1-12 Teach Pietism?

*Published: June 24, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/dazed-and-confused-does-2-peter-1-1-12-teach-pietism*
*Tags: 2 Peter 1:1-12, Legalism, Pietism, Sanctification*

In this episode, the guys talk about a passage of Scripture that is often misunderstood: 2 Peter 1:1-12\. Is Peter teaching pietism in this text? We consider the gospel, as well as the saint/sinner reality, and how those things relate to our pursuit of piety.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys continue the conversation on 2 Peter 1 by going through the rest of the chapter. We give thoughts on preaching the passage and on pastoral posture, in general.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/dazed-and-confused-does-2-peter-11-12-teach-pietism-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-dazed-and-confused-does-2-peter-11-12-teach-pietism/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQR1eWF900w

---

### Back to Rome?

*Published: June 17, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/back-to-rome*
*Tags: Catholicism, Catholics, Reformation theology, Reformed Theology, Roman Catholicism, Roman Catholics*

In this episode, Jon and Justin begin by answering a listener's question as to whether Roman Catholics can be saved. We then contrast Roman Catholic and Reformed theology and go on to consider the ways many evangelicals sound Roman in their teaching and practice.  
  
Members Podcast: Jon and Justin talk pastorally and personally about the fallout of evangelical confusion over justification and sanctification.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/back-to-rome-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-back-to-rome/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxcOG9GrvGA

---

### Racism, Injustice, and the Church

*Published: June 10, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/racism-injustice-and-the-church*
*Tags: Church, Racism, Social Justice*

In the aftermath of the murder of George Floyd and the protests of recent days, the guys talk about racism, injustice, and the church. There are many people in a lot of pain. What can we say to these things from God's Word? How can the church navigate these difficult issues?  
  
Members Podcast: The guys talk personally with our listeners, some of whom have sent in emails. And, we seek to encourage one another with the hope of the new heaven and the new earth, which Christ has secured for us.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/racism-injustice-and-the-church-transcript/)**  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-racism-injustice-and-the-church/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNmUnCehVIQ

---

### Biblical Counseling: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

*Published: June 3, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/biblical-counseling-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly*
*Tags: Biblical Counseling Nouthetic Counseling, Christian Counseling, Counseling, Counseling and the Church*

In this episode, the guys talk about biblical counseling and the problem of pietism and hyper-introspection. We consider a confessional, Christ-centered approach to counseling that is grounded in the local church.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys discuss the value of counseling centers and how they can partner well with local churches to care for struggling saints. We also talk about the fallout of an obsession with sanctification.  
  
Restoration Counseling Center of Asheville (that Justin mentioned): https://restorationashevillenc.com  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/biblical-counseling-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-transcript/)**   
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-biblical-counseling-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hCbyLk3IGw

---

### Triumphalism

*Published: May 27, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/triumphalism*
*Tags: overcoming sin, Sanctification, Triumphalism, victorious Christian life*

In this episode, the guys talk about triumphalism. The impression we're often given in the church is that we should be always and consistently improving. We should be living "the victorious Christian life." And, if we're not, we should be concerned. What do we make of all this?  
  
Members Podcast: The guys continue the conversation on triumphalism and by considering the exhortation of Paul to walk by the Spirit so that we don't gratify the desires of the flesh.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/triumphalism-transcript/)**   
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-triumphalism/)  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV31d0DGL\_k

---

### Depression

*Published: May 20, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/depression*
*Tags: Anxiety, Depression, Gospel*

In this episode, the guys talk about depression. It is a common battle. And it is understandable in a fallen world. We consider what depression is, where it comes from, and how we should recalibrate our thinking and conversation in the church.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys talk about how to counsel people who are battling depression. We discuss mercy, compassion, the roles of Scripture, and the church, as well as practical helps.  
  
**Scripture:**  
Job 7:13-16; Psalm 34:18; Psalm 56:8; Psalm 77:1-3; Psalm 88; Ecclesiastes 2:17-23; Isaiah 57:15; Mark 14:34; 2 Corinthians 1:8-9; Hebrews 4:15-16  
  
**Resources:**
* 1689 London Baptist Confession, Chapter 6, Paragraphs 2-3
* ["Spurgeon's Sorrows" by Zack Eswine](https://amzn.to/2TkT2Z5)
* ["Finding Hope in Depression" (article by Jimmy Buehler)](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/finding-hope-in-depression/)
* ["Dealing with Darkness" (sermon series by Justin Perdue)](https://covbap.org/hello-world/)
**[Read Episode Transcripts](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/depression-transcript/)**   
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-depression/)  
  
https://youtu.be/BG3toL\_tGf8

---

### Law/Gospel Distinction

*Published: May 13, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/law-gospel-distinction*
*Tags: Law &amp; Gospel, Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction, reformed law gospel, Reformed Theology*

In this episode, the guys consider the distinction between the law and the gospel. God has revealed the law and the gospel in Scripture. They aren't the same thing, but yet, they are often confused. This confusion results in all kinds of fallout, including robbing the believer of assurance and peace.  
  
MEMBERS Podcast: The guys talk about how maintaining an appropriate distinction between law and gospel leads to assurance and rest in Christ.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-law-gospel-distinction/)  
  
https://youtu.be/EMSfwPUuuVk

---

### Christ-Centered Preaching

*Published: May 6, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/christ-centered-preaching*
*Tags: Christ Centered Preaching, Christ-Centered, Expository Preaching, preaching, reformed preaching, Reformed Theology*

"Christ-centered preaching" has been a popular topic for a number of years. But what is it? What does it mean to preach Christ from all of Scripture? If we preach this way, are we just saying the same thing every Sunday? The guys consider all of this--and more--in today's episode.  
  
Members Podcast: In this episode, we talk about angry preaching. We consider where it comes from, why it's common, and why it's bad.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/christ-centered-preaching-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-christ-centered-preaching/)  
  
https://youtu.be/JJY9u59fnDY

---

### Assurance

*Published: April 29, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/assurance*
*Tags: Assurance, assurance of salvation, Gospel, how do I know I'm saved, Pietism, Reformed Theology, salvation*

So many of the questions we get at Theocast come down to the issue of assurance. How do we know we will be finally saved? How is it that we have peace before God- now and in the future? We talk personally of our own experiences, make some observations about evangelicalism, and then point people to Christ and his sufficiency.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys continue the conversation on assurance by considering good works, the ongoing struggle with sin, and the work of Christ.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/assurance-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-assurance/)  
  
https://youtu.be/nag9HtkCjHI

---

### Q&A: Confessional Theology, Justification & Sanctification, and Church Discipline

*Published: April 22, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/q-a-confessional-theology-justification-sanctification-and-church-discipline*
*Tags: Church Discipline, confessional, Confessional theology, Confessions, covid19, Justification, Justification and sanctification, Sanctification*

In light of COVID-19, the hosts thought it would be a good thing to do a live online Q&A. Amongst other things, we talk about confessional theology, justification and sanctification, and church discipline.  
  
Members Podcast: We continue answering questions from the online live Q&A. Topics include how to preach obedience and the damage caused by fear-based preaching.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/qa-church-discipline-fruit-andmore-transcripts/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-qa-church-discipline-fruit-andmore/)  
  
https://youtu.be/gF9OpMZf0H0

---

### Legal Preaching

*Published: April 15, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/legal-preaching*
*Tags: legal preaching, Legalism, legalistic preaching, Pietism, pietistic preaching, preaching, reformed, reformed preaching*

In this episode, Jon and Justin discuss legal preaching. This kind of preaching tends to remove hope and establish fear. It tends to turn every passage of Scripture into law. It tends to focus on how people are not measuring up. We point out the prevalence of legal preaching and offer some correctives.  
  
Members' Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about their own journeys away from legal preaching and also consider the purpose of the pulpit.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/legal-preaching-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-legal-preaching/)  
  
https://youtu.be/cBWx-e1NY5g

---

### Preaching [About] the Gospel

*Published: April 8, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/preaching-about-the-gospel*
*Tags: Gospel, law preaching, legal preaching, Legalism, Pietism, preaching*

In this episode, Jon and Justin discuss preaching the gospel. It's been our observation that guys will get fired up about preaching the gospel, they will give the facts of the gospel, and talk a lot about the gospel--without ever offering Jesus to sinners and heralding the grace of God in Christ.  
  
In the Members podcast, we cover preaching about sin and obedience in light of the gospel. We also discuss Christ-centered preaching--what it is and what it isn't.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/preaching-about-the-gospel-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-preaching-about-the-gospel/)  
  
https://youtu.be/vwz66dHrlqo

---

### Joy in Suffering: A Conversation in Light of COVID-19

*Published: April 1, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/joy-in-suffering-a-conversation-in-light-of-covid-19*
*Tags: coronavirus, covid19, James 1, joy, joy in suffering, Romans 5, trials*

We are all being tremendously affected by the COVID-19 pandemic. In light of this, the guys have a conversation about trials, suffering, and the steadfast love of God.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys continue the conversation about suffering and the Christian life. We blow up some unhelpful things we've seen being posted on social media and elsewhere.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/joy-in-suffering-covid19-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/joy-in-suffering-covid19-members/)  
  
https://youtu.be/XHFI8vMvf0M

---

### Proverbs: Where Is Jesus?

*Published: March 25, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/proverbs-where-is-jesus*
*Tags: Legalism, Old Testament, Pietism, Proverbs, Proverbs 31 Woman, Redemptive Historical*

In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about Proverbs. It's one of the most-read books in the Bible, but honestly, many of us don't know what to do with it. Is Jesus in Proverbs? How do we understand and apply the book?  
  
Members Podcast: Jon and Justin discuss how Proverbs is selectively applied and misapplied. We also get into The Song of Solomon.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/proverbs-where-is-jesus-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/proverbs-where-is-jesus-members/)  
  
https://youtu.be/up6U8uKzVg8

---

### How Much Can a Christian Sin?

*Published: March 18, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/how-much-can-a-christian-sin*
*Tags: Church Discipline, preaching, Sin*

In this episode, Jon and Justin tackle the question, "How much--and for how long--can a Christian sin?" Scripture and the Confessions indicate that Christians can sin really badly for a really long time.  
  
Members Podcast: Jon and Justin talk about implications for preaching in light of our struggle against sin. We also consider church discipline as a tool given to us by God for the restoration of sinners.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-much-can-a-christian-sin-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-much-can-a-c%E2%80%A6tian-sin-members/)  
  
https://youtu.be/eqRBasKNGb8

---

### More Than a Feeling?

*Published: March 11, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/more-than-a-feeling*
*Tags: Assurance, Feelings, John Piper, Pietism, salvation, T4G*

In this episode, the guys talk about feelings. Yes, that's right. At a prominent evangelical conference, John Piper said that it is futile to try to define saving faith apart from feelings ([link](https://www.facebook.com/TogetherfortheGospel/videos/755188604972277/?v=755188604972277)). We consider whether that is correct and the fallout of that perspective as it relates to assurance.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys continue the conversation on feelings, faith, and assurance. We also discuss Christian Hedonism and where it tends to lead.  
  
[**Read Episode Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/more-than-a-feeling-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/more-than-a-feeling-members/)  
  
https://youtu.be/GhoRmIPjRxA

---

### Comforts from the Cross

*Published: March 4, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/comforts-from-the-cross*
*Tags: Assurance, Cross, Gospel, Theology of the Cross*

Sometimes we think we have understood the gospel and maybe have even gotten to the bottom of it--only to have God blow up our hearts and minds with the wonder of the gospel anew. In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about the comfort of the work of Christ.  
  
Members Podcast: Jon and Justin continue the conversation about the work of Christ. We turn to consider its implications for love and unity in the church. We also talk about the craziness of self-righteousness.  
  
**[Read Episode Transcript](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/comforts-from-the-cross-transcript/)**  
**[Members Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/comforts-from-the-cross-members/)**  
  
https://youtu.be/6XJz6Hr9MMw

---

### Is Ambition Sin?

*Published: February 26, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/is-ambition-sin*
*Tags: Ambition, Is Ambition Sin, Love of Self, self love, Sin*

In this episode, the guys talk about ambition. Biblically, ambition is sin and is opposed to the gospel. We consider how we are to live before God and with one another.  
  
Members Podcast: The guys continue the conversation about ambition. We discuss how ambition is harmful to churches, pastors, and church planters.  
  
**Recommended Resources:**
* [Seculosity: How Career, Parenting, Technology, Food, Politics, and Romance Became Our New Religion and What to Do about It - by David Zahl](https://amzn.to/39clPVi)
* [Ordinary: Sustainable Faith in a Radical, Restless World - by Michael Horton ](https://amzn.to/2wGdBXc)
* [Upside-Down Spirituality - by Bird (Author)](https://amzn.to/383655M)
https://youtu.be/WZqNTB37b4c

---

### "Faith Alone" Is Radical

*Published: February 19, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/faith-alone-is-radical*
*Tags: Faith, Faith Alone, Gospel, Justification, Pietism, Radical, Sanctification, Sola Fide*

In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about sola fide (faith alone). It is a radical message. We seek to briefly clarify the doctrine before moving on to discuss the implications of it and the importance of guarding it.  
  
Members Episode: Jon and Justin continue the conversation on faith alone. In particular, we talk about how the truth of justification by faith alone in Christ alone frees us up to love one another.  
  
https://youtu.be/nWSAtH1egz8

---

### What's Love Got to Do with It?

*Published: February 12, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/whats-love-got-to-do-with-it*
*Tags: Greatest Commandments, John 15, John 17, Love, Pietism*

In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about loving one another. It was a big deal to Jesus and the apostles. But if you were to ask Christians to make a list of priorities in the Christian life, where would love show up on that list?  
  
Members Podcast Description: Jon and Justin continue the conversation on love. We discuss how this relates to the meanness and gracelessness we often see on Christian Twitter and in the church.  
  
https://youtu.be/KSerkiPRR8M

---

### Discipleship Is Not About You

*Published: February 5, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/discipleship-is-not-about-you*
*Tags: Biblical Discipleship, Discipleship, Legalism, Pietism*

In this episode, the guys talk about discipleship. We often hear the word "disciple" used as a verb. Is that how it's used in the New Testament? Is there a distinction between being a Christian and a disciple? We consider these things along with the corporate nature of being a disciple of Jesus.  
  
Members Podcast: In this episode, we talk about the radical sayings of Jesus. And we consider how love, mercy, and compassion are the order of the day in the church.  
  
**Resources:**  
["The Whole Christ" by Sinclair Ferguson](https://amzn.to/36URuJf)  
["For Calvinism" by Michael Horton](https://amzn.to/2RWdejv)  
["By Grace Alone" by Sinclair Ferguson](https://amzn.to/31BJv2N)  
["Ordinary" by Michael Horton](https://amzn.to/2ShMlWm)  
  
https://youtu.be/XYomTmGOr\_s

---

### Mission Critical

*Published: January 29, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/mission-critical*
*Tags: Evangelism, John 17, Mission of the Christian, Mission of the church*

Jesus prays for our protection and our mission in John 17\. What kind of protection does he pray for? And what kind of mission has he left for us? In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about our mission and Christ's desires for us as his church.  
  
Members Podcast: Jon and Justin continue the discussion on the mission of the church. Can you struggle with sin and be useful in the mission? How can individual members of the church participate in the mission?  
  
https://youtu.be/hj4mZtjsIdw

---

### The "Little laws" of New Year's

*Published: January 22, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-little-laws-of-new-years*
*Tags: Jonathan Edwards, Legalism, New Year's Resolutions, Pietism, Resolutions*

In this episode, we talk about all the little "l" laws we place ourselves under in the New Year's season. There are a 1,000 things we need to be doing--or not doing. We often fail to meet our own expectations. What do we do with all this?  
  
Members Podcast Description: We talk about how a reformed two kingdoms perspective comes to bear on New Year's resolutions. We also consider how making proper distinctions between Bible and common sense is important and helpful.  
  
https://youtu.be/s4V3lfZtI9A

---

### Simple Christianity

*Published: January 18, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/simple-christianity*
*Tags: Christianity, Gospel, Legalism, Pietism, Simple Christianity*

In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about some of the ways contemporary Christianity has made everything complicated. We also talk about the freeing simplicity of the biblical faith that is founded on Christ crucified for sinners.  
  
Members Podcast Description: Jon and Justin continue to conversation on a simpler kind of Christianity. We touch on several things, including overly full church schedules and canceling services.  
  
https://youtu.be/S-zF2FZeBM4

---

### Interview with Daniel Emery Price: Creeds? What's That?

*Published: January 8, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/interview-with-daniel-emery-price-creeds-whats-that*
*Tags: Creeds, Creeds and confessions, Daniel Emery Price, Reformed Theology*

In this episode, we interview our friend, Daniel Emery Price about creedal Christianity. If you were to ask many in the church what Christians believe, you would get a number of different answers. Many of those wouldn't be good. We discuss what creedal Christianity is and the fallout of abandoning the creedal faith.  
  
Members Podcast Description: We continue our conversation with Daniel Emery Price about creedal Christianity. We dive deeper into how the creedal faith makes people nervous, as well as ways many in the church today actually contradict the creeds.  
  
**Resources:** 

[Scandalous Stories: A Sort of Commentary on Parables by Daniel Emery Price (Author), Erick Sorensen (Author), Chad Bird (Foreword)](https://amzn.to/2tFQHxC)

https://youtu.be/XB3JAte0Xv8

---

### Q&A: Saint & Sinner, Antinomianism, Bearing Fruit and More...

*Published: December 18, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/q-a-saint-sinner-antinomianism-bearing-fruit-and-more*
*Tags: Antinomian, Antinomianism, Bearing Fruit, Live Q&amp;A, saint and sinner, Sanctification, simul justus et peccator*

Our third live event, from Berean Fellowship in Palmdale, CA. Jon and Justin talk about the Christian's simultaneous saint and sinner reality, antinomianism, and about how much fruit we need to be bearing in the Christian life.

Members Podcast: More from our live event in Palmdale, CA. We consider bearing fruit in the Christian life and the question of how long a Christian can struggle with sin before they should start questioning their salvation.  
  
https://youtu.be/5W6cZjnvdvE

---

### Live Q&A on Final Justification & Mark Jones

*Published: December 11, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/live-q-a-on-final-justification-mark-jones*
*Tags: Assurance, Faith Alone, Final Justification, Good Works, John Piper, Mark Jones, Obedience, Pietism, salvation, Sanctification, Sola Fide*

In our second ever live event, Jon and Justin talk primarily about sola fide--some of the old and new confusion around it. How do good works factor into our final salvation? We begin to discuss an article written recently by Mark Jones in which he argues that we have the right to eternal life by faith alone but we will finally possess eternal life through good works.  
  
**Members Podcast**: Jon and Justin continue the discussion around Mark Jones' article. We also take listener questions about the Marrow Controversy, Roman Catholicism, and when/how you would know someone is a false convert.  
  
**Resources:**  
["Do We Have a Translator Available? Good Works and 'The Way to Salvation'" by Mark Jones](https://calvinistinternational.com/2019/10/15/do-we-have-a-translator-available-good-works-and-the-way-to-salvation/)  
  
https://youtu.be/mE\_WbhH3UKw

---

### Interview with Chad Bird

*Published: December 4, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/interview-with-chad-bird*
*Tags: Chad Bird, Forgiveness, law gospel distinction, Prodigal Son, Repentance*

In this episode we interview our friend, Chad Bird. We discuss his book, "Night Driving." We cover a number of topics, including the pain we experience in this life, repentance, forgiveness, the struggle against sin, and the love of God for sinners.  
  
**Member Podcast Description**: We talk with Chad about the fact that many of us are almost afraid of forgiveness--and our tendency to put all kinds of qualifiers and conditions on it. We also get into Romans 7 and even Kanye West.  
  
**Resources:**

* [Night Driving: Notes from a Prodigal Soul](https://amzn.to/34J5WDN)
* [Upside-Down Spirituality](https://amzn.to/360SkEd)
* [Your God Is Too Glorious: Finding God in the Most Unexpected Places](https://amzn.to/35Y6RjX)

https://youtu.be/fR3J9A4-KuA

---

### Live Q&A: Motivation for Obedience, Assurance, & the Holy Spirit

*Published: November 27, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/live-q-a-motivation-for-obedience-assurance-the-holy-spirit*
*Tags: Assurance, Holy Spirit, Live Q&amp;A, Obedience, Q&amp;A*

In our first-ever live Theocast event in San Diego, CA, we answer listener questions as well as those submitted by the audience. Topics include assurance of salvation, motivations for obedience, our need for the church, and more.  
  
Members Podcast Description: We cover questions concerning rewards in heaven, are all Jews saved, and how do we rest daily in Christ.  
  
https://youtu.be/mZopss7tIOo

---

### Law Gospel Distinction with Rod Rosenbladt

*Published: November 6, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/law-gospel-distinction-with-rod-rosenbladt*
*Tags: 1517.org, Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction, Rod Rosenblandt, Theology of Glory, Theology of the Cross*

We sat down with Rod Rosenbladt to discuss a few things--including law/gospel distinction, the sufficiency of Christ's work, and theology of the cross. We also get his thoughts on future justification.  
  
Special Members Podcast: In the first Hot Topics episode--for our members--we discuss the recent apostasy of Joshua Harris, along with the failures of Tullian Tchividjian, Mark Driscoll, and James MacDonald. How should we think about these things? And, can a man return to ministry after a failure?  
  
**Resources:**

[The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel - C.F.W. Walther](https://amzn.to/2NlMIhe)

https://youtu.be/BEJUlz0T2HQ

---

### Dazed and Confused: Hebrews 12:1-14 and Holiness

*Published: October 30, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/dazed-and-confused-hebrews-12-1-14-and-holiness*
*Tags: Antinomianism, Final Justification, Hebrews, Hebrews 12:14, Holiness, John Piper, Justification, Kevin DeYoung, Mark Jones, Two Step Justification*

In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about a verse of Scripture that has produced much angst and confusion: Hebrews 12:14\. In that verse, we read that there is a holiness without which no one will see the Lord. How should we understand this passage?  
  
Members Podcast Description: Jon and Justin talk about the certainty of sanctification and whether it is monergistic or synergistic. They also consider the relationship of justification, sanctification, and final salvation.  
  
**Sources:**  
"The Hole in Our Holiness" by Kevin DeYoung (p. 29 cited)  
"Antinomianism: Reformed Theology's Unwelcome Guest?" by Mark Jones (p. 64 cited)  
John Piper’s Foreword to "Faith Alone" by Tom Schreiner  
WCF Chapter 16 - Of Good Works  
Council of Trent (Session VI, Canon XXIV on Justification)  
  
**Scripture:**  
Hebrews 1-12  
Romans 5:1-5; 8:28-30  
Philippians 1:6; 2:12-13  
  
https://youtu.be/QvdOXbBlnv4

---

### What If I Don't Feel Saved?

*Published: October 23, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-if-i-dont-feel-saved*
*Tags: Assurance, Gospel, salvation, soteriology*

In this episode, Jon and Justin answer the question, "What do I do if I don't feel saved?" This is a struggle for so many of us. God tells us in his Word that we're his children, but we often feel like his enemy. What do we do with that?  
  
Member Podcast Description: Jon and Justin consider how Calvinistic evangelicalism hasn't helped with assurance but, rather, has doubled down on pietism.  
  
**Resources:**  
1689 London Baptist Confession, 18.2  
Heidelberg Catechism, Question 60  
["Faith vs Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest"](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/primer)  
["The Whole Christ" by Sinclair Ferguson](https://www.amazon.com/Whole-Christ-Antinomianism-Assurance-Why-Controversy-ebook/dp/B01AIM65CQ/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1503625151&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Whole+Christ+%28Sinclair+Ferguson%29&linkCode=sl1&tag=theocast-20&linkId=4ac2c33b1a0f3996d7e79e8b738f7fa3)  
  
**Scripture:**  
Hebrews 7:25, 12:1-2  
Romans 5:6-10; 7:15-25; 8:1, 31-39  
John 10, 14, 15  
  
https://youtu.be/83g5-DhK5ks

---

### Limited Atonement (Calvinism Series)

*Published: October 16, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/limited-atonement-calvinism-series*
*Tags: Calvinism, John 6, John Calvin, Limited Atonement, Romans 8, Theology of the Cross, Tulip*

### In this third episode on the doctrines of grace, we discuss limited atonement. What did Jesus accomplish at the cross? What did he intend to accomplish? Can Jesus fail in anything he intends to do? We speak to some common objections and then consider how a particular view of the atonement leads to assurance.

### Member Podcast Description: In this episode, we talk more about limited/particular atonement and assurance. We also launch into some spirited discussion about biblicism and expositional preaching.

### **Resources:**  
["Reformed Dogmatics" by Herman Bavinck](http://amzn.to/2f8UHQb)  
["The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" by John Owen](https://amzn.to/2BbvnRn)  
["For Calvinism" by Michael Horton](https://amzn.to/2mZmln2)  
["The Five Points of Calvinism: A Study Guide" by Edwin Palmer](https://amzn.to/2pjB0dw)  
["Chosen by God" by R. C. Sproul](https://amzn.to/2nD6haY)  
["The Plan of Salvation" by B. B. Warfield](http://amzn.to/2uZDf4i) 

### **Scripture:**  
Matthew 1:21  
John 6:37-40; 10:11-16; 17:1-9  
Acts 20:28  
Romans 8:30-35  
Ephesians 1:3-14  
Hebrews 10:11-14  
Revelation 5:9

---

### Dazed and Confused: John 15 and Bearing Fruit

*Published: September 25, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/dazed-and-confused-john-15-and-bearing-fruit*
*Tags: Fruit of the Spirit, John 15, Legalism, Pietism, progressive sanctification, Sanctification*

In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about a passage of Scripture that is often misunderstood and misapplied: John 15\. Jesus tells us if we abide in him, we will produce much fruit. What does it mean to abide in Jesus? What does Jesus mean by fruit?  
  
Member Podcast Description: In this episode, Jon and Justin talk about issues related to John 15 and how it so often misapplied in pietistic contexts. We touch on Lordship Salvation, total depravity, and sanctification.  
  
https://youtu.be/RBwgYzUCDF0

---

### Obedience Is Not a Dirty Word

*Published: September 18, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/obedience-is-not-a-dirty-word*
*Tags: Obedience, Pietism, Sanctification*

In this episode, we talk about how obedience is a good thing--but that sadly, many have had the experience of being scolded toward it. We discuss how assurance and peace with God in Christ actually motivates us to pursue obedience.  
  
**Member Podcast**: In this episode, we answer the question, "Can we disappoint God in our disobedience?" We also have a spirited discussion about quiet times and the necessity of the church.  
  
https://youtu.be/vEuUHs16ql4

---

### What is Theocast?

*Published: September 17, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/what-is-theocast*

Want to know what Theocast is all about? Here’s a description of Theocast in the words of its hosts. We walk potential listeners through our purpose, our distinctions, our theological focus, and why you might consider tuning in. We hope you find this episode helpful.  
  
https://youtu.be/ct6sWYGoCqM

---

### Footnoting Grace

*Published: September 11, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/footnoting-grace*
*Tags: grace, Pietism*

Maybe you've noticed that the grace of God in Christ is so often qualified? As soon as the gospel is heralded, immediately comes the "Yeah, but..." In this episode, we talk about the tendency to footnote grace and hedge on sola fide. Where does this come from, and why does it happen?  
  
**Member Podcast Description**: In this episode, we talk about how Lordship Salvation footnotes grace--and the confusion that exists with that kind of thinking. We also touch on the work of the Holy Spirit through the ordinary means in the life of the believer.  
  
**Resources:**  
[The Whole Christ - Sinclair Ferguson](https://amzn.to/2N7gwiT)  
[Marrow of Modern Divinity - Edward Fisher](https://amzn.to/2A3LL5Q)  
  
https://youtu.be/5iTbvHXUnAw

---

### The Dark Side of Christianity

*Published: August 28, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-dark-side-of-christianity*
*Tags: Depravity, Obedience, Pietism, Piety &amp; Pietism, Sin*

In this episode, we discuss the darkness that resides in all of us. Should we be surprised when Christians sin--and sin heinously? What do we mean by total depravity? What do we do when we come face to face with the wickedness of our hearts?

FREE MEMBERS PODCAST: We wanted to give this episode away free for everyone to see what our Members Podcast is like. You can find it at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/memberspodcast or on our podcast feed.

Members Podcast topic: We talk about how it is possible to create a culture in the church where people are not shocked when others sin. We talk personally about the darkness of sin and give examples of what wouldn't surprise us. 

https://youtu.be/28QkPzUxF0E

---

### The Dark Side of Christianity (Part 2)

*Published: August 28, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/the-dark-side-of-christianity-part-2*
*Tags: Depravity, Obedience, Pietism, Piety &amp; Pietism, Sin*

FREE MEMBERS PODCAST: We wanted to give this episode away free for everyone to see what our Members Podcast is like. You can find it at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/memberspodcast or on our podcast feed.  
  
Members Podcast topic: We talk about how it is possible to create a culture in the church where people are not shocked when others sin. We talk personally about the darkness of sin and give examples of what wouldn't surprise us.  
  
https://youtu.be/8gKDcLFCQ9A

---

### Special Interview with NEW Host: Jimmy Buehler

*Published: July 31, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/special-interview-with-new-host-jimmy-buehler*

On this episode, Jon interviews a new team member that will be joining Theocast, Jimmy Buehler. Jimmy is currently the pastor of Christ Community Church, a church plant in Willmar, MN. To learn more about Jimmy please visit: wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/jmmybuehler  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqTqHvPO6PA&t=4s

---

### Special Interview with NEW Theocast Host: Justin Perdue

*Published: July 17, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/special-interview-with-new-theocast-host-justin-perdue*

On this episode, Jon Moffitt interviews a new host that will be joining the Theocast team, Justin Perdue. Justin is the Senior Pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, NC ([covbap.org](http://covbap.org)). To learn more about Justin Perdue, visit: [wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/justinperdue](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/justinperdue)

---

### Spiritual Weariness

*Published: September 5, 2018 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/theocast/spiritual-weariness*
*Tags: Legalism, Pietism, spiritual weariness*

In this episode, we discuss the reality of weariness. It's common. We consider how the church is supposed to be a haven for sinners, but sadly, the church has often only piled it on the weary Christian.

**Member Podcast**: In this episode, we talk to pastors who are seeking to lead their churches in a confessional direction. We also talk to congregants who find themselves in a pietistic context.

**Resources:**  
Ordinary - Michael Horton  
Spurgeon's Sorrows: Realistic Hope for those who suffer from depression - [Zack Eswine](https://www.amazon.com/Zack-Eswine/e/B001JS8HVG/ref=dp%5Fbyline%5Fcont%5Febooks%5F1)  
Pilgrim's Guide to Rest - Theocast  
Faith vs Faithfulness: Primer on Rest - Theocast

https://youtu.be/nnwvkb4BYm4

---

### Feeling guilty for not reading your Bible?

*Published: March 8, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/feeling-guilty-for-not-reading-your-bible*
*Tags: Spiritual Gifts*

Struggle to read your bible? Ever wonder, "Should I feel guilty if I do not want to read my bible?" This question is rooted in the belief that a test of true faith is one's desire to read one's bible daily. Jon helps explain how this is not biblical and why many people struggle with their assurance of salvation. Ask Theocast is hosted by Jon Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed church (gracereformed.org)

https://youtu.be/menV6Z-cH1Y

**Transcription:**

---

### Can I be condemned for not using my gifts?

*Published: February 8, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/can-i-be-condemned-for-not-using-my-gifts*
*Tags: Spiritual Gifts*

Can I be condemned for not using my gifts? Answered by Patrick Crandall  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBOvSRPBojc  
  
**Transcription:**  
  
Hey guys, Patrick here, and today on ask Theocast, I'm going to be answering the question from Dave that came to us about whether or not how we use our gifts affects our condemnation or approval before God. This question came up out of the parable of the talents in Matthew 25, where we read that the master's going on a journey, and before he goes, he entrusts three of his servants with some money to steward while he's gone. When he comes back, the first two servants come to him, and they've done business with that money while he's gone, and they've turned a profit. They've doubled that money and they're commended for it, but when the third servant comes, we find out that he had simply buried his talent and brought it back. He's condemned by the master who calls him wicked and lazy, and then has him cast out into the outer darkness. So, the question is, does this mean that our standing before God is maintained by how well and faithfully we use our gifts?  
  
I think a passage that answers this for us is First Corinthians three. There, Paul, in verse 11, says that there's one foundation that's been laid and that foundation is Jesus Christ, and on that foundation, we can build lots of things. There are some things that we can build on it that are valuable and permanent. Then there's these other things that are temporary and pretty much worthless. Whatever we build on their ultimately gets exposed at the last day, and it is tested by fire. Some of it lasts and passes through that fire and the rest of its burned up. The key thing is the last verse there, verse 15, where Paul says that even if it's all burned up, as long as the foundation is Jesus Christ, that man is still saved.  
  
So, if our standing before God is in any way contingent on our faithfulness with our gifts or anything, our faithful obedience in any way, we're doomed. We will never be faithful enough. The only standard that scripture gives us for faithfulness is perfect faithfulness. We will never use our gifts that well and that perfectly. So if we need to do that to be all right with God, we're damned; but, that is not the case. Our approval before God is one fully, only, and completely by the finished work of Jesus. We cannot add to it, and we cannot diminish its sufficiency by anything that we do, any faithfulness or lack thereof.  
  
That being said, what does the parable actually mean? The key to understanding the parable of the talents is to not get obsessed with the talents and not to get obsessed with the work that the servants did, but to look underneath that, to the motives. We're not given a clear picture of the first two servants' motives, so I think we can apply those from the third servant's motive because he talks about why he buried and hid his talent. He goes to the character of the master and he says, I know you are a hard man, that you reap where you do not sow. His description of the master is of somebody who is harsh and who takes what isn’t his. His perception of the master is one that provokes fear.  
  
Does this sound like our God, who gave up his own Son to redeem us from sin and death? It doesn't. That's the key thing here. The problem for the last servant wasn't specifically what he did with his talents, it's the fact that he didn't know God. He did not know a redeeming God who graciously saves a people for himself. His perception of God was all law, and because of that, he was terrified. He was paralyzed. He couldn't move forward in any productive way, because he was so terrified of doing it the wrong way that he couldn't take any steps forward.  
  
By contrast, you see the other two servants who don't seem to share the same opinion of the master. We aren’t told explicitly how they see it, but they are not afraid to go out and to do business with their talents because I think they understand who the master actually is, that he is gracious. He's a good, gracious God whose riches are not limited, who doesn't have to take what isn’t his, because he owns everything. Because of that, they are free to go and to use the talents, to steward what has been given to them without fear. They live the way that they live because of the way they see the master. They actually know him. The servant who's cast into outer darkness, he's cast into outer darkness, not because of what he did with the talents, but because he didn't actually belong to the master. His view of the master is what kind of gives us the lens into that.  
  
I hope that's helpful. Take care, guys!

---

### Can someone have assurance when they struggle with sexual sin?

*Published: February 1, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/can-someone-have-assurance-when-they-struggle-with-sexual-sin*
*Tags: Assurance, Sexual Sins*

### Can someone have assurance when they struggle with sexual sin? Answered by Jimmy Buehler

### 

**Transcription:**  
  
Hi, this is Jimmy. On today's episode of ask Theocast, I'm going to seek to answer the question, "Can someone have assurance when they struggle with sexual sin?" It's a really good question, and I want to try to handle it with sensitivity and with grace; but, I do want to rephrase the question and then we'll work our way back to the original. I'd like to rephrase the question to ask, "Can a genuine Christian struggle with sexual sin?” I would say to that, well, yes.  
  
Paul says to us in the book of Romans, chapter seven, beginning in verse 15, "For I do not understand my own actions. I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing that I hate." If you're familiar with Romans chapter seven, it's Paul's inner dialogue, you could say, of his own battle with the flesh and his own battle with sin. Let's just be honest. Particularly for guys, although I don't think that this sin is outside of the world of women, but speaking particularly to guys, this is a real struggle. Pornography and images and things that we should not be looking at on the internet are so readily available to us, and it's a thing that a lot of guys just frankly get really entangled in. I know even from personal experience that it can be a really difficult struggle. I also want to be sensitive to say that we need to be careful in how we talk about sin.  
  
A lot of times, we just want to think of sin as something that we do, our outward actions, but time and again, particularly in Romans two as well as in the sermon on the mount in Matthew five through seven, Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles talk about sin being kind of a power within us, that God's law is weighty and God's law is not cheap. It presses in, not only into our actions, but God's law actually presses into the level of our hearts. This is why Jesus says, "You have heard it said that you shall not commit adultery," but Jesus says, "but I say to you, whoever looks upon a woman with lustful intent has committed adultery in their heart."  
  
This is where I want to begin to go back to the original question of, "Can someone have assurance when they struggle with sexual sin?" Well, think of it like this, can someone have assurance when they struggle with any sin? You know, we like to pick on sexual sin and we like to pick on alcoholism or whatever, some sort of addiction, whatever it may be, but we often neglect some of the more grievous sins that God talks about, one of which is pride. So, can a genuine Christian who struggles with pride have assurance? I would say yes. Therefore, can a genuine Christian who struggles with sexual sin have assurance? I would say yes. Why do I say this? Well, in Roman seven, if you read through and you see Paul's struggle with his own flesh, you get to the end of Romans seven in verse 24 and he says this, "Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?" In verse 25 he says, "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ, our Lord. So then I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh, I serve the law of sin." Now, this is the verse I want to look at, Romans eight one, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."  
  
I think that's really good gospel news, that even in this life, as we struggle with sin, and that can include sexual sin, we struggle knowing that the victory lies outside of ourselves. The victory lies in Jesus Christ. Now with that said, I want to be careful, because that doesn't mean that we can go on sexually sinning in a high handed way. Certainly there are a lot of resources and there are a lot of ways and means by which we can receive help. Particularly, with a sensitive issue like that, I would encourage somebody who's struggling with sexual sin to go to somebody who is licensed and credentialed to perhaps get some help and think through that addiction in some really helpful and biblical ways, but I would say our assurance never lies in our ability to defeat sin. Our assurance always lies in Christ's ability to defeat sin, which happened in his life, death, burial, and resurrection.  
  
I know that this is a really hot button issue and that a lot of people struggle with this and it can bring a lot of shame, but ultimately, when we fight sexual sin or when we fight any other sin, we fight it with this status forward mindset that by grace, through faith in Christ, we receive forgiveness and we receive the Spirit, who helps us and enables us to fight sin. The enemy is going to work really, really hard to get you to struggle on the day in, day out, but we fight with our eyes looking to Christ. So, hopefully this answer is helpful to you. I know it's not going to be a night and day difference, but we pray that, through the hope of the gospel, sin could be rooted out, especially a sin that brings as much shame and guilt as sexual sin. You can find more resources like these at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. Thanks for listening.

---

### Why Does God Not Care About Me?

*Published: January 25, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/why-does-god-not-care-about-me*
*Tags: pain, suffering*

### Why Does God Not Care About Me? Answered by Jon Moffitt

### 

**Transcription:**  
  
Hi, I'm Jon and I'm going to be answering the question, "why does God not care about me?" I know many would think that's a weird question, but it's a legitimate question these days.  
  
People wonder, if God has the power to remove cancer, to save somebody, to prevent them from harm, to feed them, to provide a home for them, to provide a job, and yet he doesn't, God has all power and yet he doesn't do it, why is that a God that I would think is concerned about me or cares about me? There are all of these promises in scripture that God can and will provide and yet he doesn't. I know there are people who struggle, who won't publicly say it out loud, but would say that they don't like God. They hate God. A God who can provide and protect and heal and doesn't seems like a tyrant. Why would he do that, and why would he put requirements on people where if they perform well, then God will give them something? They have to earn it first. They have to earn that which he could freely give. There's nothing preventing God from healing this world. There's nothing preventing God from removing all pain and sorrow, and yet he doesn't. That's a struggle. We all feel that tension.  
  
I know there are many who don't like God. They play the game. They go to church. They sing the songs, but deep down inside, they're angry. They're upset. They don't feel loving compassion coming from their Father. This is because you have been lied to. This is because you've been told something about the Bible that is just not true. God never promised that he would remove death, and sin, and sickness, and suffering, and crime now. This Earth is cursed. It's been cursed since Genesis three. It's been underneath this groaning and painful sorrow, and people have been suffering because of sin, not God’s absence, and just as much as you hate crime, and cancer, and death, so does God. The result of everything that we suffer in this world is the result of sin.  
  
What God has promised and has been faithful to is his promise to rescue us from the very cause of all of this pain and suffering, which is our sin, and to rescue us from this world to go live in the new world, the redeemed world, the restored world, where there is no pain, there is no suffering, there is no crying, and there is no fear and anxiety. There's only joy. There's only love. There's only beauty, and glory, and worship.  
  
The confusion and the reason why most people hate God, if they're willing to admit it, is that they assumed that God promised that if they did the right things and said the right things, then God would help them. We live in a cursed world, full of sin. Nothing in this world will be restored until Christ comes back. The hope that God has given to us as his adopted children is the gospel and his community, his church. The church is supposed to carry each other, to bear each other's burdens, until we finally go home and God restores all things.  
  
The greatest joy and hope we can have now is to look to the love of Christ and his promises, that he will save us, that he will redeem us, and then we take that love and we love each other, and we encourage each other, and we strengthen each other while we await our homecoming.  
  
Most people are frustrated with life because somehow they're missing out and it's God's fault. Somehow they could have more, but God's preventing it. Sin is what's robbing us. Sin, the sin stricken world, our bodies, and the infection of sin is going to destroy us to the point that we will die, and when we rise again in our resurrection, we'll have new bodies in a new home with our King. That's where our hope is. So while we wait, we offer people love and we offer to carry their burdens until Christ returns. That is the promise of scripture, and if anyone ever tells you that it's God's design or desire to abolish anything in this world, until he comes back, that’s just not what God has ever promised.  
  
Look to Christ, wait for his return. That is his promise. I hope that encourages you.

---

### How Often Should I Question My Salvation?

*Published: January 18, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-often-should-i-question-my-salvation*
*Tags: Assurance, salvation*

### How Often Should I Question My Salvation? Answered by Justin Perdue

### 

**Transcription:**  
  
Hi, this is Justin. Today on ask Theocast, I am answering the question, "How often should I question my salvation?"  
  
Before I get into pointedly answering that question, I want to qualify what I'm about to say. When I talk about a local church context here in just a second, I am assuming a local church in which the word of God is rightly preached and the sacraments are rightly administered. I am assuming that this church is led by faithful pastors and that there is a loving environment that characterizes the community of that local church.  
  
So the question itself is, "How often should I question my salvation?" Biblically, the answer is that you should question your salvation whenever you are facing church discipline. That's it. I think that's a surprising answer for many people. Many people were expecting an answer that's much more individualized, perhaps, or much more subjective. But the New Testament is clear that there is an instrument that has been given to the church to deal with questions of whether or not people are in the faith. It is the mechanism, the tool, of church discipline.  
  
If you were to find yourself in a church context where the word is preached, Christ is heralded, and the sacraments are rightly administered, and it's a loving community led by faithful pastors, and your church, your pastors, and your congregation are coming to you patiently, graciously over an extended period of time, calling you to repent of ongoing, hard-hearted, high-handed, unrepentant sin- then that is the appropriate time for you to question your salvation and to question everything about your Christian life.  
  
The purpose of church discipline, we see, even in First Corinthians 5, is that people would be put out of the fellowship and kept from the Lord's table so that they might be shaken awake, so that they might be brought back into the fold and restored. It is a tool that the Lord has given the church for that purpose. So if you do find yourself in that situation where you are potentially going to be kept from the table and put out of the fellowship, that, in the providence of God, is the time for you to question whether or not you are saved, whether or not you have been united to Christ.  
  
Outside of that, brothers and sisters, we look to Christ always as the ground of our peace and assurance before the Lord. We fight against our sin in the context of a community of believers and we live the Christian life like we always talk about, status forward. We are justified and now we live in Christ. We are united to Jesus and now we live in him, and pursue good works, and we seek to love our brothers and sisters.  
  
So, please do not be burdening yourself with the slavery of hyper introspection. You're not a good evaluator of yourself at all, in terms of how you're doing. You need your brothers and sisters. You need your pastors in your congregation to help you do that, and the scriptures have outlined for us how we are to go about doing that by using church discipline faithfully in a gospel preaching church.  
  
I hope this answer is helpful. I trust it may be paradigm shifting for many, and I hope that's a good thing. The only time you ought to sincerely question your salvation is when you're facing the discipline of the church in which you are a member.  
  
God bless you. Keep trusting Christ.

---

### Does Hebrew 10:26 teach that we can and should reach a certain level of perfection?

*Published: December 14, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/does-hebrew-10-26-teach-that-we-can-and-should-reach-a-certain-level-of-perfection*
*Tags: Hebrews 10:26, Holiness, Perfectionism*

### Does Hebrew 10:26 teach that we can and should reach a certain level of perfection? Answered by Jimmy Buehler

### 

**Transcription:**  
  
Hi, this is Jimmy. On today's episode of ask Theocast, I'm going to be seeking to answer a question from one of our listeners, Zach, who asks about Hebrews chapter 10, verse 26, which says this: "If we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." In light of that verse, Zach asked the question, "Does this verse teach that we need to reach some sort of perfection in this life in regards to our sanctification?"  
  
Well, I want to give you a short answer and then a long explanation. The short answer is no, that is not what this verse is teaching. It is not teaching that we reach some sort of sinlessness or sinless perfection in this life.  
  
The word I want to focus on in that passage, Hebrews chapter 10, verse 26, is that word "deliberately". Something that you see both in the old and new testaments, particularly in how God talks to those who are in sin, is that God kind of has a category for those who are caught in sin and yet come to him in repentance and faith, but also has a category for those who are caught in sin, know they are sinning, and yet have this deliberate, or as I like to say and as we see it elsewhere in scripture, a high-handed approach to sin. We see this in the book of First Corinthians with the gentlemen, I believe it's in chapter five, who is knowingly committing sexual sin and is celebrating it and inviting others to celebrate it, and Paul invites that church to put him on some sort of church discipline. This is what we would call a deliberate sin, a high-handed sin: somebody who looks at the law of God, the commands of God, and says, "I don't need them. Even though they may be true, they're not for me, and I'm going to choose a sinful lifestyle."  
  
Verses like this can be really terrifying, particularly to those who have a sensitive conscience or perhaps have been burned in the past through legalism or even pietism. They can read a passage like this and they can think of all of the ways, just in one day, that they have failed to love God with all of their heart, soul, mind, and strength and failed to love their neighbor as themselves because they feel like, well, I'm sinning deliberately at times, and certainly even I, myself, there are times that I'm sinning deliberately, but really what it comes down to is what Paul talks about in Romans chapter seven, that in our flesh, in our human nature, we are going to struggle with sin for the remainder of our lives. We are going to feel its presence in our everyday lives until Christ returns or until we die.  
  
So, Romans seven kind of talks about this idea. Paul says he does the things that he doesn't want to do, and the things that he doesn't want to do, he keeps on doing, and so on and so forth, and that's just kind of the everyday reality within the life of the Christian, but this, what we see in Hebrews chapter 10, is a completely different mindset. This isn't the Christian who is struggling with sin, and yet, goes to the Lord in confession, running to Christ, who in Matthew chapter 11 invites us to come to him, for he is gentle and lowly in heart, but rather, what we see, this mindset in Hebrews chapter 10, is the person who says, "I just don't care. Even though Christ may be real, even though the law might be right and just, I want to choose this sinful lifestyle. I want to choose this sinful pattern of thinking or behavior or whatever it may be."  
  
It's in this case that the Bible, the New Testament, really does give us some stern warnings, which the writer of Hebrews does throughout this book. He warns his Jewish listeners not to be hard-hearted. He warns them not to go on sinning deliberately, but rather, to run to Christ in faith, and so, if you're listening to this and you would consider yourself to be of that sensitive conscience disposition, let me just say this, that when you sin and you struggle with that and you feel those senses of shame and guilt, it's in those moments that Christ's heart actually is drawn out to you, because in that moment, what you're experiencing is being crushed by the law of God, crushed by his holiness and his perfection, and it's in that moment that the pump is primed for the gospel to come in and tell you that you're not enough, that you are sinful, that you do struggle, and insert your own adjective there, but Christ is enough and it is by sheer grace through faith on account of Christ that he credits his perfect righteousness to us.  
  
Hopefully you found this answer helpful. You can find more resources like this at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. Thanks for listening.

---

### How do you interpret the narrow gate, narrow way?

*Published: December 7, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-do-you-interpret-the-narrow-gate-narrow-way*
*Tags: Narrow Gate, Narrow Way, Pietism, Sayings of Jesus*

### How do you interpret the narrow gate, narrow way? Answered by Patrick Crandall

### 

**Transcription:**  
  
Hey guys, Patrick here, and today on ask Theocast, I'm going to be answering Jamie's question about the narrow way and the narrow gate. Jesus uses this imagery towards the end of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew seven to describe what is necessary to enter into life.  
  
If you're like me, the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear "the narrow way" is staying on the straight and narrow. I think of my own ability to keep the rules and my own ability to perform. That's where I instantly gravitate towards. This actually gets us moving in the right direction toward understanding this passage rightly because if we look at scripture and what's necessary to enter into life, it always has been and always will be righteousness.  
  
We can see this beginning in the garden with Adam and Eve moving on through the mosaic covenant. What's always been required for life is in fact righteousness. Now, the question then becomes how much righteousness? How narrow is this narrow way? How small is this gate that we have to enter into? This is where things start to shift, because Jesus, earlier in the Sermon on the Mount, gives us a pretty clear standard. In Matthew five, he says that you must be perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect. That's a really narrow way, right? This isn't just "be pretty good." This isn't just "be better than your neighbor." This isn't just "be better than you were yesterday." We have to be perfect, and we know clearly from scripture and we should know from our own personal experience that perfection is something we will always fall short of. So what does that mean for us?  
  
Well, we've got to remember that Jesus, the one who used this imagery, also called himself "the way." That’s because this way was so narrow that there's only one who's ever walked it, and that's Jesus himself. He's the only one who had a perfect righteousness. He was the only one who was perfect as his Father is perfect. So there's one source of this righteousness.  
  
This call for us to walk the narrow way and to know that the narrow way is the only way into life is not a call for us to look to ourselves and to our own righteousness, and to try harder, and to be better, and to look to what we're doing for assurance that we are on the narrow way, rather, it's the opposite. It's a call to look outside of ourselves, to realize that we can never look to our own performance and our own righteousness as sufficient evidence that we are on the straight and narrow. The only way we can know that we are on that narrow way and that we will make it through that narrow gate is when we are in union with Christ, when we have Christ's righteousness as our own by grace through faith, clothed in that in union with him, that is how we walk the narrow way and enter into the narrow gate.  
  
It is nothing that we do. It is by faith and trust in Christ alone and looking to him outside of ourselves for righteousness that we do nothing to produce. It's all in Christ. So that is a reformed, covenantal way of understanding this narrow way, this narrow gate. It is meant to drive us outside of ourselves, to look away from our own performance and our own obedience, and to look to the perfect righteousness of Christ that is made ours by grace, through faith. I hope that's helpful to you guys and I hope you have a great week.

---

### Does God Leave His People?

*Published: November 30, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/does-god-leave-his-people*
*Tags: Assurance, God's Wrath, Mosaic Covenant, OT, Repentance*

### Does God Leave His People? Answered by Jon Moffitt

### 

**Transcription:**  
  
Hi, this is Jon. Today on ask Theocast, I'm answering Connor's question. He asks, "How do we reconcile passages that speak of God leaving his people with the assurance of the gospel?" In his question, he references multiple passages in the Old Testament where the children of Israel disobeyed God and then God punishes them, abandons them, or even at times, kills them, and he mentioned how sometimes when we sin, we may wonder, is God going to abandon and leave us, and how does this relate to the gospel?  
  
I think it's really important to understand what's called covenant theology here. Understanding how God interacts with people in the Old Testament is very important. In the Old Testament, the children of Israel were in a covenant with God where if they obeyed the covenant, the mosaic covenant, they would receive blessings and protections, but if they disobeyed the covenant, then God would discipline them in various forms, turning them over to their own enemies, even at times he left them out in the wilderness to die, a whole entire generation, but that was not related to their salvation. Salvation is always in Christ and it is always by faith. We are told that the gospel was preached to Abraham and he believed. They were justified by faith, but in relationship to the land promises, in relationship to God's presence and protection and blessing as related to the old covenant, then yes, they could violate that covenant and they would incur upon themselves that discipline that comes from God.  
  
The promise of the new covenant is that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, meaning that those who have faith in Christ to be his, to be our representative, to be our replacement, we will never receive punishment for our sins. This is why we can confess our sins and he is always going to forgive us of our sins and we will never be condemned for our sins. This is First John one, nine, and also, Paul says this in Romans five, that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.  
  
In the mosaic covenant, the punishment for their sin is not in relationship to their standing before God, as far as their salvation, but in the blessings of the old covenant and the protections of the old covenant. It's very helpful to understand this relationship. I encourage you to listen to our series that we did on covenant theology. You can find it on our website where we go through and explain how it is that God interacts with humanity and how the plan of redemption unfolds through covenants. On the side of the gospel, I think it is very important to understand that when you sin, all sin, whether past, present, or future, all sin is covered by the blood of Christ. There isn't some sin that is covered. It’s not that only past sins are covered. Christ's blood covers all of the Old Testament saints' sins and it covers all of those going forward. Those of us who weren't even born at the point, all of that sin is covered by the blood of Christ. It is sufficient, and on the cross, he says that it's finished.  
  
We have to rest in the fact that even though we have ongoing sin - as Paul said in Romans seven, the things I don't want to do, I keep doing them - we rely on the gospel, the good news, that Christ's blood covers all of our sins and that we have been cleansed by faith alone. There's no works that are required, and as we continue to struggle against the flesh and at times may give in to the flesh, we confess those sins and receive ongoing forgiveness (First John 1:9).  
  
The sacrificial system, by the way, was pointing to this final sacrifice. In the old covenant, they needed to daily, weekly, even yearly go to receive atonement for their sins. That pointed to the final sacrifice - the old covenant pointing us to the new covenant - which is Christ as the final sacrifice. As John says, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"  
  
So find your rest and hope there. God is not going to abandon you. God is not going to kill you. God is not going to forsake you. He has made a provision for this ongoing struggle with sin. It is prayer and confession. Christ's blood covers it all. I hope you find rest.

---

### What Is Biblical Repentance (Part 2)?

*Published: November 23, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-is-biblical-repentance-part-2*
*Tags: Biblical Repentance, Reformed Theology, Repentance*

### What Is Biblical Repentance (Part 2)? Answered by Justin Perdue

### 

**Transcription:**  
  
Hi, this is Justin. Today on ask Theocast, I am doing a follow-up to another ask Theocast that I recently recorded. That question in the previous episode was "what is biblical repentance?" and in the aftermath of that we had some really good follow-up questions submitted by several different people that I want to try to address today.  
  
First, let me briefly recap what I said last time in the previous question on "what is biblical repentance?" We considered how the word used for repentance in the New Testament, metanoia, literally means a change of mind. We thought about how repentance is a change of mind about several things, including a change of mind about God, who he is, and what he requires of us. It’s a change of mind about ourselves as we have come to agree with God in what he has said about us and what he has said about our sin and about how wrong our sin is. We have also experienced a change of mind about Christ and about the way of salvation, realizing that we are not okay and we could never save ourselves but we must look to Jesus and Jesus alone for our salvation. We also considered how repentance is something that God produces in and through us. God in his love and grace repents us. It's not something that we decisively do or produce.  
  
So some of the follow-up questions that we have received in the aftermath of that previous ask Theocast - there were a number of people who were encouraged by it and we praise God for that - but some of the follow-up questions include this: "Why then, if repentance is something that God does to us, if he does it through us, why are we then commanded to repent in scripture?" In addition, "How do we reconcile the definition of repentance that you gave with the way that repentance is often talked about, being a turning from sin to God?" Then finally, "What do we make of your definition of repentance, Justin, and the charges of antinomianism that are often levied against people who talk the way that you do?" I'm going to try to take those one at a time and speak briefly to each one, and hopefully this won't be a 10 minute ask Theocast. We'll see.  
  
So first, what do we make of the fact that we are commanded to repent in scripture? Well, we shouldn't be thrown off by this. There are a number of things that we are commanded or exhorted to do in the Bible that we in and of ourselves cannot do. For example, the entirety of salvation is a gift from God. The scripture is clear about that. Think about Ephesians 2:8-10\. In addition, we are exhorted in a number of places in scripture to believe in Jesus or to believe the gospel. Well, we would believe, according to our reformed, biblical definition of sin, that we were dead in our trespasses and sins, that we naturally are incapable, unable, and unwilling to believe or to have faith in Christ. It's something that God must do, that God must grant to us and be the one to produce in us. So, just like we're commanded to believe and can't do that, and God must do that in and through us, the same is true of repentance. We're commanded to repent, and God must be the one, by his Spirit, by his grace, he must produce that in us and must grant us repentance, to use the language of Acts chapter 11\. So don't let that throw you off. We are commanded to do a bunch of things that we can't do by ourselves, but God in his grace does those things in and through us. He grants those things to us.  
  
Secondly, how do we reconcile the definition of repentance that I offered last time with the way that repentance is often talked about in terms of being a turning from sin or a turning even from sin to God? Again, I don't think this is problematic in any way. As we experience that change of mind that we considered, the change of mind about God and about us and our sin and how wrong our sin is, as we experienced the change of mind about Christ in the way of salvation, that change of mind is certainly going to represent a change in thinking, obviously, and also a change in course and posture, and so we will be living a life of continual, ongoing repentance, where we are regularly turning from our sin, turning from our own natural ways of thinking and acting and living, and turning to God in faith. We're turning to Christ in faith, more particularly, and we are turning from our old ways and the ways of our flesh. We are turning to the ways of God as he outlines them in scripture, which brings us to the final piece, where a lot of times people that speak the way that I did in the previous episode of ask Theocast and define repentance the way that I did, we are charged with being antinomian.  
  
The thinking here is, well, brother, if you tell people that repentance is something that God does to them, that God does through them, then people are not going to have enough skin in the game. There's not going to be enough pressure on them to think seriously about their lives and about repentance and the like, and they will just kind of do whatever they want, and that's an old objection. Frankly, it's a worn-out objection, but in thinking about this, there's a couple of things that we can say. Having been born again by the Spirit of God, we now delight in the law of God in our inner man, and so Christians, because of God's Spirit dwelling in us, we want now to obey God. We have become obedient from the heart, to use the language of Romans 6:17\. So when we sin, we're going to be grieved by that. When our flesh is raging and waging war against our spirit and we end up doing things that we don't want to do, Galatians 5:17, we're bothered by that, and we are continually turning to God. We are praying to God, "God, I am sorry for my sin. I don't want to sin. Please give me grace that I might not sin. Give me grace that I might live unto you." This is what Christians do in an ongoing way, and we turn to God in faith, casting ourselves upon the mercy of God in Christ. So Christians, because of the presence of God's Spirit and because of the grace of God at work in us, will be living a life of continual, ongoing repentance, as I've already said, and so the charge of lawlessness demonstrates a misunderstanding of the gospel, a short-selling of the work of God in the life of the Christian, and it assumes wrong motivations in the Christian life. It assumes that we must be motivated, in some sense, by fear or dread or merit or something, rather than understanding that we are motivated by ultimately something supernatural, the presence of God in us, but we're also motivated at a human level by love, and gratitude, and joy, and peace because of what God has done for us.  
  
I think that this definition of repentance that we have offered here at Theocast a number of times is entirely in step with scripture. We should not be thrown off by the fact that we're commanded to repent. We're commanded to do a lot of things that God must do in and through us. Repentance is no different, and Christians, far from living a life of lawlessness, we will be living a life of continual ongoing repentance, where we're regularly turning from our sin to God, from our own ways to Christ, and we are crying out to the Lord for his mercy and grace and for his Spirit to work in us, that we might live lives that please and honor him. This is what the redeemed do. It is far from a lawless or apathetic life, but again, this is not something that you are going to produce in and of yourself. You're not going to white knuckle this thing. God is going to work in and through you.  
  
Continue to trust Christ. Continue to cast yourself upon the mercy of God in Christ. Continue to pray for God's grace, that you might love him, that you might love your neighbor, and that you might not sin. This is the ongoing, repentant life of the Christian. I hope some of this is helpful to you. I apologize for the length of this. I look forward to speaking with you again soon.

---

### What's the Bible's take immediate deliverance from a particular struggle with sin?

*Published: November 16, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/whats-the-bibles-take-immediate-deliverance-from-a-particular-struggle-with-sin*
*Tags: ongoing sin struggle, Sin, Struggle with sin*

### What's the Bible's take immediate deliverance from a particular struggle with sin? Answered by Patrick Crandall

### 

What's the Bible's take immediate deliverance from a particular struggle with sin?**Transcription:**  
  
Hi everyone, this is Patrick, and today on ask Theocast, we're going to be talking about silver bullet victory over sin. You guys have probably heard the stories of somebody who prays a certain way, reads something, fasts, and suddenly, almost magically, experiences victory over sin or a struggle that they've been entrenched in for a long time. Bryan wants to know, how should we think biblically about such things?  
  
The first thing we want to say is that we need to acknowledge that God is completely sovereign over sin, over our hearts, and ultimately over our sanctification, and he is not limited in any way as to how he works in that. So these things working in that way are not beyond him at all. In fact, one day, when we are glorified, when we are present with the Lord, he is going to perfect us and do away with everything in us that's corrupted by sin in any way. So that is all going to be an ultimate reality in every aspect of our lives one day, but that said, we need to acknowledge the fact that this is not the norm of the Christian's life here.  
  
In fact, the norm of the Christian's life here is struggle. I think there's a few passages of scripture we can go to. We can't go to all of them today, but just a few to give us kind of a sampling. One would be Jesus talking to his disciples before he goes to the cross and he tells them, "In this world, you're going to have trouble." They don't need to fear because he has overcome the world, but they're going to have trouble here. I also think of First John one, eight, where John says that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. So, John doesn't even see any kind of sinlessness as comporting with the truth at all, and I think perhaps most helpfully would be Paul's experience that we read about in Romans seven, where we read about this incredible struggle that Paul goes through, where he looks at his life and he sees himself doing things that he doesn't want to do and not doing things that he wants to do. Ultimately, when he sees that struggle and he feels that tension, he declares, "Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of sin and death?" So when we look at these passages and we can look at many others, it seems that the norm of the Christian life is not this kind of floating above the struggle of life and seeing instantaneous victory and everything, but rather, the Christian life here is in fact a struggle. It's this battle that is raging within us as the spirit and the flesh are both present, and so it's really important that we understand what to expect of life here as Christians, because if that kind of silver bullet victorious life becomes what we think is the norm, there's really significant consequences as we go through life. Perhaps the biggest and most devastating is what it does to our assurance.  
  
If the Christian's experience is this kind of magic, instantaneous victory on the norm, on the regular - that's what we should expect to see and to have - what does it mean for you when you don't have that victory in a particular area or when you don't have enough of it? Well, then, the logic is, if Christians experience this and I'm not experiencing that, what does that say about my faith at all? Am I even a Christian?  
  
This kind of expectation of life points us to look at our victory over sin for our assurance and it poses a question that we can never answer: how much victory is enough victory so that you can have peace, so you can have rest, and so that you can have assurance? There's no positive way to answer that question. There's no way to come up with an answer that you can hold onto and have any peace. The only line we have for obedience in scripture is perfection and we're never going to see that when we look to our own lives. So what we need to do is we need to see the Christian life the way scripture paints it out, as the struggle, as this battle, and we need to look for our assurance and our peace, not in our own performance, not in our own victory over sin, but in Christ.  
  
As Paul in Romans eight, one comes to as he makes that declaration of the wretchedness that he feels in this struggle and seeing his own sin, where does he look? He doesn't look to his own victory. He doesn't look to his own progress. He looks to Christ. In Romans eight, one, we read, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."  
  
I hope this has been helpful for you guys. Have a great week.

---

### Should We Live The Gospel?

*Published: November 9, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/should-we-live-the-gospel*
*Tags: Do the Gospel, Gospel, Live the Gospel*

### Should We Live The Gospel? Answered by Jon Moffitt

### 

**Transcription:**  
  
Hi, this is Jon, and I'm answering Rick's question today. He's asking, "Do we live the gospel or do we do the gospel?"  
  
We hear preachers who will tell us to go out this week and “live the gospel” or “do the gospel,” and it seems like maybe we're splitting hairs. Is this really an important question? It's actually a really important question because what we end up doing is we end up confusing the commands of the Bible or the law with the message of the gospel or the good news.  
  
So let's be clear, the gospel is something you believe and something you share because it's news. It's information. It's reporting what's already been done. It's not telling you what you must do. The gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ obeyed the law on your behalf, and then paid for your disobedience to the law, and now is offering this restitution between you and the Father by faith. So if you believe this news that's coming to you, that Christ actually accomplished this, he earned for you righteousness, he paid for your sin, now this can be yours, you can be adopted by God through faith alone. That's the message.  
  
You don't do that message. There's nothing to do. It's already been done. There's no command in the gospel for you to obey other than, do you believe this to be true? Because then you can have this as a gift. You can receive the gift of salvation because this message, the gospel, is true.  
  
In the Bible, we do have laws, and those laws are, "do this or don't do this," and if you do not obey them, you are then guilty and will be held accountable for that. That's a law. The laws are always, "this is what must be done or not be done," and if you don't do them, you shall be held accountable for them. The gospel is always, "this is what's been done, this is what's been accomplished, there's nothing left to do." This is what makes it good news. There's nothing left for you to do, all you need to do is believe it.  
  
So when someone says "do the gospel," they’re actually mixing the law and the gospel because there's nothing left to be done. This is why this is important. We must preach the clarity and the purity of the gospel: Christ's finished work on our behalf. He earned obedience for us. He paid for our disobedience. It's ours by grace because of God's mercy. He's not giving us what we deserve. We are receiving that which we don't deserve. That's the message. We preach it. We herald it. We study it. We give it. We share it. Then, in turn, because we are God's children and we are now in this new adopted relationship, he then tells his children, through Christ, the two commands that he has for them: love God and love your neighbor.  
  
We then, because we believe the gospel and because it's over us, as far as Christ's blood, obey those commands, but we do not obey the gospel itself. We do not live the gospel. We do not do the gospel. It's a message that is received. We hear it. We see it in the Lord's table. We see it in baptism. We hear it out of the word when it's preached on Sundays. It's what empowers us. It's what strengthens us. It's what gives us hope. It is not something that we do.  
  
Hopefully, that was helpful and encouraging. Please keep sending in your questions and we'll see you next week.

---

### What Is Biblical Repentance?

*Published: November 2, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-is-biblical-repentance*
*Tags: Biblical Repentance, Repentance*

### What Is Biblical Repentance? Answered by Justin Perdue

### 

**Transcription:**  
  
Hi, this is Justin. Today I am answering a question from Brandon. He asks, "What is biblical repentance?" The word for repentance in the New Testament, metanoia, literally means a change of mind, and so we might ask, well, a change of mind about what?  
  
Firstly, it would be a change of mind about God, about who he is, what his character is like, and what he requires of us as his creatures. We come to understand that God is good, that he is righteous and holy and just, and therefore requires perfect obedience from us, his creatures. Repentance is a change of mind about ourselves, about who we are and what we are, as we stand before God. We come to agree with God that what he says about us is true, that we stand guilty and condemned, that we are corrupt, and that we don't have a righteousness of our own upon which we could stand, and that therefore we are in tremendous need before God.  
  
Repentance is a change of mind also about Jesus and the way of salvation. We realize that the righteousness that we need and don't have can only be found in Christ. The forgiveness, the atonement, and the absolution that we need for our sins can also only be found in the Lord Jesus, by faith in him.  
  
Biblically speaking, this may be clear already in what I've said up to now, but I want to be explicit and redundantly clear. Repentance and faith, biblically, go together. Repentance and faith are not things that we should attempt to pull apart. It's very clear, as we've thought about this change of mind that happens in us, that repentance assumes faith and faith incorporates repentance. In thinking about those things, repentance and faith and how they go together, what I'm about to say I trust is also clear, but this is something that we tend to get wrong in the church in our context. If you hear anything that I say, hear this, repentance is not something we do. It's not a work that we do, but rather, it is a gift that we receive from God. It is something that God does for us, and that God works in us. So in one sense, it's right for us to say that God repents us. Just like God gives us the gift of faith, he gives us the gift of repentance as well. It's a turning that God produces in us, and that turning is always away from ourselves and toward Christ in faith.  
  
So, this has a lot of implications for us as we think about repentance. It's a situation where we need not focus so much on how we're doing it, the quality of our repentance, or the sincerity of our repentance. That kind of assessment and that kind of thinking rarely if ever lead anywhere good. When we remember, biblically, that repentance and faith go together, and that they are both gifts from God, and that they are something that God does in us and for us and through us and to us, we're starting to think biblically and we're on the right track in thinking about this change of mind. Praise God for his grace in the ways that he works in us and the ways that he shows us our sin and drives us to Christ who is our only hope for redemption and salvation.  
  
I hope this is helpful to you in thinking about repentance and faith and how all these things go together, and in thinking as well about our gracious and merciful God who gives us these wonderful gifts.

---

### What if I'm struggling to forgive, can I still have assurance?

*Published: October 26, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-if-im-struggling-to-forgive-can-i-still-have-assurance*
*Tags: Assurance, Forgiveness*

### What if I'm struggling to forgive, can I still have assurance? Answered by Jon Moffitt

### 

**Transcription:**  
  
Hi, this is Jon, and today on ask Theocast, I'm answering Sam's question, and the question has to deal with forgiveness and our assurance. He asks, "If I'm struggling to forgive somebody who has hurt me or offended me, how should that be seen in regards to my standing before God or my assurance?"  
  
Well, this is a complicated question, and it's not as simple as some may think. Sometimes we hear it said that if you're unwilling to forgive or if you're struggling to forgive somebody, then you yourself have not been forgiven by God. In the context when Jesus says this, there's a reason for what he is saying, and I don't think we should confuse it with the struggle.  
  
Let's think about this scenario for a moment. You've been hurt. You've been offended deeply, and you maybe don't have the opportunity to find restitution where this person is asking for forgiveness, or they're not wanting to repent and ask for forgiveness, and now you are left with the responsibility to then offer them forgiveness and not allow bitterness to swell up within you. It's hard because the offense is so hard, deep, and caused so much pain and scarring that you struggle to move past it.  
  
I think there's a difference between saying, "I absolutely will never forgive this person. I will always hold it over them," versus, "I struggle to forgive them. I have to forgive them over and over and over again because I do find myself falling back underneath that pain and scarring that was left behind, and I become bitter and angry again, and then I have to forgive them again." That's different, that struggle with sin. First John one, nine tells us that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, so that struggle with the ongoing forgiveness of this person is different from saying, "I absolutely will never forgive them for what they have done."  
  
Now, I think we also need to understand the difference between forgiveness and restitution. Just because you forgive somebody, it doesn't mean that the relationship with them has to be perfectly restored back to where it was. For instance, in a marriage where there has been tremendous unfaithfulness and pain, the spouse can offer forgiveness, meaning that they will not hold the sin of the other person over them, but that doesn't mean that the marriage can then be restored. It may be better for the marriage to not be restored in certain circumstances because it might be unsafe for the individual or it just may not be wise. Seeking pastoral council in that situation is important.  
  
To use a job illustration, if someone was dishonest at their job or did something illegal, and the boss then offers them forgiveness, like, "Look, I forgive you, I will not hold this over you, but that doesn't mean you can have your job back." That would make sense, right? So we always have to understand the difference between forgiveness and restoration.  
  
When it comes down to your relationship with the Father, I think that when you identify your struggle, understand that the lack of forgiveness is sinful, and acknowledge that you will maybe over time have flare-ups of anger and bitterness, you need to repent of those things and you need to seek the gospel. This is where the gospel frees us because no one has offended God greater than you have, and the sin that you have been forgiven of is far greater than any sin that could be committed against you. Remind yourself that what God has offered you in Jesus Christ and the sacrifice that was required, you have never made that sacrifice, nor will you ever. To offer forgiveness to someone will never require of you what God required of Jesus to offer you that sacrifice. I think that looking at the gospel and understanding the grace and mercy that's been handed to you can free you from this struggle, and knowing that it's okay to struggle as long as you're recognizing that it's sin and that you are working to look to the glory of Christ and the gospel can free you from this lack of forgiveness.  
  
To anyone who would say, "I am absolutely unwilling to forgive," you need to be careful there because that is not what we have been called to. Because we have received mercy, we give mercy, but that doesn't mean it should be one-time forgiveness and it's over and you never struggle with it again, that's just not how Christianity works.  
  
So my encouragement to you is to confess that sin. Seek Christ's forgiveness. Understand that it's offered to you. There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and don't carry that burden alone. Find other brothers and sisters who can encourage you, point you to Jesus, and help you find relief and restoration with the struggle to forgive and this pain and sorrow that you're suffering through.  
  
I hope that was encouraging. Please continue to send us your questions.

---

### What is the meaning of 1 John 5:16-17 and the sin that leads to death?

*Published: October 19, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-is-the-meaning-of-1-john-5-16-17-and-the-sin-that-leads-to-death*
*Tags: 1 John 5:16-17, Sin, Sin Unto Death*

### What is the meaning of 1 John 5:16-17 and the sin that leads to death? Answered by Jimmy Buehler
  
  
**Transcription:**  
  
Hey everybody, this is Jimmy. On today's episode of ask Theocast, I'm going to seek to answer a question from James, who asks this: "What is the meaning of 1 John 5:16-17 and the sin that leads to death?" It's a good question.  
  
Allow me just to read that passage for some context. John writes this: "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life - to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death."  
  
This can be a particularly troubling passage, especially for those who I would say have something similar to what I have, which is a sensitive conscience, those who have this keen awareness of their own sinfulness, their own wrongdoings, and the things that they have done to displease God. When we come across passages like this, we need to be careful and sensitive to what John actually meant to whom he was writing, and why he was writing that particular thing. I want us to be ever mindful of how John begins his letter in First John chapter one, where he says that if we confess our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  
  
You know, a lot of times I think we can approach these scary texts and we think that the apostles set out to confuse us, to bring us confusion, to cause us to struggle with our own assurance, and to wonder whether or not we are in the good graces of God, but if we look back just a couple of verses in chapter five, verse 13, he says, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know him and have eternal life." Clearly what John is not trying to do is confuse us, to confuse the sheep, and to cause them to look inward to the point of confusion.  
  
I want us to keep in mind the context of the entire letter. What John is really going after is this kind of person who has what I call and what I think scripture calls this high handed approach to the Christian life or the high handed approach to God, where they look at their sin, they look at the wrongdoings that they're committing, and they look at the holiness of God, and within them, they say, "I just don't care. I just don't care what God's law says. I just don't care that I am living in sin. I'm going to continually choose my sin." Ultimately what I think John is talking about here when he talks about a sin that leads to death is he's talking about this sin, this ultimate rejection of grace, and this ultimate rejection of Christ, that as they look at the things of God, as they look at Jesus and who he is and what he has done for us, they would rather, as the scripture says, be like a dog returning to their own vomit, that they would rather choose their own sin and reject Christ.  
  
So I think when John is talking about this, what he's not talking about is the person who mourns over their sin, the person that is fearful over their sin, or the person that sees the ways that they displease God and it causes terror and fear within them, because John gives us the solution to that, which is actually not to run from God, but rather to go to Jesus who is gentle and lowly in heart, and confess our sins to him.  
  
As we think about this passage, again, I want us to be mindful of its context, that John's not trying to confuse us, that John's certainly not trying to scare us, and that John is not trying to cause us to look inward, but rather, as is the solution to so many of these issues, we have to have this proper understanding of law and gospel, that the person who is struggling with obstinate sin, what they don't need is this false assurance, but rather, they do need a healthy dose of God's law. They need to see the ways that they have failed to love God and to love neighbor, and not only do they need to be confronted with God’s law, but then, we also need to rightly understand how the gospel plays into all of this, that after the law of God wrecks us, which it does, we see that God always provides grace for us in the gospel, that what God has demanded of us in his law, he has given freely to us in his gospel.  
  
So, just to be clear, the sin that leads to death, what is it? Well, ultimately it's a rejection of Christ. It's not failing to live a holy life because we all fail to live holy lives in so many different ways, but ultimately the sin that leads to death is failing to live a holy life and having this mindset of "I just don't care and I just don't need Christ. I just don't need his grace. I'm just going to go do my own thing." So yes, these passages can be terrifying, but ultimately I think what John says is he wants us to run to Christ. He wants us to confess our sins. Why? Because God is faithful, and God is just, and God is gracious, and God is kind to forgive us of all of our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, and so I hope and I pray that this answer is helpful to you.  
  
You can find other resources like this at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com, and I hope that this helps bring rest to your weary hearts. Thanks for listening.

---

### What Does It Mean to Take Up Our Cross and Follow Jesus?

*Published: October 12, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-does-it-mean-to-take-up-our-cross-and-follow-jesus*
*Tags: followjesus, lawgospel, lawgospeldistinction, takeupyourcross*

### What Does It Mean to Take Up Our Cross and Follow Jesus? Answered by Justin Perdue
  
  
**Transcription:**  
  
Hey guys, this is Justin. Today I am answering a question from Eric. Eric asks, "How does the cost of discipleship fit with our rest in Christ?" In particular, Eric is thinking about passages like Luke chapter nine and Luke chapter 14, where Jesus will tell us that we are to deny ourselves, to take up our crosses, and follow him.  
  
Well, a parallel passage to Luke nine is Mark chapter eight, and I think Mark chapter eight is very helpful in helping us understand what Jesus is getting at in using this language of denying ourselves, taking up our crosses, and following him. In Mark chapter eight, many will know that Peter confesses that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah and immediately Jesus begins to talk about his coming suffering, the fact that he's going to be rejected by the chief priests and the scribes and the elders of Israel, and that he will suffer many things, and that ultimately he is going to die, and then he will rise again. Peter then immediately rebukes Jesus for talking this way. Then Jesus, in turn, rebukes Peter and tells him, Peter, "you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."  
  
So it's really important that we take all of this into consideration. It is right after Jesus makes that statement to Peter that he then addresses all of his followers and tells them that they need to be prepared to deny themselves and take up their crosses and follow him. So Peter has just been saying to Jesus, Jesus, you shouldn't talk this way. You're the Christ. You're the Messiah. You should be talking about glory and triumph. You shouldn't be talking about suffering and rejection and dying. Then Jesus turns around and says, not only is it necessary, Peter, that I should suffer and be rejected and die, he then says to all of his followers, none of you should expect a life of triumph and glory in this life either.  
  
This is something we talk about a decent amount on Theocast. It's the difference between a theology of the cross and a theology of glory. We follow a crucified Savior. He suffered and so will we. We are called to deny ourselves and that call to denial is a call to deny our flesh. It's the internal war that we talk about so often, where our flesh and our spirit wage war against one another. We're called to deny our ambition to seek glory and power in this life as though it is the greatest good. We realize, as theologians of the cross, that God works through weakness and suffering and pain.  
  
Many will have experienced situations where they've been given a theology that tells them, do these things and you'll get better. Do these things and your life will go well. Do these things and you won't suffer any more or do these things and you will no longer struggle. Do these things and you'll no longer be weak. Well, that kind of theology has misunderstood scripture and is at odds with Jesus. A theology of glory tells us to make ourselves better, but a theology of the cross tells us to die to ourselves and to serve others.  
  
The way of the cross, in other words, is not a pathway to progress. The way of the cross is a way of life itself, and so this call of Jesus to deny ourselves, to take up our crosses, and follow him is his statement to us that in this life there will be suffering. In following him, there will be difficulty and there will be pain, but there is a glory that awaits.  
  
Glory and triumph will be the order of the day in the new heavens and the new earth, and there will be glimpses of that now; but it is a pattern of suffering and then glory, and in the midst of all of this, we can rest. We can rest because Jesus, in going to the cross himself, has accomplished everything necessary for our salvation. We don't need to do anything else in order to be reconciled to God, so when we encounter suffering and difficulty and struggle and pain, there is no reason to fear because we are safe and secure in Christ. Christ is helping his followers understand that their way of life in following him is not going to be obviously triumphant and obviously glorious all the time, but is going to be characterized by difficulty often in this fallen world.  
  
The cost, we all know, is more than worth it. The new heavens and the new earth will be epic, and we will be with God forever, and we will see Christ as he is. In the meantime, we rest in our Savior who has accomplished our salvation. I hope this is helpful to you.

---

### Is God pleased or displeased by our actions once we are in Christ?

*Published: October 5, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/is-god-pleased-or-displeased-by-our-actions-once-we-are-in-christ*
*Tags: Acceptance, Obedience, pleasing God*

### Is God pleased or displeased by our actions once we are in Christ? Answered by Jon Moffitt
  
  
Hi, this is Jon, and I'm going to be answering Andrew's question. He asked, "Is God pleased or displeased by our actions once we are in Christ?"  
  
That's a good question and I know there are many people who wonder, "When I sin, is God disappointed in me? When I do acts of kindness and love, is God pleased with me?" You can fall into a really deep pit of despair when you start looking at how often you do sin compared to how much you do works of righteousness or love and kindness. If you live in that constant comparative state, you'll forever wonder if God is ever pleased with you at any moment in your life because you won’t ever feel like you do enough to outweigh your sinful nature. A lot of people struggle with this.  
  
This is where our identity in Christ becomes very important to us. God does not look favorably upon you because of what you have done. That would mean somehow that your actions manipulate God in some way, whether negatively or positively. We are told that when we are in Christ, we are clothed with Christ's righteousness, and that when God looks at us, he sees the obedience of Christ. We wear the sonship of Christ upon us, and when the Father looks at us, he sees his Son, he doesn't see us.  
  
That's really hard for us to identify with because we don't feel the way in which God sees us. We don't see ourselves through the eyes of God. We can only see what we feel and see. I would even go farther to say, if someone has entered into this relationship where they assume that God is pleased or displeased with them based upon their doing, I would challenge them that they don't even understand how sinful they truly are, that they offend God in ways that they aren't even aware of.  
  
If you don't love God with everything that you are, your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and if you don't love your neighbor as much as you love yourself, you're not living up to the two greatest commands that have been given to you. Most likely, if you're going to live a balance scale life where you think your good is outweighing your bad, not in regards to salvation, but in regards to pleasing God, I don't know if you'll ever please him enough to outweigh the way in which you displease him.  
  
So I think we need to understand our identity and the way in which God interacts with us. He interacts with us based upon our status, not based upon our obedience. That being said, it doesn't mean your obedience is useless or it's of no value or you shouldn't focus on it. As a matter of fact, Paul and Peter both used this language of being ineffective or useless for the sake of the ministry and the gospel. So in regards to our obedience, the people who need it are our neighbors and our church members, our family members around us. They need us to be kind and gracious and loving and to consider how to build them up, and to love and to care for them and to sacrifice for them, and to share the gospel with the lost. So this is where your good works are needed.  
  
We get so twisted with the understanding of good works as if God needs our good works to verify us before he blesses us or before he saves us, he needs to see them, he needs to see we mean business. He needs to know that when we claim his name, we're also going to then claim him as Lord, and that's just not how it’s seen in scripture.  
  
We walk by faith. We look to Christ. We find our identity there. We find our security there. We find our hope there, and that's where we find our motivation. I would just look at things like Ephesians four, one and following, where he says, if you have been called, a worthy way of walking in your calling is to love your brothers, but he gives you that firm identity and foundation in Ephesians one through three. In Second Peter one and the first 12 verses there, he starts by saying that it's God's power that comes in and transforms us and brings us to life, and it's looking at the promises of God that transforms us into the image of Christ. Then he says, now, if these are true of you, add to them love and kindness and meekness and mercy, and he says if these are not yours and increasing, he doesn't give you fear or judgment, he says you've forgotten that you've been cleansed from your former ways. So he points back to the gospel.  
  
I'd say the gospel is the way in which we should find our identity. We are in Christ by faith alone in Christ alone. It is there we then move forward and love others because we don't want to be ineffective for the gospel. Because we love the Father, we want to see the message of the gospel go forward. So I don't think we should look at it as God is pleased or displeased with us. We are in Christ, so therefore, he's always pleased with us, but our actions can be ineffective and not helpful as it is to the accomplishment of his will here on the Earth.  
  
So hopefully that was helpful. Thanks Andrew, for sending it in, please keep sending in your questions.

---

### Does Jesus' Saving Work Violate the Human Will?

*Published: September 28, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/does-jesus-saving-work-violate-the-human-will*
*Tags: Calvinism, Free Will, human free will*

### Does Jesus' Saving Work Violate the Human Will? Answered by Justin Perdue
  
  
Hey, what's up? This is Justin. Today, I am answering a question submitted by Isaiah. He asks, "Does Jesus's saving work violate the human will?" It's a good question. In order to begin to answer that, we might want to first consider what the Bible says about human beings in a general sense and our wills in particular.  
  
So the Bible is clear that humans are responsible moral agents. We make choices that matter. We choose between good and bad and right and wrong, and we are absolutely culpable for the decisions that we make, the ways that we act, the ways that we think, and the ways that we feel. Scripture could not be more clear about all of that, and at the same time, the Bible is also clear that we are not exactly free in the ways that we tend to think that we are.  
  
Not only is Satan real, the one the Bible calls the prince of the power of the air, who is at work in all the sons of disobedience, but Satan exercises a kind of dominion over fallen men. Not only that, but we are also born, through Adam and Eve, with a nature that has been fundamentally corrupted and bent toward evil. So our flesh, our fallen nature, naturally desires things that are wicked. We crave things that do not honor and please God, and these desires and these cravings just happen. It's not something that we necessarily sign up for, and so it's important that we understand that our wills, in that sense, have never been, in our experience, free. It is not as though we can equally choose between good and evil. We are in bondage at birth and we are born into that bondage to Satan, and to sin, and the desires and cravings of our flesh. It is not as though human beings can walk around and make decisions that are completely free. In one sense we are always being acted upon by Satan, and even the corruption of our flesh affects and influences every decision that we make, and every thought that we have, and every feeling that we feel.  
  
What God does in his work of redemption through his Son, Jesus Christ, is he shows up and, not so much in a violation of the human will, acts in such a way where he inhabits and liberates our will. So, when we come to Christ in faith, we are doing what we want to do. We don't know everything at that moment when we decide to follow Jesus, which is an entirely appropriate thing to say. We make decisions to follow Christ, and underneath our decisions to follow Jesus is something that God has done for us. When we make that choice, when we trust in Jesus, we don't know everything, but we know that we need Christ and that he is the one who we can trust and the one that we need to atone for our sin and to provide us with righteousness. We joyfully run to him and cast ourselves upon the mercy of God in him.  
  
This is the witness of scripture, and this is the testimony of every Christian: that I was blind and now I see, I was in darkness and now I am in light, I was lost and now I'm found, I was dead and now I'm alive. So, it's important that we would understand that the human will is never entirely free in a place that is neutral, where we can equally choose good or evil, but because we are born bound to Satan and to sin, God comes in and sets us free. He inhabits and liberates our wills so that we might repent of sin and trust in Christ. It is a very good and gracious thing that God does for us, and I do not think that we should consider that to be a violation of our wills.  
  
I hope this is a helpful answer to your question, Isaiah, and I hope it's helpful to the listener. Continue to send us your questions over at asktheocast.com.

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### In John 15 when Christ says " abide in me..." should we see that as Law or Gospel?

*Published: September 21, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/in-john-15-when-christ-says-abide-in-me-should-we-see-that-as-law-or-gospel*
*Tags: abide, abide in me, john15, Law &amp; Gospel, law gospel distinction*

### In John 15 when Christ says " abide in me..." should we see that as Law or Gospel? Answered by Jon Moffitt
  
  
Hi, this is Jon, and today I'm answering Aaron's question. He asked, "In John 15, when Christ says 'abide in me', should we see this as law or gospel?" That's a great question.  
  
I think we can feel like it's law because it sounds like a command to do something, to abide, and when we've heard some people interpret this passage, they mean to say that abiding is two particular actions, which is reading your Bible and praying, and that those lead to abiding.  
  
Abide literally means to rest in, to reside, or to live within, so we abide in a home. In this context, Jesus is dealing with his disciples in the upper room. It's the last words he's giving them before he goes to the garden and he's going to be crucified. There he's completing all of his teaching. He's told them that he is the door, meaning that entry into the relationship with the Father comes through Jesus Christ, and that he is the good shepherd. He's the one that leads them. In his entire ministry, he's been teaching all of his followers and those who are listening to him that faith in him is the way in which we enter into this relationship and have our sins forgiven.  
  
I've come to seek and to save that which is lost. I've not come to the righteous but the unrighteous. I've not come to the healthy but the sick, to restore them. In this verse, in this context of John 15, Jesus says that if we abide in him, he will produce in us good works. Abiding in that context has to be seen in light of everything that Christ has said, that being, to trust Christ to be sufficient, not only to be our savior, but also our sustainer and the one who will produce in us the good works. This is the promise of the new covenant, that our heart of stone will be pulled out and a heart of flesh will be put in us. Paul uses the same language when he says that if we walk by the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. I think that is the same picture. It’s a different way of saying abiding in Christ.  
  
We are to live every day trusting in the promises of Christ, that we have been adopted, we have been set free, we have been cleansed, and that there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ, meaning that we are trusting in Christ to be the sufficient substitute in our place. That I think is what he's meaning. It's not so much a command of action as it is a command of faith, to trust in Christ and not in our righteousness. It's not trusting in the law or our obedience to the law, but we are trusting in Christ's righteousness. We're trusting in his obedience. We're trusting in him being our substitute on the cross, instead of us paying for our sins, and we are resting in that, trusting in that, and living in that reality. That's what it means to abide.  
  
So I would say it's good news. It's gospel. It's come unto me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Come abide. Come rest in me, my works, and my accomplishments. I think that's what he means.  
  
It's a great question. That passage should lead us to comfort knowing that it is God who's doing the work, and we rest in that, and God works through us through the power of the Spirit as we rest and abide in Christ. Hopefully that was helpful. Keeps sending us your questions.

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### How does God's sovereignty mesh with prayer?

*Published: September 14, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-does-gods-sovereignty-mesh-with-prayer*
*Tags: pray, Prayer, prayer and sovereignty of God, reformed prayer*

### How does God's sovereignty mesh with prayer? Answered by Jimmy Buehler
  
  
Hi, this is Jimmy. On today's episode of ask Theocast, I'm going to seek to answer a question from one of our listeners, Ravyn, who asks, "How does God's sovereignty mesh with prayer?" In other words, if God is sovereign, if he can do all things, then why does he ask us to pray for things?  
  
A few short weeks ago, our church was in a series on the Lord's prayer, and we see that one of the petitions that Jesus gives to us as his church, as his disciples, is that we pray. He invites us to pray, "Thy will be done." Here is what I said to our church, I said this, "When we pray, when Jesus invites us to pray, 'thy will be done,' we are actually recognizing that God is sovereign. It teaches us to recognize that God is sovereign and what happens is, when we pray, our hearts and wills are aligned with God's heart and will."  
  
What I want us to see is that prayer is not something that people have made up, but rather it is a God instituted, God ordained thing. It's a means given to us as his people, as an outworking of our faith. It draws us outside of ourselves to look to God as the giver of gifts, the giver of needs, and the giver of the things that we need in everyday life. In other words, we do not pray because we need to make God aware of something. We do not pray because God needs to know something that he doesn't already know, but rather, why do we pray? Well, we pray because God is aware. We pray because God does know and we pray chiefly because God is sovereign. God is the one who has invited us to ask, to seek, to knock, and to petition him in prayer.  
  
This drives us to see that God is a sovereign God who blesses and gives good gifts to his people. Paul says this in Romans chapter 11, beginning in verse 33\. He writes this to the church in Rome, "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom of the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and inscrutable his ways! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid, or who has been his counselor? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen." Right there, Paul says in a declarative way that from God and through God and to God are all things, to him be the glory forever.  
  
That doesn't sound like an unsovereign God, but rather a completely sovereign God. So what I want us to see, and hopefully this is helpful, is this, does prayer change things? Absolutely. Prayer does change things, but sometimes the greatest thing that changes in prayer is us. As God reorients our heart, our will, our ideas, and our minds to his will, his heart, his ideas, and his mind, we see that God is sovereign. It changes our perspective on whatever given circumstance. Prayer, then, serves as a means of grace that God has given us as an outworking of our faith in Christ, to see that God's ways are better than ours. As Job declared at the end of that book, no purpose of God's can be thwarted.  
  
I think we also have to embrace the idea of mystery here, that God has clearly given prayer as a means to be an agent of change in this world and that God invites his people to pray; but, ultimately, why I think he does this is it creates a humility in us as his people. It shifts our hearts and wills to his heart and his will.  
  
So hopefully this answer has been helpful to you. You can check out more resources like this at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. Thanks for listening.

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### Is there a point at which we can no longer repent?

*Published: September 7, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/is-there-a-point-at-which-we-can-no-longer-repent*
*Tags: Assurance, Hebrews 10, Repentance, salvation*

### Is there a point at which we can no longer repent? Answered by Jon Moffitt
  
  
Hi, this is Jon and today on Ask Theocast, I'm going to be answering Devin's question: "Is there a point at which we can no longer repent?" This kind of comes from Hebrews chapter 12 when it said that Esau sought repentance even with tears and it wasn't granted to him. So can there be a moment where you walk away from Jesus or you sin against Jesus so many times that you've kind of hit your limit, where there's no more grace for you? That's kind of what that passage may feel like it's teaching.  
  
I would answer, first of all, that in the context of Hebrews, he's dealing with people who are wanting to seek redemption and salvation outside of Jesus Christ. They're going back to the law and trying to live underneath that system in order to have the blessings and protection from God and have a relationship with the Father.  
  
The writer of Hebrews goes systematically through each chapter, showing that Christ is better than everything in the Old Testament. He's better than Moses, he's better than David, and he's better than the prophets and the angels. He is proving that salvation can only be found through Jesus Christ. Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 give some pretty strong warnings that if you turn away from Christ, you have no hope. There is no hope for you if you turn away from the only hope of salvation, which is Jesus Christ.  
  
It helps us when we look at all of scripture and compare the Bible with itself. We should look at other contexts where it talks about repentance and our sin. In Romans 5, it says there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. If we are in Christ, we are told that we have been completely washed, not only for our past sins, but also our future sins. Any sins that we can commit, if we are in Christ, they're covered. That means you can't be condemned for what you've done in the past or what will happen in the future.  
  
Paul even says in Romans 7 that he too struggles with sin. The things he doesn't want to do, he keeps doing them. The things that he should be doing, he's not doing them. Oh, wretched man, who will save me from this body of death? He says thanks be to Christ, and he points to the gospel. Then we go to 1 John 1:9, where we are told that when we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So when we continue to repent and we continue to confess our sins, we will always receive that forgiveness and the promise of forgiveness: that Christ blood has already paid for it, and it's covered. So, there isn't a limit to our repentance.  
  
Now, if someone does not see the need to repent of sin, or if they're unwilling to turn away, or in an attempt at innocence they think, nope, God didn't need to die for this even though the Bible clearly says that it is a sin- well, at that moment, they are walking away from the gospel. The gospel is the good news that God saves sinners, and if you don't see yourself in need of saving, then you're not going to see yourself in need of repenting.  
  
We are horrible at repentance, and I would even say that as much as you think you've repented, you haven't repented enough. This is where grace comes over us. Grace covers the sins that we even are unaware we need to repent of - people that we have offended and hurt, or ways in which we have offended God by not fully loving him - those are forgiven as well. We have to understand that if we are in Christ and we believe and trust in him, that the gospel covers all of our sins.  
  
I think it's dangerous to believe or teach that there can come a moment where you'll be no longer allowed to repent, that you've sinned too much. You've hit your max. I don't believe that the blood of Christ has a limit. There is not a point at which Christ’s blood can no longer cover your sins.  
  
I don't think that sets you free to go sin however you want, as that would be contrary to scripture, but I think it's helpful for us to understand that if we struggle with a sin that we continue to fight, we shouldn't struggle alone. The church comes in and helps us carry those burdens, and it confronts us and it strengthens us, and the body of Christ is there, designed to build us up and help us with our repentance, through the preaching of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments.  
  
So, no, I don't think that there can be a moment where a Christian could no longer repent, unless they're unwilling to repent. God is always willing and able to forgive us of our sins as 1 John says, if we confess them. So hopefully that was helpful. Thank you for sending in your question, Devin, and please keep sending in your questions.

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### What Does It Mean to Have Saving Faith?

*Published: August 31, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-does-it-mean-to-have-saving-faith*
*Tags: Faith, salvation, Saving Faith, Sola Fide*

### What Does It Mean to Have Saving Faith? Answered by Justin Perdue
  
  
Hey, it's Justin. Today I am answering the question, "What does it mean to have saving faith?"  
  
To begin to answer this question, let's consider two words that the Bible uses when it comes to our salvation. One word is faith and the other word that we often see is repentance. I think that we tend to look at those two things as though they are different things and separate from one another as though you can have faith without repentance or repentance without faith, and biblically speaking, that's just not true. They go together. Repentance and faith are essentially two sides of the same coin. What is repentance? The biblical word for it is metanoia. It means a change of mind. Well, a change of mind about what? It’s a change of mind about God, who he is, and what he requires, a change of mind about ourselves, our standing before the Lord, and what we need, and a change of mind about the way of salvation and about Christ in particular as that way of salvation for sinners such as us.  
  
It's important that we understand that repentance is not something that we produce in ourselves, but it is something that God grants to us. So, we don't repent ourselves. God repents us. When it comes to the faith piece, I think the 1689 London Baptist Confession words it better than I could in thinking about what the real marrow of saving faith is. What is it at its heart? The confession says the principle acts of saving faith focus directly on Christ- accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of the covenant of grace.  
  
We've already thought about how repentance is something that God does for us. He repents us. We see here that faith is by virtue of the covenant of grace. It is grounded in the unconditional promise of God to save his people. Faith is also something that is a gift from him that we could never produce. It is given to us, grounded in the grace of God. Faith focuses directly on Christ. Let's not miss that part, that it's about Jesus. We are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone.  
  
We are not resting upon anything or trusting in anything that we do, or that we might do, or that we refrain from doing. We are trusting in Christ for our justification, meaning we're trusting that he has atoned for our sin, he has satisfied the wrath of God for our sin, and he has provided us with all the righteousness that we'll ever need, and so we are declared righteous in the sight of God by faith in Christ.  
  
We are trusting in Jesus for our sanctification, our ongoing growth in righteousness and holiness throughout the course of our Christian lives. We don't understand that we're doing that, but that Christ is the one who will accomplish our sanctification by the work of his Spirit in us, and we are trusting Jesus for eternal life, that we will forever be with God on the basis of Christ's work and his merits, not our own work or our own merits.  
  
It is important for us to understand that it is not the quality of our faith that saves us or the sincerity of our faith that saves us. If someone were to ask how much faith is required, the answer to that question is, well, any! Any amount of faith is enough because you couldn't produce any of it in the first place. It came from God and it's important for us to realize that the quality of our faith doesn't save us. The object of our faith saves us.  
  
So it's not that faith in and of itself saves anyone. Jesus saves. The work of Christ, the merits of Christ, and the righteousness of Christ are applied to us through the mechanism of faith.  
  
I hope that answer is helpful to you.

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### What Will Heaven Be Like?

*Published: August 24, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-will-heaven-be-like*
*Tags: Heaven*

### What Will Heaven Be Like? Answered by Jon Moffitt
  
  
Hi, this is Jon, and today on ask Theocast, I'm answering the question, "What will Heaven be like?"  
  
Most of us when we think of Heaven, if we're honest, it's not a positive thought. We think of it more like a sterile hospital where we'll be floating around in white gowns and playing music, and it's this one long worship service and everything is spiritual, and there's really nothing else going on in Heaven, other than a very long hymn sing. That's just not the way in which the Bible describes our experience.  
  
First of all, we're not going to live in Heaven forever. That is the first mistake we make. The second is that we are influenced by Platonism. It's even called Christo-Platonism. Plato taught that anything physical is bad, anything at all, and the only thing that is good is the spiritual part of us, so that when we die, we're going to leave this body behind, and we're only going to live in a spiritual realm, which means we're not going to experience anything that's physical. This kind of teaching even led into thinking that Jesus was not a physical person, where he kind of floated and never touched the ground, because if he would have touched anything that was sinful or unclean, it would make him sinful, which is a heretical doctrine to think about anyways.  
  
It's influenced the way in which we think about the eternal state, where we're going to be up in the sky in this golden palace, and it's cold and sterile, and the only thing we're going to do is be in the presence of God, which I know many would say, well, what else matters than being in the presence of God? That's the only thing that matters is to be with him, which I completely agree, but the way in which John describes Jesus saying that he's going away to prepare a place for us, and this place that he's preparing is our home, and it's a gift from our Father who's going to gift it to us. Romans eight also describes it in this way, that the world has been cursed, and it's groaning, and it's anticipating when the curse will be lifted from it. So it's not that the world will be gone and passed away and there's no more world, but it's waiting for the curse to be lifted.  
  
Then Paul says in Romans eight, also, that we are looking forward. We too are groaning and anticipating and awaiting the redemption of our bodies to be restored back to the original intention, where Adam and Eve were in the garden, in this perfect place, and they walked the garden with God in the cool of the day, and they enjoyed, and they ate, and they smelled. All of these things were good when God created them. So when we think about the eternal state, we should understand that God uses this redemption, this recovering of the world that we live in now, and that the new heavens and the new Earth is a physical, real place where we will receive the benefits and the inheritance that God has for us.  
  
I would also say that we think that worshiping God only happens in song, or on our knees in prayer, or during a worship service, but the way in which the Bible describes worship, it says whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all so that it reflects, or it pays back, to the glory of God, so that in the new heavens and the new Earth, we will see the glory of God in his creations. The heavens declare the glory of God. The firmament shows his handiwork. We will see all that God has done, and we will worship him through sight, and smell, and emotions, and sound, and embrace. So the new heavens and the new Earth is not a spiritual realm completely disconnected from what we have now, but it's this world restored back to its original intentions where we will worship God, receive the benefits of creation, and glorify him for all of eternity.  
  
So, hopefully, that was encouraging for you, that you can anticipate living with God and it not being foreign to what we have now. I would describe this world as a postcard. It's but a picture of what's waiting for us when we show up on the shores of the new heavens and the new Earth. Revelation 21 describes that God's going to come and wipe away every tear, and that there's going to be no more pain, and no more sorrow, and no more death. So it's not this ongoing music service, but worship will happen as we glorify God and we enjoy the experience of his creation, and we enjoy relationships with each other in the presence of our savior. Ephesians two tells us that for the rest of eternity, we'll be looking into the unmeasurable grace that God has shown us, that part of our salvation, the purpose of our salvation, is that for all of eternity, we will dive deeper and deeper and deeper, learning and experiencing the grace of God in which he has saved us.  
  
So, the new heavens and the new Earth is this experience with God that is something to be anticipated. This is why Hebrews 11 describes the Old Testament saints looking forward to a new land, a heavenly land, where they will live in the presence of God, and Paul and Peter describe this anticipation of the restoration of our bodies and the restoration of the fellowship with God.  
  
So I hope you look forward to Heaven and understand and explore that it's not distant or disconnected, but it's something to look forward to. Please send us your questions at asktheocast.com.

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### What Is Covenant Theology?

*Published: August 17, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-is-covenant-theology*
*Tags: Covenant of Grace, Covenant of Redemption, Covenant of Works, Covenant Theology*

### What Is Covenant Theology? Answered by Justin Perdue
  
  
Hi, this is Justin, and I am answering the question, "What is covenant theology?" Just a quick disclaimer, before I even get going - this is a massive topic, and so what I'm about to do is a 30,000-foot fly over in just a few minutes. I hope it's helpful to you.  
  
Covenant theology is much more than simply believing that there are covenants in the Bible or that God works through them somehow. Covenant theology is a framework that's revealed in scripture through which we understand and interpret the entire Bible, and it's a framework that God works particularly and uniquely through in order to accomplish salvation. The three fundamental elements of covenant theology are the covenant of redemption, the covenant of works, and the covenant of grace.  
  
The covenant of redemption is made in eternity past, before the world began, amongst the persons of the Godhead. They covenant together to save a people from the mass of fallen humanity, and in particular, the Father and the Son covenant together to save the elect through the work of God, the Son, who would take on flesh to accomplish that redemption.  
  
The covenant of works is a conditional covenant that God makes with man, and as the name implies, it is conditioned upon what we do. If man keeps the conditions of the covenant, if he obeys them perfectly and doesn't violate them at all, then he can stand on his own merit before God, and is in right relationship with him. God makes this covenant with Adam in the garden of Eden. Adam is given things that he is to do, and he has given a prohibition that he is not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and we know that Adam transgressed the conditions of that covenant, resulting in punishment and judgment, namely, he plunged himself and all of his posterity into ruin.  
  
It's important to note that the covenant of works is revealed in other places in scripture than just in the garden of Eden. For example, at Theocast, we understand that the mosaic law, in the mosaic covenant, is a reissuing of the covenant of works, not formally, but with respect to its requirements, and of course there's the gracious provision of the sacrificial system revealed in the mosaic covenant as well. The covenant of works, though, represents what God requires of us in order to stand before him and be in right relationship to him, and it is a conditional covenant.  
  
The covenant of grace, on the other hand, is an unconditional covenant. It's an unconditional promise that God makes to his people that is not based on anything that they do, but it's based completely upon what the messiah does for them, and it is to be received by faith grounded in God's grace. The covenant of grace is promised in Genesis chapter three in verse 15, where God says there's a redeemer who will come to crush the head of the serpent, and it is revealed more and more throughout the Old Testament, and we finally see the covenant of grace established and accomplished in Christ in the new covenant.  
  
A simple way, I think to understand covenant theology is this: Jesus Christ fulfills the covenant of works in the covenant of grace in order to accomplish the covenant of redemption. So Jesus fulfills all of God's conditions and requirements for righteousness and forgiveness and the like, it is counted to his people by grace, through faith, that's the covenant of grace, in order that they might be saved, that’s the covenant of redemption.  
  
Something for you to know is that we plan to produce more content on covenant theology in the coming weeks and months. Some of that will be audio content, and then some of that, we hope, will be written content, perhaps even a primer on the subject. So hopefully this brief answer has primed the pump for you, and I hope that even these few minutes have been helpful to you.

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### What is the Theology of Glory vs the Theology of the Cross?

*Published: August 10, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-is-the-theology-of-glory-vs-the-theology-of-the-cross*
*Tags: Luther, Theology of Glory, Theology of the Cross, Theology of the Cross vs Theology of Glory*

### What is the Theology of Glory vs the Theology of the Cross? Answered by Jon Moffitt
  
  
Hi, this is Jon, and today on Ask Theocast, I'm answering the question, "What is the difference between a theology of the cross versus a theology of glory?"  
  
This is a theology that is as old as the mountain, it's been around forever. Martin Luther is the one who kind of brought it back to life and compared the two theologies.  
  
So let me explain what the first one is, a theology of glory. It is this idea that we are always improving, we're getting better and can get better. The more faith we have or the more work we put into our life, we will see financial blessing, health, protection, and progress- it's always about the progress of the Christian life. We're moving up and onward, and the design of God is this very purpose: the more we put in by faith and obedience, the more we give to God, then the more God will bless us. The reason why it's called a theology of glory is because it's for our own glory- the more that we are doing, the more we're advancing- it is pointing towards us.  
  
In contrast, a theology of the cross is the exact opposite of everything that has to do with the theology of glory. When we are called into faith with Christ, we are called to die with him. Paul says in Philippians 2 that not only have we been called to believe, we have been gifted or granted to believe, but also to suffer for his sake. As we enter into this relationship with God, there is not a guarantee of our health being protected or our wealth being protected. Rather we are told multiple times by Peter and Paul that we are going to suffer for the sake of the cross.  
  
In Second Corinthians, Paul talks about God giving him a thorn in the flesh. He asked God three times to take it away. In the end, God said no, and said that “my grace is sufficient for you.” Paul says that in calamity and suffering and destruction, all of this is exposing his weakness, and he says, “when I am weak, then I am strong.” Where Paul puts his hope and his rest is in the grace of God that comes to him. Where is the center point and the center focus of grace? It is always in the cross because it's in the cross that all of our sin is being forgiven and all that is needed to have a new life, to be adopted, and to be in the presence of God is granted to us through the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.  
  
What we are being told today is that if we do more and try harder, then God will provide protection and blessing and healing, that just does not line up with what the New Testament tells us. All of the apostles- except for John, who died of old age- but all the rest of the apostles died of horrendous deaths, and it wasn't because they didn't have enough faith or that God didn't protect them. For 2000 years, you have seen Christians who are being persecuted, who die from disease, who die of cancer, who die in accidents. Is it because God wasn't protecting them? We have never been told that God will come in, and for those who faithfully follow him, he will give them this protection. There's a confusion of the promises given to Israel for the nation of Israel, for the purpose of bringing us a Messiah, and confusion of the new heavens and the new earth.  
  
We are almost trying to bring the new heavens and the new earth here and now, and that's a theology of glory. We live in what's called an already-not-yet state. We already have all the forgiveness of God and the benefits and the promises of God. The not yet part is that we live in a Romans 8 world, where we are told that the earth is groaning, it has been cursed, and our bodies are awaiting redemption. As we wait, we are looking forward to the day of the not yet, where God will give us the same body that Christ has. He is described as the first fruits. He is the one to demonstrate what life will look like when we are raised from the dead, but that's not yet.  
  
So we live in the already. We have redemption. We have forgiveness. We are being sanctified. We're being transformed, but we're not glorified. We don't live in that new state. That's the not yet. So we live every day trusting in the grace of God. This is why Paul says, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." He doesn't mean the advancement of my finances or of my health. He means as I am still living in the sin-sick, broken world, the power of Christ in me will sustain me to accomplish what it is that I've been put here to do, which is to love my neighbor and to be a part of my church and to advance the gospel. Paul writes, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me," to the church who is being persecuted.  
  
A theology of the cross understands that we live in a sin-sick world, full of pain, full of suffering, full of anxiety and that it is the grace of God that will get us through. A theology of glory is basically the idea that the more you do, the more faith you have, then the more relief God will provide. And that's just not what scripture tells us.  
  
So hopefully this is helpful for you to understand that it is not your fault if you get cancer, or if a calamity happens, or if there's suffering- that is part of living in a sinful world. We rely on the grace of God to get us through, and one day we will be in the new heavens and the new earth, where all sin will be done away with, where God will wipe away our tears. So, for now, we live the theology of the cross. We look to Christ, we understand there's suffering and pain, but one day it'll all be removed. Hopefully, this is encouraging. Please continue to send in your questions and we'll see you next week.

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### What does it mean to be a faithful and mature Christian?

*Published: August 3, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-faithful-and-mature-christian*
*Tags: Christian Life, Christianity, Mature Christian, Maturity, Vocation*

### What does it mean to be a faithful and mature Christian? Answered by Jimmy Buehler
  
  
Hi, this is Jimmy, and on today's episode of ask Theocast, I'm going to seek to answer the question, "What does it look like to live every day as a faithful and mature Christian?" It's a really obvious and pertinent question because each of us lives and exists every single day, we wake up, we eat breakfast, we go to work, we eat lunch, we go to school, we do all of these things and have various responsibilities throughout the day. So, in light of that, what does it look like to do all of those things and live all of those ways as a faithful and mature Christian?  
  
To help us answer that question, I want us to remember a very small petition in the Lord's prayer, where Jesus teaches us to pray, "Give us this day our daily bread." You might wonder, what does this have to do with living a faithful and mature Christian life?  
  
I want to introduce you, if you're not familiar, to what's known as the doctrine of vocation, to help me explain it, let me point you to an illustration. Each and every day, when my family sits down for breakfast, lunch, or dinner, my son, who's five years old and loves farming, reminds us that what we're eating was grown and raised by farmers. Whether it's bacon, or vegetables, or wheat, or whatever it may be, he reminds us that what we're eating is farm food. So if we're having a bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich, a farmer had to raise that hog, had to then sell it, somebody then had to transport it and then process it, put it in a package. I then had to go to the grocery store, buy it, bring it home, and cook it. The same could be said of both the tomatoes and the lettuce. Now, what would happen if those farmers decided that they weren't going to do it that day? They weren't going to raise those things, they weren't going to sell them, and the grocery stores decided to stop working or they decided to stop selling those things. Well, what would happen is that my bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich would simply just not be in existence.  
  
The idea of vocation is that all of us have unique callings and different things that we have been handed in this life. Whether we are husbands or wives, whether we are sons or daughters, or whether we are brothers or sisters, whether we are doctors or musicians, or we are farmers, or whatever it is that we may be, we have unique callings upon our lives known as our vocations. I think often what we confuse is the idea of "spiritual disciplines" with spiritual faithfulness and maturity.  
  
That isn't to say that reading your Bible or praying daily or regularly is a bad thing. In fact, those can be very good things. But often I think what it means to be a faithful and mature Christian on a daily basis is you living out your vocation in a quiet, obscure, faithful way. If you're a schoolteacher, that means you go to school and you love your students, you serve them, and you teach them very, very well. If you're a medical doctor, you obviously do not cut corners and you do your job faithfully, and you offer proper and right and good diagnosis. If you are a dentist, a farmer, a principal, whatever it is that you may do for a living, you do your job well. Why? Well, because God often answers that petition "Give us this day our daily bread" through fellow sinners.  
  
So obviously we need farmers. We need doctors. We need musicians. We need actors. We need all of these different vocations for our lives to just exist. So let me just try to encourage you here, that often to live a faithful and mature Christian life means that you do your vocation, you do your job, you live out your calling- even if that means disciplining your kid for the nineteen thousandth time. You do it for the glory of God because often that means you're also doing it for the good of others.  
  
A lot of times I think faithfulness and maturity means that we live our quiet lives, and we attend worship, and we hear the word preached to us, and we participate in the body and the life of the church, and then we also live out our various roles and vocations in our daily life. We do so in a way that glorifies God because we do them well. We realize that everything we do, whether we eat or drink, we do to the glory of God. But we also recognize that when we do it that way- where we recognize that being mature and being faithful in the Christian life often means just living out our vocation- we do it because it exists for the good of others.  
  
So remember, when you do your job, God is answering someone else's prayer of "Give us this day our daily bread." I hope that this is helpful for you, this idea of vocation- that as we live out our vocation, God uses us sinners to meet the needs of other sinners.  
  
I invite you to check out our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com, where you can find more resources like this. Thanks for watching and listening.

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### Can I look at my love for Jesus to find assurance?

*Published: July 27, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/can-i-look-at-my-love-for-jesus-to-find-assurance*
*Tags: Assurance, assurance of salvation, Depravity, Jesus, Love for Jesus*

### Can I look at my love for Jesus to find assurance? Answered by Jon Moffitt
  
  
Hi, this is Jon, and today on ask Theocast, I'm answering Aaron's question. He asks, "If someone is struggling with their assurance, can I point to their affection for Jesus, or their love for Jesus, as the ground of their assurance, or as a way they can find assurance?"  
  
The problem with this is to assume that our affections are perfectly sanctified, they're perfectly holy, they're good and just at all times, and that we aren't going to waiver. We are told that the problem of humanity, and the problem with Christians, is our heart.  
  
Our heart has been brought to life. We are told by Ezekiel that our heart of stone has been pulled out and a heart of flesh has been put in, that we are these new creatures that really never existed before, which is those who have the Holy Spirit. But yet, we are still depraved. We know that we're depraved, meaning that we are still underneath the effects of sin, because we are warned by the apostle Paul that the flesh is going to battle against the Spirit to overcome the Spirit and the Spirit is going to be at war with the flesh to suppress sin.  
  
First John 1:9 becomes so important to the Christian life because it says when we sin, we are to confess that sin, and we receive forgiveness- he is faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Repentance is a part of the Christian life where we are constantly repenting of when the flesh wins against the Spirit.  
  
We're not told that that battle somehow is suppressed or goes away, but it’s this constant battle. There's a warning from James to be aware of Satan who was coming to try and trip us up, to trip our faith up, to get us to trust in the flesh or into sin or in temptation rather than in Christ.  
  
So, Paul tells us about this war that he has in Romans seven, were the things he wants to do, he's not doing them, and he knows the things that he shouldn't do, and he keeps doing them - oh wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body of death? And he says, “thanks be to Christ!” So his hope, as he goes on in Romans eight to tell us, is that eventually those whom God justifies he sanctifies, and those who he sanctifies he glorifies. The glorious chain of redemption means that one day, we will have perfect affection and perfect obedience of the Father. But right now we don't have that.  
  
Where does our hope lie? Well, all throughout scripture, we are told that sinners are cleansed of their sin, and they are given a new status of child who holds on to and wears, all of the riches of Jesus. We are clothed as if we are wearing his clothes. We are wearing his wealth. We are clothed in his righteousness.  
  
How is that given to us? How is it that we are cleansed and then clothed? We are granted all of the obedience of Jesus. How was that given to us? Is it given to us by our love for God? No, we’re told that it's given to us by our faith, and that faith is never quantified or qualified. It literally says if you believe in Jesus Christ to be your forgiveness and your righteousness, you are an adopted child. You are brought in and have all the blessings of Christ as we're told in Ephesians three. All of the glorious gifts that are given to us are given to us by faith alone Ephesians 2:8-9 says, so that you don't boast, it's not of any kind of work. It's nothing you drum up. It's not your affections. It's not your obedience. It's trust. As you sit and trust in the finished work of Christ, as you sit there and trust that it's enough, that there's nothing else required, you can have full assurance.  
  
Now, we are told in scripture, and the confessions help clarify this, that our good works and our affections can add to our assurance. It can bolster it, but it can never be the foundation. It can't be the ground upon which you stand, because the moment you put your faith and trust in your good works or in your affections, and sin and temptation comes, it will topple you over, and you will feel that you have no hope. All of a sudden you have denied God, as Peter found himself denying Christ and later on, even in his ministry, being rebuked by Paul for leading people back under the law; or King David, as he gets toppled over by sin and temptation. What does he say in his Psalm 51? “Restore to me the joy of your salvation.” He is looking to that which saves him, which is always a God outside of himself.  
  
So we too can take hope from Paul, and Peter, and King David, and understand that- as we wrestle and battle with sin- our adoption, our regeneration, our hope, and our foundation is always in Sola Fide. It's always faith alone. There are times where we may be called to examine ourselves. We hear those passages thrown at us. "Well, examine yourself to see if you're of the faith," and then they'll point to your affections or they'll point to your obedience. In context, Paul's not talking about their affections or obedience, he's calling their actual faith into question. He's saying, if you're accusing me of a false gospel, you better examine yourself to see if you're of the faith. I'm the one that preached the gospel to you, so you better make sure that you're in the faith because this is where you got your gospel. Context matters there. When it comes down to your assurance, I would encourage you that if you are going to base your assurance on your affections and love for God, your assurance is always going to waiver. It's on shaky ground. You should be looking to the one who is saving you. You never look to yourself to see how well you are doing at obedience to the one who is saving you. Assurance must rest in the power of the one who's saving you, never in your own power.  
  
Hopefully, that was encouraging. Please go to our website and send us your questions. Thank you for taking the time to do that today, Aaron, and we'll see you guys next week.

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### How much faith is required for assurance?

*Published: July 20, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-much-faith-is-required-for-assurance*
*Tags: Assurance, Faith, required faith, salvation*

### How much faith is required for assurance? Answered by Jimmy Buehler
  
  
Hi, this is Jimmy, and on today's episode of ask Theocast, I'm going to seek to tackle the question from Robert, "How much faith is required for assurance?" It's a great question, and we get similar questions like it all the time. If I may, I'm going to point you to a verse from the gospel of John chapter six, verse 44, where Jesus says this, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."  
  
You know, the question of assurance is a difficult one. Like I said, it's one that we receive all of the time, and the common thread that I see in that question is that even when people ask it, they're looking for some sort of self-validation. Something that I want to remind us all of is just the fact of scripture, the truth of scripture, what we see time and time again, that even faith itself is a gift. A lot of times we think that God does his part and then he throws the baton to us, and now it's our turn to do our part, and if we do it incorrectly, or wrongly, or not enough, then God is going to abandon us.  
  
So as we think about faith, something that I want to point us to is that we are not saved by the quality of our faith. That is, we are never saved by how good we believe, or if we believe enough. Rather, as we at Theocast like to say, how much faith is required for it to be saving faith? Well, the answer to that is, any faith. Any faith. The reason being this, as Jesus told us in John chapter six: faith is a gift. Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, is the one that draws us to the Father, and then Jesus promises in that same verse that he will raise us up on the last day.  
  
It's a difficult thing for us to trust it, but time and time again, something that I remind our church of is this truth: a lot of times, our greatest battle in the Christian life is not to do more and be better, but rather, sometimes the greatest battle in the Christian life is to trust and rest in the gracious promises of Jesus Christ in the gospel.  
  
So, to answer your question, Robert, how much faith is required for assurance? Well, any faith, because that faith is a gift by the Spirit in the first place.  
  
Now, you're probably going to ask some more questions, and I can even hear the alarm bells going off in your brain saying, well, how do I know that I have faith? Let me just point you to this truth, that the struggle that you're probably having internally, the struggle, the doubts, and the fears, listen to me, that is a Roman seven reality. What your feeling is what Paul felt and what we all feel, that we do the things that we don't want to do and that which we don't want to do, we end up doing. But let me point you from Roman seven to Romans chapter eight, verse one, that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And right before that, what does Paul say? Who will deliver us from this wretched body? Thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ.  
  
So Robert, what I want to point you to is not the quality of your faith. I want to point you to the object of your faith, which is Jesus Christ. That is what is going to save you, and that is who is going to raise you up on the last day.  
  
If you want to hear more about this, we invite you to check out our podcasts at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com, and there you'll be able to find additional resources as well. Thanks for the question. We hope this has been beneficial to you.

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### How should a Christian understand the phrase "with fear and trembling" in Philippians 2:12?

*Published: July 13, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-should-a-christian-understand-the-phrase-with-fear-and-trembling-in-philippians-2-12*
*Tags: fear and trembling, Philippians 2:12, Pietism, Reformed Theology, workout your salvation*

### How should a Christian understand the phrase "with fear and trembling" in Philippians 2:12? Answered by Jimmy Buehler
  
  
Hey everybody, this is Jimmy, and on today's episode of ask Theocast, we're going to seek to answer Matthew's question, and his question is this, "How should a Christian understand the phrase 'with fear and trembling' in Philippians chapter two, verse 12?", and so I'm going to go ahead and read that entire verse and then see if I can offer some helpful thoughts on it.  
  
The apostle Paul writes to the Philippian church in chapter two, verse 12, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."  
  
I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and assume that the question that's being asked by Matthew has more to do with our posture before God, in terms of our sanctification, in that, isn't it fear of judgment and isn't it fear of condemnation that kind of drives us towards holy living in this life?  
  
I don't think that's actually what Paul had in mind when he wrote this passage. Philippians chapter two is a beautiful passage, and in the beginning 10 or 11 or so verses, what is Paul talking about? He's actually talking about the humility of Christ, in that Christ did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but rather emptied himself, becoming a servant on our behalf, and then later on in verse 12 and on, what Paul points to is us as Christians to live in light of that. To also be those who do not grumble, who don't complain, who do all things without selfishness tainting it, and so even as we think about "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling", I think we need to keep in mind the greater context, that Paul is actually talking about humility.  
  
He's talking about what the gospel does in us, in that it produces a life of love, it produces a life of good works, it does not produce a posture of fear, and so when we look at the gospel, and we look at the ways that Jesus sacrificed himself for us, that Jesus, though he was God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but rather became a servant on our behalf, Paul then looks at us after proclaiming the status that we have in Christ, forgiven sinners now saints in the eyes of God, he says, man, don't you think in light of this, that we, in fear and trembling - and I want you to hear his tone here, I think the tone he has is just in awe of everything that God has done - shouldn't we in awe look at one another within the church, those who suffer with sin, those who are sinner-saints around us, shouldn't we have a posture of humble service of loving the saints around us?  
  
I also want to point you to chapter two verse 13, it says, "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." I think that's something that can bring us profound comfort, that as we continue as bodies of Christ in different contexts, in different places around the world, as we continue to go to church on Sundays to have Christ heralded to our sinful and weary hearts, to participate in the sacraments of the church, to see how the church continues to build itself up in love, we understand that God uses these ordinary means to draw us into union with Christ and with one another, and it is God who mysteriously does this, and so even as we think about working out our own salvation, I don't think that means Paul is saying, you know, God did his part, now it's your part, you go do your thing.  
  
I think what Paul is saying is, standing in awe of the good news of the gospel, we now look at one another differently. We can put on this posture of humility as Christ has done for us, and look at one another in love. So this fear and trembling is not a fear of condemnation, it's not a fear of guilt, and it's not a fear of shame, but rather it is this right sense of fear and trembling and awe. I think awe is the right word here, awe of a holy God, that he has sent his one and only son Jesus Christ, to live a perfect life on our behalf, to die a sacrificial death, but then to be rising again, to be risen again for our justification.  
  
So, we're not working out our own salvation in a workspace way, but rather we are putting on a posture of humility, and grace, and kindness because of what Christ has done for us. It is that status forward mentality, that Christ has called us his own, and we live in light of that truth.  
  
So, hopefully you found this answer helpful. I invite you to check out other resources at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. You can check out our main podcast there, where we seek to tackle a lot of topics like this at greater length. Thanks for listening, and we hope to see you and that you tune in to future episodes of ask Theocast soon. Thanks.

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### Are Calvinism and Reformed Theology the Same Thing?

*Published: July 6, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/are-calvinism-and-reformed-theology-the-same-thing*
*Tags: Calvinism, Calvinism Vs Reformed Theology, Reformed Theology*

###  Does Jesus Ever Turn Anyone Away? Answered by Justin Perdue
  
  
Hi, this is Justin. Here at Theocast, we get a lot of questions about Calvinism and about reformed theology and questions about whether or not Calvinism and reformed theology are the same thing. The short answer to that question is no. Calvinism and reformed theology are not the same thing.  
  
Calvinism is certainly a major tenant of reformed theology, but it is not the whole of reformed theology. So, in other words, everybody who is reformed is a Calvinist, but not everybody who is a Calvinist is reformed.  
  
So I want to take just a minute and outline several of the major tenets of reformed theology that would sort of distinguish it from simply being Calvinistic. So, you can remember the three C's of reformed theology: to be reformed is to be Calvinistic, covenantal, and confessional.  
  
To be a Calvinist means that we would hold to the five points of Calvinism as they have been described historically: total depravity, unconditional election, limited or particular atonement, irresistible grace, and then the perseverance or preservation of the saints.  
  
To be covenantal in our theology means that we understand the covenantal framework of the Bible. There was a covenant made amongst the persons of the Godhead in eternity past, known as the covenant of redemption. There was a covenant of works that God made with Adam in the garden that he broke, and thereby plunged humanity into ruin, and sin, and death. Then there is the promise of the covenant of grace that's revealed in Genesis 3:15 and is accomplished consummately by Jesus in the new covenant. So a good summary, I think, of covenant theology is that Jesus accomplishes the covenant of works in the covenant of grace in order to accomplish the covenant of redemption.  
  
In addition to those things, we can talk about confessional theology, being not only that we hold to a confession from the era of the reformation, but it's a posture, even theologically, where we understand that there are truth claims - in particular, truths about Jesus - that are to be believed in, trusted, rested in, and confessed. It's a very objective understanding of theology. We are looking outside of ourselves to save what's wrong in us. In particular, we are looking outside of ourselves to Christ to save us, and we are looking to the work of Christ that is finished. There is nothing left to be contributed that's necessary. Jesus has done everything that is necessary to save his people, and so we trust and rest in him.  
  
In addition to being Calvinistic, covenantal, and confessional, two other significant things to point out about reformed theology are an understanding, first of all, of the ordinary means of grace. Those ordinary means are just that, as the name implies, they're ordinary things that we do that the Holy Spirit of God uses to accomplish extraordinary ends, namely the imparting of faith and the sustaining, strengthening, and confirmation of faith. The ordinary means have been understood historically to be the right preaching of God's word and the right administration of the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's table, and prayer is another ordinary means that is often added in, as well as song, in the context of the gathered church. It's important that we understand that the ordinary means, properly understood, are corporate realities. These are not things that fundamentally happen when we're by ourselves, but they happen when the church gathers and assembles. The Spirit of God shows up to use these means, and these means are the primary and fundamental means of growth and sustenance in the Christian life.  
  
Finally, to be reformed in our theology would be to hold to an understanding of the distinction between the law and the gospel. Anything that we see in scripture that is a command or an imperative is law, where we're told, do these things and you'll be rewarded, do these things and you will live. That is law. There are proper uses of that law as reformed Christians have understood through history. The first use being to drive us to Christ by showing us our sin, the second use being to restrain our corruption, and the third use as a perfect guide for our lives in Christ. I've actually done an ask Theocast on the uses of the law before. The distinction there between that law and then the gospel is that the gospel is anything in scripture where we are told that Christ has done things in our place in order to save us. So when we're told, do these things, that's law, when we're told that Christ has done it for us and we are to receive it by faith, that is gospel.  
  
So in summation, in order to be reformed in our theology, we are Calvinistic, covenantal, and confessional. We would have an understanding of the ordinary means of grace in the context of the gathered church, and we would hold to a distinction between the law and the gospel. I hope that's clarifying for you and shows you some of the differences that would exist between some people who would claim to be Calvinistic and maybe even reformed, and then those who would hold to a historic understanding of reformed theology.

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### What does it mean to grieve the Holy Spirit?

*Published: June 29, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-does-it-mean-to-grieve-the-holy-spirit*
*Tags: Ephesians, Ephesians 4, Grieve the Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit, Pietism*

### What does it mean to grieve the Holy Spirit? Answered by Jon Moffitt
  
  
Hi, this is Jon, and today on ask Theocast, I'm answering Andrew's question, which he asked, "What does it mean to grieve the Holy Spirit?"  
  
This is a great question. It's often used to guilt people, to cause them to have fear if they don't obey enough or if they don't pursue godliness enough, and then their salvation sometimes is called into question.  
  
I don't think that's the intention that Paul had when he wrote this. If you look at the book of Ephesians, the whole first three chapters are about the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ, explaining how God saves sinners, that he chose them before the foundation of the world, and that their salvation is not by works lest any man should boast. It's a beautiful explanation of the hope that we have outside of ourselves in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Then in chapter four, he turns towards the church. He says, now, if this be true of you, then you need to respond in a worthy manner. He is not focused on individual obedience or the individual Christian - really at all.  
  
He focuses in on the function of the church, and explains that the Spirit comes and he gifts those with teaching, and preaching, and prophecy. He gifts those with the ability to give, and show charity, and kindness, and love, and then he says when the church functions properly, it builds itself up in love.  
  
So, that's the context of chapters one through four. The focus is on our assurance in Jesus Christ by faith alone, and then our response to that is growth in this faith. We are strengthened in this faith when we participate in the body. So then he talks about what can cause that unity. He says that we are unified. We become one because of the Spirit that lives within us.  
  
Let me just read to you from chapter four. A few of verses before he says don't grieve the Spirit, in verse 25, it says, "Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another." The Spirit, that lives within all of us, binds us together. It makes us one together. That’s the context. Then, if you look at verse 30, when he says, "and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God", you know he's already told us in context that the Spirit of God is that which lives within all of us, who binds us together, by whom we were sealed for the day of redemption.  
  
So, what can cause the grieving of the Spirit or cause division within the body? He says this, "Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from among you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you." So what he's actually going after is anything that could potentially cause friction within the body of Christ and prevent us from staying unified around the gospel that strengthens us and can go out to those who are lost. Paul is not trying to create fear or worry or saying that you better do right or God's coming after you. Paul is concerned that believers will not understand the priority and the purpose around staying unified in the gospel. Go back and look at the beginning of chapter four. It says to make every effort to remain in unity, the bond of peace, and that peace comes to us through our unity of the Spirit in Jesus Christ.  
  
Hopefully that was encouraging for you. Please ask us more questions on our website, share this with anyone that might find this encouraging, and we'll see you next week.

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### Does Jesus Ever Turn Anyone Away?

*Published: June 22, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/does-jesus-ever-turn-anyone-away*
*Tags: Calvinism, John 6, John 6:37, Reformed Theology, salvation*

### Is there ever a conceivable circumstance where Jesus would turn away someone seeking salvation in him? Answered by Justin Perdue
  
  
Hey guys, this is Justin. Today's question is submitted by Gunner, and he asks, "Does Jesus ever turn away someone who desires to be saved?"  
  
Well, Gunner, let me begin to answer your question by reading the words of Christ from John chapter six, beginning in verse 37, where he says, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never cast out, for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."  
  
In this passage, we see very clearly that the Father gives people to Jesus. The Father has chosen people from before the foundation of the world, and has given them to Christ, the Son. Anybody that is given to Christ will come to him, and Jesus says that anybody who comes to him, he will never cast out.  
  
So, in a sense, we can simply answer the question "Will Jesus ever turn away someone who desires to be saved?" with the proclamation that Jesus will never turn away anybody who comes to him in faith. He promises that he will save us and that he will raise us up on the last day. What comfort the words of John 6:40 are: the will of the Father is that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and Jesus says, I'll make sure it happens. I'll raise him up on the last day. So, no, nobody who comes to Christ and looks upon him and believes in him will ever be turned away, or will ever be rejected, or will ever be lost.  
  
Later on in John chapter six, just a few verses later in verse 44, Jesus does make it quite clear. He adds some words as to how people might come to him in the first place. He says, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” It sounds just like what he has said a few verses before. If the father has given someone to Christ, they will come to Christ. If the father has drawn someone, they will come to Christ, and this individual will never be turned away, and will never be cast out, and will never be lost, but Jesus will raise him or her up on the last day.  
  
We could also think about John three and Jesus's words to Nicodemus where he tells Nicodemus that no one will enter the kingdom of God unless he is born again. That phrase “born again” could also be rendered “born from above”. Then he tells Nicodemus that that happens by a work of God's Holy Spirit, and he compares the work of the Spirit to the wind. He explains that the wind blows and you hear the sound of it. You see its effects, but you don't know where it came from or where it's going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.  
  
So, how it is that people come to Christ in the first place is a work of God's sovereign grace, and the Bible is crystal clear that anyone who comes to Christ believing in him for eternal life will never be turned away. We can rest in that. We can hope in that promise. We can trust Christ and know that we will never be turned away from him. We will never be cast out, but we will be raised up with Christ on the last day.  
  
I hope that answer's helpful to you, Gunner, and anybody else who maybe listening. Grace and peace to you. Keep trusting Christ.

---

### How does covenant theology encourage assurance and rest in Christ?

*Published: June 15, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/how-does-covenant-theology-encourage-assurance-and-rest-in-christ*
*Tags: Assurance, Covenant of Redemption, Covenant Theology*

### How does covenant theology encourage assurance and rest in Christ? Answered by Jimmy Buehler
  
  
Hey everybody, this is Jimmy, and on today's episode of ask Theocast, I'm going to try to answer the question: "How does covenant theology increase our assurance in Christ?"  
  
I'm going to focus specifically on what's known as the covenant of redemption, which is the covenant made between the three persons of the Godhead, from eternity past, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, to redeem sinners. I just want to read from the book of Ephesians chapter one, less we think that covenant theology is something that we're placing on the text, rather, it's something that really rises out of the biblical text. So let me just read Ephesians chapter one beginning in verse three:  
  
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the beloved." Moving down to verse 13, "In him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."  
  
So, really what we see there is this covenant of redemption, that before eternity past, God, the Father, planned to redeem sinners. Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, is the one who accomplished that redemption, and then what we see later on in chapter one is that the Holy Spirit is the one who applies, or seals, that redemption. As we think about covenant theology, and specifically the covenant of redemption and how it increases our assurance, what I want us to see is that our assurance is completely, totally, 100% found in the objective realities of the gospel.  
  
A lot of times we confuse our assurance with how we feel or what we're thinking on the inside, but I think what covenant theology does so well, as we think about the covenant of redemption, the covenant of works, and the covenant of grace, is that it points us to these outward oriented things, specifically that, one, the Father has planned redemption. Before you ever sinned, before you ever messed up, before you ever took a breath, God, the Father, set his love on you. Second, Jesus Christ is the one who accomplished that redemption, so that when God looks at you, he doesn't look at your best days of obedience, he doesn't look at your worst days of sin, but rather he looks at the perfect righteousness of Christ, credited to your account, and finally, the Holy Spirit seals that redemption to you. It's not a work that you did. It's not like you had to reach up into heaven and pull it down, but rather, the Holy Spirit descended and sealed that upon your heart, took out your heart of stone, and gave you a heart of flesh.  
  
What I love about covenant theology is that it points us outside of ourselves, which is, I think, something we always need to remember when we think of the gospel. Our assurance is never found in something within ourselves, but rather in the objective realities of the gospel.  
  
If you want some more resources about covenant theology, and specifically the gospel itself, you can head to our website at Theocast.org. We hope that this episode of ask Theocast was beneficial to you. We'd ask that you'd share it with those that might find help and rest in it, and we are always encouraging you as a weary pilgrim to find your rest in the objective realities of Christ. Thanks for listening.

---

### What Does It Mean To Be Confessional?

*Published: June 8, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-does-it-mean-to-be-confessional*
*Tags: confessional, Confessional theology, Confessionalism, Confessions*

### What Does It Mean to Be Confessional? Answered by Justin Perdue
  
  
Hey guys, it's Justin. One of the questions that we get here regularly at Theocast is "What does it mean to be confessional in your theology?".  
  
A confessional framework begins with the understanding that the Christian faith is founded upon the objective and declarative realities of Jesus and his work in the place of sinners, and those realities are to be confessed, they are to be believed and trusted in. When we say that the realities of Christ and his work in the place of sinners are objective, we mean that they stand outside of us. When we say that they are declarative, we mean that they're done. They're finished, and so, in a confessional context, we are always looking outside of ourselves to Jesus and his work, which stand unaffected by us. His work is unaffected by how we're doing, how we're feeling, or even by our circumstance. He has accomplished our redemption. He has secured our salvation, and so we trust in him because there's nothing left to be done that is necessary. That's the lifeblood and the heartbeat of a confessional perspective.  
  
Now, of course, in being confessional, we are looking back to confessions of faith that have been produced throughout the history of the church, and as reformed Christians, we are particularly looking back to the confessions that were produced during the era of the Protestant reformation. Those confessions, like any other confessions that have ever come about, were produced by a need for theological clarity. The medieval church was characterized by moralism and even a works-based schema when it came to salvation, and so the reformed confessions push back against those things.  
  
In a reformed, confessional context, Jesus and his work are always in the foreground. They are the focus, and then the Christian and the Christian life stand in the background and are only seen through the lens of Jesus and his work for us. This is the opposite of a perspective, or framework, that would be called pietism, where the Christian and the Christian life are the focus, and then Jesus and his work are essentially in the background.  
  
In a confessional context, the primary, fundamental question that we ask when it comes to the Christian life is "Who are we? What's our identity?", and the answer to that question is “We are in Christ by faith”. Our duty, what we are to do, is then derived from our identity, whereas in pietism, it's the opposite. The starting point in pietism is "What must we do?", and then our identity is determined by that. It's determined by our duty. So it's important that we understand that distinction, that in a confessional world, Jesus is the focus, and the fundamental question is "Who are we?", and the answer to that question is, "We are in Christ Jesus".  
  
This has important implications for the Christian life in the church: that the motivation for obedience, piety, and godliness is always Jesus and his work for us, and also that the realization of piety, and the realization of godliness, in a confessional context, is never outside of the Holy Spirit's work in us.  
  
This is the beauty, and the wonder, and the safety, and the security of confessional, biblical theology. We're looking outside of ourselves to save what's wrong in us. We are looking outside of ourselves to the rock-solid work of Christ in our place. We are looking to the person and the work of Jesus, and the fact that everything that is necessary for salvation has been completed, and we are confessing, and trusting, and believing, and resting in those truths.  
  
That is what it means to be confessional.

---

### Declared Righteous or Made Righteous?

*Published: June 1, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/declared-righteous-or-made-righteous*
*Tags: Declared Righteous, Justification, Righteousness, Roman Catholic*

### What is the difference between being declared righteous compared to made righteous? Answered by Jon Moffitt
  
  
Hi, this is Jon, and I am answering the question: what is the difference between being declared righteous and being made righteous?  
  
This is really at the heart of the reformation. Roman Catholic theology teaches that through works and the sacraments, you are made righteous. You actually become righteous as part of your nature. As far as the reformation goes, we hold that, according to Romans chapter 5 verse 1, we are justified by faith. This means that one is declared to be right with God by faith, not by their actions. So, we did not actually gain forgiveness of our sins, and we are not by nature righteous.  
  
When God looks at us, he does not say that we are righteous, rather he says that we have been declared to be righteous. It has been pronounced over us. It has been given to us. It is not part of who we are. Once we are justified and have been declared righteous, God begins to sanctify us, transforming us into the image of Jesus Christ; however, we will not be made righteous until we are glorified, in heaven, when we are finally transformed into the actual image of Jesus Christ. That's when we will be made righteous, but as we stand right now, as believers, we have it declared over to us. It's pronounced upon us.  
  
This is why this is important: if we are made righteous, that means that God looks to our own righteousness as to why we are justified and why we can have a right relationship with him. This means our justification is now dependent upon our level of righteousness, and you have to not only gain it, but maintain it. This goes right along with the Council of Trent, Canon 24, where it literally says that your good works not only are part of your justification, but they increase your justification.  
  
We believe that sola fide, by faith alone, one is declared to be righteous. Not in a progressive stance, but in the eyes of God, there is nothing left - it is finished. The guilt of sin is removed from you, and all the requirements to be accepted by God have been given to you by Jesus Christ.  
  
The acts of obedience to the law- by Jesus on Earth- all of those good acts have been given to us, and not because we've deserved them or earned them. That is why God can look at us and say he declares us righteous. He pronounces us righteous because of the gift that we have received. As stated in Ephesians 2:8-9, we received this gift of grace, by faith - it is not something that we earned. The difference between declared righteous verses made righteous is that to be declared righteous is something that's pronounced over you, it is not because of who you are.  
  
This is also helpful when you think about your relationship to God going forward. If you have not been made righteous, which means it is not part of your inherent nature, you are now still going to battle the flesh. Paul says, “the Spirit wages war against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit”. That is because the Spirit lives within you, and is calling you to holiness, but it's not part of your actual nature. Your nature still fights back against that. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because you have been declared to be justified- not because you are actually righteous. God looks to the righteousness of Christ that has been declared over you, not to your own personal righteousness. One day we will be holy and righteous, but that is not who we are now.  
  
So, that's the difference between being declared righteous and made righteous. I hope this was helpful.

---

### What is Antonmianism?

*Published: May 25, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-is-antonmianism*
*Tags: Antinomian, Antinomianism*

### What is Antonmianism? Answered by Jimmy Buehler
  
  
Hi, this is Justin. Here at Theocast, we get a lot of questions about the Christian life, and if you look at those questions and try to find the common thread within them, it would be this: are we both saint and sinner at the same time? The answer to that question is yes.

One of the famous phrases that came out of the reformation is "simul justus et peccator," which means "at the same time justified and sinner." It could also be rendered "at the same time saint and sinner."

What that phrase is trying to communicate is what the Bible says about us. We are, by faith, in Christ Jesus. In that regard, we are saints. We have been united to Christ by faith. All of his merits, all of the benefits - everything that is his is now ours by faith. All the satisfaction that he has made for our sins is counted to us. The death that he died under the law is counted to us. It is as though we have paid the penalty that we owe to God for breaking his law. Also, the perfect life of Jesus - his perfect record of obedience and fulfillment of the law in every way - is counted to us. It is as though we have done the righteous works that Christ did.

God the Father looks at us, in Christ, and declares us righteous. We have been born again by the Spirit of God. We have been circumcised in our heart with the circumcision that is not made with hands. It's not the circumcision of the flesh, but it is the regenerating work of the Spirit of God to circumcise our hearts with the circumcision of Christ. In all of these ways, we are saints. We are new creations in Christ Jesus. We now delight in the law of God in our inner man. We are very much saints, and at the same time, we still battle the corruption of our flesh.

We still fight against sin, and that's because we have not been fully sanctified yet. We have not been glorified yet. There will come a day when we will sin no more, but that day has not yet arrived. We will still battle against the desires of our flesh. Paul makes this very clear in Romans 7 and in Galatians 5:17, where he depicts so powerfully the internal war that we now experience. We often find ourselves doing things that we do not want to do, and we often find ourselves not doing the things that we want to do. This leads us to cry out with the apostle Paul, "wretched man, wretched woman that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?". Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ, our Lord, there is, therefore, now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

So, the presentation of the New Testament is very consistent. We are saints in Christ Jesus. We are righteous in him. We are safe. We have peace with God. We have been reconciled to God and we are awaiting resurrection unto righteousness and incorruptibility. But, for now, until then, we will battle sin. We are still sinners, and that's because we have not been completely delivered from the fallen flesh that we still live in. We are free from the slavery and tyranny of the law, we have been freed from the dominion, slavery, and tyranny of sin, and we will one day, in Christ, be raised incorruptible and imperishable. We long for that day. Until then, we continue to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work in our place, even as we continue to battle our corruption and the sin of our flesh.

Grace and peace to you.

---

### Are We Both Saint and Sinner?

*Published: May 18, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/are-we-both-saint-and-sinner*
*Tags: saint and sinner, simul justus et peccator*

### Are We Both Saint and Sinner? Answered by Justin Perdue
  
  
Hi, this is Justin. Here at Theocast, we get a lot of questions about the Christian life, and if you look at those questions and try to find the common thread within them, it would be this: are we both saint and sinner at the same time? The answer to that question is yes.

One of the famous phrases that came out of the reformation is "simul justus et peccator," which means "at the same time justified and sinner." It could also be rendered "at the same time saint and sinner."

What that phrase is trying to communicate is what the Bible says about us. We are, by faith, in Christ Jesus. In that regard, we are saints. We have been united to Christ by faith. All of his merits, all of the benefits - everything that is his is now ours by faith. All the satisfaction that he has made for our sins is counted to us. The death that he died under the law is counted to us. It is as though we have paid the penalty that we owe to God for breaking his law. Also, the perfect life of Jesus - his perfect record of obedience and fulfillment of the law in every way - is counted to us. It is as though we have done the righteous works that Christ did.

God the Father looks at us, in Christ, and declares us righteous. We have been born again by the Spirit of God. We have been circumcised in our heart with the circumcision that is not made with hands. It's not the circumcision of the flesh, but it is the regenerating work of the Spirit of God to circumcise our hearts with the circumcision of Christ. In all of these ways, we are saints. We are new creations in Christ Jesus. We now delight in the law of God in our inner man. We are very much saints, and at the same time, we still battle the corruption of our flesh.

We still fight against sin, and that's because we have not been fully sanctified yet. We have not been glorified yet. There will come a day when we will sin no more, but that day has not yet arrived. We will still battle against the desires of our flesh. Paul makes this very clear in Romans 7 and in Galatians 5:17, where he depicts so powerfully the internal war that we now experience. We often find ourselves doing things that we do not want to do, and we often find ourselves not doing the things that we want to do. This leads us to cry out with the apostle Paul, "wretched man, wretched woman that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?". Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ, our Lord, there is, therefore, now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

So, the presentation of the New Testament is very consistent. We are saints in Christ Jesus. We are righteous in him. We are safe. We have peace with God. We have been reconciled to God and we are awaiting resurrection unto righteousness and incorruptibility. But, for now, until then, we will battle sin. We are still sinners, and that's because we have not been completely delivered from the fallen flesh that we still live in. We are free from the slavery and tyranny of the law, we have been freed from the dominion, slavery, and tyranny of sin, and we will one day, in Christ, be raised incorruptible and imperishable. We long for that day. Until then, we continue to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work in our place, even as we continue to battle our corruption and the sin of our flesh.

Grace and peace to you.

---

### What is a Redemptive Historical Understanding of the Bible?

*Published: May 11, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-is-a-redemptive-historical-understanding-of-the-bible*
*Tags: Baptism, Bible Reading, Reading your Bible, Redemptive Historic, Redemptive Historical*

### What is a Redemptive Historical Understanding of the Bible? Answered by Jon Moffitt
  
  
What is the redemptive-historical understanding of the Bible? It is the way we interpret God's word - how it flows and what its overarching purpose is.  
  
If you start in Genesis 3:15, you have the fall. Adam and Eve have tried to be like God. What is the first promise that is given to them? That glorious promise is the introduction to the gospel. It is what we call the first gospel - that God is going to provide a seed through Eve, and he's going to come and crush the head of Satan while his heel will be bruised.  
  
What is being said there is that he is going to take on the punishment and make right what Adam and Eve had made wrong. The Bible, from that moment forward, is the fulfillment of this promise. It is clarified as we learn that it is through Abraham that all the nations will be blessed, and then it is through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Then we have the mosaic law that is given as a further explanation of our need for the gospel. We learn that the fulfillment will come through David, but we see it is Jesus Christ who ends up fulfilling the mosaic law, or obeying it. That fulfillment shows us who the Messiah is. As we continue to walk through scripture, we see the unfolding plan of redemption. God promised to Adam and Eve that he would redeem them, and it's clarified through every chapter of God's word through history. We read the history of the nation of Israel. We read the history of God interacting with humanity. As we do, we see that it's a redemption unfolding through history; hence, the redemptive-historical understanding of God's word.  
  
As you read every section of your Bible, it is not disconnected from the main theme and purpose of God's word. Often, we disconnect what's going on and individualize books. We read the story of Daniel, or we read the story of David, or Nehemiah, and we try to learn how we should live a better life, or how we should interact with God. But those stories are not disconnected from what God is doing. Those stories are a part of the main theme, which is redemption.  
  
God is fulfilling his plan as it unfolds through Adam and Eve and through Abraham and through the people of Israel and through the kingdom of David, and it keeps unfolding until you get to Matthew. You cannot disconnect these stories, including Proverbs, or Song of Solomon, or Ruth. All of these are still within the greater narrative of redemption. So, as we are interpreting them, and as we're reading them, we have to see that each book is pushing along God's promise to his people - that he is going to redeem them through Jesus Christ. Once we get to the New Testament, it becomes clear: we see a redeemed people who are now living in this new covenant reality of being in union with Jesus Christ, and then the full culmination of redemption where God is restoring all things. As we get to the end of Revelation, we see that what we lost in the garden, God is going to restore to us. He is not only redeeming people, but he's also redeeming creation back to its original intention, where we can live with God in peace and harmony.  
  
The story of the Bible is to be read with what we would say is a redemptive, historical understanding. This is what we would also call a confessional, reformed understanding - this isn't new to Theocast. It is a very historic, old understanding of scripture: where God unfolds, through redemption, these covenants through history. As we read about each covenant, we can see that God is progressing the redemption of his people through these covenants in the unfolding of history. Hopefully, this is helpful for you.

---

### What Are the Uses of the Law?

*Published: April 26, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-are-the-uses-of-the-law*
*Tags: Gospel, law, Three fold Use of the Law, Three Uses of the Law*

### What Are the Uses of the Law? Answered by Justin Perdue
  
  
Hi, this is Justin. One of the questions that we often get here at Theocast is about the uses of God's law. What are the uses of the law, and how should we understand them? Historically speaking, in the reformed tradition, we understand that there are three uses of the law.

The first use is to show us our sin and drive us to the savior. God, in his law, has revealed to us what he requires for righteousness. His law is holy. His law is perfect, and he requires perfect obedience and fulfillment of his law all the time, if we are ever going to stand before him and be righteous in his sight. We learn in Deuteronomy 27 and James chapter 2, amongst other places, that if we break any part of God's law, we are guilty of breaking all of it.

As we assess our lives in light of God's perfect and holy standard, we realize very quickly that we have failed to meet that standard. We have not passed the test, and so we are driven outside of ourselves, away from our own works and our own notions of our own righteousness, to find our righteousness elsewhere.

That righteousness has been provided for us through Jesus and Jesus alone. Christ has done two massive things for us with respect to God's law. First of all, he has perfectly kept and fulfilled God's law for us in the place of sinners. His life was perfect. He always obeyed everything that God had revealed in his law. He kept it perfectly, and his perfect life, his perfect obedience, and his perfect record are counted to sinners by faith. It's as though we too have perfectly kept and obeyed God's law all the time.

Secondly, Jesus died to satisfy the penalty that the law requires of everybody who breaks it. Now, Jesus, obviously he didn't sin, so he did not deserve that penalty himself. He died, and took that penalty, and satisfied that penalty for us, so that by faith in him, we would have peace with God, and be reconciled to God. Our punishment has been handled in full.

So, the law, as God gave it, and as God has always intended, is to do just this: to show us who and what we are, to show us that we have not met the standard that God has for holiness and righteousness, and to drive us to Jesus who has kept the law for us. God never intended that we would keep the law for righteousness, but that we would be driven to Christ who has kept the law, and in him would be counted righteous, and in him we would be reconciled to God. That's the first use of the law.

The second use of the law, broadly speaking, is to restrain our corruption. Now, sometimes, in a more narrow way, this is defined as the civil use of the law because it's useful in society and for civilization. God in his law has told us what's good and what's bad, and what's righteous and what's evil. He has promised blessing and reward for doing good, and he has threatened punishment and even curses for doing evil.

As we look at that, and assess all of that, we conclude rightly that to do good will be good for our lives; we can expect blessing from that. To do evil will be bad for our lives; we can expect punishment and even curses for disobeying and breaking God's law. So, we are encouraged by all of that to keep God's law and do good, and we are discouraged and deterred from doing evil. In that sense, it restrains our corruption. That's the second use of the law.

The third use of the law is to serve as our perfect guide for living in Christ. In Christ, we know that by faith we're reconciled to God and have peace with him, and the law therefore no longer threatens us in any way; however, it does guide our living. God gave us his moral law in the Old Testament, and he's also given us a number of imperatives in the New Testament that tell us how we're to live together in the church. All of those things are good for us, and they guide our lives, and we seek to conform our lives to God's word by grace as we are safe in Christ Jesus. This is a good thing for us. Calvin would even say that the law is our kind adviser in Christ as we seek to conform our lives to it.

So, that's the three uses of the law as the reformed have understood it. I hope that this has been helpful and clarifying for you.

---

### What Does It Mean to Distinguish Law and Gospel?

*Published: April 26, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-does-it-mean-to-distinguish-law-and-gospel*
*Tags: Gospel, law, Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction*

### What Does It Mean to Distinguish Law and Gospel? Answered by Jimmy Buehler
  
  
Hey everybody, it's Jimmy, and today I'm going to seek to answer the question: what does it mean to distinguish the law from the gospel? It's something we reference in our podcast all the time, and you may be a little confused by what we mean by that.

When we say law, what we mean is the imperatives of scripture, the commands of scripture, or the things that we are to do. No matter where we see it, whenever we see something that we are to do, this is what we call law.

The gospel, on the other hand, is the indicatives of scripture. By that, we mean the things that God has done, or the things that God has declared, or accomplished, for us in Christ.

Let me just give you an illustration or example: Jesus summarizes the law to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. This is law. So, realistically assess yourself. Do you love the Lord your God with all of your heart, with all of your mind, and with all of your strength, and not only that, but do you love your neighbor as yourself? Well, the answer to that is a resounding no.

Martin Luther writes this: that the law says do this, and it is never done. As you come to the end of your day, there is always more that you could do. You could always love God better. You could always love your neighbor more; but, the law says do this, and it is never done. So, the law then drives us to Christ. It drives us to the gospel, in that Christ himself lived a perfect life. He did all of the things that we could not do. He accomplished all of the things that we could not, on our behalf, so that by grace alone, through faith alone on account of Christ alone, our sins - the ways that we've not lived up to God's law - are forgiven. Not only that, but Christ's perfection to the law is credited to our account, and so, what God has demanded of us in his law, he has provided for us in his gospel.

Does this mean that we shirt the commands or the law of scripture? By no means! Rather, we live in what we like to call "status forward", in that we are struggling sinner-saints who are walking, pilgriming through this life, and we understand that we are forgiven, not because of anything that we have done, but because of what Christ has done on our behalf. We understand that we are counted righteous in God's eyes, through Jesus Christ, through the gospel.

As we come to the commands of scripture, and as we come to the imperatives, we always look back to the indicatives: that what God has demanded of us in his law, he's provided in his gospel - that we do not have to fear the commands of God, but rather we rest in Christ and we live status forward.

This is just a short, little introduction to this topic. I invite you to check out our website, where we go more in depth with not only law and gospel, but other topics as well, that we hope to help you rest in Christ.

---

### What Are the Means of Grace?

*Published: April 17, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/asktheocast/what-are-the-means-of-grace*
*Tags: Baptism, Lords Table, Means of Grace, Prayer, preaching, Sacraments, Sanctification, Spiritual Disciplines, Spiritual Growth, The Word*

### What Are the Means of Grace? Answered by Jon Moffitt
  
  
Hey everyone, this is Jon, and I'll be answering the question: What are the means of grace? If you've grown up in a traditional evangelical church, you've been taught that the way in which you mature, or grow, is by disciplining yourself through certain spiritual acts, such as: Bible memorization, daily devotions, prayer, journaling, fasting. The better you get at these, the more mature you'll become.  
  
Paul speaks to the Christians in Galatians chapter 3, and he warns them and says: why are you so foolish to think that you've begun by the Spirit, receiving a gift of grace, faith, that you are now going to perfect yourself by use of the law, or disciplining yourself through the flesh? He says that the way in which you've begun, which is by the Spirit through faith, is the way in which you're going to continue. So, he is encouraging them that you are both saved and sanctified, or matured, by faith.  
  
This is what the reformers refer to as 'the means of Grace'. God gives us means to strengthen our faith because our faith is what sustains us and is what grows us or sanctifies us.  
  
There are means that God has promised that if we use those means, the means of grace, then God is going to strengthen and bolster our faith. The confessions describe these as the word, sacraments, and prayer - The sacraments being the Lord's table and baptism.  
  
If you look at Ephesians chapter 4, you'll notice that Paul, after this glorious Gospel message, hands the church very important instructions. He says that God, through the Spirit, has gifted many of you to be teachers and preachers, and that when the church functions properly, it builds itself up in love.  
  
The instructions to the believer after receiving the Gospel is to come together in a corporate reality, and receive the gifts that God has given the church: the preaching and teaching of God's word. So, it's through the corporate preaching and teaching of God's word that he strengthens our faith.  
  
Can you read God's word individually by yourself? Yes, but that's the new reality. During 1700 years of the church, past Acts, they didn't have personal Bibles. They used the public preaching and teaching of God's word to strengthen their faith. So, it doesn't necessarily work for a large section of history.  
  
When it also comes to baptism and the Lord's table, these are what we would call physical means, where we actually taste, and feel, and see. We hear God's word, the preached word, and then we physically interact with the means of grace. When we think about baptism, we are buried in the likeness of his death, and raised in the likeness of his resurrection. We are experiencing physically what happens to us spiritually, and we look back to our baptism to remind us that we are one with Christ because we've been cleansed and we've been united. We're in common union with Christ. This is what communion means: Those believers who are in common union, we come together in communion, and receive from Christ his body and his blood, so that we can have our faith strengthened. We're looking to the cross for what Christ has done every time we take communion, not to what we have done. We're not looking to our faithfulness, but to Christ's faithfulness to us, and then, in prayer - What are you doing in prayer? You're depending upon God. Every time that you go to him confessing your sin, go to him with a need, or even praise for who he is, you are depending on God outside of yourself. So, prayer is another form of dependence.  
  
We receive God's word to strengthen us, we receive the sacraments to encourage and strengthen us, and we also pray to receive his grace to strengthen us. It's through these primary means that God uses to strengthen and mature us. God can, and does, use other means throughout scripture. Even fellowship is an important means which God uses, but these other means are not the primary means by which God has promised to strengthen our faith. So, that's where we want to focus our attention, trusting in what scripture has handed us to be the primary means in which God will fulfill his promises in maturing and strengthening our faith.

---

## Transcripts

### MEMBERS: What Is-and Is Not-the Gospel? (Transcript)

*Published: January 27, 2021 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel-transcript*
*Tags: Gospel*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. Before we go any further, we want to thank you sincerely for your partnership with us in this ministry to see this message of the sufficiency of Christ and the rest that is ours in him spread as far and as wide as possible. We are excited about what 2021 holds for Theocast, and you are an integral part of that. We appreciate you very much.  
  
We here, and you guys have probably observed this about us, get more worked up over this stuff that we're talking about today—the nature of the gospel—than we do anything else. We will unapologetically and doggedly defend the objective declarative realities of Christ and the gospel and the sufficiency of Christ to save sinners until the day we die or Christ returns.  
  
So, we're going to unpack some of these things a little bit more for you. There's no guarantee that we won't get fired up in the things that we discuss. Jon is already acting like he's going to poke the bear a little bit. I don't even know what to say. Pray for us. Pray this would be edifying.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We, as pastors, day in and day out, have to shepherd people who are so weary, so tired, so beat down, scared, afraid, and angry. I'm actually getting people to admit at my own church that they don't like God. I know that sounds crazy—and we're going to do a podcast on it—but I'm telling you right now, if you're listening to this podcast, I can convince you that you don't like the God you say you love because the gospel has been confused to you. Someone has confused the gospel. Assuming the gospel to you is the good news that God will fix your life, that's the good news to you, and then it doesn't happen—there's cancer, there's death, there's sorrow, there's constant addiction, there's this struggle that doesn't go away and you're say God is a failure and you don't really like him. You can't say that out loud and you can't verbalize that you don't like God, but you don't like him. I'm telling you right now, whatever gospel that's been handed to you, it is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because Jesus says, "All of you who are heavy-laden, come to me and I will give you rest." So, if you're not resting, if you're not truly finding the joy of your salvation as David says, then that means whatever you are believing in is robbing you of that.  
  
My entire life existence is centered around—and I don't care if I was a plumber or a doctor, I want to encourage all of my congregation to think of this way—that my life existence is to lead people to rest in Jesus Christ, no matter what my occupation is. The only way I can do that is through the gospel. If someone has confused the gospel, that means they have confused the only hope and the only reason for living this life.  
  
I'm a little agitated when someone comes in and, and messes with the good news that you can find hope in Christ. It's probably the only thing that you're going to see me die for, and the only thing that I'm probably going to fall on my sword for. Everything else, I'm thinking, "Eh... we can talk about those things." But if you remove hope, there is no reason. I'm just claiming Paul here. If you remove the clarity of the finished work of Jesus Christ, go party. Go do something else. It doesn't matter. Life does not matter. I know that sounds extreme, but I believe that.  
  
If you want to know what gets a text thread boiling faster on my phone—and we're on quite a few text threads—is that when some prominent evangelical who should know better, and I say that very gently, puts clutter on the gospel; I would say clutter that absolutely robs people of hope. That's where the kid gloves come off. There are a lot of things in this world that don't really get my blood boiling, but the moment someone comes in and adds something to the gospel—and here's what's sad: it sounds so right when they say it.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I have an analogy that I've used often. One of my favorite meals is a big hearty bowl of beef stew. You get beef, potatoes, carrots, and maybe some peas in there. Growing up, we had two dogs in our household and my mom would often buy these cans of wet dog food. When I would open these cans and I would pour it out into the bowl, if I didn't know any better, this just looks like a bowl of beef stew. Literally, it had like chunks of meat in there, brown sauce, carrots, and some other vegetables. If I didn't know any better, if you were to put that in a bowl, I would take a spoonful of that just thinking that it's beef stew. Frankly, this is often what I see when people want to attach some sort of qualifier to the gospel; that you have to do this, or you have to say this, or you have to treasure this much, or you have to forsake this much, or my personal favorite: you have to be at least willing to do all of these things. How deep do you want this rabbit hole to go? How much hope do you want to rob off people? All of these quotes that I see from like major evangelical sources, I'm thinking do these people know what good news is?  
  
Think of it like this: imagine I was standing across from my soon-to-be-wife on our wedding day and I said to her, "Babe, you have to be willing to love me above all else for me to love you." You may now kiss the bride. Is there good news in that? Now, if I stand across from my bride on our wedding day and say, "Hey, I know there are going to be days that you fail and there are going to be days that you kill it. I know that there are going to be days that you sin against me, and I know that there's going to be days that you love me sacrificially. But in all of those things, I want you to know that you are forever loved, safe, secure, justified, made righteous because I'm committing myself to you." And that's what Christ does now. That's good news. It strips us completely of all of our hopes of being righteous in ourselves and causes us to throw ourselves on the mercy of God and Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone.  
  
Justin Perdue: Picking up on things that both of you guys are saying, I think that what gets me really upset when I see articles posted, or tweets, or whatever it may be, is that there is a tendency so often to turn this question of what the gospel is back in on us. It comes across like the good news of Jesus Christ, salvation, heaven and hell, and all of those things, live and die and rise and fall with us and how we're doing. For our sake here at Theocast, and I know I am to do this unashamedly in my own local church, I rejoice in being able to help people see that the gospel has absolutely nothing to do with us at all. That sounds really insane, and it sounds wrong, it sounds impious or something, to say that the gospel has nothing to do with us, but it doesn't. The gospel has everything to do with Christ and only him, and what he has done for us that we then received by faith, as we've already been clear on it on numerous points.  
  
I sometimes struggle with how anybody could ever read a number of these things that are tweeted or written and think that there's any good news in it at all. Because as I look at it, I think, "That there is slavery and bondage. I'm ruined and I'm damned if this is what Christianity is. I am wasting my time, I am a moron, and I need to go about doing something else because I will never meet the test." I get confused as to how anybody thinks they could ever pass something like this, that they could ever clear the bar. I want to say, "Have you people ever looked inside your own hearts for just a moment? The fact that God knows your heart is terrible news for you, and you're not doing well."  
  
I think that there are good and bad ways to go about communicating such things. I know that we aim to communicate this stuff in gracious ways, and in ways that are clear, and we want to be nuanced and helpful. But I think it's a great service that we do for our local churches, as pastors, when we get up and make these things plain: that if this were about us at all, we're wasting our time, but thank God it's not. Christ has us and we are safe and secure in him. It's a reason that I was jaded for a long time. I know many of us were.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: For sure. Because you're being thrown back on yourself. Anxious people tend to be pretty cunning because they're scared about something.  
  
Something that a friend of mine in our church said—he said two things from our pulpit and elsewhere that has always stuck with me. He might've taken the first one from somewhere else, but that's fine. All truth is God's truth. He says the banner under which we live the Christian life is not "do more and be better", but the banner under which we live the Christian life is "it is finished." That's the first one. The second thing is this: he always says, "If I am saved, it's only because of the mercy of Jesus Christ, because salvation belongs to the Lord."  
  
Jon Moffitt: "Lest anyone may boast." That's the phrase that just frees me because if there's something I can take credit for, I will. I'll take the credit. And Paul says, "Listen, there's nothing left for you to hold onto. You don't have a reason to boast. You were saved by grace through faith in Christ so that you don't boast." And if we're going to boast, what did he say? "Boast in the Lord." The hard thing about this is that they will quote that verse and then hand you things and tell you not to boast about it. "Don't boast about it, but this is still something you need to do." What? That is ridiculous. You hand me something, not to boast about it, but yet it's still something I have to do.  
  
Justin Perdue: You've referenced Ephesians 2:8-10 and 1 Corinthians 1:30-31\. But in Corinthians 1:31, Paul quotes Jeremiah, and says, "So that, as it is written, 'Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.'" Because of God, we're in Christ, and Christ has become to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. In other words, Christ is everything. He is all. I know we say that a lot and we sing, "All I have is Christ," and, "Hallelujah! Jesus is my life," and that's true. We mean that. So did Paul, and so did the writers of Scripture—they mean that when they say he is everything.  
  
Then of course, there are all kinds of implications that come from the gospel and what Christ has done. There are outflows of this, and those things are all great. We want to talk about them, and we want to live in a way that's good for us in the church, to where we might be safe, loved, and not wreck our lives. But Lord help us when we start weaving these things into the groundwork of what it is to have peace with God.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Here's the other thing. Something that you said there, Justin: let's not confuse the implications of the gospel or the quality of our Christian life, which are things that are just common sense. It's common sense to love your wife, it's common sense to be a good dad, or whatever it is that it may be.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or not blow up in anger at other people.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right. I lived like this for a long time. If you go back and you just listened to the list of things that we said in our regular portion of the podcast, I lived my life like this for so long that when I would sin, or when I would fail, or when I would have some grievous thought or heart motivation, I would go through that list and think, "I don't treasure Christ enough," or, "I don't love God enough," or, "I'm not being discipled good enough." It wrecks you.  
  
Justin Perdue: Jimmy, to that point, I'm tracking with you a hundred percent. I used to live that way, too, and I still fight this. Whenever I know that I'm struggling or sinning in certain ways, I will then fall back into this pattern of feeling essentially like I need to do penance. Like I need to demonstrate to God that I'm sincere. Like I need to, in one sense, throw my stick in the fire and rededicate and get serious about this. Because it's just how we've been conditioned. It's been spoken over us so much and we've been steeped in it, so many of us, for so long. It's like what we've said so many times: pietism and this kind of thinking dies a very slow and painful death in all of us, including the three hosts around this microphone, because it's very natural. We naturally assume that God deals with us on the basis of our merit, and that He is like us in that how we're doing affects how He feels about us. He's not like us in that regard.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Historically speaking, the reason this podcast exists is because of a podcast that came out a while ago on pietism. When the priority of the Christian life is sanctification—or let me just put it this way: when the theological depth is always studying, focusing on what I have to do for God, and that becomes the focus of everything you read, say, do, tweet, meme, or whatever, you are going to lose the priority and you're going to lose the clarity of the gospel.  
  
I will argue, and I believe this with all my heart, that the primary message of the Bible, around 95% of all that is written, is the good news of how God saved sinners. That's what it's about. And then he says, "Oh, by the way, while you wait for me to come back, I need you to act like this." But what do we do? We prioritize that 5%. We take that 5% and we make it the thing that we focus on and we just ignore 95% of the Bible.  
  
Justin Perdue: We distort that 5% into it being all about our personal disciplines, when in reality, the vast majority of that 5% is love each other.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And this is why I mentioned this: when you don't focus on the gospel when Paul says, "I want to make nothing known among you, except for Christ and him crucified," and then I hear the pietist tell me, "Jon, there's more to the Bible than the gospel," I'm like, "What are you talking about?" if you don't have the gospel, you don't have life. This is Jesus' own words. Yet, we want to emphasize what we do for God, and God's book is emphasizing what God has done for us. This is why Theocast exists, this is why we, as pastors, we stand up in the pulpit to clarify Jesus every week because our hearts naturally turn away from him. We pile on Law, and we pile on sin. The preaching of God's Word in communion is what brings us that focal point and clarity every single week, because the priority is the gospel and nothing else.  
  
Now, hopefully, you understand what we mean by gospel. It's not what you're doing for God; it's what God has done for you.  
  
Justin Perdue: This has been a good conversation, brothers. I've enjoyed it. I've been encouraged. We hope that you, the listener, have been encouraged and helped by this as well.  
  
Once again, we're thankful for you and your partnership with us. We pray that you would continue to support Theocast and the ministry that we aim and hope to do here, by the grace of God. If you're a pastor and you're listening to this, consider putting Theocast on your church's missions budget. We, unashamedly, would say this is a good ministry to invest your dollars in and partner with us in any way that you see fit. We're grateful for you.  
  
Continue to pray for us as we aim to herald Jesus Christ and his finished work in our place, which is the only source of our peace and rest. We will have another one of these conversations, God-willing, again next week. Who knows what it's going to be about? You can look forward to that and speak with you soon.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel/)

---

### Is Christ-Centered Preaching Dangerous? (Transcript)

*Published: January 27, 2021 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous-transcript-1*
*Tags: Gospel*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel/)**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we're going to talk about what is and is not the gospel. There are a number of things that are talked about in the church today that are offered essentially as the good news of Jesus Christ, but they are not. These things would include repentance, faith, obedience, discipleship, and surrender all to Christ, just to name a few. We're going to talk about each of these, and then seek to clarify what exactly is the good news of Jesus Christ for sinners. We hope this is encouraging. We hope it's helpful and clarifying. Stay tuned.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The next two episodes are going to be very passionate. I can't ever think when we're not passionate, but it always just feels passionate. But today is definitely one of those ones that you walk in and you drop this comment on any of these pastors and we are going to have some thoughts, and they are not going to be lighthearted. They're going to be pretty heavy.  
  
So today we're going to talk about what we pile onto the gospel and we titled it _What Is Not the Gospel_. You would think, "Is that really necessary?" It's almost like saying, "What is the moon? What is not the moon? What is the sun and what is not the sun?" You would think it's obvious, but unfortunately, it's not. It's not obvious in our day and age because there's been so much clutter that has been put on top of the gospel. So, today what we're going to try and do is, as you do in wrestling, we're going to go and fight up, break up the fight, and pull everybody off and clarify here.  
  
According to Paul, he says in 1 Corinthians that the gospel is the power of God. The gospel is the power of God in that if you are going to see God's power, you have to know what the gospel is. Many people don't experience the joy of resting in Christ and really see God's power at work because the gospel they're believing in is confused, diluted, it's grayed out at points, and most people can't find rest because they are not assured by whatever gospel it is that they are believing in.  
  
We're going to go through a list of things that have been piled on top of the gospel. And then at the end, we're going to talk to you about, clarify, protect, and put a fence around what is the gospel. Justin, let's start with one of the most popular today, and often the most confusing, of what people assume the gospel to be—but it's not.  
  
Justin Perdue: The first thing that we want to start with in terms of what the gospel is not is repentance. You will hear many people today say things kind of like this: that the good news is that we repent of sin and thereby are saved, that repentance is the good news, repent and believe and things will go well for you. We're here today to clarify a number of things, including this one, that repentance itself is not the good news. Repentance is something that happens to us. Repentance, biblically speaking, is a change of mind about a number of things: a change of mind about God and what He requires, a change of mind about ourselves and our position before God, a change of mind about Christ and what he has done for us. But repentance itself is not the good news. You hear a lot of language in many contexts—Calvinistic and otherwise—that will exalt repentance to this place of preeminence where this is what the Christian life is. Like to be a Christian is to repent. It is so synthesized and woven into the fabric of what the gospel even is that it's at best confusing, at worst damning.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You hear verses all the time saying, "Repent, repent." The Bible literally says, "Repent and believe, and you will be forgiven of your sins." And I would also say, "Repent and be baptized" is what it says as well.  
  
We have to look at all of Scripture when it comes down to a specific area. In certain contexts when it says repent and believe, he's talking about those who are trusting in the Law for their salvation versus trusting in the person of Jesus standing in front of them—like God or salvation in the flesh standing in front of them. You have to understand that the difference is don't believe in your own works for salvation; believe in Christ's works for salvation.  
  
But even that, in order to believe in Christ, it doesn't matter if you're turning from sin or turning from another false belief which is sinful. You can't do that on your own. What we would say is systematic theology here is very important because the Bible, the way in which it is written and designed, you have to look at all of Scripture in all of context. When someone quotes a verse and says, "This is what the Bible says so I'm just going to believe it," you, brothers, are changing the gospel.  
  
Justin Perdue: A really quick interjection by way of clarification: when we're talking about the gospel or the good news, what we mean by that—and we're going to be clear about that later—is the good news is the thing that saves you. The good news is the thing that saves sinners from their sin and reconciles us to a holy God. Repentance is not that thing. Repentance itself does not save people.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If the listener has not read the book _The Whole Christ_ by Sinclair Ferguson, may I recommend that to you? Because in that book, the author, Sinclair Ferguson, Scottish Presbyterian, he is essentially talking about this very thing. This is a controversy called the Marrow Controversy that went on centuries ago that surrounded this very issue. Does somebody need to forsake sin in order to come to Christ? I can just hear the alarm bells going off in people's minds, but essentially what it centered on was almost like this chicken and egg analogy: what comes first—is it God's grace or is it our repentance? Which of these comes first?  
  
I know this is heavily nuanced, and so we need to be pretty careful in how we're speaking about this, but often I think people believe functionally that it is our work, our repentance, our turning from sin that generates God's love, affection, and grace for us. What we are trying to say is that is actually the other way around: that it is God's grace toward us, it is God's work via the Holy Spirit, via the preaching of the good news about Jesus Christ to us, that generates repentance as a grace in the work or in the life of the believer.  
  
Justin Perdue: Is there anything that we need to do in order to come to Christ? The answer to that question is no.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Going back to something that Jimmy said a couple of weeks ago on a podcast on pietism, God has done His part and basically He has presented you the goods, and now basically, if you want them, you've got to clean up your life and come get them. If we're going to change the word, repentance is to clean up your life and come get Jesus and you can be saved. That is not good news. That's really bad news. Because in order to clean yourself up to make yourself acceptable, you have to pay for your sins. You can't do that. To be clear, we have to be careful when we take the Bible literally—you're taking a phrase literally out of its context of the whole Bible. Because if you look at what all of Scripture has to say, repentance is absolutely part of the Christian life, but it's what comes when the Spirit does that to you, that God repents you. You can absolutely combine those together: if you believe in Christ, you're going to repent. So, repent and believe is a true statement, but you have to understand it in its context. But when you pile repentance on before—a change of heart and the Spirit coming in and regenerating—if you require it beforehand, you are saying there is a position you must take in order to receive grace. Therefore, grace only meets you at a certain point.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Chad Bird in his book—I believe it's _Night Driving_—he talks about how God repents us, that God is the one that is doing the work in our lives in order for this to come to fruition. If you think about, specifically, how Ephesians 2 speaks of the person who does not yet know Christ, that they are spiritually dead, that their spiritual faculties have been so deeply affected by sin and the fall, to require that kind of person to do some sort of repenting in order that God's grace would be placed upon them is absurd. We don't ask dead people to do anything. So, repentance is a fruit of God's work via the Holy Spirit by the preaching of the gospel in the life of a believer. I know that might be shocking for some people to hear, but repentance is a fruit.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To add to that, Jimmy, can I say that we cannot fall into the ditch of the either-or? "Well, you guys are saying repentance isn't necessary." That is ridiculous. That is not what we're saying. It's just that you've got to get the order correct: Christ brings us to life and we repent.  
  
Justin Perdue: Repentance, without doubt, will be there. At the same time, it is not the gospel.  
  
This next one is going to perhaps be even more controversial. Not only is repentance not the gospel, but faith is not the gospel. This is confusing. So, the Scripture will use the phrase, "We're saved, not by works, we're saved by faith." But what the apostle Paul, in that instance, does not mean is that faith in and of itself saves. Faith in and of itself has never saved anybody, and it never will. We are saved by the object of our faith, who is Jesus Christ. Faith is the means through which the work and merit of Christ are applied to us.  
  
Just to be really clear to you on faith and repentance, this seems like a reasonable time to say this: I think a lot of times, faith and repentance are pulled apart in the ways that people talk about them in the church. It's like they can exist independently and biblically. I just don't think that's true. If we understand the definition of repentance like we've been framing it—it's a change of mind about these various things—it's quite clear that repentance and faith go together. Both of them are produced by the work of God in us. Both of them are a result of the grace of God and the fruit of the new birth that God alone causes in us as we behold Christ. So, I think we do bad things, and this is probably another podcast for another day, when we separate those two: repentance and faith.  
  
This is how repentance, in particular, ends up sounding like a work that we need to do when in reality, repentance and faith go together and they're opposite sides of the same coin, but neither of them are the good news.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something I say to our church repeatedly—and they might be getting tired of it by now—but we are never saved by the quality of our faith, but we are always saved by the object of our faith, which is Jesus Christ.  
  
Often, when we read the New Testament and we look at the people that believed in Christ and believed in Christ, we want to... Hebrews 11 says their faith is commended. We often associate that this person is a man of strong faith, or this woman has a strong faith. I understand what people are trying to say there, that their life is a model for perhaps younger Christians to follow. But at the end of the day, you look at Hebrews 11, and the people that are commended for their faith committed some pretty horrible sins and had some pretty atrocious decisions littered throughout their life.  
  
The object of our faith is always Jesus Christ. We are not saved by our strong faith, we are saved by a strong Savior in whom our faith is in. To say that the gospel is faith, that you just believe—that's actually not good news. The good news has to be about someone to believe in, which is Jesus Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If I were to tell you that we all believe you have to drink water—there are three things you need in order to live: you got to drink, you got to eat, and you got to sleep. If you remove one of those, you're going to die. Period. If you say, "I believe that water will keep me alive." Believing in the water won't keep you alive. The water itself has to keep you alive, but believing in the water is not going to do it. You actually have to put your faith in something that actually is going to accomplish the thing that you said, and then it has to do it.  
  
What we're trying to separate is that some people just talk about finding their assurance in their faith. As Jimmy said earlier, your faith will be weak at times, and your faith can be strong at times. When someone describes to me a strong Christian, I think of someone who is really trusting in Christ and nothing else—that, to me, is a strong Christian, versus someone who is weak in faith meaning that there's some doubt, they're wavering, their faith in the substance of Christ—our object—is not very strong. The illustration I've used a thousand times is my dear mother-in-law is just terrified to fly. She's afraid she's going to fall. Her faith is really weak. So, if I'm sitting next to my mother-in-law in a plane and we're flying, and we fly safely, we get from point A to point B, was her safety called into question based upon her faith in that plane? No, our faith did not get us from point A to point B, the plane did—and that's gospel. The gospel is Jesus Christ saving sinners, not Jesus Christ looking to someone's faith saying, "Oh, your faith is strong, therefore you are saved," or, "Because you have faith, therefore you are saved." It sounds like we're splitting hairs, but this is so important because people often lose heart because they have weak faith. A weak faith is not a weak Savior—that just means that your heart needs to be renewed in Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: We've already talked about repentance, we've talked about faith. The next thing that is not the gospel is obedience. Sometimes people will look at the words of Christ like, "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments." Language like that the apostles will even use. John uses language like that at points: to love God is to essentially do what He says. So, people will talk about obedience being the good news, hitching my wagon to obedience, and those kinds of things. Even the transformation of life falls under this heading, too. The transformation of our lives is not the good news. The fact that I'm not like I used to be is not the gospel.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We like to use the phrase—even though I don't think Jon likes it anymore—to kind of poke them in the eye.  
  
Justin Perdue: Graciously.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There is this trend within greater evangelicalism. It's good hearted. I don't want to impugn people's motives and so on and so forth, but there is this trend within greater evangelicalism to typically, if it's a Credo-Baptistic church, to share their testimony before they are baptized. I'm all for hearing people's stories of how God has worked in their life, but if you notice the common thread in the way that modern Christianity has framed people and taught people how to share their testimonies, what is it that they are constantly pointing to? They're pointing to, "I used to do this. I used to be addicted to this. I used to struggle with this. But now I don't and now I'd like to go under the water." As if that is the end game.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The proof of their salvation is the evidence of some kind of change.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I haven't seen a video like this in a while, but I have seen it before, where essentially it's like the cardboard testimonies—I feel like I'm just offending people left and right now, I'm really sorry -where they would hold up the cardboard sign and say, "I used to be this," and they flip it over and they'd say, "But now..." Well, that's great. But here's the problem in that: if that is the gospel we are sharing, we are in essence making a promise to people that if you believe in Jesus, you will no longer struggle with this, which may or may not be the case—and that's not good news.  
  
Justin Perdue: The thing that communicates in part to this transformation of life idea, for example, what we're saying, "I used to be an alcoholic and now I'm not, and I'm coming to Christ," or, "I used to abuse substances, and now I don't and I'm coming to Christ," or, "I used to be this and now I'm not, and I'm coming to Christ," you realize there are many different belief systems and programs that exist in the world where people give the exact same testimony. There is nothing distinctly Christian about that. This is just one example of so many things in the church, in the evangelical church anyway, where there are good things talked about but you don't need Jesus for them. You don't have to have Christ for them because you could go about it some other way and transform your life. There are people who don't believe in Christ at all, and are pagan in that sense of the word, whose lives have been changed by this or that discipline or this or that thought process or whatever it may be. You don't need Jesus to get off drugs. You don't need Jesus to quit drinking. You don't need Jesus to stop being a serial womanizer and be a good husband. That sounds absolutely controversial to say, but you need Jesus to save you from your sins and give you righteousness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: My children were baptized recently—my 12-year-old daughter. In our church, we give people the opportunity to speak if they would like to say something to the congregation for the encouragement of the hearer. We give them the opportunity to do that. So, my 12-year-old daughter wrote out something and it was great. We've had people who have come from pretty rough backgrounds whom you would hear their testimony and it's unbelievable to see what God has done saving them. I remember when my daughter came to me and she said, "Dad, I think I really want to be baptized," because it's something we explain every single week with communion, the sacraments. Then she goes, "But I just don't have a..." and she was trying to describe a transition moment to tell people about. Six months of me really encouraging her and talking with her to make sure she understood that you aren't saved because you've had a transition moment. Like, "I used to really get upset at my brother and now I don't anymore." So, when she got up there and she read her testimony, she literally said, " I always thought I had to have this story, and I'm reminded that without God and Christ..." and she explained the gospel. She literally said, "I'm a sinner and I'm standing in this water because I'm a sinner who was saved by Jesus."  
  
Justin Perdue: God gave her baptism so that she now has that story where she can look back and say, "I was baptized into Christ Jesus, and I'm united to him, and I'm his."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I once was dry, but now I'm wet. That's it.  
  
Here's the crazy thing. I've said this before, and I've prayed this before publicly. I don't think I've ever received more pushback for a prayer than what I'm about to say, where I have prayed for the children of our church. I have prayed, "God, we ask in your grace and by your favor that our children would have particularly boring testimonies." People give me all sorts of pushback because they want their kids' testimonies to be exciting. If in 20 years, my Charlie, my Owen, and my Nora can say, "Lord, we can't remember a time that we didn't know or trust in you," then praise God. I'll chalk that up as a win.  
  
Justin Perdue: Not only that. One, I don't remember a time I wasn't meaning to trust Christ, and two, I remember my baptism.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And that's decisionalism. What you're getting into is that you have decided to follow Jesus. The sinner's prayer probably falls into this. A lot of people who grew up with a Baptist background are pointed to deciding to follow Jesus and praying the sinner's prayer. I'm with Jimmy. My kids—16, 14, 12, and 5-years-old—my oldest three can't tell you when they said a prayer. We just don't lead our kids in that way. They hear the gospel every single week. What really forces my children early on in their ages to deal with their salvation is that they saw communion happening every week, and we fix the Table and we let people know to come to the Table and receive such mercy, kindness, grace, and strength from the Father. You have to be a family member. This is a family gathering. My kids would ask, "Dad, why am I not taking communion?" It was early on. We had this opportunity to share the gospel with them over and over again. Eventually the kids were like, "I believe. When can I participate?" "Well, you need to be baptized."  
  
But the point of it is I didn't walk them through a prayer and ask, "Are you deciding to follow Jesus?" I can tell you my kids have been hearing the gospel from their birth because I've been sharing it with them, and they're not going to have this transition moment. As a matter of fact, my kids could fall into deep sin. We know that to be true according to Christianity. The sinner's prayer is really dangerous and it's not the gospel. This is one of the things that we pile on to the gospel. The sinner's prayer is not the gospel. I can't tell you how many people I know who come and talk to me and say, "I know I'm a Christian because I said a prayer." It's really sad. It's heartbreaking because again, that's another way of saying my faith is in the statement I said.  
  
Justin Perdue: They're effectively saying that the sinner's prayer saved them; it is the thing that saved them and reconciled them to God.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: People want to get crazy. They look at us like we're nuts when we talk about the sacraments in that way, that God communicates grace. They claim it's like mysticism, etc. Then all of a sudden, the sinner's prayer—that's where it's at.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I understand why people want that. It's like this one-and-done mentality where I want to know that I did what was required in order to get in. What's the secret passcode? I've got it. I'm in. That's dangerous because, again, you're pointing to something you did, not what Christ has done. You are not saved because you prayed a prayer. You were saved because Christ saved sinners. That's really hard to wrap people's minds around.  
  
All right, I'm going to go to another one. You guys ready for this? We're running out of time. So, you're going to just have to do your best on this: discipleship. Discipleship is not the gospel.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Here's the thing. "You might believe in Jesus, but you just don't take the Christian life very seriously."  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's not what saves you.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: "You're a nominal Christian. You don't really love Jesus."  
  
Justin Perdue: You're right. People there are separating faith in Christ and discipleship as though those are two different things, that a person could, in theory, believe in Jesus and not then be a disciple. I'm trying to figure out where in the world you have those categories biblically as though they're distinct things, because the New Testament clearly speaks that to believe in Christ is to be a disciple, and that every Christian is a disciple.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think we confuse discipleship with mentorship and apprenticeship. We think to be a disciple means that I get coffee with somebody once a week and share my deepest, darkest sins, and when I think I'm going to stop, and that is discipleship. When in reality, when you live and participate within the greater life of the church, your pastor, every time he preaches, is discipling you. When you go to church and you live life with people, and you need to forgive them and they need to forgive you, and you need to have hard conversations, and you need to weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice, that is discipleship.  
  
People want to pigeonhole discipleship to be mentorship and I'm all for mentorship. I'm a young guy, and the two guys that I'm looking at on the screen right now, these two guys help mentor me and they help disciple me. But at the same time, in the same way, there are people within my church that I wouldn't consider to be my mentor but they disciple me in me living life with them.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's a cultural word that we often get very confused and we have piled on. We have turned discipleship into something that is just biblically not there. We assume discipleship is to be one of the 12—and Jesus had more than 12 disciples. That's the confusing part that people don't understand. Even when he says go out into all the world and make disciples, the concept back then was a follower of one's teaching. You were identified as a follower of a specific teacher, and you are being disciplined by him. You are embracing his teaching, embracing his instruction.  
  
What people assume that means, and going back to what Jimmy was saying, is we take it to the next level: discipleship is you get in the gate as a Christian, and then you become the real deal when you're a disciple. If you believe the gospel, you are a follower of the teachings of Christ. Therefore, you're a disciple. Like you said, there's, there's not two paths.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's almost framed like those who "simply believe in Jesus," some of them will be saved, but not all of them—but the disciples will be saved. Those who are really serious, the disciples, all of them will be saved without fail. But those who simply believe in Jesus, many of them will be lost. It really is unhelpful because then it comes across sounding like discipleship is what makes one a genuine believer as opposed to trusting in Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The confusion came in when they were finding their identity in who they were being discipled by. Culturally speaking, this is a thing. It's a thing to follow someone and say, "I am of this person." But it's confusing to assume that it's this next step level or that real assurance is found by being a disciple of Jesus, and real discipleship is forsaking all, which I think is what we're getting into.  
  
Justin Perdue: Absolutely. One very quick clarifying remark. You'll notice that a number of these things that we've mentioned already are what we might call outflows of the gospel or implications of the gospel, but they are not the gospel itself. Faith, repentance, obedience, discipleship, etc. flow out of the gospel and come from it, but they are not the gospel itself, and that distinction makes all the difference.  
  
This last one that we want to talk about also may offend some. I think it's helpful, though, for us to draw this one into the light because many of us have heard this before, and it is frankly a form of slavery and bondage, and it is a damning reality.  
  
Many people will say to surrender all to Jesus is the good news. At the risk of sounding like a shock jock, if to surrender all to Christ is the gospel, then we are all damned. Because none of us have ever done it. That's the point of the rich young ruler. When Jesus asks him to prove his love to God and neighbor, he can't do it. That's what Christ asks him: prove your love for God and your love for neighbor by selling your stuff and following me and the man walks away dejected.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I've said this to my church last week that as you continue living the everyday Christian life, every single day, what you are going to find is that there is another deep recess and another dark corner of your heart that you are unaware of, or you could say an area that you have not surrendered to Christ. However, the good news of the gospel is that in the same way that our wickedness and our sin goes far deeper into our hearts than we could ever possibly imagine, god's grace and Jesus's righteousness also goes down into those deep places. It has to be that way because otherwise, we are condemned. Because if my salvation is banked on the fact of the quality of me surrendering all to Jesus, or treasuring Jesus above all, or loving Jesus more than I love this, my goodness; that just denies the whole _simul justus et peccator_. That denies that I am both simultaneously saint and sinner. This is Roman 7\. The good news of Romans 7 is Romans 8:1: that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say there's a confusion here and I'm going to make a statement. If this is new to you, go back into our episodes. They're all available. Go find the Law-gospel podcasts. But this is a confusion of the Law and the gospel. A total surrender to God is impossible.  
  
When Jesus says, "Unless you forsake your father and mother, your wife, your siblings and follow me, you cannot be my disciple." Every person should hear that and say, "Then no one can be Jesus' disciples." That's what you should hear, but it's not. What you hear is, "Oh man, I need to work on that." You just lowered what Jesus said. Jesus didn't make it relatively; he says you have to. Unless you sell everything.  
  
What we don't understand is that when Jesus receives the question, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?", the inheritance is standing in front of you. Your path to inheritance is standing in front of you, and then you ask the man what you must do. He says, "Well, if you want to know what you have to do, I'll tell you what you have to do. But if you want to know how you get eternal life, come to me." That's Law versus the gospel. The gospel is faith in Jesus, the Law is to obey and do something to receive. That's Law. When you say to me that a total surrender is how you receive salvation, you should walk away completely devastated because there is no one in the history of the world who fully surrendered themselves to the Father, except for Jesus.  
  
Justin Perdue: We're about to pivot briefly to talk about what the gospel is. I want to illustrate the fact that this conversation we're having is important. I put up a post months ago on social media about how emphasizing justification, emphasizing God's declaration of us, that we're righteous in His Son, actually leads to sanctification, growth, holiness, and maturity in Christ. That was very controversial for many people. To emphasize our justification leading to our sanctification, people reacted, "No way. In order to grow in the faith, we need to emphasize sanctification." This was the response of some people: Romans 12 is just as much a part of the gospel as Romans 3.  
  
Romans 12 is a number of exhortations that Paul gives that are great in terms of how Christians are to live together in the church. Every man around these microphones would uphold all of those exhortations from Romans 12\. But to say that those exhortations are just as much a part of the gospel as the Romans 3 content, where the righteousness of God has now been revealed apart from the Law for all those who have faith in Christ, and the righteousness of God has been given as a gift to those who believe in Jesus, that God might be just and the justifier of those who have faith in Christ. To say that those are equally the gospel, first of all, is flat out insane. It is not good news in the slightest, because if it's true, then heaven will be empty. No one will be there because none of us can ever do these things well enough to earn God's favor and to be then declared righteous on the basis of what we do or how well we perform.  
  
This is the kind of confusion that exists out there because of some of the teaching that's out there in the Evangelical church. That's why this conversation, like Jon said at the beginning, may seem like, "Duh, we know what the gospel is." Maybe we do, but there is all this clutter and confusion that's been thrown on top of it, and saints are harmed as a result.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is almost like saying maintaining your house is how you gain your house. You don't maintain a house so you can buy it. You buy the house and then part of owning a house is to maintain it. This is what we do is salvation. It's like somehow the maintenance plan is the gaining plan. No, Christ gives us our salvation. Then he says there are some things that you're going to do now that you're a child.  
  
The gospel is done. Everything about the good news of the gospel is done. There's no potentiality. There's no future. I would say the good news is history because it's telling you the facts, not the potential. The facts are what Christ has done on your behalf for you. When Jesus says it is finished, he means he finished the work required so that all sinners can be saved through him. This is the difference between good news: it's not potential, it's done. It's not do, it's done.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: This is classic Luther. This is the Heidelberg Disputation. The Law says "do this", and it is never done; the gospel says "believe this" and everything is already done. The gospel is declarative. It's objective. It's outside of us. In its original context, the word _euangelion_, Greek, where we get the word "gospel" meaning good news, as a military term. If a King won a battle, he would send a runner back to the city to say _euangelion_ or good news. The victory has been achieved. When we declare the gospel, that's what we are declaring. We are declaring that the victory over sin and death has been achieved. Believe, trust, and rest in that reality.  
  
Justin Perdue: Receive what has been done for you on your behalf. You, brothers, are both saying wonderful things. The gospel is objective; it's outside of us. It's not affected by anything that we think, feel, or do. It's declarative. It's done. The work of Christ is finished. It's news, it's facts, it's history. We should actually listen to ourselves when we call the gospel the good news. That ought to instruct us on how to present it. All we're doing is heralding stuff that's happened and stuff in particular that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, has done. Then all that is left for us to do is to receive his work, his merit, and his righteousness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Can I say that sometimes when I hear someone give the gospel, I get done listening and I go, "There is nothing good about what you just said." That is not good news.  
  
Justin Perdue: Basically, you gave me no news at all. You gave me a bunch of instructions, but you didn't tell me anything that's actually been done.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Then you gave me a contract, is what you gave me. It's contractual.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Thanks for the list.  
  
Justin Perdue: The last thing I'll say as a parting shot across the bow, as we make our way over to the members' podcast, is you will also hear a lot of language in the church these days about how we need to live the gospel, or we need to do the gospel in the church. Again, this is a symptom of a larger systemic problem. We're here to say that there's one person who has ever done the gospel and his name is Jesus, and we trust and rest in him. There's nothing left to do. We receive what's been done. Christ is our righteousness, he is our hope and stay in the ground of our assurance and peace before God today and forever.  
  
So, now we're going to transition into our members' podcast. What we're going to do over there is apply some of the things that we've been talking about. We said a lot really quickly and you might be feeling a little bit of that fire hose effect. We're going to marinate on this a little bit, the three of us, and give you some handles. Hopefully we'll flesh this out and unpack this for you in ways that will be helpful and encouraging as you think about the gospel—what it is, what it isn't, and what that means, frankly, for your Christian life in the local church.  
  
If you would like to listen in on this conversation that we're about to have, and you don't quite know what the members' podcast is, you can find more information about how you can partner with our ministry and get access to this content over at our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com.  
  
We look forward to speaking with many of you in just a moment in the members' area. We look forward to having another conversation with all of you.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-what-is-and-is-not-the-gospel/)

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### MEMBERS: Is Christ-Centered Preaching Dangerous? (Transcript)

*Published: January 20, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous-transcript*
*Tags: Christ Centered Preaching, preaching, Redemptive Historical*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast. As always, Justin and I are about to turn up the volume. We are thankful to and love all of our supporters. Some of you have been supporting us for almost three years. The encouragement is unbelievable. On top of your support, we're receiving more donations. The membership podcast helps us get from month to month. That covers most of our expenses—not all of them. The additional book sales and donations help with that as the membership grows and so will our opportunities to do more. If you were to sit down and listen to our vision, which one day we might just give it to you, what we would love to see happen for Theocast... a lot of it is money. Money is our issue; it's not our capacities. We have plenty to do and provide, but we just don't have enough money to get it to you. So thank you for your support right now. The more money comes in, the more we're going to keep providing more education, more books, a conference. I know people want a conference; we want one, too.  
  
Anyway, let's get to what the people really want to hear. I find this type of article very unhelpful, and it is what Theocast has been trying to point out for a long time. Two things: this is pietism, and pietism is the result of people who are trying to curb the moral behavior of people because one, I think they have an unbiblical perspective of Christianity. They say a Christian should act like this, and then they provide a list that the Bible never provides. That's one. Two, they're going after the lazy Christian, the nominal Christian, the Christian who isn't taking God very seriously at His word. Their concern is if you preach this way, then you will not encourage people to live holy lives. I would say Piper is guilty of this, The Masters Seminary, John MacArthur, and even this article. I know people are about to fall off of whatever they're sitting in or walking on.  
  
Justin, what do I mean? The reason behind this article is that they're afraid that people aren't going to take the holiness and their responsibility seriously.  
  
Justin Perdue: We talk about pietism a lot in that the underlying assumption underneath is that the emphasis in the Christian life needs to be imperative in exhortation to the saints. This is because what really matters in the Christian life is the life of the Christian: how we are doing, how we're performing, how we're feeling, what we're thinking. Again, to be very clear, Jon and I do not disagree that those things matter. Obedience is good. We want to be thinking well. We want our affections for Christ and for our brothers and sisters to be stirred and all of those things. We've even said this on recent podcasts: we agree that we should be improving, but the question is how did those things really happen? How is it that we grow in the faith? I think that the assumption amongst pietists is that the way that you grow, the way that you're sanctified, is by talking about and emphasizing sanctification all the time, and by putting the onus on the Christian. We have a different perspective on that.  
  
The flip side of the coin is that what we need to be doing in the church, especially in our modern evangelical context, is we need to be smoking out in the fakers because they are just fakers aplenty all over the place. Because of revivalism, because of easy believism, because of the sinner's prayer, and all of these things where people have been irresponsible in how they have administered the Word of God and the sacraments, we now need to take it upon ourselves to, like I said, smoke out the fakers, and to expose the nominal and shake them up a little bit.  
  
One thought is I think there have always been people associated with the church who are Christians in name only. There have always been people who are associated with the church who are not really believers. The apostle Paul speaks to this. John speaks to this. The New Testament is not silent on these matters. We alluded to this at the end of the regular podcast: what is it that the apostles come in with when they're going to speak to apathy or they're going to speak to nominalism where there is this Christian-in-name-only thing. How do they handle it?  
  
We would say that first and foremost, what they do is they come in with clarity on the gospel. They come in with clarity on union with Christ, then they come in and actually speak to the redeemed and understand that those who are not actually saints will overhear it. That's how they go about doing it. They trust the Lord to use those means.  
  
Of course, we speak to sin. If I may just say this really quickly, one issue that I have and something I take exception to is the general thought that redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching soft pedals sin—and it's just the furthest thing from the truth. We are aiming to speak to the depth of our depravity, the depth of our need, and the depth of our desperation because sin is far worse than we think—and frankly, we're all worse than we think. So we're trying to expose that and drive people to Christ. We're aiming to evoke repentance in people as we preach the Law rightly and as we exhort the saints to trust in Christ alone. That's always in our mind. Then underneath all those things, we're happy to talk with folks about how—again, the third use of the Law—these things are terrible for your life so don't do them, God says they're bad so don't do them, this is harmful to others so don't do them, these things are good so you should pursue them, etc. Sometimes, I struggle with this whole thing and I grow weary of the conversation, and then at other times I'm indignant. Just being honest.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is why we do this: to help bring some clarity. I know there are a lot of pastors who listen. We have a great pastors group on our Facebook group that we interact with and I love it.  
  
A couple of things. Justin goes back to a podcast we did a couple of weeks ago on spiritual disciplines. When you think the responsibility of the individual listening to your sermon is self-sanctification, and the purpose of morality is to clarify their standing before God and prove that they're a believer to God and others, and that the whole entire Christian life is basically to uphold your assurance by self-sanctification and morality, then yes, your sermons are going to be driven by that. I would argue that if you hold to self-sanctification, and you hold to morality as the way in which you find assurance, your sermons are going to be driven not by the text, you're going to exposit that upon each other because you aren't actually allowing the text to say what it is saying. You're saying, "Well, I got to find some way to get people to assure themselves by obeying God." I'm sorry but that's just not it. When Piper says something like, "Men hover around over the text but never deal with it," I just take great offense to that because if there's anyone hovering something over the text, it's your idea that the obedience or the morality of a believer upholds their assurance.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or Christian hedonism, dare I say. We're talking about imposing things on the text. I know Piper, again, is going to argue that he's getting these things from the text and to some extent, that's fine, but it's the same way that we would say the redemptive-historical framework, covenant theology, the Law-gospel distinction—these things flow up and come up out of the text. We're not imposing them down upon the text.  
  
What I want to say to that whole argument is the implication is if you preach in this way—redemptive-historical, Law-gospel, Christ-centered, all this stuff—if you preach in this way, you're going to hover over the text and not deal with the words, phrases, sentences, and the paragraphs, which is ridiculous. Then also, you're not going to preach the point of that passage. You're going to usurp it for your own ends—to which I'm going to say that the last time I checked, you would actually be irresponsible to preach a text as though we don't understand the grand context in which that passage fits. If you come to a text and preach it apart from the point of the entire biblical witness, you are irresponsible. So it really irks me when guys start throwing charges of irresponsibility at redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching. You're preaching sermons that hardly sound Christian. I'm not trying to be cruel here, but you're saying a lot of great things about the passage, but you haven't given people Christ yet and you're a half hour in. What in the world are we doing? It irks me to some extent, Jon, and even to the point that you made just a minute ago on so much of the emphasis—my wife and I talk about this all the time—so much of the emphasis in evangelicalism and in the Calvingelical world is on proving yourself, proving your mettle, proving that you're legit.  
  
We're very clear: God elects people unto salvation; we could never produce this, we could never do this, there's nothing in us that makes us worthy. But then we come in the back door and say, "Now you better get to work so that you prove that you're legit," which to me is the worst sort of slavery because you're telling people on the frontend you can't do anything, but then on the backend you tell them they better do something because if they don't, then they're in trouble.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's like a timeshare pitch.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's really tough. You're exactly right that there's this whole—dare I say this—there's a hermeneutic of proving yourself that is laid down upon every passage of Scripture. That is not helpful when you do; you're reading things into the texts that aren't there: prove yourself, do this. It's not good.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The two ordinances given to you by Christ, the two things we must practice week in and week out, are the Lord's Table and baptism. Both of those are pointing to something that has been done for us; it is pointing us back to Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's pointing us to Christ and God's faithfulness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Obviously, we are to preach God's Word and as we preach God's Word, why would that be so disconnected from the other means by which God has given the church to strengthen and grow them? This is why Paul says—and I can't stop saying this because it's just too important—Paul says that when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love. The application there—what does Paul start with? The first three chapters are a firm grasp of the gospel. He spends three chapters, and then in chapter four he says, "Now walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called." The application absolutely comes in and that application, which is interesting, is the purpose of morality. We think you should be moral but the purpose of your morality is not to secure your relationship with God, it's for the betterment of the church that the church might sanctify itself. What I struggle with is that biblical theology leads you to trust in Christ, and those who trust in Christ are then led to love and help others trust in Christ. What I hear a moral preaching is you need to improve yourself and you need to sanctify yourself, otherwise else beware, you lazy Christians, you useless Christians.  
  
Justin Perdue: Of course, the implication, to be fair, is that as you improve, you'll be of more benefit to others. But I think for us, what we want to say is let's put the emphasis where the Scripture puts the emphasis. The Scripture puts the emphasis in trusting in the Lord Jesus, and in your life of giving yourself away, laying yourself down in love and service to your brothers and sisters. So let's just talk that way. Let's not confuse this and clutter it up.  
  
Maybe last comment here because I know we're running short on time. With respect to the article itself and articles like it, but this one in particular about redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching, we kept asking who are in the crosshairs here. I have to assume that what's in the crosshairs is some sort of reductionistic, watered down version of the worst Tullian Tchividjian sermon ever preached. I have to assume that's what it is, where literally every week, it's just this: here's what God requires, we can't do it, Jesus did it, trust Christ, here's where the Old Testament says Christ fulfilled it, trust Christ. Literally, that's all we say. I have to assume that's what is in the crosshairs, to which I say that's a caricature and a straw man of redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching. It's just never wise or helpful in any way to argue against a straw man. You don't do that. You don't argue against the caricature of another position. You want to make sure that you're representing it as well as you possibly can.  
  
In fairness to Sam, who wrote the article, I understand that this is not a dissertation. It's not a research paper where he's going to be writing 40, 50, 150 pages so he can fully flush everything out. But at the same time, there might be more nuance on the front that it may have been helpful to say, "I'm all for redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching. I think we need more of it in the evangelical world. Here are all the things that I agree with that I think are great, and here is what I'm speaking to—some really extreme outliers. Here's an arrow that I just want us to be aware of that this actually exists and we don't want to go there." Then I've got no issues. I've got no issue with the article if we nuance it that way—though I may take some exception to certain things said underneath each of the headings. I don't think the article wholesale would land on me the way that it does in its current format.  
  
For me, I feel the need to now come in and defend redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching, which is sort of what we've done today. He is basically depicting our position in as terrible of a way as possible, and now we need to come in and say his critiques are against something, but they're not really critiques of us because we don't even understand what you're talking about to be legitimate preaching in the first place.  
  
Anyway, I don't know. I can ramble and rant for a while, but I think this article falls in the category of unhelpful because it really does not clear up much. If anything, it just introduces more confusion as to what good preaching really is.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. And the goal of the podcast is to help people think through things, especially those who are new coming to this perspective. We want to help you think through some things. I know there are a lot of young pastors, a lot of young preachers, we've got a lot of young guys who are in ministry or wanting to go into ministry who are contacting the Theocast, Justin, Jimmy, and I, and so we want to help shape and mold this next group of new movement that's happening. It's a historic, covenantal, Reformed movement—the Calvinism movement sparked something, and Justin and I grabbed onto that and really shifted over towards the Reformed perspective. We want to encourage that because this is where we do believe the church will grow. It will be strengthened. People will find rest, and will be merciful and kind to one another. We'll build one another up. This kind of stuff is not helpful. It's distracting. It's unfortunately gaining traction so we want to throw some flags up and say maybe we should rethink some of this.  
  
That's it. We'll see you guys next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous/)

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### Is Christ-Centered Preaching Dangerous? (Transcript)

*Published: January 20, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous-transcript*
*Tags: Christ Centered Preaching, preaching, Redemptive Historical*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, Justin and I are going to discuss an article entitled _Four Ways Bad Biblical Theology Warps Sermons_. We hold to biblical theology, a redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture, so we're going to walk through each of his four criticisms and maybe offer some explanation or a different perspective on it. Then in the members' podcast, we're going to explain where this type of an article may have come from and how it tends to be pietistic in its nature. We hope you enjoy. Stay tuned.  
  
Justin and I love talking about the gospel, about the Bible, Christ, resting in Christ—obviously. We have centered our entire podcast around the theology of Christ, resting in Christ, and Christ-centered preaching.  
  
Throughout our different segments, we break them up. We've done past episodes called Dazed and Confused where we clarify parts of the Bible that often are misinterpreted or people have had traditional understandings that we think counteract what the Bible is actually teaching. You can go to our website and listen to some of those. Once in a while, we'll hop on here and do a Hot Topic when it's around some kind of a theological issue or a cultural issue. Politics was one of them—that was related to theology because people were being told that if they voted one way, then they were not a Christian. You can go back and listen to that.  
  
So we like to categorize certain things. When someone will ask me about a particular theologian—one real popular right now is John Piper—we get a lot of people asking us what we think about John Piper or David Platt or some of these guys. We have categories that we like to discuss things and we have what's called heretical teaching: it's been denied by the church, the councils have said it is wrong. There is what we call unbiblical: it probably isn't a heresy, but we would say the Bible, we think, has greater clarity on this issue. So that person, or this article, or this book is taking what we would say is an unbiblical perspective. Then the third is what we would say is not helpful. Those are the three ways I've categorized them in the past, and how we do it here at Theocast.  
  
Today we're going to pick up one of these articles that seem to be circulating quite a bit. It happened about a year and a half or two years ago where there was an explosion of criticism towards biblical theology, Christ-centered preaching, and redemptive-historical preaching. What we mean by that is the Bible, of course, is God's Word, but God has structured it in such a way that is communicating something. We believe, along with the Reformers and the Reformed tradition, that the Bible is the story of God redeeming sinners. It's a redemption and it unfolds throughout history, obviously because the Bible is telling us a historical story. So it is God redeeming sinners starting in Genesis 3, moving all the way to the end of the book, and it is telling us how God is doing this. We understand this even from looking at Ephesians 1-2 that God had a plan to redeem sinners before the world was created.  
  
So we believe this, we teach this, we believe that all the Scripture as Christ says is about him, including the Old Testament—that the prophets and the Law were writing about the coming and the fulfilling of Christ using Israel as its means to accomplish bringing the Messiah for the whole world. This is the perspective that we hold, and it became for whatever reason in the crosshairs of some theological institutes and certain people who I think misunderstood some of the things that we were saying. There has been some confusion. What we wanted to do is walk through an article that seems to be recirculating, walk through his criticisms and points, and maybe try and bring some clarity where there has been some confusion.  
  
Justin, that's where we're at. Maybe you can bring us up to date on the article and your thoughts on it.  
  
Justin Perdue: The particular article that we're going to look at, and it appeared on The Gospel Coalition's website amongst a number of other places, it also appeared on 9Marks' website as well, written by a brother in Christ named Samuel Emadi. There are some things in this article that Jon and I think, as we make some clarifying comments, there are certain things that are written that we agree with. Yet the four major headings of the article itself—the article is entitled _Four Ways Bad Biblical Theology Warps Sermons_—and I think our concern today is that the headings in particular demonstrate, at least from our perspective, some misunderstanding of what redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching is. Again, to be redundantly clear, when we put all those descriptors together, the kind of preaching that we are advocating for is preaching that would go to every text of Scripture and understand it in light of the main point of the whole Bible, which is God's plan of redemption accomplished through Christ. So we approach every text and we ask where this text stands in relation to Christ, in relation to that grand point. As we investigate the text itself and allow the text to drive the message that we preach on any given week, we're just trying to be responsible scholars and students of the word. So that's what we mean when we talk about being preachers who would preach from the redemptive-historical perspective, from a Christ-centered perspective.  
  
Of course, nobody is going to disagree with those principles. The concern is we don't want to fall off the other side of the horse and make errors in the opposite direction. That was the motivation for this particular article that is trying to push back against redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching that may be unhelpful. Again, our aim today on Theocast is to try to advocate for that sort of preaching—redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching—that is expositional. We want to be clear about what it is, and we want to try to have a conversation in interacting with this particular article that we hope is helpful to people.  
  
What we don't want is for people who are encountering Reformed theology for the first time, or who are encountering legitimate Christ-centered preaching for the first time, to then be scared away from it because of a piece like this. We hope that this serves people well.  
  
Before we even get to the article itself, I'm going to read a quote from John Calvin to illustrate. This is a great quote from Calvin from his commentary on 1 John as to what the duty of a godly minister, a godly teacher is in particular in preaching. Let me just read this from Calvin and then we'll look to the article itself. Calvin writes, "As there ought to be a daily progress in faith, so the apostle," referencing John, "says that he wrote to those who had already believed, so that they might believe more firmly and with greater certainty, and thus enjoy a fuller confidence as to eternal life. Then the use of doctrine is, not only to initiate the ignorant in the knowledge of Christ, but also to confirm those more and more who have already been taught. For there are still in us many remnants of unbelief, and so weak is our faith that we need a fuller confirmation. But we ought to observe the way in which faith is confirmed, even by having the office and power of Christ explained to us. . . It is therefore the duty of a godly teacher, in order to confirm disciples in the space, to extol as much as possible the grace of Christ, so that being satisfied with that, we may seek nothing else." And we would say to that a hearty amen. That it is the duty of any godly teacher to extol as much as possible, all the time, the grace of Christ, so that the saints being satisfied in Christ might look to nothing or no one else for their hope, for their righteousness, and for their redemption. So that's the motivator for us, as we think about redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching.  
  
Now, Jon, let's turn specifically to the article itself, and we're just going to take this point by point and aim to make clarifying comments on it. The first way that bad biblical theology, according to the author, warps sermons is that it can produce, number one, sermons that are Christ-centered, but never make moral demands. I have thoughts on this, Jon, but I've been talking for like several minutes. You get us started.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In the beginning of the article, he talks about how he got really excited in seminary about biblical theology preaching, which is great. Then says that he made some mistakes along the way, and this is one of the mistakes: he felt he fell into what was called bad biblical theology. First of all, I would say if this is something he found himself falling into, I don't know if this is a criticism. For instance, I've heard people say, "Well, when I became a Calvinist, I stopped evangelizing." That's not the fault of Calvinism, that's your misunderstanding. I would say if you got to a point where you didn't feel the need to preach and uphold God's moral Law, that's a confusion on your part, not a confusion on what's being taught by biblical theology. I would say that a true biblical theology theologian understands the value and importance of a Law-gospel preaching, and a Law-gospel distinction that the gospel and Christ are useless without the Law.  
  
Now, I don't know if that's necessarily what he's getting at. I think what he's getting at in this point is that when you're preaching, let's say, a text from the Old Testament that is a narrative—we hadn't mentioned something recently about Nehemiah—and what we tend to do is then take the passage and make moral application for us today. In other words, don't be like Nehemiah or be like Nehemiah, or don't be like Daniel. What he's getting at is that if you're only preaching his perspective of what he thinks biblical theology is, if you're only preaching Christ, grace, and the perspective of redemption, and you never get to a place where you're calling the listener in the pew to some moral improvement, then you are actually not preaching all of the texts.  
  
Here's my response to that. If we are going to be faithfully preaching the text, and I mean you actually are teaching context and the authorial intent—what the author intended its readers to hear and do with that text—I would argue, think about how many of what we call imperative instructions like "do this" or "obey" kind of passage there are in the Bible. If you were to put a percentage on it, I would say very confidently that you're looking at 5% of the Bible from what you have in the Old Testament, like in Proverbs, and then what you have in the epistles, which is most of the time only about 30% of your epistles, because Paul does a lot of introductory, then he does a lot of theology, he does a lot Christology, and then he does a lot of ecclesiology or church theology. Then he gets into the instructions towards the end. It's only around 30% of that epistle. If Justin and I are going to start in Genesis and work our way through the Old Testament all the way through the New Testament and do what the text says, 5% of those sermons, other than faith in Christ, believe in Christ, trust in Christ, all of those imperatives for morality are going to come up, but just not as much as you think they're going to come up.  
  
Justin Perdue: A couple of thoughts here. The first is a more high-level observation that is just historically Reformed. The 1689 Confession speaks to this, as do the other Reformed confessions. We uphold what is known historically as the third use of the Law, which means that we understand God's moral Law—though we are not under it as a covenant of works, we're not condemned or threatened by it, we don't keep it for our justification—though that is true and Christ has fulfilled the Law for us, the Law of God, in particular moral Law, still guides our living in Christ Jesus. Jon and I both believe that, we both preach in that way, and a whole host of other guys who would be doing this kind of preaching would do the same. So in upholding the third use of the Law, we absolutely are going to be speaking in terms of morality and in terms of our lives with respect to things that we should be doing and giving attention to, and with respect to things that we should not be doing and we should be fleeing from. I know I do that in my preaching; Jon, I trust you do it in yours as well. That's one thing that we would say. A Reformed understanding that is redemptive-historical or a reformed understanding that is Christ-centered with respect to the Scriptures does not, in any way, mean that we would not make moral demands because as we uphold the third use of the Law, we certainly do.  
  
The other thing that I would say is something that I think Sam is raising in the article is that we need to be preaching effectively. Jesus has done all of these things, he agrees with us, but then we need to help people understand where we fit in that story and what it means for us—to which I would say, yeah, I agree. For example, this coming Sunday, I'm going to be preaching from Ephesians 2:19-22, which is where Paul tells the Ephesian Christians that they are citizens of the household of God. He's already been talking about how they were far off and they'd been brought near and all these kinds of things, but they are now citizens of the household of God. He then talks about how Christ is the cornerstone of the church, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, and we're all being built up now into this temple that is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I'm going to preach that and try to explain what all that means from a redemptive-historical perspective with Christ at the center, Christ is the cornerstone, but then I absolutely plan—and I haven't done any of my sermon prep yet, but in my own mind and heart, I'm already thinking about it—but I absolutely plan to help our people understand what this means for them as they are a part of it. We are a part of the church, and then what that means for how we think about the congregation and how we think about life with the saints and what God means to do through the church. I guess for me, one of the questions that I have reading this article—and I'm just going to not bury the lead—when reading the article wholesale, I'm really asking the question of who is it exactly that is in the crosshairs? What exactly are we speaking to? Because I think that what is being written to, and with all due respect, is a caricature and a reductionistic generalization of Christ-centered, redemptive-historical preaching that neither you, Jon, nor I, would advocate for. The kind of redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching we're advocating for would not be characterized by these things that are written in this article. That's really why we're doing this podcast today. So even with point one, that preaching makes no moral demands, I'm not quite sure what he's talking about.  
  
Now, what we are not going to do is turn every sermon into one where half of our time is spent morally applying the text and telling our people the things that they need to be doing, because I think that's actually irresponsible in the other direction. You've got a text that has no imperatives in it whatsoever, it's all about it's the indicative truth of what God has done in Christ, and then you turn half the sermon into pure moral issues that the Christian needs to concern himself with. I actually think that's irresponsible. It's legal preaching, it's moralistic preaching, and again, I know Sam would disagree with that as well.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Again, if we are going to be preaching the text, I feel like if you're going to preach morality from every text of Scripture, you would then have to say you think the purpose of the Bible is to curb morality—and I wouldn't say that's the purpose of the Bible. I just have a hard time thinking about that. I think it's the result of our faith in Christ and it's an outflow. John literally says in his gospel towards the end, he says he writes these things that you might believe. He didn't say it so that you will obey; obeying is a part of our faith. James and 1 John make this very clear that if you believe, you will obey. It's almost like we are emphasizing morality over faith. Christ-centered preaching and biblical theology are an emphasis on faith in Christ with the outflow of obedience.  
  
Amen. So you don't want to make the outflow the focus. You want to make the aim of Scripture the focus, which is that we might believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thereby be saved.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm with you completely. There is one exhortation that ought to be in every sermon, and that is to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ; hope in him, rest in him. Then there may be a number of other exhortations that are made depending on your passage. But to make the charge that redemptive-historical, Christ-centered preaching necessarily... well, it can lead to sermons that don't make exhortations if it's done badly, that's true, but just because something can be done badly doesn't mean that the thing itself is harmful or dangerous, like you already spoke to earlier.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Every Sunday is a call to repent and believe. Every Sunday, repent of trusting in yourselves, repent from idols, repent from sin, and trust in Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: Cast yourself upon the mercy of God and Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. If you're preaching Christ properly, according to the text, the only response to Christ is to turn away from self and towards Christ. So I don't understand how the criticism says you have to preach morality because morality does nothing—and I understand what he means.  
  
Justin Perdue: Me, too. I'm even thinking about services in your church, my church, the entire liturgy of our services is structured in such a way that we are aiming, through the entire service, including the sermon, that people would be convicted of sin, that people would see their absolute, desperate need for what Christ has accomplished in their place, and that we would be turning from sin, turning from our own notions of our own righteousness and goodness, and absolutely casting ourselves upon Christ and his sufficient work in our place. What that does is, as our hearts are stirred, we are also alongside that giving people handles in terms of what life looks like in the Lord Jesus as I live in the congregation of the saints. I know, Jon, that you're preaching that way, and I'm aiming to preach that way. That's where for us, as we read this article, we're not quite sure what it is that's being pressed back against.  
  
The second heading is that bad biblical theology would warp sermons in that it would, number two, produce sermons that don't present biblical characters as positive and negative moral examples. Sermons would not present biblical characters as positive and negative moral examples.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think some of the examples given here from other articles I may mention, but even here, where Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:6 took place as examples for us that we might not desire evil as they did. That would be the negative. He uses Hebrews 12\. He says Jesus and the apostles routinely call Christians to be like or not to be like Old Testament figures. Then he references James here where James encourages believers to be like the prophets Job and Elijah. We've done a Dazed and Confused episode on Hebrews 11 and 12 before, so we can do another one. But in all of these passages, one, Paul is using this as in a negative sense. He's saying these people hardened their hearts. They didn't listen to the Law of God and the demands of the Law of God, and understood that basically they needed to repent and turn towards faith in God's promises and God's hope. Paul's application to that is they don't do that. I'm on that all day. Everyday, I will say, "See, this does not do you well. Disobeying God's Law and trusting in your own righteousness does not do you well." I think any biblical theologian, and to the defense of the guys who trained us and trained most biblical teachers today—Vos, and even modern day guys like Sinclair Ferguson and Horton—they will wholeheartedly agree with the application of these verses saying yes, the Old Testament is written as the example. It's the history of the example of how you can't save yourself, and not trusting in Christ will condemn and damn you, and so I wholeheartedly agree with that. I don't think that's a fair criticism. Where I think he's really getting at are the positives.  
  
Justin Perdue: Let me speak to the negative piece really quick, before we transition. I'm with you completely. The negative examples that exist throughout the Old Testament are absolutely in my sights all the time, as you just alluded to, because on the one hand we are the guys that want to get up and say the history of God's people is one of abject failure and sin. Then God, in spite of that, is utterly faithful, He keeps His promises and saves them, saves us, in spite of our failure. That is the story of God's people from all time, whether we're talking about before Christ came, or sin. We have failed. God is faithful. He redeemed us because He's gracious and merciful and kind and loving—and He does it because He delights to save, it honors Him, it brings Him glory in saving sinners like us. Of course, the negative example is something that I think we talk about all the time.  
  
Let's pivot to the positive example piece, because I think that's where the real rub comes. Just to be very clear, we have spoken a number of times on this podcast about the "improvements" of using Old Testament characters as moral examples. I want to be very clear in what I mean by that. It's not that there is no room to ever talk about these things. Of course, there is room to talk about it. In this example with Abraham, we see that he's commended for faith—praise God. But then, let's talk about Abraham's faith. Honestly, let's talk about how it has faltered at points and how God did tremendous work in his life over decades. But Abraham's commended for his faith. Okay, cool. Let's talk about Job and how he's commended for being patient and longsuffering and bearing up under suffering. But let's look at Job in his honest wrestlings before the Lord. Let's talk about this interchange that he had with his friends and let's assess it from an objective perspective. I'm absolutely delighted to point to something in the text and say, "That's good. That's a really good thing, by God's grace, that was happening right there." Then at the same time, to also point out that this thing over here is not awesome—let's see ourselves in that. Then at the end of the day, let's talk about that.  
  
The point of the message, though, is why are these people in the biblical record? They're there ultimately to point us to Christ, and they would be the first to say that they are in need of Jesus just like us.  
  
What I would push back against is not using Old Testament characters as moral examples in a positive way at all. I would push back against using them as moral examples as the primary point of your message, which is what often happens. It's like 90% of the sermon is about Hezekiah and then 10% is about the plan of God through the Davidic line, the King who would come named Christ, who would save his people, and we need to trust him. I would just invert that: I would spend less time talking about Hezekiah; I would make the point of the message Christ and what God is doing through Jesus, and then we can look at Hezekiah underneath that banner and think about how pride is harmful and humility is good.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say, if God intended us to read the Old Testament and use these men as moral examples of what we should do—and I'm going to say this and try not to be irreverent with what I'm about to say—then God didn't really do a great job of providing a book that gives us a lot of good examples. You have very few examples of men who lived a life that was morally sound and commendable outside of their faith in God. I've got men in my church who have lived their lives way more faithful than David, way more faithful than Abraham, way more faith than Isaac, even Daniel—Daniel we only know a little.  
  
Justin Perdue: And of course what you mean by that, Jon, and meaning more faithful than Abraham, what you're pointing to is the fact that Abraham sold his wife into prostitution effectively twice. David is a man after God's own heart, which praise the Lord for that, and we see many good things in David's life, but next to those good things that we see are very heinous and grievous sins: abuses of power, having a man murdered so that he could have his wife, lust, adultery, and the like—and that's not to slam David to throw him under the bus, but it's just to circle back and ask why is David in the Scriptures? What is the point of David's life? What is it that David needs? What is it we can learn from David? Primarily, we are learning about our need of Christ and the Messiah to come who is the greater David. Secondarily, we can look at David's life and take some things away.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. When you have an understanding of biblical theology, the life of David makes sense. It's beautiful, it demonstrates God's grace, and God's mercy that even through David's absolute faceplant in the asphalt. God brings the Messiah. How is that not a better application?  
  
Justin Perdue: That's phenomenal. And I'm mindful of David's last words in 2 Samuel 23, where he's dying. He has some of those beautiful language in all the Bible about a good use of authority. Here's this man who has abused his authority, most notably in having Uriah killed, and now is speaking very eloquently to his family about the good use of authority in 2 Samuel 23\. What is that? God has worked in him and has taught him things. We can honestly assess his life and say things that are much more helpful. We don't have to turn it into the whole flannel board situation where we uphold these individuals as these great models for us to follow. I know that Sam is not advocating for that in this article.  
  
One observation that I want to make—and this is kind of a hit-the-pause-button-make-a-public-service-announcement and then we'll move forward. This is important, not only in this conversation, but in any conversation about theology or in real life, but theology is what we're talking about right now. Generally speaking, to turn things into this either-or proposition is just unhelpful. To create this false dichotomy where it's either this or that is generally bad. What we are often needing to do is hold things in appropriate tension and make the right emphasis—and that's what we're asking for when it comes to Old Testament characters: make the right emphasis, do not spend a lot of your time upholding these folks as moral examples, and spend a lot of your time preaching Christ as we look at the Old Testament witnesses. That's what we're saying.  
  
The fourth point, I'll probably speak a little bit more to the false dichotomy piece that I think is introduced in this conversation a little bit, but that's here in a minute. Point three, bad biblical theology would warp sermons in that it would produce sermons that sound the same every week. In particular, what Sam is pointing out in the article is that each sermon always tends to be the same. He says, "Look how Jesus fulfilled acts from the Old Testament." It's all preached from the perspective of Jesus fulfilling everything in the Old Testament, and it makes your sermons predictable.  
  
Jon, response to that? Thoughts to that?  
  
Jon Moffitt: I've heard this raised as an objection, and my question typically to this person is how, how much of a true biblical theologian have you heard preach? Obviously, Calvin's sermons, if you've read them, they don't sound redundant, they do not sound as if he only has one tune, that he doesn't have variety. There might be some backwoods preachers out there that no one knows who they are...  
  
Justin Perdue: Or lesser known guys that are doing this.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Exactly. Maybe there's a movement. I feel like Justin and I are got our finger on the pulse of what's going on in the Reformed world. We read and listen to almost everything that's out there, or we're aware of it, and I just don't see this. I don't see men getting up and basically saying the same thing over and over again. Anybody who is a biblical theology of theologian loves the text, is driven by the text, the beauty and the glory of the text just brings Christ alive. Every angle of Christ that we can see, as Paul says, when we look into the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Face means the character and person of, and Jesus himself tells us that that is developed, the character and the person of God are greater and bring a deeper development, through the Old Testament.  
  
When I was in seminary, there's an article that came out by Dr. Richard Mayhue. I was just reading and refreshing my memory on it again, and he was basically saying that the New Testament is where, if you're going to preach about Christ, then preach him from the new Testament because that's where Christ is, and that he's just a shadow in the Old Testament. John MacArthur will flat out tell you the reason he preaches 99% of his sermons from the New Testament is because that's where Jesus is, and my argument is that Paul told Timothy to preach all of Scripture and that all of it has beneficial—and he didn't mean the New Testament at the moment because the New Testament hasn't been fully written.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen. Then Jesus obviously understands that the point of the Old Testament—the Law, the Prophets, the Psalms—is him, that they bear witness about him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say the application primarily is going to be mostly the same. If I were to change his title, or his point, and his argument would be sermons that sound the same every week, I would say sermons that have the same application every week. That would be a fair assessment. The main substance is to trust Christ this week, and this is what this may look like according to this text: an application of loving your brother, submitting to one another, etc.  
  
Justin Perdue: I would say guilty as charged if the emphasis is the main thing that we're going to say from any Old Testament passage is that Jesus has fulfilled everything. That's true. It's the main thing, but it's not the only thing. That's where I would press back and say that if your sermons sound the same every week, that's more of a critique on that particular preacher, that he has not rightly understood biblical theology, or has not rightly understood preaching as a discipline, and how to go about doing exegesis, and going about doing homiletics to prepare a message. That's an indictment on that guy, that his sermon sounds the same every week.  
  
For me, Jon, and this is related to the fourth point of Sam's article which we're going to get to in a minute, my sermons are driven each week by several factors: the genre of Scripture in which I'm preaching and I'm finding myself, the text itself and what it says, what the main points are, and what the words on the page say. So what we're trying to do is explain those things. We're trying to explain this passage of Scripture in light of the main point of the Bible. The main point might always come out in terms of it being ultimately about Jesus—that may always be there. But I trust it's going to be communicated differently, we're going to arrive at that place in different ways, depending on the passage, depending on the emphasis, and the words on the page there, and there are going to be different kind of outworkings of it, different implications, different reflections, different meditations that are contained in our sermons. That to me is just part and parcel of what it is to be a decent preacher. Like you, I'm asking who's in the crosshairs here? What kind of sermons are we listening to if they literally sound the same as the week?  
  
Jon Moffitt: The argument is you are not being driven by the text, like you said. We're historical grammatical preachers. Is that point four?  
  
Justin Perdue: Yeah. We're getting there in point four; three and four are very related. The fourth way that bad biblical theology would warp sermons in the article is that it would produce sermons that are so focused on the big picture that they avoid the details of the text. Bad biblical theology would produce sermons that so focused on the big picture that they avoid the details of the text.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He says, "Rather than letting exegesis," that means the explanation of the text, "drive the sermon, I've heard preachers simply identify the big biblical-theological theme (temple, priest, king, law, sabbath, and so on) and then walk through Scripture's metanarrative focusing on that theme. Unfortunately, this approach ignores the most basic preaching question: 'What does the text say?' Ultimately, or biblical-theological route to Jesus must emerge from exegesis of the text."  
  
Justin Perdue: My initial takeaway is, yeah, that is bad preaching. I don't know guys that are doing that. We know dudes that hold to the 1689 Confession, the Westminster Standards, The Three Forms of Unity, our Lutheran friends who would hold to the Augsburg Confession, etc. None of them, that we know, are preaching in these ways where it's so reductionistic and we're not dealing with the text, or we're saying the same thing literally Sunday after Sunday.  
  
Jon Moffitt: My response to that is that when any expositor is preaching the Bible, and I would say any Reformed expositor... Are there disagreements on particular texts in Scripture? Yes. Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Baptists are all going to see certain texts differently. It is a little bit driven by their overarching confession and understanding of certain theology, but in the tradition of all three of these, they all understand that Christ being the point—Reformed Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Lutherans—they all understand Christ being the point of the Old Testament. And what we would say is every expositor has to place something on the text. If you don't, when someone says, we want to know the authorial intent—what did the author mean, and we get that from the history and the grammar—true, but then you are imposing upon the author and his intent. If you apply "be like Daniel", you're imposing that on the text because nowhere in the text are you ever told to be like Daniel. You just cannot see that. So you have to draw that from something else. We draw it as well, but we're drawing it, in our defense, from the New Testament. Because the New Testament authors use the Old Testament this exact way. Christ and Paul both looked at the Old Testament and said the flow of what was happening in the Old Testament is bringing us to the application of the New Testament, which is Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: What you're saying is that if to some degree, everybody comes to the text with a theological framework and a theological system. As much as you are trying to look at a text on its own, and look at it in its immediate context, the paragraph it's in, the book that it's a part of, you're still understanding in light of the entire Canon—which Sam and his articles are advocating for—your understanding of the whole Bible and the main point. What you're doing, whenever you're talking about biblical theology and the main point of the Bible, you're inevitably talking about a framework and a theological system, whether that's covenant theology, progressive covenantalism, dispensationalism, or whatever it may be. You've got those frameworks that are helping you orient yourself in any given passage and that's not wrong to do. That's what you're saying there.  
  
An observation for me on this is, again, I'm not quite sure who is in the crosshairs, because I know for myself, for you, Jon, and for all the other brothers I know of various Reformed and even Lutheran traditions and confessions, people are aiming to deal with the words on the page. We're looking at the words in front of us, the paragraphs in front of us, and we're aiming to help people understand those words in light of its immediate context, and in light of the context of the whole Scripture, or the entire Bible. That's the work of a preacher every Lord's Day as we open God's Word for our people.  
  
I just think it's an interesting charge. I've heard other guys say this. John Piper even, earlier this year in a message that he gave, said that there are a lot of guys who hover over the texts but are not actually in it. I'm not quite sure who those guys are because I know for myself, in my sermon preparation and even in preaching, I'm regularly looking at the words and the phrases and sentences on the page—and I'm pointing people to do the same as we understand God's word together.  
  
My last thought on that point four is, again, let's not introduce a false dichotomy. Let's not create a tension that doesn't exist. We need not pit what might be understood as a grammatical-historical approach to understanding the Bible over and against what might be called a redemptive-historical approach to understand Scripture. Those things are not mutually exclusive. They actually go together. Any responsible redemptive-historical preacher is also preaching from a grammatical-historical perspective. We're looking at the grammar and the history and the words on the page. Again, if people are not doing that, I agree with the critique. But I think for me, as I see this article at multiple points over the last year and a half, I just struggled to know exactly who's being talked about.  
  
My thought process is this: I think that the danger that exists in the evangelical church by miles is on the side of moralizing Scripture, and it is by miles on the side of not preaching the Bible from a redemptive-historical perspective and not preaching legitimate Christ-centered sermons. Rather, we're just going to say a lot of good things from the text and 45 out of 50 minutes of our message honestly could be said in a synagogue, and then we're going to stick Jesus in the plane of salvation or whatever. I think that's a much bigger problem, even amongst people who are aiming to take the Bible seriously. The other problem is, I think, a much smaller error. That's where I'm a little confused as to the aim of the article: who are we speaking to and what are we trying to correct here? Because as I've observed preaching, even amongst Calvinistic evangelicals, I think the other error of moralism and making it in pietism, frankly, where it's more about you and your Christian life than it is about Jesus, I think that's a much bigger issue. It's a much bigger concern. That's part of the reason that Theocast even exists.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In the members' podcast, we'll discuss this. But I think behind the article, what he's concerned with and what he's getting at is, "You are not going to preach sin. You are going to lead people into antinomianism, where they don't obey, and apathy. “So pietism is basically the concern.  
  
Justin Perdue: Which, again, we would want to say that lawlessness and apathy are legitimate things to be concerned for. But the question is how do we speak to those things and what is the antidote?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Paul tells those who are lawless and apathetic in 1 Corinthians what his goal is, and he comes in on the gospel hard.  
  
Anyway, we'll move into the members' podcast. For those of you that don't know what this is, it's a great way to support Theocast. We have a great support system and a support team that's ever-growing, and it is so encouraging. We're excited. This may be one of the last episodes going out of 2020\. We're very thankful for 2021 coming up. We are receiving enough donations to kind of really get us going into the next year. What we're doing costs a lot of money.  
  
Justin Perdue: Please keep giving those donations.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We transcribe all of our podcasts, we do videos, and we have a lot of people that work on the team of Theocast. A lot of that is required of time and we need to pay them and they take massive discounts to give us, and we were thankful for that. This is the way that Theocast has continued to grow and produce books. We have several books in the hopper. Biggest issue we have right now is finances. I know that Justin has one that's ready to go. We have two primers that we want to see go, but again, it's all a financial thing. So we just want to be honest with you that this is where we're at. This is what we're trying to do. Justin and I don't do this to make a living off of, we do this because it benefits our churches, and we know it benefits churches around the world. If you want to continue to see churches and pastors encouraged and benefit, then join the members' podcast. You can do that by going to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and just look right at the top. There's a membership section there. It gives you the opportunity to support us.  
  
We'll see you in the members' podcast.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-is-christ-centered-preaching-dangerous/)

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### MEMBERS: Leaving Pietism (Transcript)

*Published: January 13, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-leaving-pietism-transcript*
*Tags: Pietism*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-leaving-pietism/)  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Welcome to the members' portion of the podcast. This is where we get to let our hair down and discuss a little bit more openly some of the topics that we discuss here on the show. We're talking about the whole idea of pietism or leaving pietism. If you tuned into the regular portion of the podcast, you heard me talk about a tool analogy. The analogy here is that when I learned to use a hammer correctly, you realize that it does the work itself. It's the same in the Christian life that when you trust in the means that God provides and you trust His system and His ways of doing things, it actually works a lot better.  
  
Before we get there, the other analogy I want to talk about now is the same idea. We see this a lot in the Facebook group, and this isn't to put down anybody in the Facebook group—we love the conversations and the questions that you ask—and we've all done the same thing, that often when you get awakened to this this idea of pietism where you all of a sudden become a hammer and then everything becomes a nail. The question often becomes, "Is this pietism?"  
  
Jon Moffitt: Cage stage pietism.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: You see somebody praying before a meal—that's pietism. Or you hear somebody talking about getting a new devotion book—that's pietism. You overshoot the moon, so to speak, and then what once was just normal, now everything is pietism. I think it'd be helpful for us to discuss that a little bit that we don't want people to hear what we're not saying.  
  
I'll let you guys talk about that. The big question is: "I'm stuck in pietism. What can I expect? Now what?"  
  
Justin Perdue: To Jimmy's point, it is normal. We have to acknowledge this about human nature: we are pendulum swingers. When our eyes are opened to things that are true and good, we tend to swing way out on that pendulum and become somewhat extreme. Even if what we're clinging to is true, we become extreme in our understanding and application of it. We want to guard against that. That really is what we are describing when we use that phrase "cage stage". You have been shown something. In one sense, you're indignant about the fact that you weren't shown it before, that you've been in bondage, and now you've been set free. You legitimately are concerned that others would be shown this. Out of love for other people, you think, "We need to make this clear and we need to blow up all that other kind of bad thinking."  
  
In our zeal, we overreact and we say things that are less than helpful. We become extreme in our views, to Jimmy's point, where any kind of talk of obedience is pietism or anything that we might do that appears to be an act of devotion is pietism. You're like, "How dare you wake up in the morning and have time with your Bible while you drink coffee? Why would you ever do that? You're clearly a pietist." We had a conversation a few weeks ago about spiritual disciplines and how unhelpful that language is. I think what we would want to do is just speak biblically where we are in Christ, we have a new identity in Christ, we have a new status, we have been set free, we're no longer under the Law, we're under grace, and all of those things. Now we are free to pursue obedience in good works. We're free to love other people—and we're not doing that from a position or a posture of trying to earn something. We're not trying to gain favor with God. We're not trying to escape punishment in any way. But because we have a new identity, because we're free, because we're justified, we now get to do these things. We want to fan that flame of pursuing obedience and pursuing love and good works. Don't wig out about your motivations in it. Trust Christ and do that stuff. On the one hand, it's very simple.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to save a lot of frustration in your marriage. I know for sure in my context to where I made the transition and my poor wife was afraid to even bow her head in case I call her out for pietism. And, it gets old.  
  
Justin Perdue: And that's very unhelpful.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It is. I understand there's a desire to free people, just like Calvinism feels so freeing and it just exposes you to the awesomeness of God. Everybody wants to say, "Hey, come check out this movie. It's going to blow your mind." Pietism is kind of that, "Hey, can you please let me turn the light on? You have no idea what you're sitting in." So you come in with a spotlight and you just shine it right in their face and say, "See? See?" They're going, "No, I don't see anything except for your stupid light in my eyes. I appreciate you taking it off." It becomes offensive because you're not being patient. You're not being kind. You sound like a jerk. "I'm trying to do what's right and you're over here making me feel like an idiot. You're making me feel like I'm ignorant as if I don't even know anything." The hardest thing for most people is what they have been taught. I can remember my mom telling me I had sent her some things to read and she threw it across the room because she was basically saying, "You're telling me everything I've been taught my entire life is wrong." And that is hard to stomach, let me tell you.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Here's the thing: there are millions of well-intentioned Christians. There's not a Christian that I know that tries to oppress people with their theological framework knowingly to manipulate and control. Perhaps there's a few.  
  
Justin Perdue: We would do well to assume good motivations in other people.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Exactly. Give your brother the benefit of the doubt.  
  
I'm going to go ahead and say this: some of the things that we're saying... some people just are not ready for it. They'll say that the Christian life that they are living is working for them. I'm not saying that as a good thing, but I just know when I had my shift—when I learned how a hammer works properly—when I had that shift, the Law had done its work on my heart. I realized my shortcomings. I realized the ways that I could just never live up to the standard of the Christian life that I'd created for myself. It was like the pump was primed for the gospel to come in and finally bring rest to my soul. It's not going to be like this magical experience. We say leaving pietism and we kind of mean leaving in a way that never ends.  
  
Here in Minnesota, we have this thing called the Minnesota goodbye where you say goodbye at the dinner table, and then you say goodbye at the door, and then you say goodbye at the car. You never stop saying goodbye. Then you text them and say thank you. Then you say goodbye and goodnight. That's kind of the idea of pietism. I wish I could say like I've definitively left, but there are still areas where I have to battle guilt and shame that is not from the Lord, but it's from an unhelpful system and way of doing things.  
  
Something to encourage the listener in as they think, "I'm stuck in by pietism. Now what?" First of all, take a deep breath. The last thing you want to do is send this episode to your pastor. Don't do it. Because the only thing that you're going to do is one, generate an angry email from your pastor to us—and we don't like that. Two, it's going to strain some relationships within your church.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or you're just going to discourage him to no end. Ministry is hard. Even if he's going to be called to account—I get all that—but there are good and not so good ways of going about having these conversations.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just to add onto what Jimmy is saying, there's a famous quote by Calvin that says the human heart is an idol factory. We just constantly are creating these things to worship. I would add to Calvin's concept that the natural bent of humans is a pietistic bent. We are always wanting to prove ourselves. People ask me all the time, "Jon, I appreciate what you're saying about Christ, but what am I supposed to do?" We want to be verified. We want to be accepted. It's hard to live by faith alone, and to assume that God loves you and cannot love you more and cannot save you more than you've already been loved and saved. It's really hard to embrace that because our heart naturally wants to be accepted. "I did this, therefore, God is good with me." That's in our nature. This is why, as Jimmy and Justin have been saying, we're constantly leaving it. To use the illustration of the cleansing of the Word every week, we come and we receive the washing of the Word to refresh us and to cleanse us of the sin. It's really pride. Pietism is rooted in pride. "I think I can do this," and the Word washes over you and says, "No, you can't. It's been done. Jesus already cried out. It was finished. Stop assuming you've got this." The cleansing of the Word constantly helps you walk away from that pietistic leaning.  
  
Justin Perdue: We've danced around this a little bit and even kind of asked this question: where does pietism come from? To your point, Jon, it comes from our fallen human nature. It's just like what Spurgeon said about Pelagianism: we don't need to be taught Pelagianism; we get it from our mother's milk. The same is true of pietism. The legal spirit is hardwired into us and so we don't need to be taught these things. It's just natural for us. There's a reason why pietism is so prevalent and so rampant.  
  
Another word to the listener: as you find yourself in a pietistic context and you're having conversations with people, and you're trying in good ways to point this stuff out and set people free, I think you will find this to be true that when you continue to talk about Christ and the nature of the gospel and the fact that his work is finished and all that, you're going to find that Christians agree with you. They will affirm everything that you're saying. You internally get worked up and frustrated because you're thinking, "Yeah, but you don't really understand what I'm trying to say." My encouragement to you, friend, would be to just be patient, trust the Lord, and slow drip this stuff with the people that you have deep relationships with over time. There is something that is very winsome about patience and gentleness. You are not going to change somebody's mind overnight, and you're not going to change somebody's mind by just dropping the sledgehammer on them. You're going to change somebody's mind by having many, many conversations over the course of time where you continue to, in your own way, blow up their pietistic perspectives by always pointing them to the sufficiency of Christ and always pointing them to the fact that they, because they are still fallen, will never be able to just crush this thing called the Christian life. You do that in a patient, winsome, kind, gentle way over the course of years. I think you're going to find that to be much more effective than just blowing everybody up and mow everybody down with your confessional theology.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Time, patience, and gentleness are your best friends.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's what Paul calls us towards. He gives you complete rest in Christ, and then—I keep quoting this—Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3 say with all meekness, gentleness, and patience, maintain the bond of peace.  
  
What really bothers me about a lot of guys who are all about truth and all about doctrine and make sure it's cracked—and I'm for that because true doctrine keeps us free and refreshed—but they miss the meekness and gentleness. They also missed it when it said to speak the truth in love. The goal is to lead people to rest, not to beat them into submission. You want people to enjoy Christ and not think of it as a battleground.  
  
This is what's changed in my own heart and my own mind: I know that when Jimmy and I first met a few years ago, I was still very combative. I just wanted a fight with everybody. Then I realized that no one was following me towards Christ. They were like, "He's right, but he's kind of a jerk." Resting in Christ should create patience because as you look at Christ's patience towards you, you now have patience towards each other. Meekness is not weakness, patience is not compromise, and gentleness is not compromise. Somehow, within the Calvingelical world, if you aren't stepping on people's toes and poking them in the eye, then you're a compromiser and you're all weak on the gospel. I'm sorry but that it's just not the case.  
  
Justin Perdue: This whole mentality of how we've got to be lions for truth becomes very unhelpful sometimes because, to your point, Jon, you cannot compromise on the truth and continue, even from a confessional perspective, to herald Jesus,. But be willing to be shot at, be willing to be misunderstood, and just continue to preach the message and continue to love people. I think we're going to find that that's a much more effective approach over the long haul.  
  
I don't know that I've got anything else unique to add on this, unless you guys do. Jimmy, feel free to land the plane home.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think it's important to remember, as I said earlier, time, patience, and gentleness are your best friends as you transition from a pietistic framework of the Christian life. I think also, as Justin just said, you don't want to be the roaring lion going out and trying to devour everybody.  
  
The other thing is be prepared to have more questions.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You're going to be questioned constantly.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Beware of the ditch mentality. You don't want to be to the left or to the right—just right down the middle and that's going to take time and patience.  
  
Justin Perdue: I lied about being done. Just very quick: I think if you ever find yourself in a situation where you can't use biblical words like obedience or love or good works, then that's clearly a problem. This is a both-and reality. It's not an either-or thing. I can't reiterate that enough.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'll add this: Christians should obey, but the question is why?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Exactly. It's always to the benefit of our neighbor.  
  
I'm sure we're going to talk about this a little bit more, but we're going to go ahead and land this plane. Thank you to our listeners. It's year-end as you guys are listening to this and we cannot do what we do without your generous support. We're grateful for your love and your kindness and your financial means that bless us, that in turn bless others, as they listen to this podcast.  
  
We thank you for your support. Thank you for tuning into this members' portion of the podcast. From the bottom of our hearts, to use that cliche, we love you. We thank you for your kindness to us, and we hope that this conversation has blessed you so that you in turn can go and bless others and encourage them to rest in Christ.  
  
Thanks for listening.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/leaving-pietism-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/leavingpietism/)

---

### Leaving Pietism (Transcript)

*Published: January 13, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/leaving-pietism-transcript*
*Tags: Pietism*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/leavingpietism/)**  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Hi, this is Jimmy. On Theocast today, Jon, Justin, and myself—we are going to talk about one of the favorite things we love to discuss, specifically the idea of pietism. We talk about this a lot in our regular podcasts, and one of the things it can create is kind of this disorienting feel to the Christian life.  
  
We've titled this _Leaving Pietism_, where we discuss all of the different effects that it can have on the Christian life. We hope this conversation is helpful to you and we have a second part of this podcast normally in our members' portion that we encourage you to listen to. That's really where we land the plane of this conversation.  
  
Thank you for listening. Thank you for your support and we hope and pray that this podcast would encourage you to find rest in Christ. Thanks for listening.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Theocast has a lot going on in 2021\. We are trying to do more than we've done before. So stay tuned for that. We've got a lot of great announcements coming on. We're really excited about today's podcast because with all of our schedules, it seems like it's getting harder and harder being church planters and working jobs. It's always an encouragement to have Jimmy here and back on the mic. I think we're going to grab quite a few over the next few of these holidays. That'll be encouraging to have him back on.  
  
Today is a big moment for our podcast. It's a podcast we have been contemplating and talking about. We have skirted around the topic. We even mentioned it. But today's the day that we record a very important conversation and the subject is leaving pietism.  
  
I can remember the first time I heard that word. I had no idea what it was. It sounded puritanical, which was very much connected to that. I remember once it was described for me for the first time, as Jimmy had said before recorded, I had that "I'm not crazy" moment. There are many of you that probably are hearing this podcast for the first time because a friend of yours shared it with you. So we're going to hopefully, and as graciously as we can, peel back the Christian layers that have been laid upon you that we call pietism.  
  
Let's start with what is piety and pietism, and then we'll talk about why it is that this is a good subject to be discussing this morning.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: First, we need to make a sharp distinction because whenever we have this conversation with people, there seems to be a misunderstanding of the terms that are being utilized. What we like to say here at Theocast is piety is good. Holiness is good. No guy on this podcast would go ahead and say that a life of rampant sin is okay. Nobody would say that. Piety is good, but what we are pointing out is pietism is bad and unhelpful. What we mean by that is pietism is this hyper focus on the personal sanctification of the believer, a hyper focus of what we would call the inward Christian life where it's obsessive about feelings and the popular way you could say is my affections.  
  
There is a hyperintense focus on the personal faithfulness of the Christian, and so after a while, what you can begin to feel in a pietistic realm of the Christian life is "I'm never doing enough. I never feel like I'm living rightly enough." Like there's always something more to be done. We're going to get into that here shortly, but I want to throw it to Justin to help flesh out this idea of the difference of piety and pietism and specifically what we mean.  
  
Justin Perdue: Piety is something we can define simply as godliness, and in particular it is the work of the Holy Spirit in and through us. Piety, as Jimmy has already said, is all kinds of good. We're all for it. We trust the Holy Spirit of God to be producing godliness and genuine piety in us, and He is faithful to do that work.  
  
Pietism, as Jimmy has already said, is a hyper focus on the obedience, the performance, the affections, and feelings of the believer. The emphasis seems to be almost exclusively upon the believers own personal improvement. In that sense, I think it is fine to say that it's a focus on the believer's sanctification, but it is always this hyper individualized reality that becomes the emphasis of everything in the local church.  
  
What we want to try to do here on this podcast is do a few minutes of defining terms and pulling back the curtain, helping people see what this is, and maybe what this even looks like in their own personal context. Then we want to do some reconstructing: how can we help lead you and lead many out of pietism into a different place that is focused upon the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work? Where there actually is rest, peace, and assurance to be found as we together are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit and built up in love onto maturity in the body of Christ.  
  
Jon, thoughts? Anything else that you want to do, brother, by way of chalking the field before we talk about what this looks like and how this affects us in the local church?  
  
Jon Moffitt: I know when we say something like "hyper focused on individual sanctification", it seems almost like an oxymoron. We're deemphasizing the importance of it. Part of pietism is so rebranded in the Christian life. It has changed the way in where the Bible has put the emphasis. We assume that all of Christianity is the constant affirmation of our election. Applied to them is almost a denial of God's sovereignty that He who began a good work in you will complete it, that our faith rests not in our works but in the work of Christ. All of that would be affirmed in pietism. In pietism, they would say, "Yes, God is sovereign. He elects us." All of our sermons and books, and the way in which we think, the way we process this relationship with God is us thinking we must meet these watermarks. If we don't meet these watermarks, then we should call into question whether we truly are children of God. So there's this feeling of onward and upward, this constant pressure of growth.  
  
What's hard is that you aren't quite sure where the watermarks are. It seems like they're moving, or as Justin has used an illustration in the past, it's like Lucy keeps moving the football; the goalposts keep moving. You never truly find rest because of the requirements on you. So if you're doing five minutes a day of devotions and prayer, really you should be at 10 minutes—and then really you should be, and then you should be, and then you should be.  
  
You have people who will go into a men's or women's Bible study and confess a struggle with a sin and they are looked at. The question they receive is, "How long have you been a Christian? Shouldn't you be over that by now?" So there is no place for struggling with sin. There is no place for doubt and fear and anxiety. When you do have those, you suppress them because pietism basically says you should be looking like this. In my experience, you become fake, superficial, and you suppress any real doubts that you have because you do not want to be known as a baby Christian.  
  
When we say hyper focus, what we're saying is you are more focused on what you are doing for God than what God has done for you. Hyper meaning inappropriate emphasis. It's an inappropriate emphasis on the individual sanctification because you assume that you can actually sanctify yourself and God is there cheering you on.  
  
Justin Perdue: Pietism is essentially a prove yourself kind of outlook. It's a prove yourself kind of theological framework where there are these standards that need to be met. Again, nobody can define those biblically. Nobody can tell you how much is enough. We've talked about that before. But there needs to be a certain amount of improvement, a certain amount of performance and obedience, a certain kind of trajectory in my affections and if I am not meeting that standard, then I should be very concerned. If I'm not meeting that standard—to your point, Jon—my entire union with the Lord Jesus is called into question.  
  
It's a fundamentally different understanding and presentation of the Christian life than what we see in the New Testament because in the New Testament, the apostles seem to convey that you are in Christ Jesus by faith. You have been united to him and thereby you are legit. Now live in the Lord Jesus Christ and conduct yourself in these ways as the redeemed saints of God. Instead, pietism flips that on its head and says if you are legitimately in the Lord Jesus, then you will do all of these things and you need to go prove that you're not a faker through your obedience, through your performance, through your improvement, through your affections, and your feelings. That has all kinds of fallout for the local church and for the life of the individual Christian.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The heavy emphasis on fruit. Are you demonstrating fruit?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: In a pietistic framework, the Christian life becomes one of constant self-discernment that there is this intense focus on motives. It's not just, "Did I do this particular Christian act?" but "Did I do it with the right motives?" That isn't to say that motivations are unimportant, but it is to say that that is an endless well that you can get very much lost and go into a downward spiral as you focus on all of the things that you should be doing, and not only that you should be doing, but that you should be doing with the right motivations.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If your motivations aren't swimming in grace, you're in trouble.  
  
Justin Perdue: The harder you flail and struggle, the further you sink down. And it's just how it is.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I would say in pietism, the eyes of the heart are always pointed inward that you're constantly looking to yourself. Speaking from personal experience, when I lived in a pietistic world, it actually produced the opposite of what it promises. I would think that spending time in personal prayer and Bible study would produce a greater holiness and love for the saints. But often what it did was the exact opposite is that it made me really neurotic as I tried to fulfill self-imposed laws of whether I did it enough or if I did it with a right amount of reverence. I would constantly remember reading my own Bible and asking myself if I am doing this for the right reasons or if I am just doing this to gain God's favor.  
  
Honestly, and maybe we can shift the conversation here, the pietistic life can ruin a Christian. There are really two ways that it does that. One is that pietism can produce some really self-righteous people, but also it can produce some really self-conscious people.  
  
I want to throw that to you guys and kind of flesh that out. What does pietism do to the Christian and maybe even the local church?  
  
Justin Perdue: Just very quick—an interjection. For the sake of clarity, when we talk about pietistic contexts, we do not mean that in those contexts the gospel is not preached. It generally is. When we talk about pietistic contexts, it's not as though people in those realms don't believe in the sovereignty of God, in salvation, and things like that—oftentimes they do. It's this very strange, almost schizophrenic reality where on the one hand I'm being pointed to Jesus and what he's done for me, and I'm even being told to find peace and comfort in the sovereignty of God over my life and over my salvation. But then on the other side of it, I'm being robbed of any assurance that I could ever have because I'm always being pointed inward and being caused to question the legitimacy and the sincerity of everything that I do. And to your point, Jimmy—did I feel the right way? Were my motivations appropriate? Did I do enough? Am I zealous enough? And inevitably anybody who has any self-awareness, when they're trying to measure themselves according to those standards, is going to fall short. You're going to fail. We're not going to pass the test.  
  
To your point, I think the results of pietism in the local church or in the individual believer's life are one of two things generally. I think for some people, and this would be a smaller subset, it can fan the flames of self-righteousness and pride because some folks think they're doing pretty well, and maybe naively, they think they're crushing the Christian life. For those people, they're just driven further into that self-righteousness and that proud place, and they tend to look down on others and be condescending and all that. But I think for the majority of us, what it ends up doing is it ends up crushing us and producing despair, and we're anxious and depressed all the time. Because life in a fallen world is hard enough as it is. Then the only thing that could ever give us peace and hope and assurance has been taken from us because we're being pointed to ourselves and we realize, "I haven't done well enough and maybe I'm not legitimate." And so we really are just floundering—and we're distraught and despondent, frankly.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hopefully you hear that these are three men who know the pietistic tendencies of their own hearts, and who have drowned in it themselves.  
  
Going towards what Jimmy has said, all pietists hate legalism. They will say that legalism is bad, that you cannot and should not earn your salvation before God, and they would be offended if you called them a legalist. They would say, "Oh, that is an inappropriate description of who I am." Pietism is really sneaky. It's very, very sneaky because pietism is not the emphasis of earning your salvation. The sneaky part of it is maintaining yourself. It's proving that when you say you are saved by faith alone, that you really mean it. There is a lot of worry about things like lordship salvation and radicalness, and even some of the things that come from your desires and affections, as Jimmy has said. What it does to you is that you obviously are going to quote Ephesians 2:8-9 from the rooftops, but in your bedroom, you're totally afraid saying, "But is that really true with me? Is that really how I feel?" You live in that constant fear and dread. Those who have grown up in a dispensational background, you're worried that Christ is going to come back and you truly aren't one of the elect because you don't seem to be showing enough.  
  
So you don't live in confidence of Christ; you live in doubt of Christ because of you. You actually are denying faith alone. Salvation is a Person; it's not a process. Jesus saves you. You don't do something to saved.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think one of the favorite phrases of pietism is the if-then or the conditional statements that if you truly are a Christian then you would necessarily do these things. Ultimately, what that points us to is that the litmus test of our faithfulness, the litmus test of our Christianity, often becomes the things that we do. That is where the focus is.  
  
Now, I want to be clear: that doesn't mean that there aren't necessary consequences of the Christian life. That is not what we are saying. We are not saying that you can have faith in Christ and then go on and live however it is that you good and well please. What we are saying is that there is a fundamentally different posture to the Christian life—that the litmus test is not the faithfulness of the Christian, which waxes and wanes as the difficulties of a fallen world press in on the believer, but the litmus test of the Christian life, the litmus test of whether you will be saved or not is always and forever Christ and Christ alone. That has to be it. Otherwise, the minute that we begin to add our own works, our own maintaining faithfulness to the Christian life will actually begin to taint the purity of what the gospel is, which is that Christ has saved us by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of his precious work alone.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen, brother. If I were going to try to reduce it down, to piggyback on what you're saying, the litmus test in pietism of the Christian life and our legitimacy is what we do, not who we trust. It's just soul crushing for so many people. I think that all the statements that you made, Jimmy, by way of clarification are important. We are all for good works and the pursuit of obedience and we trust.  
  
Let me just briefly interrupt myself. The concern of every holiness movement in the history of the church has always been that if we tell people that redemption and salvation are finished, that Jesus has done it, there's nothing left for you to do except to trust Christ and receive what he has done for you, if we tell people that then it will produce lawless living and lax Christianity. And our response to that is always and forever going to be no, the preaching and the heralding of the finished work of Jesus in no way produces those things because of the reality of our union with Jesus and the reality of the work of his Spirit in us to conform us to his image. The Lord will do it. It's very interesting how people who love to say that salvation is of the Lord from beginning to end will lose their minds somewhere in the middle: God has justified us, God will glorify us, but in the middle you better get to work, and it depends upon you, your effort, your diligence, your sincerity, and whatever, to make sure that this thing goes according to plan. And you may very well mess it up—to which we would say, if that's true then we may as well be doing something else because we're wasting our time. Because if we can mess this thing up, we will.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Pietism really is rooted in the concern for the lazy or lax Christian. There are entire movements and ministries and well-known men who have created massive followings because they have convinced people that lazy Christians are not Christians. They're constantly calling into question the intentions, desires, and works of the individual.  
  
This is a concern I've had. I've been doing this for five years on the air. I've received a lot of criticism over the years and these guys are experiencing this now, too. What we are offering is not an either-or situation here: you're either doing no holiness or you're doing holiness. This is not an either-or. As a matter of fact, I can't remember how many times it'd be interesting to go back and see us quoting Ephesians 4 when it says to walk in a manner that is worthy of the calling to which you have been called. Paul starts with your resting in Christ for three chapters, and then talks about the motivation for your obedience. But it has nothing to do with this individual hyper sanctification. It's all outward: if you've been saved, love your brother. What pietism tells you is if you've been saved, prove it—do these things to prove it and increase it.  
  
What's interesting is that Peter says Christ has sovereignly chosen us. He saved us. He's the one who's moving us forward. Then he says, "Now add to this love, kindness, meekness, and gentleness." The point of it is that the adding is building up on the foundation. And the word "add" there—it's kind of a tricky translation. It really should say more of the outflow like you must now demonstrate it. At the end of it, he says if you're not doing this, you have forgotten that you've been cleansed. That is an appropriate understanding of our good works. Pietism would change what Peter says. It would say if you aren't doing these things, you should question if you've been cleansed. Peter says, you forgot you were cleansed and pietism says you should question your cleansing.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something I like to point out is that pietism can also be called the tag-you're-it theology. It's like when Christ died on the cross, when he said it is finished, what he really meant was, "Tag, you're it. I did my part and now it's your turn."  
  
Justin, I like the word that you used earlier: "the maintenance of the Christian life is really up to us and us alone." It's like Jesus is coming back and so you better, with fear and trembling, like a weight has returned, and stockpile your life with love and good works. Make sure that when he returns, there is enough. But what the Bible mysteriously points us to is that Jesus is the founder, but he's also the perfecter of our faith. The book of Hebrews taught that. Philippians 1, "That he who began a good work in you," verse six, "will bring it to completion."  
  
Where we want to be so primarily concerned often is with the quality of our personal holiness. I think the Scripture constantly wants to draw us out of ourselves to see that Christ has accomplished so much for us on the cross and in his resurrection. The Scriptures want to point us to that.  
  
One of the fundamental postures of the Christian life is what we call "status forward"—that our status in Christ is forgiven, cleansed, made new, and that we have died and risen with Christ. It's the same thing that we talk to about our kids. When our kids disobeyed in the Buehler household, something that we constantly say is Buehlers don't do that. It's not, "Charlie and Owen and Nora, you better shape up or else you might prove yourself not to be a Buehler." That's not it at all. It's like, "No, you are a Buehler. Therefore we don't hit our sister in light of that. We don't lie to mom and dad." That has nothing to do with our love or affection for them as their parents. We point them to their identity: Buehlers don't do that. It's the same within the Christian life.  
  
Outside of a pietistic framework, the framework that we're pointing to doesn't actually lessen the battle against sin—it just puts you in a completely different mindset. However, you're going to start to notice that... the people listening to this podcast right now, I can see them going, "Oh, I feel crazy." Suddenly everything is being shifted.  
  
Justin, go ahead. I think you want to jump in.  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to speak to that "you're not crazy" thing. So that is, in one sense, what we're saying to people. If you are sensing and perceiving this stuff, and you're in a context where you do feel like something is off here, we want to tell you you're not alone and you're not crazy.  
  
I've tweeted this before. I don't think I got some flack for it; many agreed with it. I think that pietism is an evangelical version of gaslighting where in the church, we're constantly being pointed inward—we're being pointed to ourselves in our own performance, obedience, and affections, like we've been saying. Thereby, we assess ourselves, we fail to meet the test, we're not doing well enough, and so we're unsettled. We lack assurance. We're despairing and we're despondent. We go to the leaders in our church, or to our pastors, we ask the questions, and we present this struggle that we're having. "I have no peace. I have no assurance. What do you have for me? I'm concerned about my eternal state and whether or not I'm in grace or not." The answer is always, "We don't know what you're talking about. You were saved by grace, through faith in Christ alone. There's nothing wrong here. You're fine if you're trusting in Jesus." But then, we turn right around the next Sunday and we're being pointed back in on ourselves again.  
  
It puts the believer in this state. If anybody has seen the movie _Gaslight_ back in the day, it's this situation where we're thinking that we're losing our minds because we're struggling with assurance. Something must be wrong with me when in reality, there's this very confusing message that's being presented. "You better be doing enough." But then on the other hand, you ask about it and they say, "Oh no, we believe in salvation by grace, through faith in Christ alone." Then you leave thinking that the problem lies with you. "Clearly Christianity has not worked for me. Or maybe I'm just not of the elect." Or whatever you conclude. It's tough.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Jesus' phrase when he says, "Come to me...all who are heavy laden." He's talking about pietism. He's saying you have been put under this pressure by the Pharisees, come to him and he will give you rest. This is the tagline of our ministry: "Helping weary pilgrims to find rest in Christ." Because this is what Christ does. Then he says, "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." He's not saying there's nothing to be done.  
  
Justin Perdue: "For I am gentle and lowly in heart and you will find rest for your souls."  
  
Jon Moffitt: A yoke, just so you understand, is something that two animals would wear where one would help them. It was something you did together. Christ comes around, he holds us, and we rest within his work in this burden as we wait for his return. It is not a burden we cannot bear.  
  
I know a lot of times we get to this point in the conversation and I get this question all the time: where did this come from? You heard your grandparents tell you, "Hey, there's a box of up in the attic. If you want it, it's yours." You go up in there and start rummaging around, and then you see this old box of books and wonder what that is. You pop it open and all of a sudden you see a title that just grabs you and you start reading it. And this book is old: it's like 300 or 400 years old. All of a sudden you realize that this book is flaying you apart. It's describing you to a tee. This is what's happening to the three men that are talking to you right now, except that box of books is called a confession. We started to read how the Reformers aka Christianity, this is what the Christian life was supposed to be, is supposed to be, and it is grounded in Scripture, and it is always focusing on the finished work of Christ. So this isn't new. We aren't describing something like, "You will not believe what we have discovered." What we have discovered has been written and we're rediscovering it—we're reteaching that which is old.  
  
You need to find assurance and find safety in that what we are pointing out is not new. We're not asking you to leave something—we're actually drawing you towards something. You're walking away from something towards a sure foundation that is far older than anything that's ever been handed to you, which is purely, for another podcast, based on revivalism of the 18th century.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Unless people want to criticize us, which we have had people say we focus too much on what the Reformers have said. But really the Reformers were going back also to the original sources. _Ad fontes_ in Latin, which means "back to the sources" where they were focusing on what the earliest church fathers were writing and the Scriptures themselves.  
  
We're not saying that whatever Luther says, or Calvin says, or Knox says were always right. Those guys were doing what we are seeking to do today back then. A kind of mantra that came out of the Reformation was _extra nos_, which means "outside of us". Something that I like to point our church to, and something that I want to point the listener to, is that the Christian life is outside of yourself. The realities of the gospel exist outside of you. That we need the gospel to come to us from outside of us and declare forgiveness and grace over us. That the Christian life is also outwardly focused. That our status in Christ has been made. That we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone. Now, in total freedom, we can love and serve God and our neighbor. But pietism actually wants to rob you of that because it wants to place the posture of the Christian life, the focus of the Christian life, inward. That it's a battle of emotions, and it's a battle of feelings, and it's a battle of motivations. That isn't to say that those things aren't important. But as we said earlier, that is an endless well that will only cause you to downwardly spiral the rest of your days. And it produces the opposite of what we're saying because it's going to produce a neurotic person.  
  
Tell me this: what is it like being around an insecure person? What is it like? Frankly, insecure people do a lot of things, but some of the things that insecure people do the most is they become intolerable. They become rude because they're insecure and they're trying to make up for something. Or insecure people are almost insufferable to be around because they're always talking about themselves and focusing on themselves. That's what pietism does to the Christian. It just points you inward so much to the point where in an effort to be fruitful, you become fruitless because you're constantly focusing on yourself.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just to go back real quick. To add to what Jimmy had said about inward versus out. The Christian life was never designed to be lived alone and pietism just isolates everyone—that your growth and your security are all wrapped up in you. What you will learn through the confessions, through Scripture—just read Ephesians 4 and following—that your health, your growth, and your effectiveness have nothing to do with your own personal piety. Your personal piety, which is absolutely important—how you obey—is designed to draw you into the community of Christ, the body of Christ. Paul never says, "When you do this, you will grow in Christ." He says, "When the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love."  
  
That is the difference between a confessional outlook of Scripture that is drawing you towards a congregation, towards a body, versus pietism which is drawing you inward and as individuals. I think it's really important to understand that as you're walking away from pietism, you're walking away from this isolation—being by yourself and constant living in fear—to this massive choir, to this massive of gathering of information from outside of you, where you are constantly being told of what Christ has done for you by others.  
  
I know I've picked on this before, but I'll pick on it again and I'll throw it to Justin. That whole phrase "preach the gospel to yourself"—sure, it's helpful, and I do that. I think on Christ and I love to think about Christ, but that is never as effective as it is when I receive the Table, and I hear the gospel proclaimed over me because we receive Christ outside of ourselves. That's the design of Jesus in the Holy Spirit and the power of the body.  
  
Justin Perdue: We're not as good as we would like to think we are at preaching the gospel to ourselves. We need the saints, we need the gifts Christ has given to the church, we need the sacraments—we need those things.  
  
I want to reiterate a couple of things that you guys have said and maybe put it in my own way—and maybe this will be helpful to somebody. I want to reiterate what Jimmy said about the history of all this stuff. I think the listener needs to understand that not only are we not saying anything new, but in looking back to the Reformers, we are standing in line with them as they look back through church history. To men like Agustin, for example, and Agustin's infamous miserable sinner Christianity where we are desperate for the grace of God in all things, where he says, "Lord God, command what you will and grant what you command, and we're completely dependent upon you to work these things in us." That sounds very Reformed. Then obviously, Agustin and the Reformers alike are looking back to Scripture.  
  
A few big words in my mind if I was going to give people some handles. Jimmy talked about _extra nos_. So, one handle is objective. The gospel in the work of Christ is objective, meaning it's outside of us. It's unaffected by anything inside of me: how I'm doing, how I'm feeling, how I'm thinking. It's not subjective, it's objective. Then it's also the work of Christ and the gospel are declarative, meaning they're done, they're finished. There's nothing to be added to them. We rest in what Christ has done and we receive it. Then also the Christian life is corporate, to Jon's point. We are saved from God's wrath to God's people and the project of sanctification, the project of salvation is a corporate project. It's a community effort where we cling to one another as we all cling to Christ—and this is God's plan. Objective, declarative, and corporate are good words—at least in my backpack that I think about regularly. Those are different than what is often presented to the Christian in the pew. I think they're freeing, they're liberating and they're paradigm-shifting.  
  
So I think we want to ask a question now that we may try to answer.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We do. We're going to transition into our membership and Jon's going to explain a little bit more about what our membership is and what it looks like.  
  
I remember when I was younger. I just got married and I was inheriting all these tools to work on the house and things like that. I remember there was one specific tool—I'm going to leave it unnamed so I'm not super embarrassed—but I remember there was one tool that I was just using incorrectly, like massively incorrectly. I thought it was I was a guy, I was a man, I can do this, I can figure this out. I remember using this tool and one time this guy told me, "You know, you're using that wrong." Then he showed me how to use it and it shifted everything for me where all of a sudden, I wanted to use this tool on everything. It was just so exciting.  
  
What we're discussing is going to do this for a lot of people. It's going to be like, "Wait a minute. I'm realizing that I'm stuck in pietism or I'm stuck in a pietistic context. Now what? What do I do now? I have all these realizations." That's what we're going to talk about in our members' podcast.  
  
Justin Perdue: If somebody were to ask me, "Justin, how would you summarize the kind of theology that you guys are articulating here at Theocast? Give it to me in a really brief synopsis." I would say that what we are aiming to articulate and emphasize is simply the sufficiency of Jesus Christ. It is that he is mighty and able to save to the uttermost all those who draw near to God through him. At the end of the day, that's it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Amen to that. We are going to be moving over into our members’ podcast. 2021 has a new membership for us and we're kind of changing how things are done. What we want to do is provide for you additional resources—ways in which if you love what you're hearing and you want to learn what it means to rest in Christ, other Reformed resources are there, and what articles and books you should be reading. We're offering more classes. We have a class on covenant theology, a class on Calvinism, we have a class on Reformed spirituality. There's a lot that we're doing.  
  
But the biggest push that we want you to hear is that your partnership with us is what allows us to keep this going. We have been doing this for a while now, and I can't tell you how many emails, how many comments, how many messages that we receive from people literally from around the world. We have over 125 different countries who have listened, over a million downloads, and all of that as possible because we have people who basically jump on our teams and become supporters on our support teams. We just want to thank you for doing that. A way that we kind of add to that is our membership podcast. It's where the gloves come off and we really kind of get down and dirty into the weeds and express some things that we probably don't have time to do in the regular podcast. I encourage you to come over there and join us on our private podcast feed. You can download that right onto your phone.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: This has been a fun conversation. We've been looking forward to this one for a long time.  
  
We want to thank you, the listener, for tuning into this episode. We would encourage you, if you are not a member, to get signed up for that. You can find more information at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. Now we're going to head over into the members' portion of the podcast, and we hope to see you there.  
  
Thanks for listening.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-leaving-pietism-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-leaving-pietism/)

---

### MEMBERS: Did We Fail 2020? (Transcript)

*Published: January 6, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-did-we-fail-2020-transcript*
*Tags: 2021, NC*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-did-we-fail-2020/)  
  
Coming soon...  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/did-we-fail-2020-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/did-we-fail-2020/)

---

### Did We Fail 2020? (Transcript)

*Published: January 6, 2021 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/did-we-fail-2020-transcript*
*Tags: 2021, NC*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/did-we-fail-2020/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, Justin and I are together in Knoxville.  
  
Justin Perdue: In the same place.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're going to do a podcast on—  
  
Justin Perdue: Essentially reflecting on 2020\. We've been together today planning for 2021 Theocast. We thought why don't we reflect a little bit on 2020? Things that we have learned as pastors, as Christians, as guys, husbands, dads, etc., and hope that it will be helpful to the listener. It's a little bit random.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We dig in on why maybe you shouldn't hold on to your opinion as much as you think you do.  
  
Justin Perdue: We do. Hopefully, you'll be humbled by that as we have been, as we think about our own failures in those ways. As we meander here, there, and everywhere, we hope that you find things that are applicable to your life that are maybe poignant and can point things out in your life, but also encourage you as you think about living life in a fallen world and fighting your sin and trusting Christ in a pandemic. We hope this is helpful.  
  
Jon and I have been spending time together today. We've been enjoying one another's company, I guess that's fair to say, but we've been working. We've been reflecting on some things for Theocast, but mainly trying to plan for the future and thinking about 2021 as the new year is fast approaching.  
  
We're sitting here today in the middle of December. We're making a lot of plans for not just the podcast but things beyond the podcast—the scope of which is exciting for the two of us. It's been a really good day, an exciting day, and as we think about the future and make plans, we can't help but reflect back on 2020 as we come to the end of this year.  
  
Everybody knows that 2020 has been a year, but one of the things that we thought we might do today in recording a podcast, sitting here together over a beer, is to have a pretty natural conversation about things that we have learned as pastors and as men in the year 2020.  
  
Who knows where this is going to go? We've primed the pump a little bit and thrown out one or two things that we've each considered or learned this year. But hold on, friends. Who knows?  
  
Jon Moffitt: In general, it takes a lot to fluster me to, to make me feel awkward, and put me in a circumstance where I just don't feel comfortable. There aren't very many times that has happened. 2020 has shown me new heights of that. I find myself in situations where I felt highly uncomfortable in front of unbelievers and believers alike where normally I would never feel uncomfortable. I feel like my skin is crawling and I want to get out of circumstances or conversations, or you can feel where the conversation is about to lead by the questions that are being asked.  
  
And the conclusion I have come to about 2020 -  
  
Justin Perdue: Is that you don't want to talk about COVID anymore.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Exactly. The conclusion I've come to is that people are far more in love with their opinions than they probably should be, and their opinions tend to be almost on a biblical level. There are thoughts about something and they come at it with such passion.  
  
Justin Perdue: And such vigor.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That it just seems like we're talking about the resurrection of Jesus Christ  
  
Justin Perdue: Or the deity of Jesus or something like that. No, you're right. We were using the phrase "married to your opinions" before we recorded. We were saying people probably need to just go and get divorced from those things because it is unhelpful. I think 2020 has revealed how opinionated we all are, and some of our opinions are better than others, and some of our opinions are more or less informed than others, but all of us I think would do well to take ourselves a little bit less seriously.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I don't have a problem with people having an opinion because they are based on preference, history, taste, flavor, experience. But the key is what you just said is that people take themselves way too seriously as it's related to their opinion.  
  
Speaking as a pastor—this is a conversation about two pastors who happen to be Christians, who struggle with sin, who struggle with their own pride and arrogance. I realize as I sit back and listen... I was speaking with a CEO of a very large company yesterday over dinner. He was saying that this past year, even just on social media, it's so uncomfortable because you say and do the wrong thing and you can literally blow up your life—it's over—because of how you potentially mishandle COVID or racism or the election.  
  
Justin Perdue: There have been so many things to divide over for Christians in the church this year: from COVID 19 and how to approach it, how to navigate it corporately or individually, masks and the whole nine yards; there's been politics and election year; there's been a supercharged conversation about race and racism.  
  
I'm not against opinions at all. I'm a very opinionated person and I usually have about 17 reasons for every opinion that I have. You can ask my wife if you don't believe me. If she listens to this episode, she would be admitting this right now and saying, "You guys have no idea what I live with." It's not necessarily that having opinions is bad, but I think we need to recalibrate our thinking. We need to rightly assess the importance of the things that we have opinions about.  
  
We needed a little bit of triage: these things are primary things about which we cannot disagree even in the church, there are secondary things that matter for us to be able to associate together, and then there are other things, frankly, that we need to agree to disagree, and we need to love one another in it. I think 2020 has revealed the fact that we're not very good at doing that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think what we do is we marry convictions and opinions.  
  
Justin Perdue: We can't differentiate between the two.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm going to just say this upfront: I think the church has failed in shepherding and teaching people the difference between your opinion and biblical conviction  
  
Justin Perdue: And by biblical conviction, you would mean doctrine.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What I mean is the Bible says this is wrong.  
  
Justin Perdue: The Bible's very clear.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The Bible is very clear that this is wrong and this is right. Then in very complicated situations, we turn it into a theological issue when it really isn't; it's an opinion.  
  
Justin Perdue: Again, we are Christians who happen to be pastors, like you said earlier, but we're just talking as two believers here. I think 2020 has revealed the fact that we do, in a really unhelpful way, tend to over-spiritualize everything. We tend to make spiritual and moral issues out of things that are not inherently spiritual or moral. For example, I think of the things that we've already brought up this year, or that have occurred this year. I think the pandemic is maybe the best illustration of that in terms of how we handle things as a church. I know I've had a number of conversations in my own context with people who are really wrecked in their consciences over wearing a mask or wearing a mask in a church service or things like that. It's very clear that for these people, who are sincere and mean to trust and follow Christ, and are not being angry or sinful in their disposition, are just mega perplexed, troubled, and are concerned that they might be sinning by whether or not they wear a mask, or that they may be harming corporate worship or harming other people.  
  
It becomes this spiritual concern, at least a moral concern, in their minds. I think one of my tasks as a pastor—and I trust you feel this, too—has been to try to set people free from that kind of thinking in 2020\. To help them see that no, the wearing of a mask, for example, in a church service is not a spiritual issue. It's not an issue of fidelity to Jesus. It is not a moral issue. This is a common sense, love of neighbor consideration. I think a lot of times people just need to hear their pastor say that so that they can be set free. But that's one example of how we do turn things into a much bigger deal than they were ever meant to be.  
  
I think you're right. The church has not helped people do that kind of evaluation in their minds and hearts as to what's most important. What is spiritual? What is moral? What is something else that we can make decisions about and feel freedom to in order to make the best call we can and move forward with our lives?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Masks are just an example. The problem didn't happen because there became a mask mandate. The problem was already there.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. It just exposed it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. We're about to see a new round of issues with the whole vaccination.  
  
Here's a great example of what happens when the church is not careful: I would say, historically speaking, certain theological movements. I am legitimately getting questions from my church members who are covenantal. They love our church. They're part of the Reformed church. They're saying their parents, siblings, and relatives legitimately think that taking this potential vaccination could be like taking the mark of the beast—and that's not a joke. They're saying they're legitimately afraid. I love my dispensational friends—I've got a lot of them who listen to this podcast and I've got great respect for them—and they would deny that. They would get on the microphone and say, "No, that's not it."  
  
There are two things that break my heart about the pandemic and 2020 in general, and then there's something that makes me hopeful. What breaks my heart is that the church really is in a worse spot than we probably realized. For instance, there are underlying problems in a marriage, and it's not exposed until there's pressure put upon it, then the real state of the marriage comes out. I think the real estate of people's faith—their theological training, their view of the church, and their view of love for one another—is coming to the top because of the pressure that we're feeling.  
  
Justin Perdue: One initial reaction, and then maybe another thought alongside this reaction. One, praise God that Christ is our righteousness. We're not saved by our sound theology, we're saved by Christ. Praise be to His name.  
  
One of the things that I've tried to discuss with people—in having this conversation about not spiritualizing something or not moralizing something that isn't inherently spiritual or moral—is to help people understand that motivations do matter on the one hand. The objective reality of wearing a mask in a church service is not a sin and it's not a moral issue. Now, if we were being purely motivated out of fear of man, or if we were just really, really literally bowing the need of the government in unhelpful ways, letting them dictate to us the practices of our faith, then of course, those things would be cause for concern. But that's not what we're dealing with. It's not what people are encountering in their local churches week after week.  
  
Pivoting slightly in this, we were talking about this earlier: something that I think 2020 has revealed to us individually about ourselves, but is something that we've also seen in others, is we're all far more selfish than we would ever care to admit. We are very much attached to our own comfort. When those things are upset, when things don't go the way that I want them to go, when my rhythms are disrupted, and when I am not able to do the things that I just want to do—whether those are good or bad things, it's almost irrelevant—but when I can't do what I want to do, I don't handle it well.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Somehow we've equated Christian liberty with personal liberty. For someone who may not understand what I mean, Christian liberty means that we were underneath the tyranny of sin. We were a prisoner and we've been set free from that through the power of the Spirit. The master of our life is now Christ. We are slaves to Christ and that's a beautiful thing.  
  
Justin Perdue: And in him, we are free.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Paul says in Colossians not to allow anybody to basically put you back underneath slavery.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. He says the same thing in Galatians 5:1.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We take that and we then turn it into American freedoms.  
  
I'm going to try and say this in a thoughtful way. I appreciate what America stands for. I'm not proud of our history, but I'm proud of what we are trying to do. But how we have accomplished it—we're sinners; there is no nation under the sun that has ever done anything on a moral level that is pure and that is of God. If you want to point to a nation and say they've done it right, you're wrong. They don't exist. But somehow we then said our American freedoms are the same as basically our Christian liberty. The government is encroaching on our Christian liberties. I'm saying no, if you understand when Paul wrote Romans and what they were going through, it's nothing like what we're going through.  
  
Justin Perdue: One way that I might say it is that libertarianism is not in the Bible.  
  
I've said this before, too. I'm not trying to open up a can of anything here, but it's not that I see capitalism in the Bible or something like that either. I think there has been a tremendous confusion—and I've seen this in our local context and with Christians in our area—there's a tremendous confusion in Christian liberty and the Christian faith and libertarian thinking from a political perspective. Those two things are not one and the same. It's unhelpful when we blur those lines and blend those categories for sure.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And hopefully you hear the tone of what we're trying to accomplish here. We want to hold up a mirror and say step back a moment and reflect on whether you are looking at this from a personal preference. Have I stamped it with the Bible or am I truly allowing God's word to govern how I'm interacting here? Because I will tell you, the Bible is going to call you more to set down your own preferences a whole lot faster than they are for you to pick them up and defend it.  
  
Justin Perdue: I know this is a podcast that we talked about recording next year: how the energy in pietism is always focused inward on me, but the energy and the biblical Christian orientation has always focused outward on the neighbor. I think that we would all do well to remember that, too. What we need to be pouring ourselves into is into our brothers and sisters in the faith and to those in close proximity to us whom we are called to love and serve. If we would get over ourselves, on the one hand, and take up the theology of the cross, that we are called to die to ourselves and love others and serve others, we would do far better.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To totally jump in there, I do this a lot in marriage counseling, and I do this a lot in pre-marriage counseling. We tend to love people the way we think they should be loved. I think you should feel this from me and if you don't, then you're in the wrong because you didn't accept my love. Actually, if the person isn't feeling loved, maybe you should rethink what you're doing now.  
  
Justin Perdue: Maybe you should rethink them and try to understand them.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Exactly. Because typically, to love someone well, you actually do have to die to self. You have to be humble and you have to suppress preference. When I first got married to my wife, I didn't understand how many preferences I had and I clearly didn't see how many she had.  
  
Justin Perdue: You're talking about the thing that's underneath so many fights in marriage: it's this issue of preferences and the way that individuals tick, an unwillingness to compromise, and an unwillingness to do the hard work of trying to understand another person and laying your own preferences aside and saying, "No, I'm going to do what's good for him or her."  
  
Jon Moffitt: And we project. If I had a brother in Christ or a sister who said they were a Democrat, we immediately project upon them. You assume things about them instead of hearing them out.  
  
Justin Perdue: I aim to make this my posture. I'm going to go ahead and say that I think we all should aim to make something like this our posture when we hear something like that. In the conservative Reformed world, to say "I voted Democrat" is, in some contexts, a shocking statement. Rather than immediately concluding a bunch of things about that individual, we would be far better served and the church would profit if our posture was to humbly seek to understand our brother or sister who just made that statement. Let me see if I can listen to them well enough and take their concerns seriously enough.  
  
It's not just that they're made in the image of God and I need to take them seriously. I need to legitimately listen and take their concerns seriously enough that I could then articulate what they're saying and make good arguments for them. If I've done that, now I can respond and think and reason with you about why I made a different choice. Here's my first, second, and third reasons. We would be helped by those kinds of conversations rather than immediately jumping to these really reductionistic, unhelpful conclusions where we just write people off and we don't seek to understand them.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To be clear, if this is your first time listening to Theocast, to love someone is not to excuse sin. For instance, when the Father says to us as children, “I love you unconditionally,” that's because all that God cannot accept about us has been taken care of in Christ. When I say you love someone, that doesn't mean you have to wash over any sin.  
  
We had this conversation a couple episodes ago. If someone's absolutely demanding for me to accept their position on sexuality, and if I don't accept your position, they won't feel loved.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or that abortion is good.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To love someone does not mean I have to fully agree with them, but it also means that in certain areas that are not... this is what I said was so important in the beginning: the difference between preference and doctrine. Is this a doctrinal issue or is this a preference issue that I can set aside?  
  
Justin Perdue: We don't need to rehash old things and talk about politics, but I think the assumption should be made that you should assume good of your brothers and sisters. If somebody were to say to you, for example, "I did vote Democratic", and you understand that the Democratic Party platform is pro-abortion and pro-LGBTQ, etc., you should not immediately assume that that person was voting for that candidate because of those things but they were voting that way in spite of those things. To assume well of one another is something that we should do biblically and that we should seek to understand each other.  
  
You're exactly right that what we are not advocating for is to just dismiss it or act like it's not a big deal or to try to call something that's wrong as right. That's not what we mean. I think that needs to be cleared up immediately: we talk a lot about grace on this podcast and we get shot at on occasion as being hyper-grace guys. I don't have time to get upset about how that's a misnomer and you can't overemphasize grace biblically, but I think what exists out there commonly in the church is a misunderstanding of what grace is.  
  
Some people think that grace is a methodology in which we call things that are wrong right. No, grace exists because there is real wrong. We talked about this recently in one of our episodes on sin. Grace exists because there is real wrong and we all do it. We are in need of something that we don't have—namely righteousness. We can only receive that through the unmerited favor, the grace of God, applied to us by the mechanism of faith, as we look to Christ who has done these things for us.  
  
Anyway, I just want to kind of be clear on that for the new listener.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No, I think it's a huge point though. Grace covers our sins, but it does not excuse them.  
  
Justin Perdue: And it doesn't make them right.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We've done a lot of criticism and I want to help you think through some of this. What is the goal? You, me, and Jimmy—we all have opinions about a lot of things. We have opinions about things that are non-theological and we have very strong opinions on those. When it comes to being able to unify in a family, my wife and I have had to make compromises on our preferences because someone has to compromise—otherwise there can't be unity. You can't have two people wanting to go into opposite directions and assuming that you're going to walk step in step. Let me go back to Ephesians 4 where it says to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all meekness, patience, and gentleness. I think you can hold your opinion and even have a meaningful conversation with someone when it is presented with meekness and patience and gentleness. That does not mean passive. That doesn't mean passionless.  
  
Justin Perdue: It doesn't mean weak.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Meekness is not weakness. It means that you are being generous and kind and patient towards the person to whom you are engaging. Unfortunately—Justin, you and I have talked about this—there are churches who are just absolutely splitting right down the middle. It breaks my heart because the mission of the church should be one of unity so that the gospel can advance, so that sinners can find the light of Christ. What's happening is that the world is unfortunately looking at the church—very confused at the moment—and saying it seems like they are more passionate about something other than who they say they are, which is Jesus.  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to be careful on how I say this, but I think you're right. I think that in many situations in many church contexts, 2020—with everything contained therein—has been an occasion to expose the fact that our unity in the church doesn't run as deep as we would have thought. I think you have seen that many Christians are very ready to divide over things that are, honestly, tertiary issues of theological consideration at best.  
  
Just to be clear, there's primary, secondary, and tertiary—so we're talking peripheral stuff. There's a confusion of categories that exist for many, but people seem ready to divorce themselves from and divide from a local church context, where they seemed otherwise happy and content to be, because of these considerations. That's sad. I agree with you.  
  
The prescription for what ails us is to continue to herald Christ and his finished work and righteousness in the place of sinners, and to rally people around Jesus. There are a lot of things that we can get people geeked up about that are pretty good, but there's only one thing that's great and ultimate, and that is Christ and what he's done for us.  
  
Obviously, we've got to have doctrinal solidarity. There needs to be a confession that we would adhere to. We've got to agree about stuff to have a church together. But I think as pastors and as Christians who are members of local churches, we need to take it seriously that we are unified around Christ and around doctrine that really is clearly derived straight from Scripture. And we are willing to charitably disagree about other stuff to demonstrate where our unities actually lie.  
  
Personally, I'm fine to boast in what the Lord Jesus Christ has done by his Spirit in our local congregation. I am mega encouraged by the saints of Covenant Baptist Church and the unity that clearly seems to exist in our congregation. I'm thankful for that. That is certainly not because of me; it's because of what the Lord has done. I trust you would say the same thing and have, even to me today, in the midst of a year where—and this is not true in a lot of congregations—I'm very thankful that we are unified around the Lord Jesus Christ and are seeking, imperfectly but sincerely, to love each other and understand each other.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One other observation which we've mentioned a little bit but there's an additional thought I've had from other podcasts. I've never really been involved with politics very much—you probably more than me just from conversations we've had.  
  
And I realized I needed to be a little bit more aware. This year, I definitely engaged way more in politics than I have in the past just so I could learn how to shepherd my church better and make good decisions based upon what I think is about to come down the pipeline. One of the other things I discovered was—and there are a lot of reasons why and this is probably a whole other podcast—but unfortunately, again, it really makes me sad that a lot of Christians put trust in governmental systems for their protection and their spiritual journeys going forward. It goes as far as, "If America doesn't do things this way, then this is what's going to happen to the church." Listen, I am in no shape or form wanting to be underneath a persecuted state.  
  
Justin Perdue: We should not wish that upon ourselves. We shouldn't pray for that. We should pray that we can live quiet, peaceful, and godly lives.  
  
Jon Moffitt: But we should also not live in fear because God's church is not dictated by any human in the history of man. God's church will always go forward because, again, think about the title of it: it's God's church. Again, where I see this division that people have taken their political views and basically said that if you vote for this candidate, or if you hold these perspectives, then you are going to put the church in harm or in a compromising position.  
  
Justin Perdue: Which may be very true.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Well, it could make things different than they are now, but I don't ever think you can put the church in a compromising position because the world cannot dictate.  
  
I know what you meant.  
  
Justin Perdue: I meant just in terms of our freedoms to assemble.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. But the world cannot dictate the advancement of the church because that is wrought by the Spirit of God, not by any human.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen, brother. Just as I said earlier, we ought never pray for persecution. Never pray for trials. Those are things that God does ordain, but we are to pray in fact for peace and those kinds of things to reign. We would never sign up for persecution or never sign up for trials but if it does come our way, the Lord will use it. The Lord has grown his church through suffering for 2000 years. That is clear as day and we will endure and we will press on.  
  
I'm happy to say this even over the airwaves like this. I took some heat for some of the things that I wrote around the election encouraging charity and stuff like this. At the same time, I want to be really clear that our elders have led our church to try to, in a good way, submit to the authority that we're under in a Romans 13 way. At the same time, we live in a state where restrictions are being tightened back down and we've been very clear with our congregation that we have no plans of stopping gathering. We will be responsible but we're going to continue to meet. We do not understand that at this point we are at the place of civil disobedience, but it may come to that. And if it does, we will try to reflect well and think about all related concerns, but we want the people to know that the assembly's not going anywhere. The Lord Jesus Christ will build his church. We're just going to keep trusting him and keep being responsible.  
  
Jon Moffitt: 2 Peter says you're going to suffer. Don't add to it through your stupidity of sin.  
  
Justin Perdue: 1 Peter 4:1-4, don't be surprised when you encounter sufferings of various kinds as if there is something strange that is happening to you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Part of what Theocast is designed for, and really what this conversation is and where I want to lead it to for the next few minutes, is to encourage the person who lives in this constant state of fear. There's anxiety upon them that the government's going to collapse in on us and Christ's work is going to stop.  
  
Justin Perdue: It won't.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. I don't want you to say, "Well, great, Jon. You have that confidence." But I want you to understand that from a historical standpoint, we look at the church in the New Testament and we read about the persecution in the Book of Acts. They were underneath tremendous amounts of persecution and God...  
  
Justin Perdue: And the Lord grew their number by 5,000.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. When Peter's in prison and they're all praying and Peter shows up at the door, they ask, "What are you doing here?" He's like, "You were praying for me to be set free." My encouragement is that what we're doing—which is emphasizing the finished work of Christ, finding people who are exhausted by sin and leading them to find rest in Jesus, finding people who are exhausted by the evangelical train, pulling them off and leading them to trust in Christ—all of that is only going to increase and advance because that's the promise God gives us.  
  
Vote responsibly. Live responsibly. But put your hope in something that obviously is not founded on a government.  
  
Justin Perdue: Rather, the government is nobody's savior—and it is a poor one.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I don't want to say that in a condescending way. I want you to hear me saying the Bible actually does speak to this that our foundation is so solid in Christ. Actually, you look at persecuted countries right now and Christianity is exploding. It's thriving.  
  
Justin Perdue: We don't need to go into a history lesson here, but in the West where there have been more personal freedoms and liberty and the like, you see that Christianity is largely on the decline in terms of biblical, robust Christianity.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It used to thrive in Scotland.  
  
Justin Perdue: Yeah, and in Europe in general. In particular, you think of places like the UK and you think about America. Christianity is not doing well in terms of the robust, confessional, biblical Christianity in terms of numerical growth. But in other areas of the world where there is not as much liberty, not as much freedom... think about Sub-Saharan Africa, think about China. The church is growing like crazy.  
  
We need not fear about the growth of the church. As you said very well, brother, we put our hope in something that is solid rock, that is not ebbing and flowing, that is never changing—and that's the faithfulness of God.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Use the whole entire of the Old Testament and Israel as an example where God is using... and this legitimately is, the nation of God. God is their King.  
  
Justin Perdue: A legitimate theocracy.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And they fail miserably but God still accomplishes salvation.  
  
Justin Perdue: Not so much that it's the story of redemption. The people fail and God overcomes that failure and He's going to save His people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We are safe. The church is safe. It may not look like it did last year or the last 10 years, and we may not live in the comfortable state we used to live in. Obviously, we're all going to die some kind of death. It's not going to be pretty. But that doesn't mean God's mission and plan is not being accomplished. Nothing's going to stop Him.  
  
Justin Perdue: One other thought in reflecting on 2020 before we end the regular portion of the podcast: I think 2020 has reminded me and taught me anew of how much I love and how much I need the corporate gathering. Holy smokes. It was that season in time where we weren't meeting at all as a church because we don't own our own facility. We had no opportunity to meet anywhere for a period of time, then we met outside for a while, and have been inside since late October even with the COVID protocol and everything else. It is just so good to assemble and be together.  
  
This is my own personal opinion. I'm a pessimist by nature, but I think most people that I talk to or even those pessimistic like me think that a year from now, things probably look different in terms of our ability to gather and not have as many restrictions. Maybe sooner than that. I've really looked forward to the days to be able to gather without masks on, to see people's faces, and the rest. In the meantime, brother, it is worth it that wherever you are, whatever your locale and your state is requiring and all those kinds of things—that's for you and your elders to navigate—but it is worth it to gather.  
  
The Lord is the great overcomer. He overcomes every distraction that we bring in with us on Sundays. He overcomes our burdens and our sins. He can certainly overcome some masks. He can minister to us through the ordinary means of grace. He can meet us in our desperation. He can build us up, He can sustain, confirm, and strengthen us—and He does that. It has been a great privilege for me to gather with the saints of CBC in recent weeks, even inside in a new space, and I look forward to continuing to do that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Amen.  
  
Justin Perdue: Anyway, that's a few reflections from a couple of broken sinners, a couple of guys who are trusting Christ and happened to be pastoring churches, as we have been planning today for the future, but also reflecting on the year that's passed. It's a good thing for us to do as mortal creatures who are finite. As we worship and serve an infinite God, we look forward to the new heavens and the new earth. The fear and the thought of bad news, it just will go away. There will be no more bad news. There will be no other shoes dropping ever. We will be with God, and it's going to be epic.  
  
Anyway, we're going to make our way over now to the members' podcast. I trust we're going to do it here on site together. Who knows what we're going to talk about.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I do have one word. A little bit of a downer podcast. I think we're just trying to help people think through some things. My encouragement to this podcast is there are a lot of listeners I know who are really down. We get some very complicated emails. We do questions through social media.  
  
Justin Perdue: Some very transparent emails, too.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So transparent. My encouragement to the listener, and there are many people who are in between churches or their churches aren't meeting, and they hear Justin talk about his church and their thought is—  
  
Justin Perdue: Which is far from perfect by the way.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. And their thought is, "If I could have a tenth of that, you would feed my soul." I understand that and I feel that. My encouragement to you is that there is much to be done, and there is much that's going on. The frustration that you feel is legitimate. You are not alone. Justin and I can tell you that at one point, we all felt this anxiousness within us like something's off, something's wrong, and something needs to change. It's over a lot of pain and a lot of trial and a lot of circumstances that we find ourselves here today.  
  
I will tell you that there is a hope that is outside of your circumstance. The one thought I want to leave you alone with, when it comes to 2020, is that what we experienced yesterday is not tomorrow's hope. God tells us that this world should never bring you hope. Everything you have turns into dust. If I learned anything about 2020, it reminded me that there is no value in putting any hope in this world. My encouragement to you is continue to read, listen, and find a good church that will point you past this life and find that hope in Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: Who will bring you and resurrect you to eternal life with God, and who is gentle and tender and kind to you in the midst of your struggle and your pain, who entered into this wasteland called fallen earth and knows what it's like to suffer. He is not remote and distant in any way. And when we sin, his heart is moved with compassion toward us. He is not angry with us. He is not distancing himself with us when we struggle. If anything, he draws nearer. He loves us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: 2 Peter. Cast your anxieties on him because he cares for you.  
  
Justin Perdue: Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I'll give you rest.  
  
This is our savior. He does not break bruised reeds. He doesn't quench smoldering wicks. He is gentle and tender, and he loves us. So trust in Christ, pray to your Father in heaven, and continue to fight the fight in the Christian life as we move into 2021.  
  
With that, we are going to transition over to the members' area. We hope that it will be encouraging to you. If you don't know what the members' podcast is, you can find more information about that on our website, which is wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. We're going to have some updates to the website coming soon. Those are exciting to us. We hope that they are exciting and helpful to you.  
  
We are thankful for all of you who are listening, who partner with Theocast to spread this message of rest in Christ as far and as wide as possible. If you're not yet partnering with us, please consider doing so.  
  
Anyway, we're going to head over to the members' podcast. We'll talk with many of you there. We look forward to talking with you again in the regular podcast format next week.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-did-we-fail-2020-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-did-we-fail-2020/)

---

### The Implications of the Incarnation (Transcript)

*Published: December 21, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/the-implications-of-the-incarnation-transcript*
*Tags: Christmas, Incarnation*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-implications-of-the-incarnation/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hey, everyone. I am with Justin.  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, everybody.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It is going to be a unique podcast just because it's been a unique year. We gathered in Knoxville. We just did a podcast together—that will be coming out later—but today is a special podcast. Jimmy Buehler, pastor of Christ Community Church, Justin Purdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church, and Jon Moffitt—that's me—pastor of Grace Reformed Church. We got together with some of our dear friends from 1517\. Justin, tell us a little about that combo.  
  
Justin Perdue: For those of you who don't know, 1517 is a ministry of some of our brothers and sisters in Christ of a Lutheran persuasion. 1517 Christ For You. They have several podcasts of their own: 30 Minutes in the New Testament, 40 Minutes in the Old Testament. So we locked arms with our brothers Daniel Emery Price, Chad Bird, and Erick Sorensen to do a podcast about the incarnation and its significance. As you'll gather in the intro, it's six dudes around a microphone who all think they have something significant to say about theology. So you're going to notice that there are a number of guys who are clamoring for the microphone, in one sense, and we all are trying to offer helpful thoughts about the incarnation and why it matters for us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The reason we're clamoring is that we all love the subject. We can't talk about Christ enough.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen, brother. It's a wonderful time of the year and a lot of times, for Christians, Christmas is ruined by absurd notions like the birth narrative of Jesus is like _'Twas the Night Before Christmas_ Christian style. We want to talk about it from a more robust perspective that Christmas is about redemption and it's ultimately about what Christ came to do.  
  
We hope it's encouraging.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you want to know why there's noise in the background, you're going to have to listen to next year's podcast. Stay tuned for that. We hope you enjoy.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: Welcome to our 2020 Christmas extravaganza—the incarnation extravaganza. This is the brave attempt that we are making right here: six dudes who all think they have a lot to say about theology, all trying to talk to you about theology at the same time. We're going to try to behave ourselves.  
  
This is the 1517-Theocast mashup, but it's podcast specific. It's 30 Minutes in the New Testament, 40 Minutes in the Old Testament, and Theocast all together. We've never done this. We've been together before but we didn't record.  
  
I know I've been on Theocast, Chad has been on Theocast. Has Erick been on Theocast?  
  
Erick Sorensen: I have not.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: We have settled on the incarnation or the implications of the incarnation. This seems like a very appropriate thing to do this time of year.  
  
Jon, what's going on in the incarnation? Why is this a big deal? Why can't God just forgive our sins and we'll call it a good deal? Do we really need him to become man and go through all of this? To die and all that? Why not just say, "You know what? I'm feeling like I want to forgive. It's in my nature. I'm a gracious God. You're all forgiven. Done."  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of my favorite stories is Luke 5\. He's in the house, the friends lower the prolific man down, and everyone in the room at this point were packing this room out because they've already heard about Jesus and his miracles. This is also why these men are bringing the paralytic in. Everyone in the room is expecting Jesus to say, "You're healed." But he doesn't. What does he say? He says, "Your sins are forgiven." The Pharisees lose their mind, and they ask, "Who are you to say that you can forgive sins?" Then, of course, Jesus says, "What's easier for me to say: 'Get up and walk,' or, 'Your sins are forgiven'?"  
  
What I love about that entire story is that Jesus sets the tone straight saying, "I'm here to forgive sins. This is why I'm here. The miracles are purely just me fulfilling the prophecies of my role here." The reason why that becomes so important, of course, later on you will learn, is that Jesus can't forgive that which he hasn't paid for.  
  
The correction to most people's theology is Jesus came to be a good man or give good teaching, but Jesus became our imputation, became our representative. If Jesus does not become a man, he cannot pay for the sins of humanity. Without human form, he cannot take on human punishment.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: I love that the message given to Mary is, "You're going to have a son and he will save his people from their sin." This is the purpose behind him coming. Period. The first time John lays eyes on him, he doesn't say "There's my cousin," or, "There's a good role model," or even, "There's a perfect man right there. If you ever wondered what a perfect man looked like, there he is." No, he says, "Behold, the Lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of the world."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think another implication is it can almost seem like the birth of Christ comes out of nowhere. I've been really influenced by a book I'm reading that talks about how God tends to work—and loves to work—through the insignificant and small. Even as we think about the incarnation of Christ, he could have come with legions of angels to accomplish his purposes and yet, as we look throughout redemptive history, one of the authors that I'm reading said that often at the big turning points in history, what we find is a pregnant woman and a child of promise. That ends up being a linchpin in how God is working in the world.  
  
Even as we look at Mary and we think about the virgin birth—the miraculous birth of Christ, if you will—this isn't coming out of nowhere. We've seen this all throughout redemptive history. You have Isaac, the child of laughter. Nobody saw that one coming. We would not see a man and a woman who are very, very old having a child and yet, we get Isaac. Then we see Hannah who gives birth to her son who ends up anointing kings. Moses and his miraculous deliverance as a baby. Even John the Baptist and the miraculous things around his birth.  
  
Then we get to Jesus—it didn't come out of nowhere. This is a pattern that God has chosen to work in. What I love is that Christ comes on the scene in such a theology of the cross sort of way that it's not what we would expect, it's not what we would plan, and yet in the wisdom of God that makes us look like fools, this is how He has chosen to operate: through the Word made flesh to dwell amongst us. It's really beautiful and significant in the way that it shows us that God identifies with us and our humanness, our flesh, and the things that we deal with on a daily basis.  
  
Erick Sorensen: It's almost as if the Psalmist was inspired when he wrote that God has ordained praise from the mouths of infants and babies. It's almost as if he has been working that way all throughout history. We see even the disciples asking, "Why are you bringing children to Jesus?" Have you actually read the Scriptures where God is always working in this way? Through the insignificant, through even someone as small and insignificant as a baby? That's what we see especially in full culmination with Christ.  
  
To your point, Jimmy, when I think about the rest of the New Testament and that period of time, one of the implications of the incarnation is how this was so radically different from the way anybody was thinking about how God would interact with the world. Really, you didn't have room for it in Jewish life—of the idea of God becoming man—and you didn't have room for it in Greek life because of their view of matter being inherently evil. Yet here is how God chooses to interact: He chooses to become flesh; He chooses to deal with the same sorts of sufferings that we do, and the same sorts of struggles. This is why you have, for the first few hundred years, these great debates in church history because it just seemed so radically different than the way people thought they should approach God—and even more significantly, the way God approaches us.  
  
Chad Bird: Let me jump in here and piggyback off a couple of things that Jimmy said. I want to bring in one of my favorite church fathers, Irenaeus, and talk about what he has to teach us about incarnation. What you see already from Genesis 1, when God makes man in His own image, you see there what I think is a prophecy of the incarnation. Luther says that you see a dim intimation of God's desire to become one of us when he makes Adam and Eve in His own image. Already there, you begin to see the echoes that we're going to finally hear in full volume on Christmas day, because God makes humanity in His image and eventually the Maker will assume the image Himself.  
  
Of course, you have all sorts of allusions to God's desire to become one of us throughout the Old Testament. Everything from the messenger of Yahweh who appears—sometimes he's called a man, sometimes he's walking around and people don't even know that it's the messenger of Yahweh. They think it's just an average Joe Israelite walking by so they engage them in conversation. As one author put it, God is always trying on the clothes of the incarnation throughout the Old Testament. He's appearing as a man to His people—and that's another thing. This, I think, is one of the most beautiful, comforting things about the incarnation: it shows that God desires an intimate presence with His people. He doesn't want to be some distant hilltop or mountain top deity, aloof from humanity; He wants to be right in the thick of things. We see that in the Garden of Eden when He's walking around. We see that with a tabernacle—the tabernacle is smack dab in the middle of the camp of the Israelites so God actually wants to dwell in the midst of His people. He does not want to be far away. He wants to be near and accessible to them.  
  
Keeping all that in mind, you jump to the second century and to the writings of Irenaeus, and what Irenaeus does is he says that what we have in incarnation is Christ recapitulating, redoing, recreating, and fulfilling everything that happened before. He's not just the new Adam or the last Adam, as Paul calls him, but he is all humanity compressed into one so that what he does is recapitulate the history of humanity and of Israel. He not only does it over and does it perfectly, but he does it as the God-man. In that way, he brings humanity to the perfection that God always desired us to have, and we wouldn't have that without the incarnation. As some of the church fathers put it, we gain more in Christ than we lost in Adam because in Christ, we now have not only the perfect human, but we have the perfect human who is also at the same time God. That awesome Irenaeus theology when it comes to the incarnation, that Christ has recapitulated all things in himself so that when we see him, we see the human that God desires all of us to be, and that we become as we are baptized into His flesh and become one with Him.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: I do think that there's a really important point. How many times have you heard people try to explain to laypeople, or children, or other theologians what it means to be made in the image of God? They say, "It means you're creative or you have consciousness," or whatever. It's really quite simple: God formed man in the image of Christ. It's not like He just said, "Oh, I'm going to make this arbitrary thing, this form." And then eventually all come as that. God knows these things. You are made in the image of God in the sense that this is what you look like: Jesus. That's what you look like.  
  
Chad Bird: He is the image and we are made in His image. It's a very important distinction to make.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: Absolutely. What happens in the incarnation is that this is where the work of salvation really gets underway, because in the incarnation, because we are made in that image, and because God is the Father of Christ, Christ then is united to all of humanity in the incarnation right from the start. He isn't just another guy. His God is the Father and he has united Him to all of us in the incarnation.  
  
Justin Perdue: The gospel itself is wrapped up in the incarnation. I'm not trying to be the guy that comes in and overstates it, but I think for a lot of Christians that I've been around and maybe in my young life, the birth narrative of Jesus is like the Christian version of _'Twas the Night Before Christmas_. That's the significance that it bears: we read it once a year on Christmas eve and it's sentimental and it's meaningful in some way. But I think it's incredible to think that redemption is inextricably linked to God the Son taking on flesh. That's what we're celebrating in the incarnation at Christmas time.  
  
We love to talk about Jesus being our representative. He is only our representative because he became one of us; he became a man in order to represent men. We haven't talked about the Law yet, but I'm thinking about Galatians 4: 4-5, where we're told that Christ was born under the Law in order to redeem those who were under the Law. Men are born under the Law, and so he's born as a man under the Law in order to live a life of perfect obedience to keep his Father's every word and fulfill it for us. So when we herald from the rooftops that Christ is our righteousness and those kinds of things, we can only say that because Christ came and was a human being, and accomplished everything that he did in our place. This is a big deal. You can't overstate the importance of the implication of the incarnation.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: No incarnation means no salvation because no manger means no cross.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You can look at Genesis 3 when God promises the seed of Eve: "From you will come a seed." If you've had no knowledge of the Bible and you're reading it for the first time, your question is, "Who is that?" Adam and Eve lived in utopia, they destroyed it, God promises to fix it—how is He going to do that? The whole Old Testament leading into the New Testament is the anticipation of the incarnation of the one who's fixing that which man destroyed. It becomes the point of the Bible.  
  
Erick Sorensen: You think about how hard it must have been, or at least how challenging it could have been, for the early apostles to stand so strongly on this idea that Jesus really did become flesh. Yet if you read all of the writings of the New Testament, they just are not shy; they are as abundantly clear as they can be. How many times did we read, "We touched him," or, "We saw him," or "We heard him," or "We felt him." It's very, very fleshy. It's very, very tangible. They want to emphasize the Word became flesh. The author of Hebrews wants us to know that because God has become flesh, that God knows what it's like to even be tempted as we are, which is a complete mind-blowing thought—and yet, of course, a very comforting thought, which is why the author of Hebrews decides to mention that, and it's why it's one of the most quoted verses in my life. To think that God actually really does know the ins and outs of human experience in that way is so far removed from the way that we're naturally prone to thinking about the deity or the great God.  
  
Justin Perdue: Chad was talking about the nearness of God earlier, and you're picking up on that too, Erick, that God is not just distant and cold and disconnected from His people. He's not some desk spot sitting off in the heavens. He is personally involved in the lives of his people, so much so that He came and entered into this wasteland called fallen earth and experienced all of the pain, the suffering, the sorrows that we experience, yet without sin. It's a tremendous comfort.  
  
The Christ of Gethsemane is a comfort to people who are suffering and who are hurting because He knows our grief, He knows the anguish of the soul and the dark night of the soul and all those things. He's personally involved in our lives and knows our suffering yet He is without sin. He is the great and compassionate High Priest. He's gentle and lowly and tender toward those who are suffering and toward those who are in pain. None of that is true if the incarnation is not a thing, and praise God that it is.  
  
Chad Bird: It's worth making explicit, I'm sure, what all our listeners know, but it's one of those things that need to be said: God did not become disincarnate at the ascension of Jesus. The Son of God remains human flesh and blood. He has a body. People don't mean to hold a false opinion, but they just don't realize that they do. They'll think the Son of God came down from heaven and he became one of us, and then when he went back to be with his Father, he sloughed off his human nature because he didn't need it anymore. No. From the moment that the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and the Son of God entered into her womb, became a human being from that point forever and ever, God is fully human. The Son of God has assumed our nature and he has not and will never lose our nature. Right now we can say that a man sits on the throne of God. It is to a man that we pray, it is to a man that we appeal as our great High Priest. That is not saying he's not God—he is—however, he is fully human.  
  
As one of my favorite ascension hymns puts it, "Though has raised our human nature on the clouds to God's right hand." There we are with him because he has taken our humanity into himself. When we think about the throne of God and Christ at the right hand of God, a man sits beside God.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: You know what that does, Chad? This bothers me to no end. It gives you permission to talk about your own body, your own humanness, in a positive way. There are so many people that go, "I just can't wait to get rid of this stupid carton that my soul is locked in." Like you're going to become something altogether different. Paul says "Yeah, you're going to be changed in the twinkle of an eye, it's going to happen, but it ain't going to be that different." Don't get me wrong: sinlessness is a radical change, at least for me this is a big change. All of a sudden there is no sin; this will be quite a transformation. But it gives you permission to realize that what God initially said is very good. He intends to bring you back to that, not do something all over again where He is like, "You know what? That actually wasn't that good. I'm going to come up with a whole new thing." No, Christ comes and he takes on flesh. In that, he makes the human form something that we can then say, "You know what? That is good." It's flawed, it's marred, it's got sin, but that's what needs to go—not this weird gnostic idea where you can't wait until we all grow wings and play harps, and whatever it is that you think is going on. No, Jesus is God and God is a man at the right hand of the Father. When we are yanked out of our graves, we're going to have bodies and they're going to be very much these bodies.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If we're not too busy being Pelagian, it's because we're too distracted by being gnostic. If we're not too busy trying to achieve our own righteousness, it's because we're distracted trying to get into this spiritual nirvana. Frankly, I think that the incarnation really blows up both of those ideas, that the incarnation shows us that Christ has to come and live in our place and achieve that righteousness that we could never.  
  
One of my favorite stories in the gospels is Jesus with Thomas—classic doubting Thomas, nobody talks about doubting John the Baptist, but we'll talk about doubting Thomas all day—but with doubting Thomas, what is Jesus' solution? "Come here and feel the holes. Touch my side." Jesus gives us physical things, God gives us physical things that we can look to, taste, and touch.  
  
This is something I say to our church every week: "I've just told you for 30 minutes or so about God's great love and grace for you in Christ Jesus, and now you get to taste it in the form of bread and wine." We're not just these spiritual beings having this weird physical existence, but rather that God is the God of all—He is spirit, but He is the God of all creation.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: By the way, I want to defend Thomas. First of all, this is the Thomas that when Jesus said he was going to go heal Lazarus and everyone said they were going to die, Thomas is the one that says, "Let's go die with him." Then when he watches Jesus actually die, get crucified, be beaten to death, and be put in a grave, and then everyone is talking about how Jesus rose from the dead and Thomas says, "I need to see that," we all go, "What a doubter. Absurd lack of faith."  
  
Justin Perdue: Another big thing when Chad was talking earlier—it just came to mind—in thinking about the fact that the one seated at the right hand of God, seated on the throne of God, is a man: it's a big deal to use the language of Paul in Ephesians that we've not only been united to Christ, but we've been raised and we have been seated with him right in the heavenly places at the right hand of God. It speaks to just how incredible this redemption is. We as human beings, in flesh, the way that we have been united to the Lord Jesus Christ, and we'll be like him and will reign with him forever. We see it in our big brother, Jesus Christ; we see what our eternal destiny is. It's pretty epic. Just a remarkable thought that's, again, tethered to the incarnation, tethered to this Christmastime stuff. It's not just a baby in a manger. There's like eternal fallout and implications of all this stuff.  
  
Erick Sorensen: I can't help but think this as we're discussing. What we tend to do when we come across people that are suffering and going through hard times is we tend to emphasize a very true attribute of God's character, which is that God is in control. We say that all the time. "God is sovereign. He is in control."  
  
We don't deny that. We'd say amen. But I will tell you just from personal experience, and from close to 14 years of pastoral ministry, that when people are really suffering, I found the incarnation to be a tremendously comforting doctrine for people in the midst of hardship. It might be that it's good to be reminded of that, but I have found people really need to be reminded that God is the God who is with us, that God is the God who it does understand. He's not removed from the situation. I found that it's almost more impactful for people not necessarily to think about God being in control, because that's a mind-blowing thought that we really can't even understand because then that tends to just lead to more questions. "Well, if He is then why this, this, and that?" But God is with us. God knows what it's like to go through this. He suffered loss. He understands what it's like to be abandoned. That is a tremendous resource for comfort in the midst of life, in which we all will suffer and we all will face loss, just as Christ has done before us and on our behalf.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Even Christ in the garden: you can hear this language of anxiety even reaching out to the Father: "Is there another way this can be done? Let this cup pass from me." Then Peter in 2 Peter 5 says, "Cast your anxieties on him." I love the reason, not because it's wrong to doubt a sovereign God, and how dare you to question Him, but He says to cast your anxieties on Him because He cares for you. Let God carry your anxieties. How do you cast them on Him? You have to tell Him. "This is what makes me anxious. This is what makes me scared. This is what makes me nervous." He says God will carry that because He cares for you.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: I think you need both of those for there to be any comfort. If you just tell someone that God is sovereign and that He is in control, that's actually not comforting at all apart from a God who knows what I'm going through. If you say somebody has the power to help you but they don't know anything about what you're feeling, anything about what you're experiencing, they could help you but they don't relate to it at all. In fact, they're so high and above you. They could help you—maybe they will, maybe they won't. I think that the sovereignty of God is only comforting if you have a God who not only can do something about it, but that He knows what it's like. He's been there. This is not just a God who has power, but that can actually sympathize with what I'm suffering.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: A friend of mine and I were talking about this the other day, and he said, "God outside of Christ is terrifying." But when God comes to us in Christ, what we see is really this thing of beauty. In Luke 2, when Jesus is presented at the temple when Simeon holds him and says: "Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace, according to your word; for my eyes have seen your salvation that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel." I forget but I think it might be Rembrandt who portrays this incident, this moment, where in that painting there is Simeon, and he's afraid to hold or touch Jesus. There is such this sense of reverent awe that God would allow him to see His salvation—to physically see it. When Christ comes incarnate, he reveals to us the nature of the character of God. What's God like? Look at Jesus. That's what God is like. The person and work of Christ: that is what God is like.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: Isn't that something that Simeon would refer to Jesus in that way? "My eyes have seen my salvation." He doesn't say, "What this guy is going to do with my salvation," he just says, "That kid right there—that's my salvation." That's what that is. That's a pretty good name for Jesus: "my salvation". That's who he is.  
  
Chad Bird: Doesn't that tell us just about everything about God, that the ultimate theophany is the incarnation? The ultimate revelation of who God is as this little baby, or this man, or this victim upon the cross. A human being is the ultimate revelation of God; a human being who came to sympathize with our weaknesses, who came to bear our sins. That if you really want to know who God is, that's where you look. You don't look on Mount Sinai. You don't even look in Genesis 1, this great, powerful God who is speaking everything into existence. If you really want to know the fullness of who God is, then you look at the manger, or you look at the cross, or you look at everything in between. The final and the ultimate revelation of everything that God wants to know about us is found exclusively in this one human being.  
  
It's pretty phenomenal to me that that is the way that God chose to reveal Himself, and at the same time, it's revelatory of what God desires for us. Because if He shows us Himself in the incarnation, then He also shows us what His desire is going to be for us, that He wants us to be as Christ is—and we will be in the resurrection. We will receive the glorified body that he already has. So the incarnation is this revelation, but also it's a revelation of not just God, but of what God desires for us in the resurrection.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The sounds so different from what you hear during Christmas. Most of what comes from Christianity is our significance before God, and that is basically calculated by your performance. What you guys are saying is no, we're talking about the significance of Christ and what Christ has done in his person as a real human being; the significance of what Christ has done for us. We could do a podcast for three days and not come to the end of the significance of the incarnation of Christ. Our significance does not matter. What we have done or who we are this holiday season—it's meaningless when you think that compared to who and what Christ has done.  
  
Erick Sorensen: By the way, if I can just quickly give a plug for some of Luther's sermons, and I think you can find most of them online—just Google Luther's Christmas sermons—you will never find anyone who gets more into the incarnation than Luther around Christmas time in his sermons. They're just phenomenal. Check them out. I think most of them are actually accessible for free. Definitely worth reading as you ponder the incarnation this Christmas season.  
  
Chad Bird: If we're plugging books along these lines, if you've never read on the incarnation by Athanasius, I believe our listeners should read that. I try to read it every December. In fact, I need to pull that off the shelf and read it again. It's short. There's a volume out that has a very brief and very helpful introduction by C.S. Lewis. Check that out. It's one of the best things that I've ever read, and re-read, and then re-read again on the incarnation because he just brings out so much that we haven't even had a chance to get to about all these implications of the incarnation.  
  
Justin Perdue: When you trace the story of the Bible from Genesis as it unfolds, human beings are created in God's image, and through man, sin enters the world and the creation is cursed. Then throughout the Old Testament, God is unfolding revelation. The question that was alluded to earlier is who is this promised seed? This seed of Eve who is going to come and crush the head of the snake? Who is going to redeem humanity? Then Jesus shows up on the scene.  
  
Jimmy, the passage you read from Luke 2 is just so great, that when Simeon lifts them up and says, "My eyes have seen your salvation that you've prepared. He's a light for the Gentiles and for the glory of your people Israel," we see that this promised seed is here now. There were 400 years of silence and then an angel appears to a young virgin and says, "You're going to have a son and he's going to save his people." And he's here; the promised seed has arrived.  
  
Then as a man, he comes and makes atonement for sin. He takes upon himself our corrupt nature and all of our wickedness and all those things and atones for that, and bears the wrath of God for that. But then he lives a perfect life in obedience to God. Through a man, the curse is reversed; that great curse that was put upon all of creation, and creation is groaning—that occurred because of a man. Now the second Adam, the better one, came and reversed the curse. We sing of the second coming of Jesus Christ, than joy to the world. He comes to make his blessings flow far as the curse is found.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: That's one of the big things too. If you're into the church calendar at all, you know that some people get a little annoyed with this sort of stuff when they rebuke you for saying anything about Christmas during advent. Technically what you got is an advent, which is anticipation over the coming Messiah. You have Christmas, the arrival, and then we just live in perpetual second advent where we are now awaiting the return. Yet what the incarnation does, in conjunction with the resurrection, is waiting for the return of that body that came in the incarnation and then popped out of the grave, and it ascended to the Father. The advent that I'm living in now is only a thing because the incarnation is a thing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think the only positive side of Christmas is that it creates this anticipation in people; we're all looking forward to this day. Just turn that and say that anticipation you have—and then that letdown on December 26th—when Jesus comes back, which we should be anticipating and Peter encourages us to anticipate his return, there will be no letdown. It will be a glorious, glorious restoration of all things.  
  
I'm kind of a Grinch when it comes to Christmas, but that might be the one positive I take out of it: it is that anticipation.  
  
Daniel Emery Price: I think this has been a good conversation—maybe a little bit different than what people were anticipating for a Christmas special. We were talking a lot about the Old Testament, talking a lot about the second coming, the resurrection, and miracles. What about Mary? She needed to come up. Next year, we're going to talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary, so we decided to save it all for that next year. So that should be good.  
  
This has been fun. Maybe we'll make it an annual thing. We'll see how people respond.  
  
Merry Christmas, everyone.

---

### MEMBERS: Christ Is Enough...Now What? (Transcript)

*Published: December 16, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-christ-is-enough-now-what-transcript*
*Tags: Obedience, Sanctification, Spiritual Growth, The Church*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-christ-is-enough-now-what/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. We are glad that you're here with us. We are very thankful that you've partnered with us in this ministry to see this message spread as far and wide as possible.  
  
We were having great conversations, the two of us, even this morning and yesterday about ideas that we have for things. I know we say this a lot, but just resources that we want to be able to produce that we think are needed and would be helpful to many. We're not going to be able to do that without people partnering with us even financially, just because we need the resources to produce this stuff. Continue to partner with us in the ways that you have, continue to spread the word and encourage others to do the same. We're grateful for you.  
  
We're going to have, I trust and I hope, an encouraging, but certainly a lively conversation about the state of the modern church. What are we doing? We're not trying to be condescending; it's not like we figured it all out. We're not saying anything new. This isn't even our own idea. We're just picking up on what the Bible says and we're picking up on what saints have said before. If anything, we're just copying them. It's not like we're uniquely brilliant, but we look around and the thoughts on the part of some elderships and some church staff as to what they need to be doing on Sunday morning is just not good. We were saying, what is this, is this _Showtime at the Apollo_? Is this an amateur standup night? What are we doing?  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to find Luther and Calvin, and I'm going to sit them down when we get to our new home. Then I say, "Has anybody told you yet about this movement called the seeker-sensitive movement? Have you guys heard about this?" Then I want their commentary because it's going to be good. It'll be probably more sanctified from Luther because he'll be glorified at that moment, but if I could get Luther and Calvin's commentary, it would be my favorite thing to read. It would be unbelievable.  
  
Here's the thing: when you hold this perspective of the church and the gospel and the means of grace, that gathering becomes sacred. It becomes extremely important. For my own health, we were talking about being healthy before we hit record. We were talking about how we'll eat and exercise, and how we need to prioritize our lives in such a way that we stay healthy. That is how you should see the church.  
  
Unfortunately, the church doesn't understand its mission. The mission of the church becomes church growth: how big can we get? So the sermons, the music, the style, everything becomes about appealing to the culture so we can draw the culture in no matter what culture that you find yourself in. There's even cowboy church.  
  
My point is that the church is functioning as trying to draw a crowd, and we have been told that the bigger the crowd, the more successful, and apparently the more that God is blessing them. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that. Secondly, churches that would say that church growth and seeker-sensitive churches are bad—a lot of Calvinistic churches would fit into this. "That's bad. We shouldn't do that. We need to be preaching the word." I agree with you. But every sermon is the application of personal development; it's just riddled with pietism. So this is what dominates the world church, these two styles of churches.  
  
Justin Perdue: I trust that many listening to this would have seen for a long time that the attractional seeker-sensitive movement is obviously shallow and fluffy, and are trying to win the world through relevance, coolness, cleverness, and trying to help people feel better or whatever it may be. I trust many people have seen through that and I've seen the emptiness of that.  
  
The thing that burns me up even more at this juncture is, like you said, the pietism that is just rampant in the Calvinistic church where the reaction in that church is against easy believism, it's against nominal Christianity, and it's against the seeker-sensitive movement. The thinking goes, "We need church to be robust, and we need to take the Christian life seriously." So therefore, what the preaching, the teaching, the exhortation, and everything is built around how to be a mature and serious Christian, and they list the things one needs to do.  
  
A lot of times people in that camp would look at guys like us. Of course they're going to say that we emphasize grace too much, or they're going to say that we're antinomian, or they're going to say that there needs to be a seriousness and a weight to corporate worship, and there's no way you're going to be able to achieve that unless you do this. I just want to stand up and say they're wrong. Come to a service at Covenant Baptist Church or Grace Reformed Church or Christ Community Church; come to this and tell me that there is no reverence here. It is absolutely reverent. It is sober in every good sense of that word. People come in bearing the weight of their sin, and we acknowledge that from jump street. We talk about how much we struggle, the saint-sinner reality, and how needy we are. We don't hide any of that. We, having acknowledged those things, then are given the Lord Jesus Christ throughout the entire service. We preach the entire counsel of God's word with Christ at the center because that's where He is in terms of the revelation that God's given us. It's about Christ and what he's done. So that's what we preach.  
  
We take sin very seriously and we understand what in the world happened to us at the fall, and so we're giving people the only thing that's going to help them, namely Christ. Quit telling them to just do better.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What I think is interesting is that people say we don't give them things to do like practical application.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or they ask, "Where's the meat in the sermon?"  
  
Jon Moffitt: So I say, "Remember when I said that we need to love and care and show patience and kindness for each other? How are you doing with that? How's that going? You're doing well at home yet? Let me talk to your wife and ask her how she's doing."  
  
Justin Perdue: Brother, I'm with you with the exhortations all the time to love one another, bear with one another, be patient, show compassion, all this charity. How are you doing with that?  
  
Even more fundamental than that. I've preached several sermons lately because this is often where things end up going; I'm in the early chapters of Ephesians so naturally, it would go this way. I think it demonstrates a very narrow perspective. It's kind of myopic and there's a lack of awareness here. Some people think that the only thing that is application in preaching is something that is like talking to them about their job, or talking to them about fill-in-the-blank. Like you're a student and you're trying to relate to your teacher in class. It has to be that kind of stuff if it's really going to be application. Whereas, I think to reflect on the Scripture, to think at the level of implication, and to unpack for people the internal battles they fight... For example, this past Sunday, we we're in Ephesians 2 and we're thinking about the nature of grace, the nature of the gospel, and how we tend to short sell grace and Jesus in terms of what he does for us. How we so easily and subtly slip back into thinking in different ways, whether it's works righteousness or needing to be doing something to improve upon the love of God. It's as natural as breathing for us to do that.  
  
For me as a preacher, to take 15 or 20 minutes and unpack how we tend to think and how we tend to short sell Christ and grace, if that's not application for our hearts, then I don't know what application in preaching is apparently. Because if that does not matter to you, I don't understand your approach to the Christian life if you don't think that's practical. Jon, I don't know about you but I'm battling this—my standing before the Lord, my identity and my status and what's this life about, and me and my life—it's hard. How do I process that? Then I sinned again. Here I am. What is it?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Three passages, to go to your point of application. First of all, Ephesians four, walk in a manner in which we are worthy of the calling which we've been called. What's our motivation? Our salvation. Colossians 3, he says now that you've been chosen, this is how you are going to respond. Hebrews 12, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. What do we do? Pursue, set aside every weight and the sin that easily possess us, look to Christ. Then 2 Peter 1, he says whoever is lacking in these qualities is so near-sighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. So the motivation is always the gospel and the response to the application of the gospel is love within the local context of the church.  
  
What people are wanting us to do is feed their pietism. What we're trying to say is it won't work. We're going to show you that pietism won't do what you think is going to do. You think it will, but it won't do it. It's not going to work.  
  
Justin Perdue: In a context like ours, Jon, where the emphasis is Jesus, if people think I already spoke to how some will say that we don't take sin seriously, that's ridiculous. When people say that we don't preach against sin or that we don't try to show people the danger of sin, that's also flat out absurd. I can think of sermons that I've preached in the last few weeks where I'm trying to unpack, in poignant and helpful ways, the language of Paul.  
  
For example, in the early verses of Ephesians 2, this is what we were: we were dead, we were following the course of the world, we were following the prince of the power of the air, who is now at work in the sons of disobedience among whom we all once lived, carrying out the desires of the body and of the mind, and we are, by nature, children of wrath like the rest of mankind.  
  
Here's another one: we are slaves to our desires, cravings, and lusts. How that is true yet we've been liberated from the dominion of sin. Yet we as Christian saint-sinner reality, how often is this our experience where our flesh is craving something? We have a desire and it's terrible; we know it's wrong, it's causing us pain, and hurting other people. So I'm trying to unpack that in the pulpit, and you're telling me that we don't speak to the gravity of sin? Give me a break. We are absolutely trying to help people see how sin is terrible and it will never do anything good for you. This is how bad it is. This is how your flesh operates and you know what you need? You need Christ, you need grace, and you need the saints. Here we are together to acknowledge all this and to trust Jesus and to help each other.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To respond to that, I think that what they're saying is, "You're not using fear in order to fight sin." We're saying of course not, because Paul says when we walk by the Spirit, we will not indulge the flesh.  
  
Justin Perdue: And we've been given a spirit of fear. We've been given the spirit of adoption.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So it is faith in the gospel, it is faith in the finished work of Christ, and it's faith in our identity. That's what motivates us to keep fighting against the flesh.  
  
I have one last thing. You may not have time for this but I'm going to throw it at you anyways.  
  
The other thing that's really dividing the church off of its mission is this movement that's going on right now of "My American freedoms matter more". When we don't agree with them, they turn it into a theological issue of your political views on the mandates. Secondly, the thing that's dividing the church is the racial reconciliation. "If you're not making this the primary mission of the church, that the church must fix this issue within our culture and really in the world, then the church is off mission." Those two things, I think, are creating division and distracting us away from faith in the gospel and actually turning us towards what I think are men-centered.  
  
These aren't issues that you can fix by everybody coming into agreement. Here's my problem: people basically say, "If you don't agree with my form of this is what racism is, then you're not a Christian and you're against me." What should be causing unity in the body is causing diversity.  
  
Justin Perdue: On racial reconciliation and racism, I want to be very clear, as we've been many times, that racism is from hell. Racism only exists because of sin and Christians are to pursue justice. That is not optional. Now where I think this breaks down is that we end up taking this thing to the level needing to agree on public policy, or needing to agree on the methods with which we combat injustice. Christians with the same goal may very well disagree in terms of the best way to go about fighting injustice. We can agree at the level of principle and biblical truth in terms of the image of God and the dignity that every human possesses, and how there are all kinds of implications for how we love and treat one another without turning something that is inherently political in our day into the focus of the church.  
  
Then the other piece: the mask thing. I think it is a great example of how people have not been taught well in the church, how we tend to over-spiritualize everything and turn it into a theological and moral issue when it's not. One, there is no verse in the Scripture that would speak directly to wearing masks in our local church context right now. When Paul writes about unveiled faces, he is not at all talking about this and it is not a slap in the face to the Lord Jesus. It is not us bowing the knee and being ruled by fear of death and fear of man that we would wear a mask in church right now. We're doing it out of concern for love of neighbor.  
  
For some of us, like my church, we're doing it out of respect for the people that we rent the space from. We're being good tenants. We're trying to make those who are most vulnerable in our midst feel as safe as possible. If we were being motivated by fear of death or fear of man or whatever, then sure, maybe we could have that conversation about it. We shouldn't be motivated by those things, but for the people that are trying to turn the wearing of masks into a theological or moral issue, brother or sister, sincerely, I think you're misguided. I think you need to have your conscience trained according to Scripture. This is something that we can do. We can lay down our liberties for a period of time, for the sake of our brothers and sisters, so that we can be together—because my goodness it's worth it to gather.  
  
I really wasn't riled up, in one sense, about those things because I want to be pastoral in how we think. Because these issues are serious for all of us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What I meant was you were obviously upset with the confusion and the damage that it's causing right now.  
  
Justin Perdue: I agree, brother. I care a ton about this and I've had a number of conversations with members of our church or visitors to our church lately about mass policies and how we are thinking about it as pastors and all of this stuff. It does matter a lot. And. We want to love and shepherd people in our own context as well as we possibly can, with respect to every issue, including these.  
  
Good conversation. We're kind of here, there, and everywhere in this members' podcast, but you get our thoughts on pretty much everything and you may not agree.  
  
I just wanna be really clear. You may be a listener to Theocast and you might not agree with my personal take on how we should go about some of this stuff, or Jon's personal take, and that's the point in some ways—but it is that we have Christ in common. We understand that he is who we need and we agree about why we gather and what we need to do in the gathering. That was really the point of this conversation: keeping the main things, the main things, and how sadly in many churches, it doesn't seem like that's happening. We say that humbly and charitably, and we pray that God would continue to work in those churches.  
  
Anyway, thank you for listening to us. We hope that some of this at least has been encouraging and edifying to you. We're grateful for your partnership with us, as we always say. We mean that sincerely from our hearts. We couldn't do what we're doing without you. Thank you for your ongoing partnership with Theocast. It is not lost on us.  
  
We pray that you would continue trusting the Lord Jesus, that if you're not already in one, that you would find a local church where you're given Christ on Sunday and where the saints will love you, and you can love them in return.  
  
Until next time. Thank you from Jon and I. We will speak with you guys again next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/christ-is-enough-now-what-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/christ-is-enough-now-what/)

---

### Christ Is Enough...Now What? (Transcript)

*Published: December 16, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/christ-is-enough-now-what-transcript*
*Tags: Obedience, Sanctification, Spiritual Growth, The Church*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/christ-is-enough-now-what/)**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. If you've been listening to Theocast for any period of time, you might be tracking with us in some of the things that we talk about regularly. You're thinking, "Guys, yeah, I agree with you that Jesus really is enough. He has accomplished my salvation and there's nothing that I need to do to contribute to them. And I'm tracking with you guys too, even with respect to pietism—how in so many contexts, the Christian life seems to be the focus instead of Jesus. Alright, I'm there. But now can you guys help me because now that I understand that Christ has done everything, what is it that I need to concern myself with doing? Can you give me some handles with respect to the Christian life and how to approach it from this confessional Reformed perspective?"  
  
If that's where you are and you're wrestling with those things, this podcast today is for you. Some of you, in listening to what we're going to say, might think, "I don't really know how to apply these things in my local church context." We're going to talk a little bit about the state of the local church and we do that especially in the members' area; that's kind of what we see in terms of the church context in our modern setting. We hope that these things are helpful, that they're clarifying, and we hope that they're encouraging and we hope that it helps you all the more to see your freedom that you have in Jesus and the rest that is yours. Stay tuned.  
  
So we get a lot of interaction here at Theocast from our listeners, which we're grateful for. There are a lot of people who write to us or leave us voicemails or communicate with us in various ways. They'll let us know that they're encouraged by things they're hearing on the podcast, that they are tracking with us on the sufficiency of Jesus and the fact that he is enough to save them, and that his finished work stands outside of them and they can trust him and they can rest in him because he has accomplished their salvation. They're with us completely on that. They even are beginning to understand categories of confessional theology versus pietism. They agree that a lot of what exists out there in the evangelical world is focused on the Christian, not primarily on Jesus, and they're saying, "You guys are right about that. Something's off. I've noticed this and you're putting words to my thoughts and words to my observations. I'm with you. So guys, help me. Now that I'm tracking, and now that I'm there, and now that I have seen that Christ really is enough—he is mighty and sufficient to save me and I'm there—now what do I do now that I know that Christ has done everything? What do I do?"  
  
One way to rephrase that question is people are asking us, "What are the things that I should pursue? What are the things that I should give attention to and prioritize in my life now that I have come to this kind of Reformed, theological, biblical understanding of the nature of Christ's work and the nature of salvation?  
  
We were talking on the phone yesterday, Jon. I was on my way home from a meeting and I called you, you called me back, and we were talking about a few other things, but then this came up. We had several listener questions around this area, and we thought we should record this tomorrow, this "now what" conversation.  
  
We're going to aim to take a less-is-more approach. We're not going to give a long list of stuff that people need to be doing. We're going to really hammer the main things from our perspective.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think there's a shift in thinking from when you're a pietist—you're afraid you're not doing enough. Then when you leave pietism, you're afraid you're doing too much. So there's this pendulum swing of either doing anything feels like pietism. So the question is: what am I supposed to do? There's a fear of doing something wrong—and I understand that perspective. I've been there. There are a lot of people; you're not alone at all when you're having these struggles.  
  
Really this conversation, I would say—if I were to rephrase it—we're changing what you pursue as a Christian. So before, you were pursuing status and assurance with God and you were pursuing identity. You're also pursuing personal development. That became your pursuit: it's all internal, it's all about you. Now that you're realizing that all of that is secure in Christ—your identity, your status, the benefits of Christ—all of that goes to you by faith.  
  
Justin Perdue: All the spiritual blessings that we've been given, our final salvation is secure, we have peace with God now and forever. All of it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So what you use to pursue, you look at it and it's finished: it's done, it's over, it's built, it's completed. You hear it and you hear this. Now you're thinking, "What am I supposed to do now?" So, we're going to change; we're going to shift your priority. Really this is not a "now what" question. It's not now what you do, it's we're going to change your priorities because your priority was you and your standing before God. Now that's secure, we're going to show you how Scripture gives you your priorities, gives you the "now what".  
  
That's how I would set us up. Justin, what would you say would really be the priority shift or the priority change when you leave pietism and you walk into resting in Christ? What becomes our priority?  
  
Justin Perdue: It's a paradigm shift. Like you've said, it's a recalibration of thinking because everything that we've been told does center on us and our individual pursuit of the Christian life. We're chasing after any number of things, like you've already alluded to, unashamedly, and we're going to unpack this for the rest of the episode, basically.  
  
I'm going to say this in a very simple way that's going to sound very broad. We're going to talk about it and nuance it and talk about some things underneath this. Once you know that Christ is enough and that we have rest in him, we're safe and everything's been accomplished, your priority shifts from yourself to the body of Christ. It shifts to the church, the local church, and there are a number of things underneath that that we want to talk about. What we are going to be encouraging people to do today in an ongoing way, and for the rest of their lives, is to build your life around a local church where Christ is heralded, where the saints are building one another up in love and are stirring one another up to love and good works. It's where the mission of Christ is being accomplished in seeing the saints built up into maturity, and we're seeing the mission of Christ being accomplished as the gospel is advanced. Unashamedly, at the risk of sounding silly, build your life around a local church where Christ is heralded and where the saints are building one another up in love.  
  
Right now, Jon, let's unpack some of those things. It sounds reductionistic and absurdly simple to people that are thinking, "There has to be more to it than this." What I think has happened in the minds of many people is that we have not really understood very well what the church is. We have not really understood very well what the local church is about and for, why we gather on Sunday, how we are living our lives with one another, how the Lord uses the brethren, the saints in our lives—all of that. Let's tear up. This is going to be, I trust, an encouraging, edifying, and liberating conversation for people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Pietism is hyper-individualism. You yourself pursuing these goals. The rest of Christ comes in and what happens is that after the gospel transforms your heart and your mind, and you're resting in Christ, you are then transitioned into something that's very contrary to our nature, which is communalism—we become part of a communion. Even the word communion means common union. It Is where we get the idea when we gather around the table as those who are unified in Christ.  
  
A couple of passages—I want you to hear this. Paul says before Christ that he was a good Jew, and he described all the things he was doing right. Then in Galatians 3, he transfers it and says we began by the Spirit, we're trying to perfect ourselves by the flesh—that is contrary to Scripture. Then he gives us two other examples: Ephesians 4 and Colossians 1\. He literally does the "now what" moment. You're safe in Christ, now what? So this is right after the first three chapters of Ephesians. If you're familiar with it—glorious election, sovereignty of God—it's beautiful. So this is what he says in Ephesians 4:1: "I therefore, a prisoner of the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to what you have been called." What is he referencing? The first three chapters. He continues, "with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." So his initial reaction is to walk worthy to what you have received. He immediately does what? Community. He requires you to be patient, kind, loving, and bearing with one another for the bond of peace.  
  
He does it again. Let me read this to you in Colossians 3\. At the end of chapter two, he names all of the ascetic work that people are trying to do to control the works of the flesh. By the way, he completely stomps on individualism at the end of chapter two. He moves into chapter three, looking under Jesus, seated at the right hand of the Father. This is what he says in response to the gospel after we've understood, we walk by faith in Christ. He says this in chapter three, verse 12: "Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you will also must forgive." And then he says this: "And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony."  
  
Two times he tells the church the response to your salvation and your security in Christ: it is to then forgive, show love and kindness, for the sake of peace and harmony and unity. Where? In the body of Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to read some more Bible and because I just think this is good to do. Then what we can do is continue the conversation underneath all these wonderful things that the apostles wrote. I'm going to pick up in Ephesians 4 a little bit later after what you read because it's beautiful. Paul speaks to how there are gifts that are given to the church—apostles, prophets, teachers, shepherds—and they are given as gifts from Jesus Christ for the benefit of the body of Christ and for the upbuilding of the body. He talks about how those individuals—the apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers are given by Jesus "to equip the saints for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and for by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes."  
  
Then this: "Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ," so we're to be conformed to the image of Jesus in the church, "from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love."  
  
So the Christian life is clearly a corporate exercise. Sanctification is a corporate exercise. Maturity and being built up is a corporate exercise. You can't do this by yourself. I'm thinking, too, about Paul and the letter to the Corinthians: 1 Corinthians 12\. He'll talk about how every member of the body has its function. We all do different things and every part is honorable. Then in 1 Corinthians 13, that wonderful chapter on love, he talks about how the most important thing that could ever happen in the body of Christ is that we would love one another. Then we have even in the letter to the Hebrews in Hebrews 10\. Let me flip over there.  
  
Jon Moffitt: While you do that, let me read 2 Peter real quick. 2 Peter 1, he gives the glorious promise that the power of Christ is the one who comes in that saves us and then transforms us when we trust in the power of Christ. Then Peter says this in verse five: "For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." So think about Peter saying the same thing. He's saying this is your response to your rest in Christ. What is he concerned about in being ineffective? Ineffective within the unity and the peace and the bond that happens within the body of Christ. Because going back to what Paul says in Ephesians 4, when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love. And if you aren't playing your part, you're not being effective in encouraging and building each other up.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's right, and that is the mission of the church. Like we've already alluded to, the mission of Christ is that we would be built up into maturity and that the gospel would advance through the church. If we're not participating in that, then in that sense we're not participating in the mission of Christ on earth.  
  
Let's continue here. Hebrews chapter 10, beginning of verse 23, "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful." That's a wonderful objective truth. We're confessing these doctrines. We're trusting in Jesus. "And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." Assemble, stir one another up, hold fast together the confession of our hope, namely the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. We do it together.  
  
Galatians 5\. This may be the last one—we could do this all day, but we're just going to try to prime the pump here with some Scripture just to demonstrate that this is not our own idea. We're getting this from the Bible and Christians have talked this way for 2000 years.  
  
In the famous passage from Paul in Galatians 5 on the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit, after he writes about those two respective things, he says if we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. And people go, "Oh, that's a big deal." What does it mean to walk by the Spirit? What does that even entail? Paul continues immediately after that, "If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." So immediately when he's thinking in these categories of walking in the Spirit, he talks to corporate realities of how we live with one another: not being arrogant, not envying, not provoking, but restoring people and bearing one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. You want to know what God wants you to do? You do that in the context of the local church, in the context of your brothers and sisters, and you're doing this for one another.  
  
We were talking before we hit the record button, Jon, and I'm sure we're going to unpack this more, but you begin to live in community. You said it this way: in community for the sake of the community—and I agree. You live in the church for the sake of the body of Christ. You no longer become so me-focused, you're not just looking at yourself all the time. You're actually trusting Christ absolutely, but looking outside of yourself to Christ. But you're also looking away from yourself and to your brothers and sisters, to your neighbor, and your concern now for the "us" or the "we" reality of the body, not so much just "me". It's a complete shift in focus and emphasis.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would even go to Ephesians 5\. This is often used as a scare tactic from angry preachers who basically says, "grieve not the Holy Spirit". They use that as a "you better not keep sinning because if you do then the power of the Spirit will leave you." No, he is talking to the church. He's saying the power of the Spirit among the body. "If you guys don't listen to what I'm telling you to be loving and kind and merciful and gracious, then this is what's going to happen." The Spirit of this "building you up" will be quenched. It's not a fear of losing your salvation, it's a fear of the work of Christ not being accomplished—and I think there's a lot of churches out there where the work of Christ isn't being accomplished because there's so much division. I know of two churches that unfortunately have had to close down because of disunity, because of division within it. So the Spirit of Christ is no longer working there and that's really sad.  
  
But I will say this: what's happening is that you are having an identity change. Justin and I both have had two identity changes physically in our life. When we first got married, we went from being single and doing everything for ourselves to then being connected to an individual to where we became one. So when we introduce ourselves, we wear a ring to identify with this new person and we announce ourselves to be one with this person. I am married and I have a wife. So when I meet someone new and my wife's standing next to me, I introduce myself and then I introduce my wife. Why? Because she's part of my identity. And then when we had children, we went from being married to parents. So now my identity, everything I think and do and say, it's all in relationship to my family. I do them as a dad, but I never think about life outside of my marriage and my children. It changes the way I think so the identity has changed.  
  
Justin Perdue: I said I was done with the Bible, but I lied about that. Last unpacking, very briefly, of a couple of things that I've written. You mentioned Ephesians 5 so I was just glancing at it. At the beginning of that chapter, Paul says, "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children." So you're now children of God. Seek to imitate your Father because this is who you are now. But then he says, "And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." So walk in love, consider Jesus and how he gave himself up for us. Then he goes right into, "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness, etc." What is he contrasting? He is exhorting us to walk in love and to live lives that are characterized by, dare I say, dying to ourselves and loving others. That's what he's saying. Walk in love and don't be selfish. Don't be all about you. Love your brothers and sisters. And what is sexual immorality, impurity and covetousness? What are those things about? They're about me. They're about me doing what I feel like doing. They're about me doing what I just want to do or me doing what I crave, and not considering my brothers and sisters. I just don't regard them. I do what I want to do and everybody else just needs to get out of my way and be okay with that. It doesn't matter who I hurt.  
  
That's what Paul is exhorting us to: love one another, consider others as more important than yourselves, live a life that is characterized by denying yourself for the good of your brothers and sisters. This is not monkery. This is not asceticism. You are living a life that the focus now has shifted from yourself to the good of the saints, and the good of the church, the good of your brothers and sisters. I think that's a more realistic and faithful way to understand what the apostle was exhorting us to, rather than going off on a rant about sexual purity for the sake of sexual purity.  
  
Yeah, you need to be sexually pure and you need to avoid immorality and you need to avoid covetousness because it harms not only you, it harms everybody around you, and it dishonors God.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Two things I want to add to that. One is, I love asking this question and I ask it all the time, can you think of a sin that only affects you and no one else?  
  
Justin Perdue: No.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. The answer to that is no because anything that you do, even if some people think it's just lust or just laziness, I can promise you I can show you how it affects others.  
  
Your lust or your laziness or whatever that you think is just so private, however you think on that or act on that that you think is private, it will inevitably affect everybody who is close to you. It will affect everybody who loves you. I say this kindly and humbly, but you are naive and foolish to think that there's any sin that you would be engaged in that is purely private and is only harming you. It's not true.  
  
I don't know if this is where you were going to go. If not, we can go there after I say this. I've seen this happen where we start well, and we start pure, and we want to do this biblically. And then it turns into legalism where people are judging you for not showing up to church and you're not doing enough and you're not involved and we're not thinking about people's circumstances. What prevents us, Justin, from turning this into legalism? What is it that's been handed to the church that really governs this love and governs this responsibility that's been handed to the local church?  
  
Justin Perdue: A few things, if I'm going where you're going and we'll unpack these, that have been given to us that are primary in the life of the church. We have the Sunday gathering in which the ordinary means of grace are a thing. Then also we have this clear emphasis of the New Testament toward love and unity and restoration and forgiveness and all those things. But let's start first with the means of grace, because there are probably people listening to this podcast who are anticipating us saying something about this—and that's great. When people ask the question, "So what do I do now? Surely it can't be as simple as you guys are saying in terms of just needing to build my life around a local church, being present on the Lord's Day and partaking in the means of grace and living life in the community of the saints." I agree with you—I think that's all good, but surely there has to be more to it than that.  
  
I guess my short answer to that is as we come to a more robust biblical understanding of the means of grace and the life of the church together, we understand how that drives literally everything else in the Christian life. The means of grace and life in the church, life amongst the saints, drives everything in the Christian life to the extent that if you prioritize this appropriately, everything else tends to take care of itself. Not to be reductionist or to overly simplify this, but it's true. If we have a biblical understanding of the means of grace, how God has promised uniquely to show up and minister to His people when the church gathers, and these means of reading, giving attention to the public reading of Scripture, giving attention to the preaching of the word, and how God has promised throughout the entire Bible to use His word to accomplish its work, and how even our faith comes by hearing the message of Christ. Also, singing Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to one another, praying about everything as a gathered church, coming to the table to participate in the body and blood of Christ, to witness baptism through which we have been baptized in the Lord Jesus and united to him.  
  
As we do these things together, the Spirit of God uses those things that are ordinary to accomplish all of his extraordinary ends in our lives. Our faith is sustained, our faith is confirmed, our faith is strengthened, faith is imparted to those who have not yet trusted the Lord Jesus through these means by the Spirit, and we are grown in the faith over the course of weeks, months, years, and decades. We are grown by regularly being a part of the body, coming in faith as one of the saints to receive from God as He uses these means in our lives. We can't overstate the significance of the ordinary means in those ways.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm just going to go back to Ephesians 4 when he says when the body's functioning properly, what does it build itself up in? It says love.  
  
Justin Perdue: Unto maturity.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. He says he gives teachers and preachers and prophets for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry. Who's doing the work of the ministry? The people are. And when they do the work of the ministry, what ends up happening is they build themselves up in love. What we learn, and this is why we emphasize this because the church rightfully so has been emphasizing this for years, we use the word "means" in "the means of grace" in which it's a way in which it comes to you, and what is coming to you? Grace.  
  
If a church is centering around grace, and that's what the ministry becomes as we are considering how to build one another up by receiving grace as our motivation, and then giving love in response, also we're giving grace. Patience and kindness and mercy and meekness are reflections of grace.  
  
Justin Perdue: We're receiving grace and in a more pointed way, we're receiving Christ because Christ is God's grace to us. As we receive Christ in the means, what are we then giving one another? We're pointing and giving, in one sense, Christ, and grace and love and mercy and all these things to each other.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If we're appropriately using the means—which is the preaching of Christ weekly, the administration of Christ through physical means, which is the sacraments and baptism, and we're gathering together to depend upon God and prayer—everyone equally understands that we have not, unless it comes from God. That is what's going to prevent a church from becoming divisive and turning church into legalism.  
  
I have been part of these churches. Many people have. Every time they walked away from church, it's nothing of grace. It's not a means by which Christ has administered to them. They walk away with a to-do list, filling down, and completely drowning in pietism and legalism. So if that is the church context you're in, I can understand when you hear us say "now what", and we point you to church, you're thinking, "no way."  
  
Justin Perdue: I know I can speak for Covenant Baptist Church and I know I can speak for Grace Reformed Church as we sit behind these microphones today. The understanding that we have of the Bible and the Christian life, in a pointed way, even the saint-sinner reality, and how we are always in need of grace. We, even as regenerate, born again people, we still live in a fallen flesh and so we are not able to do as we are all the time. We are regularly sinning, we're grieved by that sin, we battle all kinds of things, things wage war against our faith, and we struggle to trust Christ; we struggle to believe God.  
  
So what do we need when we come together on Sunday? We need to be reminded of our need, we need to be reminded of our sin, we need to confess that together, we need to ask the Lord to forgive us, and then rejoice in the fact that we are absolved and forgiven; we're absolved of all guilt, we're forgiven, and we're counted righteous in Christ. Praise God for that good news.  
  
Then we need what? When we open the word, the center of our services are the word and sacrament. When we open the word and we come to the table, what's all that about? Ultimately we need to be given Jesus every Sunday. That's what a legitimate ordinary means understanding is centered upon—it is the fact that the entire Christian life is built upon Christ and his righteousness, and we need to be fed that on a weekly basis. We're fed that through the word and the Table primarily. When we say build your life on a local church, we're just going to be very clear: we're saying build your life on a local church where this is happening, and where you come on Sunday not to be told necessarily what to do—though of course, you're going to be exhorted and encouraged and challenged in ways—but you come primarily knowing that you're a sinner in need of Christ, and you know that you're going to be given him. You're going to be reminded of what's true. You've forgotten the gospel this week and you've blown it through your sin this week. You need Jesus on Sunday, and that's why you're there. You're gathering with a group of people who are there for the exact same reason—and that is how the body is speaking the truth to one another, exhorting one another, and building one another up in love as we all look to Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to also put something into perspective as well. This context that we're speaking of is not only where we give love, it's not only where we are built up and encouraged, but it's also where we are established in the faith, where it's not only the knowledge of Christ but our foundation. Let me go back to Ephesians to show this to you. 4:12 says, "to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the statute of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes." Then he says, "Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ." Not only your faith, not only your ministry, but your ongoing knowledge and foundation is structured and maintained within the local body. What I struggle with a lot is that people assume it's their responsibility to increase their knowledge and their foundation. Actually, Paul says to prevent you from being carried about by every wind of doctrine, the church is designed to educate you and strengthen your faith. This is why you need to be at a good Bible teaching church that has strong doctrine and a good doctrinal foundation.  
  
This is my second thought; I'll let you decide whatever you want to do with this: I think it's harder to love your neighbor in the context of a local church than it is to do your personal Bible reading and prayer time. We emphasize personal Bible reading and prayer time as if that's the crux of the Christian life. I'm arguing the crux of the Christian life is to love and to care for your brothers and sisters in the body of Christ. I guarantee you that's harder to do, and you're going to need Christ more to accomplish that.  
  
Justin Perdue: I agree with you. I don't know that I've got a lot to pile on and add. I agree with your comments about the need of being in a local church that has a solid doctrinal foundation. To read your Bible on your own is a very fine and good thing to do given, here's the caveat, if you are in a context where you are being taught faithfully from the pulpit every Sunday, and you have pastors in your life that are teaching you doctrine and theology, that are giving you a framework with which you can understand your Bible. The exhortations in the New Testament about the ministry of the word are all corporate. Even what you're referencing right now in Ephesians, it's very clear that Jesus has set the church up in a particular way, and he has set certain people apart to do particular things in the church so that we would be built up in our understanding and unto maturity.  
  
So to think that we on our own are going to build ourselves up into maturity is to swim against the current of the New Testament, and is to push back against the apostles, and even to push back against Christ himself, who has given these gifts to the church. We need the church. Anything that we're doing on our own is a supplement to the main thing or the crux of it, as you put it, Jon. The crux of the Christian life is the gathered church and life in the body where we are loving one another, bearing with one another, helping one another, and encouraging one another. Then alongside that, we're going to be driven by those corporate realities in our private lives. We tend to reverse that relationship in how we think.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Here's another thought: to have knowledge and not apply it is a waste of the knowledge. The Bible describes it as knowledge puffing up; knowledge not applied is useless. It actually just creates pride.  
  
What bothers me is that I know people who are students of the word, and they know their Bibles in and out, but they are the most mean and divisive. They get on the internet and they just want to pick fights with people. I look at that and wonder how it is you could know so much about God's word? I guess my response to that is some people don't know any better. No one's ever told them. No one's ever taught them that this is not the design of God, which is going in theological debates on the internet and not loving your brother and really getting involved in a local church. I will tell you this right now, Theocast is not your church. I will be the first to rebuke you and tell you that if you are only listening to us and you're not in a local body, your soul is not truly being cared for. I'm not your pastor. Justin, Jimmy, and I are not your pastors. We can't shepherd you. I don't even know your name, most of you. We can't love you. We can't get down in the mud and be there for you. You need to find a church. If that means you move your state, then move your state. Go find a place where you can get into a church.  
  
Justin Perdue: I know we've just got a few minutes left in the regular portion here, and I'm just going to say this in my typical ways, not trying to be punchy or sarcastic—and Jon, you can do with this what you will. In our context here in Asheville, North Carolina, as people come to CBC and they're wrestling with all these things that we're talking about today, they're starting to understand they're being affected by maybe the preaching or some of the things that the members of our church were saying to them. Sincerely, because they're born again, they want to grow in the faith. They want to mature. They want to obey the Lord. So they ask, and they'll be talking about discipleship, and they'll be talking about growth, and they'll be talking about what we need to be doing. "What do we need to be doing?"  
  
Because CBC is, by God's grace, the kind of church that is imperfect, but it is the kind of thing that we're describing today—like your church and like Jimmy's—where the means of grace are administered in Christ as the focus and we're loving each other. I tell people, just to try to liberate them and make it very simple, that the first thing that I would encourage them to do sincerely is keep coming to church on the Lord's Day. Get here, talk to people, and if you're invited to go hang out after church, go. You're going to be connected relationally that way. Keep coming here on Sundays, keep asking questions particularly to the pastors or anybody that you've gotten to know that you trust. Ask your questions and let us talk with you. Let us help you understand these things. Over the course of time, as you keep showing up, and as you keep loving these people and they keep loving you, you will be built up in the faith and you will grow into maturity. It really is that simple. This is how God has set it up. People look at you sideways because it's just so different than anything that they've ever heard. It sounds to them like there's got to be more to it than that. But this is how God works.  
  
Think about how many times we hear objections to faith and how it can't be as simple as just believing in Jesus. It can't be as easy as believing in Jesus and being saved. To that we would say that faith is actually not easy. There's a lot more entailed in that than you think. But yes, trusting Christ saves you, just like living life in the church will mature you, if you're in a healthy one. There are going to be a million things that go on in the life of the body that you're not aware of, that you're not planning for, that will grow and mature you in Christ Jesus, that will protect you and result in your sanctification, and will result finally in your being kept so that you'll be saved. It's really beautiful, and it is very simple.  
  
So yeah, you may have to move. We make all kinds of decisions in life where we have to prioritize things and ask what's the most valuable or the most significant thing in my life is. Then I need to make decisions based upon that. We have a value system. What we're saying is the most important thing for your life on earth is being in a church where Christ is heralded and where the saints are building one another up in love. There is nothing that could be more important for your life and the life of your family. Make decisions accordingly. You do what you will and there's liberty to join any gospel-preaching church you want.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We can talk about this in the members' podcast. But think about, in the sovereignty and the wisdom of God, He designed the church to advance this way. In the first 1500 years of the church community, most people couldn't own their own Bibles so they gathered together. Hmm. Brilliant. Maybe we should talk about that some more.  
  
Justin Perdue: We're going to talk about the gathered church some more, it sounds like to me, based upon what Jon has just said.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I got some thoughts about some modern perspectives as well, but I'll save those  
  
Justin Perdue: There you have it. There's a lot more that we're going to say. Thank you for listening to this episode of the podcast. I sincerely hope that this is encouraging and liberating for you. If we have simplified something for you in a way that's encouraging, praise God.  
  
Sincerely, find a local church where Christ is preached and where the saints are building one another up in love, and then give your life and arrange your life around that. It will be the best decision that you've ever made and you'll be thankful for it. I know I am, Jon is, and we have testimonies of many people around us who feel the exact same way. We are locking arms together in this pilgrimage called the Christian life as we trust Christ and he brings us home.  
  
Now we're going to head over to the members' podcast area and have a lively dialogue about gathered church realities, and as Jon put it, some weird takes from some contemporary people on the gathered church and everything related to that.  
  
If you don't even know what I'm talking about in terms of the members' podcasts, or you're unsure of how you would even go about listening to such a thing, you can go over to our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and you'll find information there about our membership. That will give you access to content. Should you become a member and partner with us in supporting this ministry, you'll get access not only to this, but other podcasts every week, and you'll get access to other content as well. We encourage you to partake of that and partner with us in that way.  
  
Jon and I will meet many of you over there and we will speak with you again next week on the regular version of the podcast. We look forward to that as well.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To add to that, if you're not listening to us on our private podcast feed, go get it via wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members. That's where you can find it.  
  
Go get it.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-christ-is-enough-now-what-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-christ-is-enough-now-what/)

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### MEMBERS: Are Spiritual Disciplines Biblical? (Transcript)

*Published: December 10, 2020 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical-transcript*
*Tags: Spiritual Disciplines*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: There is definitely a lively discussion coming in off of the spiritual disciplines podcast. This is one we did early on when we first started Theocast, and ever since then I've taught on it a lot. I've had a lot of dialogue and we even had a podcast back in the day that was pretty critical of my stuff on spiritual disciplines, which is fine. I hope people heard the tone in which we were trying to communicate here. The last thing we want to do is come across mean or arrogant. I'm not mad at these men. I don't agree with the way in which they've used their resources. There's even a modern book today—probably the newest book is by David Mathis, _Habits of Grace_ who uses Reformed language. He says it's Reformed means of grace. But he says in his introduction that he's not offering anything new that hasn't already been written. He definitely references those three authors that I had mentioned before. It's a dumbed down version of those books.  
  
People have asked me if I think that's a good book and he quotes those guys...  
  
Justin Perdue: The only thing I'll say is I do tend to get concerned when we feel the need to change language that has stood the test of time. Maybe that's just because I appreciate that kind of thing: history matters, church history matters a lot, and nothing happens in a vacuum. There needs to be a lot of evidence. The burden of proof lies with you if you think that we need to change terminology that's existed for centuries in terms of the ordinary means of grace. I understand we can repackage and try to communicate things in more understandable ways, and maybe that's what David's trying to do. Again, I haven't read the book.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the things that I really didn't say in the regular podcast is that even Don Whitney's book, I really do take a lot of problems with how there are so many Reformed guys out there, or Calvinistic guys, that promote this book and say it's a really good book and you should read it. I feel like it's an attack on the means of grace. The thing that we should be protecting, which is spiritual maturity and how it happens, this is a direct attack on it. Just going back to that paragraph that I read where he says this book examines the spiritual disciplines of Bible intake, prayer, worship, evangelism, service, stewardship, fasting, silence and solitude—he's saying, "I will maintain, the only road to Christian maturity and godliness past is through silence and solitude." That is monasticism. I have a really big problem with that because it's just not in Scripture.  
  
Justin Perdue: At best, it undermines the saints' confidence in the means of grace. At worst, it's a direct attack upon them. I would agree with that and that is concerning. I know I say this all the time and I mean to come across in any kind of bad way, but one of the things that I see in people regularly who began attending CBC where I pastor, and even some people who end up sticking with us, is something that we have to detox people from: the notion that everything else that happens Monday to Saturday in their own private lives and in small groups are what really matter; that somehow, if we prioritize the Sunday gathering we will be anemic as Christians. That if that's what we do, we will lack terribly, but if we really have rigor in our accountability, if we have rigor in our meeting with men or meeting with women, if we have rigor in our personal devotional lives, then that's really what's going to move the needle. To that, I could not disagree more strongly.  
  
It's not that those things are unimportant. It's not that they are not helpful in any way. Of course, they can be. I would say that sometimes they're not helpful at all, depending on what's happening in those contexts. I think that they're rarely as helpful as we think they are. I think the Sunday gathering, based upon biblical witness in terms of what happens there and what we're instructed to do, is the primary thing. It is the thing that will move the needle over the course of a Christian's life. I don't really care how you proceed any given service; God ministers to us in ways that we do not fully comprehend when we gather and assemble with the saints. We'll look up in five or 10 or 30 years, and we will realize that God has done something and He has done it through these means. That's the testimony of the witness of Christians through history.  
  
I could riff a long time on like what you and I and every other Christian really need, which is to gather with the saints on Sunday because Monday to Saturday has beaten us up. Everything wages war against our faith, and we need to come and be given Christ and have our faith sustained and stirred and strengthened and confirmed anew on Sunday. I think it's why the Lord gave us the gathering.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Let's compare the two systems. Spiritual discipline system, how you grow in maturity and godliness, is highly individualized. A lot of it has to do with what you do alone: personal Bible, reading, prayer, journaling. Just going back to some of the lists: stewardship, fasting, silence, solitude, journaling, learning, simplicity, submission.  
  
Justin Perdue: What do all these things even mean? A lot of these things are so vague.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You can find the verses for some of these. "Be still and know that I am God."  
  
Justin Perdue: Oh, my gosh.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You know what I'm saying? Even being wise with our money. Yes, I agree with that, but there's a difference in saying that's biblical and this is the way to maturity. One, how much is required? How much must I do? What does Scripture say my involvement is with this? When it comes to the means of grace, we are told they gathered once a week, at least, to hear the word read, to hear it preached, to receive the Table, to receive fellowship, encouragement, to bear each other's burdens, and to pray together. At least we know that at minimum, you need to be doing that. Hebrews even says, "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves as such as you were doing."  
  
Justin Perdue: As is the habit of some.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's very obvious at a ground level that when we say means of grace, we have a pretty strong biblical argument for saying God gifts teachers and uses them for the work of ministry, the church is then trained, and then builds itself up in love. That's the growth mechanism that God uses—not only growth, but it's the church discipline mechanism. It's the church protection for those who are weak, it's for those who have burdens, it's for those who need help. What the spiritual disciplines does is it's basically the difference between someone who works out in a gym by themselves and understands that they're bodybuilding themselves versus someone who understands that they are a part of a team, and the team is only as strong as everybody functioning together. It's this individualization that I think robs people of hope, of other people's gifts, they can't find rest, they don't ever do enough, and it creates unbelievable amounts of judgmentalism in people. That's what I was starting to get into in the regular podcast—I didn't have time to finish—but there's no way you can argue the spiritual disciplines somehow create unity within a body. I think it creates diversity and that's sad.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think the way that so many things are turned into a discipline, like you were talking about: silence, solitude, sacrifice, even how we use our money. I don't know even what it means to call that a spiritual discipline. I'm so with Don Carson that we need not speak in such a way where we turn every act of obedience into a discipline. No, this is actually just the outworking of the Holy Spirit's work in you. This is the outworking of a life of faith. This is the fruit being produced by God's Spirit through the ordinary means, and we're called to do this stuff. This is our duty and our responsibility, and we should put effort toward doing it.  
  
If that's what we mean, to put effort toward being loving or put effort toward thinking well about money, that's fine. But it's just unhelpful and unclear, at best, the ways that I think this is written about. It's not that we don't ever do anything on our own. I like your team analogy where you said that everything that we're doing, we're doing it with the team in view, versus just trying to build ourselves up to be the best version of ourselves that we can possibly be.  
  
I even think about our jobs as pastors, Jon, when we prep sermons. There are a number of hours spent in solitude with God's word praying, reading various things, thinking about things, and crafting a sermon. We're going to deliver that on Sunday morning to the saints. But that discipline—I'm happy to use that word. Sermon prep is a discipline. It requires discipline and fortitude, and you've got to plow, you've got to work, and it's hard sometimes. Why do you do it? You do that discipline, you do that work for the sake of the building up of the body because this is something that God has told us to give attention to. We are to give attention as pastors, 1 Timothy 4, to the public reading of Scripture and the teaching. 2 Timothy 4, preach the word in season and out of season—we're giving attention to this stuff. So even the discipline of sermon prep is for the sake of building up the body. I think that kind of perspective would help a ton in this whole conversation about spiritual disciplines if we are always thinking about wanting to be used by God to build up the body, and to build up my brothers and sisters. Now we're on the biblical track of being used by the Lord to help others mature, and to be used to build others up being the goal of my life, because that is what the church is called to do.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We say this all the time, but I just go back to Galatians 5\. "Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" I understand they call it spiritual disciplines, but a lot of the lists that's being given there can't be argued as spiritual. They look fleshly. They look like you're using the flesh to somehow manipulate maturity.  
  
Justin Perdue: Like you said, it's very monastic. It's very ascetic. It's monkery. I think that's a good analogy.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hopefully this is helpful. I would encourage you to read the articles and go through the series. If you're a member, you have access to the four-part series I did. In part two, I deal with spiritual disciplines, but I do an entire series on what is Reformed spirituality. That's available as well. I'd encourage you to listen to that. We have several podcasts that we could link into there.  
  
Anyways, we had a request to do this and so hopefully this was helpful. For those of you that are listening, please engage with us, ask questions. We would love to have any follow-up questions regarding something that may be confusing.  
  
I will tell you that I feel very strongly that we stand in the Reformed tradition of the confessions that they understood the means of grace to be the primary means by which we grow and pursue. There are other things that are helpful that God can use, and they even mentioned that Bible reading is helpful, but the primary way in which God engages us is the public corporate reality. I feel safe standing there.  
  
Justin Perdue: And we are free in Christ. I might even put it this way: rather than viewing Bible reading and prayer. Bible reading and prayer are the things that come up over and over again—and we didn't even bring up Cotton Mather, the prayer closet, closet time, and all that, and we could have. I don't mean to introduce a new thing for the listener so you can go look it up.  
  
I'm thinking about Bible reading and prayer. Those things in the corporate context or ordinary means of grace, which we absolutely partake of, and in your private devotional life can be incredibly good. But the way that I would encourage us to think about it is not to put the yoke of slavery on ourselves with respect to Bible reading and prayer, but to remember that in Christ Jesus, we have been set free unto all good things. We've been set free unto righteousness. We have been set free to read our Bibles. And we have been set free to pray. We have been delivered from the dominion of sin and we've become obedient from the heart. Now, we do things because we actually want to do them. We read our Bibles because we're grateful to God for saving us, and Christ is sufficient. We want to read God's word because we have it in front of us. What a grace and kindness that is. We're going to pray because we need God. We're struggling, we're sinning, or we're just anxious, and we want to talk to our heavenly Father who loves us, and we can cast our burdens and anxieties upon Him. We know that He is powerful and that He has us, and that He hears us. A prayer in that sense is the outworking of the life of faith. I think those are healthier perspectives, and they tend to be less burdensome when we look at them that way.  
  
I'm a guy that reads and spends time in prayer most every morning of my life, and I have to battle a very legalistic impulse on the days when I don't do that. Because like everybody else, I fall into the trap of thinking that I blew it this morning or things aren't going to be as good. I remind myself that no, life is demanding at points. I have a wife, I have children, and I have a church to love and lead and care for. Actually the more godly thing may be that I was working on this thing for the sake of the congregation, or I was doing this for my wife or my kids, and it means that I didn't have time to read this morning. Because we just reason ourselves into bad places in terms of how we think about all this stuff. We are free.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The closing thought Paul has on this is to walk by the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. People always translate that, and even John MacArthur writes this in his commentary, as Paul meaning Bible reading. The problem with that is that there's no way Paul means Bible reading because that couldn't apply to that context. It doesn't work.  
  
Justin Perdue: If he does mean Bible reading, he means the public reading of Scripture because nobody had their own Bibles.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In the concept of walking, what he's saying is we live in the reality of our union. We live knowing that we are safe and secure in Christ, and that Spirit reality is what keeps us centered and off of the temptations of the flesh. When you feel the temptation of the flesh, you can say, "No, I am a child of Christ. This would dishonor God. This would hurt others." You're walking by the Spirit as if the Spirit is there with you speaking into your head. You are allowing your union with Christ to motivate you to fight against the flesh versus what Paul says in Colossians that all these aesthetic works that we try and use are of no value of stopping the works of the flesh.  
  
I think that's spiritual disciplines: walk by the Spirit and how best to continue to have the Spirit engaging in you, that as far as walking in that reality. How about Ephesians 4? Training by the elders and teachers of the church to prepare you to walk by the Spirit.  
  
Justin Perdue: Galatians 5:25\. "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." Then what comes next? "Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." Let's walk by the Spirit. What would that look like in the mind of Paul the apostle? Don't become conceited, don't provoke, don't envy, restore people, be gentle, bear one another's burdens and sorrows.  
  
That's not what we think. We think to walk by the Spirit is to train yourself with certain habits. That may be a piece somewhere down the line, but in the minds of the apostles, it's these corporate realities of loving each other. This is to walk in the Spirit.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As always, we encourage you to find rest in what Christ has done. You need to go hear about it, need to receive it in the Table, you need to observe it in baptism, you need to pray together, hearing each other on your behalf, being held up by the ministry and prayer, so that you can then have the energy to then love and care and show patience and kindness.  
  
As always, please find your rest in Christ. Those of you who are weary and say you're bad at spiritual disciplines, my encouragement then is to go to the well and receive that which is there—and it's called grace. It is your means by which you can receive it. If you can't find a church that is giving out the gospel, then move and go find one. Go get fed.  
  
Justin Perdue: A lot of jobs are remote these days.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. Thanks for listening. Thank you for your support. Honestly, we legitimately could not afford to do this. It costs quite a bit of money. There's a lot of hands that are involved in editing and preparing and getting us all set up. Thank you for allowing us to afford to do this. Ending in our fifth year, going to be going into our sixth year and our second year with Justin and Jimmy. I'm excited about that. Stay tuned.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical-podcast/)

---

### Are Spiritual Disciplines Biblical? (Transcript)

*Published: December 10, 2020 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical-transcript*
*Tags: Spiritual Disciplines*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical-podcast/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we are discussing spiritual disciplines. Justin and I have a conversation about the history of where they come from, and how they are actually counter-Reformation theology. Then we look at how we should be understanding the way in which we grow and mature in Christ.  
  
In the members' podcast, we have a lively conversation about how spiritual disciplines tend to be individualized and how it could possibly hurt the unity of the church.  
  
We hope you enjoy.  
  
Justin Perdue: This topic is a good one. It's a topic that we get a lot of questions about here at Theocast. It is something that is on the front burner for many evangelicals in our current moment, and that is the topic of spiritual disciplines.  
  
We want to come in pastoral, but we don't want to bury the lead either. The way that spiritual disciplines are framed and talked about and presented in our modern context, we would contend, is not directly from the Scripture. We don't get it directly from the Bible or directly from the New Testament. I think many people would be surprised to know where spiritual disciplines, in particular the movement of spiritual disciplines that has been on the resurgence in the last 30 or 40 years—where this comes from and where it finds its roots historically. We're going to talk about that a little bit today.  
  
But the question is how did we find ourselves here? Where depending on who you ask about spiritual disciplines and what they are, you might be given a list of things that could contain dozens, even hundreds, of items depending on who you talk to. Those lists might contain anything from Bible reading to gardening. How did we get here? How should we think through these matters of spiritual disciplines and their place in the Christian life? Even the question of how do we grow in Christ? How do we grow in maturity, in grace, in knowledge and understanding? How is it that we're sustained in the Christian life? All that is underneath this conversation as well. We hope to talk to all of those things.  
  
To us, it makes all kinds of sense to begin with history, to begin with a brief overview about where these things come from, and some of the ebbs and flows and movements through the history of the church that matter for this conversation. Our brother Jon Moffitt, faithful man that he is, has done a lot of work on this topic. He's written and given lectures on this. He has a lot of familiarity with this. What I want to do is let Jon talk to us for a few minutes about the history of spiritual disciplines in this movement, and what I may do is just interject briefly as you're guiding us through the portals of history. Then what we'll do is move on from that historical overview to unpack this topic in terms of life in the church, the Christian life, our pastoral concerns, and stuff like that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Early on in my ministry, when I was working with college students, once a year I would let them pick whatever we wanted to study. They said there's a lot of confusion on spiritual disciplines. I started doing research on it and got every book I had in my library and every book that was in all the different pastors' libraries, so I had a large stack of books, and I started going through them. As I went through them, I realized they were not rooted in confessional historic-biblical theology. I couldn't figure out where the concept of spiritual disciplines was coming from. I then started to read the most popular books that are out there and footnotes are where all the keys are. So I started looking at all the footnotes.  
  
Justin Perdue: Because you're looking at who these guys are citing, what are their sources, and where are these ideas coming from?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yup. So I went to the sources, and as I'm reading these footnotes, I'm recognizing some common names and threads. I started to research those names and what I was very disappointed to find was that a lot of what was being quoted were not Reformation writers, but actually Roman Catholic writers. So I started to do research and back up even farther. This is where the research led me: during the early stages of the Reformation, there was what's called the Counter-Reformation in the Catholic, or it's also known as the Catholic Revival or the Catholic Reformation. It was a direct response and was most famously known in the Council of Trent and the things that were written.  
  
Justin Perdue: So what you're talking about as a period of time, Jon, is from the 1520s through the middle to latter part of the 16th century.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. During this time there was a very famous captain or basically a warrior named Ignatius and he is from Loyola, so he's called Ignatius of Loyola, and he ended up presenting to the Roman Catholic church his concerns with the way in which the church was moving away from its spirituality; it had been regressing in its holiness. He had been leading soldiers for years. and so he wanted to encourage the church to move back into this spiritual reformation. He was basically saying what the Reformers are saying: that justification is by faith alone, and that's enough. He's saying no, it's not enough. There's more that is required, which was the whole Council of Trent. So he wrote a book in 1522 and was published again in 1524 called The Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola. In this, he laid out basically this monastic movement where there will be all of these different things that were absolutely required of you as a believer in order to grow as a Christian. There is a response from Luther, of course, when Luther finds out about this Counter-Reformation. Luther's response later on in life is this: "Yet all these seeming holy actions of devotion, which the wit and wisdom of man holds to be angelical sanctity, are nothing else but works of the flesh." Of course, that's really a direct quote from Colossians 2 towards the end of the chapter. "All manner of religion, where people serve God without his Word and command, is simply idolatry, and the more holy and spiritual such a religion seems, the more hurtful and venomous it is; for it leads people away from the faith of Christ, and makes them rely and depend upon their own strength, works, and righteousness."  
  
Justin Perdue: If I may interject briefly, the way I understand Luther when he says if you're doing anything devotionally or as a matter of discipline without the word and command of God, I think what he's meaning is if you're doing something that is not explicitly and directly commanded in Scripture, then what you are doing can be called something, but it is not an exercise in godliness. And that matters.  
  
Then of course, he's driving at how this actually pulls people away from faith in Christ, which is a huge issue. It actually places their trust and confidence elsewhere.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He says at the end of it, "In like manner, are all kinds of orders of monks, fasts, prayers, hairy shirts. . . are mere works of the flesh."  
  
So early on, this is the one who started this movement, and then used spiritual formation, or even used the concept of spiritual discipline. During my research, I wanted to see how we got from Ignatius to today. I don't know if you know this but almost every book in history has almost been digitized. It's insane. You can go on and do a Google search in the Google archives and put years in there of how and what your search frame is. So I put in from 1970—which I'll explain that date in a minute—all the way back as far as it'll go. There are five books that show up on spiritual disciplines or spiritual formation, and Ignatius being one of them. When you put in 1977 and forward, the pages are endless. It's hundreds and hundreds of books on spiritual disciplines. So the question is: what happened? What happened between Ignatius and the 1970s?  
  
What happened was the writings of Richard Foster. Richard Foster was a Quaker and he wrote one of the most famous books in history, which at one point was in every Christian college. Every Christian college had a spiritual formation class after the writing of this book in 1977\. He wrote _Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth_. That was the name of the book. Christianity Today gave a review on this and it basically said that it is medieval Roman Catholic mysticism. This is true because what Richard Foster ends up doing is quoting men like Ignatius and using them as references of saying that this is how the Christian life should be. So he's pulling Roman Catholic theology and adjusting it for Protestant purposes. Before Richard Foster does this, the concept of spiritual disciplines was not commonly used or known in the spiritual sphere around the world.  
  
Justin Perdue: Those who are advocating for spiritual disciplines in the modern era, in the last 40 years, and in particular some of the figures that really got this movement going—Richard Foster being one of them—they are looking back historically not to Protestant Reformation theologians and theology, but they are looking back to Roman Catholic medieval theologians and practices of that theology. Listeners of Theocast will be familiar with medieval theology and the Roman Catholic church of that time, and how it operated and functioned, but a couple of things are worth mentioning again.  
  
You've mentioned mysticism where there is this mystical understanding of how we are grown or matured in the Christian life. It is also this understanding that God's grace works apart from faith and all that where we are just there and get it, and in something magical essentially almost happens as a result of that. Then also, there is a notion that we cooperate with the grace of God. It's a very synergistic notion where two parties are working: God does His part and we do our part. Thereby, our spiritual state, our spiritual condition, and our spiritual growth and maturation very much hinge upon how we're doing, how we're applying ourselves, and how disciplined we are.  
  
It's important that we understand in that part of that schema, what would naturally flow out of it is the monastic movement, which was an ascetic existence where you deprive yourself of all kinds of things. It's very much a Colossians 2, disciplining yourself according to the flesh. These things had the appearance of godliness but, according to the apostle Paul, are of no value in combating the flesh or training oneself for godliness. All of those things are related to the medieval church, and it's very telling.  
  
Again, we're not trying to say that everyone who's talking about spiritual disciplines is aiming to draw upon Roman Catholic theology on purpose. It's important that we understand that many of the ideas and citations come from this era and from this tradition.  
  
Jon Moffitt: They're citing their sources saying, "These men wrote this so we should listen to what they say." For instance, the man that was also influenced by Foster was another famous book that came out in the eighties by Dallas Willard. He wrote _The Spirit of the Disciplines: Understanding How God Changes Lives_. In the introduction, he says this: "Today, for the first time in our history as a nation, we are being presented with a characteristic range of human behaviors, such as fasting meditation, simple living, and submission to spiritual overseers," listen to this, "in an attractive light." The reason he has to write that is because up to this point before Foster, these were not attractive because we saw them as contra-biblical. We did not see them as helpful. Even in his book, he makes this claim that the ordinary means such as Bible study, prayer, and fellowship are inadequate and have failed and left most Christians in failing in their spiritual growth. So he is saying that this is going to fix the failure of the Christian growth.  
  
Now the one that follows him, Donald Whitney, would probably be the most recent famous writer. His book _Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life_ became almost as popular as Richard Foster, and Don Whitney often will quote Willard and Foster in his book.  
  
This is where Justin and I are going to take, because this is probably the book that has the most influence today. Willard and Foster aren't really read anymore.  
  
Justin Perdue: Certainly amongst Calvinistic evangelicals, it does.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. In the worlds that we have been involved in, Don Whitney's book is still promoted heavily. This is what he says in his introduction: "I will maintain that the only road to Christian maturity and godliness passes through the practice of spiritual disciplines." Justin and I are going to take any qualms with that because he hasn't really clarified what he means yet. So let's see. Maybe he's rephrasing means of grace. He continues, "This book examines the Spiritual Disciplines of Bible intake, prayer, worship, evangelism, service, stewardship, fasting, silence and solitude, journaling, and learning. This is by no means, however, an exhaustive list of disciplines of Christian living. A survey of other literature of this subject would reveal that confession, accountability, simplicity, submission, spiritual direction, celebration, affirmation, sacrifice, watching," I don't know what that means, "and more qualify as Spiritual Disciplines." He is saying, I maintain the only road of a Christian maturity and godliness passes through practicing these lists—and he says there's even a larger list. So this is what we're referencing. When we say spiritual disciplines, there are other ways in which it has been described. We're referencing what has been popularly written and what has been spreading.  
  
When someone says to me, "Jon, do you think spiritual disciplines are biblical?", I would have to say, according to what Whitney, Willard, Foster, and Ignatius of Loyola wrote, no, those are not grounded on spiritual concepts. Now, do they say things that are biblical inside those books? Of course. Praying, reading your Bible, evangelism—all of those are absolutely biblical things, but the confusion and the muddying of the water is when we infuse bad doctrine into these.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to say a few things at a high level that I know we're going to go on to talk a lot more about; things that we understand to be clearly biblical, or what have historically been known as the ordinary means of grace in the context of the gathered church, which we're going to discuss. In addition, rather than using the phrase "spiritual disciplines", one of the ways that Jon and I would prefer we speak is to encourage the saints to pursue good works—and we want to define what those are biblically—and to pursue obedience. But to act like every act of obedience or every doing of a good work is a discipline is actually an unhelpful and unclear way to speak.  
  
We're trying to clarify some things and ask some legitimate questions. With all due respect, I don't know what a number of those things are that Don Whitney mentions in the intro to his book. I would completely agree with some of the things that he articulates when it comes to the word and prayer and even worship. I understand him to be meaning something happening in the gathered church context there. I don't know if he means that to be synonymous with singing, like many people do, or if he means that to be corporate worship wholesale. I agree with a number of those things. But then he also says some things like journaling, watching, and sacrifice. I don't know how to understand that as a spiritual discipline in my life.  
  
Based on how he's defining it, I would take some issue with his language of "the only way to Christian maturity passes through this". If you're going to make a statement like that, that is so definitive and absolute, then I would contend that we need to be saying something that is practically a quote from Scripture that is absolutely grounded in the New Testament, like a command that's explicitly given: you need to be doing these things, give careful attention to these things, don't neglect these things. As we're going to see, the New Testament speaks those ways about corporate realities in the gathered church: not neglecting assembling together, giving attention to the preaching of the word, the reading of the word, to sing together, to pray together about everything. Anyway, I could go on.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Later on in the book, which we're not going to deal with today, and I will mention this now, I have a three-part article series that I've written that we will link to here. I also did a full on lecture on this called _Reformed Spirituality_. You can get this on our website. We'll link all of this so you can download and listen to that if you want all of the quotes.  
  
Later on, Whitney ends up quoting Hebrews where he says, "Without godliness, no one will see the Lord." He makes the connection between doing these disciplines and seeing the Lord, and he's saying, "Look, I'm just quoting Scripture here." This is a very dangerous thing to say because somehow simplicity and accountability—which I don't even know what those means, simplicity, what does he even mean by that? Without the discipline of simplicity, I won't see the Lord. I know I'm being a little bit punchy here, but the point I'm getting to is that we are placing things upon Scripture that scripture itself never says.  
  
Justin Perdue: Hebrews 12 is about the way that the Lord in His grace and sovereignty disciplines us so that we might share in His holiness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We have done a podcast on that and we will link that podcast as well on what that passage means.  
  
This is a quote by D.A. Carson I found helpful. He says this: "It is not helpful to list assorted Christian responsibilities," we agree there are Christian responsibilities, "and label them spiritual disciplines. That seems to be the reasoning behind the theology that smuggles in, say, creation care and almsgiving. But by the same logic, if out of Christian kindness, you give a back rub to an old lady with a stiff neck and a sore shoulder, then back rubbing B becomes a spiritual discipline. By such logic, any Christian obedience is a spiritual discipline," and I couldn't agree with him more.  
  
That's Don Carson. If you read different books, there are some people who have over 250 spiritual disciplines that you can do in order to gain godliness, maturity, and spirituality.  
  
The problem I have with this are two things. There are certain things you can do that are godly acts, meaning that they reflect the nature of God but they're not guaranteed to bring about maturity. What concerns me is that nowhere in Scripture, other than plain passages like Ephesians 4, say "Do this and it will cause maturity." Paul flat out says that when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love. Nowhere else in Scripture does it say you will be built up into Christ by doing simplicity, or quietism, or journaling.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm restraining myself from wanting to jump on that Ephesians 4 train, because what is the context? What's the understanding there? It is completely a corporate reality. It is the body of Christ corporate and all of the gifts that Christ gives to the church, which includes apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, pastors, all of those, and then the whole body. If we think about Paul's writing elsewhere about how every member has its function, the whole body functions under God by the ministry of God's Spirit to build itself up in love unto maturity in Christ Jesus.  
  
God has promised to uniquely bless corporate realities in a way that He has not promised to bless something you do in private. That does not mean that what you do in private is irrelevant. That's not what we're saying. But it does mean that the most important thing by miles, when it comes to the Christian life and our growth and sustenance, is that we gather with the saints to partake of the means that God has promised to bless and to use for our growth, maturation, and sustenance.  
  
That language of Paul in Ephesians 4 is maybe the most obvious place where the apostle says to do these things and this will happen. But the New Testament is full of that, at least at the level of implication, with all of the corporate exhortations that are given to how we live together, and things that need to be given attention like the preaching and reading of Scripture, the singing of psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to one another. Even the exhortations to prayer are corporate exhortations: you have to be praying about everything as a body of Christ, and certainly we pray individually.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Even the individual prayer, according to Jesus, is a prayer of dependence. We are depending upon God for our ongoing sustenance. If you turn prayer into a discipline, here's my problem with it. If someone disciplines themselves to pray at a certain time every day, this is different from turning prayer into a discipline. This is why: you can equate that if you pray this much, you will mature that much—and it doesn't work that way. Prayer is about you depending upon God. It is the greatest acknowledgement of our weakness because we have to reach out to God in everything: in our meals, in our fears, in our joys, we always give praise, honor, and reflection to God because we depend on Him for so much. Let me put it this way: the thing that I want people to hear is that the Reformers said the means by which God matures you and sustains you is through the corporate preaching and teaching of His word, the Lord's Table, baptism, and prayer. If you're going to discipline yourself, you need to structure your life in such a way that that becomes the priority of your life. Discipline your time at home so that you can participate in these corporate realities. What bothers me is that people want to go home and do all these spiritual disciplines, and yet they are so frustrated by their life because they are not having joy and aren't seeing growth. I'm saying you're disciplining yourself in the wrong areas.  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to be so charitable because people have never been taught, they've never had anybody look at them and unpack Scripture, unpack history, and help them see these things. But you hear it regularly where people talk about discipleship, and how we need discipleship and accountability. Tell me about the Bible studies that are going on. Tell me about these meetings that are happening—and by meeting, they don't mean the corporate gathering but men's accountability or women's accountability—and what kind of reading programs that we have. People talk in these terms as though this is the real marrow of the Christian life. I find it very interesting when people that are all geeked up about those things are often very quick to miss the corporate gathering because it's as though the private stuff they do by themselves, or that Bible study on Wednesday night, or that men's group on Thursday morning are really the ones that matter. The corporate gathering on Sunday is, at best, supplemental to that.  
  
If you're going to discipline yourself for anything in the Christian life, discipline yourself by planning your life around the corporate gathering of your local church on Sunday morning, or whenever your church meets. Structure your life around it as much as you can so that you can be there with the saints whom you have determined that you're going to live life with. Together, we're submitting to the doctrine of this church. We're submitting to the pastors of this church. We're submitting to the discipline of this church. We together are gathering and assembling to sit under the word, and to come to the Table to pray and to sing. We're going to experience the fellowship of the saints, and that, biblically speaking, God has promised to uniquely use so that we might be matured in Christ Jesus. If you're going to discipline yourself, please, brothers, sisters out there, discipline yourself to do that. It is the most important thing that you could do.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. I will tell you that godliness is part of the Christian life. It is obvious that as part of the Christian life. But you have to understand its place and its purpose. Godliness is not to confirm or somehow maintain your relationship with God. That would be Roman Catholic theology right there because they believe that one is not fully justified by faith alone, that there must be works that add to it. This is also part of that final justification confusion that's been going around, that we will have our works examined to determine. The way in which Paul, Peter, and James all use good works, and they write on this extensively, is that it is for the very purpose we were talking about: if the body isn't functioning properly, which requires godliness, then it can't grow. How does the body work properly? It's through love, patience, and kindness. This is why he says in Ephesians 4 that you need a walk in a way that reflects the calling of Christ upon your life—with patience, meekness, and long-suffering, maintain the bond of unity in Christ. He's saying the unity around Christ requires godliness. I mean, we talked about this passage. I'll let you jump in on that.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm happy to go to 1 Timothy 4 in terms of training yourself for godliness in the context of that passage.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We hear this. 1 Timothy 4:7, the New American Standard will actually say the word "discipline". ESV says, "Train yourself for the sake of godliness," which we would need to look at the context there. Is he talking about maturity so that God is pleased and we confirm our salvation? No, he's not talking about that kind of godliness. There is a context. Justin, walk us through the context here.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm not going to go way back for the sake of time. I think we can even start in 1 Timothy 4:6 and make very clear what Paul is exhorting. Remember that these pastoral epistles, 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus, are written to those respective pastors, but they are written to congregations through those pastors. It's not as though Paul is just writing to the pastor in a vacuum; now he's writing to the pastor with the congregation in view. Even these letters have a very corporate aspect and tone and tenor to them.  
  
Beginning in 1 Timothy 4:6, Paul writes to Timothy: "If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained," this important, "in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come."  
  
Then he's going to go forward and exhort Timothy to teach. He's going to tell him to teach the things he’s talking about: "Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, and to teaching. Do not neglect the gifts you have." Immerse yourself in these things and practice them. Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching, you know, because in doing this, you're going to save yourself and others. It's very clear that Paul is exhorting Timothy to the proclamation and the teaching of sound doctrine and the sound words of the faith, as opposed to silly myths and irreverent nonsense.  
  
That's the command in terms of training yourself for godliness. How would one do that? In the context of the church, your pastors and your leaders are going to give attention to the reading and the teaching of the Scripture, and to give attention to the proclamation of sound doctrine. The tradition that has been handed down to us; the faith once for all delivered to the saints. That, Paul is contending, is going to lead us toward godliness. Whereas there are all kinds of silly stuff and irreverence stuff that's talked about that's useless.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When someone comes to me and says, "Jon, do you think the spiritual discipline of daily bible reading is unbiblical?" I would say if you assume the amount of time you spend in your word equates to the maturity of your Christianity, then I would say, yes, that is a confusion. But if you say you love God's word, want to know God's word, and want to know God because you're His child then dig in. And if your time in the word is not producing patience and kindness and long-suffering and love for neighbor, I think you're missing the point of God's word.  
  
I agree with don Carson when he says not to relabel Christian responsibilities. We, as Christians, are responsible to show kindness and patience and love to all. It's the response to our receiving kindness and patience. But do not think that the more you perform that the more godly God assumes that you are. That's a dangerous comparison.  
  
Justin Perdue: It is crystal clear, and no one could ever object to this, that in the New Testament we are encouraged to pursue good works and obedience. Now there are other questions underneath those, like how do we do that? Why do we do that?  
  
Jon Moffitt: What are those good works?  
  
Justin Perdue: For whom do we do that? That's really another podcast for another day, but let's not relabel everything as a discipline. Let's just encourage people toward love and good works. Again, if we're going to discipline ourselves for things, we need to be disciplining ourselves for the stuff that the New Testament is absolutely clear about in terms of the stuff that we need to be doing. To your point about the Bible and Bible reading, I agree completely with you that motivation matters a lot; don't wig about your motivations. But if you're seeing this as ticking the box for godliness, that's not so good. But if you're seeing this as loving God and wanting to read His word then amen, brother, sister, absolutely dig in and dive headlong into it.  
  
At the same time, you are going to be helped and it's going to be much safer for you to spend a lot of time reading your Bible personally if you are doing that in the context of a faithful church that teaches sound doctrine, like what Paul is talking about in 1 Timothy 4\. This is why you need the corporate gathering. There are a million reasons you need it, but we together on Sunday mornings are learning how to read and understand our Bibles. You need pastors, we need the tradition of the church, the history of interpretation, and the rule of faith. Evangelicals are notorious for going it alone when they do theology. We write systematic theology on our own, or we go about thinking about theology by ourselves rather than doing it corporately with saints who have lived for the last 2000 years. But this is why you need the church so that when you go to your Bible and when you are reading it—because you're going to run up against passages where you're not sure what that means—instead of coming up with something wild, you've got a pastor that you can go ask or you've been given good theology and a good framework through which to read and understand Scripture. You have a much better chance of being able to make something of it, rather than having spent time looking at something and having no idea what you just read, and thinking that somehow that is going to be profitable for you.  
  
Even the Bible reading is undergirded by the corporate reality of the church and proclamation of the word.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to read something that's so plain that Paul says. We always assume personal devotional time, journaling, and all of these other things that we've been told are supposed to train us. Paul says this is what trains you in Ephesians 4: " gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that what we may no longer be children. . ." He's saying the path from children to adulthood or maturity to the path of more knowledge of Christ, to effectively doing the work of ministry—where does he say it happens? He says it happens through those who the Holy Spirit has brought into the church to equip the saints.  
  
You need to understand the priority. We're not saying Bible reading isn't helpful; it's just not the primary means by which God grows His church. Your spiritual disciplines aren't the way in which God grows you. They're necessary. It's necessary for you to live a disciplined life, meaning that you have to structure your life in such a way that you reflect love and kindness and mercy and patience. But that's not the way God grows you. You do those things because God is growing you and God grows you through these means, which is God using His church. So we reversed it; we put spiritual disciplines at top saying when you do these, you will then act right. The discipline list is so crazy.  
  
Here's my favorite question, Justin, and I'm sure we've got to get into the members' podcast here: what is the most important spiritual discipline if you're going to pick one of all the lists that people offer you? I love asking this question. What's the most important one?  
  
Justin Perdue: One is faith in Christ. Two, if you're talking about something that you need to do, like an action, then it's to go to church on Sunday.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. But if you look at the list, it's prayer, it's Bible reading, it's evangelism, it's tithing.  
  
Justin Perdue: Do you know what's wild, brother? This is just an observation that just popped into my brain so look out. I feel like a lot of people act like showing up to church is some sort of like legalistic, ritualistic thing that people do that really has no value. I think that in reality, the thing that often becomes very legalistic is all of these boxes that we check in terms of our personal disciplines. It's just ironic to me the way that we speak sometimes, because it's like we're going to turn the corporate gathering into this legalistic thing but what I do in private is like really a devotional act. The opposite, I think, is actually true; you showing up to church on Sunday is something you've been commanded to do in Scripture, and this other stuff is supplemental that I think often becomes a yoke of slavery because we turned it into this legalistic thing where the act itself is somehow sanctifying me. We need to check our thinking and we need to assess ourselves according to God's word as to how we're approaching these things and viewing them.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I really want to unpack this in the members' podcast, and I'm sure you have some stuff too, but my biggest beef with the modern day concept of spiritual disciplines is that it takes your rest and places it on your own efforts.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's pietism. It takes your focus off of Christ and puts it on you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As you're pursuing Christ in your discipline, you end up feeling good depending on how well you are in your discipline, and you end up feeling you have a lack of assurance if you are not being disciplined. We even tell people they're bad Christians, lazy Christians, or not even Christians at all because they aren't performing these spiritual disciplines.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to read a quote from Horatius Bonar in the members' section from his book _God's Way of Peace_ that speaks to some of this.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I have a lot more to say in this. The thing that bothers me the most about spiritual disciplines is that those who pursue them the most tend to have either pride and they are very judgmental, or they have no assurance because they can't find rest.  
  
Justin Perdue: Another quick thought, and I don't really have time to unpack this fully, but just to offer it and maybe this prompts some good thoughts for others: we are called in the Christian life to deny ourselves. You said it a minute ago that discipline absolutely is a part of the Christian life. There are a number of things that we need to discipline ourselves to do. Amen. Please do not misunderstand us to be saying that there aren't duties or responsibilities. Don't misunderstand us to be saying that you don't need to discipline yourself or deny yourself. We absolutely believe biblically that we need to deny ourselves and discipline ourselves, but what are those things that we need to deny and what are those things that we need to discipline ourselves for? Thinking about Jesus and the apostles, we are needing to deny ourselves so that we might love and serve others. We deny ourselves and consider others as more important than ourselves so that we might love and serve them and be concerned for their good. We discipline ourselves so that we might be patient and kind and gentle and self-controlled in the ways that we interact with our brothers and sisters and with our neighbor, because they need that from us. We wound them and harm them when we're not those things.  
  
I think our emphasis on discipline is misplaced. We need to be concentrating our efforts in terms of self-denial and discipline in a much more corporate way, with our brothers and sisters in view. At the same time, certainly, that is in no way contradictory to the Bible's expectations to flee from sin. It's all of that. That denial of self and that theology of the cross that calls us to die to ourselves and love others is legit. Let's put some effort there in terms of our disciplines, rather than in all the other areas that we tend to put it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We have a membership and that's the way that you can support us. We'll give you additional content. We also have a book that is underway on covenant theology and all your support is helping us produce that as well. Stay tuned for that. If you don't know what we're talking about, you can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com to learn more about total access. This gets you into our members' only podcast, which we're going to continue the conversation there, but more importantly, it helps support what we're doing to help pastors and listeners around the world.  
  
We'll see you next week.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-are-spiritual-disciplines-biblical/)

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### MEMBERS: The Cravings of the Flesh (Transcript)

*Published: December 2, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-the-cravings-of-the-flesh-transcript*
*Tags: homosexuality, saint and sinner, Sin, struggle with the flesh*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-cravings-of-the-flesh-members/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. Jon and I want to send a sincere and hearty thank you to all of you who have partnered so generously with us in this ministry. Our membership is growing and we don't take that for granted. We're excited and encouraged by that. We ask that you would continue to pray along with us that more and more people would partner with us monetarily so that we can see this ministry grow, and so that we can see this message of Jesus and the rest that is ours in him spread as far and as wide as possible.  
  
A couple of things to make you guys, our members, aware of: please do be availing yourselves of all of the wonderful things that are to be found on the member's homepage over at the website. That is wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members. If you log in over there on the website, you can go and access that page. There's all kinds of stuff that's being regularly updated for you to be able to access there. Avail yourselves of all of those resources and links and all that good stuff.  
  
The second thing is if you have not already done so, one of the things that you can find at the very top actually of that members' homepage is a link and the methods to get yourself hooked up to the Theocast members' private podcast feed. This is where you'll get all of the Theocast content: regular episodes, the members' episodes, the _Ask Theocast_, _Hot Topics_, etc. It will all show up in one feed on your podcast app. I have it. I love it. It makes it really simple and streamlined. It's just Theocast members and everything is in there if I ever wanted to spot check something or critique us and our podcast. Whatever our presentation, I know where to go. I hope that you are enjoying that. Avail yourselves of those resources. We are working to improve our website and our platforms all the time. One of the things that requires is money, which is why we continue to ask you to pray.  
  
So with all that by way of a thank you, information, and introduction, we're now going to get to the good stuff where I think what we're going to talk about accountability and this caring for one another, the direction it often goes, and the tone and tenor that it has that is not that great.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So accountability. I love it when someone comes and asks me to help keep them accountable. What they mean can vary. I always ask them what they mean by that. Or I'll have people who are interested in coming to the church and they ask me what our accountability looks like in the church. They literally mean, "Do you have a checklist for me and my family to check off?" Some people mean, "I want a checklist so that I can feel like I'm accomplishing something as a Christian."  
  
I was watching an interview recently with Joe Rogan. He was interviewing Matthew McConaughey. I watched about five minutes of it.  
  
McConaughey doesn't have what I would say is a normal job. He's an actor so he doesn't go do nine-to-five. He was saying how he loves to make himself checklists so he feels like he can get things accomplished in the day. What struck me was we like to feel like we're accomplishing something with our life. Like we're doing something.  
  
Justin Perdue: Some of that's good.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Of course. I am not picking at people for liking to feel as if they're accomplishing something. A lot of people have checklists. I've tried it—it's not my thing. The danger in that is people assume they're a good Christian because they've checked these things off. My kickback to that is not necessarily doing things privately equates good Christianity.  
  
Accountability also looks like I'm asking you every time I'm seeing you, "How's it going with whatever struggle that you're having?" Accountability becomes that constant check mark. Justin, you and I both have done this with people and we know they're lying—and that's the danger of accountability. It creates really good liars.  
  
Justin Perdue: The reason that it does that in many church contexts is because in churches where the tone is exacting and threatening, and like you said earlier, in one sense it's not okay to struggle and we always need to be improving—if we're really Christians, we got to prove it by how we live—whenever you have that going on in the church, people are very hesitant to talk about what in the world is really going on in their hearts and minds. They'll happily confess "sin". They'll say they're struggling with pride or lust. But then it gets all kinds of uncomfortable when you start to press in on that and ask how. "Well, I'm struggling in my thought life." How? People are squirming because when we start to try and confess specific sins, we get very nervous because in our minds, that's not okay: for me to have specific sins that I'm really battling is not okay.  
  
In part, what we're trying to speak to today is that those specific sins are wrong, and you need to be battling them, but confess them, talk about them, and let's walk together in a way that's actually helpful to one another so that we can continue to exhort and encourage one another in Christ.  
  
An observation I've made before, like you were talking about when people come to your church and they say they want to talk to you about accountability and what it looks like: there are two things that people ask me about semi-regularly where my antennas go up and then I try to answer it in a way that they're probably not expecting. One is when people ask me what discipleship and accountability look like in our church. Discipleship and accountability, which a lot of times those things are inevitably tethered together in the minds of many people. Then I'll talk to them and pivot the conversation to ordinary means, understanding of grace, and how our discipleship begins on Sunday morning. The main thing that we encourage people to do is to keep showing up, then we encourage one another to be in each other's lives, and that we want to walk with honesty, love, and compassion while pointing one another to Christ and helping one another as we make our way through this pilgrimage in life toward the new heavens and the new earth.  
  
People always say it sounds good, but they have never heard anybody say that before. Typically people are expecting to be given programs, groups, or Bible studies that's happening. It's all about accountability, meeting with people, and needing to talk about sex, drugs, and alcohol, and making sure that nobody's enslaved to those things. Like you said, Jon, a lot of times what it turns into is some sort of like AA meeting where there's nothing inherently Christian about it. It's just a bunch of unhelpfulness that's being thrown around. We want to battle sin in our churches. We're fighting our sin and we understand that the way that that's best facilitated is through compassion, honesty, and always pointing one another to Christ. Because people feeling free to actually talk about what in the world's going on in their lives is square one. If you can't talk about what's happening in your heart and mind, how in the world are you ever going to address it with your brothers and sisters? How are you really going to be able to move forward in this life if you can't even say what's happening?  
  
Jon Moffitt: I assume people struggle with sin because I understand human nature and the gospel. I did this to someone recently where they were coming to our church. I went ahead and poked at his life a little bit. He goes, "How do you know that?" I said, "What do you mean?" He asks how I know he's struggling with a particular thing and I said it's because most people do.  
  
Justin Perdue: If I'm feeling really punchy, I would say, "It's because I've read the Bible. And I know myself." And The Bible plus my experience plus pastoral experience of knowing that people struggle with this equals me asking you this question, or me pressing it on this thing. Feel free to ask me the same thing in return, please.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There's a freedom when you know that there's something wrong, and the person sitting across from you knows that something's wrong, and the both of you are there to deal with it together. There's a lot of freedom there. I always assume anyone in my church has a sin struggle because that's natural and normal. What I don't want to do is I don't want them to give into it. This is when we get into a Galatians 6:1 moment.  
  
Accountability, in my understanding of Scripture, is more of wanting everyone to admit... We have had more sin confessed in our church recently because people feel free knowing they're not the only ones.  
  
Justin Perdue: Two quick comments—and this is both relating to our pastors and our eldership. We were having a conversation recently and one of the guys said, "We have some really hard things going on in the lives of people here at the church." We were all lamenting that and praying for those things. I made the comment to the guys and they completely agreed that one of the reasons why there are so many hard things that we are aware of in our church, that people are aware of in our church, is because for the first time in the Christian lives of many of these people, they actually feel free and safe to talk about it. They're sharing their struggles, they're opening and baring their hearts, and they're confessing their sin. At times it's dark, it's ugly, it's real, it's sad, and it's grievous—but it's being brought into the light so that we can love each other and deal with it.  
  
Two, as pastors, one of the things that we do in our elders' meetings is we pastor each other and we talk to one another about how we're doing, and then we pray for each other. To keep this accountability thread running, my accountability group, so to speak is, is the pastors of CBC. In a very deep and intimate way, these men know my life. I talk with them openly about my struggles and the things that are going on, and they do the same with me. Even though we all feel safe to do that, that does not mean for one second that there's complacency in the room or apathy in the room about sin. There's not. You can tell on the face and in the countenance of every man who's talking about his struggles, who is talking about how hard this has been, or this has really been bad, you can see the grief and how much the guy cares. He wants to honor God, and he hates this, but he keeps finding myself doing it. Then he asks for prayers.  
  
I think that's how it goes, Jon, in terms of our experience. I want that for all the saints who are under my care. I know you do too. We want that in as much as we can affect it. We want that for people who are listening to us on this platform, and trying to find a context where this can be your reality.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Two things that are very strange for a lot of Christians: the New Testament is very clear that your primary source of growth actually comes through the church, through the administration of your elders, teaching and preaching, encouraging you, and fellowship.  
  
Justin Perdue: And I would say we are conduits of God's grace and we are the instruments the Holy Spirit uses in that way. Amen.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. That's where your growth comes from. It's also where your protection comes from. Ephesians 4 talks about being tossed about by every wind of doctrine, Galatians 6:1-2 talks about those who are trapped in sin. How is it they get out of sin? Read the Bible, pray, and you'll get out of sin. Discipline yourself, do a checklist and you'll get out of sin is not what Galatians 6 says.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's your brothers and sisters, and the mature among you. Those who are spiritual should restore those people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Often when you're trapped in sin, trapped means like an animal stuck in a trap. Like your leg is broken and you're not getting out of that snare. Someone has to come.  
  
What I love about this type of accountability is that it is gentle, patient, and loving, and we just don't do this. Church discipline should be gentle, patient, and loving where we go in because we too understand. Paul says lest you too fall into sin. Those who understand their own frailty are loving, caring, and freeing those who are in over their heads. I will tell you that the Christian life is never designed to be lived alone. This is why they struggle with sin. Some people have the same sin that they've been ensnared into forever, and they feel alone and cold, there's no rest, there's no happiness, there's no joy in the midst of chaos. It's because they don't use what's been availed to them: the ordinary way in which God says this is how He cares for you. He cares for you within His family. It's not you and I; it's all of us. It's God and His children. It's not God and I.  
  
Justin Perdue: Sometimes when we say things like you're saying right now, in the ears and minds of some, this might sound like or come across as a slap in the face to the Holy Spirit. It's like you're saying that the Spirit of God can't change me—me and the Holy Spirit, or me and the Holy Spirit and my Bible—that I can't just be changed by those still small voices within. God will work however He chooses, but He's been very clear in His word how He normally works. So, no, it's not a slap in the face of the Holy Spirit to tell all of us that we need pastors, teachers, shepherds, and the church because this is how God works. It actually would be a slap in the face of the Holy Spirit, who inspired Scripture, to deny that that's true; it's a slap to say I can just go at it alone, and that the Holy Spirit and I will handle this. You are the one that is actually swimming against the current by saying that when the Holy Spirit is working in and through you, doing it through the means that He has revealed in the word—namely pastors in the church, your brothers and sisters, and the fellowship of the saints. That is how it's going to happen. We're not trying to short sell the power of the Holy Spirit, but we're just trying to be clear biblically about how the Spirit normally works—and it is in the context of the church.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Amen. That's all I got, brother.  
  
Justin Perdue: Thank you again to our members for your generous and kind support of Theocast. We pray that you keep supporting this ministry and encourage friends, family, loved ones, other members of your church to give Theocast a listen and consider supporting us as well. We hope this has been encouraging, helpful, and clarifying for you.  
  
As always, we love to hear from you, our members. Give us any feedback that you have. We read, we hear you, and we're grateful for you. We look forward to speaking with you in this special members' area again next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-cravings-of-the-flesh-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/cravings-of-the-flesh/)

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### The Cravings of the Flesh (Transcript)

*Published: December 2, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/the-cravings-of-the-flesh-transcript*
*Tags: homosexuality, saint and sinner, Sin, struggle with the flesh*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/cravings-of-the-flesh/)**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Here at Theocast, we aim to herald the message of Jesus and the rest that is ours in him. We also encourage the saints to show compassion to one another because of Christ and the gospel, but that does not mean for one second that we are soft pedaling sin. In fact, sin is far worse and it's a much bigger deal than many of us think that it is. We are all born with lusts and cravings and passions and desires that are wrong. Jon and I are going to have a conversation about that today.  
  
There are all kinds of implications for life in the church, including accountability, which is where Jon and I will go in the members' podcast area. We hope this is clarifying and helpful to you. Stay tuned.  
  
The conversation that we're going to have today is an important one. This is one of those days where Jon and I were talking about various things before we hit record. We actually had a different episode planned to be recorded today, and we called inaudible because we got into a very good and lively conversation between the two of us about what we're going to discuss today.  
  
Here at Theocast, I rejoice in this reality and I know Jon does too. I know that Jimmy does as well. Even our taglines and all that would reflect this—we are known for heralding the finished work of Christ, pointing weary saints to Jesus, and extolling the mercy, the grace, the power, and the sufficiency of Christ, and then heralding the message of rest that we have in Christ.  
  
That's what we're going to continue to do. It's what we're all about. I know that we are tremendously encouraged as struggling saints ourselves as we consider what Christ has done for us. Here at Theocast, this is also a really good thing. We are known for presenting a compassionate perspective when it comes to the struggle and the battle that often characterizes this pilgrimage called the Christian life, but we don't ever want to be misunderstood. Sometimes people hear the message of rest, sometimes people hear the emphasis on compassion, and might wrongly assume that that means that we are somehow soft pedaling sin. In fact, as Reformed Christians, we have an understanding of sin that is very robust and want to come in and say that sin is actually a far bigger deal than any of us naturally think. Sin is far worse than any of us have ever conceived of it being. It has all kinds of very practical implications for us in our lives, in terms of our experience in our fight and our battle and our struggle. We want to have a conversation today about sin, about our fallen nature, and what that means for us at the level of lusts, cravings, passions, and desires. We all have them.  
  
The Bible speaks to these things and what the Bible has to say about this stuff, sometimes, even for those who have dipped their toe in Reformed and Calvinistic thinking, I think sometimes this can be a shocking reality for some. Certainly for the broad evangelical out there—if you're listening, we're thrilled that you are—this may be a presentation of sin that you maybe have never heard before that we would stand by, that we think the confessions speak to, and certainly we think the Scripture speaks to.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Sometimes I think the world has a better theology of sin than we do. They describe it as this: we're just human. They understand humanity equals struggle: weird cravings and things that aren't natural. In their psyche, they understand there are certain things that aren't natural. Because of that, it's part of being human. When we become Christian, that seems to get flipped. It's as now that the Spirit lives within me, and now that I've been transformed, the cravings are supposed to be gone away with—which doesn't make any sense.  
  
There are a couple of things that you're going to hear us touch on and help you explain. One is a sinner-saint reality: a very important theological concept where you have the Spirit, and you are still in the flesh as far as your body is concerned. Paul describes this in Corinthians as a new kind of creature that has never existed before. There never existed a sinful creature with the Spirit dwelling in them. We're a new kind of creature. We misinterpret that as new creation, meaning that old things have passed away, behold, all things are new; therefore you should not struggle and have these cravings.  
  
Secondly, there's the concept that closely ties into this, which is we are not this way because we sinned; in other words, we act and therefore we have become—we are this way because we have been born this way. This kind of gets into what you are going to touch on, Justin, which is Ephesians 2\. It really unfolds the state in which we are born, and that becomes the natural cravings by which we struggle with.  
  
Justin Perdue: Absolutely. We're dealing here with a biblical understanding of the fall of man and a biblical understanding of what it means to be born into a condition or a state of sin. The place that we're going to start, as Jon already said, is Ephesians 2\. The language that Paul uses there, especially in the first three verses of Ephesians 2, is very helpful and is a great launching point for us here.  
  
Ephesians 2:1 and following read this way: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." Just a few comments there. We were dead in our trespasses and sins; this speaks to what we are naturally—and this is another podcast for another time. We weren't just sick and in need of healing. We weren't just broken and in need of fixing. We weren't just dirty and in need of cleansing. We were dead and needed resurrection, and that's what the gospel provided.  
  
But then Paul talks about what is true of all people naturally: we follow the course of the world. In that sense, we do what everybody else does. We are like a leaf or a piece of debris being carried down a stream. We just do things because it's the normal thing; we see a crowd and we're drawn to it. We're like sheep who just follow along without knowing why we're doing it. That's true of us in this world.  
  
We are "following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience". Who is that? If we're following the course of this world then who determines the course of this world? It would be the prince of the power of the air, namely Satan, the ancient serpent, who is the devil, who Paul calls the god of this world in 2 Corinthians 4\. We're enslaved to Satan in that regard. Finally he says we all lived amongst the sons of disobedience. We all lived as sons of disobedience in the passions of our flesh. He's talking about passions, lusts, cravings, desires of our fallen flesh, carrying out the desires of the body—or the desires of the flesh literally in the Greek—and of the mind. We are, by nature, children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Again, to your point, this is not something that we become. This is something that we are in our nature, in our essence, as fallen children of Adam.  
  
What we're talking about in part today is we're thinking about sin and how it manifests itself in our lives. We're using the language of Ephesians 2, and we're going to look at some other passages and we may even look at John. I may reference the 1689 chapter 6, paragraph two and three, where we're thinking about the passions, the lusts, the cravings, and the desires of our fallen flesh.  
  
Not to bury the lead, I'll just go and say this and we'll, we'll unpack this more as we continue the conversation: because of sin, because of the fall, we all naturally have cravings, lusts, passions, and desires that are wrong.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That are contrary to the nature of God and the original design of humanity.  
  
To help understand this, in Ephesians 2, Paul says we've been gifted something. What we've been gifted is faith and our union with Christ. We become one with him not only in the blessings we shall receive, but also his Spirit becoming one with our Spirit. Now he empowers us not only to believe but to obey.  
  
The one thing that's very clear in Scripture that has not been gifted to us, which is the result of our faith: it's an already, not yet. We've been promised a new body where sin will not reside—that's glorification. We don't have that now. So there's this duality that's happening, which is I can believe in God and I can even obey God, but I can't do it perfectly because I'm still entangled in my own flesh. What ends up happening is that Christians don't feel as if they can confess or admit that they have wild passions. What I mean by wild is that they're unnatural to God's intentions. They're untamed.  
  
Justin Perdue: Let me take us now to Romans 1, because I assume that this text is rising up in the minds of some. We want to make some comments here. Romans 1 is also helpful in trying to think about what we are as fallen children of Adam. In several points in Romans 1, and this in particular is the section verses 18-32, but even more specifically beginning in verse 24, Paul is going to use some interesting language. There's already been talk about how we have exchanged the truth about God for a lie; we suppress the truth and unrighteousness—that's just what fallen people do.  
  
Romans 1:24, "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen." He's going to go on to talk about, "For this reason," verse 26, "God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the du penalty for their error." Verse 28, "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not be done." This is the reality that we all are born into. Sometimes in America, you'll hear pastors talk and Christians talk and they say, "America better be careful. If we don't do what we ought to do, then God's going to do this. He's going to give us over to this." To which we want to come in and say hold the phone. This is something that God has done. This is our reality in Adam as fallen creatures; we have been given over, to use Paul's language, to the lusts of our hearts. We've been given over to dishonorable passions sexually, and we'd been given over to a debased mind to do what ought not be done.  
  
A couple of comments by way of clarification. When Paul will even talk about homosexuality in this text, he says that women and me each exchange natural relations for relations that are unnatural. One of the things that we're going to contend for in this podcast is that because of the fall, a biblical, robust understanding of sin would actually help us understand how people are born, and grow, and hit puberty, and have always been attracted to people of the same sex. That's something that people experience, in a Reformed understanding of sin, would explain; that things no longer are the way they ought to be in a Genesis 3 world. We are born and naturally have cravings that are wrong. We all do.  
  
What Paul means by natural relations there—I think we could make a few comments. One, heterosexual union is normative. A heterosexual union is the only means of procreation and heterosexual union is God's design. That's what he means by natural relations. We don't need to get mired in the weeds here, but sometimes Christians will mean well, and they will try to contend that certain kinds of cravings and lusts are actually not natural to man but are decisions that people make, that they're actually stuff that people sign up for and make conscious choices for. What we want to say is actually, no, there are so many things that we battle at the level of lust and craving and desire that we didn't choose and that we did not sign up for. At the same time, those cravings and lusts and passions are still very wrong—and we are called to deny them.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I've had friends and church members of prior churches I was at who would say, "Trust me, if I could choose otherwise, I would choose another sin to struggle with. I don't want to struggle with this." To which, I think anybody who has a crippling sin that they struggle with would say this. Part of today's podcast is to try and think through how we can show compassion and not compromise on the gospel. Then I would say...I wouldn't say gospel, I would say compromise on God's Law.  
  
You can't have a pure gospel if you don't have a pure Law. I don't want to compromise on God's Law, and I want to be very compassionate towards all the struggle.  
  
Justin Perdue: And those things are not mutually exclusive, which is what we're here to say.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Within Christianity, it seems like we have patience and compassion for some who struggle with sin. Then there are others who tend to see homosexuality or any type of sexual sin as something that's unforgivable and it's the unspeakable that no one should ever struggle with. Then there's the flip side of that, Justin, that you and I were talking about earlier, where we're so confused on this matter because we've been influenced by the culture that to say anything against struggles with same-sex attraction is not loving. To put God's Law in as loving as we can is wrong, and it's more compassionate to not say anything. To make a stand or to make exception in these circumstances is a confusion. What we're trying to do is come in and point to what the Bible says. Let's look at it and say we can be loving, patient, and compassionate and still offer with full confidence God's Law.  
  
Just a brief interjection on that. A lot of times, people accuse even us and those who espouse a theology similar to ours. They'll say that we are a part of the hyper grace movement or something. I bristle at that term because I don't think that you can overemphasize grace biblically. What people mean when they start to talk about hyper grace, or whatever, is they're actually talking about a confusion of what grace is and what the point of grace is; what's it for?  
  
Hear us say this: grace does not exist so that we can call things that are wrong as right. Grace does not exist so that we can say that sin is okay. Grace exists because sin is wrong, and because real wrong exists and we all do it, and therefore we cannot stand on our own. We have to have a righteousness and an atonement that somebody else accomplishes for us, that is given to us by grace through the means of faith. That's what we are saying. There is a huge distinction in what we're saying and then saying that sin is okay, or saying that there really is no such thing as something that's wrong because we all struggle.  
  
Justin Perdue: Before we move forward, we've already talked about Ephesians 2 and Romans 1\. I want to read from the 1689 London Baptist Confession very quickly. This is chapter six, paragraphs two and three. Chapter six is the fall of mankind and sin and its punishment. This is helpful in thinking about what happened to us when Adam and Eve fell and what this means for us now as children of Adam and Eve.  
  
1689 London Baptist Confession, paragraph two: "By this sin," this is the original sin of Adam and Eve, "our first parents fell from their original righteousness and communion with God. We fell in them, and through this, death came upon all. All became dead in sin and completely defiled in all the capabilities and parts of soul and body." Every aspect of our person has been corrupted and affected. That's a big deal. Paragraph three: "By God's appointment, they were the root and the representatives of the whole human race. Because of this, the guilt of their sin was accounted for, and their corrupt nature passed on, to all their offspring who descended from them by ordinary procreation. Their descendants are now conceived in sin and are by nature, children of wrath, the servants of sin, and partakers of death and all other miseries—spiritual, temporal, and eternal—unless the Lord Jesus sets them free." That's great language. It's robust, it's biblical, it paints an accurate picture of what happened to us in Genesis 3 when Adam and Eve sinned. It depicts the ruin that we have all been plunged into.  
  
So it should not surprise us that we have desires and cravings that are natural to our fallen nature, that are wrong and contrary to what God says is right. This is why I get very confused sometimes when I hear Christians talk. They mean well, I think, and I alluded to this earlier. For example—and I'm not trying to pick on sexual sin here but this is always a very charged up topic and people get worked up over it—if we're talking about same-sex attraction, Christians will buck at the idea or will do everything that they can to disprove any notion that people could ever be born with a certain proclivity, or could ever be born with a certain set of lusts, cravings, and desires that would lead them to be attracted to people of the same sex. Christians wrongly understand and assume that if people are born with that, then that somehow exonerates them of any kind of guilt; if it's natural to me, if I'm born with it, then I can't be told that I'm wrong to want it. I just want to say time out. Do you not realize that every single one of us is born with all kinds of desires and cravings and passions that are wrong? Bible 101: this is what it means to be a fallen child of Adam. It means that you are born not righteous but corrupt, you're born not good but wicked. Why are we shocked that we would naturally desire things that are wrong? This speaks to the depth of our ruin that this is how we all are.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would even say it's natural to crave sin. Obvious. And there's variety as far as what you will crave. It will have varying intensities; it's really strong for some people and it's really not for others. There's no explanation other than the flesh has different desires than other people. For instance, we could even just some people eat when they're stressed, some people drink, some people sleep—everybody does something different by nature that is not helpful.  
  
Justin Perdue: Your constitution.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. If we're going to talk about "this is how I was born therefore everyone needs to accept it," I would say there's a large amount of people who are born that are not monogamous, that they have desires to be in relationships, that they are born to be not only in physical but mental relationships with multiple people that are intimate, and that God says is inappropriate. We could argue that any Christian who shows up to our church and says, "I was born to be with multiple people. I was born to express my love and desire with more than one person." It sounds more acceptable to say it that way. "I was born to be with the same gender as me." Then this person next to me says, "I need you to accept me because God designed me to be with multiple people and experience love, and the joy of love, with more than one person. I need you to accept that."  
  
Justin Perdue: Here's a controversial thought that just popped into my head. Sometimes in the culture anyway, and sometimes people talk like this in the church: "Nobody should tell me who I should love." You're going to have to take that up with the Lord, on the one hand, because He commands our affections all the time. He tells us what and who and how we are to love regularly in His word. To make that claim that nobody should tell you who to love—I think the Lord actually has. We could talk about that maybe some other time.  
  
I want to pick up on something you said, Jon, that I think is important. We are not trying to say that everybody struggles in the exact same way. We are not saying that the intensity is the same for every person when it comes to these various cravings and lusts that we have. We're also not saying that all sins are the same in terms of the consequences that they bear and bring with them in this life. That would be foolish to claim. What we are saying is that every human being without exception is born with these cravings and passions that are wrong.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. I couldn't agree more. Two things to point out before I get into the next point: if someone comes to me and says, "But Jon, you don't understand. I was born this way." I would say I totally understand and I completely agree that most likely you were born that way. That doesn't justify it.  
  
There are studies out there now that talk about how they can look at your DNA and really tell you what your proclivities are. They'll try to use that and prove to me that homosexuality therefore can't be a sin. Listen, proclivities are a part of humanity. There are people who were born who have this natural desire to kill things like animals and cause it to suffer. It doesn't mean it's okay.  
  
Justin Perdue: For some people it's anger, covetousness, you name it, fill in the blank—and it's as natural as breathing. This is what we're saying for all of us, we don't have to all have the same struggles, but we all have these lusts and passions that are as natural as breathing, that are a part of our constitution, and it speaks to the depth of our corruption and ruin. If anything, in the church in America and in evangelicalism, I think sin is sold short. We don't actually depict it in all of its depth and horror. Which is how we understand what we need.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to clarify that there are people who like to hunt. That's not what I'm referring to. Everybody knows what I mean: torturing animals is not a good thing.  
  
There are two things I want to do here. The reason why this podcast is important is that we need to have the weight of our flesh and the cravings of our flesh upon us because multiple times, Peter, Paul and James, all warn us about the cravings of our flesh and how Satan absolutely will come in and trip us up. The gospel becomes very important because the gospel faith is what helps govern our flush. This is Colossians chapter two where he says that all of these things appear to be wise in controlling your flesh but are of no value. He's talking about asceticism, things about beating our body, strapping our body, or using starvation tactics that don't work. This is why some people will assume that in the Old Testament, they didn't have the Spirit to control them and in the New Testament, they have the Spirit to control them. Therefore, these things should not exist. I am telling you: how can you read your entire New Testament, including 1 Corinthians, and think that Christians, not unbelievers, but it's the Christians who struggle with deep and dark cravings that are damaging and horrible. They're horrible. Justin and I are trying to help the Christian think through why the church should be a place where Christians can come and confess these and people don't drop their jaws. They should not be shocked.  
  
Justin Perdue: Two things that are not mutually exclusive that I want to just beat the drum on and be very clear. We can say that yes, we all, as Christians in the church, have lusts and passions that are a part of our fallen nature that are flat out intense, strong, and can be near crippling to us at points—and it is okay and safe for you to come and confess those things because nobody's going to be surprised that you struggle with that stuff.  
  
On the other hand, at the same time, those passions, cravings, and lusts that you have that you were born with are wrong. Both are true. It's safe for you to confess it and nobody's shocked, and at the same time, it's wrong. We're going to be very clear about what God has said is good for us and we're going to lovingly exhort one another. Towards the things that are good.  
  
At the end of the day, where we land with this and what this drives us to is the Lord Jesus Christ and what he has done for us. This is where I want to pivot briefly to Christ in the gospel. I think what we're saying is absolutely biblical. We come to this text inevitably about every third or fourth podcast because it's so important: Romans 7\. What we are describing is Paul's Roman 7 reality where he writes so movingly and powerfully about his own state and his own war that he's having internally between his flesh and his Spirit—the inner man and his flesh. He writes things that are compelling. In saying that, I find that there is another Law waging war in my members, against my Spirit, and I find that I do the things that I want to do, and I'm not doing the things that I want to do. He ends up landing in a place where he even says of himself, "Wretched man that I am." I think we all have been there where we are battling so hard against these cravings, lusts, and passions. Sometimes it's going okay. By God's grace, sometimes we're doing well, but there are some days where it is unrelenting. It's chasing after us and has its claws in us. It won't let up. God have mercy on us. Lord, who I am a wretch. Who will deliver me? We have only one answer and only one hope and his name is Jesus, and it's what he's done for us. It's such good news. When we're honest about our corruption, when we're honest about these cravings and lusts that we all have, we've only got one place to go. You have a choice to say it's all fine and that it's no big deal, that nobody's wrong; but the Bible doesn't allow you to go there. The Bible says it is wrong. We say we're enslaved to this stuff. It feels like we know we've been delivered from the dominion of sin, but we don't feel delivered. Where do I go? Only Christ. He is your hope and your stay. Only Jesus is your righteousness, and only Jesus can give you forgiveness and absolution, only Jesus can atone for your sin, only Jesus can make right everything that is corrupt about you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think the problem on both sides is one where we will lower the Law and make room for acceptability and saying it's okay for you to have this sin. You can't find the joy and relief that is found in Christ, and the hope and rest that is there because sin will always prevent you. If you harbor sin and you're unwilling to confess that sin, it will remove that sense of rest and assurance that is there.  
  
On the flip side, if you require someone to never have the craving, or they can't have rest is also dangerous. That is not the gospel. The weight of the Law has to come in and say there's condemnation for those who engage and are unwilling to repent, and there's mercy and grace for those who struggle and repent.  
  
What I love about 1 John is it doesn't say you can repent once for one sin. It says that if you sin, you confess it. We'll get into this in a little bit in the members' podcast where we're going to talk about what is accountability and how we skewed that in Galatians 6:1, but where I want us to feel this tension is that the church should be able to come in and not ostracize one sin and be able to openly agree with the culture. Everyone, not just homosexuals, but everyone is born with some proclivity and some kind of bent towards unnatural desires—and you can still have rest and joy in Christ as you battle these, and as you understand that we're waiting for Christ to come and fix all of these desires to where we will have human desires that never contradict the nature of God. But we're not there yet. So we need to be patient, kind, merciful, and look to Christ and faith to find our rest.  
  
When rest became real to me, that was when I learned how to live every day struggling with my flesh and my sin, understanding it's wrong and really wanting to fight against it, but understanding that it's Christ love and righteousness for me that I can relax in and not because I've achieved perfection. Some people will never rest because they think, "Once I stopped struggling with sin, I'll rest." I'm telling you that you can have rest now as you fight and struggle.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's the wonderful message of the gospel: you can have rest and peace and hope in the midst of the struggle against sin. That struggle and that battle is not going anywhere until Christ returns. It's a battle and a war that we have on our hands, and the struggle is real. So we've got to have a Christ and we've got to have a message that speaks hope, rest, and peace into that war. That's what the gospel is. You're exactly right.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you're in the vein where you won't allow someone to have the cravings that are contrary to the Bible, you're going to really prevent people from having rest. Then if you're in the vein where you really don't want people to feel uncomfortable with their cravings—I want everyone to feel uncomfortable with their sinful cravings because you can't have rest in Christ until you realize you need him.  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to give a hearty amen to that, Jon, where I think a lot of times we try to rationalize a lot of stuff and people in the church. Again, with good intentions, we'll say things like, "It only becomes sin at the point in which I act upon a corrupt desire." Wrong. To even desire sin is wrong. We have to get at the level of the heart and the mind. When Paul speaks like in Ephesians 2 about passions and lusts of our flesh, and the desires of the body and the mind, this is what he's speaking to. To have those passions and lusts is wrong, and to be governed by them is what was true of us before. It's only in staring it in the face, calling it what it is, and owning the fact that I often lust after, crave, and desire things that are wrong that ultimately will drive me to Christ and will help me to see the real state of my need. It will help me to see how desperate I really am. Then I'm at the end of myself completely. As Martyn Lloyd-Jones said, the gospel begins always where man ends. When we are at the end of ourselves, we can then cast ourselves upon the mercy of God in Christ because we realized that we have nowhere else to go, nowhere else to look, and nowhere else to rest or stand—and that's critical.  
  
We've said things like this before, but just an observation here: the difference between a Christian and somebody who's not a Christian is not that Christians don't sin and people who aren't Christians sin. It's not that people who are Christians don't have corrupt desires and that people who aren't Christians do have corrupt desires. No. The difference is that for the Christian, we have taken God's side. We have agreed with God that our actions are wrong and that our desires, our lusts, and our cravings are wrong—and we actually are grieved by them. We fight against them, imperfectly but really, and we are looking away from ourselves to Christ for our righteousness, forgiveness, and our peace. That's the difference.  
  
God, by His Spirit will work in us to transform our lives. But that's going to happen at various rates at varying times and why is that? I don't know. We'd have to ask the Lord about that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Paul makes it very clear and I agree completely with everything that he says here. Paul says, “Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual morality, impurity, passion, evil desires, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these, the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them."  
  
So we are not saying the Christian does not pursue fighting the flesh—we're saying absolutely. What we're trying to say is Paul is acknowledging that there is a battle. Paul is acknowledging there are these desires; he wouldn't tell you to put him to death if they weren't there. We need to say that as Paul acknowledges these, so should we. Just saying that they don't exist or they shouldn't exist is just not scriptural. I don't think it's biblical.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's even a theology of the cross understanding of the Christian life where we follow a crucified and suffering Messiah. On the one hand, the theology of the cross means that we too will suffer and we're going to be weak; we're not strong in and of ourselves. But part of what a theology of the cross does is it calls us to deny ourselves and love others. We are called constantly to deny the cravings and the desires of our flesh. That is not legalism. That's not some kind of crazy talk. That's just biblical—and it's the experience of every believer.  
  
The reason the struggle is real is because it's a struggle in the first place. We're actually fighting against our cravings and our sins. I think the saints understand that reality. This has all kinds of implications for pastoral care in the church.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We did an entire podcast. If you're brand new to the theology of the cross versus the theology of glory, you need to hear that podcast. It's available for free. You can go and listen to that. We'll put that in the notes.  
  
I know where you're going and I want to throw out something. One of the struggles I have with this whole conversation is people naturally say, "Okay, so there's struggle. Now we need accountability." I want to say that most people's explanation and understanding of accountability is so gospel-less and without the function of the church. It literally becomes an AA program that I do not think is effective. I'll explain why later.  
  
Justin Perdue: No, I'm tracking with you, brother, and I look forward to having that conversation.  
  
That's where we're headed. We're going to go over to the members' podcast. We're going to talk about what this theology, this stuff that we've been talking about for the last 40-something minutes, what this means for pastoral care, for life in the church, for watching over one another as brothers and sisters in the faith and caring for each other.  
  
As Jon said, there are many unhelpful notions that exist out there. A lot of times when we talk about things like accountability, we end up meaning something and trying to pursue something that Jon and I think is somewhat at odds with the New Testament. If you're interested in hearing that, we're going to have that conversation in the members' area.  
  
You may be new to Theocast and you might not even know what we're talking about when we say that we have a members' podcast. One of the ways that we accrue and gather support for our ministry here and fund some of the things that we're doing is we ask people to partner with us in this ministry. People do that through our total access membership, where folks are able to support us monetarily each month. That's a way that we are able to work to spread this message of Christ and the rest that we have in him to as many people as possible. If you want to know more about our total access membership, how you could partner with Theocast, and the various materials and things that that would give you access to, you can find information about that over at our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. We leave that to you. There's a lot of good stuff over there on the site. Navigate that stuff.  
  
Send us your questions, call us, email us—we always love to hear from our listeners. We look forward to continuing this conversation over in the members' area, and we also as always look forward to the regular podcasts that we trust will be coming your way again next week.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-cravings-of-the-flesh-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-cravings-of-the-flesh-members/)

---

### MEMBERS: The Difference Between Sin and Struggle (Transcript)

*Published: November 25, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-the-difference-between-sin-and-struggle-transcript*
*Tags: saint and sinner, simul justus et peccator, Sin, Struggle with sin, two kingdom theology*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-difference-between-sin-and-struggle/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Preaching that leads to despair versus preaching that leads to encouragement: what do we mean by that?  
  
Justin Perdue: Preaching that breeds despair, preaching that breeds condescension and harshness toward one another. Immediately, when I hear this—and in some ways, I feel bad because this brother has said many things that are useful... not that there hasn't been value in this, and not that people haven't been helped by it—but I think Paul Washer's sermon jam where he basically is telling all the young people that they're going to hell, and this uber discernment stuff where guys get up and start screaming at people telling them to wake up—I think there is a time and a place for that. The Bible speaks that way; it points to people who are in ongoing unrepentant sin. But I feel like that's just the general approach in preaching, broadly speaking, in the Calvingelical world. It Is one of wanting to be theologically precise and scholarly in the approach to Scripture. We want to preach sequential, expositional sermons. That's fine. We always need to look for applications.  
  
But then, I think that many times there is this implicit emphasis and goal of trying to smoke out the nominal believer and those who are lazy or apathetic or who don't love God enough. It just has this fire-and-brimstone, revivalistic, threatening tone to it all the time. It basically becomes this session where the pastor gets up there and rebukes everybody for their lack of love and zeal for the Lord. What that does, I think, is it flat out discourages and crushes the weary, the sensitive, and the tender. It only serves to fuel the arrogance and self-righteousness of those who think they have it together because the ones who think they have it together hear that and say, "That's right. You tell them. They need to get it in gear." It just breeds all the more that kind of harsh posture. Like I was alluding to before, "The people of this church just exhaust me. If they would just grow in godliness and love for the Lord, and joy, and zeal, and everything else, that would be fine. But I'm surrounded by a bunch of slackers." That becomes the posture of many. Then the bruised reeds and the smoldering wicks in the congregation think they might as well give up now because they will never measure up.  
  
Every preacher who preaches this way, I trust, would never want to do that. They would never want to crush the weak, and they would never want to fan the flames of self-righteousness or arrogance. They would never want to do it—but I think they do that not meaning to and unwittingly, because of the theological framework and system that they have, where they have bought into a system of constant improvement. It's kind of a theology of glory. It is pietism where the emphasis is on obedience, performance, affections, and disciplines. How are you doing with those? If you're not doing well enough, you should be concerned. If you are doing well, you should be encouraged.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Going back to your comment about Washer, that sermon...  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm not trying to pick on Paul.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Paul said a lot of great things. People send it to me all the time. Be aware that we're not criticizing everything that Washer's ever said—just that famous sermon. The struggle with that sermon is that he's using the first use of the Law in a Christian context, which doesn't necessarily work that way. You can use the first use of the Law in an unbelieving context, and you should: you should lead the sinner to despair, and then what brings the relief from the first use of the Law is the gospel.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think it's totally fine to preach the first use of the Law to the saints every Sunday, but you give them the gospel. You help them see how much they need Jesus, and then you give them him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What I'm getting at is that he's using the first use of the Law as if it's attainable. That's my point.  
  
Justin Perdue: He's using the first use like it's the third use.  
  
Jon Moffitt: For those of you that don't understand what we're saying, the first use of the Law is a mirror to show you how imperfect you are. You should look at it and say no one can do that. That's the point of the first use of the Law. My discouragement in that is there's a mixture of Law and gospel. There's a lot of Law in that sermon—a lot of Law. If you go back—and I've listened to it several times and I've even read it—there's just not a lot of gospel. What I mean by gospel is he goes straight from the first use of the Law to the third use of the Law.  
  
Justin Perdue: Third use, just to be clear, is to guide our lives in Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. They feel the condemnation and then he goes straight to obedience. The thing is, the gospel has to be that message that you fall on. Paul has gone in and clarified on other sermons and other things that he's preached in, but what it made it sound like is that hope can be found in obedience.  
  
The first use of the Law should come in and crush you, and then the gospel comes in and brings you hope. But the way it sounded like was that the first use of the Law came in and crushed you, now the third use of the Law brings you hope. No, you missed the gospel in there.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's like, "Here's the Law. Be crushed by it. Now go obey." That was basically the message. The Law has crushed you, now go and obey better, and then you're good. That is not a Christian message. The Christian message is this: here's the Law, it has crushed you, run to Christ who has kept the Law for you and who has satisfied for your sins, and now go live in him and live this way. But that's not the pattern that you see—at least not explicitly and clearly preached in many pulpits. There is this collapsing of categories and this confusion that exists. We just go about the business of crushing people with the Law all the time, and then just exhort them to obedience because they should obey—and if they're not, they should be afraid. "You don't want to be a faker, do you? You don't want to be lukewarm, do you? You don't want to be one of those people that Jesus says he never knew you because you didn't take obedience seriously enough." That's the implication.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Even what they consider to be obedience to the Law or what they consider to be a good faithful Christian, I tend to push back on it and say a lot of it sounds like Colossians 2 issues where you're putting requirements on people. Paul says if it's not in Scripture, then it's not a requirement. If it's not given to us from God, it's not something we have to adhere to.  
  
What we ended up doing is creating comparative righteousness charts. When you look at the chart, you're realizing that is not what the Christian should be pursuing. As a matter of fact, that's not even sanctification. This gets into voting habits, what you can and cannot watch, what you can and cannot drink, what you can and cannot listen to. We create these Christian rules. Unfortunately, a lot of these guys are going to point to it and say, "See? You're not a good Christian. You're a carnal Christian. Or you're maybe not even a Christian at all."  
  
John MacArthur makes that statement that you cannot be a Christian if you vote anything but Republican. That's Colossians 2 right there. He just can't say things like that. I'm not saying John MacArthur is a bad man, or I disagree with what he's doing. Those are the kinds of things that if you're not careful, I feel like we're not following biblical patterns here.  
  
Justin Perdue: What you've done by making such a pronouncement that if you vote this way, you're not a believer, you have elevated something that is a tertiary issue of practice. It's a wisdom call but you have now elevated that to becoming a test of Christian orthodoxy and fidelity to Jesus—which is just flat out bananas. We can't do that. The Scripture doesn't allow for that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To John's defense, I understand what he's saying. The moral issues surrounding the two parties is a serious issue. There's no disagreement there that there are some moral issues that are going on, but we have to be careful about creating standards that the Bible just doesn't create.  
  
Justin Perdue: Agreed. And we're not going to go down this road as this is another conversation. Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, but you can be very clear on a moral issue. For example: abortion is sin. Then you can disagree with people as to what is the best way to pursue justice in society. Public policy is complex. I'm just going to stop talking about that before we get way down that road, but this is where we need to be charitable with one another and agree that wisdom in public policy and those kinds of things might lead Christians who all agree on moral issues to make different decisions in the voting booth.  
  
Back to our topic of how preaching is handled in a way that just breeds a lack of charity and all that, and what this sort of preaching sounds like. There's a lot of preaching, not only to some of the things that you alluded to, like abstinence from certain sins or whatever it may be. There also is a lot of preaching towards how we should feel. There's a lot of preaching towards the affections; you should be feeling this or you should be thinking that. It's interesting the way this is done. For example, the pastor sets out to preach a sermon on hope because we should be hopeful as Christians. Then they end up preaching a message that is just flat out hopeless because all they end up doing is lambast the entire congregation because they don't hope enough in the Lord. How does a sermon on hope sound hopeless? It sounds hopeless because you just yelled at me for 45 minutes about how I don't have enough hope, and this did not motivate me or help me be hopeful. Or we're going to preach a sermon on love towards God, for example, or even love towards neighbor. It's ironic that this sermon on love sounds angry. Again, I'm just getting scolded for 45 minutes about how I don't love the Lord enough. All that they've done in those moments is preached Law to us.  
  
In one sense, they have rightly applied the Law that we are to not only obey God at the deed level, but we are to obey, love, and honor God at the level of the heart, mind, affections, and everything else. But the reality is at the end of the day, we can't do it. If all you've done is expose my sin, but you never come in and give me Jesus, it's not a Christian sermon—it's a Law sermon. It's not a gospel sermon, it's a Law sermon. All you end up doing is crushing everybody and then giving us nothing to cling to and nothing to hope in. I just find it to be very ironic, at points, the way that some of this goes down. Whereas if you want to foster and encourage hope and love amongst the saints, what do you do? You preach Jesus Christ. You preach the extravagant grace of God in Christ. You preach the sufficiency of Jesus. You herald that from the rooftops, metaphorically speaking, and then as the saints have been comforted in Christ, now let's talk about some practical things that this means for our love for one another.  
  
If I want to encourage the saints to hope in God, let me preach not only of Jesus and his sufficiency, but let me preach of the utter faithfulness of the Lord and then fan the flame of the saints hoping in God. I don't think it's going to work to just yell at them and tell them that they don't have hope. It's just strange to me, brother.  
  
Jon Moffitt: They are preaching hope, but it's in the wrong direction: they're preaching hope in yourself, hope in your abilities.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or hope in your affections.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Whereas the Bible points us to the hope in God's faithfulness and accomplishing God's purposes in rescuing sinners. That's hope. We are awaiting the return of Christ, and Christ isn't waiting to come back so that we can prove our faithfulness—that we can finally prove that we are good Christians who deserve salvation—that's not what we're hoping. We're hoping that God is faithful to His promises even though we are not.  
  
Justin, as you were talking, one of the things that I realized as a pastor now for many years, and struggling with my own sins, is that the most self-righteous people I find end up being the people who hide the most sin. The people who were the most vocal and constantly slamming others are the ones I tend to find out down the road to have had sins that they were hiding pretty egregiously.  
  
There's a phrase my dad told me all the time when I was a kid. He said, "Son, the loudest opposing person typically is the one who struggles with whatever they're opposing." It wasn't like a one-for-one always-always, what he was saying was to pay attention. It's been helpful for me in the moments where I've sat across the couch or across the table from people who are pretty adamant. I'll just ask them, "How about you just be honest with me? Are you struggling with that sin?" And the look on their faces is adamant like they're saying, "How could you even ask me that?" I would say, "Wouldn't this be a great moment to confess and realize that the reason you're so opposing it is that you actually struggle with it?" I'm telling you, the breakdown has been unbelievable.  
  
We like to feel good about our Christian life. That gives us a sense of control. Then the gospel comes in and says you have no control; you're not in control of it so that no one may boast—that's what Paul means. You have zero control of your Christian life so that no one may boast.  
  
Justin Perdue: Basically, you have not decisively done any of it like God has done it.  
  
One other thought on that whole self-righteousness bit, a lot of times when people make a big deal about something, it's because it's a big deal in their own lives. But then people tend to be very self-righteous about sins. It is not that they make a lot of noise about it; they tend to be self-righteous about things they don't struggle with because it's like, "I don't struggle with that. Why do you?" Or perhaps the worst, in terms of their self-righteousness with respect to sins, is that they understand themselves as having struggled with something and now have victory over it, whatever that means in their minds. They feel that if you would just be as godly and diligent and disciplined as them, you too could be delivered. That's just a nightmare. Praise God for His grace in your life, that He delivered you from such struggle and you don't experience it the same way you once did, but do not for one second assume that that means that that will be everyone's experience because that's harmful in the church.  
  
Last comment is when the Bible speaks in the New Testament, particularly the apostles write of us, for example, being presented pure and blameless before the throne of God. Think Ephesians 1\. We often tend to turn that into getting about the business of purifying ourselves and making ourselves blameless—and that's not what the new Testament says. Think about 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it." Then I think Revelation 7 where John has seen the great multitude that no one can count and is trying to figure out who these people are. He is told that these are the people who are wearing white robes are the people who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, and they are now white. This is what the New Testament means: that in Christ, we have been purified in him by the power of the Holy Spirit working in us, and we will be presented pure and blameless before the throne of God forever and ever. It's not something that we have done decisively, it is something that God has done. That promotes grace and charity, and it only serves to foster the things that we've been discussing on this podcast today in terms of how we want to live together as saints in the church.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Amen, brother. There are so many thoughts, but we just can't today. We're going to save them for another week.  
  
Thank you to all of you for supporting us, participating with us, and letting us rant. We always enjoy putting some thoughts out there. We're trying to be as gracious as we possibly know how.  
  
Our goal is to lead you to rest. That has been our mission and hopefully, you are feeling that.  
  
If you have any questions or concerns, reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you. You can do so at our website.  
  
We'll talk to you next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-difference-between-sin-and-struggle-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-difference-between-sin-and-struggle/)

---

### The Difference Between Sin and Struggle (Transcript)

*Published: November 25, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/the-difference-between-sin-and-struggle-transcript*
*Tags: saint and sinner, simul justus et peccator, Sin, Struggle with sin, two kingdom theology*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-difference-between-sin-and-struggle/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we are going to have a conversation about the difference between sin and struggle. When a Christian finds themselves caught in sin versus a Christian who is simply struggling with despair, discouragement, or depression, how do we—as the church—respond to this type of person? How do we care for them? If you're this person, how do you identify the difference between a sin struggle and an actual struggle with humanity and the broken world?  
  
In the members' podcast, we have a lively conversation about identifying preaching that may be confusing the first use of the Law and leading people to despair, and not actually helping people come out of sin, but pushing them farther into it. We hope you enjoy the conversation.  
  
Today's subject is one of those that Justin and I are very passionate about. The pastor card will come out in us instead of the punchy podcaster who is going to correct all the theology that's out there today.  
  
Justin Perdue: We try not to do that anyway.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We don't. We're going to put on the pastor's hat and we're going to talk about something that I am very passionate about. I think this is a struggle within the broader evangelical world. It's something that my own congregants struggle with, and it's something that Justin and I were just admitting that we struggle with as we walk through our day-to-day lives.  
  
The title of it is _Sin Versus Struggle_, and it is helping us identify the difference between what truly should be repented of and that which is the everyday struggle living in a Romans 8 world. We live in a world that is groaning, that is full of the curse, where there are complications, and we're awaiting the restoration of all things.  
  
The subject goes something like this: when most Christians find themselves disappointed, discouraged, or even in the midst of depression, they see themselves and are disappointed with their response to a circumstance. COVID-19, a loss of a job, finding out you have cancer, the loss of a loved one—these are some examples of that. It leads you into a struggle where you don't see yourself getting better, you don't find yourself to have joy, and you aren't succeeding at life in the ways that you were before, whether it be at home, at your job, in your marriage, or with your children. You feel like things are falling apart. You look at your life and it's one of those moments where you grab a tub of ice cream and watch your show moment. Then you find yourself filling that—that's the only thing that brings you solutions. Then you go to church and you pretend like nothing is wrong, and then that becomes a struggle because you now feel like a hypocrite because you can't admit that you're not doing well, that you don't feel like everything is improving, that you don't feel like you're overcoming this. Now you're pretending like everything is fine and it's not. What do we do with this? How do we handle this? What's wrong with us? Have we done something wrong? That's the scenario we find ourselves in this morning.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'll begin with a few high-level theological remarks just to chalk the field for us before we get into the pastoral application, the word to the struggler, and the word to the church that we're going to try to speak today essentially. We're going to have this conversation with some pretty important theological understanding undergirding it and coming behind it; it's in the background of everything that we're going to say. We're operating from a place of a Reformed understanding of the fall and a Reformed understanding of sin, and what that means for us as fallen human beings. We're operating from a place of understanding that we are, at the same time, saint and sinner. If you don't have those things in mind, some of the things that we're going to say may sound strange to you. But we trust that they're going to resonate with your experience. So consider these things that we're discussing.  
  
From a Reformed perspective, in terms of how we understand Scripture, when Adam sinned in the garden of Eden and plunged all of us into a state of sin, corruption, and ruin, we were affected in every area of our person. There's not an area of our personhood that was not affected by sin or that has not been corrupted. That means that our minds and what we think, our hearts in what we feel, our emotions, what we desire, and even our bodies physically—all of it has been corrupted by sin. That has a tremendous effect on us. In addition, the whole creation was subjected to futility; God cursed it, and so the whole creation is groaning now. That means that the world, in that sense, is fallen and broken and does not work as it should—and we live within that world and it has tons of effects on us.  
  
The last thing, theologically, is understanding that we are at the same time saint and sinner. We are saints in Jesus Christ: our identity is in him. Our status is one of being justified, declared righteous by God, through faith in Christ and what Jesus has done—and we still have a fallen nature; we have not been completely delivered from that. We now have on our hands what Paul describes most pointedly in Roman 7 as a new internal war, where our flesh and our spirit wage war against one another. That has all kinds of fallout and implications for life as a Christian in this fallen world.  
  
We're coming to this conversation with all those things assumed, understood, and in the background. So now, Jon, let's have a pastoral conversation about struggle, and the difference between sin and struggle. Let's try to encourage some strugglers out there and hopefully encourage all of us to love the strugglers in our midst better, and live with one another in charity, grace, and compassion.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We have to identify that there are times of discouragement, there are times of disappointment, and there are people who struggle with depression—meaning that it's not necessarily based upon a sin that they have committed. Not always. I think we have to be careful. In the American culture, one of the things that we love to do is recognize a problem and then move on from it. We hear the media say things like, "We're sending our thoughts and prayers for you." Then it's over. We've had a lot of famous people die this year in 2020\. You hear people say we're sending our thoughts and prayers to you. It's a way to tip the hat and not be a jerk, but what does that do? It doesn't really offer anything.  
  
We do this in the church as well. We hear about something that's really horrible and we're like, well, "Brother, we're really sorry. I'll pray for you." That's all we offer. Then when it's a little bit closer to you, you start hearing advice about how you should be over this already, that you shouldn't struggle with this. "Why would this be a problem for you?" "Why would you be discouraged?" You hear things like, "At least you're not Job."  
  
I guess what I want to say is that when we think about these encouragements from Paul and the New Testament writers about love, patience, kindness, mercy, and grace, where we're bearing one another's burdens—that literally means to get up underneath and carry the weight. There's a difference between carrying the load of someone and saying you shouldn't have that weight anymore, or you should've gotten rid of that burden, or it should not be a burden on you, or you shouldn't be discouraged or disappointed. We go immediately into fixing the situation that maybe can't be fixed.  
  
The danger of this constant upward movement—where everything is always joy, everything is always happy, everything is always upbeat, and you can never have a down moment and struggle—is it's just not the reality of one, the Christian life, and two, it's not the reality of the Bible. Have you ever read the Psalms? David wrote Psalms of absolute despair, explaining his own disappointment and discouragement. Often, he says, "I am in the pit of despair." It's like he's saying that there is nothing lower than where he is at right now, and he's crying out in those moments.  
  
Yet you aren't allowed to have that in the church. You cannot say, "I am in despair. I am disappointed. I am discouraged." It's just not allowed.  
  
Justin Perdue: Some of this is because many of us have not been taught very well as to what the Scripture actually does say. You've pointed out a number of passages already. Maybe read Psalm 77, Psalm 88, and Psalm 73\. There are just so many texts. Psalm 13, "How long, O Lord?" The lament of God's people is just replete in Scripture. They're lamenting because we live in this fallen world and we ourselves are fallen, and the struggle is real for God's people.  
  
Think of 2 Corinthians 1 where Paul says he doesn't want the church of Corinth to be ignorant of the challenges and the struggles that they face brothers. "For we despaired of life itself." We don't talk like that in the church. We tend to not talk the way that the writers of Scripture wrote because we think it impious to talk these ways: we should be content in all circumstances, we should be joyful in the Lord.  
  
Like you said, Jon, I think people mean well; I don't ever want to impugn anybody's motivations. But you come meaning well, equipped with bad theology, and then you tell people that they should be better than they are because the assumption is we should always be improving. Or you shouldn't be struggling like you're struggling because we expect that we are progressing onward and upward to glory. We shouldn't look like we used to look, and that means necessarily in our minds that the struggles we had five years ago should just go away as we're being transformed and changed.  
  
Part of what we want to say here on this podcast today is that you will be sanctified in the Lord Jesus Christ. God has you; He's doing His good work in you by the power of His Holy Spirit, and you being in Christ Jesus and being a new creation in him do not necessarily mean that your particular struggles will just go away, or that they will be easier in 10 years than they are now. Patently and empirically, that is just not true because many of us will fight the same battles that we're fighting today for the rest of our lives—and that actually is meant to give hope to a struggle or not to discourage us. It liberates us to realize that the point of the Christian life is not just that I get better, the point of the Christian life is that I trust Christ through the struggle in the community of the church, and I lock arms with my brothers and sisters as we bear one another's struggles and burdens. We look to the perfect One who has saved us as we are on this pilgrimage to the Celestial City, and there will come a day when struggle will not be our reality anymore—but that day is not now.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is a form of the prosperity gospel where if you do what's right, then God will prosper you in whatever area. Here's a scenario that just happened: the guy that I've been working with, Patrick Crandall, is planting a church with us here next year. Patrick had a friend who just passed away from cancer. He was in his thirties, and he left a wife and three kids behind. Often, we're going to give the wife a grace period to get through that. But then there needs to be this miraculous story about whatever God is doing in her life. What we do is we want to eventually correct her and say, "We know that this is a tough time for you, but aren't you excited that he's in heaven with God?" Instead of carrying her through this death that she's experienced, we ended up trying to correct her. It's a whole lot easier to see someone get through it and just move on than it is to get underneath them. We don't understand that the responsibility of the believer is to see the discouragement, the despair, and the struggle, and you get up underneath there in that dirty, mucky, not fun, slimy, gooey yuck, and say, "I've got you. I'm going to carry you through this as long as it takes. It may take until you die, but I'm going to be here with you." That's what love is.  
  
When Jesus says in John 15, "Greater love has no one than this, than someone lay down his life for his friends." Love is the sacrifice of anything that is beneficial to you. To carry someone's burden is to set down anything that is beneficial to you. There's a difference between someone who is in sin and someone who is in the midst of despair because of circumstance. That's just one example.  
  
I will tell you that recently, I have been struggling. There I go through seasons. It was just my dad's birthday on October 11th and he's been gone now for 18 or 19 years. There are moments where I actually fall into despair and discouragement because I would love to be able to communicate and have experiences with my father that I just haven't had. I can get down, disappointed, and discouraged. Being able to share that within my own men's Bible study, and with some of the elders, helps because I won't have to carry this. These guys aren't going to come over and try and give me a Bible verse to help me feel better. They just come sit next to me and you can hear them sigh. Like, "Man. That's really hard." It's what I call a theological hug. Sometimes you just need a hug. You just need someone to say, "I'm going to hold you for a moment. I'm going to love on you for a second because what you're telling me is hard and complicated." And that's it—you don't offer anything else.  
  
Justin Perdue: We want to make an appropriate distinction between ongoing unrepentant sin and struggle. Those are different things. We're not condoning ongoing unrepentant, high-handed sin as though we give it a pass and say we're all strugglers so we can't ever confront anything. That is not at all what Jon and I are advocating today. We want to say and be very clear that the struggle as a Christian is our normal experience and we are battling against all kinds of things.  
  
Even when we find ourselves mired in sin, and we are finding ourselves ensnared in sin, or there are patterns of habitual sin in our lives, but internally we are grieved and fighting it because we don't want to be there—that kind of stuff is common for all of us. That is part of the struggle that we're articulating alongside things like disappointment and discouragement, that frankly are sometimes reasonable in a fallen world. If we were not discouraged or disappointed by things that we see around us or things that we're experiencing, if we were not grieved, then something is wrong. If we look around in this world where horrible things happen—loved ones die, we bury our children, and things like that—and we said that everything's pretty good, that would actually be insane. We need to understand that for people to experience disappointment, discouragement, despair, and even despondency and depression at points, is not unreasonable in this world.  
  
In a pietistic, hyper pious environment, we tend to equate discouragement or despair with sin—and that's just not biblically true. You can be discouraged and not sin. You can be despairing of something and not sin. You could feel depression about something and not sin. There could be sinful responses to it, but that's another conversation. It's important that we have these categories in our minds that the struggle that we're describing could be things that happen to us, and they could just be the ongoing reality of battling against our own corruption and living in a fallen world. It wears us out.  
  
To not acknowledge those realities and act like that's not the case end up producing tons of bad stuff in the church. It just breeds hypocrisy. We don't talk honestly about what's going on. We don't confess our struggles and our sins to one another. We don't look at one another and say, "I'm not doing well. I'm not okay." We end up living this double life that I think many of us have experienced. We see it happening in the church and we lament that it's the case. But we have to own the fact at many points, our poor thinking has contributed to that reality.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'll even say that it lingers. A lot of people end up going into deeper despair and to deeper depression because they don't have any relief at all. There's no encouragement. There's no one speaking truth into their hearts and into their minds. There's no one there to bring that relief valve. They find themselves discouraged and in despair, and then they hide it. They internalize it. For some people, this is part of their personality: if they have a struggle, they internalize it and hold on to it themselves. But in the Christian community, this ought not to be. But we have created an atmosphere where it's not okay to struggle. It's not even okay to admit that you're struggling with sin. "I hate my sin. I don't like it. I'm underneath its control right now, but I'm too afraid to admit it. Because if I did, I'm afraid of the consequences of how someone wouldn't be gracious towards me."  
  
Justin Perdue: And the reason that we wouldn't be gracious is because we have been so conditioned to think that when somebody says to us, "I'm struggling with this sin. It's habitual in my life. I hate it and I don't want to do it," we have been conditioned to respond, "Brother, sister, if you really hated it, you wouldn't still be doing it." Or, "If you loved God more than you loved your sin, you wouldn't still be doing it." I could talk for hours about how unhelpful that posture is. It's that saint-sinner reality where in my inner man delights in God's Law—and I want to love the Lord, my God, with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength—but the reality is I still live in a sinful body and I have a sinful nature that is still a part of me. I have not done what I want to do completely for one second of my life.  
  
Jon Moffitt: They're in a culture where they don't admit their struggle. They're in a culture where they can't fail, where there has to be constant progress, where everyone is superficial and everyone knows it, but what else do you do? But then I do think there are people who go to church and see seemingly perfect marriages and families. They're doing relatively well compared to everyone else. That's even a pressure that pastors feel. A lot of pastors are leaving the ministry right now because the pressures are just too high. It's too much to deal with amidst the COVID-19.  
  
The reason I'm saying all of this is that when you think about what's coming to you from the pulpit, what's coming to you from broader Christianity, you aren't being trained and taught how to deal with the struggle of life. You are being taught how to become a better you. It's always the improvement of self.  
  
Justin Perdue: You're taught self-improvement in Jesus' name, which we would contend is not the emphasis of Scripture. It's not the emphasis of the New Testament.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As a matter of fact, I agree that we should be improving. But the thing is, what we're improving in is completely... I just did a new members class and in this class, we had several families. The families were saying that this form of Christianity is so foreign to them. They see it and can't unsee it. It seems like Ephesians has completely transformed their understanding and perspective of Christianity. The comment was this: I have always been trained to be focused on me and my individual growth and pursuit in Christ." I know that the Bible tells us that we are to be pursuing holiness and that we should be growing in godliness. But how that happens is not you individually working on you. As a matter of fact, the love of neighbor basically fulfills the whole Law. When you understand that life happens together and it's about bearing each other's burdens, it's about Ephesians 4: "When the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love. Consider how to build one another up in love and good works." All of these coming together. You cannot accomplish that; you cannot accomplish love if you aren't willing to get down and dirty, to accept failure, to accept discouragement, to accept people to abuse you, hurt you, and misrepresent you. All of that is there if you're going to carry each other's burdens.  
  
Have you ever been around someone who is in despair? They will say mean things and they will say hurtful things to you.  
  
Justin Perdue: Something that is important for us in this conversation as we've acknowledged is we are to be improving. But we need to properly define what improvement is and we need to better understand what sanctification even looks like. God is the one who does the work of sanctification, and He often does it through suffering and trial that we would never sign up for. He does that work supernaturally in us.  
  
But then even just the marks of godliness—I think sometimes we get this all confused. If you were going to ask biblically what the number one Mark of a godly Christian is, it's love for one another. That is overwhelmingly the answer of the New Testament. A lot of times our sanctification is going to manifest itself in ways that we have not been conditioned to look for it. We tend to think about our own personal thought life, or our own personal experience of life, or whatever it may be—our affections and things. It's not that those things are irrelevant, but it matters a ton that if we're going to talk about sanctification, you cannot talk about it apart from loving the brothers, bearing one another's burdens and sorrows, rejoicing with those who rejoice, being patient with one another, bearing with one another in love, pursuing unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace I could go on. It has everything to do with how we live together in the church. That's how we see that that guy or that gal is different than he or she used to be. Because look at how he lives in the church, look at how she lives with her brothers and sisters—praise God for His work in that individual's life. But we have not been conditioned to think that way sadly.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I do have a thought on that real quick. I just want to reword something you said. I think this might be a moment of clarity here. Sanctification in the New Testament, if I were to give you examples, is you learning how to love with patience, grace, mercy, and long suffering. Think about the fruits of the Spirit. The fruits of the Spirit are what it requires of you to actually show love. It requires patience, and mercy, and long suffering. This is Ephesians 4: "Walk in a manner worthy of the calling of which you have been called." Then what does he name? Patience, mercy, and long suffering. You go to 2 Peter 1:3 and following. he says add to your faith mercy, grace, patience, and long suffering. So sanctification is you learning how to love other people. But we look at sanctification as praying more and struggling less with sin, reading the Bible more, or being a missionary. That is not what sanctification looks like according to the New Testament,  
  
Justin Perdue: If you think of the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, even that last one self-control—when people think about self-control, they think it's like battling lusts better, or battling whatever else better. It's as though self-control only exists for you. Self-control is for the benefit of your neighbor. Whether it's your lust and cravings of your flesh that are sexual in nature, or whether you tend to be explosively angry and God has worked self-control in you and you don't blow up as often and bludgeon other people to death. Even things like that, we tend to think that self-control exists for me and my thought life. No, self-control is about you loving your neighbor—your brother and sister, and you're going to wound other people far less if you are a self-controlled person.  
  
I'd want to touch on two things before we move into the members' area. One is kind of autobiographical and one is a little more punchy.  
  
Autobiographically, things that I've experienced in my own life recently—and this is not about my own struggle so much, but about how other people around me in the church have struggled with me and I've struggled with them and it's been edifying. We have recently put forward three men who will be confirmed to serve our church as pastors moving forward. The eldership is growing at CBC and we're really encouraged by that. Part of what we've been doing in elder development in onboarding them is to have them sit in on elders' meetings so that they can get a feel for what the meetings are like. At the beginning of every elders' meeting that we do, we sing and we open in prayer. We look at the upcoming Sunday sermon texts, and we read that and pray together. Then we pastor each other. That's what's in our agenda. We go around the table and we share about our lives, guys ask questions, and then we pray for each other. It has been remarkable to see some of these newer guys—who have not experienced this before in this setting—come to the Table and start to share about their lives. We ask very pointed questions or we're sharing about our lives and say very pointed things that sometimes makes us think if they're things we even talk about in the church. We're sharing this stuff, we're crying together, we're praying for one another. One of the guys recently said to the rest of the group that what we did in the last elders' meeting, where we all just shared what's going on in our lives and we prayed for each other, is probably the single most edifying thing that he has ever experienced in his whole life.  
  
The reason I even bring it up, and I feel this too, is it's because it is actually safe and okay to say, "I'm not okay. This has been really hard. This is not going well in my marriage or in my family," or, "I am really struggling in this way. Brothers, I just want you to know. Can you pray for me?" It's a very liberating thing. That's just a microcosm of what we pray is happening in the church broadly. I've been mega encouraged to walk alongside my brothers and my sisters, and be able to struggle openly even as the lead pastor of the congregation, to exercise discernment, and to share what's going on—and nobody looks at me like, "Are you even saved, bro?" Because in some contest, you fear that. Like you said, if I really say what's going on, people are going to question whether or not I'm even in Christ. And I don't think that what you're confessing is unusual—I think it's the struggle of most people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I don't think that this can really happen on a Sunday morning. I believe Sunday mornings are designed for the saints to be fed, equipped, and to serve one another in these ways. The church needs to be creative in ways to find those avenues where you can break down the walls and be allowed to admit those struggles.  
  
For instance, my greatest desire is that when people show up on Sunday morning and they see each other, they have this look where they look at each other and they know what the other one is dealing with. There's this look of, "Brother, I love you. Sister, I love you. I'm glad you're here." They don't have to pretend or be fake.  
  
Justin Perdue: I trust that's happening in your congregation, and it's happening in ours here imperfectly but really, where people do show up and they're asked how they are doing and they say not well. The look is not one of condemnation but one of, "I get it. I'm with you. I love you. Talk to me."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Or they'll say they're doing great, but I know what they mean: what they mean is they showed up anyway. Part of me carrying that burden with them is to love on them, to care for them, and to say, "It's okay if you're discouraged this morning. It's okay if you're disappointed in your circumstances. It's okay if you're battling depression. Because you are going to receive mercy and grace from Christ. You're going to receive that which is spiritual that you cannot find anywhere else. We're going to carry you through this moment of discouragement. We're going to carry you and hold onto you as long as it takes." Because that is what the purpose of the gospel and the church is for; the gospel is the good news for the weary believer who just can't seem to figure it out. And the gospel messages—guess who did? Christ figured it out. He completely brought you everything you could not bring yourself. There's nothing that's left.  
  
The discouragement you are facing is the reality of the current circumstances you still find yourself in. You're still living in a world that has not been redeemed. Even though you yourself have been redeemed, you live in a world that has not been redeemed; your body has not been redeemed. So you need to hear someone speak to you the message of the gospel. I've said this in the past and I've gotten trouble for it: the primary means of the gospel should not be coming from you. It should be coming from someone else because we're not really good at telling ourselves what's wrong with us and we're really not good at telling ourselves good news. This is why the design of the church is to gather and receive the good news, because we're not good at pulling ourselves out of pits.  
  
Justin Perdue: We're not the best at preaching the gospel to ourselves. We need other people to herald the gospel to us, for us, and over us. I agree completely. It only squares with things that we say all the time that the gospel is objective and it's outside of us. If we're always looking outside of ourselves to save what's wrong in us, why do we assume that strength and all these kinds of things will always come from within? Or that from within, we would be able to preach to ourselves? I understand that we have the Holy Spirit living in us, He does His work in us, and praise be to His name that He does. At the same time, I am going to need other people to walk with me and point me to Jesus—and that is God's design. That's His plan. That's what He has set up for us in the community of the church.  
  
A parting shot for me—and some of this may sound a little punchy, but I hope to land it with, with something that's more compassionate—is we have had experiences in our church where we have had members who mean well, who have very high expectations of other people's conduct, godliness, joy in the Lord, or whatever it may be. They say things about their brothers and sisters that are less than charitable at points. I've had people in the past—guys that I've known in the church that are trying to spend time with other people—come to me and say, "The people of this church just wear me out. Spending time with people exhausts me." Implication: "All these people are just struggling far too much. They're not godly enough. They should be more joyful. They should have it more together. I just don't know that I can keep doing this whole spending time with people that are like this." My reactions to that in the moment—and I aim to be kind and under control—is I'm thinking, "Brother, you might want to look in the mirror and assess yourself honestly for a moment in terms of your own struggles, the bends in your frame, and how you are probably not as godly or obedient as you think you are. Maybe you would be more humble and charitable." Do you hear yourself talk? You're saying that spending time with struggling saints—who are trusting Christ, whose lives are hard, and who find themselves fighting a battle that they feel like they're losing a lot of days—that spending time with those dear people is exhausting to you and you just don't know that you can keep doing it anymore. In addition to looking at yourself, consider the calling of even being one of Christ's people. As I read Scripture, we are called to do that very thing: spend time, bear with one another, bear one another's burdens, weep with people. Don't just fix them because it's not possible, but point them to Jesus and love them.  
  
If we find ourselves with that kind of thought of not wanting to keep loving people, I think that's a serious problem. If our theology ever leads us to a place where we have that posture, it is an indication of seriously skewed thinking.  
  
What we are encouraging today is a New Testament pattern, a gospel, grace-driven pattern of love for one another, and acknowledging that the struggle is normal and real, sin is not okay, and we are called to bear with one another and to point one another to Jesus as we limp along as pilgrims and sojourners in this life.  
  
It really irks me, as a pastor, when people look at me and say, "The people of this church are just not godly enough. They need to get their act together. They're absolutely exhausting me."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Here's what I want to talk about in the members' podcast. I'm sure there'll be a lot of other things, but I think that when you listen to the tone of the New Testament, Paul is pushing the believer towards love and unity in Christ to deal patiently with those who struggle. I think modern day preaching, especially in the Calvingelical world, is based on fear tactics to get people to start acting more holy and they are setting the standard of holiness that may not even be the true standard of what holiness is. Preaching that actually creates despair instead of encouragement,  
  
Justin Perdue: It creates despair and breeds condescension and hardness toward one another. Sadly prevalent.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What does that look like? What does that sound like? We're going to do that.  
  
For those of you that don't know, Theocast's way to support our ministry is to continue to write more books, provide more classes, and provide more resources for pastors around the world. Justin and I have been doing a book study on covenant theology for pastors, and we have had several pastors from Australia, India, Canada, and others—all of that is funded through our membership. Our membership is a way for people to come alongside and partner with us. We consider you our partners in ministry. You can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com to learn more about that. There's a free trial there.  
  
We're going to jump over to the members' podcast. For those of you who want to join us over there, thanks. If not, we'll see you next week.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-difference-between-sin-and-struggle-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-agree-to-disagree/)

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### MEMBERS: Agree to Disagree (Transcript)

*Published: November 18, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-agree-to-disagree-transcript*
*Tags: denominations, Doctrine, how to disagree, Level of Doctrines, Primary Doctrines*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-agree-to-disagree/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast. Jimmy and I just want to start by saying thank you. The new series on covenant theology is something that we pray will be beneficial for years to come. We should have the small group questionnaire and handbook available soon, hopefully very soon, so that you can start taking advantage of that reading through it. We just really are excited about a lot of the new material that we have coming your way.  
  
Again, please just know that we would not be able to afford to get that edited and produced if it was not for our membership. Thank you for that, and thank you for your ongoing support.  
  
So this is a fun one. Jimmy, kind of started it out. Why don't you give us a little bit of thought where you're going on this?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right now where we are seated in terms of the date, we are entrenched in the presidential election. Every four years—particularly if you follow the Christian blogosphere—the think tanks, the discernment ministries, come out with their blog that says the litmus test of being a Christian is determined by how you behave in the voting booth.  
  
Let me just say, for those of you that are unaware, that the two kingdom theology is very helpful here. If you're unaware of that, go Google the rabbit hole and let us know what you find. A two kingdom theology understands that there is a distinction between how God operates in the world and yet how God also sets up worldly structures and so on and so forth. But also, I think something that is always lacking is a clear understanding of what it truly means to be free in Christ and to have what our church confession, the 1689 London Baptist Confession, calls the liberty of conscience. This is in chapter 21.  
  
I want to read paragraph two where it says, "God alone is Lord of the conscience, and he has left it free from human doctrines and commandments that are in any way contrary to his word or not contained in it. So, believing such doctrines," meaning man-made ones, "or obeying such commands out of conscience, is a betrayal of true liberty of conscience. Requiring implicit faith or absolute and blind obedience destroys liberty of conscience and reason as well.  
  
This is just something that is everywhere right now. Obviously, Facebook and Twitter algorithms know that I'm a Christian, which is kind of creepy, but I get all of these sponsored ads saying, "Are you a Christian? Here's your guide to voting. Are you a Christian? Here are the issues that you need to be concerned about. Are you a Christian? Here's the way to vote in November." It's almost as if the litmus test of my faithfulness as a Christian, or the litmus test of my orthodoxy as a Christian, is determined by my behavior in the voting booth. I just take so much issue with that because it's that whole implicit faith idea.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I have it on good authority that there are chapters of the SBC that have literally sent out voting guides. There are ones printed and available to come pick up at your local chapter of who you should vote for.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If we're going to be honest, what are most of those voting guides on? They're on who is pro-life. Certainly, I am pro-life but sadly, politically, pro-life doesn't extend to many other people.  
  
Jon, I guess the question is whether our orthodoxy as a Christian is determined by how we vote this November.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It can't be because it's never told to us in Scripture that that is the litmus test for Christianity. Unfortunately, guys like John MacArthur, who has made the statement that you cannot be a Christian if you don't vote for Donald Trump, is ridiculous.  
  
Listen, I don't disagree with John's sentiment. I understand what he's getting at is as far as the candidates that are available. There are candidates that seem to be more morally leaning in a direction that is going to be... Theocast is not here to tell you who to vote for, and if you vote for not Donald Trump, or you vote for anyone else, it doesn't mean that you're a bad Christian or you've done something wrong. That is a Colossians 2 moment. You cannot let someone hold that authority over your head. That is not in Scripture. We are told to submit, Romans 13, to our governing authorities. We're told to pray for them. We are told to live peaceably with them.  
  
Here's my biggest struggle—and I'll just be pretty blatant about it: most of the turmoil that goes on in Christianity and all this fighting that goes on politically are people who have put their hope in the American government, assuming that if Americans make the right decisions then God will bless us, and we'll continue to live in peace and prosper. People are more concerned about their prosperity, their peace, and their comfort than they are about being God-honoring. So they lose the mission. The mission given to the believer is the advancement of the gospel through the church, through the function of the church, and we are to trust God's going to accomplish His mission whether it's through the United States or not. America has only been around here a couple of hundred years. God doesn't need the United States to accomplish His mission of the gospel going forward. And dare I say, the gospel has been prosperous and growing in times of turmoil, not necessarily in times of peace and comfort.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I would say that actually the gospel tends to grow best and extend farther.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If they're going to look at it from history, that is true.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Do I love the United States of America? Am I grateful for living here? Absolutely. 100%. I value things like religious liberty. I value things like freedom of worship. I love that I'm able to meet in a public space with my church and worship God. Of course, I value that. At the same time, a lot of times when people talk about how we're going to lose our freedoms if this person gets elected—are we going to lose our freedoms or are we going to lose our comforts? Most of the time, you're more concerned about losing your comforts. It's time to put on some big boy pants and realize that when it comes to the church, we have the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against Christ and his church. We believe that to be true.  
  
Whether or not we have a D or an R in the White House actually does not deter God. No purpose of His can be thwarted. Again, everybody is saying they get that. But you say that and yet it's like the evangelical approach—this is where we see American flags and cannons, and we're singing a battle hymn of the republic every Sunday during election season. It's almost like we want this theonomy set up where we're aiming back for a Christian nation that frankly never existed. But this whole idea of having no law but the 10 commandments and all these other nonsense, where what do we see that the Scriptures call us to do? We pray for our leaders. Why? So that we could live quiet lives.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Jimmy, I think that's super helpful. I know there are probably people yelling at the podcast, however they're listening to it right now.  
  
The goal of what Jimmy and I are talking about here is to relieve this pressure. Two things: for those of you who are hot on social media and your families, and you're driving home and you think it's your responsibility to save American Christianity, I'm just going to tell you right now that God doesn't need you to save anything.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Changing somebody's mind on Facebook is like Bigfoot. Everybody has a story of how they've seen it, but nobody's actually ever seen it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: My encouragement to everybody on this is that, going back to what Jimmy was saying, I preached a sermon this last week called _Living in Two Kingdoms_ from John 18\. In that sermon, I'm trying to explain how Jesus himself says his kingdom is not of this world. If it was of this world, his kingdom would be fighting for him right now. They wouldn't let him just fall into the hands of the Romans or the Jews. His kingdom is not of this world.  
  
You have Paul talking about the mission of the believer, which Jimmy's already talked about: the unity of the church, the unity of Christ, the catholicity which is all of us gathering together. What are we trying to accomplish? We are trying to accomplish gospel advancement, not theocratic advancement. We are not trying to create a nation that is governed by presidents or kings who are Christians. The church of England tried this and it failed; the Catholic church tried this and it failed; because it's not the design that God has. In spite of evil governments, according to Romans chapter 13, God uses them for the sake of protecting the innocent. He calls us to submit to them. We are not to go against the government.  
  
Even in some of these most recent protests where Christians are going out there and they're saying they're standing up for their rights—that's not advancing the gospel. You're out there just causing a scene. You're creating public notice and all everybody is saying is you're no worse than anybody else who's out there creating a public scene. That's not advancing the gospel. It's definitely not showing love.  
  
I know there are a lot of different opinions and people say that if you don't stand up for your rights, they will be taken from you. My answer is, should you be spending all of your energy and time defending your rights or advancing the gospel?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Frankly, is this really what you want to be known for? I have a lot of people recently giving me a hard time because I just post pictures about food. That's fine because the rest of them are posting things that are so vile that I feel like I just need to put something out there that says life isn't so bad.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Make social media social again.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: As a pastor, I don't tell my people how to vote. We can have lively political conversation, but at the end of the day, you vote in a way that doesn't violate your conscience and I'm cool with that. We can have conversations about candidates, platforms, and issues, even in my own household—I'm just thinking of my brothers and my dad—we have a constant text thread right now where we are going back and forth about some political things. It gets very lively. But at the end of the day, to draw a line in the sand and say that my dad has different political views with mine, therefore he is an inferior Christian—you're taking something and you're actually adding it to the gospel. It becomes Jesus and conservative politics or Jesus and liberal politics. I would like you to meet my friend Galatians. He would like to have a word with you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Jimmy, to that point, I think we have to be careful. I know there are a lot of Christians out there that will not vote for the only candidates. In other words, they have to have a candidate that they agree with primarily -pretty much all the big issues they have to agree on. I've heard people say that if there were no candidates they agree with then they are not going to vote. Here's what you have to understand: America is a very unique situation. Christians, for thousands of years, did not have these opportunities.  
  
As a matter of fact, when Paul wrote Romans 13, who was Paul writing to? Who were they under? They were under Nero. Do you guys know anything about that man? Vile, vile, vile man. He's telling them to submit and they had no choice. They had no opportunity to vote—there was no voting. He wasn't telling them to rise up and fight back against this vile man—it's not what he was saying. But given the opportunity, if you have the opportunity to suppress unrighteousness and protect the innocent, you should always choose the lesser of two evils because that's what the majority of the world has had to do for most of our lives. The United States has been a unique situation where we can actually choose a candidate that does have some pretty great moral values—maybe not perfect, but maybe better than others.  
  
I think as Christians, even if you can say they're both not good but this one's going to at least do less harm, I think scripturally speaking, you should still do whatever you can.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Even the things that you're just saying, people can say they have different categories for what causes less harm. Go for it. As long as you're not violating the conscience or binding other people's consciences, go for it. This is why unity is such a fragile thing within the life of a church, to bring the conversation there. Unity is such a fragile thing within the life of the church. We can easily become like this disunified overnight; to be unified is difficult work as a pastor and as church men and church women. Most divisions within church—where do they come from? They come from one person or one group trying to bind the conscience of another person or another group.  
  
Funny story in the first church that we worked in. I remember we had our first child; he was not 72 hours old, and we had a family in the church come to us and say, "What are you going to do about schooling with your kid?" 72 hours old. We kind of laughed and we realized they're serious. They went on to say that if we don't choose this particular method of education of our children in our household, we are in sin and they can't worship in our church. That is what you would call a binding of the conscience. It's something that Scripture never speaks to.  
  
Jon and I have chosen different methods of education for our families, and we can have conversation with that, but I'm never going to bind my brother's conscience over it. I can be very opinionated, but I'm never going to bind his conscience and Jon will never bind mine. Rather, we have the liberty of conscience to do and choose things that Scripture has never spoken of to us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Those people don't do too well in our churches.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: No, they don't last long. Typically all it takes is one beer and they're out.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I got an email recently from a guy who was thinking about moving to Spring Hill. In the email he asked me, "I need you to answer these questions before I visit: what is your theological position on the role of women in the home and education for children?" I know what you want on both of those and I'm not going to reply.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Again, I'm glad that people care about those things because obviously it's important. We care about the education of our children, and so on and so forth. We care about political things. But when those become the chief concerns, those people are just not going to last long in our church or yours.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In our church, we have public, private, and homeschool, and it's a good mixture of all. My kids are in both private and homeschool. There are some great public schools down here and I have no problems with them.  
  
The thing is that God never promised that your kids or your family will end up being more or less godly or safe depending upon your educational system. That wasn't even a thing in the Bible. We divide and create lines where someone is going to be dishonoring God unless they choose this. That's Colossians 2 all over again: you can't do that. It just does not say that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If you think about it like a soccer field—I'm not going to use a football field because I like soccer more but I won't bind your conscience; you're just wrong—there are distinct lines on the field that create distinct categories of play. It would be like me going out with my white spray paint can and I just put a line there, and somebody arbitrarily walks over it and I yell at them and say they violated the rules. Actually, no, I didn't; that rule was never there to begin with.  
  
Ultimately, I think why we wanted to have this conversation is because when we bind another person's conscience, guess what that does? That puts a giant stone in front of their understanding and reception of the gospel—and that's something we just don't want to do.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I will tell you that life will be a lot easier once you learn how to disagree agreeably. I will promise you that for sure. Justin, Jimmy, and I are very passionate about our theological decisions. We did not come to them lightly. We don't just say we think something is the best. We are students of the word, we suffer long hours and toil and struggle, and have very long, important conversations. Please don't think that we're saying doctrines don't have a point and that the gospel is the only thing that's important. All Scripture is profitable and all Scripture should be studied. We just have to be careful on where we're going to draw or divide the lines on some of these conversations.  
  
That was a helpful conversation. If you have not been to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members, don't tune me out here. Listen up carefully. That is the homepage for members and we are stacking it full of new stuff for you. If you haven't gone there, go there. We've got new classes. We've got the private podcast feed. You can get all of our stuff on your phone. It just automatically downloads. You don't even have to go to the website.  
  
Go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members so that way you can stay up-to-date on everything that's going on. We're going to be providing new stuff all the time.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/agree-to-disagree-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/agree-to-disagree/)

---

### Agree to Disagree (Transcript)

*Published: November 18, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/agree-to-disagree-transcript*
*Tags: denominations, Doctrine, how to disagree, Level of Doctrines, Primary Doctrines*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/agree-to-disagree/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we talk about how to disagree agreeably. There seems to be drawing of lines in all areas of theology and even politics. Christians seem to get really upset and don't know how to disagree, and when they do get behind the keyboard or a phone, they seem to lose something called the fruits of the Spirit. Jimmy and I have a lively conversation about theological disagreements between different denominations.  
  
That also leads into the members' podcast where we discuss politics, Christians, and disagreement. We hope you enjoy the conversation today.  
  
Through the history of Theocast, this is something we have learned as we have grown as a podcast, and as we've brought different hosts on: our podcast is where we talk a lot about what we disagree about and things that we point out that we think is wrong.  
  
One of the things that Jimmy and I were discussing before we came on the podcast is that disagreeing with someone agreeably is a lost art. Especially when someone gets behind a keyboard or behind their phone, they dehumanize the discussion and they will say and do things that you would never do in person. They even would take up arguments or positions that they probably don't hold, but they want to make a point so bad that they desired it to be right. I've even seen comments from people I know personally that they would never say in person.  
  
One of the things we wanted to talk about is where we, Jimmy and I, disagree with broader evangelicalism, and how it is that we can agree with them even though we disagree—to find some agreeableness around theology.  
  
Then we're going to talk a little bit about where we have struggle, where there are points that really bother us and those tend to turn up the heat on us a little bit.  
  
Jimmy, start us off. Broadly speaking, we partner with a lot of people. We disagree with them and I think we do it agreeably. What is it that centers us and where do we find ourselves in certain areas saying that we wouldn't agree on those grounds?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right now, in my world religions class, we're walking through Christianity. Even though I teach at a Christian school, I never want to assume that the vast majority of my students understand the basic things of the Christian faith. So we're walking through core tenants of Christianity right now, and this is a conversation that we're having.  
  
In really large letters on my whiteboard, I wrote the word "nuance". Something that social media has done is it has removed our ability to have a nuanced conversation. We've lost the art of having a conversation with somebody in a way that's kind and generous and gracious. I was just texting with some friends the other day and we were just talking about the ninth commandment: don't bear false witness. Often in a conversation, that's all we do. All we do is break the ninth commandment and we bear false witness. It's like we begin the conversation with the goal to obliterate our opponent rather than to reach mutual understanding—and when our goal is to merely obliterate our opponent, one, we're not seeking to understand those who have been created in the image of God and give them the dignity and respect that we should as people. Two, again, we're bearing false witness. We're not understanding them on their terms.  
  
Jon, you and I have had some passionate conversations on the phone, I think specifically on your porch—we just sandbag everything until we get together and then we let it all out. But the thing is, what centers my relationship with Jon Moffitt and what centers my relationship with Justin Purdue, even though we are three pastors at three churches that are similar but not the same, is the gospel.  
  
I know that at Jon's church, he and his elders preach Christ and Christ crucified from all of the Scriptures. They're seeking to help their people find rest in Jesus Christ in Jesus Christ alone. I know this is the same for Justin. I believe that these guys say the same thing for me.  
  
Our worship at all three of our churches looks different. We have different convictions of how things go about, but at the end of the day, this is why we can partner with people. I'm just going to name a few: guys like Chad Bird. Chad is a Lutheran. Certainly, Chad and I doctrinally disagree on some things. Yet I know and I trust that at the end of the day, Chad can preach a gospel of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, on the count of Christ alone. That is the center of what grounds us and what holds us together. Even something as ecumenical as reciting the apostles creed, that these are the truths that the Christian church has recited throughout centuries, and if we can recite these, believe these, and trust these wholeheartedly, then we can jive together. That's where I would begin—is really the gospel.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think that's good that you mentioned the Apostle's Creed because it does create so much unity within. If we're talking about those to whom we are going to partner with at Theocast, and we have partnered with, and we have had on our podcast Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, and non-denomination. We've had a good, broad perspective of people that are on here. The three of us are 1689 confessionally Reformed. This is a conviction that we hold to.  
  
One of the conversations that I wanted to have is that within Christianity, one of the issues that really bothers me is that we get so concerned on what I would say are the second level or even third level issues. We begin to argue and fight about them, and denominations get really heated. There are these ongoing conversations. We have people who are not understanding the gospel, who don't understand assurance, and justification has been lost in the wind. It breaks my heart. I have strong convictions and disagreements with a lot of different denominations, but we have to remember what the primary mission and goal of Christians is: it's the advancement of the gospel.  
  
If I can partner with people that I know are preaching a true and pure gospel—they are leading people to truly rest in Jesus Christ and him alone and are not placing the Law and burden on people, they're separating the Law from the gospel, and on the secondary issues of how the function of the church and eschatology and even modes of baptism—I may never serve in their church, and they may never serve in mine, but I have no problems promoting their message and encouraging them to continue what they're doing because the gospel message is going forward. I don't think the Baptists are the only ones who got it right. I know some denominations have really strong opinions on that.  
  
What this conversation is about is I think Christianity has lost its way. I'm not saying we should all be one denomination. No, I think the nominations are helpful. People have convictions and conclusions about the Bible and I think they should hold to those. But the reason why Theocast is not going to ever isolate ourselves is because we think there are good men and good ministries doing good work, and we should partner with them, promote them, and make sure that work continues because more people are going to rest in Christ if that is true.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I want to summarize a couple of things that you just said. When we talk about Scripture and the gospel, we want to be mindful of clarity. We want to be clear. We want to be clear about the things that we mean and the things that we're teaching. Whenever we're chasing after clarity, that necessarily means that we're going to create some categories. Whenever we necessarily create categories, that is where we begin to draw some distinctions. Don't hear us say, as you just said, that we're aiming for just one big, lovey-dovey denomination.  
  
Now, when we recite the Apostle's Creed, what do we say that we believe? We say we believe in the holy catholic—that is the universal church. Certainly we want to aim for catholicity, meaning we keep in mind the universal church, and we want to be in partnership for the gospel, moving forth to all nations, to every tribe, tongue, language, and nation. However, when we create these categories or when we seek clarity, we have categories, we create distinctions, there is a difference—and here it comes nuance. There is a difference, in my mind, between distinction and division. Distinction allows me to be defined by categories, and through the process of seeking clarity, from my Lutheran brothers and sisters. There's a distinction. However, that doesn't mean that I have to be divided from them.  
  
We live in such a binary time where you're either Democrat or you're Republican. You're either right or you're left. You're either conservative or liberal. You're either this or that. Again, we've lost this ability to have nuanced, helpful, and generous conversations.  
  
Do I have distinctions from Lutherans? Do I have distinctions from Anglicans? Do I have distinctions from Presbyterians and so on and so forth? Absolutely. They would say the same things about me and one another. But do I have to be divided with them? No, I don't think that that's actually very helpful.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's very helpful. I like the distinction versus division.  
  
One of the things that I experienced growing up in the denomination that I was in, and I still see it today, is that we create wrong dividing lines. Jimmy and I would agree that there are Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Lutherans that would say, "I don't even know if you're evangelical." We are going to drop the hammer of division going, "No, you missed the gospel. Where the Bible is clear saying, you're saying it's not. That's not evangelical. We're going to have to divide over that." This is where people come in and ask where the dividing line happens. At what point do you drop the hammer?  
  
There are primary doctrines where Theocast—Jimmy and I—have no problems partnering with as long as we can agree on these primary doctrines. We're talking about the doctrine of God, the doctor justification, the doctrine of depravity—these are doctrines, we believe, that if you remove one of these primary doctrines—the trinality of Christ, the Trinity—you remove these and you actually are messing with the gospel at this point.  
  
We have to be very careful on these primary doctrines, where we look at them and say we agree. We may even explain them a little bit different, we may even have different language, but we're all coming to the same conclusion. We might say certain ministries are more helpful than others. Some more clarifying than others. Not just because we agree on the primaries are we going to say they're clear on all our other areas. Part of Theocast, we would say there's a lot evangelicals out there that we disagree with and we think are unhelpful, which is where I'm going next.  
  
There are secondary and third issues. For instance, if Jimmy has a man in his church that desires to be an elder, but there are some massive disagreements on the function and role of an elder or even women in ministry—there are some that are very hard for the church to get unified between Jimmy and a separate elder who are leading the church in two opposite directions, and we're not talking about small opinions like "I like guitar" and "I like piano." We're talking about massive understandings of how the gospel ministry goes forward. On a personal level, on a church level, those become a little bit more important because we need to have as much unity as we can when it comes down to a local body. This is why there are denominations. People look at Scripture, they do their best to interpret Scripture, and they find themselves leaning towards a denomination that they think has the best interpretation. That creates unity. At Theocast, we're not anti-denomination here. Some people think denominations are bad. In a sinful world, I think they're necessary.  
  
Where I want to go next is that Jimmy, Justin, and I—one of the struggles that we have is that even in this primary doctrine, this first level, one of the problems that's happening in today's world is that primary issue—that primary doctrine of justification, the doctrine of God, the doctrine of the Trinity, the nature of God—all of this is becoming questionable in how people are presenting these doctrines. I would say they're being careless. They're not using a historical theology to help govern them, which is why we're big fans of confessional theology.  
  
A good example of this is final justification. That doctrine that's come to be plaguing all kinds of denominations right now is a good example of a primary doctrine where they aren't necessarily fully heretics teaching it, but they are being very careless in what they are presenting.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: A lot of times, where a lot of these things happen to go back to clarity, categories, and distinction, is that these distinctions—and I would say even these categories—get collapsed into one another. We see a collapse of the doctrine of the Trinity, an understanding of the one essence of God, that distinction and role and function, and yet we'd collapse all of these things. Where were most of the heresies in the early church? What were they around? They were around the Trinity or Christological heresies. We're just recycling old heresies, to use that language.  
  
Again, particularly when it comes to the gospel, if we're thinking about what's the most important question that a person can ask in their life—which is most likely, "How can I be saved?"—we want to be able to give them a very clear, assuring, and comforting answer that we find this good news of the gospel.  
  
This is what I'm preaching on this week in my church: 1 Corinthians 15,that Jesus Christ has died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was an historical person, and that he rose from the dead for our justification and that there were actual eyewitnesses to this truth.  
  
When we begin to take the gospel, as you said, Jon, we begin to become reckless or muddy with it where we are no longer giving a clear approach to how it is that people can find rest in Christ. We can no longer find what it means to be forgiven of our sin. This is when you start to see the guys that Theocast—and many others—become really fiery. I can just speak for myself of the damage that it really does to people, the damage that it can do to an individual who, even though they might have the Jesus fish on their car, are just inwardly tortured by their own sin because the gospel has never been truly explained to them. That's where I personally get really fiery.  
  
I always find it interesting that the people who kind of get on my case for being—in their language—divisive over stuff like this are the same people who have no problem changing churches because they don't like the worship style.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Or children's ministry.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Exactly. I say we need to have a conversation about primary and secondary doctrines.  
  
I don't know if you want to speak into that as well, Jon.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I do. This is where the longer people listen to Theocast, they start picking up what really does become most important. I think Christianity needs to be working more and more on clarifying the gospel, and bringing greater amount of clarity, because the clearer Christ is to the believer, the more they can rest and the more joy they can find. Instead, I feel like a lot of what Christianity is built around is building bridges to sell righteousness. We tend to push Christology and the, uh, the gospel to, "Okay, but that's what God is saying. We really need to get down to the crux of what's going on here." We begin to mold and mix in together justification, the way in which our standing is before God, and sanctification, that which God uses to transform us into His image. Those get pressed in together.  
  
I just want to make an example here. I love guys like Michael Horton. I love our Lutheran brothers who understand the role of justification, sanctification, the Law and the gospel, and they keep those things separate, and they press in _sola fide_ into the believer. That is someone that I absolutely want to read, to listen to, to be shepherded to, to encourage people to listen to and be shepherded by. They are making primary the gospel. In all of the other areas, they become secondary.  
  
Where my struggle is, to go back with what Jimmy is at, is that sometimes we draw lines and disagreements, and we begin to call people heretics. The things that will be said are unbelievable. It's just pure, old-school fundamentalism. It's all it is. If you don't agree on every single point, on every single doctrine, they will not only refuse to promote or recommend you, but they won't give you a platform with their people. It is so inclusive and divisive that it is confusing. Every doctrine becomes a primary doctrine. Everything becomes an issue. I've seen this in the Presbyterian world and in the 1689 world, where the most ridiculous doctrines that should never make it to a primary level, Christians are fighting over, dividing over, will not associate, and won't even talk with each other because there's a disagreement on a particular doctrine that is not a primary and has never been a primary in the history of the church.  
  
We have to be careful in making sure that we look at what Scripture procures as a primary. For instance, do you have services on Sunday morning and Sunday night? Maybe not. I've seen people being called liberal heretics because they don't have church on Sunday night. Have you lost your mind?  
  
Varying views on the Sabbath is a great one. Sabbatarianism is another one that I see a lot of people fighting over, and it's disheartening.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If everything is a primary doctrine, then nothing is a primary doctrine. If everything is primary and central to the justification of the believer, then nothing is.  
  
I just want to throw this out there that praise be to the name of God that we are not saved by right doctrine. Praise be to Jesus Christ that we are not saved by perfect doctrine. Because frankly, to think that we have perfect airtight theology is rather arrogant, and I've been guilty of this. I think this is what should drive us, as we interact with people that we disagree with, is not this obstinate desire to be correct, but rather a spirit of humility and gentleness and respect, and also understanding.  
  
I have a friend that I really respect. He asked great questions. He said something to me a while back where it just landed on me and impacted me. He said that when he approaches a dispute or a conversation that is of a lively manner, he said he tries to shift and begin with assuming that he's wrong or he's misunderstanding. He said that that has helped him as he's interacted with different theologians and different people who he would disagree with, because it helps others to be humanized. Frankly, this is why battles on Twitter and Facebook are just so nonsensical because you can type something and walk away, and not have to bear the consequences of body language, hurt feelings, or whatever. It dehumanizes conversation. Frankly, it's why we are so polarized today not just theologically, but politically. It's because we dehumanize people. People just become subject of memes.  
  
We have to be so careful that as we're talking about things, we hold tightly that which God has given us to hold tightly, which is Christ and him crucified for the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, through faith alone, on the count of Christ alone.  
  
And everything else—and when I say everything, I know a lot of people are going to throw up their hands—but when it comes to the things outside of what the church has confessed ecumenically throughout centuries—the Athanasian Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Apostles Creed—I think we need to win back or take back what Paul urges us in 1 Corinthians 13, that has less to do with weddings and more to do with how we talk with one another: in a spirit of love. It's the spirit of wanting to aim for unity.  
  
What if, when you approach conversation that had disagreement, your goal was unity and not to be right?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Without giving up conviction.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's right.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Because what Jimmy and I are not saying is lay down conviction.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: No, unity and uniformity are not the same thing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Nope, they're not. That's absolutely true.  
  
In Christianity, we talk a lot about being godly, holy, and pursuing sanctification. What is interesting to me is that somehow the fruits of the Spirit and holiness are getting separated -godliness and the fruits of the Spirit don't go together. We're talking about meekness, gentleness, humility, and being patient. These are all fruits of the Spirit.  
  
Godliness is patience, it's meekness, it's humility. It's preferring one another. When we get into these theological discussions, patience, meekness, humility, and preference go out the window. I've been in these discussions around certain topics before. I just have to sit back and ask, "What are we doing here?" Because you will hear arguments like Calvinism versus free will, or pedobaptism versus credobaptism, or different than not. You start hearing arguments get thrown out there. They go from having this gentle, loving, brotherly conversation to saying things that are mean, hurtful, and have no benefit in what was said or what was written.  
  
One of the things that I think is lost is the art of discussion. We're not able to have meaningful dialogue without there being offense and saying things that are frankly offensive.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I like that you talked about the fruit of the Spirit. Just last night at the men's group, one of the guys in our group was emphasizing how the Christian life has _extra nos_—it's outside of us. We receive the gospel outside of us. But also, Luther talks about this and the freedom of the Christian, that we also become _extra nos_ as we walk with others, that we are freed by the gospel to love and serve our neighbors generously. Even the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control—tell me one of those that only benefits the individual.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm going to be patient with myself.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Give yourself some patience. Who talks like that?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Self-control, maybe.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Maybe, but if you're married, self-control is really going to benefit your spouse.  
  
Even those are _extra nos_ fruits of the Spirit—they're outward-focused. It's not only that we receive the benefits, the goodness, and the grace of the gospel _extra nos_, outside of ourselves, but we also give it. Not that we become livers of the gospel. We don't live the gospel—we receive it. Rather, we give the grace that has been given to us in Jesus and we give it freely to others.  
  
I know other people are going to say, "You're just a pietist now." If that's pietism then call me a pietist.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's piety.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Exactly. We've been walking through 1 Corinthians for a year. What's Paul's major concern in 1 Corinthians 1? The gospel to unity and love in the church. These are _extra nos_ realities.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As a matter of fact, I think that is the majority of the epistles.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Oh, hands down.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Ephesians, for sure. Colossians, for sure. 2 Peter, for sure.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Galatians.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Galatians, for sure. They're fighting over the Law.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: So unity is not this lovey-dovey liberal mindset. I think a lot of people hear ecumenical and what they think is they have to start wearing like rainbow vestments and becoming universalists. No, that's not it at all. Rather, I think part of maturing as a Christian is you know where to draw distinctions without drawing division. We can draw a distinction about our views of baptism. We can draw a distinction about our views of liturgy. We can draw a distinction about our views of end times—and maybe we'll talk about this in the members'—we can draw a distinction about our views of politics. But to divide over some of these things does not do anybody any favors.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In my own experience, it took me longer to come to the Reformed covenantal perspective because of the way in which I was groomed to be so divisive in my disagreement.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Combative.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Combative. Thank you.  
  
It wasn't until the Lord really broke me down through different circumstances, and just humiliated me theologically, that I realized I don't know anything. I don't even know what I don't know. That's the scary part.  
  
I have had some of the most God-honoring, encouraging conversations with men from all kinds of different backgrounds that I definitely disagree with. In the end of it, I come out loving Christ more, knowing my brother better, and in some ways I shifted my thinking, and in other ways, it only confirmed that the position that I'm holding is, I think, the correct position.  
  
Again, all of these discussions are centered around not justification or not gospel issues, but we're talking secondary issues. We're talking about church polity, roles, or how different things function, end times, etc. I've got a pastor friend who is a dispensationalist. We talk about dispensational theology and end times, and they've always been great dialogues because he and I know how not to be combative. We come together to understand each other, but really what we're trying to do is ask ourselves if we really understand the Scripture fully. Am I really embracing all of Scripture as best as I know how? I honestly think he thinks he is, as a dispensationalist, and I know I honestly think I am, and yet we can still have community and union in our disagreement.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Somebody is going to say, "When I'm speaking the 'truth', I am being loving." Frankly, because you have Paul say, "If I speak in the tongues of heavenly beings but have not love, I'm a banging cymbal." Often, what combative mindsets will do or say is, "I'm speaking the truth, and if it sounds mean, it's not mean—it's loving."  
  
Jon Moffitt: The phrase actually says, "speaking the truth in love".  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Certainly there are going to be some degrees where that actually is true. When people say, "You can't preach the exclusivity of Christ because that's not loving," no, actually that is loving. But when it comes to a lot of these secondary doctrines, when it comes to a lot of these secondary practices of the church, saying you're speaking the truth is code for, "I'm just being a jerk."  
  
Jon Moffitt: They should be angry with what you said, not how you said it.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Exactly. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Where we're sitting right now, even in our political climate, one of the hot button issues right now is we don't even have to talk about baptism or vestments or liturgy or this or that. All you have to do is bring up the presidential election and people are going to flip. Maybe in the members', we talk about how we should approach the idea of liberty of conscience—what our church confession in chapter 21 talks about. How do we approach liberty of conscience and politics? We've had some conversations about this.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I preached a sermon this last Sunday on John 18 when Jesus says, "My kingdom is not of this world." He was unlocking more than people could even imagine. I definitely have some thoughts on that. Our modern Christianity has placed so much hope in the American government thinking that God is using that to bring about His new kingdom and shocker: God doesn't use Babylon, Rome, or America to accomplish His good pleasure. We'll definitely talk about that.  
  
For those of you that don't know, if this is your first time listening to Theocast, we have a membership—really, it's our partnership. It's a way that people come and support us so that we can continue to create this podcast, books, and new classes. We have several new classes on covenant theology and Calvinism, and a lot of extra reading material. All of this is made available because of our monthly support. You can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com to learn more about that. For those of you who are members, buckle up. I know Jimmy has got some good stuff waiting for you. I can't wait to hear his thoughts.  
  
We'll see you over in the membership.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-agree-to-disagree-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-agree-to-disagree/)

---

### The Covenant of Grace in the Old Testament (Transcript)

*Published: November 11, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/the-covenant-of-grace-in-the-old-testament-transcript*
*Tags: 1689, 1689 federalism, Covenant of Grace, Covenant Theology*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-covenant-of-grace-in-the-old-testament/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: In this section, we are going to be covering the covenant of grace. This is an introduction. We're not going to give you an exhaustive view of this. We talk about this all of the time so we are going to do our best to keep this as an introduction.  
  
The covenant of grace is an unconditional covenant, meaning that if we look at the two parties involved, we have God and us, the elect people of God. Then the one acting is God and all of the conditions are placed upon God. He will do this. He is the one who has all of the conditions that must be met. Then for us second party members, the reason why it's unconditional is that there's nothing placed on us to do. This is why we use the language of grace.  
  
Sometimes people confuse mercy and grace. Mercy is to not receive what you deserve and grace is to receive that what you don't deserve. When we talk about the covenant of grace, God is making this promise. He is putting conditions upon Himself and we are the recipients of it. We are going to receive forgiveness of our sins through Jesus Christ, and we're going to receive the righteousness or the obedience of Jesus Christ - and all of that comes to us by grace through faith alone. That is a quick definition and an overview of the covenant of grace.  
  
Justin Perdue: In the covenant of grace, we talk about what it is that we are receiving. We are receiving the merits of Christ; he has satisfied for our sin, he has atoned for it. He has provided us positively with righteousness and everything that is his is ours, and that includes an inheritance of a new creation. We will be a part of his people forever in that sense.  
  
It might be good right now to explain the term "covenant of grace". Even further, someone may ask legitimately why it is called the covenant of grace? Why don't we just call it the new covenant or the old covenant? Why is this type of language used? One, the covenant of grace is a helpful term in that it makes very clear the contrast of grace and works that we see throughout the New Testament. One other thought here is that the covenant of grace is promised before the new covenant comes. It is helpful for us because there is one covenant of grace in all of Scripture through and under which all of God's people from all time are saved. It is useful to use this covenant language of the covenant of grace because it helps us to explain that united plan of salvation that God has always had.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Old Testament and New Testament people are saved by the same covenant.  
  
Justin Perdue: They are trusting in the promises of God realized in the Messiah.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We need to explain or show where this covenant of grace is revealed and taught in Scripture. Where we need to begin is in Genesis 3:15\. What we see is what is known historically as the proto-euangelion or the first gospel. It is the announcement, the promise, and the revelation that is made to Adam and Eve. Though the serpent has won the battle that day, he will ultimately not win the war. There will come one from the line of Eve that will crush the head of the serpent.  
  
In essence, this contrasts it with the covenant of works that there will come someone from the line of the woman; there will come someone who will do this for his people. That's the first place to go. This kicks off this whole idea that we see throughout the Old Testament. We've mentioned this before in previous sessions of this idea of types and shadows.  
  
Justin Perdue: Before we start talking more specifically about types and shadows, for the sake of clarity, we want to be really precise in how we understand the covenant of grace. We understand that the covenant of grace is promised and revealed beginning in Genesis 3:15\. It is continually revealed through farther steps throughout the rest of the Old Testament. Then the covenant of grace proper is established and accomplished through Christ in the new covenant. It is promised and revealed in the Old Testament, beginning in Genesis 3:15\. Through farther steps, it becomes increasingly clear as we get to Abraham and Moses and David, and it becomes clearer until finally we get to Christ. The covenant of grace is established and accomplished through him in the new covenant.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That language of promise becomes really important. In this promise to Adam and Eve in the Old Testament, you will always hear "the seed of". It is always in reference to the man - the seed of the man. What is interesting is that in this promise that God gives Eve, He does not say the seed of Adam because if it was, that means that the sin of Adam would be passed down and he couldn't be the replacement. He would have to pay for his own sin. So God says something very fascinating: He says the seed of Eve. Jumping to Luke 2, you have a virgin and the Spirit will come and bring that seed.  
  
Justin Perdue: The question is who is the father going to be?  
  
Jon Moffitt: You're seeing a connection now between the covenant of redemption and the covenant of grace. The covenant redemption says God will come and save His people. Then you see this tiny promise. The covenant of grace, the actual covenant that saves people, is not there yet. But it's promised to Eve. Then you have this big question: how do we know which one?  
  
Justin Perdue: Who is this promised seed? That is really what the rest of the Old Testament is getting us ready for. That question is bringing increasing amounts of clarity, too.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There is drama in the story too, because all these people are being born and the world is growing. All of them have the rebellious nature of Adam. It's clearly none of these people. It gets so bad that God wipes out the earth but still keeps the promise because He said it has to come through the line of Eve. So Noah is preserved and now we at least know it's coming through Noah. Then God says He will never destroy everyone again, otherwise, He would go back on His promise.  
  
Justin Perdue: He's going to sustain the creation because the seed of Eve is coming. He is making sure that the world into which that seed is going to be born is going to be sustained. That's the purpose of the Noahic covenant in that regard.  
  
Jon Moffitt: All those who believed the promise that came from Adam and Eve, which I'm sure they told their children, it was accounted to them, and they were saved. We'll learn more about this as we get into the New Testament and Romans when he says that God passed over former sins reenacting the covenant of grace.  
  
Justin Perdue: Shortly after Noah, we get to Abraham, which is a big milestone. Beginning in Genesis 12, we hear of a man. Initially, his name is Abram but God changes his name later to Abraham, and we'll just refer to him as Abraham throughout this time.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to make one interjection here before we go forward, because what we're about to explain to you is our perspective of the covenant of grace and the covenant of Abraham.  
  
If you were to take the Westminster Confession and the Savoy Declaration if you were to take Reformed theology and understanding covenant theology, we are in almost 100% agreement on it - the covenant of works, the covenant of redemption, that there are two covenants or bicovenantalism. In the 1689 London Baptist Confession, there is even more broad language that would allow some variants here. During the time of the 1689 being formulated, for the Baptists, there was a full commitment to understanding how the new covenant works. There are going to be some differences in how we're going to explain the Abrahamic covenant and our view, which is the 1689 Federalism view. It was the view that was held by the majority during the time of the confession being made. This is also where you're going to see come changes between us and the Presbyterian view. You can make that comparison later because that's not really what this podcast is for. We want to give you an overview of what we would say is the majority view of the 1689.  
  
Justin Perdue: Let's pick up with Abraham beginning in Genesis 12\. We see that God calls Abraham out and He makes a promise to him in Genesis 12, that we would see as the promise of the covenant of grace. Paul will even pick up on this in Galatians 3 and say the gospel was preached beforehand to Abraham, and he cites Genesis 12:3.  
  
There is the promise of the covenant of grace made to Abraham. Then there is a covenant formerly made with him in Genesis 15, and in particular in Genesis 17, where there is land promised to Abraham. He has promised that kings and rulers will come from him from his line.  
  
It's important that we see that God promises that these things will happen. "I'm going to make sure that a nation comes from you, that rulers come from you, and that a land will be given to your offspring." It's unconditional in that sense.  
  
But then there is a conditional piece of this covenant of circumcision that is established in Genesis 17 where it is very clear that individuals may be cut off from the people of God through disobedience. If they are not circumcised, they are cut off. There is an unconditional promise to the nation - land, rulers, and people - and there is a conditional promise to individuals underneath the covenant of circumcision. Alongside that, with Abraham, we see the promise of the covenant of grace that is unconditional, and it is to the elect, to the spiritual seed of Abraham. That is our understanding.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When he makes the promise "from your seed," singular, "all the nations of the world will be blessed," he is talking about Jesus. You are hearing that language of seed again. Eve is protected in the Noahic covenant, and now we know what is coming through Abraham through this nation.  
  
I think it's important that you are able to explain the difference of the conditional and unconditional well. Abraham and this land are going to start becoming a type and a shadow - it's not the actual substance, and it's not the actual covenant of grace yet. It's a covenant of circumcision with Abraham that has conditions that the people must meet, but it's a shadow of that which is to come.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even the fact that a land of Canaan is promised. When the covenant of grace comes, what is Canaan a type of? It's the new heaven and the new earth.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The land by which Hebrew says they were looking forward to.  
  
Justin Perdue: "Rulers will come from you, Abraham." What is that a type of? It's a type of the great King named Jesus.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right before they go into Egypt, it is said that through Judah will come a King. Before that happens, they are going to spend 400 years in captivity and then they will be redeemed. You have these little promises. If you're reading your Bible and you don't have this covenant, and you're anticipating what's going on, it's a jumbled mess. But with it, now you are understanding that it is all connected. There is this fine line that is connecting every single word and it has a purpose and it's rolling in its narrative.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: This is where it's helpful to understand and have this covenantal language and framework. What does it prevent us from doing? It prevents us from looking at Abraham as an end in himself and that Abraham is some great hero of the faith. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.  
  
Justin Perdue: This is also the pattern that Paul sets up for us for redemption.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: In the book of Romans.  
  
Jesus has a conversation with the Pharisees, and what did they appeal to? They claimed to be children of Abraham. And how does Jesus respond? He says he can turn rocks into children. What's important to note is that ultimately in Jesus' mind, in that moment, he is saying essentially that the promise made to Abraham is about himself because ultimately he is coming from Abraham.  
  
Justin Perdue: John 8\. Jesus is on the scene and he is telling the Jews that the Son, meaning himself, will set them free. They defend themselves by saying they are children of Abraham. Why is this man saying they will become free? Jesus even says to them, "I know that you are offspring of Abraham, yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you." Jesus means that they are the physical seed of Abraham. Then the Jewish audience goes on just a few verses later in John 8:39, "Abraham is our father." Jesus says, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did." Meaning if they were his spiritual seed. Jesus later says, "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." They were geeked up about Abraham but Abraham was excited about Jesus. Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus' day and he saw it. What is that? The gospel was preached beforehand to Abraham: a seed has come as a promise, Abraham believed the promises of God to be realized in the Messiah, and therefore he was saved.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Even the story of Abraham shows us how God, in the covenant of grace, works in spite of people. What does Abraham immediately do? He goes to the slave woman and essentially takes matters into his own hands. That's really what these religious leaders, the Pharisees, are contrasting themselves with. "We are not sons of the slave woman but sons of the free woman." Jesus says they have no idea what it means to be free. They are slaves to their own self-salvation and self-righteousness project. Jesus, again, can make anything children of Abraham.  
  
To circle back to what I said in the beginning, it is important to have this covenantal framework because we see, one, just how gracious God is that even in light of Abraham who looked forward imperfectly is still saved under that promise. Two, it prevents us from looking at Abraham as the Pharisees and religious leaders did, as this great pillar to look to. Jesus says Abraham is a mirror that ultimately points to him.  
  
Justin Perdue: What matters is not whether you are related to Abraham physically. What matters is whether you have Abraham's faith. That's the point. That's Galatians 3:7\. Those who have faith are the sons of Abraham. Then you also have Romans 4 where Paul says that Abraham was trusting in the One who justifies the ungodly. He is trusting in God who justifies ungodly people, which is a scandalous message that no other religion preaches.  
  
That is the pattern of Abraham that is going to carry over into the new covenant where the covenant of grace is established.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The story keeps moving. You have these unbelievable promises. You have a man and a woman in their nineties. They are barren and they have no children. The most unbelievable promise is that God is going to bless all the nations of the world, and they're going to have a nation that is larger than the sands of the sea. Abraham is hearing all this going, "You are going to do that through me?" It's a wonderful story of the mercy and grace of God who uses incapable, messed up people. Abraham was not a moral man. Let's just put it that way. He lied a lot.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's wild. God says, "Abraham, a nation is going to come from you and the purpose of that nation is that it will produce a seed that will bless the nations."  
  
Jon Moffitt: The purpose of Abraham's nation was to produce the seed and the Pharisees standing before Jesus totally didn't get that. They thought the blessings come through being a part of Abraham. But Jesus points out that the blessing comes from the seed of Abraham.  
  
Now you have the question what is God doing with this nation? They move into Egypt through Joseph, which births a beautiful statement from Joseph: "You meant this for evil. God meant this for good." Meaning that God is following His plan.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There was famine in the land and Jacob moves his family into Egypt, or Israel, as they become known. Jacob is renamed Israel and his family becomes known as the nation of Israel. The book of Exodus says they grow great in number, Egypt is threatened, and they become enslaved by Pharaoh. They become enslaved by the people of Egypt.  
  
What does God do? He raises up Moses who also is a shadow and a type. He’s a prophet. He is a mouthpiece of God. He goes and he mediates on behalf of his people.  
  
The book of Exodus is echoed all throughout Scripture.  
  
Justin Perdue: Absolutely. The greatest work of redemption before the cross, without question, is the Exodus.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: And as you read through the Old Testament, particularly in the Psalms, what do the song leaders and the writers of the Psalms constantly point back to? The Exodus. The Psalms are the contemporary Christian music of their day as we sing of the cross on Sunday mornings.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And the constant shadow of being in enslavement. What do they celebrate? The Passover. We continue to celebrate the shadow of it as well. It becomes part of their culture that they didn't even fully understand the blood being put over their doorposts.  
  
Justin Perdue: There's the blood of a lamb that God looks at and sees, so He passes over us and we are saved. Those who are not covered by that blood or are killed.  
  
Jon Moffitt: At that moment they wanted to get out of Egypt and they didn't want to die so they obeyed. But as the New Testament writers go back and explain that, they're using, this glorious shadow that was pointing to Jesus, and God passes over our sins because of the blood of Jesus. He is the one that takes away the sin of Abraham and Isaac up on the mountain. It's one of the glorious shadows that we look right past.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: As the Bible progresses, ultimately Moses leads God's people out of Egypt. As we know from the well-known Bible story parts, they walk through the Red Sea, which is later referenced in the New Testament as another type, another shadow. They pass through the Red Sea. The unbelievers, if you will, are drowned in the waters of judgment. Then what we see is Israel. After they get tired of wandering and not having bread, they want to return to slavery. They want to go back to Egypt. They wander throughout the desert.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What we don't realize is for 400 years, they don't have a Bible. They don't have a system like we do today. They have passed down verbally the promises given to their fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - the promise to be given a land, but they were not in there yet. They're supposed to be a great nation though they did become big in population. But these people have had 400 years of paganism. What do they do the moment Moses goes up on the mountain?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: They get to Mount Sinai, and this is where Moses goes to meet with the Lord. This is where we really begin to understand and see another step further in revealing this covenant of grace in the Mosaic covenant. Not to say that the mosaic covenant is the covenant of grace. That is not what we're saying.  
  
Let's break the Mosaic covenant down a little bit and explain.  
  
Justin Perdue: God, through Moses, gives the Law. This nation is being made and the people that He promised to Abraham is becoming a reality. Now God is going to make another covenant with them. He is going to tell them essentially how they are to live and He says if they live this way, then they will be blessed.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It is a theocratic nation, meaning God is at the head of the only nation He has ever led, which is Israel.  
  
Justin Perdue: So God gives the Law and He says, "If you do these things, then you will prosper. You will live long in the land. If you fail to do these things and you violate these laws, then you will be cursed. You will face judgment from me."  
  
We do not understand the Mosaic covenant to be the covenant of grace. If anything, we understand that the Mosaic covenant, in one sense, is almost a type of a covenant of works. It's conditioned. There are conditions to be met.  
  
What does the Mosaic covenant do in helping us better understand the covenant of grace? It makes God's requirements clear. This is what God requires for righteousness. It helps us understand that however we are going to be saved, there must come one. This seed needs to come and do all of this in order that we might be counted as righteous before the Lord.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: This is where you see the apostle Paul write extensively in places like Galatians and Romans about the Law. Moses is often seen as the representative of the Law. Paul writes that the Law came and what does it do? It reveals the trespass. The Law increases the trespass.  
  
An example is this: when you go to a hotel and there's a sign there that says don't splash in the pool, what is your first gut reaction? Most likely it is to splash in the pool. This is what we mean by the Law increasing the trespass.  
  
Justin Perdue: If that were not posted, you would splash in the pool and think it's not a big deal. But then when that's posted, there is a realization that you have broken something.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This again is a good example of how the New Testament will come and further explain. Originally, when God gave the Law to Moses, it was to govern them in the land so that they could have peace, protection, and blessing from God. There is a gracious provision in the Mosaic law, but it's not the covenant of grace. That gracious provision is this: God knew they would fail the Law, and because of that, He set up the sacrificial system by which their failure to the Law could be covered. But it was always a temporary covering. It's always moving us along farther and farther down. The sacrificial system becomes a shadow and a type of Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: We have violated God's Law, we are guilty, we stand condemned, and now atonement must be made. Blood must be shed. Whoever the sacrifice is must be perfect so that we then are clean. God is teaching His people even through those gracious provisions of the sacrificial system. He is giving them Law and then He is giving them a teaching on atonement and how they can be made clean. Like you said, it's advancing us down the field so we have a better understanding of how we are going to be redeemed.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: What's mind-boggling as we're marching through the Old Testament as quickly as we are, we have to realize that God teaches His people through the course of generations. Centuries. Great, great, great grandfathers are learning this and teaching it to their grandchildren, and they teach it to their children, and so forth. There is such an anticipation that God is building to the coming of His Son, the seed of Eve, and it will be established from this nation.  
  
Justin Perdue: If anybody is questioning how we're thinking about the covenant with Moses, the Law, and the sacrificial system, just pick up the book of Hebrews and read it. Pointedly Hebrews 3\. But through the entire book, the writer of Hebrews helps us make these connections to things.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the ways that the Law ends up being used is that how do we know we have the right seed? The Mosaic law becomes for us a fuller or another way of explaining the covenant of works because you have Adam failing the work that was given him, you have the initial purpose of the Law, which was to establish blessings and to govern people in the land, but then Jesus comes and he says the most amazing statement. They're all thinking that the King is here and he's going to get rid of the Law, but Jesus says he did not come to get rid of it but to fulfill it. When you hear Paul say that the first Adam failed but the second Adam succeed, that is what Jesus is saying. When Christ is up on the cross and says it is finished, that is what he is referencing.  
  
What's fun about the Old Testament is that you get a little bit more puzzle pieces. It's not all fully there. If a guy is casting a fishing pole and can't see where the line is going, that's what happened with the Law. The Law was thrown out and there is a connection that is going to happen when Christ shows up on the scene, but we don't have that yet.  
  
What we have to understand is there is the original revelation of what's going on, and there's always this line, this promise, that's coming. So let's back up and make the connections for that. We can keep moving on with this. You have the conditional promise given to Abraham, and it is having a fuller revelation.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It's being realized in the days of Moses, but even in the passing of Moses with Joshua, who was instructed to go into the Promised Land.  
  
Jon Moffitt: But all of these types and shadows that are established in the Mosaic are going to be pulled apart by the prophets.  
  
Justin Perdue: Just thinking types and shadows, that I don't think is insignificant with Moses and Joshua, Moses - who represents the Law - is not the one who will take the people into the Promised Land. But Yeshua is raised up to take the people into the land. Who will be the Savior? Yeshua. Jesus. You can't make this stuff up. God wrote it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And we're not trying to. I know sometimes there's a confusion with covenant theology and people say that we spiritualize the text. We're trying to be very careful to show you that we're not trying to make spiritual connections. We're going to the New Testament and helping you see how they interpreted this unfolding narrative.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We have Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. We see the story of Israel becoming a nation. We see Moses disobeying, he does not lead his people into the Promised Land, but Joshua rises up. That's where we begin to see the people of Israel begin to take over the Promised Land. We have the book of Judges where there becomes a cry for the people of Israel to have a leader. I don't think that those cries are insignificant because you have to think that in the minds of these people who have been taught for generations, they have been told that somebody is going to come unite them and quit this mess. The people of Israel are now in the Promised Land but what do they see? Neighboring nations are coming. They're creeping in. They're defiling them. There are some pretty bad things going on. The people began to cry out for that promised somebody who is going to come and get rid of all this mess.  
  
Justin Perdue: This brings us to beginning, especially in the book of 1 Samuel, where not only the prophet Samuel shows up on the scene, but there is a demand on the part of the people for a king.  
  
Jon Moffitt: A king like the other nations.  
  
Justin Perdue: Initially they demand a king of their own making in Saul but Saul is not the one that was chosen. Then Samuel finds the anointed one named David and God makes a covenant with him, which is where we are now.  
  
David's throne is established. He's a man after God's own heart. He is fallible, he makes tons of mistakes, but he is a type of the King who will come. He is a type of Jesus, but his rule, throne, and kingdom are established in God. Then in 2 Samuel 7, God makes a covenant with him. God says that somebody from David's line will sit on the throne and he is responsible to obey God's Law and sit on the throne eternally if he obeys. If he disobeys, he will be disciplined and chastised. The big thing with the Davidic covenant is it is conditional upon the King's obedience. It becomes quite clear now that the one who is coming is going to be a son of David. He's going to be a King and he will represent the nation before God. As the King goes, the nation goes.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I'm glad that you said that because this is really setting us up for the history books of the Old Testament: the Kings, Samuel, Chronicles, and even into the major and minor prophets. This is where the story really begins to collapse in on itself, but I don't mean it in the way you're thinking. Essentially it becomes this interwoven story told from different angles and through the mouths and minds of different prophets. As you said, Justin, as goes the heart of the king, so goes the heart of the nation. Where does that leave us in the Old Testament? Ultimately what we see is God punishes or rewards the nation based off the merits of the king.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Solomon thinks it's him at one moment. But then there's a clarification that says he has to perfectly obey the Law. You see the initial explanation of the Law in Moses, and now you're seeing a further explanation in all of this. You have to understand that every single one of these covenants is pushing us toward the covenant of grace. All of them are promising in the revealing.  
  
Now the people of Israel are not looking to try and obey. They are saying they need someone who will do it for them. But of course, in history it goes up and down, up and down, until they get to a moment where there is no king.  
  
Justin Perdue: After Solomon, because of Solomon's disobedience, the kingdom of Israel is split. There is the northern kingdom called Israel still, its capital is in Samaria, then there is the southern kingdom of Judah, and its capital is Jerusalem. There are now two kingdoms. None of the kings of Israel do right in the eyes of God. There are some good ones in the southern kingdom, maybe most notably Josiah, but what's incredible is that even upon the southern kingdom, there comes God's judgment.  
  
The northern kingdom is conquered by the Assyrians, but then the southern kingdom is conquered by the Babylonians and exile is the order of the day. It is incredible. Isaiah writes a lot of these things, so do Jeremiah and Ezekiel write about the southern kingdom, the exile, the oppression under Babylon, and all these things. You get words like this from Jeremiah. Everything looks lost, but what is it? There is a son of David who is coming and will represent the nation. What is it going to be? Listen to Jeremiah 23: 5-6: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The Lord is our righteousness.'"  
  
I have goosebumps sitting here talking about this. This son of David is coming. In the midst of exile, everything seems lost but he is coming.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The prophet Isaiah says that from Jesse, David's father, is coming one, and he brings and restoration in the land. You're having these prophecies and then at the end of it, he's describing what this King is going to bring. In verse 11, it says, "they shall not hurt or destroy," talking about the mountain. At the very end of it, he says this, "The King's resting place shall be glorious." All of this torment that the people of Israel are now feeling shows they don't live in a resting land. Canaan is definitely not glorious in any way, shape, or form.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: What you have is a groaning people who are in Babylon. We get Daniel right there to be Daniel. What does Daniel do? He interprets dreams to leaders. One of the fantastic dreams is the kingdoms of the earth that mock, spit, destroy, feed, and steal. This is where Psalm 1-2 comes into view where you have the blessed man who does not take counsel from the wicked, but walks in the way of the righteous. Then Psalm 2 - why do the nations rage? In a part of the dreams that Daniel interprets, what we see is that one is coming whose kingdom will destroy all other kingdoms, all other kingdoms will bow down to his, and he will bless the nations. Why do the nations rage? Who is this talking about? This is talking about what was promised to Eve, what was promised to Abraham, what we long for with Moses, who is promised in David, who is longed for throughout Joshua, Judges, the history of the Kings, and the prophets who looked forward and saw dimly. Ultimately what we get are all of these promises and we've got three pretty good concrete ellipsis of the Old Testament.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To help clarify some of our position, we believe that God fulfilled promises to Abraham, they are in the land, the nation is established, and the kings did come. You just see that every promise that God made, He never once failed.  
  
In certain stories in the Bible, you see the nation gets down to one person, and God preserves this. The promise of the seed continues to go down to it. On top of this covenant language, it is an amazing ride to see how much Israel tried to destroy, even interweaving themselves into other nations when God tells them they need to be pure. God continually preserves it. We can go to the very end, right before there is going to be 400 years of silence. You're not going to hear any more from the prophets. You're not hearing any more from God. The last thing that Malachi says before the angel shows up on the scene in Luke, he tells him to remember one thing: to remember the law of Moses. Why? Jesus even says the Law the prophets wrote of me. Malachi is saying don't forget this because this is where the Messiah is coming. But I would interpret that to say, "You have seen all of these promises of the grace that is to come. Don't forget this."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: as you travel to the end of the Old Testament, it's easy to be depressed because it is a mess. You thought slavery in Egypt was bad. What the Old Testament reveals is that physical slavery has nothing on spiritual slavery. That is where God's people are - their hearts are hearts of stone.  
  
Many of you probably know where I'm going. This is what Jeremiah, the weeping prophet, the one who weeps over the exile of God's people, ultimately promises that we hang onto so dearly. Jeremiah 31:31 says, "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like," we see contrasting language, "not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." That is a great ellipsis moment that probably very few people listen to. Poor Jeremiah.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Now we'll go and actually read Malachi 4, "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statues and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all of Israel. Behold, I will send you a Elijah." What does that actually mean? It's a reference to someone. Who is it? John the Baptist. "I will send you a lodge of the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a degree of utter destruction."  
  
Justin Perdue: But the hearts of the people will turn, and then we get 400 years of silence. Finally, an angel shows up on the scene and talks to this woman named Mary. He says this about the child that is going to be conceived in her by the Holy Spirit: "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."  
  
When that child is born and presented in the temple, there is a man named Simeon who sees him and says he can finally pass on because he has seen the salvation of the Lord.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's where we are and that's where we leave off.  
  
Justin Perdue: And that's where we'll pick up in the next one.

---

### MEMBERS: Fantasy Christianity (Transcript)

*Published: November 4, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-fantasy-christianity-transcript*
*Tags: Gospel, moving past the gospel, Pietism*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-fantasy-christianity/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. As always, we want to thank you for your partnership with us in ministry. We could not do any of the things that we do here at Theocast without you. This is a labor that Jon, Jimmy, and I feel is worthwhile. By being a member and supporting this ministry, you are locking arms with us in this mission of spreading the message of the sufficiency of Christ and the rest that is ours in him. It's a message that the world needs to desperately hear and frankly, it's a message that many in the church need to hear as well.  
  
We are grateful for you, our members, and we like hearing from you. Do continue to send in your emails, call us, leave us voicemails, and all those things. Let us know how Theocast has been encouraging you, let us know things you'd like to hear us give our take on—anything like that. We always like to hear from our members.  
  
In a very ambiguous way, Jon started to tee up some things for us to talk about here in the members' area. It was very cloaked. It was one of those situations where we let the listener understand, but I'm not sure that many people would know exactly what you mean. Why don't you be more specific? Pull the curtain back completely, brother, and tell our members what you want to talk about here.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to be careful and loving. I want to make sure people understand why I'm criticizing what I'm criticizing because it does play into our podcast today.  
  
One of the things that I've been very discouraged and disappointed in is that some people who have a bigger platform— and I guess I'm okay with saying names—but the whole thing that's going on with John MacArthur and his church, and even Doug Wilson and his community, it feels as if they are the Paul and Barnabas is of the New Testament who are standing up for the faith and for their churches and are receiving persecution because of the advancement of the gospel.  
  
My concern is that when you listen to what they're saying and their logic behind it, that's not necessarily what's going on. The focus has become more about interactions with the government and what the government is doing than it is about the actual mission of the church. It's almost like the responsibility of the church has become to keep the American government in check—and they are going to make sure that they do that. It has caused a lot of confusion: the message changes and becomes political in nature, the hope that we're being offered is not necessarily offered in the unity of Christ but in a governmental system.  
  
Doug Wilson's church did this recent protest out in front of a public building and people were arrested. They tried to turn it into a Christian persecution situation. I'm not sure this is what Christ is calling us to, and that this is how we should be acting.  
  
These are just my initial responses to some of this. The only reason that I'm bringing it up is that we can be told that real Christianity is standing up against the government for our rights. Actually, real Christianity is not that. You don't see Paul standing up for his rights when he's being thrown in prison. Paul wasn't thrown in prison because he was defying the government, he was thrown in prison because he was preaching the gospel, which is very different.  
  
Justin Perdue: Standing up to the government may be something that happens in the course of a church's life or in the course of a Christian's life, depending on particular sets of circumstances. I don't want to say it's a peripheral thing, but it is certainly not going to be a main emphasis of what real Christianity is like.  
  
To be frank here, the church has always been counterculture. We have been somewhat spoiled in America to think that somehow the church and mainstream culture get along. That just really has not been the experience of the saints for 2000 years.  
  
I don't want it to go off in a direction that we don't mean to go with this, but what Jon and I are advocating for today is that real Christianity, at its heart, and even the reason that we would ever contend to gather as a church, is because we understand that it's not like we're going to defy the powers of this world. It's not so much that. It has everything to do with the things that we were talking about earlier: that we have a certain and lasting and sure hope in Christ, that we are called to a fellowship of love with the saints in the church, and that we have an eternal mission. What we want to be about and be concerning ourselves with are those things. If a byproduct of that is that we need to stand up to the government in order to be able to meet, then okay. But let's not make defying the government the point. Let's make the church the point, and the fact that the ordinary means of grace is the point, and the need of the fellowship of the saints is the point, and our need for one another, to be in one another's lives, to lock arms together, to weep together, to rejoice together, and everything else—those are the point of what we're called to. Anything that we would do as an institution—church as an institution to stand up to the institution of the government—is only going to be motivated in a secondary way by what we understand the main primary concerns of the church to be.  
  
Like what you were saying, Jon, I think that's what's obscured in all this. It becomes this merit badge that says real Christians defy the government. No, real Christians, trust Christ, love each other, and prioritize the local church. If we need to fight for our right to gather in order to do that, then okay. But let's not confuse it with the main things.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In John, when Christ is being put on trial, he says his kingdom is not of this world because if it were, his people would be fighting against them already.  
  
When Paul was dealing with problems in the Corinthian church, within the culture, the Corinthians were having sex with prostitutes as a means of worshiping idols or false gods. It was seen as a form of worship. Paul tells the church not to do that. But you don't see him on a mission to shut down these brothels or these prostitute worship houses as the mission of the church because Paul understood what his mission was. It had nothing to do with trying to fix the culture, to fix the government, or to get Rome in line with the Christian mission.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's very clear that the mission of the church, at least in the mind of the apostle Paul—and I would argue in the minds of all the apostles—is not a mission of trying to transform the culture. It's not a mission of trying to change the world around them. It's not a mission of trying to change even things about the government. I understand that the Roman empire is a different context than the representative republic in which we live. I get that. We are all for citizens exercising their civic duty, voting, and being involved in politics and all those. But we would say that the mission of the church is not to be activistic politically, or even activistic as an institution in particular causes in the world. Don't paint some hypothetical what-if situation like "Shouldn't the church be involved in this?" That's not the point of what I'm saying right now.  
  
The mission of the church, narrowly defined, is the right proclamation of the word of God and the administration of the sacraments for the salvation of God's elect. The mission of the church and the emphasis of the church is the sure, lasting, and certain hope that we have in Christ. It is the fellowship of the saints, the bond of love that we have in Jesus, and how we need each other. Advancement of the cause of the gospel is the eternal mission that we are called to. That's what we want to concern ourselves with. That's what we want to always make primary. Then if there are any other peripheral things that our people are involved in, then that's great. We pray that God uses our people as individuals for all kinds of good things in the world, but the mission of the church needs to be properly defined and understood—and it's not one of transforming the world and the culture in the way that we often think.  
  
There are several directions we could go, Jon. One being theonomy, which I'm not going to talk about—I just opened a can of worms. Another one being a two kingdom view of the world where there's the common kingdom—that's all of the universe and all of the world—but then there's the redemptive kingdom that is particularly associated with Christ, his people, and the church.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Your view of eschatology plays into this as well. If you think that the Christians are bringing in the new heavens and the new earth, and it's just a gradual progression where it eventually flips over and we find ourselves there, that's one perspective that is going to play into this.  
  
The whole reason I bring this up is that I have seen this whole situation flying all over the internet. The thing that breaks my heart is that when the weak and weary Christian who barely can keep their head above water thinks that this is what real Christianity is about, they feel less than. I just want you to hear us say the Bible says that is not what real Christianity is about. That is not the mission of the Christian. The mission of the Christian is very simple: it's to go and receive hope, and to turn to, to love, and to care for your brothers and sisters in Christ through the fellowship of love of the saints, and by any means possible, to administrate the gospel to the lost. It's super simple because we live in such a complicated world. Anytime that someone wants to come in and add burden on top of it, saying we need to be kicking back against listen—that's just not the mission of a Christian. That it's just not there. That's not what you've been called to. I know it sounds like I am playing down or I'm over simplifying Christianity, but I don't think I am. I think it's pretty plain in Scripture. This is what we've been called to.  
  
Justin Perdue: There are all kinds of ways to have a Jesus-plus theology, where it's Jesus plus all these things that you need to be doing, and those things that we need to be doing change with the context. There are different emphases in different places. There will be things that our particular congregations may get involved in, but that is going to be a specific context-to-context thing, and we ought not to make things normative. It's unhelpful.  
  
If one church in one locale sues the local government because in their locale they are not allowed to gather, and they're just trying to exercise their rights in a land that allows this, and they're just trying to say they want to meet, then that's great. That doesn't mean that every faithful local church needs to now go and sue their government. A lot of times in this internet and social media age, certain things are held up to us as models of fidelity to Jesus. It may be a reasonable conclusion in that particular context or it might not be, but that does not become binding on all Christians in every place. What Christians need to concern themselves with are trusting Christ, loving the brothers and sisters, gathering together to experience the ordinary means of grace, and bearing one another's burdens and sorrows as we continue to make our way toward the new heavens and the new earth. That is enough for us to concern ourselves with. This is why the local church has elders where we have to make wisdom calls.  
  
I'm burdened for believers that look around and are constantly measuring themselves according to all these tests of fidelity to Christ. It's stuff that the Scripture does not place upon them; it's stuff that other believers place upon them, and it's a heavy yoke to bear.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just as an encouragement for those who are new to the membership, go to theocasts.org/members. That's your members page. There you can find a lot more resources that will tag along with what we've talked about today. An introduction to covenant theology as well as to Calvinism are there. Reformed spirituality as a class is there. We're also doing a book study on _The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom_ with Sam Renihan. At this point there will be two of those, and possibly three by now. There's just a lot of extra resources that are available.  
  
If you are using our podcast private feed where you can listen to everything we've produced on your phone and your podcast app, go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members and do that. Just to make sure you guys avail of everything that's available for you.  
  
Justin Perdue: Jon has handled all the housekeeping matters. Thank you for that brother. That just leaves it to me to thank you guys once again and tell you that we sincerely appreciate you and are just grateful for your partnership with Theocast.  
  
Continue to partner with us, continue to spread the word, and keep trusting Christ. We'll talk with you again next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/fantasy-christianity-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/fantasy-christianity/)

---

### Fantasy Christianity (Transcript)

*Published: November 4, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/fantasy-christianity-transcript*
*Tags: Gospel, moving past the gospel, Pietism*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/fantasy-christianity/)**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. If you listen to many people talk in the church, it seems that our Christian lives should be characterized by happiness, by excitement, and by always overcoming difficulty. But this life, if we're honest, is often characterized by pain, toil, and suffering. What exactly do we do with that? And what is it that we're called to in the church?  
  
Then in the members' podcast, Jon and I have a conversation about the mission of the church and what it looks like to keep the main things as the main things. We hope that this episode is helpful to you. We hope that it's liberating and encouraging to you. Stay tuned.  
  
We want to have a conversation today about real Christianity over and against what we might call fantasy Christianity. Fantasy football is something that I've never allowed myself to get into because I'm afraid that I would get hooked on it and it would be bad for my life, my marriage and my family—but that's another conversation for another day.  
  
Fantasy Christianity versus real Christianity. We live in a world that's fallen and it's a world characterized therefore by suffering, by toil, and often by hardship. It's not that there aren't pleasant things in life. It's not that there's nothing good. God and truth remain—all of that is true. There is a point to this life. But a lot of times, as human beings in a general way—and more specifically for the purposes of our podcast—people in the church have very unhelpful notions of what life should be like or what life will be like, and in particular, what the Christian life will be like.  
  
We've talked about things like triumphalism where everything is happy clappy. The trajectory of the Christian life is just always onward and upward. We've discussed those things before. Today we want to talk about a realistic approach to trusting Christ and living life in the church. We want to recalibrate expectations in ways that we think are biblical and in ways that we hope will set people free from a bondage that they maybe have placed themselves under because their lives don't look like they think they should look. We want to just have an honest discussion and a transparent discussion about suffering, toil, struggle, and pain, and what those look like in light of God and His faithfulness, as well as the promises that He has made to us in Christ. We also want to think about what we're called to as followers of Jesus in the church.  
  
Personally, I'm hopeful that this is a conversation that is comforting to people—that is liberating for people, that it doesn't depress people but will give them an honest, sincere, and realistic hope in Christ, and perhaps a better handle on the things that are most important and what we're called to in terms of our life together in the church.  
  
Why don't we start out maybe by just talking in a real and honest way about life in this world?  
  
Jon Moffitt: We've been told that in Christianity, the primary focus within the Christian life is our improvement—how we become better and better morally. We're told it is all about self-discipline and it is all about our relationship with God.  
  
We had a visitor at our men's Bible study last night. We were talking about how the very nature of communion—or common union—is communal meaning you come together as a unified community. We were having this conversation on how to have communion by yourself. It was the epitome of modern day Christianity where it was asking how I can do this by myself. How do I do this on my own? How do I become a self-made man? How do I become the self-made woman where I can look back and be proud of my accomplishments? Where most Christians look back and they're humiliated by what they haven't accomplished, what they haven't done, what they failed in, and the amount of sin that still remains in their life.  
  
If someone's honest with themselves, there's nothing to be proud of. You may not be a murderer, you may not be the worst parent in the world, but there's plenty to be ashamed of and be guilty of within any and all areas of your life. Then you go to church and you hear about how you need to be better and you're just not. You're not better.  
  
I had this thought the other night as I was lying in bed. I was thinking about politics, the presidential debate, and just what a circus that was. Then I started thinking about the world in general: the United States is not the only country that's fractured right now. The world is falling apart, but the world has been falling apart for how long now? It sounds like from the garden of Eden.  
  
Justin Perdue: Pretty much from the jump.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We have been told that everybody has these plans for utopia. Everybody has these ideas of how the world can be made better. Then you start wondering, "What are we doing anyways? What is life all about?" Because it doesn't matter what anybody does—they die, they suffer and there's pain. It doesn't seem like there's any solution that's being offered.  
  
Justin Perdue: There's a pretty good book that's been written on a lot of this stuff that we're discussing and it's called Ecclesiastes. I would highly recommend it to people where they could listen to Solomon, who was given wisdom that was superior to any man that had lived or lived since. God gave him a unique insight into the things of this world, God, and everything else. He writes a lot and says that there is a vanity to this life, and that there is a toil and a struggle that's associated with life under the sun. There are so many things that happen that are just bad. He writes in a way that we don't let ourselves talk in the church a lot of times. He acknowledges that there are things that are just wrong and hard, and that things should not be this way and yet they are this way. What do we do with that?  
  
A lot of times, people want to come in and put their hands over Solomon's mouth, so to speak, with respect to Ecclesiastes. It's like they are saying, "You shouldn't talk like that in the church. It shouldn't be this way." But Solomon is retorting, "But it is this way. So what do you got for me?"  
  
It does nobody any good to diminish the hardness of difficulty, pain, and suffering. We don't want to act like things are just easier than they are, and we don't want to wallow in self-pity, but at the same time, we need to acknowledge the difficulty of the hard. We live in a world where we bury our children, people suffer, cancer is a thing, financial hardship is a thing, and hunger is a thing, and sin runs rampant. Only a fool would look around and say that things are as they should be and all is well because it's not—it's not yet. As God's people in the church, we want to be able to call things as they really are.  
  
Citing Ecclesiastes 3:11: "God has written eternity into the hearts of man." We do all have a longing for utopia, and we have a longing for the epoch. The problem is we so often think that that's what life should be like now, and we expect it to be that now. If we just think the right way, if we are just disciplined in the right ways, if we just get our theology straight, if we just get our hearts right, and if we just get our minds right and all these things, then we can be delivered from suffering, weakness, pain, toil, and struggle.  
  
The response to that biblically is you have been redeemed by Jesus Christ if you're trusting him. At the same time, you have not been bodily resurrected yet unto this incorruptible existence that will be your reality forever. That has not happened yet.  
  
We want to be able to help people think about what they can expect in this life. At the same time, we want to make sure they don't fall off the other side of the horse into this nihilistic, everything-is-meaningless perspective, or this cynical jaded approach where everything is not right we may as well stick our heads in the sand because it's all going to hell in a handbasket.  
  
Jon Moffitt: My kids suffer from this. If they can't do something perfect, they don't want to do it at all. That's not how life works, because it's almost like if I can't have utopia now, or if this isn't the design that God has for me, then why care at all?  
  
In the Bible study I was in last night, there were some prayer requests that were offered and they were just painful. They're really, really hard. There were people suffering from cancer, and children that may not be viable at birth—there's a lot. Then you tell people that we need to have faith and trust in the Lord, that God will provide, and all things will work for good.  
  
Justin Perdue: Have contentment in all things...  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. People go home to their quiet homes, or to their messy homes where there are kids screaming, and all those platitudes mean nothing. They still have anxiety, they still are suffering, they're still hurting and upset and angry.  
  
Justin Perdue: The whole "God works all things together for good" in Romans 8:28 is something that people slap up on the refrigerator and then act like the problem of pain has been solved. We should not be that reductionistic. I know you and I agree on this: that promise of Romans 8:28—and all the promises of Romans 8:28—are eternal promises. They are true and they are real in terms of what God has done, is doing, and will do for us eternally speaking. At the same time, none of those promises mean that our lives will go well. It is a fool's errand for us to try to read through all the lines of God's providence to try to figure out exactly what He's doing because that's, that's not what they're for. For me to look at the difficulty and suffering and think, "Well, God's working all this for good so let me just mind through all this and try to find the good." I think you will exhaust yourself if you do it that way. But what you're clinging to is the eternal hope in the promises that God has made to you through Christ, and that at the end of the day it will all be well. People go back to their homes and they're still angry, they're still sad, and they're still anxious. What do we do with that?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Our men's group is going through _Truth We Can Touch_ by Tim Chester—which we'll probably do a podcast on that soon. He gives this illustration of someone saying, "Christ is sufficient for you," and the single mom who is going to go home to an empty house where she longs for human touch—to be held by a man who will love her, care for her, and be a father to her child. How is Christ enough for her at that moment? That's where reality sets in when. When a spouse dies and then they go to church and they hear Christ is enough—how? How is Christ enough? This is the fantasy side of Christianity where we just throw phrases around.  
  
This is what people do in funerals. They say that the most unhelpful—  
  
Justin Perdue: They mean well but they say things that are frankly stupid.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. They've been trained to say the most unbiblical things. This is why Paul says you weep with those people, you close your mouth and you cry with them, because that's the appropriate thing to do. One of the things that we want to always do is we want to solve the problem—but you can't solve the problem. It's unsolvable. You can't fix it. That's where Christianity thinks we have the answer for everything and there's no mystery involved. I am speaking from a lot of hurt and because I'm so tired of seeing Christians suffer needlessly when they can have hope, but that hope is being offered in a way that is so unbiblical that it actually squashes the real hope.  
  
Justin Perdue: The promises of God to us in Jesus do not take pain away. In the moment, it doesn't take grief away. It does give us a framework and a filter to kind of push that pain through, but for us to think that saying Christ is enough is going to make somebody feel better about the death of a loved one, or a cancer diagnosis, or whatever it may be, is foolish—and we're going to get to why those promises matter and what they really are intended to do for us as Christians in just a minute.  
  
But even along these same lines, if you think about James 1 where James tells us to consider it joy when we encounter trials of various kinds because of what God is doing in us, He is working in us to produce really good things, and people will often cite that and say, "You're going through some terrible stuff, but you need to consider it joy because you're encountering trials and God's going to do good through this." To that I want to say that yes, that's true, but James' theology in James 1 is a statement about the greatness of God to be able to work through pain and suffering to produce good. It is not a statement about the goodness of the trial and suffering. Trials and suffering, by definition, are bad. The miracle is that God actually uses pain, suffering, and other bad things to produce good in His people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Steadfastness is what he says.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly: steadfastness. What is that? It's a continued hoping and trusting in Christ and the promises of God through him—and we could have a great conversation about that sometime. But it's not as though we should invite suffering upon ourselves, that we should look for trial, that we should pray for it so that we might be sanctified. These things that God uses in our lives are things that we would never sign up for. Again, it's a statement about His faithfulness and goodness to us, not about the fact that trials are good or that suffering is good or that death is good. None of those things are good. We need to stop talking in reductionistic foolish ways like that in the church. It sounds really spiritual but if you think about it for like five seconds, it becomes quite clear that this is crazy talk. You're telling me that my cancer is a blessing, or the death of my loved one is a blessing from the Lord. No, it's not. It's terrible. And yes, I continue to trust the Lord. I don't want to get too far mired in the weeds.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No, you're good. Fantasy Christianity: everything that's been offered to you is not real; it never can be and never will be, and you most likely are feeling it. If you're listening to this podcast and you know that what you've been offered from Christianity was never delivered... It's like that goal post that keeps getting moved. The moment you think you're going to achieve it, they just move it again.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's like what we said a few weeks ago on how it's like Linus, Lucy, and the football. Every time you come up to kick the ball, it's just removed from you and you're on your back.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Real Christianity, or Christianity that comes from Scripture, we would argue, comes from a Reformed perspective—Reformed meaning that the way in which the Bible has historically been understood and applied comes from this tradition that was regained during the Reformation. We hold to a covenantal Reformed perspective, from a Reformed Baptist 1689 perspective, and so a lot of what we're about to say comes from our understanding of Scripture.  
  
I will tell you that real Christianity is more than this, but if we're going to make it simple for our conversation today, I would say that the purpose of the Christian life going forward and what is offered to you, first of all, is a real and sure hope.  
  
Justin Perdue: A sure and lasting hope.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Everything that the Christian life is drawing you towards is not assurance in yourself, not assurity in yourself, not the assurance in your moral improvement, or your performance improvement where you're performing better than you were before. Christianity is driving you towards a hope that is outside of yourself and a hope that is not in your faith—you're not having faith in your faith, but you're putting faith in the object of your faith, which is Christ. The entire Christian structure, real Christianity, is about the day in and day out structure that is pushing you towards the hope that is outside of your current circumstances.  
  
I don't see anywhere in Scripture where you are told to put your hope in your current circumstances. These circumstances cannot bring hope because we live in an "already, but not yet" situation, meaning that I'm already a child of God but I'm not yet living with Him. I'm already considered pure and holy but I am not living in that reality because I don't have the new body that Christ has promised me yet.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. God tells me all the time that he is faithful and that He loves me, and yet my life is just racked with pain and suffering. How do I reconcile those things?  
  
Jon Moffitt: If He truly loved me, why wouldn't He prevent this from happening? Why would He prevent my child from dying, or from getting cancer, or from this and this and this?  
  
We live in that constant tension. We have to understand a biblical worldview that's real Christianity. The real Christianity is that God has a purpose and a will that He is accomplishing—and we don't fully understand that. That's the mystery of Christianity. We don't fully understand how God is accomplishing what He is doing because I don't understand all of the pain and suffering that goes on in this world, but it's not needless.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's entirely right. This sure and lasting hope—that we have is found in Jesus Christ and in him alone—is outside of us and stands unchanged regardless of how we're doing or how we're feeling or what we're thinking. Jesus Christ will carry the day, he has saved us, is saving us, and will save us, and we trust and rest in him. The deliverance is coming but it's not here yet.  
  
Even to think about Paul's language that is quoted often, that he has learned contentment in all things: the only way that you learn contentment in all things is to realize that there is something more ultimate that's coming. Or when Paul will say that these light and momentary afflictions are not worth comparing to the glory that awaits us—that again is a statement about the greatness of the glory that is ours in Christ. That will be our experience one day. It's not a statement about the fact that the trials are actually small; many of them are huge. We are orienting ourselves and clinging to this steadfast, lasting, and certain hope that we have in Christ. At the end of the day, a lot of times that's all we have the cling to because everything around us is giving way. We sing, "When all around my soul gives away, he then has all my hope and stay." That's essentially our experience, but a lot of times we're in the midst of stuff that are really, really hard.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To add what you're saying, when I say real Christianity is about a sure hope, what people assume I'm saying is that we need to just focus in on the gospel. They think that if we just focus in on the gospel, we'll have that sure hope. Actually, I'm not saying that. What I'm trying to say is that your sure hope, as it's handed to you, comes from outside of yourself and the way that it's sustained in you comes from outside of yourself. It has nothing to do with your individual effort.  
  
Justin Perdue: A lot of times, even when we talk about this sure and lasting hope, we're clinging to Christ, even in those moments, my mind and my heart are all over the place. I don't feel it, I'm not in a good place mentally or emotionally or even spiritually sometimes, and I'm just acknowledging the fact that I'm a wreck and that things aren't going well in my life. I'm feeling all kinds of ways about that. When we say that the sure and lasting hope is found in Christ and the gospel, that does not mean that it will produce a feeling of contentment within you all the time. It doesn't mean that it will produce a feeling of peace in your soul all the time. What we mean is that even when you are not content, and even when you are anxious as the day is long, Christ has you and he is not going to let you go. It's not like the gospel is this consolation that is going to make you feel differently every time you think upon the Lord Jesus.  
  
I'm going to offer a quote from CS Lewis that I think is really good, and that also speaks to some of what we're getting at. He says, "Talk to me about the truth of religion and I'll listen gladly. Talk to me about the duty of religion and I'll listen submissively. But don't come talking to me about the consolations of religion or I shall suspect that you don't understand." For anybody that's interested, that is taken from his book called _A Grief Observed_ that he wrote after his wife died. He wrote it under a pseudonym because he was so concerned that those who had been influenced and impacted by his writings would be devastated to see his wrestlings with life and suffering and pain. But then later on, it was published under his name. It's a good read for people that are able to really look into the heart and mind of a man they respect and trust, and then see him all over the place mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. But even a man like CS Lewis, who many of us have profited from, was not immune to the things that we're talking about because this is every Christian's experience.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the conversations that Justin and I had this morning was about sports and TV shows. Justin made this observation about how a lot of sports movies depict the kind of the 1% reality, and even its fantasize of what football is. (Justin grew up playing college football.) What you see on TV and in movies show you the high points, and everybody assumes that's what playing football is like—and it's not. If anybody's ever played sports, you understand that the majority of it is the grind day in and day out, and working and practicing. It's all the mundane things that are not fun. They're not enjoyable. They're actually just pure pain and work.  
  
When we talk about a sure hope, the fantasy Christianity is that you show up on Sunday morning and there's this hoopla: it's all hype, it's big, and it's glorious. You hear people say they want Monday through Saturday to feel like Sunday at 10:00 AM. They assume that somehow, if they can get there by listening to Christian music and reading Christian books, that they can live on that spiritual high. They assume then that if they live in that spiritual high, the rest of their life is going to fall in line with it. That's actually what they're told on Sunday mornings as well. That's not the sheer hope we're talking about.  
  
Justin Perdue: I could riff on the whole football thing. When you're practicing, you're wearing helmets that don't have decals on them. Your practice gear is very plain looking, it's not shiny, it's not Spat It Up, and you're not wearing armbands. It's not this ra-ra excitement all the time. A lot of times, the last thing in the world you want to do is go to practice. The game is not the Hollywood dramatic reality as it is depicted; if anything more violent, but it's more of a grind.  
  
I had a great conversation with a brother in our church yesterday about his job. He has recently taken a job that he likes and that he wanted. He said he was glad to have gotten the job and is thankful for it, but he's really glad when Friday comes and he has the weekend off because he's tired by the time Friday rolls around. We talked about how this modern notion that you should love your job so much that you'll never work a day in your life, and how that's the goal and that's the ideal. It's utter nonsense because the reality for humans for thousands of years has been that they are toiling in their jobs. Last time I checked, the curse in Genesis 3 is still a thing. There's going to be toil in our labor, and until Christ returns, that will be true. There's going to be futility in a lot of the things that we do in life under the sun. Until Christ returns, that will be true.  
  
We are foolish if we think—with respect to our jobs or any arena of life—that we're always going to be like springing out of bed every day because we're just so excited to go live this day. You're going to have some stuff that's good, you're going to have some days that are pleasant, and you're going to have things to look forward to—and thank God for that. At the same time, for many weeks of your life, you're going to look at your day planner and think, "I do not want to do a single thing that's on there." That's just the reality that we all are faced with, and I think we would be much helped by a perspective of being created for the epic but the epic is not here yet. We were created for a perfect existence, but it's not here yet. God and truth remain, and so there will be good things—praise be to His name. I want to receive those with gratitude. At the same time, I expect there to be toil and hardship, but I am going to aim to trust God through it and realize that I'm going to feel different ways at different times about it.  
  
I also realize that I'm going to be in need of my brothers and sisters in the church to come alongside me, to help me bear these burdens, to point me to Christ—that sure and lasting hope that's mine and that's ours. But I'm also going to need people to weep with me. I'm going to need people to lock arms with me as we make our way along in this pilgrimage to the Celestial City that will be epic, perfect, blissful, and awesome. But we're not there yet.  
  
You've already mentioned the sure and lasting hope that we're called to. We're also called to a fellowship of love in the church.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When you think about life looking like this, what does Christianity look like within the painful, confusing, sin-struggling world? One of the hopes that we are given is the fellowship of the we'll have with our Father and in the physical presence of Christ, but also the fellowship of the saints. The one part of eternity we can actually have a glimpse of now is this fellowship. We can't get rid of pain, we can't get rid of sorrow, we can't get rid of death, and we can't get rid of sin. The one promise that we do have now, the most important part of it is this fellowship of believers.  
  
The reason I picked the fellowship of love as the way of describing is because there are a lot of things that we fellowship over: football, entertainment, movies. People gather together. Fellowship is not an exclusively Christian word; it means people gathering together over something. When Christians talk about it, we specifically mean the fellowship that is centered around love. Paul says in Ephesians 4 that when the body functions properly—and in that functioning, there's the gifting of spiritual gifts, ministry, and fellowship—the body builds itself up in love. What does Paul get at in the Corinthian church? He gets so upset with them because they're doing all these spiritual acts, but they're not doing them with love, which is the point of it. Even in James 2, he talks about the love that you should have for the brothers. Also in 1 John.  
  
So when we talk about the purpose and the goal of real Christianity, your goal, your mission, and your primary objective as a believer is the fellowship of believers for the sake of love and unity. We aren't told that. We're told the primary mission of the Christian is improvement—how to make myself better.  
  
Justin Perdue: One brief observation is this: you mentioned earlier how we tend to live our entire Christian lives seeking after that high that we experience on Sunday mornings. I agree with that statement completely. At the same time, I do think there are experiences that we have in corporate worship that are sometimes really great. It's a foretaste of the deliverance that's coming. But I wonder how many evangelicals have ever stopped to think that maybe the reason that you felt that way for that moment, and you got that glimpse into what eternity is going to be like, is because you were with the saints. You were assembled with the saints under the word, coming to the table. Using the means at our disposal to fellowship with one another in Christ Jesus—that's when you think this is real. Those moments often don't happen when you're alone; they typically happen when you're gathered.  
  
But I completely agree with you in terms of what we're called to, being to love one another in the church. You've mentioned John 13 and the words of Christ. You've mentioned 1 John—that epistle is replete with language about loving each other. James is calling us to love one another. Paul, in many places, exalts love. You already mentioned Ephesians 4\. 1 Corinthians 13 is a famous passage where love is this great thing that we are called to in the church and how we live together. Even when we think about Christian liberty, what is it that governs our exercise of our freedom? It's our love for one another. We could just go on and on about how love is the banner and in particular, loving one another is the banner that flies over the church. We are called to a community and a fellowship of love. We need it desperately and it is a worthwhile endeavor.  
  
You may be in a place where you're thinking that life is hard and you're wondering what it is we have that can help you. We've already talked about trusting Christ; you have a sure and lasting hope that stands outside of you, unchanged, and Christ has you. Also, be involved in a local church and give your life to the pursuit and the end of loving your brothers and sisters, and to being loved by them, because it is absolutely essential in the Christian life. It is something that is of great value to give your life to and to prioritize. We are not saying that everything is pointless; no, it's not. Christ is real, God and truth remain, and love your brothers and sisters in the church, and you will live your life if you make these things your goal. You're going to need your brothers and sisters and they need you in a life that is wrought with trial.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There's the promise of joy; let's do this promise from Christ. I preached this earlier last year and it is still rocked in my world. John 15, which is an unbelievable passage about abiding in Christ. This is the only time Jesus makes this promise. Jesus says in John 15:11, "These things I have spoken to you, then my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full." Can you get more joy than Christ has? You can't. It doesn't exist in the universe. Jesus has ultimate joy. He says, "My joy can be in you and it can be complete because I've told you these things." This is what he says next: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." He is making this equation of resting and abiding in Christ, and the way in which that you find joy is by taking this rest in Christ and loving one another, and you will have the joy that Jesus has. Because the next thing he says is, "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." Real Christianity is not your improvement or impressing God. Real Christianity is you resting in the sure hope, hearing it preached to you, receiving it in the word by the means of grace that are given it to you week in and week out, and then taking that sure hope and using it as your motivation to love sinful, broken, hurting people. You find your satisfaction and joy in actually loving your brothers and your sisters through fellowship.  
  
Justin Perdue: We've talked about a fellowship of love in the church and finally, what is the Christian life about? What is it that we're called to? We're called to an eternal mission. All of these things are linked together; even the fact that the mission is eternal is inextricably linked to the fact that hope is eternal, and that we're promised rest and peace forever in Christ.  
  
You already mentioned John 15\. I'm mindful of the words of Christ in John 16 where he says, "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you'll have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world." Does he mean that we're going to overcome the world in this life? Of course, not. He says you're going to have tribulation in the world but he has overcome it, meaning that he has done everything necessary to deliver you from this—and that's coming. What you have been called to is something that is eternal that is, in some ways, beyond your comprehension. It will go well for you ultimately.  
  
One thing I say a lot at CBC is that we live from the end of the story backwards. We are always looking to the end and in God's kindness and in Scripture, in God's revelation in the Bible, He has told us how this ends. He has given us a glimpse into the future and what forever will look like. We cling to that as well. This is sincerely not all there is. This is not what our existence will be like forever. We will not be battling sin forever. We will not be battling with the fallenness of the world forever. Right now, the creation is groaning, and so are we, but we will be finally delivered. Christ will return and he will make his blessings flow far as the curse is found, as we sing in _Joy to the World_.  
  
That eternality of the promise and the fact that a future and final deliverance is coming motivate and sustain us on our mission right now in this world, in this life under the sun.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In conclusion, the Bible is not silent on the way in which you should deliver your life. It's just very different from the way you've been told. You've been told that it's about moral improvement and pietism, and we're arguing that those lead to despair and hopelessness.  
  
The alternative is that Christ is calling you into communion with him, with his people, with a mission and a purpose that actually matters and will matter for all of eternity—and I think that's where we should put our focus in.  
  
Justin Perdue: Final comment from me before we head into the members' area. You just mentioned pietism and moral improvement being emphasized all the time. For a lot of people where there is a hyper-focus on their discipline, morality, feelings, affections, and everything—those people would rightly lambast the prosperity gospel, which is the belief that if we obey and do certain things in order, our lives would go well now, that we would be blessed, and that we would prosper in this life. That theology is bad.  
  
Pietism, or this hyper-focus on our feelings and our disciplines, this hyper-focus on our moral improvement, is a kind of prosperity gospel lite. It's a kind of easy listening prosperity gospel, in a way. Just like the prosperity gospel, pietism and an emphasis on moral improvement is earthbound. It's almost anemic in its earthbound character in nature. If you are thinking that the primary purpose of the Christian life is anything that happens right now in terms of you and your life becoming better, according to the apostle Paul, these are the ones whom above all people are to be pitied. It's evident a number of ways that in the church in America, in the 20th century, so much of our theology is wrapped up in what happens in this life—and it ought not be that way. We are trusting in Christ now for the final deliverance that he will accomplish, and it's as good as done. We have peace, we have hope, and we can have joy in the midst of suffering because we know the end. If you remove that eternal reality from this equation, there is no way to have any kind of hope or peace or joy in the midst of life in this world. Because depression is reasonable in this world, and divorced from Christ and the promises of the new heavens and the new earth and the safety that we have in Jesus, depression and suicide would be the only reasonable conclusion. I'm not trying to be morbid, but I just thought that if your emphasis and focus in the Christian life is anything that's happening in this world, then we are to be pitied. Thank God that we have an eternal hope in Jesus. We need to all remind ourselves every Lord's Day that that's what we're longing for and we're living for. We're loving each other for that reason.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That perspective is not going to be popular with the world and with modern Christianity. It's absolutely not going to be popular, which leads us into our membership.  
  
Justin Perdue: And I think we've been clear enough to say that it doesn't mean you should just stick your head in the sand and wait for Jesus to come back.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No, there's so much to do.  
  
Justin Perdue: You do good because you know that the end is secure.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There's much to do.  
  
This is going to lead us into some current topics that have been flying around that I know Justin and I are very passionate about. There's been some recent news about different churches and pastors saying different things about culture and the protection. There have even been some movements of people who are standing in front of courthouses. There seems to be a lot of energy being put into our freedom as Christians. There's just a lot of debate going on, and I am so disappointed in seeing fracturing anger. We're fighting the government as if the government is a Christian entity. There's so much energy being put into this to where in the end, what are we trying to accomplish? Are we actually furthering the eternal mission of Christ or are we hindering it? I know there's a lot of mystery in what I'm saying. I'm going to unpack that a little more in the members' podcast.  
  
Justin Perdue: Let the listener understand.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Take us in, brother.  
  
Justin Perdue: Thank you for listening, as always, to this episode of Theocast. We don't take for granted that anybody would ever want to listen to anything we have to say, or let alone be helped by it. If you have been encouraged and helped by this podcast, the Lord gets the credit for that. We are simply instruments of His, and we are debtors to grace and mercy, just like you. We, alongside you, thank God for Jesus Christ and trust in him for our sufficiency, for our righteousness, and for the atonement of our sins. We want to encourage you to continue to rest and trust in Jesus. He is mighty and able to save you.  
  
We thank you for the various ways that you are engaging with the content here at Theocast. We are about to head over into our members' podcast. If you don't know anything about the members' podcast but you would like to know something about it, you can go over to our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and you can find out more about our membership and what all that entails; the content that the membership gives you access to. You can learn about various ways to partner with this ministry to help us spread the word of the sufficiency of Christ and the rest that is ours in him.  
  
We will talk with you again in the regular edition to the podcast next week.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-fantasy-christianity-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-fantasy-christianity/)

---

### HOT TOPIC: Is There Only One Way a Christians Can Vote? (Transcript)

*Published: November 2, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/hot-topic-is-there-only-one-way-a-christians-can-vote-transcript*
*Tags: Politics, Politics and the church, Voting*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/hot-topic-is-there-only-one-way-a-christians-can-vote/)** 
**[Read Related Article by Justin Perdue](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-there-only-one-way-a-christian-can-vote/)** 

Jon Moffitt: Welcome to Theocast. Today, we are coming in hot. We have only done this one other time; we do it when we feel necessary. We're coming in with a hot topic today and it might be the hottest topic we've had since we started Theocast.

Justin Perdue: We're going to talk politics today. Yes, we said it. We're going to talk politics today.

We're going to try to not be punchy and snarky about this. In all sincerity, this is a tumultuous season in the life of the United States. There is a lot of division that exists in our land and our society broadly. I've observed quite a bit of division in the church as it pertains to the upcoming general election next Tuesday. There's a lot of passion. There's sincere disagreement, but then there's also a lot of vinegar and vitriol that's permeating this entire conversation.

I've written a little piece on this with some of my own thoughts on politics and voting and all those things. We, in a spur of the moment, decided to record this episode. We hope that this is helpful.

Some of this has been prompted by things that pastors and evangelical leaders have said with respect to the vote next Tuesday—how Christians should vote, or in some cases, how Christians must vote, if they are going to be faithful to Jesus, and if they are going to remain orthodox. We want to kick this around and have this conversation with some of that in view as the backdrop.

Jon Moffitt: We've received a lot of questions through email and social media asking us to respond to different statements that have been made. To be honest with you, the only reason we haven't done this yet is a matter of time, just issues of trying to figure out when we would do that. So we decided to do that this morning.

Justin Perdue: It's not that I feel anxious about it necessarily, but I realize that there are going to be some people—and I don't necessarily mean this for our listeners—who will come across this, depending on how much it's shared and recommended, and they're going to hear us and on the one side are going to think that we have not said nearly enough. Then there are going to be others that think we have said far too much. I trust that there are going to be plenty of people who disagree with us and that's okay. We are aiming to hold the line biblically and we are aiming to continue, as we do in all things, to try to point Christians to Jesus and to the unity and rest that we have in him. We're aiming to keep the main things the main things. I know that you and I do that as pastors in our own congregations, and we're effectively doing that behind the mic today.

Before we get into the specific comments about all of these matters, I want to make a couple of disclaimers. I don't want people to assume wrongly about anything that we're going to say. It's not that the things that we're going to say are not being said because Jon or I think it doesn't matter how we vote. That's not what we think at all. I think it's important that we all, as citizens of the United States, would steward our civic duty. How we vote has consequences on our land and on our society. Let's just go ahead and say that. I think you agree with that and I agree with that.

The next thing that I'm going to say—and again, Jon, you can agree or disagree—is I am not, in any of the comments that I'm making, aiming to communicate that I think that any kind of vote for any kind of candidate are all just morally equivalent. That to vote this way or vote that way is morally equivalent in my own mind as a man, as a Christian, and as a citizen. I don't think that. People that know me well will know that I have strong opinions about a lot of stuff, and that would include politics. I have a number of reasons for why I think what I do politically. With that being said—that I have strong opinions—I take great pains as a pastor to not share and make public my own personal opinions about politics. This is because I think that I, as a leader, would quickly abuse the authority that God has given me and effectively tell my congregation how they should vote, if not explicitly then implicitly. If I made my own views known, they could hear me say these things and think they should follow their pastor and vote the way that I do. I would never want that to happen because that would be an overreach and an abuse of my pastoral authority.

Just wanted to share those things from the get-go. It matters how we vote and it's not that Jon and I think that there's moral equivalency between votes. But we are going to contend for what we think is central and most important when it comes to election season, or any time, and that's the unity that we have in Christ in the church.

Jon Moffitt: Absolutely. Even in Hebrews, the writer of Hebrews tells the congregation to imitate your elders and your leaders, but imitate them in their faith. In the last few months in my congregation , because of the texts that we've been covering, I have made some political statements. But it had everything to do with how they should pray and care for their relationship to the government, as well as what the believers' relationship to the government is. That is the one thing Scripture is very clear on as far as Romans 13: the way in which we are to submit and live peaceably with those who govern us, the purpose of the government, and how the government is controlled by God and not by men.

You might be able to see some kind of an obscure passage, which I haven't been able to see, where you could argue that we, as shepherds, should be dictating how someone should cast their vote in a non-church function, which is a governmental function. But I just don't see it in Scripture. Today's conversation is really around your role as a believer as it relates to your role. in two different kingdoms: you have the kingdom of Christ, and then you have your earthly kingdom. However, what's going on right now is we're mixing the two. Not only are we mixing the two kingdoms, we're mixing Law and the gospel as well.

When someone makes the statement or the claim that if you vote for any other candidate than one particular candidate, then you are not upholding the Christian faith, that is so far from biblical text. It's rightly disturbing, to be honest with you, because you are now making the Christian standard. In other words, what they are saying is if you don't hold a certain political position, you are no longer being faithful to follow Christ as a true disciple. That is a very strong statement to make that you better be able to back it up from Scripture.

Justin Perdue: My biggest concern is that in the minds of many people—and by this I mean Christians as we are speaking to the church here in broad terms—it seems that one's standing in the Lord Jesus should be called into question depending upon how they vote on November 3\. This can flow both directions. In the church, some are aware of the comments that have been made and it's tending to flow predominantly in one direction, but it could flow in both.

I want to be really clear that there are Christians who are going to hold very strong convictions and those convictions are going to be based upon things they see in Scripture. This is where I'm coming from: I think that as Christians, we should pursue justice. That's not optional. We should pursue justice. But here's the issue: we may very well have sincere disagreements at the level of execution, at the level of practicality, and at the level of public policy as to how we should best pursue justice in the society. Both directions politically, you can have people that take issue with anything from abortion to issues of social justice, then look at the other side and say, "If you are a Christian and you care about these things that the Bible clearly articulates: the sanctity of human life, the fact that we should care for the oppressed, the needy, and the marginalized, but if you don't vote in this way or that way, then how can you claim Christ?" That's the rhetoric that exists right now even in the public square of the church, and on Christian social media. It's very concerning, and the reason for that is that I do not know of a church or a confession of faith, historically, that would make voting choice a test of Christian orthodoxy. I'm trying to be precise: a church or a confession that historically would elevate voting choice to being a test of Christian orthodoxy or fidelity to Jesus.

When you hear people say that if you're a Christian, you have to vote this way, and if you don't vote this way, then your standing in the Lord Jesus and the legitimacy of your faith and your profession should be called into question. What they are saying is that if you cast a particular kind of vote on November 3rd, you are in clear demonstrable unrepentant sin, and you should face church discipline. That's what's being effectively said. I do not know of a church or a confession in the history of Christianity that would have ever elevated voting choice to that level.

The reason I use the language of "voting choice" is because that is a prudence wisdom decision. It's a wisdom call in terms of how to best execute justice in the land. That's what we do when we vote. Underneath that vote are a number of convictions, and convictions are what matter biblically. We may disagree at the level of wisdom in terms of how to implement or execute something, but where we can't disagree as Christians is at the level of conviction.

What I mean here is convictions are the issue. For example, to believe that abortion is good is sin, to believe that that homosexuality is good is sin, to disbelieve that God has made us male and female on purpose is sin, to believe that racism is good is sin, to believe that we should not worry about the poor or the needy or the oppressed is sin—that's where Christians must agree.

I want to be very clear. If somebody were actively and publicly advocating for anything that I just said, that would be a matter of church discipline in the church I pastor. But that conviction level is different from a voting decision. We have now moved in the voting decision piece. We have now moved from the area of conviction to wisdom, and that

Jon Moffitt: It does. The application of wisdom is a conscious issue because there are differing opinions on how to handle some of these issues. This is where we have to say that perspective, knowledge, history, background, how people receive information, process information—if someone says they believe these things are wrong, but they'll make decisions based upon what they think this is the best choice they can make given the information that's been handed to them.... For instance, some people are really against homosexuality or other types of sin that goes on. There are companies that promote these types of sin: Disney, Apple, etc.

Let's be frank: living in the United States, you are required to pay taxes and your tax money is being used to murder people. That's as plain as I can put that. So if you're going to stop shopping at certain places, and you're going to stop using certain products, which is totally up to you, that is a conscious issue that is up to you. But then the moment you say that if you watch a Disney show, or you own an Apple product, or you go to this or that store then you are not a Christian, that's a problem. That's a problem because you are now adding to Scripture where Scripture has not placed those demands and laws upon Christians. We have to be careful of taking conscious issues and making them Law. Paul speaks to this in Colossians that you, one, don't let anybody do it, and two, don't do it.

Justin Perdue: If I was going to try to boil some of this down into where I would stand as a pastor and as a Christian in thinking through these matters, because voting choice is a matter of wisdom, I might think that a brother or sister in Christ is unwise in how he or she votes but he or she is still my brother and sister. It is quite possible for Christians to have shared convictions, not only about Jesus, but even about some of those other things that I described: to have shared convictions about abortion, sexuality, gender, racism, and other issues of justice and caring for the needy, the poor, and the oppressed. We can have shared convictions about those things but disagree at the level of public policy, wisdom, and implementation. If we don't maintain that, and we're not that precise and clear, then we begin to elevate a wisdom call to the level of being a primary issue of doctrine and theology. We have effectively said that how you vote is now functionally as important as what you make of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, and how you vote is as important as to whether or not you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity.

If we're saying that a vote is enough evidence to excommunicate somebody, that is massive in its scope and its implications. We need to be careful in how we talk about this, and we need to look through history and determine if anybody has ever talked like this.

Jon Moffitt: Unfortunately, when Justin and I say anything—this is just part of the nature of the culture we live in—people cannot hear Justin and I say it. They hear a pastor say it because that's the career path that we find ourselves in. Just like when our current president, Mr. Donald Trump, says something, it's always as Mr. President because that's the office that he holds, he can never say something as Donald. It's always mr. President. So pastors need to be careful in how and what they communicate, so that people don't confuse what Scripture says.

As a pastor, I'm a keeper of the gospel. As an elder of a flock, these people are to submit to me underneath one authority, and that's God's authority, not governmental authority. When Paul wrote to the Romans, or the church at Rome, this was not a Republican state that was governed by a morally ethical leader who was trying to keep purity and sanity for all. If you know anything about Rome during the time that Romans was written, Nero was not a morally sound good man. The things that he did to Christians were just obscene and disgusting. I don't even want to mention some of them on the podcast in case children are listening. Yet this is what Paul says to them. There wasn't an overthrow of government, it wasn't a fight for liberty, it wasn't freedom or else we die.

There's no such thing as Christians who are trying to transform a particular government so that God will be pleased and advance His Kingdom. God advances His kingdom through the church, not through the government. God has never advanced His kingdom through a governmental system; He has always advanced it through the church.

Let me just read Romans 13 to you real quick. It says, "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities." Do you understand what that would sound like to the Roman church? To understand what their government was doing to their brothers and sisters, it was very hard for them to read this. But this is what Paul says. He clarifies why they should do it: "For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resist what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

Paul was dealing with a very harsh and difficult circumstance. The reason why he says this to the church is this: God is in control. Whether the government is out of control, God's not out of control. It doesn't change the mission and the purpose of the church, which is to advance the gospel and to care for one another. That's the purpose. It is not to overthrow governments or to dictate what governments will do.

The United States is a unique situation in the history of Christianity. For the first time in the history of Christianity, Christians can rise up and actually speak their opinion on how things could be done.

Justin Perdue: They could weigh in on the political process.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. It's a very unique situation.

Justin Perdue: I think it's a legitimate question to survey the New Testament and ask. Paul wrote the vast majority of the epistles, but how much ink is spilled by Paul on political and societal issues? Practically none, other than some of the things that we just been citing.

The apostles do not spill ink on political and societal issues. Paul says submit your government. 1 Peter has language about suffering unjustly, where you bear up under it because we look to Christ who suffered unjustly in our place. That's really how the apostles talk about that kind of stuff. But again, we do want to acknowledge that the United States, in terms of the representative republic and this constitutional order of government that we have, is unique in the scope of world history, in one sense, and it's also unique in the history of Christianity. So we do, as citizens and Christians, have an opportunity and a civic responsibility to speak and cast a vote, and to give input as to how we are governed. That is not something that the Christians in the first century, by and large, would have been able to do. We acknowledge that.

It matters that we think through these things, but we think through them as citizens of the common kingdom, who are at the same time citizens of the redemptive kingdom in heaven. When we cast the vote, what we're doing is we are using wisdom, discernment, and conscience to make a call as to how justice can best be executed politically in our land, and we are making a determination for the sake of the common kingdom in the United States. How can I best use my vote to be of the best benefit to my neighbor in America? Christians with the same convictions, high level, may disagree at the level of wisdom. They may disagree in the voting booth.

One of the only other things that Paul does is he encourages us to pray for our leaders. That's something we can do.

Jon Moffitt: That we may live peaceably with them.

Justin Perdue: Peaceful and godly lives. That's instructive for us.

So whoever is in office, regardless of whether we voted for them or not, we should pray for them. We should pray that they would have wisdom, we should pray that they would make good and upright decisions, and it matters not if I like the person or not. That's something that we can lead in well even in our churches.

My concern in some of this is that when we talk and we act as though there's only one way for a Christian to vote—that there's this requirement of if you're going to be orthodox and faithful to Christ, this is what one must do—I fear that when we do that, the gospel is confused with a political party, and the church is effectively reduced to a political movement. The church is way bigger than any one particular political movement. The gospel transcends any consideration of politics.

I want to contend for the privacy of the gospel, and I want to contend for the unity that all Christians have in Christ, regardless of how you vote if you're an American, and regardless of what country you live in. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, and we have Jesus in common. All of that is confused, and a bunch of clutter is thrown on top of the gospel when we start making these very strong statements about voting patterns. I don't really care how pious, or upright, or how courageous they may sound. They're unhelpful, I fear.

Jon Moffitt: The biggest issue that I am seeing in the evangelical world in the United States is that we put more hope in the power of a government than we do in the issued word of God and the system by which God has instituted. God has said that it is the power of the gospel that transforms hearts and minds. It's through this gospel going through the administration of the church, not the government. As a matter of fact, the church and the gospel have always exploded in moments of persecution. Somehow, we think that God is going to crush the United States if we vote the wrong way, no matter who you think is going to save the United States, and then God's work is going to be thwarted because we, as Christians, made the wrong decision. I can tell you right now that God has already told us how to govern our lives and what our emphasis and focus should be. Our focus should be on the administration of the work that He has given the church.

This doesn't mean that I am not caring for my country. Paul doesn't disconnect the two. To love neighbor is to do what's right for the American people. There are differing opinions on what is right for the American people, and I'm okay to have those disagreements. It's just like how some people think like you shouldn't eat grease and sugar because it's not good for you, and other people think it's fine. I'm not going to make that a theological debate because the Bible doesn't.

Justin Perdue: You're right about how when Christians get so worked up over politics, it reveals how earthbound a lot of our theology is. That's sad. In many cases, it seems that we are hoping in God's word and even in Christ for this life in a way that perhaps we shouldn't. We should be more focused on the redemptive kingdom and the life to come. That's one observation.

Along with this kind of earthbound stuff that we're considering right now and not placing our hope in any political party, any government, or anything like that, I take pains as a pastor not only to keep my own personal political opinions private, but when it comes to my public ministry and any comments that I might make about politics, oftentimes those comments are with the purpose of blowing up utopian notions that are red and blue. I'm an equal opportunity destroyer of utopian notions when it comes to politics. Because what I want for all of our people is for them to understand that it's fine to have strong opinions and sincere disagreements with people about politics, but those things are at best secondary.

What really matters is that we know that the only thing that is going to right every wrong is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that only God can make all things new, and only God can restore all things to where we actually will have this eternal sure and lasting hope, this eternal paradise and peace with God and one another.

It's good, as a pastor, to help your people understand that they need to hold loosely, on the one hand, their political convictions and not put their hope and trust in something that can never deliver and can never save.

My hope and my prayer is that the posture of our people toward a person who voted differently than them would be one of charity and humility. I pray that the conversation would go something like this.: "You voted differently than I did in the election. Talk with me about why you voted the way you voted." If, in that conversation, convictions that are clearly at odds with Scripture are uncovered, then we can talk about and deal with that because we should. If somebody is advocating for something that is against the Bible and said they voted that way because they think it's a good thing, then we need to reconcile and talk about what Scripture says is bad but they think is good.

But if good motivations are assumed, and there's agreement at the level of conviction and disagreement as to how to vote, then we move forward in love and unity in Christ. We may agree to disagree about political matters and that's okay. That's what I would want in my own congregation, rather than it being the situation where we judge others who didn't vote the way that we did, and then question whether they're even in Christ at all.

Jon Moffitt: The divide that happens within the Christian community is really sad. It breaks my heart to see people make statements, and to put a lot of faith in a system that the Bible just never asks us to put faith in. We have never been asked to put our faith in a governmental system. We've been told to submit to it, and that God's the one that's in charge of it, but you just don't see in scripture where you're encouraged to put our faith in it.

The United States of America is not Israel and we are not a theocratic nation. We are not underneath the governance of God. (We're probably gonna need to do a podcast on the theonomy soon.) We're not underneath the laws of God as a nation. I am always thankful when our country does uphold the moral values that we do and when they give me the opportunity to put a vote in to hold to those laws, man, I'm going to put my vote in.

When I say abortion is sin, that's not a political statement—that's a biblical statement. When I say sexual deviancy is a sin, that's not a political statement—that is a biblical statement. But here's the one thing that you will not hear Justin and I do: our goal is not to shape the political values of our congregants. The mission that's been handed to us is to preach Christ and him crucified from all of Scripture and to lead people to rest in Jesus Christ, not vote for one political party. It breaks my heart to see churches do that. I'm not angry with them. I'm not upset. I'm just heartbroken because people are not finding rest weekly; they're finding unrest. They're putting so much hope in a government.

I'm telling you, the United States has not been around long, and it may not be around much longer. And guess what? God is still accomplishing His mission to save the elect. God is in control of His mission.

Justin Perdue: As pastors, we are absolutely teaching our people to view the world through the lens of Scripture and the gospel. Amen. Absolutely. Again, when it's a clear moral issue from Scripture, we preach it and herald it unashamedly. Like we've already been saying, there are a number of things that we can be very clear about at the level of conviction that are based on biblical truth: that abortion and sexual deviancy are sin, that racism is from hell, that marginalizing the weak, the needy, and the poor is terrible and wrong. We can all agree on those matters and we share those convictions.

Most importantly, we agree on Christ. We may disagree as to how best to use our vote as citizens in the United States, but in the church, we never disagree about Jesus and we don't ever disagree about our need for Christ. That's the main thing. I would stake my ministry on that. Jon and I are not saying we're just going to preach Jesus and everything else is insignificant.

Jon Moffitt: No, because if you're preaching Jesus, it will influence the way you think about these things.

Justin Perdue: Absolutely. And there are more than two speeds in our gearbox, too; there's more than essential and irrelevant. There's a spectrum of importance here, but you keep the main things the main things, and then you preach biblical truth and moral truth from Scripture. Then when it comes to a wisdom decision and exercising prudence, then we may very well think our brothers and sisters are unwise but we need to be careful about throwing around the S word: sin.

When we say that somebody is in sin for a wisdom decision they've made, we need to have a very straight line that we can draw from Scripture to our statement and proclamation that you're in sin. That's where nuance and thoughtfulness are required because it's easy for me to look at somebody and say, "If you are pro abortion, that's sin. If you are for the marginalization of the poor and you are for the marginalization of minorities, that's sin." I can say that from Scripture. But then I can't draw such a straight line from Scripture to the voting booth because I realize that wisdom has to be exercised in making that judgment call on who to vote for.

Jon Moffitt: It's just not as black and white as everybody wants to make it. When someone asks us how they should vote, our answer to this is you use all of what Scripture has given you, and this is a wisdom issue, and you do the best you can and try not to violate your conscience and trust in the sufficiency of Christ in his sovereignty.

I would say stay out of the political debates because they are just not helpful.

Justin Perdue: Exercise your civic responsibility, use discernment, view things through the lens of Scripture, vote your conscience, and love your brothers and sisters in Christ.

Jon Moffitt: Do not divide your church. Paul says to make every effort to extol gentleness, patience, and meekness with the bond of unity in Christ. Unfortunately, the peace of the gospel is not in unity, and is not being seen in this in the scene, and it's sad and heartbreaking.

Justin Perdue: We could, we could riff on this for longer, but I think we've communicated the main things we want to communicate. Don't misunderstand anything that we're saying to mean, like I said from the jump, that we don't think it matters how you vote, or that all votes are morally equivalent. That's not what we're saying. I trust we've been clear enough about what matters most in the unity that we have in Christ, and how it's not as black and white as people want to make it.

Exercise charity, love, and humility in the way that you have conversations with brothers and sisters in Christ about political matters and about all things. Keep pointing one another to Christ.

Jon Moffitt: If you want to read Justin's article, it will be a lot shorter than this. If you wanted to share it with someone, you can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and the article will be there. You'll be able to read that.

Thank you for listening. Talk to you soon.

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### MEMBERS Left Behind: Have We Moved On from the Gospel? (Transcript)

*Published: October 28, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-left-behind-have-we-moved-on-from-the-gospel-transcript*
*Tags: Gospel, moving past the gospel, Pietism*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-left-behind-have-we-moved-on-from-the-gospel/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast. As always, Justin and I are so thankful that you are here.  
  
Justin, one of the things that you and I both experienced on a weekly basis is people walking up to us going, "I didn't know what I didn't know. It wasn't until I could taste it, then I saw it." Explain what these people mean when they say that.  
  
Justin Perdue: Coming to a service at a confessional Reformed church, like the churches where Jon and I are pastors, it is very much a taste-and-see reality. In particular, a number of people have come to our church and they are already Calvinists in their theology. In a very pointed way, people who are Christians and who have been in pretty robust Calvinistic contexts come and expect it to be basically the same way at CBC or at Grace Reformed or Christ Community where Jimmy is—and it isn't. They say, "There's something different about this place. There is something different about this church and these services." They're trying to put their finger on it and they just can't. They're asking you questions and that's when it starts to come out. We start to have this conversation.  
  
I think what people find refreshing in our context and yours, Jon, is that Christ and the gospel permeates every aspect of the Sunday morning gathering. It begins from the time that they are welcomed to church where our need and our sin is acknowledged, and Christ and his sufficiency and grace are heralded. We're welcomed to the gathering that way. There is no confusion here: none of us are sufficient and none of us have obeyed well enough. We actually understand that we are desperate and bankrupt and needy, and Jesus has met all of those needs, and now we're going to worship.  
  
Then, in our context, we'll have a time of just brief silence having acknowledged how much we need the Lord. We take a moment of silence to prepare our hearts for what we're about to do. Then we read God's word over the people in a call to worship. Then we pray a prayer of invocation from the jump and just ask God to be with us in everything we do, to inhabit these ordinary means, and to minister to us.  
  
Then we're off into a confession of sin and absolution. We're off to a confessional piece from either the London Baptist Confession or an ancient creed. It's simple stuff: we're reading Scripture, we're praying corporately, we're singing songs, and then it's the message, then after the message is the Lord's Table every Sunday. The emphasis through all of this is Christ for you—he's sufficient for you and you're safe in him. We're preaching God's word from a redemptive-historical perspective with Jesus at the center. Every sermon is saturated with Christ and the gospel. We're not just trying to tag the plan of salvation someplace or insert it someplace in the sermon. The whole sermon is preached from a perspective of how do we understand this passage in light of Christ? Then we offer the people Christ in the Lord's Table. "Come, the table is not for the perfect; it's for the weak. If you've blown it, the table is for you. Run up here and receive Christ in the bread and the cup, and what he has done for you. This is about God's faithfulness to you, not your faithfulness to him." Then we have singing around the table and then we close with a benediction. That's a general service at CBC.  
  
The takeaway of people is always something like, "Brother, I was so encouraged because this was all about Christ." Then they want to understand what it is that's different. As they meet the people, they say that everybody is so warm and kind, and it feels safe. The people are honest and transparent. It's always such a fun conversation to talk about worship, but then to also talk about this efficiency of Christ and what that does in driving and shaping a culture or a congregation, and what it means for our lives together. It's only after those conversations and people have been with us for a while that they taste and see all these things. Then it clicks. They realize what they have been missing, but now that the toothpaste is out of the tube. They can't get it back in. Now that they've seen it, they can't unsee it. That's the experience of many people that come to us and I'm sure it's the exact same thing for you, Jon.  
  
That was a long explanation, but that's the way I know to describe what those people's experiences were.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm not going to add much. Justin and I, our services are almost identical. They're not identical, but I would say they're pretty close. What we're trying to get at is that when you go to certain churches, and I can speak from experience here, I'm not being critical. With COVID-19, I've seen even more than I care to even admit how much I've seen.  
  
Depending on the style of the church, there's this excitement. They're trying to create an atmosphere or experience where it's high energy, or it could even be solemn where we're creating an atmosphere of respect. They're trying to create this experience and if you don't end up having that experience with everyone that's around you, you feel less than everyone. You feel that something is wrong with you, or something happened to you that you didn't feel what everyone else felt, or you end up having that experience.  
  
I can remember one of my new guys that have been coming. He said that what was so disappointing for him is that he wanted Monday through Saturday to feel like Sunday morning at 10:00 AM—and it didn't. He wanted to experience that high-energy emotion, what the music brought, and what those sermons brought from Monday to Saturday as well. What it becomes is a spiritual rah-rah moment where we are trying to motivate you to think and do certain things. When you walk out of the door, you fall flat on your face Monday morning because that's not reality. What the church should be offering you is a hope that sustains you through the week. As you feel the weight of your sin, your brothers and sisters are there to carry the burden and you're there to carry their burden. What you learn is that the gospel draws the people of God together—it doesn't individualize them. As a matter of fact, it makes you scared to be individualized because you know you aren't strong enough to be alone.  
  
I felt this last night when I was at men's Bible study. I was exhausted. I was so tired and I didn't know if I had the energy to do it. When I left there, I didn't know if I would be able to go to sleep because I was so energized. I was energized not by some emotional conversation we had. It was so clarifying how Christ had come in and minister to the weak and feeble that night, and that none of the men that showed up there came in strong; they were confessing sins, they were talking about their struggles, we were talking about people who are dying of cancer, and children that had passed away. It was a really, really heavy night and the hope was Christ will help us through this. Together, we will make this through. And it was the study that we're doing on the Lord's Table. It was so unbelievably encouraging because it wasn't us telling each other how we can do better this week. It was us telling each other how we get through this week by grasping onto Christ. When our grasp is a little weak right now, others can come over and hold us. Others hold us up a little bit now because we are feeling weak and feeble, and we don't have to do this alone. The unity that I felt last night is what energized me because I realized I'm not alone in my struggle. My brothers are here to love and care for me, and they're here to give me Christ. That is so different than making a list of five things to do better this week during COVID-19.  
  
Justin Perdue: I had a couple of really sweet meetings yesterday with people who were visiting the church, but I also had a wonderful sort of final meeting with our elder development guys for this cycle through. It was just so edifying and encouraging for me to talk with those men. Three of these guys who have gone through elder development have already been put forward by our current elders to serve as pastors in our church— and we're thrilled about that. But just the conversations about our brotherhood in Christ, our need of him, and his power and sufficiency in the nature of pastoral ministry.  
  
We were reflecting back together on a meeting that we had had recently. We were going around the table with every guy talking about his life, talking about his struggle, talking about his weakness, talking about his marriage, etc. We're encouraging one another in Christ and praying for each other. It's that kind of honesty and openness that when the gospel permeates every aspect of the church's life, and when the sufficiency of Christ is heralded, it makes it safe to be that way. It is such an edifying thing. It's a comforting thing because we realize that we're not alone and we're not called to bear these burdens alone. We understand that we are not uniquely messed up; everybody is battling these things. We're able to pray for one another, lock arms together, and ultimately point one another to Christ who is our hope and righteousness.  
  
There is something that is hard to describe. I know you're trying to describe it and I'm trying to describe it, but it is incredible. Is it emotional at points? Absolutely. But it's not just this emotional high that you ride, it is this rock-solid thing that's always there underneath you. We're not trying to create some experience through a gathering or through some meeting where you can just ride the high for the rest of the week. That's not at all what it's about. It's about giving people and extolling the power, sufficiency, mercy, and grace of Jesus that will be with them and under them on their best or worst day.  
  
What is it that's different? It's a different emphasis. It's a different tone.  
  
I say this when people visit our church and we meet and talk: there are other churches in our area that are trying to create a similar culture to what we're trying to create. But the culture is not directly driven by the doctrine. They're trying to create a culture of compassion, they're trying to create a culture of openness and transparency and honesty, but they're going about it in this roundabout way, or they're creating it through this kind of cult of personality or through some very charismatic leadership or something. The gospel is there but I tell people in our church that the stability and safety of the situation are because the doctrine and the culture are inextricably linked together, and the doctrine is directly driving the culture. That will be sustained over the long haul of the church's life. It will grow with us. It's just a much more stable and safe situation.  
  
I think that's a difference in a confessional Reformed context, and in other church contexts too, is that the theology and the culture of compassion and transparency are inextricably linked together. I think people taste and see that reality as well as they come and experience it over the course of time.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hopefully this brings a little bit of light to the conversation. What we're trying to do is bring relief to you, especially for those of you who are struggling and can feel something's off or something's wrong. Why is this not feeling right? What am I missing? Those are good feelings. At times it means that you are starting to understand the emphasis of the Bible, which is Christ and him crucified, the emphasis of the church which is a people who are dependent upon each other resting in the Spirit's power. The Spirit comes and does this work through the administration of the gifted people: the teachers, preachers, etc. Paul says that their purpose is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. People don't understand that. They think the preachers and teachers are to equip themselves to become a better Christian. No, they are to equip you for the work of the ministry. When the work of the ministry happens, which is we administrate love and kindness, and we're all doing our part and building each other up, that's what you're feeling. You're feeling that void of the gospel and the Spirit working the gospel into its people—you're feeling that.  
  
I noticed this morning on the Facebook group that someone was struggling and saying he needs to find a church that he can be a part of.  
  
Justin Perdue: The only thing I was going to say is that if you're feeling those things, you can consider what's wise for your life. You do need to find a church where these things can be your reality. Maybe for some of you, that may mean that you need to move. If you have that flexibility, it's something that you may very well need to consider.  
  
We've had a few people move to our area recently just to be a part of CBC, and we got more people telling us they were coming especially now as more jobs are going remote.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We've gained families because of that.  
  
Justin Perdue: It is often a wise decision. If you can do it, prioritize it. You don't even need to go to our churches—just find a church like this.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I hope this brought some clarity. Interact with us. Have a conversation with us on the Facebook group or send us a message or voicemail. We'd love those as well.  
  
We'll see you guys next week. Thanks for your kindness and faithfulness. Lord willing, we'll see you next week. We'll talk to you soon.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/left-behind-have-we-moved-on-from-the-gospel-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/left-behind-have-we-moved-on-from-the-gospel/)

---

### Left Behind: Have We Moved On from the Gospel? (Transcript)

*Published: October 28, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/left-behind-have-we-moved-on-from-the-gospel-transcript*
*Tags: Gospel, moving past the gospel, Pietism*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/left-behind-have-we-moved-on-from-the-gospel/)**

Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we have a conversation about moving past the gospel. The gospel really is the beginning point for many, but it's not the point of the Christian life—the Christian life really is involved with more. We enter into the Christian life through the gospel, but we don't necessarily see it as the point or that which drives our everyday life.

Then in the members' podcast, Justin and I try and explain that experience that you have when you're in a church and the gospel becomes the center point of every aspect of the church service, and even the church life, compared to a church that assumes the gospel and they tack it on at the end as an invitation. We hope you enjoy.

Justin and I often want to talk about what I think gets us going, what we find to be the passion behind our ministries, and the passion behind Theocast. One of those is the theme of Theocast, which is resting in Christ. We're always trying to look at ways in which the Christian life has this rest robbed from them, where they carry around a burden where Christ has relieved them of that burden, and the burden is being placed back on them and what causes that.

One of those is pietism, which is a massive theme within our podcast. Specifically, we want to get into a more nuanced issue within the broader Christian world. This isn't just in evangelicalism, this isn't just in the Baptist legalistic world; this can come in even into some of the Reformed world. It sneaks in very easily because our hearts desire this.

What we're going to be talking about is how we can separate the gospel from the Christian life where the gospel isn't that driving force where it's seen in every area of our life. Even when there was a movement a while back—was it 10 or 15 years ago? It was the gospel everything movement: the gospel in marriage, the gospel in parenting, the gospel in your job, the gospel in food, the gospel in everything. But even in that movement, what I began to realize in those podcasts is that they would actually never explain the gospel—they would assume it in their book—and they only emphasized the implications of the gospel. They never actually got to the importance of the gospel. It just became the title to get people's attention.

But the gospel wasn't the driving force of the book or the sermons: it was the implications of the gospel, which are the how-tos and what-to-dos after the gospel. The emphasis was still on what we should be doing, not on what Christ has done.

That's what we want to try and explain to you: the difference between the implications of the gospel and the gospel, and then what the gospel and the Christian life are and how the two come together.

Justin Perdue: For many people listening to this, perhaps you have been in what we call broad evangelicalism, or maybe you're still there in a broadly evangelical context. You have not really heard a lot of confessional Reformed theology or you're certainly not in a confessional Reformed church. We want to try to put some handles on this for that listener as we go through this conversation.

Something that Jon and I were talking about before we hit record is it is clear to us that as we look at the evangelical church in recent decades, a large project of the evangelical church—and this is a good thing—has been focused on evangelism. Again, we want to commend that; we want sinners to trust in Christ. But what that has meant in many contexts is that the church has become so focused with getting people in that it has all kinds of bad implications for those who have come in and are now part of the church.

What I mean here is that the gospel is often viewed as the entry point to the Christian life. It is treated as if it's the starting point or the doorway in, and then once you're in, they move on to other stuff—in particular the Christian life and what that should look like, as well as the things that you should be doing and should abstain from doing, the things that you should be feeling, and the things that you should be thinking.

Jon and I are not saying that there isn't room for that kind of talk. Absolutely not; the Scripture contains things about that. But whenever you view the gospel as the entry point of the Christian life, there are problems that flow out of that. There are implications of that kind of understanding.

In many evangelical churches, even to this day, the Sunday morning gathering is essentially seen as a stationary Billy Graham crusade where the goal of Sunday morning is to reach the seekers reach the lost, and to bring them in. The gospel, in that sense, even from a preaching perspective, is really seen as primarily needing to be preached to the person who is not a Christian. It's like I need to preach the gospel and make the gospel clear to the person who has shown up today who does not know Christ.

We would just want to kindly push back against that and say, of course we should preach the gospel to those people, but the Sunday morning gathering is actually for the saints; it's for the edification of the body of Christ. The primary way that the saints are built up, sustained, confirmed, and strengthened in the faith is through the proclamation of the gospel to them. Of course, the person who isn't a believer who shows up at church is going to hear the gospel. But we, like Martin Luther would say, are going to preach the gospel every week to our people because we all tend to forget it every week. We tend to move on in our own minds and hearts from the gospel. If there is not a very self-conscious emphasis in the church about the centrality of the gospel and all things, and of the redeemed or the saints' need of the gospel all the time, then inevitably other things are going to become the focus. What we're trying to highlight here is that the implications of the gospel become the focus rather than the gospel itself.

I just wanted to start there because I think that's the experience of many people: that the gospel is for the non-believer, and then the Christian life and an emphasis and focus on that—whether it's discipleship marriage, family, parenting, finances, leadership, or whatever it is—those things become what we really need to consider and concern ourselves with in the church.

Jon Moffitt: Self-improvement; it's all about how to become a better me, and we can make it look and sound more biblical. How do I become more like Christ? That sounds good. It's like disagreeing that Jesus is the point of the Bible: no one would disagree with that but at the same time, if they agree with it, they don't read and preach the Bible that way. They don't read it as if Jesus is the point— they read it as if they are the point. Every time we interact with the Bible, we're interacting with it as if they are instructions for how I can become a better me.

One of the things that we're trying to do at Theocast is to not say the same thing over and over again, but really try and pull apart our thoughts in history so that you can see it from a different angle every time we look at it—from what we write and what we say. One of the things I know is true in my own life is that the gospel that was handed to me was a true gospel. What I mean by a true gospel is it was true good news. It was this: you're a sinner, god's going to judge you for your sin, and the only thing that can redeem you is Jesus, and that payment has to be a perfect Jesus. I believed in the virgin birth, I believe that Jesus lived a perfect life, and I believe he died on the cross for my sins. All of that took place within the gospels; none of that took place outside of the gospels. That's how I became a family member.

Now let's talk about what it looks like to be a family member. This may sound like it's a false gospel but it's not—I had a watered-down gospel. I had a very elementary level gospel. I think the Bible is designed to add to your understanding of the gospel for the rest of your Christian life. When Paul says he should be given the meat of the word, but instead was giving the milk, Paul was talking about a watered-down versus a robust gospel. He is saying they should have a robust gospel but they don't; they have a very watered and surface-level gospel, and he was disappointed in them for it. This is interesting to me because he wasn't upset with their actions. Their actions were the result of their theology, and he was upset with their actions. He was upset with their theology saying, "You should know better. And you don't, because you haven't been trained well, and you haven't been growing in your faith."

One of the reasons Justin, Jimmy, and I try to help everyone have a covenantal/redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture is that it broadens the gospel for you. The gospel is not just contained in the four gospels. The gospel is seen, developed, and creates this wide perspective all the way back to Genesis 3\. I would even say in Genesis 1 because Jesus is described as the creator and sustainer of the world, who is the savior of the world. Your understanding of covenant theology, and even your understanding of redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture, is going to allow you to have that robust understanding of the gospel.

Now, I need to be very clear here before I hand this off to Justin. I am not saying that you don't have the gospel, or you've misunderstood the gospel, or your gospel is wrong, or you can't have a full gospel unless you have a covenantal redemptive-historical understanding of the Bible. I am not saying that. Please don't hear me say that your gospel is wrong. All I'm saying is that often what happens in evangelicalism and the reason that we emphasize what we should be doing—pietism—to earn God's favor—the implications of the gospel—is because we haven't been trained in how the Bible is pushing us towards a robust understanding of the gospel as our motivation for the Christian life. We go to the actions and we miss out what's already been done. Done versus do. We should be looking at what's been done before we ever look at or emphasize what we need to be doing.

Justin Perdue: Essentially what we're driving at here is how the gospel and the Christian life are somewhat separated from one another in the minds of many people. That's very clear as you look at many churches and the kind of culture that exists within them. The gospel is there, the gospel is preached, and it's not that Christ crucified is not heralded. But when it comes to the-rubber-meets-the-road issues of the Christian life, it turns into a focus on the believer and the believer's performance, effort, discipline, and all those kinds of things. There is a focus on needing to educate people in terms of how to live and giving them tips, wisdom, and some tricks in terms of how to do things better. That's what the project of the church becomes.

I want to be really clear too. There are plenty of implications of the gospel that we could unpack for a long time on a podcast like this, and by implications of the gospel, we mean the things that naturally flow out of it according to God's word. In particular, these are the things that have everything to do with how we relate to each other, how we should treat one another, having love for the brothers, being eager and willing and ready to forgive, to seek reconciliation, to pursue unity, to flee from things that are evil, to hold fast to things that are good.

Jon Moffitt: Can I just give one example here to help people understand what an implication of the gospel is? The first three chapters of Ephesians is gospel. It is a glorious gospel. It is Paul giving some of the most robust theological explanations of the gospel you can find in all of Scripture. It's dripping with Old Testament imagery. Then he says this in Ephesians 4:1: "I, therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called," he's talking about the calling of the gospel, and he continues, "with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." That's an implication of the gospel. It is saying that if this is true of you, this is how you respond.

Justin Perdue: Or think of Jesus when he said that when your brother sins against you, confess that to you and then ask for forgiveness, you forgive him. That's an implication of the gospel. We could talk about a bunch of those. Those are very good—those are things that I know Jon, Jimmy, and I teach, preach, and emphasize in our local churches. We value those things very much but what we are trying to drive here on this particular episode is the way in which the implications of the gospel, as good as those things might be, are often functionally divorced from the gospel itself in terms of how we live in the church.

On the apostolic pattern, you mentioned the letter to the Ephesians— it's a great example of this, and is maybe the clearest one that there is in Scripture. But I would argue that all of the epistles are written in this way where the apostles always begin not only with the gospel, but they begin by reassuring their listeners, their readers, their audience that they are in Christ and that they have been justified. The apostles reassure them that they have been called, that they are loved, that they're being kept by God, and all of those kinds of things. Then having made that crystal clear—that your identity is now one of being in Christ and that your status is now one of being justified—the apostles go on to talk about implications of how the redeemed live. That's what we are advocating for: do not ever assume the gospel, do not ever assume that we all, as the saints who gather together or who are trying to live our lives, are always thinking about our identity in Christ and are always aware of our justified status. We often are not because this life is hard: we struggle, we sin, we doubt, and we wrestle.

I had a conversation yesterday with a brother who was visiting our church with his family. He looked at me and he just said, "Justin, this has been so refreshing for us because every Sunday, when we come, we are given Christ." He looks at me and says, "That's what we need." We had a great conversation about that, that I don't need to unpack right now, but he's exactly right—and this is what we're talking about. When we show up to church on Sunday, we've lived Monday to Saturday battling our sin, battling our flesh, doubting all kinds of things, doing things that we swore we would never do, feeling things we don't want to feel. The world bombards us, finances are tight, our job sucks, politics are insane, and then you show up on Sunday. What do we need? We don't need a list of things that you need to be doing and things that will improve your life. I need Jesus, brother. Can you give me Christ?

Jon Moffitt: Let me ask you a question. When the pastor shows up and says, "Here are five ways to deal with this," would you say that what he's really saying is, "Here are five ways to handle the sinful nature you still have."

Justin Perdue: Is that what he's saying?

Jon Moffitt: He isn't understanding it to be that way. I guess what I'm saying is this is the end of Colossians where Paul says these have an appearance of wisdom, but are of no value of stopping the indulgence of the flesh. You just finished describing the battle against the flesh, right? The people who assume the gospel or only preach about the implications of the gospel.

Justin Perdue: They are not coming at it from the perspective that you and I would come at it from. They're not articulating it the way that I just did: here's your battle, here's your experience, now look to Christ, consider Christ, and now having considered him and having been reassured, flee from stupidity, love one another, and practice these things. That's how we want to do it.

I fear that often what happens in many church contexts is when the gospel is assumed, meaning it's assumed that everybody understands the gospel.

Jon Moffitt: You wouldn't be here if you didn't believe.

Justin Perdue: Right. We got the gospel, now let's talk about how we need to be living. Often, I would agree that along with that is a misunderstanding of the internal war—the saint-sinner reality that we are at the same time justified and sinner, and that we are battling against our corrupted flesh, and that our inner man delights in God's Law and wants to obey, but then our flesh does not want to obey and wants things that are wicked. I think there is an ignorance of that, often in this kind of teaching and preaching, and in these kinds of church contexts.

This is the assumption: we assume you have the gospel, we're trusting you have Christ and that's why we're here, and you have the Holy Spirit—and this all sounds very good—so now go about doing this thing or that thing. We have the Holy Spirit so let's talk about what our marriages should look like. We have the Holy Spirit so let's talk about what good leadership is. Or whatever it may be. It's not that talking about marriage or leadership is out of bounds in the church—that's not what we're saying at all. It has everything to do with what the emphasis is, and it has everything to do with what the tone is. If we are understanding marriage, leadership, parenting, work, employment and all these kinds of things, if we are understanding that and viewing that through the lens of Christ and the gospel where Christ is in the foreground and the Christian life is in the background, then praise God. Go for it. That's good. That's what we should do. But what we're trying to address today is how that whole thing has been reoriented and in the foreground is all this stuff about us—how we need to live, what our marriages need to look like, and what kind of employees we need to be. Then in the background is this assumption of Christ in the gospel.

What we're pleading for is to bring Christ back up into the foreground so that when we gather, it's redundantly clear that what we have gathered for is Christ. The other things that are contained in God's word will be given appropriate consideration in light of Christ. That emphasis makes all the difference.

Jon Moffitt: That's the word: emphasis. Where are you putting the emphasis?

The passage that has helped me the most here is 2 Peter 1:3\. Peter makes no bones about it. If you begin in the very beginning of the chapter, he says, "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence," Peter immediately starts with the sovereignty of God and that it's through the knowledge of Christ, his glory, and his excellence is the way in which we govern our lives, "by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire." Where is Peter putting the emphasis? The divine power and God's nature and the knowledge of that—those are what govern us.

Now he does the same thing Paul does. He says that if this is true, then you should govern yourself in such a way. Then he gives things like godliness and brotherly affection with love. He says, "For if these qualities are yours and increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." He's saying, "These are purposeful. These are good things. They make the work of God effective." Now listen to where he points the emphasis back again. It says, "For if these qualities are yours and increasing, they keep you from being ineffective." Verse nine, "For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins." He says they are to be diligent in examining this cleansing. These are the next two verses where he talks about where our emphasis is on what is waiting for us. This is the good news of the gospel that we have been cleansed that we have been given union with Christ, that we have been given a final home and destiny, and that this is not our home. He is saying that if you are not showing grace, kindness, and brotherly love, and you're not adding these things into your life, it's not that you haven't been trained well or that you need to be afraid or that you need more, he's saying you have forgotten the gospel. You've watered it down which should be robust. You have stopped emphasizing what needs to be emphasized. Emphasizing the gospel is what gives you motivation and explanation for the implications of the gospel. When you deemphasize the gospel, you now don't understand why you are doing what you're doing or your reasons for obedience are wrong. That's pietism.

Justin Perdue: Let me pick up on that. You and I are on the same wavelength. Jon and I do not want to be misunderstood. The question is not, "Should we be doing good works in the Christian life?" The answer to that question is an obvious and resounding yes. Of course, we should be doing good works in the Christian life. We should pursue them. The question is, "Why do we do good works?" What's the motivation for good works? The answer to that is that the motivation, at the most fundamental level, is Jesus and what he has done for me.

This is very much the language of Paul in Philippians 3: I press on to take hold of the prize and run the race, and all these kinds of things. Why? Because Jesus has taken hold of me. This is Ephesians 2:8-10 that we walk in: we've been saved by grace through faith, it's a gift of God that no man may boast, we are created in Christ Jesus, we are his workmanship, and we are going to walk in the good works that had been prepared beforehand for us to walk in. So we're going to be motivated by Christ and his work for us in order to even go about pursuing good works.

This is a big issue here: we're not concerned with our own personal improvement for our own sake. We are concerned for the good of our brothers and sisters, and the good of our neighbor. We realize that these good works that have been prepared for us to walk in, we do them because of Christ, out of love and gratitude toward God, and out of love for our neighbor. It makes a world of difference in terms of the emphasis and the understanding.

I have this conversation constantly in my own church. People ask me, "Justin, it does matter how we live, right?" And I'll say, "Absolutely. It matters how we live." Of course, we should be doing these kinds of things. But the thing is, when you begin to understand the centrality of Christ in the gospel in all of the Christian life, you will find that you're going to be pursuing the same things but for different reasons. You will be pursuing the same things with a very different heart posture, not chasing after something that you have yet to obtain, but you are living in Christ realizing that every spiritual blessing has already been given to you. Now, because I'm safe, I can concern myself with doing these good things so that my neighbor will benefit, and so that God will be honored.

Jon Moffitt: When people say we should be doing things, I always say yes, but not the things that you've been told to do. Everything you've been handed in the Christian life, I would say, is a misinterpretation of the gospel. If we are saved through the message of the gospel, this is the good news, and we become people of the gospel, we live underneath the banner of children of God, unified in Him, justified, sanctified, glorified, cannot wait for this reunion with God while it be in His presence, that is my new identity, I live in two worlds, this world is not my home—those are all things that are true. Then what you are handed is nothing that is related to that. What you are handed is a list of what you should be doing as a Christian, as if the salvation is not quite finished; it's almost finished, it's 99% done, but there's still 1% left for you. We would never word it that way, but that's exactly what it is. You're handed these lists that you must do as a Christian to prove that you're a Christian. The emphasis becomes centered on proving your salvation.

I'm going to lose my temper here for a minute. I'm just so fed up with this whole idea that the Christian life is about you proving you're a Christian. The emphasis becomes on you demonstrating that somehow you have faith—and the gospel says if you have faith, these things are true. You don't prove that they are true.

This whole thing about lazy Christianity or lukewarm Christianity, the problem is not that they don't want to do it, the problem is they don't understand why they should do it. When someone says that they think someone is a lukewarm Christian, I ask them why. They say it's because they don't have any desire to listen to sermons on YouTube, or they don't post any quotes about the Bible on their Instagram, or they don't read their Bible faithfully. None of those have anything to do with Christianity. None of them do. The thing they should be doing is showing kindness and mercy.

What's interesting to me is that in Ephesians 4, the means by which we receive the gospel is through God the Spirit gifting the church preachers and teachers, and it is through the administration of God's word with His people that we receive the gospel. Many people go home and they think they just need to read their Bible more so they can think on the gospel more, and the more they think on the gospel, the more they will be like Jesus. It doesn't say that in Ephesians; it says when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love. It doesn't say when you go home and meditate on the gospel, you'll be more like Jesus.

Justin Perdue: I may want to circle back and comment on the centrality of the word and sacrament in the service, the Sunday morning gathering, and even what the ministry of the word and the administration of the Lord's table is about. We may want to circle back to that.

I want to riff on something else for just a minute. You mentioned how there are things that people would never say in a certain way but then they would functionally live that way. One thing that nobody would ever say, at least in these terms, is, "Now that we've got the gospel, let's move on to the real important stuff which is the Christian life." Nobody would ever say it like that. But people almost do sometimes when they come up to you and they say, "We need more meat in the sermon." By meat in the sermon, they mean they want us to tell them a bunch of stuff to do. That's a dead giveaway that people are thinking they need instruction on what they need to be doing. "I need an application. I don't so much need the objective declarative realities of what God has done. I need imperative stuff. That's what the majority of the sermon needs to be." Nobody would ever tell you to move on to the real important stuff of the Christian life, but you see it in the way that people are saying or acting like they already have the gospel and that's that.

Whenever I perceive that I think what that's indicative of is a misunderstanding of several things. It is a misunderstanding of the gospel itself. It's true that it is the efficiency of the work of Christ, the nature of redemption, and how God saves, but it's also a tremendous misunderstanding of our own need.

When you think that the primary need you have is just to be told how to live well now that you are a Christian, brother or sister, I think you've missed it. You have overestimated yourself. I am not trying to be a broker for Satan's doubt. I know that you have the Holy Spirit of God who has taken up residence in you—that is a new covenant reality so praise be to the Lord. At the same time, you are in the midst of a war against your sin, your flesh, and your corruption. You are in a world that is fallen and that is groaning like you are. What you need primarily every time we gather on Sunday is Christ, and then we'll talk about this other stuff. There's a reason God tells us to do this weekly gathering regularly. Again, back to Luther's comment, we tend to forget the gospel. We tend to forget what's true. We need to be reminded again and again of what Christ has done. It's like what Paul says in Philippians 3:1, "To write the same things to you is no trouble for me and it's safe for you." Then he goes on to talk about the righteousness that's been given to us through faith in Christ over and against any kind of righteousness that we would have we have on our own.

We need to be reminded of that all the time because it is what sustains us in the Christian life; it's what propels us, it's what motivates us, it's what strengthens us and confirms us in the faith. We have Christ given to us every week as we gather in the word, in the table, and also through prayer and song and other means.

It's one of those things wherein our own respective churches, we're unashamed. This is what we're doing. If you want a lot of how-to's or if you want a lot of application and heavy preaching, there are a thousand places you can go, but here the primary thing that you will get unapologetically is Christ every week because that's how we understand the Christian life. We need Jesus and then everything else that we consider is only after we have considered Christ. It is only because of Christ that we consider these things, and we can only consider them in and under Christ, being safe and secure in him. Then we can honestly wrestle and struggle to live together in a way that we're called to live. But it's that orientation that does allow us to rest in the midst of pursuing—obedience pursuing good works, pursuing any of that stuff.

Jon Moffitt: It's a total shift in thinking to think that what I really need is to feast on Christ. This goes to John 6\. He plays on the illustration where he talks about the manna or bread that came down from heaven. God sustained the Israelites for years in the wilderness, and he gave them just enough bread every single day. Jesus says he's that bread. It's not once either: he says he is that bread for you every day because the illustration that Jesus is making is that it's not that salvation happens once then you move on. You're being saved every day, and what is saving you right now is Christ and you holding onto him. Your faith in Christ is what saves you. The way we think about it is it's like a transaction that happened in the past and it's over. No, you are being saved.

Justin Perdue: Well, you are safe. It's not that it's uncertain, but your hope, your righteousness, your security, your peace, etc. is always and only Jesus. You've got to be reminded of that reality. You and I, as preachers of the word, sit under the word with the people—it's a "we" reality, it's not an "us and them" reality. It's not "me and you", it's "us and we". We need this, too. That's what we're doing when we gather and preach the word.

I don't think that reality can be emphasized enough: the Christian life is, not to be reductionistic, but it is always and only Christ. If we're talking in absolute terms, we cannot look anywhere other than Jesus. Can we be encouraged by our obedience? Can we be encouraged by good fruit? Can we be encouraged by the transformation of life? Sure. Can we look at our lives and thank God for His grace because we've seen good things happen in marriage, families, etc.? Of course, we can. God is gracious and good to us in those ways. No matter how well it's going for us, no matter how well we are doing, or if we're absolutely crushing it in the spheres of marriage, family, work, and leadership, no matter how good it's going, Jesus is our righteousness—him and him alone. We'd never move on from that need. We need to be reminded of that all the time.

Jon Moffitt: Just going back to the illustration in John 6\. It says, "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh. . . Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him." Is he legitimately saying we have to eat him? No.

Justin Perdue: He's not encouraging people to cannibalism.

Jon Moffitt: No, but what he is saying is, "I am your sustenance. I am the way in which you live."

We're going through a book in our church called _Truth We Can Touch_ by Tim Chester. It's a book we'll probably review here soon. Listen to this simple statement—this is the difference: "Part of the problem is that we too often view preaching as permanently conveying information about Christ rather than conveying the grace of Christ." That's what we're getting at. Preaching and the Christian life is about receiving this grace from Christ over and over again as it washes over us, not data about him to help us be better.

Justin Perdue: We are extolling the grace of Christ. We're extolling the mercy of Christ. We're extolling the power and the sufficiency of Christ to save sinners and wretches such as us. Thinking about John 6, it's beautiful. I preached this in a series of meditations that I did recently, too. It's so wonderful because he is saying, "You guys remember the manna? What that was ultimately about was me. Because just like the Israelites were sustained by bread that came down from heaven as they wandered in the wilderness, so too will you be sustained by the bread that comes down from heaven as you are sojourners and pilgrims on the way to the Celestial City." The bread is Jesus. It is metaphorical language. He's not encouraging people to cannibalism. I do think the Lord's supper is in view, but what that text is about is union with Christ. You are united to Jesus, you are feeding on him, he is your sustenance, you will endure, and your life is inextricably tethered to him. That's what we're communicating here. That needs to be the heartbeat of the church. That needs to be the DNA, the lifeblood, the resting heart rate, whatever phrase you want to use, of the church is that. Our life is always and only in Christ, and that needs to permeate every aspect of the church's life together on Sunday morning. We pray that perspective permeates all of our relationships as we hang out together, doing whatever we're doing outside of the assembly. It's so good. We're not just conveying information; we are extolling the grace, power, and sufficiency of Christ. We understand that is how the saints are edified.

Circling back to what I said at the beginning: of course, if there is a person who isn't a Christian who shows up at our services, they are going to be confronted with the gospel. From the welcome, as people show up, they're saying, "We're coming in need and in weakness, not in strength. We've blown it this week." If that's, you, Christ is our righteousness and he is able to save wretches even like us. Welcome to church. We're not confusing the issue.

Jon Moffitt: One last illustration then what we're going to move into the members' podcasts.

Even Paul, when he's talking about marriage, he says, "Husbands, love your wife as Christ loves the church." If you don't understand how Christ loves the church then you're not going to stand his illustration. The emphasis is not on loving your wife, the emphasis is on how to love your wife.

Justin Perdue: The emphasis is not be Jesus for your wife, the emphasis is love her in this way.

Jon Moffitt: This is true of even loving your neighbor.

In moving forward into our members' podcast, I want to try and give a little bit more of what the differences sound like of when you're in a church that is diving deeper into the gospel versus a church that tags the gospel at the end for the unbeliever that may not be there, or for the unbeliever that might be there. Right. The tag versus the emphasis. What do the two services look like? A lot of this is going to come down to word, sacrament, and prayer. We'll talk about that in our membership.

For those of you that don't know what that is, it's a simple way for you to support our ministry. We've been doing this now for quite a few years. As our ministry has grown, we have started to provide classes and books, and all of that costs money. This is a simple way for us to make sure that we can cover those costs. One resource that we were able to do recently is an introduction to covenant theology. There are so many people who don't know what that is. The two words put together, "covenant theology", is not even something they've heard before. So we wanted to give a simple introduction to that. It's a five-part series that you can find in our website for a donation of any amount. That would be helpful for us to cover those costs of producing that.

For those who are members, all of our classes are in there. I think we have five or six classes that are in there now. All of that is part of the membership. Of course, our membership podcasts are there as well. This is where we just take some extra time. It's a little bit more relaxed.

You can find out all that information over at our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-left-behind-have-we-moved-on-from-the-gospel-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-left-behind-have-we-moved-on-from-the-gospel/)

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### Introduction To Covenant Theology Part One (Transcript)

*Published: October 21, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/introduction-to-covenant-theology-part-one-transcript*
*Tags: Atonement, Biblical Theology, Covenant Theology, purpose of the bible, Redemptive Historical*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/introduction-to-covenant-theology-part-one/)**  
  
[**Download entire series**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/intro-to-covenant-theology/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the education series on An Introduction to Covenant Theology. Your host for this series is going to be Jimmy Buehler, pastor of Christ Community Church in Willmar, Minnesota, Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina, and I'm Jon Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church here in Spring Hill, Tennessee.  
  
Jimmy, tell us a little bit about this series and what it is that we're trying to accomplish.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: This is an introductory episode into covenant theology. As we think about the structure and framework of the Bible, Christians universally believe that God is a covenant-keeping God. As we look throughout the Old Testament, we see the Abrahamic covenant, the Noahic covenant, and so on. What we want to present today is an idea of what is known as covenant theology. Our churches, or the three churches represented here today, all subscribe to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. In chapter seven of that confession, you begin to see language around God's covenant like the covenant of grace, the covenant of works, or the covenant of redemption. These categories might seem foreign to you. If you're new to this, this is what we are going to spend time looking at in this series. We will look at it from our perspective and understanding of Reformed covenant theology.  
  
Justin Perdue: We want to be really clear that when we talk about covenant theology, we don't just mean that there are covenants in the Bible; we don't just mean that God works through covenants. When we talk about covenant theology, what we are describing is a framework through which we understand and interpret Scripture.  
  
We talk a lot about the redemptive-historical framework of the Bible. As we move along in this series, it's going to become increasingly clear that redemptive-historical framework and a covenantal framework go together. In one sense, covenant theology, along with the redemptive-historical piece, is like a map to help people orient themselves in Scripture to understand that we can open up to almost any text and know where north, south, east, and west are. Where am I in this great story and plan of redemption that God is accomplishing?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: When a lot of people approach the Bible, it can be very dense and overwhelming. We always have to remember that we're dealing with ancient texts that cover thousands of years of history, specifically redemptive history. It is of utmost importance because the Bible gives us an understanding of how God relates to man and how God has sent Christ into the world to redeem sinners. Covenant theology gives us a proper framework not just to understand church and the Christian life, but it gives us a proper framework to understand the Bible in its totality.  
  
Justin Perdue: It gives us a proper framework to understand redemption.  
  
We talk about rest, assurance, peace, and the sufficiency of Jesus all the time. All of these are absolutely linked to covenant theology.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Everyone that goes through the Bible has a framework or a structure. It may not be one that has been handed down to you from the church historically, but maybe it is one that you have formulated yourself. If you've been born and raised in a Christian evangelical church, then most likely you have some understanding of the Trinity. Whenever you read a passage that says, God, Yahweh, Jesus, or Holy Spirit, you automatically place that text into a Trinitarian framework. You never read it outside of that; you always interpret them as not being three separate Gods: this is one God that is a Trinitarian God. That's a structure that you seem to place upon the text, but it's not that you place the structure upon it - it's derivative of all of Scripture and then interpreted in that way. When people say you placed it upon the text, what that means is we're taking the entire structure of Trinitarian theology and then using that to interpret Scripture.  
  
Justin Perdue: There's something known as the word-concept fallacy where, for example, people will object to covenant theology because certain terms like the covenant of works are not specifically in Scripture. The word Trinity is not in Scripture, either. Even some things like church membership - that many churches practice - are not in Scripture, but the principles are there.  
  
What we are trying to do is reason from the text. When we talk about covenant theology, it's not something that we are laying down and imposing upon the text - it's something that comes up out of the text. It helps us to understand and clearly summarize what is contained in all of Scripture: how God works and how God redeems.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: What would be helpful now is if we move into the question of where this understanding of covenant theology came from.  
  
Justin, you have some historical insight into this whole idea of covenant theology. Why don't you kind of give us a little bit of that?  
  
Justin Perdue: Many will be familiar with the Protestant Reformation. Most of us would agree that it began most substantially in 1517\. In the centuries that follow the Reformation, as doctrine is being hammered out, discussed, and debated, there are various groups that flow out of the Reformation. One of those groups is understood as Reformed Christianity, and underneath that banner of Reformed Christians, you have several different kinds. You have Presbyterians who held to the Westminster Confession that was written in the 1640s. You had Independents or Congregationalists who held to what was called the Savoy Declaration of 1658\. Then you also have Particular Baptists who held to the 1689 London Baptist Confession.  
  
The thing about all of those people is that all of them understood themselves to be covenantal; all of them understood themselves to be Reformed and to be within that covenantal Reformed heritage. They understood each other to be covenantal and so there was a lot of unity when it came to covenant theology.  
  
Properly understood, Reformed theology is covenant theology. We have so much in common with other brothers and sisters who might not hold to the exact same confession that we do, but we are confessing and believing in teaching the same high-level truths about covenant theology. Of course, there are going to be some distinctions and that's fine. We all come from the same place and we all hail from the Reformation.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What we can do now is give an overview of what the rest of the series is going to be about so that you have a glossary. When we reference things, you will easily understand what it is that we mean.  
  
Let's start with where we're going to begin in our next episode, which is the covenant of redemption. Jimmy, what does the covenant of redemption mean?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Keeping in tune that this is not something that we are placing upon a text, but something that we are deriving from the text, opening your Bible to Ephesians 1 would be really helpful as we think about the covenant of redemption - specifically, Ephesians 1:3-14.  
  
When we think about the covenant of redemption, it is the formal agreement within the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This formal agreement was made before the foundation of the world to redeem God's elect. We see this very clearly in Ephesians 1: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." What we see arising out of the text is seemingly an agreement; there is some sort of idea within the Godhead. We see later in verse 13 and 14 that the Holy Spirit is the One who seals that adoption in Christ for us. There is some sort of agreement made before the foundation of the world that God would redeem sinners.  
  
Something that is simple and helpful is God the Father has planned redemption, God the Son has accomplished redemption, and God the Holy Spirit is who applies redemption. That is a simple and succinct understanding of the covenant of redemption.  
  
Justin Perdue: There are other texts that are helpful when it comes to the covenant of redemption, or what is sometimes referred to as the pactum salutis. You have 2 Timothy 1:9 where Paul talks about how God has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but because of His own purpose and grace which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began. Right. Titus 1:2 talks about the hope of eternal life, which Paul is writing about, "which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began." We have this language of the eternity past and God deciding on something. You will hear Jesus in John 17 speak of this a lot in his prayer to the Father. Jesus talks about the relationship that existed between him and the Father before the world began, and the plans that they had - glory and love - and even the end goal that Christ's people would be with him to see the glory that the Father gave him before the ages began. It is that language that we're picking up on this covenant amongst the Godhead - this agreement amongst the Godhead in eternity past to save a people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is a great example of knowing how to read your Bible from back to front. Generally, we start with Genesis and we read forward from the beginning of the story - which is fine. However, the end of the story has come to us; the book has been completed and handed to us. What the Reformation has done to help explain the Old Testament is by looking at it through the lenses of the New Testament. A great example of that is if you start in Genesis and read forward, you would see the whole story unfold until you get to the Book of Revelation. At a certain point, you're going to hit Ephesians and hear this language of redemption happening before Genesis started. Then you go back and read it again with the lens of redemption, this time knowing that before the world began, the Trinity made a covenant. This is covenantal language. Now you're going to read the whole story with an entirely different lens because it is being unfolded in light of what happened at the end.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Everybody reads and interprets Scripture through lenses. It is impossible to go through the Bible and take it for what it is without reading anything into it. We need to be very clear that the greatest interpreter of Scripture is Scripture itself. These ideas concerning covenants arise out of Scripture in that the New Testament tells us how to read the book.  
  
Justin Perdue: We understand the Old Testament in light of the New Testament. A man named Nehemiah Coxe, who lived in the 17th century, explained it best. He said that the best interpreter of the Old Testament is the Holy Spirit speaking to us in the New Testament. We interpret Scripture with Scripture, and we allow the apostles to teach us how to interpret the Old Testament. That is what covenant theology is.  
  
To think that we come to Scripture without any presuppositions or any kind of framework or system is completely naive, and frankly, ridiculous. We all have a system; we all have a framework. The question is, is your system any good or not? Is your framework any good or not? Where does it come from? What we're talking about is a framework that comes out of Scripture, that is faithful to the text, and that helps us understand the whole picture.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We will get more into this as the series goes on. Even Jesus, when he was on the Emmaus road, he says that the Law and the prophets were about him. Jesus is now interpreting. We are going to fit all that together. Once you understand that the framework of Scripture is the unfolding covenant that the Father made with the Son and will be applied by the Spirit, the question now is how does that happen?  
  
Justin Perdue: In one sense, all of Scripture is the unfolding of the accomplishment of the covenant of redemption.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It does feel strange to tell people to go to the New Testament first before reading the Old Testament. As an illustration, when the Old Testament writers were unfolding the history of Israel, it was almost like they were putting together a puzzle - only it was upside down. They saw the puzzle pieces and they were trying to connect them together, but they didn't really see the whole picture. The New Testament is basically someone handing you the box cover where there is a picture of the puzzle all pieced together. Now you get to go back and see how it all comes together. The covenant of redemption is the box cover.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Again, lest we think that this is foreign and that it is something that we are placing on Scripture, the one sermon we don't have in the Bible that all of us would probably like to hear is when Jesus was on the road to Emmaus. He was telling these guys how all of the Scriptures - the Law and the prophets - are about him.  
  
An understanding of terminology comes into need as we talk about types and shadows. When you read through the Old Testament, it is very easy to be confused with a lot of the obscure language and stories. Something that all of us emphasize is we constantly have to look at scripture in a unified whole. An easy illustration is when during the Exodus, we see the blood of the Passover lamb being wiped on the doorposts. If you were reading the Bible for the first time and you got to that part without any concept of who Christ is and what he came to accomplish, you might read that and think that it is very odd. What do we see later in the New Testament? How does John the Baptist introduce Christ? He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. What we see is that these types and shadows in the Old Testament come into further view and understanding in the New Testament.  
  
Justin Perdue: We will sometimes use the language of types and antitypes. Types reveal something greater in other than themselves, meaning they reveal ultimately the antitype. Antitypes are things that are greater, more ultimate, and are distinct from the types themselves. Types are things in and of themselves. Jimmy, your example is great: the Passover is a thing that in and of itself, and it happened in time, space, and history. It meant something for Israel. It pointed to something even greater to come: the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, would be shed and would be used. Then as God, the Father would look at that blood, it would cover the sins and the iniquity of God's people. We would then be passed over and saved. That is just one example of so many that we could use where it's a thing in and of itself, but it points to something greater that will come later in redemptive history that is ultimate.  
  
Jon Moffitt: An illustration I would use is when you sit down at a restaurant and they have pictures of their food. You're looking at a type of the food. What do they do with the menu after you order your food? In time later, they're going to bring you the antitype. You don't need the type anymore because you have the real substance.  
  
Justin Perdue: Also, the type finds its end and its fulfillment in the antitype. Once the antitype comes, the fulfillment comes, and the type is no longer needed other than to continue to help us understand the ultimate picture.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: This is the book of Hebrews. This is what the author or preacher of Hebrews or is saying to the church. As he's writing to Jewish believers, he says that all of the things they recognize in the Scriptures find their greater fulfillment in Christ. I think it was Tim Keller who famously coined the idea that Jesus is the truer and better insert-whatever-you-may about the Old Testament.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Part of covenant theology then, and understanding types, shadows, and antitype, is a concept called bicovenantalism, meaning two covenants. We understand that the covenant of redemption is what all of Scripture is about. How was that accomplished? It's accomplished through two covenants: the covenant of works and the covenant of grace. All of Scripture really falls under these two categories.  
  
In Genesis 3, we find Adam and Eve in the garden. They are given one rule.  
  
Justin Perdue: One prohibition. They're given things to do positively, but with one prohibition.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That prohibition is not to eat of a particular tree. God says to them that if they eat of that tree, they will die - we all know the story - they eat of the tree. In the covenant of works, the reason why they call it work is that if Adam had fulfilled this one prohibition and refrained from eating of the fruit, what he would have earned for himself and all of his descendants is eternity with God in the garden.  
  
Justin Perdue: In a consummated, redeemed, perfect state.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Forever. The reason why we use the word "earn" is because later on, Paul says that where Adam failed, Christ comes and succeeds. What you have throughout the rest of Scripture is this reference and pointing back to Adam's failure and the nature of his failure being passed down to his descendants.  
  
Justin Perdue: One of the other reasons we call it a covenant of works is because it is conditioned upon what man does. Had Adam positively done the things he was told to do and had he abstained from the one thing he was told not to do, all would be well forever. We would be with God in a perfect state, living in a perfect relationship with Him and with each other forever.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We see this clearly not only in Genesis, but Paul expounds on this very clearly in the book of Romans in chapter 5\. If you're new to covenant theology, you might say it doesn't seem right or fair. We always have to remind ourselves that as we relate to an infinite being, that is God, He is the one who sets the standards of how we relate to Him. As our confession states, it pleases God to relate to us through covenants. If God relates to us through Adam and the covenant of works, and you might think that that's unfair, then you're not going to like the covenant of grace.  
  
Justin Perdue: Because it is also not fair. The Bible is clear that not only are there covenants of works and grace, but there are two covenant heads or two federal heads (federal being another term for covenant in one sense), and those two covenant heads in Scripture are Adam and Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Another way of saying that is like a representative. A king is the representative of his people.  
  
Justin Perdue: Correct. A representative. That's why in Scripture, Paul will use the language of being "in Adam" or "in Christ". He does this in Romans 5 and in 1 Corinthians 15\. In Adam, all die; in Christ, all are made alive. There is that distinction between the two. Adam was given a covenant to fulfill that was conditioned upon his performance and he failed. So then the question,  
  
Jon Moffitt: Because he's the federal head or the representative, all now are guilty.  
  
Justin Perdue: Guilty, corrupt, and ruined.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: As Paul says, "As in one man's disobedience, all men died." It's so important to remember that when Adam sinned in the garden, we all sinned in the garden. We would have done the same thing. Nobody can look back at a pre-Genesis 3 world and say, "I wish I was there because I would have done it differently." The fact of the matter is no, actually, you would not have.  
  
Justin Perdue: The covenant of grace is different from the covenant of works. The covenant of works was conditioned upon Adam's obedience and performance. We could even just say it's conditioned upon man's obedience or performance. The covenant of grace is different in that it is not conditioned upon our performance - it is conditioned upon Christ and his work. In one sense, the covenant of grace simply is Jesus coming to fulfill the covenant of works that Adam failed in and broke. Then the merit, satisfaction, righteousness, and new creation inheritance that is Christ's is given to sinners by faith. It is not conditioned upon what we do - we receive what Christ has done.  
  
The covenant of grace is promised and revealed in Genesis 3\. When the fall occurs - sin enters the world, man falls, becomes ruined, and dies - in Genesis 3:15, God promises a Redeemer who will come; the seed of the woman who will come to crush the head of the snake and be the Redeemer.  
  
It's very clear that Adam and Eve understand something of that. Even the fact that Adam names Eve and understands that life is going to come. Then we see that the promise of the covenant of grace continues to be revealed more and more throughout the Old Testament. Finally, it is established and accomplished by Jesus in the new covenant. We'll talk more about the particulars of that but to understand that distinction between covenant of works and grace is important to start with, and then we'll unpack it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There are two things we need to unfold. We have already given the structure and now, there are two explanations we need to offer. One is promise versus covenant. It's like when someone says I'm a Christian - that could mean a hundred different things. What kind of Christianity are we talking about? The same thing can happen here. When we say covenant, what do we mean by it? Let's give a definition of covenant that will help wrap people's minds around covenant of works. The biggest argumentation for covenant of works, which we will give a full explanation to later on in the series, is that the word "covenant" was never used in the garden with Adam and Eve. Let's first define what covenant is and then that will help us explain why we would hold that position.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I'll leave some technical definition to you guys, but I want to share a little analogy. 10 years ago, in the month of June, I went to my wife and I made her a promise to remain faithful to her until our marriage day when that promise became fulfilled in that we became united in one flesh. As we think about the idea of promise and covenant, think of it in terms of a relationship today: in terms of engagement in marriage. Engagement is a promise of a formal relationship. Nobody stays engaged for their entire relationship. What is the point of the engagement? You are engaged to be married. As we think about promise and covenant, it's the same idea.  
  
Justin Perdue: With a covenant, you have multiple parties and those parties are identifiable. There are commitments that the parties make and there are sanctions attached to the agreement as well.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There are different kinds of covenants in the Bible. As an example, the covenant that God made with Noah between two parties: between God and the world. There is a sign, which is the bow. But in that covenant, there's only one who is active and that's God. That would be a different kind of covenant. Then you have covenants that God makes between Israel and Himself. What kind of covenant would that be?  
  
Justin Perdue: There are two actors in it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right, but it's conditional. There's a condition. The Noahic covenant has no condition. The Mosaic, when He gives him the Law and tells him to obey it and then the covenant will remain between the two of them.  
  
Justin Perdue: There are unconditional covenants, there are conditional covenants, and there are also unconditional promises.  
  
We understand that the unconditional promise of the covenant of grace is revealed in Genesis 3:15, and then throughout the Old Testament in various ways. There are conditional covenants made in the old covenant that we'll unpack more as we go along. Then there is the unconditional covenant, or the covenant of grace, that we understand to be established and accomplished by Jesus in the new covenant. It has nothing to do with us; we don't contribute a thing; it's all about what Jesus has done and we simply receive that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: For a lot of Christianity, covenant theology was only really explained when we were talking about Noah and somewhat of a little bit of an understanding between Moses. Even going through Bible college, I didn't even understand the Abrahamic covenant and the significance of it. There are many who are listening to this thinking that the word "covenant" is so foreign and strange to them.  
  
Justin Perdue: We've got several episodes coming for people to get more information on these various topics that we are opening up. Maybe we can land the plane here in the remaining minutes and talk with people about why covenant theology matters for them. If somebody is listening and wanting help in further understanding what this means for them and why they should care about covenant theology, what does this mean for them on a Tuesday morning or a Friday evening or when I'm having a bad day? How is covenant theology helpful?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something I like to remind our church consistently is that one, God is a covenant-keeping God, and two, God is a promise-keeping God. As we think about our Christian life, we are often drawn to the questions, "What do I need to do for Jesus today? How do I maintain my relationship with Jesus today?" The most airtime that we gave in this episode was to the covenant of redemption. I invite you to read Ephesians 1 and sit on it for a long time. I want you to be in Paul's seat. Ephesians is a letter that he wrote from prison and he had some time to sit down and think. What did he want to tell people? He wanted to give people this unbreakable assurance that they are saved and redeemed; this is not based on who they are, what they've done, how they've sinned, or how they've been good or bad, but rather they are saved and safe based off of the eternal promise and covenant made between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the covenant of redemption.  
  
The more we understand it, the more we see it throughout the entire narrative of the Bible. We have increased assurance in our God that when He says something, it is true. When He says that we are forgiven, we can bank on it based on what we see in the covenant of redemption.  
  
Justin Perdue: Here on Theocast, we talk a lot about resting in Christ. We talk about the sufficiency of Jesus, and how he's done everything that we need in order to be saved and have peace with God. We talk a lot about assurance. How can we know that we're safe? How can we know that things are not just okay for me today, but they're going to be okay for me forever? Covenant theology is inextricably linked to that and that will become increasingly clear over this series. In seeing what Jesus accomplished in the covenant of grace, by fulfilling the covenant of works, in order to accomplish the covenant of redemption, there is certainty and a rock to put under our feet. It helps us understand how there is no room left for anything else to be contributed. Jesus has done this and because of that, I'm in him and I'm safe. That matters more than anything for sinners in a fallen world.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Our goal is not for you to gain head knowledge or for you to just know more about the Bible. Because we understand the Bible to unfold in this way, it brings the entire Bible to relevancy and it brings it to life. Every verse applies to our life because it's the unfolding, promise-keeping God who was faithful in the old and will be faithful in the new.  
  
We will go ahead and move on to our next session. Thank you for listening.  
  
**[Full series: Introduction to Covenant Theology](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/intro-to-covenant-theology/)**

---

### MEMBERS: Did It Matter How Jesus Died? (Transcript)

*Published: October 14, 2020 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-did-it-matter-how-jesus-died-transcript*
*Tags: Atonement, Biblical Theology, Covenant Theology, purpose of the bible, Redemptive Historical*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-did-it-matter-how-jesus-died/)

### **Recommended Resources:**

* [Biblical Theology (Geerhardus Vos)](http://amzn.to/2viExKq)
* [Far As The Curse Is Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption (Michael Williams)](http://amzn.to/2uWmXec)
* [The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom (Samuel Renihan)](https://press.founders.org/shop/the-mystery-of-christ-his-covenant-and-his-kingdom/)
* [Introduction To Covenant Theology (Theocast)](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/intro-to-covenant-theology/)
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. As always, we want to thank you, our members, for your generous support and frankly, just for your partnership with us. We've been transitioning into using more of that language of partnership and it's intentional because that's how we view you. As our partners in ministry, you are making possible everything that goes on here behind the microphones. Everything that is written, all the messages and good content that is shared in a number of different platforms only happen because of the support of our membership. We are thankful. We are hopeful for what God has in store for the future of Theocast. Continue to partner with us in the ways that you have been, continue to spread the word about Theocast and the content we provide, and encourage others to partner with us as well. We want to see this ministry grow in every good way, and we want to see more people resting in Jesus.  
  
Now we're going to turn to this conversation that we're having. In the regular podcast, we were answering the question, in one sense, of why Jesus died on the cross and why was that necessary. It was an exercise in redemptive-historical theology with Christ at the center, with the glory of Christ in the work of redemption being the main point and the focus of Scripture.  
  
Let's have a conversation, you and me, in this safe space with our members. Why in the world would people ever object to the glory of Christ and the work of redemption being the point of the Bible? Why in the world would people ever want to turn it into something else? What's underneath and behind that way of thinking in that logic?  
  
Jon Moffitt: The logic behind it is that we aren't taking the actual words of the Old Testament literally, or even the New Testament, but of course this happens. Everyone can say the New Testament is about Jesus because that's when Jesus arrives, but in the Old Testament, Jesus is shown in shadows and types for sure. Where the Old Testament explicitly references Jesus is where they would agree that it is Jesus, but I would say that they use the same interpretive model we do. Isaiah 53 doesn't explicitly say this is Jesus, but anybody who has read any kind of biblical theology or systematic theology knows that Isaiah 53 is about Jesus.  
  
Justin Perdue: Can I tell a story? I can say this because it's the members' area. I'm not going to get into a lot of detail, but this is just to illustrate some of the controversy that can come up over things like this. I was on staff for a period of time at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C. where Mark Dever is the senior pastor. John MacArthur came to be a guest preacher one Sunday for us while I was on staff. John was an incredibly gracious and charitable man toward me. I always appreciated his interaction and have profited from him in a number of ways as many have. Mark and John are friends—they have a good relationship. One of the things that we did in DC is every Sunday night, we would gather as a staff and review the day in terms of the service, the sermon, and other various things. We talk about it together for our profit and benefit.  
  
So John MacArthur comes and is going to preach on a Sunday morning at Capitol Hill, and he's going to preach Isaiah 53\. He gets up in the pulpit and sets the table. Capitol Hill and Mark Dever definitely have a redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture in a general sense. Even if some of the finer points are not exactly everything we say here, they're generally where we are. So MacArthur gets in the pulpit and says, "Many of you think that Isaiah 53 is about Jesus, but I'm going to tell you right now that it's not—it's about Israel."  
  
I thought half the church was about ready to get up and walk out the room. I looked around at people's faces and we're all just horrified. We're like, "Oh my Lord. What is happening?" But then here's the great irony, Jon, to your point: having said that unnecessarily, I think, and being provocative, MacArthur then commenced to preach a sermon that was basically about Jesus. Brother, help us understand. That evening, when we talked together, MacArthur was gracious enough to come and do a service review with us. We had a very good, honest conversation about that and about what he said and about why we disagreed. It was good.  
  
I had no intention of sharing that, but what you said just made me think of it. I'll never forget it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'd love to hear that sermon. I'm pretty sure that John believes that in the end, it is a prophecy referencing Jesus.  
  
Justin Perdue: He did. But he tried to say it's not about Jesus and it's about Israel. Even John and his progressive dispensational conviction cannot get away from the fact that this is obviously about Christ, because that's what you end up saying.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What we're getting at is that they are afraid of mystifying the text. They're afraid of reading things back into the text. I appreciate it. Because the accusation is we find Jesus under every rock in the Old Testament. That's not fair because that's not actually what we're doing. We're actually using the New Testament to help us go back and interpret. We're using their language when they say this is what is meant by this. We are using the interpretive model that the Holy Spirit gives the New Testament writers. Sam Renihan in his book says that it is demanded of us to read Scripture in this way. It's not that it's an option, it's the option.  
  
I would say that I believe in a grammatical-historical understanding of Scripture, meaning that I look at the grammar, I look at the word construct, and I look at the original intention of the author as he wrote to his readers. I believe it in its history. But that doesn't mean that is the final illustration and final meaning of that text, because Jesus then takes the serpent in the wilderness and uses it as a fuller meaning and an explanation of the original meaning and explanation.  
  
Justin Perdue: And that's just one example of literally dozens of explicit examples, if not hundreds.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. "I am the bread that came down from heaven."  
  
Justin Perdue: All of that. We could just go on and on. That's just from the list of Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Paul talks about how they drank of Christ when Moses struck the rock in the Old Testament. Someone will say we're reading that into the text. I would say no, I'm reading you Paul; Paul read that into the text, or I would say Paul interpreted that in the text because Christ is the one who is leading Israel because Christ is the salvation of Israel. Israel is leading us to Christ and Israel is being saved by Christ. These are really important interpretive models because they help us make sure that we get the point.  
  
My biggest struggle with a lot of interpretive models that are out there is that a lot of times people don't even realize they have one. Justin and I just did a whole podcast on this called _Is Your Theological System Any Good?_ Today is an illustration of how to use the right interpretive model. It comes on the heels of this is the system and this is how you use it. It's the plain and obvious way of using Scripture because it is pointing you to the purpose of it. What ends up happening is in our sinful hearts and our desires, pietism, which is in all of us, we want to prove to God that we are worthy of being His child. We are worthy of our salvation. We end up reading the text in this way where we can see men who have done noble and heroic things in the Bible: Daniel being on his knees and praying, David standing up to the Goliath, and all of that. We use that and say, "I, too, will stand up for God." The narrative of Scripture becomes about me and not Jesus.  
  
Justin Perdue: We don't need any help trying to make everything about us—that's just what we do naturally. If I'm going to say it in a provocative way, it's just like Spurgeon said about Pelagianism about how we don't need to be taught Pelagianism because we get it in our mother's milk. The same is true of pietism—we do not need to be taught pietism. We do not need to be taught how to turn everything in Scripture into something about us, because that's just what we do. It's as natural as breathing. Our default position is this very self-centered pietistic perspective that makes us the point. That's why it happens all the time. I may come back to that in just a minute.  
  
Just a couple of comments before we leave the textual stuff that you were mentioning, Jon, where sometimes the charges raised against us is that we're not taking the Bible literally, or we're not looking at history and grammar and all that—and I think you refuted that.  
  
One thing that I would say about interpreting the Bible wholesale, and this is true from Genesis through Revelation, is there are a number of different genres contained within Scripture and that matters in our interpretation of them. There are a lot of different kinds of language in Scripture that would matter for our understanding. A lot of times, when we read things from a redemptive-historical perspective, when we read things from a type of logical perspective in the Old Testament, people will say we're not taking the Bible as literally as we need to take it. To which I would say that I could come up with a million illustrations of how they do the exact same thing in different places.  
  
For example, when Jesus says in John 10 that he is the door, I trust you understand that he is speaking in metaphor. You don't literally think he's a door. "I am the bread." "You need to eat my flesh and drink my blood." I don't assume that you think that Jesus is encouraging people to cannibalism.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In the context, they did take him literally.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. There is a metaphorical figurative meaning, dare I say, in so many of the things contained in Scripture. Again, members' area, safe space: frankly, it is naive, absurd, and you demonstrate a lack of understanding. You demonstrate that you probably haven't read very much or thought very much about hermeneutics and how to apply and interpret the Scripture when you just make a blanket statement like, "You're just not taking the Bible literally." It's like you are demonstrating your lack of depth of understanding in trying to think through really serious and sincere things that people have wrestled with for millennia in terms of how to understand and interpret Scripture rightly.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To add to that, I think those of the dispensational camp or people who think they have no interpretive model but the Bible is to be interpreted literally, I agree with you—I think you do and I think I do. The question is are you using all of Scripture to interpret Scripture literally as it was intended to be interpreted? If someone says, "I'm just reading the Bible and I'm taking it at face value," that's fine. But do you understand how and why the Bible is structured like that? For instance, when I say it's raining cats and dogs, Justin isn't running outside, looking at splattered animal bodies all over the place. He understands it's raining a lot. The Bible does this. We were just talking about curse and tree. There are idioms and references and types and shadows.  
  
If you're going to read it literally, you have to read it in the context literally where when there's something that's being referenced, you have to allow that. The problem is we aren't trained to read the Bible in this way. We think we just need to sit down and through the power of the Spirit, we'll read what's there and fully understand it. Maybe if you've been trained on understanding how context works, as well as different literature works, narrative, and poetry. I would say, to the defense of my dispensational brothers and Presbyterian brothers whom I love dearly, all three of us along with our brothers claim to read the Bible literally. Let's not hurl that against each other anymore. It's just not fair.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's not a helpful thing to say.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No, because what you're saying is, "I don't take the Bible literally. I don't take it seriously."  
  
Justin Perdue: Or, "You're not really submitting yourself to the word of God."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. The other thing is, "You're allowing the authority of confessions to dictate how you read Scripture." Anyone who reads Scripture has something that they are presupposing on the texts, which we talked about in our last episode.  
  
Justin Perdue: What we talked about last week is the question, "Where does your system come from? Is it any good?" We would contend that this system, this redemptive-historical Christocentric, typological way of understanding the Bible, was actually taken from Scripture. It comes up out of the text. It's not something that we're imposing upon the text; it comes out of it. I think we've demonstrated that in some ways, even today, and we've talked about it in past episodes.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think it's healthy. It's good for us. I'm in constant conversations with my dispensational friends on trying to further understand their point of view of Scripture. I think these are the kinds of things that will exalt Christ. If we're trying to get down to the bottom of the text for the glory of Christ, I don't care to be right for the sake of being right. People say, "Well, don't you care about the truth?" Yeah, of course.  
  
Justin Perdue: I know we've been a little bit here, there, and everywhere with this, but I'm going back to one other thing that is in the text. In particular, I have in view our dispensationalist friends, but certainly also people that read things in the Old Testament and want to take the Bible on their own terms and are not quite sure what to do with it. When God will say things to Israel through Moses, for example, and underneath the covenantal frameworks like the Abrahamic covenant and the Mosaic covenant are ruling the day, he says things like for example, "This statute is forever. It's for all your generations." People look at that and they think this is going to last forever. Then whatever is happening with Jesus comes in after that, so it must not be the end of this. They're just trying to figure out how to understand Scripture.  
  
How would we understand this forever language? This is again where we have to understand the Bible in terms of its pattern of fulfillment. How all of the promises of God find their yes and amen in Christ. In particular, there are certain things that find their fulfillment in Jesus in such a way that they cease to be once Christ comes on the scene. Exhibit A is the sacrificial system. Another is I can't tell you how many times I've had people ask me, "Shouldn't we be celebrating the Passover? God says that we're to do it forever." We do in that Jesus is our Passover Lamb, and Jesus instituted a meal that fulfilled that Passover meal. We do it every time we come to the table. We're feeding on Christ by faith in his substitutionary work in our place. We look forward to the wedding feast of the Lamb in the new heavens and the new earth. That's what the Passover was about. It's here, and there's a greater reality yet to be at the right after the resurrection, but this is the kind of stuff that we have to help people understand because people read that the Passover's forever and we don't do it anymore. Are we in sin? No, we're not.  
  
I just want to give people the benefit of the doubt and be charitable that there are a lot of well-meaning Christians who have read something like that and don't know what it means. How does this square with the practices that we have in the church? This is the duty of pastors: to teach the Scripture. This is why confessions, the rule of faith, and the history of interpretation help us because we're able to do theology with people who have been long dead and we together understand Scripture.  
  
Anyway, I hope all of this has been helpful for people to wrestle through this in their own minds.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you haven't listened to our covenant theology series yet, please do so. It should be available now for everyone. You can listen to it on the private podcast feed or go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members and on that page are all of our classes and all of that information. It's a five-part series that Justin, Jimmy, and I have been dialoguing and working on. We wanted the simplest introduction possible that we could think of. This is our attempt to help you get the foundation on covenant theology so that you can start building on it.  
  
Justin Perdue: Avail yourselves of those resources. We hope they're helpful to you.  
  
Thank you again for your partnership with us. We're encouraged by you. We're encouraged to see the membership continue to grow. We pray that it happens more so that we can do more things with and for Theocast and for our members. We hope to see this message continue to spread to as many people as possible.  
  
I've enjoyed the conversation today. I have been edified in the Lord, Jesus Christ, thinking about why he died on the cross for us and what he has accomplished in our place. I hope that's true for you, our members, and that you've been edified and encouraged in Christ as well. We will speak with you again next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/did-it-matter-how-jesus-died-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/did-it-matter-how-jesus-died/)

---

### Did It Matter How Jesus Died? (Transcript)

*Published: October 14, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/did-it-matter-how-jesus-died-transcript*
*Tags: Atonement, Biblical Theology, Covenant Theology, purpose of the bible, Redemptive Historical*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/did-it-matter-how-jesus-died/)**

### **Recommended Resources:**

* [Biblical Theology (Geerhardus Vos)](http://amzn.to/2viExKq)
* [Far As The Curse Is Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption (Michael Williams)](http://amzn.to/2uWmXec)
* [The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom (Samuel Renihan)](https://press.founders.org/shop/the-mystery-of-christ-his-covenant-and-his-kingdom/)
* [Introduction To Covenant Theology (Theocast)](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/intro-to-covenant-theology/)
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Let me ask you a question: why is it that Jesus had to die on a cross? Why is it that he didn't die via execution in some other way? Why wasn't he stoned? Why is it that he was hung on a cross to be killed? If you're not sure how you would answer that question, today's podcast is for you.  
  
This is a good follow-up to last week's episode where we thought about theological systems and frameworks that help us to understand and interpret the Bible. Today is a practical exercise in thinking about Scripture from a redemptive-historical perspective with Christ at the center.  
  
In the members' podcast, we consider why it is that we tend to interpret the Bible in so many other ways besides this way. We hope that this conversation is clarifying for you. We hope that it is encouraging for you and that you are edified in the Lord Jesus as you listen. Stay tuned.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the things that we love here at Theocast is a redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture. Often when Justin, Jimmy, and I get together and we start talking about what shapes and forms Theocast, or even what has shaped and formed Reformed theology for hundreds of years now, that is often what all of you love. Recently in the Facebook group, someone said, "I'm so new to all of this. Where do I start? Where do I go?" They love what they're hearing but they want to know the foundation behind it. They want to know what leads people to rest and what causes it.  
  
One of the things that we want to do today is practically show you how it works from Scripture. Instead of talking about it in theory, we're going to walk through the Bible to show you how a redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture unfolds and how types and shadows in the purpose of Scripture, as well as mystery in the New Testament, all play together. We're going to do that through a question. I'm going to ask a question and then Justin and I are going to show you how the Bible answers this question.  
  
Here's the question: did Jesus have to die on a cross? Could he have died by hanging, being stoned, being burned at the stake, or being torn apart? There are all different ways that the Romans used to kill people back then. Did Jesus, according to the Bible, have to die on a cross?  
  
In order to answer that we're going to use biblical theology/redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture.  
  
Justin Perdue: To be redundantly clear, in a very simple way, the question is why did Jesus die on a cross and not some other way? What is the significance of all that? We're going to put the tools to work this morning and do a fly over through major themes in the Old Testament, and we'll think about how God has been working from eternity past essentially—but God has been working throughout all of human history—to accomplish the redemption of His people through Jesus. We will see that very practically today in a way that we trust is going to be edifying and encouraging for us as we talk about it, and also we trust for listeners as they listen to it. We're going to see how Christ was the point all along and how God has been purposefully working, even throughout redemptive history prior to Christ coming, He purposefully worked for Jesus to show up on the scene and do exactly what he did. Also, all of the providences and the circumstantial realities mean something. There's nothing arbitrary in how God went about doing this.  
  
Then as we see, hopefully today, one more facet of the plan of God in redemption, and the work of Christ in our place, we're going to then consider what that means for us in the Christian life. Then we're going to think about what it means for the church, and what it means for preaching. Hopefully that's the kind of boots-on-the-ground takeaway that will be helpful for people too.  
  
Let's talk about the question. Jon, why don't you get us started in thinking through some things from the Old Testament?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Specifically in the Old Testament, Paul uses this reference of what's called a mystery: that the things of Christ were hidden and seen in shadows and types, but they weren't fully revealed to us until the New Testament. What Paul is telling us is that there's a mystery behind it.  
  
There are events that unfold and instructions given that, to their original context and to the original readers, had their purposes and meaning. But God through the Holy Spirit ends up using it to further explain redemption and expose to us the purposes of Jesus Christ. One of the things that we miss is the depth and the glory of the cross because we don't understand how the Old Testament gives us the depth of our sin, the sovereignty of God, and what it really means to be cursed.  
  
There are two things we're going to look at this morning that the Bible uses constantly to push the story and answer this question of why Jesus had to die on a cross: a curse and a tree. We're going to start in Genesis 3.  
  
For the sake of time, we're not going to read all of it, but in Genesis 3, God says, "Do not eat of the tree." If they do eat of the tree, He promises a curse upon them, and that curse is death. Do not eat or else you will die. Throughout the Bible, a curse signifies a separation from God and that the blessings and the protection of God are removed. If we go to Genesis 3, you will see that in its context, there's the curse upon the serpent. You also are told that the death that's promised to them is sustained: there's a spiritual death and a physical death. Then He gives two smaller curses: one to Eve and one to Adam. One is pain in childbirth, and the other is thorns and thistles will grow out of the ground—which is a symbol of the curse—and we'll have to work for our food. We'll have to labor for it.  
  
The pain and suffering that we are in today are to remind us not just the temporal curse, but also of the ultimate curse that we are under. This language of curse and the symbolism of the tree—it's not the tree's fault, of course, but the disobedience of Adam and Eve. These two themes are seen at the very beginning of the story, at the very beginning of creation.  
  
Justin Perdue: As we progress from the garden of Eden throughout redemptive history, we see several other things that would point us in this direction. We don't have time to survey all of them. Jon, do you want to make any comments about even the Passover before I reference Deuteronomy?  
  
Jon Moffitt: I do. There are a couple of other things that the New Testament will use in reference and you will see curse and tree again. For instance, you've got the 10 plagues in the exodus in Egypt. In the last one, God says, "I'm going to come and kill the firstborn of every household." Firstborn is an interesting reference. To Israel, He says, "I will do this to you unless you sacrifice a perfect lamb, take its blood, and paint it over the doorposts. If you do that, then I will pass over you." Meaning that the curse of death will not fall off on your home.  
  
Justin Perdue: It will not fall on you because it has fallen on that perfect substitute in your place.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. You have curse, you have death, and you have the application of it upon the doorpost. This theme is used as they celebrate Passover. This theme is being used and referenced for the rest of Israel's existence as a nation.  
  
Justin Perdue: Numbers 21 is a great passage. Jesus references this in John 3 when he speaks to Nicodemus—and we'll get to the New Testament understandings of these later. Many may know that the Israelites are grumbling yet again against the Lord and God, in judgment upon their sin and their grumbling, sends upon them a curse. He judges them. He sends what the writer, Moses, calls fiery serpents that are biting the people and people are dying as they're being bitten by these snakes. The people cry out for deliverance effectively so God tells Moses to fashion a snake out of bronze and to lift it up on a pole. When this snake is lifted up and the people look to it, they are saved. We read it in Numbers 21:4 and following.  
  
A very significant piece there. It had its immediate purpose that people would be delivered from that judgment and curse of those snakes coming and biting them so they're dying, but obviously, it had more substantial meaning that would be coming. We're trying to help people see that this is how Scripture works. This is how a redemptive-historical understanding of theology works. There is immediate fulfillment. There is something that happens in its immediate context, but it's pointing to something that is different and greater.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I don't think there is a mistake when Jesus says in John 3, "As the serpent was raised in the wilderness so much the Son of Man." Jesus references himself even later on in Matthew as the one who will be cursed and will be crucified. These symbols are being used in the Old Testament for their purposes. What they're doing is they're pointing out this road of helping you understand that when Jesus dies on a cross, it's not just some random Jew who got in trouble with the Romans and ended up dying on a cross. The Old Testament is showing us that there's this flow in helping us understand that there is a curse because of the tree. These two symbols are being constantly used because they're the promise given to Eve that one will come and crush the head of the serpent. You're constantly seeing this language going forward.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even the language of being lifted up is something that Jesus picks up on not only in John 3 but also in John 12: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." It's the purpose of God that this is what Christ would do, this is how he would die, and this is how he would accomplish redemption.  
  
As we come to Deuteronomy 21, there are not insignificant verses there. In verses 22 and 23, Moses tells the people of Israel that if you execute a man for breaking the Law, for committing a crime punishable by death, you execute him and then you hang him on a tree but you are not to leave him there overnight because anyone who is hanged on a tree is cursed. We have again those two big themes or motifs of a curse and a tree, and in particular, being hanged on a tree is representative of being cursed. This is a big deal theologically.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Even at the last part of the verse there, it says not to leave him up there but to take him down before sunset. This is significant.  
  
Justin Perdue: It would happen that the followers of Christ and Joseph of Arimathea in particular would remove Christ from the cross before sundown.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Now, I will tell you that Justin and I have not made these conclusions just by being able to read the Old Testament and looking forward. What has helped us make these connections is reading the New Testament and noting when it points back and says, "See here..." Paul tells us in Ephesians, and even in Colossians, that the mystery of Christ was hidden in the Old Testament, but is now being revealed.  
  
Even in the New Testament, the New Testament believers struggled with the revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus himself is standing before the disciples and they don't even understand what he's about to do, being lifted up on the cross.  
  
Justin Perdue: Absolutely not. It's very clear throughout the earthly ministry of Christ that the disciples understand some things, but there are so many things that they don't yet understand. Even after Jesus is crucified and resurrected, the Emmaus Road account in Luke 24 is epic where he's telling the disciples about the Scripture and what was written about him because they were so confused by what had happened. They thought this man was something and now he's dead. Everybody is talking about these events and Jesus goes, "What are you talking about?" They respond by asking if he has not heard what has happened in recent days and all that. Then Jesus begins to tell them, beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, all the things that were written concerning himself. Was it not written that the Christ would have to suffer and die, and that he would rise?  
  
We're taking our cue from Jesus and the apostles. We are interpreting the Old Testament in light of the New Testament, and as has been said by many people before us, the best interpreter of the Old Testament is the Holy Spirit speaking to us in the New Testament. That is how we do redemptive-historical theology. That is how we appropriately and responsibly interpret all of the Bible in light of its main point and in light of what God intends it to reveal.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Now what we need to do is go through and show in the New Testament where Paul puts the stamp on why Jesus is on the cross. Galatians 3: what is Paul dealing with? He's dealing with those who want to go back underneath the Law. He even says earlier, "Cursed be everyone who does not keep the whole Law." We can all say that every single human being from the beginning of the world, Romans 5, because death has passed to all men because all sinned, Galatians 3:10 tells us that if you do not keep the whole Law, you are under this curse. There is this language of curse being used: you are the cursed person; we are all cursed.  
  
Justin Perdue: He cites Deuteronomy 27 and says, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. Then he gets to verse 13, which is where we took all of that time to explain to you what's going on. He says, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us." Then he quotes Deuteronomy, "For it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.'" So the reason Jesus had to die by death and be hung on a tree is because he was taking the place that we deserved, the curse in the garden that was put on Adam and Eve because of their disobedience of eating of the tree. Jesus is now suffering on a tree. Deuteronomy even says it. God has instituted this for the people of Israel to say the worst sinners are those who hang on the tree, and he's saying he is taking our place in shame and in separation under the curse.  
  
Justin Perdue: He was forsaken by God for us. In one sense, he was forsaken by God so that we never would be. What does he say on the cross as he is hanging there? "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus has become the cursed one. He has become the forsaken one. To speak even in the language of Proverbs, he has become the foolish one in the place of fools such as we. We see how Christ is accomplishing everything that God had set up for him to accomplish. Everything that we lost in Adam is now ours in Christ.  
  
Another verse that is also very helpful is 1 Peter 2:24 where Peter, again to make this explicit connection, says, "He himself," speaking of Jesus, "bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds, you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." So there again, he bore our sins in his body on the tree. We get the major themes, not only of the curse and the tree, and how Jesus became a curse for us because of our sins, but we get that clear language and implication of substitution. He took what wasn't his, namely our sin, and bore it and became a curse for us so that we might—to use the language of Paul—become the righteousness of God, and—to use the language of Peter—so that we might die to sin and live the righteousness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just to quote a couple of other passages where Peter does, I think, make the same conclusion as we. Acts 2:23: "This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men." Here you see God's plan for Christ to be the cursed one. Remember that the whole phrase of Jesus saying, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" means being cursed of God is to be separated from him, to be completely away. This is what happened in the garden; Adam and Eve became separated from the presence of God. Through the story of the Old Testament, God is formulating and shaping, He is going to make happen this plan that Jesus becomes the cursed one on the tree. Acts 5:30, "The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree." This is the language that Peter is using to describe what is going on. By God's will, Jesus became the cursed one on the tree.  
  
Justin Perdue: So this is Acts 13:27; this is the apostle Paul in Antioch speaking. He is talking about what's happened with respect to Jesus: "For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him Christ nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed." They end up having to use Rome in order to accomplish the execution of Christ. Paul goes on, "And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead . . ." He continues to go on to talk about what has been accomplished and how Jesus has accomplished for us what could never be accomplished through Moses. He concludes this kind of message with, "Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses." Again, it's like we have been set free from the curse of the Law because Christ became a curse for us, because he died on a tree and then he triumphantly rose from the grave, vindicating everything that he had done, securing our redemption and our resurrection.  
  
You mentioned Galatians 3 but even in Galatians 4, Paul begins again in verses 4-5 of Galatians to talk about how Christ was born under the Law to redeem those who are under the Law. What is that about? It's the redeeming us from the curse of the Law and fulfilling the Law in our place. The message of Scripture that unfolds throughout redemptive history makes Christ's role and work increasingly clear and specific. By the time he shows up on the scene and accomplishes it, and the apostles now have the Holy Spirit to interpret it and write it down, one can only be amazed to realize that this is what God has been doing from the jump. It has been accomplished now and what's left to us is to trust and receive it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The Passover had its original purposes and meanings and it was accomplished. Deuteronomy 21 was designed to shame Israel: do not do this because if you do, this is what we'll end up as because of the context of the unrepentant son.  
  
Justin Perdue: It was a second use of the Law reality. It was a deterrent against their corruption and evil.  
  
Jon Moffitt: But these were types or pictures being used to illustrate what is coming.  
  
I've used this illustration in the past: if you've ever been to an authentic Mexican restaurant where everything is in Spanish and you can't understand what's there, they are very kind to provide pictures for you. So these pictures show you that's a taquito, and that's a burrito, etc. You start to see what you're expecting. When the food shows up, that's the actual substance. There's a mystery in the language and then there's a picture next to it that gives it clarity. When the food shows up, you finally get it. Now I can taste and see; there is no longer confusion. This is what the Old Testament is doing is that there are these events that are happening, but these events are designed to broaden, deepen, and help us fully understand what it means for Christ to be our substitute.  
  
Another example of this is Isaiah 53:5 when Isaiah writes, "But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds, we are healed." Jesus then is on his way to Jerusalem in Matthew chapter 20, and he pulls his disciples aside in verse 18\. He says, "See, we are going up to Jerusalem. And the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes," by the way, Jesus here is saying that he is about to go on trial, "and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day." Jesus is telling them he is about to be crucified, and they should have understood that meant the cross or the tree. But of course, they didn't understand. They didn't make the connection. It's not until later that we see that the Holy Spirit unfolds these truths to Peter because Peter is the one who says, "cursed on a tree."  
  
Justin Perdue: It's incredible how viewing Scripture, in particular the Old Testament, through these lenses just brings it to life. Light bulbs start going off everywhere, connections start being made everywhere—and it's entirely legitimate that we do that. This is how the apostles understood the Bible and how they understood the Hebrew Scriptures as they look back on it through the inspiration of the Spirit and wrote these things down for us. As the Old Testament unfolds, Christ, that mystery, is being slowly unfolded before our eyes. There is increasing clarity as you work through.  
  
For example, we realize that the gospel was preached to Abraham in Genesis 12, and that the promised seed through which all of these promises would be realized is none other than Jesus himself. Paul makes that connection in Galatians three for us, especially in verse 16\. As we progress through Moses the Law and the sacrificial system, the Passover, and all of these things, they continue to clarify the work of Christ. They had their purpose and immediate context, but there was an ultimate purpose that was coming that was different and greater—and that is Christ.  
  
As we get to the covenant made with David, the same thing happens. There would be a King who would represent the people, accomplish righteousness, and would keep the Law for them. Ending even with the prophet Malachi and the things that he says about the forerunner who is going to come, the great and awesome day of the Lord, and all these things.  
  
By the time you get to the end of the Old Testament, you're wondering when this promised seed comes in and who he is going to be. Then we get Jesus showing up on the scene 400 years after Malachi. Here's the one. Then John the Baptist is crying out, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" He's here.  
  
This is how we at Theocast understand this. Jon, Jimmy, and I talk about this stuff all the time. Every time we do, we get excited and stirred up as we think about the plan of God and the sufficiency of Christ to accomplish our salvation. This maybe is a nice transition to think about what this means for the Christian life, for our churches, and for preaching. I trust some of that has become clear already as you've listened to the tone of our voices and you've heard us speak about what Jesus has done in our place.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It seems obvious to say, but the Old Testament is the foundation to the New Testament. It is also not only the foundation, but it becomes this massive undergirding that when you walk to the Old Testament, you realize there's greatness going on: that God is powerful and big, men clearly are not able to live up to any kind of righteous standard at all, and that God is merciful and kind. But there's just a lot of mystery that's going on. As the story unfolds, it gets wild. There is a lot of murder, blood, cursing, and damning. God is using wicked men and sorcerers to prophesy good and bless. There are also witches. It sounds like a _Lord of the Rings_ novel at some points where you think, "This is gnarly."  
  
Then you get to the New Testament and the keys are handed to you. And in these, you see what's going on in the Old Testament. To unlock your Bible, you use the New Testament as you read it. Then you go back and read your Old Testament and you realize this is what's going on: the seed of Eve is Jesus. It makes sense now because the seed of man is always "the son of..." When the Spirit shows up to Mary and says He will put Jesus, basically the Messiah, in her, that's the seed of Eve. It's coming from Eve through the Holy Spirit. All of these connections start happening.  
  
In my opinion, the application is this: the Bible becomes the way in which you learn about this covenant God that you're with. How incredible He is. It's not moralism in the sense of how I can impress and keep God happy, rather it is the Bible becoming the way in which you engage with Him. You're awestruck and your heart is drawn towards love and affection because of this beautiful story of how God has redeemed you. It's long and it takes years to unfold it for you to understand it.  
  
Justin Perdue: This matters certainly for preaching. Jon and I are the primary preachers in our respective churches. This certainly informs how we go about preaching every passage of Scripture, but it also it's inextricably linked to how we understand and are sustained in the Christian life, and how we are grown, sanctified, and transformed. It is through beholding the Lord Jesus Christ and being driven more deeply and completely into trust, reliance, and faith in him that we are changed. It's a 2 Corinthians 3 reality were beholding the Lord, we are transformed from one degree of glory to another.  
  
Of course, we talk about the things that are in Scripture written to churches in terms of how we live together. We talk about those things and we exhort one another to love and good works. But that is motivated, sustained, and made possible only through the proclamation and heralding of Jesus Christ week in and week out in our local congregations.  
  
To paraphrase John Calvin and add some language to what he says about 1 John 5:13 in his commentary, it is the duty of any godly preacher or any godly minister to extol as much as possible the mercy, grace, power, and sufficiency of Christ, so that we might be satisfied in him, that we might rest in him, and look for nothing else in terms of our salvation and our redemption. That's the project of the Christian life at its most basic primary level. This is what drives, propels, motivates, sustains, strengthens, and confirms everything else that happens in the church and in our lives as Christians.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hopefully, what we're demonstrating is that as you learn the structure of your Bible, how the Bible is designed and how it's unfolding, and I would even say how the New Testament preachers and teachers used the Old Testament, when we read this verse by Paul to Timothy in 2 Timothy that all Scripture is profitable, we understand that he's not talking about the majority of the New Testament. Paul is writing the New Testament as he is saying that all Scripture is profitable; he's talking about the Old Testament. The Old Testament is profitable to us in helping us digest the things of God that it affects the way in which we love and care, and the way that we defend the faith. Often, we assume he means the New Testament epistles when he said that. I just don't think that's fair.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even in 1 Timothy 4, he tells Timothy to give attention to the public reading and teaching of Scripture. I think Paul understands because there are references where he'll refer to Pauline letters as Scripture. There may be some understanding of that reality in Paul's mind when he's writing Timothy, but he also certainly means the Hebrew Scriptures. You give attention to the reading and teaching of these. Of course, Paul is thinking you're going to give attention to the reading and teaching of these in alignment with what the Holy Spirit is revealing through us.  
  
This is a minor exhortation, but just a brief plug for preachers, churches, and elders out there to preach the whole counsel of God. Don't just preach the New Testament, preach the Old Testament as it should be preached and understood and help your people see these things. Open up the treasures of God's word for your people and help them make these connections. Give them this robust undergirding for their faith in Christ to understand what's been done for them.  
  
Jon Moffitt: All scripture is Christian Scripture, meaning that all of Scripture is about Christ therefore it's applicable for Christians. We often think the Old Testament is Hebrew for the Hebrew people, the nation of Israel, and that's Law, which is already done and we can already do away with. I went to a seminary that promoted this: we are New Testament Christians so therefore, we will primarily teach the New Testament.  
  
Justin Perdue: In some cases, if not exclusively.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What you're doing is you're completely ripping out the foundation that created the New Testament, the one that prophesied and set up the need, purpose, and the design of the New Testament. You're going to end up changing the New Testament purposes and meaning because you don't have the types and shadows. You don't have language like the tree and curse, the language that helps you to structure the weight of the gospel. It's lost.  
  
I'm not saying someone is a heretic or they're not going to be able to teach the word of God. I just think that you're going to miss a lot that can encourage and build up the believer by ignoring 75% of your Bible.  
  
Justin Perdue: No doubt, Jon. I completely agree.  
  
Before we transitioned to the members' area, I do want to do something that we end up doing inevitably every few months or so, but it's fine that it comes up again. Sometimes a critique is levied against our understanding of Scripture and even our understanding of how to interpret it in this redemptive-historic, Christ-centered way. People will say that we are reading things into the text. In particular, we are charged with trying to find Jesus on every page of Scripture, trying to read him into every verse or find him under every rock. That is not what we're trying to do. We do not read the Bible like it's a _Where's Waldo_ book and Jesus is Waldo. That's not what we're doing. That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is that we are trying to understand every passage of Scripture in light of its main point. When we come to any passage, we are asking the question, "Where does this text stand in relation to the main point?" More pointedly because the main point, we understand, is redemption through Christ which is God's plan. Where does this passage stand in relation to Jesus? That's what we're asking. We're asking that question and then we are interpreting Scripture with Scripture. We're understanding the Old Testament in light of the Holy Spirit's revelation to us in the New Testament.  
  
Our response, in addition to what I've already said, is that to not understand and think about the Old Testament that way—in light of the fact that we have the New Testament and what the apostles wrote and what Jesus said—would be irresponsible. It would be an approach almost like sticking our heads in the sand. To only think about what this could have meant in its original context is not an appropriate biblical reading of a passage when we have the entire canon and this revelation from Christ and the apostles.  
  
That's just a brief anticipation to objections that could be welling up within the minds of people who are listening. Especially if they're newer.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're definitely going to unfold that in the New Testament.  
  
One parting thought. I would say the reason why we think that the Bible is Christ-centered, meaning that it's about Jesus, is that it starts with Jesus in the garden. The Trinity is there. Adam and Eve are separated from God. What is the first thing that God does? He promises Jesus, the seed. Then you have Jesus in the New Testament saying if you want to come back to the Father and the garden, you come through Jesus. The whole Bible is about this restoration. I don't know how you would interpret it any other way.  
  
Justin Perdue: When Jesus says, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me." He talks about everything written about him and the Law and the Prophets. He even says to a Jewish audience in John 5 that they search the Scriptures thinking they can find eternal life in them, but the Scriptures actually bear witness about Jesus. That's where we're getting this from. It's not something that we've made up at all.  
  
As I transition us out of the regular podcast and into the members' session, you mentioned Genesis in the garden. In Ephesians 1, we get the flashback to before the world was created. What do we have going on there? We have God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit covenanting together and formulating a plan to save people. It would be accomplished very clearly through the redemptive work of the Son. He would redeem us, Ephesians 1:7, by his blood that would be shed for us. So we are understanding all of Scripture in light of that flashback. Then it begins in time and space in the garden and from there, the rest of the Bible is the unfolding of redemption and restoration, all accomplished by the work of the Son, planned by the Father and applied by the Holy Spirit. It's great.  
  
This should be the real meat and potatoes and, to use an old term. The warp and weft of preaching and life in the church is this.  
  
We're going to continue having this conversation about some of the boots-on-the-ground realities. We always get a little bit more punchy in the members' area because it's a safe space for us to do that. I'm sure we're going to talk about objections to this kind of understanding of Scripture and things that are sometimes raised and critiques that are thrown. We'll deal with some of that and more. I'm sure Jon will have a bomb to drop because he usually does and he does that often in the members' area  
  
We thank you for listening and we hope that this conversation was encouraging and clarifying to you. If you're newer to Theocast and you want to find out more about our ministry and the content that we offer, you can make your way over to our website at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. One of the things that you can learn about over there on the website is our total access membership that will give you access to a number of different things. It's also a way for you to partner with us to see this message of rest in Christ and the sufficiency of Jesus spread as far and wide as possible.  
  
We're grateful that you've taken time to listen with us today. We look forward to talking with you in the regular podcast again next week.  
  
Jon and I are headed over to the members' area. We'll talk with many of you there.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-did-it-matter-how-jesus-diedtranscript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-did-it-matter-how-jesus-died/)

---

### MEMBERS: Is Your Theological System Any Good? (Transcript)

*Published: October 7, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-is-your-theological-system-any-good-transcript*
*Tags: bible study, Biblical Theology, Covenant Theology, Redemptive Historical, reformed confessions, theological system*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-is-your-theological-system-any-good/)

### **Recommended Resources:**

* [Biblical Theology (Geerhardus Vos)](http://amzn.to/2viExKq)
* [Far As The Curse Is Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption (Michael Williams)](http://amzn.to/2uWmXec)
* [The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom (Samuel Renihan)](https://press.founders.org/shop/the-mystery-of-christ-his-covenant-and-his-kingdom/)
* [Introduction To Covenant Theology (Theocast)](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/intro-to-covenant-theology/)
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast. We are so excited to be here with you.  
  
To Justin's first bomb drop, it is true that the whole argumentation between who is literal is unfair and unfounded. I am reading and interacting a lot with other people who have different systems. The two major systems today that are notable and legitimate to have a discussion over are dispensationalism and covenantalism. Those are really the two major systems historically - and I would say dispensational is a new system. I know a lot of them don't want to hear that, but it is new.  
  
The argumentation ends up being that covenantalists don't take the Bible literally. They read things into the text or back into the text, or they spiritualize the text. I will say dispensationalists actually spiritualize the text, too, and they are not very willing to be literal. When Paul says that all the promises of God are fulfilled in Christ, they don't take that literal somehow. There's the argumentation going back and forth and I don't really want to get into it. Covenantalism versus dispensationalism is not the point. It's more of really examining our systems and seeing if they are aligning up with Scripture. Can we really say that all of Scripture is pointing us to this? When I make the statement "all of Scripture is Christian Scripture", what do I mean by that?  
  
Justin Perdue: What you're pushing back against is the idea that the Old Testament is Hebrew Scripture for Hebrew people, and then the New Testament is Christian Scripture for the church.  
  
I agree with your statement that all of Scripture is Christian Scripture and that is because all of it ultimately centers on Christ and his work of redemption that God has planned before the world began. That becomes quite obvious as we read the Old Testament in light of the New Testament. Jesus and the apostles are crystal clear that all of what came before Christ was about him and what he would do.  
  
As a Christian, a pastor, and a preacher, I preach from the Old Testament a lot. I don't just camp out in the New Testament. Think about certain ministries that are relatively famous. Some guys will even say their goal was to preach the entire New Testament because that's really all that matters. What about the entire counsel of God's word?  
  
Jon Moffitt: 2 Timothy 3:16 has to refer to the Old Testament because they didn't even have all of the New Testament at that point.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. There are certain ministries, like I said, where guys will plan to preach the entire New Testament, and then they've done their job. I preach from the Old Testament a bunch. In terms of my preaching rhythm at CBC, I will alternate testaments: I'll preach one book from the Old and then from the New and go back and forth. I want our people to learn how to read their Bibles and how to understand Scripture. When I preach the Old Testament, I preach it as a Christian pastor who understands everything that's happening there in the Old Testament is in light of the great story of Scripture that centers on Christ. The Old Testament is Christian Scripture because it's forward-looking. There is no way to read the Old Testament and not plainly see that it is forward-looking. It is looking forward to someone who would come, to something that would happen, to something that would be finished, accomplished, and done. It is anticipating Christ. To preach it as though that is not the case, and then to stick our heads in the sand and act like this entire New Testament is not a thing and Christ didn't come and redemption isn't over, when I go to the book of Isaiah, is just flat out absurd. How is this responsible biblical interpretation when you are literally ignoring the main point of the whole thing? You are ignoring what happened afterward that the Prophets, Moses, the Psalms, and everybody are writing about.  
  
In evaluating a theological system and a theological framework, we need to ask these hard questions. Is your framework any good and right? If you're telling me that the Old Testament was only for Jews or is only for Israelites, sometimes I don't even know if that merits a response. It's poor thinking, brother. I'm going to stop. I'm trying to filter myself right now because I don't want to say things that are too strong.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say that we prioritize things in Scripture. We all do. I would say there are certain systems that give priority to Israel and the prophecies given to Israel. They ended up dominating Scripture where we really dig into the text to explain Israel, the purposes of Israel, and God's purposes to Israel. Israel is a dominant theme in the Old Testament but the question is what is God doing? What promises did God give to Israel? We tend to look at the prophetic passages that are given to Israel and say, "God still has promises that He must fulfill to Israel." I'm saying we have to read all of Scripture and look at all of what the Bible has to say about Israel, what God is doing with Israel, and the purposes of Israel.  
  
From day one, the people of God started with Adam and Eve, and then there was another group of the people of God that God narrowed out saying, "Through Abraham, I'm going to do a work." But God never excluded the other nations. Other nations could come and be a part of the people of God. It was never the exclusion. As a matter of fact, Israel was designed to bring us the Messiah so the Messiah could include all nations. The promise to Abraham is that all the nations would be blessed. Somehow we think that God is isolating out and will only work with Israel. It has always been the people of God, not one nation, but God's people.  
  
When you don't allow the New Testament and further revelations to help explain and interpret previous revelation, you end up making things a priority. I think it's obvious the Bible just doesn't make it a priority. When you do, it changes the purpose of the Bible.  
  
I will say that the redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture has had its different flavors and there have been some different ideas. But the overarching theme of Jesus as the point of the Bible has been the interpretive model for forever. When you think about dispensationalism, it has shifted in shape and form and has had so much change. Even the dispensationalism of today is not even close to what dispensationalism was when it first got created. That's because as you look at Scripture, we can't really hold to that because it doesn't really fit. I would say covenantalism, Jesus as the point, has been around for a long time.  
  
You mentioned  
  
Justin Perdue: several things that are worth commenting about. One is how dispensationalism in particular read the Prophets and will take the prophetic words to Israel and read them over the rest of Scripture. They will take the Prophets and what God says through them and read that back onto Moses, for example. Then they will say that it's illegitimate to read Jesus and the apostles back onto the Old Testament. To me, that's very inconsistent.  
  
In addition, you have to think about the promises made to Israel - inevitably we're getting into covenant theology here and I'm not going to get us mired in the weeds, but these comments are worth saying to the membership. When God makes certain promises to Abraham, to his physical seed, that He's going to give them a land, that kings would come from him, and all those kinds of things, we need to see that those promises do find their immediate fulfillment in the pages of the Old Testament but there is a greater fulfillment that they point to. Inevitably, we're talking about what's called typology. When God says, "I'm going to give you a land," we see that fulfilled immediately in the conquest of Canaan. God kept his promise that He had made to Abraham and to Abraham's descendants.  
  
Then we also understand in the language of the Prophets, for example, when they will talk about how there will be a return from exile. That actually happens; we see it written about in Nehemiah and Ezra when the people come back from exile and start rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem. Then we also understand that there's something greater going on there, too. The land of Canaan is ultimately fulfilled in the new heavens and the new earth; the return from exile is as well. We are exiled because of our sins and we're sojourners and pilgrims in this land; we're going to be brought into the heavenly city. That's the kind of thing that we're talking about. To realize that once those initial temporal promises are fulfilled, we don't need to carry those things over into eras yet to come.  
  
I think that's what often happens within dispensationalism. There are these promises made to Israel that are held onto as though they haven't been fulfilled already - and they have. Their ultimate fulfillment has to do with the people of God from all time. It's a new heavens and new earth redemptive reality. Those things are just completely lost.  
  
Jon, I stand by what I'm about to say, and you can disagree with me if you want and I won't be offended. Dispensationalists say Israel is the point of Scripture and the church is kind of the parenthesis. What we would say is that the church - the people of God from every tribe and tongue around the throne of God forever - is the point and Israel was the parenthesis because God worked primarily through Israel for a season of time in a certain period of redemptive history. But the plan was always for the nations to be blessed through the promised seed of Abraham. You see it in Genesis 12 - it's undeniable. Paul says the gospel was preached to Abraham when God said that all the nations of the earth would be blessed through his offspring. That's all we're saying. When we talk in these redemptive-historical and covenantal ways.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If I were to talk to a dispensationalist, they would say actually the point of God's word is something that they call it the _sine qua non_. You have the three pillars: you have a grammatical-historical understanding of Scripture, God's glory as the point of Scripture, and the separation of church in Israel. I can hold on to the first two and say, ultimately God is glorified through the redemption of sinners. If someone wanted to come to me and say the overarching purpose of Scripture is God's glory, I can't disagree with you on that because God is glorified. In Ephesians 1, it says that for all of eternity, we will be the reflection of His glory and we would be the trophies of His glory. To the praise of his glorious grace. If you want to argue that all of Scripture ultimately is about God's glory, I would be okay with that.  
  
But to help you interpret, you have got to take one step down, which is how does He do that? How does God get glory? Someone would say all of these stories are just random stories about how God gets glory. No, there's one overarching story and he makes it pretty obvious. Paul, in that same passage about glory, talks about predestining sinners to redemption. I would say God's glory and redemption - how does He accomplish that? He accomplishes it through the people of God, specifically beginning with Israel and going forward.  
  
Justin Perdue: He accomplishes that clearly through Christ. Even thinking about a passage like Philippians 2, you know that at the end of history, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. You cannot divorce Jesus in the plan of redemption from God's mission to glorify Himself. Those two things are inextricably linked in the plan and mind of God.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The reason I point out the _sine qua non_ of the whole system with dispensationalism, which is the last part separating church in Israel, that becomes such a hard line for them. They actually presuppose that upon the text. They end up prioritizing Israel: what happened to Israel in the Old Testament and the promises of what they think is going to happen to Israel, which is they're going to be their own separate nation in all of eternity, and that we're going to be there as a celebration. There's a lot of different explanations. The point of it is that we're always looking for the reestablishment of Israel as if God's point of writing the Bible is for all the world to be watching Israel. That ends up messing with people's assurance.  
  
I talked to people who are heavily into the end times and the priority of Israel: there is no rest and there is always this unease. Christ is not centered in their theology. The hope of Christ is not in focus. As a matter of fact, their Christology tends to be very weak but their understanding of end times - and I don't know how much of that you can actually understand meaning that it is allegorical and it is apocalyptic language. There's this massive emphasis on Christ and him crucified, but they want to spend all of their energy on Israel, on the promises of Israel, and the future of Israel.  
  
How is it that Paul says his emphasis is on Christ and yet your emphasis seems to be on Israel? This is not true of all dispensationalists so I'm not categorizing everybody, but it seems like the system pushes you in that direction.  
  
Maybe we need to have a conversation one day. This is not covenantal against dispensational, but this is a hermeneutic. I'm saying that your hermeneutics should, according to Scripture, lead you to assurance and it feels like a lot of people's hermeneutics lead them to doubt.  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to clarify what I said when I say that dispensationalists will say that Israel is the point: I don't mean the point of the whole Scripture. As far as the people of God are concerned, Israel is the point and the church is the parenthesis. What we would say is that Revelation 5 is the point and Israel is the parenthesis.  
  
You mentioned how a dispensational framework and this obsession with the end times, eschatology, the fate of Israel and how all that is going to play out tends to erode assurance. I think the reason that is true most fundamentally is because of what dispensationalism does with apocalyptic literature wholesale and what dispensationalism does with the book of Revelation in particular. In dispensationalism, how in the world is a person supposed to understand the book of Revelation? You get your charts out and hope that you're going to get something right here, whereas we would contend that the point of the book of Revelation is not so that 21st century theologians can get PhDs with the most outlandish interpretations imaginable. The point of the book of Revelation is the apostle John is writing to persecuted Christians in the first century who are wondering how this is going to turn out for them.  
  
The point of the entire letter is that Jesus wins, Christ is victorious, and that he will save the day. He has already won the day and he will come back, and that everything is going to be well eternally. So do not be afraid and keep the faith because your Savior has you. To interpret the book with any other authorial intent in view is misguided. That's when you start doing this crazy stuff with it, and you turn it into this Rubik's cube or this crazy puzzle where you have this ornate, extravagant code and unlock it. I don't think that that's at all what the biblical author intended to do in writing to people who were suffering and wondering if they made a good decision in trusting Jesus.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There are parts of Revelation that should cause fear because it's like Hebrews, if you walk away from Jesus, you should be afraid. But the majority of it is to bolster assurance and not fear.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even to point out the righteousness and the holiness of God, that vengeance belongs to the Lord and there will be judgment and wrath poured out upon all those who have not trusted the Lamb.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There will probably be more said. I guarantee you on this subject. Stay tuned for future episodes because we love this subject. We'll probably even do an entire education series one day on interpretive models. I'm sure it would be beneficial to us and our churches. We tend to talk about what we think our churches need. We're pastors at heart and this is what we want to do: we want to shepherd and love God's people. You just happen to hear the conversations that we like to have. We are thankful that you're supporting us to have those.  
  
We'll see you next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-your-theological-system-any-good-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-your-theological-system-any-good/)

---

### Is Your Theological System Any Good? (Transcript)

*Published: October 7, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/is-your-theological-system-any-good-transcript*
*Tags: bible study, Biblical Theology, Covenant Theology, Redemptive Historical, reformed confessions, theological system*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/is-your-theological-system-any-good/)**

### **Recommended Resources:**

* [Biblical Theology (Geerhardus Vos)](http://amzn.to/2viExKq)
* [Far As The Curse Is Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption (Michael Williams)](http://amzn.to/2uWmXec)
* [The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom (Samuel Renihan)](https://press.founders.org/shop/the-mystery-of-christ-his-covenant-and-his-kingdom/)
* [Introduction To Covenant Theology (Theocast)](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/intro-to-covenant-theology/)
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, Justin and I are going to talk about interpreting God's word. Do we just need Jesus and the Bible to fully understand everything that God has revealed to us? Are systems, confessions, and creeds bad? Do they influence negatively? Is it safe to say that we can actually read God's word without having a system? We are going to explain what biblical theology is and what the history of. Christianity has believed throughout time about interpreting God's word.  
  
In our members' podcast, can we talk about how all Scripture is Christian Scripture—including the Old Testament. We also share some thoughts on dispensational theology and how your system of interpreting God's word will affect your assurance. We hope you enjoy.  
  
We're going to talk about a subject that is very important to the Christian life. It's important for how the Bible will affect you and your relationship with the Lord. It is a subject that Justin and I have talked about for the last hour and a half and could talk about for another five hours. It is something we're very passionate about. We are going to be discussing how one engages with and interprets God's word. How do we read, understand, and apply it?  
  
I was raised thinking that we simply need to read God's word in context, take it at face value, and then apply it as we have read it. We didn't allow any creed, confession, system, or other churches or denominations to tell us how to read the Bible. We believed that the Holy Spirit can come in and illuminate God's word and He can bring the truth of God's word to apply to my heart. I just need to make sure that I read it and that the Holy Spirit lives within me and I will have proper application.  
  
Justin Perdue: You'll hear people talk about reading the Bible as though we can come to Scripture without any presuppositions, as though we don't have anything in our backpack already. It's assumed we just come empty and ready to be filled, and that we can take God's word on its own terms without any notions as to what any of this might mean or might not mean for us.  
  
Also, you used the word system—this is another big thing. There are a number of slogans that are thrown around with the best of intentions. You'll hear people say no creed but Christ, no confession but the Bible—things like that. We're not talking about creeds and confessions so much today, but you will also hear people imply that it's a negative thing that we would ever come to Scripture with a theological system or framework. There are a lot of people who are allergic to that kind of language. It's assumed you need to come not only with no presuppositions, but you need to come with no system or framework of theology.  
  
Not to bury the lead but I think what we are going to talk about today is the fact that everybody has presuppositions when we come to Scripture. Secondly, everybody has a theological system. The question is whether or not your presuppositions and your theological system are any good. That's the real question.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And even recognize that you have them.  
  
Justin Perdue: Correct. Recognize you have them and then evaluate them biblically.  
  
Here's the thing: we are not saying that we need all kinds of stuff that we would not get from the Bible in order to understand the Bible. That's not what we're saying. We want to look at the Bible on its own terms in its entire context, and then allow that to help us interpret each individual passage.  
  
This is not to be punchy, but a lot of people will tell you not to read a theological system onto the text, that there is no creeds but Christ, and all this kind of stuff, as they waive their study Bible in your face. What do you think those study notes are? You may define these terms: it's systematic theology, it's biblical theology—it's a system and a framework whether you think it is or not. It is what it is.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Almost every study Bible comes from a theological system. They're interpreting it from a grid. Let's put it this way: if you didn't grow up on an island, you had zero context for church at all and you literally started with Genesis 1, you're going to have to start creating some kind of an understanding by chapters 3-5\. The Bible is a big book full of different genres.  
  
Let's say you do have just a bit of a theological background. You lived and grew up in the United States or the UK or somewhere where the concept of the Trinity is not foreign. Almost everyone who reads their Bibles reads it with a Trinitarian system, meaning they have a systematic theology of the Trinity. What do we mean by systematic? When you look at all of Scripture, pull out what it says about a specific topic, then formulate a conclusion about it, we systematize Scripture into a theological conclusion.  
  
Justin Perdue: We’re teaching doctrine or truth claims.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. So we would say that the Bible concludes that God is a Trinity, right? He is one in essence but three in Person. Anytime that you read Yahweh, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, you are not reading that apart from your understanding that these aren't three different gods, these aren't three different beings that are completely separate, or that one was created and one is eternal. You believe that all are eternal, all are equal, all are God, and you put that upon the text.  
  
Justin Perdue: Why do you believe that? It's because Christians throughout history have surveyed the entire Scripture and have seen where God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit—and He is one God. Then they attempted to articulate that as faithfully as they could according to the word of God. Now we have the doctrine of the Trinity.  
  
Every Christian—in a Western context anyway—regardless of your theological framework, read Scripture from a Trinitarian perspective and come to the text with that presupposition.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you don't, you're not a Christian.  
  
Justin Perdue: If you're not Trinitarian, you are not historically orthodox.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's the simplest example I can give for people. If you are historically going to hold to what Christians have held to from the beginning of time, then you have to be Trinitarian and you're going to be reading Scripture in that way. That is where we use our systematic theology to help us interpret Scripture.  
  
What we're going to argue is that no one comes to the Bible and just reads it without a presupposition. We all are presupposing upon the text something about the text, and you have to determine what your presupposition is. I didn't realize I had a presupposition when I was growing up—through high school and going through college—until I learned about presuppositionalism. Then I learned about hermeneutics and interpreting God's word. Then I was taught a dispensational hermeneutic. I was taught to read the Bible from that perspective.  
  
What I realized when I was being taught dispensationalism in college and then in seminary was that it wasn't foreign to me because I've been taught that my entire life. I legitimately just thought I was opening God's word and I was just reading it for what it was. But I was actually putting upon the text this presupposition that had been handed to me. Everyone has these. You just have to be able to identify which one you have.  
  
Justin Perdue: You've used a couple of terms. You already defined systematic theology. Another word that you threw out there is hermeneutics, and what that means is a method of biblical interpretation or how we understand the Bible. Then you also talked about biblical theology, and what we mean by that is understanding the progressive nature of God's unfolding revelation as it pertains to the whole story of Scripture—and that story being the redemption of His people. Inevitably, when we have this conversation about how we understand the Bible, we are talking in terms of hermeneutics or interpretation, we're talking in terms of biblical theology and systematic theology, and all of these things matter for us as we come to the text and aim to make sense of it.  
  
There are people who ask if they have to go to seminary in order to interpret God's word rightly, and I would say a lot of people who went to seminary don't interpret God's word rightly. It's how we got heresy. There's nothing in Scripture that demands or commands that, and this is not what this podcast is about. This podcast is about helping us really look at the text and use it to help govern, as we concluded, Trinitarian theology from the text.  
  
There are other overarching theologies that help us interpret all of Scripture. One of the things that is very important in hermeneutics when you're giving the explanation of a text, you're exposing the meaning of a text. There are words that are being thrown out there that every interpreter of God's word, no matter what their theological system is, is going to understand. We're going to look at the grammar of the text. What is the actual grammar telling us? If you're a serious Bible interpreter, that's important. The grammar and even the syntax, meaning the structure of the sentences and how things hang together.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. This is important in any type of reading. If you're going to read history, a letter, or a document, reading comprehension is important. We want to start with the basics of the grammar. Then we understand that the Bible was written in a historic document form.  
  
Justin Perdue: It is written in a historical context in time and space, like events that are happening.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Sure. We're gonna look at the grammar. We're going to look at the history.  
  
The dispensational model and the covenantal understanding of Scripture, both would hold to a grammatical-historical understanding of Scripture. The grammar is important; it's vital. The history is important as well.  
  
When you're reading something, when you're looking at the grammar and you're understanding it from a historic standpoint, you have to understand the context. Who wrote this? Then there's a really important concept that I was taught in college and in seminary: the author's intention in writing what he wrote. All of that is helping you follow the text along the way: grammar, history, and authorial intent. Those are some ground rules that anyone who is serious about Bible interpretation would hold on to. This is where things are going to start to change. This is where we would say your system is going to influence what happens next.  
  
Justin Perdue: I will positively state some things that we at Theocast agree about that I don't think are controversial at all. You've already talked about the grammatical situation, the historical situation, and how we want to take those things seriously. You've also mentioned authorial intent: what was the intent of the author? Those things all matter. Then there is something that we would contend that is perhaps even greater, and that is the historic Christian confession and acknowledgment that there is one Divine Author of Scripture. There is the agreement that the Holy Spirit inspired men—He did not usurp their personalities but He inhabited them and their personalities—and had them write down exactly what He wanted written down. This is a great work of God as He superintended the process of revelation.  
  
Given that there is one Divine Author of Scripture, we are also concerned not just with the human author's intent as much as he understood it—Moses, David, the evangelists that who wrote the gospels, the apostles who wrote New Testament, epistles, etc.—but we are also concerned with God's intention. What did God intend to reveal through these particular passages of Scripture as his revelation continues to unfold?  
  
Jon Moffitt: A great passage that's used just to defend and explain what it is that you meant by the Holy Spirit is the one governing is 2 Peter 1:21: "For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." God, the Author, is the One who is influencing and moving what should be said and why we can call it perfect and infallible.  
  
Justin Perdue: 2 Peter 1 is perhaps the most clear text. 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is breathed out by God." We understand that God is inhabiting the personalities and even the minds of men, not overcoming them but inhabiting them, so that they write what He intends to be written down as they are carried along by His Spirit.  
  
We would be irresponsible to not consider the Divine Author's intent in every passage of Scripture. What is God doing from Genesis to Revelation? What is God telling us about Himself, about us, about His ways with us, and about the way of salvation and redemption? We want to interpret every passage of Scripture in light of that grand design that God has. We've got to start asking some questions like where would we understand those things? How would we understand the grand authorial intent of Scripture that comes from God Himself?  
  
Jon Moffitt: To that point, we now have mentioned context and now the greater context. When we are interpreting God's word, we always have to look at the greater context of all of Scripture. So there is grammar, history, and the immediate context. Let's take Genesis 3:15 as an example; this will be where we end up unfolding all of Scripture for us at this moment.  
  
In Genesis 3:15, we have Moses as the author. The grammar tells us that he is giving us a history in somewhat of a poetic form. Often, much of the Old Testament was written so that it could be sung and memorized by music. There's a poetic nature to what he's writing, but it's clearly the unfolding of a history. As for the author's intentions, this is where things can get a little muddy because we don't look at Scripture in a greater context. This is where the evolution and creation debate come into. Somehow we are thinking that the author's intention is to prove seven-day literal creation, and we're not even going to get into that—that's a whole podcast for another day. The author is Moses who is writing to the people of God, and they just became people of God in this reinstated covenant or a new covenant, which is the Mosaic covenant, and they have no idea who God is. They were completely paganized for 430 years in Egypt. What do they do the moment they get out into the wilderness? They are worshiping and building idols there. It's this gross worship of other gods. Moses comes in and says, "You need to understand who it is that you just made this covenant with."  
  
The context is important to interpret Genesis 3:15 and following, or even the first three chapters of Genesis. You have to read it in the context of the Law. To understand Genesis, you have to understand Exodus. Much of Scripture is reading and then going back, then reading and then going back again, because it will help explain to you why it was written ahead of time.  
  
Most Bibles are not structured in chronological order. They're structured in more of a systematic understanding of different genres. When we understand Scripture, we have to understand that it wasn't written as if a story begins in the beginning. And then it ends in Revelation. That is how those books are structured as far as it literally says in the beginning and then in Revelation it ends, but everything in between doesn't quite fit that way.  
  
Justin Perdue: Your example is really good. Moses wrote the first five books of Scripture. I don't know if this registers with everybody, but he is writing at a period of history that is much later than what happened in the book of Genesis as he wrote it. Moses comes along much later. What is he doing? He is recording history and what happened; we would contend he's recording history in a redemptive-historical way—we'll get to that maybe more in a minute. He's recording that history, but he's also trying to help the people of Israel understand who they are, where they came from, and what the point of their existence is. They were in Egypt for 400 years and now they've been rescued from slavery. God parted the Red Sea and did all these crazy things. Now they're wandering around in the wilderness and they've been given this Law—what in the world does all this mean? Moses is giving them that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you want to know what the authorial intent of Moses is when he's writing the first three chapters of Genesis, these people are polytheists, meaning that they believe in multiple gods. It is part of Egypt. It is what Israel is plugged with for hundreds of years. It's one of the top 10 commands: you should serve one God. Moses is battling and saying, they can no longer be polytheists because there aren't multiple gods. There is one God who created all things, including you; that's the authorial intent. The reason I can say that with confidence is because of the greater context of the Law. Reading back from Exodus and into Genesis, I can see what Moses is doing.  
  
This is a helpful example of saying there's grammar, there's history, there's the immediate context, and then there's a greater context which would be all of the Law. Now I would say that there's even a greater context than that.  
  
Justin Perdue: Let me use some slightly different terms to continue to clarify what we mean here. You were talking about the immediate context and that might be the book itself within which these words and events are contained, as well as the intent of the author of that book. There is a greater context that you described that we might even say is a particular epoch of redemptive history. Then there is an even greater context which would be God's entire revelation and grand plan of redemption that have existed since before time began, and will be consummated in the new heavens and the new earth.  
  
We want to understand and interpret Scripture on all of those levels and horizons: immediate context, the epoch of redemptive history that we're in, and then the context of the entire Bible, the whole canon, and the grand story of redemption that Scripture reveals.  
  
An observation for me is you hear some people say and argue that it is wrong to read something that occurs later and then understands something that came earlier in light of it. We just did it with Genesis and Exodus. There will be some who would press back against that idea, particularly when we come to try to understand the entire Old Testament. Then we will say one needs to understand the Old Testament in light of the New Testament. Some will press back on that idea.  
  
Where we stand here at Theocast is that the best interpreter of the Old Testament is the Holy Spirit speaking to us in the New Testament. If we're going to talk about the grand authorial intent of God, how would we best interpret an Old Testament passage? We would want to understand how Jesus and the apostles understood the Old Testament if we're going to faithfully understand it ourselves. We would not just go to the Old Testament and isolate it in its immediate historical context, but we would ask how Jesus, Paul, Peter, and all of these guys, by the inspiration of the Spirit, understand Isaiah, the Psalms, the book of Moses, etc. Then we take our cue from them in how we would interpret, preach, apply, and understand it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think that's really helpful. We have thrown some big stuff out there and I think it would be helpful for us to give some explanation. When you go to the Bible, you do have to answer a particular question: what is the Bible about? Was it at random? Here's some information about Israel, now here's some information about the Law, now here's some Psalms and Proverbs, and here's some prophecy about when Jesus comes back—oh, yeah, there's this Jesus guy so now let's talk about Jesus in the New Testament. We chop the Bible up and there's no fluidity to it at all. There's no continuity—it's all discontinuity; it can be a jumbled mess.  
  
We would say that when you interpret Scripture, there becomes a theme. I would say that theme is introduced to you at the beginning. In Genesis 1, you understand that there is a God who is the Creator of all things and He is sovereign—meaning there is no other God than He. He is powerful and He is sovereign. It's introduced to us in this capacity in the beginning. Then very early on in the story, we are introduced to the relationship that God develops between humanity and himself. God walks with humans and He has a relationship with them. He even puts them as responsible for His creation and gives them some regulations: don't eat of the tree, do govern, and procreate.  
  
Immediately, what do humans do? They're tempted by Satan and they fall. Within three chapters, it's this immediate introduction to God, man, and man's relationship with God. The relationship between God and man doesn't last very long: they are separated by sin immediately. When the separation happens, there's a promise. This promise was always lost to me and I don't know why it was never emphasized, but God makes a promise to Eve and He says, "Eve, through you and your seed will come whom we call the Snake Crusher." He's going to come and crush the head of the serpent and he will bruise his heel. You might be thinking that that's a very weird phrase. What does that mean? It's this metaphor that gets greater and greater explanation.  
  
I will tell you from the story in Genesis that you do see Adam and Eve anticipating in this child being born. Adam and Eve lived in the garden, then they were cast out of the garden, and the garden was protected. Adam and Eve are anticipating this child fixing what they broke because this is what God promised.  
  
The question that remains in everybody's mind as you're reading is this: who is the seed? I don't know how you can't interpret the Bible with that immediate context influencing you. It's not like God changes plans and goes, "Now I'm going to do something different. I've decided I'm going to have a nation." Then the whole Bible becomes about a nation that is disconnected from the previous promise made to Eve.  
  
Justin Perdue: I would contend, in the spirit of what you just said, beginning with Genesis 3:15, we understand that the rest of Scripture from that point forward is an unfolding of that plan that God revealed there in that verse. There will come one who will crush the head of the serpent—the devil—who will conquer the great enemy of God's people, right every wrong, and who will fix what Adam and Eve broke.  
  
I would contend that if we're talking about the Old Testament prior to Christ's arrival, it is undeniable that the Old Testament is forward-looking. There is always this gaze that is fixed to a time in the future when something will happen that will absolutely, unequivocally save God's people—and it will be accomplished and it will be done. Then that guy shows up on the scene and then all of the revelation that comes after him is explaining further what he accomplished and what that means for life in the church, which is the new people of God.  
  
I'm not trying to be punchy or anything like that, but it burns me up when people say that what Isaiah is saying is fundamentally not about Jesus but about Israel. It's not about Christ. Or what David is writing about is about Israel, his kingly line and not about Jesus. I want to be gracious to you and understand what you're trying to say and assume well of what you mean. I get that there's an original context and that there's that epoch of redemptive history, but is it not clear that Isaiah and David and all the writers of the Old Testament are looking forward to Christ who would come? Of course we understand them in light of Jesus and how Jesus understood them. We understand them in light of how the apostles understood Jesus to fulfill everything that was written in the entire Old Testament; to not do so would be irresponsible at best and maybe insane at worst. I will try to restrain myself there.  
  
If you talk about the creation account in Genesis, the point of that is to establish who God is, how humans were made in His image, how He owns us, how He requires things of us, and our relationship to him. I would even contend that in reading Genesis 1-3, we immediately are thinking about what God reveals in Revelation. If we're not, we're misguided; you see the fulfillment of that creation in the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life and everything that's in it. You see the fulfillment in the new heavens and the new earth, the heavenly city, the Tree of Life that's there, and how all of this stuff that was broken is restored; God is now with man, He is their God, and the Lord is with them.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Let's go to the words of Christ here real quick. Luke 24:44 and following: Jesus in response says, "'These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.' Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are the witnesses of these things.'"  
  
Then you have Jesus literally saying that the Law and the Prophets were written about him. John 5:46\. "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me." Let's make some clarifications; there are some miscommunications here. We are not saying that you can find Jesus in every verse of the Old Testament. That somehow here's a connection to every little thing that was ever written by Moses. The point of it was the greater context, the purpose of what Moses is writing, is the redemption of Israel or of God's people in history. Jesus is pointing back to the Law, back to the Prophets, back to the Psalms saying they are speaking of him. The greater context or the overarching purpose of the Bible is to reveal to us how God is going to fulfill the promise He made to Adam and Eve—which then was further made to Abraham, his sons, Moses, David, then to Israel and the Prophets—that there is coming one who is the greater: the greater Priest, the greater Prophet, the greater King. Then when Jesus shows up on the scene, he is described as our Prophet, Priest, and King, which is the entire Old Testament system. The entire Old Testament system is a prophetic and priestly kingdom.  
  
Justin Perdue: John 5 is incredibly important. You already referenced John 5:46, but in John 5:39, Jesus is talking to his Jewish audience and he says, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me. . ." Jesus shows up on the scene and John the Baptist pronounces him as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. We should be thinking about a whole host of things, but in particular the Passover lamb and all the lambs that were slaughtered to fulfill Israel's obligations in the sacrificial system. This is so that they might have their uncleanness dealt with so that they could then be a part of the people again.  
  
The book of Hebrews—if we're going to talk about biblical theology, if we're going to talk about how to interpret Scripture and how to understand the Old Testament, there might be no book more valuable than Hebrews. Here we understand that Jesus is greater than angels, he is greater than Aaron who was Moses' brother and was instituted as a high priest, he is, he is greater than Moses and Moses was a prophet unlike any other.  
  
Then we understand that Jesus is the fulfillment of everything that has come before, including the sacrificial system. We read that the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin, but the blood of Christ can. We read that he has accomplished redemption, he is seated at the right hand of God, God's people have been perfected for all time, and that he has saved them and it's done. All the priests who came before him died but he lives forever, he makes intercession for them, he has saved them and will see to it that they will be with him forever. We are not trying to force something down onto the Scripture that's not there; we are just taking our cue from Christ and the apostles to interpret the entire Bible in light of God's purpose, which is to accomplish His plan of redemption that He made before the world began. We are unashamed because God is unashamed that that plan would be accomplished through Christ and him alone. This kind of Christ-centered redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture comes out of the text and then we read the entire thing in light of it.  
  
Lastly, I know we say this stuff all the time, but the drum needs to be beaten constantly because people always are asking, "Is it responsible to interpret the Bible this way? Is it right to preach this way? Is the point of every passage of Scripture Christ and the redemption accomplished by him ultimately?" I would stake my ministry on it that yes, that is the ultimate point of every passage of Scripture. I'm going to stop.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No, it's helpful. What we're trying to argue here is that the Bible is the story of how God redeems sinners through Christ—that is the overarching story. That doesn't mean that there are no sub-stories and subcategories that uphold that. Right. Everything in the Old Testament is underneath that. If you're going to base your entire relationship between you and God, the Creator of the world, on the relationship and the words of Jesus—because Jesus says you cannot get to the Father unless you get through him—that's a big statement. If we're going to trust Jesus and believe that eternity is staked on a man named Jesus, who is saying that eternal life only happens through him and that it's the only way, you better be sure that what he is saying is trustworthy. The Old Testament is the proof that Jesus is trustworthy, but we don't see it that way. We see the Old Testament as there being these moral values and a whole system by Israel where Israel becomes the point of the Old Testament. Christians I meet everywhere are all talking about the last times and Israel. They read their Bibles with the newspaper in hand as if somehow that's the point of the Bible. You're missing the point here. The majority of Scripture is the revelation of how Jesus Christ wins, not how we should be terrified of what the world might do.  
  
1 Corinthians 15:45\. These are the types of patches that I'm talking about that we can use and help us understand. It's this rainbow effect when we go back to Genesis and read it again. Paul talks about how there are two Adams, and this is what he says: the first Adam became a living being, the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. He's using this language of two Adams where we understand that where Adam failed, Christ succeeds. We're using all of Scripture to answer this question: how is it that Christ becomes the life-giving Adam?  
  
Then you also have Paul in Ephesians interpreting all of Scripture for you. He gives you a story that the Old Testament doesn't hand you—you don't get this story until you get to the New Testament. Ephesians 1:4 says, "Even as he chose us in him before the foundations of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will . . ." Paul is saying God's plan of redemption started before Genesis 1\. Later on, we have Paul interpreting not only the Bible, but all of God's will and all of redemptive history, I would say of all of the history of the Bible, explaining that it is the unfolding of this. How do you get to the adoptions of sons? He's telling you that started before Genesis 1 started.  
  
Justin Perdue: A couple of thoughts before we head to the members' area. Jesus is not only the new and better Adam, but it is quite clear that Jesus is the better Israel as well. How would we see that in Scripture? One example that I think is very clear is if you consider the beginning of Christ's ministry. Not only is he baptized for the sake of his people—that would also point back to how the language of Scripture is that Israel is baptized in the waters of the Red Sea—but before Jesus is tempted by Satan, he is in the wilderness for 40 days. Israel was in the wilderness for 40 years. Then Jesus will quote Scripture from the book of Moses to Satan, which is from that era of redemptive history. Jesus succeeds in where Israel failed—and he obviously succeeds where Adam had failed in the garden in succumbing to the temptation of Satan.  
  
Jesus is the greater Adam—he's the greater Israel. Even in understanding what Christ came in to accomplish, he is accomplishing what Israel failed to do and he is the better Son of God. It's appropriate that we would understand Israel in light of Christ and what he was coming to do.  
  
Just one maybe punchy thing, if you'll allow me to say it, and I'm not trying to upset anybody. Here at Theocast, we're Reformed and we are covenantal in our understanding of Scripture. We have talked about covenant theology at various points—we've got a teaching series on that that we would recommend to you as well. Sometimes friends of ours will levy criticism against Reformed covenantal types. They'll say they are re-aiming to read the Bible literally, and we are not trying to do that in the same way. I'll say I don't agree with them. When you say that you are reading the Bible literally, you don't mean that when Jesus will say something like, "I am the Door of the sheep." You don't believe that Jesus is literally saying that he's a door. You'll say no, of course not, he's using the language of metaphor there—to which we would say exactly. This is what we say about Scripture often is that not all of the revelation is the same kind. There are a lot of metaphorical, figurative languages that have a greater meaning than what is right there on the page in front of you. Sometimes they'll read about scorpions or something in the book of Revelation and say those are Apache helicopters or something. I thought they were meaning to read the Bible literally? Which is it? It seems that they too are understanding that there are various kinds of literature in Scripture and you are more or less literal depending on what passage we're talking about and what the text is saying. You need to understand that that's all we're doing: we just have a different theological system than you, so now let's go to the text and evaluate our systems and see whose is better frankly.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm going to respond to that in the members' podcast. I do have some things to say. That's so good.  
  
There are four things I'm going to recommend—and these will be in the notes. For resources: one, our new series on covenant theology. The first two episodes are where we go into a deep explanation of what we've been trying to say here as far as a redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture from the covenant of redemption is concerned. I would also recommend a couple of books. The easiest one would probably be Sam Renihan's book, _The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom_. His first three chapters are excellent for a redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture. Michael Williams' _Far as the Curse Is Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption_ is also a great book. I don't agree with everything he says in there, but I think his opening few chapters are excellent. Then if you want one that's hard to read, but it's the foundation that a lot of guys hold to, it's called _Biblical Theology: Old and New Testaments_ by Geerhardus Vos. You'll find those on our website. Go to the wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com, find this episode, and you'll be able to find all of that there.  
  
In our members' section, we are going to talk about how all of Scripture is Christian Scripture. There's no such thing as a Bible that is just for the Old Testament people and Bible for the New Testament. A big mistake is we ignore the Old Testament often. Second, I believe your method of interpretation will influence how you see assurance and the point of assurance of the believer.  
  
I will just say this: I think the redemptive-historic covenantal perspective of Scripture is what brings assurance to the believer. It's the point. Other systems tend to cause you to doubt your assurance.  
  
For those of you who don't know what we're talking about, we have a membership. It's a way for everyone who would like to support Theocast can do so. We provide extra content like additional classes, some online live streaming, and other different resources. You can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com to learn more about how to support us and be a part of our membership.  
  
We'll see you over there.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-is-your-theological-system-any-good-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-is-your-theological-system-any-good/)

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### MEMBERS: The "Five Points" of Reformed Theology (Transcript)

*Published: September 30, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-the-five-points-of-reformed-theology-transcript*
*Tags: Calvinism, Confessionalism, Covenant Theology, reformed, Reformed Theology, what is reformed theology*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-five-points-of-reformed-theology/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. We want to thank our members for your support of Theocast. We could not do what we do without you. This message of the sufficiency of Christ and the rest that we have in him would not go to people that it has gone to, it would not be spreading like it is, without your partnership with us. Thank you for your support. We pray you continue to partner with us in this work and continue along with us to spread this word of Christ: the message of Jesus, the sufficiency of Christ, and the rest and peace that pilgrims like us have in him.  
  
We want to continue now with our conversation on the five points of Reformed theology as we are defining them. We are going to pick up where we left off in defining the three uses of the Law.  
  
Just as a reorientation, we are in our fourth point, which is Law-gospel distinction. We've talked a little bit about what that distinction is, about what Law is, and about what gospel is. But we would be remiss if we did not define the uses of the Law, because that's an important piece of the Law-gospel distinction conversation. I'll talk about each of these uses and why they matter so much.  
  
The three uses, historically understood, sometimes has a difference in the way that they are ordered that is dependent on which tradition you're a part of. For us Reformed guys in the 1689 tradition, it is ordered as such. The first use of the Law is to show us our sin and drive us to Christ for salvation. It is that mirror that we assess ourselves in light of God's Law. We see how short we fall. We are ruined, undone, and driven to Christ because he is our only hope for salvation and we cast ourselves upon the mercy of God in him. That is the first use of the Law.  
  
The second use of the Law is to restrain our corruption. In one sense, this is a kind of civil use. Let me illustrate it this way: this is where God tells us that if you do these things, it will be good for you, and if you do these things, it will be terrible for you. Sometimes when he tells us not to do something, there is punishment that is threatened that would curb and restrain our corruption. It helps us to see that it's not worth doing it. That's the second use: do this and it will go well, do that and it will destroy you.  
  
The third use of the Law is in Christ; the Law serves as our perfect guide for living. This is not a threatening thing. This is not a scary thing. This is God's goodness and kindness to us that in Christ, we've been redeemed, we've been counted righteous, our sin has been removed from us, and now God's Law guides us in all of our matters of living. We pursue adherence to the Law as we trust Christ and rely upon the Holy Spirit in us to do that conforming work. That's the first, second, and the third use of the Law.  
  
Jon Moffitt: For the sake of time, we're not going to give a huge Scriptural background here, but you can definitely see these in Scripture. First. Paul says it's a mirror it's to show you your need for Christ. Second, you can see how it's used to govern. The flesh is so evil that we need there to be a governing as far as suppression of evil goes, as far as making sure that we're not killing each other goes. Then the third use fits because the nature of humanity has not fully been glorified. This is another Reformed understanding of Scripture where we believe that we are both saved and a saint, meaning that the Spirit comes in and dwells within us, but that we are also a sinner. This falls into the Law-gospel or three uses of the Law that we hold. These two are in tension; we aren't fully glorified yet and we don't have all of the abilities to fight against the flesh 100% of the time. This is why Paul says in Romans 7, "The things that I don't want to do, I keep doing them." He calls himself the worst sinner that he knows. 1 Timothy 1:15\. The residue of the sinner still remains because of that. The third use of the Law comes in and it's there to help govern our lives as believers, to push us towards loving God and loving neighbor with an explanation of how it should be done.  
  
Justin Perdue: An example is how we would preach and even imperatives and commands that are given to us in the New Testament. Let's look into Paul exhorting his readers to flee from sexual immorality because the sexually immoral will not inherit the kingdom of God. First of all, the context of the New Testament epistles does matter. Paul most often was not writing into a Jewish context but into a Gentile context, where sexual immorality would have been part and parcel of their religion. They would not have to intuitively understand that this biblical sexual ethic is a thing and he needs to explain that to them - that's a whole other conversation.  
  
In that imperative of fleeing from sexual immorality and how the sexually immoral will not inherit the Kingdom of God, this is the first use of the Law: we would be very clear on what God's Law requires, how all of us stand condemned, and how every one of us is weak. We have failed to meet the test and we are desperate then for One who would keep that law in our place - and his name is Christ. Run and flee to him. This is the second use of the Law: sexual immorality will wreck your life. It's really bad for you. If you avoid it, it will go well for you. Sin is not worth it. It never brings anything good. The third use of the Law is that in Christ Jesus, knowing all of these things means we're safe. We're in Christ: we're righteous and redeemed; so now let us pursue uprightness when it comes to our sexual lives. Let's flee from sexual sin because we do know it's bad for us, but also because we want to honor God with our lives. We want to be good for our neighbor. We trust Christ. We're going to rely upon the Spirit to do this work in us. Let's lock arms together so that we might live this way. That's how we would go about preaching that.  
  
The only threatening piece in any of that is the holiness of God's Law and what He requires. But then we are offered Christ in the gospel anew, even as Christians. We run to Christ and we receive that anew as we sit under the word each week. In one sense, we are absolved of guilt anew. We are reminded of righteousness granted anew. We have peace with God.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Two thoughts on that. The third use of the Law comes from our assurance unto obedience; it is not obedience unto salvation. When the third use of the Law is given, it is given to the person who is fully assured of their status.  
  
Justin Perdue: I would even say it's not obedience unto assurance.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. Sometimes when people hear us, they say, "Wait a minute, there's no use of the Law. The Law is abolished. It's over with. It has been fulfilled." They're thinking that what we are saying is do this unto salvation or do this unto assurance. What we are saying because you are assured, and because you are a family member, here is how family members are to participate in God's family rightly. The reason these are required is we're sinners. We need to be told to do these things because our flesh is going to be selfish and it's going to be entrapped. We need those encouragements and instructions saying we are going to be tempted to do this so we need to do that.  
  
Let's go to Ephesians 4\. Paul gets done talking about our election and our calling, and he says, "If you have been chosen, you need to walk in a manner worthy of the calling which you have been called." He's now going to give you instruction as a family member. Then he says to do it with patience, meekness, and long-suffering. Bear with one another. He has to do that because when we get around each other, we're going to lack patience because we're sinners; we're going to lack meekness and kindness because we're sinners. The Law comes in and says that you need to govern your flesh, but we will always say that the third use of the Law is never given to you outside of the gospel. It's relevant because of the gospel. The first three chapters of Ephesians is gospel. Then third use of the Law comes after, not before.  
  
Justin Perdue: Think of the entire letter of 1 John. He is writing to Christians, there has been false teaching in the church, and people have left the church and abandoned them. He is writing to the redeem to comfort them. His exhortations about practicing righteousness, loving the brothers, and all of those things are not meant to unsettle but to comfort them. He tells them that they are already doing this, and that they should just do it all the more.  
  
To your point, Jon, he's writing to the redeemed and telling them about how the redeemed live. He tells them that the people and the false teaching they have been are the ones who are faults. They are in Christ. This is evidenced by him saying this is how we live together as redeemed people in the community called the church.  
  
The third use is never threatening. Oftentimes, one of the sad things is that that third use of the Law is preached with a threatening tone as though it's like the first use: you're going to be crushed and that should never be. That's a confusion in of itself.  
  
Let's move on now to our fifth point of Reformed theology, at least as we see it here at Theocast. The fifth one is an ordinary means of grace understanding. Ordinary means of grace is how we understand that we are sustained and sanctified in the Christian life. Yeah. This is a big deal because people ask this question, "Tell me, pastor, how am I going to grow? Tell me how I'm going to be sanctified. What do I need to be doing so that I can become more like Christ?" That's what all Christians want to be.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The confessions here are very helpful. This is where we are going to learn about the primary means of which God administers a grace to us. We would argue from Scripture that the New Testament shows where there are the ordinary ways in which God strengthens and sanctifies us. Just think about the word "ordinary" for a moment. There are definitely extraordinary times or means that God has used and can use to build His church and strengthen our faith. But in the week in and week out day-after-day, these are the means that he has guaranteed and promised to strengthen us. Historically speaking, those would be the public teaching and preaching of God's word, which are also seen in administering the word through fellowship.  
  
I would also say the sacraments: baptism, the Lord's Table, and lastly prayer. I would say public was definitely meant there, but I think there's argumentation for private prayer that God uses there as well. These are the means that God uses to grow us in our knowledge and trust, to grow us in our sanctification, and - to use Paul's actual language in Ephesians 4:16 - to strengthen us in love. He says when the body functions properly, it strengthens itself so it builds itself up on love. In that context, he's talking about preachers and teachers gathering together and administering the word, administering the Table, and administering baptism. That would be the three means by which, when we say ordinary means, are the means that God uses to strengthen and govern His church.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's important to understand that the ordinary means of grace primarily occur when the church has gathered. This is a gathered assembled church reality. You alluded to the fact that private prayer is useful and I agree with you.  
  
These basically are the ordinary means of grace in a Reformed church context that we do when we gather: word, sacrament, and prayer. We could potentially add in their song: "Sing Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to one another."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Which I think falls underneath word.  
  
Justin Perdue: I agree. Same. Even in some sense, it's prayer, depending on the kind of song that it is, etc. You and I are in agreement about that.  
  
This happens when we gather and not so much when we're alone. That sounds counterintuitive to the modern evangelical ear because we have been so conditioned to think that what really matters is what happens when I'm by myself, and it's just Jesus and me. The pattern of the New Testament, the way that it was written, is it is Jesus and us. The epistles in the New Testament, for example, are written to congregations, churches, and even the ones that are written to individuals like the pastoral epistles 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, and then Philemon are written to individuals with the church in view. Whenever the word, prayer, and the sacraments are talked about, it's always in that gathered "we" or "us" kind of way. This is how God works.  
  
To your point, the body builds itself up in love. Ephesians 4 is so helpful in that the body builds itself up unto maturity and the stature of Christ. This is a practical boots-on-the-ground application: when people ask me how they can grow in the faith and what do they need to be doing, I tell them to concern themselves with just showing up on Sundays.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's mealtime. Come and eat.  
  
Justin Perdue: People look at me like I'm crazy. They are thinking there has got to be more to it than that. Of course, there are other things we can talk about and we will talk about, but this is where it begins. Discipleship is a buzzword in our context. I tell people that their discipleship begins on Sunday morning. This is where discipleship not only starts, but also will be sustained. If you don't show up here, I have no hope for you that you will grow and will be sustained in the faith. People who just kept showing up at our churches end up looking at us and understanding that what we said was right. They have been coming for a year - or two or three - and so much has changed. What's ironic is they are doing the same stuff that they were doing before, but they're doing them for different reasons and with a different posture.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The ordinary means reorients your priorities. Jimmy wrote an article about the real stuff of the Christian life. We think the real stuff of the Christian life is personal Bible reading, prayer, and spiritual disciplines. Scripture says the real stuff of the Christian life happens when the body functions together. Nowhere else in Scripture is there a promise of growth and spiritual building then when it's inside the context of the church.  
  
Here's another: Paul is talking to the church in Colossae. In Colossians 3:16, he says this: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly." Now he doesn't mean that individually; he's writing to a church. How do we know this? "Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God." The writer of Hebrews says, "Let us hold fast," us collectively, "the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works." Why? Because of the confessions that we are holding to, we are then applying those. "Consider how to stir one and up and love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, all the more as you see the Day drawing near." It is talking about the return of Christ drawing near. God's people have engaged in God's word for the sake of obeying God's word together for the purposes of growing in godliness.  
  
We always assume holiness happens outside the context of the church. Paul and the writers in the New Testament say that actually, godliness is seen and applied in the context of the church. When the word of God and our confession is held together, we consider how to build one another up, and then we grow. The Christian life is not designed to be lived alone. We make that argument from ordinary means language because this is what Scripture tells us.  
  
There are two different ways that I sometimes will talk about this. One is that the corporate reality of the Christian life drives the private reality - private meaning you living by yourself, or once you've left church, and things like that. As evangelicals, we tend to think the opposite: we think that the private drives the corporate. We think we're useful in the corporate setting because of what we have done privately; no, the corporate reality will make you useful everywhere else because it is what sustains you and propels you forward.  
  
We could even talk in the gathered-scattered sort of paradigm where the church gathers in order to scatter and to love your neighbor through the week, then we gather again on the Lord's Day. You will be useful when you scatter because you've gathered. You will be sustained, fed, and strengthened in the gathering so that you can then scatter to love your neighbor. It's a very liberating thing.  
  
This is my closing thought: the ordinary means understanding frees people. It simplifies Christian life in a very biblical way, and we prioritize the right things. When you look at somebody and say, "Just show up to church and everything else is going to sort itself out," that person will not only experience the ordinary means in the gathering but also, when they have a conversation with somebody after and they are invited to hang and end up going, they build these things into their lives. Before you know it, the fellowship of the saints is happening and all kinds of good things just flows out of that gathered reality. Then you look up in a year or two or five, and you realize that your life is different than it was. You don't even know that you have done a lot. That's the point: God has used His ordinary means to accomplish His extraordinary ends by the power of His Spirit.  
  
I would say the ordinary means changes your identity. Justin, you never think of yourself outside of the context of a husband and father, because that is who you are, and it has fundamentally changed the direction of your life. You were married a little bit later in life, meaning that you had developed a career and you were a single man for a while. Then when you were married, it changed the way you thought, it changed the way that you spent your time, and it changed the way you spent your money. Then you had four children and that changed the way in which you and your wife structured your lives even more. Your priorities went from an individual I-do-whatever-I-want to being more responsible because now people rely and depend on you.  
  
What happens when you understand the ordinary means of grace is they happen within the context of the church - not only do you need the church but also the church needs you because you're a part of that body. They depend upon you, your priorities change, and your attention goes to the gathered church. You never think of yourself as an individual Christian, but you think of yourself as being part of this family who has responsibilities. As you govern your life, you build your priorities around the love and care of the body that you are a part of. The ordinary means of grace is what helps drive and change that.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's good, brother. This has been a good conversation. I hope that it has been helpful for those who have tuned in, especially if you're newer to Theocast. We hope this has been a good conversation for you to clarify what we mean when we say Reformed.  
  
You can go over to our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com where you can find a number of resources, including a couple of short primers that we've written on confessional theology, it's called _Faith vs. Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest_. In addition, we have done a primer on assurance that we have called _Safe in Christ_. These are things that we hold near and dear that we see in Scripture and in the confessions. We hope that those things are encouraging to you and remind you, as we all need reminders, of the sufficiency of Christ and what he has done for us.  
  
Thank you again to our members for your generous and faithful support of this ministry. Continue to partner along with us and pray along with us that this message would spread as far and as wide as possible.  
  
We thank you again, and we look forward to talking with you next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-five-points-of-reformed-theology-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-five-points-of-reformed-theology/)

---

### The "Five Points" of Reformed Theology (Transcript)

*Published: September 30, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/the-five-points-of-reformed-theology-transcript*
*Tags: Calvinism, Confessionalism, Covenant Theology, reformed, Reformed Theology, what is reformed theology*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-five-points-of-reformed-theology/)**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we are going to answer a question that we get all the time not just in the ministry of Theocast, but also even in our own local churches. We talk about Reformed theology and being Reformed all the time so people will rightly ask us, "What do you mean by that? What does the word Reformed mean?" In today's episode, Jon and I will be answering that question.  
  
We hope that this is helpful to you. Stay tuned.  
  
Five points of Reformed theology - by that we don't mean that Theocast is definitively laying down the gauntlet for what the litmus test of Reformed theology is. These are just five tenet or five major pieces of Reformed theology from our perspective.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In our area, Reformed theology is not popular. A lot of people don't know what it is, which is partly why we decided to put it in the name of the church. I give these five points to people who come to our church for the first time.  
  
Again, to Justin's point, these could be altered a little bit - you could add some or adjust a little bit. But we would say historically speaking, if you were to look at the history of the word and the concept of Reformed and a Reformed church, these five are what would be in all contexts of a Reformed church.  
  
The first one that Justin and I would agree on is that the words "Reformed" or "Reformed church", and I know this might be a big or controversial word for people, is going to be Calvinistic. They would hold to what we would say is the five points of Calvinism.  
  
Justin, for someone who has no idea and is just curious about Reformed theology, please give us a helpful definition of Calvinism.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm not going to give the five points of Calvinism. A brief plug: we did five episodes - one on each of the five points - a while back. That is available to anybody for a donation of any amount. We would refer you to those if you want a more detailed unpacking of each of the five points.  
  
The simplest way to define Calvinistic theology historically, and from our perspective here at Theocast, is that God is sovereign and purposeful in all things and He certainly is in redemption. When it comes to the salvation of sinners, there is one Worker, there is one Person, one Being who accomplishes salvation - and that is God Himself. In other words, salvation belongs to the Lord. God saves sinners. This is what Calvinistic theology would teach.  
  
To use a word that is slightly more technical and theological but is good for us to know, as Calvinists, we believe that salvation is monergistic. "Mono" means one, and then the word "ergo" means work. There is one Worker, and that is God. We contribute nothing to our salvation. All we bring is our sin and God does everything necessary to save sinners. He grabs us and pulls us from the realm of death into life. He gives us His Spirit. He counts us with the righteousness of Christ. He provides us with everything that we need. We are redeemed through His work, and not our work.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We have that perspective of Scripture where we believe that the Bible clearly teaches that man is dead in their sin; there is nothing they can do to bring themselves to life. This is why the Spirit must come through the preaching of the gospel and bring them to life. To those who would understand a Reformed perspective throughout history, this affects the way that we preach, teach, and do church. This is because we don't believe we can change the minds of men, that salvation is not a will issue where I can convince someone to believe Jesus and follow him. This changes the way in which we preach because we are trust in the power of the gospel and not convincing men to change their minds. We believe that God has to do that through the Spirit.  
  
Reformed theology, when it comes to Calvinism, is not just thinking there are these five points. It actually shapes and molds the way we preach, the way we teach, and the way that we administer the gospel and evangelize.  
  
Justin Perdue: We believe that God saves sinners; we do not believe that we save ourselves with God's help. That has a lot of implications, and some of it were already mentioned by Jon. I don't feel like I need to get up and defend the five points of Calvinism and what it entails when I preach the gospel. Calvinism, as it is so-called, is really just part and parcel of the good news that tells of what Christ has accomplished, that he has done it, and that there is nothing left for sinners to do.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There's a famous quote by Spurgeon, and I think what he was trying to do was pull the title out of Calvinism. He literally says, "Calvinism is the gospel." Often people say, "I don't believe in a man. I just want to believe in the Bible." All we're saying is that historically speaking, this is what the Bible says. If you understand the context of where it comes from, it's just the explanation that we were arguing over: is it man or is it God? Calvin got in the middle of that argument.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's pure unadjusted gospel. Spurgeon's quote is saying that we don't believe we are preaching the gospel unless we are preaching what is nowadays called Calvinism. There's the first piece of how we understand Reformed theology. It is Calvinistic theology.  
  
Let's move on to a second major tenant or a second major piece of Reformed theology: covenantal theology. We recently did a five-part series, which is _An Introduction to Covenant Theology_ in which I think I made the statement, and I stand by this, that Reformed theology is covenant theology. These two things are inextricably linked. Even before we recorded this session, Jon and I were debating whether we would do covenantal theology or Calvinism first because that's how primary we understand this covenantal perspective to be.  
  
Just a brief word on the history of this before we consider the theology itself. As the Reformation happened in the 16th century, in the aftermath of that, the people who came out of the Reformation in the Reformed tradition all understood themselves to be covenantal. That was true whether you were a Presbyterian in terms of your, your polity and how you administered baptism. It also is true of Independents and true of particular Baptists. Broadly speaking, in the 17th century, all of those groups of people understood themselves to be covenantal. That is our heritage as Protestants here in America. That is certainly true for us, Jon, as we adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession.  
  
When we say covenant theology, broadly speaking, we don't just mean that there are covenants in the Bible. We don't just mean that God works through covenants. I think Christians everywhere agree with that statement. We are talking about a framework through which we understand and interpret Scripture.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Historically speaking, there have been developed systems or lenses or structures that we read the Bible from. Some of you may have heard of what's called a dispensational understanding of Scripture. Counteract to that is what we would say is covenantal. To Justin's point, we believe that the all of Scripture is the unfolding revelation. It's the story that's getting progressively revealed as each page goes through. What is it revealing? It's revealing the redemption of sinners. It is fixing what Adam and Eve destroyed. We would say that covenantalism is a redemptive-historic understanding of Scripture where all the Scripture is the unfolding story of redemption.  
  
A good example of this is if you were to go to Ephesians 1\. I love how Jimmy used this illustration in our covenant theology series: there is this quick introduction or the montage before the movie begins in the Avengers stories. Before you read Genesis 1, you need to know that there's this conversation that happened between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, where there was a promise made. These promises were made between the Father and the Son, that the Father would redeem for Himself a chosen people, that He would save them from their sins, and the Son would come. The Son committed to the father to obey the will, which is to be the replacement, the sacrifice, and the righteousness needed.  
  
Historically speaking, this is what the Reformers would say is what we call the covenant of redemption. It's a promise that was made to redeem sinners. From that, you have to ask how it is going to happen. How is He going to redeem sinners? Now you can go to Genesis 3 and begin to read. What you learn is what's called bicovenantalism or two covenants. You learn about the covenant of works and the covenant of grace. Then the whole structure of the Bible is the outflow of this one covenant: the covenant of redemption. It's now going to be accomplished right through the covenant of works and the covenant of grace.  
  
Justin, why don't you give us a fuller explanation of bicovenantalism?  
  
Justin Perdue: I agree with you and I just want to restate something that you just said. It's important for our understanding that the covenant of redemption - that was made amongst the Godhead before the world began - is what is accomplished in time and space through the covenant of works and the covenant of grace. All of history is an unfolding of the covenant of redemption in that respect. The covenant of works is the covenant that God makes with Adam in the garden of Eden. We would read about that in Genesis 1 and 2 where there are positives commands that God gives to Adam as to what he is to do with his life. There is a prohibition made which is that he is not to eat the fruit of a particular tree and there are sanctions placed upon him if he violates that covenant. The tree of life is there in the garden and it shows up again at the end of the story in the book of Revelation. We understand that as representative of the eternal life that Adam would have achieved and accomplished for his posterity, as well as for himself, had he kept the covenant. To use the language of the prophet Hosea, he transgressed the covenant. To use the language of Paul, Adam fell. He did not accomplish what God laid out for him. He violated the prohibition. The sanctions were rolling forth upon him from that point forward. Death came and sin entered the world. There was corruption and the like.  
  
This covenant of works, or this conditional covenant that God made with Adam, has been broken and things don't look good at this point. How then will the covenant of redemption be accomplished? That is through the covenant of grace, that God promises initially in Genesis 3:15, when He says to Adam and Eve that from the woman a seed will come who will crush the head of the serpent - the serpent being the devil. What happens from that point forward? We see the promise of the covenant of grace revealed further and further through Abraham, Moses, and David. And then we see the covenant of grace itself established through Jesus in the new covenant and in the covenant of grace.  
  
Unlike the covenant of works, the covenant of grace is an unconditional covenant where we do nothing. We receive what Christ has done and are counted righteous in him. Our sin is atoned for and removed from us, we are reconciled to God, and we are redeemed by grace through faith in Christ alone. That's the bicovenantal framework of works and grace. This is absolutely essential to Reformed theology.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The word grace is important to understand because grace means to receive unmerited favor. That means you are receiving gifts that you do not deserve or earn. When we say covenant of grace, God made a promise to give to His chosen people salvation and righteousness. He would cleanse them and make them holy through glorification, through this resurrected body. God promised that to Eve, clarified it to Abraham, and it is further seen through types and shadows - meaning that a type is something that is pointing you to something that is farther. The shadow is not the actual substance, but it is a reflection of the substance. The Mosaic law becomes this constant shadow.  
  
We use this illustration in the covenant theology series: when you are brought a menu with pictures of burritos, taquitos, and enchiladas, those are not the actual substance but a type of the substance. Then take that menu away because I don't need it anymore. Why? Because they're bringing out the actual antitype. They're bringing out the actual substance. The Old Testament is this unfolding story of God giving us more and more types so we can, with great confidence and clarity, that when the Messiah shows up, we can point to him and say that is the antitype we have been looking for. That's the actual substance that was promised to Eve, Abraham, Moses, David, and the prophets.  
  
When we read Scripture, we read it with the lens of the unfolding promise of the covenant of grace that is coming to us. How did we get the covenant of grace? We got it through the covenant of works, or as the New Testament would say the old covenant.  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to give another illustration of the types and shadows because this is helpful for people to understand what we're saying. A lot of times people read the Mosaic law and they'll read about the sacrificial system and the intricacies of these things - clean, unclean, and all those things. Ultimately, what is this about? If we think about the sacrificial system, it was given initially so that when people became unclean, they could be made ceremonially clean again. In that sense, it purified their flesh, to use the language of the writer to the Hebrews. But the writer of the Hebrew says the blood of bulls and goats that were sacrificed could never take away sins. That's Hebrews 10:4\. Then what was the sacrificial system ultimately about? It was about the One who would come to be the perfect sacrifice in the place of his people who actually would take away their sins.  
  
This is the language, not just the New Testament, but also in the Old Testament. God will say in Isaiah 43, "I am He who will blot out your transgressions for My own sake, and I'll remember your sins no more." Or how Psalm 103 says that our sins are removed from us as far as the east is from the West, and that God will no longer deal with us on the basis of our iniquity. That's what would happen through Christ. That's what all of Scripture is pointing us to. We understand everything in the Bible in light of its main point, which is God's plan of redemption accomplished through Jesus and then applied to us certainly by the work of the Holy Spirit.  
  
Last comment on covenant theology: the covenant of works and the covenant of grace piece. This statement is true: we are saved by works, just not our own. What we mean by that is that Jesus accomplishes or fulfills a covenant of works in the covenant of grace in order to accomplish the covenant of redemption. We are justified and we are declared righteous. We have to stand before God on the basis of Christ's works. It's not as though God doesn't require works or righteousness - it's just that Jesus has done that for us. A covenantal framework helps us understand exactly how that is the case, that everything required was fulfilled and then counted to us in the covenant of grace by faith.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We would say here at Theocast, and according to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, that the promises of the covenant of grace are given to us in Eve and Abraham, and then you see it in Moses, David, and then the prophets. But the actual establishment of it is in the new covenant. This is where you hear Paul referencing that we are part of this new covenant where we are regenerate, the Spirit lives within us, and we now have union with Christ.  
  
To throw a hat out there, there are slight differences between covenant theology. Everything up to this point, I know our Pedobaptist/Presbyterian brothers would agree with us that there's a covenant of redemption, bicovenantalism, covenant of work, and covenant of grace. When it comes down to the final application of some of those, historically there have been some differences. We'll leave that for another time in another podcast. I would say that the structure of understanding the Bible, which is the most important thing to understand, from a covenantal perspective, the unfolding story of God saving sinners through the story of redemption - that is what defines it as something very different than what's out there in the world, historically speaking. There are a lot of other systems. Some of them more popular than others. But when we say Reformed, we believe that when you approach Scripture, Scripture leads you to this. It's just pulled straight out of the text. We believe in a historic understanding of Scripture. You look at the grammar and from that, we see that there is this flow of the covenants. We're not putting it upon the text - we are arguing that it's coming from the text.  
  
Justin Perdue: It flows out of it.  
  
If number one was Calvinistic theology, in terms of our five points of Reformed theology, the second is covenant theology. The third, we would contend, is a confessional perspective or a confessional theology.  
  
Jon, why don't you kick us off with some thoughts on what it means to be confessional?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Sometimes when people hear this, they think we're saying that there's an authority greater than the Bible. "You're not sola scriptura. You aren't believing in the Bible alone." They think we have to have another document. We want to clarify that.  
  
I held that position when I was very young and in Bible college. "No creed but Christ." I think I even used that phrase. "All confessions are just smaller Catholic documents and they're not needed anymore." We tossed them all aside. What we did when we tossed aside all of the historic faith that has gone before, you don't realize the pool that you're swimming in. Often people step off into the deep end and end up drowning in heresy.  
  
Confessions have all come out of heresy. They're fighting back against the wrong unbiblical doctrines that have come up throughout the ages, and the confessions are designed to help give a unified answer to the historic understanding of Christian doctrine.  
  
There are the primary or most important points which one cannot deny. If you do deny them, you're not a Christian or you're not evangelical. Then there are secondary and tertiary points where you're going to have the different confessions disagree a little bit here. This is where I would pull in our Lutheran brothers. They are confessional. They fit into this very historically. They also fought a lot of the battles that we, as the Reformed, had fought: defining the nature of the gospel, defining the nature of justification and sanctification...we stand arm in arm with them. That would be the quick historical definition.  
  
Then there are different prominent confessions today. I'll let you jump in there and talk about what those are and how they apply to our context today.  
  
Justin Perdue: You made some good points there. Even the fact that heresy usually gives rise to confessions because theology and doctrine need to be clarified in terms of what is orthodox versus what is heterodox, or what is false doctrine.  
  
A misconception about confessional theology is that people assume that all we mean by that is we are adhering to a historic confession of faith. Certainly, it does mean that but it is more than just simply using a confession in our churches; it is a perspective and a posture where we understand that truth is at the heart of the Christian life, and a set of doctrines and truth claims that are to be trusted and rested in, and all of those doctrines and truth claims that need to be trusted and rested and center on Jesus Christ. They center on his Person and his work, what he has accomplished in our place, the nature of redemption, the nature of salvation. It's a very objective perspective, meaning it stands unaffected outside of us. We are looking always outside of ourselves to save what's wrong in us versus looking inward and hoping to find the ground of our assurance and peace. We are looking outside of ourselves and not looking inward to transformation and things like that.  
  
It is also a perspective that is grounded in something that is finished. In that sense, we'll use the word "declarative" a lot of times. It's something to be declared. It's over; salvation is done. It's so done that Jesus is sitting down in heaven and he's going to come back for us. We are not concerned primarily with what we need to be doing in order to be redeemed, but we are concerned with what we need to be trusting in and receiving that Christ has done and accomplished our redemption. It's a fundamentally different orientation. It's a different focus and a different posture. That would describe confessional theology versus the norm in evangelicalism.  
  
In evangelicalism, and certainly in the churches in the West, they hold a more pietistic perspective. Pietism is something we talk about a lot here: the focus is on you, you're looking inside, and you're concerned primarily with your life, your disciplines, and your performance. Christ is there, of course, and he's assumed, but he is oftentimes not the foreground emphasis or the focus - and that's something that confessionalism does as well.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When a Christian first comes to life, and if they didn't grow up in the church and don't have any biblical knowledge, the Bible is full of wonder and glory - and it's full of confusion for those who have no idea how to read it. They can start reading it and before you know it, they're going to Siri to say, "Hey Siri, why does God hate everybody in the Old Testament? What's with the shaving of the corner of their beards? What's with all of the dead animals?" That's what ends up happening within the second chapter of Deuteronomy - what happened here?  
  
What the confessions do for the new believer is that it hands them a historic document that has been verified from Scripture. These aren't documents that are above Scripture; they are the explanation of Scripture. They have been clarified and affirmed over hundreds of years that this is what we collectively agree that the word of God teaches. The way I use it, even in my own church, is I tell people to take it home to address their questions. Who is God? How does he save? What is sanctification? What is the church? What is baptism? What is the Lord's Table? What is church discipline? How do we understand church membership? All of these are going to be given in simple paragraph explanations with verses underneath them to help you understand collectively how it is that we should know who God is, how we should live with one another, and how we should govern our lives in that way. Otherwise, you're left up to all kinds of interpretation of God's word. The confessions help give us bumpers to keep us moving in the right direction through God's word so that we don't end up being heretics or trapped in sin.  
  
Justin Perdue: Confessional theology, in that sense, is just Jude 3\. You know, it's a, it's a passing down of the faith once for all delivered to the saints. The confessions chalk the field theologically. They're guardrails to keep us from heading into the ditches. They are also a great lesson for us in understanding that theology is best done corporately, not individually. This is something that is prevalent in our day: people are not as confessional, but they end up following the doctrine of theology of one man, or the doctrine of theology of one church. "I'm a follower of this person," or, "I like this guy's theology," or, "This guy wrote that book." It is basically the framework through which one understands things now. That's a lot more precarious and dangerous than it is to look back to documents that were produced by oftentimes large groups of people that have stood the test of time.  
  
One last comment before we transition to our next piece: when we say confessional, underneath that, which is even more foundational historically, is being creedal. We are creedal Christians as well, meaning we adhere to the ancient creeds of the church. The three ancient creeds that we would adhere to most notably are the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. That's where we have overlaps. Any orthodox Christian throughout history would have affirmed those creeds. Then we have specific confessions that might distinguish us from our Presbyterian brothers, our Lutheran brothers, or our Anglican brothers and sisters. It's useful stuff, it keeps us safe, and it guards us from error.  
  
We've gone through the three C's: Calvinistic theology, covenantal theology, and confessional theology. They are all a piece of what it means to be reformed. What would we say is next if we were trying to explain to somebody who is new to this?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Since we've hit this point on confessionalism, all four other points are seen in our confession. The confession really does help provide for us a Calvinistic and covenantal theology. The next two are Law-gospel distinction and ordinary means. The confession points all of these out for you through Scripture: God is sovereign in salvation, and He accomplishes this through covenantalism or through covenants. There is a distinct understanding between the Law and the gospel. The way in which the church interacts with that is what we call ordinary means. We get this from specifically the Reformed confessionals: the Belgic Confession, the Westminster Confession, the 1689 Confession, and the Savoy Declaration would be the ones that we would see those in.  
  
Law-gospel distinction is I think one of the most important parts of understanding the Bible because there is more confusion that happens when it comes down to the Law and the gospel. A lot of pietism and lot of people who are in bondage to legalism happens when we don't fully understand how the Bible has been structured - that is, as a message of Law and a message of the gospel.  
  
Justin Perdue: When we say Law, we are talking about anything in Scripture that we are told to do or any command that is given. In particular, this is when we are told to do something for a reward: do this and you will live. That's Law. In a simple way, "do" is Law. But then when we are told in Scripture to make the distinction about things that have been done for us by Jesus, and that's the gospel. When it comes to Law, we do things for a reward. When it comes to the gospel, we receive what has been done for us by faith. That distinction is critical for a number of reasons. The Law says do this and live, but the gospel says Jesus has done it, now live in him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When it's Law, it's not best effort or above the rest - it has to be perfect. The Law demands absolute perfection from the beginning to the end without failure ever. It's not that you eventually get there; it has to be perfect from day one.  
  
Justin Perdue: We see this in a couple of ways pointedly in the Bible. In the covenant of works that God made with Adam, we saw that one transgression wrecked it. It was over. But then think about Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, when he says to his audience that their righteousness needs to exceed that of the Pharisees and the scribes who were phenomenal at keeping the Law, at least outwardly. He applies the Law to the hearts of the people. He illustrates that with adultery, murder, and what the command says that if you are unable to keep the Law in your heart, then you have broken the Law. Then he says in Matthew 5 that you must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. The law does not grade on a curve: it is all or nothing. You will keep it perfectly or you will face judgment. That's critical for our understanding of what the Law requires and what the Law is in Scripture over and against what the gospel provides.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We have to clarify the gospel. It's good news, and the good news is that this goes back to our understanding of how God saves. The gospel is the good news that God saves sinners by His sovereign will and decree, and by His power. He comes in and He changes their hearts. He brings them from death to life.  
  
What's the promise of the new covenant? The promise of the new covenant is that God will come in, rip out their heart of stone, and He will put in a heart of flesh. Then God will put the Law on their hearts and He will cause them to walk in it. The good news is that God saves sinners, and then He calls them to come to Him. The good news is that God can save you. There is only one requirement that is put upon the sinner: to believe.  
  
Justin Perdue: You hear the language these days of the demands of the gospel and what the gospel requires of us. We do and we want to scream from the rooftops that there's one: believe. Trust. Receive.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When we hear gospel, we need to hear that God is saving sinners. You can't save yourself. What Paul says is that the Law becomes a mirror for us. It's for us to look into to see our sin, to see where we have failed God, and to see where we need a Savior. The Law can never and has never saved anyone, nor was that ever designed to save anyone. Because you are born in Adam, a sinner, the Law cannot redeem you. The Law was designed to show you how much you need Jesus.  
  
When you hear the gospel, the Bible says the Spirit does His work. He transforms your heart, you then believe, and then you repent. Then you become the follower of Jesus Christ. You're now his slave and he is your Master. This is great news because this means sin can own you no more. Nothing can own you anymore because you are owned by the gracious, kind, and loving Savior who is now your Master. That's the good news of the gospel.  
  
When we talk about a Law-gospel distinction, maybe we need to give an illustration of where those get mixed and how we have to keep them apart.  
  
Justin Perdue: A brief thought on repentance really quickly. The biblical word "metanoia" means a change of mind. To be very clear, repentance is something that God does for us and does to us; He repents us, we don't repent ourselves. What is the change of mind about? It's about God, ourselves, what God requires, where we stand before Him, and what we need.  
  
The Law is a big piece of how God repents us because God crushes us with the Law and what it requires. We are ruined by that. Because of this, we are driven to Christ in repentance and faith. I would contend that biblically speaking, repentance and faith go together. You can't separate the two because it is all a piece of what God is doing in us: He repents us and grants us faith.  
  
On how the Law-gospel distinction is collapsed or confused, I'm happy to give a scriptural example that is often abused. The best one that I can think of is the rich young man. In Matthew's account, this Jewish man comes to Jesus and asks him, "What work must I do to inherit eternal life?" In Luke's account he just says, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus looks at him and he says, "Keep the commandments," and proceeds to list several of them. The young man then says that he has done all that since he was young. Jesus responds by saying, "One thing you still lack. Sell everything you have, give them to the poor, then come and follow me." The young man goes away dejected and sorrowful. What's going on there? What is going on is that this man thinks he has kept the Law, and what Jesus is doing is he is asking this man to prove his love for God and his love for neighbor. The Law of God is summed up in what? Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. When Jesus asks this young man to prove that, he can't - and it crushes him. Jesus has turned up the temperature. He has dumped the full weight of the Law on this young man's conscience. This young man is undone.  
  
Now the disciples hear this and see what's going on. Remember that in their minds - think covenant with Israel - God blesses people with riches, possessions, and the like for their obedience to the Law because that's what God had done in his national covenant with Israel. They're thinking my goodness the man has wealth because he's obedient. This means that he's lived the good life. If he can't be saved, who can be saved? Christ says with man, it's impossible, but with God, it's possible.  
  
The way that this text is often preached is you need to surrender all: you need to be willing to surrender everything and then follow Christ if you're going to be saved. There's this qualifier put on saving faith that you've got to be willing to do with that young man was not willing to do. That's not the point; the point is you can't do this. The young man thought he had kept the Law, but Jesus was saying he hasn't and that he is going to show him that he hasn't. Jesus was showing that the young man needed what was standing in front of him, which was Jesus himself. That's the point of that passage.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This happens a lot in Scripture where you see commands and you see instructions. There are many times when Jesus was asked what people must do to be saved or, or sinners come to him, and he doesn't give them gospel. Gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ saves sinners by his work alone. When Jesus says, “You must do this work," that's not good news but bad news. To leave father and mother, forsake all, and follow Jesus is not good news. That's bad news because no one can do it - not on their own and not fully. It always requires God's power to accomplish it.  
  
Where you see a collapsing of the Law and the gospel is when we see obedience passages. When we are called to obey. This is going to lead into our next section on the three uses of the Law. When we are called to obey, do these things as a church, or we would even say the moral law that's brought over, if you understand to do those unto salvation, you are now collapsing the Law of requirement and the gospel.  
  
For those who have been saved, Paul tells us there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. By faith, we have all the benefits of Christ - our union with Christ being adopted as children - we are safe. There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus.  
  
Now, being a part of the family of God, there are ways in which we are to conduct ourselves. We are told that these things are important. If we don't conduct ourselves in these ways, the church has a structure called church discipline where we are to go in and lovingly care for and bring each other back under this loving kindness that God has. You can never look at obedience being either the results or the requirement of your salvation; you have just collapsed the good news and the Law. The Law and the good news of the gospel always have to be separate because otherwise, salvation is by works in some form whether it's keeping salvation or earning salvation.  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to use a term really quickly that I hope will be clarifying for people. There are people who mean well; their intentions are good and we would never impugn their motivations. We call them Biblicists - they want to take the Bible seriously on its own terms. But often what they end up doing is introduce a mystery and attention into Scripture where it does not exist. A Biblicist would take things that are clearly taught in the Bible and somewhat pit them against each other. For example: on the one hand, we are saved by grace, through faith in Christ alone. On the other hand, we will go to hell if we do these certain things. For the Biblicist, the mystery is how both of these things could be true. To this we would say that there's not a mystery there. What has happened is you have collapsed and confused categories of Law and gospel. Law-gospel distinction can help us understand how we're saved by grace, through faith, in Christ alone and yet, the writers in the New Testament will say the sexually immoral will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This has everything to do with that distinction between the Law and the gospel, but also with respect to the three uses of the Law and how they have been historically defined. All of that can bring a lot of clarity and relief for people, as well as a greater understanding of what's being talked about in Scripture.  
  
In the members' podcast, we'll define the three uses of the Law as they have been historically understood. We also plan to talk about our fifth point of Reformed theology, which is an ordinary means of grace understanding of the Christian life, and even of the way of growth and sanctification in the Christian life.  
  
If you are unfamiliar with Theocast and the members' podcast, you can find out more information about our membership and the podcast at our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. By way of an announcement, we plan to offer the members podcast today for free so that you can continue to track with us as we define these five points of Reformed theology.  
  
Jon and I are making our way to the members' podcast. We will talk with you over there.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-five-points-of-reformed-theology-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-five-points-of-reformed-theology/)

---

### MEMBERS: Our Weakness, Sex, and the Gospel (Transcript)

*Published: September 23, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel-transcript*
*Tags: biblicalsexuality, Gospel, human weakness, marriage, purity culture, saint and sinner, Sex*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members podcast. We always liked to begin this time by giving a very heartfelt and sincere thank you to all of you who have partnered with Theocast in this way. We want to continue spreading this great news of Jesus Christ and his sufficiency in the place of sinners, as well as his work in our place that really does offer us rest and peace and assurance. We would not be able to do what we're doing without your partnership and without your help. Thank you very much for the ways that you enable this message to go to more and more people. Continue to partner with us and pray alongside us that we can continue to herald this message.  
  
Our brother Jimmy Buehler said this: personal Bible reading is not necessarily the litmus test for being a mature and faithful Christian. Thoughts?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: This is where I want to go with this. As I was trained in ministry in my younger years, the undercurrent understanding was that it was my job as a pastor to get people to mature in their faith - and that's not a bad thing. However, the litmus test or the unspoken barometer of whether or not people were mature in their faith was how I can get people to systematically and individually read their Bibles consistently. It was almost as if my job as a pastor was to set the temperature in such a way that it's my role, my job, and my aim to get people into these systematic, individualized reading plans like that was somehow the end in and of itself.  
  
Again, let me be clear: I think it's a good thing, under a proper understanding through a proper lens in a corporate sense, for people to read their Bibles. It is a gift. But if that is the end all be all, what sort of danger does that bring with it?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Let's put it this way: if one guy is doing 30 minutes, is it better for me to do an hour? If one guy is doing an hour, is better for me to do two hours?  
  
At what point do you finally find that a Christian is mature? Let's say they consistently have done their devotions without fail, even when they're sick, for 30 years. Is that a mature Christian? I know people who have read their Bibles their entire life and they can't seem to apply the second command.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Love your neighbor. Greatest command.  
  
Unfortunately, I know of some individuals, and I'm sure everybody listening does, who religiously read their Bibles each and every day but are some of the most intolerable church people - mean, cunning, divisive. Clearly something is amiss and I don't think it's the Bible.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'll be a little bit more pointed here. This is where I would say your Bible reading is of no value.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's exactly what we mean - to what end? If somebody came to me and said, "I read my Bible because it is for the benefit of me trusting in Christ, seeing how Christ has worked on my behalf, and because I feel like I have things to offer for the benefit of the greater body of Christ." Praise the Lord. By all means.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If it makes you more loving, patient, kind, and gracious, praise God because that's the point.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: To me, that would be the barometer. Who is the faithful and mature Christian? It is the person within the corporate body of the church who is loving, who is kind, who is gracious, who seeks to serve those around them, who in their daily vocation and callings in life quietly work and serve to the glory of God and the good of their neighbor.  
  
Justin Perdue: In addition to what you guys are saying in terms of reading the Bible to benefit your brothers and sisters, I think it's entirely good and right for people to read their Bible in the context in which we've already described. I'm thinking I want to read the Bible, and as I'm learning these frameworks, I want to understand Scripture better so that I can then help others be encouraged in Christ. I can help others see the utter faithfulness of God revealed in this grand story of redemption so that I can extol the mercy and the grace and the power of Jesus better. I think that's a great thing. Not so that I can seem smart or insightful, or not so I can browbeat people with my Bible IQ, or not so that I can guilt and shame others because they don't know as much as me or they're not as fateful or diligent as me, but because I can legitimately aim to fan the flame of their faith and trust in Christ as I am learning to have a better handle on what God is doing and has done in redemption.  
  
Another way to highlight the fact that we associate personal Bible reading with faithfulness is when somebody uses the word "discipleship" or "discipling". If not the first thing, one of the top two things that anybody would think of when someone says "I'm serious about discipleship" is personal devotional time and serious accountability. That's usually what people mean. "We need to be about discipleship in this church," meaning we need to be serious about our personal devotional lives and we need to set up systems of accountability. It's indicative of a larger systemic issue that we equate being mature, faithful, godly, and all those things with your personal disciplines and regiments. Not to say that disciplines and regiments are bad, but it's not a one-to-one correlation.  
  
How do you define what a godly and mature Christian is? Disciplines are not going to be at the top of the list. They're going to be people who are loving their neighbor, they're trusting Christ, they're all kinds of good for others, they're gracious, they're hospitable, they're compassionate, and they're pointing people to Christ. We could go on and on. They're faithful employees in that they show up to work every day and they do their job. They love their spouses and their kids.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Not one of us here opposes the idea when we are commanded in Scripture to discipline ourselves for the sake of godliness. All three of us do this. All three of us have to discipline ourselves because the flesh is constantly battling us and wanting us to go towards temptation. There are moments where we have to do things to suppress that and we use the corporate body. Normally when people hear discipline for the sake of godliness, what they're hearing is that my discipline makes me godly. No, it's the exact opposite. For the sake of godliness, because you are secure in Christ and are declared righteous, therefore fight against the flesh. You're not earning godliness because God sees you as godly - now discipline yourself as a response to that.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's not a merit badge.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say to obey patience and kindness and mercy towards others - that's going to require discipline.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something that I like to say to our church constantly and consistently is God calls us to live out who He has already declared us to be in Christ. God calls us to live holy lives. When we say holy, we mean not to chase after things that are going to destroy you. Don't chase after your neighbor's wife. Why? Because that's going to destroy your family and it's going to destroy his family. Most likely it's going to spread like gangrene in your church. You discipline yourself to say, "I want to have eyes only for my wife. She is the standard of beauty that I am I am disciplining myself for." It's for the betterment of the body. It's for the betterment of your neighbors around you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You should not use discipline as a means to determine whether you're a good Christian or not. What you're then doing is saying that your self-righteousness is what is acceptable before God. No. Because you're acceptable before God, it frees you to now work and discipline. Don't ever assume God is pleased with you because you are more disciplined than the person next to you. That is a dangerous road to go down.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Nobody will ever be perfectly self-disciplined.  
  
Jon Moffitt: How much discipline is enough?  
  
Justin Perdue: When you're perfect is the answer, I guess. Nobody can ever define that.  
  
On the whole quantifying and always measuring stuff, we just need to stop it because you cannot measure these kinds of things like you do a child's height against the wall. Whenever we aim to quantify disciplines or we aim to quantify sanctification in any way, I would argue that nothing good comes of it.  
  
The identity thing matters, too. When we're told in the New Testament that we are a people holy to the Lord, what does that really mean? It means that we have been set apart, we've been marked out as the people of God, now we're in Christ, and that's our identity now.  
  
The posture of the apostles is that we are set apart to the Lord, we are the redeemed, and now here's how the redeemed lives. Let's go about making these things the things that we pursue; let's go about running from these other things because they'll wreck our lives. It's actually quite simple: if God says it's good, let's pursue it; if God says it'll wreck our lives, let's run from it. Let's trust Christ as we do that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Going back to what I said in the regular portion about the whole idea of practical application: as much as we want to make the Bible practical, the imperative commands that we see in the epistles are actually far more practical than we want them to be. When Paul is going, "Husbands, brothers, come here. Love your wife. Serve her." I don't know how much more practical you want me to be. I don't need to give you some like long exegetical argument - that's already in Ephesians 1-3 and a bit of 4\. Now I get to Ephesians 5 and it's telling husbands to love their wives and be patient with them. As Peter says, live with your wife in an understanding way? I don't need to do a five-part marriage series. I can just say, "Guys, love your wife. Don't be a knucklehead."  
  
Justin Perdue: Don't be a jerk and try to understand her. Think about how you would want somebody to treat you. It's all very simple and very practical. It's very boots on the ground.  
  
Jon Moffitt: On the flip side, sometimes people in the past have listened to Theocast and they assume and there's no discipline needed. It's almost antinomian - you guys live however you want, you don't need to discipline your life - and that is not what we're saying. What we're saying is that your standing and favor before God are not determinative by your discipline. That would mean that we are on a merit-based system. We are not saying that discipline is of no value - it's just different for this reason. Most people think I need to be disciplined so that I'm a good Christian and that God is pleased with me and I can grow spiritually. Whereas Paul says your discipline is for the benefits of others. You suppressing the flesh builds up the body and it encourages them, it strengthens them, and it keeps division out of the church.  
  
What I get frustrated with is that people are so proud of how well they've been doing with their disciplines at home but they can't seem to make it to church. Their finances are all disarray and they can't seem to give to the church. Discipline your life so that it benefits the body. So you can actually be involved. You can show up - you have time. You're so proud of the fact that you've been so disciplined at home in your personal devotional life, but yet you can't serve the church. That does not equate to me of what the New Testament is saying.  
  
Justin Perdue: The purpose of disciplines in that regard would be the other things that were exhorted to in the New Testament, namely love and good works for the building of the church.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We tend to over-spiritualize that which is very practical and we tend to make very practical that which is actually very spiritual.  
  
Dads, don't exacerbate your kids. Wives, show respect to your husbands. Husbands, love your wives. Don't cheat. Don't steal from your employer.  
  
Justin Perdue: Don't avenge yourselves. Get a job so that you can provide for your family and you can actually give to others who are in need. It's just so incredibly simple.  
  
We take something that's meant to be telling us the story of redemption, of how God is at work to save us, and then we turn them into principles - here are the 19 things that we can take away from the life of Elijah, etc. Maybe at a secondary or tertiary level, we can apply some of that. But there are a lot more going on there that we need to be concerned with about how God is saving a people - and we're a part of that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If you're going to read yourself into the Bible, read yourself into the person that you don't want to read yourself into: the cowering Israelites, the wandering Israelites, the grumbling Israel - that's who you are. If you want to read yourself into that, that's who you are. You're not Moses or David or Aaron or any of the heroes - and I use the word "heroes" loosely. It's better to read yourself as the villain who gets redeemed.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We do this by nature. You just have to watch the news with everything that's going on. We'll take someone who has this one moment of heroism and we think this person's great. Then you look into their lives and he's been beating his wife, he hasn't been paying child support, etc.  
  
I look at that in the Old Testament and we do this with Abraham. With Abraham and Isaac, we say we need to have the faith of Abraham. Did you mean that moment when he lied about his wife twice? Or when he went and had a baby with his servant because he didn't believe God was going to fulfill it through his wife? Is that the kind of faith we're talking about? He does one great thing and we forget about all the dumb things he has done.  
  
Justin Perdue: His faith was imperfect but the thing about Abraham is that God made a promise to him and God counted faith to him as righteousness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As little as it was.  
  
Justin Perdue: "You're trusting in the promised seed. You're trusting in the promises I'm making to you. I am counting you righteous." Then God commences to fulfill those promises and save His people. Abraham is upheld as a pattern for us in those ways. We should actually be comforted by Abraham's weakness and see that we, just like him, are dependent upon the One who justifies the ungodly.  
  
To put a bow on this conversation, our encouragements to you is to join a local church where the word of God is rightly preached, where you can experience the ordinary means of grace, and where you can experience the fellowship of the saints - then approach your Bibles in that context. As you go to your Bible, look for the faithfulness of God, look for the sufficiency of Christ, and continue to aim to pour yourself out in love and good works for the upbuilding of the church.  
  
That's our general exhortation to you, our members. We love you. We thank you for listening in on this conversation. We hope that it was helpful to you in some ways. Thank you again for your partnership with us. You mean a lot to us and we couldn't do what we're doing without you. We will talk with you again next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel/)

---

### Our Weakness, Sex, and the Gospel (Transcript)

*Published: September 23, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel-transcript*
*Tags: biblicalsexuality, Gospel, human weakness, marriage, purity culture, saint and sinner, Sex*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Before we get started, we want to give parents a heads up that we are going to be talking about something that you may not have had conversations with your children yet. You may want to use this opportunity to listen to the podcast before you do. We do know that several families listened to the Theocast, and we're thankful for that.  
  
Today, Justin and I are going to be covering weakness, sexuality, and the gospel, and how often our culture is trying to press upon us that if we hold any other position, then that position is barbaric. We also talk about how we can come in using the gospel to present something that is refreshing that leads people out of bondage and back into joy in Christ.  
  
In our members' podcast, Justin pulls out a very interesting proverb where we are warned that if we engage in sexual deviancy, that we can carry around that shame. How do we understand that from a covenantal reformed perspective? Also, how has the church has failed in explaining God's purpose for sexuality?  
  
Today is one of those subjects that are heavy. There is a lot that could be said, and we're going to be challenged to try and keep this within the allotted time that we have.  
  
Justin Perdue: This introduction to the topic might be a little bit longer than normal. I've already green-lighted Jon to jump in and trample on me at any point that he feels like he needs to.  
  
This came from a sermon that I preached recently in our church. I'm preaching in the early chapters of Proverbs. There's a lot in Proverbs about sex and our sexual lives. Sometimes the church is thought of as being this prudish place where we don't talk about sex and it's taboo. The reason that's the case is not because of the Bible. The Bible is not silent on these matters, and God has revealed a number of things to us in His word, including what we might call a biblical sexual ethic. By that, I mean that there is a framework in which we are to express ourselves sexually and we are to enjoy the great gift that sex is. That framework or that context is the covenant of marriage. It's one man and one woman in a covenant relationship. We get that from God's word and we believe that it's genuinely good for us because God has told us that this is how we're to live together, and this is how we will flourish.  
  
Before we launch into this conversation, I want to be clear that biblical sexual ethic, and it's important to say this in our current cultural moment, is not about being holier than thou. It is not about power or oppression. So much of the rhetoric and dialogue in our culture today is about those things - it's always this framework of power and oppression. This is not about that. This is not about imperialism or some sort of patriarchal way of thinking.  
  
It's clear that in our culture, we've reached a moment where a biblical sexual ethic is seen as savage or barbaric. There are a number of ways to illustrate this. I've mentioned this in my sermon intro the other day: there's a new hit song by an artist named Cardi B called WAP. I don't need to go into what that even stands for. The listeners could search it if they wanted to. If you look at the non-edited lyrics, it's a tough read. There are a number of things that song says but it's being celebrated by many as a sex-positive anthem for women.  
  
I bring that up to illustrate a point that it sounds insane to the modern ear when we limit the expression of our sexuality or that we would ever say that there is an appropriate framework in which it is to be expressed. It has always been this way in the history of humanity, but the religion of our current cultural moment certainly says something like this: look inside yourself, see who you are, go be that person, and don't let anybody stop you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Which it should not be. To Justin and I, we wholeheartedly agree that this is not a surprise to either of us. The Christian should not be surprised because the Bible makes it very clear that through the fall of Adam, all kinds of sin shall come and it has happened for thousands of years. This isn't the fault of the United States; this is the fall of man.  
  
Justin Perdue: This is fallen human culture.  
  
Let's be really clear: sex is really good. It's a great gift from God. We may talk about this more later, but there has been a tendency in the church to depict sex as a less than good thing. This has been very unhelpful because that is not at all how the Bible presents it.  
  
Sex, as good as it is, is powerful. Like any good and powerful thing, whenever we use it in a way that God has not designed it for, it becomes very self-destructive and it produces unbelievable amounts of pain in people's lives. If we just look around within the church and within the culture, people are hurting because of this. The culture today thinks that a way that we can mitigate that pain is to stop everybody from ever saying anything about what we might be doing sexually, get everybody to applaud what we're doing in how we seek to express ourselves, and get everybody to agree that nothing that I'm doing sexually could ever be wrong. We think that somehow this will mitigate pain - but it doesn't work.  
  
If you look at fallen man, there is within all of us a haunting suspicion that God's Law is right and we don't want it to be right in our flesh. In addition to what I just said about mitigating pain, we think that we can somehow keep God's Law from accusing and condemning us if we just speak really loudly over it. Or we think that we can somehow escape the accusing and the condemning nature of God's Law against our sin by running as far and as fast as possible away from it, just screaming and celebrating our freedom as we go. It's very clear that it doesn't work.  
  
The difference between the church and the world is not that we have our house in order sexually. The difference is we understand that we do not have our house in order, and we are trusting Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We should understand it.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. I'm just going to say it for the sake of presentation.  
  
The difference between the church, rightly thinking, is that we know we don't have our house in order and we trust Christ for that. We're looking to Jesus for his atoning work that has satisfied for our sin. We're looking to Jesus for his obedience and his righteousness that are counted to us by faith. That is the only way that we can actually stop God's Law from accusing us and condemning us. If we seek to silence God's Law or to stop that accusing and condemning that God's Law rightly does to us any other way, we will fail. It is only in Christ. He is the only answer.  
  
Jesus and his work for the Christian allows the church to stare God's Law in the face and assess what it actually says to us about our sexual lives. Christ has paid for the failings, God has adopted us, we've been made righteous in Jesus, and his holiness is counted to us. We're safe. Then we strive by the power of the Holy Spirit to conform our lives to what God says is good. That's how the church approaches this issue.  
  
There's a lot more that I could say, but I think that's a long introduction. Let's chop it up a little about God's Law, sex, the church, and everything.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That was a very helpful introduction.  
  
One of the things that I see in our current culture - and when people call it savage and barbaric, this is why - is how Christians have failed in the communication of pointing out the error of sexuality in our cultures. In Genesis 6, God tells Noah of what the sexual ethic shall be for all of humanity. This is not for Christians but for all of humanity: they are to procreate - one man and one woman together.  
  
This is part of understanding Kingdom theology, and VanDrunen's book is helpful here: there are only two commands given to all in this context and those are bloodshed and sexual ethic. When an inappropriate sexual culture begins to revolutionize, what they don't understand is that they're falling into bondage. Christianity comes in and says nowhere else in our society do we want to try and identify ourselves by a particular act. You will see people identify themselves as human beings, and then they will explain what they do as a human being. I might be a politician, a lawyer, a doctor, a stay-at-home mom, a mechanic, or whatever it is you do. No one wants you to accept what they do for a living as who they are, but they want you to accept what they do, which is the unacceptable, and their conscience knows it. The Law in their hearts knows that it's wrong.  
  
I watched a video recently of parents who are concerned because of certain videos popping up on their children's iPads. They're really trying to make normal for our culture the things that the Bible has said is bondage. It is enslaving. It is anti-God's nature. It is anti-God's Law. As Christians, when we come in and speak to this, we need to understand that we are trying to free people from bondage. We are not here to condemn them but we are here to preach God's Law in its full weight - but we do so with grace and mercy. Because if it were not for the grace of God, we too would fall into the same bondage. We as Christians have and often do fall in bondage to sin. Galatians 6:1 comes in and says to restore such a one with a spirit of gentleness lest you to fall into sin.  
  
I would say on both sides, our culture has failed in pressing in on this, though we shouldn't be shocked. Christianity has failed in our response. We don't need to get up and preach angrily at these people, but we need get up and preach at them with a spirit of compassion and mercy. Preaching angrily would look like this: "Oh, but you don't understand. You were trying to justify your position and all we're saying is you're actually in bondage and you don't know."  
  
Justin Perdue: Many listening to the podcast will be familiar with the term "purity culture". Purity culture was, and still is, a thing in the evangelical church. The '90s and the 2000s might have been the peak of this.  
  
Jon Moffitt: _I Kissed Dating Goodbye_ by Joshua Harris came out around this time.  
  
Justin Perdue: The real emphasis on a different dating culture in the church over and against the secular dating culture, and other things like that. In its poor moments, the purity culture rhetoric could almost be reduced to something like this for a younger person, in particular: you are a good Christian if you have a quiet time, if you do not look at pornography, and if you don't have sex. That is the definition of a good and faithful Christian. In that context, there is a lack of the gospel and a lot of confusion over Law and gospel. It was and even still has been harmful to people - maybe that's the wrong word, maybe that's too strong - but it has been confusing and less than helpful for many. A number of people have been burned by it.  
  
Within that purity culture context, it's threatening, it's always negative, sex is presented as bad and dirty and evil, and it is this thing that is to be avoided at all costs. At a minimum, we can say it confuses the gospel and throws a lot of clutter on top of it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Unfortunately, for the first eight years of my ministry here in Tennessee, I did college and young adults which means I did four to eight weddings every summer. In these premarital counseling moments I would have with these couples, what I began to realize is that they had never really been given the positive side of what intimacy was designed for. All they're told is not to do it until they get married, and that's it. I would be counseling couples after they got married and there would be so many complications in their marriage. I've had conversations with couples where they have a hard time enjoying sex because it's only been negative. They are thinking, "How can something that has been so negative for 20-something years of my life now be a positive?"  
  
There is a failure there because we are trying to prevent something. The gospel always comes in and says something is bondage and dangerous, but it doesn't leave it there unless it is always that way. There are certain things in our life that are always bad and there are certain things in our life that are always good, but sexuality is one of these things where the context absolutely determines whether it's bondage or joy, whether it's pleasing to God or offensive to God. What we get right is it is displeasing and bondage - and it really is bondage. Paul says some very pointed things about the body and what it brings upon our body and the danger of that. It's not like telling a lie. Intimacy outside of marriage is very damaging not only to yourself, but also to the other parties involved.  
  
When it comes to the positive, this is where we have failed as a church. There are certain pastors in the last 10 years that have tried to make it positive and in my opinion, all they did is make it dirty. It wasn't helpful. It was comedy for them. It was just a way to shock jock people into thinking they're cool because they can say the word "sex" in church and it doesn't bother them. That's not helpful either because you've opened up another can of worms. It's not designed for the church.  
  
I'll give Tim Keller the credit here with his book _The Meaning of Marriage_. It was very helpful for me in trying to describe to people what is going on as it relates to the word of God and the view we should have on sexuality. The way it’s described is selflessness versus selfishness. The world only gives you selfish intimacy: you can choose however it is that you want to do something and it's always you choosing what's best for you. If you look at the New Testament and Paul's encouragement to the believer that the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church, he's giving an illustration of selflessness. Selflessness becomes the priority of the marriage, not only outside of the bedroom but inside of the bedroom, where it is not about what I must do and what's best for me, but it is about how do I make this person feel loved and cared for as Christ loves and cares for his church. So all of marriage changes, including the marriage bed.  
  
What I try and do even with my own children is to help them see the joy of serving and loving my wife, as their mother, and how they can look and anticipate how much joy there is. It requires a lot of grace on my wife's side because I'm not perfect at this, but my ambition is to selflessly love her and care for her needs in all of our marriage, and this includes intimacy. That's just so foreign to Christianity. You don't hear that.  
  
Justin Perdue: We were talking about purity culture and how bad it is. One tendency that we all have as human beings is to swing on pendulums and overreact to things. Something that we can do, if we're not careful, is we can throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's good for us to maintain that purity and uprightness is a thing when it comes to our sexual lives, and righteousness and holiness are to be sought after.  
  
One of the big issues in this arena, like in so many others in the church, is the presentation, the tone, and the tenor of the conversation about sex and about how we are to live sexually. Rather than it being this condescending, exacting, threatening stuff, and just condemnation being hurled every place, it's better for us in particular as preachers, but just as Christians in the church, to use "we" language and to acknowledge our collective weakness and the fact that we all are weak in this area.  
  
Our cravings and our lust in this particular arena demonstrate, without any question and beyond any shadow of a doubt, our corruption and our fallenness. It's important for us to acknowledge that there is not one person saved by Jesus who, put in the right set of circumstances, would not fall sexually. Lest we have this holier than thou, or this condescending tone in our discussions about this, we need to acknowledge that sex is the undefeated champion of the world. Nobody gets in the ring with sex and wins. This helps us to then make sense of something like Proverbs and the language that Solomon will use to his proverbial son. In chapter 6, he'll ask this rhetorical question: can a man carry fire around close to his chest without getting his clothes burned? Of course not. Solomon's wisdom in some senses could be summarized to his sons with respect to sexual sin. Don't go there. Don't go near it because we all know what's going to happen. But that's often not how it's discussed.  
  
In Proverbs 7:6 and following, there is this compelling and gripping presentation that Solomon offers to his son. He says he looks out through the lattice of his house and sees this young man in the street. The young man is walking around and this woman comes to him, saying all these things about how she has made her vows and sacrifices that day. She then says she has come to find him and now she has, that her husband is gone and she has prepared her bed. "Let's take our fill of love until morning." This young man goes with her and Solomon's words are sobering. He says, "All at once he follows her as an ox goes to the slaughter." Or as a stag is caught fast until an arrow pierces its liver, or as a bird rushes into a snare. He does not know that it will cost him his life.  
  
God's Law is good and it has different uses. We certainly see the first use in all of this that we would be driven to Christ. We have all transgressed God's Law; none of us had kept it. How desperately do I need a Savior? For some people listening, their need for Christ will be more obvious in no other areas of their lives than when it comes to this sexual corruption.  
  
The second use of God's Law is to restrain our wickedness. This is basically Solomon saying, "Son, if you do this, it will destroy your life." We need that. We need to be reminded that this will not go well. Our tendency, and this is Satan's ammo as well, is we always see the gratification that will come if we act on the desire. What we are not mindful of is the emptiness that follows it immediately and the fact that nothing but pain will ensue. Sin is never worth it. That's essentially the message of Proverbs 7\. "This is not worth it, son." This is a much more compassionate presentation than what you typically hear though.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To say that there are no uses of the Law is like to play with fire and assume you're not going to get burned. The Law is good; it is right. As David says, he loves the Law of God because the Law of God can and should be used to protect us from bondage. But the motivation to pursue God's law comes from a position of not to gain the seed of child. This is where we get very upset. I get upset with Law preachers who say, "Do this or else you shall not be the child of God." It is the Father's hand on the shoulder of the son saying, "Dear son, I love you. Because I love you, here are things that will absolutely ensnare you and lie to you and will leave you empty. I'm guiding you. I'm giving you a light unto your feet." This is the way that the Law is described. It's a light unto our feet. It's a direction for our path.  
  
Justin Perdue: "I'm telling you this because you're my son."  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. The Law becomes precious to the believer when they understand all is good in the sight of God, Christ is their righteousness, and God does not require any more obedience. I have all of the earned love of God and the earned righteousness that God requires in Jesus. Now I'm free to obey for the sake of enjoying the Father. I obey to enjoy His presence, not because I must earn something. When we understand our hearts are full of corruption, that sexuality has plagued humanity forever, just read the Old Testament and the New Testament. The church is full of sexual corruption in the New Testament.  
  
Justin Perdue: A lot of times we'll act like it's unique in modern culture that sex is a big deal, even the church, like you and I are having this podcast today, are trying to make sex a big deal. I don't think sex needs our help. It has been a massive deal throughout the entire history of the world. Read the Old Testament and think about the Greco-Roman culture and its history. Think about how sexuality has been interwoven with pagan religion since forever. Sex always has been and always will be a big deal. It sells and people talk about it. We need to talk reasonably, compassionately, and clearly about it right from God's word.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We know there are people who have tried to live in a cave with no outside influence for a year and they come out saying they still struggled with lust. The problem is not outside of you. That's this is where the real conversation has to go. The problem is not outside of us, the problem isn't that pornography exists or nudity exists, but the problem is within and we have to deal with the problem within now.  
  
It is great that you brought up Roman 7\. Just because the problem is within you, you don't throw common sense out the window. This is why you and I don't do counseling with women in a room by ourselves - because we know their corrupt heart and our corrupt heart. It's just not wise. There are certain things we do not do.  
  
One thing I will want to say, and I love where you're going with this, is because we understand the corruption of our heart, we have to allow Scripture to correct what the world is absolutely putrefying. When the church only points out what's wrong, that's only Law. The gospel frees people. An expression of the gospel is this: we have been unconditionally loved, mercy and kindness have been poured over us, and we then can take that and love our spouses in a very intimate way that cannot happen anywhere else in the world. You have the opportunity to love in ways that is glorifying to God. That is what we should be focusing on: here's the negative, now here's how to turn it positive. What the world only hears is, "That's horrible. Don't do that." They never hear the positive part.  
  
One of the problems in the church in terms of how this is discussed and presented is there is a fundamental misunderstanding of repentance and how God's Law might be used with respect to that. If the cravings of our flesh and our corruption become very obvious to us, as we are being confronted by God's Law and God's design, I'm mindful again of how Solomon starts Proverbs in Proverbs 1:7: the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. What is that? In my mind, that's a verse about repentance because the fear of the Lord involves knowing Him, having reverence for Him, and understanding who He is and what He requires.  
  
Then we need to talk about what repentance is biblically: it's something that God does to us. He repents us. It's a change of mind about God, who He is, and what He requires about ourselves, our corruption, and our need of Christ in the way of salvation. If I had to boil it down again, the difference between the church and the world is not that the church does not sin sexually and the world does. The difference is that in the church, by God's grace alone, we have actually come to agree with Him. We have sided with God against our sin rather than siding with our sin against God. That's the difference.  
  
What does that do? When that change of mind happens, where do we run and where do we flee? Only to Christ. Where else could we go? I want to stand on the tabletops and say that the only solution to the painful pursuit of fallen man, to escape the accusations and the condemnation of God's Law with respect to our sexuality, is Jesus. We hold him out.  
  
Justin Perdue: In this area - and we could maybe riff on this for a little bit - I would wager that we all carry guilt, shame, and disgrace around with us as it relates to this topic in a unique way. The beautiful thing about the gospel is that we need not carry guilt, shame, and disgrace around with us anymore because Jesus has taken all of that away. That message, that truth, has never sounded sweeter to a sinner's ears than when we're having this conversation. Everything that I've ever done that I'm ashamed of, the cravings of my flesh that I hate and am embarrassed by at points, and as I see my corruption - to know that Christ has dealt with that, that I am his forever, that I really encountered righteous in him, and that he has taken all of that mess away from me is absolutely essential. I can't help but think that, as a Christian and as a pastor, in an evangelistic sense, this is what the world longs for. It's this kind of liberation. It's not the liberation that's being sought in culture, but this. This is liberation.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I've counseled people where they think that since they have already given in this much, then they might as well just give in all the way. Why fight anymore? When you bring in the gospel and forgiveness and say, "Dear friend, you have been forgiven of that sin. I know that you feel like you have failed and because you have failed, you might as well give up. But the gospel comes in and says you don't have to live in bondage. God does not consider you righteous because of what you have not done. He considers you righteous because of what Christ has done. Now, let's get up and fight again. Let's keep fighting because there's more joy in resting in Christ than there ever would be in indulging in this sin."  
  
As men who understand a covenantal perspective - a covenant of works and a covenant of grace, and this confessional idea - we know for a fact that there is the battle between two thoughts: joy through resting in Christ versus stolen joy by giving in to the flesh. Every day we wake up, we fail, yet there can be hope and joy because of the forgiveness, mercy, and kindness of my God. He will come and restore me. This is 1 John 1:9\. This is why we must confess our sins. It's not "if you sin", it's "when you sin". God expects you to sin because otherwise, why would He command you to repent? He demands it of you to repent. He knows you're going to sin.  
  
What I love is that when people discover the gospel and understand that resting in Christ is not on their performance but Christ's, they actually have the energy to keep fighting even though they keep failing. They're not going to give in because joy can be found in resting in Christ versus being enslaved to sin.  
  
Justin Perdue: Our pursuit of obedience, righteousness, and uprightness, when it comes to how we conduct ourselves sexually is always grounded in our identity as children of God. It's always grounded in our identity in Christ. It's grounded in our status as justified and safe. Like I alluded to earlier, the posture of the Christian is to confess that I don't have my house in order on my own, that I have sinned, I have fallen, and I look to Christ for my righteousness in my atonement, and I look to him to take away my guilt and shame. Then by His Spirit’s work in me, I seek to have my life conformed to God's good and holy Law. It's not threatening, it's not scary, and it's not oppressive. In our flesh, can it be hard? Sure. But we understand is that sin is not worth it and the pursuit of what God says is good, within the context of freedom in Christ, actually brings joy and lasting peace. It will save all of us from a thousand things that will break our hearts and destroy our lives. We've all seen this happen. Using sex in a way that God has not designed brings is a unique kind of wreckage and pain.  
  
As Christians in the church, rather than screaming at people, shaming people, and guilting people, let's talk this way: Brother or sister, you're safe in Christ. I love you and I don't want this for you. I want good for you. I want to keep you from pain.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Sin will always rob you of joy and you will always be searching for this sense of it being acceptable. Our culture pressures us to be accepting of certain types of sexual deviancy and to make everyone be okay with it - this only reveals that what the world is really looking for is the feeling of being accepted. They want to be a part of something that is good but they want their sin. This is what the New Testament talks about when it says they turn what is evil into good and good into evil. They want their evil to be accepted. What we can come in and say is that the acceptability you were looking for can be found, but it can't be found in the way in which you were pursuing it.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's a great observation. The unconditional acceptance that people are looking for is offered freely to us in Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. When I interact with people who are in these circumstances where they are struggling with this, the gospel is foolish to them. But I don't allow that to distract me because I know that the power of the gospel can come in and give that acceptance to people. But as Paul says, we have to die; everything we have has to die.  
  
We're talking about acceptability within sexuality, but this applies to a lot of other things: it can apply to your parenting, your career, and your gender. We want to feel accepted by what we do, but the only accepted that we would ever feel is in what Christ has done. When you live in that, you can let that wash over you, you wear that guard, you put on that robe, you feel that acceptance of God and you don't want anything else. You want to shout it from the rooftops, "Did you all know this existed? Did you know you could have this? Did you know this could be for everyone?" It changes everything.  
  
Justin Perdue: This is not Jon's or my opinion. This is what we can pronounce and say to one another based upon the testimony of God's word: to the saints who are listening, we don't know everything that you've done, but we can promise you beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot out sin Christ's power and ability to save you. That is a wonderful thought.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If I may interject, you don't want to try because it's miserable.  
  
Justin Perdue: For those who have a tender conscience and who are thinking, "Brother, you have no idea what I've done," you're right. I don't know what you've done now. I could surmise it. I'm not surprised by very much as a pastor, and even knowing my own heart, but if you are trusting Christ, you will never out sin his power and his ability to save you. He will not lose you. He won't fail you.  
  
Something that we could talk about in the members' section is this: you brought up a covenantal framework and things like that. There are some verses in Proverbs, and Proverbs 6:1 in particular, that mentions how the man who commits adultery will have wounds and dishonor, and his disgrace will never leave him. People might look at that and ask how you can reconcile that with the gospel that you guys are talking about and how Jesus takes away sin and shame and guilt? I am convinced that a covenantal framework helps us answer that question quite easily. Perhaps we could start with that in the member section and see where that conversation leads.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The other conversation that we want to have in the members' section is how the church has been confused on what its mission is. It's not to fix the sexual culture of our city. What is the purpose and what is the result of that?  
  
Justin Perdue: There are a couple of good topics for the members' podcasts. Jon and I are about to make our way over there. If you're listening and you're newer to Theocast, you might not know what we even mean by members podcast. It is a part of our total access membership at Theocast. You can find more information about that membership and what it all means for you over at our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com.  
  
We've got some good things to discuss. We look forward to having the conversation. We hope that as many of you as possible make your way over to the members area to partake in and listen in on that conversation with us. We will talk with you again next week.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-our-weakness-sex-and-the-gospel/)

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### MEMBERS: How Not to Read Your Bible (Transcript)

*Published: September 16, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-how-not-to-read-your-bible-transcript*
*Tags: bible, Bible Reading, Church, devotions, Means of Grace, Pietism, quiet times*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-how-not-to-read-your-bible/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members podcast. We always liked to begin this time by giving a very heartfelt and sincere thank you to all of you who have partnered with Theocast in this way. We want to continue spreading this great news of Jesus Christ and his sufficiency in the place of sinners, as well as his work in our place that really does offer us rest and peace and assurance. We would not be able to do what we're doing without your partnership and without your help. Thank you very much for the ways that you enable this message to go to more and more people. Continue to partner with us and pray alongside us that we can continue to herald this message.  
  
Our brother Jimmy Buehler said this: personal Bible reading is not necessarily the litmus test for being a mature and faithful Christian. Thoughts?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: This is where I want to go with this. As I was trained in ministry in my younger years, the undercurrent understanding was that it was my job as a pastor to get people to mature in their faith - and that's not a bad thing. However, the litmus test or the unspoken barometer of whether or not people were mature in their faith was how I can get people to systematically and individually read their Bibles consistently. It was almost as if my job as a pastor was to set the temperature in such a way that it's my role, my job, and my aim to get people into these systematic, individualized reading plans like that was somehow the end in and of itself.  
  
Again, let me be clear: I think it's a good thing, under a proper understanding through a proper lens in a corporate sense, for people to read their Bibles. It is a gift. But if that is the end all be all, what sort of danger does that bring with it?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Let's put it this way: if one guy is doing 30 minutes, is it better for me to do an hour? If one guy is doing an hour, is better for me to do two hours?  
  
At what point do you finally find that a Christian is mature? Let's say they consistently have done their devotions without fail, even when they're sick, for 30 years. Is that a mature Christian? I know people who have read their Bibles their entire life and they can't seem to apply the second command.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Love your neighbor. Greatest command.  
  
Unfortunately, I know of some individuals, and I'm sure everybody listening does, who religiously read their Bibles each and every day but are some of the most intolerable church people - mean, cunning, divisive. Clearly something is amiss and I don't think it's the Bible.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'll be a little bit more pointed here. This is where I would say your Bible reading is of no value.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's exactly what we mean - to what end? If somebody came to me and said, "I read my Bible because it is for the benefit of me trusting in Christ, seeing how Christ has worked on my behalf, and because I feel like I have things to offer for the benefit of the greater body of Christ." Praise the Lord. By all means.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If it makes you more loving, patient, kind, and gracious, praise God because that's the point.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: To me, that would be the barometer. Who is the faithful and mature Christian? It is the person within the corporate body of the church who is loving, who is kind, who is gracious, who seeks to serve those around them, who in their daily vocation and callings in life quietly work and serve to the glory of God and the good of their neighbor.  
  
Justin Perdue: In addition to what you guys are saying in terms of reading the Bible to benefit your brothers and sisters, I think it's entirely good and right for people to read their Bible in the context in which we've already described. I'm thinking I want to read the Bible, and as I'm learning these frameworks, I want to understand Scripture better so that I can then help others be encouraged in Christ. I can help others see the utter faithfulness of God revealed in this grand story of redemption so that I can extol the mercy and the grace and the power of Jesus better. I think that's a great thing. Not so that I can seem smart or insightful, or not so I can brow beat people with my Bible IQ, or not so that I can guilt and shame others because they don't know as much as me or they're not as fateful or diligent as me, but because I can legitimately aim to fan the flame of their faith and trust in Christ as I am learning to have a better handle on what God is doing and has done in redemption.  
  
Another way to highlight the fact that we associate personal Bible reading with faithfulness is when somebody uses the word "discipleship" or "discipling". If not the first thing, one of the top two things that anybody would think of when someone says "I'm serious about discipleship" is personal devotional time and serious accountability. That's usually what people mean. "We need to be about discipleship in this church," meaning we need to be serious about our personal devotional lives and we need to set up systems of accountability. It's indicative of a larger systemic issue that we equate being mature, faithful, godly, and all those things with your personal disciplines and regiments. Not to say that disciplines and regiments are bad, but it's not a one-to-one correlation.  
  
How do you define what a godly and mature Christian is? Disciplines are not going to be at the top of the list. They're going to be people who are loving their neighbor, they're trusting Christ, they're all kinds of good for others, they're gracious, they're hospitable, they're compassionate, and they're pointing people to Christ. We could go on and on. They're faithful employees in that they show up to work every day and they do their job. They love their spouses and their kids.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Not one of us here opposes the idea when we are commanded in Scripture to discipline ourselves for the sake of godliness. All three of us do this. All three of us have to discipline ourselves because the flesh is constantly battling us and wanting us to go towards temptation. There are moments where we have to do things to suppress that and we use the corporate body. Normally when people hear discipline for the sake of godliness, what they're hearing is that my discipline makes me godly. No, it's the exact opposite. For the sake of godliness, because you are secure in Christ and are declared righteous, therefore fight against the flesh. You're not earning godliness because God sees you as godly - now discipline yourself as a response to that.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's not a merit badge.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say to obey patience and kindness and mercy towards others - that's going to require discipline.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something that I like to say to our church constantly and consistently is God calls us to live out who He has already declared us to be in Christ. God calls us to live holy lives. When we say holy, we mean not to chase after things that are going to destroy you. Don't chase after your neighbor's wife. Why? Because that's going to destroy your family and it's going to destroy his family. Most likely it's going to spread like gangrene in your church. You discipline yourself to say, "I want to have eyes only for my wife. She is the standard of beauty that I am I am disciplining myself for." It's for the betterment of the body. It's for the betterment of your neighbors around you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You should not use discipline as a means to determine whether you're a good Christian or not. What you're then doing is saying that your self-righteousness is what is acceptable before God. No. Because you're acceptable before God, it frees you to now work and discipline. Don't ever assume God is pleased with you because you are more disciplined than the person next to you. That is a dangerous road to go down.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Nobody will ever be perfectly self-disciplined.  
  
Jon Moffitt: How much discipline is enough?  
  
Justin Perdue: When you're perfect is the answer, I guess. Nobody can ever define that.  
  
On the whole quantifying and always measuring stuff, we just need to stop it because you cannot measure these kinds of things like you do a child's height against the wall. Whenever we aim to quantify disciplines or we aim to quantify sanctification in any way, I would argue that nothing good comes of it.  
  
The identity thing matters, too. When we're told in the New Testament that we are a people holy to the Lord, what does that really mean? It means that we have been set apart, we've been marked out as the people of God, now we're in Christ, and that's our identity now.  
  
The posture of the apostles is that we are set apart to the Lord, we are the redeemed, and now here's how the redeemed lives. Let's go about making these things the things that we pursue; let's go about running from these other things because they'll wreck our lives. It's actually quite simple: if God says it's good, let's pursue it; if God says it'll wreck our lives, let's run from it. Let's trust Christ as we do that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Going back to what I said in the regular portion about the whole idea of practical application: as much as we want to make the Bible practical, the imperative commands that we see in the epistles are actually far more practical than we want them to be. When Paul is going, "Husbands, brothers, come here. Love your wife. Serve her." I don't know how much more practical you want me to be. I don't need to give you some like long exegetical argument - that's already in Ephesians 1-3 and a bit of 4\. Now I get to Ephesians 5 and it's telling husbands to love their wives and be patient with them. As Peter says, live with your wife in an understanding way? I don't need to do a five-part marriage series. I can just say, "Guys, love your wife. Don't be a knucklehead."  
  
Justin Perdue: Don't be a jerk and try to understand her. Think about how you would want somebody to treat you. It's all very simple and very practical. It's very boots on the ground.  
  
Jon Moffitt: On the flip side, sometimes people in the past have listened to Theocast and they assume and there's no discipline needed. It's almost antinomian - you guys live however you want, you don't need to discipline your life - and that is not what we're saying. What we're saying is that your standing and favor before God are not determinative by your discipline. That would mean that we are on a merit-based system. We are not saying that discipline is of no value - it's just different for this reason. Most people think I need to be disciplined so that I'm a good Christian and that God is pleased with me and I can grow spiritually. Whereas Paul says your discipline is for the benefits of others. You suppressing the flesh builds up the body and it encourages them, it strengthens them, and it keeps division out of the church.  
  
What I get frustrated with is that people are so proud of how well they've been doing with their disciplines at home but they can't seem to make it to church. Their finances are all disarray and they can't seem to give to church. Discipline your life so that it benefits the body. So you can actually be involved. You can show up - you have time. You're so proud of the fact that you've been so disciplined at home in your personal devotional life, but yet you can't serve the church. That does not equate to me of what the New Testament is saying.  
  
Justin Perdue: The purpose of disciplines in that regard would be the other things that were exhorted to in the New Testament, namely love and good works for the building of the church.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We tend to over spiritualize that which is very practical and we tend to make very practical that which is actually very spiritual.  
  
Dads, don't exacerbate your kids. Wives, show respect to your husbands. Husbands, love your wives. Don't cheat. Don't steal from your employer.  
  
Justin Perdue: Don't avenge yourselves. Get a job so that you can provide for your family and you can actually give to others who are in need. It's just so incredibly simple.  
  
We take something that's meant to be telling us the story of redemption, of how God is at work to save us, and then we turn them into principles - here are the 19 things that we can take away from the life of Elijah, etc. Maybe at a secondary or tertiary level, we can apply some of that. But there are a lot more going on there that we need to be concerned with about how God is saving a people - and we're a part of that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If you're going to read yourself into the Bible, read yourself into the person that you don't want to read yourself into: the cowering Israelites, the wandering Israelites, the grumbling Israel - that's who you are. If you want to read yourself into that, that's who you are. You're not Moses or David or Aaron or any of the heroes - and I use the word "heroes" loosely. It's better to read yourself as the villain who gets redeemed.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We do this by nature. You just have to watch the news with everything that's going on. We'll take someone who has this one moment of heroism and we think this person's great. Then you look into their lives and he's been beating his wife, he hasn't been paying child support, etc.  
  
I look at that in the Old Testament and we do this with Abraham. With Abraham and Isaac, we say we need to have the faith of Abraham. Did you mean that moment when he lied about his wife twice? Or when he went and had a baby with his servant because he didn't believe God was going to fulfill it through his wife? Is that the kind of faith we're talking about? He does one great thing and we forget about all the dumb things he has done.  
  
Justin Perdue: His faith was imperfect but the thing about Abraham is that God made a promise to him and God counted faith to him as righteousness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As little as it was.  
  
Justin Perdue: "You're trusting in the promise seed. You're trusting in the promises I'm making to you. I am counting you righteous." Then God commences to fulfill those promises and save His people. Abraham is upheld as a pattern for us in those ways. We should actually be comforted by Abraham's weakness and see that we, just like him, are dependent upon the One who justifies the ungodly.  
  
To put a bow on this conversation, our encouragements to you is to join a local church where the word of God is rightly preached, where you can experience the ordinary means of grace, and where you can experience the fellowship of the saints - then approach your Bibles in that context. As you go to your Bible, look for the faithfulness of God, look for the sufficiency of Christ, and continue to aim to pour yourself out in love and good works for the upbuilding of the church.  
  
That's our general exhortation to you, our members. We love you. We thank you for listening in on this conversation. We hope that it was helpful to you in some ways. Thank you again for your partnership with us. You mean a lot to us and we couldn't do what we're doing without you. We will talk with you again next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-not-to-read-your-bible-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-not-to-read-your-bible/)

---

### How Not to Read Your Bible (Transcript)

*Published: September 16, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/how-not-to-read-your-bible-transcript*
*Tags: bible, Bible Reading, Church, devotions, Means of Grace, Pietism, quiet times*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-not-to-read-your-bible/)**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we are going to talk about Bible reading. Maybe you're discouraged about reading your Bible. Maybe you feel like you don't understand it. Maybe you feel like when you do read it, you get nothing from it. We are going to talk today about how not to approach reading Scripture. Then we're going to consider what the Bible says about how to interact with the word of God.  
  
Over in the members area, we are going to consider whether or not personal Bible reading is a litmus test of being a good and faithful Christian. Stay tuned.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: As more people have listened to our podcasts, we pay attention to the different backroom talk as people process the things that we are saying and writing.  
  
I think one of the pieces of pushback that we get - and I will use the word attack but we're certainly not attacking this - is the way that we point out individual Bible reading and how it's handled within the world of Christianity today.  
  
Perhaps you're engaged by the title of this podcast. What we really want to discuss today is how we understand, how we view, and how we believe the Bible talks about reading the Bible.  
  
What are the ways that people tend to read the Bible? As the common Christian person approaches the word of God, what are the ways in which they are doing this? What are the ways that people tend to read the Scripture that are common to their church and their experience of Christianity? Then we're going to move on into how we think the Bible speaks about reading the Bible itself.  
  
Justin Perdue: One of the ways that people approach reading Scripture that is less than helpful, we might say, is they approach it from a sentimental perspective. It's a very subjective perspective where they are looking for a kind of feeling or emotional takeaway from their time in the word. This is unhelpful for people partly because our feelings and emotions vacillate like crazy by the moment, and most certainly by the day. You're going to feel different ways about reading the Bible. You're going to feel different ways reading it. There are going to be some days where you might be affected and stirred, and they're going to be other days where it's just flat. Nothing's happening.  
  
What usually is the takeaway from all that? On the days when we feel something strongly, we think that time was productive and useful and we marvel at how it has blessed us. If it's a day where we didn't feel anything while reading Scripture, or maybe we didn't read it at all because we didn't feel like doing it, then we are just discouraged. Instead of putting any wind in our sails, it robs us of any motivation and we start to doubt all kinds of things. It's definitely an unsteady way to approach Scripture when you are looking for some kind of sentimental takeaway or some sort of warm, fuzzy, good feeling, or good vibe that we might glean from the Bible.  
  
We're going to pivot later to how we should read our Bibles, but this is certainly not a way to approach it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Another way of saying that would be looking for an experience every time we open God's word. We hear language like one needing to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, or one needs to cultivate that personal relationship with Jesus Christ and it needs to be intimate. They'll even say things like, "If you don't spend time with your wife, how are you going to have a relationship with her? So if you're not spending time with Jesus, how are you going to have a relationship with him?"  
  
What ends up happening is that we assume that every time we spend time with Jesus, it needs to be this euphoric experience. You almost the pressure of having the first date syndrome: you always want that feeling that you had on a good first date. Anybody who has been married for a long period of time knows that that's not how relationships work and neither is it how you build it. You're not shooting for your first date every time - sometimes a trip to the coffee store is just what's needed, and not a $75 dinner.  
  
The dangerous part of that is that when we look at Scripture, you don't see Paul giving us instructions on how to have this experiential moment with God. I would say a lot of people become discouraged in their interactions with God's word because it doesn't produce this experiential moment where their lives were transformed that morning.  
  
Justin Perdue: There was a very popular devotional Bible study called _Experiencing God_ that went around in some churches, even to the one that I was a part of. I can't remember the author, but to your point, it's like we are looking for this experience of communion with God. Communion with God is legit and real - we just are not always going to have that conscious experience as we're reading Scripture by ourselves. It's unhelpful.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: A lot of times when people approach the Scriptures, they're approaching it as if it's an 80s prom dance: the lights have gone down low, the disco ball has come down, the slow jam has come out, Jesus is out on the floor, and we have to go and like meet Jesus and dance. It's very much like we have this moment where it's just myself and Jesus on the floor.  
  
A distinction that I want to make is that certainly there are aspects of the Christian life and faith that are personal, but when people use the word "personal" what we often mean is "private". The idea of a private relationship with Jesus is very foreign to the Bible; the Bible is very upfront about corporate realities and the corporate life of the church. That isn't to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't personally save believers through the work of regeneration. However, the Christian life is not a private experience. It's not a solo experience. Unfortunately, this is often what people mean when they say we need to have this private experience each and every morning, to have our prom dance with Jesus so that my day goes a particular way.  
  
It's kind of like Facebook meme Christianity where there is a mountain scene, there's a light, and then the words "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength." We're supposed to look at that and have this emotive response. Often that's what people are looking for: a spiritual navel-gazing way of reading the Bible. I need to get my spiritual McNugget for the day to carry me through.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's a Precious Moments approach to reading Scripture.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We assume the act of reading the Bible is beneficial for us spiritually when we take the time to discipline ourselves, sit down, and have our eyes gloss over the words. Then God will use that to protect us. It's almost an earning of favor. God requires this of me, and if I don't meet my required minimum of reading per day, God, won't be happy with me. I'll probably be more vulnerable to sin and I'll probably have less blessing.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I can hear people kind of pushing back and I can see the question marks above their head. Jon, when you say we assume that it's going to be beneficial, are you saying that when we read the Bible, there are times that it's not beneficial? What do you mean by that? Can you explain it?  
  
Jon Moffitt: There are two answers to your question. One, what I'm trying to get at is that the act of reading is not promised in Scripture for you to have spiritual benefits. Some people think that if they read these holy words, it will work like charms. If I say these holy words, they will then charm me with whatever. There are a lot of people who read their Bibles and at the end of it, they literally say, "I didn't get anything out of that. I ran the genealogies today and I got nothing out of it."  
  
Justin Perdue: The big question to ask is this: what did you expect to get?  
  
Jon Moffitt: What they feel is that if they don't do it, then they're going to be less than. Secondly, there are at times when people do read and because they don't know what they're doing while they're reading the Bible... Let me put it this way: the Bible is not the Book of Proverbs. We want to read the Bible as if there are these one or two spiritual nuggets that can come out of it. You're reading about guts and glory and blood and promises, and then you're saying, "Nothing here." People have applied stuff out of the Old Testament where I think, "It would have been better if you didn't read that and didn't apply it in the way in which you applied it."  
  
Justin Perdue: When people approach especially the Old Testament like it's some handbook for living, or it's a handbook for mental, emotional, and spiritual health, and then we start to apply the Scripture that way, we do all kinds of bad things with it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The Daniel diet is not intended for you to apply.  
  
Justin Perdue: It can be unhelpful to read Scripture if you're going to grossly misunderstand and misapply it. One way we do that is when we read and we look for impressions. I'm reading the text and I get this impression, feeling, or this thought that pops into my head, and then we take that and run with it. It's the classic Bible study where we're being asked, "What do you get out of this text when you look at it? What does it mean to you? What's your takeaway?" I don't really care what this means to you or what your takeaway is. The question you should be asking is this: What does it mean? What is God revealing? What is God promising? What does this mean for faith? What does this mean for redemption and things like that? That kind of impressionistic reading of the Bible takes us to all kinds of weird places, too.  
  
Jon talked about earning favor with God, wanting God to be happier with me, and the protection pieces. This is where we turn. Not only do we turn the Bible into a charm, but we turn Bible reading into this kind of karma-like reality. It's almost quid pro quo where I do this and then God does that. It's meritorious in some sense in our minds. People think they're going to have a great day because they had a great quiet time. You may have had the best quiet time you've had in a year, whatever that means to you, and you pull out of your driveway and you're in a car wreck. What then?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Or you run over your kid's bike and say a swear word.  
  
Justin Perdue: You think, "I was doing great and now I'm doing terribly. Now I'm angry and I'm sinning all over the place."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: To offer an illustration with the beneficial piece, about year and a half ago, one of our kids had broken something in our home - and it was something that could be easily fixed with tape. So we did that. What my child had learned from that is that everything could be fixed with tape. Then things of a large and heavy nature would start to break and I would begin to find things around the house that were covered in tape. Tape is a good thing and it is beneficial for very specific purposes. Here I had my child treating, not even duct tape, but scotch tape as the cure-all for everything in our home. A lot of times, that's how we view the Bible.  
  
The Bible is beneficial. Paul writes this to Timothy that it is beneficial for all sorts of good things. However, when we view it through the lenses by which we are discussing, a lot of times it can be unbeneficial because we're all applying it in all sorts of weird ways. We're treating it like Proverbs exclusively in that we're just looking for that practical truth to get us through the day.  
  
Even the word "practical" has been overused in so many ways. We have trained arbitrarily, in the past 20 years, that there's always going to be a practical application in a sermon, or there's always going to be a practical application in Bible reading. Certainly sometimes there may be, but a lot of times there aren't any.  
  
Justin Perdue: This is true of many things in the Christian life. We all tend to be very shortsighted in how we approach the Christian life. We tend to overestimate greatly what can happen in the short term. And we underestimate greatly what can happen over the long term. This is true with respect to how we approach the Bible.  
  
Let's use a better word. Our meditation on the word of God over the course of a lifetime will bear fruit in ways that we don't really understand and can't even fathom. It will have nothing to do with how you felt or what your takeaway was from the word on any given day.  
  
To set people free from this bondage of expecting their Bible reading and meditation that day to be life changing. That is just not the norm and frankly, it is a dangerous and difficult way. It's going to produce more discouragement for people over the course of time than encouragement  
  
Just continue to trust the Lord in all things, including this matter that he will do a good work in your life over the long haul, as you trust Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're about to make a transition here. Let me jump in as we change directions here and turn this towards the positive.  
  
What would you say about the Bible promises? What benefits does the Bible give us for our reading of it?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: The Bible actually does not give us an explicit command on an individual level to read the Bible. We just don't see it. Some of the things that we do see are the practice of meditation, which is another conversation. Some of the other things that we do see are the public reading, teaching, and preaching of Scripture.  
  
To put a bow on our previous segment of unhelpful ways that we read the Bible: one of the most unhelpful ways that we read the Bible as we read it in a vacuum. Jimmy wakes up at 6:00 AM, has a nice strong cup of coffee with a candle lit and lights down low. Then he has this individual time and he reads it in a vacuum because it's all about his personal spiritual health, it's all about his personal spiritual discipline. I don't think people do this purposefully or with an ill will, but it's read in a vacuum that has no benefit to the body of Christ that you are personally involved in. Insert your church name here.  
  
I think the way that the Bible points itself out as a way that's beneficial is when the Bible is read, and I would say specifically taught and preached, in a corporate gathering of believers.  
  
Yeah.  
  
When we as fathers and husbands make life-altering decisions - moving states, changing jobs, buying a car - we always make those decisions and do our research on the premise of me being a father and me having a wife. I have to make the decisions based upon those. Even little decisions like gauging if its too much money for this particular thing that I want to participate in. If you're a good father and you're a good husband, you naturally think about life in that context of family. But we don't do this with our relationship with the Father. We think we're only children: it's me and God, and we'll figure this out together. If I have a struggle with sin or if I want to grow in my faith, I need to work on that.  
  
I would even say, to Jimmy's point, that your Bible reading should be for the benefit and in the context of family. I'm reading this because my family and I would benefit from ways in which I can consider how to build them up into love, because I am consuming our Father's information that He has given us. I can then use that for worship. I can use that for encouragement. I can use it for those who are discouraged; I can encourage those who are growing. But that's not how we see it: we see it as a need to get me through my day.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's all about your own personal development for your own sake. That's not a biblical concept.  
  
A drum that I'm happy to keep beating is that the common notion for the evangelical is that the real important stuff of the Christian life happens when we're by ourselves. This certainly is true with respect to how we approach Scripture or God's word. The common notion is that the most important interaction that I have with the Bible occurs when it's just me and Jesus with whatever beverage you want. It is commonly believed that private time in the word is the real interaction that I have with Scripture; Sunday morning and gathering with the church are surely beneficial, and God says we should do it, but this private stuff is the real thing. That is not the thrust of the New Testament.  
  
The New Testament speaks in corporate realities. The letters in the New Testament are written to congregations. The mention of Scripture and the ministry of the word is always in the context of the body of Christ, whether it's public reading, teaching, or even just interacting with it. It's always assumed it's together that we do that.  
  
Something that we need to really embrace as believers biblically is that the corporate reality of the gathered church drives my private life, not the other way around. Most people assume that my private devotional life drives everything else. No, the corporate reality drives your private life. That's a very disorienting thought for many evangelicals but it's a very freeing one. This is important for a number of reasons - and we'll continue to unpack why.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I'm thinking of the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, and kindness - think of all of these things. The fruits of the Spirit do not make sense if they only exist for the private individual. You cannot be a loving person outside of the communion of saints. You can't be patient outside of the communion of the saints because there's nothing to be patient with. You don't love yourself; you don't practice patience on yourself - that certainly doesn't make sense. Yet this is something that we continually do, when we talk about personal Bible reading, is that it benefits me.  
  
I encourage people in my own body to gather with other saints to study the Bible because I do think that it's a good way for people to know one another, to be around one another, and to hear how God has uniquely wired that person to offer various insights about the Scripture. But even that is in a corporate or community sense.  
  
Maybe now is a good time to say that none of us approach the Bible with this purely objective intention to see the Bible for what it is. Is there a way that we are supposed to understand and read the Bible?  
  
Justin Perdue: Thinking about the corporate reality, one of the reasons it's so important for us, particularly as it pertains to reading Scripture is this: if we are a part of a church where the word of God is rightly preached and rightly divided, one of the things that we are learning every Sunday corporately is how we are to read and understand the Bible.  
  
What we want to talk about now are things that we talk about regularly: the big framework of Scripture. There are two different ways that we'll describe that big framework of the Bible that are incredibly helpful for the individual Christian going to Scripture.  
  
Two things that are massively helpful for you to open your Bible and go to any part of it, have some bearings, and be able to orient yourself in terms of what God is doing and where you fit in it are these: a covenantal framework of Scripture and a redemptive historical framework of the Bible.  
  
Perhaps we could give brief definitions of those things for people that might not be familiar with them then maybe just talk together about how those things are so helpful.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The easy way to describe redemptive historic is that the Bible is about the story of redemption. God made a promise to Eve after the fall that through one of her children, God would restore back what was lost. What was lost in the garden between Adam and Eve? They lost their innocence, their purity, and their fellowship with God, and they were kicked out of the garden. What God promises is that He is going to pay for those sins and restore not only the fellowship but also creation back to not be under the curse anymore. This is Romans 8\. What we then read is that promise starts to gain traction: you get clarity in Abraham, then in Moses, and then in David.  
  
You have to ask what seed of Eve is it going to be? Then when you get to the New Testament, you realize it's the virgin birth when Jesus comes through Mary - that's the culmination of the Old Testament. The whole thing is a story of redemption - that means to buy back.  
  
When we put the word "history" in there, that means that the story of redemption unfolds through history. It's not a theological book where it's broken up into topics, but it is the revelation of what actually happened. That would be a quick definition.  
  
To compare that real quick, redemptive historic understanding of Scripture and reading it that way is contrasted to a me-centered understanding, with the latter being finding myself in the text and where I can be like this person in history. The stories in the Bible become pure moral stories. They become wither great role models or bad role models for you, but it's a whole me-centered way of reading it versus looking at it as a story of redemption that unfolds in history.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: This is tying back to when we talked about how not all Bible reading are equally beneficial. We believe that when you read the Bible with this specific lens - that you are reading the unified story of God's pursuit of sinners through the gospel of Jesus, culminating in the person and work of Jesus Christ, and benefiting sinners through their redemption, their forgiveness, by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone - it prevents you from reading the Bible in such a way that you are looking for the spiritual McNugget.  
  
A lot of people would say, "Doesn't that rip the emotion out of the Bible?" Actually, it does quite the opposite. It helps you see that God made this promise to Abraham that through him, the nations of the world will be blessed - and you're in that. You're one of those stars in the sky. You are one of those sands on the beach that God promised to Abraham, and that through Abraham's line would come the Messiah. Thousands of years ago, God began setting my redemption in motion - praise be to His name. That is the spiritual McNugget that you can walk away with, that as you read even the obscure places in the Old Testament, even the genealogies, what you're seeing is the promises of God coming true. You're seeing the promises of God, that He made to Adam and Eve in the garden, coming through the lines of men and women, all coming to the person and work of Jesus Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: The point of the Bible is God's plan of redemption accomplished through Christ, and then applied to His people by the work of the Holy Spirit. We never want to read any passage of scripture without that main point in view.  
  
When it comes to the covenantal framework, the three big covenants that we understand are in Scripture are the covenant of redemption that happened before the world started where God determined to save a people. Then God made a conditional covenant of works with Adam in the garden that he broke. Then there was the promise of this covenant of grace, where the Messiah would come and would accomplish everything necessary for salvation - and it would be applied by grace, through faith, in him to sinners.  
  
We read all of Scripture with those understandings and it keeps us from individualizing and moralizing too much. It helps us when we come to things related specifically to the nation of Israel that can be confusing if we read Scripture, understanding that this seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman thing goes throughout the entire Old Testament, and that there is this promised One in particular who will come - who he is going to be, what he is going to be like, and what he is going to do. All of Israel's history is building to that crescendo where at the end of Malachi, the last book of the Old Testament, it's this epic cliffhanger of being sent a forerunner, that the great and awesome day of the Lord is coming, and we're waiting for a son of David who is going to represent the people and be their redemption. It orients us. It's like a map and a key for us. If we're sitting under that kind of teaching corporately all the time, and we're learning these frameworks, it makes it possible for us to go to Scripture and not do some of the silly things with it that we tend to do.  
  
I can't overemphasize enough the importance of sitting under good teaching and being a part of a local church, where you are learning to understand Bible in a corporate way with the help of your brothers and sisters. You're not just running off to a mountain side by yourself all the time, thinking that is what's going to do good for you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Some of these theological systems that have come out in the last 200 years have come out because people started reading their Bibles disconnected from church history and disconnected from any kind of theological training. You start hearing all kinds of theologies, different views of the Trinity, varying understandings of the end times, and the personal applications that come that have nothing to do with Scripture. We use what is called Biblicism where we are only going to believe exactly what the Bible says, and if the phrase or term is not in there, then I'm not going to use it. You're throwing out a lot - like church membership and the Trinity - just because the Bible doesn’t explicitly say this.  
  
What happens when you appropriately understand the intention of God's word? Your consumption of it will be so much more enjoyable because you actually understand what's going on and therefore your understanding will then breed greater knowledge. You start to read Scripture and understand that God is unfolding this promise or this covenant that He has given to the world, which is called the covenant of grace, in that God is going to redeem His people - and this is an unconditional promise that it's not based upon words, not based upon obedience to the Law, not based upon obedience to circumcision, and it is not a fulfillment on their part.  
  
God is going to restore back the fellowship that we destroyed based upon His mercy and grace. How does that happen? Those are the intentions of God's word. John even says in his gospel, "I write these things that you may believe." He doesn't write them so that you may use them for personal application. The Bible is designed so that your faith in your Savior is increasing all the more. The more we trust in Christ, the more rest we will have; the less we trust in Christ, the more anxiety we are going to have. Most people cannot rest in Jesus Christ because they don't find him trustworthy. I know that's a weird and bold statement, but it's true. The whole Bible is designed to prove that God is faithful when we are faithless. Understanding your Bible the right way will increase that as you read it.  
  
Justin Perdue: We come to the Scripture not for some sort of obscure personal application. As John writes in his gospel, "These things are written so that you might believe." He even says in his epistle, "I write these things to you so that you might know." Know what? That you are safe. That Jesus is the Son of God, and that you're in him. That is why he is writing this letter.  
  
Go to your Bible looking for these things: God is faithful, our God is a Redeemer, Jesus is able and mighty to save, Jesus is sufficient and he's enough for me. It's about faith. It's about trust in Christ. It's about knowing that I'm safe. It's about assurance.  
  
Of course there are things that I can glean from God's Law as a guide for my life or for how I am to live. But the main emphasis is Christ, redemption, faith, and assurance. I don't think that we often go to the Bible looking for those things.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: As we close this out and move into the members portion, I'm going to drop something: personal Bible reading is not necessarily the litmus test of a mature and faithful Christian.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Let me put it this way: when you go to your pastor or someone in your church and tell them you're struggling and they ask you how your Bible reading is - is that what you're talking about?  
  
Justin Perdue: Or when I ask somebody how they're doing, and the first thing that they respond to me with is what they're reading. Lovingly, brother or sister, that's not what I asked you. I asked you how you're thriving.  
  
I hope this has been a good conversation for people as you've listened. We thank you for tuning in and we hope that you continue to tune in and listen to Theocast is we aim to have a conversation like this every week.  
  
We are about to head now over to the aforementioned members podcast. You might not even know what that is. You could find more information about our membership at our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. If you are a total access member, we look forward to having a conversation with you over there in the members area.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-how-not-to-read-your-bible-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-how-not-to-read-your-bible/)

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### MEMBERS: The Slow Death of Pietism (Transcript)

*Published: September 9, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-the-slow-death-of-pietism-transcript*
*Tags: Assurance, Bible Reading, Legalism, Pietism, piety, reformed piety, Reformed Theology, Rest, Sanctification, Spiritual Disciplines*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-slow-death-of-pietism/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: As I said previously, we've been talking about how pietism can be very destructive on an individual level in one's life. It dies a very slow and painful death. That led us to a conversation about corporate realities and how we encourage people to live life within the corporate reality of the church. As Justin mentioned, just show up.  
  
Here's the problem though. Pietism doesn't just affect individuals. I wholeheartedly believe, and I think you guys would agree, that pietism affects the corporate church. How can pietism destroy or be harmful to the local church?  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to talk as though we're in a safe space because I trust we are with our members.  
  
How does pietism harm a church? It emphasizes and elevates all the wrong things and it detracts from and de-emphasizes all the things that we really need. In part, I am thinking about the corporate gathering - that is the primary thing that we do as a church. We could talk about ordinary means another time. I find it very interesting that a telltale sign of pietism is when somebody is just absolutely geeked up about discipleship but is very quick to not show up to church. I mean this humbly, but the people who are constantly talking about discipleship and accountability and are constantly wanting this study, group, or ministry initiative to be started but then never show up or are just happy to miss on Sunday. It's confusing. It is very difficult for pastors and leaders of the church. Those kinds of people are the exact opposite of a Hebrews 13 reality where one is being a joy to pastor, because they're saying we need to be doing all these but are never there.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I don't have time to go to church because I have other spiritual activities.  
  
Justin Perdue: What really matters to them is what they're doing by themselves, like a men's Bible study or women's group. That's what they think they really need. "The ordinary means and all that are fine, but I don't really need that. What we need is this other stuff and why isn't it happening? We need discipleship and accountability in this church." That's how it comes across. You realize that your discipleship begins on Sunday morning. Where have you been?  
  
Jon Moffitt: God has given His people the means by which He grows them.  
  
The modern-day view of discipleship is very foreign to Christianity throughout history - and we're not going to get in there. One thing I want to add to what Justin just said is that how pietism destroys the church is that it is a merit-based righteousness. Your merits gain you a better standing before God.  
  
Let me just change that: instead of a merit-based, it becomes comparative. This is why it's comparative: "I have to just be a little bit better than you to feel okay. As long as I'm a little bit better than the guy next to me." Or it's the single mom who is grinding it out day in and day out, and she sits in that pew half shuffled in, barely made it there, and she's sitting there looking around and thinking, "I am nothing like these people." She's comparing herself and feeling deflated and defeated. What happens is that you can't receive grace because you failed too much, and those who are doing well will receive grace.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: They've readied themselves.  
  
Justin Perdue: They have somehow prepared themselves to receive grace.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Grace is unmerited favor. So people who are the worst of the worst, who are struggling, who are find themselves beat down, church becomes something that is not for them because it's too comparative.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: To answer my own question on how pietism can destroy the local church or seriously hurt the local body, often what we see in a pietistic mindset is you have the parable of the wheat and the tares, or the wheat and the weeds. The farmer in his field sees that he has wheat and weeds. The farmhands come to them and they say, "Let's go through and root them out. We got to get rid of these tears. We've got to get rid of the weeds and destroy the crop." And the farmer says, "No, let it go." Often what happens is that the pietist in the local body becomes a weed whacker.  
  
Justin Perdue: Jesus says not to do that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: An indiscriminate weed whacker who find that it is their job in the local church to weed out the fakers and separate the sheep.  
  
Justin Perdue: What ends up happening is you kill the wheat.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: You take the bruised reed and you completely snap it.  
  
I've personally experienced where somebody wants to get lunch with me in those conversations, what I found out is this church person is trying to figure out whether I'm genuine or not in a first coffee meeting. It's almost infuriating. I had the theological wherewithal to know what they're trying to do, but can you imagine a person who is weak in faith like that young mom that you just imagined, Jon, who would feel like they're being sniffed out? Who feel like they are being turned in on themselves?  
  
What happens is this pietistic mindset runs rampant and spreads like gangrene. You have a bunch of insecure people looking at one another in suspicion. It makes it sound like this person is super conniving, and often they're sincere and mean well, but they don't understand how destructive it is. It's like when your toddler is drawing you a picture on your wall. They mean well but we don't draw all our artwork on the wall. Often what happens or how it comes to fruit is you'll have a conversation with them and they say, "Have you met Shirley? She gets it. She just gets it. She's genuine. She really understands the gospel." What does that mean?  
  
Jon Moffitt: My dad used to say they got a good dose of the Holy Ghost.  
  
We at Theocast are very sympathetic towards these people. We don't get angry with them because of this. Most of those people have no idea what they're doing is wrong. They really don't know. It's not like they are in sin and that they have chosen to be this way.  
  
Justin Perdue: Their motivation is that the church would be pure and sincere.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There's compassion for them until they're destructive. There is some instruction that comes with that.  
  
Justin Perdue: You talked about the bruised reeds and the smoldering wicks among us - I would argue that's the majority of us. I'm mindful of the words from the hymn: "Will you help the trembling mourners who are struggling hard with sin?" That's the posture that we want to have in the church.  
  
To piggyback on what you're saying, Jimmy, I think one of the worst things that pietism does in a local body is that it produces a lack of charity and a lack of compassion.  
  
This is the members' area so I feel safe to tell this anecdote in a general sense about a former member of our church. This brother meant well - I have no doubt about that. He came to the elders at one point and said, "This church is dead. There's not enough joy of the Lord here." In his mind, it was completely pietistic. "I need to be able to look at people during a corporate gathering, or I need to be able to get coffee with people and just perceive subjectively somehow that there is sufficient and adequate joy of the Lord here." First of all, what does that even look like? Second of all, you are depressed most of the time so I don't even know what that means for you personally.  
  
As pastors, we become protective of the other sheep. "Brother, I know you mean well, but how dare you come here and accuse your brothers and sisters? You have no idea what's been going on in their lives this week or what kind of grief they may be experiencing or what kind of battle or suffering is on their hands. You don't know and you're going to pronounce that person or persons to lack joy in the Lord, and therefore the Holy Spirit is just not present? Are you kidding?  
  
It's comparative righteousness, and it's so damaging. You are destroying the weak. You have basically made it sound like Christianity is a religion for the strong, which contradicts the Bible.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Often how pietism can really damage a church is that it leaves no room for sin and struggle. When a brother or sister confides in another and say they are struggling with a sin that is hurting them and they cannot shake off, the pietistic approach to that is: "You need to wake up and change." Certainly, we do call people to repentance, but in a true biblical sense of Christianity. Ultimately, what do we point people to? We point people to Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The kindness of God leads to repentance. Speaking the truth in love. Go to them with a spirit of compassion. How many times are we told that this is how we deal with people who are entrapped?  
  
Justin Perdue: Pietism kills any real possibility of honest struggling, and it makes it really impossible to be a sinner lest you be afraid that people are going to immediately assume you're a faker. What does that do? It hinders legitimate and real sanctification. It hinders real growth because we can't even live honest lives in front of one another.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: What I find is that those who have this mindset love when Jesus is harsh. I'm always thinking, "Jesus is talking to you."  
  
Justin Perdue: Who is Jesus harsh with? He is harsh with people who trust in themselves that they're righteous. He is harsh with people who think that they can achieve righteousness. He is harsh with people who prey on the weak. You might want to read that in context and realize that Jesus is gentle, lowly, compassionate, and condescends to people and offers them rest. They are trembling mortars that are battling sin.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's almost like you have to make yourself a slave because otherwise, he's going to reject you. That's not the way it's described. You have been purchased with a price, therefore you're a slave. What I love about that language is that means nothing or no one else can ever own me again. I am in the precious dear Savior's arms who says, "Come to me and I will give you rest." What a great promise. But we take slave language and we say, "You better make Jesus Lord of your life." Make? No one makes Jesus anything. He is Lord. Therefore I can rest.  
  
I guarantee you that Paul would say, "I need to make Jesus Lord? I don't do that. I make me Lord. Who will save me from this body?" This is Romans 7.  
  
We hope this was encouraging to you. We may have only poured gasoline on the fire, but these are helpful conversations. A book I want to recommend for you is _Faith vs. Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest_. If you haven't downloaded that, you need to go do that. Our book on assurance is helpful. I would also say our series on covenant theology.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's coming out soon.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It may be out by now. What that is designed for is to help that slow death of pietism. It's going to help you find that motivation where it should be, which is resting in the covenant of grace.  
  
We hope you're encouraged by that. Thank you for your support. Lord willing, we'll see you next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-the-slow-death-of-pietism-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-slow-death-of-pietism/)

---

### The Slow Death Of Pietism (Transcript)

*Published: September 9, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/the-slow-death-of-pietism-transcript*
*Tags: Assurance, Bible Reading, Legalism, Pietism, piety, reformed piety, Reformed Theology, Rest, Sanctification, Spiritual Disciplines*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-slow-death-of-pietism/)**  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Hi, this is Jimmy. On today's episode of Theocast, we are able and blessed to sit around the same table to discuss and meet with our old friend pietism. The other night, we were discussing how pietism dies a very slow and painful death. We also talked about the damage it can cause to our assurance and what we see when we look at ourselves in Christ. In this podcast, we discuss the slow and painful death of pietism and how it can harm us.  
  
In the members' podcast, we get a little bit more punchy as we talk about the dangers of pietism as it relates to the gathered saints in the local church and the damage that it can cause. We hope this conversation is beneficial to you as it was to us. We look forward to you listening.  
  
Here at Theocast, we define pietism as this extreme focus and concern for the interior of the Christian life: that is the feelings, affections, and the things that I do for God and His kingdom. Pietism has a very intense focus on how I feel for Jesus, how I feel when I wake up about Jesus, and other spiritual things. If you've been listening to us for a while now, pietism and our battle against it with this podcast is something that's always on the back burner simmering.  
  
However, we also recognize that pietism dies a very slow and painful death. It is very difficult to walk away from a pietistic approach to the Christian life.  
  
I'm going to throw this out to you guys to help flesh this topic out: why does pietism seem to die very slowly and very painfully?  
  
Jon Moffitt: First of all, it's not like we're talking about a diet or some other temporal matter of our life that has zero significance when we die. What pietism does is it trains your brain to think about eternal matters and where you stand with them. It's a serious matter. Pietism is always looking at the end, which is your eternity with God, and looking at the journey of how you get there. If, from the moment you are born, you are being trained to think about your participation in this end goal, which is how you do or don't perform well as the determining factor of being with God in the end, this is not something that will die easy; especially if how you have learned to think and live your actions, or that what you refrain from, are all determined on that.  
  
We get comments all over or the place where people are wrestling with so many questions under pietism. "What about this verse? What about this passage? What about this sermon? What about this book?" It seems their entire world has been under this canopy of pietism. When you pull that person out from underneath the canopy, they feel exposed. There is no longer safety because in pietism you have a form of control. Then you pull them out from underneath that canopy and they feel exposed and out of control. It's scary.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to add one or two things to what pietism is: it's a hyper-focus on what we should be feeling and a hyper-focus on what we should be doing. It's a hyper-focus on my feelings about Jesus and the things of God, and it's a hyper-focus on my performance in my obedience. How well am I doing at fulfilling my duty?  
  
Pietism tends to invert the relationship of identity and duty. That matters because what we end up doing is we determine whether or not we are legitimate children of God, whether or not we are legitimately in Christ, based upon what we're doing or not doing or what we’re feeling or not feeling.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say, are we deserving of this relationship with God?  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. Like so many other things in life, the switch doesn't happen immediately. It's like a detox season that people have to go through where you have to reprogram the way you think and operate in the way you look at the Christian life. This is hard for us. Why? Because pietism naturally jives with the way we operate.  
  
We may talk more about this in a minute, but we all have a legal spirit. It's as natural to us as breathing. We think about obedience in certain ways: the motivations for obedience must be merit, or they must be the escape of punishment. What else could there be?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Or keeping myself in.  
  
Justin Perdue: Sure. We naturally operate on a Law economy: I need to do certain things in order that I might receive certain things. We're working against all of that, and that's why it takes a long time. That is why pietism dies a slow and painful death.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If you are in the United States, we have said this before that American evangelical Christianity is pietistic. At its core, it is inherently pietistic.  
  
Jon Moffitt: They would be just evangelical enough to say that you're in by faith but pietism then says you are kept in by works.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Perfected by your own works.  
  
Justin Perdue: You're justified by faith, and then in one sense you keep yourself there through what you're doing or how you're feeling.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Because it sounds right enough because, of course, we're saved by faith alone.  
  
Justin Perdue: What's worse is if you're not doing enough or you're not feeling the right things, then maybe you're not legit.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: To use some terminology here, justification is being declared righteous in God's sight, not based off of your own works or merits but solely based off of the works or merits of Christ, applied to you by grace, through faith.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Given the label, but not the substance.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Sanctification is the process by which God employs in our lives to conform us further into the image of Christ. What happens in pietism is there is an intense focus on the latter: justification is what gets you in but the manner by which you are sanctified or how far you are sanctified is how you stay in the game.  
  
Sanctification becomes synergistic: God does his part and I do my part. This is a pietistic approach to the Christian life. God gives me grace and I need to cooperate with said grace in order to maintain my righteous status before God.  
  
What sorts of things does that mindset do to the average everyday Christian?  
  
Jon Moffitt: We look for requirements that are achievable and we can do that through what we refrained from and what we can find ourselves disciplined in. I'm going to refrain from particular actions that are clearly wrong. But in this, we miss the whole letter of the Law, which is why we go after pietism all the time. Jesus doesn't come in and tell us not to steal, instead he tells us not to envy. He doesn't tell us not to kill, instead he tells us not to hate. He doesn't tell us not to have relationships outside of marriage, instead he tells us not to lust.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: How measurable is that?  
  
Jon Moffitt: You're guilty. Period. Then we think greater effort will produce greater righteousness. The reason it's a slow and painful death is that you have what's called phantom fear where you are walking away from pietism, then all of a sudden you have that midnight fear that you wake up and your heart is pounding and thinking, "Wait a minute. What if I didn't do enough yesterday? What if I really did prove that I'm not God's child?" That's phantom fear. The gospel comes in and says Christ is enough, but pietism comes in and says there's still some left for you to do.  
  
Justin Perdue: Not only is there still something left for you to do, but pietism might even say that Christ is enough but you must do these things in order to prove that you're in him.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Or you must do these things in order to prove that you actually believe that.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or that you actually love him or know him. There's this constant project of having to prove oneself in pietism. That's why we'll refer to it often as bondage and slavery, and not freedom and not rest. It's not restful. How could a person ever rest under that kind of schema and framework?  
  
One thing that I think is confusing for many is this: even in the New Testament, we’ll see language like we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. We have been justified, we are being sanctified, and we will be glorified. But what we do with our human brains - because of how we think because we're finite, we live in time and space, etc. - is we think that something that is in the future must mean that there is either doubt or uncertainty about it because it hasn't happened yet, or we assume that because it's in the future, there must be something left to do.  
  
This just blows our brains up. How could something in the future already be accomplished, over, and done? I must have to do something to assure myself of that future reality. Then the preaching, teaching, and writing that we're all exposed to only reinforce those assumptions.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's a prove-yourself theology. We just finished an introductory series on covenant theology. The reason why this theology is so important is that the covenant of grace is what we call an unconditional promise; it's an unconditional covenant, meaning that God is the one who does all of the work. Those who are the elect who receive it by grace receive it unconditionally. If you are a child of God, there is no condition by which you must receive that or maintain it. That is very hard to hear because we hear verses that say "prove yourself" or "examine yourself if you're of the faith". It's fruit language, meaning you better be producing fruit. We hear this without explaining what's going on in the context. That's where you start to think that the reason why you're not with God in heaven right now is that He has left me here to prove that God truly has saved me. I need to prove to God that I'm saved - which is to think that God doesn't know His own.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Pietism within the realm of the Christian life constantly moves the goalposts. It constantly moves the goal. As soon as you are in this sermon series and the application is greater this, or better that, or more affections around this, you move on to the next series and it's a new thing.  
  
I think another reason why pietism dies a slow and painful death is essentially like this: we have some listeners in the UK and our dear brethren over there drive on the wrong side...I mean... on the other side of the road (smile). If you're from the States, imagine moving to the UK and you have to completely switch everything that you are used to. Right turns are not treated like left turns, and left turns are not treated like right turns. What side is the passenger? I would imagine that for those of you who are listening who have had this experience, you would always approach your vehicle in your new country on the wrong side every time. Pietism is like that. When you are coming out of it, you have a very clear set pattern of roles and behaviors. It's almost like a reward system. You have trained your brain that if you do a certain spiritual activity to a certain level, you will receive this kind of reward. If I have my quiet time devotionals to this degree and have these sorts of feelings, today will go well for me; if I do not, God will be punitive towards me, or God is backing away from me and out of His commitment.  
  
We often think that it's like a mirror image with God that as I back away from God, He backs away from me. That is what a pietistic brain teaches. Again, to reemphasize the reason why it's a slow and painful death, it's because you are relearning how to drive a vehicle that you've been in before, which is the Christian life, but it's completely on a different side.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To use that analogy, people email us all the time and say, "I've always thought this button was for the lights. You're telling me it's the gas? I've always thought this was to turn on the radio. You're saying it's for the heater?" It feels that absurd to them when they hear this.  
  
A good example of this is the armor of God. People think that if they don't put on God's armor, they become vulnerable - and they assume the armor is action, whether it's prayer, devotion, or meditation. If you'll pay attention to the armor of God, they are all centered around Christ and the work of Christ.  
  
The one thing that we are told to do is to put faith in Christ and in doing so, Paul is saying, that is what becomes our protection. Our faith in Christ or Christ becomes our protection. Pietism tells you your performance becomes your protection.  
  
Justin Perdue: Thinking more about Ephesians 6 and the armor of God, if you ever hear sermons preached on it, the emphasis is on us. Ephesians 6:10-20 is a great expose on pietistic thinking because the sermons preached about the armor of God are all about us and how we are going about the putting on of the armor. That is the complete emphasis. Whereas what is the emphasis of Paul in describing the armor itself? The belt of truth is clearly God's truth and Christ's truth for us. Breastplates guard us from mortal injury. The breastplate of what righteousness and whose righteousness? Yours? No, it's the righteousness of Christ. It's not about your holiness; it's about Christ's righteousness for you. "As shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace." Is what we're standing on is our performance? No, what we're standing on is the gospel. It's the good news of Christ. Finally the shield of faith, not the shield of obedience or the shield of works; it's the shield of faith that says trust in Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you have never heard that, most likely you've grown up at in a pietistic context. We just told you that your blinker is the gas pedal.  
  
Justin Perdue: Lastly, the helmet of salvation, not that you will accomplish but that's been accomplished for you, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. It's bananas that we would go to that text and make it about us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Can I add one thing? What are the first three chapters of Ephesians about?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: God's work toward His people throughout redemptive history.  
  
Justin Perdue: Chosen before the foundation of the world in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, redeemed by Jesus by grace, you've been saved through faith...  
  
Jon Moffitt: Now we turn it on its head and say it's all about you.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: What pietism wants to say is that you need to accomplish and finish the work that God has begun before the ages began.  
  
Justin Perdue: We're not saying Ephesians 6 has nothing to say to you. Look at Ephesians six and say, "Because I have been chosen by God, because I've been redeemed by Christ, because I've been sealed with the Holy Spirit, because God has made me alive with Jesus, this is my protection, surety, safety, and rock. This is what will protect me from the enemy. This is what will protect me from doubts and fears and attacks of all kinds."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I've seen it on Twitter and some blogs where people come at Theocast and say we hate the Bible, we hate that people read their Bible, and we don't want Christians to read their Bible. One, that is a straw man; two, it's ridiculous; three, it's not that we don't tell people to read their Bible. How blessed we are in this day. Read your Bible. Enjoy it. But what we say and what we mean is we do not read the Scriptures in a personal sense to generate God's affections for us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Or for protection or blessing.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right. We read the Scriptures because it helps us to create an awareness of God's preexisting affections for us, and it benefits those that we live life with in the local church.  
  
Justin Perdue: In one sense, you're reading your Bible for the good of your neighbor, for the good of your brother and sister. You're going to Scripture and reading it, not because it's a part of a personal improvement plan, but to be reminded anew of God and His faithfulness to you, to be reminded of God and what He has done for you, to be reminded of Christ and his sufficiency for you, to be reminded that Jesus will never lose you.  
  
Go to Scripture and see the certainty of your salvation. We go to be edified in Christ as we look to the word.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Pietism highly individualizes everything. Everything becomes about you and God as if you're an only child. In the New Testament, when it comes down to the interaction between you and Scripture, there are two commands given to the local church over and over again: faithfully preach the word in season and out - this is to the preachers and teachers of God's word - and consider how to build one on love and good works. That is what the receivers of God's word have to do with that.  
  
In Acts, as soon as people would receive God's word, they went into the homes and talked about the apostles' teachings and encouraged it. What we do with Scripture is we turn it into me-and-God time. What the Bible does is it says, "Take this holy word and use it to build each other up." Not yourself. In Ephesians 4, it says that when the body functions the way it is designed to function by the Holy Spirit, then it builds itself up in love. Nowhere in Scripture does it say your personal Bible reading is a guarantee to build you up in love.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We are unbelievably blessed in our day and age to have the Bible in reliable translations, beautifully made and crafted with fine leathers, paper, ribbons, and whatnot. So by all means, we encourage people to read their Bibles. But what we're saying is we read it with a different mindset.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Remove the chains.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It is a gift that cannot produce guilt. Why? Because it is the gift that keeps giving you the joy of realizing that what God has done for you in redemptive history through Christ is secure. As you read that and become more acquainted with God's grace that you look to in faith, that benefits those around you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Scripture always promises the church is the means by which you grow through the means: the public preaching of God's word, sacrament, and prayer. What we do is we flip that and we prioritize ourselves. Many feel guilty because they have gone five days without spending any time in the word. My I'll stop them and say, "Are you going to receive the means this week? Because if you are, take heart; you shall be encouraged."  
  
Justin Perdue: To pick up on what you guys have been saying, in pietism, we think that the real stuff of the Christian life happens when we're by ourselves because again, we think this is an individual pursuit. We think it's a project of personal improvement. We think the real stuff happens when we're by ourselves with the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the Bible in my prayer closet. Those things are all good when rightly understood.  
  
But looking at the New Testament, it's impossible to deny that the real stuff of the Christian life happens when we're together, when we're gathered and assembled. Christians did not have their own Bibles for 1600 years of the church's existence. Clearly, even when the New Testament talks about the ministry of the word, it is talking about a corporate context and a corporate reality where we sit under the word and we read the word and we understand the word and grow together as a result of the ministry of the word to us.  
  
For 1600 years, the church primarily grew through the ordinary means and, I trust, through the fellowship of the saints even during the week. If we're going to talk about our life from Monday to Saturday, the corporate reality of the Lord's Day drives that. We scatter from the corporate gathering and we go about loving our families, being good employees, and all of these things. But then even in our interaction with one another, as brothers and sisters in Christ, we're reminding one another of what the word of God has revealed, namely that Christ is our salvation.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Sometimes pietism sounds really, really nice. It can sound very gracious. Pietism can sound very nice because it could be the ten steps to become a better husband or the ten steps to become a better parent. Who doesn't want to do that?  
  
Frankly, many times that stuff continually falls short.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Pietism makes a lot of promises that it cannot fulfill. This is also why Paul says in Philippians that it's not only been granted to you to believe, but also to suffer for are for his sake. Christianity is not about the improvement of your life; it's actually about the death of your life. The only way that you can find true joy and be sustained while we await our final hope is to be reminded of the hope that is in Christ.  
  
We've had people in our congregation recently that have lost loved ones through cancer. Do I go up to them and tell them to read their Bible more and all will be well? No, this is why Paul says we weep with those are weeping and we long for the day of Christ's return because then all will be made well. But now we look to Christ as our hope. We cannot look to anything that would cause us to be morally better or improve our circumstances because there is a long history. Scripture is pretty clear.  
  
Going back to Jimmy's analogy of the slow death, it is really hard to be peeling back these layers. It's like the habits of pietism. It's really hard to get rid of those habits.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think a great theme song for positivism, or rather a theme hymn, is _I Come to the Garden Alone_. It goes, "I come to the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roses, and the voice I hear, falling on my ear, the Son of God discloses. And He walks with me, and He talks with me, and He tells me I am His own, and the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known."  
  
None other has ever had a relationship with Christ-like you do. Think about how we speak in evangelicalism: it's all about this utterly unique relationship that you by yourself have with Christ.  
  
Christ died personally for every one of his sheep. No doubt. He saves you individually and he saves you to a people. He saved us, he died for us, and we are his. We do have a very personal relationship with him but it is not private. It's so unhelpful to talk in these terms because this makes it seem like what really matters is when I'm in the garden by myself, it's just me and Jesus, and I'm meditating and listening for his still small voice.  
  
Brother and sister, what you need is to gather with the other sheep, with the other saints, and sit under the preached word and come to the table to have that preached to you, to be reminded of what Christ has done for you, and to sing and pray together. This is how Christ ministers to his people. Most pointedly, it is promised in the New Testament.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: How many times have we stood in a corporate worship gathering and the worship leader says this time is just between you and the Lord. Why am I here? Why can't I just listen to these tunes in my car? Frankly, I would save some gas money and some time.  
  
Justin Perdue: What we're told in the New Testament is to sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to one another so that we might be built up.  
  
Jon Moffitt: An email we ever get here at Theocast says, "You guys are my church." We won't allow that.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or, "You guys are my pastors." If you're members of our respective churches, we are - and that's not meant to be a slight to anybody.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No, but it's just to help us understand that God has designed his covenant people to be with each other in the community.  
  
Justin Perdue: Another thought here. Where we lose our senses in evangelicalism is when it comes to the question of sanctification. Why does pietism die a slow and painful death? A lot of it really comes down to this issue of sanctification and how we think about it.  
  
We are so prone to think that our sanctification is uncertain, which is not biblical because we're promised that it will happen: we'll be conformed to Christ's image, all those whom have been justified will be sanctified, Christ has perfected for all time all those who are being sanctified, and so on.  
  
We think that sanctification has everything to do with our effort - how we are processing things, what we plan for ourselves, and then what we go about doing for ourselves. How are we sanctified in the faith and what is real sanctification? A lot of it is we are shown more and more the depth of our weakness, inadequacy, and insufficiency, but we are driven anew over and over again to the sufficiency, the strength, the power, the mercy, and the grace of Christ.  
  
We are depending upon him more and more. That's part of it. But how does it even happen often? It happens through trial, suffering, and calamity that we never plan, that we would never ask for, nor do we sign up for. The marvel and the miracle of that is that we are actually grown through suffering. We don't punt the faith. We don't leave Christ. We stay, we trust him, and we grow. That's because God is doing that. The way we talk about sanctification doesn't square with Scripture. It makes no sense that we have to do something; no, God does it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Paul says, when I am weak, then I am strong.  
  
Justin Perdue: But we don't think that way.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. Philippians says, "And I am sure of this, that he would begin a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." We retranslate that in pietism: "I am sure of this, that he who began to go work in you, if you do your best, will come to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."  
  
Justin Perdue: If you are faithful enough. If you do your part.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He then goes on to say, "It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel."  
  
Justin Perdue: Punchy and I'm sorry but I'm not, but Philippians 1:6 is retranslated to: "He will bring a good work to completion in you, as long as you don't prove yourself to be an unbeliever."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We falsely create that self-discipline and sanctification are the same thing.  
  
Justin Perdue: We see them as basically one-to-one.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Those who are called of God are called to discipline, and those who are called of God are called to be sanctified. When he says, "Sanctify yourselves," we confuse the theological term with the action. Sanctification means setting apart. The actions of the world says, "Listen, you're of God. Separate yourself from that." But that and sanctification under glorification are not the same thing.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: When we think of self-discipline or self-control in a pietistic sense, what we often mean is we have a rigorous schedule and personal holiness life. The New Testament talks about how self-control benefits those around you - and I'm not talking about personal holiness life. What I'm talking about is treating one another and loving one another in a self-controlled manner. Look at one another with grace and with patience. Don't become frustrated with your fellow sinners around you.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's all in the language of: "Here's who Christ is. Here's what he has done for us. Here's who we are in him now. Here's how we live together." That's the tone and posture of the New Testament. We just do what the redeemed do. That's it. Imperfectly, we're just going to live like the redeemed live because that is who we are.  
  
To illustrate the slow and painful death that pietism dies, you know how you say things to people sometimes and they look at you like, "Bro, you have lost your ever-loving mind."  
  
One of the things that I've said to a number of people at our church when they come, or maybe they're newer with us, and in particular, when I see that people that are really geeked up about discipleship or doing things for God, I will say to them in basically these words: "Your primary ministry in this church and your primary ministry before God is to just show up here. Just keep coming on Sunday. Show up." And people say to that, "There has to be more to it than that. Are you kidding me? I just mainly need to concern myself with showing up on Sunday?" And I say yes. You know why? Because that corporate reality on Sunday morning will drive everything else in our Christian life. It will propel us forward. It drives that corporate reality, it drives your private life, your family life, your work life, etc. Just keep coming because this is how you're going to be edified. This is how you're going to learn and grow. This is how you're going to be pointed to Christ over and over again. This is how you're going to experience the fellowship of the saints. It will drive everything else so yes, just come.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In Galatians, he says, "Bear ye one another burdens," you can't have your burden carried if you don't come. We come together so that those struggles, trials, and burdens are carried together. When we're entrapped in sin, Galatians 6:1, we have the loving, kind, and gracious brothers and sisters who pull us out because we're not capable. This is what saddens my heart about pietism is that people assume they have the capacity to pull themselves out of sin if they try hard enough. Why would Paul tell someone if they're trapped and enslaved into it to go free themselves from it? This Christian life is not designed to be lived alone.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Before we head into the members' podcast, I'm going to throw this on the table as always. We're talking about how pietism dies a slow and painful death at an individual level, but how does pietism destroy a local church?  
  
Jon Moffitt: We need a whole episode for that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We're going there. Meet us there.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Thank you for listening. I got a little excited here and I think mostly because we ourselves feel the pain of pietism dying daily in us. It's a real thing where we are putting off the flesh, we're putting off pride, and we’re putting off arrogance where we think God has approval of our lives. God has never approved one of our sermons, meaning that it's acceptable in his eyes and He has never approved one of our righteous acts in and of themselves. I know that's mind-blowing for people. The only reason we could ever be accepted in the eyes of God is because of Christ and Christ alone on our behalf.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's good for the listener to understand that we have not arrived.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What is arrival? It's called glorification.  
  
Justin Perdue: We can talk about the arrival fallacy, but we have not arrived. We are still men who are learning what it is to rest in Christ. We are men who are still battling against our own positivism. One of the reasons we get excited is because we're talking to each other and we're reminding one another of what's true and of what Christ has done. If you hear passion or emotion or excitement in our voices, it's because this stuff is landing on us too.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We deal with it every day. We deal with it in our own churches, our own lives, our own hearts, and we even hear it constantly through Theocast.  
  
Thank you for listening. If this is your first time listening, we want to encourage you to come over and participate with us in the members' podcast. This is really the easiest way for me to say this: these are our supporters, these are the people who join in and help Theocast continue through all the different books, media, and education material that we put out. So thank you for that. You can go to our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com to join us there. We'll see you in the members' podcast.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-slow-death-of-pietism-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-the-slow-death-of-pietism/)

---

### MEMBERS: What the World Needs Now (Transcript)

*Published: September 2, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-what-the-world-needs-now-transcript*
*Tags: biblical forgiveness, Forgiveness, Gospel, grace, Rest, salvation, the cross*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-what-the-world-needs-now/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast. We always have like this transition period between when we end the regular podcast and the new, and I'll admit that I may have got a little excited about what we're going to talk about. Justin was laughing at my animation.  
  
Before we jump into this conversation, as always, we want to thank you. We are gaining more and more team members. More of you are coming on to our support team and you are getting behind what we're doing. One of the things that I want to start doing in the members' podcast is to start sharing with you some of the joys we receive as hosts from reading messages from people around the world who are letting us know how the ministry is impacting them. That is because of you. We would not be able to afford to do everything that we do and provide all that we provide if it wasn't for your ongoing support. So please know we don't say that lightly. We are thankful for your support and we are excited about some of the resources coming your way.  
  
Picking up from where we left off, what I don't want you to hear is once you forgive once, you'll never need to forgive again; you'll be over it, it will be a burden that rolls off your back, and you'll never pick up the bitterness burden again. Even in my marriage, when I've offered my wife forgiveness and say I'll never mention that again, I still end up doing so.  
  
Justin Perdue: Or it immediately comes back into your mind and you realize, "But I want to mention that again. I'm not over it. This is still sticking in my craw."  
  
Jon Moffitt: So how do we help someone to warn them that if you're going to offer forgiveness, it is not a one-time offering?  
  
Justin Perdue: It's just like the rest of the Christian life. When we talk about repentance, repentance is not something you do just one time. Repentance is an ongoing thing in the life of the Christian. Because we're always sinning, we're constantly repenting and turning to Christ in faith to receive forgiveness, absolution, mercy, and grace.  
  
For people that are tracking along with us and maybe are attending or are members of churches similar to ours, where there are the word and sacrament realities happening every Sunday - in particular, the sacrament of the Lord's Table - what is that? That is an ongoing sacrament and ongoing ordinance that God has given us where we come, not as people who are perfect, but as people who are weak and feeble who have blown it. We come each week to receive the merit, the righteousness, the satisfaction, and the absolution of Christ by faith in the bread and the wine.  
  
Forgiveness is like repentance in that it's something that we're going to be doing all the time. Like you even said, to really narrow the focus here, we're going to be forgiving people all the time because different people are going to be sinning against you in different ways. You're going to be constantly picking up this forgiveness thing even over the same issue with the same person - like we were just illustrating in marriage. You forgive your spouse for this thing they said or did, but then it continues to rear its head because maybe it's a repeating pattern in your relationship, or maybe because it just sticks in your brain and you can't forget it so easily. It keeps coming up and you remember how it made you mad or how it offended you.  
  
What do you do every time it pops up in your mind and heart? You have to deal with it and say you have forgiven the person. You have communicated that forgiveness and there really is absolution of guilt there. I'm going to extend that even anew in my own mind and heart toward my sister, toward my brother, toward my spouse, or whoever. It's an ongoing thing, for sure.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Paul says we walk by the Spirit and we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. We think of lust as typically sexual or greed - things like that. But the lust of the flesh can be unforgiveness, too. Unforgiveness is a self-righteousness position where you are saying that you are not in a position to forgive someone. That's self-righteousness. It is a desire of the flesh to assume you are better and to assume you have a position that is higher than them.  
  
Unfortunately, a lot of Christianity breeds this in us because we assume ourselves to be a good Christian since we have discipline or moral improvement, or whatever we have done to think we are more spiritual. We can hold this over especially if we think the person that has violated us is not a spiritual person. It's always easy to look down on them.  
  
When Paul says walk by the Spirit, sometimes we translate that to mean Bible reading and prayer somehow. I'm not sure where that came from. I know there are some popular teachers that have taught that. In context, that is not what Paul means - what he is saying is it's an identity issue. He is saying you walk within the identity of understanding that the Spirit dwells within you. How did the Spirit come to dwell within you? Did you force Him in there? Did you manipulate Him in there? Did you earn Him into yourself? That's ridiculous. You walk by the reality of grace, mercy, and forgiveness because that's the only way in which the Spirit has come and made you alive. That's the only way in which He comes and empowers you - it is by the mercy and grace of God that were gifted to you. Every single day you walk in mercy and you walk in grace. This is why it says in 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." We walk in the reality that if it were not for the grace of God and the mercy of God, I would be condemned and damned forever. I would follow the way of sinner but for the grace of God, there go I. The gospel humbles us because of the gifts we have received.  
  
If you are living in a moral improvement community, if you're living in a "do these things and make yourself better" community, you're always going to feel self-righteous.  
  
Justin Perdue: You quoted Galatians 5:16, "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." Then Paul has a lot of other good things to say, but for the sake of time I'm going to skip down to verse 25 where he says, "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ, " etc.  
  
Walking in the Spirit in that context, amongst some other things that we could say, is, "Don't be conceited, be humble; don't provoke each other, and be kind." It's very instructive for us. To your point, you don't hear walking in the Spirit presented that way, but it has everything to do with our posture toward our brothers and sisters, and how we live together.  
  
Along those lines, if I may, this is a public service announcement for all of us; this is not meant to be a slam or an indictment on any one person in particular. Jon and I would count ourselves among the number that I'm speaking to here. Unfortunately, maybe I have a gift of punchiness or sarcasm, and I try to restrain that often, but I'm going to let it go a little bit here. If you are the kind of person who withholds forgiveness from others and demand grace, compassion, and charity for yourself but you are unwilling to give it to other people, you are perhaps the worst kind of human being to live with. That's true in a marriage. That's true in the church. If you withhold forgiveness and you do not extend grace and compassion and charity to others yet demand those things for yourself, you are impossible to live with. You will exhaust people.  
  
All of us would do well to consider and contemplate some of the things that we've been talking about today: most pointedly, the mercy of God in Jesus. We keep talking about this. How merciful has Christ been to us? Let that soak in and sink in and motivate us to be gracious and charitable to others people. It is a great tragedy that those who claim Christ so often beat each other to death and are so slow to forgive and give grace. It ought not be that way. It's not that we earn salvation by being really forgiving - that is not at all what we're saying - but because we have been forgiven and redeemed, and as we contemplate the mercy and forgiveness of God, let us forgive one another and be gracious. It ought to affect our tone, posture, and demeanor toward other people. That's in our local churches, in our marriages, in our homes, and even on social media. It's on all kinds of things.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The Law-gospel distinction that is provided for us in Scripture, when appropriately understood, is the understanding that no one has ever kept the Law. It just doesn't exist. We relativize it and think you are not as bad as other people. God didn't forgive you because you're not as bad as other people; God forgave you because you are condemned. It's not like there's guilty and somewhat guilty. There are no levels of guilt. Like you have the person who actually shot the guy and then you have the getaway driver who is not as guilty as the person who shot them. God says, "You're all guilty. Period." The violation is equal; you're all the same. When we relativize the Law, we can quickly judge people.  
  
One of the things that has annoyed me recently is people walk up to me and say, "Have you heard that Benny Hinn or Todd White has repented? Or Kanye West?" The meme is always, "Well, we'll see." I am so glad that when I was feeling guilty for my sins and I walked up to God and I said, "Father, please forgive me," I'm so glad His response to me wasn't, "Well, we'll see."  
  
If a man goes on and says that he is seeking forgiveness and repentance, thankfully his forgiveness and repentance doesn't have to be perfect in order to be accepted as a child, because if it is then poor, dear Peter is in trouble, David is in trouble, the apostle Paul is in trouble - and those are men we look to all the time and have great respect for. We would all be in trouble. I'm not a name-it-claim-it, I'm not saying just say the sinner's prayer and you're all good to go, but I think we need to be a little bit more careful, gracious, and merciful for people who are traveling towards the gospel and understanding grace. We need to be not quick to judge in those moments and offer forgiveness if they're seeking it.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's a word against judgmentalism. It's a word against self-righteousness. You are commending the extension of forgiveness, which is all biblical. We're not saying throw discernment out the window. We're not saying don't evaluate anything. That's not what we're saying at all. I'm going back to Jesus in Luke 17: if your brother repents, forgive him - no qualifications.  
  
I've mentioned this before on Theocast and I'll say it again right now: that burns me up as much as about anything in the church. We're dealing with church members here where somebody has committed a sin - and I don't care how heinous it is. They've committed a sin and now they're repenting - meaning they are acknowledging that it's wrong and they are saying, "I'm sorry. I did it. I want to be restored. Please forgive me." Then the response of so many in the Calvingelical world is, "Time will tell if you're sincere in your repentance, and we need to evaluate the legitimacy of your repentance for a minute." Some churches go so far as to put people on probation. That is its own kind of absurdity. There are all kinds of informal probationary periods that we put people under so that we can evaluate the sincerity and the genuineness of their repentance.  
  
Again, I'm not saying throw discernment out the window. But if a brother or sister says, "It was wrong. It was sin. I'm sorry. Forgive me," I think we are called to take them at their word and to restore them. To me, it's not that complicated in that regard because we're not God. We don't know the hearts of men and women.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In some of these circumstances where people come out and they're seeking forgiveness, the Christian community, with their arms crossed and offering their criticism and judgments, ends up hurting that person's repentance. We need to continue to administer the gospel, encourage them, and clarify.  
  
In my church, I have had people who did not grow up in Christianity and they say all the wrong and heretical things because they have no idea. So what do I say? "Oh, wait a minute. I'm going to remove your assurance. I'm going to remove your position because you have just said something heretical." The thing with Christianity is it's not like you all of a sudden know everything. Some people just know the absolute basics. "I am a wretch. He's a Savior. He saved me and I'm going to accept that." That's all they know.  
  
Justin Perdue: I was blind and now I see. I was lost and now I'm found. Christ had saved me. Praise God.  
  
Jon Moffitt: John 9, right? The man born blind. He's says something like, "I don't know. This guy saved me. He healed me and I believe in that. Whatever else I know, I don't know."  
  
Again, I agree with Justin. We're not throwing the sermon out the window, but I'm tired of discernment ministries that... I'm thankful that they're pointing out the error, but at the same time, you need to show grace for the grace you've received. There needs to be a healthy balance there. In my opinion, most discernment ministries are critical and judgmental and they aren't leading people towards grace. They're just saying, "Wrong, wrong, wrong. At least we got it right."  
  
Justin Perdue: This is a kind of broad observation about some of the things that we're pointing out. The hesitancy of Christians and churches in general to extend forgiveness or to welcome people in who are making professions of faith - it ought not be that way. We ought to have a posture as a church like, "Oh, you're confessing your sin and you're professing faith in Christ. Praise be to God. Welcome! Come in, lock arms with us, and let's walk together." That ought to be our posture. Sadly, I think we often have this posture of really petty kids or teenagers who are up in the little clubhouse on a tree. They've gotten up there, and it's like their little club, so now they pull the ladder up as quickly as they can so that nobody else can get in. It shouldn't be that way. We're like our own little clique or our own little club. We are comfortable this way and we don't want that person over there - who clearly doesn't understand everything that we do - claiming that they're like us. How absurd is that posture? It's very far from the posture of our Lord inviting those who are weary and burdened to come and find rest in Him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To that point, Justin, the goal is not to be right. Because if that's the goal, you do not have to show love.  
  
Justin Perdue: And we care about doctrine.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Exactly. Because right doctrine leads to rest.  
  
I say this all the time. People are saying, "Preaching the truth. We need to be about the truth." Time out. There's a reason why it says, "in love." The goal is to lead people to the grace of God to find rest. "Come unto me all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Jesus is battling for truth; he is at war for truth but he does it with kindness and love.  
  
We absolutely need to stand for truth, right doctrine, and we should work for clarity, but it should always come from a place of mercy and kindness. The one time Paul does get pretty angry and says some pretty gnarly things about these guys is because they were false teachers.  
  
Justin Perdue: Someone who has compromised or denied the gospel.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. I'm all for calling those people out, but we need to be careful that we don't do it in a self-righteous manner, that we are protecting the gospel and protecting sheep. But even that, our posture should be of one that, "I'm not the apostle Paul, I'm not inspired." I think you have to be careful on how angry and how judgmental you're going to get there. Protect the sheep, rebuke and remove them if you need to, but you need to do it in a spirit that is not judgmental or in defense. Which, to be fair, is difficult to do at times.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to circle back to where we started with the members' podcast, which is the fact that forgiveness is an ongoing thing. God once and for all time has forgiven His people through the sacrifice of Christ. That's clear. Yet think about many of the epistles in the New Testament where the greetings from the apostles are, "Grace and peace to you from God, our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Martin Luther said that we need grace because we're sinners and we need peace because we have troubled consciences. Even though we have been forgiven, we have been counted righteous, we've been reconciled to God, and we have peace with Him, we need to be reminded again and again of that reality. In the same way, we need to understand that again and again, we are going to be extending forgiveness to people. It's not just a one and done. Maybe you might have to remind that person whom you have forgiven at multiple points that you have forgiven him or her, because they're going to have guilt in their conscience not just over the sin committed against God, but potentially the sins they committed against you. You need to be prepared to love your brother or sister and relieve that burden by reminding them that you've forgiven them potentially. So we ought not be bitter, resentful, or exasperated, because we're called to forgive over and over again.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The church historically has corporately confessed sin because when we confess, we all realize we're in equal need of grace and forgiveness.  
  
We will close our podcast this morning saying to sinners who are desperately begging God for forgiveness to extend the same forgiveness to you. The only way to survive a broken, filthy, disastrous world is to look to Christ, receive forgiveness, and then extend that same forgiveness without requirement.  
  
Thank you for listening. Please let us know how we've encouraged you or how we can encourage you. If you have a topic idea, go over to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and leave us a request there. We'll do our best to answer it. We'll see you next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-the-world-needs-now-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-the-world-needs-now/)

---

### What the World Needs Now (Transcript)

*Published: September 2, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/what-the-world-needs-now-transcript*
*Tags: biblical forgiveness, Forgiveness, Gospel, grace, Rest, salvation, the cross*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/what-the-world-needs-now/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, Justin and I are going to solve the world's problem - that is, we're going to tell you what the greatest need everyone has in the world today. I know it's a big topic, but we think it's going to be helpful. In the member's podcast, we have a discussion around who are the most difficult people to live with. We hope you enjoy the conversation. Stay tuned.  
  
Today's podcast is one that I think will resonate with many, or it definitely resonates with Justin and I, because we're both sinners and we struggle as everyone that's listening to this podcast with the current climate in the world.  
  
Now that we're talking, Justin, I would say it has been this way since Adam and Eve. Relationships have always taken a beat down when it comes to two sinners living with each other or multiple sinners in a family living with each other.  
  
As the rhythms of life get thrown off and what we normally do is turn to our coping mechanisms. Whether it's going to the gym, playing sports, attending gatherings, or going to a movie, we do these things to break up the rhythm of life and deal with the frailty of life. Then all of that is ripped away and people are now left with their own sin and their own struggle. What ends up happening is we become hyper-selfish and we go so introspective that we look only to what makes us feel good and what satisfies us.  
  
What do you do? How do you get rid of this anger? Some attempt to get rid of it on other people. I've seen people put things on social media that I've never thought they would ever say. I don't know if that's been your experience. It surprised me that they put that out there.  
  
Justin Perdue: You see a lot of stuff happening right now. Broadly societally, there's a lot of tension and stress and strain on almost everybody, and it's not that the tension and stress and strain creates something in people that wasn't there to begin with.  
  
These stresses and strains and tensions are opportunities and occasions for our sinful nature and the corruption of our flesh to just start doing terrible things. In particular, we start doing terrible things to other people, and that's most often going to be the people that were closest to: our spouses and our kids.  
  
This is a Christian podcast. We're talking to people I presume who are probably members of churches, so this refers to people that you're in church with that you see regularly and you're trying to honestly live with. You start to wound and bludgeon each other in times like now, though we do it all the time anyway. But when we're all struggling and hurting and reeling, and rhythms are disrupted, it's like throwing gasoline on the fire.  
  
Jon and I were talking before we hit record about different things you hear from all kinds of sources in the church and outside the church in terms of what we really need. What is the prescription that will cure what ails us? What will fix this issue? You get a thousand different answers.  
  
I think I know what you're going to say, but how would you respond to that in terms of what is it that we need and what is it that will actually bring some relief, hope, and light into these relational dynamics and into some of these struggles that we're describing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Either you log in to the church, or for those who have been able to reopen, you walk back in o the outdoor-indoor church, and you hear a lot of pastors and ministries diagnosing that people are suffering, hurting, angry, and upset, depression levels are at an all-time high, and marital issues are at an all-time high. You and I were talking about how we've been trying to care and love for people who are struggling. I heard David Zahl say on his podcast this week that he knows of five couples and are very close to them, and all of them are going through a divorce. It's very sad. I'm walking through a couple of families in my church with heartaches, disappointments, and frustrations. How do you care for these people?  
  
What discourages me is the solutions being offered are not even band-aids; it's like Tylenol that's going to get you through the next two hours but when it's over, it's going to be worse because it has festered and you really didn't deal with the problem.  
  
Justin Perdue: I would even argue some of it is worse than treating the symptoms. Some of the stuff that's suggested actually just, on the face of it, makes it worse.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What we're offered is self-help, and these aren't bad or wrong. Exercise, thinking about ways to get out of the house and walk, a good reading plan, or a good book to read - those can all help bring relief. If you're not a Christian, what other options do you have? If you're not going to believe in Christ, your options are to try and make it work as best you can.  
  
But what we're here to do, as Theocast always does, is help peel back the layers and really, they look at the issue beneath the issue. Most relational issues, when it comes down to when two sinners find themselves in conflict, whether it's in a work marital or familiar relationship, at the core of it all conflicts are the result of sin. Whether someone was inconsiderate, impatient, didn't respond correctly, or has held on to being mistreated, all of that just festers and builds up. Then when you tell someone to pay attention to his or her spiritual disciplines, or the way in which they approach their prayer life or Bible reading, what it's communicating is if I make myself better, I can make the situation better.  
  
What do we end up doing? We become self-focused. When circumstances don't work out, like your kids come in and they bug you while you're in the midst of your Jesus time, or your wife or husband doesn't want to get on board with your spiritual path and you're trying to drag them along, people feel the frustration wanting the relationship to be better. They want the pressure to go away. They want result and yet there isn't any.  
  
We're going to come in and point to something that is not rocket science. It is actually going to be so basic. It's going to be hard to believe that the one thing every relationship in the world needs is this one thing. What does Scripture tell us is the number one thing we need in our relationship with God and in our relationship with other people?  
  
Justin Perdue: The answer to that is forgiveness. We are going to talk about forgiveness and our need for absolution to have our guilt removed. Forgiveness and absolution come from God to us in a vertical sense. That has everything that works itself out horizontally in our relationships with other people.  
  
To kick off this conversation about forgiveness, I think it's obvious to anybody who is observant, as we look around broadly in the church and outside of the church, that there is a demand for atonement and reconciliation. There is a demand for all kinds of things in various kinds of relationships all over the place, yet we live in a culture where forgiveness and absolution are nowhere to be found.  
  
This is a very Law kind of economy. Our listeners are familiar with us talking about Law and gospel, grace, and others like this in a Law economy. There is this constant loop of being given the Law, only for you to transgress it, then being given judgment and needing to make this right; you need to atone for it and make reparation, etc.  
  
In that sort of an economy where there is no forgiveness and there is no absolution, it is not only a miserable place to be, but there is no way to move forward in a relationship. It can't be done. What we aim to do today is talk a little bit about the vertical piece of the forgiveness that we need from God, but then really spend our time talking about forgiveness and absolution as we extend it to other people, how vital that is for every relationship that we have, and how the lack of both makes relating to one another miserable and impossible in a fallen world.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is what makes the gospel preposterous; it's what makes it a stumbling block to the self-righteous: God says that to be forgiven, all you must do is ask. That's the requirement. All you must do is ask to be forgiven and the Father would take all of your sins and remove them as far as the East is from the West. As Isaiah says, He throws it behind his back, and He sees them no more. It's in the depths of the sea. That's the requirement.  
  
What ends up happening in a relationship is one will not offer forgiveness if one feels as if they have the upper hand. "I'm not going to offer it even if someone asks for it. Why would I ever forgive you? Because of what you have done to me, you don't deserve forgiveness. You deserve to feel my wrath and my anger. You deserve to sit and think about all that you have done. You need to feel just how much you've violated and hurt me. You cannot repay. If you give me enough money, if you give me enough fame or wealth or whatever you want to give me, you cannot restore the time, emotion, and how you violated me. You do not deserve forgiveness therefore I will not give it to you." This is how we treat people.  
  
Then you think about the God of the universe. One of the thoughts that helped me think about my relationship with God is that God is the King of the earth; He's the Creator, the Founder, and the Sustainer, therefore He is King. He decides how you relate to him in this King relationship, and the King relationship is you love and serve and worship Him, yet no one has ever loved and worshiped and served Him ever. They maybe tip their hat to Him but that's not what He said; He said you are to love, worship, and obey Him. If we think about the constant way our life violates God, God has every right.  
  
Justin Perdue: Our sins against an infinite, eternal, and holy God are so much greater in scope and scale than our sins against one another could ever be. My sin against you, Jon, is not an assault on your holiness because you don't have any holiness. You didn't create me, so you don't have any claim on me the way that God does, in that He made me, He made the world, and it's all His. He is completely good and upright and true. He is the Father of lights; there is no shadow of turning within Him at all. He is the one against whom we have sinned.  
  
I'm looking at five verses from Psalm 32 that beautifully illustrate our posture before God and this whole forgiveness piece. David writes these words: "Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven; whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity," not that there isn't any, but that God doesn't count it against him, "and in whose spirit there is no deceit." He's going to explain what he means about having no deceit, meaning you confess, and you acknowledge your sin. Verse three of Psalm 32, "For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. For day and night your hand was heavy upon me; and my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer." I wasn't confessing my sin. Then he says, "I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my inequity; I said, 'I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,' and you forgave the iniquity of my sin." Beautiful. Blessed is the man whose sins are forgiven, whose sins are covered, and against him, the Lord does not count any iniquity. This is our great need before God, and this has everything to do with our relationship with other people.  
  
If you're going to be forgiven by God, what's the requirement? It's that you ask for it. I agree, and I might even phrase it a different way: it's to see and feel your need of forgiveness which then would prompt you to ask for forgiveness from God. In a verse from the hymn, _Come, Ye Sinners, Poor and Needy_, it goes this way, "Let not conscience make you linger, nor of fitness fondly dream," fitness before God, "all the fitness He requires is to feel your need of Him." The only thing I need to do in order to be fit before God and to come to Him is to feel my need of Christ and to know that Christ is the only one in whom I can find forgiveness and absolution. That's our posture before God. We are really guilty, as the day is long, we have blown it, and God is gracious and offers forgiveness and absolution through His Son.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The woman washing the feet of Jesus is being criticized by all of the Pharisees who Jesus is having dinner with. What does he say at the end of his story? At the end of the illustration, he says, "Those who have been forgiven much love much." He looks at the woman and she gets it. She understands that her posture before God is that she has nothing to offer, and she's washing the feet of Jesus; she doesn't care what anyone else thinks because this man was offering her something which no one else can, and that's forgiveness - to forgive what I am in the eyes of God.  
  
One other story I think is fascinating is in Luke 5 where they bring the paralytic man before Jesus through the roof. The man is now before Jesus and everyone's watching him. In the beginning, Luke records that Jesus has the power to heal. What does Jesus say to the man? "Your sins are forgiven." The whole room erupts: "Who gives you the authority to do that?" Jesus says, "If I have the power to heal, it means I also have the power to forgive sins." The point of it was what this man needed was not healing; what this man needed was forgiveness. Every single Pharisee sitting in that room needed forgiveness; they needed it, but they couldn't see that Jesus is the one who could offer it.  
  
In most relationships, it's easy to hold something over the other person when you feel as if they are beneath you because of what they have either done to someone else or what they have done to you. What the Law does is it absolutely flattens everyone. It comes down, takes everybody's spiritual hierarchy, and crushes it flat.  
  
Justin Perdue: Nobody has the high ground that's right.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When you're standing next to another sinner and you say, "Look, my head is above you," and then you walk over to the Lord and realize His holiness and righteousness, and the way in which you have violated your fellow sinner is a speck of dust compared to the mountain that you have a violated God.  
  
This is where we must begin. Most people struggle with bitterness, anger, and an unwillingness to forgive because they don't understand the forgiveness that was needed between the only relationship that matters in the universe, which is between you and a holy God.  
  
Justin Perdue: The question could be asked: what is it that fuels, drives, and motivates our forgiveness of one another? The fact that I'm called to forgive my brothers and sisters. That's fine that I'm commanded to do it, but what is it that will drive me, fuel me, and motivate me in that? Forgiving people who have really sinned against me, forgiving people who have wounded me and hurt me; it's been painful and hard, but I'm going to forgive them - what's going to help and drive me to do that? It is the forgiveness of God in Christ Jesus. How gracious, how merciful, how patient has Christ been with me? That helps me be merciful, gracious, and patient, and it helps me forgive my brother or sister, my friend, my coworker, my spouse, or whoever it is when he or she sins against me. That's just a great reminder to us in the church that in dealing with one another and in bearing with one another, we remember how God in Christ has forgiven us, and how merciful and patient Jesus has been with us.  
  
Then we also remember other things that we talk about on the regular about how we all have struggles and battles that we didn't sign up for. That's as true for other people as it is for us. In thinking about forgiving others, we are so prone to withhold forgiveness. Like you were talking about that a minute ago, Jon, how we have all these criteria that we impose upon other people and we have this list of demands that are in our minds and hearts: if you do these things, if you jump through these hoops, if you demonstrate an adequate amount of this, or if you do enough of that, then okay, maybe I'll forgive you. That is not a godly posture. That is not a humble posture. That is not what we are called to in Christ Jesus.  
  
You were talking about Luke 5, and Luke 17 is also helpful when it comes to some of these things that we're discussing. The first few verses of Luke 17 goes, "Jesus said to his disciples, 'Temptations to sins are sure to come but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin." But then these words in verses three and four of Luke 17, "Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."  
  
It's astonishing words. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him - full stop. If he sins against you seven times - and seven is the number of completion and perfection, Jesus doesn't literally mean seven times - if he sins against you a bunch of times in the day, and each time he turns saying, "I repent," you must forgive him. This is controversial. That's like the grenade is on the table, Jesus pulls the pin, walks out of the room, and it blows up.  
  
In thinking about forgiveness, we talk about what we need to evaluate. We evaluate the sincerity of somebody's repentance: is there enough fruit of repentance here for us to really forgive the transgression? Have they done enough? But Christ blows that up. If your brother or sister looks to you and says, "I'm repenting, forgive me," you must forgive each other. We would do so well to remember this in our marriages. We would do so well to remember this in our parenting. We would do so well to remember this in the church. If your brother or sister sins against you and asks to be forgiven, you forgive him or her. It's the only way to move forward.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There's a really strong statement that often can be hard to digest. When Jesus says in Matthew 6, right under the prayer, "Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.  
  
It should knock you back a moment to think, "God doesn't take this lightly." This is a weighty situation, and it is so because of the comparison. He's saying, "How dare you not offer forgiveness after being forgiven so much?" No human in the history of the world will ever offer the level of forgiveness that a sinner has received from God. It cannot happen because you cannot be violated in the way in which God has been violated. I know it's really hard for a simple mind to wrap our heads around that because there have been people who have been hurt and violated in ways that are almost unspeakable. I can't even mention them on the podcast because it would be potentially offensive to children or families that are listening to this. I understand that. I have counseled people who said, "But Jon, you don't understand the years and years of suffering that I've gone through," and I don't disagree. I don't disagree with them at all that it's horrendous and it's horrible and it should never happen.  
  
It creates anger in me. There are times that I have physically wanted to hurt the person who violated them, that I have wanted to show retribution and justice upon those people. I feel all of that, yet you have to understand that God has felt that so much so that He created a place called hell. God has felt that so much so about you, that it said He crushed His Son. Instead of taking His anger out on you, He took it out on His Son as your substitute, and God says, "If I have forgiven you and the violation that you have caused Me, you too can forgive." The thing is, sometimes we hear this and it comes to us in an angry voice. I don't think this is the case. I think it's as a Father who has this child on His knee and He's loving them and gently whispering into their ear and saying, "I love you. I have given you so much. I have set you free from the bondage that is called bitterness and an unwillingness to forgive. I've set you free from that. In turn, you can be set free from the bondage you have of what this person has done to you. You can be set free from it."  
  
Justin Perdue: If you were to ask the average person in a church in our American context what the key distinguishing marks of a Christian are, the distinguishing marks about a Christian is that he or she doesn't do A, B or C or X, Y, or Z. Maybe in certain circles you might get certain other marks of faithfulness in terms of things that people are doing. But oftentimes missing from that list is I think the number one thing according to our Savior, and that is our love for one another.  
  
I think you could also add in there, to make a strong argument for a distinguishing mark of a Christian, is that he or she is ready and eager to extend forgiveness to people who have wronged them. It's our love for each other and our eagerness and willingness to forgive. This is like the language of Paul: we pray and we work for the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace. We're eager to seek reconciliation. One of the things that we tell people all the time in our membership classes at our church is that if they decide to come to CBC and become a member, one thing we can promise you is that you will be offended by somebody, somebody will wrong you, somebody will say something, and somebody will do something that will offend you in the end. That's not a question. How do we deal with those things you were talking about in Matthew 6 and Matthew 18?  
  
Jesus tells another parable that definitely has a little bit of sauce on it: the parable of the unforgiving servant. Many will be familiar with that parable where there's a servant who has a large debt to his master. He pleads with the master to forgive the debt that he owes and the master does; the master forgives his debt.  
  
There's that kind of absolution like your debt or your guilt is taken away and you're forgiven. But then that servant who has had this massive debt forgiven goes out into the streets and encounters someone who owes him, by comparison, a very small amount of money. The servant's debtor says, "Could you please forgive me my debt?" and the unforgiving servant does not. He demands every penny and threatens to throw the debtor into prison - and that's what ends up happening. The master hears about it and then chastises that unforgiving servant and says to him, "You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant as I had mercy on you?" And then the master ends up throwing this unforgiving servant in jail. Jesus says, "So also when my heavenly Father will deal with every one of you if you don't forgive your brother."  
  
We will talk a lot in the church about faithfulness and obedience. There are a lot of sermons preached with a real, exacting, threatening tone, but oftentimes the things that are talked about most seriously do not love for one another and they're not forgiveness, but yet Jesus talks in very strong terms about these things. We need to take seriously this call to love and forgiveness, and to mercy. We should be merciful with one another. Not only is that just a critical thing with respect to our understanding of God's forgiveness toward us, but also it matters in every conceivable way in our relationships. At a pragmatic level, if we want our relationships to be able to function in a fallen world, there has to be mercy and forgiveness because we're all sinners and we wrong each other.  
  
We were talking a lot about marriage before we hit record, and I'm thinking about my own marriage. The things that have been most helpful to my wife and me are the tones of grace, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness that God is working in building in our home. Without it, I can't conceive of how this would work.  
  
Jon Moffitt: With my personality, my wife's personality, and how much we clash, if it wasn't for the forgiveness of God towards me and softened my heart, I'm not sure what our marriage would look like.  
  
Justin Perdue: I completely echo what you're saying.  
  
Jon Moffitt: All three of us hosts have talked about the struggle of marriage. Sometimes people think that a pastor's home is like sterile white.  
  
Justin Perdue: That we're somehow exempt from this,  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. That we don't have disagreements and arguments, or that we don't disappoint our wives and our wives don't disappoint us. I live in constant disappointment and my wife lives in constant disappointment, but what gets us through the day? What gets us through the day is that we understand we're both sinners in need of God's grace, and we must extend grace. This is Ephesians 4:32\. It says, "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as God in Christ has forgiven you." As we look at the forgiveness we've received from God, it should cause us to be kind, tender, and patient because God has been kind. It literally says that the kindness of God is meant - and this is Romans 3 - to lead to repentance. When we see how kind God has been, he says in turn, you need to do the same.  
  
I do want to say a couple of things because I know that there are many who will be listening to this who are struggling with forgiveness. I need to clarify that in Scripture, the Bible does not collapse trust and restoration with forgiveness. Don't confuse those. To forgive someone means that you will no longer hold over his or her head how they have violated you, and you're going to set them free there from their guilt.  
  
However, let's say a pastor goes against his calling and violates it in any way, shape or form - like dishonesty, or stealing, the church can offer him forgiveness and should and not hold him guilty for that sin but that does not mean that they should trust him still. Restore him to a level of ministry again.  
  
I would say this is true in a relationship. Unfortunately because of sin, some marital relationships have been abusive verbally or physically. In order for the one who had been abused to get past that, they need to offer forgiveness and not hold that guilt over them. But that does not mean that they need to restore that relationship because it may not be the safest to do that. Forgiveness never means trust. I've had to say this in relationships before with people. I have said, "I have forgiven you, but I do not trust you. For the sake of my family, we're going to need to keep a distance until there the level of trust can possibly be restored."  
  
Justin Perdue: Not only does forgiveness not mean that trust is completely restored, forgiveness does not mean that everything will look the way it looked before the sin was committed. That just has to be clarified. You can forgive someone and decide that the best thing for both of us in a fallen world, before the resurrection, is that our relationship looks different than it used to. That's an important clarification to make and I'm glad that you brought that up, Jon. That is something that we deal with all the time in counseling and in pastoring people. At the same time, circling back to our major theme of the day, there is hardly ever a time, in particular when there's relational conflict and most often in the church, most pointedly occurs within marriages. There is never a situation in which I've been counseling a couple when I don't walk out of the room thinking a couple of things: this would be so much better, one, if they were each more mindful of their own sin than they were the sin of their spouse, and two, if there was a genuine, sincere ability to extend forgiveness to one another. If we want to talk about it from a functional, pragmatic perspective, if there is no forgiveness extended then you cannot move forward. You will forever be stuck in a quagmire of bitterness, resentment, animosity, and vitriol - this will be your life if you are unable to forgive.  
  
You're sitting there and you're thinking, "I'm hurting. I'm been wounded. I'm indignant. What happened to me was wrong." We say, we hear you and we understand that. What's the motivation? Why would you ever forgive? Consider Christ and his mercy to you and how much he has forgiven you. That is what will be the driver and the motivator for you to forgive other people who have really wronged you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Holding onto the bitterness... I'm trying to think who said this phrase, but I'll think of it in a moment: "Drinking poison and hoping that it will affect the person that you hate is insane." That's what bitterness is -it's to think that if I drink this, it's going to hurt them. We think holding on to something is going to hurt them. We think, "That person has hurt me so I'm going to be angry, bitter, and mean towards them. That's all I'm going to repay them." But it can never cause the damage that they've caused to you unless you end up doing the exact same thing to them that they did to you. That is an absolutely horrible way to live because you're in constant bondage. How many movies are out there about someone wanting to take revenge and then once they have it, they're empty? Now there's a double weight of guilt. They feel guilty for holding onto the bitterness, they feel guilty for acting out in retribution, and they still don't feel any sense of right. It's still all wrong.  
  
The only way to have that sense of right is to be set free from the burden of holding that over someone. This is Scripture. This is why there's so much that's commanded as far as forgiveness because it's the only way to be set free from that bondage that you have.  
  
And it is bondage. I've seen people who live in immense depression, and the way that they cope with this is like an addiction; they're addicted and they're holding onto this bitterness. The moment you can be set free from that, because of the forgiveness you have received, you actually can move on. If you've gone through years and years of holding on to this, realize that you've already tried this and it doesn't work. The one solution that God does give you, which is to forgive, actually does work and you will have full restoration when you get into the new heavens and the new earth with a new body. But until then we have to only receive that which we have now, which is forgiveness.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen. I want to frontload what I'm about to read. I don't want to be misunderstood. To pursue justice is a good thing, and so we should avail ourselves of the means that we have in the world, whether that's societally speaking or something else to pursue justice. That's true. But when it comes to how we relate to one another, we have to be honest and just aware enough to realize that there are going to be a million little, and sometimes more significant, ways that we will be wronged, and that there is no systematic way to pursue justice with respect to them.  
  
To your point, if we live our entire lives thinking that I am going to avenge myself against all these people who have hurt me, first of all, it's slavery and bondage and second, it will produce nothing good. God tells us to do something altogether different. In Romans 12:18-19, Paul exhorts us, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.'" It is. We have to trust God in so many of these things. To be content to say, "I've been wronged here. There really is not a lot of recourse that I have. And even if I were to pursue it, what good is going to come of it? I'm going to forgive this person and I'm going to trust God. I'm going to trust Him. I'm going to cast my burdens and anxieties upon Him. I'm going to pray to Him and talk to Him about how I've been wounded. I'm going to trust Him in His character that He will make this right and that justice will roll from heaven. That either Christ will have atoned for this or this person will bear this inequity forever. I will let God sort this out and in as much as it depends upon me, I will forgive and I will live peaceably with others." That's what we're called to as Christians.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're going to move over to the members' podcast. In there, one of the things that's going to come up is that we don't want you to be confused and thinking that once you forgive someone, then all is well, all is set free, there are no scars, and you'll be happy. It doesn't work like that. Forgiving someone once... you may say to that person verbally, "I forgive you," but you may need to learn how to forgive him or her every single day. What does that look like? How do we do that? We'll talk about that in the members' podcast.  
  
For those of you that are new, first of all, thank you for listening. We hope this was encouraging to you.  
  
The way in which we support our ministry and to continue to produce resources is through our support membership. We have people who support us monthly, and we like to try and give them some extra material for supporting us. So you can go over to our website, wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and look at our membership. There are different ways in which you can support us, and that helps continue to spread the gospel of rest around the world. Thank you for your support. Members, we'll see you over there. See you all next week.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-what-the-world-needs-now-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-does-your-job-matter-to-god/)

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### MEMBERS: Does Your Job Matter To God? (Transcript)

*Published: August 26, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-does-your-job-matter-to-god-transcript*
*Tags: job, Vocation, work. christianjobs*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-does-your-job-matter-to-god/)  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Welcome to the members portion of the podcast. Today, we are talking about vocation. Before we get to that, I just want to say thank you to our members for your support, for your daily vocations that you do that enable you to give to this ministry. I just want you to know that it is so valid.  
  
Just to give a small story. I've been interacting with a couple of listeners on a weekly basis now, and I would not be able to do that if it were not for your support so thank you. As you give, it helps us to bring rest to weary sinners.  
  
Just a couple of things I want to remind you of, we're going to do membership a little bit different here in the future. Keep your eye out for that. We're really looking forward to how that's going to function. We also have another primer out called _Safe in Christ: A Primer on Assurance_ \- be sure to check that out, as well as our _Faith vs. Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest_. You're going to start to see a theme there, as these primers come out, that someday we might have ourselves a little box set and perhaps even a book. So keep your eyes open for those.  
  
So Jon, you had the question about politics and vocation that you wanted to bring in. It's certainly a hot topic these days.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Part of being a Christian are those who are very vocal and involved in shaping the future of our country. The current climate within Christianity is good Christians are good Americans and good Americans are good Christians, and that it's the responsibility of the church to keep America morally straight and morally sound.  
  
There are a lot of opinions here so I'm going to try and keep this as biblical as I possibly can and keep my own opinions out of it because in the end, it doesn't really matter what I think. I always chuckle when we get the opinions of celebrities. Why does it matter what they think? On what grounds? Just because they're famous movie stars therefore they should determine what America should look like?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It's actually a logical fallacy. It's called like appeal to authority.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We have people who actually have degrees and have studied and understand history and economics, yet we don't listen to what they have to say.  
  
In understanding vocation and the responsibility of our job, when you think about the book of Romans, it’s written dated conservatively AD 56-57\. When Paul wrote that, if you know anything about the Roman history, for the next 10 years Christians have some of the most horrendous persecution that's really ever been experienced in the world. You have them being put on pikes. They're literally being skewered like meat, burned alive, and used as illustration. So as you walk into the city, Nero is putting these out there saying if you want to defy our religion, if you want to go against us, this is what's going to happen to you.  
  
The hostility didn't happen overnight. It wasn't like all of a sudden, there was this explosion that didn't exist before - the hostility was already there. What we are told by Paul, and you even hear it in Peter, is to pray for those who are over you trying to live at peace with them. You don't ever have Jesus or the New Testament writers attempting to create a new Israel, or a new people of God. That is over with. You also don't hear Paul talking about creating a militia to where they're going to protect their freedoms as believers so that no one can come in and abolish them.  
  
Now in the Book of Acts, they do say, "We're going to obey God rather than men, and we're going to continue to preach the Gospel." But they weren't trying to push back in such a way where they're going to create this Christian culture to where everyone must agree with them. I just wanted to throw that out there that it seems like there's this push that if Christians aren't fighting back against the government and standing up for the rights, then you're not really a Christian and you're not obeying the Bible.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I agree with you. I think you spoke about this last week at your church: it's the whole idea of the theology of the cross versus the theology of glory. I think a theology of glory honestly believes that if we just live in this morally right way, and if we can get everybody else who live in this morally right way, that certainly people are going to begin to find Jesus. Whereas the theology of the cross, it views the world through the cross.  
  
Let's just be frank here: when has the church had its most explosive and true growth? It's during times of suffering and persecution. As we think about our involvement in politics, let me say that the Reformed confessions do speak that when the opportunity is available, good faithful Christian men and women can serve in the magistrate. I think that they can. Do I think that right now in our political climate, it's very difficult to be a Christian full of integrity and live in our political sphere? I think it's difficult. Do I think it's impossible? No.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think it's hard to get nominated.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right. I think that's the bigger idea. If Christians can inspire policy change, if they can work towards some of these social changes, can and should they? Certainly. I think that we should definitely have a voice into the dark corners of our government, but at the same time, I also think that we have to be very realistic. When we think about societal change, ultimately that's going to come through people trusting and believing in the Gospel. We have to be very realistic that that is going to come through everyday ordinary means that as we set up churches in dark places, as we plant more churches and we, as Christians, live out our daily vocations faithfully to the glory of God and the good of our neighbor, that's most likely how it's going to come. It's not going to come through the means that you post on Facebook. In terms of sanctification, I'm nailing it these days in my self-control, particularly on Facebook with all of the memes being posted. If we think that we can change people's minds with a meme, it's just not going to  
  
Jon Moffitt: happen.  
  
I think that throughout history, God has used unique people. Bonhoeffer is an example of that. William Wilberforce...  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Martin Luther King.  
  
Jon Moffitt: William Wilberforce was acting on his own as a Christian.  
  
I vote against any kind of sex trafficking. I try and vote against abortion. There are also women's rights and any kind of racial issues. Our country has come to a really bad place, and yet we've seen an improvement in those areas. I think that Christians should be involved in suppressing evil wherever we can.  
  
I will say though that God's mission is not the transformation of culture. If that is His mission, God's a failure - He's been failing for thousands of years. If it's the mission of the church to transform culture, God has been failing for 2000 years. But God does not fail. Period. He never has and He never will. So either we have misunderstood the purpose of the church or God's a failure. I'm going to go with us misunderstanding the purpose of the church.  
  
Paul says the power of God to change men's hearts, so the issue of most of the sinful things in the world is a heart issue. Men's hearts are evil and the only thing that can change men's hearts is the Gospel. It says it is the power of God to bring us from death to life. When you go to your work and you sell that coffee, or as a mom, you are changing the sheets on the bed for the umpteenth time, even the stay-at-home dad, they feel like they're of less value because they're the stay-at-home dads.  
  
Now I will tell you that as you love your church, your family, and your community, God is transforming hearts and minds and lives through His means and ways - and it's not flashy. It's not this big boisterous event. It is through the ordinary everyday life of you loving and caring, trusting in Christ, and administering the Gospel. Even if you're a congregate where you're thinking about how to build up people into love - that is just as important in transformation. I know it feels like it's not. We want to be on the front lines and we want to be battling, but I'm telling you God has called you to love and care. That's what he's called you to.  
  
I applaud Martin Luther King and I applaud these guys who God used to suppress evil. I think it's great. I don't want to shoot it down by saying it wasn't within the church. God uses individuals all the time to accomplish His will, but I would say that's abnormal. That's not normal.  
  
Martin Luther and the Reformation was an abnormal situation.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: He uses exceptional people at exceptional times to accomplish extraordinary things, but God also uses ordinary people during ordinary times to accomplish everyday things. We can't emphasize enough that the job that you have, the vocation that you carry, it certainly matters. If you grow food, if you sell food, if you cook food, we all need to eat so it matters.  
  
I'll just speak to the chef right now because I like food. We all like food. How do you glorify God in your job? Make me a mean steak so that when I enjoy it, I can get this picture of how this is going to be what the new heavens and new earth is like. Chef Bill here made me a mean steak and praise be to God's name that He has given him an eye and a heart and hands for these things because I can't make it that way. Or I can't grow the food - I have no idea what I'm doing. But God has given us these unique callings and vocations.  
  
I think of when the disciples come up to Jesus and fight over who is the greatest and Jesus just shuns them. He's like, "What in the world are you doing? Often we can think, "I'm just a young mom. I'm just a farmer. I'm just an artist. I'm just the janitor. All I do is pick up trash." Somebody has to do it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And it's not only that, you have to understand that you're a part of a bigger picture. You're a part of something that's bigger than you being a custodian. I was a custodian at one point. I remember where I was cleaning toilets and picking up trash and mopping floors. I wish I had this theology where I understood that my value is not based upon my income or what I'm doing, but this is where God has me and God has me here for a reason, and so I will do my best. I will love, I will care, and I will be a part of God's mission, which is through the church, as a church member, my involvement is actually accomplishing the will of God. When I get to heaven, my life will not be wasted. God will not look at me and say, "How is it that you wasted your entire life washing toilets? What a waste." You just won't hear that when you get to heaven. That is not how God functions.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. Going back to transformational society. I think this is Law and Gospel carried over into everyday life, and I'm just speaking to the three of us even though Justin is not with us, but we would never in our churches throw the Law of God at people and tell them that is how they change - you just need to do more and be better. Yet often this is what we do as society. We just throw the Law at people and say, "Hey, you just need to do more and be better. It's going to work." No, actually the Law and Gospel applies everywhere that what's going to change people is the Law confronting them and helping them see that they are condemned on all sides and then the Gospel coming to the rescue to save them. That is where true and lasting transformation and change is going to come from. This isn't to say that policies are bad. We need policies that are common sense policies to protect life and so on and so forth, but at the same time, when it comes to the individual level, Law and Gospel still apply. The Law will not change people's hearts, only the Gospel will. The law will just confront the heart with what it already knows - that it's condemned on all corners.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I hope this is encouraging. It feels weird to tell people to not live this radical life. You see everything that's going on in this world and you feel like you need to stand up for something. We see it on social media where people feel like they need to stand up for the truth. They put their opinion out there and it really didn't change anything - they just caused strife. I've actually never seen anybody change their mind using social media about something that's big.  
  
But at Theocast, what we're trying to do, even if you just pay attention to the way our social media is, we're trying to help people think through things and point them towards something. We don't think that the world has changed through social media, but if we can help provide resources that point you to directions where podcasts and videos are and even using God’s word, then we're going to do. We believe that God uses His word and His ordinary means by which He transforms the world. That's our mission.  
  
For those of you that are supporting us week in and week out, you are a part of advancing. There are multiple churches that we work with that we're advancing. We're starting more churches. This podcast is not just a podcast so we can talk about whatever we're talking about, but we honestly believe that it's a part of the greater mission of advancing the message that has been lost. Your donation that you think is little and nothing is big, and it is advancing the message which is resting in Christ and also that changing diapers is an important job.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Thank you for listening to this members portion of the podcast. If you find this helpful, we would ask that you would tell other people and let them know that a resource like this exists. We cannot do what we do without your love and your support. Thank you for listening.  
  
Again, keep your eye out for a new way we're going to be doing membership. That's going to be released soon. We invite you to check out those primers, _Faith vs. Faithfulness_, as well as _Safe in Christ_ and share those as well. We love you. We're grateful for you.  
  
Rest in Christ as you remember that your everyday job matters and it’s good. We love you. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you next time.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/does-your-job-matter-to-god-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/does-your-job-matter-to-god/)

---

### Does Your Job Matter to God? (Transcript)

*Published: August 26, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/does-your-job-matter-to-god-transcript*
*Tags: job, Vocation, work. christianjobs*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/does-your-job-matter-to-god/)**  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Hi, this is Jimmy. Is God more pleased with missionaries and pastors than He is with stay-at-home moms and custodians? What does it even mean to be faithful and mature in our everyday Christian life?  
  
Today on the podcast, Jon and I discuss maturity, vocation, and every day that we all experience in our Christian life. We'll go after this over spiritualization and radical movement, and how it's affected our thinking of our jobs and our vocations. In the members' portion of the podcast, we discuss a hot topic: political spheres, and what does it mean for Christians to be involved in policy change and politics in general?  
  
We hope this conversation is helpful for you. It certainly was for us. Thanks for listening.  
  
Something that our church has been doing is we've been walking through the Lord's Prayer and looking at the different petitions that Christ has given us to ask of the Lord. In this past week in our church, we looked at "Give us this day our daily bread." One of the things that I pose to our church is the question, "Have you ever stopped to consider how it is that God answers that petition?" That opened up a whole conversation about the doctrine of vocation and what it is that we do on a daily basis.  
  
We consume Christian podcasts, we read books, we listen to sermons, and we do all of these things that are "spiritual", but the fact of the matter is that every single day, the majority of our time is spent doing very mundane, everyday things. What happens is we can have this dichotomy, which we will begin to deconstruct here in a moment. We can begin to have this dichotomy where this is when I do my spiritual thing, listening to Theocast on the way to work, and then when I get to work, this is when I do my everyday thing - I fill out reports or I am a teacher or a doctor or whatever it is that you do.  
  
What we want to talk about today is the everyday madness of the Christian life specifically in regard to vocation and how we tend to under spiritualizing or over-spiritualize some of these things.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I've only been a full-time pastor for the last 10 to 12 years. Before that I was bi-vocational and right now, technically I'm still bi-vocational. I worked in the secular world for the majority of my life. I worked for Apple and had a career for Apple, and before that, I worked for Stanford Hospital. So the majority of my Christian life and my adult life were not spent as a full-time pastor. I remember thinking, "Oh, I can't wait until all I do is Christian work when all I do is read Scripture and study and shepherd. I had in my mind that that was where the real work of the Christian life is done; that God really uses people is in those who have the vocation of ministry.  
  
Luther really came after this during the Protestant Reformation, because there were people who thought if they could just be monks or priests, then that's where God really comes in and uses and transforms the world and transforms lives. Luther completely flipped it on its head began to help people understand that God is not just using one vocation to accomplish His mission.  
  
You can correct me if I'm wrong here, Jimmy, but I would say the majority of the world does have this sense of the pastors doing the work of the ministry and everyone else is just not necessary for the advancement of the Kingdom. That's how we see it in those two lights.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Referencing what I said earlier, we often create this false dichotomy. That isn't to say that we don't believe that pastors, missionaries, and those who are in full-time, or we should say, paid vocational ministry are unimportant and that there's no distinction. Certainly, the work that you and I do as pastors and the missionaries that we know is valid and important. Not everyone is called to be a pastor. Something I like to say is we have given our lives to this work; we have given our lives to the studying of Scripture and the proclamation of the Gospel to sinners. There is uniqueness there.  
  
However, I think when we misunderstand the doctrine of vocation. What we begin to do is we take this spiritual hierarchy where the work of the pastor almost becomes Roman Catholic where it's like we are the Pope or we are the Cardinals and everyone else has these mere underlings that work to serve us in the church, so to speak, because we bring them the Bible each and every week.  
  
What we want to do is encourage the everyday listener. Perhaps you are listening right now do not work in the ministry. Maybe you are an accountant, or you breed dogs, or you are a farmer or whatever it is may be that you do. What we want to do is encourage you in your vocation in terms of how you think of it and how you process it.  
  
Jon, I'm going to throw this question out to you. I've had this conversation before. You're sitting in your pastoral counseling office and this person comes to you and they say, "You know, Pastor Jon, I just don't feel very spiritual in what I do every single day." How would you encourage that person?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Those are conversations I have had and will have. When I worked retail or I worked in a hospital, it seemed like all I was doing was selling phones and selling computers and I wasn't really impacting anybody's life. I was just advancing a technology company. So I understand those feelings. It feels like day in and day out, I'm not impacting the world, I'm not doing anything for Christ, I didn't share the gospel that day, I didn't give money away that day, or I didn't even make enough money to give money away. We have created the system that what I do on Sunday matters for God and what I do on Monday through Saturday doesn't. What I do on Sunday advances the Kingdom and what I do on Monday doesn't. We've created two worlds: the spiritual world and the unspiritual world. What we're doing when we do this is that we are disconnecting how God works in this economy and in the world.  
  
One of the two commands that we've been given is to love our neighbor, and the purpose of loving our neighbor, as Jesus said, is that the world will know that he has come. This unrealistic affection that we can show is a form of demonstrating the Gospel for people.  
  
Now, I don't think love is the Gospel, so don't you hear us saying that. But the second thing that Paul says is that whatever our hand finds to do, we do it for the glory of God because it's worthy of God's praise. But there's a part of the vocation that we don't see and that is what God is accomplishing through what in our minds are meaningless tasks. We don't see what God's accomplishing. The first thing I will tell you is that your neighbor, to whom you are to love, is your co-worker, is your customer. If you serve them well, you serve them right, and you do right by them, and you do it for God's praise and God's glory, then that is just as important in advancing the Kingdom as it is of the sermon that's being preached on Sunday. I know that sounds like there's no way me selling, mowing the lawn, or changing the diaper are the same as the pastor preaching the Gospel but it is. According to Scripture, it actually is.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think this comes up more frequently than we like to think. Often what you can hear from churches, or what you can hear from the pulpit, is this idea that the workplace is your mission field. To some degree, I appreciate the sentiment, but here in lies the rub that your workplace cannot be your mission field if you are a bad employee. I'm just going to say that flat out. If you cut corners or procrastinate or create a crisis for people at work because you're too busy evangelizing at the water cooler, I just don't think that works. I don't think that's how God has designed it to be.  
  
Again, I'm being a little bit dramatic here. Jon, you're bi-vocational. I myself am bi-vocational. Every day, Monday through Friday, I am faced with 20-plus students for eight hours a day sitting in front of me. They depend on me to deliver curriculum, and their parents depend on me - in fact, their parents pay a good amount of money for their kids to sit in front of me and learn from me. Now what if every day I just said, "Look, I'm bi-vocational and you guys are here to learn but I just really have to do some things. I'm going to flip on a movie and you guys will figure it out." I don't understand how that's either honoring to the Lord or honoring to the people that are sitting in front of me. No, rather I have to understand that, yes, I have some unique challenges being bi-vocational but I think part of me being "spiritual" is coming to school showing up on time, being a respectable employee, honoring my authority that I worked under, honoring the coworkers that I work alongside with, letting my yes be yes and my no be no, and teaching to the glory of God and the good of my students. The same could be for if you're a doctor - we don't want you to cut corners. If I'm dying, I want to know some treatments. Please share the Gospel with me but also point me to some medications that I could use that could take away this pain.  
  
I want us to be so careful that we don't create this false dichotomy that even at work, we can come in and say, "I'm going to do a really spiritual thing by talking to my coworker about my church service." There's nothing wrong with that but when you're doing it at the expense of actually doing your job, you're actually undermining what we're trying to talk about here, which is the doctrine of vocation, that when you go to work, do your job well. Fill out those reports and fill them out correctly the first time, rather than creating crisis for everybody around you to pick up.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Some people think about choosing their careers. When someone chooses to go into ministry, it seems like this is such a big deal. But choosing a career can sound less important and God's not really involved in it. What Luther was arguing for is that people can be called a cobbler, they can be called to shoe horses, to be a printer, to be a restaurant owner, where God is calling him into that. This is their purpose. This is what they should be doing because this is how God's going to use them to advance His Kingdom. The advancement of the Kingdom comes through Christians who obey God, who love God, who do it for His glory and love their neighbor. That's how God uses us to advance His Kingdom, which I know sounds crazy. We think the advancement of the Kingdom only happens when the Gospel is being preached.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There are so many things that need to occur in order for that to take place. Jon and I receive some monetary funding from our churches in order to do the work of the ministry. What would happen if nobody in our church faithfully woke up each morning and went to their jobs and brought home finances and they gave those to the church? It would be really difficult on us. It would be really difficult on our families.  
  
I have very specific people in mind at our church that often struggle with what it is they do. Is it important? How does me raising this crop or how does me doing this job or selling this product... what does this have to do with the ever beautiful doctrine of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone? It has a lot to do with it because your job enables you to meet people. It enables food to be grown. It enables products to be sold that help us all live our everyday lives. It helps fund ministries. It helps fund people. It helps fund pastors and missionaries. Again, I think often we can over-spiritualize, and almost under spiritualize at the same time, what it is that we do on an everyday basis.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I couldn't agree with you more. One of the things that we forget is that we don't live in the church building. We've been programmed to think that the worship of God only happens on Sunday morning at 10:00 AM when the worship pastor - which is a weird title to me - strums his first string. It's like now we're worshiping.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: All pastors are worship pastors, by the way.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Exactly. Worship happens when we are living in the reality of our justification. When we think about how we have been set free from the bondage of sin, that God loves us as he loves His Son, we are adopted, we have all the benefits of Christ now we go and live in light of that. We love, we eat, we drink, we sleep, we work, all-knowing that we are a part of God's great family and a part of God's great mission. The way in which God is accomplishing this mission is how I love my kids, it's how I love my neighbors, it's how well I do my job, because God is in me transforming me, using me for the advancement of His Kingdom.  
  
I said this last night in our men's Bible study: can God just take home to heaven individuals whom He loves? Yes. Because He has on a fiery chariot. Boom. Gone into heaven. But God in His wisdom has decided that He is leading His children here for the purpose of a mission, and that mission is to advance His Kingdom and that the lost sheep of the world would be found well. If we're going to have to be a part of that mission, we're going to need jobs because we're going to need us to provide for our families. And it's not like, "I need to provide for my family so I'm going to go do that." No. Even in accomplishing your job, if it's selling laundry detergent, if it's selling cars, you are a part of God's advancement of His Kingdom and every person you come in contact with, for God's glory and for their benefit and for demonstrating love, you do that job and you do it well, and you do it out of love and concern.  
  
If you're in a vocation where there's dishonesty happening, like you're lying or you're stealing, that's going to be a hard job to do for the glory of God. Leave that job. That is not what God wants you to do. I don't care how much money you're making. If you're lying to make money, and you know it's a lie, then change jobs.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think particularly this is where I want to encourage young moms, because if there's any demographic that is listening to us that struggle the most on a day-to-day basis with just monotony and frustrations, it's young moms who have two, three, or four-year-olds at home in a thankless job. They're waking up, they're changing diapers, and they’re giving meals that often get thrown on the floor or not are not thankfully received.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There's a lot of criticism and hardly any thinking.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's exactly right. Just to encourage the young moms that when you discipline your child for the thousandth time, or when you make chicken nuggets or macaroni and cheese, or you try to give them healthy meals and it's not gratefully received, you can take comfort and rest in the fact that you are doing that which God has given you to do. A lot of times I will hear young moms be frustrated because they have so little time to read their Bibles. They have so little time to spend expended minutes and hours in prayer because they're just constantly being yelled at and pulled at, and they're incessantly disciplining and different things like that. I just want to say to them to take good courage and faith and rest that the Lord Jesus Christ understands your situation; He very much gets it.  
  
I'll never forget when we had our first child. Having your first kid kind of rocks your world, doesn't it? You don't even remember things you used to do before having kids. What did we do at night when we didn't have kids? I don't even know. My wife and I would joke about that all the time.  
  
I just remember feeling so tired and "spiritually lethargic". I was talking to another pastor and he just put his hands on my shoulders and says, "Jimmy, you don't think that the Lord Jesus Christ understands that? You don't think that he gets it?" Oftentimes we think, and I'm just talking to young moms or young parents, that it's like God has graciously given us these children because He thought you could handle it, and that it would step up your spiritual game. At the end of the day, I think God is far more merciful than that. It's like He is saying, "I gave you a kid and boy, do I know that it's tough. It is hard. That's why I made him cute - so you wouldn't kill him." Right?  
  
I just want to encourage the young moms. Luther once said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that often the mom that is changing diapers is far more spiritual than the monk who is babbling Psalms for hours on end in the monastery. That when you change diapers and you help your kids to be nourished, fed, and disciplined, you’re doing the Lord's work in your home. Take rest and comfort and joy and peace and faith. This is what God has provided for you to do in this time of your life, and praise be to His name.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The pressure that most people feel has come from the revivalism and the missions movement, and while they did produce some good things, but it also created some really bad influences on Christianity.  
  
In the new radical movement, there are the lazy Christians who aren't taking their faith seriously. Then there are the Christians who are doing the radical opposite of the lazy Christians and they are taking their faith serious, selling their homes and moving to Ecuador, they are evangelizing while living on nothing because for them, it's more important that the gospel be advanced and live on nothing than it is to change a diaper.  
  
I've told this story before. There was a couple that read about the radical movement and they got rid of all their jobs. In six months they were living in Haiti and they had a little nine-month-old who is starting to crawl. The mother was always carrying the baby around. She felt guilty and wanted to buy this $40 mat because in Haiti, everything was just filthy. She wanted her kid to have somewhere to play on the ground and not get dirty. She felt guilty that she could use that $40 for something else, which I immediately opened up my wallet and handed her a $50 bill and told her to buy it.  
  
There was this pressure on her that it was an unspiritual thing to take care of her daughter. Let's be frank - it wasn't like she was wanting to buy some gold toys for her kid to play with. It's not unrealistic to take care of your kid in that way so that they're not filthy at the end of the day. Moms feel this pressure that what they do doesn't matter, that changing a poopy diaper, making mac and cheese do not do anything for the Kingdom of God. Then they look at the person who is helping the homeless, who is changing the world through their blog, they have a YouTube channel, or they've written these books. I've had this conversation with my wife where there's this pressure to be not just a mom anymore - you need to be side hustling. You've got to have your own Etsy page. Then you can be the Proverbs 31 woman who is bringing in this extra cash in to help the homeless. Or if you've got three kids and you're not adopting all these kids who don't have parents, then you're not doing your part.  
  
Whoa, stop. Just stop. That is nowhere in Scripture. Do you see the apostle Paul calling the church to live that kind of life? He calls us to the ordinary. I love Michael Horton's book _Ordinary: Sustainable Faith in a Radical, Restless World_ because how does God advance His Kingdom? It's through ordinary people doing ordinary things for the glory of God, loving and caring for each other, where you are supporting those children, you're influencing them, and you are forming and shaping them every single day. That mundane job is absolutely important because it's what God has called you to. You don't know what God's going to use that person for, but you do know that God is in charge and this is where God has you. You can take full comfort in knowing this is where God has you right now, and you will do your job and I'm going to love God.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: In a kind of a twisted way, when we have this mindset that everybody must be out there on the street corner evangelizing, we actually undermine Gospel ministry. I think we can undermine Gospel ministry because in a way, it's like looking at the pastors and the pioneer missionaries who do give their lives to these things and saying we can all do that. We don't really need to pay you to do that because we can all just do it.  
  
We have a guy in our church that is a pioneer missionary. He is doing some very difficult work and I want to be so careful to say we're all doing our thing, your thing isn't that important, and we've all got our own important ministries. To some degree that is true, but I want to look at him and say, "You're doing a very difficult work and we love you and we support you. We realize that God has uniquely gifted you to do this work. We, as a church, want to come around you and support you in that way."  
  
I have a question for you, Jon, because we could be blowing up somebody's world right now. I can hear the person sitting across the table from us right now and they're asking this question, "Okay. What in the world then does it mean to be a mature Christian?"  
  
All three of us have very similar kind of sayings. I think you say everyone has an equal need a grace. Justin says, "Imperfect people, perfect Savior." We say, "ordinary people, extraordinary grace." We have all these sayings but at the end of the day, the mission of our church is very simple: proclaim the Gospel to sinners and help them mature and grow in their faith. Now it's that middle word right there where I can hear somebody say, "What does that mean? What does it look like for me to be a member of a church and be a mature Christian? Because you guys are throwing out all these categories right now, I'm just confused." So, Jon, what do you tell someone who wants to know how they can be a mature Christian?  
  
Jon Moffitt: say that's a great desire. That’s wonderful. Paul rebukes some of the church for being babies in the word. I know where you're going with this: we often think maturity has to do with action, and that mature Christians are the ones who are on the front line and holding up the pickets; they're evangelizing and they're running Bible studies.  
  
I just don't see Paul describing maturity in that way. Now he does say that mature women of the church should mentor and love and care for the younger women. Same thing with the men in the faith. Just because you have gray hair doesn't mean you're wise. I know a lot of people with gray hair who do not know anything when it comes to the Bible and they've been Christians their whole lives. Paul's the one rebuking you. What he is going after is that the person who has been seasoned in their faith and where they are resting... I want to go to Paul in 2 Corinthians where he says, "In my weakness," he's talking about the thorn in the flesh, "when I'm going through suffering, and persecution," and he even says calamity. The way I describe calamity is a deer jumping in front of my car and totals my car. It wasn't my fault and it wasn't the deer's fault. It's just this bad thing that happened. He says in all of these, what's being exposed is his weakness. "And when I am weak, therefore I am strong." What does he mean? Jesus tells me that God's grace is sufficient to get me through. A mature person understands that they live in the grace of God and that they are very weak, and without the grace of God, they cannot accomplish anything at all. They cannot accomplish being a parent, they cannot accomplish being an employee, and they cannot accomplish being a citizen of their country without the grace of God. Mature Christians live every single day in the weakness of their flesh, in the weakness of their spirituality, trusting in Christ. Where we mature is a greater and greater and greater trust in the mercy of God to get us through our everyday lives.  
  
Immaturity is people who equate their maturity on their personal actions: if I'm doing this, I'm a good person. If I'm reading and evangelizing, if I'm giving, if I'm praying - all of these actions equate to maturity. But Paul talks about the attitude of the mature: the attitude of the mature is patient, kind, merciful, long-suffering, giving - that’s how he describes a mature Christian. We described mature Christians as the ones who are on the frontline who are radically doing something, and I just don't see that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We create a category that doesn't exist when we say a true mature Christian is the one who voraciously works through their Bible reading plan and systematically has a guided prayer life. Hear us when we say, I know we go at this all the time and it makes people so uncomfortable, but I still see it. I still see it on Twitter. People be hating, but that's fine. Hear us when we say that reading the Bible is, is a good thing. Certainly, prayer is a great and wonderful thing. But when somebody comes to Christ Community Church and they say, "We want to be a member. What is it like to be a mature member at this church?" What I would tell them is we would love for them to trust Christ, to walk in repentance over their sin, to faithfully love and serve this body, and to live out your everyday life and your vocation and responsibilities for the glory of God and the good of your neighbor. Just really simple things. I'm not going to hand you a Bible reading plan and a prayer list because I don't want to add things to you. What I want you to see is that it's our job as a church to point you to Christ, to confront you in your sin, and to help you to walk in repentance and to come around you as a body. It's your responsibility as a member of this church to live out your everyday responsibilities, to do your job, and to be faithful in those things.  
  
Often maturity in the Christian life looks so ordinary: you love those around you, you take care of your family, you serve the body, and you participate in the life of the church through word and sacrament, if you will, you go to work and you don't cut corners, you honor your boss, and you exist "for the good of your company". It's okay to be very normal and average and ordinary because that's maturity.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This just goes back to Ephesians 4 here it says, "When the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love." What's interesting in that context is he says there are all these body members, and then there are gifts for the church: these are the teachers, preachers, and evangelists. God uses these to instruct and build up the church. So you have people who have been gifted in the word and they come in and they administer grace to these people. Then those who are a part of the body, they then use their gifts. We've all been gifted with grace and mercy and kindness and benevolence. There are people who are in our church who are gifted with evangelism. But when we're all using it, the mature Christian understands that his role is to love and care for his congregation. When he plays his role as the hand, the foot, the eye, the mouth, the ear, or whatever it is God has him doing, he is advancing God's Kingdom. Unfortunately, we have just created this world where we individualize our role as a Christian, and that mature Christians are these radical Christians who have these self-motivations.  
  
There are all kinds of things that are going on there. I look at Paul in the New Testament and it seems like he just flattens everything out and says, "When the body functions," not the pastor, not the radical missionary, he says, "When the body functions properly, that's when the work of God has accomplished." It's incredible. Jimmy and I don't feel the pressure that our churches will succeed if we succeed. We understand that our church will succeed as Christ comes in and he empowers every single body member to do his or her part. Then our church will succeed. I couldn't live with that pressure - it's too much.  
  
Certainly, I see a distinction in roles. Allow Jon and I and our elders to come to you week in and week out on the Lord's Day and point you to the fact that you are a great sinner, but you have a great Savior. Now go live in light of that reality as you parent and as you work and as you drive and as you provide, go live. It is our job as pastors and elders of Christ's church to point you to the truth of the Gospel and to remind you of God's Law and His perfection, that you are indeed a great sinner and there is nothing that you could actually do to merit His love or His favor. Yet this is why Christ has come: that Christ has lived, Christ has died, and Christ will come again - and he has done so on your behalf. It is our job to point you to that reality. Your "responsibility", and I'm using that term very loosely, is to trust that and live in light of that - to live status forward. God is so good and so gracious and kind, and I get a weekly reminder of that reality.  
  
It's my turn to throw something at you and we'll use it in the members' podcast. One of the things that's coming up right now is the Christian's involvement in government and the transformation and change in the government. I know we have worldwide listeners so some people who listen may or may not understand what I'm about to say, maybe they will, but we have set it up to where a good American is a good Christian and a good Christian is a good American. The church is in a weird spot because we're mixing those two. There's a lot of bickering, a lot of fighting going on, and it's almost as if it's the responsibility of the Christian to save America in our context. There's the belief that God's not blessing America because the church isn't doing its job. Now the radical good Christian are the ones who are moving in this direction. So I think in the members' podcast, it would be good for us to talk about the involvement of government and vocation.  
  
Should Christians be involved in politics? What does that look like as it relates to our vocation? There was also William Wilberforce who was involved in those things and was a Christian. We'll save that for the members' podcast.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I like where we're going. Well, thank you for listening. We certainly hope that this podcast has brought you rest and pointed you to the fact that Christ is sufficient even in your day to day, every day, vocational life. What you do matters. It very much matters.  
  
I want to leave you with this small illustration, and maybe we can link the video. We have an Ask Theocast video - it's either coming out or will be out by the time this podcast is edited and released - where answer the question, "What does it look like to be a faithful Christian?" in a five-minute video. In there I share an illustration of everyday when our family sits down for a meal. Our middle son, Owen, who loves farming, will remind us as we eat meat, or we eat vegetables, or we eat bread that these things were grown in raised by farmers. He just loves farms and farming. And, and I will say, "That's absolutely right, buddy. These things were grown by farmers." In that moment, my five-year-old understands the doctrine of vocation. We have a farmer in our church that goes to work every day and he raises crops and pigs - and his job is so important. Why? Because he feeds people and he helps create a whole industry because he's got to sell those hogs and crops, we'll have to transport it since it has to go the store and people need to sell it. Then I have to go the store and buy it, so it ends up on our table. When we pray, and I'm going back to the beginning of this podcast, how does God answer the prayer, "Give us this day our daily bread"? He answers it through you. He answers it through fellow sinners who do their jobs and their vocations to the glory of God and the good of their neighbor. So when you go to work tomorrow or when you go to work today, just remember that and keep in mind that when you fill out that report or when you discipline your kid, God is using that for the advancement of the Gospel and the good of those around you.  
  
We hope that this podcast was helpful for you. We'd ask that you would go and leave us a good review, please, on wherever it is that you get your podcasts. That certainly helps us a lot. We read them and it's so encouraging for us to read how God is using this ministry and our vocations in this ministry to help people to find rest in Christ.  
  
We're going to head over into our members' podcast right now. If you want more information about what that is, you can log on to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and look at our total access membership where you can come into a little bit more resources and other fun things that we have just for members only.  
  
Thank you for listening. We certainly hope that it helps you find rest in Christ. We look forward to bringing you more podcasts and resources like this in the future.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-does-your-job-matter-to-god-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-does-your-job-matter-to-god/)

---

### MEMBERS: You're a Bad Christian If... (Transcript)

*Published: August 12, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-youre-a-bad-christian-if-transcript-1*
*Tags: Heaven, rewards, rewards in heaven, the judgment seat of Christ*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-fearing-the-judgment-seat-2/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. Before we go any further, as we always do, we want to thank you sincerely for your partnership with us. We say it every week and it is true that we could not do what we're doing without you. You are an essential part of helping us spread this message of the sufficiency of Christ and the rest that we have in him to as many people as possible. Thank you again for your generous support and partnership with us.  
  
One thing that we want you to be aware of as members is the fact that after a long time of waiting for it, it is possible now to listen to every single Theocast episode - regular and members versions - all on your favorite podcast app on your phone. If you have not availed yourself of this wonderful technological advancement, we encourage you to do that even today. You can go over to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members, and you can find out all the information that you need on how to do that. I know I have done it and it's pretty cool how it's all right there in the same feed - regular episodes and members episodes. You can go back and listen to any of the content that's been produced over the last several years from Theocast. We hope that's helpful and convenient for you and makes it easier for you to find the things that you are looking for. So do avail yourselves of that today.  
  
We're going to continue our conversation now on judgment and reward and all of those things. We're going to begin by looking at a couple of passages that are aimed particularly at leaders of the church and consider those briefly. Then we'll see where the Lord takes us after that.  
  
Let's jump in with Hebrews 13 and James 3.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hebrews 13\. He's closing down the letter and it's after he is done giving you every angle of Christ you could possibly imagine, just Christ from all corners of the earth, from all corners of history, and from all corners of the universe. Hebrews is such a great book and in 11 and 12, he just frontloads that thing. It's this Gospel explosion. Now there are some things that you should probably pay attention to know that you are safe and secure Christ. We are saints and sinners, we are selfish, and let me give you some things that you need to consider.  
  
He begins the letter, "Let brotherly love continue." It's like that theme of reminding us that we are so unloving. It's like this constant reminder: here's the Gospel, Christ is amazing, he loved you, he died for you, and he secured you. Now, will you please love each other? Do not neglect to show hospitality. So he's going through just a lot of simple explanations.  
  
He says in verse 17, "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you." In this context, sometimes this can be used as a fear for pastors or for leaders. But I think what it's saying is that, "Listen, the responsibility that we have as shepherds and elders is that we hold the weight of making the word of God plain and true, and we protect the Gospel. We have to love and care for sheep as a sheep. We are also sinners ourselves, we already have a really hard job, so don't make it harder for us. Be patient with us. Be kind."  
  
Justin Perdue: Throw James 3:1 in with this because they say very similar things. That verse reads, "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness." So in other words, teachers, pastors, and leaders, your job is serious, and you need to be thoughtful about how you wield your authority. You need to be thoughtful about the things that you say. As you stand in particular in preaching and teaching God's word, you stand essentially in the place of God to give God's word to His people. You are God’s instrument in this particular congregational setting to teach people the truth of God. That's a big deal. In one sense, you stand yourself as a fallen sinner, speaking to other fallen sinners on the precipice of eternity, and you will be called to account for what you say there. That's just a good exhortation to us as pastors, preachers, teachers, and leaders of God's church. What we do matters. We need to give of ourselves in sincere ways to the task, trusting the Lord in it always.  
  
What this means is that if you're a member of a church somewhere, love and pray for your pastors. Be a joy to pastor rather than a burden because it doesn't help your pastors and it doesn't help you if you are a difficult person to deal with, or if you're constantly causing strife and division. Don't bite the shepherds that are aiming to care for you and love you. It's good for everybody when we live together harmoniously.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When he says obey and submit, to clarify, if they are administering God's word faithfully then you obey their instructions. Because it's not their instructions - it's God's instructions. But I can't tell you where you should buy a house. I can't tell you what kind of clothes you should buy. That has nothing to do with God's word unless it's an issue of envy or inappropriate use of funds or whatever.  
  
This is a great example of personal Bible reading. They didn't have personal Bibles; they had the teaching and the preaching of the apostles. They had the Old Testament. Typically, the leaders were the ones who had to go to the temple and spend time in the word so they could prepare and bring it to the congregation. It wasn't as if the readers of the letter of Hebrews would say, "I'll just go grab my New Testament." They are receiving the New Testament at the moment.  
  
To those who have been commissioned to give God's word over them, he says, "Submit to them because they're the ones who are keeping watch over your soul." Not by their means, but by the means of God's word. And they're going to give an account not of their own morality, but of course of their own morality since they're qualifications, but the point of it is as it relates to the word of God.  
  
Justin Perdue: As it is, it relates to their stewardship of the word of God and what that means for the church. I completely agree with you.  
  
Just a brief word. Whenever you're faced with a wisdom call or a prudential kind of decision that you're making, it's good to seek a multitude of wise counselors. Your pastors may be some of that number. But in a lot of cases - and I say this to our people regularly - depending on what kind of decision you're trying to make, I'm happy to give you my input in terms of some categories to think through but my thoughts on this are not inspired of the Lord. I'm just talking to you as your friend and your brother-in-Christ, giving you my take on what you ought to do about that real estate decision or whatever. Your point is well-made in that it's a gross overreach of pastoral authority when we start telling people things like you should do this, or you shouldn't do that when we're in the areas of wisdom and prudence. That's just not helpful.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I've been in counseling sessions where I flat out tell him, "You have to obey what I'm telling you, because this is God's word." I was just with a married couple. "If the two of you separate and start having relationships with other people, you're in violation of God's word. You're disobeying." I'm going to flat out tell you that you're not disobeying me, you're disobeying God's word that's coming through me at the moment. This is pretty clear in Scripture.  
  
Justin Perdue: There may be times where something that somebody is going to do is not obviously sin, but it's pretty clearly foolish. We, as pastors and friends in the church, may look at somebody and say, "This doesn't seem like a great idea." But even then that doesn't have a "Thus sayeth the Lord" kind of authority. Whereas when we say things that the Bible says, we are saying the Lord has said this and here we all are, myself included, submitting to this truth of God's word.  
  
I want to circle back, if we can, to the Romans 14 principle of how Paul uses the reality of the fact that we all stand condemned in the flesh in order to humble the Roman Christians and to encourage them toward love and patience and forbearance. I think it's a common problem. You were just mentioning earlier how a constant refrain in the New Testament is, "Here is everything that Christ has done. Here's your status and all those things. Here's your identity. Now, would you please love each other?" That is a constant refrain.  
  
Just as you know, we struggle to love each other. We all are prone to self-righteousness and haughtiness, even in the church. We tend to think that as we learned some stuff and as we figure some things out theologically, especially if we understand ourselves to be mature, when it comes to a particular perspective, we can be merciless toward our brothers and sisters in the church. We can be so condescending. We think we are the ones who have figured this out and if people would just be diligent enough like us, and if they could just be enlightened like us, then they would come over to our side and see it our way. And Paul is exhorting the Roman Christians, "You ought not treat one another that way because we are all debtors to grace. We are all dependent and completely on the mercy of God in Christ." How in the world would we judge each other over something like what kind of food you're eating? In our context today, why would we ever judge one another over whether or not we consume alcohol? Why would we ever judge one another over what kind of schooling decisions we make for our children? You fill in the blank. There are all kinds of things that we can talk about, but we ought not to cast shade on people for partaking or not partaking - and that has everything to do with our understanding of grace and the Gospel of God in Christ.  
  
These passages that we've surveyed today are very helpful and really good for the church. They have almost nothing to do with the way that they're typically interpreted, which is you need to be afraid and you need to try to store up as much stuff for yourself and the new heaven and the new earth as you can. I really don't think that those applications are really to be found hardly at all. I think it's about taking your calling seriously as what we do matters. We've been called to fruitfulness. Praise God we know where we're headed and that we're safe in Christ. Now let's love our neighbor and let's herald and extol the mercy of God in Christ. Let's love each other.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say the greatest motivation for doing Theocast for all three of us, and it's been my motivation now going on in my fifth year, is I want to free people to the mission of Christ, and from pietism and fear. The moment that you see yourself safe and secure in Christ, that we walk by faith and not by sight, that we look to the Author of our faith and who will finish our faith, our salvation, sanctification, and glorification. When we find that all secure that there's no work left to be done, then we can turn to the work that's been given to us by the Father, not for salvation, but because we are saved, from our acceptance, we go do the work of finding the lost sheep. I will tell you, dear member, that once you see the glory of Christ and that you trust in him, there is much work to be done not for reward and not for fear, but out of joy.  
  
I've been doing some research and watching some documentaries on World War II. Imagine that moment where you are relieving someone from a concentration camp. You're relieving them from the fear and the dread of what they're experiencing with the Gospel.  
  
This is what we do: we walk around holding a metaphorical glass of water to those who are perishing and the moment that they consume it and they're brought to it, it is joy unspeakable because you are doing something that cannot be done by any other measure than by preaching the Gospel. My encouragement to all of us in the midst of this chaos in the world is not to be distracted. The world is trying to create a utopia and God's destroying the world. The world's trying to fix itself and God's saying the only hope is in Christ. There is no fixing this world.  
  
Justin Perdue: God's making it quite clear that he's the only one who will bring utopia.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. It cannot be brought here.  
  
So my encouragement to all of us is get ourselves focused in on the clear teaching of God's word. Let's focus our attention on the churches, let's plant churches, let's encourage churches, and let's find the lost and the weary and those who are beat down. Let's encourage them, put our energy there, and be effective not in pleasing God, because that is impossible to do with its own efforts and our own righteousness. If Paul says his righteousness is filthy rags, then there's no way ours are clean rags. It's not happening  
  
Justin Perdue: Thinking about Theocast and in some of our goals in this, I think in even how we understand good works and striving after fruitfulness, now that you have been saved by Jesus - because Christ is adequate and completely sufficient for you, Jesus will never fail you and you're safe, and because you don't have to work to be saved - now you are set free to good works and love and righteousness. You are free to pursue those things. Now that you don't have to work to be perfect, you've been counted as perfect in Jesus, you now are set free to imperfectly love people, serve others, extol the grace and mercy of Jesus, and point others to him. Go and do those good works for Christ's sake and for the good of your neighbor. And you're not doing it - it's not a situation, it's not merits, it's not wages, but it is grace and it is a gift. So you're free to go do these things.  
  
You're not free until licentiousness - that's stupid. We were joking a little bit before we hit record today about how if you herald grace and you continue to extol the grace of God and Christ, some people misunderstand that. They're thinking that we're saying, "Grace, grace, grace, and party, party, party. Don't worry about what you're doing." That's not what we mean at all. It's grace, grace, grace, and now you're free to love and good works. It's a wonderful perspective. It's liberating and it's restful, and it's amazing how you can do work in the midst of resting and you don't wig out the same way.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You are free from being perfect. Now go live.  
  
Justin Perdue: Now go and do good because you don't have to be perfect. Go and do good.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's just an unbelievable concept to think that what was required before is perfection and everyone failed. What's required now is love - now go and freely be imperfect while you do good works.  
  
If you think about it, we do this to each other. Justin, I don't expect you to be a perfect friend or a perfect person towards me because I know I'm not perfect towards you. There is a level of grace between the two of us. But when it comes to a child of God, it's like that grace is now removed and its only fear - no, you live in grace. You live in the constant reminder that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to you. Now go and perfectly serve your Father by faith alone.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's right. Because apart from faith, it's impossible to please Him. That's right. It always comes back around to faith somehow.  
  
This has been a good conversation. I know even for my own heart, our time looking at the Scripture together before we recorded, and then this conversation is good just to remind me and I hope everybody listening of the fact that what we're doing is worth it and that Christ has secured our eternity. Because of that, we can press on and keep pursuing these good and worthwhile things.  
  
Thank you again, brothers and sisters, friends, for your generous support and partnership with us here at Theocast, we're trying to spread this word to as many people as possible so keep telling others about the podcast, keep sharing the content with as many people as you can. We will trust the Lord to do what He sees fit with this ministry in the years, and we pray, decades to come should he tarry. We love you, we're grateful, and we will talk with you again soon.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/fearing-the-judgment-seat-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/fearing-the-judgment-seat/)

---

### Fearing the Judgment Seat (Transcript)

*Published: August 12, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/fearing-the-judgment-seat-transcript*
*Tags: Heaven, rewards, rewards in heaven, the judgment seat of Christ*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/fearing-the-judgment-seat/)**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Are you ready to stand before the judgment seat of Christ? Are your good works the kind that will endure or are they all just going to be burned up? We answer a listener's question about these very things.  
  
We get this question all the time at Theocast - about the judgment seat of Christ and about heavenly reward - and we want to look at it today from a biblical perspective. We will survey a number of the passages that are commonly referenced with respect to this. We hope that the conversation is clarifying, helpful, and encouraging. Stay tuned.  
  
So we got a listener question recently, and we get this question a decent amount. Even in my time at Theocast, we've gotten correspondence about the topic that we're going to be discussing today. I think it's one that has produced a lot of confusion in the church and people were just unsure of what to do with these particular passages that we're going to be looking at today.  
  
The topic for today's discussion is that of the judgment seat of Christ for believers, and in particular the judgment according to works or giving an account of our lives and heavenly reward for good works done. We're basically going to be answering the question, "how should we understand the judgment seat of Christ and the principle of heavenly reward for Christians?"  
  
Before we dive into the particular passages, it is worth mentioning that there is not much ink spilled in the New Testament on this. There were really only a handful of passages that deal with reward and the judgment seat of Christ. We're going to try to highlight each of those today and spend more time in a couple of them because they're lengthier. But we're going to try to highlight and survey all of them and hopefully bring some clarity into this conversation.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would say those popular ones, for sure.  
  
Justin Perdue: Sure, we'll spend more time on those. That's where we're headed: the judgment seat of Christ and heavenly reward.  
  
Jon, help us, brother. How do we understand these things?  
  
Jon Moffitt: It has been used, I've seen it used my entire Christian life, and it pops up here and there. We are going to several different texts threads and we'll see links where this language is used to control the Christian from final justification to rewards to fear of standing before God because of judgment.  
  
I would say that normally when this passage is presented, it's never explained in context - the book and purpose of the book and the section of Scripture. They don't take time to look at the tone, the purpose, and the goal. They just assume that it says, you're going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ, so you better be aware, and you better be fearful because what you do matters.  
  
When I was in seminary, I can remember an entire four classes where we were studying the different rewards and he had systematized the different rewards one could potentially have based upon their level of effort and work here. You could have a kingdom, you could be a landowner, etc. Your status here will determine your status in the new kingdom. We are going to definitely do a podcast on this coming soon about the laborers in the vineyard.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even the parable of the talents, potentially.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Does that mean that pastors have the greatest seats or missionaries have the greatest positions in heaven? What it turns into is that we become so focused on what we're going to gain and what we're going to get out of this Christian life as it relates to physical status and physical rewards in heaven that it can and does cause great discouragement. It can cause comparative righteousness where we feel that we are better than others because of the labor that we put in.  
  
What we here at Theocast want to always do is bring relief and rest for the Christian. We want to motivate you to demonstrate kindness and grace and mercy - we want to motivate you towards the gospel. I believe that this idea of putting fear in someone's Christian life, depending on what they're doing because they're going to stand before Christ, or motivating them towards reward is dangerous. We're going to look at the context and realize that this is not what the writers of the New Testament had in mind, specifically Paul and the writer of Hebrews. So we'll start with 1 Corinthians.  
  
Justin Perdue: One other general comment from me before we look at particular passages. I think our overarching understanding of these passages is going to become clear, but I think for us, rather than these texts producing fear or encouraging people to just accumulate as much stuff for themselves as they can, our understanding of these texts are that they are to give hope and encouragement in the midst of life in a fallen world.  
  
Even in one particular example, the judgment seat of Christ is meant to humble all of us so that we love one another better. That's our general take on these things and we're going to try to unpack them passage by passage.  
  
Jon, we want to start in 1 Corinthians 3\. Is that where we're going to go?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. I think we're going to do things a little bit differently today than normal. We keep things general, but we felt like it was a good podcast to actually look at the texts and show people that... before we get into these passages, we encourage you that if someone brings to you a verse or two that are famous verses like "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ," it would do you well to go back and read the chapter and then maybe even read the whole letter and find out what's the purpose of it.  
  
Justin and I did this together. We said before we bring this before the listeners, let's talk and make sure that we understand what the purpose of the book is. What's the purpose of this section? What is this chapter covering?  
  
Justin Perdue: We spent 30 minutes reading and talking and looking at the words, sentences, context, and everything else.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Just to make sure that we had an agreement on what those were. Justin and I have had conversations about this for a long time now. It’s not the first time we thought about it.  
  
Let's jump into the text because one, not only are we going to answer this question, but I was telling Justin that I think the exact opposite is going to happen: those who normally are afraid and find discouragement in these verses are going to find hope and encouragement. It's going to be flipped on its head where you'll find rest.  
  
Justin Perdue: Last public service announcement for interpreting Scripture: not only do you need to always take things in context as John was just encouraging us to, and as we are going to try to do today, but something that we would discourage you from doing is what might be called proof-texting where you just isolate verses and use them to prove a point.  
  
Something else that we warn people against is an outlook, a perspective, or a hermeneutic called Biblicism where you take verses and pit them against one another. It almost makes the Bible come across as schizophrenia: we would pit the idea of standing before the judgment seat of Christ over and against our promise of justification by grace, through faith, and in Christ alone. We ought not do that with Scripture. We need to be able to hold these things together in an appropriate tension even, but we ought not cancel one text with another or pit one text against another - and Biblicism does that all the time where it creates tension and mystery where there isn't any in Scripture.  
  
I hope that's helpful to the listener. So Jon, let's look at 1 Corinthians 3.  
  
Jon Moffitt: A famous letter where Paul is dealing with a number of issues. The church is divided, all over the place, and promoting all kinds of promiscuity and issues within. In this particular section in the beginning of the letter in chapter three, you are dealing with the issue of the church becoming divided. Paul is not trying to whip them into shape as far as it comes to morality. Paul does this almost in every single one of his letters: you see it plainly in Ephesians 4 and Colossians 2 where he's trying to create unity within the body where the focus is on. He says in Colossians 2 that there are people who have come into the church and they're taking your focus off of the Head, which is Christ. He's using the same kind of language here.  
  
We know the famous accusation. He begins by saying to them, "I wish I could give you and call you spiritual people, but you are so far of the flesh." Then he goes to explain. He goes, "Listen, your foundation, the way in which you are building your spiritual life, is on men. You are dividing yourself. Some of you are saying you're with Apollos or you're with Paul." He gets really irritated with them. Even if you begin in verse seven, it says, "So neither he who plants or he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building." He's beginning saying, "The labors you're doing right now are creating legitimacy based upon who has trained you."  
  
Justin Perdue: "There's jealousy among you," he says, "there's strife among you." They're wigging out over what tribe they're a part of, in one sense. Are you with Apollos? Are you with Paul? Are you with Cephas or Peter? He's saying none of those things are of any value. There's one thing that's a value and that's where he's going in verse 11: there's one foundation of the church and that is Jesus Christ. Then he's going to talk about doing good works upon that foundation beginning in verse 12.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you miss verse 11, then you missed the whole illustration of what he's saying. The Corinthian church is divided. They're building their reputation, their foundation, upon the reputation of another man in his righteousness or his spiritual level or his giftedness. Paul comes in and he says, "For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on a foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay straw-" Again, famous section, right? We're talking about that which is going to be burned, "each one's works will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."  
  
Justin Perdue: A couple of observations for me. This is just a broad observation of Corinthians in general. Paul rebukes the Corinthian Christians for a lot of things in the whole letter, but he is not calling into question their salvation. He even makes that clear here that it's not that you will not be saved, but he is pointing out that some people are going to do works by faith in Christ, built upon the foundation of Christ, not motivated by following particular men or tribalism or anything like that. Then there are going to be other kinds of works that are done out of these selfish, vain, and silly motivations, where it's out of strife and jealousy and all these things. I think that's the distinction that he's drawing is that there are going to be some works done by faith in Jesus, built upon the foundation of Christ and not motivated by this silliness, then there are going to be other things done in a different vein. Some of those works are going to stand and some of them will not, but it's not a fearful thing. It's not that the works that you have done that aren't going to stand are going to damn you - it's not that. He is saying that they are not of the value that work done by faith in Christ for the sake of the unity of the church and the good of your brothers and sisters. Those works will stand in a way that these other silly things will not.  
  
Jon Moffitt: How many times did Paul have to say, "We walk by faith, not by sight," right? The Christian life, what we do - Hebrews 11:6 - without faith, it's impossible to please God.  
  
Here is an issue of their putting their faith in alignment to something other than Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: They're looking to something other than Jesus.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Because of it, they're causing division to where if everyone is building their foundation on Christ, it will unify us. And we will realize that there is no reason to boast, none whatsoever, because our foundation is Jesus Christ. Not anyone else.  
  
Justin Perdue: One way I might sum this up is anything that you're doing that's causing unnecessary division in the church is going to be burned up. Anything that you're doing in Christ Jesus, by faith, that is producing unity, but in particular unity around Christ, will stand.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He goes on and says, "Do you not know that you "plural" are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple." Now we always assume that's drugs, sexuality, and even tattoos for some...  
  
Justin Perdue: We assume that that's an individual "you" and it's not. That is corporate. Do you - the church - not understand that you - the church - are the temple of the Holy Spirit? And that the unity of the church and anybody who destroys the church - this is really bad. God takes offense when people destroy the unity and the love in the church.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Paul's strongest language comes to those who have divided the church. He says some things about certain men that they should treat themselves in ways that sound very painful. Anytime someone comes in and brings division amongst the body, that's where Paul gets worked up.  
  
He continues on in verse 18: "Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness," and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile." He is dismantling all this. They are so impressed by the prowess of those who are around and they're finding their legitimacy based upon who it is that they follow. Paul comes in and says this is causing division because they should find their hope inside Christ as their foundation, not another teacher.  
  
Justin Perdue: Verse 21; let no one boast in men. The conclusion at the end of it, verse 23, because you're Christ's, you belong to Jesus, and Christ's is God's. So the issue is you ought not boast in men, you ought not to wig out and divide over which men you're following. Do you not know that all of you are in Christ Jesus and Christ's is God’s? He's arguing for unity and love in the church in the context here. That's how we should understand all of his language about works that will stand and works that will burn up. It has everything to do with that unity and love in the body and that one foundation of Christ - we're rallying around Jesus and not anything else.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It would be safe to say that I don't think Paul here is throwing at us the fear tactic of get-yourself-in-line-or-else. He is actually saying like Hebrews does: don't grasp on to anything but Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: He's not also telling people that they need to concern themselves with doing a bunch of good stuff so that they'll get a lot of stuff in heaven. That's not the point. Make sure that you make bank for yourself in the new heaven and new earth - that's not the point. The point is let's exalt Christ, let's extol the mercy, love, and grace of Christ, let's build on the one foundation, which is Jesus, and let's pursue unity in Christ in the church.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right now, when he says, "If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward," we have no idea what that means. And the fact that God's going to give us a reward for trusting in Christ is crazy. Why would He do that?  
  
Justin Perdue: It's grace. I'll throw this in. I think Mike Horton does a great job of describing something of what this reward will be. The praise and the rejoicing of heaven is going to be part of our reward in that on that day, when the good works of the saints are extolled in Christ Jesus, we are all going to be standing on the tabletops celebrating what's been done for Christ's sake, and not because we did something incredible. No, Christ is worthy, and praise be to his name that this was done in faith.  
  
The language of reward is very ambiguous, and we don't know what that means. A lot of times it's talked about in very material terms like how big your house is going to be, or how much property you're going to own, or how much money you're going to have. That, at best, is being read into the text and at worst is just incredibly deceiving and it misguides people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think the pridefulness of our heart causes us to... Again, we have the nature of comparative righteousness; it's built within us. The depravity of man always wants to be able to look at the guy next to us and say, "I'm better and I've done more." Where we learn from Scripture, that everyone has an equal need of grace, everyone is saved with the same amount of grace, and everyone is saved in the same manner - and the reward is Christ. The moment you put your faith in Christ, it's been gifted to you. According to Ephesians 2, the moment you do that, your reward instantly - whether you live a thousand years or one day - is Christ and him crucified. We don't know what those rewards are; we hear words like crowns. I think the point of it is that even for the writers in the New Testament, it's outside of their earthly knowledge to know what this looks like; they're just grasping at trying. I'm trying to use language when John writes in Revelation. I'm trying to use language that I don't have words to describe what I'm seeing. Here's my best shot using the languages here.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm mindful of the thief on the cross where Jesus looks at him and says, "Today you will be with me in paradise." If you want to know what the reward is ultimately, that's it. That is promised to everybody who's in Jesus by faith that you'll be with him in paradise. Anything else on top of that, we can trust that God is good and that the new heaven and new earth are going to be epic. It's going to be epic primarily because God and Christ are there, and we are with the Lord.  
  
Let's transition to 2 Corinthians 5 in light of what we're just talking about right now. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." Let's think about this and its context. In 2 Corinthians, Paul is largely defending the legitimacy of his own apostolic ministry throughout that letter. At the end of 2 Corinthians 3, we've got some wonderful language about the revelation of Christ and how, as we behold Jesus, Paul is a minister of the new covenant and in the new covenant Christ is revealed; as we behold the Lord Jesus, we're transformed from one degree of glory to another. He talks in the early part of 2 Corinthians 4 about how through the revelation of Jesus Christ, the light of the knowledge of the glory of God has shone in our hearts as we behold the face of Jesus Christ.  
  
Then he talks about how we have treasures in jars of clay. I think what he's talking about there is we have the treasure of the revelation of Jesus and we, as stewards of that, are like jars of clay holding a treasure within them - we're just trying to steward this well as apostles. Then he gets into it at the very end of that. He talks about how they, like he and other apostles like him, as opposed to these super-apostles, often face afflictions and trials and things that are hard. Then he talks about the hope though. He says in verse 17 of 2 Corinthians 4, "For this light momentary affliction is preparing us for an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." Then beginning in 2 Corinthians 5:1, he starts to talk about heaven; he starts to talk about the guarantee of heaven and how it's certain. He says in verse five, "He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." That sounds just like Ephesians 1.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Like a big flashing light for context.  
  
Justin Perdue: God has done this, and the reason that you can have hope in current affliction and trial is because the new heaven and the new earth is coming and it's certain, secure, and it's guaranteed. God has done this; He has promised He's faithful.  
  
Verse six says, "So we are always of good courage. We know that while..."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Which is in the same paragraph as the warning.  
  
Justin Perdue: Yeah. "We know that while we're at home in the body we're away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, and not by sight." Verse eight, "Yes, we are of good courage," there it is again, "and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away," this is verse nine, "we make it our aim to please him." And then he says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of God." It seems that in the context, we're talking again of the guarantee of heaven. We're talking about hope in the midst of affliction. Paul says we are of good courage and so we work, and we make it our aim to please God.  
  
You talked earlier about how, often in this whole conversation about the judgment seat of Christ and even reward, fear is what controls. Paul says something very different in verse 14 of 2 Corinthians 5, "For the love of Christ controls us." It seems that the controlling piece and the motivating factor is something altogether different than fear. Those are just a few thoughts from me on 2 Corinthians 5\. Jon, jump in.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I couldn't agree with you more. When he says, "We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." In that context, think about when you're in persecution and you're struggling. I would even put it in today's context when I'm having conversations with congregants where they are in despair; it feels like the world is collapsing in on us where it's COVID-19\. It's racism, its sexual deviancy, politics, people are dying - I've had so many church members that have lost family members more this year than I've ever had in the past years. Then they can't go to funerals because of COVID-19\. This week alone, I've had two members who had serious surgeries. So it just feels like the sky is falling for some people. They know it's not, but that is the feeling that they carry around with them - and I am sympathetic to that because I too feel the weight of all of this.  
  
Then there's the weight of my own sin and the weight of my own struggle. You literally begin to think, "Lord, this is chaos. Why can't you just come back? Why are you making us endure this? You're clearly not choosing to fix this because people are still dying, and they're still suffering, and they're still fighting, and there is still chaos. It's been this way for thousands of years since the like flood. So you're not coming back anytime soon even though we wait and anticipate your return." So the attitude can be, as Paul says here, us just rather wanting to be with the Lord. And Paul said, let me encourage you, going back to 1 Corinthians 3, he had said that you're a worker for God. God did not leave you here so that you can prove your salvation. God did not leave you here so you could do something that gains rewards for you. He left you here with a purpose and a mission, and that purpose and mission is to love others with the gospel, and to love each other for encouragement because the lost sheep still must be found.  
  
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." He's saying what you do here matters because it's the advancement of the gospel. I'll go back to 2 Peter 1 where you don't want to be of no effect or of no value, that what you're doing here as a believer, as you're following Christ, is actually advancing the mission which is the proclamation of the gospel to the believer and unbeliever alike. So when he gets down to it, it's not a fear passage at all; you have the commendation of the Spirit, you have to walk by faith. "For the love of Christ controls us," verse 14, "because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died." He's giving this constant encouragement that you are two things: you are safe and secure. Look to the love of Christ.  
  
What you do actually does matter. It's not useless. Because I can tell you, it feels like life is worthless at the moment, nothing's happening, the world's going to hell in a hand basket, Christians are being stupid and they're fighting with each other. Paul says everything is fine. In the midst of chaos, the love of Christ will keep you and realize what you do does matter. So don't become lazy. Don't give up. You don't want your life to be useless. You want your life to be of value. It is an encouragement towards value and love, not fear and judgment.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's right. Let's be fruitful. Let's be effective. Let's advance the cause of the gospel and God's plan of redemption. The love of Christ controls us. He died for all that those who live might no longer live for themselves but live for Christ's sake - that's verse 15.  
  
Then he goes on to talk about being ambassadors for Christ in the latter part of 2 Corinthians 5 and yes, I agree that it's not a threatening passage. It's one of encouragement and spurring people on in the midst of suffering and difficulty. It's like saying it's worth it, that what we’re doing has value and it's meaningful and we're not wasting our time. In 1 Corinthians 15:58 it says labor in the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain. Rather than Paul standing in the back of the room, cracking the whip, and screaming at people, it's more of him at the front saying, "Brothers and sisters, let's lock arms and let's work for the good of our brothers and sisters, and the good of our neighbor, and for the sake of Jesus. Let's do this because we know that the end is incredible. We know where we're headed. Let's have hope in the midst of suffering and let's do this together." That's seems to be the tone.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To your point, it says in verse 21, "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Chapter six, "Working together with him Christ, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain." It's this constant motivation. You have the righteousness of Christ in the midst of pain, suffering, and chaos; you're being left here and it's for a reason.  
  
I will say, Justin, that you and I both will admit we fall into the trap of thinking its God's responsibility to keep our life clean, pure, and happy. We forget that God's promise is not to fix this world and to not heal this land and not to remove all sickness and pain. I believe that this remains to remind us that this life cannot provide anything that He never promises.  
  
Justin Perdue: Early this morning, before you and I got on to talk and then record, I was reading some and I was praying. The month of June has been bananas in my world. It has been a crazy season; COVID has taken a toll on me as a pastor and even as a Christian, we've moved this month into an apartment, and just various things going on. I felt kind of weary and at times, just very frustrated and discouraged. I'm grumbling in my heart and mind, if not out loud to my wife.  
  
I was praying this morning that God would forgive me for those sins and that He would give me grace that I might not grumble and complain and be frustrated, and that I might have hope in this and realize this world is not my home and God is not obligated to make me comfortable. But He has given me an eternal and living hope through His Son. This is our experience practically every day in this Genesis 3 world.  
  
Apostle Paul writes very honestly of these things. He talks in other contexts. 2 Corinthians 1, the very beginning of this letter, he tells the Corinthian Christians, "We do not want you to be ignorant of the things that we experienced." They had it so bad that they were despairing of life itself - and here we are. I agree with everything that we're saying, but it matters and it makes tons of sense that Paul would write in this way or speak this way to stir us up, spur us on, give us hope, reassure us and tell us to press on for the sake of Christ and for the sake of our neighbor - and it's worth it because we know where we're going.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Paul dedicated his life for the building up of the church at large, not just one church, but also all churches. He commissions each local church to make it their aim and ambition. Ephesians 4, "Take every effort to maintain the bond of unity and peace," is what he says in Ephesians 4:1-2\. He gives this language of strategy as a believer to build and protect the church.  
  
As we remain here in this life, you can pursue money, life, sex, fame, and all of that is going to disappoint you. You will be utterly disappointed at the end of your life. If you dedicate your life to the building up of the saints and the advancement of the church around the world, if that's where you put your life and your focus, you'll have purpose and meaning because it is for eternal value. Also, you understand that only in Christ do we have hope and joy and satisfaction. If I put my attention, my foundation on Jesus Christ, not building the church as far as bigger buildings and numbers - that's not what I mean. I realized that the mission that I have here is not to find relief, but to give relief totally through the message of the gospel around the world and believing the gospel is God's power and it can transform lives around the world. When he says that there's a strong warning to the person who just is not very careful about their life and they allow their life to disband and destroy the church - there are some pretty strong warnings against that.  
  
In turn, I would say take all of this frustration, take all of this discouragement about what's going on in your context. Even this fear - remove the fear and turn it into faith and encouragement and joy and say I actually have a purpose for life. God has left me here with a reason. I may be a truck driver, I may be a nurse, a mom, and I may be a pastor, but my responsibility is still the same: to love and care for and build up the people of God and the church as we minister around us and know that. That is an eternal value far greater than working on my own morality. I'm not saying morality doesn't matter, but it's so introspective versus pushing us outside of ourselves to a greater global purpose, which is the mission of Jesus Christ. We're called to bear fruit.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even thinking about 2 Peter 1 where he says be effective. The fruit is always a relational fruit and it's a fruit in the context of the local church, it seems to me, when God talks about us being fruitful.  
  
I'm mindful of like the parable of the sower. Whenever you think about being fruitful, a lot of times we freak out and we think wrongly that the Bible tells us to strive after effectiveness or to strive after unity or to strive after fruit and all those things as though you could blow this and really mess it up and not produce fruit. Christ says in the parable of the sower that those who are good soil will produce fruit. Some thirty-fold, some sixty, some a hundred.  
  
I'm mindful of Ephesians 2:10 where we're told to do good works, that we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, but that God has ordained them for us to walk in it. They were prepared beforehand. We need to trust Christ, strive after these things, and pursue these things knowing that the fruit will be born and that good will happen, and that the Lord is the one who does it. It's all of grace. So I think those things are confidence giving.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I was going to add one thing to the whole fruit conversation. In the fruit context, what we always miss is that Paul is talking about the unity and the encouragement of the body. That fruit is designed not to bring assurance or to secure yourself with God, but the fruit is for the benefit of others. "Consider how to build one another up in love and good works." After he says this, even in Ephesians and in Hebrews, it gives you what can cause the division, which is a lack of patience, kindness, and mercy.  
  
Justin Perdue: Talking about patience and forbearance, another text really quickly before we head to the members' section. In the member section, we're going to deal with Hebrews 13:17, James 3:1, and some of the passages that are aimed particularly at us giving an account. I want to do Romans 14 at least right now in a drive-by way. We may pick up more on this in the members' section because this is another one.  
  
Romans 14:10 says, "Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God." Paul is talking about the stronger and the weaker in the church - this is very similar to things that he writes in 1 Corinthians 8, and even 1 Corinthians 10 like eating meat sacrificed to idols and all those things, how some understand that they're free to do that in Christ and then some are really bothered by that in their consciences. So Paul is encouraging them to live with one another in a loving and understanding way. Essentially in verse 10 of chapter 14, he's saying, "Why do you pass judgment on each other? Do you not realize that we all stand equally condemned in the flesh? Why in the world are you judging each other?" Basically, understand who you are in the flesh, understand that we are all debtors to grace and mercy, and love and deal with one another. Give charity, give grace, and bear with one another in love. That's the encouragement. I think that's a great word for everybody when it comes to the issues of Christian liberty and how we live in the church. Paul never gives a sweeping prohibition of anything. "Don't ever under any circumstance eat meat sacrificed to idols." He doesn't say that. He tells him to do something much harder: love each other. He's humbling them, in Romans 14, with the reality of the fact that in the flesh, they stand condemned. Therefore, because you've been saved by Jesus, love others who have been saved by Jesus.  
  
A lot more could be said on that, but at least for the regular listeners, they can at least hear the Romans 14 piece.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would just say interact with us. We post our episodes in a Facebook group every week and it's a great way to hop on there and ask us questions and follow-ups. It's not a debate group, so if you're going to go in there because you want to drop bombs and debate, that group is for people who are beat up, battered, and tired, and they just want to hear more of Christ. It's a great group of friends that get in there to encourage. We help each other find churches and even good book resources. If you want to join the conversation, go join us at the Theocast Facebook group. That would be a good place to do that.  
  
Jon and I are about to make our way over to the members podcast. If you don't even know what that is, you could go to our website Theocast.org and find out more information about our membership and all of the good things that come up along with that. We are grateful to you for giving us a listen this week. We hope this conversation has been encouraging, clarifying, and helpful to you in various ways. We are going to handle, amongst other things, Hebrews 13:17, James 3:1, and maybe a little bit more Romans 14 in the members' area. We will see you over there.  
  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-fearing-the-judgment-seat/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-fearing-the-judgment-seat-2/)

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### MEMBERS: You're a Bad Christian If... (Transcript)

*Published: August 5, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-youre-a-bad-christian-if-transcript*
*Tags: blacklivesmatter, covid19, Gospel, Legalism, metoo, Pietism, Racism, Reformed Theology, self righteousness*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-youre-a-bad-christian-if/)  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Welcome to the members' portion of our podcast. We are talking about the issue of '"You're a good Christian if..." or "You're a bad Christian if...”  
  
Before we get there, I just want to say a quick thank you to our members. We can't do what we do, we can't have all sorts of fun, without your love and support. Thank you for supporting this ministry and this podcast. I say this every time I introduce the members' podcasts but if you could only see the emails, the texts, and the different messages we receive from the people that are being profoundly helped by the ministry of this podcast, you would be so deeply encouraged. So thank you for supporting us. You are 100% the reason why we are able to do this. Thank you for your support.  
  
Jon, I think you are going to lead us in here with some sort of fun, punchy intro line. Why don't you take it away?  
  
Jon Moffitt: As all of you guys have been having ongoing conversations with church members and friends, the conversations at times get very heated and pointed. By nature, my personality loves a good debate. I don't like to necessarily argue with people because that can get offensive, but I don't mind debating somebody about their position - and I will definitely push back and even take an opposing position not because I believe in it, but I want to hear the logic behind why it is that you hold this position. This has happened quite often lately.  
  
One of the issues I'm beginning to see, and it's coming to light when it comes to something like racism or abortion, is we are trying to fix the past, but the past is in the past and it cannot be fixed. In other words, we're trying to right a wrong and we are going past our generations into the next generation to drum up the sins of the previous generation. We're putting those on to the shoulders of our generation. What I'm being told is, and I don't disagree with some of this, we aren't aware of the weight of what we have done.  
  
To be honest with you, I think in 50 years, our generation is going to feel quite ashamed about how lax we were on abortion and just how much it really wasn't something that we took very seriously. That's just my opinion on that. But when it comes down to something like race, it's horrendous to think what has happened.  
  
I've been watching a lot of World War II videos, shows, and documentaries. It was horrible what was happening during this time in our world and how the Germans were treating the Jews. It's ridiculous. It's horrifying. My wife asks how I am able to watch that. I told her that honestly, I watch it because it reminds me of how horrible humans can be. It reminds me that we are one step away from our hearts doing the same thing. There's no difference between the Nazi and the American. They have the same heart issue.  
  
Justin Perdue: Were it not for the grace of God, there go we. It's good to be sobered in that way.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What I constantly am pushing back is that I can't fix the past, because the past is in the past. I can't give enough money. I can't give enough speeches. I can't give enough away because you cannot right those kinds of wrongs. In other words, if someone dies, you can't fix that death. They're gone forever. There is no fixing that. You can put a person in jail, but it doesn't really right the wrong. As a matter of fact, there's no way to truly right wrong in this world. There's no way to reverse sin - and this is what we're trying to do, we're trying to reverse sin.  
  
What I'm pushing people towards is this reality of that no matter how hard you try to fix the sin issues in this world, they cannot be fixed. I'm not saying give up and that we negate our responsibility to suppress evil where we can. I'm not saying I'm a passivist in this way. What I am saying is that there is a solution and it feels like we are ignoring it. There's an ultimate solution and there's a temporary solution. Because the heart can be changed where sin comes to light, and that is through the knowledge of the gospel. But I feel like the gospel becomes the last solution or, or a not even a solution at all. I almost feel like people think less of me that every time I say the actual solution to every single problem in this world is the gospel, that I am not dealing with the situation seriously.  
  
Justin Perdue: The gospel is dismissed. To your point, it's almost like you should be ashamed if all you're doing is "preaching the gospel". You need to be doing more than that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Romans 1:16 has something to say about that.  
  
Justin Perdue: No kidding. 1 Corinthians 2:4\. "They decided to know nothing among you other than Christ and him crucified." Others have made this point. At least in the inspired letters that he wrote, how concerned was Paul with the social issues of his day? Not very, it doesn't seem. He doesn't spill ink in Holy Scripture about it.  
  
People may push back and say, "But God hasn't revealed definitively everything that could ever be revealed." That's true, but He has given us what we need to know. He has given us what is of first importance, like 1 Corinthians 15\. It's the gospel that is primary. Then under the banner of love of neighbor, we can talk about all kinds of good things that we can do. I think we've been very clear about that on this podcast, but it does need to be said over and over again. It matters not how much you do in this world - you will never fix it. There will never be utopia this side of the resurrection. It can't be done. That does not mean that we just bury our heads in the sand and batten down the hatches because the world's going to hell in a hand basket. That's not what we're saying, but. You need to be realistic about what you can do.  
  
That's why we need to concern ourselves with our congregations and our communities. We need to live where we are, love our neighbor where we are, and realize that how we're going to make an impact is one conversation and one cup of coffee at a time. We're not just going to go out and transform the society. But we can love that person in our apartment complex, or we can love that person at the gym whenever we can go back to such a facility, we can love our brother or sister in the church and help meet practical needs, etc. We can do that stuff. But we're not going to transform the culture broadly by how activistic we are on this thing or that thing, or how we vote this November.  
  
I think this can be said in the members' podcast. Here's my encouragement with respect to voting: exercise your responsibilities as a citizen, vote according to your conscience, and regardless of how you vote, we're going to have a lot of problems. There will be no utopia. Whether you are Republican or a Democrat or an independent, you're going to write in a third-party name because you're not going to choose between the lesser of two evils. Wherever your position is, there will be no utopia. Utopian notions that are blue or red or any other color need to be exploded by thoughtful people in the church, all the while, we go, and we vote, and we exercise our responsibilities as citizens.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Christians should vote. A lot of Christians say they're just not going to vote. I would say if you have the opportunity to suppress evil, I think you should.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I'm going to say something, and it might come off wrong, but let me just ask you guys a question: how's your church doing with the Me Too Movement?  
  
Remember when that was all over Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and everything? Please hear me when I am trying to say. What I'm not trying to say is we're done with sexual abuse within the church. Not at all. But this goes back to the point I made earlier in the regular portion of the podcast that we are enslaved to the urgent. We are enslaved to the today. If we are going to do that, unfortunately, what I think this does is it makes the outside world actually not take Christianity seriously because we're just like everybody else. We attach ourselves to what is most pressing, what is most urgent, what is most trendy. What I think it does is it actually undermines the work of the gospel and the everyday Christian life.  
  
Justin Perdue: The Me Too Movement is a perfect illustration of the fact that the shelf life on any given fad in the church is about 18 months.  
  
I saw some stuff on Twitter in recent weeks and months where the implication was, if I look at your Twitter feed and you are not saying as much about this issue as you are this stuff, then I'm basically writing you off.  
  
I personally make it a practice to basically never tweet or Facebook post about current events. I do that for a reason. If you want to charge me with being a guy who doesn't care about current events, I'll take that shot. I live in the world, I'm a citizen just like you; I'll happily take that shot. For my portion, I'm just going to continue to preach Jesus and the truth of Scripture. If that is unsatisfactory, then I'm going to go to bed at night and trust the Lord with it. Like we've said, if preaching the gospel and encouraging our people to love our neighbor is not enough, then so be it. We're going to continue to do this and we're going to continue to trust the Lord.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If I could just kind of insert one quick thing here, have you ever noticed how the tone is in light of these things? When we talk about focusing on the implications of the gospel, have you ever noticed how it's done? It's done with a tone of shame and guilt. The last time I checked, shame and guilt are what drives people to therapy, not to obedience.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We are set free from shame and guilt. No condemnation.  
  
Justin Perdue: You're exactly right, Jon. Theologically, that's a virtuous comment to make. Mine is less so. Mine's a pragmatic observation. Guilt and shame don't work. That dog won't hunt. They've never produced anything good in anybody in the world or in the church. It's not like we just should not use guilt and shame as pastoral tools. Guilt and shame don't work in the culture. They will not produce lasting change. It's it cannot be done.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When a child has been raised under that kind of a mentality, they are bitter.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Therapy. What I just said. Something about the Law increases the trespass. I think I read that somewhere. But the point is, so often the posture of trying to get people to change or trying to get people to care about the most recent social issue is we try to guilt and shame them into doing so. It just doesn't work.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to go back to what Justin said as an illustration. Me Too is no longer in rotation not because it's fixed. It'd be one thing to say we abolished that all sexual crimes. Done.  
  
The reason why at Theocast, we constantly push you back to the gospel is because there is one thing, and nothing else, in Scripture that says contains God's power: the gospel. You're walking into a war against everything we've named, and you're going to grab a weapon, and what is sad is Christians are grabbing every single weapon except for the one that contains the power of God. That's what's sad. Then we get laughed at when we grab the power of God to go to war, we get laughed at and told it's not enough, but it is the only thing that has power and yet you're telling me it's not enough.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Again, it's what makes Christianity laughable in our culture. When we attach ourselves to the current trend, all of a sudden people look at the church and say we only care about what's trendy. They accuse us of not caring about this in a month or 18 months, for sure. In so many ways, that is true. I hate to say it and maybe this is a super jaded of me, but the sad fact of the matter is that in 18 months, most Christian pastors and churches are not going to be making statements on racism. Maybe a giant hurricane going to come through and it's going to be about helping the displaced. It's just going to be the next big thing.  
  
I know that sounds super jaded and a lot of people are going to say I have such a low anthropology. But so does the Bible, and so did the church fathers.  
  
So I am just always going to take the stance that I'm going to preach the One who never changes, the One who is the same yesterday, today and forever. That's just what makes the most sense.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm listening to you guys talk and I've made some similar comments over the last hour, but these kinds of conversations stir me up and spur me on in my calling as a pastor, and then even as a Christian.  
  
It's all right if we get shot at, if we get laughed at, if we get mocked, or if we get ridiculed for always going back to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Where else would we go? What else would we do?  
  
Again, not to say that we can't be involved in causes and that we can't do good things. Like you said, Jon, if you can prevent injustice then, by all means, do it. But we need to quit deluding ourselves into thinking that we can pull these things off. It sounds just like the charges that we get all the time about obedience, in general, is that the gospel is great, but now we need to move on to the stuff that really matters. We need to move on to like the rubber-meets-the-road stuff so that we can really get about the business of the Christian life and making a difference. You are absolutely deceived and you're kidding yourself. If you think that any of those things that are meaningful could ever be done apart from the power of Christ and the gospel, they can't be.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you were to go to all three of our churches on one Sunday, it's all the same flavor: Jesus Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: In every good way that could be meant.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's not because we're trying to copy each other but because we believe this is what Scripture truly offers the weary pilgrim. One of the things about Theocast that has brought me more energy than my own little context, and even watching Jimmy's context, is that when people start listening to the gospel, the phrase "helping weary pilgrims rest in Christ" can also say gospel. That's what this means. When we made it our mission to make that the focal point of what we talk about, and there are a lot of great podcasts out there, but we wanted to help people weed through everything that is out there and help them logically see Jesus is the only solution and him crucified.  
  
The emails and comments that we receive are just refreshing because people, once they rest in Christ, it is life-transforming for them. It is so different. The air is so clean and pure.  
  
But the message of the gospel as is, as it's being laughed at in our current context, we who trust in it know that it is the only solution. We care not to have the approval of the world because we have the power of God. That is one thing I pray that you, as listeners, will never forget that what you're holding on to is laughable in the eyes of men, but in the eyes of God, He says it is the source of all power. Trust in Him.  
  
Justin Perdue: At our church, one of the things that some of the people will say with respect to being offered and given Christ and the gospel, is "we got the goods today". Thanks for giving us the goods today. That's something I would encourage people as they think about their church experience. When you're evaluating the service that you just attended, don't ask yourself, "Did my pastor say something super insightful about some current cultural issue?" The questions you need to ask are, "Did I get the goods today? Was I given Jesus in the word? Was I offered Christ? Was I called to come to the table to receive Christ in the bread and the wine? Did that happen today? Was Jesus Christ for held out to me today or not?"  
  
If that's happening in your local church context, praise be to God. Keep showing up because that's what's going to carry the day, not just for the next 18 months while something's trendy, but it's going to carry the day for as many years as the Lord gives you.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Gentlemen, I think we gave the goods in this podcast today. Thank you again to our members. Thank you for listening. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for your support and your love. We hope this conversation helped you and benefited you in some way. If you believe that, please share our podcast with someone who you think would also benefit from this.  
  
This has already come out, so I'm excited about our new primer, _Safe in Christ_, our little primer on assurance. Make sure that you pick up that primer and maybe pick up a few and hand it out to those in need of them. I know assurance is that thing in the Christian life and in the Christian Church that not many people want to talk about, but it is not the wallflower at the dance; it is in the center of the floor with its awkward arms flailing about.  
  
Thank you for listening. We love your support. We're grateful for you. We hope you tune in again next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/youre-a-bad-christian-if-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/youre-a-bad-christian-if/)

---

### You're a Bad Christian If... (Transcript)

*Published: August 5, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/youre-a-bad-christian-if-transcript*
*Tags: blacklivesmatter, covid19, Gospel, Legalism, metoo, Pietism, Racism, Reformed Theology, self righteousness*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/youre-a-bad-christian-if/)**  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Hi, this is Jimmy. You're probably intrigued by the title of our podcast today, _You're a Bad Christian If_. Today, we discuss a lot of different things that are floating around in the Twittersphere and our culture today. So many things are being said about COVID-19, racism, and the current cultural moment that we are looking at, and it can feel like if we don't adhere to somebody's certain viewpoint that we are bad Christians. That's what we discuss in the main portion of our podcast. We even dig back a couple years ago into the cultural moment of the Me Too Movement in our members podcast. This was a pretty lively conversation that the three of us had. We hope that it will be beneficial to you. We know that it's going to stir up some conversations so please tune in.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The title of the podcast today is _You're a Bad Christian If_. There is a movement, and it's not new, because of particular issues that are going on today - but they are heightened. There is a concentration of traps that Christians can step in. It seems like I have stepped in every single one of them and I am a bad Christian today because I have stepped in all of these traps that are set by the culture for me.  
  
What's really going on here is comparative righteousness. "I believe this is how something should be done and you're a bad Christian if you don't hold this perspective that I have." Not only am I going to tell you that you're a bad Christian if you don't hold my perspective, but there's also a works of righteousness that you must perform in order to make yourself acceptable or dig yourself out of the hole that you find yourself in. If I have to live up to the standard that's being presented to me in the news and by other Christians, that I will never be considered a good or right Christian and that I will be a bad Christian, because I can never live up to everyone's expectation. It's on both sides.  
  
Here is what's sad is that we can't seem to agree on what is the right answer. This is not one particular topic in our culture. When it comes to COVID-19, abortion, political parties, racism, every single time I turn around I'm failing somebody to live up to whatever standard I need to live up to. If you don't have the foundation of the gospel propping you up, you can live in massive depression thinking you're such a horrible Christian because you cannot live up to these standards. That's what we're going to talk about today. _You're a Bad Christian If_ as it relates to the current cultural wars that we're dealing with today.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I've worked in various churches, went to a Christian college, and attended a large Calvingelical church in college. One of the things that I've noticed is that there is a consistent theme within Christianity in that very few times do we actually argue about the substance of the gospel - what it is and what it is not. More so what we seem to spend so much time focusing on is the implications of the gospel.  
  
In fact, the implications of the gospel then in turn become the gospel itself. Here's an example of that: in light of where we've been the past few months, the way that your church or your pastor handles the COVID-19 pandemic sheds light on what they think about the gospel. If they do or don't require their churches to wear masks, if they do or don't serve communion digitally - it's all of these if-then statements that we set the standards. If we believe this about Christ, then we will necessarily behave this way. We give so much attention to them: then we will do this, we will act like this, we will say this, we will think like this, we will read these books, we'll listen to these podcasts, we'll watch these documentaries. The applications of the gospel become the massive standard-setter of the faithfulness of the Christian.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You're basically talking about a new Law.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's absolutely a new Law. We say it all the time, but it bears repeating that the implications of the gospel are never the gospel. Your observations are entirely right, Jimmy, that we're not debating one another with respect to the nature of the gospel itself, we're dividing over and we're debating one another with respect to our stances on wisdom issues. We're even debating one another and casting shade on one another based upon how vocal we are or are not, and how active we are in the public sphere and all these various areas: abortion, racism, political parties, COVID-19, and all of these things. What we want to do is stand on the clear truth of Scripture.  
  
We said in a podcast recently that racism is from hell and it's wicked and its sin. Abortion and murder are sins; the Bible is very clear about these things. But when it comes to our role in the public square, when it comes to even public policy and things like that, well-meaning Christians who confess the same gospel can disagree on some of those things and could make different judgments when it comes to what's wise and what's prudent.  
  
A distinction that's really important for us to remember when it comes to not only life in the public square, but when it comes to various things like wisdom calls and how vocal should we be, and what should we be doing as believers, church members and especially individual Christians can and should be active in all kinds of things in the world; whether that's the political processes, whether that is being active in causes to end injustice, individual Christians can be involved in all of those things with people of good will. But then the church as an institution is a very different conversation when it comes to the broad mission of the church. We need to be careful in terms of how we define it.  
  
I'll go ahead and do this; I'm willing to take darts if people were to throw them in my direction: the mission of the church biblically defined is the proclamation of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments for the salvation of God's elect. That's what we concern ourselves with doing as pastors, as the church, and as an institution. So, yes, encourage your people to be involved in anything that they see fit. If someone is passionate about something, great - go for it. We'll fan that flame. But you're doing that as a citizen and as a member of the society. That's a good thing for you to do but the church as an institution is a different thing.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If I were to rephrase our title, _you’re a Bad Christian If_ to what Justin is saying, it is this if God accepts me, and then you fill in the blank.  
  
Jimmy, I want you to answer this correctly: why does God accept you? If what?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Only because of Jesus Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right. There's only one answer. Always one answer to that. But what we're being told today is God accepts me if I hold this perspective and I promote this view of abortion, God accepts me; if I hold this perspective of racism, if I hold this perspective of COVID-19, if I'm democratic or libertarian or whatever. Really what we're dealing with is assurance; your assurance before God is now tagged to a cultural issue that you must have on this position.  
  
Paul is writing to the church in Colossae in Colossians 2\. In the beginning of the chapter, he says to them that he wants to write to reach all the riches of the fullness of understanding of the knowledge and the mystery of Jesus Christ. Everything he is about to write following is so that their assurance would be full of the richest understanding of God's knowledge.  
  
The next thing that he says, verse eight, "See to it that no one takes you captive," you can translate captive as being stolen away or having someone rob you, "no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human traditions, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." What should not be stealing you away is anything other than Christ.  
  
I sent you guys a clip of a prominent Christian recently that says if we aren't actively as a church going after abortion - and he says in the clip that doesn't mean preaching the gospel, it means more than preaching the gospel. So according to him, the church is failing, you as a Christian are failing, if you aren't actively involved in suppressing abortion. That is again a "God accepts me if..." statement other than "in Christ alone."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I would in a nuanced way say that most guys or gals that are saying things like this wouldn't use the word "except" but perhaps they would use the word "expect" - God expects this from you, God expects that you go after abortion in this way too. It's easy for a preacher on a screen or a tweet to say God wants us to actively go after XYZ to then I just want to scream in the comments section, "How much? How do I know that I've reached the right amount? How do I know that I've gone after your issue enough? Do I need to go march and protest? Do I need to read a book? Do I need to listen to this podcast? Do I need to befriend this kind of person? Do I need to be active in my city council for closing down this clinic?"  
  
What's enough? How do I know that I've reached the enoughness of your issue? That's when guys immediately begin to kind of walk back and say, "You have to be willing." Or "You've got to have it in your heart." Which is it? Do I have to be willing or do I actually have to do something? That's the problem. Justin, I think you mentioned this word: neonomism: adding new laws to the Christian faith. These laws are never enough, or we can never define them succinctly enough.  
  
Again, it's the idea of making the implications of the gospel the gospel itself. Most of these guys that I know who are saying things like this never tie them to your justification. What often happens is we open the back door into justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Then we let in all sorts of nonsense, of these if-then conditional statements.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To even narrow it down, we are dealing with the doctrine of sin here. Where do racism, abortion, and all the other issues come from? Is it a circumstantial issue where if we fix the circumstance, we fix the problem or is it a heart issue to where these come from the evilness of our heart? If we were to able to shut down every abortion clinic that was out there, and if we were to stop all cultural racism across the planet to a point where it doesn't exist anymore, would we have really fixed the problem? Because the problem is not in the action. What does Christ say the problem is?  
  
Justin Perdue: It's from the hearts of men. From the heart come all those evil things.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you tell me that preaching the gospel isn't the solution, you're going to suppress one issue of the heart where another one will pop up. The heart is so desperately wicked and evil that if you assume that you can deal with the suppression of sin and that it will solve the problem of the world, but you do it separate from the gospel and the advancement of the gospel, then you actually are losing. You're going to be fighting a losing battle.  
  
Justin Perdue: To Jimmy's observation a second ago, in spite of what everybody would say, if you really press people when they're heaping all of these requirements on folks, they would be very clear. I'm not saying that that you need to be doing these things in order to be justified in the eyes of God. I think it's right for us to press back and say that everything that they are saying, in their posture and tone, makes it very clear that all of this is a justification project. We are putting standards out there that that must be met, and if you don't meet them, then there is penance required in order for us to be in right standing in the eyes of one another; by implication, for us to even be in good favor with the Lord. The heart of the problem here is that these standards are being heaped upon people. As is always the case, when we heap standards upon people that the Scripture doesn't, nobody can ever define it and answer you how much is enough.  
  
Jimmy, you articulated that really well. Then we have to backpedal and say maybe it's just a heart posture where you're willing to be active or vocal in this way. It is a self-justification project in an attempt to be enough in the eyes of one another and we think even before God.  
  
What's sad is that what this ends up producing in the church is this kind of hierarchical structure where there are some of us who are better than other people. To your point, Jon, the answer and the remedy to all of this is just to continue to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, crucified for wretched sinners such as us. We all need to be reminded that basically we were all far worse off than we could ever imagine. It matters not what your stance is on a particular issue or how vocal or active you are in ending something; we are all in desperate need of a righteousness that we don't have, we are all in desperate need of atonement that we can never accomplish. What a wonderful message it is in the current cultural moment to look at people based upon the revelation of God and say absolution, forgiveness, and righteousness are yours by faith in Christ Jesus, apart from anything that you could ever do. In our culture right now, atonement is being demanded everywhere over every issue, but forgiveness and absolution are nowhere to be found. What we do every single Sunday is we get up there and offer all of those freely in Christ Jesus, at least us three pastors sitting around these microphones. I'm convinced that my people need to hear that on Sunday when they show up. They've been bombarded enough all week long with how they're failing everywhere and they're not doing enough. They need Christ on the Lord's Day.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's a big statement and I want to make sure people didn't miss what you said there, Justin. When you're saying the culture is requiring atonement for everything, what do you mean by that? Give me an example of what you're talking about.  
  
Justin Perdue: There are all kinds of things that the culture is telling us that we need to repent of because we're wrong and we're guilty and we need to make atonement - meaning we need to make it right; we need to make reparations for things and we need to undo wrongs committed.  
  
The message is if you do enough, if you make enough atonement, if you do enough penance, then you will find forgiveness and you will find absolution; you'll be absolved of your guilt. But then you do what you think you're supposed to do, or you say what you think you're supposed to say, and the goalpost keeps moving. You can't ever do enough so that there is no real forgiveness or absolution or righteousness to be found.  
  
I think that is just a great illustration of our human predicament and hence the gospel: you can’t ever do it. Therefore you need righteousness and forgiveness and absolution that are provided for you by another.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We even do this in our marriages. You did this to me and I'm going to hold this against you until you can fix it.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I teach World Religions at the school where I work. At the very first day of class, what I tell them is everybody is extremely religious. Everybody. This is Romans 1-3 and Acts 17, that everybody becomes a law to themselves. What you're saying, Justin, about the goalposts continuing to move that what we do is we demand people's blood.  
  
When we were at the 1517 Conference, David Zahl had a wonderful quote in his talk where he basically said that the world is obsessed with religion - just not the confession, forgiveness, and absolution kind. That is where we are. Even in light of the pandemic and racism, and now we have the Supreme Court issuing different decrees about abortion and things like that. We are taking this posture of "if we don't do this, then we must not believe". We are just heaping Law on people. We are heaping these conditional statements on people so much so that it's like American Christianity is hell bent on destroying people's assurance in Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Let me ask you guys this question, and this is the dangerous question, but which one will damn you more: the sin of self-righteousness or the sin of racism?  
  
It is just as wrong to be self-righteous in the eyes of God as it is to be racist. If you are a Christian, if you believe in Jesus Christ and you trust in him alone as your righteousness, you are a bad Christian. There are no such things as good Christians.  
  
In Hebrews 11:2, God commends the Old Testament saints at the end of their life. He commends them not for their faithfulness but for their faith - and that list of Old Testament was a debaucherous lot. The point of it is that when we start comparing what we love, we as believers do two things: one is we love to compare our sin. We love making sure that my pile isn't as bad as your pile. We love to compare our righteousness, making sure that my righteousness is more than your righteousness. That's all horizontal.  
  
What the gospel demands of you and forces you to do is to look vertical because the Law points you to Christ. As you look at that, you should be crushed. You should consider yourself always to be a bad Christian because what it will do is it will never allow you the justification of comparing yourself and being critical of another Christian; it won't allow you to do it.  
  
That doesn't mean we don't judge each other because obviously we have to for the sake of love and concern. There's church discipline. I'm not up here saying, "Judge not lest ye be judged." That's not what I'm saying. When it comes down to comparative righteousness or what I'm going to project you must do and say in order to be accepted by God, if it is not in Scripture, and as Paul says, if they're pointing you to the traditions or philosophy of men, you are not to allow that to captivate you.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It's interesting to note as of late where we stand in 2020\. Because of social media and the ways that we are all interconnected, there can't be an article released without everybody having their own say and thoughts about it. We are just slaves to the urgent and most recent trend and fad.  
  
If your church, preaching, and Christianity are constantly tied to the most recent headline, you are going to be exhausted by the end of the week. There is always going to be something else. There is always going to be the next thing that we should collectively hate and collectively fight against. Eventually, the list is so long that we frustrate people out of the church. We exhaust them out of the church because they're never doing enough.  
  
Now people are going to hear me, and all sorts of alarm bells are going to go off in their brain. They're going to ask, "Jimmy does that mean that we never talk about issues?" That's not at all what it means. But we have to keep the primacy of the gospel, the primacy of what Justin talked about, which is the mission of the church, that we are here on Sunday mornings, on the Lord's Day, and we are gathered to herald Christ to weary sinners and sufferers. Also, to take the long view of the Christian life that as different things come about in our culture, we do so in a tone of gentleness and quietness that we focus on our people. We focus on the things that are happening in our context, in our church, that we don't always have to have a say into what's happening in the broader culture. We focus on the different sins, struggles, and idols that are occurring in our church that we need to address, rather than becoming a place where we teach Christian faithfulness rests upon acting a certain way. There has to be a place where we are a forgiveness outpost. That is our job as a church.  
  
When people come here, what do I want them to walk away with? I want them to walk away with the truth that they're forgiven in Christ's name. That's what I want them to have.  
  
Justin Perdue: I don't want to be misunderstood either in the way that I define the mission of the church. We do talk about how we are to live and how we're to interact and how we're to even live broadly in society. We talk about that underneath the banner of loving our neighbor.  
  
We come, we gather, we behold Jesus Christ, we receive him in the Word, we receive him in the table, we sing and of him and we pray to the Father in his name, and we have our faith confirmed and sustained.  
  
Then we scatter to love one another because Christ gave himself up for us, and we scattered to love our neighbor as ourselves. So we absolutely are concerned with the good of our fellow man. Don't hear us say that we're not concerned for that stuff.  
  
Jimmy, you touched on the tendency in evangelicalism for there to always be the next big thing that we needed to do concerning ourselves. There is this hyperfocus on the interior of my life: how I need to be performing and that stuff I need to be doing. We talk about that at an individual level a lot.  
  
I think that there is this corporate reality of a pietistic culture where there's always more to be done. There's always the next big thing that we need to be focusing on. It's that proverbial hamster wheel that the church broadly is always on. The church broadly is always chasing after not just relevancy, but it's chasing after it kind of its own self-justification and righteousness project to demonstrate that we're right, we get it, we're doing enough, and we're active enough in transforming the culture.  
  
An important thing for us to say in this regular portion of the podcast is as Reformed guys, we hold what's historically been called a two-kingdom view of the world and the universe. There is the redemptive kingdom: our citizenship is in heaven. This redemptive kingdom that God is building through Christ. Then there is the common kingdom in which every human being lives and dwells and we're active and we do all kinds of things within it. It's great for us as citizens and members of the common kingdom to work for the good of our neighbor here. At the same time, we understand that the work of redemption and the work of, dare I say it, transformation is not ours to do. We are not, as David VanDrunen says in his wonderful book, _Living in God's Two Kingdoms_, it is not as though we are all little Adams running around, transforming the world and transforming the creation, returning it to its Edenic state - that is not what we are called to do, and we're not capable of doing it. There is great liberation in understanding that we are called to trust Christ and then love our neighbor as best as we are able by God's grace. Then we will trust God with the work of redemption and the work of restoration and the work of transforming the culture and the world into what is coming: the new heaven and the new earth.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Everybody's transformation project is good until sinners get involved.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you'll notice in the New Testament, multiple writers call the Christian to live peaceably with those around them. You never hear there to be a call to transform government, transform culture, to abolish culture, to stamp out houses, alcohol, and all the things that we've tried to do in the past; it says to care for those within the church who are hurting. Then we are to demonstrate love to those who are around us.  
  
Just to go back there, we always mention that the Christian life should be lived status forward. What's happening in this particular circumstance is we are working for acceptance instead of working from acceptance - meaning that I am accepted by Christ through faith alone, therefore I work. What I'm being told is I must do this work so that I can be accepted. What happens is that the work is changing all of the time. It depends on who has the loudest voice at the moment.  
  
I just want to read to you that the latter part of Colossians here because I think it summarizes what Justin and Jimmy were saying. It says here in verse 18, "Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in details about visions, puffed up without reason about his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with the growth that is from God."  
  
He is saying what you're holding on to, what has your attention is Christ. The head of the church is Christ. As you hold on to this, this is what causes the body to grow through the power of God. Paul is not saying all of these other issues in life aren't of any value - or if they are, we shouldn't be involved with them. This goes back to the two-kingdom view. But the primary purpose of the Christian life is to hold desperately on to Christ. The body of believers is to be pushing each other to do that. As we do that, we see our lives being transformed into the image of Christ. That is, when you go to church or the person who's involved in church, or I would even say a Christian, their primary purpose in life is to hold fast onto Jesus Christ.  
  
This is an illustration: when you show up to a grocery store and they have all these advertisements to sit and watch the game, get a massage, or shop for a new pair of shoes. What do you go to a grocery store for? It's called a grocery store because it's for groceries. Yet we have the church and it is supposed to be about Christ, yet you hear all of this advertisement coming to you saying that you need to be involved in everything else except for Christ, which is the opposite of Scripture.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: When I prepare my sermons weekend and week out, one of the things at the forefront of my brain is that my people, for the past six days, Monday through Saturday, have spent six days having shackles put on their feet and wrists in terms of the Law and their sin weighing down on them. It is my job, in a primary fashion, when I open up the Scriptures and herald Christ to them, to remind them and point them to the grace and mercy that we see in the gospel of Jesus Christ. What God has demanded of us in his Law is that the standard of good is perfection - then we are toast. What God has demanded of us in his Law freely by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone in the gospel.  
  
A lot of people want to get in our face about that. "If you only preach the gospel, if you only preach Christ, your people are going to be lulled to sleep. They're never going to understand the imperatives of the Christian life." Absolutely not. That's nonsense. That is complete and utter nonsense because as we marched through the Scriptures, do we preach those imperatives? Yes, but we do so under the cloud and the tent of God's grace being magnified in the gospel. My job is to free people every week, because what do freed people do best? They love and they serve. Freed people love and serve. Bondaged people - what do they do best? They hide and they don't love people because they're concerned about their justification. They're concerned about their sanctification. They're always looking at their navel. They're always wondering, "Am I good enough? Am I doing it well enough? Am I executing the Christian life right enough?" You're not. That's why on Sundays, we proclaim you're forgiven on account of Christ. If I can free my people, they will serve in love. I know it. I trust it because it's what God has promised.  
  
Justin Perdue: People who are chasing after their justification, their status, all the time are almost always only concerned with themselves. "I am concerned with me. I've got to do enough. I've got to demonstrate that I'm doing enough." Their gaze is firmly fixed upon themselves, not upon Christ and their neighbor. We are set free by Christ unto love and good works. That's the message that we're all heralding unless anybody ever gets confused.  
  
One thing that works me up though is in all of the churches across our land, we're in the United States of America, and I've seen stuff on social media in recent days, certainly in recent weeks, where these are clips of church services and gatherings of believers and all kinds of things are being talked about and celebrated and heralded, and you don't need Jesus Christ for a single one of them.  
  
How in the world have we gotten here where we're gathering as saints on the Lord's Day and we're talking about things that we do not need Jesus for. I would much rather concern myself as a pastor and as a Christian with the saints that gathered at Covenant Baptist Church. Let's concern ourselves with the things that uniquely we must have Christ for. This is his church that's called by his name; let's make this about him.  
  
Then as you said, Jimmy, underneath the banner of Christ and the gospel, we talk a lot about loving neighbor and how we can be good for not just our brothers and sisters in the church, but just good for our fellow man in general. That's the way that God works. People will often uphold examples of Christians who have done great things in the world and in society - and I want to applaud those and uphold those as well. We have members of our church who were involved in politics and the judicial system, in medicine, and all kinds of things; all of these are common grace, common kingdom pursuits that are worthwhile. Yet when we gather on the Lord's Day, we gather for Christ because we've been bombarded by our sin and by the Law all week, and even by the fallenness of the world. We need a haven where we, along with all the other sin-sick wretches, can lay at the foot of the cross and confess our sin and repent and trust Christ anew.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This comes back to a big word, your hamartiology, or your understanding of the doctrine of sin. If you understand that there is no fixing the human heart on this planet, what we're being told is to put our hope in a utopia, if we can fix all of these issues - racism, COVID-19, abortion, political divides - then the world will be better, the pressure is on you to perform and fix this. How many thousands of years of history have we observed, and no one has got it right yet? You would assume some culture would have figured it out by now. We're smart people. But the problem is that the problem is not in our actions - the problem lies within our heart.  
  
What we are saying is that Christians offer something that is otherworldly, that is outside of the world and outside of their circumstances and outside of their capacities; their hope is in Christ.  
  
This is going to lead us into our conversation in our members' podcast. I've had so many conversations about race and so many conversations about COVID-19\. We love to point out the problem: here's the problem and it's your fault. One question that I always ask is what is the solution? How do you fix it? We love pointing out the problems and the solutions vary, but I think there's a clear solution - we're going to dive into this a little bit more and be more pointed and open. I have felt you guys holding back a little bit.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Thank you for listening to this portion of the podcast. We're so grateful for your love and support.  
  
We are going to head over into our members' podcast now. If you want more information about that, you can head to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. Becoming a member entitles you to all sorts of awesome things. You can get different resources, have access to past podcasts, and you get to hang out with us just a little bit more - trust me, that is fun.  
  
We're going to head over into our members' podcast. Thank you for listening. We hope that this conversation was helpful and beneficial to you. We'll see you guys next week.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-youre-a-bad-christian-if-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-youre-a-bad-christian-if/)

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### MEMBERS: Obedience Is Not a Dirty Word (Transcript)

*Published: July 29, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-obedience-is-not-a-dirty-word-transcript*
*Tags: Obedience, Pietism, Sanctification*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-archive-favorites-obedience-is-not-a-dirty-word/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. Before we go any further, just want to say a thank you to all of you out there who support the ministry of Theocast. We are grateful for you. We couldn't do this without you. Thank you for joining in the reformation in locking arms with us to see these truths of Christ and rest in Christ spread as broadly as we can see them spread. We are continuing our conversation about obedience now. And our brother, our friend John Moffitt in his own words, says that he has a zinger to start us off with. John, go ahead and zing us, man.  
  
Jon Moffit: Well this is what's great about the member's podcast. It's, it's like the after show where we get to sit around with some, you know, something to drink and around the coffee table and, and uh, you know, kick our shoes off is what I like to say. Uh, so here's the Zinger. I wanted to get to this in the podcast, but, there's just so much good material it's, it's hard to pack it all in. So here are the Zinger guys, is God ever disappointed with you for your lack of obedience? Is God ever displeased with you?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Okay, so now you can't use different words there, John.  
  
Jon Moffit: Hmm, are they not, are the same thing?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Well, and here's, here's the thing. Disappointed words matter. Can we all just agree on that?  
  
Justin Perdue: Precision matters man. Precision matters.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right. Category confusion is the fundamental problem in the Christian life.  
  
Jon Moffit: Have you been made justified or have you been declared justified? Which one is it?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Michael Horton says that category confusion is the reason why so many Christians are miserable or something along those lines.  
  
Jon Moffit: I can think of some famous pastors who fall into category confusion.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Hey now, so the word disappointed again. I would argue that the word disappointed that falls under the legal scheme category. That I'm disappointed in you that you did this or you didn't do this where there is a so, so let me just bring in the example of, you know, fatherhood, right? Um, for those of you that are listening and God has not given you the gift of children, pray to those ends because having children helps you see the fatherly disposition of God in ways that you never thought imaginable. And so being a father, you know, there is, I'll just give you an example from the other day. So, I'm helping out a church plant in the twin cities, you know, while we are transitioning with our church plant here in Willmar. And so my wife did a very brave thing and she brought our children to church in Willmar to a reformed church outside of Willmar, I should say, on her own. And you know, she called me and said, church was really rough today and you're going to need to talk to our boys when you come home. And so when I came home, you know, I used this word, I used daddy is disappointed in your behavior and what it did was, man, it just crushed my kids. Like they were just, they kind of sat before me just sobbing and in that moment I kind of realize, okay, wait a minute, was there a better word choice? Like could, there have been a better word choice. And I think, you know, as we were talking about this podcast just on the phone earlier, perhaps the better word choice is not disappointed, but there's grieving from God. You know, there is a, there is a fatherly disposition of, man, I'm grieved. I'm grieved over your disobedience.  
  
Justin Perdue: No, that's right. I, I think, let's just talk about it in these terms. Is God happy?  
  
Jon Moffit: This is awesome.  
  
Justin Perdue: Is God happy when we sin? The answer to that is of course not.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: No.  
  
Justin Perdue: The question, does God want us to sin? The answer is of course not. Of course not. And so it is true. We can hold these things in appropriate tension that we are covered in the blood and the righteousness of Christ. God is entirely pleased with us in his son. That's absolutely true. That's the rock on which we stand and at the same time and at the same time, God is grieved when we sin because if for no other reason it is terrible for us. Jimmy, you touched on this reality.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: And our brother, and our brother.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's right. It's terrible for us and it's terrible for our brother. And so when I see my own children doing things that are sinful and wrong and I see the wreckage that that produces or I see the wreckage that sin has produced in their own lives, even though they're still small. My heart as a father is moved with compassion. It's, it's moved in one sense. To a place where I'm like, man, look at this. I don't want this for my child whom I love. And so I think we understand that our acceptance before God has never conditioned upon our performance. And at the same time, God as a good and loving father feels this way toward us when we sin and does not want us to sin and works in us by his Holy Spirit so that our lives will continually be transformed.  
  
Jon Moffit: Okay, so here's my pushback. I set you guys up. Here's my pushback. Zinger number two. That is to assume that you are actually aware of your disobedience and this is my pushback when Psalm 103:12 says he has removed our sin as far as the east is from the West so that it's seen no more. We live in a constant state of being clothed in the righteousness of Christ and there is an importance here. There's an important reality here because every man around the microphone this morning would agree that we actually don't know how disobedient we really are.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's absolutely true.  
  
Jon Moffit: We don't know the level and I don't disagree with anything you guys said, but it's important for the listener to hear that. I don't believe that there is an up and down disappointment with God, or there's an up and down grievance of you've lived well, he's not grieved. You have not lived well, he's grieved. Uh, and I will get to some passages specifically in Ephesians here it says grieve not the Holy Spirit. I'll explain what that is. Um, I even believe that when it says in Hebrews that God disciplines those whom he loves, that that discipline was categorized in love. He does not say he disciplines those. He's disappointed and he does not say he disciplines those with whom he's grieved. He understands that our actions are being a hindrance to the glory of God, to the work of God, and to ourselves and others around us. Therefore, he gently and lovingly corrects us. But I think it's important to understand that God does not relate to us and it's hard for us to see this. God does not relate to us as we relate to our children. It's a one-to-one correlation that is very, very complicated, and dangerous to make. In that God only is pleased with us because of who we are in Christ, which is a difference between child and son relationship. Jimmy, go ahead.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: To be the word Smith here, the term disappointed I think implies surprise that God is surprised. Like, wow, I'm just, I'm surprised that you would have after all I've done for you, that you would do that, that you would say that you would think that, that you would disobey in that matter where there is one where the word grieve I think carries with it this compassionate tone where God, partly God grieves over the sickness of his child. He grieves that sin has perhaps won the day that sin has caused us to be so sick. Where disappointment implies that God is, you know, he's taken off guard by our sin. And so I think we just need to be careful. And even as pastors, you know, to the pastor listening that how we address people in sin, how we talk to people in sin that to point people to this angry, judgmental God is not going to pull them out of sin. It's just not. It's going to, it's going to perhaps cause them to sin different ways because they're going to be so terrified of this judge up in heaven. Now granted there is space and there is room, you know, let the hearer understand there is space and there is room to warn people, right? We do see this in the new testament that there are definite warnings, right? Hebrew 6, 1 Corinthians 10 there are definite warnings of the writers of like, Hey, don't run headlong into sin. Right? But at the same time, that is so buttressed by the grace of God in Christ. We want to hold those things in a little bit of balance.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's right. And I think just a brief word here in interjection on warning. As I've surveyed the New Testament, and I speak this way with our church all the time, there is absolutely, as you've alluded to Jimmy, harsh language in the new testament at points, but I would say that that harsh language is reserved for one of maybe four scenarios. One is just unrepentant sin, like I'm sinning and I don't care. Okay? Two is kind of a variety of that where I'm doing something that God says is sin, but I'm not going to call it sin. Okay, well that's fair. Warning time for warning and hearts language. Third, you can think of a category like 1 Corinthians 5 where there's a man who's doing something and sleeping with his stepmother that even pagans know is wrong, and the church rather than being grieved by that is arrogant. So you're celebrating sin. All right, so that's three. And then fourth would be false teaching. So those are the categories to me that I see in the new testament where that kind of harsh language of warning is used when we're talking about the saints who are still struggling under the weight of their own corruption and are battling against their own sin. You know, when their inner man is delighting in the law of God, but yet they still find themselves doing things they don't want to do and they're not doing the things they want to do. The language and the tone and the tenor of the New Testament and of the apostles is one of compassion. It's one of love. It's one of assurance and peace, like pointing people to Christ, continue to trust Christ as God does his transforming work in you. And that's the kind of tone that we're after here at Theocast. We're just trying to take our cue from the scripture in pointing people to Jesus. The rest, the peace, the joy that they have, you know, as they're pursuing obedience.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's helpful.  
  
Jon Moffit: I think to add to that, Justin, is, I agree with everything that Jimmy and Justin have just said, but I think it is very important to understand the posture of our father and the posture of our father is very much the posture of the prodigal son's father in that there is this constant welcoming after sin after headlong in sin. There is a constant welcoming in because I do not believe our performance adds or takes away from our position. Our position is secured by Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think we all agree in that.  
  
Jon Moffit: It is so dangerous, and we can often feel that our performance is going to affect our position and it cannot do that. Our position is that the father has adopted us, clothed us with the righteousness of Jesus Christ and has claimed us to be his own. And Jesus says, those who the father holds in his hand, no one can get out. And that there is, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen.  
  
Jon Moffit: The passage I alluded to in Ephesians, when it says, grieve not the Holy Spirit that is in your, among you. It's a really important that's used often. I know some of you are probably sitting there going, well, I don't know John. You say you can't grieve. In that context, he is talking to Christians, believers who are fighting. They're being ugly and nasty. They're not being careful with their words. They're not being careful with their money towards each other and he, he gives this long list of attitudes and at the end of that list he is saying, if you reject what I'm giving you, that spirit of bond and unity that he mentioned at the beginning of chapter 4, he says, that's what ends up you grieving that unity and bond. Don't grieve that. Don't make it so that there is a separation that's there. What he is not saying is that your disobedience, be careful bud, because you don't want to put yourself in a position where God is unhappy with you. That's impossible. God can never be unhappy with you because he doesn't look at your own righteousness, but the way you treat your brothers and sisters, you can absolutely remove that bond and that unity that's supposed to be there. So you can grieve your brothers. Absolutely. And your sisters. And I think that's big. We have to always be careful about this constant fear of, well, I don't want to grieve the Holy Spirit. Uh, because I was angry this morning or I was upset or I have this besetting sin. That's the danger I think of that balance that we're trying to find.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I can't remember where I read this and so perhaps one of the listeners can remind me. I think it's in John Owens writing where he talks about if God were to show you the full wickedness of your own heart, you would be so crippled, you would be so disparate. And we, we mentioned this earlier where, you know, we talked about like, you know, kind of measuring obedience, measuring sin, measuring where we've gone wrong and where, you know, where we've gone, right. But if God were to show you how disobedient you actually were on a daily basis, you would be so grieved and crippled to the point where you just wouldn't want to get out of bed. And so even when, even when we are confronted with our disobedience, even when we view that, not as this, God's saying, how dare you, I'm so disappointed. We view that as a grace.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's right.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That God would reveal to us either through the spirit or through our brother, that God would say, Hey, I'm, I'm seeking to get your attention here.  
  
Justin Perdue: You brought up John Owen. Another thing that Owen perhaps famously said in his work, communion with the Triune God, he says that, this is a paraphrase, that the greatest, the greatest sort of grievance that we could ever lob against the father, uh, that we could ever levy against the father is to doubt his love for us. And so I think in this whole conversation, John, I appreciate the Prodigal son reference because I think that that parable is so helpful in understanding the father's posture towards us as his children because I think there is a temptation always to think it's like, oh yeah, well he was happy, you know, at that moment of justification to kind of run out and accept us and kind of bring us in. But now that we're a part of the fold, like his posture and his demeanor towards me has changed and that we have to be careful that we don't go that direction. And so that I want to be really clear. Like in all the things that I've said about God kind of looking at, you know, sin and the wreckage that it's produced in us, by no means do I think that that means that his posture and his demeanor towards us changes at all. It's just simply out of his love and his care and his concern for us know he wants what is good for us and he works sovereignly by his spirit to bring that about. That's the wonderful news for all of us who are in Christ.  
  
Jon Moffit: Paul even gives this rebuke in Romans 2:4\. He says, or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness is meant to lead you to repentance, right? So there's this idea again of the father who is kind and forbearance and he's patient, and as we look at that, we turned from disobedience, repenting towards obedience. It is not an angry father. You better obey turning repentance because I'm afraid it is love. We are drawn into obedience, we are drawn into pursuing holiness, pursuing godliness, pursuing a unity because of the kindness of our father, which is, I'll be honest, I still struggle if we're all honest around the microphone. We all there always that fear of like, well, maybe I should've done this. I should have done that and you and you and I need the gospel every Sunday to be read over to me. I need the scriptures read over to me. Uh, this, this phrase, Lord, confront us with your law and comfort us with thy Gospel. I live by that motto because it reminds me of the posture of a loving father who says, John, come back to me. You straight away. Come back, come back. Over here is where rest is found.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: So this is good. This is my, this is my hot take and then I'll just be done. Here's my hot take. The hard work of the Christian life is not obedience. The hard work of the Christian life is understanding your forgiveness in Christ. I'm done. Mic drop. I'm done.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm with you. We say this all the time. The fundamental battle, the Christian life is that fight for faith. It's the, it's the battle to trust and rest. So, all right, my question is, obviously we, we're, we're getting, we're getting to the end here of the member's time. We haven't even addressed Jimmy's shot across the bell about quiet time.  
  
Jon Moffit: Oh, whoops.  
  
Justin Perdue: So, I guess, I guess we just go ahead and tell people that we're sorry.  
  
Jon Moffit: Hey, you know what? There's no time frame. You guys, you guys got time?  
  
Justin Perdue: So, alright Jimmy, you kind of threw that out there about quiet times. Like when talking about how does God produce obedience in us and, and kind of how do we live the Christian life? And I made the observation that I just find it borderline comical within the people that are most fired up about personal devotions and are most fired up about accountability and all these kinds of things in the Christian life are often the people that miss service on the regular and, and don't show up to church on Sunday. It just kind of blows the mind and it demonstrates that in, in our church context, we have been just pounded with what you do in private matters most and that's where the real transformation takes place. And then what happens in the corporate, you know, life of the church is almost secondary. Whereas what we're trying to do is say, hey, no look like the realities in the new testament are all corporate. God works by his spirit through the church to transform and whatever happens in your personal devotional life, the corporate reality fuels that and the corporate reality is primary. So you guys are both wigging out to jump in on this conversation.  
  
Jon Moffit: I have a quick comment, Jimmy, and I'll throw it to you. When I have someone who is hyper on personal devotions, which we'll explain, we're not anti devotions or bible reading, I hate the word devotions.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Yeah, read your bible it's a gift.  
  
Jon Moffit: Exactly. I always tell them, hey listen, I need you to do me a favor. Whatever your Bible reading plan is, I needed you to add to or pause and read only the last four chapters. Sorry, chapters 4 and on in Ephesians. Just spend your time there and I need you to meditate on everything that Paul says there and then come back to me and we'll talk. Because they are confronted with the reality that their Christian life is not an individual pursuit on their own personal bible reading time. Go ahead, Jimmy.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I love, let's just, let's just be real. The personal devotion time is the evangelical sacrament.  
  
Jon Moffit: Come on.  
  
Justin Perdue: Oh yeah. It's the first one.  
  
New Speaker: It is solely where, where God comes to meet you and, and, and again, we cannot overemphasize this enough. Read Your Bible. It's a gift. It's been printed in readable language like read it. We are not saying that it's wrong. However, when your personal devotion time becomes the barometer of your Christian life and the barometer of your obedient Christian life, what's going to happen, I guarantee you is you are going to stand on the high horse and look down because you're going to find the person and that man, this is where it just gets me so worked up. Right. You know, because we have young children, my, my wife is a, is a young mother. We have a lot of young mothers in our church that just to be honest, man they, they are tired and weary and overrun with children hanging on them like and when you want to make this personal devotion time, the barometer of the Christian life. Man, I just want to come out in defense of the weary mom.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen, bro.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: You know what, like God and man, I'm just, I'm getting worked up. I'm going to need someone else to step in.  
  
Jon Moffit: Let me step in here. Here's, let me, let me, let me put it this way. To the listener, I think it's, it's helpful to understand sometimes when Theocast gets on the air, people hear either or it's either all in or all out and that is a danger, what I would call fundamentalism in fundamentalism, either all in or you're all out, you see it. And that's how Christianity works. And I am a personality where I'm either all in or all out and I've had to break this out of my own personality and spiritual personality. Listen, we are talking about levels of priority. We are talking about more, more specifically levels of promise. The spirit has promised to come to us, feed, care for and grow us in the means of grace. Those means historically and biblically are the public preaching of God's word through God's people, ordained and gifted by the spirit, the pastors and elders and the word through baptism and the table. God has promised to grow and feed his people there. All right, so the primary promise that we are speaking of is that now if you want to add to that and should, you can add to that spiritual books, you can add to that spiritual song and you can add to that your own personal time in the word. But I will tell you and all well prayer actually is a primary means. I Apologize, I should have left that in there. Uh, but if you, if you, what happens is, uh, all we're pointing out is primary means word in sacrament. And what should supplement that and encourage us is our involvement in spiritual things such as reading the Bible. What has happened is this, we, you guys can't see what I'm doing, my hands. It's an inversion where we put Bible reading as the primary means of our spiritual growth. And if you're not reading your Bible every single day, then you will not be growing spiritually. And our pushback on that is you cannot make that argument. And I will, I'll, I'll throw it back to you, Justin here in one second. People say, well, what about hiding thy word in my heart? And I will say to you, he does not mean you. Cause that's an old testament reference you in the closet with your Bible. That does not mean hiding thy word. It means to take the truth that's been read over them. Cause the law would be read to them and implanted as if you were hiding a child that you love and you're going to protect it. Protect that truth from anything, taking it away from you. So it is the word preach that we are protecting. Not necessarily our personal bible reading time. I'm done  
  
Justin Perdue: So I've got so many things going around in my head here. I'm going to try to be very brief and just kind of fire a few shots. So Jimmy, when you were talking about moms being weary, I'm married to a woman who is caring for four very young children and is the wife of a pastor.  
  
Jon Moffit: And the wife of Justin is just difficult in general.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Yeah, he's a diva.  
  
Justin Perdue: I can recall so many conversations where my wife is looking at me through tears. I don't even know how I'm going to take a shower tomorrow. You know? And it's, and it's like, that's real life man. And so then to come in and just kind of pile it on the weary saint, whoever it is, you know, who is just literally just struggling to try to keep their heads above water, you know, and say, oh, well, you know, what about, what about your Bible reading is just, it lacks compassion and awareness and all kinds of things. Just talking about quiet times versus the ordinary means quiet times versus the corporate reality. I agree, could not agree more than in the New Testament. God promises to uniquely bless, you know, preaching and sacrament and the church gathered in a way that he has not promised to bless your quiet time. The bottom line, and so my, my sort of beef with this is that the way that so many people think about it, it's like, well my family, they'll just talk about the way we do it. In my family, we've got it completely backwards because we prioritize the local church assembly, the corporate gathering on Sunday. That is the most important thing that happens in our week. And so even my wife and I, with everything we've got going on, it's like that is the one thing that's not negotiable. We're doing it. Well, I guess if evangelicalism had a say, it's like, well I guess what you need to do is forget the corporate gathering. It just makes sure that on Sunday just stay home and read your Bible because that's what really matters and it's just absolute craziness. I could rant for a long time, but rant's over. John, you want to say something?  
  
Jon Moffit: Well, I want to go back to,  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Oh, I'm going to, I'm stepping in.  
  
Jon Moffit: Go on brother. I thought you thought you were done. Then bring it in.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Again to go back to the obedience issue cause that's what, that's honestly what we're talking about. Um, look, if you're a pro bible reader, if you are a pro devotional life liver and you are not a member of a church...  
  
Justin Perdue: Come on.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There is a discrepancy there that you need to really think about. If you are, if you are a pro bible reader, if, if your Christian life is just marked by excellency and devotion to reading the Bible and praying on an individual level daily and yet you are not under the care and shepherding of a local church body. I'm just saying there's something off  
  
Jon Moffit: And the church doesn't have to be perfect. I'm going to add to this, Jimmy, I'm going to go back to Ephesians 4 here real quick. And because what people say is, well, aren't we supposed to verify? Aren't we supposed to be like the Bereans and listen, let me just read you the Apostle Paul. In a world where people did not, in a world where people did not have their own bibles, okay, they, it was a, there was a community where they would have to go to the synagogues. So everybody knows the history. Let me just read you. Ephesians chapter 4 Paul gets done and he says, and he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up the body of Christ, until we all attain the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the son of God to mature manhood to the measures of the statues of the fullness of Christ so that we are no longer children. Okay? I can keep going. He just goes on and on and on and on, on. What did he give? He never mentioned Personal Bible reading. He said gifted shepherds, gifted teachers are given. So these are men we identify that have the gift of the spirit who are then going to dedicate their lives to the ministry of the word so that they can prepare the word in such a way that the church, what does Jesus say to Peter? Feed my sheep, right? Feed my sheep. So the pastors, this is why you do not lay hands on an elder quickly because you're about to give him a strong responsibility. This is why James says not many of you should be teachers because the responsibility is so weighty. It's so heavy.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's right. So just sort of parting shots here before we land the plane. If Personal Bible reading is the primary means of obedience and sanctification in the Christian life, I don't know what we can say for saints for about 1600 years because nobody had a bible to read. The word that they experienced in terms of the ministry, the word, it was all in the corporate setting and it was when the word of God was read over them. Second observation, Jimmy, to agree with you on that. Like if you're a pro devotional life liver but you're not a member of a local church, like you need to rethink it. I'll go a step further at the risk of offending everyone and say I have zero hope. I have zero hope biblically that anybody will be in heaven apart from being in the church. And I'm not saying that from a Roman Catholic perspective. I'm just saying that God's plan for his people is that we live life in the corporate community of the church, full stop and there are, there is not this category in the new testament of you kind of living the Christian life by yourself. It will not work. And then finally, last observation. I would say to the guy or the girl out there who so prioritizes personal bible reading and devotions that they are neglecting other primary responsibilities in their lives. You also need to rethink some stuff. So if your family, for example, is suffering, if you have this sort of super pious posture, my wife and kids are going to need to figure it out cause I got to sit down and read my Bible, you know, that is, that is absolutely ridiculous. And Paul says, first Timothy five eight, if you neglect your family, you're worse than an unbeliever. So this is where we've got a, we've got a hold these things together and stop kind of with this pious nonsense that is so often just spewed every place. John.  
  
Jon Moffit: I had two thoughts and I know Justin; you'll agree with this. What Justin is not saying is that if someone liked the apostle Paul who ended up dying in prison, he, he wasn't necessarily a part of the corporate reality.  
  
Justin Perdue: God gives grace.  
  
Jon Moffit: Exactly. It's the person who's rejecting the reality of the church. And the second thing I would say is, you know, people will ask me, do you, do you have your children do personal Bible reading? And I do devotionals with my kids. I do moments where we talk about the gospel. I will tell you that I'm not, I'm not consistent. We have it every Monday or we have it every night. Um, but I, we do spend time around the dinner table and there's a corporate wide, I should say there's a family time. But where I positioned my children is that it's like the night before thanksgiving, every, every Saturday, hey, go to bed on time and don't you know, you're not going to be eating sugar before you go to bed or, you know, the idea of it is, I want them to wake up and understand that the, that the day we sit down with Jesus is, is more important than anything else we do throughout the rest of the week. And we're not going to let anything get in the way. We will maybe miss one Sunday a year because we're traveling for a vacation on that one Sunday. But it's not legalistic. I just want my children to go, wow. Receiving from Christ is how I live. It's one of those means by which I need to survive.  
  
Justin Perdue: Well, you're just illustrating the fact, John, that that here at Theocast, we really do care about sanctification. We care about obedience. We care about what's good for us, you know, as individual men, as families, and we care about what's good for our audience. Well, friends, it's clear that we don't care about these things at all given that this members' podcast has gone. I don't even know. This might be the longest members' podcast in history. I'm not sure. Who knows. So we're, we're coming out of the gates hot. But again, we thank you so much for listening. We thank you for being total access members and partnering with us here at Theocast. We are excited about the future and we hope that you are too. We will talk with you again next time.  
  
New Speaker: We'd like to thank you for your generous support through your membership at Theocast. You can contact us with questions, feedback, or encouragement at theocas.org thank you.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/archive-favorites-obedience-is-not-a-dirty-word-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/archive-favorites-obedience-is-not-a-dirty-word/)

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### Obedience Is Not a Dirty Word (Transcript)

*Published: July 29, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/obedience-is-not-a-dirty-word-transcript*
*Tags: Obedience, Pietism, Sanctification*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/archive-favorites-obedience-is-not-a-dirty-word/)**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we are talking about obedience. Obedience is actually not a dirty word, though we know that for many of you, your experience with obedience has been hard. You have often been scolded or shamed or motivated by fear. You've often had your assurance eroded in order to motivate you towards obedience and holiness in the Christian life. But what we're going to do today is from the Bible and from the perspective of the reformed confessions point people to the reality that assurance and rest and peace in the Lord Jesus Christ actually motivates and propels us forward in pursuing obedience in the Christian life. And then in the Members podcast, we didn't intend for this to happen, but we were really getting ramped up at the end of the regular podcast, the Members podcast is both lengthy and very spirited and we think quite good. And so if you're not already a total access member, you're going to want to go over to Theocast.org and get on a 14-day free trial so that you can listen to the Members podcast on obedience. Stay tuned.  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ, conversations about the Christian life from a reformed perspective. Our hosts today are Jon Moffitt, Pastor of Community Bible Church in Springhill, Tennessee. Jimmy Buehler, Pastor of Christ Community Church in Willmar, Minnesota. And I am Justin Purdue, Pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina. Jimmy, you've got the cultural update today, my man. What's going on in your world?  
  
Justin Perdue: So Jon, what are we talking about today?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Speaking of lists and obedience and legalism, we are talking about obedience in the Christian life. And many of you who are listening to the podcast, you have either just joined us, this might be episode number one or you've been listening for a long time. One of the accusations we get here at Theocast over the years is that we're antinomian. And if you don't know what that word means is we're anti-law. We think there's no place for obedience. There's no place for law in the Christian life, and so we wanted to bring some clarity to what is, I think, an abuse of obedience. And then what we would say is joy, delight in obedience. So not dread but delight. That's really what this conversation is going to be about, is our experience and what we've seen within evangelicalism within, I would say, conservative evangelicalism and this draw towards fear and guilting people into obeying God and how we believe that the reformed confessions and scripture actually leads the believer to the joy and the delight and rest actually in obeying God. So how there's actually a huge difference between the two. So that's where we're at guys, who's going to bring us in?  
  
Justin Perdue: Happy to jump in on this one. So in many of the contexts that exist in the evangelical world that are pietistic, I think we can say that, we want to be really clear about what we're talking about here. In those contexts, Jesus is preached. We're not saying that Christ isn't preached in those contexts. The Holy Spirit is even seen to be central in obedience and sanctification. So we're not saying that the role of the Holy Spirit is somehow downplayed or minimized, but there is practically no outworking of that preaching of Christ and of that seeing the Holy Spirit as central to obedience and sanctification. Because, practically speaking, when you sit in most evangelical context these days, you're pounded with law. Just absolutely beaten to death with law. And assurance is eroded as a means of getting people to take obedience seriously. So it's like, Hey, let me unsettle, let me unsettle everybody in the pew in order to motivate people towards holiness. And as you said already, Jon, we're going to scold people towards obedience. That's one of the issues, the problems that we're pointing out with our current evangelical moment.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I was joking with you guys before the podcast started about a song I grew up singing and the lyrics go, 'obedience is the very best way to know that you believe', which is attaching a child's assurance to their obedience. So how well they obey is the level of their assurance.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think that that's dead on for the average person sitting in the pew. I think this is most likely true that the law is used as a means by which to motivate. Where it's do this, I wouldn't even say that the emphasis for the posture is, do this and live, it's, do this or die. Obey or die and that can just be so, so terrifying. And specifically to the person who's sensitive in conscience, where perhaps, I just think of Luther, if you're familiar with Luther's origins and his beginnings and, I mean the brothers spent upwards of eight hours in confession because he never felt like he measured up. And I remember listening to that story and just identifying with that so much because there's this fear that my life of obedience or my life of disobedience is the measure by which I relate to God.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think one of the things that we're pointing out here is the inconsistency that exists in the evangelical world. And in particular, there are many guys, many people who rejoice in what we would call the Doctrines of Grace. They understand themselves even to be Calvinistic and will, on the one hand, herald, the glorious truths of the unconditional grace and love of God towards his people. But then, it's interesting, there's a great contradiction in the posture and in the tone of preaching and of teaching and of life in the church because then we herald this unconditional love and grace of God toward the elect on the one hand, but then everything in terms of its practical outworking becomes exacting. It becomes threatening even in tone. And that's one of the things that we're trying to point out here that we want to talk about today in this podcast, Biblical motivations for obedience, and that's where this conversation will be headed here in just a moment.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And the tone is, it's as Justin was just saying, it is subtle. You will hear the Gospel and you will hear messages that are invigorating. They are, they are gripping. They bring you close into the cross. They love the cross. But as we pointed out a couple of weeks ago in, I think it was, I can't remember the exact episode, but it might have been the Dark Side of Christianity, where there is this fear of a laxity. There's a fear of laziness. There's a fear that Christians will not take God serious and instead of going at the root issue of that, which tends to be, I think, not seeing the glory of God, not seeing Christ clearly not participating in the sacraments, rightly. We counteract that and we use fear tactics. So instead of allowing your child to feel safe in your home and they feel loved and they feel drawn into your love, you're basically telling your children that they're going to live in a context of fear and doubt. And if you do not perform at a certain level, then there is pending punishment coming your way.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right. Would you guys say that this is perhaps, maybe a byproduct, that that kind of tone and tenor of preaching and teaching would, part of me wonders is this a byproduct of a kind of rugged individualization of the Christian life? Where we've really divorced the Christian life from the context of the body, the context of the church at large. And I guess what I'm trying to get at is, we use this word obedience and I think a lot of it is so nebulous, because if I hear obedience, my specific context and individual Christian life, I'm going to know the things that I'm disobedient in perhaps on a daily basis, which could be different than Justin's, which could be different than Jon's, which could be different than Billy or whoever, insert yourself or insert a different name, but I think one of the things we see in the New Testament, specifically the Epistles, is that Paul and the different writers, they were able to address the various areas that the body was being disobedient in to one another. What do you guys think about that?  
  
Jon Moffitt: No, I think it's what I call the only child syndrome. It's just me and God. And we talk about it, we use this language, my personal relationship with Jesus Christ, which is not a biblical term, by the way. And I don't mean those exact words, but the concept of it's just me and Jesus and we walk in the garden alone and it's just, I'm trying to make sure that he's happy with me and I'm happy with it. It's a horrible understanding of scripture and I think it's right, Jimmy, when you have a highly individualized focused view of your own Christian life, that it does very much become this moment where you are analyzing every area of your life and you're not analyzing within the context of the church. And Yeah, I think a lot of sermons even are geared towards that.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think that we have to acknowledge the impact of just movements through history in the church as well. So you can't have this conversation about even the individualization of the Christian life. You certainly can't have the conversation about obedience and the transformation of life in our current context without acknowledging things like, revivalism and just this emphasis that took place in the history of the church on moral transformation where the Christian life became essentially... Like the understanding is the Christian life is about the moral transformation of the individual. And so all of these movements through history have contributed to this current moment. And I think absolutely you're talking about a context in the west in America, where we are rugged individualists anyway, you take with it this kind of idea of moral transformation and you think about revivalism and its impacts as well in this kind of decision moment where people are walking aisles and praying prayers and committing their lives to Christ. And yet we end up talking about obedience only in this context of the individual, not in the body of the church. Which again, I couldn't agree more Jimmy is the context of the New Testament.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think we've done a pretty good job over the last few episodes. If you've not listened to the last, I would say four episodes that Theocast has produced, including our introduction, we've tried to expose what we call pietism, emphasizing our own faithfulness the internal of the Christian life. And today, really what we want to turn this conversation towards is a positive approach towards obedience. In other words, how do you see obedience in a way that brings delight, where you're excited about pleasing God and you're not doing it out of fear because you haven't done it at a certain level. And so this is probably a different context for some. Some would even say, obedience is a dirty word. If they've experienced grace and they love grace, they would say obedience is a dirty word. And, the should and ams, are Anti-Gospel in a way, I guess.  
  
Justin Perdue: We so often in evangelicalism, obedience comes across like a trip to the DMV. It's like the last thing in the world that I would want to concern myself with or do because whenever obedience has been talked about or preached or considered, it's always with this kind of threatening, exacting tone and it sounds miserable. Whereas in scripture, obedience is presented as a joyful thing, and as you've already used the word Jon, Delight. And so I think it would be good for us to turn the conversation in that direction and help people see biblically and even from the confessions, what are the motivations for obedience that turn it into something that is good and something that is joyful, something that's restful.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We are excited to announce that we have a new free eBook available at our website called Faith Versus Faithfulness, A Primer on Rest. And we the hosts put this together to explain the difference between emphasizing one's faith in Christ versus emphasizing one's faithfulness to Christ and how one leads to rest and how the other often to a lack of assurance. And you can get this at Theocasts.org/primer and if you've been encouraged, what you've been hearing at Theocast, we'd ask you to help partner with us. You can do that by joining our total access membership. That's our monthly membership that gives you access to all of our material that we've produced over the last four years or simply by donating to our ministry. You can do that by going to our website, Theocast.org. We hope that you enjoy the rest of the conversation.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Let me ask you guys this question. It may seem like a trick question, but it's not, it's a grounder and at Theocast we have rules, you don't throw grounders but you know, you guys are new.  
  
Justin Perdue: As long as it doesn't take a nasty, hop.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So does God need your obedience?  
  
Justin Perdue: No  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's a weird question.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That is, does God need your obedience, Jimmy? Yes or no?  
  
Justin Perdue: I've already said no.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah, I know, why not?  
  
Justin Perdue: I mean, first of all, I think the witness of the scripture is that we are the ones in need of what only God can provide. God is not in need of anything that we would bring to him. So this matters for a whole host of things, including how we think about obedience for the corporate gathering or a number of a number of things. And so our obedience does matter, our lives will be transformed. We're going to get here in a minute. We have been made for good works in Christ Jesus. I mean God has prepared good works for us to walk in. So those things are going to happen. God is honored in that. But honestly, those good works in that obedience matters more for my neighbor in life here on earth. Then it does even for me.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You stole my thunder, man. You can't steal my thunder.  
  
Justin Perdue: I could say more. I could say more. Go ahead, fellas.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Well, what I was going to say is, I love the line, what God requires in his law, he gives in his Gospel. And when we think about obedience, does God require my obedience? Well no, but you know, I think as Justin said, what the scriptures attest to, and I think even what the...  
  
Jon Moffitt: Not require, not require is a wrong word, need, does God need, right?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Excuse me. Need, but what the scriptures attest to, and even what the confessions, the reformed confessions speak of, is that God produces obedience in his children. Right? Let me just read this. This is the 1689 London Baptist Confession, Chapter 16 Paragraph 3 where they write this, their ability to do good works, speaking of regenerate Christians, their ability to do good works does not arise at all from themselves, but entirely from the spirit of Christ. And as you think about, again, pushing against this rugged individualism, I think what Justin pointed out so well is that these good works do not exist in a vacuum. If I think about my life and think about the good works that God produces in and through me, it's not just so I can feel good in my prayer closet, but rather the good works that God produces in me benefit my wife, benefit my children, benefit my church, benefit my neighbor. That there is a real, horizontal value to these good works that God produces. They don't exist just between me and God. But these good works really do benefit people.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Here's a second question for you. When we think about again the individualization of the Christian faith, where it's me and God, we tend to read scripture in this way, so go read Ephesians, Colossians go read Corinthians and the instructions that are given there. It's as if God is speaking directly to us for the application of our own personal life and we completely remove the context that Paul is writing to a church, for the context of a church, to be applied and obeyed in the church. So here's my question, what command has been given or what sin can you commit that doesn't directly affect? Is there a sin that you can commit that does not affect another human being in your life? It's only an offense against God. Can you think of a sin?  
  
Justin Perdue: So my answer again here is no. I think that quickly people want to immediately object and say, well what about these sins that I commit on my own without anybody else knowing about it? Clearly that's not affecting my neighbor. I would just say that's a very short-sighted and naive perspective because a life lived indulging in the desires of the flesh or whatever is going to inevitably start impacting your neighbor, whether that's your spouse, your kids, your friends, other members of the church, your coworkers. That is going to manifest itself and it's going to start cutting people to pieces in ways that you can't foresee, in ways that you don't even realize right then in that moment when you're committing that supposedly private sin.  
  
Jon Moffitt: So if you go and read, just as an example, go take and read the latter half of the book of Ephesians, starting in chapter 4\. All the first three chapters are the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. Chapters four on Paul gives a lot of instructions. But what's interesting about the instructions is that they're not individualized. They're all dealing with a corporate reality in that if these truths if this is true about Jesus, this is what it should look like. And he gives some pretty forceful commands and forceful instructions to the believer to be kind and gracious and patient, to be sacrificial, to consider how to build one another up in love and good works. He never equates that to the believer's assurance, he never equates that to the believers standing. It's always what I would say, the reflection of the Gospel, if this is true, this is how it's applied and it is for the benefit. Because he says when the body functions properly, what does he say? It builds itself up in love. So obedience, rightly understood, is that God doesn't need our obedience then who needs our obedience? As Justin said earlier, our brothers and sisters do because that's how we maintain unity. Obedience is the form of unity because it draws, I mean we're all sinful people. We have to obey these commands, otherwise, it's just going to be highly dysfunctional.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's right. Well, I think of Ephesians 2:1-10, I mean that is a passage that I think everyone loves to quote. It's one of the most clear Gospel, God has done this for you in Christ passages in the whole scripture. And then we get to verse 10, that we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works. And a lot of times there can be almost a, we get to that, and either we do this, well, how does this fit with the rest of that passage? Or we just hang on that and say, oh, well this is where we need to live. Where when you look at the passage as a whole, if you just want to isolate those 10 verses, 1 - 4 talks about our dead state before God. That we are spiritually dead apart from Christ. And then there's that glorious shift where Paul writes, but God being rich in mercy, he then moves us to this reality that God has done this great spiritual saving work in our lives apart from us. We were dead in sin, not just face down in the water, but at the bottom of the ocean, dead in sin. And God has saved us. And so when you think about this, this idea that we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, how can you move from this glorious presentation of what the Gospel says about us, that we were dead, but then God made us alive and then all of a sudden get to this obedience. And it's almost like there's this mental shift where we can falsely believe. Verse 10 is like God saying, now it's your turn, your turn. I did my thing, now it's your turn. "Prove that I've done this." You even think about this in Galatians, you who began in the spirit, are you now going to be perfected by the flesh? No, no. Again, as the confession speaks, God produces these works, this obedience within us.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think part of the issue here in our human nature, we've alluded to this in other podcasts and I'm sure we'll continue to talk about it. The legal spirit is hardwired into our DNA. And so for us, naturally from a human level, we see two primary motivators for obedience. One of them is merit. We're going to earn something, we're going to be rewarded with something. The second is escape of punishment. So for most people, as they think about this obedience question and you tell me that, okay, in Christ Jesus, everything has been accomplished that's necessary for my salvation. He's provided me with all the righteousness that I will ever need and I am safe. You have now removed the possibility of merit and you have now removed the possibility of punishment. So sometimes people look around and say, all right, well why obey now? Help me understand why I should pursue obedience if I'm really safe and secure and I can't earn anything. That's a legitimate question that people always are wrestling within the church when they hear the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Well, to quote the Proverbs, the way of the transgressor is hard. I don't know about you, but when sin is had its course, it's not fun and that is not what the motivation we're talking about. But there is a side of me that says, Hey, realistically you look at anybody who goes headlong into sin, they're typically not a very happy person. They might be on the outside, but no, the results of sin are never satisfying. Unfortunately, all three of us men, we still sin because we think it will satisfy our flesh still desires it. Oh wait, we're not supposed to. We're all were born in suit and ties and sanctified. We came out like John The Baptist. I said this to my congregation recently, I said, if I had the capacity within me, like if God gave me the spiritual gift to love my wife perfectly as Christ loved the church, to be the perfect dad, to be the perfect citizen, to be the perfect pastor, I promise you if I could do that, I would because it would bring more joy and less pain in my life and it would glorify God to the supreme, like the utmost. But I can't do those things. Right? That's the problem.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: So Justin, to go back to something you said, to the person, we're speaking of a hypothetical individual, the person who says, well, if I can't earn anything and if all of the punishment has been placed on Christ, which those things are true, then why obey? And really when you think about that, that's not an antinomian spirit. That's not an anti-law spirit. That's still a legal spirit. I'm still operating on legal terms with God. And so if I don't have to fulfill any legal terms, then what the heck. Why do any of this?  
  
Justin Perdue: So biblically, the best place to launch us into the rest of this conversation would be Romans 6:1 and following. So when Paul anticipates the objection after he has made the Gospel very clear, should we sin all the more that grace may abound, he says by no means. And then he doesn't pound people with law, he doesn't give them rules to keep, he doesn't threaten or anything like that. He says, by no means, may it never be, because you've been united to Christ through faith. And then he goes on to talk about how we have been delivered from the dominion of sin and we have been set free. We're no longer under law, we're now under grace. And then he says these wonderful words, thanks be, praise be to God because you have now become obedient from the heart. And so in one sense, we're answering the question, okay, well bro, why do I obey? Like why obey? Well, because you've been set free and you actually can obey now. So let's start there. It's good for you. It produces good things in your life and you actually can now. So the question I'm asking is why would you not obey?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: The ability that you did not have before, you now have. The ability to obey God from the heart. God has now circumcised your heart, removed the obstinate nature of your flesh and has given you this ability. God is producing these things. It's a thing of wonder. It's a thing of glory that God is doing this in you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Well I think what's hard for the Christian is to not live on a scale balanced life where we evaluate, we evaluate our intentions, we evaluate our actions. So, if someone feels, and how many of you as pastors over the years have heard, well I'll get back into church once I what? Clean up my life.  
  
Justin Perdue: Clean things up once I'm doing better.  
  
Jon Moffitt: They want to balance out the scales a little bit before they walk into the door because then they'll say, I don't want God to strike me down. But that's a person not looking in the mirror. That's a person looking down saying, well, if I just, you know, change my clothes a little bit. Well, unfortunately, a lot of Christians feel this way. That I don't feel like obeying because I'm so far away. I'm so evil. I'm so wicked. They don't live in Gospel, they live in Law. So the motivation is, well, I guess all obey once I can clean up these things, I can fix this bad habit. Then there's a motivation to obey. And what we're trying to say is that if you look at the cross, you'll never have the opportunity to look at yourself. You won't live on a scale and you will just as much as you possibly can, through the power of the spirit, you'll say, look, I'm going to obey because it's the right thing to do, even though the scales are tipped in my disfavor.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think maybe one of the best passages that's just straight gold when it comes to this question, it speaks to a number of the things we've already raised. Like why obey at all? Where does the motivation come from? And it also speaks to this kind of corporate dynamic versus this rugged individualism. So Hebrews 10, 11 and following, I'm not going to read all these verses, but just kind of a summary. I mean the writer of the Hebrews is talking about the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ. He made an offering once and for all and then he sat down because it's over. Redemption is done. Verse 14 of Hebrews 10, For by a single offering, he, Jesus, has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. So he has perfected all of us who are being sanctified by the Spirit. And then he goes on to talk about forgiveness and the reality of forgiveness. But then he moves on into this full assurance of faith section where he tells us because of Jesus and because we have this great high priest and because of the access we have to God let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith because we've been sprinkled clean and all of these things, let's hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering because God is faithful. And here's the thing, here we go and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together as is the habit of some but encouraging one another all the more, as you see the day drawing near. We're motivated by what Christ has done. We're motivated by safety and security and rest and peace. And we do this in the context of the church seeking to stir one another up in love and good works.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: So much of this conversation just revolves around the idea of how is it that you relate to God. How is it that we as Christians relate to God, and it's not on this legal scheme. We relate to God on the basis of the blood and righteousness of Christ imputed to us. So there is a little book, I think it might be on our recommended reading site, where it's called A Gospel Primer. It's by Milton Vincent. And there's some little truths in here that are great. And I love one of the things that he writes. He says this, how can I come to love God with all of my being? The Bible teaches that genuine love in my heart for God is generated by what? An awareness of his love for me. And nowhere. Nowhere is the love of God more clearly revealed than in the Gospel. And so again, to re- drill this in, so much of our posture in this can come from my awareness as God's law for me, what God requires of me. This is why you see so clearly in the New Testament, these authors, Peter, Paul, the writer of the Hebrews, they are drilling in, the sufficiency of Christ, the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ on your behalf because this is where you need to start.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen. Jimmy, you're pointing out the reality that we tend to still, even in the church, we tend to still relate to God as judge. Whereas we have been told that in Christ Jesus, by the Holy Spirit, we have been adopted into the family of God and we now call him Father. So we've not been given the spirit of fear, we've been given the spirit of adoption. By whom? By which we call God Father, so we're not constantly striving and struggling to climb up into our Father's arms, it's like, no, we're their man. Like we are safe and we're secure and so you're exactly right. Rather than relating to God and these legal terms, we have to understand that God is no longer our judge. He is now our Father and we relate to him in that way.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What was recovered, we've said this many times, what was recovered in the reformation was the doctrine of assurance. You remove assurance, you remove the motivation for obedience from delight. And what ends up happening is obedience is to affirm or confirm or assure your salvation. And what we're saying is no. The reformation and biblical understanding of scripture is that the believer is assured by faith in Jesus Christ alone, by God's grace alone, through his power alone, through the regenerating and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once the believer has faith in Jesus Christ, there is absolutely no reason to ever doubt that their sins have been separated as far as the east is from the west and that our obedience, which is empowered by the spirit, God looks past all of our sins and sees our affection towards him and sees our desire to love him, which he implanted into us and the good works, which he ordained before the foundations of the world, and uses them for the advancement of the Gospel and uses them for the building up of the saints. So when we look at obedience, don't ever say, man, I don't,... Because this is the question, boys, How much obedience is enough to assure you? How much?  
  
Justin Perdue: Who sets that standard?  
  
Jon Moffitt: So if that's not the standard and we're not going there to assurance, but if that's not the standard, then don't look at your obedience and strive to measure it up. Just pursue it, allow the spirit to do his work and enjoy the absolute no fear, or wonder does your Father love you? Does he care for you? Does he accept you? Because he does. Now go do the Father's work because you're accepted.  
  
Justin Perdue: Amen. In this whole conversation, it's critical for us to remember that the Holy Spirit of God is the one who does that heart-changing, heart transforming work that produces obedience. But then the question is, okay, how does he do that? What means does he use to do that? Because a lot of times I think people ask the question, say, okay, like they're sitting in there listening to us and they're like, okay brothers, I think I'm tracking with you. Assurance and peace and joy and all those kinds of things, are the motivator. I'm there, but still, give me some handles. Help me practically think about obedience and my Christian life, my walk, in aiming to follow Christ and honor God.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. Quiet, quiet times.  
  
Justin Perdue: Come on, we'll talk about that later. Ladies and gentlemen, he'll be here all week.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's right. Yeah, that's right. Well, and first of all don't, I mean, boy, I probably just made a bunch of people mad.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just save that for the members. Save it for the members.  
  
Justin Perdue: Don't hear what we're not saying.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: No. And, and, and here's the thing again, as we talk about this communal nature of the New Testament written to churches, I think, again, this is why we point to ordinary means. This is why we point to, Word and sacrament if you will, or Word and ordinance, if that's more comfortable for you. It's the idea of when we gather around the Word preached, the Word sung, the Word prayed, the Word read, the Word seen in baptism and the Lord's table, what are we seeing? We're seeing the Gospel. We are seeing the Gospel be central within the life and worship of the church. And so when we gather on the Lord's Day and the law of God is read to its fullest extent. That we are unworthy in ourselves to relate to God in a meritable sense, that when the law of God is read, it drives us to our knees to relate to God only and solely through Christ. Here's the thing, we have to get out of our mindset that each Sunday, when we gather for worship, is going to be this incredible, emotional experience that, man, after each Sunday, I'm just going to be so refreshed to go live this life of joyful obedience. Now, praise God if that's you. If you live in that reality, God be praised. But I think for the most of us, we need to take a long view that God's ordinary means of Word preached and read and sung, the Lord's table, remembering our baptism, or as I think it's the Westminster larger catechism talks about improving our baptism, as we remember those things and gather around those things, God is going to use these promised ordinary means to develop within us this life of obedience,  
  
Justin Perdue: Picking up where you are there, Jimmy, God, by his Spirit transforms us. He uses the word to do it. He uses sacrament to do it. He uses the fellowship of the saints to do it. So all of these ordinary means, realities take place within the context of the church. They take place in corporate life, in the body of Christ. And so practically one of the things that I always tell people when they ask me this question like, Bro, what do I do? It's like, okay, well beginning with something quite simple, show up, show up to church on Sunday. Just be present. Be here. Like this isn't rocket science. It's actually quite simple. Show up in fellowship with the saints on Sunday as the Word is heralded, it's read, it's preached as we sing and pray and as we partake of the Lord's table. Let's start with that. And one of the great ironies in this conversation is that sometimes people who are most geeked up to talk about personal devotional life are often times people that miss the corporate gathering regularly. I'm not saying that's always true, but there is an irony that I see and I'm sure you brothers have seen it too, and perhaps we'll continue that conversation over in the members' podcast area. So it seems brothers, that we've got more to say on this topic and I mean Jimmy, you fired the shot across the bow man, referencing quiet times and all of that stuff. I'm sure that people want to hear more about that. So friends, if you've enjoyed what we've talked about so far and you're interested in participating with us in the members' podcast, which is where the three of us are headed right now, you can do that by heading over to Theocast.org You'll find more information there on the website about our total access membership. We would love to have you become a member, where you can gain that total access to all of the material that we offer through the podcasts and articles and other things on the website. We look forward to seeing you over there on the members' side. Thank you for listening to Theo cast. If you'd like to contact us or find out additional information about our membership, you can do so at Theocast.org.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-archive-favorites-obedience-is-not-a-dirty-word-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-archive-favorites-obedience-is-not-a-dirty-word/)

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### Why All Calvinists Are Not Reformed (Transcript)

*Published: July 22, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/why-all-calvinists-are-not-reformed-transcript*
*Tags: Calvinism, Calvinism vs Reformed, Calvinist, reformed, Reformed Theology, Why Not Call Calvinist are Reformed*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/why-all-calvinists-are-not-reformed/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we are going to discuss the difference between being Reformed and being a Calvinist. I know many think that being a Calvinist is being Reformed, but they're actually different. We're going to explain why we have three major reasons that we believe would be a distinction between those who are Reformed and those who would just believe in the five points of Calvinism. Then towards the end of the podcast, we explain why it is important for the distinction. If you love resting in Christ and the message of Theocast, then this is going to be coming from a Reformed perspective.  
  
In our members' podcast, the three of us explain our transition out of pietism or Calvinism and into a confessionally Reformed perspective. Hopefully, we'll share with you some other additional help in the members' podcast. Stay tuned.  
  
Justin Perdue: In the church, most broadly in the Western context where we're in America, the terms Reformed and Calvinist or Calvinistic are oftentimes used almost synonymously. In the minds of many people, to be a Calvinist is to be Reformed or to be Reformed is to be a Calvinist. What we thought we would do on this podcast is talk about the differences and distinctions between those two terms: what they mean and what they represent. Just to give a high-level summary here: if you are Reformed, you are a Calvinist. But not all people who are Calvinists - in the sense of being a five-pointer - are Reformed. There is a distinction between those two terms.  
  
The reason that we want to have this conversation is not to be condescending. It's not like we think that we are a part of some club that not everybody is a part of. None of those things are motivation. What we want to do is bring some clarity to this and help people understand the differences because we think the difference between being a Calvinist and being Reformed is significant for our lives in Christ and in the local church. It has everything to do with the things that we talk about here on Theocast all the time - namely resting in Christ, resting and trusting in his work, our place in his sufficiency and adequacy, and the fact that he has done it all for us and there is nothing left for us to contribute. The distinction between being Reformed and being a Calvinist has everything to do with those things.  
  
A lot of times people, especially those that are newer to Theocast, hear us use the word Reformed. Then they will hear other people use the word Reformed or call themselves Reformed and think that they are talking about the same things that we are. That is not always the case. The purpose of the conversation today is as always to point people to rest in Jesus, but to make those distinctions clear so that people can remove the clutter and eliminate some of the confusion.  
  
We don't like it when categories are collapsed. Hopefully this conversation will be clarifying and helpful to the listener.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something else that I wanted to throw in by way of introduction is to say this: on behalf of all of those who claim the title of Reformed, allow me to sincerely apologize to those of you have had bad experiences with those who have called themselves Calvinists. That's another reason why we want to have this distinguishing conversation. There are a lot of those who have claimed the title of Calvinist who show very small amounts of grace and graciousness towards those who don't agree with their views. We think that there are going to be some helpful things that distinguish Reformation Theology from merely what I would call empty or light Calvinistic theology.  
  
Again, we hope that this conversation helps bring some understanding to these categories. I know that there are many people who call themselves Calvinists that I would say are just not my kind of Calvinist. Not to be political but when our current president was elected in 2016, there was this giant hashtag going around that was #notmypresident. You could almost start a hashtag that's #notmycalvinist. Some of these things that I've said fly in the face of classic Reformed theology. Hopefully, as we distinguish these categories, those things become overly and abundantly clear.  
  
Justin Perdue: We did a five-part series on the five points of Calvinism that we could refer people to; if you have total access membership, you can get access to those. Our agenda here today is not to lay out the five points in detail.  
  
One observation I would make before we go further into this conversation is that many people who claim to be Calvinists or who would label themselves as Calvinists are not even consistently five-point Calvinists, as it's historically understood. What they mean is that they are Calvinistic in their soteriology, or their understanding of salvation, meaning that they believe in predestination, in the sovereignty of God, in election, and things like that. That almost is the extent of their Calvinism. Sometimes those inconsistencies, even within that Calvinistic framework, lead to some of the bludgeoning, the condescension, and the lack of grace and charity that we see manifest itself all over the place - most notably on Calvinistic Twitter. It's a tough place to be sometimes. I know that's going to resonate with many people. I myself have thought about getting off of social media for a number of reasons: one of them being just the absolute mudslinging that takes place amongst professing Calvinists.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The listener may or may not know: I love golf. It's something I enjoy watching and playing. If someone says, "I like golf,” I would think that's great and ask what courses do they play. They reply, "I play the putt-putt course right down the road." I would say, "Is that all? Is that the only place that you play?" Putting is definitely a part of golf but it is not golfing. That is not equal to saying that you are a golfer because there's much more that is involved. There so many technical parts of golfing that you have to own the right kind of clubs and know how to use them. You need to know the rules if you're going to enjoy the game and not hurt somebody and get kicked off of a course. When it comes to the word Reformed, just like putting is a part of golf but putting is not golf, Calvinism is a part of Reformed theology but it is not Reformed theology; Reformed theology is much broader and much more technical. There is a structure behind what's going on and Calvinism happens to fit inside of that. What we're going to do now is walk you through the key points that you must adhere to, historically, if you're going to hold to the perspective that we have been sharing for the last five years; these are the key points that you need to believe in or hold or understand to legitimately say you hold a historic Reformed perspective of Scripture.  
  
I'll start with the first one. I would say the biggest one historically would be Covenantalism, which is a covenantal perspective of the Bible. There was a debate a while back, and we did a short podcast on this, as to whether you can be Calvinistic and dispensational. I think there are a lot of guys who probably would fit that, but I do not think you can be Reformed and dispensational because the background of Reformed theology is legitimately covenantal.  
  
First, what do we mean by covenantal for someone who might be brand new to Reformed theology or even to Covenant theology?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We actually hope to dive into this further very soon, but Covenant theology from our perspective - because even within that there are different views - but at its at its core, there are three major covenants of Covenant theology: first is the covenant of redemption, which is the eternal covenant made between the three Persons of the Godhead to redeem sinners. We see that clearly in places like Ephesians 1\. Then you have the covenant of works and the covenant of grace. The covenant of works is the covenant that God had with man that in order to have a righteous standing before God, that you need to have perfect works. You need to have perfect righteousness on your own account. But you also have the covenant of grace, which is the covenant that God also makes with man that is mediated by Jesus Christ, where God does not look to the works of man or the works of Adam, but rather He looks to the works of Christ. He does so by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone, and imputes that perfect righteousness to His people. Those are the three major covenants.  
  
It's important because if you don't see these categories in Scripture, particularly the covenant of works and the covenant of grace, what happens is as a pastor or preacher, you will typically try to lay a covenant of works back on your people. Here's what I mean by that: if you don't make these categories, particularly of the covenant of grace that talks about how it is all of God's sheer, boundless, unmatched, wonderful, beautiful grace, what you'll do is you'll lay a covenant of works back on people and say that in order to be blessed and have this kind of standing with God, you must do this. You must pray like this. You must read this much. You must repent this much by. In essence, you are saying it's all contingent upon the works that you do. We'll get into that a little bit more when we begin talking about the means of grace, but I want to let you guys come in and help fill out some of those edges as well on Covenant theology.  
  
Justin Perdue: I would summarize Covenant theology this way: Jesus fulfills the covenant of works in the covenant of grace in order to accomplish the covenant of redemption. That is critical. I hope the listener can understand and connect the dots as to how that is inextricably linked from the rest in Christ that we talk about all the time. We will talk about Jesus being sufficient. We'll talk about him being adequate. We'll talk about him having done everything that's necessary for salvation and how there's nothing left to contribute. Not only redemptive-historical understanding of Scripture, but the covenantal framework of Scripture dovetails so beautifully with all of these understandings. If you start to pull these things apart, you kill the whole thing.  
  
The sufficiency of Christ and a covenantal framework go together. So when we will point people outside of themselves and to the work of Christ in their place, when we will point people to Christ faithfulness and not their own faithfulness, what we are doing is we are teaching the Bible in a redemptive-historical covenantal way.  
  
You'll notice that amongst many of the guys in evangelicalism, in particular those who would claim to be Reformed and who are Calvinistic at least in their understanding of salvation, or what we like to call Calvingelical, they will deny the covenantal framework of Scripture - in particular, they will deny the covenant of works. When you deny the covenant of works and you don't understand that Jesus has fulfilled that covenant in the place of the redeemed in the covenant of grace, this is where you get guys coming back in and putting burdens upon the Christian and giving them things that they must do in order to secure their salvation. It reintroduces works back into the Christian life as a part of the ground of our standing before the Lord; in turn, assurance, peace, and security go away. The covenantal framework and that confessional understanding, that outside-in, the objective realities of the gospel, looking outside of ourselves to say what's wrong in us, and even that declarative reality that it's done and it's finished, and that there's nothing left to be accomplished - those things are inextricably linked to Covenant theology. So in order to be Reformed, one must be Covenantal.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. We talk about this a lot when we are encouraging people to rest in Christ.  
  
Everyone knows the language "second Adam". Jesus is the second Adam. Where Adam failed, which is to obey God perfectly in the garden, Christ came and was born of a man and fulfilled where Adam failed. Of course, Jesus wasn't born in a garden and he didn't have to go through the temptation of receiving the fruit; instead, God established the Law covenant with Moses and Christ went and fulfilled all of the requirements of the Law. He proves that not only is he worthy, but it says in Adam, all died and in Christ all are made alive. So all the Scripture is really about two Adams: it's the Adam who failed and the Adam who succeeded and you are presented this. Covenant of works is "Adam, if you do what is right then you will be blessed and live eternally in that status that he was with God". But he failed. So what does Christ earn for us? Jesus doesn't come in and clean the slate where Adam failed. We are told that not only does Christ pay for the failures of Adam, but he then accomplishes all of the work that we need to enter into eternity. That's the covenant of grace.  
  
So the whole Bible is what we call bi-covenantal. It's made up of the story of these two covenants where there are those who have failed to earn salvation rightly by their works, and another where Christ comes in, pays for their failure, and then earns the righteousness. Then he says all can have this by faith alone.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: To have a covenantal view of the Christian life also means to have a covenantal view of the Bible. Doing so helps us to see the Bible as one cohesive unit that finds its culmination and point in Jesus Christ. I can hear people in the background asking, "What about the Noahic covenant? What about the Abrahamic covenant? What about the Davidic covenant?"  
  
Let's take the Noahic covenant. God makes a covenant says, "I will not judge the earth again in this way." We have the rainbow; we're not going to see a flood. But later we see in the New Testament that Peter and the different apostles talk about that wherein our baptism, the waters of judgment pass over us but we are raised again to new life. Then you have the Abrahamic covenant that Christ fulfills that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. You have the Davidic covenant that Jesus is the true and better David who is sitting on the throne. You have the new covenant in Jeremiah that the Spirit in the work of conversion takes out of our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. You have the Mosaic covenant that Jesus fulfills. As we see all of these covenants fit within this frame, I believe, of the covenant of works and the covenant of grace.  
  
When you see this, it constantly points the believer outside of himself or herself to the work that God is doing. I see this happening in the Calvingelical world often: in the Old Testament we find different passages - Joseph, David, and what have you - and ask what did the godly men of old used to do and how do we bring that back in? Rather, I think a Reformed covenantal view helps us see God is fulfilling his unique promises to his people ultimately in the person and work of Jesus Christ.  
  
So how does the story about David or Solomon or Daniel fit into that narrative? That we, as people, can be invited to trust and rest in the promise-keeping God that covenant theology portrays. That is the helpful thing that Reformed theology does.  
  
Jon Moffitt: What Jimmy just described here is you have a covenantal framework. Another way of describing this is the way in which you interpret and read your Bible: the way it is labeled as a redemptive, historic understanding of Scripture, which is a Reformed perspective. That is what the Reformers were teaching and pushing. When we say redemptive, we mean that from Genesis to Revelation, the story of the Bible is redemption: it's how God redeemed sinners, and it is read, understood, and unfolds throughout history. We are not pulling it apart. We're allowing it to be seen as it is unfolding in history.  
  
This is the one I always love to point to in Genesis 3: when Adam and Eve fall, what does God do? He makes a promise that of the seed of Abraham one will come and crush the head of the serpent. You immediately have the promise of a Messiah coming and the question is who is he? How is he going to get here?  
  
As it unfolds, there are two major themes: one, the need. As Jimmy said, you get the Noahic covenant and he says, there is none in the earth; they are all evil; they are all doing what is right in their own eyes. If God wipes out all of humanity, He wipes out His promise to Eve and Adam - and of course He doesn't; He preserves it. As you are reading the Old Testament, you can see that there is none who have ever been able to be the second Adam. The question is, where is that second Adam who's going to come? It gets clarified through every covenant we know: it's coming through the Abrahamic covenant; and then eventually through the one who obeys the Mosaic covenant, and then we know through the line of David, through the line of Solomon, he'll be a King who sits on the throne forever. So it's this epic story. By the time you get to Matthew, you wonder why the genealogies are there. It's so you know that you have the right Messiah and that you're putting your faith in the right guy. Then Jesus's miracles prove that he's the right guy. That's a redemptive-historic understanding of Scripture.  
  
The point of it is not to look for Jesus throughout every verse, but look to see how he's going to be fulfilled in these verses. It's not to make your life a Daniel, David, or a Joseph.  
  
Justin Perdue: You get the promise of the covenant of grace revealed in Genesis 3:15, and then we work our way through redemptive history and we see the covenant of grace established and accomplished in Christ in the new covenant.  
  
To pick up where you left off, Jon, when Jesus shows up on the scene as the new and better Adam, as the second Adam who will fulfill the covenant of works, thinking about Matthew's gospel, it begins with a genealogy. When Jesus is an adult, what are the first things that we read about and hear about him doing? It begins with his temptation and his baptism. Those two things are massive. This is a good litmus test for how a person understands Scripture with respect to this covenantal framework. If we look to the temptation of Jesus and our number one take away is that Jesus used Scripture to defeat the devil, I would argue that that is not a covenantal understanding and that's not a redemptive-historic understanding of that passage; that's a decent secondary application. The point of the temptation of Christ is that the first Adam was tempted in a paradise and had everything going for him and fell. The second Adam is tempted in a wilderness, has nothing going for him - everything's stacked against him - and he succeeds.  
  
Even in his baptism - what does he say to John the Baptist? John the Baptist is wigging out; he's saying, "I'm not the one who should baptize you. If anything, you should baptize me." Jesus says, "No, it's appropriate that we do this in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled." What is that? Jesus doesn't need baptism for his own sake. He's doing it for his people's sake. Right out of the gate, in terms of his life and ministry, it's very clear that what matters most is who this Jesus is and what he has come to accomplish - and he has come to accomplish redemption and the salvation of his people, and he's come to do everything.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Even at Christ's baptism, what were the people coming to do at the baptism with John the Baptist? They were coming for repentance, a leaving of their sins in the water. A covenantal view helps you see that when Jesus goes down in the water, what does he come up with? He comes up with the sins of his people on his shoulders and he carries them for three years to the cross. It's just beautiful that a covenant understanding can give you these big pictures.  
  
We talked about covenant theology that's a distinguishing mark of Reformed versus Calvinistic theology. I think another thing that is a big litmus test is how we understand the means of grace. What I mean by that is how we understand the ways and means that God uses in our lives to grow us, to mature us, and to conform us into the image of Christ.  
  
I'll just offer a personal anecdote that in the Calvinistic background that I had, the means of grace that were often given to me are not bad things. The means of grace that were given to me were personal prayer and a personal reading and study of Scripture. Those were the primary means. Again, they're not bad things. We have the Bible in various translations that are readable, approachable, and affordable. It's a blessing. It's a gift. We can have it. We can read it. God does invite us to pray in a private sense; it's not a bad thing. But when we talk about the chief ways that God uses to grow His people, what are the different understandings between Reformed and Calvinistic?  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is definitely a distinction. I was a Calvinist for many, many years and I had never heard the phrase "means of grace" or knew what it meant. When I began to discover these, I realized it was very different than what I have been told. I can say I'm with Jimmy in that the way in which my faith was strengthened and the way that I sanctified myself was by my personal efforts. Spiritual disciplines is another way of saying this. There's nothing wrong with disciplining yourself and there's nothing wrong with reading Scripture. Understanding what the Bible tells us is the primary way in which God interacts with us.  
  
Let me explain it this way: you read God's word and the reason you read God's word is that you believe that it's going to strengthen your faith. Then why don't we just read God's word on Sunday morning? Just spend 45 minutes reading the word. Why would that not be sufficient for the church to strengthen their faith? Have you ever thought about this? God does not command the church to read. It does say in 1 Peter 4:13 that until Jesus comes to devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture and exhorted to teaching. It doesn't say just reading; we are actually exhorted to explain. This is why He says He has gifted preachers and teachers. Preachers and teachers are not readers; they don't just get up and read Scripture, but they are to get up and explain it and then exhort the believer to obey and practice it within the church. If you think that the primary way that God grows you is through the reading of His word, the problem with that is you cannot point to anywhere in Scripture that says this. But I can show you multiple times - Ephesians 4 and Hebrews 10 just as two examples - where when the word of God is appropriately used by gifted people, it says when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love. We are told that is through the public preaching and teaching of God's word.  
  
Secondly, we are also told about the sacraments: baptism and the Lord's Table. When we receive the Lord's Table, we are told to do that together as we gather. It's not separate from the word. If you were to eat bread and drink wine it will not do anything for you spiritually, because if it did I would have a heavy diet of the two; I would want to be as spiritual as I possibly could. But when it's presented to us in the corporate body with the word, the word brings the power and it becomes the physical way in which we interact and receive from the presence of Christ. He strengthens our faith. I would say that is a very Reformed view and it is not a Calvinistic view. I would say very few Calvinist evangelicals would hold that perspective of those two means.  
  
Justin Perdue: Historically speaking, the ordinary means of grace most primarily are understood as word and sacrament. Then we could add prayer in the corporate context, the singing of Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, and then the fellowship of the saints in general.  
  
But a few observations about the ordinary means of grace: they're called ordinary means because they are in and of themselves ordinary things that we do. Then the Holy Spirit of God takes those ordinary means to accomplish His extraordinary ends namely imparting, sustaining, confirming, and strengthening faith. That's what the Spirit does through those means.  
  
A couple of other things. Ordinary means of grace only take place in a corporate gathered church context. This is important because the vast majority of evangelicals think that the real stuff of the Christian life happens when they're by themselves but biblically speaking, that's not true. The New Testament is very clear that the real stuff of the Christian life and the real growth in the faith happens when we are gathered as a church. The Spirit shows up to uniquely minister in that setting and we are grown and sustained in the faith through the ordinary means in the context of the gathered church over our lifetime. Stuff that happens when we're by ourselves is not meaningless - that's not what we're saying at all. It's just that the real important stuff that God has promised to do happens in the context of the gathered church.  
  
Last observation on the ordinary means. I think that in evangelicalism, and amongst the Calvingelical type crowd, the means of grace even as they understand it are often made to be more about our faithfulness and dedication to God than they are about God's dedication and faithfulness to us. This is probably most obviously seen in the Lord's Table because the Lord's Table for so many people becomes this place that is just riddled with anxiety. There is this pressure to work myself up into this emotional frenzy over my sin. If I partake of this in an unworthy manner, I'm eating and drinking judgment on myself; if I come and do it rightly, the best that's going to happen for me is that I'm being obedient. When in reality, what we understand is that God shows up by his Spirit and through faith; we are receiving the merits and the benefits of Jesus Christ in the bread and the wine; we're being sustained and we're being confirmed and strengthened through that. There's a real spiritual presence of Christ ministering to his people at the Table. As John Calvin said, it's not for the strong but for the week; it's for sinners who have botched it this week and are coming again to cast themselves upon the mercy of God in Christ in receiving the bread and the cup. Even there, it's that kind of outside-in reality: you're looking outside of yourself to Christ to save what's wrong in you through the ordinary means of grace.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Lest you think who are these three 30-something-year-old pastors who are making category distinctions like this, allow me to read from the 1689 London Baptist Confession, chapter 14, paragraph one, on saving faith. This is what the framers of this Reformed confession say: "The grace of faith, by which the elect are enabled to believe so that their souls are saved, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts. Faith is ordinarily produced by the ministry of the Word. By this same ministry and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed by God, faith is increased and strengthened." Justin, I think you hit the nail on the head where you said in kind of a Calvinist mindset, the means of grace - and I've also heard of them as the habits of grace - are really these individual works and actions of the believer; that my growth and my sanctification are drummed up within myself. Not to say that individual spiritual disciplines are wrong or bad, in fact it's quite the opposite, but rather within a greater Reformed understanding of the Christian life, what we see is that the means of grace are these corporate realities.  
  
I love how you emphasize this, Justin, when you talk about prayer as the outworking of faith. That prayer is something we do in a corporate sense. It's also something we do in an individual sense, but means of grace in a truly Reformed understanding are things that push us outside of ourselves and into a corporate body, but also onto objective realities.  
  
We can even say from a Baptist perspective that baptism is something that God does to us. We can say that when we are served at the Table of the Lord, it is the Lord serving us and not us serving the Lord. That when the pastor stands in the pulpit to preach, to declare, and to herald Christ from the pulpit, it is something that is coming from outside of us into our ears. The means of grace are external realities landing in the place of individual hearts. It is not something that we drum up in and of ourselves.  
  
Now, can we read our Bibles individually? By all means, yes, you can. It is not a bad thing. But these things - the individual prayer and study, they are not the chief and primary means. What we are talking about are these corporate realities, particularly word and sacrament.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Reading your Bible in today's world should be done for the sake of gaining a greater awareness of the God who saved you, as well as for the use of the encouragement of the benefit of the body. Mostly people read their Bibles because they want to and it's all inward; I read because of me. I will tell you right now that I work harder on my sermons and I spend long hours on it because I know that it's going to benefit and needs to benefit the body. We are so introspective and so individualized that we read the Bible because we want to be good little Christians. Whereas Scripture says consider how to build one another up. You've received these truths now read your Bible to consider on how to build one another up.  
  
I want to say one last illustration for you. When Christ says, "Take this as my body and eat," he's using a beautiful illustration that we sustain ourselves on Christ and that illustration of the Lord's Table is that. We are eating and drinking the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Just as we need food and water to sustain ourselves, we must have the preached word and the Table to sustain us as how we live. Most non-Reformed people do not see the sustaining of their life in the means of grace from what I have seen historically.  
  
Justin Perdue: Baptism is the sign that points to our union with Christ; we are baptized into Jesus. We're vitally united to him. Then in the Lord's Table, we are feeding on him by faith and being sustained by him. So it has everything to do with our vital union to Christ and what he has done for us.  
  
The last thing that we should talk about in this regular portion of the podcast that is a distinction of Reformed theology over and against just merely a Calvinistic understanding of theology would be the distinction between Law and gospel. In order to be Reformed, historically speaking, we would hold to that Law-gospel distinction. We did an entire podcast on this not that long ago that the listener could refer to so that they may get this in a fuller presentation. For now we could begin to talk about the distinction between Law and gospel in this way: anything we see in Scripture that tells us to do something, an imperative or a command where we're told to do these things and you will live forever, that is Law. Anywhere in Scripture where we are told what Christ has done for us we are to receive by faith, that is gospel. So to do is Law, done is gospel.  
  
That framework is really helpful in understanding Scripture, even the way that God deals with his people, and the way that God saves us. We're very unashamed here at Theocast that only one person in the history of the world has ever done the gospel, and his name is Jesus. We do not, as Christians, do the gospel; we don't live the gospel. We receive the work of Christ by faith and receive what he has done for us. We don't contribute anything in terms of something that's necessary for our salvation.  
  
Obviously that Law-gospel distinction is something that many people who are Calvinists would not understand. I've been in conversations many times with guys who are absolutely Calvinistic but bristle at the idea of Law-gospel distinction and see it as something that we're reading down on the text. We would just say that no, this actually comes up out of the text and it's very clear. We're not imposing it on the text; it comes out of it as we read it, interpret it, and preach it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I was preaching the end of Hebrews 12 this last Sunday, and its plain right there that he gives them the terror of the Law, even to the illustration that the Law and God's holiness to adhere to the Law are so terrifying. He points them back to Exodus 19 and 20, where if they would even touch the mountain, they would die. He says, "But you haven't come to the mountain. You have been brought into Mount Zion. The reason you can be brought here is that the mediator, Jesus Christ, has brought you here." That's the distinction between the Law and the gospel. We'll get into this in the members' podcast.  
  
I will say that tor the Calvingelical, the Calvinist non-Reformed believer that I have seen in public ministry, the Law-gospel distinction has been the most confusing and damaging part of not being Reformed. It has caused more people to lose rest.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: The ignorance of that distinction.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It is. What happens is they bring the Law, and they add the Law to the gospel and they don't realize they're doing it because they don't understand there's a distinction.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: As we think about Law and gospel distinction, I think one of the primary differences that you'll see between a Reformed preacher and a Calvingelical preacher is the tone of the sermon. In my church context, we have a lot of young kids. We have a lot of families that are under a fair amount of stress as they've got little ones and diapers and yelling and screaming. Our church is loud on Sunday mornings. We've got a lot of kids in there. For me to stand in the pulpit and to use the Law as this whip, to motivate people unto obedience, the only thing that's going to accomplish is to crush my people. Because most likely the vast majority of my congregants are already feeling the weight of the Law every week.  
  
I said this last week in my sermon that Law is the natural air that we breathe - "do this and live." We are surrounded by it. We are surrounded by the Law each and every day, barking at us to do this, be this, do more, and be better. Where constantly the banner in a Law-gospel distinction view of the Christian life, the banner under which we live and operate, is "it is finished." Christ has accomplished these things on our behalf. The purpose of the Law in my sermon is to crush the person; to see that they can not, in and of themselves, accomplish the Christian life, but that Jesus Christ has lived in their place and invites them to rest in his good and gracious mercy and promises.  
  
So in a Calvingelical mindset, the Law is often used in such a tone that it is a whip to motivate people onto obedience, but it never does. Preaching the Law that way never produces what you think it's going to produce. It's only going to produce either self-righteous people or crushed people. To truly preach and herald the gospel in Christ, to truly preach the gospel that way, is to preach the Law in all of its weight to crush people, but then to lift them, to resurrect them through the meritorious work of Jesus Christ on their behalf.  
  
Justin Perdue: To put a bow on this conversation, I recently tweeted out something like this: to reduce Reformed theology to the five points of Calvinism is not only inaccurate, but it produces a lot of confusion. What we've been trying to speak to today is to try to remove some of that clutter and confusion and make clear the distinctions between Calvinism and Reformed theology.  
  
To sum it up, our understanding, and this is in line with a historical understanding of Reformed theology, would include not only being Calvinistic but being covenantal, being confessional, and then also holding to an understanding of the ordinary means and the distinction between the law and the gospel. If you were going to ask the guys at Theocast what it means to be Reformed, it would mean all of those things. If you're Reformed, you're a Calvinist, but if you're a Calvinist, you're not necessarily Reformed.  
  
We hope that that some of these things have been helpful to the listener.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Thank you for listening. We are going to continue the conversation over in our members' podcast. This is a way for us to discuss additional thoughts. 45 minutes is a short amount of time to get an entire podcast in. It's a varied time; it can be long. We're going to continue that conversation over there.  
  
If you want to join us on this conversation, know that this is really our support team: those people who support Theocast monthly and get behind us to help be the advocates of pushing us along. We try and do extra things for them like providing books and other additional resources just for their generosity. If you'd like to participate with us, you can do that by going over to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com.  
  
We'll see you next week.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-why-all-calvinists-are-not-reformed-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-why-all-calvinists-are-not-reformed/)

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### MEMBERS: Why All Calvinists Are Not Reformed (Transcript)

*Published: July 22, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-why-all-calvinists-are-not-reformed-transcript*
*Tags: Calvinism, Calvinism vs Reformed, Calvinist, reformed, Reformed Theology, Why Not Call Calvinist are Reformed*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-why-all-calvinists-are-not-reformed/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast. I have to say we are growing and it's encouraging to see all the new members coming. Because of that, we have new books, uh, the newest one, _Safe in Christ_: _A Primer on Assurance_ is now available. You can go to our website and get that. We are working on more primers and books on Law-gospel distinction and Christ-centered preaching. We don't lack ideas, we lack resources. The more support we get, the more we can do. So I just want to continue to say thank you.  
  
We have some exciting stuff coming down. A big thing is if you're listening to this right now and you're not listening to it on your phone through our new feature, which is our own private podcast feed where you can have all of our podcasts on your phone, if you're not doing that, you need to go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members and do it because you'll never have to log into the website again to listen to the podcast. It'll notify you every Wednesday morning that there's a new episode. You can also go back and listen to all of the previous episodes as well. I want to encourage you to do that.  
  
This was a good podcast; I felt like it was very clarifying. But one of the things I wanted to do is this: sometimes people hear everything we say and then if we can give an illustration of how we made the transition, that sometimes makes the connection. I know it has for me. I've always enjoyed listening to people transition through theology. I was even recently listening to how this happened with RC Sproul, which I thought was interesting. I remember talking to R. Scott Clark, and he shared that he made his transition out of a Baptist background. I don't know if you guys know this, but Michael Horton as well; if you've ever heard his story about how he transitioned, it's just intriguing and it's helpful to know that you are not alone. Even the guys we look up to also made this transition.  
  
I don't know which one of you guys want to jump into it, but how is it that you made the transition? I don't think any of us grew up in a Calvinistic background, so Calvinism and then into a confessional Reformed understanding.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I'm glad to kind of kick us off here. I grew up in your standard evangelical church. I'm very grateful for that church. The saints at Crosspoint Community Church in Toledo, Ohio loved and served Jimmy Buehler very well growing up and to this day. I call it my Philippians 1:6 church. It's where the Lord began His good work in me. I'm grateful for those saints who loved me, raised me, and were patient with me. It was not Calvinistic by any stretch. I didn't even know what that term meant. It really wasn't until I was in college that I came across what many people call the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Then I was insufferable for a couple of years where nobody was a Christian but me because I believed in Romans 9 or whatever have you.  
  
Unfortunately, what happened is I was emphasizing two things: emphasizing the sovereignty of God in salvation, but also and unknowingly, I was emphasizing a pietistic approach to the Christian life. What I mean by that is I was emphasizing the works, the labors, the things that I had to do in order to "be a good standard Christian." Unfortunately, and this kind of goes back to our means of grace conversation, what happens is when you emphasize the five points of Calvinism which essentially boiled down to Calvinistic or Reformed soteriology alone, you emphasize the sovereignty of God in salvation, but you also and equally emphasize a pietistic approach to the Christian life. What happened is my battle with assurance of salvation exploded because I had this cognitive dissonance of God's sovereignty and salvation but also my works and sanctification. I could not reconcile those two. It really wasn't until I began to search out and lo and behold, it was a bunch of Lutherans who began to rescue me from this pietistic approach - and it was also Theocast so thanks, Jon. I began to understand these categories of pietism. I began to read the confessions: I read the 1689, I read the Belgium Confession, I read the Heidelberg Catechism, I read the Westminster Standards, and I began to see that there was a different way to approach the Christian life. There was a different way to approach the Christian faith where it's not so much about my faithfulness to God, but rather about God's faithfulness to me in Christ. That's just a little bit of my story about how I began to transition from this individualistic Calvinistic pietistic approach to the Christian life to more of these external objective corporate realities of the Christian life that the Reformed confessions speak about.  
  
Justin Perdue: For me, I grew up in a church that was liberal theologically and a bit moralistic culturally. I really think that I heard the gospel at a PCA church in the town where I grew up when I would go with school friends on occasion. My mom was sincere in reading the Bible to me and my sister growing up. My theological upbringing was not great just because of the church environment that we were in. I was constantly frustrated and disenchanted with the church as an institution and Christianity as a religion. But I was confident that Jesus was legit and I struggled with assurance mightily. I would just wrestle with all kinds of things that I saw around me through my teenage years, and then even into college. I swung on a bunch of pendulums because I have just never seen the Christian life lived legitimately in front of me. I had never been exposed to sound doctrine really. It was after college that I was exposed to Calvinism for the first time through a pastor who was called to the church where I was a member and this pastor had a great appreciation for church history. He gave me a lot of really old stuff to read. I started to read Augustine, Luther, and Calvin and guys like that alongside contemporary men like RC Sproul. Of course, I was reading John Piper and some other guys, too.  
  
When I encountered Calvinism, the covenant theology came with it for me. It just made sense. I was in a Baptist environment and I didn't know at the time that Baptist could be covenantal. So I was really wrestling with that for a while, whether or not I was a Baptist or a Presbyterian or something else. That was a real thing for me for a few years. I feel like my journey has been a long one. I think it has been 15 years now that I have been on this pilgrimage to where I am today and it's just been gradual things that have happened, things that I've read, and conversations that I've had.  
  
I remember my mentor in the faith gave me BB Warfield and his work on perfectionism. He told me that it was the most important thing he has ever read with respect to pastoral ministry. For me to understand this was key. Essentially what Warfield was blowing up are the notions that we talk about all the time of just this hyper view of progressive sanctification, that you can transform your life through your discipline and your rigor and your sincerity and all these things.  
  
He's talking about the saint-sinner reality, the ordinary means, and all that. That was very formative for me. I think my constitution and the wrestlings of my mind and heart - for basically my life from 10 or 12 years old and up - primed the pump for me to land and gel and crystallize in this confessional Reformed place. I would say for the last handful of years that I've been where I am now where I feel like the theological stuff has settled for me in my mind and heart, and I couldn't be more grateful for it. It's hard for me to point to one particular moment; it's just been this steady transition for me over the course of a long time.  
  
I'm with you completely, Jimmy, where I know when I encountered Calvinism, I was all for the glory and the sovereignty of God everywhere but I was wrestling to reconcile that with this pietistic understanding of the Christian life. That was still part and parcel of that Calvinistic worldview and framework.  
  
I found myself constantly coming back to Jesus. The only place I could find comfort was Christ. I also found comfort in passages like John 6, John 10, and Hebrews 7:25 where Christ is just clearly going to be the one to do everything. It was only upon encountering confessional Reformed theology that I began to understand how not only the work of Christ there, but then also this understanding of the Christian life actually fit and go together.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's super helpful. I would say where this podcast really came out of was my own experience. That is the reason why I wanted to help people make this distinction. What ends up happening is Theocast gets shared with someone, they start hearing about Reformed theology, and they are realizing there are two parties claiming the word Reformed but they sound different. Why is that? They are confused because they have a lot of people who will claim the word Reformed, yet their theology seems to be so polarizing.  
  
This is what happened to me. I grew up in a fundamental Baptist background. When I became a Calvinist, it wasn't very hard for me to become a Calvinist because I was so over isolating Scripture. I wanted the entire Bible to be true so I started reading the entire Bible. All of a sudden I realized I must be a Calvinist because this is exactly what it's saying. I didn't even know what the word Calvinism was until I started reading John 6 and then I started looking up things online and agreeing with them.  
  
That led me to become a very angry Calvinist because I started to listen to YouTube preachers and to read very prominent people who were known for Calvinism. It turned me into an angry man where I should have been put in a cage - as they said, the cage stage.  
  
It wasn't until I got into seminary and I started being handed Reformed books that I didn't know existed. I was actually in a Dispensational school when they were handing me Reformed books that I began to see that Reformed theology should be creating tenderness and meekness. I started to learn language like confessions, confessionalism, means, and ordinary means of grace.  
  
Unfortunately, it wasn't until I was in seminary that I actually read the confessions. I had a friend who started to become covenantal. He told me he did not see Scripture like a Dispensationalist anymore. He ended up leaving the school and it rocked my world because he was like my best friend in seminary. It was at that point that he sent me a little book on covenant theology that I started reading it and realized he was right. It was at that moment that even my wife said I was different. "What happened? What's going on with you? Why are you changing? You just seem softer now." It was because I wasn't so angry anymore. I wasn't trying to whip people into shape because they weren't taking serious the sovereignty of God. They needed to understand that it's the Jonathan Edwards in me, and my name literally is Jonathan Edward Moffitt though my parents did not name me after him - it's just a fluke because they didn't even know he existed. It wasn't until I began to read covenant theology and truly embrace ordinary means that I realized that it's not people's seriousness about the sovereignty of God that whips them into shape, but it's resting in the means by which God has provided that sustains them and grows them.  
  
I would say today, unfortunately, some of those sermons may still be online. I dread to go find them to see how angry I may have been.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think the role of the confessions is something that I skipped over a little bit in my fly over summary of my transition.  
  
I always loved the Heidelberg Catechism and I was exposed to that pretty early on in my time as a Calvinist. I can just remember certain questions and answers from that catechism being so helpful. Question one is famous for many people: our only hope in life and death. Then there's question 34 on what God requires of us in His Law. That was big for me in thinking about the summary that Jesus gives: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and your neighbors as yourself. Then thinking about what that means and how Luther's understanding of the first commandment, the great commandment, is that nobody has ever kept it - that was big for me. Then also question 60, on how you're righteous before God - the language of that answer is epic. Even though I have broken all of God's commands and I've never kept one of them and I still struggle with sin, the satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ is counted to me by faith. Jesus really has done this. It was things like that along with the 1689 and other Reformed confessions that were really helpful to me, too.  
  
I know we all three have a lot of affection for the confessions because of their role in our lives. Seeing that men had thought about these things for centuries and had really hammered out these issues of doctrine, the confessions are just very clear and helpful, and they reflect the teaching of Scripture. It's really useful. You find some solidarity with brothers and sisters who have gone before you, and you have that I'm-not-crazy moment. People have wrestled with this before.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: When I was in a Calvinistic world, I reached this place where the five points of Calvinism just wasn't enough to address all that I needed to address in the Christian life.  
  
Reformed soteriology is a good thing to understand and appreciate, but to boil Reformed theology down to the five points of Calvinism is just extremely unhelpful eventually when that becomes the only thing that you focus on. I just did not have the tools in my tool belt to address the issues of everyday Christian life and faith. When I began to see the greater view of the Reformed Christian life, when I began to read the confessions, I realized I had missed so much of Reformed theology. Where has this been? I think Jon made this analogy where if we were to look at a Ford Mustang and only look at the tires and conclude that it's a nice car - it just wouldn't make sense. That’s like the five points of Calvinism and Reformed theology. We're just looking at the tires very vital to keep the car moving, but they are not the whole car. When I began to come into a Reformed understanding of the Christian life and faith, it was like actually getting in the driver's seat of the Mustang and realizing this is what this feels like.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I remember specifically reading the confessions for the first time. The Westminster Confession was the first one that I read and it blew my mind. I remember when covenant theology finally clicked; I couldn't get through the Bible fast enough because it was unbelievable how much it was connected.  
  
Hopefully, this is encouraging. The point of all of this is we are praying that if you feel that Reformed theology and Calvinism is weighty on you, and you're feeling like you're getting beat up, our encouragement is that you may not be actually engaging in traditional historic Reformed theology. You may be engaging in Calvingelicalism, which tends to be angry and mean.  
  
Justin Perdue: Personally and anecdotally for me, for lack of a better way to describe it, I know that my arrival in this place where we all find ourselves now by God's grace has certainly changed my life. It has changed my outlook on the Christian life. I feel like in the last handful of years, I'm beginning to learn what it actually means to have rest and freedom in Christ. That was something that I was always talked to about - being free and Jesus or resting in Christ. I thought that sounded incredible. But nothing that I've ever seen or experienced or heard is anything like that because this burden does not feel light. It feels heavy. It was a very liberating thing. My wife and I talk about this a lot: it has changed the tone and tenor of our marriage and our household. There's just a lot more grace and compassion, gentleness, and seeking understanding.  
  
There is a lot of proof in the pudding when it comes to this kind of theology. It really does change the culture of a church. A church can become a safe place and a haven for sinners where nobody is condoning sin or giving it a pass. But because of our understanding, if you're a repentant sinner, it's safe for you. You can come here and talk and confess and pray and plead, and we can all cast ourselves upon the mercy of God and Christ together. That's what we all need. We understand it. For the young guys in our church and for the men in particular who go through like elder development at CBC, when we have this conversation about the distinction between Calvinism and Reformed theology, it's very eye-opening; you can just see light bulbs going off everywhere. This is huge in understanding these things and understanding in particular the difference between this confessional posture and pietism, understanding Law-gospel distinction, and understanding covenant theology. It all starts to click and make sense. You can just see it happening before your eyes with people. I know for me it's been huge, for you guys it's been huge, and a lot of our listeners are making this transition too. Just keep trusting Christ, keep reading, keep listening, and it's a good place to be.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just to your point, Justin, confessional churches or Reformed churches do confess sin. This is what we do. We openly and corporately confess our sins together, which is not what you see in a lot of evangelical churches. We want to talk about the positive, not the negative.  
  
Hopefully this was beneficial and encouraging to you. We pray that we can continue to produce more resources for you. Be in prayer for us. We are working really hard - all three of us are really busy at this season. COVID has added an additional busyness to our schedule, but there's also church planning and just life in general. There's a lot going on but we are genuinely excited to participate in this. We do our best to produce as much as we can.  
  
I know we say this a lot, but it is the absolute truth. Theocast would not exist without our members so please know we are thankful for you because we get to continue to see and encourage more people around the world.  
  
Thank you for your support. We'll see you next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/why-all-calvinists-are-not-reformed-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/why-all-calvinists-are-not-reformed/)

---

### MEMBERS: Should I Stay Or Should I Go? (Transcript)

*Published: July 8, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go-transcript*
*Tags: Church, leaving a church, Legalism, Pietism, Reformed Theology*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/)  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Welcome to the members' podcast. We're continuing our conversation about the idea of when is it right and good to leave a church and to find a new church. Before we get into that conversation again, we just want to say thank you to you and your support. Your kindness and generosity is really helping other people to rest in Christ.  
  
Jon sends us emails that we get where people are so grateful and thankful for the resources that we're putting out there. We want to say thank you for your love and your support. We hope that you like these members' podcasts. We like them. They get a little saucy sometimes but that's just who we are.  
  
So Jon, we're continuing this conversation. What are some primary and secondary issues that you would point out in leaving a church?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Those are tough. I would say that you can't move on any of the things that have to do with the nature of God, the nature of salvation, and the nature of the church. So nature of God, the Trinity, the triunity of God - I would say anything that's going to counteract the creeds. You can't mess with that. Nature of salvation - this is primary in that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. If you're not in what I would say a Calvinistic church, I would say that's probably a secondary issue. If we agree that we are saved by faith alone through Christ alone, and then we may disagree on how that actually happens, it depends on how much they are pressing you on the free will side of it. Because that will mess with your assurance and that can absolutely mess with how ministry is done. But if they would not call themselves a Calvinistic church, that possibly could be a secondary issue. Again, it depends on how the church is handling that.  
  
When it comes down to the nature of the church, I believe that according to Scripture, the primary issues of the church is that it needs to be elder-led and those elders need to be men. Also, that there is a membership there and there's church discipline. I think that if a church isn't willing to enact or to discipline, that's a primary issue that could be reflective of some other issues within doctrinally. Broadly speaking, I would say that it's the nature of God, the nature of the gospel, and the nature of the church.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Some other secondary issues is that you don't necessarily need to die on a hill is church size. There are large churches that care for their people and there are small churches that do not care for their people. There are small churches that care for their people well and large churches that do not care for their people. If you're part of a large church, I don't think it's fair for you to just go to your leadership and say, "Our church is too big. Nobody knows each other. I'm leaving. You guys have no idea what church is." I just don't think that's fair and helpful and it's probably not necessarily true. I've attended both large and small churches and been cared for in both contexts. Did I know everybody in the large church? No. Are there issues and unique problems that arise out of that? Absolutely. But in the same way, there are a lot of issues that arise in small churches. So I would say that that's a secondary issue.  
  
Just to reiterate what Jon said, I think some of the primary issues are if you don't hear the gospel week in and week out - that is a massive thing that you need to consider. When I say you don't hear the gospel, here's what I mean and don't mean: if someone says they're a preacher of the gospel, that doesn't mean they preach an obscure sermon from an obscure text and give you obscure facts, and then just tack on a gospel invitation on the end. They just say that if you'd like to accept Jesus, you can come forward. That is not a gospel preacher. That is not a gospel presentation. When we say a preacher of the gospel, we mean literally a preacher of good news. Someone who is going to herald Christ and him crucified from the entire Bible, regardless of what text you're preaching. You are going to point to the grace and mercy found in Christ alone, crucified for sinners. That is a gospel preacher. If each week you are being pointed to how you can better improve yourself through 10 or 12 steps, I think that's a primary issue because the Bible is being used for life improvement and not for heralding Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's a sticky one. You're talking about a hermeneutic approach. You're talking about an interpretive model approach where we understand that it is a story about Jesus Christ from beginning to end, and it should lead you to faith in Christ - that is the primary mission of the scripture and preaching. That doesn't mean there aren't things for us to do - of course there are things for us to do. Whereas that normally is flipped in that the primary mission of preaching is to get people to do things and it's moral improvement. I think that is a primary issue. You are going to have a hard time receiving Christ if all you're receiving is Law and not gospel.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I want to throw another bomb. Let's move on to some greater nuanced primary and secondary issues. A nuanced primary issue is sanctification - how we view and how we understand how sanctification occurs in this life. I think this is a primary issue for me. If I wasn't a pastor and I was going to a church, this would probably be one of my questions. If we started to attend a church and the pastor wanted to get together, I think one of the questions I would ask is how is the Christian is sanctified in this life? That would be a primary issue for me. The reason why that would be a primary issue for me is because it would show me how they view the Christian life and how they view the Holy Spirit. It would show me how they view the Scriptures. If their answer were something like it's a mixture of God's work and our work, I would go, "Okay, thanks for lunch. This has been great. I'm going to leave."  
  
A nuanced secondary issue for me would be something along the lines of philosophy of ministry. If they didn't use the terms "ordinary means of grace" but still practice them, I could be cool with that. If they have a youth group and a kid’s ministry in ways that maybe I wouldn't do it, but they still herald Christ and him crucified, I can get on board with that.  
  
Jon, what would you are some nuanced primary and secondaries?  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's hard to lump this in, but I would say a large section of the evangelical churches in the United States and around the world view sanctification as the work of man. They put that pressure on you that you must be doing your part to progress as a Christian. If you're new to Theocast and you say, "The Bible says sanctify yourselves," yes, we do believe in the mortification of the flesh.  
  
Sanctify means to set apart. In that section, he isn't talking about progress into the image of Christ; he is talking about separating yourself from the attitude and the actions of the world. Please see the difference there. But the way in which God transforms us into his image from one degree of glory to another is always through the ordinary means of grace and always through the work of the Spirit. It is a monergistic work of the Spirit, and not a work of the flesh. It's going to be very hard to not be discouraged and beat down by the Law if you're in a context where they tell you to discipline yourself for the sake of growing spiritually, and present you with the means by which you are to do that. That's probably a primary means by which I would find it hard for me to be in.  
  
I hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession. I'm convinced in this area. I have studied Lutheranism and I have studied the Presbyterian perspective. I love and respect them obviously because we have them and recommend them all of the time. When it comes to the primary issues, we agree with all of them. We agree with the Presbyterians and we agree with the Lutherans on how one is saved and sanctified - primary issues. Now on the secondary issues about the church, government, and baptism, we do disagree. Jimmy and I had this conversation beforehand. If I was not a pastor and I needed to provide a healthy context for my church, and the only context where I had my job was an Orthodox Presbyterian Church that heralded the gospel and understood sanctification appropriately, and where I could take of the means of grace, I would go there. Even in some circumstances, as Jimmy and I talked about, there are some Lutheran churches that would fit that context - but not all, just so we're clear. Lutherans, Presbyterians, and 1689ers don't all agree on ordinary means of grace and sanctification.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Not all confessional churches are created equal.  
  
I do want to caution against that. Don't just assume that if a church is a 1689 church, they must be awesome. They must be just like these guys. That's probably not necessarily true. The same would go for Lutherans as well as Presbyterians and even Anglicans.  
  
Maybe some healthy questions to ask. If you're meeting with a new church or if you're going to a new church, make yourself known to the pastor and the leadership of the church as quickly as you can. Make yourself known and say this is who we are. We're new. We're considering worshiping here. Just be real. Save yourself a lot of time and have a conversation early. Sit down with that pastor and tell him your context and your history, tell him where you're coming from, and where your theological bents are. I would ask a ton of questions; ask about the pulse of the congregation, ask about expectations that will be had upon you as a new member. Be clear with those things. Church is serious, right? We don't want to over-spiritualize it, but at the same time, we don't want to completely pragmatize it at the same time. We want to find that good and healthy balance. I know a lot of people don't like that word, but there it is. We want to find that good and healthy balance where we want to say, "If I'm going to unite myself and my family to this body of faith, I do want to take it seriously." I would want to ask a lot of questions. I would want to consider the health and the spirituality of this church before I dive in.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I just sat down with the new family that's going to be joining our church and they ask great questions. They asked what church membership looks like, what it entails, and they asked about my view on church discipline. Those were great questions. Then they asked what the church is, and what children's ministry look like here. They wanted to know whether their kids are going to be programmed or are they going to be catechized? I thought those were really great and helpful questions. Those would be the questions that I would ask if I had to go somewhere.  
  
Now, the benefit of the Internet is that a lot of these questions can be answered ahead of time. So you may want to try and answer those and come with maybe one or two questions that you can't find answers on. Do the research before.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: As we wrap this up, I think the big things that we want to emphasize are being charitable. If you're leaving a context, be charitable, be gracious, be kind, and do everything you can to be peaceable. Sometimes that may not be possible. You may need to leave because there is a sharp disagreement. You can be peaceful - you don't have to be a jerk - but there could be some sharp discord there and sometimes you just have to let those chips fall where they may. But do everything you can to be kind, gracious, and generous as you're looking for a new church. We would say before you leave a church, you should perhaps have a different one in mind. Be open, be honest, be gracious, be kind there, and realize that if you're planning on just being a member, you're probably going to have to plug your nose on a few things and partner.  
  
This was something that was hammered to me when I was in college: when you're a church member, be a joy to your pastor. I cannot emphasize that enough. Be a joy to lead and be a joy to shepherd. The last thing you want is your shepherds to pastor and shepherd you out of compulsion because they must. That is not going to benefit you or them or the greater body. Be a joy to lead.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Absolutely. If you are leaving a church because you disagree on their view of sanctification, I think you can say it graciously. Just say, "We don't really agree with this emphasis. This is not a criticism of you. We don't think you're heretical or you're in sin. We just feel like it's best for our context if we have a church that we can agree with on how the believer grows in Christ or how they use the means of grace."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We want to say thank you again to you members who make this possible. We hope this conversation is beneficial to you. Again, be on the lookout for our new primer, _Safe in Christ: A Primer On Assurance_. We look forward to you getting that in your hands and passing that along to your friends. Be sure to share this episode with others if you feel like it would benefit them.  
  
Again, we love you. We're grateful for your generosity and support. We look forward to talking again.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/)

---

### Should I Stay Or Should I Go? (Transcript)

*Published: July 8, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go-transcript*
*Tags: Church, leaving a church, Legalism, Pietism, Reformed Theology*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/)**  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Hi, this is Jimmy. On the podcast today, Jon and I seek to answer the question, "What do you do when it is time to leave your church?" Perhaps you've been listening to Theocast and other reformed podcasts, and you begin to sense this shift that you're having in your local church context that you may need to leave and worship elsewhere. We discussed the ways that are unhelpful to leave and the ways and things to consider to be gracious, kind, and charitable as you consider a new church family.  
  
In the members' podcast, we talk about some primary and secondary issues to consider in thinking about a new home of worship. We hope this conversation is helpful to you and we look forward to you listening.  
  
Maybe you're new to Reformed theology, or a covenantal understanding of the Christian life or a confessional mindset of churches, and perhaps after a year of listening to us three you're now in this place where you're beginning to buy into this Reformed perspective of church and the Christian life. However, the current context or church that you're worshiping in is not like that. What Jon and I want to have a conversation around today is that very situation. What do you do when you find yourself in a church context where you disagree theologically with what is being preached from the pulpit, or perhaps you disagree with the overall theology of the church? What is a person to do when they when they find themselves there? That is what we're going to have our conversation around today.  
  
Let us just be clear from the get-go that our aim in this conversation is not to pick on those churches that we would disagree with. Rather it has always been our aim here at Theocast in the past year to be charitable and to seek unity. We know we have a lot of listeners that disagree with a lot of our stances on things, but in the end our hope is to be loving, kind, gracious, and charitable - to be that kind of voice. We hope to have this conversation today with those themes in mind.  
  
So, Jon, why don't you help us frame this conversation a little bit more?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Every other email we get and every other request through social media has to do with, "I've been listening to you guys for awhile and I love what you're saying. Can you recommend a church in our area?" I'll be completely frank: it breaks my heart every time I get those emails because I understand the pain; I understand the frustration where your heart is exploding, your mind is being refreshed anew, you can't believe what you're hearing, and you just want to go. You're tired of drinking from a podcast - you want to go swim in the pool. You want to be given Christ and him crucified every Sunday. When I get those, it's really hard. I don't have a resource yet; it's something we're looking into.  
  
The first thing we want to start with is you're not crazy. This is something we tell everyone: you're not alone. There's a large group of people who are making this transition. I made this transition about 12 years ago where I found myself wanting more, reading old resources and thinking there seems to be an older way. I don't like saying a better way, but rather that there's an older way that has been abandoned and lost. We've put a carpet over the top of the hardwood floors and the beauty and the joy of what was original is now gone. You probably used to go to church and enjoyed yourself and now you're feeling guilty because now you go to church and you feel critical. You feel like someone handed you cold mac and cheese that has been sitting out for three days when you're just wanting the meat of the word. Now you feel guilty because you're criticizing the teachers and the preachers that you once loved, and you still love them, but you're thinking to yourself that you don't really want cold mac and cheese anymore. It's not giving you the sustenance that you need.  
  
You're not crazy. There are lots of people who are in this situation. It's a good thing because what's happening is that people are actually hungering after Christ. It's not a movement - we are not giving you some new movement or some new thing that's exploding that if you can get on it, then your church will explode. The desire of Theocast is to strengthen the local body and to encourage churches.  
  
I was on the phone yesterday with a guy in Indiana just trying to help him write a primer. More pastors writing on this true historic Reformed faith is what we need. This is where we would start. You're not crazy. You're not alone in this circumstance.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It's one of those things where even in my own background, the experience of Christianity that I was discipled in had me hearing names like John Calvin, Martin Luther, and Charles Spurgeon. I heard these names, but I had a very specific lens through which I read those guys - and the lens that I had was very much this Calvinist evangelical approach to the Christian life that was very centered and focused in a hyper way on what I did: that is my works and my obedience. Over the course of listening to this podcast, as well as reading and hearing other thinkers about the Reformation and the Reformers themselves, I began to question those things. My struggle with assurance was the catalyst into moving into a deeper Reformed understanding.  
  
Perhaps you're like me who had this lens shift where you hear Calvin and Luther quoted from the pulpit, but you have this inner cognitive dissonance. You're thinking they would not agree with how their quotes are being used and how they are being presented. In my case, I began to read those guys. I wanted to stop reading what other people said about Calvin and Luther, and read those guys myself. Once I started reading them, I began to have this completely different understanding about preaching, a sacramental approach to the Christian life, the means of grace, and spiritual disciplines.  
  
I just know that there are guys and gals listening to this right now who are in this place where your lens has completely changed. When you go to church, listen to a podcast, or when you listen to a sermon, you have a completely different grid through which you're filtering everything. If you're in a context right now where you feel like you are beginning to shift in a different theological way than your church, the first thing that I would say to that person is take a deep breath and try to assess realistically where you are. One of the dangerous things that can happen is you can enter into this cage stage where you begin to light up everybody around you and flat out call people pietists. People around you have never heard that word before and it's just really unhelpful - so you don't want to be that person.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Or any imperative or any instruction in Scripture is pietism.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Exactly. You see everything through this super strict, indicative-imperative model where all imperatives are bad. We don't want to go there. Don't overreact. It's like the pendulum swing: don't go from one end to the other.  
  
So the first thing that I would advise somebody is to learn from my mistakes and slow down, take a deep breath, and ask really good questions of yourself realistically. Where are you at?  
  
Jon, when somebody is beginning to have the shift, what are the first steps that we would encourage them toward?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Funny thing is this week, I had lunch and conversations at my own church to help people think through leaving a context that they're currently in. As a pastor, I'm very sensitive to how people leave and how they should leave. The way the Bible describes it is that you are a living organism attached to another living organism; you can't just detach yourself and think it's not going to have an effect on people. If you're in a large church and no one even knows who you are, that's one thing. But if you're in a smaller context, you can't just rip the band-aid off. It's really not the loving thing to do.  
  
One of the things you have to realize is that lot of times you'll listen to us three and you're thinking that if I could just go to our churches, that things would be better. That's not necessarily true. We've had people come visit my church and they're underwhelmed. It's not mecca. It's not what you think it's going to be.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Nothing magical here.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No. Now to be fair, we do preach the gospel and we do present the means of grace, and that probably is different for a lot of people. They would be encouraged by that. But I think what you need to do is you have to take a fair assessment of where you're at. So if you're in a church where they actually do attempt to preach God's word verse by verse, they're trying to present it from a gracious manner where they're trusting in Christ. They may dip into pietism once in a while. There might be a little bit of a "be like Daniel", but if the overarching message is kindness and mercy that's good leadership but it's not a confessionally Reformed church, and there isn't a confessional Reformed church or a confessional church in your area, and you are feeling like you are being fed Christ in your growing, then I wouldn't leave a good context for is one that you think is better. Because you probably will be sorely disappointed with that circumstance.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Just to add to that, I'm going to assume a couple of things of the listener right now. I'm going to assume that because you're listening to a Christian podcast, you're taking time. I'm going to assume that we're not the only Christian podcast that you're listening to. I'm going to assume that you take these things seriously and that you think about them a lot. I'm also going to assume that you're probably healthily involved in your local church, that your leadership and your leadership knows you.  
  
I think the most important and loving and kind thing that you can do, and I'm just speaking on behalf of pastors right now, as you broach a conversation with them and you just say, "Hey, can we get together? I want to discuss some thoughts. I've been having some feelings. I've been having a theological shift." You want to work through that with them. You want to give them an opportunity to care for and shepherd you.  
  
If you're attending a church that perhaps isn't confessionally Reformed but the leadership of your church cares for you - they love you, they know you, they know your family, they've been there for you - you want to be slow to walk away from that context in a quick manner. You want to be able to say, "We have something that we're going toward because we think it's a better theological fit." You don't want to just rip the band-aid off and walk away in a harmful manner. I would also encourage you to sit down with your leadership and give them an opportunity to hear you out. I think that's the positive thing that I would encourage you with now.  
  
A negative thing that I would discourage is if you're a member at your church, there's a difference if you're in leadership and if you're just kind of a member or attender of the church. (By the way, we encourage church membership. Be a member of your local church.) But if you're a member at your church and you're not in church leadership, the last thing you want to do is be that guy or that gal who constantly sends podcast links and theological articles to your pastor saying, "I want you to think about this. I want you to do this. I want you to preach this way."  
  
In other words, I want to discourage you against trying to reform your church in a vigilante sort of way. where you're not in a position to do so. You're not in a position to walk into an elder meeting and say, "You guys are not preaching Christ. I want you to preach Christ the way that I want you to preach Christ. Here's a podcast that you should listen to then our church is going to begin reforming." Even worse, if you're a small group leader and you're beginning to have differences with your church leadership, you need to be upfront with that right away. The last thing you want to do is create some sort of schism in your church where you have a group of four or five families, and you are saying, "I'm going to do my best to shape these people and it's going to spill over." That's both the positive and the negative things: positive is to have conversations with your leadership in a realistic, honest, loving, kind, and gracious way, and negative is we discourage against trying to reform from the bottom up.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right. Now there's nothing wrong telling your pastors and leaders about a book you are reading or a podcast you are listening to, and asking for their thoughts on it. Because now you're asking for advice. It's different from telling them listen to something and to do things a certain way. It says in Hebrews that you should not make the job of your leaders hard. You need to make it easy for them.  
  
If someone does that to me as a pastor, I lovingly and graciously will say maybe I wasn't very clear in our position of where we're at as a church. I will definitely take that into consideration. We can talk - but I hope there's no confusion here. We've had people who have had to leave because I'm not dispensational - I'm covenantal. This is why we hold to a confession. To speak to this from a personal side, I actually ended up having to leave a church that I was on staff at because I found myself in counseling situations where I knew what I was wanting to say was not the same thing that the leadership would say. Over time, in good conscience, I thought it was going to slip out and then I'm going to be opposing the leader. So I had to go to the leadership and say I think it was better for me to resign because I didn't want to cause conflict or a split in this church. I don't want people to be of Jon and not of the pastor. Yeah. It was painful - it was very painful. It was very hard.  
  
Jimmy was in the same circumstance. I've had elder pastors who have come to me. If you're the senior pastor and you've made the shift, please know that trying to change a congregation that's established is not as easy as you may think. You need to let your elders or your leadership know that you're making this transition because they may not want to make it along with you. It's not fair to drag them through this and split and blow up the church. You may have to come to the conclusion walking away from the church because it's better if they have a pastor that agrees with their doctrinal statement or agrees with their culture. You need to resign and go somewhere else.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We want to be clear that there are distinct moments when it is absolutely clear that you must leave a church. Some of those would be when there are spiritual abuse happening. You're being guilt-tripped and shamed by your church leadership. I would say that is an unhealthy situation.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just to interject, if you're in sin and that's why they're doing it, then you need to repent.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Exactly. If you're shacking it up with your boyfriend and girlfriend and they're coming after you, and you're just saying you're abusing me -  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's not pietism.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: No. You've got another thing coming, my friend.  
  
But if you are being spiritually abused in the sense that you're being guilt-tripped and shamed that everything you do is under a watchful or a suspicious eye, that's unhealthy. If heresy is coming from the pulpit, that is also unhealthy - you need to get out. If a church were beginning to take a really strong liberal political agenda, I would say that is a time to leave. When a church begins to become, in my opinion, pro-homosexuality, I think that is a clear time to leave. There are times when you just need to up and leave. A simple conversation with the leadership, saying, "This is where we're different. Our mind is made up. This is a black and white issue. We need to go."  
  
The other thing I would say is that obviously there are less clear things. There are secondary issues, if you will, that you want to leave over. Let me just make another distinction: if you are a pastor or a staff member at a church, we can have one conversation. If you are a congregant and a church, it is a completely different conversation.  
  
Jon and I both have left churches but we were pastors or staff people at the church. Us leaving the church is going to look different than your everyday congregant because there were things as a congregant that you can plug your nose and partner with. You can say something isn't how you would do it but overall, the pastors are loving, kind, gracious, and they preach the gospel. Perhaps you don't have the same philosophy of ministry, but right now this is good for you and your family. So you can plug your nose and partner with them. But as a pastor or a staff person, if you are beginning to theologically stray from where your church stands, that is a red flag. Particularly if you are not the lead pastor, if you are an associate or student pastor, or perhaps you are some sort of director, you need to be very clear with your lead pastor and your elders to say you're beginning to have a theological shift and you need to work through it. Eventually, when you feel like you can no longer be an agent of unity in your church, it is probably time for you to leave and step down - which is difficult, right? As pastors, it's our livelihood. It's a scary thing. Trust me, I've been there. I left a church with nowhere to go and shoveled snow. It was an odd time of my life. Jon remembers those days. So it's one conversation for a staff person, it's a different conversation for congregants.  
  
The next thing that I would say is to be careful not to over-spiritualize your leaving. Jon, I know you have all sorts of comments on this so I'll shoot it over to you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just to jump back before we go to that, because that's a very important topic, if you disagree with the music or what the pastor wears, or maybe the translation of the Bible, or they're not using liturgy, or even how some ministries are run, just be careful that you're not nitpicking preferences. We need to be kind and gracious.  
  
If you nitpicked your wife or your husband the way in which you nitpick a church, you probably would get divorced because you can find a thousand reasons to be upset and disagree with people that you live with. Just be careful with that. You need to really think through - is this something I must die over? Because I guarantee you that there is not a church out there that's the perfect church you want to go to. They don't exist. As a matter of fact, the three churches that are on this podcast all do things differently. We all have different preferences. As pastors, we like to do things a certain way; it's not that one way is right or wrong. We feel like it's the best thing to do in the culture that we sit in. Let's stay focused on the primaries and the secondaries. Let's be a little bit more gracious and cautious there. Maybe we should do a podcast on what's primary, secondary, and tertiary very soon.  
  
I'll be frank - over spiritualization is something that boils my blood. If a congregant comes in and tries to do this with me, I very kindly and very graciously press them on this because it is an easy card to throw that shuts everyone down. I think it's dangerous.  
  
It goes like this: "Pastor, I just feel like the Lord is leading us in a different direction." The moment you throw that, that's the trump card. Are you going to counteract that? So I graciously and kindly will ask them to explain that to me. What does that look like? How do you know it is God and not just what you want? They can never give me an answer to that. They'll try and say, "I prayed about it. I read the Scriptures." That's great but you are blaming God right now for your decision. You better be sure it's God and not you. How are you sure it's God?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I have a friend that always says, "What the heart wants, the mind justifies. I think that might be a Thomas Cranmer quote. If I had a nickel for every time I heard that the Lord wants someone to do this or that... I'm glad you're trying to use good pious language, and I'm really glad that you are trying to be sensitive to what the Lord desires, but some things you just don't need to over-spiritualize.  
  
This sounds so weird, right? Because you have two pastors talking about one of the most spiritual things on earth, which is the body of Christ, and we're saying don't over-spiritualize it. Here's the thing: you can apply that over spiritualization to anything. Let's say a church is spewing forth heresy and you think the Lord wants you to stay because you can be an agent of change. You can't. God has abandoned that church. He does not honor heresy coming from the pulpit. Leave. Get up and out of there.  
  
On the same token, going to your church pastors and elders and saying that the Lord wants you to leave is going to be really difficult. It's not going to set you up for success. It's going to create a difficult and awkward situation. It is better for you to say, "We have thought about it. We've conversed. We have prayed," you certainly want to kind of soak this in prayer, "and we've sought wisdom from other people. We sense that at this time, between all of those things, it is right and good for us to part ways and for us to consider a different place of worship."  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think that's really good because what's going to happen, especially if you are heavily involved in the church, you are going to have people ask you why you are no longer in that church. If you say that the Lord is just leading you away, you then have to answer why because they're going to be asking why the Lord isn't leading them away. Why would the Lord lead one of His children away and not another of His children away? I think it's a very dangerous stage. You have to be very careful when you use the phrase, "The Lord is leading me". I do believe that God can impress on people's hearts and put desires in our hearts for us to do certain things, but you should be very careful with that phrase. The other thing that I always encourage people with, unless you're in a dangerous circumstance, is that you never leave a church - you never go away from something, you always go towards something. You always move towards a better context or a different context or a context that fits your circumstances.  
  
I have had several people I have had to coach in this, including Jimmy, where you don't want to just leave. What happens is a lot of people leave churches and then never go back for a long period of time - that's worse. It's better for you to stay and at least receive the benefits of the body, as weak as they may be, and again if it's not an abusive circumstance. You always want to move towards something. I think it's easy to say to people and to the congregants, "We feel like this church is the best for our family and where we are at theologically. We do not think this church is wrong, heretical, dangerous, or any of those things, but on a preferential level we feel like this would fit where we feel most comfortable in pursuing our relationship with God." Don't over-spiritualize. Put it on you and name what it is. It is a preferential issue unless it's a flat-out doctrinal issue and you just cannot stay under that teaching. Yeah. Even then you need to be very careful because if people aren't where you're at, you don't need to leave a bombshell behind you and try and drag as many people as you can with you.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: One of the best things that you can do, particularly if you're in a town where you’re going to a different church across town, one of the best things that you can do is leave with peace. Don't damage relationships as much as it depends on you. Don't do it. Speaking from experience here - I know what that is like. You want to be sensitive, you want to be kind, and you want to be gracious.  
  
I like what you said there, Jon, that you have to put it on you. To the person that we're talking to right now, who is listening: your church hasn’t changed, you have. Keep in mind that being angry and saying, "I can't believe you preach this way," you can't be mad at them. They've been doing that all along. You're the one that has changed. You're the one that decided to listen to three knuckleheads talking on a podcast about things like pietism. So it's your fault.  
  
What I'm trying to say tongue-in-cheek is you want to realize that it is going to be good for you to leave peaceably. Most likely you may have children too and so they are going to watch how you leave a church and go to a different body. I remember when we left our church and we started attending elsewhere, we had to explain to our kids why are we going to this different church. We tried to not use over spiritual language; we would just say that this is a better fit for mommy and daddy and our babies right now. This is where it is good for us to be.  
  
Again, don't over-spiritualize and as much as we can stress, don't just walk away from something when you have nowhere to go. Granted, there are caveats to that if it's abuse, heresy, and things like that. Get up and out of there and give us a call. We will do our best to help you out. But if your pastoral team or your elders are caring for you, loving you, calling you, and they're trying to get together with you and understand where you're at, and you decide you can't stay but have nowhere else to go and still leave, that is going to be a lot worse for you. You are going to enter into a hole of despair and jadedness that you did not think you would ever be in.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I've been mentioning this for years, and I know it makes people feel very uncomfortable, but there are sayings that I feel very strongly about, and I think they come from Scripture: when your physical needs become in jeopardy and you're no longer able to provide for the needs of your family, the Bible says that it's worse than being an unbeliever if you aren't willing to work and provide for your family. You and I know people who have had to move locally, they had to move to different states and cities to go find work in whatever field that they were in so that they can provide. What is sad is that we treat our physical needs more important than our spiritual needs. There are people who live in very dry and desert areas, or they'll even move to a location for a great job and cannot find a church within an hour of their location. They're driving an hour, an hour and a half, or two hours to find a church. Once you understand that resting in Christ is the primary focus of the Christian life to where you cannot truly find strength and joy without there being the means of grace, the constant preaching of the word, the table, corporate prayer, that becomes a problem.  
  
When I was in college ministry, I had very strongly told college students to not accept a job unless there is a good church in that area. I can't tell you how many hours I spent with college students on websites trying to find churches for them. To clarify, I don't mean nitpicky in the sense that you find a church exactly where you are; I mean a good solid church that may not even be confessional, but if they are preaching Christ and him crucified, that's fine. Your long-term spiritual health is just as important to the bottom line of your dollar.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Another thing to consider is if you're married, be sensitive to your spouse. Be like-minded about your decision. It’s probably unhealthy for you to wake up one day and say, "Honey, we're not going to go to this church anymore." This is something that my wife and I had to do when I was on my journey into greater Reformed thinking. I had to bring my wife along with me and still do to this day. Help her to understand why it is I'm thinking this way and why we're moving in this direction.  
  
Let me just say this: please do not stay somewhere or go somewhere merely because it is good for your kids. I know I just probably put a dagger in your heart, but if you and your spouse are struggling but you're staying somewhere because it's good for the kids, I'm going to tell you right now that it's not good for the kids. Your kids will bounce back when you move or shift or go somewhere else but you will not bounce back if you are suffering in the pews every Sunday.  
  
I probably just offended a lot of people. I'm sorry.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's hard. You want to do what's right for your kids. You want your kids to be excited about church. But what you are training your children in what church is becomes what they are looking for when they go to college. That's tough. We believe in the sovereignty of God and that God is the one who draws them to Himself, but I think believing children can flounder because they weren't given a true, strong, theological upbringing. They weren't catechized. They weren't taught how to participate in the means of grace and how to receive and strengthen their faith. They were taught how to play games and be entertained and have fun. Those things aren’t wrong and churches can have activities and do things like that. But if we aren't training our children on how to participate and be a part of the local body, it's going to be complicated in the long run.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Certainly there are nuances within that. If you have older children, let's say teenagers, you're going to have to sit down and have conversations with them and invite them to be part of that process. If you have little kids like two or three-years-old, they're not going to remember anything. Don't overthink it. We're not saying you shouldn't consider your kids at all, that they're lifeless beings that live in your home, eat all your food, and require diapers and things like that, you do want to consider them and be sensitive.  
  
At the same time, one of my personal philosophies has been the spiritual health and wellbeing of mom and dad will have its effect on the little kids. It just will. We already live in a society where we base everything we do off of our kids. "We can't go out to eat right now because our kids need a nap." My dad still goes bananas when he hears that from young couples. I remember growing up and we would go to somebody's house and my dad would say, "If you're tired, go take a nap in the corner." Just figure it out. We already base a lot of our life on our children, but when it comes to the life and health and resting in Christ and being sitting under the means of grace, mom and dad need that. They need a place where they can rest in Christ and the children will know that and there will be a difference in the home because of that.  
  
So we're coming up on the members' podcast. Jon, you mentioned it before and I'm going to throw the bomb at you right now. For our members, what I'd like to talk about is what are some primary and secondary issues when it comes to leaving the church? We might even disagree on a couple of these. I'm a little excited.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you are interested in trying to find a church, we don't really have a resource yet. It is something we are praying about. We need finances to be able to afford to put that together since it's a pretty big undertaking. For those of you that don't know, we have a very active Facebook group. I think there are over 1,300 people in there. They're great lively discussions. It's really designed to help ask questions and dialogue about the podcast, but there are often people who will say where they live and ask if we know of any churches in the area. That might be the best resource right now to do that. There are 1,300 people in there that are all over the world and in the United States. They may have a better shot at knowing than I would. So I would encourage you to possibly go there first.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Thank you for taking the time today to listen to this podcast. We realize that this is such a sensitive issue when you consider where you are going to put down roots in a church. We know it's difficult. It takes time. It takes a lot of conversations. We cannot reiterate enough to be patient, to be prayerful, to be gracious, and to be conversational with the current leadership of your church.  
  
Thank you in particular to our members who support us and make podcasts like these possible. We look forward to continuing this conversation over in the members' podcast. If you want to learn more about what it means to be a member and all of the benefits therein, please log onto wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and you can check out some other resources we have available there.  
  
Members, we will see you over in the members' podcast. Thank you for listening.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/)

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### MEMBERS: Drowning in Evangelicalism? (Transcript)

*Published: July 1, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-drowning-in-evangelicalism-transcript*
*Tags: Church Growth Movement, Confessional theology, Confessions, Evangelicalism, Legalism, Pietism, Reformed Theology*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-drowning-in-evangelicalism/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Thank you for supporting our ministry. I'm going to go ahead and get us right into this so that we don't waste the time that we have. Let's talk about this massive shift from the evangelical system to a confessionally Reformed place of resting. How do we help the listener if they're new to Confessional Theology, or even if they've been in it for a while? How do we help word this for people who are trying to help transition? It's relevant for both those who are in confessional theology and those who are transitioning into it.  
  
Justin Perdue: If I'm speaking to the person that is new to Confessional Theology, or maybe isn't even in a confessional environment yet, at the risk of sounding kind of snarky and sarcastic, I would say to you that if you’re exhausted by the new movements that come every 18 months within evangelicalism, then come on over. The water is nice here. If you're tired of being told that this is the new thing that you need to be about as a Christian, and you're thinking, "I can't keep up with this. Last year it was this and this year it's this. It's always something that needs to be my focus, and another thing that I need to be measuring myself against. I'm not good enough," then come over to a confessional perspective where the message honestly has not changed for centuries and centuries and centuries.  
  
I'm mindful of Ephesians 4 where Paul talks about maturity and not being blown around by every wind of doctrine. In a confessional environment, that confessional framework protects us from being blown around by every passing fad. We look at those things and the other things that just eat up the Christian blogosphere and we're insulated from it. Sometimes we address a little bit of it on Theocast just to be able to speak to our listeners and where they are. But we, as pastors, don't get wrapped up in a lot of that. This, for me, is freeing because pastoral ministry is hard enough for me anyway. I can't imagine trying to be a pastor and dealing with every single new thing because just living the Christian life, trusting Christ, preaching Christ, and loving the saints is plenty to have on our plates. If Jesus tells us, "Come to me and I'll give you rest," it's grounded in not only the fact that he is our peace and he has done everything we need, it's also this deep and simple call to a simple kind of life. We don't need to overcomplicate the matter, which happens all the time in the evangelical world. So I find Confessional Christianity to be a very refreshing, simple kind of life because frankly, life's hard enough anyway. We don't need to complicate it.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Here's the other thing I would say to the person that's going to make the transition from an evangelical context to a confessional context. One of the things you need to realize is that you are going to bring with you a whole trailer load of baggage from an evangelical context - and it is going to take a while.  
  
There are still mental parts of myself in hidden corners of my heart that still want to grip to the evangelical way of life. What I mean by that is this: there are parts of me that still want to determine my own growth. They still want to see that my own quality of the Christian life is still contingent upon my quiet times, my personal prayer - which are not bad things; they're very good things. However, those things need to be killed over the long haul. Often, when you make a jump to a confessional context, it's similar to when somebody first becomes a Calvinist: they can become almost intolerable.  
  
What I would say to the person that's jumping over to a confessional context is to learn the air around you for a little bit, relax, and realize that you're going to go through something that is almost like a withdrawal. You're going to feel like you're missing something or you're not doing enough. What we're saying is that is the point. It just looks a lot different than what you are used to.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You hear us using the word confessional and you're probably thinking why it is so different. We can't just say evangelicalism is bad; we have to tell you why.  
  
As human beings, we have this hunger. Over enough time, you get hungry and thirsty and you start craving for what your body needs. If you go long enough not having a healthy diet, your body is going to start really telling you something's wrong. Then you experience something that's healthy and your body says yes. When it comes down to the spiritual diet of a believer, you've been told this is the way you must live. According to Scripture, what we are saying is that the Bible is pushing you towards a diet that is not based upon self-improvement. The push of the confessions is that the way in which you live, the Christian life is different than anything you've ever experienced, and the only way I can describe it is that you are constantly told to feed yourself on Christ and him crucified; it is always done outside of yourself, apart from your actions.  
  
I know that's hard because people think there are things that they have to do as a response. As you are fed and nourished, you will naturally produce fruit; you don't produce that fruit. This is why they call it the fruit of the Spirit - because it comes from the Source. Your entire world is turned upside down to where you were told to produce everything and look inside yourself on how to produce it. What Confessional Theology does, if you read the confessions, is that they will teach you that Scripture, by and large, is pushing you towards feeding on Christ and finding your sustenance by receiving Christ - not by you serving Christ.  
  
Here's an example: what historical Reformed confessionals will teach you is that the primary point of the Bible is the redemption of sinners; it is a rich story of redemption from beginning to end. It's really easy to see this; just read the first three chapters of Genesis. God sets up a perfect world, and then Adam and Eve destroy that world. God's response to Adam and Eve is to restore what they destroyed. It's the promise of the Messiah who will come and make all things new from that moment on.  
  
The Bible is a story. It's a narrative. 3% of your Bible is instructions for what you need to do, 97% of your Bible is for you to look and trust on the promises of God, believe in Him, and find your joy and your hope believing His promises. That's what Confessional Theology is; it teaches you how to read your Bible and live the Christian life in such a way that you find your sustenance on Christ and not what you do.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's really critical and freeing for us to understand what John was just talking about - that the food and nourishment of the Christian life is Christ. It's Christ for us; it's his atoning work for us, his satisfaction for our sins, his holiness, and his righteousness for us. That's the lifeblood of the Christian life. It's what sustains us in the Christian life. To use the illustration of even how our bodies work in this kind of physical life that we live right now, there are all kinds of things that we go about doing as human beings. We have to be fed in order to have the energy and the ability to do things. The Christian life is the same way: if we're not fed the food of Christ all the time, we starve spiritually. We actually end up killing the whole thing before it even gets started; the train is derailed before it leaves the station if we're only talking about what we need to do and the things that we need to be concerning ourselves with in terms of our duty, obligation, and our performance. If we're not being fed real food, we're never going to be able to do those things anyway.  
  
The food of the Christian life is Christ. The focus of every service is to receive Christ in the word in the Lord's Table, to sing of Christ in song, to pray in Christ's name to the Father, and to bring our requests and confessions to Him and, and to be edified, built up, and sustained in the faith so that we might love neighbor and do good works. Confessional Theology holds a very Christ-centered perspective, and our duty and responsibility are only seen as the backdrop with Christ in the foreground.  
  
We say these things all the time on Theocast, but it's a paradigm shift that is very freeing and very life-giving for those of us who have walked from where we once were. We were disenchanted, we were struggling, and we were discouraged all the time. Now we still get discouraged and we still struggle, but in the midst of all that, we are being pointed to Christ and we're pointing others to him as well.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: In an evangelical context, one of the things that I would say is subjective realities feed objective realities: what I feel, how I process, what I'm going through necessarily means that this must be true about me. If I'm sinning, if I'm struggling, or if I'm doing something that I thought Christians don't do, then it must mean something greater about myself as a Christian. In a confessional context, objective realities always inform subjective feelings. Martin Luther liked to say, "When I look at myself, I don't understand how I can be saved. When I look at Christ, I don't understand how I could not." That's a great summarization of what it means to live within a confessional context of the church.  
  
My goal as a pastor is to push my people, not within themselves, but rather to pull them out of themselves - to take their eyes off of their context, off of their situation, off of their sin - and to place them on Christ. Over the course of a lifetime, week-to-week, it's going to be difficult perhaps for me to see this drastic change. It may come, and praise the Lord if it does, but rather we want to keep our heads down and keep our eyes focused on Christ. Maybe every few years we look back and see how faithful God has been to us, and I want to push them out of themselves and onto these objective realities of you in Christ and him crucified and what he has done. At our church, we like to emphasize not what we do for Christ but rather what has been finished on our behalf in Christ. That is the key difference.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Right before we do our corporate prayer of confession on Sundays, we say that we believe everyone is in equal need of grace, and that God does not look at someone say they have done well. You are either in need of grace or you are holy.  
  
I found this helpful little quote from Spurgeon as a reference to the confessions. I think it's a good explanation of what we're trying to get at. He says this in reference to the 1689, "This little volume is not issued as an authoritative rule, or code of faith, whereby you are to be fettered, but as an assistance to you in controversy, a confirmation in faith, and a means of edification in righteousness . . . Cleave fast to the Word of God which is here mapped out for you."  
  
Evangelicals can look, by and large, if a church is Christian or a cult. They can tell by the name. If they go to the website and look at some of the ways it's designed, they'll know if it's a cult or if it's a Christian church. Then you have the statement of faith. If you guys noticed, the statement of faith in evangelicalism has gotten smaller and smaller to where you can put it on a 3x5 card now. The statement of faith basically is, "I believe in the Trinity and I believe Jesus is God." That's about it. There's no structure.  
  
When you show up, you have no idea what the pastor is going to give you. It could be his thoughts about marriage, parenting, or the government. Who knows? In Confessional Theology, you know what you're going to get because it's been mapped out for you: this is what we hold to, this is what we believe, and this is what we're going to feed you, and you can go and read it. If you were to read it, it would probably take you two to three hours if you are a slow reader.  
  
The point of it is that what's great about the confessions is that they are constantly pointing you to Scripture so that you understand this is where we get this from. If you go to a website and they say the statement of faith, that's their confession, I don't know who wrote it. Most people steal it from each other. One of my favorite things to do is to look at a confession of faith, copy and then paste it in Google to see where they got it from, because they got theirs from somebody. It's not very often someone writes their own.  
  
Justin Perdue: You could read the 1689 in an hour to two. It's 15,000 words and I think the average reading speed is 200 to 300 words a minute. Anyway, that's neither here nor there.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The point of it is that it's not this massive document.  
  
Justin Perdue: This is just very unfiltered, just me to you: if you have struggled and wrestled with what you've experienced in the church, and you're burned, jaded, discouraged, and you're disenchanted, my word to that is there is another way. A lot of times what I've observed in many people, and we have a number of people like this in our church who are recovering from the wounds and have gone everywhere trying to find something real, I think the response sometimes is to look around at the church and think this is a joke. They think it is an absolute circus and none of it is authentic, and none of it is legit. Again, either this is whack or it didn't work for me - or whatever it may be. You basically do the throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bath-water thing. You burn the whole village down and you just leave it altogether. Then you go the route of who knows what. There's a reason why there are things like the Bad Christian Podcast, for example, because we all identify with that because we're not good Christians, the church is crazy, and the evangelical church is often stupid. I don't know what to do here and I don't feel like I can find people who resonate with me in my experience at all.  
  
What we're saying is, again, you're not crazy and you're not alone. Brother or sister, there is another way. You don't need to abandon the faith, once for all, delivered to the saints. What you need to do is come into a context where we are clinging to that faith, and it's about the objective realities of Christ and the gospel. We can live an honest life with each other, confessing sin, pointing each other to Jesus, and praying and striving together for God's sanctifying work to be done in us. It's not this facade, and it's not the plastic people like what Jon referenced before. We're not patting each other on the back because we're sinning, we're not celebrating sin. It's not a competition about who is the most jacked up. We're just acknowledging the fact that we're sinners, we need Jesus, and we're on our way to the Celestial City. So we pray for all of you that you can find a confessional context where you can live life this way.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As we close this down, we want to encourage you with two things. First of all, if you've not downloaded our free book, _Faith vs. Faithfulness_, we go into confessionalism a bit more there. Secondly, we are going to warn you that not all churches that are confessional will hold to their confession. There are times when the church can sway and move from it. We've had this experience where Theocast listeners will go in and their experience is not what we're talking about. So just a heads up.  
  
If you are a wanting to know if there's a confessional church in your area, we don't have this resource yet. We're praying that through donations, eventually we'll be able to set up to help people identify what a good church is in their area. My only recommendation would be going to the Facebook group and put in your city there. People have been able to find churches there, and that might be one way for you to do it.  
  
We thank you for supporting our ministry. We've got more and more coming your way. We've got a class coming your way on Covenant Theology. We're working on producing it so stay tuned for that. We're excited about a new format of being able to do that so as soon as it's available, we'll send that to you.  
  
Our book should be available by now. Go get our book on assurance, and that's a great way to share this theology with people. Buy multiple copies and hand them out. We hope that it's a blessing to you. We'll see you next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/drowning-in-evangelicalism-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/drowning-in-evangelicalism/)

---

### Drowning in Evangelicalism? (Transcript)

*Published: July 1, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/drowning-in-evangelicalism-transcript*
*Tags: Church Growth Movement, Confessional theology, Confessions, Evangelicalism, Legalism, Pietism, Reformed Theology*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/drowning-in-evangelicalism/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today we're going to have a conversation that many of you are going to agree with. There is something wrong with the modern Christian movement, or what we would say is the evangelical movement; something feels off. If you feel this way, this conversation might be helpful for you.  
  
We will talk about a lot of the dangerous movements that happen within the broader evangelical church. Where did it come from? Is there a solution? Do we dump the whole thing or is there another option? What we would point you to is a reformed confessional option.  
  
In the members' podcast, we look back to the historic teachings of Christianity that have been handed down to us to explain where rest and hope can be found. We hope you enjoy the conversation.  
  
Justin Perdue: Today we are going to discuss the fact that nothing happens in a vacuum and that we are all products of the culture in which we live in. We're all influenced by things that we're not aware of. The point of the conversation today is to hopefully be of help to the broader evangelical movement out there, or even to the Calvinistic evangelical as well, in identifying some of the things that have produced the evangelical culture in which we live in, and in which many of us have been raised and have cut our teeth spiritually and theologically speaking.  
  
The illustration we'd like to use a lot of times is the one of fish and water: the fish lives in the water, swims in the water, and honestly is not really aware of the water itself. What we want to do is help the fish see and understand the water in which it's swimming. Our hope is to give a little bit of backfill in terms of how we even got here, and what is it that has produced evangelicalism with respect to history.  
  
We also want to identify some of the big things that are a part of the evangelical culture that may or may not be biblical as they are just cultural. A lot of times we assume these things are in the Bible because we have never known anything other than them.  
  
We want to take a serious look at some of those things and come alongside the evangelical in a kind way to say to them, as we often do, that if they are seeing and feeling these things, they're experiencing this tension, they're disenchanted, struggling, and frustrated, that they are not crazy and they are not alone. For me, the Lord primed the pump for years to bring me to the place where I am in now.  
  
I'm mindful of a number of podcasts, writings, and other media that's out there that is basically just an out and out rebellion against the evangelical culture because they've been so burned by it. That's not what we want to do. We want to come alongside and be a little bit more helpful, maybe more charitable, and not burn the whole thing down. Rather, we want to identify the things that aren't as biblical and that are more culturally situated.  
  
That's the best way I know to frame the conversation. Let's try to help some people out there.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There have been quite a few people who have identified this problem. For a person who has been brilliant at this and really did a fine job, unfortunately he just threw the whole thing out. Rob Bell is brilliant mind, a brilliant communicator, and he was able to pull out all the strings meticulously. Before you know it, all of evangelicalism was unraveled and he pulled a large following with him. Now I'm not sure what he believes in - if he's a deist or what. We too want to pull out all these strings and help you dismantle and identify where you can say where something isn't right.  
  
There are unfortunately people who are over it and they walk away. I have friends who are in these circumstances where they just walked away from evangelicalism; they walked away from Christianity. I have a lot of college students whom I used to help think through as I was ministering to them and they've done the same. Then you have those who remain but they stay frustrated. They're constantly trying to figure out why they feel that way. They know they can't walk away from Christ because they love Christ. At the same time, how do they identify what’s going on? As Justin said, they don't have a category to place it in because no one has pulled them out to show them the context.  
  
One of the big keys in this is becoming self-aware and identifying what's going on in your current context. This was big for me when I first started to evaluate my own Christian life. The history behind evangelicalism has turned the entire Christian world in on itself; it has turned it into where everything is about the self-made Christian. They'll give you a thousand different things to be a better dad, to be a better mom, to be a better whatever. Everything becomes about self-improvement. Everything becomes self-focused: from books to church services to music, everything is about how I can become better. The Me Song Movement back in the eighties and nineties is just exhausting to think about - there were so many songs about what I'm going to do or it's all about me and my worship for God. The foundation of the evangelical movement has been this me-centered, me-focused movement.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: This is where you really have to ask the question. When you come to this place and you've felt these things for a while where you've begun to feel, in a sense, lost in the crowd, you start asking the question, "Is there another way?" But you're also fearful to ask that question because it's like you are bucking against the status quo. People look at you funny when they hear you ask questions like, "Is there another way that the Christian life is experienced?"  
  
I remember my own journey of coming out of evangelicalism and looking at the Christian life from a more historically reformed mindset. The things that I was saying and the ways that I began to think about piety, holiness, church, preaching, sacraments, and the like had people looking at me like I was nuts. One of the questions I always got is, "Are you going to become Catholic?" Or something like that.  
  
Justin, you've said this before. The way that we are talking now is actually very old. It's very historic. So it's very easy to feel that way - to feel like there's something's wrong with me.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's a pop tart reality. We talk in such a way that it's so old, it sounds new. I'm referring to that old school commercial where they say it's so hot that they're cool, so cool that they're hot.  
  
I think it matters to have the conversation about history and about what produced evangelicalism. I mean it to be humbly put forth. I'm not trying to act like the three of us have it all figured out, but I would wager that the vast majority of evangelicals have no real idea of how we got here in terms of what is it that produced the evangelical church in America, historically speaking. More specifically, we are thinking about the history of interpretation, the rule of faith, and the theological ebbs and flows and movements that have led us to this place.  
  
Without going way down the road with some of this, we can't talk about evangelicalism, which is a uniquely and American thing, without using two words and I'll try to briefly define them. The first one is positivism, which we talk about all the time here. It is a hyper-focus on the Christian and the interior of the Christian life. It's very subjective; it's all about you, your affections for God, your disciplines, your performance, your obedience, et cetera. There's that hyper-focus on the individual and on the believer. The other thing that has really contributed to where we are is something we would call revivalism, and we have to state that the evangelical church in America is pietistic and revivalistic at heart.  
  
In terms of revivalism, it's about several things: it's about moral transformation, personal improvement, and change. It is also about this conversion moment: we need people to make decisions for Christ. Those two theological movements, pietism and revivalism, form and shape the American church - broadly speaking.  
  
This has all kinds of fallout for where we find ourselves today. I will start with this because I think it matters... and I'm speaking to the broad evangelical population out there. I think that most Christians in America assume that the Sunday morning gathering is really for the purpose of bringing non-Christians in. It's like the purpose is essentially to have a stationary Billy Graham crusade: "Let's make it as attractive as we can to the non-Christian and see as many people make decisions for Christ every Sunday as possible." The thought that we would herald the gospel primarily to the saints, with the understanding that the non-Christian would be present, is absolutely foreign to most people. Most people would think that's bananas. They would wonder why they need to do it that way. I think that demonstrates a number of things that we've misunderstood about what the focus of the church and what the focus of the Sunday morning gathering is; it's not so much for the equipping of the saints and the sustaining work of God through word and sacrament, and through which he imparts faith as well. It's aimed to bring people in and make them think about how they can live better lives now in Christ - they have to move on to that reality.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When you look at the early church in Acts, then you read the New Testament epistles and even look at church history, the church services primarily the saints - it's a family gathering, and it's for the sake of building one another up. You then get influenced by revivalism and the tent meeting movement, and the church service became the evangelistic program. So revivalism and tent meetings became so famous and popular because there was no entertainment in the culture. You didn't have TV, radio was on the movement, but revivalism threw up this tent where you can go hear a very dynamic, passionate person preach. That influenced preachers in a way where they wanted to have that in their own church services. Church services became revivalistic and all of a sudden, instead of teaching and training and shepherding people, it became about how many conversions they can get. It became all about transformation and getting people to make a decision.  
  
This is still true today. You look at these large evangelical churches, not all of them, but by and large a lot of them are giving away TVs, becoming all about the music and the feel, and making sure there’s a proper children's ministry because they want to draw in the unbeliever. The believer who's in that context is so anemic and is so weak that they, spend their whole lives thinking it is normal to live in a very shallow... when I mean shallow, I mean the sermons and the fellowship are because if you start talking about deep struggles, that's going to scare people away.  
  
Justin Perdue: Basically, it has become all about having a heck of a time in Jesus name on Sunday morning. It has become all about the energy and how it needs to be Epic every week. Every Sunday has got to be better than the Sunday before. It's a treadmill. I could say a lot.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: To stay within this but shift lanes a little bit, if you were to ask a modern evangelical the ways that a Christian grows in their faith, most likely the different barometers and the different things that they would say would be their personal devotion time, their prayer closet, and by going to the church service. Those are the primary ways that it goes, right? It has to be on a high energy. Also, they say that the way you really know if you are growing as a Christian is you ask yourself this question: how do I feel about Jesus? What is my overall disposition and feelings about Christ? That's not to say that there is no room for feelings - so don't hear us say that what we're pushing is Christian stoicism - that's not at all what we're saying. What we have been trying to say is that there has been this massive individualization of the Christian life - that everything within the Christian life needs to be about the individual and how they are pursuing their own holiness apart from the local body.  
  
Now we begin to shift a little bit and ask what is the better way. What is the antidote to the questions and the sickness that people feel? So I don't know if you guys want to talk about that a little bit.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think you've identified something that's important, Jimmy. I made a wager earlier about the fact that most evangelicals don't know where it came from. I would also wager that most evangelicals assume that the real Christian life happens when we're alone versus when we're gathered - in the context of the gathered church, with the ministry of the word and the ministry of the sacraments, which is the historical and reformed understanding.  
  
Jimmy, you have said this before, and we have talked about this on Theocast before, that the new sacraments of the evangelical movement are spiritual disciplines: quiet times, prayer closet, devotional time, and the worship experience that needs to be really hyped up. It's all about how we feel - we evaluate everything based upon how we feel. My quiet time becomes only useful to me if I felt really good about what I read in the Scripture or if it moved me in a certain way. My worship experience is only good or meaningful if I felt a certain way. It's almost like we're chasing these emotional highs in order to assess our lives spiritually.  
  
Like you said, Jimmy, we're not saying that emotions are bad. They're good, but we're acknowledging the fact that they vacillate and they ebb and flow like crazy. I am not the first to make this illustration. I've heard better preachers than me say these kinds of things. You go to an evangelical service and it's almost like it's a concert or a show: everything looks perfect, the music is banging, there are a lot of visual presentation, and the countdown happens and somebody grabs the mic with some grandiose gesture and says, "Hey, good morning! How are you all feeling?" Okay, what am I supposed to do with that? Because honestly, I got into a fight with my wife in the car on the way over, we spilled our coffee going through, and our kids are an absolute disaster. How do I feel? Pretty lousy, actually. What do you have for me? That's a common experience for so many people in the evangelical church. It promotes dishonesty. I almost feel like I've got to put on the face and the facade and construct that thing because we're all supposed to be hyped up for Jesus.  
  
But what if we're not? Maybe we come in here struggling today. Do I fake it until I make it? Because if this is what the Christian life is supposed to be, we conclude either one of two things: if the Christian life is all about hype and experience, and I'm geeked up for Jesus and I'm doing swell, then one, either this is all just a farce and it's not legit, or two, it is legit but it just didn't work for me. So, I'm done - this is where a lot of people end up.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In our church context, the first time they come to a women or men's Bible study and they're from the broader evangelical context where it's all about the presentation... I remember the first time I heard the song _Stained Glass Masquerade_ by Casting Crowns with the whole happy plastic people - that's how people feel. They have to step out of their car, put on the fake plastic Christianity where it's all squeaky and polyester, then you get back in the car and it all comes off. Their first experience of a raw community is one where they come in and it's all about being honest, it's not an airing of dirty laundry, and they are safe here to admit that they do not have it all together, that they do not have the power to accomplish this Christian life on their own. Then they see grown men who are strong and firm; there are very strong personalities clinging tightly to Jesus Christ, and it's an experience that just transforms them.  
  
This is where I would add to what Justin and Jimmy are saying. Within the evangelical world, there's this progression. You get drawn in through the light show: my life is not what it should be but Christianity can make me happy. Then you come in and now you're given next steps to follow. That's how you're trained to interact with not only the church service but also your Bible. We would love for and encourage everyone here to indulge in God's word as much as you're capable of and as much as you want, but the danger is - and I know I'm going to get myself in trouble for saying this - the danger is you actually cause more problems indulging the word of God inappropriately than you would if you knew how to read it appropriately. Because you read your Bible as if it's the next step, as if it's your handbook for life, and it is an evangelical fallacy to think that the Bible was designed for you to try and determine what it is that you are going to do next as a Christian.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: The awkward elephant in the room is evangelicalism is perfectly designed to run like a business that needs to grow. So often what happens within these contexts is that decisions are made for Christ. We need to on-ramp them into a greater life within the church. Typically what that means is greater volunteerism within the life of the organization. So when we have a service that has 900 people coming through the doors, we need bodies of people to make sure that this machine moves.  
  
I'm sure there are people thinking that I'm really jaded, but one of the things that is often lacking within the evangelical culture is this mindset of how maybe being this large isn't sustainable. Let's get these 40 people healthy so let's send them out and plant a church. Often that mindset does not go because they have to keep the machine moving, they have to keep the mothership afloat. Often what's used as a tactic is - and you guys have talked about this a lot - the fear-based and legal preaching that you have to live, think, feel, and do life this way, otherwise, you're going to make a wreck of yourself, abandon the faith, and walk away. That just exhausts people. It crushes and exhausts people.  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to respond to a couple of things. Jon, you were talking about the danger that comes from reading your Bible by yourself, misunderstanding it, and going places with it that you should not go. This is why you need pastors. The Lord Jesus has given pastors and teachers to the church for a reason. That doesn't mean that you can't profit from reading your Bible by yourself - it just means that you need to be doing that in the context of a healthy local church, where you're getting good teaching so that you are being taught how to understand your Bible.  
  
Secondly, this is why it matters that we do theology corporately, not individually. This is part of being a confessional Christian as we look back through history and understand that the same Holy Spirit has been at work in the church for 2000 years. So we want to stand on the shoulders of saints who have come before us and have believed these central doctrinal truth claims about Scripture. We're going to believe these things and do theology corporately, not just off by ourselves and take the Bible to mean whatever we think it means, that the piece that you mentioned, Jimmy, about how the evangelical church is a machine or a business that needs to grow. It's almost viewed that way.  
  
I think evangelicalism too, because of the revivalistic pieces, is inherently pragmatic. It is results-driven and it is results-oriented. In the Second Great Awakening, which happened in the middle of the 1800s, something called the new measures developed where we are going to do whatever we need to do in order to see the results produced that we want to see. We need to see people make decisions for Christ, we want to see lives transformed and changed, and so now we're going to engineer the methods and the measures to produce those results. And because the results are good, it justifies the means through which we would achieve them.  
  
I think that's a backwards way of thinking. Whereas we would say is the Scripture is very clear that the church has grown and the Christian life is lived and sustained by the preaching of the word of Christ, as well as by the right administration of the sacraments of the Lord's Table and baptism in the context of the gathered church.  
  
That's how we want to move forward in not only seeing people come to Christ, but how we want to see them grow in the faith. What ends up happening is a lot of damage that result when we try to tweak the measures and the means in order to achieve the result; we try to reverse engineer it. A lot of the damage and the fallout of that is what we see in the evangelical world broadly.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would even say that this is how we evaluate a successful church where successful churches are the ones that are big and growing. The church planner who had 400 on his first service, and then by the next year he had a thousand, the belief is that this guy has got it on - and people are attracted to that success. We read reviews on Amazon because we want something that's successful. We are attracted to big, better, and we want something that has movement to it. We all have been a part of this. We all want to be on the ground floor where something's moving. It's pragmatism on steroids: we're going to do what works.  
  
What is sad is that the Bible tells you what works as well as the measures of success, yet they are looking nothing like what the moderate evangelical church looks like. If you think about it this way, the apostle Paul says that some people plant and some water - Paul planted, Apollos watered, but it is God who gives the increase. The way you measure a successful church is whether they are administering what God has instituted them to administer. Are they loving and caring for one another? Are they functioning as a church should function? That's the measure of success. But how we always measure it are budget, numbers, social media, book sales, etc. It is nauseating because you see people who are drowning.  
  
The whole reason - and this is where we're going to try to make a shift - is that some of you are probably feeling deep despair, and while it seems we're jerks and we love to punch people in the nose, we are actually speaking as ones who came from this movement. Every single one of us was drowning in this movement. We all got to a point where we put our hands up and said enough is enough. We're not doing this anymore. Every single one of us ended up going back in history asking where things went wrong. Where did it go off the rails?  
  
During the Reformation, the Reformers were saying the same thing. They have gone off the rails and were so entrapped in legalism. The Catholic Church became a part of the culture - if you wanted to be identified by your city, county, or state, you had to be baptized in the Catholic Church. It's how they took census so the whole system got turned on its head.  
  
Let's talk a little bit about how it is it that we can help people transition. We're not just going to pull the threads and pull this thing apart, and we're not over here saying we have the better system; we don't have the better system. We're hailing a system that is, I believe, biblical and based on years of history of men reshaping and reforming this from a biblical perspective.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We've mentioned the word pietism - it's helpful to remember where that also came from. Keep in mind that there's a difference between pietism and piety. Piety is good because we are for personal holiness; we are for repenting of our sin, placing our hope, faith, and trust in Christ and allowing his means to sanctify us in this life. We are for that. On the other hand, pietism is this hyper-focus on the self. It comes from this movement were what you had going on in the Reformation was a lot of this high-level scholastic debates and conversations happening. A lot of it wasn't trickling down and reaching the laity. Particularly, the German Lutheran Pietist movement in Lutheran circles began forming these groups - Jakob Spener was really the head of that. The question became less about whether one is sound theologically, and more about whether one is saved. That became the question. This isn't necessarily horrible in and of itself but as with anything, when you take it to the nth degree, it begins to shift and morph into a monster that nobody ever intended it to be. What happened within pietism is the question of whether one is saved became the air in which evangelicalism came to breathe, that it was born into.  
  
Evangelicalism is a pietist movement. We have to keep that in mind. Once I began to realize that, and once I began to see that the "evangelical system" is built to suppress me - and I know that sounds so drastic but the evangelical system was really built to constantly drive me to myself and batter my assurance - once I began to see that, I began to think that there has to be another way. There has to be a different way because this cannot be a sustainable course of the Christian life. That was when I began to study deeper, more historical Reformed Theology. These creeds and these confessions, whether it was the Westminster Confession, the Belgium Confession, the 1689 London Baptist Confession, or even the 39 Articles of Christian Religion, once I began to look into these things I saw that there is a whole different approach to piety, the Christian life, and the church that had been rocked for me. One of the first things that I would encourage somebody is to read those historical documents.  
  
The Reformation, dare I say, is more than the five points of Calvinism. It is more than the five solas.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Jimmy, you dropped a really hard pill for some people to swallow. The Westminster to me, when I was growing up as a Baptist, was a step to the side of Roman Catholicism that I felt they just cleaned up a little bit. I thought they took out some of the crazies but it's still Roman Catholicism, or they are still adhering to a document and system rather than the Bible being the sole authority for all that they do. That was just my own ignorance. Evangelicalism is mostly ignorant of Christian history. They have broad categories but they don't really understand the distinction of what's going on.  
  
If you're new to this podcast, it is very important for you to understand that we are not asking you to admit yourself to an authority that is above Scripture. The word “confess” literally means to explain. I am explaining what I believe the Bible says. Every single person has a confession. For instance, if I ask you who Jesus Christ is, what you tell me is your confession. You're about to confess to me who you think Jesus is.  
  
The danger is that if you don't use history and you don't understand Scripture, if you think you're the only one who can rightly abide by the word of God and has the only capacity to do that, you're going to teach heresy. Confessions are the history of what Christians have believed throughout the ages. Thankfully, during the Reformation, men decided that for the sake of education, for the sake of clarity, for the unbelieving church and to help distinct themselves from false religions and the Roman Catholic Church, they would go on and document what they believe the Bible says. So if you look at a confession, it's not a very thick document because what they're trying to do is present the Bible and its main points, and share that historically, this is what Christians have believed. The authority is God's word; the explanation of what God's word is the confession.  
  
Justin Perdue: To confess, to explain, or even to say together what we believe - that's what we're pointing people to. I think a big issue in evangelicalism - and I'm going to paint this picture a little bit and then transition us to the confessional place where we are - one of the issues is that evangelicalism is built on what could be called a theology of glory, meaning it is about the fact that we in Christ Jesus are now going onward and upward; we're constantly improving. It's like ours is now a position of strength, and this manifests itself in all kinds of ways. Some of it are very practical: how to have a better marriage, how to have a better handle on your finances, etc. But then there's also this mindset of you being a conqueror in the Lord Jesus, there's an abuse of Philippians 4 where it says you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. There are all of those kinds of stuff that are sometimes sentimental and sometimes just flat out ridiculous on the face of it. And I think what ends up happening in that culture where we're always improving, it's always onward and upward, is that the people who are pretty self-aware are looking at themselves and are thinking, "I am not there. I am struggling like crazy. My life is hard. My sin is kicking my backside. On the regular, I'm not doing well spiritually. I don't feel like my affections are where they need to be. I want to love God with all my heart, but I can't seem to pull that off. I want to love my neighbor, but I can't seem to pull that off either. I'm struggling." Then we look around and we think, "Okay, if I'm struggling this way then I have to assume that other people are, too. But everybody's acting like they're doing great. What is going on?" You end up with so many people who are discouraged and jaded because they assess the church landscape and think, "Okay, Jesus is legit. I can't walk away from Christ even if I wanted to, but the church has nothing for me. The Christian life just seems impossible. It seems absurd. I don't even know what to do with any of this stuff." I think the way that we would frame it here at Theocast, and I know we do this in our local churches, is that  
  
Christ is our righteousness. He is our surety. He is our assurance. He's our peace. He's our hope. He's all of these things. Now let's be honest about our struggles and sins, and point one another to Christ in the word, in the sacrament, and in our corporate witness to each other. Let's lock arms together as we trust Christ and rely upon the Spirit to sanctify us.  
  
The way that we aim to do this at my church at CBC is we set the tone from the jump. We welcome people to service after we have a song to herd everybody into the room. We welcome people to church by acknowledging the reality: "You've come here today. We're not sure how you're feeling. We're not sure how you're doing. If you're like the rest of us, you've probably had some good things happen this week. You probably also had some really hard stuff happen this week. And if you're honest, your heart is an absolute mess. You're distracted and you're struggling as you come in this morning. We have no hope in and of ourselves: we're weak, we're inadequate, we're insufficient, but we have come because Christ is our sufficiency and he has saved sinners, even such as us. Welcome to church." Now we can actually look to Christ and have something to sing about, rejoice about, confess together, and comfort one another with. That's the confessional perspective. It's just a much more honest approach to the Christian life and to church. It's more self-aware. That's not to sound arrogant; it's just true. We're looking to the truths that are tested by centuries of time and we cling to those together; ultimately those truths center on Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As we get ready to transition over to our members' podcast, I want to conclude with this and really set up the next conversation. The hard part about all of this is the now-what moment. We've identified this, but now what?  
  
Hebrews 12 has been very helpful for me. The writer of Hebrews says you need to set aside any sin that's weighing you down. Where does he point you? He says you need to look to the founder, the author and the finisher of your faith, the beginning and the end, the one who has saved you. The Christian life is about pointing you towards Christ. Unfortunately, evangelicalism is about pointing you towards you to improve yourself before Christ.  
  
What we're going to do is that we aren't telling you there's a new way. That is a massive movement within the evangelical world: "I've got this new discovery. I've got this new prayer." I remember when the Prayer of Jabez just blew up. It was like this new way of praying. Where is that today? It's like everything that was once big has now moved away. There has been this underlying, consistent Christian living that has been around for thousands of years. That's where this conversation is going to go next. How does Confessional Theology lead us to rest in Christ and bring clarity where there's a lot of confusion? In other words, we aren't the first to battle with this. It has been a conversation that's been going on since the time of Christ. It would be wise of us to look at history and see the conclusions that believers have made. We aren't the first to struggle with those.  
  
We'll be heading over to the members' podcast. This is where we're going to get pretty lively because we're very passionate about this. If you don't know what this is, it's just a simple way for us to one have an additional podcast. It's a little bit more intimate.  
  
It's also how we fund our podcasts. It costs us a lot of money to produce and transcribe these. It also costs money for us to produce books that we're producing. We have one on assurance that you can get on our website. There's a free book there as well. If you want to learn more about this podcast, you can go to the members' podcast and help support us. You can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com.  
  
Gentlemen, we'll see you on the other side.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-drowning-in-evangelicalism-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-drowning-in-evangelicalism/)

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### MEMBERS: Dazed and Confused: Does 2 Peter 1:1-12 Teach Pietism? (Transcript)

*Published: June 24, 2020 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-dazed-and-confused-does-2-peter-1-1-12-teach-pietism-transcript*
*Tags: 2 Peter 1:1-12, Legalism, Pietism, Sanctification*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-dazed-and-confused-does-2-peter-11-12-teach-pietism/)  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Welcome to the members' podcast. Before we get rolling, we just want to say a quick thank you to those members who support us. We are so grateful for your partnership in the gospel. I don't know all of your names and I don't know what all of you look like, but it is a humbling thing to think that you still support us in financial ways, through your prayers, and through your sharing of this material. Thank you for that.  
  
We are going to continue our Dazed and Confused conversation from 2 Peter 1\. Jon, why don't you tee us up about where we're going today?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Real quick: for those of you that haven't done it yet, go over to our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members and you can start listening to the members podcast on your phone, on your favorite podcast app, including the 300-plus episodes that we have now. You can go back to our old archives.  
  
One of the things we get asked about a lot and a lot of the encouraging I do with some pastors is how to transition people out of pietism. Because really, if you think about it, there are two things that we do as Christians. One, we lead people out of the darkness and into the light through the gospel, right? We lead them out of death and into light, and it's a glorious transition to watch the Spirit work through the power of the gospel. The second thing that we should do is we need to lead people out of bondage into freedom - and you do that the same way, which is through the gospel.  
  
There are people who are saved unfortunately in a legalistic context where their assurance is very shaky. They understand the gospel, but yet there's confusion when it comes to understanding their security in Christ. 2 Peter is a great place to go because a lot of times people will use that to call into question their assurance, but I think it's a great place to stand on your assurance. It is glorious picture of the entirety of the Bible, where before you ever have instructions, you always have the gospel. Just like when you're reading a novel, if you start on page one of the Bible, in Genesis 1, it starts with the glory of God, the creation, and the fall of man. What is the first thing that God does following those? He promises them the gospel, He promises them a Messiah who is the one to come and crush the head of Satan, the seed of Eve, which is Jesus. What instructions does He give to Adam and Eve as it relates to the promise? There are no instructions. He first grounds their assurance. There are instructions about what to do until you get into Noah. Well, there are instructions like the sacrificial system set up - we don't know where that came from; there was a side conversation that was never recorded apparently. The point of it is that He first grounds them before He gives them instructions.  
  
The same thing is true of the Abrahamic covenant. He grounds them in the promise of Him doing things before He hands Abraham instructions on being the people of God. I would say that the Mosaic covenant was never intended to be given to the people of Israel so that they could earn their salvation - that was not the original intention of it. It was to prove they couldn't. It was given so they could be in the fellowship of it but the promise of the gospel being given is always rooted in what's been done. Being able to use 2 Peter is a great section to not confuse anyone, but I think it actually establishes our assurance in Christ's promises and not pietism.  
  
Justin Perdue: Some thoughts for pastors in particular or those in the local church context who are going to be teaching God's word, and setting a tone for the assembly in that regard, there are certainly times where we need to warn people and we need to, in one sense, figuratively shake people who are in hard-hearted, unrepentant, high-handed sin. No doubt about that. Because they're going toward a path of destruction. It's going to be terrible for their lives and all that. They could harm others and we need to warn them appropriately that this will not go well for them. But the resting heart rate, so to speak, of the church and of Christian teaching toward godliness is modeled well here by Peter and other apostles in the way that they write their epistles.  
  
To pick up a little bit on what Jon is saying, we always ground people in their standing before the Lord in Christ, their identity in Jesus, their status as justified, and then we talk about how we are to live in the church from there. If you were to think about a pastoral posture, there is some misunderstanding that's out there as to how we grow in the faith and what motivates us. A lot of guys get up on a pulpit and that their posture is one of cracking a whip from behind like, "Let's get in gear. Let's get going. Take this seriously or you're going to be damned at the end of this thing."  
  
The pastoral posture that I would rather have, that I think is more of what we see in the apostles, is more of a pulling from the front and pointing to Christ: here is who He is, here is what He has done, here is who we are. We're safe. Here's what pleases God. Here's what's good for our neighbor. Let's do this. I think that is the regular tone and tenor of Christian teaching.  
  
Keep in mind that these guys are writing in two contexts: either a Jewish context where there's a rampant kind of works righteousness thing going on, or they're writing into Gentile contexts where people have never heard God's Law and they don't know what's good and bad according to it. So the apostles are having to tell them, "Here is how the redeemed lived together in the church under the gospel." It's not works righteousness. Sometimes we forget that too because we're well steeped in morality and in even a Judeo-Christian understanding of morality. We assume that everybody just knew that already when the apostles are writing these things - and I don't think they did.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you keep reading, he says in verse 12, "Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in that truth that you have." This is what Justin just said. Then he says this, "I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able to at any time to recall these things."  
  
He can't just mean the obedience here because what does he do? He sandwiches the reminders of the promises and our forgiveness. I think he means all of it. He goes, "When I'm gone, I want you to be so ingrained to recall the promises and your responsibility." The pietist in us always wants to point back to required obedience and I don't think that's what he means.  
  
Justin Perdue: When he goes on in verses 16-21 to talk about the prophetic word, the fact that we have something that's even surer than what he saw on the Mount of Transfiguration, and we have the word of God. What is the word of God about? The word of God is about redemption. It is about what God has done. It is about those great promises that He referenced in verses 3-4: God's power and God's faithfulness to you. I think that's clear even in where he goes next after verse 15\. We have the word of God, and the word of God is about this, and you're always going to be remembering and recalling what God has done and what He has told you to do as part of the covenant community.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think verse 16 and onwards are key where he talks about having the prophetic word, and looking to how God Himself has designed the Christian life to work itself out.  
  
When you study church history, particularly ancient church history, and you look at the ways that the church had to be on guard against all sorts of nonsense about what it meant to be a true godly person, or what it meant to be a Christian, I think what Peter is doing here is he's saying, "Don't you see this?" In verse 16 he says, "For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power..." It's like he is saying that what he had just said in 2 Peter 1:3-15 is what the Christian life looks like. It is not some magical, mystical, outside-of-the-bounds-of-Scripture way to live. Often, is this not the plea of pietism, that there is a secret that you need to unlock in order to live the Christian life? That there is something that you are missing that you need to go outside of the bounds of the gospel in order to truly live a Christian life. I think what Peter is doing here is saying no. This is what it looks like to make your calling and election: you remember the gospel, you remember how God has loved you unconditionally in spite of your sin, in Christ, and you look to your neighbor and you say, because of what God has done for you in Christ, you are able to supplement the faith that you have with virtue, godliness, and self-control. It is not this ascetic approach, monastic approach, or myth-driven approach to the Christian life. Peter is saying don't buy into that nonsense. When you begin to see the epistles in that light, that they are for us as well but there are also clear contexts in which they are written, you're going to begin to see the reasons why he's using this language. The reason why he is being so harsh here is because he's talking about this. So keep that in mind as you begin, particularly pastors, to preach passages like this.  
  
Justin Perdue: If you think about, again, the pattern of the epistles and even the language of stirring people up - Peter uses that language in 2 Peter 1 - there is the language of stirring up in Hebrews 10 that we all mutually do for one another. What is that on the heels of? That's on the heels of some of the most glorious verses and chapters in all of Scripture about the sufficiency of the work of Christ, the place of the Christian, how Jesus is the fulfillment of everything that has come before him, and how he has secured our redemption. He has atoned for our sin, it made perfect satisfaction for us, and he's perfected us for all time. But if you think about the other epistles that are written by other apostles, in particular the Pauline pattern of always giving people their identity and their status and everything, and then talking about how they're to live together. Where does Paul always go? If we're talking about Ephesians, this is true - he immediately goes into context of the local church, living life together, and their love for each other. In Galatians, after having made wonderful defenses of the gospel and how there is no room for works at all in terms of our standing before the Lord, chapter 6 is all about gentleness, loving each other, restoring each other, and all these things. In Romans, immediately he goes into loving each other and how we deal with weaker brethren and things like that. It seems that for the apostles, there is a legitimate outflow of the gospel in terms of how we live together in love, grace, mercy, charity, and patience, and that seems to be where they go all the time. They don't immediately go to this really hyper-introspective personal righteousness piece. They go toward what the gospel means for you as you live with your neighbor. That's an observation we make all the time here on Theocast, but that drum needs to continue to be beaten because pietism makes it all about you and your own personal performance for your own sake versus this is actually about us as the people of God; it's about you loving your brothers.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think this is proof that Scripture does teach a saint-sinner reality because they speak to the saint side, "You're secure in Christ by faith alone. Now here's how to deal with the sinner side of you." Because the two are not matched up. That's called glorification. The moment you are fully glorified, sinner no longer exists. We will not be saint-sinner in heaven. Praise be to Jesus. I cannot wait. Lord, come quickly, be it your will. Tomorrow would be nice, but it's your will be done. This is a perfect section of Scripture to say, "Look, here is a saint-sinner reality." Peter is speaking to the saints who are secure in Christ by the promises of God. "Here's how to deal with the sinful flesh as it wars against the Spirit, and don't forget that you're grounded in Christ."  
  
Being able to have two things: Law-gospel distinction, which we haven't really mentioned yet. He does give Law in here, which is the third use of the Law. But what does he do? He separates it from the gospel. He never says the Law achieves your assurance for your salvation. We have everything we need for life in godliness in the promises of Christ. Here's where you were to obey, but remind yourselves this is how you are secure.  
  
So you have a saint-sinner reality and you also have a Law-gospel section here. In my opinion, if you collapse saint-sinner and you collapse Law-gospel, you are going to have such a mess of not knowing what to do for people. They're going to basically assume that if they are ineffective and not increasing, they are not legitimate children of God. I've seen it happen.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We're glad to do these Dazed and Confused episodes. They are all over the Bible. Maybe we should do a Dazed and Confused episode from the Old Testament sometime.  
  
To our members, thank you for supporting us and listening to us rant and rave about some of our favorite things. We sure do appreciate your love, support, and your partnership.  
  
Again, we just want to point you to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com. We're continuing to put out some resources. Also, our new mini podcast, Ask Theocast, where we take some of these complex questions and we try to answer them in four minutes or less - be sure to check that out as well. We are beginning to do a bit more writing in terms of some primers as well as little articles and blog posts. Be sure to check that out at wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com.  
  
Thank you for listening. We're excited to see you next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/dazed-and-confused-does-2-peter-11-12-teach-pietism-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/dazed-and-confused-does-2-peter-11-12-teach-pietism/)

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### Dazed and Confused: Does 2 Peter 1:1-12 Teach Pietism? (Transcript)

*Published: June 24, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/dazed-and-confused-does-2-peter-1-1-12-teach-pietism-transcript*
*Tags: 2 Peter 1:1-12, Legalism, Pietism, Sanctification*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/dazed-and-confused-does-2-peter-11-12-teach-pietism/)**  
  
Jimmy Buehler: On the podcast today, we seek to answer one of your questions about 2 Peter 1 and how this chapter is not teaching what we call pietism. We will also be discussing the difference between piety and pietism. We look at the saint-sinner realities of the Christian life. So we exegete the first 12 verses of this passage in our regular podcasts and in our members' podcasts.  
  
We look at the rest of the chapter and discuss how we preach that in a way that helps bolster people's assurance and doesn't rip it out from underneath their feet. We hope this conversation is helpful for you. Stay tuned.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Dazed and Confused typically is a segment we do when someone reads a passage and they walk away more confused or dazed than they were before they read it - and that's one of these.  
  
Today we're going to be covering 1 Peter 1:1-12\. This question came in from Mel Lockhart. Thank you, Mel. The question is, "How does Peter's instructions in 2 Peter differ from pietism?" While it's obvious that Peter is not a pietist in this section, it doesn't mean he's not a pietist. We all struggle with pietism.  
  
For the sake of clarification, who wants to give us a 15-second explanation of what pietism is?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I'd be glad to do that, Jon. Just to be clear, piety is good. The sanctification in the Christian life and the pursuit of holiness are good things. Pietism is more of a microscopic, intense focus on the interior of the Christian life, where the vast majority of your Christian life is spent; this is perhaps morbid introspection in trying to discern your fruit. What we would say is pietism is actually crippling to the fruitfulness of the Christian life because you are spending most of your days trying to find the most microscopic sin within your own life. So piety is good but pietism is not so good.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you would like a more fertile or a fuller explanation of that, you can go to our website. We have a small primer there which I think is around $3 called _A Primer on Pietism_, which is one of the first primers we ever wrote. Basically what we're saying is pietism is you trying to earn and maintain favor with God, and that your actions and your obedience are the way in which you do that. So how is it that Peter is not doing this in 2 Peter?  
  
Justin Perdue: It begins with the greeting, which is a pretty standard greeting from the apostle Peter where he is greeting saints and reminding them of the faith that they have that is equal to the standing of the faith of the apostles, and that all of this is by the righteousness of our God and savior, Jesus Christ.  
  
Then he greets the saints with grace and peace. We begin there, but in verses 3-4, Peter grounds this whole thing in the power of God and in the promises that God has made to us. So this is where he begins; he begins with the indicatives or the realities of who we are in Christ as saints, and again, the power and the working of God in us.  
  
Then he's going to go on to exhort these Christians to pursue godliness. A brief interjection: we should never assume that exhortations necessarily mean something threatening like, "do this or else." That's not how expectations work underneath the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Peter is saying that you're in Jesus, and it's all about God's power and His promises made to you. Now go and pursue godliness and brotherly affection: love one another, and do these good things so that you'll be good for your neighbor as God works in you. Then at the end of this section, and we'll get into this more later, it's very interesting that Peter in verse 9 will talk about how people who lack these qualities are near-sighted, they're blind, and they have forgotten the fact that they have been cleansed from sin.  
  
So it seems that a huge problem here is that people have actually forgotten the gospel and have forgotten what Jesus Christ has done for them. So a 30,000-foot summary would be God's power is at work in you; God has made promises to you in the Lord Jesus Christ; this is who you are in Him. Pursue godliness and brotherly affection so that you will be fruitful and helpful to your neighbor. Remember the gospel, in other words. We're going to unpack all of these things today.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Jon is going to take us to verses 3-4\. Before he does, a prudent point to make is that one of the fundamental issues that you see in the New Testament epistles is the writers, the apostles, are consistently saying what you just said, Justin, that one of the fundamental issues is a forgetting of the gospel or a forgetting of the indicative realities of the gospel of Jesus Christ: who you are, and what God has done for you in Christ. When we forget the gospel, a whole host of problems comes forth. That is why so many of the epistles begin with the apostles reminding the churches that they are writing to of the glorious realities of what God has done for His people in Christ.  
  
Then they get into these exhortations, a lot of times in the latter half, and specifically with 2 Peter. One of the greatest places that we can ground 2 Peter on is actually back in 1 Peter 1 where Peter reminds the people that he is writing to have these wonderful promises that God has made to them in Christ.  
  
Keeping in mind that these are inspired words by the Holy Spirit, we read the entire text as a whole. It's good to remember that not all exhortations are threatening. Certainly there are some exhortations that are threatening, but we can't always read the text that way. All of us, as fathers, exhort our children, but a lot of times we don't exhort them in threatening ways. We want to keep that in mind.  
  
Jon Moffitt: These instructions are not alienated from your identity and your union with Christ.  
  
What Peter does here, before he even gets into these instructions, is that he guarantees your union - union meaning that you are united with Jesus Christ through the power of the Spirit. That the way in which you are secured is not based upon faith that you drummed up. It's also not based upon your faithfulness. Your faith has been gifted to you, which united you with Christ, you were baptized into Christ, and you died in Christ. What he does here is he grounds his instructions in the union of Christ.  
  
He starts in verse 3 where he says this, "His divine power," meaning Christ, "has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness," so if you miss that, you miss everything else that follows. It is God's power that has given us everything that we need to live this life and to produce godliness. How do we know what that looks like? Where does that come from? He says, the power "through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence." So the knowledge of Jesus Christ is what is giving us the power to live this life and godliness.  
  
The next verse is where you will hear something that Theocast says all the time: "by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may be partakers of the divine nature." What is he pointing to? He's not pointing to obedience. He's not pointing to faithfulness. He's not pointing to actions. He says, "the promises". What promises are you talking about? The promises of God who says, "I will redeem the people through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." He's talking about new covenant realities; the covenant of grace; the promise that God saves sinners by grace alone. He says, "so that through them you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire." So our escape from this world is always through the promises of Christ, never through your obedience. Peter gives one of the most glorious gospel presentations before he gets into instruction. So that's the foundation. He starts with the indicative. He says this is the truth by which what he is about to say has to rest upon.  
  
Justin Perdue: He begins with the promises of God, God's faithfulness to us, and the promises of God specifically realized and accomplished for us through Jesus.  
  
Then he moves into verses 5-7 in which he's going to exhort his readers. He's going to say that for this very reason - because of God's power that's at work in you, because of God's faithfulness to you and the promises He has made to you, and because of who you are in Jesus, vitally united to Christ by faith and through the work of the Holy Spirit - because of all of this, and for this reason, "make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love."  
  
He's saying all of these things. This is a constant refrain of the apostles; live life this way in the community of the saints and to concern yourself with these things: virtue, knowledge, self-control, steadfastness, godliness, and love. This is nothing new that Peter is exhorting his readers to.  
  
As I'm reading Peter's flow of thought here, as he's grounding all of these exhortations in these glorious truths of the gospel and what Christ has done for us and God's faithfulness to us, my takeaway is no kidding. What else would I want to do as a redeemed sinner? Why in the world would I ever consider what God has done for me, and His faithfulness to me, and not want to pursue loving my brothers and sisters, or to pursue steadfastness or godliness? "I just want to keep running in the direction of sin and harming my neighbor," said no one ever.  
  
We're going to struggle because we're still sinners. We are sinner-saints so at times, we're not going to live the way we want, and we're not going to think the way that we want. But in our inner man, we will delight in the Law of God and we will see that these expectations from the apostle Peter are good things.  
  
My takeaway is I'm with you. In light of Christ and God's faithfulness to us, let's pursue this. That's the posture that I would want to have as a preacher even, as I'm going to be giving these exhortations to my own congregation. Saints, let's consider the love and faithfulness of God to us in Christ Jesus. Let's consider what Christ has done for us, and now let's pursue these things. I imagine their reaction is going to be like what I've described: "Absolutely, brother. Amen. No kidding."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: The inner pietist dies a very slow and painful death, and often resurrects again, only needing to be drowned and killed again. As we look at verses 8-9, "For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins." One of the things that pietism loves is conditional statements. Pietism reads conditional statements in this threatening tone. What I think Peter is doing here is he is giving sound logic. When he says in verse 8, "For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." That just makes sense.  
  
What pietism wants to do is it wants to take that verse and it's always going to ask the question, "What if it's not increasing? What does that mean?" He gives us the solution in verses 3-4, which is really the grounds, as Jon said earlier, for the entire passage. What is the medicine to the soul that is ineffective? What is the prescription to the, to the person that is unfruitful? It's never to pull out the whip of the Law and get them moving. It's always remembering what the gospel says, that His divine power has granted you this ability, that in and of yourself you are dead face down in the water in sin, and without the saving grace, merciful, faith-gifting God, none of this would be possible. That is what you need to look to. That is where your eyes need to go.  
  
When Peter says what he does in verse 8, and numerous times already, no kidding. If these qualities are not increasing, you are going to be ineffective because people are going to look at you and say, something's off here. What's not clicking in his brain? And then verse 9, "For whoever lacks these qualities is so near-sighted that he's blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins." Peter is again reminding them that when you act this way or when you fail to act this way, what are you saying by your life? That you have forgotten.  
  
One of my friends' pastor out in California - he talks about how remembrance is often the fuel of our faith, that we remember what God has done for us in Christ. Peter is saying the exact same thing here in verses 8-9.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To your point, Jimmy, he says ineffective and unfruitful in what? Not in securing your salvation, not in proving your salvation - he says you're ineffective and unfulfilled in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is where pietists can get afraid. They don't want to be ineffective and unfruitful because then they'll lack assurance. That is not what he's saying here at all. If you'll notice that every single one of these virtues - self-control, steadfastness, godliness, and all of these - are horizontal actions; they all have to do with you and your relationship to your brothers and sisters in Christ. The goal is to be able to not only preach but also demonstrate the gospel. What I mean by that is if I've been transformed, I now give grace because I've received grace. You don't live the gospel. Let's just be clear there. But what he's saying is if you aren't demonstrating these qualities when it comes to the responsibilities that God gave us - love your neighbor and the other one is love God - you're going to be ineffective in doing that and it's not going to be fruitful. A fruitful relationship with another believer is to give them grace, mercy, kindness, forgiveness, and love. If you're not giving those qualities, you are actually denying the knowledge that's been handed to you. This is why he says you're ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  
  
Now, when he's talking about whoever lacks these qualities is near-sighted, this is where things can get murky for people. When you find yourself unkind, unloving, lacking godliness, you have fallen and you're not virtuous in your actions, what you should be turning to is repentance and what causes you to repent, clearly in verse 9, is what's cleansed you. You are always looking to the past to motivate you for the present. You always look to your position. You are secure in Christ so that you may pursue holiness. You never look to your holiness, what's in the present, to look and secure what has happened in the past, my salvation. Peter does an excellent job here of using language to help us say, "Look to your past to motivate you to pursue holiness."  
  
Justin Perdue: I think this needs to be reiterated. The prescription, as you put it, Jimmy, whenever we find ourselves struggling is to remember the gospel and God throughout Scripture. The Old Testament and the New Testament both operate this way. He constantly is telling His people to remember what He has done: "Remember me. Remember who I am. Remember that I'm a redeemer. I'm the God who brought you out of Egypt." Here we're being told to remember that He is the God who has worked the greater exodus for you in saving you from slavery to sin, death, and hell. So we're remembering the gospel.  
  
In particular, we're considering Jesus Christ. A couple of things come to mind: 2 Corinthians 3 where we're told that by beholding the Lord Jesus, we're transformed from one degree of glory to another. If we're even thinking about growth in the faith, that happens primarily as we behold the Lord Jesus.  
  
But then, also think about Philippians 2 where Jesus is held up as a model for us. You're struggling with pride, which every human being would acknowledge. I'm a prideful person. What does Paul say in Philippians 2? Consider Christ. Look to Christ as not only the one who lived and died for you, but who laid his life down as a model of humility, service, and sacrifice as well. To consider the Lord Jesus is always the prescription.  
  
Also a Romans 2 reality: the kindness of God, the mercy, the grace, and the patience of God is meant to lead us to repentance, and it's God's love that repents us. It's not us wigging out over our performance and our lack of holiness that ultimately does it. It's God's Spirit working in us, as God has been gracious and merciful to wretches such as we. So I agree completely.  
  
I want to transition us into verses 10-11\. Verse 10, "Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities, you'll never fall." He is now exhorting them again to be diligent. Jimmy, you mentioned this earlier about how pietism always views expectations as threatening. I alluded to that earlier about how pietism will read conditional statements and there's always some sort of jeopardy introduced: if you don't do this well enough, then it will go poorly for you and you may not be able to stand before the Lord. The call to diligence is in no way contradictory to the gospel; we've got to get that through our minds. We can be called to be diligent and be safe; you can actually be secure and be exhorted to diligence. You're safe because you're in good standing with the Lord. I think that is in Peter's mind here. He's acknowledging the reality that if you practice these qualities, it's going to go really well for you, and it's going to go really well for everybody around you. You will profit and your neighbor will profit.  
  
I was reading recently, and this a Baptist theologian from the 1700s who makes a statement, and I paraphrase, "The most perfect of men will be of no profit to God, but he will be blessed enough himself and he will be a blessing to his neighbor if we pursue righteousness." This was his conclusion. I think that's what Peter is saying as well. It will be good for you and good for your neighbor if you pursue these things.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is where the pietism can get very confusing. Here in verse 10 is where the heat comes in. What people point to is that we all the more should be diligent to confirm our calling and election. What are they going to point to? They're going to point right back to the faithfulness, virtue, knowledge, self-control, and godliness. Even grammatically speaking, that is not what he's pointing back to. You have to understand the last thing he just said: he was talking about the forgetting of your cleansing. That's what he's pointing back to. He can't be pointing to the diligence of obedience, because if he does, he would completely counteract everything he said in verses 3-4 and in verses 8-9\. He would have completely undermined the promises of the gospel.  
  
This verse is often used for to call people's assurance into question. You're smoking out the lazy Christian; you're smoking out the person who just wants to claim Jesus. That's not what he's saying. He's saying to, be diligent to confirm your calling and election - how do you do that? You confirm it by looking at the promises and believing the promises. He says that if you practice these qualities...what qualities? Looking to how you have been cleansed, then you will never fall. Fall where? Fall away from Christ. That's what he's pointing to. He can't be pointing you towards your faithfulness because that would be grace plus works. This is Roman Catholicism, which we did a podcast on. He can't be pointing us to that.  
  
This is the same thing that Paul does. In Ephesians 4, he says the same thing. If these things are true about you, you are to make yourself worthy of your calling and election - he points to our obedience and love for the brothers, but he does not say your obedience. The love of the brothers is what confirms it.  
  
We have another Dazed and Confused that we are going to do soon, and it is on the same issue: to examine yourself to see if you are of the faith. People use this passage in the same way.  
  
I don't know if you guys have additional thoughts on there, but why is it that he can't be pointing back to the qualities? When he says qualities, the qualities of godliness as the practice of assuring your calling and election as the ground of your assurance. Where else would you go to Scripture to say that just can't be true?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think of Ephesians 1 and 2\. Ephesians 1 gives us this great Trinitarian theological treatise on how all the Persons of the Trinity are working in tandem for the redemption of broken and weary sinners.  
  
Then we get into Ephesians 2 where Paul takes that glorious in-the-air gospel and he brings it to them to the ground level. He talks about how it's been applied to us by grace alone, through faith alone, and counted to Christ alone. That's Ephesians 2:1-10 and it's not until those things are presented that, again, we start to see the imperatives be fleshed out in chapters 3 and on in the book of Ephesians.  
  
But you have to remember that what we see in the book of Ephesians, as you think about the entirety of the letter, is that Paul never talks about the grounds of our assurance and our safety in Christ being what we do in response to the gospel. The grounds of our safety in Christ are bound up in the grace, mercy, and in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Period. Even our confession talks about this where we can be encouraged by the good works in this life of our assurance in Christ, but it can never ultimately be found there. They can bolster our assurance, but ultimately it is grounded in the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: A number of passages come to mind. One is Philippians 3 where Paul is very clear about the fact that he does not understand himself to have a righteousness of his own. That's huge. This is related to 11.1 in the 1689 and corresponding passages, and even in the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Savoy Declaration that Jesus Christ is our whole and only righteousness by faith. Paul in Philippians 3 makes it clear: "I don't consider myself to have a righteousness of my own, but I pursue the righteousness that is from God through faith in Jesus Christ." So it's very clear that the righteousness that will save is an alien righteousness, to use that Reformation language; it's outside of us and it's counted to us by faith.  
  
I'm mindful of the entire first eight chapters of Romans. The argument that Paul unfolds there with the fact that there's nobody good and everybody stands condemned by the Law, or by even the law of nature, and that now the righteousness of God has been revealed apart from the Law through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believed.  
  
Then he gets into a number of realities that are relevant to this. Chapter 5 says we have peace with God, the Holy Spirit's been poured out in our hearts, we were dead in Adam and we're alive in Jesus. We've been united to Christ, and now we have a new identity but we still struggle with sin - Romans 7 - and yet we have hope not because we do everything right, but because nobody can bring a charge against God's elect because Christ is the one who saved us. Nobody is going to separate us from the love of God and Christ Jesus.  
  
Those are just a few thoughts. I know we've talked about Galatians. Jon, you may want to take us there.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Galatians is probably the one that we point to quite often. There is no way that Peter and Paul are disagreeing with each other; there has to be coherence here.  
  
So Paul clearly points the Galatians away from examining their own works, or even their own efforts as securing them by way of furthering... He says in Galatians 6:3, "Why are you so foolish to think that you're going to begin by the Spirit and now perfect yourself by the flesh?" They take Peter's instructions in 2 Peter and say that his pointing to your own faithfulness or your own efforts outside of the Spirit would counteract what Paul is saying in Galatians. So is Paul right or is Peter right? In context, I think Peter is making the argument that the qualities are pointing to the promises and the cleansing that we have and the act of trusting in those promises.  
  
Justin Perdue: I think it's clear in the New Testament that the realization of piety or the realization of godliness is always through what Jesus Christ has done for us. It's never outside of the work of the Holy Spirit in us. That could not be more clear that that we do not, in our own effort, through white knuckling this thing and gritting our teeth; we don't do this. It's God who works in us and works through us and does it by His power.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just to go back to the context, he says in 2 Peter 1:10, "Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." There is no way Peter is saying your faithfulness to these qualities is what you're entering into because if he is, that is grace plus works - that's what he would be saying. So is he denying what he said in verses 3-4? No, I think it's all in the same context. It's all in the same pericope, which is a section of Scripture. He hasn't moved on to the next paragraph yet.  
  
Sometimes the English language can be confusing because you can't look at it in the original languages, but when you're trying to translate these words and you're not looking at it in the entire context, you could argue it that Peter is saying that your faithfulness is what is going to secure for you your heavenly home. You have to look at all of Scripture. You have to look at all of the argumentation.  
  
I would say Peter is not a pietist here. Peter is definitely a pietist because we all are at heart, but in what he's teaching here, Peter is not teaching pietism. I think he is teaching an appropriate view of piety, which is around your faith in Christ and in your grounding your faith in Christ, here is how you should act. This is piety that we should all obey and adhere to.  
  
Justin Perdue: Peter, in his fall in this, is a pietist by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. What he writes here is infallible and true and good and right. We here at Theocast are in complete agreement with this kind of reasoning and thinking under the gospel: here's your identity, here's what Christ has done for you, here's the faithfulness of God to you, now be diligent in pursuing godliness and piety, and be diligent in pursuing namely loving your brothers and sisters. Because if we're going to reduce down the commands of God to us in this life, it is to love one another. It's the words of Jesus. It's the words of John repetitively in his writing. Even as history goes, there are reliable sources that would indicate that the apostle John, who lived longer than the other apostles, would be carried in his old age into assemblies and would simply say things like, "Little children, love one another." That was his main exhortation. The gospel and the work of Christ for us in the sufficiency of Christ propel us forward in the pursuit of godliness. It's not threatening and it's not scary. It's what we do in living in Christ.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: You could look at this section and 2 Peter 1 and call it growing up in the gospel, and growing up and understanding what God has done for you in Christ. It just makes logical sense that the gospel is what pushes us to love our neighbor. The gospel is what pushes us to add virtue to our lives. This is the whole guilt-grace-gratitude idea that the Law exposes our guilt, the gospel shows us God's grace, and then the gospel also motivates and gives us gratitude that fuels the holiness in the Christian life.  
  
So pietism is very tricky. It is like the snake that is always around the corner asking the question, "Did God really say?" Because it always wants to point you to you being in control, that you are outside of God's sovereign decrees, and that you can do whatever it is that you want and your eternity is within your own hand. That is ultimately what it wants to do, where we believe that the vast majority, the entire narrative of Scripture, is pointing to this truth that salvation belongs to whom? It belongs to the Lord. That is what we are always seeking to remind ourselves of and remind our people of specifically when we look at confusing passages like this.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Gentlemen, we're going to move over to the members' podcast. Before we do, if someone is going to either preach this or teach this, how do you do so and not step all over people's toes and help people slowly? To those who are new to Theocast, if you're not from a Reformed background, this is all probably new to you. I can remember the first time I heard the word pietism. I had no idea what they were saying.  
  
We're going to work on that a little bit for you in helping you understand and really using scriptures like 2 Peter to help free people from legalism and pietism. How can you do that with grace and mercy and kindness? We'll do that in the members' podcast.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Thank you for listening to our conversation today. We're going to head over to our members' podcast. If you are unclear as to what that is, that is where we take the themes and the topics and the various things that we've discussed in this podcast, and we let our hair down a little bit and have a little bit more of a lively conversation. So that is exclusively for our members.  
  
If you are interested in learning more about what it means to become a member, you can head to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and learn more about what it means to support us and receive additional resources.  
  
Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation was beneficial and helpful to you. Go ahead and share this with those around you if you think that it would help them. Thank you for your support. We're going to see you over in the members' podcast.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-dazed-and-confused-does-2-peter-11-12-teach-pietism-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-dazed-and-confused-does-2-peter-11-12-teach-pietism/)

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### MEMBERS: Back to Rome? (Transcript)

*Published: June 17, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-back-to-rome-transcript*
*Tags: Catholicism, Catholics, Reformation theology, Reformed Theology, Roman Catholicism, Roman Catholics*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-back-to-rome/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast. As always, thank you for supporting us. We are trying desperately to provide more of this material as much as we can, and we want to thank you for your monthly support because it allows us to do that.  
  
Justin, this was a bit punchier of a podcast for us today. It took us quite a bit of a gasoline to get it off the ground just because we were trying to be careful to make the conversation helpful and not just a poke in the eye at Catholics.  
  
This conversation really is important, and we held back a little bit on the regular podcast and rightfully so, because there are so many new people who are constantly listening to us. We want them to be able to digest what we're saying without being offended. Those of you that are members, you probably have listened to us at least for a little bit, and I just want to say that one of the things that Justin and I, as any pastor, try very hard to do is shepherd, love, and care for our people. We are very protective of their faith. We become very animated when anybody comes in and starts to bring fear and doubt into their hope.  
  
Unfortunately, large respected evangelicals will say things that undermine the foundation of what we have been trying to establish and what Reformers have been trying to establish for the last 500 years if they're not careful with what they're thinking. This is the downside of the Internet. This is the downside of modern publishing. People can quickly go and put something out there without contemplating it. I can be guilty of this as well, but this is why we try to be so careful about what we say on Theocast because the implications of it are massive.  
  
What some of these men have done has brought unbelievable amounts of guilt and fear upon people to where they can't even sleep at night. You and I know this to be true because they're in our churches. We shepherd these people. So we are a little animated and a little, or I would say a lot, concerned that this type of theology needs to be checked very quickly because it will have long lasting effects in the evangelical world, and it's going to affect the way that pastors shepherd their people, which then is going to affect the next generations to come.  
  
Justin Perdue: So true. I have tons of things written down on my whiteboard right now in response to what you're saying. I am motivated very much by a pastoral concern for my people. I'm concerned for people that would listen to me speak on a platform like this. If we are honest with ourselves, in our sane moments we all know that we struggle with sin. We all know that we do not meet God's standard. We all know that we have broken all of God's commands; we've never really kept any of them. Like John Newton has written of himself, "We are riddles to ourselves and we're heaps of inconsistence." We've got nothing to say in our own defense because we're still battling our corruption - and life is hard for us a lot of times. The standard and the yoke that is placed upon people by many guys who claim to be gospel preachers or Reformed in their theology is a burden that we are not meant to bear in Christ.  
  
What does it do? It's a burden that people can't bear and it ends up robbing people of joy, it robs people of peace, and it robs saints of assurance. When you place this kind of yoke on people that was not intended to be there, and you turn good works into something meritorious or to escape God's wrath, you actually hinder real growth in sanctification. People start to pursue it for the wrong reasons, and they're motivated by fear and dread; they're not motivated by gospel, and they're not motivated by love of God and neighbor.  
  
I'm with Martin Luther in that we all we need grace and peace. One of the reasons why Paul and other apostles would greet people, "Grace to you and peace from God, our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ," is because we need grace. We need to be reminded of grace all the time because we're sinners. We need to be reminded that we have peace with God all the time because we have troubled consciences. I think that is true of almost all people - and I'm talking about people in the church. My big issue in part with this is that you are bludgeoning, wounding, and hurting Christ's people for whom he died. You are hindering them in not only their sanctification, but also their joy and the rest that they would know in Jesus. You are causing people to really doubt whether or not they are really righteous in the sight of God. Jesus has already settled this; he is enough and he is sufficient and I will die for that. I would stake my ministry on that. That's why I get heated because to me, it's a question of the sufficiency of Christ and it also is harming the saints. I know the damage that it has done to me, so I have some existential skin in the game when it comes to that too.  
  
The other thing I'll say is that it's ridiculously inconsistent, theologically and intellectually, to say some of the things that guys say: that Jesus has saved us but now you better go do your part. It almost comes across as theological and intellectual schizophrenia. I just don't have a lot of respect for that kind of thing. I know that these brothers mean well, and I'm not trying to impugn their motivations, and I know that I'm a sinner and I'm fallible and I make errors, too. But we're standing on the shoulders of people who have gotten this right throughout the history of the church when we say these things.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is not new. It's new, but it's not historically new. It's new to a lot of people in modern day context.  
  
Justin Perdue: So old that it sounds new because people just never heard it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: A lot of the accusation is that people who hold this position are not concerned with holiness. We uphold the holiness of God. We uphold the required holiness of the believer.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's an old worn out argument.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I am concerned with holiness. I think that it's a very important part of the Christian faith. This is James 2 that we had already mentioned. But the thing is there is so much tension in Scripture and there are things that really pull at each other, and you have to be okay with the tension. You also have to be okay with not everything being crisp and clean because the nature of God is so contrary to the nature of man that it is hard for us to wrap our minds around what it is that God is doing.  
  
Here's a great example: we don't understand why God allows the kind of atrocities that happen in the world, but He does. We also don't understand why God would save sinners by grace through faith alone. Those are both two things we don't understand, but they're both true. We can't give a full explanation other than that's the way that God communicated His will to us in His word. The moment you try and explain those and make them work, you will start changing the nature of God into the nature of man. The moment you start infusing works into salvation, you are now trying to create a man-based system. Men naturally want to justify themselves - it is part of our nature. Look at all false religions out there; they're all self-justifications. Every false religion is a self-justification religion. You do not have religions that are based upon grace alone. Name me a false religion that is based upon grace alone. They're just not there because it's contrary to the nature of men.  
  
Justin Perdue: There is not one.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That should tell you something that every false religion tells you: that there is something required of you in order for you to be accepted for whatever deity or their version of God that is available.  
  
Justin Perdue: A lot of times people will hear us say that Christianity is the only religion that is based upon grace, and that we are saved by grace apart from anything we ever do. People might wrongly conclude, therefore, that Christianity is not concerned with upright living or with morality. That's not true. I want to be very clear what makes Christianity utterly distinct in the scope of world religion is not its morality; it's its message, its story that Christ saves sinners. At the same time, the standard of righteousness is greater in Scripture than any other religious standard is because God requires not just outward conformity to his holy and perfect Law, but He requires conformity to his holy and perfect Law at the level of the heart, the level of the thoughts, the desires, everything. He commands complete and perfect obedience to his Law, and of course, nobody's ever done it.  
  
Here is the thing: it's not like Christianity skimps on the requirement of God in order to save sinners. If anything, the standard is higher than the other religions, but God meets the standard for us in Christ, applies it to us, and then changes our lives. Then one day upon the resurrection, we will be absolutely and totally be perfectly righteous and we will shine like the sun in the kingdom of our heavenly Father. That will come. We're promised that we will be completely conformed in the image of Christ. That does mean that we'll be resurrected with a body like his, but it also means it will be perfect like him.  
  
So it's not as though we're skimping on the idea of being sanctified or being holy. The real issue here for us, if we're really going to try to make some distinctions amongst the redeemed and those who aren't, it's not that the redeemed are not sinning and the ones who aren't saved are still sinning, it's that the redeemed, in terms of their lives on the whole, are concerned and bothered about their sin, are desiring in a real way from the heart to be obedient. When I preach in my local church context to people who I understand to be redeemed, I am preaching and teaching in such a way as though I believe that they are in Christ and that they battle their corruption, and at times they might even like sin too much. Because I do. But at the heart of it, you want to obey God and you want to be holy and you don't want to sin. I trust you're praying along with how Jesus taught us to pray on a regular basis. "Forgive me for my sins and lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from evil." That's the prayers of the saints.  
  
That's the thing that really gets my blood boiling, Jon, is that I think that so much of the _modus operandi_ in the evangelical church today - and there are reasons as to why this is the case - is that nominal Christianity is in the crosshairs and we've got to smoke out all the fakers. But in trying to smoke out the fakers - which by the way Jesus tells us to not try to weed the tares out amongst the wheat or we're going to kill the wheat, which doesn't mean we don't practice church discipline because we do but those are different things - we end up bludgeoning the sheep and destroying the assurance of everybody in the room. I think there's a better way.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We believe that God uses the ordinary means of grace, including the sacraments, to strengthen our faith. Those are designed to sustain the believers' faith. So we are gifted a faith, and then God says He is also gifting us with these means, which are the ordinary ways in which your faith will be not only sustained but strengthened as you live the rest of your life. You are to look to the means to motivate and sustain you. You've added a fifth means of ordinary, and that is introspection. So it is the preached word of God, the table, baptism, prayer, and now introspection. You could also say disciplines - disciplines is now the new means. Nowhere in Scripture are you ever appointed introspectively to sustain your faith. We've dealt with this passage in a recent question: "Examine yourself to see if you're of the faith." He's saying examine where you're placing your faith, not your obedience or your holiness. That is not what he's saying. Hebrews 12 is not entirely speaking of a personal holiness or personal righteousness in context either. The struggle we're having here is that you are placing a burden on people when you say, "Listen to the word of God, read your Bible, pray, receive the table, and introspectively be examining your works to determine if they are enough that you are justified." If you look at the ordinary means, they're all _extra nos_ \- they're all outside of you. It's all reception.  
  
Justin Perdue: In particular, you are receiving Christ through those means. You are looking to God via the means. You're receiving Christ in the word, you're united to Christ, which is typified in your baptism, you are receiving Christ in the table, we pray to God in Christ, we sing of the redemptive work of Christ. I could go on and on. It's all by faith in Christ, looking toward God the Father that way.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There are things that can encourage and bolster our faith. I would say creation can be one of those. As we examine creation and we see the glory of God, we say that's our God who saved us. But it's not an ordinary means, but it is a means. Good works can bolster your confession.  
  
It's exactly what they say that examining what God is doing in your life can bolster your faith, but it's not the ordinary way in which He does it. We have to understand the difference between what God has instituted and what God can use.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's very different to say that our faith, or even our assurance, is bolstered by examining our good works rather than saying an essential part of our assurance is our good works. Those are very different things. To say I'm bolstered and encouraged by the fact that God is changing me - that's biblical; that's reformed. But to say that I know that I'm saved in looking to what I'm doing, no. I'm not going to find assurance in my good works though my assurance can be bolstered by it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This has been a good discussion. It's been a long discussion and we've enjoyed it. Hopefully this is helpful.  
  
If you have questions, feel free to reach out. If you have not signed up for the podcast feed yet, go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com/members and you can see our Theocast Academy there. You can access our recommended reading list, where we have a large list of books that we recommend on all different kinds of topics from justification, sanctification, historical theology, covenant theology - that's all there. It's a growing list and we're adding to it. We're about to add a bunch of new books to the covenant section. So be looking to that. We'll let you know when we update those.  
  
Thank you for your ongoing support. We'll see you guys next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/back-to-rome-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/back-to-rome/)

---

### Back to Rome? (Transcript)

*Published: June 17, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/back-to-rome-transcript*
*Tags: 2020*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/back-to-rome/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we're answering one of your questions. A common question we receive quite often is this: do Roman Catholics go to heaven? That's a great question. We're going to actually contrast the historic Roman Catholic perspective and what we would say is the Protestant Reformation understanding of justification. Then we're going to change the conversation a little bit to whether there are evangelicals, and even maybe those who are confessional Reformed, who are going back to Rome and holding to perspectives of justification that are very close to the Roman Catholic view.  
  
In the members' podcast, we look at this whole conversation from a pastoral perspective and what it is that really kind of boils Justin and I's blood when we think about this conversation. We hope you enjoy.  
  
Justin Perdue: Speaking of assurance and speaking of Ask Theocast, we had a question submitted by a listener that we want to address here today. On the podcast, a brother wrote in and asked, "How accurate does somebody's theology need to be in order for them to be saved?" He had in mind a number of his Roman Catholic friends and people close to him. He said, "I have these Roman Catholic people in my life who are trusting Christ for their salvation and are looking to him for their standing before God, yet they had these very abhorrent views on other issues of doctrine and practice. What am I to make of that?"  
  
In one sense, he asking whether there will be Roman Catholics in heaven or is it a situation where all Roman Catholics, because of the teaching of their church, will be condemned?  
  
Jon Moffitt: To answer your question, if there needs to be 100% accuracy in all our theology, then no one will make it to heaven other than those who were inspired when writing Scripture. There are levels of disagreement that is okay because they aren't based upon our justification. This is why there are different denominations. We, as we hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, we disagree with our Lutheran brothers, our Presbyterian brothers, and even some of our Baptist brothers who are not Calvinist. But those disagreements, I would not call any of them non-evangelical or that the doctrine they're holding to are heretical or anti-gospel, because the ground of their salvation is on Christ alone. Therefore I can say praise be to God - they are my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.  
  
When it comes to Roman Catholic theology, that is a little bit more complicated. If a consistent Catholic holds to the historic teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, they do not believe that one is justified by faith alone. They do believe in Jesus Christ; they trust in him. If you asked a Roman Catholic at any level whether they were orthodox or new to the faith if they have faith in Jesus Christ, and that he died on the cross for sins, they would say yes wholeheartedly. This isn't a podcast about Mormons, but Mormons would say the same thing.  
  
But the question then becomes this: is that sufficient for your right standing before God? The answer to that would be no. The way I would answer this is that I do believe that Roman Catholics, and it doesn't matter how long they've been in it, that there will be some in heaven because, whether willingly or not, they are going to go against the historic teaching and they believe in Jesus Christ alone to be sufficient for their salvation.  
  
I personally call those people inconsistent Catholics because they're not agreeing with their church's doctrine. If they believe in Jesus Christ alone - and to be clear, a lot of the Roman Catholic teaching is very accurate - we hold the same understanding of the virgin birth of Mary, the Trinity, and the eternality of God.  
  
Justin Perdue: They hold to the ecumenical creeds, which we do too.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That would be my answer. Those who would, either knowingly or unknowingly, deny the foundation theology of salvation of the Roman Catholic Church, those people will definitely be justified as it is written according to Scripture.  
  
Justin Perdue: Inconsistent Catholics will be in heaven - I think that's helpful. A consistent Catholic who holds to the official teaching of the Roman church is someone that we would understand to be denying the gospel. One way I might put it is there are going to be many Roman Catholics in heaven in spite of the official teaching of their church. In spite of many of the things that their church formally teaches and hold to, they are trusting Christ alone for their standing before God entirely. They understand that Jesus has saved them.  
  
This hits close to home for me. My wife is Italian and her grandfather came over from Italy and died here in the States as a part of the Roman Catholic Church. My wife remembers having a number of conversations with her grandfather of the course of years where he was very clear that he was trusting in Jesus and Jesus only for his salvation. My wife's parents were Protestants, and my wife obviously is too. These conversations matter a lot to us when we're dealing with loved ones and family members. My wife would say, "I don't know, only God knows, but I really think that my grandfather was a Christian." He was meaning to trust Christ in spite of the fact that he was in the church of Rome. There are many people that would fit that description, but we want to be really clear about the differences that do exist between Reformation Theology and Roman Catholic Theology.  
  
500-plus years ago, the Protestant Reformation started in a recognizable way as people look back on history. 1517 is the year that most people point to with some of the events that transpired there. If we think about the Reformation itself, it's been said by many, and we agree, that the formal battle of the Reformation was over _sola scriptura_ \- meaning that Scripture alone is the only ultimate and final authority for the church in matters of doctrine and practice. But the material battle, the heart and soul of the Reformation if you will, was over _sola fide_ \- that being faith alone. So the answer to the question of how a sinner is saved and reconciled to a holy God, it is by faith alone, in Christ alone, grounded in the grace of God alone. It has nothing to do with our works or our obedience; it's all about the works and the obedience and the merits of Christ applied to sinners by faith. So that is the watershed; that's the real dividing line where the rubber meets the road.  
  
The difference between being a Reformed Christian and being a Roman Catholic is that that we believe we can be assured of salvation in Christ by faith, and we believe that Jesus has done everything; we don't achieve righteousness, but rather we receive righteousness by faith in Jesus.  
  
What we want to do now for a few minutes is highlight these distinctions using some language from the Council of Trent, which occurred from the mid-1540s to the mid-1560s in response to the Protestant Reformation. It was Roman Catholic ecumenical council. We want to compare those teachings to Reformation Theology as articulated in the 1689 London Baptist Confession.  
  
Just a really quick note before I throw it back over to Jon: the 1689 is worded almost identically to the Westminster Confession from the 1640s and the Savoy Declaration that occurred in the 1650s; the Westminster Confession being a Presbyterian document, and the Savoy Declaration being written by those known as independents or congregationalists in the middle of 1600\. So we're all speaking the same language of the Reformation from the 17th century.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As it relates to justification by faith alone, historically speaking, those who claim a Protestant Reformation Theology, we are all going to agree on the same conclusions with Lutherans, Presbyterians, Independents, and Baptists. Historically speaking, for those who would hold to Protestant or those who are protesting against Rome, it's in relation primarily to our justification and our sanctification. One of the issues is that Rome mixed the two - and this is going to become very important later when we bring this up about modern evangelicalism. Rome mixed justification and sanctification; they became one and intertwined where you have to separate those categories. Because if you don't get the order - that's called _ordo salutis_ or the order of salvation - then one, you lose assurance and two, you lose the gospel. A good example of what I mean by mixing the two is something that Justin has mentioned before: Council of Trent, session six, canon 24.  
  
This is not a theology that they have necessarily denied. There's no document that says they have rejected these canons and don't believe in this teaching anymore.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's still the official teaching of Rome.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you're going to be catechized by Rome, this is what you will learn as part of their catechesis. If you're new to the word catechism, catechism is definitely not an exclusively Roman Catholic term; we catechize as well. Anyway, to be trained by Rome, it says this, "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema." Or another way to say that is cursed; you're going to be cursed by God and by church, condemned as guilty, if you believe that you are saved by faith alone and that your works are the fruit of your justification - which is the Protestant reformation perspective; we believe that your good works are the works of the Spirit that are given to you after your regeneration. Rome is saying that your good works not only justify you, but they increase your justification or they sustain your justification. That would be a clear distinction.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's critical that we make that distinction - that we understand that good works flow out of justification, and that they are in no way a part of it. We're going to unpack that more in just a moment.  
  
To speak from the positive side of things - from our perspective in terms of what is accurate biblically - I want to turn our attention now to chapter 11, paragraph one on justification from the 1689 London Baptist Again, this is going to read identical to the Westminster Confession and the Savoy Declaration. It reads this way: "Those God effectually calls he also freely justifies. He does this, not by infusing righteousness into them but by pardoning their sins and accounting and accepting them as righteous." It's not that righteousness is infused into us and we somehow become inherently righteous, it's that we are counted as righteous. How does this happen? The statement goes on, "He does this for Christ's sake alone and not for anything produced in them or done by them." It's very clear; it's for Christ's sake alone, and it's not because of anything that's produced in us, and it's not because of anything that we have done that God counts us righteous.  
  
We go on. "He does not impute faith itself, the act of believing, or any other gospel obedience to them as their righteousness. Instead, he imputes Christ's active obedience to the whole law and passive obedience in his death as their whole and only righteousness by faith." These words are precise and wonderful that it is by faith; faith is the vehicle, it's the means, it's the mechanism by which the righteousness of Jesus in obeying the Law perfectly, and the merits of his death where he satisfied for our sin and died under the Law, are applied to us. We are now in Christ Jesus and vitally united to him by faith, not by anything that we have done.  
  
The last sentence of the paragraph reads this way: "This faith is not self-generated; it is the gift of God." Salvation, in other words, belongs to the Lord. God does it; we don't do it. We are recipients of the grace of God in Christ Jesus, and we receive the merits and the works and the righteousness, the holiness, the satisfaction of Christ by faith alone. We are saved by Christ. So we are very clear that nothing that we do or anything that's produced in us by way of fruit is the groundwork of our justification and standing before the Lord. It could never be that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Some of you may be brand new to Confessional Theology, and you may have stumbled across this looking up something or someone referred this to you; you need to understand that we aren't moving from a Roman system to another system. You need to understand that the confessions are what we would say are the abbreviations of Scripture. It helps systematize and give a brief explanation that is historically accepted by confessing believers. At the bottom of what Justin just read, if you were to take all of these Scriptures and print them out, you would come to the same conclusion. You have Romans 3:24, you have Ephesians 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Philippians 3:8, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 1:12, and Romans 5:17 just to name a few. You take one paragraph that says what these Scriptures are teaching is this, and it helps provide an explanation.  
  
This is the same thing as a sermon. If you were to preach a sermon, you are bringing clarity to the all of Scripture.  
  
Justin Perdue: Correct. What confessions are doing essentially is Systematic Theology. What Systematic Theology is to survey the Scripture in its totality and say this is what the Bible teaches about this doctrine.  
  
In particular, chapter 11 is on justification in our confession. All it is a group of men situated in the 17th century looking to other like-minded believers who have also produced very similar confessions, and they corporately look to the Bible and ask, "What does the Bible teach about justification and how can we, in a very clear way, articulate this in a number of paragraphs to summarize the Bible's teaching on this topic?"  
  
We're not saying that confession is the authority; we're saying the Bible is the authority, and this confession is a helpful, historically tested document that gives us some clarity and sheds some light and illuminates Scripture for us. So we are doing the exercise of theology as a corporate group, as a people who live now, and we're doing it with people who are long dead. We're looking to the Bible to understand what it says about, in this case, justification.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's what _sola scriptura_ means - that the authority of what Scripture means comes from Scripture itself, which is contradicting to the Roman Catholic theology where the authority rests within the interpretation of the church.  
  
To help you understand, word it this way: what does the Bible say about justification? Here's a helpful conclusion from all of Scripture. This is one of the things that, after reading this paragraph, and this is also what the Roman Catholic church will point to immediately as well, one will say, "What about James 2? It's very clear there that James says you have to do works well."  
  
They have a paragraph that helps explain that - that's the next paragraph in the 1689 London Baptist Confession. It's in 11.2\. "Faith that receives and rests on Christ and his righteousness is the only instrument of justification." Just to clarify, and they point to Romans 3:28 for that, "Yet it does not occur by itself in the person justified, but it is always accompanied by every other saving grace. It is not a dead faith but works through love." This is Galatians 5:6 and then in James 2:17\. What they're saying is it is the result of the grace received; it cannot be the ground of the grace received. Meaning that those who are justified, who are regenerate, who received the gift of faith - Ephesians 2:8-9 - from that gift, believers will see the fruit of the Spirit in their life. It does not say at what level, it just says it will be evident there. That's where we wholeheartedly believe that Christians will do good works. We're never told to what level, but the evidence of it is there.  
  
As I said before, what the confession is trying to help the believer understand from Scripture is that it is separating how you're standing before God versus your obedience to God. You cannot mix those two together. It's called the _ordo salutis_, right? It's the order in which you are saved and part of that salvation is you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is faith, you are regenerated and you come to life. Once you come to life, then you obey. What the Roman Catholic system is doing here is that they're mixing the two and requiring both for right standing before God.  
  
Justin Perdue: Let me interject something before you go to canon 30 of the Council of Trent. If we're going to talk about the distinctions between us and Rome - Reformation Theology and Rome - I have a couple of thoughts. First thought is, as we've already mentioned at least once in the podcast, is that no Roman Catholic is going to dismiss faith there. Any running Catholic is going to acknowledge the place of faith, the value of faith, and the goodness of faith in Christ. "Yes, I believe in Jesus. I've been taught to believe in Christ." When we read, for example, Paul's letter to the Galatians, it's very clear that in that context where Paul is writing to the church and saying, "I can't believe how quickly you've turned to a different gospel, not that there is another one," he's riding into a situation where it's not as though faith in Jesus has been rejected altogether. It's that works of the Law have been put next to faith in Christ as what's required for righteousness. So it's believe in Jesus, but also be circumcised; believe in Jesus, but also do these works of the Law.  
  
Roman Catholicism is as another example. There's nothing new under the sun is another example of what I would call Jesus-plus Theology. Yes, believe in Christ but also cooperate with the grace of God and the sacraments. Yes, believe in Jesus Christ, but also do these good works and be obedient in these ways so that you will preserve or increase your justification. If you're not doing these things or not doing them well enough, then there will be payment required from you in some capacity.  
  
Second thought, which will transition nicely to canon 30, is that the difference in one sense between us and Rome is that we understand that salvation, the work of redemption, is over. It's completely done. It's finished. When Jesus on the cross said it is finished, he meant what he said. Atonement has been accomplished. Satisfaction for sin has been made. Righteousness has been fulfilled, and now it is counted in its totality and its completeness. It is counted to wretched sinners by faith; it has nothing to do with what they've done, has nothing to do with what they will do, or with what's going to be produced in them. They are saved by Jesus, and it's applied to them by faith. It's over.  
  
We talk about the gospel being objective. It's outside of us. We talk about the gospel being a declarative reality in that it is done, and Rome does not believe that because there is still something the sinner has to do because it's not really complete.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just to read a section of the next paragraph, which is 11.3, it says, "By his obedience and death, Christ fully paid the debt of all those who are justified. He endured in their place the penalty they deserved. By this sacrifice of himself in his bloodshed on the cross, he legitimately, really, and fully satisfied God's justice on their behalf." Here they quote Hebrews 10:14 which says, "For by a single offering," which is Christ, "he has perfected," meaning that something can't be perfect if it's still lacking, "he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."  
  
What we are saying is that Scripture teaches that the blood of Christ shed on the cross was sufficient. It was the final sacrifice. There is no longer a need for animal bloodshed. There are no longer sacrificial systems. It is Jesus Christ blood on the cross. It's always been Jesus Christ blood on the cross. When the gospel was preached to Adam and Eve, it was the sufficiency of something outside of themselves. It was never the animal sacrificial system. So the moment that you say you need something else...  
  
Let me put this back to the Council of Trent. Canon 30 says, "If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the doubt of eternal punishment is so blotted out to every repentant sinner that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema." So they make it very clear that they don't believe that Jesus Christ's sacrifice... It's almost like Jesus paid for most of it, now you need to do your part. That's how they're wording it. Let me just clarify as it's a little bit older English. It says, "If anyone says that after the reception of the grace," so what they're saying is after you received justification, "the guilt is so remitted," it's so gone, it's not there, "and the debt of eternal punishment," what you still owe God, "is so blotted out to every repentant sinner that no debt of temporal punishment remains." What they're saying is even after you received forgiveness, you still have a little bit of debt left to be to pay, and that's what you pay off here while you're here. If you can't fully pay it off here, then you've got to pay it off in purgatory. That is not what Scripture at large teaches; the authority of Scripture teaches that we have received full payment when Christ died on the cross.  
  
Justin Perdue: Full payment. Then also, as we've dated from 11.1 and 11.3 from the 1689, it's the payment piece but it's also his active obedience to the Law. So the penalty has been paid in full, and all of the righteousness and holiness required has already been counted to us.  
  
This maybe a good place to transition to some of the concerns that we have about evangelicalism today. Even some monks would claim the label of Reformed. The idea that the penalty is fully paid is not that controversial, but then I think sometimes the truth that the holiness and the righteousness required is already ours in Jesus produces some ripples and some waves for many people. We say this all the time on Theocast: we're very clear that it's over and Jesus has done it and all the righteousness and holiness required is already ours, we're resting in Christ, and there will be fruit of the Spirit produced in us and our lives will be transformed. That's true. But we are already safe and there is nothing left to be done; there is no work left to be performed. When you start talking like that, people wig out and they charge you with all kinds of things. The most common thing that will be hurled at people like us is that we are against the Law, we're antinomian, we don't think that Christians need to concern themselves with how they live, and that's not what we're saying. We don't need to go there right now. I want to go back just to highlight a huge problem that I think exists in evangelicalism even amongst those that might claim the label Reformed.  
  
Go back to that session 6, canon 24 piece from the Council of Trent where there's the language about justification and how our good works preserve and increase the justification obtained by faith. No Protestant, no evangelical is going to say that our justification is increased by our good works, but there is a lot of teaching and preaching and counseling out there that makes it sound a lot like our justification is preserved by our obedience and good works. There are a lot of preaching and teaching that's done in a sort of threatening way where it sounds this way: if you're not obeying appropriately, if you're not dedicated enough or disciplined enough or sincere enough, and if your good works are not there to the extent that they need to be - again, I'm not sure who defines that standard - but if there are not enough good works there, then you may very well not be justified. Yeah, you've trusted Christ, but now you better get to work as though there is something left to be accomplished.  
  
In light of the confessions and the clear teaching of Scripture here at Theocast, we could not be more strongly opposed to that kind of thinking and that kind of teaching that you need to keep yourself in good standing before the Lord through your obedience. Absolutely not. You are in good standing before the Lord in Christ Jesus by faith, now live in him. Of course we're going to concern ourselves with what the Scripture says about how we're to live. We obey now because we can, we've been delivered from the dominion of sin and we're now in Christ by faith and had been vitally united to him and raised to walk in newness of life. Praise the Lord.  
  
But we're not doing any of those things for merit, and we're not doing any of those things to keep ourselves justified. We're not doing any of those things to contribute somehow to our final salvation. We understand that secure. It's, it's absolutely over to the extent that Christ is sitting down in heaven.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This always comes from a concern that if you won't take serious the responsibility of Christianity, if you're assured... They're coming from a good place - they want people to take serious the holiness of God, and they want people to take serious their own holiness. But the mistake that you make is motivating people out of fear when the gospel removes all fear and doubt. There is no doubt and there is no fear for those... Let me quote Scripture to you, "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." That means you cannot be condemned, which removes fear and doubt because fear and doubt come from an insecurity: will I be condemned for this? Can I be counted guilty? And Paul says, you will not be counted guilty, not for past, present, or future sins. Because if you are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, if you're an adopted child by faith, you have zero reasons to fear or doubt. Now, some of you may think you can just test the grace of God and go on sinning. Paul says, "May it never be."  
  
I understand the motivation behind it. I don't agree with it, but it is logical. Chad Bird wrote this book called up _Upside Down Spirituality_ because it is - the world thinks you should believe about God this way, and then you read the Bible and it's flipped; it's the exact opposite. You must die to live. You must give up all to gain all. This is a complete contradiction of logic.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's counterintuitive to us. We think that in order to produce righteous living, there has to be some sort of skin in the game; there has to be some sort of motivation in terms of escape of punishment or merit, and the Scripture says no, that this is actually supernatural. This is something that the Holy Spirit of God produces in those who are born again. The redeemed obey not out of fear and not for merit, the redeemed obey because they're safe, because they've been united to Jesus because they're changed, because they love God, because it's for their joy and for their good, it blesses their neighbor - I could go on and on and on. This is why the redeemed obey.  
  
I want to make an observation really quickly before I pivot to one last conversation piece for this regular portion of the podcast. What you said about Rome is right. There was a concern that people live morally upright lives and live lives that are characterized by holiness, and this has always been true throughout the history of the church. There has been a number of what I would call holiness movements over the last 2000 years. They all are concerned with this issue.  
  
If you tell people that it's over and that there's nothing that they must do in order to be saved, then people will not live in an upright fashion. People are going to run off into licentiousness. They're going to sin the daylights out of the thing, so we can't tell them that. We've got to really put some weight on them to obey and to be holy. I could name all kinds of movements that would be characterized by this. Methodism is one. Wesleyan Theology was a response to Reformation Theology. "We can't tell people this or they're going to live licentiously." The entire project of revivalism is all centered around this, and it's critical that we understand that the evangelical church in America hails from all of that. It is so interwoven with not only pietism, which is something that we talk about all the time, but revivalism is just part of the DNA of the evangelical church.  
  
So the evangelical church in America, by and large, is a holiness movement; it's very concerned with moral transformation. We want to say that we're all for moral transformation; we're all for the fruits of the Holy Spirit. We are standing on the tabletops and are pounding the desk, so to speak, to contend for the truth of the gospel and the sufficiency of Christ to save sinners.  
  
The next thing that I will make an observation on...we'll see where this goes and we'll wrap this up soon. I think we can look back over the last decade and see very clearly some really concerning tendencies amongst evangelicals. Around 2012 or 2013, and some may be familiar with this, there are rows of really intense, even ferocious, debates amongst evangelicals - in particular amongst the Calvinistic evangelicals. It was over the issue of sanctification. The issues were prompted by some moral failures of some prominent pastors. But then it became this conversation about whether sanctification is the process by which we are being conformed to the image of Jesus and being made more holy. Is that something where God alone does the work or is it something where we do work along with God? Is it monergistic - one worker being God, or is it synergistic - which has two workers, God and us? Many well-meaning Calvinistic evangelicals became Roman Catholic in how they started to talk about obedience and sanctification during that time. There were all kinds of well intended but really unhelpful overreactions to some prominent failures, and some of the things that were being said and written bore bad fruit in the evangelical church - and many people don't really have the tools with which to discern them. They're not equipped to be able to discern all of these things. Whenever you start to weave works into the groundwork of salvation in any way, you are making your way back to Rome and you are standing against the flow of Protestant Reformation Theology.  
  
There were many guys that were writing and saying stuff seven or eight years ago, and are still maintaining those positions that you might acquire the right to eternal life by faith alone, but you will be finally saved by faith plus works.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The sad part is it's not even over. There are still people writing things like that today. We've made mention to them in the past, and maybe we'll put them in the notes here. We made comments about recent articles by Mark Jones, John Piper, and even Kevin DeYoung. This concerns where they are not being clear and because of their lack of clarity, they cause confusion.  
  
What's interesting to me is that every evangelical believes that God is sovereign flat out. It would be hard to be evangelical if you deny the sovereignty of God. It would be really complicated in your theology. That means to be sovereign is to know and do whatever it is that you want. So God is all knowing and He can do whatever He wants, no one can stay his hand - Daniel 4:39\. When someone tells me that God has to look to your good works to determine the genuineness of your faith, that means that God doesn't know something, that He is dependent upon you to determine His actions so He will determine that you basically deserve salvation because you did enough good works. That is a reason to boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that you receive the gifts of faith by grace so that you don't boast. At the end of your life, you walk up to Jesus and you say, "Obviously I'm a believer because look at what I did for you." You now have a reason to boast - and this is what Justin said earlier: salvation is of the Lord. Ephesians 2: God knows before the foundations of the world who He chose that would be in Him, that would be in Christ. He never looks to your obedience to determine your justification ever.  
  
Now, the church looks to your obedience to determine whether your confession meets your regeneration. This is where church discipline comes into play. This is where Galatians 5 and 6 come into play because if our brother is caught sin and if they're unwilling to repent, then we have to treat them as an unbeliever - meaning that they need to be treated like they need the gospel again. But God does not need your good works and never will look to your good works to justify you.  
  
So when someone tells me at the end of your life, God's going to look at you - this is exactly what has been told by the men that I have mentioned before - that God, at the end of your life, will look to see if you have enough godliness to determine whether you're His child or not, that sounds like a God who doesn't know His own children. It doesn't sound like a God who knows to whom He has set His heart on to save.  
  
Justin Perdue: God does know all of His own. Even Matthew 7 comes to mind when people come to Jesus and say, "Lord, I did all these things." And He says, "Depart from me, I never knew you." It's very clear that He knows who His own are.  
  
I think a very good observation about that text could be made - that I don't have time to unpack right now - that those people are claiming that their good works in Jesus name is the reason that they should be accepted.  
  
I have a couple of texts that come to mind - and we'll wrap it up with this. Speaking to the biblical principle that we are not to boast in ourselves in any way, but boast in Christ in God alone, Jon already mentioned Ephesians 2\. I'm also mindful of two other passages from the apostle Paul. One is 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 where he says that because of God, we are in Christ Jesus. There again we have the sovereignty of God everywhere. Because of God, we're in Christ Jesus who has become to us wisdom from God, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. Jesus is wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.  
  
Paul's conclusion is, "so that as it is written," he cites Jeremiah 9, "'Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.'" That is beautiful. Jesus is absolutely sufficient to save, and he's done it all. What does that produce? It produces doxology, praise of God, and it produces boasting in the Lord and not in anything you've done.  
  
Another text: 1 Timothy 1:15-16\. Paul talks about how he is the foremost of sinners and how God has shown him great mercy in Christ. And he says that the mercy and the patience of Christ that was shown to him, as the foremost, was to display the riches of Christ patience to all the saints who would ever trust in him for salvation.  
  
Paul's point is this: "I'm the foremost of sinners, and Jesus has been patient and merciful and gracious as the day is long to me. He will be to you also." Where does that lead Paul? 1 Timothy 1:17\. It leads him to doxology, to the King of the ages, the only one be praise and honor and glory forever.  
  
This is the point, and this is the Reformation doctrine too: salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. It's clearly there in the Bible, and we have nothing to boast then because we don't do anything. God does it, and God has saved us, and we praise Him and thank Him, and we rest in Jesus.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I have more written on my board that we're not going to get to in the regular podcast. This is why we offer premium content for our members. This is just a simple way for you to help support what we're doing here at Theocast - a monthly way in which we continue the Reformation through all of the different mediums that we have through books and articles.  
  
We have a class that's coming soon, a class that we're putting together, that we will announce later. It's coming in about a month and we're going to make that a part of our membership as well. If you want to know more about that, you can go to wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and you can learn there. We also have a lot of free episodes there, and also a free book, _Faith vs. Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest_, where we actually unpack a lot of what we've said today.  
  
Thank you for listening. We'll see you over in the members' podcast.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-back-to-rome-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-back-to-rome/)

---

### MEMBERS: Racism, Injustice, and the Church(Transcript)

*Published: June 10, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-racism-injustice-and-the-churchtranscript*
*Tags: Church, Racism, Social Justice*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-racism-injustice-and-the-church/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. Before we get into anything else discussion wise, we do want to thank you, our members, for your generous and ongoing support of Theocast. We really couldn't do what we're doing without you. We're encouraged to see the membership growing in these days and we pray that continues. Please continue to spread the word yourself: share this content with other people and encourage them to listen. Word of mouth is a great way to see ministries like Theocast grow. Thank you for your support and all the things that you are doing to spread this message of the Reformation and the sufficiency of Christ to weary saints and sinners who need it.  
  
Something that we want to do now, as we transition into this member section, is to first of all say that when you send us emails, we read them. We've gotten a number of emails in the last week. Plus, as a number of things have been going on in our culture - the things surrounding George Floyd and even the incident in Central Park last week just a day or two before George Floyd's murder, and then all of the protests, looting, and everything that's happened since - we've read your emails and we've seen where you guys have expressed deep grief, heartache, pain, and wrestling. And this is coming and I'm fine to say this: these emails are coming from white and black members of the Theocast. We are acknowledging those things and seeing those things. We want to say to you that we hear you, that we are grieving and weeping alongside you and, as Jimmy was even talking about earlier, lamenting what's going on in our culture and in our land and even in the church.  
  
We do not claim to have all the answers. We hope that what was said during the regular portion of the podcast was helpful. What we want to do now is pivot a little bit and aim to encourage one another, the three of us and you, as you listen, with the promises that God has made us in His word and ultimately the hope of the new heaven and the new earth where we will be with God forever because of Christ and what he's done.  
  
That's where we're headed. I hope it's encouraging.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This last Sunday, during COVID, I've been working through Hebrews 11 and 12, and this last week we covered just two verses: 12 and 13\. Where the writer of Hebrews has been so far is, culturally speaking, these dear people have undergone severe persecution for their faith. They have publicly claimed Christ. They want to go back to the Law. They want to go back to Judaism. They've also experienced suffering not for religion's sake, but just because of what's going on. So the writer of Hebrews is trying to help them understand that their real hope is not in the Law, it's not going back to Judaism, and that Christ is their only satisfaction. This is what all chapter 11 is about. And then in chapter 12, he's looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. He says that if you're unwilling to do this, God will discipline you, but he uses the word Father and love and child and adoption. So that's the context. He's written an entire letter. At the end of the letter, he has given them all of this motivation and he tells the church this, verse 12, "Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what it is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed."  
  
What you may hear him say is, "Just pick yourself up and get back to work." No, actually he is quoting Isaiah and in the context, the listener would have known that's from Isaiah's prophecy. They would have known also from Isaiah's prophecy about the new heavens and the new earth.  
  
Let me just read this to you really quick because I remember reading this in my study and I just became overwhelmed. I was watching the riots in Nashville. There's a police officer in my own church that was on duty during the time. Then I read this and it just brought this overwhelming sense of comfort. It says, "The wilderness and the dry land shall be glad; the desert shall rejoice and blossom like the crocus; it shall blossom abundantly and rejoice with the joy and singing. The glory of Lebanon shall be given to it, the majesty of Carmel and Sharon. They shall see the glory of the LORD, the majesty of our God. Strengthen the weak hands and make firm the feeble knees. Say to those who have an anxious heart, 'Be strong; fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you.' Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then shall the lame man leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute sing for joy. For waters break forth in wilderness, and streams in the desert; the burning sand shall become a pool, and the thirsty ground springs of water; and the haunt of the jackals, where they lie down, the grass shall become reeds and rushes."  
  
It just goes on to describe the new heavens and the new earth. He even uses this phrase where he says there will be no sighing. There will be no moments of seeing the suffering of the world and everybody is exhausted by what they see. He says, pick yourself up not because you must do it to enter in the land. No, he says pick yourself up because this is what's waiting for you. You can finish this race. This is Hebrews 12\. The whole thing is about running the race.  
  
Then there's a very important part. So to my brothers and sisters who have written in and said, "I am so overwhelmed. I'm so beaten down. I don't know how to handle all of this." We, as Christians, need to understand that we don't run this race alone. What we say and do directly affects our brothers and sisters around us. This is why the writer of Hebrews says straighten the paths. What he's saying is to clear the way of anything that can cause someone who's already lame to be put out of joint. If your foot's out of joint, you aren't running anywhere. What it's saying is we need to clear the clutter of anything that distracts us from what the whole thing is about: Jesus Christ and him crucified, our hope. So my encouragement to you, brothers and sisters, is that all of this shame and guilt and all of this oppression that you're feeling, let me help you understand that this is not it. We won't fix these issues here - the issue of race and anything else - any kind of sin is not going to be fixed in this earth. The only hope of satisfaction that we can have right now is our union and hope in Christ. That is the goal of Theocast: to remove the clutter off of the path so that as you walk down, you might find rest and peace again, that your strength might be restored. In trying to fix the culture, you will only frustrate yourself, but leading the culture to Christ, you will find joy and rest.  
  
Justin Perdue: The encouragement would be to continue pointing one another to Christ in the church and continuing to love one another, bear one another's burdens and sorrows, and weep with each other.  
  
Jon, you mentioned Hebrews 12 and I immediately think Revelation 21\. That might be a no-brainer, but it's such a wonderful passage. A promise from the Lord, verses 3-5 or Revelation 21, for example, is that God will be our God, we will be His people, we'll be with Him, and we'll dwell with Him. If we're familiar with the message of Scripture, that reality that the people of God would dwell with God and be in His presence and have a reconciled perfect relationship with Him - that is astonishingly, shockingly good news. Because that's been the goal of all of redemptive history. Then Revelation 21:4 is so tender and sweet that God himself will personally wipe away every tear from our eyes.  
  
So God is the God who sees; He's the God who knows; He's the God who understands. Psalm 56:8, He keeps track of our tossings and He counts our tears. He puts them in His bottle. He is not unaware. He is not a distant, disconnected deity up in the heavens. He knows the suffering that we go through. And Jesus suffered - he was a man of sorrows. God will wipe away every tear from our eyes.  
  
Then Revelation 21:5, "And he who was seated on the throne says, 'Behold, I am making all things new.'" Praise God. That's why we say, "Come, Lord Jesus," because this is what we need - for Christ to return and to consummately make all things new and right every wrong, which he has promised to do. So we do live from the end of the story backwards. That's how we have hope. We live in light of the end. We're casting our gaze on the Celestial City and the fact that we'll be with Christ forever, we will be with the Lord, and we will be with each other. There will be no more injustice or oppression, no more hatred or malice. We will be perfectly united as the people of God; He will be our God and we will be His people. That's the hope.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I said this to our church last week, that when we look at the gospel, it is the greatest injustice that has ever occurred in the history of the universe. That the son of God - the perfect, holy, righteous, and pure Son of God was crucified in the stead of sinners. So it is foolish to say that God does not care about justice because He absolutely does. God is holy and pure and righteous Himself. He requires blood to be sacrificed to satisfy that righteous and holy wrath against sin. Yet what is so paradoxical is that in order to satisfy justice, the greatest injustice occurred. So we need to be mindful of that, as pastors, that we don't want to write off these things simply, but also we want to recognize the unjust suffering that does occur - and we do so with hope. Right.  
  
As you guys have mentioned, we look at the future hope that we have in Christ and his return - that every tear will be wiped away and every wrong will be made right. Yet we recognize that in the here and now, we are going to continue to see situations like George Floyd riots in the streets that we're seeing today. There will be others to come. These are just keen reminders that the fracturing of sin has gone so deep, and yet ultimately, where does our hope lie? In these things being solved by political and worldly systems? No, our hope lies in the gospel of Jesus Christ, where he says, "Behold, I am making all things new. If anyone is in Christ, the old has gone, the new has come."  
  
Jon Moffitt: I am convinced that the louder and stronger than we can one preach the gospel and love our neighbor, that's what's going to change lives. Somehow we have come to believe that God's mission is to utopia-ize this world - it's not. This world will pass away and with it sin. It is not God's mission to abolish racism in the world. I know I'm going to get myself in trouble for saying that, but you would have to change the hearts of all men of all time and that's not the mission of the church. The mission of the church is to herald Christ and allow the Spirit to change whom He is going to change.  
  
I only have so much words I can say. I only have so much time. So I'm going to trust in the power of God, administered to the church, through the preaching of the gospel.  
  
Justin Perdue: This is a slight shift, but it popped into my mind. I said a little bit about this in the regular podcast but in talking in a more transparent or maybe a less guarded way to our membership, in thinking about how we interact with one another in the church, especially if we're going to have good conversations about injustice, oppression, about issues of race and racism, we talked about how there has to be grace and charity and mercy in that conversation. I'm thinking about this flowing in a couple of directions. There needs to be grace and mercy and compassion from brother to brother, sister to sister. When things are said out of pain that you might not understand, there needs to be grace and compassion and charity for that so that you might not then heap judgment and cast shade upon your brother or sister because he or she said something out of deep pain and anguish of their soul. But then something else that needs to be there is mercy and compassion and charity. When a brother or sister says something out of ignorance and an obvious blind spot, there needs to be grace and charity and compassion for that. If there isn't, if we can't have grace toward each other when we speak out of pain, ignorance, or a blind spot, then we're never going to move forward in this conversation. We've got to be able to do that.  
  
Another thing we have to do is to assume good motivations on our brothers and sisters. I'm not saying ignore sin, but I'm saying assume good motivations in each other; assume that your brother or sister really wants to understand, really wants to come alongside, he or she may be awkward in the way he or she goes about it, something wrong might be said, but we seek to move forward in love as we pursue unity and understanding. That has to be what we do.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Amen. I pray and hope this is encouraging to you. If there's any way that we could be of help or if you guys have any additional thoughts, please feel free to reach out to us. This is a little bit different for us; we don't always jump on cultural topics but when we feel like it could be helpful to lead you to rest in Christ, then we'll definitely try and do that. Please send us any feedback - maybe something we have missed. We would love to have a gracious dialogue if at all possible.  
  
Justin Perdue: Especially for the members, if there are things that you want to press with us or ask for clarification on, please do that. We would look forward to that kind of correspondence.  
  
Our parting shot is to continue to trust Christ, continue to love each other, continue to pursue unity in the Spirit and the bond of peace that we have in the church. Let's pray for one another; let's pray for our land, that God would be merciful. Also, that Christ would return and make all things new.  
  
Thank you for listening to us and we truly and sincerely hope that this has been of some encouragement to you. We do not claim to have all the answers - we're speaking best we can from God's word as three pastors and three struggling saints, just like you, who also are reeling and trying to make up and down of some of these things, and heads and tails of some of these things.  
  
Thank you for your ongoing support. As we've already said, your support means a lot to us personally, but it means a lot for this ministry and for the future of it. Continue to pray along with us that more and more people would come to know the sufficiency of Christ and the rest and the peace that we have in him, which is the only real hope and stead that we have in the midst of life in this fallen world. Much love to you, grace and peace to you all. We look forward to speaking with you again next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/racism-injustice-and-the-church-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/racism-injustice-and-the-church/)

---

### Racism, Injustice, and the Church (Transcript)

*Published: June 10, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/racism-injustice-and-the-church-transcript*
*Tags: 2020*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/racism-injustice-and-the-church/)**  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we have a conversation around a number of the current events that are swirling and things that have happened recently in our culture. We are in the relatively immediate aftermath of the murder of George Floyd, the protests that came from that, and just the dialogue and the conversation that is happening throughout our society. There's a lot of pain, a lot of suffering, and a lot of anguish - and people are reeling from this.  
  
What our hope is in this conversation is to look to God's word as our guide and think about what God has said about these things - about racism, oppression, injustice, and sin - and ultimately to encourage one another toward love and charity in the Spirit and in the church. Also, to point one another, as we always hope to do, to the peace, hope, and the rest that we have in Christ.  
  
Then in the members' area, we speak very personally to our members, including addressing some of the emails that we have received from people who are hurting. We aim to encourage one another with the hope of the new heaven and the new earth and what Christ has secured for us.  
  
We hope this conversation is helpful, clarifying, hope-giving and encouraging for you. So stay tuned.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: For those listening, where we are currently situated in the United States in particular, that is in Minnesota, we are experiencing a high amount of grief, anger, and frustration.  
  
Part of being a theologian of the cross is you call a thing what it is. We saw the horrific unjust killing of George Floyd at the hands of a Minneapolis police officer. That sparked originally peaceful protests, which morphed into looting and arson, which has then spilled over into other large urban areas in the United States.  
  
This past Sunday, it was the first time that our church gathered together again. My sermon was out of Psalm 10\. At the beginning of Psalm 10, the psalmist asked, "Lord, why do you stand so far away?" In the next few verses, he goes on to share about how the wicked are getting away with their wickedness.  
  
One of the things that I said to our church that's interesting to note is it seems like in times of these great tensions, the amount of intense suffering that our nation is going through - because it's not just police brutality, it's not just racism, we also have 40 million jobless claims in the United States right now and over 100,000 deaths to a virus that has no cure - that there is perhaps more suffering now than any time in our generation. Our generation that did not fight in World War II, our generation that did not fight in Vietnam, and our generation were relatively young during the first Gulf War. We are seeing more violence, suffering, and evil reign in our society than perhaps we ever have before.  
  
Something that's interesting is that John Lennon's song "Imagine" has become the anthem of the antitype to suffering in this world. But if you really slow down and listen to the lyrics - "Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try. Imagine there's no hell below us. Imagine there's no countries..." He goes on to list all of these things. What's fascinating about that song, and to consider where we are today, is that essentially what John Lennon is arguing for is to imagine there is no order, imagine there's no absolute truth, imagine there is no God. From a Christian perspective, what makes it rather silly is that it is actually hopeless. It's anti-good news. Psalm 10 tells us what life looks like for those who think that there is no God: they exact their own form of justice; they exact their wickedness upon the lowly, the downcast, and the oppressed.  
  
Today, we want to have a pastoral and sensitive conversation particularly about race, injustice, and the things that we're seeing in the news today. I want to begin by saying this: here at Theocast, we believe that there is a God, we believe that there is absolute truth, and we believe that Jesus Christ is sitting on his throne and he's reigning, even when it doesn't appear that he is. So we want to reject the idea that imagining there's no God and there's no order things mean that everything would go well for us. That's not what we want to imagine at all.  
  
Justin Perdue: Our hope is that there is a God in heaven, that Christ is on the throne, and that there is objective and absolute truth because God is; the order that God has established and the things that God has revealed to us that are for our good are the only good things that we can say in a time like now.  
  
I can speak for all of us when I say that at Theocast, we understand that that racism and injustice, broadly speaking, are from hell - it's evil, it's wicked, and it's terrible. We understand that racism, oppression, and all forms of injustice are results of sin - and by sin, we don't mean an action or a deed that's done, or thoughts that are thought or anything like that - by sin we mean a condition or a state. It's the fall of man that we read about in Scripture, particularly in Genesis 3, that has given rise to hatred, malice, racism, oppression, and injustice. We want to be really clear that we stand against all of those things, because we understand them to be of the evil one. They are not of God and God hates those things. We do as well.  
  
The next thing that I would say, to start, is it's very clear as you survey the landscape, particularly America for this conversation, is that there are people who are hurting terribly. There is deep suffering, intense pain, and much agony that have been experienced and are being felt by the masses right now in a particular way. There are certain segments of our population - I'm thinking about our African-American brothers and sisters - who in a pointed way are in pain. We want to acknowledge the pain and suffering that people are experiencing. Our hope in this conversation and always is to never minimize or dismiss the pain and suffering of others. Those are some starting points from me before we launch into anything else that we're going to say.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It is definitely painful to watch all of this. It breaks your heart. You never want to see anyone suffer. You don't want to see women feel that they are belittled and degraded. I've lived in cultures where the Japanese people and the Mexican people have been degraded. There is suffering everywhere. The victims of sin are massive - everyone is the result and everyone is the victim of it; it does not pick and choose, but it spreads its wings and covers all. I think it's appropriate when Paul commissions the church to say, "You need to weep with those who are weeping." In my own church last week, I've had to spend time in sorrow with people because their families have been the victims of COVID-19, and some of their loved ones have died. Then within our own city, just what's going on with the different issues and people's understanding. There seems to be a crossfire. And when sin gets involved, what ends up happening is we shoot at each other instead of listening; we end up shooting at each other instead of being gracious towards each other. We become unreasonable. That's not to say that every man around these microphones have it all under control and we're perfectly sanctified and reasonable, we've never done unreasonable things, and we've never had unreasonable thoughts. That is just absolutely ridiculous. This is why we too claim to be an equal need of grace as any racist that's out there, any murderer that's out there, and anyone that's ever degraded a woman. They are in equal need of grace as we are.  
  
No one ever puts a shield of their own righteousness between them and the Father, because it will be torched. You do not have righteousness.  
  
Justin Perdue: We are aware that we are three middle-class white guys, and we do not claim to understand everybody's experience existentially. But our confidence in even having this conversation, as daunting as it is, is that God has revealed Himself and He has revealed truth in His holy word. Being Christians and being Reformed in our understanding of theology, we do uphold sola scriptura - that Scripture is sufficient and it's adequate for us to look into it and understand the things of God and His ways with us, to understand ourselves rightly, and to be able to assess sin. God has told us what is good in His word. Our hope is to look into God's word and be able to speak from it, not so much from our own experience, but to point people to Scripture and ultimately to the point of Scripture, which is who Jesus Christ is.  
  
Our hope too is to weep with those who are weeping, and to come alongside and help bear other's burdens. That's the goal for all of us in our churches and in our lives, broadly speaking. We hope this conversation has that kind of feel to it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're deeply saddened by circumstances, but we're also saddened by responses from Christians that are on social media - even well-known Christians.  
  
You may not have heard of this phrase, but there's a concept called virtue signaling. It is basically when you publicly express your position, or you were demonstrating one's good character or moral correctness on a particular issue.  
  
I think they're always in good intentions. Anytime I see someone who is virtue signaling, they're not trying to add to the fuel; they're not trying to add to the issue. I think, in their own way, they're trying to bring clarity. But in doing so, they're actually causing more problems. What I mean by this is that you want the world to know your position and so you put it out there. You say things that aren't biblical or helpful; you're actually only adding to the confusion in the circumstances.  
  
I've unfortunately seen this way too much where we don't think through what we communicate from a biblical standpoint. We just throw statements out there so the world can see we're against racism or the degradation of women. How is that being perceived by those who are experiencing the degradation and racism?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: One of the reasons why virtue signaling can be so dangerous, and I'm going to speak particularly to the Christian brethren, is that it can destroy unity within the greater church. Virtue signaling happens inside and outside of the church. Far be it for me to expect Christian and Christ-like behavior from non-believers, so I'm not even going to speak to that. We can't expect it from that sphere. But within the church, it's the ultimate sub-tweet. If you're on Twitter, you're familiar with that language where you tweet something out in response to somebody without directly addressing that person. What virtue signaling does or what it can do is it can create more disunity because it postures yourself to look better than others.  
  
Let me be the first to say that I am not perfect in this area. I understand that getting on social media and doing a 240-character rant feels really, really good. I get that. But at some point we all have to be mindful that throwing out our best tweet of righteousness can create this tier system where the posture is, "I am better than you because I have thought of this when perhaps you haven't; let me throw out my virtue." Nobody does vice signaling. Nobody airs out his or her own dirty laundry. Yet that's actually one of the things that the Scripture commands us to do: to confess our sins.  
  
Justin Perdue: The term virtue signaling means that we're drawing attention to what we perceive to be our own virtue, and that's a problem biblically. It's not that how we live doesn't matter - it matters, of course, how we live; God gives us plenty of instruction in His word to the church in the New Testament about how we're to live with one another.  
  
I'm mindful of the apostle Paul in Philippians 3 where he talks about how any righteousness that would be his, he considers it as less than nothing. He considers it as rubbish because what he is concerned with is the righteousness of God that is found through Christ by faith.  
  
Generally, it's not good when we, as believers, attempt to showcase or parade around our own righteousness or virtue and condemn other people by an indirect implication.  
  
It's fine for us to try to correct misunderstanding - we want to do that. The three of us do that all the time as preachers of God's word. But what we want to try to do is to point people positively to what God has prescribed in His word rather than just dropping shame bombs all over the place, while thinking that's going to move the needle in people's minds. As you brothers have pointed out, that kind of talk and rhetoric only serves to foster more division; it certainly doesn't bring unity.  
  
That's one of the things that has grieved me this week - in addition to being horrified by things that I've seen in videos posted online, and being grieved by the pain that I see others experiencing - is seeing the division that is out there even amongst God's people.  
  
Some of the rhetoric have been really hard for me to read. And that's coming from all kinds of people - and many of these people I respect. That has been tough.  
  
Jon Moffitt: David Zahl and his book _Seculosity_... I don't think it covered racism, but he was talking about how our culture has become a religious culture, even though it may not be centered around God or church. They use the tactics of religion - and some of the tactics of a false religion or a bad religion, I would say, is shaming. "If you don't hold my perspective, you are not going to be morally acceptable. Because of that, I'm going to shame you into my perspective." We use these tactics. If I don't hold your exact position on whatever it is - it could be abortion, gender equality, or in this case, it could be racism - we shame each other.  
  
The sad part is that Christians get involved in this where we get so wrapped up in what's going on. Just to be clear, in no way, shape, or form is Theocast trying to lower the situation; we agree that the situation is horrible and what's going on should not be going on. We're not even saying racism doesn't exist in our culture; racism exists around the world and it's existed for thousands of years. This isn't new to our culture; cultures have been dealing with this for decades. This is not a new circumstance and it's not a new issue. We're not the first culture to deal with it. But what we cannot do, as believers, is disconnect to the hope that we have in Christ and create this new subculture wherein this new religion says, "Unless you hold my exact position on how to deal with this, then you are basically morally and ethically wrong." That is dangerous and it is happening.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's good for us to point out sin and it's good for us to encourage people to repent of sin. But then we cross a line where we start this shaming thing. Pointing out sin and shaming people are different things. In the church, to point out sin is good and to shame people is harmful. It harms unity, it promotes division, and it really does not help at all.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We've been talking about evil and suffering ever since the coronavirus outbreak, and it just keeps morphing into something new. We talked about this a few podcasts back where, as a Christian culture, we've lost the posture of lament. I've seen the video of George Floyd, I've also seen videos of rioters senselessly beating other people, and I just can't do it anymore - it's absolutely horrible, in particular, the George Floyd situation. We have lost the posture of lament that can we just sit with a moment and weep with those who weep, mourn with those who mourn, and cry out to God and ask Jesus to return quickly. What our posture can be is, "Lord, have mercy. Christ, have mercy." We've been praying that as a church weekly. What we can tend to do is, rather than lament and cry out to God in prayer, we can begin pointing the finger and say, "If you would have done this, we wouldn't be here."  
  
Certainly there are nuanced conversations we can have within that. But as Christians, prayer is the outworking of faith; as people of faith, we get on our knees and we plead with the Lord to shed His mercy on His people. That posture of lament is so keen in this time. Granted, we can do some soul searching and ask ourselves the difficult questions like whether I have contributed to this within my own context. We can do that kind of soul searching. But ultimately, that kind of soul searching needs to be lived out within the body of the church. It's not an isolated thing.  
  
Jon, I think you wanted to kind of shift the conversation to the church in general.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Absolutely. This conversation has been going on for quite a while. I remember back at T4G when they brought this topic up - well, they kind of hijacked the conference and made it about racism - but it started this conversation about the role of the church in racism and it really sparked the conversation about a lot of cultural issues. What's the church's role in social justice? In hunger? In abortion and adoption? Gender roles? There is so much that's pulling at the church and the mission of the church.  
  
I will tell you that all of the issues that we're struggling with today, the New Testament church struggled with as well. It's not like the church is in a context that it's never been in before - the church has actually been in this context before. I believe that in those contexts, Paul, Peter, and James spoke to the context that experienced racism and degradation of women: there was prostitution, there were orphans, and all of that was going on. Yet the mission of the church still remained.  
  
Is it the church's responsibility in culture to abolish all of these issues? That's really where the conversations would come. I want to speak into this because there is a lot of pressure on pastors that if you aren't relevant, you aren't kind, you aren't loving, you aren't reaching your culture, if you aren't emphasizing one of these issues from the pulpit, if you weren't preaching back against racism on a weekly basis in the pulpit, then you, you are not advancing the great commission. If you are not trying to have a diverse church where there's a diversity of ethnicity in your church, then you aren't having a relevant church; where if you're only having a white church, then you actually are adding to the problems that are already plaguing our country.  
  
I would love for us to talk about and think through these issues. They are very sensitive - I can already feel the bows being stretched with the arrows aimed towards us, the criticisms coming our way. But I think these are relevant questions that we need to answer.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We don't want to lose sight of some of the things that are key to Theocast, and one of those is indicatives and imperatives. As we think about combating racism, doing soul searching, calling out some of the grievous evils that we see in our society, we want to make sure that those things are rooted in the indicatives. When we call evil evil, and when we call racism evil, and when we look at these things and call people to repentance, why do we do that? We do that because of the indicative truths about God - that He's holy, He's righteous, and He's pure. Yet God, by his Son, Jesus Christ, has reconciled the world to Himself. Because of the blood of Christ shed for sinners on their behalf, because of his perfect righteousness imputed to us by grace alone, through faith alone, we realize that combating racism or social injustice is not a salvation issue in that if we do not do these things to some arbitrary standard, we are not saved. Rather we look at it through the lens of us being saved because of Christ's work on our behalf. When we are faced with it, we can call it what it is - we can call evil evil, we can call sin sin.  
  
The third use of the Law is helpful here. Racism, mistreatment of the poor, police brutality - these are all sinful things. As Augustus said, what is sin? Sin is self turned inward on itself. On the other hand, what God has laid out for us in His Law is to love God and to love our neighbor. Those are two very outward-oriented postures, not inward-oriented. Again, we want to be sensitive and nuance that we are for racial reconciliation, if you will. We are for those things. We are for diversity. We celebrate that.  
  
I was telling my son the other day that in heaven, we will be with every color. It is foolish to simply say things like, "I don't see color. There's only one human race." I understand the sentiment behind those things, but they're often more unhelpful than they are helpful. It's very flattening. We want to embrace those who look different than us.  
  
Justin Perdue: Galatians 3 is in view in this where Paul will say that there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, neither slave nor free, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. What he's not doing there is saying that those distinctions don't exist. Of course, there are men and women. There are different ethnicities, tribes, peoples, and nations. There are different roles that we play in society.  
  
What he is saying is that we are one in the body of Christ in that Christ has torn down the dividing wall of hostility. We all stood equally ruined and bankrupted by sin, and now we all stand equally righteous by faith in Christ and what he has done on our behalf. If we were to make a statement that there is no such thing as race, or there is no such thing as gender, that we're just all one, not only do we flatten the thing, we actually rob God of the glory that He gets in saving people who are male and female, and from different tribes and peoples and languages. We detract from and subtract from the beauty of the church, and the fact that the design of the church is that there is unity in diversity. We really don't do anybody service when we say things like, "We're colorblind," or, "There is no such thing as race or gender." Those things are clear. The situation that is happening that is greater, that is supernatural, that is unity in Christ Jesus by the Spirit - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, and Father overall - this is what we're for.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is true of diversity and humanity: we're all gifted differently, we all have different talents, and we all have different eye colors and hair color. All the diversity creates this glorious unity that we all contribute to because we bring something different. If we were legitimately all the same, then we can only do one thing, but because there is so much that is different, it creates that unity.  
  
I agree with Jimmy in that if you flatten this out, you're removing what God has created - this one humanity that's full of diversity that will all be, gloriously speaking, different languages with different cultures in the new heavens and the new earth. We will all be worshiping by reflecting God in His awesome ability to create this glorious diversity within all the history of the world. So I agree in that I'm not against diversity - I'm for it. What if we only ate one kind of food? There's even diversity in what we eat and we enjoy that diversity.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I'm going to pose this question: should diversity be an active goal of the church? What I mean by that question is should we bank the church's faithfulness on whether or not diversity is being pursued?  
  
We would say that generally, it is a good idea for your church to reflect the neighborhood in which it is situated, but we also want to recognize that Jon, your context in the greater Nashville area, and Justin, your context and the greater Asheville, North Carolina area, are a lot different than mine here in Willmar. We don't have neighborhoods in Willmar. We don't have the such and such neighborhood; we just have Willmar. It's a small town. Ultimately we want to reflect what Willmar looks like, and we want to be a church that reflects what Willmar looks like. It's really difficult, particularly to put that yoke on pastors, to have all of these initiatives laid on them that they don't necessarily have to, that could detract from prayer and ministry of the word, which is ultimately what we believe that they are called to.  
  
I've had conversations with pastors in my own area as they come across these statements that are, pardon the pun, "off color". In terms of the conversation, I do believe it is the responsibility of the pastor to lean into and address those, to be faithful to those, and to be gracious and help people to see a larger picture. At the same time, if we are talking about the preaching of the gospel and then saying a diverse church is equal to that, I think we can do a disservice to both of those things by equating them.  
  
Justin Perdue: I've got two big thoughts that I'll want to share before we're done recording this. I'm going to start with the first one. The second one has to do with a posture that I think would be helpful in the church. But the first, to your question that you threw out a few minutes ago, Jon, in terms of what the church's mission is, I'm going to say this. This is my take; I'm not speaking for you two guys.  
  
I think the mission of the church, biblically speaking and thinking through the history of theology, is the right preaching of the word of God, and the right administration of the sacraments for the salvation of God's elect. That, for me, informs everything that I'm going to do as a pastor. For me, the main thing that I am concerned with, the primary thing always, is the heralding of the word of God - in particular, that means the heralding of Christ crucified for sinners and the righteousness of Christ counted to sinners by faith.  
  
Partly, even in this conversation, if we're going to talk about injustice, oppression, racism, and sin in general, and the wreckage that it has caused in the world, the answer to that is Christ and the gospel. Because when we herald Jesus, we are pushing back against all forms of evil and wickedness. When we preach God's Law, we are, in that sense, condemning all forms of evil and wickedness.  
  
Here's the thing: the only thing that could ever change the hearts of fallen men is the message of Christ. We're preaching something that the Holy Spirit uses to actually transform and change people's hearts and give us new hearts; then the Spirit takes up residence within us. As we behold the Lord Jesus Christ, we're transformed from one degree of glory to another. That's always the primary piece - the sufficiency of Jesus, the power of Jesus, the grace and mercy of Christ, and the patience of Christ towards sinners being heralded all the time.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When you think about speaking back against racism and even virtue signaling, these are all indulgences of the flesh. We are responding fleshly to circumstances, no matter what they are - and the Bible is very clear. It may not say this is how you deal with racism, but it says at the end of Colossians 2, it says that you're trying to use asceticism and all these different rules and regulations to control the indulgence of the flesh, but it won't work. Paul in Galatians 3 also speaks about if you've begun by the Spirit, why do you think you're going to perfect yourself by the flesh by doing these regulations? In Corinthians, he talks about how if you walk by the Spirit, you will not indulge the flesh. The church has a very relevant conversation to all of these circumstances, and it's always pushing us back to faith in Christ; if we look at the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, we look at the message of the gospel as it is unpacked and unfolded, that it transforms us, our thoughts, and our actions. So the mission of the church actually touches any cultural issue you're going to ever find as it relates to sin.  
  
There are certain cultural things that are neither right nor wrong. Whether you buy a Mercedes or whether you buy a Camry - the Bible is not necessarily going to speak to that unless you're doing it out of envy or out of greed. But when it comes to these circumstances, the church absolutely does if it stays on mission and it stays on point, which is administering the word of God to the people of God. It builds them up so that they may love. If you look at racism and the degradation of women, those are issues of love. All of these sins are an issue of not loving your neighbor.  
  
When the church appropriately administers the gospel to its people, Ephesians says that it builds itself up in love. If you want to fight back against racism appropriately, use the church in which God designed it to do. We can at least rescue some. We may not be able to rescue culture, but we'll be at least be able to rescue some.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: A friend of mine said it wisely the other day. I'm sure there are a lot of pastors out there that are afraid to speak on these issues because of the political ideologies that have seeped into their church, which is natural because we're sinful human beings. They're afraid to speak on these difficult, sensitive issues, because they're going to be perceived as being this social justice warrior. It's sad that we've come to this place that politics and political leanings have prevented us from saying and doing inherently Christian things - that God, because of the fact that we were the enemies of God, that He has loved us in Christ, He has pushed us and He calls us now to love our neighbors as ourselves. That is one of our greatest things that we can do on this earth: to love our neighbors. Us three, as pastors, what we are simply calling ourselves to is not radical but rather, it's what the Scriptures talk about. As Jon always emphasized, when he was actively part of planting our church, he said when the church is functioning properly, what is it doing? It's building itself up and love.  
  
To encourage the pastors out there, as much as you want to be involved in the national conversation, the best posture for you right now is probably to be involved in your local church context conversation and what's happening there.  
  
Justin Perdue: Whenever we can't say what the Bible says, that's indicative of a problem. If we can't use biblical language, we've got a theological problem in the church.  
  
A final thought from me before we transition over to the members' area: I talked a second ago about what I understand the mission of the church to be. There are a few thoughts from me on what I would encourage, and this is me speaking for me; I'm not trying to put these words in Jon's mouth or Jimmy's mouth. What I would encourage the posture of the church to be - and it's in line with a lot of the things you brothers have just been saying, and God has been very clear in His word - the main command Jesus gives to us in the church is to love one another. We should seek to love one another. And then also, more broadly, love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Then there's a second command that's likened to it: we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.  
  
We are seeking to love one another most immediately in the church. We are seeking to love our neighbor indiscriminately; we are seeking to love them in as much as we are able. Something that would help all of us is, I'm speaking to the church right now, as we're thinking about loving one another, we should remember that one of the goals in loving each other is to seek understanding because there's a lot of hurt, pain, and strife. There's a lot of misunderstanding out there right now. So for us in the church, to lovingly and graciously seek understanding is a good thing.  
  
In these conversations, mercy and compassion are necessary - and this has to flow both directions. Mercy and compassion make room for the answers you're not expecting. Mercy and compassion gives room for a question that's not stated or worded well, or a question that conveys a blind spot. Mercy and compassion will speak kindly into that situation so that we can actually arrive at greater levels of understanding, empathy, and sympathy for one another.  
  
We would do well to remember, as we've already talked about throughout this episode, the unity that we do have in Christ Jesus, Paul doesn't say you should be one - he tells us we are one. It's that indicative imperative piece where we are simply wanting to live underneath those great indicative realities. You are one in Christ - so we live from that and out of that.  
  
It has been a good conversation for me. I've been encouraged listening to the two of you. I found this episode, as we were talking about recording it, to be a daunting prospect because we all feel the weight of this. This is a sober thing that we're talking about.  
  
Our prayer, as we've said so many times already is Lord, be merciful. Christ, have mercy. Come, Lord Jesus, and make all things right. And until he comes, should he tarry, let's strive to love one another and extend mercy and compassion to our brothers and sisters, and to our neighbor.  
  
We've got more to discuss and we're going to do that over in the members' area. If you're new to Theocast and you don't know what I'm talking about, you can go to our website Theocast.org, and you can find all kinds of things there including information about our total access membership. I believe we still offer a 14-day free trial on that. You can get access to all of the content that's been produced over several years: that includes podcasts, audio content, but also some written content as well. So avail yourselves of that if you so choose. For those of you making your way over to the members' podcast, we will talk with you there.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-racism-injustice-and-the-church-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-racism-injustice-and-the-church/)

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### MEMBERS: Biblical Counseling: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (Transcript)

*Published: June 3, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-biblical-counseling-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-transcript*
*Tags: Biblical Counseling Nouthetic Counseling, Christian Counseling, Counseling, Counseling and the Church*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-biblical-counseling-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast. First of all, thank you for your ongoing support. If you are not downloading your episodes directly to your phone, then you need to go to Theocast.org/members, scroll to the bottom of the page, follow those instructions, and you can now have all of your members premium podcasts, including all of the 300-plus episodes of our back podcast right there on your phone. These are new features that we're trying to work on. We're trying to make sure that our material is easy to access.  
  
As soon as our primer is available, we're going to make it available to you, our members first. So be looking for that. We'll send it out by email and we'll have it available soon on paperback.  
  
I'm excited. I'm very passionate about this next section. It is what drives me. What keeps me going as a pastor is the true nature and purpose of the church and how we can use some helpful models, which has biblical counseling, but also making sure that we keep the church center and understand what it's for.  
  
Justin, I'll let you speak to this a little bit. I know that you partner with a local ministry in your city. Talk to us about how it is that you use this counseling center and your vision of what it could look like in the next 20 years.  
  
Justin Perdue: Our church is four years old. Two and a half years ago, we had a guy join the church who is trained in biblical counseling. He has master's degrees and all that. As he was getting involved and getting to know me, the other elders, and the people in the church, he started to talk about this idea and this vision that he had to start a counseling center. He had surveyed the area and realized that not only is the church scene somewhat bleak in Asheville, but also the biblical counseling scene. By that I mean the healthy kind that we've been describing. It was all so bleak - there just wasn't anywhere to go. He started to talk about it. He said, "I've wanted to start a ministry like this. What do you guys think?" The other elders and myself thought it would be phenomenal. It would be a great thing to do here. This entity could function separately from Covenant Baptist Church, but we're happy to support it and partner with it.  
  
A couple of things. We saw it as an outreach tool because there would be people that would go get counseling there who would hear the gospel in ways that they never had. Even people going to churches would be pointed to Jesus in a way that they never had. We also saw it as a means through which people would be funneled to CBC in terms of a confessional, reformed, Christ-centered, grace-driven church that that's going to do the ongoing work of soul care.  
  
Our hope is to see the Restoration Counseling Center of Asheville go on, continue to grow and thrive, to see people pointed to Jesus, and to see people plugged into a healthy local church where they're going to experience ordinary means ministry, and get ongoing care in a patient and compassionate environment. That's sadly rare for many people. That's what people need when they're going to counseling. They don't even know they need that.  
  
The hope for Restoration is that people will be made aware of their need not just for Christ, but for the church, through this counseling center. That's our vision in a nutshell. We hope that over the course of decades it bears a lot of fruit.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I want to bring a couple of clarifying points. Jon, when you were helping us plant this church, one of the things that you said to our core families all the time is when the church is functioning properly, it is building itself up in love.  
  
Justin, you shared about that counseling center kind of in an outreach-oriented sense. It's important to remember that if somebody came to our church and they said, "We are struggling to put food on the table," there are a few things we can do as a church to help that person. One, we can point them to various resources just in our county, state, and our local NLD entities that can help them. We don't say, "All right, the church is going to pool all their money together and they're just going to give you money". Certainly that could be an approach that we can bless you in that way, but when the church is functioning to build itself up in love, we can use outside means. I don't mean the same ordinary means that we talk about in our gathered worship, but we can use outside means to help individuals, to help people find the help that they need.  
  
I love your example, Justin, because I think it is a prime example of people using a source where they can hear the gospel. As those people come into a sense where they say, "How do I get this all the time?" Here's a church. Here's a local body of believers where it is safe for you to struggle.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the things that transformed my understanding of confessionalism, counseling, and all of it is when you understand the purpose of the church. That in order for a church to function properly, you cannot be introspective in your nature when it comes to your Christian life. You have to understand that your dependence is upon Christ and Christ's people. Because that's where the Bible pushes you.  
  
One of the things that we're doing in our church during this COVID-19, is we're going to be offering marriage and parenting seminars in our community. It's not going for our church, but for those around us so we can bring them in and give them what we would say common sense understanding. Then we help them understand from a Christian perspective that your real hope and real support system is not you being a better husband or wife, or you being a better parent, but it's you receiving growth within a local body. So we'll give them the gospel, we'll give them Christ, and we can give them some common sense of how to stop throwing pots and pans at each other. "This is how you stop yelling at your kid. Ultimately what you need is what's called soul care."  
  
I love the idea of using counseling or even seminars as a way to help people who are confused, who may even know Christ, or may not know Christ, but they're confused about what Christianity looks like. I can bring them in and say, "Let me show you what the Bible actually says about how you should be dealing with your problems." It's through the means that God has provided. And when you're in a good functioning biblical church, you're going to grow in Christ, and these problems are not going to be your problems - they become our problems.  
  
The biggest thing I say to every person that I'm counseling is this: you are never intended to deal with this problem alone. No Christian is to deal with sin alone because that's what we call an Introspective Individuality Christianity. The Christian is not to live the Christian life alone, and if biblical counseling is what leads that person to do that, that's wrong. It's not biblical counseling. That would be unbiblical counseling. The Bible leads you to be a church member and does not lead you to be an individual member.  
  
Justin Perdue: To put a bow on this portion of the conversation, we look at our partnership with Restoration here in the city as an outreach tool to the extent that it is a portion of our missions and outreach budget in terms of how we even categorize it. We consider that support as an outreach kind of expenditure where we are investing these dollars in this entity for the purposes of outreach. At the same time, we will use it because the founder and executive director is a member of our church and may very well one day be on the eldership of our church.  
  
Just a brief word on counseling. This is my perspective; this is not Theocast perspective. For us as elders in our church, what we will often do with respect to meeting with people is we try to do triage when it comes to counseling. Whenever there's a crisis, we will meet with people regularly for a season of time to do that triage work. Then what we want to do as elders is to be able to, in a good way, pass that care off to the church corporately.  
  
Let's say it's a really difficult marriage situation, or somebody's gone through a divorce and they're reeling and they need to be able to process some things over an extended period of time. We may use Restoration here in our area and encourage a member of our church to meet with one of the counselors who are a part of RCC, and they will care for you in conjunction with our elders. You'll sign that paperwork and we'll be updated so that you have somebody to talk to you on a weekly basis or a bi-monthly basis in an ongoing way. We may use it that way, too, because the elders of our church don't have the bandwidth to be doing that kind of ongoing meeting with people on a weekly basis in perpetuity. We've got to be able to jump in and do that triage crisis care, and then go about the regular leading, caring for the church, and we hopefully corporately are caring for each other - as we've talked about building each other up in love and mutually watching over each other. Those are just some snapshots on how we think about some things. Maybe some scenarios when a counseling center might make some sense as a supplement to the ministry of the local church; in conjunction with it, but not apart from it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Even if you think about how hospitals can be, if there is a life-threatening situation, you're not going to say, "Let's take them home and give them soup." You have got to deal with the issue. But they're not going to stay in the hospital because the hospital cured you. You can't stay there. You can't live there. That's not where your home is. So this is where you have counsel from the New Testament that says, "Consider how to build one another up in love and good works... singing songs and hymns and spiritual songs for the sake of building each other up." I believe the church becomes the counseling ministry for the individual Christian who has ongoing struggles, who has this ongoing fight against sin to where each member is a part of that therapeutic helping. Therapeutic is such a bad way of saying it, but that what we say is the normal life flow of the Christian.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Let's be clear because I can hear people asking the question: what does that mean and what does that look like?  
  
The reason why the local church in an ordinary means context is helpful is one, the local church is the place that offers the forgiveness of sins. That is the greatest need that every individual has - to come in and hear the gospel week in and week out to, to be wrecked by the Law and to say you are not good enough. You are not holy enough. You are not righteous in and of yourself. But what we are heralding and putting out to you is Jesus Christ crucified on your behalf, risen for your justification. This is what the church offers you and when Christ is heralded week in and week out. What that does is it creates a culture in your church where it is safe to be a weary sinner-saint, where you can struggle freely and openly because Jesus has offered to the people week in and week out the forgiveness of sin.  
  
When we have complex emotional, and sociological things happening in our lives, we can point people to other places where they can receive additional care and help break down those complex realities.  
  
But the church is here to remind you, "Hey, you are safe. And you are loved and you are forgiven in Christ week in and week out."  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm just excited about what you're saying, Jimmy, is because it's in the church where people receive Christ in the word and in the sacrament every Sunday. Even if we're thinking about ongoing Christian life stuff, and even if we're talking about how real transformation occurs, it occurs that way where people come weekly. They bring their struggles and their failures, and they are given Jesus from the word and they're given Jesus in the table.  
  
In a 2 Corinthians 3 kind of way, as we behold Christ, we are transformed from one degree of glory to another. That's a work that oftentimes happens without our noticing it. We don't see every single tick up the wall. We always want to measure stuff - it doesn't work like that. But then we look up in 10 years and we realized that the Holy Spirit had done something in our lives.  
  
A quick word to something that we were talking about a minute ago. The church building one another - building itself up in love and, and how this sort of counseling happens in an ongoing way in the church. As a group of people gathers every Sunday, and they're sitting under the word, they're coming to the table, they're singing, and they're praying together, we all are confessing the same doctrine. We're under the same authority in terms of elders and pastors and the like. What ends up happening is those people scatter and live life during the week, but they hang out with each other inevitably. And there are all kinds of natural life-on-life counseling that occurs in the church. There are countless conversations that happen in any given week, I would imagine in our church context, where people are just talking about life and marriage and parenting and work and fitness and just commonsense stuff and struggles and victories and everything else. People are being counseled; they're being shaped, they're being encouraged, they're being exhorted, they're being corrected, they're being challenged in appropriate ways - and that's how the church is supposed to function. All of that is happening as saints are being equipped for the work of the ministry on the Lord's Day when we gather.  
  
How do people become better natural counselors in their environment? They keep showing up on Sunday. Then we're better equipped over the course of time to care for each other. That, at least in part, is prescribed in the New Testament.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The breakdown is this: you have a pietistic context where people are constantly being pressed to be self-improving and introspective; make yourself better. You cannot confess sin in those contexts because if you're not going upward, then you're a lesser Christian.  
  
So what do you do? You suppress and hide sin. In a biblical context, we are to be confessing our sins to one another. We need to be openly saying, "I have problems and struggles." Going to the church to receive help and instruction and strength in this moment when you are unable to confess sins, when you are unable to admit problems, when you are unable to live in a context where there's a saint-sinner reality, then counseling becomes... What do you get? You get a secretive text or an email or a phone call that says, "Pastor, I need, I need help because my marriage is falling apart." And you had no idea. "I have this addiction." I had no idea. Because it's secretive. Because Christians shouldn't struggle in this way.  
  
But if a church has openly said, "Come confess your sin, and receive love and forgiveness. There is no greater hierarchy; there are no good Christians and bad Christians. There are only those who are in Christ." A lot of counseling goes away. Because you have people who can say, "I don't need to suppress sin for years and years and hide it to where it's so compounded and so conflicted." This could have been dealt with easily if you would have come and confessed it, and sought forgiveness, help, love, and care.  
  
My biggest desire is for people to hear that if you properly use the church the way it's designed to be used, most counseling situations go away. Because you can just confess, "You know what? I yelled at my wife last night. I was completely inappropriate." You can receive godly counsel and instruction. We can build you up in love versus the fighting getting worse and it compounds. Before you know it, there's anger and bitterness and vile. Before you know it, five years down the road, you come and sit in front of the pastor and say, "Our marriage is a problem." You took five years to destroy your marriage and you want me to fix it in five minutes? It doesn't work like that.  
  
Justin Perdue: Typically in those contexts where sin can't be confessed, it's a situation where the whole culture is built on an inherent self-righteousness. You want to talk about what will destroy not only mercy and compassion in the church, but in a marriage and in a household? It is self-righteousness, man. It's an epidemic. We all are played with it. So whenever we can create a culture in the church where we're aiming to destroy self-righteousness and self-confidence, and establish people's confidence and hope only in Christ, then it does give us a fighting chance to see those things established in our marriages and in our households as well.  
  
It's a great irony that in churches where the obsession is with sanctification, this actually hinders real sanctification. I've taken a lot of flack for saying this over the course of time. I've practically got yelled at before because it's like, "No, sanctification occurs when we focus on sanctification." Whenever we obsess over sanctification, we actually hinder real growth in Christ because people are not honest about their struggles. That's probably another podcast for another time. I could talk for 30 minutes about that right now and I'm not going to do it. Exercise control - self-control is the fruit of the Spirit.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: As we bring this to a close, I just want to be clear with people, don't hear what we're not saying. All three of us would agree there are time and space for professional counseling. But I think what we are arguing for is that the church does not exist to offshore difficult problems. What we are saying is the church is here to provide the gospel week in and week out. We want to partner with counseling centers to herald Christ, and come back to the church where they can receive Christ on a weekly basis.  
  
Are there places where people need to go see professional help? Absolutely. But what we would like to see is as a stronger partnership with the local churches for those things.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you feel you don't have a church like we are describing, I want that to become a problem for every Theocast listener. Because we will not come up with solutions until we decide that there is a problem. We need strong biblical churches that are willing to use the means of grace and build people up. If you're in an area that doesn't have that, then maybe we need to talk about partnering with another church to provide a church in your area. Or maybe you need to move to an area. It's just like if you can't get a job where you currently live, then go where there is a job. We need more sound biblical churches.  
  
This is why we're planning one in Willmar. This is why Justin planted one in Asheville. We need churches around the world that are going to be biblically based and not just performance-based pietism. Hopefully Theocast continues to create this problem so we can have more people who will pick up the mantle and plant churches with us.  
  
Justin Perdue: Not to sound absurd, but this is why we encourage people to keep supporting Theocast. If we want to see more of these kinds of churches planted or established, then let's support that work not only for this message to spread so that churches that already exist are influenced by it, but for churches to eventually be planted by people who believe and think this way. Let's see this thing through.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Thank you guys for listening. As always, your monthly contributions literally keep the Theocast alive. It allows us to keep moving forward with more resources. We are trying to produce more primers.  
  
I'll let you in a little secret. We are going to be recording a unique class that we've never done before. I can make this announcement and it completely bombs, but that's part of life. But we're recording a unique podcast on Covenant Theology, a 1689 Baptist perspective of Covenant Theology, and we're very excited because this is what drives all of us. If it doesn't come out, there's God's grace and forgiveness for all of you towards us. No, I'm sure it will come out well.  
  
Thank you. We will see you all next week, Lord willing.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/biblical-counseling-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/biblical-counseling-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/)

---

### Biblical Counseling: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (Transcript)

*Published: June 3, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/biblical-counseling-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-transcript*
*Tags: Biblical Counseling Nouthetic Counseling, Christian Counseling, Counseling, Counseling and the Church*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/biblical-counseling-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/)**  
  
Justin Perdue: Today on Theocast, we talk about biblical counseling. We have a conversation about some of the downfalls of the biblical counseling movement, in particular its tendencies toward patriotism and hyper introspection. Then we consider how counseling can be done from a confessional and Christ-centered perspective. We consider how things like counseling centers can be used well for outreach so that people can hear the gospel and they can also be used to funnel people to the local church, which is the real place where counseling and ongoing soul care occurs.  
  
Then in the member's podcast, we talk a little bit about our particular areas and our visions for these kinds of things. Even stuff that's already going on in the cities where we're located. Then we talk a bit about sanctification in the church and how a perspective that emphasizes and obsesses on sanctification actually hinders our ongoing Christian life and our growth in the faith. We hope the conversation is helpful, clarifying, and encouraging for you.  
  
Stay tuned.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The subject for today is one that is very near and dear to my own heart. It is something that has plugged me in the past with dealing with the Christian life. We're going to talk about the movement of what we call biblical counseling.  
  
We had the longest conversation I think we've ever had prior to our podcast this morning. This is not a deconstructionist episode where we only here just to pull apart everything that we find wrong. But there are some areas where we want to help the church think through the role of counseling from the Bible from a confessional, biblical perspective.  
  
There are a lot of movements out there and some of them are helpful and a lot of them are not. This is where we're going to try and explain to you why we think that they can be actually more damaging than maybe helpful. All three of us have had positive experiences when it comes to biblical counseling and some of us have had horrible experiences when it comes Just by way of starting, when we say biblical counseling, it is giving someone directive to their life. Normally you don't go into counseling unless there is a problem, right? You have some kind of problem that you need to be directed in that you cannot find that directive on your own. So that's why people go to counseling. That's pretty obvious, right?  
  
Then we put the word biblical in front of it. So you're not just getting secular idealism where it's human behaviorism. What you're looking for is to receive counsel from a power that's above you, that comes from a trusted source that you know is true. A lot of counseling is theory. So in theory, this'll work to help your marriage get better. In theory, this could help. Because it's not necessarily founded upon rock solid, you can't just stamp it and say this absolutely will work. When it comes to the word of God, biblical counseling is trusting its source with Scripture so you're going to the word of God to say, these are truths that we know that we can absolutely trust because there are founded upon the inerrant word of God. That's the background behind biblical counseling.  
  
The unfortunate side of biblical counseling, which is what we want to talk about in the beginning, and then we're going to move to how we think you should perceive and use counseling or if you want to call it biblical counseling, is we have people who walk into biblical counseling centers typically with a sin issue or something that's been done to them. So they're not necessarily in sin, but they are battling the sin of someone else, or they're battling depression that may not even be a sin issue.  
  
What they're handed is not necessarily biblical truth. What they're handed is behaviorism and therapy. The solutions that are provided to them - if you do this and you do this, then your behavior will change - that's behaviorism. So they're trying to improve your moral behavior and they're going to use Scripture either as proof that you need to improve your moral behavior or as motivation.  
  
When I was in seminary, the first verse that you took people to was Proverbs where it says, "the way of the sinner is hard." The first thing we tend to say in motivating people is that the longer they stay in sin, the harder it will be. We immediately go negative because you don't want them to stay in sin.  
  
So you begin to have them question, "Do you truly love God? Do you want to get this?" And unfortunately you start messing with their assurance. In the model that I was taught, and then it was basically, "Do these things, read your Bible more, pray more, read these books, discipline yourself, and that's going to improve your behavior."  
  
So that's where we're going to start. I know that we have quite a few things to add here. Justin, what are you some of your thoughts on this?  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to pick up on some of the things that you've said and frame it in my own way to depict the kind of understanding of biblical counseling that we would not advocate. Biblical counseling is a very broad term, and not everybody needs the same thing when they use the phrase. It's important for us to understand at least a little bit in terms of where some of this comes from. In the 1970s and 1980s, the church looked at the secular - for lack of a better way to describe it - the secular therapeutic model. The church looked at that and thought we could actually do that better than the world does it because we have Scripture and we have the Holy Spirit. What ended up happening, interestingly enough, is there began to be a perspective and a methodology that resulted that were effectively a cognitive behaviorism in the church with a Christian label slapped on it. When we say cognitive behavior, we mean you can change somebody's thinking and recalibrate somebody's thinking. In this case, according to Scripture, then you can change their behavior. That becomes the entire goal and project of the approach and it becomes the modus operandi that drives everything - that we need to transform behavior by changing and recalibrating thinking.  
  
If we're not careful, we end up turning the Bible into something that it really is not. We turn the Bible into essentially a handbook for mental and emotional health. That's not at all. The Scripture is an account of redemptive history. It's God's plan of redemption accomplished through Christ that unfolds through time and space in history. It's not some sort of handbook for your life. We turn the Bible into a kind of medicine cabinet where we go to it, depending on the problem, to find the solution, the cure, or the elixir that's going to make this better. "You're depressed - here are your verses for that. You're struggling with lust -here are your verses for that. Maybe it's anger - here are your verses for that. If you take these verses and you call me next Tuesday, I'm sure you're going to be doing much better." That's an unhelpful perspective that is often sadly common in biblical counseling today.  
  
So the kind of things that we want to talk about and really discourage is this approach to counseling that is focused almost exclusively on transforming behavior. Whereas what we want to point people to is something very different. We want to use Scripture the way that we think it should be used. We want to talk about counseling really as a subset of the Christian life in the church and point people to a more corporate reality, and what we think is more in line with not only the Bible's revelation, but also what we would understand to be a confessional and reformed perspective on Christian life and theology.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: One of the things that I've noticed over the years, primarily in myself as well as in those around me, is that we as people are very much pain averse. We don't want to experience pain, whether it be on a physical, emotional, or spiritual level. A lot of what that can lead to are quick fixes; a behavior modification approach offers that - it gives people that quick fix that as long as I can rid myself of this behavior, I'm going to feel better tomorrow.  
  
It's almost like eating junk food - it feels really good in that moment, and it's even satisfying, but the issue is once that hunger comes back or once that feeling comes down, you can almost feel worse than you did before. Because when you're aiming at primarily a behavior modification approach and that behavior returns, your lows become all the more lower because something that you were trying to rid yourself of has returned with a vengeance. It can turn the sinner more in on themselves and make them feel worse than they did  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think that's exactly what the issue with the biblical counseling is: it's introspective mostly. To be clear, and it's just a backup to what Justin is saying, we're not taking a nuke to biblical counseling, but I'm definitely going to take a nuke to anything that is not going to help the believer truly find rest, just as I would to any church or preaching model. My biggest beef is that the believer cannot find rest in Christ in the midst of struggling with sin and their own depravity when they're turned in on themselves.  
  
Most biblical counseling is a quick fix in that these are the things you can do to overcome these sins. And as you do that, you're pointed into yourself, which is a direct opposition to Colossians 2\. The danger of most biblical counseling is introspective or here 's-how-you-fix-you.  
  
Justin Perdue: Exactly. An introspective by definition is positivistic - that's what we talk about all the time on Theocast. If we wanted to boil this down, what we are aiming at today, or what we have in our crosshairs today is what we might call biblical counseling that we find to be completely unhelpful versus what we're going to offer as a more confessional perspective on counseling. A pietistic perspective on counseling is everything that you've said, Jon, it's introspective. It's pointing the Christian back in on him or herself. It's pointing the Christian to his or her performance, obedience, or disciplines, and will honestly point the Christian to those things as the method to overcome said struggle. Now, of course there is acknowledgment of God and the Holy Spirit and grace and all these things, but really where the rubber meets the road is, "Are you going to be diligent enough and vigilant enough? And are you going to be disciplined enough in your application of these things in order to see yourself delivered?" That's problematic from our perspective on a number of levels. We do believe in the transformation of life, but we understand that to be something that the Holy Spirit of God does over the course of a long time. As ordinary means, ministry is applied - something that we'll get to in just a minute.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One of the things we need to think about is helping the church recalibrate themselves when it comes to problems. Someone contacted our church through Facebook asking for counseling. That's how they view the church: the church is there, fix my problems and my issues.  
  
Even those who are in the church who find themselves really trapped in sin, their solution is that they need counseling. They think they need to meet with somebody for 6-10 weeks in order to walk them through what they're going through. The issue with this is that it is not how the church handled sin and struggles with sin historically, and even biblically. When we look at Paul, he didn't have a therapeutic model set in place. That's just not how he described the church growing with sin. What that sounds like is you have a problem separated outside of the church when really you have a problem inside the church.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I do want to give a positive take on this because as somebody who has received counseling at a professional level, I had a positive experience with counseling.  
  
Let me explain what was positive about that experience. One, I wasn't divorced from the local church, and so I was active in the church. I was actively receiving help from trusted sources within that church. I was open with the things that I was struggling with because my issues, in my own opinion and in others' opinions, were just very complex.  
  
The counseling that I received was in addition to the care I was already receiving at my local church. So my counseling experience, I was telling you guys before we started recording, was actually a vital step in my journey towards greater Reformation Theology. Here is why. My counselor was very fixed not on applying Scripture verses out of context - he was more so fixed on helping me focus on the objective and declarative realities of the gospel in my life and getting me out of this introspective, morbid navel gazing posture that I had built over time, very much like a puritanical approach to the Christian life. He was very good and skilled at pulling me out of myself and helping me to fix my eyes upon Christ, regardless of the sin that was weighing me down in my life so much. My counselor was very much helpful at pointing me to the outside-of-myself realities. So we want to be clear, and I know we've said this already, that we are not saying that there is no time and there is no space for counseling at any level. What we're trying to say is that helpful counseling is pointing the sinner, the struggler, and the weary saint outside of themselves and onto Jesus.  
  
Justin Perdue: Agreed. Jimmy, I think it's helpful for a counselor to look at somebody and tell him or her, "Okay, you've come to me to meet with me because you have this struggle or this problem in your life."  
  
Let me tell you that you may very well struggle with this for the rest of your days. So if your approaching this is, "Let me go get counseling and I'll be better. Let me go get counseling and I'll be fixed," I don't think that this is for you. But in coming to counseling, the goal would be that the counselor is a tool that the Lord uses to point the Christian to Christ, and to point the Christian outside of him or herself to the objective realities of the gospel and what Jesus has done for them.  
  
Jimmy's experience was a good one because he had a counselor who pointed him outside of himself, and because his counselor was caring for him in conjunction with the care that he was receiving in his local church. Those are two critical pieces that I know all three of us would advocate. We want the objective realities and the confessional realities of the faith held out to people in counseling, and it must be done in the context of the local church and in conjunction with the local church, even if we're seeking counseling outside of the elders of our church.  
  
What we want to see is that when anybody is going to get biblical counseling outside of the church, that counseling entity is funneling people back into the local church for their ongoing care, and for the ongoing practice of just living the Christian life. The counseling center is not the entity that's going to do the heavy lifting and the sustaining work for this person in their following of Jesus. The local church is going to do that. And that's a critical piece here.  
  
A quick shout out to an entity here in our city that one of our members has started - the Restoration Counseling Center of Asheville - which is seeking to do this very same work in not only pointing people to Jesus, but also pointing people to the local church in terms of what they need in an ongoing basis to live the Christian life.  
  
The counseling piece in and of itself is at best a supplemental aspect. It is not going to be the thing that's going to do it. Those two pieces are what's missing, sadly, for so many people. You're pointing people in on themselves - that's unhelpful. And you're acting like the counselor. The counseling center is going to be the instrument that the Lord is going to use, and I think it's going to be the local church, if we look at the New Testament.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I couldn't agree more. There are great counseling ministries out there. I had a good conversation with somebody last night that was trying to start a podcast. We were talking through counseling and biblical counseling and I'm excited for their podcasts and their ministry. We need more people who are willing to get down in the mire with people and love on them, funnel them out of the community who are not in church, and use counseling to funnel into an ordinary means context. Most Christians don't know what ordinary means context looks like to where you strive, struggle, and love underneath the means that God has provided - that is His word, fellowship, the sacraments, and baptism. Once you learn to live in that context, it changes how you see your struggles and what you need counseling for.  
  
Now there are times when the Bible is very clear that if you get engulfed in sin that you're not coming out of it, you need to sit down with someone who is wise, and confess these problems so that they can speak into your life and say, "Hey, this is why you continue to struggle in these areas. Let me give you some counsel here."  
  
There are some extreme examples that I've personally been involved in where I have admitted a person into a hospital. They were so psychologically messed up that they could not even have a logical conversation with me and the fellow elder I was with. I have a smaller church now, so this is at a former church. We had to admit them and they were there for two weeks. We couldn't even have a logical conversation. They were meeting with psychologists to try and figure out what was going on. He had fallen into such a deep depression that he couldn't even have a logical conversation.  
  
So I need to be very clear here that I am not opposing psychology on certain levels. There is a lot of horrible stuff that is out there. I've also had sexual cases we're some of the stuff that they are dealing with, I can't even give biblical church-driven counsel to because we can't even have a normal conversation until we've been able to regain some ground on a level that I am not trained in. We're not talking about a spiritual level right now - we're talking at a physical level.  
  
I grew up in a biblical counseling world where any type of psychology or any type of medication was unbiblical, and you need to get off of it and stay away from it because it hinders the work of the Holy Spirit. I'm just not there. I would heartily push back against that, which we did in our depression episode.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There is also the other side of this coin where people can hear us and think that what we're saying is you don't need to ever seek professional help; you only need the local church. That is not what we are saying. There is a healthy marriage that needs to occur.  
  
Let's go to the other extreme - what about those who would say the Bible is sufficient? I believe it's 2 Peter 1 - Peter's introduction. "God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness." And then you also have Paul's letters to Timothy where he talks about the sufficiency of Scripture. And you can go on the other extreme where people can say you don't need any sort of professional care because the Bible is sufficient for all of the complex realities and emotions and psychological things that you are facing.  
  
Justin Perdue: The three of us agree that the Bible is sufficient for all matters of faith and practice. We believe that but we need to be clear about what we understand the sufficiency of Scripture to mean and be so. The way that we use Scripture in this conversation is critical. If we misuse the Bible and turn it into something that it isn't, we really do damage to people. I alluded to this a little bit earlier - whenever we view the Bible in its sufficiency as some sort of medicine cabinet or as some sort of handbook for mental and emotional health, that's bad. What we need to do with Scripture is to understand what it's about.  
  
We talk all the time about the redemptive-historical framework of the Bible, that it's about redemption accomplished through Christ. It's about God's utter faithfulness to us in spite of our faithlessness to Him. That's what we use Scripture for. Whenever we take people to Scripture, we're pointing them over and over again to the utter faithfulness of God in the face of their suffering. We're pointing them over and over again to the perfect, sufficient, adequate work of Jesus Christ that stands outside of them, that's unshakable and unmovable in spite of their sin and struggle and failure. That's the main application of the Bible when it comes to any kind of counseling, right?  
  
So of course the Scripture is sufficient. But then how does change in the Christian life happen? It happens over the course of a long time and it happens at different rates at different times for different people. So we have to be very clear about all of that stuff. It's going to happen in the context of the local church through the ordinary means over the course of years and decades. It's when people take their eyes off of their own navel, put their gaze on Christ, and concern themselves with loving their brothers and sisters that real growth and transformation happen. That's what we're really trying to do in counseling - liberate people with the truth of the gospel with this kind of change and perspective that will then set them free to trust Christ even in the midst of their struggle and battle with sin.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We harp this phrase all the time. We are always talking about what it means to live status forward. When people are coming to receive care, when people are coming to find balm for their soul, we're reminding them of what God says in His gospel that they are declared righteous by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone. These realities exist _extra nos_ or outside of themselves. That's where we're pointing people.  
  
I want to give a small illustration. We are in this place right now with our children where we are finally getting out of diapers. If you were to talk to me three or four years ago where all three of them were experiencing going to the bathroom in various ways and fashions, we were so inundated with those things that it was hard to look beyond that. Justin, when you talk about kind of keeping your head down, keeping your eyes upon Christ, and just allowing God's goodness and kindness and sovereignty to inundate our lives over the course of years and decades, it's similar when it comes to the little years with your children - they will come to an end. You will not be dominated by diapers and nap schedule for the rest of your life. But in that moment, those words of comfort may not feel good because it's all you can see, but it will come to an end.  
  
Similarly, when we are talking about walking with people in their sin as, as they struggle with their own frame, flesh, and the different things that have happened to them, we have to have a certain level of patience. These people may be walking through these things over years and decades and we say, "You need to drop the sin now. And if you don't drop this sin now, it's saying something about the greater state of your heart." Let's just be a little bit more patient with people as they struggle. I just wanted to throw that in there.  
  
Justin Perdue: To be able to believe in the sufficiency of Scripture does not mean that we jettison and abandoned common grace means that God has given us. We uphold both that Scripture is sufficient for what it was intended to be sufficient for, and at the same time, God has made us in His image with the ability to develop common grace means that are helpful to people. That would include wisdom that exists in the world that God has made. It would include even medication in some cases. Jon, you referenced this already. There are certain instances where people have real medical problems that need to be addressed medically. If we're going to really be of much help to people, just like we don't try to reason or counsel the alcoholic when he's drunk or the addict when he's high, we wouldn't want to try to do but so much work with somebody that has in the throes of a real medical issue. Sometimes the best thing we can do is point people to a medical professional and then resume the work of ongoing care. That's just a commonsense observation, but it matters.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'll speak to that on a different level, maybe a negative level in that I've had people come to my church and assuming that as their pastor, I'm going to be their new counselor. They have these ongoing meetings with me, and what I'm doing is pushing them back into the context of the church because they don't have any life-threatening issues. It's like saying, "Look, you're struggling like the rest of us. And the solution is to learn how to function as a body member." But usually that's not what they want. They want a personal relationship with me that is an ongoing therapeutic ride - I meet with them, listen to them, and then give them something to work on. And I will say, "Look, I gave you something to work on. You don't want to do it. We're not going to go on and on."  
  
On a word count basis, how much does the Bible say about marriage and parenting? You can count maybe five verses, and now you can apply all verses that speak to your neighbor because your wife is your first neighbor. Your kids are your neighbors. So all of those verses apply. But when it comes down to marital advice or even sexual advice, that's just not there. There's not a lot. And where there can be men who have a lot of commonsense instruction and... What I'm finding is that guys that are in their twenties and thirties getting married today lack common sense when it comes to how to care for your wife. Forget biblical counseling. I'm just talking about common sense in how you take care of someone you're married to.  
  
Justin Perdue: If you need me to open Proverbs to convince you that what you're doing right now is foolish, then we've got another conversation.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: What about all those sermon series on marriage and parenting?  
  
Jon Moffitt: I have books that I recommend on marriage and parenting. Then people will say, "Why can't you just show me from the Bible?" The Bible does not contain, for instance, knowledge and wisdom on how to buy a house. I'm not going to go to Scripture other than to make sure you're not one, buying a house you can't afford, and two, you're not doing this out of envy. But after that, you need to talk about budgeting. You need to talk about the market. You need to talk about loans. That's not going to be in the Bible. That's counseling. You're going to need to go get from like a real estate agent or somebody that does exactly does this for a living.  
  
Justin Perdue: Marriage is a great example where parenting too, if you were to only go to the passages in Scripture that exclusively mentioned marriage or parenting, you would miss 99.9% of what the Scripture actually says to you that's going to be relevant for your marriage or for your parenting. Because the vast majority are high-level truths of the gospel: the work of Christ, the reality of who you are in Adam and what it looks like to love neighbor.  
  
I preached a four-part series sermon a couple of years ago at CBC, and I was very clear from the outset that I will not be looking at any of the typical marriage texts. First of all, they're often abused and ripped out of context. What the Bible says to this reality has more to do with who you are, your struggles as a sinner, and the sufficiency of Christ and his work in the gospel than it has to do with anything else.  
  
Let's just talk about common sense about how we struggle with each other because we're sinners. That's really how we counsel. It doesn't matter what the subject matter is. That's how we use Scripture. We use Scripture as it was intended to be used.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're going to move over to our members' podcast and before we do, I want to tee it up here. We've done a lot of deconstruction, and done a little bit of reconstruction here. What I would love for us to do is see how biblical counseling or counseling in general can be a wonderful outreach into your community. It's something that I personally am starting to do now. I have a lot of people who grew up in the South, who grew up around Christianity, and they blow up their life for marriage or parenting. Then they say, "Well, now I need counseling." I would love to give some wise counsel to those people and say that what you really need is soul care. Let me show you what that looks like. We'll speak to that a little bit in the members' podcast.  
  
Then we're going to also just talk about how we need to learn to be counselors as body members. Let's just forget the word counseling because it has this weird psychological connection to a one-on-one basis, but every person in the body is responsible for the soul care of each other.  
  
Let's put biblical counseling in the proper perspective. Where actual growth and maintenance should happen is back in on the church. We'll speak to that on a more practical level in the members' podcasts. So gentlemen, unless you have any parting shots, we're going to go ahead and move over there.  
  
We want to thank you for listening. If you're new to Theocast, you can go to our website Theocast.org. We actually have a new podcast called Ask Theocast. If you are a member or want to join our membership, you now have access to all of our podcasts on your favorite podcast app. We have a new program that we're working with where you can download our weekly premium podcast, which is our members' podcasts, and all 300-plus back episodes right on your phones. For those of you that are tired of logging into the website to try and find an episode, you don't have to do that anymore. You can have it right there on your phone.  
  
Thank you for all of those monthly supporters. This is what makes us available.  
  
We should also have a new book available, if not by now, on assurance. We are excited for that. It's a primer; we're starting a primer series, so that's the next book in our primer series on assurance.  
  
If you want to learn more about all of that, you can go to Theocast.org. Gentlemen. We'll see you in a few minutes.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-biblical-counseling-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-biblical-counseling-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/)

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### MEMBERS: Triumphalism (Transcript)

*Published: May 27, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-triumphalism-transcript*
*Tags: overcoming sin, Sanctification, Triumphalism, victorious Christian life*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-triumphalism/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Before we get going, I just wanted to say that the membership continues to grow and as it grows, we have more financial ability to do more things. Thank you for your support. We're going to have additional ways for you guys to help support us and provide more content. We can let it leak out right now that very soon we are going to be doing a new class. It's something we've never done before where the three of us are going to do a four-part series on Covenant Theology. We're pretty excited about that. That'll come out here probably sometime this fall.  
  
But again, with more finances that come in, we have more ability to produce more stuff. So, we're all pretty geeking out and nerding out about that. We all love Covenant Theology so we get to provide that for our members. I'm pretty excited about that.  
  
Another one of Paul's wonderful commands, "Walk by the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh," could be used as an argument for the victorious Christian life. The more you walk by the Spirit, the more you'll be mortifying the flesh. What does Paul mean when he says that?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Again, I always want to keep in view that there are individual aspects to verses like that, but we also want to keep in view the corporate realities as well. Whenever we see phrases like this we can tend to over-spiritualize some of these things in that we think it's some magical process. What I would like to point out is there are a lot more common-sense things in the New Testament than we like to give credit for. You see this everywhere in 1 Corinthians where Paul's says something like, "Have you all lost your minds? What is wrong with you?"  
  
There are some commands like, "Do not take your father's wife," and it's like he's saying, "I can't believe I have to write this to you, but here I am." I get this a lot because I'm a high school teacher by day. There are times I love my students but there are times when I go, "Guys, I can't believe that I have to tell you to not lick my whiteboard right now, but here we are." So when we think about walking by the Spirit so that you will not gratify the desires of the flesh, there are certain things... even yesterday I was reading about the Jerusalem Council in the Book of Acts where they're talking about circumcision, high-level, who can be in and out of the church. One of the practical things that the Jerusalem Council tells the Gentile churches is that, "It's a really good idea to abstain from sexual immorality. Just so you know. We just ask that you do these things and it's going to go well for you."  
  
Justin Perdue: Why are they saying this? Because the Gentile context that these people were coming from is one where sexual immorality was commonplace. It was not seen as a big deal. It was just what people did. So we have to remember that when the apostles are writing into Gentile context, they're writing to people that don't have the framework of God's Law. They have the natural law, they understand some sense of right and wrong and that they're made in God's image and all that, and they're without excuse, Romans 1, but they do not have the special revelation of God to know that certain thing that they did all the time before were actually bad. So the apostles are just trying to make that plain.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Paul says the works of the Spirit are evident: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. He says these things are objectively good. Where these exist in the corporate gathering of the church, it is a good and beautiful thing that should be celebrated, right? So when we walk in the Spirit not to gratify the desires of the flesh, we celebrate the things of the Spirit; we don't celebrate the things of the flesh.  
  
So within the church where there is jealousy and enmity and strife, we don't look at that and say, "Hey, this is okay. This is normal so we should continue down this road." Paul's reply would be something like, "No. We don't walk in that way because of what God has accomplished for us on our behalf in Christ. We walk in the Spirit. We walk in love and joy and peace and patience and guidance." They are implications of the gospel but they are not the gospel themselves.  
  
Jon Moffitt: a fun question I've asked.  
  
I asked it to the men's Bible study because it's used and it's an amazing promise.  
  
Everybody here on the podcast, we hate the flesh. Paul says, "The desire of the flesh is against the Spirit, and the desire of the Spirit is against the flesh. For these are opposed to each other to keep you from doing the things that you want to do." I want to be holy m. If I could just be perfect, life would be amazing. But it's not that way. So then Paul says, "The way in which that you pursue this is that you walk by the Spirit."  
  
There are all kinds of instructions that are given. Some will say that's your Bible reading, some will say that's your prayer life - or the spiritual disciplines. I don't think so. If you look over at the end of Colossians 2, he gives the same instructions and he says, "Listen, you're trying to control your flesh through asceticism and all kinds of outward actions, but you can't control the indulgence of the flesh this way."  
  
Paul, instead of telling them to walk by the Spirit, he gives an example. And he says, "Looking unto Jesus, who is sitting at the right hand of the Father." looking to your representative, looking to your justification, your sanctification, and glorification. Another way he's saying this is to walk by the Spirit is to live every single moment with the reality of what the Spirit has been to you.  
  
You are in union with Christ because of the Spirit's indwelling nature in you. When you live within that reality, that's what helps motivate you to fight back against the flesh.  
  
Justin Perdue: Galatians 5:16 is the verse that we're referencing: "But I say walk by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."  
  
You just read verse 17, Jon, which is great clarification. But then in verse 18 Paul says, "If you're led by the Spirit, you're not under the Law." That sounds just like Romans 6 where we're told that we're not under the Law, but we're under grace. So the union with Jesus is obviously paramount in Paul's mind. He's going to continue to go on down below this and say those things in verse 24, "And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.' What he means there is not what we often hear that if you're really a Christian, you'll have crucified the flesh. That's not what he's saying. What he's saying is this has happened in Christ Jesus. Your flesh has been put to death, and then you have been united to Christ.  
  
Then he says in verse 25, "If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit." What's he going to say now? He's going to talk about not becoming conceited, not provoking one another, being gentle in restoring each other. "Bear one another's burdens" comes right after that. Don't think too highly of yourself lest anybody think that there's something when he is nothing; he deceives himself. That's where he goes in describing what it even looks like to walk in the Spirit in the context of Galatians 5 and 6.  
  
That's never said in the broader context of the evangelical world where when we hear "walk by the Spirit", we don't ever hear "union with Christ." We don't ever hear, "Don't become conceited." We don't ever hear, "Gently restore people. Bear one another's burdens." That's not what's ever communicated. It's always a very personal, individualized, read your Bible and battle sin, be disciplined, etc. That's not what Paul says at all. Not that those things are bad, but that's not what Paul describes walking by the Spirit as. It's union with Jesus. It's looking to Christ and honestly, it's humility and loving your brothers and sisters.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Sometimes we decide what we want to talk on and one of the things that we always try and focus on is clarifying and really needling down. There are so many new listeners. There are so many people that are coming into this conversation that we have to circle back and pick up some things that we haven't talked about in a while.  
  
So many people feel like failures. They feel as if everything they're doing is not enough. They feel that they're disappointing their spouses, they're disappointing their children, they're disappointing their parents, they're disappointed in their whole life because they can't live up to the expectation.  
  
Here's what the gospel is. The gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ has met every expectation. That is the good news of the gospel because God expects you to live an absolute glorious, perfect life of loving him without failure. That's what He expects, and He will not lower His expectation for anyone ever in all of humanity, and He has proven that through the existence of hell.  
  
When God looks at you, he doesn't wink His eye and say, "Well, you know, he's giving it his best shot." That's not good news. That's bad news. God looks at you, and when He looks at you, He sees you clothed in - and this is why we walk by the Spirit - clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. That's why God accepts you. That's why you have confidence. That's why you have assurance.  
  
1 John 3 he says, "What we will be, we are not yet." He's looking to the glorification of our bodies. He's saying we aren't there yet, but in anticipation of who we will be, we purify ourselves as he is pure - meaning that we don't lose motivation because we are imputed with Christ's righteousness because we wear his clothing. It becomes our motivation because that's the glory of Christ. Yeah. The glory of Christ is so magnificent. We want to be just like him - like a little child who looks up at their parent and is really impressed by them. "I want to be just like that." We look up to Christ and say, "I want to be just like that. I want to be that loving. I want to be that kind. I want to be that gracious, that dedicated to the Father, that motivated. But I'm not that." I can fall forward failing towards Christ because I'm safe and secure in what I am because I am declared righteousness. I have not been made righteous; I've been declared righteous. Now I have the motivation to move forward.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something that I'd like to point out to the listener is that if this kind of mindset is new to you - if you are transitioning into a more confessional context, a more confessional mindset - where the objective realities of the gospel are in the forefront and not in the background, realize that there is a significant amount of work mentally that needs to occur in your own brain. It's going to take time to transition from an "I receive rest and assurance in my works and what I do for Christ" to "I receive rest and assurance in resting in what Christ has done for me." That doesn't come overnight.  
  
When I began my transition into this mindset, and there are days when I have to catch myself from having the victorious Christian life mindset. Then I have to catch myself and say, "Well, that can be taken from me in a moment." All it takes is a tragedy or some.  
  
I saw a quote the other day and it said that we are just one bad decision away from becoming front-page news. When you realize how frail and fickle your life is, in light of that statement, you begin to think, "I certainly can't find rest, hope, and assurance in what I do for Christ because that can be taken from me in a moment."  
  
What we're putting forth is: the gospel must always exist in the foreground. The transformation of life - status forward - flows out of that gospel reality. The objective realities of the gospel in the foreground.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And whatever level of transformation that is, we don't know. That's up to God.  
  
When Paul gets angry at the maturity of the believer, he's not talking about moral maturity. He's talking about their spiritual level of faith and dependence upon God. That's what he's angry at. "I should be giving you the meat of the gospel, the deeper truths, but you're all so focused in on self that I can't even do that." He's not talking about moral improvement there.  
  
Justin Perdue: Everybody is sanctified and grown at different rates, and even individuals are sanctified and grown at different rates in different seasons of their lives. Why that is not ours to know, that is the work of God - that's in His mind, it's in His purposes, and He has not told us all of those things. We know that He is faithful to sanctify and that is not a one-size-fits-all reality in terms of our experience. It is a one-size-fits-all reality in terms of the definite nature of the fact that we will be conformed to Christ's image ultimately. But what that's going to look like day-to-day is going to vary.  
  
I think a reasonable perspective on some of this, in thinking about the Christian life, is to be humble always that any transformation that occurs in my life is God's work, not my own doing decisively. I participate like I participate in life by being alive.  
  
I know we say that a lot, but I'm doing something because God is doing something. It's His work in me, so I'm humble but grateful to God for any transformation I see. I'm also grateful to God in those good seasons - when I have those moments where the battle against sin right now is not as intense as it has been in certain seasons of my life, and I'm thankful to God for that. That's a good perspective. At the same time, be realistic enough to know that the hard seasons are coming. The water will get high again, and things will get hard again. The question is, "Where is your hope and stay in that moment when everything around you is falling apart, and your mind and your heart are all over the place?"  
  
Again, we hold to what we call Confessional Theology because we are looking outside of ourselves to truths that have been revealed by God in His word, to be trusted and rested in. That's the hope that we have in the bad seasons. It's a very grounded, very realistic, humble perspective on the Christian life that I think is just more stable. It allows us to call things what they are. We don't fall into these traps, like we were alluding to earlier, where we have to deny our own sinfulness, we've got to put on a decent face and not tell people that we're struggling because that would call into question the legitimacy of our faith. We can be honest with each other in the church, and it's amazing how the Lord uses that. There are all kinds of good from this.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something I like to say to newly married couples, or particularly people without children is, "Just enjoy your holiness while you still have it. Wait until you get kids."  
  
Jon Moffitt: One day we are going to do a podcast just for newlyweds. We haven't been married long enough, but we could do one on new parenting and newlyweds, because I'm telling you, from all the conversations we've had, we've made the worst mistakes you can make.  
  
Justin Perdue: And we've all had the realizations like Paul. I used to have some righteousness according to the Law. I used to be so disciplined. I was up early in the morning with my Bible and my coffee, probably with. Classical music or hymns playing in the background. It was beautiful. It was beautiful. And now...  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Here I am.  
  
Jon Moffitt: My wife will text me, "I just need 10 minutes alone. Could you please come get our son?"  
  
Sometimes my wife will come home from grocery shopping and I observe that she has been in the van for 20 minutes. I'll text her, "Is everything okay?" She replies, "Yeah, it's quiet in here."  
  
Anyway, for those who can relate, thank you for listening. We honestly do pray that this has been encouraging to you. Our greatest desire is to help worry Christians find rest in Christ and to assure themselves in Christ. We have enjoyed the conversation. We are thankful for Theocast that we get to have these conversations and we look forward to bringing you a new topic next week. Stay tuned.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/triumphalism-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/triumphalism/)

---

### Triumphalism (Transcript)

*Published: May 27, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/triumphalism-transcript*
*Tags: overcoming sin, Sanctification, Triumphalism, victorious Christian life*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/triumphalism/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Today on Theocast, we are talking about triumphalism or what is also known as the victorious Christian life. We're always encouraged by modern evangelicalism that there should be an upward trajectory to our Christian life and that we should be overcoming sin and gaining new levels of righteousness as we grow year after year. Yet that is not the experience of many Christians. They feel defeated, they lack assurance, and they do not have joy.  
  
We are here to bring some relief and show you from Scripture what the Christian life should be, and how triumphalism and the victorious Christian life is a distraction that actually robs us of the true hope and assurance we should have.  
  
We hope you enjoy.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: So today, gentlemen, we are talking about the idea of triumphalism or you could also call it the victorious Christian life. In a 10,000 or perhaps even 30,000-foot view of things, what we mean by that is as we think about the Christian life, the daily grind, the ins and outs, that if we were to take a step back and look at ourselves, we would always see this onward and upward trajectory that. Even though we might stay in a struggle a little bit each day, we can look to the confidence we have in ourselves that we are struggling less than we did perhaps even a year ago or two years ago or five years ago - and it's really this heavy emphasis on victory in the Christian life. There's a heavy emphasis on a trajectory of goodness or holiness.  
  
Before we begin to talk about this idea, we want to be clear from the get go that we do believe here at Theocast that we are sanctified in this life. That as we continually look to Christ and faith, we believe that God uses means to make us more like Jesus.  
  
This is going to be a nuanced conversation as we look at some of these themes. What I want to do is throw it out to you guys and see if you want to help flesh out this definition of what we mean by triumphalism or the victorious Christian life.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is something that has been a part of Theocast from day one; it's something that I can remember when I became confessional, started to understand covenant theology, and understood saint-sinner realities - that sin is a state versus an action. All of these began to inform my understanding of communicating the gospel and the Christian life to people.  
  
What I had received my entire life was this onward and upward trajectory that I should be triumphing. I am pressing myself towards this progression. Every sermon in every book, the way I approach my Bible reading, the way I approach prayer or mortification of sin, it was always making sure that I was adding to the spiritual muscle that I had, the spiritual agility that I had. To make sure that I could become a better spiritual athlete so that I could have victory - victory over sin, victory over bad habits. Sermons and books were seven ways for this, and five ways for this, and three ways for that.  
  
What ends up happening is you take these small victories that you do find, but you neglect the reality of your nature where you ignore the inward battle and struggle. In a triumphalism and victorious Christian life culture, to admit you're not progressing or to admit that you aren't overcoming is failure. So you don't confess sin. You don't confess that you struggle with some kind of addiction or that you are depressed.  
  
We just did a podcast on depression. People who are depressed or who suffer from anxiety are crushed underneath the weight of triumphalism.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It's a bitter pill.  
  
Justin Perdue: There are a number of observations that could be made out of the gate here. To pick up on what you're talking about, Jon, I think a couple of things that characterize this triumphalist perspective - this onward and upward, clean, linear progression stuff - is that it necessarily means that we are always trying to quantify everything that's going on in our spiritual lives. We're always measuring certain things where generally speaking, we're measuring two or three things.  
  
One, we're measuring how well we're doing at overcoming sin. So how are we doing it? Overcoming vice - am I doing better than I was? What's the trajectory there? We think about how we're doing with respect to our disciplines. And am I more disciplined? Am I doing better? Am I more consistent in these various things?  
  
The other thing is we will often try to quantify our affection in particular towards God and his word and the like. We're always measuring ourselves there. The question that we're asking is, "Am I better?" Are you better than you were a month or a year ago or three years ago? The implication is if you're not doing better than you were, then something is terribly wrong, and you need to be really concerned about your spiritual state.  
  
We're going to go here in a number of different ways. I'm sure it's just very unrealistic and it's not the way that the Christian life unfolds for us as we live as fallen people in a fallen world. Take depression or anxiety or addiction or any of these things that we are struggling with on the regular. We'll go through seasons in our lives. We might have seasons where the struggle is not as intense and the Lord has given a lot of grace and we aren't even that aware of the temptation or we're not even that aware of the darkness or whatever it may be, and we're doing pretty well.  
  
But then they are going to be other seasons where it absolutely jumps on us like that 400-pound gorilla. It comes out of nowhere. Sometimes you may be doing well today with respect to the state of your heart and mind and you're thinking, "I'm doing pretty well with respect to depression. I haven't been in the throes of it in a while." That does not mean, brother or sister, that in five, 10, or 30 years as you continue to trust Christ, that it will not rear its head again and be crippling.  
  
So there is a lot of damage and harm that comes from this. It sets unrealistic expectations for the Christian and it robs us of peace, comfort, and assurance because we're always looking to ourselves and assessing our progress.  
  
And anybody who is sane and self-aware is going to realize that there is a ton of failure mixed in with the successes.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Even as we think about the everyday goodness of the Christian life. To the listener right now who perhaps feels a little bit rubbed against as we're speaking this way, maybe you are going through a particular time in your life where you feel like your prayer life, Scripture intake, and affections for God are rich.  
  
And praise God for that.  
  
Exactly, Justin. What we want to do is encourage that and say that is great. Praise the Lord that you feel these ways and you're thinking these ways.  
  
I saw a meme the other day and it was sometimes David goes, "I am okay," and then the next day, David is going, "No, I'm not. I'm just kidding." The book of Psalms is encouraging because as we look at the life of David as it's expressed in the Psalms, there are days where he is asking, "How long, o Lord, will you forget me forever? Why have you turned your face from me? My tears have been my food. I've soaked my couch in my tears. So on and so forth." But then there are days that he says, "I am ready to go to the nations and declare your glories among them. Let's go."  
  
What we're trying to say is that there is such a spectrum in the normal, everyday Christian life that, Lord willing, by God's grace and his kindness and mercy toward you, the light of His countenance will be toward you and you will even have some sort of feeling of that. But there will also be days when you will feel the real struggle of your own frame. In all of this, what we are seeking to point to is that we as Christians are far more fragile than we think. We are far more fickle than we think, and we are far weaker than we think. Triumphalism, or the victorious Christian life, often doesn't give room for that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Your illustration with David is a great example. Towards the end of his life, you wouldn't say he lived the victorious Christian life. It was horrible just watching his own children and what they did to each other, and just even his own heart and his own soul. One of the things that happen when you live in this triumphalism culture is that your level of joy and assurance is going to rise and fall based upon you. It's a highly individualized system. It's focused in on you. When you approach God and your relationship with him, you are always introspective. If you're new to Theocast, this is going to be new to you. If you've been around Theocast for a while, this is a little bit of a repeat, and we do this often to remind ourselves not to be so introspective.  
  
I'm going to be totally frank with every single listener. I know both of you are going to agree that if you were to look at Jon Moffitt 20 years ago, I would be a much different man than I am today. There are many reasons why but not all of it is because I've been in the word. A lot of it is because I've been beaten down - I've gone through sorrow, I've gone through loss, I've gone through pain. God has used the suffering. But the thing is I don't know if I'm a better man. I know that I've made better decisions but I can't say that my life is one of triumph. I have a lot of failures from back then. I've had a lot of sin struggles from back then until today. The thing that has motivated me to continue to find joy, the thing that's motivating me to continue to find a surety is to not be introspective, to not look at myself, but to look outside of myself.  
  
What Paul is saying in 2 Corinthians 3:18 - 2 Corinthians 4 is that when we look at the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, that is when we are transformed into from one degree of glory to the next. Meaning that Paul isn't pointing the believer inward to look at the trajectory of their life; he's pointing them out and up. He does this at the end of Colossians 2\. He says all of these outward ways that you're trying to control your body. He even mentions asceticism. He says there is no value of stopping the indulgence of the flesh. Where does he point you? Up to Christ. Focus your attention on Jesus Christ. So triumphalism is inward - what are you doing and how do you make yourself better? Here are the steps.  
  
We would say the biblical call and even the confessional call is to point yourself out, _extra nos_, away from yourself to something that is greater that pulls you.  
  
Justin Perdue: I want to reiterate so that we're not misunderstood that transformation of life is real, and that everybody whom the Lord has justified in Christ Jesus, He will sanctify. At the same time, we want to be crystal clear that sanctification and the transformation of life is a community project. It is a corporate reality.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's a huge point, Justin. We say that, but I don't think people really feel what we're saying there. But it's huge.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's massive. When we read the New Testament, take the Epistles because this is where we often will go. All of them basically are written to congregations with the exception of the Pastoral Epistles that are written essentially to churches through the pastor. So they're all written into a corporate reality. If we think about the things that are described in the New Testament with respect to the transformation of life, they are all taking place most pointedly within the context of the community called the church. So it is not this hyper-individualistic journey and process that you're on. You're on a journey with your brothers and sisters in the church, and so you're looking to Christ.  
  
As you said, Jon, 2 Corinthians 3-4 most pointedly there described that reality that as we behold Christ, we're changed. But as we live life in the church, we're changed. So not only are we looking outside of ourselves to Christ, _extra nos_, for our justification and our standing before the Lord, we live an outwardly oriented life where we are concerned with the good of our brothers and sisters and the good of our neighbor.  
  
It's in that way that we are transformed and changed most fundamentally and most effectively. When we navel-gaze - we use that term a lot - when we are hyper-introspective and we're always focusing on ourselves and our performance and our progress, it actually is a great hindrance to our sanctification. We don't grow as we should and we often are just blind to many of the realities that exist. Where are we to take our gaze off of ourselves and fix it on Christ and our brothers and sisters and our neighbor? As God has intended, it would be much better for us. As Jon pointed out already, in that approach, there is peace and rest and assurance because we're looking outside of ourselves, and the Lord does His sanctifying work in us as we look to Christ and as we live in the church.  
  
So we can't beat that drum hard enough that we're all for the transformation of life, but it is a corporate reality. It is not an individual pursuit.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right. Let's be clear about something: we do believe that victory exists in the Christian life, and what we believe about that is that victory exists in the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That ultimately, Christ is victorious. What we are arguing to look toward is that the victory is not so much found in the increased goodness and sanctification of yourself, but the victory is found in your status, that you are a forgiven sin-sick wretch who is sitting under the banner of the victory of Christ.  
  
The other thing that is helpful to remember is what has been known as _simul justus et peccator_, that we are both simultaneously saint and sinner. That as we think about the Christian life, we live in a constant tension of Romans 7 and 8\. That we naturally wake up in a Roman 7 world - that we struggle with our flesh, we struggle with sin, we struggle with things that we never thought we'd struggle with - but we are constantly looking to the Romans 8 reality is that there is no condemnation for us in Christ Jesus.  
  
You guys might speak to this a little bit more later, but the _simul_ life - simultaneously saint and sinner - has been a very helpful category for myself even as I think about the everyday Christian life.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I know if there's someone new to Theocast and they're from a conservative, reformed, or even Calvinistic background, they're yelling at their phone or their car speaker right now. "But the Bible clearly says in 2 Corinthians 5:17 that for those who are in Christ, they're a new creature. Old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new. The whole put off the old man, put on the new man. There seems to be Paul saying that there is a trajectory where we are focusing on putting off the old man and that we are living in this new nature that we have, and the new nature provides us the ability to be progressing in our sanctification. So it sounds like you guys are ignoring these verses that. The reality you're describing is not the reality that I'm reading in the New Testament." How would you reply to such accusations?  
  
Justin Perdue: The same apostle who wrote 2 Corinthians 5:17 wrote Romans 7\. What we're trying to do is hold these things in appropriate tension and have a theology that incorporates the entire Bible, even all of the apostle Paul's theology. It is entirely right and true that in Christ Jesus, we are a new creation - we have been regenerated by the spirit of God, we have been circumcised, not by a circumcision that is made with hands or done in the flesh, but we have been circumcised of heart with the circumcision of Christ. So we have been raised to walk in newness of life and to walk in the good works that have been prepared beforehand for us to do.  
  
All of those things are entirely true, and there will be this transformation of life that we've already alluded to multiple times. There will be change. Jon, you described your own life. I'm different than I was 20 years ago. 17 or 18-year-old me versus me now in my later thirties... there is a world of difference. There's a world of difference from 10 years ago. I am in no way saying don't pan back and look at your life and praise God for what He's done. Of course we do. At the same time, we acknowledge that we are not yet fully sanctified. We are not yet glorified. We will know complete victory over sin and we will know only righteousness in our experience at the resurrection, but not until then. That's what we're trying to say. And Paul is crystal clear.  
  
Jimmy, you mentioned Romans 8\. Even if we think Romans 6, we think about our new identity. Our new war in Romans 7, our new hope in Romans 8\. That's the world that we live in. We're just trying to press back biblically with a more - dare I say the word - balanced approach. To say we can't just talk about transformation, we can't just talk about victory, we can't just talk about overcoming, and we can't just talk about the new nature. We've got to acknowledge simultaneous reality of new nature - saint, old man - we are not resurrected and fully sanctified yet. Those are both characteristics of our reality.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: As we look at sanctification, we do recognize that there is a progressive nature to it. Something we also need to remember is that there is a definite nature of sanctification that we are set apart by God in Christ. One of the things we wrote about in our primer on rest is that when we think about the corporate realities of church life, or even the individual realities of church life, is often when the emphasis is on the victorious Christian life or triumphalism, the gospel shifts to the background; the good news of what Christ has accomplished on our behalf moves to the  
  
Think about the modern evangelical way of sharing testimonies - what is the focus? Jesus changed my life or Jesus transformed my life. I'm not against that, but it often carries a message of, "You better not regress where you are right now. Otherwise Jesus didn't change your life."  
  
I'm going to say something that's probably going to blow people's minds and we'll get another email about antinomianism.  
  
My worst and most heinous sins have been committed after I became a Christian. Think about that. I have sinned against my wife and others in ways that if you would've told me about them when I was a teenager, I would have run from you and fear and said, "There's no way I'd ever do that. There's absolutely no way I'd ever do that." But here I stand, and I can say no other, that my nature to sin and my propensity to sin is great. It is unbelievable. Something I like to say to our church all the time is we are experts in sin. We're just naturally good at it.  
  
What we're trying to say is when the progress of the Christian life moves to the foreground, it is going to wreck you when you struggle. It is going to wreck you when you sin. Because you have it in your brain that your testimony is that Jesus changed my life, and if you regress anything lower than that standard of that day when you gave your testimony, you're going to find yourself in a heap of trouble because you're going to begin to question everything.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Jimmy, that is super insightful and helpful because it's true. If you were saved as a young child as I was, then your worst struggles are ahead of you. I was saved when I was 12 so my greatest, deepest struggles hadn't even happened yet even from a natural standpoint. If you come from a drug background and you are a partier and all of a sudden you're not there, you can have a false sense of assurance. You can even have a false sense of being good with God because "at least I'm not sleeping around and doing drugs anymore." When you always look to what you're not doing to find your assurance, that's very dangerous. It's very obvious that Christians are going to struggle.  
  
Scripture says you're a new creation - I want to reference that real quick - to Paul's warnings in Galatians 6:1 about those who are trapped in sin; all the warnings in Ephesians 4 and following about the battle and struggle against sin that you're going to have within; the internal battle that you're going to have.  
  
Justin Perdue: And church discipline exists for a reason.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It has to exist. So this is all true. But even going back to 2 Corinthians where it says you're a new creation, what Paul is saying there is that you are a new type of person that has never existed within humanity. Before now, we had people who are depraved, fallen under the curse of Adam, and now there's a whole new type of person. And this type of person is still living within a body that is depraved, that's fallen and sinful, but has the Spirit to give it power to have a belief and not be trapped to sin. He is not saying your new creation means you shouldn't struggle with sin anymore. This is triumphalism's biggest lie: that over time, the battle against sin goes away. I cannot tell you how many times I've had to sit down with individuals and say, "You are going to fight sin for the rest of your life. You'll never get to a moment where sin will no longer be tempting to you." That is just not a reality. Even the New Testament doesn't give us that reality. That is the lie of triumphalism.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's so damaging.  
  
The impression that people are given on how the battle with sin will go away, or sometimes the presentation is that the battle was sin will always be there but it will get a lot easier - as if it won't be as hard to do as you mature in the faith versus where you are now in your more infantile state - is just flat out untrue. It's patently false on the face of it because there are going to be times in our lives where the battle gets more intense as we grow. And that ebbs and flows season by season.  
  
I want to pick up on something else that you said, Jon, where we are putting our confidence oftentimes in a triumphalist framework; we're putting our confidence most fundamentally in our own transformation of life, rather than placing our confidence in the finished work of Christ in our place; we constantly are looking to how we've changed as the, the ground of our confidence. You're safe in Christ, but how do you really know that you're going to be in heaven? How do you really know that you're legit? "Well, it's because you have adequate and sufficient transformation of life to look to and to fall back on."  
  
This is just a public service announcement for everybody. Lest we think that we're crushing it in the Christian life, unless we think that we really are on this super soaring upward trajectory and we're just doing great... Let's consider the great commandment from the words of our Lord, that we're to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. Assess that honestly. In light of your life the last 10 minutes, let alone the last week - and give it 30 seconds of thought - if we rightly understand our minds and hearts, we would be prostrate on the floor before the Lord, saying, "Father, forgive me because I have not loved you with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength for one second of my sin-sick life." Even in our "best moments" as we perceived them, we're naive and deluded when we think we're doing that great. In our best moments, we are always debtors to grace and we are always looking to Christ. Even in our transformed lives, there is no ground to stand on to say that is legit. Only Jesus is legit. There will be real transformation that we can look to and have our assurance bolstered as we see the work of His Spirit in our lives. But we need to be more realistic in our assessment of ourselves in light of what God requires and nobody meets the standard.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That's right.  
  
In Scripture we have promises of how the body or how we are to be transformed. Paul very pointedly says in Ephesians 4 that when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love. The believer within the New Testament is pushed into a corporate reality, a body of believers, where you have people who are teachers, you have people who are gifted with giving and love. There are so many gifts. When we approach the Christian life this way, what we're doing is we're reaching out and grasping onto something that is pulling us towards Christ. We are not pushing ourselves to Christ.  
  
In the triumphalist system, the focus is always you getting better. It's like anybody who's working out - they adjust their entire life. If someone is trying to become fit, the way they eat, the way they sleep, how they work out, and when they work out - their entire life is focused in on that so they can accomplish that goal. Then we think this is how it works in the Christian life - the way in which you do everything spiritually, you're going to build yourself up - but it just doesn't work like that. Growth within the Christianity is a community event. It's always been that way, and that's how the New Testament pushes us.  
  
Let me give you an illustration here that I used for my church last Sunday. If you were going to say you want to consume God's word, or you as a church are going to consume God's word, and you start from the beginning to the end and just let God's word be read over you... I don't know if you've ever thought about this, but 95% of God's word is narrative and descriptive; it is describing how God accomplished redemption through all kinds of crazy stories of death, magic, people coming back to life - it's just the most incredible, gnarly ride from the beginning to the end. Then you get to the New Testament and in the Epistles, there are some very important instructions; you have the Old Testament Law that's still applicable to us. The Law doesn't take up a lot of word count and some of the Law applies to us - lying, stealing, cheating, and all that kind of stuff.  
  
When it comes to the New Testament, you're looking at 3-5% that is for you to read and obey. There are instructions in there for what you should be doing. This means the majority of your experience with God and His word to you is not focused on what you should be doing. It's focused on what God did to keep His promise. It's causing you to look outside of yourself and towards God and His faithfulness. Point being this: do you know the narrative of the Bible? Humans fail, God succeeds. We try and read the Bible and say, "I need to be better." Then we try and take guys like Daniel or David and use them as examples for our triumphal Christian lives. And yet those guys are failures.  
  
In the story of the Bible, where men have always failed, starting with Adam, is that we should have sought wisdom from God. Eve receives the fruit tempted by Satan. Adam should have taken the fruit, walked right over to God and said, "What do I do here?" Instead, Adam sought his own wisdom to be equal with God.  
  
And from that moment on, we have done the same.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There is an order to the text. We don't even have to look at the New Testament; let's look at the Old Testament. What you have in Exodus 19 is God who has brought His people out of Egypt. Something that has been so helpful for me is this: redemption always precedes commandment. When God brought the Israelites out of Egypt, He reminds them of these indicative truths of Himself: that He is the one who has saved them, He is the one who has borne them on eagle's wings, so to speak. Then he says, "Now if you will do this..."  
  
Even in the Old Testament, God always begins with indicative truths of Himself, and who He is. I believe it's Psalm 3 that says that salvation belongs to the Lord. As we look at the Bible, it is interesting to take the approach that it is a manual for us to execute a victorious Christian life, because if it's a manual, it's a silly manual. I don't want to insult God's intelligence that He could have written a better manual, but really what it is it's a grand narrative of redemption.  
  
As we begin to wrap things up here, what we're not saying is that transformation in the Christian life does not exist. It does, but it exists within the greater narrative of the Bible that salvation belongs to the Lord. That the victory always is in Christ and Christ alone.  
  
Justin Perdue: And that God is the one who does the transforming work in and through us. We don't do it ourselves.  
  
To wrap up with this thought of victory, we've described triumphalism in the terms of the victorious Christian life. We've already talked about how Christ Jesus is the victorious one. I think we would all be helped if we would just redefine what we understand victory to be. In the Christian life day-to-day, victory in the Christian life is most often described in terms of, if not complete, almost complete deliverance from sin and if not perfect, almost perfect affections and thoughts and the like. That's unhelpful. We've already depicted how that's bondage and slavery, and it's something that we will never achieve in this life just because of the fact that we still are fallen. But if we could redefine victory in these terms that victorious Christian living is continually taking our sin and our struggles and our shame to Christ in faith, and relying upon the Holy Spirit of God to do His transforming work in our lives.  
  
Jimmy, you were talking about the definite aspect of sanctification. Hebrews 10:14 is a favorite verse of mine for a reason where we're told that Jesus has perfected for all time, those who are being sanctified, if we would remember that perspective.  
  
"So what do I do, brother?" You trust Christ. You rely upon the Spirit; you live life in the context of the local church, and you wake up again tomorrow should the Lord give you life and you do that again. The next day you confess sin to the Lord; He's faithful and just to forgive you and cleanse you of all unrighteousness. Pray that God would give you grace that you might not sin, and we just continue to do that. There's nothing magical to it. It's going to be up and down. It's going to ebb and flow and praise God that Jesus Christ is victorious and that He's our righteousness always on our best day or our worst day. That's a more victorious approach to living the Christian life, and redefining victory is a piece of that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: We're going to go over to our members' podcast. For those of you that don't know what that is, it's a simple way for us to help support what we're doing here at Theocast. We are trying to produce audios, two different podcasts, transcripts, and books. All of this cost money and the way that we found that it's most helpful is to provide extra content for those donors who can support us on a monthly basis, or on a yearly basis. So if you go over to Theocast.org, you can learn more about our membership. We do an extra podcast, and to be frank, it gets pretty spicy over there.  
  
This is kind of where we walk into the back room, take our shoes off, and have a little more fun. Those of you who are members, we'll see you there. If you want to come check it out, there's a 14-day free trial. We encourage you to come check it out. We'll see you over there.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-triumphalism-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-triumphalism/)

---

### MEMBERS: Depression (Transcript)

*Published: May 20, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-depression-transcript*
*Tags: Anxiety, Depression*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-depression/)  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Welcome to the members' podcast. This is where we let our hair down a bit and have a little bit more of a raw conversation than we already do.  
  
We are talking about depression; what we want to talk about for the next 15-20 minutes is how do we really counsel people? What are the ways that are helpful to counsel people who are suffering from depression?  
  
Before we get there, I just want to thank you as our members for the support that you give us. The ways in which you support us really enable us to bring a lot of people rest in Christ. Jon sends Justin and me just various little blurbs of people who thank us for helping them rest in Christ. None of that is possible without your support. So, thank you for supporting us.  
  
Jon, I think you're going to lead us in here and how we counsel people through these ways in which are helpful. So why don't you bring us in.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Two separate conversations this week: one with a guy from India and another guy from South Korea, and they both have found our podcast in the last two months. Both told me that they have never truly understood rest or understood assurance. Once they found our ministry, they've been able to experience that.  
  
Just to encourage the listener: people around the world truly are being impacted by this message. Just know that we are super thankful for what you're doing. One of the things being in the COVID-19 circumstance is there is a lot of people who, left in their own fear and anxiety, left in their homes, are going to start to become very depressed.  
  
I've got several more scheduled conversations with people who are going through this state. I have to reach out to them and pull it out of them. "How are you doing? What are you feeling?" Eventually, I can get it out of them: "Pastor, I'm feeling really depressed at the moment." When I get on the phone or a Zoom call with these people, my first step with someone who is suffering is always to listen.  
  
Paul says this on two separate occasions: comfort the weak and weep with those who are weeping. It means to come alongside and suffer with them, to bear each other's burden. So, if their burden is depression, he does not say, "Come fix it for them."  
  
Galatians 6:1 says if they're in sin, we're to help them out of that, but this isn't an issue of sin but of circumstance. This is a difficult season, and it's causing some issues where there's melancholy of the soul. The first inclination of the pastor should not be, "Okay. Here's how we're going to fix this..." Nothing creates a greater amount of pressure and deeper mounts of depression than to think, "Oh great. I'm coming to get fixed, and he's not even hearing me. They're not even listening to me." Often people suffer because they just don't have anybody to explain what's going on. They feel trapped. They feel as if no one understands.  
  
The first thing that I think anyone needs to do when you're counseling is to just listen. Learn how to ask questions; where you're not talking, you're leading them to open up and expose the darkness of their soul. I'm sure Jimmy and Justin can attest to this: one of the most therapeutic parts of battling depression is being able to just tell people, "I don't know what's going on." Just having someone listen.  
  
"It doesn't sound very spiritual, Jon." You are being very spiritual. That's what Paul means.  
  
Justin Perdue: Dare we say you're being obedient to Scripture. You're doing what the apostles exhort us to.  
  
I'm not going to repeat everything that Jon said, but I may say some of it again and let that be a lesson to the listener of how united these three pastors are in thinking about how to counsel people through depression.  
  
I agree, Jon, that the first thing we do is not say anything. We listen. If we do say anything, we don't just quote the Bible. Perhaps begin with, "Brother or sister, I love you, I'm here, and I'm sorry. I'm sorry for what you're going through. That oftentimes is so encouraging. We feel less isolated and more like, "Okay, I'm not entirely by myself here. My brother or sister in Christ is listening to me," or, in this case, "My pastor is hearing me, and he is identifying with what I'm saying. He gets that this is hard even if he doesn't understand everything about it." The last thing in the world we need to do is approach counseling somebody who's battling depression land say, "Here's how we're going to fix you." That's really detrimental and damaging. Listen, demonstrate compassion and mercy with your speech, and then if you're going to give people Scripture in the short term, I'm going to go back to something I said in the, in the regular podcast: give them Christ. Point them outside of themselves and towards Jesus and his sufficiency, his love and mercy and compassion toward them. Point them to the fact that Christ was a man of sorrows. Help them see that they're not insane, that God's people have experienced these things before. It can give us a sense of comfort to know that there isn't anything uniquely wrong with me. There's nothing that's uniquely wrong with us that we're battling these things and feeling these ways. We have to start there if we're going to be any kind of help to people.  
  
Invite people in with your demeanor and your posture, as Jon was saying, invite them to open their hearts up and really share. A lot of times we're ashamed of the things that we're thinking and feeling, and we don't want to say them, but it's good for us to say them. Your posture is a pastor who has to invite that and make the person feel safe to say that kind of stuff.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something to keep in mind is that the culture in which we live here in 21st century America, as we think about the pastoral office, teaches us to desire a quick fix. We can become easily frustrated with people who are constantly struggling with the same things. "I've been pastoring this person for five years, and they don't seem to make any progress." We need to be ever so careful about that.  
  
Certainly, there can be things that we get frustrated over in terms of "progress". But when it comes to this topic of depression, melancholy, lowliness of heart and state of mind, there are no quick fixes. There are no microwave approaches to counseling people. We need to be careful. We need to care for their souls and be mindful of the unique ways in which they are wired. There is no medicine bottle that if you just take two of these a day, you're going to be fine.  
  
You may walk and pilgrim with people for the vast majority of their life, and at the end of their life, when perhaps you're doing their funeral, you say something like, "Billy here struggled with depression his entire life. We didn't really see any 'progress,' but what we did see is a good Savior who sustained his faith during the veracity of his life."  
  
I just want to encourage particularly the pastors who are listening - as one who struggles with depression, one of the things that were often provided to me was, one, is there a sin that you're hiding? Or two, are you reading and praying enough? My goodness. Just to heap Law on somebody who is struggling with depression is not going to have the outcome you think it's going to have.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The other option often is to hand somebody a book and say, "Read this, and it'll fix the problem."  
  
Justin Perdue: _Spurgeon Sorrows_ isn't going to fix anything. Let's just go and say that. It's just going to help you diagnose yourself a little better and point you to Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you are in the state of depression and it's not something that you have had long bouts with, and this is new for you... I remember working with a young man when I was in college ministry. He had suffered depression for his entire life, and he had gone to see so many counselors. By the time he had got to me, I honestly told him, "What do you expect me to tell you that everybody else hasn't told you?" I finally sent him to a doctor. Because he would say, "Jon, I can't think of a sin. I can't think of a reason. I've got a great job. My family loves me. I love our church. I love God. I love the gospel. I'm being honest with you, Jon; I don't have a secret sin. And yet there are times where I can't get out of bed for three days straight. I have to have someone call my work because I can't get out of bed."  
  
I said, "You got to go talk to a doctor. I just don't know." But there have been other times where the depression was because they had been physically assaulted, and it was something that they had never really gone through before. They had never really processed what was causing them so much grief and pain. To help them grieve and help them bear that burden, they were able to come out of depression. But those are two very separate circumstances. You cannot say that there is one solution to both situations cause there's just not.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to offer a few helps for depression. As I'm counseling people and living life with them, these are things that we would talk about over the course of time. This is not something that you're going to dump on somebody in the first meeting, but you're going to think and talk about these things in an ongoing way.  
  
We will begin with searching the word of God but use the word of God in the way that we're describing - not as a medicine cabinet, but as a testimony to the faithfulness of God and Jesus. Encourage people to lean into the church. That's another thing. To the covenant community of the church, our brothers and sisters whom we walk with and live life with, as we're battling depression it's really important that we would lean heavily on one another.  
  
Now I'm going to transition to some other things, at the risk of sounding absurdly unspiritual, that I think really do matter. From a reformed perspective, it makes entire sense because of how we understand the fall and the effects of sin on the totality of our person. Jon, you already mentioned about seeing a doctor - that's something that we should encourage people to do. You might want to talk to your doctor about what's going on with your body. Perhaps, like what Jimmy was saying in the other podcast, that maybe medication would really help you.  
  
My wife wouldn't mind me sharing this: she is on antidepressants and has been on them at various stages in our marriage. They have been very helpful. They don't fix everything, but they knock the edge off, and they help people get their feet under them a little bit. So, yes, go see your doctor.  
  
Some other things to consider: how are you eating? Is your diet reasonable? How much sleep are you getting? What does your rhythm look like with your sleep schedule? Are you getting any physical activity and exercise? How often do you enjoy good food and good drink? How often do you laugh? Do you get time with friends where you can just let loose and cut up and joke around a little bit? How often are these things happening in your life?  
  
I could go on with a number of other lists. Those things might sound unspiritual and just sort of practical and worldly, but they're not. This is how God has made us. These kinds of things are not the cure, but those are things to consider in the lives of people as we try to help them think through and sort through what's going on.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To disconnect your spiritual life from a physical life... I know it's true from my own life. If I don't eat healthily and I don't get enough sleep, I become very melancholy; nothing's right, everything's wrong; I can't think straight, and I can't study. What you do physically can affect you spiritually.  
  
People are going to be critical, but you are a physical being. Your body responds to what you do to it and how and what you put into it. So, I think you need to be cognizant of those things.  
  
I couldn't agree more with you, Justin, that we have to be aware of our surroundings and what's causing it. I've even had to encourage men to change careers. "You have to get a different career for the sake of your health and the safety of your family because you're destroying your body." Maybe you need a day off. Maybe you're struggling like crazy because you're just burning it at both ends. Maybe you need a vacation and some diversion from the task. It can be any number of things that might help. It might not cure it, but it might help.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: One of the things that I told people in my own experience is this: as you're struggling through this, you don't want to approach your own care like a knife where one stab is going to fix it all. It's more like a forked approach where you have physical to pay attention to. Certainly, there are some spiritual things.  
  
I do want to say this. You can be caught in a pattern of sin, and it's no wonder you're depressed because you've been hiding something. For me, there was a little bit of that. There could be a natural disposition, but I also want to give people realistic expectations.  
  
My wife and I dialogue about this all the time. My wife is just overtly a positive person. She's happy-go-lucky. Jon can attest to this, as he knows her pretty well. I am not that way. In fact, before we were married, before we were even dating, my wife and I were sworn enemies over this topic. She even called me overly negative.  
  
But the thing is you have to be realistic with yourself. You may not ever be that positive person that you want to be, and there has to be contentedness in Christ where you realize, "I just may not be that positive person." That doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be the negative jerk all the time, but be realistic as you approach this topic. You're not going to be the happiest person that you may likely be.  
  
Before we wrap it up, gentlemen, any other words that you would want to counsel?  
  
Jon Moffitt: I want to go back to something that Justin said. If you're new to Theocast and you haven't heard this a lot, we do emphasize the means that God has provided. Those means aren't to create within us this victory. The means are designed to bolster your faith, strengthen your faith, to cause you to have a stronger trust in the work of Christ.  
  
One of those means is the local body. The moment we are regenerate, we are brought to life, God brings us in and calls us family; He calls us children. We use His word body - hands and feet and eyes, and we've all been gifted. The body is designed to help you struggle through this. This is why Paul says again in Galatians 6:2, "Bear one another's burdens." This is Ephesians 4, where he says that when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love.  
  
It does not say when you digest enough Scripture, and you memorize it, and you pray enough, you'll build yourself up. It says when the body functions properly. Those of you that find yourself in the throes of deep depression, you need to trust the means that God has provided you to get through this every single day; that you can fight one more day to find hope, to look forward to the returning, to actually be a semi-functional. You need to trust the means, which is his preached word, the sacraments, prayer, and the body, the functioning of the body.  
  
We do hope that this conversation was helpful for you and to our members.  
  
Thank you for your support as we continue the work of the Reformation in the 21st century. Again, we invite you to check out Theocast.org, where you can find more resources like this as we seek together to rest in Christ. Thanks again for listening.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/depression-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/depression/)

---

### Depression (Transcript)

*Published: May 20, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/depression-transcript*
*Tags: Anxiety, Depression*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/depression/)**  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Hi, this is Jimmy. Today on Theocast, the guys talk about depression. It's something that's more common than we would like to believe, even within the lives of Christians. We hope to bring some helpful definitions around what depression is and what it is not. We also look at various scriptures and see just how common it is even within the broad narrative of the Bible.  
  
In our members' podcast, we talk about how we can helpfully counsel people who are working through depression. We hope you find this conversation helpful. Thanks for listening.  
  
Justin Perdue: Today we're talking about something that is relevant for many people: we're going to be talking about mental and emotional health, in particular depression, which is a common struggle for many of us. We're thankful the Bible is not silent on these matters. We know that because of sin and the fall, our entire personality - meaning not just our bodies, but also our minds, our hearts, and all of the realities of the psychosomatic union, everything wrapped up in being a human being - all of that has been affected by sin. We tend to struggle mentally and emotionally in terms of how we're thinking and how we're feeling. So many of us find ourselves in places where we're feeling flat. We're feeling gray; we're feeling discouraged, despondent, and despairing.  
  
That's not altogether unreasonable in a fallen world where death and suffering and all of these kinds of things are the norms and bad things happen. To be depressed is not insane in a Genesis 3, Ecclesiastes world. We're glad that the Bible speaks to these realities.  
  
God's people, through history, have lamented and despaired about their condition and the things that they experience. We're also thankful that the Bible points us to the steadfastness of God and His utter faithfulness. We want to have a good conversation today, from a reformed biblical perspective, about depression, and we're going to get into a number of other things.  
  
We want to try to describe depression and what it might be like for people that fight and experience it. What is it, and what is it not? I think there are some misunderstandings that we want to point out. We want to talk about where it comes from. Then we want to recalibrate the perspective and the thinking with respect to depression in the church, and how do we go about handling these things pastorally; how do we go about encouraging one another as brothers and sisters in the faith? How do we think well about God's faithfulness even in the face of depression and sorrow and despair?  
  
We hope this is an encouraging conversation, and we hope that this is clarifying and hope-giving in the midst of battling sorrow, the dark night of the soul, melancholy, and those kinds of things.  
  
Let's begin the conversation with what depression is and maybe some of the things that it is not.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I recently put out an article on the Theocast website about my own experience with depression and Mayo clinic, a large, influential research hospital here in Minnesota.  
  
They described depression as a mood disorder that causes a persistent feeling of sadness, and a loss of interests that affects how you feel, think and behave. It can lead to a variety of emotional and physical problems; you can struggle with making day-to-day things, day-to-day thought patterns, and other things of that nature.  
  
What I wrote in that article on Theocast.org is that it is certainly a great definition, and it does help create a frame around the topic, but one of the things that I like to say just really simply is depression is just a monster. It feels like there is a consistent weight on top of you.  
  
One thing that I want to be overly and abundantly clear from in the beginning is depression does not equate to mere sadness. I can be sad over war, over the death of a family member, a particular circumstance, but I can ultimately know that these things will pass. Whereas depression almost feels like an inescapable weight in that it's really difficult to pinpoint feelings. Even in my own experience with depression, there were days where I certainly laughed and joked and smiled and played and experienced a good time, but there was always this gnawing sense underneath that something was definitely off. So, I want to be very careful to say that depression is not necessarily sadness as much as it is a heaviness of spirit. Melancholy is the old word that was used; Charles Spurgeon uses that word a lot: having a "melancholic state".  
  
Justin Perdue: I think you're right, Jimmy, in pointing out a common misconception that depression just means that you're sad all the time. I think that's a flattening of it. It can be sadness, but there's a lot more to depression than that. A lot of times it's a feeling of flatness like I'm emotionally gray and devoid of feeling even. Sometimes it's a deep anguish and agony of the soul. Sometimes I honestly don't know that I feel anything about anything. It's been said before, not by me, and it sounds hyperbolic, but for people that have experienced the throes of depression, you're thinking to yourself, "If somebody honestly were to kill one of my children, I don't know that I would feel anything." I'm just devoid of emotion; I'm just that flat and that gray.  
  
We're waving around the book "Spurgeon's Sorrows" by our brother Zack Eswine. I think it's the most accessible, really good treatment of depression that I've ever read from a biblical theological perspective. He quotes Abraham Lincoln in the book, and it's absolutely excellent. Abraham Lincoln said about his own depression, "I am now the most miserable man living. If what I feel were equally distributed to the whole human family, there would be not one cheerful face on earth. Whether I shall ever be better, I cannot tell; I awfully forebode that I shall not. To remain as I am is impossible; I must die or be better, it appears to me." It's a gripping quote that I don't know if I'm going to get better, but if I don't get better, I just need to die because I can't remain as I am. Because this is how perplexed and troubled in my soul I am. This is the experience for many people.  
  
The last thing I'll say about the existential piece of this is that sometimes this is related to circumstances, and sometimes it is completely unrelated to anything circumstantial; you may even be thinking, "My life is actually going okay." Like my job is going well, my family is healthy, we're pretty stable, and I really don't have a lot to complain about. Yet I am depressed. Then there are other seasons where it's obvious that some of these circumstantial realities are contributing to my melancholy. It's a strange thing to know exactly where this comes from for people. And it's not just this one-to-one, this-is-why-you're-depressed. This doesn't work quite like that.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I myself have never met anyone who wants to be depressed or wants to remain in that state as if there's some kind of benefit to it. There are some sins that people do because they enjoy it - and I'm not calling depression sin, but there are causes as one can find themselves in deep depression. David did at times find himself in deep depression because of his own sin. Other times he can't point to a sin that's causing the melancholy of the soul that he is experiencing.  
  
What's hard for many is that they aren't given a category for what they're feeling. The church has, unfortunately, completely dropped the ball on how it is that we have communicated this to the church.  
  
Justin Perdue: One quick interjection, Jon. Just to clarify - I'll at least speak for myself and you brothers may very well agree - that like you said, I'm not calling depression a sin. I think that depression is something that comes upon people as a result of the fall, which I know we're going to talk about in just a moment. There can of course be sinful responses to that in terms of how we handle and deal with the depression that comes upon us.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I'm hoping to bring some relief for people who are unwilling to admit their condition. Some may not be able to clinically define it or be able to point out that they are depressed.  
  
I was with a good pastor friend of mine and at one point, the doctor we were with finally just said, "I don't think you know this, but you are depressed. You are clinically depressed." Then he began to describe what depressed people experience. It wasn't until someone told him that he was depressed, and he was willing to admit it that he began to now work on what caused it or what's leading to it.  
  
Sometimes depression sounds like an unspiritual state - that if you admit that you're in this position, there's something wrong with you spiritually. People always assume, "You just need to think about all the benefits of life that you have," then they go down this list of every reason why you shouldn't be depressed.  
  
Theologically, it gets worse. People are like, "Oh, you're depressed. Don't you understand the sovereignty of God? Don't you trust the Lord? Don't you know that He's faithful and good and that He's going to work all things for your eternal good? Don't you know that?" And the answer to that question would be, "Yeah, I absolutely do know that, and I am still battling depression and despondency. What do you have for me?"  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There certainly is a barrage of bad treatments out there. As much as I can emphasize for the listener, something to be mindful of is that depression often is not feeling sad about an experience or an aspect of my life. Considering my own experience: beautiful wife, beautiful children, beautiful home - during the time that I was going through my depressive state, there was very little in my life, circumstantially, that gave me good reason. If you mix some of the things that I was working through personally, as well as the natural dispositions that I had have as a person, it's so much more than just a feeling of sadness. I do like the word despondency; I often just felt numb. I would see something positive, but I don't have this overly emotive response to things.  
  
Certainly, my day-to-day experience would be different. There would be some days when getting out of bed was just a struggle, though not every day was like that.  
  
Perhaps we can kind of pivot the conversation to a more Christian perspective. What are some of the things that you find are very unhelpful in the ways that the broader Christian church, the broader evangelical church, treats and defines depression, and how they try to get people out of it, so to speak?  
  
Jon Moffitt: I've been around this for quite a while now with Theocast. We did an episode on this early on, and the correspondence that we received was very sad - it was depressing, to say the least. We heard stories about people who were trying to work through life-long battles of depression and evangelical leaders in their lives - their pastors or counselors - were giving them advice that would only trap them, handcuff them, and even lead them into greater depths of despair because they were not listening or they weren't aware. Within the whole biblical counseling world, there is even the idea that allowing medication for depression is sinful. "How dare you not trust in God's word, God's plan, and God's word?" That, to me, is so devoid of consideration that there are pain medications that have side effects. If I have arthritis and I take this pain medication, the side effect of this pain medication is depression. It is common, yet I don't want to feel the pain. So, I'll have to take this antidepressant so that I can be without pain and not be depressed. To tell someone that that's a sin is just not biblical. When we're talking about depression and medication and immediately say, "If you are taking antidepressants, then you are not trusting in God," then I'm sorry, but that is just not a biblical perspective that you can argue from.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Can I just be super raw with the listener that I myself am on a daily low dosage antidepressant? When I do not take this, my mind will go all sorts of places and run all sorts of miles per hour.  
  
I had all sorts of misconceptions. I thought that taking a medical antidepressant was going to quench the Holy Spirit within me because I wasn't be able to feel anything. Meeting with medical professionals who actually walked me through what happens in your body physiologically... It's so important to remember that we are spiritual people, we are emotional people, and we are physical people. There are certain things in our bodies, such as chemical imbalances, structures - things fearfully and wonderfully made by God.  
  
The way it was explained to me, these things can help bring you level rather than keep you in the negative, so to speak. I would just be open and honest with the listener to say it has been profoundly helpful. Now, it's not the only source of treatment that I have, but certainly, it has been very helpful for my overall mental health.  
  
Justin Perdue: Jon, to pick up on what you were describing before, I think we need to remember always that when it comes to the conversation about depression, mercy and compassion, always make room for the answer you're not expecting in terms of why somebody is depressed. We would do well in the church just to remember that reality.  
  
Some of the misunderstandings with respect to a whole host of issues, specifically depression in the conversation today, come from short-selling of the doctrine of the fall and sin. Sin and the fall have affected us far more than most are willing to acknowledge, even in the church. It's a deeper, more overarching, total reality.  
  
In the 1689 London Baptist Confession, chapter six in paragraphs two and three are on sin, the fall of man, and its punishment. There's language like this: that as a result of Adam and Eve's sin, we all have now become wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body. There's language of how we are now, because of Adam and Eve's transgression, in Adam we have become the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries - spiritual, temporal, and eternal - unless the Lord Jesus set them free. What we have to acknowledge here is that death and misery have entered the world through Adam and his fall, and we now have all inherited that condition.  
  
One thing that we're very adamant about here on Theocast, and this is true in reformed theology, is that sin is a state; it's a condition before it ever is an action. We see the effects of sin everywhere in creation. We see it in our bodies.  
  
This is an observation that I've made: we are really comfortable in the church to acknowledge sin's effects on our bodies in at least this way that we're all dying, right? We're all going to die; our bodies break down. We'll joke about how our knees hurt or how our joints are bothering us or how we can't do what we once could do because we're all getting a little bit of gray in our beard, hair, and everything else. We'll talk like that and the church, but here's the great irony. We are often very slow and hesitant to admit the wreckage and the struggles that exist in our minds and our hearts as a result of sin.  
  
Here's the thing. I think many evangelicals have bought into the lie that emotional, mental, and spiritual struggles should not exist for the Christian - at least not for the good and faithful types. Or if you get your theology right, you won't have these problems. If you understand things the right way, you won't struggle with depression.  
  
We just want to come in and say no. Because of sin and the fact that it's a condition and a state that we live in, we should expect Christians - even faithful Christians with good theology - to battle things like depression. It's absolutely and fundamentally critical that we would recalibrate the conversation from the jump with that - to say you're not crazy if you're battling this.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something that you said was really helpful - that we are very quick to recognize the effects of sin on our physical bodies; there is no immortal that has walked the earth; we all experienced the effects of sin in that way. Certainly, we can stay certain aspects of physical negativity, but through diet and exercise, and things like that. But we seem to make a shift when it comes to our mental health that we can control it - which is positive thinking; we can become overcomers with good theology and that everything's going to be smooth sailing.  
  
The fact of the matter is there is such a thing as the noetic effects of sin - that every crevice within your personhood has been impacted by the curse of the fall, and we need to be sensitive to that. As we think about counseling people, we also need to be sensitive that. As you think about even just physical exercise and physical weight training... those of you that are looking at this video, Justin and I are physically shaped very differently. Me getting in shape physically is going to look different than Justin. We can't just go in with a shotgun approach and say, "If you want to stop being depressed, you just have to do this and do this and do this." There is a patience and a slowness that we need to approach people's souls and care for them, understand their circumstance, unique struggles, and the unique dispositions. It's not as simple as we like to make it sound.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The solution when we're providing help and comfort to people is not all the same.  
  
We all have a number of children. Because you have multiple children, when you deal with your children, and there's a frustration or discipline issues, you do not discipline your children all the same because of their disposition and their personality and how they process discomfort. I have to talk differently to every single one of my kids because of the way that they receive information. When it comes to someone who's battling something as gripping as depression, there is not one solution.  
  
Here's the thing: salvation is simple; there is one solution to your problem when it comes to your standing before God, and it's called Jesus Christ and the gospel. But when it comes to the rest of life, it is not as simple. The Bible makes it very obvious that it's not that simple. When Paul cries out in his own frustration with his own pain and suffering, and he's called it a thorn in the flesh, and describes his own battle with the flesh and says, "Who will save me from this body of death?" after his salvation, being a regenerate Spirit-filled person, he still struggles with the body, and he still struggles with his own sin. Paul does not always give these solutions that are just a one-stop-shop, will-fix-all.  
  
If you've been listening to the podcast, hopefully, you're picking up on this: we are not offering you the solution to the victorious Christian life because there is no such thing as the victorious Christian life. There's the hope of the Christian life, but the victory does not come until Christ returns.  
  
Justin Perdue: Christ is victorious, and we will be victorious in that sense in him for eternity. But as it is right now - and this is a conversation that we've had before about the theology of the cross versus the theology of glory - we're going to be weak, and we're going to struggle now, but glory is coming. It will be revealed in us and to us and through us when Christ returns for us.  
  
I want to just read a few passages from Scripture, some Bible verses here to comfort those who are experiencing depression. One of the things we say on Theocast all the time is that you are not crazy if you are feeling these kinds of ways. You are not alone, and you have not lost your mind. God's people through history have known this kind of experience and have known this kind of despair. I'm thinking of language like in Psalm 77 where Asaph says, "When I remember God, I moan; when I meditate, my spirit faints. You hold my eyelids open; I'm so troubled that I cannot speak."  
  
The entirety of Psalm 88 begins and ends in darkness; it doesn't lift. It talks about the experience of being cast into the pit like, "God, you've put me in regions dark and deep; you have slain me. It's like I'm lying in the grave. People don't even remember me anymore. Like I'm like a man who has no strength." Solomon in Ecclesiastes 2 talks about how he hated life because what is done under the sun was grievous to him, for all is vanity and a striving after wind. All man's days are full of sorrow, and his work is a vexation. Even in the night, his heart doesn't rest.  
  
This is the language of Scripture. Paul talks in 2 Corinthians 1 about being. He says, "I don't want you to be ignorant of what we experienced in Asia for we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself." This is the apostle Paul.  
  
In Job 7, which is some of the most gripping words that I've read in all of Scripture, Job says, "When I say, 'My bed will comfort me, my couch will ease my complaint," as if saying to God that if he could just sleep, it would be better, "then you scare me with dreams and terrified me with visions so that I would choose strangling and death rather than my bones. I loathe my life; I would not live forever. Leave me alone, for my days are a breath." My goodness.  
  
Jesus was a man of sorrows; he was sorrowful to the point of death at the Garden of Gethsemane. These are the words of Scripture, so weary saint who is out there listening, who may be finding yourself right now in the deep dark throes of depression, you are not alone; God's people have known this, your Savior has known sorrow to the point of saying he felt as though he could die. Take heart and look to Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Adding the two of these together: understanding your state as a sinner - sin as a state versus sin as an action.  
  
Often what we suffer is because of the state we were born into: we're born into Adam, we were born depraved, we were born with sinful, broken bodies. In the garden, when Adam sinned, the ground was cursed, and from that, all of humanity has felt this curse. So, your Father is not ignorant of these things. This is His book, and we have to understand the way in which He has allowed this world, or He has formed this world.  
  
To add to some of what Justin is saying, the comfort often for someone who finds themselves in depression is this: even though you may not feel these truths about God, this is how God feels about you, no matter how you feel about Him. Some of these truths are from Psalm 56: 8 where he says, "You have kept count of my tossings," or of my misery, "you have kept count" meaning God is not ignorant of your level of depression every single day, "you put my tears in your bottle. Are they not in your book?" For every point, every moment, every second of your suffering, your Father is absolutely aware of it. He is not ignorant of it. Psalm 34:18 says, "The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit." This, for me, is the one comfort that I like to offer anyone who finds themselves either with depression or even anxiety; the God of the Bible is the God who knows - He is not unaware, and He is not ignorant.  
  
One last verse I love, to add to what Justin was saying, is Isaiah 57:15\. It says, "For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: 'I dwell in the high and holy places, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite.'" Meaning the God of the universe, this high and holy God we serve comes down to you who feels numb and depressed, who feels a lack of all things, and does not get angry with you. He says He comes to revive you and to remind you that hope is of your future. You may not feel that reviving now. The hope that God often provides for us is this: this misery you're experiencing is not your final destiny - that is safely secured with Him in heaven.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Zack Eswine talks about this in his book, "Spurgeon's Sorrows", in that often we can assume wrongly within the Christian life that a depressive state means an absence of grace or an absence of God's work in your life. He has a wonderful quote where he says, "We sufferers of depression in Christ may grow terribly weak, even in faith, but we are not lost to God. Contrary to those who tell us that we do not have enough faith or that we are condemned because of our inability to smile more. Depression of spirit is no index of declining grace. It is Christ and not the absence of depression that saves us. So, we declare this truth. Our sense of God's absence does not mean that He is so. Though our bodily gloom allows us no feeling of His tender touch, He holds onto us still. Our feelings of Him do not save us. He does." I think that's wonderful news. That is the gospel that people who struggle with mental and emotional health need to hear, that even in the midst of numbness and tears and the swaying of your emotions we are ever so mindful that it is not our grip of Christ that saves us, but rather his grip of us that does. The goal in depression should not always be, "I just want to feel better. I just want to get out of it." Certainly, that would be nice, but Zack Eswine talks about in the same way that believing in Jesus may probably not cure your asthma. The same way that believing in Jesus may not cure your depressive state. It could be a battle that you rage with day in and day out, that there is no state this side of heaven where you're going to feel really good 100% of the time. Rather, the hope of the Christian life is the resurrection - that we will be made new, that we will be glorified. When we are longing for the feelings of not being depressed, we are going to fully experience those in the new heavens and new earth. We look to Christ, not our feelings about him.  
  
Justin Perdue: One of the problems in the church is this perspective regarding depression (and a whole host of other struggles and battles against sin) is that you should be better by now. That if you're in Christ Jesus, you should be better than you are.  
  
Picking up on what Jimmy was saying, I would like to say a brief word of comfort to everybody out there who's battling depression, anxiety, or some kind of darkness of the soul: the fact that you are experiencing depression does not for one second mean that you are not in Christ Jesus. It's critical to understand that you are depressed does not for one second mean that you're not in Christ.  
  
What we need to do in the church, broadly speaking, is recalibrate how we talk about this and how we define, dare I say, the word progress because I think it's a dangerous word when it comes to depression. We need to redefine that word. Another word that's thrown around a lot is victory; we want to help people get victory over depression. I don't even know what to make of that statement, depending on what you mean by that word, because typically what folks mean in the evangelical world when we speak this way is this: "Here's the goal for you, brother. Here's the goal for you, sister. We need to get you to a place where you're no longer depressed, or we need to get you to a place where you're no longer getting depressed anymore, and that will be real progress, and that will be a victory in your battle against depression." As we've stated already, you may very well battle depression for the rest of your days until you die or Christ returns - and that is not to rob you of hope; it is to comfort you in the midst of your struggle and in the midst of your depression. Victory may very well mean taking your depression to Christ over and over and over again, and you're praying to God, "Father, here I'm despairing. I'm flat, dry, and gray. Help me. Give me grace. Sustain my faith that I might trust Your Son." We're looking to Christ and his work in our place, and we're taking our sorrow and our despair to him over and over and over again. That, my friends, is a better definition of progress and victory when it comes to this conversation about depression than what's commonly out there.  
  
This is harmful. It's a kind of bondage that exists. Somebody is already despairing, and now let's just pile it on. "Because if you would just get serious about this and apply the Bible rightly, you'd be better."  
  
Jon Moffitt: This only leads to greater discouragement and despair.  
  
We are called to walk by faith, not by victory. We aren't looking for the victory lap; we're looking for the hope that's in Christ. This is why in Hebrews 4:15, it says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in the time of need." To those who are depressed, run to God to find grace and mercy in a time of need - this grace and mercy just maybe to get you through the next day to get you over the next hump, to get you from 24 hours to the next 24 hours.  
  
It may sound like we're offering no solutions - there is a solution. It's called Jesus Christ, and he crucified; our ultimate hope is secure; we are safe in the arms of our dear Savior, but he never promised to fix you here. It's not the promise. That is a lie. It is horrible to be told that you can have glorification now. The more you progress in sanctification does not guarantee you that you will not have the effects of sin. I'm sorry, but I will turn up the volume here to protect the poor innocents that have been told they need to try harder, and that the more they try harder, God will bring them relief here. I'm sorry, but that is just not the promise of Scripture.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Perfectionism on this side of glory is a lie. It is not going to happen. You will not be perfected in your battle against lust. You will not be perfected in your battle against depression. You will not be perfected in your battle against whatever sin that you have.  
  
I know everybody likes to take that John Owen quote, "be killing sin or it's going to be killing you" kind of thing. They like to wield that as reformation theology's greatest quote. A lot of that is taken out of context; if you read Owen's writings, he is constantly pointing you to Christ and him crucified.  
  
The other thing that I want to point out, it's right behind Jon on his bookshelf if you're watching the video, there is a sign on his bookshelf that says _extra nos_. That is a Latin term that means the realities of the gospel, the good news of the gospel that exists where? They exist outside of you. What people are fighting and clawing for in their battle of depression is they are fighting for a greater subjective experience, whereas we are trying to point you ultimately to the objective realities of Christ and him crucified that the benefits of the gospel are applied to you by grace, through faith on account of Christ, that you are saved and safe in him, not in your experience of him. Jesus has saved you in spite of yourself. Ultimately, as you struggle with your frame in this life and the weaknesses, depressive thoughts, feelings, and emotions that you have, you have a greater hope that exists outside of you _extra nos_.  
  
You need to have that spoken over you - your subjective experience of Christ is not the barometer of truth, but rather the life, death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and enthronement of Christ are.  
  
Justin Perdue: Some listeners may be out there, and they're thinking, "Don't we need to use the Bible in our battle against depression? Don't we need to give people the Bible to help them fight this fight?" My answer to that question is yes, we do, but we need to give them Bible in an appropriate manner. Often we approach the Bible in a ridiculous fashion when it comes to a whole host of things. We look at the Bible like it's a medicine cabinet: here are your verses for depression, here are your verses for anxiety, here are your verses for lust, here are your verses for anger here, your verses for pride, etc. Then it produces this absurd scenario where we almost look at people, and we say, "You're depressed. Here are these three verses. Take these, and I'm sure by the time we grab coffee next Tuesday, you're going to be doing a lot better as long as you take these and meditate on them, think these over, and pray over them." It's just absolutely patently ridiculous to approach depression or any sin battle like that.  
  
Right now, we're talking about depression. We're talking with a depressed brother or sister, and we want to give them the Bible. What the Bible reveals is the utter faithfulness of God, and God's plan of redemption that He had made from before the world began, that would be accomplished through Christ Jesus and applied to sinners by faith through the work of the Holy Spirit. That's what the Scripture reveals.  
  
The Scripture reveals Jesus Christ crucified for you, Jesus Christ's perfect life for you, and Jesus Christ's triumphant resurrection for you. You're safe and secure because Jesus has secured your future. That is what the Bible reveals. That's what we need to be pointing people to when we give them Scripture in the midst of depression. We need to use the Bible well and point people to the faithfulness of God in Christ in the midst of their depression.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The Bible is not a medicine cabinet. Take two of these and talk to me in the morning, which I think is dangerous.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right. The Jesus pills.  
  
We could continue to talk about this all day, and frankly, it's a conversation that comes up between three of us a lot. But something I think we should pivot to in our members' podcasts is this: how do we counsel those who are serial suffers of a depressive state or melancholic state? We're going to hop over to our members' podcast and talk about that in a few moments.  
  
We want to thank you, as a listener, for tuning into this podcast as we seek to unravel the great things of this life, and today, one of the awful things of this life, and talk about it from a reformed perspective.  
  
We're going to head over to our members' podcast. If you are interested in learning more about that, you can head over to Theocast.org. Being a member really helps our ministry continue to go forth as we continue the work of the Reformation in today's context.  
  
Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation was helpful to you. We ask that you share it with those who you think would benefit from it. To our members, we'll see you in a few moments.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-depression-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-depression/)

---

### MEMBERS: Law/Gospel Distinction (Transcript)

*Published: May 13, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-law-gospel-distinction-transcript*
*Tags: Law &amp; Gospel, Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction, reformed law gospel, Reformed Theology*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-law-gospel-distinction/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. As always, we do mean it from our hearts when we say thank you. All of you members who support us financially and partner with us in this way, don't underestimate what your financial gift for a month does for Theocast. We mentioned in the regular part of this podcast that we hope to turn even this episode into a primer. The publication of that kind of literature, including the ability to pay for services that transcribe these podcasts, and such would not be possible without your partnership with us. Thank you for that and continue to spread the word about Theocast so that we can continue to offer more podcast resources, and also offer more written material. We have hopes and plans and designs, and we want to see those things come to fruition. We trust that you do too. Thank you for your partnership.  
  
What we want to do now, as we alluded to in the regular episode, is we want to continue to spin out the implications of the distinction between Law and gospel. In particular, we want to think about implications as it pertains to assurance.  
  
There are all kinds of fallout from collapsing Law and gospel, but keeping an appropriate distinction between Law and gospel leads to rest, peace, and assurance. The hope for our conversation in the next 15-20 minutes is that we can spend some of those things out.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The primary mission of Theocast, as we see it every week, is to help weary pilgrims find rest in Christ. We try very hard to see what robs it and what brings it; Law-gospel distinction, I think, is probably one of the key components to finding rest in Christ.  
  
As someone who was beginning to become a very angry Calvinist who "glawspeled" everything, I didn't understand that Christ was giving Law to his followers not as legitimate followers, but those who were following him around until they left in John 6\. Jesus kept giving them Law to help them understand that they didn't need a better righteousness, and they didn't need healing, and they didn't need Jesus to provide food; they needed the living water; they needed the living bread. Jesus even used cannibalism to help expose how off they were when it comes to accepting Christ as pure and 100% unadulterated salvation and nothing added by you.  
  
For those of you who struggle, you look at your life and say, "I just don't measure up. I can't measure up. I don't feel like I have enough." I just want to dip in right there and say if you have any, that is enough. The sad part about Law-gospel distinction is that when you mix the two, you'll never know if you have enough because the Law is so demanding. How can you even remotely measure them? Where's the line on the wall where every Christian walks up to and says you can get on the ride to heaven? "We don't know where that line exists except here: either it's in Christ or out of Christ. That's where the line is - in Christ or out of Christ. How are you in Christ, according to the gospel? By faith.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think one of the greatest tragedies that have come in the evangelical church is that we have taken one of the sacraments of the church, and we have made it a time of Law. I'm talking about the Lord's Table. For so much of my life, the Lord's Table was a time to morbidly introspect the deepest recesses of my heart and try to discern, "Am I good enough to receive this? Am I worthy to receive body and blood of Christ? Where in essence, I think it would make the Reformers turn over in their graves when we take something that Christ has given us like that. He has given us the Lord's Table as what? As a means to increase our faith and establish our faith.  
  
Justin Perdue: To sustain it and confirm it.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Right. For me, it was just a deep time of Law. "Have I done this? Am I worthy of this?" Where the Lord's Table forever stands as a testament that I am never enough, but that Christ is enough on my behalf.  
  
Do we examine ourselves? Do we examine ourselves at the Lord's Table? Scripture calls us to that end. But even in that sense, we're talking about 1 Corinthians 11 like, "Examine yourselves corporately. Are you sinning against the brethren by the way that you're participating in the Lord's Table here?" It's not this morbid introspection of, "Am I good enough? Have I done enough? Have I repented sincere enough? Have I confessed enough?" Rather we approach the Lord's Table as those who are sick with sin and say, "I need this. I need this meal. It is a hot meal on a cold day of my soul. That's what I need."  
  
Justin Perdue: The Lord's table has been turned into such a moment of anxiety for so many people. Any introspection knows no end. Is it about our performance and how I've sinned and all these things, but like you even said, is my repentance sincere enough, or am I grieved enough over my sin? Do I feel badly enough over my sin so that I'm worthy to come to the table? The answer to those questions is most certainly not. If what it means to be a worthy participant at the Lord's Table is that you have done or feel appropriately, then none of us should ever come.  
  
But as Calvin says, the table is not for the strong; it's for the weak. We agree completely with that. It is for those who understand that they're weak, needy, and are debtors to grace, and have no shot on their own and know that they have blown it this week.  
  
Those are the people that come to the table to receive Christ - his body and blood, his merit, his perfect obedience, his perfect record, his atoning work, and satisfaction of the entire penalty of the Law for us. That's what we receive by faith in the table. The collapsing of Law and gospel is this constant exhortation and beating of the drum that you hear in so many pulpits in context to examining and assessing your life. "There are all kinds of people who profess faith in Jesus. How do you know that you're legit? Well, look at your life. "We agree with the confessions that we can have our assurance bolstered by looking at the fruit in our lives, but we could never find our assurance and confidence in looking at our lives. But that's what it seems like these guys are telling us - to look at your life to know that you're in Christ. I can be encouraged, but I could never know that I'm in Christ by looking at my life. Are you kidding me? It's a circus going on in my mind and heart; it is often not pretty; it is anything but consistent; It ebbs and flows and comes and goes; man alive - it's really no place to stand.  
  
We've talked about the Sermon on the Mount earlier where Jesus, at the end of chapter 5 verses 45-48 in that section, he talks about God and what God is like. He tells us that we must be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. Again, we take him at his word that what's required is perfection. He's told us in the early verses of chapter 5 that we need to have a righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees, and the Pharisees were pretty righteous when it comes to keeping the Law externally.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Paul said he was blameless.  
  
Justin Perdue: I trust that Paul and the Pharisees, in general, lived more disciplined lives than most of us. And Jesus is like, "Your righteousness better be far superior to theirs if you're going to be with me forever in heaven." How could we ever assess our lives and then know that we're in Christ? Can't be done.  
  
We obviously are just pointed back in on ourselves; we're pointed to quicksand, not solid rock. The inconsistency is abounding here, and I could rant on for a long time because the same individuals who tell us to assess our lives to know that whether we're in Christ will have us sing "The Solid Rock" at the conclusion of their message. Well, which is it? Because you just lambasted me for 45 minutes and now tell me to sing about Christ. I'm confused.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think all the confusion also is a morality outside that we always emphasize. How do you look on the outside to the world? How does the world observe you? What Jesus does in the Sermon on the Mount is he says, "God looks at your heart. He doesn't look at your actions. I looked at your heart." Everybody can look at your actions and assume you're a pretty solid guy. For the most part, the world can look at Jon Moffitt and say, "Jon Moffitt is a law-abiding, solid guy," and God looks at the heart and says, "He is evil, desperately evil." God knows every thought and intention; He knows my fears, my anxieties, my lust; He knows my bitterness; He knows when I am envious. If we're talking about a balance here –I've got the Holy Spirit in me now, I've been transformed into His image, I have a new heart and a new desire - so do my godly desires outweigh my sinful desires? I don't think so. I don't know if I could ever even measure that. But that is what we are being told, that if your godly desires don't outweigh your sinful desires, then you may not be a believer.  
  
Here's what the Bible even tells us: that we don't even know the extent of our sinful desires. God hasn't even revealed to us how evil we truly are. If you are looking even to desire like, "I desire God more today than I do my sinful desires, therefore I must be a believer," you are going to be a wreck. That is where people find themselves. I have to say God looks at the intentions of your heart and says, "Christ covers your intentions. The ones that are not godly, they are fully covered."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Telling somebody, "It's okay, God knows your heart," those are not comforting words. When I'm struggling with some weaknesses and some sins and somebody says, "Jimmy, it is okay because, in the end, God knows your heart." Yes, and that's exactly what I'm terrified of because my heart is wicked. There is no health in me. I don't think I can look at something in the past 24 hours that I've done with completely pure and holy motives.  
  
Justin Perdue: You can try your whole life.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I won't even go that far. I can just go 24 hours.  
  
We don't look within. If we are constantly looking in for assurance, we will never find it. That is what the Law ultimately points us to. When we preach and collapse categories of Law and gospel, where we turn people to ultimately are their efforts, their merits, their own works, and deeds done in righteousness rather than the finished work of Christ.  
  
Justin Perdue: The reality is that most people show up to church again, if they're aware and honest at all, and they're thinking, "I have blown it this week. What do you got for me?" What's sad is that we receive messages so often that where we're being asked to assess our performance, "Have you failed in this way?" I'm sitting there thinking, "Yeah, I've most certainly failed." Have you done enough here? "No. I have not done enough that way." Is the trajectory of your life satisfactory? "I don't think that it is, and I have no idea how to even measure that because God's Law is not relative in any sense." This is something that we beat that drum constantly.  
  
Jon, you mentioned this earlier, but to pick back up on it, there are two places that we can stand with respect to the Law: we either have broken it and stand condemned, or we have kept it perfectly and are thereby righteous. There's nothing in between.  
  
There is no relative keeping of the Law that is meritorious in any sense. We can't measure our keeping of the Law like we would a child's height against the wall because the Bible is clear: you've either kept it, or you've broken it. It's very confusing for us when we're told to examine our lives and use the Law that way.  
  
We've done podcasts before where we've talked about the uses of the Law, and I'm not going to do that right now, but using the Law lawfully means that we keep the uses of the Law in view and that when we preach the first use of the Law, which is to show us our sin and drive us to Christ, that we're clear about that.  
  
Then when we're preaching the Law as a guide for our lives, we don't preach that in a threatening way, but we encourage people: "These things are good for you. These things are bad. In Christ, align your life with God's word, but do that knowing that you're safe and that God is working in you by his Spirit to accomplish His good work in you."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Hopefully, you are hearing the importance of learning how to read your Bible and how to decipher sermons that you hear. Am I receiving Law, or am I receiving gospel? Every single man around the microphone respects the Law and upholds the Law and thinks the Law is good.  
  
The two greatest Laws, the two greatest commands that we have, we wholeheartedly make it our ambition to love God and to love our neighbor - and we think those are good. Those are good ambitions because we find our rest and assurance in the gospel; our rest and assurance and the gospel frees us from condemnation, fear, and dread to delight in God's Law because we are not obeying it to receive something from God. We're obeying it because we think it's good, and we think it's pure, and we think it glorifies God and accomplishes His mission. As we love each other, it accomplishes the mission of furthering the message of rest to the world.  
  
When you do not separate Law and gospel, when you put them together, you're now loving God and loving neighbor out of fear. Because if you don't do it, you're afraid that God's going to abandon you. If you are never afraid of God abandoning you because you've separated the Law and the gospel, you are now set free to obey horribly. You're going to do a horrible job of obedience, but you're not going to focus on your failure; you're going to focus on your goal. This is 2 Corinthians 3:18 when it says, when we look at the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, we are transformed into His image. It becomes our ambition to look to Christ, find the glorious Christ as our safety net, and then it's from that moment I love God, and I love neighbor knowing that I won't do it sufficiently enough, and it is Christ's sufficiency that covers me. So, keeping the Law and the gospel separately is the way in which you truly find your motivation, I think, for obedience.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something I would just want to encourage the listener toward if the Law-gospel distinction is new to you; it is not something that's going to come overnight. It is not something that is perhaps even going to come easily. I remember when we interviewed Rod Rosenbladt a few months ago in October, we talked to him about this very topic. One of the things we asked him was, "What are some of the common critiques of Law- gospel distinction?" He said, "The number one is people think it's something that we impose on the text." And it's going to take some time to really work through that. So just be patient, continue to read and study, look into how the Reformers talked about this - there are some really helpful resources. I wholeheartedly recommend _The Whole Christ_ to you by a Sinclair Ferguson – it's a wonderful resource as you dive into this topic. But don't become frustrated if it's something that you don't understand right away. I remember when I was a listener of Theocast, and you guys were talking about this. I'm thought, "What are these guys talking about? I've never even heard of this stuff." It's not that it's new language, it's just that it's very old and we've forgotten it. Be patient, push through, read some things that you don't understand, and then read them again. Trust us when we say that when it clicks, it's like a drink of cold water, and it's awesome. So just push through. I just want to encourage the listener towards that.  
  
Justin Perdue: Jon, you said just a second ago that if we have an appropriate understanding of the distinction between Law and gospel, it leads to rest and peace and freedom. And that's exactly right. A collapsing of Law and gospel leads to bondage and hyper introspection that really can rob us of our assurance. It's important for us to remember that God's design for us in Christ Jesus is that we would not be hyper introspective but that we would be outwardly oriented toward him loving God and then loving neighbor. Those are the first commandment and the second commandments: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength, and love your neighbors yourself. Both of those things are oriented outside of us; they're not looking inward.  
  
CS Lewis says this in _The Screwtape Letters_, and I think he's right, that even when it comes to our sins, God's design is not for us to dwell on them and to constantly contemplate our sins. Once our sins have been repented of, then we are to move onward in love of God and loving our neighbor and not be bogged down by this constant assessment of how we're living and how we're performing.  
  
Keeping that distinction between the Law and the gospel, what Christ has done for us, is absolutely pivotal if we're going to have peace before God; this is pivotal if we're really going to be set free and turned loose in every good way to accomplish the mission that we've been given - that is to herald Christ, encourage others to rest in him, and love our neighbors well, honor the Lord, and all the rest.  
  
This has been a good conversation. We hope that this has been encouraging for you, the listener, as we've thought about the Law and gospel distinction and the implications between those and what that means for our freedom and our peace and our assurance.  
  
We would encourage all of you to continue to trust Christ. He is your righteousness; that is not just true on your better days, that is true all the time. He has obeyed perfectly for you and satisfied all of the penalties of the Law for you, and we rest in him. Continue to trust Christ and love one another.  
  
Again, we thank you, members, for your partnership with us. Look for some of the resources that are coming your way by the time you're hearing this podcast. Continue to reach out to us. Let us know how we can love and serve you well. Thank you again for your partnership. Keeps spreading the word about Theocast and keep resting in Christ. We'll talk with you guys next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction/)

---

### Law/Gospel Distinction (Transcript)

*Published: May 13, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/law-gospel-distinction-transcript*
*Tags: Law &amp; Gospel, Law and Gospel, law gospel distinction, reformed law gospel, Reformed Theology*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/law-gospel-distinction/)**  
  
Justin Perdue: Today on Theocast we are going to talk about one of the most important doctrinal issues that we ever consider on this show. It's something that we talk about quite often, and that is the distinction between the Law and the gospel. The Bible contains passages that are Law and passages that are gospel. Sadly, we've observed that those two categories are often collapsed in the evangelical world.  
  
In the conversation today, we're going to define the terms Law and gospel - what we mean by those, and think about the distinction between the two. We're going to consider some passages from the Bible that are often confused where Law and gospel are collapsed. Then we're going to think about the fallout that is produced by this confusion of Law and gospel and what it means for our assurance.  
  
In the members' podcast, we talk about the implications of Law-gospel distinction for our assurance, our peace, and our rest in Christ. We hope that this conversation is helpful and encouraging to you. Stay tuned.  
  
We're having another one of those foundational conversations today; we did this a couple of weeks ago in talking about assurance. Our hope with some of these conversations is to turn these into primers for people to be able to read. Today we plan to have a very foundational conversation. It's about a topic that we discuss regularly on Theocast that we think is absolutely essential for our understanding of Scripture. It's essential for all kinds of things; it has a lot of implications for assurance and other things.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Today, we are going to talk about one of our favorite topics, which is Law-gospel distinction. When we read Scripture, how do we make sense of the verses that seem to speak in such a way that can perhaps generate fear, anxiety, doubt, insecurity, and makes us pause for question? How do we reconcile those with the passages that we also see in Scripture that are meant to bring us comfort and hope and assurance and all that? We believe that the proper way to understand these things and to reconcile and marry them is to have a proper understanding of the Law and the gospel, and specifically how we distinguish those things.  
  
When we say Law and gospel and how we distinguish them, a simple way to think of that would be this: The Law is the commands of Scripture that tell us what to do. In other words, the Law is the imperatives of Scripture: do this and live. The gospel is the indicatives of Scripture. In other words, the gospel declares to us what God has done in and through Christ.  
  
That is a very simple definition, but now we want to flush that out for you to help you understand it a little bit more.  
  
Jon Moffitt: In a helpful quote from a book called _The Marrow of Modern Divinity_ by Edward Fisher, Fisher is giving a distinction here between the Law and the gospel. He says, "The Law says thou art a sinner, and therefore thou shall be damned," uses Romans 7:2 as an example or 2 Thessalonians 2:12, "but the gospel says, no. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners and therefore believe on Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved." 1 Timothy 1:5 or Acts 16:31\. So you have the Law - any passage that says, "do this," and if you don't do it, you are damned. It's not relative goodness. The Law does not look for you to do your best. The Law says you must perform perfectly. The gospel is the exact opposite. The gospel is good news and says there's nothing to perform. There's nothing that's required. It's a gift given to you. It's good news being heralded that you are rescued, so you have demand versus rescue, hope versus dread is the way that we have to define those two separately.  
  
Justin Perdue: To put a few paradigms out there in trying to sum this up relatively succinctly, and I'll be repeating a little bit of what the guys have said, but nonetheless, I trust it's helpful. The law says, "do this and live." The gospel says, "Christ has done it, now live in him." If we want to be more succinct, the Law equals do, the gospel equals done. Those things are helpful for people as we try to distinguish categories.  
  
And the last thing I would say about this, perhaps this is helpful to me in thinking about a Law economy; men earn favor with God through what we do. In a gospel economy, we receive favor with God by believing not by working. We're believing upon the Lord Jesus and what he has accomplished. We are not striving after something that we would earn through our own works and merit.  
  
Jon Moffitt: There are passages that anybody would be able to pick up and say, "This is the gospel." John 3:16 is clearly a gospel passage. Praise be to God for such a wonderful passage. And then you go to Exodus, and you go to the 10 Commandments. Obviously, that's Law - that is the pinnacle of the Law. It's easy to see passages like that where it's "do this and live", the Law, 10 Commandments. Everyone would say that. And then John 3:16, everyone would say this a gospel passage. But what would you guys say are passages that maybe aren't as clear? And we can tend to mix them where we make the gospel now have requirements, and we get "glawspel", as Patrick Abendroth has coined it, where I'm assuming he's going to. Will we get "glawspel" passages?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's a good question. I think probably one of the most significant examples is Mark 10, where we see the rich young ruler approach, Jesus. He says, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus responds to him and says, "Why do you call me good?" In essence, "if you're calling me good, no one is good but God alone, so if you're going to call me good, you're going to call me God." So, let's just get that out of the way. What does Jesus respond to him? I think all of us would agree that the question, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" is not a bad question. It's a sincere, honest, and good question. How do I get eternal life? What do I need to do? And Jesus responds to him, and he says, "You know the commandments." And Jesus begins to list off various commands that we see. And how does the rich young ruler respond? He responds with a very interesting phrase. He says, "All of these I've kept from my youth."  
  
It's at this moment that we see Jesus begin to, in our view, turn up the heat of the Law. What Jesus does is, he says, "If you would then be saved, go sell all that you have and give it to the poor." In that moment, when we do not properly distinguish the Law and the gospel, here's what we can do with that passage: we can say that Jesus is preaching the gospel to this young man and the gospel in that passage is radical giving or radical generosity or keeping the commands of God. In fact, what do we see later on in that narrative? The disciples pulled Jesus aside, and they're like, "Jesus, if that's the call, which can be saved?" And Jesus says, "With man, it is impossible, but with God all things are possible." And we see this in Luke - what did Jesus go and do later on? He meets a very rich man named Zacchaeus. What does he do? He saves him? And so, when we do not properly distinguish between Law and gospel, specifically in Mark 10, the rich young ruler, we can say the gospel is radical living.  
  
Justin Perdue: Wow.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It can be very confusing and damaging to people, specifically in the realm of their assurance. I know there are other passages that you guys want to bring up as well.  
  
Justin Perdue: How many times have we heard that passage preached, Jimmy, where the gospel is "surrender all to Christ, and you'll be saved"? You're spot on in pointing out the fact that Jesus is not giving that young man gospel. He's actually turning the temperature of the Law upon that young man. He's dumping the full weight of the Law on his conscience.  
  
Another passage that that comes to mind is the greatest sermon on the Law that's ever been preached, the Sermon on the Mount - and this may be an entire show in and of itself, to talk about the Sermon on the Mount - the biblical, redemptive historical theological stuff going on. The Sermon on the Mount is epic in that Moses gave the Law to God's people on a mountain and now the Lord himself is sitting on the side of a mountain giving a sermon on the Law to his people, and he's unpacking the Law and all of its implications and aiming it and applying it to the hearts of men.  
  
If we don't have the distinction between the Law and the gospel in our minds, we'll do all kinds of bad things with the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus begins that sermon in verses 17-20 by explaining to people that he has not shown up to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but he has come to fulfill them. Then he begins to unpack the Law and demonstrate to people that nobody actually has kept the Law, though he's speaking to people who think that they're doing a decent job of it. This is where he begins by talking about lust and anger and these kinds of things. "You've heard it said that you should not commit adultery. But I say to you that if you have lust in your heart after somebody, then you've broken the Law," or, "You've heard it said, 'do not murder'. Well, I'm telling you that if you are angry with your brother, then you have broken the Law." He gives a number of other exhortations and imperatives throughout that sermon. But it's very clear that in the mind of Christ that he has fulfilled the Law in the place of his people, and now he is helping them see that they cannot keep the Law and thereby need to look to him and trust him.  
  
If we're not preaching the Sermon on the Mount that way, we end up saying all kinds of things like, "You need to battle lust vehemently," and, "You need to battle and fight against anger in this particular way," and, "You need to live this way and live that way in order to be right with God and be pleasing in His sight." That's not the message that Christ is giving at all. He is exhorting these people to all kinds of things, but underneath the banner of "I have fulfilled the Law for you."  
  
Jon Moffitt: The original intentions of the Law were never to save anyone. If you go back to Moses, and when the Law was given to Moses to give to the people, it was not "do this and live". What I mean by that is God has never called people to Himself. Abraham didn't look to the Law. There was no Law to be justified, and Abraham was the father of Israel, who then passed it down. Every human being in the Old Testament has always been justified by faith. The Law was designed so that they could have fellowship with God and protection by Him. God also used it as a schoolmaster to teach them, "Don't trust your own righteousness."  
  
What were they doing when Jesus showed up? They were trusting in their own righteousness in the Law to make them justified before God. Jesus was saying, "Let me turn it up to the level it's supposed to be because no one is justified by the Law." This is why it is so dangerous to go back to the rich young ruler or really to any question that Jesus receives, "How much should I be saved?"  
  
Jesus rarely gives the gospel. Very rarely. Yes, to those who are beaten down by the Law, Jesus says, "Come to me, all you who are heavy laden by the Law, and I will give you rest." He literally says, "My disciples are those who believe in me." People say they'll follow Jesus because they're adding to their righteousness. But Jesus goes, "No, unless you forsake everything - mother, father, everyone - and follow me, you can't be my disciple." He's not giving gospel there. That's not gospel. Gospel is not "forsake everything to follow me". No one can do that. It's impossible. It's not within our capacity. Jesus was doing was turning up the volume in order for you to say, "That's impossible, Jesus. No one can do that."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: It's important to keep in mind that when we think of God's Law, God's Law doesn't just apply to our outward actions. This is what the Sermon on the Mount portrays - beautifully and condemningly - that the Law of God does not just talk about our outward action actions, but it also talks about the inward posture of our hearts and minds.  
  
That's why Jesus says such terrifying things. "You've heard it said that if you commit adultery, that's sin. I say to you, if you even look at a woman with lustful intent, then you've committed adultery." My goodness. What? What am I supposed to do?  
  
So please do not hear us say that we are only preachers of the gospel. Certainly, there is room, and we should preach the Law in all of its force. What we would argue for around these microphones is that when we preach the Law, we are preaching the Law as Jesus preached it - that it is dialed to 11 - and that what the Law does is it removes any hope in and of yourselves to have any self-righteousness. When you preach the Law properly, what it does to you is it reveals how sin-sick and miserable you are. However, when we preach Law and gospel, the gospel does what? The gospel lifts you and shows you that the good news is that Christ has fulfilled these things on your behalf, and your posture now is to receive that and rest and believe.  
  
Justin Perdue: Jesus, in his context, is speaking to an audience who either understands that in and of themselves they are righteous and they're trusting in that, or they assume that they can achieve righteousness. So, he explodes those notions over and over and over again. To Jon's point a moment ago, I would say that 90-plus percent of the time that Jesus responds to a question about eternal life, he gives Law and not gospel, and that's true.  
  
We've talked about the Sermon on the Mount. We've talked about the rich young ruler. Another significant passage is when he's asked about the great commandment. He says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And a second is like unto it: love your neighbor as yourself." This is how the kingdom of God is attained.  
  
We look at that, and rightly we would conclude that we've never done either one of those things for five seconds of my life. How in the world could I ever have hope? To think about the language of Paul in Galatians 3, Romans 5, the Law was given to increase the trespass. It was given because of transgression. It is the schoolmaster. It is this instrument that God has given us to show us who and what we are and to drive us outside of ourselves to the Savior. It's exactly right that we understand that the Law was never given that men would be saved by it, but it was given to wreck and undo us, and to show us the only way of salvation - which is through Christ and the Messiah.  
  
Here's the thing. When Jesus answers the questions like the rich young ruler's question, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" He says to keep the commandments. That's exactly right. No one will ever live with God forever, who has not kept all of the commandments perfectly. We have to be clear that if you break one command and you've broken the entire Law, this is again Galatians 3, it's James 2, and it's Deuteronomy 27 that you've got to keep all of these things all the time or you're done.  
  
The reality for us in the gospel is that Jesus has kept the Law perfectly and that by faith in him, his obedience is counted to us. It's as though we have done what he did, and so works will save us, but it's not. We are saved by the works of Jesus in our place, applied to us by faith.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To add to what you're saying, Justin, we go to the New Testament, the Epistles. There were writings of Paul, and even 1 John, where you can also see a lot of "glawspel" happening where, you are given commands like, "Examine yourself." We've seen that passage used where unless your life looks like a certain way, then you are not a believer. What ends up happening is the good news is your performance - the gospel becomes, "Perform well, and you can have assurance." That is not gospel. You have to remember gospel has nothing to do with you. The only thing you contribute to the gospel is your sin, which makes it necessary. So, as you hear any kind of instructions that you are to perform in any such a way to either save or maintain yourself, that is not good news. That's what we call Law. That does not mean we disregard it - we do uphold the Law, and it's necessary for believers.  
  
If you are a follower of Jesus Christ, it's very obvious that you are to pursue holiness, love God and your neighbor. Let's not get confused here, but that is not the gospel. The gospel is always, in Scripture, what Christ has done for you, and the only thing you are to do with that information is to trust it.  
  
That's it. The moment there is an action coming to you, whether it is love of neighbor, whether it's having to do with morality, or any of the instructions in the New Testament, this is where I think the most important Law-gospel distinction has to happen, next to the gospels with Jesus, is in the Epistles. Anytime there is an imperative or instruction that is related to your righteousness, that is not gospel, that is Law. Anytime Paul talks about Christ, our righteousness, our union with Christ, Christ being imputed to us, our eternal hope of Christ, that's all gospel. If someone connects your obedience, your sincerity, your emotions, your feelings, what you do or don't do, and they connect that to the gospel, that's mixing Law and gospel, and that's what ends up removing our assurance.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: We do see a lot of imperative commands throughout the New Testament; particularly one that is very popular is to flee from sexual immorality. All of us would say that is a wise and good command to flee from sexual immorality, but one of the things that we can do is we collapse the Law and the gospel, and we begin to say something nonsensical like, "Your final salvation depends on how well you can flee from sexual immorality in this life." I think a phrase like that is certainly an overcorrection to what we are saying that certainly, we all would say we need to flee from sexual morality. We need to flee from drunkenness. We need to flee from whatever it is - insert your favorite command here.  
  
What we are saying is that in light of all these things, what a proper Law and gospel distinction does is the Law gives us the things that we should do, but what the gospel does is it provides us a safety net; it provides the wind in our sails by which we do these things. Ultimately, as we strive and we struggle in this life, and we fail, we look to Christ and his finished work on our behalf. What else puts wind in our sails and breath in our lungs than the safety net of Christ who lifts us from our sin, forgives it and sets us on our feet? Because merely barking at somebody like, "Hey, you're going to die if you don't do this," we lay burdens on people that are almost unbearable.  
  
Justin Perdue: Whenever you talk about burdens that are unbearable, I immediately go back to Matthew 11\. I know this was mentioned a minute ago, but when Jesus says that His yoke is easy and his burden is light, he's referring to the Law. Those are images of the Law - the yoke and the burden, and he's telling his people to come to him if they're weary. "I've done these things in your place and trust me, and I'll give you rest."  
  
I know we're talking about implications of these things and some of the fallout of the confusion of Law and gospel, but just a couple of illustrations briefly about how this is often done: you hear a lot of language in the church these days about the church needing to live the gospel or the church needing to do the gospel. This is like exhibit A of the problem. When we're telling people that they need to do the gospel or live the gospel, we clearly have misunderstood the fact that there is one person who did the gospel and lived it and his name is Christ; we are called to trust in him and then live in light of what he has done.  
  
Or you'll hear the language of demands of the gospel, what the gospel demands of us now. I could talk about this for a long time, but I'm not going to do that. If there is a demand of the gospel, it's one demand, and that's belief; trust Christ. The other things that fall under the gospel by way of imperatives are not gospel. They are implications of the gospel. They are outworking of the gospel. They are Law - and Law is not a bad term. I think we've got to get past that. That whole framework, where the gospel is good, and the Law is bad, is not true. They are always good, and it is wonderful when it's used lawfully.  
  
The problem is the Law is often not used lawfully. We wielded around this tool. You're trying to keep it in order to know that you're good with God, and I think everybody understands that that is a damning reality. So, when you start to talk about living and doing the gospel or the demands of the gospel, people immediately start to assess their lives, and they realize, "I'm not doing enough. How could I ever know that I am appropriately meeting the demands of the gospel or that I am living the gospel sincerely enough?" And if I'm not, the implication is I should be concerned, and I am going to be one of those people that Christ looks at and says, "Depart from me. I never knew you."  
  
So, we have people in the church who are sincere, and I'm using that word on purpose, in meaning to trust Christ and follow him. They have no hope and no confidence that they will certainly be with Christ forever. How could I ever know that when you're constantly asking me to stack myself up against these demands of living the gospel?  
  
Jon Moffitt: Their gospel has splinters of Law, and those splinters keep them out. We have argued so far that in Scripture, we see that there is the definition of the gospel and the definition of the Law, and they have to separate intentions. One is to save, one is to condemn; the Law never saves, the gospel always saves. The reason we say this is because that actually becomes an interpretive model or a hermeneutic, a way in which we understand Scripture to present itself. If you do not allow Scripture to present that present itself this way to you, you then will start getting theologies that we've kind of alluded to.  
  
I wanted to add to Justin's thought here on the demands of the gospel. You hear this in language like, "Unless you make Jesus Lord of your life, you cannot be saved." That is a demand that is given there. The word that's often used here is repent. Unless you repent, you cannot be saved. I would completely agree with you on that. If you don't repent, you can't be saved. Also, if you don't do a lot of things, you can't be saved. That's all still Law.  
  
There's no good news to repentance. That is a work. That is something you must do. I would say it is an implication of being under the gospel, the moment that Christ comes in and transforms your heart, and you believe the first response of a new believer is to repent.  
  
So, to say, "repent and believe", to say that together is not to contradict it. But people will point to passages and say, "Jon, see it says right there that Peter says, 'Repent and believe, and you shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.'" Well, it also says, "Repent and be baptized, and you will inherit the kingdom of heaven." Do we hold to baptism or regeneration? Do we believe that you have to be baptized in order to be a believer? So, we have to look at the entire context of Scripture. He is saying repent, a turning away not in a moral sense, but he is saying turn away from the Law. Turn away from your own self-righteousness and turn towards Christ; trust in Christ.  
  
Let's be clear about our repentance here - we are not turning it into the Law. Collapsing these, even when it may feel like Jesus says clearly that you have to forsake all and repent, and you start hearing demands in the gospel, then I would agree with Justin that the only demand that's ever there is to believe what you are hearing to be is good news. And even your belief, according to Ephesians 2, is a gift given to you. It's not something you can achieve. You can't even meet the requirements.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There's something I want to jump on what you said, Jon, where you talked about gospel implications. I think it's important to remember that the implications of the gospel are not the gospel. "Does the gospel have implications for my marriage, the way I parent, the way that I think about my life and work and ministry?" Absolutely. But those things are not the gospel themselves. The gospel is that Christ saves sinners.  
  
Last night my wife and I were having a conversation, and it was a little rugged, as we like to say. We do pause, and we ask the question, "How does the gospel help us get through this conversation?" We look to the forgiveness that we have in Christ, so we are able, with fervor and vigor and joy, to press through where we are not in alignment in our marriage at the moment. Us doing that are not the gospel itself, but rather we are looking to the finished work of Christ on our behalf in order to continue to press forward in our marriage.  
  
Once again, we can easily make the formula this: that it's Law-gospel-Law. That it's the Law that crushes you, the gospel that saves you, and now you're back into the realm of Law. What we're trying to say is that the gospel actually rescues us from the Law and its condemnation, and we always rely on the finished work of Christ on our behalf. We never move back into the realm of trying to earn our merit at all ever. Period.  
  
Justin Perdue: In thinking about this Law and gospel distinction, I want to illustrate this with a couple of passages where I think there is confusion demonstrated. In 1 Corinthians 6 and Galatians 5, Paul uses very clear language about certain kinds of sins. He talks about sexual immorality and envy and drunkenness and all these things to the Corinthian and Galatian Christians. He says, "People who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God." If we maintain appropriate distinctions between Law and gospel, we do not need to do all kinds of gymnastics with those passages to make any sense of them. We can preach them straightforwardly as they are stated. People, who do this stuff will not inherit the kingdom of God, which then immediately causes us to ask the question, "What's the solution? What's the answer?" Because all of us have done this stuff.  
  
In 1 Corinthians 6:11, Paul says, "All these things that I'm telling you, if you do them, you won't inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you, but you were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ by the Spirit of our God." That's a great exercise and illustration of the distinction between Law and gospel in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and in Galatians 5\. It's very interesting to note that it's in the section on works of the flesh and fruit of the Spirit, where Paul talks about the works of the flesh being obvious, and people who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God.  
  
I remember preaching this. I preached Galatians a couple of years ago in our church. I remember preaching that text and stating that we don't need to qualify this because typically, how do we hear that preached? We hear that preached as, "Well, what Paul was talking about here is a trajectory of your life. If your life is characterized by sexual immorality or drunkenness or slander or perversity, then you will not inherit the kingdom of God. But if the trajectory of your life is one of improvement, sanctification, and transformation, then you can have assurance that you will inherit heaven."  
  
One, that's clearly not what the text is saying, and two, this circles back around to the question of assurance. How could a person who is self-aware at all ever have any confidence and assurance that he or she will make it to heaven? Because if we're honest with ourselves, we are sexually immoral in all kinds of ways that we don't want to admit. We are envious in all kinds of ways that we don't want to talk about. We slander others, at least in our minds and hearts, if not with our mouths. We could go on and on and on. We are all grieved by the amount of sin that we see in our lives.  
  
How much transformation is enough? What kind of trajectory do I need to be looking for? Help explain that to me, pastor. You're telling me that this is what Paul is saying, and nobody can answer those questions because that's not what the text means. The text means if you do this at all, you're damned. And now you need a perfect righteousness that can only be found outside of you in the Lord Jesus Christ, who did the Law perfectly. So, look to Him and be saved, believe and receive.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I would even turn to Romans chapter 6 where Paul tells a believer, "But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you are committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness." What he means by that is that we had zero control. In other words, the more you sin, the more condemnation you brought upon yourself. Now being in Christ, 1 John says, when you sin - not if you sin - when you sin, repent, and you will be cleansed. He will be cleansed of all of your unrighteousness. To compare those two together, Paul is saying, "You are now set free, and you have repentance as the means by which you can be free from the condemnation of the sin." In 1 John, it does not tell you that you got a cap on this, that you can repent of the same sin three times, and then that's it. "You've been set free from it," is what Paul is saying. We often interpret that to mean, "Oh, that should mean I should never struggle with sin again." May I remind you that Romans 6 is right before Romans 7, and what does Romans 7 teach us? Oh dear. Paul repented of the same sin quite often, it seemed, according to his own words.  
  
So, we cannot turn those passages into Law, saying, "If you get tripped up in sin, we'll then you're not a believer." That is Law. That is not gospel. The gospel must always be, "I am saved by the righteousness of Christ through faith alone, by grace alone, period." Sola fide. If you add in performance, you are no longer set free. You are back underneath the condemnation that we've been set free in Romans 5 when it says, "Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I want to give an illustration. I think you guys are going to might roll your eyes at me.  
  
We don't want to preach Jesus like the stock market. What I mean by that is if you put $1,000 into the stock market, you know it can go up, it can go down, you can lose money, you can go into the red. Often the way we like to preach Jesus specifically, the way we like to preach sanctification is like the stock market in that Jesus has given you his forgiveness, his thousand dollars of forgiveness. Now it is up to you in your stock market wit to make that positive, or you can lose it and go into the negative. We think that a proper distinct distinction between Law and the gospel actually tells us that no, Jesus has given us an inheritance in heaven, saved for us, given to us freely by grace, through faith on account of Christ. This is what 1 Peter 1 talks about.  
  
As we struggle and fall and stumble in this life, we rest, not even in our failures. We rest, not even looking to our worst days of sin. We don't look to our worst days of sin, but we also don't look to our best days of obedience, but rather we always trust the meritorious work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. That's it. That is the simplicity and beauty of the Christian life. That we've said this how many times: how many times can a Christian sin and still be a Christian? In theory, ad infinitum. Forever. On and on. Because one, sin is more of more than just a collection of misdeeds - it's a power that reigns and rules in you. It's not like we're just writing things on a chalkboard.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You can't repent in your nature.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Absolutely. And that is why God gives us a new heart. Even when we repent, that is just evidence of God's gracious work in our hearts.  
  
It's important to remember that it's not like God has not given us $1,000 in stock, and now it's up to us to use our sanctification to make that either green or red. He has given us a final inheritance in Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the seal of that promise.  
  
Justin Perdue: One of the more damaging confusions of Law and gospel that's out there today - and it's a conversation that's going on in evangelical circles and even amongst Calvinists in particular - is this conversation around future justification. I don't need to lay this out in a ton of detail, but just to summarize it simply, the idea in a future justification view is that we are justified by faith in Christ alone, but we will finally be saved by faith and good works. To frame it another way, we have the right to eternal life, completely by faith in Christ, but we will acquire possession of eternal life by faith in Christ plus good works done in the Spirit.  
  
There are a few problems with that. It's a separation and a bifurcation of justification and final salvation in a way that the Scripture does not do and does not allow. Biblically speaking, to be justified in Christ is to be finally saved; to be in Christ Jesus and united to him by faith is the same. Your final salvation is certain, not because of anything that you will ever do or anything that God foresees you doing, but it is completely because of what Christ has done for you, received by faith, and you are safe.  
  
I'm going to say something strong and hyperbolic, and you can rebuke me; I shouldn't say hyperbolic because it's true, so you can rebuke me if you want to.  
  
In the Council of Trent, session six, canon 24, they talk about justification and good works. They state - paraphrased - that anybody who says that good works are simply the fruit and the evidence of justice obtained by faith and good works are not working to preserve and increase the justice received. Let that person be accursed.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Just to clarify really quickly, what is the Council of Trent? For someone who may not know what that is.  
  
Justin Perdue: The Council of Trent took place in the 1540s to the 1560s. It was an ecumenical council of what would be called the Church of Rome in response to the Protestant Reformation. They were defining their teaching in the official doctrine of the Church of Rome over and against what the Protestant Reformers were teaching and articulating.  
  
In session six, which took place around 1546-1547, they were dealing with the issue of justification - how a person is declared righteous before God, or how a person is right before the Lord. They were saying that the Protestant understanding of good works, that it was simply evidence and fruit of justification already obtained, is wrong, and that good works preserve and increase our justification.  
  
I don't know that many evangelicals would ever say that our good works increase our justification, but there are a ton of evangelicals, and there are a number of pastors who preach and teach in such a way. They teach that you are keeping your justification intact through your obedience and good works.  
  
That is absolutely damaging. It wrecks any possibility of assurance that we could ever have. Two, if we talk that way, we have departed from the Protestant faith, and we have become Roman Catholic, and so we need to be very careful in how we talk about good works in obedience and even how we are examining our lives. It can never be the ground of our confidence. Jimmy, like you, just said, the illustration of the stock market is right - you can't talk about it as if Jesus has done this for you but keep yourself in the black and you'll be good. That is not a Protestant, and we would argue a biblical understanding of salvation and justification.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I would love for us to discuss the Law and gospel specifically in how it rates to relates to our assurance in Christ. Maybe we can throw that ball over the fence into the members' realm. For those of you that have listened to my introductory interview into Theocast, assurance for me was something that I feel was robbed for so much of my life. To be honest, I still have these PTSD assurance moments where I just really struggle to believe in the good, gracious nature of God and Christ toward me. But having a proper Law and gospel distinction, if you struggle with assurance, is a balm to your soul. I think that's what we should talk about in the membership.  
  
Justin Perdue: Jimmy, you're not alone in that; I still struggle. I had mighty struggles with assurance in my younger years, and I still find that rearing its head with me where I wrestle with thoughts of my legitimacy. Will I really finally see Christ and be with him forever? Because we're aware of the sin in our lives, we're aware of God's righteous standard, and we have heard so many things about examining ourselves and assessing our hearts, minds, and our performance. I have a tender conscience when it comes to this stuff. It's that Martin Luther-like crisis of the soul - there is nothing that could ever be enough. I'm undone here before the Holy God of the universe; where are my hope and confidence?  
  
Let's talk about that in the members' area. So, friends, we are headed to the members' podcast. You might be listening, and you don't even know what the members' podcast is. It's an additional podcast that we offer to our membership every week. The members are those who have partnered with us financially to help support the work of Theocast. You can go to our website, Theocast.org, and learn more information not only about our ministry in general but in particular about our total access membership. We offer a 14-day free trial on that thing so you can kick the tires and get a feel for what the additional content is.  
  
The three of us are headed to the members' podcast now to talk about assurance and how that relates to the distinction between Law and gospel. We hope you've been encouraged by the conversation thus far, and we hope you're encouraged by the other things that we have to say. We'll see you there.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-law-gospel-distinction-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-law-gospel-distinction/)

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### Christ-Centered Preaching (Transcript)

*Published: May 6, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/christ-centered-preaching-transcript*
*Tags: Assurance, assurance of salvation, Gospel, how do I know I'm saved, Pietism, Reformed Theology, salvation*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/christ-centered-preaching/)**  
  
Jon Moffitt: Today on Theocast we are discussing Christ-centered preaching -what is it and what it is not - how you have to have an appropriate understanding of the entire Bible before you ever want to try and attempt to preach Christ from all of scripture, and how we can easily slip into preaching moralism while we're trying to preach Christ from the text.  
  
In our members' podcast, we have a fun conversation around how you can preach Christ and sound angry at the same time. We hope you enjoy the conversation.  
  
Justin Perdue: I just mentioned being exhausted. We're going to be talking about something today that can exhaust people in the church if not handled appropriately: we're going to be talking today about Christ-centered preaching. We get a lot of questions and a lot of comments here at Theocast about the gospel itself. We did a podcast a few weeks ago called preaching _About the Gospel_ where we made the observation that many preachers will get up at conferences (or even in their own pulpits) and be very fired up about preaching the gospel but then don't actually preach Christ and hold him out to people.  
  
Today we're doing something that's related but different. There's a lot of language not only about the gospel in the church today, but there's a lot of language, writing, and speaking done on Christ-centered preaching. We want to try to bring some clarity and light to this conversation and talk about what Christ-centered preaching is and is not. We hope this conversation is not only clarifying, but also encouraging; we hope it helps people diagnose and assess the preaching that they're sitting under, even in their podcast feeds or whatever it may be.  
  
I know it's our conviction that that many guys who will wax eloquent about Christ-centered preaching may not be doing it. I know guys in our camp, with Theocast being a confessional, reformed place where we aim to preach the Law and the gospel, sometimes the representation of us is a little bit reductionist in terms of how we go about trying to preach Jesus. We want to shed some clarity on that, too. We're going to talk about a number of things today. We're going to try to define some terms for people in hopes that this is encouraging and helpful to folks.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is hermeneutic when we talk about how, when you get up and preach a sermon, and you open your Bible, what are you trying to accomplish? What are you leading people to? The phrase "expository preaching" is often thrown around, and we have some very dominant voices in the world for the last 50 years who have defined expository preaching.  
  
The word _expository_ is just a fancy word for explained. That's what it means. It means to explain or exposit the text. There's a debate on what is explaining the text.  
  
When I was in seminary, I was taught to look at the immediate context. Let's say you're preaching 1 John 1:1-5\. That's what you're preaching, right? Five verses. You have to look at your immediate context, and then you look at the broader context of the book, and then you look at their broader context of the New Testament, and that's about as far as you would get. You really wouldn't go any farther than that.  
  
What we're saying is that the Bible in itself is an entire context. It's not just one book or one period of Christianity. When you grab _Lord of the Rings,_ and you read a particular book out of the saga, you understand that there's a whole world that functions there. When you understand the story, you have to understand everything that Tolkien is saying from beginning to end within this world he has created. The same goes when it comes to preaching the context of a text. When someone says they preach Christ-centered preaching, mentioning Christ, talking about Christ, or giving facts about Christ is not necessarily Christ-centered preaching.  
  
When we say we are preaching Christ, from a reformed perspective, the most important part that has changed this and brought clarity for me is when we talk about the context of a passage: it is the redemptive historic understanding of scripture. You have to back out and ask, "What is the context of the Bible? What is the Bible about?" If you can answer that question, you'll be able to understand and appropriately preach Christ-centered preaching.  
  
Maybe we should take a couple of seconds here and talk about redemptive historic understanding of the scripture. What do we mean by this? Redemption - meaning that the Bible is about the redemption of creation from the beginning of the fall to Revelation – means that God is not only redeeming sinners, but He was redeeming all things. It's the restoration of all things historic meaning that when we interpret scripture, we do it with a lens from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation; understanding that the purpose of the Bible is redemption and it unfolds through history. We follow it in a historic fashion.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Certainly, we want to be careful and very affirming of those who do try to seek to preach the Bible in its context. Don't just hear us say that that is a bad thing. It certainly is a good thing when you are reading through a rather difficult letter like 1 Corinthians (or even 2 Corinthians for that matter) to try to understand the original context in which it was written.  
  
But what we are saying is that while it is great to understand the cultural context, and that brings new meaning and new light – it's even great to understand linguistic contexts and that brings new meaning in new light as well - ultimately what we are pointing to is the great end of understanding how this particular passage, book, or topic within scripture fits within the greater drama of redemption.  
  
It's not that we're turning over every rock, and we're trying to find silly allusions to the gospel, but rather we are placing the book within the greater context of how the gospel has been unfolded throughout history.  
  
Justin Perdue: The way that I'll frame it in our church often, and I think our people are almost catechized with this at this point, I'll say the Bible is about God's plan of redemption accomplished through Christ, and we preach, and we understand every passage of scripture in light of that main point. One way this could be illustrated is imagine that you were reading a book about Vince Lombardi and the Green Bay Packers, to make a sports reference. We're reading about this great dynasty and all the championships they won and everything else - that's the main point of the book you're reading; it is about the Green Bay Packers dynasty. Maybe Vince Lombardi is a coach. Then within that book that you're reading there might be an anecdote about how a player was meticulous in putting on his uniform. What often happens is we take hold of that one anecdote and we make a big deal about the particularities of how this man put on his uniform. We divorce it completely from the context of what the whole thing is about, meaning that the dynasty of the Green Bay Packers and their legendary coach, Vince Lombardi. It's an illustration that I'm trying to make of what we do with scripture a lot of times: we zero in on an anecdote or a particular passage, a story that we see in scripture, and we divorce it completely from the context.  
  
It's just like how you would look at that person who read that book about the Green Bay Packers dynasty and then was geeked up about how a guy put his pants on. You're thinking, "Did you not understand what the book was about?" We would never do that. Or a book about World War II where there's an illustration about a soldier putting his uniform on. The book is about World War II, and we need to understand that everything that we're going to talk about with respect to this book needs to be understood in light of World War II. That's all we're saying about the Bible. Whenever we go to a passage, we want to understand that passage in light of the main point of scripture, which is God's plan of redemption accomplished through Christ.  
  
One thing that Jimmy alluded to is we're not trying to make silly connections. We're not trying to read Jesus into every verse of Scripture; I think sometimes that's what people misunderstand us to mean. When we talk about Christ-centered preaching, it's like we're trying to find Jesus on every page. Like the Bible is some sort of Where's Waldo book - that's not at all what we mean. Let me just frame it this way: the way that I approach sermon preparation every week is I'm asking a question that I think every preacher should ask, and that ought to be the main question. The question that I'm not asking first of all is, "Where is Jesus in this text?" I'm not asking that question. That's the wrong way to approach it, in my opinion. The right question is, "Where does this text stand in relation to Christ?" When we go to the texts, where does this text stand in relation to Christ? That is the first and most important question that I ask every week when I get ready to prepare a sermon. That is what we mean by preaching from a redemptive-historical perspective with Christ as the center and Christ as the focus.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When you think about the purpose of the Bible, is the purpose of the Bible to get the world to act better? Is the purpose of the Bible to create morality within humanity around the world? Then a redemptive-historical understanding of scripture would be a wrong perspective to have.  
  
But if you understand that in Genesis, God sets up the entire story – Genesis 1, God creates the world; Genesis 3, the world crashes. From that moment on, even from John 1, we learned Jesus is in creation; He's the one who created, so it starts with Jesus in creation. Jesus has then promised to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, and from that moment on, how will God's promise to restore creation to Adam and Eve's original garden happen? Everything from that moment forward is God proving that when He made this promise, He can fulfill it. No matter how many times Israel's covenant with God fails and how many times people try and stop, the promise even got all the way down to one person at one point. The promise seed got down to one human being. If that one human being died and did not procreate, that would have been it. God would have been a liar. And so, you have this story that is unbelievable - highs and lows, beauty, and just horrific, disgusting things that humanity does, and yet every single one of those stories is the fulfillment.  
  
This is why we would say at a Theocast that we are all confessional. Because we're confessional, we understand that scripture is redemptive historic, and it is a story of the fulfillment of a covenant. The covenant of grace fulfilled as covenant of works in the garden with Adam and Eve. They failed the covenant of works, but God gives us a covenant of grace, promising that He will save us. Jesus comes and fulfills the original covenant of works with Adam. Every sermon is not disconnected from that. The moment you emphasize something other than Christ and the work of Christ, you are actually emphasizing a subset story. Because if the Bible began in Genesis with Jesus, and you know what the book of Revelation is all about - Jesus coming back to restore all things - beginning to end, and the filler in between is this epic proving to us that God is faithful. When you hear a sermon and that sermon is somehow emphasizing a soldier's uniform - which is a great illustration - you should walk away a little disappointed. I'm not sure why we're talking about that when the hero of the story is Jesus.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Justin, I'm going to play devil's advocate at something that you said. The question that you asked before you prepare any sermon is, "Where does this text stand in relation to Christ?" I can hear people as they are processing that, and as the gears turn, there can be this idea that the text is undermined immediately; that as you look at the texts, you have this presupposition approach of question. "I'm just going to find where this text relates to Christ even if the text doesn't mention Jesus. I'm going to work as hard as I can to get there."  
  
I've talked about this before, but I'm preaching through 1 Corinthians. When you are in the middle of 1 Corinthians, it's a difficult journey, to say the least: you are talking about church discipline, you are talking about sexual immorality, and you're talking about lawsuits between believers. As you approach these really practical Christian living topics, let's just say the Epistles, how do you take a passage like 1 Corinthians 5-7 - where within that frame Paul talks about not suing believers and settling matters with one another in love - how do you take a passage like that and still preach it in relation to Christ?  
  
Justin Perdue: When I said what I did about where the text stands in relation to Christ, I want to further clarify what I mean. I am not, just to reiterate, trying to find Christ in every single passage, but I understand everything that is written in holy scripture in light of Christ and his work and his sufficiency and what he has done in the place of his people.  
  
It's like that's the North Star; that's what's orienting the compass; that's what's giving me my bearings as I look at scripture. Underneath the sufficiency of Christ in his redemptive work for us and the fact that he has accomplished our salvation, there are many things that we can talk about. I don't know how to answer your question, Jimmy, without going into something that we talk about pretty regularly here on Theocast, which is the uses of the Law.  
  
I'm going to anticipate another objection that may be raised. People will say that if you go about Christ-centered preaching the way we are talking about it, the way that we are encouraging people to do, then what you're going to end up doing is preaching basically the same sermon every Sunday. You're basically going to end up being a broken record saying something like, "Here is what God requires. None of us have done it adequately. Certainly, we've not done it perfectly. We all stand condemned but take heart because Christ has done it for you and trust him." To say that this is the only thing that we would ever preach is very reductionist, and I think it's an unfair caricature of the kind of preaching that the three of us aim to do in our own respective pulpits. We also will uphold the three uses of the Law, not just the first use - the first use being to show us our sin and drive us to Christ. We do preach that every Sunday, we make it clear even to the redeemed. We remind ourselves over and over again that all of us have failed to meet God's Law and are therefore in desperate need of Christ.  
  
We can also talk about what God prescribed in his word in terms of a way of living. Jimmy, like your question specifically about 1 Corinthians 5-7, or there could be any number of other passages that we could refer to, there are all kinds of imperatives and exhortations that we do preach to people underneath Christ and the gospel and the banner of all that. We say, "Now here's how we live." Because there's the second and third use of the Law, where doing these things is going to be good for your life, avoiding these things is also going to be good for your life, and we strive in Christ Jesus to conform our lives to the word of God because it's good for us, it's good for our neighbor, and it honors the Lord. We can say all of those things.  
  
The difference for us, and many people that will want to preach imperatives as well, is we strive to not preach those imperatives in a threatening way to the saints. In Christ, they're no longer condemnatory or threatening.  
  
I could happily preach about not suing each other and talk, at a commonsense level, about why that's not good. We can do that underneath the banner of Christ and the gospel. But the whole tone and tenor of the sermon, I would contend, is very different if you're preaching in light of Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To answer Jimmy's question and to maybe connect everything that Justin just said about the Law-gospel as well: if the Bible is a story of redemption and it unfolds through history, what is God redeeming people from? Well, it's an offense against the Law.  
  
Their original Law given to Adam was to not eat of the tree. That's the original one. Then Adam falls, and in order for men to see who they are because now it's part of their nature, Adam and Eve were the only ones who went from pure nature to sinful nature and experienced both.  
  
We are now born. And so, the new law, the Mosaic Law, was given so that we could see our needs. So, all of scripture is the unfolding of the Law. You see your need, and then the good news of the gospel; the gospel is "can't be done. Christ did it for you, believe." That's the gospel. When you read scripture, you have to hold those two far apart because if you don't, you start mixing the story and the purpose of the story.  
  
To go to your question about 1 Corinthians and suing each other, Paul begins with the gospel - their foundation and their security in Christ is always based upon faith. This is why he even says, "I don't want to preach nothing among you except for Christ and him crucified." That's the foundation of their faith. Yet we also understand that the human body is still underneath the curse; the Spirit lives within us, but the body is still broken. Paul is helping believers who have broken bodies to learn how to function underneath the Spirit. He is saying, "Listen, you have to live in grace and mercy. Unfortunately, you guys are messing this up." So, if you preach that section of first Corinthians, which is don't Sue each other, and you don't end that series with hope of grace and gospel, you actually only give people Law and no hope. I just don't see how, if you are a preacher of the Bible if you only preach one section of it, disconnected from the rest. If Christ is the point and Christ is the conclusion, and he's the beginning, and the end and nothing else matters except for your eternity with God, yet provide instructions disconnected from hope in Christ, then I think you're not actually preaching. You've gone from preaching to explaining some historic texts to somebody. There's a difference between explaining historic text and preaching.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: As we think about preaching Christ and preaching Christ from all of scripture, what's important to remember is that it's not that necessarily that the content looks different, but I think one of the things that are very different when you are truly preaching Christ is the tone and tenor of the pulpit.  
  
Just to use the example that we've been playing with for the past couple of moments, there is a difference between saying, "Real Christians don't sue one another, so get your act together and cut it out." Certainly, that is true on some level. Don't sue your fellow believer. As we see laid out in 1 Corinthians, there's a difference between saying that and then saying this, "We have been given everything in our good Lord and shepherd King Jesus. As we think about living life together, there are certainly going to be times of conflict and hardship and difficulty with one another, but we have been given everything in the gospel, the forgiveness of sins, life everlasting. As we approach one another as fellow pilgrims living this life, let us keep that in mind." There's just such a difference in tone as we think about preaching Christ that it's not necessarily that we shirk the imperatives of what we see, particularly in the epistles in the New Testament, but rather when we see these things, we understand them within its greater context. We understand it within its greater place.  
  
Michael Horton has given a wonderful illustration that if you think of the Christian life, the Law is like a boat with a giant sail. If you get in that boat, you know how it works, and you know what it does: it keeps you afloat.  
  
Here's the thing: with no wind, that boat is not going anywhere. He talks about how the gospel is like the wind in our sails, and that the gospel moves the boat. That's a wonderful illustration. I've even shared that with our church in preaching on conflict management within our church and 1 Corinthians 7.  
  
I think that's just so important to keep in mind that when we preach Christ, the content may look the same as when people are just simply explaining the text, as John has talked about, but the major difference is the tone and the tenor of the pulpit.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even in preaching a passage like 1 Corinthians 6, you're preaching it in light of 1 Corinthians 1-2, where it all begins with Christ and him crucified, the message of the cross, and all these things. Even where he says in 1 Corinthians 1:30, that Christ has become to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, it's quite clear that Christ is sufficient, in what he has done for the Corinthian Christians and for all of us, thereby. Even in 1 Corinthians 6, immediately after talking about the lawsuit piece, Paul talks about how when you sue your brothers and sisters in the church, you are essentially defrauding one another. Then he goes on immediately to say, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?" And he talks about all these various kinds of sins, and it such were you, but you've been washed, and you've been sanctified; you've been cleansed; Christ Jesus has redeemed you. He continually goes back to the gospel and what Christ has done, and even in exposing people's sin, he goes back to the gospel and drives people constantly outside of themselves to Christ, reminding them of their need for him.  
  
So, I do agree with your statement, Jimmy, that a lot of times, the content will look similar, but the tone and tenor are completely different. I do think, at times, we all agree that the content will be presented differently, too. I know consciously for us; we're preaching 1 Corinthians 6 through the lens of 1 Corinthians 1-2\. We're preaching it through the lens of that whole redemptive-historical framework of the Bible.  
  
We're always going to be holding Christ out and extolling the mercy and power and grace of Christ to people even as we say, "Hey guys, here's how the redeemed live with one another. We don't sue each other. It doesn't do good things for us. It's bad for our neighbor. It makes the faith look ridiculous, and we look just like the world." Whatever it may be. We can say those things.  
  
Then there is a tone and a tenor, and I'll even use the word tincture - it's an old word where everything that we preach and say are tinted and flavored with the grace and mercy of God in Christ.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There's a member of my church, and I'm stealing this from him, and I think he says it really well when he said that if you were to summarize the Bible in one verse, he says it's Psalm 3:8, "Salvation belongs to the Lord." Full stop.  
  
That is kind of the lens through which we at Christ Community Church preach - that salvation belongs to the Lord. Even when we preach these imperatives, they in no way change the indicatives of what God has done for us in Jesus. What I mean by that is even when we preach things - ways to live and, dare I even say, ways to behave properly as a Christian - they are done with the greater context of salvation belonging to the Lord, that these in no way merit any sort of favor, these in no way merit any sort of righteousness before God because all of that has been given to you in Christ and Christ alone.  
  
In light of that, in light of the wind and those sails, let us love and serve one another. Let us pursue one another with grace. Let us live a life towards holiness not because it gives us anything in terms of merit and righteousness or standing, but rather because those things have been freely given to us in the gospel. What God has demanded of us in the Law, He's given us freely in Christ. Therefore, in light of this, this is how we go on living the pilgrim Christian life.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you look at scripture and say redemptive historic, the majority of the Bible is narrative and not instruction. You have a story of what God is doing and how men cannot live up to the expectation or the commands of God. I would say it would be fair to say that 5% of the Bible is instruction that applies to the believer. You have the Law that's reinstituted in the third use of the Law in the New Testament, not the ceremonial Law, but the moral Law. Then you have the Epistles; if you read Ephesians, you don't get to the instructions until chapter four; the same thing is true with Colossians and 1 Corinthians. What begins is either gospel or narrative. So, you have a very small section of scripture that is instruction, yet when it comes down to Christ-centered preaching, it seems like we preach instruction. That's what we preach when the Bible if you're just going to take it at face value based upon the weight of what is it is used there, is a story to prove to you that you should not trust yourself and that God is 100% trustworthy even though you may not fully understand.  
  
I wrote an article recently called, "Where is God in COVID-19?" and in there, I say that there's no way to solve the problem of evil, and we don't know why God chooses to save someone. We don't know all those things, but the one thing we do know is that He is good. He has proven that He is good, and He has never fallen on his promise. That is the point of the Bible.  
  
Justin Perdue: One thing that's helpful in this conversation is understanding that the Bible is full of what we would call - theologically speaking - typology, where there are things that occur earlier on in the story of redemption that are shadows and pointers to things that are coming later. We see a number of things transpire throughout redemptive history that is pointing us and driving us toward the Christ, the Messiah who is to come, who is going to accomplish all of the things that these shadows and pointers have been indicating. One way that we could even talk about this is biblical theology. Then even thinking about types and anti-types.  
  
So, the type and then the one that's coming, that's ultimate. Think about one of the most famous stories in the scripture, and it's David and Goliath. Right? There's no imperative given in that entire story.  
  
The irony is we read the story of David and Goliath, and the way that it's often presented is here are the ways that you can do this or that and slay the giants in your life and all of that. The story is this: we have this great enemy of God's people, this giant, this conqueror, the head of the armies of the enemies of God. Then we have this young shepherd boy who goes out to the front lines. He's only there because he's bringing his older brothers some food. Nobody will go and fight the giant, the champion of the enemy, so the young boy goes, "This guy is defiling the armies of the living God. I'll go fight him." Then we have this insane account where God's plan of redemption is hanging in the balance of a young shepherd boy with some rocks.  
  
The rock is thrown, and it hits the giant guy in the head, then the shepherd boy goes and cuts the head off of the champion of the enemy of God's people. And we say, "Praise God. His plan endures, and redemption can happen." But we look at that account, and we say, "Hey guys, here are some things that we can do. Here is some stuff that we can go about doing and slaying giants in our lives," rather than saying, "There's one coming greater than David who will sit on the throne of David forever, who is going to cut the head off of the serpent named Satan, and he's going to be our Champion and our Redeemer and our Savior forever. "That's the point of that text. David's life is there because Christ is coming, and Christ is the greater David.  
  
Rather than us looking at it and saying, "If we have faith like David, and if we go out there with our slings, and if we do this and that, and we'll slay the giants in our lives, the giants of anxiety and fear, and we'll have a purpose." It's crazy.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: "Dare to be a David," or "Dare to be a Daniel".  
  
I'm going to say something, and I'll see what you guys think. I think that it takes a lot more work to moralize scripture than to preach Christ from Scripture. That's my bold claim of the day. It takes so much more work and energy to throw morals where they don't exist onto the framework of a redemptive-historical understanding of the Bible than it takes to actually preach Christ from the text. Case in point, look at the Psalms; the Psalms in so many regards are these difficult, hard words that, as Chad bird likes to say, hurled at the heavens, thrown at God, saying, "Where are you? What are you doing?" It is so easy for us to look at the Psalms and moralize them and say, "Here's what we know we should be, and here's what we should do." When in so many regards, particularly the Psalms of lament, we just look at the Psalms of lament, and we say it's okay for us to lament. God's people have lamented throughout history.  
  
Even as we think about different things within the gospels, we will look at the miracles of Jesus or the works of Christ within the gospels, and we try to moralize those when he's right there. He's right there. All you have to do is just turn the light on and let people see how glorious Jesus is. You don't have to do much. You don't even have to do much. He's shining, but instead, you want to find your place in somewhere else. You want to find your place, in some moral within the greater narrative, which to me, is just so difficult. I think it just takes a lot more work, but that's just me.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think that's a great observation. I couldn't agree with you more. I have been both preachers: I've been a moral preacher, and I've been a legal preacher, and now I preach Christ. Trying to come up with clever outlines that give people instructions was very hard, and it was hard not to sound like you are preaching the same thing every single week. Topical ends up becoming easier because you can just pick whatever topic you want to cover. If you're preaching a text and you're trying to come up with instructions from the text in each one, it's very hard. But if you are just going to lead people to rest in Christ and you're going to explain the text in its context, to me, it is the best kind of preaching. It is wonderful because all you're doing is just revealing the glory of God in Christ to people each and every week. When it comes down to providing morals, and it's not in the text, it is hard. It is complex.  
  
I will tell you what is hard for me - and thankfully my church has transitioned mostly out of this - what's hard for me is that when I do preach this way, I get attacked because people say, "But Jon, you're not giving me anything to do." Then I get accused of being antinomian and not expository preaching. "Jon, you're not expository preaching," because, in their mind, expository preaching is, "Read the texts. Now give me something to do."  
  
Justin Perdue: To respond to the idea of is it more work to preach morals to moralize the Bible, I think my answer would be yes and no. On the one hand, it is harder where homiletically, wherein homiletically meaning how we actually go to preach and prepare a sermon. I do think it's more work to moralize stuff and then fit it into a nice outline and make it hang and make it clever. I think to moralize the Bible, though, is as natural as breathing for us. I think it's also what we are taught in many church contexts. We tend to go to scripture and immediately turn it into, "This is clearly about me and what I need to be doing," rather than realizing that the whole point of scripture is about Christ and what he has done for me, and now I live in light of that.  
  
Jon, to pick up on what you were talking about on the way that we're charged with not being expository preachers because we're not giving people imperatives - that's a really old song. I think that's the song regularly hurled and lobbed against us, usually accusing us that there's no moral impetus in our preaching, that we're not giving people any kind of moral imperative ever. My response to that initially is why don't you come to some services and listen to me, or Jon, or Jimmy? Why don't you get on our sermon audio podcast feeds? I think you'll understand pretty quickly that none of us are antinomian. We're talking plenty about how we live together in the church.  
  
I'm not going to say it all again, but I go back to the fact that we use the Law lawfully. 1 Timothy 1:8, we uphold the Law when it's used lawfully, and we drive people to Christ. Our, most important takeaway every Sunday from any sermon that we ever preach should be to trust Christ. If it's not, we're wrong. We'll start there and then after that, sure, there can be a number of other things. I want to adjust how I'm doing that there because I want to love my neighbor better, or whatever it may be. We're all saying that stuff. So, to act as though there is no moral imperative ever given when you preach in a Christ-centered fashion as we're describing is just flat out not true.  
  
I want Jimmy to tee this up for us about what people understand expository preaching to be, and then why they would even make such an accusation. Like you just mentioned, Jon, "You're not preaching in an expository fashion because you're not telling me a bunch of stuff to do. Even your tone is confusing to me."  
  
Jimmy Buehler: One of the things that I have noticed, and I see frequently is that there is this strange desire that you want to be yelled at when you hear a sermon. That there is this equating of feeling good and feeling spiritually filled if you also feel beat up at the end of a sermon. That if the preacher has like injudiciously yelled at you for 40 minutes and you feel all sorts of beat up and all sorts of bad for how you're living, and you equate that to spirituality.  
  
We take a couple of swings at this, but we really tee this up for the members. Maybe we should talk about some like angry preaching.  
  
I have been guilty. I'm grateful for the first church I ever served in - they were beyond gracious, but I remember it was like hurling insults at God's people. And I lament at the way that I did that, and the desire behind it is to wake up nominal Christians. I have some thoughts on that, but maybe you guys take some parting shots, and we hurl it over to the members' podcast.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'll give a parting shot really quickly.  
  
Jon, you said something earlier in the podcast, and I don't know that I ever commented on it. You mentioned what the goal of preaching is? And we were talking to each other before we hit record about this. What do we understand the goal of preaching to be? My short answer to that question and I take my inspiration somewhat from John Calvin in his commentary on 1 John 5:13 where he basically says, paraphrased, that it's the duty of any godly minister to extol as much as possible the grace and power of Christ so that we being satisfied in that might not look anywhere else.  
  
In those terms, every time I get in the pulpit that, to use the language of Paul in 1 Corinthians 2, I seek to know nothing among you other than Christ and him crucified. I want to herald and extol the mercy, the power, the grace, and the sufficiency of Christ. And the prayer, of course, is that everybody who's hearing the sound of my voice would trust in Christ alone.  
  
Other people may frame it in their own words, but I think that if we're going to talk about Christ-centered preaching, that's the heart behind it. That's the motivation, and that's the goal - that everybody would trust and rest in Christ and know the peace that is ours in him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The goal really, if you're a reformed confessional, is that preaching is a means of grace. We understand that, as we hear God's word given to us, it should increase our faith. The goal of preaching is to help people rest in Christ. If you were to ask me what the goal of preaching was before I got into seminary, basically, I was a puritanical preacher, so the goal was to whip people into shape by getting them to stop being lackadaisical and getting them to start reading the Bible and praying. That was the goal of preaching.  
  
We'll talk more about angry preaching and what is the purpose of preaching in the members' podcast.  
  
Thank you for listening. We hope this is encouraging to you. If it has been encouraging, please reach out, let us know, and leave us a voicemail. You can find the number on our website, and we would be happy to hear from you and also to answer your questions coming down the line. We probably have already announced it by now, but we have a new podcast coming your way called Ask Theocast. It's just another way for us to help answer quick questions that we get from you. They are about two to three minutes long, and if you don't know what a membership is, it's our way of helping fund what we do. It's how we print books, produce educational classes, and it's how we fund this podcast so more people can hear about the message of resting in Christ. You can learn more about that at our website, but those of you who are members, buckle up. I'm telling you right now, Jimmy is about to unleash, so it's good to have you come join us over the members' podcast.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-christ-centered-preaching-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-christ-centered-preaching/)

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### MEMBERS: Christ-Centered Preaching (Transcript)

*Published: May 6, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-christ-centered-preaching-transcript*
*Tags: Christ Centered Preaching, Christ-Centered, Expository Preaching, preaching, reformed preaching, Reformed Theology*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-christ-centered-preaching/)  
  
Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members' podcast. It is good to be here. I'm letting you know right now that this is our second entrance into the members' podcast. It's going to be that good. I love the members' podcast. We're all sitting around with friends, grabbing a cup of coffee, and about to have a very lively conversation. We have what we call porch time - the three of us will get together a couple of times a year and get out on the porch. Let me tell you, the birds and the armadillos - they hear some fun conversations that we have. That's going to be one of them. The squirrels are going to be hopping up on this one and going, "What happened? Why are they yelling? What is the deal?"  
  
Justin Perdue: Jon's talking squirrels. Jimmy, save us.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: He's talking about armadillos.  
  
Hopefully, you listened to the previous podcast. In the non-members' portion, we started to talk about angry preaching. Something that is so popular is this whole idea of preaching in such a tone that it's like we shame people into obedience and into action in the Christian life; we take the words of Christ, and we use them as weapons against Christ's own people.  
  
To me, it just doesn't make sense (well, it does make sense since I know why people do it), but a lot of it is to be a shock jock, a crying out in the wilderness - you equate yourself with John the Baptist.  
  
I see it all the time where people justify it, and they say, "Paul and John the Baptist use harsh language." When did Paul use harsh language? Paul used harsh language when people were denying Christ outright when people who are claiming the badge of Christians were messing with the doctrine of the gospel. Paul did not come in calling people using Galatians type language when people were struggling with sin. He does say some firm things, and he does say some things that we need to hear when we are struggling with sin, but it's framed within the greater context of the goodness of Jesus.  
  
It's like we neglect the words of Jesus when he says, "Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." We take that, and we say, "That's really good. But I need to place a really difficult yoke on people, so I make sure that they know that they are in Christ." It just doesn't make sense. It's nonsense. Why would you do that? How can you take the grace of God in Christ and be angry about it? I just don't get it. Help me understand.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I can remember in my old, independent fundamental Baptist days, and even into my early Calvinistic days, when people would walk out of a sermon and say they needed to hear that, that they needed to be beat up today. It's almost like they need to be whipped into shape because they've been lazy Christians that week.  
  
Justin Perdue: "My life has just been so easy, and my week is going so swell that I need to get beat up on Sunday," said no one ever in my church context. Usually, everybody walks in the door exhausted, and then we're just going to pound people. I don't know to think that makes a lot of sense. It's almost sadistic how we think and how we talk at points.  
  
I already have three big thoughts down in my whiteboard, but I'm not going to try to cover all of them right now. One thought is I see the angry preaching and saying the "hard thing": I think in the minds of many preachers and in the minds of many of the congregants listening to these preachers, yelling at people and saying the "hard thing" is this badge of honor that we wear; that we are the real serious preachers and the real serious Christians; we are like Paul who is unashamed of the gospel and unashamed of Scripture, and we're going to get up there and just drop hammers in every place; we don't care how you feel about all these and about what I'm saying - if you're upset, then that's on you; I'm just God's man giving you God's word, and you need to deal with it. That's the posture of many guys. You hear people talk like this, and that's a little bit crazy. I'll talk more in a minute about some fundamental misunderstandings that I think underlie some of this.  
  
Just to give a little anecdotal piece on the burdens thing that you brought up, Jimmy, Jesus in Matthew 11, says, "Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy-laden. My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." It's almost like we think that's where people start. We preach the gospel that way, and we offer Christ to people, but then once you're in, that burden needs to get really heavy now so that you'll grow. It's crazy.  
  
There have even been people in my church (they're no longer a part of it) who would talk this way: "We need to put a lot of burdens on people so that they'll grow in the faith. People only grow when they've got to bear some weight. So we need to put it on them." You realize that that idea is not distinctly Christian at all; there are coaches all over the country who are coaching athletic teams that think that way; that's used all the time in the military. Even thinking about suffering: suffering producing character and endurance is true, but it's not distinctly Christian.  
  
That's why, immediately in Romans 5, Paul goes to the hope that we have in Christ. I think that's a misunderstanding out there that you need to make it hard for people so that they'll really grow in the faith - I like to call that a green beret approach to Christianity. It's not Jesus because you got bruised reeds being broken all over the place and smoldering wicks being put out all over the place. Yet we think that that's what we really need to be doing.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I do think there is a time for the pastor to become angry. And when I say angry, I mean in a righteous sense. I think those couple times would be when you are personally dealing with somebody who is just obstinate in sin and trying to bring destruction to the sheep, somebody who is in the midst of spreading the gangrene of either gossip or slander or trying to destroy the body, and there is a right place to approach that person in a firmness in Christ to call them forth to repentance. But again, that is a rifle approach, not a shotgun approach.  
  
Second, I think the time to become "righteously angry" is when doctrinal heresy is beginning to find its way into your body; that people are trusting in their own works, and people are trusting in other things other than Christ.  
  
We take our cue from Paul, where Paul does line up and say, "What are you doing? Why are you forgetting all of this grace that is found in Jesus and trying to find it within your value and purpose in life, and meaning within your own efforts? That's just nonsense. Why would you do that? And so there is a place for "angry preaching," but those things are reserved for very specific parts in the arsenal. I think a lot of times, to use military or ammunitions language, it's like people see a squirrel, and they pull out a bazooka, and they're like, "We need to blow that thing out of the water." Brother, you need some care. What are you doing?  
  
This angry preaching and yelling at people from the pulpit - it does not accomplish what you think it accomplishes. In fact, the only thing that it accomplishes is, to be quite honest and to be quite harsh, that the pastor feels really good about himself. Get off your high horse, son. I hope you yelled at yourself in the mirror all week. Two, it just produces really sick people who feel awful about themselves, or it produces really self-righteous people. Angry preaching does not accomplish that which you think it is accomplishing. I'm sorry.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's almost like you're holding your child, and you're screaming at him, saying, "I love you. Don't you understand that? You dumb kid. Can't you figure that out? Don't you get it?"  
  
Justin Perdue: It takes a unique perspective and a special kind of misunderstanding to make sermons on love sound angry and to make sermons on hope sound absolutely hopeless, yet that often happens in the church. It does go back to, to some extent, making the preacher feel really good when he can get up there and yell and say the hard thing. It's a badge of honor. I think you're exactly right in your comments about when we're firm and when we need to be harsh - when we see very high-handed, proud unrepentant sin that's causing harm in the body, when we see the gospel being compromised - I think that we absolutely can't go there.  
  
One thing that I've observed is that underneath all of this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the gospel (and even the Christian life) when we think that we've got to yell at people and scold them to holiness, we have been short-selling not only the sufficiency of Christ but the reality of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit – that is, the fact that God says that He will sanctify His people and that the Spirit of God is at work to do that sanctifying transformation in the lives of Christians. It's clear that underneath the yelling is this fundamental misunderstanding, where if people are not scolded and helped to understand that there's skin in the game and that heaven and hell hang in the balance, then nobody's going to take obedience seriously - and that's wrong.  
  
If people are redeemed, and they are indwelt by the Spirit of God and are in Christ Jesus, they will be sanctified. We can mark it down, and God will do it, and we need to continue to encourage them and how they're to live. But more than anything else, we extol the power and the sufficiency and the mercy of Jesus, and we watch people's lives change.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Angry preaching allows no room for people to be weak and struggle. It allows no room for people to realistically struggle with sin because they're going to be so afraid. The pastor becomes the drill sergeant, and every time they walk in the room, it's like, "Stand up straight."  
  
Here's the thing. When you preach in that way, and then it comes out that somebody's struggling with sin, most likely they are going to tailspin into more sin, and they're going to try to hide it, then they're going to sin more, and they're going to try to hide it more, and so on and so forth. Because they're so afraid that the pastor or the culture of the church is going to find them out who they really are. So they just turn in on themselves. Again, angry preaching does not accomplish what you think it does. It doesn't. I'm sorry.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It really has its roots in revivalism where you're trying to revive the dead orthodoxy of the church, so you have to up the volume. If you're going to bring something back to life, you can't do it through deadness. Guys like Charles Finney were famous for being fiery; they were loud, and they were fiery. They would stand on pulpits. This is from Charles Finney's own hit; he actually wrote a systematic theology, believe it or not. He was a lawyer, and this is what he writes, and it makes sense in his preaching of why he would get so angry and yell at people.  
  
He wrote this. "Whenever someone sins, he must for that time, being ceased to be holy . . . The Christian, therefore, is justified no longer than he obeys and must be condemned when he disobeys, or antinomian is true . . . In these respects, then, the sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground."  
  
So you can understand why Charles Finney would get up and scream at people to be obedient. "Stop drinking!" It was his thing to shut down bars because he equated their disobedience with being unconverted.  
  
Justin Perdue: The sinning Christian and the unconverted on the same ground is an absolutely damning reality, and I just can't conceive of preaching with such a framework. We could talk about the Bible and why that's wrong, but we don't necessarily need to go there.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I love how you always say this, Justin. When we can get justification right but then move on to the sanctification, and we believe that we are sanctified by our own works and our own efforts, here's what happens over the course of time: what happens when we preach in that way and when we are confusing the categories of sanctification and justification, when we believe that justification is by grace, but sanctification is by works, what happens is that people will get so caught within sanctification trying to become holy. Being scared of the angry pastor, I guarantee you they will begin to disbelieve the truths of justification.  
  
I won't name drop, but there is a well-known fire-and-brimstone pastor. I remember listening to his sermon as he was parting from his church to begin his new ministry endeavor. He said, "If I could just leave you with one thing, it would be how much God actually does love you." Where was that on day one? If I was a member and your parting shot was God's love for me, then I won't believe everything else you talked about before that. There's no way. It would be like me, verbally abusing my wife and saying, "I just want you to know how much I actually do love you."  
  
She would say, "What's wrong with you? You've abused me verbally for the past 20 years and now you want to tell me that you love me? That doesn't make sense."  
  
Jon Moffitt: God's love becomes a burden - there's what that is. What you hear is, "Don't you know God loves you?" That's what you hear. It is not, "God loves you, unconditionally." Grace, mercy, and kindness. It is, "Don't you know God loves you? How dare you?"  
  
I had someone ask me, "Jon, aren't you a little concerned that if you preach too much about the love of God, people won't appropriately fear Him as the Bible says?" And I said, "I don't know. I'd seem to do the same volume the Bible does, and it seems to be pretty high and pretty consistent." They get it is a story of redemption based out of love, not requirement. So there you go.  
  
Justin Perdue: Even in preaching God's holiness and God's wrath, we're preaching to the saints. We're preaching the first use of the Law - that God is appropriately angry and indignant against sin. When we have violated his holy and perfect Law, we justly stand condemned, so we're running anew. Figuratively, we're running to Christ. We can't reach God's holiness in that sense, but to the redeemed that are in Christ Jesus, we're in the Father's arms; He loves us.  
  
One final thought for me - that whole idea of a farewell sermon. One goal I have for my own preaching in my own ministry is this: if I was going to be asked to preach a farewell sermon in a year or 10 or 30, I hope at that moment I don't feel like I need to say something that I haven't been saying all this time, or I need to make up for things that I've screwed up. Not that I don't fail - we all do - but I hope that I'm just going to get up there again on Sunday and hold Jesus out to these people like I've done every Sunday before; I won't feel like I need to do anything novel because every Sunday in the church has been about Christ and him crucified.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: My circle of friends, we like to say we preach the Law full tilt - we want to kill people with the Law and raise them to life in the gospel. What angry preaching does is it does the exact opposite: it kills people with the gospel. It's like saying, "Look at the blood of Christ and look what you did to him, look at all the sin that put him there. You should feel really bad." And then it tries to raise them to life with the Law; now you need to change, you need to get better; you need to get your act together; otherwise, look back at the cross and look at what you did to him. Whereas I'd rather start by saying, "God is holy, righteous, blameless other than we are, and you are not. You are a worm. You are but dust. But the good news of the gospel is that in His kindness that God has initiated towards you and Jesus, He does indeed set his love on you in the name of Christ. Though you have sinned and sinned boldly against him, Christ has died for you, a sinner. Praise be to God."  
  
Jon Moffitt: Amen. To speak of God's love separated from his grace is not to provide good news to someone. Because what you're saying is, "God loves those who (fill in the blank)." But the gospel is, "God loves you by grace because you don't deserve it - it's unmerited, and it is unlimited." To remove God's love from His grace is not hope, but just pure Law.  
  
Hopefully, you enjoyed the conversation. Your cup of coffee is probably gone by now, so we're going to go ahead and shut this down. Thank you for supporting Theocast. We have a lot coming your way - we have been working very hard on more print materials, more systems for you to have more things to listen to, and more videos. There's just so much that's coming your way, and your financial support is what allows us to keep that coming.  
  
So thank you for your support. We'll see you next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/christ-centered-preaching-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/christ-centered-preaching/)

---

### MEMBERS: Assurance (Transcript)

*Published: April 29, 2020 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-assurance-transcript*
*Tags: Assurance, assurance of salvation, Gospel, how do I know I'm saved, Pietism, Reformed Theology, salvation*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-assurance/)  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Welcome to the members' podcast. This is where we get to take the conversation to the next level and just want to give a shout out to our members to those who support us. We're so grateful for you and your support during this time, particularly right now as we sit, we are in the middle of the shelter in place Coronavirus pandemic. The support that we've received during this time has just been really encouraging to us, so thank you for that.  
  
Welcome to those of you that aren't members. You get to kind of come into the lounge a little bit this time and experience what it's like to be a member of Theocast. We have plenty to talk about in terms of assurance. JP, I think you had some things that you wanted to jump on. So, I'm going to pass the mic over to you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This is where you see Justin get a little more heavy.  
  
Justin Perdue: This is the member's podcasts, but I think this is going to be a little different than our typical members' podcasts in that we're just continuing the themes directly, and I'm going to try to control ourselves here.  
  
So, Jon, at the end of the regular episode, you were talking some about how our good works. Even the fruit of the Spirit can bolster our assurance. The thing that's interesting to me, and I agree with that completely, and the confessions say that. That we can have our assurance bolstered by our good works and by the fruit in our lives. We agree with that, but what we want to consistently explode is the notion that we can derive any sense of peace before God from our obedience or our good works or our fruit. It is a guarantee that the Holy Spirit of God works in all of us who are trusting Christ like that. We are just to use this language and define it briefly.  
  
In terms of our understanding of salvation, and we mean that in the way that we're justified, sanctified, and glorified. We understand that there is one worker decisively, and that's God. We participate even in our own growth and sanctification in as much as we participate in life by being alive.  
  
The Spirit is at work in us. We're promised that it's a guarantee. The Holy Spirit, one of the things that he works in us to produce, I believe biblically, is peace before God. The love of God has been poured out into our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Romans 5, right? He works in us to give us peace. That is not debatable. But in doing that, this is critical, in the Spirit working in us to give us peace, it's not as though he has given us something within ourselves to draw our peace from. He is working in us. I hope that's clear. A lot of times we think that the Spirit's going to work in us in such a way. He's going to produce stuff in us that we would then look to and find peace. No, the Spirit works in us to provide and give us peace before God by strengthening and confirming and sustaining our faith in Christ, teaching us more about his sufficiency and his adequacy in our place. It's not that he transforms us and then says, hey, look to your own transformation for the ground of your peace.  
  
It's critical that we understand that distinction or we're never going to be secure in any of our moments of clarity because we're going to see that even my best works are tainted. They're mixed, and nothing that I'm doing is perfect and God only etcetera, is perfection.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When we lower the standard of the law, which if you look at the law given to us at Sinai and that from that moment forward, it is required perfection. Jesus says, if you fail in any point of law, you failed them all. Just because you may just told a little white lie, but you didn't murder someone, you don't understand. The law is not relative to a scale of the majority of humanity. The law is comparative to Christ, and at that moment, it's the holiness of God.  
  
When you think about your good works, do you believe that you offer them pure every time that you do them? Let me just phrase it this way. Is there a second of your life from the moment that you were regenerate, that you lived you could not be held guilty of some sin, and let's just think about this. Loving God with all your heart, loving your neighbor. You cannot please God unless it is done by faith. You mean to tell me that you lived your entire life loving God, loving your neighbor, and in complete faith without fail every second from the moment of your regeneration, I can guarantee you haven't because it's impossible to do with the sinful nature.  
  
Therefore, if you are going to find your peace in your performance, as Justin says, you will have little to no peace at all.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: If your grounds of assurance as found in your performance and specifically your obedience to the Christian life, there's two things that are going to happen. Both may happen, but most likely, it's going to be one or the other.  
  
One, you will come to a place where you realize that your obedience is not enough, and you will become an emotional train wreck because you will never find the assurance that you're looking for.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Are you speaking from experience there, Jimmy?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Just a little bit.  
  
Number two, because I've been guilty of this as well. If you find the grounds of your assurance in your obedience, a lot of times, what happens is you become a self-righteous jerk where nobody measures up. Not even to God's law, but nobody measures up to you. You become the standard by which you measure everybody else's obedience, and you become -  
  
Justin Perdue: - a horrible human being.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Oh, absolutely. What's interesting is that people who seem to find their assurance within themselves often become some of the least tolerable people to be around because everything becomes a measuring stick. Everything in their life becomes a measuring stick that they kind of wave in front of other people. Just to be so mindful of that, that if you ground your assurance in yourself, you're either going to become an emotional train wreck or you're going to become that self-righteous jerk that nobody can stand.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's true.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's right, and that does not understand the difference between law. That, which we must do and gospel, which has done for us. They mix them, and that's where the pride comes.  
  
Justin Perdue: Yeah. There are no imperatives. There's no doing anything in the gospel, right? We talk about this all the time.  
  
The law tells us to try new things. The gospel tells us that things have been done for us and receive it, believe it, trust it. An observation from me, and this is certainly true in the Lordship world, in the discipleship world, and even the radical world, the things that we were describing in the regular podcast. It's crazy that simple faith, trust, and reliance upon Christ is almost viewed like it's a presumption. Don't be presumptuous. Do not presume upon God that just simply by faith and trust and reliance, all is well. Of course, nobody would ever say that. Right? But that's the implication that you are presumptuous if you're saying it's just simple faith and trust in Christ. It's as though we need to do all of this stuff in order to qualify ourselves. If we do enough, then we'll be qualified to call ourselves Christians. And it's absolute crazy town. It's contra-gospel. People who imply such things are enemies of the cross of Christ.  
  
You're not sincere enough, or you're not dedicated enough, or you don't feel the right ways. It's like, well, no, I don't, but take a number and get in line because none of us do. We're not justifying sin. We're not trying to give sin a pass, but we're just trying to talk honestly about what and who we are, and we're all sin-sick wretches who are desperate for the work of Christ in our place. So why don't we point one another to him and Herald the good news, that simple fate, trust, and reliance upon Christ is the gospel. From out of that, a number of things flow that there's no debate about that part.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think that the person who emails us, calls us, you know, reaches out, and even you guys in our past. The question is, how do I know I'm elect? How do I know if I'm saved? How do I know that God truly has transformed me? And every time you ask them this question, you ask them a return. Well, why? Why do you think this?  
  
The number one answer, which Jimmy has already pointed out, but I want to emphasize this; the number one answer is self-examination. They are looking at their emotion. They're looking at their dedication. They're looking at their discipline. They're looking at their decision. They would never say this cause this sounds like Catholicism.  
  
Did I save myself? No. Then why are you asking the question? Are you sure, as if God's done his part? Now you do your part. Listen, there is no your apart. You either are saved, and you believe that, or you are not, and you reject that. Meaning is God loved the world that he sent his son, his son came and died. The Holy Spirit comes and regenerates you. Do you believe that to be true? Yes, I believe that. Do you trust in anything else other than Jesus Christ as your representative? No, I don't trust anything else. Do you believe that it is by faith alone that God justifies, he makes, right? He declares, right? Yes. I believe that.  
  
Then you are saved. That is what Jesus says. Those who believe that I am God and that I have come are my disciples. He does not say believe in me. He says believers and disciples are one. There aren't two different levels. My encouragement to the weary believer who is looking and examining their life, I want to encourage you to stop examining your life and examine the gospel, Paul to the Corinthians who are just debaucherous people. You name what they shouldn't be doing, they're doing it. Paul says he's not coming to do anything except for that. He says I want to make nothing known among you except for Christ, and him crucified. Why? Because he wants to turn their eyes back onto what they should be doing, which is examining Christ, and it's the exact opposite.  
  
These people were actually not struggling with their assurance. They were presuming upon God and living in sin. I would say those who struggle with their assurance or those who are running headlong in the sin, it's the same conclusion, which is Christ and him crucified. The glorious gospel is what brings us out of sin and what brings us into assurance.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. So a couple things that I want to mention. When people ask, well, how do, how do you know that you're saved? Well, because Easter Sunday is a thing that Jesus Rose from the dead. That was the day that I was saved was Easter Sunday over 2000 years ago. The other thing to say, let us not forget that even the faith that we have, however frail, guess what it is? It is a gift of God. I think so quickly in the evangelical world, the thing that leaves is that we will talk about all sorts of good things and say, our faith is a gift. Our faith is a gift. But the minute we bring assurance into the conversation, we begin to ask people, how's your faith?  
  
How's your faith? Well, wait a minute. Faith itself is a gift that God has by the Holy Spirit pulled me from the deepest parts of the ocean, breathe life into me, and given me faith. Why. It's, it's never, never, never, never, never times in infinity, about the quality of my faith. It is always, always, always times infinity about the object of my faith, which is Christ, and Christ alone.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. Jimmy, just to that, and we've answered this question a thousand times, how much faith is enough to have assurance.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Any.  
  
Justin Perdue: Yeah, that's right. Any faith.  
  
Jon Moffitt: No matter how weak it is.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right.  
  
Everybody's experience and strength of our own faith can ebb and flow by the moment. I mean, at one moment, I feel like my faith is quote-unquote strong. The next moment I feel like my faith is faltering. That has been the experience of all of the redeemed from all time.  
  
That's why we say any faith. When Jesus is giving an illustration about the kind of faith that will move mountains, he doesn't talk about a large amount. He talks about a very small amount. I think we oftentimes miss the point of what he's saying there, but that's maybe something to say at another time.  
  
I'm going to go ahead and do the member's podcast thing and say something punchy if you guys are okay.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Uh, oh.  
  
Justin Perdue: This is another observation. I think that many evangelicals become Roman Catholic in the way that they think about the Christian life. What I mean is this. The council of Trent, which took place in the middle part of the fifteen hundreds, was an ecumenical council of the Roman church in response to the Protestant reformation. In session 6, I believe it's Canon 23-24 this would've been in like the 15:46-47 somewhere in that range.  
  
They will talk on justification, and they obviously say that our understanding of justification is by faith and everything else. That anybody who believes that should be cursed. But they will say that good works in obedience. They say that good works, preserve, and increase the justice that's been credited to us.  
  
Now, no evangelical will say that our good works increase our justification, but I think there are tons of evangelicals that implicitly, if not explicitly, understand that our good works keep us justified. Yes, we're justified by faith, but we keep doing good works, and we obey so that we remain in good standing.  
  
And that is not the gospel. That is not Protestant. That's Catholic theology. And I think that's a big deal and I think that that's just rampant, all over the place. No, you cannot reverse engineer this thing. You cannot reverse engineer the relationship and flip it on its head, or you kill everything.  
  
You can't say, keep doing good work so that you keep yourself saved. Negative. You trust Christ alone, and then you will do good works. But that is supernatural produced by the Spirit of God, and those works are not meritorious.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. So let's just play a little game, shall we?  
  
To the person, you could ask them the question how do you know that you're saved?  
  
Well, you know, I trust Christ and you I feel like my life kind of reflects that.  
  
Okay, well let's, let's talk about that. So how does your life reflect that?  
  
Well, you know, I read scripture, and I pray.  
  
How much scripture do you read?  
  
Well, I read a little bit every day.  
  
How do you know that's enough?  
  
Well, you know, I feel like compared to other things,  
  
How do you know that you pray enough?  
  
Well, I feel like…  
  
…and you could just go on and on, and you begin to unravel or peel back all of the layers of their own obedience. Eventually, what you're going to find is, what are you trusting in? What you're trusting in and how much faith you have. What we are trying to say is, how do you know that you're saved?  
  
Well, full stop. The answer is because God promises us in the gospel of Jesus Christ, period. End of story.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: He made me a promise, and I trust that promise. He promised me.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: That's right. That is all we are trying to say.  
  
Justin Perdue: And he always keeps his promises.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: And to Justin's point, the minute that you want to mingle, the smallest shred or ounce of something that you do with what Christ has done, welcome to Catholicism. It's good to see you, right?  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. As soon as you're cooperating.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. There's a quote by a Calvin that I recently came across, and it has the word contribute in it, and it says this, "all the sorrows we endure contribute to our salvation and final good." This is a commentary on Romans 5\. We were just talking about what we do to contribute?  
  
Do you know what sorrows and trials and suffering is? It is the sin of our life coming to the surface or sin around us in our lives coming to the surface. What sorrows, suffering, and trials expose is how horrible we are at saving ourselves. We're horrible at it. We can't do it, and what it does, what did you contribute to your salvation? Sin. That's the only thing you have ever contributed, and sorrows and suffering is the proof of that. It is so dangerous to think that a level of obedience would ever bring assurance. Let's just put it this way. Let's examine some of the most famous Christians in the New Testament.  
  
Mr. Peter, who promised that he would die for Jesus. And then what does he do to a little girl? That little 10-year-old girl, he buckles and completely denies Christ. People will say, well John. He didn't have the Holy Spirit then. Okay, well, then he has the Holy Spirit, and he buckles again, and Paul has to come in and rebuke him for denying the gospel.  
  
The point of it is, we as sinful creatures, have a tendency to rely on the flesh. I will tell you if you're relying on your good work, so you were going to end up relying on your flesh because it doesn't require the Holy Spirit to read your Bible or to love your neighbor. You don't need Jesus to come out that I know.  
  
I know good Mormons who read the Bible and love their neighbor, but you absolutely need Jesus if you want God to accept you because nothing you ever do will be enough to be accepted. Therefore, that's why we live sola fide faith alone.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. I know plenty of Muslims who live a far more quote-unquote spiritual life than many of the Christians.  
  
Justin Perdue: Absolutely. Or a much more morally upright life.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's right.  
  
Justin Perdue: We could do an entire podcast, or a number of them, on all the things that are preached and promoted in the church that you don't need Jesus for. I mean, Michael Horton wrote an entire book called crisis Christianity on that very subject where you know so much of what we do in the American church, the Western church, you need Christ for none of it. What you need Christ for uniquely is to atone for your sin, to satisfy the wrath of God, and to provide you with righteousness. And Jesus has done that work perfectly. That's the message to the sinner out there, to the person who is in touch with his or her own corruption and feels and struggles with that. Who wrestles with this reality of being promised that you're God's child, but feeling like his enemy. The message is center Jesus Christ, and his work and your place are sufficient. To satisfy for your sin and to provide you with all the righteousness that you will ever need.  
  
It is counted to you completely by faith, and so you are in Christ. You are absolutely safe. God, John, to your point just a moment ago, God has made promises to us, and he is faithful to keep every one of them. That's ultimately our confidence.  
  
My favorite benediction text whenever I get to do it at church. A lot of times, one of our other elders will do this. First, in Thessalonians 5:23-24, I'm just going to read those really quickly, and this is probably a parting shot from me. Paul writes this, "now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely." So there we have sanctification, and "may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."  
  
What a lofty thing. And then he says this, "He who calls you is faithful." He will surely do it. We are resting in not our faithfulness, but God's faithfulness. And we trust the fact that God has called us, that our faith is a gift from him, and that Christ is enough and that God will ultimately bring us home to heaven. We're not looking anywhere internal. We're looking outside of ourselves to God in Christ.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Yeah. And as we leave, I want everyone to hear clearly that each one of these pastors practice church discipline, and we think that sin is damaging to the rest of a believer. Sin actually steals from our assurance.  
  
We do not think someone could profess Christ and go live in sin. That goes against Galatians 6 those who are trapped in sin go to such a want to restore them. We are not justifying sin, so please don't hear us that we are the easy believe-ism guys or the antinomianism guys. What we're saying is, yes, as Justin just said, God is the one who sanctifies us, but you cannot place your assurance. Which those who find rest, I believe, are the ones who truly see growth.  
  
Those who are pursuing assurance through means of discipline never rest. I think they actually stay in sin longer because Paul says you cannot overcome sin with the flesh. It cannot be done. It has to be done through the Spirit. So please hear us say, and I would even go back and find one of our older podcasts, which is a good works is not a dirty word. It's not bad at all. So as we close this down, please hear us. We are not saying to live in sin is okay, but we're talking to the one who struggles with their sin, that rest is found in Christ, not in you faithfully being faithful to God.  
  
Justin Perdue: And we believe that the transformation of life is real. The great irony at a human level for us is that when we take our eyes off of ourselves and we take our eyes and our focus off of our own transformation, and rest in Christ and trust him completely and concern ourselves with loving our neighbor. That's when the most substantial real transformation actually happens.  
  
It seems counterintuitive, but it's how the Lord works.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. Well, as I said, we could keep talking about this all day. Let me just say something to the listener as we do bring this to a close. If you are beginning this process of kind of just rethinking the Christian life and seeking to develop a posture of rest, you need to know something.  
  
That one is going to take time. A fair amount of deconstruction is probably going to need to take place in your head and your heart. You have been quote-unquote catechized or trained to believe that assurance is found in what you do. I know I can speak for all of us to say that it's probably going to take a long time, but let me just encourage you that the outcome is good and to keep pursuing and just know that we as guys around the mics, we are still continually reforming our own thoughts and our own minds and our own hearts. That as we seek to rest in Christ, we are looking outside of ourselves.  
  
So again, thank you to our members for your support and your love and encouragement to us. Without you, it would be impossible to do what we do.  
  
For those of you that are not members, we encourage you to be one, and you can find more information about that at [wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/). We hope this conversation is helpful and beneficial to you. You can subscribe to our podcasts wherever you get them and ask that you would share it with those who you think could benefit from this message.  
  
Thank you for listening. We hope to see you again soon.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/assurance-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/assurance-podcast/)

---

### Assurance (Transcript)

*Published: April 29, 2020 | Author: Jon Moffitt*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/assurance-transcript*
*Tags: Assurance, assurance of salvation, Gospel, how do I know I'm saved, Pietism, Reformed Theology, salvation*

**[Listen to Episode](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/assurance-podcast/)**

Jimmy Buehler: Today on the podcast, we talk about a question that we receive a lot, and that is, "how do I know that I am saved?" In other words, we are tackling the topic of assurance. The guys talk about some personal experiences of battles with assurance that we've all had. Then we look at some of the ways contemporary Christianity actually robs assurance.

Then we seek to point you to how assurance was found during the reformation era, as well as what we believe scripture and the reform confessions teach about assurance. We hope this conversation is beneficial for you.

Justin Perdue: John, you just mentioned the fact that we get questions from listeners.

We hear from our listeners on a regular basis and often the questions that we receive in the correspondence, if you read through it and boil it down, I would say 80% to 90% of what we get comes down to the issue of assurance and peace before God and eternal security. What we're going to talk about today are those things.

This is a podcast on assurance, and we want this conversation to be helpful to our regular listeners, but we also want this to be helpful to people that maybe aren't familiar with Theocast or aren't familiar with reform theology. Our hope for the conversation today is to talk a little bit personally from our own experiences and how we have or haven't wrestled with this issue of assurance.

We then want to make some observations of things that we've seen in the broader evangelical church, or even in the Calvinistic evangelical church, where assurance is eroded and removed from people. What we want to do in the last half of the podcast is point people to Christ in his sufficiency using scripture from a reformed perspective.

So that's the plan for today. I think if most people are honest, they wrestle with this. Question or this reality of how can I know that I am safe? How can I know that I'm secure and that I have peace with God? Not just now, but I am guaranteed peace with God forever.

There's nothing more relevant for our day today. This matters for your Tuesday and for your Thursday. It matters every day of your life. We're hopeful that this is going to be a helpful conversation.

Let's start with some personal experiences and some anecdotes, maybe talk about where we've been and some of the struggles that we've experienced.

Jimmy Buehler: I'd be glad to take a swing at that. I know for myself I became pretty interested in the things of Christianity when I was a teenager around 15 years old or so. But it really wasn't until college when I began to question my assurance and begin to really wrestle with my sinful nature and the day to day Christian life.

Where I found a lot of assurance, or where I realized I was finding a lot of assurances in my performance and how well I could live the Christian life; let's just be honest and frank, that I think for a lot of people, when they say how well they are living the Christian life or when they think about how well they are living the Christian life, I would make a bet that they tie it to their spiritual disciplines. AKA their personal Bible reading and their personal prayer life. Just to be clear, those are not bad things like we around the mic would say, we live in such a blessed time to be able to read the Bible in our own language and accessible translations.

It's a blessing to be able to talk to the God of the universe. But at the same time, where I was really beginning to struggle, is when I would miss days of prayer. When I would miss days of personal Bible reading, I would just be completely emotionally wrecked over that. I would feel stressed and even when I would wake up early, make myself a nice pot of coffee and sit down to read and pray, I would have all of these thoughts and feelings rushing through my mind, and my body of, "the only reason I'm doing this is so that I will feel better about my Christian life," and really kind of had the good day, bad day mentality of this morning. I read my Bible, and I prayed, so, therefore, I am going to have a good day. Therefore I'm going to feel good about my spiritual life.

This really carried on for me throughout much of my life. And to be honest, I still battle against this mindset. I would say almost daily that I will find so much comfort in the way I perform the Christian life. My assurance was so intrinsically tied to my feelings and my emotions, and my quote-unquote, the buzzword was my affections for God and how well I was living the Christian life.

I know that for you guys, the things that I'm saying are not strange. I'm sure for some of the listeners, you perhaps have been feeling these ways, but I want to throw it to you guys and give you a chance to speak as well.

Jon Moffitt: Yeah. I grew up in a revivalistic Armenian background.

You know, we went to tent revivals. We heard a lot of fiery preaching. The hotter the preaching, the better. The harsher the preaching, the better. I can remember walking out of services and hearing people thank the preacher for basically beating them that day because they really needed to hear it. That was, that was my world for 20 years.

Justin Perdue: John, you might want to define Armenian for some people, just so that they understand what you mean.

Jon Moffitt: Yeah. Revivalistic and Armenian actually tend to often go together and Armenian, meaning that they don't understand or believe that God is sovereign and saving those to whom he has elected, that it is man's decision to.

To accept the offer that God is giving them. It basically is, if you buy a life insurance policy from God, you're good to go, but it's up to you to buy it or not. I would even hear that language of life insurance is like getting your fire insurance, is basically how they would describe it, right?

Justin Perdue: God is, of course, God, but then he has made it possible. For man to be saved and then it's up to us to make the good decision.

Jon Moffitt: Yeah, that's right. The logic behind it is how can God truly beloved if he's forcing people to love him? It must be our choice to love him. And the way in which that you find your assurance is based on that moment in time called conversionism. It's this moment where I knew that I went forward during an invitation that can remember my brother and I both went forward at the same time. We didn't know what each other was doing, and I went to the back with Mr. Thompson, and he shared the gospel with me and asked me if I wanted to say their sinner's prayer.

So I got down on my knees, and I don't know what I said, whatever he told me to say. It was there that I held onto for years and years that I know I'm a Christian because I went into the back room, and I knelt down with Mr. Thompson, and I said, you know what? That's how I know because it was written in my Bible. I learned to phrase it as the sinner's prayer. I still have that Bible around here somewhere.

People will ask you, do you have a time? Do you have a moment that you knew for sure that you gave your life to Jesus? To which, a couple of years later, I rededicated my life to God because I had lost my way. But there was never a moment in my life. I wasn't a really bad kid. I mean, I did the things that most kids would do. You know, I tried smoking, and I can remember having my cussing phase. But I never got into massive trouble to where I had to have that reconversion moment where I needed to convince my parents not to discipline me because I'm going to get saved again. I was baptized twice. I think once when I was seven, and then again when I was 12\. Its assurance is based on either me remembering a moment or my decision. When I grew up with people around me when I was in college, the question always was, did I really mean it when I said that prayer back, whenever?

Justin Perdue: Sincerely?

Jon Moffitt: Right. I can't tell you how many times people, including my wife, when they're lying in bed and they're like well just in case I didn't mean it, I'm going to mean it now, and then they say the word prayer again.

Jimmy Buehler: Yeah, now's the time.

Justin Perdue: Right? It's almost like we're saved by our sincerity, you know, in a scheme like that. To be really clear, we will talk more about some of this later. We here at Theocast understand that people make decisions to trust Christ and to follow Jesus. We understand that long before we make a decision for Christ, he made a decision for us.

That's the rock under our feet and that that is a piece of this assurance conversation that we're having. I know for myself, just to start, it might be helpful to say I've struggled with anxiety my whole life. I don't know that I would've been able to frame it that way until recent years.

And by that, I mean a couple of things. Some of it is perfectionism and related to fear of man as well. But then some of it is these kinds of unsolicited thoughts of horrible things happening to me or my family. And I tend to be very pessimistic and assume that that bad will happen rather than good.

My constitution is one that I think lends itself to a real struggle with peace and assurance. In my young life, I was converted as young as. Maybe 10\. I'm confident that I meant to trust Christ by 12 or 13\. I was baptized at 14, and in my adolescent years, in my teenage years, I probably rededicated my life 150 times because I was constantly wrecked.

I can remember my experience so vividly. I would read Matthew chapter seven, verses 21 to 23, where people would come before Jesus and say, Lord, look at the things that we did. And he would say to them, depart from me, I never knew you.

I would be haunted by that reality constantly. I know that's going to be me, that I'm going to stand before Christ at the end of history, having met with all my heart to trust him and follow him and honor him with my life, and he's going to say, I never knew you depart from me.

Jimmy Buehler: That's right.

Justin Perdue: Yeah, I was like Jimmy said, I was always very aware of my obedience. Like how well am I obeying? How well am I doing the things that I should be doing? And I grew up in a very moralistic context, though it was liberal theologically. It was a very moralistic, legalistic kind of church environment where there's a hyper-focus on art performance and what we're doing.

I was always kind of like Martin Luther. It's like I could never do this well enough. I can never do enough, and I know I'm failing. Then the other thing was I was always very aware of my feelings. Both of you brothers have touched on. Feelings or sincerity and I was always haunted by that reality too.

I know I'm not sincere enough. I'm not feeling it enough. And when I did have any semblance of assurance was when I was hyper-emotional about Jesus or about the things of the faith. Like if I was moved to tears. But what Christ has done for me, it's like, okay, maybe I'm saved and if I wasn't, if I was feeling apathetic or whatever, I just was constantly wrestling and was haunted by the fact that I'm not going to be accepted by God and I will have wasted my life in trying to follow Christ, and it will all be for nothing. That's just some of my experiences as a teenager, and then through college, it wasn't much different. It honestly wasn't until I encountered the reformed theology, that you're on the ship, even though I still battle it all the time.

Jon Moffitt: Yeah, right.

Jimmy Buehler: Justin, you, you brought up Matthew seven, and I'm just mindful of other scriptures, particularly when Jesus says if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross.

There would be moments in my Christian life and walk, where I would just be feeling like I'm nailing this. Like I am the only one that is taking up my cross. Then there would be moments where I'm like, I don't even know what that means or what that looks like. And I think you said it really well. That often when somebody is struggling with assurance, when they're struggling to know kind of in the deepest recesses of their heart of whether or not they are a Christian. What they really mean, if I could put some words into the listener's mouths, so to speak. What you probably mean by that is you tie your assurance so keenly and so intrinsically to your feelings and your emotions and the way that you live and your thought life. Honestly, that is a deep black hole that once you start going down, you will never be able to get out of. Places like Romans seven have actually served to bring me a lot of comforts where you see the apostle Paul wrestling with his own frame, wrestling with his own flesh, wrestling with his own sinful nature. Now to kind of shift the conversation a little bit from kind of our personal anecdotes.

What are some of the things that you guys observe just in contemporary Christian culture? What are the things that you would say kind of Rob the average believer of their assurance?

Jon Moffitt: I would say one of the themes that come up over and over as you listen to Theocast and read our material, is the struggle between this new nature we have, which loves God, once righteousness. Now it's very much like the light has shown on in the filthy room, and we can see the clutter. And then still living in the clutter and still lying down in the bed of sin. So we use the very famous Paul struggle that you even mentioned in Romans seven, of the things I don't want to do with the things I do. Wretched man I am, who will save me from this body of death? And I would say most struggles with assurance have to do with the reality of sin that remains in our life.

Justin Perdue: Absolutely.

Jon Moffitt: People don't struggle with how much they have changed. I think that is true. But most of the time, it's, I still sin, or I still struggle as a sinner, or I still want to sin. There have been movements that have come out, and these movements, I think, have created more questions of assurance, not assuring it up.

Movements like a confusion of the Lordship of Jesus Christ, being a radical Christian, or even the whole discipleship movement, which I know all three of these are ones that we're going to speak to here in a moment, but I would say all of them are a confusion of what Luther was clarifying. This isn't new to Luther. It's part of scripture, but the saint-sinner reality, you are a sinner and a saint at the same time. Just because you are justified does not mean that God has removed your nature. He's given you a new nature, but the old nature still remains. He's given you a new life, but the old life is still there. This is why Paul says we are flesh battles against our spirit.

I think in this conversation, where we're going to go. What you're going to see is a contrast between putting your faith in realities that are outside of you and outside of your circumstances and outside of your efforts in a person, which is Christ. This will be my last comment then I'll throw it over to you guys.

Assurance has to be that Jesus saved me, not that I walked towards salvation and Jesus. This is the reformed faith that by God's sovereign grace, he came to this earth, and he saved me. That's where assurance has to be found. If you do not hold that, you can always question, did I truly walk enough towards Jesus? Did I truly accept him? Am I holding onto him tightly? Whereas we are told in John 10, Jesus holds on to us, and no one takes us out of his end.

Justin Perdue: I know there's a number of ways we could go here. I want to talk a little bit about the emphasis that exists in the broader church. This is true in just evangelicalism in general, and it's true amongst the Calvinistic evangelical crowd to a hyper-focus on discipleship.

Underneath that heading, that banner of discipleship, would be things like discipline, spiritual disciplines, how well are you doing? And by applying those and being consistent with those. Then also our affections, meaning our feelings, our emotions toward God and the things of God, and then also our obedience.

Underneath discipleship, all of those things exist amongst the crowd, where discipleship is really just championed. Just to be very clear, we understand that every Christian is a disciple. To be a disciple is to be a Christian. There's not this kind of subset underneath. Some people are Christians, and then there are the real serious types who are disciples. It's not a biblical category. In this kind of culture where discipleship is just kind of being pounded all the time, disciplines and affections and obedience are talked about constantly.

Inevitably what happens when you begin to talk about those things is you are pointing Christians back in on themselves. If you want to know that you are safe, and you want to know that you're God's, and you want to know that that you'll be with the Lord forever. Then here are the things that you need to be doing, and then here are the things that you need to be doing with respect to assessing yourself, and so assess your spiritual disciplines. How consistent have you been in reading and praying? Maybe fasting and family worship. We could go on down the list. How are your affections? How are your feelings toward God? Is there a trajectory of improvement in your life in terms of how you feel about God and the things of God? Are you more geeked up about the things of God now than you were?

Because if you're not, then you should be concerned. And then how is your obedience? Are you obeying God's word better? Now then you were a month ago or a year ago or a decade ago? Are you more excited about obedience? Does obedience come more naturally to you now? You know, as you're being transformed.

Jimmy Buehler: It's all about the trajectory.

Justin Perdue: Yeah, and so all of that, if you're listening to me talk, none of that has anything to do with the work of Christ outside of you, for you. All of that has everything to do with you. As a Christian, how am I doing? We'll use this term, navel-gazing, a lot. What we mean by that is that you're looking at your own navel all the time. You're looking at yourself all the time, rather than having your gaze fixed upon Christ and upon the work of Christ that stands rock solid objectively outside of you.

We'll say this a lot on Theocast, and I'm about to throw it over to you, Jimmy. On Theocast we'll say a lot that we are always looking outside of ourselves to save what's wrong in us. If you're pointing people in any way inside themselves, so their own obedience, their own affections, their disciplines, their performance, there is nowhere to stand.

That's at the heart of the issue here for us is point at the center. John, you said it so well. We are at the same time justified in center point, that struggling center. To something that is solid rock, not sinking sand, and the only solid rock is Christ and his righteousness for you.

Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. The Christian Church throughout history has used this word, the sacrament. The sacraments historically understood is, we see visibly the word of God. We see visibly the gospel. But the things that you are talking about JP that where we are reminded of Christ sufficient sacrifice on our behalf. Historically, the sacraments have been understood in a Protestant way as baptism and the Lord's supper. But one of the things that we have pointed out is that really in modern contemporary evangelicalism, the sacraments, to be honest, really have become spiritual disciplines and the worship time. AKA singing in Sunday morning church. The place where we quote-unquote, feel God's grace, or we receive God's grace is when we sing when we worship. Did you get the goosebumps, or as Michael Horton likes to call them, the liver shivers. Did you feel something during the singing time?

As you've woken up early and you're digging into the Bible, and you're praying, did you get something out of it? That is something I get all the time teaching high school students. Well, I just don't get anything out of it. When I read the Bible, and I really think about what they're trying to say, and often what people feel and think and put forth when it comes to these evangelical sacraments of, you know, personal, spiritual discipline and worship is that if we're not feeling something, then something is wrong with us. An observation I'd like to point out is this: when God's grace becomes something you receive based off of something you do, it is no longer God's grace.

Justin Perdue: That's right. It's now conditioned, it's not unmerited in any way.

Jimmy Buehler: Absolutely, yeah. It's merited favor. Whereas what we see historically, that Christians have understood and baptism and the Lord's supper, those things are two things that happened to you. You know, someone places you under the water, somebody gives you the bread and the cup, that these are outside of you. Objective realities. But even in a modern evangelical sense. You know, the Lord's supper has become such a place of undue stress and anxiety that we take the examine yourself, and certainly, there is room for that in biblical Christianity. But at the same time, what the Lord supper points us to is these objective realities that as surely as I eat this bread so, I can trust that Christ's body was broken for me. And as surely as I drink this wine is so I can trust that the blood of Christ was shed for me. Justin, I think you wanted to make a couple of other brief comments about the sacraments here. I'm going to toss it to you.

Justin Perdue: Yeah, thanks, man. I think the way that evangelicals treat the sacraments is really just a symptom of the larger systemic problem. I want to illustrate it this way: the way that evangelicals talk about baptism and the Lord's supper, those sacraments are made to be more about our devotion to God than they are about God's devotion and commitment to us. That's the kind of fundamental paradigm shift that we're talking about here.

Everything in the Christian life and the sacraments included has more to do with God's commitment and God's devotion to us to save us in spite of ourselves. And it could never be about our devotion to him. Because if you turn it into being about our devotion to God, we are all done. Like we got no shot. Right? But if it's about God's devotion and commitment to us, okay, now we've got something that we can actually sing about and that we can actually rejoice over.

Jon Moffitt: I would say if you look at Paul's epistles, let's just take Ephesians and Philippians and Colossians as examples. What does he do? He points you to the objective realities of Jesus Christ. He's talking about what Christ has done, who he is, his nature, his faithfulness, his power. He then talks about how all of that is ours by faith alone that we receive it. Then he goes after the Galatians harder than anyone. The moment that someone tries to add work back into. What he means by this is, if you think God accepts you as faithful, or he accepts you as righteous before him, by Christ's death and your works, you are believing something that is akin to witchcraft, is what he's saying.

He gives us some very harsh language, and I would say there are movements out there that have good intentions, but they have caused more people to lose their assurance. I think they're trying to help them. Maybe not help them with their assurance, but they're going after what we call nominal or lazy Christians and calling into question these people.

Because if you weren't making Jesus Lord of your life, and this is what it looks like to make Jesus Lord of your life, our response to that is, Jesus is Lord. You can't make him anything other than he is. You either accept him for who he is, but you do not make him that. I think it's a rebranding of rededicating your life. They just call it Lordship. I don't think there's two qualities of the disciples. This goes into discipleship as well, or even radical. There aren't two levels. Those who are God in by prayer. And then those who have really dedicated their life, making Jesus Lord or becoming a disciple or radical Christianity.

I'm just going to throw that out there. I know you guys are probably going to blow up on that, but I think that those movements have stripped people because they look at their life and go, that's not me. I don't fit in that category.

Jimmy Buehler: Yeah, absolutely. I would say within the radical Christianity mindset, there's just no room to live a normal Christian life. There's no room to be boring, so to speak, just to be ordinary. My goodness, if you have free time and you're not using it to evangelize to your neighbor or do this or do this spiritual discipline, then are you actually even saved?

There is a phrase that we use here on the podcast all the time, and it's called pietism. Pietism is overly obsessed with what we call the interior of the Christian life. How, how good you feel about Jesus, your affections for Jesus, your actions for Jesus. We contrast that with what we call confessionalism, where it's the exterior of the Christian life. It's pointing to the objective realities of Christ. Where pietism likes to ask the question, are you even saved?

What we like to ask in confessionalism is, is God gracious? Is God good? Is that either all Jesus or all nothing? You know, that's what we want to point people to, is that assurance, rest, hope, peace, life, faith, trust. All of these things are outside of you. The reformation era term is extra notes outside of yourself.

Justin Perdue: Yes, that's right. I want to talk a little bit about scripture that's not frowned upon on this podcast.

Jimmy Buehler: Indeed.

Justin Perdue: Let's turn people in the last, 15 minutes or so here, let's talk to the listeners about Christ and his sufficiency, and in light of our experience, why that's such glorious news.

I'm going to begin with Romans 7, Galatians 5 realities that we've touched on. I'm just going to be really clear. Our understanding biblically is that we are, at the same time, saint in sinner, meaning that we are justified by faith in Christ. We are declared righteous by God, and we are safe. We still struggle against our corruption that we inherited from Adam.

This means that we, like the apostle Paul describes in Romans chapter 7 and in Galatians 5 verse 17 in particular, our experience goes like this: there are good things that we want to do because we're born again. We have God's spirit in us. There are good things that we want to do that we find ourselves not doing, at least as much as we want. There are bad things that we don't want to do that we sadly find ourselves doing much more often than we want. There's this internal war. You'll hear us talk about that and use that phrase. There is a war going on inside of us between our spirit and our flesh. Paul says in Galatians 5:17 that because of that war between the spirit and the flesh, it results in you not doing what you want to do.

This is the great struggle for every Christian that I want in my inner man to obey and honor God and glorify God and do righteousness. Yet I find that I am unable to pull it off. God tells me that I'm his child, but I feel like I'm his enemy because I'm sinning. I hate it, and I know God hates sin.

So what do I do with this? Ultimately, the answer has to be, as we've said, it's outside of us, and it's found in Christ Jesus. I immediately go to a passage like Hebrews 10:11-14, it's one of my favorite paragraphs in scripture where we hear about the fact that Christ has made a sacrifice once and for all that is sufficient. It's so sufficient that he sat down at the right hand of God like it's so over that there's nothing left to be done because Jesus has accomplished redemption. Then verse 14 of Hebrews 10, he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Your life is changing. The sanctification is a process, right? It's ongoing. While that process is happening and it's all over the map. Sometimes it's going well; sometimes, it's not going well at all. But it doesn't matter because you are safe in Christ because he has perfected you for all time.

Jon Moffitt: Amen. I can remember, I was driving on the way to seminary talking to a good friend of mine, and he mentioned Galatians to me. It was here that the reformed faith finally felt like the puzzle came all together. The confessions, this constant pushing of us towards Christ. So in Galatians, Paul says 3:1, "Oh foolish Galatians, who has Bewitched you is what before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed and crucified. Let me ask you only this, did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the spirit. Are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

That is the crux of assurance that you think you get in by faith, but you maintain by your performance. Paul says no. Your justification, the right standing you have before God, him declaring you. Righteous and your sanctification being transformed into his image are both works of the spirit that come to us by faith.

Therefore, your progress, how you are being transformed, you must be dependent upon Christ by faith. You cannot measure yourself up against the ruler on the wall saying, I should be here by now because I've been a Christian for so many years. Why am I still struggling with the same sin that I struggled with when I got saved?

All these other Christian testimonies have it to where they no longer struggle. And may I point you back to the constant reminding of the New Testament, that we have to be aware of Satan who is coming to deceive and tempt us, that our flesh is going to war against our spirit that. May I just read to you the end of Colossians chapter 3 where he says all of these things, and he's got all of these works, they sound spiritual and wise, but they are of no value of stopping the flesh. And then what does Paul say at the beginning of chapter 4? Look to Christ. And he only tells you the finished work of Christ, where he is seated at the right hand of the Father. What is he saying? Your fight against sin, your assurance, your protection, is always based upon what Christ has done. What we always say, his faithfulness, our faith in him, not our faithfulness. Faith versus faithfulness is our faith in Christ, not our faithfulness.

Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. I can almost hear all of the objections though, coming through our computers and our screens right now on our phones.

All I can hear right now is the alarms off, yeah, but what about this, and what about this? And I think the largest objection is just like, okay, well if it's all about Christ and not me, and it's all outside of me, well then, one, how is it that I grow as a Christian? And two, are you saying that I can just kind of do whatever I want?

Let me answer the latter question, and then I'll move back to the former. No, that is not what we are saying. I mean, Paul makes that very overly and abundantly clear in Romans chapter 6 that, just because there's grace, we just don't go on sinning, but rather what we are putting forth is there is a fundamentally different posture in what we are.

What we are saying is that the reason we fight, and we talk about this in our primer on faith versus faithfulness, the landscape of fighting sin is rest, and it's resting in the objective realities of Christ. To go back to my former question, which is, then how do I grow as a Christian? As we've quoted all of these scriptures, something that we need to take to mind in our overly individualized American culture is that what we see in scripture, as we read other people's mail in the epistles of the New Testament, is that often the commands, the imperatives, the things that we see to do are corporate realities. We need to be ever mindful that as we grow as a Christian, we don't do so on an Island. That we grow within the larger communion of the saints and the gathered church and the worship of church.

This is what we talk about on this podcast as the ordinary means of grace. That we sit under the preached word. We sit under, and we remember our baptism. We remember the promises made in our baptism, and we look to the promises that God gives us in the Lord's table. That God will indeed grow us and sanctify us. However slowly that he desires, however he sees fit under the ordinary means of the gathered church.

Justin Perdue: Yeah. The Romans 6 reality, to pick up on that briefly Jimmy, is critical for our understanding because Paul's response to that question, should we send all the more that grace may abound, he doesn't respond with law and commands and all those things and threats. He responds with the reality of our union with Christ by faith, meaning that by faith, we have been united with Jesus. The language of the New Testament is that we are now in Christ. We were in Adam. In Adam, we fell and were ruined. We are now in Christ, and so everything that is Christ is ours. If somebody were to press me, Justin, how do you know that you'll make it to heaven? How do you know that your elect even, if we're going to use the language of reformation theology, how would you know that you're alive?

My answer to that is quite simple. The answer is Christ. I mean, what is your confidence? How do you know you'll be in heaven? The answer, Jesus, I'm thinking about Christ's words in John chapter 6 or John chapter 10, even John 15 where he talks so intimately to us and says that all that the Father has given to me will come to me and I'll never cast you out.

That's John 6:37, and then in 38, 39, 40, he goes on to talk about how he'll lose none of all those the Father has given him. He'll lose none of us who are in him by faith, but he'll raise us up on the last day. In John chapter 10 that we are in his hands, and nobody can pluck us out. John 15 that we have been united to him, and apart from him, we can do nothing. How we are safe and secure because of those realities. At the end of the day, our confidence is wholly and completely and only Christ. It's his sufficiency, not our obedience or our performance or our sufficiency, you know? It makes all the difference when we understand that my security rests on the fact, not that I will never fail, but that Jesus will never fail me.

I can rest there.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. I would say each one of these men were all that are called confessional Christians. We hold to a confession. What that means is it's an explanation of scripture. There's so much that scripture says, everyone has a confession. It's not a very good one if it's not built on tried and true fighting against, basically Harrison. In the confessions, we are told that our assurance has to have a foundation that is unshakeable, and that assurance is Jesus Christ.

People will say, well, John, what about fruit? Or what about examining ourselves, which is an inappropriate passage? We can talk about it at another time, but when we talk about fruit checking, this is where assurance gets blown apart by a 12-gauge shotgun because people's fruits, they're just not bounded.

I will tell you this, if Christ is your assurance, meaning that what he has done on my behalf, faith in him. This is why the five solos are so important. Faith alone in Christ alone, that is where your foundation begins. Now do good works. Can they bolster? Can they be added to your assurance? Sure. Christians, for years, have found encouragement by seeing God transform their lives.

But the moment you flip that, and you make the foundation of your assurance based on your level of good works. I promise you; you will never feel safe or secure because let me ask you this. Are you sure you did those good works in the spirit or in the flesh? Because Paul tells us on the last day, those that are done in the flesh will burn in a be of no use.

So do you truly want to bank your eternity on that which may burn? I'm telling you right now you don't because scripture tells you not to.

Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. That's the interesting thing, John, is that when you are seeking to find assurance in your own fruit and what you have done and accomplished for Christ, you're actually giving yourself the exact opposite outcome that you desire. You're constantly going to be stressed and anxious and worried about whether it's not enough.

Conversely, what we are trying to put forth is that. When you rest, hopefully on and receive the objective promises of God in the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is what motivates and pushes and drives the believer toward a life of love and good works. I feel like we could talk about this topic all day.

It's probably one of our favorite topics to discuss. Here at Theocast, we have what's called a member's podcasts. And in that member's podcast, we tend to take the topic to the next level and perhaps get even a little punchier at times. And so just to kind of give the broader listenership a taste, we are going to make today's members podcast free. We invite you to join us over there, where we will continue to discuss these themes. Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation is fruitful for you and beneficial as you seek to find your rest in Christ.

Thank you. See you over at the members' podcast.

[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-assurance-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/assurance-members/)

---

### MEMBERS: Q&A: Confessional Theology, Justification & Sanctification, and Church Discipline (Transcript)

*Published: April 22, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-q-a-confessional-theology-justification-sanctification-and-church-discipline-transcript*
*Tags: Church Discipline, confessional, Confessional theology, Confessions, covid19, Justification, Justification and sanctification, Sanctification*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-qa-church-discipline-fruit-andmore/)  
  
Justin Perdue: We are continuing our live webinar Q&A. This has been a really great time so far. The only negative to any of this is that we've answered like five or ten out of I can't even tell you how many questions we've received. Thank you so much for your participation in this, and please don't be offended if we have not gotten to answer your question.  
  
Before we jump into this, we want to thank our members pointedly for their support of Theocast. We say this stuff all the time, and it is sincere. We couldn't do what we're doing without you, and you have a much bigger hand in keeping Theocast going than you might realize. Thank you for partnering with us and continue to do so and tell others about it. Spread the word so that we can spread this wonderful reformation theology of the sufficiency of Christ and the rest that is ours in him too as many people as possible.  
  
Jon, I'm going to go and throw it over to you. I know you've got a question that you're ready with.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Sarah Bosch is asking a question in response to something we had said in the Proverbs podcast, which is we had mentioned that there are differences between Lutherans and reformed folk regarding Law and gospel. Can I clarify? We record those, and I don't remember everything we say, so I would need to go back. I think of what I was referencing is maybe third use of the Law. I could be wrong there.  
  
With the Law-gospel distinction, I will say that not everyone in the reformed world would agree on the Law-gospel distinction. That is even in some real debates that go on. I would say that I got most of my information from Lutherans when it comes to the Law and the gospel distinction.  
  
I think on the third use of the Law, some of the responses that we received from Lutherans were... They would describe it a little bit differently than we would. I had a long conversation about this, and they would say that there are three uses. In terms of how they describe them, that would take an entire podcast, and we should probably have a Lutheran on to answer, so I don't answer for them. But I do know that they probably wouldn't order them the way that we do.  
  
Justin Perdue: They order them differently.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I didn't really even answer your question.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I think the answer is it depends. It's contingent on who you're asking. There are so many little nuances there that it's difficult to really nail that one down.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Next question, you guys. A 2 Corinthians 3:15 came to us. Roland from Arizona and I interacted through email and Roland asks, "What is meant by 2 Corinthians 13:5 when Paul says, 'Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith, test yourselves or do you not realize this about yourself, that Jesus Christ is in you unless indeed you fail to meet the test.'" I can't tell you how many people I've heard use this as a form to scare people out of nominalism, and out of laziness. "They aren't living the Christian life. There's not enough fruit in their lives." There is a whole number of reasons that this has been used. I know that in the lordship crowd, they use this; "If you say you're a believer and you aren't acting like you're a believer, then you need to examine yourself." By what type of examination are we looking for? Are we looking at how much fruit is enough fruit to know that you're a believer? What is the standard that you're looking for? Does Paul give us the standard by which we can determine whether we are in the faith or not?  
  
I know the confessions will say that our good works can bolster our assurance, but they are not the ground of our assurance. If Paul says in the faith, he's talking about the ground by which you are standing on. The three of us had a conversation about this. What is it actually that Paul is getting at here? Is it questioning nominalism, or is there a context that's going on here?  
  
Justin Perdue: The context of 2 Corinthians is that there's a huge debate swirling in the Corinthian church about the legitimacy of Paul's ministry and his apostleship. There are other "super apostles," as he even refers to them as, and so he is defending the legitimacy of his own ministry at points in that letter. It's our understanding around the microphones that what Paul is speaking to there is the fact that many of the people in the church at Corinth were converted under his own ministry and according to his own preaching of Christ.  
  
What he's saying is that if his legitimacy is in question, and he's not really an apostle because he's not doing signs and wonders and all these crazy things that these super apostles are doing, then Corinthian church might want to examine themselves to see if they're even in the faith legitimately. Because if Paul is illegitimate, maybe the Corinthian church is too. If Paul's gospel is illegitimate, then maybe the Corinthian church is not saved. If Paul's teaching and my ministry, in general, are not on the level, then maybe the Corinthian church should be concerned. That's a short answer.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To add to that before we move on, this does not mean that Paul is wanting every single believer to be examining their selves, fruit-checking every single day of their life. This is what causes people to not live in rest because instead of looking outside of themselves, looking to Christ and the reality that they are safe because of their faith in Christ, and that their growth is a monergistic - meaning it's something that's being done to them, it's not something that they are doing to themselves. Do we cooperate? That's a whole another conversation we'll get to. But just to be clear, the Christian is not to be living every single day examining their life to make sure that they can check the box and say, "Yeah, I'm good today." This is what church discipline, which going back to it, if you have a sin in your life and you're unwilling to repent of it, and you're unwilling to see that you need to restoration and forgiveness from Christ, then that may apply to you. But in context, you cannot use that verse and apply it to say that every single Christian needs to be examining themselves. Unless it's, "Do I believe that Christ is the only sufficient Savior? That he is the only one to remove sin and make my standing before God acceptable?" By faith, then if that's your examination, that's fine. But I don't think the context is what he means.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I'm going to bring in another question because it's so similarly related. This question comes from Jeff, and it says, "How does Satan primarily seek to rob Christians of their assurance and how do they contradict the truth of the gospel?"  
  
As we're continuing to talk about this, I'm going, to be honest. I don't think Satan has to do much because either you do it - you do his job well enough - or perhaps your part of a context where it's preached to you well enough. In so many people's lives, Satan or some demonic spirit doesn't really need to come at you and rob your assurance because frankly, if you're anything like me, you do a good enough job for the enemy himself. You'll start looking at all of these things in your life. "Am I doing this enough? Am I reading, praying, singing, and worshiping privately? Am I doing this enough?" But when you take a step back, and you begin to look at that, what you're doing is you are grounding your assurance not in what Christ has done for you, but in what you are doing for Christ. A piece of literature to kind of just bathe in for a long period of time is Luther's Heidelberg Disputation, where he talks about this extensively. One of the theses he says is that the Law says do this, and it is never done.  
  
You could say, "I've prayed today. I've read Scripture today. I served my neighbor today. I think I'm okay." The Law would say, "But have you done enough? Have you done it perfectly? How do you know that you've read enough Scripture? How do you know that you've prayed the right prayers? How do you know that you're not doing those things? Just to kind of prop them up before the Lord? How do you know this? How do you know that?" What does the gospel say? The gospel says, believe this, and it is already done. That is Law-gospel in a nutshell. The Law says do this, and it's never done.  
  
I shared in our high school chapel the other week. I was telling these kids, "The Law tells us that you are not good enough. But here's why that's good news because Christ is good enough for you." Does that mean we discount any and all good works? No, not at all. But it means that we reframe them in that, as Luther said, God doesn't need your good works, but your neighbor does. Your good works benefit nothing to your justification, but your good works benefit your neighbor. And so, it's not that we tell people, "Don't love people" or "Don't pray" or "Don't read your Bible." We'll certainly do those things. But we do them in view of God's goodness to us as revealed in Christ, for the good of our neighbor. So, I think that's a little different.  
  
Justin Perdue: This one comes from Charlie in California. I'm going to read it. "As a pastor who had a grace awakening, transitioned from pietistic evangelicalism, and spent a couple of years preaching Christ in my congregation and deconstructing our former beliefs and practices, I then found it difficult to actually call my people to follow and obey. I found myself either apologizing or circling back and emphasizing resting in Christ. However, over time it seemed like I had a single drum to beat. I don't mean Christ. Of course, I should always be pointing to Christ. I never really called anyone to anything, at least not without disclaimers." But Jesus really did everything, you know. Now you're just really living out that reality. And he says, "I know that that's true, but can we just stop saying it every time? Or if we do, do we run the risk of people sliding back into pietism and performances?"  
  
This is a good question, pastorally, in terms of preaching. We here around the mics, we do emphasize rest in Christ in anything and everything. We always talk about the fact that the Christian life is identity forward; we are in Christ, and then we live in that identity; we are justified. That's our status, and we live forward from that. But this is where the uses of the Law are important. This is where even just expositional preaching, preaching the text, is important.  
  
So, Charlie, you're not alone in being a pendulum swinger. We all are. We tend to swing from one view to another view, and the pendulum rarely stops in the middle. We often react against pietism, or we react against the things that we've experienced, and we go too far where we then feel some kind of guilt or some sense of wrongness going on if we're going to call people to any sort of obedience, or if we tell people to flee sin or pursue righteousness. The uses of the Law are helpful here in that we can not only preach the first use, which we should do every Sunday - the first use of the Law being to show us our sin and drive us to Christ. The Law requires perfection of you, and it crushes you, and you can't meet it and now run to Jesus. But then the second and third uses, which are two, to restrain our corruption and then also to serve as the perfect guide for our lives in Christ, are really important for us as we see imperatives in the text.  
  
When God tells us that something is good for our lives, we encourage our people to pursue it. When God tells us something is sin and will thereby bring wreckage in our lives, we encourage our people to flee from it. We're just using the Law lawfully in those ways as we preach the whole counsel of God's word.  
  
That's how I think through it as a preacher. I want to be very clear on the first use and the sufficiency of Christ, and then within that and underneath that, use the Law rightly: to encourage my people to pursue righteousness and to flee from sin because it's going to be good for their lives, it will honor the Lord, and we are safe to do that in Christ.  
  
That's a wonderful thing. Calvin would say that in Christ Jesus, the Law is our kind adviser, so we can preach accordingly. We don't need to preach the third use of the Law in particular in a threatening way. The problem with many guys in the pulpit, and we've all heard this and experienced this, is they preach the third use of the Law - the Law as guide - with first use of the Law tone. It's threatening, crushing you, and that's the problem. Preach the third and use it with an appropriate tone, understanding that we're safe in Jesus. Then preach the first use, preach the Law in all of its holiness and all its terror outside of Christ, and encourage the saints anew to run to Jesus, for safety, and for their righteousness.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When I made the transition out of pietism and legalism, and I say this for the sake of my wife, I have a personality where I can swing from one direction to the other very quickly. If I'm convinced it's wrong, then I'm, I'm gone, I'm over here, and I'm going to go way over here. That's good in some circumstances, but it's really bad in others because you don't take time to realize all of the implications that must go with it. I get really excited about one thing, I'll just go ahead and jump into it, and when I look back, and there's a wreckage of a bunch of cars behind me that should have followed, but I was too reckless in getting into my lane. I felt this where I had a hard time telling somebody to do anything. I didn't want to be a legalist, or I didn't want them to not rest in Christ. The way in which we understand the importance of the church and the function of the church, along with our freedom in Christ, is what keeps the obedience that every believer should have in check. So, if you only emphasize obedience apart from the gospel, then you are going to be a legalist and a pietist. If you only emphasize grace without the outflow of grace... The outflow of grace is love for neighbor. I would say the joy that we have of the gospel is then taking the message we have received of the gospel, and with joy, taking that same message and then giving it to someone else.  
  
You don't live the gospel. We'll do another podcast on that. No one lives the gospel.  
  
Justin Perdue: But one guy did.  
  
Jon Moffitt: One guy.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: One. That's it.  
  
Justin Perdue: His name is Jesus.  
  
Jon Moffitt: When you feel the sense of freedom that "I live in grace. The Father is accepting me. Nothing I do or don't do will ever change that. Now I have the freedom to love neighbor as I should for their benefit and for the glory of God, never in fear but always in a sense of rest." When someone comes up to me and says, "Hey, Jon, you should do this. It makes total sense to me." I'm not afraid. I live in grace. If my neighbor needs my help, then I'll absolutely do that.  
  
Most preachers that I've talked to that make this transition... It is a hard transition. They're afraid to preach obedience.  
  
I guess I had the next question.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: You do. We're all waiting.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I do. Uh, I think it, uh, is, is, uh, the reason that I think it fits is that, so Ricky Lozano asks this question, "On how much a Christian should sin, you touch on fear-based preaching. Fear-based preaching has damaged my conscience. How do I recover from this?" You are not alone.  
  
I was talking with a pastor yesterday, and he told me that after listening to some very famous Calvinistic preachers that are on the internet, that he had to stop listening to them because every time he did, he would begin to question his assurance. So, he just stopped. The first key is maybe don't listen to that. I would say that I don't have a problem with someone preaching sin if you are guilty of sin, and you need to repent of your sin. But I will tell you that Paul says in Romans that the kindness of God is meant to lead us to repentance.  
  
I think you need to find preaching that is going to preach to you the objective realities of Christ, to remind you that you are accepted in the eyes of God, not based upon how much you don't sin or how far you have come in your sanctification, or how well your emotional status is or how much affection you have for him. God never accepts you based upon your lack of sin, your presence of holiness, or your emotional status. He is always accepting of you based upon His love that He set upon you and the gift of the Spirit that you have in faith. It is always a reality, and from that position, then you can find obedience.  
  
If someone is always calling into question your assurance based upon your level of obedience, I'm going to tell you there isn't a man alive or a woman alive that will measure up to that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Like Ricky, I've been there. I began to "mature" as a believer in the Calvingelical world. When I was in college, this kind of fear-based preaching was getting really popular. It was when this kind of preaching was just kind of starting to be plastered all over the internet. I just dove right in, began to listen to a lot of it, and it ruined me. You could go all the way back to my very first interview here on Theocast and just listen to my experience with it.  
  
Now that I've kind of come out of that, I don't know what the infatuation with that sort of preaching is. I have a few guesses, and one of those would be that you are in this self-righteous place. I think it makes people feel good that they can throw something out to people and just say, "See? I'm killing it. I'm slaying the Christian life." I think there's a little bit of that. I just saw a post earlier before we got on. Somebody posting a video clip along the lines of, "Here are the things to know if you are a Christian." The title of the video is, "Do you know if you are really saved?" Can we cut that out? I don't know how helpful that really is. We joke with the phrase, we try to get people scared, sanctified, and it just doesn't work. It doesn't work because it does one of two things. One, it either breaks the bruised reed, or it makes people feel really good about their own righteousness, which they don't have.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to make an observation about this kind of preaching in the Calvinistic sphere in particular, and then try and make an edifying comment and then close this down. An observation that I've made over time is how Calvinists will often talk about Arminians or semi-Pelagians in terms of the lack of assurance that exists in those theological schemes - where people can lose their salvation and fall away.  
  
As Calvinists, we believe in the preservation of the saints. In this kind of fear-based Calvinistic preaching, there's an even worse, more sinister kind of eroding assurance that takes place. It's absolutely terrible because instead of saying, "In an Arminian sense where there's prevenient grace, and we all had the playing field level and we can now choose Christ or not," or in the semi-Pelagian sense, "We fell, but we didn't fall that badly so we can still make a choice for Christ." As a Calvinist, guys will say, "You can't choose Christ. He must draw you to himself. The Father must do that, and God must have chosen you. Your salvation is all of God. But if you continue on as you are and you don't improve in this particular way or that particular way, or if your affections are not where they should be, then you're just going to prove yourself to be an unbeliever." You've just eroded and exploded any possibility of assurance that could have ever existed. It's worse because you're telling me, "If God chose you, He's going to do this. But if you keep living how you are, you're just going to prove yourself to be an unbeliever."  
  
Well, thank you for that because now every one of us sitting here listening to you, if we have a conscience that's working at all, and if we're aware at all of our own internal war in the way that we're fighting our sin, we have no hope now. We really don't know where to look. Maybe this thing you're saying about Jesus and Christianity is legitimate, and it just didn't take with me. I don't know.  
  
It's really sad how this wrecks people. I don't want to impugn those guys' motivations; I'm confident that people that preach this way mean well, and they want to instill a sense of awe and wonder, and they want people to be reverent before the Lord, and all of those kinds of things. But I think that you're misrepresenting God. He is not just a holy God, He is a gracious God, He is a righteous God, and He is a merciful God. When we overemphasize one aspect of His nature to the neglect of another, we're misrepresenting Him.  
  
The Lord, who is holy and righteous and who always does right, and is the judge of all the earth, describes Himself as being merciful and gracious and slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, and He delights to save sinners. He has given His Son in the place of wretches like us so that we might be declared righteous, conformed into the Son's image, and might dwell with God forever.  
  
We live in that safe, rock-solid reality. Then in the midst of that safety and security, and that peace in that rest, we can be exhorted and encouraged to press on, trust in Christ, seeking to conform our lives to the word of God by God's grace.  
  
We here at Theocast, we're not alone in this. This is how people thought for centuries: that safety and security and peace and rest can propel us forward in the Christian life. They are great motivators for the pursuit of obedience. You don't need to scare people and scold them to holiness, as Jimmy said. It takes a number of years, sometimes a detox from this stuff. So, brother, just continue to look to Christ as your righteousness, your entire and only righteousness and continue to live in him.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Faith Vs. Faithfulness. If you haven't read that, please do. Shoot us an email, and we'll send you a free copy of the pilgrim's guide to rest. We'll send you a physical copy of that, so we'll send that out to you as a way to encourage you.  
  
Justin Perdue: Thank you once again to all the people who have tuned in today and who have been a part of this live webinar - it's our first experience with this. This has been fun. Thank you again to our members for all of your generous support. We're grateful for you.  
  
We hope that you all have been encouraged by this conversation. I know I have. I've enjoyed being a part of it, and we look forward to having another conversation with you next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/qa-church-discipline-fruit-andmore-transcripts/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/qa-church-discipline-fruit-andmore/)

---

### Q&A: Confessional Theology, Justification & Sanctification, and Church Discipline (Transcript)

*Published: April 22, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/q-a-confessional-theology-justification-sanctification-and-church-discipline-transcript*
*Tags: Church Discipline, confessional, Confessional theology, Confessions, covid19, Justification, Justification and sanctification, Sanctification*

[**Listen to Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/qa-church-discipline-fruit-andmore/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we do our first-ever live online Q&A. We talked about it and thought it would be a good idea in light of the COVID-19 pandemic and quarantine that's going on for many of us. This could be a way to get the Theocast community together online, take some questions, and have an encouraging conversation.  
  
There were some wonderful questions submitted, but unfortunately, we only got to a few of them. We talked about a number of things, including confessional theology and how that's a help to us in times like now. We considered church discipline, justification, and sanctification. And then, in the members' podcast, we talked about how to preach obedience in light of the sufficiency of Christ. We also talked about fear-based preaching.  
  
We hope that this Q&A is an encouragement to you. Stay tuned.  
  
Jon Moffitt: As everybody already knows, the whole world is feeling the effects of the Coronavirus, specifically the majority of our listeners who are here in the United States. Most of these people are at home with extra time. We thought we would participate with them in any way that we can to provide more content.  
  
We're also going to open up a lot of the stuff that we have for our membership for free because we know that people are scouring for good information, especially when most information on the internet right now is negative and full of fear. There is much to be afraid of. But I think, at the same time, we need to be feeding ourselves with good information and objective realities. We need to remind ourselves that we are within the hand of God and can be safe within His hands. At the same time, we are to use wisdom.  
  
We did a podcast on joy in the midst of suffering, and it's in reference to the CoronavirusCoronavirus. Today, we thought we'd do something different. For those of you that are at home, we thought we'd do something live using Zoom.  
  
We have almost over 50 people right now that are here asking questions and giving all kinds of great comments. If you want to ask a question, you can go to the bottom where it says questions, and you will be able to ask those down there. If you're interested in asking your question on the podcast audibly, just let us know, and we will take that, open it up, and let you answer.  
  
If we've picked three questions that were emailed in to start us off, and then we will grab several of these that are being put in at the moment, there is absolutely no way we're going to be able to get to all of these. So we're going to spend about 45 minutes answering your questions, and then we'll go over the members' podcast and do other 20-ish minutes. You never know how long that podcast will be. It just gets to the point until we're done.  
  
And how fired up we get, I guess.  
  
If we don't get recording right away, we run out of time. Jimmy, why don't you go ahead and start us with our first question?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I am glad to do that. This one comes from Stuart, and his question is this: "I would be interested to hear how confessionalism strengthens us in the middle of this pandemic, which for me, and I'm sure for others, has brought up much unbelief and doubt that was present but not stirred up in the heart until trouble came." That's a great question, Stuart.  
  
We talk about this a little bit in the podcast that we recorded yesterday. A great source of comfort that all three of us found actually came from the confession that our church uses, which is the 1689 London Baptist Confession. Chapter five talks about divine providence. In paragraph one of chapter five, it talks about the infinite power and wisdom of God that He upholds, directs, and governs all things and all creatures. Specifically, what we found in paragraph three was particularly helpful. The framers of this confession wrote, "In his ordinary providence, God makes use of means, though he is free to work apart from them, beyond them, and contrary to them at his pleasure." As we think about the global pandemic that has brought the world to its collective knees, and as guys who rely heavily on the ordinary means of grace that God uses - the preaching of the word, the words visible at baptism and the Lord's Table to strengthen, create, and establish our faith, this is difficult. It's painful for us as pastors to not be able to gather with our people. Yet we also understand that -, and Justin coined this yesterday - where we are in extraordinary times, God will also give us extraordinary grace. We rest in those things. You have confessionalism at a paper level, but you also have confessionalism at a 30,000-foot level that the truths that we have constantly harped on in this podcast - that we find rest in Christ outside of ourselves, that what God has given us in Christ in the gospel, a perfect righteousness imputed to us through no effort or merit on our own - those things remain true even in the midst of a pandemic.  
  
Even when things are going well, when you are able to attend the gathered worship with the saints, that you are able to have the word of God preached over you and you see the gospel in the table, even when you "feel good" and you're able to function in your everyday life in a normal sense, those things are true. But even now, when we're kind of sheltered in place when it's very easy to be discouraged, to feel lonely, to feel isolated, and to feel socially distant from people, those objective truths of the imputed righteousness of Christ to your account, they're still there. They didn't go anywhere.  
  
I think of places in Scripture like Psalm 13, where the Psalmist cries out to God. He asks God for help and for faith, but he recounts the faithfulness of the Lord in the past. This is something that I shared with my church last Sunday over Facebook live: we rest in the truths that God is not distant, that Jesus is not distant from sin and death, but rather he was crucified, buried with sin and death, and he rose again and defeated them both.  
  
I don't know where you specifically are, but I would like to encourage you. The truths that you fight to believe that God is for you in Christ, that He has from eternity past chose you to be His own. Those truths are still there in a time of pandemic.  
  
Justin Perdue: It might help to state this clearly: to be confessional certainly does mean that we hold to a confession of faith. For all of us, it's a confession of faith out of the era that flowed out of the reformation, as in the case of the 1689 London Baptist Confession or the Westminster Confession. But it also means that we are confessing, right? We are saying together, believing together, and we are looking to doctrines and truths from Scripture that we are to rest and trust in together.  
  
Two words that we often use on Theocast to describe the confessional perspective are that it is an objective perspective. It is an outside-of-us reality. As Jimmy alluded to, we're looking to Christ, who is outside of us. We're looking to God who is outside of us; we're looking to these great truths and promises of God that exist outside of us in our experience.  
  
The other thing is that to be confessional is to believe in it and hold to declarative realities - meaning they are done; they're finished. When we're looking to things and trusting in things that are outside of us and that are completed - they're finished, and they're not in jeopardy - those things transcend all circumstances; they transcend all of our emotional volatility. It matters not how I'm feeling today or how I'm processing the COVID-19 pandemic today; the truths of God remain. As Jimmy said, the righteousness of Christ for me remains; the atoning, satisfying work of Christ for me remains; my safety in Christ, my standing before God - all of those things are rock solid because they're objective, outside of me, they're declared, and they're done. That's how a confessional perspective gives us rock under our feet. As we sing in the hymn, "When all around my soul gives way, He then is all my hope and stay."  
  
That's a confessional perspective. We're looking at those things in particular. We're looking to God in Christ Jesus for us in the midst of all kinds of storms that are swirling around in our lives.  
  
Jon Moffitt: That was excellent.  
  
Marissa, hopefully, you're ready. We're going to bring you on and let you ask. Please state your first and last name, and where are you from?  
  
Marissa Namirr: I'm Marissa Namirr. I live in the Theocast group in the Facebook world. Technically, I live in Georgia.  
  
First of all, I want to thank you guys, for what you do. You bring a lot of comfort to God's people, whether we're in a pandemic or not. You're always bringing us to the gospel, so I appreciate that.  
  
I just wondered if you would talk a little bit about church discipline. At what point would you say this is a pattern and not a struggle? And at what point would you say that a Christian under church discipline or excommunicated from the church?  
  
Jon Moffitt: That is a good question. For those of you that may not know, Marissa is one of the admins on our Facebook group and absolutely crushes it. She catches things when I don't even see them coming, so thank you so much for that.  
  
That is a really good question. First of all, I know every guy is going to say that church discipline has to be dealt with patiently, and it is a very long process. I have personally seen cases where we confront a man who admits that he's openly in sin. He's even sat down with the elders and says, "I do not want to repent. I am going to pursue this." We could have, at that moment, just done church discipline. But we said, "We're going to pray for you. We're going to give you time." We gave him a month - we prayed for him, and no change came. Another month passes, and we try to meet with them individually. Praise God on month three, he repented. We didn't have to go to that final step and bring it to the congregation.  
  
Unfortunately, I've been in situations where the exact opposite is true, and you do that same process. The difference of it is if someone is unwilling to acknowledge that they are trapped in sin, unwilling to repent after multiple times of being gracious to pray with them, confront them, and show them from Scripture, if they are being self-destructive in their sin and it's publicly known that everyone around them can see that, this is the case where you have to have that conversation with them. "Do you understand that what you are doing is so damaging to yourself and to your faith? That it's destructive in nature? For you to understand how serious this, we're going to have to remove you from the table. That's step one. After that, if you still aren't willing to repent, then we're going to need to remove you from fellowship so that you understand the seriousness of this."  
  
This should never be out of anger, out of judgmentalism, or out of "how dare you." Galatians 6:1 says that when we confront someone in sin, we should be careful that we ourselves don't fall into sin. If you look at it from Scripture, you have to look at comparing everything there is about church discipline along with Galatians 6:1\. You will see that this is a long, painstaking, gracious time, and that it should not be done quickly.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: One of the clearest places that we see in Scripture where church discipline takes place in 1 Corinthians 5\. That's an extraordinary case where you have a man in the church who is committing a heinous sin - in that case, it was sexual immorality - but what you see is that it was like this flippant, I-don't-care-about-what-I' m-doing, I don't-care-about-who-I 'm-hurting kind. What you have is Paul the apostle, also the planter of that church, coming in and telling the elders - the overseers of that church - to discipline that man and to remove him from the midst of the church because of the damage. Not only is it going to cost him personally, but it's also going to cost the greater church.  
  
Like Jon said, each case has to be handled with extreme care. I don't think that there's going to be a single answer for every case. Once you start to see this high-handed, flippant, rejoicing-in-my-sin-rather-than-repenting-and-turning-to-Christ, I think that's when the elders of the church have to step in. It's not only for the soul of that individual but also for the care of the larger flock of sheep. That sin spreads like poison. In the Corinthian case, they were even openly celebrating this guy's sin. That's what Paul's great concern was.  
  
To put the question in somebody's mouth, what about the person who has that damaged conscience where they feel like they're always in sin? There is a difference between somebody who struggles with their own frame in a Romans 7 sense; somebody that's struggling with the things that they want to do, they don't do, and the things that they don't want to do, they keep on doing. Who will save them from this? We're all there. Church discipline is not about who is crushing it in the Christian life but about more so the individual who is, by their actions, going to destroy or bring harm to the body.  
  
Justin Perdue: To pick up on 1 Corinthians 5, I do think that's the clearest passage that we can go to. Jesus has some words about this in Matthew chapter 18 that are helpful for us as well. The reason that Paul rebukes the church in Corinth - and I think he's rebuking all of them - to expand on Jimmy's point for just a moment is the fact that they should have been grieved by this man's sin. Instead, in verse two of 1 Corinthians 5, Paul says, but instead, he was arrogant. They are, in one sense, seeing this as an appropriate expression of Christian freedom and they are boasting in what this man is doing, rather than being grieved and seeing that this sin would not only destroy this man; it could bring harm upon the entire church and needed to be dealt with. Paul is very clear in the context of 1 Corinthians 5 that the goal of church discipline is restoration. We all need to approach church discipline with that in view. This is not a blunt instrument to be wielded around to bludgeon people with. We want to be very precise in how we do this. We want to be gracious, we want to be careful, and we want to make sure that the point of it all - and we communicate this to the church as we try to lead the church through it - is to see this individual restored and to see this individual flourish in Christ.  
  
I think that the big difference between Marissa's question maybe pointedly, "At what point is this not like a struggling sinner any more?" Like the Romans 7 reality, the Galatians 5:17 reality, when does this become a case where church discipline is necessary? The sin needs to be clear; it needs to be demonstrable, to use some of the language Jimmy used. It's a kind of high-handed sin, it's hard-hearted, and it's unrepentant. "I'm sinning, and I just don't care. I realize it's sin. I'm not bothered. I'm not worried about it. Who are you to tell me how to live? I'm going to continue doing what I want to do. Don't care." Or it might be a posture like this: "Yeah, God's word. It seems pretty clear that this is sin. I understand that the teaching of our church and the teaching of our pastors is that this is sin, but I don't think it's a sin. I'm going to keep doing it." That's also a high-handed approach. It's this ongoing, unrepentant posture over the course of not just days or weeks, but months and months where it's just obvious that this kind of hard-hearted posture is enduring.  
  
That's just very different than the person who is grieved and bothered by his or her sin. Now, none of us are ever grieved as we should be; we were never bothered as much as we should be. But there is something in us as redeemed people that because we have the Spirit in that it's our inner man, we're bothered by our sin. There's this constant cycle that we're on where we do transgress what God says is good. We sin, and then we acknowledge it, we own it, and we repent, and we cast ourselves anew, in one sense, upon the mercy of God in Christ in submission even to the doctrine and teaching of the church.  
  
That's the easiest way that I know to answer this. It's something that I know we've practiced in our context, and it's hard. I know Jon, you have practiced this, and Jimmy, I trust you will in your church. It's always very sobering and heavy, and it's something that the Lord does use for good in the life of the church and in the lives of the saints. Even if those of us who are not being disciplined at the time, it's a sobering reality where if it were not for the grace of God, there go I and Lord may that never be me. And we're praying for our brother or sister, that he or she would be restored.  
  
I'm happy to tee one up now, Jon. This question comes from Andrew. His question is this: "How do you see Hebrews 10:25, in its immediate context of persecution, being honored in the face of the present pandemic that persecutes the church as well as the decree that has gone out in the land to not gather?"  
  
Andrew, thank you for your question. Hebrews 10:25 is the verse that says we are not to neglect the assembling of ourselves together, as is the habit of some. We've talked about this in my own local church context, and the guys we've talked about it off the mic on Theocast.  
  
My own understanding of Hebrews 25 would not be so much a situation where we are providentially hindered from gathering that's being described, but it would be the willful neglect of the corporate assembly. That's what the writer to the Hebrews is warning people against: it will not go well for you if you willfully neglect assembling together because this is how God has meant to work in your life ordinarily. This brings us back to something that Jimmy mentioned already: we understand that these are exceptional times where the government of our land is not uniquely singling out churches.  
  
It'd be one thing if the government said to continue going to theaters and bars and clubs and doing everything you normally do but don't go to church. That would be very different than what the government is doing in most of our locales in our states, where it's a broad sweeping thing where they're requesting or advising or mandating that we not gather in groups larger than 10 or 50 or whatever number.  
  
The way that we are approaching this in my church, and I know these brothers behind the mic agree, is that out of an interest to submit to our government in something that is reasonable in light of a passage like Romans 13, and also in the interest of loving neighbor and trying to help play our part in promoting public health, we have forgone gathering together for a season of time. We understand these are exceptional times. Just for context, some may be aware of this in terms of peacetime; this is the first time in 102 years that any government agency in the United States has asked people not to gather like this. The last time this happened was in 1918 with the Spanish flu pandemic. This is a once in a century kind of thing. These are exceptional times under the providence of God. What we are trusting, as I said on the podcast yesterday, is that when in these exceptional times, when we are being kept from the ordinary means, we trust that God will give extraordinary grace.  
  
We trust him to do that in these times that are exceptional. We do not understand churches to be violating Hebrews 10:25 in this really unusual season where we're providential hindered from gathering. It'll be different when things open back up, we're back to normal life, and people are neglecting the assembly. Then we would understand them to be in violation of Hebrews 10:25, and we would be encouraging and pleading with those people. You need to be with the saints on the Lord's Day.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I wanted to take this question from Jonathan. He asks, "What advice would you give pastors who are church planting when they feel discouraged about new people not coming to church? Or when the pastors feel incompetent because of a struggle with sin?" First, I'm going to yell at Jonathan for reading my mail. Second, Jonathan, you're speaking to me. Jon was just here in December, and he launched us. We launched with six families, and we've added a family since them. I realize that where we are in our culture, it's no longer a place that you go to church in order to conduct business as it used to be. It's not a socially driven thing. Us three guys have had offline conversations about this, about church planting, things like that. One of the things we continually circle back to is that it's very easy to become a slave to the tyranny of the urgent; you're always counting numbers on a given Sunday morning and feeling like, "Are we doing something wrong that we're not growing exponentially?" Frankly, I had to make a conscious decision to not really read much that is out there regarding church planting right now, because there are all sorts of nonsense out there that give you unrealistic metrics and goals and different things where honestly, you have to know your context, the neighborhood, the city, or the place where you are planting a church.  
  
For our context, according to the last census, Willmar, Minnesota has a population of only 20,000\. We're not going to see this explosive growth that you might see in a suburb, where a lot of people are moving, and perhaps they're interested in being part of the church. Don't be discouraged in the short term, but rather be faithful with the sheep that God has given you; love them, give them Christ, show them, Jesus. Trust God for the growth. This is 1 Corinthians 3 - you water, you plant, and God gives the growth. We trust God as we faithfully do the ordinary means of grace, that we feed people, and we show them Jesus that naturally. Those people will want to show other people Jesus. There's a deep call to patience. I'm really preaching to myself right now.  
  
The second part of your question is really good. It's an excellent question of when pastors feel incompetent because of a struggle with sin. Brother, that is a daily reality for me. You read some of the things in the New Testament, and you struggle with the fact that you sin, and you blow it a lot.  
  
I think being aware of your own weaknesses, failures, and shortcomings is actually very helpful because it brings you down off your own pedestal, as the pastor, to feel high and above other people. As Luther so famously said that we, as pastors, are beggars who found bread, and we are showing other people where they can find bread too. Certainly, we are not calling for a lackadaisical approach to godly character in the life of the pastor. What we are saying is, those who preach grace the best are those who have seen the wickedness of their own heart, but also the depth of God's grace as given to us in Christ Jesus.  
  
Justin Perdue: A couple of comments. One, I think the most effective preachers are the guys who are most in touch with the depth of their own corruption. We all battle sin all the time. When that battle with sin is on our minds and hearts, we're constantly having to look outside of ourselves to Christ for righteousness. That fuels gospel preaching in the pulpit because we're holding out to sinners the only hope that we know we have, and it's a good thing.  
  
One other thought: all of us have planted churches, and you deal with very small numbers early on; growth sometimes can be slow. It's always slower than we want it to be. Sometimes pastoring a small church can be its own unique kind of challenge; some of that is in our own consciences and our egos. There's a quote from a pastor named John Brown, this is back in Scotland in like 1700-1800s, and he's writing to a young minister. He says, and this is a paraphrase, "I know that you are mortified and are self-conscious about the small number of your congregation. But I promise you that on the day when you stand before the Lord, you will know that you've had enough." Meaning there is so much responsibility and weight in pastoring even a few dozen people. We ought not to confuse what in the world we're doing and be so caught up in numbers, size, metrics, and everything else. Yes, we want our churches to grow. We want to see people come to faith. We want to see people grow in the faith and grow in their knowledge, understanding, and even in their resting in Jesus. But there's a lot more to it than just how big our churches are.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Something that people ask me all the time, and this is the struggle of a church planter, is, "Are you guys exploding? Are you growing like crazy?" Something I constantly have to be mindful of is, "What if we doubled in a Sunday? What if we doubled in a week?" The amount of pressure and stress that that would bring me. Who is going to reach those people? Who is going to love those people? Who is going to care for those people? I have consciously made an effort in our church plant to voice this out to our people: we want to pray for slow and steady growth, that we don't want to go from 30 to a 180 in six months because that's going to bring all sorts of pains and problems. One of them probably being pride and ego.  
  
We want to be sensitive to the people that are in our midst. The children that are intermixed, we want to love them, serve them, and care for them well. If we're just aiming for growth, numbers, and new people to come into our midst, they're going to smell that right away. They're going to start to feel like projects and not people. They're going to start to feel like numbers and not sheep. We want to practice loving, serving, and caring for one another well, even as a small church, so that Lord willing by His grace when we grow, we can easily envelop new people into the fold. We can show them, Christ, very easily.  
  
Justin Perdue: And if you establish that kind of a culture, that culture will grow with you.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Before we jump to the next question, I'll just add that the most encouraging thing you can do for your people is to help them learn to love neighbor. In doing that, they will find joy. If the ambition of the church or the mission of the church is to see what the numerical growth can be, you will never feel a sense of community. You're always going to be looking and being disappointed. But if the mission of the church is to care and love for each other, understand that God uses the affections of each other to draw people into it and then help your church to find ways to love neighbor that's next to them - their literal neighborhoods, people at work, people they associate with at the soccer field, etc. - then they feel like they are doing ministry and they are reaching out. I was talking with a pastor this week who lives in North Dakota of a town of 400\. His church has 50 which, if you do the math on that...  
  
Justin Perdue: It's quite a ratio.  
  
Jon Moffitt: It's fantastic. You have to understand your circumstances, but most importantly, what is the mission of the church? Of course, it is defined as many people as we possibly can to care for them and bring them into rest. But ultimately, that's in God's court. That's up to Him  
  
Justin Perdue: God gives the growth. We all believe that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I just read this before we got on: in 1 Timothy 1:15, when Paul tells Timothy, "Timothy, this is a saying that you should know, it's trustworthy that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the foremost." I don't think Paul was giving false humility. He was so intimately aware of his own sin, his own failures, and his own brokenness. As you wake up every morning and you feel that, just trust that Christ, who you preach is enough for your people, is also enough for you. We all need that.  
  
Justin Perdue: And that 1 Timothy 1:15 and 16, Paul says, "I am the foremost of sinners," not, "I was, and I turned like you," I trust he's not blowing smoke or just trying to make a point. In verse 16, he says that Christ has been so patient with him. You know, Jesus has dealt with him this way so that he might display his patience and grace to all the saints, to all who believe.  
  
Even if we're models of something as pastors, it should always start there. We're modeling the fact that we are wretches who have been dealt with mercifully and patiently by Christ. We are now displaying that to all the saints who are looking on. It's like, "Hey, come partake of this." Because Christ is merciful and patient and gracious with sinners, even like me, and he will be with you.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Jonathan, if I could give you a resource, there's a fantastic little book you can buy on Kindle. I think there's a paper copy too. It's called "One-Point Preaching: A Law and Gospel Model." It's by Shawn Lazar. It's excellent on how you, as a pastor, can communicate your own sin in a way that's helpful and pointing others to Christ. Great little resource. Check it out.  
  
Justin Perdue: This question is from Edward. It's a long question, but it's all on justification and sanctification. I think we can answer this pointedly in a relatively brief way that I hope is helpful.  
  
He's acknowledging the distinction between justification and sanctification. We're looking outside of ourselves to Christ for righteousness and all those. I'm kind of summarizing and getting to the bottom part of the question. He says, "But while we are justified and thereby saved, we are still sinners, right?" Simul justus et peccator. We all agree. "If so, then is it correct to suggest in the course of the justification event, we are also infused with just a bit of righteousness that wasn't there before, that is inherent righteousness? My pastor was adamant that this is so, but I thought that our inherent goodness only comes by grace post-justification during sanctification."  
  
I'm going to start answering that question by going to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, and the Westminster Confession would have the same language. This is chapter 11, paragraph one on justification. So the answer to the question "Is there any righteousness infused into us in the event of justification?" The answer is no. "Those God effectually calls he also freely justifies. He does this, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins and accounting and accepting them as righteous. He does this for Christ's sake alone and not for anything produced in them or done by them. He does not impute faith itself, the act of believing, or any other gospel obedience to them as their righteousness. Instead, he imputes Christ's active obedience to the whole law and passive obedience in his death as their whole and only righteousness by faith. This faith is not self-generated; it is the gift of God." One of my favorite paragraphs in the entire confession. It's wonderful. It's very clear. It's very biblical that no righteousness is infused into us in the justification piece. It is completely the righteousness of Christ that is counted to us by faith.  
  
I love the language that "the righteousness of Christ is our whole and only righteousness." And it is by faith. Of course, upon conversion, we are indwelt by God's Spirit, and the sanctification process begins where, just to be very clear, God sanctifies us. If we were going to have that conversation about monergism, one worker, or synergism, two workers in sanctification, the three guys behind these microphones are all monergistic in our understanding of sanctification; God does that work. We participate in our sanctification just like we participate in life by being alive, but God does it. So we are being transformed and conformed in the image of Christ as we are sanctified.  
  
But in terms of our righteousness that would get us heaven, it is only the righteousness of Christ always. We are not justified by having righteousness infused into us in any way by God. It's the righteousness of Jesus, and that's it. Dressed in his righteousness alone, faultless to stand before the throne. That's our song, and that's our confession.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Let's go ahead and grab another one. I know we're running out of time here. There was one here by Miranda, and she asks on Facebook, and 1 Kings 8:37-40 keeps going around, "With fires, earthquakes, and CoronavirusCoronavirus going around, is this our punishment for being sinful? If we turn to God and pray, will these punishments end?" How do you respond to these people who say this is true? I believe we've got another one that was similar to that from John Richards. He asks, "If my people, which are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will heal their land."  
  
I can tell you two things. First of all, we will give a longer answer to this in the podcast next week.  
  
But yes, everything that happens is according to God's plan. There's nothing that happens outside the will of the plan of God. God is not a reactionary God, but God is a sovereign God. That being said, no. Those specific verses are written to a people that were in covenant with God. God was trying to warn them that they are going outside of the covenant, outside of the promises that they have made between Him and Israel. So those do not apply - I don't even think on a secondary or tertiary issue. I don't think you can apply those at all to the United States or any country in general because those promises were made to a specific people for a specific purpose.  
  
So if someone's using that, saying that whatever is it that they think is morality, or more people start going to church, or if they stopped doing some kind of sexual sins, etc., I don't believe that's what's going to remove the CoronavirusCoronavirus, earthquakes, or anything else. That would be my initial answer, mostly because you have to understand the context, redemptive, and historical understanding of Scripture. We even mentioned this in our podcast that came out in Proverbs, understanding what the context is and who it is applied to.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There are all sorts of nonsense flying out right now from Christian social media, and I can't even bring myself to listen to Christian radio anymore. But that's neither here nor there. As we think about different pandemics, it's interesting that people would take that view, that if my people would pray and when they want to throw these verses out. Why are we not posting that sort of thing each and every day of each and every month of each and every year? Because if it's not CoronavirusCoronavirus, it's going to be an earthquake; if it's not an earthquake, it's going to be a hurricane; if it's not a hurricane, it's going to be this or that or some other thing.  
  
On an objective level, we want to be, as a church, a people of prayer. We want to pray. We want to ask. I have prayed a daily that God would heal this globe, that He would show us His common grace in giving wisdom to doctors and people who develop vaccines and people who develop treatments, as we try to globally fight this pandemic. Nobody should be rejoicing in this pandemic. Nobody should be taking advantage of this pandemic and saying, "It's because we have this kind of people in our nation." Get that nonsense out of here. I can't even hear you right now. I can't even listen to that stuff.  
  
This is what I shared with my high school students in a devotional: I said, "Your greatest problem is not a pandemic. Your greatest issue is not getting the flu or getting CoronavirusCoronavirus. Your greatest issue is waking up and looking at yourself in the mirror and realizing that you're a sin-sick wretch, and you're in need of Christ." If CoronavirusCoronavirus is the thing that helps you realize that, then praise the Lord.  
  
At the same time, it could be anything. If it's not CoronavirusCoronavirus, it's going to be something else. We want to pray for our nation. We want to pray for all of the nations, for the world, but at the same time, let's not go out banging our Bibles on our chest and telling people to repent as they're trying to buy toilet paper at Walmart. That's not going to do any good. We should be the constant voice of hope in Christ throughout all pandemics and all peacetime.  
  
Justin Perdue: I've gotten this question from people in my own church in the last week or two, and from other people that I've run into at the CrossFit box before it got shut down. People are asking, "Is this the judgment of God? This COVID-19 pandemic? My answer, in short, is no, not directly. We can't make that statement. We can say that any kind of sickness, death, suffering, and horror are all the result of sin - and by that, I mean sin as a condition in the curse. Genesis 3; the fall. We have to be very careful to draw straight lines from particular sins to particular judgment.  
  
When we read Scripture, the only time we can do that and stand on solid footing, in my opinion, is when God has revealed it to us in the Bible. God did give us a commentary on redemptive history in how He dealt with Israel; it's called the Prophets. He did tell us specifically at points, "I am acting this way because of this transgression." So we can state that, but then we need to be really careful not to extrapolate that. That was uniquely situated with God's covenant people in Israel. Extrapolate that now to America in the year 2020.  
  
The other thing and I'll say it. Briefly, I take my cue from Jesus on this. I'm mindful of Christ's words in Luke 13, in the first few verses of that chapter, where he is talking to a Jewish audience, and he says, "You've heard about the Galileans who Pilate slaughtered, right? And mixed their blood with the sacrifices? Do you think that they were any worse than you?" He says no. If you don't repent, you'll likewise perish. He goes on to say, "Or what about those 18 people that the tower in Siloam fell on and killed them? Do you think that they were worse than you? No, they weren't. Truly, I tell, if you don't repent, you'll likewise perish." There's John 9, in the first three verses, where Jesus and his disciples come upon a blind man, and the disciples asked the question, "Jesus, who sinned? This man or his parents? That he was born blind." Christ says, "The answer is C, none of the above. Neither of them sinned so the works of God might be displayed."  
  
The point is we need to be very careful to draw those kinds of straight lines in terms of cause and effect. What it should do for all of us, to Jimmy's point, is to demonstrate to all of us the frailty of life, the reality of suffering, and point us to our need for Christ. It should cause us to long for the new heaven and the new earth in that regard.  
  
Last word, very quickly. Hebrews 11 is filled with people who are commended for their faith. We are told in the latter part of that chapter that some of them were conquerors through faith; they conquered and were delivered, but they were also told that some of them through faith were killed, and they were sawn in two. It was clear that God had purposed in both the conquering and in the death and suffering. We can take confidence in that God will always do what He means to do. We are called to trust Him. We just need to be very careful about overstepping and speculating, but doing that with the "Thus sayeth the Lord" stamp on it. We do all kinds of bad when we start to go to those directions. All right. I'm stopping John. Yeah. Thank you for letting me talk.  
  
Jon Moffitt: If you want to take us over to our members' podcast, we'll keep answering questions. There's no way we're going to get to them all, but we're going to try.  
  
Justin Perdue: Thank you for listening to Theocast. We appreciate all the great questions that we've received. We're sorry that we have not been able to get to all, but just a few of them. We could talk about this stuff for hours.  
  
We are now headed over to our members' podcast. If you don't even know what that is, you can go to our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com and learn more information about our total access membership. We still offer a 14-day free trial on that membership so you can kick the tires and get used to what all that contains. It does include, amongst other content, this additional podcast that we release weekly for our membership.  
  
We hope to see you over there. We're headed there momentarily. We will talk with you again next week.  
  
[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-qa-church-discipline-fruit-andmore-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-qa-church-discipline-fruit-andmore/)

---

### MEMBERS: Legal Preaching (Transcript)

*Published: April 15, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-legal-preaching-transcript*
*Tags: legal preaching, Legalism, legalistic preaching, paul washer, Pietism, pietistic preaching, preaching, reformed, reformed preaching*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-legal-preaching/)

**Jon Moffitt:** Welcome to the members' podcast. For those of you that have been listening, if this is your first one, we're glad that you're here. We hope you enjoy. Just to give you a heads up, this is the post-conversation. This is where Justin and I are going to talk to you as if you are in the studio, and we are no longer on air. It's just some afterthoughts. To be frank, sometimes, we have clarity after the podcast is over, and we don't really have time or energy to go back and record that podcast again. So we save our good stuff for later, not on purpose - it just kind of happens. That's where we're at today.

I want to say thank you for supporting our ministry, and I mean that wholeheartedly. Without our membership, we do not have enough donations to cover our expenses, and we are working on many things. It might be out by now, but for those of you that don't know, here's a little secret to all of our members - we're going to start letting you know about stuff before we let other people know. - but we do transcripts now. 

You may think that, "Oh, I listen to the podcast. Why would I want to read it?" Well, there are two reasons why transcripts are important. First of all, you may not know, but there are 45 million Americans who are hearing impaired. They cannot listen to podcasts, so they would not be able to interact with Theocast - only through our written material. I know that many of you have benefited from the podcast. Now you can share this with communities. If you are aware of someone who is not able to hear but would like to read this material, you can now share that. 

Two, transcripts also allows us to then take this material and put it into books to use for further advancing of this message. It's already out. So if you go to the website, go to the episode and look down at the bottom of the page where it will say transcripts. You can read and share those. We've got some other ideas coming; maybe some live interactions with Theocast through Zoom or something like that. You never know. I may randomly send out an email and say I've got six slots for a conversation on Law-gospel. There will be an hour and 45-minute conversation. Who wants in? You just may never know. Those are coming. Randomness from Theocast is the best. 

Let's get back into this topic, which is an important one. I'm going to talk a little bit about my transition, which will lead to some helpful conversations. 

I remember the first time I read R. Scott Clark's article on legal preaching. I had already come out of it. I was no longer in it, but I couldn't put my finger on it. When I read that article, I thought that's the best way to describe it. It's called legal preaching. And it is the intention of the preacher to really get Christians into shape. It's says, "Listen, you need to act better." 

The biggest distinction between who I was in my preaching and who I am now is I'm not trying to get people into shape, but I am actually trying to change the way they think - the way they think about God, the way they think about the gospel, and the way they think about the Bible. Every Sunday, I find that it is my mission to take their eyes off of themselves and their own righteousness - and I don't care if it's a legalistic person or a person who's stuck in sin. My position is that I'm trying to change their view off of themselves and onto Christ. It is harder than it sounds because someone who has had a heavy diet of legalism or legal preaching doesn't want that. They want to hear about them. It's narcissism on steroids.

That's something I wish I would've said in the other podcast, but hey, membership podcast bonus.

**Justin Perdue:** I would agree with you. My ammo in preaching is very similar. I'm thinking every week about how do I can take people's gaze off of themselves and fix their gaze upon Christ? How can I extol the mercy, the grace, the power, and the sufficiency of Christ anew to my people from the text? How do I take away any confidence that they could ever have in themselves? I want to explode that. I want to erode that. But then I want to put the rock of Jesus Christ under our feet every week. 

It's a fundamental shift in how we view the Christian life. And what I want to do in extolling the excellencies of Jesus is to allow that and help people see how that is not only their assurance, safety, and their peace, but how that is what propels them forward in the Christian life.

It's not like being berated, scolded, threatened, and being unsettled that should motivate them. It's actually being told that they're safe and that Christ is enough that will drive us and propel us and carry us forward. It's a fundamental reorientation of how we view everything.

It is hard as a preacher for our own sakes. You and I have had to walk through these shifts personally. We're pastoring people who are walking through massive shifts in their theology and their thinking because it's nothing like this kind of legal mindset that we've been discussing in terms of legal preaching on the regular podcasts, and we're continuing to think about now. 

I know you were going to talk a little bit about your own transition. Do you want to do that now? I may talk a little bit about mine even. 

**Jon Moffitt:** I'll definitely go back to that. I don't know if I mentioned this in the regular podcast or a conversation. We've been talking a lot this morning, but I can remember being in church, and I was new to reformed theology. I was listening to a lot of reformed guys that were very popular at the time who were taking over YouTube and were strong in the pulpit. I was impressed by their love of God's sovereignty and Calvinism. I just had this heavy dose of legal preaching. I didn't know it at the time, but it was legal preaching.

Not all of their sermons are legal preaching. There were some great gospel sermons that I loved, but I would say the majority of my diet was legal preaching. When I got in the pulpit, I sounded angry and mean, and the tone was I was looking down upon people and scolding them for not respecting God's holiness. I was scolding them for not respecting sin, for not seeing how horrendous their sin was, and how dare they hold onto their sin and in the face of God? I wasn't handing them grace. That's the candy. That's the dessert that comes at the end. I'm going to pound this down into you. It's almost like the parent: "Once you finish your dinner, then I'll give you the dessert. But if you don't finish your dinner..."

**Justin Perdue:** Once you've demonstrated an adequate level of concern, an adequate level of discipline and devotion, you're contrite enough, and you've been utterly devastated by the holiness of God, then I'll talk to you about grace.

**Jon Moffitt:** But then it never comes. It's like it's promised, but it's never there. The false sense that I had is if I get these congregants, and even myself, to respect God and his holiness, then they will truly demonstrate it in their lives. The struggle was sin. The bondage of sin was a lack of dedication. It was a lack of trying. It was a lack of effort. The guys and ladies that were struggling with the same sin for years and years, I thought if I could just establish holiness and the fear of God in them... God's love and mercy was on the back burner. I was saying, "God's love got you into this thing. How dare you respond to God's love like that?"

**Justin Perdue:** We want people to fear the Lord, and we want people to know God as He has revealed himself. By all means. We preach His holiness, His righteousness, His justice, and all those things. We must preach the first use of the Law - we preach the Law and all of its holiness and righteousness, but we do God a tremendous disservice when we only preach holiness and not grace. Or when we only preach holiness and righteousness, and not mercy and steadfast love. How does God describe Himself? Exodus 34:6-7, "The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, who will by no means clear the guilty." If you don't present all of that, then you are not accurately presenting the Lord. 

What makes God remarkable? Allah is frightening. But what makes the Lord unique is the fact that he is holy and righteous, and at the same time, He is full of mercy and grace and steadfast love to sinners through Christ. If you're not preaching that, then what are you doing?

A rabbi can get up and terrify people with the holiness of God in an Orthodox Jewish setting. A Muslim teacher can get up and say things about the Law that will terrify everybody. We're not just simply trying to scare people with the holiness of the Lord; we're trying to say God is holy, and He is gracious. Let me tell you about His grace in Christ, where He saves people in perfect harmony with His holiness because Christ has accomplished it for you. 

As I was transitioning into Calvinism, some of these things that we talk about on Theocast were apparent to me pretty quickly because my church upbringing was just really bad. I had a lot of wrestling for a long time. But then I, like anybody, could fall off the other side of the horse, and did at points, with respect to the sovereignty of God or the glory of God - God defending His own honor and vindicating His own holiness and all that. It was important for me to be reminded at points and to be struck by things in the text. 

But part of God's glory is inextricably tethered, not just to His holiness but also to His grace and mercy. If I'm not talking about both, I'm wrong. I'm misrepresenting God and giving people the wrong idea. I think it's interesting that if we seem to get this lopsided presentation of God as though He's angry with His church.

**Jon Moffitt:** God is angry with the wicked every day.

**Justin Perdue:** He is disappointed and that He is frustrated and that we need to get a better handle on his holiness and righteousness. But again, his holiness and righteousness pop off the page when we consider them next to his grace and mercy. 

**Jon Moffitt:** You and I both received the question, "Can we disappoint God?" The question in Ephesians when he says, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit." In your position as a child adopted in union with Christ, you cannot disappoint God because it is not ever established by you. It was always established by Christ through faith by grace. You, in your standing before God, cannot disappoint Him. Now in your responsibility to love your brother, love your neighbor, and in preaching the gospel, can you do it in such a way that is contrary to the nature of God? Absolutely. This is why we repent constantly. This is why we confess our sins. But you cannot collapse the two. Your position and union is not the same as your obligation. It is not connected. The danger is if you connect those two, you will create legalism and Law. That's also what's called pietism.

**Justin Perdue:** You said pietism. I didn't say this on the regular podcast - I thought about it at multiple points, but I didn't want to constantly say pietism - but legal preaching is inherently pietism. Pietism produces legal preachers because, as we have been clear over the course of a long time, it's a constant refocusing on the need to look at and examine your heart, your mind, your affections, your disciplines, your performance, your obedience, your righteousness - it is saying you need to concern yourself with these things. 

It's not that Christ isn't preached; don't hear us say that Christ is not preached by a legal preacher, but the emphasis is very clearly on the Christian and not Christ. Christ is in the background. He's the backdrop because He has made all this possible. We're trusting in him, and we're all sinners - we intellectually understand that. But now what we really need to move on to is focusing on ourselves and our understanding of God's holiness or our disciplines, or our own obedience and performance. If we're not concerned enough about those things, then we need to be concerned about our standing. Otherwise, it's not going to go well for us. Pietism is inherently a part of this conversation; it's inextricably linked to legal preaching. I think that needs to be said. Our members are certainly going to be aware of that category, and maybe we should've said it in the regular podcast.

**Jon Moffitt:** I'll share another part of my story. For those of you who are new, please hear me: I am not here to question these men's motives. I'm not here to question their holiness or even their ability to preach the gospel. This is just a story that's true. 

I was a youth pastor in Utah, and my entire world was being turned upside down. My father, who had been my pastor for 18 years, had passed away, and I was coming out of a very fundamentalist background, from heavy legalism. One day, someone sent me a sermon by Paul Washer. I remember I had a pounding migraine, football was on, I had my laptop open, and I decided to watch it, and I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

I had never heard anyone preach like that. I have never even heard of the guy. It just shook me to the core that this guy was saying what I think because I was in a fundamentalist Baptist background. I felt like people weren't taking the gospel seriously, and it was all Law. What Washer said really resonated with me.

I began to listen more of his famous sermons online, and it endeared my heart to reformed theology. I didn't know it at the time. I didn't know what he was actually saying. I started reading John MacArthur and started listening to John Piper. Between the two of them, I started learning about expository preaching. I heard someone speak positively about John Calvin, which I'd never heard someone speak positively about John Calvin before. Then I realized that Spurgeon, who all the Baptists love, was a Calvinist. All of a sudden, I'm studying Calvinism, I started reading the 1689 London Baptist Confession, and I started reading more of the reformers. Before I knew it, these guys pulled me out of the confusion and gave me a love and respect for the reformers and Calvinism.

John Piper specifically helped me understand the glory of God's sovereignty. John MacArthur gave me a love for expository preaching - preaching the truth, upholding the truth, no compromising in the truth. Unfortunately, I also learned a lot about lordship salvation, and my legal preaching started to get fuel from many of these. These three men probably had the biggest impact on my life. That's when I began to see the legalistic preachings. 

When I would hear them uphold reformers, I decided to stop reading John MacArthur, John Piper, and listening to Paul Washer, and I started to read the actual reformers, which then led me into the Confessions. That's when I discovered people like Michael Horton, who was saying things like Law-gospel distinction, covenant theology, and redemptive-historical understanding. I started to read Vos. My language expanded past modern-day preachers into the older. Every time Michael Horton would quote somebody, I would take a pen out, write down that book, and then I go find it and buy it. I read the book. I was glad Horton said it, but I wanted to know where he got it from. My library expanded. Some of those guys are hard to read if you haven't read it - if you've never read Vos and you have struggling sleeping at night, just go read Vos, and you'll go to sleep pretty quick.

What I'm saying is this podcast today is bred out of my own experience of being a legal preacher.

**Justin Perdue:** I was not preaching regularly in that same time that you were. I was preaching in the church where I was before, but I was not the main preacher.

 My experience is a little bit different than yours because I grew up in a liberal environment where it was liberal theologically, but yet it was still very legalistic and moralistic with respect to how we were to live. The focus is essentially on you because doctrine doesn't matter. So just focus on yourself and be good, and all will go well for you. There were still many kinds of Victorian notions of morality that were basically preached as Christianity. That was a little bit frustrating, to say the least. 

When I encountered Calvinism, it was, in God's providence, an interesting season in my life in terms of even the things that I was given to read. I was reading some of the contemporary men that you mentioned and listening to sermons from guys in the Together for the Gospel arena and The Gospel Coalition world. I was also reading Luther, Augustine, Calvin, and BB Warfield.

Even from a contemporary perspective, I was also reading RC Sproul as much as I was reading anybody else. I had this reformed, covenantal, Law-gospel stuff influencing me alongside the contemporary Calvinistic evangelical stuff. I was wrestling with all of my transition to Calvinism.

Even as I was living in the heart of the Calvinistic evangelical world for a while, I think I was wrestling with a number of these categories already. I don't know that I was ever a full-blown legal preacher. I do know that even for myself in the earliest years of CBC, and when I used to preach before in the church in DC where I was, I definitely still had this notion of transforming people's thinking. I was shaming them in some ways that they don't think appropriately about God or even the scandal of the gospel. Whereas now, I don't think any of us grasp the scandal of the gospel as we should; I want to try to help us see how marvelous Christ is and how glorious the grace of God is. It's just a very different thing. 

Rather than, "You need to get in gear and see all this the way that you should," now it's more of, "Guys, this is incredible. Let's consider Christ together and rejoice in what the Lord has done for him and us." The tone and the tenor of my ministry and my preaching are different in recent years. 

I'm mindful of what Thomas Boston's friends said about him. Thomas Boston is who many may know as a part of the Marrow Controversy situation in the Church of Scotland in the 1700s. He wrote substantial footnotes to The Marrow of Modern Divinity. As he was crystallizing in his theology in a very similar theology to what we would have here at Theocast, Thomas Boston's friends talked about there being a tincture in his preaching that was evident, a tincture that tints and colors and flavors the whole thing. There was a tincture in his preaching that was unmistakable, and it was just flavored with the grace of God and the mercy of Christ.

I can't speak for certain, but I hope that that's what's happening in my own preaching. I know that you would say the same if people said that there is just a tincture about this guy's preaching that it is full of the grace of God and the mercy of Christ for sinners. That's what we're striving for. That's different than legal preaching, 

**Jon Moffitt:** Sinclair Ferguson - I would describe his ministry this way. RC Sproul's sermons were riddled with the gospel. Michael Horton. These are men that I respect, and they understand Law-gospel. 

I need to say one thing as we close this down: I'm not saying that Washer, Piper, and MacArthur - I'm not saying they're legalistic in everything that they say, so please hear me. It's just more of the tone. Go listen to Shepherd's Conference. Go listen to T4G. With an open mind and open heart, listen. What are they trying to lead you to, and how are they doing it? Maybe you'll begin to see what we're talking about and maybe not. The biggest thing is if those sermons are leading you to rest in Christ, and you find a greater affection outside of yourself, then praise God. That's what's most important. 

**Justin Perdue:** Those men that we've mentioned, in our contemporary setting, absolutely preach the gospel, and they say so many things that are true and helpful. What we're trying to point out are the things that they say that are less than helpful and seem to be inconsistent with even their presentation of Christ in the gospel. Those inconsistencies can be damaging, especially when a guy has a large following and a high profile. 

We're just trying to just shed some light on some of this and are grateful for those men and how the Lord has used him in our own lives. We are certainly aware of the fact that we have blind spots, and we don't get it all right either. We hope people deal charitably with us in our error. 

**Jon Moffitt:** Longer podcast today. Hopefully, it was beneficial. I felt like I opened up my closet and let you all see the hidden skeletons I have in there. Hopefully, it was an encouragement to you.

We are always encouraged to hear from you, so please call in and leave us a voicemail, let us know how we've been of help to you. That one helps us, and it also encourages us to know how to keep moving forward with the different topics that we choose. Believe it or not, we choose our topics based upon our listenership. We do hear what you are concerned with and your feedback, and we hope that that helps us to know what to talk about. 

We will see you next week, Lord willing.

[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/legal-preaching-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/legal-preaching/)

---

### Legal Preaching (Transcript)

*Published: April 15, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/legal-preaching-transcript*
*Tags: legal preaching, Legalism, legalistic preaching, paul washer, Pietism, pietistic preaching, preaching, reformed, reformed preaching*

[**Listen to Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/legal-preaching/)

Jon Moffitt: Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we are going to be discussing legal preaching; preaching that tends to remove hope, establish fear, and goes after the lazy Christian. We have a long discussion about the distinction between the Law and the gospel, where legal preaching emphasizes Law in almost every passage; the gospel seems to be a byproduct of the way in which we enter into the Christian life.

In the membership podcast, we talk a little bit more about our personal lives: our journey through legal preaching, and how it is that we discovered reformed theology or Calvinism, how I personally began to struggle with legal preaching and how I became set free from that. At the end of it, we talk about the purpose of the pulpit ministry. What should preachers be establishing - fear or hope? We hope you enjoy the conversation. 

This is hopefully an encouragement to pastors and potential pastors out there, and even those who are trying to identify why it is they walk away from a sermon and don't feel encouraged. They feel as if hope was removed and not established. 

Theocast, our ministry, is designed to establish hope and rest. As Christ says, "come to me, and I will give you rest." - legal preaching seems to do the exact opposite of that. I'll just read an article to you - and we'll have this in our show notes so you can go to the show notes section of our episode and get the link there.

He says, "The symptoms of a legal preacher are these: a legal preacher is a preacher who majors in the Law to the neglect of the gospel. In practice, he preaches nothing but Law. He thinks that mentioning Jesus periodically or even regularly means that he is not a legal preacher, and he cannot imagine that people are concerned about the tenor of his preaching because he doesn't see anything wrong with it. It's the sort of preaching he heard as a young man, and it's the sort of preaching he heard in seminary. It's the sort of preaching he admires in other preachers."

He is describing me at my very early age - as I graduated from college, I was a legal preacher. I remember telling one of the pastors I served with that I felt like people will not appropriately understand, love, and respect God if they don't fear him. I didn't mean fear in the sense in which the Psalmist believes to be fear - not fear as in dread, but fear as in respect. I wanted people to dread God because if they dread and feared Him, then they would obey. They would live holy and sanctified lives. 

He says here, "A legal preacher is a preacher who majors on the Law to the neglect of the gospel." I would even go on saying that they turn every passage of Scripture into Law, even when it is a gospel passage. An example of this was sent to me recently by a Theocast listener. And the question was, "What do you think of this?" It was ten ways to abide in God's love; they were basically ten laws. If you do these ten things, you will abide in God's love. How do you turn such a wonderful passage of abiding in the love of God into Law? Unfortunately, this article or this sermon did that. 

Legal preaching, where something is meant to establish hope - "God loves you, remain in that." turns it into "This is how you earn." They didn't say earn, but said it in another way. If you do these ten things, you abide in God's Law. 

Justin Perdue: Just like we've talked about John 15 - abiding in Christ - and the message there is one of hoping, trusting, and resting in Christ. "Apart from me, you can do nothing." It's about union with Christ by faith. We turn that into something identical to what you just said: here are the seven ways that you can keep yourself in Christ, or here are the seven steps to abiding in Christ. It ends up becoming more of an emphasis on our actions, discipline, and diligence versus the grace of God, the mercy of God, the efficacy of the work of Christ, and the sufficiency of the work of Christ in the place of the Christian.

I want to pick up on the turning-every-passage-into-Law thing that you just said. I think you're exactly right. Again, we're not the first to make these observations, but we agree with observations that others have made and have made similar observations ourselves. 

You just said it: you turn every passage of Scripture into Law, even the passages that are gospel. This is because there is a collapsing of the categories of Law and gospel in the mind and understanding of the legal preacher. This is not a podcast about Law-gospel distinction, but we can't escape that reality when we're talking about legal preaching. 

The legal preacher does not understand the distinction between the Law and the gospel. For some of those who are new with us, when we talk about Law, we mean anything in Scripture that is imperative that tells us do this and you will live. That's Law. Do this, and you will have favor with God. That's Law. Anything that tells us about what has been done for us by Christ to be received simply by trusting him is gospel. So "do" is Law, "done" is gospel. 

The legal preacher does not understand that distinction. What he ends up doing is taking every passage and turning it into an imperative to the Christian of what the Christian must be doing, must be applying or how diligent the Christian must be. There's always this kind of exacting, threatening tone to it that if you need to do this or else. What that ends up doing obviously is robbing the believer of any hope of assurance, peace, and rest. If I'm not doing my part, or I'm not taking this seriously enough, I should be afraid and I should be concerned. This collapsing of Law and gospel ends up stealing assurance, and robbing people of hope and peace, because we never can just allow people to bask and rest in the grace of God.

I don't mean to take us in a different direction, but I know this is where we're going to go eventually. The fear for the legal preacher is that if he lingers too long on what Christ has done for the Christian and does not give the Christian imperatives, exhortations, things to do, then the listener - the Christian in the pew - might misunderstand him and think that there is no obligation or duty associated with the Christian life. 

That's a big thing - this notion that we must uphold obligation and we must uphold duty all the time lest people misunderstand it.

You and I would agree that there are duties and obligations in the Christian life. But what Christ has done is always primary; our identity in Christ is always primary, and our duty is derived from our identity, not the other way around. That's where those things are blended together or flipped - it seems, in the mind of the legal preacher, that our identity is determined by what we do, not what we do is determined by our identity. 

Jon Moffitt: Just to add a thought to the obligation - and we could even call this obligation preaching or legal preaching - is that they have a fear that if they don't keep this in front of the believer's life, they will become lazy. The laziness of the believer is what they're going after. We at Theocast have been accused of not being concerned over sanctification, not being concerned over obedience, and the other terms antinomians throw out there.

This is what I would say is an overcorrection. Can someone preach in such a way that people don't see the obligation to obey? Absolutely. But you can't overcorrect to the side where you are so afraid of grace. You only preach Law; you have to trust grace. 

In this article, he says something towards the end, which I think is a fair observation that many people have when it deals with Law-gospel preaching. He says - and this is the accusation against the Law-gospel preachers - that they don't seem to be nearly interested in sanctification and obedience as they should be; that certainly those fellows aren't as interested in it as he is. He suspects those fellers of just being lazy. That would be, I would say, many creatures - and I'm not going to name names, I'm going to let you identify these as you will. But a man who gets up in the pulpit and he's angry at Christians because they aren't living as dedicated, as separate, and as passionate about obedience and holiness as he is, he will really hone in on holiness. They are going to just preach the holiness of God. I agree that the greater view of the holiness of God, the greater the grace of God becomes. I couldn't agree more. The greater the Law, the harder the Law. 

The other day I preached about the wrath of God, the cup that Jesus drank. One of my deacons came up to me and said, "I couldn't wait for you to get to the gospel." What he was saying was that I was stepping down so hard on his throat with the Law. He was so suffocated. By the time I poured the gospel out, he couldn't gobble it up fast enough. Well, that is Law-gospel preaching where you need to feel the weight of the Law so bad that no one can obey it. Who is going to relieve me from this body of death? As Paul says in Romans 7\. There's a difference between preaching the Law. Justin and I preach the Law every week. You have to because otherwise, you can't have a prayer of confession. Prayer of confession is not necessary if you don't preach Law.

Justin Perdue: That's exactly right. I have a lot of thoughts. I'm going to try to do this in a way that's clear and systematic. I want to touch on some things that you're talking about, and also circle back around to some other stuff that we may have already talked about with respect to the Law in general.

I completely agree that if you're going to be biblical or reformed in your preaching, you must preach the Law rightly. That would mean preaching the Law in its particular uses; the first and the third use, depending on who's numbering them and what categories you have there. We'll talk about that more as this show goes on.

With respect to the legal preacher, I have heard this a number of times where somebody will make the statement with respect to the Bible: "Well, it's all gospel. The whole thing is gospel." No, it's not. You'll even hear people say, "Even in the Mosaic Covenant, it's all of grace." Yes, in that the Mosaic Law is given underneath the banner of the Covenant of Grace high level. But the Mosaic Law, as we've said a number of times on this show, is a reissuing of the covenant of works with respect to its requirements. We can't call the Law gospel in that respect.

But you hear guys trying to do and say that, and these are guys who even would claim to be reformed in their theology. That's just an inaccurate, imprecise representation of Scripture. It's not all gospel. There are a number of passages that are not gospel at all.

The Law, as it stands on its own, is a damning and condemning reality. Like you just said, Jon, it's important that we preach the Law in its first use every week - that God is holy and righteous and requires perfect fulfillment and obedience to his holy and perfect Law. If we do not render that unto God, we stand condemned. Then we give people the gospel, and we point them to Christ Jesus, their Savior. A lot of times, this has been my experience, too. The third use of the Law is the Law as the perfect guide for the life of the Christian. A lot of times the legal preacher does not ever really preach the first use of the Law. He doesn't ever preach the holiness of the Law: you cannot do this, Jesus has fulfilled it for you, trust Christ and have peace with God. He does not do that, as he should. Then he preaches the third use, which is not threatening. It's the Law. Calvin would even say that the Law is our kind adviser in Christ Jesus, but instead, that legal preacher preaches that third use as though it's the first one.

That's my observation that I've said a number of times. You preach the third use as though it's the first use. You preach it in this threatening tone like you better do this, or you'll be condemned, or you're not really a Christian. Brother, I don't think you've understood the Law in its uses appropriately.

Paul in 1 Timothy 1:8 says we uphold the Law as long as it's used lawfully. Exactly. I don't think the legal preacher does that. It creates a lot of confusion, is so damaging, and it robs people of assurance and peace because they end up thinking if they don't do an appropriate job of conforming themselves to the word of God, if they don't have an appropriate level of desire or affection or discipline or whatever, then they need to be afraid. Anybody with a brain and a conscience is going to say, "I don't know where my hope stands."

I have a few other thoughts. The issue with laziness is a thing. You brought this up: the legal preacher seems to have in his crosshairs all the time the lazy Christian. It seems to me that so many sermons from legal preachers about holiness are preached with the assumption that everybody listening to the sermon does not want to be holy. It's the assumption that everybody listening does not want to be godly. 

Jon Moffitt: Let me interject there: that they don't have the level and the intensity that they should. They think their intensity level needs to be higher. 

Justin Perdue: You're right. Maybe it's not that people don't want to be holy or godly at all, but they don't want it badly enough. 

Jon Moffitt: They're compromising.

Justin Perdue: There's this sinking suspicion in the mind of the legal preacher that the audience really loves ungodliness and really just wants to be comfortable in their sin, rather than wanting to love God with all their hearts, wanting to obey the Lord, and wanting to be holy. Brother, who are you talking to and who do you understand your audience to be? In my own local church context, for example, I don't know anybody in my church who wouldn't sincerely say, "Yes, I want to be holy. I want to be godly. I want to love God with all my heart. I want my heart to be thrilled in worship." The problem for all of us is that we want that in our inner man, and at the same time, we battle against sin and our own corruption.

I think in the mind of the legal preacher, there's not an appropriate understanding of the sinner-saint reality either; that Romans 7 is in the Bible; Galatians 5:17 is in the Bible. Where we're told that the spirit and the flesh wage war against each other and we don't do what we want to do. That seems to escape the mind of the legal preacher as well. It's our observation that that laziness in the lazy Christian is always in the crosshairs. What you end up doing is scolding, berating, and unsettling people in order to motivate them toward holiness. It's like if these people are going to be sufficiently motivated for holiness and godliness, I need to get up here, unsettle them, and light a fire under them so that they'll be motivated to pursue it. If I don't do that, and if I just continue to preach Christ, they will be content and apathetic in their current state.

Jon Moffitt: They are removing hope in the same way we would remove hope. I don't have a problem with removing hope when it comes to a false hope, meaning if you're trusting in your profession - you came forward at the end of a service and you asked Jesus into your heart - the sinner's prayer, if you're trusting in your baptism, or if you're putting your trust in any kind of action that you performed. 

Most of the time it's the Southern Baptist world - they said the sinner's prayer, and that's what they're going after. I can't tell you how many church members I had that said that they've been saved like 700 times. "I really mean it this time." If they're going to go after those people and removing their hope, I don't have a problem with that because that is not really hope. That's not a very solid foundation. I don't have a problem walking over with a hammer, popping that glass, and shattering it saying, "Listen, you don't want to stand on that. That's not where you want to stand." What you do is you put your hand on their shoulder and you lead them over to the corner foundation of Christ and say, "This is where you want to be." You don't lead them over to legalism. You don't lead them over to Law. You don't leave them over to obligation because that too is not the foundation that we stand on.

I'm not calling these guys heretics, and I'm definitely not saying they don't understand the gospel. But when it comes to the everyday Christian life and how it is that I am to respond in holiness to the Father, you can either motivate people through fear or you can motivate them through hope and love.

I want to use this as an example: the apostle Paul was a preacher. He would write letters that would be read on his behalf because he couldn't be there to preach. If you go and read these passages - and Ephesians is a great example of this - he begins by identifying himself when writing to the church of Ephesus. Ephesians 1:2, "Grace to you and peace from our Father and Lord Jesus Christ." He begins this way. As a matter of fact, that same phrase he begins within Philippians, he begins in Colossians, and then he ends the same way. He ends the letter with "grace and peace to you."

He is not establishing fear, he is not establishing dread, and he does give Law because the gospel is not sweet unless there's Law and he does give obligation. He says, "Listen, you need to consider how to build one another up in love. You need to protect the unity." But all of that is centered from the position of grace. He establishes hope and then he presents obligation. He says in Ephesians 4:1, "You need to walk worthy in the manner of which you have been called." What is that? The response to that is love. So we are not saying there's no obligation for the believer. There is obligation, but that obligation is not what determines whether your hope is established or not. It's a byproduct of hope. It is not the establishment of hope. There's a difference. Byproduct versus establishment. 

Justin Perdue: Thinking about the pattern of the apostles. The letter to the Philippians pops into my mind where there are certainly exhortations throughout that letter. We all are familiar with Philippians 2 where we're exhorted toward humility and we're pointed to the model of Christ who humbled himself to the point of death - even death on a cross. And then in Philippians 3:1, Paul says, "To write the same things to you is no trouble for me and is safe for you." He goes on at that point to remind the Philippians that a righteousness according to the Law is nothing. Paul talks about it in his own experience: that he had a righteousness according to the Law that would surpass practically anybody's, but he considers that as trash when he considers the righteousness that is according to faith in Jesus Christ that God gives us.

Throughout the epistles, these things are just peppered in: we're talking about humility, we're talking about how we live together as a body, and let me remind you of where your righteousness comes from. The Romans example that we use all the time is when Paul is encouraging the Roman saints. He talks constantly about their identity and their union with Christ. I agree with you, Jon, that if we're going to exhort believers in the church, and we're going to give imperatives - which we absolutely need to do - we need to do it in the way that the apostles do it. We need to do it by establishing first identity and status as justified, united to Christ, and then talk about how the redeemed live.

When I was preaching through 1 John - and we could do a Dazed and Confused on 1 John sometimes about how misunderstood that letter is, because it's often upheld as like the great litmus test of salvation. "Measure yourself up against these standards to determine whether or not you're saved." I don't think that's John's aim in that letter. He's writing to a church that's been bombarded by false teaching and apostasy, and he's comforting the redeemed. When I was preaching through that letter constantly, John's posture here is not to smoke out the lazy Christians or to smoke out the nominal Christians; his posture is to comfort the saints.

For example, he'll talk about the confessions that believers make, that Jesus came in the flesh and that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God. He'll talk about practicing righteousness. He'll talk about loving the brothers. His tone and his posture is not so much "You better love the brothers and if you don't love the brothers sufficiently, you're not in Christ." He'll say, "Hey guys, we're the redeemed and the redeemed love each other." It's just a very different posture. "Let's do what the redeemed do." That's what you and I are saying. Herald to the saints: trust Christ, you are righteous, you've been reconciled with God; you have peace with God in Christ through your union with Christ by faith; now let's live like the redeemed live, and here's how we're to live together. It's very different than "you better live this way or you're going to just prove yourself to be an unbeliever."

Like you said, one establishes hope and one robs people of any possibility of hope. One is a good motivator for life in the church; the other is a very poor motivator for life in the church and the Christian life in general. It's a world of difference for those two perspectives.

One last thought: if the legal preacher, in his mind, really thinks that the people he's preaching to are at best lazy or are at worst unconverted - which it seems that that's the case when you listen to many of these certain runs in these guys preach - brother, you seem to be thinking that you're preaching to an unbelieving audience. If that's the case, then why in the world are you just lambasting people with Law and never giving them Christ? If you really think that these people might not be Christians, then preach the first use of the Law in all of its holiness, in all of its righteousness, and all of its terror outside of Christ, and then give people Jesus. "Let me tell you about the Savior. Let me tell you about the one who has fulfilled the Law for you. Let me tell you about the one who took upon himself all of your law breaking, corruption, guilt, and shame, and drank the cup of God's wrath and atoned for your sin. Let me tell you about absolution, forgiveness, mercy, grace, and peace that are found in Christ by faith alone. Let me tell you about that.

But that's not how it goes. You just ended up getting a guy up there yelling at people about how they're supposed to live and that is gospel-less so often. It might be a tip of the cap to the gospel, or some sort of acknowledgment of the gospel or maybe an assumption of it, but they're not preaching Law and gospel in its fullness to people that they seem to think might not even be Christians. That blows my mind a little bit. 

Jon Moffitt: If you understand Calvinism, or if you consider yourself to be a Calvinist, you have to wonder if they are preaching to the unbeliever they do know that the only way in which they will be converted is through the gospel. We don't know the tension of every preacher, but sometimes you feel like they are preaching to the unbelieving crowd. If you are preaching to a crowd that is openly denying Jesus - they know the gospel and they don't care and don't want to believe, then you can preach some pretty heavy condemnation upon because they know the truth and they're denying the truth. Paul and Jesus bring some pretty heavy condemnation on them. But if you're dealing with people who are trapped in sin or confused, or I would say uneducated - they're weak in their faith and you bring Law to them and you don't bring the gospel... Gospel is what bolsters our faith. Gospel is what grounds us. This is why Paul says, "I want to come to you and preach Christ and him crucified and Christ and him crucified is not the gospel unless it comes to you by grace." If you are giving all the facts of Christ's life and you disassociate it from grace, or you never conclude that these are yours by grace, then you're not really preaching the gospel. If you're hearing preaching and it feels like the preacher is angry, he is constantly warning you about your attitude and your actions towards God and you walk away concluding, "I'm not sure he offered me hope. I think he offered me fear. That if I don't get myself in line that I should..." They'll use verses like, "Examine yourself to see if you're of the faith," and what they mean by examining is they immediately point to your actions. That is not what Paul means. 1 Corinthians - they got the gifts wrong, they got love wrong, they got sexuality wrong, they got idol worship problem. They got it all wrong.

What does Paul do? He comes in and he reestablishes their assurance in love, reestablishes the gospel and says, "Listen, you've misunderstood the gospel. You've misunderstood grace. You're boasting in it." He corrects some antinomianism with the gospel. He opens it with one, I'm not ashamed of the gospel. Number two, I want to come and preach the gospel to you. 

Justin Perdue: An observation along the same lines of what you were just saying is that a lot of times, the legal preacher seems to be very dissatisfied with where his people are. He seems to be frustrated with them constantly. I think Scott Clark in his article - that we'll link to in the show notes references this as well - paints a hypothetical picture of the congregant coming up to the pastor and saying, "Pastor, are you frustrated with us? Because it seems like you are always dissatisfied and frustrated with us." That does seem to be the tone and the posture of so many guys where the people are not doing as they should be; they don't take things as seriously as they should, they're not diligent enough, they're not disciplined enough, their affections aren't good enough. "I'm going to, again, light that proverbial fire under you to motivate you through intensity, exacting tone, demands, and even in this threatening sort of vibe. I'm going to unsettle you." It's interesting as we think about the posture of Paul in the letters to the Corinthians. I'm also mindful of 1 Thessalonians 4:1 where Paul says to the Thessalonian Christians essentially this: what you're doing, do so all the more. He's exhorting them to continue on in the faith and in the Christian life. He doesn't just lambaste them for all the ways they fall short. He says, "You're already doing this and this. So as you are doing, just do it all the more. That I think is a much better representation of what our pastoral posture should be: establish people in their identity in Christ - their status as justified, adopted children of God. "You've been given a spirit of adoption, not fear, and you are safe. Look at what God is doing in you. Look at how your life is changing. What you're doing, do so all the more," rather than, "You've got a long way to go." It's totally different in posture and tone. 

Jon Moffitt: You will not hear legal preachers admit to their own frailness and need of grace. Paul would constantly say, "I'm the greatest sinner that I know." 

Justin Perdue: And we trust he meant that.

Jon Moffitt: Right. He didn't say it once. He talked about how if he stacked up his righteousness, he considered it as worthless. "Oh, wretched man that I am. Who will save me from this body of death?" I think he was referring to his post-conversion experience, not his prior. Paul did not see himself as a wretched man on his road to Damascus. When he was confronted and converted, that's when he went, "Oh, my. This is who I am now."

A legal preacher will be looking down upon the congregants, trying to pull them up to his standard. A gospel preacher is one who is down with his people trying to lift them up into hope. He is not trying to pull them to his own standard; he is trying to push them to Christ and to uphold them. It's the difference between the removal of hope because they're trying to create an action versus the establishment of hope as well as trying to create action. I want my people to love each other, and the best way they will do that is when they feel as if all hope is secure, that they don't need to love each other because they're establishing God's love. They don't need to love and obey and fight sin because if they don't, there's the fear of God. They have it already. This is Ephesians 4:1\. This is how you respond worthy to the call which you have been called. As we always say, identity forward.

We rest, therefore we obey. The legal preacher says, "If you want to rest, you better obey," which is the complete opposite. You cannot obey enough to have rest; you just will never obey enough; you're always going to fight against sin. But you can rest if you're resting in something that is outside of yourself; the good news of the gospel is rest is found outside of yourself. The Law should keep you from ever resting in your own self-righteousness. From the experience that I've had through the years of hearing legal preaching is that - and they wouldn't say it this way but unfortunately it's the conclusion - they're trying to get you to rest in your own self-righteousness. You and I both know that's very dangerous because you don't have enough self-righteousness to have enough hope when it comes to the end of your life. It just won't be enough ever.

Justin Perdue: Paul's model of upholding himself as the utmost, the foremost, or the chief of sinners is helpful for any of us who would ever get in the pulpit and preach. Like you, I don't think that Paul is using that language in 1 Timothy 1:15-16 when he calls himself the foremost of sinners. I don't think that's a rhetorical tool and tactic to try to create a reaction. I don't think that's smoke and mirrors; I think that's legitimate. I'm convinced, Jon, that the guys who are the most effective in the pulpit, biblically speaking, are the preachers who are most in touch with the depth of their own corruption.

If we are appropriately mindful of how wretched we are, as the man standing in the front to herald the good news and to preach the word of God, then we would never assume that that we have any kind of merit or righteousness to stand on. We would never downplay the severity of our own sin or the depth of our own wickedness, and that's going to help us in preaching, counseling, and teaching other people because we would never encourage them to look to their own merit or their own righteousness. We would never downplay the depth of their corruption. If anything, we're going to just continue to beat the drum of "You are far worse off than you ever imagined." Even for those of us who have been in the faith for a season of time and are being sanctified, we still are much worse off than we ever could see. There is more sin in us than we realize but here's the good news: there is even more mercy in Christ. This is why you must continually look to him for your hope and your confidence as the ground of your assurance and not look to anything in you. I'm not saying that this is what guys think, but it seems that a lot of the legal preachers have lost some touch and some sense of the depth of their own corruption, because it's almost like in their own minds, they're doing pretty well; to be able to almost look down upon others and preach with the kind of condescending tone or the notion that you would want to pull people up to your level biblically is craziness. If they're going to imitate us, there may be some things in my life that are worthy of imitation by God's grace, but ultimately imitate me as we all look to Christ for our hope. Join me in looking to Jesus Christ for our righteousness. Join me in looking to Christ for everything. 

Jon Moffitt: If I'm demonstrating love, grace, peace, and patience, sure, imitate that. But often when people think of that, they think of the spiritual disciplines. They think of the standard like I have established these standards and you need to look at my standards and establish your life according to my standards. No. If you think if I'm demonstrating grace and you can see that, then sure, imitate that. But there's not much about my life that you're going to want to imitate. 

Justin Perdue: What you're describing are fruits of God's Spirit in which are held out for all of us. God will produce these things in us. We would look to those things and say that's really good - I'm seeing love in his life, or I'm seeing patience in her life, and God gets the credit for that. That is something that I want to see more of in my own life. Absolutely. But like what you're saying, what is often upheld are these things that actually aren't explicitly in Scripture. They're like life habits and practices that may be wise or may be not. It's like I need to do everything that he's doing if I'm going to be godly like that. That's really not been so helpful.

Jon Moffitt: Well, we are out of time. We need to move over to the members podcast. We have more to say on this - there might even be some advice to preachers. If you find yourself to be a legal preacher, how do you make the change? I'll give the description of that moment where I made that transition. Justin and I both grew up in legal preaching. How do you transition out of it? 

We're going to spend a little bit more time on what the purpose of the pulpit in the membership podcasts is. If you don't know what that is, that is an extra podcast that we do for those who support our ministry. It's just a simple way for us to say thank you for taking your money and supporting our ministry. 

You can get a 14-day free trial. Go over and listen to several of those to hear about them. It also has a backlog of over two hundred episodes of our regular podcast, over a hundred of our membership, and all of our articles. There's also an education series on there. There's a lot of information. It's a simple way to help support Theocast to keep the message of rest going around the world. 

Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week.

[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-legal-preaching-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-legal-preaching/)

---

### MEMBERS: Preaching [About] the Gospel (Transcript)

*Published: April 8, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-preaching-about-the-gospel-transcript*
*Tags: Gospel, law preaching, legal preaching, Legalism, Pietism, preaching*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-preaching-about-the-gospel/)  
  
Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members' podcast. Jon, before we started recording this segment, said something like this: "yeah, I've got something that's going to get you fired up, Justin." So I'm going to just go ahead and throw it over to Jon and see what this is. He's trying to poke me and provoke me.  
  
We trust this will be useful and somehow edifying to the saints.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Before I do, I just want to say - and I know we say this all the time - but for those of you that support Theocast and, it's going to be even harder with the COVID-19 virus because I know there are going to be people who can't support us monthly because they need the money. So, for those of you that do, it does pay for everything. Every single dime is used every single month to make sure this message goes forth. So, thank you for that.  
  
I think that the responsibility of a shepherd is to not allow the sheep to fall into the mud, into the mire, and to stay there and lose rest, peace, and hope because of sin and being trapped in sin. We are to lead them away from sin and back into the loving arms of our Father.  
  
Where I struggle or what I see is people adequately rebuke and exhort and expose frailty and sin. "You should stop doing those things." But what they demand is obedience, right? "You need to stop doing this, and you need to start doing that." If you look at Paul or if you look at any of the writers of the New Testament, there's always a sandwich effect that happens, there is the hope of Christ. There is the demand for obedience, and then there's the hope of Christ. And if you do not do this, you will lead people into absolute depression and despair, anxiety, and lack of assurance because the only motivation a believer has is that they are in Christ no matter what they do. The moment that they cannot feel this, they don't believe this, it's not in front of them. When sin struggle happens, they will lose hope. They will lose the fight because they think, "I can't do it enough. There is no way God's going to approve of me because from what the pastor is saying, I can't live to that standard." So please know that it is not either-or. It is not only preaching the gospel and not obedience or only preach obedience and not the gospel. The Bible doesn't work that way. They're both. But what is emphasized is most important.  
  
Justin Perdue: I'm going to use language that we use a lot because it's biblical: the Christian life is identity forward. It's lived status forward.  
  
Whenever we are talking about obedience, fleeing from sin, or turning from sin in the Christian life, we're always doing that with that very self-conscious, identity-forward status for reality in our minds. I always take my cue from the apostle Paul in the letter to the Romans, where his response to potential lawlessness is not, "Let me lambaste people with law and tell them that they must obey." His response to that is, "Let me tell you even more clearly about your identity. Let me tell you even more clearly about who you are and how you have been united to the Lord Jesus by faith, and you're now in him. Let me tell you also about how you have been set free from the bondage that you once were into sin, and now let's consider the reality of the Christian life that there is an internal war going on. And that we are free from condemnation in Christ, and God has promised us ultimately that we will be sanctified and finally saved. And now, let's press on in in the Christian life." I'm confident - and I would stake my ministry on this - that if we are not preaching obedience to the church that way, we're wrong.  
  
We cannot just come in from the top turnbuckle, and just elbow drop everybody and use fear and dread as a motivation. Let me nuance this a little bit. I use harsh language at points, as I'm sure you do, Jon, in the pulpit about sin or even in trying to protect the church.  
  
The strongest language that I ever use and the most intense that I ever am is when I'm trying to defend the clarity of the gospel and trying to keep us from weaving works back into it. Because we all tend to do it. When is the harsh language? The harsh language is when somebody has completely lost their senses and are running off into high-handed, self-conscious, unrepentant sin. And that's when we're like, "Brother, sister, you need to wake up here." But in terms of general ongoing nature of saints struggling against sin in the church, it's a very Galatians 6:1 reality.  
  
The mature among us seek to restore those people who are caught in sin with a spirit of gentleness. We confront them and talk to them about what's going on in their lives and try to understand. We aim to restore them gently. We don't beat them up. We don't beat them to death. We talk reasonably. We pray. We plead humbly and kindly and say, "Brother and sister, you know that this is going to go nowhere. You know that you have been united to Christ and that he is your righteousness. Let's talk." That's my general posture in how I try to think about some of this stuff.  
  
Jon Moffitt: This can even go into what you had ended with, with Christ-centered preaching, where someone says we need to be Christ-centered in preaching. This would go back to the heart of what the podcast is about: if you preach Christ, the facts of Christ, and you don't lead someone to the hope of Christ, which is grace, then are you truly preaching the transforming truth of the Bible? I'm going to tell you right now that there are a lot of people who believe the facts of Jesus when it comes down to who he is and what he did. Here's the thing. If you disconnect why from what you have not gospel, you'd have not preached Christ.  
  
People get confused on what the why is, or I would say the result of Jesus's coming. So, this is all I know. It sounds hairsplitting, and I know that it can sound confusing, but the ministry of Theocast is designed to lead Christians back into rest. And the only way you can have rest is if you have assurance. The only way you can have assurance is not in Law but in grace. Grace leads to assurance, not Law ever.  
  
Justin Perdue: This Christ-centered preaching bit to me is an entire podcast. At some point, I may even write a primer on it because this is something that I've been thinking about, and I've observed for years in a context that we'll talk all about biblical theology. We'll talk about the redemptive-historical framework of scripture to a degree, and we'll talk about Christ-centered preaching and about preaching the gospel in every sermon. Often what that means for many people is I'm preaching the text, I'm saying a lot of really good things about the text, and I'm showing you my exegetical work here so that you can understand the passage better. This is all fine. But there's been a fundamental problem because oftentimes the gospel is preached by inserting the plan of salvation somewhere in the sermon.  
  
God created everything, and he made it good, made man in his image, but man fell. Now we stand under the righteous condemnation of God, and now, here's what Jesus has done, and God is calling all men everywhere to repent of sin and trust Christ. That's fine. But that is not Christ-centered preaching. Christ-centered preaching begins with this question: where does this text stand in relation to Jesus? If that is not the first question that a preacher is asking himself as he prepares a sermon, where does this text stand in relation to Christ? You're wrong. You can say all kinds of wonderful things about the passage, but if you're not preaching it in light of where it stands with relation to Christ, you're wrong.  
  
Jon Moffitt: And Christ as Messiah.  
  
Justin Perdue: Right. Where does this stand in relation to Jesus, his person, his work, the covenant of redemption, the covenant of grace? Where does this stand? It's not trying to read Jesus into every page of the Bible like it's a Where's Waldo book. We're trying to understand every text in light of the main point. If you preach a sermon. That is filled with all kinds of astute fantastic observations, but you have read and interpreted the text, not in light of the main point of the Bible. You have misunderstood it, and you have not preached Christ. I think this is where a lot of this confusion comes from, Jon, as you hear a sermon on a passage, and the only Jesus we get is this kind of plan of salvation that's inserted at minute 37.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Or every passage is in light of lordship salvation. Jesus is Lord. Every application ends up becoming, "Unless you make Jesus Lord, you are condemned." And that too is not the gospel. It is true that unless you make Jesus Lord, you are condemned. But that's not good news. That's bad news.  
  
Thankfully, the good news is that Jesus makes himself Lord of your life. In your absolute rebellion against him, he makes himself Lord.  
  
Justin Perdue: Yeah. He is the Lord. And then he overcomes your rebellion in grace and love and mercy and takes his place - figuratively speaking - on the throne of your heart.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You have the power to grant God the title, Lord? You have that power? You do not. That power is not given to you. That's called Arminianism.  
  
Justin Perdue: That's right. Or the idea that you've trusted Jesus as your Savior, but now you need to make him Lord again. First of all, I think that that distinction is false and introduced and imposed upon the text. But that's another conversation for another time. But still, if we're talking about how about you've trusted Jesus as Savior and now you need to do something else, where does the power and the ability come with which we might do that?  
  
And that's what you were saying. That's God's word. It's God's grace. It's something that he will do in you. And how is He going to do that? Is He going to do that because you're working really hard? Or is He going to do that as you look to His son and trust in Christ and rely upon His Spirit? I think it's the latter.  
  
You're applying means if you participate in your sanctification. Just like you participate in life by being alive, right? God is doing it.  
  
Jon Moffitt: The reason why we get very excited about this is that I hear men, and I'm thankful for men who want to be precise and clear, and they want to make sure your brother sending truth. What my criticism is that you are presenting a perspective that is trying to smoke out the nominalist that is trying to go after the Southern Baptist who said a prayer, walked the mile, got baptized, but now lives like a pagan. That's what you're trying to smoke out. You assume that fear and that harsh preaching is going to turn them from their ways and going to get them back serious about God. You've been convinced that the seriousness of preaching, the Law is going to transform hearts, and the Law does not transform hearts. The Law doesn't do anything when it comes to transforming one's heart.  
  
Justin Perdue: If that really is the ammo, if we really think that we're preaching to a bunch of unconverted people, then the methodology there is not, "Let me just yell at you about how you need to obey God." That's absurd. If we think that we're talking to unconverted people, then we're preaching the Law in its first use, "Let me preach the Law and all this holiness in all of its righteousness, and in that sense, all of its horrors outside of Christ. And then let me hold Jesus out to you." It would never be, "Let me scold you towards taking God seriously."  
  
"You, like me, stand condemned. And you think you're doing okay, you're not. Here's how serious the Law is and how holy the Law is and how righteous the Law is. But now, let me tell you about Jesus." That would be our posture. It's a dead giveaway that something is wrong when we think the answer to nominalism, the answer to false profession is for us to scold people with Law and not really give them Christ. I don't understand it. It absolutely makes my head explode that we think to preach the Law as a standard of righteousness, and in a standard for living without offering people Jesus is the way to curb nominal Christianity.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Even the Lord's table, unfortunately, turns into this something that has to be received. We make requirements for those two in order to receive it. Listen, the table has a fence around it, meaning that there are those who can and cannot take it. But then we always tell people, "You better not take it in an unworthy manner, or you may die." And then we dictate what the unworthy manner is outside the context of what Paul was saying in Corinthians, basically saying if you've had any kind of sin this week, you are unworthy to take it.  
  
Wait a minute. We're celebrating the death of Christ for our sin, and yet you have to be worthy in order to celebrate the death of Christ for your sin. How is that?  
  
Justin Perdue: Our church is not that old, and everybody in our church was at a different church not that long ago. And so, we're all learning and growing together. We've had people, especially those who have a tender conscience among us, who have not come to the table because they were like, "I'm not worthy. I've had a bad week. I've sinned too much. I'm angry with my husband." Or whatever it is. We've had to be redundantly clear that if you understand yourself to be a sinner and you understand you deserve nothing but condemnation from God if you understand that you have failed, you have blown it this week, and you realize that you are utterly dependent upon the grace of God in Christ and have no hope before the Lord saved Jesus, then this table is absolutely for you. You ought to be the first person up here as soon as people are invited to come. Sprint down the aisle and come to Christ and receive Him in the table.  
  
It's wild though, brother, how many Calvinistic people who love God, in fear of the Lord in terms of reverence and everything else and love His word, would just be wrecked. They're thinking, "I've sinned too much this week. I shouldn't take the supper." Sister, brother, know that what we all need is the supper. What we all need is Christ held out to us.  
  
We have pulled the curtain back, and you have gotten a foretaste of at least two episodes that we will maybe do in the future. And like what Jon did at the beginning. I want to thank you sincerely for your partnership with us.  
  
We trust you believe us when we tell you that we couldn't do what we're doing without you. Theocast would not exist without the partnership of our members and without your generous support. We hope that you continue to listen in and continue to support the ministry.  
  
Tell others about Theocast. Spread the word. Podcasts and ministries like this tend to grow through word of mouth. That's a very effective way to see this message of the reformation, and the message of rest in Christ spread to as many people as possible. And I know we all want to see that happen.  
  
So, thank you again. We hope you've been encouraged by this conversation today, and we look forward to talking with you again next week.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/preaching-about-the-gospel-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/preaching-about-the-gospel/)

---

### Preaching [About] the Gospel (Transcript)

*Published: April 8, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/preaching-about-the-gospel-transcript*
*Tags: Gospel, law preaching, legal preaching, Legalism, Pietism, preaching*

[**Listen to Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/preaching-about-the-gospel/)

Justin Perdue: Today on Theocast, we will be discussing preaching about the gospel. It's been an observation that Jon and I have made many times that you will hear guys talk a lot about preaching the gospel. They will describe and give the facts of the gospel, but then will never actually offer the sinner Christ, and will never actually preach the grace of God in Christ by which sinners are saved. So there's a lot of talking about the gospel, but not a lot of preaching the gospel legitimately. We're going to consider that. In the members' podcast, we talk about preaching sin and obedience in light of the gospel. We also talk about Chris- centered preaching: what it is and what it isn't.

We hope this conversation is encouraging to you. Stay tuned.

Jon Moffitt: The title of this is "Preaching About the Gospel Versus Preaching the Actual Gospel."

This is seen not in just one, the fundamentalist Baptist world, which I grew up in. We preached a lot about the gospel, but we've kind of assumed it, or it was that last thing preached in five points at the end, now come forward.

But then, this can be seen in broader evangelicalism and even in, unfortunately, Calvinistic, reformed churches where they will say, "We need to preach the gospel. We need to be standing firm on the gospel." And then you have the whole gospel-centered movement, right? The gospel-centered parenting, gospel-centered career, we could just add them all in there.

And even in there, the gospel becomes something you do. It becomes a verb, and it becomes a point of action - we're Gospeling - and not a truth that is to believe. It's not good news. Today's podcast is understanding the difference between preaching about the gospel - which happens a lot - and actually preaching the gospel.

There are many people who will say, I go to a church that preaches the gospel because they hear the word from the pulpit. Gospel. They hear that word. But to say the word does not mean you actually gave the truth that is centered in that word. So, what's the difference?

If someone stands up and they say, "We need to preach the gospel." And then they give the facts of Jesus's life - his virgin birth, his life, miracles, death, resurrection. They give you all of those facts, and then they even give you the facts of the frailty of men, the depravity of men. That's all great. That is a part of the gospel. But if you never get to the thing that sets it apart from it every other religion...

I'll tell you this right now: Catholics, for the most part, are going to believe in the virgin birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They're going to believe in that. They're going to believe that Jesus is the great High Priest. They're also, in some respects, going to believe that all human beings are sinners. That doesn't separate you from a Roman Catholic. What separates us from anyone out there, including Mormons, Jehovah's witness, Catholics, what makes us evangelical is that Jesus Christ - his death, birth, and resurrection - is presented to humanity, to the sinner, as a free gift of grace; zero requirements with no actions, no nothing on the response of the sinner other than that they receive and believe. And even the ability to receive and believe is grace.

All is grace, grace, grace. So, if you preach the facts of Jesus, and you never present the truth of grace, which is the final cap end of the gospel, you actually never preached the gospel. You presented truth - and there's a difference between presenting truth and presenting the gospel. I know it feels like we're splitting hairs, but Justin, tell us why this is not splitting hairs.

Justin Perdue: I'm going to pick up on that word truth that you just threw out there, Jon. I have observed this many times as well, over the course of a number of years, where guys who are preaching in local church contacts or at conferences will get up and get very fired up about the truth. I'm talking like spit flying, wiping the sweat off the forehead, like we need to stand for truth and preach the truth and be unashamed of the truth and say the hard thing.

You and I are in complete agreement with that. We do want to be very precise and stand for the truth. And at the same time, there is this component that is so often missing from this truth proclamation. You get a lot of facts, a lot of dealing with the biblical texts, and concern for sound exegesis, but we never actually get to the point of the entire Scripture: that Jesus Christ, the God-Man, God the Son who took on flesh, came to do for sinful man what sinful man could never do for himself. And he came to fulfill God's Law and atone for man's sin and to accomplish everything necessary for our salvation.

And then like you already alluded to, Jon, nothing is left to be done other than to trust Christ, to rest in him, to look to him, to hope in him, to turn like that repentance piece. That metanoia change-of-mind piece is a change of mind about God and myself and about Christ and the way of salvation.

And so that's incorporated in faith. But what are we doing? We're casting ourselves upon the grace of God and Jesus Christ. What's missing most pointedly from so many sermons and from so many conference addresses is the thrust of the Bible that's encapsulated so beautifully in Isaiah 55:1 where God offers to sinners, out of His own grace and mercy, what we need for free. It costs nothing. It doesn't require anything of us. Isaiah 55:1, the Lord speaks to the prophet, "Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price." That's the invitation.

And it's all of grace. It's unmerited. You could never earn it. You could never do it. And God says, "Here it is in my Son and it's free." And in Isaiah 43:25 he says, "I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will remember your sins no more." It's not a message of guilt. You and I were talking about this before we hit the record button.

It's so terrible when the gospel, as its so-called, comes across as this message of guilt. This fires me up, too: when people talk about the total depravity of man as part of the gospel, or we'll talk about the holy righteous requirements of God as part of the gospel. I'm thinking, "Look, you need to be more. You're all about precision and truth. You need to get it right. The gospel is not any of that."

As the message about the depravity of man is in the Bible. The message about the Law is in the Bible. God is holy and righteous and requires perfection and all that. That's all there. The gospel though, is simply the message of Jesus and what he has done in the place of sinners that is to be trusted. And when we trust him, all is well. We have peace with God, and we have been reconciled to him. Don't call the Law gospel. Don't call depravity the gospel. Don't call all of these things the gospel.

The gospel is Christ crucified for sinners, fulfilling the Law for sinners, taking his life up again, and securing the resurrection of sinners all by faith, grounded in the grace of God.

Jon Moffitt: It can't be good news if you add to the truth and the facts of Jesus' life that this is given to you as a gift from the Father by grace, meaning that it is a merited favor.

The good news of the gospel is mercy - you don't receive what you deserve - and grace - you're receiving what you don't deserve. That is the gospel. When someone preaches 45 minutes about the gospel or even on the gospel, they preach the gospel, and they do not emphasize the point that they need to drive home. The point that they do not try to clarify for the heart. The most confusing part of the gospel.

Religions have been confusing grace for thousands of years now. This is why we differ from Rome because Rome does not believe in gracefully. Let me clarify this. Rome does believe in grace; they absolutely do. And so if you ever say, "Roman Catholics don't believe in grace." They do. They just don't believe it's enough.

Justin Perdue: They believe that we have to cooperate with the grace of God in order to be saved.

Jon Moffitt: Right. So let me give you some examples of this. When someone is preaching about the gospel, and you get done hearing the gospel, and you feel guilty or dirty or ashamed, or you have no assurance. If someone finishes preaching the gospel and you lack assurance, I wonder if they actually preached the gospel to you. Because the kindness of God is meant to lead us to repentance. The glory of Christ is supposed to draw us more into his love, not push us away. It's supposed to remove all fear and doubt, not create fear and doubt. And a lot of preaching today, even the guys who are Calvinistic and reformed, will preach the gospel, and at the end of it, I feel dirty because I have not lived up to whatever standard. Because what they actually are collapsing is the implications of the gospel. What happens after one is transformed with the actual gospel. One cannot be said without the other. You cannot collapse those.

What happens to the transformed life is not good news. That's the implication of it. That's what ends up happening, right? So for instance, what happens if you jump into a pool? What ends up happening to your body? You become very lightweight, right? You come to float. So part of being wet inside of a pool is the weightlessness, but if you're wet, does that mean you're always weightless? If I get wet, does that mean I'm weightless?

Justin Perdue: Of course not.

Jon Moffitt: Of course not. So, but this is what we end up doing is we automatically put two and two together. We automatically say one plus one equals two. So we think the implications of the gospel mean it's the gospel. And then we collapse them and say, if you aren't floating, then you are not saved.

The moment you begin to talk about repentance, you start talking about obedience as part of the one-to-one gospel. That is not good news. That is an implication of the gospel. So I know, Justin, you probably have a lot you want to say. I know this is probably confusing to some of you, and you are thinking, "What do you mean it's not the gospel?"

This is what the point of this podcast is: clarifying what the gospel is and what is not the gospel.

Justin Perdue: A few thoughts. The first, just to put a bow on what we were talking about earlier: to reiterate the facts of Jesus's life, even his life, death, and resurrection, to just state those things is not to herald the gospel. Until one has heralded the grace and mercy of God in Jesus Christ and invited the poor, sin-sick, wretched sinner to trust in Christ and to - without payment, for absolutely free - be justified and to be promised salvation forever with God, it's not gospel preaching until you've done that.

But then I want to jump on what you just said, the implications of the gospel are not the gospel. This stuff is butchered in so many environments, many of which are Calvinistic, where you get guys talking about the demands of the gospel, for example. And you hear this language: the demands of the gospel, what Jesus demands of the world or what Jesus requires, etc.

Immediately, I want to just start jumping up and down and start screaming, "The gospel is a message about what Christ has done, not about what we must do. And last time I checked, even if we want to use that language of demand, there is maybe one demand of the gospel. And what is that? Believe it. "That's it. Like full stop. Do you want to demand the gospel? Believe. Trust Christ.

Jon Moffitt: But even that, according to Ephesians 2, is a gift.

Justin Perdue: It's a gift. No argument, Jon, on that. This whole demands of the gospel: there's one - believe in Jesus. And you can't do that on your own; God must grant that. He must give you the gift of faith. And even when it comes to repentance, I just want to be really clear that faith incorporates repentance; they go together, and God gives both. It's quite obvious that the change of mind that happens comes from the Lord, not from us. And when we're looking to Christ, we are necessarily looking away from our own goodness and our own merit when we're trusting in Jesus. That's something that's going to continue to go on in our lives. God is the one who repents us. God is the one who grants faith.

I see this to be a problem, as you do too, where the entailments of the gospel, the demands, implications, and all of this are preached as part and parcel of the good news. As soon as we start to include in our gospel presentation transformation of life in any way, we have lost the good news of the gospel.

Inevitably and inherently, we are now pointing sinners to look to the transformation of their own lives for the ground of their confidence before God. We can't do that. When we talk about a good works sort of obedience, or we talk about these implications of the gospel and the entailments of it, we want to be really clear that the question is not, "Are we to do good works in Christ?" Of course, we are. The question is not, "Are we to pursue obedience in Christ?" Of course we are. The question is why, "Why do we do good works? Why do we pursue obedience?" And that's where this thing goes off the rails.

So often, the why is misunderstood, misrepresented, and it's poorly taught, which results in bondage and not freedom. It results in a bunch of dread and guilt, not delight and joy. There's no peace. We're always chasing after something that we can never quite attain. And like you said, John, if you come away from a sermon and your initial takeaway is guilt and condemnation - that you're not good enough there is no way you're going to make it to heaven and Jesus is going to tell you to depart from him - if that's your takeaway, I don't think you've heard the gospel. Because the reaction to the gospel is, "This is unbelievable. This is a scandal. You're telling me that I am as wretched as I am and that I've broken all of God's commandments, and I've never really kept any of them, and I still struggle with my own corruption, yet God has counted to me - because of His grace, by faith in His Son - the perfect satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Jesus. That's mine. You're telling me that. You're telling me that God has blotted out my sin, and He'll remember it no more. He looks at me and says, 'Righteous.' Are you telling me that? That is scandalous mercy." That's the reaction.

Jon Moffitt: I'm still thinking of the virus. There are going to be people who get to a place where they have nothing. If someone walks up and says, "I have nothing. I'm in need. I cannot live on my own. I have nothing to survive on unless someone gives me something." And I go inside my house, walk back out and say, "I have great news for you. Great news. I have an entire house full of water and food and shelter, and it is yours. As long as you can pay some monthly rent." That's not good news. Not to the person who has nothing.

Justin Perdue: I was going to say not if you don't have any money.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. It's not good news. Now they might think, "Thanks for offering. How much money? Because I have nothing and I can't even go into debt cause I'm already in debt. I'm in so much debt, I can't get out of the debt."

That's why when someone hears the gospel, and they hear, "It's all yours. You can have all of it." There's the difference. The Father walks out of the house and says, "Not only am I going to give this to you, but I'm going to make you a part of my family so that you forever will never run out, and you will be owned by Me. Which means you get all of My name, and with My name comes My reputation, and with My reputation comes all that exists that's within Me that now that's good news." He not only just gives you what you need, He takes you in, and He transforms you, and He brings you into his family.

Not only do you receive mercy and grace, but you are then receiving a wonderful gift called the transformation of life. The transformation of life is a wonderful gift, but it is not the message of the gospel. It is an implication of the gospel. It's a result of what you are. The danger is someone will say, "Unless you are transforming your life, you are not in the gospel." That is a byproduct. It's like yelling at somebody, "Unless you are moving 65 miles an hour, you cannot be a Christian." You have to be in the car in order to be moving 65 miles an hour. Wow. And we're telling people they must be doing this and that. If they're not doing that, there's something wrong. That's cart before the horse here.

Justin Perdue: Just like we can't believe and trust in Jesus apart from God giving us that faith out of his grace, the same is true when it comes to the transformation of life: you will never do that apart from God's grace. It cannot happen. You can't change your own heart. You can't transform your own life. As you said, it is an outflow of the good news, and God is the one who does it; He is the one who changes you.

We start to tell people to believe in Jesus - which we should as we should call men to believe - and then we want to preach about how we are to live. There are plenty of words in the Bible about how we are to live together, especially in the corporate context of the church and how we love each other. But to preach that to men as though they can do it is absolutely deluded. There are a few of those.

I had a conversation last week with a woman at the CrossFit box. She knows I'm a pastor and so she comes up to me before class. We're all there a few minutes early, just loosening up and everything. She goes, "I have a philosophical question for you."

I said, "Sure. Happy to try to answer it." And she starts to talk to me about how she goes to a church in the area, or at least has been checking it out a little bit and had questions about the nature of the gospel. She goes, "Help me to understand this. If we were to murder somebody and we believe in Jesus, we're still saved." Basically, if we were to do something really terrible, are we lost? And I said to her, "Where we have to start is to understand that there is no net or degree of heinousness of a particular sin. There is no duration of a person remaining in sin that necessarily means that they're not a Christian. Christians struggle mightily with their own corruption and do extraordinarily evil things at points. Here's the message of the gospel: the message of the gospel is that Jesus is our righteousness and that Jesus has atoned for our sin, and that we are looking away from ourselves into him completely for the ground of our confidence before the Lord and for our standing before God."

And so, we can do all kinds of terrible things, and yet God keeps us looking to Christ, and we are safe. She's interested. We're talking about all that. How could that be? How could that be that Jesus has done all this stuff? And so, we started to talk a little bit about the fall of man and Adam and how everything that we lost in Adam, we have in Jesus by faith that he came to succeed every way that Adam failed.

And so, by trusting in Christ, we are now in Jesus. And we are taking shelter in Christ, and he is our representative. His perfect record is counted to us. We had this conversation over the course of five minutes before a CrossFit workout, and she just looks at me at the end of it, and she says, "You know, I've never thought about any of that. This is amazing." It is. It is absolutely incredible that we are in Christ Jesus, and his record is counted to us; he protects us and shields us from the righteous anger and wrath of God that our sin deserves. He took it, and it's over, and we're safe—scandalous mercy.

We talk about the prodigal son so often, Luke 15:11-32, with good reason, because that's another text that's so often misrepresented. And the thing that I wanted to bring up today, which has been mentioned on Theocast before certainly, is when the prodigal son goes off and squanders his inheritance on foolish living, and he's finally brought to a place where he's eating the food that he's feeding to pigs, there are all kinds of figurative stuff going on there for us to see. This is a horrible situation. He comes to his senses, and he starts to think, "I'm going to go back to my Father's house, and here's my pitch: I am going to offer myself to my Father as a servant. I'm going to tell him I've done all these things. I'm wrong. I don't deserve anything from him. Here's how I'm going to work, and I'm going to do what's required so that I can just be a part of his house again." And what happens when he goes? He doesn't even get to that point. The Father runs to him, and the Father says, "Put my robes on him, clothe him in my garments, put my ring on his hand, and put shoes on his feet. Let's celebrate because my child is home."

We always have these notions that go, "If I just go back, if I repent, go back to God, do my penance, and I do what's necessary, you know to appease God, He will be happy to have me as a part of His family again." Whereas God won't even hear that nonsense. He comes out, and he says, "There's nothing that you could ever do. You're here by my grace. You're here. I've got robes of righteousness for you. I've got mercy for you. I want to celebrate with you and rejoice over you because my child who once was lost, is now come home." That's the good news.

Jon Moffitt: Let's take it to the opposite side. We always use the illustration of the rich young ruler. He comes, and he asks Jesus a very important question: what must I do to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven?

So Jesus answers his question. He gives them good news. He tells him, "Oh, the good news is be perfect. Keep the Law." And the young man says, "I've done that from my youth," to which I would love to know what the thought of Jesus at that moment was. Of course, the disciples don't know other than what Jesus just says. And he says, "Go sell everything that you have and come follow me." Jesus was exposing this man's heart, which was full of covetousness.

He did not want to give up, so he wasn't sinless. Unfortunately, people spin this and say, "Unless you forsake everything and follow Jesus, you cannot be saved." No. Jesus was saying, "You think you're holding to the whole Law, you're not. You have failed.".

Justin Perdue: He turns the temperature up. He dumps the full weight of the Law on that man's conscience. And the young man goes away dejected because he can't do what Jesus has asked him to do, which is the point. And the disciples even are responding, "Okay, Jesus, who can be saved?" They're despairing. Who can be saved?

And what does he say? "With man, it's impossible. But with God, it's possible." How many times have we all heard the story of the rich young ruler preached, and the gospel is presented as surrender all for Jesus? Just like we've talked about before about affections and feelings when the gospel was presented, as you know, you need to desire and treasure Christ above all things.

To desire and treasure Christ above all things and to surrender all for Jesus are things that I want to do in my inner man, and I never do perfectly. And so, if that's the good news, then the good news is not so good. It's a law that condemns me because I could never meet the standard.

Jon Moffitt: The good news of surrendering all is surrender all your self-righteousness. When you hear Jesus Christ presented to you, the good news is you can give up on all requirements. You can just hand it over. You don't need it. It's not necessary. Not only do you not need it, it's offensive. If you try and bring it, just give it away.

Justin Perdue: It's like Paul in Philippians 3, where he talks about not having a righteousness of our own. In Philippians 3:1, I love this language, where he said, "to write the same things to you again is no trouble for me and is safe for you." And then where does he go from there? He starts to talk about righteousness according to the Law and then righteousness according to faith in Christ. So, he is again beating this drum. "I was a rock star pharisee. If we're going to talk about righteousness according to the Law, nobody had more than me. But I consider it rubbish. I counted it as nothing." If you want to surrender at all, do this: follow Paul's example in this where he says the righteousness that he had, which was substantial. He threw it away because it was trash. It was absolutely worthless because he has now come to have righteousness by faith in Christ.

And it's what Jesus did for me. That is my righteousness so that I might be resurrected. It's remarkable. So the "surrender all" is not to give away all your stuff though, though there may be times where we're giving stuff away. That's fine. And we were told not to covet and be greedy and the like. Sure. You and I both agree about that. But the surrender almost fundamentally is to let go of your own notions of your own goodness. It's turn from not just your sin but turn from your own good works and look to Christ.

Jon Moffitt: This even goes back to another famous passage, which is unless you forsake mother, Father, brother, sister, and follow me, you cannot be my disciple. So, it's another example. The gospel is abandoning all and following Jesus. And you have to ask, "Is that really good news that Jesus is presenting? As anyone ever abandoned everything for the sake of God or for the sake of Jesus? Has anyone ever done that?"

No. Let's just trump it all right here. The greatest commandment His love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and strength. Have you ever loved God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength? I will tell you: not for a second.

I've had people argue with me on that, and I said, "Listen, there is no way your heart is still left within sin that God did not remove that from you yet."

Justin Perdue: There's never a moment where your heart, in the corruption that remains in it, does not taint everything that you're doing, thinking, feeling. It's always mixed. It's never pure.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. So, Jesus, what he is going after are people who are trying to mix Law and gospel. They're trying to achieve that "if I do this, then I will be accepted by Jesus" and Jesus, again, always takes the volume level that you have it at, which is a five, and he says, "I'm going to turn to at ten that pierces your ears." He says, "You want to do it by the Law, then here it is by the Law. You cannot mix me with anything else. It doesn't work that way. This is why Paul says such strong language to the Galatians when he says, "Why would you think that you could mix back in obedience to the Law with grace?"

It's no longer grace. You drop one little granule of the Law into the ocean of grace, and it's no longer the gospel. Do you think that's extreme? It's not. One salt granule of Law mixed into the ocean of grace removes hope because the moment you make any requirements, it's no longer good news to the person in debt. It is not good news.

Justin Perdue: And it's no longer grace because you have now introduced, even if it's a twinge, it's still a twinge of merit. There is something there that the sinner must be doing. Even if it's just small, if it's 1%, we have now removed this from the category of grace and unmerited favor.

Jon Moffitt: How else can Paul say there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus? Because if there is a requirement to be met by a Christian, I promise you, you will fail that requirement. Therefore, you will be under condemnation.

Justin Perdue: You are all condemned if there's a requirement.

And now some of us are deluded into thinking that we're better than we are, but in our sane moments when we are given a glimpse into our own sinfulness, we realize that if any of this depends on my performance or my affections or any of those things then I am without hope and I'm going to be lost forever.

I'm thinking about Jesus and his words at the end of Matthew 11, these verses Matthew 11:28-30, which in large part inspired the tagline of Theocast, "encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ." This is where Jesus calls to himself, "Come to me all you who are weary, burdened, and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." And he tells them to take his yoke upon them because his yoke is easy, and his burden is light. And that language of the yoke is a reference to the Law. It's like, "You've been bearing this yoke of the Pharisees and all of these heavy burdens that are being placed upon you. Come to me because the yoke that I will put upon you is easy. And the burden that I will put upon you is light. If you're weary, come to me." It's just like the words of Isaiah 55; it's just like the language of Revelation 21, "Come and drink of the water of life without payment." That's the bidding of Jesus.

If you're listening to a sermon or you're listening to a message, and there is more burden being put on you, it's not the gospel. It's not Christ. If you're listening and the weak are being pounded, it's not Jesus, and it's not the gospel. If bruised reeds are being broken, it's not Jesus, and it's not the gospel. If smoldering wicks are being put out, it's not Jesus, and it's not the gospel. Often I think that the messages that we hear that are claiming to be Gospel-centered and Christ-centered end up doing those very things: demands and burdens are all over the place, and doubt is introduced; insecurity is introduced. And those who are bruised reeds are being snapped in half.

You were talking about a time in seminary where there was a guy who got up in the preaching class and more or less just lambasted everybody with Law, and your professor stands up. And his first comment is, "Is there no balm in Gilead?" That's how I think you and I sometimes feel when we, and I trust many who are listening to the show feel this way, are hearing a message you feel, "My goodness, is there no balm in Gilead?"

Where? Where's the balm? Where is Christ for me?

Jon Moffitt: In the members' podcast, we'll spend time talking about the difference of preaching against sin, which we - Justin and I - do. As a matter of fact, it's my responsibility as the preacher of the Bible to accurately preach the whole counsel of God. In doing so, I will lead people to feel guilty of their sin, and I will press down in on that. You should feel guilty for the lack of love and for lust, anger, pride, and all of that. You should. You should just feel horrible about that. And then the gospel comes in and brings relief, right? That's where you repent of your sin and find joy.

This is why every week we do a prayer of confession. We confess that which we feel guilty for. I feel guilty for my sin because I have violated my relationship with my Father, who has graciously adopted me and called me into his own. And I treated it like trash. I treat it as if he could be consumed and thrown into the wastebasket.

And then he says, "Repent of that and find joy." This leads us to 1 John 2 - the gospel. He is as faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That's great. If you do not emphasize grace, you do not emphasize the gospel.

Justin Perdue: I just wanted to agree with you and add onto what you're saying about how you and I both believe in and do preach about the horror of sin, and want to help our people understand, as we preach the whole counsel of God, how bad our sin is and how horrible it is for our lives.

I'm thinking about Paul's language. 1 Timothy 1:8 says, "Now we know that the Law is good if one uses it lawfully," and that's what you and I are after.

Whenever we're talking about sin, we're speaking in categories of law. And so, the three uses of the law are always in view when I'm preparing a sermon, and I know they are for you too. Where first of all, preaching the horror of sin that we all might feel guilty for it, and we all might know how condemned we are, that we might run to Christ and know that we might trust Christ. Thank God for Jesus.

Then also, I'm helping people see how sin has never led anywhere good. Sin has never done anything good for them in their lives. If you pursue this, brothers and sisters, it will end up in wreckage and ruin and disaster. And if we pursue this, God has told us that it will not be good for us. We always talk in these terms.

We're also thinking in Christ Jesus, let us, by the Spirit, by grace, pursue obedience and conformity to God's word. It's like, "Lord, give me grace that I might not sin and give me grace that I might live onto you. Give me grace that by that, I might be confirmed. Continue to work in me and conforming to the image of Your Son." We're always thinking in these terms and preaching in these ways, but never do we collapse those categories to where that transformation or even sin is bad. You know that is not the gospel. The gospel is, again, Jesus and his work and the place of the sinner.

We're looking outside of us to save what's wrong in us, and we're resting in Christ. That's the good news.

Jon Moffitt: We'll definitely have more to say. We are out of time, my friend.

Justin Perdue: One thing that I want to want to talk about, maybe we'll touch on this in the members' area if we have time, is the guys that will champion Christ-centered preaching and never actually offer Christ to sinners.

Jon Moffitt: Let's do it. Let's jump into the members and just do it. We may need to do a podcast on that as well.

Justin Perdue: We do. All right. So, it's my job, and I'm failing miserably, brothers and sisters, friends, in trying to wrap this show and to get us over to the members' area.

Thank goodness there's grace for me. Thank you for listening to this episode of Theocast. We hope that it been of some encouragement to you as you think about the work of Christ for you, and you think about the safety that is yours by faith through the grace of God and Jesus. And so, we're going to make our way, Jon and I, over to the members' podcasts. You might be listening, and you're thinking, "I don't even know what that is." The members' podcast is an additional podcast that we offer to our members every week. You can go over to Theocast.org, our website, and find more information about our total access membership there.

We're still offering a two-week free trial on that membership so that you can kick the tires and see what all this additional content is. Give the members podcast a listen for a couple of weeks and determine if you want to become a member. So, avail yourself of that, and for our members, we will talk with you in just a moment. We are heading over there. We'll see you there.

[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-preaching-about-the-gospel-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-preaching-about-the-gospel/)

---

### MEMBERS: Joy in Suffering: A Conversation in Light of COVID-19 (Transcript)

*Published: April 1, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-joy-in-suffering-a-conversation-in-light-of-covid-19-transcript*
*Tags: coronavirus, covid19, James 1, joy, joy in suffering, Romans 5, trials*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/joy-in-suffering-covid19-members/)  
  
Jimmy Buehler: Welcome to the members podcast. We're continuing our conversation from the book of James and even more broadly just on the theme of suffering. Thank you for your support of our ministry. It's because of your giving and your listening that we are able to have these charitable and reasonable conversations as we seek to rest in Christ.  
  
As we think about just this whole theme of suffering, I think one of the things that I want to go at a little bit is, and this goes beyond the current season of COVID-19 and what we're all collectively facing, but it's just this mindset that the general disposition of the Christian should be happy and positive. And it's the general Christian radio mindset. I can't listen to Christian radio. I feel like it just hurts my ears in so many different ways. I don't know if you guys want to discuss that a little bit as we think about the disposition of the everyday Christian life and what's normative.  
  
What does it even mean to be happy? My wife may listen to this and roll her eyes because she says I'm a glass half empty kind of person. I like to say I'm realistic, but that's neither here nor there. Anyway, you guys want to jump in on that?  
  
Jon Moffitt: I think social media is amazing. And I think that it creates a lot of Law on people. I think it's amazing cause I have laughed more during COVID-19 than I have at any other time because of all the toilet paper memes.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There are some good ones out there. The best one that I've seen lately is a, "What if the federal government on April 1st said, 'We're just kidding, everybody! April fools!'  
  
Jon Moffitt: Oh man, that's horrible. The one I laughed at the hardest was we found the cure for COVID-19 it's in Chuck Norris' tears. Bad news is he's never cried.  
  
But the same time I've seen memes where people are like, "God's taken your phone. He's taken your job. You can't go outside. Now will you talk to me?" There's just so much. Then the other thing is a total non-spiritual; I'm going to just riff for a second. I don't think anybody has ever gone from fear to comfort because you told them to stop being an idiot and stop being afraid, like, "What are you all freaking out about?" I'm like, "You know, you're right. I shouldn't be afraid because you told me I was an idiot." Sorry, I just can't handle that. People need to be comforted and cared for. They don't need to be slapped and told they're an idiot. So that's just my own personal preference.  
  
Justin Perdue: There are a number of thoughts here. Jimmy, to your point about pessimism, I also would call myself realistic. I'm happy to say that I'm a pessimist, almost like Solomon in Ecclesiastes - I'm a pessimist but I believe that God and truth remain and try to wrestle with life accordingly.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: There's a difference between a healthy level of pessimism and being jaded. I don't think we're jaded at all but just realistic.  
  
Jon Moffitt: You guys definitely keep me on the realistic road because there are times I come in and I'm like, "Hey, what about this?" And you both are like, "I don't know, Jon, I don't think that's realistic."  
  
Justin Perdue: A couple of things here. In terms of unhelpful stuff that's being thrown out there by Christians right now, one is this whole faith versus fear paradox where you can either live by fear or you can live by faith. This is an interesting premise here that if you have faith in Christ, you apparently never experienced fear. If we were fully sanctified, true. But the reality is that we all struggle with doubt and fears of various kinds.  
  
That's an unhelpful thought that if you just have appropriate levels of faith, then you would not fear anything. I think what we would say back to that is that no, you will continue to wrestle with fear and struggle, but what you're doing is you're looking to Christ in the promises of God in the midst of that fear.  
  
Jon Moffitt: JP, just to interject: do you walk into your child's room and say stop being afraid of the dark?  
  
Justin Perdue: No.  
  
Jon Moffitt: I just wanted to butt in and say you don't treat your child that way; why do we treat people on the internet that way?  
  
Justin Perdue: Another thought is the whole anxiety thing. This is going to sound absurd, but this is how we act in the church about a lot of stuff. People are afraid and they're anxious about their circumstances for good reason: because there's a lot of uncertainty going on, there's a lot of instability, and there's a pandemic on our hands. And we just look at people and quote the Bible and say, "Jesus says, don't be anxious." As though that has solved the problem. It's like looking at a depressed person and saying, "Be joyful always." Thank you for that. I want to be joyful or I don't want to be anxious, but you've got to give me more than that because I am anxious. What do you have for me?  
  
It's like the refrigerator platitude nonsense. It's the Romans 8:28 reality where we slap that verse on the refrigerator and we think that we've dealt with the problem of pain. It's crazy town. Jimmy, it's exactly Christian radio positivity stuff: if you just think good thoughts, you have enough positive vibes, and you have faith, then you're going to be doing swell in the midst of all this.  
  
Things are falling apart in the Purdue house. We're like a bunch of caged animals. It's just not good.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Don't be admitting that on a podcast now. Come on. You don't do that.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: You're a pastor.  
  
Jon Moffitt: Do you understand your priestly duties?  
  
Jimmy Buehler: The theological word here that we're looking for is called a theodicy: it's developing a theology about the problem of evil and pain and suffering. All sorts of theodicy are being thrown out on Facebook right now.  
  
I think one of the issues is that when we, as churches, fail to talk about God's goodness in the midst of suffering in the norm. When the suffering actually comes, what do we resort to? We resort to microwave level of theodicy where we throw up the meme, the gif, and the Bible verse and are just like, "Don't be afraid."  
  
When you've plastered people for the majority of your church ministry with these steps to have this kind of marriage and those steps to have this kind of victorious Christian life, when the crap hits the fan, you know, throwing Romans 8:28 out there is not going to do anything.  
  
It's like giving somebody a plain Pop-tart when they're starving and saying, "It's food." Sure, it's food, but it's not what they need right now. They need a steady diet. In coaching, pastoring, and shepherding people through suffering, we have to think less of it as little bits and bobs here and there, but it needs to be a steady gaze onto the goodness of God as he's given to us in Christ Jesus over the long haul. So that when suffering does come, as the Psalmists give us in their laments, they look back on God's faithfulness, they look back on the salvation that's been provided for them.  
  
Jon Moffitt: To add to that, Jimmy, I think that you can't try and move people out of their suffering because sometimes it doesn't work like that; especially if someone's suffering with cancer or the death of a loved one. I think that's why the New Testament tells us to weep with those who are weeping, because sometimes the only thing you can do is to get down there in the dirt with them to get dirty and just say, "I love you. This hurts but I'm here." And you just hold them because it's hard and they don't need you to say anything. They just need to know that they don't have to go through this alone. What you're providing for them is the reality of Christ with them. "I'm your brother and I'm going to love you just as Christ loves you right now. And that's all you need to know. You're not alone; he is sympathetic to your pain. I'm here and I'm sympathetic to your pain and I'm going to cry with you because Jesus cried when Lazarus died." How real is that? "Well, he knew he was raising him from the dead." It didn't mean that the pain was not realistic.  
  
"Well, we're all going to go to heaven one day." That doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt. It hurts. If one of my loved ones die or one of you guys die, it's going to wreck me. Because I love you and you mean so much to me that that's going to be a scar. When my dad died, it hurts. To still think about him being gone hurts. When someone comes up and just says, "But you know, he's in heaven," I am sanctified enough not to punch you right now, but this is what I want to do. I want him here. I love him. Anyways, I need to get off this for I say something I regret.  
  
Justin Perdue: It's absolutely true, Jon. We've got to acknowledge the hardness of the heart. I guess this is maybe a silly way to say it, but to act like hard things are not hard is not what the New Testament or the entire Scripture is saying. What we actually can do in Christ Jesus is stare difficult things in the face and call them what they are - and that includes death.  
  
I officiated and preached at the funeral of a young person from our congregation not long ago. These realities were very much at the front of my mind and on my heart that, my goodness, there is nothing about this that's good. This is terrible. The only good in this at all is that this woman, who has died of cancer, is not suffering anymore and she's with the Lord. But as far as we are concerned, for those who are left behind, this sucks.  
  
To try to trivialize or normalize death or suffering is not what we need to do. We can acknowledge that it's bad and hard, and yet point people to God and his faithfulness, and ultimately point people to Christ, the suffering Messiah who has saved all of us.  
  
I'm thinking about something you said, Jimmy, about churches and what they normally do in terms of the ethos and the thrust of their ministry. If all you're generally doing for people is earthbound in that it's all about this life - if it's how to have a better marriage or relationships or finances and it's earthbound in that way. Honestly, you don't need Jesus for any of that stuff because Jesus didn't come for you to have a better marriage. Jesus didn't come for you to have a better handle on your finances. Jesus came to save you. He came to save you from sin, death, and hell so that you might live with God forever as God intended.  
  
This is punchy, but I'm going to say it: if your ministry is filled with earthbound stuff that you don't need Jesus for, then the only thing you can give people when it hits the fan is a bunch of positive thinking and platitudes. That's all you got. And any thoughtful, sane human being listens to that and thinks that is a joke; there has got to be more to it than this. At least that would be my reaction. I don't even know what you're spewing at me right now, but you need to figure it out and talk honestly like a reasonable human being.  
  
Jimmy Buehler: I was going to say a few things, but I don't really feel like I need to anymore.  
  
To bring this to a close, I think one of the things that we just want to give people the freedom to do is to lament and to recognize the difficulty that we are all currently facing. I'm sure there are people listening to this podcast right now that are actually very concerned about the future of their financial situation. I am sure that there are people listening to our podcast right now that are very concerned about what they're going to do for their children. I'm sure there are people listening to the podcast right now that are very concerned about their health, and every time someone comes to the door or a package gets delivered or something like that, they're curious about who touched it. "How did this get handled? Am I going to get sick from this?"  
  
At this point, I think what we want to give people the freedom to do is to lament. Pray to the Lord, ask God for His sustaining grace in these difficult times. There is not going to be one verse or one passage or one tip or one trick that's going to bring that immediate comfort.  
  
But ultimately what we long for is we long for the return of Christ who makes all things right, who takes the powers of sin and death and vanquishes them forever. JP, you were talking about that funeral; what does a funeral point us to more than a wedding? A wedding of the great Bridegroom coming back for His Bride. That is what we long for.  
  
As we close this, let us just say as three pastors that you're loved, that God is good, that His goodness is displayed. As Romans 5:8 tells us, His love is demonstrated for us, that Christ has died for sinners. Turn your eyes to that, turn your gaze to that in this time.  
  
Again, thank you to our members for tuning in, listening, and supporting our ministry. Know that we are so grateful for your love and support during these difficult times. We hope this conversation was helpful and we look forward to bringing more content like this to you in the near future.  
  
Thanks again.  
  
[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/joy-in-suffering-covid19-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/joy-in-suffering-covid19/)

---

### Joy in Suffering: A Conversation in Light of COVID-19 (Transcript)

*Published: April 1, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/joy-in-suffering-a-conversation-in-light-of-covid-19-transcript*
*Tags: coronavirus, covid19, James 1, joy, joy in suffering, Romans 5, trials*

[**Listen to Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/proverbs-where-is-https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/joy-in-suffering-covid19//)

Jimmy Buehler: Hi, this is Jimmy. Today on the podcast, the guys discuss the joy in trial and suffering. No doubt your life has been upended in recent weeks with the COVID-19 virus. We take a look at the book of James amongst other Scriptures, and we seek to help all of our listeners to understand that these passages are not meant to draw us to trials themselves (and the joy of the trial), but rather to the goodness and the grace that we find in Christ in the midst of these trials. In our members podcasts, we seek to go after some of the platitudes and the simplicities (or the oversimplification) of certain churches and approaches to trial and suffering. So we hope this conversation is beneficial to you. Stay tuned.

Jon Moffitt: I think everybody's feeling at the moment that this is definitely a trial. Some would call it suffering because there are people who are suffering. I know in every context - Jimmy and Justin, we've all been on the phone about this - that we have church members going without jobs, that are concerned about their health and the health of their loved ones. We're all feeling this. There are probably people listening that have someone who's sick or have even died as far as it relates to the current trial; we don't want to be insensitive. Justin and I, when the unfortunate Kobe Bryant incident hit the news, we spoke to that about being sensitive when someone dies and how to care for them. We want to be careful not to quote Romans 8:28 here, check the box and say, "Trust God. Everything is going to be fine," because trusting God and "everything is going to be fine" does not remove suffering and pain.

Paul is a great example of this where he trusted God yet his pain remained and it still bothered him. He even said that it bothered him to the point where he asked God three times and God said, "My grace is sufficient." But that didn't remove the suffering, the hurt, and the pain. You have a command from James 1:2 and from Romans 5:3-5 from both these men who tell you to face your struggles and trials with joy, which the way I hear it is, "Fake it 'til you make it. Put a smile on. Don't let the world know you're down. You're a Christian so you better keep that frown upside down." I don't know about you guys but that's what it feels like when you read those verses. That's my initial takeaway. Am I crazy there? In the past, have you guys read it and go, "Yeah, I'm not sure what they are trying to do here."

Jimmy Buehler: Something I said to our church over Facebook live last Sunday is what's interesting to note is the various online Christian communities and how they are processing this trial, this virus, and all of the different things that we are all collectively facing. It's not so crazy here in the Upper Midwest. We don't have the amount of cases that perhaps people on the coastal regions in the United States, or even around the world, are experiencing. I know in Europe it's being very hard hit right now so they're tangibly seeing it. The most that people are facing here is the loss of temporary work, not getting things that they're used to getting at the grocery store, and so on.

But it is interesting to see the collective online Christian community and how they process. What I mean by that is you're starting to see all of the memes and the pictures. I think the Tozer quote is going around - I don't want to misquote him so I'm sure somebody will correct me on Facebook later - but I think it's like "a fearful time calls for a fearless church" kind of thing. Certainly, Scripture is chock full of calls to endurance, perseverance, greater hope, and greater realities that we have in Christ. But one of the things that I encouraged our church is to really treat this as a season of lament: we lament not being able to gather together, to not sing and pray and receive pardon together, that we are suffering. I've been very interested in all the calls to not necessarily perseverance, but all the calls to positivity.

Justin Perdue: I agree with Jon's assessment that a lot of times the way James 1 in particular, maybe Romans 5, but especially James 1:2-4 are presented is a couple of things. First, when you encounter a trial, you just need to smile, be happy, and be joyful because what's going on is just swell. Everything's great. That's not the thrust of the Bible.

To Jimmy's point, lament is all throughout scripture. I sent a reflection out to our church yesterday, the email about lament through Scripture - that question of "How long, oh Lord" is littered throughout the Bible. God's people, for millennia, have been asking that question, have been wrestling with the anguish of the soul, horrible circumstances, and all of these things in light of God and His faithfulness. The challenge and the struggle for the believer is to reconcile those things. My life is hard and yet God is a God of steadfast love. And so those things are put next to one another in Scripture all the time. My initial thought on this is that, like James 1:2, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds." The way that sometimes ends up being framed in the church is that trials, in and of themselves, are joyful - and that's not true. If I was going to blow up one thing today, it would be the notion that trials, in and of themselves, and suffering, in and of itself, is somehow a good thing. It's not - it's terrible. This is where this kind of thinking, like you said, Jon, "Fake it 'til you make it. Put on a smile."

Jimmy, stuff that you are alluding to results to people saying things like, "My cancer is a gift." I don't think that's true; cancer is awful and it's terrible. The statement being made in James 1 or Romans 5 about considering these things joyful because steadfastness, hope, character, and all these things are being produced in you and your faith ultimately is being refined, strengthened, and sustained. It's not a statement about the goodness of the trial; it's a statement about how great our God is who works through trial to sanctify and strengthen us, to sustain our faith, and to bolster our assurance. Because that's what He does. That's the misconception that I know we're going to speak to throughout our time today, but I want to set the table with that.

Jimmy Buehler: I want to be clear that all of us around the mics uphold a very high view of God's divine providence; that He is in control of all things. I really appreciate our church confession which is chapter five, paragraph one of the 1689 London Baptist Confession: "God the good Creator of all things, in his infinite power and wisdom, upholds, directs, arranges, and governs all creatures and things, from the greatest to the least, by his perfectly wise and holy providence, to the purpose for which they were created." I think that is important to help frame this conversation that all of us do hold to a high view of divine providence.; that indeed God is not surprised by things that come upon our life, whether they be a novel coronavirus, cancer, a tragic accident, or anything like that; that all of us pastorally would approach those topics with sensitivity and ultimately point people to a big, good, loving, and providential God.

But at the same time, it is more correct to point people to a good God in trial than the goodness of the trial. I think that's what Justin was wonderfully saying. I remember when we had Chad Bird on a couple of months ago and he talked about the phrase, "I wouldn't trade it for the world." I bet I could go to any cancer survivor and say, "If you could not have cancer, would you want that?" I'm sure all of them would say, "Yes, I would want to forego the months of chemo and different therapies that I had to go through." We want to count it joy when we face trials because it bolsters our faith not in ourselves and the way we handle them, but in God who sustains us. But we don't want to celebrate the trial itself in an almost masochistic sense.

Jon Moffitt: John Calvin's commentary on Romans 5 - he made a statement that stunned me; I sat back and literally had to contemplate for about an hour. And I think he's right. He says this: "All sorrows we endure contribute to our salvation and final good," which immediately people are up in arms about the concept of contributing. But if you understand what James and Paul in Romans 5 are saying, that trials and struggles expose our sin and our frailty. The confession, even when he was quoting chapter five, point three, in the Providence of God, it says that He allows us to linger for a time in ongoing sin so that we will have a greater dependence upon God. What passage did they reference? They referenced Romans 5.

I think that's a fair example that when we head into a trial, when we find ourselves in the midst of this trial - and he's not speaking of sinful trials (I think there are spiritual, physical, and sinful trials) - and Peter says you're going to suffer. Don't suffer for the sake of your own sin.

Let's be clear here: not all trials are because you've done something sinful, but it's exposing the weakness of your flesh heart. We are so easily enthralled by the comforts and ease of this life that when we face a trial, trials test our comfortability; it's the only way, otherwise it wouldn't be a trial. Why else would you call it a trial? So when you're talking about a spiritual trial, you're probably being persecuted for your faith. You're being attacked for standing up for your view of marriage or the Bible or sexuality.

When it comes to a physical trial where you have some kind of sickness, pain, suffering, or for instance, coronavirus, what it's attacking is our comfortability of life. It reminds us that this life is not what brings us hope. This life is not the end of all means. It reminds us that this place is broken; it is destroyed by sin. The only thing that makes it right is what is to come, which is our hope. This is why in Romans 5, he starts with "our hope is the faith in Jesus Christ" and then he ends with the glorious hope to come. I couldn't agree with John Calvin more when he says that trials contribute in that it bolsters our faith, it strengthens. Of course, trials can't make you saved but they definitely can strengthen you in the one who is saving you.

Justin Perdue: One way I might articulate that, Jon, in agreeing with you and agreeing with Calvin is if we think about ourselves, we've all gone through trials before. If we've been in the faith for long, we've been through a period of trial and suffering, and because we're still sitting here, people listening to this show and the three of us today still trusting Christ, we can give this testimony. And this is a lot of the utility of trial. We go into something that is hard. In particular right now, and thinking about the COVID-19 pandemic, we're talking about something that has happened to us.

Jon Moffitt: Like you were saying, Jon, this is not something brought upon us by our own sin directly. It's a result of sin in terms of the curse, right? This is an Ecclesiastes, Genesis 3 world kind of reality. To use the language of 2 Corinthians 12 - Paul's thorn in the flesh - he'll talk about boasting all the more, not only in weaknesses, in insults, in persecution, but even calamities. Calamity is really what we're going through right now. It's happening to us. If we could change it, we would; it's hard. As we go into this, we are going to experience a season of time where we will suffer in various ways. The kind of left-to-ourselves reasonable conclusion is to doubt God, to struggle, to not trust Him, and to question everything with respect to what He's revealed about Himself and about His Son and the way of redemption. When we make it through this trial, which we will by God's grace, on the other side we will look back and we will see that f we could have left Christ, we would have. If left to myself, I would have punted the faith.

Justin Perdue: Yet here I am today still trusting the Lord and casting my hope upon Christ. How in the world did that happen? We conclude that my faith is not my own; God is the one who gave it to me; God is the one who is sustaining it; God is the one strengthening and confirming it in the midst of and through horrible circumstances, not apart from them. It's a powerful testimony to the faithfulness of God to keep us in the faith. A lot of the value of trial is that it refines our faith in that sense. We realize all the more, as our confession says in chapter 11.1 at the very end of that first paragraph on justification talking about faith, it says, "And this faith is not their own; it is the gift of God." We learn that all the more through trial - it strengthens us and it bolsters our assurance.

Jimmy Buehler: I have two things. The first thing, I want to make a statement; the second thing, I'm going to throw out a question, let you guys wrestle with that, and we can all collectively wrestle with that. But the first thing I want to say is, as we talk about our faith being bolstered, I have found great comfort in passages like Psalm 13, Psalm 46, and even Isaiah 53 where Isaiah 53 gives us a picture of Christ as the suffering servant. In those times where we are experiencing great suffering and calamity, we remember that we do not have a God who is distant from this. This is something that I have said to our church, but Isaiah 53 gives us this wonderful picture of a Jesus who is not distant from sin and death, but rather a Jesus who allowed himself to be crucified by it, was buried by it, rose again, and defeated those things. That is key: that we look to and we behold, as God's people in these times, the finished work of Christ.

I'm mindful of Jesus in the garden before his crucifixion. "Father, if there is a different way to get this done, can we do it that way? And yet not my will be done, but Yours." Even Jesus himself wrestled with earthly suffering, so to speak. I guess the question that I have for all of us to consider is: we are big on what we call the ordinary means of grace - the gathering of God's people to have our faith strengthened through outward and ordinary means - and so in this time where all of these things are lacking, what do we encourage people regarding that?

Jon Moffitt: I think we always have to use extraordinary circumstances. Back in the day, they used letters. Paul spoke of letters that were sent to him. He sent letters to other people for the sake of encouragement. We are reading a letter from James and we are reading a letter from Paul for the sake of encouragement. I think the early church used whatever means possible to encourage each other. I think that we can do the same here in extreme circumstances. Paul, in prison, says, "I'm in prison right now. Can you send me some stuff? Because I can't get out. Can you send me somebody to encourage me and can you send me my books? And I could also use a jacket." I think, in a way, Paul was trying to encourage himself best he knew how because he couldn't go hear the preached word. He couldn't receive the table. In circumstances where we find ourselves today, that it is not ideal; it is not best; it's not what we want. Every day I long to hug one of my church members, to hear communion given to me by one of my elders, and to see people doing corporate confession. I cannot wait. Online is kind of like eating fast food. It's necessary, but it's not what I want. I have got to eat. And you know what happens when you eat fast food long enough? I do it on vacation - it's called indigestion. And I think we're all going to get it eventually. Spiritually speaking, we're all going to be like, "I need to be cleansed through the preaching of the word."

To answer your question, Jimmy, I think we got to hold our nose and wait for the sovereign God to do what He's going to do. JP, I know you want to answer that but before I move on (because I'm afraid I'm going to lose this thought), I want to go back to something that both of you guys were saying. Hebrews 4:15 has become such a precious passage for me. It says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses." And I love that in the trial.

The reason we can have joy is that in my trial, what is being exposed is my hope in something that is other than God. What I'm hearing from Hebrews is Jesus knows; he understands. Then he says, "but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are yet without sin." He has also experienced those temptations, maybe not the same exact ones as I have because some are based upon my sinful nature (theological debate), but where I take comfort is that in the midst of these trials, my Savior understands how I feel. I go through these trials because he's peeling back that which is distracting me from where the real sense of joy and the real sense of hope is. All of us who are doing this online stuff and virtual stuff, we have a sympathetic Father and a sympathetic Savior who understands our circumstances. I trust that in these trials we're going to come out stronger in our faith, not weaker.

Justin Perdue: I will quickly answer Jimmy's question and then offer another thought. My brief answer to the question of what do we do right now as men who uphold a very historic, reformed understanding of the ordinary means (and it's appropriate that we do that)? We need spiritual nourishment and God has told us how to get it. But then, in this season where we're providentially hindered from gathering, what do we do? My thought is these are exceptional times, under the providence of God, that we are kept from the ordinary means and I trust that God will give extraordinary grace in this season. That's the message that I'm going to continue to hold out to my people in our local church: God's got this. This has not surprised Him; God has been faithful to His people throughout history, whether we're talking about exile or Babylonian captivity, or we're talking about persecution when people were in prison and they're providentially hindered from gathering with the people of God.

God sustains and gives grace, and I trust He's going to do the same now. You can trust the Lord. We're pointing people to God and His character, His goodness, His faithfulness, His grace, and telling them to rest there even as the ordinary means are kept from us for a season. So that's the short answer on that front.

I want to pick up on stuff that you guys are saying. One thought is that God is very careful and loving in the ways that He uses our sorrows. He is not frivolous and wasteful with them. He spends our sorrows well. I'm mindful of Psalm 56:8 where David will use the language of, "You've kept my tears in your bottle. You've kept count of my tears." God is aware; He is not distant and removed and cold-hearted towards us. He is intimately involved in all of the things that we go through, including our suffering, and our trials. He's aware of every tear and so He's going to spend those sorrows well and not waste them one bit.

I, too, am comforted, as you brothers have said, in thinking about whether it's a Hebrews 4 reality, an Isaiah 53 reality, or the Garden of Gethsemane reality that Jesus knows what it's like to suffer. He knows what it's like to experience anguish and the dark night of the soul; I find that to be a great comfort. I know Charles Spurgeon would say, in thinking about depression and melancholy and the dark night of the soul, he would say there are times when believers are going through things and they're not even comforted ultimately by the hope of heaven. They're not even comforted ultimately by the realities of the cross. But they are comforted tremendously by the Christ of Gethsemane because they see in Jesus a God who took on flesh and a Savior who knows what it's like to suffer and to hurt. He can empathize with us in our pain and in our weakness. It's a phenomenal thing to reflect on in this time as we're wrestling with anxieties and all the stuff that's going through our minds and hearts.

Jimmy Buehler: I want to take a bit of a turn here. I'm sure that you guys have seen this floating around: the popular post and repost that says during this time, we Christians can show that church has never been about the building - it has always been about the people. Certainly. I don't know any churches that outwardly worship their building. (Speaking from a church plant context, a building just sounds really nice, to be honest.) One of the things that I want to push against is this whole idea. For one, we all agree that church is about the people, but that's the problem. People can't gather right now. I don't know what good that post and repost is doing.

Justin Perdue: I'm not quite sure where the other than trying to demonstrate.

Jimmy Buehler: Church is about the people, but I can't even bring you stuff because it's got germs on it. So there's that.

But here's the other thing that I wanted to say: I want to come to the defense, or maybe come to the offense, against this whole idea of seeing who is really committed at this time. "We're really going to see who the real Christians are." What does that mean? Like the people that are suddenly reading their Bible more? I don't know. To the listener out there, you're living in a really awkward time and I don't want to put that Law on you that it's like, "Well, you have all this extra time at home. You better be filling it with fruitful and productive spiritual exercises." I don't think there's a template of God's expectations of us during this time, more in our situation that we can't come together and we are a people of prayer, but I don't think it's anything outside of the normal rhythms and activities of your everyday life.

It's not like we all of a sudden are going to become like A+ Christians during this time. I don't know about you guys, but our tempers are raging in the home right now.

Jon Moffitt: That's normal for the wintertime.

Jimmy Buehler: For us, too, it's still cold up here. Maybe where you're listening you can go outside and take a little walk because it's 70 degrees. But here it's still in the 30s. We're like, "I just need to go outside. Never mind. I'm not going outside. It's too cold." Just to bring you comfort again, what Justin has said so well that these are extraordinary times, and we trust in God's extraordinary grace even to point us to the 1689 chapter five, paragraph three, it says, "In his ordinary providence, God makes use of means."

So in His ordinary providence, and in ordinary everyday life, we recognize that the way our faith is strengthened is through the outward and ordinary means of word and sacrament. But we also see in paragraph three that though God "is free to work apart from them, beyond them, and contrary to them at His pleasure." And so I think we just find some comfort there that God is going to sustain us, not because of our grip to Him, but rather because of His grip to us through the gospel, through Christ.

Jon Moffitt: That is so encouraging.

Just to tag on quick to what Jimmy and what Justin just said: for me, in the midst of this trial, the thing that encourages me (and that I'm trying to encourage other people with) is that there is no suffering that goes unused. What I mean by that is sometimes, when we hear God works all things for good, we're thinking, "Well, my finances aren't good, my health isn't good, and you can't bring this person back to life." I guess you could but you haven't, and so that's not good. We are so connected to what this world has to offer that we think the good is here and now. I honestly don't think Paul means that in Romans 8:28 and I don't think it's meant here either. Calvin, when he said that quote, he says our final good is the good in the glorious state we find ourselves in.

All of the sufferings that comes into our life is used to keep our focus, which is so easily pulled onto anything but Christ. It's never used except to give us hope and assurance and to help us persevere. One, Paul flat out says that and so does James - it is to strengthen our perseverance, which is for our final good. Just to comment on James really quick in light of final good, James 1:4 says, "And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." There's no way he means that now because that would contradict the rest of Scripture of us being sinless, which is impossible.

What he's saying is your trials produce joy because you know your trials are what will keep your faith, which is going to perfect you. It's an eschatological idea: he's pushing you past your current reality to your ultimate hope. If the trials that you're facing doesn't do that, you're losing sight of the gospel because the gospel does not promise recovery now, it promises recovery in his return. Trials keep us in that temporary state of hope. Don't hope in this life because it will constantly let you down.

Justin Perdue: Along those same lines, Jon, I'm mindful of Psalm 77 written by Asaph. A number of the songs that Asaph pinned are very gripping in this way. He begins Psalm 77 talking about his own anguish and difficulties that he's experiencing. He is crying aloud to God and he's seeking the Lord in his time of trouble. He is acknowledging that his hands are stretched out in the night and his soul refuses to be comforted. Psalm 77:3 says this, "When I remember God, I moan; when I meditate, my spirit faints." Even those things are not helping him right now.

Psalm 77:4, "You hold my eyelids open; I am so troubled that I cannot speak." I trust that many people are listening to me read those verses right now and they're like, "You read my mail." That's how they feel in the midst of this suffering, in the midst of this time where we are kept from other human beings and from community. "I'm worried about my job and I've got loved ones who are sick." Or maybe, "I'm sick and I'm afraid for my physical wellbeing." So Asaph goes on to wrestle with God in Psalm 77, "Will the Lord spurn forever, and never again be favorable? Has his steadfast love forever ceased? Are his promises at an end for all time?" He asked all these questions.

Where does he go? Jon, you were just talking about the eternal hope that we have and the rock-solid promises of God to us in Christ Jesus. Well, Asaph in Psalm 77 says here's what he's going to do: “I will appeal to this, to the years of the right hand of the Most High.” And he's going to remember the mighty deeds of God. Where he ends up going in the last few verses of this song, he thinks back to God's mighty work of deliverance in Exodus. He talks about God's way being through the sea, " your path through the great waters; yet your footprints were unseen. You led your people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron." He's going to think about the fact that God is a Redeemer, that God is a Savior, and that God is a Deliverer.

In our context, we are looking to the greater Exodus that Jesus has accomplished on behalf of his people, where we have been not just delivered from bondage and slavery in a physical country, but we've been delivered from bondage and slavery to sin, death, and the devil. When we can't sleep, when our eyelids are held open, when we moan, and our spirit is fainting, we recall the fact that our God is a Savior and that He has promised us life with him forever through Christ and that He saved us. That's the ultimate comfort. And sometimes people are like, "Well, how does that help me? How does it help me right now and the things that I'm going through?" We just continue to hold out the hope of Christ and say, "Brother, sister, this doesn't take the pain away. This doesn't remove all fear, but this is your hope and confidence. And when everything is falling apart around you, this is your hope instead."

Jimmy Buehler: JP and I were discussing this yesterday over the phone: realistically, as you look at the book of Psalms - the Bible's worship and prayer book - over one-third of the Psalms begin with the posture of asking God where in the world He is. Where are you? Psalm 13 - I shared this as a meditation with our church last Sunday. All Psalms of lament have a very similar outline. The first chunk typically begins with a crying out to God: "Where are you? Why is this happening? What's going on? Can you please answer my questions?" The second chunk of the Psalm is asking God for faith and for help.

And then the last part is, as JP talked about, we remember the deeds of the Lord and his faithfulness in the past. Even Psalm 13:5-6, "But I have trusted in your steadfast love; my heart shall rejoice in your salvation. I will sing to the Lord, because he has dealt bountifully with me." You think of the Psalmist as he wrote this. He is recounting deeds past. Even greater for us now, under the beauty of the new covenant, that we can look back to Jesus Christ and his finished work; that we can look back to the gospel and what God has declared over us in Christ; that we are indeed holy, made righteous, made pure, and made blameless in His sight.

Even as we think about this virus and the threat that it brings, statistically speaking, are you going to die from this virus? Probably not. Now don't take my non-scientific word for it but whenever something like this - a pandemic or some sort of crisis - comes up, we start to wade through life and death. Our faith is not in how we weather the storm. Our faith is not in how well we execute the Christian life during a crisis, but our faith is where it always is in good times and bad - and that's in Christ and Christ alone.

Jon Moffitt: I want to read a quote from CS Lewis that I read in an article by Horton, which I think was super helpful. I posted it on the Theocast Facebook page. I can't remember the name of the article, but the quote from CS Lewis says this, "Do not let us begin by exaggerating the novelty of our situation. Believe me, dear sir or madam, you and all whom you love were already sentenced to death before the atomic bomb was invented: and quite a high percentage of us were going to die in unpleasant ways."

The point of it is that what we tried to preserve here in this life is just futile. We're going to all die most likely a painful death. You can try and live your life preventing that or you can understand that "My hope is not here. I found my place - a resting place - is outside of my current circumstances. This is not Debbie Downer. This is not giving in. I'm not saying you shouldn't concern about your health or that you shouldn't wash your hands. I mean the exact opposite of the article and what Lewis is saying, but what he's saying is that the world has not changed from the fall just because of the coronavirus or the atomic bomb or the plague. I guess it's a way to sign off with hope.

Justin Perdue: Lamentations 3 is a familiar passage to many people, but sometimes we gloss over it. We quote verses 21-25 all the time and we don't quote them mindful of the context in which they occur. Jeremiah is called the weeping prophet for a reason; he writes a lot in the book of Jeremiah and lamentations about horrible realities that the people of God are experiencing in Jerusalem under Babylonian captivity. He is just repeatedly talking about how the people have been reduced to cannibalism and eating their children, and all these kinds of things in the suffering is just terrible and unmitigated. He even talks about his own lot, the wormwood, the gall, the bitterness, and all this stuff. Then he immediately interjects in the midst of that flow of thought: "But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope: The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end."

He goes on to talk about how God's mercies are new and all of those sorts of things. “'The Lord is my portion,'” says my soul, 'therefore I will hope in him.'” If you read Lamentations straight through and you get to those words, they're almost shocking. Where do these words come from? They would be shocked if the Bible were not full of the same kind of stuff all throughout Scripture. The suffering and the plight of fallen man, and our pain is placed right next to the steadfast love and faithfulness of God; how those things hang together in every detail we do not fully understand. When we start trying to overstate that relationship, we do stupid things with it and we misrepresent God or we misrepresent pain. What we want to uphold here is the reality that life is hard and our God is a God of steadfast love. He rules and reigns, and He will work all things for the eternal good of His people. And what we are called to, in the midst of suffering like now, is to encourage one another to trust the Lord and to keep trusting Christ.

Jimmy Buehler: This has been a really good and helpful conversation. Forgive me guys; I was just actually texting another group of friends and told them that we were recording right now and I'm like, "I'm just really encouraged." It's good. Even though we're socially distanced, I'm grateful for the technology that God has given us in his common grace that we can still gather.

Thank you to the listener for tuning in to this conversation. We hope and pray that you found it helpful. Far be it from us to ever leave you with something to do, but if we could encourage you with something, please pray for your pastor. Encourage him, shoot him a text, tell him that you love him and that you're supportive of him. These are extraordinary times - it's very difficult and requires a lot of wisdom as we think about shepherding God's people. So pray for him. God will sustain you during this time. Keep your eyes upon Christ.

We're going to pop over to our members podcast. If you would like more information about getting involved there, or what it means to be a member, you can head to our website wordpress-1294806-4720887.cloudwaysapps.com where you can find more information of what it means to be a total access member. So again, thank you for tuning into this conversation and we hope that you found it helpful as you seek to rest in Christ.

[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-joy-in-suffering-covid19-transcripts/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/joy-in-suffering-covid19-members/)

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### MEMBERS: Proverbs: Where Is Jesus? (Transcript)

*Published: March 25, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-proverbs-where-is-jesus-transcript*
*Tags: Church Discipline, preaching, Sin*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/proverbs-where-is-jesus-members/)

Jon Moffitt:

There is so much pressure in Law put on people to fulfill some of these Proverbs. For instance, the one with 22:6 about your children.

Justin Perdue:

The parenting stuff is just bondage.

Jon Moffitt:

Or Proverbs 31, which we never even got to. I just wish it was the Proverbs 31 man and the poor women would have just been left alone because there are podcasts, books, blogs, the Proverbs 31 conference. And these poor women are given this standard of living. Jesus fulfilled every pressure you are feeling right now. And no man in his right mind and should ever expect that from a woman. If he does, you have every right to correct him. I was going to say, pick up a baseball bat and hit him, but that's probably not helpful.

Justin Perdue:

Proverbs 31 for women is kind of like Ephesians 5 for husbands where they both are just absurdly applied. If Proverbs 31 is like, "Be this woman," and then Ephesians 5 is basically like, "Husbands, be Jesus for your wife. Sanctify her. And your kids too, by the way." Anyway, that's another conversation for another podcast.

Jon Moffitt:

Here's a question, Justin: someone might say, "Is it wrong for a woman to aspire to be the Proverbs 31 woman?"

Justin Perdue:

Of course not.

Jon Moffitt:

I would say, why are you trying to aspire to do that? And if it is, "I love my husband and I love my kids and I just really want to give them grace and mercy and kindness," that's fine. But if you're doing it because you think you're earning favor before God or earning anything before God, you'll never be enough for God to give you approval cause He's not going to give you approval in that way.

Justin Perdue:

I agree with that. Is it okay for a woman to aspire to these things? Yes, but with these caveats: Are you trusting Christ for your righteousness and standing before God completely? If the answer is yes, okay, proceed. You should understand that these things are given to you so you can look and say, "Those things are good and I want to pursue them from a position of rest and safety and peace." If you understand that, then let's proceed. I'm not saying chase after this so that you can earn something in the eyes of God. Or chase after this so your marriage is just going to be perfect all the time if you're this kind of woman. Because that's not true. You're a sinner still and you're married to one, and so there are going to be problems that arise all the time.

We need to be careful about how we talk about it. Then we can uphold it as the good thing that it is. Here are some things that describe a wise person: a woman who is seeking to love her husband and love her family. There are some principles here that we can certainly glean but to place that upon people as like the grid is crazy town. I don't want to digress too far and get us way off track here, but Proverbs 31 is interesting in terms of the woman described there. When we think about some of the conversations that are had in evangelicalism, about women and what they should be doing or shouldn't be doing, like headship and management of the household and all these things. I see a pretty strong woman who is managing a household in Proverbs 31 and that's not often discussed.

I'm going to say things that are going to get me in trouble, but hyper headship and pietistic dudes in the church will take Proverbs 31 and say all kinds of absurd things from it while ignoring the fact that this woman is strong, assertive, make decisions, very entrepreneurial, and resourceful. She is what we would call today a strong woman, and so many guys just sort of poopoo that idea. They talk out of both sides of their mouths and I don't want to rant about that for a long time.

But you were talking about selective application.

Jon Moffitt:

There's a chapter in Chad Bird's book Upside-Down Spirituality called "Love Will Not Sustain Your Marriage: The Failure to Find Our Soulmate". What is really helpful in this book is that Chad dismantles this theory that you have to find the right person and you fall in love, then love will be what sustains it. As I just think about the Proverbs 31 woman, there's a phrase that Chad uses in this book - I'm going to pull it up because I found it to be extremely helpful if you put the pressure of your spouse being the perfect person: they complete me, they fulfill me, they make me feel loved, they make me feel happy. He says, "To expect all that from another person is not to ask them to be a spouse. It's demanding they be a god." And I was like, "Yes, absolutely." To look at Proverbs 31 and say, "I'm expecting this of you without grace and mercy." Ecclesiastes comes in and says, "Okay, we are messy, we are dirty, we are frail, we are broken." Life is a massive pancake batter splatter; it's everywhere. That's what life is. It's not the swimsuit model. It is the mom that has had been puked on and the dad who has been underneath the car and you come together and you say, "I love you because of what Christ has done for me and the joy I get of caring for you." That's real love. But yet the whole market and Disney dignifies it into saying, "No, real Christianity and real love looks like this."

Justin Perdue:

Just to circle back briefly before we move on to another piece of Proverbs: for men to read Proverbs 31 and measure their wives up to that standard without grace would be just like women measuring their husbands against the standard of Christ with no mercy and grace. Again, in Ephesians 5, husbands are told to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. There's also the language of what Jesus did for the church, sanctifying her, washing her in the water of the word and all that we say stupid things about. If you were to take those verses and rip them out of context than what Paul is exhorting the church to, then you would say all kinds of things in place, all kinds of requirements on husbands that are absolutely flat out impossible.

We need to be thoughtful in how we apply things. This goes back to redemptive-historical framework realities, covenantal framework realities, Law-gospel distinction realities, and just understanding the context of the book itself whether it's Proverbs or Ephesians. Because Paul is speaking into a corporate reality in the church, talking about mutually submitting to one another in love and reverence for Christ. Then he gives examples of certain relationships: husbands and wives, parents and children, slaves and masters. And we do ridiculous things with those verses. We rip them out selectively, interpret them in a vacuum, and start extrapolating them out to mean 19 different things. Hardly any of those things that we think they mean are accurate.

Jon Moffitt:

I did mention Song of Solomon so I thought we'll probably end up doing a podcast on that sometime. I'd like to spend the rest of our time talking about this and how the Song of Solomon has been butchered so badly for so many years.

Justin Perdue:

You and I have never talked about Song of Solomon until right now.

Jon Moffitt:

This will be an interesting conversation because we are having a live on-air conversation where we might not agree, which I'd be shocked if we don't. Have you heard the theory of how Song of Solomon is a picture of Christ and the church?

Justin Perdue:

I have.

Jon Moffitt:

And is that your theory?

Justin Perdue:

I want to hear what you think first.

Jon Moffitt:

I do not think that is what that book is about. So now what do you think?

Justin Perdue:

My answer is maybe not as hard of a no as yours. My answer is going to be that I think it is primarily no. So I think it is primarily about the husband and wife and all of the things depicted. I think in a figurative, metaphorical sense and understanding that we are the bride of Christ, I don't think it's absurd that that application is made though. I think it's secondary at best. That's how I would frame it.

Jon Moffitt:

Maybe tertiary. I don't know. When I read, "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth! For your love is better than wine;" I'm just like...

Justin Perdue:

I agree that it's absurd. Do I think that the primary application or the primary understanding of that text is this is Christ and the church? No.

Jon Moffitt:

So what's the primary purpose of the text in a redemptive-historical understanding?

Justin Perdue:

From a redemptive-historical perspective, where I get the idea that it's not absurd that we would apply this ultimately to Christ who is, who is the Redeemer and the King of his people, is when you see every good thing depicted in the King and in that sense, the bridegroom in Song of Solomon. I do think it points to Christ in that regard. But then you clearly have a man and a woman described in a romantic marital relationship as well. But I'm interested to hear what you think, Jon. How would you answer that question from a redemptive-historical perspective?

Jon Moffitt:

I think there are a lot of things in Scripture that are helpful but aren't directly. For instance, I still think Proverbs is not directly connected. When you look at the story of redemption and how it's unfolding, there are parts that are helpful to Israel; they're there to govern Israel and to impart wisdom or instruction but they're not necessarily paramount. In other words, you don't hold this either. I don't believe Jesus is in every verse of the Bible but I believe every verse of the Bible is about Jesus.

Justin Perdue:

We interpret every text in light of Christ.

Jon Moffitt:

My point is you cannot read a verse of the Bible and not connect it to Christ. Correct. But it's not connected to Christ in the way in which we think it's connected to Christ. For instance, if you were to look at the story of my life. In the story of my life, I lived in multiple states, I've been to multiple countries, I've been married, and I have four kids. You could look at the tenor of my life based upon all of these events that had happened. Now, there are certain things that have absolutely shaped my life and there are certain things that just became a part of my life. When you look at Scripture, this is the hard part and this is why people sometimes balk at it, when we say Jesus is in every verse of the Bible, they're like, "How is Jesus a part of Song of Solomon 1 and 2?" They balk at the idea that he's there. The same thing about Proverbs. There are certain sections of the Old Testament that are just pure narrative. This is how I think the Song of Solomon is a part of Scripture, in a part of the narrative, in that the history of Israel has a horrible history of sexuality - just dirty, vile, and disgusting. Time and time again, God is mad at them. At times He even kills some of them for their debauchery; the golden calf scenario is pretty bad. Then there are multiple times that they just fall into really bad sexual sin. Song of Solomon is written in such a way where there is purity and it is glorious to people who are appropriately using sex in an appropriate manner and reflecting the intimacy of love and care and what romance could and should look like. I think in its primary purpose, it's almost setting straight what the world has corrupted for many, many years.

Justin Perdue:

In that regard, if you were going to press me on the primary use of the Song of Solomon, I agree that it is a depiction of a man and a woman with proper uses of their sexuality in a God-honoring, God's design for male-female relationship, within the covenant of marriage. I think you're exactly right. It's a corrective to what Israel has been doing and has been corrupting. In that regard you could look at it as a figurative, anecdotal in one sense, presentation of Law in terms of here is how marriage should look. Here is how these things should go: compare this to how you have corrupted it and stand ashamed and condemned in one sense. I would be thinking first use of the Law in that regard. Then also upholding it as a kind of second and third use picture of things that we can look to and say, "Yes, this is a good guide for me as I consider my life as a husband." This is a good guide for the ladies in our midst who are married to think about their lives as wives, and for those who aren't married even to consider how God has set these things up. And then in a secondary sense, we can make some comments as I alluded to earlier about - Christ in his fulfillment of all things and how we will be in as described in Revelation. We will be the bride of Christ forever. So I do think that there is some sort of consummated fulfillment of this. Just like we would talk about other kinds of depictions in Scripture or prophecies, even where the immediate meaning is there and we should take that and use that well, and then oftentimes there is an ultimate fulfillment behind it too. And that that's I think how I understand Song of Solomon in a nutshell.

Jon Moffitt:

They struggle with Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, and Proverbs when it comes to a redemptive historic understanding. Because it's easy to see redemptive historic when we start without him and go through the story of how God is going to redeem His people from Genesis all the way until you get to Matthew; each event is a part of that story until you get to certain sections where you hit the brakes and say, "Wait a minute. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with those."

Justin Perdue:

I agree. I think this is where uses of the Law and all these kinds of things come into our hermeneutics in terms of how we understand the Bible, which I described the uses of the Law with Song of Solomon a minute ago. I do think this is where I would press back - not so much against you, Jon because I think you and I pretty much agree - but against people who say there is no notion of Christ being the fulfillment of every good thing in terms of the husband in Song of Solomon. I would just press back against that and say I don't know if that's true, that there's no foreshadowing of Jesus in this at all. I think there is some though I agree that you can't, in the immediate context, just take every verse and apply it to Christ because that would be very irresponsible.

Jon Moffitt:

I completely agree. I think in total, the Song of Solomon can and should be applied as Christ in fulfillment. The problem is when someone says the affection between the two in Song of Solomon is the affection between Christ and the church. I would say, "I'm not going to call you a sinner. But in context, and even the greater context, I struggle with that."

Justin Perdue:

It's a sexualized presentation and it's just not appropriate.

Jon Moffitt:

But I will say that if you and I tried to apply Song of Solomon to our own marriages, there are definitely some things in here that we could learn: how to be romantic, etc. But the point of it is that in the end, if I tried to apply Song of Solomon separate from the gospel and separate from mercy and kindness, I'm going to fail and I'm not going to find it.

Justin Perdue:

You're going to fail in your application of it. Full stop. Which is why you need Christ in the gospel.

Jon Moffitt:

Just like the Law. The Law shows us God's holiness and our unrighteousness, and I think the Song of Solomon can show us the purity of sexuality. Because unfortunately, our culture is pressing more and more. I'm not shocked, not upset, and not mad because unbelievers are going to act like unbelievers. But what I am disappointed in and sad about is that the Christian culture has been so trained to think like the world. This is when Paul says do not be like the world when it comes to sexuality. The way we think about sex is completely like the world: it is a self-centered, self-focused, self-gratification moment. I say go back and read Song of Solomon. There is absolutely enjoyment when it comes to sexuality. But Paul flips it on its head, Jesus flips it on its head, the Song of Solomon flips it on his head; that all of marriage, including intimacy, is about how we give mercy, grace, kindness, joy, and serve the one we're getting married to.

Justin Perdue:

It's about the joy and service of your spouse. The presentation of marriage and Song of Solomon in one sentence is like the positive exhortations in the Law where God tells us to do these things because they're upright. That's effectively what Song of Solomon is on the face of it. This is how it's done. Like this is upright and pure and good. Then by comparison, when we consider our own corruption and how we have just hijacked sex and romantic relationships, we do see our own wickedness and the fact that I have failed these six ways from Sunday. That's a primary application of it. And then being upheld as a model. I think we've circled the wagons a couple of times on that.

Jon Moffitt:

You have four kids, I have four kids. It is going to be an uphill battle to help them understand that sex is wonderful. It's God-honoring, it's God-given, and it's God-glorifying. It's not dirty, it's not vile, but it can be. And it is when Satan gets a hold of it, just like anything. Let's just talk about friendship. Friendship is wonderful and glorious but it can be damaging and horrible and vile and bitter. It doesn't even have to be sexual - just friendships in general.

I have three teenagers so I'm really feeling the pressure now. I need my children, when they think of sexuality, to think of it from a biblical standpoint. The way my parents grew up, sex was always bad and negative unless you were married.

Justin Perdue:

The church fell off the other side of the horse on that.

Jon Moffitt:

There's a side of it: how do we reclaim that which is pure and holy? Because guys have tried to do this and they either are too funny or they are too vulgar. And I'm like, "Listen, this is not a vulgar conversation. This is a private, precious conversation that we need to be serious about."

Justin Perdue:

I think about Ed Young Jr. down in Texas where he and his wife are going to have sex on the church roof every night for a week because the church is trying to help people in their sex lives. Mark Driscoll wrote that pretty descriptive, and graphic at points, in terms of things going on in his marriage sexually - not saying it prescriptively, but descriptively. I don't know if we need to be going here. So it is a battle for us to think about in light of Song of Solomon and wisdom literature in general. There are a lot in Proverbs about sexuality as well. I'm preaching Proverbs 5 this Sunday and it's all about the adulterous man. And so we're going to be considering sexuality; "Our Weakness, Sex, and the Gospel," I think is the sermon title. How do we handle this? How do we talk honestly to our people without being crude, vulgar, or suggestive, but being helpful? Also, not to paint sex as though it is evil because it is not. It's a real thing. We have to try to do as pastors, and just as Christians in the church, to help each other.

Jon Moffitt:

When I did premarital counseling, I had to tell people who I've been counseling, "Listen, you actually are in disobedience here. And the longer you participate in this relationship outside of marriage, you actually are missing out in the joy of what Christ has for you." Because there is no joy in sin. And I know you think you're enjoying yourself, but you're actually not. Then they explain to you why. Tim Keller wrote a book called "Meaning of Marriage", and they have a section in there on sexuality that I thought was really helpful. I'd recommend the book in general. It's a really good book. It's probably the only book I recommend for marriage counseling.

Justin Perdue:

I think that Paul Tripp's "What Did You Expect?" is useful from a self-awareness perspective.

Jon Moffitt:

Especially when someone's kind of blowing it up.

Justin Perdue:

The two books that I'll have people read in premarital situations are Keller's "Meaning of Marriage" and Tripp's, "What Did You Expect?" Because it primes the pump for the conversations. Your marriage is going to be hard because you're in it, and you need to be more mindful of your sin than the sin of your spouse - the kind of Law-judgment condemnation cycle that we all find ourselves in marriage. Tripp does a good job of pointing those things out.

Jon Moffitt:

This is been a great conversation. I hope at the end of this that you find rest and enjoyment; if you're married, that you have some clarity on Song of Solomon, and you can go and read the Proverbs, enjoy them, and understand that Christ is your fulfillment and that there are some helpful wisdom in there. But don't apply everything as if it's law. I've wanted to say this in the regular podcast: when you said Solomon says to his son, "Obey my laws and you shall live," well, he died. You always have to think of what he means by that. Let's be smart here.

Justin Perdue:

A very brief word on that. I think one of two things can be meant there, and I lean towards this: Solomon in writing is inspired by God. He is writing as a proverbial father to a proverbial son. When he says, "Keep my commands and live," I think he is pointing to the commands of God in those moments. And I think that's the primary interpretation. Because obviously he cannot mean, "Do what I'm saying and it's going to go well," because you have to relativize what out of that to make any sense of it. I think that's a Law-gospel distinction moment anyway.

Jon Moffitt:

Thank you for listening. Theocast is still in the process of raising funds. We are working very hard to improve bringing more material and more content. Justin already spoke this morning about two more books that we would like to work on and provide for you. The issue is, and I'm sure you understand, that we don't have the time nor the capacity to produce this stuff though we want to produce the content. We need money to then have it edited, printed, and put out there. Your money that is supporting this membership is what keeps Theocast growing. It keeps it alive. And we are still trying to raise more money so that we can expand it and grow so more people can find rest in Christ.

Thank you for your ongoing support and we will see you soon.

[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/proverbs-where-is-jesus-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/proverbs-where-is-jesus/)

---

### Proverbs: Where is Jesus? (Transcript)

*Published: March 25, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/proverbs-where-is-jesus-transcript*
*Tags: Legalism, Old Testament, Pietism, Proverbs, Proverbs 31 Woman, Redemptive Historical*

[**Listen to Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/proverbs-where-is-jesus/)

Jon Moffitt:

Hi, this is Jon. Today on Theocast, we are going to talk about one of the most popular books in the Old Testament that most people read: Proverbs and Ecclesiastes - the wisdom literature of the Old Testament. We try to explain what is the purpose of these books, how we often use them inappropriately, and how we bring Law into our life and actually ignore the gospel. We explained the three uses of the Law, Law-gospel distinction, and a redemptive historic understanding of scripture as it relates to Proverbs. If you have no idea what those are, this podcast is definitely for you.

And then in our membership section, we continue this conversation into the Proverbs 31 woman. We also talk about the purpose of the book Song of Solomon. We hope you enjoy.

Once in a while, we like to go through the Scripture and pull out different books or passages and bring some helpful insight where there's possible confusion. We do a series called "Dazed and Confused" - in particular, Romans 8:28 would be a great one that we could do. Today we are covering probably the most read, if not the second most read book in the Bible. I guess you've already seen the title of the podcast so you already know; it's already a giveaway. We're going to talk about Proverbs and actually, connected with Proverbs, we'll explain how Ecclesiastes goes with it. If someone has grown up in a Christian household, they probably have read Proverbs and Psalms in rotation more than any other book probably 50 times more than any other book because they're simple. You don't have to read an entire chapter of Proverbs; you can read four or five Proverbs in a day, have enough wisdom in there for you to try and apply, fail, and come back the next day.

There's quite a few of them; the same thing with the Psalms until you hit Psalm 119 where everybody freaks out and tries to break it up into sections. But what we're going to really unravel and expose is how pietism and legalism change the purpose in the design of Proverbs; you end up losing the value of it. You end up putting pressure into Proverbs in your own life and you personalize Proverbs in ways that Proverbs, we're going to argue, was really never designed to be internalized. It was actually supposed to be designed to push you out of yourself.

Before we get started, I thought it would be fun to choose our favorite proverbs. I wanted to give you my favorite proverb. We'll talk about this a little bit: the Proverbs 31 woman. There are all of these pressures that are put on women. It's printed in every room in my house to remind my wife and to remind my daughters of what God expects them to be. I think that it's interesting that there are certain proverbs that we don't seem to apply and we don't seem to think there's much wisdom in them. So I want to take Proverbs 31, specifically how it's always addressed to the woman and how she's supposed to be. I'm going to read two verses at the beginning of the chapter, verses 6 and 7, and this is what the proverb says: "Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more." That is a proverb. I did not make that up. Some of you are grabbing your Bibles right now because you don't believe what I just read. (That's ESV by the way.) It's is in there.

So, Justin, give us some relief, my friend. You've been preaching through Proverbs; let's help the listener and the reader get some clarity on what to do with Proverbs. If you've been listening to Theocast for a while - you're enjoying the cross, legalism is bad, pietism is bad - it will seem like Proverbs is just jam-packed full of pietism. Where's the release valve and how do we turn Proverbs from being guilt-driven to actually finding joy?

Justin Perdue:

There's a lot to do just by way of setting the table, and that's what we're going to spend the next chunk of time doing, and then we'll consider the book from a higher level. Proverbs is often poorly represented. For most of us, as you've just alluded to, the book has not been something that's been very life-giving or encouraging. A lot of times, if we're honest, we don't even know what to do with it because - especially for those of us who are reformed and have maybe never heard it taught - it's sadly not preached very often for some of these reasons that we're talking about. Because people are like, "I'm not quite sure what to do with this," because there's just all of this imperative, exhortation, wisdom, and the like. And it's going to surprise none of our listeners who have been with us for a while that we want to begin talking about Proverbs by discussing some high-level theological categories.

We'll start with the redemptive-historical framework of the Bible where we understand the main point of the whole Bible: all of Scripture to be God's plan of redemption that He has accomplished through Jesus. That's really important as we come to Proverbs when we consider even the covenantal framework of the Bible. In the beginning of the Scripture in the early chapters of Genesis, we see that God made a covenant with our first parents, Adam and Eve. He told them things that they were to do and he gave them a prohibition that they were not to eat of this one particular tree and Adam and Eve, as we know in Genesis 3, broke that covenant that God had made with them; therefore, the curse and judgment came. That covenant is referred to theologically as the Covenant of Works. Had Adam kept the covenant that God made with him, he would have lived on in perpetuity and perfect relationship with God. But given that covenant was broken, not only did judgment come, but in Genesis 3:15 God made another covenant with Adam and Eve and thereby all of Adam's posterity that we call the Covenant of Grace, where He promised a Redeemer who would come. Underneath that Covenant of Grace are a number of other covenants subservient to it; this begins with the Noahic Covenant in Genesis where God promises to sustain the world, but also the covenant God made with Abraham where He promises to make out of Abraham a people, that every nation would be blessed through Abraham's promised seed, and that Abraham's people would have a land forever.

We know that those things are ultimately fulfilled through Christ and will be consummated in the new heavens and the new earth. There is also a covenant that God made with Moses in which he gave the Law, which we understand to be a reissuing of the Covenant of Works, not formally, but with respect to what God requires, it's terms, and how we are to live. And then God also made a covenant with David that one of his sons would sit forever on the throne of righteousness; it is in that particular era of the Davidic Covenant that we find Proverbs. In fact, David's son Solomon wrote the majority of the Proverbs. It's helpful for us to hold all of that in view in terms of redemptive history and where we're situated in the Bible.

Jon Moffitt:

That was a great overview. For those of you that are new to Covenant Theology, welcome to the intro. We have some renovations on our website and awesome books. Just go to our website, go to "Recommended Reading" and there are some books you can read there.

The hardest part of reading Old Testament literature, specifically something like Proverbs, is that we always read it encapsulated as if it's its own book. The Scriptures are a library and in this library that holds books happens to be Proverbs. If you were to walk into a library, you have fantasy, you have history and then you have wisdom - and so we're going to grab wisdom. But that's not how it was written. It wasn't written disconnected from the story of redemption that started in Genesis and is now flowing all the way through the book of Revelation.

So when you think of Proverbs, you have to look at it in its historical setting, which is taking place during the time of David underneath the Davidic Covenant. If you don't understand the Davidic Covenant, this is vitally important: there's a promise given to David that one of his sons is going to sit on the throne and perfectly obey the Law. And when he obeys the Law perfectly, he will earn the eternal kingdom. He will earn the right passage to God's kingdom forever. So Solomon is born, and then Solomon thinks this is him so he builds the temple. Of course, God clarifies again, "No, you don't understand. It's definitely not you. Look at your life." He needs perfection. He needs absolute perfection. And so from that moment on, you hear the stories of this king who lived right in the eyes of God but was imperfect. This King was horrible. It was up and down and up and down. And this is why we're waiting for the coming King when you finally get to Matthew, right? You're waiting for the coming King. And what does Jesus do as the King, the Messiah, the King of the Jews? He perfectly obeys the Law and therefore earns rite of passage into the eternal kingdom for all of the people of God - not just the Jews.

Justin Perdue:

The greater David who is to come, the Davidic King, the Messiah would fulfill the Law for his people's sake. It's the very clear witness of Scripture that his obedience within be representative for and be counted to all of his subjects. And he, through his righteousness and obedience, would bring his people into the kingdom of God forever. So it's important that when we go to Proverbs, we keep all of that in view because the Mosaic Law is still a thing, right? And so we're under the Law and the people are looking for the Messiah, the Christ who is to come, who would fulfill the Law and sit on the throne forever. So you cannot read Proverbs divorced from those redemptive-historical realities or you will go all kinds of astray.

Jon Moffitt:

At this point in history, you have the promise given to Adam and Eve. The Law we know already exists because it's the first five books of the Old Testament. David would have known of the Law; he even says, "I love Thy Law," in his Psalms. The Abrahamic covenant consists inside that Law; it's in Genesis. So they understand that from Abraham there is to come a seed; it even says through Judah, there is to come a King, and from that King, all the nations will be blessed. And so they understand these promises because they lived under the Law. The Law was read to them as a people. It was a part of their culture as the Jewish nation. So the Messiah is not foreign to them. So when you read Proverbs, you're not reading it disconnected from the history, from the Law, and especially from the promises of the Messiah. Because Jesus actually comes and every command that you see, every wisdom literature that's written in there - Jesus is the final fulfillment of that.

Justin Perdue:

We don't need to bury the lead, right? As I'm preaching through Proverbs 1-9, I am very clear, redundantly so, that Jesus is wisdom personified. He is wisdom fulfilled. He is wisdom consummated, wisdom provided. Whenever we see all of those things described in Proverbs, we should be seeing Christ in those regards. But then inevitably, we're dealing with another thing that we talk about a lot at Theocast, which is the Law-gospel distinction because the book of Proverbs is full of imperatives. Just like the Law goes where Solomon will write to his proverbial son and say, "Son, keep my commandments and you will live."

And we look at that and we say, "Oh my goodness, this sounds just like Moses when Moses says to do these things and you will live by them." There are a lot of that in Proverbs where we have to parse Law and gospel to help people realize that the uses of the Law are in full effect.

As we come to Proverbs and look at these imperatives, some of it is wisdom (as you and I were talking about before we even came on). Then there are promises attached to some of the commands. When we see that, we should think first use of the Law where we're told do these things and we'll live; we assess ourselves in light of that: we have not done what we're commanded to do and we look to Christ who has done it for us. The second use of the Law is to restrain our corruption, right? So when Solomon will write to his proverbial son he says, "Do these things, son, and your life will go well."

Jon Moffitt:

Or do not walk in the streets where you're going to be tempted at night.

Justin Perdue:

Correct. Don't hang out with people who plan and do wickedness all the time. It'll wreck your life. The adulterous, right? "Do not go there, son, because it will absolutely destroy your life." And so that's the second use of the Law which is the restraint of our corruption because we see that there are promises associated with doing good, and there are punishments and suffering associated with doing evil. It curbs our corruption. In the third use of the Law in Christ Jesus, we see a guide for our living - but it's Christ who has done it. We're safe, we're good with God, we've been reconciled to Him, and now we can consider these things in thinking about how we love God and also how we love our neighbor. There is nothing in Proverbs that is not vertically oriented in terms of love to God or horizontally oriented in terms of love to neighbor. Proverbs is packed full of stuff that makes you useful to your neighbor. You will be a better neighbor if you think in these ways and apply some of these things. But they're not to be just internalized and turned into this hyper introspective thing that we often do, thinking that if we just take these things to heart, our lives are just going to have this nice clean upward trajectory all the time. That's not the promise of Proverbs at all.

Jon Moffitt:

You dropped some massive categories in here. I want to unfold them a little bit just for the listener that might be new. If you are new to Reformed theology and to Theocast, and you hear Law-gospel distinction, you are probably saying, "I think I know what that means, but I'm not sure." It's imperative for you to properly understand scripture; it's critical to understand that there are ways in which the Bible presents itself. So a law is God's commandment for you to obey, and then if you do that, you are then accepted in His eyes. And if you do it perfectly, you're accepted in His eyes and considered righteous and shall live. Do this and live right. As an example, the 10 Commandments states, "do or do not do" - and the obvious of those is you're acceptable in the eyes of God. The gospel has no "do" and it has no "should" because that's not good news. So the Law is always "do" or "should do", the gospel is always "done"; receive. So the gospel is good news. Jesus has accomplished the Law. Not only has he accomplished it, but did it on your behalf - and that's what we receive. We receive as the good news, one, forgiveness of our failure of the Law, and two, we receive the righteousness of Christ. That's the gospel. So when we say a Law-gospel distinction, when you read Proverbs, you have to have that in your mind.

Because what we will do is we think, "If I do this, God will accept me." That's actually Law, right? You have to be careful there; you cannot turn that into the gospel. Also, the three uses of the Law which we have, we have brothers who would say they don't agree with us, specifically like our Lutheran brothers, which I love, and even some of our reformed brothers that would say we don't believe in the three uses of the Law. And I would say they do - they just don't verbalize it that way. Because if you practice church discipline, you believe in the third use of the Law.

Justin Perdue:

I know for a lot of our people, Jon, they've never heard of the three uses of the Law as they come to CBC. They're learning this for the first time. In preaching a sermon recently, they're hearing this language of the three uses of the Law - first, second, and third use of the Law - and they go, "I've never heard that before, brother. Where is this coming from?" To try to help people, comfort them, and ease their minds a little bit, I said, "We could talk about the history of it and all the rest some of their points in time. But just think about how you live with your brothers and sisters in the church. And how you talk all the time. The three uses of the Law are clearly in use and in view for you." For example, when you're dealing with a brother and sister in the church who is in sin, and you say to them, "Look to Jesus. He is your righteousness." What is that? That's the first use of the Law. Yes, you have failed. Look to Jesus who has done everything perfectly for you. That's first use. Second use. Whenever you look at somebody and you say, "Brother, do not go there. What you're doing is dangerous. It's going to wreck your life." What is that? That is the second use of the Law. It's restraining human corruption. And the third use: whenever you look at one another and you, in Christ Jesus, plead with one another, pray together that God would give you grace, that you might live unto Him, that God would keep you from sin, that we would conform our lives even to what God says is good and bad, we're acknowledging the third use of the Law as the guide for our living. Whether we want to acknowledge these categories formally or not, we all talk this way, think this way, plead this way, pray this way in the church. And so all we're trying to do is put handles on that for people. This is not new to us. This is very old.

Jon Moffitt:

As we try to help point you to confessions and Reformers to help you understand that this is not even a denominational movement; these are men trying to unpack and unfold Scripture, which is our final authority. It's just helpful to use. For instance, we use things the word "Trinity" to help explain very complicated concepts. I have to say one word and you immediately understand what I'm saying. So when we say Law-gospel, it's just another way of saying a word like "Trinity". It helps clarify categories for us right away.

I want to go back to what a comment you had made. If we can keep the three uses of the Law and Law-gospel distinction, and more importantly a redemptive-historical understanding (meaning that the Bible is about redemption and it unfolds through history), when we look at Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, there is wisdom in there that is not attached to promises that we can hang our hat on. For instance, out of reading Proverbs 31:6-7 where he gives an exact command, he's saying, "Go do this." If I don't obey that imperative, am I in sin if I don't get give strong drink to those who are perishing? Because you and I have experienced congregants who are perishing; am I in disobedience because I didn't take a bottle of wine or bourbon into the hospital and give it to the person? Do you see what I'm saying? When you get so hyperactive about obeying Scripture, yet we actually don't think about what we're doing. You would say, "Well, Jon, no." But then you'll go to another proverb and say, "If you don't do this, you're in sin." Let's understand the context here. Israel, unfortunately, had a horrible history of falling in pact with paganism. Over and over again, they would go into captivity, they would worship false idols, they would get into all kinds of sexual and cultural sins that were just debauchery. You've got a wise man who was blessed by God with wisdom saying, "Son, the world's pretty messed up. I need to give you some wisdom here. Some common sense for the day."

Justin Perdue:

Common sense for the day in light of God's truth. I want to make this comment now before we move forward. We've already referenced Ecclesiastes a few times. Ecclesiastes was written by the same man who wrote the majority of Proverbs and it's critical that we hold those two books in tension. Ecclesiastes is a very honest treatment about life under the sun in a fallen world, and the futility and the toil that we often encounter in our day-to-day lives. The fact that death is real, and the fact that death tramples on every good thing that we have, that every good thing we have in life at some point will be a memory; it will just be gone. It's important for us to hold Proverbs and Ecclesiastes in inappropriate tension and not cancel the one with the other. In thinking about that, it's important to remember some of the things that Proverbs will not do for you. If you read the Proverbs and take them to heart and apply them appropriately and all the rest, it will not do the following: Proverbs will not deliver you from the fallenness of the world, it will not guarantee you good circumstances, it will not deliver you from all suffering, it will not keep you from the toil that characterizes life under the sun, it will not keep you from ever knowing heartbreak, it will not deliver you from pain and sorrow altogether and will not keep you from groaning (I think about Romans 8: you will groan the entirety of your days on earth as you await the redemption of your body). Also, Proverbs will not deliver us from the struggle against sin. We will still fight our corruption and we will not be delivered by Proverbs from weakness. It's really important that we realize these things and that we are not guaranteed, in abiding by proverbial wisdom, that things will never fall apart in our lives.

Not trying to be like a broker for Satan's doubt here at all, but it's important that we hold scripture together and not be irresponsible in the way that we approach Proverbs. We uphold it for what it is: it's wisdom in light of redemptive history. There are promises that are made in it that are ultimately fulfilled in Christ in our place. There is guidance for our living and all that, that's certainly true, and we're taught the difference between wisdom and folly, the difference between righteousness and evil. And we're taught how to be all kinds of good for our neighbor. In looking at Proverbs, we can learn much from it but we ought not turn it into something that it was never intended to be.

Jon Moffitt:

Understanding the difference between wisdom and promise, there are things in here that are helpful: "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." That's a great promise.

Justin Perdue:

Trust in the Lord and not yourself is good counsel.

Jon Moffitt:

That's wonderful. But there are other sections of Scripture where you need to understand the context and what I call general wisdom. If you have children, you do this with your children. If you have employees, you do this with your employees. You give them some general counsel of saying the general rule of thumb is this is not helpful, this is not wise.

I'm teaching my son how to hunt. I got him a shotgun and I'm giving him some rules that in general, if he applies those rules, he'll be safe. But it's not a guarantee that he's never going to get hurt. And those are the things that you have to be careful with. When it comes to the gospel, there's nothing that separates you from that promise; that's a guaranteed promise. Understanding that Jesus is the final fulfillment of all wisdom and promise, that everything that you have ever been commanded to do, including what's in the Proverbs, is fulfilled by the ultimate, which is Christ. So understanding where the context is - if you read that, it releases the pressure of everything that's in Proverbs thinking, "Unless I do this, I'm going to be an unwise, foolish person that God's never going to bless." Wrong. You have all blessings in Christ Jesus. The final promise and fulfillment is here. When you read Proverbs now you read it in light of what Christ has done for you. The promise is kept by God. Then understand that a lot of these instructions are helpful for me to be a better neighbor to my wife or my children to the congregants. A lot of what is said in Proverbs is reiterated by Paul in Ephesians and Galatians: because it's about temperament and patience and graciousness.

Justin Perdue:

Romans 12 and following are another section. It's very proverbial. I might look at a few verses in sections of Proverbs really quick and just make some comments that might be helpful to the listener. I want to begin with Proverbs 1:7, which is a very famous verse for good reason, that reads this way in the ESV: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction." The first comment on the latter piece is it is important for us to know that that in our natural state, born into a state of sin, we do not like instruction and wisdom; we are opposed to it. We need to start there and that's important. But that first piece, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge," let's ask ourselves what that might mean. The fear of the Lord, the reverence of the Lord, would entail what? First of all, it would entail knowing who the Lord is. We know something of His character and His nature and His holiness. Then in knowing and fearing the Lord, we would know and understand what He requires, which we've already discussed. It's laid out for us perfectly in His Law that He requires perfect fulfillment in obedience to that Law. And so in knowing who God is and knowing what He requires, I then assess myself and I am undone - I'm ruined before him and I am immediately driven outside of myself to Christ who has met God's standard and fulfilled God's Law perfectly for me so that I might dwell with this Holy God forever in perfect relationship with Him. So right out of the gate in Proverbs, we get this very redemptive-historical, the first use of the Law thing going on.

As we make our way over into chapter 3, I just want to briefly touch on what you referenced, Jon. Proverbs 4:5-6: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths." Trust in the Lord and not in yourself. That's a wonderful exhortation because first of all, trust Christ in the gospel and not your own righteousness. When the Proverbs uses the language of straight paths, there's often the juxtaposition of the path of the wicked and the path of the righteous. The path of the wicked are those who are going to be removed from the land and cut off - that's what Solomon even says. The path of the righteous are those who will inherit the land. How should we understand that? Again, we're talking about the righteousness of God counted to sinners by faith in the Messiah. We cannot escape any of those things. Even chapter 16:6 where we read, "By steadfast love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for." Whose steadfast love is that and whose faithfulness by which iniquity is atoned for is that?

I just want to be very clear here: people are asking, "Is Jesus in the proverb?" You better believe he is. He's all over the place as our righteousness and atonement, and as the fulfillment of everything described by way of wisdom for God's people. And I would argue that if the beginning of knowledge is the fear of the Lord, you could put right beside that the beginning of wisdom is trusting Christ. At the bottom of wisdom is trusting Jesus to do for you what you could never do for yourself; relying upon him alone for your standing before God.

Jon Moffitt:

I want to bring a couple of famous Proverbs that are used ones used by parenting classes or parenting books. Proverbs 22:6, "Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it." It seems like people have tried that Proverbs and it doesn't seem to work so either they didn't train up their child right or the proverb is wrong, or maybe we're not understanding the proverb. But Proverbs 22 is chock full of all kinds of interesting instructions. Let's keep reading it. Verse 12, "The eyes of the Lord keep watch over knowledge, but he overthrows the words of the traitor." "He who loves purity of heart, and whose speech is gracious," and this is a fun one, "will have the king as his friend." These general rules of thumb - what is the meaning? You have to understand that these are what we call general principles of wisdom. For instance, I tell my child, "if you don't speed, you'll be safe." That is if the people around him do not speed, are not drunk and they don't hit him.

Justin Perdue:

That's exactly the Ecclesiastes piece that we've been bringing up over and over again. Take Proverbs 22:6, it says, "Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it." And then this same Solomon is going to come in Ecclesiastes and say, "In a Genesis 3 world, things fall apart and go badly." Or, like you just said, if you drive by the speed limit and be an attentive driver, you will be safer. True. But then in Solomon, in Ecclesiastes, he is going to say, "But there are a lot of really bad drivers out there on the road and you could do everything right and still be in a car wreck."

That's not to say that like the wisdom in Proverbs are not right and good and true - they are. But then Solomon again is going to come, put his arm around our shoulder and say, "But it's not always going to be clean and it's not always going to go this way." There will be things that fall apart because life under the sun is full of toil, futility, and vanity because of the curse. I jumped on a joke about Ecclesiastes and Solomon there is talking in a way that we are very uncomfortable within the church. We read Ecclesiastes and we're like, "You shouldn't talk like that." He says, "I'm just describing things the way they are." "Well, you shouldn't say that." "Okay, maybe not, but this is how things really happen. I'm just calling it like it is." "It shouldn't be that way." And then Solomon's like, "I agree with you, but it is this way. So now, what are we going to do?" And I think it's important that we hold these things in tension to where we apply Proverbs in an appropriate way. Like you had been wonderfully describing, Jon, it's general wisdom to be applied and realize, like that verse about raising your kids, you could do everything right and things could still go poorly in your child's life. And it's not that you have been unwise. It's just that so much depends on grace, the fallenness of the world is real, the power of sin and corruption is real, and therefore we're constantly looking outside of ourselves to trust the Lord. Even in our best efforts to apply wisdom, it's not infallible.

Jon Moffitt:

Even at the end of Ecclesiastes, you scream, "Where's the Messiah?" When you finish reading Ecclesiastes, he says this is the end of the matter: Fear God and keep His commandments for this is the whole duty of man for God will bring every deed into judgment with every secret thing, whether good or evil. That's how he ends. And you're going, "Where's the hope, Solomon?" He's like, "It's called the Covenant of Grace. It's called the promise of the Messiah."

Justin Perdue:

It's called Christ is coming.

Jon Moffitt:

We need to move into the members podcast. I think we can speak a little bit more about Ecclesiastics and then maybe even throw in songs of Solomon. We’ll see how that all comes in, just one book after the other. But it's been a wonderful conversation. If you want to participate with us as we continue with this conversation, they go from anywhere from 20 to 40 minutes depending on what the topic is. That's our membership podcast. It's just a simple way for us to continue the conversation and that's where we relax a little bit more. It's not as prim and proper. It's for those who want to jump around the table and enjoy. Often we will answer questions that we get from our listeners. You can join that by going to Theocast.org and look for our total access membership - there is a 14-day free trial. Most importantly, what that membership does is it actually supports us so that we can get this message out to more people around the world through the podcast, articles, and books. We have more books coming out as well as our transcripts. So you can go and read those as well.

Thank you for listening. We'll be speaking to you next week.

[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-proverbs-where-is-jesus-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/proverbs-where-is-jesus-members/)

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### MEMBERS: How Much Can a Christian Sin? (Transcript)

*Published: March 18, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-how-much-can-a-christian-sin-transcript*
*Tags: Church Discipline, preaching, Sin*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-much-can-a-christian-sin-members/)

Justin Perdue:

Welcome to the members podcast. We hope that the regular portion of the podcast was encouraging to you. We encourage you to give this episode out to those you know who are struggling with sin and think that they've done things that could never be forgiven, that repentance is not something that they could do, that God could not accept what they have done. We hope that it would be an encouragement to people like that, and honestly, it's an encouragement to all of us as we consider the reality of our own corruption.

Jon Moffitt:

When I was in seminary, we had a preaching class. It was painful because you typically had guys who get really excited by listening to a really famous preacher, and they want to be like that guy. The seminary that I went to realized that they were producing guys who could not preach - they knew their exegesis, they knew Greek and Hebrew, they knew their history, and they got up and bored people to death. It was horrible.

Justin Perdue:

You could have just emailed us your sermon and it would've been more entertaining.

Jon Moffitt:

I was in this class and there are a couple of guys who were pretty decent. We were in class one morning, like 6:30 in the morning, and it was rough as we had to preach that early in the morning. The professor was a seasoned preacher. I think he had been in ministry for almost 35 years. He was highly respected and had a very deep accent. He would say funny things to the guys like, "I would rather eat four tacos than to listen to you preach." It was pretty rough at times. When you get done and you've got no comment, that was a compliment. If you got done and he had a comment about tacos, it was not a good thing. So this guy gets up and preaches about Pharaoh and his hardened heart and just unleashes - Jonathan Edwards had nothing on this guy. It was pretty epic: wrath and hell and brimstone and fire. And he gets done and there's no gospel; it was just flat "God's going to crush you because you're a worm." He sits down after 20 minutes of this and the professor pauses for the longest time and then this is all he says: "Is there no balm in Gilead?"

Jon Moffitt:

I was glad somebody said something because that was the most gospel-less sermon I ever heard. It was just basically saying you're a wretch, you're horrible, and God hates you. Psalms 7:11, "God is angry with the wicked every day." Psalms 5:5, "God hates all evildoers." I agree and I even used those verses last Sunday. I preached on the wrath of God, to which I had one of my deacons come up to me. They normally don't hear me hit God's wrath that hard because I'm trying to explain what's in the text. This week was John 18:11, where Jesus says, "I must drink the cup of the Father, which is the cup of the Father's wrath." Anyway, the deacon was like, "I couldn't wait for you to get to the gospel." I don't have a lot of people in my congregation cry, but there were a lot of tears because the wrath of God is there to lead you to the grace of God. And if you don't get to the grace of God, then the wrath of God is just pure dread. That's all you are left with.

Justin Perdue:

Not only the wrath of God, the first use of the law of God to crush us; not only to crush us but to drive us outside of ourselves to Christ, who has fulfilled the law for us. If we never get to those two places, if all we preach is wrath and then we preach the law as a weapon to crush people, we never give people Christ in our preaching. Like Spurgeon said, you need to quit. You just need to go do something else. Because if there's no Christ in your sermon then what are you doing? You need to go home and never preach again.

Jon Moffitt:

It's like a doctor who doesn't ever help anybody.

Justin Perdue:

When we were at 1517 last October, I remember us having this conversation with a number of people asking this question: was I given Christ in the sermon? That's a great question to ask. If you're evaluating the preaching in your local church context, it's a great question. Was I given Christ in the sermon? Was Christ held out to me in the sermon? Was the grace and the power of Christ extolled to me in the sermon today?

Jon Moffitt:

Where I was going with this is that this gentleman didn't come up with that. That wasn't exactly new. This style of preaching, which is the angry I'm-going-to-jump-down-your-throat, I'm-going-to-make-you-feel-guilty-so-you'll-change-your-ways, which is the point of it. I look at that and I look at Paul and he says, "I don't want to make anything known except for Christ and him crucified." 2 Corinthians 3:18, "It is the glory of Christ that causes us to be transformed into his image." 1 John says the same thing: what we have not been transformed into yet when he finally appears, but in thus we wait in this glorious transition, we purify ourselves as he is pure. The point of it is I want to draw people into repentance out of excitement and joy to what they receive. Because when they repent, they receive grace. Repentance Calvingelical world - the angry Calvinist preacher - basically his repentance means you don't get punishment. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Even the discipline of God is grace; it's not anger, it's grace. The famous sermon from Paul Washer - and I'm not saying everything that Paul Washer says is like that sermon (so for those of you who like Paul Washer, please don't jump down my throat) - but the angry sermon that he was made famous for, that's what I'm stressing. What I'm saying is that he's speaking fear into them and not grace. And grace is what causes us to repent and rest in the joy of Christ.

Justin Perdue:

Paul Washer did come to mind, amongst a number of other preachers, when you were describing a style of preaching where fear is a motivator. It's the whole discernment ministry thing and there's so much that could be said about it. Because of terrible teaching and unhealthy church cultures and the like, have people been deceived into thinking that they are Christians when they probably have never understood the gospel? That's obviously true in our context. Nominalism comes from somewhere and nominalism is a thing, but I will continue to beat this drum as long as I'm breathing. The way that you combat nominalism is not with hellfire and brimstone, and in fear, in condemnation, and law. The way that you combat nominalism - Christianity in name only - is with gospel clarity and union with Christ by faith.

Justin Perdue:

Take up the pattern of the apostles in how they speak to the church. The churches, by the way that the apostles are writing to them, are struggling with sin. The idea that the early church was this golden era is absolutely ludicrous. All you need to read is 1 Corinthians and the conversation is over. That church was a mess just like many of our churches are because there are sinners who comprise it. Paul's pattern in that epistle though is to remind them of who they are in Christ and then to go about talking about how they'd then live together. He's not condemning them and telling them they're going to face the wrath of God.

Jon Moffitt:

This is why Theocast is becoming this mind-blowing experience for people where they're like, "Wow, I've never heard this before." It's not new. The document we're quoting is around 400-years-old and the theology is, of course, from Scripture so it's much older. But the concepts have been around, were written and publicized for many, many years. This is why I criticize the angry preacher is that it's not like these people know better and they just chose not to. I even look at children when I'm out in public. I see a child that is misbehaving in an over-the-top way, screaming and kicking in an aisle and throwing a fit. I look at that and I'm not angry at the child. I'm not even angry at the mom and dad. Even the mom and dad may have grown up in a broken home where they were never even shepherded. Our culture doesn't do a very great job of educating parents on what to do to govern their children. And I look at Christianity in the same way where I'm not upset at him. I'm not angry. With preachers, I get a little bit more irritated with because the Bible does say that they should be careful what they say when they're not careful in what they're saying.

Justin Perdue:

They're held to account. You're standing in the place of God to give God's word to His people and you're spewing a bunch of nonsense. That's a big deal.

Jon Moffitt:

I was watching something on YouTube recently and a Steven Furtick video popped up and so I watched a few minutes of it. There are a couple of things where he seems a lot gentler on now that he's older. He's definitely not as crazy as he used to be. He was like, "Look, I normally have you stand for the reading of Scripture, but this is 19 verses today so I'm going to have you sit." And he started reading through it. As he kept preaching the conclusions that he made, which were total prosperity gospel, he actually feels like he's preaching kindness and mercy when he actually brings the law on people.

Justin Perdue:

He's putting people in bondage. When you tell people that they are conquerors because they have the Lord's Spirit in them, what that means is that they'll conquer all their circumstances. You're going to have a hard time selling that to somebody whose mom just died from cancer, who just lost their job, and everything's falling apart in their lives. And you're telling them, "You're a conqueror because you have the Holy Spirit in you. Maybe those promises are eternal and you might need to pump the brakes on this. Your life is going to go great, and you're a champion." That kind of talk. That's another conversation for another time.

Justin Perdue:

I want to pick up on something that we did throw out in the regular podcast: the issue of church discipline. You said, what about unrepentant sin? What do we do when people are in this sustained posture of high handed, unrepentant, hard-hearted sin? Well, thankfully God has told us what to do in His word. We continually confront that individual. The prescription in Matthew 18, if I may briefly say, I don't think literally means one time you go one-on-one, one more time you go in a group, and then the next time you take it to the church. I think it's a pattern that Christ is laying out for us where you pursue this person individually, and then you take several people to try to pursue this person and call them to repentance.

Justin Perdue:

Finally, after attempts are clearly futile and this person remains dug in, we take it to the assembly to allow the church, the assembly, the ecclesia to act on this. We do this in our church context. It's an instrument to be wielded with grace and compassion and precision. It's not a blunt instrument to bludgeon people with. Sometimes church discipline is almost like a badge of honor that people will wear and they're like, "We practice church discipline because we're trying to weed out the ungodly." That's not the posture that we're advocating on Theocast at all. We're advocating the posture of the apostles and the posture of Jesus. We use this as an instrument that the Lord has given us that we might see our brothers and sisters restored. We do it with compassion. We do it with patience. We do it with tenderness. We do it prayerfully pleading with that individual to repent. The Lord has given us instruments to use when people are in unrepentant sin.

Justin Perdue:

I've commented on this before and I think it bears repeating: the harsh language in the New Testament towards sinners is really reserved toward those who are unrepentant. The struggling saint who is bothered by his or her sin - the New Testament is compassionate toward that person and is very tender in general in its language. The person who is high-handed, prideful, hard-hearted, unrepentant - that's when the New Testament uses that jarring language of "you need to repent". I think that matters for us, too. We're not saying that harsh language is never to be used towards sin. It is, but only in these specific contexts.

Jon Moffitt:

I would say the harshest language that Paul uses in 1 Corinthians is for those who aren't willing to show love and compassion.

Justin Perdue:

And the harshest language Paul uses perhaps in any of his letters is in Galatians where he's defending the gospel from people who are trying to weave works back into it.

Jon Moffitt:

Yeah. That they emasculate themselves.

Justin Perdue:

That Christ is of no use to them and that they have fallen from grace.

Jon Moffitt:

So with church discipline, unfortunately we've had to walk through some of those steps in our own context in our young little church. And it's painful. And we, as elders, we are very patient because we understand people are frail. And this particular situation, this person did not grow up in church. Answering common questions about things that our culture kind of takes for granted, like living together and not being married has them say, "The Bible says something to that? I didn't know that."

Jon Moffitt:

Just common questions about things like that where you have to be patient with people and work through them. Are you dealing with a lack of education? If you are, then let's look at it. Are they like, "No, I don't care. I'm going to do whatever I want and that's just how it's going to be." I had college students who were this way and they got invited. They never grew up in the church. I can think of at least 10 students, when I was there for the seven years I was there. Our service was the first time they'd ever been to church in their life.

Jon Moffitt:

They just assumed what Christianity was like. We would do coffee Bible studies and they would ask all kinds of questions you would think are common, like everybody knows and they didn't. I wasn't looking at the student like, "Oh, they're an open rebellion." They were shocked. Like, "I didn't know the Bible thought that was wrong. I just assumed..." And whatever. That's different than the person who grew up in church, knows what they are doing is wrong, and are like, "I just don't care. I know I'm not supposed to do that." Well, let me explain to you that this is not healthy and not helpful and if you are unwilling to see this, then --

Justin Perdue:

We are mindful too of the context of many of the New Testament epistles. This is in the early years of the church being established and it's a unique era in redemptive history. Jew and Gentile are coming together in the same assembly, trusting God's Messiah, and learning how to live together. If we lose sight of those realities, we'll rip the New Testament epistles out of context pretty quickly.

Justin Perdue:

When the apostles' right to tell the church how they are to live in Christ Jesus with one another, we need to remember that for many of these Gentile believers, they would not have had categories for a lot of this stuff. It's like what you're just alluding to with the college students. These Gentile believers have come from pagan cultures and they're not going to have a kind of morality. I'm using that word. They're not going to have the morality prescribed by the Lord in view. They're not going to be thinking in terms of valuing what the Lord values. They're not going to be thinking about living life together with the way God says we should, and so the apostles are just trying to make this plain to people. "Now that you have come to know God in Christ Jesus, here is how you live life in this community called the church." It's not this stinging epistle. They're not just stinging letters written to people and threatening them that if they don't clean up their ways, they're going to go to hell. That's not the tone and tenor of what's being written. It's much more pastoral in telling people how they're now to live together in Christ because many of them might not have known. They continue to exhort them. "Hey, you used to be that. You're not that anymore. Live this way now."

Jon Moffitt:

For instance, if you put me in a pulpit and the people sitting in front of me were an open rebellion like, "I know this is wrong. I don't really want to repent." Even then I would say, "What is going to truly help this person see that they're trapped?" Galatians 6:1 says that, with the spirit of gentleness and meekness, you are to go to them. If I stand on that pulpit and I come at them angry, I'm not sure I'm obeying what Paul said there. I don't think I am. When I'm dealing with someone who's an open rebellion, I am to reflect to them the meekness and the kindness that God has shown me in how I treat them.

Jon Moffitt:

I'll say, "Do you understand? Let me just take you to the garden real quick." And if you believe you're a believer and you have faith in Jesus, but you just don't want to stop doing this -which I have had those conversations and I know JP has as well - I just say, "I don't think you understand the severity of your sin that you continue to almost wink at and say it's not a big deal. Christ looked at the cup that is holding this sin that you are talking about right now and it caused him to almost have fear unto death. He almost died out of being afraid of facing God's wrath on your behalf. I'm not saying this to scare you. There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I'm hoping you understand the severity of your offense and just how grotesque your sin is in the eyes of God, and that you truly do need to repent and receive mercy and grace in this. Because you will never have the joy you're trying to pursue while you pursue this sin. You're going to actually lack joy." And that's how I have and will handle it.

Justin Perdue:

In the case of talking to people who are an open rebellion, I agree with you in terms of tone. I'm not going to be yelling and screaming, but it will inform me of a few things that need to be communicated - some of which you've already outlined - and I'll be brief: one, let's be very clear on the holiness of God: how He is wrathful against sin because He's righteous and good. What kind of God would He be if He was okay with sin? Then to talk about, as you already alluded to, the horrific nature of sin and what it really is like. I love the phrase like your kind of winking at this and this is so much worse than you could have ever imagined. Then to talk about the work of Christ in order to atone for and satisfy for sin, and also to provide you with righteousness. Here's what Christ has done for you. The union with Christ, by faith, for all those who are trusting in him means that you have been set free from the dominion of sin. You obey because you can now and because by God's spirit, there is a desire for you to obey. The flesh is real but the Spirit is also at work in you. I think those are the ways that you go about it instead of scaring people and scolding them towards repentance. It's more of a winsome pleading. Let's be very clear about the gospel, the work of Christ, and all the rest, and just help them understand that sin will lead nowhere good in their lives.

Jon Moffitt:

One last thought. When Paul says to treat them as unbelievers, I don't treat unbelieving people in my life like I'm trashing them. I treat them with patience and kindness because I'm trying to draw them into the gospel. All I'm saying is that your mission has changed from encouragement to gospel.

Justin Perdue:

Exactly. The big thing that happens if we do remove somebody from the church, in the case of ex-communication, we are ex-communing them. We're removing them from the Lord's table. That's what it means. It's not that they're not allowed at the service. We have people ask, "This person was ex-communicated. Can I invite them to come to service?" Of course, you can. We'd love to have them here. Now they're not going to be invited to the table until they repent, but we would love to have them here so that they can sit under the word; that God might use the means of the word to bring about repentance; even the fellowship of the saints. By the fellowship of the saints, I mean the context of the church. We don't treat our unbelieving family, friends, and neighbors like trash. We love them. The same is true for those who have been removed from the fellowship.

Justin Perdue:

A lot more could be said, I'm sure, but we've gone on quite a while in this members podcast edition. We hope it has been helpful in some ways as we've sort of meandered here, there, and everywhere and talked about preaching and church discipline and several other things.

Justin Perdue:

I want to thank the members again sincerely for your support of Theocast. We do say this and we mean it from the heart that we could not do what we do without your support. Continue to spread the word about Theocast. Continue to give other people the resources to listen to and read. Continue to pray for the future of this ministry as we have big hopes and goals and visions for it. Obviously, it's in the Lord's hands, but the Lord uses people like you to help us accomplish these goals as well. Thank you for listening and we look forward to another conversation next week.

[**Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-much-can-a-christian-sin-transcript/)  
[**Regular Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-much-can-a-christian-sin/)

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### How Much Can a Christian Sin? (Transcript)

*Published: March 18, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/how-much-can-a-christian-sin-transcript*
*Tags: Church Discipline, preaching, Sin*

[**Listen to Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-much-can-a-christian-sin/)

Justin Perdue:

Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast we take on the question, "How much can a Christian sin?" Or to frame it another way, "How badly and for how long can a Christian sin and not necessarily prove him or herself to be an unbeliever?" If you listened to the conversations in the evangelical world, you get the idea that if someone in the church sins really badly, then he or she is definitely not a Christian. Or if he or she continues in that pattern of sin for a long time, he or she is definitely not a Christian. We wrestle with those questions.

Over at the members podcast area, we talk about preaching, and the tone and tenor of it in particular, in light of these realities. We will also consider church discipline. We hope that this conversation is helpful to you.

Topic:

For how long and how badly can a Christian sin and not be lost, and not demonstrate him or herself to be unregenerate? Can Christians sin really badly for a long time and still be in Christ Jesus? This is something that we wrestle with in our experience because we've all seen people in our own local churches who have heinously sinned. They remain in a posture of sinning for an extended season of time. Or maybe even we ourselves have gone through seasons like that in our lives or are in one presently. And we think, "If you only knew what was going on in my life, in my mind, in my heart, or if you knew how long this has been a problem, you would question my salvation. Because I know myself and I'm certainly questioning whether or not I'm a Christian." So those are the questions: Can somebody sin so badly that it means they are not a Christian? And can somebody remain in sin for so long that it means that they are not a Christian?

Jon Moffitt:

This is a good conversation. It falls into the whole theme of Theocast, which is resting in Christ and helping people find joy and assurance.

Jon Moffitt:

A lot of times, when someone is asking me this question, it's not because someone wants to stay in sin. It's not because they're justifying their sin. We are not talking about unbelievers, to be clear, we are talking about people who are actually struggling with their sin; they don't want to sin and they are sinning, or they have done something in the past and they don't know. "Can God forgive me for this?"

This is a jump into the deep water right away, and I apologize if this is maybe a little too much, but I've had to deal with ladies who, before they were a believer, before they came to Christ, they had an abortion. It just horrified them when they realized what they had done and why they did it. They thought, "Can God forgive me for taking a life?" It was not a simple conversation, not an easy conversation. When we think Christianity is ABC, 1-2-3, clean-cut railroad tracks - there's no debris or problem - then a tornado comes ripping through your life and now your life is not what you thought it was going to be.

I'm going to the London Baptist Confession, which is also taken from the Westminster Confession. It says in chapter 15.4, "Repentance must continue throughout our lives, because of the body of death and its activities. So it is everyone’s duty to repent of each specific, known sin specifically." Meaning that Scripture makes it very clear. We know this from 1 John, 1 Timothy 1:13 and 15 that we are going to struggle with sin; we'll get into this a little bit later with Paul and Romans.

The next point is helpful here - it says in 15.5: "God has made full provision through Christ in the covenant of grace to preserve believers in their salvation. Thus, although there is no sin so small that it is undeserving of damnation," which is true - any sin against God is as if you make yourself equal with God. That's why Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden. It wasn't because they ate an apple, it was because they attempted to make themselves equal with God. Every sin is that attempt. It's cosmic treason. "Yet there is no sin so great that it will bring damnation on those who repent. This makes the constant preaching of repentance necessary." Of course, there Romans 6:23 and other passages that we could quote. The confession makes it very clear that if someone acknowledges that what they have done is a violation against God, and they are willing to confess that sin, it aligns with Scripture that there is no sin so great that it cannot be forgiven.

Justin Perdue:

A couple of thoughts. One, whenever people are battling sin or struggling with sin, I think the implication is that there is an actual fight going on, and there's an actual struggle being undertaken. The question that I ask people - and I know you've asked this question to people too, Jon, and we've even talked about this on Theocast before - is not, "Are you sinning?" Because the answer to that question for every redeemed person from all time is yes. The question is, "Does your sin bother you?" The answer to that question for all the redeemed of all time is yes. That's the reality that we live in. It's not that we're not sinning, it's the difference between a believer and a nonbeliever, a saint and a person who is not trusting Christ, is that the sin of the saint bothers him or her.

So that's a great diagnostic question. It doesn't mean that it bothers you as much as it should, because none of our sin ever bothers us as much as it should, but are you okay with it? Or are you like, "I'm going to go on and do this and I don't care what God says." Like you've acknowledged already, even in your reading of chapter 15 from the 1689, repentance is a big piece of this conversation because repentance means a change of mind. A change of mind about what? God and salvation and God's ways with us. But it also means a change of mind about sin. Whereas in our natural state, we love sin and embrace it. In the Lord, having the spirit of God in us, that change of mind has happened where we acknowledge that our sin is wrong. And that's really where we are.

So if our sin is bothering us, we're acknowledging that it's wrong, and we are turning to Christ in faith - that is, looking to his merits and not ours, looking to his righteousness and not ours, looking to his atoning work to pay for, atone for, bear the wrath of God for, satisfy for our sin - there is no sin that is not covered, that is not dealt with in full.

I'm going to read a little bit more from the 1689\. This is from chapter 13 on sanctification; I'm going to touch on a little bit from paragraphs two and three. This speaks to the reality of sin happening in a Christian's life, where it comes from, and the fact that it could endure for a season. It reads this way: "This sanctification extends throughout the whole person, though it is never completed in this life. Some corruption remains in every part. From this arises a continual and irreconcilable war, with the desires of the flesh against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh." Obviously, they're referencing Romans 7 and Galatians 5:17 there, which we're going to talk about more in a minute. They go on in paragraph three to say this: "In this war, the remaining corruption may greatly prevail for a time." I'm going to read that sentence again. "In this war," the spirit against the flesh, the internal war that every Christian fights, "the remaining corruption may greatly prevail for a time." Greatly prevail for a time. "Yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part overcomes." Eventually, right? "So the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. They pursue a heavenly life, in gospel obedience to all the commands that Christ as Head and King has given them in his Word." That will be the end result. But for a season of time, which could be a long time, corruption and the flesh may prevail. It's very clear that that is the experience of believers from all time.

Jon Moffitt:

I'll read one more and then I'll comment on it. Chapter 5.5, which is under Divine Providence, says, "The perfectly wise, righteous, and gracious God often allows his own children for a time to experience a variety of temptations and the sinfulness of their own hearts. He does this to chastise them for their former sins or to make them aware of the hidden strength of the corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts so that they may be humbled." Romans 8:28 talks about this and the providence of it. The point of it is that God is very aware of our frailty; at times He uses it for our own benefit of seeing that we must not depend upon our flesh, but dependent upon something outside of us. Our faith has to be in a work that is outside of us because the moment you trust in your own sinful flesh, the end of Colossians 2 says it's of no value is stopping the indulgence of the flesh with these rules and regulations that we make.

We often think of the big sins - the sexual sins, the crimes that can be committed. And let me tell you this: those are big. But when someone commits those, they receive the same amount of blood washed over them as the small sins. They're both violations against God. And the problem is that people just assume themselves to be better than they are. Here's the confusion: if we have the Holy Spirit, how is it that someone who has the Spirit can perform such horrible acts of sin?

Not only that, but they are repetitive acts. I'm just going to put this out there for someone who is listening and maybe struggling and judging us at the moment: there are several camps out there that are very quick to judge people who don't overcome sin as quickly. Let me point out your acceptable sins - the sins that don't bother you that you sin repetitively, over and over and over again. These are the acceptable sins: the sins of judgmentalism, the sins of laziness, the sins of a lack of faith, or the sin of gossip. Can I keep going? These are the sins that we throw out.

Justin Perdue:

One of the respectable sins that everybody commits, that everybody is pretty happy to admit, is the struggle with pride. When you ask a man to tell you what they're struggling with, almost every person is going to say pride. It's very interesting to me that in the circles that you're pointing out where we're very quick to tell somebody, the guy that says, "I've been struggling in a battle against sexual sin in the form of pornography for 15 years," the response of most people in that scenario is going to be, "You've been battling against pornography for 15 years and you don't have victory over that yet. Are you sure that you're even a Christian? Because if you had the Holy Spirit in you, you would see victory over pornography by this point 15 years in."

Jon Moffitt:

Man or a woman. The reality is that it's not confined to gender anymore.

Justin Perdue:

I agree. I was just illustrating. It could easily be a female and not a male.

I would turn the tables right then at that moment. To the person that is saying, "How do you know you're a Christian if you're still struggling with porn after 15 years?" I would say, "How long have you been a believer?" Let's just say he has been a believer for 20 years and he told me just a minute ago that he still struggles with pride. "You've been a Christian for 20 years and you don't have victory over pride yet. Are you sure that you're even a believer?" And if you're in ministry, it gets even worse. If you're a pastor and you've been in the ministry for 30 years and you're still struggling with pride. My response there would have been, "You've been battling pride for 30 years and you're not victorious over it yet. Maybe you should question your salvation. Also, you're in the ministry. Maybe you should resign because God says that humility is a prerequisite." If we want to really nail this stuff to the wall, that's how we would talk. And of course, we don't talk that way about respectable sins. Jerry Bridges talks about respectable sins. We don't talk that way, of course, about respectable sins, but the heinous ones, we do - the sexual sins and stuff that are very demonstrable in public in nature. You should be looking differently than you are if you're going to still continue to claim Jesus all the while battling pride, gossip, malicious talk, and all those things.

Jon Moffitt:

Or even anxiety. You've been a Christian for how many years and you're still anxious? Do you still suffer from anxiety? Do you worry about everything?

Justin Perdue:

Jesus said not to worry.

Jon Moffitt:

That's right. Be happy. Or anger or bitterness. I'm going to be the first to admit that there are greater consequences for someone who is sexually immoral than for someone who struggles from fear - we're not saying that. The point of it is one is acceptable to struggle with and one is not and that is not what Scripture tells us.

I'm just going to go to Galatians 2\. Paul, for all of eternity, because we know that Scripture will be bound up for all of eternity... We'll make references to two believers who have said and done horrible things in the Old Testament. Abraham - homie was a hoodlum. I don't mind standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Abraham because I don't feel judged by him and I'm not going to judge him. Same thing with David; the guy murdered someone, took someone's wife, and then lied about it for a long time until he got called out on it. Here's the comment I typically get from the Calvingelical world: "But Jon, they didn't have the Holy Spirit like we have the Holy Spirit. So it's not shocking that they live that way."

If you've ever read Galatians 2, Peter, who supposedly was the rock that Jesus decided to build the church on, is confronted by Paul for denying the gospel and treating the Gentiles in a way that he shouldn't have treated them. And he had to get called out for it. Then Paul himself admits the things that he doesn't want to do, he keeps doing them. Then that would mean that he's not a very faithful pastor. And who knows what that list was that Paul had? Paul never tells us what the list is, but obviously it was more than one thing that bothered his conscience.

Justin Perdue:

The spirit of Romans 7 makes it seem like it was substantial in its nature when it leads him at the end of it all, crying out, "Wretched man that I am." He's acknowledging that, "I don't do the things that I want to do and the bad things that I don't want to do, I still find myself doing." He talks about his corruption that remains. In Galatians 5:17, he uses the language quite explicitly about the Holy Spirit being at war with the flesh, and this resulting in you not doing what you want to do. We keep coming back over and over again to these passages - Romans 7, Galatians 5, and the like - because they're so important for us to understand every Christian's reality. The internal war is real. It produces a struggle that lasts the entirety of our days; until we die or Christ returns. And because of the remaining power and corruption of the flesh, we will find ourselves ensnared in sin. We will find ourselves doing things that grieve our Spirit. And it's normal.

I want to be very clear. We are not justifying sin. We're not condoning sin. We're not giving sin a pass. We are simply acknowledging the reality that even though sin is never okay, it is sadly normal for those of us who are still in the flesh and trust in Christ. We are at the same time saint and sinner. And so we will find ourselves doing these things.

1 Timothy 1:15\. It's a verse that many people regularly cite, myself included. I was looking at it recently and I was referencing it in a sermon that I preached at CBC not long ago. I was struck by something. It says, "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." I was just struck by the fact that Paul says, "of whom I am the foremost." He doesn't say, "of whom I was the foremost" as though that was something that used to be true and now it's not anymore. Then he goes on to say, "But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life." In other words, Jesus has been merciful and patient to Paul, with Paul being the foremost of sinners. And the reason that he has saved Paul as the foremost of sinners is so the other saints will look at Christ's mercy and patience shown to him and they will be comforted. That's a wonderful word. Consider the apostle Paul who says that he is the foremost of sinners and that Christ has been merciful and patient with him. And his word to the church is if Jesus has been patient and merciful to him, he will be patient and merciful with you. Because that's who Christ is and that's how he deals with us. Praise be to his name. It's a great message of comfort.

Jon Moffitt:

15.5 , I had quoted this earlier, and it says, "yet there is no sin so great that it will bring damnation on those who repent. This makes the constant preaching of repentance necessary." This is what we started in our church: every week we have a call to worship - I welcome, we read Scripture, and then right after the reading of Scripture, we corporately read a prayer of confession where we pointedly, at times, read how we can acknowledge ways that we have sinned against our God. We are openly, corporately praying a confession. "Lord, we confess that we are guilty of these things." And it's at those moments that we receive grace, we sing songs to the Father, and we then give offering as a response out of the grace received. So I completely agree with the confession that if a believer gets to a point where they're not reminded they need to repent - and I'm not standing up there berating them. The congregation shows up and goes, "I'm ready. I know I have failed. I know I am vile. I know I stand with Paul. I'm the greatest sinner I know in the room right now. And so I want to receive forgiveness."

Justin Perdue:

We're basically, like you said, agreeing with Paul. We're all saying in that moment, "Wretched men, wretched women that we are. Who will deliver us from these bodies of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ, our Lord. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ." That's what we do. I know it's what you do and it's what we do at CBC every Sunday. We get together. We start from the welcome; whoever is leading the service welcomes people. We acknowledge right out of the gate our wretchedness and our vileness and our desperate need for Christ. That's why we're here and we trust that's why you're here. Welcome to church. And so you set that tone from the very beginning and it's what permeates the entire service.

So, yes, repentance. It's funny because there are many people in the evangelical world who are of the fundamentalist stream of evangelicalism. And then there are those who are in the Calvingelical world as well who will talk about repentance in a very threatening way all the time, even towards the believer. This is where we're driving at: repentance for the Christian is not something where the preacher is standing up at the front like, "You all better repent." It's more of, "Brothers and sisters, here is who we are and what we have done this week. We're in Christ Jesus, but here's what we have done this week as sinners." We're still in the flesh. How we have struggled and broken God's commands; we have not kept any of them. We're struggling mightily against our corruption. We are in desperate need of the mercy of God. We need to acknowledge and own our sin as wrong and then cast ourselves anew upon the mercy of God in Christ. That's what we mean by repentance. And we do it corporately every Lord's Day. We're individually doing that in our lives daily.

Jon Moffitt:

In John 15, Jesus says the way that we can have not just joy but his joy and have it incomplete is by doing two commands: one, love the Father and two, love one another. We know from the New Testament epistles that the majority of the instructions that are given are horizontal - vertical is the commands between you and God - but I would say 85% to 90% of the commands that are given to the New Testament believer are horizontal. It's between you and the believer. I always ask people this question: "Can you think of a sin that you commit that does not affect one other person in the world?" It only affects you. I promise you, you can't come up with one because every sin that you commit will affect either you or humanity in general. If you can think of one, sure, email it to me. I think people have tried in the past.

The reason I say this is that you have to understand that sin is not only something you indulge in to try and fulfill a lie that cannot be fulfilled, but it also robs you of your joy. When I'm calling someone to repentance, it's not out of fear. What you could have - the relief, the joy, the satisfaction in Jesus Christ - you aren't having because you're trying to satisfy that with something that Satan has lied to you about. This is why Paul says in Romans that the kindness of God is supposed to lead us to repentance. The father of the prodigal son didn't run out with a switch. He ran out with his arms out. He humiliated himself by lifting up his garment. He threw a party in repentance. Here's what's crazy: in 1 John, and in the confession and throughout Scripture, we are not told that there is a cap limit on your repentance, right? Like, "This is how many you get. You get this many slip-ups. And then once you get to that point, you're done. You don't get anymore. And now you're no longer a believer."

Justin Perdue:

Very quick interjection. I'm mindful of Jesus and his words in Luke 17 when he says that if your brother sins against you even seven times in a day, and he turns to you every time and says, "I repent. Forgive me." Then you forgive him. That's another conversation maybe about repentance. Because immediately in our context, we say, "You've sinned against me seven times today. There's no way you're sincere in that repentance. Once you demonstrate appropriate sincerity, then I'll forgive you." That's not what Jesus said. So you're right that there is no cap limit. Jesus is using seven times as a perfect number where it's like this could happen a lot of times, and you're going to forgive your brother every time.

Passages like Galatians 6:1: "if any of your brothers are caught in sin, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted." I think that happens in an unlimited number of times in the life of the church. There is no cap limit. "Once a person has been ensnared in sin this many times, it's over for him or her." The Bible never speaks that way. Here's why that's true: if we think about the great commandment to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, strength, every one of us breaks that command that every day. None of us have ever done it. If there is a cap limit on how many times we can repent of not keeping God's commands, then we're all done. We're all going to hell because every day we're breathing, we break God's commands and never really keep any of them. Those things are just really important for us lest we think that we're crushing it at the Christian life. Just consider loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength.

Justin Perdue:

If I can read one more thing from the 1689\. Jon, you were throwing this out there: what is it that causes us to fall into sin? We could answer it several ways, but the confession is helpful. This is chapter 17, paragraph three on the perseverance of the saints. It reads this way: "They," the saints, "may fall into grievous sins and continue in them for a time, due to the temptation of Satan and the world, the strength of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation." There we have some causes for it. So, "grievous sins and continue in them for a time." Again, there we go. Really bad sins, really long time potentially due to the temptation of Satan in the world. That's understandable due to "the strength of corruption remaining in them." That's our flesh. Also, the neglect of means of our preservation. "In so doing, they incur God’s displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit; their graces and comforts become impaired; their hearts are hardened and their consciences wounded; they hurt and scandalize others and bring temporary judgments on themselves. Nevertheless, they will renew their repentance," there that is, "and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end." This paints a very realistic picture of what our lives often look like in the church where we sin for various reasons: temptation, our flesh, neglect. Those things bring with them serious consequences at points. Even temporarily, it really can wreck our lives. Yet we will be kept through faith in Christ Jesus to the end. That's the promise of God's word. The confession gets that exactly right when it says that we will be kept through faith unto salvation.

I wanted to pick up on something that was said earlier about the consequences of sin. I'm mindful of the uses of God's law in this whole conversation because in the church we talk in terms of the first, second, and third use regularly: the first use being to show us our sin and drive us to Christ; the second use is sometimes summarized as civil but can be understood more broadly in terms of its restraining our corruption. You keep God's commands; there are promises, you break them, there are punishments threatened. Thirdly, it's the perfect God for our lives in Christ. And we talk this way in the church regularly; when we talk about sin and what it does to us, we often use that second and third use.

if I were to look at you, Jon, and say, "Brother, don't do that thing because it will wreck your life." What is that? That's the second use of the law: it's restraining your corruption. If you do this, God has said it will go poorly for you. If you do that, God has said it will go well for you. That's a motivation for obedience. And then in Christ Jesus, the third use of the law, it goes, "Brother, let's pray together that God would keep us from sin and give us grace that we might live unto Him and conform our lives to His word." This is how we live.

Jon Moffitt:

I'm sure if you got to this point, you want to know about unrepentant sin now. There are two comments I want to make here. The confessions, and Scripture believes this because you can't write Galatians 6:1 unless this is a true reality, that there are Christians who can have a period of time where they are unrepentant.

Justin Perdue:

Or they would need to be restored.

Jon Moffitt:

Right. Or to be confronted. They have been trapped - that's the language of being trapped because when you're trapped, that means you're not willing to turn from it. That's a conversation we need to have. The second part of the conversation goes into pietism. This also goes into the carnal Christian. Someone said to me, "There's no such thing as a carnal Christian," to which I responded, "I think every Christian is carnal."

I think we're going to spend some time on dealing with somebody who is not repentant of an obvious and publicly known sin. I'm going to be frank: we all have sins we don't repent of because we're just not aware of them. We have violated God in ways that we will never know until we get to glory. Those are unrepentant sins, right?

Justin Perdue:

You're talking though about unrepentant sin. That's clear. It's demonstrable. It's obvious. It's been confronted and somebody says, "I don't care that I'm sinning. I'm going to keep doing it." Or, "You guys might call it sin, the Bible might call it sin, but I'm not going to call it sin. I'm just going to keep doing this." That's what you're talking about. My answer to that, in brief, is church discipline is in the Bible and it's there for a reason. We practice it at CBC and I know you do at Grace Reformed. We try to wield that well with precision; we don't like to swing that thing around like a blunt instrument and bludgeon people with it. But it is there and it's a tool at our disposal.

Jon Moffitt:

It's also not something which is rightful of men.

Justin Perdue:

It's not a badge of honor.

Jon Moffitt:

They're like, "We're going to root out the evil." I'm like, "Well, then you're going to have anybody left in your church."

Justin Perdue:

That's right. We are very clear to say that the goal of church discipline is always restoration. It's obvious in the way that Paul writes about it in 1 Corinthians 5; it's clear in the way that Jesus talks in Matthew 18; the goal is always to see your brother or sister restored.

One final thought from me, Jon, to put a bow on this first part of our conversation. When we talk about Christians sinning really badly for a really long time, and none of that necessarily meaning that they are lost or that they're not believers, we are not giving a plug to sin and not worry about it. We're not saying any of that. We're not really making the big deal about sin. The thing that we're trying to champion here is the mercy and the grace of God and how he deals with stubborn, stiff neck people like us.

This has been true throughout the entire history of God's people. It's true of Israel and it's true in the church. We can talk about the differences between the Old and New Covenant. We can talk about how the Holy Spirit is in people. It remains the same that we are, at the same time, saint and sinner. God has always been in the business of saving ungodly people; He has always been in the business of showing mercy to people who continue to struggle against their corruption because they are trusting in the Messiah, the one who would provide them with righteousness and atone for their sin. That's the message. It's not that sin is okay. We're not saying to glory in the struggle. We're saying trust God because He is gracious, merciful, and faithful. Because Jesus is sufficient, he is enough to save even you. If you are looking to him for your righteousness, for your atonement, and for your satisfaction, then you are safe and God's Spirit is in you. He will keep doing His good work in you. You will be conformed to the image of Jesus ultimately and you will be with God forever.

Jon Moffitt:

We say these things because there are some of you who probably will be given this podcast by a friend, and you've wandered away from Christ, you have found yourself entrapped in sin, and you don't think there's a way back. There is no way that God would accept your repentance. The point of what we're saying is yes, He will. There is no sin so long or so great that Christ's blood cannot cover. You can repent, you can turn from it and receive mercy. God's arms are not crossed; God's brow is not furrowed if you are His child. It says in the confession, often He will allow you to get to the point in your sin that you are so weak and so frail. You now understand just how powerful your flesh is and that you must depend on Him. The confession that Justin read said that people stay in sin because they have not used the due use of means, which is the church, the fellowship of the church, the preaching of His word and prayer. That is one thing I wanted to mention. We'll unfold that a little bit more in the members podcast.

Justin Perdue:

So that's where we're headed now - to the members podcast. If you don't even know what the members podcast is, you can find more information about that on our website over at Theocast.org. We offer a 14-day free trial with our total access membership. That gives you access to some premium podcast content as well as other written content and various materials. So avail yourselves of that if you have not done so; kick the tires and give it a try. The membership is a way that we try to support the ministry of Theocast and we are grateful for all of our members who are out there listening. We look forward to the conversation that we're about to have in the members area. We hope that many of you will make your way over there to listen in to what we have to say.

[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/members-how-much-can-a-christian-sin-transcript/)  
[**Members Podcast**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/how-much-can-a-christian-sin-members/)

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### MEMBERS: More Than a Feeling? (Transcript)

*Published: March 18, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-more-than-a-feeling-transcript*
*Tags: Assurance, John Piper, Pietism, salvation, T4G*

[**Listen to MEMBERS Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/more-than-a-feeling-members/)

Jon Moffitt: Welcome to the members podcast. This is where I know that people who have been with us for a while are interested in taking it to the next level. You're here to have a post-conversation. This is where the live button comes off and we may give some more opinionated thoughts or even some very personal takes too. Before we kick this in, I do want to answer some of our listener's questions that they posted on the Facebook group. I will say that I struggled for a time.

I became a very strong proponent promoter of John Piper for many years and I fully embraced Desiring God. I listened to his sermons and there came a moment in my life where I read this book by Joseph Carroll called How to Worship Jesus Christ. The book really tries to take what John Piper is doing and push it to the next level where every experience of Jesus is an emotional experience. Not charismatic, but emotional; to worship him means to have this emotional experience with him. While in seminary, I would wake up at four in the morning and I would try to read and pray until that moment where I felt like I was in the very presence of Christ and there was like this emotional awe. It happened a couple of times.

Then came a time when I couldn't get it to work anymore, mostly because when you wake up that early and you go to bed late, you become tired and you don’t do well emotionally. I would have these emotionally high days where all day long, I felt like it doesn't matter what could happen to me because I've worshiped Jesus that day. And then there were days that were just a dredge and I felt guilty and ashamed. I felt like the desires I had, whether it was what a movie I watched or entertainment that I did or whatever, that those affections were drawing me away from the true affections that I should have had in Jesus. So there were the religious things I did, and then the secular things I did.

We're going to be open and honest. Those are real struggles of mine that kicked me so far on my back. This is before I walked down the road of reformed theology. It was at that moment when I was finally saying, “Okay, I have embraced everything John Piper has said and I'm still left flat here.” And I'm even beginning to wonder maybe it's my own salvation that's an issue.

Justin Perdue: Which is the question that you're really driven to answer.

Jimmy Buehler: Eventually the logical conclusion of this kind of approach to the Christian life does one of two things: one, it pushes a person to so much despair that, as Luther even describes in so much of his writing, they begin to see God as a beast rather than a loving Creator and sovereign God. And they begin to despise Him because something isn't working for them; they're not feeling the right things, they're not having the right amount of affections. And so you almost, dare I say, become a beast in this brutish state: you're angry, intolerable, and frustrated because you're not getting the goods promised from this approach to the Christian life.

So that's one. You become angry and perhaps even just despairing of an individual, or you’re in a depressive state. Two, the other thing that happens is you attain it. You have all of these emotional highs and you begin saying things like, “I find pleasure in God. And then often what so quickly accompanies that is you begin to look down on others who “don't operate on your level,” who don't feel the things that you feel or who don't have the experience that you experience. And so you begin to look down on people because you've attained “true Christianity,” you've attained next level varsity Christianity.

Justin Perdue: They're still drinking milk and you're eating meat, you know?

Jimmy Buehler: That's exactly right. Yeah. You’re eating T-bones while they're just drinking skim milk.

Justin Perdue: Not even full fat. You're exactly right, Jimmy.

The logical conclusion of this kind of thinking produces one of two things: pride and self-righteousness, which you alluded to, or despair and even resentment and bitterness toward God. I think you're exactly right.

I want to pick up something from the Piper clip, he says that if you strip the adjectives away from the nouns, he says that you're left with something that the Devil can do. And I take great exception to that. I think he is absolutely wrong because here's the thing, when we define saving faith in Jesus that results in salvation - we did it from the confessions just a moment ago - we're using words like trusting, hoping, resting, believing, and accepting. We're hoping in Christ, trusting in Christ, resting in Christ, and accepting the work of Christ and all those things. We're casting ourselves upon the mercy of God in Christ. The Devil does not do any of that. So give me a break. Because people will say, even the demons have good theology. They might know what's true of God in Jesus, but they have not for one second ever hoped in Jesus. They have not for one second ever trusted him. They have not for one second ever put their hope in him and cast their selves on the mercy of God in him. That kind of rhetoric is wrong and harmful. I just wanted to say that in this area, not over in the other, but I think that's just patently false.

Jon Moffitt: I think what's hard is that there are so many questions unanswered and the foundation becomes, becomes wavering a little bit…

Justin Perdue: It's not firm. How firm a foundation ye saints of the Lord? Not so much, right?

Jon Moffitt: It's very obvious that there is a transformation of life when someone goes from death to life. Now if you're a child, you will see it in areas of affection towards one another. It's not going to be transformation as far as you're just, “I used to steal my brother's cookies and now I don't.” No, you're still probably going to steal your brother's cookies. That's called being a sinner. But I would say that I don't disagree when someone says, “But Jon, you do believe there's transformation of life?” Yes. Absolutely.

And the evidence of that, Christ says specifically, “The world will know that I have come, that I am true based upon the affections that you have for one another.” Right? “The world will know that you're my disciples” is another way of saying that. I do believe that if one claims to be a believer, the evidence of that will be seen in the way that they live. But that is not the ground of their salvation. This is where we keep going on and on about faith versus faithfulness. It is true that there will be moments of faithfulness - it’s hard to be an elder in a church or a pastor in a church if you don't have a reputation of being faithful to your wife and faithful to your finances and faithful to control your anger - but when those things go away, and every single man on this microphone knows of a pastor or multiple pastors that have failed and miserably, we don't call into question their salvation because their salvation is not based upon how well they can perform until they die. Their salvation is always grounded in something that's outside of them, not barring a mistake. That would be a works-based salvation. Let's get the foundation clear and then we can build good works on there.

Someone who had commented on the Facebook page that this sounds like Baptist Federal Vision, which if you don't know what the Federal Vision movement is, we're not going to get into that in this podcast. Piper is being influenced by the final justification or basically, God's examining your life as the totality of your life to determine the legitimacy of your salvation. Mr. Piper, you have just left two things: you have left election and the perseverance of the saints because that's the responsibility of God.

Justin Perdue: John Piper would deny the covenant of works and covenant of grace. He would deny the covenantal framework of Scripture categorically. What we mean here is that when we see that Jesus has accomplished everything, where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded and has secured everything for the elect, Piper's not going to see it that same way.

Jimmy Buehler: I want to read something that Luther wrote. Luther said, “He who must enter the kingdom of Christ must pass beyond all feeling and be carried into a region where sensation is nothing. For we are not to judge by feeling. Therefore if conscience accuses you of sin, if it sets the wrath of God before your eyes, if it tears Christ, the Redeemer, from you, you must not assent but must judge against your conscience and feelings that God is not angry and that you are not damned. For Scripture says that the kingdom of Christ lies beyond the domain of feeling. Therefore we must judge against our feeling.”

Bookending what I began in the other session where we talked about Jeremiah 17:9, I want to use Jeremiah 17:9 properly that when conscience and when feelings condemn me, I want to realize that my feelings are fickle and they vacillate to the left and to the right. I want to base my hope on the objectivity that is found in Christ, not in the subjectivity that I find in myself.

Justin Perdue: Just a couple of thoughts for me. One - this is the members podcast so I'm happy to say this - when I saw this clip initially, I showed it to my wife, and she watched it. Her reaction to it immediately was, “Well, if what John Piper is saying is true then I don't think I've been saved a single day of my life.” My wife battles depression. Like in Spurgeon's era or eras gone by, she would definitely be a person that would have been described as battling melancholy. For her, her feelings have always been a battle. Sometimes it's a lack of feeling that's a battle. This observation was profound to me in listening to her talk for a few minutes about this clip. She said, "I've never really had a big problem doing the right stuff. My problem has always been feeling the way that I should feel."

That was just interesting to me because a lot of times in the church, when we talk about obedience and sanctification, we're talking about, “Well, what kind of works are you doing? Are you doing the right stuff?” And my wife's like, "That part is actually pretty easy for me - doing the right stuff. I can toe the line all day. But I have always been haunted by my lack of feeling toward God or my lack of feeling about Jesus, though I know I'm trusting in him." It was a very sweet conversation that we had. I think that it's something worth mentioning that I trust that's the experience of many people. If they're honest with themselves, they've never felt the way they should and it haunts them.

Jon Moffitt: The New Testament does tell us, “Consider how to build one another up into love and good works.” Can you disconnect that from emotions? I don't think so. The word stir is to prod. I would say to Piper's point, there are times that we walk away from bible studies and it's like, “Wow. That was fantastic. That was encouraging.” I walk away feeling good. I feel spiritual. It's funny to say but you actually feel like, ”Wow, if that's a taste of heaven, I cannot wait.” But then there are other moments where I'm angry and I'm mad and I'm upset and I'm hurting. And the question is: which one of those do I need to have more of? Does it need to be an increasing level? I know every single one of the men that I've talked to have had long periods of discouragement, long periods of anger. Long periods. If someone says, “How are you feeling about Christ right now?” And you answer, “I know the truth of Christ but my heart and mind just…” And it could because of defeat, of fatigue. It could be because of a long battle with depression. It could be for a number of reasons. And I would say if I sat down next to you and I was trying to get your emotions back up to where they need to be versus sitting down to you and saying, “Let me speak to you about the reality of Jesus Christ because that will sustain you until you die no matter how you feel” One's going to give you a sense of hope where your emotions may stay low. And the other one is probably, if I try and bring you to emotional high and it doesn't happen, just going to push you over the edge.

Justin Perdue: Another verse in the Old Testament that comes to mind here is Micah 6:8\. This verse is often abused. This is in the context where Micah is indicting the people of Israel for their sin. And then they respond to Micah and they say kind of sarcastically, "Well, what should we do? Should we come before the Lord and bow ourselves before Him? Should we come with burnt offerings?” And then they say, “With thousands of rams and ten thousands of rivers of oil, what should we do? Shall I get my own firstborn for my transgression? Maybe God will forgive me." Micah 6:8 he says, “He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?” The way that's often preached is this way: God is not interested in your ritualistic religion. God is after a religion of the heart. And so you need to examine your heart and determine if you are walking before him in an authentic, legitimate way like the prophet is describing. I would say that that kind of understanding of the passage like Micah 6 is a fundamental collapsing of categories between Law and gospel that we talk about all the time. That statement - do justice, love kindness, walk humbly before your God - is not the gospel that will damn you to hell because none of us ever do it.

Jimmy, you were talking about Jeremiah 17:9 and when you said that, I just think about how many times Micah 6 has been abused that I've heard. We're told you need to get your heart right and then you will be right with God. That's your message of Law and damnation, not gospel peace and hope.

The last thing I'll say: you were both mentioning comfort and all those things and thinking about our feelings and them never being enough. Think about all of us on our deathbeds one day, should the Lord tarry and we're dying physically in this world. And somebody was around us trying to comfort us at the end of our lives. They were to say, "Think about all the good things you did. Think about how you loved others. Think about how you loved God.” My thought at that moment is going to be, "Oh my gosh, I could have loved so much more. I could've sacrificed so much more. I could've loved God so much more intensely. I should have been more grateful and more humble." Like there is no comfort if we're being pointed to ourselves in any measure. But to say that Christ will do, that's all the comfort that we need. That's where we need to be pointed. That's where I pray people around my deathbed are pointing me. "Justin, Jesus is your righteousness and he's done it for you. Look to him."

Jon Moffitt: This is why Paul says in Romans 8, “What can separate you from the love of God?” Nothing.

It's been a great discussion guys. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.

For those of you who are supporting us monthly, and I just want to say we are probably at the time this comes out towards the very end of us trying to raise that $25,000\. Please know that Jimmy, Justin and I - we really pray that if this is the Lord's will, that Theocast would continue to grow because we do know more people want to truly trust in Christ; they just don't know how to do it yet and they know that the current evangelical way isn't helping. If you can consider truly praying for us and supporting us, you can go to our website.

We'll see you guys next week.

[**Read Regular Episode Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/more-than-a-feeling-transcript/)  
**[Members Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/more-than-a-feeling-members/)**

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### More Than a Feeling? (Transcript)

*Published: March 11, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/more-than-a-feeling-transcript*
*Tags: Assurance, Feelings, John Piper, Pietism, salvation, T4G*

[**Listen to Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/more-than-a-feeling/)

Jon Moffitt: Today on Theocast we are going to be tackling emotions, affections, and feelings as they relate to your assurance in Jesus Christ. A very prominent evangelical recently said to define saving faith apart from feelings is futile. It's a pretty strong statement, and we're going to try and do our best to look at Scripture, history, and the confessions to answer the question: do we find assurance based upon our feelings or is our security in Christ more than a feeling? We hope you enjoy.

Welcome to Theocast - encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ; conversations about the Christian life from a reformed perspective. Today, our hosts are Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church and Jimmy Buehler is with us today, believe it or not, pastor of Christ Community Church in Willmar, Minnesota. I am Jon Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

Justin Perdue: Today we're going to talk about feelings and faith. What prompted us to have this conversation is a video that was put up on social media in the last few weeks by Together for the Gospel. It's a clip of John Piper from 2018's conference. It's about a two-minute clip from the message that he gave in that conference two years ago. He is making the argument that it is futile to try to define saving faith apart from feelings. On Twitter in particular, because that's the platform where I think the three of us are probably most active, many people in the reformed world and the confessional world grabbed hold of that clip and we're assessing it and talking about whether it was helpful or not.

The three of us started texting each other pretty much immediately. My wife and I had conversations in my own home and conversations even in my local church here in Asheville - and I trust at Grace Reformed and Christ Community you guys were doing the same thing. I'm not going to bury the lead here. We don't want to do that. We are concerned that the things that John Piper articulates in that particular video clip undermine rest in Christ. They undermine assurance and they put a burden on sinners that sinners frankly just cannot bear. That's the conversation we want to have today. It’s not just about that video - we want to have a much bigger conversation than that one video clip - but we want to talk today about feelings and faith and how it is that we're saved ultimately. Even how we would go about defining faith in Christ that produces and gives rest.

Jon Moffitt: When we decided to have this conversation, the one thought that came to my mind was John Piper is very clear on how someone is saved. He fits into the evangelical, historical, and I would even say the Calvinistic faith as it relates to someone going from death to life. He holds to the utter depravity of the human heart. He holds to the absolute sovereignty of God, election, and predestination. He holds to limited atonement. He understands that it's specifically paid for that person's soul and their sins; imputation.

What is hard is that he gets some of the core foundation issues. Where Theocast has found our home and where we feel most helpful to the conversations that are happening in the broader evangelical world, that is pulling the clutter off of the gospel that causes weight and confusion. I would say John Piper is not preaching a gospel here that is heretical. Much of what he says in that sermon is correct. But just because someone may say 75% of something that is correct and the 25% that they add at the end is so confusing, so deflecting, and so different than where the foundation is that the foundation then crumbles under the very weight that you have put on top of it. I would say this whole idea of John Piper - he is assuming on the front end a proper evangelical reformed doctrine of salvation.

Justin Perdue; Or at least of justification.

Jon Moffitt: Yes. And then there's the radicalness of _sola fide_. He's almost trying to explain it away. I give him credit for the brilliant man that he is; the smart, compassionate, generous man that he is. But I think there is a side of him that is trying to explain away the radicalness of _sola fide_. I would start there.

Jimmy Buehler: It's important to remember in this conversation too, for those that are listening here, is that we're not trying to tear down a brother and his ministry and the way that he has served over the course of a few decades. That is not at all what we're trying to say. We also want to keep in mind context. This is really difficult. I'm always a little fearful - and I don't know if you guys feel this way. I'm always a little fearful if an outsider listens to something that I say in a sermon. If you're an outsider, you don't attend our church, you don't know the context of the things that are happening in the body, the things that I'm aware of as a pastor that I need to tailor my sermon towards.

There's a little bit still in this evangelical world. Something we'd like to say is that evangelicalism is a pietistic movement. It's the water we swim in, and it is the air we breathe. It is just everywhere. What I mean by that is in a pietistic world, the focus so often becomes the interior of the Christian - what is happening in your feelings and your “affections.” That was a buzzword for many, many years. There's this heightened sense of trying to weed out those who are perhaps faking it or perhaps are “among us but are not of us” kind of thing. It's this overly acute desire to have a "pure church," which I think all of us want. However, often what happens there is the wheat and the tares parable - or the wheat and the weeds, if you will – where we see that there are weeds among the wheat. What we want to do as an overzealous farmhand is, we just want to start cutting it down. And what does Jesus say in that parable? "Don't do that. You're going to cut down the wheat as well as the weeds."

My fear and my concern is in a short clip like that, not only was it ripped out of context but also it was tweeted out in sort of this authoritative, "this is truth, you should listen to" sense. What happens, unfortunately, is people will listen to that. Where does it point them to ultimately? It's this navel-gazing interior focus that it's, “Me, me, me, me, me. What do I feel?” Don't hear us trying to vilify feelings at all, but it was such an authoritative, strong statement that saving faith without feelings, or a particular set of feelings, is futile.

Justin Perdue: I do feel what you were saying about the fact that this is a two-minute clip of a probably 50 to 60 minute message. The one thing that I would say about that, in trying to be reasonable here, is that the video clip was tweeted out for the entire world to see. It was promoted as like, "Hey, here's why you should come to this conference.” Like you even said, Jimmy, there's an authoritative tone and feel to the thing. We wouldn't be interacting with this at all, at least this particular video clip… this idea of faith and feelings we want to interact with, of course, but we wouldn't be talking about this particular video today were it not tweeted out for everybody to see. That's just one observation. When you make things public, and you're going to say things in such an authoritative fashion, then for others to come in and evaluate it biblically, and then even according to the rule of faith and the history of interpretation that's existed in the church for 2000 years is fair game. And that's what we're trying to do today.

I want to say a couple more things about pietism before moving this conversation forward. Pietism, in its beginnings, essentially was an obsession with feelings and affections. It was a hyper emphasis on feelings about Jesus, affections for Jesus, and those things being the emphasis and the center of attention in the Christian life.

As we've said so many times: where is the Christian pointed ultimately in this? The Christian is pointed inward to examine his or her heart, to examine his or her feelings and affections. Not that we should never examine ourselves and not that introspection is bad, but when that becomes the emphasis, it's very concerning.

I'm just immediately thinking about how my own feelings - and this is true for everybody - vacillate by the moment; they ebb and flow like crazy. This is why God's people, through history have always found great comfort in the fact that our assurance, confidence, and our security are found in God, not us. They are found in the sufficiency of Christ and not our sufficiency. They are found in the fact that though my emotions change all the time, Jehovah never does. The thing that's hard here is that it seems to be undermining the foundation of Christian confidence altogether.

Jon Moffitt: I put out a tweet last week or two weeks ago that said, "Every breath you take is riddled. It's filled with sin against your Father." It got a little bit of traction. Some people were struggling with that and were like, "How? Even when you're preaching?" And I was like, "Absolutely." "Even when you're praying?" Yes. It doesn't matter. And here's where we struggle. This is where - thank the Lord - Luther was able to bring some clarity about the differences between us as a saint filled by the Spirit, and the part of us that is still waiting for glorification. We don't live in glorified bodies. Because of your nature, you can't love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. You can't love your neighbor as yourself. You can't do that perfectly. Because within our nature, we still have selfishness, ambition, pride, arrogance, and laziness. So the question which has always been the one thing we've always kind of thrown back to some of the confusion, and I feel that Piper clutters this assurance area, is: how much emotions need to be tilted? Is it a 50-50? Is that a 60-40? At what point do you say, "Okay, I can have assurance because my emotions and affections meet this level." Where in Scripture will point me to that? Will create that watermark that I have to hit? I'm going to point you to some confessions, which is derivative of Scripture, but I'm going to have a hard time looking at Scripture, saying I can find the watermark of my emotions and my affections without finding assurance.

Jimmy Buehler: I remember when I was coming up in the Young, Restless, Reformed Movement, and one of the favorite verses to be thrown around was Jeremiah 17:9\. “The heart is deceitful above all things, and is desperately sick; who can understand it?” It was in the context that I was in that verse was being lobbed against a more, dare I say, charismatic feely-based sort of faith and trying to bring people back to rich doctrinal truths. And yet what was so ironic is that the Young, Restless, Reformed Movement, particularly that of which I was part of, we would quote this verse. We loved Jeremiah 17, and we loved Romans 9 as well, but particularly Jeremiah 17\. We loved to throw this in people's faces. And yet the way that we "discipled” people, the way that we ministered to people, we pointed them to the area that we told them to hate or to not trust.

Justin Perdue: To the area that you're telling them is desperately sick.

Jimmy Buehler: The area that we're telling you is sick in need of healing, in need of saving words. We're asking you to look there for some sort of comfort.

Let me share an analogy. Yesterday I spent a good chunk of the afternoon after work in urgent care with my son. He got a nice little stub toe; it turns out he kicked his nail in, and it was all sorts of gross and all kinds of nasty down there. It would be like me telling my son to look at his toe, which was all bruised and bloody, and say, "Hey buddy, see how healthy you are. Look at that toe. Isn't that just a wonderful sign of health?" And he would be like, "Dad, you're insane." He was limping so badly. And yet this is often what we do.

On the one hand, and we talk about this all the time, we will tell people how desperately sick they are and in need of a Savior. Then often, the medicine that we give them is to go within; go deep dive within your own soul and within your own heart and try to find some sort of comfort. The Enemy loves that. He's like, "Great, this is my territory. I'd love for you to come to my camp."

Justin Perdue: We've already alluded to the saint-sinner reality that has been articulated by many people throughout history. Martin Luther is perhaps most noted for it in the phrase from the Reformation _simul justus et peccator_ \- at the same time saint and sinner, at the same time justified and sinner. That has all kinds of ramifications and implications for this conversation because I think every redeemed person through history would acknowledge that. I am born again. I am a new creation in Christ. Yet, at the same time, I'm still battling the corruption that I inherited from Adam. Those things are true with me.

I'm thinking about Romans 7\. I'm thinking about Galatians 5:17\. In my inner man, I delight in the Law of God - there's a feeling word - I delight in and love God's truth; I want to do all these good things. I think every Christian ever would say, “I want to love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength. I want to love my neighbor as myself. I want to be filled with gratitude toward God, love toward God, affection toward God. I want to be humble before the Lord.” I mean, we could keep saying we want to feel all of these things toward God. The problem is we battle the flesh, and we battle our inherent corruption. To use the language of the apostle Paul, “We do not always do what we want to do.” We do not always feel what we want to feel. The flesh waging war against our spirit keeps us from doing what we want to do - this is what Galatians 5:17 says explicitly.

That reality is so critical for us to hold here. That intention with what we're talking about with respect to affections. If Piper, for example, were to say that a Christian wants to do this and that but yet often struggle to do so, to that, I say absolutely. I completely agree with him. The problem is we don't feel what we want to feel, and we don't feel what we should feel. So then the question is: where in the world is our hope and our confidence in our assurance? Because if you're pointing me to my feelings - the authenticity of them, the realness of them, the level of them - how much is enough? How could I ever know that I'm feeling a sufficient amount of these things? Our feelings will always change. It's going to be different tomorrow than it is today. I can't even explain that to you as to why that's the case - I wake up some days, and I'm thinking, “I am just not feeling it today like I even was yesterday.” And I think that's the normal experience for the believer.

Jon Moffitt: The apostle Paul writes to the Corinthian church, which, historically speaking, was very confused in their affections. They were running after the wrong gifts. They were running after the wrong sexual pleasures. They were running after money.

Justin Perdue: They had misunderstood Christian freedom. They're celebrating sin.

Jon Moffitt: Yet Paul does not write to them in such a way where he's trying to shake them in their assurance. He actually uses the gospel and says, “It's the gospel that I want to preach to you.” Then he uses the love of God for them as the way to correct the issue - God's consistent emotional affection toward them. We can get into the emotions of God at another time, but we'll say the affections of God towards you are constant and ever-flowing. According to John 17, it is the same affection that He has for the Son. He says that He loves us the way that He has loved the Son. It is there that we, as the believer, find the true sense of our foundation.

I'm going to read to you the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. It's at 18.4\. These confessions are important because if we were to take all of the reformed confessions, and when it comes to assurance and when it comes to a proper understanding of justification, we're going to agree here. At point 4 it says this, ". . .true believers may in various ways have the assurance of their salvation shaken or temporarily lost. This may happen because they neglect to preserve it or fall into some specific sin that wounds their conscience and grieves the Spirit." What they are making room for is the frailty of the believer. We are frail creatures. This is why we reference things like Galatians 6 because we, as believers, our affections, and our emotions can absolutely be captured by the temptations of sin and pulled away at a point to where faithful loving Christians have to come, rebuke us, and pull us out.

We could say that Mr. Piper is correct in that if the Spirit lives within you, you will have these newfound affections. But they aren't a constant flow that is ever unmovable. If he doesn't mean that, then, of course, Desiring God and some of his other books and his well-known sermons - he needs to create that _simul justus et peccator_ feeling in there. But that's not the feeling I'm getting from most of this material.

Justin Perdue: In the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, I'm reading portions of two or three different paragraphs from chapter 13 on sanctification and chapter 14 on saving faith as they articulate it. 13.2 talks about sanctification and points out the realities that we have been highlighting. "This sanctification extends throughout the whole person, though it is never completed in this life. Some corruption remains in every part. From this arises a continual and irreconcilable war, with the desires of the flesh against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh." They go on in paragraph 3 to say, "In this war, the remaining corruption may greatly prevail for a time." That's huge – that in the war of the flesh against the Spirit, the flesh may prevail for a time. Certainly, that would mean that our affections are not right. They go on, "Yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part overcomes. So the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. They pursue a heavenly life, in gospel obedience to all the commands that Christ as Head and King as given them in his Word." But that acknowledgment that the flesh may prevail for a season is critical. And then finally the definition of saving faith, chapter 14 paragraph 2 - this is a portion of it. These words are excellent. "But the principal acts of saving faith focus directly on Christ - accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace." There you have that directly on Jesus. The words used are accepting, receiving, and resting on him alone and for everything - justification, sanctification and glorification, eternal life - all by virtue of the covenant of grace, not works. It's very helpful that that's defining faith biblically as looking outside of yourself completely to Jesus alone for everything that you could ever need in order to be finally saved.

Jimmy Buehler: I remember severely battling through all of these things in college, being part of that specific context. I remember asking the people who were influential in my life - and this is nothing against them as they were very helpful for the season that I was in. I do think that they loved me, that they cared for me, that they wanted what was best for me. But I remember, reviewing these conversations years later where I would ask, “How can I know? How can I know that I am feeling the right things or that I'm saved?” And I typically would get a response in the form of a question: “Do you feel that you love God? Do you feel this? Do you feel that?” And then they say, "Well, we're just looking for a pattern. Is there a trajectory of onward and upward?” And my response to that was always, "How much trajectory am I am I supposed to have?" It wasn't until one of my friends sent the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith to me a few years back and I was like, "Where has this been all my life?" Shout out to our denominationally reformed brothers and sisters that hold the Three Forms of Unity.

But the Heidelberg Catechism question 60 is so weighty and good. It was something that I returned to time and time again where the question is this: “How are you righteous before God?” And the answer is, "Only by true faith in Jesus Christ; so that though my conscience accuse me, that I have grossly transgressed all the commandments of God, and kept none of them, and am still inclined to all evil; notwithstanding God, without any merit of mine, but only if mere grace, grants and imputes to me the perfect satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ; even so, as if I had never committed any sin; yes, as if I had fully accomplished all the obedience which Christ has accomplished for me; inasmuch as I embrace such benefit with a believing heart.” When I was asking these questions of how I can know and what if I don't feel these things, I wish somebody pointed me those truths; things that you can bank and rest on.

Jon Moffitt: I remember early on, one of my deacons was a new believer and he kept hearing me talk about the glory and wonder of Jesus Christ. We were in Ephesians at the time. One day, he finally got up enough courage and said, " Jon, I'm going to be real with you. When you say the word Jesus, it does nothing for me. I don't know who he is. I don't know anything about him. I believe I'm a Christian. I believe he died on the cross. I believe in God. But this whole thing about you talking about the sweetness, the joy, the kindness, all that - it does nothing for me." To which I could then say, "Maybe you're not a Christian." Because he was trying to have these affections for Jesus. What I began to help him do is understand that through time and through exposure of the gospel, he’s going to have a knowledge base of trust, which then, in the midst of pain and suffering, he will understand what it means to rest in this absolute foundational rock solid love of Christ for him.

I'm reading the tweet again, and it says, “. . . define saving faith apart from feelings.” Are there people in history who have these emotional experiences where they go from living a horrible life, or even struggling with massive doubt, to this overwhelming assurance that these feelings and affections come flowing out of them? Yes. But I will tell you this: every day doesn't feel like that to me. It did, two weeks ago. Justin, remember when we did the podcast a couple of weeks ago and we were talking about how you read Jeremiah? There was like this emotional high I had but I don't live there. It's a matter of fact. Most of the time I don't live there. Most of the time I've struggled to find my hope in Christ because my emotions are elsewhere.

Justin Perdue: The good news is the fact that we are saved by Jesus, not our feelings about him. I think we can all agree that that's good news and that reality is resolved. The reality is that there are seasons, there are moments, there are days, hours, and seasons of our lives where we do kind of have those waves of joy just washing over our hearts and souls, where we're joyful, we're satisfied, we're thrilled, we're moved. And those moments are fantastic. I know that we all wish we had more of them. But then for every one of those moments we probably have several where those waves are just not washing over our soul the tide has gone out. I don't know where my feelings for the Lord are today. I can't find them. In those moments, often I'm prompted to pray and ask the Lord to work and move in my heart.

I want to be fair to John Piper - he did write a book called _When I Don't Desire God_. But he had to write that book because of the things he had written and said in so many other situations. He paints a picture of the only way that that you're legitimate is if you treasure Jesus above all things; to that, I would humbly say: if you're saying you want to treasure Christ above all things, then okay, but if you're saying that the only way you're a legitimate Christian is if you treasure Jesus above all things, I guess I'm going to hell, and everybody else that I know is going to hell, too. He has put himself in a position where he has to clarify what he means. He writes that he doesn't desire God with all his heart all the time, and so he’s not saying what it seems like he’s saying; John Piper does not mean that you always feel perfect about God. But what we're asking and pressing for is clarity and precision of language so that he doesn’t confuse people.

Jon Moffitt: We're going to get comments on YouTube and on Facebook; people are going to come to his defense and say we're not listening to what he's saying. All I can say is that Theocast is not the only one making this observation. This has been a criticism of Jonathan Edwards. This has been a criticism of John Piper for many, many years. I will tell you this right now, to this day, I credit John Piper for this amazing joy I have in the sovereignty of God. The way he described it when I was coming out of the Arminian pit - he just created so much affection and desire. I loved his passion and his patience and his kindness. Please don't think that this is a Piper bashing moment.

But, I will say, go back to Scripture. On a broad level, the imprecatory songs that are in there, even the songs of struggle. Go read Psalm 5, or even David when he writes Psalm 51 where he went for a very long period of time - it wasn't a 24-hour period from the narrative that David went from the desire to kill the husband. Even to the point where the prophet Nathan finally had to come up and say, “Apparently you aren't seeing what you're doing. So I'm going to have to tell you.” And what does God say after that? What does God say about David? He's still a man after his own heart. Meaning that David didn't somehow prove himself to be an unbeliever.

What ends up happening is we have people look at the failures of their life, instead of looking to something outside of themselves and repenting to it. I believe a lot of people hear this kind of message from Piper - I know this for a fact because we get emails, phone calls, and Facebook messages about this. It causes people to stay longer in sin, longer in not pursuing a restoration, and longer in doubt because they don't feel like it's achievable. It's an unachievable goal.

Jimmy Buehler: It's unattainable. I would add that there is no better way to avoid loving your neighbor than spending all of your time in your prayer closet trying to sort out your own emotions. That is one of my big assessments of that whole feeling- based movement if you will. The hedonistic movement has over grossly become an individualization and privatization of the Christian life where it is an intense focus on the individual and his or her feelings rather than rejoicing and resting in the objective truths. I think something we can perhaps talk about in the members podcast is the fact that I know people who are just not emotional. They are non-emotive people, or they have some sort of condition - hormonally, physically, mentally - that just does not allow them to feel things that, dare I say, average normal people feel. And so what are we supposed to do with that?

Jon Moffitt: A good example to that is one of the former hosts, Ryan Haskins. I've known him for eight-plus years now and I don't know if I've ever seen him cry or show any other emotion. And so, following that thought, I would be like, “Maybe Ryan's not saved.”

Justin Perdue: I'm probably going to have to quote my boy Horatius Bonar before we go over to the members podcast. I'll do that in a minute.

Two thoughts here from me; they're not exactly related but they were prompted by things that you guys were saying. Jimmy, you were talking about how Christian hedonism and being in your prayer closet, obsessing over your feelings, really hinders love of neighbor. I'm going to make a more broad statement about pietism. I think pietism - this hyper-focus on our affections or our obedience, our performance, and the, the unachievable standard that it sets for the Christian - kills honesty in the church and in relationships like we're told to confess sin to one another.

James 5:16 is going to be destroyed by pietism because nobody's going, to tell the truth about themselves. If I did, what would people think? Pietism kills honesty in the church. It's interesting that pietistic contexts are obsessed with sanctification yet hinders sanctification because it is all about me. I'm less likely to confess to my brothers and sisters. I'm less likely to lean into the church and the fellowship of the saints the way God designed it. I'm not calling it like it is. I'm painting a false picture of my own reality. Our true sanctification is hindered by that nonsense.

The other thought that I wanted to say is that Piper's famous tagline is “God is most glorified in us when we're most satisfied in Him.” I want to rephrase that and say that… I'm not going to say “most glorified” because I'm not going to presume on that piece. I will say this: “God is tremendously glorified when we are most mindful of our need of Him.” In particular when we are most mindful and aware of our need of Jesus. So if we want to glorify God, one of the ways that we can do that in our daily lives, and certainly when we gather as churches, is to confess together the fact that we are sin-sick wretches who are absolutely desperate for Christ and his work in our place. I am confident, based on Scripture, that God is very glorified in that confession. I would wager to say that He is more glorified in that than He is in us being satisfied in our relationship with Him.

Jon Moffitt: The confession of sin and even corporate confession of sin - which Paul says confess your sins to one another and I grew up in a church context where that only happens when you're in intense counseling moments and you're confessing it to the pastor to get help - we do this as a congregation. I know you guys do that. We corporately confess before our neighbors and to each other the absolute need of forgiveness. Prayer is also a moment of dependence because you're opening your heart and your mind and your soul to request something.

But I will say for those of you who are new to Theocast: if you haven't downloaded _Faith Versus Faithfulness: A Primer on Rest_, this is what we're trying to get at. This is why it was written; Jimmy did an excellent job. In the middle section, Justin does a great job of explaining the difference between a pietistic context or church and a reformed or, we would say, a restful confessional perspective. At the end, Jimmy does a really good job of pulling the clutter off of the gospel by saying, "If you want to know what brings you rest, this is it." Go read that last section. I encourage you to do that.

Justin, you were answering a question. I think we should jump into the members podcast and do that. We actually have a Facebook group that's growing - just go over to Facebook, type in Theocast, and you'll see the Facebook group. Once in a while we'll jump in there and let you know what we're recording. We did that today and we received like five or six questions; one of those was, “In light of this tweet by Piper, what's your overall thoughts on the whole premise of Piper's ministry?” We'll talk a little bit about that and some of the other questions that we received. So if you want to join us over there, you can.

Justin Perdue: Can I throw a bone or quote out there from one of the hymns really quick?

Jon Moffitt: Yeah, absolutely.

Justin Perdue: This is something I probably cite about one out of every 10 episodes, but I want to cite it for the people that are new.

Horatius Bonar, Scottish minister in the 1800s, is more famous for his hymns than his sermons. The guy is absolutely spot-on about the reality of the sufficiency of Jesus and the safety that we have in him. He wrote a book called _God's Way of Peace_: _A Book For the Anxious_ that I would recommend to everybody. But in his hymn called _I Hear the Words of Love_, the last two verses go this way (and they're very short): “My love is ofttimes low, my joy still ebbs and flows, but peace with Him remains the same, no change my Savior knows. I change, He changes not; the Christ can never die; his love, not mine, the resting-place, his truth, not mine, the tie.” And that's an old hymn. It's a reasonably sweet tune, but it is not like some contemporary jam session hymn. That song is one of the most beloved songs at Covenant Baptist Church because it's so good pointing the saints outside of themselves to God in Christ and knowing that we're safe. And it acknowledges that our feelings will alter, but that God has us. It's just very sweet.

Jon Moffitt: That’s a great way to end it. For those of you that are new, you can go to Theocast.org and at the top, it will say “free book”. You can grab that. Also, if you want a 14-day trial and listen to our next conversation - which we are going to continue - you can do that by joining our membership.

For those of you that have been supporting us, thank you so much. We're excited about the future. Stay tuned. We've got a lot of big announcements coming your way. We'll see you next week.

[**Members Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/more-than-a-feel%E2%80%A6mbers-transcript/)  
**[Members Podcast](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/more-than-a-feeling-members/)**

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### Comforts from the Cross (Transcript)

*Published: March 4, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/comforts-from-the-cross-transcript*
*Tags: Assurance, Cross, Gospel, Theology of the Cross*

### [**Listen to Episode.**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/comforts-from-thecross/)

Justin Perdue: Today on Theocast, Jon and I talk about the fact that sometimes as Christians we think that we have understood the gospel, foolishly thinking we have reached the bottom and that there's not a lot left for us to understand. Then God comes in, graciously and lovingly, and explodes our hearts and minds with the wonder, truth, mercy, and grace of the gospel.

We talk today about comforts from the Cross; the fact that when Jesus died and said that it is finished, that he had accomplished redemption and that his glory, righteousness, merits, and life were counted to wretched sinners like us. We talk about that and its implications in the church.

In the members podcast, we consider self-righteousness and how bad it is in the church, and how if we understand the gospel rightly then it should promote love and unity because we understand that we all have the same righteousness - namely the righteousness of Christ. We hope that this conversation is encouraging to you.

Jon Moffitt: This morning before recording, I shared with Justin something that I had recently learned and he then did the same thing. We went on and on until we realized we were running out of time so we just decided to push record. What ended up happening is both of us started to share what we would say are comforts from the cross.

Both of us were experiencing realities of the gospel, things we had never seen or thought of in a fresh and new way. I know every guy around the microphone has experienced this: we’ve all had moments when we think the gospel is so great, we've learned so much, and we would never admit that we hit the capacity of it. Then the Holy Spirit comes and opens your mind to a new window into heaven that just explodes your heart into a thousand pieces. You hit new levels of excitement and joy. Sometimes it happens at a really important moment. For me, these last few weeks have been a little hard as I've been dredging through all kinds of things in life.

Justine Perdue: Just to talk a little bit more about our pre-conversation, you began to tell me about the sermon you preached on Sunday. I was telling you about something that I read this week. Then I was talking about recently finishing a sermon series in Mark and talking about the Cross and different things that we saw. You and I were just going back and forth about the wondrous truth of the fact that the glories, merits, and the righteousness of Christ are counted to us as sinners. It was clear we had both had our minds blown in the last week (or two or three). As we were thinking about these realities and we're looking at each other wondering what we're going to record today, we realized we should record this. We should just talk about the righteousness of Christ, counted to sinners in the glory of Christ, counted to sinners in what he secured for us on the Cross.

What draws people to Theocast anyway is this message of the sufficiency of Jesus. It's why we do what we do not just here at Theocast but even just in terms of pastoral ministry. What is building the cultures of our respective churches is this sufficiency of Christ in his work. There is nothing that we would rather talk about, and we trust the same for our listeners that there is nothing that you would rather listen to than this - to talk about Christ and what he's done for us who are completely undeserving.

Sometimes we are stupid enough to think that we've plumbed the depths of it. Then God just comes in and blows us up anew - and not in a bad way, not like He's scolding us - it's loving and it's so kind and it's so full of joy and peace that your mind and heart explode. You're thinking it's better than you even realize and there's more to it than you thought. And we continually have those experiences as we wrestle with what God's revealed in His word.

So, Jon, why don't you kick us off with a little bit of John 17 that you were thinking about this past Sunday.

Jon Moffitt: We're going to spend some time in John 17\. We're going to spend some time with Jeremiah and Mark. The design of all of these is so that you find comfort from the Cross, that you walk away from today realizing and hopefully beginning to believe in how much Christ has done for you, how much God loves you, and how much rest you really, truly can have.

In John 17, Jesus is speaking to his disciples. This is this conversation he's about to have with them right before he dies. This is the last public conversation of instructions and it's very intimate. It's almost like if I knew I was about to leave my children, this was the last conversation I was going to have with them. This would be a very important conversation for me to have.

I actually had one of these conversations with my dad; I was about to go away to work for the summer. We both knew things weren't going well physically for him. He called me in his room the day before I left, and I can remember as if it was yesterday. He pulled me down close and he said, “Son, if you remember anything that I've told you, remember, be teachable.” And that was the last thing he told me. It had such a massive impact on me cause he could've said anything to me in those last moments. When Jesus was in his last moments with his disciples – of course, he's not dying forever but he is going to be leaving this world - he's speaking these comforts to them. He is saying some of the most comforting, shepherding, and loving things to his disciples. John 17:22 threw me for a loop because I really wanted to understand not just what Jesus was saying, but also why he was saying it.

In John 17:22 he says, "The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one.” Jesus is speaking proleptically; he is talking of the future as if it is reality. He hasn't actually received this glory yet because he hasn't finished his work on the Cross but Jesus uses this language quite often in his prayers or even in his conversations. The question then becomes, “What does he mean by glory?“ He can't mean the glory as it relates to his holiness innately because that's part of the Trinitarian holiness. And God says flat out, "I will not give that to another." It can't even be the holiness or glory that's related to his nature because he can't necessarily give that away. God didn't give him the glory from His nature because Jesus was never created. What he means here, and if you look back in John 7, is Jesus is referring to the glorification that he gets from the Cross.

Justin Perdue: From his work of redemption.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. So Colossians 2 speaks of this. Hebrews 2 speaks of this. Acts 4 speaks of this glory was given. Jesus was crowned with glory and was highly exalted by the Father. Here's where all the Legos fell in place. When I got done putting it all together - and I'm just going to be open with the listeners - I started crying in my study. I couldn't believe the reality of this truth.

Just to help explain what glory means here: glory means to provide accolade or to provide praise that is related to something that is far above something else. Like you don't give glory to the average. Normally we give glory to that at which is supreme or best. We do this in our culture all the time - the best athletes, the best business people - we give them the rightful place of glory, but not necessarily on a holy stance. Jesus is saying that the glory that he received from his Father for his actions in that life and on the cross, he’s going to take those praiseworthy accolades and give them to us as if they're our accolades and they belong to us.

Stop and think about that for just a moment. You and I never did one single momentary action that would ever be compared to what Christ has done. He says very clearly that this isn't just for you. In verse 19 he says it is for every disciple that comes after. “I'm giving you my glory so that when the Father looks at you, He sees what I did, not what you've done. He sees what I did.” Here's the application and why. This is the end of the verse. He says, “I give it to them that they may be one even as we are one.” If everybody has the same accolade, if everyone has the same amount of glory, which is Christ's glory from the cross, there is never a moment to compare because if you're in Christ, you have his glory.

We're excited to talk about how crazy it is that we start measuring our own righteousness against one another. It's like we've lost our minds and we've lost sight of the reality that we all have been credited with the greatest righteousness, merit, and glory that there is, namely, that we've been given the works of Christ. Then we want to go around and parade our own righteousness in front of everybody.

One of the biggest mind-blowing realities that I have to remind myself of all the time is that Jesus, in his perfect obedience, his perfect fulfilling of the Law, and even his sacrificial death (like the greatest gesture of love and sacrifice in the history of the world, all of his work of redemption, etc.) God looks at me because of the good news of the imputation of Christ's righteousness to me by faith. God looks at me as though I have done all of those things that Jesus did.

It's not even like my account reads like his account; it means that it's as though I have done it myself when I have never done any of it. It's remarkable. So when God talks about all of the righteous requirements that he has for us in his Law, we really can stand in Jesus and say it is as though we have done those things. That is the greatest news in the world.

Like Luther, we'll talk about the two kinds of righteousness: there's the passive righteousness that we have that we receive from God in Christ by faith – which is what we're talking about today - and our own active righteousness. That active righteousness, as you were already alluding to, is not as though God the Father would ever look at our active righteousness and say it has some kind of greater value than that righteousness of Jesus that has been counted to us. No, God, the Father would never say that.

I'll go ahead and transition this briefly to Jeremiah and then we'll move on to Mark's gospel and we'll see where we go from here. I'm excited about where this conversation may lead. In chapter 23, the prophet begins to talk about the righteous branch who is going to come; the righteous branch from David. Jeremiah 23: 5-6 says, “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’”

I read that this morning and t was one of those moments like you were describing, where your head, mind, and heart practically explode. I've read this before, but I have never seen it that way where he's talking about the righteous branch who will come from David, who is Jesus. He's talking about the certainty that Judah will be saved. Israel will dwell securely. And the name by which that righteous branch Jesus will be called is “The Lord is our righteousness”.

It's so wonderful when you have these moments when you see not just from the New Testament, not just from Paul, but you see it throughout the entirety of Scripture. We see it in the Old Testament from a prophet who's living hundreds of years before Christ would ever come. He is stating that one of the names the Messiah will go by is ”The Lord is our righteousness”. It's like it's always been God's plan. The very righteousness of God would be counted to his people through the work of the Messiah. It sounds just like Paul in Romans. You get it directly from the mouth of Jeremiah.

Jon Moffitt: What's interesting is that you, you hear God accepts you based upon your forgiveness and righteousness, but it's not righteousness that you perform – and this is where the confusion comes in – it is righteousness that is given to you. For instance, sometimes it's helpful to understand where praise comes from. In other words, if I give someone a compliment and if they don't know who I am or if they don't respect where the compliment is coming from, they go, “Thanks, I appreciate that.” But when a compliment comes from someone they know and respect, and they understand what it is that you have accomplished, there's a side of you that goes, ”That compliment means more to me than anything else in the universe.” When you think about righteousness and where it really matters, where the compliment comes from, there's only one Being in the universe that really matters when it comes to their perspective of you and your standing - and that's God.

God's perspective is the only one that matters. It does not matter if you go, ”Well, Jon, you're a really godly man.” Thanks. I appreciate that. But if you and I stand before the mirror, spiritually naked and ashamed because we have nothing to offer, and yet the Father says, “OH, but dear son, you're righteous.” How could He say that? Why would He ever give me that compliment? And it's not a compliment to you; it's a compliment to the Son because it's His righteousness that He's complimenting. It just so happened to be given to you.

Justin Perdue: It's his own righteousness that He's complimenting because He has clothed you in that. “Bring robes and put them on him. Put rings on his hands, and shoes on his feet.” God has clothed us in his own righteousness. It's scandalous in its mercy.

I've recently finished preaching through Mark's gospel at CBC. Near the end of Mark's account is the crucifixion. I was struck as I was preparing for and delivering that sermon with several things that I want to layout for us right now in it. It's relevant to our conversation. The darkness is described in Mark 15:33 as coming over the whole land when Jesus was on the Cross for three hours. I had read that before and thought it was certainly significant. But then I connected that to Exodus. As I was studying, I thought about the fact that the ninth plague in Egypt was darkness and there was darkness over the land of Egypt for three days. When Jesus is put on the Cross, there's darkness over the land for three hours. That's not insignificant. And then, what's the 10th plague in Israel? It's the killing of the firstborn when the Passover comes. Jesus is on the cross at Passover as God's firstborn, begotten Son being slain for the sins of the world and to save God's people.

And so you see this repeat of the Passover in the Exodus and we realize, just as Luke says in the transfiguration, that Jesus, Elijah, and Moses were talking about the Exodus that he would accomplish at Jerusalem. The Exodus happened and the Passover happened because Jesus was coming to fulfill the Passover and he was going to accomplish a greater Exodus. God's people in Egypt were liberated from slavery. At Calvary, Jesus liberated God's people from bondage to sin and death and hell. And that's remarkable in and of itself. But then we continue on in Mark's account and Jesus quotes Psalm 22:1 when he says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" And people misunderstand. They think he's talking to Elijah and all this stuff. But then Jesus utters a loud cry and gives up his life.

We know from John's gospel that at the very end of Jesus’ life, he cries out, “It is finished.” Mark tells us that the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom at that very moment. Jesus says it's finished and the curtain that separated the Holy of Holies – which is what separated people from God so that they wouldn't die in the presence of His holiness - is torn from heaven downward. God tore that curtain through what Jesus has accomplished. Reconciliation has happened. We now have access to Him. And when Jesus says it's finished, what did he mean? He means that redemption is over, atonement is accomplished, righteousness has been fulfilled, and there is nothing left to be done other than to trust his work for us. And it's just wonderful when you think more deeply about the work of Christ in the place of the sinner. The gospel really is unfathomable in its depth. We could look at it, contemplate it, talk about it for the rest of our lives and never hit the bottom.

Jon Moffitt: What's hard is that we hear it as finished, but practically what we apply is Jesus’ part is finished and now it's our part. We think of the Old Testament stories and we often lose sight that they are not these grandiose stories of morality, that they are connected in history and there are these intricate lacings of the gospel. When you put the Old Testament together with the New, you have this glorious chandelier that just explodes with gospel truths with all these twines.

Justin Perdue: Not only are they not morality tales, but they're also not even epic stories that just stand on their own. Those stories exist. Those things happened in history because Jesus was coming. Sometimes we make the mistake of thinking that the Passover, the Exodus, and all this stuff happened the day of the atonement and then Jesus came and fulfilled that _post facto_. No, it’s the opposite. All of those things happened in history because Jesus was coming and that was always the plan.

Jon Moffitt: Genesis 3:15 set the scene where God makes a promise to Adam and Eve that the seed will come and then we just follow this thread all the way. Part of this thread is the seed is promised and then affirmed through Abraham - and then you have the Abrahamic covenant. From that, we know that there is One who is coming. Then it goes through the line of Judah and we know that from there, as you just read in Jeremiah, there's going to be the shoot of “The Lord of righteousness”. There is another covenant that is one of my favorites because it impacted me in becoming covenantal: the Davidic covenant. If you want to talk about an absolute illustration of how Jesus earns by his works our right in the kingdom, it is 2 Chronicles 6:16 where we have been given the explanation and clarification of the Davidic covenant. It says, "Now therefore, O Lord, God of Israel, keep for your servant David my father what you have promised him, saying, ‘You shall not lack a man to sit before me on the throne of Israel, if only your sons pay close attention to their way, to walk in my law as you have walked before me.’” David's heirs were horrible. They could not fulfill this. And every year there was this waiting by Israel. Is this going to be the King? Is this going to be the King of David? It was a constant failure. And the promise is this: the one who comes and fulfills God’s laws will earn the right for those people to be in the kingdom forever. So the one action by the King earns the right for the rest of the people. He does not say if people live right. He says this if the King lives right.

What is Jesus described as? The King in the line of who? David. He is the son of David. And when Jesus lives the perfect righteous life, it's not talking about the lineage of the people as far as it relates to just those by birthplace. He's talking about the people of God. We have here this long story of kings and wars and the whole point of it was there is not a man who can earn the right for salvation; there is not a man at all except for the One who came, perfectly obeyed and died on the Cross.

We are told from the Old Testament that when the Father looks at us He says, “You have right of passage because your King, your representative, perfectly obeyed everything that was required of you in your place. Now you have the right to rest in the kingdom.

Justin Perdue: The Davidic covenant laid out in 2 Samuel 7 and then you just gave it to us from Chronicles. It's very clear that the Davidic covenant is conditional. God is saying that this is going to be the condition: if your son obeys My law and thus righteousness. We rejoice in the fact that Jesus has met the conditions of that covenant. It's beautiful. We know that we do have a King who reigns over us in righteousness and peace and in Him we will dwell securely because Jesus has done everything that's required.

Why don't we shift and talk about some of the implications of all this wonderful gospel truth we've been unpacking? We could talk about self-righteousness and how we like to compare ourselves to one another.

Before we get there, talking about the comfort that it is to know that God looks upon us and really does see the glory, merit, and the righteousness of Christ - that he no longer looks at us and sees the sin and the ugliness and the kind of marred image of himself in us - it is balm for souls and comfort for those who are weary and struggling. It is comfort for people who are highly in touch with the depth of their own corruption because the gospel is not but so comforting to people. If anything, it is offensive to people who think that they've got something to bring to the table. But for people who understand that they are wretched and have never done anything untainted by sin, this is the greatest news in the world. The perfect holiness, righteousness, obedience, and satisfaction of Jesus have been counted to us. That's just to use the language of the Heidelberg Catechism question 60\. That's how they frame it. I've never kept any of God's commands. I've broken all of them and I still sin. How in the world could a person like me have any hope before the Lord? Well, it's because of Christ.

Jon Moffitt: The thing is that we are told in Scripture very clearly that God does not rate us on percentages. It's not that you're good if you're in the 75 rate, you're bad if you're in the 45 rate. That is collapsing the Law and the gospel together where we're saying, “Okay, if I do my best, the gospel comes and makes up the rest.” No, that's moralism and legalism. It's either perfect or wretch. And this is where people put this out on social media. There were a couple of interactions that I saw recently. The week has gone by and we say we had a bad week. No, you didn't have a bad week - it's worse than you thought. If I showed you what your week really looked like, you wouldn't come out of your room out of embarrassment. The amount of sin that resides in our heart - just go read Romans 7 and listen to Paul talk about himself as a believer, and the struggle that he has and how he must rely on the grace of God.

Part of understanding the righteousness of Christ is to keep Christians from going insane from keeping them. There is nothing that drives me more to despair than when I have to look at my own goodness because there's not much there if any at all. And yet it's easy to compare. This is where we would say the reason we love and can see this so clearly is that we have learned to separate the Law, which is "do this and live", from the gospel, which is "He did this now live." The moment you collapse those two, you're always going to struggle with assurance because if at any moment you think you must do this something to live, that is Law.

Justin Perdue: I just started preaching through Proverbs this past Sunday. Proverbs 1:7 is a famous verse: “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.” What does that mean? What does that all entail? Right? To fear the Lord and have reverence for Him means what? First of all, you know who He is. True. But then immediately after that, and inextricably linked to that, is to understand what He requires. What does God require? Well, He's given it to us as Law, and he has told us, “Here's everything I require and you must do it perfectly.” Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount - the greatest sermon on the Law ever given in the history of the world - is found in Matthew 5-7\. Christ unpacks the Law for us and nails every one of us. In Matthew 5:48 he says you must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. He said a lot of other things in that sermon about applying the Law of God to the hearts of men in such a way where it destroys every one of us. If we're going to talk in terms of the fear of the Lord being the beginning of knowledge, well, it begins with knowing who God is and knowing what God requires. And in understanding those two things, there is nothing for us to do but to run to Christ. Absolutely nothing.

So, with this distinction between Law and gospel in redemptive history and how that framework is so vital for understanding of scripture, if you don't have those things in view and you go to Proverbs, you'll do all kinds of crazy stuff with it and you'll turn it into just a bunch of practical tips for living. You'll turn it into a Christian version of Aesop's fables. You’ll turn it into ways that your life can go better. That's not what Proverbs is about. When we collapsed these categories, we damage people. We cause people to despair in the things that they can't do and we cause them to take pride in the things that they think they can do. Neither one of those is good in the church.

Jon Moffitt: What people struggle with is this: “Jon, you guys are sounding like you're antinomian.” If we have the imputed righteousness - meaning to receive on the credit of someone else - and believe that we have Jesus' righteous credit to us, that means there's nothing else we need to do. There's nothing else for you to do as it relates to your standing and acceptance before God. It's either a gift or it's not. Either we're saved as a gift from the Father or we were given the opportunity to save ourselves. And I'm telling you that Ephesians 2: 8-9 tells you the exact opposite.

If you go back and listen to some of our podcasts where we're talking about how good works is not a dirty word, what we're saying is God does not need your good works in order for you to confirm your righteous standing before Him. He already says you're not righteous. "Well, Jon, when He says, ‘be Holy as I am Holy’, what does he mean by that?" There is no way He means you need to be holy in order to obtain your status. It's called being what you are in light of. In other words, if you have been declared righteous and your position with God has been made, you are now free to live and roam and be wild. Go be natural in this new state that you're in.

The people who need your good works are your neighbors because they are the ones who will be affected by you sinning against them; they will also be affected by you not administering the gospel to them. This is why I want to go back to John 17\. Can you think of a greater way to create unity and harmony than if everybody says we're all equal and there is no pecking order? “Well, they've done all of this for God so they must be more spiritual and more respected.” Absolutely not. It's the exact opposite. Jesus is saying you are all equally received. This is like the parable of Jesus of the workers in the field. You got one person who worked there for an hour and then one who worked there all day. They both received the same payment. The illustration works fine. It doesn't matter if you've been a Christian for an hour or for a hundred years, you have the same amount of righteousness from Christ as anybody else.

Justin Perdue: I want to give a brief word before I shift my thoughts over tow where you're driving us to in terms of unity in the church and how we all are equally legitimate and righteous in Christ. A word to those of you listening who are struggling and are wrestling with assurance: if we're all honest, this is something that we all wrestle with consistently. How do I know that I really am good with God? How do I know that not just now, but in the future? That I'll finally be saved? When we look inward we assess ourselves and we come up empty because we think we have never loved God enough. I don't even know what to say about my love for God because it ebbs and flows so much and I've never felt the ways that I should feel and I struggle to do the right things. I find myself gravitating toward things that I shouldn't and don’t want to do. But I still do them, and it grieves and troubles me. What do I do?

The answer to it is never going to be found within yourself. It's never going to be found in your performance. It's never going to be found in what you're doing or not doing. It's never going to be found in your feelings or your affections. Because if you look there, it's hopeless. It's hopeless. Our confidence and our rest and our assurance and our peace and all those things can only come by looking outside of ourselves to Christ.

I know we say this all the time, but it's because we all need to hear it all the time. That Jesus really is enough. His work is sufficient. It's been counted to you through faith. It's as though you have really done it and the Father looks at you and you're wearing the robes of Christ and he is pleased and he loves you and he delights to save you because you're in his son. You know? And so we don't need to chase after our standing before the father. It's ours and now we live from it. And we can rejoice together in what Jesus has accomplished for us because we're never going to feel the right things or do all the right things or love God enough. It won't happen.

Jon Moffitt: So God sees you and accepts you and says, "Well done, child. You belong to Me and all the benefits of Me belong to you because you are righteous." If you're going to try and replace that righteousness with your own, do you really think that you have the ability to do a better job than Jesus? That's the answer you have to come to. Don't put that pressure on yourself because it's impossible to replace the level of obedience that Christ has already given us. You can't improve it. Not only can you not improve it, but you can't take it away. Your lack of obedience does not remove Jesus.

Justin Perdue: You can't out sin the mercy and grace of Jesus. As Richard Sibbes said hundreds of years ago, there is more mercy in Christ than there is sin in us. You can't. And now when we say things like “you can't out sin the mercy of Christ “, some people will hear us say that we’re encouraging people to sin and live licentious lives. That's absurd. No, that's not what we're saying. We're comforting people by saying that if you are in Christ Jesus, you will not wreck this thing because he's got you and you have everything that you could ever need by faith, not by works. There is a depth of mercy that we cannot fathom because, like you already said, Jon, we are so much worse than we ever thought. Every deed we do is tainted with sin. We've never done a perfect deed in the eyes of God on our own merit. And so of course, we have to look to Jesus for those things and for our perfection.

Jon Moffitt: If your conclusion after listening to us is, “Okay, then it sounds like I can go do whatever I want because if I have Christ’s righteousness and I can't out sin him then I'm just going to do it.” First of all, go ahead and try. Your Father loves you and He promises that because He loves you, He's going to discipline you. Meaning that you may find it pleasurable for a moment, but He will come in and He will make sin and its consequences unpleasant for you because sin is not what's best and it's not what is loving. And I promise you He'll do it out of love, not out of anger. If you believe that you can go do whatever you want, you're going to find out real quickly that pursuing sin does not produce the joy that Christ promises in pursuing him. You just won't have it. It's not possible.

Justin Perdue: The frightening reality would be when you look around at people who are living in sin and they're comfortable. That's a frightening reality whereas for God's children, it's not that way. When the redeemed run off into sin it doesn't go well. And it's not comfortable; there's misery associated with it. That's not because that's how it is for everybody because there are plenty of people who live in sin and are very comfortable there. But God's children won't be comfortable in sin because God will not allow that. And that's love, like you said, and it's not anger. It's love.

Jon Moffitt: I also think that the children of God can find themselves comfortable. This is where Paul says when someone's trapped and they don't really know how to get out. Uncomfortable may not be the appropriate word because you may be listening to this podcast right now and you may be trapped. This is where God uses the church to comfort, shepherd, and rebuke. Church discipline is a glorious protection for the believer.

Justin Perdue: It's for restoration.

Jon Moffitt: Yeah. If you believe in the gospel, you have to take sin seriously because it does absolutely make sense. If you say that Theocast is a bunch of antinomians, I'm sorry that you've come to those conclusions and maybe you aren't hearing everything that we're saying. That sin is the reason why Christ had to sweat drops of blood and experience agony. You can't look at hell and take sin lightly. God's hatred of sin is horrible.

Justin Perdue: God is very clear in his word, like we've already alluded to: stay away from sin because it will destroy your life. Nothing good ever comes from sin. Please don't misunderstand what we're saying.

At the same time, it is possible for Christians to sin really badly for a really long time. And yet at the end of it all, they are restored and they're brought back to the fold because God will do that. He uses various means to accomplish that. Some of those means we've already touched on like church discipline and what that looks like.

Jon Moffitt: Before we go into the membership, I'll just say this just to add to what you're saying, Justin: this is why Paul says our flesh is at war with our spirit, which means at times the spirit loses because the flesh is so strong. So to assume that once you become a believer you no longer war against the flesh is to take Romans 7 and rip it out of your Bible. We'll save that for another time.

Justin Perdue: If you're feeling that way and you're thinking, "I'm doing things I don't want to do and I'm not doing the things that I want to do," then take solace in the fact that every believer through history has known that same experience, including the two guys behind the microphone this morning. We all with Paul cry out about our wretchedness and we rejoice in the fact that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. That we have been justified by Jesus through faith and therefore we have peace with God, not just now but forever because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. That's the good news. That's the hope. It's rock solid and it's certain.

So, Jon, let's transition over to the members podcast. There's more to say, I think. I think where we're going to pick this up is on that self-righteousness piece and how we tend to compare ourselves to one another in the church; how the gospel and in particular this reality of the righteousness and merits in the works of Christ being counted to us should create unity; how when we're missing that unity and that love piece, it's indicative of a problem in terms of our understanding of the gospel. I think that's where we want to go.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Theocast. We hope this conversation sincerely has been encouraging to you. For those of you who are out there who are weary and struggling and fighting against your own corruption, we encourage you: press on, remove everything from you that's hindering you and look to Jesus who is the founder and the perfecter of your faith. He has saved you and he has perfected you for all time, even as you are wrestling against sin. So look to him and trust him.

We'll talk to you again next week.

### [**MEMBERS Podcast Transcript**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/comforts-from-th%E2%80%A6mbers-transcript/)

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### MEMBERS: Comforts from the Cross (Transcript)

*Published: March 4, 2020 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/members-comforts-from-the-cross-transcript*
*Tags: Assurance, Cross, Gospel, Theology of the Cross, Transcripts*

### **[Listen to Episode.](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/comforts-from-the-cross/https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/comforts-from-the-cross-members/)**

Justin Perdue: Welcome to the members podcast. We hope that the regular episode was encouraging to you as it was to us.

We're going to talk about self-righteousness and we're going to talk about comparative righteousness and how we do dumb things in the church sometimes. We tend to measure our sanctification, like we would, say, my son's height against the doorjamb to see who is growing the fastest.

Jon Moffitt: I would say Theocast is definitely not a watchdog ministry. We're not a discernment ministry but there are times when I feel like we need to pull a Galatians moment with the church and say, “Who bewitched you? It was before your very eyes that Christ was crucified. Did you begin by works of the flesh or by the work of the Spirit? Are you continuing by works?” This is kind of where this is coming from.

Justin Perdue: Can I tease? Can I do a little teaser, a little trailer of things to come?

We will be talking about the John Piper clip that's been all over Twitter in recent days about how it's futile to try to define saving faith apart from feelings. And he goes on to talk about all that. We're going to talk about feelings next week. So if you're listening to this in your podcast feed, next week will be us talking about faith and feelings and all that good stuff.

Jon Moffitt: When we are feeling this rebuke from Paul, what we are getting at is the comfort from the cross. He said it's before your very eyes that this took place. So you, you saw it and now you are denying the very thing that you saw and this is why he uses such strong language like bewitched. Who bewitched you? Who caused you to go from the hope of God into believing things that are equivalent to witchcraft? To be clear, he's not talking about gospel salvation. He's talking about gospel continuation as far as your Christian life. Continuing by faith.

Justin Perdue: Yeah. Sustenance and sanctification even.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. The Scripture has this thread that from the moment that Adam and Eve fell, what was the promise from God? What requirement did God put on Adam and Eve?

Justin Perdue: When they fell?

Jon Moffitt: Yeah. Did he give them a requirement?

Justin Perdue: I'm not sure exactly where you want to go with this. Are you talking about in terms of the covenant of grace?

Jon Moffitt: Yeah, the covenant of grace. So Adam and Eve fell and God finds him in the garden. He rebukes them. He reverses them.

Justin Perdue: The curse happens, but then he promises a Redeemer. Right?

Jon Moffitt: And in that promise of the Redeemer, what does he say? Is there a requirement for them to know something?

Justin Perdue: No. He tells them exactly what he's going to do.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. Right. So from the first _evangelion_, the _protoevangelion_, there is no requirement placed on them other than this is going to happen. And of course, what was the option for Adam and Eve? To simply believe it - which we do know that they do because at one point he thought the Redeemer had come.

Same thing when you move down into when God makes the promise to Abraham. What requirement does he put on Abraham? He doesn't put one on. So you just start walking through these promises that he puts on people as it relates to the redemption and there is nothing there that relates to a requirement. Here's the confusion: people will say, “Jon, I agree we are not saved by works. We hear that.” But then, Justin, what happens is what do they throw at us? James 2, right? Faith without works is dead.

Justin Perdue: A couple of thoughts here. People will throw out Romans 2 also because Paul there is very clear that it's not hearers of the Law but doers of the Law who will be justified. In that context, Paul is building an argument. He's not implying that we can do the Law because he goes on just a few verses later to say nobody's good and nobody's righteous and no one will be justified by the Law. That's why the righteousness of God has been revealed apart from the Law. Although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, it's the righteousness of God by faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Of course, in James, we've referenced it so many times recently in terms of what James is bringing up: favoritism and not loving one another and all of those kinds of things. He's exhorting those believers to live in a way that's appropriate in terms of love and unity. As soon as we will say we're not saved by works, we immediately pivot that and then start to dump all kinds of requirements on people about how you need to live in order to know that you're saved. And that's because we take things that are true in the Bible and draw terrible conclusions from them. It sounds biblical enough on the face of it that it gains traction with people. We'll say things like, “If you are justified, then there will be transformation of life and there will be fruit.” That's true. “If there is no transformation of life, you haven't been justified.” Okay, true. But then where that goes is wrong and this is the conclusion people draw: therefore we need to tell people to do good works so that they know they're saved. That's not how it works. You can't reverse the relationship. You can't reverse engineer this thing. You have to herald the gospel of Jesus and that's what actually gives rise to transformation of life and good works. It's not done on the basis of merit. It's done from a place of peace and rest and security. You were just talking about the unconditional promises of God in Genesis 3:15, the unconditional promise to the elect through Abraham. You were also talking about other promises that have been made through Scripture. There are conditional pieces, too. The Law of Moses, the Mosaic covenant, was given, which we would understand to be in one sense, not formally but with respect to its terms, a reissuing of the covenant of works.

And then we also have the Davidic covenant, which we referenced in the regular podcast that has conditions on it. But we see that the Messiah, the Christ, is the one who from before the foundation of the world was determined to meet those requirements in the place of his people. We're not saved by our works. We're saved by the works of Christ and then know we live on in him underneath the banner of Christ and his righteousness in the church.

This is why it's stupid for us to start comparing our works, deeds, righteousness to each other as though there is some merit attached to that; as though some of us are more inside the favor of God than others, or that God is more pleased with me than He is you because I'm more disciplined than you are or whatever it may be.

Jon, I'd love for us to riff on this for a minute: comparative righteousness and measuring one another against are each other in the church - what does that lead to? Has it ever produced a good thing in the church? Answer: never. And what does it produce? Disunity. It produces pride. It produces bickering. It produces backstabbing. It produces people trying to cut other people down and diminishing the good works of others. It. It does all of that nonsense in the church and it does not foster love or peace at all. It makes the church a terrible place to be. It's the least safe place in the world to be in the church when this is how it's going. It can't be a haven for sinners.

Jon Moffitt: The two things that Jesus says in John 17, which is love will produce unity, that is his and the Father's love and affection for you which are equal amongst everyone will produce unity, and his glory given to you will produce unity. Let me go back to our confession. We weekly mention one of the chapters in our confession and just a couple weeks ago, we finished chapter 16\. Let me just read to you what the confession says here because I think it's very helpful and clarifying. It says, “Good works are only those works that God has commanded in his holy Word.” Period. Stop. First of all, I can't tell you how many evangelical leaders are created for Christians that have nothing to do with God's word.

For instance, I'm going to go after the new sacrament of personal quiet time with the Lord. Albeit can be helpful, it's not a command as far as it relates to personal Bible reading. We're going to leave that there for another time. This is why the confession says, as it relates to scripture - and you can go and look these up yourself - the works that do not have this warrant are invented by people out of blind zeal or on a pretense of good intentions and are not truly good. Did you hear this? Are not truly good works. And Justin and I will openly confess this so we're not antinomian: “These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruit and evidence of a true and living faith. Through good works, believers express their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, build up their brothers and sisters, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of opponents, and glorify God."

Now point three, and this is where we're getting to as far as equality, "Their ability to do good works does not arise at all from themselves but entirely from the Spirit of Christ." There, my dear friends is where if you are accomplishing good works - and I will just simplify them: to love God and love your neighbor - all good works and all commands are wrapped up in that. If you are actually accomplishing that, you need to stop and go, “Praise God that His Spirit is in me doing that because on my own I cannot do this.” So for you to take credit for your good works, you are denying the very Scriptures that have been handed to you and the historic confessions (that is if you are confessional and if not, I encourage you to even just read them). But we have been told time and time again. Philippians 2:13, Hebrews 6:11, or even Ephesians where it says “works prepared for you before the foundations of the world”, these are works given to us by the sovereign God, not you. So the moment you start judging or comparing yourself saying that you have sanctified or improved yourself based upon your works and efforts, you are actually taking credit for something that doesn't belong to you.

Justin Perdue: A few thoughts. One, when you were talking about the good works that are invented in the evangelical church, I can't help but think about Mark 7 where Jesus will indict the Jewish religious leaders and say that teach as doctrine the traditions of men. That is rampant in our current church context: the traditions of men taught as doctrine. Let me just go ahead and say it: personal spiritual disciplines are that. They are the traditions of men taught as doctrine. There is goodness in them in that you can apply them and they can be useful. But to teach them the way that they are often taught as though they are the definite article way that you will endure and grow in the faith is a tradition of man. It's not given to us in God's word as you already alluded to. I know this is a hot button topic for some, but somebody needs to say these things.

And then I'm thinking about the good works piece that we actually do. We cannot take any credit whatsoever for the good works that we do. That's part of what it means to be in Christ. We do this humblebrag or we'll talk about the way our lives are changing and the ways that we've been doing this, reading this, and whatever, and then we'll just add, “By God's grace”. We just throw that in there. That's kind of the equivalent of “bless his heart” and I can say anything about him as long as I say “by God's grace”. I can just brag on myself and talk about the ways that I'm being sanctified.

I'm not trying to impede everybody's motivations here and mow down everybody and burn the village down. But I think we've all done this. Even when I think about 1 Corinthians 15, which is where we often get this from when Paul will talk about how he was; think about what he says, though, he talks about himself as one untimely born, right? That he wasn't even really worthy to be considered an apostle. He's talking about the fact that he is unworthy. Part of what he means by that is because he persecuted the church, for crying out loud. He was unworthy to be an apostle. Then he says, “I did work harder than any of them.” And then he says yet, “But it wasn't me, but it was Christ in me that did that.” That's what we end up always saying is whenever I do a good work, like sincerely when I do a good work, "Yet not I, but through Christ in me." If we really believe that, then we would never walk around like a bunch of peacocks or like a bunch of boy scouts wearing all our merit badges with respect to all the things that we've been doing for Christ or in our personal spiritual disciplines. And we would read the Bible and realize that, as you said, any good work we are doing is not only because of Christ in me but also because it's been prepared beforehand. Because we are born and created in Christ as his workmanship to walk in the good works prepared beforehand, for us to walk in Ephesians 2: 10\. We need to quit this nonsense of comparing our work to others and ranking people from the best down to the least in our local churches. It's just terrible.

Jon Perdue: I'm going to read a portion of scripture that I haven't read on Theocast in many years. It's 2 Corinthians 3:18\. Paul is encouraging the believers. The Corinthian church is pretty wicked at this point and this is his second letter to them. In his encouragement to them, he says this as far as their transformation goes: “And we all, with unveiled face,” unveiled meaning that the blindness of our sin has been removed cause the light of the gospel truths, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.”

This is to go back to your point on spiritual disciplines. We are told to discipline ourselves and that discipline produces growth. Paul says looking at the glory of Christ produces transformation. “Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God.” He's putting in perspective of issues of sin, issues of the conscience, and transformation. But look at verse 5 here. It says,” For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”

He's saying that the moment we look at the glory of Christ, and just to put it into perspective so you understand, the glory related to what he accomplished on the cross - so Jesus' credit for what he did. As we look at the credit of the high and exalted one, Jesus - who was our righteousness, who died on the cross - as we look at that and we see the glory of who Jesus is, God uses that to transform us into His image. That part of gazing is where good works come from.

Here's the difference: we find our motivation and we find our hope in obedience based upon the work of Christ. Going back to the original point of this podcast - comforts from the cross - we look at what we have received from the cross and it's from that moment we find our transformation and our motivation for obedience. Most Christians find their transformation from fear and their motivation from guilt. “You better be improving or else you will not be saved. And how dare you not obey God? You bad Christian.” Guilt.

Justin Perdue: I'm thinking about the glory of Christ. I agree completely that when the apostles were talking about the glory of Christ, they are meaning in a primary way the glory that is in his particular work of redemption - what he has done, his redemptive work. How is it that we grow in the faith? It's by beholding that. In contemplating that. How does that happen practically in our lives? Does it happen when we're by ourselves? Sure, it can. But it happens primarily when we gather corporately as the church. What should be the point of our corporate gatherings every time we meet? It should be to read from the word of God; to preach, and herald the glories of Christ, the grace of Christ, the mercy of Christ, the love of Christ, the righteousness of Christ; for sinners to then come to the table to receive the merits, righteousness, and the glory of Christ by faith as we participate in his body and blood; to sing of the glory and the mercy and the grace of Jesus; to pray those very same things together. That's the point of the corporate gathering.

How terrible is it to just even thinking about the corporate gatherings that happen in many churches where those glories of Christ are often missing, or at best assumed when people get together. There's a reason why people probably in their experience are thinking, "I don't know that I really grow in Christ by attending the church where I go because his mercies and his glories are not so much heralded. It's really more about me and what I need to be doing." And that's a tragedy. But the point is that the apostles do not speak in terms of our private devotional lives as to how we grow. The apostles speak to congregations and say, this is what you need: you need each other. You need Christ. You need to behold Christ and you need each other. This is how you're going to make it. This is how you're going to endure and this is how you're going to grow.

Ephesians 4 - when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love toward maturity. Consider how to build one another up in the love and good works.

Justin Perdue: Do not neglect to assemble together. That's Hebrews 10\. Don't neglect to assemble together, but consider how to stir one another up in love and good works.

Jon Moffitt: I preached this last Sunday and we rotate as elders on presenting the table to our congregation. The Sunday I got done preaching, I really exerted myself and was pretty exhausted. I was sitting on the front row and one of my elders gets up there and he is able to put the gospel into words in ways that just crushed me. I walked up to him afterward and I said, “I want to thank you, as my brother, for giving me, Jesus.” And he looked at me and he goes, “You do realize I just repeat what you do.” It doesn't matter. I don't care who it's coming from. It could come from the mouth of a child, but it's Jesus.

Justin Perdue: I agree. One of the young guys in our church, whom I love dearly, leads service a decent amount and preaches on occasion. He welcomes people to church. I'm sitting there on the front row and he's welcoming everybody and just kind of letting them know, “If you're going to know anything about us here at CBC, here's what you need to know.” Every week he reminds people of what we are and how wretched we are and how we're coming in here feeling all kinds of ways. “Maybe you're crushing it this week, maybe you're despairing, but here's why we're all here. Here's what we need. Here's what Jesus has done. We need Christ and we need each other.” I'm sitting there and I'm just like, “Yeah, let's do this thing. This is what I need.” And it's so wonderful. Yeah, those are things that I've probably said a thousand times. Sure. But I'm listening to my brother-in-Christ say them and I'm like, “Absolutely. I'm a disaster. I'm a wreck. Everything that I've done this week has been tainted with sin. I've been fighting against my own corruption. I'm exhausted and I need to be reminded of the hope that is mine. And brother, thank you for giving me Christ and pointing this whole congregation to Jesus before we even read the Scriptural call to worship.”

Jon Moffitt: One last thing. We started this a while back and we're slowly transitioning it in our church. What we do is we have one song, then we welcome, and then we do scripture reading. Right after scripture reading, and so we are presented with God's truth, we all read out loud to each other a corporate prayer of confession. Some of these confessions are very pointed. They're very pointed. At the end of each confession, we proclaim 1 John, which is those who confess their sins, he is faithful and just to forgive it. And every time I'm able to preach the gospel. We just confess our utter and failure before the Father. We just received the pardon and assurance. Is there any greater reason to sing than now? Now that we've done this, our congregation doesn't see singing as like, “Oh, this is what we do.” We see singing as we were just pardoned. We were just reminded of the gospel and man, do these people sing out because it's like, “Let's praise Christ for what he's done again this Sunday.” And then we go into preaching God's word.

Justin Perdue: We're singing Christ. That was a good parting shot.

Thank you to the members for listening to this edition of the members podcast. Thank you again for your generous support of the ministry. Continue to tell others about Theocast and help us spread this wonderful news of the sufficiency of Christ and the rest that we have in him to many people as possible.

Thank you and we will speak with you again next week.

[**Regular Podcast Episode**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/comforts-from-the-cross-members/)  
[**Regular Podcast Transcripts**](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/comforts-from-the-cross-transcript/)

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### The Dark Side Of Christianity (Transcript)

*Published: November 17, 2019 | Author: Theocast*
*URL: https://theocast.org/blogs/podcast-transcription/the-dark-side-of-christianity-transcript*
*Tags: 2019*

### Podcast audio can be found [HERE](https://theocastorg.wpengine.com/the-dark-side-of-christianity-2/).

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Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we're going to be talking about the darkness and the evil that exists within all of us. The Christian life is often anything but clean. It's messy. It's hard. We're not always on this nice, clean, upward trajectory of ongoing improvement. We're going to talk honestly about that and talk honestly about the fact that it's impossible to navigate the Christian life in this fallen world until we come to grips with who we really are. We're excited to have this conversation, and we hope that it's helpful to you. Stay tuned

Justin Perdue: Jon, what are we talking about today, Bro?

Jon Moffitt: So, I don't want to scare everybody away. Today I think it is going to be very beneficial. But if you, if you walk with us for at least 15 minutes and let us set the platform a little bit.

Justin Perdue: So, you're saying we're coming out of the gates hot.

Jon Moffitt: We're going to come out of the gates a little hot,

Jimmy Buehler: Hot and dark.

Jon Moffitt: But I would say with every man around this table, and, for a lot of the listeners who've walked with us for a long time, you're going to appreciate this conversation.

Justin Perdue: I think so too.

Jon Moffitt: Christianity, in general, is a glorious movement, of course, started by our Savior, Jesus Christ. But there's a confusion when it comes to this movement, and a lot of it is, the precious moments movement where everything seems clean and bright and the status should be always moving up and forward. And it seems white and pure. And then those of us who are pastors who then go behind the door and close it and people then say, my life is not there. Many who listen and hopefully those of you who are new, you will begin to identify with what we are trying to present, which is a very old concept of very old theology. This is nothing new. None of the pastors around this table are going to say, you're not going to believe what we have discovered.

Justin Perdue: That's right.

Jon Moffitt: Unless we've been reading old books and it's rediscovering. Today is more about, and just work with me as, as we unfold this today is more about the dark side of Christianity, the real side of Christianity,

Justin Perdue: The dark side of the Christian life. This is one of those moments where if I was preaching a sermon, I would be like, hey, before the parking lot empties, just hang with me for a minute. This conversation will be like that, maybe.

Jon Moffitt: Yeah. Grease stains are real.

Justin Perdue: They are.

Jon Moffitt: And, I would say this isn't because I've experienced this as a pastor, which is true. I grew up in a pastor's home. I've been a pastor for, well over going over 15 years. And from my own personal life, the Christian life is not bright, and it's not clean, and it's not pure. The hope is. The final state is absolutely...

Justin Perdue: and Christ is.

Jon Moffitt: And absolutely, and our joy, which is just placed in that. So today is more of, I would say, a reality check. Let's if we're all willing for everyone who's listening to us in your car and your headphones, washing dishes, walking, mowing the lawn, if you were to say and evaluate your life, you would say, okay, yes, if we're going to be completely honest, and this isn't going to be broadcast across social media, the Christian life is very much an uphill climb that is muddy, dirty, and grimy. And what do we do? How do you evaluate that from the sense of all of these promises being cleansed, being new? I think Paul sets us up for this concept of I hate what I do and the things that I want to do I'm not doing them, oh, wretched men than I am. And does Paul stop there? No, there is hope. And yet there is reality. So, today's podcast is how do you marry the two of those and then move forward.

Justin Perdue: And before we even jump into the messy piece again, the hope is what allows us to stare the reality in the face and call it what it is. And say, okay, yeah, we're going to pull back the curtains of our lives, and we're going to talk about it honestly. Because of Christ, we actually can have this conversation.

Jon Moffitt: I think it's impossible. And that's a very bold statement. I understand that.

Justin Perdue: it's a strong word.

Jon Moffitt: I think it's almost impossible to move forward and truly experience rest until you are willing to admit the actual state that you're in.

Justin Perdue: Could not agree more. Right.

Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. So, I don't know if you guys have ever like shared bad news with somebody. I'm sure you have. But the idea of, you wouldn't believe what just happened. I just want you to know right away that everybody's okay. But and then you go on to share about some tragic thing or whatever. And, and really that's what we're trying to talk about today is we want to talk about the dark side of the Christian life and the Christian heart.

Justin Perdue: and the Christian experience.

Jon Moffitt: But most people don't want to talk about it.

Jimmy Buehler: No, but we're doing it against the backdrop of the hope of the gospel where it's like, no, the good news is here. Right? Everybody, you're okay. Everybody's okay. To go on that analogy, but here's some tragic reality.

Justin Perdue: So, I'm going to do this at the risk of sounding shameless. The tagline for our church Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville is imperfect people, perfect savior. And so, what we're talking about right now is that reality that we are far from perfect. And we're going to be talking about that, and we can talk about it because we are all looking to, and pointing one another to, the Perfect One, who is our righteousness, who is the ground of our assurance. And so now let's be real.

Jon Moffitt: So, I would say in the podcast, we try and ground ourselves. by reading through a confession. For instance, a lot of, some of you that may be drawn to the Westminster Confession around this table, our churches confess the 1689 London Baptist Confession. And in those confessions, you are faced with some hard realities.

Justin Perdue: Yeah, you are.

Jon Moffitt: And the realities in that is that even though Jesus Christ has washed your sins, he's cleansed you, he has come to live within you. You have been grafted into Christ, right? This is the glorious, the truth of our baptism. We're grafted into Christ. He has given us a new heart, a new desire.

Justin Perdue: And a new identity.

Jon Moffitt: And then you wake up the next morning and say, why am I still angry?

Jimmy Buehler: Why do I still feel like this?

Jon Moffitt: Right? Why am I still sad? Why am I mad?

Jimmy Buehler: Why do I yell at my kid?

Jon Moffitt: And so, what happens is that leads you to great despair. So, we evaluate our life and say, I should be this way, and I'm not. Something's either, I'm not saved, or something's broken.

Justin Perdue: That's right.

Jon Moffitt: I don't know what your guys' experience is, but many, many years of my life, I woke up and went, I have to continue to fake because I am not like everybody else I see at church. I'm not like them. I'm broken because they show up as if everything is fine. I show up and go, nothing is fine. Everything is wrong. Has that been your experience?

Jimmy Buehler: Yeah, absolutely. I remember having conversations with people and thinking they're talking like this, and they are, they're praying this way, and they appear this way on the outside, but something within me feels very off-center. I'm not feeling the way that they're feeling by what they're saying.

Justin Perdue: But what is said not by their actions.

Jimmy Buehler: That's right. I mean still to this day when I see somebody, and here’s just a glimpse into the wickedness of my own heart, when I see somebody, doing a pious act, if you will, my first thought is not to rejoice and that the Spirit of God is moving within them. My first thought is, why don't I do that, man, I should. And, and to use that word, you said it, I think Justin, you said it earlier, the "should" word, this "should" word can be so dangerous in the Christian life.

Jon Moffitt: So, there's, there's a darkness. I appreciate men like Luther, and even Calvin, who understand the darkness of the heart. I've been around enough, I grew up in a pastor's home, my wife grew up in a pastor's home. Unfortunately, we have seen men who are faithful and men who are not. We've seen a lot of pain. And I remember the first time I read the London Baptist Confession, chapter 5.5\. It made my heart feel so safe because I understood there wasn't something wrong with me; there was something wrong with this world that Christ would make right. Let me just read this real quick. I think it's helpful. "The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does not often, does oftentimes leave for a season his own children." Please note he is speaking of regenerate...

Justin Perdue: speaking of believers

Jon Moffitt: people who belonged to Him.

Justin Perdue: Who have been adopted by God.

Jon Moffitt: Christians, the Spirit lives within them. Okay. So, we're talking about new creation, people. "His own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts to chastise them for their former sins or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their own hearts that they may be humbled and raised to them a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Him." I exploded with joy to know that my gracious Father, at times, exposes to me the absolute frailty and deceitfulness of my own flesh. So that I will turn in desperation saying, Father, if without you, I would be, I would be deserving and am deserving of hell. So those of you who say, and wake up and say, I don't deserve God's love, yes, you're right. It's true.

Justin Perdue: And it's actually worse than you ever imagined.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. The mirror is foggy at the moment.

Jimmy Buehler: I believe John Newton, who said, I'm a mystery unto myself. A heap of inconsistency. Because I don't know about you, but I can go through particular weeks. You know you feel pretty good. Like, Hey, I'm, and I'm using air quotes. My sin doesn't feel that bad. And so, you can get really confident in yourself and then all of a sudden, that can change on a dime. That can change in a moment.

Jon Moffitt: when someone doesn't use a blinker.

Jimmy Buehler: Right. You're exactly right. Yeah. And it just, we as people are so inconsistent. I've always loved the word fickle. We are like the fickleness of the human heart. I was talking about this the other day with somebody where the language of, it's okay, God knows your heart in that. That's what terrifies me. That's what terrifies me is that God knows my heart because I just have a little glimpse of my heart, and I can see the wickedness there. God sees all the way to the bottom.

Jon Moffitt: Yeah. Now let's call your wife.

Jimmy Buehler: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There you go. Let's get her on.

Justin Perdue: That's right. Well, not only do we love to ground ourselves in the confessions, obviously, we'd love to ground ourselves in scripture. So, to talk about, like you just alluded to, Jimmy, God sees down to the bottom. Well, what does God say about our hearts? Think about Genesis chapter six, where God saw that the thoughts and the inclinations of man's heart were only evil continually. That describes all of us,

Jimmy Buehler: Put that on a Coffee Cup,

Justin Perdue: Right? That's not going to be slapped up on the refrigerator.

Jon Moffitt: Just read Noah's life.

Justin Perdue: and there are no precious moments figurines with those verses on them.

Jon Moffitt: Hahaha. Absolutely not.

Jimmy Buehler: Jeremiah 17:9 the heart is desperately sick. Who can understand it? Answer. No one. Romans 3:9-20 I think it's probably familiar to many where Paul sites, the Psalms and Isaiah, and just to make the point that there is no one who does good. There's no one who's righteous. No one who seeks after God, right? No, not even one, like not even one, Paul?

Jon Moffitt: And even James is talking to the believer. And whose he warning against? He's warning against Satan, who can come in and absolutely deceive you because you're that vulnerable.

Justin Perdue: You are that vulnerable.

Jon Moffitt: You're that easy to deceive.

Justin Perdue: Absolutely. And then, of course, it's already been referenced once today. Romans Chapter Seven, Galatians chapter five, where we are told by the Apostle Paul that the internal war between the Spirit, our inner man, and the flesh is real to where we find ourselves not doing the things we want to do. And then doing the things that we don't want to do, which as you already said, Jon, it leads him to scream out, to cry out wretched man that I am, who's going to rescue me? And thanks be to God for Jesus Christ. But I know that we're three pastors sitting around this table right now. And as we've spent time together recently, we're talking about things that we've seen in the church.

Jon Moffitt: Which led to this podcast.

Justin Perdue: Exactly. It led to this podcast. We've talked about even our own, our own hearts. My goodness, one of the things that I think we're all very convicted about is never just as pastors, it's like less anybody ever misunderstands. We do not have it all together. There are many guys, sadly, in ministry that have built their ministry on a public persona of having it all together.

Jimmy Buehler: Strength.

Justin Perdue: Strengths. Oh yeah. Like the pastor's marriage is always doing well that he's not having a rough season if I ask him how he's doing.

Jon Moffitt: He supposed to be on top of his game.

Justin Perdue: He's not stumbling, he's not struggling. He's certainly not questioning anything. His affections are where they need to be and whatever.

Jimmy Buehler: I remember watching, I think it was some sort of documentary on a large megachurch pastor. It was from a secular worldview. They were fascinated by the success and the growth of this church and the size of this church. And that's neither here nor there. That's not the point. But the pastor was speaking to the reporter and one of the things that he said, dare I say, haunts me to this day because he says, I know that I'm not allowed to have an off day spiritually. I remember watching that as a young pastor and that it was crushing because I had one yesterday or today, and I know I'm going to have one next week.

Justin Perdue: Well, I know I've had because we all can buy into the lie. And this is true for the Christian, this is true for the pastor, that we should have it all together. That we should be better by now. So there, I can't tell you, there have been a number of Sunday mornings in the last several years as I've been the lead pastor of CBC where my sin and my frailty becomes incredibly apparent on Sunday morning, and I'm wrestling with my own frame, and I'm wrestling with the wickedness and the corruption that still is in me and the enemy immediately just jumps all over me. How in the world are you fit to now go and preach God's word and Shepherd God's people when you are such a train wreck?

Jon Moffitt: I had that. I've been preaching for a long time in a very different context, and I would say in the last two years, why no, even maybe in the last five years in a church where we do take communion every week, there's a side of me that the only reason I can climb into the pulpit is knowing that the Gospel truth of the table will be ministered to me, so I come to the pulpit as a congregant knowing that at the end we will be feasting on Christ and trusting in that means. And that isn't to say that I don't get into the pulpit prepared. But there is never a moment that the more I look at Christ and the more the gospel becomes a mirror to my own life, and I look into that mirror, and I am so horrified by my sin that I come in, and I look down upon those who are sitting down in a chair. I look at them and go, do we not need Christ?

Justin Perdue: Do we? We, we have come in desperate need of what only Jesus can provide. All of us.

Jimmy Buehler: I think a lot of what we said, most people are going to be able to recognize that. Relate to that. They see that they struggle with sin. They see the wickedness of their own heart and, in many respects, some more, some less. But I guess I'm curious, how do you think the average Christian, what are some ways that you think the average Christian seeks to deal with this?

Jon Moffitt: Yeah, this is tough. I, if you're new to Theocast, if this might be episode one. You're going, first of all, this is too heavy. Guys, relax, and I agree. I mean if you could go have lunch with us, you would laugh. We have laughed so hard today, and there's this side of it where, because the three of us understand our reality, we don't take ourselves seriously. You can't take yourself too seriously. No, you can't. It's almost like when you're playing a junkyard ball, right? You're playing junk or basketball, and pro shows up, you're like, I'm not going to even. We’re going to just laugh and have a good time.

Justin Perdue: Sometimes over nineties R&B.

Jimmy Buehler: That's right. Absolutely.

Justin Perdue: You've got to give the people what they want.

Jimmy Buehler: Should be our new intro music.

Jon Moffitt: I like our intro music, man. To your question, Jimmy, I would say the hardest part of this whole conversation is you have to admit you're not who you think you are. You're not who you're presenting yourself to be. You know who you are. I'll take that back. You know who you are, you're just not who you present yourself to be, and especially not on Instagram or Facebook.

Justin Perdue: And you've gotta be willing to talk in public like you think in private.

Jon Moffitt: Like, what's the borderline of dirty laundry?

Jimmy Buehler: That's true. We’re not saying throw discretion and discernment out the window and just like relationally throw up all over people. That's not what we're saying.

Jon Moffitt: Is it more a posture than a conversation?

Justin Perdue: A posture, then a conversation? I think so. I think that's fair. Like I, I'm wanting to process that on the fly, but I think that's a fair way to put it.

Jimmy Buehler: You don't, you don't jump into a conversation, hey, I'm Jimmy. What's your name? What's your worst sin when you're going to stop? You don't jump into that. However, I think a lot of times I, myself; I operate in almost this cognitive dissonance where I have this. I know who I am. I know what I'm presenting to you. I'm wondering what your perception of me is, and particularly, and my wife may giggle at this if she, dares to listen, that when she's there, and I'm meeting somebody, it's always, well, I know who I am, I know I'm presenting, my wife really knows who I am. So, there's this constant dissonance, and I know that as Christians, a lot of times, we try to mask that. We try to cover that up. Or what we try to do is we try to discipline ourselves out of it. And so, what we say is, okay, I sinned in this way. I sinned x, y, z today, but tomorrow I'm going to do ABC of the Christian life, and that's going to be a little bit of offset to silence that inner voice. You know the Law working on me.

Jon Moffitt: I recently walked into a movie theater with my children to watch a new Marvel movie. What fascinated me about the experience, I sat back for a moment because we got the early enough, what fascinated me is no one there postures themselves as somebody. We're all there to receive new information and experience as recipients. So, I never, there was never like at the person next to me in front of me or behind me, I never felt like I needed to do anything or to prove to them or to lobby. We were there to all receive what we had paid for. But when you walk into the church, that is not the case. There is posturing; there is lobbying, there is presentation, positioning. You have to position yourself as acceptable and what the gospel does, and if you continue to listen to Theocast, what the gospel does, the Law absolutely says stop posturing.

Jimmy Buehler: Because it crushes you.

Jon Moffitt: You are here to observe that you are unworthy. That's right. You are here to observe that there is one who is perfect. There's one who obeyed. There was one who is worthy, and you are not that one.

Jimmy Buehler: Go ask Isaiah how posturing in Isaiah 6 went.

Justin Perdue: Put the coal on my lips. That's right.

Jimmy Buehler: Woe is me. Woe is me.

Justin Perdue: And then when you truly hear the Law of God read over you, you sit properly, by the way.

Jon Moffitt: You would never try to achieve it properly.

Justin Perdue: No, it'd be, it'd be insane. But honestly, we're not talking; again, this goes to my comment earlier, well, God knows your heart.

Jimmy Buehler: Exactly. That's the problem.

Justin Perdue: The Law confronts that. It does that. I do know your heart, and I mean that's the sermon on the mount. You have heard it said, do not murder and almost everybody, if not everybody listening to this podcast, can say, yeah, good. I didn't do that.

Jon Moffitt: If you've ever been angry at anyone, that is equated to murder. Whether you accept it or not, that's reality.

Justin Perdue: And all Christ is doing is, we're all saying in that moment is he is preaching and applying the Law to the heart as it was always intended to be. Preached and applied.

Jon Moffitt: I think that's the weight that Christians feel that is often I think shifted or moved. I think it needs to remain. Otherwise, the gospel doesn't make any sense. Like when you walk in, and you go, I am an epic failure. Everything I think I should be; I am not. And I want to say, Yes, Agree. So, am I right? This is why Jesus says that he is absolutely the only way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to him except through what? No one can come to the Father except through him.

Jimmy Buehler: Exactly. That's right.

Justin Perdue: And I couldn't agree more about the Law. The problem in many cases is that the Law has been so relativized and dumbed down that we have diluted ourselves into thinking that we can keep it. And I agree that that first use of the Law if we're talking about how it's been understood historically theologically, that first use of the Law, which is to show us our sin and drive us to the savior, that needs to be heralded to the redeemed every single Lord's Day. So that we do feel the weight of the Law and we do understand I've got no shot. Like I am absolutely wrecked, ruined, and bankrupt before a holy God as I look at his requirements and as I assess my life, thank God for Jesus. And then, of course, we can talk about how we live as believers, Third use of the Law. And I think a lot of times that confusion about, between the Law and the gospel certainly, but even that first and that third use, it presents all kinds of bad things in the church and in the life of the Christian.

Jon Moffitt: I think this is why even if you had a congregant or a friend come to you and say, I've been reading Deuteronomy, and it's rough, very rough. I don't understand blood and this and that. And there's a side of me that goes, are you feeling it’s kind of difficult or like, yeah, there's so much. Right? Right! And that's not even a fraction of what God requires. Yeah. Like I would say that's entry-level and they would go, that's insane. Alright. You need to understand what God requires. Not One human has come one step close to it, and then Christ comes on the scene. And it wasn't even a thought. It's like, no, I obey the Father. That's what I, that's what I do.

Justin Perdue: Yes. So, where we've gotten is to the place of, we're talking about the total depravity of man. We're not talking about the utter depravity, and this is important. This is very, very important. It's an important distinction where the utter depravity of man would say, it's just completely lawless. It's anarchy.

Jimmy Buehler: We're as bad as we could ever be. That's not what we're saying.

Justin Perdue: That is not, don't hear what we're not saying. What we're talking about total depravity, the theological term noetic effects of sin. It's woven throughout all of your soul, all of your mind, all of your personhood. But again, to get to that question, the idea of what do we do? How have Christians today, think of just the modern church scene today, and we'll speak to the American church because that's where we are. The ways that we've tried to combat that. And so, Luther, he talked about the idea of, I went to the monastery. I'm, I'm, I'm extremely paraphrasing here. I went to the monastery, but that old rascal speaking of himself came with me. And so, no Protestant today is begging to go to the monastery. But I think what we do is we build these kinds of spiritual monasteries. And the way we do that is we try to spiritually discipline ourselves out. And it's like, it's not that we do that apart from Christ, but what I think happens is that Christ is in the background. Christ becomes the taskmaster of, complete these disciplines, do these tasks, and you will have, kind of the Christian life that I designed you to have.

Jon Moffitt: This is Galatians three when Paul says, wait, wait, wait a minute. How did you begin by the Spirit was it works for the flesh because no, it was by preaching of the gospel that brings forth faith by the Spirit? It's by the work of the Spirit. And then later on in Colossians, he says, you're doing all of these works by the flesh to try and control the flesh, and they're not working right now listen to be fair, and to be clear, we're not throwing out common sense. We're also not throwing out, Listen, be wise. But it's very clear in Paul and in Christ that there are means by which God uses to grow and strengthen us and to protect us. And unfortunately, we have transitioned those, as Jimmy said, into disciplines. If I am quiet, if I do this, if I eat this way, sleep this way, journal this way, read this way. Therefore, I'll be a better Christian.

Justin Perdue: That's right. And even think to use the language of new creation. Oftentimes we think about being a new creation, meaning that I'm doing all of that stuff. Like, oh, I'm a new creation. Therefore, that means that my life looks like a, b, c, d, progression. It's that continual upward trajectory. It's an ongoing improvement, all of that kind of stuff. It's linear, it's nice, it's clean, it's tidy. Because I'm a new creation in Christ Jesus, and that is not the presentation of the New Testament. Another disclaimer that I think we can make as we've talked about this, we're not excusing sin, we're not excusing ridiculous behavior in all of this. And even with respect to pastors, we’ve talked about our own hearts, as we've sat around this table, there are such things as elder qualifications, we're not disputing any of them.

Jon Moffitt: And every, everyone around the mic, the moment I feel like one of you or are in myself and disqualified, we should call it out.

Justin Perdue: Absolutely. We should. So, don't misunderstand us in anything that we're saying. And at the same time, we're talking about the fact that the human heart is desperately sick and that we, as we've just talked about with total depravity, every aspect, our person has been corrupted and tainted by sin.

Jimmy Buehler: And I would add to that, that we're not, we're not seeking to excuse sin at all. No, no, nobody's saying that. But what we are saying is, but we're not surprised by it. Not at all. No. So when I have someone before me confessing something, I remember confessing sin to somebody, and I just said, I feel like this is weird. And that person just looked at me and just said, well, sin is weird. It just kind of brought that weight of lightness. Where I mean we were talking about this earlier on John's porch of you go in the Old Testament man, there's some weird stuff. Stuff on Noah. It's some rough reading.

Jon Moffitt: Okay. The fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Just go read their history. You're going to walk away with; you're gonna need a drink of water.

Justin Perdue: How many people do that are like, Hey, I just sold off my wife.

Jimmy Buehler: Well, I know. We all just want to be like father Abraham, and this is not the slam Abraham, but it's like, man, I know many people in my church who have done better than Abraham when it comes to their marriage or whatever.

Jon Moffitt: I've never cheated on my wife to be clear.

Jimmy Buehler: God be praised.

Jon Moffitt: I've never lied about my wife, and no one is ever going to call me the Father of the faith. Which should be a glory to God and not to Abraham. I think there's a side of it to be clear, and in the past, Theocast has been accused of being antinomian. For those of you who don't know, that word means anti-law, we're against holiness or against the laws of God. And I want to explain something to you. There's a difference between acknowledging the frailty of man. I will tell you this, if tomorrow I could love my wife, love God and love my neighbor with all of my heart without fail, I promise you my life would be better if I didn't do that.

Justin Perdue: That sounds amazing.

Jon Moffitt: So please know that that is not a reality that I am trying to get out of. I do not want to hate my wife or hate my neighbor or hate God. I don't want to run headlong into sin. And here's why. Because Jesus is that much more beautiful than sin. So this is where I think if we're going to wind the conversation down, this is where I think this just has to go in, that it all comes down to motivation. I, in reality, oftentimes, fight the desire to obey Satan, to obey my desire, which is ultimately my flesh. The temptations to satisfy myself in greed, in lust, in fame, in pride, and the gospel and the church is designed to say, no, no, no. Jesus is more beautiful, more glorious, more desirable. And I would say, we had this conversation between the difference Jimmy, and I were joking about the difference between a battle and a war. The war will not be won until you die. But the battle. It is a battle. Every single day you wake up, you will battle to say, I'm either going to pursue the glory and trust in Jesus in the midst of my frailty, or I'm going to give in. Then I will warn you if you try and do that on your own outside the church, more than likely, you're going to fail.

Justin Perdue: Apart from the means that God has given. I know I was having a conversation with some people after church this past Sunday and thinking about just some of the things that we've brought up, the reality of sin, and just how people have been burned by the church. And uh, a lot of that has to do with things we're talking about here. And I, I made the statement,

Jon Moffitt: the lack of frailty,

Justin Perdue: the lack of frailty, a lack of honesty.

Jon Moffitt: You can't be frail.

Justin Perdue: A lack of an understanding of the fallen human condition and the miseries associated with it. And this kind of facade that everybody constructs and all the things we've talked about.

Jimmy Buehler: You can struggle with respectable sins.

Justin Perdue: Sure. So, we were just talking about these things being burned by the church. We're talking about our church and our hopes for it. And I was making a statement that because of this, this understanding of the human heart and the fallen human condition and all these things that I am not surprised, like you said just a moment ago, Jimmy, I'm not surprised when people come to me and confess sins. Even, even some things that are pretty heinous.

Jon Moffitt: Like we've had multiple pastors publicly who have been even recently.

Justin Perdue: Yeah, that's true. And I mean we all as pastors in our respective churches have dealt with things that are heartbreaking. Just because of this theological framework, in those moments when I'm sitting across the table from somebody, and I can see them squirming in their seat, they won't make eye contact with me, and they are convinced that what they are about to say to me is going to absolutely just like burn the village down. In that moment, this kind of theological framework allows me to lean into that person and just say like, brother, sister, I'm sorry. Like this is terrible. This is hard. And sin is real, and yeah, I'm here, we can talk like Christ is your righteousness and instead of ...

Jon Moffitt: the line is long.

Justin Perdue: Yeah, exactly. We say this all the time like you're talking about like if you only knew how bad I am, we say, look, with all due respect, take a number and get in line. You are just like the rest of us, and so we're not. Our posture in that moment is not to like recoil and push away from the table in horror. It's to lean in and love and come alongside and have that honest conversation.

Jon Moffitt: And not excusing.

Justin Perdue: Not excusing it at all. And honestly, in that moment, that person does not need me or you guys to come in from the top turnbuckle and pile it on. They know it's terrible, they know it's wrong. Well, guys, obviously we're not done here. There's a lot more that we can say in this conversation, and so we're going to do that now. We're going to move over to the members' podcasts. And so if you're interested in participating in that conversation and listening in, we would encourage you to go over to Theocast.org, where you can look into becoming a total access member, where you'll be able to partake of all of the content that we have there for our members. And we look forward to seeing you over there.

Justin Perdue: Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast, we're going to be talking about the darkness and the evil that exists within all of us. The Christian life is often anything but clean. It's messy. It's hard. We're not always on this nice, clean, upward trajectory of ongoing improvement. We're going to talk honestly about that and talk honestly about the fact that it's impossible to navigate the Christian life in this fallen world until we come to grips with who we really are. We're excited to have this conversation, and we hope that it's helpful to you. Stay tuned.

Justin Perdue: Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ, conversations about the Christian life from a reformed perspective. Our hosts today are Jon Moffitt, pastor of Community Bible Church in Springhill, Tennessee. Jimmy Bueller, pastor of Christ Community Church in Willmar, Minnesota, and I'm Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

Justin Perdue: Jon, what are we talking about a day, Bro?

Jon Moffitt: So, I don't want to scare everybody away. Today I think it is going to be very beneficial. But if you, if you walk with us for at least 15 minutes and let us set the platform a little bit.

Justin Perdue: So, you're saying we're coming out of the gates hot.

Jon Moffitt: We're going to come out of the gates a little hot,

Jimmy Buehler: Hot and dark.

Jon Moffitt: But I would say with every man around this table, and, for a lot of the listeners who've walked with us for a long time, you're going to appreciate this conversation.

Justin Perdue: I think so too.

Jon Moffitt: Christianity, in general, is a glorious movement, of course, started by our Savior, Jesus Christ. But there's a confusion when it comes to this movement, and a lot of it is, the precious moments movement where everything seems clean and bright and the status should be always moving up and forward. And it seems white and pure. And then those of us who are pastors who then go behind the door and close it and people then say, my life is not there. Many who listen and hopefully those of you who are new, you will begin to identify with what we are trying to present, which is a very old concept of very old theology. This is nothing new. None of the pastors around this table are going to say, you're not going to believe what we have discovered.

Justin Perdue: That's right.

Jon Moffitt: Unless we've been reading old books and it's rediscovering. Today is more about, and just work with me as, as we unfold this today is more about the dark side of Christianity, the real side of Christianity,

Justin Perdue: The dark side of the Christian life. This is one of those moments where if I was preaching a sermon, I would be like, hey, before the parking lot empties, just hang with me for a minute. This conversation will be like that, maybe.

Jon Moffitt: Yeah. Grease stains are real.

Justin Perdue: They are.

Jon Moffitt: And, I would say this isn't because I've experienced this as a pastor, which is true. I grew up in a pastor's home. I've been a pastor for, well over going over 15 years. And from my own personal life, the Christian life is not bright, and it's not clean, and it's not pure. The hope is. The final state is absolutely,

Justin Perdue: and Christ is.

Jon Moffitt: And absolutely, and our joy, which is just placed in that. So today is more of, I would say, a reality check. Let's if we're all willing for everyone who's listening to us in your car and your headphones, washing dishes, walking, mowing the lawn, if you were to say and evaluate your life, you would say, okay, yes, if we're going to be completely honest, and this isn't going to be broadcast across social media, the Christian life is very much an uphill climb that is muddy, dirty, and grimy. And what do we do? How do you evaluate that from the sense of all of these promises being cleansed, being new? I think Paul sets us up for this concept of I hate what I do and the things that I want to do I'm not doing them, oh, wretched men than I am. And does Paul stop there? No, there is hope. And yet there is reality. So, today's podcast is how do you marry the two of those and then move forward.

Justin Perdue: And before we even jump into the messy piece again, the hope is what allows us to stare the reality in the face and call it what it is. And say, okay, yeah, we're going to pull back the curtains of our lives, and we're going to talk about it honestly. Because of Christ, we actually can have this conversation.

Jon Moffitt: I think it's impossible. And that's a very bold statement. I understand that.

Justin Perdue: it's a strong word.

Jon Moffitt: I think it's almost impossible to move forward and truly experience rest until you are willing to admit the actual state that you're in.

Justin Perdue: Could not agree more. Right.

Jimmy Buehler: Yeah. So, I don't know if you guys have ever like shared bad news with somebody. I'm sure you have. But the idea of, you wouldn't believe what just happened. I just want you to know right away that everybody's okay. But and then you go on to share about some tragic thing or whatever. And, and really that's what we're trying to talk about today is we want to talk about the dark side of the Christian life and the Christian heart.

Justin Perdue: and the Christian experience.

Jon Moffitt: But most people don't want to talk about it.

Jimmy Buehler: No, but we're doing it against the backdrop of the hope of the gospel where it's like, no, the good news is here. Right? Everybody, you're okay. Everybody's okay. To go on that analogy, but here's some tragic reality.

Justin Perdue: So, I'm going to do this at the risk of sounding shameless. The tagline for our church Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville is imperfect people, perfect savior. And so, what we're talking about right now is that reality that we are far from perfect. And we're going to be talking about that, and we can talk about it because we are all looking to, and pointing one another to, the Perfect One, who is our righteousness, who is the ground of our assurance. And so now let's be real.

Jon Moffitt: So, I would say in the podcast, we try and ground ourselves. by reading through a confession. For instance, a lot of, some of you that may be drawn to the Westminster Confession around this table, our churches confess the 1689 London Baptist Confession. And in those confessions, you are faced with some hard realities.

Justin Perdue: Yeah, you are.

Jon Moffitt: And the realities in that is that even though Jesus Christ has washed your sins, he's cleansed you, he has come to live within you. You have been grafted into Christ, right? This is the glorious, the truth of our baptism. We're grafted into Christ. He has given us a new heart, a new desire.

Justin Perdue: And a new identity.

Jon Moffitt: And then you wake up the next morning and say, why am I still angry?

Jimmy Buehler: Why do I still feel like this?

Jon Moffitt: Right? Why am I still sad? Why am I mad?

Jimmy Buehler: Why do I yell at my kid?

Jon Moffitt: And so, what happens is that leads you to great despair. So, we evaluate our life and say, I should be this way, and I'm not. Something's either, I'm not saved, or something's broken.

Justin Perdue: That's right.

Jon Moffitt: I don't know what your guys' experience is, but many, many years of my life, I woke up and went, I have to continue to fake because I am not like everybody else I see at church. I'm not like them. I'm broken because they show up as if everything is fine. I show up and go, nothing is fine. Everything is wrong. Has that been your experience?

Jimmy Buehler: Yeah, absolutely. I remember having conversations with people and thinking they're talking like this, and they are, they're praying this way, and they appear this way on the outside, but something within me feels very off-center. I'm not feeling the way that they're feeling by what they're saying.

Justin Perdue: But what is said not by their actions.

Jimmy Buehler: That's right. I mean still to this day when I see somebody, and here’s just a glimpse into the wickedness of my own heart, when I see somebody, doing a pious act, if you will, my first thought is not to rejoice and that the Spirit of God is moving within them. My first thought is, why don't I do that, man, I should. And, and to use that word, you said it, I think Justin, you said it earlier, the "should" word, this "should" word can be so dangerous in the Christian life.

Jon Moffitt: So, there's, there's a darkness. I appreciate men like Luther, and even Calvin, who understand the darkness of the heart. I've been around enough, I grew up in a pastor's home, my wife grew up in a pastor's home. Unfortunately, we have seen men who are faithful and men who are not. We've seen a lot of pain. And I remember the first time I read the London Baptist Confession, chapter 5.5\. It made my heart feel so safe because I understood there wasn't something wrong with me; there was something wrong with this world that Christ would make right. Let me just read this real quick. I think it's helpful. "The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does not often, does oftentimes leave for a season his own children." Please note he is speaking of regenerate...

Justin Perdue: speaking of believers

Jon Moffitt: people who belonged to Him.

Justin Perdue: Who have been adopted by God.

Jon Moffitt: Christians, the Spirit lives within them. Okay. So, we're talking about new creation, people. "His own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts to chastise them for their former sins or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their own hearts that they may be humbled and raised to them a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Him." I exploded with joy to know that my gracious Father, at times, exposes to me the absolute frailty and deceitfulness of my own flesh. So that I will turn in desperation saying, Father, if without you, I would be, I would be deserving and am deserving of hell. So those of you who say, and wake up and say, I don't deserve God's love, yes, you're right. It's true.

Justin Perdue: And it's actually worse than you ever imagined.

Jon Moffitt: That's right. The mirror is foggy at the moment.

Jimmy Buehler: I believe John Newton, who said, I'm a mystery unto myself. A heap of inconsistency. Because I don't know about you, but I can go through particular weeks. You know you feel pretty good. Like, Hey, I'm, and I'm using air quotes. My sin doesn't feel that bad. And so, you can get really confident in yourself and then all of a sudden, that can change on a dime. That can change in a moment.

Jon Moffitt: when someone doesn't use a blinker.

Jimmy Buehler: Right. You're exactly right. Yeah. And it just, we as people are so inconsistent. I've always loved the word fickle. We are like the fickleness of the human heart. I was talking about this the other day with somebody where the language of, it's okay, God knows your heart in that. That's what terrifies me. That's what terrifies me is that God knows my heart because I just have a little glimpse of my heart, and I can see the wickedness there. God sees all the way to the bottom.

Jon Moffitt: Yeah. Now let's call your wife.

Jimmy Buehler: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There you go. Let's get her on.

Justin Perdue: That's right. Well, not only do we love to ground ourselves in the confessions, obviously, we'd love to ground ourselves in scripture. So, to talk about, like you just alluded to, Jimmy, God sees down to the bottom. Well, what does God say about our hearts? Think about Genesis chapter six, where God saw that the thoughts and the inclinations of man's heart were only evil continually. That describes all of us,

Jimmy Buehler: Put that on a Coffee Cup,

Justin Perdue: Right? That's not going to be slapped up on the refrigerator.

Jon Moffitt: Just read Noah's life.

Justin Perdue: and there are no precious moments figurines with those verses on them.

Jon Moffitt: Hahaha. Absolutely not.

Jimmy Buehler: Jeremiah 17:9 the heart is desperately sick. Who can understand it? Answer. No one. Romans 3:9-20 I think it's probably familiar to many where Paul sites, the Psalms and Isaiah, and just to make the point that there is no one who does good. There's no one who's righteous. No one who seeks after God, right? No, not even one, like not even one, Paul?

Jon Moffitt: And even James is talking to the believer. And whose he warning against? He's warning against Satan, who can come in and absolutely deceive you because you're that vulnerable.

Justin Perdue: You are that vulnerable.

Jon Moffitt: You're that easy to deceive.

Justin Perdue: Absolutely. And then, of course, it's already been referenced once today. Romans Chapter Seven, Galatians chapter five, where we are told by the Apostle Paul that the internal war between the Spirit, our inner man, and the flesh is real to where we find ourselves not doing the things we want to do. And then doing the things that we don't want to do, which as you already said, Jon, it leads him to scream out, to cry out wretched man that I am, who's going to rescue me? And thanks be to God for Jesus Christ. But I know that we're three pastors sitting around this table right now. And as we've spent time together recently, we're talking about things that we've seen in the church.

Jon Moffitt: Which led to this podcast.

Justin Perdue: Exactly. It led to this podcast. We've talked about even our own, our own hearts. My goodness, one of the things that I think we're all very convicted about is never just as pastors, it's like less anybody ever misunderstands. We do not have it all together. There are many guys, sadly, in ministry that have built their ministry on a public persona of having it all together.

Jimmy Buehler: Strength.

Justin Perdue: Strengths. Oh yeah. Like the pastor's marriage is always doing well that he's not having a rough season if I ask him how he's doing.

Jon Moffitt: He supposed to be on top of his game.

Justin Perdue: He's not stumbling, he's not struggling. He's certainly not questioning anything. His affections are where they need to be and whatever.

Jimmy Buehler: I remember watching, I think it was some sort of documentary on a large megachurch pastor. It was from a secular worldview. They were fascinated by the success and the growth of this church and the size of this church. And that's neither here nor there. That's not the point. But the pastor was speaking to the reporter and one of the things that he said, dare I say, haunts me to this day because he says, I know that I'm not allowed to have an off day spiritually. I remember watching that as a young pastor and that it was crushing because I had one yesterday or today, and I know I'm going to have one next week.

Justin Perdue: Well, I know I've had because we all can buy into the lie. And this is true for the Christian, this is true for the pastor, that we should have it all together. That we should be better by now. So there, I can't tell you, there have been a number of Sunday mornings in the last several years as I've been the lead pastor of CBC where my sin and my frailty becomes incredibly apparent on Sunday morning, and I'm wrestling with my own frame, and I'm wrestling with the wickedness and the corruption that still is in me and the enemy immediately just jumps all over me. How in the world are you fit to now go and preach God's word and Shepherd God's people when you are such a train wreck?

Jon Moffitt: I had that. I've been preaching for a long time in a very different context, and I would say in the last two years, why no, even maybe in the last five years in a church where we do take communion every week, there's a side of me that the only reason I can climb into the pulpit is knowing that the Gospel truth of the table will be ministered to me, so I come to the pulpit as a congregant knowing that at the end we will be feasting on Christ and trusting in that means. And that isn't to say that I don't get into the pulpit prepared. But there is never a moment that the more I look at Christ and the more the gospel becomes a mirror to my own life, and I look into that mirror, and I am so horrified by my sin that I come in, and I look down upon those who are sitting down in a chair. I look at them and go, do we not need Christ?

Justin Perdue: Do we? We, we have come in desperate need of what only Jesus can provide. All of us.

Jimmy Buehler: I think a lot of what we said, most people are going to be able to recognize that. Relate to that. They see that they struggle with sin. They see the wickedness of their own heart and, in many respects, some more, some less. But I guess I'm curious, how do you think the average Christian, what are some ways that you think the average Christian seeks to deal with this?

Jon Moffitt: Yeah, this is tough. I, if you're new to Theocast, if this might be episode one. You're going, first of all, this is too heavy. Guys, relax, and I agree. I mean if you could go have lunch with us, you would laugh. We have laughed so hard today, and there's this side of it where, because the three of us understand our reality, we don't take ourselves seriously. You can't take yourself too seriously. No, you can't. It's almost like when you're playing a junkyard ball, right? You're playing junk or basketball, and pro shows up, you're like, I'm not going to even. We’re going to just laugh and have a good time.

Justin Perdue: Sometimes over nineties R&B.

Jimmy Buehler: That's right. Absolutely.

Justin Perdue: You've got to give the people what they want.

Jimmy Buehler: Should be our new intro music.

Jon Moffitt: I like our intro music, man. To your question, Jimmy, I would say the hardest part of this whole conversation is you have to admit you're not who you think you are. You're not who you're presenting yourself to be. You know who you are. I'll take that back. You know who you are, you're just not who you present yourself to be, and especially not on Instagram or Facebook.

Justin Perdue: And you've gotta be willing to talk in public like you think in private.

Jon Moffitt: Like, what's the borderline of dirty laundry?

Jimmy Buehler: That's true. We’re not saying throw discretion and discernment out the window and just like relationally throw up all over people. That's not what we're saying.

Jon Moffitt: Is it more a posture than a conversation?

Justin Perdue: A posture, then a conversation? I think so. I think that's fair. Like I, I'm wanting to process that on the fly, but I think that's a fair way to put it.

Jimmy Buehler: You don't, you don't jump into a conversation, hey, I'm Jimmy. What's your name? What's your worst sin when you're going to stop? You don't jump into that. However, I think a lot of times I, myself; I operate in almost this cognitive dissonance where I have this. I know who I am. I know what I'm presenting to you. I'm wondering what your perception of me is, and particularly, and my wife may giggle at this if she, dares to listen, that when she's there, and I'm meeting somebody, it's always, well, I know who I am, I know I'm presenting, my wife really knows who I am. So, there's this constant dissonance, and I know that as Christians, a lot of times, we try to mask that. We try to cover that up. Or what we try to do is we try to discipline ourselves out of it. And so, what we say is, okay, I sinned in this way. I sinned x, y, z today, but tomorrow I'm going to do ABC of the Christian life, and that's going to be a little bit of offset to silence that inner voice. You know the Law working on me.

Jon Moffitt: I recently walked into a movie theater with my children to watch a new Marvel movie. What fascinated me about the experience, I sat back for a moment because we got the early enough, what fascinated me is no one there postures themselves as somebody. We're all there to receive new information and experience as recipients. So, I never, there was never like at the person next to me in front of me or behind me, I never felt like I needed to do anything or to prove to them or to lobby. We were there to all receive what we had paid for. But when you walk into the church, that is not the case. There is posturing; there is lobbying, there is presentation, positioning. You have to position yourself as acceptable and what the gospel does, and if you continue to listen to Theocast, what the gospel does, the Law absolutely says stop posturing.

Jimmy Buehler: Because it crushes you.

Jon Moffitt: You are here to observe that you are unworthy. That's right. You are here to observe that there is one who is perfect. There's one who obeyed. There was one who is worthy, and you are not that one.

Jimmy Buehler: Go ask Isaiah how posturing in Isaiah 6 went.

Justin Perdue: Put the coal on my lips. That's right.

Jimmy Buehler: Woe is me. Woe is me.

Justin Perdue: And then when you truly hear the Law of God read over you, you sit properly, by the way.

Jon Moffitt: You would never try to achieve it properly.

Justin Perdue: No, it'd be, it'd be insane. But honestly, we're not talking; again, this goes to my comment earlier, well, God knows your heart.

Jimmy Buehler: Exactly. That's the problem.

Justin Perdue: The Law confronts that. It does that. I do know your heart, and I mean that's the sermon on the mount. You have heard it said, do not murder and almost everybody, if not everybody listening to this podcast, can say, yeah, good. I didn't do that.

Jon Moffitt: If you've ever been angry at anyone, that is equated to murder. Whether you accept it or not, that's reality.

Justin Perdue: And all Christ is doing is, we're all saying in that moment is he is preaching and applying the Law to the heart as it was always intended to be. Preached and applied.

Jon Moffitt: I think that's the weight that Christians feel that is often I think shifted or moved. I think it needs to remain. Otherwise, the gospel doesn't make any sense. Like when you walk in, and you go, I am an epic failure. Everything I think I should be; I am not. And I want to say, Yes, Agree. So, am I right? This is why Jesus says that he is absolutely the only way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to him except through what? No one can come to the Father except through him.

Jimmy Buehler: Exactly. That's right.

Justin Perdue: And I couldn't agree more about the Law. The problem in many cases is that the Law has been so relativized and dumbed down that we have diluted ourselves into thinking that we can keep it. And I agree that that first use of the Law if we're talking about how it's been understood historically theologically, that first use of the Law, which is to show us our sin and drive us to the savior, that needs to be heralded to the redeemed every single Lord's Day. So that we do feel the weight of the Law and we do understand I've got no shot. Like I am absolutely wrecked, ruined, and bankrupt before a holy God as I look at his requirements and as I assess my life, thank God for Jesus. And then, of course, we can talk about how we live as believers, Third use of the Law. And I think a lot of times that confusion about, between the Law and the gospel certainly, but even that first and that third use, it presents all kinds of bad things in the church and in the life of the Christian.

Jon Moffitt: I think this is why even if you had a congregant or a friend come to you and say, I've been reading Deuteronomy, and it's rough, very rough. I don't understand blood and this and that. And there's a side of me that goes, are you feeling it’s kind of difficult or like, yeah, there's so much. Right? Right! And that's not even a fraction of what God requires. Yeah. Like I would say that's entry-level and they would go, that's insane. Alright. You need to understand what God requires. Not One human has come one step close to it, and then Christ comes on the scene. And it wasn't even a thought. It's like, no, I obey the Father. That's what I, that's what I do.

Justin Perdue: Yes. So, where we've gotten is to the place of, we're talking about the total depravity of man. We're not talking about the utter depravity, and this is important. This is very, very important. It's an important distinction where the utter depravity of man would say, it's just completely lawless. It's anarchy.

Jimmy Buehler: We're as bad as we could ever be. That's not what we're saying.

Justin Perdue: That is not, don't hear what we're not saying. What we're talking about total depravity, the theological term noetic effects of sin. It's woven throughout all of your soul, all of your mind, all of your personhood. But again, to get to that question, the idea of what do we do? How have Christians today, think of just the modern church scene today, and we'll speak to the American church because that's where we are. The ways that we've tried to combat that. And so, Luther, he talked about the idea of, I went to the monastery. I'm, I'm, I'm extremely paraphrasing here. I went to the monastery, but that old rascal speaking of himself came with me. And so, no Protestant today is begging to go to the monastery. But I think what we do is we build these kinds of spiritual monasteries. And the way we do that is we try to spiritually discipline ourselves out. And it's like, it's not that we do that apart from Christ, but what I think happens is that Christ is in the background. Christ becomes the taskmaster of, complete these disciplines, do these tasks, and you will have, kind of the Christian life that I designed you to have.

Jon Moffitt: This is Galatians three when Paul says, wait, wait, wait a minute. How did you begin by the Spirit was it works for the flesh because no, it was by preaching of the gospel that brings forth faith by the Spirit? It's by the work of the Spirit. And then later on in Colossians, he says, you're doing all of these works by the flesh to try and control the flesh, and they're not working right now listen to be fair, and to be clear, we're not throwing out common sense. We're also not throwing out, Listen, be wise. But it's very clear in Paul and in Christ that there are means by which God uses to grow and strengthen us and to protect us. And unfortunately, we have transitioned those, as Jimmy said, into disciplines. If I am quiet, if I do this, if I eat this way, sleep this way, journal this way, read this way. Therefore, I'll be a better Christian.

Justin Perdue: That's right. And even think to use the language of new creation. Oftentimes we think about being a new creation, meaning that I'm doing all of that stuff. Like, oh, I'm a new creation. Therefore, that means that my life looks like a, b, c, d, progression. It's that continual upward trajectory. It's an ongoing improvement, all of that kind of stuff. It's linear, it's nice, it's clean, it's tidy. Because I'm a new creation in Christ Jesus, and that is not the presentation of the New Testament. Another disclaimer that I think we can make as we've talked about this, we're not excusing sin, we're not excusing ridiculous behavior in all of this. And even with respect to pastors, we’ve talked about our own hearts, as we've sat around this table, there are such things as elder qualifications, we're not disputing any of them.

Jon Moffitt: And every, everyone around the mic, the moment I feel like one of you or are in myself and disqualified, we should call it out.

Justin Perdue: Absolutely. We should. So, don't misunderstand us in anything that we're saying. And at the same time, we're talking about the fact that the human heart is desperately sick and that we, as we've just talked about with total depravity, every aspect, our person has been corrupted and tainted by sin.

Jimmy Buehler: And I would add to that, that we're not, we're not seeking to excuse sin at all. No, no, nobody's saying that. But what we are saying is, but we're not surprised by it. Not at all. No. So when I have someone before me confessing something, I remember confessing sin to somebody, and I just said, I feel like this is weird. And that person just looked at me and just said, well, sin is weird. It just kind of brought that weight of lightness. Where I mean we were talking about this earlier on John's porch of you go in the Old Testament man, there's some weird stuff. Stuff on Noah. It's some rough reading.

Jon Moffitt: Okay. The fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Just go read their history. You're going to walk away with; you're gonna need a drink of water.

Justin Perdue: How many people do that are like, Hey, I just sold off my wife.

Jimmy Buehler: Well, I know. We all just want to be like father Abraham, and this is not the slam Abraham, but it's like, man, I know many people in my church who have done better than Abraham when it comes to their marriage or whatever.

Jon Moffitt: I've never cheated on my wife to be clear.

Jimmy Buehler: God be praised.

Jon Moffitt: I've never lied about my wife, and no one is ever going to call me the Father of the faith. Which should be a glory to God and not to Abraham. I think there's a side of it to be clear, and in the past, Theocast has been accused of being antinomian. For those of you who don't know, that word means anti-law, we're against holiness or against the laws of God. And I want to explain something to you. There's a difference between acknowledging the frailty of man. I will tell you this, if tomorrow I could love my wife, love God and love my neighbor with all of my heart without fail, I promise you my life would be better if I didn't do that.

Justin Perdue: That sounds amazing.

Jon Moffitt: So please know that that is not a reality that I am trying to get out of. I do not want to hate my wife or hate my neighbor or hate God. I don't want to run headlong into sin. And here's why. Because Jesus is that much more beautiful than sin. So this is where I think if we're going to wind the conversation down, this is where I think this just has to go in, that it all comes down to motivation. I, in reality, oftentimes, fight the desire to obey Satan, to obey my desire, which is ultimately my flesh. The temptations to satisfy myself in greed, in lust, in fame, in pride, and the gospel and the church is designed to say, no, no, no. Jesus is more beautiful, more glorious, more desirable. And I would say, we had this conversation between the difference Jimmy, and I were joking about the difference between a battle and a war. The war will not be won until you die. But the battle. It is a battle. Every single day you wake up, you will battle to say, I'm either going to pursue the glory and trust in Jesus in the midst of my frailty, or I'm going to give in. Then I will warn you if you try and do that on your own outside the church, more than likely, you're going to fail.

Justin Perdue: Apart from the means that God has given. I know I was having a conversation with some people after church this past Sunday and thinking about just some of the things that we've brought up, the reality of sin, and just how people have been burned by the church. And uh, a lot of that has to do with things we're talking about here. And I, I made the statement,

Jon Moffitt: the lack of frailty,

Justin Perdue: the lack of frailty, a lack of honesty.

Jon Moffitt: You can't be frail.

Justin Perdue: A lack of an understanding of the fallen human condition and the miseries associated with it. And this kind of facade that everybody constructs and all the things we've talked about.

Jimmy Buehler: You can struggle with respectable sins.

Justin Perdue: Sure. So, we were just talking about these things being burned by the church. We're talking about our church and our hopes for it. And I was making a statement that because of this, this understanding of the human heart and the fallen human condition and all these things that I am not surprised, like you said just a moment ago, Jimmy, I'm not surprised when people come to me and confess sins. Even, even some things that are pretty heinous.

Jon Moffitt: Like we've had multiple pastors publicly who have been even recently.

Justin Perdue: Yeah, that's true. And I mean we all as pastors in our respective churches have dealt with things that are heartbreaking. Just because of this theological framework, in those moments when I'm sitting across the table from somebody, and I can see them squirming in their seat, they won't make eye contact with me, and they are convinced that what they are about to say to me is going to absolutely just like burn the village down. In that moment, this kind of theological framework allows me to lean into that person and just say like, brother, sister, I'm sorry. Like this is terrible. This is hard. And sin is real, and yeah, I'm here, we can talk like Christ is your righteousness and instead of ...

Jon Moffitt: the line is long.

Justin Perdue: Yeah, exactly. We say this all the time like you're talking about like if you only knew how bad I am, we say, look, with all due respect, take a number and get in line. You are just like the rest of us, and so we're not. Our posture in that moment is not to like recoil and push away from the table in horror. It's to lean in and love and come alongside and have that honest conversation.

Jon Moffitt: And not excusing.

Justin Perdue: Not excusing it at all. And honestly, in that moment, that person does not need me or you guys to come in from the top turnbuckle and pile it on. They know it's terrible, they know it's wrong. Well, guys, obviously we're not done here. There's a lot more that we can say in this conversation, and so we're going to do that now. We're going to move over to the members' podcasts. And so if you're interested in participating in that conversation and listening in, we would encourage you to go over to Theocast.org, where you can look into becoming a total access member, where you'll be able to partake of all of the content that we have there for our members. And we look forward to seeing you over there.

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